What is challenging for one man may not be so difficult for another. A virgin might think that getting his first lay is the pinnacle of achievement, but to a singer in an indie band with excellent emoting skills getting laid is an afterthought. There are some challenges however that are difficult to accomplish for almost all men.
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Converting a lesbian
Not a bisexual girl. Those are a dime a dozen. I mean committed lesbians; the ones who have never been pierced by man love and know as much about cabinet resurfacing as Bob Vila. Turn a decent-looking scissor sister into a traitor to her orientation even for one night and you will have earned the respect of your peers. Bonus points if you pick her up at a Vagina Monologues show.
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Threesome
Yeah, it’s cliched, but that doesn’t change the fact that despite the braggadocio of countless pornstars in their own minds this accomplishment is pretty rare. If the average American man has seven lifetime partners it’s a safe bet that he didn’t blow the bulk of his lifetime wad on three nights with six different women. Pull a threesome and your name will echo throughout the realms. Film it and it will echo throughout YouPorn.
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Having sex with a religious girl in a place of worship
Sure, repressed Catholic girls will hike their skirts in the back seat of a car under the watchful eye of St. Christopher, but try and get her to renounce her chaste ways in an empty church pew or in the rectory while a six foot tall crucifix gives her the stink eye. Ditto for other religions. Ever bang a Jewish girl in a temple? A Buddhist in a monastery? Or… wait for it… a non-Americanized Muslim girl in a mosque? You do the last and manage to avoid decapitation your name will be legend and spoken of in hushed tones around campfires and at men’s retreats.
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Staying in love
Falling in love is nothing special. People do it all the time. Staying in love, and having it reciprocated just as strongly, is another trick altogether. Don’t listen to the rainbows and unicorns brigade; the world is not awash in a field of love consciousness. It is instead awash in fear, hatred, anger, jealousy, duplicity, lust, ego… and occasionally love. There is a reason so many people yearn for the life-giving power of requited love and that is because it is so rare. Stay in love with a girl who loves you back and you will secretly be hated by everyone. Kind of like lottery winners.
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Having sex with a girl who is already in love with another man
Why is this so hard? See above. As extraordinary as deep long-lasting love is, seducing a girl in such a state away from the object of her love for an illicit tryst is rarer still. Even the best players advocate learning to recognize the signs of a girl in love with her boyfriend and moving on to more pliable targets. A girl in love gives off a vibe that screams “I don’t even notice other guys”. Try and overcome *that* bitch shield. This is the Holy Grail of male challenges, and if you accept this challenge and succeed your name becomes a powerful symbol of evil in the world, scribbled in angry lettering on the back of notebooks by ostracized goth kids in high schools everywhere.
The weird thing is that no matter how much I know I still have so much to learn, but in 3 years I will rule vengeance the likes this world has not seen before.
I’m working on the first challange
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I’ve never known much about being a player, but I spent my first 3 years in college exclusively targeting girls deeply in love with their boyfriends. While difficult, the perks are enormous.
First, I never liked my encounters to be discussed, and you can count on the girl in love to keep her mouth shut so that her boyfriend never finds out. No chance someone you hardly know but can’t stand is going to walk up with, “Heard you banged *** last week!”
Second, there’s no worry about her getting attached or expecting more out of you. Once she walks out that door, you’ll never hear from her again. She’ll even pretend not to know you in public.
Finally, it seems to bring out the animal in them. I suspect it’s the fact that they already feel guilty about what they’re doing that they decide to make the encounter as raunchy and porno-like as possible. Maybe it’s because they’re just trying to mix it up. Who knows, and who really cares?
Ultimately, I preferred them because I want what I “can’t” have.
You’re right though: they’re much tougher to score. However, I realized along the way that EVERY relationship has something missing and if you can exploit that, you’re home free. The trick is to never acknowledge the developing tension between the two of you. Never rag on or even mention the boyfriend. Just be an example of what’s missing and be fairly focused about it. Tricky, but it can be done more often than you might think.
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None of these challenges are worth pursuing except staying in love and as long as you see it as a challenge it will never be.
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How about asexual girls? They do exist. They might be known as master blueballers aka “unexpected masturbation when in reality they are attractive women who haven’t put out in years because sex doesn’t concern them. For the record, I am friends with this person and if you can pull her, my hat goes off to you.
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It is instead awash in fear, hatred, anger, jealousy, duplicity, lust, ego… and occasionally love I’m deeply attracted to the late JIM MORRISON, more so than many other rock stars. Guess why.
I think places of worship should be places to have sex in. In my view, sex and love are more often than not one in the same. Having sex in a synagouge, to me, is the same as having sex in my parent’s house.
I hope I have officially creeped all of you out. But come on, that’s how babies are made!
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2 Locke
“Ultimately, I preferred them because I want what I “can’t” have.”
Wow, that’s awesome. I have a couple of true stories for you, though they have nothing to do with you, obviously.h
A close friend of one of my ex’s used to practically make a career out of bedding newlywed women. He found the challenge exhilarating! He scored big time with a much younger woman who had been married only 3 months and lived in the apartment next door. He could hear her and her husband having sex through the wall. After he made it with her, it devastated them both and wrecked their marriage!
Another woman he successfully seduced had only been married five months. Her husband was away on a business trip (yeah, one of those!) and when he returned she asked him for a divorce or annulment–and here is the funny part–he DIED in her presence of a heart attack! Isn’t that hilarious?? I am totally not being sarcastic here at all. Apparently he had a heart condition that neither was aware of. Better still, she got a big whopping sum of money, and ended up marrying the man who seduced her and they used the money for a Tahitian honeymoon. I kid you not. Unfortunately she has been pretty fucked up and has had a really fucked up marriage with this guy. I know them both well, believe it or not.
Thought you’d enjoy those too, roissy. 🙂
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There is a reason so many people yearn for the life-giving power of requited love and that is because it is so rare. Stay in love with a girl who loves you back and you will secretly be hated by everyone. Kind of like lottery winners.
My husband jokes a lot that he’s already won the lottery. Of course I wonder if he is still going to feel that way in 20 years, when he’ll be 50 and I’ll be 44.
Ugh. Growing old sucks. Time is totally flying now.
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Those are some crazy stories, candy cane. LOL
Seems like the second story shows that this guy was actually getting romantically involved with his targets. Not something I ever attempted with the girls I sought. And marriage might make a difference. Since these were college girls, marriage wasn’t an issue.
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8 Locke
Well, I was being quite sarcastic. I don’t really think they are funny stories at all. And of course you never attempted to get romantically involved with the women you seduced. In the second story, I believe he was more interested in the money she got from her husband’s death and shortly after he died, one of her rich uncles died and she inherited even more money.
I’m just saying, don’t be an imbecile with your need to overcome challenges in order to get sex. It’s an idiot’s game. Sex could be a powerful force for good in the world, instead it’s cheapened by people like you who completely misuse it’s power. Just become so many do it, does not make it right as my mother used to say. The majority is usually…almost always…wrong.
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Candy C., just for the record, this is one of those occasions when I agree with you.
Sometimes Roissy’s posts, and their comments, read like a handbook in how to make yourself/your partners miserable for life in 10 easy lessons.
Of course, when I read Roissy’s posts I take them with a huge helping of salt. I do wonder, though, about some of the commenters.
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“Or… wait for it… a non-Americanized Muslim girl in a mosque? You do the last and manage to avoid decapitation your name will be legend and spoken of in hushed tones around campfires and at men’s retreats.”
-interesting story on this. I read an author on the web who recounted what a Saudi friend of his told him. In Saudi Arabia, the female wives are often kept in their own quarters, and males including the husband are not allowed in if female shoes outside the door are present. But this makes it easier for affairs as all the male has to do is pretend to be a female friend, and there is no risk of being caught due to the religious rules in place.
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Wait, the average American man only has 7 sexual partners? This cannot be right.
And I must be running with the wrong crowd, because I know a lot of people who have had threesomes. Even if half are lying, still a good amount. Not so shockingly: only one was MMF.
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Candy, Clio,
What is wrong with pursuing a threesome? I mean, assuming that all adults are willing, why should that not be pursued?
Damn, it sounds like a lot of fun. And, even if it wasn’t, well, life lived and lesson learned. Good for us.
And, on “Falling in Love”, well, this always reminds me of a question I used to ask girls back in college:
Girls would always be throwing the word “love” around (it seemed like guys never did). So, I decided to ask this girl, who was “in love” with her boyfriend, to describe her feelings WITHOUT using the word “love” or “care” (a common substitute) or ever referencing Marriage (“oh, I want him to be my husband. I want to marry him.”).
By far, the most common response was a dumbfounded silence. Followed by “uh, well, I , uh, um, I dunno, I just love him”.
I always thought it was interesting.
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9 candy cane,
First of all, my desire to acquire what is forbidden was much stronger and more demanding when I was younger. Clearly, many college students are motivated to reach for the forbidden. What you call an idiot’s game, I call being young and growing up.
How can I misuse the power of sex unless it has an objective value and purpose outside of your own moral paradigm? I believe sex is for recreation and/or procreation. In that context, I have not abused it.
And keep in mind that these girls chose to stray from their relationships in search of something that was lacking. That I put part of my personality forward at the expense of other parts in the hopes of securing intimacy is no different than most examples of dating. We all play up, play down, or just plain hide what we think will prevent the relationship from moving forward.
Don’t believe me? Think about those handful of things you won’t do or say to prospective mates in the early stages of dating. Even the most “serious” of courtships is still blatant manipulation.
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Why are threesomes on here, but anal sex isn’t? I found most women more receptive to the concept of bringing in their friends that going the the back door.
I think threesomes are in reach of many men, but it’s performance anxiety and the “what if” factor that keeps us from pursuing them.
Also, you might wanna specifiy which kind of threesome you mean. I know one women who made two guys a regular thing.
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13 U.L.
“What is wrong with pursuing a threesome? I mean, assuming that all adults are willing, why should that not be pursued?”
Did not say threesomes were not worth experiencing. I experienced as much as I could when younger including same sex sex, threesomes, foursomes, etc. It’s not what you do, but how you do it. I don’t long for those days again. What seemed so thrilling then is was actually such a big deal. So go for it, all willing.
14 Locke
“Even the most “serious” of courtships is still blatant manipulation.”
You’re either misusing the word “manipulation” or “serious courtship” or you think everyone a coward who is incapable of stating their true desires and sticking to them, even at the “expense” of a relationship not “moving forward”. Do you see the insanity of what you are saying? Why in hell do you want something to “move forward” when there is a very good chance it’s not what you want, after all how would you even know if you and the other coward are not even being honest with yourselves let alone each other?
“I believe sex is for recreation and/or procreation.”
I believe sex is for transformation and in that context you have abused it at worst or wasted it at best.
“keep in mind that these girls chose to stray from their relationships in search of something that was lacking.”
In reality they were not “in love” at all, else they’d be out conquering the world rather than being the subject of meaningless sex. Only your ego wanted to believe you had overcome some big challenge. I think you just said that in so many words.
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Correction: What seemed so thrilling then was NOT actually such a big deal.
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great list, and the only way to do the last one is to get her to fall in love with you. to convince her that she’s not in love with him, she just thinks she is, and she’s really in love with you. quite a feat.
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First:
None of these challenges are worth pursuing except staying in love
Then:
Did not say threesomes were not worth experiencing. So go for it, all willing.
Congratulations! I am, once again, completely lost. Don’t bother to explain, I am actually starting to prefer this.
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16 candy cane
Don’t ask me to answer for why people hide or exaggerate parts of their personality in order to move forward in relationships. It’s a fact that I think most people realize. That’s why it’s foolish for people to rush into marriage. You rarely see a person as the truly are in the early stages of dating. You’re incorrectly assuming that just because I observe this “insanity” that I advocate or support it. And I assure you, I’m not misusing either term. Thanks for trying, though.
Yes, in your context you believe I have misused, abused, whatever. Do you understand what I’m saying, though? Your context is only yours and means absolutely squat to me. I have my own views. Unless you’ve got something objective to offer, it’s hard for anyone to say who wasting what. I don’t pretend to have the God-like understanding of the final purpose for things as you claim to have.
In reality, how can you pretend to know anything about these people that you’ve not met? I was there, I spoke with them, and now you’re assuming you know more about me and them than I do. Again, we’re back to your God-like wisdom. I haven’t told you anything except that they loved their boyfriend and I slept with them. Do you know they weren’t “conquering the world” in the spare time? Really, you can’t possibly have any clue about these girls.
What I think is true cowardice is that what I talk about doesn’t jive with your sheltered, fragile world view, so you’d rather discredit me and what I say rather than have to reconcile it into your myopic ideology.
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Usually Lurking, would you pursue a “threesome” in which the third party was another man (even if he never laid a hand on you)? No? Didn’t think so. And that’s why most women don’t want to do it either – the potential for jealous misery is high, while the sexual reward, from a straight female point of view, is low. Most people who say yes to such scenarios do so in the hope of holding on to a mate who threatens to stray, or because they’re drunk.
Locke, you’re talking nonsense. There’s considerable difference between discretion during courtship, when you’re trying to determine if you have anything in common with a prospective mate but are reluctant to reveal too much of yourself at once in a relationship that might not work out, and the kind of situation you describe, in which hunger for the forbidden, jealousy and resentment, all played their part. What if you had destroyed someone’s life with your game-playing? Do you think people have no responsibility to each other at all?
If that is what you think – and this is the point I was originally trying to make – why should an angry ex-partner not feel free to take his – or her- revenge on you in any way short of breaking the law? Like oh, say, get you fired from your job; humiliate you in public; send notes to your new girl-friends saying what a s*** you are; or even break up your eventual marriage by doing the same to you? You’re invoking the law of the jungle here.
I know that human sexuality has many dark areas – I’m not trying to say it doesn’t. But that’s sort of my point: the veneer of civilisation in human society is always very thin, and you’d better be bloody well certain of what you’re doing before you go tearing it off.
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I don’t think you invoke the law of the jungle. We’re all subject to it at all times. To think anything different is just kidding yourself.
While you may have done nothing like this to anyone, someone could still choose to get you fired from your job; humiliate you in public, etc. Americans have one pronounced flaw: material wealth has deluded them into think they’re removed from the dangers of life. There is no security. The unfortunate truth is that you can get screwed whether you behave or not, and often those who don’t behave come out ahead.
All that aside, you’re not fairly comparing what I did to a courtship. Obviously, not revealing your fragile side when you’re not sure it will last is different. However, most people also choose to not share what’s bad about them in order not to ruin a relationship’s potential. That’s just the norm. We wait to share our dirty laundry until someone is invested more so they’re less likely to run.
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Lemmonex,
I want to be your friend.
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Usually Lurking, would you pursue a “threesome” in which the third party was another man (even if he never laid a hand on you)?
Clio, can I rephrase your question?
How about, “Would you pursue something that you are not willing or wanting to do?” I won’t bother to answer that one.
And that’s why most women don’t want to do it either
I hope those women never pursue it. Really.
So, I will repeat my question:
What is wrong with pursuing a threesome? I mean, assuming that all adults are willing, why should that not be pursued?
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Getting it on with a high-priced hooker with such skill that she’s willing to let you do it for free whenever you want.
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I agree with you for the most part. However, the law of the jungle only applies, because most humans fail miserably at the prisoners dilemma in the long wrong.
We could move beyond all this crap our minds have the ability to do so, but too many lack the will power to expand their own perception of reality.
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Well, Locke, I’m not an American, as it happens, but I see your point. I don’t think you quite see mine, however. It’s perfectly true that “bad things” can happen to you even if you behave well, and anyone who doesn’t know this, doesn’t really understand human history. (That’s what the Book of Job is all about.) But there’s a difference between having to endure unfair treatment at the hands of others, or of life itself, and carelessly inflicting it on people without thought for the consequences, in order to scratch an itch. Why add to the pain of human existence that way – isn’t it hard enough?
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roissy, i can’t believe you’ve put threesomes on this list. that’d be like me saying that, before i die, i want to climb mt. everest, visit all 7 wonders of the world, and … check out that new white castle in downtown louisville.
ok, maybe it isn’t that easy, but, in my experience and in the experience of my circle, threesomes come naturally, albeit somewhat infrequently, to any male who has even one of the following: charm, good looks, strong presence, power.
perhaps you’re overrating the difficulty because you have insanely high standards for both girls.
locke #2
I never liked my encounters to be discussed, and you can count on the girl in love to keep her mouth shut so that her boyfriend never finds out.
shit tends to hit fans when people get angry. you’re probably fine the following week (as referenced), but watch your back if and when they have a major fight.
Finally, it seems to bring out the animal in them.
right on with this one. little to no kissing/foreplay, just pure raunch.
unfortunately, i’ve grown a conscience since then.
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#12 lemmonex
Wait, the average American man only has 7 sexual partners? This cannot be right.
the betas, the omegas, the great unwashed masses are included in this statistic.
try going to the consumer electronics show in las vegas, checking out the profile of the average male in attendance, and marveling that the number is higher than zero.
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alias clio #21
get you fired from your job
surprisingly easy for females to do to males, and nearly impossible for males to do to females. (for the magnitude of the disparity, look up the facts behind the court case of trepanier v. national amusements, a rare instance in which the wronged male was vindicated.)
although the other routes of revenge you’ve mentioned are penhaps equally available to both.
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I’m glad that you threw threesomes on that list… despite what many people claim, I think they are extremely hard to set up. The logistics and requisite luck involved (for a MFF) are just too much to make it a likely event.
This post did remind of a few things I’ve been ruminating over for a while:
1) Seeing as how the average male has a total of only seven lifetime partners, how much sex does your average male in his 20-30’s have? How long does he go between partners?
2) Has the average male had sex with a woman he just met that day?
3) How hard is it for the average male to sleep with a decent-looking girl from a bar (let’s say a 6 or higher)? For that matter, how hard is it go merely get laid by a decent-looking girl (after a few dates, etc.).
N.B. – by average I mean an average DC guy who reads this blog – let’s say that such a guy is decently good looking, makes a decent salary, and is socially competent.
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19 U.L.
” I am, once again, completely lost. Don’t bother to explain, I am actually starting to prefer this.”
Threesomes do not exclude the value of staying in love. They’re just two different subjects.
20 Locke
“Really, you can’t possibly have any clue about these girls.”
Don’t claim to know all about them; only myself (hopefully) and my view and opinion. Just stating it here. That is all! How is anyone’s opinion/world view objective in the first place? Yours isn’t either; may I remind you? I think I was reminding you.
“Your context is only yours and means absolutely squat to me. ”
Likewise, though it must mean something because you took the time to answer at length.
“what I talk about doesn’t jive with your sheltered, fragile world view,”
You have no idea how unsheltered and unfragile my world view is, but if it makes you feel better to think that, I’m all for it.
21 Clio (speaking of threesomes)
“and that’s why most women don’t want to do it either – the potential for jealous misery is high, while the sexual reward, from a straight female point of view, is low.”
In the threesomes I was involved with, believe it or not there was no jealousy. Absolutely none. There was a group of us, all quite young (teens/early 20’s) and we just swapped all over the place. It went on for maybe 6 to 8 months and then people paired up or moved on. I did a swap when married, because my husband wanted to, and HE got jealous!
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This post did remind of a few things I’ve been ruminating over for a while:
1) Seeing as how the average male has a total of only seven lifetime partners, how much sex does your average male in his 20-30’s have? How long does he go between partners?
There’s undoubtedly a big difference between married and single men, so it’s hard to answer these questions. Keep in mind that most men are married by age 30 and have just one sex partner thereafter.
2) Has the average male had sex with a woman he just met that day?
Depsite what we hear from the “seduction community,” I would imagine it’s quite uncommon. I’ve never heard any man I know brag about doing such a thing, and needless to say it’s the sort of thing a man would brag about if he succeeded.
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I have a question. Why are people obsessed with sex?
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the 7 lifetime partners is accurate. the vast bulk of american men will never experience the joy of variety.
And I must be running with the wrong crowd, because I know a lot of people who have had threesomes.
lemmonex, you run with the *right* crowd.
note: a 3some is FFM only. MMF is a gay aberration. lesson over.
And that’s why most women don’t want to do it either – the potential for jealous misery is high, while the sexual reward, from a straight female point of view, is low.
alias, there was a study recently showing that women’s sexuality is more fluid than men’s. a straight woman will get somewhat aroused by lesbian porn whereas a straight man’s crotch won’t budge at all watching gay porn. this is why most threesomes are two women one man. a significant % of straight women receive some pleasure from the touch of another woman and don’t mind sharing with a man as long as they can be assured they are the “#1 girl” in the man’s eyes. alias, if you recoil at the thought of FFM i might hazard a guess that your hormonal profile is different than the average woman’s, making you more like straight men in that the idea of same sex lovemaking repulses you.
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In the threesomes I was involved with, believe it or not there was no jealousy. Absolutely none. There was a group of us, all quite young (teens/early 20’s) and we just swapped all over the place. It went on for maybe 6 to 8 months and then people paired up or moved on. I did a swap when married, because my husband wanted to, and HE got jealous!
It sounds like you’re describing a group of couples exchanging partners for one-on-one sex. If that’s the case, these activities are not what are usually meant by the term “threesomes.”
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Why are people obsessed with sex?
I can’t speak for others, but people seem no more obsessed with sex than they do Food, Shelter and Safety.
But since those other things are either abundant or easy to come by, then we can focus most of our primal energy on Sex. This goes more for men than women.
For women, I would say that the need for Male Attention (i.e. Safety and, to a lesser degree, Food) trumps Sex.
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32 roissy
alias, there was a study recently showing that women’s sexuality is more fluid than men’s.
Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the study, or maybe a more descriptive name? I’d google it, but I suspect that “women’s sexuality fluid study” would give me some decidedly NSFW links.
Also, I’d bet that alias’s “hormonal profile” is actually more in line with the “average woman’s” than women who choose to participate in MFF threesomes without some kind of external pressure of the type that she mentioned (saving the relationship, etc.). I just don’t believe that most women are into other women. It’s probably higher, percentage-wise, than men who are into other men, but I doubt it’s anywhere near a majority.
Of course, I have no data to back any of this up.
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By far, the most common response was a dumbfounded silence. Followed by “uh, well, I , uh, um, I dunno, I just love him”.
Silence doesn’t necessarily mean she wasn’t in love. People in love like to talk about the person that they love incessantly, but when experiencing first love they almost never know what motivates them. It may be that the emotion was so powerful she didn’t have words to describe it. I could only start to piece together the words to analyze love in the aftermath of the experience.
Love is indescribably intense and pleasurable, but has the simultaneous ability to change into something horribly dark and painful. Once someone has taken deeply, irrevocably of the drug that is love, that person will not be the same.
Being in love is neurochemically, physiobiologically much the same as being heavily addicted to a drug. It is the granddaddy of drug addiction. A person in love literally goes through withdrawal symptoms when away from the person loved. Unrequited love is physically painful, and lovers often go into states that can only be described as temporary insanity.
I suspect this is why some people cheat while they are in love. While they can’t get enough of their drug of choice, they still need to release all their pent-up sexual energy (of which love produces a huge amount). They might appease the addiction with a substitute which might not be nearly as good, but who will abate the cravings for a short while. Then they will deeply regret having done so.
But they will always go back to that best drug. It’s among the strongest biological and sexual imprinting known to us.
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Roissy, old chap, why must you try to provoke me in this way whenever you address me directly?
You do realise that what you’re saying – however well statistics may back you up – doesn’t make any sense, don’t you? It appears to amount to this: women who are somewhat “butch” in personality [who, though you don’t say so, are surely more likely than the average woman to be lesbians] are more likely than purely feminine women [who, though again you don’t mention it, are surely more likely to be straight] to be repulsed by – lesbian sex.
I repeat, does that make any sense to you at all?
Anyway, I’m not so much repulsed by the idea of sex with women as I am alarmed by it. I know that many women out there are far more manipulative than I am. Then, of course, there’s the, er, moral factor. It just happens to be one of those things I Would Not Do.
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Reggie–you are right on the mark.
While our sexuality is more fluid maybe, the actual act of having a woman perform sex acts on me is really quite repulsive to me.
And the idea that my man would be with another woman EVEN with me being #1? Hell no.
Ugh…I am getting upset just thinking about it.
I am all for kinky sex but threesomes? No way in hell…too much potential for jealously and the ick factor is pretty high.
DaysofBrokenArrows—Almost every girl I know has had anal sex with a boyfriend and yet not one of them has had a threesome.
I think no anal is a myth…threesomes are WAY harder to get a woman involved in.
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Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the study, or maybe a more descriptive name? I’d google it, but I suspect that “women’s sexuality fluid study” would give me some decidedly NSFW links.
A professor I studied under did lab research on female/male genital response to pornography (he was trying to recruit from the undergraduate intro to psych class, too). Here is one of the articles he’s written.
Basically, men are very specific in their physical response to visual stimuli — if they don’t like gay sex, they won’t get erect. Women do not need to psychologically respond to scenarios in order to get physiological responses, likely an evolved protective mechanism for the female reproductive tract.
Women who are not as aware cannot easily separate a biological phenomenon from actual desire, so they think, “I get wet when around naked women, therefore I’m bi.” I overanalyze every one of my emotions and thoughts, so when reading my high school biology book and getting horny by images of copulating frogs, I did not conclude, “gee, I’m into animals.”
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30 candy cane
Yes, I’m well aware that my moral outlook is extremely subjective. However, that’s why I don’t comment on Roissy’s exploits with moral judgment. It is what it is; it’s his life.
However, based on a few lines of what I wrote, you had plenty to say about me, what you assumed to be my motivation for what I had done, and how much of it I advocate. I took issue with that, and don’t apologize for it.
27 alias clio
I think I do understand your point, and I don’t necessarily disagree. You have to understand that I’m in the strange position of discussing all of this from two viewpoints: the mindset I was in at the time, and now. I graduated from college over 10 years ago, so the distinction gets a little muddled.
Believe it or not, my behavior was not malevolent in intent. I simply felt attraction to these girls, and more so for their involved status. I followed that attraction, presented my interest, and when I found a mutual interest, acted on it.
I think people find this offensive because they fear being the “oblivious boyfriend.”
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just don’t believe that most women are into other women. It’s probably higher, percentage-wise, than men who are into other men, but I doubt it’s anywhere near a majority.
Surveys have long shown gay men to outnumber lesbians by a fairly wide margin. If I recall correctly, the best estimate is that the percentage of men who identify as gay is about twice the percentage of women who identify as lesbians, though the gap may be narrowing somewhat.
Now, it could well be that if self-identified gays and lesbians are excluded, a higher percentage of men are repulsed by the thought of sex with another man, than women are repulsed by the thought of sex with another woman. It actually makes sense. Human anatomy being what it is, women have a greater ability to fool around with one another without their activity crossing a line to unequivocally become sex. With two men, there are a couple of points of no return, beyond which all doubt ceases and their activities most assuredly become sex.
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Clio, what, no response to comment 24? I thought that my question was a good one.
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34 Peter
Peter, Peter, Peter! I do know what a threesome is believe it or not. Was actually covering threesomes AND a couple swap in one paragraph. I have done more threesomes than couple swaps.
40 Locke
“you had plenty to say about me,”
Yes, and you also said “I realized along the way that EVERY relationship has something missing and if you can exploit that, you’re home free.”
I wondered what you were home free FOR and found the answer rather boring: recreational sex. Maybe I’ve had enough recreational sex to realize how dull it really is.
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BTW I have had one on one sex with three different women, not at the same time, and after the third try realized it was actually quite boring. Same parts, ya know? Boring.
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Hope, you said a lot of interesting things.
The reason that I asked these girls that question was because I did strongly suspect that they were not in love. But, I had to go by what I thought love was. And this was based on what I saw in my parents.
And, back then, I could not put my finger on it. What seemed to be missing from so many of these girls who claimed to be in love.
Later on, I could name it: “Mutual Admiration”.
It was something I saw in my parents marriage that I did not see in theirs (the girls who claimed to be in love). It was obvious that my parents thought very highly of one another.
And, in those relationships I was talking about, it was absolutely obvious that Mutual Admiration did not exist.
Also, Hope, a lot of the things you said sounded more like an addiction than love. And, well, I don’t think that I would describe love that way. Especially if that means one or both people would be willing to cheat to achieve that feeling.
Granted, this is probably just a semantic argument. But, any one that cheats on me, never truly loved me.
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UL–We sound like we come from the same background. In terms of parents.
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43 candy cane
Yes, I was speaking from my personal experience with every relationship I’ve encountered. You were speaking about things you haven’t sufficient knowledge of to judge.
I absolutely LOVE that you’re are condemning me for pursuing recreational sex while also attempting to condescend about how much recreational sex you’ve had.
I’m so impressed that you’re such a player. Guess you and I aren’t so different, are we? It appears you cheapen sex, too.
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Here is the link to that study Roissy mentions (which I also had mentioned on this blog). It says exactly what he said: Men are turned on by one thing and women are turned on by many things — women’s sexuality is more fluid.
Not that we needed science, but this explains why you constantly see college girls kissing for fun, etc. but rarely see college boys doing this.
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/study_suggests_difference_between_female_and_male_sexuality
Here’s another write-up on the study:
http://cooltech.iafrica.com/technews/856723.htm
NOTE TO FEMINISTS: This study proves it is BIOLOGY not “socialization” or “gender roles” that define sexuality. This is not 1973; we have scienticfic studies now, not aberrant female professors with affirmative action degrees spouting “theories.” Or is science a “male construct?”
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a 3some is FFM only. MMF is a gay aberration.
Is MMF still gay if the men shish-kabob the woman (to use your own line), carefully avoiding any male-to-male skin contact?
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Later on, I could name it: “Mutual Admiration”.
Frankly, I’ve never not been in love with anyone who wasn’t in love with me, but others are not so lucky. Unrequited love happens all the time, and there is no such thing as mutual admiration in those scenarios.
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Is MMF still gay if the men shish-kabob the woman (to use your own line), carefully avoiding any male-to-male skin contact?
Unless he’s a eunuch standing guard, another naked male in the room while you have sex = gay.
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In my experience 1 and 2 are usually related. My threesome experience was with a girl that was openly bisexual and not a gf which is key. Having a threesome with a gf is huge baggage. Friends that have told me they experimented with having threesomes by getting their almost always bi-gf’s to bring a friend faced too many complications afterwards which always led to a break-up. I’ve never met a 100% straight girl that allowed her bf the satisfaction. Every girl I know that has taken part in one is bi. I’ve never heard of a FMM threesome either but I’m sure there is a female lawyer out there who probably paid for it or someone can go ask Madonna.
I agree, women’s sexuality is far more fluid than men, by light years. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen girls kissing each other in clubs usually to titillate men nearby. Straight guys just don’t do that kind of shit. With women add booze and drugs and all kinds of shit can go down. Women are far nastier than they let on.
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47 Locke
Look Mr. Locke, I sympathize with you. You came in here with your ego pumped saying
“I spent my first 3 years in college exclusively targeting girls DEEPLY IN LOVE with their boyfriends. While difficult, THE PERKS ARE GYNORMOUS (HEHE).” Blah, blah, blah. You were OBVIOUSLY (my current favorite word) addressing the men folk who no doubt are duly impressed. Then you have ME calling you an imbecile. It had to not have made your day. Perhaps you’re not really so proud of your college days behavior? But then you’re advocating it here and I took umbrage to that. Simple enough.
“You were speaking about things you haven’t sufficient knowledge of to judge.”
That is really vague, but it’s O.K.
” absolutely LOVE that you’re are condemning me for pursuing recreational sex”
Condemnation is much too strong a word. More likely wasting energy and I should know cuz I’ve been there. In my opinion a player pretends to be what they are not, to have other intentions than what they do, or at the least conceal quite a bit, in the interest of getting recreational sex. Then they get that gleeful feeling of “getting over” or getting what they want while possibly duping another person. You know, like exploitation.
I can say I’ve probably been guilty of that but not related to sex, but money. Getting a man to pay my bills or support me when I did not really love them, though they thought I did and I knew it.
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^ BTW Locke, you distinctly said you were not a player and I believe that if what you say is true. The women knew without a doubt the game that was being played, so then it’s not a game, is it? I’m just saying that it’s a bullshit game that is not being played. Yes, that makes sense somehow.
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I hadn’t yet responded to your question in #24, UL, because I was working, something I do from time to time, though it may seem hard to believe!
And your question shows that you missed my point. Many of the women who get involved in “threesomes” are doing so under some sort of pressure from a boyfriend/husband, or are under the influence of alcohol – both scenarios which suggest that they are not there entirely willingly. If you don’t see something a little distasteful about that idea, then your sympathies and imagination are a bit limited. And your nose for trouble, too – angry women can make a man very unhappy indeed. You may respond that such anger wouldn’t be justified, that nobody had held a gun to their heads – but where sex is concerned, people aren’t often reasonable. Men as well as women.
Perhaps I should have asked you if you would ask a girlfriend or wife to engage in such an activity? As I said, that’s how they usually happen. How would you ascertain that she was entirely willing, that she wasn’t saying yes because she was afraid to lose you? How would you set it up so that neither woman felt jealous or hurt by your attention to the other? And what if you suddenly discovered that they were too interested in each other – and turned on you and humiliated you in some way?
Even if you could be sure that both women who agreed to share your bed were entirely willing, I would still say that it was wrong to do so, of course, but that’s another matter.
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Roissy, old chap, why must you try to provoke me in this way whenever you address me directly?
i am a naughty boy.
It appears to amount to this: women who are somewhat “butch” in personality [who, though you don’t say so, are surely more likely than the average woman to be lesbians] are more likely than purely feminine women [who, though again you don’t mention it, are surely more likely to be straight] to be repulsed by – lesbian sex.
alias, i didn’t specify how you would be like the typical man in your revulsion to same sex loving. by “hormonal profile” i was speculating along the lines of higher estrogen levels which could influence you to shun lesbian sex in the same way straight men are naturally repulsed by gay sex. admittedly, this was a bit glib, but the prankster is strong in me.
i can’t dig up the study now, but the gist of its conclusion was that women are not as “either-or” in their arousal response to straight and homosexual porn like men are. women are more fluid and, presumably, this accounts for their greater openness to participate in FFM 3somes and as DF said, to kiss other women in clubs, something men NEVER do.
that said, i agree with your unstated premise that the majority of straight women are turned off by sex with another woman, whether a man is present or not. but many MANY more straight women are OK with homosexual action in a way that nearly ALL straight men are not.
also, kassyk is right. it is much easier, and more common, to experience anal sex with a woman than to convince her to go along with a 3some. the third party in anal sex is the anus; the third party in a 3some is another human being. this adds a few orders of magnitude more layers of complexity to the proposition.
Is MMF still gay if the men shish-kabob the woman (to use your own line),
for it to not be gay, she’d have to have a really long torso, so that one man was down the street doing her from behind while the other was in the room getting mouth pleasure.
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Locke
I love it when people come here to voice an opinion and claim to be non-judgmental. We are all here judging, either positively or negatively. You had a very positive judgment on:
“Having sex with a girl who is already in love with another man.”
Are you saying you never, ever have a negative judgment on roissy? You must be one and the same person.
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#54 alias
Even if you could be sure that both women who agreed to share your bed were entirely willing, I would still say that it was wrong to do so, of course, but that’s another matter.
Another matter or not, why do you believe this? Because of the potential fallout? As long as we’re being hypothetical, let’s assume that it’s a one-night thing that does not do any psychological/emotional damage to anyone. Is it still wrong?
#55 roissy
to kiss other women in clubs, something men NEVER do.
I see where you’re coming from, but I should point out that women kissing each other in clubs isn’t evidence of anything. Those women are simply attention whores trying to validate themselves by titillating men; making out with another girl is simply a means to that end, not an expression of sexuality. If they could get the same level of male attention by busting out a sweet banjo solo, they’d do that instead of kissing.
Male attention whores don’t make out with other men because it simply is nowhere near as titillating to women as the reverse situation is for men. They use other methods — like, say, wearing a giant Dr. Seuss hat.
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Granted, this is probably just a semantic argument. But, any one that cheats on me, never truly loved me.
I could also say that if you refuse to accept and forgive the fallible nature of the person you love, then you never truly loved. But that’s pointless, because different people have different expectations of love. Love is a neurological state. The reaction to that particular brain chemistry varies wildly from person to person.
People in love are not perfect. “In love” is as fragile and fleeting as any other state of brain chemistry. I have no trouble believing that people who are “in love” could abandon, betray, hurt, etc. the person that is loved. I’ve been through the highs and lows of love when I was very young, so I can relate to those that made mistakes and faltered along the way.
A lot of the things you said sounded more like an addiction than love. And, well, I don’t think that I would describe love that way.
According to the article I linked, those who are “in love” have “overall brain activation patterns similar to what you would see when you take a drug like cocaine.” Brain imaging indicates that drug addiction and being “in love” are similar physiologically. Similar patterns have been observed in other mammals. So it’s not just something I’m pulling out of thin air, but backed up by biology.
It was something I saw in my parents marriage that I did not see in theirs (the girls who claimed to be in love). It was obvious that my parents thought very highly of one another.
Love as an addiction is an urgent “need,” and the mutual admiration you speak of is a more relaxed “want.” The love your parents share is more mature, to be sure, but that mature stage is often (though not always) reached after the immature stage.
The initial rush is deeply rooted in our limbic brain, and those who have experienced the rush first tend to have a stronger bond because their brain and neurons have been transformed by being in love.
The problem comes when people reach that mature stage and feel like it’s not “enough,” and want that rush back. The rush of new love is addictive, but it is not conducive to long-term relationships.
In most successive loves, the highs achieved are not as intense as the early loves, and so past a certain point the bonding simply does not become strong. Gannon loves to point this out and advocates older men to be with younger women — however, older men do not bond as strongly as younger men either. This results in what we see as bachelors or players for life.
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52 candy cane
You’ve made all the assumptions about how I feel about what I did. I was neither bragging, nor have I expressed guilt. You are looking for it, but it’s not there.
Maybe some of the women did know, but I challenge you to show me how you would know anything about them or what they knew. Your assumptions are just wildly generous to your assertions. You don’t know anything about the situation beyond what I’ve told you, which is next to nothing.
And I have to wonder why it is you’ve not chosen to ask about anything before making judgment. Something tells me you’ve got experience that relates directly to what I’ve described in some way. Apparently, I poked an open wound.
My ego is not bruised. Again, that’s all on the assumption that you know how I feel about any of this. However, I do get pissed when people insult my intelligence. Have you ever done things others would think are stupid? If you tell your friend about a meaningless sexual exploit in your past, do you expect her to call you a bitch? In any event, I’ll return the favor. Next time you post anything I disagree with or think unwise, I’ll be sure to attack you personally.
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19 U.L.
“First:
None of these challenges are worth pursuing except staying in love
Then:
Did not say threesomes were not worth experiencing. So go for it, all willing.”
You said not to explain this and I have no idea why I am, but this is not as much a contradiction as you think. I don’t think threesomes are worth a big CHALLENGING effort. I made that clear. They are not the be all and end all of human existence in and of themselves; far from it. But if somehow the opportunity presents itself, go for it. If you want to pursue it as a big challenge to be overcome, go for it. Ultimately I don’t really care. It’s your decision. Was just sharing my personal experience.
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UL–We sound like we come from the same background. In terms of parents.
Do you have the other half to this amulet?
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^ Oh, you probably can’t see it. Nevermind.
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UL, candy… for the love of god you two are killing the fun vibes. please redirect your epic pointless arguing to the nearest therapist’s couch. or at the very least get yourselves a good editor.
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roissy
“for the love of god ”
So sorry you aren’t enjoying yourself today, roissy. Sounds like you have a personal problem. 🙂
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I hadn’t yet responded to your question in #24, UL, because I was working, something I do from time to time, though it may seem hard to believe!
Hey, calm down. I saw you responding to other comments and I was getting jealous. That’s all.
Many of the women who get involved in “threesomes” are doing so under some sort of pressure from a boyfriend/husband, or are under the influence of alcohol – both scenarios which suggest that they are not there entirely willingly.
I got your point. But you also shifted the question somewhat. You are bringing up scenarios where people “are not there entirely willingly”. Which is specifically NOT what I asked.
I understand, you feel that this may be a significant portion of those threesomes, but, still, that was not the question. And all of this gets back to saying that threesomes should NEVER be pursued.
Still, you raised a point, so, …
I have always felt that the “but, I was drunk” defense was the worst defense ever. And, I don’t want to get off on a tangent, but, unless you are some teenager getting drunk for the first time or borderline brain-dead, then this is no defense. One, alcohol does not make you do anything but piss and fall over. Two, everybody on earth knows that their inhibitions are lowered when drunk. But, I will just leave it at that.
For the second group, I have some sympathy, but not a ton. I can feel for people who are doing things that they may not have otherwise. And that they are doing these things to keep the other happy. But, I have no more sympathy for them than the married guys I know who have completely changed to satisfy their wives (living lives very different than when they were with their girlfriends). And, it is not the pursuit of the threesome that caused a problem, but that the Girl felt that she had to do these things in the first place. She is probably doing all sorts of things to try to keep him happy. His pursuit of the threesome didn’t really change that.
If you don’t see something a little distasteful about that idea, then your sympathies and imagination are a bit limited.
Jeez, Clio, what is that? Look, you made a point and I am happy to respond.
Perhaps I should have asked you if you would ask a girlfriend or wife to engage in such an activity?
In my last serious relationship I brought it up. More like we were watching Howard Stern and the conversation appeared. She was really into Reese Witherspoon and said that if Reese was there, she would do her in a heartbeat. But she would be scared of how it might affect our relationship if I joined in. So, she was against anyone doing Reese, or any other girl.
How would you ascertain that she was entirely willing, that she wasn’t saying yes because she was afraid to lose you? How would you set it up so that neither woman felt jealous or hurt by your attention to the other? And what if you suddenly discovered that they were too interested in each other – and turned on you and humiliated you in some way?
To be continued…
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Roissy, I have not responded to candy in a while, and, really, I did not want an explanation.
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How would you ascertain that she was entirely willing, that she wasn’t saying yes because she was afraid to lose you?
If it was my wife, I don’t think I would ask. If it was some girl that I had been dating for a short while, I would not be too concerned with getting a “perfect” yes.
That probably disgusts you. In the past, I was way too concerned with satisfying their wants and needs and the amount of energy was simply not returned. Nowadays, I want to be on equal ground. Or, at least, close to it.
So, if I am hanging out with some girl, and another wants to join in, and all seem happy with it, I will leave it at that. We are all adults.
How would you set it up so that neither woman felt jealous or hurt by your attention to the other?
I am not going to obsess over their feelings. Nor will I be a brute. I will expect them to be adults about it. There will be no guarantee that no one will get hurt. Someone might, and we will need to live with it.
And what if you suddenly discovered that they were too interested in each other – and turned on you and humiliated you in some way?
Then that is my own damn fault. And I will need to live with it. If you play with fire, you might get burned.
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Unrequited love happens all the time, and there is no such thing as mutual admiration in those scenarios.
I really, really, really did not think that these girls were experiencing unrequited love.
In these cases, I think that the girls see other girls say that they are in love and even have girlfriedns and cousins who are getting married or engaged, and well, they do not want to be left out.
I am not speaking for everyone, just the girls that I was meeting. The ones that did seem like they were in loving relationships, didn’t seem to “throw” the word around.
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I could also say that if you refuse to accept and forgive the fallible nature of the person you love, then you never truly loved.
It is very possible that my mathematical/logical nature has made me somewhat hardcore, but, if some person cheats on me and then tries to tell me that they love me, well, give me a break.
It is one thing to accept someones fallible nature, it is another thing to accept that.
Actions define the person.
I have no trouble believing that people who are “in love” could abandon, betray, hurt, etc. the person that is loved. I’ve been through the highs and lows of love when I was very young, so I can relate to those that made mistakes and faltered along the way.
This must be the core difference. I don’t think you accidentally said “abandon”. I could never imagine my parents or brother abandoning me. Time and again they proved who they were. So, if some girl were to abandon or cheat on me, well, I would simply let her actions define who she is.
So it’s not just something I’m pulling out of thin air, but backed up by biology.
I believe you, but, again, semantics. I don’t think addictive behaviour and loving behaviour are the same thing.
The love your parents share is more mature, to be sure, but that mature stage is often (though not always) reached after the immature stage.
Most people, I think, will know whether they admire someone very early on. Later on, they will know if they really, really, really, admire that person.
Just imagine over-hearing someone you love say about you, “Hope, yeah, I love her. But, no, I don’t really think that highly of her.”
You would be crushed.
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-don’t hate on candy cane, she obviously carries A LOT of baggage, lives in a pink cloud, and is undoubtably republican. (nuff said)
-regarding the challenges; the “staying in love” one is a whole different beast than all the other challenges, and perhaps also the most difficult one. all the others can be pursued without too much regard to the other person. trial and error approach can be utilized here.
-regarding the 3sums… swinging is live and well in nova. (i know a lot of people who have at one point or another participated in 3sums… in the last year alone. -they really aren’t that difficult to set up. key is to make sure you put it in the other person’s head. in other words, let the girl think it was her idea. if things go sour afterwards.. they only have themselves to blame.)
good luck.
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Christ on a cracker…I have no idea what you people are even talking about anymore.
Roissy, I still contend that UL is your annoying alter ego. Shall we have a threesome?
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I had a dream the other day that Lemmonex was Roissy’s girlfriend.
Roissy, I still contend that UL is your annoying alter ego. Shall we have a threesome?
Take pictures.
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Holy crap, I was going to post a witty retort to Rina’s #5 but I forgot it about half the Internet ago. Shouldn’t you people be out drinking?
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70 “if things go sour afterwards.. they only have themselves to blame.)”
Awesome attitude dude! Am not republican! Hahahaha.
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reggie:
Male attention whores don’t make out with other men because it simply is nowhere near as titillating to women as the reverse situation is for men.
it may not be sexually titillating, but two men kissing would capture women’s attention better than any peacocking cowboy hat or unusual pendant. the reason men don’t kiss for female attention is because… wait for it… men find the idea of kissing other men disgusting.
women, otoh, obviously don’t find the idea of kissing other women disgusting since if they did they wouldn’t freely do it without being prodded.
Roissy, I still contend that UL is your annoying alter ego. Shall we have a threesome?
lemmony goodness, if your idea of a threesome is UL watching us through a webcam and wacking off by the flickering light of his monitor as soggy lonely tears run down his cheeks while we have all the fun then, yes, you’re on.
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DBA’s comment #49 is a good one that got marked as spam. check it out.
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UL, you misread my tone. I wasn’t angry or even annoyed. My first remark (about working), in the last comment I posted, was meant to be playful.
I do think you seem somewhat lacking in imagination…I mean, the kind that sees the implications of your actions and can foresee consequences. You also seem to be harboring a certain amount of resentment towards past girlfriends, which is seldom a good attitude to have if you insist on experimenting – the experiment is that much more likely to go sour if someone has a “hidden agenda”, even if it’s only to feel a thrill of triumph over a past love-gone-wrong.
Short-term gain (i.e. threesomes) is seldom worth the long-term pain it can unleash.
I don’t know why you’re talking about the “drunk defense”. We aren’t discussing the law here, or I wasn’t. It used to be considered ungentlemanly for a man to try to have sex with a woman when she was drunk. But even if you don’t want to be a gentleman, there are good reasons – self-protective reasons – why you ought to avoid seducing a drunk or uncertain woman. Like finding that an angry woman is out to ruin your life. Women are very good at fighting wars without weapons, you know. A man who isn’t aware of and cautious about that fact is too inexperienced to be paddling out to the “wilder shores of love”.
As for “we’re all adults here”: every time I hear that from anyone, a little alarm bell goes off in me. So far as I can tell, most people don’t behave like adults when their vanity, security, or identities are threatened in some way. Sex involves all these things.
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76 whoops, I meant 72, sorry U.L.!
I missed this one from LGH:
“-regarding the challenges; the “staying in love” one is a whole different beast than all the other challenges, and perhaps also the most difficult one. ALL THE OTHERS CAN BE PURSUED WITHOUT TOO MUCH REGARD TO THE OTHER PERSON, TRIAL AND ERROR APPROACH CAN BE UTILIZED HERE.”
Must be that I need a shit load of therapy, like roissy says, but this sound a wee bit sociopathic. It’s probably just me….must look up that therapist. Can you recommend one perhaps, dear roissy???? 🙂
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I’m not surprised by the study to which DOBA links. But I have a theory of my own about it, which doesn’t, by the way, contradict the research, but does interpret its significance a little differently.
This is hard to explain, but bear with me: Women’s sexuality is far more closely connected than men’s to the idea of how they (we) are perceived by another. Because women are biologically/socially/emotionally (all three at once, I mean) conscious that men are aroused by looking at their bodies, there will always be a kind of arousal factor in, as it were, contemplating their bodies’ sexual appeal.
Once this kind of double-consciousness (of oneself as a sexual agent, but also of oneself as a sexual object in a man’s eyes – that famous male “gaze”) is well-established, it isn’t difficult for a woman to go on to have a kind of arousal response to the sight of another woman’s body. Not because she actually wants to make love to another woman, but because she projects herself into that other woman’s position. She is aroused by the idea of male arousal, as it were.
I’m not trying to be a “feminist” or Lacanian here; I don’t think this response is the result of socialization, but of the nature of the sex act, and men’s and women’s different roles in it.
In short, there is an element of erotic narcissism, rather than lesbian sexual interest, in women’s admiration of other women’s bodies. “The beauty of the female is the root of joy to the female as well as to the male, and it is no accident that the goddess of love is older and stronger than the god.” (Charles Williams)
The women I’ve known who have “experimented” with their own sex (I mean those who were not actually lesbian) nearly always have one quality in common: they tend to be extremely pretty women, and in making love to another woman they are, in effect, making love to themselves. Perhaps I should add that they also tend to live/work in circles in which female beauty is an obsessive concern: actresses, models, and singers – people like that.
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Re: DBA’s comment #49: Michael Bailey’s classes were freaking awesome. He tried to recruit girls from my class, but out of all the female undergraduate students he taught he only managed to get 29 of them.
There are some problems with the method of measurement:
Blood rushing to the vagina, engorged clitoris and vaginal wetness signal physical excitement, but without measuring uterine contractions (the “butterflies in stomach” sensation oft-spoken of by women) it cannot be concluded that the women were actually “aroused.”
There are evolutionarily advantageous reasons for women to get physically excited by sexual scenarios, for it means sexual activity may be imminent, and they need to get physically ready for it. Otherwise, they risk tearing or infection to their reproductive tract.
In short, there is an element of erotic narcissism, rather than lesbian sexual interest, in women’s admiration of other women’s bodies.
I would agree with this. I’ve loved collecting photos of pretty women since I was young, but I’ve never gotten aroused by women the same way that I react to men. Beautiful women also inspire women to emulate them, whereas beautiful men cannot be emulated by women and are therefore less interesting in that sense (women are less visual when it comes to romance).
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You also seem to be harboring a certain amount of resentment towards past girlfriends, which is seldom a good attitude to have if you insist on experimenting – the experiment is that much more likely to go sour if someone has a “hidden agenda”, even if it’s only to feel a thrill of triumph over a past love-gone-wrong.
No insistence, but, was curious about the attitude that a threesome should never be pursued.
It used to be considered ungentlemanly for a man to try to have sex with a woman when she was drunk.
In my experience, when a drunk woman is having sex, it is usually with a drunk guy.
As for “we’re all adults here”: every time I hear that from anyone, a little alarm bell goes off in me. So far as I can tell, most people don’t behave like adults when their vanity, security, or identities are threatened in some way. Sex involves all these things.
My point was that we are all old enough to be responsible for our decisions. I don’t want to be any more invested in her wants and needs than she is in mine.
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The emoting, indie band, lead singer could probably do 3 of 5 in one night, at the same time.
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Annoying? ANNOYING?!
Look, all I wanna, I mean, you don’t, oh fuck it.
OK, maybe I analyze too much. But, it’s because, well, I don’t have a good reason.
No threesome for you.
Just a blowjob.
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Roissy, don’t you think you’re being a bit of a cry baby? Did you expect to have a blog site and then control what people say on it? You know very well that what you post has the potential of being provocative.
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I’ve never met a 100% straight girl that allowed her bf the satisfaction.
there are plenty of such girls; they are usually found in relationships with men who are, broadly speaking, 1-2 points (on the 0-10 scale) more desirable than they are.
one could make an econometric model here, in which those 1-2 points are compensated by the additional sexual freedom, but common sense should do the trick.
in general, the happiest married/partnered men i know are in relationships with women who are slightly lower on the attractiveness/desirability ladder than they are; most of them have correspondingly higher levels of sexual freedom and wear-the-pants-in-the-relationship-ness.
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Alias, your post #81 was mighty fine. Gotta love the internet where such jewels are available for the browsing.
I witnessed a good example of what you said when four female coworkers (in the late Nineties) invited me to accompany them to a strip bar (the invitation came when we were all already at a pool hall, not at work). All these coworkers were in their late twenties and very attractive, and I doubt any of them was what one would call bi. One of them spoke for all when she told me “Women are sexy.” Your comment above shed some retrospective light on that remarkable evening. The one that said “women are sexy” was very well-endowed chest-wise and, after a few drinks, let two of the other girls lift her blouse and pull down her bra for a sec (for my benefit I guess, though they acted like they didn’t notice me casually glancing). They also (all four of them) intermittently stroked each other’s crotches (slacks on, flys remaining zipped) with fingers throughout the evening as they watched the dancers. And no, I am not making this up.
I was aroused like crazy for the next two days, but unfortunately for me since this was real life and not a Penthouse Forum entry, I had no romantic involvement with any of them, then or since (one of them gave clear signals of interest, but she was a single mother and a coworker so [even though she was the one whose spectacular mammaries I got a glimpse of!]) I feigned disinterest.
I will always be grateful to them for trusting me not to tell anyone else at work (which I of course never did).
Bottom line, straight women can indeed get aroused by other women without wanting to perform lesbian acts. As an elderly woman of my acquaintance once commented (I think when I had noted how girl models are so much more favored than males on TV, even when the target of the ad is women), “Everybody likes a pretty girl.”
Johnny Five, I’ll bet Gannon would agree with me that, in addition to what you said above, a large age difference also results in more wear-the-pants-in-the-relationship-ed-ness.
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Another thought. Evo-psych might offer a reason why women can be turned on (or at least not turned off) by other women while men are repulsed by men: many women in the past were in polygamous situations (e.g., a harem) where, by definition, the sole man present was a good provider. Of course there’s no comparable situation for males. So, from that standpoint it shouldn’t be surprising that women can get wet at the sight of naked cuties whereas guys are revolted by the sight of another man’s equipment.
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U.L. Have you booked your therapist appointment yet???
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Candy: Perhaps you can help UL on your couch? You can get in there and dig around until you figure out what makes him tick…
Here is my hit and run fwiw:
Threesomes are a great novelty but generally leads to jelousy
either during or soon after the fact. It is the whole third wheel principle. It is still worth trying several times to either confirm/deny what I just wrote. Just don’t do it with anyone you actually care about.
Love is a strong emotion! Strong emotions can evoke strong reactions. Remember when you are gaming someones lover, that they might object…with a pistol. Enough said.
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#77 roissy:
women, otoh, obviously don’t find the idea of kissing other women disgusting since if they did they wouldn’t freely do it without being prodded.
The thing prodding them is their own need for validation.
But I actually agree with you about women’s sexuality being more fluid than men’s. I just get irritated at women who make out with each other and expect men to respond with fawning appreciation, as if they’ve done something completely unprecedented and incredibly subversive instead of the attention-whoring cliche that it is. And I get even more irritated at men who give them the attention they crave in response. Don’t those guys realize that if they want any chance with those women they have to play it cool?
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Women greatly enjoy sensuality. We like all things emotional and sensory-stimulating during and when thinking about sex. It’s the ambiance, the smell, the way someone touches us. It’s not really the thrusting or the physical stimulation. This obviously, can come from a man or a woman. I find both genders to be desirable. However, I only have ever wanted to have any sort of actual relations with a man, even when given the opportunity to hook up with a feminine, attractive female.
I think a lot of threesomes and other sexual play like anal are not necessarily coming from a place of desire for a woman. A lot of girls want to please their men, because a girl’s happiness often depends on the happiness of her boyfriend. So if it will make him happy, she will have a threesome. Yes, part of her wants to do it, but usually not badly enough to pursue it for her own pleasure.
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I stopped reading around comment 37, but if trends continued in the rest of the comments, then I can correctly say…
I’m surprised no one suggested another item for your list: bedding a somewhat intelligent, somewhat self-respecting woman who reads your blog with any regularity. Now THAT would be an achievement, no?
Or no?
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K: I believe that entails that a “somewhat intelligent, somewhat self-respecting woman who reads your blog” would be willing to first put up a picture to be judged. I am pretty sure that no one here flies blind.
That does however present an interesting challenge although complex from many angles.
1. Said party knows they are being gamed. (Like hunting deer with a strobe light and a foghorn going)
2. Opens all participants to being gamed/ridiculed by said female.
3. Although if legit, only the strong survive.
Takes a strong personality to put themselves out there in front of so many peers and hands entirely too much power to the female.
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95 F.A.
All it takes is a picture to be judged? I’ve been called beautiful by more than a few men. That’s easy! (Too easy, ugh)
1. I always know when I’m being gamed and never fall for it.
2 I never ridicule a gamer, but just don’t respond the way they’d like. Ridicule is for arrogant/insecure people. If you want respect, you have to give it. Just because I express negative views anonymously on a blog site does not mean I don’t behave respectfully in the “real” world.
3. Just be too legit to quit, and I’m there.
Too much power to the female? You lose. So then how much power do you really have? You’re faking it!!
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CC: So you say. And Brad Pitt is my ugly brother, so I say.
1. You never fall…then you’ve never played
2. “Just because I express negative views anonymously on a blog site does not mean I don’t behave respectfully in the “real” world.” Wow, there is so much in that one sentence.
3. Nice M.C. Hammer phrase but you missed the point. If it were a legitimate offer from a female that wasn’t gaming or nuts or both it would be an interesting contest.
Yes and I stand by that statement. If you think relationships (I am using that term very loosely) do not involve power struggles you are delusional.
I never fake it. Back in the day you would be wondering why I never called you back.
My name is Former Alpha and I approve this message.
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96 candy cane
You may know when you’re being played, but something tells me that your frigid, annoying ways are rooted in having been played all too often and now you’ve got baggage that you can’t move with a truck.
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^ You have no idea, Mr. Widget! But how could you? You only read comments on a blog site and probably think roissy is right about everything.
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Absolutely right! I have no idea how frigid you are. Care to detail it for us? On a scale of 7 to 10 (I’m not letting you get below 7 on this one) where do you rate? My money is on a perfect, frosty ’10’ for you!
I don’t think I mentioned Roissy. I was talking about your burning need for conflict to distract from your neurotic tendencies and total lack of sexuality. Let’s stay on topic!
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Other Major Accomplishments that deserve serious props:
1. Sisters
2. Best Friends
3. Mother/Daughter
4. Famous Chicks (after they get famous)
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97 Me want former alpha.
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100 Widget. If there were an 11, I would surely be it. Dry ice. Hehe.
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I didn’t think I was that big of a player, but:
1. Converted a lesbian. Contrary to what lesbians say publicly, a surprising number in healthy committed relationships, even butch ones, feel the need to be boned every now and then. I’ve indulged two so far, it’s really not that big a deal.
2. Threesome. These are genuinely hard to pull off. I’ve been in 3 MFF threesomes. There were jealousy issues in each and every one.
3. Place of worship. Did anal in the National Cathedral. Not at, not outside, not around. In. The condom came out with poopy-tip, and disposing of it was a pain in the neck. The girl was crazy though.
4. Stay in love. This is the only true challenge on the list. There have been nights when I begged God for the ability to be satisfied with just one girl.
5. Having sex with a girl already in love. Affairs with happily married women are interesting. They take mad game to initiate, but once you’re in, you’re in.
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i mean isn’t this article the the the great great or what. i mean seriously i dumped my girlfriend for the game and this is the ultimate challenges .and these all are possible . banging a girl in mosque is almost impossible ,cause girls dont go to mosque.if this happens culturally .then it would be possible. anyways boys,keep the score high.
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