In the last installment of visualizing beta, I ridiculed discussed in an even tone the photo of a lesser beta who wasn’t comfortable enough to drape his arm like a normal human male across the shoulders of an attractive girl. His tragic case was an obvious one. Virginal nerds, like fat chicks, can be spotted from 12 parsecs.
But what about the less obvious cases? A reader sent me an email with the following pic attached and wondered if this guy had the heart of a beta beating feebly underneath his alpha exterior. He based this on his observation that the guy’s body language seems artificial and both of their poses look forced.
The guy’s hand on her (fake) boob screams over-compensation. Real alphas don’t feel a need to claim their girl’s body parts in photos. Usually what you’ll see is the alpha leaning back and the girl claiming him with her hands all over his chest or her head nestled in his shoulder. This is evidence in favor of him being a former beta who is still getting used to the alpha aura that his steroid-fueled muscles give him.
I don’t see anything forced about her pose — she seems genuinely happy to have her tit mauled, but the dark glasses could be hiding the annoyance in her eyes. On the other hand, his pose looks awkward. He looks like he’s trying too hard to impress the photographer and however many millions will see this picture on the internet. I have to admit I am impressed by his nipples of drop-forged steel. You ever see that much nipple on a man?
Although he leans in too much he’s also turned away from the girl looking at the camera. It could be worse; I’ve seen guys in pictures kissing the tops of their girls heads affectionately.
Something about his face tells me he used to be chubby and shy. If there’s such a thing as a “beta face”, like there is a “gay face“, then this guy has it. Pouty lips, deer in the headlights eyes, a shadow of self-doubt. The overall impression is one of a muscular body attached to the wrong head.
This brings up an important issue — can a big guy be a beta? Absolutely, but it’s not nearly as common as a weak spindly man being a beta. If a guy has seriously crippling inner game issues then no matter how much muscle he piles on his weak game will betray him. This is why you can’t consistently judge an alpha male by appearances. Some of the toughest guys I knew bumbled and stumbled in the presence of women.
Since alphaness is ultimately a state of mind and heart, a beta face or an alpha body don’t tell the whole story about a man and his success with women. While a man’s physical appearance correlates with his womanizing prowess it’s far from one-to-one. See: Zach Braff.
However, if a guy gets huge there’s no doubt he’ll carry himself with more confidence. A man can’t help but feel on top of the world when he’s physically more imposing than 90% of all men. For this reason I recommend all men throw iron. It’s not as efficient or as effective as learning game or being excellent in some endeavor that matters to women, but it’s a tangible display of strength that’s bound to increase confidence. And girls like muscle on a man, all else being equal.
As long as men don’t make the common mistake of believing getting huge will automatically improve their notch count they should consider weightlifting (and I’m not opposed to the use of steroids for hardgainers like myself) an excellent adjunct to strengthening what really matters — their sense of self.
Verdict: Lesser Alpha, Former Beta
Naturally-increased muscle mass increases your testosterone, which in turn increases your self-confidence, willingness to take risks, etc…. It is also physically-appealing to the opposite sex (or the same sex if you swing that way), in a way that “game” can never achieve.
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Roissy, what makes you think you’re a hardgainer?
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I have to admit I am impressed by his nipples of drop-forged steel. You ever see that much nipple on a man?
A likely side effect of the ‘roids. If he keeps on juicing without sufficient off-cycles, he might end up with a bigger rack than the girl.
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Take a second to reconsider your steroid approval. Potential side effects include elevated estrogen, testicular atrophy and shrinkage, acne, and premature balding. I would submit that only beta thinking would make those risks seem worthwhile for somebody to build muscle faster than he otherwise would with time, focus, and a high-protein diet.
Professional athletes who use steroids to increase fame and wealth are an obvious exception – that’s a different calculation though.
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If I’m not mistaken this guy is called Pumpy on one of the funniest websites I’ve ever read. The comments are just pure gold.
http://www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com
I’ve never quite understood the compulsion to be so massive other than overcompensation so when I come across most bodybuilders I assume they’re all betas on the inside. I am rarely wrong about this. Besides most women I know don’t like the ‘roided out look, they prefer lean muscle. I believe decathletes are a good example of women’s physical preferences in men, game notwithstanding.
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One benefit of weight lifting that rarely gets mentioned is improved posture. If you have ever known anyone that was either fat or super-skinny, and then dratically improved their muscle-fat ratio, you will notice improved posture.
I am certain that increased confidence plays a role, but the strength in your back and shoulders naturally prevent you from “slumping” all the time or being “hunched” over.
Also, you want to increase “T”: Eat more Saturated Fat and Cholesterol. This is what everybody did before 1.) Steroids became the easy route and 2.) Fat and Cholesterol were wrongfully vilified.
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I’ve never quite understood the compulsion to be so massive other than overcompensation so when I come across most bodybuilders I assume they’re all betas on the inside.
Women get super-thin to impress other women (men like curves, not exposed rib-cages), men get huge to impress other men.
Also, before the roid-addled 1960s, the “ideal” man in the bodybuilding era was defined by symmetry and the “V” shape. After steroids, it was all about being hyooge.
The prime example of the previous era would probably be Steeve Reeves.
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Ok, a bit of weight lifting for sure. But this guy is fucking ridiculous, every girl that sees him is going tryhard-tryhard-try-fucking-hard, while lounge lizard agents with protruding bellies score super-status hotties. Important – DON’T BE SKINNY. FAT IS BETTER THAN SKINNY. Fat speaks subconsious volumes to the female brain about your food intake, ie your place in the tribe etc But muscle does too, as it requires good protein intake to maintain.
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what a terrifying spectre.
i prefer micheal cera ANY day of the week over this lug.
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I am with DF on this one. All men this large and overblown are compensating for something. He is a beta and this lurks underneath.
You ever notice how these kind of lugheads are getting in to fights with other guys at clubs/bars who are trying to “take” their girls? Real alphas don’t have to worry about losing their women; they command enough respect to keep her. If they do lose them, they certainly allow them to walk away, pride intact.
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“I’m not opposed to the use of steroids for hardgainers like myself…”
Steroid use is frowned upon by even the most liberal leaning doctors. The negative effects on the body are myriad. I hope you’re kidding with this statement.
There is no more Beta behavior, IMO, than taking steroids. What it says is that women are just so more powerful than men that men have to drug themselves and destroy their bodies to be “worthy” of women. This behavior goes directly against the message you’re sending — a message I now question.
I see a lack of cred here that’s changed my opinion on this blog. I wouldn’t eat a Good and Plenty to impress a woman, much less take a drug.
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I believe decathletes are a good example of women’s physical preferences in men, game notwithstanding.
Correct. Sprinters too.
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I think the pic is a photoshop job. The head really doesn’t go with the body.
It starts to make me wonder if any of Roissy’s commentary is rooted in reality.
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I think the pic is a photoshop job. The head really doesn’t go with the body.
It’s possible, but then again I’ve seen a number of guys who are similarly disproportionate. Steroids can make a man’s body huge, but – Barry Bonds rumors notwithstanding – do not make his head any larger.
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DF, Lem, I absolutely agree. Give me a tall lanky guy who has confidence because he’s confident, not because of his muscles, ANY DAY over some musclehead gym rat. That guy looks ridiculous. He either drives a mustang with the muffler removed or an F 350… jacked up so no one can get in without a stepladder. Overcompensating indeed.
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Decathletes are an OK example. Sprinters are better.
Boxers that are not heavyweights are probably the best. In Football: Safetys, Halfbacks (granted, they have gotten shorter lately), Defensive Ends, a few Wide Receivers. Many Hockey players, some baseball players.
I think that Light-Heavyweights and Middle Weights are usually the best examples in the sports world.
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First, no one here knows that he is taking drugs of any kind, much less steroids. I could be natural (I know, but some of these freaks of nature are!)
Second, it is not about over compensating. Some of us get big and some of us get lean. It depends on metabolism and body structure. I will never be lean like a triathlete. I enjoy the gym and I like being big. So sue me!
Third, even with drugs it take a lot of hard work and dedication to get big. I was there naturally in my youth (235 at 6 1/2 % body fat) and I have never been a “musclehead” although it never ceased to amaze me how many people thought I was ignorant because I was big. Now “that” will give you a complex!
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Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay!
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There’s many a woman out here who loves the swimmer’s build best – broad shoulders, tapering torso, slim hips, not so “ripped” that there’s no fat left to cover the muscle a little. And it looks more natural, so that you don’t wonder how vain he is, and how much time he has to spend working out to look that way.
But I’m from an earlier generation so perhaps our tastes are no longer common among young women.
Clio
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Clio, very few swimmers, at least at the Olympic level, have broad shoulders. I believe that truly (and I don’t mean freakishly) broad shoulders would actually hurt your aerodynamics.
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Wouldn’t you actually have to like to swim to get built like that?
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I’m not opposed to the use of steroids for hardgainers like myself
be careful what you wish for, roissy.
your beloved high-class women’s preference for the ‘lean and mean’ physique, vis-a-vis lower-class women’s preference for hunks of muscle, is well documented.
and you don’t like slumming it.
also, using steroids** to attract women is a lot like using money to attract a wife. it may pay short-term dividends, but at the end you’ll pay.
and pay.
and pay.
—
it never ceased to amaze me how many people thought I was ignorant because I was big. Now “that” will give you a complex!
why a complex?
perceived ignorance has an easy remedy: open your mouth and speak intelligently, articulately, and knowledgeably. this is not difficult.
—
**that is, in medium or large doses.
anabolic steroids can be perfectly safe and even therapeutic in small doses, but this information is largely withheld from the public because steroid users (and potential steroid users) are not typically paragons of moderation.
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J5- Thank you. I wish I thought of that. Seriously, it is a phrase used to make a point.
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There’s many a woman out here who loves the swimmer’s build blah blah blah
decathletes versus sprinters blah blah blah
we’re trying to see the forest here, and you people are looking at the individual stomata on the leaves of the fucking trees. while we’re at it, why not debate whether men like hair 5″ or 6″ below a woman’s shoulders?
enough already.
the forest is:
upper middle class women generally prefer men with the following physical characteristics:
* lean and physically fit
* big enough to provide some psychological vestige of protection, however obsolete
* strong masculine facial features
* not cartoonish
that is all.
the nuances distinguishing the body types that ALL satisfy these criteria (swimmer, decathlete, sprinter, etc) are small nuances indeed, and the idea that they actually matter, to anyone except a college recruiter, is laughable.
unless you are gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. thank you thomas.
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“Give me a tall lanky guy who has confidence because he’s confident, not because of his muscles, ANY DAY over some musclehead gym rat. That guy looks ridiculous. He either drives a mustang with the muffler removed or an F 350… jacked up so no one can get in without a stepladder. Overcompensating indeed.”
Lies. Another typical female deception / beta male self-deception like “women like nice guys”. Women say all sorts of stuff about what they like and don’t like then act in a completely different way.
You think if you asked the girl in the pic if she liked huge muscular guys (before she was doing that guy) she’d say yes? No, because then she’d have to admit that her previous men didn’t live up to the standard which she prefers; therefore, in her mind, she isn’t attractive. Women would rather die than admit this.
In studies, women are shown to have a varying preference for muscularity, increasing when they are fertile. This is published with the beta-ish conclusion that “women prefer muscular guys for short-term mates, and smaller guys for long-term mates”. IMO, what’s really going on is that women overall prefer muscular guys but recognize that they can’t hold on to them (because they know that lots of other women desire those same guys), so they get the best deal they can by ensuring that they get the genes of the big guys (fucking them while fertile) while getting commitment from the beta-ish wimpy guys (fucking them while not as fertile in exchange for commitment).
It’s like boobs in a way. Some guys (like me) say “I don’t like huge boobs” and it’s true, we don’t like huge boobs BUT what that means (for me anyway) is that I don’t like huge boobs enough to give up anything to get them. I’d rather have a girl who’s younger and prettier and has a nicer ass than a girl with bigger boobs. But if I could choose between two versions of the same girl, one of which had bigger boobs, I’d go for the women with bigger boobs.
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Mr. Roissy — I would appreciate an article on an interesting conundrum — The short alpha male.
Is this an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp?
Can an alpha nature compensate for lack of height or is this the one arena where alphaness only does so much?
Or does the shortness lead to a lack of confidence which undermines any alpha abilities?
Conversely, are some taller folks “false alphas” — alphas only by virtue of their height?
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It’s so puffed. And inflated-plastic-thing-like.
Bulk can definitely be unattractive! Muscle is nice if it looks healthy, but lean (not stick people) is fine too.
The Michelin man thing just looks weird…
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Zach Braff? Seriously? He gets women due to his fame, not because he’s got any particular skills. Are all famous men alphas now, no matter how dorky and awkward they may be? If that’s the case, you should probably start working on a post praising Fallout Boy.
And your advice on steroids had to be tongue in cheek, because otherwise you’d look pretty stupid. Some women like cocaine; are you next going to advise us to start snorting rails?
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j5,
When upper middle class women cheat on their rich, alpha, top of the corporate food chain dominant men among men husbands they do it with their personal trainers or tennis instructors. They go for fit, muscular guys just as much as lower class women only they’re not stupid enough to try to make a husband out of a lover.
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Second, it is not about over compensating.
don’t give overcompensation a bad name, as it is responsible for most, if not all, of the achievements of mankind’s great innovators, demagogues, and so on.
napoleon? overcompensating.
hitler? overcompensating.
churchill? overcompensating.
beethoven? overcompensating.
marie curie? overcompensating?
closer to home here on roissy in dc:
mystery? ross jeffries?
possibly even roissy himself?
you guessed it.
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Riddler,
one word: Napolean.
Yes, yes, I am sure that he was not completely balanced, but he was absolutely a leader of men. And he had no problem taking swift action.
Ultimately his thirst for power did him in, but hey, it happens to the best of us.
The History channel did a good documentary on the guys about 3 years ago and he was most definitely an Alpha Male.
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steve, personal trainers and (especially) tennis instructors don’t look like jay cutler. they satisfy the criteria i outlined above.
you may be hard pressed to find a tennis instructor who weighs much over 200lbs.
it’s the preference for exaggerated muscularity that is mostly the bailiwick of lower-class women.
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If you are really strong for your size –
there you go
it pushes all of the right buttons –
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Johnny, do not confuse overcompensation with obsession.
Newton, Einstein, Bach and Beethoven I would absolutely put in the “Obsession” group.
Einstein used to say that the reason that he may have accomplished more than a few others was not because he was more intelligent, but that he thought about the nature of the universe constantly. He figured that he had one good idea per month.
Bach walked 26 (?) miles, one way, to simply hear one musician when he was a youngster. He would copy scores of music as a child so much that his angry older brother took them from him and forbade him from seeing them.
Young Johann would then wake up in the middlw of the night to copy them by candle-light so that his brother would not find out.
Men tend to be good at focusing. Some men are very good at focusing. Other men become legends because of their ability to focus.
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j5, although there is no way to know for sure, I don’t think you’re right. Personal trainers and tennis instructors are simply the most physically fit guys that upper class women come into contact with. Cartoonishly muscular guys are pretty much all working class and have 0 contact with upper middle class women. I think that the personal trainer / tennis instructor examples tend to indicate that upper middle class women aren’t so different in taste than lower class women but they have different opportunities.
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“Safetys, Halfbacks (granted, they have gotten shorter lately), Defensive Ends, a few Wide Receivers. Many Hockey players, some baseball players.”
all of the above as well as decathaletes and sprinters are heavy steroid users.
none of you have any clue what you’re talking about. thousands of people, including actors getting buff for roles that women swoon over, use steroids with no side effects and everyone commenting on how great they look.
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Cartoonishly muscular guys are pretty much all working class
if you’re talking about BIG guys, like bouncer and lineman types, yes. but those dudes have enough of a complement of bodyfat to render them less cartoonish.
i’m thinking more along the lines of bodybuilder types who can afford steroids, fake tanning, ridiculous hours in the gym, other supplements, etc. to maintain absurdly low bodyfat percentages along with their bulk. those guys are almost always well-to-do, and i usually see them ending up with either (1) trailer trash biker-bitch type women, or (2) female bodybuilders who are just as cartoonish as they are.
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One good thing about the guy in the picture is that while he’s likely using steroids, his lack of a bulging abdomen means he’s probably not using the even more dangerous human growth hormone.
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thousands of people, including actors getting buff for roles that women swoon over, use steroids with no side effects and everyone commenting on how great they look.
well, yes, and note i wrote above that small doses of steroids are safe. but two points:
1) actors are a terrible example, because they only need to maintain their steroid-addled physique for the shooting of one movie; afterwards they deflate themselves back to normal, as indeed they must in order to secure other roles. such short-term usage will not create long-term problems. otoh, general-population steroid users are in it for the long haul, with the concomitant detrimental side effects.
or:
moderation is good.
2) of course there are no side effects at the time. why the hell do you think people sign up?
90 days, same as cash!
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Johnny, do not confuse overcompensation with obsession.
ul, i chose my examples carefully; note the absence of newton and einstein, your first two examples, from my list.
churchill became a great orator in large part because he was a stutterer and a clutterer in his youth.
beethoven’s encroaching deafness inspired his best work.
mystery, style, ross, et al are all compensating in spades for earlier social inadequacy.
etc.
in fact, i would be so bold as to say the following:
if you look at the bell curve of alpha-ness, whether you use roissy’s metric or a more traditional metric, most of those on the right will have been natural alphas for most of their lives.
BUT
almost all of the ones on the far, far right will be overcompensating former betas.
(analogy: if you made a bell curve of social prowess, there would be more ‘people nerds’ than ‘big men’, using steve sailer’s definitions, on the far, far right of that curve)
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i am teh guy in dat pic. u all suk.
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OK, I can see that your list was chosen for a reason. But, I still disagree with the Beethoven selection.
Peter, I have always understood that the main reason for using Human Growth Hormone was to pass steroid tests. (AFAIK, there is still know good test for HGH).
So, unless you are likely to get tested for it, you might as well use Steroids…that is, if that is the path you are looking at.
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Roissy, go ahead and juice up. I know that it will come as a surprise to many, but HBO Sports sent their pit bull reporter, Arman Keteyian, to get the skinny on the long-term effects of steroid use for HEALTHY ADULT MEN. The bottom line is there has been no proof of the serious side effects bandied about by the clueless but self-righteous MSM.
‘Roid rage- is it the steroids that causes the asshole or the asshole that’s taking the steroids? If there’s anything I’ve gleaned from 30+ years of hanging around gyms, the answer to this question is most assuredly the latter. Pencil necks start to juice up and gain some size and strength, and old slights get paid back in spades. Think Joe Pesci in Goodfellas after the shoe shine comment.
In spite of what the always-astute J5 writes, experience has shown me that higher-class women WILL enthusiastically fuck the big boys. Call it the need to be dominated occasionally, especially if they are married to “alpha” providers who look like Larry David! I found the same to be true of the rich girls in college.
Peter is correct-if this boy doesn’t cycle correctly he’ll end up with bitch tits, as the juice monkeys call them.
Wonka-see Bonds’ rookie card, then look at him now. He gained about 3 hat sizes!
Che Che is right on the money-Stallone got busted recently with the juice in his possesion. How else are you going to make a 60-year old guy look like an athlete? Pitt in Troy and all the guys in 300 were natural, right? Like pro athletes, there’s a limited time frame to make huge coin, and you do what you have to do. If pro sports and the IOC wanted a truly level playing field, they’d just allow the athletes to take whatever they wanted.
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Peter, I have always understood that the main reason for using Human Growth Hormone was to pass steroid tests. (AFAIK, there is still know good test for HGH).
Using steroids and HGH together can produce better gains than ‘roids alone.
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If pro sports and the IOC wanted a truly level playing field, they’d just allow the athletes to take whatever they wanted.
this will become necessary soon enough. ironically, the sea change will first occur not in the steroid-heavy power and speed events, though, but in the endurance events.
oxycyte appears to be the real deal, and its successors will eventually allow virtually unlimited aerobic capacity.
the knee-jerk reaction of the ioc and wada will be to ban artificial blood, of course, but the net effect will be that the ten-year-old neighbor kid with oxycyte 6.0 suddenly finds himself able to dust paul tergat in the 10k. once that happens, the legitimacy of ‘natural’ competitions will fall into instant and irreversible disrepute.
one ironic fact that gets marginalized, if not ignored, is that banning drug X is only feasible if its measurable effect on performance is sufficiently small.
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Clio, very few swimmers, at least at the Olympic level, have broad shoulders. I believe that truly (and I don’t mean freakishly) broad shoulders would actually hurt your aerodynamics.
All right – but at what point does “truly” broad become “freakishly” broad? I was thinking of “normally” broad – the way some young men used to be built “naturally”, that is through sports and work and their own genetic inheritance – but before so many people, male and female, began working out in the gym.
Clio
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Right, J5, but it’s not the oxycyte 6.0, but the non-Teflon, untracable analog that will create the problem for the “governing” bodies. I do business with a company up here in Boston that is doing trials with the Navy now on their artificial blood, which is a animal-based substance. The chances for mischief are great.
Hopefully, the artificial blood users won’t be dying like the blood-doping cyclists!
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^^ i assume you’re talking about this sort of bovine hboc-201.
that’s good stuff too, but i think it has an upper limit of 2-3x normal oxygen capacity, vis-a-vis the 40+ times yield of the perifluorocarbon stuff.
‘untraceable’ is irrelevant, as with most other performance enhancers, because the tests rely on detecting the effects and imbalances precipitated by the substance, rather than the substance itself.
for instance, ‘steroid tests’ usually just find the test:epitest ratio, which is normally around 1:1. if it’s greater than 3:1, ding! they aren’t actually detecting the presence of steroids. similarly with hematocrit tests for blood doping: over 50%? ding!
all they have to do is set the upper threshold for oxygen capacity at some freakishly high level, and, if your capacity is any higher, ding!
—
on the other hand, i would love to hear any choice tidbits about hboc-201 that are not classified.
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Clio, I am saying that if you compare all of the different speed and strength athletes, I think that you will find the swimmers on the small side (for shoulders that is).
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^^ 49 u.l.
this is because there are no swimming events short enough and requiring enough explosive power to qualify as truly anaerobic (‘speed and strength’).
if there were a 10-meter freestyle, in open water, from a treading-water start (no initial dive momentum), you would see success from radically different phenotypes.
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…and the drag coefficient associated with a non-streamlined body is much greater with water than with air.
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“Clio, I am saying that if you compare all of the different speed and strength athletes, I think that you will find the swimmers on the small side (for shoulders that is).”
Really? Back in the day swimmers had noticeably bigger shoulders than regular Joes did. Not weightlifter shoulders, but then again back in the day nobody was lifting weights, or very few were anyway. Different standards, I guess, but to me this guy has an impressive physique.
Interesting cultural-history lesson for the young ‘uns here: Before Arnold Schwarzenegger, and especially before the 1976 documentary “Pumping Iron” (about Arnold), weightlifting was by no means a common, let alone a respectable, activity. Guys who lifted were assumed to be lunkheads, or gay. It was considered a little shameful, even unmanly, to be so fixated on your looks. Real Guys might be strong and enjoy sports and physical activity. But only idiots and gays deliberately cultivated a cartoonishly pumpy look.
Schwarzenneger and the film’s director George Butler took the film to the big city, worked the critics and the media, proposed the idea that working-on-yourself in the bodybuilding way might be an artform … And ever since, people have been lifting and feeling unashamed about it.
To those of us old enough to remember life before Pumping Iron, it’s quite a change. One thing me and my greybeard buds enjoy doing is laughing at contempo movies that are set in the ’50s or ’60s. Many of the actors playing the roles are beefy and cut in the contempo way, where almost nobody back in the ’50s and ’60s was built like that. Hippies, and even dreamboat guys like Jim Morrison and Mick Jagger — who scored more girls than can be counted — were downright scrawny guys.
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Plus the dude’s a roidhead. I had a few friends in the service who used to do roids, and they said it made you feel like a god. It’s an alpha-drug. you walk around feeling like you own the world, and to a person, they said it was an amazing feeling and they missed it. Most of them were also formerly skinny or small in stature too, so they were overcompensating. while this guy does have a deceptively skinny neck (buried beneath his traps) and a chubby face/weak jawline, he’s as tall as that air conditioning unit, so he’s most likely a fucking giant. but that being said, he could have been extremely awkward in highschool.
one of the funniest things is when your roid-head buddies confide in you that becoming monsters actually hurts their game because most chicks arent into it, or they attract chicks they’re not interested in. irony…
oh, another explanation for this picture is that they’re actually “BFF’s”. he could be such a cuddle bitch that the girl he’s with doesnt mind if he jokingly grabs a boobie while taking a picture. he quickly changes his face for the camera to make it look like he’s a badass, but down there she’s thinking what a giant teddy bear he is.
later on that night, he cried himself to sleep after a 3 hour flurry of masturbation which yielded no climax thanks to his roidage.*
* (all the guys i know who roided did it very safely and methodically, and side effects.)
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Really? Back in the day swimmers had noticeably bigger shoulders than regular Joes did.
MB, you quoted me saying something very different. We talked about different “athletes”. Someone mentioned that swimmers had broad shoulders, I said they didn’t, at least relative to the other athletes mentioned.
I am sticking by that.
Different standards, I guess, but to me this guy has an impressive physique.
Good for you, you found a swimmer with wide-ish shoulders. Again, I was comparing averages to averages.
Schwarzenneger and the film’s director George Butler took the film to the big city, worked the critics and the media, proposed the idea that working-on-yourself in the bodybuilding way might be an artform … And ever since, people have been lifting and feeling unashamed about it.
MB, there is no doubt that everything changed after Arnold. His impact was huge. But there were magazines around for decades that promoted weight lifting. Also, the gym, weights and exercise culture in Calif. had been around for a while. Granted, it was more popular in Cali than Vermont, but it was on the cultural landscape.
And the “gay” thing is strong to this day. Even at sites like “T-Nation” you see guys get defensive all the time that you, or anyone else, might imply in the smallest way that what they are doing is not perfectly and traditionally masculine.
However, listing for strength is still considered perfectly OK.
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I won’t come out for steroids… because I haven’t looked into what it actually does, having no reason to. But. American Doctors have never, ever, been discouraged by the fact that they are saying absolute nonsense, and they know it. A Real Alpha is believed because he is Alpha Dog, and not because he is saying the truth. So anything you “know” about steroids, outside of excessive overuse and poorly made junk, is almost certainly wrong.
Simple example, “DWI Breathlyzers Are Accurate”. You get doctors saying lies for all levels of prol, but they are all still lies. At base, the air/blood “partion ratio” varies so wildly between people/time/temperature/breathing speed/[ect * 20] as to make any “result” absurd. Of course, since people with 0.10 “Blood”(actually, Air Alcohol*2100(but not really, see later)) Alcohol content can be completely sober, how would they know they actually have a BAC of 0.07 and a Partion Ratio of 1500? They feel sober at both levels, so how could they tell if the machine was wrong? But don’t worry, there are doctors out on the internet who make up their own numbers, so we can have a ‘controlled hangout’ situation. In addition to the doctors that simply pretend the partion ration doesn’t exist. As I said, a lie for every prol. With so much lying going around, it’s hard to find out the real variability, but it’s a good bet that it is between 1300:1 and 3300:1. The 2400:1 to 1700:1 ratio sited by many is Alpha Dog Truth. And you do want to believe Alpha Dog, don’t you?
Also, any number of substances can absorb infrared light around/at the same frequency alcohol does. Oh, this can be corrected for…. up to a point. But real humans have alot more complicated biology, and exhaust, than any “air and alcohol” mix. Keyword Search:”Acetone + BAC”. And I know enough about chemistry to know that if the worthless pieces of -bleep- are confusing CH3CH20H with CH3COCH3 then they are a piece of -bleep- and they are an effective random number generator.
The worthlessness of the test is hidden by the fact that most people are not drunk at 0.10, so they accept the wrong reading…. because heh, they don’t feel drunk, and that’s about right, isn’t it?
But does that matter in the world of Alpha doctors? No.
Summing:
Steriods cause you to turn into a 2 ton green creature that kills smurfs. Believe me, because while I’m not a doctor, I play one on TV. I hope this establishes my alpha level sufficiently that the rest of my post can be viewed with wide eyed credulity.
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U.L. — As I said, “back in the day” … And indeed back in the day swimmers were known for bigger shoulders than other athletes, including basketball players, football players, etc. When chicks were in a mood to drool over the physiques of athletes in, say, 1970, they drooled over the swimmers. Guys used to go into swimming partly because it helped them have better luck with girls, and Olympic swimmer Mark Spitz was, for five minutes, quite a sex star. By 2008 standards he hardly looks “developed” at all, but at the time he was a hunk. What this means in the larger picture of course is partly that back then big shoulders were not very big by our standards. But it also means that big shoulders generally simply weren’t a huge priority for men to develop or for women to drool over.
And of course there was a big culture of bodybuilding pre-Arnold. But it was a subculture that was generally looked on as very peculiar and bizarre. “Pumping Iron” is what took bodybuilding into the mainstream.
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Love ya man, but no way am I buying into the premise of Zach Braff as an alpha male.
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From Wikipedia:
“Zachary Israel Braff (born April 6, 1975) is an Independent Spirit Award-winning American television and film actor, director, screenwriter and producer. During the 2000s, he became known for his role as John “J.D.” Dorian on the NBC sitcom Scrubs which earned him his first Emmy nomination. Braff also wrote and directed 2004’s Garden State. The soundtrack record, which he selected and produced, earned him a Grammy for Best Soundtrack Album in 2005.”
So, he’s a multi-millionaire, award-winning TV star who also wrote and directed his first film before age 30. Yet not an alpha male? I don’t think so, dude. I think he could out-alpha anyone who has ever even looked at this blog.
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And of course there was a big culture of bodybuilding pre-Arnold. But it was a subculture that was generally looked on as very peculiar and bizarre. “Pumping Iron” is what took bodybuilding into the mainstream.
The pre-Arnold bodybuilders, such as Steve Reeves, Reg Park and Frank Zane, had physiques that were very impressive but far less freakish than what one saw later. In many ways they looked much more athletic than the hugely muscled ones that followed.
In fairness to Arnold, he wasn’t the first freakish-looking bodybuilder. Sergio Oliva, a Cuban exile and Chicago policeman who won the first Mr. Olympia title in the mid-1960’s, certainly didn’t look like the average weekend lifter.
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Sorry, Braff is still not an alpha. He’s a diligent, high-performing beta. Being rich and successful alone doesn’t make you an alpha. He is a beta that creates art geared toward other betas, of which there are a ton in this country, especially in the white, indie rock sensitive wuss demographic he targets. He’s a hard working beta that become rich and famous by targeting other betas out there, because as a fellow beta himself he understands their sensibilities and tastes better than anyone.
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“…especially in the white, indie rock sensitive wuss demographic he targets.”
This is the affulent mainstream culture of the US.
Also, as someone who deals with the arts, I can tell you that you will not find a more cut-throat, competitive environment than amongst actors. And for high level actors, this goes double. A beta would run out of the first failed audition.
Braff has cultivated an image of a Beta; that’s not what his millions and fame evidence.
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Rock on!
You have a real eye for distinguishing the true players from the wannabes.
See how you do with the picture on my blog. Of course, the picture I use for my “Stud or Scrub” post is a no-brainer– the guy screams beta.
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A man doesn’t need to have a well-developed physique to appreciate a glorious clean-shaved mound.
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That bodybuilder is clearly looking at something else (another woman on the beach). He is distracted by something. I dont think I’d try to psychoanalyze him based on such a photograph. There is no telling what is on his mind.
And…………………he might be gay
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this is just too good to be true:
this dizzy has a blog, so i took the bait and went over and looked at it. i was (not so) shocked to find the following comment, from a certain ‘ken’:
(emphasis mine)
I still don’t see law school the way you do, and I probably never will. But I am happy to see you sticking it to men for the double standard, both because you’re right about it and because I know that I am at times guilty of it myself. And the simple fact of the matter is that I’m not that self motivating anymore, so about the only time I hit the gym consistently is when I have a relationship prospect. There haven’t been many of those in the last 2.5 years. But the next best thing is a good foot in the ass, so thank you for coming out of retirement to provide it. ; )
—
yet another firsthand illustration of just how much women loooove sniveling milquetoast feminist boys.
if anyone else wants proof of everything that roissy has been saying all along, please raise your hand.
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guys, just remember the purpose of the stomach/belly – TO STORE AND BREAK DOWN FOOD. It’s not meant to be a muscle to hone.
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doba: “I think he could out-alpha anyone who has ever even looked at this blog.”
T: “Sorry, Braff is still not an alpha. He’s a diligent, high-performing beta.”
No one has formulated what the definition of “alpha male” is here. There is no consensus between posters, and it is often used in inconsistent and self-contradictory ways even by the same person. For example, roissy saying it’s defined by mating potential and then adventitiously excluding men with high mating potential.
So obviously these kinds of arguments aren’t going to go anywhere.
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“As long as men don’t make the common mistake of believing getting huge will automatically improve their notch count they should consider weightlifting (and I’m not opposed to the use of steroids for hardgainers like myself)”
For those who don’t know, hardgainers are those with bodies and muscles that do not grow and strengthen in response to exercise.
That’s due to low levels of TESTOSTERONE.
Being a leader, winner, fucking a lot, etc. have all been prove to lead to HIGH levels of testosterone.
More proof that Roissy is actually BETA.
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One last comment on the swimmers’ physique “issue”: I praised their shoulders, which may well seem relatively narrow by today’s standards, because that’s the degree of shoulder-breadth I admire in men. I really dislike the over-developed back and chest muscles that body-building men have nowadays. The male swimmer’s torso is attractively v-shaped, with shoulders that are broad (probably as the result of both genetics and the kind of exercise he does) but not pumped-looking. Some of us admire that look, though not to the exclusion of other less tangible qualities, of course.
Clio
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Re: hardgainer (to which Roissy has not replied)
To be sure, everyone differs in their lifting potential, but I dislike the term “hardgainer” as it is self-limiting and offers a ready excuse for failure. I would ascribe Roissy’s lifting shortcomings more towards a lack of true desire to improve, which would possibly be reflected in poor exercise/routine design and lower recovery due to sex addiction/late nights/drugs&alcohol. What we went, we usually get. His thing is sex, not strength.
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yeah i’d agree he’s definitely hiding something. a real alpha would have that girls hands all over him not the other way around.
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I don’t know anything about Zach Braff except that he has dated an absurd list of attractive women who are famous enough not to be overwhelmed by his resume. Don’t make the mistake of thinking he’s a beta just because he plays one on TV.
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I don’t know anything about Zach Braff except that he has dated an absurd list of attractive women
exactly. this is what i meant when i said zach braff is an alpha.
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rain and:
For example, roissy saying it’s defined by mating potential and then adventitiously excluding men with high mating potential.
more accurately, i’m saying alpha male is defined by not just mating potential but the ability to move that potential to kinetic fucking. so my definition excludes those admittedly rare “leaders of men” who for whatever psychological barrier, have trouble bedding women when that is what they want to do.
as for mark penn, i was being somewhat facetious, as i do believe he is a greater beta, but his sheer ugliness and probable lack of any game whatsoever hinders his promotion to true alpha status.
anon:
For those who don’t know, hardgainers are those with bodies and muscles that do not grow and strengthen in response to exercise.
That’s due to low levels of TESTOSTERONE.
that’s only one reason. the more likely cause of most hardgainers is a relative lack of type II muscle fiber and an ectomorphic frame, regardless of testosterone level.
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Peter-Zane was more of a contemporary of Arnold’s, and probably had the most balanced body in bodybuilding then, as well as having an extremely hot wife. They were posing in ads for years in the muscle mags. I’m surprised you know much about bodybuilding; they shave everything!
Pre-Oliva, comparing bodybuilders then to now is more like comparing the women today competing in “fitness” competitions with the monstrosities that are female bodybuilders. The sheer size difference is staggering. Swimmers back in the day had better bodies than most of the other athletes (Babe Ruth, anyone?). But look at the rest of sports. Johnny Weismueller, undefeated as an Olympic swimmer in the 20’s, wouldn’t qualify for the women’s team today, never mind the men’s. George Mikan was the first true big man in basketball in the 40’s, but today he’d be a small forward. How many hockey players could you find pre-1990 that are 6’9″ and shoot the puck 100 mph like Zdeno Chara? Your average NFL offensive lineman in the 70’s was about the size of a modern fullback. Blame it on genetics, nutrition and modern execise programs.
Roissy’s addiction to the nightlife in no way impacts a good training program, but I don’t know if the level of narcissism needed is there. Hopefully, he’s too busy getting laid. But like the women I help at the gym who fret, before picking up a single weight, that they’re going to get too muscular, if ya ain’t got the genes, you’re pissing into the wind.
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These posts show that hostility to steroid use marks one as a beta. Us alphas know that occasional 6-week cycles of steroids are harmless. We all did them while playing college sports.
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I mean “We alphas”.
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Ok, so I’ll throw this question out there. If I wanted to do a 6 week cycle of deca and test how could I reliably get my hands on a supply?
Can you trust veterinary supply? Online drug stores in foreign countries? Any online fora where I can read reviews of suppliers?
Pretty fit now but wasn’t a college athlete so I’ve got 0 experience in copping steroids.
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j5 40: Don’t forget Stephen Hawking. He was a fuckup before he was diagnosed with ALS. Thinking you are going to die young focuses the mind.
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anabolic steroids can be perfectly safe and even therapeutic in small doses, but this information is largely withheld from the public because steroid users (and potential steroid users) are not typically paragons of moderation.
Not to mention the sexism factor. Look at the difference between the treatment of small doses of estrogen to counteract the effects of aging among post-menopausal women (almost universal, medically accepted although there are some known health effects), and the refusal to even research the use of small dosages of testosterone to counteract aging in men.
Obviously megadoses of steroids are ridiculous. The use of steroids when you are young seems silly as well, unless you’re a professional athlete or the like. But there are all kinds of effects of the decline in endogenous hormones as you age.
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This is one of the most godawful pictures I’ve ever seen in my life.
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Does anyone else on the face of the earth remember this except me? Michael 2B? DoBA?”
From the Lil Abner musical (whose name I don’t know):
Put ’em back
the way they wuz
oh, put ’em back the way they wuz.
They was dumb, they was heathen,
but at least they was breathin,
so whatever else you does,
Put ’em back the way they wuz!
Put ’em back [put em back]
The way they wuz [the way they wuz]
oh, put ’em back the way they wuz!
They was plumb unattractive,
but by gum, they was active,
so I beg you kindly ’cause,
put ’em back the way they wuz!
Put ’em back [put ’em back]
The way they wuz [they way they wuz]
oh, put ’em back the way they wuz!
They was not known for beauty,
but they sho done they duty,
and they made the boudior buzz!
Put ’em back the way they wuz!
They was long, lean, and lanky,
but they loved hanky-panky
they did things that outdone duz!
Put ’em back the way they wuz!
They wuz vile lookin’ varments
wearing vile lookin’ garments
but they knowed a his from huz…
put ’em back the way they wuz!
Put ’em back [put ’em back]
The way they wuz [they way they wuz]
oh, put ’em back the way they wuz!
They was no shakes as lovers,
but they warmed up the covers,
covered as they wuz with fuzz!
Put ’em back the way they wuz!
– sung on the occasion when the men of Dogpatch had suddenly become strikingly well-developed and handsome, but at the same time entirely uninterested in their wives…
Of course, the words and lyrics are terrible, but they seem remarkably prescient today, esp. if you read others from the same musical.
Clio
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Roissy, you described the guy in the photo as having deer-in-the-headlights eyes.
He, like the girl, is wearing shades. So how can you TELL?
(If this question was already asked, mention the number and I’ll go to it. I just didn’t feel like scrolling through all 82 replies…)
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Steve Johnson, go to almost any gym. The chick gym I currently go to with my girlfriend (so named because the dumbbells only go up to 85 lbs.) has about a dozen guys I could score from. A Gold’s or private musclehead gym will turn up even more.
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The term “hard gainers” is total bullsh*t. Most people don’t know jack sh*t about diet, lifting and science. People who are skinny don’t eat enough and probably lift weights like gay Europeans. The simple truth is that if you eat enough HEALTHY foods and create a caloric surplus you will gain weight. After that it comes down to dedication, another area where most people fail. You can’t look like Arnold in a year, he spent every year to get that body. It is just like being fat, you don’t magically turn into a ball of jello in a month, it’s accumulated fat over the course of your life. I personally wouldn’t use steroids yet since I’m young enough. No need to since testosterone levels are highest between ages 18-25. People should use testosterone replacement after 30 if they want to continue looking young. This still doesn’t change the fact that you have to be dedicated in other areas like diet and lifting.
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The single most important physical trait a man can have is height. If you look at women’s profiles on match.com, they mention that, often to the exclusion of every other physical feature.
After that, a man should be well-proportioned, neither fat nor thin, but being overly muscular isn’t so valuable.
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Do NOT take steroids!! Especially if you are already a student of the game and know that more muscle has little marginal improvement in your attractiveness vs. being able to pass shit test effortlessly.
Steroids WILL cause testicular atrophy. They will also ruin your knees and end your life early. About one-third of famous pro-wrestlers from the 80s and 90s died before the age of 45, and they tended to have the most roided-up appearances. The ones still alive are the thinner, more agile ones.
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Please…listening to all the folks bash steroids without anything other than watching TV for source knowledge.
“There is no more Beta behavior, IMO, than taking steroids. What it says is that women are just so more powerful than men that men have to drug themselves and destroy their bodies to be “worthy” of women. ”
This couldn’t be a more beta, strike that…gamma, answer. Most likely from someone who is completely clueless. The primary effect of anabolics is to decrease recovery times by improving muscle repair times. This in turn allows for a more agressive training program to increase either size or strength to be used.
Responsible use of anabolics in otherwise healthy adult males over the age of 25 has been shown to have virtually no side effects period…and I challenge anyone to demonstrate otherwise. All the anecdotal stories are just that..anec-freaking-dotal.
The guys that died supposedly from steroids: uhm yeah…nobody asks about their horrible diets…ro in the case of wrestlers, the ridiculously demands they place upon their bodies??? Despite being choreographed, pro-wrestling is very, very hard on the athletes themselves…not to mention the number of working days vs. recovery time schedlue is just ridiculous.
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Don’t bash steroids. Scientifically there is no proof they do more harm than cause acne and hair loss on HEALTHY, ADULT, MALES who use the steroids in MODERATION.
Again, I stress this part – HEALTHY, ADULT, MALES, MODERATION.
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Most (strike that, ALL) of the guys I know who do body building are betas at heart and always will be. I mean, unless you’re lifting logs in the forest, the modern man doesn’t need extra muscle beyond what is necessary and healthy for daily life. All that extra tissue that the body must maintain and repair decreases life expectancy compared to guys who are athletic and thin. Let’s face it, your body was born with a limited amount of energy. Once it’s depleted, you die. If spent on building and repairing a large amount of mass that the body doesn’t really need, that shortens lifespan. It must. Extra muscle doesn’t translate into extra health. If you took two guys who were exactly the same, but you strapped a 30lb weight to one guy and made him carry it around his whole life, he would die sooner. Maybe not a lot sooner, but sooner nonetheless.
So then the question is, if extra muscle is totally non-functional and most likely shortens lifespan, what is the need to have it? To attract women and intimidate other men of course. But… does an alpha need to be physically imposing to do that?
Hmmm…
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guys…frankly..everyone knows that the guy in the picture is a pure beta..he looks imposing, i would say with certainty..but if u want to get a clearer picture i would suggest, watching troy..Bradd Pitt was way more alpha than the 9 foot giant he was facing..confidence is what defines and makes and alpha..for some its muscles, for some its money..fr others its a lot of other things..and as a general rule alphas usually don waste too much time..on the gym, since they are naturally healthy, trim(since they get the opportune to fuck around)..and are devising ways to improve thier harem..by being successful….
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you guys fail at understanding people. we all have are issues every one of us has an insecurity whether you want to admit or not. Even the most confident guy. The point im trying to make is classifying people into two groups is way too close minded. Women as you all think you understand so well dont think about this beta or alpha stuff and if they do then they are probabley ..wait they are probabley just like you guys superficial and promoting dangerous drugs to a bunch weak minded people.
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