22 year old = $5K/hr to do unsafe things in bed.
50 year old = couldn’t give it away for free.
This despite the fact his wife is better looking than 99% of 50 year old women.
another hit in the wall…
No Contest
March 13, 2008 by CH
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Amen, Roissy!
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Couldn’t have said it better myself
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So, for all of you reading who have parents who are still married, know that your Dad is banging a prostitute, and it’s all your Mom’s fault. Have a nice day!
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When I first read the call girl being described as a “22-year-old pretty, petite brunette” and heard about her agency catering to top dollar VIPs, I imagined something that doesn’t quite look like Amy Winehouse’s but equally skanky sister.
The wife is indeed 50 years old, but she bore him children and looks like a decent and loyal woman.
Spitzer is a weak piece of shit.
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my mom is a hotter 50 year old than his wife
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Ashley was not one of her agency’s highest-priced hookers. Her rate was $1K per hour.
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even with the photo distorted, the whore looks better.
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Man, I think this was hilarious. Every you feminist screams at the top of their lungs that she shouldn’t have stood by the dude and should have kicked his ass to the streets with extreme righteousness. That’s true IN THEORY but the reality is she’s 50 plus with three kids. The upside is she’d get half of everything deservingly and be set for life. The down side is the 50 year olds with three kids isn’t exactly a catch out there on the dating market.
I’m sure he’ll do just fine on his own probably get a hotter younger woman. Sure her friends and family will be there in the beginning but after six months the visiting to check up on her will dwindle. So she’s supposed to leave the life she’s grown accustomed to become a late life single parent and split up her home all in the name of advancing feminism?????
ShiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiT
Feminism is only as strong as the number of options you have
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The down side is the 50 year olds with three kids isn’t exactly a catch out there on the dating market.
I’m not sure that’s a big downside for her. From what I’ve seen, divorced women over 35 show little interest in dating, especially if are doing OK financially and have kids who are old enough to no longer need a new daddy.
Of course, divorced men 30-50 jump right back into the dating market, competing with young lads for 18-35-year-old girls and thus contributing to the so-called “woman shortage.”
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PA is right.
Once a woman is near-menopause, she doesn’t really care that much about finding a new man. That’s probably why Hillary didn’t even bother getting a divorce and just used her husband to her advantage.
I think a lot of these comments are obviously meant to be ‘ugly truth’ kinds of things, but they just sound annoying as usual. Annoying because to be totally honest, women, especially older women who have raised kids and have a diminished sex drive see no use for men. It’s not like she’s weighing herself against the young hotties in the dating market and crying every night over her wrinkles, debating whether to leave her husband or not. I bet her marriage is over, even if they don’t divorce. And I doubt she feels the way you think she feels.
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Spitzer is a weak piece of shit.
Agreed.
Men don’t understand the (normal) feminine distaste for prostitution at all. I’ll try to explain it for you. Imagine if some rich person said to you, “Here’s ten grand. I want you to eat this bowl of poop fresh from my butt.” Do you accept? Or would you rather work your boring 9-5 job, going on about your life without eating poop?
From what I’ve been reading, almost all hookers have been sexually abused when they were younger. This one is no exception. It’s really just sad, not something to point out as “oh she’s so much hotter than this other woman.” I’d rather take the spot of the 50 year old woman with 3 kids than the 22 year old hooker who has been abused and has to sleep with scummy men like Spitzer for thousands of bucks an hour.
Any man who says paying for a woman’s drinks or dinner or movies makes her the same as a prostitute does not understand women at all.
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PA
“Of course, divorced men 30-50 jump right back into the dating market, competing with young lads for 18-35-year-old girls and thus contributing to the so-called “woman shortage.””
I don’t think it’s much of a competition when these divorced men come back into the game with money, power and experience over 18-35, and trust me there are girls that eat that shit up
true story
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The funniest part of the story came out in the New York Times (I heard about it from a co-worker, I have not read it). Apparently, when he paid for her to come down to DC, he made her take the regular, cheap train service, he would not pay for the fast Acela service.
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#10 rina:
Annoying because to be totally honest, women, especially older women who have raised kids and have a diminished sex drive see no use for men.
I see where you’re coming from, but this comment brings up another point: If older women don’t have any desire for sex, then shouldn’t feminists be understanding of men with older wives getting their needs filled elsewhere, as long as he still loves and provides for his wife and family?
This is one of the things that makes men leery of marriage. She can simply lose her desire for sex, and unless she’s understanding of the male sex drive, you’re screwed. Or more accurately, you’re not screwed.
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rina:
Annoying because to be totally honest, women, especially older women who have raised kids and have a diminished sex drive see no use for men.
but they do have a need for love.
It’s not like she’s weighing herself against the young hotties in the dating market and crying every night over her wrinkles,
that explains the multi-billion dollar age-defying beauty products and cosmetic surgery industry.
debating whether to leave her husband or not.
if spitzer was a plumber there’d be a lot less internal debate.
And I doubt she feels the way you think she feels.
with the huge settlement she’d get, she can afford to choke back her tears.
and why do you assume she didn’t truly, deeply love her alpha male husband?
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Reggie:
I see where you’re coming from, but this comment brings up another point: If older women don’t have any desire for sex, then shouldn’t feminists be understanding of men with older wives getting their needs filled elsewhere, as long as he still loves and provides for his wife and family?
This is one of the things that makes men leery of marriage. She can simply lose her desire for sex, and unless she’s understanding of the male sex drive, you’re screwed. Or more accurately, you’re not screwed.
I was thinking the same exact thing.
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Men don’t understand the (normal) feminine distaste for prostitution at all.
I think that men used to understand and that, nowadays, they are caring less and less. That is, they are caring about what they want and need and less about what women might want and need.
From what I’ve been reading, almost all hookers have been sexually abused when they were younger.
You might be right. I always wonder about these women being used in Sexual Slavery. Especially for women who were born in South America, Eastern Europe and Asia.
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More tough-but-true stories:
1. Professor dumps wife for one of his students, in her 20s, and marries her. The kids from first marriage watch enviously as they start a family. 20 years on, the 2nd wife is nagging shrew, dissatisfied with her much older husband; kids from 1st marriage now see through him. Wife 1 is a happy old lady on good terms with her children but has no grandchildren because kids all too devastated by the divorce to want families.
2. Professor (I spent a long time in academia) marries serial brunette grad students when they are in their late 20s. When they are in their early 30s they divorce him, costing money in lawyers’ fees though not alimony or child support. He is a laughing-stock all over North American academia. Also the girls have stopped saying yes to him as he grows older.
3. Young women of 28 falls deeply in love with older man of 54. He wants to marry her but she won’t. Why? Because he doesn’t want any children at this stage of his life.
Men, stop chortling at stories like this one (even though you agree that what’s-his-name is a s—). What waits around the corner for weak middle-aged men isn’t necessarily a lifetime of happiness and great sex with younger women.
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Arthur DeVany disagrees.
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I think that men used to understand and that, nowadays, they are caring less and less. That is, they are caring about what they want and need and less about what women might want and need.
Annoying because to be totally honest, women, especially older women who have raised kids and have a diminished sex drive see no use for men.
This is one of the things that makes men leery of marriage. She can simply lose her desire for sex, and unless she’s understanding of the male sex drive, you’re screwed. Or more accurately, you’re not screwed.
These arguments are incredibly short-sighted. Yes this applies to both genders. Men and women in the modern world simply no longer possess enough wisdom to understand much of anything. The male sex drive and the female resource drive should not serve as perfect excuses for any action.
Men and women are being pitted against each other in modern times when historically men have been competing against other men not in the same tribe/family, and women against other women not in the same tribe/family. It’s stupid and unbecoming — unmanly and unwomanly — for both genders to behave the way they do in modern America.
What is does not equal what should be. Too bad no one even knows anymore what should be, because everything we do (democracy, freedom, feminism, etc.) seem to dig the hole deeper. Ideals are dead, and so is human decency and morality. If we keep this up, with the technologies we have, we won’t be around for much longer. Fatalistic carpe diem for the win.
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The real question is, would it be worth it up upgrade from a 3 diamond (this girl) to a 7 diamond?
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Er… Divorced women over 35 drop out of the dating market? What planet are you on? Women in their mid-30s are at their sexual peak. And I know women who have continued dating, and getting married, well into their 60s.
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Clio, I can’t speak for other guys here, but I am not reveling in the fact that this asshole acted like an asshole. However, my sympathy for her is limited by the fact that she chose to marry Eliot Spitzer.
I don’t care what anyone say about people changing, when you get married, you better know for damn-sure who you are marrying. She chose Eliot Spitzer and now she has to live with it.
And, for your first two stories, remember, “you should always follow your heart” and “never be ashamed of who you are” and “you can not depend on others for your happiness” and “never care what anyone else thinks” and, well, you get the idea.
The old ideas/ideals are gone and the new ones have been (nearly) cemented. And, because of them, we are now living in wonderfully positive times.
For story 3, why was the older man single in the first place? Divorced? Widower? Never-married?
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Err, better rephrase that as Arthur DeVany is proof that just because you’re old you can’t be powerful from a physical standpoint. I’d would never dream of speaking on his behalf.
If I was a very attractive woman with few other talents, prostitution would be the way I go. 5K – 10K an hour?
I could work once a month and make more than a factory worker with overtime.
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Imagine if some rich person said to you, “Here’s ten grand. I want you to eat this bowl of poop fresh from my butt.” Do you accept? Or would you rather work your boring 9-5 job, going on about your life without eating poop?
That’s gross, I’d say “no!” in a flash.
Now, make it a couple hundred thousand …
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I think Roissy thinks that all women over the age of 40 just top themselves?
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If I was a very attractive woman with few other talents, prostitution would be the way I go. 5K – 10K an hour?
Again I pose this analogy. If you have few talents but could eat big bowls of fresh poop from strangers who want to watch you do it, and slowly, and you must look very happy while doing it, but you get paid a few grand to do so each time, would you do it? You’d definitely make more than a factory worker, and who cares if you’re eating poop if you’re making a lot?
The shitty thing (har har) is, of course, a lot of people would take up the offer. But think about the kind of damage that would be doing.
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I could be wrong but in my experience the “look” of the 22 year old usually goes along with a certain “smell” that overly used young women have – it is not there for even more active but fewer partnered ones. . The biological equivalent to a “no parking sign” – if u hook up with that type wearz urself sum quality protection – andthengo! not a keeper – I’d pass
In this case the 50 year old looks like a wild weekend project filled with 35 yr old enthusiasm – plz don’t argue skin tone etc. I know, I know – She would be much better to talk to, but maybe she is flawed too – who cares?
Wonder why our society can’t legalize mild drugs that do the job, and legalize Amsterdamlike prostitution – and why we don’t pay teachers more – and why the government funnels so much of our collected tax dollars to the already wealthy? Will the whorette outearn all of us with a book deal – and then use the same wealthy tax breaks?
yes!
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Virgle, idk what “feminists” you’ve been talking to, but as someone who identifies herself as a feminist, I have to say: the whole POINT of feminism and the women’s rights movement, in my opinion, was to ensure that women actually did have options and that those options were viable. So, the fact that Mrs. Spitzer can stay with her husband OR get a divorce, and still maintain a good life (financially, emotionally, societally, etc), that right there is the realization of the actions of the feminist movement. Feminism=choices, and women who criticize women for their choices (ie all those women who demean other women for wanting to stay home and tend to their families instead of work a 9-5) are not feminists. They are judgmental bitches.
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#18 alias clio:
1. Professor dumps wife for one of his students, in her 20s, and marries her. The kids from first marriage watch enviously as they start a family. 20 years on, the 2nd wife is nagging shrew, dissatisfied with her much older husband; kids from 1st marriage now see through him. Wife 1 is a happy old lady on good terms with her children but has no grandchildren because kids all too devastated by the divorce to want families.
Sure, this sounds like a dick move, but taken in light of the second scenario, it might not be as it appears.
2. Professor (I spent a long time in academia) marries serial brunette grad students when they are in their late 20s. When they are in their early 30s they divorce him, costing money in lawyers’ fees though not alimony or child support. He is a laughing-stock all over North American academia. Also the girls have stopped saying yes to him as he grows older.
I note that it was the women who divorced him, not the other way around. For all we know, he meant to be a faithful husband forever to each one before the women shamefully betrayed their marriage vows.
Or does he have some character flaw that made them all want divorces? If that’s the case, how do you know that the wife in scenario 1 didn’t drive her husband away due to a similar flaw?
3. Young women of 28 falls deeply in love with older man of 54. He wants to marry her but she won’t. Why? Because he doesn’t want any children at this stage of his life.
What exactly does this prove? Do you expect him to have children when he doesn’t want them? Maybe he just doesn’t want to risk dying while his kids are still in high school and leaving them in a financial and emotional lurch when they’re getting ready to attend or are already at college. And it’s of course equally within her rights to not marry this man because of this. I don’t see any villains in this scenario.
Men, stop chortling at stories like this one (even though you agree that what’s-his-name is a s—). What waits around the corner for weak middle-aged men isn’t necessarily a lifetime of happiness and great sex with younger women.
You know what’s infuriating? When women equate the male sex drive with weakness. I actually agree with you that a lot of male posters here have a too-rosy view of older bachelorhood, but when the alternative is to be ridiculed for our natural instincts, I understand the appeal of that view.
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These arguments are incredibly short-sighted.
I am not arguing in favor of the status quo. I am simply stating what I think is true about men, and women, nowadays.
What is does not equal what should be.
I could not agree more. But, your idea is definitely not popular. Again, like I said in a previous comment, “you should always follow your heart” and “never be ashamed of who you are” and “you can not depend on others for your happiness” and “never care what anyone else thinks”…
These are the prevailing ideas. This is what young people are given as advice.
You are talking about Right and Wrong. Ideas about Right and Wrong are absolutely opposed to people being focused on their feelings.
Ideals are dead, and so is human decency and morality.
Ideals are not dead. It is just that new ones were introduced during the 60’s Social Revolution. And they were the ones that were seen as Hip, New, Fun and Fashionable. It is these new ideals that have created the environment you are talking about.
It’s stupid and unbecoming — unmanly and unwomanly — for both genders to behave the way they do in modern America.
I don’t believe that this is a uniquely American phenomenon. Most of my family lives in Europe and it is little different there.
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22 year old cutie = filthy rich governor
22 year old cutie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blogger in D.C.
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Lurking, I can’t remember the details, but I know the older man in my story was divorced, and I think it was because his wife had wanted children and he didn’t; also, he wanted to find a younger woman who was more sexually pleasing to him…the point is that this is one of the hurdles that older men have to face if they pursue younger women, who will nearly always want children later, even if they don’t want them immediately. So they end up having to keep working and planning for the future at an age when they might prefer to retire.
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rhymenocerous:
what “feminists” you’ve been talking to
As far as I can tell, Feministing.com is the most popular Feminist website for young Feminists. Even if it is not the most popular, it is certianly popular enought that the site creator got a Book Deal and an interview on the Colbert Report.
And the women who post on that site and comment on that site are universally unattractive.
I don’t mean, “I am a sexist pig who thinks that you should be cooking me breakfast in High Heels and a Bikini” Unattractive. I mean that they are incapable of following a simple line of logic because it disagrees with their disjointed world-view.
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Men, stop chortling at stories like this one (even though you agree that what’s-his-name is a s—). What waits around the corner for weak middle-aged men isn’t necessarily a lifetime of happiness and great sex with younger women.
I’ve known a number of older man/younger woman couples over the years, and in most cases the wives were your basic harridan types. What I’m not so sure of is whether the women were like that before marriage, or whether being married to older men somehow turned them into shrews.
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Kristen lives in the same building as a friend of mine, who called me last night to tell me when the news broke. We laughed about it cause I too used to be neighbors with a high end call girl a few years back. I’m telling you, this city is full of whores.
Regards,
– Client 10
P.S. – Prostitution should be legalized in all 50 states.
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…the point is that this is one of the hurdles that older men have to face if…
I understand. But, as always, I was curious to know more.
…he wanted to find a younger woman who was more sexually pleasing …
…who will nearly always want children later…
You know, I have about 500 things to say about just those two subjects, but, this si not the time or place. Interesting stuff.
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“Again I pose this analogy. If you have few talents but could eat big bowls of fresh poop from strangers who want to watch you do it, and slowly, and you must look very happy while doing it, but you get paid a few grand to do so each time, would you do it?”
You have very strange attitudes toward sex Hope, to equate it with eating shit.
There are two types of men in this world, those who like to fuck hot young chicks, and those who really like to fuck hot young chicks. It seems that many women are unaware of this fact.
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Oh, I am surprised that no one has said this yet, but…
If I had to compare the 22 year old hooker with what I imagine a 22 year old version of the wife would be, I would definitely prefer the wife. I know, I know, that isn’t the point, but still.
Also, the 22 year old has that sorta-evil thing going. And, not the “I am a little bit wild and devilish” look, but, “Man, I am totally going to steal your wallet, samsh your car and then laugh at you” look.
She ain’t no Tiffany Amber Thiessen circa-1998, in my opinion. Granted, few are.
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Reggie & Roissy,
My best friend’s parents were married for 25 years.
He made all the money and she was a stay-at-home mom. He was attractive, she was overweight and couldn’t keep it off after the 3rd daughter.
He cheated on her for 20 years of their marriage, but she didn’t know until the last three, though she obviously knew. They stopped having sex after the third kid was born.
The love ended quickly in that marriage, but why did he stay?
Marriage is for the rearing of children, nothing less, nothing more. Everything else is the value you and your culture assign to it. He was right to stay with his family, and she was right not to divorce him. But everything else is heart breaking, and just points to how unfair life can be. Oh well.
Spitzer reminds me of my friend’s dad. He’s a shady sheyster, who puts on a perfect face but is nasty behind closed doors. Her dad didn’t pay taxes for 3 years, watched porn late at night in the living room, and stole the daughters’ money from their savings accounts (money they earned by actressing).
why do you assume she didn’t truly, deeply love her alpha male husband?
You’d like to think, in your male fantasy, that being an alpha means that his wife loves him. I don’t really think that’s true, more closer to the truth is that she doesn’t want to lose her dignity or break up a family. Most women, especially women who are good mothers, love their kids way more than their man. No matter how hot the flame burned in the beginning, that oxytocin and extrogen is transferred onto loving the children. Whether alpha or beta, the husband has a purpose, and once that purpose is complete, the story often changes, and not just because the husband is attracted to younger women.
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8 Virgl
You’re nuts, Virgl along with roissy and many other delusional narcissistic males. A 50 year old woman, an 18 year old woman, a 27 year old woman–they are all better off being ALONE than to be with some cheating, untrustworthy piece of shit. Do you not place trust as a highlight of a good relationship? Perhaps even an essential feature? I do not get you guys at all. Here’s a big reality check: the value of “having a man at any cost” is complete bullshit. As if we need men to complete us or fuck us to make us feel worthy of respect! You are a total idiot. 😀
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You have very strange attitudes toward sex Hope, to equate it with eating shit.
You didn’t read my comment closely. My attitude was not toward sex, but toward the idea of a woman prostituting herself to tons of strange men for pure monetary exchange. Most of these women have been abused in their past and admit it (for example Google the College Call Girl; she’d been raped many times, several times while on the job).
Sex itself is a wonderful thing, and I love having it with my husband. However, for a woman to prostitute herself out to various strange men who can do whatever they want provided they come up with the cashola… that very idea is as distasteful to the average woman as eating poop. Analogies are used all the time to aid understanding, but it seems like you still fail to understand.
Another analogy is a soldier who has been psychologically damaged and desensitized from so much killing and seeing so much death, sometimes death of innocent children. Is that a desirable outcome? I don’t think the average man wants to sign up for that kind of thing, just like the average woman wouldn’t want to be abused, raped or to become a prostitute.
It seems that many women are unaware of this fact.
That idea is truly hilarious. The cosmetics and fashion industry exist precisely because women are keenly aware of simple facts about male biology. Those women who do not dress up to look hot aren’t unaware — they simply don’t feel like putting in the effort for one reason or another.
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@ candy cane- false. an 18 year old woman and a 27 year old woman want to get laid and want to have a father for their babies.
A 50 year old woman? Yeah, the cost-benefit analysis says… no way. Love from the kids and her girlfriends is what I’m going to look forward to in my elderly years.
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What do you call a woman that gets paid an obscene amount of money to sleep with several men? Spitzer’s call girl.
What do you call a woman that gets paid an even more obscene amount of money to sleep with one man? Sptizer’s wife.
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Um, wow really conquering new territory here: a 50 year old is percievably less attractive than a girl half her age whose job it is to suck dick and have butt sex?!?!?! OMG you’re FUCKING kidding me!!!!! Who would have thought a young sex worker in her early twenties would be hotter than a middle aged wife and mother? It’s just too crazy.
Roissy, again you’ve really enlightened all of us.
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@ Roissy & Hope
Women get male biology, so they spend tons of money on that crap. But… I think a lot of women, particularly the women who are or were pretty and femme in their youth, love cosmetics and looking pretty on their own. Explain fashion to me?
It’s really just in our culture that we’re taught to want a man forever to love us. All these single family homes without communal meeting grounds… they just scream STAY MAN & WIFE FOR LIFE! In reality, I think it’s a much more natural human state for women to spend the majority of their time together, and for men to do likewise. That’s how it is in many other cultures. There’s no clean family unit division, things exists much more on a ‘community level’. I’m afraid you, Roissy, are much more affected by the Christian morality than you realize.
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Most women, especially women who are good mothers, love their kids way more than their man.
That’s it, I am not getting married.
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they are all better off being ALONE than to be with some cheating, untrustworthy piece of shit.
If they are alone, they don’t get the kids (well, they could be single-mothers to Child-Care’d Kids), they don’t get the Nice Home in the Nice Neighborhood, they don’t get to go to the fancy parties with the Upper-Crust people, they don’t get their pictures in the paper for being at the great Social Events, well, they don’t get a lot of things.
Candy, there is probably a big difference between what you think they should do and what they actually want.
(Well, the combo of what they really, really, want and what they can actually get.)
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Men don’t understand the (normal) feminine distaste for prostitution at all. I’ll try to explain it for you. Imagine if some rich person said to you, “Here’s ten grand. I want you to eat this bowl of poop fresh from my butt.” Do you accept? Or would you rather work your boring 9-5 job, going on about your life without eating poop?
Prostitution is the world’s oldest profession. We’ve seen the equivalents of prostitution in other mammals, where one monkey offers food and lodging in exchange for sex.
Look, no one chooses willingly to have sex in exchange for money, but how many people choose to:
clean toilets for a living?
To sit in a cubicle and type in microsoft excel all day?
To be a telemarketer and deal with cursing people all day?
To manually masturbate animals in zoos (for artificial insemination)?
To be a soldier and commit atrocities in a mindless war?
The fact is, plenty of people hate their jobs. Sex is NOT different.
Stop hating sex. Stop assuming that every time a woman has sex and she doesn’t orgasm that she’s being exploited.
We live in a society where people should be able to choose what they want to do without harming others. Is that so much to ask?
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43 rina
“an 18 year old woman and a 27 year old woman want to get laid and want to have a father for their babies.”
At any cost? At the cost of their sanity and self respect and happiness? If you say so. It’s just not me, O.K.? I’ve had to learn the HARD way that without trust you really have nothing of value, though you can pretend and many, many, many do.
48 U. L.
I think you know what I mean by “alone”. Must you be so literal??LOL. Seriously, there is a huge difference between being “alone” (sans partner) and being lonely. HUGE difference. I prefer vastly being alone (which to me is a positive) to being lonely IN a relationship. In other words not deeply connected, trusting, joyful, passionate, communicative, loving, etc., etc., etc. In the case of being lonely IN a relationship you have an exponential increase in your feeling of loneliness. It’s not twice the loneliness, it’s loneliness to the nth power. BEEN THERE!!!
Alone = “All one” Complete in and of yourself.
Lonely = Poor, poor pitiful me.
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Candy Cane,
You can yell and hate on me all you want. I’M not the one standing up in front of cameras next to my cheating partner. So in theory having a man at all cost is stupid, in reality women do it EVERY DAY.
OH Snap
I drank your Milk Shake!
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The cosmetics and fashion industry exist precisely because women are keenly aware of simple facts about male biology. Those women who do not dress up to look hot aren’t unaware — they simply don’t feel like putting in the effort for one reason or another.
I may be misunderstanding your point, but cosmetics and fashion, for the most part, are for women to impress other women (or themselves).
Women do not get their Hair styled for men. Women do not choose the latest fashions for men. They do it for themselves or other women.
The women who dress and style themselves for men do so in the Pamela Anderson sort of way. They are always sporting the micro-mini or halter-top.
I understand that more and more young women are doing just that, but, they are still in the small minority.
To put it another way, Guys love Sluts, Girls hate them.
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oh, I just realized that Rina said the same thing.
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#20 Hope: As Gannon and I have pointed out many times, the “what is” people are dying out because of their embrace of feminism and corresponding failure to breed, while the “what should be” people proliferate. The future is Mormon and Muslim.
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Stop hating sex. Stop assuming that every time a woman has sex and she doesn’t orgasm that she’s being exploited.
Stop assuming that I have orgasms every time I have sex. While you’re at it, stop assuming that I hate sex.
The fact is, plenty of people hate their jobs. Sex is NOT different.
It is very different. Perhaps you’ve heard of “degrees.” Maybe in your world working as an office monkey is the exact same thing as being a prostitute, but it’s not in mine. Just because prostitution is said to be the world’s oldest profession doesn’t make it automatically something desirable or right. By that logic, then murder would be perfectly acceptable because it’s likely among the world’s oldest crimes.
We live in a society where people should be able to choose what they want to do without harming others. Is that so much to ask?
The truth is, everything we do affects others. No biological organism lives alone in this interconnected world. Harm is also a matter of perception. You and many other men see no harm in a girl prostituting herself for money, and the prostitute herself may see nothing wrong with it if you ask her, since she has been so desensitized to it. But ask the girl’s parents, if they are still alive and cares about her; her grandparents; those who care about her as more than a piece of meat. Ask someone who has contracted AIDS as a sex worker, or those who have been human trafficked to be prostitutes.
If people should do whatever they want to do “without harming others,” then tell me with absolute certainty that not a single person was harmed in this entire debacle. In my opinion it is immoral to view people as means to an end, yet that is all we do in this society, with respect to work, sex, family, and life itself.
You’d like to think, in your male fantasy, that being an alpha means that his wife loves him.
Rina, you hit it on the spot. The so-called “alpha males” as defined in American culture are generally some of the most unlovable men, unsuited for long-term relationships and untrustworthy to the core. The women he uses to placate his sex drive are just means to an end for him. Love has nothing to do with his marriages.
If he physically beats or verbally berates her to appear more “alpha,” then he is even more the cravenly kind of man that any man with a still-beating warm heart would beat into a pulp given the chance. She does not love him, but is too afraid for her safety and the sanctity of her home to leave.
A man and a woman together should inspire each other to become better individuals, not to live in separate agony, with zero emotional connection and strangers in the same household. My mother was one of these women who was abused and lived in a loveless marriage where my “alpha” father beat her up and slept around. Love? That well dried up long ago.
In my opinion, a real man is one who knows true love, who is protective of his woman and all of her, not just her body but her psyche and heart, who has the willpower to be unshaken by temptations, who admits it when he is wrong but tries to transcend his weaknesses, and who inspires genuine feminine love and bonding from his woman. His woman, in turn, will go on loving him for the rest of her life, who will not be disappointed and let down by the real man who is a good lover, protector, provider and father of their children.
the “what is” people are dying out because of their embrace of feminism and corresponding failure to breed, while the “what should be” people proliferate.
If you honestly believe that feminism has all the culpability in this matter, then you are simply another of the multitudes who do not understand that the world around us does not exist in absolutes.
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Seriously, there is a huge difference between being “alone” (sans partner) and being lonely. HUGE difference.
I think that most people understand that.
But, look at this girl (let’s call her Jane):
Jane is now 35 and desperately wants to get married and have children. When she was 25, she loved being the smart and sassy indepent girl that she was. Marriage and Kids? Maybe, she didn’t know. Didn’t really think about it that much.
Now, she does. All the time.
She has really nice friends. And her co-workers are not too bad. She knows of other workplaces that are far worse.
But, at night, she is alone. Her parents are lovely, as are her friends. But, last Thursday night when she was talking to her friend Lisa on the phone, she could hear her Husband and kids in the background. Lisa was going on about something. Actually, she was complaining about her Husband and kids. Well, sorta. Venting really.
At that moment, Jane would have given anything to have switched places with Lisa. And she didn’t even think that Lisa’s husband was “all that”. But, he was there.
————————————————————–
So, should Jane feel lonely? Answer: it doesn’t matter. Her biology is screaming at her to attach herself to some man and pass on her genes.
In my opinion, Jane should have gotten a different education than the one she was given.
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I may be misunderstanding your point, but cosmetics and fashion, for the most part, are for women to impress other women (or themselves).
Women do not get their Hair styled for men. Women do not choose the latest fashions for men. They do it for themselves or other women.
The women who dress and style themselves for men do so in the Pamela Anderson sort of way. They are always sporting the micro-mini or halter-top.
I understand that more and more young women are doing just that, but, they are still in the small minority.
To put it another way, Guys love Sluts, Girls hate them.
You sure have women all figured out. I’ll leave you to it then.
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sestamibi:
the “what is” people are dying out because of their embrace of feminism and corresponding failure to breed, while the “what should be” people proliferate.
Hope’s reply:
If you honestly believe that feminism has all the culpability in this matter, then you are simply another of the multitudes who do not understand that the world around us does not exist in absolutes.
Hope, I don’t know if everything can be placed on the shoulders’ of Feminism, but, you have to admit that everything started changing after the 60’s Social Revolution. And Feminism, in it’s modern form, was born from that revolution.
And sestamibi has a definite point about the future belonging to Mormons and Muslims. They make no bones about what they believe and how to act. “This is Right, that is Wrong”. And they say, “Have children…lots of ’em”.
And then they pass on those “values” (Whatever you think of them , they value them).
…that the world around us does not exist in absolutes.
The world may not exist in absolutes, but, the people who are actually procreating certainly try to define them.
It is the lossest and most easy-going religions that have the dwindling numbers and least devout…and it is the strictest and most “absolutest” religions that have the growing numbers and the most devout.
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The future is Mormon? Alone aint loney?
Shiiiiiiiitttt. Who let the special ed kids in?
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You sure have women all figured out. I’ll leave you to it then.
I am not trying to be an asshole. I am saying that women (by and large) dress for women.
Shows like “What not to wear” are for women. That main chick is always tring to get the “contestants” to dress more feminine, minimizing “problem areas”, maximizing their curves and even being sexier.
But it is not for the men. It is, either, for themselves of for women.
And, this is not a bad thing.
I think that someone like yourself would recoil if you though that the modern woman was simply trying to dress to please men. That is, that she defines herself relative to a Man’s wants, and not her own.
And what is with the snarky attitude?
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As Gannon and I have pointed out many times, the “what is” people are dying out because of their embrace of feminism and corresponding failure to breed, while the “what should be” people proliferate. The future is Mormon and Muslim.
Never mind the fact that birth rates in many Muslim countries have been tanking in recent decades. Supposedly, Mormon birth rates are declining too.
And why isn’t Gannon out breeding with 14-year-olds?
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The future is Mormon?
DF, he is saying that the future is to those that are having children.
Mormons are having children. Muslims are having children.
The French are not. Well, the Algerian and Middle-Eastern Frenchies are, but, that is more or less his point.
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yo explain the hugh grant cheating on elizabeth hurley with that ugly hooker
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Never mind the fact that birth rates in many Muslim countries have been tanking in recent decades. Supposedly, Mormon birth rates are declining too.
That is a good point. I know that the birth-rate in Iran is significantly lower than what it once was. However, in general, Muslims and Mormons (and people like that) are having more children than your average First-World StuffWhitePeopleLike Suburban Engineer.
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“yo explain the hugh grant cheating on elizabeth hurley with that ugly hooker”
Because the strange is always better than the usual….I don’t care how hot anybody is…after you’ve fucked them a few times you are ready for something else to catch your eye. Again, one of the biological differences between men and women that women like Hope don’t understand at all.
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By that logic, then murder would be perfectly acceptable because it’s likely among the world’s oldest crimes.
No, murder makes use of unwilling participants. While we can’t monitor all people’s interactions to worry about every single indirect person being hurt, we can at least make illegal interactions where one person doesn’t want to be involved.
Prostitution is not one of them-both participants are willing. Sure the girl may not enjoy it, but NO ONE is putting a gun to her head.
Talk about child slavery or sex slavery, I’m with you. Most of the societies that frown upon legalized prostitution have slavery behind closed doors where women can’t go anywhere for help. I saw some documentaries on Cambodian brothels and have seen them for the shit they are firsthand where the women are literally forced and can’t escape. But to link that to a free exchange between participants in America is absurd.
You and many other men see no harm in a girl prostituting herself for money, and the prostitute herself may see nothing wrong with it if you ask her, since she has been so desensitized to it. But ask the girl’s parents, if they are still alive and cares about her; her grandparents; those who care about her as more than a piece of meat. Ask someone who has contracted AIDS as a sex worker, or those who have been human trafficked to be prostitutes.
What will the parents say if they knew their daughter manually masturbated zoo animals for a living? Or was a soldier in Iraq? Or cleaned porto poties for a living? What if a parent found out their son was a flight attendant?
All things a parent wouldn’t be happy about. But only because of our culture that frowns on it. I think that culture is out of date and is using Islamic morality to determine what’s right and wrong.
Look, I traveled in Thailand where I saw parents willingly send their daughters to the red light districts. These girls then entrapped foreigners into relationships (through love, not coersion) and were getting 1K a month per boyfriend. While their friends working in the office or restaurant struggled on 200$ a month. The girls seemed perfectly fine and when I asked them if they were upset, they were ok with it. Why? Because the culture was accepting of it, so the girls didn’t care. If the culture makes it taboo, then the girls are going to feel damage. If the culture makes it ok, then they won’t feel so bad.
Again, legalize it, give women a recourse if they want to leave the profession. Give them opportunities to get educated. Make them wear condoms. Make it illegal, and it goes underground.
I saw waves after wave of Saudi men and men from other harsh Muslim countries come to SE Asia and make use of the women. You make it illegal, the men will go to other coercive methods to get laid. It’s in our genes.
I saw Japanese women make use of imported African men in Thailand. I didn’t see any of the men crying about their terrible predicament.
And now that a nerd who works in IT is going to have a hard time finding a partner (because of feminism), would you rather have him go Cho Seung Hoi or go to a brothel?
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Reggie #30, you wrote “You know what’s infuriating? When women equate the male sex drive with weakness. I actually agree with you that a lot of male posters here have a too-rosy view of older bachelorhood, but when the alternative is to be ridiculed for our natural instincts, I understand the appeal of that view.”
I’m not sure why you’re reacting to my posts in this way. I wasn’t trying to point out the character flaws in the men in my stories at all. I was trying to say that older men can get “screwed” through no fault of their own except, well, foolishness and weakness.
Roissy posts a picture of the wife beside the call girl and then says, more or less, “yes, look at this; no wonder it happened,” and a number of men chime in with some version of “yeah right.” I was trying to point out that the man who indulges himself in this way, whatever his reasons, is not necessarily going to end up a happy old geezer with his arm around a 25-year-old beauty.
And no, I’m not equating the male sex drive with weakness – but when a man in a high position, with an attractive wife (even if she isn’t 25 any more), who has made a career of prosecuting corruption in high places and should have some knowledge of how easy it is to trace suspicious financial transactions (and awareness that perhaps enemies are out to get him), turns to a call-girl for sexual satisfaction it is indeed a weakness.
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Hope, I don’t know if everything can be placed on the shoulders’ of Feminism, but, you have to admit that everything started changing after the 60’s Social Revolution. And Feminism, in it’s modern form, was born from that revolution.
“Everything” started changing after the 60’s? Do you mean the Industrial Revolution, the French/American Revolutions, the two World Wars, the invention of the atomic bomb, etc. changed very little? That capitalistic, individualistic thinking started circa 1960’s? High obesity, cancer and cardiovascular disease rates started around the 1960’s, too?
Blame all the modern pitfalls on women? Men are completely blameless? That helps no one solve any issues.
And sestamibi has a definite point about the future belonging to Mormons and Muslims. They make no bones about what they believe and how to act. “This is Right, that is Wrong”. And they say, “Have children…lots of ‘em”.
You do realize that all of Asia is practically secular, especially China, and even with abortion and strict one child per family rules they still can’t keep their population under a billion. Having a ton of kids does not guarantee the future if you have built a corrupt society.
Tell me with a straight face you’d rather live in the radically religious Middle East than the more liberal and secular Europe. America, by the way, is not a secular nation with over 85% of the population self-identifying as Christians.
The world may not exist in absolutes, but, the people who are actually procreating certainly try to define them.
Reform can be done without replacing one retarded absolute with another (God worship with Pleasure worship), but I suppose that’s too lofty of a goal.
I think that someone like yourself would recoil if you though that the modern woman was simply trying to dress to please men. That is, that she defines herself relative to a Man’s wants, and not her own.
Nope. I dressed for men when I was younger and am not apologetic for it. Most women intuitively know what looks good to men, and dressing to look good for women is exactly the same as looking good to men. Men also know what looks fashionable at the time and are drawn to it.
Fashion is not some kind of crazy new thing that women invented in modernity, and women certainly don’t try that hard to look good when they are alone at home. Women these days can justify to themselves that they are only trying to look good for other women or themselves, but the truth of the matter is that they do it for men.
There is nothing wrong with trying to please, understand and love the opposite sex. You all have such weird ideas about love and the opposite sex in general. Both men and women do define themselves in terms of success with respect to the other gender.
And what is with the snarky attitude?
It’s not intentionally snarky. But you make so many assumptions about women it’s hard to disentangle them, so my solution is to leave you with your preconceived notions.
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UL #62, oh I know what he meant. I just get a kick out of kids with a cursory knowledge of High School bio trying to drop some knowledge like they’re a PhD.
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Here are the total fertility rates (expected # of children born per woman) for a group of Islamic countries, in 2000 and 2007. I’ve left out those in sub-Saharan Africa, where high rates are the norm for all countries regardless of religion and infant mortality is very high. Those marked with an asterisk are below the 2.1 “replacement level.”
Afghanistan: 5.87 (2000), 6.64 (2007)
Yemen: 7.05 (2000), 6.49 (2007)
Oman: 6.08 (2000), 5.70 (2007)
Iraq: 4.87 (2000), 4.07 (2007)
Saudi Arabia: 6.03 (2000), 3.94 (2007)
Pakistan: 4.56 (2000), 3.71 (2007)
Syria: 4.06 (2000), 3.31 (2007)
Libya: 3.71 (2000), 3.21 (2007)
Turkmenistan: 3.63 (2000), 3.13 (2007)
Bangladesh: 2.85 (2000), 3.09 (2007)
Tajikistan: 4.35 (2000), 3.09 (2007)
Malaysia: 3.29 (2000), 3.01 (2007)
Uzkekistan: 3.09 (2000), 2.89 (2007)
Kuwait: 3.26 (2000), 2.86 (2007)
Egypt: 3.15 (2000), 2.77 (2007)
Qatar: 3.25 (2000), 2.75 (2007)
Krygyzstan: 3.22 (2000), 2.68 (2007)
Morocco: 3.13 (2000), 2.62 (2007)
Bahrain: 2.82 (2000), 2.57 (2007)
Jordan: 3.44 (2000), 2.55 (2007)
UAE: 3.29 (2000), 2.43 (2007)
Indonesia: 2.61 (2000), 2.38 (2007)
United States: 2.06 (2000), 2.09 (2007)
Azerbaijan: 2.19 (2000), 2.05 (2007)*
Turkey: 2.16 (2000), 1.89 (2007)*
Kazakhstan: 2.03 (2000), 1.89 (2007)*
Lebanon: 2.08 (2000), 1.88 (2007)*
Algeria: 2.80 (2000), 1.86 (2007)*
Tunisia: 2.04 (2000), 1.73 (2007)*
Iran: 2.20 (2000), 1.71 (2007)*
Quick summary: declines in almost every country, often significant declines, with the curious exception of Afghanistan. Seven Islamic countries are below replacement, including two of the biggest ones (Turkey and Iran).
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No, murder makes use of unwilling participants. While we can’t monitor all people’s interactions to worry about every single indirect person being hurt, we can at least make illegal interactions where one person doesn’t want to be involved.
You missed my point entirely. Your point is that because prostitution is “old” that it is okay, but murder is just as “old.”
But to link that to a free exchange between participants in America is absurd.
It’s not absurd, because human trafficking does actually happen in America.
Personally as a compromise, I would favor the British system of allowing prostitutes to work for themselves, and to outlaw pimps/brothels altogether as there is just too much potential for abuse. But I don’t make the laws.
Look, I traveled in Thailand where I saw parents willingly send their daughters to the red light districts. These girls then entrapped foreigners into relationships (through love, not coersion) and were getting 1K a month per boyfriend. While their friends working in the office or restaurant struggled on 200$ a month.
That has economic underpinnings which have nothing to do with the legitimacy of prostitution itself. When people are driven to desperation, when working minimum wage does not equal a livable wage, then yes people will turn to drug trafficking, prostitution, crime, etc.
All things a parent wouldn’t be happy about. But only because of our culture that frowns on it. I think that culture is out of date and is using Islamic morality to determine what’s right and wrong.
Address these ails of society first, and the vices do not need to proliferate. Would you rather live in Thailand as one of those parents who has to send their daughter to prostitution over being a father whose daughters do not have to sell their bodies for a living?
You say that our morality is out of date — are basic ideals of empathy and kindness really so quick to disappear? Maybe so. But in my opinion that’s rather a sad state than something we should applaud and encourage.
I saw waves after wave of Saudi men and men from other harsh Muslim countries come to SE Asia and make use of the women. You make it illegal, the men will go to other coercive methods to get laid. It’s in our genes.
More irony. Those men live in the kind of societies where they can simply rape a woman, and the woman will be the one punished rather than the man. Is that the kind of society we envision to be our great future (to those that believe the future belongs to the Muslim)? Those coercive methods are not in everyone’s genes either. Something like half the men out there have rapist genes, and the other half do not.
Once again, it’s not a problem that has a one-stop solution. Simply legalizing prostitution is just a band-aid on the plethora of other problems facing modern humanity. In the short term it seems like a great idea so the men can get their quick release, but in the long run I forsee a lot of problems, not the least of which is the kind of new sexually transmitted diseases already cropping up among the gay communities.
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hope is the female version of david alexander.
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“Everything” started changing after the 60’s? Do you mean the Industrial Revolution, the French/American Revolutions, the two World Wars, the invention of the atomic bomb, etc. changed very little?
Fair enough. Things have been very interesting since the Industrial Revolution, but…
It is difficult to prefectly measure these things, but with some statistics and anecdotal evidence we know that the Crime Rate, Homicide Rat, Rape Rate, Illegitimacy Rate, Abortion Rate, Divorce Rate and many other metrics got far worse starting in the 1960’s. All of these things continued to get worse for about 3 decades and have since leveled off.
However, they are astronomically worse than they were during the worst periods of post-Industrial Urban growth/crowding.
Many of the attitudes that surfaced and then, basically, dominated after the 60’s had been attempted before. Most notably during the Roaring 20’s (but the Depression basically killed that and everything else in it’s path).
So, my point is, yes, the 60’s has had a greater affect on the things that you are referencing (i.e. “Ideals are dead, and so is human decency and morality. If we keep this up, with the technologies we have, we won’t be around for much longer. Fatalistic carpe diem for the win.”) than the other great “revolutions” you mentioned.
That capitalistic, individualistic thinking started circa 1960’s?
No, it certianly did not. But, many people feel that those attitudes go back to at least the 1830’s. And they were definitely prevalant during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Yet, that period saw a decrease in Crime and an increase in Social Stability. Shouldn’t we have seen a huge Social breakdown throughout the 19th century?
High obesity, cancer and cardiovascular disease rates started around the 1960’s, too?
I am not exactly sure what that has to do with what we are talking about, but, I believe that those things started to “grow” after processed foods and refined carbs were introduced between the two World Wars.
However, and I think that this is important. Things like Obesity and Cancer did not become “enourmous” problems until after the McGovern Report and the country started increasing the amount of Bread and pasta it ate and replacing butter with things like margarine, because, you know, butter will kill you.
Blame all the modern pitfalls on women? Men are completely blameless? That helps no one solve any issues.
I hope that was not in my message. I am not blaming women. If I had to pick a group, I would say that I blame the Elites. But, that is such a generic word.
I blame the people who felt that we didnt just need to make changes, but actually get rid of what once was.
Provide more resources for women? Not good enough. We must destroy the “Patriarchy”.
Reduce Child Abuse? Not good enough. We must completely change how parents raise their children.
Improve the workplace? Not good enough. Capitalism is evil. Long live Socialism.
————————————
I am not blaming Feminism per se, but the complete overhaul of traditional society.
They were traditions for a reason. They should not be destroyed and replaced wholesale, but updated and allowed to evolve.
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Because the strange is always better than the usual….I don’t care how hot anybody is…after you’ve fucked them a few times you are ready for something else to catch your eye. Again, one of the biological differences between men and women that women like Hope don’t understand at all.
Then shut your trap about how hot vs. not hot or young vs. old is the the main idea. Men seek variety, plain, ugly, and simple.
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If instead of having a wife his own age Elliot Spitzer were married to an extremely beautiful woman in her 20’s … he’d still be porking hookers.
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You do realize that all of Asia is practically secular, especially China, and even with abortion and strict one child per family rules they still can’t keep their population under a billion. Having a ton of kids does not guarantee the future if you have built a corrupt society.
I am not saying that religion demands children. I am trying to say that people with strongly-held traditional beliefs will have the most children. Or, better put, will keep their society very much the same.
So, you can be secular and still have lots of kids. But, I seriously doubt that the Chinese people who are having children are big fans of “Sex and the City”.
Having a ton of kids does not guarantee the future if you have built a corrupt society.
I don’t think high child birth-rates guarantee anything. But, they are having kids. And those kids will be the de facto leaders of the world. If you ain’t having kids, it is difficult to pass on your beliefs; your culture.
Tell me with a straight face you’d rather live in the radically religious Middle East than the more liberal and secular Europe.
Hope, how liberal do you expect France to remain? Seriously, things are getting worse, not better. And, either way, that was not my point.
America, by the way, is not a secular nation with over 85% of the population self-identifying as Christians.
Yes, and that is my point. The Christians are having kids. The “Sex and the City” crowd is not. (I am speaking generally, here). In america, it is the Hard-Core Christians and Hispanic Immigrants that are having children. And that is where our culture will go. Love it or hate it.
Reform can be done without replacing one retarded absolute with another (God worship with Pleasure worship), but I suppose that’s too lofty of a goal.
Hope, when did I ever put forth the Pleasure Principle as my definition of culture or reform? I am saying that you can not expect the Smart and Decent people to win if they are not having kids. Actually, it wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t having kids, but they have allowed a situation where idiots and scoundrels are allowed to immigrate( and then, ultimately, procreate).
… and dressing to look good for women is exactly the same as looking good to men. Men also know what looks fashionable at the time and are drawn to it.
Come on, really? You don’t really think that guys and girls think alike on that issue. I mean, I believe that some women think that they are dressing for men…but they are not. Simply, if you were to go to some other site, say T-Nation.com, and ask for the guys to post pictures of girls that were dressing “Hawt” and then go to some other site, say iVillage.com, and ask the girls what they usually where when they go out to impress the men, well, I think that they would look very different.
Men also know what looks fashionable at the time and are drawn to it.
True enough, but that is something different. A man can be impressed by a woman dressed fashionably. It says at least a few things about her. And it is very possible for her to dress fashionably and classy. But, again, most guys are really, REALLY, drawn to a girl that dresses slutty.
Women these days can justify to themselves that they are only trying to look good for other women or themselves, but the truth of the matter is that they do it for men.
Actually, I think that many women do just the opposite. They say that they where, say, uncomfortable shoes because of the guys. But they really do it for themselves. And, again, I think that is a good thing. They should dress for themselves.
There is nothing wrong with trying to please, understand and love the opposite sex.
Agreed.
It’s not intentionally snarky. But you make so many assumptions about women it’s hard to disentangle them, so my solution is to leave you with your preconceived notions.
Hope, if we don’t make assumptions, we don’t get out of bed in the morning.
Since I am not omniscient, I need to amke assumptions. Since I make assumptions (and assume that they are not perfect), I engage others.
I have a brain, I want to use it. I want to improve it.
Snarkiness does not help. It pushes away.
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Once again, it’s not a problem that has a one-stop solution. Simply legalizing prostitution is just a band-aid on the plethora of other problems facing modern humanity. In the short term it seems like a great idea so the men can get their quick release, but in the long run I forsee a lot of problems, not the least of which is the kind of new sexually transmitted diseases already cropping up among the gay communities.
Fair point, Hope. I agree with you on that.
But, to really address these issues, we have to start paying attention to people like Richard Lynn, Rushton, and Murray, who give correct but controversial view on social ills. Until we do that, the problems remain. And legalization would at least bring down some of the symptoms.
Perhaps the sexbot revolution will make the debate irrelevant.
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I seriously doubt that the Chinese people who are having children are big fans of “Sex and the City”.
But they sure are fans of You’ve Got Mail!
I hostessed at a popular cafe on the UWS where tons of Chinese tourist girls would come to take photos of the place because it was in the movie. Weird? Also weird that they all dressed and behaved very similarly to American girls. We’re all relatively the same, so don’t make assumptions.
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Quick summary: declines in almost every country…
Peter, the point is not that many people are having fewer children. The point is that the rate of decline for some is greater than others.
For instance, say you really like the liberal French society. But, you notice that certian people are more liberal than others. And, the most hard-core muslims are having the most babies in France and that the most laid-back Parisian (and his kind) are having the fewest. And, that the Muslims are having them at a younger age (i.e. faster replacement) and that the Liberal Parisian is having them at a n older age.
Well, I think that we can assume that it will not be that liberal for much longer.
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I hostessed at a popular cafe on the UWS where tons of Chinese tourist girls would come to take photos of the place because it was in the movie. Weird? Also weird that they all dressed and behaved very similarly to American girls. We’re all relatively the same, so don’t make assumptions.
These are Chinese Tourists. In other words, they are probably amongst the wealthiest 1% of Chinese society. They are certianly not representative of the greater Chinese population. Life in Beijing and Shanghai (and a few other places) is significantly different than the rest of China.
But, even if they did represent the greater Chinese population, it would not make a huge difference. Because, like Japan, China is likely to remain very Chinese (for Japan, Japanese). Because non-Ethincs have an almost impossible time becoming citizens.
So, in the case of Japan, whatever you think of Japanese society and Japanese birth-rates, it is likely to remain very Japanese for a long time.
We can not say the same for the Intelligent and Moral faction in most Western countries. The Intelligent and Moral are having the fewest children and at a later age.
And, if memory serves, Criminals (for an extreme analogy) are having children at a far great rate and at a younger age. This is Culture-Death.
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But they sure are fans of You’ve Got Mail!
Also, wasn’t the message in that movie fairly traditional? I mean, wasn’t it a simple story about falling in love?
I never saw it.
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There is no contest between the suppleness and nymphomaniac proclivity of a 22 y.o. vs a 50 y.o. But it’s still sad especially for the children, and it still hurts (esp. in the self-love department)– possibly all the more because guys like you are right.
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#20 Hope:
These arguments are incredibly short-sighted.
How? Nowhere in your response did you explain how those arguments are short-sighted, instead opting for a discussion of historical gender roles and the is-ought fallacy before concluding with a dire warning about how mankind is doomed. All of which may be true, but none of it supports your initial statement.
#67 alias:
I’m not sure why you’re reacting to my posts in this way. I wasn’t trying to point out the character flaws in the men in my stories at all. I was trying to say that older men can get “screwed” through no fault of their own except, well, foolishness and weakness.
Your second sentence is somewhat unclear. If they’re foolish and weak, isn’t that their own fault? And I’d certainly call foolishness and weakness character flaws, myself.
I was trying to point out that the man who indulges himself in this way, whatever his reasons, is not necessarily going to end up a happy old geezer with his arm around a 25-year-old beauty.
That’s true. But your first example seemed to be painting the man in a negative light by describing all the fallout from his decision to leave his wife without knowing the circumstances that led to it. That colored my perception of your next two examples, I suppose.
And no, I’m not equating the male sex drive with weakness – but when a man in a high position … turns to a call-girl for sexual satisfaction it is indeed a weakness.
Agreed. But by providing examples of multiple other men in your initial post, you appeared to be talking about men in general rather than Spitzer in particular when you called it “weakness.” That’s what I took issue with.
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Because the strange is always better than the usual….I don’t care how hot anybody is…after you’ve fucked them a few times you are ready for something else to catch your eye. Again, one of the biological differences between men and women that women like Hope don’t understand at all.
Once again, you falsely assume that women don’t like sex, don’t like sexual variety and don’t have strong sexual urges. I understand these intimately well. But I don’t believe that these urges serve as legitimizing forces that excuse actions like cheating, lying, harassment or rape.
I empathize completely with the men who lust after new partners, because I feel the same urges, too (I won’t speak for other women, but perhaps they feel this way as well). The difference is that I tend to hold back my actions when I recognize that it would cause others harm or injury, and yes that includes emotional pain which is just as real as physical pain. My husband and I both have had the option to cheat and lie and hurt, but we choose otherwise. Our choices define who we are.
So, my point is, yes, the 60’s has had a greater affect on the things that you are referencing (i.e. “Ideals are dead, and so is human decency and morality. If we keep this up, with the technologies we have, we won’t be around for much longer. Fatalistic carpe diem for the win.”) than the other great “revolutions” you mentioned.
A large part of the fatalism comes from the polluting effects of the technologies we’ve invented (for example: statistics on the amount of toxins and chemicals commonplace in the U.S. vs. other parts of the first world), the potential for us to wipe out huge populations with enduring after-effects (nuclear bombs), and the glorification of individualism over everything else (which started before the 1960s).
Remember what else the 1960s brought? Mass media. Television. Advertising. Kennedy, the Civil Rights / Feminist Movements would not have been possible to begin with without the media. Specific ideas are disseminated for specific purposes, and feminism, I’m sure, serves its role, otherwise it would have been squashed like other ideas in this country (socialism, for example; what a dirty word).
But, they are having kids. And those kids will be the de facto leaders of the world. If you ain’t having kids, it is difficult to pass on your beliefs; your culture.
Not quite true either. I am the product of two Chinese parents, and I saw my father all of 5 times that I can remember. I ended up being radically different from my parents in my outlook and actions. My beliefs are not shaped by my parents but rather by the world around me, a world that is increasingly global with the Internet and more people speaking a common language (English).
Genes are only part of the story. If you are a genetic purist for European descendants, then I can see why it would alarm you to be replaced by the “lesser brown” people. But if all you want is to pass on the culture, well, take a look around. Many young Muslim children are also being heavily influenced by Western ideas. Asian kids are watching Western shows and movies and playing World of Warcraft. American culture is prevailing across the world. But is that such a good thing?
Perhaps the sexbot revolution will make the debate irrelevant.
We already live in an approximation of the Matrix. Very few of us want to unplug, and the future looks to be more and more of the plug.
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vk: Feminism is only as strong as the number of options you have
brilliant. fucking brilliant. this one goes on my quote wall, right under chuck palahniuk’s assertion that losing all hope is freedom.
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i’ve not read all the comments yet, so someone else may well have pointed out what follows, BUT:
(1) nobody is ‘hot’ in the long-enough-term.
people become accustomed to each other; love may grow, but passion fades; etc.
in short, familiarity turns any woman into a 5-6, no matter how hot she is.
therefore, the brand-new 7 will turn any man on more than will his 10 wife of seven years. that doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll act on the urge, but the truth is immutable.
monogamy is bondage for men, in a way that women will simply never understand.
(2) eliot spitzer is a rich and powerful man. just because we live in a nation where the personal lives of the rich and powerful are commonly scrutinized down to the last detail, let’s not forget that the ONLY reason for most men to want to amass wealth and power, past a certain point, is to ensure access to multiple women.
that’s right, the only reason.
if threshold X of wealth and power is the point at which a man can do what he wants, not be beholden to an unsavory work life, and have decent influence on things, then any effort to rise above X is occasioned by the desire to have multiple women. nothing else would be worth the public scrutiny and loss of personal freedom entailed by the further accumulation of wealth/power.
spitzer is just doing what he’s worked his whole life putting himself into a position to do.
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Yes, foolishness and weakness are character flaws, but they’re not seriously evil ones, though they can certainly lead you in that direction. I was writing too hastily, but I think what I was trying to get at was that men – and women – don’t have to be evil whatevers in order to find themselves in a serious mess and on the road to permanent unhappiness.
Look, I enjoy Roissy’s site for what it is – deliberate provocation – and while I sometimes wince at it, I do feel I learn something too. But I worry that some of the younger and angrier men who turn up here to read may take him a little too literally. UsuLurking talks about the women misled by a certain brand of feminism who wish they’d had children, and there are a few of those. But I’d be equally sorry to see men misled by their own fears, and the supposed glamour of perpetual bachelorhood, to imagine that their lives as single men in their 50s would be one long hot-tub dalliance with Gisele Bundchen and others like her. That’s why I mentioned the men I’ve known who tried to chase eternal youth in women’s arms. That includes the middle story I told: notice that he always married women of the same age, as he grew older.
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51 Virgl
“You can yell and hate on me all you want.”
Get a grip. I don’t hate you! This is blogging for Christ’s sake. 🙂
“I’M not the one standing up in front of cameras next to my cheating partner.”
Yes, she is a bigger idiot than even you…or me for that matter. 🙂
“So in theory having a man at all cost is stupid, in reality women do it EVERY DAY.”
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stupidity of humans is unequaled in the natural world. I used to be stupider myself. 🙂
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hope #11:
From what I’ve been reading, almost all hookers have been sexually abused when they were younger.
if that’s hookers as in streetwalkers and their ilk, then ok.
if you believe that about high-priced call girls, your naivete is astonishing, and your willingness to believe any pampered, privileged princess who plays the victim card is sickening.
most of these girls are just worthless scum who don’t want to work for a living, where ‘work’ encompasses both traditional employment and the effort required to maintain a good marriage (if they don’t work as wives).
being a secret callgirl requires a moral bent that endorses lies, lies, lies, and more fucking lies. why would you believe a damn word these girls say about ‘abuse’?
uh-huh. that’s what i thought.
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and for the record, at least in the picture up there on the left, the girl looks like a tranny.
yuck.
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silly post. Patronizing prostitutes is about the desire for sexual variety, not the age/attractiveness of one’s wife. He could have had a younger, hotter wife and still done this.
And yes, he was weak and had almost a pathological lack of self control to do this. I wonder if he subconsciously wanted to tempt fate.
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I empathize completely with the men who lust after new partners, because I feel the same urges, too (I won’t speak for other women, but perhaps they feel this way as well).
Sorry, Hope. The need for variety of a woman is just simply not as strong as that of a man. Men propogate their genes through variety. All women get through variety is not being sure who the father of their kid is.
Men are biologically PROGRAMMED to want sex from many women. Women are programmed to want sex from one person: the alpha male (and monetary support from the provider).
But there is a fundamentally different biological drive going on here, and it is unfair for women to judge men using only their knowledge of their own sex drive.
From what I’ve been reading, almost all hookers have been sexually abused when they were younger.
This may be true, but the abuse happened before the prostitution, not after. Kristof states the same statistic in his column today. Prostitution isn’t the cause of the abuse. The cause is abusive fathers.
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Most women, especially women who are good mothers, love their kids way more than their man. No matter how hot the flame burned in the beginning, that oxytocin and extrogen is transferred onto loving the children.
this is exactly what scares me most about marriage.
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monogamy is bondage for men, in a way that women will simply never understand.
Women do understand. There’s no widespread acknowledgment about how a woman will lose sexual attraction for a man after a time the same way there is for men. The stereotype is that men are the ones who crave variety — the truth is that women crave multiple male partners just as much. That’s probably in part what led to the high rate of young divorces initiated by women and the reluctance on the part of many people nowadays to get married in the first place.
if you believe that about high-priced call girls, your naivete is astonishing, and your willingness to believe any pampered, privileged princess who plays the victim card is sickening.
I’d feel sorry for them even if they weren’t abused before they got into the profession. Undoubtedly while on the job they would see and experience things that the average woman would never have to. I’m not naive enough to think that all the rich johns would be gentle. In fact a guy would probably start choking her because that’s what gets him off and then throw down a couple of grand extra to keep her quiet. Beyond that, there aren’t very many high-priced call girls, and most hookers are not the ones who make the NYT headlines and get people’s sympathy.
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The stereotype is that men are the ones who crave variety — the truth is that women crave multiple male partners just as much.
I agree. The repercussions of us acting on this are much higher, though. And we want to be seduced, so there is no ‘hooker’ equivalent for women. All cheating women are also emotionally cheating. That’s why it’s so bad.
this is exactly what scares me most about marriage.
I thought it was the having to be monogamous?
What is it that you want? A woman who loves you unconditionally and never wants to cheat and never stops loving you as much as the day you met her even when she has kids? And you want shackles off and the freedom to screw around for passionate affairs with other women who love you? Hmm.
What I want is a man who loves me and never cheats on me, too. But I also want him to always want me as much as he did the first night he got to have me.
I guess this is what Roissy says by life is unfair. He’s right.
Now let me ask you this: With my current bf I decided to be honest. I said, if you feel like sleeping with someone else, you can. And I will, too. Will we eventually have an open relationship? I’m not sure, but the guilt and the boundaries aren’t there. I think that will make me want to cheat less, if the day ever comes that I am faced with an option. Do you think he feels the same way?
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hope #55
then tell me with absolute certainty that not a single person was harmed in this entire debacle.
not a single person was harmed in this entire debacle.
…until the cameras started rolling.
that was easy.
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A large part of the fatalism comes from the polluting effects of the technologies we’ve invented (for example: statistics on the amount of toxins and chemicals commonplace in the U.S. vs. other parts of the first world), the potential for us to wipe out huge populations with enduring after-effects (nuclear bombs), and the glorification of individualism over everything else (which started before the 1960s).
But these things all existed in the 1950’s. Yet, Social Stability was very high. So, what happened between the Stable 50’s and the unstable 70’s?
Remember what else the 1960s brought? Mass media. Television. Advertising. Kennedy, the Civil Rights / Feminist Movements would not have been possible to begin with without the media. Specific ideas are disseminated for specific purposes, and feminism, I’m sure, serves its role, otherwise it would have been squashed like other ideas in this country (socialism, for example; what a dirty word).
Again, I want to re-iterate, I am not blaming Feminism. It was a result of the changes, not the cause, IMO.
But, you make an interesting point. Some people believe that the Counter-Culture was a direct result of everyone seeing the same thing on TV. That, the first kids to grow up with this in the 1950’s were the same kids who spear-headed the counter-culture in the mid to late 60’s.
And I think that it is interesting. But, still, Radio was a common thing for everyone around the country long before TV. But, maybe there was more variable content for each town and city.
Not quite true either. I am the product of two Chinese parents, and I saw my father all of 5 times that I can remember.
Yes, but you are not Chinese. You are an American (of Chinese descent). Very different. Also, you are somewhat unique in that you are a Chinese-American from a “broken” home. Asians are the most likely to start and keep a nuclear family.
You are not an example of an exception, but you are part of what I am talking about. Mexican-Americans are notably different than African-Americans who are notably different than Asian-Americans who are…
People can talk all they want about diversity, but the most diverse place in America are often the worst places to live. Little trust, little community, little sharing of experiences. It is one of those really Politically Incorrect things of the modern Western world.
And most people do not want to raise their children in REALLY diverse places. Most people want to raise their children in SOMEWHAT diverse places (Where more than 50% of the people are “like” themselves).
But, I mean, who is honest about that?
Genes are only part of the story. If you are a genetic purist for European descendants, then I can see why it would alarm you to be replaced by the “lesser brown” people. But if all you want is to pass on the culture, well, take a look around. Many young Muslim children are also being heavily influenced by Western ideas. Asian kids are watching Western shows and movies and playing World of Warcraft. American culture is prevailing across the world. But is that such a good thing?
Personally, I am not worried about being replaced by anyone. I think that those kinds of ideas are out-dated for modern America. Well, whether they are or are not, that ship has sailed.
I am not worried about people not passing on their culture. I am certian that most people (the people that we are talking about in the Western World) have almost nothing to pass on.
But I do take issue with you saying that American culture is prevailing around the world. And, maybe this is simply an argument of semantics, but I do not think American culture is spreading anywhere.
When I think of culture, I do not neccesarily think of things like popular music and popular movies. I think of long-lasting things, like beliefs. In the olden days, this would have been Religion. Now, for many, I think it is nothing.
Think of England going to India and basically forcing their way of life onto the Indians. The way to act, dress, police, judge and almost everything else. I am not sure how effective they were and I am not saying that any of us should want to do that. But they were trying to spread their beliefs (amongst many other things).
They believed that their set of beliefs were right, best. People were often shamed into acting a certian way.
Same for America (back in the day). Same for everywhere. I believe that most people pass on nothing nowadays. Most people do not have really Strongly Held Beliefs. Well, that is, the people that I believe that we are talking about: College Educated Modern Western people.
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Look, it’s pretty hard to assess people just on the basis of appearances but I reckon the sex would have been better with Mrs Spitzer. She looks quite the MILF. In fact, If I was in a bar and had a choice between the two I would choose Spitzer’s wife.
I’m sorry, but even at a thousand dollars an hour the hooker looks cheap and sluttish. Sure, if that’s what you like go for it but she just doesn’t do it for me. Yeah her flesh may be firmer and she probably looks better naked (in a pornoesque sense) but I imagine there is not much between the ears so the potential for ultimate sexual pleasure is limited.
Spitzer’s wife on the other hand has “something”, she looks like the type of girl that if pursued properly, would do the things that would make a hooker blush, and she could probably hold a conversation afterwards.
I suppose it’s a bit like the difference between apples bought from a supermarket and apples straight from the tree. The supermarket apples all look the same and are flawless but have no flavour. The apples from the trees may have the occasional imperfection but the flavour is fantastic.
Gourmets take from the tree, the pleb buys from the supermarket.
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hope:
dressing to look good for women is exactly the same as looking good to men
ridiculous, unless you limit ‘men’ to
(1) homosexuals, and
(2) betas who just download women’s opinions of what looks good.
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hope & irina:
The stereotype is that men are the ones who crave variety — the truth is that women crave multiple male partners just as much.
I agree. The repercussions of us acting on this are much higher, though.
you can’t be serious.
(a) if women consistently craved anything sexual as much as do men, all public places would be ground zero for debauch, 24 hours a day. think about gay men buttsexing in the streets of n.y. in the studio 54 era. now expand that image to include every street of every town.
(b) some women do crave multiple partners – as long as those multiple partners fit nearly platonic ideals of fitness, handsomeness, dominant behavior, and smoothness. in short, many women crave multiple partners from the same 5% of the male population – in other words, not true variety at all.
when men crave variety, we mean it. tall, short, black, white, loud, quiet, fit, chubby, aggressive, passive, forties, twenties, … you get the idea. anyone above a certain threshold – a threshold, btw, which decreases with each additional month/year of monogamy – qualifies to turn us on.
(c) the reason those women don’t act on their urges is not ‘repercussions’, but, rather, simple scarcity: that 5% of the male population only has so many hours in its day and so many spots in its bed.
(d) repercussions. are you crazy? we live in a society where men are blamed for the actions of men, and men are also blamed for the actions of women.
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…until the cameras started rolling.
that was easy.
The camera rolling was inevitable for the governor of New York once the story broke. He should have known that and acted appropriately, or at least not been so brazen about his own supposed moral superiority.
But there is a fundamentally different biological drive going on here, and it is unfair for women to judge men using only their knowledge of their own sex drive.
My husband judges harshly men who use prostitutes, too (including his brother). He has the same sex drive as most healthy men. You’d probably call him judgmental, though. He has had a Southern Gentleman upbringing and fundamentally respects women, not in the newfangled feminist man way, but in the old tribal European way.
When I think of culture, I do not neccesarily think of things like popular music and popular movies. I think of long-lasting things, like beliefs. In the olden days, this would have been Religion. Now, for many, I think it is nothing.
Democracy, freedom, opportunity, capitalistic enterprising free market, individualism, etc. are a deeply held American “beliefs” that have spread throughout the world. Look at how many countries call themselves “democratic” nowadays. Hilarious, isn’t it?
Yes, but you are not Chinese. You are an American (of Chinese descent)…Little trust, little community, little sharing of experiences.
I do not identify myself as completely American. But I share more in common with people that are of a difference race than me (my 3/4 Caucasian 1/4 Cherokee husband) than my own parents. We are each other’s best friends, and most of my close friends have not been my own race or even gender. I think you are narrowing your sights on superficial differences and finding them where they need not exist. Might want to reevaluate that.
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UsuLurking talks about the women misled by a certain brand of feminism who wish they’d had children, and there are a few of those.
Clio, I am talking about girls, and boys, growing up without the basic knowledge and culture that would have once been passed on. And, on top of that, I think that for at least a generation, girls were lied to.
Tehy were told that they could have it all. And what a great thing to be told. But, I think that for most, if they tried to have it all, they were left disappointed.
I am not angry at girls for this, I am angry at their parents/teachers/”culture”-definers.
It is one thing to be disappointed, right, no big deal. But some are bigger than others. And if Family is a basic biological drive for girls, and they were led down a path that made it that much harder, well, I think it is almost criminal.
But I’d be equally sorry to see men misled by their own fears, and the supposed glamour of perpetual bachelorhood, to imagine that their lives as single men in their 50s would be one long hot-tub dalliance with Gisele Bundchen and others like her.
I think that this is a problem for a tiny minority. Most guys do not think about what they will have (constant string of hot-model girlfriends), but more or less think about what they want to avoid (i.e. “I am serious, if I get a minivan, I will get a rifle and kill everyone.”)
Personally, I have every intention of getting mariied and raising a family.
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this is a record #of comments for me
johnny five-
yes, men crave more than women. and yes, women do crave. but…
all things being equal, depending on what you people deem ‘status’ both genders don’t necessarily have the opportunity to act on their desires.
let’s say a man finds twenty girls sexy while walking down the street. depending on his looks/demeanor, zero-twenty of the girls will find him sexy. the woman he as on his arm, however, find maybe one or two guys appealing while walking down the same street. zero-two of those guys will indicate an interest in sleeping with her, and maybe thirty other guys.
okay, now even if the man loves his woman, he may very hungrily want to have sex with the twenty girls he eyed. If two of them show interest, is he going to cheat? Depends. The woman, who made one good match will require a lot more to get into bed with him. Does she love her boyfriend? How much effort is the other guy going to put in? Is it worth it? If they have children, it makes it even harder.
we live in a society where men are blamed for the actions of men, and men are also blamed for the actions of women.
WHAT?
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Hope:
You’ve got well-defined issues stemming from your father’s abandonment. Every time you speak of your husband it’s about one thing – the security (mostly emotional) that you find in him. You don’t mention anything you two have in common, any shared hobbies, any financial concerns, any shared bonding experiences. For better or worse, you’re not a gold-digger, an adventure seeker, someone looking for a partner in crime, etc.
The one track you cannot leave is your man providing you emotional security.
It’s almost as bad as Peter and pubic hair.
We get it. Your dad abandoned you. You have security issues. You trade sex for security. You fear individualism because you fear being alone.
When you post about things that might hurt your relationship, it’s not the destruction of a shared relationship that bothers you, it’s the resultant lack of security.
That’s also why you hate prostitution so much – it’s sex without security and being taken care of.
Most women don’t have the deeply emotional hatred of prostitution you do. Sure, they wouldn’t do it themselves, but they don’t get all worked up like you do about it, because they don’t share your issues.
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Silda at 22 must have been pretty cute. Cuter than the hooker, by far. If she walks, she walks with hundreds of millions – which makes her a good deal more successful in the hooking business.
When a money-chasing Ivy League lawyer marries another lawyer with inherited wealth and status, you can bet that money, status, and security is the main reason she did it.
If Eliot Spitzer was a lunchpail guy who was blowing his family’s meager budget on hookers while his loving wife Silda was trying to keep the household finances in order and raise the kids, I’d be full of sympathy for Silda. She was doing right by him, and he wasn’t doing right by her.
She married for cash, she knew she could divorce for cash, and there’s a price for that, and this is it.
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Not just looks, but you can tell by facial expressions that the youngster is a lot more… adventurous.
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Democracy, freedom, opportunity, capitalistic enterprising free market, individualism, etc. are a deeply held American “beliefs” that have spread throughout the world. Look at how many countries call themselves “democratic” nowadays. Hilarious, isn’t it?
Actually, it is a little funny that you mention Democracy first. That is a fairly new American ideal. What I mean is, our Founding Fathers not only did not idealized Democracy, but hated it. They saw it for what it was, Mob Rule.
That is why America is not a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. Even referendum items that are voted on by the populous can be struck down for being unconstitutional.
Also, you mentioned the Freedom and Free-Market aspects. Again, tricky stuff.
AFAIK, not a single country has latched onto our idea of Constitutional Liberties. Even throughout liberal Europe, Free Spech is a rare thing. Again, AFAIK, every European country has “Speech Codes”. In other words, you can go to Jail for saying that Hitler was a great guy. (I know, I know, America has its problems with actually consistently applying the Bill of Rights, but still)
Also, I believe that only 5 or 6 places have taken to the Free-Market stuff. By my count, they have been Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea and Estonia. And, of all those places, I believe that Estonia was the only place to choose it for itself. The other places either had it “given” to them after World War II or forced on them by some ruling other (i.e. Hong Kong). Other places have “loosened” certian markets at certian times, but they were nothing even close to what could be called a Free Market.
Granted, I take your point. I was not thinking about those “things” when you were talking about American culture.
But, I still feel that these have not been really taken in by other countries. For us, it use to be near complete independence. A near Libertarian Dream/Nightmare (Depends on your perspective).
I do not identify myself as completely American.
Again, that is my point. How many people in 1920’s France do you think would have not identified themselves as “Completely French”? Nowadays?
For better or worse, in the past, American treatment of immigrants was brutal. Basically, assimilate or suffer the consequences. Hell, our public school system (back then Common Schools) was started so that Catholics could be Americanized (Protestantized). I am not trying to promote a new age of intolerance. I am trying to say that people do not pass on much today, and I don’t think that they realize what the consequences are likely to be for the grand-children.
I think you are narrowing your sights on superficial differences and finding them where they need not exist. Might want to reevaluate that.
Hope, instead of saying something like that to me, why don’t you make a specific point or argument and then I can go from there.
If I am wrong, so be it. When people make smart points, I learn.
And, if I offend you, then say that.
Like I said, I engage people for a reason.
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Do I sense a quarrel here between fundamental visions? “*This* will make you happy in the end?” vs “No, *that* will make you happy in the end?” As though there’s some magic formula out there that’s guaranteed to lead to long-term fulfillment?
If so, can I indulge my older-if-not-wiser-ness? (In my mid-50s, sadly.)
1) There’s no magic formula for happiness and fulfillment. People differ, even if there are some characteristics that don’t vary too much. Circumstances change.
2) Having kids and sticking to the straight and narrow will probably prove to be a decent choice for maybe 2/3 of people. But how do you know if you’re one of them? I’ve known loads of people who felt that their own lives ended when they had kids. I’ve known plenty of children (and grown-up children) who hate their parents and wish they’d die.
3) Almost nothing will work out as you planned and/or hoped.
4) You’re probably going to end your years in a miserable state, kids or no kids, lotsa lovers or not.
5) This idea that the nursing home is divided between on the one hand a bunch of bitter, abandoned near-corpses who failed to bond and propagate and on the other a bunch of radiant, fulfilled old people surrounded by generations of supportive and adoring family members … Well, I’ve spent some time in nursing homes and that isn’t how the landscape looked to me. Nursing homes are full of misery, sadness, and decay. Sometimes someone pays a reluctant visit.
5) While there are many women who are born mommies, there are relatively fewer guys who are born daddies. They do exist, though, and they seem to be made happy enough by a squaresville existence. But then their wives leave them because they’re just too damn boring.
6) Although there’s much that men will never understand about women, women will never, ever understand the sheer inner hammering and restlessness that is the male sex drive. A few women may observe it clearly, a few may be amused and/or sympathetic, a few others may be aroused by it. But none of them will ever understand what it is to live with it as a 24/7, central component of your personality.
7) There’s a lot to be said for great sex, god knows. But there’s also a lot to be said for companionship and loyalty. Luckily, great sex, loyalty and companionship don’t always have to be at odds.
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And we want to be seduced, so there is no ‘hooker’ equivalent for women. All cheating women are also emotionally cheating. That’s why it’s so bad.
Yes. I don’t mind physical cheating nearly as much as emotional cheating. And when they fall for someone new women tend to be either contemptuous or pitying of the boyfriend that’s been displaced. I think because of the emotional element women have a harder time really having multiple partners.
this is exactly what scares me most about marriage.
I thought it was the having to be monogamous?
I’m not Roissy, I’m not generalizing about men either. Just speaking for myself. Especially since I’ve already had lots of women, I could enjoy monogamy. But only so long as the woman remains genuinely in love with me.
What is it that you want? A woman who loves you unconditionally and never wants to cheat and never stops loving you as much as the day you met her even when she has kids? And you want shackles off and the freedom to screw around for passionate affairs with other women who love you? Hmm.
No, I’d rather have the first (which itself is impossibly idealistic — love is never totally unconditional and even women who are in love can have occasional fantasies about others). The second isn’t necessary, I’ve already slept with dozens and dozens of women and have no strong need to switch it up all the time any more. People are people. But I’m not in my 20s any more, most male posters here are (certainly emotionally if not physically).
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As usual, Michael Blowhard’s comment at 106 was superb and accurate. There’s someone who’s definitely not in his 20s.
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You don’t mention anything you two have in common, any shared hobbies, any financial concerns, any shared bonding experiences. For better or worse, you’re not a gold-digger, an adventure seeker, someone looking for a partner in crime, etc.
I have mentioned them previously in fact, but I don’t expect you to read through every one of my posts. We both grew up feasting on the wonders of technology and the Internet. We share many political beliefs. We enjoy playing video games, strategy games, role-playing games, and we exercise together. We eat lunch and take walks together often. We talk a lot, and often, and openly, about our beliefs, experiences, past, etc. We’ve been through a lot of things together, including when he was in jail, when I was hospitalized, when we were both very poor, and when his mother was going through a lot things, and when my mother was going through a lot of things. I could go on.
You’ve got well-defined issues stemming from your father’s abandonment. Every time you speak of your husband it’s about one thing – the security (mostly emotional) that you find in him. … The one track you cannot leave is your man providing you emotional security.
It’s almost as bad as Peter and pubic hair.
When you post about things that might hurt your relationship, it’s not the destruction of a shared relationship that bothers you, it’s the resultant lack of security.
I do have those issues, and knowing what they are helps me rather than hinders me. I do not believe that what I have is so bad — cognitive dissonance perhaps, but he and I are happy. You believe you can know about the ups and downs, ins and outs of a nearly 10 year relationship through casual analysis of my few words here, but you cannot. I am not a clingy harpy or an emotionally turbulent, helplessly broken victim just because of a lack of healthy relationship with my father.
Most women don’t have the deeply emotional hatred of prostitution you do. Sure, they wouldn’t do it themselves, but they don’t get all worked up like you do about it, because they don’t share your issues.
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that I’d be personally fine with the British system where they allow female prostitutes to work for themselves. But projection does not do you any good here. I care because I have empathy and care about many things. Other women do not share my issues, but they have their own issues. I realize my viewpoints are different from that of many women, because frankly I align them to be more in tune with that of the men I find to be enjoyable company.
why don’t you make a specific point or argument and then I can go from there.
This might sound cheesy, but as human beings, we have more in common than we do not. You and many others seem to like to focus on the parts that are different (for example between men and women), but I prefer to look at the parts that are similar. It’s a fundamental shift in perspective, but that is how I look at the world. I think the male vs. female antagonizing is getting out of hand. It doesn’t have to be this way. I do hope people could transcend the muck we’re in, but hopes are fantastical things and rather unrealistic. My name is meant to be ironic, by the way.
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I understand that Eliot Spitzer has three teen aged daughters. Daughters that are soon to be the same age as the women that Eliot has paid to screw and nothing else. His daughters now have learned that their father has spent thousands of dollars over the past few years to screw cute young girls who charge by the hour.
What does this say to his daughters about what he ultimately values in women?
I think Eliot is a piece of trash.
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Hope:
Oooh. You care! You can get a little sticker for that, you know!
I can’t say I’m working up all that much empathy in this little saga. Father steals half a billion from the working man on Wall Street. Son inherits half a billion. Social-ladder-climbing golddigger marries son. Son uses political influence to launder money, put opponents in jail, put cronies in positions of influence, and buy hookers. Hooker charges five grand an hour.
The heart just bleeds at all the pain these people must be going through. Poor, poor little hooker. What a sad tale of an exploited woman at the mercy of an individualistic society.
Wait, what am I saying? For a hundred grand a day *I* would give serious consideration to sex with Eliot Spitzer.
But you care, because you have empathy. Well, I have empathy too – just not these folks. I do respect the hooker, because of all those people, she’s the only one who’s honest with herself about what she is.
Chances are you’re not as open about your abandonment insecurities in the rest of your relationship, just as chances are Peter doesn’t wear shirts in public that say “Glorious Natural Pelt!” and chances are Gannon does not advertise his love for eighth grade girls. Over here, however, none of you are good at hiding it.
I mean seriously, who but self-important yuppie spawn says stuff like “I do hope people could transcend the muck we’re in” while living in a country where the poor are fat?
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Michael Blowhard #106 —
Yep.
I’m a guy in his ’50s, lucky to be a #5, born daddy. I can’t imagine structuring my live as does Roissy. As with Alias Clio, I read about Game for the provocative interest, not for utility or even much truth.
We don’t find happiness by seeking it out. Happiness as a state is not part of the human condition. We (most of us) aren’t put together that way.
Instead, it’s a transition from not-something to something. And as such, it’s fleeting.
Prompted most often by initiatives that have directly-observed effects that register on the faces of the people I know and care about. (Some other things, too.)
The seeming absence of the human scale in Spitzer’s life as he constructed it… how hard it is for me to imagine that his words and deeds prompt open, surprised smiles on those around him. Not choices that I will be urging my kids to emulate.
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…but I prefer to look at the parts that are similar. It’s a fundamental shift in perspective, but that is how I look at the world.
Great, someone with a different perspective. Seriously.
I think the male vs. female antagonizing is getting out of hand.
Do you honestly believe that I am a “male vs female” antagonizer? Really?
If so, I would like to see some sort of reference-point.
I do hope people could transcend the muck we’re in, but hopes are fantastical things and rather unrealistic.
If you were to start from, say, the 1200’s, and begin monitoring Western Civilization, and, well, monitor it on almost all fronts (Science, Art, Literature, Architecture, Technology, Agriculture, etc.), I think that we would be consistently impresses with it’s constant IMPERFECT advancement. Well, until about the 1920’s. (Some people might pick a different decade.)
Still, it was a really nice run, and I don’t think that we should lose Hope. I think that we can regain what was lost. And I am not looking back with Rose-Colored glasses.
I could go on, but I wil leave it at that.
From a few posts back:
My husband judges harshly men who use prostitutes, too (including his brother). He has the same sex drive as most healthy men. You’d probably call him judgmental, though.
So, if he, or anyone, called your husband “judgemental” for this or any other reason, how would you react?
I ask because I believe it is at the very center of what we are talking about.
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Another brilliant comment from Michael Blowhard on #106.
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Reading today’s posts has caused me to conclude that men and women can’t be happy together. I think the only optimal solution would be sex robots for non-alpha men, and polygamist marriages for women so they can marry and copulate with the alpha males. That way, men can get sex on demand, and women can get can the alpha men that they desire. I think this solution will leave everybody happy and content.
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The better solution is simply to massively increase the number of alpha females and alpha males by voluntary eugenics. This will occur way before sex bots, btw. We are going to be able to manipulate not only behavioral traits (yes, IQ, too) but physical traits. This will include:
1) skin color
2) eye color
3) height
4) body build
5) hair color and texture
6) MOST IMPORTANTLY- facial morphology (although as GNXP’s Godless Capitalist has asserted, the genetics behind this will be the more difficult to understand than IQ- but will eventually be understood & done nonetheless)
DA, you fear of voluntary eugenics has always been misguided. The massive benefits of designer babies will far outweigh the potential negatives. As long as everyone can have access to it, it will benefit all of humanity.
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Hope: your analogy is enlightening.
The problem is that, for men, anonymous sex with random women isn’t like eating poop, it’s like eating fudge ice cream with caramel on top while soaking in a warm bath.
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115 David
“Reading today’s posts has caused me to conclude that men and women can’t be happy together.”
Shame on you David. The only reason men and women cannot be happy together is because:
A. They think themselves opposites and therefore impossible to deal with.
B. They think the other is responsible for their happiness.
And there are at least 24 more reasons, I’m sure. I take back what I said previously about men and women being opposites even though the information I heard on that subject (Alison Armstrong, In Sync With the Opposite Sex) made a ton of sense.
Read some Osho last night where he set me STRAIGHT. Men and women are not opposites, they are COMPLIMENTS. Just like hot/cold, love/hate, up/down, heaven/hell. A simple flip of the mind can change your entire viewpoint and life experience if you let it.
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^ We cannot experience heaven without hell and we are meant to experience heaven so hell should also be embraced and celebrated. Life is enhanced if you can accept the paradox and the contrast between what you are living and what you want to live, and therefore cannot appreciate getting what you want if you have nothing to compare it to.
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Over here, however, none of you are good at hiding it.
Why be secretive about who you are when you’re just an anonymous online? It’s not like someone is going to track us down for our discussion of glorious pelts or under-18 girls or emotional insecurities or whatever you seem to think we should be hiding. That’s the beauty of this medium over meat space. You don’t know me, and I don’t know you, and we’ll probably never cross paths. Yet communication exists.
Do you honestly believe that I am a “male vs female” antagonizer? Really?
I didn’t say you were specifically (hence I used general phrasing), but it’s my characterization of what I observe to be a modern phenomenon (perhaps I’m off on this). It may be that people grow up too entrenched with their own gender (what Rina says about men only hanging out with men, and women hanging out with women), whereas in the old days people got married off young and grow up together needing to compromise and understand the other gender’s perspective. Again, I don’t have a magical solution. I don’t even know if I grasp the entirety of the problem, but it’s interesting to try.
So, if he, or anyone, called your husband “judgemental” for this or any other reason, how would you react?
He is who he is regardless of what is said about him. People call him all kinds of things for all sorts of reasons. He gets into discussions and arguments with people for his own reasons. If someone wanted to get a rise out of me specifically by attacking him, well then I’d treat it as if the person was trying to attack me. People are free to say whatever they want. And I’m free to react to it by shrugging, because I don’t stay stressed out or pissed off for too long.
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“We cannot experience heaven without hell and we are meant to experience heaven so hell should also be embraced and celebrated.”
Bulls&$t. How bout you volunteer to live as a beta male/female in the next life and tell us if you feel the same way? If we can have a society filled with alphas, how are you so sure this is not viable or bad? We’ve never tried it before. In one or two hundred years, if not sooner, we may have the technology to allow this. Trying to gauge whether this won’t work simply by the experiences and history of today’s imperfect world is insufficient.
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#61, #70 Peter:
Yes it is true that fertility in Muslim countries is tanking, but it is still higher than rates in the West. It thus becomes a matter of last man standing.
UL, thanks for your support. One would think my points would be obvious.
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BTW, for a woman of her age, Spitzer’s wife is relatively good looking, and she had some acrylic nails, I’d consider banging her along with Spitzer’s escort. 🙂
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DA, you fear of voluntary eugenics has always been misguided.
Voluntary eugenics is nothing but a cover for race realists, and an attempt to purge the black population.
Now to be germane to the original topic, the problem with your method is that it doesn’t solve the emotional issues that may come with being a literal cum dumpster. The only real way around that is to build robots who can replace females as providers of sex. Plus, sex robots allow us to craft the sex partner that fulfills our desire.
They think themselves opposites and therefore impossible to deal with.
The male sex drive isn’t compatible with the female sex drive. Otherwise, men wouldn’t be complaining about the lack of sex with their female partners. Hell, if it wasn’t for the ugliness of most men, homosexuality would probably be a better option than dealing with attempting to find women to have sex.
but it is still higher than rates in the West. It thus becomes a matter of last man standing.
We have advanced technology and bombs. One of our men can kill one hundred of their men. Hell, we can invade their countries, steal their women, and raise half-American, half-Arab kids who will worship Western culture. Trust me, we’re not in trouble from them.
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He is who he is regardless of what is said about him.
I understand. The point that I was trying to get to was…
Well, it wasn’t that long ago that referring to another as a “discriminating man” was a compliment. And, I wanted to know what you thought about your husband, or any adult, being judgemental.
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UL, thanks for your support.
Sho ’nuff.
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By the way, that pic (of the young one) is the worst of the bunch, she’s actually fairly clean looking. I would also point out that the 1% of 50-year old women you refer to basically boils down to Meg Ryan.
I had some witty banter but fuck this reply board is long, I gave up after about post #78.
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#124 DA: We have advanced technology and bombs. One of our men can kill one hundred of their men. Hell, we can invade their countries, steal their women, and raise half-American, half-Arab kids who will worship Western culture. Trust me, we’re not in trouble from them.
Right, and the likelihood of that happening is, in our advanced feminized culture . . . ?
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121
“Bullshit.”
Well, you have no idea what I was trying to express which surprised me not in the least.
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Congratulation! both of your blog, and this post are high ranked in
“The top blogs of the day” report
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Why be secretive about who you are when you’re just an anonymous online? It’s not like someone is going to track us down for our discussion of glorious pelts or under-18 girls or emotional insecurities or whatever you seem to think we should be hiding.
I make no attempt to hide my preference for the Glorious Natural Pelt. Heck, I’ve often talked about it in real life 🙂
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“DA, you fear of voluntary eugenics has always been misguided.”
“Voluntary eugenics is nothing but a cover for race realists, and an attempt to purge the black population.”
Question for you, DA: Should a person who likes white features be opposed to black/white miscegnation because they are afraid of white features being diluted out of the population due to the genetic dominance or co-dominance of black physical features?
You are, after all, assuming that even black people will not want to maintain black features if given the opportunity with eugenics and, therefore, the black phenotype will be ‘bred’ out via designer babies. That seems to be the basis of your point.
So, can’t others use that logic to not want black/white miscegnation if they think that enough miscegnation will lead to a dilution of white features?
I get it. One type of logic is racist but the other type is not because you are black and not white. If it were the other way around, you’d take the opposite viewpoint, which would then be acceptable, of course.
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candy cane:
“Well, you have no idea what I was trying to express which surprised me not in the least.”
Sweetie, that post was meant for people with higher verbal IQs than you so don’t sweat about it…
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[John Smith said] Perhaps the sexbot revolution will make the debate irrelevant.
Mmmmm. SEXbots…
=========
[Rina said (in reference to Chinese girls visiting the Big Apple)] “We’re all relatively the same”
What percentage of Chinese indulge in international travel? That sliver may be relatively the same as a New York blogger, but the idea that the future belongs to the people who breed the most applies, by demographic definition, to proles. See the opening montage in the movie “Idiocracy.”
========
[Michael Blowhard said] lots of way-sensible stuff. Amen.
=============
[che che said] “Hope is the female version of David Alexander.”
What was it that Jones said in Raiders of the Lost Ark in reply to a similar comment? Oh yeah…”Now you’re getting nasty.”
===========
[David Alexander said] “I think the only optimal solution would be sex robots for non-alpha men, and polygamist marriages for women so they can marry and copulate with the alpha males.”
Mmmmm. Mormon SEXbots…
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So, can’t others use that logic to not want black/white miscegnation if they think that enough miscegnation will lead to a dilution of white features?
I get it. One type of logic is racist but the other type is not because you are black and not white. If it were the other way around, you’d take the opposite viewpoint, which would then be acceptable, of course.
Interestingly, I’ve met black people who believe that miscegenation will lead to the dilution of black features, so whites are also not alone in their fears as well. I personally think both groups are racist based on their fears since we’re all human, and humanity shouldn’t be divided between humans and niggers.
The difference between miscegenation and the voluntary eugenics that you speak of is that the former is simply voluntary and based on natural human emotions while the latter relies on picking on a series of bad traits and habits that are commonly associated with the black population, especially the poor black population. Miscegenation is not an overt plan to eliminate either race, but voluntary miscegenation is overwhelmingly focused black people, and such voluntary methods of eugenics have the effect of reducing the black population in large numbers while sparing most whites and nearly all Asians. It certainly reeks of racism to me, and I imagine it would to others.
You are, after all, assuming that even black people will not want to maintain black features if given the opportunity with eugenics and, therefore, the black phenotype will be ‘bred’ out via designer babies. That seems to be the basis of your point.
There is a considerably difference from attempting to make your children appear a certain way, and stating that a certain group of people don’t deserve to breed, which implies that group doesn’t deserve to exist.
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Hope is the uber feminist, in the truest, most positive sense of the word. I hope you know that.
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Hope, at #71, you wrote “Those coercive methods [raping someone] are not in everyone’s genes either. Something like half the men out there have rapist genes, and the other half do not.”
Could you expand on this, clarify it, or retract it? Because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, to be honest. Are you really asserting that there is a rape gene or a combination of genes that makes some men rapists? I’m not aware that there is any scientific way to determine accurately who is a rapist and who is not based on genetic testing. Also, do I understand correctly that you are asserting that 50% of men are actual [or at least potential] rapists based on their genetic makeup?
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Sorry for the delay folks, but sometimes real life catches up. The biggest truth in life is that men want to make love to young, fertile women. That is women between the ages of 13 to 28. This urge does not stop. Women, at a certain point of their life switch their affection from men to their children. But men do not. While men love their children, their natural drive is to impregnate young fertile women. A lot of men don’t reproduce, probably up to 50%, while most women, at least before feminism did. Fertile women are scarce, because basiccallyy 14-60 year old men want to screw women in the 13-28 year range. I for example date teen girls not only because I can get away with it, but because women my age are coveted by pretty much everybody and their grandfather. Women don´t understand men´s strong sexual urges. That´s why some women believe rape is about power, it’s not, it is just another way to procreate. I still believe the best way for a society to function is to marry of it’s teen daughters to men in their twenties, and let these women enter the college and labor market in their late twenties/early thirties. Also, men married to younger women willl be much less likely to commit adultery and be happy with their younger wifes. The actual model of marrying women the same age pushes successful middleaged men into the arms of younger women.
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Speaking of this age gap thing, it now appears that “Kristen” might be 32, not 22.
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Well, by some accounts Spitzer’s wife was 6 years younger than he was (48 vs 54 – though I’ve seen different figures), which is just about the age difference you recommend – the bride of 18 or so married to the groom of 24. It doesn’t seem to have done her much good. And what about the man of 60 who still wants a 25 year old rather than a 50 year old, which you all insist is inevitable? Anyway, as one of the posters here says, this man wasn’t concerned with age but with variety.
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At least in the picture featured by Roissy, Kristen looks like a woman in her late twenties. By the way, I recommend age difference of around 10 yeras. That age difference is probably ver useful when the man is around 40. At forty, men still get a lot of attention form women in their late twenties, so having a still attractive 30 year old woman instead of an old 40 yeat old woman makes a huge difference. 60 year old man can want a lot of thing, but probably anywoman below 40 will just consider him an old fool, unless he has a lot of money or power.
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Hope is the uber feminist, in the truest, most positive sense of the word. I hope you know that.
Rina, I find it interesting that you called Hope an “uber feminist, in the truest, most positive sense of the word” immediately after she said that “hope” is a fantastical and unrealistic thing. And that her handle/name is meant to be ironic.
In other words, after she expressed real nihilism.
I am not criticizing Hope, I thought that she made some good arguments. But, well, I find that interesting.
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Dear UL,
I don’t think that was nihilism. Perhaps realism when it comes to ya’ll and people in general? And this is how most women who see reality and want to be happy (my def. of a *postive* feminist) have been for centuries. There is no changing you guys, the end. Live with it, and be happy with whatever you’ve got.
Is that a foreign concept?
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Rina, the converstaion that Hope and I were having had almost nothing to do with things like Prostitution, or Older Men/Younger Women, or anything like that.
We were talking about Cultures, Nations, Religion and Strongly Held Beliefs.
Specifically, we were talking about immigration and whether people were assimilating and coming together or rather finding ways to live apart from one another.
That was then she said those things.
So, I am not wanting to derail the point, but you said some things that deserve attention.
There is no changing you guys, the end.
I am assuming that you are refering to men in general. (If you are speaking about specific guys on this forum, well, that is for them to address.) To see what was typical behaviour of Men in say, the mid 1800’s relative to Men living in the thick of the Victorian age relative to the 1950’s and then, again, relative to the 70’s (i.e. Alan Alda, Phil Donohue ideal) and then, finally, today. Well, I would say that the actions of your average man went through many changes. And, in my lifetime, I fully suspect to see some more.
Live with it, and be happy with whatever you’ve got.
Again, I find statements like this fairly depressing. It is hard for to think of the people of Calcutta, North Korea or, hell, Detroit, and place too much value in that piece of advice.
I understand that you meant well. But I think that we can do so much better.
Some dreams are unrealistic…others are not. To see how mcuh we accomplished over the last 700 years is almost mind-boggling.
Hell, notions of Romantic Love were basically none-existant 700 years ago. Not only did Technology, Science, Art and, well, everything else that is tangible advance, but so did our ideals.
So, it is not a foreign concept, but one that I do not want to get too friendly with.
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U.L.
“Hell, notions of Romantic Love were basically none-existant 700 years ago.”
Romantic love is the bane of marriage and great long term relationships. Romantic love is highly immature in my opinion. Real love is something rarely experienced by anyone. It’s easy to “fall in love” and let the hormones blind you to another’s “faults”. When a woman falls in love with a Greek man, for example, he becomes a Greek God in her eyes. She may even marry her Greek God in an elaborate and expensive ceremony, only to find out when the spell is broken that she’s married a Goddamned Greek! We should try to do away with romantic love altogether. It’s a silly waste of time and just causes tons and tons of grief and broken stupid sentimental dreams. Been there a few times myself, so I speak from experience. I read a quote “Love is wanting something to live.” How many times have you heard of someone wishing their “beloved” dead?
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Thanks Rina. Yes I am a realist, and practical when it comes to most matters including finances and relationships. (It should also be said that Hope is the name I chose for one of my online gaming characters that can heal and resurrect with holy powers, so how much more fantastical can you get?) I don’t think that feminism should be something man-bashing or anti-men, much as “being a real man” is not synonymous with banging as many girls as you can or being violent/top dog.
Being a real man or woman is to fulfill the best of your biology, no the worst of it — a man being the physically strong, willful protector and not the sex-crazed rapist / rage-filled murderer, and a woman being the emotionally empathic, caring nurturer, not an emotionally-turbulent harpy or selfish, self-entitled bitch. Not everything in our nature should be celebrated or let out with wild abandon.
Could you expand on this, clarify it, or retract it? Because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, to be honest. Are you really asserting that there is a rape gene or a combination of genes that makes some men rapists? I’m not aware that there is any scientific way to determine accurately who is a rapist and who is not based on genetic testing.
I don’t have a direct link to the article that cites this, but here’s one co-written by a professor I studied under, with research on the subjective/objective measuring of sexual arousal to visual stimuli. As you can see from the synopsis, men are very specific in their physical response to visual stimuli (if they don’t like animal sex, they simply won’t get an erection).
The overall conclusion is that around half of men in the research (though of course the research participants are self-selected and bias the results) of men who are visually aroused by scenes obviously portraying violent sex and rape, and half the men were turned off by such portrayals. All women in the study self-reported psychologically turned off, but they showed mild genital response to animal sex and rape, likely an evolutionary protective for the female reproductive tract during such times. I would say this is rather strong evidence for link between rape and genetics.
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Romantic love is the bane of marriage and great long term relationships.
Candy, you are talking about a phrase that could probably be defined 50 different ways. Basically, it was a notion that went against arranged marriages.
Real love is something rarely experienced by anyone.
I am assuming that you have some good surveys/polls that back up that statement?
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138 Gannon
” The actual model of marrying women the same age pushes successful middleaged men into the arms of younger women.”
Check your stats, Gannon. I read somewhere that there is a definite upward trend in men marrying women much closer to their own age and OLDER; at least in Europe which in my opinion is in many ways a more mature culture in general.
Yes, yes, yes, one can make all kinds of arguments against that I suppose! Personally, I believe I will end up with a much younger man because they are just not as “polluted” as those my own age or older. Of course I’m generalizing in a big way here, but vitality is what really matters. Vitality in energy, attitude, sex, thinking, passion, sense of adventure, initiative, and creativity.
As people get older they get more polluted physically too. I think this accounts for the “old people” smell. I’m big on good smells and it seems many men like that “baby fresh” smell of younger women. I keep myself unpolluted by detoxing and staying fit and clean. I have a man who is 14 years younger VERY much interested in my right now…..brag, brag, brag.
BTW, Spitzer’s wife looks like a complete phony. A black hole. In my opinion, OF COURSE, they are both idiots. 🙂
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UL,
Sometimes when one thing gets better (women have more rights) other things get worse (society loses the stigma of not being married).
As I get older, I think the solution to everything is just to have a positive outlook. Your house is crummy? Hey, you have a house. Your boyfriend not perfect? He has so many great qualities, though.
If your standard reaction is to criticize and always want more, nothing will ever be good enough and you will spent the majority of your precious lifetime hating everything.
Stop and look at what’s amazing around you. I’m sure you’ll find something. When I talk of the good things religion can offer (even though I’m technically an atheist) it’s really just a positive outlook on things. Roissy often writes of ugly truths, but man, there are so many BEAUTIFUL truths. Like that you’re bloody alive. L’chaim.
I hope this isn’t too cheesy or sentimental, but I think Hope and I are in the same boat.
Real love is something rarely experienced by anyone.
If you’re patient, and you choose wisely, you can experience it, too. Sometimes it takes a little while to manifest itself.
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146 U.L.
Uh oh, U.L. I have a very, very busy day today business wise and cannot be tempted into posting tons of comments here today! Roissy is a terrible influence on us all!
Please, may I make a suggestion? #1 to site a poll or statistics on “real love” and if and how people experience is ludicrous to the nth degree. It’s like asking a fish to describe the ocean. It’s all around, like love, it’s everywhere surrounding the fish. How can the fish describe it? Impossible.
So, how can I describe it? Check out “Sex Matters” by Osho. He will be better able to describe it! I could quote a beautiful passage from his book I just started reading last night, but have no time. I am feeling touched by life and love more and more. Have you ever cried just from the sheer joy of life? Or from the sheer joy of love or making love to a woman? That is love. When the joy becomes so great you are overflowing and love becomes your state of being. Am not saying by any means I am there, but have experienced this off and on.
Let me say, no one is a cynic about life on their death bed. I would rather have that appreciation for life and love as often as possible before I come to that point. Am not saying you are cynical. You seem quite a gentle and authentic and searching soul. Reminds me of a saying I will attempt to remember: “Love, essence, (etc.) will never be found by seeking, but only seekers find it.”
That is all!!! 😀
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A lot of men like to have sex with attarctive, older women. But don’t expect it to last
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Your house is crummy? Hey, you have a house. Your boyfriend not perfect? He has so many great qualities, though.
I don’t think that the people of North Korea worry about those problems too much. Or, heck, the people of West Baltimore either.
If your standard reaction is to criticize and always want more, nothing will ever be good enough and you will spent the majority of your precious lifetime hating everything.
After you read my last post you thought of me as criticizing and hating?
I hope this isn’t too cheesy or sentimental, but I think Hope and I are in the same boat.
I don’t think that you addressed any of the things that I actually said. I am not sure what to say to all this.
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Perhaps realism when it comes to ya’ll and people in general? And this is how most women who see reality and want to be happy
Thanks Rina. Yes I am a realist, and practical when it comes to most matters including finances and relationships. I don’t think that feminism should be something man-bashing or anti-men, much as “being a real man” is not synonymous with banging as many girls as you can or being violent/top dog.
Being a real man or woman is to fulfill the best of your biology, no the worst of it — a man being the physically strong, willful protector and not the sex-crazed rapist / rage-filled murderer, and a woman being the emotionally empathic, caring nurturer, not an emotionally-turbulent harpy or selfish, self-entitled bitch. Not everything in our nature should be celebrated or let out with wild abandon.
UL, it should also be noted that Hope is the name I chose for one of my online gaming characters that can heal and resurrect with holy powers, so it’s pretty fantastical. The irony in the name has to something to do with the way that people tend to treat healers like crap in games, despite the fact that we was support and help others. Think “hope without wings” — not quite nihilistic, but more like hope grounded, if you will.
Could you expand on this, clarify it, or retract it? Because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, to be honest. Are you really asserting that there is a rape gene or a combination of genes that makes some men rapists? I’m not aware that there is any scientific way to determine accurately who is a rapist and who is not based on genetic testing.
I don’t have a direct link to the article that cites this, but here’s one co-written by a professor I studied under, with research on the subjective/objective measuring of sexual arousal to visual stimuli. As you can see from the synopsis, men are very specific in their physical response to visual stimuli (if they don’t like animal sex, they simply won’t get an erection).
The overall conclusion is that around half of men in the research (though of course the research participants are self-selected and bias the results) of men who are visually aroused by scenes obviously portraying violent sex and rape, and half the men were turned off by such portrayals. All women in the study self-reported psychologically turned off, but they showed mild genital response to animal sex and rape, likely an evolutionary protective for the female reproductive tract during such times. I would say this is rather compelling evidence for a link between rape and genetics. Others may disagree however.
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#1 to site a poll or statistics on “real love” and if and how people experience is ludicrous to the nth degree.
Candy, you made an actual positive assertion.
I will quote you again:
Real love is something rarely experienced by anyone.
Maybe this is true. maybe it isn’t I don’t know. But you certainly said it. I was curious to know where you got this fact from (yes, your statement was a statement of fact).
Now, I am guessing that you were stating an opinion. But, that is not what you were doing.
Let me say, no one is a cynic about life on their death bed.
Uh oh, here I go again. So, this is another fact. Again, I am curious where this comes from. Or is this another opinion stated to sound like a fact?
Candy, may I make a suggestion to you: “If you mean to state an opinion, then do that. If you meant to state a fact, then do that. If you mean to state a belief, then do that. But, to do one, then later on imply that it is another, well, who on earth can follow that?”
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U.L. 152
“Now, I am guessing that you were stating an opinion. But, that is not what you were doing.”
Let me state unequivocally; just about all my statements are opinions. The only facts I could state are things like ‘^’ that way is up and ‘v’ that way is down. In fact probably 95% of what I say is bullshit in someone’s opinion and they would not be wrong. In fact perhaps some of what I believe today will be bullshit even in my own opinion tomorrow. That is evolution and growth….IN MY OPINION. I have no particular attachment to my beliefs or a hardcore (contrary to what it might appear) desire to sway anyone elses opinion to match mine. I am so arrogant as to call my beliefs “facts”. They may be facts to ME, though. At least as long as I believe them!
I assume a fact is something that is 100 obvious to everyone? Like gravity?
Now quit talking to me!!! I’m too busy today. 😀
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DA:
“… stating that a certain group of people don’t deserve to breed, which implies that group doesn’t deserve to exist.”
I’ve never said that to you nor would I support a policy that restricts people’s rights to breed or exist. I’ve discussed this issue with you before but you insist flat out ignoring what I’ve actually said on the matter and making up stuff.
What you are actually proposing in the above statement is INVOLUNTARY eugenics, which I absolutely don’t support. There is a huge philosophical gap between involuntary and voluntary eugenics. One is Nazism; the other is the manifest destiny of the human race. I suspect you’ll once again ignore this statement, and we’ll have to have this conversation again. So be it…
I would only support voluntary eugenics if people had almost full access to do whatever they wanted with respect to designer babies. They could have the kids look more black or white or whatever. I strongly suspect that they will have their kids be the same race as them but will insist that they look like the best looking examples of that race (i.e. for blacks that would be like Tyra Banks or Blair Underwood… etc).
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Let me state unequivocally; just about all my statements are opinions.
Yeah, I could figure that out. However, you state so many of them as if they were facts. It is confusing.
In fact probably 95% of what I say is bullshit in someone’s opinion and they would not be wrong.
I guess Roissy was right about you after all.
I am so arrogant as to call my beliefs “facts”. They may be facts to ME, though.
Candy, come on. Seriously, at this point, I am thinking that I should never even look at one of those Osho books if this is how one of his followers/readers talks. Those two statements make no sense.
If you look to provide nothing solid, why would anyone want to listen or take in anything you say. And if you say that you “don’t care” is anyone listens, then I don’t know what to say to that.
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155 U.L.
“f you look to provide nothing solid,..”
What solid thing do you want? Life is fluid and paradoxical and magical, and scientific, and heaven and hell. Love is not solid. I am not interested in solidity. Read Osho if you want, don’t if you don’t. You are a free person and freedom is the only thing worth seeking. Osho is considered “spiritually incorrect”; a rebel of the highest order. I read him for one reason, and one reason only: Because it makes me feel good! Seriously, why else are we here?
Check out these two YouTube vids:
#1 is Osho himself speaking on the word “Fuck” and it’s many uses.
#2 is Puppetji; a spoof on Osho.
If it does no make you laugh, you just don’t understand Osho (yet?) and his love of life and humanity. He would have loved the spoof! Why? Because it’s funny and people should laugh and enjoy life contrary to public opinion.
I don’t think you’re used to people not forcing things on you?
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^ U.L. In my opinion the only solid thing we can have in this life is what we earn and therefore give ourselves. Everything else can be taken away. And I state things as facts because they are facts to me in the moment I speak them. I am an evolving being! How is that solid? How CAN it be solid? Questions, questions, questions. Life is made up of more questions than answers, and I’ve just gotten used to that, and I like it actually.
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And I state things as facts because they are facts to me in the moment I speak them.
Candy, that makes no sense.
Black is White.
Up is Down.
War is Peace.
Yes is No.
Fidelity is Infidelity.
Fact is Fiction.
Lies are truth.
The Sun rises in the East -> No it does not.
The Moon orbits the Earth. -> No it does not.
Roissy is bad. -> Roissy is good.
Roissy is wrong -> Roissy is right.
Don’t be a player -> Be a player.
Don’t play Games -> Play Games.
The Catholics are obscenely idiotic. -> The Catholics are amazingly intelligent.
India has so much to offer -> India has little to offer.
There is no Right and Wrong. (Put another way, it is Wrong to believe that there is a Wrong.)
———————————-
But, if you firmly believe this, then I guess I know what to think of everything you say from now on.
I was hoping to learn from people who felt that they had something real to offer. But, I will know not to listen to people who say that they talk a lot, but everything they say SHOULD be ignored and shot down.
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158 U.L.
You are impossible! What do you expect from people? Perhaps your expectation is out of line.
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BTW I don’t know if my 156 comment is displaying to anyone but me cuz it says “awaiting moderation”. I doubt it will help though. Methinks you take yourself a bit too seriously.
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You are impossible!
Candy, I am curious, do you think that of, say, Clio and Hope find me impossible to understand (or deal with)? And, what might they think of what you have to say?
No, I understand, “It isn’t important what they think. It is isn’t important what anyone thinks.”
Yes, yes, I know, we would all be better off being Sociopaths.
I engage, I listen, I dissect, I attempt to understand, learn, improve.
When I say something, I stand by it. If someone says something that turns me around, well, hell, good for me. I am learning, becoming, I hope, a better person.
Now, when you say that I am impossible, should I follow your previous advice and KNOW that it is b*llshit?
Let me know. I engage(d) you for a reason. The same reason I engage most. If you tell me that “Yes is No”, then, I will know what to think of your statements from now on.
If you say, “I believe I can offer insight into this. I believe X, I know Y, I can see Z.”
I don’t think anyone is looking for perfection. For omniscience. We are human. We are looking for understanding, hopefully.
Ther are real things in this world. And they really matter. These things, these actions, these people, these ideas, they have consequences.
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161
“There are real things in this world. And they really matter. These things, these actions, these people, these ideas, they have consequences.”
No, really???!!! Yeah, I’ve noticed. I’m doing well in my life. I’m happy most of the time. What else can I do? Try to please everyone else? Did you see the Youtube vids?
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What you are actually proposing in the above statement is INVOLUNTARY eugenics, which I absolutely don’t support.
You’ve stated that you have wished to pay certain groups from breeding. Given that these groups are mostly poor and will do anything for money, one can consider it to be a coercive attempt to eliminate the members of that group.
I still believe the best way for a society to function is to marry of it’s teen daughters to men in their twenties, and let these women enter the college and labor market in their late twenties/early thirties.
Firstly, your system deprives young men of mature, intelligent women who can challenge them and help promote their social growth. The 19 year old girl at work is cute and bubbly, but she’s fucking stupid and immature. In contrast, in a few years, she’d be much smarter, mature, and able to provide coherent thoughts like an adult. You’ve claimed that older women would have sex with young men, yet you’ve just stated their children sap their attention, thus depriving any sexuality that was left.
Secondly, your system deprives women of any enjoyment of their lives in their youth. You turn them into cheap breeding mills during their youth, and then unleash them into the world when they’re tired and intellectually destroyed from raising their children. As an example, a 40 year old woman cannot enjoy a trip around the world in the same way that her 24 year old counterpart can.
Thirdly, your system reduces the labour market value of women, and prevents them from achieving any real success in the corporate and business world which makes working almost pointless for them, and nearly pointless for employers to use the women as labour. Nobody will employ a 35 year old female with no experience in marketing, engineering, law or any real corporate position, and nobody wants to go to college to become a secretary or manager at a store.
Fourthly, I suspect even with a ten year difference, men will continue to cheat because they want more opportunities to breed per your theory. A fifty year old man with a forty year old wife will have no problems in helping a thirty year old woman cuckold her husband.
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Good for you. You may have noticed that there are real things in this world, but you don’t seem to want to put anything real, solid, in your comments.
No, don’t please me. You are not my servant. But, go ahead and offer something real. I, and others, can take it.
I am assuming that you will not be right or completely insightful 100% of the time. No one is.
But to say that it is all bullsh*t, that facts are just what you believe at that moment, is to nullify everything.
It nullifies everything that you say and it nullifies what everyone else says. That is, if it is truly to be believed.
I don’t want to nullify what you say. If you have something to add, I want to hear it. I want to take it in. Process it.
But, if it is nothing, then, it is nothing.
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DA:
“You’ve stated that you have wished to pay certain groups from breeding.”
No, I haven’t, and I have absolutely NO IDEA where you got the notion that I ever said this!!! Like I said, you are making crap up and completely ignoring the main points of my comments on voluntary eugenics!!!
What I would advocate is allowing government subsidies to allow poor people (and if need be, the middle class, too) to have access to voluntary eugenic programs to produce designer babies of their own like the upper classes are going to do. That way all socioeconomic groups will be allowed to have ‘better’ progeny, and the human race (as a whole) can more quickly advance to the next level.
BTW, nobody would be forced to have designer babies if they don’t want to. I am not interested in forcing anyone to do or not do anything. How much clearer can I make that!!!
But, with respect to the issue of paying certain groups to stop breeding… I have to think about whether I would or wouldn’t support it. I am not a pure Libertarian but have a lot of Libertarian traits. Please don’t take this as a positive or negative statement on this singular point at the moment. I feel a need to spell this out for you because otherwise you are going to completely misinterpret what I’ve said, and we’ll go through this again…
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curious:
Because the strange is always better than the usual….I don’t care how hot anybody is…after you’ve fucked them a few times you are ready for something else to catch your eye. Again, one of the biological differences between men and women that women like Hope don’t understand at all.
Then shut your trap about how hot vs. not hot or young vs. old is the the main idea. Men seek variety, plain, ugly, and simple.
not quite right.
men seek variety in women but won’t go below a minimum threshold of female attractiveness if they have the option to not do so. variety is never gotten at the expense of beauty. the beauty always comes first. silda spitzer was no longer beautiful so she could not compete with ashley the young hot whore.
hugh grant is the glaring exception to the rule. in cases like that, where there is a superalpha like hugh who is used to boffing tons of beautiful women, sometimes there is a weird allure in slumming it with a street ho. but for the majority of alpha males, variety means variety of hot chicks only.
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DA:
“There is a considerably difference from attempting to make your children appear a certain way, and stating that a certain group of people don’t deserve to breed, which implies that group doesn’t deserve to exist.”
As has been pointed out, you are conflating voluntary eugenics for involuntary. I actually think it’s inappropriate & (as importantly) not feasible to try to abridge people’s rights to mate with whomever they want or limit their future access to voluntary eugenics programs.
But, I just want to point out again that a person who like white features would potentially have a problem with black/white miscegnation due to the dilution of white features from the populace and, quite importantly, the genetic dominance or co- dominance of many black physical characteristics compared to white physical characteristics. For example, Obama is considered the ‘black candidate’ despite being genetically half/half due exclusively to his mroe black looking phenotype.
Given your sexual predilections, I doubt you’d like to see a world totally devoid of such attractive white characteristics either. All the more reason to allow voluntary eugenics.
Any fears that the black race will be ‘bred out’ are risible on their face and clearly shows your immature and reactionary thought process on this issue.
Ugly phenotypes of all races might be ‘bred out,’ but the races themselves will continue to exist- albeit with representative ‘model types’ as future offspring. Many of these future offspring will be ‘spared’ from otherwise miserable lives as ugly people, too, due to genetic alterations that would presumably be made at the behest of their ugly, any race parents during the zygotic/pre- zygotic stage. There will be more good- looking people for you to lust after, btw.
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Perhaps it’s a matter of semantics, but I would say that Mrs Spitzer is still beautiful, but that (by most men’s standards, at any rate), she’s no longer “hot”, no longer sexy. But she has kept her features and her colouring, as many pretty women do not, especially if they gain weight, or – and this is a big one – drink too much.
Audrey Hepburn stayed beautiful (if not sexy). Elizabeth Taylor hasn’t.
Debbie Harry, Joni Mitchell, Michelle Phillips, and many other women of that generation lost their beauty via drugs or alcohol or hard living or weight gain. I suppose from a man’s point of view that none of them is sexy – but Julie Christie, on the other hand, is certainly still beautiful.
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Alias Clio, you should really not believe that Roissy’s tastes are all men’s tastes. Read some of the comments by the boys over on reddit (a mostly age 20-35 crowd). A lot of them think Mrs. Spitzer is a MILF and very hot, and several comments have 50+ upvotes (meaning many guys agreed with the sentiment).
http://reddit.com/info/6bv04/comments/c03fha0
http://reddit.com/info/6bjrr/comments/c03elxe
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Roissy;
You can have the girl, I want the woman.
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Can someone define what an Alpha male is
I thought an Alpha male was a man who is very good looking,tall(6 feet +), wealthy and strong. Why are people calling Spritser an Alpha male. He is not goodlooking or tall(the two most important parts of an Alpha male).
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Hope, in #146 and #153, you said, “The overall conclusion is that around half of men in the research (though of course the research participants are self-selected and bias the results) of men who are visually aroused by scenes obviously portraying violent sex and rape, and half the men were turned off by such portrayals. All women in the study self-reported psychologically turned off, but they showed mild genital response to animal sex and rape, likely an evolutionary protective for the female reproductive tract during such times. I would say this is rather strong evidence for link between rape and genetics.”
I wouldn’t say it’s strong evidence, or even much in the way of evidence at all, of such a link. In fact, it’s quite a leap from the reported reactions themselves to saying they’re genetically based. I can think of other ways to interpret this data that have nothing to do with genetics, but with socialization instead.
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i don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this, but the two pictures look like the same person taken 30 years apart. what if spincter was trying to recapture the experience of being with his wife when they were both younger. this could be the romance story of the decade…
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hope lost all perspective:
Read some of the comments by the boys over on reddit (a mostly age 20-35 crowd). A lot of them think Mrs. Spitzer is a MILF and very hot
what do you expect a bunch of nerdboys on reddit to say? it’s considered cool to rave about the sexiness of MILFs amongst certain loser crowds.
my tastes are nearly all men’s tastes. that is why it is the same few hot chicks in every bar that all the guys want.
i would bet my life savings that if you offered sex with ashley or silda to 100 reddit dorks 99 of them would choose ashley.
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what if spincter was trying to recapture the experience of being with his wife when they were both younger.
aging is the unkindest cut of all.
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Hope, Roissy, I was only trying to make the point that a beauty can remain beautiful (if she doesn’t drink or get fat), even when she is past the age of “sexiness”.
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alias, i think what we have here is a failure to standardize our definitions. you sound like you’re using the old school meaning of “beauty”, which is “a classy woman of any age”.
to men, beauty means “she’s hot and it inspires me to want to sleep with her and make her my girlfriend.”
my definition of beauty is the more conventionally accepted one.
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No, Roissy – “class” has nothing to do with it. I was thinking about the basic facial harmony that doesn’t have to change much with age, although it sometimes does.
Your definition may be more conventionally accepted – but it loses part of the meaning of both beauty and of sexiness, esp. since I think it’s very possible to be sexy without being beautiful. Ellen Barkin in her prime was sexy not beautiful; now, I suppose, you could say that she’s a “classy woman of any age”, but I still wouldn’t call her beautiful, and I suppose most men wouldn’t call her sexy, either, though a few might. Kathleen Turner, before she got so heavy, was sexy without ever being a regular beauty.
I think Spitzer’s call girl, too, is sexy without being quite a beauty, though she certainly has a beautiful body. To compare her to a woman her own age, I’d say that she’s sexier than Mischa Barton (for example), but that Mischa Barton is more beautiful.
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alias, beauty and sexiness are highly correlated. there are very few beautiful women that aren’t sexy (and by sexy, i mean that men would want to have sex with them) and there are very few sexy women that aren’t more attractive than the average woman. so while the sexy ellen barkin in her prime was not a raving beauty, she was certainly more physically attractive than the majority of women.
but this is one of those semantic areas where women try to muddy the waters while men are crystal clear in their meaning.
as for silda, if you don’t like “classy”, try subtituting “refined” or “elegant”. for the record, the 22 year old silda was probably better looking than 22 year old ashley. but time has a way of stripmining the glow from even the most beautiful faces.
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Aargh. It’s not muddying the waters. It’s clarifying them by making distinctions. And it’s not just women who do this. I’ve known men to make the same distinction; in fact, it’s one that I originally got from a man.
Incidentally, I once read an article by Irma Kurtz, who now writes advice columns (at least I think she still does) for Cosmopolitan. In her early years, she had worked as one of the people who chooses the photos that will appear in layouts in skin magazines. When she started, she made the mistake of choosing the ones she thought most beautiful. Her manager taught her that even the most beautiful women, including actresses (too narcissistic), or models (too cold and unavailable-looking), were less desirable for pinup spreads than girls with blank pink faces, posed to look as passive as possible.
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what do you expect a bunch of nerdboys on reddit to say? it’s considered cool to rave about the sexiness of MILFs amongst certain loser crowds.
I wouldn’t call the reddit crowd “losers,” though nerd is almost certainly true. A lot of these guys have quite a bit of wealth, status, and have girlfriends/wives etc. They might not fit your definition of “alpha” but they are certainly not suffering from a great deal of loss in society. A lot of normal men rave about the sexiness of MILFs, but you seem to believe they’re all losers for finding such women sexy. To ask a famous Roissy question: are you a man hater?
to men, beauty means “she’s hot and it inspires me to want to sleep with her and make her my girlfriend.”
This is an area where men might be crystal clear in their meaning, but wiser women go for men who are a bit more discerning — i.e. who go for more than physical appearances in their girlfriends / wives. Just as a wiser man picks women who are into men that have more than just wealth and “alpha” indicators.
I wouldn’t say it’s strong evidence, or even much in the way of evidence at all, of such a link. In fact, it’s quite a leap from the reported reactions themselves to saying they’re genetically based.
Biology is more complicated than mere genetics, it’s true. Epigenetics and environmental factors play a significant role. It’s likely, however, that rape has played a role in evolution.
Randy Thornhill and Craig T. Palmer in A Natural History of Rape argue that rape is a biological trait with some natural reproductive advantages, and men have inherited this rape gene from their ancestors. Their assertion (not mine): “There is no doubt that rape has evolutionary — and hence genetic — origins.”
But just because you have a rape gene doesn’t mean you’re a rapist. It simply means that it’s a part of the evolutionary past. Just because a guy with violent genes wants to punch everyone who pisses him off, does not mean he will.
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Gisele Bündchen is sexy but certainly not beautiful. Carla Bruni is sexy but not beautiful. Yet both get so many “Alpha” men.
Please explain Roissy.
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Chic Noir, since Roissy hasn’t answered, I’ll try to tackle your first question about Alpha males (I once asked him the same thing, and this is what he told me): an Alpha male is one who has enough “game”, meaning self-confidence with women; sexual dominance, to attract many beautiful women and persuade them to sleep with him. Money, career, worldly success, good looks, height and so forth can be helpful for this kind of confidence and success with women but they are not essential. Once you learn “game”, which involves much social and psychological discipline, you don’t really need the rest of those qualities.
As for Gisele and Carla, I’m sure Roissy would say that they may be unconventional beauties but are still far more beautiful than average.
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thanks alias
If he thinks thats what makes an alpha male, he is fooling himself. Women go for looks too, maybe not as much as the average male but looks count for a lot with both sexes. Thats why its so hard to a poor 50 year old man with a hot 20 year old. Millionare John Stamos can pull women much easier than billionare Donald Trump.
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Chic Noir
Gisele Bündchen is sexy but certainly not beautiful
That is true. Once you cross a certain threshold, improvements in physical beauty yield lesser returns. Nearly all women over the rating of 8 are beautiful, the difference between the 8 and the 10 are the intangibles: How she speaks, the way she moves, her personality, the way her hair falls on her face and so on. Likewise if she is deficient in these intangibles she gets moved down on the rating scale despite having a hot body.
Calista Flockhart and Audrey Hepburn are roughly similar in physical rating, but Audrey has “it” while Calista doesn’t.
Even Roissy’s Love, Marion Cotillard who is 32 by the way, is physically a 7 in my books but she has that “it” which elevates her to a 9.
Liz Hurley on the other hand is probably physically a 9 but when she opens her mouth she shoots straight down to a 4. Banging Liz Hurley would certainly earn you points amongst your male peers but it would not be much of a personal achievement to person of standards. Hugh Grant paid to have sex with Divine Brown when Liz was giving it away for free; it doesn’t say much for Liz.
my tastes are nearly all men’s tastes
Common tastes Roissy? I’m disappointed.
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my tastes are nearly all men’s tastes
Common tastes Roissy? I’m disappointed
Tastes very according to culture for the most part. The only thing that you will find world wide(for the most part) are women likeing tall men and men liking younger women.
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“Liz Hurley on the other hand is probably physically a 9 but when she opens her mouth she shoots straight down to a 4. Banging Liz Hurley would certainly earn you points amongst your male peers but it would not be much of a personal achievement to person of standards. Hugh Grant paid to have sex with Divine Brown when Liz was giving it away for free; it doesn’t say much for Liz.”
It’s no reflection on Liz one way or the other. It’s already been determined here that men crave variety about all else, and HG seeking out a hooker was cited as an example of this.
And I quote:
monohechomierda:
“Because the strange is always better than the usual….I don’t care how hot anybody is…after you’ve fucked them a few times you are ready for something else to catch your eye. Again, one of the biological differences between men and women that women like Hope don’t understand at all.”
and roissy himself:
“in cases like that, where there is a superalpha like hugh who is used to boffing tons of beautiful women, sometimes there is a weird allure in slumming it with a street ho. but for the majority of alpha males, variety means variety of hot chicks only.”
So it’s purely about HG’s quirky tastes, not some lack on LH’s part.
I don’t get the LH dismissal, anyway — she’s incredibly beautiful, sexy (well, I think so, but I’m female so what can I possibly know about that?) successful, has a sense of humor & good comic timing, and seems reasonably articulate. My god, if LH is insufficient, what chance do the rest of us stand?!
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My god, if LH is insufficient, what chance do the rest of us stand?!
I don’t know, sometimes the guy loves you. It makes him less prone to cheating on you.
Also, some of the boys here as well as their master have a fetish for blaming women for things. I know some things are innate, but your wording is oh so similar to the way ‘feminists’ have phrased things in the past.
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Gannon–I just wanted to quickly write to you about how most of the people feel about you discussing super young teens and why we get so frustrated and upset. (and this is from someone who does not normally comment about these issues regularly)…and this is not an attack, I just want to explain something as a woman.
I understand that you physically and naturally desire younger women, but I think you are missing out the point that most young young girls (the kind you are talking about–not 19, but 14) are still babies. At 17, physically, yes they are developed. They are still young, but I get it. But at 14? No. AT TWELVE?! TWELVE? This is borderline scary.
Its not infantilization, its the facts. Even if they have the physical attributes, at 14 years old, 100 % of the girls I knew growing up were children at that age. We were giggly about kissing a boy with tongue…the idea of sex was terrifying to ALL of us.
And at 12, we were in MIDDLE school. Not even high school. That’s right, straight out of elementary school.
Also, I did not get my period till right before I was 14, and again the majority of girls I knew growing up (white, middle-upper class) in my town did not get their periods until 13 and did not start developing those “attributes” you like (boobs, hips etc) until years later.
So saying 12 is ok for under 21, you are effectively saying that its ok for most PRE-ADOLESCENTS to say yes or not to whether they are ready for sex. Yikes.
That is why the parents here are scared of your comments.
Myself included. My boobs did not even develop until I was 16.
So I am just saying, a lot of girls are not even physically developed until they are a certain age…besides being emotionally young (and this is from someone who was very mature for her age emotionally)…many of these super young girls (12-14) are still not even developed in ANY way as women…they are still kids.
I don’t want to fight or argue, I am just expressing the truth of most young teens.
And as for raising kids in your teens, most girls are not even ready to tell you their favorite band at 16 or what they want to be when they grow up–to be raising a kid with no real ideals of your own and missing your entire teens raising a kid sounds gd awful and terrifying for the child.
I have two younger sisters and countless female cousins. They are all intelligent and interesting. None of them could have raised a child at 16. And none of them could understand committment and deeper love at that age or giving up their growing years to raise a baby.
You are vastly OVERestimating the emotional maturity of teenagers.
The teen years are the years girls are discovering who they are and what they like. To take that away is just sad.
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KassyK, I agree with you. And it’s not so long ago that 21 was the “age of majority” for both men and women, even at a time when many people married much younger than they do today. I think 21 has been understood for a long time as the age when most people will have left adolescence of both the mind and body behind. Although even then that doesn’t guarantee maturity; it just means that the hormonal storms of adolescence have abated.
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I believe 12 is ok if you are under 21 because like it or not girls in their early teens are attracted to men in their late teens. Also, men in their late teens aren’t fully out of adolescence yet. Also, when I was 22 I was chased after a 13 year old girl, just to let you know. It always surprises me that women insist that they got their menarchy rather late. In the US, white girls enter menarchy on avergae at 11.5 year, and black girls even nine months earlier. Strnagely, all girls insist that they got their period at 13, 14 or 15. It’s probably a prole thing to get early menarchy, that’s the reason why so many girls are lying. But I agree that men over 21 shouldn’t look at girl under 14. I live close to two all girl schools, and I can assure you that all girls over 14 have nice boobs and asses (developed). problem is that women fall strongly in love during their teens and early twenties, these are a woman’s bonding years, when they are extremley fertile. It’s mcuh easier to get pregnant a woman at 15 than at 28. If you want to have a wife which truly will love you and bond to you, it’s best to look for a teen girl.
Finally, you say age of majority was 21. That’s true, but it refered to contractual capacity and age of consent is much more related to criminal capacity, and that was always around 12-14. In fact, in Bitain and the US 150 years ago age of consent was as low as ten. I think that’s too young and 14 is fine (the age when girls enter high school and are fully sexually developed). Men at 14 are still pretyy stupid, but women aren’t. They are ready to start dating a good older man and marry him as soon as they finish HS.
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Gannon:
Please reread my comment. and really read it, please.
Me and my friends are not “insisting” about when we got our periods? That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. I got it at 13, a month before my 14th birthday.
Maybe in your country, girls lie about their periods (again weirdest thing I have ever heard) and in your country all girls are fully developed at 14…
I literally did not get boobs or ass until 16. I had mosquito bites, it was HUMILIATING so please do not tell me “all” are developed at 14.
ALSO, another girl fact:
Getting your period is something girls are PROUD of…so if anything…they would lie to say they got it EARLY instead of later.
So please, do not fight me on FACTS about myself and those I know.
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Gannon–I am getting agitated and I like to stay gentle so I am not coming back to this thread so don’t worry about writing me back.
I see you have your feelings and that my openness does not change or affect that.
I have no interest in fighting or arguing with someone I don’t know on a board.
🙂
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Did you diet a lot Kassy K? Women can retard their periods if they eat to lttle or have exhausting exercise regimes. I’m not saying that 14 year old have necesarrily reached their full boobsizes, but in most cases their boobs don’t grow that much more unless they get pregant. Also, at around 14 or 15 most women have reached their adult heeghts and don’t get any taller. I’m also not saying that you are lying about your periods, but it’s stange that in a country where average age of menarchy is 11.5 and more and more girla are gettting their periods even befor ten all women state that they got their period late. I believe it has to do with the fact that late menarchy is associated with high class. Finally, if you dress and put the correct make up it’s no problem at all to make a girl of 14 or 15 look like 19. That’s why it’s not reasonable that a lot of US states don’t allow age mistakes on good faith as a reasonable defense
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By the way, I think you are a very nice and attractive woman, and I do greatly enjoy a conversation with you.
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Gannon–Ok before I go, nope with the dieting. I was a really skinny child, teen and adult. Before turning 27, I never counted a calorie. I was also not an athlete. I was a normal, healthy teenager.
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Gannon–And lastly, thank you for the compliment. That is very nice of you to say.
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My parents were in love my whole life and when my dad died of cancer when my mom was 53, she was devastated and never thought she could be with anyone again. 7 years later at 60, she met someone randomly in the same town who is 62 and they are so happy and cute together and I am so happy for her. To me, that’s what life is about. It seems that people living in the DC area are horrible and miserable (men and women alike). I think I’d slit my wrists if I had to be around people like you.
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I know it’s way to late to comment on this tread and get any response or have very many people read it (though there are people like me who when they find a blog they find really interesting and enlightening will go back and read through the archives, sometimes extensively).
I’ll just say here that I found this comment thread really worthwhile to read through. Lots of people really struggling to get at truth in this area, or their truth, and convince others, or often some combination of that and getting more clarity for themselves. Or trying things out.
Two comments in particular I though were really, really wise. Rina 94 and MBlowhard 106.
Rina you really.really.really get a key difference between men and women, and most unusual of all, you’re honest about it. Sometime I’d love to talk with you about open relationships, or rather about my thoughts on ways to do it and not do it (aka likely consequences of going one way or another). It’s not nearly as simple as “it never works long term” (the received wisdom even among the open minded) nor quite “for the rare people suited to it, it can work out great.
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Sometime I’d love to talk with you about open relationships, or rather about my thoughts on ways to do it and not do it (aka likely consequences of going one way or another). It’s not nearly as simple as “it never works long term” (the received wisdom even among the open minded) nor quite “for the rare people suited to it, it can work out great.
Open relationships are difficult because:
1) The woman who is in a long-term relationship is usually there because she is a relationship “type.” That is, she does not want to have sex with a man unless she has intense emotional and mental attachments to him. It is said that women give sex to get love, but relationship type women also need to love before they want sex. To fool around, she might get too attached to the other man, resulting in a mess.
2) The man who is in a long-term relationship is usually there because he is getting stable sex and other benefits including emotional caring and support. To get involved with a new woman, he must make that woman think he loves her, which means at the very least time investment. In other words, men give love to get sex. The other woman might get too attached, resulting in another messiness.
3) Both the man and the woman in the existing long-term relationship experience jealousy. One or both might even be turned on by the idea of the other partner having sex with a different partner, but that does not turn off the jealous instinct. It is usually the case that with a foundation of trust and stability, neither party wants to hurt or injure the other party severely. Therefore the open relationship might seem like a good idea in theory, but in practice it is often devastating.
My husband and I have discussed the possibility of doing things with other people. But the situations we find ourselves in are usually very complicated, and the fallout from emotional entanglements especially difficult to navigate. Even though we’re both pretty open-minded and can tolerate a lot from each other, the consequences really make me feel like it’s not worth all that for momentary pleasure.
Of course, in the heat of the moment, the world is a very different place. Human beings are predictably irrational creatures, after all.
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Hope 202:
I had in mind approaching this quite differently if rina responded, but I think maybe it’s best that I use your pattern:
“The woman who is in a long-term relationship is usually there because she is a relationship “type.” That is, she does not want to have sex with a man unless she has intense emotional and mental attachments to him. It is said that women give sex to get love, but relationship type women also need to love before they want sex.”
I know you are describing yourself here Hope but nearly all women get married in this country still (but that may soon change due to men’s response to feminism’s often net great effects on unmarried sex but terrible effects for them on marriage and divorce) or go into a LTR, just some types do sooner than others on average. So in other words there ARE a whole lot of girls who know they DO like sex even without love and commitment, though often they think not as much. That’s been their experience. Most (almost all) high testosterone girls, whether or not they let themselves act in ways that e.g. Roissy would call full up slutty fall into this category. But it’s also been the experience, maybe less so, of some or quite a few of the high estrogen type girls really looking for husbands if not necessarily immediately that Roissy says he’s most attracted to, that sex was great before love and in fact often tended to help create love – which will take us to your “mess” allusion by and by.
But ok, for now lets just talk about Hope types, commitment first girls. I also get that for you it’s because you’ve only had great sex when you’ve felt love, and you’ve at least implied that you’ve tried it the other way and that was bad sex.
Roissy would probably say well the only way you can have good sex with a beta is to be in love with him so if all your sex partners have been betas you don’t really know what you’re talking about, or what you say is true only in the restricted field of “sex with beta men”. Actually, having written that out I kindof agree with it. Mostly. My area of disagreement is that there is nothing like complete congruence between what women intuit is going to rock them in bed and what will. Lots of guys esp. smart ones ironically are bad at advertising and even negatively advertise (often due to feminist/nice guy social programming).
My larger point though is that once a commitment first girl has her love commitment really well secured, she often CAN have good or great sex with other men WHO ARE GOOD AT IT, she just doesn’t think so. Her not thinking so serves a VERY valuable purpose for her mate of course, esp. in pre birth control and DNA test times. It serves a valuable purpose now as well, unless some rules are followed.
But over to you.
Let me just say though that no completely open marriage is going to work LT for almost anyone. There have to be rules. Even then it’s only for some, but maybe more than many might think.
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One comment addressed to the post in chief that I’d like to make if my convo with Hope attracts anyone’s attention (due to WordPress’s fairly new promoting of most recent coments to a conspicuous place on their blogs) is that Ashley looks unmistakeably like a high testosterone slut in her drives, while Spitzer’s wife looks like a very pretty and classy but probably pretty low sex drive woman. She no doubt had a higher sex drive when younger, but I’d guess it was never really high – or only was when she first fell in love.
She doesn’t seem as extreme to me as Nicole Kidman, but in the ball park. One of the things the it seems to me that Roissy has pretty wrong is the importance of female hunger in female heat. Most or anyway a great many of us guys are wise to ice princesses. The ultimate male sexual experience will never hold a candle, not even close, to the ultimate female one (you girls all know that right?) but we get there by getting her there, or more accurately, the closest that particular bundle of female loveliness and heat has been there. Ain’t gonna happen with Nicole. Or anyway a bit further is going to be small beer. That’s what I intuit anyway. And she’s probably a lipstick lesbian anyway. (Anyone here wonder why so many think so?)
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But ok, for now lets just talk about Hope types, commitment first girls. I also get that for you it’s because you’ve only had great sex when you’ve felt love, and you’ve at least implied that you’ve tried it the other way and that was bad sex.
You are correct in your assessment that I’ve had both sex with men that I’ve loved and with men I didn’t love. But I was not really a commitment type when I was younger. In fact, I was extremely fickle, and I had sex with men without real commitment, or being a “girlfriend.”
Mostly, what I required from men was a lot of attention and for them to be “in love” with me, so I had sex with men who loved me, but whom I did not love. I didn’t break that many men’s hearts, but a few were unfortunate enough to have me carelessly trampling on their feelings out of youthful ignorance… I no longer have ignorance as an excuse.
At least one of the men I didn’t love was rather “alpha” according to Roissy’s definition — he was tall, cocky, manipulative, and able to command the attention of many attractive females. Towards the end he also dumped me for more beautiful girl. It was an awful relationship, sexually and otherwise.
My larger point though is that once a commitment first girl has her love commitment really well secured, she often CAN have good or great sex with other men WHO ARE GOOD AT IT, she just doesn’t think so. Her not thinking so serves a VERY valuable purpose for her mate of course, esp. in pre birth control and DNA test times. It serves a valuable purpose now as well, unless some rules are followed.
I do understand your point, and I have definitely had good sex with men who are good at it. It is not that I’m ignorant as to how pleasurable it can be — that initial high, tension and thrill of being physically close with a new lover. I don’t want to hurt the person I love in order to have that. I would feel too disgusted with myself and responsible, even if I’m not “cheating” as per an open agreement.
Tangentially, a lot of men claim to be good at sex but really aren’t. To weed out the good from the bad takes a bit of experimentation, and I’m just not that kind of risk-taker with sexually transmitted infections, nor do I like to get intimate with strangers whom I feel little for — even physically there just wouldn’t be much response. I guess I’m an old-fashioned romantic in that way.
So in other words there ARE a whole lot of girls who know they DO like sex even without love and commitment, though often they think not as much. That’s been their experience. Most (almost all) high testosterone girls, whether or not they let themselves act in ways that e.g. Roissy would call full up slutty fall into this category.
Yes, a lot of women who get married are such types. Incidentally I think I have rather high testosterone, since I have very oily skin and scalp, and I have a lot more problems with acne and more hair than my mother when she was younger. I take after my serially cheating, high testosterone father in many ways.
The keys to making an open arrangement work would be trust, respect, and lots of honest communication. Frankly, it’s a pain in the ass to do that much work for a bit of fun and pleasure. Most risk-taking women would simply cheat and throw caution to the wind as far as the consequences are concerned. Certainly that is what most risk-taking men are doing.
Granted, I’m probably not giving the idea enough credit. But my prudishness (culturally-induced? self-induced?) serves its purpose, too. I want to be a faithful wife and one day a mother. If I have kids, and they grow up, would I be able to look them in the eye and tell them about it? Even with my husband’s full knowledge and consent, and even if the topic never comes up, I’d probably still feel guilty. Fooling around while you have children seems even worse.
Of course, to play the devil’s advocate, homo sapiens have been slightly polygamous since the beginning. Many social conventions are unhealthy, and people have a great time out of breaking taboos anyway. So why not? Indeed, I don’t really think it’s that big of a deal if other people decide to do it. You don’t have to convince me that it can be done successfully with all parties happy with it.
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Hope 205 —
Sorry, lost track of this thread and didn’t know you’d responded.
Well there’s lots I could respond to here, but in addition to lots of dangers
and troubles you’re also expressing no great hunger, or belief that maybe you might uncover one. Part of that is probably still fairly new marriage/relationship and actually I agree that so long as no staleness is creeping into the marital sex then yeah why not keep on keeping on in just the same way.
Whatever you do though don’t cheat. Female cheating FAR more often than male cheating is likely to lead to deep emotional cheating which does tremendous damage to a marriage and you mate no matter what you do. Even if you don’t break up the marriage (and he doesn’t if he finds out) it does tremendous damage – as in you may never have good sex with him again because you never have those kinds of full on emotional/sexual attachment feelings for him again even if you do “still love him” in some way (which usually really means still believe he’s a good person to live with and spend those parts of your life with, which may or may not mean the reliability of the money part as well).
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Part of that is probably still fairly new marriage/relationship and actually I agree that so long as no staleness is creeping into the marital sex then yeah why not keep on keeping on in just the same way.
I’ve known him for almost 10 years (since I was 15), been in a long-term relationship with him for almost 8. Staleness is a synonym for comfort and feeling at home. It takes a different kind of appreciation, but I prefer it to the roller coaster ride these days.
Female cheating FAR more often than male cheating is likely to lead to deep emotional cheating which does tremendous damage to a marriage and you mate no matter what you do.
I’ve done deep emotional cheating before, and I agree it is very damaging. But we got through it. Maybe the saving grace is that our bodies, hearts and minds are very close. Sex with him after the fact actually became better than before, because we were able to be more brutally open and honest with each other.
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