I was recently out with some old friends at a club. One of the guys, smart but beta-ish, was standing holding his drink. I walked over and told him I would position his stance so that girls would suddenly find him irresistible and guys would think he was cool. I moved his legs and feet about shoulder width apart, one foot pointed at a jaunty angle, and told him to rest most of his body weight on his left leg. Then I had him hold his drink down by his hip.
The change was instantaneous. Our group of mixed girls and guys stepped back to take a look at my friend with his new and improved stance. They were astonished at the difference it made. One girl even muttered “Wow” under her breath. The guys nodded their heads and were impressed. My friend was a man they had known for years — they were comfortable with his predictable and reassuring beta presence — so the conspicuous alpha vibe the new stance projected had everyone amazed and slightly disturbed.
With a simple adjustment of his legs and feet my friend had gone from an invisible beta to an intriguing figure in the middle of the crowd. More girls would now be open to his approach.
This alpha stance is not random. It’s a classical pose called contrapposto that Michelangelo sculpted for his masterpiece David. It suggests a relaxed and vulnerable appearance, exactly the sort of self-possessed mental state an alpha male would convey through his body language. I believe girls are hardwired deep in their electric hams to be sexually drawn to a man standing contrapposto.
Most people find it unsettling that such a banal detail like foot positioning could trigger an attraction reflex in women, but the noble mysteries of human nature are only made so by our insistence. For those with the eyes to see, reality constantly reminds us we are not poetically transcendent creatures. We are animals.
Movement reeducation techniques like Alexander and Feldenkrais have been useful to me in reprogramming ingrained postural habits. There is also some overlap with the alpha/beta body language tips you post here.
Every beta should familiarize himself with Feldenkrais’ concept of “cross motivation.”
For those with the eyes to see, reality constantly reminds us we are not poetically transcendent creatures. We are animals.
Clio wept.
P.S. that shirt style is so last year
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Actually contrapposto is a little different, with weight distributed exactly evenly between both legs. It is the only way that sculptors could position a human form so that the marble would be free-standing, without any supports.
Positioning the majority of your weight on one leg is a vulnerable position because it would be easy to tip you over. This is alpha because it communicates you are not worried about that happening.
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suggests a relaxed and vulnerable appearance,
David was braced for killing that Big Philistine Guy. He was frowning intensely, focused on the task at hand. He was leading with his off hand, like a boxer, or more aptly, a pitcher about to wind up and throw a fastball…right at Goliath’s head.
David was in a fighting pose, relaxed only insofar as needed in preparation for the cast, and vulnerable not at all, not even in appearance.
To be fair, the statue was apparently intended to be seen head on. Its sideways view gives a somewhat misleading impression.
And he did have that luxurious male GNP, eh Peter?
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This alpha stance is not random. It’s a classical pose called contrapposto that Michelangelo sculpted for his masterpiece David.
Your friend would really have attracted attention if he’d gone the full David-imitation route and stood there with his equipment hanging out.
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And he did have that luxurious male GNP, eh Peter?
Hideously, some men are taking a cue from women and going the Bald Eagle route themselves.
Peter
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This is helpful. Contrapposto is not too dissimilar from the stance that we use in Muay Thai (Thai kickboxing), although the rear foot goes a little bit further back with the latter. It would be good to practice both.
I despise my posture. I still have a very difficult time keeping my hands down at my side when socializing, rather than crossing them in front of my chest or positioning them on my waste.
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Obviously, in Muay Thai though, you don’t want to put all your weight on your front leg.
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60% of the time, it works every time.
Now that’s a stat even Agnostic can get behind!
As Yogi Berra once said, “Ninety per cent of the game is half mental.”
Yep.
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This stance is of the utmost importance. It allows you to quickly shift weight and allows you to lean back and away from the girl, thus showing your higher quality status. The ability to switch which leg you prefer to balance your weight on, allows you to reposition and create the aura you should be looking for. Always be the center of attention, and you want to be able to bounce between conversations within a group in a very simple and non trying sort of way.
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Reading this I can’t help but feel like that the term “alpha” has been so diluted that it is almost meaningless perhaps because it is frequently conflated with plain masculinity which I think is separate. Being masculine doesn’t necessarily confer a person with alpha status. I think you had defined alpha as a man with the ability to attract, bed, and sustain relationships with many beautiful women (I won’t address female alphas here). I think this is fair shot at a modern definition but I can’t help but think it’s only one attribute of true alphas. Alphas possess a lot of social skill not just with women but men, possessing high status among them as well. In fact is this not the biological definition of an alpha whereby males leveraged that high status to have access to mates thus perpetuating their genes? Yet somehow, we have divorced the definition to serve modern social realities and the modern man’s lack of masculinity. I believe true alphas are far rarer than we care to imagine, that’s why people on this site struggle with whether a teacher can be more alpha than a lawyer and vice versa. However, we’ve made the alpha designation far too accessible so much so that all you have to do is stand a certain way to communicate that. Have we become so androgynous that if we display a few masculine traits and perhaps one alpha trait, we are instantly conferred with alpha status?
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One totally Beta posture is the crossed-arms stance. It supposedly sends an image of resolute courage and determination – you’ll see it a lot in ads for crooked personal-injury lawyers – but in fact makes one look like a total dork.
Peter
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What about the arms akimbo stance? Looking at old movies and pictures and Charles Atlas ads it seems like this stance was once considered manly, but do it now and you look like a tool.
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Another great thing to try regarding posture is to raise your arms as if to grab something above your head while keeping your chin straight, and then letting them fall to your sides. Do this in front of a mirror. The effect is striking.
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we are not poetically transcendent creatures. We are animals.
we’re both, actually.
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we are not poetically transcendent creatures. We are animals.
we’re both, actually.
Uhm, no. We’re just animals, actually.
Bipedal primates, to be precise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
Again, if anyone of you can help me find any hard evidence that science misses out on something fundamental (like transcendence), let me know and I’ll share the $1M Nobel prize with you…
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The “glass by your hip” tip has been one of the most helpful I’ve read here. For posture, we’re always told how to stand, even if we foolishly ignore it. But no one ever scolded us to “hold your drink down by your hip!”
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What about the arms akimbo stance? Looking at old movies and pictures and Charles Atlas ads it seems like this stance was once considered manly, but do it now and you look like a tool.
Arms akimbo has two drawbacks. Not only does it look unnatural and awkward in its own right, but it’s a little too close for comfort to the gorilla-arms pose favored by douche bags with imaginary lats syndrome.
Peter
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What about Wranglers and Lees?
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20 Clio:
What I do go on about here is that we’re also social creatures influenced by – influence, by other people, by friends and status, which all have animal determinants in them by the way.
Precisely. That’s the rub. Since culture is not much more than the interaction of genetics + geography, it still reduces to our animal nature in the final analysis. What people call “culture” is really just different ways of doing the same thing.
and poetically transcendent too, thank you #18
I’ll have you know one of the songs I perform on guitar is Van Morrison’s “I’ll Be Your Lover, Too”
I’ll be sure to think of you next time I play it.
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21 Slick Rick:
What about Wranglers and Lees?
*puke*
Maybe if you live in the midwest.
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@ 24 TC –
That was just a tester to gauge how old Clio was and where she’s from 😉
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I should’ve known. You’re too slick for that. 🙂
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#22 TC,
If you wish to please me with Van Morrison allusions, they must come from only four albums (that word is a giveaway of my age, I think…): Astral Weeks, St Dominic’s Preview, Veedon Fleece, and Common One.
Anything later than Common One (1982, I think) is beyond the pale. I don’t like most of his shorter songs with more conventional arrangements, timing and lyrics either. Madame George is the uber Van Morrison song for me, with a few others (Cyprus Avenue, Ballerina, Fair Play, When Heart is Open – “Oh hand me down my great-coat”, County Fair, etc.).
Clio
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13 DF:
You make some good points. It’s true that the concept of “alpha” as used here is slippery and sometimes crosses some conceptual lines. But no matter — I run with it because it is useful in conveying some valid information to neophytes. However, a hair-splitting debate on your points could be an interesting discussion in its own right.
However, we’ve made the alpha designation far too accessible so much so that all you have to do is stand a certain way to communicate that. Have we become so androgynous that if we display a few masculine traits and perhaps one alpha trait, we are instantly conferred with alpha status?
This comes close to exposing the achilles heel/thermal exhaust port of Game.
In my opinion, the Community is trying to do two things:
1 – taking a pool of befuddled men who have been warped by early conditioning, subpar environments, etc., and UNdoing their incorrect attributions, beliefs and behaviors. This offers such men the opportunity to be “normal.” This process is primarily one of pruning away the dead branches.
2 – taking otherwise “normal” men and *building* upon what is there to create “better than normal.”
IMHO, the second endeavor has not been as successful as the first. To its credit, many of the principles of Game are incredibly useful in guiding one’s decision making process in *general*. The rules of thumb are good and they do in fact elevate “normal” to “better than normal”. Somewhat.
But a woman doesn’t interact with an idea, or even an isolated action. She interacts with an organic, constantly changing emotional wave. YOU are that wave. If you don’t appropriately respond to the constantly changing present moment you are in, you interrupt that flow. And that flow is what is called congruence.
For example: being cocky is alpha. A beta may understand this in the abstract. He may learn a list of witty one-liners. He may have the will to alter his behavior in this way. His relatively brief moments of alphaness advertise to the women he meets “I am alpha”. But women have finely tuned congruency-detectors. Will that beta recognize those moments when he should have been cocky, i.e. does he have good timing? Or will he be oblivious to those critical moments, and revert to his more familiar beta mindset? Hell, will he know when NOT to be cocky? These are all important questions any seducer should ponder but the point is that once a critical mass of these missteps are made (and it usually doesn’t take much), the woman catches on. The “spell” is broken. All is not lost — she may still like you for everything else, but your balloon just lost a little air in that moment.
I think the best way to ingrain the true alpha mindset is nothing less than *immersion*, in the manner that learning a foreign language is best done by living in that country instead of taking classes. Which is why I advocate apprenticing yourself to naturals/alphas. They don’t need to articulate anything to you (they usually can’t). But you will absorb — organically — the right mindset just by watching and rolling with them.
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29 Clio:
If you want to please *me*, you will have to travel to Miami in order to enjoy my performance.
Anything later than Common One (1982, I think) is beyond the pale.
I’m not a huge fan but I agree.
My father tells me Van’s latest release is a return to form however. He can’t stop raving about it.
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And of course the point about stance in the post is right. The relaxed open posture they put the guy into signals confidence, and is a classic sign of the alpha. Nothing screams beta like tension and defensiveness, including defensiveness of the compensatory truculent sort.
It’s interesting to note that lowering the drink glass corresponds to lowering a weapon or shield, leading to a reduction in tension and raising the possiblity of mutual approach. It’s easier to approach when you’re approachable, easier to “open” a woman or set when you’re open yourself.
What goes around comes around, more or less.
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funny stuff
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I lived through the transition from Lee’s to Levi’s. Happened. just. like. that.
I’ve been digging myself out from my slump into betatude ever since. Traumatised me almost as much as the transition to agriculture. Never could get the hang of that plough and those oxen. Turning corners…what a bitch!
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Clio 29: [Lists with Clio-like clarity her list of acceptable Van Morrison albums]
I’m taking notes here, Tupe. Hope you’re not!
I may be old as the hills and twice as dusty…but at least I know what “album” means.
Your friend,
Patrick
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Help. when a girl says she just wants to have fun (sex, and only sex i think htats whats it means) and that the guy she likes is too reserved and serious, how will the guy in question help her have fun and not be reserved around her? Can this be in ur mail bag on Friday.
Anyone else care to help?
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I was in a club once. I was standing like an beta: arms crossed, legs crossed, hands held together and over my small penis and shriveled ball sack. I was such a beta I would wet myself when a woman walked passed me and even crap myself when she talked to me. Of course talking to me back then was, “Get out of my way, loser.” Afterwards I would cry.
Then I learned game. Now I am a man. I have fucked over 20,000 women, this summer alone. I went to a Halloween party last year and everyone was admiring my alpha costume. I fucked 100 different women that night. I had to turn away 100 others. And they were all hot, gorgeous women. No fatties, no sagging breasts or flat asses and all had amazing fellatio skills. Some even enjoyed fingering my tight, powerful alpha ass.
At clubs now I stand in different positions. When I put my left let forward at least 10 women immediately drop to their knees, begin salivating, and beg for me to release my now 15 inch penis for them to suck. When I put my right leg forward another 10 beg me to fuck them up the ass. When I stand with my legs exactly two feet apart, displaying my dominate manliness, the rest of the women in the club line up to wait their turn for me to fuck them. And it is all because of game.
When I am standing in any public place, say at at subway station, and I position my right pinkie exactly three inches from the left thumb which needs to be exactly two feet above the crotch but not so close to my stomach that it anyway hints of betatude a random woman will drop to the floor, spread her legs, and scream for me to fuck her right there and if I don’t she will hurl herself in front of the oncoming subway. Guaranteed.
Women love my alpha clothes, the my alpha cars, my alpha house, my alpha books, even my alpha cereal. I walk, talk, and look like an alpha. When I shit my shit is true alpha shit, hard, manly, strong and gigantic. My toilet is always getting clogged, but hey, being an alpha means some hardships, right? And I am so alpha I don’t even have to wipe my ass afterwards, since all the women I just bedded who are lying around my house compete to wipe it for me. Of course the alpha females don’t want me to wipe my ass they, just just plead, “Please, we love the smell of your alpha shit, please, don’t wipe it off!” When I walk my alpha dog all the other beta dogs show their stomachs in submission. Even my dog has a two foot penis and his alpha doggy ball sack drags on the ground. Women can even smell my dominate, alpha scent from around the world and the show up at my doorstep with wet panties ready to be “pumped and dumped” by my dominate, masculine self. If I have to turn them away because they are not 10’s (which is rare) they are happy to have my alpha dog fuck them, just to have some association with me. I have many half human/half dog children because of this, but it is only good that my alpha genes be transmitted into more than one species (through my alpha dog at least), given my Darwinian outlook on life. The world needs my virility.
And it is all because I read about it somewhere in book. Yeah.
I am so Alpha that I will eventually take over a country, impose a dictatorship for 15 years, invade a few others, like Poland, France and Russia, and rule Europe. In the end I will probably have to kill myself because everyone around me is so beta that they can’t keep up the conquests on my alpha terms. Even my alpha armies will fail me. They just needed to read about game and all that would have changed.
Yeah, it is great being an Alpha male. I love being on top.
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lolz
let the trolling begin
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Greetings:
Maybe a pair of shoes would help, too.
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You love that outfit.
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It simply had to happen…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law
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when is it a true alpha’s place to… as Cajun says… “turn alpha off”? for his own advantage.
When he’s talking to cops.
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# 37 may be a troll, but I gotta give it to him, that was hilarious.
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DF 37: Wow man, you should write a book! About how you struggled and struggled and struggled…
I wonder what you should call it….A good title is an important marketing tool.
Any ideas, DF?
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Der Fuehrer,
Bedienen sie mitch bitte.
Your humor is alpha. I bring to you my computer generated image, my HWR, cup size, BMI, digit ratio, leg length.,………all for your approval. I have no value beyond your approval.
I will lie with my legs open at 85.5 degrees, my right breast angled at 30 degrees toward your mouth, and my index finger 1 inch into your alpha ass.
Bitte,
alpha lady
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An impressive display of rhetorical power, Mr DF 37, sir…However, I wonder if you might need the services of a ghostwriter. It seems that English isn’t your first language…I wonder, DF, which one is?
How could I tell, DF? Your repeated use of “dominate”, a verb, for “dominant”, the adjective you should have used.
May I offer my services in helping you craft your future orations? I can just tell–I’m not sure how, but I can–that you’re the kind of man who will go very far indeed.
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how easy life can be.
when is it disavantageous to “alpha over” another male?
an interview, a boss, someone who expects you to be inferior?
when is it a true alpha’s place to… as Cajun says… “turn alpha off”? for his own advantage.
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to A Teidt Sfinctre,
Come dominate me right now. I want to verbalize your adjectives , and display my rhetorical and erotical powers to you.
Dame Alpha
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😆
@Der Fuehrer
@Carl Sagan trolls come out on this blog every now and then.
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Dame Alpha, it would be a pleasure to dominant you–I mean dominate, dammit!–but I am a pedophi–I mean pedant, dammit!–and while you fill me with erotical–I mean erotic, fuck!–I cannot, for I am still a virgi–
Did I say “fuck”? Excuse me, I have to go kill myself now.
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Hey everybody, there’s a rally soon! Sound and light show! Great stuff!
See you there, everyone! Except Sara! And we all know why!
P.S. And that woman in the picture on the left. The one with the big eyes and the BIG NOSE. Don’t want her there either. Everybody else, come on down!
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Hahahaha @ 37… brilliant! Just seeing your alpha words on the computer screen…so manly, so dominant… I can’t control myself… aaahhh need u know lolololol
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Alpha left, alpha right. Just remember it is women who are doing the mate selection, mate. Alpha and beta only rear their superfluousness because masculinity has disappeared. Correspondingly, femininity is dead in the West, too.
Lest anyone get tweaked I am speaking of The Scene and not society in the main.
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Clio:
Shaaaaaame. Where is His Band and the Street Choir? I think I’m going to sulk in my room and listen to Brown Eyed Girl and Domino.
And Astral Weeks. . . OK, but a prefigurement of the gassy new age stuff he has put out in his later career, no?
But then you have always said you were a sucker for Irish blarney.
😉
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Alpha Lady,
My ass is waiting for your index finger.
You sure that’s all it’s waiting for? Just wondering.
Peter
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@31 Tupac:
1 – taking a pool of befuddled men who have been warped by early conditioning, subpar environments, etc., and UNdoing their incorrect attributions, beliefs and behaviors. This offers such men the opportunity to be “normal.” This process is primarily one of pruning away the dead branches.
2 – taking otherwise “normal” men and *building* upon what is there to create “better than normal.”
IMHO, the second endeavor has not been as successful as the first.
I actually would disagree somewhat. The material and the intelligence behind this are out there. The relative success of number two to number one seems as such because the second requires much more willpower and dedication. It is not the failing of the science so much as it is the failing of the practitioners.
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Alpha Lady,
My ass is waiting for your index finger.
And thanks to everyone for the kind comments. I enjoy reading what everyone has to say on here about different things, it is the best part of this blog, although CH is hilarious. And to #47, English is my native language, I just wrote that too fast and did not proofread. Plus I suck at spelling.
Now I need to go to some rally with lots of colorful red flags and candles or something like that.
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CH wrote:
“….but the noble mysteries of human nature are only made so by our insistence. For those with the eyes to see, reality constantly reminds us we are not poetically transcendent creatures. We are animals.”
All kidding aside, you really should consider writing a book. I dont know what you do for a living, but you definitely have talent as a writer.
You could contrive a plot ome up that involves Game. Perhaps an older divorcee’ “getting it back” or a young man transforming himself, or rich women getting fleeced by players with it. You could make a lot of dough by writing a real book.
Youre 100% dead on about the alpha pose BTW. We as guys used to laugh off women worrying about “making an entrance” into a bar or club or social gathering, but in our testosterone-laced-machismo we missed that they were giving us a real clue to what THEY consider important. Its “Psychology-U-can-use-101”.
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So that’s why Larry Craig took a wide stance.
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Hideously, some men are taking a cue from women and going the Bald Eagle route themselves.
Why would you want to pay attention to men’s crotches?
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In fact is this not the biological definition of an alpha whereby males leveraged that high status to have access to mates thus perpetuating their genes?
What do you make of the Chinese general Gang Bingwho self-castrated in order to gain status in the eyes of the Emperor? Deeply impressed, the Emperor appointed him Chief Eunuch (a powerful position) and had a temple built in his honor.
I find the story deeply disturbing. It really turns my stomach. Truly sickening stuff.
A documentary series about Imperial China is in on TV here (On Yle Teema on Tuesdays, for the benefit of other Finnish readers). The isolationalist Chinese considered themselves completely superior to outsiders and refused to even trade with them, despite the fact that their enemies managed to ransack Beijing several times during the past few centuries.
I feel deep and profound satisfaction observing how China as otally humiliated by Western powers after the Boxar rebellion. he Chinese low-life scum had not observed even the most asic principles of dealing with foreign emissaries. It’s really a shame uclear weapons did not exist at the time. I would’ve enjoyed giving bastards of the Imperial Court the Hiroshima treatment. All the gold and glitter of the place is worthless compared to all of the disgusting things it represented.
It seems that being totally ravaged by foreign powers during the 20th century finally humbled the Chinese enough to consider outsiders equal (or even superior if warranted). But they haven’t got rid their ant-like submission to dictatorship, yet.
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37 Der Fuehrer,
that was fucking hiliarious!!!
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59 Animus:
I actually would disagree somewhat. The material and the intelligence behind this are out there. The relative success of number two to number one seems as such because the second requires much more willpower and dedication. It is not the failing of the science so much as it is the failing of the practitioners.
I suppose the distinction I have in mind is between two things:
1) having good judgement, decision-making skills, knowing how to “handle situations”, etc.
2) having a “sparkling personality”, charisma, charm, etc.
One can demonstrate the former on a case-by-case basis. The latter requires itself to be a more enduring and continuous quality.
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Gorillas are so beta when they beat their chests. A piece of advice for all aspirants who want to do it in True Alpha Style: travel to France and go stand on the track waiting for the TGV from Paris to Strassbourg, traveling at 570 km/h.
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It seems that English isn’t your first language…I wonder, DF, which one is?
How could I tell, DF? Your repeated use of “dominate”, a verb, for “dominant”, the adjective you should have used.
Wrong. Every single one I have ever seen make that mistake has been a native English speaking American.
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Talking about body language. Who’s more alpha? McCain or Obama?
Here’s an interesting opinion piece on the subject matter. It’s a leftist paper, but it’s written by the #1 leading primatologist:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frans-de-waal/nervous-old-male_b_129903.html
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I would suggest that a message from someone whose name when read aloud rhymes with “A Tight Sphincter”, be read with a touch of irony, especially when said message contains a pedantic correction of syntax. Also take note that the comment contained a question from Mr. “Sfinctre” asking just what Der F’s first language might be. Hmmm…I wonder what language A. Teidt Sfinctre thought Der F did speak from birth?
Irony alert again, right?
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Hey Thursday,
Gassy New Agey stuff is the phrase for Van M’s later productions. Though there are certain clear links between it and the Irish blarney of Astral Weeks, the quality level is much higher in the earlier AW. Greater verbal and musical texture, above all. The New Age work is verbally all repetitive slogans and abstract nouns, musically all soft riffs of unidentifiable electronic instruments.
Astral Weeks is full of concrete stuff – pennies, bridges, high-heeled shoes, real Belfast streets (so I’m told), trains, etc. Feels like life, like everyone’s painful memories of adolescence. Music echoes this: bass (perfection), cello, flutes, cymbals playing the train’s departure.
Both kinds of music produced by the same man, but the loss of poetic vision is apparent from the earlier to the later work.
Clio
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I kinda liked the discussions about the pros and cons of Van Morrison’s earlier albums…This is probably not the place for that, but it was good while it lasted, considering VM is one of my favorite singers of all time
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[…] Standing Like An Alpha I was recently out with some old friends at a club. One of the guys, smart but beta-ish, was standing holding his […] […]
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Let me add that this blog would have made way more sense if it was entitled “How to stand like a total homo”
right…. i dunno, this one really makes me wonder if you’re just making shit up to see if people will get behind it, even if it’s totally ridic, like the picture of your feet.
So that’s the answer. Just move your right foot out 90 degrees! That’s what you’ve been missing this whole time!
37 totally hit a grand slam today. that should be comment of the entire fucking history of the blog.
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70 Clio,
Your comment reminds Pupu of this article she has read.
http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/08/most-sung-about.html
Admiringly yours,
Pupu
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Hitler was definitely an alpha. Fascism is alpha-ness as political philosophy. As P. J. O’ Rourke said, “No woman ever wanted to be tied to the bed and ravished by a liberal.”
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Pretty rug.
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52 JUG END
See you there, everyone! Except Sara! And we all know why!
Come again? We all know, except Sara.
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Excellent post. Since you mentioned the David, you would probably be interested in this article about him. Because of the statue’s placement, we don’t see how alpha he truly is, without the miracle of modern technology.
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But this means that a small penis is hot! I mean, if David is the epitome of alpha-cool and his cock is kinda small, then…..
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The more I’ve gone out… the drink down by the hip has just happened for me… I used to hold it up, but I think I’m just more comfortable standing around by myself now and I started doing it subconsciously without reading it on here that it was a good idea.
The only time I really still find myself worrying about posture is during day game… standing around trying to talk to a girl without a drink to hold by my hip…. where do I put my hands then… I feel like Ricky Bobby, “what am I supposed to do with my hands?”
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This is the only blog that I never miss AND always read all the comments.
Please keep up the good work AND a picture of a guy with the right stance and the drink-at-the-hip thing would be nice too.
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