Back in the day I lived in a group house with three other guys. It was a great time. As men, we really sharpened our joshing in this environment. I mastered the art of the cutting retort.
One of the guys, a physically imposing 6’7″ laid back dude, had a hot girlfriend – let’s call her Kay – with a great personality. She was every guy’s dream girlfriend. One night, all of us were sitting around in the living room splayed across dirty couches watching TV when Kay started gossiping about inconsequential private matters involving her boyfriend and his family. She meant no harm by it, and we weren’t really paying attention, but he obviously didn’t like the idea of her revealing personal details from his life. Out of the blue, he thundered
“SHUT THE FUCK UP KAY!!”
The room fell silent. Kay blushed a bright crimson and sat immobile, looking at him submissively from under her lowered eyes. She didn’t protest or attempt to defend herself. I think all she said was “OK alright” in a mousy half-exasperated, half-apologetic voice. After what seemed like hours but was only 30 seconds, one of us broke the tension by changing the subject to something stupid on TV.
Later that night, I was awoken by a steady thumping noise coming through the walls. It was loud enough to rouse me to investigate. I walked closer to the source of the thump on the other side of the house (this was a very large house) which was reverberating from one of the bedrooms. It sounded like a heavy appliance being dropped. As I neared the bedroom door I heard the unmistakeable grunts, moaning, and shrieks of delight of lovemaking. Mr. Shut The Fuck Up was fucking his girlfriend so hard that the bed frame was lifting off the floor. His thrusting tempo was precise — you could have practiced piano to the metronomic beat of the thumping.
There are a few impressionable moments in a young man’s life that opens his eyes to the true nature of women. This was one of them.
***
Proposition: I challenge my male readers — particularly my beta readers — who have girlfriends to an asshole experiment. When your GF makes you genuinely angry I want you to yell at her “SHUT THE FUCK UP”. Credibility will be added if you do it in public. This will be tough for you to do, but my presence will be with you, like the unholy spirit. Visualize your balls physically growing larger when she says something that pisses you off.
Email me the results of this experiment, good or bad. What did she say/do? Did you back down or stand by your words? Did you break up or did you have the best sex of your lives afterward? For those of you who have already yelled like this to your girlfriends, your memory of the event will be accepted for consideration. After I have received a number of responses, I will put up a post in the future quoting each contributing reader’s experience. You will be credited for your bravery in the pursuit of truth and understanding.
I believe some of you will become intoxicated by the power of asshole.
PS: They got happily married.
Roissy you are going to love this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7342923.stm
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How do I keep a woman from shaving her glorious natural pelt.
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Shut the fuck up? Unnecessarily crude in my opinion. That particular method wouldn’t have worked on me personally. It would have been better if he had taken her into another room and said what he had to say BEFORE he went felt like going ballistic. As it is he embarrassed himself, her, and everyone in the room. Ideally he should never have let it get to the point where he was out of control angry and shouting obscenities! There was no need for him to tolerate it as long as he did.
But roissy, you will undoubtedly see this as poetic license to be an asshole. You don’t need my opinion. It’s not nearly as dramatic and doesn’t pump your ego up half as much. It’s the difference between men and boys again. Men don’t need to show off to feel like a man.
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Sindy in the PUA community there is this term called keyboard jockey and it refers to people who mentally masturbate over possible social scenarios instead of actually going out and testing their material in real life. I feel like a lot of women who claim that stuff won’t work on me are just having keyboard jockey syndrome in reverse. KJing FTW! A shout out to our local KJ David Alexander.
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I once had a boyfriend who actually would yell “Shut the Fuck Up” at me. After finally realizing that I wasn’t a piece of shit, and that I didn’t have to be on an emotional roller coaster for the rest of my life, I dumped him and made him move out of our apartment.
No, we never had hot sex after the breakup, and no, I do not remember the days of our relationship fondly.
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Don’t ask me about my business, Kay!
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Peter ” feel like a lot of women who claim that stuff won’t work on me are just having keyboard jockey syndrome in reverse”
Well, apparently you know me better than I do. Congratulations.
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Ideally he should never have let it get to the point where he was out of control angry and shouting obscenities!
you misunderstand.
he was certainly not out of control – and i would lay long odds that he wasn’t the least bit angry, either. just authoritative. (nb, for dizzy8 and her ilk: this is not the same thing as authoritarian)
the voice of legitimate male authority differs substantially from that of legitimate female authority, which is, generally, calm yet firm. i hate to say, but a woman trying to flip the script here would get only a quizzical look, followed by laughter, from any male with balls.
—
let’s not also forget the flipside – the other half of the 1-2 punch – here: meeting female hormonal rampages with calm, disinterested, witty riposte. i remember the following incident when i’d accidentally (yes, accidentally) cut off a woman in line:
Hey fuck you asshole! Get in line!
(smirking) sorry sweetie.
oh so you think you can ‘sweetie’ me?
so that’s how you flirt with me? you riot grrl you.
::speechless::
it was thus, without a shot being fired, that i pwned the conversation, after which she was mine.
—
learn both halves. they will both be extremely difficult if you are currently a mewling milquetoast, but today is the first day of the rest of your life.
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Well-written story, as always, but this does not work on all women. I’ve been there. By the same token, romantic gestures have different effects on different women. And there’s a lesson there. What works on one woman, will make another walk out.
I would have shot her a look and said something about “Why don’t we talk about one of your friends now?”
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Man you just summed up a three year relationship I had.
The thing is you’ve got to be and look like the kind of guy who could say, “shut the fuck up” and mean it. What the underlying lesson is that don’t be afraid to say exactly what’s on your mind and don’t change it or flower it up for her to feel good. In the end if you get dumped (I didn’t) or you get sex, you’ll feel 100 times better about yourself for saying what you felt, exactly how you felt, when you felt it.
It works both ways for girls too
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Women like assholes, but that is a bit much, really.
I am with VK that you should say what is on your mind, but Christ. Sometimes a lighter touch is required. There is a way to assert your authority without humiliating.
I am imagining your response if someone told you to shut the fuck up.
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Once in the privacy of our living room, my girlfriend was blabbing on about boring girl shit and I just couldn’t take it.
Girlfriend: cluck cluck cluck
Me: Just shut the fuck up and suck my cock!
Girlfriend:….. (aroused look on her face)
I whip it out and she proceeds to suck my cock like a hungry baby.
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This “act like an asshole” propaganda that’s being regurgitated by every other wanker on the internet is going overboard.
His girlfriend is the asshole for blabbering gossip. Only nerdboys would consider him an asshole for setting her straight.
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I challenge my male readers — particularly my beta readers — who have girlfriends
Well duh, Einstein, if they’re betas they won’t have girlfriends!
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There’s a thing called proportional response – yeah, Kay was a jerk for blabbing personal stuff, but he could have just told her to knock it off without hollering and making an ass of himself.
I personally really, really can’t stand it when someone raises their voice with me, and would have simply given him the Look of Death and gone home. (No, that’s not keyboard jockeying, I’ve been around enough yellers to know I won’t stand for it.)
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Someone once did that to me. He lived to regret it.
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Yes to all who advocate a proportional response. I had a girlfriend briefly in my twenties who could have been well served by a STFU. Good riddance if she had walked away.
I can’t imagine having to do this now. But sadly, this doesn’t seem to be the norm. If sitcoms and TV commercials are an indicator of the cultural norm,* a typical man is a mewling coward who trembles at his wife’s/GF’s ever-present threat of embarassing him in front of other people.
(*and maybe they’re not — maybe they’re just a wish-fulfillment projection of TV studio executives)
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Shannon came closest to the point with proportional response. “Kay” knew she was in the wrong. Way in the wrong. Family business is just that. It is not to be gossiped about so that it be used as ammo later even when “joshing”.
Lemmonex-Would you whisper “Be careful” if a friend was about to put their hand on a hot stove?
Gradfire-You obviously had other issues, least of which was that he yelled at you.
“6’7” guy spoke to her in a way that immediately ended that behavior and let her know that it was not up for discussion.
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I guess this is a public service announcement for guys that never stood up to their own girl. VK’s spot on. If its who you are then you don’t have to manufacture dominance but if it isn’t then the autcome of the roleplay may not go as expected.
This story does remind me of a 6’7″ guy I used to know with an insanely hot girlfriend that flirted outrageously with me in front of him when I first met them. A night out drinking led to me fondling her in front of him with no consequences for either of us. He was simply too nice or too drunk. He couldn’t manufacture being an asshole if his life dependend on it. He ultimately lost her……to me.
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In the end if you get dumped (I didn’t) or you get sex, you’ll feel 100 times better about yourself for saying what you felt, exactly how you felt, when you felt it.
You know, this is very “feminine” advice. And I am not criticizing. “Express your feelings”. This is not advice men would have given just two generations ago.
And to all the girls that are saying that he made an ass of himself, remmeber, he got results.
I am with johnny 5 on this one. Assuming that he did not get angry when he expressed that thought, he was just being authoritative to someone that was talking out of school.
Clio, have you never had a positive reaction to a “strong” man? Also, you seem very logical, which is a good thing, but what about your more emotional girlfriends? What would there reaction be?
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If sitcoms and TV commercials are an indicator of the cultural norm,* a typical man is a mewling coward who trembles at his wife’s/GF’s ever-present threat of embarassing him in front of other people.
(*and maybe they’re not — maybe they’re just a wish-fulfillment projection of TV studio executives)
PA, just remember this: whatever the current situation, it is likely to change very soon.
Just one example would be the growing Latino population. I think Latinos make up something like 14 percent of the American population, but, within 40 years, it will be about 1/3.
Also, I have seen a real backlash against what would be considered mid-1990’s norms. Most men absolutely hate Political Correctness; although, many seem unable to act on that hatred.
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Generally speaking, you can only pull this off successfully if you have something to offer. Obviously, the definition of “something to offer” varies and is a different topic entirely. I engage in this behaviour with great results. If your woman perceives you as a joke it will be harder to get the desired response(s). The best way to train her to give the desired response is to walk out of the room/house and not look back. Never be afraid to walk away.
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““Kay” knew she was in the wrong. Way in the wrong.”
Former Alpha, I totally agree Kay was being awful. And dealing with conflict varies from individual to individual. This might have been a fight that the big guy and Kay had been having over and over – she gossiped, he asked her to knock it off, she persisted. I don’t buy the idea that women have to be treated with kid gloves, or that they’re princesses who don’t have to account for their behavior.
But for me, as an individual, I am not a yeller (I got divorced without once raising my voice, if that tells you anything). I can’t bear being screamed at and wouldn’t stay with a guy who shouted at me. So if I were in Kay’s position, I would have been deeply, deeply hurt and would have considered his response disproportionately angry.
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You don’t need to say or yell something that crude. Usually it makes you look like you’re as out of control, unmanageable, ill-tempered, childish, etc. Be the authority. One serious look, a tap on her hand, or a mere “enough” should be sufficient. Like a good friend once said, “you gotta control your women, and they should know before you even have to say a word.”
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Usu-Lurk, I may be logical, but I’m also as emotional as any female. That confrontation with my one-time admirer (who pursued-but-hated me), was terrible and like a punch in the stomach – and not deserved, though I think the situation we were in was my fault, the result of self-deception on my part. We had stopped “seeing” each other, but I still thought he was fond of me: I was wrong. I was truly furious with him for it, and not in a way that could have led to passionate embraces afterwards. The quietly vicious tone in which he spoke would have made that impossible; I suppose it was the tone as much as the words I found unforgiveable.
Watch how you use this stuff.
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PA, just remember this: whatever the current situation, it is likely to change very soon.
I’m not sure how this relates to what I wrote about my own personal situation. I agree that there is a cultural swing away from 90s’ political correctness, and with Roissy’s larger point that a man needs to establish early on that he will not ever have to be put in a situation where he has to address his wife/gf profanely in public.
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Shannon, it doesnt sound like the guy was screaming. There is a big difference between putting some bass in your voice (with some volume) and screaming.
Also, ladies, why not give an example of a man being authoritative in your life?
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Johnny five, very spot-on and insightful comments.
A woman also needs to know how to manage a man in a long-term relationship. How? Same way the man does it. Self-discipline, calmness and using your femininity (the way a man uses masculinity) in your favor — without being shrill, loud or bitchy.
And do it from a place of love and caring.
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23 Authority: perfectly put. Also applies to raising kids.
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Clio, that example is not really comparable to the one that roissy told.
This couple was happily dating. A little drama ensued, and he put an end to it.
Your experience was quite different. Like you said, that guys was pursuing and hating. Quite different.
Also, what about some of your gossipy/dramatic friends. What worked on them?
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I like pick up as much as the next guy. Or I will, when I actually start talking to girls.
But screaming obscenities at someone in public? Lots of people have figured out that relationship tactic: its called abuse.
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PA, you were asking about how much Commercials/TV actually represent the mewling betas in real-life. I am not sure how accurate they are, but I believe that they are becoming more and more inaccurate. That’s all.
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If sitcoms and TV commercials are an indicator of the cultural norm,* a typical man is a mewling coward who trembles at his wife’s/GF’s ever-present threat of embarassing him in front of other people.
(*and maybe they’re not — maybe they’re just a wish-fulfillment projection of TV studio executives)
When looking at male-female relationships as shown on television, keep in mind that the audiences for almost all forms of entertainment shows are predominately women. Portrayals of men as mewling cowards are what women want to see. Or, more accurately what programming executives (mostly men) think women want to see. These portrayals bear about as much connection to real life as does the way almost all criminals on police shows are white.
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Roissy, how would you describe the “STFU” moment?
Volume of his voice, scale of 1-10, with one being a whisper and 10 being that cliche movie scene where the guy grasps his dead lady love in his arms and screams, “Noooooooooo!”?
Tone of voice: Angry, authoritative, psycho, shrill, sarcastic, loud but calm?
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Shannon, it doesnt sound like the guy was screaming.
Roissy wrote that Kay’s boyfriend “thundered.”
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My gossipy/dramatic friends? Some of them had volatile relationships, terrible fights with their bfs, who might use that kind of language to express anger, and even repeated breakups, but those women usually did not go on to be happily married to their men. Most such couples wasted years of their lives in angry attempts at reconciliation, only to break up in the end. A few married each other, but not happily.
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Roissy, how would you describe the “STFU” moment?
Volume of his voice, scale of 1-10, with one being a whisper and 10 being that cliche movie scene where the guy grasps his dead lady love in his arms and screams, “Noooooooooo!”?
Tone of voice: Angry, authoritative, psycho, shrill, sarcastic, loud but calm?
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Peter, having a guy “thunder” is differnt than a guy “screaming”. Maybe I am just picking at semantics.
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Clio, thanks.
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Also applies to raising kids.
Yes, I’ve discussed this with my husband, and he is going to be the disciplinarian when we have kids. He can lower his voice and be very authoritative with it. That’s how he leads a group of 50+ people. I know I can’t do it, so he does the dirty job of keeping them in line. Division of labor.
How he sets boundaries with me is not by raising his voice, but by saying calmly, “I’m putting my foot down. You can’t do this.” And then letting me know he’s not joking. He also has used his larger physique to limit me when I get too rowdy like over-tickle him, but he has never hit me.
When he’s yelled in a thundering, booming voice was usually when I screamed back. When we were younger, and he was drinking, that happened more often. Nowadays we barely ever raise our voices at each other.
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Hope, nice comment on division of labor with kids. I also like your illustrative anecdotes. I’m married and I recognize a lot of what you say about marriage.
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Girlfriend: cluck, cluck, cluck (boring girl shit)
Me: Just shut the fuck up and suck my cock!
Girlfriend: … (aroused look on her face)
I whip it out and she proceeds to suck it like a hungry baby.
I haven’t said anything this harsh in public yet.
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It’s true that women like a man with a firm hand, but yelling and swearing at her — and that’s what it was if Roissy accurately described it as “thundering,” not merely speaking loudly and authoritatively — is over-hysterical. If he were acting from a position of true strength, a calm but firm, “Kay, get off this subject,” while looking her in the eye would have sufficed.
#18 DF
It sounds like you did that guy a favor by taking a disrespectful whore off of his hands. Gently nudging your woman into line is one thing, but if a girl is openly flirting with other guys in front of you, she’s a lost cause; the amount of vigilance required to keep a woman like that in line simply isn’t worth the effort. She’s a bush pig, and should be treated with as much regard.
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Yeah, that totally works. Went through the same scenario detailed in post, almost word for word, with the exact same results ( except for the marriage part, not that she didn’t try that too ).
Question is, why do I gotta keep asserting myself like that over and over? I never saw any learning from yelling. How many times did she need to “burn her hand on the stove”, metaphorically speaking, before she would not behave like that and make me yell?
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She’s a bush pig
Or, more likely, a bushless pig. Dump her.
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As an older married guy whose wife is expecting, potentially getting ready to raise a baby into a young woman … I read Roissy’s true nature of woman post to be a cautionary tale. How do you raise a woman to not accept such behavior? Is it even possible to raise a woman that does not think being publicly humiliated is part of an adult relationship? Is this story descriptive of the true nature of woman because we are simply wired the way we are wired (genetics) to please or lead or be submissive or dominant in a relationship. Is this the natural order of things?
I also want to know more about the relationship in the story. Roissy’s former roommate happily married the STFU girl, but does or did he regularly berate her in front of others? Did he have a temper with others or just her? Does or did he cheat on his wife/gf with impunity and rule his home with an iron fist in a velvet glove? Does she treat him as a king and hunger for his approval? In short, did he keep his woman in line in a manner indicative of the STFU interaction and did it continue into their happy marriage? Is his pimp hand strong, as the young people say?
I ask questions because I want to think that my future daughter – my genetic line – might not give up on a guy that behaved like this but would walk away from one that continued to treat her in this manner. We may be wired for reward, pleasure and mating behaviors but we appear to be wired for many things that we manage to overcome and suppress. Testing your woman with STFU when angry and using that as template for controlling her may not make for a good long-term partnership, even if it makes for hot make-up sex and a lot of freedom of choice for the man.
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Todd, when a ship runs aground, the sea has spoken. If your significant other doesn’t hear you, that’s usually time to move on.
Or, some people (like me) are so sensitive to shouting they immediately tune everything out once voices are raised. Those people simply won’t hear you until you lower your voice.
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“How do you raise a woman to not accept such behavior? Is it even possible to raise a woman that does not think being publicly humiliated is part of an adult relationship?”
Horrible Commenter, it all starts with you. If you and your wife deal with conflict in a calm and respectful manner, never yell at each other in her presence, and are affectionate, she’ll have a good model to work on.
And you’re respectful of women in general, as in no gawking at pretty girls, no sexist commentary, etc, she’ll grow up with a positive image of men and a strong idea of how she wants to be treated.
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…as in no gawking at pretty girls…
No gawking or no looking?
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#45 Peter
Or, more likely, a bushless pig. Dump her.
Peter, I realize that you’re doing this for a laugh and as a way to get a rise out of people — especially that one guy who keeps calling for your “banning”; is that even possible in blog comments? — but the joke is getting stale. It’s like the people who still make, say, Austin Powers references a decade since they were last found amusing. You may want to change tacks.
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#23, Authority: “You don’t need to say or yell something that crude. Usually it makes you look like you’re as out of control, unmanageable, ill-tempered, childish, etc. Be the authority. One serious look, a tap on her hand, or a mere “enough” should be sufficient.”
Spot on. Well said.
Speaking as an (apparently uppity) woman, *this* is the admonishment which would not only silence me, but silence me for the right reason: by indicating clearly that I was out of line (assuming I didn’t know that already) and cause me to feel remorse about my behavior.
Thundering *anything*, let alone obscenities, would not accomplish that goal. Quite the contrary: that kind of arrogant disrespect would incite immediate retaliation and would be an instant, irrevocable dealbreaker. “Never be afraid to walk away,” works for women, too.
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Roissy, how would you describe the “STFU” moment?
controlled anger. his tone of voice was deep, strong, and firm, and there was fire in his eyes. he never budged from his seated position.
Is this the natural order of things?
horrible commenter, if you are a good father your daughter will grow up with a strong sense of self and will be less likely to gravitate to assholes than daughters who grew up fatherless or with emotionally distant fathers. however, there are immutable facts of human nature, and one is that your daughter will be sexually attracted to dominant men. it’s just something you’ll have to learn to accept.
Roissy’s former roommate happily married the STFU girl, but does or did he regularly berate her in front of others?
he did not.
Did he have a temper with others or just her?
he did not have a temper problem. he rarely bared his teeth like that.
Does or did he cheat on his wife/gf with impunity and rule his home with an iron fist in a velvet glove?
i’m not aware of him ever cheating on her. he loved her.
Does she treat him as a king and hunger for his approval?
yes.
In short, did he keep his woman in line in a manner indicative of the STFU interaction and did it continue into their happy marriage?
no. if he showed anger like that all the time it would have lost its effectiveness.
Is his pimp hand strong, as the young people say?
yes.
the trick to keeping your woman in line when she does something to your disliking is to remain calm when she expects you to be angry and to show flashes of anger when she expects you to be docile.
a man should keep an even disposition when fighting with his grilfriend until the moment she feels like the tension has passed, and ONLY THEN should he unload on her. save your anger for the end, make it unpredictable, and all her attraction buttons will be pushed simultaneously.
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Thanks for the clarification, Roissy — I know I for one was picturing out-of-control anger, froth, etc. I’d still be angry and likely to walk out if I were Kay, but not necessarily frightened by the behavior.
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Sorry, but being told to “shut the fuck up” in front of friends?
That crosses the respect line.
Would any of the men here like it if you were saying stuff your girlfriend was uncomfortable with and she said that to you? I don’t think so.
There is a mature way to handle the situation – “Kay! That’s private” would have done the trick.
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It is indeed critical to keep your woman in line:
I think Roissy is sitting just to the left of the brunette.
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Reggie, we were instantly attracted to each other the moment she walked through the door. She was very feminine, vivacious, coquettish, and a solid 10 Latin girl with a tall lanky white boy that didn’t speak a lick of Spanish. Fortunately for me it is one of the languages in my repertoire but the boy was way over his head with this girl. She was 3 levels above him in looks and aside from his height he didn’t have many alpha traits. All of the more egregious events of the night were fueled by alcohol later on but the initial sober flirting was done with such skill for a 21 year old that I was too impressed to walk away.
“She’s a bush pig, and should be treated with as much regard.”
Please. As VK has so eloquently put, “girls all fuck the same, they just wear different clothes.”
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somewhat off topic but related to the Betaness that pervades television these days…
Roissy – Have you ever seen the sitcom “How I met your Mother”? I hate this show but my roommate and his GF love it cause they think it accurately portrays mid/late twenties dating and Im sure they also love all the corny relationship shtick that they “relate” to. Im serious – they actually laugh at a comical situation the characters are in and then look knowingly at each other in reference to some similar situation they also experienced. Its gross.
Anyway I watched several episodes with them and I couldnt look away much in the same way I cant look away from car wreck. You should get season 1 and watch the first two episodes. The main character is a constant, shocking and nauseating display of betaness that actually makes you uncomfortable..yet you cant stop watching. There is also the cliched Alpha played by Doogie Howser, making pick up attempts, and stereotypical engaged couple.
Would love to get your cultural and critical analysis of this show. Its great fodder for this blog. That would be a hilarious, informative and appropriate post.
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however, there are immutable facts of human nature, and one is that your daughter will be sexually attracted to dominant men. it’s just something you’ll have to learn to accept.
In other words, one should only have sons, or learn to have a stomach for daughters dating Roissy-ish type men in the future? Maybe one can pray for lesbians…
Does she treat him as a king and hunger for his approval?
yes.
I’m highly interested in this. As someone with obviously weird viewpoints, this female comes across as emotionally weak and lacking in personal confidence and strength. Why did he find that attractive?
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this female comes across as emotionally weak and lacking in personal confidence and strength.
she was actually a very strong woman, although leaning toward the emotional side of the logic-emotion spectrum. she loved him very much and liked to make him happy. she’s no different than anyone else — we all hunger for approval, it’s encoded in our brains. some of us are just better than others at hiding that desire under layers of charm and self-deception.
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and on the main post…they had a good relationship with a lot of mutual attraction, there was one blow-up and it didn’t harm the relationship. Naturally. Roissy jumping to the conclusion that the blow-up *made the relationship good* says more about him than it does about the couple.
Women generally don’t like being told to STFU, but that kind of thing is just not as big a deal as you’d think if the other stuff is firing on all cylinders.
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#56 DF
Reggie, we were instantly attracted to each other the moment she walked through the door. She was very feminine, vivacious, coquettish, and a solid 10 Latin girl with a tall lanky white boy that didn’t speak a lick of Spanish.
I’m not impugning your behavior; it’s hers I’m talking about. Nothing you said changes the fact that a girl who openly flirts with you in front of the guy she’s dating — whether or not he takes any action to keep her in line — is a disrespectful whore who’s not worth being in a relationship with. Sport-fucking, sure — and more power to you — but not dating seriously.
All of the more egregious events of the night were fueled by alcohol later on but the initial sober flirting was done with such skill for a 21 year old that I was too impressed to walk away.
Sure, it was her flirting skills that kept you enraptured, not the fact that she was a 10. Honestly, what would a girl that attractive actually have to do besides laugh at your jokes and touch your arm to keep you intrigued? I don’t mean to give you shit; I’m genuinely curious.
Please. As VK has so eloquently put, “girls all fuck the same, they just wear different clothes.”
Putting something in quotes doesn’t make it true. Do you honestly think that some women aren’t better in bed than others, physical attractiveness being equal? Besides, I wasn’t talking about her bedroom skills; I was talking about her worthlessness as a girlfriend given that she disrespected the guy she was with to flirt with you. If the relationship between her and the guy wasn’t an exclusive one, then of course my comments don’t apply, but that wasn’t the feeling I got from your first post.
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Roissy jumping to the conclusion that the blow-up *made the relationship good* says more about him than it does about the couple.
read for comprehension. i didn’t say the blow-up made the relationship good (in fact, i didn’t say anything directly about the health of the relationship in the post), i implied that his display of dominance, a display so vigorous and forceful that it would make most beta males wag a feeble finger in indignation as the pee stain spreads in their pants, turned her on sexually to the point that the walls were vibrating with their passionate tumult.
of course, his blow-up was a window into his character — he showed he was a dominant male and this undoubtedly contributed to the strength of their relationship. like it or not, women fall easily in love with men who often treat them with what society would deem disrespect.
mq, you’re starting to sound like dizzy8.
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Usually Lurking,
I’d heed Clio’s advice. Not all women will put up with this kind of thing, as I said above. In the same way she had to deal with this and her guy “lived to regret it,” I pulled this once and lived to regret it.
By the same token, some women will put up with cheating (Hillary) and others will sue your ass in divorce court. Some women (or people for that matter) have lower boiling points and eschew drama. They’ll walk out you and not return your calls, ever.
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My point was that in my experience, almost all girls (if not all) react positively to some display of dominance. It varies in form and fashion, but not in value.
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Women generally don’t like being told to STFU
women fall easily in love with men who often treat them with what society would deem disrespect.
Generalization etiquette. When a man makes a generalization out of an anecdote it is almost always true. When a woman makes a generalization out of an anecdote it is almost always false. That includes the one I just made.
If you’re female, pretend you’re male online. You’ll be taken more seriously. When I was in high school, I pretended to be a 30 year old domineering and successful male, and the respect I got from other men was more than I ever received as a giggly schoolgirl.
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she’s no different than anyone else — we all hunger for approval
Still, the way she’s doing displays her as a child looking for the love of a parent. It certainly doesn’t reflect what *I* would consider approval in an adult sense.
OTOH, I was a sycophantic bitch to Wellesley Queen until she told me to go fuck off. Besides, one would suspect that a strong woman wouldn’t tolerate “shut the fuck up” in public.
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I’d heed Clio’s advice. Not all women will put up with this kind of thing, as I said above. In the same way she had to deal with this and her guy “lived to regret it,” I pulled this once and lived to regret it.
two things.
1. you can’t just act authoritative; you have to BE authoritative.
if you ‘lived to regret it’, then i would lay long odds that your self-control was probably compromised at the time. many, if not most, males in today’s culture of endemic effeminacy are simply unable to raise their voices unless either they’ve completely lost it, as in stereotypical female anger. (as others have pointed out here, male physical power + feminine anger pattern = loss of control + potential for physical abuse) if you are one of those males, then big stop sign, you cannot take this credit.
the issue is that what was once the standard breed of male – he who can channel negativity in a manner that is forceful, yet authoritative – is a dying breed.
gossip is childish behavior, and should be met with the same type of parental-type authority as would the shenanigans of a teen or tween child.
2. don’t shift the goalposts.
this incident occurred in the friendly confines of a living room where everyone knew everyone else, and should not be extrapolated to anytime anywhere, as some posters here are wont to do.
yes, i understand that roissy issued the ‘in public’ challenge. but common sense, people: ‘in public’ doesn’t have to mean ‘at a four-star restaurant with the tuxedoed pianist’s barcarolle falling silent as the petty bourgeoisie gawks at a word they’ve not heard in decades.’ instead, roissy’s idea of ‘in public’ is more closely approximated by ‘walking in dupont circle within the earshot of ten to twenty strangers’. (also, don’t forget roissy’s immutable identity as a provocateur.) roissy, correct me if i am wrong.
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Hope, I worked at a large corporation when I was going to college. Well, one night class per week meant that I had to show up with “work clothes”. This meant a suit, tie, polishable shoes and overcoat. It was amazing to see how differently the professors treated me. Same Prof, different day, different clothes, different treatment.
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hope:
When a man makes a generalization out of an anecdote it is almost always true.
women dig jerks like men dig a hot bod. there comes a point, hope, where anecdotes add up to data. it just so happens that women’s anecdotes tend to be more self-serving and less grounded in a realistic appraisal of the facts than do men’s anecdotes. there is a good explanation for this social phenomenon — as pursuers in the hunt for sex and love, men need to know more about reality to achieve mating success than do passive-oriented women.
btw, i suspect asian girls are not as strongly attracted to jerks as women of other races, hence your opinion in this matter may be colored by self-bias.
DA:
Still, the way she’s doing displays her as a child looking for the love of a parent.
she wasn’t looking for approval the moment he angrily reprimanded her. she was simply taken in by his display of dominance. this dominance is very attractive to women, DA, and this fact of life bothers you for reasons that are all too obvious, so you attempt to smear her reaction as the behavior of an immature child, instead of recognizing it for what it is — the natural inclination of a woman in love to assume a posture of submissiveness to her dominant lover.
you may as well argue that it is immature and childish for a man to pop a boner when he sees a hot naked lady.
johnny five:
roissy, correct me if i am wrong.
correct.
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Johnny Five: “if you ‘lived to regret it’, then i would lay long odds that your self-control was probably compromised at the time. many, if not most, males in today’s culture of endemic effeminacy are simply unable to raise their voices…”
No, I just raised my voice at the wrong time about the wrong thing. You’re reading sociology into a simply situation. People have done this to me too and I’ve blown them off. Hell, the wrong joke at the wrong time can set someone off.
There are a lot of people — men and women — who are like bombs ready to explode. Sometime we accidentally detonate them.
Hasn’t anyone ever said something to you they may have thought was innoculous but earned them a punch or lifelong scorn? It’s happened to me.
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There’s only one problem with the suggested scenario. I 100% believe in Roissy’s asshole theory, but a corrolary needs to be added: how you start with a chick is usually how you end with a chick. If you start out beta with a chick, she will not react to you the way she would normally react to asshole treatment because you’ll have no credibility. She’ll view it as an act. To properly pull off the asshole maneurver, you’ve got to be DOUBLY asshole, asshole enough not only to establish alphaness but to also eradicate any previous beta impressions she has of you in her mind.
Like if I’m a blank slate with a chick and I yell STFU! it may work. If I’ve been a beta chump for months or years with a chick and then I try STFU!, she’ll either laugh in my face or call my bluff because she doesnt’ take me seriously. Not saying it can’t be done, just that it’s going to take way more work than if you established the right dynamic from the beginning. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all that…
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GREAT observation. I’d also add that women have a harder time separating and isolating their emotional and logical/analytical sides, so they are prone to letting their current moods and emotional states color their recollections of past events.
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i suspect asian girls are not as strongly attracted to jerks as women of other races, hence your opinion in this matter may be colored by self-bias.
I can’t speak for other Asian girls, but for myself I am attracted to dominance that is displayed in a protective, gentlemanly and magnanimous manner. Public confidence/hardness and private emotionality/softness I very much like in a man.
My opinion on the matter of sexual arousal concerning domination/submission is not from self-bias, but rather from observation and some research knowledge. As you noted yourself, a lot of hard-nosed lawyer women who are normally aggressive like to be dominated in the bedroom.
A man or woman who gets off on being dominated or humiliated may not seem submissive normally, but prefers a certain type of stimulation in the bedroom. A lot of powerful politicians, businessmen etc. have a submissive streak, which their usually docile wives cannot satisfy.
The scenario you described with the hot sex after the comment could well fall under that kink, which is far more provocative and deeply imprinting when a person is in love. However, it may well backfire if the other person is not neurochemically addicted, as DOBA pointed out.
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Sean Connery was interviewed by Barbara Walters on this very issue:
He caused an uproar in a December 1987 interview with Barbara Walters, in which he said it was okay for a man to slap a woman with limited force, assuming that it was required to calm her down or “keep her in line”.
The interview with Walters referenced remarks Connery had made in a November 1965 interview with Playboy magazine on the set of Thunderball. In Vanity Fair in 1993 he said: “There are women who take it to the wire. That’s what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack.”
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t.
how you start with a chick is usually how you end with a chick.
yeah, i agree with this. attempting an asshole maneuver on a girl when she’s been used to seeing the guy as a beta will likely backfire because of the blatant incongruency. he’ll come across as unstable and not in control of his temper. my advice for a beta who wants to start the long slog to enlightened assholery is to slowly adjust her to his new reality — almost like training a dog to find pleasure in getting thwacked on the rump with a rolled up newspaper. light taps at first.
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“I’d also add that women have a harder time separating and isolating their emotional and logical/analytical sides, so they are prone to letting their current moods and emotional states color their recollections of past events.”
Oh, gosh. My little feminine brain can’t wrap itself around that one. Won’t someone buy me a pretty hat?
I’d be tempted to post on here masquerading as a guy to see how different it is (I imagine very, very different), but my writing style/quirks are pretty recognizable. I do have a shifting IP address in my favor, though.
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“there comes a point, hope, where anecdotes add up to data. it just so happens that women’s anecdotes tend to be more self-serving and less grounded in a realistic appraisal of the facts than do men’s anecdotes. ”
And there’s nothing at all self-serving about men’s generalizations. Nuh huh, no sir. I’d wager if there was some sort of rating system, men and women would come in about equal in terms of self-serving overgeneralizations.
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Assertive vs. Dominating is difficult for some girls to discern.
Assertive will get you farther in the long run.
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males in today’s culture of endemic effeminacy are simply unable to raise their voices unless either they’ve completely lost it, as in stereotypical female anger. (as others have pointed out here, male physical power + feminine anger pattern = loss of control + potential for physical abuse)
I remember one blogger writing about how that may be the source of some of the extreme violence among poor black men from single family homes.
she wasn’t looking for approval the moment he angrily reprimanded her. she was simply taken in by his display of dominance.
I don’t see what’s so attractive about this about this display of dominance, since it comes off as a display on anger, but I am a simple beta male, not a woman.
this dominance is very attractive to women, DA, and this fact of life bothers you for reasons that are all too obvious, so you attempt to smear her reaction as the behavior of an immature child, instead of recognizing it for what it is — the natural inclination of a woman in love to assume a posture of submissiveness to her dominant lover.
I learned that from Wellesley Queen, the older woman, and from other female friends and acquaintances over the past several years. I still don’t comprehend it the attractiveness of the dominant male, but I’m well aware that even the most tomboyish male who routinely jokes about males likes the dominance of a male. Most of the explanations from the females have boiled down to some feeling of safety and security with their boyfriends and spouses. Even some who come across as soft hearted betas seem to have their girlfriends gushing about how they feel secure with him.
Regardless, the submissiveness boggles my mind, and I’m not exactly the candidate for a beta male feminist given my large collection of porn. One would suspect that human nature would fight submissive impulses, especially with displays of strong dominance by another, or am I overspeculating and conflating different traits?
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78 whatemethink
“Assertive will get you farther in the long run.”
Correction; assertive gets you farther in the short run too, but only an intelligent, discerning, mature, free thinking, evolved, aware human being would comprehend that. It’s way too subtle for the masses to comprehend. Remember that TV is geared to a 12 year old maturity level for a reason.
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74 Jay
““There are women who take it to the wire. That’s what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack.””
Commenting on your Sean Connery quote. I would correct Mr. Connery by saying they absolutely do NOT WANT a smack. Be realistic. What woman goes about thinking “I want a man to smack me. What can I do or say to make a man smack me?”?? I tell you, it does NOT happen. Also, a woman will never forget and will never truly forgive a man who hits her. She’ll find a way to get back at him.
But the truth is; they are ASKING for it. There is a huge difference. They are asking with their expectation of being smacked. It’s NOT a conscious thing and to say it is, is pure idiocy. What woman GETS smacked and then likes it? I tell you;, none. Otherwise they would not “fall in line”, they would continue consciously trying to get hit and laugh and enjoy it!!!
Basically Connery is saying he’s a puppet to a woman who is “asking” for it–he has no power to resist. She is controlling him, pure and simple. He’s reacting, not responding to a woman who at a much deeper level does not want to fuck up the relationship and wants to know her limits–but not THAT way. Give me a break. Does he then enjoy smacking women? I doubt he enjoys it either. Ridiculous.
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like it or not, women fall easily in love with men who often treat them with what society would deem disrespect.
Whose society? In my experience women fall out of love or don’t fall in love with men who suck up to them. Mild disrespect is beneficial to some since it at least does keep you from screwing up by sucking up.
I really fail to see what’s the special thing with women. You see the same thing in any situation where one person secretly or not so secretly desires the other’s company for some superficial reason. For the easiest example, a celebrity is going to be surrounded by idiots who think they’re going to gain the friendship by sucking up. That’s not “respect”. That’s broadcasting your feeling that you believe the other person isn’t a person but some mythological creature.
It’s the same thing, reminds me of all the paladins of virtue who’ve kept complaining that I should give special “respect” to women just because they’re women ever since the first time they spotted me pinching ass at the schoolyard. That’s not “respect”. That’s *disrespect*.
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Sorry Sindy, You’re wrong.
Some (not all women) will definitely push for physical confrontation. I’ve dealt with numerous cases of domestic violence and while some men are really nasty–they usually have hot partners– it never ceases to amaze me how far some women will push to get a “physical response”.
One of my patients is a Hells Angel. He has a very violent temper which he is able to control just barely. Anyway, he and his partner have an argument, he feels he is about to loose it so he leaves the room, she follows him arguing with him. He walks out the house, she follows him abusing him, he walks down the street, she still continues to follow and abuse him. He walks for about half a mile down the road with the woman still abusing him when he finally breaks and slaps her. She runs off and calls the police he goes to jail for a few days. This cycle is repeated over and over and finally he has enough and decides to leave the girl.
She is still stalking him.
I used to believe the feminist trope that these women were victims, but I’m less inclined to believe it now. I have no idea how many times I have tried to get a woman into a refuge only to find at the last minute she has “decided to give her man another chance” and doesn’t want to go. I also noted that women who were married to non abusive betas had no problem in leaving their partners, while women married to abusive alphas always did. I am now convinced that while the women may not enjoy a beating they sure as hell enjoy the machismo.
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#83 Slumlord
Interesting, but what criteria were you using to define alpha vs. beta? I know it wasn’t your intent, but taken only in the context of your post, it sounds as if you’re defining men as alphas or betas solely on whether or not they beat their partners. (Alphas do, betas don’t.)
Tangent: I’ve found that the women I’ve slept with who were especially enthusiastic about sex enjoyed being dominated in bed (nothing crazy, just the usual pinning them down, hair-pulling, and spanking), while the women who didn’t seem as interested in sex likewise didn’t really enjoy being dominated in that way. There are definite parallels here.
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Hah, now let us hearken; hearken back to alphier times.
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/15/vintage-sexist-coffe.html
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I think that the element that Roissy, and all the men commenting on this post, are leaving out is whether or not the woman involved with a “dominant” man is herself a dominant woman. I know you fellows have defined it so that only pretty woman are “alphas” – and that all that defines alpha-ness for a woman is being pretty – but what about two equally pretty women who go head to head for a man? Which of them is going to win? It will probably be the one who is most “dominant”, even if she has to pretend to be submissive (or really feel submissive, who knows?) when she is with a man.
So – take a dominant woman involved with a dominant man: she is the woman who will try to goad and provoke him in order to make him prove that he is stronger than she is. A less dominant woman will wilt and fade out of the picture when she encounters abusive treatment; a more dominant woman will try to see if she can still somehow “win” the situation, even if it means provoking the man into hitting her. That, you see, is her proof (paradoxically) that she has won: she gets him upset enough to hit her, he goes to jail, she has embarrassed him. Etc. She is dominant.
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So you get to yell shut the fuck up at a woman because you have some need to keep her “in line.” And that doesn’t make you needy or controlling? And is she allowed to scream at you when she wants you to do something? Or would that make her a nagging whore or one of your other charming phrases?
You don’t understand the true nature of women. You understand the true nature of abusive relationships.
Your blog is hurting America, dude. Stop it.
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“Public confidence/hardness and private emotionality/softness I very much like in a man.’
Hope
Reggie,^^^ this is what I like about a man who loves me more.
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Speaking of alpha males, this is ex-gymnast Alina Kabayeva (24) who is rumored to be Vladimir Putin’s bride to be: http://i28.tinypic.com/20jn3tk.jpg
I’m not buying it though.
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Another pic of the future Mrs Putina: http://img1.qq.com/sports/20050617/1880759.jpg
Vladimir P. is said to have divorced his wife in February.
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83 Slumlord
” it never ceases to amaze me how far some women will push to get a “physical response”.”
This does not prove at all that they consciously want to be hit. Even if they–as you put it “push for it”–night and day, it still does not mean they want to be hit. They may in fact have a very deep FEAR of being hit; a deep fear of violence. I know about this from experience. I was emotionally and physically abused for over 10 years by my ex-husband. I played the victim, until I realized many years later that my fear was bringing out the worst in him. I was raised in an environment of deep fear. It was my doing more than his. I know that is an extremely unpopular viewpoint, but I see it very clearly now.
Again…the FEAR is what powerfully attracts the “victimizer”. The greater the fear, the greater the likelihood of abuse and the worse it will be. Her FEAR has greater attracting power than his desire NOT to hit her. A man must not allow a woman to push him to abusing her. It’s that simple. We are animals after all, with instincts that can be triggered.
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your permutations of platitudes get you the open invitation to the $19.99 all u can eat buffet. but shitty food is still shitty food.
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The behavior displayed by Mr. STFU and his submissive girlfriend is a classic socio-biological pattern that is very typical in this country (and much of the world).
I can tell you, however, that this is not common and would be totally unacceptable behavior for most women of East Asian (oriental) descent. For the most part (there ARE exceptions), East Asian women do not go for this subservience to the alpha male socio-biological game that Roissy’s blog is all about.
This is the reason why I am married to one and why I respect East Asian women more than the others.
You see, the essential component that is utterly missing in the discussions in this blog is respect. I do not believe that love can exist without respect.
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East Asian women do not go for this subservience to the alpha male socio-biological game
Speaking as an East Asian, I think we are more submissive and weak in public and more dominant and strong in private. My husband is very outgoing, the talker and negotiator in public, and speaks for me a lot of the times, while I am quiet as a mouse. But in the house I take charge.
I think Asian women have a very strict run the household way of doing things, which can be a stifling thing for the children. Being raised by an Asian mother is no walk in the park, but too much leniency spoils the children — there needs to be moderation in everything.
I do not believe that love can exist without respect.
Agreed. But I know what Roissy will say — that respect must be earned, and love is not unconditional. I think to an extent that is true, but I’ll always be too much of a romantic to fully believe it.
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83 dear slumlord,
“I am now convinced that while the women may not enjoy a beating they sure as hell enjoy the machismo.”
Not true. They don’t enjoy. You completely misuse the word, enjoy. They are wretched human beings, in deep shame and despair. To say a woman can “enjoy the machismo” of a man who beats her is insulting to the woman. She would leave and does when she gathers enough courage and feeling of self worth to do so. In my case it was the positive attention of a male coworker who lured me away and was the catalyst to my leaving my abusive husband. He had previously threatened to take my car keys, credit cards, etc. and would not let me leave with anything but the clothes on my back. I had no family, as he had separated me from them for 10 years, and no friends.
I was deeply ashamed of my situation and basically hated myself, him, and my life. I wanted to kill myself, but fell in love with another man and it gave me the strength to leave. To say that I enjoyed his machismo is pure idiocy though I forgive you, because you’ve never been in my situation and cannot know, but can only speculate and make assumptions as to why women have such adifficult time leaving an abusive situation.
I finally had the strength to leave him and would have walked out the door stark naked if I had to. It crushed him, not that I am proud of that. I have no hatred for the man at all, and in fact will always love him in some way. He never wanted to be an abuser anymore than I wanted to be abused. As a therapist I hope you understand that clearly.
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94 hope
but I’ll always be too much of a romantic to fully believe it.
an old man, as sage as he was drunk at the time, once gave me the following words of wisdom: ‘never say never – and while you’re at it, never say always.’
the cynical little tyler-durden-esque doppelganger that lives inside me enjoys waiting for starry-eyed declarations of everlasting love to meet their inevitable experimentum crucis, once the harsh light of day clears the starry eyes.
but, i wish you luck – and happiness, of the everlasting kind that will almost certainly never warm my itinerant heart.
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84 Reggie.
There are abusive alphas and non abusive alphas. I personally find the physical violence towards a weaker person repulsive. I also find the personal behaviour of STFU man repulsive but the fact is that some women get turned on by this type of behaviour. It’s a regrettable fact and but call it as I see it. I also find women who get turned on by that kind of behaviour repulsive.
83 Sindy.
Low self esteem is a problem with many women, it is not particular to women who get abused. Women with low self esteem have no problems leaving non abusive betas,be they broke, alone or in tow with dependent children. In fact there is always a steely determination to leave. Women with low self esteem can avoid dangerous areas of town at night, ensure basic personal safety, escape from a window if the house is on fire, in other words they are capable of rational action. But there is always an excuse as to why they cannot leave an abusive alpha.
She would leave and does when she gathers enough courage and feeling of self worth to do
He had previously threatened to take my car keys, credit cards, etc. and would not let me leave with anything but the clothes on my back.
Any woman who lives in any moderately sized town in the Western World has access to refuges and the sympathy of social workers, law enforcement officials and the general community. I find it difficult to believe that you could not have walked into a refuge and found support had you tried.Though it is true that there may be psychological reasons as to why you could not leave. It therefore was not an issue of not having the ability to distance yourself from violence due to lack of access to the appropriate services rather it was a failure to use the local services due to psychological reasons.
In my case it was the positive attention of a male coworker who lured me away and was the catalyst to my leaving my abusive husband.
In other words you left the man you couldn’t leave when you gained the affections of another man.
Again…the FEAR is what powerfully attracts the “victimizer”.
He never wanted to be an abuser anymore than I wanted to be abused
Bullshit. Your ex was an asshole. Beating up weaker people is always a sign of an asshole: The structuralist interpretation of the dynamic of your relationship maybe useful for impressing your friends in wymyns studies but it is disconnected from reality. There could be thousands of reasons why he enjoyed inflicting verbal and physical violence. Evil does not need a reason or has to make any sense at all. He was not a victim, he was bad.
I have no hatred for the man at all, and in fact will always love him in some way
Let me get this straight; You still have affection for the man who treated you badly? Doesn’t this just confirm Roissy’s point?
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In Arab cultures, men beating women is pretty common and widely accepted–accepted enough that it happens on the street without apology and with no visits from the cops (I’ve seen it). Sounds nasty and unfair and Arab-like, but there’s a flip side. For their part, the women yell and scream and howl like banshees at their husbands in a way that westerners can barely imagine (I’ve seen that too). Both behaviours are beyond the pale for westerners, but the freedom of men to beat their women in Arab-world is matched by the women’s freedom to flip out on men like a burqa-ed berserker. If a woman acted that way in the west, she’d be committed as a psycho. If the man acted that way, he’d be jailed as a wife-beater.
They’ve worked out their bargain, and we’ve worked out ours.
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97 slumlord
“But there is always an excuse as to why they cannot leave an abusive alpha.”
The excuse is mental illness; something that runs in my family which I’ve been able through sheer force of will to overcome. My mother was neglectful to the point in nearly cost me my life at the age of four years old. Ironically my husband saw how damaging my family was to me and wanted to rescue me. I was his “diamond in the rough” and being with him was akin to being in a cult. See “Mosquito Coast” for an accurate representation of his character.
“He was not a victim, he was bad.”
All I’m saying is that he didn’t consciously set out to be bad. He was in as much despair as I was. Just because he bullied me, does not mean he enjoyed it. That’s not to say he didn’t get some sense of “power” but it’s a very poor substitute for real power. It makes you angry that I have compassion for him. He suffered severe chest pains after I left him. He was devastated. Why would I want to punish him further? He is a human being and does not deserve to be condemned forever for something that he’s already suffered tremendously for.
“I have no hatred for the man at all, and in fact will always love him in some way
Let me get this straight; You still have affection for the man who treated you badly? Doesn’t this just confirm Roissy’s point?”
Loving does not mean turned on by. I went from one extreme to another with my second husband who was very passive and beta. We split up for entirely different reasons, but I still love him too. We are good friends and he’s since remarried, whereas I have no contact whatsoever with my abusive first husband.
Contrary to what roissy believes, real love is unconditional. Sexual attraction is conditional, infatuation is conditional, romantic love is conditional; real love is not. Unconditional love is non-sexual or rises above sex. You say I still have “affection” for the man. Not affection; love. Affection is more a sentimental feeling, and is in fact more conditional to the moment, the way I experience it. I have no desire whatsoever to have any contact with him and haven’t since we divorced.
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Contrary to what roissy believes, real love is unconditional.
if you gained 900 pounds, do you think your boyfriend would continue to feel REAL LOVE for you?
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100 Roissy
“if you gained 900 pounds, do you think your boyfriend would continue to feel REAL LOVE for you?”
In my experience men are less capable of unconditional love in general. I would expect him to dump my fat ass and never look back.
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Roissy, I think you are missing the point of what “Sindy” was saying: Sexual attraction is conditional, infatuation is conditional, romantic love is conditional; real love is not. You may think this is false, but you need to consider the full range of the meaning of the word “love”, as distinct from desire or infatuation, in order to rebut it convincingly.
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(Not too related but…) Alias Clio, as a Christian, do you agree with these translations of the Greek word agape?
Agape and the verb agapao are used extensively in the Septuagint as the translation of the common Hebrew term for love which is used to denote sexual desire, affection for spouse and children, brotherly love, and God’s love for humanity. Agape received a broader usage under later Christian writers as the word that specifically denoted “Christian” love or “charity” (1 Corinthians 13:1–8), or even God Himself (1 John 4:8, Theos ein agape, “God is Love”).
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alias, i meant what i wrote. real love (and let’s not get too mystical about this. we’re still biological organisms) is dependent on conditions, just like lust and romantic love. people fall out of REAL LOVE all the time, and it is because certain conditions have stopped being met.
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roissy “people fall out of REAL LOVE all the time,”
Your answer is in your statement. Romantic love is what you fall into, real love is what you rise into.
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Romantic love is what you fall into, real love is what you rise into.
semantics are a piss poor way to argue your point.
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Love is a gravitational pull that you feel to another person. It runs deeper than genitalia/desire/affection/programming. It’s when someone is a part of who you are…I’ve lost my affection or respect for people, but I’ve never stopped loving anyone. Someone I loved fifteen years ago could call asking me for bail money, and I’d do it.
Real love is calmer, and thereby not as interesting.
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Well, Roissy, I wasn’t trying to nit-pick with you over definitions. I only meant to suggest that perhaps other forms of love that are not sexual in intention can indeed be unconditional: mother-love, for example, and friendship. And perhaps a love that began as sexual love can be transmuted into another form in which appearance, for example, is less significant.
Of course even those other forms of love tend not be entirely unconditional – but the conditions upon which they rest differ somewhat from those of sexual love.
Hope, you are asking me a question about a subject I don’t know at all – Biblical Greek and its usage. What you say sounds like what I have heard from other etymologists and exegetists, but that’s all I can tell you.
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Someone I loved fifteen years ago could call asking me for bail money, and I’d do it.
key word: “loved”.
Real love is calmer, and thereby not as interesting.
you are using a definition of REAL LOVE that is unfamiliar to just about everyone.
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I have said those words many times to my girlfriend. The great part of it is that she actually listens and lowers her head in shame. Most of the time girls are too busy thinking that their opinion matters, and it takes moments like this to show what her place in this world really is.
I did catch flack from my then beta friends.(one of them is finally seeing the truth behind my words, Patrick Bateman) I told them that sometimes you have to say what you feel and not care of the results. The result… she stayed.
Make sure that you dont use it every day, because then it loses effect. Make sure that you do not say it infront of her friends either, because then they have ammo against you. You never want more than one woman mad at you for the same reason at the same time.
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Still waxing anthropological: in mediaeval Latin, the word “diligere” meant “to be fond of, have affection for”, and “amare” meant what we call “to be in love with” as in “romantic love”. I believe they even had a modified word “adamare” to mean “falling in love”.
The point is: they had ENTIRELY different words to describe the two emotions. And they were right…they were entirely, completely, utterly different emotions, different states of being, really. Diligere (diligentia) can last, it can be for lots and lots of people at the same time, it burns slowly but steadily. Amare (amor) is something that hits hard, burns bright, and fades.
When couples move from amare to diligere, the one love doesn’t transmute into the other. Amare DIES, and the underlying diligere can then emerge and take the lucky couple into their twilight years together. But it doesn’t grow out of amare. It’s its own thing. If friends become lovers, their diligere doesn’t turn into amare, amare is born, it comes into existence. If love fades and there’s no friendship there to take up the slack, its divorce court, affairs, and bye bye mon cowboy.
Amare (amor) lasts at most a few years. The human brain just isn’t built to sustain that type of passion, that insanity. But it is as real a love as mother-love, love of country, and all the other loves that do last. It’s not inferior to any other kind of love; it’s its own thing, with its own rules, its own genius, its own arc, its own doom.
When a man feels amor for a woman, that’s True Love, ladies. It’s the deepest, truest, best, most intense feeling a man can have for a woman. There ain’t nothin’ better out there. Erotic love is the real deal. If you’re looking for something “more real” from men, you won’t find it. Not in this life, anyway.
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“key word: “loved”.”
You’re misintrepeting – I loved them then, therefore, I love them enough now to bail them out.
“you are using a definition of REAL LOVE that is unfamiliar to just about everyone.”
Never pegged you as such a diehard conformist, Roissy. People have been debating the nature of love for as long as there have been, well, people.
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106 roissy “semantics are a piss poor way to argue your point.”
Logic is a piss poor way to define love.
107 roissy to shannon “you are using a definition of REAL LOVE that is unfamiliar to just about everyone.”
You make the assumption that if you don’t understand something everyone else is confused. Granted human unconditional love is not of the same enormous quality as “God” or universal love (I’m guessing you don’t believe in that either) but it’s as close as we can get and still is a higher form of love than any of the others already mentioned and a love you personally don’t seem to have experienced.
110 Natural003 “Make sure that you dont use it every day, because then it loses effect.”
Your so-called luck will run out one day. The fact that your girlfriend lowers her head in shame? An unhealthy dynamic if going on there.
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All right, Patrickh, I accept your correction about the possibility that erotic love can be “transmuted” into friendship. That was a bad choice of words on my part: I believe you are right, and that the two are quite different states which cannot grow one from another.
Are you certain, though, that Eros dies so completely in love? I can’t say, because my own experience is too peculiar to be able to provide me with any insight. To go by what others tell me, although the sheer manic intensity of passionate love, esp. as expressed in sexual encounters, must necessarily die down over time, it doesn’t have to burn out altogether. In other words, the fire may go from a blaze to glowing logs – but it may continue to burn at that level indefinitely, for some lucky couples.
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114 alias clio
Lust can be transformed into love. Tantra teaches that. Tantra; a teaching which has been suppressed by those wanting control over us, knows the way. Tantra has also been used as an excuse to indulge in sex as opposed to suppress it, which is just another imbalance. The point is to be exactly in the middle between indulgence and suppression.
Historically the pendulum swings from one extreme to another. Tantra teaches sex as a form of meditation. Meditation as in sitting in the lotus position and chanting “OM’ is not my cup of tea, but sex? Yeah, I can get into that as a form of meditation and do, but have yet to find a partner who has the same desire.
In case roissy is reading this; take note, Tantra does not make sex boring. Oh my God, NO. Men having multiple orgasms, women ejaculating, sex for hours?
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This might be good. Am just learning myself. Tantra is the real deal but there is a lot of bullshit out there in regards to it. The truth has been obscured, polluted, misunderstood…etc…..
http://www.tantricsecrets.com/
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Alias Clio
I’m surprised, as a Catholic you should know that there is no such thing as unconditional love. If you don’t follow the rules you go to the hot place. God demands certain minimum standards of behaviour before he will accept you.
Women would be wise to follow this example, while your affections may be spread far and wide, make certain that the only people you let into your kingdom have certain minimum standards. Wife beaters fail the test.
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Slumlord, your theology is not what it could be. God’s love is unconditional; the main question is, do you accept it, or not? In theory at least, Catholic theology holds that there is no such thing as a sin that cannot be forgiven, if the sinner asks for forgiveness. God doesn’t demand “certain minimum standards of behaviour”; He demands that you repent. From His point of view, no human person is inherently worthy of salvation; it cannot be purchased by good behaviour.
And I feel absurd discussing the matter here, so perhaps if you care to pursue it further, you can come visit me at my blog.
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118 alias
“God’s love is unconditional; the main question is, do you accept it, or not?”
I accept it. God has unfortunately been given devilish qualities by humans looking to explain their misery, and those seeking to capitalize on and monopolize God power.
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[…] Keeping Your Woman In Line. Reports from the […]
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Clio
(I’m commenting now because Roissy linked to this post in his current one, and so I re-read it and the comments at least so far as this:)
“Usu-Lurk, I may be logical, but I’m also as emotional as any female. That confrontation with my one-time admirer (who pursued-but-hated me), was terrible and like a punch in the stomach – and not deserved, though I think the situation we were in was my fault, the result of self-deception on my part. We had stopped “seeing” each other, but I still thought he was fond of me: I was wrong. I was truly furious with him for it, and not in a way that could have led to passionate embraces afterwards. The quietly vicious tone in which he spoke would have made that impossible; I suppose it was the tone as much as the words I found unforgiveable.”
First let me say that I agree that angrily shouting those words would be way less effective than just stating them with firm authority, only a little above a normal conversational level. At the level of addressing the group. But that’s what I imagined when reading Roissy’s words. I can understand that women, who often/usually HATE being yelled at, were likely to jump to an angry shout conclusion, but if you’d heard it, it would be very clear which way it was delivered. Part of why I assumed it was the firm and not yelling delivery is that the guy’s 6’7 and talking to a girl that loves him. He is presented as having no dominance problems at all.
But now let me turn to your language quoted above. Kay was this big guys in love with him gf. The guy who barked at you was a suitor you had rejected but was still hanging on — he was too beta for you. He was in fact a LJBF guy in your mind, though you admit you hadn’t really delivered that message to him. Women HATE being authoritatively barked at by betas for some “transgression” and TOLD to get into line. Just hate, hate hate it. I think they always have but they feel especially privileged to feel that way in this very feminist culture programmed America/Canada.
All of this is a gut thing. But it could be encapsulated by the thought: “What right does HE THINK HE HAS to talk to ME like that??!!” You might have the same official stance to an alpha guy who you were in love with and really wanted to got to the next level with — but not really in practice.
Thing is part of what makes guys alpha is being able to do stuff like short exhortation.
In some circumstances it might have been better to say “Kay. Stop.” No please in words or tone. If it was a crowd full of women who didn’t know the couple very well esp., that would have been better most likely. But it wasn’t. It was his male housemates.
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My husband, L, when we were dating, went drinking with a guy who’d been backstabbing me at work.
I was pissed, so pissed.
“How can you go drinking with this asshole when you know he’s a smarmy little chimp, when he’s been hurting ME!?”
He shrugged a little, said, “Your business with S is your business with S; my friendship with him goes further back than that.”
So he went out with S.
When he came back, reeking of scotch, I threw a bag of dirty laundry at him (this story lives on in private jokes LONG after the fact) and he grabbed me by the wrists and said, “You can just go back to your place if you’re going to throw shit at me.”
After walking all over every guy I’d ever wanted before that time, this was a major curveball.
So we made up. Six months later we were married. Six years later we’re still going strong.
True to form, though, S spread all of my husband’s dirty laundry out all over town. Some “friendship.”
L never spoke to him again. So, I was right, after a fashion. But I never said “I told you so” to L.
What a shame it would have been to let an argument over an idiot like S get in the way of love.
In the long run, L was absolutely right not to let my anger toward S interfere with making his own judgment. Even if I was right all along. LOL.
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Man… so this is reality. And it’s been all around me, too! Good god, women are evil, stupid whores… these stories make me want to go out and cut some whore up with an axe.
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yeah, i agree with this. attempting an asshole maneuver on a girl when she’s been used to seeing the guy as a beta will likely backfire because of the blatant incongruency.
I have to disagree with you there Roissy. The incongruency will just make her shit test you more before she believes it. Think of a parent introducing authority to a previously uncontrolled belligerent child. First they fight you x2, keep in character, then you win.
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[…] game can best be summarized by Roissy’s post here. It’s about keeping your woman in line. I’ve found that the longer I’m in an LTR the more I use mean/aloof asshole game […]
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Roissy, you’re the shit!
🙂
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[…] Mz. Hax, chicks really do dig jerks. They love jerks so much that the bed bounces off the floor when they […]
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every time i get dissapointed in the posters endless bombardment of auditions for Cleverness! II!!
, i return to the glory days to reflect upon the foundational truth of this article
that, and how much I’d like to repeatedly date lemonexx
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10000% accurate.
Feminists may suck my cock, backways.
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Shannon. Sindy. Shut the fuck up.
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