you can’t judge a book by its cover.
it’s what’s on the inside that counts.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Toss another three cliches in the trash. This article talks about studies showing that ugly people commit more crime:
“We find that unattractive individuals commit more crime in comparison to average-looking ones, and very attractive individuals commit less crime in comparison to those who are average-looking,” claim Naci Mocan of the University of Colorado and Erdal Tekin of Georgia State University.
Mocan and Tekin analyzed data from a federally sponsored survey of 15,000 high-schoolers who were interviewed in 1994 and again in 1996 and 2002. One question asked interviewers to rate the physical appearance of the student on a five-point scale ranging from “very attractive” to “very unattractive.”
How rude of people to agree on what’s ugly and what isn’t!
These economists found that the long-term consequences of being young and ugly were small but consistent. Cute guys were uniformly less likely than averages would indicate to have committed seven crimes including burglary and selling drugs, while the unhandsome were consistently more likely to have broken the law.
Very attractive high school girls were less likely to commit six of the seven crimes, while those rated unattractive were more likely to have done six of seven, controlling for personal and family characteristics known to be associated with criminal behavior.
It’s practically a biblical injunction that thou shalt not make presumptions about the character of people based on their physical attributes. Yet here is proof that yes, we can make useful generalizations about people with the bad luck to be born with unappealing faces. Whether the ugly face itself causes criminal tendencies or the social disadvantages steer an ugly person into crime is irrelevant to the wisdom of judgment. If an ugly person is more likely to do A, people around him will respond by doing B.
Some other things you can assume about ugly people and be right more often than not:
Bitter. (wouldn’t you be if your condition was the last acceptable form of public contempt?)
Less intelligent. (smart guys and hot chicks mate assortatively)
Crappy social skills. (socially adept guys tend to have children with hot chicks)
Below the median income. (no promotions for you!)
Depressed. (imagine a life of constant, gnawing pain)
Lonely. (no one likes to be around suicidally depressed people)
Hard up. (girls and guys, though the ugly threshold for hard up-ness is lower for men)
Smells bad. (when a shower isn’t going to help your cause, why bother?)
Introverted. (naturally extroverted ugly people learn the hard way that no one wants to party with them. they eventually hide in their apartments all the time)
Belligerent. (an ugly person who doesn’t retreat to solitude and braves public scorn starts to expect the worst from people and defaults to hatemode)
There’s a reason we associate certain personality traits with physical ugliness. Grendel and Gollum ask you to understand.
Everyone knows pretty people do crimes. They don’t need to, as everything is handed to them on a silver platter, but they do, in fact, do crimes. Just for the heck of it. The difference is, there’s no consequence to their crimes. Because they’re pretty. Prettyprettypretty. Ah. Say it with me now…
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Ugly people can’t catch a break.
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go to any police dept website that displays mugshots, and i think by large they are ALL ugly!!
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Chicago Prostitution Arrests: http://www.chicagopolice.org/ps/list.aspx
Key West Arrests:
http://www2.keysso.net/ArrestReports/ArrestLog1.htm
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The movie “The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly” should be renamed the “The Good and The Bad” since saying ugly is redundant
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Question: Is it against the law to discriminate against ugly people in the workplace?
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This is a pretty fascinating topic. And there is hope for some of the uglier folk. There is a lot of evidence that some basic nutrition has a huge effect on things like: The shape of your jaw/jowls, the type, look and spacing of your teeth, the shape of your face (i.e. round, or narrow) and your skin.
Granted, this would mean that the young and dumb (and ugly) would need to know these nutritional requirements and implement them before conception, during the pregancy and through most of the child’s youth.
But, there is hope.
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Anyone going to make the obvious reference to the rates of blacks in prison and the denigration of black skin as “ugly”?
Or the study where black kids choose white dolls over black dolls because whites are good?
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while this correlation is certainly not completely spurious, we shouldn’t forget the following EXTREMELY pervasive, and obvious, confounding variable:
good-looking people get away with more.
if these transgressions – especially minor ones – are measured by how many people are punished for them, then the confounding is enormous.
for instance (i have no empirical data to back this up), i have no doubt that hot girls shoplift more than do plain or ugly girls – but i would wager a large sum that the girls punished for shoplifting are disproportionately plain or ugly. the same is probably true for male rapists as well.
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^^
disclaimer: the above post does not imply that rape does not have the same degree of turpitude as shoplifting.
(this disclaimer is aimed at a few posters here who would otherwise almost certainly make that inference)
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The corollary to this phenomenon is that if you find an ugly person in a prestigious position, you can bet that they know their business. It would be interesting to compare the IQs of, say, ugly vs. attractive doctors.
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When speaking of attractiveness we tend to focus solely on women because they are so heavily judged by their appearance as potential mates. However, male attractiveness also has reproductive benefits. Apparently, studies have shown that handsome men have sperm with higher motility and morphology, i.e., better sperm. (Evolution and Human Behavior (vol 24, p 199))
Man, it must suck to be ugly.
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Less intelligent.
Be careful with this one. Looks seem to correlate with intelligence up to a certain point and then crash back down. In my area there are 3 major schools, an ivy caliber university, a very good flagship state school and a mediocre state school. I very rarely see a hot girl at my school and I would go as far as saying that half the women are practically invisible. The girls at the good state school are much hotter than here and the mediocre school is full of girls who deserve hours of face fucking. I live closer to the mediocre school.
I would guess the girls at the mediocre school have an IQ ~1 std. dev. from the mean, the girls at the good state school ~1.5 std. dev. and the girls here ~2.5.
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It would be interesting to compare the IQs of, say, ugly vs. attractive doctors.
good point, bad example.
your point would be much more forceful in fields that have a strong bullshit component, like law, psychology, etc.: an ugly lawyer is probably more likely to know the law well, and so forth.
the more objective the field, the less likely the inverse correlation between looks and wherewithal. in fields such as physics and engineering, there is almost certainly no correlation.
medicine is somewhere in the middle; if ugly surgeons are indeed better than attractive surgeons, the difference will be very slight.
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Interesting, this is very similar to the independent research I’ve been conducting that may suggest that fat girls give better head
Wait what?
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That explains my awkward teenage years spent shoplifting at 7-11 and Thrifty, Jr.
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Turpitude? Impressive.
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i just made a brilliant realization:
as the trend toward politically correct hiring extends even to areas that were formerly meritocratic, such as university science departments, attractive people will find that their stock will increase in those fields.
here’s the way the process works:
step 1: formerly meritocratic fields succumb to pressure to hire underqualified women/minorities
step 2: overall quality of faculty inevitably drops
step 3: initial p.c. enthusiasm gives way to chagrined realization that objective, achievement-based criteria have given way to arbitrary criteria
step 4: mentality that ‘arbitrary hiring/promotion criteria are ok’ takes hold
step 5: people shamelessly apply other arbitrary criteria, such as the innate preference to hire more attractive people
there you have it: politically correct hiring will ultimately benefit attractive people.
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Patrick does have a point. Girls who study kournalism or teaching tend to be prettier than gilrs who study engineering or chemistry. In fact, the prettiest coeds I met were all journalists with IQ of around 100-115, slightly above average.
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Brian Peppers is more than enough evidence for this.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/peppers.asp
Yes, ladies, he wants to hold you down and pump you full of his seed.
And if more ugly = more crime, in all probability this will one day be the worst serial killer in history:
No, that is not an alternate cover for Windowlicker.
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Gross sexual imposition
Never before heard that term.
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My experience in Toronto with an getting an undergrad degree at University of Toronto (a great school) vs. a professional degree at York University (a crap school) is that the girls were way, way hotter at the crap school.
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step 1: formerly meritocratic fields succumb to pressure to hire underqualified women/minorities
step 2: overall quality of faculty inevitably drops
step 3: initial p.c. enthusiasm gives way to chagrined realization that objective, achievement-based criteria have given way to arbitrary criteria
step 4: mentality that ‘arbitrary hiring/promotion criteria are ok’ takes hold
step 5: people shamelessly apply other arbitrary criteria, such as the innate preference to hire more attractive people
step 6: Rome Falls.
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20/20 did a show about 15 years ago called The Ugly Truth About Beauty. It gave visual proof to the bias toward the attractive.
Johnny Five, we’ve got a guy up here in Boston who just walked in his second rape trial in a year. He’s a good- looking guy who was the last cut on The Bachelor a couple years ago.
Hang around Harvard Square, teeming with kids from Harvard and MIT, for any amount of time, and you’ll see that there is little positive correlation between brains and beauty, and the vast majority of exceptions will be Harvard kids getting by on being legacies, filthy rich, etc. Hang around Kendall Square, close to MIT and home to AI Alley, the incubator for a lot of MIT grads’ business start-ups, and you’ll see a plain negative correlation.
Gannon, that’s all driven by the Broadcast and Film majors at J-schools. The print majors are, on average, much less attractive.
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Johnny Five, we’ve got a guy up here in Boston who just walked in his second rape trial in a year. He’s a good- looking guy who was the last cut on The Bachelor a couple years ago.
i probably shouldn’t have chosen rape as my example, because i would bet that a very solid majority of very desirable males accused of rape are innocent.
reasoning:
1) they have other options, so it’s unlikely they’d turn to rape unless they are seriously fucked in the skull
2) the more desirable/high-status the male, the more the woman stands to gain from accusing him (think ‘duke lacrosse’)
3) the false accuser will not be prosecuted, even if her claims are proved to be pure fiction (think ‘duke lacrosse’ again)
the punishment for making demonstrably false rape claims (not just ‘claims that don’t result in conviction’) should be identical to the punishment for rape itself; not a day, dollar, or public shaming less.
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Brutus, there is another reason for that.
Harvard has all sorts of journalism and sociology majors.
MIT is all engineering and science.
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fucking smileys.
psa: do not juxtapose quotes/apostrophes with right hand parentheses when posting here.
have a nice fucking day.
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Am I evil for having a massive fit of the giggles while looking at the Brian Peppers photo?
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…they have other options, so it’s unlikely they’d turn to rape unless they are seriously fucked in the skull
This is actually a really poor understanding of rape. None of the evidence points to rapists as sexual losers. Rapists actually have a lot more sexual partners than average.
Athletes and other manly men are not only much more likely to be accused of rape, but to confess to it and admit such behaviors in surveys.
Rape is indeed about sex, but those who do it have specific dominant and entitled personalities about taking what they want, when they want it.
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Thursday: that analysis is dead on. Although you couldn’t pay me to set foot in the Ross building ever again. *shudder*
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Re: body odor, there is a study out there by the people a U New Mexico (probably Thornhill, Miller, and/or Gangestad) that showed that sweat coming from people with more symmetrical faces were judged as smelling better, even though the judges didn’t know who donated which sweat sample.
….I wonder if we should throw away another cliche: “The hot girl thinks that her shit don’t stink.” Maybe it doesn’t (or at least, not as bad as everyone else’s). Feed ugly, average, and hot people the same diet and see whose shit stinks more.
People, IQ and looks correlate highly — you can only say that less intelligent people are better looking when you restrict the range to people with IQs in 110 (“dumb”) to 140 (“smart”) range. Once you’ve experienced the full diversity of mankind, there’s no doubt. Visit a trailer park, or a sub-Saharan or Australian Aborigine tribe sometime.
It’s also more difficult to get a good feel for how attractive really smart people are because they are such a small sample size. We’d need a good study rather than impressions here. Incidentally, I went to a good school for undergrad and am at a state school for grad, and the smarties definitely had a higher average and higher fraction of hotties. I wish it weren’t true, but it is.
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Incidentally, I went to a good school for undergrad and am at a state school for grad, and the smarties definitely had a higher average and higher fraction of hotties.
You’re comparing schools halfway across the country. Plus, if I remember correctly, you went to a “rich kid” school rather than a hardcore academic centre. Different demographics.
(BTW I’m not knocking the academics at “rich kid” schools. You can get a really good education at a lot of those places, but that isn’t really what they are about.)
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I guess you could say people at more prestigious schools have higher IQ, but I think it might be important to account for the fact that most of them work very, very hard too. There are smart people who do not want to work; there are also “gifted” people who stand out because they just want it more.
I am currently an undergrad at a school that is definitely nerdier than the surrounding schools. It’s agreed within the student population that our school’s hot people are really just normal in real life o.O
Maybe above average if they are Arts and Crafts rather than Engineering.
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In my opinion, it seems that most of the pretty girls tend to concentrate around the 100-120 I range. Poor, low class IQ tend to be uglier than middle and high class girls. However, girls with really high IQ’s who are in engineering tend to be uglier than girls who have softcore degrees like psychology, design or art.
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Gannon, that just means you’re not hanging out where the hot geeks hang out. My Nerd Academy had plenty of smokin’ chicks. I think your statement is better phrased as “people who spend all their time studying and in labcoats tend not to spend so much time shampooing and getting a tan.”
Hell, Madonna supposedly has a 180 IQ and she was really hot, what, 40 years ago.
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Jewcano:
Don’t know your exact situation, but things are different if you are hanging around a lot of Jewish girls. Jewish girls have higher average intelligence by quite a bit, so even the hot ones will usually have some real brains.
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johnny five, some good looking men who rape do it because they get their thrill from seeing a woman who is very frightened or just taking “it”. Think the Max Factor heir who fled to Mexico.
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Without reading your entire post (no time) I have to say that you are right in that looks are especially important as far as how others perceive us; but are also a big factor in how a person perceives themselves, even more importantly.
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always comes back to Gollum and Grendel, doesn’t it……..my prescious??????
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“johnny five, some good looking men who rape do it because they get their thrill from seeing a woman who is very frightened or just taking “it”. Think the Max Factor heir who fled to Mexico.”
There are some serious social science scholars who think that the vast bulk or at least a strong pleurality of rapes are an evolutionary construct to allow the perpetuation of genes from men who might otherwise not be able to spread their genes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape
If you think that is scary stuff, consider that the women who are raped might have a higher likelihood of getting pregnant. Theories for this include that for the rape adaptation to develop the reproductive benefits that accrued to ancestral rapists must have outweighed the reproductive costs. You, me and everyone living likely had at least one ancestor who was a murderer or rapist, adn that is likely a huge understatement.
http://www.washjeff.edu/users/jgottschall/Papers,%20etc/rape_pregnancy.pdf
This might also be part of the many reasons that women like ‘bad boys;’ it’s in their DNA!
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This may be of interest to you……..
http://rabbit647.wordpress.com/2008/04/19/looks/
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No, my undergrad was at a major research university too, not a “rich kid” liberal arts place.
Here’s more evidence: on the East Coast, there is heavy assortative mating for IQ and looks. Let’s take Maryland. Just from tutoring kids from smarty high schools vs. dummie high schools, I can tell that the smarties are better looking.
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And anyway, rich kid liberal arts places like Swarthmore and company also have really high SAT scores, so even if I went there, it wouldn’t have made a diff.
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Agnostic:
When I was thinking “rich kid” I was thinking Georgetown or GWU. I wouldn’t be surprised if those places attracted a lot of hot people. But then I guess I assumed you did your undergrad in DC.
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Dieters, make your effort a lot easier. Hang a photo of Brian Peppers on your refridgerator door. God that man is ugly!
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The relatively small cliche of well dressed Enron employees stole far more money and caused far more damage than probably the bottom 250,00 prison inmates – most of whom were in on small drug amount charges – maybe the judge game them 20 years for stealing $20. because they were ugly.
Don’t under estimate the enormous cost to the world caused by “elites” who don’t look “bad”. The Keating five, George W Bush – it could go on and on. The “alphas” who completely mishandled Iraq have killed and wounded alot of our guys too and it is still a huge clusterfuck.
Take for example : the damage to California – one of the worlds largest economies. Most of the criminals in California couldn’t cause as much chaos as a few Enron execs did.
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Yes, but two of the ugliest people I know are really good looking. An average narcissist can do a lot of damage to other people without breaking any laws. When one person is trashed, they just go on to the next because it is so easy. They KNOW they are lying, betraying, manipulating and what they’re real intentions are.
http://www.amazon.com/Picture-Dorian-Modern-Library-Classics/dp/0375751513
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My undergrad’s average SAT score looks like 1400, GWU’s is 1250 – 1300, and Georgetown’s is about 1400 too, so they’re not slouches. The latter two do attract more pre-professionals than pre-academics, but saying that a research psychologist or classicist is smarter than a lawyer or doctor is just wishful thinking.
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I’ve never heard anyone complain that the world shouldn’t judge standards of attractiveness. As far as this blog goes, I think people only object to comments you’ve made about women only being valuable for their looks.
The problem with valuing women only for their looks is that 1) Looks fade, so women are only valuable for a few years under that system. 2) That is the equivalent of saying that women are only valuable when they are attractive to men/other people. So even the few years they get aren’t about their own value as people, but about what they bring to other people’s lives, through a shallow measure. And 3) Men like a lot of women, and trying to value Christy Turlington vs. Christy Brinkley vs. Christy whatever is stupid. The woman never knows how much she’s “really” worth in this system. Am I better than Christy B., but not as hot as Christy T? Am I only valuable if I am the most attractive woman available in the bar that night? If I am the prettiest in a small town? How do women in, like, New York, cope with the pressure to compete?
Your insistence on that point is why you hear so much about not valuing women. But no one minds if you like a pretty face, you’re entitled to that.
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49 dizzy9
I think your points distilled mean that making comparisons is misery, any way you look at it. It’s a huge waste of energy to compare oneself with some bullshit ideal and all ideals are bullshit. It’s bad enough having your own ideal image, but to try to live up to someone else’s? Crazy making. As soon as you manage it, they will change their mind as the mind is fickle as hell so why bother?
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May I?
“value is a relative measure that cannot exist in a vacuum removed from the judgement of others.”
If you are that concerned with what others think of you–so concerned that your value is completely in the hands of others? You are in a world of shit.
“in the sexual market, which is the most important market you’ll ever compete in during your lifetime”
There is a sexual “market”? Where do I buy stock? How are the winners determined? How is success determined? Who in your eyes is top dog/king/queen of the heap? Why?
“oh wait, i forgot, you have zero sympathy for men’s troubles.”
Tell us the story of how much sympathy you have for women’s troubles.
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dizzy even though i hate you it is the kind of hate that brings me great joy. i love to feel hate for you, it gives me pleasure. it is breathtaking! i think it is your purity, your steadfast and unwavering devotion to your wrongheaded worldview and effortless ability to avoid examining your core beliefs however ridiculous and numbingly cliched, that warms my heart. if you are a sock puppet uberfeminist crank self-parody, i salute you for a job well done!
now it’s time for me to eviscerate you once again.
As far as this blog goes, I think people only object to comments you’ve made about women only being valuable for their looks.
correction: women’s looks are the most valuable attribute they bring to the sexual market. recite this over and over until you stop erecting your convenient strawmen.
1) Looks fade, so women are only valuable for a few years under that system.
more than a few years. a woman’s salad years are 15-25, with a gradual decline up to 30 and then a rapidly accelerating decline after that. for most women, once they’ve hit 45 it’s game over. 50 is the wall.
2) That is the equivalent of saying that women are only valuable when they are attractive to men/other people.
value is a relative measure that cannot exist in a vacuum removed from the judgement of others. in the sexual market, which is the most important market you’ll ever compete in during your lifetime, a woman’s physical attractiveness is the best barometer of her value to men.
So even the few years they get aren’t about their own value as people, but about what they bring to other people’s lives, through a shallow measure.
is it shallow to love a man with a high status job? many women do. what about a man with a sense of humor? humor is a superficial trait, like looks. hell, the sum total of our personalities are over 50% heritable! so even your “value as a person” criteria is shallow by nature.
3) Men like a lot of women, and trying to value Christy Turlington vs. Christy Brinkley vs. Christy whatever is stupid.
some women are ugly. some are beautiful. the rest are in between. deal. reality cares not for your swollen indignation.
The woman never knows how much she’s “really” worth in this system.
she’ll know by the amount of male attention she gets.
Am I only valuable if I am the most attractive woman available in the bar that night?
you’ll be the most valuable initially to men in a bar if you’re the hottest chick, assuming your personality isn’t wretched (BIG assumption) and you are open to talking to them when they approach you. if you don’t put out then another girl who does might see her value rise higher than yours, if her looks are comparable and don’t fall below a certain threshold.
How do women in, like, New York, cope with the pressure to compete?
how do men cope with the pressure to compete? oh wait, i forgot, you have zero sympathy for men’s troubles. which is your prerogative and understandable, but one i like to point out since it throws into stark relief the lameness of your self-absorbed whining.
Your insistence on that point is why you hear so much about not valuing women.
i do? seems i only hear it from you, incessantly. anyhow, if you want to continue believing that the hard-wired male desire for hot babes is an example of not valuing women then all i would suggest to you is to try and conceal your seething resentful contempt for male desire when on dates so the man doesn’t attempt an escape through the bathroom window and leave you holding the check in public humiliation.
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“how do men cope with the pressure to compete? oh wait, i forgot, you have zero sympathy for men’s troubles. which is your prerogative and understandable, but one i like to point out since it throws into stark relief the lameness of your self-absorbed whining.”
Is that better? Gee, what crawled up your ass tonight? And I am not a broken record and will probably survive if you never take my comments seriously. Why are you so pissed off at dizzy8? Something strike a nerve? Are you not getting any this week? Or has alcohol inflamed your liver? Hmmmmm….I’m thinking therapy; physical and mental.
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I don’t even get the whole competition thing. That’s how STUPID I AM. It’s my stupid opinion that therein lies your problem. Stop competing. I believe life would go on better than ever and it will add 10 years to your life. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be your best, but why compete with others? Is there a shortage? Of anything? Look around. There’s lots, and lots of everything your heart, mind, and groin could ever desire. Nothing personal, but your whole outlook is wrong.
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1) Looks fade, so women are only valuable for a few years under that system
That’s so true Dizzy. That’s why it is such a better deal for a man to marry a 16 yeat old versus a 30 year old even if they were equally attractive: a 16 year old has her best years before her, vs a 30 year old woman has her best years behind her. If you have wasted your best years Dizzy deceived by feminism that’s not our fault.
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56 Gannon
How is it going for you? With the young girls I mean.
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Gannon: I think it depends on you define as “best”. 16 was only a few years ago for me, but I’m glad not to be a teenager anymore. There’s just something about (a) people generalizing you as a troublemaker or immature and (b) giving into angst when you feel impatient to grow up faster.
Doesn’t it make you feel cheaper to take advantage of someone who has less confidence in themselves? Or do you not think you can attract the attention of someone who can evaluate you too?
By the time girls turn 30, they might be jaded by the world. But by then, they should at least know better than to be bitter –> (bitter = angst for old people)
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If a guy who only wants me for my looks is the prize, then I’m not sure the sexual market is, as you say, “The most important competition (I’ll) ever compete in during my lifetime.”
Actually, I think the fact that women like me dropped out of the race for your attention is what really makes you mad.
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@paperdreamer, @termagent:
Thanks for your comments. First, let me start saying that you look very cute on your picture Paperdreamer, very attractive. What are you? Italian, jewish, Hispanic, Persian?
As you know, I’m still with my girlfriend. We have been together now for 18 months and she is a senior in HS. The real shocker will come when she enters university though. I hope our relationship will survive that event. By the way, 15, 16 year old girls are not stupid but rather very smart. You should know that Paperdreamer, since that period was a short time ago for you. Younger girls (15-229 are just much cuter, nicer and more fun to be around with. I enjoy converstaion with you, whereas I have to hide form Dizzies mean comments. really, belive it or not, men just love women in the 16-22 years age range more than anything.
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Saying that women are worth more than their looks, that we want more than a man who will value us for 15 years, max? And then only value us for what we give to him?
That was “mean” of me, Gannon? I was somehow cruel to you and your feelings? You’re easily bruised, aren’t you? Especially for someone who enjoys the kind of “cum dumpster” characterizations of women that’s all over this blog’s archives.
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I’ll be more precise: I enjoy the fresh, joyful, positive upswing comments form cuties like papaerdreamer, whereas when I read your comments I only see a girl angry at the world. I have no idea how you look Dizzy: the best advice I can give you is to marry a nice men ten years older who will have and pop out some babies which will bring joy to your life.
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Dizzy I seem to remember you at some point saying you liked guys who are “good in bed”. How is that different or less shallow?
By the way, I have said and I will continue to say that I do value more things than looks. There are many hot girls out there but very few have caring and supportive personalities (the best for a relationship). And unfortunately in female lawyers/law students they are probably nonexistent, from what I have seen.
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To Gannon:
Thanks for your comments too. I’m actually central Asian. It is not typical for the country but people tend to have a variety of looks in the region.
Actually I had no idea about your GF. But good for you that you found someone wonderful 🙂 If you and her are don’t change too much or are able to compensate for the changes, it may last through college. Sometimes the worst thing for college-apart relationships is when the person entering college starts to see that her new life/ what she would like her new life to become isn’t working with her old BF. But you seem to know how to do your thing 🙂
“By the way, 15, 16 year old girls are not stupid but rather very smart. You should know that Paperdreamer, since that period was a short time ago for you.”
I never implied them as stupid. I would equate stupidity with gullibility. (An 8 year old is gullible; older people who are easily manipulated are ignorant.) Being younger just makes you more given to doing what you think you should be doing according to the crowd, rather than according to yourself. In high school, I was kind of an outsider and I didn’t always like it. But as time passed (not even that long), I started understanding that what is important to me might not match with how people see me for doing them or wanting to do them. I might be a nerd or a wild child, but really who cares? I will never see the people who judge me superficially again and the important people would never do that to me. This is a view that’s harder to deal with when you’re 15. I guess for me it started evolving when I was around 17 (graduation).
“Younger girls (15-229 are just much cuter, nicer and more fun to be around with.”
This is usually the case. But possibly because they aren’t on guard all the time. I would say it is proportional to bad experiences in the past (wouldn’t it make you sad too?)
“men just love women in the 16-22 years age range more than anything.”
I wish that men in the 16-22 range would be kinder to girls their own age. It might help lower the rates of bitterness in older women. It’s one thing to be naive and another to be optimistic despite bad experiences.
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I wish that men in the 16-22 range would be kinder to girls their own age. It might help lower the rates of bitterness in older women. It’s one thing to be naive and another to be optimistic despite bad experiences.
well, I think that men and women are at different places at the same age. When I say that men shoud try to date and marry younger women, it doesn’t only benefit the man. It also benefits the woman.
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By the way, paperdreamer, you look a little bit like my gf
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Gannon,
“well, I think that men and women are at different places at the same age”
This is true. But guys eventually catch up I think? I think it’s pretty much accepted that the guy should be older and the girl should be younger, just with less of an age gap than you were saying (under 18). Besides the fact that its a legal boundary, there’s a number where people really are “children”.
Age gaps mean different things at different ages. For example, a 77 yr old and a 67 yr will be less controversial than a 17 yr old and a 27 yr old.
Gannon, I don’t know how old you are but I hope that you really feel the way you say. If you do, then there’s nothing to talk about –> society can handle a little contradiction to its rules if both parties are truly happy.
I just think that for most people, it’d be cool to know that through time and trouble, someone will stand by us; someone who makes us want to be our best.
Is that so cliche? I’d be sad if it is.
But to the other people, who are after general youth instead of the specific person, we will all age. Your world will change, but at the core, you’ll still be the same person watching it all pass you by.
We see what we want to see.
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I’m not that old. I’m almost 25. Anyway, age of consent in Argentina is much lower than in the US, and society does accept twentysomething men dating HS girls. I wanted to take a trip with my gf to the states but I can’t because she is 17 😦
(I could get in trouble in the US for that).
The most important thing is that we love each other, that we just enjoy being together. It’s nice that you can understand that true feelings are the most important thing.
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There’s just something about (a) people generalizing you as a troublemaker or immature
Oh don’t lie, the expression in your pic says it all — you were such a troublemaker.
For example, a 77 yr old and a 67 yr will be less controversial than a 17 yr old and a 27 yr old.
That’s true, but mostly because people are picturing an ugly, scruffy unemployed loser in the 17 / 27 case. In reality, though, if a 17 yr old girl chooses to be with a 27 yr old guy, he’s going to be a pretty good catch. He has to be, or she wouldn’t have set aside her typical rule that she doesn’t date guys that age.
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Oh lord Jack. I didn’t say exactly that. But if you can’t see the difference between someone who has learned to pay attention to another person in a sexually pleasing way, and someone who just manages to look good to a horny guy, then I don’t know what to tell you.
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And subtly calling me ugly and shrewish is stupid Gannon. For all you know, I’m a 50 year old guy with a young-Latino-boys fetish who is LOVING your stories of life in Chile or wherever you hit on 14 year olds.
Even if I were a beer-bellied, pasty-skinned 50-year-old man with an Asian porn fetish, it still wouldn’t make my opinion wrong when I say you should give women more credit. Actually, I don’t see why you object at all. I said you can prefer whatever you want sexually, just as long as you can still respect women as people. You know, like women who can go out with anyone they want, but who are still willing admit that men without money technically count as human, too.
You want us to consider your worth as based on more than one factor, don’t you?
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agnostic — You are a case in point of the generalizations I’ve been running from!
“Oh don’t lie, the expression in your pic says it all — you were such a troublemaker”
I can only laugh. That is the first time anyone has ever seriously charged me with that accusation. In high school I was the nerd girl that went stag to the prom. Twice. We make our choices.
Kind of glad the nerd vibe is dying down though. This seems a good sign 🙂
The expression was on my birthday when my best guy friend made a gay joke. The fact that he is the gayest gay person I’ve ever known made me laugh really hard.
“In reality, though, if a 17 yr old girl chooses to be with a 27 yr old guy, he’s going to be a pretty good catch. He has to be, or she wouldn’t have set aside her typical rule that she doesn’t date guys that age.”
Sometimes (maybe most of the time). But that doesn’t explain why parents share a common fear that their daughters will run off with a random older guy who is preying on her innocence.
I find that the only distinction that people use to judge guys as “a pretty good catch” is if they are successful (eg wealth translates more than fame). Which still doesn’t make the genetically unlucky less ugly or scruffy. If they are rich solely due to inheritance, it might not even make them less unemployed.
That said, I have no doubt that a 27 yr old will have had more time and opportunity to be more of a catch to a younger girl than a guy her own age. But then the 27 yr old becomes as much of a commodity as he has made the younger girl
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“Actually, I don’t see why you object at all. I said you can prefer whatever you want sexually, just as long as you can still respect women as people. You know, like women who can go out with anyone they want, but who are still willing admit that men without money technically count as human, too.”
Great. So we are agreeing on something here. I’m not a bad person Dizzy. You just don’t seem to be happy. A lot of women your age (you are 29,right?) just seem so angry at life in general that I prefer dating younger ones. Younger girls just are giggly and more happy. I wish for you that you find hapiness. I live in Argentina, by the way, but travel to Chile from time to time. Both coutries, as well as Uruguay are very different from the rest of Latinamerica. I also think that feminism has made the life of a lot of young women worse.
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@paperdreamer: on your picture you look like a tomboy. Agnostic has a point.
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gannon : Alright. I’ll take that as a compliment 🙂
I tend to behave more feminine ( I like pretty things), but I think my thoughts are probably what you’d class as tomboy. No one has ever said that about me either. Cool!
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I “don’t sound happy” because I said women count for more than their looks? I don’t quite see how that opinion would define me as an unhappy downer.
It’s not like I said I need to be in a completely inequitable relationship in order to feel comfortable, or something like that.
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You’re running from them because you know they’re right, just admit it.
But then the 27 yr old becomes as much of a commodity as he has made the younger girl
Nah, when a 17 yr old girl chooses a 27 yr old guy, there’s little chance that it’s based on money — girls that age aren’t very interested in wealth. If they were, they would want to visit Wall Street for spring break, rather than Cancun or Rio.
But you’re close. The 27 yr old will be more independent, ambitious, and not reeking of desperation like the boys her own age. He will just come across as more confident and exciting, and for initially attracting a girl, that matters more than wealth (which is more relevant for marriage and starting a family).
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It’s kind of hard to remember
High school was 3 years ago.
——————–
“when a 17 yr old girl chooses a 27 yr old guy, there’s little chance that it’s based on money — girls that age aren’t very interested in wealth. If they were, they would want to visit Wall Street for spring break, rather than Cancun or Rio.”
Actually I think that shows that they do have interest in wealth: Wealth, not for the visual thing of dollar bills and crazy analysts, but for the things people can get from it.
Going to Wall Street and going on vacation are two types of appreciation for money: the first, for the thrill you get from using it as an interest/ hobby; the second, for the life it can provide.
As for the attraction of a girl from macho man power, I’m sure that is a big part of it too. A lot of women are attracted to older men; no argument there. But usually it’s to a guy not very much older.
If the guy is old, and not just older, I would wikipedia “gold digger”.
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OK, forget spring break — what about during the rest of the year? Are college girls trying to find boyfriends who are accomplished lawyers, businessmen, or other wealthy guys? Not really. Maybe someone who could do those jobs, but for right now they’re mostly interested in a guy who is confident and exciting to be around.
If the guy is old, and not just older, I would wikipedia “gold digger”.
You mean if he has nothing to offer other than money, like that old dude Anna Nicole Smith was married to, sure. But ask any guy who has been a teacher or professor — they don’t make much money, yet if they are again confident and passionate, a decent fraction of the female students fall for them.
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The rest of the year, I am working my butt off in school. No one at my uni has a car and the campus is in the city, bordering a ghetto-esque area. Therefore, I don’t get out much.
Maybe that is different for other college girls? I think it depends on the school.
As for guys, I would say a higher potential beats current lower money (on most days). Yes, most girls in college want a guy who can just be cool to be with. But then, most of them don’t date people 6 years older than them (this leads into what I was saying about gold diggers for waaay older guys)
I haven’t heard of a student here sleeping with a professor (most of them are well over 50!) but whenever people discuss it, it’s to “help” them get better grades. It’s not directly money, but a lot of people are paying for their school or their scholarship may be on the line. Getting a lower grade can mean less money in the future too.
Maybe if the professor was attractive (not a raisin with unicellular hairs in weird places)too, what you say could happen. Anything is possible 🙂
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I can relate absolutely with what Agnostic says. Since I speak not only Spanish but only German and an East European Language as a mother tongue, I used to tutor HS boys kids when I was in my early years of univerisity. Really, to be honest, some girls flirted shamelessly with me, and there was sexual tension in the Air. Also, right now I’m a auxiliar teacher at my university teaching an entry law course and some freshman girl flirt with me too.
Central Asian means persian, right paperdreamer? Perisian girls tend to be hot.
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Should say Gannon, not Angel of justice.
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Gannon — Maybe you are just attractive to them? That’s not always the case.
I am not Persian 🙂
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Obviously being in your twenties helps. If I had been 42 instead of 22 things would have been different. Really, a lot of teen girls like older guys, specially 19-26 year old guys, and perceive boys their same age as children. On the other hand, teen girls hate balding fat forty year old guys who approach them.
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I agree. But there is 1 guy with those qualities in my class. I think he is 19/ 20 also though. I thought he was a post-bac for a while.
Kind of sucks when early aging screws you over.
But I would say guys in their 20’s are in their prime (for my age group). Overall, early 30’s seems like a comfortable age for guys though?
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How old are you Paperdreamer, 20? And why do you make a secret the country of your origin?
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the best advice I can give you is to marry a nice men ten years older who will have and pop out some babies which will bring joy to your life
IIRC, there have been studies that seem to show that having children doesn’t make people any happier, so I would be hesitant to tell somebody that children and marriage are the solution.
By the way, paperdreamer, you look a little bit like my gf
Before or after several glasses of Argentinian red wine?
Maybe someone who could do those jobs, but for right now they’re mostly interested in a guy who is confident and exciting to be around.
That’s primarily because those women aren’t interested in marriage. When you’re not looking for a long-term relationship, standards fall considerably, and the confident & cool man is really all that’s needed.
As I’ve noted before, many of my female friends have dated older men, ranging from 5 to 10 years older, and these are women with strong feminist traits. Interestingly, most of them derided my comments about “cradle-robbers”, and most of them seemed surprised that I was so fixated only dating women of the same age.
I suspect that there is a number of American women who will date older men in that 5 to 10 year old window, but it’s hampered by the fact that American marriages seem to be focused around the concept of friendship, and it’s hard to develop such long-term deep friendship bonds with people of different generations.
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Good to know that you are still alive DA;
yeah, Paperdreamers facial features do remind me a little bit of my gf. So the answer is BEFORE.
While I believe you that some 18-19 year old US girls are willing to date guys in their late twenties, it’snot the norm. Most won’t. Whereas in Argentina most 18-20 year olds do date guys as old as their early thirties.
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dating a woman in her 40s and 50s isnt such a bad thing.
women that old dont look as frumpy or out-of-it like they used to. i am ALL ABOUT the cougars
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Whereas in Argentina most 18-20 year olds do date guys as old as their early thirties.
When your potential future earnings are non-existent due to few available career paths, and the local currency doesn’t allow for easy import of luxury items, it makes sense to look for an older guy for immediate and long-term financial support.
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Good for you Lenny: so satisfy your urges
Good for Gannon: one competitor less
Seriously, while I respect your sexual preferences remember that most men are wired to fuck fertile women, the more fertile the better, and that means around 14-32 years of age.
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@DA: I’m talking about high middle class girls here who drive to university in a small brand new jeep bought as a present for their HS graduation by their entrepeneur fathers, not some poor Rancho girl. Buenos Aires is a socially segregated city: girls who go to university are from a middle class or high class background.
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Buenos Aires is a socially segregated city: girls who go to university are from a middle class or high class background.
That’s nothing new, most of the US is socially segregated as well by race and to a lesser extent, income. As I said, I suspect that even the upper class women have limited career prospects when compared to their American or European counterparts. Otherwise, I can’t explain why older Argentine men are attractive when American men of the same age are deemed as old, while I have friends who regularly sleep around, but don’t want the older teenage girls not out of legal concerns, but out of maturity concerns. OTOH, I’ve had two young women find me attractive, and I dismissed their interest as naive and silly since I felt that no *sensible* woman in my own age group would have found me attractive. I wonder if other men are dismissive of younger in the same way.
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gannon — I’m 20. I’m not keeping my country of origin secret per se, but people always act so surprised when I tell them. I’m from Nepal.
BTW, red wine is the way to go 🙂
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It’s rather odd, but I followed the exact opposite path from DA: I got with any woman who would have me, which, because of my non-alpha appearance and economic status, was 5s and below. Unlike DA, I found that it actually led to a form of sexual burn-out, long periods of depression and lack of interest in sex punctuated by short, transitory affairs with women who looked much like the red-haired girl in the “uncomfortable touching” photograph. Of course, the flip side was that the affairs were squalid, torrid evenements characterized by (depending on the age of the voluptuary) various untoward sexual awakenings. Oh, the humanity.
Oddly, the first two women I dated were of acceptable appearance and standard weight, and trusting enough. However, I’ve got to differ on a few counts: there ARE smart, funny, hip fat chicks, some of whom are reasonably sexually adventurous–they’ve grown up in Left Coast hippie communes where they were valued for all the intangibles PUAs regard as dross, and as a result don’t have the self-image baggage of a life spent among the “mean girls”. Weirdly, the least “damaged” all have conventionally-pretty, symmetrical faces. Or not so weirdly.
So, well, I’ve had my brain thoroughly scrambled by the lived experience of lots of things the above post claims “can’t happen.” But I’m still a beta, I guess, and still a lion in winter. I’ve actually been really happy with Ross Jeffries’s system, especially in its newer forms, but am still working on progressing towards normal PUA-dom.
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I’m not sure if this has already been addressed, but it’s tough to look good in mug shots–I wouldn’t use them as a credible source for this argument. The subjects are usually intoxicated and the police take the photographs late in the morning, long after your arrest, when you are dejected and deprived of sleep (speaking from personal experience). Of all of the Hollywood mug shots that I have seen, maybe one or two of the subjects were attractive.
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Its funny how all dizzy is trying to say is women should still be seen as human and gannon assumes all this stuff about her being lonely and embittred because men his age like young girls, when she didnt even say anything about that. I dont think any woman on here has once compalined or disagreed with that and he just tried to sayt hat there are other markets than the sexual ones and womne should stop being ated in that. Whe it ocmes to casual sex a mans looks a5e disciminated against more, yet men dont get abused and out down for that, ugly men only have the advantage in long term reltionships. . Guys lik you cant see past sex, peole deserve fair treatment and respect regardless of how sexually attractive they are, old ugly men wacking off to porn get it so why shloudnt average loking women say 30 something?
At 23, I get hit on by older men all the time, who try think its a compliment tpo say I look youn eg 20 wtf? That makes me so mad ocming from slome fifty year old who should be garetful even to talk to a 23 year old, it offends men not because I feel theretaned men prefer younger girls and like me as I look young as I wouldnt waste my time on guys like that and reject them comstantly. But because I I dont like it how men think they have so much sexual power when other than being able to nab the odd insecure hott womne they fall tragiclaly to what they perceive they can get hence attakcing any women who stands up against this hypocrisy. and neither do my freinds. I think that when I was a teenager I would get swept up by money etc older guys had and now often regret spending those years with guys older than me, I am old my parents intervined and I still got to ‘grow up’ with boys my own age too. Kids are kids leave them alone, guys in mid twenties do take adavntage of young girls and its wrong, they dnt all treat their teenage gf’s nicely as gorna or whatever he’s called says he does, not all do, I had many teenage freindst aken advantage of and hurt by guys in their 20’s who had morel ife excperience and maturity and used that to maniuplate my freinds.
Your comment telling Dizzy to marry an old man and pop out a few babies reflets your attitude in general. I think your the one whose embittred coz some people eg the US which has way better womens righst than agentina, have as problem with u dating a 17 year old and rightfully so, the more rights womne get the younger andh otter the men they pick tend to be, its a universal trend and te more they are protected from older men who use money and expereinc eto take advantage of often insecure gils treated badly by osme boys thei own age so pliable to older guys. Its not about older women wanting your attention, get over youself. Guys put down and treat less attractive womne with contempt even if the women doesnt find them attractive either she isstill expected to ben ice to him. Most guys are not attractive to womne unless they are hott, all that money talk is bull, reseach has shown a hott rich guy is what women go for not just a rich one or a hott one, when she gets to know him she may have a relationship with an ugkly guy but at the start he’s not attractive to her, yet guys still get respect despite this flaw on their part. When people like me and Dizzy try complian about htis attidtude online with no picture we get made fun off and assumewe are just ugly and embittered. Wtf I can get heaps of guys and it makes me mad I found this forum doing reseasrch for a psychology project about looks discrimination and had to leave my say.
Back to the older guys dating younger girlst hing. Who cares if guys prfer teens? Thats not the point. Most young hott girls get treated like trash by these guys funnily enough. I know heaps of young girls who have been impregnted and dicthed by older guys. The human brain doesnt finish developing intll earrly 20’s. Guys that age with teenagers is wrong because they have an advantage of a devedloped brain and experience and can use it to take advantage of her. Thats why people like Dizzy Im sure have a problem not because of your misgonistic comments. Kids are kids. Leave kids alone. Let young girls have their innocnece with boys their own age, they have their whole lives ahead of them to be introdcued intill the adult world. It hink you know this and thats why deep down you are attacking poeple like Dizzy. I read you guys argument, you are syaing the mopst rdiculous things to her, and attakcing her when she is just mentioning valid points. Goran at 25 your not a kid but you dating one. In the US people would laug hat you for being with as kid, I think you knoiw that and it makes you mad and YOU wish you were her age so you didnt feel so creepy. Let her have fun with freinds her own age, and dont taken advantage of her lack of expereince. Maybe its different in your culture but I think that kids should be kids intill they are at least 20 and gown ups like you hsoudkl stay away. She has her whole life to date men and be in adult relationships, 17 is too young. How can she know whats best for her when her brain is still developing. Thats why osme countriesl ike US have laws about under 18 year olds. Its called statuatory rape.
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