For the second time in a row* (there was no April comment winner because all the comments in April sucked) droll and deadpan blogfly Gannon takes home the prize with his comment on my post Overheard In DC:
The real culprit is that women’s extended adolescence increases each year. Age of first marriage delys itself more and more, specially among high and middle class (middle class girls aspire to be high class) women. A lot of women nowadays marry at around 30, an age where their fertility has decreased a lot. Sure, a lot of women in their thirties have children. But also, a lot of women in their thirties can’t have children anymore. The real age brackets which always have produced the most children are the women aged 16-30. That is the age when women can produce the next generation. Teen girls are as fertile as shit. Fuck a 16 year old girl three times, and voilá, she will be knocked up. You can fuck some 30something year old woman for months, use a table to determine her fertile days, raise her hips to allow your spunk to get to the matrix but even then that gal’s belly won´t grow.
Can’t argue with the facts, but what I really liked was his description of a woman’s reproductive organs as the “matrix”. When you plunge into a woman’s furrow it really is like entering an alternate universe of flytraps, clanking gears, flesh portals, and undulating catacombs.
Gannon’s comment reminded me of the movie Juno. She sits on a cock once for two seconds and gets pregnant, while some 33 year old somewhere is hopped up on witch doctor fertility drugs imported from India and dangling upside-down from a mechanical contraption at the exact moment the moon enters its third phase crescent and Jupiter aligns with Uranus, barking at her man to hurry up and finish the job as she grips the base of his shaft to squeeze out the last life-giving droplet and he drops dead from a heart attack from overexerting himself in an activity that has ceased to be enjoyable.
May 2008 Comment Winner Runner-Up is Shivani on my post From Kitten To Cougar:
GAWD!!! never have I ever been more disgusted by a post but at the same time couldn’t take my eyes off of it.
My work here is done.
What makes Ganon’s comment especially meaningful is that the media has either ignored or “celebrated” this trend among women, calling them “savvy.” Yet, they criticize it when me n do the same thing.
Here is a link to an article by Kay Hymowitz — usually a pretty good writer. It’s called “Child-Man in the Promised Land” and looks at mens’ extended adolescence. I’m old enough to remember when men were criticized for this in the early 1980s. It was then called “Peter Pan Syndrome.”
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_single_young_men.html
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Yes, I saw Juno too, and while I agree with your/Gannon’s general conclusions, there was nothing in the movie to suggest that she got pregnant while losing her virginity.
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his description of a woman’s reproductive organs as the “matrix”. When you plunge into a woman’s furrow it really is like entering an alternate universe of flytraps, clanking gears, flesh portals, and undulating catacombs.
Tragically, a more accurate term today would be “hairless matrix.”
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DOBA, right on.
A similar article was in the Atlantic Monthly abou how men apparently worship at the oracle that is FHM (or Maxim or whatever), but nothing about girls refusing to grow up. However, they did have an article that told women that they should “settle” since they could not find a Mr. Right.
You see this all the time.
This is the type of thing that I try to ask of the likes of Clio, or maybe Hope.
Basically, if you know that the grand majority of women want to get married and haev children AND that they should be planning to start their families around, say, 25-27 years old, then, what would you teach your daughter. How should she be acting when she is 18, or 21, or, 23?
Girls nowadays can be a lot of fun. And, good for us. But, very little about them makes you, the man, want to invest anything real in them.
I think that girls have a lot more choices today, but, the one that they seem to care about most is going away.
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These discussions would be more interesting (but necessarily less vitriolic!) if you actually considered which “women” do what. People differ. Different personality types abound among men and women alike. These “career” women that articles like to gush about – what fraction of the population are they? The vast majority of people don’t even have B. A. degrees, let alone careers as high-powered CEOs or top scientists, especially among women. It’s un-PC to talk about IQ and class, but where are most working women working? As cashiers at Walmart, probably, or its equivalent! These women, if they do delay marriage and having children, are not doing so because of career ambitions. But that’s not sexy enough for articles in the New Yorker – it might even bring up the unpalatable issues of immigration, white flight, etc. So, back to the “other” people…
Smart people don’t want to have kids in their twenties because they have other things to do. That’s it. And, at the risk of channeling Agnostic, I’ll say that youthful people are way more fun to hang around with that some 25-year old going on 90 (gross immaturity excepted, of course).
And, good news on the scientific front – egg freezing!
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What is fucking hilarious is that this past weekend, sitting at an outdoor cafe with a business partner discussing a venture, we sat next to two women and a gay man who were having the same goddamn conversation you “Overheard in DC!” I could not believe my ears nor the striking similarity of it all, late 30 or 40 something fashionistas with a pair of cocker spanials [substitute children] and the gay friend feeding their minds full of shit.
On a separate but related note, I’m looking forward to the documentary on Roman Polanski debuting on HBO in a couple of weeks, “Wanted and Desired.” Roman had a relationship with Nastassja Kinski when she was 15 and he was 28 years her senior. He was 10 years older than his late wife, Sharon Tate and then of course there was the infamous statutory rape trial. The tag line is alluring, in the U.S. he’s wanted and in France, he’s desired.
DoBA is spot on too. Our media despises men.
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Re matrix: Spanish for uterus = matriz.
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Matrix is the Latin word for uterus. Do you know Latin, Gannon?
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This is the type of thing that I try to ask of the likes of Clio, or maybe Hope.
Basically, if you know that the grand majority of women want to get married and haev children AND that they should be planning to start their families around, say, 25-27 years old, then, what would you teach your daughter. How should she be acting when she is 18, or 21, or, 23?
I don’t know what you’re getting at here. Are you implying that I would teach my children differently? I fell in love when I was 15 with a man that I’m married to almost 10 years later. There’s no way I’d tell a daughter to imitate the Sex in the City lifestyle (not to mention how pointlessly expensive those “designer clothing” brands are). My kids will probably get my parsimonious streak and inherit my low alcohol/substance tolerance, too.
My husband had a few years of partying, going out to bars, doing drugs, getting trashed, etc. His excuse is that guys don’t really get out of being childish and immature until their mid to late 20s. In a lot of ways though, the extended adolescence for both men and women is simple economics; it is all about being a good little American consumer (spend every last shiny penny you have / buy it on credit). But he did want to settle down, get married and have children earlier (early 20s) than other men in this generation, because his father died young (in his 40s). He doesn’t take life or love for granted, and in that regard I am quite lucky. I had to get him out of super consumerism mode, though.
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Usually Lurking, I can’t answer your question because I honestly don’t know the answer. I don’t think, however, that you’re being fair to the women who have to make these choices – the ones who have access to good educations and careers.
When I was between 18 and 23 in the 1980s, I was surrounded by a culture of extended adolescence that had people in their late 30s, it seemed, behaving like teenagers. I didn’t want to be one of them (and in fact never became one of them, strictly speaking), but there was really nowhere for me to go.
The men I met either didn’t want to marry at all, or expected to do so only after long periods of playing the field. Perhaps – as Gannon would no doubt jump in to say – older men might have stepped in and offered marriage, but even older men, in those days, had usually been married once before and were often unwilling to offer stability or children to a younger woman, to judge by the stories I heard. Anyway, at that age, where was I going to meet older, unmarried men?
I did date a 7-years-older man when I was 21 and he treated me as indifferently as any of the younger men I knew were treating my friends. And in those days the ill-treatment did seem pretty one-sided. The men were unfaithful, slobbish,hard- partyers (read: they did too many illegal substances), whether they were alpha or beta models. (Yes, I knew many unfaithful betas back then.)
The women cried and tried to toughen up but couldn’t always manage it: the hard-nosed get-out-of-my-way kind of girl was rarer then than she has since become. The toughest princess I ever knew was sideswiped by a man who bedded another woman at a party they were both attending: she walked in on them.
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The tag line is alluring, in the U.S. he’s wanted and in France, he’s desired.
Actually, according to this wikipedia entry on Polanski, it seems like he liked *very* young women, and he’s lucky that he wasn’t called a child molester in that statutory rape trial.
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The men were unfaithful, slobbish,hard- partyers (read: they did too many illegal substances), whether they were alpha or beta models. (Yes, I knew many unfaithful betas back then.)
I assume this is Clio, and yes I agree with this. The men who are real treasures are the ones who fall in love young and stay with the same girl. Gannon will disagree, but I firmly believe that men in their 30s will not be bonded as strongly to a girl as when they fall in love in their late teens and early 20s.
High school relationships do matter, and teenagers do fall in love. There is a reason why “young love,” “high school sweethearts” and stories of early romance are written and gushed about so much. Most very secure relationships and marriages I know of began when two people met during high school or college age.
The truth is that young, fresh-faced lovers make superior long term partners than seasoned bar hoppers. The tragedy is when foolish and cocky people abandon their first loves looking for something “better,” but they will never find it.
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I don’t know what you’re getting at here. Are you implying that I would teach my children differently?
I am not implying anything. I was asking a question. Which still stands.
If you, or any prospective mother, thinks that your daughter should be having children by, say, 26, then, that means that she needs to be married by 25, which probably means that she needst be engaged by 23-24, etc.
So, that is why I am asking.
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I don’t think, however, that you’re being fair to the women who have to make these choices
Unfair? I wasn’t judging anyone. I am asking a question.
Seeing what you have seen, knowing what you know; Understanding what divorce and illegitimatacy rates are like in North Dakota relative to Los Angeles, what would you teach your daughter?
For some reason, Hope and yourself perceived a certain tone to this question… I really want to know the answer.
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What makes Ganon’s comment especially meaningful is that the media has either ignored or “celebrated” this trend among women, calling them “savvy.” Yet, they criticize it when me n do the same thing.
Old male expectations still come into play, and many still expect men to be stoic breadwinners, and the idea of men delaying their entry into this world looks “childish”, which is considered to be a feminine adult trait.
OTOH, all of the traits described about men in the various articles describing this syndrome seem to paint the men as teenagers with adult jobs and the ability to legally buy alcohol. In contrast, nearly every article about the women delaying adulthood focus on her career and none of the activities that she takes part in are deemed to be childish.
Girls nowadays can be a lot of fun. And, good for us. But, very little about them makes you, the man, want to invest anything real in them.
Why would anybody invest in them even under the older regime? Why become a boring adult with spouse, children, and responsibilities when you can stay single, bang women whenever you want, do whatever you feel like, and live a comfortable lifestyle of leisure? There is *no* incentive to get married and bang the same woman over again at a decreasing rate as she ages, and as much as I love kids, there is less of an incentive to have children who are increasingly more expensive and harder to raise.
Roissy makes no-fault divorce and female-friendly family court judges to be the source of the “male-marriage strike”. Men have just simply wised up and had their own version of feminism, and many of us have realized that marriage was a waste of time that prevented men from enjoying their lives. The men here who bitch about women holding out are probably happier banging women using “game”, than being married at 25 with three kids and a average wife.
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#15 David Alexander
In contrast, nearly every article about the women delaying adulthood focus on her career and none of the activities that she takes part in are deemed to be childish.
Specifically, the article criticizes men who sleep around yet stays curiously silent when it comes to the women they’re sleeping with. Where’s the castigation for the “adolescent” women who are banging these so-called man-children? There is none, perhaps because the author sees that as an expression of female empowerment — when it’s the “right” sort of girl — or an activity relegated to sluts, which in her estimation includes “sorority sisters, Vegas waitresses, Dallas lap dancers, and Junior Leaguers”, a classification so disparate that it may as well include all women everywhere.
Here’s the thing: Men will act exactly as mature as they need to in order to get sex. If women demanded a higher standard — and lived up to their end of the marriage bargain, if men are expected to live up to theirs — you wouldn’t see nearly as much of this phenomenon.
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The tragedy is when foolish and cocky people abandon their first loves looking for something “better,” but they will never find it.
I think that you have apoint with young love versus older love…but, I am not so sure how many guys are abandoning their first love.
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that means that she needs to be married by 25, which probably means that she needst be engaged by 23-24, etc.
I think a woman usually knows by the time she is in her early 20s whom she wants to spend the rest of her life with. If not, something has gone wrong, for instance it didn’t work out because of distance or huge incompatibility issues, or the man she fell in love with didn’t love her in return or didn’t love her enough to marry her (I know a few cases like this), or she is a lesbian (I know of such a case, too). I would be very surprised if a girl didn’t fall in love at all by the time she was 25.
The problem comes, of course, when the initial feelings of intense passion dulls, and oxytocin kicks in to replace dopamine. Most people in this stage of comfort and intimacy believe they are therefore no longer “in love” and begin to look for a new mate. In fact, oxytocin-induced bonding (a la mother and child) is just as strong, if not stronger than dopamine (as seen in drug addiction). Personally, I’ll be sure to teach my children to appreciate all the facets of love, trust and pair bonding, not just the rush of dopamine in the beginning.
The men here who bitch about women holding out are probably happier banging women using “game”, than being married at 25 with three kids and a average wife.
I have my doubts about your “happiness” comparison, but let’s say that you are correct. Such men (and women) will die a genetic dead end in a material sense, and will leave their hearts to rot in a spiritual sense. I might be wrong, but a profound and uplifting sense of genuine “happiness” does not seem to flow forth from the blogs of those who sleep and date around, women and men included.
The pleasure of a quick orgasm is fleeting, but the contentment of fulfillment is lasting. Wisdom and enlightenment do not come from an easy life filled with hedonism, but from adversity, experience, self-reflection and truth-seeking. I’m not saying marriage and children are the way to gain such. But connecting with other human beings in more ways than just physically can bring about a kind of happiness that cannot be understated.
The man with 3 kids and an average wife and the man who bangs a bunch of women can both be the most miserable people you know, or the most content people you know.
If women demanded a higher standard — and lived up to their end of the marriage bargain, if men are expected to live up to theirs — you wouldn’t see nearly as much of this phenomenon.
Perhaps true, but why go with the flow that is swirling ever faster around a black drain? Rather than waiting for the world to change, you can embody change in yourself.
We can all see what’s wrong with the world, but few take steps to change what’s wrong with themselves.
Oh, as far as “child-man” goes in the linked article above, there is a good way to be a child-man, too. To keep the perspective of youth, to play, to laugh and to feel joy and happiness under the more compassionate rules of reciprocity, which immature children do not necessarily understand.
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“Here’s the thing: Men will act exactly as mature as they need to in order to get sex. If women demanded a higher standard — and lived up to their end of the marriage bargain, if men are expected to live up to theirs — you wouldn’t see nearly as much of this phenomenon.”
Of course you would! What is this standard you’re expecting women to demand, in the first place, and in the second, does that even matter? You’ve already dismissed marriage as useless to men, so what could any one woman offer you to overcome that? I mean, no matter how great (sexy, willing, faithful, etc.) any one woman is, she’s still only one woman, which, according to you, is hundreds of women too few to hold your interest.
There will *always* be someone willing to undercut the market value. When women demand a higher standard (by which I mean a man who will be as faithful to her as she is to him, and a partnership wherein neither party is looking to take advantage of the other,) the vast majority of men will simply find someone who demands less. You won’t praise those women for having adhered to any kind of standard, you’ll simply dismiss them for having been too picky.
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I think a woman usually knows by the time she is in her early 20s whom she wants to spend the rest of her life with.
I only knew one girl at that age that was dead certain that she wanted to be married and have children. And most of the girls, especially in college, said something to this effect, “I am pretty sure that I do not want to have children and I am never getting married”.
I would be very surprised if a girl didn’t fall in love at all by the time she was 25.
There is a huge difference between some girl proclaiming that she is in love and saying, “I really want to be married, get pregnant and raise a family.” Especially when that girl is 23 and she sees her friends going out dancing with “exciting” guys.
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You’ve already dismissed marriage as useless to men, so what could any one woman offer you to overcome that?
He has declared marriage useless because he can get regular sex from different girls who do not take any alimony from him.
Imagine trying to pull off this kind of life in, say, Topeka in 1912. It just wouldn’t happen. Society changed and so did the consequences.
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“Matrix is the Latin word for uterus. Do you know Latin, Gannon?”
A little bit. Although I’m a lawyer, I have some basic medical training because I’m also a high altitude mountain climber.
The word matrix (latin) or matriz (spanish) can refer only to the uterus, but usually refers to the whole womb, also including the ovaries, the tubes and so on. The latin word for vagina is vulva by the way.
I’m also a native Spanish and German speaker. Spanish is so close to latin, that a Spanish speaker can read it and understand most of it (more respect for the Spanish language please). Also, German got its complex grammar from latin.
It’s funny that most people don’t realize that the movie the matrix literally means the womb, or the substance or environment where life grows in its extended meaning (bonematrix).
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DOBA, DF, and Reggie-
Hymowitz addresses the single young female in another article at City-Journal:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_4_new_girl_order.html
She has some interesting comments-both positive and negative-on the modern “Sex in the City” female archetype worldwide.
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#19 anon57
Of course you would! What is this standard you’re expecting women to demand, in the first place, and in the second, does that even matter? You’ve already dismissed marriage as useless to men, so what could any one woman offer you to overcome that?
That you, sara? I think you might have me confused with roissy — nowhere in my comment did I say that marriage was useless. If you’re talking about some previous comment, you’ll have to refresh my memory.
There will *always* be someone willing to undercut the market value.
Right, but the market value has been so routinely undercut that the average value is now lower.
You won’t praise those women for having adhered to any kind of standard, you’ll simply dismiss them for having been too picky.
If the girl is worth it, then setting a standard isn’t being too picky — it’s simply a fair valuation, as long as we’re talking market value.
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“The pleasure of a quick orgasm is fleeting, but the contentment of fulfillment is lasting. Wisdom and enlightenment do not come from an easy life filled with hedonism, but from adversity, experience, self-reflection and truth-seeking. I’m not saying marriage and children are the way to gain such. But connecting with other human beings in more ways than just physically can bring about a kind of happiness that cannot be understated.”
Weren’t the guys who came up with idea that wisdom and enlightenment came through adversity, experience, self-reflection and truth-seeking, ascetics who stared at a wall of a cave for extended periods of time?
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ascetics who stared at a wall of a cave for extended periods of time?
Not necessarily. You’ve ever met or seen some old and wise men and women who have been through wars, seen deaths, birthed children, and have great knowledge about things they’ve seen and experienced? I grew up with my grandparents, so I was around a lot of old folks.
Especially when that girl is 23 and she sees her friends going out dancing with “exciting” guys.
If an average saw her friends getting married and settling down, she’d probably do the same. The “leader” of women has changed into a shopping diva, but there are still some out there who lead the home life. I know a girl who is incredibly beautiful and a leader of her pack. When she got married, every one of her friends got married. When she got pregnant, every one of her friends got pregnant (they were all under 30). It was like clockwork.
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wow, i didn’t think it possible for two grown men to have sex on a blog page, but there you go… what? i’m not jealous, i’m happy for gannon…. fucking teachers pet
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“Of course you would! What is this standard you’re expecting women to demand, in the first place, and in the second, does that even matter? You’ve already dismissed marriage as useless to men, so what could any one woman offer you to overcome that?”
What he means, I think, is that years ago, women were less self-sufficient and thus took to responsible men. Now that women have earning power and don’t need men financially, they take to prisoners (really, I’m not kidding), gang bangers, pretty boy players, teens or other women.
Therefore, the average guys who would have gone on to become the Leave it to Beaver dads now have no incentive to grow up. In fact, they have a dis-incentive, because a lot of modern women don’t even want successful guys, because they view them as competitors. They want man-children they can “control” or use at whim, and this is what some men have become.
This is just one reason feminism has smashed the foundations of society. This is also one reason men are portrayed as retards (pardon the word) in the media. The media gives consumers what they want. Women want retards and criminals, not the Leave it to Beaver dad.
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Wisdom and enlightenment do not come from an easy life filled with hedonism, but from adversity, experience, self-reflection and truth-seeking.
Now hold on there, tiger — who said a life filled with hedonism was easy? Or that it wouldn’t entail adversity, experience, self-reflection, and truth-seeking?
I mean, look, most people don’t do any of those things — thinking, reflecting, seeking the truth, etc. Hedonists are more likely to do so. You may not agree with the conclusions they come to, and you may think it would be better to be dull than to be hedonistic, even if the latter brought you more wisdom.
But don’t kid yourself that hedonists are a race of zoned-out lotus-eaters. I don’t think you’d find many of them watching 5 hours of TV per day, or vegging out in another way. They get bored too easily and need stimulation.
but I firmly believe that men in their 30s will not be bonded as strongly to a girl as when they fall in love in their late teens and early 20s.
This is absolutely true — and thank God. No guy wants to return to that period of life when his brain is too soaked in hormones to think straight and behave in a remotely dignified way. C’mon guys, think of all the pathetic displays of affection you made when you were that age — and girls, think of how pathetic and overly eager boys were at that age.
It’s more important that a girl respect and admire her mate than that she believe he is as intoxicated as she is. The man is supposed to be the emotionally stronger one who she leans on for support — not a co-dependent with whom she gropes her way forward into the darkness.
Note finally that you tacitly concede that hedonism encourages life-long bonding. When you say the guy falls more deeply in love when he’s in his late teens and early 20s, that’s because sex hormones are coursing through his body non-stop, filling him with desperate lust. No age group is more pleasure-seeking and impulsive than this one.
At least older guys aren’t so swept away by the current of hormones, and can temper their hedonism with rational thought and deliberation.
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I don’t think you’d find many of them watching 5 hours of TV per day, or vegging out in another way. They get bored too easily and need stimulation.
That’s picking a semantic argument, Agnostic. If I didn’t write hedonists and instead wrote “typical American consumers” would that placate your self-indulgent ego?
At least older guys aren’t so swept away by the current of hormones, and can temper their hedonism with rational thought and deliberation.
The bonding starts when young. Regardless of your beliefs about how you will have a great future with some nubile girl, you cannot explain to the present audience how your “expertise” has led you to one successful long-term relationship lasting more than 5 years.
I married my husband when he is older and is much more rational and deliberate, but it doesn’t change the fact that we are deeply bonded to each other from our youths. I have gone through it myself, and I know others who have as well. I don’t speak from a place of speculation or conjecture.
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Now that women have earning power and don’t need men financially, they take to prisoners (really, I’m not kidding), gang bangers, pretty boy players, teens or other women.
Seriously, outside of the black community, who are these college educated women dating ex-cons and gang bangers?
Therefore, the average guys who would have gone on to become the Leave it to Beaver dads now have no incentive to grow up.
There is no incentive to “grow up” because it’s fucking boring and miserable. Why grow up to have responsibilities to children and an aging sexless wife when you can stay unmarried without any real social penalty and live a relatively carefree lifestyle with lot of great sex?
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“That you, sara? I think you might have me confused with roissy — nowhere in my comment did I say that marriage was useless. If you’re talking about some previous comment, you’ll have to refresh my memory.”
No, I am not Sara. And my apologies — I wasn’t intending to quote you exactly, I was just going along with the general opinions espoused in this forum: that marriage is a total waste of time for men. I didn’t mean to ascribe that to you, specifically.
And I’m not even disagreeing with that assertion, but again, based on the comments here, women who don’t give it up easily are dismissed as being too picky, or spinsters-in-the-making, or some such. I don’t see anyone here posting admiringly about a girl who *didn’t* have sex with him.
And given that the general belief here is that being tethered to only one women is far less desirable than bedding many, it seems specious to lay the responsibility for marriage’s failure solely at the feet of standardless women.
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28, DOBA:
Thanks for your take, although my question remains: aren’t these “standardless women” selecting themselves out of the realm of men with standards? I mean, aren’t standardless men just as much at fault for this phenomenon?
And I really am asking, because clearly I can’t base my judgements on my own behavior as I seem to be far less representative of my gender than I thought.
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C’mon guys, think of all the pathetic displays of affection you made when you were that age — and girls, think of how pathetic and overly eager boys were at that age.
I love the displays of affection my guy gave me when I was young and super hormonal (I still have the poems he wrote me). The cheesier the the display the better. Actually he still gives me such displays, and I give him those, too. Other girls can have you calculating, cold PUAs. I have my love.
Maybe you just attract “bad girls” who hate “pathetic, eager boys” because of your “baby face.” By the way, I saw photos of you. Your head is really large.
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Wait, who has a big head? LOL!
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Hope, don’t take this personally (though you probably will), but you’re debating like a girl. In the end, no one cares what you’re like — we are speaking about general trends here, not what some unicorn-worshiping nerd thinks, unless your case illustrates and puts flesh on the abstract big picture (it doesn’t).
It’s great that you were won over by cheesey beta displays of affection, but recognize that most females that age or older see this as desperate and don’t respond to it — indeed, automatically downgrade their perception of the guy.
That’s picking a semantic argument, Agnostic.
No, it’s calling you out for making a bogus argument — that seeking pleasure (hedonism) is easy, doesn’t bring along adversity, etc. You were trying to conflate hedonism with perma-slumber, and you’re just upset that someone didn’t let you get away with a lazy and deceptive argument.
would that placate your self-indulgent ego?
I don’t know, like that of all great individuals, it’s pretty huge, so I don’t know if you alone could satisfy my needs. You’re welcome to try, though.
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I don’t see anyone here posting admiringly about a girl who *didn’t* have sex with him.
AFAIK, no one here thinks less of a girl who looks to take the old-fashioned way of landing a man. That is, protecting her sexuality until she has found a provider and protector to spend her life with.
Yes, if all girls took that route, the gravy train would stop, but, society would march on.
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The “leader” of women has changed into a shopping diva, but there are still some out there who lead the home life.
Correct, the attractive girls (i.e. Queen Bees, Leaders, etc.) that settle down to baby-making and raising at 25 has dwindled to a tiny minority. And the consequences have been fascinating.
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Yes, if all girls took that route, the gravy train would stop, but, society would march on.
Well, I’d feel miserable, but my viewpoint doesn’t count. 🙂
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You were trying to conflate hedonism with perma-slumber, and you’re just upset that someone didn’t let you get away with a lazy and deceptive argument.
You see my argument as “lazy and deceptive” because you aren’t really understanding my argument. My argument is one about spirituality, something you barely begin to understand. The kind of argument I am making — that adversity and pain are necessary for wisdom — is indeed opposed to hedonism with a capital H. I believe you, in your arrogance, failed to realize that I was referring to this brand of hedonism:
“The basic idea behind hedonistic thought is that pleasure is the only thing that is good for a person. This is often used as a justification for evaluating actions in terms of how much pleasure and how little pain (i.e. suffering) they produce. In very simple terms, a hedonist strives to maximise this total pleasure (pleasure minus pain).”
Your definition of hedonism is not the mainstream definition, if in your opinion “hedonists” are “more likely” to acquire wisdom through adversity, experience, self-reflection and truth-seeking. Again, this is why I called your quibble a semantic one — one which you are on the less popular side. By most definitions, hedonists are likely to be pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, which is “easy” compared to performing hard work, doing diligence, exercising willpower, etc.
we are speaking about general trends here
Yes, and I have general trend statistic to back me up — people who fall in love with each other and pair up young have more solid relationships. That was, is, and has been my whole assertion. The fact that I sidetracked into my personal preferences about the specifics of young love interactions does not make my assertion false. Men and women who pair up while young form stronger bonds than men and women who pair up while older. This bond is so strong in fact that it can break bonds formed later in life.
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20060623-000003&print=1
DOBA, in case it isn’t clear, Agnostic is the one with the big head.
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Eat a dick, you kiss-ass.
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The mainstream definition of hedonism entails plenty of adversity — for anyone who’s actually tried it. Maybe some philosophy or English grad student who never gets out would think that trying to maximize pleasure would also minimize pain, but in real life, hedonism entails higher highs and lower lows.
A Psychology Today article — you’re cute. But returning to reality, divorce rates are highest among those who marry early. There’s a simple explanation for that: after the honeymoon period is over, the girl is still pretty hot and can trade up. When you marry later, after the honeymoon ends, the woman is too wrinkled to do better by divorcing, so she sticks it out. (Steve Sailer was the first I saw to point this out.)
So if you’re arguing that whatever enhances stability should be pursued, then we should marry when we are emotionally more stable and more agreeable — starting in the 30s — and when the woman couldn’t do better by divorcing — also in the 30s.
Only an autistic person could think that youngsters form more stable relationships than old folks. More intense bonds, sure, but when you compress lots more energy into the same volume, it’s more volatile and likely to blow up.
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BTW, I don’t support the “stability first and foremost” argument (shocker). It’s better to have a young wife, have a kid or two, and if she leaves 5 years later, at least you had incomparable fun and passed on your genes. Marrying in your 30s to someone also in their 30s makes the relationship much more stable, but boring and a genetic dead-end.
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Agnostic:
May I remind you that it’s us humanities majors stereotypically going out and getting wasted and laid, whilst you quant guys are the ones who are stereotypically stuck in the lab and/or library? In fact, I was reknowned for my straight-edgedness as a grad student; I didn’t grade exams while drunk or high, and eschewed both while writing my papers. In fact we’ve found out long ago that maxim and the qualifying maxim for that, the younger you are, the more highs there are, the older you get, the more lows there are in such a life. A grad student getting drunk and chasing tail is okay. A professor in his 40s is pushing it.
Don’t let the occasional “Sorrows of Young Werther” male philosophy grad or the legions of humorless female Gender/Polisci Studies grads fool you. On the whole we’re bigger hedonists than you lot.
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I take the side of Hope and Psychology Today regarding the effect young love has on many of us. It’s the same with music: To most of us the music we got attached to as teens will always be the music we relate to best. This is why mom can’t lay off the Joni Mitchell and some of us can’t get over disco or Duran Duran or Pearl Jam, or whatever.
To say the teen years don’t have a profound effect on us is to ignore the general thrust of our culture. There is a reason teenhood is fetishized in the Western World — it’s because it’s a significant time for us all.
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“BTW, I don’t support the “stability first and foremost” argument (shocker). It’s better to have a young wife, have a kid or two, and if she leaves 5 years later, at least you had incomparable fun and passed on your genes.”
Better for who? Certainly not the kids.
Agnostic, are you a child of divorce by any chance?
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The best movie quote of all time, from the opening scene of Sling Blade:
” … She was standing, this girl, on the side of the street where there was a chicken stand; not the Colonel, mind you, but nevertheless a chicken stand, and I pulled the Mercury over and rolled down the window by electric power. She was wearing a leather skirt and she had a lot of hair on her arms. I like that. I like it a lot. It means a big bush. I like a big bush.”
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I agree with Gannon’s win 🙂
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Gannon’s initial comment and the responses that follow are written with the assumption that women trying to get pregnant in their 30s and failing is bad for society. But is this really true? During the early years of humanity, our very survival depended on numbers. The only way for the human race to survive and flourish in those hard times was by producing as many offspring as possible.
But, we are now living in different times. The resources of the world and our society are being stretched thin. Witness the run up in the prices for gas and basic commodities such as wheat and rice. Staples of the diets of many countries. Does the human race REALLY have the same requirements that women be able to bear as many children as possible? It could be argued that this would be in fact detrimental to our survival. Could it be that this phenomenon of barren, childless women in their 30s and beyond is some sort of “evolution” or nature’s safety valve? If these women had indeed had children in their teens and 20s, what would have been the net increase in the population of the USA and other western countries where this phenomenon persists? Would we have had the resources to support this population?
Just some food for thought..
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Why are you so beautiful, paperdreamer?
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“Gannon’s initial comment and the responses that follow are written with the assumption that women trying to get pregnant in their 30s and failing is bad for society.”
Sort of. It’s having to deal with these women that’s the tough part.
“Could it be that this phenomenon of barren, childless women in their 30s and beyond is some sort of “evolution” or nature’s safety valve?”
Yes. Excellent point. But again, having to deal with older, childless women — especially in the workplace — is not a picnic. They have no life, so your life becomes their life. Never work for one!
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Hey ManAbout, you can’t evolve a tendency towards not reproducing. The genes that would be responsible kinda get wiped out when their hosts don’t reproduce.
What really happens is that the low reproduction tribe gets replaced by the high reproduction tribe. 45% of people under 18 in the United States are non-white. If upper class and middle class women had more children in the United States, we probably wouldn’t be importing a replacement population.
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Cultures come and go, hey. That’s what Isaac Bashevis Singer once said at a lecture on the vanishing Yiddish literature.
Se necesitamos aprender espanol. 我们需要学会中文.
We do.
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But as part of a dying culture, we still need to be able to appreciate beauty, hence the importance of the paperdreamers of the world.
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anonymous too, you’d have to be blind not to appreciate the beauty of paperdreamer.*
* PUA protocol violation noted.
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I need to report to PUA camp immediately for deprogramming and re-education….
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Hope wrote this:
“Hope
The men were unfaithful, slobbish,hard- partyers (read: they did too many illegal substances), whether they were alpha or beta models. (Yes, I knew many unfaithful betas back then.)
I assume this is Clio, and yes I agree with this. The men who are real treasures are the ones who fall in love young and stay with the same girl. Gannon will disagree, but I firmly believe that men in their 30s will not be bonded as strongly to a girl as when they fall in love in their late teens and early 20s.
High school relationships do matter, and teenagers do fall in love. There is a reason why “young love,” “high school sweethearts” and stories of early romance are written and gushed about so much. Most very secure relationships and marriages I know of began when two people met during high school or college age.
The truth is that young, fresh-faced lovers make superior long term partners than seasoned bar hoppers. The tragedy is when foolish and cocky people abandon their first loves looking for something “better,” but they will never find it.”
She is exactly right. Believe me, you are YOU when you are 18. You look better, you feel better, you are more optomistic, you have more energy. When your temples are greying and you have crows feet around your eyes, you no longer have six-pack abs, the hair on your chest has some grey, your face has lost the full-bloom of youth…………..youre having to market yourself “past prime”. Its much better for BOTH of you to fall in love when you are young and innocent, because you are BOTH young and innocent. Many of the people that I know who married young are still happily married with several children, and the few who didn’t got divorced relatively young and have rebounded well with someone else.
Its the ones who waited until 28, and got divorced at 36, who have wound up childless at 44 that are pissed , resentful, sad, and look back endlessly at “what went wrong”. They got to do the bars though……………….got laid alot, but didn’t get LOVED alot. Now they have old age—-ALONE—to look forward to. There is a hell of a lot more to life than money.
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Peter you forgot to add the essential conclusion to that story:
“She said, “Are you dating?” I said, “yes,” and she got in the car. We pulled to a remote location, one that she and I both felt comfortable with and she said, “How much can you spend?” I said, “What it takes to see your bush. I know it’s a big one.” She said “twenty five dollars,” which to a working man is not chicken feed. I produced the money and she put it in her shoe and pulled up her skirt. There before me lay a thin, crooked, uncircumcised penis. You can imagine how badly I wanted my twenty-five dollars back.”
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The truth is that young, fresh-faced lovers make superior long term partners than seasoned bar hoppers. The tragedy is when foolish and cocky people abandon their first loves looking for something “better,” but they will never find it.
This may be true for most women, but not for most men. Women who lose their first longterm relationship are more miserable than women who remain loners for life. And women get more miserable with the loss of each additional relationship.
Men, on the other hand, are happier when they lose long-term relationships and cycle through a series new ones.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/women-are-happiest-with-first-love-and-men-with-serial-monogamy-study-finds-577451.html
Paradoxically though it seems like most relationship breakdowns are the fault of women trying to “trade-up”. For example initiating most no-fault divorce. Hope’s Psychology Today article indicates that:
When these past lovers married each other, their divorce rate after four years tallied in at no more than 1.5 percent. Usually, second marriages are relatively fragile: In the public at large, nearly one-quarter of all couples who remarry get divorced again within five years.
I wonder if this low rate of divorce is entirely because these women get to have their cake and eat it too by “trading up” to a first love.
Hope’s article also illustrates a hilarious case of Alpha Polygamy:
______________________________
“Benjamin L. Stone should know. Almost ready to retire, the Florida attorney was enjoying life with his wife of 27 years, “a very smart, very attractive woman.” A good friend had died of cancer, and out in California for the funeral, Stone’s wife met her old flame, someone she’d dated from the time that she was 14 until the age of 17. After the service, hanging out in Malibu—”think of the tides, think sunset,” says Stone—it took them all of five minutes to reenter the “zone” and get reinvolved. “When she came back two days later, nothing was the same.” She announced that she wanted an apartment of her own.
Stone eventually found them together—in bed. Deeply in love with his wife, he told her to say good-bye to her lover and come home. “I thought we could fix this,” he says. But he was wrong. “The counselors we consulted said our marriage was excellent. We had been loyal, we were best friends, our sex was great,” but neither they nor Stone had factored in the power of lost-and-found love. “It’s as if she was hypnotized,” says Stone. “They communicated constantly by e-mail, text message. She’s a very intelligent woman, but when it comes to him, it’s as if she’s in a trance.”
They are now divorced. His wife’s lover remains married and has kept the affair a secret from his own wife. Emotionally hooked to her lover, Stone’s wife now takes his calls and responds to all his e-mails in the privacy of her own apartment, without interference—but at the periphery of his marriage and life.”
__________________________________
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“Yes. Excellent point. But again, having to deal with older, childless women — especially in the workplace — is not a picnic. They have no life, so your life becomes their life. Never work for one!”
So women should get married and have babies so that the poor men don’t have to deal with them? Is that what you’re really after?
Because women who marry young tend to be divorced before the kids are out of high school (tend to – it’s not universal, but early marriage depends on the health of the larger, extended family, which tends NOT to go along with marrying off a girl before she can support herself).
And if you want to see “no life,” catch a new mom who had kids instead of a career. She’s fat, she’s miserable, she’s out of options, and she’s just hoping her kid turns out not to be one of the crazies. Because, odds are, that daddy is already out ogling strippers and complaining that the new mommy “isn’t as fun,” as she used to be, when she got some sleep. She’s on her way to being the “ball and chain,” who disagrees with spending the rent money on Golden Tee. And she’s not getting back into the workforce without a lot, LOT of work.
Oh, and pretty soon she’s going to be OLDER. So the only person who will be able to tolerate her ugly, aging self is the kid. Who will probably never move out of her basement, and hate her his whole life, longing to spend his time instead with a young, pretty women who will just agree with everything he says.
It’s the Roissy circle of life. You losers really think you can make that woman’s life a better one than she can without you? You can’t even tolerate cottage cheese thighs, or opinions – 99 percent of women eventually develop both, you know. What exactly do you have to offer, except the chance to procreate? (But, of course, even then only if she’s “worthy,” not some “pump and dump.”)
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Dizzy, if that is true then you don’t need to convince the guys not to get married, but the girls. Yet, some how, some way, I doubt that you will convince PaperDreamer or Lemmonex to remain alone for the rest of her life.
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“BTW, I don’t support the “stability first and foremost” argument (shocker). It’s better to have a young wife, have a kid or two, and if she leaves 5 years later, at least you had incomparable fun and passed on your genes.”
Check our Fred Reed’s hillarous recent column on reductive Evol-Psych monomaniacs. It’s called “Squaring the Cirlce” or something like that.
By the way, do you have a young wife? or a young girlfriend? or a kid or two? Oh yeah, you said that you’re planning to have a have a hot 24-year-old when you’re fifty.
I don’t know if you [Hope] alone could satisfy my needs. You’re welcome to try, though.
This kind of charmery sounds cool coming from Roissy. With Agnostic it rings on a false note and comes off as a little creepy.
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#18 Hope
I didn’t notice this response to my original comment earlier:
I wrote: If women demanded a higher standard — and lived up to their end of the marriage bargain, if men are expected to live up to theirs — you wouldn’t see nearly as much of this phenomenon.
Hope wrote: Perhaps true, but why go with the flow that is swirling ever faster around a black drain? Rather than waiting for the world to change, you can embody change in yourself.
Here’s an analogy: If you saw a bratty child who was nevertheless being rewarded for his behavior with candy by an adult, who would you blame for the child’s behavior? The kid? He’s merely acting in a fashion that will maximize his access to the thing he wants: candy. The adult is the one who controls access to the candy, so it’s up to the adult to set the standard for the child’s behavior.
It’s not a perfect analogy, but the core idea is there: the party that controls a scarce resource is the one that sets the conditions under which that resource is distributed. Asking men to behave better out of the goodness of their hearts when they see that the bad boys are the ones getting the most sex is a strategy destined to fail.
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It’s not a perfect analogy, but the core idea is there: the party that controls a scarce resource is the one that sets the conditions under which that resource is distributed. Asking men to behave better out of the goodness of their hearts when they see that the bad boys are the ones getting the most sex is a strategy destined to fail.
To quote the timeless movie DC Cab: “Women. They got half the money and all the pussy.”
This blog is always good fun, but the advice given to girls is the same every time (and for good reason): The grand majority of you basically give it up so easily to any “exciting” guy that comes your way. Soon, you start looking for a stable guy, who is also exciting, to provide for you and find yourself screaming on each passing, and lonely, Valentines Day, “I want a REAL man!”.
Real men do what really works on real girls. And the consequences are real.
You are the gate-keepers. Keep the place looking nice, keep a secure lock on the gate and we will soon come knocking with flowers and candy.
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Oh you dorks. The lovely Paperdreamer is cute now. However, as soon as she has a baby, she will be 50 pounds heavier and unemployed. You guys won’t want her then. From all the older-women-suck comments on here, you won’t want her in 10 years anyway, baby or not. So what are her options?
The men on this board say, “Don’t be a slut, PaperDreamer, give up your youth, have our babies, depend on us…” You have to wonder why the men want this. I mean, someone who talks about women the way they do on this board is absolutely not so dependable.
Besides, if any of you knew how to be in a relationship, you wouldn’t be on this board trying desperately to list the 25-no-fail-ways-to-get-someone-too-good-for-you-to-sleep-with-you. Roissy brags constantly that he has tons of young cuties after him, but he just doesn’t really want them, for sure. And that’s the ideal, supposedly. So none of you are a good long-term bet for Paper Dreamer or any other cute 25 year old.
PS – Isn’t Paper Dreamer in grad school? She won’t need your money in a couple years. She can have a baby on her own and hire a nanny, while you guys chase after the teenagers.
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The adult is the one who controls access to the candy, so it’s up to the adult to set the standard for the child’s behavior.
This is very insulting to men. You are not children with no control over your actions, despite your supposed biological drive to procreate. Someone else pointed it out already, but there is a huge biological drive to gain weight, for example, yet most grown ups manage to avoid being the size of a waterbed.
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66
This is very insulting to men. You are not children with no control over your actions, despite your supposed biological drive to procreate.
control is not the issue; the issue is classical conditioning.
in both children and grown men (and grown women as well, if you’re keeping score), behavior patterns resulting in positive reinforcement become entrenched. it matters not whether you view the men/children as conscious opportunists or as unconscious automata; either will choose the action that leads to optimal results over the one that doesn’t.
—
65
Besides, if any of you knew how to be in a relationship
hint: the same techniques that generate attraction also serve to maintain attraction.
quick quiz:
are roissy and his ilk more likely to be the
1) dumper
2) dumpee
when a relationship ends?
you connect the dots.
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Inspired to search by the comments on this site, I have located the test for abusive behavior.
1) The person feels ENTITLED to expectations, which they wouldn’t agree to themselves.
2) The abuser acts out against those who fail to meet those expectations. The abuser feels that the target deserves abuse by failing to meet these expectations.
3) The abuser will state that the target caused the abuse (usually because the target made the abuser angry from not obeying or complying with the unfair expectations).
On this site we have: Men who are trying desperately to have multiple one night stands but criticize women for sleeping around. These men then say that by sleeping around, the women have proved that they deserve abuse. The men then dish it out to people on here like Sara and Dizzy, for failing to be agreeable, to women in the bar who turn them down, to women in the bar who go home with them but aren’t hot enough, to women who are hot enough but are uppity and “demanding,” to women who don’t have kids, to women who have kids but then expect alimony when the husband walks out on the family…
It never stops. It’s classic abuse. And it’s really pretty dumb – do these guys honestly have so few options that blaming the rest of the world is all they have left?
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I think that Paperdreamer is a cute girl, still young enough to form a significant bond. A man forms very strong bonds with women aged 14-22. These are the bonding years. The bond is so strong that the man will continue to love his aging women, specially if she has given him children. So yes, I would marry a woman like paperdreamer and take good care of her. On the other hand, aging fat slubs like Dizzy are just for pumping and dumping. I would for sure enjoy riding her fat ass, but she is too old now for forming a significant relationship, unless she goes for a man who is 10-20 years older than herself.
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Anon Too & Steve — Thanks 🙂
61 Usually Lurking — No need to convince me. My basic goal is to be happy: If it comes to that, I’d rather be happy alone than miserable with another person. I’ll only ever be with someone if that makes us both better for it.
65 Dislike This Site, But Can’t Stop Reading — I’m okay with you having me as an example of reality; I agree with what you’ve said to an extent. Like you, this blog conflicts with a lot of the way I wish things were or how I view what is important in life; I still can’t stop checking every so often 🙂
I think what I’ve been trying to say for a long time here is that just because people can choose how they act. Whether you’re the victim or the victimizer in whatever perspective, you have a role in everything you are. That includes knowing that the power and responsibility cannot and does not fall on one person alone.
That part of what you said, I agree with completely.
That said, I don’t think that it is useful to be harsh with people who don’t see this thing your way. Change is largely internal although it is affected very much by the external. To reach a person logically, emotionally they need to experience what you experience. But that means you need to accept that their experience is as valid as your own.
~~
On a side note, I am 20 and and undergraduate. You (guys on this blog) may not agree with me for having a different focus than what you think I should have — but more than developing my evolutionary role right now, I need to develop myself as a person. That means finding out what I love in life, think, dream, and just be. Only when I’ve found myself can I find someone else.
* I will not grow 50 pounds from children. I would probably become very ill if I did. My own mother is only 5 pounds heavier than when she had me.
* I would recommend that no one (male or female) become dependent on another person. No matter how much that other person cares for you, you will feel inadequate. That is bad for your spirit and the other person’s heart.
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#66 Dislike Etc.
This is very insulting to men. You are not children with no control over your actions, despite your supposed biological drive to procreate.
Hence my description of the analogy as imperfect. I just new somebody was going to take the “You’re infantilizing men!” angle rather than engage with the core of the argument that I helpfully supplied in the very next paragraph. Care to do that, or are you content with bludgeoning that strawman?
Of course men have control over their actions; that’s the whole point. When it comes to our attention that our actions are no longer resulting in desired outcomes, we have the capacity to change them. As long as we get what we want, however, we have not reason to do so.
Someone else pointed it out already, but there is a huge biological drive to gain weight, for example, yet most grown ups manage to avoid being the size of a waterbed.
If women found obese men attractive as a rule, you’d see a lot more guys built like Bitch Tits waddling around. But they don’t, and so guys who want to do well with women need to be careful to be reasonably in shape, just as women need to do to attract men.
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70 p.d.
That means finding out what I love in life, think, dream, and just be. Only when I’ve found myself can I find someone else.
so you view this as a process that will reach completion sometime soon?
honey, people are still trying to figure that stuff out at fifty, sixty, plus.
the catch is that people evolve, too, so even masters of introspection still must re-evaluate continually.
this is not meant to say you should go get yourself knocked up this very moment, but, rather, to say that you’re kidding yourself if you think you’ll EVER completely know what you love, think, etc. … especially while you’re still in your fertile years.
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Gannon, how do you know that Dizzy is fat? I doubt that she is. I expect she’s attractive to men who are not actually looking for 17-year-olds, which is true of a fair number of men, if my own experience is anything to go by.
There’s no doubt that very young women have a certain kind of sex appeal to all men – but that doesn’t mean that every man will respond to it with equal enthusiasm, or want to marry such a girl/woman.
I’ve read some especially nasty stories in the Canadian news of married men who seduced young girls still in high school (this was a schools scandal) whom they met via the internet, but who promptly dumped them for older women with whom they could have an enduring “relationship”. I don’t know if that means that they were more attracted to young women, but unwilling to take risks on their behalf – but the stories still left a bad impression on me.
clio
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@Clio:
Dizzy seems very angry at men. It is usually unattractive girls who develope such anger towards men. She also defends fat girls constantly.
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Paperdreamer, in 10 years, you will be 30. There is no “accepting responsibility” for that. It’s a fact. You will then be, in Gannon’s opinion, useless. What does personal responsibility have to do with it?
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You will then be, in Gannon’s opinion, useless. What does personal responsibility have to do with it?
She will be very useful for a loving husband she has BONDED with.
Look, you have misunderstood me. What I say is that for women over 25 it’s very difficult TO BOND with a man.
A man will love a girl to which he bonded and made love to when she was 15 for the rest of his life.
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15 year olds can’t get married to each other Gannon. You are advocating that a beautiful 15-year old hook up with an older man. (Paperdreamer has already missed the boat, wasting her time in college.)
And you have no evidence that a man will love a woman he loved when she was 15 when she is 30. If he wanted a 15 year old, he DID NOT want an equal. If he can’t handle an equal, he can’t handle a real relationship, and if I were Paperdreamer’s father I would kick your ass for suggesting that your desires should dictate the rest of her life. You are disgusting and selfish and not particularly logical. You think you’ll still love the 15 year old when she learns to drive, and can get away from you? You think you’ll still love her when she has more life experience, and realizes that you don’t stack up very well compared to her other options?
Why do you think you should get to take over another human being’s life in this way? You can’t handle the simplest disagreement with what you want. You’re a toddler, emotionally! Yet you think you should get to play god with a hottie? This is absurd. Your comments are absurd. You are a sick man.
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And you do realize that you equated Paperdreamer’s worth as a human being with her ability to be “useful” to a man? That was your word. USEFUL.
She’s not a toy Gannon. She’s a person. And she is much more than the measure of how “useful” she is to other people.
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My basic goal is to be happy: If it comes to that, I’d rather be happy alone than miserable with another person. I’ll only ever be with someone if that makes us both better for it.
Paper, I want you to guess how many girls told me that very thing when they were 20. Then guess how many had done a complete 180 by the time they were 35.
I am not being disrespectful. Their is a big difference between “Double Standards” and “Different Standards”. Because the Biological Clock affects girls differently than guys, girls need to worry about different things in their early 20’s.
If you say that you do not want to marry a man that is not perfect for you, then, fine. But how much are you willing to bet that your mind will not change when you are 35?
Or, let me ask a different question: how likely is it that you will NEVER want to have children?
If you think that you just might want to have children one day, then , in my opinion, that changes everything. In so much that you need to think about husbands and fathers.
Yes, I know that many women raise children without fathers, but, how many of them wouldn’t have been happier with the Husband and how many of the children would have been better off with a father.
I don’t need to know the answer to any of these questions, but you do (IMO).
Again, I am not trying to get you or anyone else to change. You should live your life as you see fit. But, to live it ignorant of some very important data, well, that can be very dangerous.
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A man will love a girl to which he bonded and made love to when she was 15 for the rest of his life
provided he’s also young.
if he’s in his late twenties, which means he’s almost twice her age, then she will be much more strongly bonded to him than he to her.
the obvious retort is that this is inherently unfair to her, although gannon has a strong riposte in the fact that women’s wandering desires are generally more destructive to relationships than are men’s.
note in particular that the author of the book in question, michelle langley, is a woman who was the guts to betray Team Woman.
lastly, i find the idea of a 15- or 16-year-old girlfriend at my age more than a bit creepy, even if it were fully legal. i suppose i’ve been indoctrinated that way by living in america.
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and how many of the children would have been better off with a father.
just the ones with at least one x chromosome.
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@ Have you changed your name now Dizzy to
Dislike this…? You sure sound like Dizzy, and the style is the same.
“if I were Paperdreamer’s father I would kick your ass for suggesting that your desires should dictate the rest of her life. ”
You know, Paperdreamer is mature enough to make her own decisions, I’m not pointing a gun at her head, but only using logic. I’m in a hurry, but I’ll answer you anyway. Men tend to bond with young, fertile, childless women. It is in their nature. Men do not bond with women past their prime fertile years (above 25). The bond between men and women is very strong. A man will always love a woman he loved when she was in his prime, specially if she bears him children.
Yes, I believe in an ideal society girls at around 14-16 would date men 8-12 years older and then marry them when they finish Highschool or at most college. The girls parent should also screen the sincerity of the gentlemann caller in order to screen out Losers, so Spungen and DA don’t need to worry.
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Only when I’ve found myself can I find someone else.
BULL-FUCKING-SHIT
Paper, do not get caught up in new age baloney. Soon enough you will meet people who are 50 fucking years old and they are still trying to find themselves.
And you better believe that the ones, especially women, that are married with children are having a better time at finding themselves relative to the ones that are alone with their cats.
Let me put it another way: think of how many people that write and promote the “be your best self” stuff are usually in their 40s or older. Oprah, Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Choprah, etc.
I am not dissin’ the idea of improving your life or “finding yourself”, but, life is life…you are going to live it.
My advice:
1. Start at the top: Do I want children at any point in my adult life? Do I want to raise them without a father?
2. Look at the women who FAILED to accomplish these things so you can spot some trends.
3. Devise a simple and REALISTIC plan for finding a good man (or whatever it is that you ultimately want to do)
4. While doing all of the things, continue to “find yourself”. Even if you fail to ever truly find yourself when you are 90, your children will look at you and say, “I love my Mommy”.
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oh, I just realized that I sorta repeated what Johnny said.
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No one else sees the slightest possiblity of irony in a bunch of “seduction community” enthusiasts lecturing a 20-year-old on the importance of settling down early with just one guy who will love her forever?
Not one of you guys married your high school sweetheart. No one on here appears too concerned about supporting a family. I’d be willing to bet no one is particularly successful. Yet you think she can give up her self reliance and depend on this bunch to take care of her? Just as long as she stays hot and never argues, right? How likely is that, really?
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“Not one of you guys married your high school sweetheart.”
You know, my gf still is in HS and I might marry her.
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Ah, Paper, I forgot, I’m 4 years older than you and I can assure you that after the age of 20 you won’t change much. You will like and dislike the things you always had.
That finding yourself is a BSline. And I suspect you know it.
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No one else sees the slightest possiblity of irony in a bunch of “seduction community” enthusiasts lecturing a 20-year-old on the importance of settling down early with just one guy who will love her forever?
Dislike, I can not speak for everyone, but we are trying to help her NOT get pumped and dumped.
We may be hyper-logical and swift with out justice, put we are well meaning.
We see how girls get pumped, dumped and left childless and unmarried at 35. Paper has come here, so, we try to help.
No one on here appears too concerned about supporting a family. I’d be willing to bet no one is particularly successful.
OK, tell me the odds and amount, I will take that bet right now.
Just because we might know how to play the game doesnt mean that,
1.) We have no interest in a Wife and Children, or
2.) See the importance of a girl avoiding soul-less pump-and-dumps, regardless of our personal inclinations.
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72 johnny five — What I meant was that I want to be free to do those things until I am a little more confident in myself to be with someone else. I can’t take care of other people if I can’t take care of myself. That means emotionally and eventually, monetarily. I don’t think anyone ever completely understands themselves. But I would like to know that when difficult things happen, I will be strong enough not to have to rely on someone else to do all the heavy lifting (It’s nice when someone is there though 🙂 )
I want to be the girl that is with someone because I want to be, not because I have to be.
74 Gannon — Sometimes really attractive girls become man- haters too. Usually due to being scorned or ill-treated.
75 Dislike This Site, But Can’t Stop Reading —
“Paperdreamer, in 10 years, you will be 30. There is no “accepting responsibility” for that. It’s a fact. You will then be, in Gannon’s opinion, useless. What does personal responsibility have to do with it?”
I know that. The responsibility bit was in reference to an earlier post about the fault of divorce and failed relationships. There are mutual-fault breakups. Sometimes people are also jerks, but the other person needs to recognize that characteristic (there are usually signs yeah?)
What Gannon thinks is his opinion. But I know who I am.
You are right in that a person’s worth is not determined by their use to another. You are bordering on Kant 🙂
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79 Usually Lurking — I know you’re not being disrespectful. I put my word out there and you are mostly free to comment on it.
I would agree with you that most girls do initially say they “would rather be happy alone than miserable with someone” and then change their minds. For the average American, I’d say a big influence is the whole girl power thing and the mainstream idea that girls need to do more/ equal of men.
But I am thinking this also because I know of women who marry men at ages and times when they really didn’t want to marry. The woman sometimes doesn’t even want to marry that specific person. But culture and family expectations really push the girl into it.
I want a life where I am happy. Sometimes people marry because they’re afraid to be alone. I don’t want that to be me. It is possible that marrying a good man will make you the happiest! That’s okay too. I am saying that it’s okay to be single if there’s no one to be a couple with.
I would not expect perfection from whoever I choose. I am far from perfect myself. But I want to feel that I am good enough for that person (and vice versa) for the long run.
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Dislike This Site, and Am a Sad Manatee
I was married, I was, and still am, very concerned about supporting my children. I’d be more concerned were I to remarry.
Domestic violence laws have nothing to do with constitutionality. If my putative second wife were to decide she were bored and needed to “cash out”, all she needs to do is call the police and mention she “feels threatened”.
Pretty soon, a TRO is in place, and I can’t go home or access my bank account.
Enjoy the feminazi paradise your ilk have created, Dislike Manatee. It will soon be populated solely by bitter single moms, spinsters, young empowered sexually liberated nubile females, PUAs and lesbian parents.
The market for cat toys and post-hysterectomy therapies will skyrocket.
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But I am thinking this also because I know of women who marry men at ages and times when they really didn’t want to marry. The woman sometimes doesn’t even want to marry that specific person. But culture and family expectations really push the girl into it.
Fair enough.
I want a life where I am happy. Sometimes people marry because they’re afraid to be alone. I don’t want that to be me.
Flip that coin, what does the opposite side say?
I am saying that it’s okay to be single if there’s no one to be a couple with.
Tell me, or anyone else that, when you are 35. Again, try to look forward and then work backward. What do you need to be doing by 23-24 to make sure that you are (fuck “happy”) fulfilled by the time you are 30.
Take a trip to Canton or Fells Point or Federal Hill and look at all the girls that are 35 and still bar-hopping. The look of desperation is pathetic.
Work on the really, REALLY important questions now so that you won’t have to freak about them later.
Oh, one last thing. And this is really important. For one whole year, stop watching TV and movies and spend that time actually hanging out with the 35 year old soon-to-be spinsters and the happily married, non-complaining, mothers. Measure the differences and apply to your own life.
(I am obviously being facetious, but, TV and Movies have started to have a real affect on what people expect. Like, having people say things like “they need to find themselves”. Wait, what?)
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I am obviously being facetious
you are not.
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actually hanging out with the 35 year old soon-to-be spinsters and the happily married, non-complaining, mothers.
to be fair, don’t stack the deck; she should also spend time with the unhappily married mothers, just to see how petty most of their complaints really are by comparison.
(eeevvverything isn’t peerrrrrrfect! waaaaaa!)
—
paperdreamer, don’t forget the following as well:
THE MAJORITY OF HAPPINESS AND THE MAJORITY OF MISERY ARE BOTH SELF-IMPOSED.
unless you are the victim of some serious iniquity, remember that it is almost entirely YOUR CHOICE whether to be happy in a particular situation.
the glass is half empty, or it’s half full; in fact, it’s either.
we don’t appreciate it when the dizzy8’s of the world, who see the glass as half empty, come around with their threnody of whining complaints.
learn to find happiness in your current situation and, shocker of shockers, you will find it. this does not preclude trying to better your situation, but it will ensure a good life. this is more difficult for modern young american women, who were almost all born with a silver spoon in their mouths (socially if not financially), but it’s not impossible.
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Dislike the Manatee
Paperdreamer -stay on track. No reason why finding a man and feeling good about your place in the world should be mutually exclusive.
Dislikable Manatee – do not despair. An emergency shipment of Cheetos, flannel shirts and batteries is on its way.
Lesbian Bed Death CAN be cured. No need to lumber out of your den.
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“unless you are the victim of some serious iniquity, remember that it is almost entirely YOUR CHOICE whether to be happy in a particular situation.
the glass is half empty, or it’s half full; in fact, it’s either.
we don’t appreciate it when the dizzy8’s of the world, who see the glass as half empty, come around with their threnody of whining complaints.”
Well put. And the better informed you are, the quicker you will find happiness.
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92 Usually Lurking — I said more stuff about looking at the other side of the coin.
“I want a life where I am happy. Sometimes people marry because they’re afraid to be alone. I don’t want that to be me. It is possible that marrying a good man will make you the happiest! That’s okay too.”
About the not having a significant other: I meant that in the sense that I don’t want to find myself in a relationship with a hideous person just because I felt the need to be with someone (anyone!). It’s kind of like how this blog tell you not to settle for just any woman. Compromise is good (we all have our flaws) but agreeing to be with someone feel “eh…” about is not good for either party.
I really think that the “important questions” are different for each person. And there’s no one saying that I can’t have both a life of my own making and one with someone I care about. I just think that for me, the latter should follow the former.
And I rarely watch TV. And only some new movies if I have time. Most of my freedom is concentrated in the summer.
By finding myself (before doing grownup stuff), I’m not talking about an extension of high school emo fads. I mean getting an education, knowing what I want to do career-wise, going interesting places around the world, being with any of my friends whenever I want. Those experiences will shape who I become and what I remember.
I don’t want my life to be secondhand to the course of life itself.
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94 johnny five —
“eeevvverything isn’t peerrrrrrfect! waaaaaa!”
yeah 🙂
“THE MAJORITY OF HAPPINESS AND THE MAJORITY OF MISERY ARE BOTH SELF-IMPOSED.”
I’ve been saying that all along haha
dizzy8 seems very angry, but maybe she has a point. She might be driving it in too deep, but it might just be driven from an extreme experience. I wouldn’t take it personally.
“this is more difficult for modern young american women, who were almost all born with a silver spoon in their mouths (socially if not financially), but it’s not impossible.”
I was definitely not born with a silver spoon in my mouth financially or socially. But I did my best and I’m happy with it so far. I agree with the idea though. Americans (guys and girls) born here seem to take things for granted more than immigrants.
95 Anon Too — 🙂 That’s the plan.
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I want a life where I am happy.
As opposed to the girls who want to be unhappy?
Sometimes people marry because they’re afraid to be alone. I don’t want that to be me.
As opposed to the girls who do want that to be them?
Paper, I am talking about plans, not wants. What I am saying is this:
Unless you are absolutely dead certain that you do not want to have children then you must start planning for that future now. It is possible to not plan for that future and still have things work out, but you would be playing with fire.
One possible path is to spend your time spitting out tired platitudes and banal comments, like “I want to be happy” or “I want to marry for love” or “I really think that the ‘important questions’ are different for each person.”.
Another path is to formulate a plan. Like looking at the differences between groups to see who would make a good mate, like “It seems like the basketball players and quarterbacks fuck a lot of girls, while the engineers and chemists tend to settle down. I think that I will look at some engineers.”
And there’s no one saying that I can’t have both a life of my own making and one with someone I care about.
Yes, you should try to get your Phd and then try to start a family. That has probably worked out for a lot of girls. (“But I don’t want to get a Phd, what I really want…” whatever).
This is our whole point. When you say that you want to make your own life, well, fuck, tha might take you till your 30, and, suddenly, the number of “good” guys that are willing to make a large investment in you has dimished greatly.
Now, maybe that statement of yours means that you plan on “making it” by 24. OK, well, now we are talking. You could find a guy by 25, be married by 27, knocked up by 28…that is not too bad.
Oh, and take Roissys advice. He spends his time talking to guys about a guys game. We can be picky because sex is real cheap nowadays.
Supply and Demand.
However, for girls, the number of “good” guys that are also exciting and willing to make a large investment who is past her prime and may have difficulty conceiving, well, he is in short supply.
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What Paper needs is a good honorable man…
like me for example. But I’m so sorry, I live in Argentina and already have a cute gf… 😉
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Interesting articles by Kay Hymowitz. I’ve got to say, I found the SYF to be far more lenient than the SYM one. Is this to be expected given the gender of the writer? When will a woman point the finger at her own gender and say “We have wrought this ourselves!”? Simply put, the woman remains desiring of the old ways, the old stereotypes, and when they are in fact present to her, she rejects them. I used to be a mature, relationship type man. Then I realized that it simply didn’t work and that no matter what women said, or thought they wanted, it was a lie. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me that some woman replies with a great refutation…
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@99
if you have a plan and things don’t work out, won’t you end up bitter/disillusioned? Not always obviously, but in general. just wondering what your thoughts are…
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99 Usually Lurking —
As opposed to the girls who want to be unhappy?
According to this blog, girls can make stupid decisions. They therefore are “asking” for it.
As opposed to the girls who do want that to be them?
No. They can’t think about it without panicking though.
“It seems like the basketball players and quarterbacks fuck a lot of girls, while the engineers and chemists tend to settle down. I think that I will look at some engineers.”
At this school, those statements are reversed for the most part.
Now, maybe that statement of yours means that you plan on “making it” by 24. OK, well, now we are talking. You could find a guy by 25, be married by 27, knocked up by 28…that is not too bad.
If I follow your plan, I will never get what I want career-wise. That’s important to me.
——-
I’m okay with not having kids. I think kids are probably second to being in a good marriage (to me, at least). But I don’t plan on having any until waaaay later. I’m still a kid now myself 🙂
100 Gannon — We all need that haha
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if you have a plan and things don’t work out, won’t you end up bitter/disillusioned?
There are no guarantees in life. But, the grand majority of women, at some point, want to have children, and they do not want to raise that child alone. They also tend to, nowadays, start way too late in making that future happen.
Better to devise a plan when you are young then say pretty things and hope it all turns out alright.
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According to this blog, girls can make stupid decisions. They therefore are “asking” for it.
I can’t speak for others. Just because you or anyone else is capable of making a stupid decision does not mean you should resign yourself to some random fate.
They can’t think about it without panicking though.
They are panicking because they waited too long.
At this school, those statements are reversed for the most part.
I am very familiar with JHU. Everywhere you go it turns out that the guys that need to do a lot of long-term planning (i.e. Scientists, Engineers, Mathematicians, Programmers, etc.) tend to be the most stable.
The guys that are more “exciting”, like the actors and writers, well, not so much.
If I follow your plan, I will never get what I want career-wise. That’s important to me.
BULL-FUCKING-SHIT.
You will have DECADES to accomplish all sorts of garbage after your children have grown.
Hey, paper, who gives a fuck what I say. Seriously. Look, you want to have your career and then try to have children after you have made it (you should be about 40 by then, right?), go crazy.
I, and every other guy here, who is on the advantageous side of the pump-and-dump, was trying to drop some knowledge.
So, wait until “way later” to think about kids. Let us all know how it works out.
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“And you better believe that the ones, especially women, that are married with children are having a better time at finding themselves relative to the ones that are alone with their cats.”
And you base this on what, exactly? You all seem quite threatened by the thought of women who are independent, choose a path of which you disapprove, and don’t think the way you believe they ought to. Your constant talking-down of them doesn’t make much sense, as they’re not what you want, anyway, so why should their not wanting you make any difference? You can still go on and impregnate as many teenagers as will have you; the single women with the cats aren’t stopping you.
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Usually Lurking — Just because it’s pretty to you doesn’t mean it’s not true to me.
I’m not resigning myself to a fate and that fate is not random.
I do fully plan on seeing people who are scientists, engineers, math people, etc. but right now I think they are too afraid to talk to me. Either that or they think I am really disgusting! I need as much time as them to get my shit together.
When I’m ~24 or 26, it’ll make more sense to start planning and looking around seriously. I don’t think it’s crazy to get married when you’re 30!
As much as people do change careers after their children grow up, I don’t want to wait 20+ more years do what I want. And let’s face it, it’s a lot harder to get things started after you exit your youth.
Most of the people I know right now aren’t in relationships because there’s no time or energy (JHU people also tend to have more issues with this). Besides, it would restrict me from talking to you fine people 🙂
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OK, well, now we are talking. You could find a guy by 25, be married by 27, knocked up by 28…that is not too bad.
Isn’t that rather boring? That kinda takes the fun out of life when you have the energy, strength, and lack of responsibility to enjoy the world. Besides, why rush into boring sex married sex and the drudgery of raising children?
tend to be the most stable
They also tend to be ugly and boring at best, and social pariahs at worst. I really don’t blame women for dating the interesting guys, and cheating on their boring husbands with interesting men.
I’ve never understood why most of the men here are so adamant about encouraging women to marry and have kids early. Most of you would be miserable as the husbands in these scenarios, and instead of a blog complaining about single women, you’d be complaining about ungrateful wives and children who crush your freedom and ruin your opportunities for sex.
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“It seems like the basketball players and quarterbacks fuck a lot of girls, while the engineers and chemists tend to settle down. I think that I will look at some engineers.”
At this school, those statements are reversed for the most part.You’re saying that the engineers get laid a lot? Either alot has changed in the four years since I graduated Engineering school OR you are living in a very special bubble perhaps created by hallucinogen use OR I am somehow missing what you’re saying. I’m certainly not saying that none of them are Don Juans (because some are), but given that it’s a male dominated field, it’s just not feasible. I remember classes of 100 people with 10 women; and the majority of those 10 were exchange students.
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Just because it’s pretty to you doesn’t mean it’s not true to me.
Wait, wait… Is it true that World War 2 started in 1939 or is true to you?
Men, on average, are taller than women: is that true or true to you?
Please don’t turn into Sara/Blueberry/candy/moron. The universe can only handle so many of those.
I need as much time as them to get my shit together.
Hey, I will say it again. Honestly, do not invest anything in what I have said. But, generic statement like that can not be helping.
When I’m ~24 or 26, it’ll make more sense to start planning and looking around seriously.
You will not be planning when you are 26 because you will be knee-deep in some go-nowhere relationship with a guy who still thinks that his band will make it. And you really support him, because, you knwo, he is really talented. And he loves you so much and …
So, yeah, you might make it out of that one by 30 and then…
I don’t think it’s crazy to get married when you’re 30!
Nor 40, or 50. So, you get married at 30 (well, you start thinking about it at 30, but, whatever)
oh god, whatever, who cares…good luck. I wish you the best.
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I really don’t blame women for dating the interesting guys, and cheating on their boring husbands with interesting men.
David, we get it. Marriage, the basic building block of every single stable society in the history of the world, is a bad option in your opinion. And, after all, the resulting children will likely not even love there own mother.
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One of the unsaid benefits of meeting your future mate in high school or college is that you really get to know the person because everyone else around you knows them. If the guy is a player or the girl is mean, someone will tell you — or you will already know by their rep.
But when you get out in the real world, people can present themselves to you any which way, because they can control the context more. They can present themselves as anything. Then, when it’s too late, you learn the guy is a jerk who really doesn’t have a job or that the girl wasn’t really on the pill.
This is why it’s harder for people who don’t meet their mates in college. “Buyer beware” is more difficult to navigate. Just a word of warning to the “get married later” crowd.
I expect Hope will be doing naked cartwheels on her roof when she reads this.
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And, after all, the resulting children will likely not even love there own mother.
Amazingly, I’m probably the poster child for a mommy’s boy so I’m not inclined to say all kids hate their parents, but admittedly some will have some resentment in some form or another.
Marriage is a great structure for raising a family, but why should we rush into the responsibility that a marriage entails? Why waste our youth on such things when we can enjoy ourselves in the prime of our lives?
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Usually Lurking, when did you turn into the resident therapist?
How many children have YOU produced? Oh, right… NONE.
“Having children” is just a ploy to get a younger chick – otherwise, you’d have a brood already.
Also, consider that science marches on – technologies like egg freezing might eliminate some of the panic some women (who genuinely want to have kids at some point) are feeling. So, less reason to settle, at 25, with a 40 year old spent up pump-and-dumper! Whee!
And, regarding falling birth rates – it might be that a certain portion of the population REALLY does not want to have kids, and is able to act on this preference for the first time (birth control). That would be really bad, indeed. But, it might be what is, in part, happening with all the leftist bitches (men and women alike) – a hatred for one’s own country and people might ultimately manifest as a desire not to have biological children. So, don’t blame all women, when the reasons for certain things might be deeper than being a woman (think crazy Angelina Jolie collecting foreign men’s spawn until finally probably being bitch-slapped by Brad Pitt and forced to accept his white-man sperm – is she more of a typical woman, or more of a typical leftist…)
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Why waste our youth on such things when we can enjoy ourselves in the prime of our lives?
Because, uhhhh, women can only have healthy children when they are young. Egg freezing and all the fertility treatments are expensive and unpredictable, and even if the owman gets pregnant an spontaneous abortion is likely, because that’s what old uteruses do a lot. That’s my whole point. Men can marry in their thirties, while women can’t. Men have 10-15 years more of partytime. Don’t blame the messenger, but nature or the Lord.
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David Alexander — Yes 🙂
109 Animus — You’re saying that the engineers get laid a lot? Either alot has changed in the four years since I graduated Engineering school OR you are living in a very special bubble perhaps created by hallucinogen use OR I am somehow missing what you’re saying. I’m certainly not saying that none of them are Don Juans (because some are), but given that it’s a male dominated field, it’s just not feasible. I remember classes of 100 people with 10 women; and the majority of those 10 were exchange students.
They don’t get laid a lot but tend to engage in more fb relationships than the lovey dovey stuff that humanities people usually do. There are still less girls, but it’s not 10% male:female ratio. It’s more ~1/3 of the undergrad engineering students here.
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Usually Lurking — All of my statements do have to be generic. I don’t have the gift of hindsight and I don’t want to narrow my vision of what a plan is to a T. Plans are not written in stone but I have an idea of what I want most from life and I’m just trying to get there.
Why do you think I will unwillingly end up/waste time with someone who is in a go nowhere band? I know better than that. That’s what I’m trying not to be!
My goal is not to “be in a relationship” but to find some sort of peace, in whatever form it comes. I’m not going to meet people I like in a bar or a club; I’ll find them at school and at work, doing stuff at places where I hang out with my friends and places I travel.
Why are you so acerbic towards me? Maybe you don’t mean it that way, but it just feels so condescending. I didn’t insult you personally. I am an idealist but try to be openminded too. I have actually gone through soem logical process to say what I said:
Who would marry me when they are 24 or 26? What are they doing? What about after college (assuming they went to the same college)? Will they return to CA or TX or whatever part of the earth is home for them? Will they stay with me? If I give up what I’ve been working for since…forever, what is the return I am getting? What about being an engineer? What about being a doctor? What the hell am I suffering for if I can’t use it the way I want? What kind of “nice” guy can’t understand that?
I honestly wish you the best too!
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You are amazing, PaperDreamer. Clearly your beauty and fulminating hotness extend deeper than the depth of the down-covered soft perfection that is your skin.
Some advice:
Stay away from betatude in all its incarnations. That includes wussy, feminized men who will in no way, shape or form, become suitable husbands for you in the future.
Have children before you are 30. I know, it sounds antediluvian, but all the murmurings about the biology of the situation on this site are true. Fertility begins to plummet at 25.
Don’t be too enamored of the working world. Women have been brainwashed into believing soul-destroying jobs are something men have kept them away from, and damn it, they need to do them! Not true. Unless you have a real profession that is significantly different from the daily grind to be worth throwing yourself into, think about what you might be giving up in order to save the world.
Lastly, date older men. Game on!
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Women have been brainwashed into believing soul-destroying jobs are something men have kept them away from, and damn it, they need to do them!
Those soul destroying jobs sure pay for that nice PlayStation, vacation to Cancun, beautiful downtown apartment, and nice sports car. It also pays for those beautiful dresses, clutch purses, and Christian Louboutin shoes.
The soul crushing jobs seem a bit more enticing than the soul-crushing kids since it pays. Yeah, the kids can love you, but they’re generally a disappointment in the long-term. Besides, who wants to raise kids while freaking out about terrorists, global warming or peak oil?
Yeah, I’m a damned dirty consumerist possession oriented bastard.
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think about what you might be giving up in order to save the world.
BTW, dumping another kid isn’t going to magically change the world and make things better. It’s just another useless drop in a sea of souls.
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Sorry Paperdreamer. You’ve made a really good case for yourself, but these guys are never going to hear it.
They want you to date them, only them, now, on their terms, without hope of anything more than that they WON’T punish you for not dating them, (ie, being an over-agressive, dried up bitter snob), and that’s it.
I don’t think your options are really either date these bitter, angry men, or be alone, though. I think the guys here have self-selected from the dating pool by going after only younger women who they hope will be more compliant. So most women won’t waste their time with a guy who won’t be a real partner, and the guys on here handle that by pretending “game” will protect them from rejection.
Maybe try to avoid anyone who sounds like he’d post here, and you might find someone who could join you in the awesome life you’re planning now, rather than try to control your life to benefit himself.
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David Alexander
My two uncles, the cop and the butcher would disagree about the fountains of wealth their jobs have generated. AS would my older cousin, the laid off programmer.
Dismal Manatee
You are bitter, and clearly your estrogen has ebbed from eons past when you were young. As your horny, sausage-fat fingers caress the keyboard after stroking your emergent moustache, ponder this: life is for the living.
The striking PaperDreamer has no need for wet blankets such as yourself or betas in training to provide her with wisdom, she already has the outlines of a plan for her life.
Eventus stultorum magister.
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May I point out the glory of a glistening bald mound?
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‘
‘Here is a link to an article by Kay Hymowitz — usually a ‘pretty good writer. It’s called “Child-Man in the Promised ‘Land” and looks at mens’ extended adolescence. I’m old ‘enough to remember when men were criticized for this in ‘the early 1980s. It was then called “Peter Pan Syndrome.”
‘
‘http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_single_young_men.html
from the article:
‘”Not so long ago, the average mid-twentysomething had ‘achieved most of adulthood’s milestones—high school ‘degree, financial independence, marriage, and children.”
‘
Let’s just make things up, shall we?
In England, pre-industrial Revolution, people often waited A LONG TIME before they had the finances to marry. Mr. Knightley, from Emma, WAS NOT A YOUNG MAN! Mr Knightley didn’t have children either.
“High School” was poorly attended, where it even existed, 200 years ago.
Financial Independence is simply a necesity for most people, and these ‘not growed up’ clearly have jobs.
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