Let’s assume for the purposes of this post that this exchange between Mickey Rourke and Jericho on Larry King wasn’t staged. (I don’t know one way or the other.)
Which man is the bigger alpha?
“Have a good night, son.”
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Tough call.
I’d go with Rourke. Jericho’s willingness to scrap is alpha, but he definitely loses points for being pissed off over some really insignificant shit (come on, dude, it’s not like he boned your sister and didn’t call her again; get over it). Rourke brushes it off and ignores him, like Jericho isn’t even in his league, aside from casually implying that he’d whip Jericho’s ass in a boxing match.
You can take it as Rourke being scared to fight Jericho. Sounds to me more like Rourke thinks Jericho isn’t even worth taking a few minutes out of his day to kick his ass.
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Rourke is 6 wins 2 draws and 0 losses in the boxing ring. However, Larry King has been married 9 times. Tough call.
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I’d like to see that fight. I suspect that Jericho would win, being the younger man, but you never know. He sure did get bent out of shape over Mickey Rourke’s comments though. It seems like the more “alpha” reaction to a man in his 50s talking smack for effect at his movie’s premier would be to say “sure pal, whatever gets you through the night”. Not to challenge him to a fight on national tv.
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Rourke. He establishes a strong frame, doesn’t get rattled and demonstrates control of his emotions. By staying polite he also shows social dominance and tact.
The bigger and stronger man doesn’t always win.
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Guys, it’s staged. A little over 9 weeks until Wrestlemania, Rourke mentions on TV that he’s been “approached” about Wrestlemania (which translates to already signed a deal to do it), and says he’d like to take on Jericho. Then this happens on Larry King. Next step is for Rourke to pop up at one of the WWE TV airings and ambush Jericho. Then over the course of the 9 weeks leading up to the Wrestlemania they ramp up the storyline. This is just the start.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/wrestling/blog/2009/01/rourke_jericho_on_larry_king.html
They did this with celebs like Andy Kaufman, Cindy Lauper, Mr. T and Pete Rose in the past.
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When it comes to alphas in wrestling, there’s no one finer… than Scott Steiner.
In this pairing, Jericho is the alpha. He sits back, relaxed, with his head at a noticeable angle, a ‘contrapposto’ of sorts. He does not posture to prevent aggression from his opponent because he does not believe he can be challenged. Rourke fidgets in his seat and looks away from Larry and the camera, even looking down at some points. His leaning toward the camera is the equivalent to flaring his lats in a pretend-relaxed pose at the bar. Jericho’s been acting the role of alpha for so many years in his life that he’s come to believe it as fact. Rourke’s intelligence and calculation is betrayed by his humility and politeness; he cedes dominance to the younger man.
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“Rourke is 6 wins 2 draws and 0 losses in the boxing ring. However, Larry King has been married 9 times. Tough call.”
Thras, I think this entry from Carre Otis’s Wikipedia page is all you need to answer that one:
“She was briefly a cause célèbre following the release of Wild Orchid due to rumors she and then-lover Mickey Rourke filmed an unsimulated sex scene. She married Rourke in 1992. In 1994 Rourke was arrested for spousal abuse. The charges were dropped after the couple reconciled.[3] They divorced in 1998.”
Videotaping sex with your supermodel girlfriend? Alpha. Beating your supermodel wife? Alpha. Getting her to drop the charges? Alpha.
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It’s staged. I recall Jericho leaving Wrestling for a while and making fun of celebrities on VH1’s “Best Week Ever,” and for a while he was a member of LA’s “Groundlings” improv comedy troupe.
This is definitely staged, Jericho being the consumate “heel” who will play the bad guy against good-guy Rourke (an older, time-ravaged man).
Jericho is funny, I recall his skewering of Goldberg (he wrestled a midget called “Gillberg” who came out with sparklers) and had some funny quips on “Best Week Ever.”
T. AKA Ricky Raw is correct — this is leading up to Wrestlemania. Where in real life, Jericho will likely do his best to avoid hurting Rourke while making the fight look good.
As for who is more socially dominant — easy it’s Jericho, who was pretty restrained here (none of his trademark quips and jabs to get under a guy’s skin and play up to the audience at the same time). He’s been playing that guy for a long time, essentially an exaggerated sense of his self (as the best wrestlers do). Rourke is a good actor but absent a script he’s ill-at-ease. Jericho is the king of improv, night after night, in various different realms.
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Assuming it’s not staged, which it is, Mickey is the alpha. Jericho talks too god-damned much, and he immediately starts talking about his stature. Mickey is understated, but ultimately knows that outside of a wrestling ring the guy is an idiot with frosted tips.
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That was great. My ratings? Two alphas accomplishing different goals. One trying to “start a fight” and the other trying to “avoid a fight”.
And no shit this was “staged”(on Jericho’s part).
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I was a big time wrestling fan in my early teens and I used to love Jericho’s promos. So I may be a little biased.
Rourke appears to be leaning foward at times, which is known as “pecking” in the community. That would imply a lack of confidence. Jericho is sitting upright and setting the tone of the conversation. I’d say 95% of the time, the person who’s setting the tone of the conversation is the more alpha figure.
Rourke is overly supplicating to Jericho and doesn’t really stand up for himself. Rourke is looking down, implying some sort of shame or lower value; maybe that’s just where the monitor showing Jericho was. But Jericho is looking straight ahead, like he would be make virtual eye contact with Rourke.
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Considering:
A) this is an obvious work, not a shoot (note for non-wrestling fans–I’m saying this a fake fight leading up to Wrestlemania, like T. Ricky said); and
B) Jericho is a classic heel; and
C) Vince McMahon (owner of WWE) is trying to draw a big name star for WM (note–he always does this);
D) Rourke’s The Wrestler puts wrestling in the Oscar spotlight; and
E) Rourke has, with one movie (ok, 2–see Sin City), turned his career around
I can say this is going to be a classic wrestling matchup, i.e. both trying to act alpha, but Jericho getting it in the end (celebrities never lose at WM).
Trying to decide who is more alpha here is futile, because 1) they’re working off a script; and 2) it’s a wrestling script, so the writing quality is all over the place. Gone with the Wind this ain’t.
Bet on this Rourke will take on Jericho at WM–either he himself will wrestle Jericho (maybe, Rourke is an in shape bad ass, but he is 56) or Rourke will find some white knight (i.e a popular wrestler) to fight Jericho for him–it has to be at least a decent wrestling match, and Rourke may not be able to pull one off live.
Rourke will emerge the alpha come March, but deciding before then isn’t possible.
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hmm,
I was under the impression that wrestling is about as gay a sport can get.
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I’m going to take this in a different direction. The definition of alpha, on this blog at least, is the man who can garner the most pussy sandwiches. Jericho can get his fair share, being a minor celebrity in good shape, but Rourke is riding the wave of limelight. Rourke controls his sexual destiny at this point in his career, having a masterful movie performance and having that bad-boy Hollywood edge.
IF this were real, Jericho gains no alpha points for beating up or intimidating an older man like Rourke. Plus Jericho gets points shaved because he’s crowding in on Rourke’s stage in order to air his beef. It’s petty. Anyway, T.’s explanation of a publicity stunt seems pretty legit to me.
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It is staged. They often pull a non-wrestler into wrestling, in order to bring in broader interest, whether Floyd Mayweather facing a wrestler 3 times his size, or Donald Trump pretending to have a rivalry with Vince McMahon, or Andy Kaufmann faking a battle with Jerry Lawler on Letterman.
It is staged generation of hype.
Now, I think Jericho started out more Alpha, but was losing it later on by making it anti-climactic.
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I cannot believe people are seriously debating whether or not that was faked.
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Rourke is the bigger alpha. Alphas don’t sweat the small stuff, because they don’t need to prove anything.
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I am sure it was staged – which is why Jericho is the beta: he agreed with his agent to do it. Rourke just shooed him away like a fly.
“Have a good night, son.”? Feel free to crawl home on your hands and knees.
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These threads are so unintentionally tragic-comic.
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yeah this is kinda rediclious… trying to figure out whose more alpha between a actor and a wrestler. they both are ACTING!
that said, rourke
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*that being said, rourke
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Ram Jam!
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Of the three of them the old buzzard Larry King might be the biggest Alpha.
Check out this battle between Joe Rogan and a feminist named Lydia Lunch.
Joe puts the old witch in her place and yet why bother.
Is Joe an Alpha for doing this or would a true Alpha have refused to shake her hand in the beginning and quietly ignored or dismissed her?
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ok, wow… could their hair be any worse? seriously, wtf were these faggots thinking?
cock-smokers, the both of them
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OK, Rourke is certainly the alpha. Jericho needs to shut the fuck up and lose those highlights. “Have a good night, son” totally asserts Rourke’s upper hand.
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Based strictly on the video clip (not on the men themselves, their personas and whatnot) I’d say that Jericho is a LOT more alpha.
He sits straight and gives firm unwavering eye contact, while Mickey looks down (though in fairness he may be looking at a screen) and seems a lot more ‘flinching’ in his demeanor. He drinks from his water glass (appearing to telegraph nervousness) while Jericho looks straight on, non-reactive.
Also, the way Jericho keeps referring to Mickey as “Mr. Rourke” seems to be very ‘alpha’ for some reason.
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WELCOME TO!
RAW!
IS!
JERICHOOOOO!
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Stupidest.
Thread.
Ever.
Peter
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You can take it as Rourke being scared to fight Jericho. Sounds to me more like Rourke thinks Jericho isn’t even worth taking a few minutes out of his day to kick his ass.
I don’t have Flash on my work computer so I can’t watch the video. But in general terms, there is a fine but distinct line between looking like you’re too scared to fight and looking like you just aren’t taking the other person seriously.
One thing I’ve noticed in adult male confrontations is that the scared party will say stuff, even belligerantly just to save face, but his body will be oriented away or turned sideways from the other guy.
He’ll warily glance to the side to keep an eye for a coming blow, or will avoid looking at the guy to keep from antagonizing him more. And will likely be walking away while arguing.
But if you just aren’t taking your opponent seriously, you’ll look relaxed. And your demeanor will have an effect of making the other guy look increasingly frustrated rather than emboldened.
On a side note, fights are a normal thing among schoolboys and bullied kids are often advised by adults to “just ignore the bully'” presumably with the idea that you’re showing like you just don’t wanna be bothered by the moron.
But that’s bad advice. When you’re scared of the other guy, it’s impossible to hide it and attempts to avoid a fight will be seen as cowardice, thus encouraging more bullying.
A better advice to such a kid: tell him pop the bully in the mouth – swift and hard. And tell him not to worry about administrative consequences at school, if any, ’cause you got his back.
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The Duke of Dorchester would have kicked both their asses. And then poked them in the eye with that popsicle stick he hid in hs tights.
http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profiles/p/pete-doherty.php
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Vince Mc is always looking for an angle to get PPV buys…this is a pretty good one.
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I hope no one is taking that shit seriously because its staged but for those that don’t know and want to act like they know despite the daily ride in the short bus, Rourke is 56 years old and tapping this…
…a 21 year old and that’s not an outlier. He’s got a rep for pulling models going back years now. That being said, Rourke is a bit of a strange cat. Eccentric doesn’t even begin to describe that guy.
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On a side note, fights are a normal thing among schoolboys and bullied kids are often advised by adults to “just ignore the bully’” presumably with the idea that you’re showing like you just don’t wanna be bothered by the moron.
But that’s bad advice. When you’re scared of the other guy, it’s impossible to hide it and attempts to avoid a fight will be seen as cowardice, thus encouraging more bullying.
A better advice to such a kid: tell him pop the bully in the mouth – swift and hard. And tell him not to worry about administrative consequences at school, if any, ’cause you got his back.
If only it were so simple. Unfortunately, the panty piddling cowards who run schools today consider schoolyard fights to be grave threats to safety rather than a normal part of growing up. When your kid punches the bully to stave off an attack – or even if he’s already been attacked – he will become a dangerous threat in the eyes of the school adminstrators/cowards. If he’s very lucky, he’ll get off with a lengthy suspension and mandatory “counseling” session’s with the school system’s crackpot psychologist. More likely he’ll be banished to an “alternative school” populated by left-tail-of-the-Bell Curve delinquents. Note that this is in addition to whatever punishments the juvenile court metes out, as of course it’s standard operating practice for the school administrators/cowards to summon the police for all but the most trivial schoolyard fights.
Our schools have created a generation of young people who have been brainwashed into believing that it’s far more preferable to take a savage beating than it is to defend yourself.
Peter
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Peter, that’s an exaggeration. I’m 22, so maybe it’s changed even in the last ten years, but fights happened. I agree with the sentiment, but even when I went to private school, you wouldn’t get all of that just from throwing a single punch.
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but his body will be oriented away or turned sideways from the other guy.
turning your body sideways before a fight is just plain smart. any time i’m pretty sure a fight’s going down, i turn sideways and start talking with my hands, so they’re already up and near my face. like a stand-up comedian used to say, the usual “YOU WANNA GO?!” stance with your hands out and your face presented…not the smartest idea.
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Even if it’s staged, Rourke, hands down…he looks like he pretty much doesn’t care about what Jericho is saying and doesn’t look threatened in the slightest. Not phased in the slightest.
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They’re both being alpha, but in different ways. While how alpha someone is is quantifiable (how many hot chicks want them), I don’t see how one could quantify a given interaction like this. What is the metric?
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If you saw the end of the interview, Rourke discusses how he turned his career around. Part of the process was hiring and listening to a good agent. This is all smoke. His agent told him not to do WWE and he admitted he won’t.
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Since the terms ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ come from the theory of linear dominance hierarchies, it’s important to recall what that’s all about: in a given social context, the model of the hierarchy assumes that we can line the males up in order, calling them by names taken from the greek alphabet. Granted, we almost never hear anyone mention any beyond gamma (unless we’re talking about the last guy, where we leap straight to the last letter of the alphabet: omega.)
One important part of the male linear dominance hierarchy is that it is in a constant state of flux as members constantly try to increase their standing: think of rams butting heads in the wild in an effort to impress the females. Such a contest usually takes the form of the lower-ranked male taunting a higher-ranked male he believes he can defeat. Coincidentally, wrestling fans have a fetish for observing this sort of contest, and has made an art of cartoonish portrayals of it.
And that’s what we have here. Jericho is playing the role of the young buck who believes the long-reigning alpha has reached an age where his content can succeed. Rourke, of course, is playing the role of that long-reigning alpha: at the top of the hierarchy, worn-out, and holding on to his position with a mixture of inertia, diplomacy, and more gentle reminders of their current relative positions: “Have a good night, son.”
The terms “alpha”, “beta” (etc.) are more about position than a set of behaviors. When talking about Game, we tend to use the terms more loosely than originally intended: talking about “alpha behaviors” as a shorthand for “behaviors more likely to elevate/keep a high-status position.”
So clearly this little bit of theatre presents Rourke as the top dog being taunted by the next in line. But in reality they’re not even a part of the same social context: it is only the magic of split-screen television that even brought them together.
They’re both high-status in their own spheres, and I think this is something that’s very easy to forget on this forum: most guys can be alpha when the only other male in their social context is Urkel. But when Warren Beatty moves to town, even at the age of 71, you’ll probably find your position changes.
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assuming this is not all staged, i give the props to rourke.
maybe it’s a generational thing, but jericho just looks like a punk. he’s posing and preening like a woman. rourke harldy looks phased. you either act decisevely or you dismiss the other guy with the nonchalance he deserves. all that jawing and show boating is unnecessary.
jericho reminds me of one of the dudes from tool academy, but maybe that sort of cartoonish over-compensation is what passes for masculinity these days.
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turning your body sideways before a fight is just plain smart. any time i’m pretty sure a fight’s going down, i turn sideways and start talking with my hands, so they’re already up and near my face.
I hear what you are saying. Standing sideways is smart because your weak arm (the one closer to the other guy) is in a better position to block and your strong arm (the one that’s away from your opponent) is already cocked, in a position that you are ready to throw a punch, rather than have to pull the arm back and then punch.
However, what I was describing earlier — a guy who is in a confrontation that he is trying to get out of because he is scared — is not thinking tactics. He’s thinking “oh shit please don’t beat me up!” and is doing his best to mollify the opponent with a submissive retreat.
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Me in the news:
http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2009/01/send-sea-fighter-to-somalia.html
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As staged as any Mr. T and Hogan; even Larry King was a part of it, with the “Metallica” comment at the end.
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Rourke. No question.
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speaking of alpha behavior, i’d be interested to hear roissy’s take on the “The Power of Obama’s Hand”:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18142.html
Joe Lieberman has felt it. So has Joe the Plumber.
It’s the Obama Touch — the squeeze on the biceps, the pat on the shoulder or the tap on the back that signals the displeasure of the commander in chief. Let others turn on the deep freeze or lose their cool when they’re annoyed. Obama prefers to deal with problems by taking them in hand — literally.
T., you should find this interesting as well. how well does obama undertstand and make use of dominant behavior?
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Back in the day, guys who bred pit bulls for fighting would never rebreed a dog who ever barked or growled. When a dog (or wolf) growls or barks it’s actually attempting to avoid a fight by intimidating it’s adversary into backing down. Kinda like the two sissies at the bar who talk shit for twenty minutes before their buddies jump in to “hold them back.” A pit bull with game lunges into a fight to the death without a seconds hesitation and it fights silently. It should be the same for men.
Jericho is barking.
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Rourke is more alpha because it’s beta to challenge a guy to a fight who is 20 years older than you.
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Rourke looks embarrassed to be involved with the whole thing.
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one more thing, how hard a dog would fight was actually called game or gameness. cool huh
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Roissy, You are doing something here that you bash your women readers for: exercising hope.
You see a 56 yr. old man with graciousness, some wisdom, professionally accomplished, comfortable with apology, and (presumably) some wealth. You want to emulate him, and hold out hope that you will age as well. You hope that this would translate to your love life as well.
Your female readers have done the same with older role models who age well and remain attractive. Ex. : Helen Mirren, Christy Brinkley, Madonna, or women in their lives. At the mention of a beautiful older woman, your bitter attack dogs here will hurl : cougar, udders, wrinkly, saggy, blah-blah.
Hope is normal. and psychologically healthy. People pay money for hope. You and your delusional bitteratti (if I may borrow your word) indulge in it too.
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On the topic of school violence and how I was locked up
My little brother got beaten down in gymnasium (a Swedish 3-year high school for students aged 16-19) two weeks ago. My brother goes in a special class for kids with asperger/autism-like symptoms so he’s pretty shy, introverted and completely harmless.
The fight started when this 18-19 year old “Swedish” guy threw blocks of ice on my brother from inside a class room — my brother was outside, passing by — and my brother approached him and asked why the ice blocks were thrown. This question, which most people would find to be pretty reasonable, provoked the ice thrower so much that he jumped outside through a window, hit my brother and when he was lying down, continued the “fight” by kicking him in the head.
when I heard about this, I didn’t react. At all. Fights happen, right? I knew that the school wouldn’t do anything, except perhaps suspend the perpetrator for a short time, and that although a report was made to the police, they wouldn’t have time or the resources to do anything about it. After all, this is Sweden.
But I did tell my brother one thing: that he should call me immediately if someone messes with him in the future.
Well. I received that phone call this Monday afternoon. Three friends of the perpetrator had approached my brother and one of them had asked: “Are you afraid?” I’m at the school fifteen minutes later. And I’m mad, really mad. Mad in the way only a Finn can be when he senses that there’s a threat against a family member.
My brother is at the entrance of the gymnasium – he’s fine – and we start walking through the school, looking for the three guys who had approached him. We don’t find them so my brother suggests that we should take a look in the school catalog (a catalog containing photos of all students/classes) . There’s usually a few of them placed in various rooms in the school. Usually, there’s one at the school nurse but by random choice we decide to go to a room where a lot of teachers have their desks.
I head straight for the catalog that’s placed on a desk and my brother points out who he thought had approached him. At this point, I’m still REALLY amped up, my veins are pumped with adrenaline and the surroundings are a haze – I’m completely focused on the photo of the three guys. After having stared at that photo for a while, a few seconds at most, I leave the room but, and this is where I fucked up, before I leave I utter the following words: “put it this way, if you don’t get a handle on this situation, what happened in Jokela will look like a school trip in comparison”.
Not the most well chosen words, to put it mildly. Actually, I’d say that I didn’t chose those words at all: they just blurped out.
The police picked me up on tuesday evening. They wanted to question me immediately but I said that I wanted an attorney present when questioned – this is believe it or not NOT a standard procedure in Sweden – so I was told that I had to spend the night in jail. “That’s fine with me”, I said. The following morning, after having a spent the night in a cell, one of the female police officers who had detained me came to see me to tell me that we really could do the questioning without an attorney present. I answered, “Uh, I don’t know how seriously this situation is viewed upon so I really want an attorney present”. She understood, said that it was my right to have an attorney, and left.
Finally, on Wednesday afternoon, the attorney that had been assigned to me arrived and the whole questioning thing goes pretty quickly. I explained what had happened, why I was pissed off and that my words in the teacher’s room were not at all meant as a threat, they were merely an expression of the anger I felt at the moment. After the interview, the police woman (the same one who had visited me in the cell) called the prosecutor and shortly after I was told that they would release me.
So why am I telling this story?
Do you know what thoughts I had when I was locked up? Besides the obvious ones that is — the analyzes of the situation, the thoughts about what consequences I’d face — if I’m convicted, we’re talking about a minimum of six months and at most four years in jail.
“Well. This isn’t so bad. If I’m convicted and I have to spend some time in jail people will treat me as a criminal and when I’m released – DAMN! – think of all the pussy I’ll be able to pull!”
And that my friends is when you know you’ve spent way too much time reading PUA material.
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By grabbing/touching men, Obama is being condescending (no surprise there, given the tone of his politics and actiosn before hand). It’s just plain wrong to do in politics in all but the most emergency of circumstances, because its so obviously a power play.
The problem is, the press is lapping him up, not attacking him for behaving like a schoolyard bully nonverball threatening them with action.
I mean, imagine if a reporter had asked Bush a serious question, and instead of answering or ignoring or offering a snappy retort (as most politicians do), he had grabbed the reporter around the shoulders, pulled him close, and told him “this isn’t the time for that.” Begin rapid fire attacks from the left for Bush using body language to bully the 4th estate.
Heck, imagine if, shortly after ianuguration, Bush did a tour of the Fox Newsroom. Begin rapid fire attacks that Fox isn’t real news because now it is obvious they are in Bush’s pocket.
And yet nothing is done to WaPo.
The more I live, the more I realize the media’s left-wing bias is more than just real, it is conscious and very one-sided.
What is worse is if Bush did this all the time to people annoying him, and did it in public. It would betray a politician who couldn’t control people and had to physically get a handle on them. And would start alienating people. That’s why I thought his picture holding Putin was a sign of Bush’s weakness with Putin.
I wonder if Obama’s gonna try pulling this on Kim Jong-Il or Ahmadinajad. I think the fireworks would be astounding. Those guys are not in the habit of being manhandled by anyone, especially not a black American president.
We’re doomed.
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“It’s just plain wrong to do in politics in all but the most emergency of circumstances, because its so obviously a power play.”
I have to respectfully disagree. Power plays = politics. The top dogs in politics have always used intimidation tactics in order to put their opponent on a lower level. It says “I am higher on the totem pole than you, here’s a reminder.”
Check out this picture of “The LBJ Treatment.”
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Chuck:
“Power plays = politics.”
—Agreed. I think I should have qualified that. Politicians need to play the alpha and use power, but they’re also restrained by both civility and the fact that they can’t just keep the top position or power on their own, they need voters to give it to them (except long time insiders–but we’re talking abotu presidents here).
Intimidation tactics work in politics don’t work the same in a regular whose-the-top dog scenario, say , at ina social setting. There, doing anything to grab the brass ring is justified. However, in politics, use some obvious dirty moves/over-the-top intimidation tactics on your opponent, and you’re looking having that replayed, dissected, and abused over and over in ads and (hopefully) by the press.
It backfires in thsoe circumstances, because their power comes from getting voters to give them power without a gun to the head. If I think by electing you I might get a gun to my head if I disagree with you, you’re not getting my vote.
Plus politicians rule via influence. It’s about convincing your opponent that your course of action is the best for them. Dictators work through brute force–which is alpha, but in American politics, is obviously looked down upon.
LBJ is an interesting parallel, because he was roundly criticized and derided by everyone for heavy handed tactics. He famously used to make reporters—even female reporters, in the 1960s no less—follow him into the toilet stall while he took shits. He had more than disrespect for thsoe he considered inferior; he was downright abusive.
Had LBJ been a dictator, that would have been ok. But He wasn’t He was an elected official, and elected officials need to use their voice, not their body, to get a point across.
So its no surprise to me that LBJ was so roundly hated by everyone that he refused to run in ’68: he would have gotten clobbered. His physical intimidation reeked of a politician desperate, who was losing the Vietnam war and had the panic in the streets of the 1960s.
Obama is giving off that same vibe–panic.
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The hand on the shoulder or other tactics of physical domination are just the tip of the iceberg. Unseen are the phone calls, cold shoulders, use of media outlets, and other methods that these politicians play.
“There, doing anything to grab the brass ring is justified.”
The trick in politics is to grab for the brass ring without *looking like* you’re grabbing for the brass ring. It doesn’t mean there isn’t grabbing. Look at politicians who hesitantly declare candidacy for office. They almost never admit to it until after a search committee has formed and other processes have been underway. They don’t want to *look* like they are grabbing for power, although they are. So granted, an unsuccessful power grab will gain a politician leper status.
But just like Bush’s 2004 re-election mantra, “I have political capital, and I intend to spend it,” Obama is just reasserting his voter-mandated dominance with the line “I won” and his political kino.
If Obama was man-handling other politicians it would be one thing, but a savvy politician, like a savvy Gamer, can communicate these cues with subtle effectiveness. As of this moment, and with Obama’s knowledge that the media is on his side for a while, he can afford to push the envelope of political intimidation tactics in an effort to push through his agenda.
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I also want to clarify—I don’t want to say a politician never can do what Obama/LBJ does–using physicality to dominate. What I’m saying is that it can only be used sparingly, and that use denotes panic.
We have evidence that Obama has used physical intimidation/condescenation–touching/grabbing/deliberate contact—-many times in the last 2 weeks alone. It reeks of either panic or a genuine dictatorial personality.
Perhaps he’s realizing that charming a pushover press is a bit different than charming Republicans and conservative attackers, who now have the mics–Rush Limbaugh is clearly causing consternation for refusing to kiss his rings. Or perhaps this is Obama’s Chicago-thug way—-after all, we know practically nothing about the man’s machinations other than “hope” and “change” and that he votes “present” on everything except abortion (which is thoroughly in favor of).
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“The hand on the shoulder or other tactics of physical domination are just the tip of the iceberg. Unseen are the phone calls, cold shoulders, use of media outlets, and other methods that these politicians play. ”
—The other things you mention are more legitimate in my mind–that’s politics.
I’m no political historian or campaign manager—but its sort of like when two black guys are playing the dozens. The point is to absolutely insult your opponent into shame and get the crowd to declare victory. however, bad or inexperienced players often start taking the insults personally, and get into a physical altercation when the other when they’re losing. And that’s when you know that guy lost.
“The trick in politics is to grab for the brass ring without *looking like* you’re grabbing for the brass ring. It doesn’t mean there isn’t grabbing.”
—Definitely true. But when you’re caught ont ape several times actually grabbing, then it looks desperate.
“But just like Bush’s 2004 re-election mantra, “I have political capital, and I intend to spend it,” Obama is just reasserting his voter-mandated dominance with the line “I won” and his political kino. . ”
—Separate issues.
Bush’s mantra was non-confrontational—he was reminding Democrats he had overcome a losing war (at the time) and had kept partial control of congress. However, he also gave them face saving ability, because he wasn’t demanding obedience—just insinuating strongly that the American voter was on his side, due to the last election.
Obama’s is much more confrontational, and, if I may, childish and arrogant. He’s saying, “I won–you’re gonna do what I say.” It’s alpha, to be sure, but also demanding and much more dictatorial in stance. He’s daring Republicans/conservatives/Blue Dogs to stand up to his White House. Don’t be surprised if some hungy politican goes, “You may have won, Mr. Obama, but that does not mean you override Congress at your whim. You accused Mr. Bush of doing just that.”
There is no such thing as “political kino.” Kino is for a girl you want to bed, not to control someone doing something you don’t want them to do.
Fact is, when he has been caught touching, its always in a controlling manner, not a seductive manner. I’m not counting shaking hands with people, as that’s just common courtesy amongst professionals.
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At the rsik of being bi-partisan—a true alpha politician doesn’t have to use physicality to dominate.
Check the picture of the Yalta conference in WWII. 3 alpha dogs. Churchill, FDR, Stalin. Notice they’re all sitting down, right?
You know why?
Well, we all know FDR was a cripple, but kept it hidden from most Americans (the press knew, but agreed not to talk about it so long as FDR granted them access).
Churchill was a drunken old man of 60. Didn’t feel like standing up.
Stalin was barely 5′ tall. Never wanted people to know that. Used to erase people from photographs just for making him look small.
Now, of the 3 only Churchill could have physically dominated someone, and probably not at his age.
Yet all 3 were legitimate alphas. None resorted to personally physically intimidating people—it was much too impossible (Stalin got other people to run his gulags and torture chambers).
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What is “kino”?
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Lurker,
I agree with most of what you say. A politician can go overboard with the physical domination, although we differ in that I don’t think Obama has reached that point. If he’s a savvy politician he will gain the maximum political benefit out of the intimidation tactics without alienating those politicians and the public. The benefit of the bills and policies he gets through will outweight the cost of the tactics.
“What I’m saying is that it can only be used sparingly, and that use denotes panic.”
I don’t get the feeling that Obama is in panic mode. Despite economic turmoil, he’s had his ass kissed too much to panic at this point.
Re: Bush “However, he also gave them face saving ability, because he wasn’t demanding obedience”
I recall Bush’s phrase “You’re either with us or against us.” This was mainly aimed at foreign governments but was felt to encompass the press and electorate as well.
“Perhaps he’s realizing that charming a pushover press is a bit different than charming Republicans and conservative attackers”
Obama has to worry more about the split factions in his own party than the weakened Republicans.
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Obama constantly putting his hand on people’s shoulder isn’t some over-arrogant posturing. He may be purposefully showing his power in some cases, but the move can be just as easily benign, particularly as a tall man. A lot of times, with shorter friends, I put my arm on their shoulder, and its mostly a gesture of goodwill — see the shot(s) of Obama with his arm on McCain’s shoulder. It’s sort of the nature of being tall more than anything.
“Bush’s mantra was non-confrontational—he was reminding Democrats he had overcome a losing war (at the time) and had kept partial control of congress.”
This is pretty silly. Bush was very confrontational, and his acting like he had some mandate by the people from his slim margin of victory of a lame-duck candidate like Kerry was just ridiculously arrogant. Btw, it was a lost occupation (not war) to begin with, no matter how much you want to claim “the surge worked”.
In general, I think it would be advisable for those on the Right here to stop comparing things so often to Bush, if they want any credibility. Bush was a uniquely terrible president, politician, and person. There seems to be this absurd notion now in retrospect that Bush wasn’t given a fair shake, or was unfairly criticized, because of some media bias. I think the press does lean left, but that is simply the nature of it — and it is far far far less biased than is being whined about here and any other conservative forum I happen to come across. I’d agree that Obama has gotten almost all positive press but thats for a lot of reasons: 1) he has a very clean record as far as politicians go, and every time a non-issue like jeremiah wright comes up, it just takes the focus off any legitimate criticisms, 2) the country is relieved to have a seemingly decent man in office, who is inspiring, and we can believe in, rather than someone who was all but guaranteed a failure, 3) the country needs obama, or whoever was in office, to succeed. we cant afford for him not to. i think this would be the case even if mccain would have been elected – though lets be real, Palin basically writes her own criticisms. 4) he seems to be a thoughtful, real person, that is willing to listen to other points of view.
Its fine to not agree with liberal policies. Great, we get it. But its another thing to be constantly reaching for any tiny little non-issue you can think of that might be worthy of criticism, just because the loser you elected the last 2 times got (rightly) skewered by the media and the world on basically a daily basis.
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Rourke wins: his lack of being flustered, while Jericho needed to validate himself to the audience which made Rourke seem more alpha…Jericho spoke faster, his intonation was practically pre-pubescent at best……
Rourke’s reference to having been an actual pro fighter, and not a staged outcome wrestler was the coup de gracie.
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Chuck:
“A politician can go overboard with the physical domination, although we differ in that I don’t think Obama has reached that point.”
—True enough, we do differ. I think the line was definitely crossed when he did it to a reporter asking hima question during a victory tour of the reporter’s offices.
The double whammy—you guys got me the presidency, thanks plus “I don’t have to answer your question, son”—-I think is something that will comeback to haunt him.
“I recall Bush’s phrase “You’re either with us or against us.” This was mainly aimed at foreign governments but was felt to encompass the press and electorate as well. ”
—The phrase was uttered pre-2004, in 2001/2002. By the election of 2004, he had considerably softened. Also, the phrase was directed at foreign powers during the State of the Union. It was paranoid leftists who thought it was directed towards them–because they wanted Bush to seem like a divisive persona–it was standard M.O. for 8 years–everything the Whtie House did had to be unconstitutional, partisan, and extreme, except that it wasn;t—everything the White House did—from Immigration to Spending to War in Iraq and Afghanistan–were supported by Democrats. Even Guantanemo was supported by some. Painting every divisive statements towards terrorists as being aimed at left-wingers was classic paranoid re-framing by the left to make themselves the victims.
In contrast, Obama directly attacked those American politicians with his “I won” speech. There is no two ways about it—you do what I say, conservatives. The two situations are vastly different.
“I don’t get the feeling that Obama is in panic mode. Despite economic turmoil, he’s had his ass kissed too much to panic at this point. ”
–That’s exactly why I think he may be panicking.
It’s been so easy for him—what with the media paving his way and getting the Senate seat by his opponents scandal and the economy tanking at just the right time for his presidential election and no solid right winger on the Republican ticket and Bush refusing to beef up his numbers—that now, faced with the fact that some people who he needs to roll over for him to win, and finally finding opposition, for the first time in years, he has to work for something, and he doesn’t know how.
And I think Obama knows that this crisis is the perfect opportunity for him to pass his social engineering objectives under the public’s nose. Barring a huge governmental intervention—which is not what the Dem. plan is and which, if it were, would lengthen the recession—the recession will be over in 1 year if not 9 months, at least according to economists I’ve read.
After the panic, it’ll be much harder to cram social engineering down America’s throat, considering we’ll be able to view it soberly. So Obama’s panicked to get this off the ground ASAP, and suddenly, he ahs roadblocks.
“Obama has to worry more about the split factions in his own party than the weakened Republicans.”
—As Rush Limbaugh and the House Republicans and Senate dissenters prove, the minority party is exactly the thing Obama has to worry about. Now out of power, but with no election momentum carrying him, Obama has to deal with people antithetical to his entire program. And he hasn’t had to before this.
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Rick:
“Obama constantly putting his hand on people’s shoulder isn’t some over-arrogant posturing. He may be purposefully showing his power in some cases, but the move can be just as easily benign, particularly as a tall man. A lot of times, with shorter friends, I put my arm on their shoulder, and its mostly a gesture of goodwill — see the shot(s) of Obama with his arm on McCain’s shoulder. It’s sort of the nature of being tall more than anything.”
—Dickhead. You may do it to your friends. You don’t do it to your colleagues, reporters, and others WHEN YOU’RE THE PRESIDENT. especially when faced with 1) a difficul;t question or 2) someone oppoenent/crony not toeing your line.
I love you Obama apologists.
“Bush was very confrontational, and his acting like he had some mandate by the people from his slim margin of victory of a lame-duck candidate like Kerry was just ridiculously arrogant.”
——I love when liberals whine about Bush, who compromised and got Democrat permission ON EVERYTHING, was an idealogue. Remember how he forced immigration on the Dems? And Social Security? Remember when no Democrat signed up for the wars? Remember when he never proposed any liberal judges? Remember when he didn’t pass any democrat-approved spending bills? Wait……
And look up your political terminiology, boy. Lame-duck does not describe Kerry’s 2004 run. Lame-duck is a candidate who is still in office after an election has chosen his replacement.
Liberals. Retards without Special Ed.
Once again, Ricky the beta proves why liberal men are mostly just whiny little pussies.
“Btw, it was a lost occupation (not war) to begin with, no matter how much you want to claim “the surge worked”.”
—Memo to Ricky the beta (and all liberal pussies). We have won in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/world/middleeast/29election.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/world/middleeast/29iraq.html?scp=5&sq=Iraq&st=cse
http://www.zombietime.com/vi_day/
I know that your little brains can’t wrap your heads around the fact that it is, in fact, a victory. But rest assured, your stupidity does not discredit the win.
Suck eggs, nancy boy.
“Bush was a uniquely terrible president, politician, and person. ”
—Wrong, wrong, wrong. But why am I arguing with a retard?
“There seems to be this absolutely correct notion now in retrospect that Bush wasn’t given a fair shake, or was unfairly criticized, because of some media bias.”
—FTFY
“I think the press does lean left, but that is simply the nature of it — and it is far far far less biased than is being whined about here and any other conservative forum I happen to come across.”
—-Said the beta who just saw an inexperienced, brainless, bullying socialist elected by the press.
“I’d agree that Obama has gotten almost all positive press but thats for a lot of reasons: 1) he has a very clean record as far as politicians go,”
—Except hanging out with murdering terrorists, buying hosues from real estate swindlers at 1/2 their cost, and lying about conversations with Blago.
“and every time a non-issue like jeremiah wright comes up,” it just takes the focus off any legitimate criticisms,”
—You think not noticing that that your pastor, whose church you attended for 20 years and who think of as a uncle, is a racist lunatic who got joy out of the Sept. 11th attacks, is a non issue?????
“2) the country is relieved to have a seemingly decent man in office,”
–Who thinks children are punishment and terrorists are ok if they write books calling the American educational system racist.
“who is inspiring,”
—or sounds like every other politician on the block, except liberals believet hat because he is black and socialist, he is somehow a better speaker than all.
“and we can believe in,”
–no one believes in him but morons like you.
“rather than someone who was all but guaranteed a failure,”
–victory in Iraq. Genocidal dictator removed. No terrorists attacks since 9/11/ 7 years of economic prosperity, that only went downhill when democrats took congress.
“3) the country needs obama,”
—-Like a hole in the head.
“or whoever was in office, to succeed.”
—I hope he fails.
“we cant afford for him not to. i think this would be the case even if mccain would have been elected – though lets be real, Palin basically writes her own criticisms.”
–Let’s be real: every criticism you have of Palin is based onfalse reports of her saying things she never said, or exaggerations of things Obama (57 states) and Biden (He will be tested!) never got called on.”
“4) he seems to be a thoughtful, real person,”
—who hides his entire past except the part about being a community organizer.
“that is willing to listen to other points of view.”
–Translation: pats them on the head and tells them “I won, do what I say,”
” But its another thing to be constantly reaching for any tiny little non-issue”
—like lying, bullying, being corrupt, and physically intimidating reporters.
” just because the winner of 2 wars who kept america safe and kept the economy going until democrats took over in 2007 that you elected the last 2 times got visciously and unfairly skewered by the media”
—FTFY, bitch
“and the world”
—Ah,a liberal. France’s opinion of us is much mroe important than our own.
Ricky the beta, you couldn’t be begging for a woman to peg you any more than if you lathered up the dildo for her.
What am I saying? Ricky the beta doesn’t like lube; he likes it rough.
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Come on you guys; of course it’s more or less fake, and of course Rourke dominates. The young scrub had a quivery high “I’m offended” voice like a big girlie man and a dumb chip on his shoulder over some silly joke he felt cut his balls off. Rourke was smooth like Fonzie. You guys need to watch less pro wrestling, and go visit the monkey cage. Alpha silverback gorillas treat upstarts just the way Rourke treated young guy. I mean, come on; he was referring to himself in the third person … who does that? Dudes who start fights over perceived insults are insecure twits. Dudes who start fights with old men over perceived slights are doubly so. Don’t underestimate boxers either, as actual badasses. Trained fighters will beat younger and larger opponents (and Jericho is neither that much younger nor much larger) who are not trained fighters. Finally, despite Rourke having beat himself up with the ugly stick beyond all hope of repair … just look at the women he’s still tagging for chrissakes.
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Super staged.
Rourke is tougher.
Real Boxer.
– MPM
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Good God!
Who is that creepy man in the purple shirt and suspenders?
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Ricky boy is such a beta. With pussies like him around, attacking Bush with no logic and supporting that shithead Obama, its no wonder we’re on the decline.
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Rourke is definitely the alpha here: calm, cool, collected, even humorous.
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As mentioned above, Lyndon Johnson used to use a lot of physical intimidation. Robert Caro and Robert Dallek, two very respected historians have called him the most effective Senate Majority Leader in history. A C-SPAN survey said that he was the number one president with relations with congress. Johnson’s presidency was a disaster for America, but he was certainly an alpha politician.
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Lurker —
Obamma’s stuff may have worked with his beta, dependent staff and hangers on and the media, but if you want to know why all 177 Republican House members voted against his bailout bill, and the Senate’s Republican members are threatening to do the same, this is part of it.
That stuff goes over big with women, but for men, including independent men, it just sets them off and creates a fight. A guy puts his hands on my shoulders or neck, in place like a bar, I figure it’s time for a fight. He wants it, and that’s why it’s there.
The Press did him no favor. No early warning system. Obama’s probably puzzled. “It works with my staff — why not these guys?” Duh the moron. Because those guys don’t work for you.
You are spot on with the panic. Obama offers nothing but fake-intimidation to Republicans, and doesn’t figure out why it does not work. He’s not trading favors, pork, etc. with Republicans to get them on board. It worked in a one-party State, not the Big Time National politics.
Rick — Bush was a good man, a terrible politician, and a decent, not great President. Obama is as corrupt as Blago, as hate-ridden as Wright and mentor Farrakhan, and a closet Muslim and Marxist who hates America and particularly, White Men. Read his first book, where he quotes Malcolm X’s desire for a symbolic act of violence against White Men to cleanse the White blood out of him. Consider his naive/dumb mother married his father. The Press has given Obama a pass on all his corrupt involvement with Rezko, Auichi, Saddam, and Hamas/Iran (they donated heavily to his campaign along with the Saudis). They’ve ignored his trips to Pakistani terrorist madrassas and his Muslim past. His repeated anti-White statements and writings. His hatred of capitalism and the free market and non-crony capitalism. His reflexive dislike of America and it’s traditions, and his elitism.
Now they are stuck with Louis Farrakhan meets Jimmy Carter.
Jericho is probably tougher. Pro Wrestling is fake, not the injuries, which are more severe, more debilitating, and the grind tougher than boxing. Most boxers do poorly in MMA, but wrestlers do well. If you can take a punch, and close with the guy, boxers and karate guys don’t do well, particularly on the ground. I have had more than a few fights with Karate guys in my younger days, I can speak to this truth. They don’t like getting choked out much.
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Thank you whiskey.
Lord help us all.
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Jericho:
– applauds Rourke’s performance (alpha)
– leans back (alpha)
– chin up (defiant. alpha)
– stares at camera (alpha)
– disparages Rourke (mentions amateur wrestling)
– aggrandizes self (i’m the best in the world at what i do)
– cocks head to side (attempting to understand)
– speaks of self in third person
– “i don’t have respect for you”
– crosses arms (defensive)
– mimics Rourke’s use of term “Brother”
Rourke:
– head down (beta)
– eyes sometimes down (beta)
– shifty eyes. avoids looking at camera (beta)
– touches nose (beta)
– attempts to speak a few times, but holds self back (beta)
– challenges Jericho to boxing match (alpha)
– “takes the high road” beta
– touches nose again (covers face. beta)
– drinks coffee (covers face. beta)
– mocks Jericho by saying he looks sharp (cheap shot at end of interview. beta)
– calls him son, and looks to side. cheap shot. beta
Jericho is alpha. Rourke is beta. Though one has to wonder why Jericho cares.
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Lurker,
Going on tilt @ Rick = beta.
Way to turn a somewhat civil discussion into something more.
Here’s the fucking point. You don’t have to be an Obama apologist like Rick to have this position. Whether or not Obama or Bush were/are good/bad people is not relevant. Whether or not the media is biased towards Dems is irrelevant as well for this discussion. Obama can get away with using strong-arm tactics on Republicans because he has the good grace of the media, the public, and other countries mixed with a weakened Republican minority.
Republicans and Limbaugh at this point have to play guerilla warfare, like the Dems had to pre-2006. These tactics are a very important part of our democratic process btw.
“A guy puts his hands on my shoulders or neck, in place like a bar, I figure it’s time for a fight.”
Whiskey – not likely if you’re outmatched. I mean it’s possible, but if you’re beta relative to the alpha putting his hand on your neck, chances are you’ll back down.
A truly great alpha, like a truly great leader will disarm those beneath him to decrease competitive aspirations. If Obama roils too many for too long (like Bush did, it’s fact), he’ll face more politicians not falling into line. The thing is, at this fucking point, Obama can AFFORD to do this as the alpha/top-dog/big-dick-swinging SOB that he is right now. He can lay hands on another politician; what are the consequences? No vote in Obama’s favor? OK then, he doesn’t get to ride the groundswell “Wave of Hope and Change.”
“In contrast, Obama directly attacked those American politicians with his “I won” speech. There is no two ways about it—you do what I say, conservatives.”
Lurker,
There was no “I won” speech. It was a comment in a meeting amongst other politicians. Also, you’re mischaracterizing what he meant by the “I won.” He’s not saying it as an implication that Republicans have to do what he says; he’s saying “I won, you can do whatever the fuck you want, but it won’t matter (for at least a year) because your numbers are weak.” Obama is not panicking because of Limbaugh and minority players. I maintain that he has to watch out for the spineless fucks Reid and Pelosi.
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This is rope-a-dope alphatude. Rourke let’s Jericho think he has the upperhand by playing the nervous hunched beta and then let’s Jericho have it with a final ‘have a good night son’ that somehow undoes (at least to this observer) all of Jericho’s good alpha body language and behavior.
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clearly Rourke is the alpha here, he’s playing the indifferent jackass card.
See, Roissy, you’ve taught me well =)
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Mickey was surprised about Chris’s attack and stayed collected and cool even though he was thinking, “this pretty boy play fights, I used to fight for real”. This is evident from when he touched his nose, it ment he wanted to say something but didn’t and at the end he says, “you looking sharp (pretty boy), good luck on the 5th (dismisses him)”.
Chris repeated himself and got upset for something stupid
Both are alpha
Mickey slightly more alpha for “being too alpha to fight back”, and what was mentioned above.
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The real question is, how does this information come into effect in the real world? Can you make predictions based on it? Can you use it to your advantage in any way?
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This is amazing… so deftly reaching in and gripping at a man’s insecurities, twisting them around, agonizingly… Getting pussy every night… getting anal on the second date… having underlings do all your work as you schlep off to play… and it’s all justified, because he is a lowly helpless hopeless beta, and you are an Alpha. Only two possibilities. (unless you’re an omega who doesn’t bear regarding as any more than a speck of dust)
How can a man avoid living a mediocre meaningless existence? It’s obvious. By getting game, and becoming an Alpha. Someone who deserves everything he can take from the world.
You have something great here, Roissy. I sincerely can’t wait for the rise of Alpha fascism. (it is what it is)
REMAKE US ALL!
(I am not against you.)
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This post and subsequent remarks really makes me rethink anything I’ve read on this blog (post or comments) as valid helpful information on women or being a man.
WTF are you thinkin’, DUDE LOOKS (IS) LIKE A SCARED OLD MAN. Are you blind. He has a montor infront of him too, he looks down to avoid confrontation. Scripted? REALLY? For a Oscar nominie that was some crap acting.
WTF, delusional, most of you. WTF.
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Yes, WTF, this is a total work. You’re a delusional fuck if you’re stupid enough to argue that this is real.
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Chuck, Lurker was reacting to weak-ass Ricky’s delusion, not you. Rick turned this into an uncivil conversation by basically parroting back 23-year-old-hipster-from-Brooklyn talking points about Bush that have zero basis in reality.
And I think you’re giving The One far too much credit for uttering “I won” when confronted with opposition. It’s a total immature schoolyard bully tactic, and is uttered by a man totally delusional with what he can do.
Here’s hoping the bastard gets caught on TV saying something bad about hispanics, because at this rate, nothing he does to insult white people or politicians will be taken seriously by the left.
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Chuck:
“Obama can get away with using strong-arm tactics on Republicans because he has the good grace of the media, the public, and other countries mixed with a weakened Republican minority.”
—Chuck, using “strong arm” tactics and desperate body motions are 2 different things,. Obama’s actions aren’t strong arm, they’re signs of cracking. Like I said, when politicians resort to physically manhandling opponents and they are not dictators, it reeks of desperation.
“Republicans and Limbaugh at this point have to play guerilla warfare, like the Dems had to pre-2006. These tactics are a very important part of our democratic process btw.”
—No disagreement here.
” not likely if you’re outmatched. I mean it’s possible, but if you’re beta relative to the alpha putting his hand on your neck, chances are you’ll back down.”
–Chuck, you’re confusing things. The physical act of putting hands on someone in a professional setting is very demeaning and totally inappropriate. If Obama were at a bar and trying to prove alpha status—which is what whiskey is talking about–then yes, it is appropriate, because it demeans and makes the other guy feel childish. But the guy doing it can expect a pop in the nose from someone not having it.
However, this is not a bar setting. Knowing it is inappropriate, Obama is doing it. A lot.
You’re right, he could believe he has the power to do it, but considering he was all about verbally controlling his opponents previously, it smacks of a man acting out of character. And what forces a man to resort to unprofessional measures? Panic, for one. And if you can’t pop the president in the nose for doing it, what can you do? Get on the horn and rail about how bullying and unprofessional the so called Messiah is. How, for all his talk, he is really just a slimy little Chicago pol. How he says one thing yet does another.
“A truly great alpha, like a truly great leader will disarm those beneath him to decrease competitive aspirations.”
–True.
“The thing is, at this fucking point, Obama can AFFORD to do this as the alpha/top-dog/big-dick-swinging SOB that he is right now.”
—He can act like an alpha, but this is not what he is acting like. He is acting out of character for a true alpha pol–he is resorting to physicially condescending/controlling people. True alpha pols—see FDR/CHurchill/Stalin story above–don’t need to. Only fake ones—those grasping at power that is slipping away–a la LBJ–do this.
“He can lay hands on another politician; what are the consequences?”
—The consequences are, if he continues, some hungry opposition leader point out that the man from Hopenchange is really just a Chicago thug who can’t keep his hands to himself.
Lemme put it this way: If Obama continues down this road, he’s going to end up doing it to some female Senator or Congresswoman–and feminists will be torn. On one hand, Obama let’s them kill babies with impunity. On the other, he’s treating them like little ladies and might as well be patting them on the head. Feminists are all about men not using their physicality on women. It will be seen as what it is: an intimidation/condenscation tactic.
Rest assured, however, there’s going to be some harsh backlash if he doesn’t learn to act properly.
“Also, you’re mischaracterizing what he meant by the “I won.” He’s not saying it as an implication that Republicans have to do what he says; he’s saying “I won, you can do whatever the fuck you want, but it won’t matter (for at least a year) because your numbers are weak.” ”
—I disagree, but in either event its a distinction without a difference. Obama’s meaning is that I don’t need you to like what I do, it’ll happen—-which is EXACTLY what the left complained about Bush doing (untrue, but its what they believed).
Now that we have documented proof that Obama doesn’t really care about bipartisanship—he won, doncha know, it doesn’t matter what the Repubs want—-you’ve just given the opposition ammo. It was alpha, but dumb, because insulting the entire minority party openly is just begging to have your numbers reduced.
“Obama is not panicking because of Limbaugh and minority players.”
—Au contrair. Bush never called out a left wing commentator by name in a serious debate–and never said you “couldn’t listen to them” to get work done with Bush. Obama did. He put Limbaugh and conservatives in opposition to himself for no reason–he’s making it an us v. them argument.
Obama’s slip was very stupid and showed his inexperience–it gave Rush and his Dittoheads more power than they’ve enjoyed in about 2 years, since McCain was a centrist candidate.
Now Rush is the defacto leader of Obama opposition, simply because Obama won’t consider Rush followers as serious Washingtonians. Its the position Rush/conservatives revel in—left wing snooty types dismissing them for being redneck/stupid/conservative. Obama doesn’t appear smart enough to realize the brains and talent (on loan from God, according to Rush) on the other side.
Remember this is Rush, a man who was a key factor in 1994 takeover, and has 20 million well-informed listeners pissed off at Obama. Rush is the man with the Golden Mic. Obama just gave a powerful man some very good ammo, and alerted those people who may not be sold on Obama’s plan who is the person leading the opposition. They called the 1994 congress the dittohead Congress. Will this next one be dittohead redux?
“I maintain that he has to watch out for the spineless fucks Reid and Pelosi.”
—Please. Pelosi just rubber stamped Obama’s plan. Reid is Obama’s bitch. It’s all about whether the Dems can get those few Repub votes they need in the Senate. If Limbaugh is so much on Obama’s mind that he’s calling him out nationally, its the Republicans who worry him. The democrats will fall in line on everything not called marxism—and only the Blue Dogs will hold out on that.
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Uhm, touching is very, very much part of most socially dominant men’s arsenal. It’s not a sign of desperation at all.
My guess is that most politicians that are broadly popular does a lot of touching. Clinton for instance touches the hell out of people and I very much doubt that was ever a reason the people who hated him, hated him.
To the tall guy,
putting your arms around the shoulders of shorter guys is a dick move that makes you look higher in the pecking order than him. It’s one of the benefits of being tall, and one of the downsides of being short.
It’s precisely for that reason that Obama put his arm around the shoulders of McCain. It really shoves that he is the larger, more physically dominant guy. Compare who looks more comfortable in that pose of the two.
Slightly off topic that size differential and ability to handle body language is probably why McCain ignored Obama’s physical presence as much as humanely possibly. Mostly he didn’t look at the man, even in one on one debates.
I’m sure it feels all natural and ok to you, but it won’t bring positive feelings to your friend and you’re kind of tooling him with regards to onlookers.
Which is fine if you want to demonstrate value, or just tool someone, but not really a cool thing to do to an actual friend.
It’s very much like the really strong guy who challenges people to arm wrestle, because it’s so much “fun”. Or the smart guy who enjoys making people look ignorant.
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“Rush Limbaugh” is popular, apparently, but his true power is pretty limited, especially when the party he back provides nothing for many of the lower/working class listeners he has. You seem to be pretty sold on his power though, keep listening.
Ridiculous that it’s been what, 10 days, and you are trying to claim Obama is panicking? And so therefore is using some subtle posturing tactics to desperately try to show his power? I mean what a fucking non-issue.
What Obama should be panicking about is how the fuck we are going to pay for this stimulus package. Obviously just cutting taxes and neglecting everything else didn’t work with Bush, which is why this package has to be so big, but even a big Obama supporter like me isn’t acting like this is going to solve everything. Haven’t heard too many alternative plans though, and funny to see the right all of a sudden getting fiscally conservative.
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JohnF
“Uhm, touching is very, very much part of most socially dominant men’s arsenal. It’s not a sign of desperation at all.”
Agreed on this, and its basically all that needs to be said about it.
Your point about it being a problem when I do it to my shorter friends is noted, and I imagine its something I should watch, but its also not something I do very often. And definitely not in front of girls or anything. Its really just a natural show of friendship, and its ridiculous to see all this clamoring about starting fights if someone did it to you. Classic short guy attitude. I’ll always be in awe of the severe chip on the shoulder short guys have. The whole tough-guy compensation attitude only makes them look desperate and try-hard.
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JohnF:
“My guess is that most politicians that are broadly popular does a lot of touching. Clinton for instance touches the hell out of people and I very much doubt that was ever a reason the people who hated him, hated him.”
— I disagree.
Clinton was slimy, but he wasn’t a grabber type—When he touches people, its in a backslapping pol kinda way (i.e. his buddies and cronies when telling a joke), which is also not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about instances where Obama is using touch to control someone–a la Biden or a reporter–who is either displeasing him or challenging him.
To see how little Clinton “touched” people, check out the famous Time Magazine whore who offered him oral sex for supporting her politics.
http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/1998/cyb19980707.asp#1
Liberal women—so classy.
She mentions a brief foot brush and wrist brush–a delicate touch, literally. That’s a far cry from Obama crabbing people and making sure they know he is touching them.
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Ricky the beta arrives again, in full force:
“Rush Limbaugh” is popular, apparently,”
—That’s like saying “‘Seinfeld’ was a popular show, apparently.” It’s more than apparently, dumbass.
“but his true power is pretty limited,”
—-I defy you to google the term “Operation Chaos” and then try to say that with a straight face, betaboy.
” especially when the party he back provides nothing for many of the lower/working class listeners he has.”
–like jobs, lower taxes, family values, removal of social welfare, fighting discrimination, bolstering self-esteem, and a competitive work environment. Also, a love for America, support for the troops, and pride. Yeah, Rush offers nothing. NEXT!
“You seem to be pretty sold on his power though, keep listening.”
—Didn’t need your permission, hipster bitch.
“Ridiculous that it’s been what, 10 days, and you are trying to claim Obama is panicking?”
—Obama is the one who said you should never let a crisis pass without getting somethign out of it. If people stop panicking and start settling in—which is what’s happening—his socialist policies lose momentum.
“And so therefore is using some subtle posturing tactics to desperately try to show his power?”
—Not subtle, beta, but hey, maybe in Brooklyn that’s the way some guy treats you before he fucks your girlfriend in the bathroom.
He’s using them to try to enforce his will-because he finally found opposition and doesn’t know what to do. Everyone else has rolled over because he’s Obama–he “won.” Now he suddenly found out people won’t roll over for his bromides alone. He’s worried. It shows.
“I mean what a fucking non-issue.”
—To a liberal, every single problem Obama ever has is a non-issue. When a bomb goes off in Manhattan and kills hundreds and it turns out it was some guy Obama lets go from Gitmo, you can bet Ricky the beta will say its a non-isssue.
“What Obama should be panicking about is how the fuck we are going to pay for this stimulus package.”
—Economics? froma liberal? THIS IS A GUY WHO OPPOSED SOCIAL SECURITY REFORM. He doesn’t knwo his ass from his elbow on economics.
“Obviously just cutting taxes and neglecting everything else didn’t work with Bush,”
—Attention America hating hipsters: Bush spent a lot of money. Pissed off conservatives. Hannity and Rush raped him for it. I know John Stewart tells you all right wingers think lock step. Memo to you: they don’t.
“which is why this package has to be so big,”
—No, ricky boy, its so big because The One has to make sure that Big Abortion and Big Auto and Big Vote Frauders get paid. This is about graft.
“but even a big Obama supporter like me”
–You? An mindless Obama follower? Say it ain’t so.
“isn’t acting like this is going to solve everything.”
—The stimulus will not solve the recession. None will. If the government did nothing, we’d be out in a year. Obama is using it as an excuse to pay graft to the people his party is in the pocket of.
“Haven’t heard too many alternative plans though,”
—I have. Don’t do anything. The recession is part of what we big boys call “the business cycle.” It will cycle out within a year–assuming Obama and the dems don’t try some social engineering. Which they will, and like FDR, make the the problem worse.
I wouldn’t cut taxes quite yet like most conservatives would, but that’s because I want the debt gone. But cutting taxes in the future would help as well.
“and funny to see the right all of a sudden getting fiscally conservative.”
—the right, brooklyn bitch, always was. Bush wasn’t fiscally conservative enough and lost support that way—hence why his numbers fell below 30%– he outspent himself. I think Bush wa sa good president, but bad on that front. He tried to appease you handout-wlefare types and got burned.
Back to your loft, bitch!
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P.s. Obama is also “panicking” because he’s an unqualified affirmative action dingbat without any accomplishments and who has never taken a stand on anything.
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Lurker, its as if you specialize in being wrong. Good luck listening to “Rush” and living your obviously miserable life.
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Lurker
“Chuck, using “strong arm” tactics and desperate body motions are 2 different things,. Obama’s actions aren’t strong arm, they’re signs of cracking.”
You can’t just characterize his physical intimidation tactics as desperate. There’s no basis for you to say this; you’re trying to use that assumption for the basis of your argument. The fact is that physical intimidation, laying your hand on a lesser-than, and posturing are all maneuvers to sort out who is top dog. Obama is top dog at this point.
“–Chuck, you’re confusing things. The physical act of putting hands on someone in a professional setting is very demeaning and totally inappropriate. If Obama were at a bar and trying to prove alpha status—which is what whiskey is talking about–then yes, it is appropriate”
Whiskey chose that scenario as an example, not me. You guys are trying to characterize Obama’s laying of hands in the Oval Office or wherever as the same as another guy laying hands on another in a bar. It’s not.
“Obama’s meaning is that I don’t need you to like what I do, it’ll happen—-which is EXACTLY what the left complained about Bush doing (untrue, but its what they believed).”
Agreed.
“And what forces a man to resort to unprofessional measures? Panic, for one. And if you can’t pop the president in the nose for doing it, what can you do? Get on the horn and rail about how bullying and unprofessional the so called Messiah is.”
This gets to the heart of my point. The “beta” politician can’t do anything about it at this point in the Game. Therefore, Obama has no reason to panic. If he is panicing, which I don’t believe, he’s doing so irrationally. His opponents have no political traction with which to cause panic. Limbaugh has clout, but not enough to counter Obama’s following.
“Obama’s slip was very stupid and showed his inexperience–it gave Rush and his Dittoheads more power than they’ve enjoyed in about 2 years”
I agree in part. Although Republicans are also trying to stifle Rush too, Obama and Dems’ best bet would be to act as if Rush didn’t exist. I appreciate and enjoy Rush Limbaugh; a move against him and other talk show guys will alienate a lot of people. I just don’t think it arises from desperation; I believe it’s out of stupidity.
I disagree in that Rush would have gained power in this Republican vacuum by default regardless of what Dems said. He is the de facto party leader; has been for years.
“The recession is part of what we big boys call “the business cycle.” It will cycle out within a year–assuming Obama and the dems don’t try some social engineering.”
Except that a full meltdown of the financial mechanism of this country can exacerbate a normal business cycle trough. That’s what we have to watch out for. That being said; it’s too bad we have a Fed that creates an opportunity for that financial meltdown.
Rick:
“Rush Limbaugh” is popular, apparently, but his true power is pretty limited”
Let’s be honest. Limbaugh is very popular. He has pull in DC. His insight is the basis for any Republican Resistance. It’s possible that Limbaugh put the White House in Obama’s hands for his refusal to toe anti-conservative McCain’s line.
“Obviously just cutting taxes and neglecting everything else didn’t work with Bush”
Please stop blaming Bush for everything. It turns people off of your argument. Presidents have negligible impact on the economy. Blame Alan Greenspan before you blame anyone. Blame Wall Street execs and Congress for fostering universal banking and murky business models. Bush was a horrible leader, decent man, and victim of the business cycle.
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Chuck
““Obviously just cutting taxes and neglecting everything else didn’t work with Bush”
Please stop blaming Bush for everything. It turns people off of your argument. Presidents have negligible impact on the economy. Blame Alan Greenspan before you blame anyone. Blame Wall Street execs and Congress for fostering universal banking and murky business models. Bush was a horrible leader, decent man, and victim of the business cycle.”
Id agree if I was “blaming Bush for everything”. There are a lot of people to blame. I’m saying simply cutting taxes and neglecting infrastructure haven’t helped anything, nor would the same approach help anything now.
Regarding Limbaugh, hes obviously popular, but only to frame the talking points of the day for certain types of people on the Right. He plays to that base of people effectively, but honestly, its not like you hear people dropping his name as a respected Republican mind. Hes sensational, like Fox News, which is great for ratings, but not much else.
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I’m just looking at their pictures and thinking they’re both douche bags. Off topic at this point, but I’m responding to “who is more alpha” that tiresome question roissy keeps forcing upon us.
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“Regarding Limbaugh, hes obviously popular, but only to frame the talking points of the day for certain types of people on the Right. He plays to that base of people effectively, but honestly, its not like you hear people dropping his name as a respected Republican mind.”
I used to hate Rush Limbaugh before I ever listened to his show. I’m a conservative by no means, and my main beef with Rush is that he doesn’t hold his own party to the standards to which he holds liberals. That being said, his core conservative principles are weighty and difficult to argue with. Self-sufficiency and small government being my two favorite.
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“This gets to the heart of my point. The “beta” politician can’t do anything about it at this point in the Game. Therefore, Obama has no reason to panic. If he is panicing, which I don’t believe, he’s doing so irrationally. His opponents have no political traction with which to cause panic. Limbaugh has clout, but not enough to counter Obama’s following.”
—Obama has every reason to panic. His plan—socialistic and poor—needs to pass soon before any signs of recovery come about—otherwise, the public might scrutinize it. he doesn’t want that–and yet that’s what’s going on.
And now that he has the power he arrogantly usurped in the last few months—“office of the president-elect” my ass—he’s finding opposition and can’t deal with. Hence the irrational lashing out at Limbaugh (when Limbaugh wasn’t even part of the national convo on this, and was largely off with his audience on the side) and juvenile posturing with “I won,” which is definitely a childish lash out at the Repubs opposing him.
Limbaugh is right; Obama is looking for bi-partisan support so when hsi stimulus fails, he can point to Repubs as well.
The grabbing is pure desperation, an attempt at overcompensation. I thought this when Roissy showed the picture of Putin/Bush, with Bush putting hand on Putin’s neck: it’s an attempt to show dominance by physically grasping control of something when you’ve lost dominance oversomeone mentally.
It’s the same psychology that causes people to start talking with their hands when excited or panicked. When situations get out of control, and people cannot mentally/verbally retain command, they naturally gravitate to physical attempts to explain/control the issue. It’s our evolution: we were monkeys before we were thinkers, so we revert to monkey-like physical dominance/action when words/brains seem to fail.
Ever notice how poorer people talk with their hands a lot? Why? Because they tend to perceive/feel they have no control over a situation. The guy who doesn’t raise his arms at all is the man in charge. All the wildly swinging hand gesticulations are evidence of poor “grasp” of the situation.
Obama is panicking, or at least distressed, and can’t control himself. It’s definitely a sign of weakness.
For a view on how actual in-charge alphas act, see Joe Pesci in Streets of New York. Doesn’t even have to raise his voice, and we know he’s in charge.
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ricky the beta:
“Id agree if I was “blaming Bush for everything”. ”
—Right. Because all those “not my president” chants were because you were weighing his faults against his successes.
There are a lot of people to blame.”
—For the current recession? Blame the business cycle + dumb bankers+ democrats for ruining a good economy beginning in 2007. I don’t blame house buyers, mainly because housing always ahs booms/busts; the bankers gave them the money.
“I’m saying simply cutting taxes and neglecting infrastructure haven’t helped anything,”
–Cutting taxes defeated stagflation with Reagan and caused the 90s boom. PWNED.
As for these ethereal “infranstructure” arguments—you got nothing but a bridge collapsing in MN. Typical liberal–one thing goes wrong==world ending, you freakin’ chicken littles.
No, the gom’ment doesn’t need to create pay for the shit hole that is Amtrak that you’ll never ride. Our infrastructure isn’t falling apart. Instead of being panicky little bitches, find some specific projects that are in bad shape and we’ll talk.
“nor would the same approach help anything now.”
–No one “neglected: infrastructure, unless by infranstructure you mean “government subsidies of shit that doesn’t work and isn’t important.”
More lies from the left. Gotta love it.
“He plays to that base of people effectively, but honestly, its not like you hear people dropping his name as a respected Republican mind.”
—You know who the most informed people are? People who listen to the following 2 sources: NPR and Limbaugh. Fact, not fiction–they did a survey on that a few years ago. it shocked wittle wiberals wike yourself because its part of your unproven mantra that Rush is an idiot and Republican voters are uninformed.
Limbaugh is incredibly well-informed and teaches his audience as he argues. He is a very well respected mind. He just knows what he’s good at: being a commentator and inspirer, not a politician.
“Hes sensational, like Fox News, which is great for ratings, but not much else.”
–Limbaugh is not sensational like your hero Michael “I make shit up” Moore does. He’s a radio humorist; as he famously said once, it’s his radio skills, not his message, that earns him his bread. He just uses his skills to promote his views.
And sure, the old bastion of left-wing hate, Fox News. Because MSNBC (“Kill the babies, save the criminals) and CNN (“Ted Turner’s mouthpiece, now with a gay anchor!”) are never sensational and are so much more balanced than fox.
Fox is the answer to all the left wing news outlets. You lefties don’t like it and decry it, but you created your own problem there, bitches.
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Chuck:
“Please stop blaming Bush for everything. It turns people off of your argument. Presidents have negligible impact on the economy.”
—Slow clap for Chuck (80s movie clap, for those of you old enough).
“Bush was a horrible leader, decent man, and victim of the business cycle.”
—Disagree on the first part. I think he was a good leader. But considering Chuck has a brain in his head, I’m not going to berate him. I think Chuck will change his mind with hindsight.
Ricky the beta, however, bend over and take that spanking, bitch boy.
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Boring
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Ricky the beta, go hire your usual gigolo for a hot night of ducktaped-face-down-to-a-hotel-bed sexin’.
hipster tool.
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“—Obama has every reason to panic. His plan—socialistic and poor—needs to pass soon before any signs of recovery come about—otherwise, the public might scrutinize it.”
I don’t think we’ll see any light at the end of the tunnel for a long time. Obama’s bright halo and the dire economy will minimize scrutiny of his plans.
“Limbaugh is right; Obama is looking for bi-partisan support so when hsi stimulus fails, he can point to Repubs as well.”
While Dems have done this in the past, I don’t think it is at work here. The beauty of Obama’s relative mandate is that his ass is on the line. That’s why I’m glad a candidate won who has to be held accountable. For the first time in decades, with Obama and a Dem Congress, we have a referendum on liberal-leaning policies. So the theory that Obama is hoping to pin some failure on Republicans is off, and it won’t fly if that were his strategy.
Whether Obama’s man-handling is a sign of desperation or panic is a point I’m going to have to agree to disagree on.
“I think Chuck will change his mind with hindsight.”
Thanks for the slow, backhanded compliment btw ha. I don’t think hindsight can change my view on Bush’s leadership qualities. They can change my view on the correctness and effectiveness of his domestic and foreign policies, but his leadership skills are forever cemented in those 8 years he was in the Oval Office. Bush’s job as executive was to balance media, the electorate, foreign govt, Democrats and Republicans to push his agenda through. Although our media is biased, he ruffled too many feathers and hindered himself impotent. That is bad leadership. During Reagan’s years, despite a liberal media, he was able to get his agenda through. He worked both sides of the aisle and was relatively liked compared to Bush.
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Chuck:
All points are fair, we’ll just play wait and see. Although I think Obama’s really trying for cover–witness all the very public attempts to woo House Republicans that failed. The Repubs finally stood up for some sort of fiscal conservatvism en masse—now, if they do it again in the Senate, we got some genuine competition going on.
Repubs are always best when on their financial issues, because they have lots of bullets in the chamber to fight with on economics (Freidman, Sowell, etc., plus the libertarian economists lean their way more than left-wingy) and they have the talking points of self-determination and bootstrap mentality, which is very appealing to a lot of americans–including immigrants.
Plus they merely have to hold up pictures of able bodied welfare queens on the dole to really piss people off about liberalism.
That’s a sad state from my point of view, because I’m mainly attracted by social conservativism, and only have gradually come around to the financial part. But the pro-life movement hasn’t effectively tackled the problems of its message: 1) creating counter-feminism to destroy the illogical philosophy of feminism and expel it from the indoctrination of women; 2) the wrongful removal of men from any abortion argument; 3) the contradiction between wanting to end the practice of innocent murder versus the refusal to punish mothers who kill; and 4) how to switch to a science based argument rather than religious-based methods of argument (the last, science, is what convinced me).
Republican foreign policy used to be very strong—think Nixon in China, Reagan with Russia. I thought Bush had the right idea for the wrong time: I think America has a mandate to intervene in horrible situations like Iraq was. But the UN/European hate of American hegemony, plus the general inertia of foreign allies to do anything to send troops into battle, really is disgraceful.
Bush was right to invade, and, had people not been so concerned with finding a rationale to express their long suppressed hatred of American hegemony (well before Bush’s presidency), they would have seen that.
But Bush was wrong in not realizing he effectively had to wage 4 political campaigns: 2000, 2004, the war in Iraq pr campaign, and, finally, in 2007-08 for his party’s sake. He did 2 very well, 1 ok at first, and 1 not at all.
Anyway, Chuck, I think Obama is desperate for cover on the bailout, and trying to paint it as bipartisan ship is a ploy. If the Repubs can hold Snowe in check in the Senate—and, even better, grab at least 2 Blue Dogs—then they can force Obama into a corner. If they can stall long enough—maybe a month—and the economy starts to pick up–which I believe it has this month—-then the urge to trim this bill goes up.
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Well. That’s how Rourke looks these days? I remember to be a bit taller and less hairy. But okay.. New times, new styles. I have quite some Rourke-movies from the 80s. Back then, he sure had what it takes to be as famous as Tom Cruise. He sure was a whole damn lot cooler. Angel Heart, Pope of Greenwich Village, Body Heat et al were fine movies. Not great, but good.
To measure alphaness would be to see how long an impression sticks. I’m pretty sure that tomorrow I won’t even know who Chris… Jericho? was or that he was blonde-haired. But I’d still know Rourke was getting into a debate with some young punk.
Rourke is the alpha. On-topic: wrestling (or watching it) is something I’m not to shy about deeming “pathetic”. However, it’s good to see Rourke back in the spotlight. Hopefully, he’ll stick around this time — not in Marlboro Man-type movies, even old fans like me skip that.
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why would mickey be nervous? it’s not like they were in the same building or anything. he clearly doesn’t care one way or the other what numb nutz has to say.
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@lurker
[Woops. I forgot to properly close the blockquote tag. Here’s the proper format.]
@lurker
Dumb Bankers?
They consolidated into massive enterprises that were “too big to fail” by lobbying to relax financial controls enacted after our bitter losses during the Great Depression, they locked in at least 10-20 years of profits built on a bubble they, the politicians and our supposedly brilliant economic experts like Greenspan and Rubin engineered. And when the bubble burst they all pretty much got bailed out and awarded themselves massive bonuses nearly as large as the bubble years.
They don’t sound that dumb to me.
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@lurker
PS. The Republicans are also dirty in this financial crisis, just a little bit less then the Democrats.
Don’t forget Bush’s incessant promotion of millions of new homes for NAMs (non-Asian minorities) with relaxed lending standards like very low down payments.
Also, you SHOULD put a slice of the blame on the borrowers too. People shouldn’t live on the edge of their means and they shouldn’t make high risk loans like ARMs they won’t be able to afford unless they get a flip the property or get big raise in two years.
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@lurker
Plus, not only did these wily, evil and corrupt bastards make out like bandits, almost none of them has been fired!!! And Obama is appointing the same gang again in his Administration! WTF!!!
Why isn’t he cleaning house to flush away most of these proven failures and appointing some of the dissidents who seem to have a much better grasp of the problems?
I predict the current gang will continue to line their own and their buddies pockets. *Cough* *Cough* Goldman Sachs!
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Rourke.
As an analogy, imagine this scenario: 2 grown men are discussing the game Tetris. Guy #1 sits back and watches amused as guy #2 puts an earnest effort into proving beyond doubt that he’s the better Tetris player. Guy #2 is making sure everybody knows that he could beat guy #1 in Tetris, going so far as to point out his own high scores. Guy #1 smirks and admits not really being into Tetris, but good for #2 and his high scores. Now, who’s got the upper hand here?
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well i ll go with rouke .he is really alpha here. and he called jericho ,son . done deal. a lit bit pissed he could make him look like a beta. seriously as said he did sleep with his sister and then not called her back afterwards.
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