In my post on morality I offered a few thoughts on the shifting sands of moral certitude:
If you had the power in your hands, would you kill in such a manner as to ensure maximum pain and suffering
a. 10,000 Indonesians if it would save your lover’s life?
b. your lover if it would save 10,000 Indonesians’ lives?
I concluded with the following wholly scientific effort at a layman’s definition of morality:
Morality = genetic affinity + expedience + quid pro quo + self-serving status posturing
Commenter “godparticles” picked up where I left off and admirably quantified my definition:
I would probably give more weight to S (status posturing) like this:
M=(g+E+q) x S
…where M is defined as the strength of a moral decision. I guess you could create a scale of relatedness for g, a scale of convenience for E, a scale of likely material return for q, and a scale for the explicit ingroup approbation of the moral position, decision, or action for S.
Let this serve as an innocuous example: A middle-aged, poor black man recently asked me for a dollar outside a grocery store. I was sitting in my car waiting for a friend, and he approached with the opening, “I’m not trying to start any trouble or anything, but can I get a dollar for the bus…” I don’t usually carry cash, and that’s what I told him and he left… even though I knew I had a few bucks in my wallet. I’ve been begged for more cash before after having pulled out my wallet so that wasn’t going to happen again.
So the g was 0. The E was actually high. The q was 0. And the S was 0 (no one was watching to approve). HOWEVER, if my (very liberal) friend had been in the car, the S would have increased and multiplied by the E would have led me to give him the buck.
I liked godparticles’ strengthening of my morality equation so I refined the variables and scoring and added an example of my own in the comments:
given: M = (g + E + q) x S
where M = degree of moral umbrage and the likelihood of taking action to rectify the perceived injustice.
g = genetic affinity
E = expediency (I define this as fluid morality, which is similar to moral convenience. You’re more likely to adopt a moral position when it works to your benefit or is relatively painless to act upon.)
q = tit for tat
S = status whoringThe scale for each variable is 1-10, where 1 = no impact on your decision and 10 = influence of the utmost importance.
Let’s say you’re at a party with friends and your brother (who is in attendance) blurts out a racist joke (he has an awkward sense of humor). A hush descends over the crowd. Your response hinges on a series of subconscious calculations:
g = 10 (he’s your brother!)
E = 2 (it’s tough to call out a racist joke at a party and risk dragging out the discomfort. it’s even tougher when it’s your brother’s public humiliation on the line.)
q = 1 (you’re contemplating a moral action that will prevent your loss, rather than win you gains.)
S = 6 (you risk losing the approval of your friends if you seem as if you are acceding to your brother’s faux pas. acting will not raise your status, but it will prevent you losing status.)calculating M we get:
M = (10+2+1) x 6 = 78
If M resides on a scale from 3 to 300, where a score of 300 equals a moral action that is easy to take, quite personally beneficial, and encourages the sort of self-righteous preening that feels almost as good as sex, then in the scenario I outlined above a score of 78 means you would probably hesitate briefly before deciding to evade your moral discomfort by changing the subject and yelling out “WHO’S UP FOR SHOTS!!!”
An M of 1 means “Kill em all and let bog sort them out”.
Now I’m curious how other common moral dilemmas would rank using the morality equation. Here’s an example from the battlefront:
You and your buddy are in a bar. He notices two girls, a hottie and her friend who was born to cockblock. He tells you it’s all his and he’ll signal you to join when he needs a wingman to occupy the obstacle. He approaches and soon the girls are laughing. You get the signal and move in, doing your best to draw the CB’s attention away from her friend and to you. But your natural charm infects both girls and the cute girl starts touching your arm and tossing you the flirty eye. Your friend is losing the set but you have a good chance of acquiring his target’s digits. You think about number closing her. The morality variables look like this:
g = 2 (no genetic relation to your friend but racially he looks like you.)
E = 7 (any decision you take would be easy to act upon, but getting her # could potentially cost you your friend’s respect since he’s standing right there. because it is only one friend and not a whole group of friends you feel you can smooth out the situation later with a little one on one.)
q = 8 (if you get her # you have a shot at adding a notch. if you don’t get her number you retain the wingman services of your friend for the future.)
S = 6 (you will gain a lot of status points with your friend if you don’t number close his target for yourself. but it is just one friend.)
M = (2 + 7 + 8 ) x 6 = 102
On the morality scale of 3 to 300, there is a one in three chance that you will put your friend’s feelings before the pussy.
Ask yourself, does this result match up with your personal experience dealing with the same situation? Would a good friend opportunistically number close your target 2 out of 3 times?

I like the equation M=(g+E+q) x S.
One question, though: does E (expedience) include the element of risk (say, E = benefit – risk)
For example, there is no risk in not number-closing on your friend’s target, while there is great risk associated with, say, runing into a burning building to save someone.
So I’m wondering if the equation should be like this:
(g+E+q) x S
M= _________
R
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(formatting glitch above)
M = (g+E+q)S / R
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And Bog said, “Let there be methane.” And it was rank.
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In a similar scenario, my friend got the signal from our mutual friend’s target, moved in, got the number and notch, and almost lost a friend/wingman in the process. It took some smoothing over to get back to normal, but the trust was never quite the same between the two of them.
As for the morality equation, the variables assume some equivalence among the variablees, g, E and q, in shaping action times a multiple, S. Not sure this changes your equation, but there are situations where the increased genetic affinity actually decreases the degree of moral umbrage leading to action. For example, a middle-class conservative-evangelical-christian white male’s attitudes toward abortion (measured in q, E and S) may shift dramtically when the abortion is being sought by a minority poor 17-year-old girl rather than his 17-year-old daughter. The degree of moral outrage may be similar but the actual actions taken will likely differ.
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i’m more interested in hearing your love equation. i know you have a one…
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Wasn’t a love equation part of a Roosh post from a while back?
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roissy isn’t roosh and i am confident he has one his uniquely own.
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My question is, would a man with half a brain come to this site for advice on women and relationships?
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Your myriad of formulae are far too boring to read. The only thing I might offer is that the one true master pickup artist I know is a miserable failure with women as far as the true meaning of the word ‘success’ goes. Although his attempts to ‘overcome my resistance’ were unsuccessful, I was then made ‘friend’ and was privy to the inner world of a real life pickup artist. If pussy is your measure of success he was highly successful. In the course of an hour, his phone would ring an average of four times. Women were flashing their tits on the phone cam, others were basically stalking him. I can’t even begin to tell you how many messy scenarios he had going, including women coming to his place at 4:00 a.m. and trying to crawl in bed with him.
Naturally he had zero respect for any of them. Peppered between his many ‘conquest’ stories he would pine for the only woman he ever truly loved. The one REAL thing he fucked it up because ‘gaming’ had become such a habit.
I think after he lost her, that using women for sex (and I could have been one of them!) was his subconscious way of punishing women and himself for fucking up, because he had no real clue what he really wanted and was basically a loose cannon wreaking havoc on the opposite sex. Not that the women weren’t asking for it. I am extremely grateful that I was not. Let me tell you, he was in his early 40’s and that is way too old to still be playing games. Old habits die hard, and sometimes they never do.
Carry on. 😀
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Anonymous – Getting advice from a number of different sources and view points is the best way to make an informed decision. Businesses spend millions of dollars on outside opinions to help formulate strategy and direction. I think it’s rather foolish for people to assume they know everything or if they were to make all of their decisions from one source. I’m also willing to bet that you’re either a single guy with no prospects or hope, or a single woman that’s bitter with her current dating situation. You’re hear for a reason, just like the rest of us.
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Whenever a woman goes out of her way to brag about how she resisted a player, I imagine all the other times she got banged and dumped in her life that she conveniently leaves out of her story rotation, or didn’t even realize was a pickup. It’s like crime, the blatant criminals that you see coming from a mile away are not the good ones. It’s the ones that are so subtle that they leave you never realizing you’ve even been conned or robbed. Or better yet, they make you think that it was YOUR idea to give them your money.
Same with guys and golddiggers. The dangerous ones aren’t the blatant ones. Anyone with half a brain can resist those. It’s the ones that make you think it’s your idea to give them a gift, never explicitly ask for anything or seem to want your stuff, and you never realize you were played all along even after they made out with half your stuff in the ugly divorce.
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I have a philosophical quibble about the formula. It’s not a criticism though.
1. There is a difference between normative moral statements (i.e., expressions of how one SHOULD behave) and descriptive statements (i.e., expressions of how we actually behave as a matter of fact).
2. Your formulas aren’t strictly moral statements at all because they’re attempts to EXPLAIN behavior, and not to justify it morally. So they’re really descriptive statements.
3. I consider myself an evolutionist and I fully agree with evolutionary psychology. However, it is purely a descriptive theory of why we act the way we do – it doesn’t morally justify those actions (note: I’m not suggesting that Roissy takes this position).
Example from some article someone posted: just because we’re biologically predisposed by evolution to prefer sweet and fatty foods, doesn’t mean we should eat only those foods.
By analogy, just because men are predisposed to spread their seed and bang as many women as possible, it doesn’t follow that we should all do these things.
Roissy strikes me as a moral relativist i.e., someone who doesn’t believe there is any such thing as moral truths. But I could be mistaken.
Anyway, solid top notch writing as usual.
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You’re bordering on blasphemy skeletor. Don’t make me me use the power of greyskull on you.
Suggesting that evolved traits may not useful in the modern world. LIES!
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wingman and “flight leader” both need to know all the exit options before going in
if this means wingman getting the kill than so be it. (of course if the wingman’s looks are far better than his buddy’s, then he shouldn’t be oozing charm and charisma for the sake of his buddy)
of course an ugly dude does himself a disservice by choosing james bond as his wingman (that’s relativism for you)
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instant excitement:
“You’re hear for a reason, just like the rest of us.”
Yes, to amuse myself till it’s no longer amusing.
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instant excitement:
“I’m also willing to bet that you’re either a single guy with no prospects or hope, or a single woman that’s bitter with her current dating situation.”
Wrong on both accounts. Care to try again? No? It’s O.K. We should ALL be very used to being misunderstood at this point. 🙂 I just wonder why you’re so sure I must be either a single guy with no prospects or a single woman that’s bitter with her current dating situation. There must be about a million other choices. How about ball busting feminist, or sex starved nymphomaniac, or librarian, or just plain ugly? Seems any of those choices might work too. Let me guess about you…hmmm…intellectual nerd with no social or relationship skills? Haven’t been laid in 2 years?
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11 T
“Same with guys and golddiggers. The dangerous ones aren’t the blatant ones. Anyone with half a brain can resist those. It’s the ones that make you think it’s your idea to give them a gift, never explicitly ask for anything or seem to want your stuff, and you never realize you were played all along even after they made out with half your stuff in the ugly divorce.”
WAY TO GO, T!!! I can’t believe someone here is finally getting what I’ve been trying to convey for a very long time. And that is the correlation between a woman being used for sex and a man being used for money. It feels just as CREEPY to most women to be used for sex (and yes, often we realize it after the fact) as it does for a man to be used for money and as you stated…he often doesn’t know till after the fact. What a mind blower, eh? Had he known, would he have spent it on her? One could argue, as roissy and others here often do; DIDN’T HE ENJOY IT AT THE TIME? SO WHAT’S THE GODDAMNED PROBLEM?
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#15 anonymous: Yes, to amuse myself till it’s no longer amusing.
You got an ETA on when that might be? We’re all on the edge of our seats here.
And that is the correlation between a woman being used for sex and a man being used for money. It feels just as CREEPY to most women to be used for sex (and yes, often we realize it after the fact) as it does for a man to be used for money
That’s not an exact analogy. Men and women both derive pleasure from sex. (Especially the women the way I do it.) Only women derive pleasure from spending a man’s money.
A better one might be sex vs. emotional connectedness, another thing that both men and women can enjoy — though it’s a bigger priority for women, just as sex is for men. And the correlary to a man “using a woman for sex”‘ is a woman “just-a-friending” a man and using him for emotional support.
Note that in both of those scenarios, the party being used could have avoided the situation altogether by exercising personal responsibility: A woman could avoid being used for sex by waiting until she’s sure the guy is interested in more; and a man stuck in the friend zone could choose to simply sever the relationship. Nobody gets “used” completely against his or her will.
As for the post, Roissy, it has the effect of making you look like an amoral math dork. That’s way sexy.
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18 Reggie:
“You got an ETA on when that might be? We’re all on the edge of our seats here.”
So nice of you to speak for EVERYONE. Certainly saves the others time. 🙂
“he party being used could have avoided the situation altogether by exercising personal responsibility: A woman could avoid being used for sex by waiting until she’s sure the guy is interested in more; and a man stuck in the friend zone could choose to simply sever the relationship. Nobody gets “used” completely against his or her will.”
100% AGREED.
“Only women derive pleasure from spending a man’s money.”
Not true. If a man loves a woman he loves spending money on her and making her happy. Are you so cheap that you’ve never derived pleasure from the pleasure a woman receives when she’s being spoiled, pampered, and adored?
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Further Reggie, I’m merely trying to illustrate/illuminate how it FEELS to be exploited. You seem to be trying to avoid the truth that a woman could feel just as exploited, disrespected, and violated when a man uses her for sex as a man could feel exploited, disrespected, and violated being used for his money. REGARDLESS of who is responsible, how it could have been avoided, what led up to it, how idiotic both were, etc., etc., etc. I am only talking about the EMOTION. This does not really require much brain power to get. In fact it takes no brain power and when you apply brain power you miss the point entirely. But then rossy’s is famous for people who analyze everything to death. 🙂
As far as the women enjoying the sex while it happened? It’s just idiotic to keep pointing that out. It doesn’t remove the fact that she may feel like pure shit after the fact. O.K.? Same as the guy would. O.K? This is really not that complicated…. 😀
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Reggie, for once I have to agree with anonymous here, and even add something to it: unless the man in question is paying to keep a woman supplied with drugs or booze or activities that he doesn’t participate in himself, he probably is getting some benefit, perhaps a great deal, out of the way she spends his money. If she spends it on their house, he’s getting comfort and order (and perhaps taste) that he might not be able to arrange for himself; if she spends it on vacations they both go on together, he’s certainly getting some fun out of it; if she spends it on giving parties to which his friends or co-workers are invited, she increases his social profile and may even help advance his career. Even if she spends his money only on clothes for herself, she will make him look better by looking good. (And in that strange way that Roissy writes about, the fact that she looks good to other men may make him look better to other women.)
As long as they are married/together, it’s at least possible that a woman who spends a man’s money will do so in a fashion that reflects well on him, and in a way that he may even be able to enjoy.
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Seriously doubt I’m wrong.
But what I love how you accuse me of binary thinking and stereotypes, yet end with a really cliched one yourself. Unintentionally ironic much? And the “not been laid in 2 years” thing…REEEAAAAALLLY dug deep intellectually to come up with that one, huh? Good job.
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Oops, scratch my last comment. I thought you were responding to me. Haven’t had my morning coffee yet, shit’s still blurry…
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23, No problem Mr. T. I have a great sense of humor.
“And the “not been laid in 2 years” thing…REEEAAAAALLLY dug deep intellectually to come up with that one, huh? Good job.”
Thank you. You are equally impressive! Didn’t really dig deep at all. I’m not nearly as clever as most of the rest here. In fact I’m quite a simpleton by comparison, and damn proud of it! I never, ever claim to make logical sense, but enjoy myself nonetheless. 😀
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I deserve that sarcasm, I admit. 😉
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It’s funny how you assume the universality of the racial aspect. Whites find that so important that they insist everyone else does – they don’t get that they’re the ones who came up with the race thing in the first place, so of course no one else is going to take it to heart as much as they do. Especially in cases of in cases of dubious ethnic groups that were politically fabricated for their own convenience, like African-Americans and Latinos.
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Said Einstein, “I have an equation
Which science might call Rabelaisian.
Let P be virginity
Approaching infinity,
And U be a constant, persuasion.
“Now if P over U be inverted
And the square root of U be inserted
X times over P,
The result, Q.E.D.
Is a relative,” Einstein asserted.
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Going back to one of the earlier commenters, Skeletor, yes, attempting to quantify morality is descriptive — it’s after the fact and not, for me at least, a guide to making decisions. Whether you like algebra or not, showing what variables go into moral decisions is a noteworthy task. I am a moral relativist, and something akin to a Hobbesian, so I assume that most people are calculating, if you will, their expected return on whatever great moral decision they are making. For the small things where little resource is demanded, the “moral” choice is easier.
But suppose your father needs your kidney to save his life. A verbal, rather than a quantitative, approach is much kindlier to our gentle estimations of ourselves, so let’s say I am actually on the rope here. He’s my father, the man I looked up to growing up, who took me fishing, taught me to drive, etc. I can live with only one kidney, but it IS serious surgery, and it is likely (due to my relatedness) that I may develop kidney problems in the future. And this is a one-off deal, he can’t give me back my kidney when it’s gone, or any of his likely sickly organs. My family is pressuring me to do the surgery, and my friends make long faces whenever I bring up the issue. So I’ve run through the g, the E, the q, and the S. How strong is the M? Since you’ll have a very low E and q, the M score will be around 90-100. What does that mean? Well fuck, I don’t know. Maybe giving your dad a kidney isn’t as cut-and-dry altruistic as it seems. Short term losses for long term gains. Of course, if you hate your dad, then you could always say no. But then, you’re losing face to your friends and family — unless they think he’s an asshole too.
(An added note, the g here is high for the father — 50% avg relatedness — however, you could lower it to like 7 or 8 or even lower, to leave your children as 9s and 10s, since in the evo psych view, your dad has already done his duty by making YOU, and that your children are more important)
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^ godparticles,
Why not use your gut feeling?
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^anonymous,
I assume what you call a “gut feeling” to be a complex neural computation, and estimating what that could be is, for me anyway, fun.
It’s likely that the algebraic model here isn’t sufficient. It probably needs to be logarithmic a la Weber’s or Stevens’ sense intensity law or Hick’s decision-making law.
Another note, the descriptive/prescriptive divide is never all that clear. the simple act of describing to someone else suggests itself to be applied prescriptively. Is suggests ought in other words. Think about how Freud talked of egos, superegos, and ids existing, and all the ppl acting as if they had these things.
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^ Hicks decision-making law.” Never heard of it. I am perhaps a more basic creature who uses instinct and gut feeling more than algebraic formulas. Not that you don’t in the final analysis. The important thing is to decide and act decisively, taking full responsibility for the consequences of your actions. In my experience if I don’t do what feels most ‘right’ at any given moment in time, I suffer unwanted consequences. Looking back it’s usually the one thing I wish I’d followed. And on the upside, aren’t we usually glad we ‘obeyed’ that inner instinct–if you will? Of course, one can get confused, between thought and emotion in the moment, but usually not for long if we’re paying attention and certainly not in looking back. Mostly we’ve been ‘trained’ out of our instincts by those with other plans for us, you might say.
“descriptive/prescriptive divide”? Let me see if I understand this. Are you saying because I’m suggesting using ‘gut feeling’ that I’m suggesting that using a formula is the wrong prescription and gut feeling is the right prescription to be applied to the problem of ‘kidney donation dilemma”? Yes and no. You could use an algebraic formula, and it may be necessary for you as a primary thinking type to do just that in order to ‘feel’ right about a decision. Either way, it’s emotion guiding you in the final analysis. Other types of course may not go that route, and judging from your thoughtful reply, you would not have an issue with that.
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^anonymous,
Hick’s Law is from a subdiscipline of psychology known as psychophysics. wikipedia that shit! haha. anyways,
“I am perhaps a more basic creature”
–don’t play modest.
I agree that the gut feeling, or emotion-laden direction from our minds, most often is correct (i would say because of evolutionarily-adapted tendencies), and even when it isn’t, we have the hindsight pleasure of saying that at least we went with what we felt. If we had second-guessed a feeling, and it ended up that it was right, how much worse is that outcome than if we had followed that gut feeling but ended up wrong? Much worse I think, or feel, haha.
I’m not trying to turn humans into computers who obey formulaic laws. As a materialist, I just assume that there are calculations being made in the cortices that might possibly be modeled into formulaic notation.
As far as the descriptive/prescriptive dichotomy goes, I wasn’t necessarily aiming that comment at you, but I was instead making a general comment concerning the idea that manufacturing a moral formula was solely a descriptive exercise.
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godparicles; My intuition tells me you have a sexy mind. Have you heard “Sexy Mind”–the song by Prance? I prefer the Larry Tee Electroclash remix. More later..sexy. ;D
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godparticles,
I love your moniker. How did you come up with it? I Wiki’d Hick’s Law. People are so funny. We can study anything. Sometimes it has a real life ‘use’, sometimes just for entertainment. Was wondering last night if there was a ‘www’ anonymous for those who spend too much time on the net. Of course I googled it.
You nailed me on the false modesty. Very good. Women love it when you call them out on their bullshit. My best friend in high school used to do that all the time and kept me laughing for years.
It’s interesting the way you correlate gut feeling with evolutionary adapted tendencies. It struck me as VERY interesting, and in fact just what I needed to hear. Being pro-evolutionary (how can one be NOT?) in my experience, following the gut feeling or higher emotion is the key to evolution and evolution = happiness. Isn’t the gut feeling the one choice between two things that feels ‘easier’?
Hmm..making ‘right’ choices–right choices being those that get you what you want vs what you don’t want. As you pointed out though, making a ‘mistake’ is not such a big deal. The way I understand it; we can’t get it wrong in any ultimate sense, and we never get it done because of the eternal nature of life. One can always choose again. If you miss one ship, another will come ad infinitum.
You call yourself a ‘materialist’, but your moniker if godparticles. Are you living in the paradox?
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following the gut feeling or higher emotion is the key to evolution and evolution = happiness
following the gut (the limbic system) may feel good, but we have also evolved the prefrontal cortex, which keeps us from always “keeping it real”, and as Dave Chappelle so poignantly put it in a sketch, “‘keeping it real’ can go terribly wrong”. That’s why taking the time to weigh costs and possible outcomes with higher order thinking comes in handy.
But as I garner from your post, you’re a woman, and as such you place a heavy emphasis on ‘feeling right’ but there’s no reason not to have some analysis mixed in. but when it comes to associating with people, i think the gut is nearly always right.
we can’t get it wrong in any ultimate sense, and we never get it done because of the eternal nature of life. One can always choose again. If you miss one ship, another will come ad infinitum.
i’m afraid you’ll have to explain that to me. perhaps you’re talking about missing out on an opportunity with a particular man, but then another will always come along?? I do find it sexy whenever a woman uses a Latin idiom.
There are different types of materialists. but i use “godparticles” because… while i do believe in evolution and the Big Bang is the most probable theory for the existence of the universe, i’m still skeptical as to whether there could not be a god or something who caused it. so basically godparticles is the sum total of all of the matter in the universe. sometimes i think of godparticles as DNA as well. because it’s the information that creates life.
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“There are different types of materialists. but i use “godparticles” because… while i do believe in evolution and the Big Bang is the most probable theory for the existence of the universe, i’m still skeptical as to whether there could not be a god or something who caused it.”
Ooooh, you do have a sexy mind! Here’s my take on that comment; Both are true. They are not mutually exclusive phenomena. The universe has an exquisite order and that had to come from a higher intelligence. The word “God” is unfortunate, as is conjures up tons of bullshit. One could call ‘it’ many things, but humans have polluted the word God. What word would you use?
My “ship will come in” statement is not about men in particular, though is certainly applies. It just has to do with having infinite choices and our unawareness and sometimes needy grasping at one in particular thinking there will never be another chance. For example when “the one” turns out to be a “nightmare”. Haha. Have been there.
Like your DNA comment. Yes, and who created DNA? And who created God? Fun stuff.
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sorry, but I SO didn’t read all of that… cliff’s notes?
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This is brilliant stuff. Some ditsy skank wrote
“Your myriad of formulae are far too boring to read”
Christ, there’s no hope for humanity if retards like this are breeding.
Compared to all the pompous nonsense ever written about morality, this post gets far closer to the truth.
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