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Chateau Heartiste

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Big Rapport Mistake

March 19, 2008 by CH

Emotionally connecting with a girl is 90% of getting her into your bed. The first ten minutes of meeting her — swooping in, introducing yourself, steering the conversation, and building her attraction to you through body language and high value stories — while considered the hardest part of courtship by most guys, is really just a small piece of the pick up puzzle. The fact is, most guys fuck it up with girls during those long interludes on the second date when they are face to face getting to know each other.

The reason for this is that men and women have fundamentally different thought processes. In short: men focus, women sample. A topic of conversation comes up and the guy wants to analyze it fully, drilling down to the tiniest detail and debating the pros and cons, while the girl wants to use the topic as a springboard to explore related topics. Biologically, this makes perfect sense, as men raise their status in big part by solving problems, and women judge a man’s strength of character by gauging his responses to a variety of scenarios. Men should be aware that women won’t show their hand so blatantly by asking probing questions directly; instead, they use the chaotic give and take of conversation to expose any insecurities he may be hiding.

The underlying dynamic — women normally need hours of subtle interrogation to deem a man worthy of sex, while men need only a second of eyeballing her head to toe to deem her worthy of pursuing — accounts for much of the misunderstanding between the sexes.

One of the biggest mistakes a man will make is superficial listening. This is where he gets wrapped up inside his head thinking hard about a clever response he can impress her with while she’s still talking to him. Usually he will latch onto a “keyword” to launch his diatribe before she has finished her thoughts. The result is an uncomfortable, forced rapport where the guy is interrupting her every other word trying to find common ground and leaving her feeling like she is not being heard.

Example

Him: What’s your ideal vacation spot?

Her: Well, I would really love to go scuba diving along a coral reef in warm Caribbean waters. The colors of the fish are amazing, and you can feel so peaceful under the water, away from all the stress of your normal life…

Him: Oh yeah! Scuba diving is fun! My favorite part was falling backwards off the boat into the water.

***

This guy made the typical man mistake of grasping at the solid object — the noun– in her answer instead of discerning what was really important, which was the feeling scuba diving gave her and her hint at what she values in life.

If you do this, train yourself to step out of your head. The simplest way to improve this part of your game is to shut up, nod, and say uh huh… uh huh… a lot while she’s speaking. Don’t worry about what you’re going to say next while she’s talking. Give her room to talk. Never argue or get obsessed with the details in her stories. Don’t correct her like some nerd study partner when she flubs an inconsequential fact. If she’s giving her opinion, don’t judge her for it. This is the rapport stage, not the attraction stage. You want to build a connection and the easiest way to do that is to let her feel comfortable around you revealing her hopes and desires. You’ll get into a smooth conversational rhythm faster if you stop being anxious about responding to every one of her points.

Be mentally flexible.

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Posted in Game | 141 Comments

141 Responses

  1. on March 19, 2008 at 6:26 pm Peter

    A topic of conversation comes up and the guy wants to analyze it fully, drilling down to the tiniest detail and debating the pros and cons

    Who are the people that write absurdly long and esoteric articles on Wikipedia that serve no useful purpose? Almost all men, I’m sure.

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  2. on March 19, 2008 at 6:26 pm Hope

    This started out interesting but ended up boring. Do people really have to put up with hours of such inane, contrived conversations just to have some nookie?

    LikeLike


  3. on March 19, 2008 at 6:38 pm Steve Johnson

    Hope:

    Nope, not all people do. Just guys.

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  4. on March 19, 2008 at 6:52 pm candy cane

    My question is why do you want to build a connection? Is she just a means to an end here? What end? Am I to assume; nooky is the desired end result and the sooner the better?

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  5. on March 19, 2008 at 7:15 pm Usually Lurking

    Hope:

    Nope, not all people do. Just guys.

    Yeah, most girls can get nookie at almost any time, regardless of what they say or do.

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  6. on March 19, 2008 at 7:31 pm DF

    Check out the big brain on candy cane, so what are you taking like ginko biloba or some such?

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  7. on March 19, 2008 at 7:33 pm Usually Lurking

    Am I to assume; nooky is the desired end result and the sooner the better?

    Guys really, really, really like sex. They were obsessed with it in 2000 years ago in Rome, 200 years ago in Peru and today, right here, in America.

    Recently, we have started using “Dating” and “Hanging Out” to spend time with the opposite sex. And, yes, it is pretty recent that (some of) the Human Race has started doing this.

    It is indirect in nature. Men do not come out and say, “You are Hot, I want to Fuck You”.

    Women do not come out and say, “You seem nice, how likely is it that you would want to get married and raise children with me. I am not sure if you are the ‘one’, but it is important that I know this as soon as possible”.

    So, we go about these things indirectly.

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  8. on March 19, 2008 at 7:46 pm Montauk

    if you have to play “shrink” to get some action, she’s not worth it. women who constantly need their feelings/perspectives validated are useless in bed. end of story.

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  9. on March 19, 2008 at 7:46 pm agnostic

    Including those “uh huh”s and “i know”s is necessary, since I see some guys listening well but not signaling that they’re still in control, i.e. they keep very quiet.

    I think that’s called “backchannel” communication, and I believe it’s more typical among higher-dominance people — or that people perceive it to be, I can’t recall which.

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  10. on March 19, 2008 at 8:04 pm candy cane

    U.L.

    “So, we go about these things indirectly.”

    Therein lies the problem, more for women I guess.

    7 DF “what are you taking LIKE ginko biloba or some such?”

    You talk like a Valley Girl and I should know as I live fairly close to the San Fernando Valley. No, I am not taking Gingko Biloba (you spelled it wrong) or anything LIKE Gingko Biloba. For your information I am of average intelligence and am not like many of the infallible genius’ who frequent this site, of which I assume you are one.

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  11. on March 19, 2008 at 8:04 pm Virgle Kent

    I wasn’t trying to fuck anyone in Kindergarten

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  12. on March 19, 2008 at 8:07 pm Shannon

    VK, stop looking at my boobs.

    I think everyone, male and female, learned about basic listening skills at some point. Even if they maybe don’t USE those skills, we’ve all been told to just listen when someone speaks, instead of interrupting or spending the whole time formulating a response. I fail to see how that’s “game” and not “normal polite human interaction.”

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  13. on March 19, 2008 at 8:08 pm Shannon

    Also, VK, I bet you were getting digits in the maternity ward. Don’t be coy.

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  14. on March 19, 2008 at 8:10 pm Hope

    Nope, not all people do. Just guys.

    I have very few friends because the things normal people (men and women) usually talk about bore me to death. So is faking interest and putting up with these complicated mating rituals really worth it for the variety of sex? It seems so tedious and unrewarding, except for the couple of minutes of grunting and release.

    It’s also funny that the post begins with “emotional connection,” but by the end it pretty much goes “uh huh” and “shutting up.” I’ve never built a connection with any guy by doing more than half the conversation. When I find that happening I scale back and think to myself he’s probably not interested. Do women really think they can have an emotional connection with a guy by doing all the talking?

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  15. on March 19, 2008 at 8:12 pm Noxxy

    I think building rapport is an often overlooked subject when it comes to gaming. Thanks for the post.

    Shannon, stop being a heifer.

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  16. on March 19, 2008 at 8:23 pm Usually Lurking

    Therein lies the problem, more for women I guess.

    If indirectness is a problem for women, well, I can not see how this is a problem that men created (I am not implying that is what you said).

    If it were up to Men, they would be absolutely direct with no mixed messages.

    Look at Gay Men and their mating culture. I am sure that it can be brutal at times, but damn are they honest and direct.

    They are indirect for the woman’s benefit.

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  17. on March 19, 2008 at 8:23 pm Shawn

    Candy Cane, if you’re going to lamely correct others’ grammar and spelling, you should know that an apostrophe doesn’t make a word plural. I.e., it is “geniuses” not “genius’.”

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  18. on March 19, 2008 at 8:34 pm instantExcitement

    Even guys who are natural conversationalists suffer at this skill. And in today’s work world of self promotion it becomes even more difficult to reel yourself in. The funny part about this is many so called “pick up artists” refer to this stage as normal conversation, which, at least for me, was not the case. I find the approach to be really easy and the comfort and rapport building to be more difficult, becuase I think like most men and focus on the solid objects.

    My advice for other guys is to imagine the context of her story, don’t analyze it and don’t try to relate to it, and don’t offer guesses to why she likes the feel of the water, just imagine the water. It keeps things in perspective and stops your mind from trying to analyze what she’s really trying to say(Hint: This is what she’s really trying to say)

    For Women: Men like knowing about every random detail becuase we think it’s the only way to paint a true picture of you, so keep us asking for more by sharing little tidbits

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  19. on March 19, 2008 at 8:55 pm Noxxy

    Shannon, duly noted. Although, I thought my comment was age appropriate before you told me that you were a cow.
    My apologies for being a jackass.

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  20. on March 19, 2008 at 8:57 pm candy cane

    18: Good point, U.L. Men did not create the fear that women many women have about stating their desires or vice versa.

    19 Shawn: I wasn’t aware that my correction was “lame”. I have been enlightened in more ways than one. A spelling correction is always appreciated.

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  21. on March 19, 2008 at 9:04 pm Shannon

    Noxxy, I’m really more of a well-aged steak.

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  22. on March 19, 2008 at 9:48 pm John Smith


    because a hot chick sitting near a man will often seize up his normal brain functioning.

    How could this come about evolutionarily? Holdover from lizard brain maybe?

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  23. on March 19, 2008 at 11:12 pm Reggie

    I don’t know. You make a lot of good points here, but couldn’t a lot of this be applicable to anyone you’re just starting to get to know, not just women? When you first meet a guy, you don’t immediately delve into minutiae (excluding a work relationship, of course, where you’re focused on getting whatever it is done). You touch on a variety of subjects as you attempt to get a feel for the person, delving deeper when it seems like something you share a mutual interest in, or at least something that would offer up an interesting bit of discussion. But you return to that shallower level after you’ve lightly explored the topic.

    Same for those conversational-bridge “Uh-huhs” and occasional head nods. You’re just indicating that you’re following along and are still engaged in the conversation, no matter who you’re talking to. And you have to be careful in both cases; if you seem to intently focused on what they’re saying — no matter who it is — it’ll weird them out, while appearing disinterested will annoy them, though probably moreso in women than men.

    Maybe not, though.

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  24. on March 19, 2008 at 11:15 pm Gunslingergregi

    That’s probably why you should just f&%$ before you talk after a few hundred times if it was good you can always build a relationship. Then if you are an “alpha” and you need fresh meat. You just tell her to go get you a new one. No big deal as long as you keep laying it down and she understands you will love her till death do you part.

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  25. on March 19, 2008 at 11:17 pm cuchulainn

    disqualifying is a good way to build rapport. the more you disqualify, the more they feel comfortable opening up to you.

    Dan, the ‘socialhitchhiker’ of Charismarts, Jugglers outfit (my fav PUA), explains disqualification HERE with a great hour long podcast on the subject to boot.

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  26. on March 19, 2008 at 11:26 pm cuchulainn

    Disqualification Example, to build a foundation of superpendous rapport!

    Him: OK honey, your turn (you’ve challenged her to truth or dare). Does size matter?

    Her: ehhhhh… no, not really [insert cliche]

    Him: GREAT! Because mine is the size of a tic tac. Shape of one too.

    [You have just DQ’d, and she’ll be so into you]

    And later on, after the grim deed is done.

    Her: Well, it wasn’t the size of a tic tac.

    Him: Oh, well not exactly. Same shape though.

    Her: Ehhh, no.

    Him: …. Ok, what have I been eating?

    AHAHAHAHA.

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  27. on March 19, 2008 at 7:28 pm Shannon

    “Don’t worry about what you’re going to say next while she’s talking. Give her room to talk. Never argue or get obsessed with the details in her stories.”

    I like that the basic manners that we learned in kindergarten are now high-end game. Does this mean tomorrow’s post will be called Caring is Sharing?

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  28. on March 19, 2008 at 8:00 pm Virgle Kent

    I love how some women think some of this idea is so hum drum and boring as if EVERY GUY knows this stuff. Then you get out in the real world and some guys can’t even go up to a girl and say, “hi my name is….”

    Like I said knowing something is way different from doing it. It’s easy for a girl to sit there and judge guys who don’t even know the simple basics, yet those girls aren’t the ones who are pressured to pursue by society.

    I think he did way too good of a job of describing this aspect of game that is often overlooked. If I didn’t grow up around women, I’d still be just looking at other womens boobs when they talked. Everyone knows how to listen, but paying attention to what’s coming out of their mouth when you’re thinking about what you’re trying to put into their mouth is difficult for a man.

    Ease up ladies. Advance game on how to pull a mother daughter threesome comes WAY latter. For now it’s just baby steps.

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  29. on March 19, 2008 at 8:26 pm editor

    I like that the basic manners that we learned in kindergarten are now high-end game.

    for things we all learned in kindergarten it’s surprising how many adults forget the basic lessons.

    anyhow, the observable reality is that a lot of men screw up the breezy conversational part of dating women because a hot chick sitting near a man will often seize up his normal brain functioning. i’ve read about breathing exercises taught to men to help them relax and appear more dominant in the presence of a cute girl.

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  30. on March 19, 2008 at 8:30 pm Usually Lurking

    I think everyone, male and female, learned about basic listening skills at some point. Even if they maybe don’t USE those skills, we’ve all been told to just listen when someone speaks, instead of interrupting or spending the whole time formulating a response.

    That is not what he was saying. He was saying that Men should listen more like Women do.

    Men absolutely listen. To use his terminology, we listen for nouns and action items. We are focused on getting results.

    When we are working with other Men and there are no Women around, well, damn, we are brutal. We are not neccesarily trying to be mean to the other Guy(s), it is just that we don’t care if we hurt his feelings.

    Work Hard, No Complaining, Produce Results.

    But, that kind of focused thinking, and the type of focused listening that comes with it, is not conducive to Rapport and Romance.

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  31. on March 19, 2008 at 8:31 pm Shannon

    Noxxy, if you’re going to toss out barnyard insults, at least call me a jackass. It’s a funnier word. Also, heifers are young cows, and I’m old.

    you should write a book called, “Everything I Need to Know (to Get Laid) I Learned in Kindergarten.” Might have some copyright issues, though.

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  32. on March 20, 2008 at 12:53 am Days of Broken Arrows

    “Never argue or get obsessed with the details in her stories.”

    On the other hand, don’t be a pushover and try to remember some details, or she’ll get annoyed at that, too.

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  33. on March 19, 2008 at 9:21 pm Noxxy

    Kobe maybe? Now I feel a little douchetastic. Well played Shannon. You took the wind right out of my sails. I’m sure he didn’t need the help but I felt compelled to stick up for him. But with hind site being what it is, I do see your point as well. Cheers.

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  34. on March 20, 2008 at 1:32 am Shannon

    Noxxy, I may not have taken ALL of the wind out of your sails…but I sure do suck. All is well.

    I get annoyed whenever common sense is considered innovative. Like, the home organization industry. Why, yes, if you get rid of a bunch of crap, and put what’s left over in boxes, you won’t have clutter. Wow!

    I see today’s post the same way. Why, yes, if you have basic listening skills and convey to a woman that you are not a pompous self-serving ass, she’ll be more inclined to like you.

    If this is the sort of ABC stuff that requires in-depth explanation nowadays, the human race will simply die out. And, with his dying gasp, the last man on Earth will find a way to blame feminism and fat chicks for dooming us to extinction.

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  35. on March 19, 2008 at 10:29 pm Jewcano

    Translation of post:

    Best way to talk to women is to not actually listen to them.

    I find this doesn’t work. If I don’t concentrate I’ll get distracted by something shiny.

    I don’t know where all this kindergarden crap comes from. At that age I was totally into older girls.

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  36. on March 20, 2008 at 2:30 am candy cane

    30 C. ” The Game is natural. Running over and pulling the hair of a girl you like? Elementary Neg!”

    Pardon me, but that is NOT “neg”. It is called getting attention. Little boys AND men suffer from lack of female attention which is why they will do anything and everything to get it.

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  37. on March 20, 2008 at 2:36 am candy cane

    ^ Before anyone decides to have a big hissy fit because I stated my comment 37 as fact, the reason I did is because it is fact to me. I heard it on “In Sync with the Opposite Sex” one of my valuable sources of information. Other people here have other valuable sources of information. If anyone wants further argument or “proof” for my statement they can buy the CDs on Amazon.com. Otherwise, leave me alone! 😀

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  38. on March 19, 2008 at 10:41 pm cuchulainn

    get her to read you the next chapter from a book you’ve started, in the park or wherever.

    john

    the pua’s think it’s hardwired by fear of reprisal (alpha’s will kill you, as in small communities its probable hot girls are with the alphas), and fear of losing social status (other girls in the tribe will hear gossip about your rejection and be unlikely to mate with you as a result)

    i’m not sure i buy it. selection for something like that would have to be pretty fucking beneficial. seems damn maladaptive to me. also, why wouldn’t something simple like ‘approach indirectly and find out her relation to other tribe members’ have evolved instead? i think the game itself was partly selected for. i used to treat women i liked with playful indifference, seemed like the natural thing to do, but then when i analysed dating in my later teens with my neocortex i started being a nice guy, and got nowhere. selection for the game makes a lot more sense than selection for approach anxiety.

    “you should write a book called, “Everything I Need to Know (to Get Laid) I Learned in Kindergarten.” Might have some copyright issues, though.”

    This statement is so true. The Game is natural. Running over and pulling the hair of a girl you like? Elementary Neg!

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  39. on March 20, 2008 at 3:22 am dave

    i always have a good laugh reading these posts and replys. in my younger days i went through all of this nonsense just to get laid, too. now that middle age has taken hold and i can hear the clock ticking loudly in the backround, i get right to the point without all the rigamarole.

    and trust me it works more often than not.

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  40. on March 20, 2008 at 4:03 am Days of Broken Arrows

    I have to give a high five to Johnny Five for his comment #38. It really is hard to keep it zipped when a women who should know better starts to drone on about astrology, or numerology or that they’re “spiritual but not religions.”

    The naive-political-victim stuff gets annoying too. Especially when you’re walking along the streets of DC seeing homeless folks (the majority of which, by far are men) and she’s going on about women’s “oppression” while looking for the keys to her Beamer.

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  41. on March 20, 2008 at 4:08 am rina

    @ johnny five

    i’m also mostly the literary type and well versed in real science and statistics, and generally a fairly knowledgeable girl.

    but on dates with guys i’ve been known to drop the numerology/ new-agey stuff. well, by date 3 at least. that stuff isn’t really bullshit, because it can actually be explained in scientific ways. and even if it is, if the guy is interested in decent intellectual discourse and interested in me, he’ll at least hear what i have to say.

    a woman can generally tell if the guy is listening. believe me.

    maybe you’re just close-minded? mental flexibility and open-mindedness are very positive traits that will not just allow you to get further with women, but will also make women love you because you are more accepting of them.

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  42. on March 20, 2008 at 4:15 am rina

    conversation i’ve had:

    me: i’m reading a book on the 6th sense
    him: really? what is it about? (i can tell he already thinks it’s bs)
    me: just how everyone can be psychic if they learn how to
    him: my mom thinks she’s psychic
    me: is she?
    him: no, it’s just that hindsight is 20/20
    me: my mom is the same way. but there must be something to this? it opens the door to empathy, at least, even if predicting the future is bogus
    him: sure, sure (secretly rolls eyes)

    hey, he sort of tried. i applaud his effort and love him for accepting my girly nonsense while simultaneously not falling for the bs.

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  43. on March 20, 2008 at 5:23 am InterestedParty

    Hope:

    “Do people really have to put up with hours of such inane, contrived conversations just to have some nookie?
    “

    Sadly, yes. I too wish it weren’t this way.

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  44. on March 20, 2008 at 5:49 am Reggie

    #42 rina
    but on dates with guys i’ve been known to drop the numerology/ new-agey stuff. well, by date 3 at least. that stuff isn’t really bullshit, because it can actually be explained in scientific ways. and even if it is, if the guy is interested in decent intellectual discourse and interested in me, he’ll at least hear what i have to say.

    Was this supposed to be ironic? “Decent intellectual discourse” and claptrap like numerology and astrology are mutually exclusive entities.

    maybe you’re just close-minded?

    There’s being open-minded, and then there’s being an idiot. Men — and all rational people, actually — may be able to feign polite acceptance of this kind of crap, but if they have any self-respect, in no way will they actually believe a word of it.

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  45. on March 20, 2008 at 6:22 am Jewcano

    Rina, I hate to tell you, but most of the people who believe that sort of stuff also think 9/11 was an inside job and that our people have been planning out the mortage crisis from a basement in Hoboken since 1976.

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  46. on March 20, 2008 at 2:35 am johnny five

    your advice here is well taken, but extremely difficult to follow much of the time.

    although i’m mostly the literary type, i’m also well versed in real science and statistics, and generally a fairly knowledgeable guy. therefore, during the ‘rapport building’ stage, it’s extremely difficult for me to keep my mouth shut if the girl mentions any of the following topics:
    * astrology, numerology, or any other occult bullshit that has been conclusively proven to be … bullshit
    * zealous repetition of unfounded statistics (like the ‘pay gap’) that have largely been debunked or were simply fabricated from whole cloth in the first place
    * new-age bullshit that mangles terms like ‘energy’ beyond all recognition
    * ‘women in our country are oppressed’ / ‘it’s a man’s world’ / other ridiculous claims of victimhood by the privileged sex
    * ‘stress’ that is either unreasonable (‘i’m overworked – i almost hit forty hours last week’) or self-imposed (‘i go out and party all the time, and now i’m broke, sleep-deprived, or failing at school’)
    * anything else that betrays an obvious lack of intelligence

    if any of these topics are brought up, and the girl is hot enough that her ROI might still be positive, my only choice is to begin an ever-increasing salvo of satirical comments. i start with ostensibly agreeable conversation that’s actually laced with mocking irony, and, if i’m really getting annoyed but am still attracted (damn you hormones!), i’ll ramp it up until the volume reaches ‘sardonic’.

    this approach often leads to mutual rejection, of the ‘good riddance’ variety on both sides, but just as often leads to good old-fashioned, dirty-talking, hair-pulling, frenzied hate-fucking.

    i am utterly fucking incapable of feigning serious interest in anything that doesn’t seriously interest me. fortunately, just about anything of real substance and value interests me, so i have no problem finding common ground – as long as it’s not ground that must be dredged from the bay of bullshit.

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  47. on March 20, 2008 at 6:51 am candy cane

    43 rina

    “hey, he sort of tried. i applaud his effort and love him for accepting my girly nonsense while simultaneously not falling for the bs.”

    You love him for accepting your girly nonsense? He didn’t accept it, he barely tolerated it. If the subject was something that interested you it was not B.S. B.S. is a subjective phenomenon. I think really he was simply NOT for you, like I need to tell you. There are plenty of men who are interested in more esoteric knowledge. Just because it isn’t mainstream does not mean it’s without value; perhaps great value.

    The masses are decidedly ignorant about many things and think just because they don’t understand something it is bullshit! So, you weren’t for him either. I just don’t understand the “love him for accepting the bullshit” sentiment.

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  48. on March 20, 2008 at 7:22 am johnny five

    hey, he sort of tried. i applaud his effort and love him for accepting my girly nonsense while simultaneously not falling for the bs

    so, the end result was…?

    the validity of your advice hangs in the balance, my dear.

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  49. on March 20, 2008 at 10:20 am rina

    Firing squad-

    Let me first say this: I love men not just because my biology says so, but because you guys are the more rational gender. I understand that when I go on a date, have a conversation, am in a relationship with, or even comment at a blog post to a guy, I should try to use logic and reason.
    This blog exists, aside from trying to make women feel bad about things that are out of our control, to teach men a little about the less logical, fairer sex, right? Sort of.

    Chicks love numerology and spirituality and stuff because we like it. It appeals to something in us, and most of us don’t like it in a scientific way. We like that it calms our neuroses. We like that it lets us see beyond our own problems (always a good thing!) A girl who tries to see the ‘light’ is way less cynical and close-minded to what you like than some gasp…lawyer. What we enjoy about it is that it is above reason. Trying to reason it fully removes any interesting element out of it.
    Don’t bother getting mad or trying to make sense of it. You’re better off just listening to it, like my dad’s done for years.

    Think of that stuff as a shit test. Why? Because there is going to be a lot more of that shit to come. But it will be in personalized form. I won’t want to do something and you’ll think it’s irrational. I will have some sort of belief and you will think it’s unfounded.
    But guess what, you will, too. My god, is it rational for a man to drive to 45 minutes to pick me up and then wake up an hour early to drive me back when he could just spend the night at my place b/c he works 15 mins from my apt? No, his feeling comfortable isn’t quite rational. And when a guy just feels a feeling and then uses some crazy logic to back it up. We don’t care about your logic, because we know it’s not really logical. Nothing in love is. So accept the numerology just like you accept that we have our periods once a month. No one is asking you to believe it, and if she is then she is really far up her own arse. But so are you if you sit there and give her a diatribe about how this shit is totally stupid- that’s all your ego.

    so, the end result was…?
    I wasn’t looking to recruit him onto my team. If he had immediately jumped in and said, yes baby, let me read that book after you I would have thought him a fool. But he did engage me in a conversation for my sake, just like I listen to his little political rants or sit there and watch a sports game with him.

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  50. on March 20, 2008 at 7:18 am johnny five

    rina:

    but on dates with guys i’ve been known to drop the numerology/ new-agey stuff.

    my view: girl ‘dropping’ that ‘stuff’ = acceptable, with the proviso that she’s also ‘dropping’ some other ‘stuff’ that (1) serves as an excuse for her talking in tongues, (2) makes her all happysmilyhorny, and (3) convinces her that i’m right when i say she should pick another female with an exceptionally nice aura, and then both of them can aura-ly bring me to a different type of ecstasy.

    otherwise, if she ‘drops’ that ‘stuff’, then i’ll drop that stuff (= her).

    —

    that stuff isn’t really bullshit, because it can actually be explained in scientific ways.

    i refuse to hijack threads.
    david alexander, do you hear me? good. now do as i do.

    —

    and even if it is,

    this, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a major concession to the other side.

    —

    a woman can generally tell if the guy is listening. believe me.

    i know that. and believe me, i listen.

    i fucking listen.

    i listen with animal intensity. i pierce the silence with penetrating questions, making sure she gets the full thrust of what i’m saying. i slam into soft banalities with hard facts. women are usually surprised by how quickly and precisely i can finger the sweet spot of their emotions.

    yes, i fucking listen.

    and it works.

    i’m glad we agree.

    —

    mental flexibility and open-mindedness

    i call a spade a spade, a tendency that should not be confused with ‘close[sic]-mindedness’.

    my mind is extremely open to new perspectives, experiences, and worldviews, but i also have an exceptionally keen bullshit radar.

    —

    but will also make women love you because you are more accepting of them.

    i’m extremely accepting of women who are women in the true sense of the word. i treat ladylike ladies with an acceptance that borders on relish, and a respect that borders on deference. so that’s not a problem.

    ‘making women love [me]’ – a phrasing that evokes manipulation of the worst sort, although i know you didn’t mean it that way – has never been, and never will be, a problem. but, thanks for the advice.

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  51. on March 20, 2008 at 11:43 am Shannon

    johnny five-

    “so, the end result was…?”

    Men. So goal-oriented.

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  52. on March 20, 2008 at 11:44 am Shannon

    johnny five-

    “so, the end result was…?”

    Men. So goal-oriented, so into “the point” until it’s all pointless and unspeakably nerdy.

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  53. on March 20, 2008 at 12:20 pm virglekent

    Candy Cane,

    Sorry but I’m going to have to jump down your throat for being a dumb fucking idiot.

    “The Reason I did is because it’s fact to me, I heard it on In Sync with the opposite sex”.

    Chick please it’s cool that it’s fact in YOUR reality BUT your reality doesn’t make what you believe a “fact” to everyone else . Especially since in your reality yesterday you came back and back peddled on what you said about the guys comments on the Author of that cougar book to totally agree with him that she’s an idiot.

    Little boys and Men are not the leading sex getting cosmetic surgery, implants, tucks and whatever. They’re also not the ones with eating disorders. Even though that number is growing among men, females are still trying to do whatever they think is needed to look young. Why because the number one way (among other) a woman can get a guys attention is by looks, that’s it.

    If there is one sex that clearly needs more attention than the other it’s females.

    Nice try with your delusional facts.

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  54. on March 20, 2008 at 1:05 pm DF

    Shannon #51, good catch. Does hightened awareness come with aging steak?

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  55. on March 20, 2008 at 1:51 pm Morgan

    OT, do you agree with Maxim’s verdict on the world’s least sexy women? It includes Sarah Jessica Parker, Madonna and Amy Winehouse.

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  56. on March 20, 2008 at 1:56 pm DF

    Shannon, indeed. I thought VK put it best. Talking about game and using it are two very different things.

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  57. on March 20, 2008 at 2:07 pm DF

    Least sexy women in the world?! Shiiiiiit. Have you seen how many ugly women there are in this world?

    Nevertheless, I would agree those are among the least sexy CELEBRITIES.

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  58. on March 20, 2008 at 2:25 pm Usually Lurking

    Chicks love numerology and spirituality and stuff because we like it.

    Fair enough. I don’t think that women need to defend their interest in Numerology any more than men need to defend their undying support for a group of (ever-changing) athletes that he has never met.

    and most of us don’t like it in a scientific way.

    Thank God.

    My god, is it rational for a man to drive to 45 minutes to pick me up and then wake up an hour early to drive me back when he could just spend the night at my place b/c he works 15 mins from my apt?

    I have never met the man, and I have never met you, but yes, it can absolutely be rational. But, point taken.

    No one is asking you to believe it, and if she is then she is really far up her own arse.

    You see, I think that this is the crux. It, at least, seems that women actually believe this stuff over basic verifiable science. That is, it isn’t simply an interest, but an actual guiding light.

    And it is communicated in that manner. It comes across no different than someone saying that they “accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior”. But, instead of subscribing to an old and entrenched religion/gospel, they hang on to, well, numerology. (BTW, I am not religious…it was just an example.)

    But, yes, so many guys need to be right. And it gets real annoying, real fast.

    ——————————————

    If he had immediately jumped in and said, yes baby, let me read that book after you I would have thought him a fool.

    Rina, if you were out with some new friends and one of the girls that you had just met, and were talking to, said that she wanted to read that book after you, would you think her a fool?

    If not, why do you hold them to different standards?

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  59. on March 20, 2008 at 2:37 pm Usually Lurking

    That’s because so many men don’t know how to be polite, willing to hear the other side, and willing to have a conversation vs. some nitpicky debate where you shred a woman until she despises you.

    I can’t speak for Johnny Five and what he does on dates, but…

    I am willing to bet that most of the guys that are trying to make a point, or being overly logical or needing to be right are being more honest, much more honest, than the guys that know how to “listen”.

    I think that a lot of the guys that know how to “listen” are really the guys that know how to “game” women. Instead of being honest about what they think about astrology, they keep it to themselves and maintain good “flow”. Or, possibly, they assume that she is just a woman who is incapable of basic logic and put her in that category. Which is even more disrespectful.

    I am not saying that the first group of guys is a great group. Especially for the guys that NEED to be right. They are truly annoying. But, so often, they are basically honest people. And their logic comes out with that honesty.

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  60. on March 20, 2008 at 2:39 pm instantExcitement

    Rina – You’re right women love to talk and hear about all of that nonsense, and truth be told it works when guys bring up these insane, in my opinion, conversations.

    If you really can’t deal with listening to her mumble about something you think is incoherent, then you need to lead and direct the conversation, but still keep it in the realm of her interests. Stay away from concrete material and talk about thoughts, the future and use color, never discuss anything that has any relevant point, or can be something that can be debated or taken sides on.

    At some point she’s going to expect the guy to respond, and if you’ve only listened, you’ve also locked yourself into this subject, and that’s where most guys, myself included, kill ourselves. We can’t relate and when we pretend to it sounds stupid, or we don’t control body language and already make it clear we think this is stupid. Just remember that most girls like playing games/testing you, and if you think this is unfair, then don’t expect great results.

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  61. on March 20, 2008 at 2:45 pm Hope

    I must be among the few females who are more logical than their mate — he is way more into the spiritualism / shamanism / new age stuff than I am. I was a hard atheist for many years, and while he slowly softened me up about that, I’m still a skeptic on most subject matters.

    I might also think like a guy because I read sentences and pick out certain words, then latch onto them for detailed analysis. It took actual mental effort for me to not pick out the words “scuba diving” in the original post and go into a diatribe about it.

    i slam into soft banalities with hard facts.

    We have a poet in our midst.

    (Not sarcasm.)

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  62. on March 20, 2008 at 3:06 pm Shannon

    Reggie, there’s a fine line between “telling the truth” and “being a contemptuous jackass.” I think post #65 crossed the line there.

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  63. on March 20, 2008 at 3:10 pm candy cane

    54 Virgl Kent! Wow, we are developing quite an awesome connection here. Choose your weapon!

    “your reality doesn’t make what you believe a “fact” to everyone else”

    No shit, Sherlock! I never expected it to. Contrary to your opinion, I am not that stupid. I have better things to do than spend inordinate amounts of time on a blog site trying to force my opinions/beliefs on people with endless circles of analysis. I mentioned my source; that is all. Get a grip!

    “you came back and back peddled on what you said about the guys comments on the Author of that cougar book to totally agree with him that she’s an idiot.”

    Her being an idiot, does not automatically make him NOT an idiot. Is that so hard to understand? And OMFG, Candy qualified her statement, actually CHANGED!!! OMFG evolution goes on, I’m not a Goddamned robot.

    “females are still trying to do whatever they think is needed to look young”

    I for one am not doing anything and everything to look young. I feel young, and that is the best thing of all.

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  64. on March 20, 2008 at 3:11 pm Usually Lurking

    Shannon, I think that Reggie said the same thing that i said, but in a harsher tone.

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  65. on March 20, 2008 at 3:19 pm Shannon

    UL, that’s why I was cool with what you said, and I agree that the big difference is that no one is trying to date Rina. I just thought it was very funny in terms of How Men See the World. I don’t mind being disagreed with.

    I think the Internet makes it far too easy to be rude, and there’s nothing wrong with calling someone out for it.

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  66. on March 20, 2008 at 3:26 pm candy cane

    Johnny:

    Women often use intuition to come to valid conclusions, much to man’s chagrin. Intuition may in fact be a higher form of intelligence. Logic and rationality only get you so far; just ask Albert Einstein. Saying logic is the be all and end all of human existence sells humans short. Just about any computer is more consistently logical than a human and can remember much more.

    So, you’re saying if you can’t explain something scientifically or rationally then it has no value? So how was the universe formed? The big bang? What started the big bang? Where did all that matter come from in the first place? Why is the universe(s) expanding? What force created life? Why do human beings exist? Why does life exist? Simply to create more life? Why? Does sex have value beyond procreation? Why are humans so much more sexual than animals? Science keeps finding it’s limits and finally realizes there are no limits.

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  67. on March 20, 2008 at 3:32 pm Hope

    I think the Internet makes it far too easy to be rude

    People who are rude on the Internet tend to be assholes in real life, too, even if they stop themselves from acting that way all the time for practical purposes.

    You can tell a lot about someone’s character based on how they carry themselves in a virtual space that has virtually no consequences.

    For example, I know guys that have no problems calling men all kinds of names online, but never call women the c-word online.

    fact versus fiction

    Facts are not constants. What once were held as facts even a few years ago are changing rapidly now. The atom was once the smallest unit, then electrons, and now quarks, and possibly strings — which are only theorized but not known for certain.

    Theories in quantum mechanics nowadays consist of “probabilistic” results rather than deterministic ones. I would be very wary of anyone using the word “fact” to describe an absolute truth. The reality is, even with our vast bodies of scientific knowledge, humans still know woefully little.

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  68. on March 20, 2008 at 11:42 am Shannon

    Does anyone else find it completely hilarious that the guys are jumping down Rina’s throat, nitpicking her, and arguing with her over every mundane detail…which is exactly what their hero told them NOT to do when interacting with women?

    I dig astrology and numerology. I worked as a palm reader, even. No, I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job. I also think any guy who shreds me simply because he disagrees is going to get permanently locked out of my pants.

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  69. on March 20, 2008 at 3:47 pm Usually Lurking

    Facts are not constants. What once were held as facts even a few years ago are changing rapidly now. The atom was once the smallest unit, then electrons, and now quarks, and possibly strings

    Fine, but this was based on observation and testing. With more observations, theories and test, so, so many test, knowledge and understanding was increased. The atom was never replaced with Numerology.

    Astronomy, with all of the mistakes that were made, and corrected, along the way, was not replace with Astrology.

    Theories in quantum mechanics nowadays consist of “probabilistic” results rather than deterministic ones. I would be very wary of anyone using the word “fact” to describe an absolute truth. The reality is, even with our vast bodies of scientific knowledge, humans still know woefully little.

    It is true that Physics has become amazingly fascinating and “weird” in the Twentieth Century, but they continue to look for hard evidence. Testable theories and quantifiable results.

    Hope, you are making a semantic argument. So, replace the word “fact” with something else. A rose by any other name…

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  70. on March 20, 2008 at 4:30 pm Hope

    Astronomy, with all of the mistakes that were made, and corrected, along the way, was not replace with Astrology.

    My point is that men, once purveyors of most disciplines including astrology, were not constantly logical and reasonable. Astrology and astronomy were the same discipline (astrologia) that separated in the 17th century during the Age of Reason. Religious institutions, too, have been headed by men for much of western history. These contradict the statement that men tend toward rationality.

    Belief systems change over time. Science is superior in that it accepts and corrects flaws with theories that are proven false. Certain folks here, even Rina, seem to take it as a natural constant that men are more logical. This particular commenting crowd might be more so, but that is no proof that most contemporary men think and behave this way as a whole.

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  71. on March 20, 2008 at 4:32 pm Azuzuru

    Numerology, astrology, palm reading and such have been described as “chick crack.” Yes, they are silly. But men, getting all hostile and sarcastic when a woman brings them up is even sillier. Indulge her. Learn some nonsense lines like “I bet you are an Aquarius” and make up some cold read. Chicks will swoon at it. Make it work for you, it’s gold.

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  72. on March 20, 2008 at 4:38 pm Shannon

    “But men, getting all hostile and sarcastic when a woman brings them up is even sillier.”

    And, in general, getting hostile and sarcastic, aka, treating a woman like she’s dumb, won’t do you any favors. Try a little respect.

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  73. on March 20, 2008 at 4:55 pm Steve Johnson

    Shannon,

    You’ve got it exactly backwards.

    Getting hostile and sarcastic when a woman brings up astrology or palm reading is treating her as a reasonable person who should know better.

    Going along with it and sounding like you believe also is being condescending and insulting (and if you’re good, she won’t be able to tell the difference) because “why should I expect her to have beliefs that make sense, she’s a woman?”.

    a) Which do you think works better?
    b) Which do you think treats the woman as a child and which as an equal?

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  74. on March 20, 2008 at 1:29 pm Shannon

    DF, no, it comes from healthy skepticism and having been married to a guy who Always Had to Be the Smart One.

    I’ve changed my mind. he is right. Basic listening skills and respect for other viewpoints ARE highly advanced game. That’s because so many men don’t know how to be polite, willing to hear the other side, and willing to have a conversation vs. some nitpicky debate where you shred a woman until she despises you. Incontrovertible scientific proof? Posts 38-49.

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  75. on March 20, 2008 at 5:54 pm Shannon

    It’s possible to disagree with someone WITHOUT being hostile and sarcastic, or, for that matter, condescending. If you respectfully disagree with her viewpoint, without belittling her or acting all superior, THAT’S treating someone as an equal. Really, guys, it’s not that complicated.

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  76. on March 20, 2008 at 6:22 pm rina

    Steve Johnson,

    Let’s say you like NASCAR and I think it’s bloody retarded. Your NASCAR obsession is illogical to me because you spend valuable time watching it and valuable money on its memorabilia. It’s also a god awful excuse for a sport. That’s how I truly feel about it.
    Now we’re dating. And I have to sit around and listen to you talk about NASCAR and wait for you to finish watching the races. I’m not going to respond to your every passionate word with “you’re an idiot” because I actually like you and don’t want to insult something you enjoy, because you’ve attached value to this thing.
    If you’re secure with yourself, you’ll realize that it doesn’t matter if I like NASCAR because it’s just a hobby you have. If you’re like my ex-boyfriend, you’ll think we have nothing in common because I’m not a fan.
    In reality, nothing we as humans say or do is really all that logical or rational. Men and women are very different in what we like and believe, so if you want to date a woman and treat her like an ‘equal’ just agree to disagree like two adults. If she’s smart she won’t push her hocus pocus on you, and if she’s not, then you should be the smart one and politely listen.

    It’s pretty simple.

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  77. on March 20, 2008 at 6:24 pm Usually Lurking

    These contradict the statement that men tend toward rationality.

    No, it doesn’t What it means is that some men are more rational than others. We can also assume that some women are more rational than others. When noticing sex differences, if there are any, is if we see significant differences between men and women.

    And, I feel confident in saying this, yes, there are obvious differences between men and women on this subject.

    Granted, I feel that the subject has been changed slightly. I was talking about Logic, and then followed the counter-points to Science. I am confident that Men, in general, are much more interested in Logic and Science.

    Astrology and astronomy were the same discipline (astrologia) that separated in the 17th century during the Age of Reason.

    For instance, after the split of Astronomy and Astrology I would be willing to bet big money that many more women are interested in Astology and many more men are interested in Astronomy.

    This particular commenting crowd might be more so, but that is no proof that most contemporary men think and behave this way as a whole.

    Again, there is a difference between “most men” and “mostly men”. If you are looking for proof that “most men” are logical, then, I will definitely back down from that one. But that we are equally logical, or even close to being equal is almost ridiculous to me.

    However, I feel it is important to note that I do not see that is a problem. Damn, if chicks were like guys, life would suck.

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  78. on March 20, 2008 at 2:28 pm Usually Lurking

    which is exactly what their hero told them NOT to do when interacting with women?

    No, he said to not be like that on a date. When you are trying to fuck some girl.

    These guys are not dating Rina.

    Men. So goal-oriented.

    If we weren’t, the Industrialized World would fall apart. Hell, it would cease to exist.

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  79. on March 20, 2008 at 6:39 pm Usually Lurking

    I am basically reiterating what Steve has already said, but, …

    And, in general, getting hostile and sarcastic, aka, treating a woman like she’s dumb, won’t do you any favors. Try a little respect.

    it is hard to respect someone, man or woman, when they take this stuff seriously. That is, it isn’t a source of fun for them. It isn’t some silly thing that they indulge because they enjoy the mystical.

    It has real meaning to them. As much meaning to them as basic science and logic has to others. Just think of how people reacted when they foudn out Nancy Reagan was using Astrology to help Ronnie make decisions (granted, from what I read, it was pretty inconsequential stuff).

    And Steve is right, the Guy wants to see the Girl as being intelligent. And those kinds of beliefs make that impossible. Granted, it might not stop him from “gaming” her.

    It’s possible to disagree with someone WITHOUT being hostile and sarcastic, or, for that matter, condescending.

    Personally, I am not defending condescending, or hostile, assholes, they deserve what they get.

    If you respectfully disagree with her viewpoint, without belittling her or acting all superior, THAT’S treating someone as an equal. Really, guys, it’s not that complicated.

    Again, that is the crux: “respectfully disagree”. It is easy for, say, two scientists to respectfully disagree with one another. Or, say two people with different, but well argued, political beliefs.

    This is different. Again, I am not talking about mistreating someone. But you can, obviously, treat someone as a human being and still have little respect for their childish beliefs.

    And I say childish because it is what it reminds me of. I find that these people often bristle against basic logic. I don’t mean that they disagree with you, but that they never even consider your (possibly) logical points because they hate that you brought logic into it in the first place.

    For instance, I have a couple of superstitions that I often follow. And they are just that, superstitions. They have absolutely no basis in logic. And whenever a friend sees me doing something like this, he will ask about it.

    And I will just give them that look. You know, “Ugh, don’t ask. I have no reason for it. I just do it. I have no good reason for doing so.”

    And it is OK. Nobody cares. Because I don’t take it too seriously, and I don’t expect anybody else to either.

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  80. on March 20, 2008 at 6:49 pm Usually Lurking

    Rina, again, that is very different than what we are talking about.

    NASCAR is a sport/competition. It is not a belief system. If he is watching it for enjoyment, that is absolutely harmless.

    If he is constantly talking to you about it, then, that is annoying. He should know better.

    If he collects a few die-cast cars, that is harmless.

    If he becomes sort of obsessed with getting everything associated with Dale Earnhardt, that is beyond annoying. He has basically erected for himself a new God.

    So, to bring this back to what we might experience on a date and how we might react, well,

    Her: So, any hobbies, pasttimes?
    Me: I like cooking, actually, I am sort of a food-nerd. And I like Football and Nascar.
    Her: That’s nice. Anything special you like to cook?

    (compared to)

    Her: So, any hobbies, pasttimes?
    Me: Well, my brother and I just got back Daytona. I can’t believe Kevin Harvick won. God, I hate that guy. Well, we will see him again at Talladega, and, man, I know that he will get his come-uppance
    Her: Uh-huh (get me the fuck outta here)

    ——————————————————–

    So, is Numerology fun for her? Of is it a part of her Spirituality?

    Her: “You know, I am very Spiritual”
    Me: Uh-huh

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  81. on March 20, 2008 at 2:50 pm Reggie

    #51 Shannon
    Does anyone else find it completely hilarious that the guys are jumping down Rina’s throat, nitpicking her, and arguing with her over every mundane detail…which is exactly what their hero told them NOT to do when interacting with women?

    I was waiting for someone to try and score a rhetorical point by pointing this out. But there’s a difference: We’re not trying to fuck you. We’re never going to meet you (or rina, or whoever) in person — hell, you could be a guy for all we know. There’s nothing at stake, so we can tell the truth.

    I dig astrology and numerology. I worked as a palm reader, even. No, I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job. I also think any guy who shreds me simply because he disagrees is going to get permanently locked out of my pants.

    We’re not shredding you because we disagree with you; we’re shredding you because you’re wrong and yet you persist in claiming it’s a difference of opinion rather than a matter of fact versus fiction. If you professed a deep belief in Santa Claus and maintained that it’s a valid belief, you’d get the same response. It’s fine if you want to dabble in astrology and that kind of stuff for fun, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s complete bullshit.

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  82. on March 20, 2008 at 7:09 pm rina

    Ugh!

    Okay, women have a lot of beliefs that don’t make sense to men. Let it go. We have entire spiritual lives that seem totally retarded to you. Accept it. We can believe it, and you don’t have to.

    I’ll tell you why I’m into it.
    Women have really strong gut feelings about things, but we cloud those feelings up with neuroses and ego. It’s like our gut says- that guy is an asshole! But our ego says, I want him to like me and our neuroses waver back and forth between the two. Lots of girls learn with age to leave their crazy behind and just see it like it is. When we do, our intuition (real) is was stronger than a guy’s.
    Girls can read social situations, faces, and places better than men. But we like to put a pretty bow on it and call it something mystical. It makes us saner, even if you think it’s actually more illogical.

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  83. on March 20, 2008 at 7:18 pm candy cane

    82 Rina

    “Women have really strong gut feelings about things, but we cloud those feelings up with neuroses and ego.”

    I think it’s more our survival instincts than neuroses and ego that clouds up those feelings. Instinct is so powerful. It tells to fuck some guy who then fucks with our heads and emotions leaving us to wonder why we ignored that wiser inner voice. It’s a case of human spirit vs human animal. I believe the more we choose human spirit, the more evolved and happy we will be, and more we can tell the jerks to “fuck themselves” from a position of strength and higher intentions as opposed to neuroses and ego.

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  84. on March 20, 2008 at 7:35 pm Hope

    I would be willing to bet big money that many more women are interested in Astology and many more men are interested in Astronomy.

    A lot of women are interested in astronomy, too (I was very much so when I was younger). Women receive higher average grades in school in every subject, including mathematics and science. But because these are culturally walled off as being “masculine,” American women do not want to pursue endeavors seen as rigorous, such as statistics or programming. Personal anecdote: I didn’t even think I could code until I began coding, and coding pretty damned well.

    It is also a matter of perception. People with IQs a few standard deviations above the norm are less populous, so men of above average intelligence (as you and johnny five appear to be) would find the vast majority of women you meet to be irrational, dull and uninteresting, just as a woman of above average intelligence would find most men to be so as well.

    My opinion is that this indicates the pitfalls of sociobiology — observable differences are not necessarily innate, but learned. For example, a psychology professor lectured in one of my college courses that for reasons of biology, women tend to find emotional infidelity more distressing. Yet there is evidence to the contrary. According to this article, most Chinese men found emotional infidelity more distressing, when this is something held by western academia to be jealousy evolved through female biology.

    —

    If our expectations of women (and men) are low to begin with, and we tell people they should overindulge their irrationality and lack of interest in science due to one excuse or another, then that is the kind of people we produce. Lowered expectations might work for a while, but ultimately the results are also lowered.

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  85. on March 20, 2008 at 7:43 pm candy cane

    ^ Actually rina, I take some of that back. We would be wise not to ignore the human animal side of our nature. Animals as pure instinct are beautiful and pure. Our animal/instinctual nature can be transformed to love and bliss, but keeping in mind that happens only BY WAY of our animal nature.

    The problem is most people (men especially) seem unable to feel above the waist when it comes to sex. “Transforming sexual energy”….just the words themselves….sends up their “bullshit” flags. Even though “energy” is one of the most scientifically studied phenomena on the planet. Sexual energy creates practically every thing in the natural world.

    There; I just either lost or pissed off half the audience. 🙂

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  86. on March 20, 2008 at 7:52 pm rina

    vagina” into “would you like to go out for a cup of coffee with me?”

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  87. on March 20, 2008 at 7:54 pm rina

    ha most of my comment was lost!

    anyway, enjoy that.

    i have to go meditate and balance my energies.

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  88. on March 20, 2008 at 7:57 pm Usually Lurking

    Okay, women have a lot of beliefs that don’t make sense to men. Let it go.

    Rina, a topic came up, we are disussing it.

    We have entire spiritual lives that seem totally retarded to you. Accept it.

    One of the points that has been made is that many Men do accept it. But that the repercussions of that acceptance do not bode well for the possible relationship.

    So, you might accept some new Man who tells you that the power of Crystals has changed his life.

    Well, you accept him. And, subsequently, you lost respect for him (I am not saying that this is the case, it is just a “for instance”). And that loss of respect helped end the relationship.

    Well, when Men are advised to simply listen with out giving a true or honest responce, that might be bad news for the Girl.

    The Guy did not mistreat her (assuming that it is not Johnny Five). And he listened. And he had sex with her. But he did not respect her intelligence and/or beliefs.

    So is “listening” the best thing to do? Well, maybe for the Young Man, but no so mcuh for the Young Woman.

    This is what makes this so interesting. People like Steve and myself are curious about the, possible, negative side effect.

    I’ll tell you why I’m into it.
    Women have really strong gut feelings about things, but we cloud those feelings up with neuroses and ego. It’s like our gut says- that guy is an asshole! But our ego says, I want him to like me and our neuroses waver back and forth between the two. Lots of girls learn with age to leave their crazy behind and just see it like it is. When we do, our intuition (real) is was stronger than a guy’s.

    And there is nothing wrong with any of this. Women, and Men, need to choose their path.

    But we like to put a pretty bow on it and call it something mystical.

    Again, this is the problem. Well, I can’t say that. I don’t know. It may, it may not. That is part of what we are discussing.

    If some girl say something like, “Yeah, I am kinda crazy. But, I think that I am handling it pretty well.”

    She sounds together. She is able to own up to certain short-comings. Attractive in all people.

    But, if she says, “Well, my Earth sign is rising right now, and in Pisces of all places. Got, this is going to be a hell of a month!”.

    Well, this guy is going to run for the hills. Unless he takes some “good” advice and just listens. Then, he has sex with her. But the comment had an effect on him. He lost respect for her.

    And who get’s hurt? My guess, she does.

    So, coming back to your original thought, “can guys accept this?” Absolutely. But is that the best thing? Would you want some guy to be accept and listen to your daughter or would you want him to be honest (though, not mean)?

    If you say, “honest”, then , what facilitates that?

    What advice do you give to your daughter?

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  89. on March 20, 2008 at 8:17 pm Usually Lurking

    A lot of women are interested in astronomy, too.

    True. And a lot of women are interested in Football. But the difference between the sexes is enormous.

    Women receive higher average grades in school in every subject, including mathematics and science.

    This is absolutely true. More girls graduate from HS, go to college, graduate from college, attend grad school and get masters degrees.

    Also, over the last 30 years, the number of girls in most sciences has skyrocketed.

    This is all absolutely true.

    And, yet, still, you see a discrepency in the “hard” sciences. Applied Mathematics, Physics, Engineering, Comp Sci, etc. All of these fields and majors continue to be dominated by men. Which is even more impressive when you think about the first list of facts that I listed (more girls in HS, college, masters, etc.)

    But because these are culturally walled off as being “masculine,” American women do not want to pursue endeavors seen as rigorous, such as statistics or programming. Personal anecdote: I didn’t even think I could code until I began coding, and coding pretty damned well.

    Well, since we are trading personal anecdotes. I went to one of the few universities that had an equal number of male and female Comp Sci majors. All of the guys, and I mean all of them, wanted to become programmers/soft. engineers. Of the girls, none of them did. I imagine that this was something of an outlier, but still.

    Of the guys that majored in Comp Sci, it was common for them to “tinker” with their machines (i.e. build from scratch, install new hard drives, etc.) I didn’t know a single girl that did this.

    To this day, you see very few girls “tinkering” with their cars (as another example). Exceptions aside, I don’t think that this is cultural, I think that it is natural and widespread.

    People with IQs a few standard deviations above the norm are less populous, so men of above average intelligence (as you and johnny five appear to be) would find the vast majority of women you meet to be irrational, dull and uninteresting, just as a woman of above average intelligence would find most men to be so as well.

    Well, I can’t speak for johnny, but I would not say that was my experience. I liked smart people, and tended to hang with them. So, in general, I met smart girls. But, even with the smart girls, they rarely gravitated to Math and Hard Science. And the ones that did were often lacking in “femininity”. And I am not trying to be cruel with that statement. More than a few of the guys lacked basic physical muscularity, even if there brains and personalities were hyper-masculine.

    My opinion is that this indicates the pitfalls of sociobiology …

    Well, I can’t speak to your Chinese example, but for at least 2 or 3 generations, Nature has been the dominant PC choice over Nurture in the Nature vs Nurture battle. And it is has only been, I think, the last 10-15 years where more and more evidence is pointing to Nature.

    That doesn’t mean we should bow down to Biological Determinism, but we should respect it and try to be more honest. Not you, but, well, you know the kind of people that I am talking about.

    If our expectations of women (and men) …

    Low expectations can be hurtful, but misguided expectations can be disastrous. Telling every young person that they can be anything they want is just ridiculous. Telling 5′ 4” Brian that he can be anything he wants (which is the normal practice), even the NBA star he always dreamed he would be, is not just ridiculous, but harmful.

    Assuming that he has many dreams, he should be helped in fulfilling some of the others. He doesn’t neccesarily need to follow what they say, but to think that they are being mean when their interest is in helping is bad for our culture, I think.

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  90. on March 20, 2008 at 8:20 pm Usually Lurking

    would you like to go out for a cup of coffee with me?

    Rina, that is a little forward of you, especially after calling me a vagina.

    Hopefully you will have thought better of it after balancing your energies.

    I think that we should just be friends.

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  91. on March 20, 2008 at 8:20 pm rina

    answer: if you’re into each other and esp if you’re in love, none of this matters.

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  92. on March 20, 2008 at 8:26 pm johnny five

    But so are you if you sit there and give her a diatribe about how this shit is totally stupid-

    nah, that’d be no fun.

    as i said before, i prefer gently mocking irony, devolving into outright sarcasm only if we’ve decided to hate each other (a situation that doesn’t necessarily preclude good sexual chemistry).

    i don’t waste time on diatribes with people who won’t understand them, so i prefer banter that’s enjoyable even if it’s tinged with derision.

    and no, i don’t have derision for all women, in case anyone feels like levelling such an accusation (see previous comments about ladylike ladies).

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  93. on March 20, 2008 at 8:29 pm johnny five

    The Guy did not mistreat her (assuming that it is not Johnny Five).

    huh?

    what qualifies as ‘mistreatment’ in your eyes?

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  94. on March 20, 2008 at 8:29 pm Usually Lurking

    answer: if you’re into each other and esp if you’re in love, none of this matters.

    True enough. But what about your future daughter. She has her mystical side. She is into having her Palm Read and really into Astrology.

    Do you hope that the next date she goes on that the guy will “listen” or that he will be honest?

    I understand that True Love will hopefully be on the horizon for her, but, until then, she will meet some guys along the way.

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  95. on March 20, 2008 at 8:32 pm Usually Lurking

    what qualifies as ‘mistreatment’ in your eyes?

    At least on of the girls had pegged you as someone who is condescending and hostile. I wanted to get past arguing that and talk about guys are are honest, without mistreatment. I just used you as the fall guy.

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  96. on March 20, 2008 at 8:40 pm Hope

    All of the guys, and I mean all of them, wanted to become programmers/soft. engineers. Of the girls, none of them did. I imagine that this was something of an outlier, but still. Of the guys that majored in Comp Sci, it was common for them to “tinker” with their machines (i.e. build from scratch, install new hard drives, etc.) I didn’t know a single girl that did this.

    I didn’t major in comp. sci. but I do programming work nonetheless. I also installed my own 56k modem when I was younger and they first came out, so again I think it’s a cultural — and subsequently self-imposed — discouragement rather than a biological discouragement.

    That doesn’t mean we should bow down to Biological Determinism, but we should respect it and try to be more honest.

    The things I’m talking about are hardly biological determinism. For example, there exists the stereotype that nerds can’t be athletic, so my husband didn’t exercise for a long time, but after he started he did just fine. Now he’s running 3 miles without stopping. Another example is the belief that older people can’t learn new things, but it’s been proven that adults can form new brain neuron connections. Intellectual laziness might be somewhat genetic, but even intelligent people fall prey to stereotyping and cultural conditioning.

    Low expectations can be hurtful, but misguided expectations can be disastrous. Telling every young person that they can be anything they want is just ridiculous.

    That’s not exactly the problem in most cases. More often than not, people are not fulfilling their potentials rather than topping out their maximum capabilities. Telling people they can be anything they want is very different from telling them they need to try harder instead of giving up.

    The problem here is often lack of education, wrongful steering and lax discipline. I doubt that most “geniuses” would be anywhere near their achieved levels of success if they weren’t pushed toward specific goals. It has to do with cost vs. reward. Most smart but good looking girls choose to just get by on their looks rather than develop their intellectual capacities, and they are rewarded far more by doing so.

    Then we get into a situation that men say women aren’t intelligent, but most men don’t want intelligent women — they want the hot ones regardless of their brain power. You see the tautological loop we’re in now.

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  97. on March 20, 2008 at 8:45 pm Usually Lurking

    you want to get laid, right?

    No doubt. But the implication from Shannon was that this was easy and simple politeness. And that anyone should know.

    But I, and a few others, see wider implications. Guys having se with girls who really believe this stuff. Having sex with someone they don’t respect.

    No skin off my back. But I am wondering if the girls are still all for it. Whether they really want guys to “listen” to these beliefs, or if they think that might not be the best thing for the girls.

    Personally, I think it is fine advice, but, then again, I am a guy.

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  98. on March 20, 2008 at 8:57 pm Shannon

    “Having sex with someone they don’t respect.”

    People believe stupid crap all the time, nobody’s perfect. Hell, I believe that little men live inside radios and that my laptop wants to kill me.

    Everyone’s got their little superstitions and quirks, and if we’re incessantly calling one another out over this stuff, the world will grind to a halt.

    How did we wind up on 40-plus posts on Astrology? This Scorpio-Scorpio rising (I’m like a Seven Layer Dip of Scorpio) wants to know.

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  99. on March 20, 2008 at 9:06 pm Usually Lurking

    I didn’t major in comp. sci. but I do programming work nonetheless. I also installed my own 56k modem when I was younger and they first came out, so again I think it’s a cultural — and subsequently self-imposed — discouragement rather than a biological discouragement.

    But, Hope, you are a sample size = 1. And, I really hope that this does not come out the wrong way, you are Asian. We do not need to look to hard to see the difference in ability towards Math and Tech when comparing Asians to, say, Blacks or Latinos.

    So you installed a 56k modem. Good for you. Really. But what did you see around you? How many Girls, and especially non-Asian girls, were doing things like that?

    How many guys were tinkering compared to girls? On anything? Cars, Tech, Software, Bottle Rockets, whatever.

    Damn, girls are encouraged to learn about their cars. That has been so since I was a kid and I am not that young.

    For example, there exists the stereotype that nerds can’t be athletic…

    Well, I would say that the stereotype is that they are not athletic, not that they can’t be. If more nerds hit the weight room, that sterotype could easily go away. You do not need to be athletic to lift weights, and, yet, I doubt we will see huge changes in the average muscularity of Linux developers.

    Ride a bike, go jogging, maybe. Squats and Deads, I doubt it.

    Also, the examples you give are fine ones. We usually love when we are able to break old contristing thoughts. It feels like we are advancing.

    But to simply deny Nature, and that is what PC did for so long, is just stupid and disastrous.

    That’s not exactly the problem in most cases. More often than not, people are not fulfilling their potentials rather than topping out their maximum capabilities. Telling people they can be anything they want is very different from telling them they need to try harder instead of giving up.

    OK, so maybe we are agreeing on this. I am not sure.

    But, what would you tell Brian. What would you tell Brian when he was 14 years old, and, looking at his family, you could see that it was unlikely that he would be of even average height.

    You can see that all he talks about is basketball. Do you prevent yourself from treating him with low-expectations? Or do you try to foster in him other dreams? And, explain to him the extreme unlikelihood that a short man has at making it to the NBA.

    I doubt that most “geniuses” would be anywhere near their achieved levels of success if they weren’t pushed toward specific goals.

    I don’t know abaout this one. Einstein was forbidden by his parents from getting a degree in Physics. Most people don’t know that. He got his Bachelors in Teaching. And that was it. While there, he was the only one in his class to not …oh well, maybe you have heard the stories with him.

    J.S. Bach, one of the all-time super-geniuses was forbidden by his brother from even SEEING certian sheet-music. He had to stay up at night after his brother (his guardian) had gone to bed to memorize them by candle-light.

    Heck, Mozart, encourage towards music, yes, but so was his sister. That got equal training. And, at that, most people tried to get mozart to stop writing music and take on more students. But, he wanted to compose.

    Pascal thought that Math was evil and actually forbade himself from doing it for a 20 year period during his adult years.

    Socrates was told by many, many people to shut and get a job.

    Damn, I could go on and on.

    I am not so sure about that one.

    Most smart but good looking girls choose to just get by on their looks rather than develop their intellectual capacities, and they are rewarded far more by doing so.

    And, you know, they are not respected for it. We often bring up the examples of people like Paris, Brittany and Lindsay as living the vacant life.

    I think that girls get many messages about getting a real education and making something of themselves. But, at the same time, they are told, “Just be yourself”, “Never care what anyone else thinks”, “Never be ashamed of who you are” and all of that other clap-trap.

    I think those pretty girls latch onto the set that most fits what they want.

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  100. on March 20, 2008 at 9:10 pm Usually Lurking

    Shannon, I think that you are avoiding the question. And that is your right.

    But, the question stands.

    Should the guy “listen”, or be honest?

    What would be best for your daughter?

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  101. on March 20, 2008 at 9:32 pm Hope

    How many guys were tinkering compared to girls? On anything? Cars, Tech, Software, Bottle Rockets, whatever.

    Maybe I knew a specific subset of girls, but I actually did meet a lot of women who were into technology, software, hardware installation, etc. The sample size of those who have over 120 IQ is small — less than 15% of the population. This is the part of nature you are conflating with the part that determines sex-based capabilities. More women fall into the middle range of IQs than genius-level IQs, so there are more men who are outliers (genius or retardation level). That does not somehow mean that women are inherently less logical or have less capacity for math and science than men.

    I don’t know abaout this one. Einstein was forbidden by his parents from getting a degree in Physics. […]

    The people you mentioned are outliers or super-geniuses who despite not much formal training could achieve great heights. But that is not the case for those who are not common household names. Most Nobel laureates, for example, work for years dedicated to their line or field of work. I am sure you know the difference between genius level vs. super high genius level IQs, so I won’t mention them here.

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  102. on March 20, 2008 at 9:45 pm Hope

    men have greater visual-spatial skill than women and women have more connections between the two hemispheres than do men. MRIs show that men and women recruit different parts of the brain for specific mental tasks.

    That is often-cited, but it does not contradict what I have written.

    Imaging studies assessing brain function support the notion that females perform better on tasks such as language processing that call on more symmetric activation of brain hemispheres, whereas males excel in tasks requiring activation of the visual cortex. Even when men and women perform the same task equally well, studies suggest they sometimes use different parts of their brain to accomplish it.

    There is also no single intellectual capacity that can make someone predestined for math and science. The fields of science, technology, math and engineering need a complex array of mental abilities, including communication, memory, quantitative skills, visualization, etc. The most mathematically gifted person I met in high school was a girl — yes, the sample size is small, but the sample size will be small whether you look at men or women who are naturally gifted for such tasks.

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  103. on March 20, 2008 at 9:49 pm Shannon

    Oh, for fuck’s sake:

    “Should the guy “listen”, or be honest?”

    While we’re engaging in wholesale gender stereotypes, would you tell your girlfriend, “Why, yes, you DO look fat in those jeans”? No. Not if you value your nuts.

    You can be honest, and tell someone you disagree, without being a jerk. Each of you say your piece, then, if you don’t come to an understanding, you decide to talk about something else.

    If someone has views that are abhorrent (racism, sexism, etc.) then yes, you should call them out, and you should try to change those views. But if what they believe doesn’t hurt anyone else, who cares?

    So, unless astrology killed your parents, drop it. Move on. If you really think she’s stupid for believing things you think are silly, don’t date her in the first place. Why is this so fucking hard to understand? How is this rocket science (which, supposedly, boys are better at anyway)?

    And now I want to start a band called Astrology Killed My Parents.

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  104. on March 20, 2008 at 10:38 pm clifton

    The saddest shit I ever saw was at a party where the single women were seriously outnumbered. All of a sudden three dateless ladies walk through the door, and four guys descended on them quickly. (I saw where this was going, so I stayed out of it.) Conversation developed between the seven of them, and they were talking about the most TRIVIAL topics. I think I remember hearing one of the chicks riffing on a “bunny hutch” for a few minutes. How stimulating.

    Anyway, the four horny men are trying to overimpress the ladies and outmaneuver each other. In the meantime, you could tell that these guys wouldn’t have been so interested if these ladies were ugly, married, or lesbians; that’s how corny the talk was. Yet they were reasonably attractive (in a quirky, thrift-shop, indie-rock-alternababe way); didn’t appear to have any husbands; and I’ll just guess that they dug men. And here’s these guys trying to get over.

    As best as I can tell, nobody got nothing from that encounter. I saw one guy try to get the digits and get shot down; another guy backed out when he saw too many dudes jockeying for position; I knew the remaining two guys and they definitely didn’t get anything out of it either (they told me).

    Moral: if you’re going to sit around at a party talking about lame subjects like bunny hutches and how great A Flock Of Seagulls were (this was only five or six years ago) with a girl, better make good and sure you’re gonna get some pussy or at least a tongue-kiss out of it. Nothing worse than sitting through some sorry conversation without some payoff. Ah, the games people play…

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  105. on March 20, 2008 at 11:22 pm clifton

    hey, if your bunny hutch tale gets you laid, more power to you!

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  106. on March 21, 2008 at 12:17 am Usually Lurking

    Maybe I knew a specific subset of girls, but I actually did meet a lot of women who were into technology, software, hardware installation, etc.

    Fine, so, you saw a lot of girls involved in these things. More than guys? Less?

    Also, you can obviously see outside of your social circle. What are you seeing there?

    In my neighborhood of over 2 dozen homes, I think that 2 couples had ever gotten divorced. But, I know that is not representative of society at large, I can keep my eyes open.

    That does not somehow mean that women are inherently less logical or have less capacity for math and science than men.

    I am not saying that. I said that with an equal number of male and female students in Comp Sci (and I bet that the girls got better grades), none of the girls and all of the guys wanted to go into programming.

    I am saying that I see more guys tinker witheir cars, computers, programs, etc. than girls.

    And I see these things for a reason. Even after decades of PC programming (“Anything a guy can do, a girl can do [if not better]”), we still see guys and girls choosing things.

    That is where this came from. After the split of Astrology and Astronomy, where do you see (more) guys and (more) girls.

    The people you mentioned are outliers or super-geniuses who despite not much formal training could achieve great heights. But that is not the case for those who are not common household names.

    Hey, you said “geniuses”. So, I cited geniuses. I thought I was being a good boy.

    And, I am sticking to my point about geniuses. You are now mentioning Nobel Laureates. But, most Nobel Laureates are not considered geniuses. A few are, but definitely not the majority. Very High Achievers, but not Geniuses.

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  107. on March 20, 2008 at 8:36 pm editor

    let’s not get ensnared in the trivially true. of course astrology et al are illogical but what does it gain a man to bop his date over the head with that fact? bombastic intellectual preening? you want to get laid, right?

    it’s fun to talk about stupid stuff sometimes. it’ll be no skin off your nose if you indulge the mystical occasionally. read her palm. talk about ancient ruins with shadowy powers. discuss whether her sign is sexually compatible with yours. if it really bothers you, do it all with a knowing inner smirk. remember, she might be in on it too.

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  108. on March 21, 2008 at 1:32 am Usually Lurking

    I feel it’s a very simple concept …

    The concept is not hard, and I understood the first time.

    But, the question is not hard either. I now feel as if I am being rude, but, it still stands.

    But, you keep attempting to change my question.

    And as for whether I want a man to go off on me (or an imaginary daughter) about personal beliefs, no.

    You know that I never said that. You know that I am not talking about some guy “going off”. It is a date. People are getting to know one another. Your daughter is trying to weed the good from the bad.

    And many, many guys find a true belief in Astrology just stupid. And it is very possible to express that thought without “going off”. I mean she is revealing something somewhat important about herself. I think that it would be nice, proper even, for him to reveal his beliefs.

    But, that could really hurt his chances of fucking her. And, again, this is a guy. Even a Good Guy. A Good Guy with a very healthy sexual appetite.

    So, he decides to lets his lack of respect for your daughter’s beliefs, slide, and he sits back and listens. And then has sex with her.

    In neither scenario was he mean with her. Nor was he picking a fight.

    But, in the one scenario, he decided since it was early on in the “relationship”, he thought, well, “this is the fun part”. So, he fucks her.

    And, Shannon, no one ever said that keeping your mouth shut was condescending.

    We were responding to the idea that since she is a girl, and they have these kinds of beliefs, then we should be quiet about it.

    It is that we should be quiet becuase, well, she is a girl. That is condescending.

    And, it was contrasted with the idea of being honest, that is, assuming that she was fairly logical about these things.

    I keep coming back to this question for a reason. I think that the one line of though facilitates “Pump and Dumps” while the other facilitates Honesty.

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  109. on March 20, 2008 at 9:36 pm editor

    That does not somehow mean that women are inherently less logical or have less capacity for math and science than men.

    actually, there are cognitive differences between men and women that go beyond variance at the tails. men have greater visual-spatial skill than women and women have more connections between the two hemispheres than do men. MRIs show that men and women recruit different parts of the brain for specific mental tasks.

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  110. on March 21, 2008 at 2:08 am Shannon

    UL, I haven’t been trying to change your question, I feel like I’ve been answering it over and over in a thousand permutations. It’s giving me a headache, so I’m hereby sick of it. For one last time:

    If Guy thinks Girl’s beliefs are dumb, Guy can respectfully disagree if he wants (“I don’t think there’s a scientific basis, but I’d like to hear why you’re so into it”), but if she refuses to argue or gets offended, then he should be a gentleman and change the subject. She may even concede that she’s silly, but she believes what she wants, as is her right.

    Dating allows you to test out your compatibility and belief systems. If two people’s worldviews are that divergent, then they should not be pursuing a relationship and/or sleeping together. Astrology Girl can go out there and find herself an Astrology Boy, and the Science Boy can go find somebody more compatible as well.

    Parallel: Lots of guys are Creationists. I think Creationism is dumb and simply not true. If I go on a date and the guy says the Earth is 10,000 years old, I’ll chime in and say I disagree. But I won’t let it turn into some nerdy debate, because it’s boring and annoying. Ultimately, I would decide that if this guy and I have such different beliefs, we are not compatible, and therefore should no longer date. And I wouldn’t sleep with him.

    As for “pump and dump” I feel I covered that by saying that if you don’t respect a woman, don’t fuck her.

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  111. on March 20, 2008 at 10:10 pm editor

    There is also no single intellectual capacity that can make someone predestined for math and science.

    no, but that is a truism if you define intellectual capacity in the most limited terms. my response does indeed contradict what you wrote because in fact studies have shown that men *on average* are better at manipulating 3D objects in mental space. this is not a variance at the tails issue, and it explains why men are a little bit better at math — especially advanced math — than women.

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  112. on March 21, 2008 at 3:04 am johnny five

    i never meant to touch off such a whirlwind of discussion.

    basically, it rests at this: i am a total WYSIWYG type of guy, honest to a fault (where the ‘fault’ in question does, indeed, create the occasional earthquake).

    fortunately (and indispensably, for a WYSIWYG type), i am also comfortable with occasionally pissing off people who are unimportant in my life. honesty, with a sprinkle of abruptness, is a nice way to filter out people with whom i’m not compatible anyway – with much less waste of time and effort on either of our part. the people left standing are invariably like-minded, loyal, intelligent, and intriguing.

    let it be said that, while i’m often intellectually hostile, i don’t engage in ad-hominem attacks; i always separate the bullshit from the bullshitter, thereby preserving the respect (if not necessarily the goodwill) of everyone involved.

    IMPORTANT POINT that has not been mentioned here: In relationships, women appreciate a man who calls them on bullshit. perhaps this is more evolutionary psychology, but women tend to get carried away more often than do men, and sensible women do appreciate a man who will bring them back to reality. — pout as they might at the time, most wives/girlfriends would have much more respect for the man who calmly, rationally, describes why a fat diamond ring is a waste while still acknowledging her desire for it than for the man who just opens up his wallet, says yes ma’am, and buys it. similarly, more respect for the man who blows away her smokescreens about this-or-that relative, coworker, or friend and reveals that he/she is actually a mean-spirited nuisance than for the man who smiles and tries to get along with everyone she thinks is her friend.

    in turn, i have much more respect, and even attraction, for a woman who can tell me when and why i’m wrong than for a doormat.

    crocker’s rules + golden rule = excellent way to live.

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  113. on March 21, 2008 at 3:12 am johnny five

    Astrology Girl can go out there and find herself an Astrology Boy, and the Science Boy can go find somebody more compatible as well.

    not possible, unless you accept that there are roughly equal numbers of AG’s and AB’s (and of SB’s and SG’s) – clearly a ridiculous premise.

    the system of inequalities AG > AB and SG <<< SB, along with many other similar inequalities, underlies the perpetual struggle endured by heterosexual people looking for ‘compatibility’. do you have any idea how fast scientifically minded girls get snapped up (provided they’re not physically repulsive)?

    in fact, i would gladly go on a date with any reasonably attractive girl who would phrase social phenomena in terms of inequalities, as i’ve done above. but, for such girls, supply <<< demand.

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  114. on March 21, 2008 at 12:32 am Usually Lurking


    Oh, for fuck’s sake

    Oh Shannon, calm down. If you do not want to dicuss the subject, that is fine. But that is what we are doing. I feel that I am making valid points and I am certainly not throwing bombs or being disrespectful.

    I find this stuff fascinating, and important. I believe that they have real implications, which is why I pursued that particular point.

    While we’re engaging in wholesale gender stereotypes

    I was doing no such thing. The advice then accepted by others was to “listen” and basically be a little dishonest. That is, if she expresses a belief in Astrology, and you think that is retarded, then you should simply sit back and “listen”.

    And I was really curious to know if women think that this really is the best thing for them.

    You can be honest, and tell someone you disagree…

    Yes, I can do anything I want. But that is not the subject. The advice was to NOT do that. But, rather, to simply “listen” regardless of what you thought about her beliefs.

    So, unless astrology killed your parents, drop it.

    Yes, sir. I think it is time that I got back in line.

    If you really think she’s stupid for believing things you think are silly, don’t date her in the first place.

    According to this example, we are finding out things about the other on the date. And, the advice is, “if you want to get laid, just listen, regardless of what you think about her beliefs”.

    Why is this so fucking hard to understand?

    Shannon, I was glad to respond to all of your points. And I felt that I did so with respect. Is it possible that I did not perfectly understand exactly what you were trying to say? Of course.

    But, do I deserve this?

    And, still, the question goes unanswered.

    Knowing a guy is very interested in sex, and assuming that your daughter has a certian amount of belief in things like Numerology and Astrology, should the guy simply “listen” or be more honest about what he thinks about her?

    What is best for your, or any daughter?

    LikeLike


  115. on March 21, 2008 at 1:00 am Shannon

    UL, I swear nearly constantly. A sailor once told me to zip it (true story). So when I curse a blue streak, it is not intended as insult. The “wholesale gender stereotypes” comment was directed at those debating whether girls are Teen Talk Barbie, as in, “math class is hard!” Every post here eventually devolves into either whether girls can do math, or the merits of pubic hair.

    Here’s where I get exasperated: I feel it’s a very simple concept and I have no idea how it all got so impossibly unclear. Please allow me to break it down, and, if I am repeating myself, sorry:

    If a woman believes something you think is silly, yes, you can call her on it. If she declines to discuss it, don’t, as he put it, “bop her over the head with it.” Change the subject like someone who was raised proper. Keeping a conversation moving is a key skill in life. Kicking off an endless nitpicky debate is just going to bore her to death and/or make her feel attacked. If you decide she is, in fact, hopelessly silly and not worthy of your respect, don’t ask her out again. If you don’t respect her, for the love of God don’t fuck her.

    He and I agree, sort of, but for different reasons (feel free to step in if I am misintrepreting). He would like to get laid, keeping your trap shut helps get you laid. I think beating people over the head about their beliefs (again, unless they’re morally abhorrent) is disrespectful and shows poor conversational skills. So we both err on the side of live-and-let-live, but my reasons are based in superego and his are in the id.

    And as for whether I want a man to go off on me (or an imaginary daughter) about personal beliefs, no. It is simply not polite to pick apart the beliefs of someone you have just met. I strongly disagree that it’s condescension to keep your trap shut – not everything needs to be up for debate. Especially in the early hangout phase of dating. That’s supposed to be the fun part! In the end, there is nothing “respectful” or “honest” about poor conversation skills.

    Finally, I had to date a few jerks to recognize the good guys, and I’m sure if I have a daughter she would need to do the same. Love is something you learn the hard way.

    LikeLike


  116. on March 21, 2008 at 7:11 am Hope

    And, I am sticking to my point about geniuses. You are now mentioning Nobel Laureates. But, most Nobel Laureates are not considered geniuses. A few are, but definitely not the majority. Very High Achievers, but not Geniuses.

    That was given as an example, as many Nobel Laureates are considered “geniuses.” Read this article, which cites a roundup of IQ studies from Cambridge University Press:

    In one study of adult graduates of New York City’s Hunter College Elementary School, where an admission criterion was an IQ of at least 130, researchers found most had average lives, with few achieving an extreme accomplishment.

    The Cambridge studies show that people who have become internationally successful invariably worked with a mentor who has been at that level.

    “Ability doesn’t seem to have anything to do with it,” Ericcson says. “You need to accumulate your experience. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you’re out playing tennis and you miss an overhand volley, the game will go on. The next time the identical situation happens, you’re not going to be more successful. In order to improve, you need a special training environment where a mentor will give you appropriate shots.”

    That is where this came from. After the split of Astrology and Astronomy, where do you see (more) guys and (more) girls.

    Even though a lot of people don’t fully “believe” in astrology, they know their sun signs, much like how I don’t believe in Jesus but know various practices of Christianity, passages from the Bible, etc.

    The power of these systems lies not in their absolute truth but their repetition. I suspect that there are more guys who know their astrological sign than there are guys who know the ins and outs of prominent scientific theories.

    Even after decades of PC programming (”Anything a guy can do, a girl can do [if not better]”), we still see guys and girls choosing things.

    As soon as Asian females were exposed to computer and console games they started playing them like crazy. In South Korea, Japan and China they play video games in droves, and not the Sims variety. If choice is dictated by biology then wouldn’t they not go for such things that only “nerdy” American men choose?

    Again, I can only speak from experience that the Chinese education system forces girls to be on a higher math and science level than the American system, and as a result most of them can outdo American boys (whom you say are more logical) in hard math and science. Though one could argue that Asian females are simply biologically different than white females, aren’t they still female?

    LikeLike


  117. on March 21, 2008 at 11:59 am Shannon

    “not possible, unless you accept that there are roughly equal numbers of AG’s and AB’s (and of SB’s and SG’s) – clearly a ridiculous premise.”

    You’re getting hung up on a detail here, Johnny Five. I’m talking about using dating to ascertain compatibility, not about gender breakdowns and numbers of who’s into astrology. Forest/trees, y’know.

    LikeLike


  118. on March 21, 2008 at 1:26 pm Usually Lurking

    If Guy thinks Girl’s beliefs are dumb, Guy can respectfully disagree if he wants (”I don’t think there’s a scientific basis, but I’d like to hear why you’re so into it”), but if she refuses to argue or gets offended, then he should be a gentleman and change the subject.

    Shannon, you keep changing the guy in the scenario. I am talking about a regular guy with a raging Sex Drive. You keep talking about some mythical gentleman.

    This is why the question keeps getting asked.

    I am not talking about some PUA. I am not talking about some Asshole/Alpha. I am talking about a regular guy who understands that being honest and upfront can hurt his chances. So, he sits back and listens and thinks, “One more girl that believes in Astrology. But damn i she hot! Ah, no big deal. She can talk about it all she wants. I just can’t wait till we get back to my place.”

    So, no, you have never answered the question. You keep changing the guy and chaning how he thinks. And I think that you will keep trying to make my version of this Ordinary Guy into a bad person. Which he is not.

    He is just a normal guy, with a sense of logic and raging hormones.

    If two people’s worldviews are that divergent, then they should not be pursuing a relationship and/or sleeping together.

    You are talking about what you think should happen. That is Utopian or idealist. And I ain’t knockin’ it, but, either way, it is not our current reality. And it has not been that for a long time. Possibly ever.

    And I wouldn’t sleep with him.

    Again, you are not a guy. We are significantly different.

    So, again, a guy could go on a date with your daughter, find out that she is a Creationist, find her beliefs to be “silly” and “untrue” and still want to have sex with this smokin’ hot girl.

    Again, he is a normal guy.

    As for “pump and dump” I feel I covered that by saying that if you don’t respect a woman, don’t fuck her.

    That is some nice advice. How effective do you think it has been? How effectve do you think it will be? Seeing yet another generation of young men being taught that, what are the prospects for your daughter?

    There are platitudes and there are biological urges…we tend to follow the one of the other.

    LikeLike


  119. on March 21, 2008 at 1:47 pm Shannon

    UL, I am really seriously sick of this conversation. You are asking me to think like this “ordinary” man you’ve created, then getting on my case when I don’t get it exactly right.

    For a moment, pretend you’re a 31-year-old female administrative assistant. So, pretend you’re me. OOOH, no, you got that wrong! That too! And that, and that, and that! So, answer this same question over and over, but I’m going to tell you that you haven’t really answered it. But, oh, you’re still getting it wrong! How can you NOT think like a 31-year-old woman?

    Oh, wait, because you aren’t one. Stop asking me to think like someone I’m not, then jumping down my throat when I get shit “wrong.”

    PS – yes, I’m an idealist. I’ve never pretended otherwise, so, again, you’re demanding that I be someone I’m not, then, when I indulge you and give the question a try, you’re hounding me further. Frankly, you’re being a pest.

    LikeLike


  120. on March 21, 2008 at 1:50 pm Usually Lurking

    Shannon, I want to say that I am not pushing on this to be an asshole. This is not some need to be right. To force your hand.

    Ideas have consequences. And I think that some things go unnoticed. Like, the likely consequences of guys learning to “listen”. Which is really advice that he keeps his mouth shut. To keep his mouth shut so that he will get laid.

    This advice, to “listen”, sounds nice to many girls, but I am not sure that it is what they ultimately want. Or, better put, it might not be what produces the best results for them.

    And you can come back with, “well guys should act like this” and “guys should act like that”.

    But there is always a big difference between how we might act and how we will likely act. This goes for guys and girls.

    So, that is why I ask. And keep asking. I don’t want to know what the “gentleman” should do. I want to know what a guy should do? And, more importantly, how your daughter will be affected by his likely decision. (And, then, what is ultimately best for her).

    LikeLike


  121. on March 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm Shannon

    Also, the answer I provided was what I would want for me/my daughter, and there’s nothing wrong with hoping that the guy would be a gentleman, even if that wasn’t what he wanted to do. It’s entirely possible to have a raging sex drive AND be gentlemanly and able to behave properly on a date.

    LikeLike


  122. on March 21, 2008 at 1:52 pm Shannon

    UL, the guy should try to be a gentleman, even if his hormones are screaming otherwise. I think we could all aspire to be better people. So please stop hounding me. It’s rude.

    LikeLike


  123. on March 21, 2008 at 2:03 pm Shannon

    UL, I think an apology would be in order here. I’ve indulged your incessant and annoying question to the best of my ability, because it seems so important to you. Then, when I answer your question, again, TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, you blabber about utopianism and how I’m wrong and don’t understand men.

    You’re asking me to pretend to be someone I’m not (a man), then you’re getting on my case because I’m not perfectly emulating some guy that apparently only YOU can get right. So there’s no way I can ever answer this question to your satisfaction, because apparently only you have the answer.

    So what’s the answer? Do I get a gold star? How about an A for effort? And, yes, I would like an apology. You’ve been rude.

    LikeLike


  124. on March 21, 2008 at 2:11 pm Usually Lurking


    You are asking me to think like this “ordinary” man you’ve created, then getting on my case when I don’t get it exactly right.

    No, I am just expecting you to accept basic himan nature. You do not need to think like some thug to stop your daughter from walking alone, at night, on some dark and desolate street.

    For a moment, pretend you’re a 31-year-old female administrative assistant. So, pretend you’re me. OOOH, no, you got that wrong! That too! And that, and that, and that! So, answer this same question over and over, but I’m going to tell you that you haven’t really answered it. But, oh, you’re still getting it wrong! How can you NOT think like a 31-year-old woman?

    Shannon, you know that I did not do that. I am simply asking you to accept a guy as a guy. People do this everyday.

    When you find out that some guy has a collection of pron on his computer, knowing that you and none of your girlfriends do, you do not get surprised by this. You don’t neccesarily like it, but you accept it.

    We do not need to be Phd students in Human Sexuality to see and accept the basic differences between guys and girls.

    And your idealism will never let you go down that dark and desolate alley way. Never. Acceptance of basic, observable life will prevent you from doing so.

    So, since I am obviously a pest and not someone who is interested in intelligent discussions, I will finish with this:

    Your daughter is much more likely to get pumped and dumped by the very guys that learn to “listen”. The guys who might have been honest about who they are and what they believe will learn to keep their mouth shut. And they will fuck her.

    And this is not good for society.

    Girls are being lied to. It seemed like a wide-open world when this PC dogma started to emanate 40 years ago. But the effects have been terrible. And, now, right now, girls are much worse off because of it.

    So, I am a pest. Someone who made unreasonable demands of you. And this pest has a genuine interest in our future and what it means for our society and culture.

    And, the Pump and Dumpers are winning.

    Idealism is a great thing…as long as you work towards it. But to simply say, “well, this is how we should live” without some basic acceptance of Human Nature (and Mother Nature) is not idealism, but wishful thinking. And wishful thinking will never help your daughter.

    LikeLike


  125. on March 21, 2008 at 2:15 pm Usually Lurking

    It’s entirely possible to have a raging sex drive AND be gentlemanly and able to behave properly on a date.

    He is behaving properly. Just not by your definition of “proper”.

    Shannon, remember, “always be yourself”, “never care what anyone else thinks”, and, my favorite, “never be ashamed of who you are”.

    You want men to act like gentlemen. I think that is great. I really do. But it has not been that way for a while. And it went away for a reason.

    But hoping and wanting a man to act a certian way is no more help than wanting a woman to act a certian way.

    We need to deal with what is actually happening. Then, from there, work to improve society.

    LikeLike


  126. on March 21, 2008 at 2:16 pm Shannon

    You asked me what a guy SHOULD do, and I gave a response. Briefly say you disagree, move on, if you think she’s bloody stupid, don’t take her out again. Don’t turn a date into a debate. Free yourself up to meet someone else. There’s a middle ground between arguing with a date and simply listening in order to get in her pants.

    How that’s pie-in-the-sky idealism, and not common sense, I haven’t a clue.

    LikeLike


  127. on March 21, 2008 at 2:23 pm Usually Lurking



    UL, I think an apology would be in order here. I’ve indulged your incessant and annoying question to the best of my ability, because it seems so important to you. Then, when I answer your question, again, TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, you blabber about utopianism and how I’m wrong and don’t understand men.

    You’re asking me to pretend to be someone I’m not (a man), then you’re getting on my case because I’m not perfectly emulating some guy that apparently only YOU can get right. So there’s no way I can ever answer this question to your satisfaction, because apparently only you have the answer.

    So what’s the answer? Do I get a gold star? How about an A for effort? And, yes, I would like an apology. You’ve been rude.

    Shannon, you never, ever answered my very, very, very simply question.

    You keep talking about how you a man should act.

    I have made it extremely clear that the questions expects you to accept common human behavior. Whatever answer you give to that question, will be fine.

    So, lastly, am I expecting you to morph into some 25 year old guy? No

    Am I expecting you to think like someone else? No

    Am I expecting you to change your ideals? No

    Am I expecting you to have some simple acceptance of basic observable human behavior? The kind of acceptance you have in almost all of your other actions? Absolutely.

    LikeLike


  128. on March 21, 2008 at 2:33 pm Usually Lurking

    “if you think she’s bloody stupid, don’t take her out again.”

    Who cares, she is hot. I mean, ya’ know, she is a chick. Who cares if she believes in Astrology.

    LikeLike


  129. on March 21, 2008 at 2:42 pm Sean

    “European – Liked to smoke after morning sex.

    American – Liked to talk about what we’re “going to do today” after morning sex. (this one’s a wash)”

    So true. He’re what I do…..

    I state exactly what I’M going to do, when I’ll be done, and when we can get together again for more sex.

    LikeLike


  130. on March 21, 2008 at 2:43 pm Sean

    Damn slow computer….wrong thread

    LikeLike


  131. on March 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm Shannon

    UL, I did my best to answer your question as I understood it, it apparently wasn’t good enough. And yet you continue to hound me.

    I’m done answering, re-answering, re-permutating, blah blah blah. Every time I try, I’m apparently dumb or hopeless idealist. I’d like an apology for your pestering me (it’s very insulting), then I’d like to just agree to disagree, and for the love of all that is holy, move on.

    LikeLike


  132. on March 21, 2008 at 4:04 pm Usually Lurking

    And yet you continue to hound me.

    My intent was not to hound. Etiquette on the ‘Net is not the same as if this were happening in person. There is no reading of faces and, well, in this instance, nobody else stepped in to say if anyone was being rude.

    You thought that your concept was very simple. I thought my question was very simple.

    But, I guess it must end.

    And, Shannon, no one forced you to talk. We choose to come here. I asked a question. Then asked it again and again. And we can not agree to disagree, because, well, damn, you never answered the question.

    And girls will continue to be listened to, and they will continue to be pumped and dumped.

    And I really think that is sad. And it doesn’t need to be that way. They could be taught different lessons.

    LikeLike


  133. on March 21, 2008 at 4:16 pm Hope

    And girls will continue to be listened to, and they will continue to be pumped and dumped.

    And I really think that is sad. And it doesn’t need to be that way. They could be taught different lessons.

    This is kind of ironic given what you just wrote on the assholes thread, implying that you should have been more of an asshole in order to do more pumping and dumping yourself.

    Or would you only use the asshole behavior for good purposes?

    LikeLike


  134. on March 21, 2008 at 4:18 pm Shannon

    I don’t need validation from others to know that someone is being an ass. Rude is rude, in person or the Internet.

    Repeatedly bugging someone who is trying her damndest to indulge you and answer to the best of her ability (whether or not the question itself got bungled or misintrepreted) is rude by any measure. So, whether or not you INTEND to be rude, you are, in fact, being rude.

    It’s fucking exasperating, that’s what it is.

    LikeLike


  135. on March 21, 2008 at 4:19 pm Shannon

    In other words, UL, I busted my ass and tried, and you’re being ungrateful and more than a little whiny.

    LikeLike


  136. on March 22, 2008 at 2:24 am Steve Johnson

    Hope:

    This is kind of ironic given what you just wrote on the assholes thread, implying that you should have been more of an asshole in order to do more pumping and dumping yourself.

    It’s actually completely consistent. UL sees what works but doesn’t want to act like that. Oh, and he’s angry he’s been lied to about how to get a woman (“be nice” “be yourself” “buy her flowers” “don’t pressure her for sex, she doesn’t want to be treated like an object”, etc.).

    Anyway, the problem that I’m pointing out is that the game works like this:

    The less respect you have for women and the lower your expectations of her logic and reason, the more pussy you get. Since men’s interactions with women are mainly intended to get pussy, if disrespect works, disrespect is what women will get. “Nice guys”, i.e., dads, not cads, get shut out.

    No big thing, smart natural dad types can play the cad (learning how is part of the purpose of this blog).

    …then they complain about it on the internet.

    LikeLike


  137. on March 22, 2008 at 4:01 am candy cane

    137 Steve

    “The less respect you have for women and the lower your expectations of her logic and reason, the more pussy you get. Since men’s interactions with women are mainly intended to get pussy, if disrespect works, disrespect is what women will get. “Nice guys”, i.e., dads, not cads, get shut out.”

    Ahem. Is ALL you want pussy? Playing on women’s masochistic tendencies by “pretending” to be a sadistic asshole makes you an asshole. Is it worth pussy to be an asshole or do you believe that magically one day “the one” will waltz into your life and remove all the assholeness from it?

    You’ll be one of those on their death beds pointing at some woman, saying “It’s all your fault! It’s all your fault that I wasted my life being an asshole because that’s what I had to do to get pussy!” 😛

    LikeLike


  138. on March 22, 2008 at 8:33 am candy cane

    The top 3 things I learned from my most significant ex’s.

    1. A breathing technique that 100% quells anxiety.
    *2. A chant that cured me of a disease (that he used to get ME).
    3. Turn clothes inside out before you wash them and won’t fade as
    fast.

    *Chants are just mental-meditative focusing techniques that clear your mind of interfering chatter and bring forth what you want.

    LikeLike


  139. on July 31, 2009 at 9:27 am Starbuck

    Number 1 element of a true ladies man.

    “Detach yourself from the outcome.”

    Very simply put, pressure isn’t sexy.

    Be playful. Never lose the little boy inside. And if you can learn to bring out the little girl in women, you may not score every time (and who would want too?), but you will endear yourself to her.

    And the number 1 result of all that?

    Women make great friends.

    And before all you ladies start chasing me around? I’m married. What did you expect? lol

    LikeLike


  140. on May 3, 2010 at 10:47 am Curiosity, Women And Game « Citizen Renegade

    […] Learn to LISTEN. Women LOVE LOVE LOVE men who actually listen to them. Listening intently to a woman will make you seem like a curious man, especially as it gives you valuable information to tailor your game. Note that listening is not quite the same thing as paying strict attention. It’s perfectly acceptable to nod your head and mutter a few uh huhs while she speaks as your mind drifts to wondering about the size of her areolae, as long as you commit to memory at least a couple of her points. You only need to remember a few key words with which to feed back to a girl to wow her as a man who “gets it”. […]

    LikeLike


  141. on June 15, 2010 at 12:01 pm Women Don’t Want You To Remember Everything About Them « Citizen Renegade

    […] I’ve written before how poor listening is many men’s downfall in the comfort building stage of seduction, but as game is an art as well as science, there are qualifications to some rules. Reciting a girl’s important historical and cultural moments back to her as if she were a history book you studied for a test is going to make you sound like you are trying to impress her, which is a tingle killer if ever there was one. The key to correctly impressing women is to seem like you’re not impressing them at all. Even better is to seem like she is there to impress you, while still saying and doing those things that will subconsciously impress her. The girl above will wonder (all wondering performed in the primitive hidden recesses of the hindbrain of course) if the man has any life at all if he can so clearly remember the name of the company and the date and time of a charity event that some random girl he met just once before had mentioned to him. […]

    LikeLike



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