I got a lot of trackbacks to my post on identifying sluts, and I was able to read the comments from a few of the links. This one was from a Facebook discussion forum:
It’s fun sometimes to listen to people talk, because they’ll broach the subject of slut. I’ll ask them whats their definition? They’ll give me some silly vague definition about women who sleep with lots of men. I have slept with more than 3 dozen (and I have no shame in it) and I remind them of that. Then they will say, but you don’t dress like one! You aren’t a tease! You aren’t a liar!
Haha.— [removed to protect the guilty]
😯
The accompanying profile pic showed a somewhat attractive girl in her mid 20s. 36+ partners. Saddle up! Here’s something I’d like to remind her: The median number of sex partners for American women is three. You are a cheap, easy lay who has spread for more than ten times the number of cock as the typical woman. Don’t think you can fool the alphas for long by dressing conservatively. Attractive men have enough experience to recognize the subtler slut cues. No self-respecting man who knew of your past would take you seriously as a long term or marriage prospect. A lot of them will fuck you, but that’s not the same thing as winning their commitment. No, you will wind up settling for a grateful beta in your mid 30s, stewing in your resentment and bitterness, wondering why it all ended up like this. On the upside, when you divorce him after two years because he had the gall to discover you cheating, the law will look kindly upon you and your scoured aging vagina and give you half his hard earned money. Plus the house and dog.
I bet she has a masculine digit ratio.
Personally, I prey on girls like this because I know they will put out faster. I’m a huge fan of sluts and when I know I’m dating one I will spend less money on her and push harder and sooner for unlubed anal sex. If I was interested in a relationship, I wouldn’t even think twice about dumping her for a higher value girl with fewer past partners. (Or, more accurately, moving the slut to third string.) Sluts know this is true deep in the crevices of their souls, which is why, despite (or because of) their indignant protestations and transparent sophistry to the contrary, they really do get bothered when called out.
I can hear the lamentations of the cumhounds now.
“Oh, but you write a game blog all about making it easier for men to pick up women. You’ve had way more partners than me. Hypocrite!”
Dear sluts,
Don’t you know it’s different for guys?
It’s important to screen out slutty girls like the one above if you are looking to get married, otherwise you run a higher risk of ending up like this poor beta.
GARDEN CITY, New York: A New York doctor is demanding his estranged wife pay him $US1.5 million ($2.1 million) to compensate him for the kidney he gave her while they were still on good terms.
Richard Batista, 49, said he gave his kidney to Dawnell Batista in June 2001, and she filed for divorce in July 2005.
The couple has three children, aged 8, 11 and 14.
The New York Post reported that Dr Batista was dumped after his wife started seeing a physical therapist she met in 2003 while recovering from a knee injury suffered in karate lessons. “I saved her life and then to be betrayed like this is unfathomable. It’s incomprehensible,” the Post quoted Dr Batista as saying.
“She engaged in an extramarital affair and refused to go to marital counselling and reconciliation.
“She slapped me with divorce papers in the operating room while I was trying to save another patient’s life.”
😈
Like an innocent beta lamb to the slaughter. Funny how people think being a doctor automatically confers alpha status. And then they scoff when I helpfully remind them that women are inherently amoral animals, and thus should never be taken seriously as moral equals. I have your kidney? You saved my life? Big deal, you’re a beta! And the physical therapist got me wet. What did you expect?
This gullible schmo probably thought toiling away for four years in medical school would guarantee him a smooth, happy ride with women. Fool. A few hours spent reading my blog would have better prepared him to avoid the ex-wife ass raping he got.
Squeal like a beta, boy!
“I have your kidney? You saved my life? Big deal, you’re a beta! And the physical therapist got me wet. What did you expect?”
You caught that thought process exactly right, that is just how women think: justified in everything they do, including screwing their husbands over. That woman probably still thinks that she’s in the right.
LikeLike
And then they scoff when I helpfully remind them that women are inherently amoral animals, and thus should never be taken seriously as moral equals.
Other than your own anecdotal evidence do you have any empirically evidence to back up this claim?
LikeLike
“She slapped me with divorce papers in the operating room while I was trying to save another patient’s life.”
I bet dollars to donuts that when this woman is asked why she ended up cockgobbling her physical therapist the reason will be, “He didn’t pay me enough attention, what with his silly ‘saving lives’ and all. I just didn’t feel loved enough.”
LikeLike
The doctor’s story is actually worse: he sued about his kidney after she not only cheated, but took his kids to the Alpha males’ place and refused to let him see them. American men have no rights to their own kids; think twice before you procreate.
By the way, when this story broke, the media had pics of the couple. They’ve removed them in lieu of a pic of the guy looking like a sad sack. In other words, the Alpha women of the media are going out of their way to humiliate the Beta for being Beta.
Would this have happened to a doctor in the prefeminist culture of the US?
You can see a picture of his wife here:
http://www.necn.com/Boston/Nation/2009/01/08/Man-wants-kidney-back-from/1231434751.html
LikeLike
That photo shows that the wife has got that strong, testosterone-laden jawline. She was born a slut.
LikeLike
“The median number of sex partners for American women is three.”
Is that really true?
No wonder our country is so sexually repressed.
Swooping three fly girls in a night is a great night in my world. Although not extraordinary.
“Funny how people think being a doctor automatically confers alpha status.”
Do people really think this? I respect doctors, but take them out of the operating room, and 99.9% of them are monkeys.
Some goes for “high-powered” lawyers.
“This gullible schmo probably thought toiling away for four years in medical school would guarantee him a smooth, happy ride with women. Fool. A few hours spent reading my blog would have better prepared him to avoid the ex-wife ass raping he got.”
True. Here is another tip:
Do not marry American girls.
Anyway, I am off to one of my lawyers office.
– MPM
LikeLike
It’s bad enough there are golddiggers out there, but organdiggers, now? Fuck!
LikeLike
Wow, what a raw deal. It might be worth doing a post on “gaming” as a means of keeping a marriage together….although, obviously, the best way to do that is to marry someone as committed to the idea of marriage and the other person as you are. That requires mutual self-sacrifice, which is far too rare these days.
LikeLike
The outcome of this case will be SEMINAL in predicting whether male rights will make a long-awaited comeback, or have been permanently relegated to the garbage bin of history!
LikeLike
Straight truth from Roissy, straight knob-slobbing from me. Fuck you lezbots, you could get it a-sensually from me.
LikeLike
jonathanjones02 wrote:
“Wow, what a raw deal. It might be worth doing a post on “gaming” as a means of keeping a marriage together”
Tell me you’re just joking about that.
LikeLike
While we’re on the subject of men’s rights, lemme hip y’all to a story (link below). A guy’s wife lied to him, saying twins were his, when they were the product of her affair. He had to pay child support for 16 years. Now that the fraud is exposes…you guessed it!…he has to keep paying.
The sentence was handed down by a female, who must have been repulsed by his Betatude, whilst fantasizing about the Alpha who got away with this (who was never brought into the discussion, BTW). Note the female judge’s quote where she refuses to say what the mom did was wrong.
What was that about woman and situational ethics?
Keep in mind this is law in many states. If you find out they’re not yours you still pay.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1152816
LikeLike
G.
You have never swooped three girls in one night. Maybe if you consider swooping to be the act of squeezing a girl’s ass and then running away before she hits you.
-Dr. Deepdick
aka The P-holes Champ
LikeLike
I’ve never thought that doctors are alpha. Look at some of the fags on Dr. 90210. That Dr. Rey is as beta as they come.
Doctors are also notoriously horrible with money, another beta trait in my eyes. If you can’t keep a good handle on your cash and stock investments, how can you keep a solid handle on your investments in the currency that is vagina?
LikeLike
@ jonathanjones02
it’s been done here before homie, or at least the comment thread has referred to it.
We gotta call a spade a spade on that average partner figure though. Pretty lies perish, ugly girls’ virginity does not. Sexually desirable girls should not be held to the same standards as beta-fodder moocows. Girls over ‘5’ average single digits; believable, and still lets us laugh.
LikeLike
You know what another beta trait is? Being a fucking servile prole. Servitude = betatude. One good example is say … a fucking waiter. Would you agree with me Chuck?
LikeLike
I’m not certain that past promiscuity is a very good indicator of future infidelity. I’m not saying that it’s a bad indicator I simply don’t know for sure. The two probably have something to do with each other but I think the case is overstated.
It’s absurd to claim that women are amoral relative to men (if you claimed that people were amoral animals that would have in a sense been a stronger claim). While what this particularly woman did was wrong it wouldn’t be difficult to find men who did worse things.
I’m not into treating female promiscuity as any sort of moral failing but it is not and will never be the same as male promiscuity. Whatever negatives male promiscuity reveals about the character of the man, it’s still a challenge. Having sex with many beautiful women is a challenge for a guy. For a girl having sex with lots of guys is a testament to nothing beyond her willingness and availability. A man can take pride in the numbers of women he beds. It’s like painting a little silhouette of each plane you shoot down. It’s an accomplishment. A female taking pride in her sexual experience is like painting a little silhouette of a circle for each oreo cookie you eat.
LikeLike
Doctor’s are not notoriously bad with money. Managing money is nothing like managing relationships. Having money helps with women but beyond that the two share little in common.
LikeLike
Unless you and your future wife are a members of a smaller, conservative religious community that takes marriage seriously and, however informally, enforces those norms, as a man in contemporary North America you’d have to be a complete fool to get married.
LikeLike
“No self-respecting man who knew of your past would take you seriously as a long term or marriage prospect”
The problem is, roissy, that in this country today there is absolutely no dearth of non-self-respecting men. So her marriage prospects are probably quite good.
This is the cold, hard reality of America. Sluts increasingly get rewarded for their behavior, or at least aren’t penalized.
LikeLike
Men can be pretty amoral when it comes to sex too. Most men will come up with all kinds of sophistry to prove that their getting it on with lots of babes is in fact compatible with the greater good of society. For example, if an attractive married woman wants to have an affair with them, most men will come up with all sorts of excuses for going ahead with it. When it comes to sex men are as bad as women for moral rationalization. Thankfully, Roissy, for the most part, tends to spare us this nonsense.
LikeLike
I don’t know about that, proles seem to have less problems getting laid than doctors. My doctor friends don’t really have much game outside of mentioning they’re doctors every chance they get. Ironically they don’t realize it but I think they get laid less because women then see them as an investment or long-term project with relationship potential and hold off on sleeping with them in order to make a good impression. Meanwhile my bartender and waiter friends are swimming in women. Also, I find that many doctors I know have a bad tendency to wife up the first good looking chick that gives them some for some reason.
I have a alpha doctor friend but he’s the exception I find.
LikeLike
GUNNER I DISAGREE. One time I was in the Pacific swimming around a small island beating up sharks. I then swam to another island nearby cause I got bored with it.
I found the village chief of this island and bashed his skull in with a coconut. I then proceeded to kill all the betas and mate with will the wimminz. I used my superior knowledge of genetics that I read in Maxim magazine so as to only create female babies. I then created a society made up completely of women whose sole aim was to fuck my gigantically delicious alpha dick, which is like a piston in a vintage triumph spitfire, functionally fast and hard, yet easy on the eye. Soon after there were thousands of women, so many in fact that I created a new economy in the south pacific where women were exchanged for goods and services. It was a good and just society, one in which sex fanatics could attend gamblers anonymous and kill both birds with one coconut.
It was then I knew that women and money are exactly the same.
LikeLike
SOUNDS LIKE MARXIST BETA TALK T. A dicktatorship of the playertariat is exactly what the left want. You’ve bought into the lesbian seagullisms of betaterati.
LikeLike
I’ve stated this before, roissy. You dismiss it. I’ll state it again.
Manwhores are not desired by the ego-intact “nice girl”. The sluts may drool over him, but a less experienced woman will be intimidated or repulsed by him. You use the phrase “special little snowflake.” What is the truth behind that? It is that the ego-intact woman must be certain that a man “gets her”. She refuses to be just a number. She will be appreciated and understood on her own terms, and not compared to tens of others.
The manwhore has a dilemma with an ego-intact “nice girl”. He can be emotionally open about his past, so that he can be understood and appreciated for his true self, —>and be repulsed by the nice girl. Or, he must deny this part of himself—->and not be truly understood. The second option is functionally absent, because the intuitive ego-intact nice girl will sniff him out anyway.
No, I have no longitudinal studies here. I just “know” that the manwhores and sluts are better suited for each other long-term. They can better understand and forgive each others pasts.
LikeLike
Spot on. Anyone who thinks its all about being honest and genuine and expecting the same rather than calculating your actions to elicit the appropriate behaviors is a fool. The good thing is so many of these beta doofuses are exactly that, it leaves a large pool of women looking for someone they can cross swords with. As for sluts, I love ’em, and I personally don’t give much of a shit how many men she’s been with, I don’t give anyone the benefit of the doubt ’til I’ve known her a long, long time, and even then I keep an objective view because there are no guarantees. Most women will gladly throw you under the bus if a better deal comes along or their hormones are unbalanced that day, or the sun is shining, the wind blowing, or they are a carbon based life form or any of a bazillion capricious reasons. Personally I’d have to be pretty convinced of a woman’s integrity to ever marry under any circumstances. All that aside though, the average of three is woefully below the worldwide averages. Americans are basically a bunch of immature uptight prudes: http://alphadominance.com/?p=510
LikeLike
36 different dicks beating up the same pussy. Fucking disgusting.
LikeLike
Thursday’s right, you’ve got to be insane to get married nowadays. Too bad because I grew up in a traditional family household and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t feel sad over its near obsolescence.
I knew a woman that also slept with more than 3 dozen men. Of course, she was a high class escort/whore and was paid handsomely for it and very attractive I might add. Unless its the same woman, that facebook chick and her parents must feel a twinge of pride for such an accomplishment – rivaling a whore’s notches without getting paid for it. Nice.
LikeLike
Deepdick, there is already a doctor on here that thinks G-Manifesto is an idiot.
LikeLike
“This is the cold, hard reality of America. Sluts increasingly get rewarded for their behavior, or at least aren’t penalized.”
Joe T hitting it on the head again. I’m dizzy.
I told my mom about this story yesterday. She had little to say, predictably. Her younger daughter is already married happily, but I sat at her brunch table wearing a navy blue “Women Weaken Legs” tshirt with the mick on it. I’m her favorite kid.
LikeLike
T is correct about submissive physicians today. Being a physician is a lifelong experience of being pounded into submission. Litigious patients, war-lording administrators, stultifying Medicare/Medicaid bureaucrats, and fee-denying insurance companies, all silence the voice of the physician.
Medicine is on tract to become a middle-income, female-dominated profession.
LikeLike
Dr. Deepdick said:
G.
You have never swooped three girls in one night. Maybe if you consider swooping to be the act of squeezing a girl’s ass and then running away before she hits you.
-Dr. Deepdick
aka The P-holes Champ
I agree. It is like G has underdefined ‘swooping’ to mean anything from banging a chick to looking at her. I think he’s watched Boiler Room too many times and thinks he’s Vin Diesel. He’s shtick is getting tired.
LikeLike
AS BIG:
“You know what another beta trait is? Being a fucking servile prole. Servitude = betatude. One good example is say … a fucking waiter. Would you agree with me Chuck?”
1.) We all serve someone else in one way or another my man.
2.) Thanks for reading my blog; it needs the traffic.
3.) Using a handle proclaiming your monster meat indicates to me that the exact opposite is true.
LikeLike
As the official Black Prole of the Roissy Forum, I’d have to agree 100% w/T-Raw’s assessment. Proles have no problem at all getting some if they want it. In the main, its the guys in the Professions that end up getting the Blue Balls of Life.
More later.
Salaam
Mu
LikeLike
It’s an awful case and I feel sorry for everyone involved.
Secondly, unlubbed anal? Seriously unsafe. And irresponsible. A real man would take it first and keep it lubbed and safe.
LikeLike
In the “kidney” case, the feminazi judge made a quite relevant observation. The uberbeta husband knew about the affair during the divorce process but prefered to ignore the possibility that the children were not his
Even I, a machista-misogynistic latin american would give the same sentence, given the state of the law in canada. The law is already feminazi-oriented. If the guy behaves like this, he deserves what he gets.
I hope he´ll abandon medcine, become a hippie, thus denying his wife of his substantial income, and ascore some hippie chicks around the world.
LikeLike
“T is correct about submissive physicians today. Being a physician is a lifelong experience of being pounded into submission. Litigious patients, war-lording administrators, stultifying Medicare/Medicaid bureaucrats, and fee-denying insurance companies, all silence the voice of the physician.
Medicine is on tract to become a middle-income, female-dominated profession.”
Doctors have to suck up to private sector overlords because they let it happen to themselves. The AMA supported the American turbo-capitalism of HMOs, and got kicked in the nuts for it. You’re right about it becoming a female-dominated profession, though. Two of my sisters are MDs… and one doesn’t work (thanks to her husband, the engineer).
LikeLike
This blog is awesome. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Who said arrogance is a good thing? It’s so easy to manipulate. Much better than trolling afflication-wearing TUF noobs on the UG and OG. I’m gonna stick around for awhile and wear some different hats from time to time. What will I be next? A raging fat cow feminist? Or will I act the black tough guy with the power of street knowledge? Only time will tell chaps. Only time will tell.
LikeLike
I get the sense that most prole guys instinctively know their sexual market value and adjust accordingly. Most professionals seem completely oblivious to it.
By the way, this applies to women too. Unattractive/overweight girls who were raised as princesses assume that every man wants to sleep with them.
LikeLike
I think there’s a lot of class based self segregation. If you’re a doctor and you want to date a waitress you’ll have no trouble with the girl but your peers might give you a hard time. Doctors are clearly more desirable than waiters but because they pretty much demand a girl with at least a college degree it tends mitigate their considerable advantage. Of course they get smarter girls, which is nice if that’s something that they care about, but I have a feeling many of them are just sort of buying into society’s expectations.
LikeLike
Not if she’s hot enough.
LikeLike
Emoticons are beta. We all know your perspective is far too studied, and accurate, to be natural. 😉
LikeLike
“Doctors are clearly more desirable than waiters but because they pretty much demand a girl with at least a college degree it tends mitigate their considerable advantage.”
If all she’s looking for is a one-night stand or fling, the doctor isn’t clearly more desirable than the waiter.
LikeLike
“but your peers might give you a hard time”
no they won´t. unless she´s ugly. Maybe your sister/mother will give you a hard time. But not your peers. If they do and the girl is hot, it will be beta frustration
LikeLike
Why is there so much hatin’ on the G? He’s a character.
LikeLike
I’m not certain that past promiscuity is a very good indicator of future infidelity.
Oh yes it is:
‘… evidently, in sexual-contact networks… ‘the rich get richer’
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v411/n6840/full/411907a0.html
LikeLike
“Why is there so much hatin’ on the G? He’s a character.”
Insecurity.
– MPM
LikeLike
dammit, roissy, more from the Facebook discussion forum! I want to read!
LikeLike
How do I get in on the facebook thread? I’m trying to poke that slut
LikeLike
@11
Your study addresses safe-sex, not capacity for long-term relationships.
LikeLike
The males role in procreation is insert variation into the genetic code into as many different strains as possible.
A male inserting his code into 1 or less genetic sequences has failed to meet his biological role.
The females role is to select the best strain of code to mix with her own to create a “better” sequence of code for the next generation, thus improving the species overtime. A female who chooses to mix her genetic code with just any code sequence willing to come along is failing to meet her biological role and is actually endangering the species in the long run.
LikeLike
T. AKA Ricky Raw,
“Also, I find that many doctors I know have a bad tendency to wife up the first good looking chick that gives them some for some reason.”
So true. Goes for lawyers to.
I think this is because:
Doctor guy and lawyer guy got zero girls in college: too much studying.
Doctor guy and lawyer guy got zero girls in medical school or law school: too much studying and no dough.
Then they become Doctor/lawyer and marry the first decent girl that steps to them.
Side note:
There are some doctors/lawyers with Game. But they had it Before they became doctors/lawyers.
– MPM
LikeLike
I think there’s a lot of class based self segregation. If you’re a doctor and you want to date a waitress you’ll have no trouble with the girl but your peers might give you a hard time.
Gunner, the only peers giving you a hard time are women with masters degrees you’ve passed up in favor of the waitress. Trust me.
LikeLike
Roissy:
I’m highly skeptical when it comes to statistics like these. In social sciences, it’s a well-known fact that in morally sensitive matters, people lie to make themselves feel better even in absolutely anonymous surveys. And even if respondents are totally honest, it’s very hard to form a really representative sample. For all I know, the number may be true, but we have no way of knowing that reliably. (My personal impression is that it’s probably roughly correct.)
That said, 36 is without doubt at least several times above the median, so your point holds anyway. In fact, it’s not so much a question of her number relative to the media, but of absolute numbers. Even if the median girl were so, that would just mean that the society has reached the point where more than 50% of women are worthless as long-term prospects. (Whether such a society could function in practice is another matter, of course.)
LikeLike
“Your study addresses safe-sex, not capacity for long-term relationships.”
ZING!
You know what is awesome about the number 36?
It’s the same age as Roissy. What a coinky dink!
LikeLike
Girls usually view Dr’s as long term relationship/marriage material. Consequently, they’ll hold out sex on them in order to give the appearance of being a virtuous lady i.e. desirable, and avoid the pump and dump and snag themselves a peice of the good life. I would bet Dr’s, on average, have a far worse dinners paid for/sex ratio than even your weakest PUA.
Most docs put in 12-15yrs of hardcore training before they see a respectable pay check. Compound that with the massive debt they incur from school and being paid slave wages during internship – these guys don’t break even until they’re in their 40’s. Usually, by that point, some status seeking slut has her claws in him. So, our good doctors spend the rest of their days in indentured servitude to their wives working his balls off to pay for her whimsical dalliances and the kids private schooling. Or, they end up on the wrong side of a divorce – she was neglected b/c all he cared about was work, work work!! – and give half their income on court orders.
And then their are the inevitable malpractice lawsuits….
Anyone entering that profession needs to have their head’s examined.
LikeLike
roissy is a former beta. This is a conclusion I reached sometime ago although the reason why he hasn’t revealed this yet is more interesting.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think there are certain class-based expectations when it comes to marriage, even if the girl is hot. Otherwise a lot more men would be marrying strippers. Yet for some reason they aren’t in high demand as wife material. Most men above a certain class tend to like the elementary school teacher-type. Educated, but nuturing, with a career which is not too demanding. Hotness makes up for a lot of things, but the women still has to be able to swim in the man’s social circle, and your run of the mill waitress, fast-food worker, hairdresser type probably won’t be able to successfully make the transistion to the satisfaction of a doctor/lawyer/banker type.
LikeLike
“If they do (give the doctor shit for boning a waitress) and the girl is hot, it will be beta frustration”
Most people in the professions are beta, and all the betas will try to get you to shack up with a bitter, frigid harridan with a diploma, rather than a hot chick. Even if the hottie has a masters degree in physics; they’ll attempt to disparage her as “dumb” or “anorexic” because that’s what their shrew wives are telling them.
LikeLike
Or maybe … you know … there is more to being a doctor than picking up? Shock and horror I know. Perhaps, if some of you weren’t judgemental all the time, and constantly framing everything as sexual, then you’d be able to see this. God forbid people don’t want to become doctors solely because they may get cheated on, or get sued. But I forgot, the world is a big, bad scary place filled with cheating witches, beta boogeymen, and lizardmen lawyers with fangs. I’m afraid to leave my room. Being afraid all the time of life must be the new definition of alpha.
LikeLike
MPM,
Shit is increasingly rare. A single one of my alpha friends is doing the med school thing, this as a second coming rebirth pursuit of happiness. And he has still been faithful to his 22 year old girlfriend, at least in these past few months. I know 50-100 lawyers, betas all. Actually except for one, but he warrants his own post some other time.
But my point is that prototype G’s don’t aspire to become doctors or lawyers.
LikeLike
@ PrimeTime
you are a current beta. this took me no time to crystalize as a formative thought. also i just jizzed in my pants.
LikeLike
“More than three dozen” = at least 50. If cock were time, she’d have more than a half-century of dick up in there. Gross.
Some guys have let their weight go so badly that they haven’t seen their penis in over 10 years.
This chick has let so much smegma grease her vaj that she hasn’t smelled the scent of her own pussy since she was a high school freshman.
LikeLike
But the problem with strippers is not purely class-based. There are middle class strippers, especially college students. The problem is primarily stigma (I would never want to raise a kid with a very stigmatized woman) and trust (it’s hard trusting a stripper to be faithful). A stripper has a whole bunch of extra issues in play compared to a regular day-job working middle class or working class hottie.
LikeLike
Funny how people think being a doctor automatically confers alpha status…
This gullible schmo probably thought toiling away for four years in medical school would guarantee him a smooth, happy ride with women. Fool. A few hours spent reading my blog would have better prepared him to avoid the ex-wife ass raping he got.
Heh… I am currently in medical school, and as a matter of fact, that is what I used to think.
(BTW, some commenters seem surprised by the idea that people think doctor = automatic alpha. But remember that this is what TV shows teach us, and betas believe whatever the media tells us about what attracts women.)
There are some doctors/lawyers with Game. But they had it Before they became doctors/lawyers.
Or they found Roissy’s blog during their first year of medical school…
LikeLike
In my opinion monogamy vs polygamy/cheating is a better measure of sluttitude than number of partners. I don’t think a girl is a slut if she’s had 10 monogamous relationships from the age of 16 to 30, for example. A girl who has had only 3 guys, but over the course of two months and with significant overlap, would be sluttier than that.
LikeLike
The most common spouse occupation for male physicians: physician
The most common spouse occupation for female physicians:
physician
LikeLike
There is a real bias against dating a woman without a college education similar in kind if not magnitude to bedding a girl from a developing nation. This isn’t even up for debate. You could say it is just the jealousy of frustrated ‘betas’ but a) most guys are betas and b) a guy won’t have to deal with the same shit if he dates a similarly pretty educated girl. I’m not saying that a guy should care. I am saying other people will. Doctors make very good money over their lifetimes. They peak a little late but the prestige combined with expected earnings more than make up for this deferment. Girls care about a guys money as a signal of his fitness than as a thing in and of itself.
LikeLike
roissy is a former beta. This is a conclusion I reached sometime ago although the reason why he hasn’t revealed this yet is more interesting.
He’s said this before. He didn’t use the word ‘beta’ specifically, but he said he didn’t used to be good with girls. Same goes for Roosh too. In general, the vast majority of game theorists are former betas because if they were natural alphas, they wouldn’t have any need to waste their time with game in the first place.
LikeLike
@ Cannon’s Cannon
How about how crystalize my dick up your anus.
LikeLike
People must look at the way the world is, not the way they think it should be. Men like sluts for pleasure, but want non-sluts for marriage (if they want marriage at all). Women want bad boys for pleasure, but rich beta boys for marriage. This is reality. Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant.
LikeLike
@ ben g
a girl who’s had 10 monogamous relationships from 16 to 30 is both well-trained and stupid. without overstating the instance, would you rather be a girl’s 11th faithful tryst or her 3rd guilty pleasure? which are you most likely to secure for yourself? are you desirable or just a willing partner in the treatise of love? also, kill yourself.
LikeLike
Hmmmm, I just refreshed this thread a couple of times within a few minutes. Anony’s comment at 415pm, was not there the first time around, but Gunner’s at 419pm was. Refresh, then anony’s comment appears. Makes you wonder hmmmm. Is roissy still hear four hours later moderating comments? Should have got a screen capture.
LikeLike
Seeking Alpha
I’m relatively new here, so I wasn’t aware of that. Good to have clarification nonetheless.
LikeLike
Cannon’s Canon,
“But my point is that prototype G’s don’t aspire to become doctors or lawyers.”
Agreed.
Who wants to study and go to school that much?
And at the end make minimal dough.
The only ones who cake up are Plastic Surgeons and Plaintiff Attorneys. Top Plaintiff attorneys have long dough. Jet dough.
Still, most still have zero Game and get chopped apart with divorces.
Most Plastic Surgeon Players are betas: giving away breast augmentations in exchange for sex.
Weesh.
– MPM
LikeLike
I can’t help but wonder about this “woman dumps beta provider for alpha lover” paradigm that so obsesses commenters on this site.
My own observation is that quite a few women marry some kind of alpha bad boy in their youth, and then, worn out by his infidelity, or partying, or drink/drug abuse, or his general neglect, they leave the alpha to marry what you would call a beta. One of my (former) closest friends did exactly that. I don’t think that this is justified except in the case of serious abuse (including infidelity, IMO), since I think marriage should be forever – but it does happen.
Even if you don’t agree with me, though, that women marry and then dump alphas to marry nicer, more compliant betas, you should at least see that the logic behind your assumption that these women are all snagging alpha mates the second time around is a little shaky.
I wish there was some way to measure the alpha-status of the men for whom women like the ones in these stories leave their mates. Most of the discussions here on the subject of female infidelity rest on the assumption that these ladies are landing alpha-males after dumping their beta-provider husbands.
But how likely is that? By your own reckoning, fellows, these women are usually past their prime (over 25, by your standards) in age; they have children that their new men may have to spend money to support; and, having been married before, they aren’t very “fresh” as marital partners – which does make some difference, since second marriages are (I think) less likely to endure than first ones.
So – just how could these women be scoring alpha males as second husbands, or for LTRs? It doesn’t seem to make any sense, assuming that alphas want to ensure that they aren’t being played for suckers.
Clio
LikeLike
T. AKA Ricky Raw,
Good insight as always.
“There are middle class strippers, especially college students.”
There are “upper class” Exotic dancers as well.
“The problem is primarily stigma”
So true. Although, in some circles and cultures the stigma is less so. I think a recent Governor of Louisiana was married to a Exotic Dancer. In Vegas, dating a showgirl has less of a stigma as well. (I understand you can draw a line between Exotic Dancer and Showgirl. Although, the line can be blurry.)
“A stripper has a whole bunch of extra issues”
Understatement of the year.
“compared to a regular day-job working middle class or working class hottie.”
Although, this line can be blurry as well.
– MPM
LikeLike
G, other commentators here are right about you. You are a free-riding douchebag. Exactly what value do you add to civilization, apart from posting half naked women and bad music to your blog. I do notice that you call yourself an international playboy. Inherited wealth I wonder?
LikeLike
Coming to DC next week. Who wants to meet at the Crystal City Restaurant?
http://www.crystalcityrestaurant.com/
LikeLike
Clio – “So – just how could these women be scoring alpha males as second husbands, or for LTRs? It doesn’t seem to make any sense, assuming that alphas want to ensure that they aren’t being played for suckers.”
They aren’t necessarily scoring Alphas as second husbands or LTRs. To the contrary, they are cheating on their beta provider husbands with Alphas. The Alphas are not being played for suckers. To the contrary, they are playing the cheating women for suckers by allowing them to think that they will divorce their wives for cheating whores. Naturally, this will never happen because the Alphas have the best of both worlds. They get some on the side from willing women, while preserving their families and fortunes.
As has been said many times before, most women would rather have part of an Alpha than all of a Beta.
LikeLike
@ Primetime
“How about how crystalize my dick up your anus.”
If your emotional tell is poor grammar, then I’d be wiping your aspirations in my ass during a few rounds of Fight Night 3.
LikeLike
@ anon –
Dude was hyping Wale before he got the Freshman 2009 XXL cover. Guru is classic shit. That Shyheim find was gold.
If you don’t like hip-hop, whatever, but he posts top quality hip-hop.
LikeLike
cannon’s canon, is your name nathaniel cannon?
LikeLike
@clio,
strongly agree. The older, wiser woman marries a more stable man. The unfaithful alpha drifts into chaos.
LikeLike
anon,
Not sure what I wrote to anger you so much. Cheer up.
“Exactly what value do you add to civilization”
Great question to ask yourself some time.
As for me: Love, mystery, action, excitement, experience, travel, intrigue, fun and helping the oppressed.
Off the top of my head.
“I do notice that you call yourself an international playboy. Inherited wealth I wonder?”
You are confusing me with a trust fund kid.
– MPM
LikeLike
Women have an Alpha/Beta Provider complex in the same way men have a Slut/Prude complex.
Women want the Alphas for fun, and a Beta Provider to take care of them. Not unlike a man having his fun with the sluts, but only wanting to invest in the more prudish girls
This is the biggest problem for a male professional. As soon as a HB realizes you are a successful professional her anti-slut defense shield to go up. She won’t sleep with you easily since she wants to game you into investing in her before she gives you a taste of what she’s been giving her ‘alphas’ for nothing.
Men make it common knowledge that they like sluts. Women try to maintain their market control of the sexual market by shaming slutty behavior in other women.
Women want to deny the fact that they really like alphas by telling impressionable young men that beta attributes are the ones they find most attractive. And by hiding the number of alphas they fucked in the past once they find a promising beta provider they want to take care of them.
LikeLike
so wait…because the older woman doesn’t marry him, the alpha supposedly spins out into chaos? i think this is a rationalization women create. i’m sure he’s not losing much sleep over it and has moved on to new younger conquests. besides, it’s usually more likely that HE didn’t want to get married, not vice versa.
LikeLike
ugh. aliasclio, i know you’re a silly, intellectually pretentious old maid, but please tell me you aren’t THAT dense.
>>>they have children that their new men may have to spend money to support
this is exactly what Roissy et al. are describing, just in a different chronological order.
the beta works hard in his provider role, while the irresopnsible alpha reaps all the benefits. the “women leaving betas for alphas” is only one manifestation of this..
LikeLike
Nah G, I just think you are a free rider. You put down others who contribute to society, yet you take advantage of everything society gives you. Individuals like yourself are living in a modern vacuum where there is a lack of competition and you can easily fake it and make it. 10,000 years ago you would have been cast out by the tribe, or killed, for acting the way you are now. You are the evolutionary equivalent of a beta monkey trying to sneak a root with the alpha’s harem, but in the modern world there is no alpha to teach you a violent lesson in earning your keep.
LikeLike
“Even if you don’t agree with me, though, that women marry and then dump alphas to marry nicer, more compliant betas, you should at least see that the logic behind your assumption that these women are all snagging alpha mates the second time around is a little shaky……….But how likely is that? By your own reckoning, fellows, these women are usually past their prime (over 25, by your standards) in age; they have children that their new men may have to spend money to support; and, having been married before, they aren’t very “fresh” as marital partners – which does make some difference, since second marriages are (I think) less likely to endure than first ones.”
Some do, most don’t. But the point is that women think they can. You are making the mistake that this decision is being thought through. It isn’t. We’re not talking rational hard, clear-headed thinking here, we are talking “I’ll just do whatever I feel like doing so there.” As many have pointed out, women are ruled by emotion, whatever whim they want to indulge in is just fine, no matter the damage to people around them or the costs, even to themselves. They are a new person every day (Not my original idea, but I forget whose it is/was…they are probably dead?)
LikeLike
your run of the mill waitress, fast-food worker, hairdresser type probably won’t be able to successfully make the transistion to the satisfaction of a doctor/lawyer/banker type
It essentially comes down to the question of whether the sexually attractive, but low status girl is of low or high IQ. In other words, is she a waitress or hairdresser because she’s too stupid to do anything else, and are you willing to bet on her genes?
LikeLike
Cannon’s Canon
Sex is for after marriage.
LikeLike
on January 9, 2009 at 4:57 pm anon
Seriously, why should anyone “contribute” to society? WTF does that mean? Help dumb ass NAMs in the ghetto, send a fucking laptop to Africa or “doing something” about global warming? Not my fucking problem.
Things are the way they are because of liberal, leftists thinking. They’ve just made it easy to game the whole fucking system and now they cry about it. Besides, I’m sure guys like “G” are just helping to “deconstruct” everything.
LikeLike
“Women want the Alphas for fun, and a Beta Provider to take care of them. Not unlike a man having his fun with the sluts, but only wanting to invest in the more prudish girls”
The best for women is when the Alpha and the Beta Provider are combined in one man. Example: President Sarkozy of France. Look at the incredibly hot wife he bagged.
For men, the best is when the girl is both hot (and sexual), and is totally faithful. She is a slut only with him, and a prude for every other guy.
This also probably describes Sarkozy’s wife, Carla Bruni.
LikeLike
Maria
>>Sex is for after marriage.
Is that the social norm in your country, or just your personal belief?
LikeLike
both
LikeLike
tastexperience, that’s a perfect example of the ad hominem fallacy if ever I saw one. (Btw, how do you know I’m an old maid? Never said nothin’ about my maidenly status. Intellecutally pretentious now, there’s an insult with legs…)
Most of Roissy’s readers, if you haven’t noticed this, are obsessed by the idea that women will exploit betas as provider husbands but give their juiciest love/sex to alphas. The notion of the alpha who is married and dumped for a more pliable husband doesn’t come into their worldview at all.
My suggestion was that this (alpha husband first, then beta husband) is a lot more plausible than beta husband first, then the alpha lovers/husbands that they seem to believe the men in these stories are likely to become. If you’ve actually read any of the previous comments on the subject, which seems doubtful (or else your reading comprehension is weak) you’ll have noticed that they repeat over and over again the assumption that the new men in these women’s lives are alphas.
LikeLike
How can he be an alpha AND a beta provider to the same person?
LikeLike
“But I forgot, the world is a big, bad scary place filled with cheating witches, beta boogeymen, and lizardmen lawyers with fangs.”
Did you read the article?
LikeLike
“The notion of the alpha who is married and dumped for a more pliable husband doesn’t come into their worldview at all. ”
—–
This isn’t true. Commenters here often talk about the woman who settles for a beta provider later in life after sowing her oats with alphas and getting frustrated or disillusioned with them.
LikeLike
Being a provider doesn’t automatically make a man a beta…and an alpha can certainly be a provider.
A traditional Patriarch with a traditional housewife and mother to his children can still be alpha in his sexual market value.
LikeLike
“A traditional Patriarch with a traditional housewife and mother to his children can still be alpha in his sexual market value.”
Very true. This happens all the time, or used to. In the USA, that kind of situation is becoming increasingly rare these days, though…almost to vanishing point.
LikeLike
The doctor has a pretty homely face, the wife was attractive.
She married him for the money, straight up.
Our divorce laws, which she knew about before the marriage, were why she married him in the first place.
SHE PROBABLY WALKED DOWN THE AISLE ON HER WEDDING DAY KNOWING SHE WAS GOING TO FUCK OTHER MEN DURING THE MARRIAGE. She never intended to get out of the game.
If she got what she deserved legally, which is joint custody and NO ALIMONY, NO CHILD SUPPORT, and only half-the accrued assets post-dated to the wedding date (half the increase in the couples net worth for the duration of the marriage be it ten years or fifteen years, etc.), believe me……………she’d think thrice about having an affair because it would only be a small payday as opposed to a large one.
Im very experienced in this area. I have several divorced friends and aquaintences who got clobbered in court. In every instance, the wife was doing the cheating and left the husband, taking a lot of his money, getting joint custody but still recieving child support (why in the fuck should he pay her any child support, he has the kids as much and usually more than she does???!!!!!).
If our divorce laws and child support laws were truly legally fair, men would have no problem with women, because as soon as they got bitchy in marriage the man would have no problem saying to her, “there is the door bitch, would you rather walk out or be carried out, either way, you are outta here”. She couldn’t legally rob him in court, decimating his financial value to other women whereby he’d be very free to find some other broad.
LikeLike
Before Patriarchy was demonized by the feminist cultural assault, it was commonly understood that marriage was the explicit exchange of a females productive ability for a man’s economic ability. She guaranteed that any children produced by the marriage where his, and he in turn agreed to support her and their offspring for life.
This is what marriage used to be, and alpha’s and beta’s alike entered into the agreement to make families.
The current state of affairs is basically dependent on beta males being totally unaware of how the feminist wrought changes have subverted the traditional social contract that was marriage, so that they can be successfully yoked like a beast of burden to support her while the wife can than resume her quest to fuck alpha’s while her beta ex subsidizes her “equality.”
LikeLike
anony just read the abstract of the study I linked to and concluded:
Your study addresses safe-sex, not capacity for long-term relationships.
Oh, really?
Then how do explain this:
1) The study is based on a large pool of data on short term and lifetime sex partners.
2) People with few lovers in the past year, had fewer lover over a life span and vice versa for sluts.
3) This has implications for safe sex practice AND the empirical likelihood of having more sex partners in the future based on one’s past.
Because: if people had many partners in the past, they are likely to get even more in the future (‘the rich get richer’ – I quoted from that article)
=> If you get in a relationship with a slut, she is likely to remain a slut
LikeLike
@z
when a couple marries, and has children, one spouse (a) may work part-time , or not at all for extended periods, perhaps 10-15 years. The other spouse (b) may continue to work with uninterrupted retirement benefits, continuing education, professional networking, and continued momentum professionally. Were they to divorce, spouse (a) would have lost momentum in earning potential. These are loses that can NEVER be made up. Do you think spouse (a ) should be recompensed for his/her sacrifices professionally to care for the children?
LikeLike
@11
fair enough. I didn’t pay to read the full text.
Was this true for manwhores too?
LikeLike
“The notion of the alpha who is married and dumped for a more pliable husband doesn’t come into their worldview at all.”
Yes, it does. The 35-year-old former hottie trades in her alpha lover for a more stable beta provider, and the alpha trades in the former hottie for a newer model. Everybody’s a winner. (Even the beta, since he at least has something.)
LikeLike
Dave from Hawaii –
Mahalo and welcome to the Ohana!
LikeLike
Joe T, Aloha no!
LikeLike
alias
“Most of Roissy’s readers, if you haven’t noticed this, are obsessed by the idea that women will exploit betas as provider husbands but give their juiciest love/sex to alphas. The notion of the alpha who is married and dumped for a more pliable husband doesn’t come into their worldview at all.”
if she’s married to the alpha when she’s young, then she is definitely giving him her juiciest love/sex. that’s the point i was originally making.
“tastexperience, that’s a perfect example of the ad hominem fallacy if ever I saw one.”
the ad hom was totally separate from my argument, and it wasn’t even an ad hom.
per your blog, you are an old maid.
and you are intellectually pretentious — you need to stop writing about yourself in the 3rd person, as if you were bob dole or something.
LikeLike
oops. meant to say “and it wasn’t even untrue”
LikeLike
Ricky Raw, you’ve got the sense of my last comment completely reversed, it seems. That may be my fault; I can see that there was some ambiguity in the way I put it.
Here’s part of what I was trying to say: some women marry alpha males, grow exhausted by them, and then turn to beta males to give them a rest from the wonderfulness (sarcasm) of the alphas. The idea that such women marry their alpha playmates is very important: it means that the women are not sighing in romantic agony because they can’t hook the alpha man they want. Instead, they’re leaving in anger because the alpha man they wanted turns out to be a royal pain to be married to and the beta looks like a better deal. Similar to what you said in a way – but with the distinct difference that the alpha is the one who gets dumped, rather than doing the dumping. And yes, this does happen. Seriously.
Of course, the other part of what I was trying to say is that the women in the stories Roissy and others cited here appeared to have dumped betas for other betas – not, as some here speculate, alphas (unless alpha behaviour is very different from what you all believe).
LikeLike
I suggest you look up the various meanings of the word “maid”, tastex. Then you might get it.
If the intended insult wasn’t relevant to your point (that I’m too stupid and naive to know what I’m talking about), then why did you bring it up?
I don’t invariably write about myself in the third person, and when I do, it’s because I’m trying to keep an impersonal tone – or else, in my “dialogues” between Clio and Musette, because I want to insert an element of playfulness into what might otherwise become – believe it or not – a too pretentious/pompous sounding discussion.
LikeLike
Seriously, why should anyone “contribute” to society? WTF does that mean? Help dumb ass NAMs in the ghetto, send a fucking laptop to Africa or “doing something” about global warming? Not my fucking problem.
I think we all know why the developing world is in such a sorry state — not enough Macbooks and COEXIST bumper-stickers.
We’ll get the SWPL crowd to donate their used ones — for the children in the Third World.
LikeLike
“Here’s part of what I was trying to say: some women marry alpha males, grow exhausted by them, and then turn to beta males to give them a rest from the wonderfulness (sarcasm) of the alphas.”
Much, much more commonly, young white urban women today serially date and fuck “alpha” type guys, then when they realize there aren’t nearly enough of these guys to go around so every gal to marry one, they reluctantly settle down with a reliable beta.
Then they proceed to fuck around behind the beta’s back with other alphas, and at some point, unceremoniously dump their beta husband when an alpha indicates he might be seriously interested.
Repeat and rinse.
By the way, note the hypocrisy and amorality in the above, clio.
LikeLike
@ Cannon’s Canon
a girl who’s had 10 monogamous relationships from 16 to 30 is both well-trained and stupid.
huh? how does that follow?
without overstating the instance, would you rather be a girl’s 11th faithful tryst or her 3rd guilty pleasure?
Depends on whether I want a relationship with the girl or just sex.
also, kill yourself.
is your argument really so weak that you have to append this, or are you just a neurotic who can’t have a civil discussion?
LikeLike
clio:
The idea that such women marry their alpha playmates is very important: it means that the women are not sighing in romantic agony because they can’t hook the alpha man they want. Instead, they’re leaving in anger because the alpha man they wanted turns out to be a royal pain to be married to and the beta looks like a better deal.
It’s more like this:
Women goes out and only fucks alphas. Some women are hot enough or happen to date guys who want to get married; these women marry their alpha guys.
Marriage happens and women immediately go to work on men with psychological warfare, aka testing him. Some guys who were alphas before get soft when they’re married and fail these tests. Women married to these guys either (a) ratchet up the attacks on the man until she’s at the point where she’s openly insulting to her man in public or (b) lose so much attraction that they decide to leave.
We’ve all seen plenty of (a) couples. When (b) happens, the woman walks out. Now she’s on the market but has a kid or two and is older and flabbier than she was before. Now her biological urges are to get a man around for those kids, so she marries a beta who’s glad to have her. She’s still ruled by those same urges and so she’s likely screwing around on the side whenever the mood strikes her (with guys who have stronger jaws).
This is a better (meaning closer to reality) story than “she gets tired of the alpha’s alpha ways”.
LikeLike
Marvellous Bastard is correct, but …
Neither men nor women can have it all their way.
The price men pay for the madonna/whore complex is an inability to model women’s actual behavior. The price women pay for the Alpha/Beta complex is ending up either a single mother or alone.
Most likely scenario for the 50 plus partner woman: sex drops off rapidly in her thirties as she ages out of attractiveness, till Betas ignore her forever. Either IVF like Martha Stewart’s daughter or nothing at all. Lots of cats.
Since pr0n and other stuff that substituted for real, attractive women for the beta provider can do so well, on into middle/old age. A guy who is beta wants sex, companionship, family, none of which he’s likely to find with a woman having 50+ partners (her real count, not 36).
The cost of lots of partners for women is ending up alone. Declining marriage rates and higher single motherhood bear this out, as do state-by-state stats from the CDC of single vs. married mothers (Utah unsurprisingly has the highest amount of married vs. unmarried births).
Women certainly can and have chosen to have lots of sex partners. But everything and I do mean EVERYTHING has it’s price, and ending up alone with no husband at least is one of them. Yeah a few women might win the lottery, but even a hot woman like Christie Brinkley gets cheated on at age 50 without a lifetime bond created in the mid or early twenties. Women delude themselves that having lots of sex doesn’t mean on average very little pair-bonding with whoever they might marry (and very quickly divorce).
The end: ending up old and alone.
LikeLike
I think a few posts back people were talking about the various denials that some women make when it comes to their affairs. This one, from the story above about the man who still has to pay child support to children who are not even his biologically, the product of an affair, is one of the best cases of denial you are going come across. This excuses her choice to have an affair, in her messed up mind:
“Ms. Cornelio had told the court that she did not know the identity of the twins’ biological father, saying she had no memory of an extramarital affair prior to their birth. She attributed the memory lapse to medication she was taking at the time”.
Give me a fucking break. Yes, men do get screwed up the ass when it comes to these sorts of things. I am sure her new lover is using this guy’s money quite well.
I prefer my freedom and independence to ever getting sucked into this form of state controlled madness and slavery. It just reminds me how much I despise so much of feminism. Sooner or later this madness will end. That probably won’t happen though until Islam finally takes over Canada through massive immigration and the uber-proceation of Muslim and other more traditionally minded third world cultured children compared to the enlightened Canadians of European ancestry who are slowly dying off. They tend to be less enlightened and forgiving about adultery in those more exotic societies that a lot of Westerners love to adore.
LikeLike
Joe T., I’m from an older generation and the model of female behaviour that you describe wasn’t yet very common when I was in my early 20s. I’m sure that it’s more common now, and I deplore it as much as you do, but I do find that there’s a little too much needless beta paranoia on this site.
My first issue, after all, was my bewilderment at the way people seemed to assume that the women in the stories here had left beta husbands for alphas. That was what didn’t make sense to me.
LikeLike
Roissy, start moderating posts to get these retards out of here. They’re ruining the locker room atmosphere. Furthermore, longtime readers all agree on the basics. We don’t need to debate with or defend ourselves against feminist interlopers.
LikeLike
ASDF
Don’t spoil the fun, sí?
LikeLike
“The end: ending up old and alone.”
That is how everyone ends up.
Honest, faithful women are at just as much risk to get jettisoned for “upgrades” as sluts are, ending up alone despite behaving as you would have them behave.
You guys act as though a woman being faithful is a talisman against any future hardship in life. And as if that faith will be rewarded in kind, even as you cite your intent to bang women on the side while your loyal, trusting, virginal-before-you wife raises your kids and bakes cookies.
Step into an old age home sometime. Neither marriage nor raising a family is any kind of guarantee of permanent happiness or continued companionship/support.
LikeLike
HA!!!
“Anony”
Let me put it to you this way.
I have three friends Im thinking of in particular (I have more divorced pals that that with more complicated situations) of whom worked with me at the same company who have gotten divorced in the past decade.
Every single one of them had a wife who had an affair and left the marriage. Every single one of them had multiple kids. One left for a guy she met on a boat party WITH her husband right there. One left for the asisstant softball coach of their daughter’s team. One left for a neighbor’s husband down the goddmaned street. THEY ALL LEFT THEIR LOVING FAITHFUL HUSBANDS TO BE WITH SOMEONE ELSE.
THE NEW MAN IN HER FUCKING LIFE IS “TAKING ON” THE RESPONSIBILITIES of those children by getting with the married woman in my opinion. HE SHOULD “take on the financial responsibility”. He wanted to fuck her, she wanted to fuck him? FINE, LET THEM PAY THE MONEY FOR IT. Why should the “left” husband have to subsidize her being a goddamned whore? He shouldn’t!!!!!!
The “new” guy wants her? Fine, the day they cohabitate under the same roof, the kids are HIS responsiblilty, not the ex-husband’s whom she LEFT to GO FUCK SOMEONE ELSE.
Two of these three cunts, had shitty “office girl” jobs that only paid about 400 a week anyway. Who gives a rats ass if they took off a few months post-delivery, the money they made didn’t add up to squat anyway. One of the ex-cunts in particular was put through college to become a psychologist for the state by her husband, and then she left him for a goddamned neighbor (get this, this guy’s wife literally had cancer and fought through it, only to see her husband leave her for my friend’s wife thereafter, amazing!). He paid for her to get educated, and then she leaves him knowing full well that she gets child support even though she only sought joint custody, and he even had to finish paying off her fucking car. BTW—-she got HALF his 401K that he worked for all those years.
If a woman leaves the marriage to be with another man, or the husband can prove he is leaving for infidelity, the wife “deserves” NOTHING from him. SHE broke the contract, not him.
If the husband is cheating on the wife, THEN she deserves some financial compensation (and I’d be generous here, making him pay dearly for breaking up his own family and damaging his own children).
If we are going to continue to FUND women cheating on their husbands and taking their kids and their money (and their houses, and their 401Ks and their cars, and their pets, and their furniture, all of which they paid for), we are going to see marriage pretty much continue to come to an end, and our birthrates fall even further down to zero at which point we become like Europe, which each successive generation only a little more than half the size of the preceeding generation leading to either wholesale immigration from the rest of the planet here to buttress the economy or just a general dying out of the population. WOMEN CANNOT continue to have their cake and eat it too, funded by ex-husbands. No rational man would ever get married under these circumstances unless he was sure he was marrying a Jesus-Freak who thought she’d burn in hell if she got a divorce (what two of the men in the story above have done in the last decade, both are now quite happily married despite the fact that their new wives dont swallow or let them fuck them in the ass and all that jazz, and they have to sit in church and listen to boring sermons every Sunday, etc.).
Lets flip the scrip though ANONY.
Lets say the law is that a man can leave his wife for his sectretary and HE GETS THIS KIDS, and SHE HAS TO PAY HIM CHILD SUPPORT, and HE GETS HALF HER 401K or Roth IRA, and SHE HAS TO PAY OFF HIS EXISTING CAR NOTE. Would that be fair? NO?
Why Jesustittyfuckingchrist not ANONY? Its the same thing men face when their wives have affairs. No fault of his own, and he financially is about to take a huge hit, but the new man in her life pays nothing (and INDEED GETS TO LIVE IN HIS HOUSE IN TWO OF THE ABOVE EXAMPLES). One of these “new” men in particular really gets under my skin. Dead end job, 4 kids of his own in three previous marriages, broke as all get out, was living at home with his mother (no money, couldn’t even afford apartment rent), picks off my pal’s wife (this guy is nice looking, ponytail, tatoos, about what you’d expect).
Guess what? He is now DIVORCED from my frined’s ex-wife. He was cheating on her with another young hottie, bringing women he’d meet on the internet into her house (really my friend’s house as he is the one who paid for it). She caught him, was “devastated”.
Here is the beauty. She had to give HIM money when he divorced her to be with the new woman he met on the internet. He had brought NOTHING financially to the marriage and had nothing to lose (I dont think that shitty minivan he drives would be worth much, but it was his only asset other than that ponytail and his evidently thrilling tatoos). She wrecked her marriage for a white-trash player with an earring and it only lasted four years. He ex-husband, is having to live with a Jesus-freak, but he is happily married, gets pussy whenever he wants it, and is silently laughing while his kids tell her how much they hate mom. Would have FAIR divorce laws kept this from happening. Yup, sure would have.
The blue state birthrate for whites in particular is down to almost European levels. In Europe, Spain had gotten down to something like 1.2 children per female. 2.1 is considered the replacement birthrate. This is almost halving the size of each succeeding generation. Its like watching a nation die because only half the people have children. Did you know that almost one out of four women never give birth now? Smaller economies on the way, less prosperity, way too many retirees to support for too few workers in the economy. Its going to be a mess over there unless they bring in new people—-and they are from Arabia. It looks like the Caliphate will get their wish for a Muslim Spain again, by default. Why? Spain has a ridiculously feminist government that railroads men. The result? No kids, despite the state basically pleading with people to have children. Italy and Germany are other countries with absymally low-birthrates. Why are men “afraid” to be fathers? The financial consequences of divorce, thats why.
This might last for another 30 years, but it WILL end I assure you.
Meanwhile women wonder why so many men simply wont marry, but playboy around “forever”.
LikeLike
“I prefer my freedom and independence to ever getting sucked into this form of state controlled madness and slavery.”
Amazingly, some women feel this way, too.
LikeLike
anon,
“Nah G, I just think you are a free rider.”
Only when surfing sick reef breaks and points in aqua blue tropical waters.
“You put down others who contribute to society,”
I said earlier I respect doctors. But to the topic of Roissy’s post, I think they generally speaking have no Game. Which is true and many posters agree with here.
“yet you take advantage of everything society gives you.”
Its the American way. Get used to it.
“10,000 years ago”
What are you? A Paleontologist? So you are a doctor. Now I see how your feelings were hurt by my comments.
“you would have been cast out by the tribe, or killed, for acting the way you are now.”
Or more likely, traveled from tribe to tribe swooping all the fly girls.
“beta monkey trying to sneak a root with the alpha’s harem”
The only root I mess with is the John the Conqueroo.
“in the modern world there is no alpha to teach you a violent lesson in earning your keep”
My guard is always up. Rule #1 protect yourself at all times.
I stay at war a lot like Anwar Sadat.
– MPM
LikeLike
King Kong:
Kinda like real estate agents and U.S. businessmen don’t you agree?
Sorry I’m late getting back to you here. If you mean that like this doctor, other professionals can also be beta, most certainly.
Having money can confer some confidence if you have your head in the right place and the rest of your game together, but as they say money doesn’t bring happiness (I’d qualify that as “money alone doesn’t…”). One can cultivate themselves and become alpha without the career success that comes along with it, and in fact if you have the alpha attitude career success is more likely to result as dominance in the bedroom or in the workplace both confer advantages. You don’t want to be the “go-to beta guy” that Sgt. Raymond discussed in his recent post on bulletproofpimp.com but instead want to be the fat and happy manager delegating work to them, or better yet be self employed and drop out of the corporate race altogether. Far and away the asset that distinguishes the ruling class from the proles in America is business equity, not salary. You want the full benefit of your productivity.
LikeLike
Yes, amazingly they feel this way despite the numerous evidence of hundreds of thousands of countless examples where women make out like bandits in divorce, and they still feel like marriage would somehow be a detriment to them?
The only women that feel like marriage is a trap, are the women who are at least honest enough to admit they don’t want to make a commitment to being monogamous.
LikeLike
Seeking Alpha,
“Dude was hyping Wale before he got the Freshman 2009 XXL cover. Guru is classic shit. That Shyheim find was gold.
If you don’t like hip-hop, whatever, but he posts top quality hip-hop.”
Glad you like the beats. And that you are tasteful enough to appreciate.
——-
Although the hate is nothing new and has zero effect (if you don’t have haters, then you are a nobody).
People should keep the comments on Roissy’s topic instead of hating me.
It will get you nowhere.
Which is probably where your at right now.
I wonder if they are all the say poster under different names.
I sure hope not.
More haters the better.
Hate is the new Love.
– MPM
LikeLike
“Amazingly, some women feel this way, too.”
Just pay your own way and encourage your sisters to do the same.
LikeLike
alphadominance,
“or better yet be self employed and drop out of the corporate race altogether.”
Probably the best piece of advice anyone has ever posted on here.
“Far and away the asset that distinguishes the ruling class from the proles in America is business equity, not salary. You want the full benefit of your productivity.”
True. And salary vs time.
Making $250,000 and working a few hours a day is preferable to making $500k and working like a slave for some jerkoff who owns the company.
– MPM
LikeLike
“Yes, amazingly they feel this way despite the numerous evidence of hundreds of thousands of countless examples where women make out like bandits in divorce, and they still feel like marriage would somehow be a detriment to them?”
Yes. Because those of us who are honest would die before manipulating a relationship in such a way. Even if there was money to be made.
“The only women that feel like marriage is a trap, are the women who are at least honest enough to admit they don’t want to make a commitment to being monogamous.”
No, some of us are perfectly happy to commit to being monogamous, but don’t see the point in devoting our lives to a guy who, in all probability, will either cheat on us or leave us completely the moment he finds someone “better.” We are better off earning our own way and staying out of the players’ ways. Even if that means staying alone.
Being alone is not even remotely the worst thing that can happen to a person. Ask anyone who’s been stuck in a bad relationship.
LikeLike
“Just pay your own way and encourage your sisters to do the same.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying!
LikeLike
I have to say, though, that all the talk about betas’ wives leaving them for alphas, assumes that the betas have wives that the alphas want to bone. Maybe if the beta lucks out and marries out of his league, or if the alpha just wants to be a dick. But I can’t imagine too many alpha guys bothering with 40-year-olds who were 6’s back in the day.
LikeLike
ASDF, I’m not a feminist (I think you must be talking about me in that little screech of yours). Plus I’ve been commenting on Roissy’s site longer than you have, unless you’re using a new pseudonym.
Clio
LikeLike
Joe T., I’m from an older generation and the model of female behaviour that you describe wasn’t yet very common when I was in my early 20s.
You should write a post on this. Most people in the blogosphere are Boomers or Gen X-ers, both of whom as adolescents or young adults faced an uproar of feminist hysteria (early-mid ’70s and late ’80s – mid ’90s). We’re curious what life was like for young people between the wars, so to speak.
Do your same-age guy friends agree with you?
LikeLike
AliasClio —
It doesn’t matter if “years ago women did not act like this.”
Today they do.
Bottom line — women in their twenties are desirable as mates to men in their twenties and thirties, women in their thirties are desireable to men in their forties and fifties as mates. That’s it.
Put in lots of sex partners, and the women any age are desirable only as no strings attached sex partners. Period. And enough of them are perceived that way and nearly ALL male behavior will be predicated on the fact of lots female infidelity/cheating and partners. That’s it as well.
Anon — BS arguments. Honest faithful women who CHOOSE WISELY on mates will have far less risk of ending up alone when they are old.
Women can have: sex, glamor, excitement, passion, status, power, dominance in a mate, or faithfulness, loyalty, compassion, etc.
THEY CANNOT HAVE BOTH.
Women WANT IT ALL and CANNOT HAVE IT. Simple as that. Women complain ENDLESSLY on being cheated on when they choose guys who are PLAYERS.
It is as just as important for a woman to choose, and choose EARLY what kind of man she wants as a husband. A man’s friends, interests, job, parents, actions towards others, all reveal his character. Jennifer Aniston thought being famous and pretty would insulate her from any risk of a Brad Pitt cheating on her. She would have been better advised to marry early, some faithful “beta” type guy who would have worshipped the ground she walked on.
No, he would not have excited her, made her passionate, or generated huge sexual desire. On the other hand, she’d be looking at a loyal and faithful husband who would stick by her when she failed to excite the desires of others.
Yes being alone is the worst thing that can happen, being old and sick, no kids (or any that care), poverty stricken (don’t think for a second that there is enough money to pay for a continued Welfare State, which depended on extraordinary good times) and defenseless.
Women make to my mind a profoundly stupid trade-off, thinking their beauty will last along with their power over men. They want the hot Alpha dominant guy, and will have fantasies of having him and then the beta guy too who will be pathetically happy to marry them. Not so. The Beta guy will prefer to stay with pr0n collection, and become a crotchety old loner guy, than a woman with all those Alpha sex partners.
Needless to say, when women get past their age of attractiveness (somewhere between 35-45 based on genetics, diet, exercise, etc.) and become invisible and not mattering at all to men, they have only themselves to blame.
Neither men nor women can have it all. Women largely created this new system and the life they will lead (alone, lonely, no one to defend them or care for them) is what they have sown. Traditional marriage and the nuclear family reined in men too, particularly the dominant Alpha guy who was restricted at most to a very discreet mistress. Yes it was a constriction of women’s ability to have sex with lots of dominant men and forced them to marry Beta guys. It worked reasonably well in producing a stable, prosperous society where everyone had a stake and few died alone and lonely.
[Men can’t have it all either.]
LikeLike
{*standing ovation*}
Yet another excellent post, Whiskey.
LikeLike
That woman who couldn’t remember having the affair struck a chord with me. An unfaithful girlfriend of mine couldn’t remember why she had her affair years later. She thought maybe he threatened her or something. Couldn’t remember. She was certainly not trying to spare my feelings.
Remember this: Women are amoral and untrustworthy. At least as bad as men. And, the law greatly favors them in any legal dispute. They have almost no legal burdens if they screw around in a marriage. So, why not?
Many women, being foolish, narcissistic, and illogical, seem to like the imbalance in the law. They just don’t seem to get the idea that the imbalance in the law greatly reduces their value as a marriage partner to any man (and, indeed, a lesbian partner, if the lesbian partner is going to be the provider.) They just don’t get it.
So, the reason why men get married? I think men tend to live in a testosterone haze.
Anyway, the nail was hit on the head by the guy who noted that shooting down an airplane is an accomplishment to brag about, but for a woman to brag about getting laid is beyond understanding. It would be like a guy bragging about how many times women have turned him down, or how many times he jerks off in one night or in a month. Like, such girls just miss the point. Their behavior is demeaning, and they brag about it. Ugh.
I notice a lot of posters worry about Western Civilization and all that. Please don’t. Western civilization will take care of itself. You forget that the Arab world is part of Western civilization, and they really reproduce. So do the Mormons. Darwin will sort all this stuff out, without any reference for Political Correctness. The future will be way more religious than our current era, if current trends continue. As soon as our current prosperity ends, the birth rate will shoot up anyway for everybody (assuming the govt stops mailing out welfare checks and women have to negotiate with men for material support.)
LikeLike
As soon as our current prosperity ends, the birth rate will shoot up anyway for everybody
If general prosperity comes to end, the high IQ will simply cease having children for fear of impoverishing themselves with children they can’t afford to raise properly. The low IQ will simply keep producing as before.
The Beta guy will prefer to stay with pr0n collection
One should ask if beta males will be perpetually isolated males or if they’ll enter into “friendships” with female friends similar to what I have with my friends. Hell, there’s enough beta saps like myself to feel pity for the single moms even if they banged the alphas…
LikeLike
Why is unlubed anal sex such an important sexual goal? I really can’t wrap my mind around this. It sounds downright unappealing to me.
LikeLike
“Hell, there’s enough beta saps like myself”
Although beta saps are legion, thankfully there aren’t any other beta saps like David Alexander.
LikeLike
If general prosperity comes to end, the high IQ will simply cease having children for fear of impoverishing themselves with children they can’t afford to raise properly.
Alternately, when prosperity comes to an end people worry less about trivial things like yuppie status markers, and make babies instead. Even the high-IQ folks, if they have a decent enough family support network.
It’s often the case that hardship produces spikes in fertility. One example is that during the 1970s in Communist Poland birthrates went down somewhat (except among the large rural population) as the government borrowed massive amounts of money from the West to improve the standard of living, provide consumer goods, etc.
But the 70s came to a crash in 1980, followed by massive strikes, which were followed by the Martial Law crackdown. As I recall from my pre-teen perspective at the time, life was pretty hard. People in the cities literally didn’t know what they were going to eat the next day.
Anyway, during that Marital Law period the country registered a huge baby boom. I believe the only real baby boom that Europe has seen since the 1950s.
Also, Iraq (which was very much a middle class country under Hussein) experienced a massive baby boom during the early years of the US invasion, when things were chaoic and dangerous for everyone.
Based on this patten, a massive crash is just what might be needed to repair the West.
LikeLike
Agnostic, I don’t really have any same age male friends any more, not since I finished graduate school. So I don’t know what they’d say. What I remember of my undergraduate days is that the women were mostly trying for monogamy, with few exceptions.
In those days it seemed that it was men who were uninterested in monogamy. Even shy awkward men were holding out for the perfect woman, in the expectation – not so unrealistic, after all – that they’d grow less nerdy with age and experience, and be able to attract prettier women.
That’s an issue that never comes up here but it used to be a real problem for women – the nice guy types who nevertheless refused commitment to their girlfriends in the hope of finding someone better. A beta male who has the option of sex with attractive women (not many were fat back then) is as unlikely to be in a hurry to get married as any alpha. Beta males did have quite a bit of sex, it seemed – I was friends with any number of them who did, in my residence days.
Frankly, I think that what happened is that women started to tell themselves “All right, if I’m going to have sexual relationships with men who don’t want marriage or any kind of commitment, I might as well go for the sexy bad boys.” And now it seems to have become the social norm for women to live this way – if I can trust that the men who post here aren’t exaggerating. Of course another problem is that betas are more inept than they used to be. I once knew many men who had no Game, but who were still quite capable of scoring pretty girlfriends.
Clio
LikeLike
some faithful “beta” type guy who would have worshipped the ground she walked on
Per some commenters here, isn’t a beta male who worships a woman in such a fashion a chump who will lose his woman to a more dominant male? Even if she sticks around, one would suspect that cuckholdry may develop.
Even the high-IQ folks, if they have a decent enough family support network.
But why would I want to be a burden to my family in order to reproduce and have children? Why should I as a parent support my idiot children when I’d much rather prefer to retire in peace.
Anyway, during that Marital Law period the country registered a huge baby boom.
Either Poles are a magically stupid ethnic group with an average IQ of 40, or this was simply a fluke. One would suspect that the inability to eat would curb one’s desire to consider having children, especially if there’s little faith in the future.
OTOH, if one is poor, there’s little opportunity cost to having children since you’re not losing much, but to “cheap” people like myself, even the little opportunity costs are worth “saving”. Plus, when times are touch, sex is a cheap activity and birth control and condoms become “expensive” options.
LikeLike
“Yes being alone is the worst thing that can happen, being old and sick, no kids (or any that care), poverty stricken (don’t think for a second that there is enough money to pay for a continued Welfare State, which depended on extraordinary good times) and defenseless.”
Women who marry men even marginally older than they are will likely spend a significant amount of their later lives alone. Marrying early won’t save you from divorce, or a partner’s infidelity — or death. There’s no way for a woman to know when she marries in her mid-20s that the husband to whom she is faithful will nevertheless ditch her when Time marches on. Or is it her fault for choosing poorly when that happens?
People change. This “if you lock in your choice early enough, you’ll be safe” fantasy is just that: a fantasy. People change over time, and not just physically.
Women would be better served to make themselves as financially independent as possible, starting as early as possible. Which doesn’t necessarily preclude marrying…and never marrying doesn’t necessarily preclude reproducing — although having children for the purpose of having some form of protection in your old age is a risky gamble, at best. Visit your local retirement home, if you doubt it.
LikeLike
Either Poles are a magically stupid ethnic group with an average IQ of 40, or this was simply a fluke.
Poland’s average IQ is third-highest in Europe, after Germany and Holland. Maybe it was a fluke, but then again, there does seem to be a pattern of prosperity causing a drop in birthrates and depression in spiking them.
OTOH, if one is poor, there’s little opportunity cost to having children since you’re not losing much, but to “cheap” people like myself, even the little opportunity costs are worth “saving”. Plus, when times are touch, sex is a cheap activity and birth control and condoms become “expensive” options.
That’s probably a big part of it. Like I said earlier, loss of prosperity causes people to care less about yuppie status markers
LikeLike
Clio,
Women screech. I registered a complaint. But for what it’s worth, I wasn’t referring to you, but rather the mass of people who seem to have popped up lately as a result of that jezebel article.
LikeLike
Like I said earlier, loss of prosperity causes people to care less about yuppie status markers
Still, why would one want to punish children to living in a world where they’ll suffer in a difficult economic environment? Why would you want your kids to grow up with possibly less than what you had when growing up? Maybe I’m a materialistic whore who simply sees things differently. One must remember that I freak out about my kids potentially “regressing to the mean” or the children living in a world where HBD is common knowledge.
Poland’s average IQ is third-highest in Europe, after Germany and Holland.
Seriously? Chopin, Curie, and a Pope, and yet the stereotype of I have Poland is a bleak Eastern Europe hellhole with misery that “lags” behind the Czech Republic, Hungary, or Slovenia. It’s not on my list of places to visit…
LikeLike
Still, why would one want to punish children to living in a world where they’ll suffer in a difficult economic environment?
I think that the preconditions of cultural coherence, which you often find in homogeneous countries, and a lack of perceived means of social advancement, somehow cause people to not care about the opportunity costs of having kids.
Procreating is after all somethign that people do naturally. Maybe being unburdened of material expectations, people feel more free.
LikeLike
Roissy, men are JUST as much amoral as (most ;)) women. A man that can upgrade a doting wife and the mother of his children all due to a midlife crisis seems pretty damn amoral to me (just one example). In this particular situation, yes, this kidney stealing lady is quite the animal but in reality women and men get screwed over ALL the time. It’s not one more than the other. It’s truly very sad, but nevertheless true!
LikeLike
2nd year medical student here. You people have really hit the nail on the head with what’s been said about doctors and medicine. I, too, thought going to med school would make me a hot commodity with the ladies. Granted, I’m not a doctor yet, but so far it’s gotten me nowhere.
I didn’t know about the seduction community until a couple of months ago. Read The Game over Christmas break. Now I almost wish that instead of bothering with med school, I’d just gotten an easy day job and spent my spare time learning PUA techniques.
It’s also true that medicine is going feminine. Fully 50% of US medical students are female, and women now dominate certain specialties like pediatrics. I look around the lecture hall every day and imagine all the men who could be there, looking forward to future jobs that could comfortably support a family, occupying spots which instead went to these “liberated, empowered” women most of whom will eventually move to part-time work or quit entirely when they have their token kid.
LikeLike
bellabellaisinhella-
“Roissy, men are JUST as much amoral as (most 😉 ) women. A man that can upgrade a doting wife and the mother of his children all due to a midlife crisis seems pretty damn amoral to me”
The difference is that men acknowledge this behavior as immoral. Ex, John Edwards. Publicly humiliated for cheating on his sick wife.
Women, on the other hand, are endlessly excused. Example, your post. (“Buuuuut men do it toooo”).
The result of this is that it seems that women don’t really see anything wrong with basically anything women choose to do.
LikeLike
Really good looking women are usually skanks. It’s culturally sanctioned in China, actually. Over there, a very attractive woman is expected to play the field with plenty of men as long as she’s still got it. Kind of a democratic sexuality, one could say.
Better looking people of both genders have usually had more sexual partners. Probably more STDs, too.
For women in the 8+ range, the median number of sexual partners is probably an order of magnitude higher than average. The same goes for men, but the deviation is not quite that extreme in their case.
The odd thing is, I have found extremely attractive women to be easier than marginally attractive ones. Perhaps they have little to worry about when it comes to diluting sexual value, because they are that close to irresistible.
LikeLike
If any of you couldn’t get thru z’s longwinded rant, here is a two-line summary:
Husband cheats on wife: courts make him pay
Wife cheats on husband: courts make him pay
For further elaboration, see Glenn Sacks’ site.
LikeLike
Sounds like SEP is scared. It’s ok to be scared. You’ve got all the other males here to give you manhugs.
LikeLike
Steve Johnson
Listen sweetie, don’t put words in my mouth. My post was NOT about excusing women so take your pain and direct it far far away from me, k?
LikeLike
Bella, shut up you femnazi bitch. Steve Johnson knew exactly what he said. You deserve a taste of the back of my hand. Women do get more excused than men from morality. You cry about being raped (even when you deserve it and asked for it), and then expect us to accomodate to your every whim. Understand, you privileged white slut?
LikeLike
Anon/Clio —
First, you’re penciling in behavior from ages ago to now. Let me assure you this is not the case, young women today do not aim for monogamy but playing the field with as many dominant males as possible. The men you refer to may well also be reacting to women’s general playing the field or too many partners to pair bond.
Women “worthy” of commitment will get commitment. Women of your acquaintance were quite likely pursuing men of equal or higher status/value/attractiveness. The “nice guy” types were quite likely well aware that they were partner 15 or something, or a notably second choice.
That you knew men who had no game but scored pretty girlfriends is not a measure of ineptness. What, somehow genetically men were made more inept with women? No, it is a screaming arrow pointing at MASSIVE change in women’s selection. To sexy bad boys (itself a choice of no real desire for long term relationships).
And YES, if a woman gets cheated on, it’s highly likely it’s because she CHOSE poorly. Want to date George Clooney? Get prepared to get cheated on. Women want the impossible, the hot sexy sports car that is also reliable. A Paul Newman, a hot, dominant, attractive guy who was faithful. Of course, guys like that are both rare and marry Joanne Woodward. Newsflash — ladies 99.99999% of you are not Joanne Woodward class. I’d assume the same percentage of men are not Paul Newman class either.
Moreover, people don’t change basic character. A man who is loyal, and marries a woman who is “above” him in looks/attractiveness, who has it as Paul Newman put it, “why go out for hamburger when you have Filet Mignon at home” will quite likely never cheat. Yes, it takes more than looking at the hot bartender during a drunken haze to determine this, women’s first impressions are usually wrong on all accounts (screening out potential loyal/faithful husbands and screening in cads).
But women want it ALL and get frustrated with reality. They are also surface driven in their selections (instead of being more choosy, investigating potential mates and sex partners closer, demanding faithfulness/loyalty before sex). Yes of course women rationally should support themselves, and pursue education. That’s not incompatible with settling for the best man (as opposed to a perfect fantasy of the faithful bad boy) available early (mid to early twenties). Sarah Palin not Teri Hatcher.
If women WANT faithful husbands they are certainly available. But they are unlikely to be found among “hot” bad boys and as men age, they become less likely to commit to a woman of the same age (simple biology). They won’t be as attractive, are likely to be nerdy, and other women won’t want them too.
Bella — the guy who dumps his wife for a hotter, younger model was the “hot” guy all the other women were drooling over. He was the same guy. The guy who would have stuck with the woman would likely have impressed none of her friends. He’d be Darcy, not Wickingham. But that requires more thought than “he’s hot, he’s tonight.”
It was likely entirely predictable from the start (the guy would dump his wife). Don’t complain when you get what you want. Ferarris are hardly good grocery getters or commuters. Toyotas don’t turn heads.
[It was also likely entirely predictable that cheating wives would in fact cheat. Guys need to be realistic too, in their choices, and investigate potential mates thoroughly. Their friends, family, past relationships, number of relationships/partners, attitudes towards men, life, children, etc.]
LikeLike
Anonymous:
“Women who marry men even marginally older than they are will likely spend a significant amount of their later lives alone. Marrying early won’t save you from divorce, or a partner’s infidelity — or death. There’s no way for a woman to know when she marries in her mid-20s that the husband to whom she is faithful will nevertheless ditch her when Time marches on. Or is it her fault for choosing poorly when that happens?”
A couple of points:
1. As to the husband being more likely to die first, so what? I think you are missing the real meaning of “dying alone.” You’re being too literal. The point is that if a woman has enjoyed a lifetime relationship and raised a stable family, she will more than likely be surrounded by loving children, grandchildren and so forth in her later years, even if the husband died some years before. That’s not so bad. It’s the difference between a full life and an empty life, between good memories and bad. Dying surrounded by cats, on the other hand, seems pretty sad. Remember, the cat isn’t licking your face in the morning because he likes you. He’s checking to see if he’s in for a big meal on that one morning when you finally don’t wake up. He’s patient. lol
2. As to the possibility of divorce, sure, that can happen (obviously). But, as whiskey noted, if she chooses wisely, it’s much less likely to happen. And, ironically, it’s much MORE likely to happen to the extent that society has become dominated by views like yours. In a healthy society where relationships are treated seriously, instead of a world of disposable partners and musical chairs, the prospects for lifetime relationships are much stronger. Basically, you are complaining about poison…and then recommending even more poison. Liberal “culture” (gag) has made divorce and abandonment more acceptable and widespread – so you recommend an approach the leads to more of the same. That may be a coping mechanism for a bad situation, but it’s certainly not a solution.
That’s the deadly nature of our modern shitculture – it feeds on itself. Bad money drives out good. Your views make sense in a shitculture, as do those of the players. I don’t plan on marrying either. Not ruling it out definitely, but I’m very skeptical. Nobody wants to be a sucker. So more and more people behave in a way that makes serious relationships harder and harder, which creates even more bad incentives (as people look around and see so many relationships failing, and so many bad behaviors rewarded, at least in the short run), and the death spiral continues. The only answer is to remove the shitculture, root and branch. Otherwise, the perverse incentives and the enormous destruction that results will continue. At a certain point, reform and tree pruning are no longer going to work. I believe we are not only at that point, but past it.
LikeLike
Mu’Min,
I think you and T are probably right about the blue collar/professional thing. One advantage that professional guys *should* have is a somewhat longer shelf life on the dating circuit. But, as a professional myself, I’ll be damned if I see many using it. A professional degree is no substitute for having a pair.
Rock on,
Ryder
LikeLike
“What, somehow men were made more inept with women?”
Whiskey, first, my last comment was explicitly directed towards discussing a change in social behaviour over the last 25 years. There have been many such changes. One of them is that young woman choose men more carelessly than they once did.
I suggested that one reason this changed (and of course it isn’t the only one) is that women responded to men’s increasing eagerness to play the field and delay marriage by deciding to do the same themselves. Thus their decision to choose partners to have fun with, rather than to marry.
Another reason that women may have turned away from betas, I said, is that betas themselves grew less sociable and more inept. Why do you find this so hard to believe? Young people of both sexes grow up more over-protected than ever these days, and many betas in their early 20s have never gone on a date, given a party, or held a job that wasn’t a middle-class sinecure. So yes, it’s not unreasonable to say that they’re more inept with women.
Clio
LikeLike
Is it possible that the average woman is obese? If that’s the case I applaud them for getting that much. Also, isn’t the average woman unable to orgasm and doesn’t care about it? If that’s the case them I can understand them not caring about sex. Isn’t the average women trying to convince themselves that they are nice girls, if that’s the case then maybe they might shrink the average number of times they slept with someone to the amount of relationships they considered seriously. Plus doesn’t the average person live out in the middle of nowhere?
For reals, I think this is funny.
LikeLike
Oh I also suspect that the average man lies about the amount of time he has sex by including the amount of times he spent jacking off with picturing the girl.
LikeLike
Joe T.
CCR is meh,…cross the river and go to one of the clubs in the district instead.
LikeLike
David Alexander:
Still, why would one want to punish children to living in a world where they’ll suffer in a difficult economic environment? Why would you want your kids to grow up with possibly less than what you had when growing up?
The Instinct For Life aka Will To Power will never be completely extinguished among a critical subset of the population, no matter how “rational” the reasons for abstaining may appear to be.
Maybe I’m a materialistic whore who simply sees things differently.
No, you’re what Nietzsche called a “Last Man”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_man
LikeLike
When I heard about this kidney case I knew Roissy would be on top of it. THREE sexual partners for American women? Roissy, you lose credibility with this. NO remotely attractive woman hits the age of 22 with less than 5 sex partners nowadays, unless she’s religious or something. Especially in urban areas, women start slutting around in their early 20’s at the latest. It’s at the point where guys will accept a chick who’s still in single digits, rather than demanding a virgin like they could 40 years ago.
Whiskey as usual has good points. It is astounding how many men are still willing to shack up with the aging single mother or alpha-fucker types. I want ALL men to get a backbone, and repeat the following: If she didn’t want me when she was 25, I sure as hell don’t want her when she’s 35.
To all the med students – I feel ya, I’m in law school, probably somewhat similar – half female, smart, “liberated” women, etc. Though I’d bet law girls are more bitchy and trashy on average than med girls. Since we are surrounded by mostly betas, it’s time for us to use our situation to test out game strategies.
LikeLike
You forget that the Arab world is part of Western civilization
No, it’s not.
LikeLike
Re: Clio’s point earlier about women leaving alpha husbands for beta affairs…
Yes, this does happen, but my impression is that these affairs are short lived and the women eventually return. This is in contrast to the family wreckage frequently left behind when wifey leaves beta hubby for alpha cock. I suspect in the former case the wife is subconsciously using the affair to teach her husband a “lesson” (hoping he gets jealous), whereas in the latter case the fire went out in the marriage long before she ever spread for her personal trainer.
This reminds me of another point I made here before but it bears repeating…
Women cheat in two broad cases:
1 – Woman manages to snag the brass ring of an alpha.
Elation at first, eventually leading to quiet desperation if she is unable to completely betaize him and own his balls. The husband may be a hard-charging go-getter, always on the make for the next big contract or business venture. Sure, his alphatude makes her wet and she loves the sex, but cries softly to herself when hubby quickly zips up to get back to work. She will wistfully long for those romantic days back when he courted her before their marriage. In these situations, she may very well have an affair with a beta type, at least the kind who is very romantic and lovey-dovey, in order to get that emotional fix of having a worshipful man wrapped around her finger. These are the affairs often condoned by people who see it as the woman “finding herself” or leaving emotionally “””abusive””” husbands. The Lifetime Movie Of The Week. A Very Special Oprah Book Club Pity Party.
2 – Woman marries boring beta provider after slutting it up in college. I don’t need to go into detail with this one as we all beat it to death on this blog. Basically, after having entered into a “sensible” marriage with all the passion of a business negotiation, she starts to get an itch for that old alpha cock. She needs that excitment and she will find it in her personal trainer or The G Manifesto. Hubby walks in on her riding the baloney pony. I suspect this scenario is the more common of the two in today’s world.
The interesting thing is that women almost never fess up to their reasons for cheating in the second case. Instead, they have learned to co opt the sympathy that is engendered in the first scenario and so will often cynically use that defense, i.e., “feeling unloved”, as an all-purpose smokescreen to hide the real reasons for the affair: need for excitement and alpha-cock.
Getting back to Clio’s point: I think you are right that things have changed. I think the reason for this is that back in the day (say, before the 60’s) there wasn’t as sharp a distinction between “dads” and “cads” as we have now. Sure, there were alphas and betas, but back then the alphas were more the solid, honorable, military or friendly jock type. You might say they were “Alpha Providers.”
I suppose that with technology came specialization in both industry *and* male gender roles. Now we have this huge chasm between emasculated, henpecked cubicle-dwellers, vs. the wild “bad boys” and their back-slapping, smooth-talking salesmen brothers.
OK I need to hit the sack. I’m out.
LikeLike
Some thoughts to men in professions being infiltrated by women:
The downside:
Expect the average income of your profession to drop. Expect to see a decline in the prestige of your profession. Expect more, much more, irrationality in your profession. Eg. I am in medicine. The advent of female breast surgeons and female oncologists has resulted in a completely irrational, emotionally based approach to breast cancer. Really. It’s mad. I used to beat my head against the wall on this issue. The patients and the female doctors follow their feelings more than the facts. All the male doctors agree on this. (Doctors also follow the money.) Ridiculous. Now, I just nod and smile. It’s no skin off my nose.
The upside:
Men remaining in that profession will become more valuable as the number of men in the profession falls. There are some things most women just can’t do, like think logically or do math. Women are good rule followers, but have a very hard time getting outside the box. Women also have more distractions than men outside of work. And, most women won’t support a full time home maker. Therefore, in a head to head competitive battle, a man has the advantage. Men also have the psychological advantage of knowing that for them failure professionally is unforgivable, whereas for a woman she often can just “sacrifice” her career for family.
Anyway, I would prefer not to have females in my profession, but they are here, and it’s not all bad. I am certain to be seen as more valuable to my employer because of my male gender. I don’t have a uterus, for example, and don’t have anybody to support me if I feel like not working for a while. Compare sick time taken by women and men. No contest in my work place. The men just never get sick, except the occasional heart attack. The women are constantly getting sick or going to the doctor. Work the system, whatever system you are in, to your advantage.
Now, about hard times and high IQ people not having children. I think in hard times the children of low IQ people just don’t survive, at least not in cold, inhospitable climates. Maybe in the tropics where there is a lot of low hanging fruit the low IQ’s might prosper, but, imagine living in Maine with an IQ of 75 and no welfare or charity. In hard times, high IQ people will see the obvious benefits of an economic alliance with a member of the opposite sex. Children are crucial for your old age, and not so old age. Think joy. Again, try to imagine a world without welfare checks. I can. You are reliant upon family in such a world, not govt.
LikeLike
You call that a “psychological advantage?”
Looks more like a liability to me.
LikeLike
Ambitions Of A Rydah,
What up Chief? Yea, what you said is what I *try* to school Dave Alex about: if he thinks that him getting a degree “good job” is suddenly gonna transform him into Superman, he’s seriously mistaken. I know ex-cons who are gettin’ more ass than Princeton and MIT grads.
And, you know what, since we’re applying Occam’s Razor in a brutal fashion, a lot of the handwringing on the part of the so-called “betters” is really just plain ole Hatin’. They can’t *stand* the fact that dem Proles (ESPECIALLY THE “NAM” ONEs) are not onl gettin’ Notch On Demand, but they gettin’ it all up and down the Social Pecking Order, from the Hottie working it out at Walmart to the Hottie working it out Johnson, Mitchell, Jones & Liebowitz-as a Senior Partner.
I know about such things. I’ve done it.
I think another reason why there is so much Hatin’ on Proles is because the so-called “betters” know they kinda livin’ a lie-they don’t make anything, don’t really DO anything that makes a Society go, and the main ones who really know this are Lawyers. I remember seeing on CSpan sometime back an interview w/Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia-who’s one of my faves, btw-and he made the same point.
He basically said, look, Law is a nice career, but people shouldn’t get ish twisted-lawyers are facilitators. They don’t MAKE ANYTHING. They move things around from one place to another and so on, but that’s about it.
Proles actually do the Grunt Work of Society, man. We make it possible to keep this thing called the United States of America going. We actually make stuff, at least that’s true for me. In my job, if you don’t produce, you’re out the door, period. Name the last time a teacher, from public school to the university campus, was actually fired for bad performance.
More than a quarter a million dollars passes through my hands a day; I’m part of a team that is the faster and most accurate production line in the entire plant. We’re the Go-To Guys when the chips are down and an order needs to go out at the last minute. In fact, just yesterday, such a thing happened to us, and we did the damned thing in half the time, w/well over 90% accuracy.
Most pencil pushers and paper shufflers don’t know what it is to get their hands dirty or actually move around on the job, which explains why nobody on my team has a gut. We’re on our feet, in the cold, all day, year round. Men have died on my job. Others have lost limbs.
I like my job because it keeps me grounded in the Realities of this World, just like Roissy’s insistence on recognizing the Sexual Marketplace keeps one grounded in the same things. I like the fact that there is a direct correllation to he amount of effort I put into my job and rewards reaped. I like the fact that I’m doing something that actually matters. And I like the fact that what I do actually turns A LOT of Women ON. Again, none of my fellow team members are sitting at home on Saturday night working it out with the hand.
And just in case Dave Alex or anyone else tries the low class Women defence, hold up-I’m talking about, again, all up and down the Poon Scale. In fact, me, Ricky and Rashid, all of us tend to date/bed Women of a similar sort-highly educated, very well employed, high IQ Ladies. NONE of us have dated Women in our same Class. And in all likelihood, won’t.
During this time of the year, which tends to be a bit slow for us, I’m still putting in 50 hours a week; during the “hot” time of the year, that goes up to a 65 hour per week average, and Mu still has enough in the tank to put the Good Wood to a fortunate Female. In fact, I’ve found that when a Woman finds out how hard I work, that its a huge turn on for them. Women dig guys w/boundless energy, fellas. Kinda hard to do that if you live in a cubicle five days a week.
Also: how many of my White Collar Brothers can say that they got no less than FIVE pay raises last year-two of them in the same week? And, how many of them can say that the Vice President of the company came to their desk and publicly BEGGED them to take the job they laid them off from-begged-like a dog? In front of everyone? Hmm? You see, that’s what happened to me.
This time last year we got a new guy VP of Ops, and like all newbie suits, he had all these great ideas for making the operation better. One of them was laying me off from the second shift (I work two shifts, 7AM-9.30PM during the hot season). He figured he could get cheaper guys to maintain the equipment we use, pay em cheaper wages.
No problem, I said. I knew the deal, they were gonna call me before I called them.
That’s because, as we all know, you get what you pay for-and I know that I’m a very smart guy for a Prole. I had studied, on my own, every piece of equipment on the quiet in our shop. I know it in and out like the back of my hand, and what’s more, I worked on them everyday for nearly three years. Hands on experience. That’s really tough to beat.
But Newbie VP of Ops had better ideas. He brings in three new guys to replace me, and within ONE WEEK they damn near destroy a half million dollar piece of equipment. This means that that piece of equipment will be down during daytime ops. That means product can be made. That means vendors will get mad. That means lost money on product, loss of vendors, wasted money on union guys standing around doing nothing while the gearheads try and fix the mess the Three Stooges VP hired put in motion.
In the Business World, its all about the bottomline…you either make money, or you lose it. Newbie VP was losing the company money.
One month went by. Two months went by. Just when it was about to be Three Months, Newbie VP comes to me on the shop floor while I’m operating my quarter of a century jalopy w/over 90% accuracy, and begs me to take my job back.
Of course, I accept-at a fee of 25% increase in salary.
That move, in the presence of the Brotherhood, put me over the top as the number one name in the running for Shop Steward when the elections come around this Fall.
Alpha, or Beta?
Y’all tell me.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, Ms. Brown Sugah is on the train in to see me; today we find out if Mystery’s Seven Hour Rule indeed, works…
Holla back
Salaam
Mu
LikeLike
“I think another reason why there is so much Hatin’ on Proles is because the so-called “betters” know they kinda livin’ a lie-they don’t make anything, don’t really DO anything that makes a Society go”
Same could be said of professional PUAs.
Also, same could be said of grown men who are astrologers.
LikeLike
Uh Oh…sounds like we still got a few stragglers of hate up in here, LOL.
Relax, man. It ain’t that deep.
Salaam
Mu
LikeLike
Bella Bella
“Listen sweetie, don’t put words in my mouth. My post was NOT about excusing women”
“Men doo it tooooo!” is exactly about excusing women. The difference between men and women is that when men act badly, other men call them on it. If the guy isn’t alpha, women will ruthlessly call him on it. If the guy is alpha, women will excuse and ignore bad behavior.
When women act badly women line up to make excuses, like say, “but men do that too”. Anything to distract.
Men are larger, stronger, more violent and better at reasoning than women. Women need something to advance their interests when they’re opposed to men and the tool of choice is straight up sincere moral hypocrisy: it’s easier to fool everyone if you simply don’t believe that any woman can ever do anything wrong.
If the point of your post wasn’t to excuse women by pointing out men’s misbehavior, what was it exactly? To tell an entertaining anecdote? (you failed)
“so take your pain and direct it far far away from me, k?”
Bitch, I’ll direct my scorn at your stupidity if I feel like it and if I won’t if I don’t.
LikeLike
id say there is an important difference in alpha/beta mentally:
An alpha would rather die alone than marry a woman of questionable virtue, laughing and pounding pussy all the way to his grave. Worst case scenario he marries an attractive lady who he doesnt love, beats and cheats on the whore. Relationships are so much easier when no love is involved.
A Beta will spend his whole life sucking up to women, making all the schoolboy errors in the book in his search for validation. he’ll be greatful for whatever attention he recieves and marry nearly anything. If hes very lucky he’ll be cheated on by his spouse but never find out and die relatively happy because sucking ass is what betas do best and strangely i think they enjoy it. ignorance is bliss.
ignorance is not bliss for the alpha, there is no such thing, the alpha is too experienced and knowledgable about women, he is also instictively non-trusting and aggressive. By assuming the worst, the wise alpha ensures his treatment of women is always despicable, and intern attracts even more women. good times.
LikeLike
@JM above.
Many many many patients prefer women physicians. In many ways, the culture of medicine is improved over the way it was in the male-dominated years. Women physicians are a natural, including the part-time options they take.
LikeLike
Many many many patients prefer women physicians.
That’s true. I’d never let my family see a male Ob/Gyn or pediatrician for routine care.
LikeLike
@Joel,
The “irrationality” in breast cancer medicine is rooted in the patients , not the women physicians. Talk to male breast surgeons; they follow the same irrationality, because the patients demand it.
LikeLike
Maybe I’m a materialistic whore who simply sees things differently. One must remember that I freak out about my kids potentially “regressing to the mean” or the children living in a world where HBD is common knowledge.
Nobody’s children regress to the mean of their parents’ ethnic group. What they regress to is the extended families of their parents. Otherwise there wouldn’t be talents running in the family.
Seriously? Chopin, Curie, and a Pope, and yet the stereotype of I have Poland is a bleak Eastern Europe hellhole with misery that “lags” behind the Czech Republic, Hungary, or Slovenia. It’s not on my list of places to visit…
Poland’s GDP (purchasing power parity) per capita per year was $16,200 in 2007. Not exactly “a hellhole” in economic terms, particularly compared to most countries in the Caribbean. There are old cities in Poland with beautiful architecture such as Krakow.
LikeLike
I’d never let my family see a male Ob/Gyn or pediatrician for routine care.
SEE!!! There’s an example of irrationality , right before our eyes.!!!!!
LikeLike
@Jack above,
Though I’d bet law girls are more bitchy and trashy on average than med girls.
I’ll speculate this as well, and suspect that male docs are less manwhores than male lawyers. Frequent exposure to STDs , their complications, and the behavioral costs of whoring around keep that behavior in check. Whoring around behavior = suicide threats, fights, STDs, depression.
LikeLike
Nothing irrational about such preferences. By the way, for routine care it’s also normal to avoid doctors with exotic / non-American-sounding last names and doctors who light up one’s “affirmative action” red flags. Freedom of choice and association is good.
LikeLike
Any way to put an asterisk next to NAM and female posts? These are the ones I skip over. Their opinions are meaningless to me.
LikeLike
To be fair, she must have assumed that she could just keep whatever organs she wanted, since he gave his balls up so easily…
LikeLike
Proles actually do the Grunt Work of Society, man. We make it possible to keep this thing called the United States of America going. We actually make stuff,
this is true. This country has gotten seriously twisted around by valuing financial speculation, PR, etc. over actual production. Indirectly related to a lot of our economic problems right now.
LikeLike
So, about picking up girls…
I get the impression from this list that exposing yourself as a physician when looking for a pickup is a bad idea. (Just another wrong idea that betas have.) So, what do you do when she asks what you do for a living? What would be good profession for a short term relationship. Would saying I would just rather not talk about it? Or, how about unemployed?
About girls going for alpha guys and then getting tired of them. I know a girl who has done that. They have been together about 5 years. She finished school and got a job with the Social Security Administration as some sort of pencil pusher. He meanwhile did or did not finish up his elementary school teaching degree (which I suspect would have been challenging for him) and works at nowhere jobs (retail). I was astounded to hear her diss’ing him at a party recently, in his presence. She said he peaked in high school (Mr. Big on campus in a way.) and has been going downhill since then. She wasn’t saying this in a jocular fashion. She was serious. Even though I don’t have much of an opinion of this guy, I felt she went too far. Nobody deserves that.
I don’t see why he stays with her, really. She is nice and intelligent but easily below 5 by now, putting on some weight, and now about 28. She’s been going downhill somewhat herself. She wants to get married but he hasn’t asked her.
I can see this relationship going away. Even if he marries here, he’ll still be worthless. But,then, if she wants to get married to somebody else (like a good beta boy), she has wasted years on this guy. She’s in a box.
Well, that’s what thinking with the wrong end of your body does for you. At least when they break up, he won’t get all her assets and alimony.
LikeLike
joel, what exactly is so alpha about the guy you’re describing?
LikeLike
He a moderately big man with huge dreadlocks and the attitude to match. That is, a self assured, BMOC type who interfaces well with people, easy smile, very personable and all but who comes across to people like me as someone who hasn’t grown up. I think they call this the Peter Pan syndrome. Women love them. Maybe not a true alpha, but a girl magnet in his own way. I suspect he would be very successful in the bar scene.
But, in a man’s world, such guys are zeros. But, he is an alpha of sorts in the female world.
Maybe Roissy can talk about men who are alpha’s in both the male and female worlds and men who are alpha only in one or the other.
LikeLike
Maybe Roissy can talk about men who are alpha’s in both the male and female worlds and men who are alpha only in one or the other.
– An alpha in both the male and female worlds: most NFL quarterbacks, charismatic business executives, successful youngish politicians, smart jocks
– An alpha in the male worlds: Ginghes Khan, George Washington, Saddam Hussein, most NFL coaches, US Marines
– An alpha in female worlds: a peacocking PUA, a bass guitarist in a bar band, a small-time drug dealer, Percy Shelley, Dennis Rodman
LikeLike
Or people could do some research about individual doctors instead of relying on simple thinking, especially when it’s as important as one’s health. My point being, even though IQ distribution isn’t equal across the different races, there are still a lot of intelligent Black, Hispanic, etc. people out there.
LikeLike
Frankly, I think that what happened is that women started to tell themselves “All right, if I’m going to have sexual relationships with men who don’t want marriage or any kind of commitment, I might as well go for the sexy bad boys.”
This is very true.
Of course another problem is that betas are more inept than they used to be. I once knew many men who had no Game, but who were still quite capable of scoring pretty girlfriends.
Not so. Part of it is that women have shifted toward playing the field somewhat more than they used to, so they are less interested in beta types. However, there are still tons and tons of ordinary provider-type men who could never pick up in a bar environment who marry attractive women (although they don’t play the field — can’t or choose not to is unclear). DC is full of these types of couples, I’m sure Roissy hates them. However, these types do not spend all their time whining and bitching on the internet (at least not when they’re young, if they get wiped out in a divorce settlement later on then they do). So betas aren’t more inept than they used to be, the angry ones just have a place to complain now.
The net has also allowed betas who want to do learn how to really play the field (as opposed to marrying a nice 7 when they are young) to work together to perfect their pickup skills.
LikeLike
even though IQ distribution isn’t equal across the different races, there are still a lot of intelligent Black, Hispanic, etc. people out there.
That’s very true but humans aren’t robots. There is the issue of subjective comfort levels, especially with regards to things as intimate as family medical care. I’ve read, for example, that many black patients prefer black doctors/nurses, etc.
And this is why I stressed this prejudice with regards to _routine_ medical care. For routine docor visits, a genius IQ is not necessary, so personal chemistry and comfort levels feels more important.
But for more serious medical treatment, like heart surgery, IQ and skill is more paramount, which is why, say, a Palestinian who will refuse to let his wife see an Israeli male ObGyn, will probably prefer that a Jewish cardiologist rather than an Arab one operate on his injured daughter, for example.
LikeLike
Actually, I’d change it toward saying that far from being more inept than they used to be, betas are probably more skilled than they were in, say, the 1950s. Both men and women grow up a lot faster and have more exposure to stuff than they used to.
– An alpha in both the male and female worlds: most NFL quarterbacks, charismatic business executives, successful youngish politicians, smart jocks
– An alpha in the male worlds: Ginghes Khan, George Washington, Saddam Hussein, most NFL coaches, US Marines
– An alpha in female worlds: a peacocking PUA, a bass guitarist in a bar band, a small-time drug dealer, Percy Shelley, Dennis Rodman
Perfect, exactly right.
LikeLike
anony,
re: MDs being smart about STDs
I refer you to Mussivand v. David as a counterpoint. All three implicated parties were MDs. (Mussivand is actually a really impressive guy, not so much his whore wife and her lover.)
LikeLike
i actually work with dr. batista…he works at nassau university medical center. very disgruntled guy i tell you. always knew there was some reason he was always so pent up and in a bad mood…now i know what it is.
LikeLike
Mark in Ark:
Any way to put an asterisk next to NAM and female posts? These are the ones I skip over. Their opinions are meaningless to me.
then you’re missing some outstanding posts by T and Mu’Min. singling out crappy NAM posts might be relevant on other sites but you’re being more than a little unfair on this one.
now, about putting an asterix by the female posts, i totally agree. their anecdotal observations won’t be missed.
joel:
About girls going for alpha guys and then getting tired of them. I know a girl who has done that. They have been together about 5 years.
i suspect that even if this phenomenon exists, it usually involves guys who weren’t as alpha as alleged and women who are close to or well past their expiration date when they finally deign to settle for a beta. either way, i doubt that we’re talking about women in their prime making such choices. so who cares?!
LikeLike
“The point is that if a woman has enjoyed a lifetime relationship and raised a stable family, she will more than likely be surrounded by loving children, grandchildren and so forth in her later years, even if the husband died some years before.”
And this is a fallacious assumption. There are plenty of older folks being shunted off to retirement communities by their oh-so-loving families.
LikeLike
“And YES, if a woman gets cheated on, it’s highly likely it’s because she CHOSE poorly. Want to date George Clooney?”
How about women who married early, devoted their lives to husband and family, and then get dumped for a younger, hotter model anyway? This is not an uncommon occurrence.
Did *they* choose poorly? How were they to see 20+ years into the future? What do you propose they do when that’s their reward for a life of faithful devotion?
LikeLike
Women “worthy” of commitment will get commitment.
This might be the single most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read on here.
Some women worthy of commitment will get it; some won’t. Many women unworthy of commitment will still get it; some won’t. There are plenty of worthy women who, despite doing right, will get screwed over by men, just as there are plenty of unworthy women who will continue to treat men like crap, just because they can.
Bad things happen to good people, all the time, all around you. This idea that “if you get cheated on, you must have deserved it” is ludicrous. Will you be recommending “The Secret” next?
LikeLike
I sure wish he had let that bitch stay on dialysis! Maybe she’d be dead by now! And he could keep his money and get a younger prettier woman!
LikeLike
I don’t belong to the type of game/dating scene most commenters here do and am glad. I’ll gladly take a beta who would care and support me like my step-dad does for my mom then an alpha. My father was more “alpha” and was abusive towards my mom and me. Had feminism not happened I would automatically have been placed in my fathers care and god knows what could have happened to me. I’m not going to say that there aren’t women who take advantage of the law, because there are and its wrong. But there’s also plenty of men who abuse and break the law. No one side is more innocent then the other. It’s a bit melodramatic to suggest that Western civilization is falling apart because of feminism.
LikeLike
joel writes
I get the impression from this list that exposing yourself as a physician when looking for a pickup is a bad idea. (Just another wrong idea that betas have.) So, what do you do when she asks what you do for a living? What would be good profession for a short term relationship. Would saying I would just rather not talk about it? Or, how about unemployed?
Just dance around the issue and tell her you’re working on your GED or some other obvious lie. If she pushes, and she will, tell her the truth and then change the subject. Doctor sends her the provider signal and she’ll wait to put out because she wants you to see her as wife material.
I’ve been toying with the idea of turning my answer to that question into a little routine. I’ll say I’m an artist or art critic or some other artsy thing chicks dig and then I’ll talk about beauty in nature and how it makes her feel, blah, blah, blah, finally I’ll tell her I study the artwork of God. I’m a theoretical physicist. We’ll see how this goes.
I also have the problem of sending girls the provider signal. I’m still in grad school, but I plan to work in quant finance or management consulting when I finish, two big $ careers that former jizz buckets know can provide for them. To top it off, I actually like kids and want to be a father. I’d rather keep these things a mystery to girls I’m trying to turn into cum receptacles.
LikeLike
Genghis is probably the alpha of all alphas. http://www.stormyscorner.com/2006/01/you_too_are_a_d.html
1 in 12 men alive today in what was the Mongol Empire is his descendent. No man alive in the XIII century came even close to this.
LikeLike
I think the original article was from The Economist, but they are open only for subscribers. perhaps G is a subscriber and will post it here for us, since Genghis spent his life traveling around the world and banging hot chicks!
G said somewhere that his “territory”, or where he was the supreme alpha around, included western europe, LA, NY, and someother places. Como to think of it. Genghis could say the same thing for the entire asian continent except India and it was TRUE!!!
LikeLike
That’s not incompatible with settling for the best man (as opposed to a perfect fantasy of the faithful bad boy) available early (mid to early twenties).
I think we’ve hit the singularity in terms of marriages based on love. The problem with your scenario is that in those situation is that you’ll end up with couples who are in their mid-twenties who are married, but bored shitless and too poor to have children. I’d think in such an environment, you’ll get a male who is watching his friends have fun, and a woman who’s “trapped” with a beta male who will eventually stop igniting her sexually which makes her easy prey for an alpha male to swoop in and have his way with her.
Toyotas don’t turn heads.
I see you’ve never heard of the Toyota Supra or the high-end luxury Lexus margue.
Hell, overseas, Toyota sells an uplevel Camry with a TRD sports package…
she may very well have an affair with a beta type, at least the kind who is very romantic and lovey-dovey
Was I the beta patsy for my Canadian Mistress?
if he thinks that him getting a degree “good job” is suddenly gonna transform him into Superman
As I stated before, I want the college degree in order to feel somewhat complete about myself, and so I don’t spend the rest of my days wondering what could have been. I know a college degree doesn’t magically turn a man into a player capable of gaming women, but I just want the degree for the confidence boost for myself. The fact that it can lead to a career capable of paying (white collar) beta provider wages is secondary concern at best.
I’d never let my family see a male Ob/Gyn or pediatrician for routine care.
In contrast, my mom hates female OB/GYNs and thinks they’re all lesbians…
Nobody’s children regress to the mean of their parents’ ethnic group. What they regress to is the extended families of their parents. Otherwise there wouldn’t be talents running in the family.
I haven’t noticed any talents in my family, and while I have two cousins who went to Top 100 universities, I have an older brother and cousin who are ex-cons.
Poland’s GDP (purchasing power parity) per capita per year was $16,200 in 2007.
If we use the CIA’s statistics on GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power parity, Antigua and Barbuda has a GDP per capita of $18,300, Trinidad & Tobago is $25,400, Barbados is at $18,900, and the Bahamas is at $28,000. If one wants to be fair, if we restrict this to other Eastern European states, then Hungary ranks at $19,300, Slovakia at $20,200, the Czech Republic at $24,500, and Slovenia at $28,200. Hell, Croatia doesn’t have the luxury of being in the EU, yet their GDP is slightly below Poland at $15,500.
For a white country with the luxury of membership in the EU, Poland underperforms…
There are old cities in Poland with beautiful architecture such as Krakow.
There, I must agree with you on that. I downloaded a few sets of residential buildings from Krakow for Sim City 4.
This country has gotten seriously twisted around by valuing financial speculation, PR, etc. over actual production.
There *was* a higher return on investment by aiming for financial speculation over production. There’s a reason why even the Chinese are slowly growing sick of making cheap crap.
I’ve read, for example, that many black patients prefer black doctors/nurses, etc.
It depends. My mom goes to a Haitian GP, but her GYN is a Sicilian. I don’t have any preference for the ethnicity of my doctors, but then I’m a liberal who *wants* to think that medical staff of any ethnicity will treat me equitably.
LikeLike
Art school nerd
let´s study your case. Your father was an abusive alpha. He chose your mother. Did she get fat during marriage? You say your step dad “cares and supports” your mother. May I infer that your alpha father is not paying child-support/alimony for her? Your alpha father may have a low status job?
LikeLike
My alpha father can hardly hold a job and is married to a fat cow. My mom was smaller when she was younger but still maintains a healthy weight. In short, no my mother did not get fat during marriage.
LikeLike
Anonymous:
“And this is a fallacious assumption. There are plenty of older folks being shunted off to retirement communities by their oh-so-loving families.”
Yes, and there are people who work hard and focus on their careers, and yet still end up broke. Does that mean that one should become a wino or street bum?
There are people who are perfectly law abiding, and yet end up as victims of murder. Does that mean that one should join up with the Crips?
Do you really not understand this? Do you not understand that, while no outcome is guaranteed, certain behaviors make particular outcomes more or less likely?
We’re talking about odds, not absolutes.
Sure, there are some older people shunted off into nursing homes, alone and lonely. But I’ll tell you this: of all the old women that I know who had lifetime partnerships and raised several children, they are ALL surrounded by family that constantly look out for them, help them out, and give them a lot of attention. In the end, family is all that is left. If those family members were never born, they can’t be there. If the family was splintered and unstable, people are less likely to stay in touch. They are also less likely to feel obligation. Stable, extended families on the other hand? These provide a wealth of support, at all sorts of levels (emotional, financial, and so forth).
What this society is producing, and what attitudes such as yours encourage, is a lot of lonely people in tiny to non-existent families. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see how that is likely to turn out. Not guaranteed, but likely.
Again, you continue to complain about poison, and yet you recommend that the patient take even more poison.
LikeLike
@Jack
> THREE sexual partners for American women? Roissy, you lose credibility with this. NO remotely attractive woman hits the age of 22 with less than 5 sex partners nowadays, unless she’s religious or something.
I wonder about this also. Are there reliable stats somewhere that are broken down by age cohort and geographic location? I have a feeling that there are a lot of 55+ year old women that are bringing down the median.
The real question is “how many partners per year does the average 18-25 woman have” as cross referenced with location, religious upbringing, etc, etc.
LikeLike
Alias —
You contradict yourself AGAIN. HOW did Beta men suddenly get more socially inept with women? It boggles the mind that Beta men, who had little trouble finding and marrying a pretty girl in generations past, suddenly produced a generation of sons who cannot connect with women due to social ineptness. With no great social changes in the environment for men, or what have you. You offer not a shred of explanation on how beta men suddenly became inept with women over a generation. [If anything rising income and lower risk would make men more risk-friendly not more risk-averse. Since the cost of risk is lower.]
No.
The only logical explanation is that women decided to pursue bad boys, who DO lack commitment. Beta men are eager to settle down in their late twenties to a women in her mid twenties. Women are complaining NOT that most men are unwilling to commit but that the players they crave won’t commit to THEM.
Durex’s survey had the average (not median, but still) national sex partners for women at NINE. No word on the median. But that’s indicative. Urban professional women can easily reach 50 or more.
I agree with Ryder, T and Mu’Min have good points about blue vs. white collar though it’s filtered through the aspect of women’s status markings. A Blue collar Alpha aggressive guy has an advantage over a cube dweller engineer, but the Alpha Lawyer who has higher prestige has an advantage and a sizeable one over both because women care deeply about status.
Anony — The culture of medicine depends on new techniques, technology, challenging the consensus views with strong data and independent thinking. A path followed by Lister, and Florence Nightengale. However, Nightengale was not “feminine” but rather fairly masculine in her approach — using charts to convince Parliament to implement sanitary measures in the Crimean hospitals to reduce the death rate. “Feeling” and empathy are outweighed by the demand for science. Something most women are not very good at (the prefer consensus and feeling). Some women are exceptional, but they are the exceptions not the Oprah rule. Sad to say.
I think the excuse making, the wanting it all, the refusal to admit trade-offs by women is important to illustrate the female mindset. Mind you, men make the same types of mistakes in different directions (a “whore but only with you”) and over-estimate IMHO the importance of “great beauty” vs. general attractiveness. Mary Ann is preferable to Ginger because both are attractive, would make good sex partners, but Mary Ann is likely to stay with you if you get off the Island. Ginger will be off with fellow movie stars.
No asterisks for female posters. Their huge assumption errors are valuable to see.
Anony — Yes women can see twenty years into the future. A guy who devotes considerable time, money, and effort to medical care for his aging dog is unlikely to stray. A guy who dumps his dog off at the pound because he moved will do that to you. A guy with lots of sex partners who every girl feels is “hot” and swept you off your feet with romance is likely to have those options later with some other girl. A guy who is considerably LESS attractive than the girl, who has as Newman put it “Filet Mignon at home” is unlikely to stray (since he could not even get hamburger). A guy who’s every action speaks loyalty and has those annoying “beta qualities” women dislike of worshipping the woman will hardly ever stray.
The romantic bad boy nearly always will.
This is the typical female response of wanting it all. No one can have it all. Women know damn well the guy is a player which is why they were with him not the agreeable worshipful beta guy in the first place.
Reality check: that worshipful, likely 90% faithful chance beta guy won’t STAY that way if all he sees is rejection by women. He’s unlikely to remain faithful either if the woman has her bad boys for ten years then marries the guy at the late thirties mark. Constant romantic disappointment and lack of real sexual attraction and the knowledge he’s last not first choice make sexual-emotional-pair-bonding pretty low. His wife is likely to be his sometimes tiresome “pal” who had lots of sex with other guys, and the reality is that men do not like sharing. They’ll even kill to avoid that, in extremes, and not invest much when they do.
Yes women who get cheated on by the Bass Player, Alpha Male cocky lawyer, big time tycoon (I’m thinking that guy from Broadcom, Henry Nicholas III) certainly did make obvious bonehead choices. Christie Brinkley, Liz Hurley, are also good examples of boneheaded choices by monumentally self-deceiving women.
And I’m speaking on average. Yeah Yao Ming is tall, Verne Troyer is short, they don’t represent the average heights of Chinese and America men either. Women in general if they are seen by men in general as worthy of committment will GET committment. If they are not they will be treated as disposable sex objects. Women can avoid getting cheated on by … careful examination of the character of the man they consider marrying. [Women nearly always make this mistake — outliers somehow disprove the normal distribution.]
Evidence: Black music. In 1965 Marvin Gaye was singing soulful songs of worship about women. Now Snoop Dogg sings about women as disposable sex objects. That’s a huge change in social attitudes predicated upon the behavior and demands of women for a certain type of man.
LikeLike
now, about putting an asterix by the female posts, i totally agree.
I disagree. Yes, many women write silly things but they usually mean well, at least the regular ones. Some do make very worthwhile comments. Besides — sausage blogs suck. How much fun is Siggie’s place? Not much.
their anecdotal observations won’t be missed.
Nerd alert: “hehe – hehe – statistics – hehe — I.Q. – hehe – graphs and charts!”
LikeLike
Steven Johnson, Bella’s post saying that men are guilty too wasn’t intended to excuse women’s misdeeds.
It was intended to deflate some of the outrage directed against women as a sex, here and elsewhere, by suggesting that both sexes are or can be equally guilty of abusing the other’s trust, bodies, money etc.
Incidentally, it was by meditating on this fact (that women are as guilty of abusing men as the reverse) that I was finally able to get over most of the more outrageous feminist nonsense the media and schools tried to feed me.
**
Tupac, Whiskey et al., my main point in jumping in here was to suggest that women do sometimes manage to marry their sexy bad boy boyfriends, tho’ I admit this is more likely if the bad boy in question is socially or educationally a few notches below his gf. Such women are often soon disillusioned by life with such a man, and leave him for a more stable one. As I’ve said before (to Tupac esp.), many alpha men, esp. of the PUA type, are quite emotionally unstable behind the scenes (think Mystery), so this outcome is more common than you believe.
**
Freak show, I’ll admit most of us females here rely on anecdotes to make points. So do the men; this post of Roissy’s is an anecdote being used by readers to draw generalizations, in case you hadn’t noticed.
There are very few statistics in use here to support the majority of the wilder allegations made by commenters. For example, men here regularly go on about the awfulness of alimony (I agree, in most cases), but I found one US stat that said it’s only awarded in about 11% of cases throughout the country today. You’d never know it, though, from the way commenters write about it…I’m sure I could come up with many other examples if I tried.
LikeLike
Mary Ann is preferable to Ginger because both are attractive, would make good sex partners
The problem is that in real world, the difference between Mary Ann and Ginger is stronger, and for some of us, if we can’t get Ginger, we’d rather befriend Mary Ann, and jerk off the Ginger’s cousin who does porn, Amber. Mary Ann physically reminds us of our mothers or sisters while Ginger reminds us of sex.
A guy who’s every action speaks loyalty and has those annoying “beta qualities” women dislike of worshipping the woman will hardly ever stray.
Given that women can support themselves with middle class wages, what’s the incentive to go marry a loser beta that you can’t brag about to your friends or family, especially if according some here, women hate men who worship them?
Whiskey, it seems that you’re dreaming of a return a to world that once existed, and yet even though I’d technically be a “winner” in such a world due to the women looking for a beta provider to take care of them, the problem is that you’re just creating a delusion where beta males think they’re loved and appreciated, and their wives really hate them and crave alpha cock. I’m almost tempted to say that your situation may create happy betas living in a delusion, but an increased opportunity for cuckholdry for wives who can’t escape their boring beta husbands. Is it better for men to live in such a delusional state, or is it better for men to live in the real world, accept that they’re only useful for cosigning for a car loan and paying a mortgage and nothing more? Maybe it is better to stay single and to enjoy a secure single lifestyle?
This is the typical female response of wanting it all. No one can have it all.
As I like to say, it’s a choice between a brand new Ferarri and a twenty year old rusted out car in an urban environment. The beta male is the rusted out car, and given the ample availability of a highly functional mass transit system (aka singlehood with middle class wages), if you can’t afford the Ferarri, you’d rather stay alone and share or rent one with a friend than own the rusted out car.
LikeLike
Freak show, I’ll admit most of us females here rely on anecdotes to make points. So do the men; this post of Roissy’s is an anecdote being used by readers to draw generalizations, in case you hadn’t noticed.
but, the vast majority of individual’s who do bring statistics are men on this forum.
not that this does most of the women reading this any good. on this forum, rarely do female opinions change after women read statistics they don’t like and rarely do women here seem to bring their own statistics to counter prevailing opinion.
for example, i remember the histrionics chic demonstrated both before and after a commenter emphasized actual statistics suggesting roissy’s assertion regarding black female sluttiness was correct. the stats don’t matter to certain individual’s strongly held beliefs. on this site, that usually is in regard to women.
LikeLike
Yes, many women write silly things but they usually mean well, at least the regular ones.
clio probably means well. i might dispute the word ‘usually’ though. besides, intentions are largely irrelevant if the thought process isn’t linear. maybe that’s the bigger issue.
LikeLike
whiskey:
“Women nearly always make this mistake — outliers somehow disprove the normal distribution.”
Spot on, man. And frankly, you just can’t have an intelligent conversation with people who constantly make this particular mistake. They are forever trapped in the seventh grade, regardless of nominal IQ. Most women can’t see the forest for the trees, or grasp the essential difference between the macro and the micro. Even more importantly, they can’t seem to grasp when it’s appropriate to talk macro versus when it is appropriate to talk micro. Easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle…
Vanishingly few women can grasp a Big Idea. It’s incredibly cool when you meet one of the few that can, but that’s about a once in a decade event. Meeting one that is also hot, well, that’s more like once in a lifetime. I think I already had mine.
LikeLike
Doctors and betas:
First of all, you have to study a lot to get into medical school. I think this is a good thing; there’s a lot of crap to learn. However, it doesn’t leave you much time for gaming.
Second, I don’t think alpha traits honestly make a good primary care physician. Physicians are supposed to be devoted, caring, and studious–all beta traits. Alphas in medical school tend to go into macho fields like surgery, which reward alpha traits like improvisation and coolness under fire. We won’t get into omega fields like pathology, which reward memorization of arcana and cutting open dead bodies. (Radiology has many of the same traits but has become extremely competitive to get into and is now, bizarrely, full of alphas.)
Third, the high income (this is common to doctors and lawyers) combined with years of study that weed out the unstudious make medicine and law attractive to shy smart types. I had a friend who was a total beta–nice guy, mind you–who managed to get AOA and get into an Ivy League internal medicine program, where he’s pretty much guaranteed a cardiology spot and a $300K salary for life; the dude would never have made it past the first year at a banking firm.
Of course this is a PUA blog, so disdain for betas is natural; it’s like the way scientists get really angry when you bring religion up. But not everyone needs to be an alpha.
LikeLike
Of course this is a PUA blog, so disdain for betas is natural; it’s like the way scientists get really angry when you bring religion up. But not everyone needs to be an alpha.
i’m going to assume you’re a woman b/c i don’t know how a man who thinks logically would arrive at such a conclusion about this blog.
roissy and most of the regular commenters seem to suggest anything but outright disdain for beta males. maybe they suggest giving degree of sympathy at the actual disdain shown to beta males by a feminist dominated society. possibly, on rare occasions actual disdain is shown on here.
but, most men would inherently differentiate sympathy from disdain when reading most of the posts/comments.
LikeLike
Whiskey asked “HOW did Beta men suddenly get more socially inept with women? It boggles the mind that Beta men, who had little trouble finding and marrying a pretty girl in generations past, suddenly produced a generation of sons who cannot connect with women…”
My explaination:
When women didn’t have a foothold in the workplace, a man having a decent job was a big deal to a woman. So a decent salary/prestige meant Alpha.
Then women got a foothold in the working world and men became “guys,” or equals. But women seek out superiors for breeding, so they took to their bosses.
Because that caused workplace chaos, sex harrassment laws came into being. Then women started outnumbering men in colleges. Men who went to school and earned salaries started looking like old fashioned throwbacks and/or became off-limits due to feminist harrassment laws.
Women then began taking to bad boys, because bad boys offer the dominance women seek but in A DIFFERENT REALM. Now men are called “boys” — listen to how much women now call men boys in music and pop culture. Language is telling.
Hence, the working man of the 1960s is the working chump and Beta LOSER of today. And as I have said before EX-CONS ARE THE NEW DOCTORS, so to speak.
LikeLike
When women didn’t have a foothold in the workplace, a man having a decent job was a big deal to a woman. So a decent salary/prestige meant Alpha.
i’d only add that welfare contributed to this situation, as whiskey has covered pretty extensively.
LikeLike
If they were a close enough genetic match for him to be an organ donor then they probably weren’t compatible mates anyway.
LikeLike
Question Roissy…would your let your conservative and virginal sister marry a philanderer who sleeps with anything in sight?
I m sure that being a maleslut can affect a male if the women finds out and she is conservative….if your number is in the 3 digits, that indicates to the women that you are not able of having a long term committed relationship (if you ever had one!).
slutiness it does affect men albeit less than women.
what do you say?
LikeLike
“Beta men are eager to settle down in their late twenties to a women in her mid twenties.”
That’s sure not the message they send to the girls who are dating them.
LikeLike
Joe C wrote:
“If they were a close enough genetic match for him to be an organ donor then they probably weren’t compatible mates anyway.”
Maybe, but the fact that he’s a surgeon so skilled that he actually performed the procedure himself, removing his own kidney and transplanting it into her while lying there groggy on the operating room table, makes him an incredibly alpha catch.
LikeLike
“No asterisks for female posters. Their huge assumption errors are valuable to see.”
And one of your major errors is in assuming that all women have misspent their youths fucking alphas. It simply isn’t the case. It *may* be, for a subset of women who receive constant male attention and therefore have the luxury of picking and choosing, but that sure ain’t the reality for the majority of us.
“Anony — Yes women can see twenty years into the future. A guy who devotes considerable time, money, and effort to medical care for his aging dog is unlikely to stray. A guy who dumps his dog off at the pound because he moved will do that to you. A guy with lots of sex partners who every girl feels is “hot” and swept you off your feet with romance is likely to have those options later with some other girl. A guy who is considerably LESS attractive than the girl, who has as Newman put it “Filet Mignon at home” is unlikely to stray (since he could not even get hamburger). A guy who’s every action speaks loyalty and has those annoying “beta qualities” women dislike of worshipping the woman will hardly ever stray.”
And yet they *do* stray. There is a reason that the concept of the middle-aged businessman running off with his secretary is a stereotype: because it *happens*. I’m talking about couples who have already spent 20 years together, save your pet-owning analogies. You probably work with men who’ve dumped their faithful, home-oriented wives, whose only crime was daring to age.
Rather than put herself in a position to be abandoned, completely unprepared to self-support after devoting herself to her mate in good faith, a woman should plan for her own independence very early on.
Strive for the best-case scenario; prepare for the worst-case scenario.
“Given that women can support themselves with middle class wages, what’s the incentive to go marry a loser beta that you can’t brag about to your friends or family, especially if according some here, women hate men who worship them?”
The incentive is because you LOVE AND RESPECT HIM! “Beta” is not synonymous with “loser”…except on this blog, apparently.
The notion of either party expecting the other to worship them is disturbing, at best. If that’s what you expect out of a relationship, you deserve to be doomed to failure.
LikeLike
Alias –
You contradict yourself AGAIN. HOW did Beta men suddenly get more socially inept with women? It boggles the mind that Beta men, who had little trouble finding and marrying a pretty girl in generations past, suddenly produced a generation of sons who cannot connect with women due to social ineptness. With no great social changes in the environment for men, or what have you. You offer not a shred of explanation on how beta men suddenly became inept with women over a generation. [If anything rising income and lower risk would make men more risk-friendly not more risk-averse. Since the cost of risk is lower.]
Whiskey, I don’t get it. Neither this passage nor what follows it explains where you think I contradicted myself.
You appear to believe that I refuse to acknowledge any change in women’s sexual behaviour that might in turn have affected the beta male’s access to women. I don’t refuse to accept this. I’m sure that women’s selection criteria have changed in the last few generations.
What I was trying to get at was that certain social/environmental changes have fed into each other to make marriage a more difficult goal for both sexes – both for pretty women who are not tens, and decent men who are not alphas.
I’ll try again: My recollection of the social life of the late 1970s and early 1980s is that nice-guy/beta men did find attractive girlfriends quite easily. But in what appeared to be an age of ever-increasing sexual freedom, it wasn’t unusual to find that these young men refused to marry their pretty but not spectacular girls, holding out to find better ones as they grew older and more successful, or else merely hoping to have a bit of fun before they settled down. “Give me time” was their stock response to requests for commitment from girlfriends.
What changed? Well, certainly, women’s behaviour changed. I watched my friends repeatedly cheated on by men who were in no sense players or alphas, but who wanted to take advantage of the opportunities offered to them by hardcore party girls. The party girls were then stil the exception rather than the rule, but they were growing more numerous all the time. And, as Roissy has said in other blogposts, the presence of “sluts” devalues the women who hold out for more commitment. (Available casual sex drives out committed sex. Call it “slut-pressure”.) Note that party girls then were less insistent on seeking out alphas for casual encounters: many took on any man who responded to their advances.
I believe that women responded to the “slut pressure”, which had helped bring about this increasing unwillingness of men to marry young, by deciding to imitate male behaviour and choosing to have “fun” instead. They also thought that this was what feminism was encouraging them to do: delay marriage, have a variety of sexual partners. The kind of men they chose for fun were the sexy bad boys.
The beta males slowly began to find themselves locked out of the “fun” at this point. Fewer women available for commitment; fewer women interested in having their fun with betas.
As for whether betas were becoming more socially inept, that was not the core of my argument, and I don’t think it’s that important to my point. But there do seem to be more awkward, socially clueless young men around now than there used to be. Why? Don’t know. Perhaps because of the computer revolution, which has led many more adolescent males to spend their lives playing computer games rather than intereacting with a wide range of people. Perhaps because young middle class males are less likely to take jobs doing things like working in factories or cutting the grass or painting houses – again, jobs which force you to mingle with people unlike yourself and help to make you more at ease in the world.
One perhaps very important factor – grades were less important to one’s career success in the period 1970-1985 than they have since become. Most of the young men I knew in my own youth were very relaxed about such things. Now that grades are so important, more young people of both sexes spend their entire adolescence studying, and work only at “internships” of the SWPL kind, where they meet others exactly like themselves.
LikeLike
And yet they *do* stray. There is a reason that the concept of the middle-aged businessman running off with his secretary is a stereotype: because it *happens*. I’m talking about couples who have already spent 20 years together, save your pet-owning analogies. You probably work with men who’ve dumped their faithful, home-oriented wives, whose only crime was daring to age.
were you completely asleep when various commenters posted the stats showing that women initiate divorce at least 3/4 of the time in america?
that there may be a sizable minority of married men for whom this doesn’t apply is less relevant than what the overall trends show.
Rather than put herself in a position to be abandoned, completely unprepared to self-support after devoting herself to her mate in good faith, a woman should plan for her own independence very early on.
what guy would disagree with this in principle? everyone should get a pre-nup. what financial accommodations should be made for a wife who is asked to stay at home and not work or other pecuniary issues regarding division of assets in the event of a divorce should be decided by BOTH parties ahead of time.
DON’T GET MARRIED WITHOUT A PRE-NUP!!!!!
if the parties can’t come to an agreement, great. that means they shouldn’t be getting married to begin with.
we don’t need the courts to rig the family court system against men just to go to extreme lengths to preserve financial ‘justice’ for the (relatively speaking) outlier women who have been unjustly wronged.
i suspect i’m falling on deaf ears to women who just want to keep a system that unfairly benefits them at the cost of ongoing societal disintegration and outright abuse of most men in divorce courts. men, btw, who statistically had a lesser chance of initiating the divorce to begin with.
LikeLike
“You probably work with men who’ve dumped their faithful, home-oriented wives, whose only crime was daring to age.”
These guys were almost always alphas in my experience because they always had options. Controlling for personal sense of justice, religous beliefs, etcs… that old saying that a person is only as faithful as their options appears to be unfortunately true as a rule rather than an exception.
In college I knew one HB9 that actually explained her master plan. Basically she wanted to marry a rich guy and cuckold children by an attractive lover on the down-low. Everyone else was shocked but I was impressed by her candidness. At least she was honest =). Btw she had a goal of getting banged by a representative of every sport team at our university, upon hearing this I think all of us ran off to find our old sports jerseys… LOL… She might have been a bit amoral in her goals, but I did admire her naked honesty about it.
LikeLike
MQ
more exposure to stuff?
yes.
grow up faster?
that’s a joke… right? please?
at one point, 18 was the age of majority because the majority of 18-year-olds were actually legitimate adults with legitimate adult lives.
so, unless “grow up faster” means something like “have earlier access to information about things like sex” in mq land, there’s no way.
—
anonymous:
until the first faux pas.
fun fact: women tend to LOVE AND RESPECT (all caps, per your usage) those men who have the alpha qualities mentioned in this blog.
i’ve spent a great deal of time around high society women. my jaw still regularly smacks the ground at the frequency and intensity of the obloquious comments that these women make about their high-earning, gameless beta husbands who love them, adore them, and treat them like princesses. meanwhile, their true passions lie elsewhere.
there’s really not a lot we can do about this situation, short of reinstituting the severe strictures that propped up earlier eras such as the victorian era.
and that’s not just strictures on the behavior of women, either, although it must not be forgotten that women are the prime movers in the mating marketplace.
—
to whoever made the “disdain” comment:
roissy vilifies betas, but mostly as a wake-up call.
think: if roissy really disdained betas, would he waste his time creating a blog filled with truths that are already self-evident to non-betas?
or:
who is helped most by this site, rather than just being entertained by it?
think.
not infrequently, roissy dishes out direct self-improvement advice to any and all lurking betas.
LikeLike
freak show, pre-nups aren’t as ironclad as you think they are. in just about every state, judges have more grounds for nullifying pre-nups than you have fingers. and usually, at least one of those grounds is a catch-all such as “unconscionability”, which, to a feminist judge, means “not explicitly favoring the female”.
LikeLike
whiskey:
you have a point, but you’re also cherry-picking. your implication here is that the rise in “bitches ain’t shit” songs has been accompanied by a concomitant disappearance of “i wanna wife you up” songs.
hate to break it to you, but this just isn’t the case. there are still plenty of belly-up, beta-to-the-core, simp* tracks being turned out on the regular, by hip-hop and r&b artists who are otherwise badasses.
i’m sure there were underground artists back in marvin gaye’s day who sang about bitches not bein’ shit. the difference is that those artists wouldn’t have had chinaman’s chance of getting any airtime.
today’s standards are more permissive.
again, this is not to say that there hasn’t been a shift in attitudes, just that your evidence is flawed.
otherwise, you commentary is spot on as usual.
LikeLike
*footnote: for the notion of “simp”, see t’s blog, therawness.com.
LikeLike
anonMD
> We won’t get into o m e g a fields like pathology, which reward memorization of arcana and cutting open dead bodies. (Radiology has many of the same traits but has become extremely competitive to get into and is now, bizarrely, full of alphas.)
While I agree in most respects with you, I’m going to disagree with you WRT pathology. Perhaps it’s the wide circle of people I’ve known in the medical community over the years, but pathologists are no different than anyone else — I would classify them at the same beta level as most of medicine, with a few alphas here and there.
As a matter of fact, I can think of one pathologist I’ve known who made the beta -> alpha transition by learning game as he wasn’t on call 1 in 4 during his residency.* He and I used to joke that while the general surgeons would be up at 3am on a Wed answering a code brown or giving a Tylenol order from the ward, he’d be banging their lonely wives at home. He’s setting up a commercial real estate investment company on the side now that the mad cash is flowing in, and plans to replace his income and move into that full time.
* Well, this was technically true… but a pathological emergency means you show up at 830am rather than 9am. And as for the forensics — let’s not forget the CSI-effect.
LikeLike
Whiskey said: “Now Snoop Dogg sings about women as disposable sex objects. That’s a huge change in social attitudes predicated upon the behavior and demands of women for a certain type of man.”
I agree with Johnny 5 that you’re cherry picking; I still get your point.
But I want to mention that some of the nastiest, most anti-woman records ever were cut in 1966-67 by the Rolling Stones, specifically the albums “Aftermath” and “Between the Buttons” and the singles done at that time. Two songs in particular, “Stupid Girl” and “Backstreet Girl” offended women I knew long after these songs came out — and that’s saying something.
LikeLike
this is true. This country has gotten seriously twisted around by valuing financial speculation, PR, etc. over actual production. Indirectly related to a lot of our economic problems right now.
That is rooted in the fact that there are many millions of competent proles in other countries willing to work for less than American proles. But because 1) the USA is so large an export market necessary for some countries with underdeveloped consumer markets (out of a lack of social insurance systems etc. causing citizens to save too much of their disposable income), 2) the technological edge it still has by a large margin, 3) and the ambition of some newly industrialized nations to develop as rapidly as possible, the central banks of many of those other countries have been willing to purchase Fed bonds a massive degree to keep their currency exhange rates against the old greenback artificially low. As a result of this, their markets remain very hard for consumer good manufactured in the USA to penetrate.
LikeLike
Hey DoBA, don’t forget “Under my thumb”.
LikeLike
MQ answering to PA?
Of course another problem is that betas are more inept than they used to be. I once knew many men who had no Game, but who were still quite capable of scoring pretty girlfriends.
—-
Not so. Part of it is that women have shifted toward playing the field somewhat more than they used to, so they are less interested in beta types.
Scoring pretty girlfriends used to be much easier some decades ago than now because obesity has ruined such a large percentage of young women.
Betas are betas as they have always been.
LikeLike
Scoring pretty girlfriends used to be much easier some decades ago than now because obesity has ruined such a large percentage of young women.
The obesity epidemic is my theory too. (I think MQ was actually answering Clio)
As I harped on this here earlier, all you have to do is visit a place that doesn’t have that problem. When you walk around anywhere in Poland you won’t see that many 8s thru 10s. Very few, maybe at about the same rate you’d see at an American high school or college.
But what you do see everyfrigginwhere is cute, slim, 6s-7s, with pretty, unjaded faces, tasteful feminine clothes, and girlish, demure-to-flirty demeanors.
I bet that’s what America was like in the 50s and early 60s, when betas (aka ordinary guys) still made out well.
LikeLike
Alias —
I would not dispute that some women will dump a Mystery type at some point. But then the problem remains: “If she did not want me at 25 why would I want her at 35?”
Timing, is everything. A woman has a short, short window. And her contemporary “nice guy” potential mates don’t stay that way. They either get married and stay married (off the market) or experience disappointment as woman after woman says “you are so nice” and goes off to sleep with the bad boy.
On average (and this penalizes the woman who does NOT act this way, given that “enough” women do) this produces a large pool of bitter angry “ex-nice guys” in their early-mid thirties who will … surprise … act like the baddest bad boy they can and sleep around, hence the monetary success of the PUA schools and gurus.
Women expect that the nice, worshipful guy who was that was at age 25 will just STAY THAT WAY with a good ten years of romantic disappointment. Dumb mistake. Meanwhile, it’s easy to spot nice guys at age 25-29 or so who will be very likely to be in things for the long haul.
How does he treat his pet? His grandparents? His parents? Siblings? Is he religious? Does he attend church regularly? Does he volunteer in areas where he can’t really pick up women? Is he obessed with status?
Loyalty is a character aspect that can be easily determined. It does not however, correlate with being the hot guy every other woman wants.
DA: your mistake is thinking the current system is stable. For one thing, much of the female employment (marketing, rep sales, fashion, etc.) is DOA in a recession.
Yes Ryder, it’s terrible. For one thing it makes male and female society separate.
Days — you are probably right. But the notable thing is that men did not change. Women and their selection criteria did … RADICALLY.
Anon — stats and cites? Or mere assertion? I’ve posted extensively in the rising age of marriage for men and women, and how that correlates strongly with reduced marriage as a whole and illegitimacy. Men certainly got married relatively early in prior times (there is data back to the 1940’s on this) and it’s hard to see how that preference would change.
What men want to marry is a woman who has not slept with men in the double digits, to whom they will be special not merely another number served and the means to a great big party for herself (aka a Wedding). Women who are assumed to have lots of sex partners don’t generate commitment from anyone.
In the Black Urban community, White Professional community, and among Hispanics, numbers of partners for women are way above the Durex Survey average of 9. Stats for STDs, illegitimacy (excepting White professionals), etc. also are higher than the national average. So no, women in the urban professional environment (and non-Asian, non-White populations) DO spend a lot of time having sex with Alphas. I’d post the links but they go to moderation and I’m lazy.
And you still don’t get it. The fact that the guy dumped his wife was ENTIRELY predictable. She chose the hot-shot Eliot Spitzer type, instead of the boring, nice guy accountant. She self-evidently chose a guy who could and did get other, younger women, instead of the boring guy not many other women were interested in who had it great.
It’s like women can’t imagine: “Oh he has tatoos proclaiming his love of violence, lots of scars from fighting, a long arrest record, how could he have ever beat me up? I never saw it coming!” [Yes women can and must be able to support themselves. But single motherhood by choice = kids who are failures, on average.]
Alias Clio — You seem to be changing the subject. Earlier you said that men became more clueless with women. I don’t see how. Now you’re constructed out of anecdotal evidence the theory that it was (once again) all the nice guy’s fault. In fact, data from the CDC and other sources seem to confirm a rise in the number of sex partners dramatically during the late 1980’s and through the 1990’s, right in the middle of the AIDS epidemic. Outside the 1970’s coke-fueled elite, not many were having sex with lots of partners, “swinging” and such. Men in their thirties in the 1970s’ famously could buy a house on middle class income. Not so now, thirty years later.
LikeLike
Someone mentioned women have an inability to see the bigger picture. This is even the case when it concerns her OWN safety. Amazingly (to me anyway), there are many intelligent women who will, in the big urban cities, fuck dozens of men who they don’t know well. It is astounding that they don’t concern themselves with AIDS and other STD’s that can cause them serious harm. Even if condoms were used all the time (and they likely aren’t), these supposedly smart women seem to forget that condoms have a 15% FAILURE rate. Condoms weren’t mentioned on Sex and the City, so I guess they are not necessary.
And we wonder why STD’s keep spreading.
I don’t want to put out a “provider” vibe either. Since I’m a law student, I might be doing that, though I’m only a student and lawyers mostly don’t make the money of doctors. I wonder what another strategy to use is.
LikeLike
I think AliasClio is mistakenly assuming that Roissy’s analyis relies on the idea that these women are actually ‘getting’ the alpha males that they leave their beta husbands for. Women may be overestimating their ability to land an alpha mate simply because they are able to sleep with or ‘date’ such men so easily. An alpha may fuck a woman who is over 25, and to continue to sleep with her he may mislead her about the exclusivity of their relationship, but this should not be taken to imply that she really has a real shot at landing him. He may be dating several women simultaneously and expertly conveying to each that she is ‘his girl’. The wife then leaves her genuinely committed beta husband for an only apparently committed Alpha who kicks her to the curb within a year. This is all that has to happen for the beta provider to be left for an alpha.
Of course, given current divorce laws a woman may no longer need to be as concerned with landing an alpha in a long term monogamous relationship, as she can still be supported by her ex-husband while getting the fucking she wants from an alpha lothario.
LikeLike
Glengarry Glenpoon wrote: “Hey DoBA, don’t forget “Under my thumb”.”
Thank — I didn’t. It’s on “Aftermath,” one of the albums I mentioned. I just singled out that album’s “Stupid Girl” because it’s even worse (or better, depending on your mindset!).
LikeLike
Meanwhile, it’s easy to spot nice guys at age 25-29 or so who will be very likely to be in things for the long haul.
My two o m e g a male friends are a good example of this. They’re both in their late 30s and while squared-away in every normal way (decent jobs, they co-own a large house, nice cars, good personality when with other guys, one of them works out with me at my gym) there is an unmistakeable current of anger just below that nice guy surface.
I didn’t see it 10-15 years ago. Not even so much five years ago. But it’s palpable now. Even my wife, to whom they are very cordial and genuinely friendly, and who often joins me for Rock Band gaming at their house, can sense it.
When I push the subject with one of them — sometimes they find themselves compelled to go there — there is an almost scary hate for women, mingling with their genuinely well-brought-up, decent, well-meaning, boyscout selves.
LikeLike
Okay, there’s no GNP visible, but I figure these pictures should give Roissy some serious wood.
Peter
LikeLike
Meanwhile, it’s easy to spot nice guys at age 25-29 or so who will be very likely to be in things for the long haul.
Actually, if some girl is going to marry me only because I’m a beta provider who will worship her, and she has no real attraction towards me, then I’d much rather prefer to stay single, and she go away. In the end, I’ll simply end up supporting a woman who will simply cuckhold me, and quite frankly, I’d prefer to spend the money on myself instead of on somebody who really doesn’t love me, and only lies to extract money from me.
LikeLike
My two o m e g a male friends are a good example of this.
So why do you want to ruin their happiness by introducing them to women who will only use them and have no true love and attraction towards them?
When I push the subject with one of them — sometimes they find themselves compelled to go there — there is an almost scary hate for women, mingling with their genuinely well-brought-up, decent, well-meaning, boyscout selves.
Given that I’ve told myself that no self-respecting girl will ever want me or be attracted to me, I’ve somehow managed not to hate women. So, either your friends are happy, yet pathetic shells, or they have some emotional issues they should work out with a licensed therapist. I see no reason for any man to be spiteful or angry towards women.
LikeLike
You’re completely right. And that’s why it’s important to learn game — so that she’ll see you as the alpha stud she lusts after, not the beta chump she is using and secretly resenting.
LikeLike
Steve Johnson and GI Joe
Ouch, Ouch, Ouch! Wow, soooo much hate!!!
Wow, I’m speechless! My intentions were never to anger or to hurt anyone’s feelings. Nor did I want to indicate that I know more than everyone else here (my comment to you SteveJ was purely a defense mechanism-I’m only human). My first comment was meant to be just a simple extremely innocent (ulterior motive-wink, wink) comment (which was directed ONLY to Roissy, which he never even bother replying to…grrrr), didn’t mean to harm anyone! But obviously I’m being called names, which is just so shocking because the last time someone swore at me was when I was in elementary school. I go now…
*sniffle*
LikeLike
When did I ever say that I introduce them to women?
I actually did try to introduce one of them to the girlfriends of girls I used to date 6-7 years ago, but his lack of game hindered his success.
They actually have ways of meeting girls. For one, the company they work at is a hothouse but they pretty much get friended by the girls they work with.
They know the deal. They know about Game, they understand that it’s a valid concept, I led them to Roissy’ site… one of them is making a serious effort at improving his odds (he’s the one who works out with me at the gym) but the other guy claims that he’s so o m e g a that he is “beyond Game’s reach.”
It’s easy to moralize when you are 25. Wait till you’re 37.
LikeLike
Clio:
****
Steven Johnson, Bella’s post saying that men are guilty too wasn’t intended to excuse women’s misdeeds.
It was intended to deflate some of the outrage directed against women as a sex, here and elsewhere, by suggesting that both sexes are or can be equally guilty of abusing the other’s trust, bodies, money etc.
****
Clio, let’s imagine a world where sites run by feminists don’t delete the posts of men saying things they don’t like.
In this imaginary world, it would be fair…. but completely insane….. for this site to give equal time to the troubles of men, women, transexuals, and Pandas. This is because dealing with specific problems on specific sites is more efficient than wildly discussing everything at once. Did you know the Spotted Green Tree Frog is nearing extinction? Obviously if one continually switches from thing to thing it is easy to become distracted by the plunging birth rates of Western Europe and that can lead to a failure to consider the melting of the polar icecaps. That’s why we need to adopt a stray dog today!
However, in the real world, feminists get their ‘time’ on their completely censored sites. If they want to be ‘treated with respect’ they can go back to the echo chamber of their own lairs. I know *bleep* well I will be deleted if I post their sites. Is that ‘respect’? Or is ‘respect’ only for women?
LikeLike
> improving his odds (he’s the one who works out with me at the gym) but the other guy claims that he’s so o m e g a that he is “beyond Game’s reach.”
That’s the most mind-boggling thing about the whole Community experience to me. I know LOTS of guys who could benefit, some exactly like the friend you describe, PA.
At the same time, they were unwilling to change, despite the obvious, obvious advantages of change.
When I was really into the community, and my mind was being blown by what I was learning and doing, I would give lots of unsolicited advice, tips and reading material to guys who I *knew* would benefit. Most did nothing, a few took a peek… but only 1% or so actually stepped up, did the work that needed to be done, and succeeded.
A lot of these guys, particularly the older ones, didn’t want their view of reality smashed.
And there was that undercurrent of anger — they had done all the “right” things… it must be someone ELSE’S fault. In a way they were right (Whiskey’s spot on) but at the same time they didn’t accept that they had to live in their own environment and make the best of it (Mu and I agree on this 100%).
It’s gotten to the point where I just hint at what they might do… and if they really want my help, they have to ask for it.
LikeLike
I find this invasion interesting. I think the new commenters provide a great deal of raw data on the things talked about. However, treating them with respect? That’s silly.
And if you can’t be unreasonable, or just downright crazy, on a message board, then where can you be?
I do like an unmoderated site.
Sadly, it appears Half-Sigma has been destroyed by Sarah-Palin-Derrangement Syndrome… and he has locked down his site so he is apparently determined to run full steam over the edge. Oh well.
LikeLike
It’s easy to moralize when you are 25. Wait till you’re 37.
My niece and nephew hug me, and I have female friends. I guess I’m biased.
Still though, they have nice homes, nice cars, and male friends. I live at home with my parents, and I can’t even afford my hobbies anymore, and the only sex I can get is from my right hand or credit card. IMHO, they really don’t have a reason to be angry. As I like to point out, I have no right to be angry at women especially in light of my tastes in women. They like alphas and I like porn stars. 🙂
You’re completely right. And that’s why it’s important to learn game — so that she’ll see you as the alpha stud she lusts after
Yup, and I don’t want to learn game. I want her to like me for who I am as a beta so I won’t have to fake being you for the next eighty years of my life, but we all know that’s not going to happen.
LikeLike
DA
>Yup, and I don’t want to learn game. I want her to like me for who I am as a beta so I won’t have to fake being you for the next eighty years of my life, but we all know that’s not going to happen.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. This is the same excuse that every self-delusional beta gave me. Maybe you’re not delusional. Whatever.
In any case, I know you’re just putting on a comedic act for self-gratification. It’s hilarious in its own twisted way.
You’ve just had 5 minutes of attention from a stranger. Hope you’ve gotten some validation.
LikeLike
THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS THE MOST INSIGHTFUL ONE EVER POSTED ON THIS SITE
I think AliasClio is mistakenly assuming that Roissy’s analyis relies on the idea that these women are actually ‘getting’ the alpha males that they leave their beta husbands for. Women may be overestimating their ability to land an alpha mate simply because they are able to sleep with or ‘date’ such men so easily. An alpha may fuck a woman who is over 25, and to continue to sleep with her he may mislead her about the exclusivity of their relationship, but this should not be taken to imply that she really has a real shot at landing him. He may be dating several women simultaneously and expertly conveying to each that she is ‘his girl’. The wife then leaves her genuinely committed beta husband for an only apparently committed Alpha who kicks her to the curb
THE ABOVE PERFECTLY DESCRIBES AT LEAST THREE SITUATIONS I KNOW OF IN MANHATTAN –
The only question I have is, when the woman left her beta husband, what odds did she put on being able to retain the alpha ? I would put forth the hypothesis that some women are dumb enough to think they have 99% chance of retaining the alpha and some are smart enough to know the odds are only 10% but worth going for anyway
On another note, the theory put forth on this board is that the prospect of high alimony payments leads women to seek divorce – my understanding is that women married to high income men seek divorce at a much lower rate than women married to low income men. That would seem to indicate that the availability of alimony is not as great an incentive.
Anyone have statistics on what percentage of women whose husbands make over 500k seek divorce? over 300k? over 100k?
I’d like to see the facts.
LikeLike
I want her to like me for who I am as a beta so I won’t have to fake being you for the next eighty years of my life
I was a beta through my twenties. More precisely, I often did well with women up front due to my height, friendly cockiness, good looks, and ability to use my exotic background to my advantage, but with girls I liked more, I fucked things up letting my “treat her with respect because she is special” miseducation kick in. And I’d actually get used to girls who were hot for me predictably get cool and go away.
When I discovered the principles of Game at around 29-30, it took me a while to clean out the earwax that prevented me from listening to good advice.
“Yeah, I don’t wanna be some asshole to women, that’s not me” I told myself. But I read stuff on line, talked about this shit with an Alpha acquaintance… and whatever he told me, I’d always find some objection to. And then I heard the words that changed everythgn for me:
“Do you wanna be right, or do you wanna be happy?”
That got my attention. I realized that I was defensively committed to asserting my preconceived notions of how one should act with women rather than being open to learning somethign new. I started thinking back to the various girls I dated. I recall an unmistakeable patten of girls I was somewhat indifferent about falling crazy in love with me, while girls I wanted to have as girlfriends breaking up with me.
Or, when on dates with non-smoker girls I was nonchalant about I’d smoke cigarettes (I quit 5 years ago) and tease them — they’d still be all over me., But while with girls I dug I’d be a perfect gentleman, no smokes 6 hours prior to the date lest the smell betray me… with frustrating results.
At that point I started understanding that Game isn’t about changin your personality, but simply reconfiguring your apporach and adapting. And things changed for me big time.
LikeLike
Whiskey- men became more beta over the last 30-40 years in part due to the increase in divorce rates and subsequently being raised by women. So you get men hating moms raising sons. Throw in changes like the dramatic change in the gender ratio of school teachers and you have young men being raised in beta indoctrination. If you have ever dealt with boys and young men who have been raised in these circumstances it is notable how many strongly crave time and attention from male role models. Boys are being raised with almost no male guidance or influence. This is the void that “game” (I am gaining some sense of what this word means) is filling. Game is not a good replacement for fathers teaching sons how to be what I think of as “good men” (not the same as nice).
LikeLike
Whiskey, when are you going to update your blog?
LikeLike
Hope you’ve gotten some validation.
You’ve made an attention whore who should have been playing SimCity 4 very happy.
“Do you wanna be right, or do you wanna be happy?”
I’d rather be happy and be me than be right and kneel before Zod.
I was nonchalant about I’d smoke cigarettes (I quit 5 years ago) and tease them
For some reason, I’ve met a few girls who give off an alluring sexual scent when mixed with the smell of their preferred brand of cigarettes.
LikeLike
For some reason, I’ve met a few girls who give off an alluring sexual scent when mixed with the smell of their preferred brand of cigarettes.
Someone else here wrote something interesting: that there are three kinds of female attractiveness. Girls who are cute, girls who are beautiful, and girls who are hot.
The cute girls guys fall in love with. The beautiful ones guys worship, and the hot ones guys want to fuck like an animal.
I know the alluring effect you’re describing. It’s the hot girls. They aren’t always very attractive in a conventional way but there is something smoulderingly sexual about them and often goes hand-in-hand with Bad Girl markers, like cigarettes.
LikeLike
They aren’t always very attractive in a conventional way but there is something smoulderingly sexual about them and often goes hand-in-hand with Bad Girl markers
It’s the petite girl at work who sorta fills that role for me. Short, stylish red hair, fashionable clothes, slightly naturally tanned skin, nice ass, nails, heels, and a smoking habit. My interest in her seems to have created some jealousy in non-date girlfriend.
The cute girls guys fall in love with. The beautiful ones guys worship, and the hot ones guys want to fuck like an animal.
For me, cute girls are the girls you hug, hot girls are the ones you fuck, and beautiful girls are just pretty to look at.
LikeLike
When women didn’t have a foothold in the workplace, a man having a decent job was a big deal to a woman. So a decent salary/prestige meant Alpha.
This is something I noticed even before I began reading about these issues. In traditional society, there was a certain degree of alphaness conferred simply by being male. A man was “impressive” to a woman merely by dint of being a man. So many of the betas of today who are cast aside by women as losers would be attractive to them if we still lived in a society where men were the providers and women dependent on us.
This also pertains to the issue of medicine losing its status. Medicine used to be this esoteric, impenetrable, masculine world to women, and therefore alluring. Now, your typical college-educated twentysomething girl has friends, roomates, or sisters who are med students or residents. The “ooh, that guy’s a DOCTOR” factor was partially based on the image of medicine as macho; now that image is gone. Why would she be impressed by my wild stories from the ER when she hears such stories from her friends every day?
LikeLike
My interest in her seems to have created some jealousy in non-date girlfriend.
Kneeling before Zod after all?
LikeLike
Kneeling before Zod after all?
Eh, non-date girlfriend and I have fizzled out. I didn’t do anything and dumped her in the friend zone, and she’s moved on to looking for other men. We just talk to each other at work, text each other, and eat out every so often, but otherwise, we don’t do anything anymore, and it’s obvious that she’s grown tired of waiting for me to do “something” with her. That weird vibe (or spark) just isn’t there anymore.
LikeLike
David Alexander:
“Actually, if some girl is going to marry me only because I’m a beta provider who will worship her, and she has no real attraction towards me, then I’d much rather prefer to stay single, and she go away. In the end, I’ll simply end up supporting a woman who will simply cuckhold me, and quite frankly, I’d prefer to spend the money on myself instead of on somebody who really doesn’t love me, and only lies to extract money from me.”
Not so long ago, this likely wouldn’t have been the case. In the Old America, there is no doubt that many wives genuinely loved their beta husbands. Their beta husband was likely the only man she ever had sex with, and the pair bonding emotions flooding her were correspondingly strong. One other thing about the dead and buried old America is that, while money has always been important, it wasn’t everything. There was also honor, virtue, integrity – and just being a “real man.” If a man lived up to these standards, he could be respected and admired, even though his income was not great.
These virtues don’t require an Alpha Pyramid with a handful on top, and almost everyone else on the bottom. Any normal man could partake of these virtues and demonstrate them. Liberalism’s destruction of these “manly” virtues left a vacuum in the society. We’ve seen the crap that has filled that void. The modern, popular culture driven idea of manliness is so ridiculous and absurd that no quality person could want to be a part of it. Be a man!! Just like MTV tells you to be.
Also, any lifetime relationship is likely to hit rough patches. If the social pressure to stay together is strong, the couple will likely survive these patches, and be glad that they did.
In today’s environment, chances are the girl never really pair bonded with the beta in the first place. Also, the social pressures to avoid leaving him have largely evaporated, hence relationships fall apart over nothing. That doesn’t mean that a generation or two ago everybody was “forced” to stay together. They weren’t. There were significant amounts of divorce then as well, though not the epidemic that we have seen in recent decades.
Point is that in the past, couples COULD break up if they really wanted to. The fact that most didn’t should tell you something. I can’t resist saying how fitting it is that a liberal who supports the current regime will not likely ever find love, precisely because of the crazy ideas that he espouses. The liberal doesn’t even understand that the ideas he parrots with such fervor were created by people who hate him, and never had his best interests at heart. There is some poetic justice in this world.
And if your type were the only victims of the system, I wouldn’t be concerned with the issue. Hey, you guys made your beds. The problem is that your views have created an environment that harms lots of men and women that don’t deserve it. Shame!!! Shame on you David Alexander!! Just kidding. Kind of.
LikeLike
PA – I’m similar to you I think. Almost 31, not terrible looking, have attracted some hot girls before but have always ended up fucking it up, or even sabotaging it myself. Now I’m in NYC for the first time, and I see a lot of the evidence of the issues discussed on this blog. I’ve read lots of David DeAngelo’s stuff and blogs like this one and for some reason it really doesn’t help me in bars, law school, wherever. I think women may sense a vibe of too eager, as a matter of fact I know I give it off sometimes.
I don’t think I’d want to become a “pickup artist” – I’d just really like to learn some techniques to better socialize/date women. I can understand the resistance to drastically changing things, for me it relates to not wanting to give in to a terribly flawed system which is causing our country’s destruction from within. But as I’m in law school and around a decent amount of women (not great in looks or personality but worth practicing on) I figure I might as well try something different.
PA I will add something else. Your omega friends are in their late 30’s, which means the women they interact are probably in their 30’s too, and with biological clocks ticking down to near zero for marriage and family. If you need game for THOSE girls, it’s even worse than I thought! Unless they refuse to settle for some used-up alpha-fucker or single mom, in which case their principles elevate them at least to beta status.
LikeLike
PA —
Yeah, my experience too. Women have no clue just how much resentment the losers have for the winners. You’d think they’d get it.
Women are often clueless in other ways about personal safety. Beyond Jack’s point is the parade of women murdered by their boyfriends of the moment. Natalee Holloway? What, Johan Van Der Sloot was such a great prize it was smart to go out of the club with that guy alone? In a foreign country. Guy was a straight up thug, and she thought she was magically immune.
I’ve seen women writers posting about how good, decent guys they knew in their twenties, who wanted to marry their girlfriends (who said no and moved on) “spoiled” and became somewhat immature, self-centered nasty guys in their thirties. The flip side perhaps ofred the nice guy beta/omega type who could have been something in his twenties but experienced only negatives with women, with predictable results.
I can see why Game would be resisted. It tells people that their own selves are not good enough and they must pretend to be someone else, and moreover risk humiliation and failure again in an area where they’ve never known anything but failure. A guy can realistically lose weight and get in shape. But to be successful with women after about 20 years of failure (age 15 to age 35?) Most guys at that point will say no.
Now, these guys are not going away. They are not just going to simply disappear. They’ll be the guys stepping over the woman sprawled on the sidewalk after a mugging. Walking right past some Alpha’s kid being assaulted. And so on.
Culturally, Western Civilization from Beowulf (circa AD 600 or so oral origin) to the Song of Roland and the Robin Hood / King Arthur Legends have presented a model of male behavior for Beta guys. Be physically brave, respectful of women and inferiors, deferential to superiors, and mindful of tradition. This was the path to success and it was pretty much anti-PUA. Now we are asking young men to act like Peacocks not Beowulf or King Arthur or Robin Hood.
That’s a huge shift, one that goes against about 1400 years of cultural tradition in the West.
Or, what Ryder said. He’s spot on.
Sestambi — I will update my blog soon. I’ve had a bad holiday season, most of my family in/out of the hospital. Which accounts for my posting habits late at night.
LikeLike
I would suggest the way out of the morass of today’s Crap Society as Ryder put it would be:
1. Children. Women ought to know that their kids will be largely unsuccessful and unhappy, particularly boys, if they are single mothers.
2. Personal Safety — Women ought to know they are at huge risk from male aggression/violence unless they are very careful. Edgy, dangerous bad boys are much higher risk to be the aggression driven danger versus nice guy Joe Average (in his twenties or earlier, before he gets bitter/angry).
3. Collapse of the female-driven economy such as fashion, media, etc.
LikeLike
DavidA and other hopeless betas don’t really need to learn Game. (for now)
All they need is to
1) APPROACH WOMEN.
2) Get involved in some masculine group activities. Thursday poker night, pickup basketball, whatever.
The unspoken preface to Game is that it’s tailored toward women with options. But there are women out there who are plain (not repulsive) and who will put out for a dork who is persistent and has some degree of awkward likeability.
Think of the first “Rocky”. Adrian seems non-responsive to Rocky, mostly because she’s locked up in general. He feels exposed and sheepish but keeps pushing for more interaction, and eventually they hook up. The actress who played her had a pretty tight body too, you can see her in a nightie in one of the later flicks.
Point is, Rocky had ZERO game. And he still got some tail because he was willing to look foolish and escalate.
Most super-betas get burned once and never try again. For these guys spending 10-20 bucks every week or so on a mini-golf/arcade/poolhall/ice skating date is a useful, *necessary* step up from monastic self-isolation.
LikeLike
My two o m e g a male friends are a good example of this. They’re both in their late 30s and while squared-away in every normal way (decent jobs, they co-own a large house, nice cars, good personality when with other guys, one of them works out with me at my gym) there is an unmistakeable current of anger just below that nice guy surface.
PA, why have these men fallen into omegahood? Very ugly? Utterly lacking in game?
LikeLike
PA:
why the spacing of “omega”?
LikeLike
Mason is right on the money -the situation is not dire for betas that are out there – join a church, a bicycling group, a few book groups.
Don’t choose self isolation –
I would emphasize group settings where you get to know a people over time
LikeLike
whiskey: “I would suggest the way out of the morass of today’s Crap Society as Ryder put it would be:
1. Children. Women ought to know that their kids will be largely unsuccessful and unhappy, particularly boys, if they are single mothers.”
Whiskey, women do seem to know this. It’s been in the media for years. But out of wedlock births seem to go up and up. What do we conclude from this?
One answer is that woman don’t seem to care, or fully get the ramifications of this. The other is that the men getting them pregnant don’t care. My guess is that it’s a little of both.
The combination of women being liberated, changes in morality, reduction of wages vs. inflation overall and the feminist media have all helped bring this situation about.
Who benefits?
Dick Cheney, government “workers,” and all the people the own a piece of the mega-industrial-sized prison complex in the US, which houses more prisoners than any nation, even China. The more prisons we need, the more money these people make (hence the “crackdown culture” we have). And the more kids brought into broken families, the more men you have in prison (a statistical fact, not an opinion).
If you read my post carefully, you’ll see I’m blaming both the left and right, which are both amoral on some level. There needs to be a new type of political thinking about all this.
LikeLike
I’m new to reading this site and am curious what all you PUAs see as your future. Do you plan on getting married? If so, do you expect to find a woman who has had few sexual partners — or does it not matter as long as she is a “good” woman?
With the way you guys are busting pussy right and left, it doesn’t seem like many women are going to be around with low sexual experience.
LikeLike
Mason is right on the money -the situation is not dire for betas that are out there – join a church, a bicycling group, a few book groups.
Don’t choose self isolation –
I would emphasize group settings where you get to know a people over time
Even joining an activity involving mostly men can be useful. It will improve the Beta’s social skills, and he may meet women through the men he gets to know.
Peter
LikeLike
why the spacing of “o m e g a”?
I noticed that for some reason this word, when spelled normally, sends the message to the moderation cue, and it doesn’t get posted until Roissy approves it.
LikeLike
PA, why have these men fallen into o m e g a hood? Very ugly? Utterly lacking in game?
Not really ugly at all. They’re both normal white American guys, tall, intellignet, not strikingly handsome but nevertheless normal looking.
The first guy is “Ace.” He is the one who claims to be “beyond Game’s reach.” I befriended him when I came to the US in junior high school without knowing more than 10 words in English. He’s always been physically awkward and sucked at sports, had odd but inoffensive quirks, been picked on by jocks in school and for some reason always evoked an “eeeew” response in girls, due to his physical awkwardness and shyness.
Intrestingly, he’s got a great “guy personality.” Most of the men he now hangs out with are smart-alpha 30-something black guys, or cocky mid-20s white guys who practice game. They go gambling, strip-clubbing, or play fighting video games together.
He’s extroerted, tells hillarious stories, but is timid in confrontations, and very nervous around girls. He’s had some marginal success with women in his 20s, but it’s been “professionals” since. He is a classic Nice Guy chump. He will _even now_ meet some girl he likes (all in their 20s – he says he finds women over 30 physically repulsive) and will drive her around, wine and dine her, buy her shit, fall in love with her… and listen to her tales of “hot guys” this or that.
The other guy – “Mike.” He is the one who woks out with me at my gym. He was originally one of Ace’s many friends, and in a way he is his exact opposite. He’s got a tough demeanor, has zero shyness, but is too much of a techno geek to relate easily to women. Many guys find him off-putting as well for that reason.
Like I said, he is confident, but a bit of a soft-boiled egg with women: as soon as some cute girl talks with him, he turns into a pussycat. In fact, he now harbors a schoolboy crush on one of the female trainers at my gym. She’s in her mid-30s and has a ring on her finger. His modus operandi with girls is the old-fashioned chivalrous knight, taken to an extreme.
This is something he and I were talking about over a couple of beers after our workout on Friday. He is starting to recognize his problems, and his “nice guy” pattern of behavior. He is taking the whole Game thing seriously. To his credit, he’s lost a lot of weight at the gum (he joined at my insistence) and cut back on drinking and pot smoking, whiich was kind of a problem for a while.
LikeLike
I think the betas on this site have to decide what it is that they want – if they are looking to get married to a woman who is equal to them on the social scale, and they are looking to close the deal within 18 months, I Think there there a number of avenues they can pursue. Get to know a few dozen married males who you identify with and respect, let them know, and they will have their wives introduce you to suitable single females.
If you are a beta and you know how to get a few dozen stable normal married males to like you and respect you, you will have no trouble getting set up with females who are at your level.
With all due respect to most of the beta males on this site, I think that you probably fall in to one of the following categories
(1) you are a six that dreams of marrying a nine
(2) you are looking for sex that won’t lead to marriage
(3) you lack the ability to make a few dozen normal married males like you and respect you
I would like the other folks on this blog to break down the betas here in to the above three categories – I think i can have more focused comments if I understand what category the betas on this site fall in to
LikeLike
Comment_Perspective, it isn’t good for men to stew in the bathos of bitterness against women, if they want to find a pretty girlfriend or merely a woman to share a few hot nights with. In fact, it’s self-defeating.
That’s why I’m anxious to point out here that the situation we all face isn’t entirely women’s fault, or men’s – that it’s a kind of monster that ran out of our control when both sexes began to over-indulge their hedonistic impulses at the expense of the future.
LikeLike
and they will have their wives introduce you to suitable single females.
Who will eventually assrape the dudes in divorce court.
LikeLike
There are a number of debates going on here – let me clarify –
One debate is the “get married” vs “stay single” debate. The “stay single” guys like Smiler make a very strong very persuasive case that if anyone on this board gets married he will face a resentful angry wife that deliberately impregnates herself with the sperm of an alpha and then divorce her husband and extract all his wealth through the divorce process.
I can’t argue with anything that the “stay single” folks are saying.
However, let’s put that aside for one moment and go under the assumption that a few of the betas on this site have fully studied the implications of getting married and decided that they want to go for it anyway.
OK – let’s assume that they have decided that they are happy getting married to a woman at the same level that they are at (ie a 5 marries a 5, a 9 marries a 9)
Let’s go on that assumption for a moment and focus on how to close the deal
LikeLike
“DON’T GET MARRIED WITHOUT A PRE-NUP!!!!!
if the parties can’t come to an agreement, great. that means they shouldn’t be getting married to begin with.”
Prenups are not worth the paper they are written on once you have children. At that point the Judge has ultimate say regardless of what your prenup may say.
LikeLike
Days of broken arrows:
“If you read my post carefully, you’ll see I’m blaming both the left and right, which are both amoral on some level. There needs to be a new type of political thinking about all this.”
Agreed. I tend to target the libs more, simply because they openly advocate many of the things that destroyed the Old America. They are the true believers, the fervent foot soldiers of cultural decay.
But, in the bigger picture, there are many other forces at work. For example, modern conservatism isn’t really conservatism at all. Instead, it simply quibbles with the Left on a few issues, but has largely conceded the fight. Totally ineffective. Most modern conservatives are in fact liberals in conservative clothing, and in that way they are actually more dangerous and destructive than the real liberals. The true lib you can see coming from a mile away. The real danger is the so called conservative that gets gullible people to believe that he is on their side. He isn’t.
The main thing modern conservatives do believe in is money. They want plenty more of it, and have raised this to a political ideal. The problem is that unrestrained, global capitalism (as opposed to smaller scale free enterprise) is inherently at odds with traditional values. Big business wants to be able to move people and capital anywhere it wants. Tribal loyalties and tradition only get in the way of this. Big business wants to be able to import third worlders by the tens of millions, or offshore jobs so that they don’t have to pay first world wages, and so forth. They get you coming and going.
Big business therefore is perfectly comfortable with the rootless, atomized individual who has no ties or traditional loyalties. Such a person is willing to move around the continent or the planet to chase whatever carrot the globalists put in front of him. Such a person simply wishes to consume (what else is there?), and therefore is also a great customer. A rootless worker and a self-medicating consumer. Perfect from the elite standpoint. Indoctrinate him with some foggy ideas about being a global citizen or how diversity is our greatest strength, and presto! you’ve got your perfect cog in the machine. The important thing is to strip him of any tribal identity, especially if he/she is white. Tribes can be dangerous to elites. Atomized individuals are not.
And, as you point out, there is a lot of money to be made off of societal decay. There is a lot of money to be made off of human misery. The current elites, be they liberal or nonimally conservative, have proven unfit to rule. The lib, being an evil cuss, seems to actually enjoy seeing the cultural degradation and human misery. The so called conservative (being an amoral cuss) is happy because he can make plenty of money. It’s a Punch and Judy show.
LikeLike
Ryder – that is an excellent comment.
LikeLike
No, PA, Ryder is just another collectivist, who belongs over on Majority Rights.
There is no “unrestrained capitalism”, just crony corporatism.
People and capital should not be restrained by silly invisible lines called borders, and luckily, won’t be. Get used to it.
Anyone not a libertarian or anarchist by now deserves starvation and poverty. With Obama’s new New Deal, they’ll get just that.
LikeLike
People and capital should not be restrained by silly invisible lines called borders, and luckily, won’t be. Get used to it. Anyone not a libertarian or anarchist by now deserves starvation and poverty.
You are either 15 years old, a borderline-autistic, or an idiot.
LikeLike
Thanks for the props, Ryder.
To bring this discussion back home, I’ll add that another way the left and right are similar is that they both produce antiquated, misdirected chivalrous men. These men may have had a purpose in, like, 1944, but now all they do is feed the egos of woman whose self-image is already blown way out of proportion.
On the left we have guys like the old-time journalist/editors with whom I used to work. These idiot graybeards would saunter into meetings in their liberal-guy uniforms (baggy shirts, sandals) and talk about how we needed to do this or that with stories or office policy because they something was allegedly “deeply offensive” to women.
On the right, there are the uniformed, jarheaded “double meat subs at Subway” robots who are always rushing to get doors, lift boxes, and fix cars or whatnot for women.
Both of these types of guys wind up castrated by today’s women. The liberals get zapped with sexual harrassment claims from office wenches who live to break weak men; the conservatives wind up with their wives screwing miscreants while they’re mistakenly tyring to save this hell-in-a-handbasket society. Both of the above happened to men I know.
LikeLike
So what does your ideal society look like? Should most people be settling down by their early twenties (median married age for women 26, DC has the highest median, at 29). Should women be forced to forgo careers and education? Should men reach for their tens, even if they are only a six? Ban all birth control and abortions, so no one gets any sex at all?
LikeLike
One of the problems is that women’s luxury of choice means that even 5s can passively test, which means that many betas’ early failures weren’t really failures at all, just a feminism-induced pause at (for example) a woman going limp in his arms, waiting passively for sex. That’s not explicit consent, as the feminists remind us, so one errs on the side of caution.
The other thing is that (yes) the burden of being told to change oneself and try constantly, knowing that there will be a lot of rejection, in a realm of life where one has always known rejection. It may be that the entry costs to Game are higher the older the beta is…
There is also an unsubtle bias against sarging with newbies, you don’t actually get any support in the Game that you don’t pay for without *already* being above a certain level of social competence and coolness.
LikeLike
Anonymous:
“So what does your ideal society look like? Should most people be settling down by their early twenties (median married age for women 26, DC has the highest median, at 29). Should women be forced to forgo careers and education? Should men reach for their tens, even if they are only a six? Ban all birth control and abortions, so no one gets any sex at all?”
Good question, and of course there are a thousand answers. The problems that we face come from all sorts of sources, so there is not going to be a simple solution or easy fix. The problem is systemic. I do not believe in reform.
I don’t think that it is necessary for people to marry early, as I’ve mentioned before. Look into the “European Marriage Pattern.” In much of Europe in prior centuries, the average age at marriage was about the same as we have today. This was a European exception, as in most traditional socieities women were married off very, very young.
And yet, there was very little illegitimacy in traditional Europe, this in a society that knew next to nothing of birth control. And they didn’t have to put women in burkhas to get the job done. It seems counterintuitive to the modern mind: delayed marriage, minimal illegitimacy, and yet a great deal of freedom for women compared to other traditional socieities. As a sidenote, you’ll find that a significant minority of men and women never married at all.
Point is that there is no one set answer, no one size that fits all. The Japanese answer might be very different from the arab answer, which in turn will be very different from the white answer, and different from the black answer.
Every people has to find its own way. The first step is breaking free from the diversity propaganda so that we can start thinking like a people again, rather than MTV caricatures. Once you recognize that you are part of a real people, with real interests, then you can start to think in terms of what is best for your people. I realize that Mark in Ark is spitting out his soup as he reads this. Collectivism!!! What would Ayn Rand say!!!?? LOL!
Then we must realize that, while we can’t go back, we can learn from the past. To me the European Marriage Pattern of centuries past is VERY interesting, and it shows something about an “ideal” that can be achieved in the real world. But I think a good starting point is to push for a culture in which relationships are taken seriously, and that those who are careless with others are socially sanctioned.
Now, this wouldn’t be good for me in particular, but it would be good for society. It would create a culture in which most people would have a good chance at finding love and living satisfied, meaningful lives. Some people would still blow it, no doubt, but there is no getting around that. The best we can do is have a society where the odds aren’t stacked against people so much. After that, it is up to each person to make of life what he/she can.
LikeLike
Anonymous asked: “So what does your ideal society look like?”
I don’t think we should even attempt to answer that here. Who cares?
The idea here is that men should assess society and women realistically in order to better get a grasp of the way they deal w/ women and, therefore, the kind of lives they want for themselves. To do that we analyse society, woman and men, often to provide examples of what’s out there and what not to do.
Long before there were blogs like this, there were adviae columns for women in magazines that picked apart everything about men. No one there was asking what society these women wanted. I shudder to think of the answer we would have gotten.
LikeLike
In today’s environment, chances are the girl never really pair bonded with the beta in the first place.
Given that most marriages in the past were simply women choosing men based on their ability to tolerate him in exchange for financial support, I’d imagine that there wasn’t much pair bonding either.
Point is that in the past, couples COULD break up if they really wanted to. The fact that most didn’t should tell you something.
The problem is that even with child support and alimony, women simply didn’t have access to middle class wages and credit needed to live somewhat successfully on their own. If the choice is between living poorly or living well with the beta loser, then most women would accept that option. So while men think their wives really love them, their wives are simply using them for money. As I’ve stated before, I suspect that cuckholdry was probably more common before the 1960s since it was the only outlet for women to bang the alphas that they truly craved.
They’ll be the guys stepping over the woman sprawled on the sidewalk after a mugging. Walking right past some Alpha’s kid being assaulted.
In think in the case of the former, somebody will call 911. In the case of the latter, I’d understand why people wouldn’t bother getting hurt. As I’ve stated, I’m not putting myself in a position where my mom is going to appear on the news crying because she lost her son.
Think of the first “Rocky”.
It’s a frigging movie. It’s not real life, but a scripted event with a Hollywood happy ending.
Whiskey, women do seem to know this. It’s been in the media for years. But out of wedlock births seem to go up and up. What do we conclude from this?
With the exception of a small group of urban women who are desperate for children, but can’t find suitable men that meet their standards for a married men, I suspect what’s happening is that the increasing number of out of wedlock births can be traced to those of lower socio-economic class who simply aren’t getting married. The upper and middle classes still get married, and most of them hold out for marriage to have children. The lower class on the other hand is experiencing the loss of marriage as their marriage rates have tanked.
Interestingly, I’d suspect that if you grew up without a father, and your friends didn’t do so, you don’t understand why you need one, and you view a child support check as a suitable alternative.
The important thing is to strip him of any tribal identity, especially if he/she is white.
That means I get to have white friends. That’s a benefit for me. 🙂
LikeLike
Days of Broken Arrows:
“I don’t think we should even attempt to answer that here. Who cares?”
haha, I wish I had read this before writing my own answer. I happen to care, but that’s just me.
As a practical matter, though, you are right. It’s a minefield out there, but there happens to be some good stuff scattered in the minefield. If you want the goodies and don’t want to get maimed for your troubles, this kind of blog is priceless. As you mention, there was nothing for us growing up in the years before the internet. Wish I had this kind of information back in the nineties. A guy can either learn from good advice, or he can learn the hard way. Life’s too short to learn many lessons the hard way. Avoiding just one major mistake can shave off years of misery. I’d call that a good deal.
LikeLike
David Alexander:
“Given that most marriages in the past were simply women choosing men based on their ability to tolerate him in exchange for financial support, I’d imagine that there wasn’t much pair bonding either.”
I don’t accept this as true. Of course, there are no statistics to cover what actual feelings women had for the betas in the Old America, but I think it is pretty clear that many of them genuinely loved their husbands. I’ve known any number of elderly couples that grew up in the “Old America.” Most of them don’t strike me as fitting your description. Some do, but not most. Far from it. And for those who have experience with women, we know how powerful those early pair bonding emotions can be in women. We also know how women with numerous sex partners aren’t likely to pair bond with the beta husband that they settle for. But if he was the only guy that she had sex with, those pair bonding emtions would be directed at him. I don’t see how you can dismiss this as an important factor.
You also assert that women will stay with a beta for financial reasons. Well, duh. But when she has slutted around and lost her ability to pair bond with the beta, what do you expect?
As to cuckoldry being more common in the past, I doubt it. The evidence seems to suggest that women are cheating more than ever now.
” That means I get to have white friends. That’s a benefit for me.”
lol But is it a benefit for them?
LikeLike
The problem is that unrestrained, global capitalism (as opposed to smaller scale free enterprise) is inherently at odds with traditional values. Big business wants to be able to move people and capital anywhere it wants….Big business therefore is perfectly comfortable with the rootless, atomized individual who has no ties or traditional loyalties. Such a person is willing to move around the continent or the planet to chase whatever carrot the globalists put in front of him. Such a person simply wishes to consume (what else is there?), and therefore is also a great customer. A rootless worker and a self-medicating consumer.
This is a great comment. But surely you realize that at its extreme a lifestyle based around “game” is a particularly toxic expression of just the consumption-based attitude you’re talking about. The endless search for more pussy is self-medication. The inability to take the risk of actually commiting to a single woman and therefore making yourself vulnerable prevents putting down roots. Women become interchangeable consumer goods instead of the basis for forming a family.
LikeLike
“You cry about being raped (even when you deserve it and asked for it)”
…And that phrase perfectly summarizes everyone who subscribes to the views in this blog. You’re all fucking disgusting- cheers!
LikeLike
And by the by, women having a much lower median of sexual partners than men is logically and mathematically impossible. To wit, Dr. Gale of Berkeley:
“Surveys and studies to the contrary notwithstanding, the conclusion that men have substantially more sex partners than women is not and cannot be true for purely logical reasons.
By way of dramatization, we change the context slightly and will prove what will be called the High School Prom Theorem. We suppose that on the day after the prom, each girl is asked to give the number of boys she danced with. These numbers are then added up giving a number G. The same information is then obtained from the boys, giving a number B.
Theorem: G=B
Proof: Both G and B are equal to C, the number of couples who danced together at the prom. Q.E.D.”
Please roissy, try and disprove that. I cannot wait to see you flounder. And what will you do when you realize that the one “fact” that legitimizes your argument is gasp! so very false?
LikeLike
@serenity,
Please study the limitations of self-reporting. This is a highly unreliable method, even for such behaviors as tooth-brushing.
LikeLike
@ serenity_now
The counter-proof is easy, because you’re not actually measuring the correct situation. You’re failing to take into account distribution.
Consider the following extreme example:
There are 100 men and 100 women in a closed population.
99 of the men are virgins until they marry. Lifetime sexual partners = 1.
However, 1 man is a complete playa and is fought over tooth and nail by the women. He sleeps with all 100 women before he marries the most alpha who screams “In your face!” to all the other women. Total partners = 100.
By derivation, 1 woman (Mrs. Playa) has had one lifetime sexual partner.
But 99 of them have had 2, or DOUBLE the experience of their husbands.
The median for men = 1; the median for women = 2.
Quod erat demonstrandum
Yes, the AVERAGE number of partners for men and women is the same. But forgetting to notice the highly skewed distribution is to be willfully blind.
LikeLike
I’ve been watching this story in the back of every cab I’ve been in this weekend. Yeah, when you see him, you realize he’s kind of sad and pathetic. BUT, on paper alone, he should win.
She cheated. And she’s suing him for EVERYTHING he’s worth. He’s just countersuing.
And he should win.
LikeLike
anony: I’m well aware. Rather beta of roissy to rely on studies which utilize such methods, no?
JAM: Read it again. The original proof includes the outliers. I’m not willfully blind; you are depending on a logical impossibility to prove a nonexistent point.
LikeLike
ryder:
” But if he was the only guy that she had sex with, those pair bonding emtions would be directed at him. I don’t see how you can dismiss this as an important factor.”
He doesn’t dismiss it. He just ignores it and repeats like a broken record. He’s a dull troll. We’d all be better off if everyone ignored him.
serenity_now:
“…And that phrase perfectly summarizes everyone who subscribes to the views in this blog. You’re all fucking disgusting- cheers!”
Might want to recalibrate the troll meter.
The poster who wrote what you disdained was one of your jezebelers and was trying to mock the people who post here. You, being a dim-wit, take the post literally. Good job.
LikeLike
He’s extroerted, tells hillarious stories, but is timid in confrontations, and very nervous around girls.
I see. The Treatise of Love (see Roissy’s links) calls this low rank potential. He needs to learn assertiveness. Is this friend of yours timid in general or only in confrontations with others?
LikeLike
JAM: Read it again. The original proof includes the outliers. I’m not willfully blind; you are depending on a logical impossibility to prove a nonexistent point.
Ummm… right. Let’s use your Berkeley professor’s reasoning and the example I have given you
each girl is asked to give the number of boys she danced with
G = (99 x 2) + (1 x 1) = 199
B = (99 x 1) + (1 x 100) = 199
G = B
So what? This doesn’t negate the fact that median* woman (number 50 of the 99) has had 2 sexual partners while the median man (number 50 of the 99) has had 1.
Quod erat demonstrandum
Remember — mathematics is a wishful-thinking-free zone
LikeLike
Just to reiterate, this means that in the above example 99 of the married couples are going to have the wives twice as sexually experienced as the men (2 vs. 1). One, of course (Mr. and Mrs. Playa) will have a husband 100 times as experienced as the wife.
Thus the experience of the VAST majority of men in this example (99%) is having a wife with more sexual partners than he has had (2 times as much in fact).
LikeLike
JAM Please reread, yet again. It a mathematical and logical fallacy. You are assuming a total population of 100 people with an exact patterning of sexual parters.
In short, you are relying on a logical fallacy. Do try again, won’t you?
LikeLike
Speaking of wives leaving their beta husbands for the alpha and then getting kicked to the curb.
One woman I know has a son with a wife and two young kids. The wife slept around, then moved out with the children for her new lover.
About two weeks later the son is watching T.V. at home alone. Cops come to the door. He has 30 minutes or something to move out. His newly dumped wife has called the cops and told them a story about domestic violence. So, guilty as charged. He had to fight to get back into his own house. You have to wonder who the kids are.
That fact that women support such laws tells me all I need to know about women and American marriage. AVOID.
LikeLike
Field Report: Operation “Brown Sugah”
Sun Jan 11 2009
Obsidian Reporting
My plans for the weekend got off to a completely rough start; it was as if Murphy’s Law was putting me to the ultimate test.
Me, Sparks and Ricky The Cancer had plans to unite on Fri night for a night of Sarging accross the City of Brotherly Love. However, at the last minute, Ricky couldn’t make it, due to his hittin’ it hard to the Left on this chick who’s home on leave from Iraq and drove in from VA to see him; he couldn’t ditch her, and was stuck.
Then, on my end, I had a near meltdown on the homefront with the Landlady. Can’t go into all the details, but suffice it to say, that it was at least in part due to my recent activities. Lemme tell ya fellas, Females watch you very, very closely, and when I say “Females” I mean it. It isn’t just confined to those you date. It’s any Female in your orbit, from coworkers to landladies. If they know you’re putting the Rod of Correction to another Women or number of Women, theire reaction to that may vary accross the spectrum. Usually, I’ve found that when a Woman knows what you’re doing and what the fortunate Women of your operations are getting, and *they aren’t getting any from anywhere or anyone*, they can really go off the deepend. Trust me, I have marked this and seen it many times over the years. It’s some deep ish.
OK, so to the events of yesterday.
According to The Game and Mystery Method, the Seven Hour Rule works like this: it takes anywhere from four to ten hours to get a Woman from First Contact to your Bedchamber, with an average of seven hours, hence the name of the concept. Mystery and his students, strongly advocate using this concept for it reinforces the use of Solid Game – you’ve put your Target through all the paces, locked in her interest, gotten her to invest in your emotionally; you’ve built trust, comfort and rapport; and your Seduction of her is on firm footing.
Now, this can be done in the course of one day, or over the course of a month – 30 minutes jawing on the horn here, some text messaging back and forth for 15 minutes there, an hour at a cafe, and so on. The idea is, the more time you build towards that Magic Number, the more likely it is that you’ll be making your Target call out for Jesus.
That was the case yesterday with “Brown Sugah”, whom I’ve mentioned a few times before in previous posts. I met her elsewhere on the Internet, and my Seduction of her was all a case study in the application of the Mystery Method.
In a group discussion that I started, I experimented with what I call a “Daisy Cutter/Clusterbomb Neg” – going into a crowd of Women and letting loose a big ole Neg on a topic that is very sensitive to Women. I wanted to see if it would work, and boy, did it!-the Sisterhood as A-N-G-R-Y. Good! Stir her passions (Mystery talks about this, btw), it’ll make the Seduction much easier to pull off.
Brown Sugah, by her own admission, was roiling mad and couldn’t hold herself back from commenting on what I said, and demanded to know what my angle was for bringing up such a controversial (codeword for HOT when a Woman says it) topic. I responded, and of course, I got a few “sour grapes” type Ad Homs from a few Sisters. One of them I’ve mentioned, the chick from Africa who spilled her guts to me. I had considered her for the treatment, but ultimately decided against it based on other factors.
Anyway, after putting down some attempts to move on me by moderators, etc (and thereby raising my value and social cred), Brown Sugah follows me accross the Internet to another venue I visit. When I see her suddenly appear there, I contact her to ask if she’s following me. She gives me some BS response but the cat’s outta the bag.
The Hunt, is ON…
She calls herself emailing me for my “expert opinion” on a few matters, and I decide for making a Bold Move as Green would call it, simply cutting right to the chase. Or, I suppose I Phase-Shifted? I don’t know. I just know that it worked. Like a Mutha.
OK, so now we start kicking it in Cyberspace. The other day she told me that we had exchanged, get ready for this, damn near 3,000 text messages over the past month, according to her account report. LOL…and based on this and similar operations in the past, I must respectfully disagree with Roissy here – the more you text, the closer you get to that Thang. Trust me. I’m living proof.
I knew that if I kept working that Seven Hour Clock I’d be in like Flint, along with working the, and I just LOVE how Roissy put this, Full Suite Of Pre-existing Alpha Traits. I’ve already appropriated that for use in the Obsidian Lexicon.
So yea, all those texts, a few phone calls here and there, and emails, all counted to the Seven Hour Clock.
So, we finally meet yesterday – Brown Sugah is 5’10”, brownskinned, cute locs (Nicole would be proud), a serious Rumpshaker, 40DD rack, hourglass figure, and a cute face. In fact her pics online don’t do her justice.
She thinks I’m the Sugar Honey Iced Tea. Of course.
Just to cement things, I do a bit of time shifting, switching locales andf trying out a few things I’d read in the MM: we meet at the train station (she’s coming in from the North outta state) and head to the Supermarket to pickup a few things, among them chocolate syrup. While there, I make sure to lightly flirt with a few of the other females; Brown Sugah seemed to be even more turned on by that.
OK, so we head back to the spot to drop things off, and I introduce her to my roomie Dave P the Haitian Superman, and the landlady happens to be there, too. Then I give Brown Sugah a guided tour of the three story brownstone that is Obsidian’s Base of Ops: “this is the foyer, this is the hallway, etc.” She got a big laugh outta that.
I introduced her to my cats, Nirvana and Bug, she like them and vice versa.
Then I took her to the Play Room – I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll briefly recap. Big Queen-sized bed, ornate hardwood headboard, and directly accross the big room, three closets in a Victorian motif, with beveled mirrors going accross all three doors. My, my, what a view…
OK, so we leave out to grab something to eat. I take her on a short bus ride to another of my old stomping grounds, and we hit one of my favorite coffee shops. When we sitdown, I have her sit *next to me*, NOT accross from me; she takes the inside seat. I do this for several reasons, one of them is so that I can have an unobstructed view of the front door (I always sit with my back to the wall in any eatery), and so that we can share more intimate space; sitting accross from one another reminds me too much of a Chess match. Too confrontational.
She calls me “Country” because of the way I talk (even though she thinks I have a thick “Philly” accent) and the way I eat; I suppose so; my Daddy’s from GA, so there you go. She thinks its hot. I think she’s hot.
We knock off breakfast, and the waitress, about 20 or so with a KILLER RACK serves us. Glad I had on my dark shades. *Whew*.
After that, we go on a brief tour through the old hood, and while I’m buying something at one of the stores, I finally get tired of her looking at me googly eyed and do the Mystery:
O: “Would you like to kiss me?”
BS: Not here, she says, everyone’s looking at us.
O: Well, I ask because you been looking at me all morning; you looked like you had something on your mind.
We leave the store and walk through one of Philly’s historic parks; while walking, I stop and say “come here”.
She steps to me, and I kiss her. She damn near passes out.
It’s time to head back home.
She arrived on the Iron Horse about 10AM; we get back to the lab around 2.30PM. Not quite five hours on the Seven Hour Clock.
By 3PM, we’re going at it something fierce. Officially five hours.
Not bad.
We moved the bed out of position, I think I must’ve broke the record for most Busting the Maximum Number of Nuts Allowable in a 24-Hour Period (I lost count around 7) and she came at least a dozen times, most of them Gspot. She squirted something *fierce* while in the Doggy position.
In between sessions she gave me backrubs, very good I might add. And she’s definitely a Believer. She called out for Jesus early and often. She also asked me if I was “sure I was 40”. When I told her yea, she fiercely disputed that – she’s convinced I’m 30. All those years of clean living have definitely paid off. Oh by the way, she’s significantly younger than me, though I won’t reveal her exact age.
We finally finished up around 9.30PM, where we limped back to the train station. We have plans to pickup where we left off next week.
I just got up a few hours ago.
All in all, it was a good weekend. And, the Seven Hour thing, which I had done in the past and just didn’t know it, is something I will definitely be putting to very good use, now that I’m consciously aware of it.
How was your weekend?
The Obsidian
LikeLike
“…that women are inherently amoral animals…”
*sigh*
that remindes me of your “one word: projection” thing.
And the video is disgusting.
besos, querido. have a nice week.
LikeLike
He doesn’t dismiss it. He just ignores it and repeats like a broken record. He’s a dull troll. We’d all be better off if everyone ignored him.
I’m in the camp that believes that women will always crave alphas, and whenever one comes into the picture, the pissant weak bonds between a beta male and a woman will fall apart like cheap construction. I’ve seen two long-term relationships tank once an alpha male came into the picture.
LikeLike
That’s true, but real PUAs are extremely rare. There are maybe 5 or so real ones on this blog, the rest are normal guys, or keyboard warriors. Most guys just don’t have the time, motivation, temperament, and apitude to become a PUA, just like most guys don’t become martial arts experts, even though there are tons of cheap karate schools every where.
I don’t think this blog is so popular because there is an army of PUAs in training. It’s because things get discussed here that are applicable not only to PUA business, but also to normal dating and LTRs.
“Ace” is timid in any adversarial situation. Say, a random guy started giving him shit, even a smallish guy at the office, where a fight is out of the question, he’d likely get red in the face, become visibly nervous and angry at the same time, and would not know what to say. Along the same vein, he doesn’t retort jabs or mild insults, but instead gets lost for words and just takes other guys’ shit.
With friends, though — or in any situation in which he is comfortable — he’s cool and funny. Like I mentioned, he hangs out with black guys who are smart and bona fide Alphas, and with cocky younger white guys, all of whom as far as I can tell genuinely like him.
With girls, he just simply doesn’t connect on a sexual level. He’s more of a clown in those situations. Once he gets over his initial shyness with a chick in some social setting, he’ll get on a roll with funny stories, for example. And he really does make people crack up. He will talk a girl’s ear off, and never bore her. But it’s on a completely sexless vibe.
One of his black Alpha friends kind of made it his personal mission to teach Ace some Game. He tells him things like “don’t be so nervous; keep a girls’ gaze, don’t look away like you’re scared of her!” or, “Never talk to a chick liek she’s one of the guys; never talk to her logic; talk to her pussy.” And so on. But as he tells me, he can’t get over his nervousness and timidiness.
I think that at near-fourty, he’s accepted his lot, as he puts it, and is content to travel a lot, gamble, and visit professionals. He does make decent money and isn’t stupid with it. He says that life is a trade-off and at least he has his freedom, which isn’t entirely a bad point.
I gotta say, though. He lost his virginity shortly after high school, and it was with one of the hottest little minxes I’ve ever met.
LikeLike
MQ:
“This is a great comment. But surely you realize that at its extreme a lifestyle based around “game” is a particularly toxic expression of just the consumption-based attitude you’re talking about. The endless search for more pussy is self-medication. The inability to take the risk of actually commiting to a single woman and therefore making yourself vulnerable prevents putting down roots. Women become interchangeable consumer goods instead of the basis for forming a family.”
I agree with you. Being a player is, in essence, just getting in on the consumption game. In a healthy society, the players would be considerably restrained. Not eliminated, but the all you can eat buffet would be closed.
I don’t really advocate being a player, except as a means to prosper in a decadent and unhealthy society. It’s sort of like handling your money: normally it’s wise to save and invest a good portion of what you make. But if you are living in Weimar Germany, it makes sense to spend it as soon as you can get – sooner if you can.
In other words, bad situations create bad incentives. The sexual market is the same way. Because I’m a big picture kind of guy, I feel compelled to call bullshit on this monstrosity of a culture in which we live, in the hopes that something better can replace it. And
I believe that it will be replaced, it’s only a matter of time. What’s going on now is unsustainable.
But I also live in the here and now, and have to deal with what works in the present. Being a player is not the only way to go, but in the present society, it makes sense.
LikeLike
. http://www.takeninhand.com/tour <— This website, which I came across ages ago, seems to try to emphasise dominance in a marriage. This is supposed to be seperate from the BDSM community, which are distinguished from this by their practices being purely sexual . It seems like the closest thing to what the earlier commenters were talking about.
LikeLike
@ serenity_now
> JAM Please reread, yet again. It a mathematical and logical fallacy. You are assuming a total population of 100 people with an exact patterning of sexual parters.
I made the scenario deliberately simple so that all confounding factors were removed. I deliberately used the simple model of your Berkeley friend, which you are presenting as incontrovertible proof, when I have shown that while it it is correct it is IRRELEVANT in describing the experience of the average man in the scenario.
>In short, you are relying on a logical fallacy. Do try again, won’t you?
Alright, I give up. Provide a mathematical proof of your assertion with numbers or symbols representing numbers.
Give me a mathematical falsification of what I have presented.
Betcha can’t. Use your phone-a-friend(s) if you have to.
Bonus points if you use no sophistry, metaphors, allusions, or references to the Wizard of Oz.
You are allowed moral outrage, but I’m just going to laugh at it.
LikeLike
One more thing:
> You are assuming a total population of 100 people with an exact patterning of sexual parters.
That is EXACTLY what your Berkeley prof is supposing, since he’s considering the closed population of attendees at a dance. Just replace ‘dance’ with ‘sexual partners’.
When you present a proof using numbers I will reply.
LikeLike
“Ace” is timid in any adversarial situation.
I must admit PA, your friend Ace sounds a little bit like me in terms of being nervous and timid, and not connecting sexually. At work, I’m usually okay, but once my members deviate and become testy, then I do become somewhat nervous and aggravated.
OTOH, I do bore women to death.
LikeLike
David, I agree, you guys do have a lot of similarities, especially the whole ‘eternal little boy’ thing. Even though his age of “near fourty” makes him sound old, the impression he makes is of an overgrown little kid.
He does, however, have that shifty, driven in no particular direction restlessness about him, while you seem fundamentally calm.
He has a gift for comedy, and fits the psychological profile of a professional comedian, if he could channel his edginess and a lifetime of humiliations-fueled anger into a productive direction, sort of like Howard Stern.
LikeLike
Though as Michael Blowhard once pointed out, you do the comedy / memorable internet personality thing quite well yourself.
LikeLike
Great, we have leftist slime like PA judging people. He and Joe T. and their ilk are your enemies, never forget that.
LikeLike
This is a first. I am a hardcore paleoconservative right winger with sympathies for nationalistic populism and religious traditionalism, and I get called a “left winger.”
LikeLike
So, I take this all to mean that everyone else had a good weekend, too, right?
Obsidian
LikeLike
Mark in Ark is having a great weekend, mainlining coke while jerking off to Ayn Rand.
LikeLike
A state-worshiper isn’t conservative. Bush was actually a liberal, even if he talked otherwise. Just look at this new New Deal/bailout he’s for.
Face it, Dems and Repubs are two sides of the same corrupt coin. They’ve all evil.
LikeLike
They’re, not They’ve.
LikeLike
Mark,
The world isn’t divided into “state worshippers” and libertarians.
There are those of us who would prefer to live under a libertarian government but recognize that there are underpinnings that are necessary for a libertarian government to exist.
Wishing for a libertarian government won’t make it so. It’s only possible with a very specific demographic. To put it simply there has to be a population where it pays a government better to leave them alone and take a small skim rather than simply stealing all you can while you can.
LikeLike
…and yes, repubs and dems are both evil.
LikeLike
Steve,
I know freedom is hated everywhere now, so I try to increase my own personal freedom as best I can, and enjoy watching all the suckers lose everything in real estate and stocks.
This depression is just getting started, even if there might be a stock market rise this spring. I’m hoping for mass starvation and poverty for all these statists.
LikeLike
The idea of someone jerking off to Ayn Rand is just lolcountry.
The woman had one of those faces you can’t look at without wanting immediately to look away at the ceiling or wall or something. Combine that with a smoking habit that makes me seem like chipper, the whole cape and beret get-up and fingernails-on-chalkboard personality and it’s kinda like jerking off to one of those insane women one sees on public transportation.
Crazy bag-lady libertarian bukkake, y’all.
LikeLike
re: Obsidian,
I had a fair weekend. I wore out a twenty something. That takes a bit of work. But, I have noticed that smokers, even fairly young ones, just can’t keep up. You have to let them rest.
So, ladies, if you learn anything from the Lotharios on this blog, you should learn not to smoke. The other advice, well, take it with a grain of salt.
But, she was a beaut.
LikeLike
“David Alexander
“Ace” is timid in any adversarial situation.
I must admit PA, your friend Ace sounds a little bit like me in terms of being nervous and timid, and not connecting sexually. At work, I’m usually okay, but once my members deviate and become testy, then I do become somewhat nervous and aggravated.
OTOH, I do bore women to death.”
Yeah, you bore me to death, too.
Sometimes, I wonder if all this post-feminism is really a form of eugenics; to keep the nice-guys w/ “weak” genes from breeding, and allowing the bad boys w/ “good” genes to spread their genes.
LikeLike
Roosh36 different dicks beating up the same pussy. Fucking disgusting.
If you are beating it up then you are not a good PUA. Beating it up won’t make women fall in love with you, they will fake and tell their girlfriends how rough and abusive you were. What makes it worse in your case is the face that you don’t lick. SMH, a man who doesn’t taste in 2009. The USA somehow got a Black president yet we still have men who have a no lick rule.
LikeLike
What makes it worse in your case is the face that you don’t lick. SMH, a man who doesn’t taste in 2009. The USA somehow got a Black president yet we still have men who have a no lick rule.
I can’t imagine why some men are like that. How absurd.
Of course, when it comes to licking, nothing concentrates the wonderful aromas and flavors like … well, you can figure that one out.
Peter
LikeLike
@serenity
Apparently Dr. Gale was not aware that the survey data he was being asked about was MEDIANS and not MEANS…LOL……..( bad reporter…. ) Medians and Means by themselves are pretty useless…… because they don’t say ANYTHING about the heaviness of the tails…
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/08/why-oh-why-ca-2.html
I just got from the article in general that it is possible that one or both of the genders is lying.
Either
A : Men are lying, women are not
B : Men are telling the truth, women are lying
C : Men are lying, women are lying
D : No one is lying succubi and incubus are afoot
LikeLike
Feel free to laugh, JAM. I’m rather tickled myself that you seem to think you have proven anything. Not to mention the fact that you appear to believe you are as qualified or as convincing as my “Berkeley professor friend” David Gale.
He answers your amusing claim, by the way. Any so-called ‘prostitute effect’ would be- noted theorist Professor Gale’s wording, here- “negligible.”
Anonymous internet blowhard vs. well-known mathematical theorist? Ooooh, tough call!
LikeLike
PA’s pals who are not successful with women are basically hosed, and they know it. Guaranteed, they WILL exact their own pound of flesh.
Volunteering, or other associations? How is that going to be any different than work where they were put in “friend zone?” Besides there are fewer women in most volunteer organizations (of ages 25-35) than women post 65. It’s been my direct experience in both Left (Habitat for Humanity, Sierra Club, Clinton/Dukakis campaigns) and Right (McCain/Bush campaigns) that volunteer organizations are dominated by women post 65. This is born out by the “Volunteering in America” study that has breakdowns nationally and city by city.
The same is true for Church attendance, etc. Dominated by older women well past romantic age. Young women are in bars, getting picked up by PUA, not anywhere else.
Second, the idea that married men (a distinct minority) would be able to fix these guys up is laughable. First, remember that women are looking for guys directly in bars, and are not amenable to being fixed up with a “loser” instead of a guy with around 50-100 partners (women prefer guys with lots and lots of female partners — it’s social proof).
The Married Guys wives are likely the only ones who are married and were interested in being married, US Census Bureau (look it up) shows that for the first time unmarried women outnumber married women. Among Whites, 41% in 2006 mothers were unmarried. The nuclear family is dead and among the casualties is female selection for: loyalty, decency, dependability, etc.
What women want, and have demonstrated in spades in rapidly increasing tempos since 1965 is the dangerous, edgy, bad-boy Pick Up Artist type guys. This is the dominant mode of female selection, and PA’s pals know it very well. They can’t really get married.
Best case: they put on a performance that is totally fake, not them, and women fall for it. Then they inevitably reveal themselves (as Mystery, Strauss, and others always do) and women dump them for real bad boys.
Women sleep with jerks because they like Jerks. So they ought to expect pretty much all men, in increasing numbers over time, to act like jerks and treat them poorly. That’s what is getting rewarded. So they will get more of them. The fantasy of guys like David Alexander, the beta “happy” to be the pretend non-boyfriend, is laughable. DA may or may not be real, but the reality is guys trending towards the British model of “Yob” … i.e. being the most thug-like jerk possible. It’s a way to “win” and easy. Any man can embrace violence, women really have no idea.
It scares the hell out of me when I consider it.
A guy who has not had (since age 15 or so) success with women is pretty much destined to be an angry and frustrated chump. This is a huge shift.
LikeLike
Serenity Now:
Go and read this link, as posted earlier by epiclolz
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/08/why-oh-why-ca-2.html
An economics professor at Berkeley that works in the same building states that the article made your “Berkeley Professor Friend Gale” look like an idiot since the reporter didn’t give professor Gale the correct information since she didn’t know the difference between median and mean.
He says: “Ouch. Our own David Gale from the tenth floor is made to look ridiculous by Gina Kolata — you see, she didn’t tell him that the survey didn’t ask about means–about averages–but about medians. Which means that she doesn’t know the difference between means and medians. Which is a very bad thing for a science reporter.”
Professor Gale is correct when he states that in a closed population, the mean number cannot be different.
The median can certainly be different.
The telling quote as to why the reporter fucked up is here: “I blame it on the common knowledge and use of Gaussian distributions where they are effectively synonymous. However, it takes only the most cursory thought to realize sex partner distributions cannot be gaussian and therefore that medians and averages will differ. ”
You can call everyone on this blog like Roissy and Jam idiots, but believe me, you’re the one that looks like the idiot here, since you believed what was reported in the New York Times as gospel, without analyzing or comprehending the underlying mathematical facts enough to know that the reporter fucked up.
LikeLike
The same is true for Church attendance, etc. Dominated by older women well past romantic age.
Depends which churches. The old mainline Protestant churches (Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Congregationalist, Unitarian etc.) and the liberal Catholic parishes are indeed absolute death for meeting women. The best places to meet churchy women are Evangelical megachurches near a university or a downtown. There will usually be one in each metropolitan area known for having a critical mass of younger people. Once you find that place, it is like hitting the motherlode.
LikeLike
Serrenity/JAM/etc…
I think it is obvious that:
1. If you cast out the hyper-slut outliers, men will tend to have more partners than women
2. Due to “slut stigma” reasons: In surveys men will tend to exaggerate. Women will tend to under-report.
So you’re all wrong. I am right. Now where’s my prize?
LikeLike
“Angelo Seppi”
Sometimes, I wonder if all this post-feminism is really a form of eugenics; to keep the nice-guys w/ “weak” genes from breeding, and allowing the bad boys w/ “good” genes to spread their genes.
If it is, everything we built will be destroyed. Bad boys do not make for stable nor safe societies. We may end up losing everything we gained over the last 500 years.
Take computers for instance:
Almost every guy who designs, programs, and fixes computers are beta boys. If the computer geeks fail to pass on their genes who will build the computers of the future?
LikeLike
Grim,
I don’t know if I’m an “alpha”, a bad boy, or a wussy. But I do know that I’ve developed a lot of electronics and computer hardware and I have already met my quota of progeny.
Should I go for more to populate the earth with more like me? I’d have to think about that.
LikeLike
au contraire.
a 7 drawing sensuously on her cigarette, and then holding it to the side with that deliciously submissive limp-wristed pose and puckering her lipsticked sips to blow out the toxins, instantly elevates herself to the status of a fuckworthy 8.5.
“classy bad girls” attract the smoothest boys, and they know it. nothing wrong with another irresistible attractant.
LikeLike
holy shit! wait!
you mean that … removing the highest data points in a set … (gasp) lowers its average?
no way!
that’s so cool!
LikeLike
heh.
heh.
ahahaHAHAHAhahaha!
ha!
ooh.
hee hee.
chic, women (with the possible exception of psychotic control freaks) don’t appreciate a pussyfooting milquetoast in the bedroom any more than they do in the real world.
in fact, the preference is almost certainly magnified, because the bedroom is, of course, where the true nature of women’s preferences, fantasies, and desires can be manifested.
i can of course get into a good lick, provided that the girl smells good**, her gross national product is 0 (sorry peter), and there’s a healthy dose of spitting and clit-slapping up in the mix. and no, chic, not so hard that it actually hurts. just love-taps.
LikeLike
Well, as we actually already covered the inherent limitations of self-reporting studies, JerrDogg, no prize for you.
You’re right, Dynamo Kiev, the reporter was misleading. And no, I don’t feel or look like an idiot. If anything, I’m in great company: Dr. Gale himself was misled.
What is so utterly fantastic is that this in no way alters his most important statement on the subject: “Surveys and studies to the contrary notwithstanding, the conclusion that men have substantially more sex partners than women is not and cannot be true for purely logical reasons.” ..A statement which quite clearly does not hinge on whether or not the discussion is of medians or means. Perhaps you should have read the article a bit more carefully, no?
Yes, you are all idiots. For relying on a statistic (oh no, already shaky here) derived from a self-reporting study on sexual partners (did you feel that? That was all of your credibility, flying out the window). And we haven’t even touched on sampling issues yet.
Your argument absolutely depends on there being some semblance of accuracy to the median of “three.” There is none. Cheers!
LikeLike
@serenity now
Let me offer a concrete example with a significantly skewed distribution to clarify why your point is at best pedantic but meaningless to the larger point made by many on this blog. [NOTE: I’m not claiming the following distribution accurately models reality, but it qualitatively captures the kind of alleged skewing in favor of women].
Consider who is bonking whom over a one month interval in a population of ten guys and ten girls.
Seven of the guys are betas (b1 thru b7) and three of the guys are alphas (a1 thru a3).
Two of the girls are good girls (g1 & g2) and eight of the girls are sluts (s1 thru s8).
The next table describes which girl sleeps with which guy(s).
– the first line means girl g1 banged beta b1 five times
– the two nice girls each banged one beta five times
– each of the eight sluts banged all three alphas
– alpha1 bangs each slut an increasing number of times as her slut number increases (to help create some skewing that will make the some medians different than the means)
– the other two alphas bang each slut ten times
g1 b1*5
g2 b2*5
s1 a1*5 + a2*10 + a3*10
s2 a1*5 + a2*10 + a3*10
s3 a1*5 + a2*10 + a3*10
s4 a1*15 + a2*10 + a3*10
s5 a1*40 + a2*10 + a3*10
s6 a1*50 + a2*10 + a3*10
s7 a1*55 + a2*10 + a3*10
s8 a1*55 + a2*10 + a3*10
total alpha1 bangs: 5 + 5 + 5 + 15 + 40 + 50 + 55 + 55 = 230
This table shows how each male received the favors of the ladies (or not). You can see that the betas didn’t do too well. only two betas got anything at all (they each got five bangs). FIVE of the betas got NOTHING AT ALL. On the other hand out of 400 total bangs, the three alphas got 390 of them!
The various statistical means and medians are computed after the table.
dudes
#bangs
#partners
——————–
b1 5 1
b2 5 1
b3 0 0
b4 0 0
b5 0 0
b6 0 0
b7 0 0
a1 230 8
a2 80 8
a3 80 8
beta bang average: (5+5)/7 = 10/7 = 1.4286
alpha bang average: (230 + 80 + 80)/3 = 390/3 = 130
beta partner average: (1+1)/7 = 2/7 = 0.2857
alpha partner average: (8*3)/3 = 8
beta bang median: 0
alpha bang median: 80
beta partner median: 0
alpha partner median: 8
overall male bang average: (10+390)/10 = 400/10 = 40
overall male bang median: 2.5
overall male partner average: (2*1+8*3)/10 = 26/10 = 2.6
overall male partner median: 0.5
total male bangs = 5*2 + (230 + 80 + 80) = 10 + 390 = 400
Now let’s see how the chicks made out. It looks like ALL the chicks got banged, in fact every slut got a pretty good number of bangs.
I’ll pick the discussion up below after all the data.
chicks
#bangs
#partners
——————–
g1 5 1
g2 5 1
s1 25 3
s2 25 3
s3 25 3
s4 35 3
s5 60 3
s6 70 3
s7 75 3
s8 75 3
total good girl bangs: 5 + 5 = 10
total slut bangs: 25 + 25 + 25 + 35 + 60 + 70 + 75 + 75 = 390
good girl bang average: 10/2 = 5
good girl bang median: 5
good girl partner average: 1
good girl partner median: 1
slut bang average: 390/8 = 48.75
slut bang median: 47.5 [SEE CALCULATION BELOW]
slut partner average: 3
slut partner median: 3
overall female bang average: (10 + 390)/10 = 400/10 = 40
overall female bang median: 30 [from avg of 25 & 35]
overall female partner average: (2 * 8*3)/10 = 26/10 = 2.6
overall female partner median: 3
total female bangs = total good girl bangs + total slut bangs = 10 + 390 = 400
EXAMPLE MEDIAN CALCULATION (for slut median bang)
———————————————————–
If there are an odd number of items the median is the middle value
If there are an even number of items you use the average of the two middle values.
For the sluts there are eight values and the middle two are 35 and 60
25, 25, 25, 35, 60, 70, 75, 75
So the median is: (35 + 60)/2 = 95/2 = 47.5
———————————————————–
OK. Because the numbers of men and women are the same, the AVERAGE number of partners (NOT the median) comes out the same (unlike China where they’ve aborted so many females there is a large difference between the number of men and women).
But relying on the AVERAGE is extremely deceptive!
50% of the men got NOTHING!
20% of the men got a little bit of action, while the three alphas dominated NEARLY ALL the action (about 98%)
But for the women it’s not so unfair. ALL the women got some action and in fact most of them (the sluts) got a lot of action. It’s just that they spread it among three of the men instead of the entire group of ten.
LikeLike
Whiskey wrote: Women in general if they are seen by men in general as worthy of commitment will GET commitment.
Man, that, and this thread hit close to home. My name is RF and I’m a recovering beta. Take my anecdotal evidence…
At the very height of my betatude, I was dating a girl. Coming into the relationship, before she’d seen much of my personality, my status was much higher than hers, as she didn’t even grow up middle class. But the supplicating beta in me eroded the initial attraction that caught her off guard and had her giddy when I first asked her out.
I always had to call her, she never called me. I made all sorts of awful mistakes like buying her gifts. Brought her OJ and chicken soup when she had the flu once. Got scolded and was told she didn’t want company as her place was a mess.
Predictably, she dumped me. And I don’t blame her. I must have bored the everliving shit out of her. She went on vacation and broke off all contact with me (not even a break-up e-mail).
A couple years go by and we cross paths again. She is now apologizing for the way she treated me and has been drunk texting me late on prime weekend nights. Guess what’s changed?
She got knocked up by a married man who isn’t leaving his wife. I’ve since finished up my degree and am now playing bass in a band again (no lie, which cracks me up reading the other replies under this post) now that I’ve got more free time since finishing school. Have also started dressing a lot better (I even own pocketsquares now).
Thank God for the work people like Roissy and Whiskey have been putting in on t3h internets. I wonder if I would have returned her texts otherwise.
It’s my hope that even clingy beta servitude driven by massive self doubt will have its conditions—primarily that we’ll all be great providers for our own kids, but we’re not looking after bastards.
Getting back to Whiskey’s point, this girl even kept her shape after having her first child. The only thing that’s different is that she has ruined her worth in the eyes of at least this beta provider. I know I would have been content to settle down and start a family with this girl a few years back.
I’d still like to settle down with one woman, raise a family and take care of each other through old age. The difference is, I’m much more aware of how difficult finding a woman like that is going to be (massive hat tip to Roissy, Whiskey et all).
Whiskey’s stats on the age breakdown of churchgoing women in America depressed me. I figured a good religious gal offered more hope than most. I don’t find most Asian women attractive. Guess I’m going to have to start looking at Eastern Europe.
LikeLike
Is this friend of yours timid in general or only in confrontations with others?
“Ace” is timid in any adversarial situation. Say, a random guy started giving him shit, even a smallish guy at the office, where a fight is out of the question, he’d likely get red in the face, become visibly nervous and angry at the same time, and would not know what to say. Along the same vein, he doesn’t retort jabs or mild insults, but instead gets lost for words and just takes other guys’ shit.
What I was getting at was whether he felt equally helpless at solving problems that don’t involve confrontations with other people. You wrote he made good money, from which I surmise he can solve non-people-related problems confidently.
I think that at near-fourty, he’s accepted his lot, as he puts it, and is content to travel a lot, gamble, and visit professionals. He does make decent money and isn’t stupid with it. He says that life is a trade-off and at least he has his freedom, which isn’t entirely a bad point.
Ace is used to sex with good looking pros. I doubt he would welcome the prospect of being bound to a very ugly woman. If he managed to get married or in an LTR with a decent looking woman, there is a good chance he would eventually get bulldozed by her.
I gotta say, though. He lost his virginity shortly after high school, and it was with one of the hottest little minxes I’ve ever met.
How the hell did that happen?
LikeLike
Of course, when it comes to licking, nothing concentrates the wonderful aromas and flavors like … well, you can figure that one out.
Peter
Try surstromming. I bet you’ll love it.
LikeLike
Take computers for instance:
Almost every guy who designs, programs, and fixes computers are beta boys. If the computer geeks fail to pass on their genes who will build the computers of the future?
Hopefully the computers themselves and/or augmented humans. I don’t believe in a civilizational meltdown within the next 20 to 40 years.
LikeLike
For the deluded retard (and any of his ilk) who think that women somehow “ask” to get raped:
You can debate all you like about the relative merits of “sluts”, hot girls, cute girls, etc., but rape is NEVER okay, under ANY circumstances; if you think otherwise, you’re a misogynistic scumbag.
Feel free to resume your normal douchebaggery.
LikeLike
While Whiskey makes very good points, he does exaggerate. Women do not prefer men with 50-100 partners as far as I know, more like 10-20. Anyway you can always lie and act like you’ve been with more.
The white illegitimacy rate is not 41%, it’s about 30%. Still bad, and definitely rising. It was 5% 50 years ago.
But the basic premise is that there are very few attractive women suitable for long-term relationships, especially in American major metropolitan areas like NYC and DC. There is no denying this.
LikeLike
What is NAM an acronym for?
LikeLike
Speaking of rape, nobody is going to care about women being raped if the feminist/soft polygamy situation continues. Men are against rape because they want women’s honor protected for her father or future husband’s sake. With mostly amoral, shallow promiscuous sluts nowadays, no men will care about a woman claiming rape, because she won’t be wife material anyway. And yes, deep down, many men know that not only do many women claim rape after consensual encounters, but that many women put themselves in the dangerous positions in the first place.
As far as the omegas and betas getting angry, I hope they marshal that anger into some visible action, so the media will start to pay attention to this situation.
LikeLike
@sane dudes
Thank you for your supporting examples.
@innumerate bitches
It would be cool if you aligned the tires on your cars next time. I want to read in the New York Times about some fashionistas crashing into Whole Foods at a red light.
LikeLike
You wrote he made good money, from which I surmise he can solve non-people-related problems confidently.
Yes, that’s true.
How the hell did that happen?
He tends to hang out with bassasses. I think his personablility and class-clownishness is why they like him. Like I mentioned, as a guy he’s fun as hell to do stuff with.
Anyway, through those guys, who were a kind of rednecky crew at time, he met a slightly younger and hot, minxy, wild-child sort of girl (school dropout, she had an arrest record and did drugs) who was I believe trying to piss of some some on-and-off-again boyfriend, and had sex with him a couple of times.
LikeLike
Ace is used to sex with good looking pros. I doubt he would welcome the prospect of being bound to a very ugly woman.
Very true. He’s shown me photos from some of his ‘travels’ and on a purely erotic level, a normal girl wouldn’t do a whole lot for him.
However —
He doesn’t just hang out with the wilder crowd. His core group of friends is myself and my other friends, and all of us are more conventional in our lives. Married, kids, etc.
When he sees guys who have normal lives, who have good-looking girls who care about them, he does admit that he would like to have that too. (We’re all friends since junior high and as a group regularly go out for guys-only dinner, get drunk, talk about stuff)
I think that his completely un-met emotional needs would trump his sexual appetites, if he had a chance to have a normal girlfriend or wife.
He in fact, still, even now, at near-fourty, finds ways to attract the attentions of girls similar to his first lay – much hot, psychologically-screwed-up girls in their early twenties, who find ways to use him, and he falls in love with them like an idiot.
I believe that he’s the only o m e g a male in human history to have dated a stripper. He got a few kisses from her, she’d change in front of him, etc., but that’s all he’d get from her.
If he managed to get married or in an LTR with a decent looking woman, there is a good chance he would eventually get bulldozed by her.
That’s probably true.
LikeLike
Mr. B
NAM== “non-asian minorities” i.e blacks and hispanics, mostly.
Serenity Now
What did you prove, BTW? That in the closed market of heterossxual sex the number of men who took part in one equals the number of women who also took part? wow, who could have thought it!!!!!!
LikeLike
PA:
What’s up with the much-hot psychologically screwed-up girl and older odd guy thing?
I have the same problem myself, though not as bad as your friend, as I don’t take well to being toyed with or having my time wasted. I used to suspect that it was due to my hobbies, but the dynamic continued even after I stopped writing and acting in the local art film scene. I used to joke that in 20 years I would be Steve Buscemi’s character from Ghostworld, but, hell, now I’m seriously starting to wonder.
Ah, well. Headcases are passionate at least. I like that. Better than the emotionally indulgent self-satisfaction and mindless consumer whoring of most Oprah-fed women.
LikeLike
@ the whole survey business
I don’t even want to know the standard error of the sample size is….. also…. I would bet that for this sort of thing… we have bimodal distributions….. so any standard mean-variance analysis would have to be taken with a grain of salt. It’s too bad we don’t have the actual data set. Although, it only takes 1 single situation where a general statement is wrong, to prove it wrong generally. But either way, from talking to most women I know, they tend to only count particular types of intercourse as partners while they don’t count oral/etc as sex. So it is ‘possible’ that you would hear this sort of break down from a girl. She had sex with 3 guys, but she had oral sex with 36 dudes.. etc… (Think Clerks) Which ‘may’ results in a total # of sex partners of 3….
It would be funny and informative if the survey’s had segmented data between different types of sex and the total. Perhaps it would uncover different standards of what women and men consider sex when they are answering a question about # partners.
LikeLike
>What’s up with the much-hot psychologically screwed-up girl >and older odd guy thing?
Watch out for the psychos. I remember seeing this 50 year old guy and this 20 year old psycho chick fighting in a parking lot. I broke up the fight even though the guy looked like a Russian mobster and I was a little worried that he was packing heat. At first I assumed it was the guy busting on the girl and I was going to call the cops but after talking to them I found out that she was nuts. Bewildered, I left them.
1 month later I was reading the paper and there was a mug shot of her with a headline of how she knifed that guy to death over a period of an hour while the neighbors could hear him screaming. They didn’t call the cops right away because they figured a chick couldn’t hurt a guy.
Point is, they’re dangerous and everyone will assume it’s the guy’s fault. There’s something nutty about a hot young chick dating a sugar daddy anyway.
LikeLike
What’s up with the much-hot psychologically screwed-up girl and older odd guy thing?
Who knows?
Ace’s wild-child first lay didn’t exactly date ‘older’ men, as we were all not too long out of high school and she was maybe a year younger than us.
But she’d do stuff like flash me her tits, or rub me under the table (and probably another dude with her other hand) even though I did not in any way date her, or even flirt with her. Good times.
But yeah, the younger girls he attracts now as a guy in his late-30s fit your observation. Maybe there is an element of them using sex (or just teasing) as a way of getting stuff from daddy-figure or perceived-sucka type guys. A few years ago, my friend co-signed a used car purchase for one such girl! Miraculously, she paid the whole loan off herself.
LikeLike
@RF Interference, Serenety now et.al.
Yes, the higher male median means that we have a rightwardly skewed distribution with a majority of the spoils going to alpha males and stronger betas. This leaves a whole slew of men out of the dating world.
I believe that Game can help men on the margins, but Game can’t solve the problem for the male sex as a whole. For this to happen, lesser betas (who Game is hopeful to help the most) must either hone in on alphas turf (creating competition and boosting the “price” for women) or women’s number of partners increases (creating a new group of denigrated sluts).
To me this shows that Game is only a marginal movement and not an across-the-board dynamic shift in male/female dating relations. It can definitely help some men boost confidence and make them happier, but someone will always be left in the dark.
I’m trying to develop this theory in my head and on my own blog actually, so any feedback, even shit-talking, is appreciated.
LikeLike
I’m a new reader here, and I must say, this is one addictive blog. Wich is in a way weird, since I tend to dislike most of your opinions (I’m a woman, so it comes naturally…) Not that I think you are always wrong, it’s more way you say things, and how you treat some of the commentors here. It often sounds like only the young and beautifull are worthy of respect and others can be treated badly (not that you have ever said so directly).
Anyway, you say women are amoral animals. I agree, in a way. But I think it is hypocritical to say that you can’t treat them (us) as equals. What makes you think men are any less amoral or animals?
LikeLike
Maybe there is an element of them using sex (or just teasing) as a way of getting stuff from daddy-figure or perceived-sucka type guys.
If you’re not in a long-term married relationship with one of those women, it doesn’t seem that bad especially if you’re getting laid, and I suspect that for some betas, it fills a need to be “useful” to somebody. It’s an interesting exchange of sex and resources with a small degree of emotional satisfaction for both sides. Of course, the downside is that she may become pregnant with your kid, and your fun relationship with the hot, screwed up girl who may already have a kid becomes a nightmare where your optional support becomes mandatory, and you’re forced to experience the full brunt of her craziness.
LikeLike
it doesn’t seem that bad especially if you’re getting laid,
There’s the rub. The dude doesn’t get laid by these girls.
And yeah, just hanging out with them might be all right, but there is a wierd and predatory psychological dynamic on the part of those girls at play, wherein wherein he thinks (against his better judgment) that he’ll get somewhere with them, but he never does.
LikeLike
Yeah, it’s called being an attention whore.
http://alphadominance.com/?p=510
LikeLike
anelma:
It often sounds like only the young and beautifull are worthy of respect and others can be treated badly
That’s called “life.”
It’s better to look good than to be good.
The old and unattractive console themselves with Xboxes and cat farming.
Anyway, you say women are amoral animals. I agree, in a way. But I think it is hypocritical to say that you can’t treat them (us) as equals. What makes you think men are any less amoral or animals?
They may not necessarily be less amoral, but they certainly don’t lie about it as much while shrouding themselves in veils of virtue.
The notion that “men are dogs” is so commonplace and trite that even men themselves joke about it. We laugh at ourselves. *Our* animal natures have been the brunt of jokes for ages.
But how often do you see women laughing about how shamelessly they sportfuck alphas in their youth before trapping a beta in a sexless marriage?
LikeLike
One reason why women don’t joke and laugh about their sex affairs might be their wish to avoid the stigma. If having sex freely truly were something you don’t need to be ashamed of (as it is for men) maybe women wouldn’t feel the need for false coyness.
LikeLike
But yeah, the younger girls he attracts now as a guy in his late-30s fit your observation. Maybe there is an element of them using sex (or just teasing) as a way of getting stuff from daddy-figure or perceived-sucka type guys.
I’m almost certain these girls haven’t actually touched his genitals.
A few years ago, my friend co-signed a used car purchase for one such girl! Miraculously, she paid the whole loan off herself.
Oh my god! A man who can’t say no. He has no chance whatsoever getting a family of his own at least not unless he’s willing to lower his standards to absolute rock bottom level.
Was your friend bullied in high school? Or did he already hang out with enough alpha friends to keep the bullies away?
LikeLike
@Tupac
When guys talk about how “women” behave badly, I often wonder if it’s the same as when women talk about how “men” behave badly. If their sample is bad people then they’re gauging everyone else by that.
As far as it being better to look good than to be good, I suppose that depends on what one is after.
Being close to the end of my “ugly” phase, I notice that people treat me differently, but I can’t say better. I have to work harder to be taken seriously, and that I don’t like.
I’m also kind of losing some of my guy friends. I’m not so much losing them, but they’re becoming more sexually interested, which I don’t want.
I don’t know what I’m going to do in summer when I can’t layer anymore. 😦
LikeLike
I’m almost certain these girls haven’t actually touched his genitals.
You are correct sir.
Was your friend bullied in high school?
Big time.
Or did he already hang out with enough alpha friends to keep the bullies away?
My other friends and I weren’t alpha at school but you could say we were medium to high-beta (dated girls, played sports, were friendly with the cool crowd) But he wasn’t in all of our classes, so we couldn’t really always protect him as “our o m e g a.”
Shamefully, while in high school we gave him plenty of teasin’ of our own (boys will be boys) but it never approached the cruelty levels that he got from other guys, especially in younger grades like 7th and 8th grade.
He didn’t really start hanging out with rednecky alphas until after high school, and alpha black guys until his late 20s or early 30s.
LikeLike
Being close to the end of my “ugly” phase, I notice that people treat me differently, but I can’t say better. I have to work harder to be taken seriously, and that I don’t like.
Losing a lot of weight, Nicole?
LikeLike
To clarify, he was for the most part left alone in high school, althuogh there’d always be some random bully here and there, but it was typically just some lone loser, no one of any standing at school.
But in 7th and 8th grade, he was picked on savagely by pretty much everyone.
LikeLike
“I have to work harder to be taken seriously, and that I don’t like.”
It’s so humorous being on the male end of this equation because aging women who are losing their appeal finally get a taste of what most men have to deal with for most of their young lives. As our status improves we start getting to have our way with the young gals, meanwhile women our age come to the difficult realization that people treated them deferentially not because they were such amazing examples of humanity but were in fact only solicitous because they wanted to get in their pants. The disillusionment is palpable and I take a derisive glee in it.
http://alphadominance.com/
LikeLike
****
Jennifer Aniston thought being famous and pretty would insulate her from any risk of a Brad Pitt cheating on her. She would have been better advised to marry early, some faithful “beta” type guy who would have worshipped the ground she walked on.
****
I think sometimes things aren’t really that simple.
January-2005:Seperates from Jennifer
August-September-2005:Likely time of conception of Pitt’s kid
January 11, 2006:Jolie confirmed to People magazine that she was pregnant with Pitt’s child
May 27, 2006:Jolie gives birth
I guess Jennifer should have honored Brad’s desire for children. Oh well.
Whatever else you say about Jolie, crazy or not, she thinks things through and plays her cards well. That said I think the ‘super-built’ physique Brad created for ‘Troy’ had a lot to do with her decision. If only the ‘Helen’ in the movie had been actually beautiful.
LikeLike
kthulah:
I’m also kind of losing some of my guy friends. I’m not so much losing them, but they’re becoming more sexually interested, which I don’t want.
“Don’t want”? Why not? Assuming you take pride in yourself and those close to you, I would guess those guys possess some admirable qualities. If they are friendships of any length I would also assume you have developed a nice flow of rapport among yourselves. You enjoy a degree of comfort with them as well as shared history together.
So I am a bit mystified why, after losing weight and winning their affections, you are dissapointed. Hmmmm. Now what could it be? What might be missing here? Hmmmmm…
LikeLike
Markku, I’ve lost alot. Still have a ways to go, but it’s a bit faster since I actually decided how I want to look. Power of visualization I guess.
I’m still old and getting older though. 😉
LikeLike
Alpha, the reason I’m having to work harder at being taken seriously is because since there is less belly to obscure it, guys are talking to my breasts or getting “lost in my eyes”.
When I was almost 80 lbs heavier, when I went to sell something, the focus was the product, not what that fabulous perfume I’m wearing is.
I also made women feel more comfortable…not that I had so many female friends before, but now I actually get that nose flick-chest out-hold boyfriend tighter gesture now, even though I’m still actually fat, just less fat than I was.
Tupac, the problem is that an added sexual dimension changes things. I know my friends, and I see how they treat some of our other of our female friends. There’s always this underlying wish that the girls would give it up. Once, one did, and now she’s the new Satan, and can’t be around us when we’re hanging out of the one she did it with is there. He can’t be normal around her.
Now, I love these guys as *friends*. I don’t mean emotional tampon friends. I mean take a bullet for them friends. I don’t want to be the new Satan.
How would you suggest a woman navigate this sort of thing?
…and if (and it’s a big if) a woman promotes a once platonic friend to a lover, would that not increase her slut factor since it would be low maintenance sexual attention?
LikeLike
Depends which churches. The old mainline Protestant churches (Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Congregationalist, Unitarian etc.) and the liberal Catholic parishes are indeed absolute death for meeting women. The best places to meet churchy women are Evangelical megachurches near a university or a downtown. There will usually be one in each metropolitan area known for having a critical mass of younger people. Once you find that place, it is like hitting the motherlode.
This needs some elaboration.
First, because of the no-sex-without-marriage rule, most good-looking evangelical girls who actually want to get married emerge from college already engaged. Chances are, if you walk into an evangelical church, the majority of the cute twenty-something girls there will already be married.
Second, there are the ones who are still single. For anyone considering this route, don’t think that you can still be a beta “nice guy,” or even, God forbid, an omega, and attract a cute girl just because she appears to have conservative religious beliefs. You still have to have your game on. I made this mistake–over the past few years, I let friendships tail off, stopped pursuing my hobbies, became a total wallflower, basically lost all inner game, because I thought such a girl would go for me simply for being a provider and a Nice Guy. I’m good-looking enough; I thought all I’d have to do is introduce myself as a medical student (great future provider, right?) and these evangelical girls would be all over me. It doesn’t work that way.
Case in point: at one time last year I took an interest in this one cute girl in a church group. She’s kind of quiet and shy and has a sweet temperament, and I’d rate her looks as a 7. By a strictly rational view, she SHOULD be interested in me: she didn’t go to college and still lives with her parents working for the family business, so she doesn’t have many prospects for a future on her own. What could be better for her, from a pragmatic standpoint, than to marry a doctor? But she was totally enamored of this other guy in the group who was an alpha: very sociable, always the center of attention without trying to be, energetic, good dancer, etc. I’d try to talk to her and get one-word responses coming from an expressionless face; meanwhile, you could just see her light up whenever this alpha entered the room. She’d be animated and grinning ear-to-ear when she talked to him. Now, they didn’t end up together. He wasn’t interested. But that in no way made her willing to fall back on me.
(Yeah, I had one-itis and was being a classic AFC, but don’t be too hard on me; I didn’t know about game or the seduction community yet.)
The point is, it would be a mistake to think that just because these girls believe that Jesus was the son of God and that it’s immoral to have sex without being married, they must fit into the mold we’ve been describing of the days of yore when women truly did fall in love with beta providers. These women are not products of that world and that culture, where women we’re dependent on men; they’re products of our modern culture. The above girl excepted, join the modern workforce and support themselves with jobs which once were the exclusive domain of men, living in apartments alone or with roommates, just like secular girls do. They may not believe in non-marital sex, but that doesn’t mean betas make their heart skip a beat. Even thought they say they want marriage and family and thus are ultimately looking for a provider, they won’t marry you unless they’re attracted to you, and they won’t be attracted to you unless you display alpha characteristics.
LikeLike
Sorry, the last paragraph should read “The above girl excepted, today’s evangelical girls join the modern workforce…”
LikeLike
alphadom,
My thoughts exactly. On average, women just don’t age very well compared to men.
I can’t wait to look in the mirror, I get better looking each day. Believe it or not, I was talking to a facial plastic surgeon and he told me that if you project typical male facial aging on my face I will get better looking (his words “approach the female-preferred male aesthetic facial ideal”) over time. I think he’s right, I used to look like a wussy dork.
Whenever I’m hanging around 20-35 year old women now, I can tell that almost all of them like me a lot and nearly all the single ones have that “ask me out” look in their eyes. Their pupils actually dilate. This was not the case when I was 21. I really had to work for it then. This slowly started changing as I got older. I’m sure my personality changed to come off as more assertive as well but I think it is 80% looks improvement as I’m not even trying anymore.
I say this not to brag (there are certainly better looking dudes out there) but it’s rare for a woman to age well. And looks are all that a lot of women have.
I hear a lot of you guys are worried about divorce unfairness and cuckoldry and junk. Just marry a chick that makes about as much money if not more than you. That way she can’t take much from you in the divorce. So go for both looks and brains. About 1/2 the women I’ve dated were engineers; they make pretty good girlfriends but the good looking ones are hard to snag because they work with 90% men so you have to be a quality guy to get them. If you’re disciplined enough to never f**k bimbos, you’ll soon learn to work the smart good-looking ones well enough to beat the odds. They turn into good wives too but their not for the paranoid jealous types; they get hit on all the time at work since they work with mostly rich successful men. Despite this, I have yet to see a case where there’s a kid from one of these that doesn’t look like the husband.
LikeLike
serenity_now,
I still think I should get a prize.
I want to know what makes you melt. Does arguing turn you on? If so, you should consider dating men you really disagree with instead of some “yes dear! wussy”. I have to admit that sometimes a little arguing works for me but it really seems to work well on certain women even more. Usually after about an hour of arguing, the other reconciliation starts because the rat brain attraction takes over.
You’re obviously one of those women who argues about intellectual stuff like semantics for hours. I know the type since I’m into nerds. You’re probably kind of smart, which is cool, but that doesn’t mean you are right. You can’t debate math with words. What a chore women like you are. Are you sure you’re worth it? If not you should be more docile.
LikeLike
First, because of the no-sex-without-marriage rule, most good-looking evangelical girls who actually want to get married emerge from college already engaged. Chances are, if you walk into an evangelical church, the majority of the cute twenty-something girls there will already be married.
Hence the importance of identifying the church in your area:
a. where the university students go; and/or
b. which is known for where singles meet up.
Going to an evangelical church, even a large evangelical church, in the burbs or, even worse, out in the sticks can be an extremely frustrating experience for 25+ singles.
They may not believe in non-marital sex, but that doesn’t mean betas make their heart skip a beat. Even thought they say they want marriage and family and thus are ultimately looking for a provider, they won’t marry you unless they’re attracted to you, and they won’t be attracted to you unless you display alpha characteristics.
Oh so true. You need at least some alpha characteristics to attract pretty girls anywhere. Church girls may not sleep around, but they have the same attraction switches as any other girls.
However,:
a. Most of the girls haven’t been exposed too much, if at all, to the bars, so they don’t have an inflated sense of their attractiveness.
b. They aren’t all taking turns sleeping with the alphas, so eventually if they want to mate with someone most of them are going to have to settle down with a beta of some kind.
c. Most church guys have zero game, so it doesn’t take a whole lot to stand out.*
*There have always been a few naturals, often black guys, at the churches I have attended, but most are betas all the way.
Keep in mind that I am from Canada, so the line between the religious and the non-religious is much clearer here than in the U.S.
LikeLike
Jerrdogg
“On average, women just don’t age very well compared to men.”
reminds me of the expression “Women age like milk, men age like wine.
LikeLike
JerrDogg: Your idiocy is almost kind of cute. Such a shame as you are so clearly straight ..and a sexist asshole.
Yes, I do enjoy the occasional debate with my boyfriend. Of course, you’d have to eliminate the petty name-calling and move the language comprehension level up a few notches to approximate the experience.
I am always hesitant to out myself in debates such as this. I am fully aware that you’ll try to negate any previous arguments I’ve made by claiming that I am unfamiliar with the sexual politics of hetero couplings. Feel absolutely free to make that ridiculous (and easily countered) claim.
Let’s pretend for just a moment that these medians roissy continues to rely on bear any resemblance to reality. I don’t mean to blow your tiny minds here, but, did you ever consider that these bogus medians were perhaps skewed by any gays in the sample? The entire culture promotes a freewheeling attitude towards sexual encounters (yes, still) and most relationships are open to threesomes (or foursomes or…). I’m a bit shocked that such an intellectual group hadn’t yet considered the possibility.
LikeLike
Markku, I’ve lost alot. Still have a ways to go, but it’s a bit faster since I actually decided how I want to look. Power of visualization I guess.
I’m still old and getting older though. 😉
More power to you! It’s nice to see someone bite the bullet and improve themselves.
LikeLike
unless he was j. edwards, if the roles were reversed, the media would revile him outwardly, while broads secretly got wet at his cold/calloused behavior…
LikeLike
serenity_now,
I’m thinking another thing that could skew the surveys (and I’m sure it’s been thought of but I have a lot of other things that I have to read so I don’t have the time) is the fact that many women don’t consider oral sex to be sex so they won’t count that as a sex partner in surveys but I think men would in surveys.
You said “most relationships are open to threesomes”. While I’m sure it happens, I kind of doubt it. In the circles I run in this is probably only slightly more common than the unicorn. Maybe I should get out more. Too bad you have a boyfriend (not that “a boyfriend” has ever stopped me BTW); If you had a girlfriend then a threesome would be more appealing to me.
Do you really think I’m a sexist a-hole? Why then do you think I only date nerds? Maybe I can do more damage to womynkind that way by dragging the best ones down? Not true, but I certainly do think with my d*ck and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I spent several semesters doing work in an academic area similar to David Gale (though not his sexual pairing stuff) only because I both liked the subject and there were 3 hot, smart women in the same field and when I was more of a dating wussy it was easiest way to get in a hot chick’s pants. I can’t say studying that stuff hurt my career either – business situations aren’t much different.
Your pretty smart so I’m sure you didn’t mean to call me a “sexist a-hole” instead you mean “sexiest a-hole”.
Your boyfriend should argue with you more if he is to be considered a keeper. He may be a wussy. But maybe he isn’t fighting you more because he’s not really into you and doesn’t think you’re worth the effort.
I can analytically keep up with any debate but I confess most lawyers are probably better at verbally splitting hairs on fine details- that’s what I usually pay them for – to stall people until they recover from their anger. The good fights are when you’re really red in the face and ready to throw things. I find about 10 minutes after a fight that my other brain (my d*ck) finally can think clearly enough to have great sex. Otherwise I’m thinking too much about stupid intellectual stuff and it kills the mood.
LikeLike
Hence the importance of identifying the church in your area:
a. where the university students go; and/or
b. which is known for where singles meet up.
Interesting. I’ve been going to a church with a large, active singles group, but the pickin’s are pretty slim, and the good-looking girls so far have gotten scooped up by more alpha guys before I could even get my bearings. Of course, I’m just starting to learn game now, so hopefully next time I’ll be that alpha.
The church is in the burbs, though. I’ll have to find out if there’s one that’s better known as a singles meeting place and pay it a visit.
a. Most of the girls haven’t been exposed too much, if at all, to the bars, so they don’t have an inflated sense of their attractiveness.
This is true, but we don’t want to give people the impression that they correspondingly have a realistic sense of how women’s market value declines as they age. The good-looking ones tend to hold out, creating the very real possibility that guys in the church will ultimately adopt the “if I wasn’t good enough for you when you were 25, you’re not good enough for me now that you’re 35” attitude discussed upthread. For example, say I were to not learn game and remain a beta. The girl I mentioned, who wouldn’t give me the time of day when I was interested in her before, might decided she’s willing to settle for me once she passes 30. But what would I want with her then? Why would a woman expect a guy to want to settle down with a woman who’s already started to sag and wrinkle on their honeymoon, and will only go downhill from there? Church girls aren’t any more clued into this reality than secular girls; in fact, they’re often less so, since they think church men will be spiritual enough not to care about looks.
Which brings us to a postscript: I should point out for the benefit of others reading (I’m sure Thursday already knows this) that what we’ve been saying about church girls applies only to the ones who are at least decent-looking. Evangelical churches of course contain a surfeit of ugly and/or fat girls who absolutely SWOON over beta providers, and they carry around a load of bitterness, resentment, and jealousy because the betas aren’t interested in them and instead are holding out for a decent-looking girl.
LikeLike
Tsk, tsk. This discussion of prospects at large evangelical churches is quite dismaying to me. After all, one should attend church out of religious conviction and out of ulterior motives (heavy sarcasm on).
Something like this once happened to me years ago during my single days. I had mentioned to some smug married asshole at work (also a member of The Tribe, I’m embarrassed to say) that I had joined a synagogue, upon which he challenged my motivation.
My response was to lean in and ask (rhetorically?) “Oh yeah, and just exactly where do you think Jewish children come from?”
He avoided me after that.
LikeLike
Markku, I don’t really see the weight loss as the improvement. It’s a side effect of my reclaimed hobbies. People’s bodies look like what they do, more or less.
For me, it’s all about the feeling better, but I do accept the role of the body as a kind of costume, not just a vehicle. I was a firetruck, but now I’m working on becoming a well cared for 1969 429 Boss Mustang.
Not everybody’s cup of tea, but healthier and more satisfying I think, for a “MILF” than trying to look like a Fiat Bravo just because it’s younger. Those get snatched up by guys who don’t really know how to drive, worn out within a couple of years, and spend the rest of their short lives being passed around by people who just need something to get from point A to B.
JM says, “Evangelical churches of course contain a surfeit of ugly and/or fat girls who absolutely SWOON over beta providers, and they carry around a load of bitterness, resentment, and jealousy because the betas aren’t interested in them and instead are holding out for a decent-looking girl.”
Having been forced into that scene when I was younger, I think you’re misinterpreting where the anger and bitterness comes from. It’s not that the guys are holding out for a better looking woman. It’s that so many of them are two-faced and going for the easy women.
Most severely Christian girls I know take pretty good care of themselves like I do. There’s this whole thing about being prepared for your future husband that the Lord will bring you if you stay the course.
Of course that seldom actually happens because no matter how naturally beautiful you are, if you dress modestly, don’t wear makeup, and cover your head if you feel led in that direction (which I did and still do on occasion), you’re invisible to men except for that rare guy who is actually looking for a wife on purpose. Beauty is kind of meaningless to a guy if it’s not available. He’ll look and think, “Wow, but she won’t have sex with me until we’re married.”
Another girl can look like she was beaten with an ugly stick, but if she’s wearing miniskirts and makeup to church, she’s getting the guy.
What normally happens is that the guys in church are bonking the easy girls, often from outside the church, and they get married because she gets pregnant, or because of guilt. So by the time a raised Christian woman gets a little older, she realizes she’s been fooled by people who told her it was about being good enough, not being predatory enough.
The lingering Christian side of me doesn’t mind at all that there are guys coming back to the church to find a wife. Many women do the same thing, spending some time “slutting” around, realizing that’s leading them nowhere good, and returning. So long as people sincerely intend to improve and change their lives, it’s all good to me.
The more agnostic and kind of “whatever works” African spiritual side of me however, advises caution. If you intend to live a Christian life with your new wife, then it’s cool, but if you’re doing it so you can snag a wifely type of woman, and then turn around and backslide to your old cussing, philandering, all kinds of wrong self, then this will lead to disaster.
So if you’re going back to church, consider it a package deal. The religion comes with the woman.
This was one of many reasons that I left organized religion. I’d rather get with a guy who lives according to his values, and doesn’t use his faith label as a cover.
LikeLike
Markku, I don’t really see the weight loss as the improvement.
Men do, you can bet on that.
LikeLike
kthulah, well done everyone wants to fuck you. Understand that this will not change until you are old and unnatractive, at which point these men will no longer even want to be your friends.
I suggest you fuck all these guys while you can.
LikeLike
Markku, I’m sure they do in general, but I notice a distinct difference between the guys who know what I’ve been through or recognize real fitness when they see it, and those of the “teeming masses” who are just trying to get some from whoever will give it to them. Mind you, I’m still fat, just considerably less fat than I was.
So I’m in that limbo where I’ve fallen out of the fetishist threshold, and am now trying to deal with the dudes who assume I’m an insecure easy lay just because I’m at their “minimum floor of attractiveness” or whatever.
I like the attention when it’s not rude, but until I get to the point where I look like myself, I feel like they’re aiming at someone who isn’t me. That bit of it is annoying.
LikeLike
Eh…grouty, I’m sure that not everyone wants to fuck me. Despite the denial that you may find rampant among many of the abs impaired, I am not, and never have been, even at my heaviest, among the muffin tops.
I always understood that there was a price to pay for being who I am. I learned to be happy with myself not by sustaining an illusion that everyone wanted me, or even that they should, but by being the best me that I could be.
The rest is just bean based gravy. 😉
LikeLike
Of course, I’m just starting to learn game now, so hopefully next time I’ll be that alpha.
Remember, the key to social circle game is being the guy who is seen talking to everyone, especially the ugly girls, but also the guy. You want to be the social guy who creates a kind of low key “buzz.”
The church is in the burbs, though.
The burbs are death. Slim pickings is right. Not to mention a wide gap between the university students and the older singles, who tend to be the “leftovers,” i.e. ugly and/or socially maladjusted.
What normally happens is that the guys in church are bonking the easy girls, often from outside the church, and they get married because she gets pregnant, or because of guilt.
There is that scene, but in Canada it is a lot less because in the U.S. “everybody” is religious. This is particularly bad in the black community.
Of course that seldom actually happens because no matter how naturally beautiful you are, if you dress modestly, don’t wear makeup, and cover your head if you feel led in that direction (which I did and still do on occasion), you’re invisible to men except for that rare guy who is actually looking for a wife on purpose. Beauty is kind of meaningless to a guy if it’s not available. He’ll look and think, “Wow, but she won’t have sex with me until we’re married.”
Wrong.
1. Beautiful girls always get offers, if they are exposed to enough guys.
2. Most guys notice beauty even without makeup etc.
This was one of many reasons that I left organized religion. I’d rather get with a guy who lives according to his values, and doesn’t use his faith label as a cover.
Of course, you need to have some desire to return to the faith for it’s own sake. Going to church _just_ to find a wife is a bit creepy.
LikeLike
Thursday
“This was one of many reasons that I left organized religion. I’d rather get with a guy who lives according to his values, and doesn’t use his faith label as a cover.”
This is a good way to go as those who live in accordance with their own values tend to adhere to them better, and behave in what society would consider a more “moral” fashion.
http://alphadominance.com/?p=416
LikeLike
There is that scene, but in Canada it is a lot less because in the U.S. “everybody” is religious. This is particularly bad in the black community.
Right; as a fellow Canadian, and as an evangelical, I agree with you. Interesting discussion you’ve got going here. (I’ve never seen a whole ‘scene’ of people engaging in what you’re talking about, only individuals here and there.)
This also reminds me of something that JM said earlier, which I was going to comment on but didn’t until now.
In Canada – unlike the US where, as you point out, “everybody” is religious, and the weekly church attendance rate is so high that it staggers me – there is usually little reason to attend church unless you are really strongly sincere about your beliefs.
A strongly committed evangelical woman generally wants an equally strongly committed man to be her ‘male leader’ husband – this is the brand of ‘alpha’ that they are attracted to; this is the kind of alpha that good evangelical girls fantasize about. (Yes, really; sexual attraction aside, good evangelical girls fantasize about alpha men who will LEAD the family in a bible study, or whatever.) So here’s the thing: oftentimes the more attractive these women are, the more they think they deserve a super-alpha-of-faith like some superstar biblical figure.
Committed evangelicals also tend to be very good at differentiating those whom they think are sincere about their beliefs from those who are not so sincere but are putting on a false front.
When it comes to marriage, therefore, deeply committed evangelical women looking for husbands can smell a man who isn’t so sincere about his beliefs and is only kind of ‘faking’ it while on the lookout for a ‘conservative’-type wife. And… attractive evangelical women are going to be particularly picky about the fact that one of the attributes her future husband has to possess is that he has to be a strong-faith-alpha.
(Evangelical women do occasionally marry men of lesser, or even no faith, but this is less common the more attractive she is, unless she’s a former slut.)
Hence the point I was going to make above: JM gave a scenario where he wanted the girl and failed. What I was going to say was that while the alpha/beta dynamic was probably a factor, it may not have been all. There’s a good chance the girl would never have wanted him because she sensed his beliefs weren’t as strong as she wanted.
(I say this not knowing what JM’s religious convictions are, because he hasn’t told us.)
LikeLike
kthulah,
Of course that seldom actually happens because no matter how naturally beautiful you are, if you dress modestly, don’t wear makeup, and cover your head if you feel led in that direction (which I did and still do on occasion), you’re invisible to men except for that rare guy who is actually looking for a wife on purpose. Beauty is kind of meaningless to a guy if it’s not available. He’ll look and think, “Wow, but she won’t have sex with me until we’re married.”
Not true if the guy is willing to wait till marriage for sex, and true-believing evangelical guys are. Or, in other words, what Thursday said: you’re displaying the typical female cluelessness about what is physically attractive to men. We don’t care about, and don’t even notice, clothes, hair, makeup, or any of that crap. We can see right through to the raw materials underneath. A girl could show up at church wearing no makeup, in an ankle-length skirt and wearing a head covering, and if she had a pretty face and a nice body I’d notice and be attracted to her.
Thursday,
Remember, the key to social circle game is being the guy who is seen talking to everyone, especially the ugly girls, but also the guy. You want to be the social guy who creates a kind of low key “buzz.”
Thanks for the tip. Do you know of any instructional materials that focus on social circle game? I’ve started to look at the list of recommendations Roissy provided for a reader a couple of months ago, and naturally most of it focuses on the bar scene. I’ll go there just to practice if it’s really necessary for self-improvement purposes, but it’s ultimately not where I want to spend my time.
Kirt33,
(I say this not knowing what JM’s religious convictions are, because he hasn’t told us.)
Of course, you are right. Being a Bible-study-leader-type alpha guy is very important to a lot of these girls. I’m a believing Christian, but I’ve attended evangelical churches more by process of elimination. I’d be more comfortable in a high-church, liturgical setting, but I don’t agree with Catholic or Orthodox theology, the mainline protestant churches are dead (and mainly mere hardcore left-wing politicized institutions at this point), so what’s left? Evangelicalism. It’s hard for me to feel the intense, personal, minute-to-minute piety that seems to define the evangelical experience, so while I am intellectually willing to affirm the typical credal statements used in evangelical churches, I probably don’t give an impression of being, as they say, “on fire for the Lord.” Also, as you may know, even evangelical churches have gone liberal on many issues (race, immigration) and are starting to soften on homosexuality, so as a traditional conservative race realist who wants to preserve Western civilization, I’d be branded a bigot (and therefore unChristian, and therefore unattractive as a potential husband) by many evangelicals if they knew my true views.
So, I’m not some atheist or agnostic cynically looking to prey upon church girls solely because I want a wife, but I do sort of have one foot in and one foot out of the evangelical subculture, and that may show in subtle ways. But, what else is one to do if one wants a decent-looking traditional wife?
LikeLike
Do you know of any instructional materials that focus on social circle game?
You’re right. So much of this PUA material is very bar and club oriented. That’s one of the reaons I’m not as high as Roissy and Sebastian Flyte are on the original Mystery Method book. It’s great, but . . .
As for me, I’ve mostly just been improvising on my own.
The big things are:
1. Get social proof, i.e. talk to everyone, be a leader in discussions etc.
2. Learn to talk about things that are interesting to girls and save your best material for when attractive girls are listening.
3. Learn how to properly tease.
4. Learn how to stand like a man.
5. Learn how to touch, and then touch everyone.
6. Learn how to recognize IOIs. Huge.
Also, don’t bother with phone numbers, unless she’s a visitor. You’re just setting yourself up for a potential flake. After you’ve talked to her 3 or 4 times, just set something up in person.
Also, with social circle game, you don’t have to worry about blowouts or cockblocking. If she is distracted by something else, just start immediately talking to someone else, which is easy, cause it’s a social circle. If you’ve gotten some IOIs, just assume attraction, and feel free to re-engage when opportunity arises. Sometimes girls just really want to talk to their friends, so don’t make a big deal of it. Just keep talking to everyone.
Savoy, Mr. M, and Tenmagnet are the social circle game people. There is some basic stuff in Magic Bullets and couple good segments on Warm Approaches and Social Circle game in the Lovesytems interview series. Tenmagnet is really the go to guy for this. He’s actually a very accessible guy and I’m sure he could direct you to more resources if you emailed him. His site is http://www.tenmagnet.com.
I’ll go there just to practice if it’s really necessary for self-improvement purposes, but it’s ultimately not where I want to spend my time.
Bars suck for finding quality women, but they are great places to practice. Especially since there are so many distractions in a bar or club. So, if you get even decent there, you will be surprised how easy things are for you in your social circle. Just remember to tone things down. You don’t want to come across as a dancing monkey, or, even worse, send out the player vibe.
I’d be more comfortable in a high-church, liturgical setting, but I don’t agree with Catholic or Orthodox theology, the mainline protestant churches are dead (and mainly mere hardcore left-wing politicized institutions at this point), so what’s left? Evangelicalism. It’s hard for me to feel the intense, personal, minute-to-minute piety that seems to define the evangelical experience, so while I am intellectually willing to affirm the typical credal statements used in evangelical churches, I probably don’t give an impression of being, as they say, “on fire for the Lord.”
I hear you. I sympathize much more with the high church tradition, but evangelicals are the only large group of more or less tradition minded people out there.
As for the personal piety thing, just learn to express passion about everything you do and it won’t take much to express genuine passion about the aspects of faith that do move you. Again, don’t try to outcompete the holy rollers in your church, just learn to express a bit of passion now and then.
A strongly committed evangelical woman generally wants an equally strongly committed man to be her ‘male leader’ husband – this is the brand of ‘alpha’ that they are attracted to; this is the kind of alpha that good evangelical girls fantasize about. (Yes, really; sexual attraction aside, good evangelical girls fantasize about alpha men who will LEAD the family in a bible study, or whatever.)
You really should read Jane Austen’s Mansfield Park. It’s one long ode to this kind of man. Maybe that’s why the book is so much less popular among secular women.
(I’ll also put in a plug for Whit Stillman’s Metropolitan, where the most adorable character loves Mansfield Park.)
LikeLike
even evangelical churches have gone liberal on many issues (race, immigration
Yes, apparently, God also loves non-white people, and he’d like you to love them too. Ooops.
LikeLike
Committed evangelicals also tend to be very good at differentiating those whom they think are sincere about their beliefs from those who are not so sincere but are putting on a false front.
Oh so true.
And as for myself, growing up and hanging around a lot of genuinely good girls, who are not hard to find in church environments, you really do pick up really fast on signs of bad character.
One way to pick up on bad girls and sluts is to hang around them a lot like Roissy. The other is to hang around with a lot of truly good girls.
LikeLike
JM says, “A girl could show up at church wearing no makeup, in an ankle-length skirt and wearing a head covering, and if she had a pretty face and a nice body I’d notice and be attracted to her.”
You obviously didn’t go to my church then.
I was that girl. In none of the churches I ever went to, did any guy ever even try to talk to me, or for that matter, any of the girls like me.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying that it is outside of my realm of experience. I’ve only seen it happen a couple of times, and the girls weren’t particularly “beautiful”. One was actually quite fat, and her husband was one of those eye-catching handsome guys.
At the time I was in that scene, I was superfit and very chesty. One could argue that guys can tell if a woman is dangerous, but I doubt that.
Once I was of age, I went to the singles meetings and such. I participated, and my parents had Bible study meetings. I was meeting single Christian guys all the time, but getting nowhere.
…but then one night, dressed relatively modestly, I went to a dance club with some friends. There I met a nice Christian guy who didn’t have a stick up his bum. A few years later though, he started pulling away because of all the hypothetical hoes he thought he was missing out on.
So that whole scene is a huge turn-off for me. The selfishness and superficiality rampant in “normal” western society has definitely permeated the church since long, even though women in the church have remained fairly conservative. The men have abandonned them in favor of the easier options that require less self discipline and personal responsibility.
My mom tells me that she suspects that the reason I became ill was more spiritual than physical. I don’t know if that’s true, but I can see why she’d believe that. I am sure that a good bit of the reason I didn’t press hard enough for a clear diagnosis was because I felt that my world was falling apart.
On the flip side of that, I had the displeasure of watching a dear friend of our family lose his wife to another man who wasn’t even Christian. He was a jerk. Our friend suffered alot because he loved her dearly. He was one of those guys about whom I’d say to myself, “When I grow up, I hope I get a husband who loves me like that.”
So seriously, whatever you guys do, I hope you’re really committed to it. If it helps though, if you do get left behind because she loses her religion, there really are plenty of women in the church who would die for a guy who notices them even though they’re modest.
LikeLike
Is it incredibly sick of me to wonder if that guy has a girlfriend?
LikeLike
JM–
There’s always the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. . .
LikeLike
2. Learn to talk about things that are interesting to girls and save your best material for when attractive girls are listening.
I know this makes me sound like a social robot, but any tips for developing a good feel for what’s interesting to girls? All I’m acquainted with from my meager game-related reading so far is the type of “chick crack” described in The Game and the Mystery Method Venusian Arts handbook, and as you know, Christian girls don’t go for palm-readings and being asked if they think magic spells work.
I’ve tried coming up with some situational, female-opinion-oriented questions (e.g., a female friend commented when we were in a group on how I’m letting my hair grow, so I asked whether she thought there were “short hair” girls and “long hair” girls and what the difference was) but so far, nothing I’ve come up with has generated a very enthusiastic response.
LikeLike
JM:
I will respond when I have some time.
BTW you can get ahold of me via my email over at my site.
LikeLike
[…] partners by 20 years old? According to studies, the median number of lifetime sex partners for American women is three (so really, it’s six, since we have to double whatever number […]
LikeLike
[…] is the median number of sex partners that an American woman has? “The median number of sex partners for American women is […]
LikeLike
[…] in odds of divorce to 70%. What man would want to screw his chances by marrying that? No wonder women react so vehemently to accusations of sluttitude and to helpful hints from yours truly on how best to identify sluts before you get in too […]
LikeLike
Fucking magnificent.
Writing like this redeems my faith in humanity; there are people out there who get it.
LikeLike