I get this occasionally from some girls I date, usually after they have dumped a major shit test on me and I am forced to respond with advanced game:
“Why does everything have to be a test with you?”
I thought about this and reflected on my history with women. It was partly true. With certain girls I’ve dated, I was in game mode all the time. One girl even said that she knew when I would return her calls because I would always wait the requisite 20 minutes.
Dispiritingly, dogmatic game — press this button, pull that lever — will work as intended. You can 
never truly BE YOURSELF with women because almost all men being themselves will regress to lounging on the couch in their underwear as long as their basic needs are met. Literally, you could put a feeding tube in a guy’s mouth, a drainage tube up his anus, a playstation controller in his hand, and a girl’s mouth on his cock and he’ll lay there like that until he spontaneously self-combusts.
And women too. Look what happens to women who have totally given up on finding a man — they blow up like whales, wear flip flops all the time, and cut their hair short. When you see a frumpy, charmless, fat woman you know she is BEING HERSELF.
So why do I overgame with some girls and not others? It’s not a looks thing. Some of the prettiest girls I’ve been with were a breeze to handle once in a relationship, even though during the first crucial dates they were the toughest to game. Hot girls tend to frontload their gameplaying, so if you breach their beachhead it’s a clear march to center city.
I think it’s an ego issue, or maybe one of intelligence. Very smart girls are always on the lookout for Machiavellian maneuvers in their men because they do it themselves. The world is our mirror. Combined with a powerful but sensitive ego, a girl like this will be hyperaware of manipulation and deathly afraid of getting hurt. Stephane of Ideagasms calls these types of women (and men) Interrogators — a subspecies of Energy Vampires:
Interrogators are (initially) difficult to detect, because
they are perfectionists; These people see the life as a
competitive GAME and they are quite masterful when it comes
to manipulating others.Their philosophy? “Life is just a game – You either play
by the rules, or you’re a loser.” They see the world as
Win/Lose instead of Win/Win.That’s a great metaphor for explaining what Interrogators
do to people, because when you spot an Interrogator and try
to gently point out what he or she is doing, they too will
pretend that they are innocent and that this heavily
ingrained and entirely OBVIOUS pattern of behavior does not
exist.Then they will turn around and casually remark that there is
something wrong with YOU. They’ll go, “Why would you say
that? Why are you so PARANOID, huh?” (Notice they are not
really asking a question, but rather, making a statement
about you.)Or they will accuse you of being “too sensitive”… as if
*sensitivity* was a bad thing!MANY of the top “seduction community gurus” are simply
INTERROGATORS. This is why they “play the game” and have
all sorts of complicated “chess moves” and strategies for
interacting with women. They have a HIDDEN AGENDA.Interrogators ask a lot of rhetorical questions, and often play
“Devil’s advocate”. But, the questions they ask are not
questions at all! It is their attempt to break down your
reality in the form of negative presuppositions about you.
Overgaming can be caustic to forming a relationship with a girl you really like. The best relationships are built on a foundation of sincerity, not mutually asssured deconstruction. It’s a tragedy when the couple really like each other and the mutual gaming undermines the potential for a deeper connection. Game and ego-protection will always be a necessary component of any interaction you have with quality women, but it should be relegated to a supplement after a certain amount of bonding has occurred. At some point, you have to open your heart and let the chips fall where they may.
So when I game too much for too long, it’s with the girls who deserve it. If I’m getting shit tested all the time, or she’s in Aloof and Indifferent mode every other day, or I sense that she’s hiding something, I will respond in kind. We calibrate our actions and behavior to match the other person’s. Women, being the gatekeepers and mate choosers, are responsible for how men strategize to get in their pants and their hearts. If a girl makes it hard for a guy to be sincere by playing Miss Scheming Queen, he will react with more game. If she’s letting him know how much she loves him, he will be real with her.
You get what you give.
Make no mistake, this is not an anti-game screed. Game is absolutely essential in the beginning stages (See: Mystery Method’s A1 – S3) for every women you want to sex, unless your value is so much higher than hers that you can do nothing and she’ll throw herself on your junk. Relationship game is also important to keep the embers burning.
But in time the doubt has to ease and the soul has to breathe. Anything less would be… uncivilized.
You get what you give.
What if you don’t? If you’re open and honest, and he’s still gaming… how long do you wait?
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Yo, true story……. this IS real talk, get em
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Literally, you could put a feeding tube in a guy’s mouth, a drainage tube up his anus, a playstation controller in his hand, and a girl’s mouth on his cock and he’ll lay there like that until he spontaneously self-combusts.
A fine idea … so long as the girl has a Glorious Natural Pelt.
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Hmm. Not all men are quite as simple as that.
By the way, just out of curiosity, because it hardly concerns me at this time, is there still any man out there who prefers actual sexual intercourse to the more exotic forms of sexual contact routinely praised here? And if not, why? Are you all too lazy for the effort involved? Or is it the pregnancy/disease factor that inhibits you?
I expect a very x-rated thread, if anyone decides to answer that question, but I am truly curious, so I’m bracing myself.
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My favourite by far is vaginal intercourse. Although obviously a tight teen vulva helps a lot. If the woman had a lot of children anal might be better. Some women should definitively reconstruct their vaginas after childbirth.
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I hope this doesn’t get too x-rated as many of us are on our work computers.
By more exotic forms of intrecourse, are you referring to drop-chute-entry practices so lavishly praised here by no less than by our fine host? If so, I don’t see the appeal, personally. I’m imagining leakage problems from continuous abuse. Gross.
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@PA:
I don’t know about the leaking problem. Among catholic girls who want to remain virginal for their husbands, anal and specially oral is very popular. It’s probably easier to get a blowjob than getting pussy.
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The world is our mirror.
Couldn’t this just as easily apply to you? You’re looking for signs that women are playing games, so you find them.
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“What if you don’t? If you’re open and honest, and he’s still gaming… how long do you wait?”
I agree with what I think Roissy is getting at that it’s a woman’s job to open her heart first. But then the dude either gets it or he doesn’t. The most hardened players can spot sincerity in a second. So if a guy is still playing then he’s a novice or maybe you’ve simply got incompatable objectives.
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By the way, just out of curiosity, because it hardly concerns me at this time, is there still any man out there who prefers actual sexual intercourse to the more exotic forms of sexual contact routinely praised here?
In such varied pursuits as literature and art, no one has ever surpassed the old classics. And so it is with sex. The old fashioned – classic, if you prefer a less pejorative term – method is still the best, and barring some unforeseen evolutionary changes always will be.
On a separate note, you should drop the “it hardly concerns me at this time” disclaimer. From reading all the quasi-pedophilic rantings on this site one would be led to believe that women over age 30 are dried-out sexless husks. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course.
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“Among catholic girls who want to remain virginal for their husbands, anal and specially oral is very popular. It’s probably easier to get a blowjob than getting pussy.”
There are a hundred reasons why this makes no moral sense at all, but I expect you’re right just the same.
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At what point does “game” become pathetic?
I like attractive and girly women just as much as any other young man, but don’t see anything wrong whatsoever with a suburban house, two kids, and a steady job. Your wife may not look as hot at 40 as she did for some other guy at 20, but the family life can be fulfilling, as it is for many tens of millions of people.
At some point all the drama and “game” just gets tired, no?
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Damn, this is good roissy.
Lisa, you got it.
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Beautiful post.
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Bitches exhibiting machiavellian behaviors make me want to mushroom-stamp their foreheads.
Good post!
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“You get what you give…”
Sure Roissy. That’s one school of thought.
Another would be that other people don’t determine how you, personally, act. That no one can “deserve” poor treatment. And that your long whine about how you “only do what they make you do” is merely a convenient rationalization to avoid personal responsibility for your own actions.
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maeby:
What if you don’t? If you’re open and honest, and he’s still gaming… how long do you wait?
you have to ask yourself, maeby, if he sees you as being open and honest. because if he can’t feel your heart, all of it, he’ll be reluctant to give his.
even if he wants for all the world to give it.
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Huh. I could have written exactly this post as a criticism of Roissy and his non-stop insistence on viewing women as The Enemy.
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4) One thing I could never quite fathom was the fascination with BJ (maybe I never met a girl any good at it, who knows, some girls seemed more interested in it than I was). Maybe the no pregnancy, low risk of HIV (herpes is probably a higher risk though) angle is attractive to some.
As for anal, I suspect the main fascination is because it is in very short supply. Or some sort of pushing the envelope.
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viewing women as The Enemy.
Wrong word choice. Roissy loves women. “Adversary” is better.
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@17 roissy
You might be right. Patience was never a virtue of mine…
@ 20 PA
Agreed; adversary is much more appropriate. 🙂
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A little off topic but related to Clio’s question…
Apparently because of the prevalence of male circumcision, the glans of most American men today have lost a great deal of sensitivity (and lubrication) and thus these men habitually pursue more vigorous or ‘exotic’ forms of sexual stimulation!
Over time, these acts have come to be considered the norm, but if more men still had their foreskins, vanilla sex would probably be enough for many. Plus less women might want to give oral, but hey that’s a topic for another day.
dont snip your little boys, genital integrity for all!
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That’s one reason why, even if they don’t have as much raw sex appeal as somewhat older girls, girls in their late teens are so much more refreshing to be around — they don’t play games nearly as much (even the really smart ones), so you don’t have to suit up for battle so often.
Mystery himself says that the basis for his Attraction gambits is that a good-looking 20-something has been hit on 10,000 or more times. Not to mention that she’s had some bad experiences with guys and is starting to become a bit jaded about men’s motives.
It’s only our modern environment, where females remain single and sexually receptive throughout their 20s, and often into their early and mid-30s, that requires guys to learn some Game.
You’ll see when you travel Eastern Europe looking for “the barely legal girl of my dreams,” as you put it. The basics need to be there, but young girls fall in love so easily and incurably that it’ll seem like a different planet from a “see and be seen” bar in DC.
I’d worry more about gaming, er, persuading her parents that there’s no cause for concern. They will not be so trusting.
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I’d give your latest essay a solid B-.
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I’ve got an off-topic question for roissy and the rest of the PUA’s reading this.
Picking up random chicks is fine and fun and not terribly hard to accomplish in today’s world; but, my question is comes from the combination of three factors:
1. I hate, hate, hate wearing condoms. I’d rather jerk off than have sex with a condom.
2. I’m deathly afraid of STD’s. Now I know that the prevalance of truly harmful STDs is grossly overrated; but, I just can’t help it. I don’t want warts on my junk.
3. Absolutely no desire for a LTR.
What do you guys do? Do you sacrifice pleasure and wrap it up or do you just roll the dice?
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K-Dawg: limit yourself to vaginal and oral sex. Don’t do anal on a girl without a condom, unless you know her very very well.
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male circumcision is just a way for jewish doctors to make money. The foreskin is a protective membrane, and nature put that thing there for a reason.
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Wouldn’t the essence of alpha be to simply do whatever you’re naturally inclined to do, expressing yourself freely, and letting the cards fall as they may? If the woman continues to play games or tramples over your feelings, then don’t hesitate to move on and not look back; but this tit-for-tat, responding in kind to a woman’s every hormonally-driven caprice or Machiavellian bitch tactic seems decidedly unmasculine.
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Amen Alex. At 45 I just walk away from any woman who engages too many resources. I’m busy. I have things to do and women to lay. She’s either into me or not.
As a general rule I get to bed very attractive women in the 25-35 range, so this strategy works well. The last one was a relatively succesful fashion model, 28 yrs old — but her head wasn’t screwed on straight. She didn’t know when to stop testing and the mutual-assured-destruction scenario took place.
Status, confidence, humor and amused aloofness go very very far.
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“you have to ask yourself, maeby, if he sees you as being open and honest. because if he can’t feel your heart, all of it, he’ll be reluctant to give his.”
I hate to be Crotchety Addams here, especially when you’re saying something womantic. But it’s like this – each gender has their role to play. The man approaches first and the woman shows her heart first. But a woman should not have to lay it all out there and put herself out as you suggest without some reciprocity along the way. The same way when you approach a woman you should not have to lay all your credentials out there and offer all kinds of financial whatnot from the get-go – come on, dude doesn’t think men should even buy a female stranger a drink and yet women should offer their heart, “all of it”, in hopes of getting guys to reciprocate?
“even if he wants for all the world to give it.”
That’s where incompatible objectives come in. Maybe he (not just Maeby’s guy but any guy, players included because players are people too) just doesn’t want to give his heart and can not be compelled to. There’s a fact that doesn’t see the light of day often enough around here which is that there is no magic trick that will make people do what you want them to do or feel what you want them to feel. Not women at the bar – even drunk, ugly, accessable women, and certainly not men who make a passtime of being unattainable.
This is why real inner confidence is as important in a woman showing her heart as it is in a man approaching women. After that, it’s just a matter of knowing when to cut your losses.
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Circumcision reduces sensation when done later in life, but if done early enough the body rewires itself so that what is left receives as much sensation as if it was never circumcised.
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“Apparently because of the prevalence of male circumcision, the glans of most American men today have lost a great deal of sensitivity (and lubrication) and thus these men habitually pursue more vigorous or ‘exotic’ forms of sexual stimulation!”
Fan of the uncut though I am, I’d say men have been circumsized since the Bible and ‘exotic’ sex is most stimulating to the brain of the practitioner, not necessarily the penis. The uncut can be some nasty fuckers too. As a rule. (I’m tempted to say Holla!)
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That’s one reason why, even if they don’t have as much raw sex appeal as somewhat older girls, girls in their late teens are so much more refreshing to be around — they don’t play games nearly as much (even the really smart ones), so you don’t have to suit up for battle so often.
Mystery himself says that the basis for his Attraction gambits is that a good-looking 20-something has been hit on 10,000 or more times. Not to mention that she’s had some bad experiences with guys and is starting to become a bit jaded about men’s motives.
True. Girls in their late teens/very early twenties are very approachable.
This also applies to cute girls in their early to mid twenties who don’t go out to clubs etc. If a girl has had a sheltered life or is introverted you should use “game” very lightly, as they will often significantly underestimate their looks.
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@Thursday, noooo… haha nice try tho….. the BRAIN may rewire itself to think it’s getting full pleasure, but an intact penis has 2-3 times(!!) more skin than a cut one, so sorry, those 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings are gone for good!
The foreskin is a moving part of the penis with the ability to lubricate and stimulate the vagina (and give pleasure to both partners) in ways that are not fully understood, you cant “rewire” that
If I were a man, I’d want my foreskin in tact, look what it does!! http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm
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Why not simply drop women who game-counter-game as not being productive for either of you?
If you cannot truly be yourself with a woman, why are you with her in the first place, would be my question? I don’t see that either Neil Strauss or Mystery have a great deal of happiness with the women they are with, constantly gaming.
Why not simply optimize your search for a woman you can love, and stick with her?
I also think that the closing down of emotional openness, and suspicion and gamesmanship among women in their twenties and thirties has a lot to do with the sexual segregation, and differing maturity levels among young men and women. Young women zoom in on the more socially skilled men, assume that is the total universe of men. The less socially skilled, when they finally mature and become successful, assume that constant game is required, even if women have by that time changed their views and want a more naturalistic, open, game-less man.
Sex is certainly important in a relationship, but so too is emotional openness, support, companionship in a mutual manner. Women in their thirties often have huge frustrations because they have to settle “downwards” for men they never would have considered years ago, because it’s not just their aging but rather emotional changes that make them less attractive. For a man with lesser “game” and skills, with his own emotionally pressured life, pr0n is a proven substitute for physical sex if the woman is closed off, suspicious from past hurts, often interrogating.
From an evolutionary biology standpoint, I think the difference, fairly profound, in how humans mate vs. other primates, shows the importance in creating through hormones, pheromones, intimate eye contact, in the “old classic” the chemical/emotional/physical bonds needed for not just “passion” but rather lifetime companionate love. Humans are incredibly complex, incredibly adaptable, and incredibly emotionally charged mammals, but it comes at a price of really needing lifetime companionate love. It’s no accident that humans when isolated a long time default to companionate love and will do awful, horrible things when that companionate love is threatened. The Bounty Mutineers slaughtered each other over jealousy regarding the women they brought with them from Tahiti. Bligh of course had a long, distinguished career and died happily married.
I think the pr0n derived fads for alternatives to the “old classic” will probably suffer the same fate as Fletcher Christian.
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“male circumcision is just a way for jewish doctors to make money. The foreskin is a protective membrane”
yo Gannon. check it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/background_briefings/aids/434880.stm
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Clio,
I definitely prefer old fashioned intercourse, being a traditional kind of guy myself. However, I prefer the term “fucking”. Intercourse is too intellectual so lets use a more down to earth and appropriate term. “Fucking” conveys the passion, vigor, lust, unbridled pleasures and delights of being with a woman. I am definitely not lazy when it comes to fucking also, I like it to make it last as long as possible and work up a good sweat. I do however like to pleasure a woman beforehand, and even after, with a nice appetizer (or desert) of unlimited oral sex. I am generous, and love to give, for as long as she likes. And you seem like the type of woman who can appreciate all these finer passions and pleasures of life.
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Agnostic said (and it could’ve been Gannon) “young girls [in eastern Europe] fall in love so easily and incurably that it’ll seem like a different planet from a “see and be seen” bar in DC.”
Amen to that. Been there, been fallen in love with. Bars are lousy places to meet girls.
Jim Rockford said: “Why not simply optimize your search for a woman you can love, and stick with her?”
Amen to that as well.
Conclusion: get ’em while they’re young, marry, and skip the gamesmanship.
BTW, I’m surprised no one has commented on the photo (looks like something from rotten.com). Roissy, is that the aftermath of an actual abdominal explosion? Or a shotgun blast, or what? Ewwwwww!
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As for anal, I suspect the main fascination is because it is in very short supply. Or some sort of pushing the envelope.
I suspect that many of the men who enjoy doing anal on a woman fantasize about being on the other side of the equation, as it were.
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Hey Gannon,
If you’re still reading this thread, how was your trip to Massachusetts?
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thanks Peter for believing that I’m so cunning.
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Sweet teen site you guys got going here. Say, where’s the site for adults who don’t need bullshit mind games?
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Oh yeah, for the…ahem…”women” who buy into and agree this crap. I’m at a loss for words.
#16 gets it.
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37 “BTW, I’m surprised no one has commented on the photo (looks like something from rotten.com). Roissy, is that the aftermath of an actual abdominal explosion? Or a shotgun blast, or what? Ewwwwww!”
Looks like spontaneous human combustion.
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@41, 42
Dizzy’s BFF much?
Were you tipped off to this site by her?
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If you cannot truly be yourself with a woman, why are you with her in the first place, would be my question?
exactly. Well put. Casual sex gets old, most people eventually seek love — which by necessity includes a certain emotional vulnerability.
Racer X @ 37: go for it! Clio will be unable to resist! My only question is: why didn’t you include your email, so she can contact you privately and blushingly admit she’s been fantasizing about your oral prowess? I don’t think she’ll be willing to admit publicly, in this comments section, how you’ve awakened her dormant sensual needs….
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Re: the appeal of anal:
There is a difference between murmering assent while staring into someone’s big, blue eyes, and vociferously praising that person’s views as acutely perceptive and indications of Socratic genius, then, suddenly, abandoning those exact views due to an ordinary falling out.
A scorned woman will do this with other aspects of the man’s behavior of course, which is possibly why so many men like to talk women into having anal sex – it’s one of the few sexual fetishes most women will be reluctant to gossip about to their friends (I personally find the practice obscenely disgusting), as there isn’t very much dignity that can be retained while declaring, “I’ve been fucked up the butt.”
http://www.udolpho.com/weblog/?id=01019&title=Insights-Into-the-Female-Mind-Lesson-1
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> I suspect that many of the men who enjoy doing anal on a woman fantasize about being on the other side of the equation, as it were.
There may be that. I don’t think if it means they are closetted gays though. I’ve occasionally met guys who say they might sleep with guys (one actually did, but was pretty drugged up from my recollection) but are not attracted to the male physique which does not make them gay (or even properly bi) in my view.
I don’t really care what people do to each other in consentual encounters but the scat stuff I truly cannot understand. Not the giving and much less the receiving end.
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> it’s one of the few sexual fetishes most women will be reluctant to gossip about to their friends (I personally find the practice obscenely disgusting), as there isn’t very much dignity that can be retained while declaring, “I’ve been fucked up the butt.”
Bullshit^2. Then by definition most openly gay guys would have no dignity.
Besides I have met girls who would declare it, didn’t seem to matter to them very much. I have yet to meet one who would declare to be into it, though.
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Clio,
Vaginal missionary ALL THE WAY! There’s nothing hotter than connecting with a woman in the most intimate way. Oral is good, but conjures up old images of teenage girls I’ve known with no control of their gag reflexes, so, not so much fun. Anal, well… I’m not a closet case, so I’ll pass…
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What Johnson (heh) said.
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there isn’t very much dignity that can be retained while declaring, “I’ve been fucked up the butt.”
Men are forever fantasizing that they can capture or own or dominate a woman by getting them to do some particularly undignified sexual practice. Generally not true. A woman will enthusiastically beg for it up the butt and the next day be yelling at you about some obscure way you’ve offended her. In kink terms, most women are bottoms in the bedroom but not submissive outside of it.
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I think traditional missionary is the way to go when your with someone you care very deeply for who you want to experience sex face to face. And I don’t mean in a “make love” sort of way, but it just feels amazing to fuck somebody you love and be interwined together.
The other, more kinky ways, manufacture excitement and thrill through novelty or fun. IMO, it’s an attempt, often successful, to replicate the deep bond that missionary can provide if your on the same emotional wave length.
Eitherway, sometimes you just need to bend a girl over, grab her hair, and go to town.
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Clio, my girlfriend and I prefer doggie when she wants to be pounded like Jerry Quarry or cowgirl when she feels the need to control the pace. Neither of these qualify as something out of the ordinary in my book. Things DO usually start out with good old missionary, however. Does caring about my girl’s orgasm make me beta?
Also, the Catholic girl thing is absolutely true, which is why I stuck to Jewish girls in school.
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28 Alex:
“Wouldn’t the essence of alpha be to simply do whatever you’re naturally inclined to do, expressing yourself freely, and letting the cards fall as they may?”
THANK YOU.
I never was good at doing that “mating dance” stuff. i have to speak my mind at all times. if a lady i just met cancels our date or doesnt return a phone call, i WILL let my dissapointment be known. a true beta would just blindly go along with whatever’s going on. seems to me an alpha would call a spade a spade and say “fuck this! that aint right!”
this is what people tend to forget:
acting like a true alpha player really works the best AFTER YOU’VE GOTTEN THE GIRL. BUT…when youre still trying to line up a simple date, or if it’s the first go-round, doing “the dance’ can blow up in your face. i just do whatever the hell i am thinking, and dont hold back at all. i dont want to sit around later, feeling all bitter over something i should have said or did. i had one guy say i was “getting in touch with my inner female” by acting like i give a damn, but hey, somebodys got to make the first move. thats my “game’ right there
i say, if its for me, GIVE IT TO ME. and later for doing “the dance.” this isnt “soul train.”
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How is this even a conversation?
If you are constantly gaming a girl, long after the relationship has begun and been consummated, to the point that it’s irritating or unpleasant, why are you with her?
Isn’t that why you break up with somebody?
Game has it’s uses, to allow you to sleep with hot girls and build the inner and outer confidence necessary to meet new, attractive people, but if the personalities don’t match in the long term, why continue the relationship?
Roissy makes some strong points about the dangers of overgaming.
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Literally, you could put a feeding tube in a guy’s mouth, a drainage tube up his anus…
You wouldn’t believe how many men disapprove of having an elongated object inserted up their ass. Never tried to use a drainage pipe on them, but I suppose the reaction would be the same.
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What do ya think about this…
http://www.outofyourleaguegirl.com
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#58..
She looks like one of those girls who will launch into a monologue while giving you a half-assed BJ.
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Looks up and reads Racer X comment# 37.
😯
:blush:
🙂
I know I am a little late but…
Do you like chocolate?
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I don’t get it… why is relationship the goal here? The whole purpose of game is to get laid. If you have enough game you can have multiple fuck buddies without emotional abuse, in which case you will have a healthier lifestyle. Roissy you are contradicting yourself when you say you are against marriage but you are for “relationships.” You should check out some Leyksis 101 by Tom Leyksis. Now he is a true player.
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i hat the games
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