Here is a comparison of two girls I briefly dated.
Girl A
- occasionally tossed out five dollar words like “antinomian”
- never spoke about her job in detail or hinted that she liked it
- talked more than once about the school she attended and about her father’s accomplishments
- i paid for her drinks
- noticed my brand of watch
- smiled a lot
- had artsy photographs hanging on her walls
- on the way to my bedroom the first time she saw a pile of my dirty clothes on the floor and made a face
- skipped foreplay, went straight to gatling gun-style jackhammer sex
- assumed the doggy position unprompted
Girl B
- liked to kiss more than talk
- bought me drinks
- made me dinner with a table setting of wine candles and flowers
- never mentioned her father
- was bilingual
- took pictures with her digital camera and emailed them to me
- on the way to my bedroom the first time she giggled as I carried her
- much foreplay followed by lovemaking in front of a wall-length mirror where we watched ourselves
- was married and hid it from me
- said she loved me
Guess which girl was the six figure corporate lawyer and which was the nanny studying psychology part time at grad school.
I think it’s interesting how much of a girl’s personality and femininity I can predict based on her career.
ANSWER:
A – lawyer.
Lawyers are way too calculating to say they love you after only a short while dating.
The “was married and hid it from me ” part about Girl B reads ambiguously: was she married at the time she was with you, or in the past?
Also, was the nanny foreign (an AuPair) ?
Girls A and B sound like lawyer and nanny, respectively, although some AuPairs, esp. from Eastern Europe, are very ambitious and treat their stint as nannies as a stepping stone toward greater opportunities.
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My guess is that the lawyer is Girl B. I don’t know many married nannies.
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Girl A is the lawyer: noticing the watch is the giveaway.
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I think it’s interesting how much of a girl’s personality and femininity I can predict based on her career.
Probably true in general, but I’d allow for a significant number of exceptions. I know two introverted/feminine women in high pressure careers (a lawyer and a financial this-or-that in NYC) who were steered in those directions by their ambitious upper middle class parents more than by their own personalities.
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a = lawyer. check the signs:
in the lawyer world pedigree / school is important
you paid for her drinks because she saw herself as more “valuable” than you
noticed your brand of watch for the same reason pedigree and school is important
the smile and artsy photos are a facade
she made a face at ur laundry because her house was probably immaculate, which is the sign of a control freak. she had a need to impose her will on her environment, which relates to skipping foreplay and controlling the field during sex, which seemed more a visceral act than an emotional one.
b = nanny
buying you drinks, making you stuff, foreplay, saying she loved you. she mothered you. sex was emotional and she followed her heart. probably saw your festering pile of laundry and skidmarks as “quirky”. sounds like a caregiver.
i could be wrong.
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A: lawyer (hard on the outside but liked being dominated bending on her knees and raising her butt high in the air)
B: Nanny (sweeter, nicer)
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Girl A is the lawyer, naturally. Girl B is the nanny…probably from Poland.
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I think Comment #2 is right – nannies are less likely to be married. The chick lawyers I know are looking to escape their miserable lives – a nanny is more likely to be looking around for signs of respectability and trying to show off her own credentials. People who study psychology are nutty, cerebral twits, too.
The fact that it could go either way though is maybe a sign that careers and femininity don’t actually correlate that well.
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Paying for a man’s drinks is a sign of femininity? The alpha males I’ve dated wouldn’t let me pay for my own drinks, let alone allow me to buy them one. It was a form of “display”, I think, not power-grabbing, as some feminists would say.
The non-alphas borrowed money from me to pay for their drinks and sometimes didn’t pay it back.
The truth is, it’s hard to know how to handle the “who pays” situation. Some men are offended by offers to pay because they think it’s a sign of “feminism”. Others are offended by not receiving an offer because they think it means you’re spoiled.
If a man asks me out, I expect him to pay, for the first date or so, anyway, because it’s the only way I can determine whether he’s romantically interested, or just sees me as a friend. And no, I don’t expect to be taken to expensive restaurants. McDonald’s will do.
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clio, even if you dont intend to pay, offer. if he lets you pay for half, dont go out with him again. it’s really cool when a girl offers to pay, and girls who sit there with an air of self-entitlement looking like post-katrina welfare recipients when the bill comes make me wanna shake the shit outta em.
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Obviously, this post is useless without photos. 🙂
Seriously, girl A is the lawyer, girl B is the nanny. The only fact that should really matter is who makes for the best sex partner. The fact that girl B loved you is highly irrelevant, since sex and love are highly incompatible. Due to the fact that girl A skipped forplay and went for real sex, I suspect that she’s the better sex partner.
And no, I don’t expect to be taken to expensive restaurants. McDonald’s will do.
You must be ugly or a tomboy.
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Hmm. Consensus (i.e. number of dates requested by nice-looking successful men, wolf whistles, etc.) seems to be that I’m not ugly – though past prime, sigh. And certainly not appealing to you because I’m not one of those D-cup drag queen types that you prefer – I think Pam Anderson looks like a drag queen.
And I’m not a tomboy, either.
It’s been years since I’ve met men so poor that they had to take me to McDonald’s (or its equivalent), but I mentioned it as a throwaway example to say that the meal doesn’t have to be expensive. On the other hand, I’m very much put off by men who have money but are cheap (or insanely extravagant – that’s not appealing either). Or who choose lousy places to eat because they just don’t care about food.
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so whats the answer?
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If a man asks me out, I expect him to pay, for the first date or so, anyway, because it’s the only way I can determine whether he’s romantically interested, or just sees me as a friend. And no, I don’t expect to be taken to expensive restaurants. McDonald’s will do.
Years ago I dated a woman who took the issue a wee bit too far. She liked to go to reasonably decent restaurants and always expected me to pay. Okay, I was able to deal with that. While at the nice restaurants she frequently ordered the more expensive items on the menus, lots of lobster and filet mignon. This was a bit more annoying, but I would have been able to tolerate it except for one more thing: she would never eat more than a tiny amount, leaving most of her expensive meal untouched. That I just couldn’t tolerate, and even though she was nice in most other respects I pulled the plug on the relationship after a few months.
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As far as who pays: most of communication is non-verbal, so a lot depends on the girl’s attitude. When I dated, I was turned off both by a look of entitlement in that I should pay, as I was by a pushy insistence that we split or she pays. Either attitude ruins vibes.
But when my date came across as though she enjoyed my company and made gestures of appreciation when I did pay (my default position), all was good. If a girl likes a guy, she will usually buy him thoughtful little presentsw anyway, so the dollar equasion kind of evens out.
I never took girls at the early stage of dating to expensive places. This screened out girls who were out for free meals and helped us both gauge our attraction levels. If we had good chemistry, either Starbucks or a quaint (but clean) dive worked out well.
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My dad’s one contribution to my dating life — an answer to the who pays dilema. Once you get the check, wait for them to offer to pay. Look at them expectantly if they don’t do offer automatically. A few seconds and they’ll catch on. When they pull out their wallet say, “No, don’t worry I’ve got it this. You can pay next time.”
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I’ve never met a [female] lawyer that possessed any form of domestic skill or nurturing inclination whatsoever, as such their children are invariably raised by nannies. In fact, they are the least feminine of the professional women I know, second only to MBA graduates. They tend to be obsessive status seekers, attending law school as proxy for finishing school. Many don’t care to practice law at all, as their education is meant to lend them credibility for executive positions in prestigious non-profits. They are voracious in the sack and make excellent affair material or one-night stands. They are best suited for LTRs and marriage with easily manipulated beta males but alphas pump and dump.
The man always pays the first few dates so it behooves all men to be judicious with their initial spending so as not to signal with money game, which is often crass and makes you vulnerable to gold-diggers.
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nullp0inter, if a man did that to me, I would assume that he wasn’t interested in anything but friendship. And I’d treat him that way from that moment on.
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nullp0inter – that’s awful. Why would he tell you that? Because he didn’t want you to catch STDs?
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This is very much on-topic and worth reading. Funny, too.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGE0YzE5OWI4NWVlYWZjMDMzZTRjMzZlM2FjMGFmZjM=
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…. or just go corner.nationalreview.com and scroll down to the 10/03 03:25 PM posting.
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Alias Clio, I didn’t know you were being facetious, and I’ve always presumed that any girl that accepts a date to McDonalds has really low standards, a poor girl that dates poor guys, ugly or is tomboyish. Seriously, what kind of girl with any self-respect would an accept a date to a place as lowly as McDonalds or Ruby Tuesday?
BTW, just because you don’t look like a “drag queen” doesn’t mean that you’re not beautiful. It just means that I don’t think that you’re sexually attractive to *me*. Although, I wonder what’s a greater insult, being told that you’re “ugly and tomboyish” or that you’re sexually unattractive.
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Mr Alexander, I suspect you would find Grace Kelly or Audrey Hepburn at the peak of their beauty sexually unattractive (willowy and small-busted), so I would at least suppose that I’m in good company vis-a-vis your lack of interest!
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I’ve never met a [female] lawyer that possessed any form of domestic skill or nurturing inclination whatsoever, as such their children are invariably raised by nannies.
Interestingly, the Wellesley Queen who I’ve been posting about at Half Sigma recently was considering becoming a lawyer and a politician. Yet, she always loved children, and she was one of those involved babysitters who engages with the children. She wanted to have her kids before she turns thirty, and she was willing to abort her career so she could stay at home with her kids too. Plus she was always interesting in cooking and decorating, and we spent many hours gazing through furniture catalogues. Either she’s atypical, or her desire to become a WASP is controlling influencing her career plans.
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Yes, Alias, everybody knows Marilyn Monroe is hotter. 🙂
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i dunno, DA… Audrey Hepburn was quite a hottie.
But different style from Marilyn Monroe. I like them both, but I think Hepburn had more of an outwardly innocent / inwardly evil bent.
as for which is which. its definitely tough to say. i’m interested to see what Roissy’s answer is. Of course, stereotypically its easy, A is Lawyer, B is Nanny… but I dunno. Sometimes you can find a lawyer girl type who can be type B.
Take for instance, Nanny as type A. The ‘dirty look’ at the floor gives me pause. She already cleans up for other people’s kids, she probably doesn’t want to pick up after a boyfriend / man, etc. A few bits (the big words, arty photos) are put on to say that the Nanny-ness is not all she is, that she is knowledgeable and arty, thus not sterotype. However, does she give any inclination to being arty herself, such as photography… if not, then these are probably hollow instances.
Its a tough call. So I don’t know if I can make a choice. But my nagging image of the nanny and dirty clothes is going to make me say the opposite and say nanny = a, lawyer = b.
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Wow, some of you men have not helpful when it comes to dating and paying. Being a reader of this blog, you should know better.
Someone said “the man always pays the first few dates.” Someone else said “only a loser girl accept a date to McDonalds.”
If you want to condition women to believe they are more valuable than you, and/or that you are begging for whatever crumbs of sexual attention they will throw your way, by all means shower resources and attention on a woman you barely know for the first date. She hasn’t *earned* these from you yet. Oh, and her vagina doesn’t count for value. Vaginas are a dime a dozen.
Guys, always always always use the 3 C’s rule for AT LEAST the first few dates — Cheap, Convenient (for you) and Conversation.
Cheap. I like to take girls on errands I’m already doing anyway. Having her help me shop for something is good. Going to a free gallery or the park is also good. Never pay for a meal unless it’s super cheap (like McDonalds). Ruby Tuesdays is way too high end for a first meetup.
Convenient. Make sure the date is convenient and easy for you. Have her meet you in your neighborhood at a time that works for you.
Conversation. Make sure the activity provides fodder for lots of conversation. Movies or other activities where you don’t talk are very bad. Steer clear of religion, politics, work or anything logical. No man *ever* talked his way logically into a girl’s pants. Keep it emotional — cold read her personality, tell her she must be the youngest child in her family, whatever. Never argue – change the subject instead.
Until I figured this out, I would wine and dine women and never figure out why my sperm retention was still in the red zone. Society is 100% wrong when it comes to bedding women. Listen to Roissy, and learn.
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Audrey Hepburn did not appear inwardly evil at all. Does every traditional woman need to have her history revised so that she acquires a hip, modern edge?
Marilyn’s the wrong answer too. If we’re talking voluptuous bombshells, obviously that’s Sophia Loren. Just better looking, plus not dopey.
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well.. evil was the wrong word. my apologies. i certainly didn’t mean like “kick a bum in the street”, “nuke someone”, or even probably “eat the last cookie.”
i guess i meant, marilyn is a pin-up type girl. audrey hepburn wasn’t, at least in those context. take it from the madonna stand point. madonna wanted to be marilyn, she didn’t want to be audrey. the best show of this was i think when she [madonna] played in dick tracy.
i think… a bedroom feisty-ness, more private playfulness i suppose.
however, i’ve got to say that i hated her in those GAP black pants commercials. i know its a video cut taken from something else she did… but it was total “white-girl-got-no-rhythm”, “will-poke-me-to-death-with-those-elbows-and-knees” moment.
i’m just saying.
and i may have been wrong about who was who… but it appears that roissy hinges this upon the fact that she said she loved him, not really anything else.
and agnostic:
women who grill big slabs of steak [sophia loren] are a-okay in my book:
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her in the GAP commercials = audrey hepburn.
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Audrey Hepburn was a very fine dancer. If she looked awkward in that film clip, that’s because it’s from a movie in which she played an intellectual, awkward young woman, who hangs out in “beatnik” cafes and gets tricked into becoming a fashion model (Funny Face).
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you should write a post on the ‘i love you’ question. since the collapse in abstinince before marriage many girls have latched on to these words as a kind of last grasp for commitment, and often refuse sex without hearing them. i’m sure you have an interesting take on this. i usually just mumble it back. how do alphas respond to an ‘i love you’ demand before sex?
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how do alphas respond to an ‘i love you’ demand before sex
I think that if you’re at a point where ‘demands’ are made before sex, then you’re already losing. It sounds like there are bad vibes.
Thinking out loud here, I think that an “I love you” from a guy has more gravity than it does grom a girl. With women, in the early stages of the relationship, those words are more of an expression of her mood than a conscious emotional commitment to the guy. When she says those words, just go with the flow, and say somethign ‘deep’, or corny, or sweet, depending on the situation (delivery is what matters, not the actual words), but don’t actually say “I love you”
That’s because ILY means a lot more coming from a man. When he says these words, it signals, on the emotional level, a commitment to the girl, a ‘forsake all others’ surrender, etc. And the girl is not there yet. When a man says ILY first, or parrots it back to the girl when she says it in the early dating ohase, he signals weakness, lack of emotional self-contro, or desperation.
This holds true both when you’re just trying to date this girl briefly, and when you feel like she’s the one.
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[…] The Lawyer Vs the Nanny Here is a comparison of two girls I briefly dated. Girl A […]
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ah, well, thanks clio. my sister was the one who watched those movies, I didn’t.
of course, I was just saying the clip was ‘awkward.’ I expect that due to the era she was from, she was well-versed in certain dance skills.
cheers.
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some perceptive answers here from the commenters. well done people. lemmonex, yes, noticing the watch was a dead giveaway.
re: dating and paying. azuzuru said it well.
re: saying ‘i love you’. pa nailed it. the guy should never say it first. when the girl does finally say it, he should answer her evasively with something like ‘i know’ or ‘that’s awesome!’. he should only say ILY after she has completely fallen for him and when she least expects it. the power of the man saying ILY flows from the perception that she has had to work hard to squeeze it out of him. a woman wants a challenge.
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df:
In fact, they are the least feminine of the professional women I know, second only to MBA graduates.
i have a theory that female business school and law school grads have more circulating testosterone than the average woman.
my time with them conforms to your observations.
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