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Chateau Heartiste

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Supermodels Are Not Hot

September 29, 2008 by CH

At least, not the ones who work as fashion models on the runways of Paris and New York. Check out the weird combination of masculine jawline, flairing nostrils (the better to snort four lines at once), and uberfeminine saucer plate eyes on this chick, model Masha Tyelna.

if she made a baby with billy joel how big would its eyes be?

if she made a baby with billy joel how big would its eyes be?

Clearly, the gay guys who run the fashion world are choosing curveless, geometrically angular androgynoids to model their clothes. So the next time some dude brags that he’s dating a supermodel ask him which industry — Victoria’s Secret? Playboy? SI Swimsuit Issue? He’s banging a winner — those kinds of models are chosen for their direct appeal to men or their ability to model very feminine clothing (i.e., lingerie). Milan runway? He’s banging a prepubescent boy.

I don’t want to mislead the typical woman into thinking that she’s hotter than catwalk models. She is not. The haute couture model, despite her strange appearance, is still hotter than 80% of all women, given that most American women are plain-looking at best and ugly fatties at worst. Quite simply, the obesity epidemic is skewing the 1 – 10 looks scale upwards, so that the 7 in the above photo can afford to get paid like a 10. But compared to the cute hipster chicks and WASPy blonde darlings I see daily, Masha would get lost in the shuffle. I saw at least ten girls hotter than her in one hour this past Saturday night. Of course, I’d never tell them that. Their heads are already big enough.

I once got into an argument with Clio that makeup can, at best, raise a woman’s looks score by one point max, and that a woman’s true score can’t stay hidden from a man for longer than a few dates or one night together. The makeup-less cold hard light of morning after analysis reveals all.

I based my judgment of the value of makeup in boosting a woman’s looks on personal experience. I have rarely been with a woman who gained more than one point by makeup. Part of this reason is that having been with enough women, I can more accurately assess when makeup is hiding something. Another part of the reason is that women consistently overestimate how much makeup can help them. Call it the wishful thinking syndrome.

But after seeing before and after photos of runway models like Masha, I have to make an exception. Makeup goes a long way to feminizing the looks of odd-looking, yet not necessarily unattractive, androgynous girls like her chosen for their peculiarly striking looks. For instance, Gisele Bundchen looks like an 8 without makeup and hits 10 with it.

In the interest of clearing the confusion on the matter of makeup, here is a handy chart I’ve devised (it’s been a while since I’ve done a handy chart):

Looks Rating                Makeup Boost by Points
0                                   0
1                                   0
2                                   0
3                                   0.5
4                                   0.5
5                                   1
6                                   1
7                                   1.5
8                                   1
9                                   0.5
10                                 0

Conclusion: Ugly women have no use for makeup; theirs is a lost cause. If anything, makeup can actually draw more attention to their unfortunate condition. Magnificent ugliness radiates out from the face like blast of cosmic rays, overwhelming even the best makeup applications.

Around 3 and 4, where ugliness shifts into mere unattractiveness, makeup provides a minor improvement. For the girl, it could mean the difference between being ignored and savoring the glorious experience of getting pumped and dumped by a beta.

Makeup really hits on all cylinders for semi-attractive girls who aren’t quite in the running for genuine hotness. The 5s and 6s will see a solid 1 point boost. The biggest effects are on the 7s — those girls who are attractive enough for girlfriend material but have one or two facial flaws that keep them out of the “Props, man, you’re dating a hot chick!” category. Interestingly, when you move up the ladder to 8s and 9s, the trend begins to reverse and you don’t see the same major boost from makeup. By the time you are at a bonafide 10, makeup can add nothing to her already perfect beauty, and oftentimes will detract from it.

The catwalk models are an exception to the above chart. As far as I can tell, they receive a 2 to 3 point boost from makeup. Their angular boyish faces respond well to the softening effects of makeup.

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Posted in Fashion, Girls, Hungry Hungry Hippos, Vanity | 200 Comments

200 Responses

  1. on September 29, 2008 at 4:43 pm Hope

    Just read this article today:

    “Judgments of attractiveness (of ourselves and of others) depend on the situation in which we find ourselves. For example, a woman of average attractiveness seems a lot less attractive than she actually is if a viewer has first seen a highly attractive woman. If a man is talking to a beautiful female at a cocktail party and is then joined by a less attractive one, the second woman will seem relatively unattractive.”

    LikeLiked by 1 person


  2. on September 29, 2008 at 4:46 pm Peter

    Another thing is that too much makeup can detract from any woman’s looks.

    Agreed, that pictured supermodel is ghastly.

    LikeLike


  3. on September 29, 2008 at 4:55 pm Virgle Kent

    There’s something to be said about make up put on my the woman herself (most women in general) and the make up put on by a professional makeup artist for the supermodel/ tv actress blah blah blah

    LikeLike


  4. on September 29, 2008 at 4:59 pm freak show

    In my case, I will be forever thankful for concealer as it covers over a few unfortunate acne scars.

    google artefill

    LikeLike


  5. on September 29, 2008 at 5:08 pm Kick a Bitch

    I’d still fuck her…

    LikeLike


  6. on September 29, 2008 at 5:11 pm d

    2 notes:

    1) Runway models have the world’s best makeup artists. even a very good amateur is unlikely to have the same repertoire.

    2) runway models are chosen as much for their bodies as for their faces. so a 6-foot-tall, very skinny 7.5 is much more valuable, in general, than a legit 10 with curves.

    LikeLike


  7. on September 29, 2008 at 5:16 pm Hope

    Runway models never seem to smile in their photos. They always look so gloomy, with either a frowning stare or a blank expression. Hollywood actresses, by contrast, are often seen either openly smiling or have a hint of smile in their photos. Masha Tyelna looks much better here:

    LikeLike


  8. on September 29, 2008 at 5:17 pm PA

    Wow, a smile goes a long way!

    LikeLike


  9. on September 29, 2008 at 5:22 pm freak show

    Masha Tyelna looks much better

    her nose is still unacceptable

    LikeLike


  10. on September 29, 2008 at 5:22 pm Lemmonex

    freak show, that stuff is for wrinkles…I fortunately do not have any yet, though I sure as fuck will being botoxing myself to hell once they appear.

    Masha looks like a member of the underworld…straight up.

    LikeLike


  11. on September 29, 2008 at 5:25 pm Hope

    Wow, a smile goes a long way!

    Yes it does. This effect is most pronounced in photographs, because it is a moment frozen in time, whereas in moving film or in person the subtle changes in a person’s eyes or breathing distract the viewer, and there is more to see so to speak. Personally, in my own photos I look like crap when I don’t smile, but actually cute when I do. There are some women who look heart-wrenchingly beautiful when photographed frowning or expressionless, but they are rare and far in between.

    LikeLike


  12. on September 29, 2008 at 5:26 pm freak show

    freak show, that stuff is for wrinkles…

    sweetie, that stuff is for a lot of things, including acne scars. it can deal with potmarks. ask a dermatologist. it can easily solve your problems with scarring, but it’s expensive.

    LikeLike


  13. on September 29, 2008 at 5:27 pm Hope

    her nose is still unacceptable

    Oh, and noses look much more noticeable in photos (and sometimes film) than in person. A large nose will dominate a photo, but in normal settings it is barely noticeable. This is why so many people in Hollywood get the nose job.

    LikeLike


  14. on September 29, 2008 at 5:27 pm Lemmonex

    Sweetie, a POCKmark is different than a scar.

    LikeLike


  15. on September 29, 2008 at 5:30 pm Thursday

    1. I think I have said before here that makeup can sometimes boost a girl 2 points. Sometimes.

    2. We agree that girls in the middle who get the most out of makeup. However, it is 5s and 6s receive the most. Going from a 5 to a 6.5 means going from dumpster dive to potential greater Beta GF. Going from a 6 to a 7 means going from being a Beta GF to potential serious relationship with an Alpha. For most high quality men the minimum attractiveness threshold is a 7, so getting over that hump from 6 to 7 is crucial.

    3. The true test of prettiness is jeans, t-shirt, no make up, and hair pulled back in a pony tail. The true 10s shine brightest here.

    4. Make-up on a 9 or 10 will often actually pull a girl down. The difference between an 8 and true hotness is in the details and make-up on a 9 can often obscure those details. On a 10, a make-up artist has to be incredibly skilled to NOT obscure them.

    LikeLike


  16. on September 29, 2008 at 5:35 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I actually think that modelling is the one entertainment industry where the higher the person is ranked, the worse they look. I find the bottom feeder C and D-list models littering the streets of NY and LA to be almost universally hotter than the A-listers. Plus their self-esteem is way lower, making them much more manageable.

    LikeLike


  17. on September 29, 2008 at 5:39 pm PA

    For most high quality men the minimum attractiveness threshold is a 7, so getting over that hump from 6 to 7 is crucial.

    I don’t disagree, but as a side-note, how do you explain super-alphas of their day, John Lennon and Paul McCartney, marry Yoko and Linda?

    Not that John Lennon was a high quality man by any stretch of the imagination, but presumably he had many choices.

    LikeLike


  18. on September 29, 2008 at 5:40 pm freak show

    lemmonex, you really seem to disbelieve me for some unknown reason:
    http://www.yourplasticsurgeryguide.com/injectables-and-fillers/artecoll.htm

    filling a pockmark is the same as a bigger acne scar. i guess if your acne scars are the non- depressed type that might be different, but most acne scars are (to varying degrees) depressed; artefill (artecoll) handles that, but it’s expensive.

    LikeLike


  19. on September 29, 2008 at 5:41 pm The G Manifesto

    “Supermodels Are Not Hot – At least, not the ones who work as fashion models on the runways of Paris and New York.”

    I have had plenty of great nights with Models in Milan, Barcelona, Paris and NYC. And I am always happy to share the same alarm clock as them. Generalizing just shows inexperience.

    Masha Tyelna has more of an “art house” appeal than a Hollywood Blockbuster.

    Not everyones taste. (Nor Mine).

    – MPM

    LikeLike


  20. on September 29, 2008 at 5:42 pm Lemmonex

    Mine are not depressed. I actually know what my face looks like. Thanks for your concern.

    LikeLike


  21. on September 29, 2008 at 5:42 pm Usually Lurking

    There is a good website that documents this topic: www[dot]FeminineBeauty[dot]info.

    LikeLike


  22. on September 29, 2008 at 5:47 pm Peter

    Lost in all this discussion is the fact that models are hired for a single, specific purpose – to display clothing in the best way possible. They are not hired to appear in beauty pageants. Stunningly beautiful women might take attention away from the clothing and for that reason would not be considered desirable.

    LikeLike


  23. on September 29, 2008 at 5:49 pm anony

    Here’s how I see it:

    __age__ _benefit of makeup___

    10-25……………0
    25-30…………….0.5
    30-40……………1
    40-55……………2
    55-70……………1
    70+ ……………..0.5

    LikeLike


  24. on September 29, 2008 at 5:50 pm johnny five

    dude, wow. masha tyelna is so ugly that i almost acted like a supermodel myself* while looking at her. there’s no way that a fully straight, red-blooded, testosterone-addled man would rank her above a three.

    and it’s not just that photo, either; i was masochistic enough to do a google image search.
    sweet god, it’s as though the aliens from ‘communion’ are real. i’m going to have nightmares tonight.

    —

    *i.e., lost my lunch.

    LikeLike


  25. on September 29, 2008 at 5:53 pm Gannon

    Anony is right, teen girls barely benefit from makeup, unless they are covering up pimples or acne.

    LikeLike


  26. on September 29, 2008 at 5:58 pm Thursday

    I have linked to this before in a different post, but here is a great site with comparisons of models with and without make up:
    http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/f47/francois-nars-make-up-your-mind-647.html
    It also shows just how unattractive many high fashion models are.

    Adriana Lima is the ultimate test case for how make up can actually make a 10 look worse. The make up in the picture at the above link obscures the adorable little curves on her nose and cheeks. Her eyes pop out a little bit more when she is made up, but overall she looks better without. Maggie Rizer, another favourite of mine, also looks better au natural.

    The only truly hot girl in this set who improves with make up is Aurelie Claudel and even there there are both gains and losses.

    LikeLike


  27. on September 29, 2008 at 6:00 pm J

    There’s no way Gisele Bundchen is an 8. She’s hideous. Her fame is all about Photoshop.

    LikeLiked by 1 person


  28. on September 29, 2008 at 6:12 pm DF

    Runway work is really about presence and the ability to look like a living clothes hangar for a designer’s shit. They are not hired for their beauty. Print models are different from runway but the industry is still very fickle, no surprise there. Nevertheless, make up doesn’t do much but its a business that needs to sell that idea and there is no shortage of women that need to believe that.

    LikeLike


  29. on September 29, 2008 at 6:13 pm Thursday

    I don’t disagree, but as a side-note, how do you explain super-alphas of their day, John Lennon and Paul McCartney, marry Yoko and Linda?

    John was seriously fucked up and Linda was a 7 who Paul just clicked with (once married they almost never spent even one night apart).

    LikeLike


  30. on September 29, 2008 at 6:17 pm PA

    once married they almost never spent even one night apart

    That’s the “Rock & Roll History” impression I had.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, a woman’s looks are not that important for long-term happiness, as long as they are above the man’s attractiveness threshold.

    LikeLike


  31. on September 29, 2008 at 6:26 pm Virgle Kent

    J,

    That was the “worst” picture you could find of Gisele? Ha ha ha, you’re going to have to come way harder than that to make your point

    LikeLike


  32. on September 29, 2008 at 6:28 pm The G Manifesto

    “Playboy? He’s banging a winner”

    Playboy models are very often time very plain looking in real life. Or ordinary. Like a girl from your local Hooters.

    And I have done an unofficial case study. Hooters girls are a incubator of Playboy Models.

    But I am always happy to share the same alarm clock as them.

    – MPM

    LikeLike


  33. on September 29, 2008 at 6:33 pm Large Hadron Collider

    Processes that enhance beauty like freezing warts waste liquid nitrogen.

    LikeLike


  34. on September 29, 2008 at 6:35 pm 6 Martini Lunch

    “I don’t disagree, but as a side-note, how do you explain super-alphas of their day, John Lennon and Paul McCartney, marry Yoko and Linda?”

    No doubt some sort of mental problem. Seriously.

    LikeLike


  35. on September 29, 2008 at 6:36 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I don;t think Gisele is hideous but she is terribly overrated, especially for a Brazilian. I regularly meet run of the mill Brazilian tourists that are way hotter than her, it shocks me they scouted talent in that country and that was the best they could come up with

    LikeLike


  36. on September 29, 2008 at 6:40 pm Thursday

    This is why Gisele is the top model in the world. Her face isn’t quite perfect, but that is the body to end all bodies.

    LikeLike


  37. on September 29, 2008 at 6:50 pm J

    Virgle Kent, no it’s not her worst picture, it’s just a picture where she looks like herself. She could easily be a man.

    LikeLike


  38. on September 29, 2008 at 6:52 pm DF

    Gisele does not and should not represent the apex of the Brazilian talent pool. Besides, Adriana Lima, Ana Beatriz Barros, and Alessandra Ambrosio are more attractive than her anyway. Few women can do print and runway because of the height requirement for runway modeling. It just so happens that these VS models can.

    There are plenty of women that are hotter than most runway models, they just may not be as tall and I don’t know many guys with a specific height requirement.

    LikeLike


  39. on September 29, 2008 at 7:19 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I’m sorry, even if you take body into account I still think Gisele is way overrated. I won’t go as far as some to say she’s unattractive, and it is a good body, but still, I think she’s overrated. To me Tom Brady could land WAY better in the looks department.

    LikeLike


  40. on September 29, 2008 at 7:23 pm Fabian

    That model looks like….an alien.

    LikeLike


  41. on September 29, 2008 at 7:26 pm Anonymous

    “”Men do not see right through makeup to facial bone structure”

    “A lot of men do not. Some people actually think that someone like Ann Coulter is hot, when all she is is a thin blond with flowing blond tresses. For some men such an approximation of beauty is enough, and, therefore, crude make-up can be very effective in attracting certain men. But they will tend to be rather crude men.”

    In my observation, the kind of woman most likely to get an undeserved “hot” label is the women who is heavily made-up in the “Cosmo girl” way (as opposed to a high fashion way), with either really big or really long/straight hair, preferably blonde, and a big bosom. If such a woman is also relatively young (under 30), she’s almost certain to soak up most of the male attention in a bar, even if there are many women there with better bone structure and better-proportioned figures. That’s esp. true in blue-collar bars as opposed to trendy hipster places.

    Clio

    LikeLike


  42. on September 29, 2008 at 7:33 pm whiskey

    What does the market say about attractive women?

    It seems like there are several tiers of “types” of women that men find attractive.

    There are the Playboy/SI Swimsuit models, very curvy and attractive, like as noted Giselle Bundchen and the like.

    There are various actresses, what’s odd is that the “girl next door” gals seem to do “more” or are rated higher, higher demand for them by guys than the knockout-swimsuit models above. Examples would be Kari Byron from Mythbusters, Alyson Hannigan, Michelle Trachtenberg, etc.

    Then there are the various actresses like Megan Fox, Angelina Jolie, Jessica Alba, Anne Hathaway, and Scarlett Johansson. Who are often pushed by tabloids and such, often (in the case of Hathaway or Fox, with self-exposing tabloid confessions about personal sexual habits — wont’s say more to get past content filter). These actresses seem tabloid fodder, men sorta like them but less (IMHO, because of image, “skanky” perceptions etc)

    It’s funny, google searches and rankings of actresses like Hannigan and Trachtenberg, the modern “girl next door” out-do more classical “beauties” such as Alba, Jolie, Fox, etc.

    I do think that our hyper-sexual culture has put a premium on male fantasies for the “nice-geek-girl next door” who would in fantasy terms, not have a lot of partners.

    It certainly seems in the fantasy marketplace that the “girl next door” is more desired by the aggregate of men than the “sexy” super-model or “hot” actress/starlet with a “slutty” image.

    On the lowest end of the scale, look at Paris Hilton, and men’s reaction to her. I think behavioral cues matter as much as physical beauty once a certain “floor” has been reached.

    LikeLike


  43. on September 29, 2008 at 7:39 pm dougjnn

    The look here in this particular pic, aside from meeting the basic and easy criteria of tall, youngish and skinny, seem clearly to be chosen with that singular desiderata that so animates modern art generally in it’s various forms.

    She looks controversial, or “interesting”. There’s something to talk about, re: her. She’s “not just another boringly beautiful girl”. Not just “same old same old”.

    Instead she embodies a single abstract idea or two. Like much of modern art. I.e. it’s a critics thing. She’s different from her predecessors in these easily written up — critiqued — ways.

    Models for fashion critics to write about. Like art for art critics to write about.

    Ah our current world. Such a reliable producer of artistic dreck promoted by critics as the height of au current high art.

    LikeLike


  44. on September 29, 2008 at 7:40 pm Thursday

    In my observation, the kind of woman most likely to get an undeserved “hot” label is the women who is heavily made-up in the “Cosmo girl” way (as opposed to a high fashion way), with either really big or really long/straight hair, preferably blonde, and a big bosom.

    I agree with you completely on this, Clio. Coulter was someone I thought everyone might know. The kind of girls you describe are rarely the kind that get much media attention, though Pamela Anderson might qualify.

    LikeLike


  45. on September 29, 2008 at 7:43 pm dougjnn

    Fabien —

    That model looks like….an alien.

    That reaction, and one’s like it, are PRECISELY what I was talking about.

    That is exactly the sort of abstract concept reaction that you can talk about, that the fashion critic sensitive promoters of this particular high fashion model had in mind.

    Living in their frontal lobes much, are they?

    LikeLike


  46. on September 29, 2008 at 7:52 pm Pupu

    Clio 47,

    Pupu agrees with your assessment except that brunettes seem to be more desirable these days.
    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/07/maxims-audience-prefers-brunettes.php

    In terms of preferred height, the female sex symbols tend to be only somewhat (about 1.5 inch) taller than average.
    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/female-sex-symbols-somewhat-taller-than.php

    The supermodels may be too tall for most men’s taste.

    LikeLike


  47. on September 29, 2008 at 7:59 pm Thursday

    men are highly attuned by the forces of evolution to detect the tiniest differences in female facial morphology that separate genuine beauty from the less attractive amongst a crowd of humanity.

    I have to agree more with Clio on this one. As in all things, some men are easier to fool than others.

    And some men just have crude taste in women, just as some people prefer macs and cheese to filet mignon.

    LikeLike


  48. on September 29, 2008 at 8:26 pm Peter

    And some men just have crude taste in women

    We all know what my taste in women involves.

    LikeLike


  49. on September 29, 2008 at 8:27 pm Thursday

    It’s funny, google searches and rankings of actresses like Hannigan and Trachtenberg, the modern “girl next door” out-do more classical “beauties” such as Alba, Jolie, Fox, etc.

    Most men know in their heart of hearts that they have more of a shot at getting a cute but not spectacular girl like Alyson Hannigan than the likes of Megan Fox. Fox and her ilk are associated in the minds of most men with crushing rejection, so google rankings like this are more a sign of male weakness than of which girl actually is more attractive.

    It’s a bit sad that most guys are too afraid of girls like Fox to even google them.

    LikeLike


  50. on September 29, 2008 at 8:39 pm dougjnn

    Pupu —

    The supermodels may be too tall for most men’s taste.

    There is the expedient of actually asking men outside the fashion industry. If you do you’ll hear them tell you that super models can be hot, but tend to be 1) too skinny; 2) not curvy enough (tits too small, asses too, often hips aren’t wide enough); 3) sometimes too weird looking (see my first comment above re: art critics in the fashion world).

    LikeLike


  51. on September 29, 2008 at 8:42 pm dougjnn

    Peter 56 —

    We all know what my taste in women involves.

    A chu chu chia pet.

    In the form of an early caveman squat fertility figurine. With a verdant chia growth encouraged in a certain locale.

    LikeLike


  52. on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 pm Thursday

    She could go for a raven haired Betty Paige look and get just as much attention, or anyway damn close.

    Blonde hair tends to make pretty but not spectacular girls look better. Think Marilyn Monroe, Madonna, Renee Zellweger, Kirsten Dunst, Shakira. So the girls Clio is talking about do overwhelmingly tend to be blonde.

    Truly great beauties, on the other hand, tend to be dark haired. Think Ava Gardner, Audrey Hepburn, Elizabeth Taylor, Catherine Zeta Jones, Jessica Alba, Megan Fox, Adriana Lima, though there are exceptions like Greta Garbo and Ingrid Bergman.

    LikeLike


  53. on September 29, 2008 at 4:54 pm Kassyk

    Ah, you brought me out for this one.

    I have 4 best friends in a crew of roughly nine girls that are universal 9s. And about 3 of the other girls in the group are universal 8s. (By universal I mean any human looking at them would declare beauty).

    I do not mean by just my standards, I mean by all the men and women I have seen discuss their beauty often for over a decade. Its striking even more so because they are all so close so walking around together its interesting.

    The 3 that are 8s I have seen look drop dead gorgeous in great makeup and hair–definitely to a 9 easy.

    But the other 4 of them that are 9s…they only look a teensy bit different with makeup. A bit better but no real difference, just some enhancement.

    You are right. When women are naturally beautiful–universally or with quirks–makeup can enhance a bit but does not dramatically affect beauty.

    LikeLike


  54. on September 29, 2008 at 4:58 pm Lemmonex

    I am with you on this one. The adro looks are pushed by gay men and, well, then it all makes sense.

    As far as make up goes, I agree–it can maybe move a woman up one point. If a girl is genuinely pretty, it can help by accentuating a good feature (some eyeliner around already big eyes, for example). In my case, I will be forever thankful for concealer as it covers over a few unfortunate acne scars. But no make up in the world is going to make me look like Monica Belucci, sadly.

    LikeLike


  55. on September 29, 2008 at 5:00 pm Anonymous

    Hey, my original discussions about makeup included the possibility that bad makeup can ruin a woman’s looks.

    I don’t know whether it’s worth it to go over this again, but I’m going to try: there are many pretty women in the world. There are perhaps rather more of them than even you know. Their looks are often concealed behind bad hair, bad clothes, and – in some cases – bad makeup. In other cases, a very pretty woman whose looks are a little bland (soft light brown hair, pale blue eyes) and who fades into invisibility without makeup, can be brought forward into beauty with it. The confidence that comes with a little polish can also make a pretty-but-invisible woman blaze out into beauty, though not perhaps the “super 10” status you covet in women.

    That was the main point of my comments about the effects of makeup.

    But don’t you think that after a woman reaches a certain level of physical beauty, some of the disagreement about her “rank” (if you insist on ranking) on the scale are going to be arguments about personal taste? (Haha you knew I’d bring that in again.) David Alexander mooning over Pam-Anderson-at-25; he’s getting excited over Rachel Weisz – that sort of thing? Each of you looking at the other’s choice and saying “naah, that’s only an eight”?

    clio

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  56. on September 29, 2008 at 9:01 pm Brandy

    Their angular boyish faces respond well to the softening effects of makeup.

    I didn’t bother to read what others have said, but there is a scientific explaination for this:

    “(Nov 2005) Feminine beauty, the subject of philosophical and artistic musings for millennia, can be predicted by something as basic as hormones – in women, but not men. Researchers at the University of St Andrews in Fife, UK, have found that women’s facial attractiveness is directly related to their oestrogen levels.

    Miriam Law Smith and colleagues photographed 59 women, aged between 18 and 25, every week for six weeks. On each occasion, they provided a urine sample for hormone analysis and gave information on where they were in their menstrual cycle. None of the women wore make-up, nor were they taking the contraceptive pill.

    The researchers then selected the photograph of each woman that had been taken at the time of her highest urine-oestrogen level. As expected, this correlated to the point of ovulation in the women’s menstrual cycles. These photographs were rated by 14 men and 15 women, also aged 18 to 25, for attractiveness, health and femininity.

    The group also rated two composite face images. One composite was an amalgamation of the 10 women with the lowest peak-oestrogen levels, while the other image was a combination of the 10 women with the highest levels (see image).

    Facial formation
    “There was a very strong and direct correlation between the level of each woman’s oestrogen and how attractive, healthy and feminine they were found to be, showing that fertility is related to attractiveness,” Law Smith told New Scientist. The faces considered most healthy and feminine were also deemed the most attractive.

    “It is likely that those women with higher hormone levels also had increased levels of oestrogen during puberty – the time when the hormone has a crucial role in determining facial appearance,” she suggests.

    The amount of oestrogen produced by a person’s body during the average seven-year-long puberty is largely determined by heredity. The hormone has lasting effects on bone growth and tissue formation as well as the skin’s appearance, Law Smith explains.

    So should 13-year-old girls be given doses of oestrogen in the hope that they will grow into more beautiful women? “Absolutely not,” Law Smith says. “It certainly may make them more attractive, but who knows what other effects the hormone may have?”

    Of course there may be an easier way – faking it. A further study by Law Smith’s group found that when women wore make-up the correlation between perceived attraction and oestrogen levels was completely masked, because make-up improved appearance.”

    Link:
    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8251

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  57. on September 29, 2008 at 5:05 pm freak show

    The confidence that comes with a little polish can also make a pretty-but-invisible woman blaze out into beauty, though not perhaps the “super 10″ status you covet in women.

    this is a comforting lie. men see right through makeup to facial bone structure sooner or later, and no, those women never suddenly became beauties to us with makeup. his chart addresses your comment in greater detail.

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  58. on September 29, 2008 at 9:19 pm dougjnn

    To inject a note of real world reality into this sometimes escapist world around here, I’d like to say the following.

    What’s going on in the credit markets today is VERY serious. The drop on Wall Street is so far large but measured. It’s only the tip of the iceberg. It could also snowball.

    The important thing is that the credit markets are truly seizing up. That means deep recession=depression folks. No joke. Very very real. The world still expects this is just a US government hickup and that it won’t last. If that turns out wrong, LOOK OUT.

    The only way of being positive at all is to assume that this is just a temporary impass in Washington and that some credit markets unfreezing package is agreed.

    I’m not weighing in on this particular one, or the great desire of teh public expressed through their representatives in Congress to not bail out the Wall Street fat catters themselves. So far as that can be accomplished and the credit markets unfrozen by injecting government capital = credit essentially, fine.

    But right now we doing financial brinkmanship folks.

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  59. on September 29, 2008 at 9:24 pm Czar

    67 – dougjnn: In case you missed that: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ahwz_k5JvuB8&refer=home

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  60. on September 29, 2008 at 9:28 pm Hope

    if i had a daughter whose estrogen levels were low, i would certainly impress upon her that the slightly elevated risk of side effects is insignificant to the improvement in her life’s prospects she would get from an estrogenic beauty enhancement.

    Terrible idea. Hormonal imbalance in too much estrogen will cause problems. It may in fact be one of the confounding factors in obesity’s rise.

    http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/183

    Estrogen overload seems to be happening quite frequently. A lot of young girls are entering puberty slightly earlier due to the increased levels of estrogen present in the environment.

    “Many scientists believe that earlier puberty is caused, in part, by the widespread exposure to pesticides and other chemicals that have qualities like estrogen. There are a number of studies showing that chemicals that disrupt the endocrine system can affect pubertal development or sexual behavior in animals (Guillette, et al., 1994; Howdeshell, et al., 1999; Yamomoto et al., 1996).”

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  61. on September 29, 2008 at 9:47 pm Thursday

    post-baywatch pamela may not have the exquisite beauty of hepburn but she’s still fuckable. so if one of those blue collar dudes introduced me to pamela i’d take a crack at it.

    Irrelevant. The point is would they take Hepburn over Anderson. Anderson by a mile.

    but we’re only talking about a point up or down, not 5 points in either direction.

    False dichotomy. More like 2 points. 3 if the guy is a particularly dumb lunkhead. You, your friends and the people who hang out at same the bars you do are not necessarily a representive sample of male humanity.

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  62. on September 29, 2008 at 9:47 pm Anonymous

    Thursday and dougjnn,

    I just wanted to clarify something: I wasn’t necessarily speaking of pretty women when I described my blond stereotype. I remember being very puzzled in high school, and later in places like bars, that some blonde women with breasts who struck me as positively horse-faced got more attention than prettier women with a quieter appearance and demeanour. This may have been because the busty queens promised easier sex, but I don’t know.

    As for makeup, I accept that it can only do so much; as I said already, I was speaking of what it can do for pretty women who were “invisible” for one reason or another. I don’t think men are aware of this because these women are, well, invisible to them. I’d also like to point out that probably some of the hottest “10s”, whom you celebrate for their natural beauty, are in fact often wearing makeup when you think they are not. Expertly done cosmetics applied not for drama but for concealment of small flaws can definitely make pretty or beautiful women stand out more than they would otherwise.

    clio

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  63. on September 29, 2008 at 9:56 pm Sara I

    They’re not hot because they’re ill and not in a good way.

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  64. on September 29, 2008 at 9:57 pm Thursday

    Clio:

    I was speaking of what it can do for pretty women who were “invisible” for one reason or another.

    I think what you are saying is that some women with a particularly delicate type of beauty need to use make up to make their sexual signals cruder and more obvious in order to attract the average man. If that is what you are saying, I can go with that, up to a point.

    probably some of the hottest “10s”, whom you celebrate for their natural beauty, are in fact often wearing makeup when you think they are not.

    Did you actually look at the site I linked to above? The photos come from a project where models were photographed both with and without make up. Pay particular attention to Adriana Lima, Maggie Rizer, and Aurelie Claudel in their “without” shots.

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  65. on September 29, 2008 at 5:57 pm Anonymous

    “this is a comforting lie. men see right through makeup to facial bone structure sooner or later, and no, those women never suddenly became beauties to us with makeup. his chart addresses your comment in greater detail.”

    Dear oh dear, I do wish that the men on this site could for once drop the idea that every woman without fail is lying to herself and others all the time in every situation.

    Men do not see right through makeup to facial bone structure; but they may notice good bone structure more when it’s been highlighted by good makeup. If you’d been paying any attention to what I wrote in my comment, you would have noticed that I was not referring to women with bad bone structure being made over by makeup, but to pretty (that is, women with good features) but unnoticeable women, women whose bland natural colouring (combined in many cases with a withdrawn manner) makes them fade into invisibility, who could be brought out into beauty and visibility by a combination of makeup (highlighting her good features and dramatizing her unremarkable colouring), the right clothes, and a bit of confidence from the knowledge that she looks better.

    In my youth (and btw, I was very slender), I was called everything from ugly to beautiful to average – and it all seemed to depend on what I was wearing, how I did my hair, and the preferences of the person doing the labelling. “If you had more chest”, said one male friend to me, “you’d be my ideal woman.”

    That brings me to another point: teenage boys will overlook a great many facial flaws in favour of big breasts, and some of their elders never quite outgrow this attitude. It may be less common than it used to be, though, because there are so many more fat girls than there were when I was a teenager, so the boys’ selection is more limited.

    clio

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  66. on September 29, 2008 at 10:05 pm Kassyk

    Thursday: Off general post topic but just to throw it out there–

    I agree on the brunette thing in general BUT you forgot a great exception of a truly beautiful blonde actress–Catherine Deneuve.

    She was spectacular in her youth and is still gorgeous as an older woman…and considered one of the most beautiful actresses ever.

    If you have seen Belle De Jour or Repulsion, you will be blown away by her beauty. I also love the combo of those big brown eyes and blonde hair.

    http://bellasugar.com/348874

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  67. on September 29, 2008 at 6:08 pm Thursday

    Men do not see right through makeup to facial bone structure

    A lot of men do not. Some people actually think that someone like Ann Coulter is hot, when all she is is a thin blond with flowing blond tresses. For some men such an approximation of beauty is enough, and, therefore, crude make-up can be very effective in attracting certain men. But they will tend to be rather crude men.

    But then there are men, often somewhat artistically inclined men, like me, and apparently him, who, through long study of and passion for female beauty in all its variety are not easily fooled.

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  68. on September 29, 2008 at 10:14 pm Thursday

    Another problem with using artistic renderings is that a lot of the artists were gay. Hey, kinda like the fashion industry today.

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  69. on September 29, 2008 at 10:17 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    For some reason, I actually thought Lima looked worse WITh the makeup.

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  70. on September 29, 2008 at 10:19 pm Tupac Chopra

    42 Thursday:

    This is why Gisele is the top model in the world. Her face isn’t quite perfect, but that is the body to end all bodies.

    I once dated a Brazilian who was similar to Gisele in that she had a bangin’ bod but the face was “eh”. She was the first girl who was able to make me completely forget about her imperfections by being utterly colossal in bed. It’s true — Brazilians fuck like minxes. No joke, straight up, period point blank. I recommend them heartily.

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  71. on September 29, 2008 at 10:20 pm Thursday

    T.:

    Lima does look worse with the make up. A lot of 10s look worse with make up, unless it is used very minimally to correct tiny flaws.

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  72. on September 29, 2008 at 10:26 pm chicnoir

    Masha Tyelna was one of the baby/alien faced models who came along with Gemma Ward,Jessica Stam and Lisa Cant(tp) .
    I think Masha is cute in her own way but by no means is she a great beauty. Runway models of today are usually a little weird looking.

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  73. on September 29, 2008 at 10:33 pm dougjnn

    Clio —

    As for makeup … I was speaking of what it can do for pretty women who were “invisible” for one reason or another. I don’t think men are aware of this because these women are, well, invisible to them. I’d also like to point out that probably some of the hottest “10s”, whom you celebrate for their natural beauty, are in fact often wearing makeup when you think they are not. Expertly done cosmetics applied not for drama.

    The sort of woman you are speaking of Clio has never been invisible to me. Especially not if she also has intelligence and independence of mind, without an outside male mimicking “will to power”.

    In fact the process of helping such women become more confident and daring re: makeup and clothing for example can be joyous in itself, and pay out all kinds of benefits as well. A certain touch of drama, while remaining within the elastic and situational rubric of classy, should also be embraced, rather than avoided — if you were to ask me.

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  74. on September 29, 2008 at 10:34 pm dougjnn

    Meanwhile, we live in interesting times.

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  75. on September 29, 2008 at 10:37 pm dougjnn

    “outside” should be “outsized”

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  76. on September 29, 2008 at 10:55 pm Anonymous

    Yes, Thursday, I saw your post. And what’s more, I agreed with it. But much of the makeup in those photos was heavy or weird or fashion-spread oriented, esp. for Maggie Rizer (whom I could never see as a beauty, but there you are; I don’t think most men would much like her looks either). Adriana de Lima’s makeup was less jarring than Rizer’s or that of the other woman you name, but still quite heavy and unnatural. In addition, she and other darker-skinned women have a natural advantage over very fair ones: their skin, especially when young, doesn’t show redness (from sun or irritation), or tiredness, as in dark circles or pallor, as easily, so that they are likely to look better without makeup than a very pale-skinned woman could.

    I was thinking of beautiful women who quietly use a bit of foundation, concealer or powder to correct redness or undereye circles, and use a very faint hint of tinted lip gloss to make their mouths stand out a little.

    clio

    p.s. Some fashion mags I read have given advice about the makeup to wear when spending the night with a man so that you still look good – and “natural” – in the morning. They even suggest taking off evening-out makeup and discretely re-applying something that will make you look better than bare-faced, but still un-madeup to the untrained eye.

    I tell you, there’s no end to our tricks…

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  77. on September 29, 2008 at 10:57 pm dougjnn

    Thursday 91 —

    Not into porn. I wish I could say I stayed away entirely for moral reasons, but the aesthetics were just as, or perhaps even more, important.

    Ever seen Andrew Blake’s softcore, mostly vamping, stuff?

    I defy you to tell me that much of that is not aesthetically pleasing or even stunning.

    Boring after a little bit, on the other hand, you could say. It works best as wallpaper, to be glanced up at occasionally while you’re in your home office getting stuff done (i.e. some of that and a lot of surfing the web).

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  78. on September 29, 2008 at 11:00 pm Tupac Chopra

    93 doug:

    Ever seen Andrew Blake’s softcore, mostly vamping, stuff?

    I used his stuff on one of my girlfriends to get her into watching porn proper.

    It’s the perfect “gateway drug”. Heh.

    Give it a try, gents.

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  79. on September 29, 2008 at 11:11 pm chicnoir

    @Hope- Back in the 90’s models smiled sometimes. A few designers are starting to move back to the healthy happy looking model.
    Prada started the assembly line model trend.
    Models were also a little bigger back then. 90’s runway models were usually a six 4-6 compared to 0-2 runway models of today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg22FqABGRI -Herve leger 90’s show


    Check out the two videos above of 90s runway models. Tyra Banks and Madame Starsky, wife of France’s current president. FYI, Tyra Banks was a top High Fashion model before doing commerical.



    -2008 Herve Leger show

    Notice how thin the Herve Leger models are from the 2008 show. Its not the camera(only)



    Some of the Prada 08 models have stick legs.

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  80. on September 29, 2008 at 11:23 pm chicnoir

    PA
    For most high quality men the minimum attractiveness threshold is a 7, so getting over that hump from 6 to 7 is crucial.

    I don’t disagree, but as a side-note, how do you explain super-alphas of their day, John Lennon and Paul McCartney, marry Yoko and Linda?

    It could be for a number of reasons. Here are the two that I think are most probable:

    1. They can have almost any woman they want so they chose women who they really dig. Most alphas* have slept around a bit before they have met the one so looks seem not so important to them overtime.
    Don’t forget to add Clinton and Edwards onto the list.

    2. Some men marry the women they really love but have an open relationship, whereby they can enjoy the 10 who are good on the outside but empty on the inside. A lot of NBA&NFL players do this. Often they will marry their high school sweetheart or the woman who was with them when they had nothing vs the 10 who came along after they became wealthy.

    Lenon did #2, when Yoko hooked him up with May Pang.

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  81. on September 29, 2008 at 11:30 pm dougjnn

    Kassyk–

    Or Mississippi Mermaid. Not a very good movie but a stunning Deneuve, who’s enough to make viewing it enjoyable anyway.

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  82. on September 29, 2008 at 11:36 pm chicnoir

    That brings me to another point: teenage boys will overlook a great many facial flaws in favour of big breasts, and some of their elders never quite outgrow this attitude. It may be less common than it used to be, though, because there are so many more fat girls than there were when I was a teenager, so the boys’ selection is more limited.

    clio

    Might I add that some men will overlook a tough face for a big butt also.

    Think Buffie the body http://www.dimewars.com/Superlatives/Default.aspx?SuperlativeID=16&Rank=4
    Melissa Ford http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=melissa+ford&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title
    &
    Deelishes http://www.dimewars.com/Superlatives/Default.aspx?SuperlativeID=16&Rank=8

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  83. on September 29, 2008 at 7:43 pm editor

    clio banged on:
    The confidence that comes with a little polish can also make a pretty-but-invisible woman blaze out into beauty

    if she’s pretty, she won’t be invisible.
    confidence is a factor in women’s sexual market value insofar as it serves as a signal for approachability.

    But don’t you think that after a woman reaches a certain level of physical beauty, some of the disagreement about her “rank” (if you insist on ranking) on the scale are going to be arguments about personal taste?

    at the rarefied levels of beauty men allow themselves more room for finepoint analysis. the arguing over the exact rank is analogous to nerds arguing the merits of two high end graphics cards. it’s fun and easy to exaggerate differences of opinion and argue over trivialities when the chance of actually fucking the girl is zilch. but if she came onto any one of those armchair beauty critics, they’d all jizz their pants in anticipation.

    Dear oh dear, I do wish that the men on this site could for once drop the idea that every woman without fail is lying to herself and others all the time in every situation.

    it does seem to be the way to bet.

    Men do not see right through makeup to facial bone structure

    how would you know better than a man what is sexually attractive in a woman? unless you have a boner that springs to action unbidden by nothing more than the sight of a hot babe, you have nothing to go on but the indirect evidence of random men giving you their opinion, or revealing it in how they respond to you. be careful with that body of evidence — men will often tell you what you want to hear. and the different reactions you get from random men may not be so much a function of your makeup or hair styling but the forthrightness and availability and horniness of the men you meet. your clothing may not have made you appear more beautiful to men; only more sexually accessible. the guy who told you you need more chest may have just been salving his ego if he assumed you were not interested in him.

    clio, speaking for men everywhere, you’ll just have to take my word for it: men are highly attuned by the forces of evolution to detect the tiniest differences in female facial morphology that separate genuine beauty from the less attractive amongst a crowd of humanity. and yes we can evaluate the contours of a woman’s underlying facial bone structure despite the concealing efforts of makeup.

    the boner simply doesn’t lie, clio.

    anony confessed her inner daemons:
    Here’s how I see it:

    __age__ _benefit of makeup___

    10-25……………0
    25-30…………….0.5
    30-40……………1
    40-55……………2
    55-70……………1
    70+ ……………..0.5

    you see it wrong, as per usual. sounds like you escaped from the island of misfit wishful thinkers again. makeup has very little effect to ameliorate the ravages of aging. it’s better suited to hiding minor facial flaws in decent-looking girls of fertile age. in fact, makeup on an old woman will make her look like an old ghastly clownface.

    knowing this, let’s update your chart to reflect reality, shall we?

    age…………..benefit of makeup
    15-30………..depends on looks ranking (10? what are you, a pedogirl?)
    30-40………..still depends on looks ranking, but overall improvement is even worse thanks to fast approaching wall
    40+…………..zero benefit. like putting lipstick on a pig.

    hth.

    ps: have you quit your day job at the fertility clinic yet? i’d hate to think of all the bad advice you dole out to patients who aren’t aware of your self-deluded feminism-compelled misinformation campaign.

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  84. on September 29, 2008 at 11:45 pm chicnoir

    DFsaid:Few women can do print and runway because of the height requirement for runway modeling. It just so happens that these VS models can.

    The print models you see in Vogue and Harpers Bazar are the very same models you see on the runway. They are generally between 5’9-5’11 in height. The print models you are refering to may be what are called commerical models.

    Gissele was pushed fourth by Anna Wintour who is the editor and cheif of American Vogue. Carmen Kass, from Estonia was also pushed to be a supermodel by Wintours around the same time as Gissele. Kass stoped modeling for a year or two to run for office in her home conutry but did not win. So she came back to what she knowes best modeling. Sad to say but Kass is not aging well at all.

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  85. on September 29, 2008 at 11:55 pm Hope

    Models were also a little bigger back then. 90’s runway models were usually a six 4-6 compared to 0-2 runway models of today.

    Thanks for the videos chicnoir. I wondered how Tyra Banks with her ample chest got to be a top model, since nowadays the fashion models are rail thin. Most of the other models in from that time looked like they had rack, too. I guess the standards really have drastically changed in a matter of a decade.

    there’s more tweaking going on behind the scenes than many men realise.

    Very true. I have heard of cases where married women refuse to floss or shave in front of their husbands, even in extreme cases that a woman would refuse to be seen by her own family without makeup. I don’t wear makeup and am comfortable doing most things around my husband, but I don’t like to exercise in front of him.

    no educational attainment, no carreer success, no makeup, no exercise, no hob nobbing with the right people — nothing much matters but for the face they were given when mommy’s egg was fertilized by daddy’s swimmers.

    Ah, but you forget romantic love, that rush of fools. Men will overlook many outward flaws in a girl if they fall hopelessly in love with her. It might be true that men fall more easily in love with a woman who is more beautiful, but if she meets his attractiveness floor, this motivation is far more powerful than the honest boner.

    http://www.livescience.com/health/050531_love_sex.html

    “Our findings show that the brain areas activated when someone looks at a photo of their beloved only partially overlap with the brain regions associated with sexual arousal,” said Arthur Aron of the State University of New York-Stony Brook. “Sex and romantic love involve quite different brain systems.”

    “To our surprise, the activation regions associated with intense romantic love were mostly on the right side of the brain, while the activation regions associated with facial attractiveness were mostly on the left,” said Lucy Brown of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

    The processing of romantic feelings involves a “constellation of neural systems.” The researchers — neuroscientists, anthropologists and social psychologists — declare love the clear winner versus sex in terms of its power over the human mind.

    “Romantic love is one of the most powerful of all human experiences,” said study member Helen Fisher, an anthropologist at Rutgers University. “It is definitely more powerful than the sex drive.”

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  86. on September 29, 2008 at 7:56 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I disagree with the boner not lying thing. Culture can influence sexual preferences too. Otherwise the standards of beauty would never change in different eras. My friends who were late bloomers and had their first sexual encounters to porn and Playboy have totally different tastes than my friends who were “naturals” and got most of their early experience from actual real life women. I think enough cultural exposure to something can totally start to override biology after a while. I agree the boner doesn’t lie so far as what men finds attractive, i just disagree that what men find attractive is always shaped purely by evolution in this current media-saturated world.

    Also, a lot of the things Clio mentions in her post, like blonde hair, long hair, big boobs and youth are all things men are supposed to be programmed to like by evolutionary standards anyway. All are supposed to be youth and health indicators that work as attraction triggers in men, especially white men.

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  87. on September 30, 2008 at 12:05 am Comment_Eyes_Of_The_Beholder

    ****
    Men do not see right through makeup to facial bone structure

    Thursday Responded:
    A lot of men do not. Some people actually think that someone like Ann Coulter is hot, when all she is is a thin blond with flowing blond tresses.
    ****
    Yes, the most important non-excersive decision a woman can make for her looks is with her hair. It even helped Ann Coulter. +++. Long is good. Using even a really cheap “extra body” shampoo combined with less heating, dying, ect. can take your hair up to the “super-lovely” level. It will take some time for your damaged hair to be replaced with undamaged hair, but the end result is good. As a man, I am not versed in the arts of hair manipulation, but simply by using $1.00 V05 Extra Body causes every barber to say “wow, you have lovely hair”. Every single freaking one. It’s wierd and disturbing. Disturbing.

    Also, the problem with smart people designing plans for a “low” level of intelligence, is the same problem I’m seeing here.

    Almost every commenter is WAAAAAAYYYYYY above-average in perception. Just because it has no effect for you, doesn’t mean it has no effect to others, especially if they are in a over-sexed haze. Which is another point. Most players have learned to keep the lust from clouding their thinking. Most normal men do not.

    Finally, the woman is a man! Ann Coulter has an Adam’s Apple!

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  88. on September 30, 2008 at 12:12 am KassyK

    dougjnn–Great call. She is so lovely in that movie…actually in any movie–she is just so watchable.

    Ok-I have a girl crush on her big time and have since I was a teenager.

    ChicNoir–Douzen Kroes and Angela Lindvall are both very very pretty…and yep–they can do print advertising for fashion, beauty, editorials, runway, and Victoria Secret.

    Douzen is EVERYWHERE lately. She is gorgeous and so versatile.

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  89. on September 30, 2008 at 12:30 am chicnoir

    @kassy K- I don’t like Angela Lindvall look. She has had three children BTW. She looks like the type of girl you would see on the Jerry Springer show. Douzen on the other hand has the face of a VS model but no curves to speak of. She is built like a very thin number 1.

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  90. on September 30, 2008 at 12:30 am T. AKA Ricky Raw

    The only model that really excites me is Angela Lindvall. The rest of them I don’t really care about.

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  91. on September 29, 2008 at 8:36 pm dougjnn

    Clio/Anonymous 7 —
    Yes, I largely agree with those points. His way of explaining it is at most the first derivative. We spend most of our time thinking about the finer details which distinguish various kinds of alpha attractive girls/women.

    Clio/Anonymous 47 –

    In my observation, the kind of woman most likely to get an undeserved “hot” label is the women who is heavily made-up in the “Cosmo girl” way (as opposed to a high fashion way), with either really big or really long/straight hair, preferably blonde, and a big bosom. If such a woman is also relatively young (under 30), she’s almost certain to soak up most of the male attention in a bar, even if there are many women there with better bone structure and better-proportioned figures. That’s esp. true in blue-collar bars as opposed to trendy hipster places.

    There is quite a bit of truth to this. However, I think you are greatly exaggerating the importance of blonde in this observation. What men are really going gag gag for here is a woman who’s clearly somewhere in the alpha girl universe raw looks wise, albeit I’ll accept your observation that she’s more often a 7 or 8 without her various beauty aides), who has decided to make herself look like some kind of SEX DOLL.

    She could go for a raven haired Betty Paige look and get just as much attention, or anyway damn close. The only reason it might be less is that the fact that she’s sex dolling might not be as obvious to every male as the blonde bombshell type is ditched for other models. But it will be plenty obvious to very many. Even though they probably wouldn’t explain their attraction in exactly so many words.

    The sex doll emulation sends powerful signals about both availability, and heat once you get there. They may be false signals, but they register.

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  92. on September 30, 2008 at 12:51 am chicnoir

    T are you kidding???

    What about Liya Kabede, she is a great beauty?

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  93. on September 29, 2008 at 8:57 pm editor

    T:
    I disagree with the boner not lying thing. Culture can influence sexual preferences too.

    do you think culture influenced your boner the first time you postpubescently laid eyes on a long luscious thigh? or was it just an automatic, unguided thermonuclear blast of lust from the depths of your being? at that point you were exposed to 12+ years of cultural conditioning.

    Otherwise the standards of beauty would never change in different eras.

    first, they haven’t changed. reubens weird matronly affectations aside, most paintings of his era show attractive thin women of 0.7 waist hip ratio.
    second, it’s easy to confuse pop culture- and academia-driven beauty standards with what actually turns men on. to accurately evaluate the latter, just look at which women men with options choose.

    i do think, though, that there are slight but observable racial differences in what men find attractive in women. i.e. black guys may like a little more junk in the trunk and asian guys more paedomorphic features.

    I think enough cultural exposure to something can totally start to override biology after a while.

    i doubt this, otherwise fat chicks would be universally desired by this point.

    Also, a lot of the things Clio mentions in her post, like blonde hair, long hair, big boobs and youth are all things men are supposed to be programmed to like by evolutionary standards anyway.

    true, but hair color is rather ancillary to attractiveness, whereas boobs are a strong secondary sexual characteristic. all else equal, most men (that is, 90% and up) prefer nice round perky tits to either small ones or oversized saggy udders.

    thursday:
    As in all things, some men are easier to fool than others.

    are they being fooled or are they fooling themselves?
    in something so hindbrain innately wired as sexual desire, the only fooling would be whatever guys tell themselves to assuage their egos.

    And some men just have crude taste in women, just as some people prefer macs and cheese to filet mignon.

    sluttiness is not necessarily synonymous with lower physical attractiveness, though it is often a leading indicator.
    one thing to keep in mind is that which women men choose to marry or long term date are not always the women they are most sexually attracted to.
    that is, the boner doesn’t lie, but the man behind the boner does lie. to himself, usually.

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  94. on September 30, 2008 at 12:57 am T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I wouldn’t toss kabede out of my bed, don’t get me wrong, but i’m not that crazy about her either. something about her looks are kind of bland to me.

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  95. on September 30, 2008 at 1:04 am KassyK

    Chic–I personally love Julia Stegner…she is my current favorite–but she also is that very tall and skinny thing but I love her face…her features are just so pretty.

    Doutzen has a GREAT face–she almost reminds me sometimes of a mix of Adriana Lima and Rebecca Romijn.

    Lindvall transforms like nothing I have ever seen.

    I don’t think she looks Springerish or WT at all? She looks very WASPY to me….like a rich Connecticut girl who moved to the Lower East Side and parties or something. 🙂

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  96. on September 30, 2008 at 1:07 am chicnoir

    Look up Kabede’s Tiffany ad or some of her pictures on the runway.

    I like Lara Stone, another Dutch model but her looks may be a bit out there for you.

    http://www.style.com/peopleparties/modelsearch/person3653

    &
    http://nymag.com/fashion/models/lstone/larastone/

    Lara’s look is very versatile. In some of her pics, she looks like a completely different person.

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  97. on September 30, 2008 at 1:07 am T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I just noticed you guys mentioned Lindvall before I did. Needless to say Chic, strongly disagree. And the fact she had 3 kids and still looks that way makes her even hotter to me. Other than her though, most models don’t move me.

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  98. on September 29, 2008 at 9:12 pm anony

    to # 51.
    Hey, I’m enjoying the clubbing.

    There are other reasons women wear makeup than to incite boners. We wear it to boost our confidence, to satisfy our inner artists, or look exotic or serious or whatever.
    It’s not always about the men.

    I agree with Clio that men don’t notice the nuances.
    The most meaningful compliments and support come from other women:
    Ex.: “Wow! your periwinkle top makes your eyes light up.”
    or “I love the way your lip color matches your sweater.”
    Certainly we love attention from men, but they don’t notice the subtleties of our efforts.

    p.s. have you checked for varicocles? avoiding hot tubs and anabolic steroids?

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  99. on September 29, 2008 at 9:12 pm editor

    brandy:
    So should 13-year-old girls be given doses of oestrogen in the hope that they will grow into more beautiful women? “Absolutely not,” Law Smith says. “It certainly may make them more attractive, but who knows what other effects the hormone may have?”

    she’s gotta be kidding. the one variable that will influence your life more than any other is your sexual attractiveness to the opposite sex. beauty is the CORE REACTOR of POWER for women, and advising against improving a girl’s beauty is putting the emptiness of ideology ahead of practicality. if i had a daughter whose estrogen levels were low, i would certainly impress upon her that the slightly elevated risk of side effects is insignificant to the improvement in her life’s prospects she would get from an estrogenic beauty enhancement.

    with a name like “law smith”, no wonder she dispenses such horrible advice.

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  100. on September 29, 2008 at 9:19 pm editor

    anony cliche machine:
    We wear it to boost our confidence, to satisfy our inner artists, or look exotic or serious or whatever.

    your conscious rationalizing is window dressing for your subconscious genetic programming.
    or: self-delusion, it’s what’s for dinner! and lunch, and breakfast, and brunch…

    It’s not always about the men.

    “it’s not always about the men” is what every woman says right when she’s applying her makeup before prancing out to the nightclubs.
    color me unconvinced.

    I agree with Clio that men don’t notice the nuances.

    we notice the nuances that matter to sexual reproduction. i.e., the details of your face.
    hint: your periwinkle top does not matter.

    p.s. have you checked for varicocles? avoiding hot tubs and anabolic steroids?

    you must have me confused with someone else. your husband perhaps?

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  101. on September 29, 2008 at 9:22 pm Thursday

    Guys differ. In intelligence. In talent. In taste. And the differences among guys are as interesting as the underlying samenesses.

    Granted that there is far less variance in men’s sexual taste than in many other areas (and far, far less than women’s wishful thinking would tell you), but there still is variance. It is interesting that you accept the idea of average group differences in taste (which I would agree with), but don’t credit differences in taste among individuals, which are in fact far considerably larger. Don’t make the mistake of taking your own tastes as universal.

    One of the greatest realizations someone can make is that others are not like yourself. You should take some of the the medicine you deal out to Clio. You are a man, so you are a better judge of men’s taste than she, but you are not every man. Judging by your phenomenal writing ability, you are a man of some sensitivity. Not all men have that. Growing up and working summers in the country, you get thrown in with a lot of blue collar guys, and trust me when I say that most of them genuinely prefer the likes of the post-Baywatch Pamela Anderson to someone like Audrey Hepburn. They can appreciate only the crudest of sexual signals.

    P.S. The fact that you may enjoy the occasional dumpster dive with the local bar slut does not negate this. I still eat Kraft dinner once in a while.

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  102. on September 29, 2008 at 9:24 pm anony

    to #62,

    re: “Otherwise the standards of beauty would never change in different eras.

    first, they haven’t changed. ”

    They’ve changed hugely. Go to a art museum with historical art. Look at male and female nudes from prehistoric, medieval (not many nudes available), renaissance, colonial, and then modern nudes. Ex.: the very large breasts seen today only surfaced in artistic work in the late 1800s. Look at Venis de Milo at the Louvre

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  103. on September 30, 2008 at 1:25 am chicnoir

    And the fact she had 3 kids and still looks that way makes her even hotter to me

    I was giving her five points for having three children and not falling apart. Liya Kabede has had two.

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  104. on September 29, 2008 at 9:33 pm editor

    thursday:
    Granted that there is far less variance in men’s sexual taste than in many other areas (and far, far less than women’s wishful thinking would tell you), but there still is variance.

    that’s the important qualifier — there is less variance in men’s response to female beauty than in men’s other attributes like intelligence or moral compunction. this is not to say there is no variance at all. but we’re only talking about a point up or down, not 5 points in either direction.
    post-baywatch pamela may not have the exquisite beauty of hepburn but she’s still fuckable. so if one of those blue collar dudes introduced me to pamela i’d take a crack at it.

    basically, if there was a noticeable amount of variance in men’s sexual tastes equivalent to their differences of opinion in other matters of taste, then we wouldn’t see nearly every guy in a bar drooling over the same three or four hot girls.
    yet we do.
    note: drooling != choosing targets for maximizing hookup odds.

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  105. on September 30, 2008 at 1:56 am freak show

    of course, there is the option of cosmetic surgery. i’m not opposed to that. if i had an unattractive daughter i’d be smarter to start a nip/tuck fund for her than a college fund. she’d thank me for it.

    rhinoplasty has done wonders for a lot of models, actresses and singers. i was flabbergasted when i saw some of the chicks who underwent this procedure. they went from being ugly or average to very attractive- the nasal shape affects boners more than any other part of the female anatomy!

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  106. on September 29, 2008 at 10:10 pm editor

    anony spouted more gender studies cliches:
    They’ve changed hugely. Go to a art museum with historical art. Look at male and female nudes from prehistoric, medieval (not many nudes available), renaissance, colonial, and then modern nudes.

    it’s problematic to use artistic renderings — paintings and sculptures — as evidence of what men were sexually attracted to in women from bygone eras, because much of the art was not created as masturbation material for men. many artists, for instance, exalted fertility and exaggerated female attributes to make that point.

    also, it’s possible female beauty has EVOLVED in the couple thousand years of recorded history, so that what was a 10 in 900 AD may be a 7 today. but the direction of evolution is toward more feminine women, not less feminine.

    otherwise, i wouldn’t use art as a proxy for male tastes. a better indicator is what male buy for the express purpose of getting off — and there you’ll need to look at playboy centerfolds and the like. and they all fit the same mold — hotties with 0.7 waist hip ratios, youth, clear skin, big firm tits, large eyes, high cheekbones, small jaw and chin, and lustrous hair.

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  107. on September 29, 2008 at 10:23 pm editor

    thursday:
    Irrelevant. The point is would they take Hepburn over Anderson. Anderson by a mile.

    unless audrey paraded herself in front of them we can’t know for sure which of the two they would choose. you’re only going by what they drool over on their auto shop calenders. hepburn is too old school for exact pinup calendar comparisons.

    anyhow, objectively speaking (that is, refraining from judging pam’s fuck-worthiness by her tattoos and low class) pamela is not more than 2 points away from audrey in beauty. more like 1 point. so if it were true that your blue collar buddies would choose pam all the time, it only tells us that they are 1 point or so away from your particular tastes. well within the standard deviation of male sexual attraction. after all, they’re not falling over themselves to bang joan cusack.

    False dichotomy. More like 2 points. 3 if the guy is a particularly dumb lunkhead.

    if this were the case we would see more variance in beauty among playboy centerfolds and pornstars. but we don’t; they mostly fall within a point or two of the rest of their subgroup.

    you have to take into account the sluttiness/sexiness factor when observing men’s reactions to women. audrey was always in demure poses. pamela has been in a homemade porn vid. to your blue collar crew, pam may seem more attainable, or more sexually available, and so they find it easier to publicly express their lust for her. a man with refined tastes may find it more pleasurable to muse ineffectually over the incandescent beauty of an unattainable woman like hepburn, but he’ll still whack off to youporn when no one’s watching.

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  108. on September 29, 2008 at 10:32 pm Tupac Chopra

    ed:
    the boner simply doesn’t lie, clio.

    Yeah, Clio. 😉 😉

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  109. on September 29, 2008 at 10:36 pm whiskey

    I’ll have to go with Hope on this one. There’s some evidence to suggest that childhood and early adult cancers, including breast cancer, derive from early estrogen levels rising. It does a daughter no good to be sexy, and then die of cancer at age 25 or so. To take the extreme risk example.

    Just as bad, adding Testosterone to a man’s body. It’s just a very complex system, and hormones being added may cause other things to out of whack or haywire. Cancer being one of them.

    Thursday, I am not convinced it is a sign of male “weakness” more than desirability. After all, there is no “risk” involved in searching for pics on the internet of some actress. The act is by definition “risk-free” without any human contact whatsoever.

    It is telling IMHO that Fox finds it necessary to gin up publicity by telling fables of her “affair” with a Russian stripper, or Britney or Lindsay Lohan or Paris Hilton have to produce tabloid-friendly antics, while women like Hannigan, and the like who tread the good-geek girl route have legions of horny male geek fans.

    I think it’s probably more evidence that behavioral cues can dominate once a certain floor of attractiveness is reached. As far as say, Anderson and Monroe and Madonna and other “spectacular” women who portrayed sex-pots for years, their popularity seemed higher from say, 1948-1988, than today.

    I think this marks a dramatic shift in what men find attractive — a certain floor of physical beauty, but geeky-nice girl behavior. I think there is a big shift in men’s preferences. Pin up types still have fans, but the explosion of “nice girl” types seems strange set against 1948-88.

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  110. on September 29, 2008 at 10:41 pm chicnoir

    Some high Fashion models work for commerical clients like Victoria’s Secreat and SI Swimsuit Issue
    Check out:
    Liya Kabede
    Douzen Kroes
    Channel Iman
    Hillary Rhoda
    Yasmin Warsame
    Jessica Stam
    Isabella Fontana
    Jessica White
    Alek Wek
    Anouck Lepere
    angelina lindvall
    Jaunel McKenzie
    kate moss

    Natalia Vodianova

    For the girl, it could mean the difference between being ignored and savoring the glorious experience of getting pumped and dumped by a beta.

    How can betas be choosy? Betas should just be happy they are getting some from a woman who did cost 29.99 & does not need to be inflated?

    Makeup really hits on all cylinders for semi-attractive girls who aren’t quite in the running for genuine hotness
    Unless a guy is an eight or better he should not utter statements like the above.

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  111. on September 30, 2008 at 2:50 am whiskey

    T —

    No, the Apatow leading man is a function of the nerdy beta wish fulfillment. Women are not going to go for beta guys. Why would they change?

    That these movies are hits, and hits with guys, says something.

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  112. on September 30, 2008 at 2:51 am Peter

    the nasal shape affects boners more than any other part of the female anatomy!

    Well, I, uh, wouldn’t entirely agree …

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  113. on September 29, 2008 at 10:51 pm Thursday

    ed: unless audrey paraded herself in front of them we can’t know for sure what they would take.

    Foolhardy aesthetic apostle that I am, I have actually brought in pictures of women I did like. They weren’t totally unappreciative. A very few actually gave me props for good taste.

    or two

    I win.

    a man with refined tastes may find it more pleasurable to muse ineffectually over the incandescent beauty of an unattainable woman like hepburn

    Or he can grow some balls, get some game, and actully do something to get beautiful women into his life. I miss my books and pictures. A little.

    he’ll still whack off to youporn when no one’s watching

    Not into porn. I wish I could say I stayed away entirely for moral reasons, but the aesthetics were just as, or perhaps even more, important.

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  114. on September 30, 2008 at 2:56 am Affe

    After last weekend the only thing bigger and bluer than Masha’s eyes are my balls.

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  115. on September 29, 2008 at 11:01 pm editor

    Unless a guy is an eight or better he should not utter statements like the above.

    all men should be choosier in their courtship. it serves to keep women intrigued… and in love.

    clio:
    Some fashion mags I read have given advice about the makeup to wear when spending the night with a man so that you still look good – and “natural” – in the morning.

    pretty tough to keep that act up until she gets the ring on her finger.

    They even suggest taking off evening-out makeup and discretely re-applying something that will make you look better than bare-faced, but still un-madeup to the untrained eye.

    keep telling yourself that.

    I tell you, there’s no end to our tricks…

    you’re not fooling anyone.

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  116. on September 29, 2008 at 11:19 pm Anonymous

    Ach, you’re losing your sense of humour.

    I was talking about women who are attractive/beautiful to begin with, as I said. I was only trying to argue that even where a beautiful woman is concerned, there’s more tweaking going on behind the scenes than many men realise.

    clio

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  117. on September 29, 2008 at 11:41 pm editor

    clio tut tutted the devil:
    Ach, you’re losing your sense of humour.

    all play and no hate makes me a dull boy.

    PS
    here is what i think motivates the female will to believe that makeup is effective at hiding flaws from the precision guided instrument of men’s visual intake port:

    the fear of the immutable.

    if you’ll notice, women are the most outraged by the idea of evolutionary psychology and unchangeable genetic fate. that physical beauty should be so unalterable and at the same time so critical to a woman’s prospects for snagging an alpha male of her own sends shivers down their spines. if true, it means they cannot do much to improve their value on the open market. no educational attainment, no carreer success, no makeup, no exercise, no hob nobbing with the right people — nothing much matters but for the face they were given when mommy’s egg was fertilized by daddy’s swimmers.

    yet, this is precisely how the sexual market works. and so, as the gears of the pretty lie machine clank and sputter to dispense more of its life-affirming self-delusions, the “social conditioning” brigade strikes out at the descending shroud of hopeless darkness.

    of course, there is the option of cosmetic surgery. i’m not opposed to that. if i had an unattractive daughter i’d be smarter to start a nip/tuck fund for her than a college fund. she’d thank me for it.

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  118. on September 30, 2008 at 3:51 am Czar

    124 – Even better if Chic joined in with the triple-dong.

    or The Lick.

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  119. on September 30, 2008 at 4:06 am agnostic

    Not reading 125 comments.

    Guys’ preferences can be pushed around somewhat by whatever social forces account for cultural change, but they can’t push them beyond their natural limits.

    The average Playboy Playmate of the Month, for a given year, can be as young as 19 and as old as 25 or so (iirc — did a post about it on GNXP.com), and the average Playmate has gotten older since roughly 1970. Miss Universe contestants are typically 18 to 26, with most around 21 to 23.

    So, there are changing tastes, but the average never goes as low as 13 or as high as 27 — human nature won’t allow it. The same is true for height, girliness of features, etc.

    I don’t blame gay men — the trend toward andro females began in the early 1970s when women’s lib took off. That sounds more plausible — y’know, throwing off the traditional ideal of femininity and enthroning the Power Bitch in her place.

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  120. on September 30, 2008 at 4:17 am Thursday

    it’s funny, people are fond of saying this whenever i skewer their sacred cows with my special brand of delightful hate.

    Typical girl shaming strategy:

    GIRL:
    “Why would you say that? You’re just full of hate because you can’t get any girls.”

    GUY (telling the truth):
    “Actually I’m doing the best I ever have. I’m dating a bunch of 8s and 9s.”

    GIRL:
    “Oh my god, could you be any lamer! Bragging about all the girls you have. You are a loser.”

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  121. on September 30, 2008 at 12:47 am T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Hey, speaking of the media holding up an undesirable ideal as supposedly sexually attractive, I’d love for you to tackle the modern male version of this, the Apatow Beta as leading man:

    http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2008/04/the_apatow_schlub_too_ugly_for.html

    http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2008/03/galumphy_guys_r.php

    Final straw for me are the commercials for this Nick and Norah movie with the ugly, uber-beta Michael Cera as a guy that supposedly goes from dating this:

    straight to dating this:

    also, is there any chance of this starting to translate to reality if enough of the media push the idea enough? can betas eventually become the most desirable mate choice through sheer media barrage?

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  122. on September 30, 2008 at 12:50 am chicnoir

    dougjnn
    Peter 56 –

    We all know what my taste in women involves.

    A chu chu chia pet.

    In the form of an early caveman squat fertility figurine. With a verdant chia growth encouraged in a certain locale

    *DEAD*

    😆

    T said: think enough cultural exposure to something can totally start to override biology after a while.
    reply:i doubt this, otherwise fat chicks would be universally desired by this point.

    Oh but they are in places where starvation is a real threat.

    Americans don’t glorify fatness we reject it.

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  123. on September 30, 2008 at 12:51 am Anonymous

    Boy, you are determined to misread me this evening. I did say that the women whom I believe to use makeup discretely for a little secret improvement are beautiful to begin with – and so good at what they do that it’s not really detectable to anyone who doesn’t know what to look for.

    Believe me, I accept that the genetic lottery is very important to a woman’s prospects – though great beauty often doesn’t translate into much marital happiness. And I’ve known a few women who were plain (not outright hideous) who had great sexual magnetism. This is very rare, but it does happen from time to time.

    clio

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  124. on September 30, 2008 at 2:47 am dirty blonde

    102 –

    “and so, as the gears of the pretty lie machine clank and sputter to dispense more of its life-affirming self-delusions, the “social conditioning” brigade strikes out at the descending shroud of hopeless darkness.”

    my god. you’re so dramatic! is the future for us young women really so bleak? i think it’s been a while since you’ve gotten laid…

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  125. on September 30, 2008 at 3:12 am editor

    dirty little slut:
    my god. you’re so dramatic! is the future for us young women really so bleak?

    asses to asses, busts to busts.

    i think it’s been a while since you’ve gotten laid…

    it’s funny, people are fond of saying this whenever i skewer their sacred cows with my special brand of delightful hate.
    on the contrary, if there’s any correlation it usually runs in the other direction — my best hate follows soon on the heels of some great sex.
    must be the boost in testosterone.

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  126. on September 30, 2008 at 3:17 am Tupac Chopra

    123:

    asses to asses, busts to busts.

    Hehe. I have an intuition that Yours Truly and Elizabeth will be doing the old ass-to-ass any day now.

    Even better if Chic joined in with the triple-dong.

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  127. on September 30, 2008 at 3:47 am QT

    props on your hip/waist ratio knowledge. Regardless of the total amount of fat, men have always favored a hip/waist ratio of .70 – the greatest indicator of a woman’s reproductive health (and whether or not she has had someone else’s child, as pregnancy tends to skew this measurement).

    The person who did this study even compared the measurements of Playboy centerfolds and beauty pageant winners within the US over the past thirty years. Altho both groups got thinner over that period, the ratio remained exactly the same at .70.

    BTW, men rate fidelity/chastity second to physical appearance in their list of “wants” of a mate. If you haven’t read the “Evolution of Desire”, I highly recommend it.

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  128. on September 30, 2008 at 11:29 am Markku

    they cannot do much to improve their value on the open market. no educational attainment, no carreer success, no makeup, no exercise,

    Otherwise I agree, but I wouldn’t underestimate the power of excercise and diet to improve a woman’s looks, particularly with the obesity epidemic wreaking havoc on female beauty like the plague. Almost any young woman with merely average facial beauty can make herself a 7 simply by keeping herself lean and fit and by enhancing muscle tone in the right places(buttocks). And those with sub-average facial beauty (but not downright ugly) can improve their bodies up to where they are perfectly doable at least doggy-style.

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  129. on September 30, 2008 at 11:46 am Mu'Min

    Nigella Lawson. Just stumbled on her surfing around the Web looking for something else. Had never heard of her before this moment. She’s 48, been married twice, her first marriage when she was about 32. She’s good looking, and can cook. In my book, perfect.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  130. on September 30, 2008 at 11:46 am Markku

    with my special brand of delightful hate.

    I must say that this hate of yours is beginning to sound more than a bit betaish. The more alpha way to feel about the inane blatherings of women would be condescention.

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  131. on September 30, 2008 at 12:24 pm dougjnn

    Markku 133–

    I must say that this hate of yours is beginning to sound more than a bit betaish. The more alpha way to feel about the inane blatherings of women would be condescention.

    This is frankly inane.

    Not everyone restricts what they care about to what most directly affects themselves. If all alphas were to follow your way of thinking none would ever care about men generally, or the better 2/3 or men or whatever. Further there are many things about the current feminist molded family law/divorce law sytem, and to a lesser but still considerable extent pervasive cultural messages that men must deal with and no man is completely immune from.

    The general cultural surround, in which women simultaneous feel that men should feel honor bound to support them, cater to them, and pretend they’re fully competitive even when it’s not in the man’s enlightened self interest to do so, but at the same time grant them full freedom and respect as at least equal competitors in the workplace and political and social arenas, is long past the point where it richly deserves pointed challenge. All affirmative action of every sort should end immediately for women. It’s one thing for many or most men to be undisturbed by truly capable women competing in any field or rising to any position, but why on earth should men support the feminist social engineering goal of molding women, men and social institutions such that women are however artifically and with whatever affirmative action and other props may be required, made equally represented in all high status, cushy, or otherwise desireable occupatons (certainly not putting out oil well fires, collecting garbage or doing heavy construction)?

    Why isn’t it high time that all men, or all but the most hopelessly leftist addled, get off that feminist same career results bandwagon — as well as most other feminist gender sameness ones?

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  132. on September 30, 2008 at 1:27 pm Gannon

    @Mu’Min
    I’ll admit that looks good for her age. However, remember that she uses make up and the cameras are positioned in a way to hide her age and imperfections. Also, she looks younger for her age. Most women do not look like that at 48.
    You asked previously if feminism or islamism was the bigger threat in Europe. Both threats reinforce each other, feminism makes women have fewer or no children, and this makes countries palgued by feminism specialy vulnerable to Islamism.
    Femenism is an ideology whose aim is to turn women into men: it’s ultimate goal is that all females lead a masculine lifestyle and children ought to be raised by the state collectively: it destroys the sacred community between man and woman and wants to abolish the family.
    In the end, feminists will die out because they won’t reproduce.
    Islam is the more dangerous threat probably: I have respect for Islam and what it stands for. I like Islamic people. But that’s also the reason why I know that the Islam is not compatible with Westyern society. In the West, we have a strict separation between the church and the state. This is something muslims can’t understand, because Islam controls all aspects of life. The Balkan is a good example for the future of Europe if we aren’t able to stop islamization. Brutal civil war…

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  133. on September 30, 2008 at 1:51 pm Hope

    Alpha and the girl had a 3 year long, tumultous, on-again off-again type relationship. He loved her but she was wanting a ring.

    A few posts above I wrote about prolonging the period of dopamine action with drama and lack of stability. I had a 2 year tumultuous thing with my husband that was not even on-again off-again, but nonexistent. The longing was strong despite the total lack of a physical relationship. I know about this kind of thing intimately. Women crave stability but get off on drama. It’s stupid.

    She was being the needy one, the one who wanted a ring. But the man has to do the asking first, and he has to want to marry her. I think if the alpha had been the stable type and forsaken all the other girls for her, she would have gone down the same path in the bedroom with him that she did with the beta. Of course, then the question is begged, would the alpha still be an alpha, or would he have been domesticated?

    Question: prior to your getting married, did any of the women of your family give you a talk about who to choose for a husband? This is virtually nonexistent for American women in our time, and it shows. What’s your take on this?

    My mom told me to marry a rich guy with a university degree at least, and I ended up marrying a poor guy with barely a high school degree. My choice was based on “love,” too, but only partly. When I got married, we had already been living together for 6 years and known each other for 8. So it was more like a formalization of a common law marriage than actually taking any leap of faith.

    Much of the research I’m quoting are done by women. I do not think modern American women are stupid. I learned much of what I know from them. Women have always had to make compromises and sacrifices. The wisdom of an older woman might now be less heeded, but it’s now easier to find out what she has to say. There is so much knowledge out there to be absorbed, and all one has to do is reach for it. Technology brought human interaction and knowledge exchange to a level historically unprecedented.

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  134. on September 30, 2008 at 1:53 pm Hope

    Wrong thread, oops.

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  135. on September 30, 2008 at 4:11 pm Dave

    Speaking of all this, is anyone else fairly creeped out by the quintessential Playboy Model with their long blond hair and overdone mascara (with some sort of hue shadow going on in many cases).

    Historically, Hugh Hefner started his magazine by spotlighting the “girl next door”. The problem is that it still does – if you consider the girl next door stuck as being in the 60s where Hugh Hefner apparently still keeps his taste.

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  136. on September 30, 2008 at 12:35 pm Markku

    dougjnn:

    “Markku 133–

    I must say that this hate of yours is beginning to sound more than a bit betaish. The more alpha way to feel about the inane blatherings of women would be condescention.”

    This is frankly inane.

    Not everyone restricts what they care about to what most directly affects themselves. If all alphas were to follow your way of thinking none would ever care about men generally, or the better 2/3 or men or whatever.

    He may explain himself, if he should he feel like doing so, but I don’t think he was making any kind of a political statement in the exhange between him and the women about whether beauty is determined by culture or biology I was commenting on. Here we had a bunch of women making some silly but rather politically inconsequential statements. It’s different, though, when the issue is feminist ideology and policy.

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  137. on September 30, 2008 at 1:05 pm Peter

    Hey, speaking of the media holding up an undesirable ideal as supposedly sexually attractive, I’d love for you to tackle the modern male version of this, the Apatow Beta as leading man

    One theory is that the movies of this type are designed to draw in Betas by leading them to believe that they too can get women. My take is rather more cynical, that the movies are satires of Betas. In other words, by showing a Beta snagging a woman who, in real life, wouldn’t give him the time of day, these movies are actually poking fun at Betas in a subtle but malicious way.

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  138. on September 30, 2008 at 7:02 pm Mu'Min

    Gannon,
    I knew you’d concede that Lawson was da bomb, LOL.

    As for Islam and the West, as a Muslim, I have to tell you, that it is wholly compatible with Western ideals, such as the Vote. And there are many examples in our world and time that proves this. He Islamic World is a big place, my friend. Please don’t believe the hype.

    Now, having said that, let me be clear – I hate Al-Qaeda and all that they stand for. They are not “holy warriors” they are wanton killers – and those who suffer at their hands most, are other Muslims. They need to be removed from the face of the Earth, and I care not who does it, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist.

    I suppose I would be considered a Muslim Moderate, LOL. I believe in “Islamism Lite” in that I am of the view that when it comes to mating and family formation, men should and must have the upper hand in some respects. Men should be the head of the household and make key decisions (as well as take the blame should they fail) thereof. Having said that, I also believe that women should have the right to education, career and the vote, but on a pure merit basis. There should be no handouts or affirmative action of any kind to any woman in these areas – if she cannot pass muster, she doesn’t deserve to be there, period.

    I’m against polygamy, and my reasons for this are multifaceted. But the simplest reason is because it is impractical as public policy. We all know where it leads. We all know that road ends.

    Feminism in my view has fudamentally weakened the West. I has made their men weak and cowardly. Whiskey recently made an excellent point on his blog recently about how when Cho went on a shooting spree, the only ones to oppose him was an octogenarian Holocaust surviver and a forty-something year old academic. The men of younger ages were MIA. It is those kinds of things that will sound the death knell for the West.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  139. on September 30, 2008 at 7:10 pm Toni

    Yeah, supermodels aren’t supposed to be hot, they’re seriously supposed to make the clothes they’re wearing look good – hence the funny body structure, skinny weight, etc. They’re not for guys to look, but for the fashion magazines and girls to look at.

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  140. on September 30, 2008 at 7:33 pm agnostic

    Historically, Hugh Hefner started his magazine by spotlighting the “girl next door”. The problem is that it still does – if you consider the girl next door stuck as being in the 60s where Hugh Hefner apparently still keeps his taste.

    Not true at all. There used to be some webpage with every Playboy Playmate’s shoot back to the first issue, and browsing through it, you can’t help but be struck by how masculinized and skanky the Playmates have become — starting in the mid-1970s. Here are the ones from ’63 – ’77, and they look very girly (NSFW, obviously):

    http://www.lolafox.org/Anni70/VM18/VM18/Playmate/Playmate.htm

    They were actually very dark-haired again until the mid-1970s and after.

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  141. on September 30, 2008 at 9:03 pm Mu'Min

    Agnostic,
    I have to agree. I haven’t seen the site you mentioned, but I did see some of the pin-up models of the 60s and early 70s, and they’re a far sight more beautiful than the ones of today. They had a more natural vibe to them, and not the overmanufactured look that I loathe in many women today.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  142. on September 30, 2008 at 8:52 pm how models increase your chances of scoring

    There are hundreds of these women walking the streets of New York. Everyone is an aspiring actress or model here. (Though not a model-type, you’ll recall that even Spitzer’s whore was a wanna-be hip-hop diva). These tall, haughty bitchy women are, as he says: not really that hot. They just act as if they believe they are that hot. But the beautiful thing about their presence here in Manhattan is that they make genuinely hot, short, non-uberfashionable chicks feel insecure and very unattractive. This creates absurd situations where you have a bona-fide 8 say things like, “well, i know i’, not like, a model or anything, but i think i’m PRETTY cute…” to which i respond in a grave tone (but with hidden glee): “no, you’re no model. but you know yourself, you’re confident in yourself… and that’s what’s important”.

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  143. on October 1, 2008 at 1:36 am chicnoir

    Chic Noir, if you’re reading along, what do you say of the so-called “plus models”? I don’t follow fashion anywhere near as much as you do, but I do like Crystal Renn, I think she’s cute. What’s your take?
    I love Crystal and she has had some mainstream success. She was in a Dolce and Gabanna ad. She has also walked in a few high end shows alongside the thinner models.

    Dave
    Speaking of all this, is anyone else fairly creeped out by the quintessential Playboy Model with their long blond hair and overdone mascara (with some sort of hue shadow going on in many cases).

    Historically, Hugh Hefner started his magazine by spotlighting the “girl next door”. The problem is that it still does – if you consider the girl next door stuck as being in the 60s where Hugh Hefner apparently still keeps his taste.

    Dave somewhere along the line the PB women of today have become bots. They all look alike and have had the same plastic surgery. I’ve seen older pics of PB models from 60’s-70’s and I noticed how those models were all uniquely very pretty.

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  144. on October 1, 2008 at 2:05 am dougjnn

    Mu’min–

    As for Islam and the West, as a Muslim, I have to tell you, that it is wholly compatible with Western ideals, such as the Vote.

    What’s the origin of your Islamic faith? Does it come from an immigrant ancestor, or is it by way of Nation of Islam (or another route that doesn’t occur to me at the moment)?

    The core Western ideals (when considered as contrasting with those of other civilizations which is really the only way the phrase has much meaning) are I think 1) the separation of church (faith) and state, which lead to other balancing of powers and the rise of individualism; 2) individualism and heroic greatness straight up, whether that’s such Homeric heros as Odysseus and Achilles, or Scientific Geniuses or Artistic Geniuses, or Great Statesmen; 3) belief in rational, logical and non magical explanations of forces and events, which began with Greek Natural Philosophy, and became Western Science and Technology — which has remade and overtaken the world.

    I think Islam is fundamentally opposed to 1), weak on 2) and also weak on 3), heavily for reasons of opposition to 1). Note the tension and backsliding in Turkey.

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  145. on October 1, 2008 at 2:11 am Mu'Min

    Doug,
    I converted to Islam circa 1992. Never joined the NOI, but I have great respect for what they did historically to rebuild Black lives in the ubran core. Malcolm X remains arguably the single best example of achievement of the NOI’s programs.

    Wrt the history or Islam, please study what happened right after Muhammad died. Abu Bakr was voted in as the first Caliph. Voted in.

    Also, please study the Medieval period in Europe, read Golden Age of The Moor, Van Sertima, Rutgers U. If it were not for Islam Europe would in all likelihood still be a diseased infested backwater. Also, study the Moguls of India, where the Non-Muslim taxes and the like were deliberately not applied. In Moorish Spain Jews received much better treatment than they ever got during the Christian Inquisition.

    As a Muslim, I can tell you that Islam is fully compatible with individual rghts, democratic government, human rights, and scientific inquiry and progress.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  146. on October 1, 2008 at 4:29 am dougjnn

    Mu’min

    but I have great respect for what they did historically to rebuild Black lives in the ubran core. Malcolm X remains arguably the single best example of achievement of the NOI’s programs.

    Yeah, I have considerable appreciation for what you’re talking about here.

    Also, please study the Medieval period in Europe, read Golden Age of The Moor, Van Sertima, Rutgers U. If it were not for Islam Europe would in all likelihood still be a diseased infested backwater. Also, study the Moguls of India, where the Non-Muslim taxes and the like were deliberately not applied. In Moorish Spain Jews received much better treatment than they ever got during the Christian Inquisition.

    I haven’t read the book you refer to, but I am well aware of various periods in which Islamic scholarship and science exceeded perhaps that of Byzantium, but certainly that of the rather benighted Western Christendom following the fall of Rome, until things began to reverse starting with the Renaissance.

    I used to be more impressed than I am now. I think there was a considerable element of recent historical Jewish shaming of Christians in some of the scholarship (now often abandoned), and that the Hindu or Byzantine origin of many Islamic contributions was often under reported. But in algebra and medicine especially, 9th to 13th century Muslims contributed much to durable world knowledge.

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  147. on October 1, 2008 at 6:55 am KassyK

    Thursday–Not sure if you are still reading this still, but I thought of a few other “classic” gorgeous blondes besides Deneuve and Bergman…that are around today. I don’t mean the Pam-Playboy look. I mean the classic lovely look.

    Charlize Theron
    Elisha Cuthbert
    Rachel McAdams

    I think those girls are strikingly beautiful in that classic, will be always beautiful way many of the brunettes you mentioned are. (You forgot Kate Beckinsale–she is just so beautiful and brunette)

    So while a lot of the great beauties are brunettes–there is a classic look that many of the blondes AND brunettes share (two variations I have noticed–Saucer eyes and delicate features or smaller almond shaped eyes and full perfect lips with delicate features–sometimes both).

    Just throwing it in there. 🙂

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  148. on October 1, 2008 at 2:17 pm Anonymous

    dougjnn, so did Christianity. The “self-hatred” which people on this site attribute to “white male European and American culture” was in its original form an attack on Christian and more specifically Catholic culture, dating back to the eighteenth century, or to the Reformation if you allow for some differences in emphasis.

    The European Middle Ages were not a lengthy period of barbarism and decline. They were a period of innovation and reconstruction, after the real decline of the Dark Ages, which are generally said to have endured from the fall of Rome in the 5th century until the rise of Charlemagne in the 9th century. He established a tentative peace in Europe and made it possible for Christendom to begin to rebuild itself. Advances in trade (early capitalism), shipping, military technology, architecture, and mechanical instruments (e.g. spectacles and clocks), and education (the creation of the first universities) occurred during the later Middle Ages.

    If you insist on referring to the entire period between Rome’s fall and the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century as the “Middle Ages” and use that term interchangeably with “Dark Ages”, the idea that learning and knowledge were in decline for the whole period is even more mistaken.

    Clio

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  149. on October 1, 2008 at 3:11 pm Usually Lurking

    I was under the impression that the Dark Ages were actually, literally, Dark. That much of Europe was getting considerably less sunlight which meant less plant-growth and fewer and smaller animals and less food for the people.

    The cause was supposed to be Ash in the Air from multiple volcanic eruptions (or Sun Spots, or Solar Cycles, or whatever) and that the Middle East and Asia did not suffer as much, or at all. And that it was this physical difference that caused the different places to advance at different rates.

    Has anyone else heard that theory?

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  150. on October 1, 2008 at 4:37 pm Anonymous

    Can’t say that I have, UL, although I suppose it’s possible. Although the label “Dark Ages” was not used by those people who lived through them, so it can’t have been a spontaneous response to contemporary conditions.

    There were a great many reasons for European development to slow down during the Dark Ages, so the volcanic ash hypothesis isn’t really necessary to explain it. Still, I suppose that if you’re right and this has been seriously advanced by some scientists, it might be an additional explanation for the long period of stagnation between the 5th and 9th centuries.

    Clio

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  151. on October 1, 2008 at 10:44 pm chicnoir

    MuMin said:If it were not for Islam Europe would in all likelihood still be a diseased infested backwater

    I brought that up on another site but the people were not amused.
    During that period people were afraid of washing and bathing daily.

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  152. on October 1, 2008 at 10:51 pm chicnoir

    @Kassyk- I wondered why none of the men here have mention Charlize Theron. She is without a doubt a true beauty. As cute as Jessica Alba is, Theron blows her out of the water.

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  153. on October 2, 2008 at 10:39 pm dougjnn

    chicnoir 155–

    I wondered why none of the men here have mention Charlize Theron. She is without a doubt a true beauty. As cute as Jessica Alba is, Theron blows her out of the water.

    Oh I completely agree with all of that. If I’d listed my Hollywood hottest she’d be on the list for sure.

    One thing about Charlize though is that she’s never been at her hottest in her biggest roles. I’m not just talking Monster. Even in The Devil’s Advocate, though she’s hugely hot, it’s not her peak. For one thing she’s hottest as a blonde. Charlize in Woodie Allen’s minor pic Celebrity is breath taking. There she plays a *wait for it* supermodel. That’s exactly what Charlize once was, or on her way to being, before she want exclusively Hollywood.

    The truth is that there’s big time prejudice against super model beautiful white girls, esp. WASPy looking (and Afrikanns is maybe worse) in Hollywood and has been for awhile. The times are long past when Grace Kelly types were actively sought after, particularly if they are American rather than British or Australian.

    January Jones is for example very very pretty / hot. Maybe not quite at Charlize’s breath taking level but up there. She does indeed look a lot like Grace Kelly. Is she quite as beautiful? The first impulse is to say not quite, but a lot of that I think is she doesn’t have quite as much of a regal bearing as Grace Kelly did. Did Grace have that before the Hollywood studio system taught it to her, as a likely candidate for pulling it off?

    January Jones if you don’t know plays the female lead in Mad Men, the runaway critical success two season TV series that dares to be very different. If you haven’t seen it, do. I recommend catching up by downloading the torrents using utorrent.

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  154. on October 3, 2008 at 12:09 am chicnoir

    dougjnn said:The truth is that there’s big time prejudice against super model beautiful white girls, esp. WASPy looking (and Afrikanns is maybe worse) in Hollywood and has been for awhile

    Don’t tell this to SS, he says that men can’t get enough of very pale skinned light haired (?) women. According to SS, that’s why Nicole Kidmen is the number one actress in Hollywood.

    Actually, Nicole Kidman’s movies usually bomb. The only reason she became so respected in Hollywood is because she kept her mouth closed when Tom Cruise up and dumped her*. She played the poor abandoned but dignified wife role all the way to the top of the Hollywood latter.

    Dougjnn, if you think WASPy looking women have it bad, you should see how blond actors are portrayed. I’ve started to pick up on a theme in a number of movies where the blond/blue eyed male lead is evil. Sometimes the B/B actors will have a German or European accent to add to that affect.

    Speaking of 50’s actresses, have you noticed that most of Hollywood’s major actresses of today are very plain looking. They are these tiny bodies with “skin stretch” but their faces are mostly blah. It’s like the casting people said lets forget about the face, we will just cast size 2 and below.

    Speaking of dress size, the one thing that Charlize has over those other girls is her dress size. She wears a size 6-8 and she looks good. She has a thin but healthy appearance. Not the gaunt look that some of her fellow Hollywood actresses have.

    Dougjnn, I don’t get January Jones. I may need to look at Mad Men so that I can see her on film. The blond French newswoman, Melisa Theuriau, is as beautiful as Charlize. I forgot which commenter linked to her first, but that woman is an old school knockout.

    * Tom did it before a few days or weeks before their 10th wedding anniversary. If he had dumped her after the anniversary, I think that he would have owed her half according to CA divorce laws.

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  155. on October 3, 2008 at 1:01 am Mu'Min

    Chic Noir,
    Steve Sailer’s written about the blonde actor as evil deal, as well as why Nicole Kidman is so much in demand as an actress, and he notes that the last big movie she was in was Batman Forever. Look it up, would love to get your feedback on it.

    As for women from the 50s, what about Bettie Page? I thought she was the bomb.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  156. on October 3, 2008 at 1:26 am Elizabeth

    157 chicnoir

    Speaking of dress size, the one thing that Charlize has over those other girls is her dress size. She wears a size 6-8 and she looks good.

    You know, clothing size and age are two of the “markers” of beauty that I just don’t get. In college, I had a roommate who wore a size 10. She had a slender, hourglass figure, she wasn’t even all that curvy, and no one who looked at her would have called her overweight. But she wore the dreaded size 10. Those were the jeans that fit her particular frame the best.

    On the other hand, I had another friend who wore a two. And she…didn’t look it. She was petite, not at all fat, but kind of…dumpy looking, for lack of a better term. She was one of those people who just looked like she was carrying more weight than she actually was, because of the way she was proportioned. She didn’t really have a waist.

    When it comes to slenderness, it really is all about the proportions, not about the weight or the clothing size.

    And age — I really don’t get that. Queen Rania of Jordan is 38, and she’s gorgeous. Audrey Hepburn was 35 when she played Eliza Dolittle in My Fair Lady, and she looked like (and played) a girl of 21. Charlize Theron and Angelina Jolie are both 33. I think they’re all far, far more beautiful than, say, Miley Cyrus (or whoever the teen It Girl of the moment is).

    I knew some girls who were pretty in junior high, but plain by high school. I knew some girls who were pretty in high school, but washed out by their early twenties. I also knew late bloomers who weren’t really much to look at in their teens, but became quite pretty in their twenties. And classic beauties with good skin and slender figures tend to hold onto their beauty for a long time.

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  157. on October 3, 2008 at 12:36 am dougjnn

    chicnoir 157–

    Oh there’s a waspy type that is very pretty but doesn’t appeal to me at all. The ice princess, unthawable division. In fact I used Nicole Kidman as my exhibit 1 of that type. I quite literally feel no attraction for her whatsoever. So much for his invioable female alpha scale. If the lack of sexiness and presence of frostiness is too great, color me cold, whatever number he wants to put on her. Nicole would have to get a 9, wouldn’t she?

    Grace Kelly is subject to that critique or suspicion for sure. I like her because I don’t buy unthawable. I feel lots of heat in there. Same with January Jones, down a notch. Don’t get me wrong, she’s not as hot as Charlize, or Angelina Jolie, who being half Italian everyone can sign up for heat wise. (While acknowledging the very likely, and much rumored, severe head case issues. Hey, maybe not with Brad Pitt. He may just fill her up enough, if you know what I mean.)

    BTW, if you want to see Angelina at her most beathtaking, netflix her in Gia. (It’s only been out on DVD for a little while, amazingly, but it’s made the cable rounds forever.) Again, a major hottie playing a supermodel, in that case a heroin supermodel. Abandoned heat. Save me.

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  158. on October 3, 2008 at 2:16 pm leena

    A.a little makeup DOES go a LONG way.
    B.i dare you to guess my age too btw.

    .L

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  159. on October 3, 2008 at 2:25 pm leena

    oh… i meant to add this:

    -while i’m here “lurking” from time to time… not bothering to comment, i love these types of discussions way too much.. so i felt like a comment was due.

    all hip ratio, makeup, clothing, attitude, etc aside. i’ve said it before, and i’ll say it again; the times i get hit on the most, are the times when i wear NO makeup, NO “clubby gear” -but simply a plain t-shirt, jeans, hair back in a pony tail in contrast to the rest of the girls who are pruned and primped to the best of their abilities.

    word!

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  160. on October 3, 2008 at 2:33 pm Mu'Min

    Hi Leena,
    Just hopped over to Photbucket and took a look; you are right, makeup does indeed make all the difference in the world.

    You looked very nice.

    Glad to meet ya!

    Salaam
    Mu

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  161. on October 3, 2008 at 2:59 pm Mu'Min

    Leena
    Just saw your other comment. I too have heard of women who report the same things, ie, they could have rollers in their hair and bunny slippers on and still get hit on by the fellas. *shrugs* I have no idea what that’s all about, other than to say that maybe you and these other gals I know just have straight raw sexual appeal?

    Salaam
    Mu

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  162. on October 3, 2008 at 3:15 pm Markku

    leena:

    A.a little makeup DOES go a LONG way.

    Well, I didn’t find such a drastic difference between the two photos.

    Kuvien perusteella arvioisin ikäsi olevan 27.

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  163. on October 3, 2008 at 3:20 pm Markku

    leena:

    all hip ratio, makeup, clothing, attitude, etc aside. i’ve said it before, and i’ll say it again; the times i get hit on the most, are the times when i wear NO makeup, NO “clubby gear” -but simply a plain t-shirt, jeans, hair back in a pony tail in contrast to the rest of the girls who are pruned and primped to the best of their abilities.

    That’s because you’re pretty enough to be somewhat intimidating to betas when you’ve done your best to look good. The plain look signals approachability. I suppose it works the other way around for plain girls.

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  164. on October 3, 2008 at 3:21 pm Usually Lurking

    According to SS, that’s why Nicole Kidmen is the number one actress in Hollywood.

    No, that is not what he said. He did not say that Men are attracted to her very pale skin, but that having a lead actress being as dark or darker than the lead actor is simply weird. We prefer to have, and see, women who are at least a little lighter in skin tone than men.

    So Kidman, with her pale skin, will look lighter than almost any leading White Male actor. Whereas, Jessica Alba might look a little weird with, say, Gary Busey (if he were her age).

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  165. on October 3, 2008 at 3:24 pm leena

    ei ma olen vanem 😉
    kiitos

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  166. on October 3, 2008 at 3:29 pm Usually Lurking

    You know, clothing size and age are two of the “markers” of beauty that I just don’t get. In college, I had a roommate who wore a size 10. She had a slender, hourglass figure, she wasn’t even all that curvy, and no one who looked at her would have called her overweight. But she wore the dreaded size 10.

    Elizabeth, I remember reading a while back that there was some interest in moving Womens clothing sizes towards a more accurate system, akin to what Men have (i.e. You have a 34″ Waist, with a 42 Arm and a 16 Neck, etc.), but that they were afraid of how women would react.

    Many have noted that certain sizes in America are fatter than they are in Europe and that these sizes also vary greatly from brand to brand. This allows women to find a designer that has a size 8 that fits them, even though they are overweight.

    The hot girls do not mind too much because, 1.) they are hot and 2.) they can say to their fat friends, “well, I also wear a size 10, so, you know, it just depends”.

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  167. on October 3, 2008 at 3:43 pm Elizabeth

    169 Usually Working

    Elizabeth, I remember reading a while back that there was some interest in moving Womens clothing sizes towards a more accurate system, akin to what Men have (i.e. You have a 34″ Waist, with a 42 Arm and a 16 Neck, etc.), but that they were afraid of how women would react.

    Ugh. I wish they would do this. It’d make finding clothes that fit so much easier.

    This allows women to find a designer that has a size 8 that fits them, even though they are overweight.

    Ha. This reminds me of an old Dave Barry column. He wrote that he was going to open up a store called the “Size 2 Store,” where everything was labeled as Size 2, because that’s what women wanted to wear. 🙂

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  168. on October 3, 2008 at 3:43 pm Elizabeth

    170 Elizabeth

    Usually Working

    Um. I think that’s some kind of Freudian slip.

    That should be Usually Lurking, of course. 🙂

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  169. on October 3, 2008 at 4:00 pm Mu'Min

    UL,
    Not sure if you were responding to me wrt Sailer and his take on white blonde actors and Nicole Kidman or not, but anyway…

    Why do you think we as a human race are so attracted to light-skinned/fair/pale women? Just want to get your take. Thanks.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  170. on October 3, 2008 at 5:19 pm Usually Lurking

    Actually, I was responding to Chic Noir.

    The theory that I had heard is that, within each race, women are slightly lighter in skin tone than the men. They are literally the Fairer Sex.

    Sailer had a link to the book that talked about this. Exactly why men tend to be slightly darker than their sisters, I don’t remember, but, it would explain why we go for lighter skinned girls.

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  171. on October 3, 2008 at 6:01 pm Mu'Min

    UL,
    Thanks for the explainer. As you may well know, this is a very sensitive issue in the Black community. Even when presented w/the facts, many Black women still feel some kind of way, understandable given American history in this regard.

    Oh, and my bad.;)

    Salaam
    Mu

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  172. on October 3, 2008 at 6:10 pm dougjnn

    chicnoir 154 —

    If it were not for Islam Europe would in all likelihood still be a diseased infested backwater

    Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

    The Catholic West did learn a lot of it’s Greco-Roman hertiage from scholars who had been in Islamac Andalusia, Spain. However, that was a matter of what sources got to them first and with greatest impact. There were competing routes available, once the West became open to learning secular, and somewhat Christian chatechism threateing classical knowledge. (I.e. banned or anyway un approved books.)

    However, another major source of learning was via the sea trading towns of Italy, lead by Venice but including Genoa and others. There the contacts were yes with Egypt and Syria (modern day Lebanon and Israel), but they were also with Byzantium, aka the Eastern Roman Empire, which was of course Orthodox Christian. The Greco Roman tradition was more or less fully preserved within Byzantium and it was heavily transmitted to Italians, especially in Byzantium’s waning days in the 15th century, when many Greek scholars from there sought refuge and employment in Italy during the height of the Renaissance.

    It’s perfectly true that this hasn’t been much emphasized, but it’s true.

    It was a fashion among intellectuals during the post WWII period and before the late more bitter conflicts with Islam to build up the reputation of Islam in the West including esp. Britain and America. It’s not that there isn’t a lot of truth to it, or that Islamic original contributions in mathematics, especially algebra, and medicine were not outstanding and important, they were.

    But for it to be possible for anyone to write the sentence you did above with any degree of seriousness shows just how overboard this quasi propaganda effort went.

    I repeat. The sentence quoted above is utterly wrong. The Renaissance would have happened if Islam had never arisen.

    I’m also sick and tired of whitewashing some key facts because of this modern effort by the West to lean over way far backwards for everyone else. If there is any major religion on earth that is a warrior, conquest religion to it’s core and as reflected and generated in it’s central stories (or myths) it is Islam, and the primary peoples it conquered in those stories, following the earliest beginnings among their own, were Christians. Islam 1) rose to greatness by conquering Christian lands, primarily Byzantian/Eastern Roman Empire lands in Egypt, Syria and North Africa, and including every inch of land that Muslims were so outraged that Christians had the gaul to reconquor in their Crusades, which to this day Muslim children are taught were one of the signal greatest acts of outrage and oppressive aggression in history; and 2) has always been in either conflict or essentially hostile and predatory standoff with Christianity since it’s earliest post Mohammed inception. Whenever Islam had the upper hand they sought to conquer parts of Europe, or at sea take Europeans as slaves. There was nothing one way about later Christian overmatching and then colonizing of Muslim territories following the defeat of the Ottomans in WWII.

    Having said all that by way of corrective to leftist history, sure, lets get along. Sounds good to me.

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  173. on October 3, 2008 at 6:18 pm Usually Lurking

    Even when presented w/the facts, many Black women still feel some kind of way, understandable given American history in this regard.

    My guess is that Black Women are not reacting to anything particularly American. Similar “Color Consciousness” is also seen in places like Britain and the Caribbean. Also, Brasil is often painted as some kind of Multi-Cultural wonderland where no one cares about race, but, we still see light skinned people at the top and dark skinned people at the bottom.

    And with many a dark-skinned man preferring lighter skinned women.

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  174. on October 3, 2008 at 6:34 pm PatrickH

    dougjnn 176:

    What you said. Although, strictly speaking, Islam did contribute to the Renaissance…by slowly annexing then conquering the Byzantine Empire, the Turks drove many scholars west, scholars who brought with them much in the way of Greek knowledge. I don’t think this sense is what Mu and chic meant, though. 🙂

    And Islam itself is overrated, even as a civilization in itself. By which I mean that the contribution of the Sassanid Persians to “Islamic” civilization has been consistently underrated.

    The civilizing influence of Islam has not been great, and of course needs to be balanced against what it destroyed (Library of Alexandria anyone?).

    And besides, what is being revealed when people have to go back to 700+ years ago to get to a point when Islam was contributing to Western advancement? I’m an old wizened geezer, but even I don’t remember back that far. And I invented fire!

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  175. on October 3, 2008 at 5:41 pm editor

    leena:
    A.a little makeup DOES go a LONG way.

    actually, the makeup has added 1 point to your looks.
    this is perfectly in line with my handy chart.

    B.i dare you to guess my age too btw.

    45? 😉

    you’re not bad looking.

    LikeLike


  176. on October 3, 2008 at 10:21 pm chicnoir

    Usually Lurking, did you notice that I put a question mark behind her hair color.

    He did not say that Men are attracted to her very pale skin, but that having a lead actress being as dark or darker than the lead actor is simply weird

    Really? How can that we weird? I am sure everyone here has seen a man with a darker wife/girlfriend besides Obama. I’ve seen a number of white men with dark skinned Asian women like Michelle Malk>in.

    I’ve seen Jessica Alba matched with men who have lighter skin. Didn’t make a difference to me as long as the guy was as attractive as she is.

    Many have noted that certain sizes in America are fatter than they are in Europe and that these sizes also vary greatly from brand to brand. This allows women to find a designer that has a size 8 that fits them, even though they are overweight

    American designers don’t use a standard system for their sizing. American designers use a fit model that is usually a size 6 or what will be a size 6 in their clothing. Designers who sell a lot in Japan and now China tend to cut their clothing much smaller than designers who don’t. In addition, designers have an idea of who their ideal customer is and what she looks like. Therefore, a size six for a Donna Karen dress will be a bit larger than the equivalent size 6 in Prada. Low-end retailers like Old Navy and Gap also cut their clothing much larger than high-end designers. A woman who wears a zero from the Gap will be something like a 6-8 in Prada.

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  177. on October 3, 2008 at 10:26 pm chicnoir

    dougjnn
    chicnoir 154 –

    If it were not for Islam Europe would in all likelihood still be a diseased infested backwater

    That’s not my quote.
    Mu wrote that.

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  178. on October 3, 2008 at 10:29 pm chicnoir

    leena- you look to be about 25 but since you told us to guess, I would venture and say 40 because most people ask you to guess their age only when they look much younger than their true age.

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  179. on October 3, 2008 at 11:35 pm dougjnn

    181 Chicnoir —

    Umm. Well you did quote him approvingly. But ok.

    Mu?

    LikeLike


  180. on October 4, 2008 at 12:00 am Mu'Min

    UL 177,
    What you noted was the effects of Racism in the aforementioned areas, which, I think, needs to be teased out of or away from the Nicole Kidman issue, that of fair skinned women. I think, and what I was trying to say was, that often these two issues are conflated.

    Even among Black folk it is fairly easy to see that the women tend to be lighter than the men. Again, racist and racial histories have impacted heavily on this issue and have complicated things a good bit more than they need to be.

    Salaam
    Mu

    LikeLike


  181. on October 4, 2008 at 12:09 am Mu'Min

    Doug, Chic, Pat,
    Yea, I saw the quote of mine, too. OK.

    My point is merely that Islam, much maligned in our time in some quarters, has nevertheless and often much to the chagrin of many of my erstwhile peers on the Right, HAS indeed contributed something to the world of real merit and value. That in no way takes away from the very real problems that beset the Islamic and rest of the world. If anything, Islam’s past may act as a beacon to its future.

    Now, we can go round and round till we’re blue in the face, arguing over which view of the Islamic world and its history is correct or not and so on. Or, we can seek to take the best of Islam and bring that forward. The single biggest problem plauging the Islamic world in our time is the fact that there’s no real credible rhetorical challenge to the radicals, something that would be anathema in the Islamic world of old-the very same world, ironically and laughably, the radicals claim to wish to recreate!

    D’Souza makes a powerful point, that we can either seek to get the whole of the Islamic world on our side, or, we can keep up this ginning up of real or perceived misdeeds on their part, to what good end I know not. It seems that the former is a far better course, but I guess I, and D’Souza, who actually lived among many, many, Muslims all his early life, could be wrong.

    Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu

    LikeLike


  182. on October 4, 2008 at 1:03 am chicnoir

    dougjnn
    181 Chicnoir –

    Umm. Well you did quote him approvingly. But ok.

    Mu?

    not quite.

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  183. on October 4, 2008 at 1:28 am dougjnn

    185 Mu’min —

    The single biggest problem plauging the Islamic world in our time is the fact that there’s no real credible rhetorical challenge to the radicals, something that would be anathema in the Islamic world of old-the very same world, ironically and laughably, the radicals claim to wish to recreate!

    Yes. You say it as inside (albeit in a sort of offshoot or offbeat side of Islam) and I am not, but I’ve seen that before and it rings true. This is a truly fundamental problem. It’s not impossible of solution, but it’s difficult.

    I am convinced that toughness rather than weakness towards resurgent radical and political Islam is the West’s necessary course. Yes I want peace rather than conflict, much less internal conflict, but I don’t think PC cow towing is the way to go.

    I think those Danish cartoons not only should have been printed as they were, but that the Western media and intellectual establishment should have lined up in STRONG and pretty much unqualified support of it, and mocked, yes mocked, Muslim outrage — as ezpressed in the West.

    Or else the Euro Muslims can go home to less culturally challenging territory.

    Now having said that, I THEN think the Western stance should be soothing and non hostile.

    First strength unconfused by PC idiot guilt or appeasement; then ample indication that though in our house it’s our rules, we are not out to get you. But you do have to play by our rules in our public spaces. which include our newspapers.

    Over to you.

    LikeLike


  184. on October 3, 2008 at 9:55 pm leena

    i assume you’re saying i’m an “8”
    -i’m perfectly fine with that. 😉

    LikeLike


  185. on October 4, 2008 at 4:06 am Elizabeth

    185 Mu’Min

    My point is merely that Islam, much maligned in our time in some quarters, has nevertheless and often much to the chagrin of many of my erstwhile peers on the Right, HAS indeed contributed something to the world of real merit and value.

    Among other things, Arabian Nights, one of my very favorite collections of stories. 🙂

    The single biggest problem plauging the Islamic world in our time is the fact that there’s no real credible rhetorical challenge to the radicals, something that would be anathema in the Islamic world of old-the very same world, ironically and laughably, the radicals claim to wish to recreate!

    I don’t think the problem is so much doubt about what Islamic civilization has contributed in the past (a lot) as doubt about what Islamic civilization is today. Faiths, like nations, have their high points and low points, and I wouldn’t want Christianity to be judged by the Inquisition — but the fact is, it happened, it was done in Christianity’s name, regardless of whether it was in accord with Christianity’s tenets, and the so-called faithful let it happen. That doesn’t cast a shadow on Christianity for all time, but it certainly casts a shadow on the Christians of that particular time period.

    I don’t think Islam is bad or worthless, or that Muslims are all violent, terrible people. I think what gives some people pause is that there’s not more outrage among Muslims for the acts that are being committed in their religion’s name, whether that’s 9/11 or the murder of Theo Van Gogh or the outcry against the Danish cartoons or the reprehensible persecution of Maclean’s Magazine in Canada. Silence implies tacit support, or at least indifference, as does the neverending chorus of “Yes, buts” — “Well, yes, that was wrong, but look what America has done! They deserve it!” B.S. that people, individual people, deserve to die for the crime of going to work on a sunny Tuesday morning. B.S. to that — and to hell, to hell, with anyone who believes that they deserved to die.

    So I admit — I’d feel far less leery about the Middle East, and far more hopeful of peace, if more Muslims stood up and said, loudly and clearly, “Not in our name.” If they shouted down the idiots who whine about a bunch of stupid cartoons. If they ruthlessly shamed anyone who had terrorist sympathies or anyone who engaged in the vomit-inducing game of “Yes, but.” If they acknowledged that America is not responsible for everything that goes wrong in their lives or the world. If, for every one fool who shouted “Death to Israel, Death to the Great Satan!”, there were ten of his co-religionists who openly called him a fool and a scumbag and told him to grow up, grow a brain, and join the real world.

    When someone presumes to speak for your group, others will tend to take him at face value unless there’s someone to contest him. Whether it’s fair or not, that’s a fact of life. And while there are plenty of brave, principled Muslims who are speaking out against the thugs, they’re isolated voices. The masses aren’t joining them. Maybe it’s because they’re scared, maybe it’s because they agree with Al Qaeda and Mahmoud I’m-A-Nut-Job or whatever the idiotic president of Iran’s name is, maybe it’s because they’re too absorbed in their own lives to care much one way or the other — the fact is, they are silent, others are speaking, others claim to speak for them, and they’re letting it happen. And if they really don’t want those people speaking on behalf of their religion and defining what it’s about, they need to start speaking up, too.

    That means the people in the actual Middle East. The problem with Western intellectuals who happen to be Muslim doing it is, well, you’re us. Your national identity and your religious identity co-exist. You might be able to speak on behalf of Muslims like you — Muslims who are also American, and see no conflict in the identities, who do not even see them as separate identities, but just part of what you are. But not on behalf of all Muslims all over the world. The rhetorical challenge has to come from within the “Muslim world”, not from without; otherwise, it’s not going to be persuasive. They’ve got to start speaking for themselves. And until that happens, I think a lot of distrust — and outright hostility — will remain.

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  186. on October 4, 2008 at 4:59 am Elizabeth

    180 Chic Noir

    I’ve seen Jessica Alba matched with men who have lighter skin. Didn’t make a difference to me as long as the guy was as attractive as she is.

    Chic Noir, for what it’s worth, I think dark skin is beautiful. One of the best-looking girls in my high school class was dark-skinned, and she never had any trouble getting lighter-skinned guys to drool over her. I don’t doubt that some people have a preference for lighter skin on women, but I don’t think everyone does. I think it might just be one of those things, the way some people prefer blonde hair and some people prefer dark hair, some people prefer small and petite and some people prefer tall and statuesque. Just a matter of taste.

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  187. on October 4, 2008 at 5:05 am Elizabeth

    Ugh, posted before I was done.

    To speculate on why some men might prefer lighter skin on women: I’d hazard a guess that those are men who prefer more frail, delicate-looking women. There’s something about darker skin that seems to indicate robust health (even if the person isn’t actually healthy). Whereas we tend to equate paleness with delicacy — a pale person often looks like someone who needs to be taken care of, protected. That could appeal to strong, provider-type men who want a very feminine woman to be protective of.

    Of course, it’d rather go against the idea of finding a fertile, healthy mate, so who knows.

    LikeLike


  188. on October 4, 2008 at 9:46 am Mu'Min

    Doug, Elizabeth,
    It is times like these, that, interestingly enough, light of our recent discussions regarding great men-and women-of history, that I’m reminded of the Power of One.

    I am but one man, one Muslim, and yes, Elizabeth, I am not on the “inside”-I’m not an Arab, never lived in the Middle East, have yet to make the Haaj even. I should hope that changes at some point. And yes, its true, my exposure to Western ideas have indeliably shaped who I am. My take on Islam is decidedly different than my brethren overseas.

    But I think Muslims like me, can offer something very significant to the debate. And part of the huge, huge problem wrt “the Islamic problem” is just that-theres no real debate.

    I thought the cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad were disgusting. I abhored them. But I was even more disgusted by the response by the Islamic world. My personal response, in full accord w/a lifetime being rooted in the ideals of Free Speech and Association, was to write editorials explaining why I took issue w/the cartoons, and, if necessary, simply stop underwriting those media outlets who persisted in publishing them. I would even consider joining an organized effort in this regard. These are measures that are universally recognized throughout the West, and in many places outside of it.

    But I would never, ever, join a Mob of bloodthirsty folk who damage federal property, or private property, and certainly wouldn’t take part in the wanton murder of others, simply because I disagree, vociferously I might add, over something which they may have said or depicted.

    As an African American, I can raise the same question of my White brothers and sisters-when so many Black men were hanging from trees, why so much silence? Yes, the Civil War was highly significant, but we also had a century of out and out Jim Crow, often w/the real threat of violence to back it up. And none of it could’ve happened without the tacit approval of the whole of America, comprised of mainly White people.

    I don’t mention this to justify or excuse the seeming, and, I think on some levels, real inaction/indifference in the Islamic world in relation to the radicals in their midst. I do think, like a lot of Whites, there is fear, but I also think there is indifference, and yes, some real misplaced animus, too.

    If we’ve learned anything from MLK’s example, its that working to win hearts and mins is a whole lot tougher than merely wiping the enemy out-and make no mistake here, and I want Doug to clearly understand me on this point, I am not a pacifist, and it is my view that the incorrigible radicals need to be crushed w/an iron fist-but at some point, we have to win over folks through persuasion.

    And people like me have to help.

    So many excellent chances for real debate on the state of Islam has come and gone, both internally and externally. Questions like, why happened to the Islamic world over the past say, 500 years, have fallen by the wayside.

    I am only one man, one Muslim, I have only one light to shine. But if all I can do, in this of all places, is to give witness to the fact that not all Muslims agree w/foul forces like Al-Qaeda, or wrongheaded ideas like the killing of Van Gogh, then maybe that might mean something afterall.

    It is a start.

    Salaam
    Mu

    LikeLike


  189. on October 4, 2008 at 8:04 pm Usually Lurking

    Didn’t make a difference to me

    Oh, ok, well that should end it then.

    LikeLike


  190. on October 4, 2008 at 8:11 pm Usually Lurking

    …an explanation has been offered by physical anthropologist Peter Frost of Université Laval in Quebec… From Peter Frost, “…there does exist a perceptible dissimilarity in pigmentation between men and women. Male skin has more melanin and hemoglobin than does female skin, i.e., men are browner and ruddier; women, paler.”

    LikeLike


  191. on October 5, 2008 at 5:29 pm Yancey Ward

    Man, those are big eyes! Makes you want to slap the back of her head just to see what happens.

    LikeLike


  192. on October 5, 2008 at 6:29 pm DoJ

    188 Elizabeth

    I’d feel far less leery about the Middle East, and far more hopeful of peace, if more Muslims stood up and said, loudly and clearly, “Not in our name.”

    I totally agree with this sentiment. The tough question is, how do we create an environment where this outcome is realistically possible? I see a few barriers right now:

    (i) Those with untenable attitudes are artificially shielded from the rightful consequences. This strikes me as similar to the “sellout” problem for African Americans, actually. What welfare does in America, oil money does in the Middle East on a larger scale. The culture is freed from the constraint of supporting a broad-based competitive economy. Freed from having to acknowledge the reality of how much America has gotten right, and how small its errors have been in comparison.

    (ii) Limited dissemination of information and freedom of speech. As long as we are dependent on Middle East oil, we have an unholy strategic decision to make between allowing backward regimes to keep controlling information flows so they can supply oil more reliably, or compelling them under threat of military force to liberalize information flows (which is, at least in the short term, destabilizing). It doesn’t help that every other developed country cares about oil too, so they will all tend to favor regime stability over what’s actually better for the Arabs in the long run.

    The Arab on the street may not yet have enough information to conclude for him/herself that “Not in our name” is the right thing to say.

    (iii) Lack of vision of what a truly modernized and successful, but still Muslim, Middle East would look like. Orson Scott Card attempts this later in his Ender’s Shadow quartet, but so far he’s pretty lonely in this. And Dubai is really quite amazing, but I’m afraid that it’s more laissez-faire than most Muslims actually want.

    It’s great when we can just pull a Commodore Perry and everything else takes care of itself. But as is, Islamic culture is intrinsically less open to change than Japanese culture, and on top of that, all that oil in the ground provides the wrong incentives. We’ve got our work cut out for us, just bringing things to the point so that a “Not in our name” movement could survive at all.

    But it is not beyond our capabilities, if we put our minds to it. Far from it.

    LikeLike


  193. on October 5, 2008 at 11:31 pm Elizabeth

    191 Mu’Min

    It is times like these, that, interestingly enough, light of our recent discussions regarding great men-and women-of history, that I’m reminded of the Power of One.

    Mu’Min, I’m not saying I don’t believe in the Power of One — I do believe individuals can make a difference, and I applaud your own efforts to make a change.

    But it usually does take more than one, and I do think you’re more likely to inspire others who are similar to you than the people who live in vastly different countries. It’s not impossible, of course, for people over there to take inspiration from you and people like you. I just think a lot is going to have to change before that happens.

    As an African American, I can raise the same question of my White brothers and sisters-when so many Black men were hanging from trees, why so much silence? Yes, the Civil War was highly significant, but we also had a century of out and out Jim Crow, often w/the real threat of violence to back it up. And none of it could’ve happened without the tacit approval of the whole of America, comprised of mainly White people.

    This is true. Which is why it’s important for people to stand up, even when the comfortable thing to do is avert your eyes and not rock the boat.

    The reason for the silence, quite honestly, is because they cared more about their own comfort than for other people’s lives. And I think the same is true today. That doesn’t mean I think we’re all evil. But I do think we’re all human, and selfish, and for most of us to get involved in something, we have to feel like we have a personal stake in it.

    LikeLike


  194. on October 5, 2008 at 11:37 pm Elizabeth

    195 DoJ

    The tough question is, how do we create an environment where this outcome is realistically possible?

    It’d be nice if we know how. It’d be nice if we could do it. But I’m rather certain that they’re going to have to be the ones to create that environment, not us. Actively trying to change other people’s countries hasn’t really worked out well for us. And I think a large part of that is because you can’t really fight for people who won’t fight for themselves and who don’t necessarily believe in what you’re fighting for.

    Now, getting off of Middle Eastern fuel? That would be fantastic, and, I think, would certainly foster an environment where change was necessary. But we’re going to have to cure our own addictions, or come up with a replacement addiction, before we can do that. 🙂

    LikeLike


  195. on October 6, 2008 at 1:21 am DoJ

    197 Elizabeth

    It’d be nice if we know how. It’d be nice if we could do it. But I’m rather certain that they’re going to have to be the ones to create that environment, not us. Actively trying to change other people’s countries hasn’t really worked out well for us. And I think a large part of that is because you can’t really fight for people who won’t fight for themselves and who don’t necessarily believe in what you’re fighting for.

    Well, yes. For the most part, I’m just arguing for removing the forces that give other countries an incentive to hold the Middle East back. And, okay, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Orson Scott Card, since you’re right that they need to come up with their own dreams and work toward them, not be force-fed our idea of what their dreams should be.

    Now, getting off of Middle Eastern fuel? That would be fantastic, and, I think, would certainly foster an environment where change was necessary. But we’re going to have to cure our own addictions, or come up with a replacement addiction, before we can do that. 🙂

    And it’s not actually enough for us to cure our own addiction; our cure needs to work for the rest of the world. Otherwise China, for one, will still have an incentive to keep the oil flowing, and the will and ability to make it happen via morally questionable means (look at what’s going on in Africa right now).

    But we can start on the right path by cleaning the bullshit out of our own energy policy. More nuclear and solar. Focus alternative energy research on stuff that genuinely has the potential to solve our problem, instead of worthless gimmicks like ethanol (f*** Iowa’s early presidential primary, and the candidates who pander to it in obnoxious ways). No more tolerance for fuzzy thinking on the matter in the media; this is very serious business.

    LikeLike


  196. on January 19, 2009 at 2:35 am Tood

    Is that actually a person, or a plastic mannequin?

    She/he looks less like a human than the Japanese fembot in the other article.

    LikeLike


  197. on April 15, 2009 at 9:49 am samba

    lol u make me laugh! how deluded! ha ha runway models are still hotter than 80% of other women my arse! ha ha! and vic secret models- yes some men like, many actually think they are too thin. and no, they dont sell underwear to men, unless they are trannies they are selling it to women. Women on average have a skinnier and very different ideal of body measurements than men actually prefer. It’s well noted in psychology that women think that men prefer runway and victorias secret types (and dont forget the immense amount of push ups and strapping boobs up that they use, plus TONNES of airbrushing in catalogues), but in reality, many more men prefer the curvier more hour glass shaped woman with curvier hips and bum and thighs and real boobs.

    Thats really funny that you honestly think these models are hand picked out of everyone in the world to make a standard for the ‘perfect’ beauties. It’s all about the sales, and the more unnattainable the media makes these images, the more products they are going to sell including clothes, makeup, skin care, beauty enhancement, tanners, diet pills, cellulite treatments, protein treatments, diet books, and plastic surgery! oh, and just to make those images that much more unnattainable that even the models themselves cant add up to, on top of all the makeup they airbrush the life out of them and turn them into a ‘perfectly’ different person. completely unrecognisable. But hey, at least its working for the ones with the lower IQ and self esteem ;o) Bloody smart people they are in that godly media business!

    LikeLike


  198. on November 15, 2009 at 11:46 am b

    i actually think she’s very beautiful. no one is ugly, only personalities are, and judging so harshly can only lead me to believe that one has a chip on their shoulder.

    LikeLike


  199. on April 21, 2010 at 2:19 am Megan

    Finally. A blog by Ryan the Temp. Just what I was (not) looking for. Back to google.

    LikeLike


  200. on April 9, 2011 at 8:00 pm R

    Wow, this is beyond sad. I can’t believe someone actually made up chart in relation to a woman’s ‘rating’.

    LikeLike



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