I remember this girl I dated when I first moved to DC. She was one of those types that had trouble keeping female friends but collected male orbiters like stinger-less bee drones to honey. Perhaps she incited the jealousy of other women with her brazen sexuality, or perhaps she tried to make friends with women out of her social league. I wasn’t sure and I didn’t care, even though I had to put up with listening to her woeful stories of victimology.
I’ve learned many mythbusting realities about women over the years of loving them, but one of the most disappointing lessons I’ve learned is how threadbare, shallow and tenuous are their friendships with female peers. For all the jabbering they do amongst themselves, the bonds that hold girl friends together are a surprisingly superficial amalgam of Machiavellian maneuvering, parched politesse, feigned sympathy, self-absorbed clucking, and fickle loyalty. It’s as if female friendships exist only to serve the banal purpose of group cohesion and social climbing, in stark contrast with male friendships that can strengthen unencumbered by ulterior motives and which often require nothing more than the tacit assumption of “I’ve got your back”.
One time I took this girl to a party where female friends of mine would be in attendance. (About 1/3 of my friends are women, and 2/3s men. After 5pm, that ratio reverses.) She noticed one of the girls was flirty around me. I agreed that she probably was nursing a long-held #1 crush. Out of earshot, my date then proceeded to call this girl fat, and grabbed my hand to walk with me in front of the girl, ostensibly to provoke seething jealousy. I didn’t appreciate it. This was evidence that my date was a woman of poor character.
Some months later we broke up, and through intermediaries I learned that she had become good friends with the chubby girl she formerly ripped to pieces with a gleam in her eye. I wondered if she knew of her new friend’s less than complimentary opinion of her, or if it was all bitchiness under the bridge.
Gossip is a natural property of human nature and something in which almost everyone, men and women, indulge (though women to a far greater extent than men). It is probably an evolutionary outgrowth of human status hierarchies, and so isn’t going anywhere soon. For that reason, I’m generally bemused if I hear that friends are gossiping about me. It’s all part of doing business as a DNA carrying replicant. Nothing much to get worked up over. But there is a line crossed where gossip becomes corrupted and twisted by resentment and ill will; when it becomes less a feature of human social dynamics than a bug. The caustic whisperings and barely concealed snarls behind phoneyfemme smiles and exaggerated “Hiiiiiiii!!!”s that hit six different musical notes hide a dark, bitter soul. Invariably, it is women who are the shameless practitioners of this viciously psychological ego-feeding art. Occasionally, the poisoned opinions get out there in the ether like slimy tentacles, afflicting every social circle conversation with a brute manipulative face-saving veneer. But most of the time, the vaj vector of dirty gossip is skilled enough to keep her real feelings under wraps.
Not every girl is like this. I have dated girls, bless their hearts of gold, who had nothing but kind words to say about their girl friends behind closed doors. In fact, one of the key indicators that the girl you are dating is girlfriend material worthy of your non-penis time and attention is what she thinks of her friends when she has the opportunity to unload on them. Listen to what she says about her friends when it’s just you and her. This will give you tremendous insight into how she will treat you over the long haul.
To those girls who possess a depth of untarnished loyalty for their friends — in the middle of the night with the shades drawn and no one but the company of your conscience, you know who you are — don’t think for a minute that we men don’t notice your good character. You are a rare catch. Most women have no need for the virtue that makes you stand out…
Integrity.
First!
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I have a question. I’ve been reading for a few weeks now, more interested than anything else. I can see pieces of truth in parts of the rhetoric that’s discussed here, but it hit me when I was reading this: do you really think that women are that different than men? You talk about women as if they’re accessories, half-creatures to suit your needs without really needing or deserving fulfillment of their own outside you. And there’s such an anger in your voice. So angry, so hurt, so betrayed. Don’t you think that women are just human, just like you? Maybe they have their own goals, fears, hopes, dreams, friendships, etc? That they have souls equal to your own? That perhaps they’re not all shallow, hateful creatures who can’t be trusted to do anything but treat their own physical needs?
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Agreed. Integrity is a rare and very good thing.
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A girl: “That perhaps they’re not all shallow, hateful creatures who can’t be trusted to do anything but treat their own physical needs?”
I think you are missing the point here, Roissy isn’t saying that all women are shallow, hateful creatures – just that some of them are. And from my pretty extensive experience I have to agree, although obviously there are a few nice ones. Finding a nice one is similar to searching for truffles…it may take days, it may take years, but if you trawl through enough shit you eventually find what you are looking for.
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This post is Truth.
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It is nice to see you point the way to the virtues in the good ones – perhaps women reading this will heed the advice
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So. You just figured this out about female friendships? I’ve got another bit of breaking news for you: the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
Peter
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@ a girl
there are a lot of really pointless, vapid, wishful-thinking type comments from women on this site. yours isn’t one of them. in fact, i think you get to the heart of exactly what purpose this blog serves. you seem to be saying, ‘yeah, women aren’t perfect, but everyone knows that.’ the problem is that not everyone knows that. there are a lot of men still walking around with the image of woman as ‘sugar and spice and everything nice.’
i don’t think you realize to what degree the average woman has an upperhand over the average man. and by the average man, i mean men who are still working with a traditionalist mentality of gender in a post-feminist world. to many men, women’s behavior can seem completely capricious and therefore, incredibly frustrating. if roissy’s language seems harsh, it’s because that may be the only way to destroy the bullshit image that many men have constructed in their heads.
as a woman, it makes perfect sense that you don’t see the need for such a thing. for one thing, it’s to your advantage that the vast majority of men remain clueless. also, in general, women don’t call themsleves or others to task in the same manner that men do. essentially, what roissy has created here is the oprah show acted out in the language of morton downey jr.
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It’s surprising that Roissy has such strong negative opinions on the morality of females when he seems to delight in having a morality like a child grappling with Milton or an especially naive Objectivist.
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This is the main reason female status hierarchies rarely expand beyond a small set, and why the very idea of a female expedition or female corporation are ludicrous. The Devil Wears Prada is a great example of why there are no female corporations – intense, mindnumbing, pointless jealousy. Here’s Steve Sailer’s great review.
“Perhaps you shouldn’t mention this around the feminist thought police, but women often hate working for other women. While men compete for status by trying to include as many underlings as possible in their hierarchies, women gain prestige by excluding the maximum number from their cliques.”
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I resent that!
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Along the same lines Camille Paglia pointed out how female rock bands rarely last, as women can’t stand to be second to any diva. Fleetwood Mac’s Christine McVie is a notable exception, who for decades was content to stand back while Stevie Nick’s danced and pranced in the spotlight.
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Guys do pretty much the same thing as described, they just call them haters. I don’t see what is so woman-exceptional about his. Once jealousy arises, people behave in all manner of spiteful ways, that once that feeling has subsided, they might regret.
It seems to me, for all the backbiting and gossip, that female friendships tend to last longer and be closer, while most guys don’t have any friends at all once they marry. Or they still consider someone a “friend” despite the fact that they talk once every other month, and see each other twice a year. Pick your poison.
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The women of poor character that Roissy refers to are overrepresented by multitudes in the bar skank crowd that he trawls in. Bar skanks are a unique subset of woman. We are all remodeled and reshaped by those we spend time with. Choose wisely.
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“The one thing that most men value most – loyalty – is just not there with women.”
(for those who are new to this blog, click on the link at your own risk – it’s the sad experience of some of us guys in a nutshell; you might never look at woman the same way)
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@Sebastion:
You used the phrase “female status hierarchies”. there is no such thing.
Pagillia wrote about this. Women do not naturally create hierarchies. We create round-and-around networks. Tightly knitted networks. Ex: the women in charge of any fundraising effort will always choose a co-chairwoman, a co-president, co-exect. Men naturally accept a single leader. Women share leadership –when they have the choice.
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I’m still trying to figure out what the pictures in this and the previous post has to do with the story. It’s like there’s some sort of secret puzzle to figure out.
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Wow this is so “Real Talk” I don’t even have something funny to say. I’ve dated sorority girls and cheerleaders and Dancers and the shit they talk about each other is crazy…. AND THIS IS THEIR TEAM MATES!
;
I was recently at a birthday party for a girl and I noticed a couple of her so called best friends came stayed for not even 15 minutes, said their necessary happy birthdays then peaced out. I thought to myself, “damn, these are the people that call themselves your friend?”… It seemed more like a front to me
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jealous catty bitch:
The women of poor character that Roissy refers to are overrepresented by multitudes in the bar skank crowd that he trawls in. Bar skanks are a unique subset of woman.
you are wrong.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-bar-girl/
while the average sluttiness might be a little higher among girls who go to bars than girls who stay home crocheting, there is no evidence that girls who hang out in bars on any given night are a unique subset of women. if you want to argue that (and i think i know why you do) then you had best be prepared to indict nearly all women.
meow meow bitch.
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Why does the venue of recreation never appear in the dialogues here? The venue is always clubs and bars. Why not running club, masters swim club, biking club, kyaking group, sailing group, cross-country ski group?
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As per your usual , Roissy, you state that women who don’t go to bars are -old, -ugly, -fat. Consider: -hate the smell, too cheap to buy alcohol, -prefer the men we meet at school or work.
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Oh…boy. There is definite truth to this. I think there are some women who do rip each other to shreds…and sometimes we are just aware of our friend’s shortcomings, maybe bitch about them a bit, and move on.
I often feel men just “pass time” with each other and rarely have true, honest, and genuine relationships and that is just as bad.
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This is total and utter crap, it is clear that you are underdeveloped and only seeing a select population of women! Get out in the world, talk to people, have a REAL relationship.
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“Why not running club, masters swim club, biking club, kyaking group, sailing group, cross-country ski group?”
Because we want hot, nubile sex goddesses, not chicks with clits bigger than Roissy’s dick.
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anony It is so tiring to hear that this is all about “bad girls”, and that we miss out on the good ones.
Before I got into the bar scene and good at what most guys on here are doing, I had a few long term relationships with girls I selected thoroughly from college courses and libraries.
These were good girls by any definition of what roissy and other here come up with.
They had less than a handful previous partners. Never dressed skankily. They hated bars and loud clubs. They liked classical music. Dorks. Nerds. But cute. Smart, educated, warm and loving humans. And they were madly in love with me.
They were innocent and sweet.
Or so I thought.
It just takes one mega-alpha guy in the form of a colleague, a neighbor or even a distant cousin to turn these poor women into the same helpless little animalistic creatures magnetically drawn to these guys dicks as all the oh so “bad girls” that you girls feel are different from you.
Good girls will typically be shocked themselves after having had that experience. They will break down and cry. They will genuinely hate themselves for what they did. But deep down they realize that this can happen again. And again.
Let me add that I was strictly monogamous in all these relationships. So are most of my friends.
As a man you get raised in the belief that you are a hounddog. A sexual predator. Society teaches you mental handcuffs that enable you to say “no” to the most beautiful woman naked on their knees in front of you begging you to do to her whatever you want any way you want.
All a man asks for in return for that eternal self control (because we get tempted all the time and not just once in a blue moon when an alpha comes by) – is the warm feeling of knowing that his partner’s crotch is his exclusively.
This is not just a male romantic fantasy. It is a biological imperative. Men who could not ensure their partners exclusivity are less likely among our ancestors. Most of these were “fathers”, but their genes got weeded out during evolution. We are the children of some good girls who let their betas impregnate them, and a whole bunch more unfaithful women and alphas (genetic studies suggest that 80% of women throughout history passed on their genes, compared to only 40% of guys – you do the math).
Women do not get raised the same way. Girls often believe they are naturally more controlled when it comes to sex.
The illusion is easy to hold up, because most of the time women will not be tempted. It is those rare moments when a woman gets really tested – truly challenged in resisting to do what her dripping pussy tells her to do – that I have yet to see a female able to resist.
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agree with Lemmonex:
I often feel men just “pass time” with each other and rarely have true, honest, and genuine relationships and that is just as bad.
This is especially true after men marry. Sadly, their social lives follow their wives initiatives , rather than their own initiatives.
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Anybody have any experience with either librarians or grade-school teachers?Where do they rank on the slut scale?
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i agree with roissy and think there’s a distinction to be made – twentysomething girls hanging out in bars in cities are definitely NOT the same subset as their fortysomething wannabe-cougar counterparts who never grew up and out of that phase of their lives.
you can’t just blindly indict the majority of girls who go to bars to let loose, have a few drinks, laugh with friends and maybe meet someone. you don’t have to be Masterpiece Theater every night of the week to be categorized as a lady of class, the same way that guys who frequent bars aren’t always dripping with sleaze.
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It was never mysterious, as betas we had the full range of vicious mendacity turned on us fairly transparently, with no appeal and no recourse. “I have a boyfriend.” “I just don’t think of you that way.” Etc. Etc. The friendly smile and nod to keep up appearances in passing, tied to the stab in the back. “HE invited ME to dinner. Can you believe it? EW. Creepy.” Which is why you never get dates at a small school once one girl turns you down, except for the UGs and the outcasts.
Sometimes there are smart, pretty outcasts.
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and also, not every bar out there is a frat-laden McFadden’s or Tom Tom.
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Women are definitely more likely to have catty, backstabby “frenemies” in their orbit, and many of their friendships are like this due to their reluctance to cut dead weight, no matter how toxic the person is. I know women who, no matter how bad a friend is, will agonize about cutting her out of her life and get guilt-ridden. When guys don’t like another guy, even for nebulous reason, they avoid being around the person without a second thought.
BUt in fairness to women, when they do form the occasional close, intense friendship, it’s 1000x more intimate, trustworthy and intense than most male friendships. They can tell each other anythnig and be 100% vulnerable around each other without judgment and willing to ask each other for anything. When I read Kassy K’s blog I sense she has several friendships like this.
So women are definitely more likely to have bad, insincere catty friendships, but they are also more likely to have a diehard, intense friendship too. For guys, no matter how close we are to another guy we always find ourselves worrying about coming off weak or as a ‘mo if we show too much vulnerability or act like we need someone too lean on.
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BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah, you’re special baby, you’ve got integrity. Now excuse me while I fuck around behind your back. It’s the natural thing to do. Fucking hilarious.
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@Roissy,
catty bitch,………….meow, meow,
Waaaaaaaaay off the mark.
I’ll admit to occasional jealously (Condoleza Rice, Julie Gerberding-influence, Debra Messing-pretty , but not toward bar skanks.
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I agree with T. I have one, true best friend. She has been there through everything and honestly, if I died with her holding my hand, it would be ok. I love her more than I have ever loved a man. I rarely see men like this.
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Lemmonex:
I often feel men just “pass time” with each other and rarely have true, honest, and genuine relationships and that is just as bad.
It keeps things simple. What man wants to get tangled up in a web of cloying sentimentality?
When we need to huddle, we hang out at Roissy’s tree fort and bang our drums.
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The New York Times had an article about women in the workplace today. It jibes with the theme of this post.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/jobs/11pre.html?_r=1&8dpc
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Roissy is obviously the shining light of Integrity. It is important that all are validated before the Esteemed being Roissy.
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You are a rare catch. Most women have no need for the virtue that makes you stand out…
Integrity.
Integrity? Is that anything like Asshole game with girl trying to break up with me in Starbucks?
As usual you require what you lack. Doesn’t work.
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Anony — women participate in these things (kayaking, etc) either with their boyfriends in tow or in all women environments (no men accepted). Women have constructed social norms (approach in bars OK, not in other environments) and that is the way it is.
There ARE no other venues for meeting women. These clubs are about the activity, women actively discourage pick-ups as noted above, that’s it.
As for rip-each-other to shreds, it can be worse or better depending on class, status, geography, etc. It’s also not incompatible with emotional ties either. Men tend to have larger social networks, that are shallow (low emotional ties) but non-competitive. Women have smaller groups, higher emotional intensity, often competing for objectives (status, guys, etc.)
Men and women are different socially. A few women will act like men, particularly in the Mountain West (see Sarah Palin), and a few men will act like women. But this holds in the main. Neither is “better” than the other.
What is a tragedy is how alienated and removed men and women are from each other. If you don’t like the attitudes on this blog (this goes for “A Girl” as well) you might as well resign yourself to far WORSE. The soft polygamy of a few bad-boy Alphas (20% of men) monopolizing about 80% of the women means a huge imbalance, in favor of women (who prefer on balance “soft” polygamy) and a lot of male losers, new to Western society, who are unhappy and can and will express that throughout their lives. Imagine guys in their fifties and older who’ve gone decades without women. Now imagine them dealing with you.
The only way to prevent widespread contempt for women by men is tying men to women through well, marriage. Now a man has his whole life invested in his wife, their children, etc.
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There are two kinds of male friendships — situational and close.
The situational ones can be like Army buddies. I’ve had a couple of really good buddies in the service; we always had somethign to talk or joke about, had good times doing stuff, and there was a sense we’d have each other’s back in any situation whatsovever. To the death, bro! But when changing duty stations or leaving the military alltogether, one doesn’t miss them in the slightest; kind of just forgets abut them except for vaguely remembering the good times.
The second type of male friendship, the Close kind, is more rare. The 19th/early 20th century literature is full of them. I have a close group of guys like that, friends since junior high. My o m e g a male friend “Ace” is among them. The feeling is comparable to haviing a brother, except without the overbearing familial thing.
Admittedly, this takes work, especially since with the exception of Ace, we’re married and a few of us live in different states. But we get together at least a couple of times a year. It’s true what someone said about married men’s social life drifting toward the wife’s, but it needn’t be so.
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Even though fictional, “Friends” characters Joey, Chandler and Ross were an example of close male friendships.
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This is true, but it seems to be changing in the younger generations with the rise in “bromances.”
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@Roissy
there is no evidence that girls who hang out in bars on any given night are a unique subset of women.
Bullshit, and obviously an attempt to defend your own lifestyle: http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2009/01/liberal-women-are-more-likely-to-be-bar.html#links
“The General Social Survey shows that the more conservative a woman is, the more likely she is to never go to bars…On the liberal side, a majority of women go to bars, while only a minority of fence-sitting and conservative women do. This backs up the conventional wisdom that if you want a long-term girlfriend or wife, you’d better look some place other than the nightclub scene.”
And please, it would be hilarious if you started playing the “I found three exceptions, so your general rule is wrong” game, beloved of feminists and other retards.
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Because we want hot, nubile sex goddesses, not chicks with clits bigger than Roissy’s dick.
You mean more than two inches long?
Peter
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lem:
I often feel men just “pass time” with each other and rarely have true, honest, and genuine relationships and that is just as bad.
no, passing time in casual friendships is not just as bad as being a fake phonyfuck friend who sticks the shiv in sideways while smiling the whole time.
sara labially quivers in anticipation of my rock hard attention:
Integrity? Is that anything like Asshole game with girl trying to break up with me in Starbucks?
i was integrous. i really didn’t care if she stayed or left.
stand up comedian:
You mean more than two inches long?
your wife disagrees.
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An female friend of mine had this quote that I think is apt to this discussion:
Females keep their friends close, their enemies closer, and their frenemies 18 feet away.
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Lemmonex:
I’d say this is an illusion on your part. Even the best male friends (in fact, especially the best male friends) will treat each other in a seemingly rough way in their everyday interactions. It’s not just about maintaining closeness between men without it looking gay. In fact, one of the basic ways real friendships between men are often manifested is that they are comfortable treating each other in a seemingly aggressive and provocative way, but still in good humor. I don’t know how all this really looks from a woman’s perspective, but I’d bet that women often misunderstand what’s going on between male friends — and I’d say that it happens more often than the other way around.
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a_c, there’s a correlation/causation problem there. are the conservative women not going to bars because they are against them, or are they not going to them because of where they tend to live and the lifestyles their towns allow them to have? most big cities are overwhelmingly liberal, and big cities are also where most of the bars and clubs are, because in big cities where people work longer hours and tend to not have much in the way of roots and longtime social networks and lifelong friendships, bars and clubs are the best outlets to meet new people. So of course if big cities have more barhopping women, those women will be more likely to self-identify as liberals. ANY trend that is more prominent in big cities will be done more by liberals. I’m a conservative in the big city and the female conservatives I know in NY (not many, but they exist) go out as often as the liberal women here I know.
A lot of conservative towns don’t have as many bars per square foot open 7 days a week, so people in those towns couldn’t bar-hop as much as a big city people if they wanted to.
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nerdo desperate to one-up me:
Bullshit, and obviously an attempt to defend your own lifestyle:
what part of
don’t you understand?
ps i read agnostic’s post and i agree with it. but his conclusions do not contradict my eminently reasonable and valid point that despite the likelihood of encountering more liberal sluts in bars than chaste conservative girls, most girls who live in the city or within reach of meeting places like bars and clubs will hang out in them on occasion. women in bars are the same ones you see being classy women on the street during the daytime. very few women of fuckable age and status have actually never been in a bar. (i couldn’t care less where married or otherwise unavailable women hang out). if you want to label girls in bars as skanks you’ll have to indict the entire distaff metropolis.
when stay-at-home women like anony begrudge bar-visiting girls with the scattershot slutsmear what they are revealing is their desire to discredit men such as myself who have success sleeping with women they’ve met in bars.
naturally, they are wide of the mark. but i do enjoy taunting them to take the ill-conceived shot.
pps bars are not the only place i meet women. they’re not even my primary resource.
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Peter is sad.
I think his wife has gonne through a brazilian waxing
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Men go to bars alone all the time. I don’t know many women who go to bars alone.
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The question is not whether there are bar girls and other girls.
The question is whether there are any girls who have the same relationship to the concept of loyalty that men have, i.e. to stick to a person or principle regardless of what you feel like doing at any particular moment in time.
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Roissy has a fondness for the word “nerd,” using it as his generic mindless insult, especially when he was found to be wrong. It’s an interesting tic, and worth keeping an eye on.
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The question is whether there are any girls who have the same relationship to the concept of loyalty that men have, i.e. to stick to a person or principle regardless of what you feel like doing at any particular moment in time.
There are good women out there. Not as many as we might wish, but they are out there.
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“bar girls” “other girls” “liberals like bars” “conservative cities have fewer bars”… this argument is stupid.
What happened to part 4 of assholin’?
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Newbs you guys are really clueless. Modern women don’t have the concept of loyalty, they think differently then men. Part of the reason why divorce rates are 60% and 80% in places like Hollywood. Don’t believe me? Well how about the fact that 20-30% of kids aren’t even the father’s and the wife usually knows this ugly truth but keeps it secret till the kid is grown up. Meaning that the father was tricked into providing resources for another man’s offspring.
Too bad there are dumb people like a lot of you who believes that marriage is still like 50 years ago. Those days are over, now it is a contract between you and the government. You pay money to rent pussy from the government sponsored Harlem. Too bad there used to be stigma attached to divorces so there was some loyalty. Now there isn’t even insurance to keep your whore faithful. Every women is a whore except a nun or virgin. Statistics prove that average age of losing virginity is 15 and US women have more partners than the average man. Stop living in your naive bubble. Every women is a slut… trust me I know… I fucked them all. 😛
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supernerd:
Roissy has a fondness for the word “nerd,” using it as his generic mindless insult, especially when he was found to be wrong.
your surrender in the face of my superior manly argument is noted.
It’s an interesting tic, and worth keeping an eye on.
stalker.
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The question is whether there are any girls who have the same relationship to the concept of loyalty that men have, i.e. to stick to a person or principle regardless of what you feel like doing at any particular moment in time.
That assumes facts that aren’t in evidence. I don’t see any indication of the two sexes that men are more the more loyal ones. Men tend to cheat more, be more violent, and abandon/kill their children at a greater rate than women. It seems like overall, things are a wash.
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roissy:
I think you’re making a mistake here by treating “going to bars” as an either-or. To judge a girl’s quality based on her attendance of bars and clubs, I would want more details about how often she goes and how she behaves when she’s there.
Now, roughly speaking, girls you’ll find in bars/clubs can be divided into three categories relevant for this discussion: (1) girls who came with friends to dance, have a drink, and show off a bit, but generally refuse contact with strangers and make no social connections in bars/clubs as a matter of principle; (2) girls who will talk to strangers who approach them skillfully and might perhaps give you their phone number and accept a date invitation afterwards; and (3) skanks who let themselves be picked up for one night stands. Of course, it’s ridiculous to claim that all girls in bars are in category (3), and I’ll grant you that there are some very nice girls in category (2).
Where you’re making a mistake, however, is when you’re ignoring those in category (1). There are such girls, and they really would never even so much as accept a date offer from someone they just met on a night out. To even think about dating them, you need to establish status in their home social circle (which for conservative girls often revolves around their network of family friends, church, perhaps ethic community, etc.). Even with stellar game, if you try cold-approaching them on a night out, you’ll get blown off before you even have a chance of demonstrating it. (Of course, once you’ve established yourself in the relevant social circle, game can do wonders as usual.)
Needless to say, traditionally-minded, old-fashioned, wife-material nice girls are disproportionately in the category (1), or even don’t go to bars/clubs at all. So, to put it in a nutshell: I agree that the very fact that a girl goes to bars/clubs doesn’t say much about her value, but her willingness to date guys she met there does say something, if only statistically. The latter category doesn’t give a representative sample of women in general.
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roissy,
Integrity may be seen as the quality of having a sense of honesty and truthfulness in regard to the motivations for one’s actions. The term hypocrisy is used in contrast to integrity for asserting that one part of a value system is demonstrably at odds with another, and to demand that the parties holding apparently conflicting values account for the discrepancy or change their beliefs to improve internal consistency.
Hey, at least I don’t claim to have integrity ALL the time. Who does? YOU? You’re a self serving hypocrite. At least admit it. What player is not?
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Roissy,
when stay-at-home women like anony
Waay off the mark. I’m an emergency physician (part-time) who deals with the fallout of slutty-and-manwhoring-around behavior=suicide threats, STD, depression, drunken fights. At work I must hold my tongue. Here I can lash out.
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Girls will have more integrity when integrity starts causing erections.
Y’all let me know when a woman’s strength, honor, and courage makes you want to shag her silly.
Until then, the span of most women’s honor will remain limited to the space between her thighs…and some not even that deep.
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I think one of the few reasons I read this blog (daily – almost) is, less so for the insights, some of which are quite astute while others tend to be shallow and bewildering (sorry), but primarily for the absolute creative and quality writing. Bravo.. you sir are skilled.
Passages such as this are real gems.
“Occasionally, the poisoned opinions get out there in the ether like slimy tentacles, afflicting every social circle conversation with a brute manipulative face-saving veneer.”
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People often say that women are better than men at social & emotional skills. This ability isn’t always used for good//sometimes people who have good social skills use other people the way someone with good carpentry skills use a piece of wood.
Actually, people with very good social skills may tend to use other people like things more often than people who have decent but not excellent social skills do. Maybe this partly explains why so many women do treat other women badly.
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Roissy has a fondness for the word “nerd,” using it as his generic mindless insult, especially when he was found to be wrong.
Likely because in the context of meeting and scoring with women, being a nerd is just about the worst possible thing.
Peter
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Actually, people with very good social skills may tend to use other people like things more often than people who have decent but not excellent social skills do
Business/Marketing grads. Women can smell their own kind.
Maybe this partly explains why so many women do treat other women badly.
“Some people are forever turning others into resources and calling it ‘seeking friendship.'” — C.S.H.
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vlad:
I think you’re making a mistake here by treating “going to bars” as an either-or.
i’m responding in kind to the premise offered by my detractors. that is, that girls who go to bars are skanks. my either-or counterargument cuts the legs out from under their assumption.
Now, roughly speaking, girls you’ll find in bars/clubs can be divided into three categories relevant for this discussion: (1) girls who came with friends to dance, have a drink, and show off a bit, but generally refuse contact with strangers and make no social connections in bars/clubs as a matter of principle;
there are girls who refuse contact with betas, but that is hardly a matter of principle. in reality, there are very few girls who act on principle. they mostly heed their emotions.
(2) girls who will talk to strangers who approach them skillfully and might perhaps give you their phone number and accept a date invitation afterwards;
plenty of these if you know what you’re doing.
and (3) skanks who let themselves be picked up for one night stands.
these exist. but they are easily and quickly identified by any man with a lick of experience with women. you’ll see these men converge like vultures on the drunk, loose girls giving off blatant and undirected IOIs. also known as garbage hour.
Of course, it’s ridiculous to claim that all girls in bars are in category (3),
i’d peg it around 10%.
and I’ll grant you that there are some very nice girls in category (2).
40%. much lower if you are a beta.
Where you’re making a mistake, however, is when you’re ignoring those in category (1). There are such girls, and they really would never even so much as accept a date offer from someone they just met on a night out.
so certain are you? you’d be surprised what seemingly modest girls will accept if you impress them the right way. anyhow, we’re not talking about instadates, or one night stands. victory with these types of girls could be as simple as a solid number close and a promise to meet again under less contrived conditions.
I agree that the very fact that a girl goes to bars/clubs doesn’t say much about her value, but her willingness to date guys she met there does say something, if only statistically.
this may have been true in the past when meeting women was a more structured affair. work, school, church, family arrangments. today, the bar has become the de facto mixed gender, partner prospecting milieu.
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“The question is whether there are any girls who have the same relationship to the concept of loyalty that men have, i.e. to stick to a person or principle regardless of what you feel like doing at any particular moment in time.”
Don’t be ridiculous — of course there are. But they’ll also be the first ones to kick you to the curb for disloyalty, so you’d better be ready to give exactly what you expect to get.
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Roissy definetely has a point pointing out that men value women who have meaningful and deep relationships with their friends. Wild guess: womans capability for real and genuine friendships is positively correlated with other things men value, such as non-lavish fucking around.
Lemmonex:
“I often feel men just “pass time” with each other and rarely have true, honest, and genuine relationships and that is just as bad.”
Quite the opposite. I think the fact that men can just pass the time, “hang out”, with each other without needing the extravagant reassurances about the solidity of their friendship implicates deep and strong bonding (non-sexual, of course). Unlike men, women are the ones who always, when seeing a friend, are compelled to re-establish the friendship with “ohhh, how lovely to see you!!!” or something like that. Actually, i consider it likely that the more (girl)friends keep hugging and talking about “how good friends we are”, the more probable it is that the friendship in question is shallow and easily broken.
The same goes with conversations via online chatting or text messaging: whereas men communicate informally, women communicate emotionally. For example, i might ask a (male) friend of mine a question like “wanna grab a beer”, and he answers either “sure” or “busy”. When dealing with chumps, men rarely read between the lines. But chicks do. If their meeting is to be cancelled, they must do it in a way that no one get’s emotionally hurt. If the other girl can’t make it, she must always inform why, (decoreting her negative answer with a lavish amount of emoticons), and a new date for their meeting must be established.
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lemmonex – you couldn’t be more wrong. you simply see our bonding over/during activities as passing time, but in fact, men have notoriously more loyalty to one another than women do.
as for the exceptions to the above……occasionally, some slimy slithering male who would fuck the girlfriend of his friend/roomate does burrow his way into a group.
Reality: beneath the skin, he is a gossipping, worthless wretch of the highest order, so sex-starved and/or insecure, that his penis is like that of a female hyena matriarch, only real in appearance…and beneath, he is a female through and through. words like loyalty and friendship he does not comprehend nor understand and once outed, will bounce from group to group ’til the end of his days.
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Roissy,
Have you seen this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/4227575/Beautiful-women-more-likely-to-have-affair-because-of-sex-hormone.html
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roissy:
Yes, but the emotions of natural attraction/repulsion aren’t the only ones. There is also a layer imposed by socialization, and girls brought up in a conservative environment often have very strong feelings for what is proper and improper to do in a particular setting, even if it’s an environment that’s supposed to be all relaxed and fun, and even if it’s contrary to their natural urges. The guilt and shame they’d feel for violating these notions of propriety can be strong enough that for practical purposes, you might as well call them principles according to which they behave. (In fact, inculcating such feelings used to be a required part of female upbringing until a generation or two ago, and it’s still practiced more widely than many people on this blog assume.)
Now, you say:
Well, I wasn’t born yesterday. I know that for many girls, their seeming decency is only a facade that’s easily switched on and off. I also know that no matter how modest and decent a girl is, there is a super-alpha player somewhere who is devilishly charming enough that he could make her break all the norms of behavior she holds dear. I’m nowhere near that status myself, but on occasions, I have enticed girls into things they’d previously thought unimaginable.
However, according to my observations, there are girls who will blow off virtually any man who might realistically approach them on their nights out. It’s like saying that a man is so honest that he would never accept a bribe — of course that every man has his price, but it can be high enough that some men can be rightfully commended like that in practice, even though it’s not quite literally true. Also, an important factor is that their social circles include lots of quality men who themselves have a traditional outlook and offer far better long-term prospects than almost anyone they might meet in a bar (of course, even these men must have some game to accomplish anything).
This is true for large parts of the population nowadays, but by no means for all. There are still plenty of traditionally-minded people who practice old-fashioned ways of meeting partners in more formal social settings — it’s just that, depeding on your family background, interests, and lifestyle, they may well be invisible to you, since they tend to hang out in their own tightly-knit groups and social networks and they’re usually under the radar of the media and pop-culture. Because of this invisibility, you’re probably underestimating the actual number of girls who have qualities that you praise as rare in posts like this one.
(Admittedly, I’ve never been to DC, but I’d bet that the concentration of such traditional folks there is lower than almost anywhere else in North America, so I guess your generalizations might be fairly accurate where you live.)
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Meeting her parents is key. Personality traits are heritable, so what mom and dad are like tells you a lot.
If the parents are sweet, doting, and mellow (anxious is fine, but not frenetic), then you’ve got a keeper. If the mom seems high-strung and has a cocaine social smile, pump and dump.
As always, a digit ratio check is good.
Though many of my tutorees had crushes on me, there was only one who I seriously considered dating. She wasn’t even the best-looking of them (a 7.5 among teenagers, and therefore a 10 among females of any age). Super-feminine digit ratio, green eyes, and Salma Hayek breasts. Not even my ideal body type.
Key moment: at home, she was raving about me to her mom, who must’ve noticed that her daughter had a big crush on her tutor. So one day she stops by to pick her up and requests to meet me — something that rarely happens. She’d brought a bag full of really nice cookies, pastries, etc., from a good bakery, chatted with me and her daughter, and couldn’t have been more easy-going, sweet, and grateful for how well I’d helped her daughter.
This girl even gave me a parting present on our last day — Heathers on DVD. It must’ve taken all the courage she had to unzip her little backpack, draw it out, and hand it over to me. She was 16, nearly 17. Such a sweetheart age.
Don’t forget to meet her parents — at least the mother.
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Roissy, try penis.
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Oh, and she was a lifeguard at an athletic club. Ah, the lifeguard: toned body, strong enough in character, and helpless before her nurturing instincts.
Try to figure out what summer jobs she had when she was younger — if something like lifeguard pops up, you know she can’t be that catty.
“I helped out around my daddy’s law firm” = fling only.
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T.
I think you pretty much summed up the whole male vs. female friendships and social organization thing.
As a friend of mine once said, “Women do not make friendships with each other, they make alliances.” Of course this is a generalization, but I think it is mostly true.
I think what separates the male/female friendship thing the most are the things that drive males and females biologically. It is simplistic but I think generally true. Men tend to feel things much more deeply and in a focused way. Men will sacrifice their lives for things greater than themselves: their families or their countries or their beliefs. Men possess the loyalty towards each other that perhaps goes all the way back to the hunter instinct, the tribe instinct, the strict hierarchy instinct of early societies. If they see a good leader, they will follow without feeling slighted. If they see a bad leader they will want to replace him. But usually it is for the good of something else. Even the worst dictators believed on some level that what they were doing was for the good of some greater cause, however twisted that cause was.
Women have one biological imperative beyond eating and sleeping and staying alive: rearing children. I think so much of their mind set is tied to that, in ways subtle and not so subtle. As Roissy has pointed out, they are more calculating than men, because they have to be. Women bear the burden of pregnancy, childbirth, and a life long commitment and attachment to their children in a way men do not. So they have to be careful in whom they select for mates. I think this mindset spills over into the friendship realm as well. Whatever advances her interests, makes her more likely to care for her children, will play some role in her friendships and social circles. That is the female focus in the end: their children and their ability to bear and raise them properly. Hence it seems that they are always looking out only for themselves in the end.
Again their are many exceptions to this and this is by no means a definitive statement, but I think it is generally true.
It was why men have such a hard time understanding why women do not have the same testosterone driven passion that we do. They cannot afford to. A woman cannot afford to be recklessly passionate the way a man can. Women just love in a different sort of way, which can seem shallow to a lot of men. It is not really shallow for a lot of women, just different from men. I think their love, their deepest love, is ultimately geared towards their children, even more so than towards their mates, at least after they have had children. How else could it be? Uncaring and not at all fiercely protective mothers would have meant the end of the human race a long time ago, or at least the end of its advancement. We still play under those same rules today.
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DeCaelis:
Generally true, but the genes of men are just as selfish as the genes of women. The reason men have built-in genes for long-term alliances and a keen awareness of hierarchies and a mind toward building coalitions (as well as planning out assaults on the coalitions of other males, be they rival corporations or enemy armies), is because it is in their genetic interest to do so. None of us operate outside the bounds of genetics, as I’m sure you don’t disagree. Just putting a finer point on it.
In the ancestral environment it’s smarter for a woman to just protect herself; she will have no shortage of potential mates. Her physical attractiveness is her major asset for getting a high-quality male, and only secondarily will her reputation/social status/family connections factor in. But a man who protects himself and does not take risks will miss out on reproduction altogether. He must do something to validate himself with other men and with women; he must achieve something. The drive to do this leads to more male violence and more male criminals, but also more male organizers, more male political leaders, and more male captains of industry. In the ancestral environment being physically huge and a good fighter was one way to get access to mates. Another way, more common in our species, is to be a loyal friend, a good organizer, a reliable lieutenant. It’s just another evolutionary strategy for passing down our genes.
Not knowing what it’s like to be a woman and to value these things more cheaply, I can only say (as my genes have programmed me to say), I am glad I’m a man and can find deep and lasting value in these things. Of course women feel and understand these concepts, just as men feel and understand love of their own children. But our commitment to loyalty is deeper in our nature, just as a woman’s bond with her child is deeper in hers.
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Your post just now illustrates exactly why I find the idea of feminist women being the majority almost impossible to accept. While there may be some who genuinely stand up for their gender, there are a lot who will turn on other women (e.g. “that fat whore”) for their choices.
I have heard with my very own ears a — let us delicately say *politely in the stereotypical gossipy tone that you roissy so adore* — very sexually active woman who said she HATED feminism. If it weren’t for supposedly feminist sexual liberation, she’d be on-her-third-child/stoned/stuck with her first guy. Yet, she violently hates anti-feminism; a self-confessed woman-hater. Maybe, she thinks all women are like her (ah, look, my stereotypical bitchy tone here too!).
There was also an article within an American newspaper (the Guardian, perhaps?) where a woman declared that all women were dumb.
Notice the reason WHY she turned on another woman in your example (namley, your diverted attention). There’s a very persuasive theory that the competing for male attention is the reason why loyalty is less prevalent within the female community. Perhaps being beautiful and getting highest quality male attention is traditionally seen as the primary role of a woman, which is a bit different from the expectation of men?
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I have been a reader for awhile now and I have to say your writing piques my interest. It is interesting to see the POV of a guy. I guess it is so surreal to me because I would never dream of being half as pompous as some of the girls you describe on here ( I guess that is the difference of me not growing up in a huge city such as DC and probably because I am just shy of 19 ).
I am not the most outgoing girl, I am when I want to be, but not because I am ugly or not completely confident in myself. I have plenty of confidence and I know what I think about myself and generally how others think of me. I guess I just have more respect for myself as a person and the people around me to act as if I am Gods gift to men. Confidence is hot, over-confidence is annoying.
Girls or guys who treat anyone, not just their friends, like this are flakes and deserve little respect. I understand the occasional snide comment…from anyone, like you said, it’s human nature.
Yes, being sexy is great and being outgoing has its time and place, but like you have said on other posts, personality plays an important role in actual relationships not just hook ups. Sexy + sweet = +10…haha.
I guess there is a different “breed” of girls, and ones that I don’t care to be friends with.
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After all , it was Eve that caused Man’s downfall from paradise.
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anony is a hot tranny mess
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The fact that so much of Roissy’s “game” and the whole PUA movement is focused solely on the grungy bar/club scene is downright sad – it is clear that America needs much better places to congregate for mating instead of these generally terrible and pathetic places.
In short, the pathetic bar/club scene is just another symptom of American decline…a way for people to try and escape the misery of a culture in crisis through superficial hookups.
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“JC
After all , it was Eve that caused Man’s downfall from paradise.”
It’s funny but true. Men where happiest being hunters, it was for our women and children that we became farmers.
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I would not blame women for the loss of the Garden of Eden. More like the end of the Ice Age (it’s clearly like the Flood an oral memory of a lost, warm garden-like land, inundated by the rising waters).
Masculinist — where else would a young man search for women?
They are NOT amenable to being approached in volunteer groups, activity groups, church, etc. Most of the time they have a boyfriend in tow, or a gaggle of girlfriends, and are very MUCH not in the mood to be approached.
That’s the harvest of a society that has huge mobility, personal physical and social, and anonymous urban living. See the movie “Crossing Delancy” for a good exploration (excepting the trite ending) on why women ignore their grandmothers matchmaking advice to chase after Alpha PUA.
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Read the book by Howard Bloom called – The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History
Bloom writes ….. Men were designed to lead short brutal lives. Women were designed to lead long miserable ones.
LOL
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Guys aren’t any better. They are just as slimy and status-seeking as women, 9 times out of 10.
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Don’t believe me? Well how about the fact that 20-30% of kids aren’t even the father’s and the wife usually knows this ugly truth but keeps it secret till the kid is grown up. Meaning that the father was tricked into providing resources for another man’s offspring.
bullshit. paranoid fantasies. As I’ve said before the real figure from actual studies is something like 2 to 4 percent.
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Women have more fake friends than men do and also more real friends. They’re more social generally.
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@ Dukie on January 15, 2009 at 12:28 pm
…or you don’t.
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Interesting post, Roissy! Had to stop and REALLLLLY think about this one.
I really like how there’s always (actually, not always) a teeny itsy bitsy part of you that shines through your posts! It’s nice!! 🙂
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This is a bit off-topic, but some of the comments about women (like Agnostic’s) got me thinking about the personal ads I see on Match.com. I’m not a member, I just browse. I wanted to give everyone an example of what’s out there. Roissy — if posting excerpts from personals is a legal hazard, just delete this:
“I’m looking for someone very much like myself in many ways–an outdoor enthusiast who is motivated, hard-working, well-traveled, has a graduate degree, charismatic, slender, modest, clean-cut, and fun. No smokers, kids, snorers, divorcees, superficial or self-absorbed people, please. Also, if you write anything as generic as ‘coffee or a newspaper on a Sunday afternoon,’ I will not respond.”
This is a 30-year-old, mind you and that’s just a segment of her demands. Not a bad looking woman, but really…
(PS — Some of us should get together and put together a site where we review personals like CDs. We’d make money and bring the dating services down!)
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@ 11minutes
There are plenty of girls who have loyalty and not all of us are attracted to “alphas”. In fact, thinking about dating an “alpha” makes my stomach turn, and especially if he thought of himself that way. ( I am not a feminist by any means ) Were always going to be tempted, but that doesn’t mean give into to them. Those girls who do, really don’t have much respect for themselves than.
It honestly makes me sad to think that an “alpha” thinks that he OR she can have anyone that he/she wants. I would never, and I repeat never be unfaithful to my boyfriend and if the thought ever crossed my mind that I didn’t want to be with him anymore, I would be up front and do the right thing. I mean I am not naive to think that my guy doesn’t fantasize or even look at other girls, hell I encourage it, its healthy nature…for both parts of a couple.
Yes, I love sex just like every other female/male out there, if not more, but that doesn’t mean I am going to sex it up with every guy out there. That’s what a loyal relationship is there for…although they are hard to find, trust me I know.
Honestly, yes us good natured girls are a lot less outgoing, but that doesn’t mean were not outgoing behind closed doors. Just because I may not work “the magic” on every guy doesn’t mean I can’t work it for my guy.
There are good girls out there, were not all bad…just like guys…there are plenty of good and bad guys out there. just sometimes the good guys/girls aren’t the ones you want..consequently its hard to find that good guy/girl that has everything – looks ( yes it is important, not shallow…but you have to be attracted ), personality, loyalty, brains ( rare ) …etc.
Not harping…just giving my opinion ❤
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“For all the jabbering they do amongst themselves, the bonds that hold girl friends together are a surprisingly superficial amalgam of Machiavellian maneuvering, parched politesse, feigned sympathy, self-absorbed clucking, and fickle loyalty.”
Masterful.
Women are master courtiers. It is probably their need to feel part of a group conflicting with their need to get an elbow up in the hierarchy over their female peers.
There is a theory that variety in hair and eye color arose in an ice age environment in Europe when the gathering of women failed to be effective and for a time hunting took precedence as the primary source of calories for the indigenous peoples. As such, men, by providing access to food were competed for by the women creating a crucible of variation in natural ornamentation. Like peacocks competing for mates with the most spectacular tail, women developed more neotenic features and unique melanin schemes.
Despite the popular conception, when you consider the degree to which women engage in ornamentation and enhancement today, it is obvious who the sex with the final say is. High caliber men do the choosing, attracting women like the siren’s croak of the largest bullfrog in the pond. Beta’s in denial are like the small frogs accosting the females in the eternal hope of scoring while she fights her way to the alpha bull. The big swinging dick.
Women consequently are torn by the eternal dissonance of need for a sense of belonging to the group, and the need to advantage their genomes over those of the other women by competing, ultimately, for the genetic jackpot of an alpha son.
Worse, invariably women have an inflated opinion of their appeal, or that of their fugly friends when they have at best moderate dating capital. By the same token they denigrate the dating capital of the truly exceptional women, dismissing them as sluts or bitches or whatever when they subconsciously recognize their superior appeal.
I know when I have hit the jackpot with a woman when each couple we walk by consists of a gaga guy staring and a jealous woman sneering and dragging him past. Nothing pleases me more; I live for it.
http://alphadominance.com/?p=554
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They are NOT amenable to being approached in volunteer groups, activity groups, church, etc. Most of the time they have a boyfriend in tow, or a gaggle of girlfriends, and are very MUCH not in the mood to be approached.
Whiskey I know from personal experience that you are full of shit . You obviously haven’t approached many women in these situations or if you have you must be doing something else seriously wrong to creep them out. These are nothing but what PUAs call “limiting beliefs.” If you believe it is creepy to approach girls in these places then it will be creepy. It’s not the place, it’s not the group of girlfriends, it’s you.
Regarding churches, there are always one or two in a metro area that cater to students and young professionals. Make the effort to find them.
It is my personal experience that women _love_ being approached in the day. Its one of their fantasies. PUA Cajun agrees with me.
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Yes, but the ultimate fault was Adam’s. After all, in the story who did God punish? He punished Adam, not Eve. Why? Because despite the fact she tempted him, he was the man and was supposed to lead and know better. He basically failed the world’s first ever shit test in the story and mankind suffered for it ever since.
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“one of the key indicators… is what she thinks of her friends”
Roissy, thank you for your writing. You make me appreciate and cherish my woman.
“It’s all part of doing business as a DNA carrying replicant.”
I lament that your DNA has yet to be passed on, as far as we know anyway. Unfortunately, your genes might be eliminated from the population by modern birth control technology. And if your DNA has been passed on, it’s apparently divorced from your parenting style, which is a pity, because kids are not as straightforward to turn out (and not as similar one-to-another) as frozen pizzas. Please, if you ever breed, keep writing.
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And then some girls dont need, want or hafto put their girlfriends down. For any reason. They actually like their girlfriends and want whats best for them. Even behind closed doors.
It happens. Real girls who are secure in what they have. Who dont hafto put anyone down to make themselves feel better.
Crazy notion huh? 🙂 Your posts fascinate me. Keep it up…..
Makes me smile with that which you notice and pick up on~
😉
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Peter wrote: “Likely because in the context of meeting and scoring with women, being a nerd is just about the worst possible thing.”
Nerd and geek imply a strong aptitude in a specialized field, often at the expense of a social life. If you’re familiar with the now largely settled feud between the old and new school baseball writers, the latter were often branded stat-geeks. An insult for certain, but one that pays respect to the new ground they broke in using statistical analysis to better understand in the engine of baseball.
Dork is far, far worse than nerd or geek, because dorks are antisocial and lack any sort of specialized excellence. Think Booger from revenge of the nerds in real life. The rest of the Tri Lambs would likely have gone through college as virgins, as Booger would have, but at least they’d avoid working at the 7-11 in their thirties. (Though, Booger seems like the type who would get laid by dropping his standards far below what any of the nerds and geeks would have).
You’ll see guys use this same language when talking about cute nerd girls. Or cute geeky girls. But never, ever cute dorky girls. Dork is the kiss of death.
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Nerd and geek imply a strong aptitude in a specialized field, often at the expense of a social life. If you’re familiar with the now largely settled feud between the old and new school baseball writers, the latter were often branded stat-geeks.
Being geeky or nerdy about baseball is more acceptable than similar behavior about, for example, sci-fi or WoW, because baseball is, after all, a sport. I’ll also bet that the average baseball stats geek is considerably more social and well-adjusted than the typical Star Trek or comic book nerd.
Peter
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Pfft, Booger woulda tore house in real life with that weed hookup.
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the breakdown of male and female intragender friendship is about the breakdown of TRUST period in our culture more than anything.
all friendships are suffering today because of the constant competition for mates and no fault divorce. when ppl married for life young in a culture that frowned on even “fault” divorce, women could become very intensely friendly with other women and also knew that prevailing culture would NEVER allow those women to be alone with their man–and vice versa. today, your wife or husband may leave you for no reason and jump right into the bed of that “friend” (who spent so many hours in your home) without batting an eye. add to that the nonjudgmentalism forced on us by the gyneocracy and they won’t even have any consequences for doing this…like shunning or even a “bad reputation”.
homosexuality has been added into this mix for men. anything associated with homosexuality will be rejected by straight men. historically men didn’t have to worry that their best friend would suddenly reveal a long held gay crush on them after developing years of trust. well, there goes close male association at all.
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Don’t believe me? Well how about the fact that 20-30% of kids aren’t even the father’s and the wife usually knows this ugly truth but keeps it secret till the kid is grown up. Meaning that the father was tricked into providing resources for another man’s offspring.
bullshit. paranoid fantasies. As I’ve said before the real figure from actual studies is something like 2 to 4 percent.
Keep dreaming. Here’s the sad truth:
“our data suggest that roughly 13% to 20% of children are not the offspring of their putative father. Parallel estimates derived from a German population are 9% to 17%. These estimates agree rather closely and are within the range of estimates compiled by Baker and Bellis (1995), who report paternal discrepancies between 1.4% and 30% with a median of 9%.”
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Good point Dana. The decline of traditional gender roles has been shown to be correlated with the decline of marriage. It’s the unfortunate price we pay for the androgenization of western society.
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Tiffany said:
There are plenty of girls who have loyalty and not all of us are attracted to “alphas” … Were always going to be tempted, but that doesn’t mean give into to them.
So not all girls are attracted to alphas but they will always be tempted by them? Very telling.
I would never, and I repeat never be unfaithful to my boyfriend
Nobody ever plans on doing such a thing. Have you ever heard anyone say the opposite? Yet it “happens”. Quite a lot. Of course it is always just other people who do bad things. Or if it happened there was a good reason. Or just a bunch of drinks.
I am just shy of 19
You are just starting to make your experiences. You will get to know yourself better with time
That’s what a loyal relationship is there for…although they are hard to find, trust me I know.
Yeah. 80% of men are nice, sweet guys who never cheat on girls because
a) they are so nice they would rather cry
b) they are not attractive to other girls
yet, it is hard to find a loyal relationship for you.
And you are not attracted to assholes, right?
Honestly, yes us good natured girls are a lot less outgoing, but that doesn’t mean were not outgoing behind closed doors.
Read my story again!. I know girls like you. I had enough experience with your kind to realize there is no such thing as bad or good natured girls when it comes to sex. There is just girls. And part of being a girl is getting the hots for the studs paired with the tendency to be overwhelmed by and act upon emotions, whether or not you have a sweet lovey dovey boyfriend or not.
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Keep dreaming. Here’s the sad truth.
MQ is right on this one. There are lots of men out there raising other peoples children, but the only about 2% of cases are they truly deceived.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/04/paternity-confidence-paper-finally.php
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@ 11 minutes
Good points!
So not all girls are attracted to alphas but they will always be tempted by them? Very telling.
I should have clarified, all guys in general, I’m sorry. I am one of the first people to say, of course I look at different guys, it’s human nature ( but I can also realize when other girls are attractive and admit it ) I don’t think all parts of the “alpha” personalities are bad, like I said confidence is hot. Just mix that in with the player like attitude and I don’t want a guy like that, but hey, everyone has their preferences.
Yet it “happens”. Quite a lot.
Very true, things happen and quite easily. I would hope to think that I have enough self control to avoid that though. Where drinks are concerned, that should make most girls ( who get completely trashed, especially in a bar atmosphere ) more self aware —but I know that this doesn’t usually happen and is not the case.
And you are not attracted to assholes, right?
I put a fine line between asshole behavior and cocky behavior, cockiness can be good – but when it leads to asshole territory and stays there…I just don’t think I am attracted to that. Now like you said, I have plenty of room for more experiences and I can only give what I think of right now.
Read my story again!
I have read some of your blog and I really do like reading it. It is interesting seeing things from a different POV. I guess it makes me more aware of how girls think so differently, yet so in line with guys, if that makes sense.
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MQ is right on this one. There are lots of men out there raising other peoples children, but the only about 2% of cases are they truly deceived.
Nope. You guys are both in the wrong, because
“None of these studies come from random samples. The nature of these studies … will bias the samples toward men with high paternity confidence because men who do not believe they have fathered their putative children will be less likely to participate in the research.”
The number I provided (above 10%) is from a non-biased study, and it is consistent with the rates for unknown paternity confidence in the very paper you linked to (Table 3 on p. 516):
US 10-30%
This is right in between the non-paternity rates for high paternity confidence families (~2%) and the certainly biased rates revealed in DNA paternity tests instigated by men who question fatherhood (~50%).
I know this may be hard to swallow for some of you married guys, but it might be a relief that the number is low when paternity confidence is low.
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11minutes:
You are a fucking moron.
The study you linked to says the following:
This survey of published estimates of nonpaternity suggests that for men with high paternity confidence, nonpaternity rates are typically 1.7% (if we exclude studies of unknown methodology) to 3.3% (if we include such studies).
The paper says exactly what I said. People who think their kids are theirs are right 98% of the time.
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Sometimes I’ll be reading Roissy in DC, Roosh’s Blog and VK and things seem a bit depressing. It’s almost like the comedian that figures out the joke that’ll make the audience laugh but doesn’t feel like telling it cuz he’s lost respect for his audience.
A friend of mine said it best “When women are sweet, they’re really sweet. When they’re fucked up, they’re really fucked up”.
Here’s the dilemma.
The more I learn and practice Game, the less I seem to respect women. It’s like supply and demand. More supply available, my demand and willingness to pay whatever price goes down. Is too much abundance a bad thing?
Can you fully enjoy a woman, really accept her faults, and continue to respect her if you’ve ‘figured it out/cracked the code’?
I’ve got no problems with pulling a girl for sex and enjoying it, it just seems to have lost some of it’s spark cuz it came so easily. Is it the case of always needing a bigger hit to reach the same high?
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Ethan, you may have developed a tolerance to women and perhaps taking a break would be more effective than increasing the dosage? Abstinence increases enjoyment!
If you do most of your scoping out at clubs/bars, the females there are usually there to have ‘fun’, some sort of ‘experience’, isn’t it? Maybe varying the ‘Game’ to check out how it works in different contexts might help you out there.
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@Thursday – As a scientist I know the need for “selling” a paper. The spin here is that the previous estimates were too high.
So rather than just blindly taking the authors’ spiel for granted, I actually read the paper and found its weak spot:
high paternity confidence
In the age of DNA testing, it may well be that these men simply knew they were the actual dads. As I quoted from the paper – uncertain men did not participate in the study.
Your initial post was not about men who have such confidence – it was about the rate at which paternity theft happens. Obviously, the number will be higher for the broader population.
Most men do not have high paternity confidence. This does not mean that they question their paternity (this part of the population is the low confidence part of the study and yields a whopping 50% nonpaternity). It simply means, they are not really certain. Check out the other study I linked to, and you can see that this trickles down to measurable behavioral effects.
So, the only group in this study that is of relevance to the general population is the one with undetermined paternity confidence. And for these people – the nonpaternity rate is 10%!
The authors point out methodological flaws in these studies, and that is of great concern. But paternity studies are hard to perform unbiased, since there is quite a bit of social stigma and financial and psychological damage associated with bad revelations. Hence, random sampling is key. And this simply was not the case here.
the other study I linked to used second order relatives in order to ensure unbiased random sampling since parents with low paternity confidence often reduce to participate in the study. Hence, it may be closer in revealing what is going on – and again the rate is about 10%.
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In the age of DNA testing, it may well be that these men simply knew they were the actual dads.
You are fantasizing. The much, much simpler explanation is that the kid looks like them and they are married to women who have demonstrated their general honesty and trustworthiness. Those two factors greatly decrease the possiblity that the kid is not your own.
Your initial post was not about men who have such confidence – it was about the rate at which paternity theft happens.
You obviously can’t read.
Most men do not have high paternity confidence.
And you know this how? The paper you cite makes an estimate the 75% of men have high paternity confidence. That seems about right for me from my own observations and also for the reasons I gave above. And such confidence will rise as their and their wives intelligence rises. Really, among middle and upper-middle class people there aren’t a lot of cuckoo eggs being laid.
And you have also completely missed the main point that there are not a lot of men out there who are having the wool pulled over their eyes. If they aren’t sure if the child is theirs, then by definition they haven’t been deceived.
I stand by my assessement of you as a moron.
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“I didn’t appreciate it. This was evidence that my date was a woman of poor character.
Some months later we broke up”
Whoa! Way to lay the hammer down, dude! Where was that a-hole game you’ve been talking about?
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“You used the phrase “female status hierarchies”. there is no such thing.
Pagillia wrote about this. Women do not naturally create hierarchies. We create round-and-around networks. Tightly knitted networks. Ex: the women in charge of any fundraising effort will always choose a co-chairwoman, a co-president, co-exect. Men naturally accept a single leader. Women share leadership –when they have the choice.”
You do realize that the very conception of leadership precludes any possibility of it being “shared,” right?
/rhetorical question
What you are actually suggesting is that enterprises dominated by women tend to be leaderless…
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“A girls’s urge to feed her ego and take the measure of her sexual market value is intense, and bars are perfectly suited for maximum assuaging and feedback.”
By your own words, you imply that girls who are most in need of that assuaging and feedback will spend more time in bars.
So there’s round one of selection bias.
Now for round two of selection bias – According to you and any other rational PUA, you are talking to many, many women, and out of the many women you approach, a small percentage ends up in your bed. This is fine; if you want many casual partners, it makes sense to cast a wide net.
But for the purposes of general inference about the female population, you suffer a huge selection effect. By definition, you are bedding only those women who are most responsive to your particular approach, and those women are a small percentage of the women you do approach. You end up spending the most time with women who fit your model of female behavior, because those are the women you attract, because you base your behavior on that model of female behavior.
So even if your model has merit, you overrate its strength among the general female population. Those females who deviate most from your model didn’t give you much time, because your behavior is calibrated on the model.
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ethan
I’ve got no problems with pulling a girl for sex and enjoying it, it just seems to have lost some of it’s spark cuz it came so easily. Is it the case of always needing a bigger hit to reach the same high?
Yes, Ethan. When you’re using women like an addictive drug, that’s what you’ll be embarking on. It’s the same for them, only at least three times worse. With the advent of the pill, women don’t have the fear of pregnancy, but the body still thinks quite it may be pregnant from sex and even if they don’t want to they “fall in love” (become adhered to) whomever had their dick in them last. Of course this is not always the case. Have you noticed this?
It’s a strong woman who can overcome her own biology and fuck like any man, but many “modern” women have to keep finding out the hard way that it is generally not possible to fuck around and avoid tons of heartache and drama. At least that is the case for normal healthy feminine women. If you want a “good” woman, be a “good” man; a man you’d want your daughters to marry if you ever had one.
OR play roissy’s game of fuck around till you’re 80 years old, smell funny and use Viagra to keep it up for seven hours with 25 year olds. Good luck!
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The much, much simpler explanation is that the kid looks like them and they are married to women who have demonstrated their general honesty and trustworthiness.
I was exaggerating for didactic purposes. Nicely caught.
Your initial post was not about men who have such confidence – it was about the rate at which paternity theft happens.
You obviously can’t read.
“truly deceived”. I see what you did there.
But you got a point…
And you know this how? The paper you cite makes an estimate the 75% of men have high paternity confidence.
Depends on the definition of “high confidence”, and still leaves a fourth of the population with a high cuckoldry rate. Hence the number these authors postulate for SWPL will be lower than that for the entire population.
That was my entire point.
I stand by my assessement of you as a moron.
actually, fucking moron was closer to the truth.
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Thursday:
Exactly so. Among the people whose parents I know, both men and women tend to resemble their fathers (and even their paternal grandfathers) blatantly and strikingly. It’s similar with the faces of celebrities and politicians. Considering how obvious and striking this resemblance usually is, I don’t think that cuckolding rates can be very high.
A few years ago, I got a haircut similar to the one my father always has. Later that day, I walked by a mirror and it seemed to me for a moment that he just passed by — before I realized that I’d just caught a glimpse of my own reflection. It happened to me a few more times in the following few days, before I got used to my new look. It was only then that I realized how similar in appearance we actually are.
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What’s good people,
Once again, Roissy hits the nail on the head with laser-guided precision. Having just returned from the field for a night of observing Social Dynamics at work for the benefit of a new friend and future wing of mine, Sparks, I can say, based on that and my own extensive experience of observing Women over the years, that what Roissy has said is accurate well into the upper 90% area. Indeed, the very concept of a “Wingman” in Game is proof of what Roissy states here with regard to the profound differences between Men and Women and how they go about forming and maintaining friendships and to what ends. Word.
I must prepare for the arrival of Brown Sugah, as we have “Round Two” planned, but I plan to file a Field Report that I hope my fellow Brothers in the Game will find most helpful on the morrow. Please let me also say that I humbly apologize for being out of the loop for so long this week. Mercury Retrograde struck a bit too close to home this time around.
The Obsidian
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ironrailsironweights
Because we want hot, nubile sex goddesses, not chicks with clits bigger than Roissy’s dick.
You mean more than two inches long?
Peter
*DEAD*
Ice cold
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DecaelisIt was why men have such a hard time understanding why women do not have the same testosterone driven passion that we do
Thank you thank you thank you. Why do so many men have a problem with a woman being a woman? We are not men. Our thinking and reasoning are different. Get over it if you think women should be more like men.
Amandaanony is a hot tranny mess so he writes a post about catty females with malicous tongues and look what walks through the door.
Masculinist
The fact that so much of Roissy’s “game” and the whole PUA movement is focused solely on the grungy bar/club scene is downright sad – it is clear that America needs much better places to congregate for mating instead of these generally terrible and pathetic places.
In short, the pathetic bar/club scene is just another symptom of American decline…a way for people to try and escape the misery of a culture in crisis through superficial hookups.
Excellent point. When I go to the bar, I’m going for a drink. A daquiry(if they have it),osmo or johnny walker red and coke.
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anony
Why does the venue of recreation never appear in the dialogues here? The venue is always clubs and bars. Why not running club, masters swim club, biking club, kyaking group, sailing group, cross-country ski group?
Excellent point Anony? The reason could be because many of the men who visit this cite aren’t much into sports. I would imagine if a guy changed pick up locations he would find a better variety of women.
Debra Messing-pretty
She is, red heads are underrated in this country. Since red hair is more rare than blonde, shouldn’t red heads get more attention? Where are the charts noting the year when Red heads will cease to exist. Add Angie Everheart & model Brazilian model Cintia Dicker to the list of gorgeous red heads.
a_c
Roissy has a fondness for the word “nerd,” using it as his generic mindless insult, especially when he was found to be wrong. It’s an interesting tic, and worth keeping an eye on. Don’t worry, nerds are cool. Think Kayne West, Mo Rocha, and Chic Noir
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*cosmo or johnny walker red&coke*
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> Listen to what she says about her friends when it’s just you and her. This will give you tremendous insight into how she will treat you over the long haul.
This. You’re spot on mate.
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11minutes, “high paternity confidence” in these studies just means the men are married and have no particular reason to doubt paternity (e.g. they do not know that their wife is cheating on them). This is exactly the group that you are making your claims about — you’ve been saying that 20%+ of unknowing men in traditional marriages are raising kids not their own!
“Low paternity confidence” is people who sought out testing specifically because they suspect the kid is not theirs. Even in those samples, the non-paternity rates are just 30%!
Also, the study you cite in support of your contention doesn’t appear to use genetic testing at all, instead there’s some weird hypothethesis about investment by relatives as a supposed indicator of paternity. It’s hard to judge that study because the text of the study itself is not available on the web, just the abstract.
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Well, as a female, I’ll tell you… you’ve hit the nail right on the head. It is for reasons that you stated that I will never, ever go out of my way to make friends with another girl. I have zounds of guy friends… probably because I find them more trustworthy and honest than all the little skanks that want nothing more than do go shoe-shopping and then rub all over my boyfriend’s dick the second I turn away. I have one true female friend, and as far as I know, we don’t really have the catty friendship problem. Her girlfriends, however, are a different story…
I guess I’m just happier in life being the guy’s girl, watching football and putting back beers. That said, I /do/ take the time to make myself look good like any other self-respecting girl would… but I just can’t see myself ever really having a large collection of devious, conniving bitch friends. I’m better off with my “homeboys”. 🙂
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for those who perchance caught last week’s Tool Academy episode, more proof that women disavow any sort of discernible friendship: on the show, a guy was revealed to have a 6 yr girlfriend in addition to the one he was currently on the show with…..he tells the newer girlfriend that his 6 yr girlfriend is in effect the one he wants and replaces her for the duration of filming the TV show. The other girlfriend’s of tools are cold and callous to the new girlfriend/replacement as though she is the one in the wrong somehow for having beeen also duped by this tool. wow. logic?
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The less female friend a female has, should be an alarm bell for every guy. This girl dont get along with other girls because she cannot be real friend!
I never talked bad about my friends. I adore them.
But I do attack some girls and i do have bad words like “what a fat cow” in my head,,,,,meanwhile i am not pretending to like the girl either. I dont want to be dishonest and say i like her her when i obviously dont!
And contrary to belief, guys also backtalk. Every time i fancied a guy i might date, and asked my male friends about him, they usually say that the guy is a d-bag!
Certainly and unfortunately, if you are a nice girl, to nice, you will be run over fast. I am trying to strive for being nice but not stupid.
And for the mean girlfriend topic i just have to tell: To be naive when a girl hits on your boyfriend is a mistake, to spread false rumours about the flirting girl is mean and indicates your personality, unfortunately even to mention to the guy that that girl is up to no good makes them think you are the mean one and the other the victim… bad circle, Why is the guy so nice to the other girl, seemingly having a great evening while you nervously sit there and cannot do anything really. Guys certainly, if you reply on a girl that is flirting with you in front of your girlfriend of course she will be pissed. So dont pretend as it would be the girlfriend that is mean but take a look at yourself and your behaviour instead. Maybe you are not so intrested in your girlfriend and time to move on,,,
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Biktopia… it’s kind of hard to wade through the shit you’re saying.
So, am I untrustworthy because I’d rather have guy friends than put up with all the petty drama bullshit that goes on in girl world? I don’t really see myself as a bad person or a poor example of a female because I don’t partake in shoe shopping and gossip.
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Hey legends live on.
I say, why are you only being able to be friends with guys? what is it that makes you so bitter against females?
I dont know how life is in US ,, im from Sweden/hungary living in Hungary.
I love talk about shoes, and of course there is dramas. but also The guys have dramas, they talk more dirty and nasty then girls, about girls.
Guys are not always just nice and fair and easy going.
I dont want to sound to feminist but im sure i will right know, but guys are not to be trusted 🙂 They manipulate as well, in the end, its about having good friends which you can find in both guys and girls, for me, if you cant find friendship with a woman, it mean that something is wrong in your personality, im sorry.
Drama bullshit is not connected to gender, rather, its connected to superficial people.
I love my male friends and it hurts what i will write about them now, because its only the half truth, they are magical most of the moments, but,
I have great girlfriends and guyfriends but never ever did a male guy give me a good advice concerning my relationships. with some guys, i feel, there is an imbalance, my male friends are very concerned with what guy i date, in all honesty, i know that its because that particular male friend probably likes me more then they admit,,, If it was up to some of my male friends, i should live in celibacy if a handsome and succesful guys would ask me out. They have no problems recommending me less attractive nerdy guys though.
I could really go on for a long time here about male conspiracy, friends of my male friends have been c–k blocked to many times, i know that if i really like someone i dont care whatever anyone says because my male friends would give me an advice based on their own gain/benefit and losses. Whereas my girlfriends would be more romantic in their approach.
Undersigned: Had to much to drinks tonight, B
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[…] Well she’s easy (shaming, slut reference), BH: Hey!!! RH: I’m a little harder to please (shit […]
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