A local DC girl wrote a post about withholding sex in an effort to strong arm her boyfriend to marry her. (Note: The original post has been taken down by the author but you can google cache to find it.)
Let’s start this off with a patented maxim:
Maxim #25: Withholding sex is the tactic of a woman who has already lost. It is mutually assured destruction.
If a woman is withholding sex, she may win a few battles with a beta boyfriend but she has lost the war. It’s a scorched earth strategy that fails on two levels.
One, it only works on guys who can’t score elsewhere. That is to say, undesirable guys. Pissant betas with no alternative options will step right in line yapping yes-dears like spineless whimpering curs once the snatch spigot is turned off. I have seen it with my own eyes… friends who suddenly have to spend Saturdays at Pier 1 or Crate & Barrel pawing through throw pillow bins because the girlfriend pouted and clamped her legs shut. Using sex as a weapon WILL work if the enemy (and that’s what he is if the relationship has gotten to this point) is weak and defenseless. Like “The Rules”, there is a certain amount of tried and true cynicism that will get a woman what she wants… superficially.
I say “superficially” because the seed of a scheming woman’s own unhappiness is contained in the success of her manipulative strategy. A woman who breaks her man by withholding sex is a woman who will never truly respect that man. She will come to resent him for letting her get her way through such devious means. And she will see him as weak, not to be trusted. How can you trust a man who would sacrifice his dignity just to keep the vagina flowing?
An alpha who knows how to pick up women will simply walk away from any girlfriend trying to pull the “my pussy is GOLD!” routine on him. Her selfishness will have backfired.
Two, if it works it merely extends a relationship — sometimes into marriage — that is built on a shallow foundation which is guaranteed to eventually give out. If the love is more than a one-way street, she will never view sex as a bargaining chip and he will never make her so unhappy that she would seriously entertain the idea of commoditizing her cunt. So let’s say this chick gets her way — she locks up her pussy for a few weeks and he caves, buying her an expensive engagement ring. Sounds romantic, eh? If I were a betting man, I’d short sell this marriage.
Practically speaking, the withholding sex strategy is a maneuver that has lost much of its effectiveness as a means to corral a foot-dragger into proposing marriage thanks to all-access, all-the-time, all-you-can-want internet porn. A lot of men can wait out a girl playing these games by resorting to porn. And men who have been with many women, the ones who don’t need porn, the ones all women want, won’t wait long at all. They’ll wander off in search of fresh meat the moment she’s strapped on the chastity belt.
Men can play this game, too. I’ve “withheld” sex from women, not intentionally, because I was tired or sated from sex with other women. Let me tell you, turning the tables like this will REALLY fuck with a girl’s head. They take it personally, like you just left a turd in every one of her shoes.
Girls must be hardwired to completely freak out if their sexual favors are rejected. That is because they have little experience dealing with direct sexual rejection. Men are built to handle sexual rejection better. Therefore, men’s egos are stronger than women’s egos.
Update:
VK made a good point in the comments about how withholding sex can become a habit if the woman sees it is working on her man. Capitulating even once to such a woman can lead down a dangerous slippery slope.
It starts with roping the guy into marriage, then the next thing you know she’s making an impenetrable crotch fortress out of the bedsheets because you didn’t spread the cream cheese on her bagel the way she likes it.
My advice to any man who senses he is being victimized by a sex withholder — run away as fast as you can and stay away. If she wins, she wins for life. You’ll wind up begging for sex every freaking day you and her are together.
You: “Can we have sex now?”
Her: “Did you finish your chores?”
Think about it.
I just had to visit, and now I think you are just a little nuts. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is a prerequisite for living in this area. That and being ugly.
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A little-known but scientifically proven* fact: shaved women are the most likely to withhold sex!
* = okay, I just made it up, in keeping with my fetish
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Have you actually read the Rules? I usually agree with what you say, but as far as the Rules goes, I think it gets a lot of the same bad rap that pickup material gets…people who haven’t read it assume it’s cynical and manipulative. Out of curiosity, I took it out of my public library, and I will say that it actually has a lot of the same principles as pickup, and it wasn’t what I expected. It’s not geared toward women betaizing a man so much as earning an alpha’s respect. In fact, it chastizes betaizing behavior as something women should avoid at all costs.
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“A lot of men can wait out a girl playing these games by resorting to porn.”
And then the girl gets pissed at the guy for looking at porn and breaks up with him.
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Isn’t a woman’s withholding of sex a classic case of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face?
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One, it only works on guys who can’t score elsewhere.
David Alexander is the biggest loser beta male in the world, and I won’t stand for a sexless relationship. I’d bail that sinking ship so fast…
So yes, I agree with you. A sexless relationship is worse than having female friends since you have the “undue burdens”, but with none of the benefits. Thanks to porn, men like myself don’t have to go through that indignity.
BTW, Wellesley Queen was big on “training” by withholding sex. Of course, that’s why she was a friend, and never the g/f or fuckbuddy. Hell, it probably explains why she was fruitless in her efforts to woo that Argentine “alpha” male…
And then the girl gets pissed at the guy for looking at porn and breaks up with him.
Maybe it’s better in the long-term.
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OC girl’s post was disturbing and, if it represents the norm, I’m glad I found the woman in my life.
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Arjewtino, the post wasn’t disturbing so much as depressing. It’s one thing to lose interest in sex due to problems in the relationship, that’s sad but natural. It’s quite another to attempt to resolve problems in the relationship by witholding sex. That is actively malicious and controlling.
From her perspective, he had all the power in the relationship because he wasn’t proposing and she was waiting. That’s blatantly untrue, as she held the real trump card: she could always move out.
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Enough with the alpha and beta’s already….
Now that’s out of the way:
Two, if it works it merely extends a relationship — sometimes into marriage – that is built on a shallow foundation which is guaranteed to eventually give out.
Agreed 100%, I also found her post incredibly depressing because she was making it out that the end-all be-all of life is to get married. She needs to give her poor boyfriend a break.
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Couple thoughts…
1. If you are trying to get a man to spend the rest of his life with you, wouldn’t you want to blow him away with sex instead of withholding? How is taking away a man’s pleasure supposed to get him to commit? Her strategy is poorly designed, a copy of other women who are also failing with getting men to propose.
2. Assuming she thinks withholding sex will get him to commit, does she REALLY want a man who is so easy to manipulate in such a life changing decision? Seems like she is just screening for a weak, stupid husband who is pathetic without options. Great catch!
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After reading her post (Just take the whole url, google it and click cache) it seems like she’s more interested in getting married than she is in this guy. Let’s leave out the withholding sex issue, it seems that most agree that makes no sense, but what about setting these artificial time constraints based on some cultural norm?
If any woman tells me things need to be serious by X date, I won’t ask for an extension, but instead hit the open market again. What I don’t get is that since she’s so capable of doing this, why she gave him an extension? It shows that she’s breakable and weak, why would anyone believe deadline # 2 is worth anything or that she won’t cave on her no sex promise.
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Alias Clio:
1. You don’t have to say yes to any type of sex, but withholding for no apparent reason will result in me disappearing for the same reason.
2. If you always expect things to go in your favor then you will live a very sad life. Be prepared that the guy isn’t interested in marriage either right when he meets you or after X years of dating. It needs to be a mutual decision, or the divorce rate continues to increase. Hmmm Maybe that’s why it does….
3. Marriage is totally different from sexual interest or again it should be. I know I don’t propose to every girl I bang, otherwise the K St. Lawyers would take even more of my money.
4. If you have no personality and offer me nothing than your looks, then yes you have no chance of real happiness in a marriage. If you do have more, concentrate on that instead of trying to control the situation, and forcing me to do something that I either don’t want to do or aren’t ready to do.
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My major problem was if she withheld for this, would she do it again for something else if he agreed. First a wedding or no sex, then a new house or no sex, then a new car or no sex, a vacation or no sex. I don’t see this as a one time thing, kinda like a coke habbit that could get out of controle.
Honestly it scared the shit out of me. I couldn’t think about being with a woman who try and FORCE me into making such a huge life change. I think and maybe I’m speaking for every man on the planet but, I should WANT to spend the rest of my life with someone not a “you can get with this (vagina) or you could get with that (hit the streets fool)” type of thang.
But that’s just me, I’m black
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Arjewtino was right, disturbing, I think it gave into men’s fears everywhere that all women really want is a ring and they’ll go to any level to get it.
Too bad all guys want is sex and we’ll go to any level to get that too.
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Yup, agree with VK. Once she uses that tactic to get something as big of a deal as marriage, you know she’s going to pull that ish for menial stuff too.
Women like that should be branded on the forehead so that their shame is revealed to the world and their vagina’s sewn shut.
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how can you blame any woman who tries to press a man for a commitment, even by what you consider to be the unfair, “manipulative” tactic of withholding sex, issuing ultimatums, or threatening to end the relationship?
Let’s take a married heterosexual couple living together. The man works, the woman does not, and he has total control over access to money. The woman notices that, say, her winter coat is getting threadbare, so she asks her husband for money to buy a new one. It’s not a frivolous request; she genuinely needs a new coat.
What would you say if the husband refused to give her any money unless she agreed to have sex with him? You’d probably call him a manipulative prick who is treating her like a whore. Well, when a woman withholds sex, she’s treating her husband like a John — and herself like a prostitute, exchanging sex in return for getting what she wants, be that a new coat, a fistful of cash, or a marriage proposal.
I’m not saying all the male attitudes on this blog are fair, but there is simply no defense for women who purposefully withhold sex.
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Couldn’t a woman (or more rarely a man) who received a response like that conclude that the man valued sex more than he valued her?
The sex is obviously why the couple are in a relationship, IMHO. Otherwise, they would only be friends…
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Reggie, what can I say? There are many assumptions in your last post that indicate a world-view so different from mine (no offense) that it’s impossible for me tackle your comment without challenging each and every premise.
Regarding the situation you describe: first, a wife is supposed to say yes to her husband’s sexual requests (and vice versa), unless illness really makes it impossible, according to my understanding of marriage. If she is in the habit of saying no, the marriage is in trouble. Second, a man who is in charge of the household economy is supposed to give his wife what she needs to survive. If he is in the habit of saying no, the marriage is already in trouble. Worse, from a purely humane perspective, it would be wrong to withhold the means of survival from a dependent, whether or not one is married to her/him. So I can’t use this set-up to feel my way into your perspective on the giving/withholding of sex. The whole setup is wrong from the start.
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And yes, Shannon, you’ve put my point succinctly.
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Alias Clio: I agree that if a man follows the game, the rules, natural intuition, whatever, that the man does gain the majority of control over 99% of women.
But what if the guy doesn’t know any better? In that case, which is true amongst 80-90% of men, they end up becoming doing things that they don’t want to because they’re forced into thinking that the only way to please a woman is to do everything she says without question.
Essentially women have control over 80-90% of the male population, (in America/Western Countries). Of the remaining 10-20% that understand/know the rules, a great many of them can’t actually act upon their knowledge, their only able to talk about it, because of their own paralysis and fears of rejection.
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Alias, that was more of a hypothetical thought experiment. I didn’t mean it as a literal real-world scenario — it was just meant to show a situation analogous to withholding sex using the man’s traditional role of “provider”. I should have been more clear.
But I don’t know that our attitudes about marriage — or any long-term relationship, in my view — are that different:
a wife is supposed to say yes to her husband’s sexual requests (and vice versa), unless illness really makes it impossible, according to my understanding of marriage. If she is in the habit of saying no, the marriage is in trouble.
That’s essentially how I feel. I’d even go further and say in addition to illness, people are entitled to refuse sex due to tiredness as well, or any other genuine factor that interferes with their sexual desires (though “having a headache” too often isn’t an excuse). It’s only when one party decides to deliberately withhold sex as a means of gaining leverage that it becomes a problem.
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One of the questions you’re asked constantly upon getting engaged is how you knew you wanted to get married. I feel sorry for any guy whose answer is “She threatened to withhold sex.” And I feel sorry for any girl who has to resort to that to get engaged. Not exactly a romantic story to tell the grandkids some day.
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To add to what VK and DF are saying, not only will she use sex withholding down the line again whenever it’s time to get something new, but the minute she gets the very last thing on her fairytale laundy list, whether it’s the 2nd kid, the dream house, the car she wants, she will close the legs for good, since obviously sex for her is a tool to get what she wants. Once she has all she wants, no more sex needed. And if the guy dares stray outside his marriage, she’ll get outraged, cry victim and then take him for half of everything.
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Has anyone written “game” material on how to navigate the difficulties in a real relationship? One you’d genuinely prefer to stay in? The advice to simply ignore the girl and then dump her outright if the problem doesn’t quickly resolve itself seems a bit pat.
Say you’ve been dating a girl for a year. She’s been acting moody and bitchy toward over the past week or so. Not really because of anything you’ve done, but because of other stresses; you just happen to bear the brunt of that (lack of sex is a byproduct). Do you really suggest going out and picking up other women? Are there better, more constructive ways of dealing with difficulties like this than blowing her off?
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swedes are hot! so are norwegians!
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A woman can do whatever she does or doesn’t want with her body What’s the problem?
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Sure, we can hate on the sex withholders all we want, but the girl wants the ring and the guy wants sex. It’s that simple, it’s selfish gene.
And if one takes that disillusioned attitude, it’s not difficult to see how societies that tried to restrict female freedoms emerged. In Islamic law, the woman has an obligation to satisfy the desires of her husband. Possibly to avoid these pussy whipped situations? Disturbing.
Now obviously women have shifted away from the coy strategy and toward the he-man strategy (because they can take care of themselves on their own).
But then why are girls still doing this odd behavior to get marriage? Parroting Dawkins again, marriage is a meme that has been very successful at helping people survive for the past 5000 years. Today, it is near useless and the idea is fading fast, but mainly among the nonreligious.
but i do note that biologically speaking, men have an ingrained aversion to committing for the long term to women who put out too fast for them. we are wired to naturally distrust the fidelity instinct of a woman who surrenders her precious assets with reckless abandon. we want a women we can be sure won’t cuckhold us when the time comes to start a family.
I would think, though, that despite everything said in the past nytimes article about the evolutionary basis of morality, we won’t confuse our biological interests with TRUE moral sensibility.
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There are less incentives for men to get married than there were decades ago. Men used to have to get married to have sex; now women put it out freely. Men used to be able to trust their wives to be faithful, and that’s long gone. Women used to try to take care of their husbands bt cooking and in other ways. Nowadays, women compete with their husbands and collect grievances to tell the divorce attorney. Many men will pass.
Women date up? I would say it depends on the area of the country. I almost never see a mediocre girl with a great looking guy. But it does happen the other way around.
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I almost never see a mediocre girl with a great looking guy.
It has nothing to do with the way a man looks.
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What does he mean by “date up”? Average looking guys can get hot women by being cocky/rich/famous/whatever, but average looking girls only really get “hot” guys if they put out easily and the guy wants something easy for the night.
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sex is and can be a great distraction. the fog of lust is an impediment. if you really want to get to know a person, don’t have sex at the beginning of a relationship.
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“Pissant betas with no alternative options will step right in line yapping yes-dears like spineless whimpering curs once the snatch spigot is turned off.”
… priceless …
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I agree with Tracy, as per usual. However, once you’re in it, if you have to go all Pavlovian negative reinforcement, you know you’re in trouble already.
But that’s not the same as resentment. Residual resentment makes neither (usually the woman) person want to have sex, and the sex withholding strategy plays out anyway, just not done consciously.
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I’m with Irina…sometimes, a woman isn’t deliberately witholding, so much as built-up resentment has led her to lose interest.
What’s the saying…men need to have sex in order to feel close, and women need to feel close in order to have sex. So keep the affection and respect going, and the spigot will flow.
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Who would want to be in a relationship where either one is withholding sex?
simple
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“Sex is not a zero-sum game where the woman loses if she sleeps with the guy sooner rather than later. Nor does sex magically and mysteriously make it harder to get to know someone.
In fact, it’s just the opposite. Being sex-positive will open you up to learning about a person to a much greater depth than having a polite conversation over tea and crumpets”
This is one of those areas where male and female needs and experience are so at odds they may be irreconcilable.
Simple fact: Men’s minds are clouded by unfulfilled desire. If a man desires a woman and she remains elusive his head will be in a perpetual fog whenever he runs into her, and this will continue to happen for a long time.
Simple fact: Women’s minds are clouded by having sex (unless for some reason it’s really, really bad). A woman will begin to enter that state of fogginess, that cloud of unknowing (that a man feels before he has slept with a woman), after she has slept with a man. And this state may last a really long time.
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56: Right on both accounts. Men and women are truly opposites.
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In fact, it’s just the opposite. Being sex-positive will open you up to learning about a person to a much greater depth than having a polite conversation over tea and crumpets.
true, but once a chick opens her up so much that sex reveals her depth, she needs to make sure there is a soft cushiony landing afterwards. no soft, cushiony landing and she is left in misery. a lot of men do not and will not open themselves up in return, and that’s the most painful situation of all
have empathy
My longest and most fulfilling relationships all began hot and heavy.
me, too, but then i was back to square 1. but i don’t blame the sex, i blame my/his maturity level
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Then there’s the times when you have fantastic intimate beginnings for 6 weeks and then go out in public and realize you can’t stand the other person’s facade. As far as dissapointments go, I think it’s worse when you realize you aren’t sexually compatable after a time of waiting, which just goes to show relationships are not first and foremost about the sex. It’s easier to find great sex than it is to find a real connection.
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37 Ryan: Doesn’t look like anyone addressed your questions so I’ll give it a try.
“Has anyone written “game” material on how to navigate the difficulties in a real relationship?”
No. And no one ever will because “real” and “game” are mutually exclusive concepts.
“The advice to simply ignore the girl and then dump her outright if the problem doesn’t quickly resolve itself seems a bit pat.”
Think: Ignoring…ignorance. They are related. Be responsive. The root word in responsibility is response. The ability to respond. Come up with a healthy, assertive, mature response. Avoiding conflict makes it bigger, not smaller, every time. Learn about women. Their biology and psychology but don’t misuse the information for more games. Use it to understand and make life your life easier not more drama filled.
Of course you can dump if that’s what you want. But make sure it’s what you want and do it as directly, honestly, and kindly as you can. Also consider that turning a negative into a positive can have great long term rewards as well. Use your imagination. Don’t ask for advice from men who don’t have what you want in a relationship.
Hope that helps.
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^ Cute response, but I fail to see the disagreement.
“…he’d be better served getting it from men who’ve been there before. “
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64: He says “…been there before.” Not “there now.” So what is your advice to Ryan, then?
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“so the answer i give to women: make the guy wait a couple dates, but make him feel like the waiting is killing you as much as him.”
This is very interesting, thanks for adding that, it could be very useful information.
What I see is that when the woman is not attracted to the man, early sex works better than waiting and when the woman is strongly attracted to the man, waiting works better most of the time. I guess in the latter case, her anticipation being obvious shows the guy that he can expect an active sex life.
“About “long-term relationships”: these are not the same thing as marriage. Marriage is really the only way to go if you’re going to have children; it’s much more stable and more likely to lead to enduring relationships than unmarried cohabitation is.”
This is true. If a woman does not want to be a single mother, she should avoid getting pregnant outside of marriage. Marriage is a set of serious promises with consequenses attached to breaking them. People should be free to choose the promises they want to make, but under current Dutch law, it includes that ones makes certain one is able to have sex, and seek medication or surgery if a health issue bars you from having sex. A very much agree with Clio. Though a husband should not expect his wife to be willing whenever he wants sex, his wife should make herself sexually available on a regular basis, as long as no health issue is present and no vows have been broken. The same goes for men, really. If a married person has not been in the mood for 3 weeks, he or she should try to find out why that is and try to find ways to bring the flame back into the bedroom.
Between lovers, there are no promises, no obligations. Lovers have the freedom to do as they please with a lot less regard for their beloved. Such a relationship means you suspend expectations and take each day as it comes. It can be a very suitable arrangement for those who put their freedom over their security. If being lovers does not suit you, then you can avoid such a relationship.
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So are you saying that he’s entitled to sex, even if he chooses not to have a marriage with her? I think she has the right to withhold sex if he doesn’t want a commitment. Why should he enjoy the benefits of her body if he can’t make a commitment to her on a permanent basis? And if he leaves to have sex with someone else, then good riddance! There are a lot of times when women don’t have sex with their husbands. If he’s just going to run out with someone else, then she shouldn’t waste time marrying him.
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I agree with Krista…Men think that in this day and age everything is about their personal pleasure. Many do not see the consequences of having sex for many years with a woman and then not wanting to commit to her forever. What is the point in that and why would any woman – in love -with her partner want to keep giving of her heart and soul with no possibility of it lasting forever…sometimes you just need to see the forest for the trees and realize that your spirit and needs as a woman outweigh the needs of his penis. And this is how you will be able to easily walk away from someone who is just in it for the fun anyway. Hold your ground and principles ladies. You are so worth it. Don’t manipulate to hurt…only do what makes you feel good about yourself. Period. If he doesn’t understand, then it is better that he walked away before a real issue arose and he ran screaming.
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You’re absolutely right about women freaking out when sexually rejected. The quickest way to utterly NUKE a relationship is to tell a chick there’s “no sexual chemistry.” I’ve done that to a few hangers-on and it’s totally blown them out so much that they leave and never talk to me again. Use with caution.
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