I had this friend who was a money-chasing alpha in the financial sector. He kept a framed crisp dollar bill and a magazine photo of a random hot blonde hung side by side on the wall in his room. If you asked him why, he’d say, pointing to the girl and then the dollar, “She’s there to remind me why I’m working 15 hour days earning THAT.”
He viewed life like it was a giant business transaction, which means he was closer to the truth than all of history’s great philosophers. He’d usually start off making a point by saying:
“I’ve been in the business 5 YEARS and lemme tell you…”
Ocassionally he was in the business 10 years, but when he got on a roll he was too funny to correct.
In his view, love was the same as stocks; you bought low when she was still young and more interested in you than 401Ks, held on while her stock (firm ass) continued to pay good dividends, and sold high when her P/E ratio began to droop and you could afford to diversify in high risk international stocks and start-ups.
“You gotta remember to allocate your resources! Don’t invest everything in one pussy.”
Whenever conversation got around to cars, he would always give us this dire warning: “Don’t buy a new car, it’s a depreciating asset!”
“Depreciating asset!” “Depreciating asset!”
Then his former friend-turned-cutthroat-enemy coworker bought a new BMW and one month later he was pulling out of the dealership in a brand new SUV, telling us he could blow red lights now because he got the optional invisibility package.
His idea of romance was to buy one giant scented candle and put it on a cutting board in the middle of the living room.
“I got some candles for the ladies.”
Money, girls, work, status, beer funnels.
I don’t think I’ve met a happier person than him.
I’ve heard a lot of folks come down pretty hard on the old, “You’ll lose money chasing girls but you’ll never lose girls chasing money,” economic view of the importance of sex in life. Is this post an affirmation?
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I think what’s really key is that he has a grasp on who he is and how he values life/people/money etc. Regardless if you agree with his mantra you have to admire his conviction of his beliefs, because living your life the way you want to live it has to be one, if not the most, satisfying things that a human can accomplish. Bravo!
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so the insatiable need to bang many, many girls never fades? it’s never replaced by the desire for one particular girl?
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I agree with instantExcitement. His feelings towards money and girls are not the issue; rather, it’s the fact that he is living his life exactly as he wants to be. That’s pretty great.
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Rina, I think that this need never fades in the same way that “dreams” of being a rockstar or a pro athlete never fade. But with age, they become compartmentalized to the fantasy zone.
A 28 year old man might get a rush from scoring a touchdown in a game of football with his buddies, but he’s not about to throw away his engineering career to attend a six-month training camp or American Idol tryouts.
A guy in his 20s, especially if he’s got great dating market value, will probably pursue the fulfillment of insatiable needs in this area. The same guy in his early to mid-30s will be at the peak of his powers in this area and will hopefully marry. If he’s smart, it will be a woman who is both
A) over his attractiveness thereshold; and
B) someone who has great marriage qualities (good personality, faithfulness, perseverance, family background, etc).
At this point, he will still have his “insatiable” needs, but unless he’s an outlier of some kind, he’ll define his life and his success in terms of his stewardship of his family.
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nicely put, PA
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so the insatiable need to bang many, many girls never fades? it’s never replaced by the desire for one particular girl?
Not quite as black and white as that. Men will always beautiful women attractive, but some men will not jeopardize their monogamous relationships for a quick fling. The trick is distinguishing between the committed kind of (what Roissy would call “beta” but what I would call honorable) men from the kind that don’t ever want to settle down.
Anecdote time. I got into a spat with a woman recently for saying that white men were more gentlemanly, and that my husband loves me and treats me like a queen. Her exact words: “I’m a white woman, and seem to keep ending up with middle eastern men… I think I am so attracted to them because they treat me the way women should be treated.” It was a total WTF moment for me, but then I realized why.
Apparently, a whole population of women don’t want to be treated well! They think only undesirable, “beta” men behave like gentlemen, and go for the kind of filth that disrespect, abuse and throw away women like used socks. The culture in the Middle East is practically as misogynistic as it gets, and this woman likes that.
In light of this knowledge, I can’t really blame all the “game” and dating advice telling men to be assholes, to “neg” women, to treat them like crap, and to always leave options open. If this is indeed what American women really want, then giving it to them is the way to go.
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The chick-chasing is probably just a deception, and he actually enjoys taking it in the twins, so to speak.
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Hope, I’m not sure you’re right about Middle Eastern men in general. I suspect you draw your ideas about it from the extreme end of the picture. (It also makes some difference whether you’re speaking of Muslim, Christian, or Jewish “Middle Eastern” men, but that’s a whole other story…)
Assuming you mean Muslim Arabs, I’ve heard from friends that these men fall in love easily and tend to take it for granted that if they sleep with a woman, they ought to marry her. And their courtships tend to be short, since they think marriage is the only honorable way to treat a woman.
Now, these tendencies can bring problems of their own, and of course, because Muslim culture has a misogynistic streak, even its good qualities may not work in your favour in the long run.
Marrying a Middle Eastern Muslim isn’t a risk I’d be willing to take (but then, I’m a believing Catholic, too), especially in today’s atmosphere of mutual suspicion between west and east, but I think some women have found legitimately attractive qualities in Middle Eastern men. Not men from Saudi Arabia, though – terrible “entitlement” problems, and they tend to be very spoilt by their mothers – a problem with Third World cultures in general, but worse there, where so many people are rich.
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Hope,
Dead on, brilliant comment. You understand the essence of the crisis of conscience of someone trying to get laid but yet be respectful. This doesn’t disturb you in any way? You seem very happily married.
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7 Hope, “In light of this knowledge, I can’t really blame all the “game” and dating advice telling men to be assholes, to “neg” women, to treat them like crap, and to always leave options open. If this is indeed what American women really want, then giving it to them is the way to go.”
I agreed with you up to this point and had my own WTF moment. Especially the part about “if this is what American women really want, then giving it to them is the way to go.” WFT??? I think an alarm clock needs to go off somewhere near your head. 😀
Believe it or not I find the man that roissy is waxing poetic about here probably has integrity, basic as his needs and wants are, he seems true to himself and of course it also seems women should not feel betrayed by such a man as he sounds like a “what you see is what you get” kind of man.
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wanna know where it ends?
my uncle had like 25 girlfriends before he even turned 32. then his dad died, and he ached to have a permanent intimacy in his life. he went through like 10 more sluts. then he saw my aunt, she was everything he’s ever dreamed of. he wanted to propose on their second date. now they live in the suburbs and have 2 kids, and this is his happiness.
there’s a time and a place for everything. if a man never feels the need to have a stable family or never finds that amazing woman, he SHOULD NOT settle. he’ll make a terrible husband or father if he’s pushed into it, rather than chooses it for himself.
i advocate for monogamy by choice
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Rina – As a guy who’s been in serious relationships, I’ve never cheated, however, I’ve always looked and talked. I doubt as I age that I will suddenly meet a woman who makes me stop looking at and speaking to other women. I don’t believe in cheating for a number of reasons, but just as committed women like to fantasize about prince charming, I’m going to keep looking at what comes in front of me. I feel that as a man, if I give up looking elsewhere I’ve given up a part of my biological being. That being said, I would have no problem with a woman doing the same, and looking and talking if we were dating.
Hope – I would hope you are making a mass generalization in this case, but different people crave different things. I’m sure there are women reading this right now that love guys who are completely chivalrous and never say or do anything that would hurt that image, and there are women, probably more, who prefer a man who speaks his mind and refuses to live his life anyway other than the way he intends to, like the guy Roissy describes.
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knave |nāv|noun archaic. a dishonest or unscrupulous man.
ORIGIN Old English cnafa [boy, servant] ; related to German Knabe ‘boy.’
See jerk noun sense 3 .
Ladies have you ever treated a man like a king and he turned out to be knave? The man Roissy describes is a prince, not quite a king, but definitely not a knave.
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PA,
I beg to differ with you on that. Mark Wahlberg did EXACTLY that in the movie Invincible which was based on true story. Ha, just saying
Holla
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VA, I didn’t see the movie. But it’s good to heed the words of Chris Rock: “you never want to be that old guy at the club.”
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Assuming you mean Muslim Arabs, I’ve heard from friends that these men fall in love easily and tend to take it for granted that if they sleep with a woman, they ought to marry her.
It isn’t necessarily the Muslim thing, though that is part of it (and she specifically mentioned that she didn’t like white men). She found it problematic that I had a loving relationship where my husband treats me very well, and she also found the relationship in this article “unhealthy.” She wrote, “the most outstanding quality of his new beloved wife was ‘She’s 5 feet, 4 inches, weighs 120, and she’s the most understanding person I’ve ever met.'” Okay, how is that bad? Then she disliked the way he described buying her a wedding dress, and compared the way the man hung a PRC flag in his room to how she bought a blanket for her new dog. Basically she seemed to think that men shouldn’t take care of a woman, emotionally or financially, at all.
This doesn’t disturb you in any way?
It disturbs me only in so far as that I can’t relate to it. My husband says that the reason why women here chase assholes is because America was a frontier society not too long ago, and culturally it glorifies alphas, jocks, and aggressive men. He himself is a bit rough around the edges, but I prefer the soft, affectionate parts of him (saying he will always love me, that I’ll never be unsexy to him, etc.). Using evolutionary psychology to explain why women want alpha males is interesting, but it can’t explain the whole story as women should still want monogamous men in light of the fact that they want a provider. To go against that instinct and say that men should not pamper women at all is odd to me.
WFT??? I think an alarm clock needs to go off somewhere near your head.
It’s as if women in this society are training their men to behave in ways that aren’t conducive to long-term relationships, by rewarding men who don’t treat them well with sex. It’s like classic pavlovian conditioning. There is no real alarm going off in my head, because the culture is the way it is. I can’t change it, but I can try to understand it (I have two cultural backgrounds, neither of which I understand completely).
I would hope you are making a mass generalization in this case, but different people crave different things.
Certainly. I rather applaud those who are honest about their preferences. Though I am making broad cultural generalizations about what women want, I think those trends came before the “game.” Therefore maybe women should not be so upset at men…
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Hope,
That was GREAT!!!! (your first comment) This is exactly how I treat women today. When I see a beautiful American woman on the streets I just go up to her and punch her in the face. No high, no nothing just, Blookup!
Then I throw her my business card and tell her to call me if she want’s the other eye to match.
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VK, that was YOU? Damn damn damn.
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Hope
Using evolutionary psychology to explain why women want alpha males is interesting, but it can’t explain the whole story as women should still want monogamous men in light of the fact that they want a provider. To go against that instinct and say that men should not pamper women at all is odd to me.
Hope,
That REALLY depends. I have been reading Dawkin’s selfish gene, and he shows that a woman can pursue two strategies, one is getting a guy to commit (the one everyone talks about). And the second is the “he-man” strategy, where the woman knows the guy won’t commit, and goes all out looking for the best genes/alpha genes.
I think Asian women were selected to use the first strategy, because it was impossible for them to raise kids on their own in freezing northeast asia, while african women went for the he-man strategy, because it wasn’t difficult to raise a child alone.
Just thoughts, but no, evolutionary psychology really does explain everything. Women make decisions on an emotional level. These emotions evolved over the course of hundreds of thousands of years. They’re not going to disappear just because we had a feminist revolution.
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evolutionary psychology really does explain everything
Newtonian physics explains 99% of things, but it passes the baton to Relativity once it reaches the frontiers of its usefulness. Same with Evolutionary Psychology. EP explains a lot; maybe even most things. It’s certainly science, while many competing ‘blank slateisms’ are fantasy. But I wouldn’t say it explains everything.
If your worldview is 100% materialist, then pershaps so. I, however, believe that there is a transcendent reality. This can be my traditional religion, or somethign else.
Two things that EP doesn’t account for, as far as I know, a big thing and a minor thing: Consciusness, and Suicide.
Consciousness is superfluous if the purely mechanical reality is the only reality.
Suicide could have worked out both ways, which means that it is unaccounted for in EP theories, as far as I know (I am not a professional in this field):
According to EP, a ‘loser’ person (ie., a suicidal) does off with himself so that precious resources aren’t wasted on his useless ass. But why doesn’t EP instead program losers, into whose rearing many resources were invested, to altruism instead?
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John Smith, I can’t remember whether you’re one of the people I’ve tangled with on this subject before – but a “he-man” (which I suppose must mean large, strong, obvious muscles, dominant personality), is not necessarily the man who “scores” the most women in today’s world. And, at least by Roissy’s definition, an alpha male is simply that – the man who scores the most women – excluse me, the most “quality” women, meaning the prettiest ones.
And there is something of a mystery about that. It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view that a woman might choose a large strong male to father her children, giving them more of a chance at survival. It doesn’t make much evolutionary sense that she would choose a smooth-talker who knows how to assert himself in a bar, but has no other obvious attractions – not even money or good looks. Yet there are men like this who do well for themselves at “scoring”.
Of course, I suppose you could argue that Roissy’s form of strategic “game” requires intelligence and forethought, which have their own evolutionary advantages.
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According to EP, a ‘loser’ person (ie., a suicidal) does off with himself so that precious resources aren’t wasted on his useless ass. But why doesn’t EP instead program losers, into whose rearing many resources were invested, to altruism instead?
I don’t know why, but I remember when I was suicidal several years ago, what always prevented me from killing myself was thinking about how the few people who invested themselves into me would have felt. Then I took into account my neice and nephew, and how they’d miss me deeply, and how I’d traumatize them with my death. Plus, the costs of a funeral only increase my burden on my loved ones. So, at that point, I decided to delay the suicide to the point where I haven’t considered it as an option anymore. Even in my deepest, darkest moments, it’s no longer an acceptable solution for me since some how, I found a reason to live. I’d imagine the same is true for those who were suicidal, but never completed the act.
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I read somewhere that 100% (not 99, but 100) suicide attempt survivors who went past the point of no return but were still of clear mind before their anticipated death, such as jumpers who survived, rembered regretting their decision before they knew they’d survive.
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A few words about “Robopathology” for Shannon not to read. 🙂 This falls into the category of whether we are human or machine, merely a product of evolution, or something much more mysterious and unknown.
“The Sufi’s have a beautiful word “Robopathology”. Almost all of us fall into this category of the “robopath”. One characteristic of a robopath; they are very dogmatic. They are always pretending to be certain about everything. The robopath lives in image involvement. He is always concerned about how his image is, what people are thinking about him–whether they think him good, saintly, this or that. He is not worried about transforming his life. If people believe in stupid things he will follow them. A robopath is always a perfectionist. A robopath is necessarily anti-joy, anti-life, he is a joy-killer. If somebody else is celebrating he will look with the eyes of condemnation. The robopath has no compassion. He is hard. He is hard on himself and others. To be conscious is to jump out of “robopathology” into being human.”
I just like to throw a little “now for something completely different” in once in a while because I find the strictly scientific approach fairly boring and limiting.
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I think Asian women were selected to use the first strategy, because it was impossible for them to raise kids on their own in freezing northeast asia, while african women went for the he-man strategy, because it wasn’t difficult to raise a child alone.
Yet white women, surely since their ancestry is in freezing northern Europe, should have been selected for the first strategy as well? It was to survive in the American frontiers, too, and they didn’t seem to always go for the types who lack integrity and chivalry, at least not to the extent they seem to today. I would think post-feminist culture (insistence on absolute equality) has a bit more to do it, perhaps more so in this case than genetics.
This falls into the category of whether we are human or machine, merely a product of evolution, or something much more mysterious and unknown.
I don’t like the method of always putting things in terms of “mysteries.” I like clarity and transparency, so I don’t like to attribute behavior to transcendental forces. Then again, I’m not putting the magic stuff all down. Astrology is pretty neat, after all.
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If we’re going to use the EP theory, then being attracted to a man for how good ‘a leader of the herd’ which means how good his social skills are seems to be quite an important characteristic for selection.
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She: “Go to Hell!”
He: “You cannot talk to me that way.”
She: “Do me, NOW!”
A woman wants a man who will show her where the boundaries are in no uncertain terms to her FACE. Not covertly. No woman wants a pushover. In fact no man wants a pushover either. The assertive approach makes her trust a man. That’s why you see beta looking; feminine looking men with hot women. They are not afraid of women and will stand up to them directly. Very sexy let me tell you.
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would think post-feminist culture … has a bit more to do [with women who go for the types who lack integrity and chivalry], perhaps more so in this case than genetics.
Hope,
An overlooked culprit is the combination of America’s post-war baby boom + prosperity, with a whole generation that had plenty of leisure and spending power. This propelled forward the 60s revolution and all that resulted from it.
There is a short path from the teenage girls going into hysterics at seeing the Beatles to your girlfriend who likes it rough with her M.E. boyfriends.
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I don’t know the guy you’re describing in this post, but he sounds like the sort that people consciously avoid at parties because he’s always trying too hard.
“Look! Women love guys with money, so I framed a picture of a woman and money as a thuddingly literal reminder of that fact! I’m speaking uncomfortable truth to power! You can’t handle it, I’m willing to bet! Would anyone care for some beer!? It’s from a small craft brewery in Belgium — none of that American piss for my discerning palate! Plus it impresses the ladies to know that I’m a man of sophistication and taste! Or if that doesn’t do it for you, I’ve got some Budweiser as well! None of that froo-froo gay European shit for me — just honest-to-goodness American beer, which demonstrates my casual masculinity to all the ladies! And I always call them ‘the ladies,’ because the ladies like that!”
…And so forth. But hey, maybe he’s great.
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Speaking or not of Robopaths, I love Daft Punk. Very robotic yet humanizing music I find. Tell me, what is your favorite seduction music? Music is my profession (without being too specific) so I’m always interested in what people find danceable, transformational, fuckable, etc. I wonder what kind of music Roissy’s friend listens to. Any guesses?
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28 i feel like a woman!! Goes more like this actually.
She: “Go to Hell, you bastard!”
He: “You cannot talk to me that way.”
She: “I can’t?”
He: “No.”
She: “Really?”
He: “NO.”
She: “OMG. I want to have sex with you NOW.” (as she begins ripping her clothes off.
Yes, we love being treated like queens, but queens can be real bitches.
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Past 40, his business may have a “going concern” issue. No pun intended.
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30 Reggie, not everyone would avoid him–just like–not everyone would avoid you. Variety and selection. Going into a store, don’t we want more to choose from? I have the same personality type as the man Roissy describes. A bit aggressive, too direct for many people’s tastes, lustful, excessive at times, simple minded, courageous, etc. He truly doesn’t give a rip what you think of him. I think that’s what Roissy appreciates too.
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You don’t always want more selection, not if one of those selections is, say, a bag of toenail clippings. And I don’t think he “doesn’t give a rip” what people think of him — why else would he buy an SUV in response to a rival’s purchase of an expensive car? He obviously wants to maintain appearances.
But again, it’s possible he’s great. Not having met him, it’s impossible to say.
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the 34 post above confirms that guy’s comment.
that is such a try hard post.
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At the end of the day, life is indeed a giant business transaction, money does buy happiness, and no amount of money in the world can curb a woman’s need to complain.
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no amount of money in the world can curb a woman’s need to complain.
Men complain, too. Vociferously. But it’s all cool because then they put their arms around you.
Buy low sell high is a cool market game to play. I do a bit of that in virtual games and have made some nice profits, but I notice that in the end, with too many resellers, there tends to be a lot of inflation. Or maybe there was just too much supply and not enough demand.
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36, I love you too, che che. 😀
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I have a theory about women loving men who treat them from the EP perspective. Perhaps its a displaced side effect of the necessity of raising children?
After all, the little bastards dry their hardest to kill you when all you’re doing is trying to give birth to them and in return you instinctively love them to stupid amounts. Then they proceed to make your life as miserable as possible while you give them your ‘resources’. In order for this vicious cycle to continue for the human race, you have to love them anyway. 🙂
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treat them badly*
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What’s the old adage? “Treat ’em mean, keep ’em keen.” Somewhat depressingly, it’s often dead on.
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42, I beg to differ & agree Reggie. In my experience with one particular man–but it ain’t going to happen again–if he was mean I was not only unkeen but gone. But being he was damn good in bed, I’d be back for another go round until he was mean and on and on it went. Great sex is an addiction unlike anything the world has ever known or will ever know like I need to state the obvious. He was with other women though who put up with it more consistently and I never could figure that one out.
I can only speak from my own experience which seems to piss certain people off here, but it’s what I know best and don’t express well in more general, global, societal, evo-psych terms like many others here. Sorry for the familiarity if it seems braggadocio.
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35 Reggie: “And I don’t think he “doesn’t give a rip” what people think of him — why else would he buy an SUV in response to a rival’s purchase of an expensive car? He obviously wants to maintain appearances.”
I think it’s the difference between a Tom Cruise (a complete image freak in my opinion) and a Frank Sinatra. This guy is more Frank Sinatra. He just wants the best of everything, wants to show it off and is competitive in that sense with other men, but as far as whether you spoke to him or not in a party? I doubt very much he would give a shit. Whereas if you were an “important person” Tom Cruise would be trying to kiss your ass.
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23 David, sorry to hear about your extreme state of mind a few years ago. I believe we all think about it at some point(s) in our lives. You remind me of a funny story though, of a man who was so considerate of other peoples feelings, that when he knew he was going to die very shortly, he insisted on walking to the cemetery so no one would be bothered to take him there.
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I think Asian women were selected to use the first strategy [stable provider], because it was impossible for them to raise kids on their own in freezing northeast asia, while african women went for the he-man strategy, because it wasn’t difficult to raise a child alone.
The part about Africa makes sense, but I’m not so sure about Asia. It’s not freezing everywhere in east Asia, much of China is sub-tropical or tropical and Japan is mostly temperate.
And rice cultivation in particular seems like the sort of work women could manage on their own.
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MPR, your repeated (and repeated and repeated) posts here are the best kind of proof for the old saying. You’re constantly trying to prove yourself, to validate yourself — whether you want to admit it or not — in the eyes of Roissy and the commenters here who mock your comments and deride your age and physical appearance. I mean, you posted your (supposed) physical stats in order to defend yourself against attacks from anonymous strangers on the Internet, none of whom have actually met you. Doesn’t that seem a little desperate to you? Of course it doesn’t, because you don’t (or won’t) see it, but believe me, we do.
Basically, whenever you respond to an insult with a variation on, “No, you’re wrong, I’m great!” you’re qualifying yourself to the person who insulted you — which is one of the key steps in seduction, making the woman have to prove herself to you rather than the other way around. You’ve fallen into their trap.
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47, Thanks Reggie, I feel a lot better now.
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I know your friend’s type. And yeah. He’s fun. But he doesn’t age well. There are few things more pathetic than this kind of bachelor, at 60 years or so, when the drinking has caught up with him, swelling his nose and gut, and the “dates” have dried up. Then it’s just him, hanging out on his buddy’s couch. Trying to get someone else’s ball and chain to put up with him long enough to let him hang out, maybe even give him a decent meal. Or maybe he’s the guy at the end of the bar, the one who still thinks it’s cool that he knows all the bartenders.
I feel bad for him. But, well, ew…
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I know your friend’s type. And yeah. He’s fun. But he doesn’t age well. There are few things more pathetic than this kind of bachelor, at 60 years or so, when the drinking has caught up with him, swelling his nose and gut, and the “dates” have dried up. Then it’s just him, hanging out on his buddy’s couch. Trying to get someone else’s ball and chain to put up with him long enough to let him hang out, maybe even give him a decent meal. Or maybe he’s the guy at the end of the bar, the one who still thinks it’s cool that he knows all the bartenders.
I feel bad for him. But, well, ew…
PS – Nancy Sinatra said her dad liked to break into his ex-wife’s house and spend the night on the couch. Apparently it was the one place the epitomy of cool felt safe. I love Ol’ Blue Eyes. But I wouldn’t say he was happy. And there was only one of him, after all. I think he really hated people who tried to imitate him.
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he part about Africa makes sense, but I’m not so sure about Asia. It’s not freezing everywhere in east Asia, much of China is sub-tropical or tropical and Japan is mostly temperate.
And rice cultivation in particular seems like the sort of work women could manage on their own.
My understanding is men (and women) are pretty shy in Nordic countries where it’s cold. Apparently the word ‘ujo’ (shy or reserved) actually has positive connotations in Finland, meaning ‘strong enough to survive the cold’ or something like that.
I suspect it has to do with a long history of civilization, where the sociopathic-like tendencies of alphas are less rewarded because of a long history of the rule of law.
The king of course gets to be an alpha, but he’s not enough to affect the gene pool. Plus you had Chinese scholars becoming mandarins and getting lots of concubines.
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“We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
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50; dizzy 8. Your vision of roissy’s friend’s future may unfortunately be accurate. Without sufficient incentives, most of us deteriorate; including ‘ol blue eyes who had his share of trouble with excess.
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oooh i like ReggiE!
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I like Reggie too!!!!!
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that one was totally made up. an i-banker would never say “allocate your resources”. that doesn’t mean anything. in reality he would say “diversify your portfolio”. resources can be allocated into one investment, which is risky.
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