Wow, this is the story that keeps on giving. A common refrain I heard a lot, mostly from women but some uptight men as well, was that Ashley the hot young whore was a victim of her circumstances. It was the fault of the patriarchy, or sex-obsessed men, or drugs, or divorce, or running away from home. She was never to blame for her choices. But now her life is being revealed for what it really was:
Ashley Alexandra Dupré, an alleged call girl known as “Kristen,” who helped bring down New York’s governor, writes of a past checkered with poverty and even homelessness.
It’s a tough image to reconcile with the wealthy surroundings of a childhood spent with her mother, older brother and stepfather, an oral surgeon.
The white brick home in an upscale development near the Jersey Shore, is bordered with manicured shrubs and a wide, curved driveway. Large brass letters spell “PEACE” above the polished, auburn wood door. A similar house next door, where one of Dupré’s close childhood friends still lives, is on the market for more than $1.5 million, according to its owner.
Yeah, sounds like “the street” destroyed her and caused her to turn to a life of whoring. So what pushed her over the edge?
She also mentioned being abused while growing up, saying it forced her to run away – a claim one family friend called ridiculous.
“She crashed up [her stepdad’s] Porsche and wanted another one, and he wouldn’t give it to her, so she left,” said the friend, who asked her name not be printed.
She should move to DC, she’d fit right in here with her well-developed entitlement attitude.
In the meantime, Spitzer’s 50 year old wife can’t believe her husband would bang a girl almost the same age as his daughter:
Silda Wall Spitzer was deeply shaken that her disgraced hubby repeatedly slept with a hooker only a few years older than their eldest daughter, a family friend told The Post.
“It was the age” of 22-year-old Jersey girl Ashley Alexandra Dupre that really got to Silda, the friend said.
This is evidence that even (especially?) the smartest women are in complete denial about men’s sexual desire. Or they are utterly ignorant of it. I blame this on our gender bender culture filling women’s heads with the wrong ideas about male-female psychological differences.
The truth about Ashley’s upbringing should embarrass the anti-prostitute crusaders who like to whip out the “every whore is a victim” sympathy card. The infantilizing of women by feminists was always a spurious debate tactic. Women like Ashley know exactly what they are doing. They are hot, young, entitled and slutty so getting paid huge sums of money for banging rich middle-aged guys doesn’t seem like such a bad deal to them. If I had a hot daughter I would impart my wisdom and tell her to make a killing as a stripper for a few years, invest her money, and then take it easy husband-shopping and starting a business selling handcrafted jewelry.
Prostitution should be legalized so I don’t have to waste time and money flying to Nevada when I want an acceptable piece of ass in my old age. Legal prostitution would also reduce the incidence of rape.
Wave after wave of Saudi Arabian men using trafficked Russian or Phillipino women throughout the middle east is a sad indicator of what happens when you combine male sexual desire with religious prudery and pseudo-feminist reasoning.
There’s an editorial in the post yesterday saying the same thing, that Dupre is just a spoiled girl who wanted to buy fancy stuff and didn’t want to work for it.
Hard to imagine that in wartime we’re worried about 22 year olds being exploited for thousands of dollars an hour.
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i am envisioning something like a food court, except with mini-brothels; you gotcher place for asians, another place for blondes, even a place for fatties (“$2 Tuesdays!”).
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Spitzer should have used his status to get it for free. Due to a looming economic recession, Canadian government members have decided to reduce their prostitution expenditures, at least until the end of the fiscal year.
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Now, Roissy, I think I detect an inconsistency here. Didn’t you once say in a post on your possible children that you would regard “stripping and whoring” as grounds for permanent alienation from the paternal household? Or something like that. Perhaps it was only grounds for being disinherited, which I suppose you could explain by saying that a stripper makes enough money not to need yours…
I think you misconstrue the nature of the prostitute-as-victim argument. Some feminists have indeed argued that prostitutes are often poor and abused (which is true, btw, and perhaps for the majority), but the heart of their argument is that prostitution itself is a form of abuse, so that all prostitutes are victims by definition. But anyway, it’s not ALL feminists who say this; never has been. Some have even been activists on behalf of legalizing prostitution.
p.s. I’ve know several prostitutes rather well – including two men. And they were all drug addicts, too, without exception. They “turned tricks” to finance their habits.
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And, in fact, some feminists, myself included, know that many hookers, especially at the high end of the business, actively choose The Life because of the money to be made, or for their own personal reasons. Trouble is, our culture, which is still in sexual kindergarten, can’t admit that any woman anywhere might actually enjoy it–this would blow open the entire lie, that women don’t want or enjoy sex, upon which much of our social instititutions are based. So every hooker is abused, drug addicted, and exploited, with no distinction being made between the ones that really are, like kids trafficked from poor countries, and the likes of Ms. Ashley Dupre.
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marcys makes a strong point — sexual kindergarten is a great way to describe it.
alias, your experience isn’t very helpful — of course the ho’s you know are drug addicts.
1. any job that gives money quickly to young people is going to attract people with poor impulse control
2. it’s illegal, so the people involved in it now are going to be desperate.
in almost all of the world hooking is common. it’s not a popular glam thing, but neither are most jobs.
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Disagree clio. I will grant you that trafficked women..i.e. those forced into prostitution are victims. They are kidnapped and abused in various ways and forced to be prostitutes against their will. Certainly they are exploited in this way. This doesn’t apply to a little slut like “Kristen” and Im sure many similar young hot girls. Its a job. Its an economic transaction not unlike illicit drugs. Just as there is nearly infinite demand for illegal drugs…mens sexual desire leads to a nearly infinite demand for young hot ass. How else can you charge $1000 per hour. There is a lot of money to be made. Kristen’s market value on the ass market is such that she can pick and choose among a huge pool of customers willing to pay huge sums. Its not like she is being leched on by pot bellied losers who cant get laid without paying for it. Her customers are ambitious career oriented alphas males without the time nor the patience to fuck around on the dating scene to fulfill the natural desire for sex and companionship. These are the kind of ballers many women would want to be with anyway….Dupre is not a dumb girl. She can be treated like a princess, showered in expensive gifts, wined and dined, taken on luxurious weekend vacations and get plowed by an alpha. Most women would do this for free…she GETS PAID enormous amounts of money for it. Victim my ass. She is using them as much as they are using her. I wish hot, career women would shower me in beer, feed me steak and then take me for a weekend getaway somewhere nice then pay me $1000 an hour to bang them. I do it for minimum wage. Unfortunately, women dont have the same insatiable need to fuck something young and hot to create the economic circumstance that would allow for that.
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>>Legal prostitution would also reduce the incidence of rape.
Curious about this thesis. Do you mean that the legalization of prostitution would encourage more prostitutes to come forward about rapes that happen on (or off, I guess) the job? More inclination on the part of the judiciary/public to believe and defend them?
Or something else?
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Somewhere else (at Half Sigma?) Agnostic had sketched a plausible personality profile of a Kristen.
They tend to be of average or above-average intelligence, possess a masculine personality (adventurous, risk-taking, impatient, easliy bored), and laziness.
The laziness is what keeps them from applying their dynamic personality toward college and a career, high-end whoring paying better faster, being much easier, and less boring.
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Roissy, check my latest post.
The dirty secret of prostitution is that it’s been the one industry where women have always held the upper hand. That’s why it pisses off feminists so much.
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@communicatrix
It always surprises me, just like Roissy said, how clueless US women are about men’s sexual desires.
Prostitution reduces rape because it allows men to easily satisfy their sexual appetite. If a man gets horny, he can simply go to a prostitute. But if prostitution is outlawed, and this man isn’t a ladiesman, it’s possible that he will simply force a young sweet thing to satisfy his incontrollable urges.
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one industry where women have always held the upper hand.
I wonder, though, how pimps have so much power over women. I think it’s because of the illegality aspect, that the pimps are needed to get around the legal system and pay off the cops, politicians, etc.
Maybe it’s not just feminists that oppose legalization. Some politicians and pimps will lose out too.
Dupre is not a dumb girl.
Eh, she didn’t know that Spitzer was Spitzer until after a few visits. Me thinks this is just a spoiled girl who had everything handed to her in life because of her looks or privileged background.
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Chuck and che che, you can’t really disagree with me because – for once – I wasn’t trying to construct an argument. I was making a comment based on some observations I’ve made about the feminist position on prostitution, and I threw in my prostitute acquaintances because I wanted to top off my post.
But if you want an argument, here’s one: although a brief internet search has not turned up any reliable-looking studies, I think it makes sense to assume that there are going to be more street prostitutes than “high class” call girls in the life, just like there are going to be more Sears catalogue models than Vogue models in the modelling world.
I know I have no evidence to offer, but as I said, I think my assumption that most prostitutes are street girls is more likely than not, given the nature of the business world.
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I think it’s because of the illegality aspect, that the pimps are needed to get around the legal system and pay off the cops, politicians, etc.
The pimps are also needed to protect the girls from men who don’t pay and think that beating up prostitutes is fun.
Prostitution reduces rape because it allows men to easily satisfy their sexual appetite. If a man gets horny, he can simply go to a prostitute. But if prostitution is outlawed, and this man isn’t a ladiesman, it’s possible that he will simply force a young sweet thing to satisfy his incontrollable urges.
I agree that it’s a way to satisfy sexual urges when one is desperate, but please explain why David Alexander isn’t a rapist given a lack of sex?
Eh, she didn’t know that Spitzer was Spitzer until after a few visits. Me thinks this is just a spoiled girl who had everything handed to her in life because of her looks or privileged background.
I wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t watch the news or read newspapers or news websites, thus limiting any exposure to the knowledge of his position. Besides, I don’t think he would announce and brag about being the governor for obvious reasons.
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but please explain why David Alexander isn’t a rapist given a lack of sex?
Porn, social suppression of rape, empathy, willpower.
It means you’re a good guy.
There’s an editorial in the post yesterday saying the same thing, that Dupre is just a spoiled girl who wanted to buy fancy stuff and didn’t want to work for it.
I read some of those editorials, and honestly she is someone to be pitied. I went to a private school with a lot of spoiled girls like her, and though at the time they seemed like they had so much, they are morally and emotionally bankrupt.
Society at large does not celebrate this behavior, so I’m curious why some here would.
I think my assumption that most prostitutes are street girls is more likely than not, given the nature of the business world.
That’s self-evident. It’s like saying there are more poor and average people in the world than there are rich people. No one would disagree. However, some people like to point out the conditions of the rich (high class call girls) as exemplifying the conditions of everybody else. There’s a logical fallacy if I ever saw one.
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Same in Argentina. The high end whores will charge around 500 US for a session, and they usually have two sessions per day. Also, most of them come form middle and high middleclass backgrounds. But most whores will charge 15 US for a blowjob and are rather disgusting.
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“This is evidence that even (especially?) the smartest women are in complete denial about men’s sexual desire. Or they are utterly ignorant of it. I blame this on our gender bender culture filling women’s heads with the wrong ideas about male-female psychological differences.”
Well said, Roissy.
The thing that sets American culture apart from almost all other cultures is that here, we’re taught that there’s no difference between the sexes, or that any such differences are to be minimized and ignored, both by individuals and by society and its laws.
Furthermore, Americans are mass-indoctrinated with the idea that to believe otherwise is to be quaintly and anachronistically sexist, and to hold views that are so far out of the mainstream as to be shameful at best, and borderline perverted at worst.
Yet this is, sadly, the foundation upon which notions of American “feminism” are built — i.e., “the personal is the political”.
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11 Gannon
“Prostitution reduces rape because it allows men to easily satisfy their sexual appetite. ”
If not for “the church” (if I might be allowed to use such blatantly unqualified terminology) prostitution would neither exist or even need to exist. If not for those making sex “dirty” what would be the need of prostitution? Prostitution absolutely DEPEND on suppression of sexuality and the Church absolutely DEPEND on “SIN”. It’s a perfect “one hand washes the other” arrangement.
Only a sick society “needs” prostitution and since we have a sexually ill society in general we should legalize prostitution. Keep the pervs off the street and under control. As Roissy stated, when he becomes a dirty old man he’ll need options.
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Oh, I forgot, the feminists are also to blame.
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I can’t believe I agree with you.
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Joe T ,if you think American men have it ruff(you don’t) you should look at how Swedish men are raised.
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Joe T ,if you think American men have it ruff(you don’t) you should look at how Swedish men are raised.
But at least Swedish chicks stay in shape. Also, there isn’t competition from misogynistic minorities (blacks, hispanics, arabs) that feminized white guys face in the US (esp in urban areas).
The thing that sets American culture apart from almost all other cultures is that here, we’re taught that there’s no difference between the sexes, or that any such differences are to be minimized and ignored, both by individuals and by society and its laws.
Hence the lynching of Larry Summers.
I went to a private school with a lot of spoiled girls like her, and though at the time they seemed like they had so much, they are morally and emotionally bankrupt.
But this is a FAR cry from the oft-repeated story of the prostitute being abused in childhood. Here we simply have a case of consumerism, laziness, and a quality rack.
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But this is a FAR cry from the oft-repeated story of the prostitute being abused in childhood. Here we simply have a case of consumerism, laziness, and a quality rack.
Many people are “abused” in childhood, just to different degrees. In the old days corporal punishment is the norm, and I got some of that myself (maybe why I’m not as much of a wild child as some American kids). I still had a pretty cake childhood all things considered, but some have told me that I was abused. The way I perceive my past has more to do with what I do and how I react to it than how others perceive it.
A person’s inherited biology, upbringing and environmental circumstances cumulate in the that person’s overall character. I’m not going to pretend I know for sure if these people are victims or see themselves as victims (which is why I never didn’t call her or any other prostitute “victims” in my previous posts).
Regardless, she’s certainly a messed up individual. I also knew sons of rich parents that got into drug dealing, and they had no monetary reason to do it because they weren’t lacking any material goods. I often wondered why they did it. Parental neglect? Status whoring? Inflated egos? The other thing is of course, when these white brats get in trouble with the law, they always get out easily.
Being idiotic, immature, immoral or choosing the wrong path do not make a person a victim. If that’s the case, you can say rapists and murderers are victims, too, just of biology or circumstance. Recognizing that some people are fucked up doesn’t require branding them a victim (sociopaths / psychopaths are fucked up individuals, too). Pitying someone doesn’t make that person a victim either (pitying a pedophile who can’t help himself, for example). I would not want to be among their ranks, and I certainly don’t think they have it better.
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I’ve had dealings with quite a few prostitutes in my line of work–I’ve not used their services, lets be clear about that–and most of them are not “victims”. Generally they fall into two groups:
One group comes from emotionally troubled backgrounds, both rich and poor and have entered prostitution due to some type of pressure; it was a poor or coerced choice in response to a difficult situation. Most of these girls are the run of the mill streetwalkers though some of them are “high class”.
The other group comes from a normal happy family who enter prostitution freely. They choose it because it is an easy way to make lots of money. These girls usually have had a good education are well mannered and I imagine are the ones that make up the bulk of the “high class” hooker market.
Group one keeps to prostitution to maintain a drug habit, stopping it once the habit is kicked. Group two keeps to prostitution to maintain a lifestyle. None of the two groups wants to work in McDonalds to support their lifestyle. If there is choice, there is no victimhood.
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But at least Swedish chicks stay in shape. Also, there isn’t competition from misogynistic minorities (blacks, Hispanics, Arabs) that feminized white guys face in the US (esp in urban areas).
Well there are lot of blacks and Arabs in Sweden. I think they make up about ten percent. Most are recent immigrants or first generation Swedes.
Can you explain who or what feminized white are?
Is it a look or personality?
I see a lot of white men dating non white women. Anytime you bring some different around people(some) are going to be curious and want to sample it.
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Candy Cane, that statement of yours is simply ignorant – unless when you say “church” you meant “all religions”, which would be a rather odd use of the term.
There is no religion which does not set boundaries on sexual behaviour, and these are nearly always especially severe for women. The pagan religions of Greece and ancient Persia were nearly as strict as contemporary Islam in expecting married women to remain behind closed doors. Rome’s women were a little freer but its divorce laws were very much against women, and men had absolute power of life and death over their children when first born. Women in tribal societies usually had (and have) a little more sexual freedom, but not all that much, and pay for it by not being able to rely on their men for much support. And there’s still prostitution in many if not all such tribal societies, once the community gets beyond a certain size.
The reason for this isn’t difficult to understand, if you give it a little thought. Men have always wanted to be certain that the children born to their wives are really theirs. A woman who is sexually free before marriage was thought to be less likely to remain faithful after it. Plus, women were more vulnerable than men to sexually transmitted diseases which could destroy their fertility, and to abduction by wifeless men or by maurauders from tribal groups in which women were scarce.
But since men in such societies also found it necessary to seek sexual release, they tolerated prostitution and kept it legal. Orphaned girls and widows often needed the money to live, but much prostitution was performed by slaves captured from other groups regarded as inferior to the host society’s people. Prostitution was even legal, though subject to various restrictions, in many communities throughout the middle ages.
You need to do a little serious reading in this area.
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The biggest problem with this type of work and lifestyle is that men have to much control(pimps).
We can’t be over her 1000 dollar an hour fee, but how much was her agency riping her for. I say between 25-50 percent.
Imgine, you do all of the work and you have to pay some else half.
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And there’s still prostitution in many if not all such tribal societies, once the community gets beyond a certain size
This is very true.
Plus, women were more vulnerable than men to sexually transmitted diseases which could destroy their fertility.
I doubt if 1000+ years ago people were aware of this fact so it probably didn’t factor in much.
Also and STD and an infection** can happen between to previously untouched people.
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People weren’t aware of the disease element, Chic Noir? Perhaps, though some of them make themselves rather obvious. But even 1000+ years ago, people could observe that young virgins who had reached puberty got pregnant easily, while more experienced women, even when still young, had a more difficult time. I suspect this was one of those facts that people observed without understanding it, and it had its influence on social organization.
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good point alias
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alias clio-
It left a unconscious imprint on women that still exists. When you hear women vent about players and how meaningless sex can’t be satisfying to them they will mention disease risk almost every time. Personally I think they’re being sincere and empathic, putting themselves in the place of the player and really feeling a revulsion to (indiscriminate) promiscuity. Women feel this revulsion as a protection from disease.
Again, women are much more picky and lots of the things they’re picky about are correlated with good health (which both improves the genes they get from the man and reduces their risk).
Guys will not talk this way nearly as often.
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Grrr! I’m so fed up with this “feminist position on prostitution.” Where have you all been for the past two decades? There IS no monolithic feminist position on prostitution; in fact, it’s been fought over by feminists on both sides of the issue. There is a sizable contingent of “pro-sex’ feminists who have actually worked WITH prostitutes for legalization (and who also are pro-pornography). Many books have been written, for instance, A Vindication of the Rights of Whores, on this issue. It really pisses me off, as a die-hard feminist, to see these assumptions endlessly repeated.
Chuck, you are right–the economic circumstances don’t exist for male prostitution. On my blog I posted awhile ago about Heidi Fleiss’s plans to open a male brothel in Nevada (yet to be realized) and I still get comments from men saying it will never fly because women don’t “have” to pay for sex. But that isn’t the reason, IMO; the reason is we can’t *afford* to pay for sex (and also we’ve been conditioned not to do so). I personally find the notion of sex for my pleasure entirely, with no strings or obligations, quite appealing.
I cannot, alas, take credit for the phrase “sexual kindergarten”–it comes from Annie Sprinkle (another fine feminist, porn star and one-time proud prostitute).
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When you hear women vent about players and how meaningless sex can’t be satisfying to them they will mention disease risk almost every time
I know I do.
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Marcys, if the guy looks good enough you would be surprised what many women are willing to pay.
6 feet
thick healthy hair
flat stomach(6 pack prefered)
Heidi’s place didn’t open because she could not get permits.
It just depends on the woman. Not every man is willing to pay for a woman either(woman of the night). Although they usually pay through the movies,dinner, roses etc…
Many women in Japan have no problem paying. Have you read the reports of Britsh women going to Kenya for fun*.
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26 Alias Clio
I can see that you’ve done a lot of very impressive research on the subject. If I were competing in a debate contest rather than posting my opinion anonymously on a blog site, I may also put out the effort. My priorities are a bit different. I state my opinion and am not really looking to get into a long winded debate over it. If someone agrees, Hallejuia; I’m as pleased as a pig in shit. If they do not it is their loss because I truly don’t care that much.
If you want to go on and on siting example after example and quoting very intellectual sources, that is your prerogative. I apologize if I offended you….sort of. My opinion, though stated in a rather basic and uneducated way is unchanged.
I’m here for the entertainment value and to fry roissy’s ass occasionally. 🙂 Perhaps you’ve never met anyone with such simple needs as I.
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Candy Cane, your opinion is BS. Some issues are not matters of opinion but matters of fact. You can think that “the Church” is a harmful influence; that’s a matter of opinion. You can’t say that it either invented the notion of sexual sin or had anything to do with the creation of prostitution: those are questions of fact. If you persist in believing such things in the face of facts, your opinion ceases to be rooted in ignorance and becomes wilful stupidity, which is much more harmful than ignorance – to you, I mean.
I often like your posts, CC. But I doubt very much that you can “fry Roissy’s ass” by such means as you’ve chosen.
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i am envisioning something like a food court, except with mini-brothels; you gotcher place for asians, another place for blondes, even a place for fatties (”$2 Tuesdays!”).
How about one place for naturally ungroomed women?
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Just as there is nearly infinite demand for illegal drugs…mens sexual desire leads to a nearly infinite demand for young hot ass.
Yes, but most men keep these desires in check, limiting their sexual activity to their wives/girlfriends. Few of them have ever visited a hooker, and if they have it probably was as part of a frat party or something along that line. Only a very small minority of men are so enthralled to the sexual urge that they become Spitzer-esque serial tricks.
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Don’t fall into the “credentialed means smart” trap, Roissy. She’s well-credentialed. That totally does not mean that she is necessarily smart. In fact, when Ivy League schools are concerned, it usually means they are especially retarded about human nature because they are constantly exposed to egghead liberal profs filling their head with progressive, utopian borderline socialist propaganda all the time. Add to the fact that her credentials are law school, where you really learn nothing of practical use except to advocate for things regardless of whether they are true or not or whether you believe them (in fact, you’re trained not to care whether a premise is true or not, just how plausible you can make it sound) and I’d argue she’s probably not that smart at all. WHen someone’s biggest intellectual achievement is law school, my default assumption is one of stupidity and cluelessness.
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36 Alias Clio
“your opinion ceases to be rooted in ignorance and becomes wilful stupidity, which is much more harmful than ignorance – to you, I mean.
I often like your posts, CC. But I doubt very much that you can “fry Roissy’s ass” by such means as you’ve chosen.”
All I’m really saying is I don’t want to put out the big effort to try to “prove” a point. I don’t have the time or desire. I believe that sexual suppression (of which “the church” is largely responsible. Can we agree on that? No. Oh well!) begets prostitution and unnatural attitudes toward sex.
One only needs to look at primitive/nature oriented tribal cultures to see that in most of them (uh oh, there may be an exception lurking somewhere! Oh well!) there is no incest, rape, unwanted children, or God knows: PROSTITUTION!!! The very idea is insane and we have an insane society but perhaps you disagree. Great! I’m not going to spend volumes of time trying to cite sources and studies, quote documents, ad nauseam. O.K.? You guys take your opinions to be facts that need to be proven right somehow. It’s futile anyway. Did my further explanation change your mind one iotia?
As far as frying roissy’s ass, it’s a purely subjective excercise! I think only dizzy8 can relate!
P.S. I don’t feel at all “harmed” by my viewpoints. Perhaps there is something seriously wrong with me. LOL 😀
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WHen someone’s biggest intellectual achievement is law school, my default assumption is one of stupidity and cluelessness.
If they got into a good law school, that means they’re smart about how to make money; pays better than anything other than business, and not everyone has the schmooze to be a businessman.
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[…] The View represents the latest in feminist thinking: I got involved in a blog discussion about prostitution, where commenters repeatedly cite “the feminist position.” As I commented, there is no […]
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I don’t know how comment #42 got here…I just wrote a post on my blog, and I put up a link to this discussion; is that how?
Anyway, if anyone is interested, go read it. I doubt anyone is, since not a single person responded to my comment on feminism–unless Clio’s comments are directed towards me. If they are, let me say I haven’t done “research” and I too am just stating my opinions. If I happen to have a lot of info on the issue, it’s because I’ve been alive a lot longer than you, during which I’ve been actively involved in the Women’s Movement, ie, feminism.
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No, no marcys, my comments weren’t directed towards you at all, but to Candy Cane; that is, if you mean the one about how people should read a book on a subject before holding forth on it.
I did make a comment earlier about feminism, but it was before your first one, and I don’t think you would find much to quarrel with in it.
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Candy Cane, did you pay any attention to what I wrote, or did you just say, “oh, she disagrees with me; won’t read any further”?
Primitive tribal cultures are certainly less likely to have prostitutes than urban ones, but the moment they begin to be complex enough to build villages, up pops prostitution. Ancient Babylon, Athens, Rome, Ur, Jerusalem – THEY ALL HAD PROSTITUTES. AND THEY HAD NO “CHURCH” (they did have their own pre-Christian, pagan religions). That is NOT an opinion. That is a FACT.
If you didn’t change your mind even a little because of my post, it’s because you didn’t really read it. Or else you cannot follow a series of points through to a conclusion – but since you don’t strike me as a stupid woman I find that hard to believe.
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45 alias
I think I don’t really have the time to be here in the first place. It takes too much time to analyze the posts and follow them the way some of you do. Don’t know where you find the time, it’s just different priorities I guess.
You said: “Primitive tribal cultures are certainly less likely to have prostitutes…”
Here is the whole point to my way of living, thinking, being…bear with me. In my mind it is far more valuable to look at cultures that have almost zero incest, unwanted children, abortion, prostitution and LEARN something from THEM instead of constantly harping about what is so obviously fucked up in our society. If you think prostitution is within the normal requirements of a healthy society then let’s by all means celebrate and support prostitution in all it’s positive glory.
If you think it’s just a little perverse and neurotic to have prostitution in the first place, then by all means oppose it, or take the realistic approach like I do and though I oppose it as an indication of an ill society, I support the legalization of it, because it may help protect some segment of the population.
Is that more clear? So you deny that the church, religion, dogma, etc. has anything to do with prostitution? Great. Good for you. I disagree.
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Alias Clio: Do you also believe that religion has nothing to do with pornography? Prostitution and pornography both fall into the sex trades and in my mind anyway are both symptoms of the same illness.
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candy/sara – it’s clear you were steeped your whole life in leftwing feminist groupthink about the church’s role in prostitution so you stubbornly cling to your falsified opinion as if opinion were elevated to the sacrosanct rank of fact. this is a common scourge of modern society, especially among women whose self-esteems are so blown up they need their opinions to have cosmic significance.
fact: you have been proven wrong.
fact: your precious little OPINION does nothing to change this.
fact: you look stupid sticking by your discredited opinion.
opinion: you may be stupid.
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So you deny that the church, religion, dogma, etc. has anything to do with prostitution? Great. Good for you. I disagree.
shifting the goalposts, eh?
scratch that.
fact: you are stupid.
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Sure roissy. Whatever you say.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart
“In 1986, Swaggart exposed fellow Assemblies of God minister Marvin Gorman, who was having an affair with one of his parishioners. The following year, Swaggart exposed televangelist Jim Bakker’s sexual indiscretions and appeared on the Larry King Show, stating that Bakker was a “cancer in the body of Christ.” As a retaliatory move, Marvin Gorman hired a private-detective to follow Swaggart. The detective found Swaggart in a Louisiana motel on Airline Highway with a prostitute, Debra Murphree, and took pictures of the tryst.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell
“After the death of Falwell, Larry Flynt released a comment regarding his friendship over the years with Falwell.
“My mother always told me that no matter how much you dislike a person, when you meet them face to face you will find characteristics about them that you like. Jerry Falwell was a perfect example of that. I hated everything he stood for, but after meeting him in person, years after the trial, Jerry Falwell and I became good friends. He would visit me in California and we would debate together on college campuses. I always appreciated his sincerity even though I knew what he was selling and he knew what I was selling.” – Larry Flynt “
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^This is one of my very favorite parts.:
“I always appreciated his sincerity even though I knew what he was selling and he knew what I was selling.” – Larry Flynt “
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49 roissy
I said “So you deny that the church, religion, dogma, etc. has anything to do with prostitution? Great. Good for you. I disagree.”
And your retort is:
“shifting the goalposts, eh?”
WTF? My entire premise from the beginning was that there was a correlation between prostitution and the church! O.K. I must be incredibly stupid. It’s the only possible explanation.
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Going back to the original news article, posted lo so many comments ago…
Ashley comes from an upper-class background. That doesn’t mean she’s somehow immune from lousy parents, horrific abuse, or a truly screwed up childhood.
And while it’s lovely that a “family friend” claims Miss Ashley started hooking because she bashed up Daddy’s Porsche, it’s important to note that it’s an unverified, anonymous source. If that “family friend” was speaking the unvarnished truth, he or she would have had the balls to attach their name. I mean, any of y’all could anonymously tell the Washington Post that I trade blow jobs for Cracker Jacks, that doesn’t make it true.
It’s entirely possible that Ashley’s a spoiled pretty princess who wanted to buy hair ribbons and ponies with her hooker commissions. But it’s a bit of stretch to outright ASSUME that’s who she is.
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Statement 1: If not for “the church” (if I might be allowed to use such blatantly unqualified terminology) prostitution would neither exist or even need to exist. If not for those making sex “dirty” what would be the need of prostitution? Prostitution absolutely DEPEND on suppression of sexuality and the Church absolutely DEPEND on “SIN”. It’s a perfect “one hand washes the other” arrangement.
Statement 2: So you deny that the church, religion, dogma, etc. has anything to do with prostitution? Great. Good for you. I disagree.
Candy, girl, I think part of the problem here, aside from ignorance, is that you use words without paying any attention to their ordinary definitions.
The phrase “the Church” usually refers to the Christian Church, and more specifically to the Catholic Church. The word “dogma” usually refers to the teachings of the Catholic Church. The word “religion”, on the other hand, is an umbrella term referring to all religious faiths, from Greco-Roman paganism to African pantheism to Satanism and any others you can think of. You began by blaming the existence of prostitution and the sense of sin on “the church” and then in your most recent statement you blamed it on “the church, religion, dogma”. That’s why Roissy accused you of “shifting the goalposts”.
As I said before, strict sexual codes have existed in every kind of society practising every kind of religion, from paganism to Christianity.
Prostitution has existed in all kinds of society once they move beyond the simplest form of social organization, and that includes even tribal societies. The Yoruba people in Nigeria have a strong sense of tribal affiliation and many still live in tribal villages – and they do have prostitution. Tribespeople are not necessarily wandering nomades, or hunter-gatherer groups – but it’s true that those kinds of tribespeople don’t usually have what we would recognise as prostitution, so you are right about that.
And some of the other social ills you mention, including rape and incest, most certainly do exist even in the simple tribal villages you admire: I have read articles about their existence even among the Yanomamo people of the Amazon basin, and even when they were virtually untouched by modern life.
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Yes, Shannon, I think you’re right about that. What if it’s some childhood rival who still resents her for being pretty, or a rejected suitor who wants to humiliate her?
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55
My original statement:
“If not for “the church” (IF I MIGHT BE ALLOWED TO USE SUCH BLATANTLY UNQUALIFIED TERMINOLOGY)…”
With this group the answer to that is apparently a big resounding HELL NO. I get it! I just don’t want to work that hard to express myself. You guys are so anal retentive that you can’t see the forest for trees. You want to nit pick everything to death even though you probably “knew” in general what I was trying to say. It’s the spirit of what I was saying, not the letter!
“If NOT FOR THOSE MAKING SEX “DIRTY” what would be the need of prostitution?”
This original statement includes many others besides “church” doesn’t it? Try to keep up! LOL
Sure, sure, sure…you’re going to always, always, always find exceptions. You guys are a tough fucking crowd and you think I’M tough. 🙂
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Let’s face it, most of you big time debaters here a helluva lot more hell bent on being right than creating a better world, as far as I can see. There was truth in my statement about sexual repression being a catalyst to prostitution and all kind of sexual perversions. There is truth in that the “church” has been a big contributor of that. Yes, yes, yes, we all know that prostitution is the “worlds oldest profession” and the priesthood is also very ancient. You guys jumped on my statement:
“If not for “the church” (if I might be allowed to use such blatantly unqualified terminology) prostitution would neither exist or even need to exist.”
like a school of piranha! I knew you would, which is why I qualified it with sexually repressive attitudes in general and that is is still my opinion, whether you want to spend all day finding exceptions to that or not is your business.
Do I need to prove exactly the moment when prostitution came into existence? What is the fucking point of analyzing everything to death if nothing good comes of it? If no new revelation or enlightened viewpoint, or hope for the future? Like I’ve said and no one here even wants to get it….let us look at where people are happy and healthy in their sexuality and learn from them about how to be happier ourselves. Is that such a stupid fucking motivation?
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“What is the fucking point of analyzing everything to death if nothing good comes of it?”
Well, Roissy’s site traffic goes up, I get a solid laugh or two, and alias clio gets the dubious honor of being the brains of this operation. Not exactly world peace, but all told a net gain for humanity.
(Not that Roissy’s a net gain for humanity, he would quite possibly take that as an insult. I was referring specifically to the comments section.)
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Please, by all means correct me if i”m wrong, but I guess the big disagreement then is that alias clio and roissy think prostitution would exist even in a non-sexually repressive society? Well, it certainly depends on what we think “sexually repressive” means. It depends on what we think “non-sexually suppressive” is. It depends on what we think healthy sexuality is. Personally I would not want my own daughter being a prostitute and I don’t really care how old the profession is or how necessary it is, or who uses it under what circumstances or any of that bullshit.
Bottom line, I for one, think it’s a perversion of sexual energy. Disagree if you want with that. It doesn’t mean I condemn all prostitutes or who goes to them, but I think the whole arrangement is icky and distasteful and make no apologies for my opinion. It is O.K. to have one, isn’t it?
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http://www.phys.uni-sofia.bg/~viktor/wisdom/osho/prostitiution.html
Wipe your ass on this, roissy!
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Candy, it’s very odd to just throw words and statements around on the page with no particular attention to what they mean – or what you mean when you set them down – and then complain that people don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
You complain that you don’t want to work too hard at your posts. Then how can you expect your reader to work so hard to parse out your meaning or intentions from the random verbiage that you toss out?
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clio, I think the point is that if we take the time to figure out what candy says, it’s because we have no lives. But if we don’t understand her, it’s because we’re dumb. So, are we dorks or idiots?
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right again, shannon. personally, i think i’m probably both a dork and an idiot. it’s silly to try to argue rational points on a site dedicated to outrage and provocation. in a funny way (sometimes), of course.
also i fear the no punctuation habit could be catching. a bad sign.
since it’s – well – holy week (last week of easter), i shall make myself scarce until a week tuesday. candy can say what she likes unmolested. or not by me at any rate.
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“If NOT FOR THOSE MAKING SEX “DIRTY” what would be the need of prostitution?”
Candy, I get the above statement. What you are saying is if women could give it away without the gulit trip, men would not have to pay. I agree with you to an extent, but there are plenty of women who even without the chruch, would not be eager to spread the love because they don’t have that type of s.ex drive.
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Wrong. According to Forbes survey of professions, anesthesiologists are highest paid professionals, followed by surgeons, followed by ob/gyns, followed by orthodontists, followed by dental surgeons, followed by general internists, followed by prosthodontists, followed by psychiatrists, followed by family doctors, THEN CEOs, then come all other physicians and surgeons, then pediatricians, then general dentists, then airline pilots and flight engineers, then podiatrists, and after all that, only THEN do you hit lawyers. Lawyers fall around 17th on the list. But if you notice something about the things that are ranked higher….they are really, really, REALLY fucking HARD. You can’t fuck around in liberal arts and communications classes for four years and just decide out of desperartion in your senior year to go into them. They tend to require hard, tangible skills and not soft, nebulous skills. Law is all about making the most money with the least amount of hard skills. If you are good at rote memorization and essays, you’re good to go. Now the Forbes list I provided is based on gross salaries. When you take into account hours worked per week along with the cost of living in the cities where they make the big money, lawyers drop even lower on the highly paid list. If you break down their pay by hour you’d be surprised how far down the list lawyers fall.
And you have to shmooze just as much if not more to be a lawyer than you do to be a businessman. Lawyers tend to choose law over business not to avoid the shmoozing but that pesky math.
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Chic Noir, is that Kenya Moore in your avatar?
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Candy,
Sexual repression is not a catalyst for prostitution, prostitution has existed in cultures where Christianity wasn’t even heard of’ Japan, China, Africa, Islamic countries etc.
Prostitution exists in cultures where rape is effectively punished. If men could walk up to a girl and effectively get free sex from her, whether she liked it or not, why pay? Except in cases of coercion, women have control over whom they will have sex with. Women choose the conditions under which they will have sex. These conditions may not be ideal but there is no coercion.
Some do it for love and others do it for money, but the point is that it is free market transaction. Prostitution in society is encouraged when:
1) Rape is punished: Christianity has always said it is bad.
2) Prostitution is socially accepted: Can’t blame that one on the Christians.
3) Prostitution is financially or socially rewarded: Can’t blame them for that one.
4) There is a demand for the services of prostitution: Christianity has fought against this one unsuccessfully.
Clear your head of all that feminist and New Age crap. You’ll be a lot happier.
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Apropos, here’s a NY Times article for all of you to enjoy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/nyregion/16call.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin
Like I said, this city is full of whores.
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“Prostitution should be legalized so I don’t have to waste time and money flying to Nevada when I want an acceptable piece of ass in my old age.”
You could also think of retiring here. We’ve been here almost nine years (the move was job-related and I am very married, thank you). This way you would have the access and a great place to live too! I get to drive by the Moonlight Bunny Ranch twice a day on my commute.
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let us look at where people are happy and healthy in their sexuality and learn from them about how to be happier ourselves.”
yes, let’s look at where people are happy and healthy in their sexuality: namely, nowhere.
the more primitive the society, the MORE restrictions it places on sexuality (especially women’s). quit giving us this happy-ass margaret-mead noble-savage bullshit.
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T, the pic is of Jessica White.
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Well there are lot of blacks and Arabs in Sweden. I think they make up about ten percent. Most are recent immigrants or first generation Swedes.
Somewhat more than 10 % of Sweden’s population is of immigrant background. Almost half of these are Finns and over half are Europeans. Finns, though, are much less “feminized” than Swedes if the measure of feminization is the political influence of feminism. In fact, Swedes look so effeminate to Finnish eyes that adolescents have branded them gay to the extent that gay and Swedish are now nearly synonymous in Finnish. (Not kidding. Ask any Finn.)
Arabs and Africans in northern Europe are piss-poor seducers (not surprisingly, since they mainly come from cultures that do not have a dating culture, much less a nightclub culture).
Can you explain who or what feminized white are?
Whenever you meet a guy who has absolutely no game, it’s very common to find out that they had either a repressed religious upbringing *or* a repressed feminist upbringing, by some liberal female relatives who PCfied everything they told about relations, or worse, actively indoctricated them with nonsense about how pinching ass is bad and so on when they were teenagers.
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Did nobody read my post on feminism? You people continue to equate feminism with prudery. It JUST AIN’T SO!!
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68 Slumlord
“Clear your head of all that feminist and New Age crap. You’ll be a lot happier.”
So you’re for prostitution? Why not “socially encourage it here too?” Is there anyone here who has any kind of personal aversion to it? As in; they would not be so happy if their daughters became prostitutes? I mean, according to so many of the intellectually superior posters here, prostitution is practically the earmark of an evolved society.
Then whomever has that opinion maybe ought to take it a step further and we could have prestigious colleges teaching the fine art and business of prostitution. Mainstream women could now earn occupational certificates, AA’s, BA’s, MA’s, and PHD’s in prostitution. Since it has existed for so many years as such a healthy, normal, and socially accepted profession I don’t see why you don’t then want to take it right into the mainstream and away from sleazy places like Las Vegas. Or are you and others here going to accuse me of more airy-fairy, new age, feminist, Margaret Meadism?
Maybe it’s just me, I just see that so many here, for being so smart, seem so dismally stupid. Your heads are so filled with bullshit that you don’t see that you’re just being hypnotized into not only accepting but approving of what is essentially sick in our society. How will it ever change if you don’t get your heads out of your asses?
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Candy, can’t resist coming back to ask why on earth you appear to think that slumlord, or any of us, approve of prostitution? Roissy seems to do so, but that’s his take on it. I certainly don’t.
I think prostitution is a terrible thing, bad for the women (or men) who do it, even if they do it of their own free will, bad for their clients, bad for society. Yet your earlier posts suggest that you think I do. Why?
Slumlord doesn’t exactly approve of it either; he just says it is, or can be, a free choice for the people who engage in it, that it doesn’t necessarily happen as a result of coercion. I don’t think I agree that it is related to the suppression of rape (i.e. that prostitution is more likely where rape is forbidden), but otherwise he makes an uncontroversial point.
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For the record, I DO believe that decriminilization of prostitution IS the sign of an enlightened society. It should not be a crime that some people need to buy sexual pleasure, or even prefer it. Sex-for-money should not be stigmatized; it’s no less honest than the many other kinds of things people trade sex for. If it were decriminalized, it wouldn’t be the sleazy, dangerous, degrading phenomena that it is now, thus prostitutes wouldn’t be subject to the working conditions that make it such a risky and unpleasant profession (pimps, arrest, drugs, disease, etc.) This is the case in Amsterdam. Also, decrim. would acknowledge, at last, that the practice has always existed and will always exist.
Of course, first we’d have to learn and really believe that sex itself is not sleazy, dangerous and degrading. As a society we have a long way to go.
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Oh! This thread is still going, I thought it was finished!
Candy Cane: Stop moving the goal posts. First you say that Christianity is responsible for prostitution and you are proven wrong and then shifting goalposts you claim that I approve of prostitution, you are wrong again.
Marcy’s:
I DO believe that decriminalization of prostitution IS the sign of an enlightened society.
No, it’s a sign of a mercantilist society; one that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Perhaps you should take a job at Merrill Lynch.
Sex-for-money should not be stigmatized
Really, so for how much are you prepared to do it? Do you take visa?
Group discount?
If it were decriminalized, it wouldn’t be the sleazy, dangerous, degrading phenomena that it is now
More feminist disconnect with reality. I work with an ex stripper from Amsterdam who had to leave the country because of threats from the criminal elements which control the sex industry there. Prostitution, by its nature is sleezy. Legalising it legalises sleeze and effectively institutionalises it. The pimps put on business suits and call themselves businessmen. The window dressing changes but it still remains dangerous and still is degrading. Over here in Australia its pretty much legal and regulated but the girls still get abused
There is no “alphaness” in banging a hooker.
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Interesting, slumlord, to hear from someone who knows a little about prostitution in Amsterdam. I think you’re mistaken about one thing, though: the idea that legalizing prostitution minimizes its dangers doesn’t come from feminists, many of whom do in fact disapprove of it. (Not all, Marcys, I didn’t say all!) It’s mainly the libertarians who support and promote the idea in their writings.
I’ve never been certain myself whether legalizing it lessens the corruption inherent in prostitution, however slightly, or simply spreads the corruption around among a larger group of people.
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Slumlord said:
“Sex-for-money should not be stigmatized
Really, so for how much are you prepared to do it?”
If I support something such as decrim. of prostitution, that means I have to do it? Well, I’m afraid nobody would hire me at this point in my life.
Seriously, do you honestly think this is an intelligent level of debate? That it makes any sense whatsoever?
“Prostitution, by its nature is sleezy.”
I don’t think the temple goddesses of ancient societies who schooled young men in the art of making love would have agreed with you.
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ssWCvw Blogs rating, add your blog to be rated for free:
http://blogsrate.net
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Point is: even if they are “victims,” who cares?
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Rarfy has a point. These overpaid and overused “high risk low class last resorts” DO spread herpes and HPV (cancer causing virus) at the same time they sing about how they are so into safe sex. Simple math, logic and medical facts state the obvious. Spitzer did not want to use condoms, many other high rollers like him don’t. Human filth like Veronica Monet (“a worthless piece of a** – art” ha, ha, ha) gush on and on about how glamorous it is to be a living toilet for strange men. Her and other victims of their own stupidity LURE more real victims – the CHILDREN upon whose back the sex industry has always rested on.
No thanks to the media for going along with the stories that push Spitzer’s human toilet as not being a mere human toilet. There are 50 + different strains of STDS that can kill unborn babies, infect one’s own brain, cause infertility, MANY types of cancer, ect. Nothing is new under the sun – women and men who engage in prostitution make our children, their families, their wives and society their victims. They crow on and on about safe sex with these lowly females – but a man sharing their bodies is at 1,000,000 times the risk of an STD compared to staying intimate with his own wife. Get a clue people! Let’s put these scum out of business! Indulge in the sex that leaves no shame – with your loving partner.
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Having helped many prostitutes out of the buisness. I can tell you it’s addictive for many reasons,there’s many different women that get into for differnet reasons BUT none are because they like it and NOBODY ever wants to be a prostitute.
The ones in brothels that drone on and on how they love there jobs are in deep deep denial! I’ve seen them and worked with them,if you scratch the surface you get to their original wound that brought them to that point and the lies they tell themselves,even if it’s the “sex they love” they are detached from so much emotinally they;re not even in their bodies while with a John!
There’s not ONE little girl in this world who says I want to be a prostitute,stripper or porn star when I grow up!NOT ONE!!!
The situation with Ashely like everything in life can’t be judged until one knows her or her life. There could be 100 reasons she sold out and took the easy and painful path but I can tell you this there was no happiness or contentment with her self under the surface,don’t kid yourself into thinking she’s what some call “a high class hooker” no amount of money in the world is worth something so soul destroying for a woman,just because she’s not what most people see as the “typical junkie prostitute” doesn’t mean she’s not in as much pain,and nobody can say just because this she’s not capable of healing!
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