This article lays out pretty thoroughly just what a raw deal marriage is for men. Divorce is twice as likely to catch husbands by surprise as it is wives.
In a 2004 poll by the AARP, one in four men who were divorces in the previous year said they “never saw it coming.” (Only 14 percent of divorced women said they experienced the same unexpected broadside.)
In divorce, it’s men who suffer more financially:
The divorce system tends to award wives custody of the children, substantial child support, the marital home, half the couple’s assets, and, often, heavy alimony payments.
This may come as startling news to a public that has been led to believe that women are the ones who suffer financially postdivorce, not men. But the data show otherwise, according to an exhaustive study of the subject by Sanford L. Braver, a professor of psychology at Arizona State University and author of Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths.
[…] social scientists ignored men’s expenses — the tab for replacing everything from the bed to the TV to the house — as well as the routine costs of helping to raise the children, beyond child support. Even the tax code favors women: Not only is child support not tax deductible for fathers, but a custodial mother can take a $1,000 per child tax credit; the father cannot, even if he’s paying. As “head of the household,” the mother gets a lower tax rate and can claim the children as exemptions. If the ex-wife remarries, she is still entitled to child support, even if she marries a billionaire. Indeed, every year men are actually thrown in jail for failing to meet their child-support obligations. In the state of Michigan alone, nearly 3,000 men were locked up for that offense in 2005.
The stark realities of divorce paint a picture overwhelmingly tilted against a man’s interests. Here’s an example of just how bad it can get for a beta provider who thought if he was the good man the gods of fairness would reward him with steady sex, a faithful and loving wife, and a stable family:
They’d started going on expensive vacations in Europe and Hawaii, and he figured she’d be pleased at the prospect of taking more trips together, or at least at the prospect of seeing him around the house a little more, and not buried in his basement office. He had met her in graduate school over a quarter century ago, and they’d had their ups and downs, but he was still crazy about her. And he thought that, with a little more time together, she’d be crazy about him again too.
But no. She scarcely listened to any talk of retirement, or of vacations, or of anything he had to say. She had plans of her own.
“I want a divorce,” she said.
Paul was so stunned that he thought he must have misheard her. But her face told him otherwise. “She looked like the enemy,” he says. He started to think about everything he’d built: the thriving business, the wonderful family, the nice life in the suburbs. And he thought of her, and how much he still loved her. And then, right in front of her, he started to cry.
That night, he found a bottle of whiskey, and he didn’t stop drinking it until he nearly passed out.
Things turned sh—- very fast. His wife took out a temporary restraining order, accusing him of attempting to kidnap their youngest son. The claim was never proved in court. Then, with the aid of some high-priced lawyers, she extracted from him a whopping $50,000 a month — a full 75 percent of his monthly income. Barred from the house, he was not allowed regular access to the office he used to generate that income. (On the few times he was permitted inside, his wife did not let him use the bathroom. She insisted that he go outside in the woods.)
Paul is a very wealthy man, an “alpha” by most men’s definitions (though not by my definition) — he earns over $65,000 per month — yet his high financial status ultimately did not shield him from his wife’s dr. jekyll mrs. hyde act. In fact, it may have hastened her merciless decision. Paul is a classic beta provider, and after his wife had extracted the last penny of tribute from him to raise the kids to a self-sufficient age and live the life of a bon bon eating oprah watcher, she disposed of him with the cold-hearted cruelty of a despot dispatching his enemies by firing squad. His wife is likely a Hillary supporter.
Maxim #13: When the love is gone, women can be as cold as if they had never known you.
If that isn’t enough to convince you of the high risk gamble that is marriage, here’s another horror story:
Long before his wife came along, a frame-store owner named Jordan Appel, 55, had built a fine house for himself atop West Newton Hill in one of the fancier Boston suburbs. He loved bringing in a wife and then adding two children. “It felt so wonderful to say ‘my wife’ and ‘my children’ and feel part of a community.” He volunteered for the preschool’s yard sale; his wife took up with a lover. Sometimes she slept with him in Appel’s own house; in time, she decided to divorce Appel. As these things go, he was obliged to leave the house, and, as it happened, the community too. Money was so tight that he ended up sleeping in a storage room above his frame shop two towns away. His ex-wife works part-time on the strength of Appel’s child custody and alimony payments, and spends time with her boyfriend in Appel’s former house. She lives rather well, and he has to make $100,000 a year to support her and the children, which amounts to 70-hour workweeks. One day, he went back to his house and discovered many of his belongings out on the sidewalk with the trash. “My body feels like it’s dissolving in anger,” he says. “I’m in an absolute rage every single day.”
Now of course, many of you will say “but this guy Jordan is a total beta letting his wife take advantage of him like that!” and you’d be right. But regardless of his personal failings, his congenital betatude is no reason to accede to injustice codified by a discriminatory legal system. Either the laws change (and I personally favor elimination of no fault divorce as a start) or men should heed my advice and stay clear of the altar. Since I am not going to lift a finger to agitate for new laws that have a zero percent chance of happening in my lifetime, I follow the second option.
Maxim #8: Marriage is a social mechanism designed to exchange sex for indentured servitude.
So why are women now the eager instigators of divorce? What changed in the culture? Four things, primarily: the pill, easy divorce, women’s economic independence, and rigged laws that make divorce a good financial prospect for women. The four sirens of the sexual apocalypse together have created the perfect sociological storm where a woman has every incentive in the world to ditch a husband to follow the whims of her heart once his usefulness has been exhausted.
Listen to me — skip all that shit and learn to get the sex for free if you don’t already. All the positive loving benefits you can get out of marriage can also be had within an unmarried relationship.
Later in the article, the question is asked what can men do to avoid divorce?
One way, of course, is to avoid marriage.
The CH method. So elegant, so simple. So effective!
[…]husbands might be wise to pay attention to the essential ratio that — according to John Gottman, PhD, a world-renowned researcher of marriage stability — governs marital success or failure: five to one. That means husbands (and wives) should direct at least five positive remarks or actions to their spouses for every negative one. Any less and the marriage is in trouble.
Dr. John Gottman, five to one you are a dumbfuck. Glorifying their wives and putting them on pedestals is exactly what cost these hopeless betas their marriages. What they need to do is challenge their wives, not kiss their expanding asses with a stream of compliments. Cockiness, humor, turning the tables, not taking her shit, flirting with other women while wifey is watching… these are the improvements in character that will keep a wife’s love for her husband strong. As long as men are following the advice of these “social scientists” they will never unlock the mystery of what attracts women to men and they will suffer the consequences.
Here is an excellent quote from the article which vividly illustrates how badly the system is rigged in favor of women:
“A father could be sitting in his own home, not agreeing to a divorce, not unfaithful to his marriage vows, and not abusive, and the next thing he knows, the court has taken his house, his children, and a lot of his money, and then forced him to pay his wife’s legal fees and even her psychologist’s fees. And he can be threatened with jail time if he resists.”
To recap:
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divorce theft
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monogamy
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second class spouse under the law
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sex once a month TOPS with the same old pussy
So.


The system may be rigged, but women in large numbers are also resisting the call to marriage, even if it is in their financial benefit.
The show “2 and a half men,” sometimes painfully illustrate the concepts you talk about in terms of beta marriage.
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I am strongly for no-fault divorce, probably because I had one. Combative divorces, in the long run, are infinitely more expensive, painful, and time-consuming.
Never marry someone if you believe they would take you for a ride if you divorced.
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prenup motherfucker.
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“Never marry someone if you believe they would take you for a ride if you divorced.”
Most people go into it thinking divorce is impossible because they have ‘real love.’ And barring that, they think their significant other would never take them to the cleaners. You never know how a person will react until the shit hits the fan.
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i don’t advocate cheating or physical abuse.
I never said you did. I said you advocated humiliation. My father is a special breed of despicable man, which is why I find your blog tame in comparison.
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if there was one specific thing i could change about humanity it would be this:
our ability to imagine and work towards the distant future.
it’s our greatest strength AND weakness.
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Once you’re married, you’re fucked. Men especially, but women too.
Marriage is outdated and destroys the souls of the partners. For centuries, marriages were arranged by parents who knew better. Marriage based on practicality and logic.
For the last 100 years people choose their own partners and it’s been downhill ever since….marriage based on silly notions of romanticism and “soul mates”. How the fuck can that ever last?
People are way too selfish and narccisitic to be married anymore.
Better to just be lovers who don’t even share an apartment.
God I wish I didn’t get married.
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your sentence implied otherwise.
Implications and statements are different. If you read implications into my statements, I can’t really help that.
I don’t believe my mother was blameless in her situation either. She should have listened to her parents’ advice and never married my father, nor should she have stayed with him after knowing he cheated on her. One could argue that her biological instincts compelled her to love an “alpha” man, but those instincts caused her nothing but woes.
i don’t advocate that either.
I read into your following statement as implying the advocation of humiliation:
Cockiness, humor, turning the tables, not taking her shit, flirting with other women while wifey is watching… these are the improvements in character that will keep a wife’s love for her husband strong.
At least, I would be humiliated if my husband flirted with other women in front of me. He may act “beta,” but I treat him with the same kind of tender care and adoration with which he treats me. Constant psychological warfare is too tiring.
My world view is that people should take responsibility for their own actions. My mother may have psychologically abused me, and she may blame my father for leaving her scarred, but I shouldn’t take that abuse and transfer it onto others, which I did in my youth.
I can rise above the circle of abuse and victimization, rather than wallow in the misery that I believe was caused by others, but which I held onto because they were convenient excuses for my own behavior. I can confront and overcome my fears — my previous fears of marriage included.
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Hope:
When I was 3, my father divorced my mother in a Chinese court, with the result that my mother got zero alimony, zero child support, and most of her belongings taken away by my father (including the TV, phone, etc.). She never saw a penny of his M.D. salary, but he stole her savings when he left her.”
Your experiences are based on what happened in a Chinese court and with the Chinese justice system at the time. This has little to do with American men, who are going to be judged in an American court of law.
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I posted twice b/c I got an error message the first time.
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Hope:
“It’s by no means perfect, but at least it burdens the tax payers less.”
1. That is like saying that if we had a criminal justice system predicated on the tenet ‘Guilt until proven innocent,’ that would be OK because at least we would be able to convict people who would otherwise fall through the cracks and, in so doing, save a few more hypothetical victims from crimes. The current family court system penalizes men unfairly just to supposedly indirectly help the taxpayer and directly to help women.
2. I’m not at all convinced that the taxpayer is better off in the current system. You are neglecting the possibility that if women had less options after a divorce or after a child is produced, there would be less divorces and fewer unwanted children produced- both of which could be advantageous for the society.
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What happens in say 10 years when you have 2+ kids, he’s making the majority of the money while you’re at home, and you decide, you know what I’m bored and want something new, I get no challenges out him, he’s simply a “Yes Man”. You file a no contest and you win! Congrats! Your husband meanwhile, would go through the symptoms mentioned above. His chance of success increases if he constantly presents himself as challenging and engaging, and know that his love for you shouldn’t be taken for granted.
Even though I’m young, I’ve known my husband for almost 10 years already. We’ve gone through our share of ups and downs, but I don’t believe that we will head down that path. I’ve realized that the “boredom” phase women experience in their marriages is nothing more than ridiculous immaturity. It is short-sighted thinking based on the false belief that they can do “so much better” than the man they have. But they never will.
I like to learn from other people’s mistakes. My mother-in-law made the mistake of taking someone who truly loved her for granted, and ditching him for a scumbag who treated her far worse. My mother made the mistake of marrying the wrong man and taking out her anger and frustration on her kid. I watch my mother grow older and lonelier with no man around, and I watch my grandmother grow old with my grandfather beside her, taking care of her despite her having a stroke and being half-paralyzed and wheelchair-bound. There is simply no way I would file a divorce because of “boredom.”
What other people do is their business, but I think people today are making big mistakes in believing that they can fool around with divorce just because of small issues. When they are in their 60’s and 70’s and have no children to love, no spouses to care for them, and no meaningful relationships, that’s when loneliness sets in.
Love is not manifested by presenting meaningless “challenges.” Life is challenging enough as it is. How love is manifested… well that’s subject to a much longer discussion.
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Hope: It seems that you’ve clearly lived through and learned from some very powerful experiences, and while I think that in your case things will be great, it’s not the case with most women today.
Divorce is bad news fro everyone, but with the legal system and cultural values/norms that we have today, in AMERICAN society, it’s not smart for a man to do as you say. Men and women should be concerned with themselves first, and their partner second. You can’t trust anyone anymore, and I think it’s plain foolish for a man to not take the necessary precautions.
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“Joe Cordell, of the law firm Cordell and Cordell, which specializes in representing men in domestic cases, attributes this to wives deciding as they approach age 40 that it’s now or never for getting back into the marriage market.”
That sentence from the article caught my eye. What man would marry a 40 year old woman that had already been divorced once? Sounds like pretty delusional thinking on the part of the woman in such a situation.
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today, in AMERICAN society, it’s not smart for a man to do as you say. Men and women should be concerned with themselves first, and their partner second. You can’t trust anyone anymore, and I think it’s plain foolish for a man to not take the necessary precautions.
Certainly, people should keep their eyes open and know what they’re getting into, and communicate/discuss all possibilities before heading into marriage. But what did I say men should do? I don’t believe I’ve said anything previously about that.
I think men should take care of their biological offspring. That’s the only part of the divorce law I really agree with, personally. They should not have to pay for children who are not theirs, unless they voluntarily want to do so (adoption), nor should they have to pay alimony after the dissolution of a marriage where the woman is capable of earning her own paycheck, which is most American women these days.
Marriage without children is really no different than living together with someone for an extended period of time, and I’ve been there, done both. A divorce should therefore be no different than two people who’ve been living together separating, and the woman should not expect to get any special benefits for being a woman, since she can usually find another man — yes, even women who are in their 40s.
Truthfully I don’t think men should give a woman everything unless she has demonstrated that she’s willing to give him everything — but somebody has to take that leap first. I can only speak of myself when I say that it didn’t matter to me if he rejected my offering, because love compels people to do irrational things. So he can be all “beta” behavior all he wants, and I would still be attracted to him, because I love him for who he is, not the affectations he puts on.
Men should take the precautions and choose their mate carefully, but they should not avoid marriage altogether. To do that is akin to giving up on all women — something that would be just as irrational as saying women should give up on all men due to some perceived injustice.
To put up some examples of certain men getting screwed over by marriage as “proof” for why no man should get married is exactly the same thing women do when they put up examples of women getting screwed over by marriage as proof for pushing through their agenda. My mother tried to instill a hatred of all men in me since before I hit puberty, but it didn’t work.
A society full of people who won’t get married or have kids is not ideal. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration since the birth rate here is still high compared to western Europe, but since Americans are still popping out those kids, people should take care of their offspring regardless of how bad the other contributor of genetic material might be.
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I didn’t read the whole thing.. work gets in my way of keeping up on blogs…
But come ON.
My ex husband said the same thing – that he was blind sided. The problem isn’t that many men are blind-sided (though some undoubtedly are), the problem is that many men are BLIND.
My marriage was going downhill from day one – I asked my ex to counseling, was honest, even TOLD him I wasn’t happy (that would be a big clue that things aren’t working).
#1 I finally got him to one counseling session, and after 5 years of marriage, when asked why he wanted to be with me, he said “because she is my wife.” When pressed further, he said he’d have to have some time to think about it. When pressed even further, he said maybe he needs more time to get to know me better. He couldn’t think of one reason why he wanted to be with me.
So I left.
Then he told everyone that he was blindsided.
Ummm??
#2. After we got married, we stopped having sex. Because HE was too tired.. had a headache….etc. Don’t give me the BS of women who get married then stop putting out. I’m a “quite often” kind of girl (’tis true), and he was a once a monther.
#3. I gave the guy everything when I left.. The house, everything, just so we could move on from this. And he still complains that I blind sided him and left him with nothing. (Umm.. Ok.. what if I had asked for my half of the house and half of his 401k earnings from the 5 years we were married? THAT would have been leaving him with nothing.)
#4. We have joint legal custody of our child, but since I have him OUR house (since I couldn’t afford it on my own), he gets to have primary custody of her. If I had been able to afford the house, and asked him to leave, I would have primary custody of her. All because I had a part time job so I could be around most of the time and RAISE HER. Then I get the shaft.
#5. Turn it all around. I am scared to death of getting married again. Men aren’t the only ones who get screwed.
#6. I would still get married again though. I think it is kind of outdated. I think a lot of the rules and original meaning behind it don’t apply anymore. Then again, I’m just an old fashioned kind of girl.
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Random links below support the belief that marriage is good for men. Let’s face it, anyone wishing to prove or disprove anything under the sun can do it with statistical studies. Do we really need studies and statistics to make decisions in our individual lives? Everything stems from the individual. If you have a strong desire for marriage and expect it to be fabulously fulfilling, then that will probably be your reality. If you don’t want to get married, because you believe marriage is inherently bad, then you’d be an idiot to get married.
http://www.nationalforum.com/Electronic%20Journal%20Volumes/Sheehy,%20Gail%20Why%20Marriage%20is%20Good%20Medicine%20For%20Men.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/healthy-marriage/MH00108
http://www.legalhelpmate.com/news/prenuptial-agreement-news-1.aspx
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AMEN Nikon. Back when marriages were negotiated as business deals, you could have your fake, loveless marriage and your real loves on the side, or, your arranged marriage turned out all right because you were matched up with someone who you had a lot in common with and grew to love. All this marrying for love shit is the reason that the divorce rate hovers at what, 40% in the US? I’m taking the easy way out – never getting married (and no kids ever, either).
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So I think what I meant with my rant above is:
Marriage isn’t for everyone.
Men can be victims, and screwed by their ex-wives. And the same is opposite for women (mostly in the northern states, I would assume.)
That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for some people, though. I think it’s what you make of it. Some people are willing to put in the work, but I agree with a point that Nikon made – [Many] People are way too selfish and narcissistic to be married anymore. They want to “get” from a marriage, but not put anything into it.
But even that point implies that if you choose not to get married, it’s because you’re too selfish to be in a marriage and put in the work. Some people just don’t want to be married, and that’s all good to.
I guess it’s just a personal preference.
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Shit happens. Sometimes the man cheats, sometimes the woman cheats. Women abuse, men abuse. If kids are involved, someone is gonna get screwed somehow, either over money, not getting to see the kids, being made the villian, whatever. Basically, it boils down to this: life is a crap shoot. You have to decide whether you are man enough to take the leap of faith or not, whether it be regarding marriage, love or children. Frankly, this is something I struggle with, so I am not casting stones. I just don’t look to weak articles to justify my cowardice/trepidations. I just hope I can get past it and not cast myself as the victim.
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Never marry someone if you believe they would take you for a ride if you divorced.
prophetess, heal thyself!
prenup motherfucker.
a good lawyer will shred a prenup.
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Combative divorces, in the long run, are infinitely more expensive, painful, and time-consuming.
combative, difficult divorces will disincentivize divorce as a free-wheeling option for both men and women.
it is as it should be.
result: fewer divorces as well as fewer ill-fated marriages.
this is something i’ve noticed most people, especially liberal women, cannot readily grasp:
incentives matter.
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What you leave out, is that men can suffer just as much if they don’t marry, unless they are very, very careful about who they sleep/live with. Accidental pregnancies, whether genuinely accidental or secretly deliberate, can leave you stuck paying child support to a woman whom you don’t even know, a worse outcome, some might say, than paying it to your ex-wife of 20 years. I’ve even heard of cases in which longtime girlfriends were awarded alimony (not child support) after a relationship ended.
Besides, for every horror story about men and divorce, there is another about women and divorce. The worst of these probably occur lower down on the social scale, though, where the husband has less money to begin with.
I don’t know about the United States, but in Canada many child-support agreements are not enforced by the law; ex-husbands default frequently (or they used to do so) and nothing happens, or so it seems to judge by angry stories from friends who are the children of divorced parents.
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Your “Whipped” magazine cover cracks me up. I must not fit the female stereotype at all. “Avoid Confrontation. How to Keep Her Happy Without Getting Yelled At.” With my last it was more like; “Avoid Confrontation. How to Keep Him From Giving you the Silent Treatment.” Icky, icky passive-aggressives; men or women are the worst. If your man never, ever expresses anger with you?–call the police. Chances are he’s about to go postal. And passive men just bring out the aggression in women.
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Accidental pregnancies, whether genuinely accidental or secretly deliberate, can leave you stuck paying child support to a woman whom you don’t even know
as women have the right to abort a pregnancy, men should have the right to abort their financial responsiblity to the pregnant woman.
i am not kidding.
there is another about women and divorce.
the horror stories happening to divorced men dwarf in egregiousness the suffering inflicted on divorced women.
you can thank the law for that.
but in Canada many child-support agreements are not enforced by the law;
maybe canader isn’t 100% GAY after all.
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The good sides of marriage is having a family, having someone to love and to be loved, to grow old with, and all the marriage rights that come with it. The ugly sides are too numerous to list.
I was deathly afraid of marriage before I got married. I saw a system rigged in the man’s favor, and a marriage in which the man used the woman then ditched her like an old sock. My mother’s family paid for my father’s college education in China to become a doctor and provided him the opportunity to immigrate to the U.S.
When I was 3, my father divorced my mother in a Chinese court, with the result that my mother got zero alimony, zero child support, and most of her belongings taken away by my father (including the TV, phone, etc.). She never saw a penny of his M.D. salary, but he stole her savings when he left her.
I grew up with my grandparents, didn’t see either of my parents until I was 10, then lived with my mother in poverty. She worked as a waitress making below minimum wage, and we both lived on her making less than $10k a year. My father went on to marry the woman whom he’d been seeing on the side during his first marriage. They got a house in upstate New York, which I saw once when I was in high school.
The only upside of all this was that I got a nearly full ride to a top-tier private university. But my mother had a psychological breakdown in her 50s and moved back to China to be around her close relatives. To this day my mother still tells me that that I should never trust a man completely.
Men aren’t the only victims of marriage. The laws may be in the cold and ruthless women’s favor, but they certainly don’t make the kind-hearted, naive women suffer any less at the hand of a cold and ruthless man. My father humiliated my mother the same way he advocates, did not compliment her, cheated on her, beat her up physically to the point that she landed in the E.R., and left her with no money.
I guess he ended up pretty well for himself, though. So the moral of the story is: be cold and ruthless, lest you become a victim yourself. Right?
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I fail to see how the suffering of a few affluent men can be taken to mean that no man should ever get married. Really, a $65K monthly income is far from standard. Now, if you could present information on a normal-sized divorce, that might persuade me.
Marriage is a total crapshoot. If you haven’t done it, you don’t get it. It works out, or it doesn’t, and making the process more difficult doesn’t make a damn bit of difference. It just causes unnecessary suffering, especially if children are involved.
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Well folks marriage is dead…and women killed it. thanks.
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My father humiliated my mother the same way he advocates, did not compliment her, cheated on her, beat her up physically to the point that she landed in the E.R., and left her with no money.
please read again.
i don’t advocate cheating or physical abuse.
nice try, though.
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I fail to see how the suffering of a few affluent men can be taken to mean that no man should ever get married.
the laws favor women across all income levels, except in those few rare cases where she makes considerably more than him.
and those marriage were doomed from the start.
making the process more difficult doesn’t make a damn bit of difference.
actually, it makes all the difference in the world.
see: human nature.
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I never said you did.
your sentence implied otherwise. kind of like the same shit you pull on half sigma’s blog. sneaky! it won’t be so easy getting one by me.
I said you advocated humiliation.
i don’t advocate that either.
but you keep on trying. whatever it takes to keep your worldview unshaken.
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so what is the deal on pre nups?
is it possible to have a real iron clad prenup?
you said a good lawyer will be able to beat it, is that not state dependant?
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Hope:
I think men should take care of their biological offspring. That’s the only part of the divorce law I really agree with, personally. They should not have to pay for children who are not theirs, unless they voluntarily want to do so (adoption), nor should they have to pay alimony after the dissolution of a marriage where the woman is capable of earning her own paycheck, which is most American women these days.
Hope, should a man have to take care of a kid if her pregnancy is a result of the failure of contraception while having casual sex?
Or, if the woman forgot to take her birth control pills?
If two people agree to have children together, and then the man flees, that’s one thing.
But if two people have casual sex, the woman gets pregnant, and the guy WANTS her to have an abortion or put the baby up for adoption, and the woman refuses, then should the guy pay?
All we’re saying is that if the woman has the ability, through abortion, birth control, or adoption, to forsake her responsibility to the child, then why should the guy not be able to have control of his financial future the same way?
On another note, I understand your perspective on men and dating, but all to often you assume that your logical and careful approach to male-female relations is duplicated by most women in the US. That’s simply not true. You may be the rare woman who doesn’t walk all over a beta. That still means that men should look out for themselves.
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I haven’t seen you this fired up and upset since that one girl fingered your asshole on the dance floor of Play but later on we found out it was a tranny .. wait what?
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Hope, should a man have to take care of a kid if her pregnancy is a result of the failure of contraception while having casual sex?
Or, if the woman forgot to take her birth control pills?
This is why I don’t engage in casual sex, nor had I ever. Accidents happen, and somebody always has to pay up, whether it’s a car accident or a baby accident. The essence of the modern man’s moral dilemma is this: the child still has half his genetic material, and from a purely practical / evolutionary perspective the man should be invested in his offspring and ensure that his children prosper to the point of passing on more.
However, if people are not interested in having kids or taking care of the future, then the whole society might as well break down at that point (like the pandas that won’t screw to save its own species). I would side with the more “conservative” view and say that if the child exists, all those responsible for its genetic contribution should have the responsibility of taking care of the child, except in cases where that responsibility is expressly written away (giving it up for adoption, etc.).
But if two people have casual sex, the woman gets pregnant, and the guy WANTS her to have an abortion or put the baby up for adoption, and the woman refuses, then should the guy pay?
There are plenty of people who argue that the child should not be aborted regardless of either the woman’s or the man’s wishes. My view on this won’t dictate policy, but to answer your question, I’m not against forced abortions per se (i.e. the man having a say over the woman’s having an abortion). I think it can be a rather dumb move on the woman’s part to have a child whose father does not want it, but I’m an example of such a child — so hey.
all to often you assume that your logical and careful approach to male-female relations is duplicated by most women in the US. That’s simply not true. You may be the rare woman who doesn’t walk all over a beta. That still means that men should look out for themselves.
If I truly assumed this, then why did I bring up the example of my mother-in-law, who is practically the quintessential self-entitled American woman who crapped all over a “beta”? I do not think what is going on in American society currently is healthy or conducive to people’s long-term happiness. I’m hopeful that we as women rise above our often selfish, petty and hurtful instincts, for both our own good and for the good of the men we are supposed to love. As for people’s general behavior, I see enough examples of wonderful men and women and marriages around me to not be cynical.
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Here is the op-ed piece that probably inspired the piece linked to:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1925051/posts
This was a great post. Glad to see someone keeps up with this stuff.
If Hillary Clinton is elected, I shudder to think how much worse things will get for men regarding marriage.
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Also, with the declining stigma, at what point are men going to start turning to homosexuality?
Sex robots, porn, and overseas legal prostitution.
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Hope:
“When I was 3, my father divorced my mother in a Chinese court, with the result that my mother got zero alimony, zero child support, and most of her belongings taken away by my father (including the TV, phone, etc.). She never saw a penny of his M.D. salary, but he stole her savings when he left her.”
How can you compare what happened in a Chinese court to what she was talking about in America and as it pertains to the American justice system?
You entire post is predicated on this fact and another reason why it is totally irrelevant to the experiences of American men, as she has been pointing out.
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DA:
“Sex robots, porn, and overseas legal prostitution.”
I’m currently a young beta male who earns a lot of money (currently I’m earning close to what ‘Paul’ earns a month). I’ve found that porn and overseas prostitution is a pretty good substitute for American women. I’d strongly urge you to consider this option. I love foreign pussy! It is absolutely delicious! A ticket on China Southern to BKK costs ~600-700 dollars from LA, but this was a few years back so costs might be higher now.
I saw quite a few American and Euro mongers in BKK trying to get into real relationships with Thai prosititutes (I am serious about this happening & often the Thai chick goes straight back to Thailand after coming to the foreign country). Remember, Kids, put the toys back in the sandbox after you’ve played with them!
If your looking to bring a chick back to America who is not a prostitute, this path could be fraught with peril, too. Sometimes it can succeed. But, I’ve also heard stories of the chick bolting after coming to the States. No good deed goes unpunished, right? All in all I’ve got less blind respect for women than before I started learning about their true mercenary natures. Also, why would any guy in their right minds want to get a chick who’s used up (mid 30s or later, most of the time) or got baggage (i.e. kid(s))? Talk about a lose lose situation.
I eventually want to get married mainly to have kids.I could actually show you study after study that shows that kids do better on a number of indices (education, depression, drug abuse…) in a nuclear family than growing up with just a single mom.
Basically, if you’re a guy who wants to have kids, getting married isn’t really going to help you as much as it might end up being beneficial to the kids. I actually think that having kids is still the best and maybe the only good reason left to get married. Just make sure to get as iron clad a pre-nup as you can get. It’s better to have one than not have one. If she won’t get a pre- nup, kick her straight through the uprights and out of your life!
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You entire post is predicated on this fact and another reason why it is totally irrelevant to the experiences of American men, as she has been pointing out.
That, actually, is the entire point. The lack of child support and female protection laws can cause problems just as easily as the current American system does.
They were both living in the U.S. and had permanent residency when the divorce happened, and he specifically took her back to China to get the divorce, because the courts there had no provisions for the woman. Soon afterwards they both became American citizens.
In my mother’s case she never sought public assistance or welfare in the U.S. But one can easily imagine that she could have, as she was qualified. This is why states often aggressively pursue child support from fathers, because they don’t want another welfare mother in their system.
Irresponsible men who do not take care of their children can cause social ills just as easily as awful women who see men as easy money bags can. But to punish children for the sins of the parents is undesirable, which is why the current system exists in the first place. It’s by no means perfect, but at least it burdens the tax payers less.
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Nevertheless, nearly all successful alpha males marry. Several times, often enough. While it’s right to warn against bad marriages or marrying the wrong person, it’s wrong to condemn the institution of marriage itself, which has a lot to recommend it in the right circumstances.
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Shannon: “It works out or it doesn’t”
Then why do people get divorced after 20+ years, wouldn’t it have either worked out or not?
Hope: “At least, I would be humiliated if my husband flirted with other women in front of me. He may act “beta,” but I treat him with the same kind of tender care and adoration with which he treats me.”
While I feel bad for you and your mother, this type of relationship leads men into a divorce they never saw coming. What happens in say 10 years when you have 2+ kids, he’s making the majority of the money while you’re at home, and you decide, you know what I’m bored and want something new, I get no challenges out him, he’s simply a “Yes Man”. You file a no contest and you win! Congrats! Your husband meanwhile, would go through the symptoms mentioned above. His chance of success increases if he constantly presents himself as challenging and engaging, and know that his love for you shouldn’t be taken for granted.
Great post. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with.
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I think we could cut through some of the problems if no-fault divorce were eliminated. It was when that particular innovation was introduced that marriage became such a train-wreck for both parties. There I agree with him.
But, you missed my point about the whole living-together, casual hookup phenomenon: it’s that men can have a hard time even there. You say that men should be able to “abort” their responsibility to a child they did not want: good luck introducing a law like that. (And anyway, I’m opposed to abortion in all but life-threatening situations.) Meanwhile, a man who lives with but does not marry a woman, and has children with her, will find himself liable for support but less likely to get custody or a custody-sharing arrangement. Assuming he loves his children, that outcome could be tragic. And a man who has a casual sexual contact with a woman is still – and likely always will be – liable for child support if a pregnancy results from that contact.
Stop longing for the good old days. Leave that to cranky old conservative ladies like me. Back before contraceptive methods became so widely available and effective, men like you who wanted sexual freedom might well have had several stray children to support by your mid-30s, unless you were lucky and made sterile by a venereal disease. If you didn’t pony up, the state might not come after you but you could have found yourself threatened with a beating by the woman’s male relatives – even if you were rich and she was poor. Or the children could be allowed to die in orphanages, which happened rather often at one time in western history. Not good either.
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the child still has half his genetic material, and from a purely practical / evolutionary perspective the man should be invested in his offspring and ensure that his children prosper to the point of passing on more.
Absolutely not. Half of evolutionary psychology talks about men
NOT sticking around after sex so that he can stick it in other women to spread the seed. In our modern welfare state, it’s not like the kid’s gonna starve anyway. So the selfish gene is not enough to keep the father chained.
I would side with the more “conservative” view and say that if the child exists, all those responsible for its genetic contribution should have the responsibility of taking care of the child, except in cases where that responsibility is expressly written away (giving it up for adoption, etc.).
I absolutely agree. It’s just that why is ONLY the WOMAN allowed to “write away” the child (through adoption or abortion) but not the man? That strikes me as deeply unfair.
I’m not against forced abortions per se (i.e. the man having a say over the woman’s having an abortion). I think it can be a rather dumb move on the woman’s part to have a child whose father does not want it, but I’m an example of such a child — so hey.
Again, the woman isn’t being forced to abort. It’s that I just support a system by which if a woman refuses to abort, then she can’t demand child support from the man, because he had no say in whether the child should be born or not.
Regarding your story, I don’t think it would be fair to comment. There are millions of babies aborted every year, and many of them could turn out to be wonderful human beings. But you never know. It’s just that people shouldn’t be forced to pay for something they never wanted in the first place.
I’m no lover of abortion. The sexual morality undertones of the debate have polarized the sides from mutual rational understanding. Nevertheless, a better birth control would be the best solution. Until then, people shouldn’t be forced to have a child if the child isn’t developed enough to be sentient or feel pain.
I am grateful that you would be willing to put yourself and your life story out on a harsh blog like this but your anecdotal evidence just often doesn’t dovetail with the field tested psychological warfare tactics of the seduction industry. Even your comment
I’m hopeful that we as women rise above our often selfish, petty and hurtful instincts
gives it away. In an era where women aren’t forced by economic necessity to go with beta providers, they are ultimately ruled by their irrational instincts. And to rise above that requires an above average intelligence and open mindedness. Something that doesn’t exist for the majority of women.
And if you want to learn more about the Thai prostitution industry, this guy runs a phenomenal website that gives the ins and outs. Very interesting in terms of seeing how dating psychology interacts with economic disparities and huge cultural differences.
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I’m hopeful that we as women rise above our often selfish, petty and hurtful instincts, for both our own good and for the good of the men we are supposed to love. As for people’s general behavior, I see enough examples of wonderful men and women and marriages around me to not be cynical.
Hope, you’re nice. I can’t bet I’m going to find a woman like you. There are too many greedy women out there and they will love to exploit a beta like me. I know love is wonderful but I will never have to pay alimony to my hand.
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Love to me is synonymous to suffering. I damn the day that I ever watched those stupid brainwashing Disney movies and those stupid feelgood American movies. Damn you Americans and your damned media. *violently struggles to suppress her Arabic tendencies of blaming America for everything. Must be genetic ;P* I’m sure a bit of Japanese anime and other romanticism filtered through. Maybe a few British novels.
But, yes, I was just saying to my friend the other day (who just had a pregnancy scare and cheated on one boyfriend then went to another and said she both loved them. Fucked up.) about how marriage is not an institution that is meant to be based on love. It’s a fricking cult. And she did not understand this. Despite violating ‘love’ so flagrantly herself.
I’m going to tell you what the problem is. 90% of people are just plain stupid.
Stupid. That’s all it is.
A prenuptial agreement is being cautious, divorce will ruin your kids no matter how ‘agreeable’ anyone might think it is.
It’s not. Divorcees lose, and so do their children. People who enter marriages without thinking of the practicilities lose. People who enter their marriage without thinking ‘If I married the Devil himself or Lilith herself, how would I protect myself from being loyally screwed in future?’ are stupid. If they don’t do it from the beginning, then they know from the beginning that the person they’re about to marry does not love them enough to give them piece of mind, or allow them doubt, or any such wiggling room. They’ve screwed themselves, and they deserve the end result for their sheer stupidity. Wilful ignorance is no excuse.
Marriage is a risk. If you do it for love, then you’re meaning the ‘until death do us part’. Once divorce occurs, if you really, really loved this person, then you should simply DIE because you cannot live without them. This does not occur. It only occurs in a financial ‘what am I going to do with myself? Oh no, I’m getting hypertension from chronic stress’ manner.
Be smart enough to marry someone you can tether to yourself legally (or through your mafioso family connections, you get me? That’s how we do it old school. It’s through the social pressure, bambinos.). Be smart enough to not have kids until you’ve tested the waters for a while.
The law about this is wrong and the bias against men is completely unfair. If a woman wants to have sex, then why does he have to pay for it? If he actually raped her, then fair enough. Otherwise: She’s the one who decided what to do with her body, not him. For anyone to imply that men do not get royally screwed over and to bring across examples of women getting the bad end of the deal is detracting from the issue that having a man who has had all his finances stolen and no way to defend himself from a cheating, random bitch is wrong.
Not one woman should stand by this in any way, or defend it. It’s wrong, and we need to change the law and the way society looks at these things.
I apologise for the style of this. I wish I could say this in a better way. But it makes me so splutteringly angry!
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Hey, DA! I hope you’re taking notes. Me and John Smith aren’t writing about overseas action for ourselves! Knowledge is power.
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I seem to recall a distinct comment about one day handing porn to his kid at 8 or something similar… or was it some other guy’s blog?
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I could not read your whole post. Too negative, hopeless, cynical, “realistic” for my mood. All this talk about society, community, …blah, blah, blah. All bullshit words to describe nothing real whatever. The only real thing is the individual. Are you a “society, community, city, American…” or statistic of any kind? No, you’re an individual making individual choices every single day of your life.
These fact gatherings have a particular agenda and believe me, it’s not to facilitate our pursuit of happiness; though it may appear so. Individuals who’ve had horrendous experiences in marriage were on some level asking for it. And I don’t exclude myself in that statement either. Isn’t it high time we took personal responsibility for whatever fucked up situations we incur? I mean vent a little–sure, but eventually take responsibility. If it really is someone else’s fault (any of it) we’re truly in a hopeless world of shit and that just ain’t the case.
I’m not pro marriage or against it. I’m pro-make your own choices about everything in your life.
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John Smith:
“Absolutely not. Half of evolutionary psychology talks about men NOT sticking around after sex so that he can stick it in other women to spread the seed. In our modern welfare state, it’s not like the kid’s gonna starve anyway. So the selfish gene is not enough to keep the father chained.”
I largely agree with you on this one so I don’t want to stick up for Hope too much. However, the book ‘The Selfish Gene’ by Dawkins discusses how there are two competing strategies animals employ when having offspring:
1) Have a lot and don’t spend as much time on any individual one (most of animal kingdom does this I think)
2) Have a few and invest a lot more time in each one (relatively speaking, this is what humans do)
The kid may not starve without the Dad around, but, as retard said, there are a lot of studies that point to the myriad of benefits the kid(s) enjoy when raised in by two parents. Women, you kick the Fathers of your offspring out of your young childrens’s lives at the expense of those kids’s futures.
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It just came out that my friends husband cheated on her with two co workers (and slept with them both unprotected which led to her testing that has to happen now, in 3 months and then again in 6 months) and he had been hiding a gambling and cocaine habit which led to him stealing all of their savings and fleeing the state.
They seemed like the perfect couple. Rich, beautiful and she, the young feminine ideal you so often lament does not exist anymore. Pretty, into sex and cooked him dinner nightly and cookies and cake so the house would smell good for him. No kidding.
Well, he cheated on her with two fugly coke whores and left her bankrupt. Her humiliation and hurt is unbearable and to say I feel bad for her, is the understatement of the year.
Keep in mind this is a sociopath that had tricked her, her family and every male friend he met into thinking he was a “good guy” for over EIGHT YEARS.
It all came out a month ago.
So marriage can really suck for everyone…and if they had had a baby together, she would have been fucked.
Not him. Her. And the baby.
So while I know women can suck sometimes…please, PLEASE so can men.
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do you not plan on having children then?
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Thanks. Every so often I start to get sentimental but you remind me otherwise. It’s why I read your blog.
I’m just curious: a woman can’t do the same thing to an alpha if she finds a guy who’s more alpha? You can have all the game in the world but there are always richer guys than you.
Also, with the declining stigma, at what point are men going to start turning to homosexuality?
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Hey, DA! I hope you’re taking notes. Me and John Smith aren’t writing about overseas action for ourselves! Knowledge is power.
I’m not attracted to most Asian women. Flat tits and ass don’t mix.
Irregardless, as much as I hype prostitution as the answer, I just simply couldn’t go thru with it due to the guilt of having sex with an unwilling partner who will not enjoy the process.
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Even so, a number of Labour MPs have been so seduced by the imagined Swedish experience that they have co-sponsored an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill that would allow councils and police chiefs to set up zones in which persons buying sex could be prosecuted. And Labour’s deputy leader and Minister for Women, Harriet Harman, has launched a consultation suggesting that an adoption of the Swedish system could “tackle the demand” that lies behind the sex trade. Their belief seems to be that there is something inherently bad and socially unacceptable about the purchase of sex, quite beyond the issues of trafficking and safety.
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Sorry, I cannot even believe how cynical 9/10ths of you people are!
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” Cockiness, humor, turning the tables, not taking her shit, flirting with other women while wifey is watching… these are the improvements in character that will keep a wife’s love for her husband strong.”
You have to be joking, right? You’re saying GOOD will come of this? Extraordinary!! Extraordinarily ignorant.
“Either the laws change (and I personally favor elimination of no fault divorce as a start) or men should heed my advice and stay clear of the altar. ”
Sorry, all the laws in the world won’t keep people from getting what they’re consciously or subconsciously asking for. It’s like if you divided all the money in the world equally amongst everyone, in a matter of years it would end up back in the same hands it started out in. It’s called Law of Attraction and it’s like gravity. It works even if you don’t believe in it. And don’t bother watching The Secret to learn about it. They’re not giving 1/10th of the story.
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56, David: Irregardless is avoided by careful users of English.
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TTFN, I appreciate the chance to rendezvous with each and every one here and sincerely thank you for your contribution to my journey here on planet earth. Am leaving you with this link:
http://www.abraham-hicks.com/
Happy trails.
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This post is very hot, it is high ranked at our site (daily weblog, weblog post ranking site). See http://blogrank.info/indirect-page-to-blog-report/ for more infomation
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Marriage increases men’s life expectancy by more than 5 years, significantly improves mental and physical health, decreases likelihood of suicide, increases life satisfaction. The Game is a fine thing when you are 20, but when you are over 50 (and that means soon), the only thing that can give you consolation facing ageing and death is watching your grandchildren grow.
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in the article quoted:
When a wife wants out, it is usually not out of selfishness or senseless cruelty. Sometimes the love simply runs out. Husbands should do what they can to keep that love alive.
unbelievable.
an entire article devoted to showing how badly men can be screwed by selfish bitches – and then the article turns around and tells the men to change their behavior?
fucking unbelievable.
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#63
Marriage increases men’s life expectancy by more than 5 years
horseshit.
all the major studies making such claims have been debunked on one of two grounds:
(1) they take overall cohorts, rather than age-matched cohorts – meaning that the unmarried group includes a shitload of infants and children (whose life expectancies are, of course, somewhat shorter than those of people who’ve already made it to their 20s/30s**).
(2) more commonly, marriage is conflated with demographics. most males at extremely high risk of early death are in certain demographics*** in which marriage is not exactly the standard.
**your life expectancy increases by a small increment with each day you don’t die.
***please don’t ask me to explain this.
decreases likelihood of suicide
are you really this stupid?
divorced men, who are 9x more likely to commit suicide, are classified as ‘unmarried’, but their suicidal tendencies can hardly be attributed to their singleness.
increases life satisfaction.
the same argument that destroys the suicide argument kills this one too.
The Game is a fine thing when you are 20, but when you are over 50 (and that means soon), the only thing that can give you consolation facing ageing and death is watching your grandchildren grow.
clue for the clueless: wait to spill about what warms your elderly little heart until your little heart is actually elderly. until such time, shut up. (in the unlikely event that you are actually over fifty, i retract this comment)
hugh hefner seems to be finding plenty of consolation in things other than his grandchildren.
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hilarious. law of attraction. I lol’ed.
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Man, I’m just amazed and impressed that 99% of the comments have managed to stay on point and stick with the topic concerning marriage.
Oh yeah. P.S
Rape
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http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_4_why_marriage_is.html
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DA:
“I’m not attracted to most Asian women. Flat tits and ass don’t mix.”
Thai chicks actually are somewhat more endowed in my personal experience than this. You really have to try it to find out.
“Irregardless, as much as I hype prostitution as the answer, I just simply couldn’t go thru with it due to the guilt of having sex with an unwilling partner who will not enjoy the process.”
Well, a true professional never makes you feel like this. Keep in mind that most of the chicks you’ll get to in prostitution have had a lot of other guys b4 u. They had to keep them happy to get paid. More importantly, they had to keep them happy to not (in rare cases) get beat up or killed. So, they’ll be well experienced in ‘taking care’ of you and not letting you get particularly anxious. Most of them anyway. Chances are you wil absolutely enjoy it.
Also, I knew I was giving money to chicks who were bettering their lives in many cases. One of my favorites a few years back in Thailand used the money to help her Mom’s rice farm in Issan (sic?). You’re giving their families an opportunity to lead a better life, too.
Really, you need to consider it as a viable option. I strongly encourage it to others who are sick of American chicks.
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Thai chicks actually are somewhat more endowed in my personal experience than this. You really have to try it to find out.
I know that I’m conflating Asian ethnic groups, but from what I’ve seen of my brother’s Filipina friends, it’s possible, but they’re still less common. Plus the photos that I’ve seen of Thai women don’t help either.
Plus, my tastes in women have leaned towards hyper-sexualized pornstarish tastes that some have bordered on what some have called transvestite. Lots of make up, big tits, big asses, long fake acrylic nails, high heels and slutty clothes are what turns me on. Thai prostitutes just don’t seem to pull off that look.
Well, a true professional never makes you feel like this.
I understand that these girls may be well trained at what they’re doing, but I don’t want a girl who isn’t really enjoying the experience. I don’t want fake orgasms and fake smiles, but I want genuine pleasure and enjoyment on her part. I want to be able to kiss her and eat her pussy with her enjoying the experience and without fear of catching an STD. A girl who sucks me off so she can pay her pimp without getting a black eye is not my idea of fun.
Also, I knew I was giving money to chicks who were bettering their lives in many cases.
At that point, I’d rather just give them the money directly without the sex. Less work, less feelings of guilt on my part.
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DA:
“I understand that these girls may be well trained at what they’re doing, but I don’t want a girl who isn’t really enjoying the experience. I don’t want fake orgasms and fake smiles, but I want genuine pleasure and enjoyment on her part.”
I dunno. I feel this is a somewhat rigid viewpoint.
“I want to be able to kiss her and eat her pussy with her enjoying the experience and without fear of catching an STD. A girl who sucks me off so she can pay her pimp without getting a black eye is not my idea of fun.”
There is always a risk, but I think the rates of STDs in countries in Asia or Latin America are less than America. Take a shower afterward, use a condom all the time, and use listerine immediately during intercourse if you go muff diving. Still, there is a risk but such is life.
“At that point, I’d rather just give them the money directly without the sex. Less work, less feelings of guilt on my part.”
This is what a co- worker told me, too. My response was who are you going to help? We have millions, if not billions, of people that would qualify for assistance. Why not tie aid to the pleasure they give you?
Besides, not all the American mongers who went to Thailand actually wanted a girlfriend. Some of them got one anyway. You might go there with the same mindset and come away with a relationship that you actually want.
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I dunno. I feel this is a somewhat rigid viewpoint.
That’s just the kind of person that I am. I really can’t see myself using a girl just to get off and not care about her enjoyment of the process. If she doesn’t enjoy it, I would be better off masturbating.
There is always a risk, but I think the rates of STDs in countries in Asia or Latin America are less than America. Take a shower afterward, use a condom all the time, and use listerine immediately during intercourse if you go muff diving. Still, there is a risk but such is life.
Given the so-so state of healthcare and government tracking of infection rates, I would give pause to trusting such statistics.
In short, the risk is just simply too high for my tastes.
This is what a co- worker told me, too. My response was who are you going to help? We have millions, if not billions, of people that would qualify for assistance. Why not tie aid to the pleasure they give you?
I understand that the money you’re giving is helping these women and their families, but isn’t there a way you could do that without fucking them? Maybe I view this from a different perspective since my family is from a poorer third world nation, and the idea of sex for money from some foreigner seems rather creepy and elitist to me.
Besides, not all the American mongers who went to Thailand actually wanted a girlfriend. Some of them got one anyway. You might go there with the same mindset and come away with a relationship that you actually want.
But do I want some compliant Thai woman who’ll do anything to please me? I’m not interested in marrying a doormat, and an imported Thai wife/girlfriend screams “loser male” to everybody in the States.
Still, this is all highly theoretical since I’d imagine that like much of the world, there is no market for (wimpy) Catholic black Caribbean men in nominally Buddihist Thailand.
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this post here is the beta to your alphaness:
http://startingoverat24.blogspot.com/2008/01/post-relationship-guilt.html
i wish there was a way to make you and him switch commenters and watch the fur fly.
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@David Alexander, have you tried getting into pick up and transforming into a fun and cool guy that girls want?
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David Alexander, have you tried getting into pick up and transforming into a fun and cool guy that girls want?
No because it feels really weird to do that. It’s not my natural operating state. A guy who’s into riding trains doesn’t magically transform into a fun and cool guy when the things that fun and cool guys do are not interesting to me. It just requires way too much of a brain and personality shift. 🙂
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T – i couldn’t make it past “i really should have paid for half her birth control” on that blog.
what a puling nancyboy.
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i wish there was a way to make you and him switch commenters and watch the fur fly.
I’d go over there, but I’m not alpha enough.
A guy who’s into riding trains doesn’t magically transform into a fun and cool guy when the things that fun and cool guys do are not interesting to me. It just requires way too much of a brain and personality shift.
Yeah, I know. Sports are so f***ing dull. And girls are, honestly, pretty boring. Your feelings, your feelings, blah blah blah. I know they’re very important to you but I’m just not wired that way. This is why I’m pro-homosexuality. Men can just have sex and women can just talk about their feelings. Everyone’s happy.
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– please, PLEASE read the comments. you will be nauseous.
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the art of pickup – you’ve got down to a science. but to apply your rubric to love, relationships and marriage? doesn’t this cross the rubicon of your expertise?
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Many women are soulless, conniving, and selfish. (Yes, there are some bad men too.) I want to get married, ONLY because I want to have kids. The key is to have prenup AND have a long engagement where you make SURE that your future wife has good character. No way is 100% but lots of guys are stupid and look past obvious clues. Marry someone with a close-knit family with no divorces in it. This will make her feel social presssure to stay married. It’s not foolproof, but it’s the best I can think of. NEVER EVER be like the guys in this story. If I was one of them, I’d at least burn/destroy ALL of the ex’s shit, and make it my mission in life to cause hell for her. Men need to have a backbone.
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miss lord, you’d be surprised at my… breadth… of expertise.
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So don’t get married. Why try to convince everyone else?
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prove it.
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Prove what?
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Jack, I respect your take on men, marriage and, perhaps, the only good reason for men to get married anymore. I think your advice on how men should approach it is sound, too.
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Oh, that was for H I think.
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you have stretched the meaning of the word beyond the breaking point.
Different people have different definitions. My usage of words is somewhat loose, and I’ve always despised arguments that are based on pure semantics.
Other women do find my husband attractive, but if he flirts in front of me it would be quite overt or I wouldn’t even notice. I am quite blissfully oblivious to many real life things. My husband says it’s a blessing I can tune so many things out, because I can tune out his annoying habits, too.
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hope weaseled:
Implications and statements are different. If you read implications into my statements, I can’t really help that.
hope, you’ve used this line of counterargument before. it’s lame. when you write in such a way that your meaning can be easily misinterpreted by large numbers of people, YOU are responsible for getting your meaning across more accurately.
for example: a couple hundred = 200, not 700.
I read into your following statement as implying the advocation of humiliation:
if you read inplications into my statements, i can’t really help that.
touche!
Cockiness, humor, turning the tables, not taking her shit, flirting with other women while wifey is watching… these are the improvements in character that will keep a wife’s love for her husband strong.
At least, I would be humiliated if my husband flirted with other women in front of me. He may act “beta,” but I treat him with the same kind of tender care and adoration with which he treats me. Constant psychological warfare is too tiring.
if you think flirting is an act of humilation then you have stretched the meaning of the word beyond the breaking point.
in fact, light breezy flirting with other women at a party will generate loin-burning attraction in a guy’s girlfriend. women are turned on by men who are loved by other women. this is a basic tenet of the mechanism of human female attraction.
ps: by “flirting”, i do not mean “tonguing her down”.
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Jack, why even get married if you need to move so many mountains to feel at least somewhat confident that it won’t end in divorce? (And even then, there’s no guarantee.) What’s stopping you from having children in the context of a committed, monogamous relationship that is not a marriage? Surely it can’t be societal convention, because societal convention is clearly fucked up if it accepts the prevailing attitude that marriage is forever, unless you just happen to change your mind, and tax breaks hardly seem like a worthwhile incentive. So why bother? That’s not rhetorical. I’m genuinely curious.
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Reggie, if a marriage ends in divorce, an ex-husband is more likely to get custody or visitation rights with his children than an ex-boyfriend is (although of course mothers still have the edge, for whatever reason); divorce courts will be more inclined to see him as a serious, intentional father, rather than a “babydaddy”. That’s reason number one to marry rather than cohabit with the mother of your children. Reason number two is that when children know that their parents were married (even if they have subsequently divorced) they feel reassured that both their parents were prepared, as it were, to make a nest for them – in short, that both parents wanted them. The children of unmarried fathers are more likely to wonder whether their fathers really wanted them at all. Check out the websites at familyscholars.com and marriagedebate.com to get a variety of statistics on the subject of marriage, cohabitation, divorce, and children.
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Ah, so reason number 1 for men to get married is to improve the odds of getting visitation rights after the eventual divorce. Hmm.
Reason two has merit, but it’s a function of societal expectation, not anything intrinsic to the relationship between father and children. Still, I’m not denying that outside factors can have a powerful influence.
I’m not even necessarily anti-marriage across the board — I just think there are a lot of people for whom marriage is a bad idea, and yet they do it anyway.
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Reggie, it’s a fact that marriage, although certainly unstable enough nowadays, remains more stable than cohabitation. Cohabiting partners break up more frequently.
Reason No. 1 may be odd, but marriage has more weight in family court than cohabitation does. By the way, that, if you like, really is a function of society’s expectations. Reason No. 2, which you describe as such, is in fact more a function of children’s understanding of the “weight” of a public promise. That promise may have been broken by divorce, but it suggests to them that both parties were serious about the relationship from the start. Anyway, children usually have enough understanding of sexuality by the time they reach age 10 or so to know that pregnancy can sometimes be accidental. The fact that their parents chose to marry suggests to them that child-bearing was always intended to be a part of the relationship. Even though it’s true that today many people marry without intending to have children, most married people still plan to start families.
Anyway, I don’t think that everyone ought to marry. I just think that people intending to have children should.
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lawyers… what people think… it’s all all so abstract in the South… everyone down here tend to settle things via shotgun… my wife can break 50-100 clays at a shot, that’s helps keeps me focused, especially when I’m not listening to the total crap that people say… she no doubt has similar concerns about me… my daughter needn’t worry about “I don’t think that everyone ought to marry. I just think that people intending to have children should”… If my daughter has a child and there is no marriage, someone is going to die. My son is more complicated, morally that is… as a Christian I counsel marriage, but today marriage is a disaster waiting to happen to a young man. :#
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Wow that’s depressing.
Drink up mates!
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Read and heed:
http://www.supportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html
Excerpts:
“A woman’s fraudulent misrepresentation regarding the use of birth control or the ability to become pregnant, however, has never shielded the father from child support liability.”
“What if, however, the man is legally incapable of “intending” to have sexual intercourse because he is underage? Is he still liable for child support? Again, the answer is yes.
In every case that has addressed the issue, the court has held that a man who was underage at the time of the conception of the child, and was therefore a victim of statutory rape, is nonetheless liable for child support.”
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“The four sirens of the sexual apocalypse together have created the perfect sociological storm where a woman has every incentive in the world to ditch a husband to follow the whims of her heart once his usefulness has been exhausted.”
that is fucking POETRY!! H at his best!
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Given the down side of a divorce with kids, the vasectomy is cheap insurance. No guy ought to graduate from high school without one.
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***
It just came out that my friends husband cheated on her with two co workers (and slept with them both unprotected which led to her testing that has to happen now, in 3 months and then again in 6 months) and he had been hiding a gambling and cocaine habit which led to him stealing all of their savings and fleeing the state.
***
***
Keep in mind this is a sociopath that had tricked her, her family and every male friend he met into thinking he was a “good guy” for over EIGHT YEARS.
***
Men who massively over-gamble, screw ugly women, and have a coke habit self-destruct in much less time than eight years. Of course, it is equally impossible to hide such wild behaviour for eight years. So, when did this NEW BEHAVIOUR start. When did this man decide to destroy his life? What started it?
Really, women talk about how “all women” have “more empathy” than men, but even my fake “look I’m just running through what probably happened” “empathy” seems to be a lot better. I’m kinda wondering about that whole “women have more empathy” thing.
Really, she was his wife, if he decided to have some long-drawn out(almost female) “I’m going to wreck my life” super-crash then why didn’t she notice that something had changed when he decided he hated his life and was going to destroy it? Why exactly did he hate his life? What set him off?
Shouldn’t she have some idea? “He was always like that” is a cheap cop-out.
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Shannon 2
“Never marry someone if you believe they would take you for a ride if you divorced.”
I was sure she wouldn’t. She did anyway, to the best of her ability (which was pretty good). I fought back hard, and there were no kids so it could have been way worse. Though I thought the property division was mondo unfair. (New York is not a community property or automatic 50/50 state but rather an “equitable distribution” one which I thought sounded much fairer. Distribution according to contribution, both economic and non-economic e.g. raising kids. It’s not like she gave up a career to raise our kids or anything. Instead her work while high in psychic rewards just didn’t pay much and instead she lived well economically through me. Turns out equitable distribution is basically only used against lower earning men, not women. Natch. Disgusting.)
However going through the process lead me to research what would happen if I had say young kids, and also what I could and couldn’t have done to protect myself , through e.g. a pre-nup or not marrying – with and without kids.
I was divorced 15 years ago and have never remarried. I’ve had four live together for more than a year (as long as 4.5yrs) relationships since, and several scores of short term sex relationships (to supplement the several scores before marriage). That has been much better.
If there are no kids, the marriage is fairly brief, the man earns little money, or they both earn similar amounts then American divorce theft is usually fairly minimal. It’s certainly SUPPOSED to be under the laws, but divorce courts and the divorce bar truly are amazingly aligned against men’s interests IN THIS COUNTRY and to some extent the rest of the Anglosphere, which has tended to follow us in feminist law unfortunately. Different story in France, Germany, Italy, Latin America, etc.
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A society where provider Betas are treated so poorly is a society that CANNOT survive. Period.
Provider Betas are the most honorable, self-sacrificing, stabilizing members of society. Sure, they are Beta. They are what hold society together.
Make it hard for provider Betas to form families, and this society is finished. Ironically, the feminists who made this happen will be the ones who suffer the most. Who will defend feminists from Islamc Law, when Betas are no longer duty-bound to do so?
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Prenup or no prenup, in the USA you will automatically get a restraining order against you if your wife is willing to (falsely) claim physical violence. You will get kicked out of your own home immediately, and will lose claim to it in the divorce.
If the woman is a foreign national, she has the added incentive of being put on the fast track for citizenship. Falsely claiming violence and then blackmailing the sucker is now an increasingly popular scam that eastern European women are using against American men.
google: VAWA (thanks to uber-beta VP Joe Biden)
Listen to him. Don’t get married.
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Not only should you not marry her, you shouldn’t even move in together. Like was said above, one spurious aspersion against you and you’re out on the street and she’s loading your hard earned possessions into a dumpster. So not worth it. Plus you avoid issues of commonlaw if applicable. At the very least you should have separate levels of a duplex or something with separate entrances and addresses. If you must live proximally this is a good way to go.
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Essay:
http://dontmarry.wordpress.com/
Forum:
http://dontgetmarried.proboards.com/index.cgi
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Great post, I agree 100%.
Men need to wise up and follow the following golden rules of dealing with women given the current legal setup:
1. Do not marry.
2. Do not cohabit.
3. Do not have children.
4. Control your genetic materials at all times (yes there are cases where cupcake has impregnated herself with his used condom and the court has hit him up for child support).
Follow these guidelines and life will be good. Ignore them, and the female-rigged system will chew you up and spit you out.
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Control your genetic materials at all times (yes there are cases where cupcake has impregnated herself with his used condom and the court has hit him up for child support
This is what they make Tabasco Miniatures for, empty one into each used condom when you wash up, and if she pulls this you’ll know by the howling coming from the restroom. Lacking that, flush them. It may plug the toilet on occasion, but a plumber is cheaper than an unwanted child.
http://countrystore.tabasco.com/prodinfo.asp?number=00006
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wow if i was an american male i will never get married especially if i was rich.this shit dont happen in my country.when yall get divorced u go ur seperate ways n nothing is given to anyone other than child custody n child support
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[…] Published July 2, 2009 Feminismus Leave a Comment Tags: gender equality Don’t get married: “The stark realities of divorce paint a picture overwhelmingly tilted against a man’s […]
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This article is so true.
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I was confuse there for a litttle bit but I finally got it. Sorry I’m a bit slow. Thanks for the info, I’ll definately going to try it at least.
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Courts don’t always honor prenups.
How sickening that flirting with other women keeps your wife interested. Pathetic creatures.
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As a long time married man, my opinion is:
Marriage is worthless. It seems attractive when young, but, that’s just hormones talking. Make money and screw high class hookers. Get educated. Women are boring.
Kids are good. Doubtful if marriage is worth the kids. There must be a better way.
As a response to all this marital wealth rape, the boys are only marrying girls they don’t have to support or put through school. Hell, the girls make as much as them, or more, and no kids. When they divorce, the boys should be OK. Which, will, of course, reduce the divorce rate.
The girls who aren’t making money? Either marry some old fool or face a bleak economic future. The next round of layoffs might actually target women.
Hey. I don’t like it either, but, this is the dystopia the women have built. It stinks and can’t last, but, it’s our world.
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@ neu
The thing is, these so-called “Laws of Attraction” of his which supposedly works so mysteriously and so flawlessly, only works on straight women, not bulldykes like myself, and the real mechanisms at work he doesn’t understand and misidentifies as female muffdiving. As The entire PUA community doesn’t realize that it works in reverse too to turn lesbians into cat hoarding spinsters with dusty vaginas.
There are indeed universal laws of attraction, and one of them is that the most bulldykey, sexually repulsive, and psychologically suited for years of softball and rollerderby are indescribably drawn to eachother, like polarized labia. They have a gift for finding eachother in the scissor position, letting eachother in with the aid of penis mimics, despite what may seem to be the odds, and suctioning together despite what no one else would want or put up with. The real mechanism underlying it?
Lesbian + butch lesbian = clitoris the size of the oklahoma panhandle.
[editor: susan i have never seen someone so bracingly honest on this blog before. bravo!]
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0186151/
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[…] Read this and ponder. […]
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Loving this post. So true.
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Where’s the upside?
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[…] SUGGESTED READING: Don’t Get Married by Chateau Categories: Proverbs Tags: alpha male, dating advice, marriage, wedding Comments (0) Trackbacks (0) Leave a comment Trackback […]
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If you marry, you are automatically a beta, at least to the woman you married. A married man, ipso facto, cannot be alpha.
What kind of douchebag gets married nowadays anyhow, man or woman? That’s like using a rotary phone, nobody under the age of 40 even knows what it is.
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huh,
That’s odd. Just Michigan? Because My ex-husband had been claiming the kids for years. I have custodial, always did. He paid some child support, and in NH you can claim child support. Also, the first year, we were going to claim jointly because he he spent less than 6 months wit his children at that time… so, we made an agreement. He never came around, and defrauded the government. He was an absentee father for more than 6 months but claimed them.
I’m not sure if he is still claiming my daughter because he doesn’t bother to see, or talk to her, and hasn’t paid more than one month child support.
I actually have to go an hour away to court because he filed a change of support request for unemployment. But, given today… if he is, there’s not anything I can do about it. So many are out of work.
Another point? The expenses…
Sorry but if you walk out on your family… marry another woman in less than a month after divorce..? Too bad. Too bad anyway.
Once you decide to make life it’s up to you to take care of that life.
I agree with the marriage thing. I used to believe in marriage. Even after the divorce… knowing it isn’t like that everywhere… But, I’ve changed my thinking over time. And, I can not imagine ever doing it again, lol.
People have to think long and hard before they have children. Married or not.
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[…] Any man in John Partilla’s income bracket would be foolish to get married at all under the current Marriage 2.0 and Divorce 2.0 US legal […]
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“Dr. John Gottman, five to one you are a dumbfuck. Glorifying their wives and putting them on pedestals is exactly what cost these hopeless betas their marriages. What they need to do is challenge their wives, not kiss their expanding asses with a stream of compliments. Cockiness, humor, turning the tables, not taking her shit, flirting with other women while wifey is watching… these are the improvements in character that will keep a wife’s love for her husband strong. As long as men are following the advice of these “social scientists” they will never unlock the mystery of what attracts women to men and they will suffer the consequences.”
Wrong, wrong and wrong again. Women will quietly tolerate this crap until one day they will be stone cold out of love with the perpetrator and will move on. This is exactly the type of behaviour that leads to divorce after 10 or 20 years of marriage and the men will say “I never saw it coming”. Women will never, ever accept a man flirting in their presence with another woman. How fucking dumb do you have to be?
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Anyone who marries in this day and age is just crazy anyway. Society is totally anti-marriage. I despair for children actually as marriage used to be the best environment to raise them and now it’s probably the worst. Shunted from pillar to post, fighting, blended families, ugh!
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On thing missing from your analysis: ubiquitous child abuse.
Forget about being a good mother. A major problem is that the cunt will vent her unlimited reservoir anger on your little tot.
Do you think they are ready to have children?
Stoically sacrifice their narcissistic craven souls for the idealistic endeavor of your offspring?
OR
Do you think that they nihilistic and incapable of handling responsibility and will ultimately fall prey to child abuse or self-destructive behavior as the frustration mounts?
Have a kid and expect:
1) ignore you and serve the child
2) get a divorce and get child support
3) get fat
4) vent her anger at her kid with abuse
5) vent anger at you
It is a russian roulette game. Have a kid and then find out what devastating consequence it will have on your life.
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LOL @ “law of attraction” hahaha. “Magick! I tell ya!”
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[…] SUGGESTED READING: Don’t Get Married by Chateau […]
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just wanted to say that I found this article and especially the comments following it very insightful and educational.
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Thanks.
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[…] Millions of men, even some who are fully aware of the legal and biological reality of the divorce industry and female hypergamy, will eventually sign their lives away in one-sided marriage contracts. Some will be lucky and live decent lives, free of divorce lawyers, false domestic abuse accusations, infidelity and unjust child custody rulings. Most will not. […]
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[…] Millions of men, even some who are fully aware of the legal and biological reality of the divorce industry and female hypergamy, will eventually sign their lives away in one-sided marriage contracts. Some will be lucky and live decent lives, free of divorce lawyers, false domestic abuse accusations, infidelity and unjust child custody rulings. Most will not. […]
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