Newsflash! You can’t trust a woman’s opinion of other women’s looks. (Hi Chic.)
Everyone loves a pretty face – except those women who might see it as a threat. With eyes on the competition, women of childbearing age rate other attractive women consistently lower than women who have entered menopause, according to a new study.
“It’s almost as if they’re putting down other attractive women,” says Benedict Jones, a psychologist at Aberdeen University, UK, who led the study of 97 middle-aged women.
This explains why so many chicks blab on and on about how “womanly”, “handsome”, “confident” or “sexy” older women look. They are downplaying the real competition — pretty young thangs.
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Even when sober women who drink more are less able to detect male facial asymmetry. So crooked-faced guys should look for female regular drinkers.
Researchers found that women who drink even moderately develop a reduced ability to rate attractiveness in male faces, even when they are sober.
Those who drank were less able to detect male facial symmetry, a marker of attractiveness and good genes which is thought to play an important role in the choice of a partner.
Even 5 drinks per month diminished ability to score facial symmetry. Researcher Kirsten Oinonen at Lakehead University in Thunderbay Ontario expects that women whose minds are altered in this way will find less attractive guys more attractive when their decreased attractiveness is caused by facial asymmetry.
If you’re searching for a wife or husband, stop drinking. Or don’t stop drinking for the rest of your life.
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Badboys, crime, popularity: Natural born ladykillers.
Genes prompt rabble-rouser behavior. But they also foster popularity, according to Alexandra Burt, a Michigan State University behavioral geneticist who released a “groundbreaking study” that suggests good news for bad boys.
Men who had a gene associated with “rule-breaking behavior” were rated most popular by a group of previously unacquainted peers, she found.
[…]
In August, the University of North Carolina also revealed a link between three particular genes and “a life of crime” after following 1,100 teenage boys over a six-year period, clearly establishing a link between the presence of those genes and aggressive behavior.
Such research has had a darker side. The idea that “bad genes” held dangerous sway over some people prompted the Supreme Court in 1927 to rule in favor of the forced sterilization of criminals and mental patients. The court reversed the decision in 1942 as unconstitutional.
These days, researchers suggest that a touch of bad behavior gives men a boost in popularity and with their sexual relationships. Narcissism, impulsiveness and deceit – the “dark triad” – play a definitive role in wooing, according to separate research conducted by both Mexico State University and Bradley University in 2008.
In a way, Game is a system for mimicking the behaviors of men who possess the “badboy genes”. Readers often wonder if alpha is inborn then how much can learning Game accomplish? A lot. If you don’t have a natural musical talent, you can train for a couple years and still wow girls with a few choice tunes on your Fender Strat. You may not go from 4s to 10s, but you’ll go from 4s to 7s. And for most betas, that is like winning the pussy lottery.
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ANTIOCH, Calif. (AP) – As more and more black renters began moving into this mostly white San Francisco Bay Area suburb a few years ago, neighbors started complaining about loud parties, mean pit bulls, blaring car radios, prostitution, drug dealing and muggings of schoolchildren.
In 2006, as the influx reached its peak, the police department formed a special crime-fighting unit to deal with the complaints, and authorities began cracking down on tenants in federally subsidized housing.
[…]
An increasing number of poor families receiving federal rental assistance have been moving here in recent years, partly because of the housing crisis.
A growing number of landlords were seeking a guaranteed source of revenue in a city hard-hit by foreclosures. They began offering their Antioch homes to low-income tenants in the HUD Section 8 housing program, which pays about two-thirds of every tenant’s rent.
If you are seeking an apartment in DC, here is a handy map I found which will aid you in avoiding blocks that are close to Section 8 housing.
Joseph Villarreal, the housing authority chief, said the problems in Antioch mirror tensions seen nationally when poor renters move into neighborhoods they can afford only with government help.
“One of the goals of the programs is to de-concentrate poverty,” Villarreal said. “There are just some people who don’t want to spend public money that way.”
No shit. Because another way of saying “de-concentrate poverty” is “spread the crime”. Villarreal is one of those leftwing social engineering dickbags I will laugh at when he’s hanging from a lamppost after the glorious revolution against the elitist-driven Campaign of Lies has begun.
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You’ll recall Harvard junior Lena Chen as one of our official compulsive oversharers. She’s a sex blogger whose ex leaked naked pictures of her once. Now, in addition to the sex blog, she’s got a more personal blog intended to correct the fact that Chen is “famous on the internet for all the wrong things.” This makes it the perfect venue for pictures of… well, I’ll just say it: of Chen right after getting “a facial.”
When a culture’s sexual strategy shifts to African-style short term hookups and soft polygamy, proud public displays of sluttiness by women become more commonplace. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader why this is so.
***
Best Comment Ever in a story about professional b-ball player Marko Jaric marrying Victoria’s Secret model Adriana Lima. (link provided by G Manifesto)
Really??????? He must have a Chocolate penis that ejaculates cash!
And bon bons for balls.
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Extending the decades of carefree casual sex.
Researchers believe boosting the amount of a naturally forming enzyme in the body could prevent cells dying and so lead to extended, healthier, lifespans.
As I’ve said before, aging should be treated like the cruel horrible disease it is. “Grow old along with me, the best is yet to be” is such a ridiculous ego-saving baldfaced lie. It’s the equivalent of saying “Go ahead and get fat, I’ll still love you.”
***
Some people think this is just splendid.
For more than two centuries, it has been a wannabe among the great world capitals. But now, Washington is finally ready for its close-up.
No longer a jumped-up Canberra or, worse, Sacramento, it seems about to emerge as Pyongyang on the Potomac, the undisputed center of national power and influence. As a new president takes over the White House, the United States’ capacity for centralization has arguably never been greater. But it’s neither Barack Obama’s charm nor his intentions that are driving the centrifugal process that’s concentrating authority in the capital city. It’s the unprecedented collapse of rival centers of power.
This is most obvious in economic affairs, an area in which the nation’s great regions have previously enjoyed significant autonomy. But already the dukes of Wall Street and Detroit have submitted their papers to Washington for vassalage. Soon many other industries, from high-tech to agriculture and energy, will become subject to a Kremlin full of special czars. Even the most haughty boyar may have to genuflect to official orthodoxy on everything from social equity to sanctioned science.
At the same time, the notion of decentralized political power — the linchpin of federalism — is unraveling. Today, once proudly independent — even defiant — states, counties and cities sit on the verge of insolvency. New York and California, two megastates, face record deficits. From California to the Carolinas, local potentates with no power to print their own money will be forced to kiss Washington’s ring.
It is decidedly un-American to submit to such a strong, central federal government. It’s been the goal of our Ivy League gentry for the past 50 years to move America away from the American model and towards a socialist European model, finally culminating in a Banana Republic model. Good times!
Americans may still possess what the 19th-century historian Frederick Jackson Turner described as “an antipathy to control,” but lately, they seem willing to submit themselves to an unprecedented dose of it. A financial collapse driven by unrestrained private excess — falling, ironically, on the supposedly anti-Washington Republicans’ watch — seems to have transformed federal government cooking into the new comfort food.
A terrible enervation has infected the souls of Americans. We are surrendering our essence. We are betraying our own principles.
This lowly status stemmed, to some extent, from what the historian James Sterling Young has defined as the “anti-power” ethos of early Americans. The revolutionary generation and its successors loathed the confluence of power and wealth that defined 19th-century London or Paris. A muddy outpost in the woods seemed more appropriate to republican ideals.
We are importing tens of millions of the peasant class from culturally and genetically antagonistic countries who do not possess a natural instinct towards American-style individualism and distrust of government. Our historical “anti-power” ethos is rapidly being replaced in a great demographic tsunami by a “daddy government” ethos. Way to go, guys!
According to those pictures Marko Jaric seems to have some game. Note the haters commenting in the yahoo article; its beautiful.
Those picture makes me happy even though he is stepping off the cliff into the deep canyon of despair known as marriage.
Lets start placing bets on how long before she legally rapes (I mean divorces) him.
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As far as attractive women judging other women as lower on the attractive scale, it makes sense. When someone has a million dollars, other people who have a million dollars may not seem all that wealthy to you. When you lack the cash, other people seem quite rich. Beauty probably works in much the same way. No cattiness or competiveness even needed.
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It’s going to be an interesting couple of decades, that’s for sure. Some parts of Europe are pretty close to fighting in the streets between immigrants and white nationalists. America is in only slightly better shape.
I imagine there’s some overlap between readership here and over at UR, but for the unaware:
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/
It’s not for everyone. But give it a shot. I’d recommend starting from the beginning:
http://mencius.xmas.ratry.ru/posts
Zdeno
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Marko Jaric is apparently being investigated for sexual assault: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/chris_mannix/03/13/assault/index.html
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Or don’t stop drinking for the rest of your life.
Finally, some practical advice.
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anon:
When someone has a million dollars, other people who have a million dollars may not seem all that wealthy to you. When you lack the cash, other people seem quite rich. Beauty probably works in much the same way.
that’s not what the study shows.
but nice try.
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[W]omen of childbearing age rate other attractive women consistently lower than women who have entered menopause, according to a new study.
This also works in reverse: women can overrate the attractiveness of a not-quite-beautiful woman as well.
I noticed this when my wife sought to match-make her male cousin with a female friend from our church. Unfortunately, I didn’t mentally grasp her intentions until it was too late. I could have told her it wouldn’t go well.
“Why don’t men think that [female friend X] is attractive?” she asked me later.
Let’s count the reasons. 1. She’s well into her 30s, and this fact is starting to show around the edges. 2. While she’s not fat, she’s not Hollywood thin either. 3. These two facts are not sufficiently compensated for by other aspects of her appearance. 4. While someone like Φ would be drawn to her maternal qualities should, God forbid, he need to replace his daughters’ mother, [male cousin]’s priorities are probably like those of most men in his position. 5. [Male cousin], by Φ’s estimation, has both the moxie and patience to get most of what he wants in this regard.
The surprising thing was that Mrs. Φ didn’t perceive all this ahead of time.
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Because another way of saying “de-concentrate poverty” is “spread the crime”.
The problem is that Section 8 was based on the results of the Gatreaux programme, and the big difference between both is that Gatreaux was an optional program with screening and smaller numbers while Section 8 for all intents and purposes has turned into a way for local housing authorities to put the burden of dwelling maintenance and management on private landlords. Plus, Section 8 tends to simply concentrate the poverty into small, less dense cores, and oddly, burdens quiet working class neighbourhoods regardless of race.*
For all intents and purposes, the best thing to do maybe to simply cap the number of Section 8 recipients per town at a certain ratio to ensure that poverty isn’t too concentrated.
*No, not all Section 8 residents are evil criminals and bad people.
proud public displays of sluttiness by women become more commonplace
So that means better looking girls go into porn, right?
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Re: Appletini goggles
It seems at least as likely that women who for whatever reason cannot discern symmetry are more likely to drink. Still kinda cool.
Section 8:
Does it not strike you as odd that America, the most powerful empire to have existed in the history of mankind, able to project enough force to defeat any nation’s armed forces at any corner of the earth – that this empire has no effective sovereignty over large sections of it’s own major cities?
Re: Slut pride
I could not find the Lena Chen porn, unfortunately. As for this week’s homework assignment, when women have nothing to offer aside from their short-term sexuality, their advertising will focus on… their short-term sexuality. Even in a strongly polygamous society, there is still competition for the top .1% of men within the top 5% who get laid. The girls who will be pursued the most will be the ones who are 1) hot 2) fun and 3) easy. Slut Pride is an advertisement of 2 and 3.
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[i]that’s not what the study shows.
but nice try.[/i]
It shows that women who are fertile (and presumably better looking on the whole) tend to rate other women’s looks as lower. I posited that it may be nothing more than someone who already possess a measure of beauty finding nothing remarkable about other possessing it either, and therefore the lower overall ratings from such women. Now that I have looked at the actually study, it doesn’t test for that, or the “catty” explanation that some male scientist came up with either. Any explanation is ossible, or considering that it was a one-time study, it may be a simple outlier. *Shrugs*
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Women are evil. When we get Asian Harvard undergrads (tell me, is there really ANY other kind?) getting Cleveland Steamers, the circle is complete.
Oh, and empty the prisons of violent alphas, give them Assyrian Army discipline until they comply, then turn those not executed for insubordination loose on our enemies.
Hugz!
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On social science “research” :
Your first 3 references were to pop culture summaries of “research” with N=<50, originally done by psychologists, behavioral scientists, and a behavioral geneticist. Those type of studies are done over and over again until the “conclusion” is reached.
On Section 8 housing.
I spoke with the head of HUD Chicago region. He is vying for $220 million in TARP $. ……”to create jobs, like putting up more lighting”. HUD is displacing part of the private housing sector.
On Slut Pride.
I really wish I understood why young women proudly display their sluttiness. I don’t understand it . Sadly, these displays aren’t even sexy. Perhaps it gives them celebrity or popularity.
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Men are worse than women in undercutting the competition, from what I can see. I rarely see a man with even a 7 and conclude ‘he deserves her’. This gets worse the higher up the scale you go, in fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been in a situation where I have concluded ‘he deserves her’. Almost invariably I think ‘she is stupid’ for being with him, even if the man has objective higher value than me, I still feel the emotion that I deserve her and he doesn’t. Male competition is far more ferocious, and more subtle than the stereotypes would have it.
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No it means that women display sexual behavior for their own gender’s status and amusement.
The Chen girl’s website, and her posturing, that of Washingtonienne, perhaps Wonkette (was there not a scandal attached to her before marriage), various other women, who have done sex-related books (the Ballerina detailing her adventures in back-door loving, the various Yale/Harvard/Columbia grads detailing sexual exploits) …
ALL are aimed at women. Not men. The point is not Pr0n. It is exhibiting to other women a status-power display of how cool they are.
Think about that for a minute.
The point of the display is not to attract guys. Or earn money. It’s to gain status among other single women by having the most sex, the most extreme sex, and the most displays of extreme sex and lots of partners.
THAT is a massive shift in behavior.
It also btw assumes that women hold the upper hand in marriage/courtship, like the many NYT Wedding announcements with brides detailing the many sex adventures with former boyfriends, assumes that beta men will be so desperate they will put up with even the most exhibitionist and many-partnered “extreme” behavior (unavailable to the beta guys of course) without question.
In reality, this is likely to produce beta guys who have little investment in the women and end up eternal man-boys who leave when the women loose the last of their looks.
The whole point of monogamous marriage is to build intense emotional bonds to keep couples together after mutual sexual attraction fades. This is just the reality of the human species.
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[i]When a culture’s sexual strategy shifts to African-style short term hookups and soft polygamy, proud public displays of sluttiness by women become more commonplace. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader why this is so[/i]
Three theories.
1. Women are inherintly status seeking- by showing off her sluttiness she increases her status by appearing to conform to the same values of “important” high status women (Paris Hilton, Britanny, etc). In other words- because she is doing the same thing as other high status women she must be as well (status via behavior association).
2. Women really want to be promiscuous sluts- and the break down of culture and sexual strategy shift has allowed them to embrace these desires like a pigs desire to wallow and sunbathe in a plie of shit.
3. Being a slut in public is actually a proven method of generating fame and income (due to those pushing the sexual value shift) provided that you’re pretty enough to make it.
Its probably a combination of all three.
[i]In a way, Game is a system for mimicking the behaviors of men who possess the “badboy genes”. Readers often wonder if alpha is inborn then how much can learning Game accomplish? A lot. If you don’t have a natural musical talent, you can train for a couple years and still wow girls with a few choice tunes on your Fender Strat. You may not go from 4s to 10s, but you’ll go from 4s to 7s. And for most betas, that is like winning the pussy lottery.[/i]
You know- I think at heart I think I have the independent Alpha badboy genes- I just had it both beaten out of me by a dominating military officer father and sucked out of me subconscious by the deluge of masculine should be feminine brainwashing of the 28 years I’ve been alive…. I’m trying to recapture it but its alot harder then it would have been had those inherint values been nutured from the start…. (any tips for doing so are welcome).
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Almost invariably I think ’she is stupid’ for being with him, even if the man has objective higher value than me
I would guess that guys really don’t like it when ugly guys get hot women. I certainly don’t.
Michael Douglas and Catherine Z. Jones = gross.
Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise (and then Lenny Kravitz and now Keith Urban) = the natural order of things (at least in guyworld).
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“neighbors started complaining about loud parties, mean pit bulls, blaring car radios, prostitution, drug dealing and muggings of schoolchildren”
Why would you complain about these things (aside from muggings of schoolchildren)?
Sounds like a fun place to be on a Tuesday night.
– MPM
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whiskey:
“The point of the display is not to attract guys. Or earn money. It’s to gain status among other single women by having the most sex, the most extreme sex, and the most displays of extreme sex and lots of partners.”
I second that.
Some women are exhibiting “male” behavior in their sex lives. Could this have arisen from the fact that they have already assumed “male” behavior in their work lives and gender roles? Or does it stem from a further encroachment of Feminism into our society?
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1) Young women praise the beauty of older women not to district attention from the real competition (i.e. other young women), but to try to make themselves feel better about the prospect of growing old. “See how great actress X looks! Maybe when I’m 40 I’ll be lucky too…”
2) Most of the various peoples in 3rd world countries DO distrust government, although they’re hardly individualists. That kind of bipolar thinking (distrust of gov’t = individualist) often leads to confusion among Americans when there are more than 2 options to choose from. Anyway, distrust of gov’t is why nations like Iraq or Pakistan end up having to be ruled with an iron fist, or risk falling into total anarchy. The trouble is that sometimes when people from such nation-states immigrate to the US, they get access to goodies from the gov’t while still maintaining their distrust of it, so that they may feel no sense of responsibility to it or any other institution.
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Aenigma
“You know- I think at heart I think I have the independent Alpha badboy genes- I just had it both beaten out of me by a dominating military officer father and sucked out of me subconscious by the deluge of masculine should be feminine brainwashing of the 28 years I’ve been alive…. I’m trying to recapture it but its alot harder then it would have been had those inherint values been nutured from the start…. (any tips for doing so are welcome).”
Here are some good proven tips:
Turn off the TV
Wear Custom Suits – preferably Saville Row, or Napoli/Milan
Pick up Smoking Cigarettes
Drink everyday
Travel constantly
Read
Listen to Curtis Mayfield’s “Superfly” album
Work out every- preferably Boxing
Don’t talk, act, dress, or look like “regular guy”
Don’t be afraid of Drugs
Swoop 2-3 fresh new fly girls per week.
Do the above and you should start feeling good about yourself.
– MPM
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http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/03/13/many_boston_teens_surveyed_say_rihanna_is_at_fault_for_assault/
Many Boston teens surveyed say Rihanna is at fault for assault
By Milton J. Valencia and Jenna Nierstedt, Globe Staff and Globe Correspondent | March 13, 2009
Here’s a conversation starter: Nearly half of the 200 Boston teenagers interviewed for an informal poll said pop star Rihanna was responsible for the beating she allegedly took at the hands of her boyfriend, fellow music star Chris Brown, in February.
Of those questioned, ages 12 to 19, 71 percent said that arguing was a normal part of a relationship; 44 percent said fighting was a routine occurrence.
The results of the survey, conducted by the Boston Public Health Commission across the city and equally among boys and girls, are startling for local health workers who see a generation of youths who seem to have grown accustomed, even insensitive, to domestic violence.
“I think you’d have to be pretty jaded if you weren’t startled by it,” said Casey Corcoran, director of the health commission’s new Start Strong program.
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G:
haha. You forgot two further directions:
Rinse balls
Repeat
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Roissy,
Distrust in gov’t is going to increase as our ethno-cultural core dissolves. It just won’t be a distrust shared by all people at all times.
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“Genetically antagonistic” is a real science term so it’s foolish for a bachelor of farts guy to be using that phrase in his blog.
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Roissy, I’m kind of confused what the point of your political commentary is towards the end of this post. In your view, it is “un-American” to submit towards a strong, centralized government. First of all, defining what is “American” and what isn’t is a futile, idiotic exercise as a smart guy like you should know. Second, just because something is “American” (if this could even be established) doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the best course of action. Particularly when many traditional American ideals were established in economic/political climates that do not in the least resemble the modern-day clustefuck of globalization.
“It’s been the goal of our Ivy League gentry for the past 50 years to move America away from the American model and towards a socialist European model, finally culminating in a Banana Republic model.”
It’s confusing why you would think the idea of a “socialist European model” (though few American intellectuals are hardly this radical) is intrinsically dubious, given all the great success that the alternative (unrestrained capitalism) has landed us in.
“We are importing tens of millions of the peasant class from culturally and genetically antagonistic countries who do not possess a natural instinct towards American-style individualism and distrust of government”
This is just embarrassing. You’re way too smart to be saying stuff like this. How could say that peasant class foreigners intrinsically lack the natural disposition towards individualism, when America is almost entirely comprised of people who descended from peasant class immigrants! Also, it is ridiculous to link the current thirst for stronger government primarily to an influx of aliens. I’m pretty sure there are many, many other more salient reasons. Is that how you would plan to explain the election of FDR too?
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It’s confusing why you would think the idea of a “socialist European model” (though few American intellectuals are hardly this radical) is intrinsically dubious, given all the great success that the alternative (unrestrained capitalism) has landed us in.
Yea… it’s landed us in becoming the wealthiest great power in the world. Some deal! Capitalism has booms and busts but forever progresses further. Left to its own devices, the country will be stronger 10 years from now than it is today.
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JM:
“It’s confusing why you would think the idea of a “socialist European model” (though few American intellectuals are hardly this radical) is intrinsically dubious, given all the great success that the alternative (unrestrained capitalism) has landed us in. ”
I have the sneaking suspicion that you are a young, idealistic, college student.
At what point have we ever had unrestrained capitalism in this country? We’ve had a Federal Reserve that manipulates interest rates by buying and selling Treasury bonds, controlling our money supply. The manipulation of interest rates is a root cause of our current recession. Lower than “natural” interest rates (stemming from central planning, read socialism) induce consumers of interest rates (home-buyers) to purchase what they otherwise would not have purchased. The government’s financial sovereignty rests on a Ponzi scheme.
Mix all of that with this business of moral hazard where consumers and businesses engage in risky behavior because they believe someone will bail them out in the long run, and there’s no wonder this economy is in the tank.
We have a government that advertises the value of the “American dream” of buying a home which has the effect of millions of people who had no business buying a home, buying one.
“How could say that peasant class foreigners intrinsically lack the natural disposition towards individualism, when America is almost entirely comprised of people who descended from peasant class immigrants!”
Because they have been exposed to collectivist ideas for generations while Americans have not. Plain and simple.
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JM, first socialism where ever it has been tried quickly degenerates into crony capitalism. Fidel is worth about 4 billion, while his countrymen starve with regularity. Socialism quickly means a “royal” form of government but without a formalized King, though with hereditary leadership.
As such it guarantees violent revolutions periodically as men bottled up in ambition seek to destroy entire nations to rise to the top.
Even fairly mono-racial Sweden is now racked by violence as Muslim immigrants cannot adjust to Swedish values and society, and the Welfare state simply means the transfer of wealth from White majority Swedes to non-White minority Muslims, with overtones of religious and racial conquering of the native White majority. It’s a guarantee of conflict.
America is an Anglo-Celtic-African nation, culturally and demographically. Most immigrants were of middle-lower class origin, quickly assimilated to dominant Anglo-Irish-African culture, and had both the frontier and a rapidly expanding economy to build middle class wealth. The frontier has been closed for over a hundred years, we are not taking middle-working class Germans, Irish, Poles, and Italians, and there is no room for the economy to double every ten years. It’s mature.
Taking in about 40 million Mexicans or so will simply move America to Mexican norms of corruption, mis-trust, violence, ethnic supremacy, oligarchic crony capitalism, and social and economic and cultural progress. Which is to say, a pathetic third world nation. No nation whatsoever has lasted as a Multicultural enterprise, only periodic strong-men like Tito or Saddam keep things in check by liberal applications of bloodshed and genocide (see also: Stalin) and then, well the deluge.
In order for human beings particularly men to work together there needs to be a high degree of trust. Robert Putnam of Harvard (Bowling Alone) shows that not only does diversity lead to hunkering down and distrust, but distrust extends to same ethnic groups. When everyone looks like a very distant relative, trust networks are large and trust is high. When people look very different, trust is just low. This is just science. Yes it’s depressing, no utopian “Small World” from Disneyland. Nevertheless, pretty lies and pretty theories of multiculturalist paradise are about as scientifically valid as creationism or the world being flat or the Sun revolving around the Earth.
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G – you’re proven tips – are they sustainable? I have doubts.
Other than pot, most drugs are borrowing against the future. As is boxing. As are cigarettes.
And as a guy who started drinking at age 11, I can tell you that even that can catch up with you. Now I’m testing out serious heart disease. My heart pounds like a frightened shrew when I’m hungover, only with the thump of a timpani drum.
Not to mention the fact of addiction. It creeps up on you, man.
Conservatives have a point, you know. Moderation is best for long term happiness.
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complete agreement. This is the same reason men praise Sean Connery ,Jack Nicholson, and Clint Eastwood.
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“Even 5 drinks per month diminished ability to score facial symmetry.”
The egghead researchers naturally theorize that beer googles results in women favoring ugly dudes. That’s not quite right.
I say the women with beer googles are more ANIMALISTIC and less inhibited by looks because they go for alphas, regardless of looks.
When the last time you saw a drunk chick leave the bar with an ugly non-alpha?
“Some parts of Europe are pretty close to fighting in the streets between immigrants and white nationalists. America is in only slightly better shape.”
There’s no fighting in the streets because Mexicans are taking over. You can’t fight the inevitable.
It takes the average white person 25 years to reproduce, but the average Mexican only needs 45 years to pump out an additional THREE GENERATIONS of Mexicans.
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Federalism started its slow decline as a result of the Civil War and the resulting constitutional amendments to deal with the aftereffects of slavery. Sixty years later, the onset of the Depression and the New Deal really picked up the pace, and it’s been steadily downhill ever since. Though the ultimate cause of this has been a complex mix of intellectual, economic and social forces, I think the main motivator for most American-style liberals today is the perception of unresolved racial issues. This is why I’m convinced that engaging in discussions with liberals about big government is largely a waste of time, because that issue is just a “proxy” issue, i.e. a stand-in for what really motivates them. Conservatives will continue to slowly lose ground until we address the real issues head-on, which center around unresolved issues of race and discrimination. This doesn’t mean we just talk about it. It means we address the steady erosion of the original meaning of our Constitution directly, by proposing amendments that deal with reparations and affirmative action, clearly describe when discrimination is and is not acceptable, end efforts at criminalization of non-threatening speech toward certain groups, and address the disproportionate power of the mass media in some way. These actions will elicit a strong response from the other side to put it mildly. But we won’t be playing games arguing about proxy issues anymore – the discussion will be genuine and sincere. It may elicit violence as well, but that’s a chance worth taking. The people of America need to officially decide what direction they want the country to take: will it be similar to European Socialism, or will we return to the grand experiment started in 1789? We need to get an answer either way, so we can stop fighting about it.
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“Robert Putnam of Harvard (Bowling Alone) shows that not only does diversity lead to hunkering down and distrust, but distrust extends to same ethnic groups. When everyone looks like a very distant relative, trust networks are large and trust is high. When people look very different, trust is just low.”
That’s why the Chinese will rule the world — not only do they reproduce as fast as Mexicans, they are smarter and all look alike.
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That’s why the Chinese will rule the world — not only do they reproduce as fast as Mexicans, they are smarter and all look alike.
China is in rapid demographic decline.
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“given all the great success that the alternative (unrestrained capitalism) has landed us in.”
what we have now, and had to cause this mess is hardly unrestrained capitalism. banks were “srtongly encouraged” by the government, starting with the clinton administration, to give loans to the sub-prime set, resulting in a large part of this fiasco. government social meddling in the form of increasing home ownership (by making it possible for those who were too irresponsible to own homes normally) caused both the bubble and now its deflation.
the big lie here is the idea that a truly free market failed and we need government intervention. the reality is that government intervention, as always, fucked things up, but the media and the pro-leviathan lefties are using it as an excuse to increase the power of the federal government, yet again.
regarding the fun times in antioch, I used to live there. it’s fucked up there, i’m just surprised this didn’t bubble to the surface earlier. i moved out about a decade ago after seeing the once nice neighborhood i moved into degrade quickly into the kind of hood where people openly smoked out on their front lawns and threw parties that blasted music all night. not wanting to live the movie ‘friday,’ I left.
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by proposing amendments that deal with reparations and affirmative action, clearly describe when discrimination is and is not acceptable, end efforts at criminalization of non-threatening speech toward certain groups, and address the disproportionate power of the mass media in some way.
The problem is that amendments to the matter won’t solve the problem, and will just highlight the differences and lack of success. For all intents and purposes, the only way to get rid of the gap is to dump those who can’t compete and their smarter counterparts with similar racial and physical traits.
America is an Anglo-Celtic-African nation, culturally and demographically. Most immigrants were of middle-lower class origin
Intellectual Leap of Faith: Since you highlighted large ethnic Europeans who immigrated to the US and supposedly assimilated, does this imply that we can do the same with other ethnic groups my stripping off their medium to high IQ wasted talent, or is this something we have to restrict only to white people?
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threw parties that blasted music all night.
That’s actually the biggest change from my old neighbourhood to the new one. When people have parties and outdoor gatherings, you can’t hear the music. My cousin jokingly said she could never live in a neighbourhood like that, and I suspect that’s one of the reasons why some black people refuse to move to white areas.
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xsplat
“G – you’re proven tips – are they sustainable? I have doubts.”
Not sure. But then again what is sustainable?
“Other than pot, most drugs are borrowing against the future. As is boxing. As are cigarettes.”
I would rather be a beautiful comet than a fixed star.
“Not to mention the fact of addiction. It creeps up on you, man.”
No doubt. Even G’s need breaks every now and again. I prefer tropical beaches. And a couple of local girls in bikinis.
“Conservatives have a point, you know. Moderation is best for long term happiness.”
My mother told me “moderation is the key to life”.
She is right about everything.
– MPM
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DA–
Like most free thinking people who aren’t leftist ideologues and/or PC brain fogged (or have successfully struggled to learn to see beyond the pretty lies), I want poverty to be concentrated in only a few areas in a city, and then to stay clear of it.
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Yes, DA, women buy shoes for other women to see.
But you miss the point of why. It’s because women gossip, and through their collusion, can occlude or include men into relationships. They can get tremendous support to throw out a man, or badger him to earn more, or have him put up with crap.
Women are the social fabric, and so a nice red pair of pumps will help her, through her social manipulations and the help of her inferiors, feed her progeny. Imelda Markos can insure her male children will be multiply fucked.
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Pi (cross posted at his blog):
If women like another women’s personality or sense of style, they tend to rate them as more attractive. Also, women seem to be much more forgiving of age in other women.
All of these standards match how women rate the attractiveness of men. Style over genetics? Check. Personality over looks? Check. Not as concerned with age? Check. Women seem to simply transfer their standards for attractiveness for men right over to women without much thought. Therefore, your wife may have been entirely innocent in this regard, merely misapplying her honest standards to her female friend.
(BTW matchmaking from women is usually quite terrible. They are always trying to set you up with their unattractive friends, co-workers etc. I am usually amiable enough to say, “Well, I’ll meet anybody,” by which I mean I am happy to show up at a party or other reasonably large get-together where the other person will be. A couple of times it has been worth my while, but usually not. I refuse to go on blind dates. Fortunately, most women aren’t that keen on them either.)
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Chuck,
Most immigration comes from Mexico, Phillipines, India, Vietnam and China. I wouldn’t call the first three countries centers of collectivist ideas. Vietnamese immigrants also have a distrust of communist government and tend to be affiliated with the Republican Party in the U.S. Even assuming that all five have collectivist history, the 2nd generation of these immigrant are raised in American culture and quickly assimilate into U.S. society.
It’s irresponsible to draw correlation between immigration and a tendency toward bigger or “socialist” government. President George W. Bush — a scion of a white, Protestant dynasty — spearheaded the exponential growth of the national debt and the creation of unnecessary agencies like Homeland Security.
Proponents of a strong federal government extend back to the earliest days of the Republic, including Alexander Hamilton and John Adams — very “un-American” indeed! Ironically enough, Jeffersonians or Democrats were invested in state power. As another aside, it is ironic that today’s Republicans like to tout Lincoln as the founder of their party when the main platform of the Whig-turned Republican Party during the 1860s was the opposition of slavery’s expansion into Kansas and the modernization of infrastructure — decidedly progressive notions by today’s standards!
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Oh, that’s brilliant. I wasn’t even thinking of the Philippine Shoe Queen. I was thinking of the South American tramp who rose to power, as a populist wife. What was her name?
Point being, some parts of my fragmented mind put forth a totally different name than I had in my head – and a more shoe appropriate one.
Fucking kudos on my unconscious fragments. High five.
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xsplat:
Your point sparked something in my brain. I always noticed growing up that boys my age with hot moms always seemed to be popular with other boys (obviously) but also with girls.
This has even been the case when the boy didn’t necessarily inherit his parents genes for attractiveness.
Hate to get anecdotal, but I work with a guy whose mom is drop-dead gorgeous. The guy is kinda goofy with acne and what-not. Regardless, he’s very successful with chicks at school. He does have a little bit of natural asshole game.
Just wondering if anyone else has ever noticed this or if I’m just off in left field.
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leave it to a fascist lefty in MSU wannabe Berkeley land to compare current conditions to 1927. Like we sit on our plantations “whipping darkeys” and euthanizing retards in 2009.
ah, the good old days
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A hot mom is a signal of status, especially if she is a socialite, and not trailer trash.
Absolutely, girls will figure the man has earning potential.
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Yes, DA, women buy shoes for other women to see.
Yes, but when a young average woman sports 3 inch heels, I am aroused. Combine that with acrylic nails, and I’m very sexually aroused. There’s nothing prettier than a french manicured hand and a woman on a nice pair of stiletto heels with a pointy front.
Admittedly, “stripper” heels are more sexual in tone, but not as fashionable and sexy as regular stiletto heels.
I want poverty to be concentrated in only a few areas in a city, and then to stay clear of it.
The theory is that deconcentrating poverty creates a situation where instead of the poor learning social traits from other poor people, they learn it from middle class people. In other words, it’s the SWPL version of making people act “white”.
Yank BET off TV, ban hip hop, isolate them in pools of white middle class kids and you too can get little black kids to think Nirvana is cool.
BTW matchmaking from women is usually quite terrible.
Matchmaking from anybody is terrible. Male friends either dump the girls they didn’t want, and female friends dump their cockblocking friends on you.
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“Most immigration comes from Mexico, Phillipines, India, Vietnam and China. I wouldn’t call the first three countries centers of collectivist ideas.”
They are much more collectivist relative to the U.S. if only because the U.S. is the most individualistic country in the world. It’s ingrained in our culture whereas in others, it’s not.
As far as an aversion to government: I don’t think people from other countries have an innate inability to question government. However, there is a difference between how they view their home government and how they view ours. Obviously, if they are coming to this country, they aren’t afraid of *our* strong central government because they view it as a helping hand. They may view *their* government with disdain, but not the U.S.’s.
“It’s irresponsible to draw correlation between immigration and a tendency toward bigger or “socialist” government. President George W. Bush — a scion of a white, Protestant dynasty — spearheaded the exponential growth of the national debt and the creation of unnecessary agencies like Homeland Security.”
The worst part of George Bush’s socialist or stronger-than-promised central government is that it came wrapped in a cloack of conservatism. Those in foreign countries support a stronger central government out of ignorance. They believe, like liberals in this country, that a stronger central govnerment will directly benefit them. They aren’t schooled in the concepts of “crowding out” and negative externalities of government control.
When they find out more government isn’t the remedy, as Whiskey pointed out, an uprising will ensue.
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“The theory is that deconcentrating poverty creates a situation where instead of the poor learning social traits from other poor people, they learn it from middle class people. In other words, it’s the SWPL version of making people act “white”.”
The reality is that people are more prone to being dragged down than lifted up. One bad apple is all it takes.
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@ Seeking Alpha — America as a whole may be the wealthiest nation, but we suffer from drastic income inequality. And the idea that there are illimitable opportunities for income mobility is a myth.
@whiskey — Your comments about socialism are indeed correct, and I don’t personally advocate adopting that model abruptly and totally. But I think that tempering the current model with interventionist, European sensibilities would be wise. In that sense, I sympathize with those that want to “move towards” the Euro model, away from the current American model. I’m really not interested in debating socialism vs. capitalism or anything like that, I just found it weird that roissy takes the idea of “moving America away from the American model and towards a socialist European model” as intrinsically bad, and fails to explain his reasoning at all. And if he did explain his reasoning, I wouldn’t necessarily argue with it…I’m kind of just genuinely interested in what he has to say on the matter, given his excellent analysis of game, female psychology, and various cultural phenomena.
Also, whiskey, I agree completely with most of what you had to say about immigration. I am in fact rather conservative on immigration. I just found it really absurd that roissy would attribute the current climate of thirst for stronger government with the large influx of immigrants. It just seems like really shoddy reasoning.
@chuck — You got me there. Unrestrained capitalism was a poor characterization. Whatever you call the American model of the last 15-20 years, where investors and speculators are encouraged to do whatever they want with ordinary folks’ retirement money, knowing that in a crisis taxpayer’s can bail them out, and where consumers, often getting the short end of the stick in wages due to globalization, are encouraged to overreach on their credit because their assets constantly appreciate in value (due to dubious inflationary schemes, which have indeed been engendered by gov’t intervention)–well, that model seems bad and whereas the euro seems a bit more sane.
In any case, I really don’t want to debate big gov vs. little gov or anything like that…I really was just confused by what roissy was getting at.
Chuck, you are right that I am young. Not a college student, though I’ve been out for only a year. Idealistic, maybe in certain respects, but I’d like to think my views are somewhat of a mixed bag. At the very least, I can tell you that as a big fan of this blog I’m thoroughly anti-feminist and anti-PC in general. And as I said above I’m pretty conservative on immigration policy. On the other hand, I’d rather have an egalitarian, euro influenced, daddy-style gov’t than a libertine free for all. You can use those facts against me as much as you’d like.
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Damn, it must suck to be white in America given that the sky is falling and shit.
I’m gonna take a page from the G and say that when the revolution comes and the streets are drowning in the blood of pigmy Mexican drug runners, spineless Anglos, and special ed thug life brothas, you will find me far away on a foreign beach, a glass of Balvenie scotch in one hand and the other hand ocupied by the Latin hottie of the day.
Peace.
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de Tocqueville–said a lot of things I was trying to say but in a much more articulate manner.
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@ Seeking Alpha — America as a whole may be the wealthiest nation, but we suffer from drastic income inequality. And the idea that there are illimitable opportunities for income mobility is a myth.
And our poor are better off than the poor in any part of the world and our middle class are better off than any part in the world.
We may have income inequality, but all classes here are better off than all classes elsewhere.
And income mobility is 100% alive and well. Nothing stops a smart poor kid from making it big. My entire family – on both sides – is testament to that. In my generation, my friends are also a testament to that.
You’re talking standard liberal talking points without any experience in real life. I’m guessing you’re a sheltered rich kid.
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And it is done by putting people who pay rent/mortgage next door to people who do not pay rent/mortgage. Sure it works to scare the shit out of a person so they have to come up with a way to escape. I guess it helps some normal people not get complacent as you drive them with your whip but then you also have the poblem of now you have created a larger group of people then there normally would have been who if a dictator arises and looks for someone to blame everything on, it will be easier to do. Seems like a setup for a future dictator to make their grab for power super easy.
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It’s irresponsible to draw correlation between immigration and a tendency toward bigger or “socialist” government.
No, it is not irresponsible. The more diverse a place is the more government is needed to keep the peace and divide up the spoils.
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“we suffer from drastic income inequality”
what a fucking concept.
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“*No, not all Section 8 residents are evil criminals and bad people.”
Only 95% are!
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Guys must do something similar in under-rating the high-scoring competition. For example, I’m 28. When I ask girls to guess my age, they think 22 or 23. When I ask guys, they consistently guess a year or so younger, 21 or 22. It’s like they’re questioning my maturity — what would give them that idea in the first place, I don’t know.
*
So if you’re good-looking, you should avoid bar-flies, who won’t be able to appreciate you.
*
Why are sex celebrities always the last people we want to see in that, er, position? Sex therapists, organizers of the Masturbatathon, and now Lena Chen — some ugly annoying Asian bitch.
Even the wild child hotties like Rosario Dawson aren’t even 1/100 as exhibitionistic as the sex celebrities, let alone the truly stunning like Audrey Hepburn.
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@Seeking Alpha
“And our poor are better off than the poor in any part of the world and our middle class are better off than any part in the world.
We may have income inequality, but all classes here are better off than all classes elsewhere.”
For me, this doesn’t make it any less ridiculous that the top 5% of Americans have about a third of the wealth. Some people (e.g., SWPLers, who in this case I guess I do side with) are bothered by that, some aren’t.
“And income mobility is 100% alive and well. Nothing stops a smart poor kid from making it big. My entire family – on both sides – is testament to that. In my generation, my friends are also a testament to that.”
This simply isn’t supported by any of the empirical evidence I’m aware of. If you want, you can engage me in an argument about how universities are just liberal brainwashing institutions, and how all science is “theory-laden” and designed to confirm ideological preconceptions, and so on, and as much as I like the subversiveness of such arguments, I’ve yet to find any really convincing. This is probably a really stupid move, and is going to make me look stupid, but here’s a real user friendly graphic about income equality from the NYB times. (If you have evidence that this study was dubious, let me know and I will happily retract my support of it).
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_01.html
As you see, SOME people can climb the economic ladder, like you and your family, but most don’t. One imagines a lot genuinely talented people don’t.
“You’re talking standard liberal talking points”
And you’re rebutting with standard conservative talking points.
“without any experience in real life.”
What do you mean exactly by “experience in real life”? We’re debating an intellectual issue. Unless you’re at the high levels of gov’t or business, who really has “real life experience” in this stuff? Isn’t it at least passable to read the literature about it, and then debate it? What experience should one have before he starts to feel confident and comfortable discussing this kind of stuff?
“I’m guessing you’re a sheltered rich kid.”
I won’t make any personal assumptions about you if you don’t make any about me. I’m not sure what constitutes being “sheltered.” By some definitions I could be. And relative to the rest of the country/world, I am from a rich family. I don’t see how this affects the content of my opinions, but I’ll let you play the pop-freudian so frequently chided on this blog all you wish.
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I disagree that individualism and small government made us great. That’s the era of Reagan / Thatcher up through Clinton and Bush II. The golden age of American capitalism was the Long Boom from 1947 to 1973, when there was a bipartisan consensus about big government spending and looking the other way at creative monopolies like AT&T’s Bell Labs, who basically invented every bit of the modern electronics.
The key is what we’re going to spend all those public funds on — in the ’50s and ’60s, they developed the internet, aerospace, information criteria, etc. Toward the end of the Long Boom, it shifted to wasteful shit like the Great Society.
Of course Obama is just another Great Society dumbass, but the problem isn’t big government spending, but what it’s being spent on. No one cares about inventing shit anymore, whether theoretical (information theory, cryptography, etc.) or applied (transistors, internet, etc.).
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Whiskey,
Interesting thoughts wrt immigration. I’m familioar w/Putnam’s work, and I just wanted to point out that, insofar as Mexicans are concerned, there seems to be no organized, concerted effort to “Americanize” them. This can be said of other non-White immigrants as well-for example, I was listening to NPR the other day, where they were talking about young Somali Men & boys, going to wage Jihad in their homeland. The FBI now considers such young men as potential terrorists. Minnesota is a state that has quite a subtantial Somalian community, and just like the Pakistani youth in the UK, the problem seems to be that there was no concerted effort taken to assimilate these young Men. It’s almost like we Americans assume that such immigrants will assimilate themselves. If the current scene is any indication, we were wrong.
So, it seems to me, that we need to be much more diligent in making sure immigrants learn our values, folkways and so on. Merely leaving it up to the tube, etc, aint gonna get it.
Also, your characterization of the USA as an “Anglo-Celtic-African” inspired/informed society/nation is a very interesting one, because while I can definitely see the “Anglo” and “African” sides, I’m having a bit of trouble w/the “Celtic” one. Could you please explain a bit on what you mean?
Dave Alex’s observation, about lower/underclass African Americans and Section 8 are interesting; why not try to instill in them solid middle class values-which, I might add, aren’t so much a racial construct, as much as it is a social one? Clearly, being around others influences you, after a period of time, for better or worse, yes? I think the problem w/Section 8, as I understand it, is similar to the immigrant problem-there is no organized and sustained effort to “Americanize” said lower/underclasses. As a few others here have mentioned, as soon as a few Blacks/Browns move into the area, they move. This is not thinking like a citizen in the sense that they want to make an effort to help those people become better Americans; they’re instead thinking in terms of pure self-interest, and getting hell outta Dodge.
America works in part because it is predicated on the idea that in theory at least, *anyone* can BE an American, unlike in the UK, where you can be English, but not British (or is it the other way around?); or in France, where you can live there your whole life and still not be embraced as a Frenchmen, because your name and face is too exotic and dark; same deal w/Germany. The key idea about America, and I hate to drop a bomb on my White Brothers, is that we are NOT A NATION bound by blood or DNA, but by IDEAS.
I am, in every way, an American-by birth, by creed, culturally, socially. I share more in common w/Whiskey or even Roissy, than I do w/some of the other posters here who are from and still reside in other countries. I believe in the rule of law; representative government; freedom of speech and assembly and association. I believe in the free market system. I believe in God, and believe that ours is a unique nation in the world because of His Hand, not in spite of it.
Now, my particular background, as an African American, only embellishes on the above, enriches it, not detracts from it. The Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement, made us a better nation than we were before, because it was those two periods in history when the great ideals of America, became a great reality, a great truth.
So I roundly reject the murmers of some in the forum, that because a person is a “NAM” he or she is inherently incapable of being an American. Those same voices only a few decades ago, said the very same thing about me and mine.
And they were wrong.
The Obsidian
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No one cares about inventing shit anymore, whether theoretical (information theory, cryptography, etc.)
Are you crazy agnostic lol what about reverse engineering shit to break in a short time so that people would have to buy another. That guy was a genious for making moeny.
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“You know- I think at heart I think I have the independent Alpha badboy genes- I just had it both beaten out of me by a dominating military officer father and sucked out of me subconscious by the deluge of masculine should be feminine brainwashing of the 28 years I’ve been alive…. I’m trying to recapture it but its alot harder then it would have been had those inherint values been nutured from the start…. (any tips for doing so are welcome).”
You can’t beat the alpha out of an alpha you can only kill him.
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“Roissy
Americans may still possess what the 19th-century historian Frederick Jackson Turner described as “an antipathy to control,” but lately, they seem willing to submit themselves to an unprecedented dose of it. A financial collapse driven by unrestrained private excess — falling, ironically, on the supposedly anti-Washington Republicans’ watch — seems to have transformed federal government cooking into the new comfort food.
A terrible enervation has infected the souls of Americans. We are surrendering our essence. We are betraying our own principles.”
Because Americans can no longer count on falling back on family. Old days shit got crazy they could still feed themsleves and maintain some dignity. Now where are people going to fall back to. It is a little tougher when no one produces there own food when the grocery store shuts down.
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JM
Let’s start here:
I won’t make any personal assumptions about you if you don’t make any about me. I’m not sure what constitutes being “sheltered.” By some definitions I could be. And relative to the rest of the country/world, I am from a rich family. I don’t see how this affects the content of my opinions, but I’ll let you play the pop-freudian so frequently chided on this blog all you wish.
That’s perfectly fair. My comment wasn’t. I’m actually guessing I have the same background and age as you anyway, so I was being hypocritical.
For me, this doesn’t make it any less ridiculous that the top 5% of Americans have about a third of the wealth. Some people (e.g., SWPLers, who in this case I guess I do side with) are bothered by that, some aren’t.
You’re making the classic mistake of assuming the amount of wealth is fixed and we can allocate it in a ‘fair’ way. The only other option is to make everyone poorer, in all classes, just like the rest of the world. There is no magic fairy-tale land where everyone is equal and everyone is wealthy.
What do you mean exactly by “experience in real life”? We’re debating an intellectual issue. Unless you’re at the high levels of gov’t or business, who really has “real life experience” in this stuff? Isn’t it at least passable to read the literature about it, and then debate it? What experience should one have before he starts to feel confident and comfortable discussing this kind of stuff?
What I meant by experience is in my life – both family and friends – I’ve known people who came from modest circumstances and become successful. Nothing ever stood in their way.
As one example, take a college friend from Harlem. Single mother. Grew up in housing projects. Got financial aid and scholarship to my business school. Is currently climbing the corporate ladder.
Another would be my family. My grandfather was a construction worker, my grandmother a secretary. Neither went to college. Both my dad and his brother went to shitty colleges – no fancy names. My father is very well-off now and my uncle is rich by any definition. There were never given a hand-up. They had drive and intelligence.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_01.html
As you see, SOME people can climb the economic ladder, like you and your family, but most don’t. One imagines a lot genuinely talented people don’t.
I didn’t really understand what that chart had to do with income immobility. But let’s back away from the theoretical and statistics, because there are always theories and statistics that support both sides of a debate.
What practical limitations stop anyone from being successful other than intelligence and drive?
The only possible limitation I can see is a good education. Now a good education is not necessary to be successful (re: my family example), but it certainly helps. But then the biggest problem there is the public education system, which guarantees that the richest areas have the best schools.
So the very people that rail against class immobility (Democrats) are the same ones that help keep it in place.
I hope that all came out civil. You seem open to reasonable argument and this is interesting.
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“Celtic”
I suspect Celtic refers to the Scottish/Scots-Irish pool of immigrants who basically showed up on the same day we started imported Africans. I don’t think he’s refering to Irish Catholics.
Interestingly, if you omit Africans, you still end up with Australia, and if you add Francophones and reduce German heritage, you end up with Canada.
Of course, noting America’s African heritage brings an interesting dilemma. If America could churn and create some degree of Americanness in Africans, why is it magically impossible to do so with Mexicans?
they’re instead thinking in terms of pure self-interest, and getting hell outta Dodge
Admittedly, I understand their point. I mean, it’s one thing if there’s a couple of poor, quiet families in an area. It’s another when your neighbourhood changes scope and moves from being a middle class or even working class area to a poor ghetto regardless of race.
No one cares about inventing shit anymore, whether theoretical
Inventing shit tends to cut into profits on the corporate side*, and doesn’t immediately cure racial ills on the public policy side. OTOH, it puts scientists and engineers to work.
*Bell Labs worked because AT&T was a regulated monopoly with consistent profits and investors who weren’t too greedy. Thus, AT&T had money to blow on playing with new tech, and the bonus was that some of the new tech could be used to simplify and improve operations. Regardless, none of the stuff had to immediately justify itself in terms of profits.
BTW, Alcatel-Lucent has stated that Bell Labs will be pulling out of basic science research, and will restrict Bell Labs to only projects that will have a commercial purpose.
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Gunslingergregi:
“You can’t beat the alpha out of an alpha you can only kill him.”
Then how would his alpha genes get passed on? Yours is a recursive statement that makes no sense.
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@JM
That graph has nothing to do with income mobility. I got off a bus at Parris Island with less than $2 in my pocket, many years ago. I’m in that top 20% of all those categories.
When the phone rings at night, and I have to go in to work, you’re still sleeping. When the paycheck comes in, I earned it, not you. So pardon me if I don’t care that things aren’t equal, because they’re not.
What experience should one have before he debates this stuff?
What’s to debate? It’s my money, not yours. I don’t have it all, there’s nothing stopping you from doing what I did. The Marine Recruiter will talk to you, honest.
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Thing about upward mobility is you can work at mcdonalds or any shit job and achieve it. Just work twice the hours of everyone else and save the difference.
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Well no one could have beaten me to do what they wanted hence my you can’t beat the alpha out of an alpha they could have only killed me and that might have been counterproductive to my parents goals.
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“Thing about upward mobility is you can work at mcdonalds or any shit job and achieve it. Just work twice the hours of everyone else and save the difference.”
This gets to the heart of what is different between our relatively capitalist society and that of socialist Europe. America’s is the most upwardly mobile society in the world.
One thing holding America back, in terms of income inequality, is the SWPL attitude that those at the lower end of the economic spectrum are justified in their anger. Perhaps the system isn’t exactly in their favor, but they need to realize the alternative. In Mexico, India, even Europe a person is much more destined to follow the path they are born in to. Corruption and governmental red tape maintains that status quo.
The SWPL justification leads to complacency, laziness, and hopes for handouts. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy of those at the lower end of the ladder remaining there. I understand it’s hard. My mother made $18000 a year raising my brother and I, with no child support from my dad and no government assistance besides a cheap mortgage. But, I, along with my brother, never met *any* resistance in our attempts to climb the economic ladder.
It’s no wonder then, given the liberal mass’ being told they should be angry, causing them to give up, that the U.S.’s Gini coefficient (a measure of income inequality) has risen from 39.7 in 1967 (shortly after Great Society) to it’s current 46.3.
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One thing I’ve always wondered: why is it that the rugged-individualist states of the US receive more federal money than the collectivist states (I’m talking about Alaska)? Any wonder why?
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Thursday — your point is slightly off-base.
Roissy argued that immigrants have a cultural disposition toward big government. I countered that (1) many recent immigrants do not come from socialist countries and (2) that it’s irresponsible to say that only immigrants support big government when many white Americans like President Bush or even Federalists like Alexander Hamilton and John Adams have supported a strong central government.
Your point is that government necessarily needs to get bigger to manage a multitude of ethnicities. Perhaps true but not related to the previous discussion. I think you saw my use of the word “correlation” but didn’t understand the thread.
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Obsidian: As a middle-class Asian guy, I think I have more in common with you and guys like Roissy than rich, self-indulgent PC white liberals like JM
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Speaking of tangential, I read an article that alludes to an argument that undermines the notion that excess calories = obese.
http://www.utne.com/2008-01-01/Politics/The-Food-Police.aspx?page=2
“Michael Gard and Jan Wright’s exhaustive review of research shows that the notion that weight gain results from a surplus of calories has not been borne out; at best, caloric metabolism appears to explain less than half of body size variation”.
I only bring it up because I know there was a discussion here recently about calories and weight and many people seemed convinced that fat people could lose weight simply by eating less.
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“why is it that the rugged-individualist states of the US receive more federal money than the collectivist states (I’m talking about Alaska)? Any wonder why?”
sure, the people in those states tend to have a more rugged-individualist bent, but those running the government don’t. also, there are vast expanses of land. subsidies given to owners of such land amount to billions of dollars per year. also, the top four states on the list, all of their legislatures are relatively corrupt, especially alaska.
here is a table of tax dollars paid versus tax dollars received. it goes to show you how stupid some liberals are given that most of the blue states give out much more than they get back. if they really cared about making a difference in society, why not keep their tax dollars at the local level (by voting for candidates that support decreasing tax burdens). that way their money doesn’t have to run through the gauntlet of government bureaucracy, being returned to them at pennies on the dollar after the leeches in washington get their cut.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html
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http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/the_case_for_small_government.php
A relevant article by the Atlantic’s Ross Douthat on the debate between American small government and Euro-socialism.
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One thing holding America back, in terms of income inequality, is the SWPL attitude that those at the lower end of the economic spectrum are justified in their anger.
Haw haw, funny joke. Income inequality is not caused by SWPL attitudes, but low IQ. Low IQ in a high IQ society is the equivalent of putting water in a gas tank, and hoping the car will start.
But, I, along with my brother, never met *any* resistance in our attempts to climb the economic ladder.
You’re white and of moderate to high IQ. You are capable of success.
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de Toqueville:
there are others on this board who are much more knowledgeable about the calorie in, calorie out myth, but i’ll give a try at showing the faultiness of the reasoning:
2000 daily calories of a diet rich in red meat, fish, and vegetables is better for you than a 2000 calorie diet rich in corn-based processed foods, meat, carbs, vegetables.
processed foods, especially the starchy, carb ones slow down the metabolism. they increase insulin levels in your body that lead to all kinds of health problems down the road.
check out art de vany’s website for more.
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“We are importing tens of millions of the peasant class from culturally and genetically antagonistic countries who do not possess a natural instinct towards American-style individualism and distrust of government. Our historical “anti-power” ethos is rapidly being replaced in a great demographic tsunami by a “daddy government” ethos. Way to go, guys!”
True, sad, but so true.
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Seeking Alpha, I can’t get that link to go to the exact graph I wanted to show you. Right above where it says “Education” in bold black, you’ll see “Income Mobility.” It shows how only 1/40 of people in the bottom 5th of wealth managed to rise to top 5th of wealth. Only 3/40 managed to rise to second top 5th. (Writing this out is kind of confusing, I know…uh, just look at the graph).
“What practical limitations stop anyone from being successful other than intelligence and drive?
The only possible limitation I can see is a good education. Now a good education is not necessary to be successful (re: my family example), but it certainly helps. But then the biggest problem there is the public education system, which guarantees that the richest areas have the best schools. ”
Education, I think, is indeed the biggest practical limitation, even though it is not necessary to be successful. (However, it sure makes it a hell of a lot easier to take out a loan on your smart small business venture when you’ve graduated from a decent university, as opposed to being some kid from the ghetto who dropped out of high school.) Like many other commentators, I don’t support hand-outs, welfare, and other subsidies to *individuals*, but rather, more wide-ranging measures (e.g., better public schools, areas for recreation, etc) that would ideally have a positive effect on the community at large, and by extension, the more affluent areas that surround poorer areas.
I agree with you that the public education system as it stands disporpotionately favors the wealthy–often the very same people who rail against income inequality. And I also recognize that, as you point out, fixing such a broken system would result in making all classes poorer. Personally, I feel that most of top 5% could afford it. Not everyone instinctively, or intellectually identifies with that kind of ethical obligation, and that’s a fine disagreement. The SWPL culture has certainly done it’s best to make all forms of altruism seem completely repulsive to most independent thinkers.
Anyway, I’ve gone way deeper than I wanted to go with this, and since I’m getting off work in 15 minutes I think I’m going to stop.
@secret asian guy–Actually, it seems like you do have something significant in common with rich, self-indulgent PC white liberals: rather than engage with the arguments and ideas of people who disagree with you, you revert to crassly, and inaccurately, insulting them. If you’d have read my comments, you’d have seen that I am in fact quite far from PC, re, I am big fan of, and largely agree with, the contents of this blog. Beliefs about economic theory and beliefs about cultural issues like feminism need not both be consistent with certain ideological tracts (the contemporary liberal one). Also, it’s still unclear to me how being white, and born into a rich family (something I could control as much as your secret Asianness) should affect the intellectual content of my opinions. Perhaps a “noble savage” will explain it to me one day.
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to: JM, agnostic, Obsidian
Many consider the period from 1940 to 1970 to be a golden era for the USA. It was certainly a time of great improvements in blue-collar and middle class lives.
It was also a time of low and controlled immigration. During this period immigrants had the same or higher skill and education levels (thus adding to average US human capital). I don’t think this is just a coincidence.
Many consider the period from 1970 to now to be a period of stagnation. It has been a period of widening income disparity and slower progress for blue-collar and middle class families.
This was a time of high and uncontrolled immigration. During this period immigrants had the same or lower levels of skill and education (thus lowering average US human capital). I don’t think this is a coincidence either.
The reason we were able to assimilate previous groups (aside from the lack of multi-culti thinking) was that there was a pause in the flow. It is the pause that refreshes!
And don’t be fooled by all that talk about needed skills and lack of US talent.
The story below is about a PhD who drives a van because he cannot find work in his field.
[ http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081011/NEWS/810110328 ]
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“Haw haw, funny joke. Income inequality is not caused by SWPL attitudes, but low IQ. Low IQ in a high IQ society is the equivalent of putting water in a gas tank, and hoping the car will start.”
Further brainwashing by egalitarian SWPL elitists. They’ve convinced those that do have low IQs that they are inherently on the same level as those with high IQs. They aren’t, but that doesn’t make them any less valuable as humans. It’s the SWPL that are placing value on career achievement and income. If a guy has a IQ that makes him suited to only be a janitor then he should do that. I won’t think any less of him for it, and it’s a better alternative for him than to listen to the SWPL’s bs that he deserves better than his relatively worse economic situation, thereby either dropping out of the job market or resorting to class warfare.
“You’re white and of moderate to high IQ. You are capable of success.”
First, I know many guys with lower IQ than me who are faring much better financially. They sought the trade route or something right out of high school whereas I thought college would make me financially sound. Second, a black man with an IQ equal to mine would almost certainly be guaranteed a much more prosperous financial future.
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As I’ve said before, aging should be treated like the cruel horrible disease it is.
The fact that many people do not agree with this has always been incomprehensible to me.
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Thursday said, “BTW matchmaking from women is usually quite terrible. They are always trying to set you up with their unattractive friends, co-workers etc.”
It is possible for a woman to be sensitive enough to men’s needs to “translate” when looking at another woman. I’m usually pretty good at hooking my friends up. The problem often ends up being personality incompatibility, not looks.
They’re madly hot for one another for about 2 weeks, and then it all goes to hell because (being independent or relatively independent thinkers) the two wills clash. Sometimes it works out though.
I’ve learned to put them together based on relative dominance and relative submissiveness, and the success rate rose.
Women also have to disregard both their male and female friends’ speeches about what they want. If a guy says he doesn’t care about looks, he doesn’t really mean that. What he means is that he has particular fetishes or preferences that may not be mainstream, but are clear needs for him to consider someone attractive.
I have a male friend, for instance, who is a tall man and likes tall women. Though he may shag a short one, the relationship would also be short lived. He has actually tried to stay with short women who were very nice, but something just always didn’t click.
People might consider that superficial, but I dealt with this when I was fat. There’s a line in _Thus Spake Zarathustra_: “What does your body say about your soul?”
I lived for years in a body that, with clothes on advertised, “I am a culinary Cenobyte.” With my clothes off, a fat fetishist would have classed me as having quite oddly compartmentalized fat, but with clothes on there was no way for a guy to know that I actually had elbows and knees with no creases above them.
Then as I lost weight, I also lost some admirers who apparently liked the overly volutptuous Cenobyte…most recently, my protege. 😦
The people both who blew me off and who were the moths to my flame, did not see my soul because the body that carries it was disproportional to it. As I become more me physically, it’s easier for people to see who I really am: a tough little wannabe cyborg.
What tall people have in their souls that short people don’t, or short people have that tall people don’t, or fat people have that skinny people don’t, etc…apparently makes a difference. So looks are important in a way that maybe people don’t understand, but in my experience, is not to be overly manipulated by “shoulds”.
I just thought I’d put that out there before anyone else started shouting about how women aren’t catty but men are just shallow.
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Whiskey,
Nice post of the reasons for the public displays of female sluttiness.
Personally, I do not find sluttiness attractive. Sure, at one time a slut seemed like a fun time, but now I am simply tired of dealing with messed up chicks, their dramas, and risks of STDs. The girl mentioned in the initial post is a sad creature. Like most of the girls who post their sexual exploits online she needs a heavy dose of anti-depressants to get her through her sexually liberated day. The whole thing is pathetic really.
Roissy mentioned the soft polygamy and hooking up culture of Africa. Do we really want to emulate Africa for social mores? No offense against the native born blacks of America, but Africa is the most fucked up continent in the world. Lets not go there socially.
Despite all the “coolness” of public sluttiness these days, there are still a few things that all women fear. One is to be called, or thought of as “fat”. The other is still being seriously thought of as a “slut”. Women are easily shamed. If you dig beneath the surface even of the most publicly slutty girl, you will still find this. They often use the most twisted, convoluted inner logic to deny that they are in fact not being slutty when that is what they are in fact being. Rather, they think they are being liberated, sophisticated, cool. They have to think this because they know, like we all know, that no man would ever spend his resources seriously on a slutty girl, except for a quick fuck. One thing this blog hints at is the desire for that a lot of guys have for decent women. Slutty girls also know that there are in fact some girls out there who are not sluts and unafraid to shame the girls who are. The angriest, most unhappy women I have ever met were the sexually promiscuous ones. The nicer girls were the ones who were not in fact sluts.
The greatest weapon men have in dealing with all this is simply to walk away from such girls. Do that and you have taken away all their power, at least over you. Trust me, there are some decent chicks still left out there, although they are becoming more and more rare these days.
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As Roissy said earlier, America is finished. Absent a radical turnaround in how things are run here, it’s one of three options in the future:
(1) staying in the niche I successfully built for myself here in the USA so far, loving life and people close to me and wistfully watching the old America disappear in front of my eyes, but remaining extremely cynical about this corrupt system that’s run by criminals;
(2) back to my native Eastern European country where I own property, the landscape makes your heart bleed with its beauty and history whispers in every stone and head of wheat, and the people are awesome;
(3) somewhere in Latin America, having a caipirinha with The G Manifesto, talkin’ to the younguns about swooping girls, while flirting with the waitresses.
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Dave Alex,
I’m a bit reluctant to take the IQ/Bell Curve and run with it. True, IQ *is* important-but it’s not the end all/be all, and I think with the current economic meltdown going on around us, would be proof enough of that.
Sailer addresses this in his articles-the problem is that we have an open contempt for those who are more blue-collar inclined. As perhaps the only “out” Blue Collar Prole here (and many other venues I frequent online) I can personally say from experience, that the contempt Sailer describes in his writings is real. People assume that beause you wear Dickies to work you only have half a brain and your knuckles drag on the floor. And its something that permeates nearly every level and endeavor of American life. Guys like Half Sigma blame the fall of Western Civ on “proles” especially ones that look like me. And in most internet venues, including this one, there isn’t even a mention of knockaround guys like me. It all comes accross as a bunch of self-indulgen navel gazing, w/some periodic hatin’ on folk you’ll rarely meet and never really know for good measure.
As Sailer has noted, and I definitely agree, the hatin’ aint going from Prole to Professional/Elite, but the other way around; most proles are good people, admittedly with their share of flaws, but basically good people, just trying to get by. They are NOT the problem. The problem comes from those who feel that they are, by dint of birth and position, inherently better than everyone else, and especially the proles, and do everything they can to make their lives difficult. Then, some of them turn around and do som do-goodery in order to make themselves feel better.
Not so long ago, a guy coming out of highschool could get a job at the coal mine or construction company or the automotiv plant and be able to get a home, a wife and put his kids in college; today, there are few if any places that same guy could go. We’ve pissed on millions of guys like this, Dave. We continue to piss on em. Why?
Only now when the Titanic’s bow is about to go under, do the rich folks on top start giving a damn about financial institutions going belly up, guys like Maddoff taking folks for everything they got, and White Collar jobs being outsourced to Ireland and India. A strange thing happens when one’s Ox gets gored, hmm?
The American Experiment is in serious trouble alright, but not exactly in the way that one would think; we’ve all but gutted our country’s Working Class, and that same cancer is now eating away at our nation’s solidly Middle Class, too. Note how we don’t even address the former anymore; its all about “the middle class”.
Oh, there’s a Class War going on alright. And the slings and arrows aint coming from the Proles, but the Elites.
Trust me on this. I see it everyday.
What’s the saying about how when they came for so and so, I did nothing; and by the time they came for me, there was nobody around left to stop them?
Yea. Its something like that.
The Obsidian
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This paper compares income mobility between US and europe:
http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Reports/Economic_Mobility/Economic_Mobility_in_America_Full.pdf
Income mobility is much greater in Europe than in the United states. Page 40 of the pdf gives the numbers.
In denmark, if your parents are in the bottom quintile of income, you have a 25% chance of remaining in the bottom quintile and a 14% chance of making it to the top quintile.
In the US, if your parents are in the bottom quintile of income, you have a 40% chance of remaining in the bottom quintile and a 8% chance of making it to the top quintile.
A big part of this effect is because the upward income mobility of blacks and second generation offspring of immigrants is low.
Page 76 of the pdf give the income mobility numbers for whites in the US. For whites in the US, if your parents are in the bottom quintile of income, you have a 31% chance of remaining in the bottom quintile and a 8% chance of making it to the top quintile. Notice that the chance to make it from the bottom to the top quintile, even for whites, is much better in denmark than in the US.
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we’ve all but gutted our country’s Working Class, and that same cancer is now eating away at our nation’s solidly Middle Class, too. Note how we don’t even address the former anymore; its all about “the middle class”.
That’s a real interesting point. The elite has been hard at work at destroying the black working classes and white working classes through different means, though cheap labor immigration is cudgel that smashes them both.
As far as the black working class is concerned, some say that there was once a great debate between Booker T. Washington’s ideas and W.E.B. DuBois’ ideas for black advancement. And judging by today’s scene, it’s the latter that won this debate, to everyone’s detriment n my opinion.
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Aenigma:
I don’t think women have some deep seated desire to be sluts. They have a deep seated desire to fuck and monopolize alpha males. It’s not the same thing at all. Most sluts are broken. The kind of love you get from a woman is going to be different if she’s sat on a big bag of dicks. But women will do anything to please a large group of people. It doesn’t matter if the large group is men or women. If you think back to caveman days, when women were weak and defenseless: their motivation is always to please the tribe. Just like male instincts are to hunt, do teamwork and lead: female instincts are to please everyone in the group. The fact that being a public slut leads to fame and unmerited attention doesn’t hurt either.
I think G. Manifesto has given you sound advice, though drinking heavily and doing drugs that aren’t anabolic steroids will lower your testosterone, and eventually make you into a fat gelding. If you’re not picking up heavy things in your spares, you should be beating the crap out of people. Testosterone is key.
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They aren’t, but that doesn’t make them any less valuable as humans. It’s the SWPL that are placing value on career achievement and income.
I suspect that’s due to the fact that the SWPL types are the second generation of college graduates in some cases, and that leads to the viewpoint that *white* people who don’t finish college and aim for high ranking careers like that did are lazy and stupid since they don’t have racism and oppression to claim for their inability to become truly white. To a certain extent, I suspect that for SWPL-types, the reason to cram as many black people as possible into college is to get them to become “white” and thus respectable. Leaving them in blue collar positions is unacceptable since such jobs are for immigrants who will have children that will go to college and become white too.
Of course, this is in vast difference to the elitism that my grandmother believed in, where even if somebody was your maid, they worked hard and were entitled to respect and dignity too. SWPL in contrast would view their maids as inferior because they’re too lazy to go to college and become white too.
it’s a better alternative for him than to listen to the SWPL’s bs that he deserves better than his relatively worse economic situation, thereby either dropping out of the job market or resorting to class warfare.
If America was an all white country, we could easily paper over such effects, but the problem is that despite being only 12.5% of the country, black people are disproportionately more likely to be poorer, less educated, in poorer health, incarcerated, or living in crummier neighbourhoods with higher crime or poorer schools, eventually, class warfare will be ignited. Black people will see that they’re unrepresented in nice neighbourhoods or high ranking positions, and this will simply create resentment and anger towards whites, and fuel the views of those who blame white people. It’s the visible difference that’s the problem, and I suspect it’s why Northern cities where the de jure segregation of the South didn’t exist suffered from riots in the late 1960s. The poor black population grew tired of being harassed by police, and being barred from living in nice neighbourhoods or employment in higher paying and more prestigious positions.
Regardless, what’s the incentive to be a black janitor making $10/hr when the wages are barely enough to support a family, especially in high cost of living areas, and when everybody (both black and white) will down at you for doing such work. At that point, you might as well sell drugs, and at least get the rep of being a bad boy to attract women, and have no fear of child support wage garnishment.
They sought the trade route
Yes, and they’re secretly looked down upon by white collar whites who earn less.
Second, a black man with an IQ equal to mine would almost certainly be guaranteed a much more prosperous financial future.
In a vacuum with no Affirmative Action, is this still true?
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or living in crummier neighbourhoods
People don’t live in good or crummier neighborhoods. They make neighborhoods good or crummy based on thier behavior.
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We are importing tens of millions of the peasant class from culturally and genetically antagonistic countries who do not possess a natural instinct towards American-style individualism and distrust of government.
There are millions of white Americans who don’t possess that instinct either. Barack Obama wouldn’t be President without them.
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Chuck
Re: Pop Culture and Theories of Metabolism
The truth is hiding in plain sight: It is a scientific fact that some people can eat all they want while watching TV all day and still stay fit and thin while others can eat only tiny amounts of food while working out constantly and still stay fat.
Don’t you see the obvious connection? There must be some kind of quantum worm holes linking these anomalies. On one end there are thin people over-stuffing themselves as the food energy is pumped into the body of a doomed fat person as they starve themselves – even when they are on a treadmill.
No one said life was fair.
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PA,
Interesting point on the Washington/Du Bois debate. I’ve thought about that a lot over the years.
I have to say, that I’ve always favored the former over the latter, for the simple reason that once you have your foundation together, you can always rise from there. Like Washington said himself, what’s the point of having the right to go to a movie house, but don’t have the money to buy a ticket?
Some say that both argued necessary aspects of the so-called Negro Problem-that it was important to press for civil rights, but that it was also important to press for self-improvement and sufficiency. I don’t necessarily have an axe to grind with WEB DuBois, because he did make some great contributions to America, for example, he’s arguably this country’s first true sociologist with the publication The Souls of Black Folk, which was written at least in part, here in Philly, while DuBois was a prof at the University of Pennsylvania.
But back to the points and issues at hand, please note that I simply said “Working Class”, not specifying the races involved; as you rightly noted, the Elites are letting everyone in that group have it.
I just want to point out something for you and everyone else’s consideration:
Back in Jan, the Philadelphia Daily News had on its front page “29 Bank Robberies in 28 Days”. We all know who most likely carried out those robberies, Black guys. The article went on to note that the country’s economic woes had a hand in the incredible spike in bank robberies.
Philly now faces a serious round of service cutbacks and tax hikes, all while area businesses layoff workers in waves. Brothas already have a hard time getting work to begin with. One can only shudder to think what this Summer is likely to look like.
Talk about “Ski-Mask Way”…
Hollaback
The Obsidian
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“I want poverty to be concentrated in only a few areas in a city, and then to stay clear of it.
The theory is that deconcentrating poverty creates a situation where instead of the poor learning social traits from other poor people, they learn it from middle class people. In other words, it’s the SWPL version of making people act “white”. ”
I have become used to DA’s anti white thinking and goals, how he, without noticing, destroys all his personality to please some kind of “white is the way” thing. I hate it, but I don’t mind it (on the net).
However, this sentece is shocking. You see, what’s the point of creating “a pool” of browns and making behave like whites? Well, what I see, is more whites behaving like blacks/browns. In the 50s, the blacks in the United States behaved like whites plus had their lifes in the community. In Brazil, for instance, in the same age, blacks and browns lived in their communities but when they were to present themselves to the outside world, they tried to behave like whites.
Now we have Michelle Obama as the first lady. Come on DA! Was it by mistake, or are you that dishonest?
Anyway, as I was saying, what’s the point of creating “a pool” of browns to behave white? Why can’t you dump the browns (to their own ways of life) and let whites – because that is what you initially had – have their white lifes? Because, America is less, not more white nowadays than it was before.
Why do you hate yourself so much? White is not superior. Well it is, but not interinsically. Potentially, everybody could equal whites, but only whites have achieved it.
Stop being parasitic!
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Obsidian
I agree with you and Sailor on this.
I have a fairly middle class background (you know; a comfortable but not wealthy upbringing – always food on the table and a roof overhead but no trinkets, etc.). I now earn a good income (above average, not elite class).
The only problem I have had in talking with blue-collar types is that I am a somewhat abstract and bookish type and they often are concrete and practical. No snobbery, just a different way of thinking. I have never felt better than them (I don’t know if they thought that I was a dork).
The attitude you describe saddens me. Any man who performs and honest days work (even if unglamorous) deserves respect. While I have skills (those abstract bookish skills) that are currently revered, I have never understood the disdain for more concrete skills. Maybe it is part of the feminization of the intellectual class. Maybe it is just jealousy at someone who has real skills (when the lights go out, who do you want, a economist or an electrician). Maybe it is status seeking or status insecurity.
The Bell Curve was far more interesting than its one chapter on race. It describes the trends that are separating the cognitive elite (Murray and Hernstein’s phrase) from the rest. It described how increased specialization was driving the very intelligent into environments where they only meet other very smart people. Many of our decision makers never really get to deal with people who are merely average. In the way we tend not notice the air we breathe, this cognitive elite does not notice that their environment is not normal. Even with no particular malice, they will start to make laws, rules, and work practices that suit them but hinder those who do not have the intellectual/academic skills that they live and breathe.
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great debate between Booker T. Washington’s ideas and W.E.B. DuBois’ ideas for black advancement
It is interesting to point out that on Boondocks, one of the characters has a surname of DuBois, and that he serves the role of the stereotypical black professional. It is interesting to note that he is married to a white woman, has a bi-racial daughter, and works as an assistant attorney. While I don’t watch the show on a regular basis, I stumbled upon one episode, where he feared that his wife was cheating on him, and he ended up gaining hyper-amplified game advice from a pimp. Somehow, his inability to swallow and digest the advice reeks of the David Alexander excuse as to why he doesn’t invoke game…
I must also point out that the (real-life) DuBois is of mixed race Haitian ancestry…
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Section 8 and HUD are simply an assault on the property values of the working classes, and they create “churn”. It really is an act of economic violence towards these people by the banksters more than anything else. I’ll feel differently when McMansions in gated communities and Park Place townhouses go section 8. Lets REALLY spread the poverty and underclass around, and hell………………I might even be for it.
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Regarding income mobility
A big part of the lack of income mobility (especially for the lowest quintile) is the massive flood of low skilled immigrants.
The reason that there are jobs “Americans will not do” (itself a lie – immigrants are no more than 25 percent of any occupation, so the rest must be those pesky Americans) is because the wages have fallen. Tough and unglamorous jobs such as meat processing used to pay a family-supporting wage, now they don’t. Massive immigration helped to lower those wages.
There is no such thing as a shortage, merely a price that brings insufficient supply.
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I lift- not gonna box though- my brain is too precious to waste it on a sport where the objective of the other guy is to traumatize it enough that it stops functioning temporarily.
Smoking is horrible for you- but its its that effective I’ll just take it up though if its that effective I might just take it up outside clubs- and not inhale- ha!
Alcohol though- definately my drug of choice. I probably SHOULD go out a drink more- would help scoring those 3 fly honeys that G recommends per week.
Don’t watch TV (its for women and limp wristed male feminists these days).
As for dressing different and being different- well I’m definately different from the average dude- tall, intelligent, articulate, funny, great sense of fun; (usually take alcohol to get me in the zone though when sober its 20 questions boring- don’t know how to engange the girls at the startup; if I’m drunk I will talk about REALLY FUN fucked up shit). Where I fuckup usually is falling for the “beta bait” in conversations- I’m not use to identifing and responding to it. Probably will be overcome with practice.
Any suggestions on the be different front (aside from having a huge bankroll and dressing in a sharp custom tailered suit that I don’t have the money for (broke ass 4th year med student- if you have any tips on the generating money front- feel free to share those too))?
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Massive immigration helped to lower those wages.
The problem is that cheap labour immigrants allow companies in the poultry and meat industries to offer their products at lower prices to the consumer. So the choice to a certain extent is between flushing some blue collar guys down the drain and getting a bag of chicken wings for $7.99 or supporting blue collar families (regardless of race, hopefully) and buying a small bag for $10.99. Of course, the other alternative is to set up plants in Mexico to do that work for fraction of the cost.
In other words, are we as consumers willing to put up with higher prices, and we as shareholders willing to put up with smaller profits?
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Whiskey–
Yes.
But let’s not skip over the fact that the degree of trust worthiness to strangers, or light acquaintances in different cultures varies greatly. People always TEND TO, on average, trust their close relatives and long term best friends more than acquaintances or strangers, even those who have or seem to have credentials and produce evidence of trustworthiness and a degree of altruism. But this gradient varies greatly between cultures. It roughly correlates with the corruption index of countries. That index shows lowest corruption in northern Europe and offshoot countries. The US and Japan fall near the bottom of the northern Euro list. (the US has after all been getting a LOT more diverse, mostly with way more corruption prone ethnic groups). Spain falls way below the US and Italy in the bottom half globally (though near the top of the bottom half).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
BTW, this has become hard to google. A couple of years ago, there was a straight up list of all the world’s countries by indicies of corruption. Now what comes on top is all fluffed up and hard to find what you’re looking for, and the wikip article is itself rather hedged. Obviously the result of a massive PC attack.
Why would it correlate? Well, corruption is all about taking care of you and yours, your family and extended family, as opposed to remaining true to or political civil ideals and legal norms. In places where there aren’t many civic or political ideals that leads to extreme corruption levels. Clans in and out of government, doing for theirs. In places where there are, but it’s ambivalent, and the pull of extended family is strong, all those mouths to feed or anyway get them a job, or throw them a contract, it’s intermediate. See Spain and esp. Italy.
It’s interesting that India is at the absolute bottom. Caste related probably. Every caste is in many ways a different ethnic group in India (within caste endogamy, cultural attributes and prohibitions), and there are thousands of castes, or sub castes, which yes have these rules and barriers. Oh and for those that don’t know, we in the US and to a lesser extent in Britain get a very skimmed off the top selection of Indians. Their average IQ back home is a tad less than African Americans here. It’s 82-3, versus the AA 85. (Though most Indians are living in an impoverished rural environment, while all Af Ams are living in rich, intelligent media (by world standards) saturated, and intelligently structured overall, high techy environment.)
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Aenigma
The custom made suit is only really worth it if you are hard to fit. If you are tall and slim, a regular off-the-peg suit will probably give you a reasonable fit. You may also be able to find something more unique in an antique clothes shop (of which I have no experience).
You do not have to go the full custom or Saville Row (London’s tailoring district) route. If you live in a fairly large city you will probably be visited by tailors from Hong Kong. Price of suit from them is about $400 to $600. They usually place ads in the local newspaper.
They are probably also online (no URLs to hand).
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So do you wear this when going to a club instead of the jeans + dress/t-shirt most guys use? My thought was that at many places,as a young guy, you look like you’re so hard up for poon that you’re ove compensating by dressing up.
Maybe I’m overthinking this.
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David Alexander
Labor costs are only about ten percent of the final price of processed food.
The effect of cutting off the labor flow would be fewer workers at higher wages in the US (all natives). Perhaps some more employment in Mexico (due to off shoring). Maybe some more automation (increased capital investment – a good thing).
However we would no longer be importing poverty. There would probably be some benefits to the lowered diversity (more civic involvement, greater trust, more solidarity).
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Obsidian–
And European, and Japanese, and Chinese, and Latin American, and Middle Eastern life. Have I left anywhere out?
It’s true that Maxists do, or rather did, celebrate the working class, but that was a smokescreen in the jockeying for power. Well there were a few true believers who actually believed. So too though did a younger America. Or it did anyway where that working class was forging into and settling new territory, or rustling cattle and fighting indians, and so on. I.e., when it was very or somewhat independent, rather than ordered around by a boss.
All very social hierarchy stuff.
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Default User —
You don’t WANT a reasonable fit. You want a superb one.
That and great cloth is what a suit is all about. Well, there’s the style too.
At a bare minimum, after buying a better rack suit, go to a really good taylor, and have him fit it to YOU. Really good isn’t the same as really expensive, though of course there’s considerable overlap. I’ve found that here in NYC an older italian taylor was the way to go. Gone to him for years. Before that another one, but he aged out and recommended my current one.
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Aenigma
One way to think of it is to either dress a bit above or a bit below the standard for the club (you want to get in, so you can’t stray to far from expectations).
For example in a t-shirt and jeans place, you wear a jacket (maybe with shirt, maybe with t-shirt). In a jacket and shirt place, you wear a t-shirt and jeans.
As you said, you are probably over thinking this. It is your approach, your vibe, etc. that really works for you. Clothes can help, but if she likes you she will blow you out for wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt!
PS
There are probably others who can give you better club advice. After all I am posting this at 9.00pm on a Friday 🙂
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It is interesting to point out that on Boondocks
Just for fun I’ll mention that the creator of Boondocks was once in the same English class I took as an elective at Univeristy of Maryland. It started as a cartoon in the “Diamondback,” the school paper.
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dougjnn
Good points.
He mentioned being on a budget, so I was trying to offer alternatives to the $2,000 suit.
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Section 8 and HUD are simply an assault on the property values of the working classes, and they create “churn”. It really is an act of economic violence towards these people by the banksters more than anything else.
If something resembling mob violence ends up with a major bank CEO or a developer executive hanging by his neck, one shoe fallen off, shit in his pants, I won’t feel one bit sorry for him.
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Obsidian
Not so long ago, a guy coming out of highschool could get a job at the coal mine or construction company or the automotiv plant and be able to get a home, a wife and put his kids in college.
College?!?!? What are you, high? You can’t pay for kids’ college on a factory-worker salary? That’s why financial aid exists, and why most blue collar people stayed blue collar; your son would follow you into the plant once he graduated high school.
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Chuck
“why is it that the rugged-individualist states of the US receive more federal money than the collectivist states (I’m talking about Alaska)? Any wonder why?”
sure, the people in those states tend to have a more rugged-individualist bent, but ……
……
being returned to them at pennies on the dollar after the leeches in washington get their cut.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html
Interestingly, I live in New Jersey, which pays almost 2x as much in taxes as it gets back; Texas is the least freeloading of the Southern States (it pays slightly more in taxes than it gets back).
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It’s irresponsible to draw correlation between immigration and a tendency toward bigger or “socialist” government.
No, it is a statement of fact. The liberal elite brings in impoverished Third World peasants who will vote for them in exchange for benefits (which necessarily come at the expense of middle and lower-class whites who would be able to stop the government from expanding if their votes weren’t diluted in a sea of immigrants).
Income inequality is not caused by SWPL attitudes, but low IQ. Low IQ in a high IQ society is the equivalent of putting water in a gas tank, and hoping the car will start.
Why do we have a “high IQ society”? Precisely because SWPL want it that way, and because of SWPL attitudes that do not value blue-collar jobs. You can have very little income inequality between low and high IQ if there are sufficient manufacturing jobs, because those enable low IQ people to make a decent living. However, the SWPL crowd has been relentlessly offshoring manufacturing jobs and pretty much doing everything it can to advance the right side of the bell curve at the expense of the left side.
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There are only two cultural paradigms that have shown any capability for producing a self-reinforcing cycle of prosperity growth. They are :
1) WASP Protestant society
2) East Asian society
WASP Protestant society is dying out due to leftism and hordes of people from un-civilizable cultures flowing in.
East Asian society is far more resistant to leftism, but has an even lower birth rate than WASP Protestant society.
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MarkD babbled:
That graph has nothing to do with income mobility. I got off a bus at Parris Island with less than $2 in my pocket, many years ago. I’m in that top 20% of all those categories.
When the phone rings at night, and I have to go in to work, you’re still sleeping. When the paycheck comes in, I earned it, not you. So pardon me if I don’t care that things aren’t equal, because they’re not.
What experience should one have before he debates this stuff?
What’s to debate? It’s my money, not yours. I don’t have it all, there’s nothing stopping you from doing what I did. The Marine Recruiter will talk to you, honest.
So I take it that you feed at the government teet?
There is no greater sign of individuality and capitalism and independence than to make ones living working for FedGov.
The above posting is an example of just how delusional America has become.
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The simple truth is, black people are not capable of sustaining a civilized society.
Even when surrounded by the wealthiest society in the world, they still produce poverty, despair, and ignorance.
In any country with blacks and another race, blacks are always poorer than that other race (be it whites, Arabs, Indians, or Mestizos).
Countries that are dominated by blacks are of course the poorest countries in the world.
When white colonists leave, you get the present state of Zimbabwe or the Soweto area in South Africa.
When freed black slaves who have been ‘oppressed by the white man’ go back to Africa and start their own country, you get Liberia – where politicians kill and eat each other on videotape.
In America itself, blacks are 11% of the population, but 40% of the AIDS cases, 40% of all violent criminals, and 40% of all votes going to commie politicians. Hardly any liberal faggots would be in office without the black vote.
Wherever black people concentrate, whether it be an entire nation or just a few square blocks, you will invariably see depressed, decrepit, and violent surroundings.
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There would probably be some benefits to the lowered diversity (more civic involvement, greater trust, more solidarity).
You’d still have to deal with the pesky mess of legal immigrants and their American-born children aren’t going away. OTOH, you could always dilute us via interracial marriage…
The liberal elite brings in impoverished Third World peasants who will vote for them in exchange for benefits
An easy way to rectify this would be by determining voter turn out of non-Asian minorities. If turn out in these groups are low, then the plan isn’t exactly working as intended…
the SWPL crowd has been relentlessly offshoring manufacturing jobs
It makes sense for a company to increase its profits (and share price) by offshoring jobs and employing cheaper labour with high average IQ than to use high cost labour that’s unwanted by nearly every other industry.
Interestingly, one older SWPL type that I know seems to have very little sympathy for laid off factory workers, and his retort is that the workers should have known better and gone to vo-tech programmes or college to find other jobs. The problem as pointed out by some is that retraining doesn’t magically work in some cases since the new jobs in some cases don’t exist, and the new jobs still pay less and offer less benefits than their old jobs.
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Ageing: Little problem of the rampant, uncontrollable CANCER when the “natural” telomerase is boosted. Not happening any time soon, if at all. Don’t know why “natural” is used; have yet to come across any science based on non-nature. Inventing their own complex working molecule? No way, all based on “natural” and modifying it. “Natural” is a word for making people think something is better, or that it actually works.
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Severely ageist culture in UK. Common to hear vows to kill oneself before a certain age. Medicine has a suspicious look at ageing, the way we are taught (obviously in much more politically correct terms) is that age = it all goes to shit and there’s no way to predict how. Suspect the worst at all times! CONSTANT VIGILANCE!
I’m still not that upset about it as UK people seem to be: library, free public transport after the age of sixty and some support from the health service and the government: what else does a gal need? You got a story or two those young ‘uns won’t expect. Physical pain’s bearable, you learn to cope and get on with it.
I get shocked by people’s reactions to Alzheimer’s; they imply death’s a better option for the person even while saying how visitors don’t actually recognise that the person’s any different i.e. even while seeing the Alz’s effected patient enjoy life.
Compare to other countries: if there’s noone to take care of you, you just suffer alone or die.
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It makes sense for a company to increase its profits (and share price) by offshoring jobs and employing cheaper labour with high average IQ than to use high cost labour that’s unwanted by nearly every other industry.
Yeah, that “makes sense” to the SWPL crowd. To blue collar folks, not so much. But who cares about them, right? They’re just bitter losers clinging to their guns and Bibles.
Interestingly, one older SWPL type that I know seems to have very little sympathy for laid off factory workers, and his retort is that the workers should have known better and gone to vo-tech programmes or college to find other jobs.
I don’t know why you find that remarkable. It doesn’t surprise me at all to hear that a SWPL type has no sympathy for blue collar folks. More than that, most SWPL types actively hate blue collar folks, and have been working hard to marginalize them politically for a long time.
Michael Lind’s The Next American Nation has some excellent analysis of the efforts of what he calls “the white overclass” (i.e. SWPL) to crush middle and lower class whites, using minorities as a foil.
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i wouldn’t worry too much about what’s right around the corner. we each get one lifetime, and while in (reasonable) worst-case scenarios america* may become unlivable in our lifetime… will the whole world go to shit?
i only need to get one lousy lifetime out of this iteration of humankind, and i’ll be relaxing in trinidad before i get emotionally invested in any patriotic nonsense at ‘home’.
* (and my country, australia, which is imo the english-speaking westernised nation most similar to the u.s. in general current ‘mood’, far more than england, rsa and even canada)
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“In any country with blacks and another race, blacks are always poorer than that other race (be it whites, Arabs, Indians, or Mestizos).”
Sorry, man, but I think you’re mixing some stuff up there.
In the United States, blacks actually born in the US went straight from slavery into mass discrimination into being trained to depend on welfare. If you look at Africans who immigrated to the United States, they tend to be a lot more successful, AFAIK. Some even have children that go on to become Presidents.
If you train someone to be dependent on government, they will not break out of the bonds of poverty. Welfare can be just as enslaving as Jim Crowe and the plantation ever were. Politicians don’t mind this, because it’s a hell of a lot easier to get votes.
Internationally, Africa just drew the short end of the stick with geopolitics. South America was the backyard of Great Britain, followed by the US. We are much more intelligent with our foreign policy than the idiotic European nations that decided to divide up all of Africa between them, then duke it out for control. Plus, Latin America was directly descended from the Spanish empire and essentially imported a defective but still useful civil society. It wasn’t as good as the English system, but it was a hell of a lot better than what Africa imported (which was nothing until European nations starting colonizing it, and even then it was mostly half-assed and made what the Spanish did in Latin America look gentle).
Then Africa, like a lot of developing nations, got screwed by over the Debt Crisis, which was the 1970s equivalent of subprime, except they didn’t get bailouts because those nations can’t vote in the US, whereas bankers and homeowners can.
But as things started calming down politically, Europe stopped dipping its hands into the cookie pot so much, and international financial markets matured and let capital flow again, Africa was starting to pick up somewhat. IIRC, Chad was the fastest growing country in the world a few years ago. Botswana for a while was THE leading nation of economic growth in the entire world.
Just get big government down to smart government, and you’ll start to see results that are damn near miraculous
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Hrm I quoted the wrong section, but I think the general point still applies
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p.s. bhetti
“if there’s noone to take care of you, you just suffer alone or die.”
that’s the way it’s meant to be. nobody should subsidise the existence of anybody other than their kin, mate or progeny.
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Goldo
Ever since the era of fiefdoms, where communities were taxed, we have had collectivism.
What was the Roman army other than a form of welfare? Taxes used to benefit the community.
Any large group of people always act as if they are a corporation, and if they don’t, some other corporation will come in and take over. Collectivism is an inevitable self-organization that social humans must do, in order to compete with other collectives.
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PA:
I like to think of my own Slavic land of ancestors as a cozy backup option too, but we might be facing the same problem in this regard. I don’t know what’s the background of your missus, but from what I’ve seen among people I know, girls who grew up in North America are usually unable to adapt to life in Eastern Europe. Unless she’s a relatively recent immigrant from Poland, chances are she’d be quite miserable there.
Also, I’m not closely familiar with what’s going on in Poland specifically, but I wouldn’t be too optimistic about the future of Eastern European countries in general. Demographically, they are a complete basket case, and all the other winds of decadence are increasingly felt there too. Overall, I’d say that among the Western countries (in the broad cultural sense, that is including the former Soviet bloc), the U.S. and Canada are still the healthiest ones.
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My retirement country will be New Zealand. And I’ll bring in my own woman(en). I imagine that within 30 years I’ll have built a boat to live and retire on.
Actually looking to build a very small fishing boat this year, to get my toes into the water.
New Zealand and Australia seem to be good options, if you want to live among affluent whites. Canada has a good society, but nowhere is the weather good enough.
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goldo:
when i said kin, i meant it more in the sense or a “tribe” than a family. we should obviously help to keep around the people we have an interest in.
collectivism indeed seems a natural human behaviour, but truly it must be in smaller instances than what is currently understood as ‘welfare’. the idea that a productive person should subsidise the mere existence of somebody miles away is farcical.
of course there is utility in having them not commit crime for food, but i’d rather see them shot.
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^ i am sorry, i should have addressed you as ‘xsplat’, but i misread the shortened version of my screen name in your post as yours XD
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I get your point, Gold. As a collective, we have to decide where to put our resources. That will always be contentious, in a democracy. Especially contentious in the race case.
I have no idea what solution could be possible, and I see that the trade deficit (for lack of protectionist barriers) will now completely crumble the US economy. I think not even China and all international investors combined will be able to keep a wholesale collapse of US banks from occuring, and I can’t see the US funding imports with T-bills anymore.
It’s possible a stronger pheonix will arise, in a similar way to Germany and Japan being revitalized by their destruction in WW2. But this won’t be a recession. You guys are going down, and down to the ground. No more T-bills for you. No more deficit spending. No more trade deficit. trading The rot of Detroit is already replicating across your land – expect and acceleration of that devastation.
I think your only hope is to once again manage the underclass in Industrial Revolution style shophouses, and to re-instate protectionist policies. And put your collective to the tasks of producing energy producing devices, such as solar and wind and geothermal generators, so that you can run desalinators, and have an abundance of food and energy, the backbones of any economy and lifeblood of any city.
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Why are you fuckers home on a Friday night debating socio-economics on a blog devoted to meeting and fuckin chicks?
Go out and meet bitches to fuck for god sakes… I might be wasted (favorite drug remember) and blown of my chances of a fuck with an engaged Irish chick (continued with the sloppy makeout in the club- relieving the sexual tension- should have pulled away first and made her qualify)- but at least I’m not sitting at home talking aout this BS…. Don’t waste time debating things you can’t effect in any meaningful fastion- if these topics are so important to you then take action on them- don’t just sit and debate them on a message board on Friday night- that accomplishes nothing. Action, ultimately, means everything.
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PS- G- cigarettes are great and a great way to meet bitches. Thanks for the tip. My nut sack thanks your but my lungs curse your existence.
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solar, wind and geothermal? why not microwave transmission of energy and tidal harnesses while we’re at it XD
what’s wrong with nuclear?
again: i am without concern for the future. i just want to get through my life.
you say you have no idea about the solution.
do you want to know some secrets about humankind?
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in the book of secrets here, skipping over “the logical conclusion of capitalism is communism”, “illusory self” and “the sanctity of life” chapters we get to the relevant point: “specialisation of emotional response”.
concisely and very simply put: as the population increases we find more efficient ways to deal with problems- we deal with them en masse. in an efficient village protracted farming cycles may replace individual hunts.
the same thing has happened with our ‘negative’ emotions and the concordant responses.
it used to be such that when an individual felt shame they would change to better function… when an individual felt jealousy, it inspired them as an individual to be productive. when an individual felt weak, it inspired them to be stronger.
but what if we could deal with the problem of ‘negative’ feelings more efficiently en masse?
instead of individuals reacting to their interior drives as was natural, they are now serviced by the “feelings farm”- media. any emotion required can be obtained. want to feel superior to somebody- turn on the pedophile compund raid… want to feel attractive- get told how hollywood’s ‘body image’ is wrong etc.
any emotion required can be obtained.
any emotion required can be obtained in response to a ‘negative’ emotion, without actually fixing what the ‘negative’ emotion brought attention to.
any emotion required can be obtained, despite the fact that the balance was set up so that when we had a certain emotion, we would get what we need.
this chapter in the book of secrets essentially submits that humankind is losing its capacity to actually ‘do things’, since humankind’s propensity to try and do things efficiently has compromised its own means of interacting with the world.
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Sure, tidal energy will contribute to the grid. Microwave beaming of what – space based solar collectors? I’d bet its cheaper to put solar collectors in the southern deserts.
Nuclear energy is usefull, but not so much cheaper as to completely offset the risks. And uranium is not an endless resource. I’m not anti-nuclear – it can be better than coal. But you’ve got to start building the renewable electricity sources, even if they are more expensive than the nuclear or coal option, in the short term.
The good thing about the renewables, especially solar, is that the source doesn’t run out. There will be peak uranium, but there won’t be peak solar.
Once you’ve got your infrastructure built, you have stable supply. You can save all that cash spent fighting in the middle east, and re-direct it to new infrastructure projects.
Everything right now relies on oil. That’s been causing problems. A diversified energy source that relies on renewables can stabilize your economy. The root and source of any economy is oil. You can make it solar, and be a rich country again, with an excess of the energy-food that countries use to become rich.
With an overabundance of energy, secure from foreign interests, you could not only power your industries, but even airate your deserts with desalinated ocean water. Perfectly reasonable, and economically viable – all you need is political will and a little forethought.
Your economic stimulus package should have gone mostly into a huge push towards energy self-sufficiency.
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we have forgotten the utility of shame, jealousy, fear, hate, anger, etc.
think of the television or computer as an “emotions” tap
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look for an asterisk in an older post for my country
and while i generally agree with you in regards to energy, 2 points:
don’t understimate the importance nuclear energy will have
there is lots more to power than the grids. somebody has to somehow use that wind or solar power to move cars, for example.
fuck it, a third point
you have to be joking about the renewability of the resources. surely humankind doesn’t have that long?
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and the tone is 100000000% spot on
in the future
wealth != money
WEALTH = ENERGY
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Yes, turning electricity into something that can power an aircraft is tricky, but we do have some (wasteful) technologies to do that now.
Hydrogen is not a great solution for vehicles, because of storage problems. Probably better to waste excess electricity into creating liquid hydrocarbons, for their ease of portability. But batteries powered from the grid are the most efficient, and economical.
Battery technology works for some vehicle applications right now, and to further range, you could always trade-out batteries at gas stations, and pay per watt used, according to your car’s meter. There are many fuels with decent power to weight ration. One is boron – you burn it, then give the oxide back to the power plant to turn into fresh boron pellets.
And as to your point about how long humanity has, I’m not sure. I imagine that trans-humanity will be around for awhile. I’ll be one of the first lawnmower men, even if I have to download the microchip plans as a torrent of the net, build it with my own prototyping printer, and get some local to stich it into my skull.
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If wealth=energy, you Aussies can set yourselves up to be the next big thing, what with your huge sun drenched deserts.
Here’s the plan. Every person collecting unemployment ought to be to work out in mirror factories and sent out to the fields planting glass.
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aliasclio
1) Young women praise the beauty of older women not to district attention from the real competition (i.e. other young women), but to try to make themselves feel better about the prospect of growing old. “See how great actress X looks! Maybe when I’m 40 I’ll be lucky too…”
I’ve never quite thought of it that way; I’ve always enjoyed getting older, and now I’m over 40 I can concentrate on becoming a crazy cat lady (lol).
Getting back to the topic, though, in my experience women dress to impress other women. We like to show off how good we look to the girls because if we look better than they do then we’ll get more attention.
I once had another woman berate me for wearing high heels: “Oh my God! How can you wear high heels? You’re a feminist, how can you do that? Don’t you know that high heels were invented by men to make it harder for women to walk?”
As I told her, “I happen to like high heels, they make my legs look good, so I feel better. My partner also likes them, and I can sprint in 3 inch stilettos, so I’m not really worried.”
There is nothing like walking into a crowded room knowing that the men are staring and the women are jealous.
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We are importing tens of millions of the peasant class from culturally and genetically antagonistic countries who do not possess a natural instinct towards American-style individualism and distrust of government. Our historical “anti-power” ethos is rapidly being replaced in a great demographic tsunami by a “daddy government” ethos.
I think Seeking Alpha concedes the validity of many “race realism” points and the high probability of non-Westerners being a catalyst for more government centralization of power and less free market.
So how does he reconcile his enthusiasm for immigration with his “Randian” libertarianism? Short-term advantage for some, fuck the rest?
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You take it wrong. I feed the government, not the converse. I haven’t had a check from the government that wasn’t a tax refund for decades. Lets just say I pay tens of thousands in taxes annually. That and a few years of my life, long ago, were enough.
My point was that there are ways to get an education or training that will get you a decent job and income mobility. Some of them require work, or taking a chance. The military (horrors) is one of those ways. There’s a war on. You might be killed. Like some of my peers were. In Vietnam. Yes, I’m that old. I made a whole $128.50 a month, so maybe you’ll forgive me for thinking I earned the GI Bill that paid for my last 2 years of college.
So debate away. I’ve no interest in giving more of my income to people who won’t do what I did, like go out and earn it. Tell me how unfair it is, so I can laugh at you.
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The immigrants I know (Asians) despise gov’t and taxation. Middle-class whites have embraced the welfare state, so I hope the economic collapse impoverishes them.
Blacks are enemies of freedom-lovers. If something happens to you-know-who in Pyongyang on the Potomac, the civil war will begin. Show them no mercy.
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goldoildrugz: I was just talking about the oddness of why this culture’s more ageist even it’s such a cushy deal in a lot of ways. Whether we should take care of our seniors is another debate I’m not willing to engage in at the moment!
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Vladimir:
I try to be optimistic about Poland in the medium-term. A few years ago, when Britain and Ireland let Poles work there, some people worried that this would suck all young people out of the country, causing a demographic crater.
Much of that worry was unnecessary, as a lot of young people are coming back. Many made the short-term money they wanted to and have enough to buy an apartment back in Poland, many others went there as students with no intention of doing manual labor more than necessary. Others are finding it difficult to afford living in London in non-slum areas, and yet others have worked out a seasonal arrangement whereby they live in Poland but travel to the UK (or Sweden, or Germany) to work seasonally.
An unexpected benefit of the open European job market was a recent spike in births, with relatives sending money back home.
In terms of overall birthrates, Poland is not doing too badly, last I checked. The figures are slightly below replacement, but as I noted, on their way up somewhat.
The ethnic homogeneity is a huge advantage, for obvious reasons, including the fact that ther eis no such thing as “bad neighborhood” in Poland inthe American sense, so family formation is easier there than in major metro areas in the West.
As far as immigration, so far (knock on wood) that’s a non-factor. Immediately after Communism ended, Polish cities were flooded with Romanians and Gypsies, but virtually all of them moved on to western Europe or were deported back to their country. You’ll see lots of Vietnamese in Warsaw, mostly operating thrift stores or food vending booths, but no one thinks of them as a problem.
I try to keep a “glass half-full” attitude about this. The poeple are generally conservative morally, but they tolerate porn, for example, in ways that woudl seem odd to similarly conservative “Bible Belt” Americans. One of the wierdest things I ever saw in Warsaw is two very young girls shuffling through hardcore porn mags (bukakke shots and all) at a kiosk, looking for some non-porn magazine, with complete indifference. It’s probably a European thing… compartmentalizing porn out of their life.
Feminism, Political Correctness, et al, you get some of it, but I don’t see it taking root as strongly. Yeah, major media and such try to sing the same siren-song we get in the West, but it comes off like a very unconvincing apeing of “American crap.” Just going anecdotally, there doesn’t seem to be a fertile soil for PC.
I’ve come across some SWPL-wannabe types among young Poles, but the attitude doesn’t seem to be as common. I’ve also noticed that exposure to the joys of diversity in the UK has been an eye-opener for many. Every few weeks or so a major Polish online mag will run a story about some Pole raped/murdered in England, and people who return from there tell storied too.
In a way, I agree. I totally see Western Europeans going full-blown dictatorship from the top and Muslim-invasion from the bottom. East-Central Europe, on the other hand, is probably more wary of being tossed to Russia.
Canada? I hope its size will make it easier to absorb the crazy immigration but its political culture does seem much more Euro-leftie.
On a very important level, I haven’t lost faith in America. Maybe it’s the Southern Redneck tradition that keeps this country relatively free.
Which former Yugoslavian country are you from originally, if you don’t mind my asking?
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That chocolate penis line was knicked from a 4chan thread, which was made into one of those motivational posters.
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so family formation is easier there than in major metro areas in the West.
One clarification, lackof affordable homes or apartments is consider a major obstacle for youg couples in Poland; it’s just thate there is no high price floor below which a neighborhood is considered unlivable, the way it is in the US metro areas.
Also, there is some illegal immigration in Poland, but most are Ukrainians who are drawn to the building boom that major cities had seen in recent years.
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Re: Section 8 housing and crime, Google “American Murder Mystery”.
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The Natural Born Ladykillers link is pretty hilarious… It is interesting that as adults we forget all the lessons learned in elementary school. Playground rules of engagement are pervasive and eternal. =p
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epiclolz–
God I’m dissappointed.
You had me half expecting some video of playground lotarios, a forth grade boy or too sidling up to some cute girl and pulling her pig tails, or grabbing her pants top and pulling her off the ground, or some such. And then having her scream or these days I guess hit him with her fist in the stomach but then keep looking at him with interest. Or something simlarly amusing/hilarious.
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RE: Slut Pride.
The woman in question is ugly and likely mentally disturbed. A sample of one does not make a trend.
She uses a tiny bit of fame garnished from outrageous behavior to fill the hole that her otherwise mediocre existence leaves in her soul.
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PA —
Yeah. That takes not only poor but especially violence prone people. Races differ greatly in how prone to violence they are, and not just how they differ in IQ.
Though for whatever reason the poor Irish were sure as hell prone to violence in New York and elsewhere in the second half of the 19th century, after they first got here and before they’d had enough time to move up some (not the fastest group to do so by any means either). They were also known for massive alcohol related absenteeism. (The amount of drunkenness in the lower classes of New York City and especially among the Irish in the second half of the 19th century is truly astounding. See Luc Sante’s “Low Life”). Italians (their fellow catholics who were also the next large immigrant wave following them and preceding most of the Jews, the mafia notwithstanding, were by and large not. Unlike the Irish, who did face “no Irish need apply” signs in shop and sometimes factory windows in NY and elsewhere for a while, there was essentially no such thing as a “no Italians need apply” sign. They had very good general reputations as workers and were often sought out. Contrary to the after the fact whitewashing of leftists, particularly Irish ones naturally, prejudice against Catholics in the workplace was mainly prejudice against the Irish.
It is true though that Italians were not though very studios or particularly bright. In fact the Southern Italians who came to the US in large numbers did not by and large have families that much emphasized education. Instead, they favored owning small businesses. And often did very well that way over time. See e.g. Thomas Sowell’s great culture trilogy. This is mostly from “Immigration and Culture” I think, but perhaps “Race and Culture” as well.
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PA
Is there any strong pattern as to who the attackers tend to be? I mean Caribbean or African blacks versus Muslim Pakistanis, I’m presuming? (As opposed to Hindu Indians or native Britons?)
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That post was a partial-birth abortion. Don’t blame me though, our new leader is the one that wants to sign them into law.
Let me try again, remembering to turn off blockquotes:
I’m a little late to the party here, but JM raised several issues worthy of a response.
You have a fever, and the only prescription is more Steve Sailer. I admit to not having read the book he’s reviewing here, but Sailer’s review makes it more than clear that the Industrial Revolution may have occurred in part because the peasant class was slowly replaced by their wealthier lords: http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/071008_farewell.htm. I can’t say whether or not Dr. Clark’s thesis is an accurate one, but as the United States was an ethnically and culturally British country at its founding (1790 Census: 60% English, 80% British, 98% Protestant), Dr. Clark’s work has serious implications for the type of people who founded America.
Next,
More Sailer, more problems with your argument. California, which voted for George H.W. Bush in 1988 and 8 of 9 Republican candidates before that, was a conservative state with a balance struck between the liberal North centered in San Francisco and the conservative South, particularly the Orange County to San Diego corridor. (I have heard, but do not know if it is true, that this is the result of the state’s settlement patterns. New Englanders went to the North, Midwesterners went to the South.) Obviously this is no longer true. The simple explanation for why this has changed? Immigration. And reading between the lines of a 2006 poll, that’s exactly what we find: http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060917_silicon_valley.htm
Who is here matters. John Jay argued this in Federalist #2: ”With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people — a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs…” Alexander Hamilton argued this as Washington’s speechwriter: ”To render the people of this country as homogeneous as possible, must tend as much as any other circumstance to the permanency of their union and prosperity.”</em? And now two scientists, Harry Harpending and Greg Cochran, have argued this in their book the 10,000 Year Explosion. Link for book review here: http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/090208_evolution.htm.
I can only assume this is what Roissy is referencing at the very end of his post. And while I don’t want and am not calling for a National Socialist race purity approach, and to be clear I don’t think he is either, the continued prosperity, system of laws, and general way of life of the United States are in serious jeopardy if immigration laws do not revert to a national origins policy modeled on the 1924 one.
(Apologies for the formatting or lack thereof. If someone could helpfully link to the page where the language for italics, quotations, etc. are explained it would be much appreciated.)
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GVChamp–
A sizeable portion of the blacks who come to this country from Africa come to attend our elite or better colleges. Those come from something like the top 1-2% of their countries cognitive elite. Obama’s father, who later turned into an alcoholic wastrel, was from that group. The situation is similar with Asian Indians, who do a lot better here. Most other modern era black immigrants from e.g. the Caribbean or some African countries that have gotten a foothold here (e.g. you see a lot of Ghanan cab drivers and street vendors in NYC) come from some kind of middle class background back home
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Way to go dude…you got name-checked by Derb and Sailer!
I can’t wait until he poops on the Jews and gets the NYT after him. 😉
Though honestly, Hitler was the best example of an alpha I can think of. He got millions of betas in the most ‘Asian’ of European countries (orderly, cultured) to follow him into a crazy war with the entire world, and almost won, too. And he didn’t get married until he was about to kill himself.
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Is there any strong pattern as to who the attackers tend to be?
I haven’t noticed any of those killings being reported as being done by white Britons. On this subject, the biggest news in Poland recently happened here in November last year. It caused a massive outrage in Poland, judging by the online press and blogs.
Polish-born U.S. Marine Sgt. Jan Pawel Pietrzak, an Iraq war veteran, was abducted along with his black wife by four black Marines, tortured, and killed.
If you google his name, you’ll see news links to the story, along with photos. They were a nice looking couple.
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Here is a nice picture of the couple. It also puts the “all black women are unattractive” talk to rest:
http://streetknowledge.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/picture-52.png?w=329&h=327
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“on March 14, 2009 at 4:48 am xsplat
If wealth=energy, you Aussies can set yourselves up to be the next big thing, what with your huge sun drenched deserts.
Here’s the plan. Every person collecting unemployment ought to be to work out in mirror factories and sent out to the fields planting glass.”
For real. Pretty much every kid has seen the effects of a magnifying glass on a leaf it burns it when you focus just a inch and a half square beam of sunlight on it. When you use a little bigger one it burns it quick. Imagine 4 foot magnifiing glasses perfectly constructed applying that heat to a pipe with water should be able to boil lots of water. Not to much maintenance either. You can take the same magnifying glass an antique from 100 years ago and do the same thing with it. Once it is set up. Life span of system is a long dang time. Got to be close to perpetual
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Jackson–
There’s also something else going on, that you may not have heard of. Have you head of “the H bomb”?
It’s a phrase Harvard girls throw around. It refers to the effects of lettlng slip, intentionally or reluctantly after it’s pryed out of you, where you’re going to college. When a male says “Harvard” his female prospect’s eyes light up and grow into saucers. When a female says it, her pursuer asks if she’d like another drink and then never returns. Guy prospects get intimidated; female ones get fascinated.
So that leaves Harvard girls Harvard guys. Especially since in the immediate Boston area there are no close rivals to Harvard. Yale’s a long, long car trip away and Stanford’s on the other side of the country. No problem for the hottest H girls. For the less hot ones, they’re left with Harvard geek guys, of which there are many. Not men to stir a highly sexed girl’s loins however. Being an H girl herself (even though by the looks of her probably SE Asian and a full or quasi affirmative action admit), the H name bears less weight for her. Not enough to make a geek not a geek to her.
So how is an H girl gonna stand out from the crowd, and attract hot guys who might otherwise be intimidated?
How about going infamous slut girl? Sure that will intimidate lesser school betas even more, but it might just attract the odd alpha into no longer being intimidated or if he’s H himself disinterested in her.
Especially if her immediate goal is getting slut laid by a large number of studs and she doesn’t think she wants or needs to get married anyway. And she figures she can always find a high earning cuckold if she changes her mind.
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PA–
I agree she’s cute. She also looks like she’s charming.
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PA —
I love the way the mainstream media whitewashes the story. It’s revoting. E.g. ABC news says:
.
That’s before they get into the specifics about what actually happened. It sets the frame and allows the especially PC to hold onto that. For those of us better able to penetrate pretty lies:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=6204853
That white sergeant ceased being a brother to his black marine men as soon as he married a black girl. If he ever really was one to them to begin with. She too was a traitor to her race, deserving of rape.
If he had been a black marine sgt. married to a white girl and the same crime had been committed by some of white marine men, this would have been a US national scandal for weeks if not months, as the Duke Lacrosse case was. In fact this one is much worse. It’s clearly a racial hate crime, it’s murder AND rape both for race hate reasons, and it was done by the military men he commanded.
There are still federal executions. I’d love to see this prosecuted federally, one or all four of these black men get the death penalty, and then President Obama be faced with commuting the sentence of black racial hate murderers and rapists, or not. Will he follow his leftist and race solidatity precepts (see “Dreams from My Father”) and spare them death anyway? Clinton did not spare McVeigh.
Well, he can count on the media to massively downplay it anyway. As much as they can.
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“Here is a nice picture of the couple. ”
You can tell from her face that the woman is actually in love. So rare, so precious.
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Vladimir:
I’m Croatian, presently living in Canada.
Slightly? I think it’s worse than that. Look at the TFR data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate
Except for Albania and the neighboring states with significant Albanian populations (Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia), not a single EE country has TFR above 1.3-1.4. The replacement rate is around 2.1.
I don’t know about Poland, but in Croatia, family formation is in fact quite difficult and unattractive to young people. IMO, this is not only because of the objective economic factors (unemployment, unaffordable housing, etc.), although these are bad enough. An even more important reason is the opportunity cost of settling down. Young people, even those from lower classes, have lots of opportunity for relatively low-budget, but still excellent fun, and nobody feels like settling down for a serious life. Besides, many people are spoiled in that they would like capitalist living standards, but with socialist work ethic. In this regard, the decadence is much worse than in North America.
I certainly hope so, but remember that PC is not something that you’d notice spreading among the great masses of people. It’s a mentality that’s devised or acquired by intellectuals, who then use their control of the education system and their activist skills to slowly and gradually impose it as the law of the land and the ultimate standard of moral superiority.
In Croatia, most people still laugh at political correctness, but I’m noticing that the PC brigade has made great advances in recent years in taking control of educational institutions and getting their views presented in the media with a veneer of moral superiority. Of course, it doesn’t help that they’re richly financed from abroad.
It’s definitely more Euro-leftie when it comes to certain issues such as healthcare, but I’d say that these don’t matter that much in the overall scheme of things. One unfavorable factor is that the Canadian constitutional system offers more opportunity for leftie activists infiltrating the government to form or hijack powerful bureaucratic bodies for purposes of social engineering, including the suppression of free speech. They are however encountering significant resistance (see Ezra Levant’s blog for a good overview of the events on this front).
Overall, I’d say that the Canadian system gives a lot of lip service to political correctness, but underneath all the PC rhetoric and symbolism, it maintains many surprisingly good standards. Immigration is massive, but based on highly meritocratic policies and fairly rigorous screening. Law enforcement is very effective, and there is no tolerance for Islamic radicalism (I could never imagine their excesses that have taken place e.g. in the UK happening over here). Even when it comes to the general mentality of the people, I’d say that the culture here is definitely much healthier than Europe.
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Oops, the above post is a reply to PA, not to myself.
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“Polish-born U.S. Marine Sgt. Jan Pawel Pietrzak, an Iraq war veteran, was abducted along with his black wife by four black Marines, tortured, and killed.”
The truth is, the black woman in the picture is both cute and deeply in love.
Since a black woman who is attractive is so incredibly rare, the fact that a 1 in 1000 black beauty married a white man was too much for the black Marines to bear. Thus, they killed this couple out of seething envy.
The fact that they were Marines did not bind them to any code of honor. They still killed another Marine and his wife.
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This may not work because the
All html in wordpress goes with and ends with a / inside another pair of .
Put inside that and ahead of the /:
blockquote for blocked quotes
i for italics
b for bold
That should get you started. There’s also niftly little code for doing links that look like colored text only, but it too much work to try to describe in a way that isn’t going to active it and therefore make the code disappear from view. Also that colored text is unfortunately hard to tell it’s colored in it’s WordPress comments rendition.
I use free PhraseExpress to store the codes so I don’t have to type them out, then I use ctrl q to give me blockquotes, for example.
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Ok, didn’t quite work. Because it did get executed.
This key sentence should read:
All html in wordpress goes within a < (and it’s opposing symbol) and ends with a < /(and it’s opposing symbol).
Put inside that and ahead of the /:
blockquote for blocked quotes
i for italics
b for bold
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Yes, Canada has high standards for immigration (with the exception of Quebec who lets in French-speaking Africans and Haitians), so there aren’t really parts of town that you are afraid to be in at night (though most white people avoid the nightclubs that nonwhites frequent), but so what?
At the end of the day, the people coming here are still massively non-white and immigration totals 1% of our population annually. These people, despite coming here because they know that whites run a tight ship, are intent on gaining more power for their ethnic groups and turning our country into a mirror image of their own. They have no plans of assimilating into our British- based society as previous generations of white immigrants did.
Furthermore, dissent on immigration is totally forbidden. Totally. The US is an immigration-restrictionist’s paradise compared to Canada. It is a non issue at the federal level, the media doesn’t discuss it at all except to talk about how great diversity is, and if you complain, you can be brought up on hate crime charges. There is no anti-immigration think tanks like numbers USA, Vdare, or anything.
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That’s an excellent point, unfortunately. I worked with a Croatian woman a few years ago and casually met some former Yugoslavian people through her (mostly Bosnian)… the woman was very intelligent, but fanatically PC.
One thing I noticed about former Yugo people with PC attitudes is that they used the Yugoslavian civil war as the ideological cudgel for political correctness. They hated Serbs big time. “Fuckink Srrrps!” they’d say… but what they say they hated was not another ethnic group, but “Nationalism.”
Interestingly, this woman made a trip to her Croatian family members in Bosnia, and when she came back, she was wringing her hands about how the Bosnian Muslims should be using the international funds to “improve people’s lives, invest in education, blah blah blah…” Instead she saw that they were building mosquest with all that money. She said that she can’t understand why they are dong this.
One correction on the Marine’s murder… he and his wife were not abducted, but home-invaded.
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no such thing as “bad neighborhood” in Poland inthe American sense
While I’ll refrain from saying testosterone is a retardant, I’m starting to suspect that the main difference between whites with low IQ (or poor whites in general) from blacks with low IQ is the testosterone factor. I’m still amazed that even the high prole black areas in New York have elevated murder rates compared to their white high prole counterparts.
Re: Italians & Irish
From what my Italian friends have told me, they basically recounted tales of their grandparents and great-grandparents being treated like shit. Even today, I know of a few who still don’t feel “white”.
Most other modern era black immigrants from e.g. the Caribbean or some African countries that have gotten a foothold here (e.g. you see a lot of Ghanan cab drivers and street vendors in NYC) come from some kind of middle class background back home
As a Caribbean immigrant, I’ll point out that immigrants from the Islands can easily vary by social class, and a decent chunk of the immigrants were living in poverty back home. Most ended up working for years and saving the money to pay for the flights to the US or some simply borrow the money and use their earnings here to repay their lenders.
In the case of Haitians, a sizable portion of the mulatto elite left the country in the 1960s due to attacks on the their population by the Duvalier regime. University-trained Haitians like my father left in the 1970s and 1980s because they saw the writing on the wall and realized that their skills would go much further in the US than in Haiti, and the poor ended up coming after the economic collapse since the early 1990s. Interestingly, there is a bit of antagonism by the early immigrants against their later counterparts since the later are poorer and have lower-class habits, and in the eyes of some, they embarrass the Haitian community.
Polish-born U.S. Marine Sgt. Jan Pawel Pietrzak, an Iraq war veteran, was abducted along with his black wife by four black Marines, tortured, and killed.
That’s rather sad that he died under such circumstances. It’s sad to see any couple die in any case, but it’s depressing to think that they died because of an interracial relationship. Such a crime is inexcusable whether the suspects are of an “oppressive” or “oppressed” group. As I like to point out, being racists towards racists makes one just as bad as the racists that we’re trying to fight.
And yes, they’re a lovely couple, and she is very cute.
It’s clearly a racial hate crime, it’s murder AND rape both for race hate reasons, and it was done by the military men he commanded.
I’ll refrain from the death penalty with the exception of treason and terrorism, but if these men were racially driven, I see nothing wrong with a long-sentence in prison, and I tend be very sympathetic in terms of sentencing issues.
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“Here is a nice picture of the couple. It also puts the “all black women are unattractive” talk to rest:”
Wrong. Rather, it confirms that :
1) An attractive black woman will choose to marry a white man, because she CAN.
2) Black men will kill her and her white husband, Marine honor code be damned.
Thus, this rare black beauty was killed, and is thus no longer on Earth. This is also why we don’t see beautiful black women. Steps 1) and 2) ensure that they are killed by black men.
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For some reason, I’ve always viewed Canada as some type of magical candy land free of racists, and where the small black population is Caribbean (like me) and thus “better” than the blacks here in the States. Plus, when I saw how my cousins live in white neighbourhoods and had white friends, the country seemed like somewhere I could live and be free from playing racial games. In other words, I could belong and fit in anywhere. Sadly, it’s merely a fantasy crushed by the race realism, and the crimes and under performance by some of my fellow Caribbeans…
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The serbian guy who married Adriana Lima is a living proof of how game works. The comments about thye marriage are also proof of why game works: the world is crowded with betas. resentful betas.
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“For some reason, I’ve always viewed Canada as some type of magical candy land free of racists, and where the small black population is Caribbean (like me) and thus “better” than the blacks here in the States.”
That is true. But blacks are only 2% of Canada’s population. In fact, the number of Indians and Chinese in Canada dwarfs blacks. This prevents blacks in Canada from forming large groups that are susceptible to groupthink and can fill a large church to listen to Rev. Wright in nodding agreement.
No ‘black victim industry’ is possible in Canada, where in America it is a very lucrative industry, creating thousands of black and white leftist millionaires.
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@dougjnn
Thanks. Much appreciated.
I think, on a different comment board I found the formula you were describing about embedding links in text. As a test, I’m going to see if I can’t set it up to link to this page.
Scanning the headlines Roissy style
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Dayo Olopade at Slate says young women are more likely to defend alpha male abuse than men:
” In college, I participated in a program called “Community Health Educators”.. This preamble is by way of saying that I saw the way 17-19 year olds.. absorbed the range of topics we discussed..
far and away, the subject that penetrated the least was our unit on “relationships and abuse.” This dealt with date rape, molestation by adults, domestic violence and bullying. It never sunk in. Worse, while the guys were boorish in the extreme—one male student in one class said if a girl “snitched” on him for sexual assault, “I’d kill her”—the girls, I found, were even more likely to say that a male-on-female altercation involving kicking, punching and hitting was a girl’s fault. (“Why’d she make him mad?” etc.) Even kids who could rattle off the ins and outs of contraception without shame (one girl in my class had a toddler already) regressed mightily when it came to the issue of gender and violence. It was, honestly, chilling. What’s that about?”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/archive/2009/03/13/domestic-violence-are-girls-just-asking-for-it.aspx
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To learn about anything in HTML, just got to View -> Source at the top of your browser, to see the HTML of any page in question (including this one). Then just lift whatever you want to use.
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HTML Cheatsheet
============
For quote marks
For italics use <i>italic text</i>
For bold use <b>bolded text</b>
For a link use
<a href=”www.URL.com”>link description>
[looks like: link description]
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When entering link text use the full address (i.e, http://…)
If you do not give the full link it will not work (see the example above).
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And another thing…
links should end with </a>
I hope that concludes the errata.
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PA:
Yes, one problem in ex-Yugoslavia is that many smart people were rightfully disgusted with the savage nationalist chauvinism that swept the Balkans in the 1990s and with their kleptocratic nationalist regimes (mostly staffed by “reborn” ex-communists). Lacking any acceptable ideological alternative at home, many of these people embraced Western-style PC. In fact, one of the main selling points of the PC brigade in ex-Yugoslav countries is that they present themselves as the only alternative to the destructive nationalist extremism.
Also, many Balkan nationalists are passionately anti-American, and they’ll have no problem spouting anti-American propaganda lifted straight from various Western leftist sources.
Sadly, Bosnia has turned into a complete basket case after the war. It’s basically the same curse of foreign aid that plagues many African countries. Western money is flowing in in generous quantities in the name of nebulous nation-building projects that conflict with the basic realities of the country — and the local corrupt elites and bureaucracies have figured out that their best course of action is to make sure that the country remains a failed state in order to keep the gravy train going.
As for Bosnian Muslims and their mosques, it’s essentially an expression of classic Balkan-style nationalism, not Islamism. Most of them are not religious at all, and even for the overwhelming majority of religious ones, political Islamism is really as alien as Spanish Inquisition for modern Catholics. In a sense, one might say that these people are still culturally Slavs more than they are Muslims. (There has been some foreign extremist Islamist influence during and after the war — it’s a complicated story — but it’s definitely completely alien to the culture of the domestic Muslims.)
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Pick up Smoking Cigarettes
Drink everyday
Work out every- preferably Boxing
Do the above and you should start feeling good about yourself.
– MPM
You forgot drinking methanol, inhaling asbestos dust, and banging your head against a wall on a daily basis. Those will really make you feel like a king.
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DA
Time preference and closely related impulsiveness are also heavily inherited versus learned. There are higher means of both in blacks as opposed to whites, though as always along overlapping bell curves. Those things contribute to a tendency towards criminality as well.
Culture plays a big role to. A very big role. Culture is capable of keeping a hard lid on even high aggressiveness and low or middling (gang leader) IQ men, or letting or even encouraging them to run criminally wild. Culture operates at different levels. There’s a certain national culture, that often only become apparent to people when the travel abroad and mingle deeply with the natives. There’s black versus white culture and ghetto black versus middle class black culture. And there family culture and gang culture. It’s all a combination of what you’re explictly taught, and what you learn by modeling yourself on someone you admire (who has status and is enough like you for you to have a shot) – within your culture at whatever level of culture we’re talkin.
As far as black criminality in particular goes though, one thing we know for sure is that it exploded in the 1960s and continued accelerating until the late 1980’s, when it began declining sharply.
So just as segregation and other discrimination against blacks was eliminated or sharply cut back and vilified, and affirmative action was begun, black violent criminality exploded.
I think there’s a direct connection. Blacks stopped being told their lot in life was their own fault, or nobody’s fault but just what nature wrought, or some combination, and instead were taught it was all whities fault, for keeping them down and discriminating against them for no good reason whatsoever. The memories of slavery were made far more vivid than they’d been for a long time, and this time not in a way that was partly or largely humiliating to blacks, but instead deeply shaming to whites, as though they were the only ones in history to ever have slaves, as opposed to it having been a universal among rich and powerful societies, especially one’s facing labor shortages. These drum beats continued and still continue.
In addition, as a part of the leftist ideology of victim groups that was sweeping forth, by the sixties (actually beginning with the Warren Court in the mid 50’s), the country became far more lenient towards criminals, even poor ones. For the first time they got lawyers all over the country and not just in a few progressive places like NYC. They got Miranda rights. Lots and lots of cases were thrown out on technicalities and lots more were bargained way down for fear they might, and just as part of the zeitgeist of forgiving minorities (blacks). Sentences got lower and parole far more liberal, so the 15 years for armed robbery became 3. Police brutality against blacks, and even hightened scrutiny of poor or criminally rich blacks, which had no doubt been abused previously but was also a tool to keep street crime in check with some degree of swift justice, became sensational and always horrific and prosecuted and greatly cut back. Racial profiling became sometimes illegal and always deeply suspect, and requiring of extensive justification.
So blacks were told that if they turned criminal it really wasn’t their fault, and was in some ways their right (many leftist whites and blacks told them) and anyway even if they were caught, they probably wouldn’t go to jail, but if they did, it wouldn’t be for long. This had an effect. A big one. On a population already disposed by aggressiveness and lower IQ to compete in a criminally violent way more than other ones. Oh and their high T sisters LOV gangsters the best too. VaVooom, crime wave city.
Then the mainstream population had had enough and got way tougher on crime, at least sentencing and enforcement dollars wise (while retaining all the procedural liberality, with a few small exceptions). And ended up putting so large a percentage of black males in jail that, according to a NY Times editorial several years ago, at any one moment, 1/4 of black men in their twenties are either in jail, on bail awaiting trial or sentencing, or are on parole. I.e. that faction is at any one moment “in the system.”
Crime rates plummeted.
Obama has said he wants much shorter jail sentences.
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DA
Do you mean the race realism of whites (which is growing, unlike racial bigotry which continues to decline, courtesy of the interwebs), or the realities of race, ie the reality of real racial differences, despite the vast energies PC expends to cover them up, paper them over, and explain them away?
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Vladimir:
Balkan women can be pretty hot. They seem to have a nice combination of Mediterranean and Slavic looks. (I like brunettes.) I’m friends with a couple Croatian babes I met at the bar (they have boyfriends but they’re out all the time, they’re fun and they make for good social proof). I am currently working on an Albanian girl.
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Default User–
As a further descent into geekdom, I’m gonna ask how you did that.
How did you get the html symbols to show in their complete filled out fashion, without executing into invisibility?
What’s that code?
Cause this comes up on comment boards a lot.
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< is the opening bracket (<), > is the closing bracket (>). And & is how you get an ampersand to show without being interpreted as an HTML entity code.
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Dougjnn: It looks like Default User just wrote the code sentences in the font he was trying to describe, eg he wrote in bold font, in italic font and so on. Since the coding was on the outside, they didn’t erase themselves.
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Marku have you not seen the movie fight club you know nothing. lol
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ASDF:
Frankly, that’s not what I observe. Yes, they’re not going to be waving the Red Ensign and hanging pictures of Her Majesty on their walls (which I, as a nostalgic traditionalist, agree is kind of sad, even though I’m completely non-British myself). But the vortex of the mainstream culture seems to be sucking in second-generation immigrants almost without exception.
Wow, really? If you envy the Americans on Vdare, then, well, what can I say. Frankly, if I were into conspiracy theories, I would probably conclude that Vdare is a leftist entryist plot aimed at discrediting immigration restrictionists and the Right in general. Next time you see (or experience) a reasonable argument for immigration reduction (or any other right/conservative policy) being dishonestly libeled by leftists as “racist”, “hateful”, “white supremacist”, etc., remember that the folks at Vdare are working hard at making such defamations sound plausible.
You’re right that the U.S. has much stronger free speech guarantees, and it’s undeniable that the extra-judicial “human rights” bureaucracies have de facto powers of censorship that they use to further various leftist agendas. (The criminal hate speech legislation, which requires actual due process before conviction, is not a problem for free speech in practice.) However, when it comes to immigration policy, you can’t possibly deny that the U.S. immigration system is in shambles and has lost touch with reality. The fact that you can ramble against it with more liberty than in Canada is not much of a consolation in my opinion.
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Dougjnn
I posted a reply to your question, but it has not shown up. Maybe all that HTML stuff caused some problems.
Anyway, it seems that Twiceaday answered the question.
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The truth is hiding in plain sight: It is a scientific fact that some people can eat all they want while watching TV all day and still stay fit and thin while others can eat only tiny amounts of food while working out constantly and still stay fat.
That’s because some people want to eat much less than others.
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The problem of anything between < and > being ignored can be used to sneaky advantage.
If the forum filters words, for instance a word that begins with a “P” and ends with and “N”, you can use sneaky coding to get around it… or not as the case might be (software may have got wise, I may miscode).
Examples:
This sentence contains the word porn.
This sentence contains the word porn
The first used the dummy HTML markup <xyz> between each letter. The browser will think that xyz is markup and not display it, but take no action because it does not understand it.
The second used the numeric form of the letters (e.g., p for “p”).
In theory the scan for the banned word will not trigger.
Again, if only chicks were impressed with such knowledge. 🙂
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In America whites are the ethnic group which most strongly supports free speech. So support for free speech is declining and will continue do so.
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As for Bosnian Muslims and their mosques, it’s essentially an expression of classic Balkan-style nationalism, not Islamism. Most of them are not religious at all, and even for the overwhelming majority of religious ones, political Islamism is really as alien as Spanish Inquisition for modern Catholics. In a sense, one might say that these people are still culturally Slavs more than they are Muslims.
That’s encouraging in a way. I am still undecided whether to regard Islam as an unreformable menace (the Lawrence Auster essentialist view) or as just another religion that is what its adherents make of it (the John Derbyshire view.)
It could be that Islam is fundamentalist and fanatical when practiced by Arabs, and some central Asians. For everyone else, it might just be what Christianity is for most people today: just an aspect of their cultural makeup. But at this point I don’t know.
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Marku have you not seen the movie fight club you know nothing. lol
You may be onto something. Perhaps banging one’s head against a wall is the answer. But it will stop doing you much good in quite short order, heh.
Seriously speaking, while I think living fast and dying young is an option worth taking for some people, at this particular age, there is much more to lose than never before. This is because the “knee” of the exponential curve of technological development is very near. It would really suck to miss affordable, efficient, and safe indefinite life extension by a few years.
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PA
It seems to me looking around the world, that the surest way to get hightened levels of PC is to have been very threatened by fascism within living memory, and/or to have a very influential group in your country that were. We get a little of the former and a hell of a lot of the later (Jews) in the US. Britain has a hell of a lot of the former and a good bit of the later. France had a hell of a lot of the former and very little of the later. Croatia has a hell of a lot of the former and none of the later, but the former is very recent.
Australia has only weak amounts of both the former and the later. Australia was very late to the PC table and has less of it than the rest of the Anglosphere.
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Rain and —
It’s about, umm, the truth. Or being a lot closer to the truth.
So PC doesn’t start to really kick in until college these days?
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“Obama has said he wants much shorter jail sentences.”
Of course! They are new voters!
When a party is so heavily dependent on the least constructive members of society, that shows what that party is all about.
Borat Hussein Mugabe Osama.
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I wouldn’t advice anyone except for the terminally ill to use any recreational drugs because the current generation of recreational drugs is garbage. Our knowledge of brain function is simply too crude. That is about the change in a few decades.
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You imagine wrong. If they don’t rise as far as one might hope or think entirely fair in one generation, they always do in the US by two — if their progengy continue their values and traits (genes). (The genes passed on depend not just on those expressed in the parents but also to an exponentially diminishing degree on preceeding generations of relatives, against which pool a roulette will is spun, and … caplunk… there’s the dna of baby.)
Same thing happens on the way down. Marry and have kids with a beautiful but dumb, low attention span and addictive personality bimbo (of whatever social class, though low class may well add some cultural boosters to your offspring’s descent) and your descendants are on their way, chances are.
In a society with no upward mobility one would expect there to be a good distribution of brilliant and otherwise highly talented people all thorough the social spectrum, including near the bottom. In one with perfect mobility, after awhile one would expect that all the smart and otherwise highly talented would be at the top. To the extent that they assortively mate, i.e. choose smart people within their own strata and not far from their intelligence, or at least those at the top did no matter how hard girls at lower strata who happened to be pretty (though pretty girls at the bottom would have become a lot more scarce) tried to snag them, then we’d expect that previously high mobility society to start to LOOK a lot less class mobile, even though the mechanisms for advancement remained the same.
Except if you introduce immigrants. These, especially if they don’t come in as college students, usually start low down. Then lots of immigrants or their kids anyway rocket upwards. Though this varies enormously among groups. It happens with NE Asians and S Asian Indians a lot, SE Asians a fair bit, Africans and Caribbeans who don’t come in as college students some, and Mexicans and other Central Americans not so much. We’re told prejudice. Instead it’s culture and genes. Theirs.
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For me don’t need the drugs don’t need the alchohal don’t need the tv. Just like the cigarettes.
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Marrku
Any thought on what comes along with that exponential change is going to be perfect war. That is the thing I usually try to get at that is coming to a theatre near you and will change the face of the world and how to cope with that. It probably really really is important at this time to learn how to get along with your world neighbor.
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Any thought on what comes along with that exponential change is going to be perfect war. That is the thing I usually try to get at that is coming to a theatre near you and will change the face of the world and how to cope with that.
That’s definitely a possibility. But for what money would you want to miss the end of the world? I can’t think of a grander spectacle.
It probably really really is important at this time to learn how to get along with your world neighbor.
Agreed.
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Vladamir —
Fascinating comment. The whole of it.
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Vladimir:
Where in Canada do you live? Are you referring to white immigrants? They do tend to assimilate (with the exception of people like Italians), but non-whites, who make up the bulk of Canada’s immigrants do not. 2nd generation asian and east indian immigrants, the main two groups here in BC, develop a sort of a hybrid culture that is definitely non-western, but has elements of North American consumer culture.
As far as the Canadian Government line goes, ie that we are all Canadians by virtue of our passports and our belief in “tolerance”, then yes, they assimilate perfectly. By any objective look at what has traditionally been described as Canadian culture, they fall short by a mile.
If you believe this, then what exactly is your objection to Vdare, besides the embarrassingly bad quality of their website? They write logical, informative articles on important subjects that the mainstream media ignores, and take many politicians to task for things that would otherwise be swept under the rug.
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To Lefty in New Jersey:
1. Your state is corrupt. That’s why it is bankrupt.
2. Your state is Democratic. You vote for high taxes. I bet your Senators support the AMT and limiting deductions for real estate taxes, etc. All that sends more $$ to Washington, D.C. If you vote to send more $$ to D.C., don’t complain.
3. In the old days a blue collar person could attend college. It was cheap, only, there wasn’t the vocational need for a degree. There was night college and two year degrees counted for something. So did a high school diploma, then. The educational system is now so degraded that a high school diploma means one of two things:
a. You learned nothing.
b. You leaned to take entrance exams for college, ie. Next to nothing.
America is dead. Long live America.
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From the article:
New technology that can make tanks invisible has been unveiled by the Ministry of Defence.
In secret trials last week, the Army said it had made a vehicle completely disappear and predicted that an invisible tank would be ready for service by 2012.
The new technology uses cameras and projectors to beam images of the surrounding landscape onto a tank.
The result is that anyone looking in the direction of the vehicle only sees what is beyond it and not the tank itself.
A soldier, who was at the trials, said: “This technology is incredible. If I hadn’t been present I wouldn’t have believed it. I looked across the fields and just saw grass and trees – but in reality I was staring down the barrel of a tank gun.”
Kind of interesting of course with thermal seeable. How bout fully unmanned war machine mua mua hhahahaah
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Best Comment Ever in a story about professional b-ball player Marko Jaric marrying Victoria’s Secret model Adriana Lima. (link provided by G Manifesto)
Really??????? He must have a Chocolate penis that ejaculates cash!
That guy looks like a Turk. Not just any Turk, but a real one from the Tungus. He’s ugly as sin, but some of them are actually quite attractive. The women can have very refined facial features.
Here’s a Tungusic emperor of China (the Chinese have often been ruled by non-Chinese):
Note the similarity to Jaric. Uncanny, isn’t it?
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“Races differ greatly in how prone to violence they are, and not just how they differ in IQ. ”
Indeed. That is what the leftists don’t want to admit. Even the poorest white area in America is safer than a lower-middle-class black area.
The villages of China (GDP per capita : $1000) are safer than a black inner city in America (GDP per capita : $25,000).
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Do you mean the race realism of whites (which is growing, unlike racial bigotry which continues to decline, courtesy of the interwebs), or the realities of race, ie the reality of real racial differences, despite the vast energies PC expends to cover them up, paper them over, and explain them away?
I’m tempted to say both.
As I’ve stated, I’ve always felt that belief in race realism is generally a slippery slope into racism or white nationalism primarily because it’s very hard to separate the individual from the group, and I suspect that after a while of dealing with low IQ blacks, it’s not hard to have to the leap of intellectual faith to believe that white people are better than black people. As much as I like to have an optimistic outlook, I can’t trust people to do the right thing. Plus, admittedly, race realism means that white parents begin to start freaking out about their kids dating and marrying a black guy even more so than now.
On the alternate side, the problem is that race realism proves that there isn’t much that one can do about fixing the gaps between black people and white people. In other words, we’re going to be stuck with a large pool of people who can’t do anything useful. Admittedly, to a certain extent, as a black person, it means that we’re unlikely to have the boasting rights to stuff like multi-national corporations or Nobel prize winners, but sadly shame over high levels of crime and incarceration, disorder, low levels of educational attainment, and lower levels of wealth. Somebody may point out sports and music, but they’re for all intents and purposes, the average black person is not going to be world famous musician or athlete.
Yes, they’re not going to be waving the Red Ensign and hanging pictures of Her Majesty on their walls
Does anybody do that anymore? The Red Ensign sorta reeks of a Conservative Party voter who’s old and thinks the current flag is wrong, and thinks that Canada Day should be Dominion Day, and that Francophones should only speak English in public.
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I am only in my 20s, but I like the red ensign because it represents a Canada before multiculturalism. The new flag is pretty sharp looking, but I don’t like what it has come to represent.
As far as Francophones go, we never had laws like that. If anything, it’s the Anglos who get the short end of the stick in Quebec these days.
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eh, if women don’t necessarily gravitate to “pretty boys,” instead favoring your typical natural alpha, it makes sense that they wouldn’t necessarily ruthlessly apply the Roissy Beauty Scale to other women, either.
Men are more sensitive to that kind of youthful, sexual, raw beauty than we are– the glut of male designers and fashion photographers seems to attest to this.
And my grandma is adorable, and if I can look half as good as she does at her age, I will consider myself to have done very well. LOL.
A woman who plans to live past age 25 has to think about this.
Looking good as an older woman takes some dedication, and commands some respect.
Unlike the dewy beauty of a 17-year-old who can drink a quart of vodka on the weekend, roll out of bed still hungover on Monday, wipe the vomit off her face, and still look like a perfect angel by the time her 9:45 class starts.
But, hey, we all already know: a woman is basically worthless except as a semen receptacle, and any attempt to claim some other sort of worth is a Pretty Lie.
Party-girling it up till 26, followed by a quick and quiet suicide, is the best we can do.
We know, dove.
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VDare’s site really is embarrassingly ugly. What’s up with that?
Even the most half-baked lefty sites are all dolled up with the latest and greatest layouts, while I can hardly think of a right-wing site that would have looked out of place in 1994.
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If anything, it’s the Anglos who get the short end of the stick in Quebec these days.
Yes, the French people got their “country” back from the White Man and his evil, oppressive Protestant rule.
Admittedly, it is interesting to note that the Quiet Revolution turned Quebec from a rural, high birthrate, ultra-religious Catholic backwater into a modern, secular, multi-cultural quasi-social democracy that took an economic hit when it decided that chasing English people (with money) out was an acceptable choice. Despite two groups being of the same race and sharing the same country, the discrimination against the Francophones was apparently enough to induce such a philosophy against the Anglos. One could argue that it’s a lesson in managing with differing ethnic groups, and thinking that suppression or discrimination or alienation will work in the long-term.
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Party-girling it up till 26, followed by a quick and quiet suicide, is the best we can do.
Nah, have some kids in your twenties and you will be of use well into old age. It is childless women over 35, who, unless they have some particular gift, tend to be be rather useless.
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VDare’s site really is embarrassingly ugly. What’s up with that?
I know. It looks like it was put together by and for grumpy old men. No style at all and definitely not the way to attract hot babes to your side of the debate. (Though Peter Brimelow did manage to score a cute 23 year old wife.)
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oh, thursday, surely you know I jest.
Although in the Roissy universe, even the most careful observances of wifely duties, including preserving one’s physique and bearing numerous children, is insufficient to keep one’s husband from losing interest and fooling around with nineteen-year-olds after work.
The blush must come off the rose sometime.
Ah well. I suppose ’tis a mercy that not all men are entirely made of asshole. 😉
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Didn’t know that about Brimelow. He has stunning eyes, though, if I remember right…
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“a woman is basically worthless except as a semen receptacle, and any attempt to claim some other sort of worth is a Pretty Lie. ”
And any man who says otherwise is a beta vagina who has some sort of a problem with his DNA overlords! He’s doomed to be left by his wife and pay child support while she fucks bar bouncers who get her pussy all wet by battering her!
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brimelow’s first wife was extremely good looking in her prime. she died of breast cancer. brimelow in his prime wasn’t a bad looking guy either
brimelow now:
http://www.vdare.com/pb/pb_pic.htm
first wife:
http://www.vdare.com/pb/maggy_memoriam.htm
second wife (the chick in the black):
http://picasaweb.google.com/betty.sullivan8/SullivanBrimelowWeddingFeb07AndBridalShower#5153613420255902706
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Well, why on earth would a man who believes this even have a wife or child, Keith?
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I mean, why have a wife or child in the first place, if your belief system excludes all forms of human gratification and meaning (other than fucking hot young chicks, of course) from its existential equation?
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Wait, Keith, are you spoofing me???
I must be pregnant again, if I am too pitifully scatterbrained to detect a joke post on a pick-up-artist’s blog.
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omw sez “VDare’s site really is embarrassingly ugly. What’s up with that?”
It’s a great general point. Tons of rightie sites look like hell, and many righties have no sense of style. Meanwhile chic leftie book publishers publish great looking books, most people in the fashion and showbiz industries are leftish … SWPLs may be annoying but independent of their politics a lot of their taste in food, style, art, travel, etc is pretty darned good.
So why does the left seem to have such a lock on chic attractiveness? And why does the right so often seem so willing to cede this particular battle to them?
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And, just because race seems to be cropping up majorly again, why not enjoy this great performance from Bo Diddley.
A few questions:
* That suit. Those shoes. Those dance moves. Did Bo Diddley have a great sense of self-presentation or what?
* Have you seen many things as sexy as that little hands-and-hip thing that the black girls start to do at around 2:20?
And finally: That’s a lot of white people looking like Bo and his music are making them very, very happy, no?
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Anyway, Section 8 does suck. But what else can be done?
Grandpappy (who I consider a fairly reliable source of information on the Good Old Days) says that back in his day, Negroes lived in tar-paper shacks at the edge of the city.
Nobody would rent or sell to them no matter what they offered, and they couldn’t offer much.
He’s a salty old dog, but even he thinks nobody should have to live like that. Even if he still publicly describes them as Negroes.
Then the nation tried high-rise public housing, and nobody who’s read about the debacles of Pruitt-Igoe, Cabrini Greene, Robert Taylor Homes, etc, would consider that a good solution, either.
So what are you going to do?
My mom lives in an apartment building full for obvious Section-8ers, and the petty turf wars these losers engage in is ridiculous.
She tells a pretty hilarious story about The Battle of the Parking Space… she’s honed it into a great comic epic for the enjoyment of friends and family at get-togethers.
It perfectly captures her neighbors’ obnoxious sense of peeved underclass entitlement, as well as her own starchy Midwestern white-woman-ness.
But I really can’t do it justice in writing.
And, like many funny things, it’s dreadfully racist.
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Then the nation tried high-rise public housing, and nobody who’s read about the debacles of Pruitt-Igoe, Cabrini Greene, Robert Taylor Homes, etc, would consider that a good solution, either.
If the choice is between crime concentrated into one building or crime dispersed throughout suburbia, I pick the former.
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Yeah, but the projects blighted otherwise valuable neighboring urban real-estate values… drove the flight to the suburbs.
As much as I may nurse a certain irritation toward these urban liberal white people, that they are repopulating the cities their ancestors built is somehow a very beautiful thing to me.
It wouldn’t really be possible with The Projects looming overhead. Their residents have been turned out to first-ring suburbs, which are unfortunately the sorts of neighborhoods our grandmothers inhabit now.
I do hate knowing that my great-grandmother is surrounded by crazies in a previously staid working-class neighborhood.
But not much short of total hardcore “fuck y’all we gots ours” out-and-out white tribalism will fix that. And I don’t really see that on the horizon.
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MarkD
And what about people who are either temporarily or permanently unable to earn an income, for reasons that they have no control over? Do you think they will just disappear if they’re dumped on the street, and not cause any problems and drain money through other ways?
PA
I don’t think she’s attractive.
It’s unreformable. Europe is going down the drain because of Islamic immigrants, and the Islamic world itself is mostly a hopeless shithole.
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It is childless women over 35, who, unless they have some particular gift, tend to be be rather useless.
I send flowers every Christmas to some childless woman over 35 every year. Oh wait, my godmother loves me, helped pay for my schooling, and treats me like her own son. Plus, she cooks steak and drinks beer with me.
Nah, have some kids in your twenties
Doesn’t that cripple career advancement, future income, and the ability to have fun? This may sound silly and clichéd, but it makes sense to have kids in your thirties when you’re old and boring.
is insufficient to keep one’s husband from losing interest and fooling around with nineteen-year-olds after work
Or turning to porn and jerking off on a nightly basis in some dark corner of the house.
Yeah, but the projects blighted otherwise valuable neighboring urban real-estate values… drove the flight to the suburbs.
I suspect that would have happened even without blacks in the 1950s. The government essentially did the equivalent of handing out checks to people to buy homes in the suburbs, and a sizable chunk of the housing stock in urban cores was tired and worn out. The Levittowns and other suburban developments of that period were the McMansions of their era, and for Americans at the time, it was paradise compared to the small apartments and tenements that were common in some urban areas.
BTW, Canada has a small black population (3% total and only in four cities) that barely existed in the 1950s and 1960s, and even they have suburbs. I’d argue that the marginal, owner-occupied areas with older homes could have survived, but the apartments of the working class would have been written off. It’s particularly exacerbated by the fact that sometimes, children earn considerably more than their parents and can afford better/nicer housing. If you end up with an entire neighbourhood like that, then eventually the only group that’s left to sell to is immigrants and blacks.
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Well, that is also true about the government subsidizing suburban development, while letting aging urban cores rot.
Old housing stock can be renewed or replaced, but we didn’t do that, and part of me really feels this is a shame.
I just don’t think that would have been as compelling an option as it became in the face of the projects, plus compulsory (and compulsive?) racial integration in the school system. I mean, Canada has suburbs, of course, but did it have entirely blighted city centers? does it have a Detroit?
I do think it’s possible to have a racially diverse American city, but some allowances must be made for racial and ethnic and class sorting…
Banning that kind of self-sorting does nothing but encourage people to vote with their feet.
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Y’all might want to read up a bit on Urban Renewal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_renewal#Housing_Act_of_1949
It was a major social-engineering effort begun in the late ’40s that may have been as disastrous to the country’s wellbeing as Vietnam. Millions of people (many black) were forcibly moved out of their houses, thousands of functioning neighborhoods were bulldozed, skillions of dollars were wasted …
It was an expression of high-modernist confidence in government’s ability to improve on what we had. It was begun (as usual) with top-down high intentions, but it was hijacked (as these things often are) by bad guys — real estate operators and racists. It broke up families and neighborhoods, and left many black people — who came to refer to it as “Negro Removal” — more cynical than ever about how the game is rigged against them. Many of the “slums” that were destroyed were in fact functioning neighborhoods, and were of course home to many people. Imagine the man from HUD coming into your neighborhood and home and telling you you have to move, because the government has a plan. That’s exactly what happened to millions of Americans during the Urban Renewal years.
Urban renewal contributed majorly to the decline of American cities, and to our overinvestment in sprawl. It’s much underknown as a huge maker of today’s world and problems, IMHO.
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I just don’t think that would have been as compelling an option as it became in the face of the projects, plus compulsory (and compulsive?) racial integration in the school system. I mean, Canada has suburbs, of course, but did it have entirely blighted city centers? does it have a Detroit?
If you read my comments, I hint towards the fact that the worst housing stock would have been abandoned, but the owner-occupied and decently maintained homes would have stayed in white control for considerably longer. I just thing that in the long-run, it was inevitable that the area would have “turned” as those homes would have become too old and burdensome compared to the McMansions in the ‘burbs.
I’ll refrain from discussing Detroit since I know very little about it, but I’ll use a regional example, Newark, New Jersey. The city’s population in the 1960s was around 450K in the mid 50s, and only declined slightly in the 1960s, but the 1967 riot essentially led whites to leave en masse with no real replacement by whites and a current population 280K. This is a speculatory guess on my part, but the problem that some urban cores suffer from is that their property tax has been devastated considerably. As in the Newark case, when nearly one-third of your city’s population leaves, you’re stuck with abandoned housing that isn’t generating tax revenues, and housing projects that don’t pay taxes. In turn, redlining and high crime in general reduces small buisness development and keeps major tax-paying retailers out, and industries move to where the white employees are located*.Plus, you’re stuck with poorer and older residents who need more services which competes with funds for basic services, and capital spending needs are high due to the need to renovate older infrastructure. For all intents and purposes, any city in such a situation is doomed, especially if it can’t annex new territory with middle class residents.
The interesting part is that blacks ended up in urban cores in the North primarily because they were needed as surplus labour due to restrictions on immigration during the 1920s and 1950s, and for war-time labour. In some Northeastern cities, Puerto Ricans were an alternative group that filled a similar niche. Essentially, once we imported these groups to the North, we’d have to house them somewhere, and given their low wages, the only choice other than tarpaper shacks was the immigrants of ethnic whites with cheap housing. Part of the controversies of the 1950s and 1960s as Monsieur Blowhard points out is the shuffling around of these populations due to urban renewal and highway construction into slightly nicer working class areas via housing projects.
I do think it’s possible to have a racially diverse American city, but some allowances must be made for racial and ethnic and class sorting…
Somehow, I understand class sorting to a certain extent, and ethnic sorting when it comes to new immigrants who move to the States, but some for reason, I’ve always hated racial sorting. But I’m one of those self-hating oreo types, so I have a different perspective when compared to other black people. I’m just one of those weirdos who thinks that blacks and whites should live together because they’re both long-term Americans, but then, I’m in a town that’s 95% white and I can’t find a barber anywhere near me that is capable of cutting my hair, and I know black people would find the Catholic mass that I attend to be boring and uninspiring.
I guess the best option is for diversity in the sense that I can move to an all-white area and feel accepted, and a white person can move to an all-black area and feel accepted too.
*Newark’s heavy industry left, but it’s still New York City’s main seaport and freight railway centre and there’s still some light manufacturing left. Plus, Downtown Newark is pretty decent in terms of crime and white collar employment, and the Ironbound section has Brazilians…
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ASDF:
What, Italians don’t assimilate?! Are you kidding, or trolling, or what? I suppose if you consier Italians unassimilated, then yes, the case for any other immigrants is indeed pretty hopeless…
Whenever I try to argue against the positions of the Vdare crowd in front of their fans, if feels like trying to argue with the PC crowd, except in reverse. It’s what I call the “anti-PC PC” phenomenon — for the sort of people that are commonly drawn to groups such as Vdare, anything that’s un-PC and looks superficially well-argued and sprinkled with intellectual buzzwords has an automatic strong appeal, and any attempts at a reasonable counter-argument will be met with accusations of being a PC politruk.
So instead, I’ll tell you what pisses me off about them. They’ve concocted an ideology based on two principles: (1) treating the controversial “race realist” hereditarian theories about IQ and behavior as the Holy Writ whose undeniable truth is suppressed only by PC censorship, (2) a firm “no enemies to the right” policy towards the kooky racist elements. The first one is false, and the second is politically suicidal in practice — not just for them, but also for anyone else who might want to argue any positions on any issues that they’ve spoken in favor of. The last thing I want when arguing a conservative position on any issue is being cheered by the Stormfront crowd — and the only practical achievement of Vdare and similar groups is that they’ve strongly reinforced the public stereotype that any criticism of multiculturalism implies an affiliation with the latter.
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treating the controversial “race realist” hereditarian theories about IQ and behavior as the Holy Writ whose undeniable truth is suppressed only by PC censorship
The problem is the burden of proof. There is absolutely no evidence for the average neurological uniformity of the human race, while there is considerable, if not absolutely airtight, evidence for the contrary position. In such a situation, where all the evidence is on the one side, it does seem silly to take any position other than that there are such average differences among races.
(There is, of course, massive evidence for considerable overlap among races in traits like intelligence. Nobody of any reasonableness denies this. But overlap is not evidence for average uniformity.)
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Thursday:
However, now you’re describing the issue in a way that obscures the actual questions being asked and answers being offered by various sides in the controversy. “Race realists” are not offering just some bland, vague statements that there’s no convincing evidence for the claims about absolute human uniformity. They are offering detailed theories with specific claims about what exactly the differences among races are and how they’ve emerged, but the evidence for these concrete claims is very shaky, even though they dishonestly present it as conclusive. I could write a lot about this topic, but if I had to distill my objections into a single sentence, I’d say the the most glaring flaw of their methodology is that it would obviously produce very different, sometimes manifestly absurd results if applied to other times and places. In any case, describing their evidence as “not absolutely airtight” is a wild understatement.
Furthermore, there is actually some quite striking evidence for the neurological uniformity of humanity, at least in certain respects. However, you won’t read much about it, because the PC side in the debate believes it unnecessary to present any evidence for their position; they rely on “arguments” from moral superiority and character assassination (which, you must admit, is a very effective political tactic). At the same time, people on the “race realist” side are generally ignorant of it, since the IQ research on which their theories are based is rather antiquated and out of step with the modern brain and cognitive science, let alone other fields. (Remember that all the academic luminaries of the “race realist” movement — Jensen, Rushton, Lynn, Gottfredson — are geezers; none of them are under 60 years old.)
As an example, one such piece of evidence is the human language ability. It’s an incredibly complex mental facility whose underlying functionality is still largely mysterious. In particular, it’s nearly impossible to learn a foreign language perfectly as an adult, but kids manage to do it spontaneously just by listening to it, using some mysterious brain mechanism that shuts down around the age of 12. And guess what — this ability is strikingly uniform across the entire human race: a child of any ethnicity will become a perfect native speaker of any language if it’s just exposed to it sufficiently. (This fact is entirely uncontroversial and backed by mountains of empirical evidence.) If human races have diverged neurologically in their evolution as much as the “race realists” would like us to believe, it seems very implausible to me that this extremely complex mental mechanism still somehow remained entirely unchanged. (Notice that the computations that your brain has to make to produce a grammatical sentence are much more complex than the ones necessary to solve a typical IQ test problem.)
Of course, this is only one example that doesn’t prove anything conclusively by itself. However, I think it illustrates well the myopic perspective of the “race realist” theories. They’re good at concocting arguments that sounds plausible or even conclusive to laymen, but so was von Daeniken in his heyday.
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Yeah, Italians dont’ assimilate. Have you ever met one?? The very fact that they call themselves Italians means that they don’t assimilate! What is so hard to understand about that? You must not have been born here.
I don’t seen how you can link vdare to stormfront. Is vdare white nationalist? Basically. Are they kooky white nationalist stormfronters? No. Judge them by their arguments, not by a group who you perceive to be their most vocal supporters.
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ASDF,
Why then does vdare have questions on their FAQ about whether they are white nationalist? maybe the aren’t, but they at least acknowledge that they’re often mistaken for it.
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Plus, admittedly, race realism means that white parents begin to start freaking out about their kids dating and marrying a black guy even more so than now.
It always comes down to this, doesn’t it — where da white women at?
In your mind white people will never be “good” until they cheerfully lay their daughter as sacrifices to the miscegenation minotaur. That’s what everything comes down to for you.
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I sounds like we are all tired of dealing with the problems that blacks create.
In the revolution, we will cleanse ourselves of them. Anyone who thinks this isn’t coming is living in a dream world.
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“It always comes down to this, doesn’t it — where da white women at?
In your mind white people will never be “good” until they cheerfully lay their daughter as sacrifices to the miscegenation minotaur. That’s what everything comes down to for you.”
Yes PA, you are right.
These are the true vampires out there. I would love to see this kind of blood sucking beasts thrown back to their third world countries. It’s these parasites that make impossible the “normal/perfect” coexistion between Europeans and others.
The normal folks, don’t matter what their ethnicity is as long as they do not live to kill/pray/blame whitey are potentially just fine.
Shame on You Davampire. And all of your kind…
btw, it would be interesting to wonder the relation between the behaving of African Americans and the white idolatration of Martin Luther King and the white demonisation of Malcol X. In the end, Malcolm wanted separation from whites so that blacks could freely live their path while MLK was okay with living in the shadows of white society.
It’s that and the crazy idea of Lincoln as the creator of a “free black America”.
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The fact that we are arguing of racial differences in intelligence on a pickup blog says that this something important to people. While I understand that there is some intersection between these ideas and those of pickup (all that evo psych stuff), it points to the real problem of an over reverence for intelligence.
Intelligence is very important. It is positively linked with lots of good things; lack of it is linked with bad things. It is an important thing, but not the only thing. How many high IQ types would love the skills of a great athlete, the moves of a great dancer, or the charisma of a great orator? (I realize that these skills do not preclude high intelligence). The current economic problems show that high IQ types with their abstract models of the world can cause plenty of problems too. It was not 100 IQ high school graduates who created the CDO, CDS, MBS, and all the other “just so” models that blew up “just so” perfectly.
This excess reverence for intelligence leads to another problem, we refuse to accept that some will be below average. Not every student will go to college (at least not a course of traditional rigor). Not every child will be at grade level (unless you lower grade level enough). Not all of us will earn above average income.
Given our usual topic of conversation, we must realize that some (50 percent to be accurate) men will be below average in their pickup ability, and some women will be below average in attractiveness (again, 50 percent).
The racial angle to this makes it more painful, and more difficult to talk about. However, we should not lose sight of the more important question, which is creating a society where everyone (or at least most) can find a place. Not every job really needs a college education, not every job needs a 120 IQ, and not every job needs highly quantitative or abstract reasoning. We will always have snobbery and status seeking, but there will always be dignity in a useful life. Finding a way for most of us to partake in a useful life is probably a better question than who is smarter, Blacks, Whites, or Jews.
There could be a joke there: “A black, a white, and Jew walk into a Mensa meeting…”
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Vladamir had an interesting comment:
As an example, one such piece of evidence is the human language ability. It’s an incredibly complex mental facility whose underlying functionality is still largely mysterious. In particular, it’s nearly impossible to learn a foreign language perfectly as an adult, but kids manage to do it spontaneously just by listening to it, using some mysterious brain mechanism that shuts down around the age of 12. And guess what — this ability is strikingly uniform across the entire human race: a child of any ethnicity will become a perfect native speaker of any language if it’s just exposed to it sufficiently. (This fact is entirely uncontroversial and backed by mountains of empirical evidence.) If human races have diverged neurologically in their evolution as much as the “race realists” would like us to believe, it seems very implausible to me that this extremely complex mental mechanism still somehow remained entirely unchanged. (Notice that the computations that your brain has to make to produce a grammatical sentence are much more complex than the ones necessary to solve a typical IQ test problem.)
Of course, this is only one example that doesn’t prove anything conclusively by itself. However, I think it illustrates well the myopic perspective of the “race realist” theories. They’re good at concocting arguments that sounds plausible or even conclusive to laymen, but so was von Daeniken in his heyday.
Talking about the difference in learning language between adults and children is very interesting, HOWEVER, using this as evidence as to lacking brain differences is sketchy to say the least.
First, there are a few, limited, but they are out there, who remain able to learn languages extrememly rapidly as adults. So uniformity go bye-bye even in the acid test of off/on.
Also, what is the selection pressure to break the ‘learn language’ code? Seems to me that breaking it so it doesn’t work…. would be bad.
Also, some kids DO have language speaking problems(why don’t you google) so it isn’t uniform even in-group.
Also, since it isn’t well understood, how exactly do you know there ISN’T subtle, but real, differences between groups?
However, yeah, the IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ IQ chant of the race ‘realists’ is ‘real’ annoying.
That said, everyone knows that mass immigration is an extreme disaster. Especially for blacks.
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Vladamir showed he didn’t get it at all:
The first one is false, and the second is politically suicidal in practice — not just for them, but also for anyone else who might want to argue any positions on any issues that they’ve spoken in favor of.
That’s right Vladamir! They need to chop off and completely ignore everyone to the right of them, so that the people slightly to the left of them can discuss issues they’ve talked about!
Of course, those to the slight left of them should chop VDARE off completely, so that those to the slight left of those to the slight left of VDARE can talk about them!
Repeat this to whatever interation you want.
Yeah, I’ve seen the full-bore censorship/ostracization/rabid-screaming-whore technique on liberal blogs. They all LOVE that argument. It is their first immediate action.
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Gunslingergregi
You do realize don’t you that these thoughts of the soon coming “exponential change”, the “singularity”, the coming “robotic future” when machines do all our work for us and fuck everyman better than your favorite porn star made faithful and with a face like Monaca Bellucci, the coming “human genetics revolution”, when we’ll all live forever or damn close and be smart and beautiful/handsome, and hung as hell to boot — are all sceintific/teckie versions of “the end of days” — don’t you?
Or versions of the hereafter, or heaven and 72 virgins, or escape from the wheel of dharma?
Yeah technical progress will continue so long as we can keep the barbarians from the gates and stave off another dark age.
But the end of days ain’t never coming. In this life or some imagined next one. Escaping the wheel of dharma is more realistic though. In the sense of “lights out”.
But most people will always want to believe something else.
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And that argument is this:
To be my ‘friend’ you have to reject anyone who holds any views I don’t like, or else!
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Of course, liberals only practice this when it is ‘useful’. Obama was associated with the Weather Underground Terrorists. The liberals didn’t care about him rejecting THAT did they?
In fact, they positively refused to make him do that. Even Reverend “Aids was made to kill black people” Wright was hard for them to reject.
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Most people with any sort of political affiliation give more of a pass to the “extremist” side they lean to, while considering the other end of the spectrum total nutjobbery that ought to be banned from public discourse.
Plenty of nice, inoffensive, moderate liberals give a pass to the more obnoxious antics of, say, the SPLC. Or Reverend Wright, lol.
“But they mean well!”
And that’s about how I feel about most of the Stormfront crowd.
Yeah, they’re lowbrow, and yeah, some of them aren’t playing with a full deck, but they are trying to make sense out of the world around them with the limited information and understanding they possess.
To shun them entirely is to place Sailer and cronies at the brink of the Extreme Right, which is strange, since Sailer, for instance, is actually quite nuanced and is often actually pro-black.
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I believe that the world will change drastically before I die, and that the change itself may kill me, or change me with it. Probably both.
Nuther words, I don’t know what’s going to happen, exactly. But things will not look as they do now.
Especially not once I’ve installed my bionic eyes.
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Good comment re. Stormfront, OMW. I’ll confess never actually gone on that site or commented there except for visiting once – but the web site’s organization seemed too confusing to figure out where the threads are.
The only far-right sights I’ll visit are American Renaissance, and Majority Rights on occasion. But the former is soo full of despair it makes me want to put a gun to my head. Jared Taylor is briliant and does good work, but the comments on the whole snuff out any hope and desire to live. Maybe that’s why Christian theology regards despair as a very serious sin — it kills your will to live and act.
Majority Rights on the other hand (along with Age of Treason) gets stuck in the whole Jew-thing. And monomania in a trap.
By the way, someone on Mencius’s “Unqualifed Reservations” blog made this very apt observation about Stormfront:
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PA —
Trenchant, as usual.
I don’t know about always. But yeah it sure does a whole lota the time, doesn’t it?
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Not for me it doesn’t. After 7 years in Asia, I get what nearly all expats get. Yellow fever. You just lose your taste in most white girls. To large, too masculine.
Where are the mixed race Asian/White girls at? Now that’s a question worth pondering.
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ay, PA, if I felt my choices were to muddle together a kind of vague amalgamation of Celtic-crosses-and-swastikas, or spend my days watching Povich with my mulatto grandchildren in our overheated trailer, I’d take the former, too.
Poverty itself is not so bad, but poverty without roots is deeply dehumanizing.
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PA
Yes, that quote from Mencius is excellent. This part especially–
I wouldn’t say I sympathize much though. Understand is more like it. That is a dangerous direction. It’s one that lacks all balance, or most balance. It does lead to fascism. Which may not be worse than real leftist extremist dictatorship (communism) but it sure isn’t better.
One way to sum up or encapsulate the difference between genuine race realism (realizing that over the last year or three or so a good number of white nationalist types and even committed ones are calling themselves race realists, at least outside their own web zone) and racism, is the difference between Steve Sailer and Jared Taylor. Steve Sailer is a genuine race realist, and not a separatist or supremacist, including how he got there, while Jared Taylor is probably the most articulate, and knowledgeable white separatist.
Steve Sailer knows that all who have become citizens of the United States are here for good, and that we all must get along. He knows we are going to intermingle and live amongst each other to some extent, while also wanting to have separate enclaves to some extent. Most blacks as well as whites want that. He also believes in telling the truth, the best we can genuinely discover it unclouded by ideology or political restrain, and in tailoring immigration policy for good of our current citizens, rather than the would be ones who come in illegally. He believes that telling the truth would also benefit the education of minorities greatly, and so on. He’s not trying to retard black progress, but to increase it — by being honest. (Though he’s probably against affirmative action — though I don’t think I’ve ever seen him take a position.)
Jared Taylor who I’ve read much less, but enough to have a good idea where he’s coming from, actually has a similarly sophisticated understand of racial differences as Sailer does, and seems to also keep up with the scientific evidence reasonably well. He understands overlapping bell curves as opposed to platonic spheres perfectly well.
Nonetheless his preferred solution to what he sees as the sacrificing of white interests, particularly non Jewish male white interests, in America at every turn, is to try to seperate the races as much as possible. Or anyway and especially the white and black races.
It’s deeply impractical given where we are, and also if fully implemented threatens to turn into something a lot uglier.
As for Vdare, it mixes genuine race realists with some who tend towards white separatism. I don’t read it very much, except for Sailer, though I do from time to time. It does get repetitive. It’s worth seeing what they have to say though.
Some of the best genuine race realism goes on at the Gene Expression site — or did. Read the 2003 archives especially. It sort of exhausted the topic some time ago, though it keeps up with new scientific info on that as well as a host of other genetic findings of interest (especially human genetic ones), as well as human biological and cultural evolution. As well at one point there was an influx of white nationalist types into the comments, and Razib quickly got sick of them, and more or less harassed them away. From time to time he’s pre-selected comments, for that reason and also to police the quality of comments esp. from newbies. But usually this doesn’t have to last for too long.
Razib also reads and reports back on a lot of history from a cultural evolution point of view. The site has been running strong since 2003, and actually began in 2002. It was lead initially by the dark skinned Muslim Bangladeshi Razib and the dark skinned S. Indian Brahmin Hindu Godless Capitalist (both atheists). Razib is still the major domo of the site, but it’s long since become a sort of blogging collective, with four or five other regular contributors. (GC, who’s a genetics researcher at a leading NYC facility has long since bowed out to focus on his work and PUA fun and games, though he occasionally pops back in through comments. G. Cochran also comments there from time to time.) Agnostic is one. He focuses on social research, his academic specialty I believe.
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Reminds me of a joke.
Two elderly Jewish men are sitting in a park talking. They get to discussing what paper they read.
The first mentions the local liberal Jewish weekly, the second a white nationalist weekly. “How can you read that trash?” asks the first.
The second man replies: “I read your paper, and all I hear is that the Jews are oppressed, are hated, and under threat. I read my paper and I see how we own all the property, have all the money, control the press, control the banks, and control government. At my age I can do with some good news.”
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Vladamir —
You mean all the one’s who are full “out” and writing about race realism under their real names in academic publications that aren’t extremely technical are? If so then that would be closer to the truth.
But if you read closely, you’ll realize that Steve Pinker (of Harvard and formerly MIT), one of the nation’s leading psychology of language experts and for that matter one of our leading experimental psychologists period, is a race and gender realists — though he avoids making any sweeping or “indictable” states, particularly on the race side. He’s not remotely alone.
Remember that the one of the leading genetics luminaries in the country, who build up the Cold Springs Harbor genetics institute from scratch, James Watson, was fired a year or so from his job for saying a few off the cuff well intentioned by un PC things to a UK general circulation newspaper reporter (the Independent) about the average level of intelligence in sub Saharan Africa and who that effects economic development there, and should be taken into account in tayloring development programs. You know the Watson who with Crick won the Nobel Prize for discovering DNA?
See my discussion in my immediately prior comment of the blog Gene Expression. That’s become perhaps THE place on the web to exchange views and news on scientific findings touching on human genetics and human evolution. It’s part of a sort of cross referring group of sites that discuss such things. It’s a sort of blogging collective at this point, still overseen and ultimately commanded by Razib. All but one of the contributors are young or youngish, and the one who isn’t is pretty infrequent, marginal, and writes about history, esp. steppe warrior history. (John Emerson.)
It’s my impression that perhaps a majority of researchers in human genetics have come to have race realist views. The same is true, and perhaps more so, for researchers in human psychometrics. Measurement of psychological differences. But it’s kept soto voce, anonymous on the web, or highly technical.
You don’t get tenue in the leftist academy by being out about race realism. You don’t advance to full professor that way either. With some slack for Asians and other non whites. Some.
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The problem with people like Mencius (who is pretty brilliant) is that their being Jews means that they have to analyze everything ignoring 100% any input of Jews in the culture. And while putting all the blame on Jews is not fair too, 0% is also just not true. And hiding any wrong-doing by Jews undermines their credibility.
Vladimir: if you think Blacks, Whites and Asians are neurologically uniform… I mean, well, PC makes you stupid. Incredibly so.
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Re: intermarriage. There were plenty of Blacks in Mexico, they mostly inter-married and there are now basically no “Black” looking folks, the mestizo principle at work. Other latin nations such as Brazil and the Dominican and Cuba have radically different social norms, and Blacks remain quite distinct and often discriminated against. Racial strife is a fact of life in Brazil and Cuba, in fact crony regimes of socialistic bent seem to exacerbate that sort of conflict.
King vs. Malcolm X. King argued the traditional Black aspirational point of view, for inclusion and “normalization” arguing that separatism culturally and politically was stupid and a dead end. Unfortunately X’s cultural separatism won the hearts and minds of Blacks, and remains to this day a major source of Black dysfunction and cultural collapse. From Duke Ellington to Chris Brown, in a few generations.
Re: intermarriage. As long as the system produces no great losers, people will support it (if the prospective spouses are seen as good matches). People are not that picky. A growing number of Asian men, even though they are seen as less masculine, are marrying White women, in the SWPL crowd, who are very particular and separatist (they NEVER live in Black neighborhoods). Black women for a number of reasons (mostly cultural and obesity rerlated) are not seen as desireable mates by White men. Thus, on balance White men dislike Black-White intermarriage because they LOSE.
Asking a guy to lose at mating opportunities is just begging for trouble. Asking a whole bunch of them to lose is creating a sub-rosa set of conflicts, with some of the most nasty racist attitudes bubbling under the surface, rarely openly expressed, ALWAYS acted upon.
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“OMV
Poverty itself is not so bad, but poverty without roots is deeply dehumanizing.”
Dam I think you hit that too. OMV on a roll. Where I go people can be poor as fuck literally living in thatch hut. But they still have a culture together. When people leave and make money they come back to the same area to live. You have poor and rich living close together and they get along somehow it is amazing.
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Whiskey–
I think the men of most, no make that all, races dislike seeing their females, at least their more desirable females, marry or for that matter “get with” the men of other races. Their fatties etc. not so much. It’s just that black men can be more or less open about this and get a pass. While white men will be vilified as horrific racists. And we all know there’s absolutely nothing worse, for real, in PC culture than being called a racist and having it stick. In fact that’s one of the principal cudgels that PC uses to keep the grudgingly faithful in line. The other main one is the “fascist” label.
Anyway, back to where I was going…
However, I think there’s a lot more concern about this among whites, and gloating or smugness about his among black men, than the facts warrant.
Less than 1% of white women marry black men, and in fact the number is about 0.5%. Because there are a lot fewer black men than white women in this country, AND because less than half of black men every marry anyone (and usually not for long) it’s also true that about 7% of married black men marry white women. That would lead to less that half that number and probably less than 3% of black men being married to white women. Further in many of these cases the white women are lower class fatties. And yes sometimes far lefties who are lower class at all. But rarely beauty queens also.
Obviously the percentage of white women who have ever fucked a black man is a lot higher. (And a lot of white guys have fucked black chics too. I certainly have. Several in fact. A very small percentage of my total. One tall, slender Haitian exotic beauty of a kind is coming to mind right now. A real golddigger, but damn hot in the moving it department, if less so in the looks one, to me. Yeah, I prefer white girls, or Eurasians, or Asians that look Eurasian.)
So too is the number who have had a real black boyfriend.
But the white girls who really go to town fucking black guys are, for the most part true big time sluts.
White it’s bad news for any guy to marry a slut, and especially bad news for any white beta, even a higher beta, to do so, the worst bet of all is a white girl who’s been a big time black cock slut. Can you say divorce or cuckold city not so long into your married future?
Of course one of the things women most reliably and skillfully lie about is how many men they’ve fucked or blown, and or how easy/quick they’ve been in the past with guys that turned them on enough. They’ve been doing it with application their entire sexually active life, and observing other women do it for longer than that. Or, in the case of ideologically “out” big time sluts, as soon as they go husband or even relationship shopping. And remember even those ones have been observing how it’s done forever.
However, if a girl vigorously defends interracial dating, especially with some emotion against those who have a problem, as opposed to mildly and theoretically — you’ve had your tell. Might not be 100% accurate, but it’s way up there.
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“dougjnn
Gunslingergregi
Any thought on what comes along with that exponential change is going to be perfect war.
You do realize don’t you that these thoughts of the soon coming “exponential change”, the “singularity”, the coming “robotic future” when machines do all our work for us and fuck everyman better than your favorite porn star made faithful and with a face like Monaca Bellucci, the coming “human genetics revolution”, when we’ll all live forever or damn close and be smart and beautiful/handsome, and hung as hell to boot — are all sceintific/teckie versions of “the end of days” — don’t you?
Or versions of the hereafter, or heaven and 72 virgins, or escape from the wheel of dharma?
Yeah technical progress will continue so long as we can keep the barbarians from the gates and stave off another dark age.
But the end of days ain’t never coming. In this life or some imagined next one. Escaping the wheel of dharma is more realistic though. In the sense of “lights out”.
But most people will always want to believe something else.”
Technology is already here. I am sure you have heard of a .50 Cal but now that can be used without emotion to exterminate millions or billions of people. Already have technology to have remote control accurate guns. Already have technology for remote controlled vehicles. Just who will be the first country to achieve anti air capability and anti missle capability while at the same time having a dictator like hitler rise up.
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Obviously the percentage of white women who have ever fucked a black man is a lot higher.
A very small number; most women who aren’t sluts stick with one race. Usually their own, but not always.
Thus, on balance White men dislike Black-White intermarriage because they LOSE.
The “numbers thing” is a very small factor in whites’ dislike of BM-WF pairing. The strongest opponents of miscegenation are not young single guys, but fathers of white girls, who according to your logic should welcome black guys as more “options” for their daughters. And that’s clearly not the case.
Poverty itself is not so bad, but poverty without roots is deeply dehumanizing.
Roots and a future. OMW’s description of poor trailer park people is sublime in showing the tragedy of peopel who have no future.
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Whiskey —
BTW, I suspect the explosion of interracial porn of the back man on white woman variety in recent years (even five years ago it was still fairly rare, though always out there to some extent), including a fair amount of the cuckold variety it seems, has fueled this anxiety. I seriously wonder if it isn’t having a big psychological effect, and not a good one.
The issues that especially the many heavily betaized white males have these days getting laid by non fatties is no doubt a good part of the reason for this black male on white female masochistic market. (Even though the reality is that the vast majority of the women they wish they were banging are being banged by white guys like Roissy rather than black guys like Obsidian, the great majority of the time.)
Of course the hyper feminism reflected in American entertainment media and education and often families these days is how so many males not blessed with very high levels of T or good role model fathers (or other relatives or childhood role models) is how this came about — to the race that before WWII ruled almost the whole world.
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Whiskey —
Oh, and there’s no denyin. that in the last few years Hollywood has been showing strong black males hooking up with white females on the big and little screens far more frequently than ever before. It seems like a real propaganda campaign.
It’s always been there to some extent, or has been ever since Sidney Poitier anyway, but it also sort of died out for the most part after a sixties and early seventies early exploratory push.
That is it did until the last several years, really increasing a lot the last three or four I’d say.
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PA —
I wish you’d attribute when you quote.
The first one is from me, and I’m happy with it and your response.
The second is from Whiskey I believe but many quick readers may assume that that two was from me. It doesn’t reflect what or how I think, so that I’m not happy about at all.
So please identify who you’re quoting from, ‘kay?
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So please identify who you’re quoting from, ‘kay?
No problemo. I’ve never identified the sources of my cited quotes, never thought it was an expected etiquette. But I’ll do so in your case, if it’s important to you.
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It always comes down to this, doesn’t it — where da white women at?
In your mind white people will never be “good” until they cheerfully lay their daughter as sacrifices to the miscegenation minotaur. That’s what everything comes down to for you.
It will always come down to the accessibility of white women as potential long-term spouses, white people as friends, colleagues, employers, and white areas as places to live and visit.
It seems that we’ll never agree on this topic as you see white purity as paramount to maintaining white culture, and I see my access to whites as paramount to my social freedom. Of course, I view racial purity as a joke of a concept while view it as a necessary tool for maintaining white culture.
Or Reverend Wright, lol.
He’s a fucking turd who makes black people look bad.
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Discovery of the day:
roissy.blogspot.com is totally different from roissy.wordpress.com.
Sample:
http://roissy.blogspot.com/2005/07/begging-to-be-used-at-your-leisure.html
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DA
Who on this board has ever suggested limiting those things to you, even by cultural pressure as opposed to law?
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Just as an example, my cousin married an Australian. They have bi-racial children. Per PA, I should be freaking out about a white guy defiling a black woman and creating impure black children. The kids certainly don’t look like their mother or their great-grandmother, yet somehow, I don’t feel the need to freak out.
For all intents and purposes, I’m not going to force a family that doesn’t want their daughter to date a black guy to do it, but if I do find one, I want society not to freak out about it.
And yes, if I don’t find a white woman, I may consider holding out and staying single.
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Look at air force not hard to get them to drop a 2000 pound bomb on a target. Not hard to get artillery to drop rounds on a target either. Both those targets may have innocent people in them neither the ariforce or artilley has to see the affects. Now boots on the ground sees affects first hand. When you turn the boots on the ground into the same as air force or artillery and they don’t see affects you have perfect war machine. Now if you take boots on the ground and they are run by people who don’t even know what they are doing to someone else you have capability to exterminate everyone you want to. No need to have a reason or dehumanize the enemy if they are being killed by someone who thinks they are playing a game. Kind of cool we have capability for end of days and it is so simple. Suppose US could achieve it first use it to disarm rest of world of nukes and really create one world order so that the technology could never be used by anyone on planet to do that. Perhaps.
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spandrell,
What evidence do you have that mencius is Jewish? You know he writes under a nome de plume, right?
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Furthermore, there is actually some quite striking evidence for the neurological uniformity of humanity, at least in certain respects.
We already know of biological ethnic differences that have evolved due to cultural differences. For example, almost no Scandinavians are genetically lactose intolerant, southern Finns are commonly genetically lactose intolerant and most northern Finns are lactose intolerant. The obvious explanation is that dairy became a part of the Scandinavian diet early but made to Finland late and never actually became a part of the truly arctic diet.
Given that we already know that many physical traits have been modified by the history of civilization, it would seem miraculous if behavioural traits would not have been molded by the history of civilization. A more continuous history of law and order would’ve continuously taken criminals out of the gene pool. This is somewhat the pattern we observe: East Asia with the stablest and the oldest civilizations seems to have the most innately civilized people and then it goes downhill from there.
It’s also the pattern here. We’ve long wondered the pervasive difference between Finns and Scandinavians, namely, why are Finns so much more barbarous. The same policies always give us several times the murders, the assaults, whatever. Genetic explanations for the ethnic difference are actively sought and discussed. I for one believe we’ll simply find Finns innately more psychopathic, for the natural reason that Scandinavia has had law for a long time while Finland was mostly a lawless borderland until recently. It will then be a small step to compare races.
America has its race taboos, but in Europe they’re imports imposed by law and do not have the same mental power that they do in America, especially not in countries without colonial history, and in any case ethnic, genetic differences in behaviour between Europeans are discussed freely and with eager passion. Even if the work doesn’t get done in America, it will get done here. And then…
However, you won’t read much about it, because the PC side in the debate believes it unnecessary to present any evidence for their position; they rely on “arguments” from moral superiority and character assassination (which, you must admit, is a very effective political tactic).
Effective now, but in the long run it’s an entirely a losing strategy. PC is painting itself in a corner. Their side will be irrelevant in the future if they cannot appropriate the coming genetic revolution.
Even if whatever differences we find are minor and the race realist crowd is technically wrong, that will still hand the political victory to the race realist crowd if the SWPLites keep their absolutism even on the idea of minor differences. I think it’s by now very unlikely that the race realists could lose the whole war even if they’re getting character assassinated in a battle after another. PC has nothing whatsoever besides scare tactics and rhetorical tricks. It works at first but the longer it goes on the more obvious the lack of substance gets.
(Remember that all the academic luminaries of the “race realist” movement — Jensen, Rushton, Lynn, Gottfredson — are geezers; none of them are under 60 years old.)
Yes. That race realist movement is giving way to another, more refined one that’s still forming. It’s obvious that new data in biology is going to reform the movement, soon, but without it there’s really no way to get beyond Jensen and buddies and why bother inviting a shitstorm on yourself when you have nothing to add on Jensen?
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Dave Alexander,
It is the kids who really freaks out about it and don’t know who they belong to.
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DA
I know you were speaking to PA there, and I’ll let him speak for himself.
But I don’t think that way at all. I don’t think in terms of white purity. But I also wouldn’t want a daughter marrying or having children with a black man. (I’m childless but I have an imagination and I also have 3 nieces.) I’m not absolutist about it (aside from know I’d hardly have full control over her decisions), but it would bother me. It would bother me the least if he was a truly accomplished, eltel college and did well there, brainy and gentlemanly black guy, and I sensed that wasn’t just an act for the parents. It would bother me the most if it felt like she was marrying downscale or way downscale for solely animal passions sort of reasons. I wouldn’t want her marrying that sort of white or other race guy either, but especially not a black one. There are big cultural differences, hightened with that sort — in addition to the genetics of the gandkids thing.
Consider this also. In America, any kids she has will be black. Not mixed but black. They well have all kinds of pressures, especially from the black father and his black friends and family, and the black community and blacks at her school, to self identify as black. Not mixed but black. She (i’m assuming a black daughter of my white daughter here) will to a large extent be lost to the white community.
These pressures and pulls will also tend to alienate my white daughter form me, her white father.
White people today are fully prepared to talk about mixed, esp. when it’s fifty fifty or more than that white. Blacks what to claim all people as fully Black when they’ve got any noticeable about of black blood in them at all. Yeah it used to be reversed, with whites insisting on the one drop rule, but not any more. Not by a long shot.
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DA
Australia, where blacks are scarce and hence of greater sexual and marriage market value, is one thing. America is another.
Your chances of marrying a white woman, given that less than 3% of black men do, are extremely remote. Way less than 3% because you are, as you know, David Alexander. Your only realistic hope is a lower class fattie.
Go for a light skinned black girl who’s a little overweight but has big tits – and does her nails real nice. (Big tits or will get implants for you.) Probably a shortie. Best shot.
You’re never going to get a pretty white girl DA. Well never unless you agree to become her devoted cuckold and get a good job. Even then it a real long shot. She’ll go for a white cuckold with a good job instead.
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Steve Sailer is a genuine race realist, and not a separatist or supremacist, including how he got there, while Jared Taylor is probably the most articulate, and knowledgeable white separatist.
The problem that I have is that the work Steve Sailer does just ends up helping guys like Jared Taylor and advancing their causes, especially since that the only real effective solution to the problem is the separatist route.
they mostly inter-married and there are now basically no “Black” looking folks, the mestizo principle at work
See, Mexico solved the black people problem by breeding it away! If we breed away black people, we won’t have to worry about them! 🙂
Thus, on balance White men dislike Black-White intermarriage because they LOSE.
Admittedly, white men still get the pool of Asian women to loot from and “whiter” Latinas. I’d wonder if increasing interracial relationships between black and whites are leading to more feminine looking bi-racial female children that may be more palatable for white male consumption.
King vs. Malcolm X
One must remember that both have different world views which can be attributed to varying factors. I suspect Malcolm X’s period and prison and exposure to the Nation of Islam and his contempt for his white ancestry along with living in the North where de facto segregation created strong isolation of the black community from other whites influenced his thinking considerably. Plus, it didn’t help that his father’s participation in early-black nationalist organization may have lead to his death.
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pre-implantation genetics is going to make a lot of the talk about race less relevant in the first world in the coming decades:
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/science/2009/march/Designer-Baby-Service-Put-on-Hold.html
so, we already have a strong idea of what the genes are and how to manipulate hair color, eye color, and skin color.
in the foreseeable future, it’s entirely probable that we’ll be able to manipulate more complicated genetic factors, like height, IQ, and- even facial morphology.
if you read the article, you’ll see that there was a strong outcry from certain segments of our society that opposed this.
it doesn’t matter.
no one has been able to stop science. the outcry caused a delay, like what happened to galileo eons ago. nothing more. eventually, the demand from the greater public will mute the concerns of the liberal elite and the christian rightwingers.
despite what the elites say, if you watch telemundo, univision or bollywood, you can clearly see that the brown masses in all these areas strongly prefer to idolize the most lighter featured members of their respective groups as being (on average) the most attractive. in fact, all heterogeneous countries to varying degrees practice strong social preferences toward lighter featured looks. the public demand will not be circumscribed forever.
nonetheless, my guess is that it will first happen in high iq, homogeneous countries, like china or south korea.
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Dam how bout that shit. Wild article freak.
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In America, any kids she has will be black. Not mixed but black.
Supposedly, this is one of the reasons why she isn’t interested in moving back to the States. Shew grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan before gentrification, and she grew tired of black girls making fun of her because she didn’t act black. She doesn’t want her kids to suffer a similar fate (although, the kids are rather white looking compared to her), so she’s considering moving back to London.
Admittedly, the problem is that not every black guy who marries white girl is a David Alexander type. If I had kids, I’d want them to be exposed to both cultures. It is possible to be half-white AND half-black, and it’s perfectly fine to eat plantains and brie, and celebrate Oktoberfest and Carnival.
I should note that it was one of the problems my mother had with the media over the Obama campaign. She felt that his pronouncement of him being the first black president was over hyped given that he’s the son of an higher ranking African and he went to high ranking private schools. For her, he’s not black in the “African-American” sense, and the hype pretty much covered up the fact that he’s half-white. In other words, he’s a fluke and simply a dark-skinned WASP.
Your chances of marrying a white woman, given that less than 3% of black men do, are extremely remote.
I’m holding out for a white girl, and I want the high IQ advantage that it brings and without being a cuckold. I do feel sorry for my brother since he’s holding out for an Asian girl.
Who on this board has ever suggested limiting those things to you, even by cultural pressure as opposed to law?
Race realism will bring the cultural pressure that will limit those things.
It is the kids who really freaks out about it and don’t know who they belong to.
Don’t worry, self-hating oreo types like myself have the same problem. We like white stuff, but we don’t fit in, and some black people think we’re weird and sell-outs.
PC has nothing whatsoever besides scare tactics and rhetorical tricks.
And race realism has no real solution other than separatism or hoping and praying for black people not to become jealous and riot.
pre-implantation genetics
Shudder, in vitro fertilization, how crude and unmasculine…
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Gunslingergregi
They may not at first, but quite soon the son or daughter of a white mother and a black father learn that they belong to the blacks. They learn in school if not at home. They learn from peers, especially their black peers. They learn from their black grandparents, while their white one’s feel contrained in what they can say because of the threat and stigma of being called “racist” for the mildest breaches of PC in this area. And PC dictates that the child is black. So the white grandparents give up calling them mixed, or anyway certainly give up objecting to the other grandparents and the parents calling their child black. And so it goes.
But you’re right the child does feel conflicted most of the time, unless the white mother and white parents are very PC or more likely very leftist PC. And even then some.
Because the child feels disloyal to his or her white grandparents and white mother. This tears at many hearts. It’s usually more or less resolved, never totally, by going further in to the assertion of unconflicted blackness mode, and the historical wickedness of whites mode and just deserts and righting of wrongs and so on and so forth.
Not so pretty from the point of view of the white parents of a white daughter. Good reason to not want her to marry black. Among others.
But of course we aren’t allowed to talk about or around this. Which is why a lot of this may seem new to many people. And I almost guarantee I’ll have quotes thrown in my face from these interracial marriage posts of mine to “prove” that I’m a “vile racist”. Though I’m not. Just a genuine realist. In everything. Or try to be.
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This excess reverence for intelligence leads to another problem, we refuse to accept that some will be below average.
I suspect that’s why Marxist/Socialist/Communist ideology may appeal to some people. For some, the idea that people are unequal in talents and abilities haunts them and creates guilt, and for them, these political and economic philosophies are appealing since they espouse the equality of all people. In the case of SWPLs, they’re capitalists with guilt, and while Communism isn’t appealing, there is this theoretical idea that everybody should be a comfortable upper middle class type like them, and that the presence of poor people and income inequality is a failure of society. In other words, a society of rich and merely not as rich.
Plus, to a certain extent, among the SWPL types, white people who do blue collar work are failures because they’re too lazy to go to college. They feel that because they went to college, they should get a higher income instantly because they’re simply better by virtue of their diploma.
However, we should not lose sight of the more important question, which is creating a society where everyone (or at least most) can find a place.
The problem is that would require somebody to pay the low IQ inflated wages for “low IQ” work, and quite frankly, nobody wants to do that since it cuts into profits.
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“Unfortunately X’s cultural separatism won the hearts and minds of Blacks, and remains to this day a major source of Black dysfunction and cultural collapse.”
That is not necessarly true. It’s two visions: In one, blacks are a normal people and as such should be entitled to their own land, costumes, rules, and all, in another, blacks are just the eternal victims, the slaves of the whites who are entitled to be what they will never be: white folks.
It’s like opting for DA’s when you already had strong, vibrant and despite all the problems relatively safe black comunities across the U.S. in the 1950s when compared to now. Why to destroy them?
re: To make them white. So that America is more white.
How do you do that?
re: Making America less white. voilá!
MLK means two things: 1)Blacks are inferior and should be somewhat tolerated and accepted by whites and 2)Blacks are always the victims of white somethingism.
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And PC dictates that the child is black.
In some cases, the product of the relationship is dark-skinned with some black features, and what ends up happening is that when the child is in the street, most Americans regardless of race will think of the child as black, and refer to it as black. To a certain extent, if people keep bombarding the child in public by calling it black, it will see itself as black. At that point, the role of the white family isn’t to give up, but to continue to embrace the child and share the culture and make it feel welcomed not just at home, but in the world itself.
Yeah, I know, it sounds like liberal, warm-hearted do-gooder claptrap.
Weird Fact: My nephew is light-skinned compared to the rest of his maternal family, ever everybody calls him the “light one”. My niece is teased by other black kids and they call her “Spanish”, and she hates it to the point that I think she’s now racist against Hispanics…
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OMW
“I do hate knowing that my great-grandmother is surrounded by crazies in a previously staid working-class neighborhood. ”
I think you hit it on that one too. I do feel like shit that my parents have been left behind in the shithole. I guess that is one area where I could say I went out like a pussy. Only other recourse I saw though was just killing some folks. Hence I thought it better for me to move out. If I have to have a violent end I figure it has to be best to die at the hands of people I have always gotten along with. Which tend to be asian.
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What evidence do you have that mencius is Jewish? You know he writes under a nome de plume, right?
In his blog he says he is “half Jewish”, and descended from a grandfather who was a “Jewish communist”.
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roissy
This explains why so many chicks blab on and on about how “womanly”, “handsome”, “confident” or “sexy” older women look. They are downplaying the real competition — pretty young thangs.
A feminine woman is not competitive period, roissy. You seem unable to tell the difference.
On the happy home front! The Italian idiot is MARRIED and you should see the pictures. Revenge is sweet. The body language says many years of increasing misery are in store for the smirking has been husband and his blushing bride who looks like she aged 10 years in a matter of a month. The thing with misery? It’s compounded daily when you share it with a devoted partner.
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What genuine race realists who aren’t racists in disguise (and the great majority of intellectually and especially scientificly serious race realists leaving Jared Taylor aside as a rare exception are genuine) want is that the truth be told not just in obscure journals but to the general public, in a nuanced way.
They don’t want legally enforced separation much less supramacist segregation, but they do TEND to want a lot less legally compelled mixing as well (they tend to be libertarian, sort of). Laisse fair social and e.g marriage mixing is fine, certainly legally. Work mixing is necessary in any fair society and obviously fine and in fact good. They don’t want massive changes to or current democratic liberalism, though their politics don’t line up except for rarely being true lefties. They don’t want true irrational discrimination to be legal, but want an end to presuming discrimination by statistical methods that presume IQ and other equality between groups that far from existing, proveably, yes I said proveably doesn’t. (The only thing there’s any doubt about is how much of the IQ difference between blacks and whites is genetic, though the evidence that a lot is, is overwhelming, despite what the media, and fear of career distruction preventing much dissent, have lead most people to believe.)
I could go on.
DA, you think in terms of platonic spheres way to much. The only thing that’s somewhat true about is culture. I.e. there’s huge pressure to be either black OR white in this country, almost completely from the black side these days.
The biological reality and hence most human reality is overlapping bell curves. I suspect you don’t really know what that means. You may think you do, but I think you’re kidding yourself if so. Learn what it means. Google “overlapping bell curves”. Read several of the links. Look for graphs and non math, general audience, explanations.
The result of understanding overlapping bell curves is you’ll stop thinking “whites are smart but blacks are dumb, or less smart, unfortunately”. Instead you’ll realize, yeah the white average is smarter than the black average, and a much higher percentage of whites than blacks have IQ’s over some high number, let’s pick 130, but a whole hell of a lot of blacks are still that smart and smarter. Hundreds of thousands are. (I’m not checking the numbers at the moment. It might even be a million or so.) It’s just that for blacks that three sigmas above the black mean but for whites it’s only two sigmas above. (And for Ashkenazi Jews it’s only 1.5 to 1 sigmas up.) So a much higher percentage of whites are that smart.
Now take amount of T in men, which has both positive (animal attractiveness to women) and and negative (greater tendency towards violence and when coupled with lower IQ, criminality) aspects. There it’s blacks that have the right side bell curve, and whites that have the left shifted one, i.e. the less of that shfted curve.
There are still a whole lot of white alphas men with more T than the average black guy. And, given that there are 8x as many whites as blacks in America, the absolute number of white guys with more T might be higher as well.
See what I’m talking about.
You mostly talk in terms of one racial group being above or below another group on some trait. That’s platonic spheres thinking. It’s how we naturally think and how our language most easily goes, but it’s not a true reflection of biologically related reality.
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“The strongest opponents of miscegenation are not young single guys, but fathers of white girls, who according to your logic should welcome black guys as more “options” for their daughters. And that’s clearly not the case.”
That’s right. In the end, it comes up to:
1) How much you’ve been brainwashed
2) How much you vallue yourself and yours.
3) To women its different. I bet it is somewhat complicated to enter an interracial relationship if you have not been brainwashed and vallue yourself (if you follow your instincts and you think you have some vallue you will not go making children who will despise you like Hussein Obama) but for a man, it’s different:
Most men would put his hard penis deep into a snake’s throat just for fun. And then call it snake fever…
“Oh, and there’s no denyin. that in the last few years Hollywood has been showing strong black males hooking up with white females on the big and little screens far more frequently than ever before. It seems like a real propaganda campaign. ”
Well.. DAH!!! It’s the multicultural America. America must be multicultural (black or whatever) but those new-Americans (yeah, even if they are descendents of the slaves) must also get their bit of the American dream (white girls) because all the basis for Multiculti America is that America is great no matter what, not because of their inhabitants who built the Nation but because America is great! So, that’s a way to reconcile American multiculturalism with the American Dream.
They see DIEversity as something good, something that will not change America, as if the American dream was still possible in this new Obamic America.
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New headline out today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/14/AR2009031402176_pf.html
I wonder how this will effect the ability to Game DC women. I’m not from DC, but I already knew it had a high HIV rate. I *heard* that it stemmed from a relatively high black population, but I don’t know if that’s true.
Any thoughts on the repercussions for picking up women in DC given such a startling headline?
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Naa because aids can’t be real
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Instead you’ll realize, yeah the white average is smarter than the black average, and a much higher percentage of whites than blacks have IQ’s over some high number, let’s pick 130, but a whole hell of a lot of blacks are still that smart and smarter.
I’ve seen those charts, and they’re still relatively depressing since the black curve is still shifted to the left of the white curve. For all intents and purposes, the black curve has to be at the position of the white curve for black people to succeed, and for the curve to be possibly higher (with 125 IQ average) to crush any racism by people who freak out at different looking people.
Yeah, there are smart black people, but sadly, that’s just not enough in the short and long-term. To defeat racism and to promote integration, we need a population of black people that’s only composed of high IQ individuals with average white levels of testosterone.
You mostly talk in terms of one racial group being above or below another group on some trait.
Even with overlapping bell curves, that means that the average black person is still less intelligent and less capable than the average white person AND the fraction of smart black people is lower than than of smart white people. It’s depressing.
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David Alexander–
One thing I really do respect about you is your intellectual honesty. I wouldn’t say wisdom, although you sometimes have that on some topics far removed from the rules of sexual attraction, but honesty for sure. Honesty also isn’t the same as being fully informed about everything, but you play back honestly what you’ve experienced or learned. That’s valuable. And also rare. It’s particularly rare in black people talking about racial issues, in my experience. Not that most outright lie all the time in forums like this (though of course some of that’s always going on from all sides), but there’s a whole lot of heavy shading and partial truth tellin’, if you know what I mean. A whole hell of a lot.
I’d really want you to fully understand overlapping bell curves partly for that reason David Alexander. I think it well help ease your mind a lot too. I want you to understand those overlapping bell curves, as opposed to black vs. white “essences” aka platonic spheres.
When I say really understand, I’m not talking about in any real math kind of way. I’m talking about visualizing those overlapping bell curves. The vertical axis is percent of the (in this case) racial population in question. The horizontal axis is the amount of the trait in question, e.g. the amount of IQ or testosterone. It could also be the height in men versus women, which like almost all things biological within a species also falls on overlapping bell curves. (E.g. staying within the same race, the average man is taller than the average woman, and the tallest person in the world is for sure a man, but there are a lot of women who are taller than the average man.)
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“At least 3 percent of District residents have HIV or AIDS, a total that far surpasses the 1 percent threshold that constitutes a “generalized and severe” epidemic, according to a report scheduled to be released by health officials tomorrow.
That translates into 2,984 residents per every 100,000 over the age of 12 — or 15,120 — according to the 2008 epidemiology report by the District’s HIV/AIDS office.
“Our rates are higher than West Africa,” said Shannon L. Hader, director of the District’s HIV/AIDS Administration, who once led the Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s work in Zimbabwe. “They’re on par with Uganda and some parts of Kenya.” ”
That’s the funny statement. Years ago they were putting aid in zimbab at 45 percent. It can’t be true but it sure raised a lot of money.
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Guess thats why its called aids
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David Alexander —
Racism already is defeated in this country. Race realism is increasing due to the internet and, well scientific truth and reality, but that doesn’t mean bigotry is coming back. I don’t think it will. It’s too unfair.
It’s just that’s what’s going on now is also unfair. To non Jewish white men, especially. Especially those who aren’t way way up there in IQ, but high. Like in the 115-130 area. They bear the brunt of Affirmative Action from all sides, blacks, latinos and women. I’m way higher than that so haven’t. (Despite my mild dyslexia and penchant for fast typing and not editing most comment posts.) Whites with 125 IQs regularly lose spots to blacks with 110 ones.
BTW, I don’t really value IQ as the be all and end all. In actual fact force of personality, looks, height, leadership qualities which involve T, IQ and extroversion, and so on taken together are equally important. It’s just that there’s so much research on IQ differences and it’s so easy to reliably measure. (The later is a large part of the reason for the former too.)
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I just read the topics and then hastily the first sentences of the comments, it seemed it turned into chain-lateral about multiculture origin.
I am half Hungarian and half Serbian and i was born i Sweden, i looked different from the blond blue eyed type, never did i experience any severe problems, nothing i couldn’t handle,,
It depends on how sensitive you are, i can never be anything else that i am, and i rather explain my whole background at once, instead of trying to pretend something that i am not, Friends with similar background can suffer from the mildest comments as, where are you from? Due to last name or different appearance. I takes me one minute to explain who i am and get full acceptance by this.
Instead of making an uncomfortable situation, i rather point out who i am and people get less scared. Keeping up appearance is not a smart thing.
I accept weird comments, and i am not getting offended. Its fun to explain my differences, and i am proud of all my 3 nationalities, they are contributing to me and i would never be who i am without them.
I can see its different in the states, i cannot comment on that, i simply don’t know, i can just tell my story.
I think that people asking questions about my origin, do want to know, either they are curious or something worse, but it takes a minute to resolve.
I am going in a university with Arabs, Persians, Jews, Europeans, Americans Africans, and after a while you just realize, they are people you don’t get along with and its not culture dependent,, you can find idiots everywhere.
B
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David Alexander–
There isn’t an average black person or an average white person. That’s just a statistical concept. It’s a way of dealing with people and data en mass.
Each individual is different. Sure there are a lot of black people with IQ’s near the black average, or for that matter near the white average. But each of those individuals with have had a different history and influences. Some blacks near the black average on IQ will have very high testosterone and some very low, and some will be black average there too — while others will be white average there. Same on extroversion versus introversion. And so on.
Another way of putting it that you also don’t seem to grasp, and Ok some whites don’t either (but I think a lot more blacks dont for cultural reasons) is that a black guy with a 130 IQ is every bit as smart as a white guy with that same 130 IQ. His IQ is “really a bit lower or tainted” by his blackness. He’s really that smart.
The same can’t be said of a black guy at Stanford versus a white guy. Because of AA we can be a whole lot more sure that the white guy is goddam smart than that the black guy is, particularly if neither are on a big time college athletic team or legacy admits (although the degree of importance of the later in tilting the scales at already big endowment universities is greatly, and I do mean greatly, exaggerated). Remove AA and that will no longer be true.
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I’d really want you to fully understand overlapping bell curves partly for that reason David Alexander. I think it well help ease your mind a lot too. I want you to understand those overlapping bell curves, as opposed to black vs. white “essences” aka platonic spheres.
As I said, it really doesn’t change much. The problem is that overlapping bell curves still means that a sizable portion of the black population is still useless, and their actions and activities will dwarf those on the right side.
In other words, yes, there are black people with IQs in the 100-125 range. The problem is this “smart” fraction is too small to be useful. If the black curve was basically a mirror image of the white curve, I’d feel much better about myself, otherwise, it’s a sad depressing fact that dooms black people in general.
Racism already is defeated in this country. Race realism is increasing due to the internet and, well scientific truth and reality, but that doesn’t mean bigotry is coming back. I don’t think it will. It’s too unfair.
While racism is on the decline and mostly limited to the practises of individuals or small fringe groups, I just want to ensure that those individuals and fringe groups stay on the margin and become written off as crazy people. The problem is that race realism enables their groups, justifies their views, and makes people who are on the margin more sympathetic toward them.
In actual fact force of personality, looks, height, leadership qualities which involve T, IQ and extroversion, and so on taken together are equally important
All of that factors are useless with out the IQ needed to comprehend the situation at hand and to make the right decisions needed to become successful.
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Yes, this is what I’ve been saying for many years now. Except you don’t even need to alter the zygote or embryo – you simply infect the parents with virus that genetically alters their dna, and thus the dna of their offspring. The technology for that has existed for at least 7 years, as I recall.
I’ve been repeating this news since then, as it astounded me. I imagine it will take many more years before the facts sink into public imagination.
The race issue is historic. Say it ten times. The race issue is historic
What remains relevant, for a while, is religious demographics. But that will lose relevance once the smart people assimilate into the Borg.
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David Alexander —
You don’t need a huge amount of IQ to be a brilliant and highly successful, very very high earning salesman for example DA.
Black is not longer a big barrier to selling to whites, esp. if they’re also at big or medium sized organizations, these days. It may even often help. Sort of an intimidation factor. Afraid to say no to the black guy thing. Yeah that’s heavily PC generated.
115 is probably enough in selling almost any product. Yeah up to about 125 or so might help for more technical products, but it’s alphaness and people smarts that’s really important. Sales jobs, in addition to beauacratic ones, seem to be where a lot of black guys go in big corps and private enterprise generally these days. And yeah the black women go into human resources a lot.
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David Alexander —
So what you want then is for race realism of the genuine, scientifically based kind, to be thoroughly shut up and censored? On the internet too? Is that what you want? How about gender realism, which Roissy preaches and practices in spades?
I’ve already agreed with you that there’s no excuse for using it as an excuse for bigotry, e.g. for judging the intelligence or diligence of a particular job applicant by his race’s mean, as opposed to his own test results, grades, other history, and so on.
Further I’ve said that I know of no race realists who advocate allowing that.
Race realism may bolster calls for an end to affirmative action, but it could be used as a reason for insisting on it continuing. (I.e. differences which aren’t a groups fault should be compensated for by social policy as much as possible.)
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Yes, this is what I’ve been saying for many years now. Except you don’t even need to alter the zygote or embryo – you simply infect the parents with virus that genetically alters their dna, and thus the dna of their offspring. The technology for that has existed for at least 7 years, as I recall.
Where did you get this from????
I think this thought is quite impossible, how to affect the Spermatozoa or the oocytes, and by what genes?
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And race realism has no real solution other than separatism or hoping and praying for black people not to become jealous and riot.
How about being the least bad option? Whatever the coming chaos turns into, the solutions dreamed up in the un-PC regimes of the future will be more radical the longer and more absolutist the preceding PC rule gets.
Solutions or not, HBD will be utterly mainstream soon, a few decades at most. Science inevitably attracts the Galilei types for whom supposed consequences and the holiest taboos mean nothing. Solutions are for politicians. In the long run, if you cannot appropriate fresh science into your ideology your ideology is ruined. Letting the Inquisition loose on Galilei did more to turn Christianity into the limp joke it is than all the snarky atheist critics in a thousand years.
Everybody worships IQ. Since most people want to appear smarter than they are, most people attempt to imitate the ideas of those who are obviously brighter than them and hide ideas that the brighter don’t seem to hold. Gambling on empirical questions lost the brightest minds of Europe and turned a short term victory into the death of God.
Racism is right now strongly associated with stupidity and that’s the main reason why anti-racism rules: people often have unspoken ideas, but no one wants to risk coming across as stupid. Associate anti-racism with something stupid – like pretty much any inflexible, absolutist ideological position on yet unsettled empirical questions – and the domination of anti-racism is over. The field of race will be open to fresh ideologues and demagogues. If leftie liberals don’t start anticipating the change soon, they’re going to be stuck wishing that they had endorsed non-racist race realists when they still had the chance.
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Some people (like e.g. M. Blowhard for example, I’d guess, but many others) are no doubt thinking something like: “oh god, more race stuff. AGAIN!!! This is supposed to be a pickup artist site, or ok maybe also an anti-feminist gender analysis one also, but not all about race.
And ok, that’s right. But…
Roissy is nothing if not a gender realist, from an evolutionary psych point of view. He uses those insights in the service of his game skills. He also uses what works as a PUA employing game, to help inform, and convince others, of his gender insights. I.e. his beyond the pretty lies the leftists, in this case feminists, tell about gender, to hide the gender realism truths.
Gender realism leads to race realism, and vice versa. Pealing away one set of pretty lies leads to pealing away another — or does as soon as you read about it from someone who’s been to both places.
Yes this site is and should remain primarily about game and gender realism. I’m sure Roissy’s primary focus will continue to see to that. But a little race realism talk, while shunning all bigotry and racism and supremacism, doesn’t seem to me to be out of line, now and again.
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jaakkeli
That’s new to me and fascinating. Many thanks.
Your whole post was great in fact.
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The problem is that overlapping bell curves still means that a sizable portion of the black population is still useless, and their actions and activities will dwarf those on the right side.
This view comes from relentless SWPL indoctrination that only the right hand side of the bell curve is “useful” and that the only jobs worth having involve abstract symbol manipulation, which is what the right hand side of the curve is good at. This view is wrong and pernicious, not least because the left hand side of the curve will always exist and such people need to do something productive with their lives. It is simply crazy to try to make people on the left hand side of the curve as good at symbol manipulation as the people on the right hand side – it can’t be done, it makes the people on that side of the curve frustrated and angry, and it is a vast waste of educational resources.
What we need to do is teach the people on the left hand side of the curve real world skills (in short, vocational training). That portion of the population will not be “useless” if they are properly trained to be mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. Far from it – society needs skilled artisans as much, if not more, than it needs people who are good at abstract symbol manipulation (just try having a mathematician fix your toilet and see where that gets you). Of course, actually helping the left side of the curve instead of pretending that they can be dragged to the right would mean reinvigorating the manufacturing sector, among other things that the SWPL elite is unlikely to do.
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jaakkeli–
Yeah.
The key word in race realism is REALISM. What’s implied is that it’s realism about what ongoing science is telling us about racial differences, rather than e.g. some interpretation of far more subjectively summarized history, or the like. The exact same thing is true of gender realism, which is what Roissy talks about all the time, and which informs his game, and vice versa.
The key thing is to get the public realistic, with the nuances, about race white liberal democracy still holds sway.
One of the things that might cause it not to, is mass rebellion over being screw over by policies informed by PC make believe over gender and race realities. I’m talking about white male rebellion.
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This is supposed to be a pickup artist site, or ok maybe also an anti-feminist gender analysis one also, but not all about race.
We usually get onto race topics because different races, on average, have slightly different mating styles, stragegies, preferences, and abilities. Those are at least somewhat relevant to game.
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Finns and Swedes are not related ethnically. Furthermore, their culture is also very different.
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lehuster
Brilliant, and excellently written. That goes for you whole post.
I was going to respond to the same thing with the same thoughts but am very glad you got there first.
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biktopia–
You mean not closely related, or not recently related, which is pretty much the same thing.
We’re all related ethnically or racially if you go back far enough. Just a question of when the branch off occurred, and also how signficant the differences are, which tend to be related but aren’t always. Especially since we now know (or the evidence is strong) that human evolution as been accelerating down to the present, and that for example, there have has been a lot more significant genetic change in the last 10,000 years than than in the 40,000 that preceded it — in sharp contrast to what whas believed only a decade or two ago. See e.g. Cochran and Harpendig’s new book that’s got 10,000 years in the title.
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David Alexander– One thing I really do respect about you is your intellectual honesty
I agree. One thing I feel compelled to say is that it gives me no satisfaction to say all the “race realist” things to DA, being that he really is a decent guy (assuming that his online personality is close to his real-life identity.)
If he were some corn-rowed drooping-pants black asshole or a Malcolm-X-glasses-wearing black nationalist, I’d not give a damn, but the fact that he comes across as a smart, quirky, friendly guy with good morals, it kinda bugs me to get into all these uncomfortable topics with him.
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“What we need to do is teach the people on the left hand side of the curve real world skills (in short, vocational training). That portion of the population will not be “useless” if they are properly trained to be mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. ”
Mechanics, Plumbers, Electricians you know pretty much people who can do stuff no one else can do. These are the people that can leave where I work and be rehired whenever they want. The office people along with managers have a little harder time with that as there usefullness is not quite as high. The lie is that going to college gaurrentees success. Learning a trade well, guarrantees success. You have actual skills that are actually needed to produce actual money from people who definetly actually need a job to get done.
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Finns and Swedes are not related ethnically.
One thing I’ve always heard is that Hungarian is not related to any known language, living or dead, but has some tenuous connection with Finnish. And both, I read sopewhere, have uncany similarity to HanGul (Korean).
Markku or Jaakelli, at least as far as Finnish goes, is this something you’ve come across ?
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dougjnn
Yes you are right, as i pushed the submit comment button i regretted it.
But here is link of what i wanted to mention.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
and
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
that was not recently indeed.
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PA
I agree with one caveat. Most white girls who do go black more than say once, whether they become high volume sluts or not (and most who do already are they’ve just maybe managed to hide it in among a new circle or some such), nonetheless eventually marry a white guy. For income. Cause black guys with big income who are in fact the alpha kind of black guy are scarce, and all the black girls want them and the few white girls who want to marry black do too. And for marriage security. Cause that high income alpha black guy ain’t gonna stay in the marriage and if he does he’ll sure as hell stray, big time. And white girls gone black know it. So she’ll marry white.
I’m saying that white guy who marries what white girl has made a HUGE mistake. PC has blinded him and he’s an absolute fool. The chances of her remaining faithful in marriage, or for than matter remaining in love with her husband (if she ever really was) approach zero.
Oh and admitting she’s gone black once means in all likelihood it’s been a LOT more than that, and she’s in all likelihood a big time slut generally.
So any girl who attacks white guys who have a problem with white girls dating black guys, or is in any way emotional about it — big time tell.
Nuff said.
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The lie is that going to college gaurrentees success.
The advice I’ll impress upon my boy: get a degree in something technical (absent scholarships, first 2 years at a community college); learn a trade (high skilled like plumbing or electrician, or lower-skill one like carpet/tile installation); and learn to write well.
Covers just about any contingency.
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More fun stories form around the world:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1161693/South-African-men-raping-women-cure-lesbians.html
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David Alexander
I think you are overly pessimistic.
You worry too much about the “smart fraction.” The majority of useful occupations do not need 120+ IQs. This is a good thing because the majority of the entire population does not have such IQs.
While the “smart fraction” is important to a nation, being heavily represented there is less important to individual groups. A large portion of the American “smart fraction” is probably made up of Jews. Despite this, Whites (gentiles) still do well. We all benefit from the contributions of the “smart fraction” (even if we do not receive the same high earnings).
Living with an IQ of 85 is more challenging than living with an IQ of 100, but it does not condemn you to useless life.
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Electrician with certified journeyman or master. Money machine.
I am thinking hydroponics with manufacturing creating automated systems for food production/widjets. Sounds good if you want to change an economy. Great part is you can still do that after being a mechanic/pharmacist/excel guru/report generating office management drone. I think.
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PA. Hungarian and Finnish are related languages (the family is called Uralic or Finno-Ugric) but the separation is as far back in time as the separation between English and Hindi so it’s only academically meaningful. There used to be lots of speculation that Korean and Japanese might be part of the same group since they share a few grammatical features but that idea died when people mapped more non-Indo-European languages and realized that those features are actually very common. It got more press than it should’ve since it suited Finns who were hoping to find friends against Russia and were of course eager to woo the Turks, the Japanese and the Tatars.
Hungarians are an oddity among Uralic peoples, linguistically only close to a few tiny Siberian groups and by ethnic ancestry almost entirely assimilated Slavs and Turkics. Lots of Uralic peoples apparently picked up Turkic warrior nomad ways, but typically they were assimilated by the Turkics, not the other way around. Finns have lots of closer ethnic relatives sprinkled all over Russia, although even most of those are today almost assimilated. Finnic groups go all the way to bordering Siberia and Kazakhstan, more distant cousins go further
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Anonymous–
The concept of “smart fraction” in IQ comes from the estimable, if a bit difficult for a lot of people, La Griffe du Lion. He uses above 108 as the smart fraction cutoff.
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm
Because self identifying Jews are only about 3% of the population (and the large majority of Americans who are 50% Jewish will identify as Jewish), it’s only at very high IQ levels that Jews make up more than half. As well Askenazi (which is what we have in the US almost entirely) Jewish IQ is probably about 110 rather than the 115 which is sometimes used, but really the high end of a range of scatter test score results that are out there. (As well there are subgroups among American whites that have a much higher median IQ than US whites as a whole do, e.g. Presbyterians come in at 108 and Episcopalians above Jews at 113.)
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/12/religion_iq.php
Note that this is these groups IN THE US. Muslims around the world certainly don’t have an average IQ of 105. Almost all Muslims in the US are recent immigrants and usually go in via college admissions or otherwise with high skills. The world muslim average is probably around 90, or a bit below that.
Jews might conceivably make up half those with IQs of 160 or above (but maybe not, consider all those Episcopalians, though they don’t stick together nearly so well these days). They almost certainly don’t for those at 145. Very few CEOs have IQ’s of 160 for example.
But yes Jews are very heavily represented in areas starting around 140 and above. That’s also where great majority at our most elite colleges are, and above, if they didn’t get AA or an athletic admit.
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PA (quoting an unidentified commenter from another blog):
Now just replace this list with the unquestioning worship of “race realist” figures from the far fringes of academia, charlatan musings on genetics and evolutionary theory, and superficial, badly researched social science that gets a pass just because it’s politically incorrect — and you’ll get a perfectly accurate description of the type of people I’m criticizing.
To draw a parallel with one of your recent comments, these people are also seeking an antidote to the modern leftist delusions and falsifications of history in all the wrong places. It’s just that the subject matter they fascinates them is somewhat less kooky than the Stormfront crowd.
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What bothers me in this topic is that you present individuals in a culture as low IQ, whereas its not true at all.
Jews are highly represented in educated society, and the culture of Jews are aware of the importance of education, their IQ might get higher from learning, but any person would have similar IQ based on same background.
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dougjnn:
Well, duh. The key slogan of Marxism is “scientific socialism”, and so what? You can’t make an ideology neither realistic nor scientific just by naming it like that.
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Vladamir–
You won’t get this if you read Steve Sailer or John Derbyshire on these topics, or any of the contributors or virtually any of the commenters that aren’t derrided at GNXP, or anything by Greg Cochran or Steve Pinker and on and on.
In fact I defy you to come up with a single example of what I quoted from you from any of the people I listed. And there are skads more.
Now you might or will get some examples of what you’re talking about from SOME contributors to VDare.
And you’ll get a lot of it on AmRen not to mention Stormfront, which later is a straight up white supremacist site. Those are also not race realist sites. At all. They’re racist ones. Again, with VDare letting some of that in around the edges, and a lot of lose talk by some contributors.
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Vladamir —
Race realism is not an ideology, and neither is gender realism.
It’s talking honestly and objectively about what the science tells us about race and gender differences. Without ideological blinders or imperative from ANY political direction.
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Vladamir–
Also, that claim of Marxism was from the get go a lie. There was never anything scientific about Marxism. Marx and his followers and elaborators just claimed there was. Dishonestly.
Marx in his claimed most important (but never actually most influential works, that would be rather “The Communist Manifesto”) was simply so dense, so convoluted in his his intricate German derived expression, and so stupendiously and tediously long winded that very few people actually read through the whole thing, much less all his claimed “critically important” works, and if they did, actually thought they understood it all. So people pretended they did because the faithful would insist you couldn’t possibly legitimately critique any of Marxism until you had.
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I’m talking about Das Capital to begin with.
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dougjnn
I was actually the Anonymous above.
Thanks for the information.
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This view comes from relentless SWPL indoctrination that only the right hand side of the bell curve is “useful” and that the only jobs worth having involve abstract symbol manipulation, which is what the right hand side of the curve is good at.
Well, it generally helps that those jobs are high ranking positions that require years of university education, pay considerably well, and leave a legion of underlings who are at your command. In contrast, all of the jobs at the left side of the bell curve pay poorly, require little schooling, and are at the bottom. Thus, the solution to solving the problem of why black people are “oppressed” by whites is to place as many black people as possible into the right side positions. That way, they’ll be respected by whites, and we’ll no longer have racism to blame as to why black people are poorer and stuck at the bottom. It’s one of the secrets of the SWPL world, but it makes some sense given that most of the riots of the 1960s were partially fuelled by massive black under and unemployment. It’s also why we’re stuck with Affirmative Action since it’s the only real way to get black people into these high ranking positions in a way that barely approaches their proportions in society.
That portion of the population will not be “useless” if they are properly trained to be mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc
Yes, but what will the white people who do those jobs do when their now forced to compete against blacks? And what will black people do when they realize that while they’re still earning more, they’re unrepresented in positions of prestiege. Maybe I’m just overly class conscious, but that problem simply bothers me.
Of course, this presumes that somebody with average IQ of 85 is even capable of performing skilled labour. Even here in New York, construction unions have fought tooth and nail over having black labour, and the employees view black labour as lazy and useless.
reinvigorating the manufacturing sector
Manufacturing in the United States costs too much especially in light of the fact that you can get labour with high IQ to do it for less overseas.
Cause black guys with big income who are in fact the alpha kind of black guy are scarce, and all the black girls want them and the few white girls who want to marry black do too.
If you’re black, rich, and an alpha, why would you squander your gifts on black women?
We all benefit from the contributions of the “smart fraction” (even if we do not receive the same high earnings).
Yes, the problem is that because black people aren’t a part of smart fraction, we’re viewed as free riders or parasites on the system. I’m tired of my race being viewed as parasitic and useless and incapable of running anything.
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dougjnn:
Who, if I remember correctly from what I read about him, is a complete amateur in all matters scientific. Basically, he and his fans are creating an Internet echo chamber. Well, guess what — I can easily point you to similar cross referring groups of sites advocating just about any loony view imaginable.
I’m not saying that the views of the Gene Expression crowd are loony (although from what I’ve seen, they do occasionally border on that). It’s just that they’re taking a staunch and uncompromising stance in favor of one extreme view in an area that’s still a matter of huge uncertainty and controversy. Using their website as your principal source of information is hardly a way to get a realistic view of the state of knowledge in the area.
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You don’t need a huge amount of IQ to be a brilliant and highly successful, very very high earning salesman for example DA.
Yeah, but you need high IQ to become a competent lawyer, doctor, CEO, engineer, or scientist.
I’ve already agreed with you that there’s no excuse for using it as an excuse for bigotry
Of course, but can we trust people to do the right thing?
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“I’m tired of my race being viewed as parasitic and useless and incapable of running anything.”
which one I thought you were an oreo lol
Looks like your writing has subtantially changed how bout that.
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And Dave there are very few jobs at the top. Why a lot of bs. Like in my line I am only white boy understand what that means about aa and such. Discuss.
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David Alexander
It is those who contribute nothing are considered “parasites,” not those who work in lower paid jobs.
Millions of white people work in low-paid, unglamorous jobs. Half of the white population is of lower intelligent (IQ less than 100). They are not viewed as parasites. Similarly, a black person that works for a living will not be seen as a parasite.
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—Yes, the problem is that because black people aren’t a part of smart fraction, we’re viewed as free riders or parasites on the system. I’m tired of my race being viewed as parasitic and useless and incapable of running anything.–
Then blacks should stop acting like free riders, parasites, being useless and start to capably run shit. I won’t bore you with examples of why people view blacks that way either. It is pretty much all around, no matter where you look.
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dougjnn:
Well, where should I start?
Pinker is definitely not a “race realist”. He has written at length about the issues of IQ and heredity, and explicitly stated that he doesn’t believe that the presently observed racial IQ gaps have a genetic basis. (He does have some very un-PC views that he tries to present with a sugar-coating of PC platitudes, e.g. on gender — but “race realism” is not among them.)
John Derbyshire is one hell of a great writer and political, social, and cultural commentator, but outside of mathematics, he’s generally clueless about science. Basically, he just treats as gospel whatever he reads from Steve Sailer and Razib & Co. (His admiration for them sounds repulsively naive and sycophantic at times — and I say that as a regular reader and fan of his columns.)
Greg Cochran, along with the the other figures I mentioned above, is a fringe figure in science. By this I don’t mean that his opinions are necessarily wrong, just that he’s very alone in his views, which are considered quite extravagant by his peers. Also, even his basic qualifications for hard science are dubious — don’t forget that he is a professor of *anthropology*.
Basically, your problem is that you get your information about the relevant scientific fields from sources like Razib’s websites and end up with the impression that their idols (Cochran, Jensen, Rushton…) are the most renowned names in these fields. They’re not. It’s just that the stuff published by other people — both more renowned and more numerous — is nowhere as sexy and fun for the “race realist” crowd. But for Razib & Co., they exist only as sources of occasional bits and pieces of data that can be given the desired ideological spin, or, in case of opponents, as silly evil caricatures that are supposed to suggest that PC commissars are the only thing standing in the way of universal acknowledgment of the truth of “race realism”. (Yes, the writings of Gould, and especially Lewontin and Rose, are heavily biased because of their leftist views, but not much more than the “race realists” occupying the other extreme position — and some of their arguments are definitely not trivially dismissible.)
And Steve Sailer? He’s another great social commentator, and he has written some very interesting stuff about topics where most others are silenced by the PC codes. However, for whatever reason, he has adopted the “race realist” theories with blind uncritical faith, which greatly lowers the quality of his thinking and writing. Of course, he also lacks any qualifications in the fields of genetics, evolutionary theory, or any other hard science. (For example, I once read some of his speculations about IQ and mathematical abilities where he showed that he knows very little about math.)
The GNXP crowd, as I’ve already remarked, is ideologically-driven charlatanism in action.
Satisfied? As you can see, I am informed about all these people. Except that I don’t look at them as prophets and martyrs of the true faith, but merely as one side in a controversy where we still don’t know much with any certainty.
Yes, it is, and its main proponents, both inside and outside of academia, are not even trying too hard to hide that fact.
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in an area that’s still a matter of huge uncertainty and controversy.
I repeat: there is no evidence whatsoever for the proposition for the average neurological uniformity of mankind in the area of IQ. There is considerable though not 100% airtight evidence to the contrary. Given that the evidence seems to be so one sided, however, it is very unlikely that all groups have the same average IQ.
These conclusions are only controversial because they fly in the face of our current ideology.
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I think the problem is worrying how “people” view us in the first place.
I deal with people every day who think that just because I’m Black and female, I’m going to instantly drop my panties for them.
When you understand “the people” you come to realize that for those dumb enough to classify people by color and not by character, regardless of trends and averages, the only way through their thick skull is, like Gunslinger mentioned in another topic about some women, dog training.
They won’t respect you because of their training, so you have to scare them. If you’re unwilling to use fear and a manipulation tool, you’ll always be at the mercy of those who are. This doesn’t mean doing unethical things. It means respecting humanity for what it is, and the fact that people are stupid.
Have mercy on the independence impaired.
To do that though, you have to see yourself as an individual, and not a color or other category…just happening to fit within a designated category whose success will translate into success for you as a side effect.
So what’s good for Black people is good for us incidentally, and there’s no need to take sides except that at the moment, this is how you’re classified. Because of this, to get ahead, you may have to make people afraid of you or afraid of harming you because doing so would lead to greater, more obvious suffering for them than either helping you or leaving you alone.
It’s just how people are. We can wish it was different all we like, but look around…Humans like messing with each other and will harm each other if they have the opportunity, with no remorse whatsoever. They make up religions and ideologies that enable them to kill each other without feeling bad about it.
You can choose to opt out of this world, but if you choose to participate in the circle jerk of human existence, you need to be able to outlast your competition. To do that, you can’t pity them or yourself.
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“I repeat: there is no evidence whatsoever for the proposition for the average neurological uniformity of mankind in the area of IQ. There is considerable though not 100% airtight evidence to the contrary. Given that the evidence seems to be so one sided, however, it is very unlikely that all groups have the same average IQ.
These conclusions are only controversial because they fly in the face of our current ideology.”
C’mon we all know that skin color, eye color, hair color, etc… is genetic, but IQ isn’t. Don’t ask me how I know, it just isn’t!
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Gould, and especially Lewontin and Rose</i.
These guys made so many elementary errors in this area that no one respects their opinion about these things anymore. Lewontin even has his own fallacy named after him.
Moreover, as someone noted, there are no new Goulds and Lewontins coming up to defend their positions.
By this I don’t mean that [Cochran’s] opinions are necessarily wrong, just that he’s very alone in his views, which are considered quite extravagant by his peers. Also, even his basic qualifications for hard science are dubious — don’t forget that he is a professor of *anthropology*.
Figures like Steven Pinker, Edward Wilson and James Watson have endorsed his work on Jewish intelligence.
The American Academy of Microbiology changed how they defined infectious disease at Cochran’s behest.
Lynn<
W.D. Hamilton, the greatest Darwinian since at least R.A. Fisher and possibly since Darwin himself, wrote an extremely positive review of Lynn’s work as his last published work. It is evident from Hamilton’s published work that he cautiously endorsed race realist positions.
Rushton
Edward Wilson is a Rushton supporter.
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Gould, and especially Lewontin and Rose
These guys made so many elementary errors in this area that no one respects their opinion about these things anymore. Lewontin even has his own fallacy named after him.
Moreover, as someone noted, there are no new Goulds and Lewontins coming up to defend their positions.
By this I don’t mean that [Cochran’s] opinions are necessarily wrong, just that he’s very alone in his views, which are considered quite extravagant by his peers. Also, even his basic qualifications for hard science are dubious — don’t forget that he is a professor of *anthropology*.
Figures like Steven Pinker, Edward Wilson and James Watson have endorsed his work on Jewish intelligence.
The American Academy of Microbiology changed how they defined infectious disease at Cochran’s behest.
Lynn
W.D. Hamilton, the greatest Darwinian since at least R.A. Fisher and possibly since Darwin himself, wrote an extremely positive review of Lynn’s work as his last published work. It is evident from Hamilton’s published work that he cautiously endorsed race realist positions.
Rushton
Edward Wilson is a Rushton supporter.
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jackson: He posted himself about it. Too lazy to get the link but look for it and you’ll find the references to his grandfather back on the shtetl.
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Vlad, as always, in these areas, you’re a bit of a weasel.
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Razib, has a degree in biochemistry and biology, focing on genetics. He works as a computer programmer and web designer, coder, I believe. He’s also brilliant. He’s also an incredible autodidact. He’s greatly respected by a lot of researches in the field. He’s knows the advanced math of genetics and other biological research inside out. He probably spends more time on his autodidact stuff than earning his living. There have always been guys like that and they have often made great contributions. But what he seeks to do is not to contribute research himself, but instead review the literature and keep up on all the cutting edge stuff that’s informative about human biological and cultural evolution, especially fairly recent evolution, i.e. certainly the last 100k years, but especially the last 10k years.
It’s leftists who seek to discredit him because he’s threatening to PC or some aspects of PC that dismiss him as an amateur. People like Greg Cochran certainly don’t. Nor does John Hawks, who’s a leading physcial anthropologist and expert on Neanderthals. Nor does Steve Pinker, whom he’s interviewed. And on and on. Further, the co founder of the site, Godless Capitalist, is a cutting edge genetics researcher.
I can’t believe you’ve read the site much if you’d dismiss it as “a bunch of Amateurs”. Darwin was an amateur too during most of his career you know, in that he wasn’t paid for his work, until Origin of Species became a runaway smash hit, and he got a lot of money from book sales. As I’ve said though, I’m not saying Razib is or wants to be a researcher though.
He knows enough to be one in several fields though if he wanted to be. Way easily enough.
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Vladamir —
That’s called keeping your job. Literally. Let me be clear. He’s lying about what he thinks.
How can I say that?
He DOES think individual differences on things like IQ have a substantial hereditary basis, in all likelihood, based on the evidence. It’s essentially impossible that individual ones do but racial one’s don’t, if you know anything about how genetics and evolution work, and how sub species, aka races, develop into same.
I used to say the same thing. Still do under my real name to most people. I was partly lying way back then and fully lying now – under my real name. for self preservation. To keep MY job. And certain friends.
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Greg Cochran started out as a physicist, which is as hard a science as it gets. He got tired of that, and probably a bit old to do cutting edge work in that (thirty five tends to be over the hill there), and so switched to evolution and genetics work under one rubric or another, which is developing much more quickly now anyway.
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Vladamir–
Jensen, probably is the most renowened name in psychometrics. He also isn’t much mentioned by razib — because his work is dated, though still mostly accurate. There’s just newer stuff.
Rushton is occasionally mentioned, but never as an idol. Rushton, while doing good science, does sometimes seem pretty old school, with a bit of a bad whiff. Maybe that’s unfair, but that’s rather how Razib and co handle him. Never as an idol but always to be checked. well everyone is to be cross verified.
All your info is obviously second hand. You’re parroting what sites have told you about these people, not what you’ve seen by reading them. It’s clear as day.
You’re seeming more and more like a leftist PC mouthpiece on these issues, or parroting them, rather than someone trying to fairly evaluate.
The word troll is coming to mind.
Further, what I originally did was quote a bunch of characterizations you made of race realists in general, and then ask you to come up quotes from what they themselves have said that illustrate your characterizations.
Instead you’ve come back with character assassinations, or credentials assassinations of them, or general statements of what they supposedly say, without any quotes. Not one.
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Kthulah
I agree. Although I’d substitute for “character” “individual qualities”. and I’m not sure what you mean by the people, but I’m assuming that’s not crucial.
It’s the leftists and to a less extent the PC go alongs who wish to and have constructed whole social policies on the basis of evaluating where groups stand statistically and where they supposedly should. It’s the PC who have back computed that any variance between the statistical is and their ideological should must be due to inimical white prejudice even when they can’t remotely prove that.
I want to treat everyone as an individual. I just want to defeat PC on these false statistical arguments which have lead to a lot of stupid policies. Like “no child left behind”, and many others.
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jaakkeli:
That is true, but my key point is that we still don’t know enough to postulate any concrete theories about what these behavioral traits actually are and what the magnitude of their differences might be. “Race realists” view the above trivial observation as a licence to engage in wild flights of fancy in attempts to answer that question.
You yourself immediately provide a concrete example:
And the Middle East has a much older continuous tradition of organized civilization than China; it’s oldest cities and states and its literate cultures are thousands of years older than Chinese. So why aren’t these people even more “innately civilized” than Chinese? And what about other Asians whose civilizations are even more recent, but who are even more law-abiding (e.g. Japanese)?
Now, of course, I see at least ten different ways how you could reasonably attack this counterargument. But then I can also write my own rebuttal, and so ad infinitum. Ultimately, you might be right or wrong, but there’s no way we can ever form a reliable conclusion about this question given our present knowledge. And yet “race realists” consider speculative stories such as yours as decisive arguments that can be doubted only by the malicious PC-brigade, and whose implications should be used as basis for political ideologies with strong implications.
I think Egill Skallagrimsson or Eric Bloodaxe would have begged to differ. Or do you think that Germanic Scandinavians have evolved in a more civilized direction only in the last few centuries?
I wouldn’t say so. Just like the PC crowd, “race realists” are pretty damn smug with their confidence in the absolute truth of their present theories.
Also, it’s not only about how large the findings will be. It’s also about whether the metrics used by the hereditarians make any sense. How exactly human genes interact with the environment and culture in building the human personality is still an almost complete mystery. It may well turn out that what actually gets encoded in the genes is so remote from the usual metrics used by “race realists” that their theories end up ridiculous on their face.
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“When you understand “the people” you come to realize that for those dumb enough to classify people by color and not by character, regardless of trends and averages, the only way through their thick skull is, like Gunslinger mentioned in another topic about some women, dog training.”
I didn’t say that.
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it kinda bugs me to get into all these uncomfortable topics with him
I’ll admit, it’s hard to discuss these topics since they cut deep into my psyche in way that fooling around on so-called gender realism doesn’t. It’s pretty easy to BS around, say a few silly things for attention, and go off to sleep at night, but it’s hard to reconcile race realism with one’s beliefs. I mean, even I after a while start wondering if the mistakes or other actions of people are caused by low IQ. Then you start walking around trying to guess somebody’s IQ, and then you get into the slippery slope of trying to do it to friends and family members, and then you start wondering about said numbers of the kids, and whether based on said number, should I save up for bail or college. Then eventually you start wondering about the number for yourself, and whether it explains past and current events, and why your life is the way it is.
It’s hard to sleep at night when you start thinking that way…
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David Alexander
David that isn’t healthy. Seriously. I don’t mean thinking about the topic isn’t, or the truth or possible truth isn’t. I mean how you’re reacting to it isn’t.
Look I know I’m not the smartest guy out there. I know that I often interact with people, some of whom are probably smarter than me. I don’t lose sleep over it. At all.
I also know I’m not a member of the smartest group of people. Yeah I was raised Episcopalian, sort of, but my parents converted for social reasons and no big reason not to (sort of deists really, both of them), one from Presbyterianism and the other from methodism. As well, all in, genes and culture, Jews probably are the smartest group in America. I’m not Jewish. I don’t lose sleep over that either. (I do get pissed sometimes re: how Jews use charges of anti-Semitism to keep themselves immune to all group criticism, while they go after all kinds of different other groups, with abandon sometimes. E.g. the religious right. Muslims, or at least a large subgroup of them, and so on. But that’s a side of the PC cannon, that power of charging anti-Semitism.)
Seriously David, that way you’re thinking isn’t healthy. Talk it out with someone you trust.
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It’s kind of like menace to society good movie by the way at the end when the dude is answering the question his grandfather asks about whether he cares whether he lives or dies and he says I don’t know. Then at end he has a chance at relationship and maybe getting out of area but it is at the same time he is getting shot the fuck up so it doesn’t matter but he says yea he cares. The moment he cared is the moment he was getting shot the fuck up. That is real life. I didn’t say I don’t know to the answer I said I don’t care. I was actually leaning towards the wanting to die. Which in turn in this ironic world kept me safe. The only way to deal with black people in ghetto is to not care if you live or die for real and be ready to act in retaliation for a wrong.
Was talking with my black friend about it he said there was a black comedian who made jokes about the shit. White guy was in black guys house. Black guy had friends over and the white guy was like whats up niiiggggaasss. Then the black guys beat the white dude down. He wakes up and is like what the fuck niiiigggaaasss then he gets beat down again. He waked up same thing they just leave him alone. He said the black dudes probably just talked about me as the crazy white dude leave him alone. Both thought it was funny that that is what it takes to make it as a white boy in hood not caring if you die. Of course messed up part is he said he felt the same way reason he made it through is not caring whether he lived or died. Was in some hairy situations were really not giving a shit was what made the difference between somone pulling the trigger on him. Anyway he went through a transformation on the way home for R&R starting talking gangster had to bust on him bout that shit. I don’t get the impression he hates whites like I did with Osidian though. Everything that comes out his mouth is not about how blacks are better or he fucked this one white chick lol He actually plans on marrying a black woman amazing.
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Thursday–
The evidence that they don’t is virtually airtight. (Nothing in science is ever 100% airtight.) The evidence that a significant part of the reason is due to genetic differences is what is very strong, but not airtight. Everyone agrees that some of the reason at least is cultural/environmental. Though it turns out a lot of that is also normally heritable in a way, because a lot of that comes from parents, and children are normally raised by their parents, as opposed to adoptive ones.
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Thursday:
Well, if skepticism makes me a weasel, then so be it. But honestly, do you really think that one can’t be skeptical towards these hereditarian theories for reasons other than ideological delusions or dishonest political propaganda? And do you really believe that in this particular field of science, everything is so simple and straightforward that it makes sense for a layman to pick sides in controversies so self-assuredly? (Would you pick sides in controversies about, for example, interpretations of quantum mechanics or axiomatizations of set theory?)
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dougjnn:
In a way, you’re right. It seems like the commentariat on this blog has reached an ideological consensus in this regard, and arguing against “race realist” positions draws the animosity of nearly all the respectable regulars. So, I’ll agree with you that my posts are coming close to trolling — pointless contrarianism constitutes trolling regardless of who’s actually right — and I have no interest in joining the cast of regular trolls. Also, I’m faced with 3-4 people arguing against me at length, so there’s no way I can find the time to address all of them. And it’s not going to change anyone’s opinion in any case, no more than you could change any opinions on a leftist blog by propagandizing your “race realist” views there.
Still, you are very wrong to accuse me of being a PC leftist shill. You have no idea what my actual views are on various issues of politics, culture, history, etc.; if you knew, you’d know how ridiculous it is to associate me with any PC or leftist ideologies. However, as I’ve already remarked many times, in this regard, “race realists” have developed their own version of inverse PC. Just like the actual PC crowd operates under the axiom that anyone who challenges their ideology can only be motivated by sheer evil, you people can’t imagine that someone could possibly be skeptical towards your views for reasons other than PC indoctrination.
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Talk it out with someone you trust.
I’d rather discuss my fetishes with a nun than talk about race realism with normal people. They few references I’ve made to it have been dismissed as a point of conversation.
I also know I’m not a member of the smartest group of people.
You’re still white with high IQ. You lucked out. The rest of us didn’t. Nobody talks about how white people are broken, but people talk about how black people are broken.
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Vladamir–
I honestly don’t think that’s right. or I don’t think it’s right about any of the newer generation of leaders in the area. They’re all of an anti-dogmatic frame of mind. Even Derbyshire is, though he certainly has his settled views, in his mid sixties. Derbyshire though I wouldn’t call a leader in the area, just an honest and perceptive reporter back, with enough math/science smarts to have a good nose.
I have sometimes adopted a subtitle, on blogs that allow or promote that along with a screen name, of “anti-dogmatist”.
That’s where I’m coming from.
It sounds like where you are too. It doesn’t sound to me like you’ve looked into what the people I’ve talked about have to say first hand though, rather that you’ve read a bunch of leftist critiques of them, and maybe race realist followers attempts to defend them, and tried to steer a course through that. That kind of second hand thing doesn’t work well especially in contentious areas.
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Gunslinger, I thought that was you who said basically that in some cases women actually do need literal training like a dog does. I’m just saying that’s a people thing in general.
Humans have some instincts, but most of how they’ll turn out depends on individual potential and culture, and sometimes vulnerability to culture (which is at least partly genetic) overrides other things about a person that could allow them to rise above the herd.
The thing about not giving a fuck applies everywhere, not just the ghetto. People may do things in a more surface polite way elsewhere, but the basic principle is the same. If you operate like you demand respect, and don’t care what other people think about that, you’ll do better than if you capitulate to everyone’s whims.
There’s a balance, and that should only depend on one’s actual situation, not the illusions. It should be more about the survival of one’s psyche than the survival of their body. I like the Nietzsche saying about how when it becomes impossible for one to live well, one should die well.
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“Nobody talks about how white people are broken, but people talk about how black people are broken.”
Are you fucking kidding me?! All you hear about is how fucked up, downtrodden, hurt and “broken” negroes are. The standard complaints, mind you. Stop whining and hit the sack.
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David Alexander —
I think your objections on race issues have been taken seriously and addressed here, rather than for example mocked as you sometimes are on your dating hangup self revelations. But its true that you haven’t been dealt with as someone in deep pain on the issue. You also didn’t reveal you were until just a few posts ago. Nonetheless PA actually volunteer that he felt a bit queasy about hammering points home on the issue with you.
But anyway David, that isn’t the big point, and to hell, really, with defending how white guys here have dealt with you on this tread on race issues. The important thing is what I referenced about “not being healthy”. My entire intent there DA was to be empathetic and helpful. No doubt this is all tied up with your “oreo” thing too, not that a rabidly “anti-oreo” stance is necessary or automatically healthier either.
Seriously, talk to someone. Someone you trust. Forget someone “normal”, if you can’t trust someone “normal”, whatever you mean by that. I sense it’s not appropriate to probe that quasi publicly here (real world anonymously, sort of, pics but not googleable, but you spend a lot of time here), so I won’t. But talk to someone.
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“Dougjnn,
But anyway David, that isn’t the big point, and to hell, really, with defending how white guys here have dealt with you on this tread on race issues.”
It was a black dude who was trying to get him to quite posting or kill himself as far as I saw. When I decided to step in.
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Doug:
Vlad is not a lefty. He has a lot of very trad views. However, a lot of righties, particularly religious righties, though I don’t know Vlad’s religious views, are very hostile to evolutionary psychology and race realism.
However, I think it is correct that he doesn’t seem to have read any of the works of the race realist school. He isn’t much on specifics, just a lot of ad hominum and credentialist attacks on those scientists who are race realists.
He seems to get rather incensed at people throwing out observations or hypotheses, however reasonable. It is true that many of the theories presented under the garb of race realism are questionable. However, as someone else has noted, uniformity of temprement, like uniformity of intelligence, among humans across the globe is not very likely, so there doesn’t seem to be much harm in making observations and forming hypotheses that will provide food for real research. Furthermore, such observations and hypotheses, while not to be treated as gospel truth, are easily to be treated as much, much more likely than the approved alternatives. Therefore, living and make political decisions based on such observations and hypotheses is far more reasonable than making such decisions on the basis that we are all genetically the same in our minds. There is no reason whatsoever to treat the more soberly presented race realist theories and the approved alternative as anywhere near having the same credibiltiy.
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Kthula
Someone else.
“Think of training a cat. Don’t think of training a dog. You can’t smack a cat. And you’ll never break the spirit of a cat, and enslave her completely. You have to make the cat associate you with the whir of the electric can opener and the feeling of being petted.”
You remembered wrong but you will have to search to see who. Dang the word dog comes up a lot on this blog.
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Wow, great series of comments Vladimir. 100% agreed.
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No way. You may disagree with him, but I find nothing weaselly about the guy.
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I find nothing weaselly about the guy.
1. He makes all sorts of grand gestures about skepticism, but never brings up any specific objections to the research of Jensen et al.
2. He makes all sorts of snarky disses at the credentials and character of people like Razib or Greg Cochran.
Verdict: weasel.
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But honestly, do you really think that one can’t be skeptical towards these hereditarian theories for reasons other than ideological delusions or dishonest political propaganda?
There are lots of nice people who are skeptical towards these things because they don’t want to hurt the feelings of black folk or do them harm. That is noble in a way; I don’t want to needlessly hurt anybody’s feelings or do black people harm either, but that kind of reasoning isn’t exactly based on any evidence or even on any kind of reasoned argument.
BTW ideological delusions don’t have to be lefty or PC. Lots of more traditionalist people don’t like these kinds of conclusions either.
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Well, it generally helps that those jobs are high ranking positions that require years of university education, pay considerably well, and leave a legion of underlings who are at your command. In contrast, all of the jobs at the left side of the bell curve pay poorly, require little schooling, and are at the bottom.
What you are describing here is a system created by and for the people on the right hand side of the curve (specifically, the SWPL elite). There is nothing natural or inevitable about this system. It does not have to be true that the only high-paying jobs are on the right side of the curve – it is only that way now because the elite wants it that way. While the people on the left hand side of the curve are probably never going to be high-paid managers, they don’t have to be “poor and on the bottom” either. If there was a sensible system of vocational training and a strong manufacturing sector, the people on the left hand side of the curve could make a decent living despite not being the products of the SWPL credentialing machine (aka the university system).
Thus, the solution to solving the problem of why black people are “oppressed” by whites is to place as many black people as possible into the right side positions.
Blacks are still going to feel “oppressed” if they are put into schools and jobs for which they are not inherently qualified (not to mention this is a stupid way to run a country).
That way, they’ll be respected by whites,
Blacks who are on the left hand side of the curve but get arbitrarily placed into right-hand side jobs for political reasons will never be respected by whites.
It’s also why we’re stuck with Affirmative Action since it’s the only real way to get black people into these high ranking positions in a way that barely approaches their proportions in society.
That is certainly the political reason why we have AA but it only helps a relatively small number of blacks. Many more blacks (and many whites as well) would be better helped if this country had a vocational training system designed to help the people on the left hand side of the curve.
Yes, but what will the white people who do those jobs do when their now forced to compete against blacks?
I dunno, deal with it, just like they’re dealing with Latino immigrant competition right now?
And what will black people do when they realize that while they’re still earning more, they’re unrepresented in positions of prestige. Maybe I’m just overly class conscious, but that problem simply bothers me.
Look, we accept as a society that not everyone can be a gifted athlete or a gifted musician, despite the “prestige” associated with being good at sports or music. Why shouldn’t we accept that not everyone is good at symbol manipulation, despite the “prestige” associated with these jobs? It makes a lot more sense to me to train people to do a “low prestige” job that they can do and will find satisfying than to try and force them into a “high prestige” job that they can’t do and find boring and frustrating.
Manufacturing in the United States costs too much especially in light of the fact that you can get labour with high IQ to do it for less overseas.
Somehow Germany, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan manage to have robust manufacturing sectors, despite not being “low cost” countries. Manufacturing in this country is do-able, if the SWPL elite decides they want to do it.
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Kthulah
Could you expand on what you mean by “respect” and “operating like you demand respect”. The reason I ask is that men and women seem to attach different meanings to that word. Behavior that gains the respect of one might not the other.
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Page after page of discussion on the merits of particular races.
You guys are debating history. And our next ten years. After that, genetics won’t be caused by our parents. Kids won’t inherit all their genes from Mommy and Daddy.
You are talking race, as if we are not starting to CREATE race.
Jeesus masturbating Christ – you Ostriches are ossified academic minded numbskulls.
You are like horses blinded, running down a racetrack of your thoughts, with no desire or ability to see the big picture.
Your arguments are about times that are fading.
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Vlad, all your precision about how to conceptualize race is moot. Headspace. For naught and nothing that is or could be realized. Because the argument will be played out in real live babies. Not in the precision of conceptual categories of organisations of theories. The argument about race realism will be experimented with, through created races, and through the actions of the genes-that-create-people.
Or, we could just look at twin studies.
No matter. It’s no longer about theory. This is getting practical. Coming to a theater near you.
You argue against improper views. That’s fine, for mental space. But this arument will very soon be played out in physcial space.
As for me, I will print out a pterodactyl, (you can print in 3-D with live cells nowadays) , and wirelessly hookup to his brain, and swoop, big time.
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dougjnn:
Well, yes, relative to the prevailing PC dogma. But from what I see, faced with the hostility from outside, they have formed their own tightly-knit and rather closed-minded groups, whose most prominent examples are the academics associated with the Pioneer Fund, the GNXP crowd on the internet, and the circle of Vdare-affiliated authors and activists. I honestly perceive lots of echo-chamber-type behavior inside these groups, similar to what one finds among other small, tightly-knit intellectual groups espousing views distant from the ideological mainstream, like e.g. the followers of Ayn Rand.
One especially irritating type of such behavior is the knee-jerk hostile reaction against the arguments of their more extreme opponents. Yes, it’s obvious that Gould was an ideologically motivated leftist activist, and Lewontin and Rose have always flaunted their loony left credentials openly. However, this doesn’t mean that all of their arguments can be dismissed out of hand; logically and scientifically sound arguments can be made even with ulterior motives, especially critical counter-arguments. Yet, when debating with “race realists”, I feel like I would provoke hostility by saying that the sky is blue if Gould happens to have made that claim somewhere.
I don’t claim any sort of expertise or systematic familiarity with the area, but I have read several original books and articles by authors on both extremes (Gould/Lewontin vs. Jensen/Rushton), and also by more moderate people like Pinker, Dawkins, and Flynn. I don’t read GNXP regularly, but I’ve read lots of their articles linked from other places. It’s impossible not to be familiar with the ideological activism by nearly all of these figures, and it’s also impossible not to notice the influence of their ideology on their professional published work, especially books, so I don’t think anyone in the area can claim an innocent and dispassionate scientific approach.
See also my reply to Thursday immediately below.
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But its true that you haven’t been dealt with as someone in deep pain on the issue.
It’s not as if it causes deep-seated mental anguish, but it is highly disheartening and severely depressing as an issue. It’s one of those things that activates the guilt complex, and makes it hard to think or write about without feeling guilty in some form or another. Either you feel guilty for judging people whether they’re strangers or not, and then you feel guilty for writing things that make one question if this leads to the path to hell. By the end, you’re wondering if one is simply discussing the issue in an open and frank manner, or if one is simply aiding the “racists”.
But as you said, these are issues may only be solved in the real world with the real David Alexander.
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Thursday:
I probably shouldn’t get suckered into this, but just to disprove this point, below is a quickly drafted, sketchy, and very incomplete list of some concrete objections.
(1) The reality of g and the nature of IQ tests (i.e. what do they actually measure). There’s a huge body of criticism here that has, to my knowledge, never been addressed satisfactorily by the hereditarian IQ researchers. Some powerful and never fully rebutted arguments on these issues were voiced long ago by
The Great SatanGould; for further interesting criticism along these lines, search for the series of articles published on this topic a couple of years ago on Cosma Shalizi’s blog.Also, some basic assumptions about the nature of IQ and g are contrary to my own (serious and extensive) experiences in learning and teaching various fields of math, science, and engineering. They also seem inconsistent with cognitive insights from some other fields that I’m somewhat familiar with, such as linguistics.
Of course, these fundamental objections cannot disprove the possibility of innate intellectual differences among human populations, but IMO they do reveal the generally nonchalant attitude towards scientific rigor by the “race realist” IQ researchers.
(2) Many IQ researchers really don’t seem to realize that holding a pencil, shuffling through papers, and filling a test is a non-trivial piece of cultural knowledge. You may laugh at this observation, but chances are that this would have been a major problem for your own illiterate ancestors from a few generations back if someone had attempted to IQ-test them back then. So, our brave researchers go among illiterate populations, administer written IQ tests and conclude that they have retard-level IQs.
I remember once reading a book review on GNXP whose author remarked that, admittedly, there seems to be some, in his words, “theoretical deficit” with assigning the same IQ to adult European retards, normal 10 year old European kids, and typical adult inhabitants of several African countries. Well, no shit, Sherlock. Talk about an elephant in the room.
(3) The Flynn effect is another closely related elephant in the room. “Race realists” conclude that huge human populations are basket cases forever doomed to barbarism because of their low mean IQ — which turns out to be the same as the mean IQ of Western countries from 3-4 generations ago. I’d bet a monthly salary that my own grandparents, from whom I obviously got all of my DNA, would all have tested at least 2 standard deviations below me.
(4) Methodological problems with twin and adoption studies. The results of these studies look seductively convincing when you see the data tabulated neatly and suggestively. However, there are huge methodological issues with the way these data are gathered, which raise more questions than these neat final-product tables suggest. At the end of the day, you get one side waving the Minnesota study and the other side waving the Eyfert study, or some other, less famous ones, each claiming that the other side’s study is flawed and/or misinterpreted.
Also, Lewontin et al. have some interesting observations on how badly such studies are often done in practice in their book “Not in Our Genes”. Yes, a large part of that book is blatant loony left propaganda, at one point going as far as citing Chairman Mao, and a lot of it is seriously dated, but the chapter on heredity studies is well worth reading nevertheless.
(5) There’s a lot of throwing around of concrete numerical estimates of heritability, as well as more vague claims along the lines of, say, “50 percent of the white-black IQ gap is genetically caused”. But what do these numbers actually mean? It turns out that it’s a very complicated question, and the definition of heritability has its own surprising quirks and issues. See the above mentioned posts by Shalizi for some interesting discussion along these lines.
(6) Dishonesty in the presentation of evidence in survey papers. There’s a classic 2005 paper by Jensen and Rushton that purports to present an objective survey of the state of knowledge about race and IQ, and it unsurprisingly reaches decisively “race realist” conclusions. Also unsurprisingly, it drew fierce criticism by other researchers. Now of course, you can always claim that they are wrong, and Jensen & Rushton are correct — but remember that it was a general survey paper, not a statement of their own beliefs. It’s plainly dishonest to present supposedly decisive conclusions that are in fact fiercely disputed by most of your peers.
And so on. I wrote about all this stuff in other threads on this blog as well as on others. Even if all I ever wrote about this topic is completely false, you can’t possibly claim that I’ve never brought up any specific objections.
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Absinthe says, “Could you expand on what you mean by “respect” and “operating like you demand respect”. The reason I ask is that men and women seem to attach different meanings to that word. Behavior that gains the respect of one might not the other.”
It’s not just men and women. People of different cultures attach different meanings to the word. What might be normal behavior one place would be very disrespectful in another.
So to me, it means that they give me whatever it is that I’m due, in the context of the culture I’m in. In some cultures a woman doesn’t interrupt or even really listen closely to a conversation between two men. It isn’t meant to disrespect women. This is just customary.
If it’s customary however, for a guy to hit a woman for interrupting, without hearing what she might have to say (like your hair is on fire…), that’s where I’d draw a personal line. Getting smacked around for no good reason, how ever customary it may be, is not in my program.
So even though picking on the Black one might be customary, if Black people don’t put up with it, it’ll stop happening until every Black person is dead or achieves a level of power that there is a strong enough deterrent to prevent it.
As it is, Black people are a minority in the U.S. and nationally top 10th percentile intelligent Black people may be a rarity, but last I heard, IQ doesn’t determine a person’s whole value as a human being. Whatever the average person with my complexion looks like or does, I demand that people deal with me as me, or not deal with me at all…and if they choose to mess with me, they should be aware that I am very comfortable with nature. People with certain advantages usually are.
…and this is why, aside of the sometimes fatal results, talk about “race realism” sounds to me like “the history of the great fashion houses”…people arguing over whether or not Versace or Gucci is more stylish, when the important thing is which Gore-tex gear is best for sub zero weather.
In the end, we’re all on the same planet, all of the same species, and when shit hits the fan, the best survivors always win. Apparently, intelligence isn’t the only factor in that, or humans would be the only land animals left. If we keep fucking ourselves instead of each other, we won’t be left here either.
The world’s greatest minds invented nuclear weapons, internal combustion engines that ran on fossil fuels, and glow bracelets.
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Differences in IQ are probably a result of environment; I’ve heard that studies have correlated IQ with a very insignificant genetic component but more with the environment you grow up in i.e. how uneducated are your parents, how is education important to them and so on? It’s not a particularly important genetic thing; differences between the “races” can probably be attributed to subcultural differences and socioeconomics.
Even more important than that point is that IQ is not the be all and end all. To acheive anything, you need a team; you need the guy with the technical knowledge and you need the guy who’ll get stuff done, you need the guy who’ll attend to details and so on. Measures of success aren’t IQ-based; they’re based on risk-taking, reliability, determination, hard work, common sense, ambition, attitude to knowledge, charisma and another million attributes that aren’t really measured by IQ. A lot of them are a form of intelligence that isn’t measured by the standard (practically valueless?) IQ test. Black people have proved themselves again and again as immensely successful and so what if they have different fields of intelligence than the very limited IQ test? IQ’s basically just a salve to the wounded soul of an immensely intelligent person with no interpersonal skills and a measure of how well people might be doing in academia (not real life).
I’m in a competitive field. I could be losing sleep over the domination of white males in it. I don’t; I’ve tried it and I’ve proved to myself that if I just work more efficiently than Mr.Photographic Memory with three years headstart in his previous biomedical degree, I can still beat his ass. (AND have time left over to “waste” on this forum)
I’ve been exposed to a lot of ethnicities. What I find with unsuccessful people is that their IQ’s fine and dandy; it’s just that they seem to put a hell of a lot less effort in to their work and more into their personal dramas. There is no real, practical, observable difference in IQ between races. Socioeconomic class? Yes. Poor < Rich. IQ’s not a reliable measure of someone’s intellectual potential.
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http://www.ottawacitizen.com/News/Column+student+paper+spurs+outrage/1387833/story.html
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I’m starting to think the biggest racists against black people are the blacks themselves. Stop all your self-hating and the inferiority complex, for God’s sake.
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nah, even blacks want to leave black “neighbahoods”
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Ay, the Flynn effect is definitely an interesting thing. My great-grandmother is still alive, kicking, and fully lucid, etc.
But the woman only had about six years of formal education.
75 years ago, it just wasn’t remotely useful for a girl in rural OK to spend her teen years hunched over a textbook, and the kinds of work and recreational environment she lived in didn’t value the kinds of abstract verbal skills that are I’ve learned to find so rewarding, either.
Would be interesting to see how she stacks up against me in a formal IQ test, but even if she came in thirty points behind me, you couldn’t convince me that she’s a moron.
(You also couldn’t convince me that she belongs in a college classroom, though… and indeed some of our lefty friends feel that nobody could possibly be happy without being shunted through the educational system that tends to reward verbally-gifted lefties so generously.
Which is obviously ridiculous. There is more to life than “putting the right symbols together.”)
As for GNXP, I don’t get the impression that Razib Khan has the kind of watertight ideological Theory of Everything that some of his fans seem to have.
Maybe he did in his early 20s, but lots of young libertarians do– it’s probably a very satisfying substitute for the radical-ish leftism of some of their peers.
Virtually everyone outgrows whatever flavor of smug omniscience they had has young adults, though.
And DA, virtually no normal white people have a problem with “oreo” blacks. (No, they don’t like the underclass “nigger” variety, but they detest the trailer-trash Stormfront crowd even more.)
You can easily find yourself on the receiving end of so many dinner-party invitations that you’ll never have a free moment to yourself.
My husband has been trying to get one of his black co-workers to come out and have dinner with us, but he keeps getting turned down.
You have to get onto this guy’s social calendar like six months in advance. And this is Redneck Central America we’re talking about.
Heh.
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Thursday–
SubSaharan Africans don’t score at the bottom on IQ tests (which in these areas are almost always non language based). Australian Aborigines, Koisans (aka Bushmen) and some pigmy groups do. Though in the later two cases the number of tests done and # of subjects are too small to be very reliable. It’s pretty reliable with aborigines though, although very taboo to talk about in Australia and elsewhere these days.
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Bhetti
There is a mountain of research evidence to the contrary, and virtually none supporting your side. IQ tests showing a difference of 15 points +/- two points between US whites and blacks have been replicated litterally thousands of times. People have tried to devise tests that arguably measure IQ that don’t and haven’t been able to, unless they’re laughably about ghetto slang or other recondite stuff. And yes the tests have long since been cleansed of especially “white” stuff two, e.g. a yachting term was once one question — but those were never much.
As a matter of fact it’s been called the most rock solid piece of social psychology there is, it’s so replicable.
Only a small minority of psychometric experts, who are the one’s who devise tests to measure these things, come anywhere close to agreeing with your statement. Though you can find plenty of leftists scientists in other fields who do, since that’s the leftist orthodoxy, and a vast silent majority that stay shut on it.
What there’s legitimate controversy about still is whether any of the difference is genetic, as opposed to cultural and /or environmental. The great weight of the evidence however strong suggests that a lot of the difference is heritable, i.e. genetic, and probably somewhere between 40 and 80% genetic under US conditions. Nobody thinks it’s entirely genetic. Also there is an argument that the genetic differences are essentially what have created what’s important to IQ about the cultural and environmental one.
Another thing is that there have been intense efforts over the last 40 years especially and especially in the US, to find some set of programs or methods that could close this gap by raising US black IQs — and basically, it’s been a failure. Some say that Head Start did or does, but it only does for a few years after the intense and one sided special efforts are made, and then the gains fade away.
The No Child Left Behind act jointly sponsored by Bush and Edward Kennedy has basically been a grand exercise in self delusion and, well, fraud on the part of states and school districts wishing to avoid draconian consequences. Basically tests are dumbed down enough so that everyone gets an A, voila! no gap, even for near retards. That’s exaggerated but it give you an idea of the way in which it’s somewhere between self delusion and fraud.
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Roissy: “We are importing tens of millions of the peasant class from culturally and genetically antagonistic countries who do not possess a natural instinct towards American-style individualism and distrust of government. Our historical “anti-power” ethos is rapidly being replaced in a great demographic tsunami by a “daddy government” ethos. Way to go, guys!”
Read Kunstler’s latest post on Black rule in South Africa as a preview of what the hellhole multicult America will look like in the future, security guards and high-fences for all the civilized folks: http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2009/03/side-trip.html
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Bhetti–
Oh, and to try to get around the incontrovertibility of what I said in my immediately preceding post esp. in it’s first paragraph, leftist academicians lead I think initially by cultural anthropologists (in the US at least ground zero for radical cultural relativism and cultural leftism generally) floated the idea and then began insisting that “there is no such thing as race”.
It was absurd from the get go, both culturally and biologically. But it caught on for awhile among the academic left, who saw which way things were headed re: their doctrine of racial sameness (biologically i.e. genetically) in everything important (except as socially constructed otherwise).
My point is, that’s what caused that wacko idea to be born.
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Vladamir–
That’s because your knowledge in this area is limited. Very. It has been. Decisively.
***
These sorts of considerations, though you greatly overstate them, together with e.g. nutritional ones, are part of why most people who could be called race realists and who are close to the science think that the IQ results for subSaharan Africa, where the average IQ is 70 or even a little less, are heavily depressed by environmental factors. I.e. most look to the black vs. white US gap as more indicative of the true racial gap when environmental conditions are roughly similar in the critical essentials. However American blacks are about 20% white, genetically. You can mathematically compute that if they were 100% black in the US the black white gap might be about 19 IQ points rather than 15. But 81 or 82 is probably much more indicative of the black racial IQ relative to whites than the African average of 70.
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dougjnn:
Well, that’s what you think. Maybe there are indeed some rebuttals of these critiques that I’m not familiar with, but maybe there are also critiques that you are not familiar with, or maybe you’ve been convinced by arguments from the “race realist” side that have failed to convince me. In any case, you’re being much too self-assured in your belief that anyone who has made different conclusions about these issues must be either dishonest or ignorant.
“Greatly overstate”? I’ve read writings by leading figures on the “race realist” side that sub-Saharan Africa is a lost cause because their innate low IQ will doom them to barbarism forever. For example, I’ve read extremely harsh opinions along these lines by the “Godless Capitalist” character whom you have praised above. Rushton and the rest of the Pioneer Fund crowd have also voiced such opinions more or less explicitly, even though they tend to use more reserved and polite language.
Now, I definitely have zero patience for the PC lies and delusions about the present state of Africa and its causes. It is absolutely undeniable that African peoples are presently in a state of horrible barbarism, that the PC theories that lay the blame on colonialism and supposed neo-colonialism are complete rubbish, and that foreign aid and other Western feel-good policies are only making matters worse. However, their present barbarism is by itself no evidence for genetic inferiority.
As an analogy, imagine if the Greeks and Romans had been applying the approach of today’s “race realists” 2,000 years ago, when the ancestors of modern Northern and Western Europeans were still illiterate savages with zero contributions to civilization — even after the neighboring Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilizations had been flourishing for thousands of years. I’m sure they would have considered the innate intellectual and civilizational inferiority of Germanic peoples as a decisively proven fact.
See, this is what I’m talking about. In a single paragraph, you manage to first introduce an absurd premise — that for whites and blacks in the U.S., “environmental conditions are roughly similar in the critical essentials”. Then you proceed to self-confidently assert that some numbers you’re throwing around can be “mathematically computed”. I guess I’m supposed be wooed by this assertion — however, I’ve done math in my life that you’d probably be scared to even look at, and I’d bet your “mathematical computation” used to prove this would have more holes than Swiss cheese.
I admit that the best arguments I’ve seen from the “race realist” side are much better than this, but if this is the level at which you operate when making conclusions about this topic, it’s absurd to accuse me of ignorance.
Yeah, these discussions are indeed easier to get into than to get out of…
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Vladamir–
The fact is Africa is the world’s basket case.
The fact is equally poor right after WWII Korea is on the brink of becoming first world. Most of the rest of the Asian tigers are right behind. China is coming on strong.
Africa isn’t. It has a problem. A big one. What is it?
The fact is it was one of the last and least years colonized by Europeans places on earth (probably to their detriment, in contradiction to the omnipresent neo-Marxists).
The fact is African populations everywhere in the world are at the bottom intelligence wise, and at the top criminality and violence wise. Everywhere.
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dougjnn:
No argument there — as I said, I am fully aware of the extent of the African disaster, and I don’t buy any of the standard PC arguments about the supposed reasons for this state of affairs. However, the simplistic explanations that rely on the hypothesis of innately low IQ of Africans seem grossly unsatisfactory to me. If nothing else, such explanations are inconsistent with the basic facts about Western history and the Flynn effect. If Africa is a hellhole because of low IQ, how come that Western populations had equally low IQ levels a few generations ago, and they were nevertheless civilized and technologically advanced?
In my opinion, “race realism” is akin to leftist multiculturalism in that both vastly downplay the importance of culture for human development. Multiculturalists would have us believe that everyone in the world is culturally the same as us, except for slightly different tastes in clothing and cuisine and that it’s a grave sin to say anything negative about any culture (with the exception of our culture, of course, which is the only evil one and responsible for all that’s bad in the world). “Race realists”, on the other hand, reduce everything to innate biological differences, and fail to see that depending on culture, the same population can be in a state of high civilization or lowest primitivism and savagery.
Here’s what I wrote in a comment on the 2blowhards blog a few months ago, expanding on the analogy I mentioned in one of the above comments:
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dougjnn – I’m not going to dispute the findings themselves or talk about methods of selection or what-have-you. I’m just going to say IQ is irrelevant. Pretty sure average Arab IQ was something in the region of the 80s*, and it’s safe to say mine’s in the region of the 100s somewhere. This figure is comparable to black IQ, yet I go to medical school with more Arabs than blacks in a heavily black populated area (note more black females in medical scool than males: that seems to be more attitude-to-their-work influence than consequences of racial IQ).
My parents are both clever people, but I know I think and rememeber differently from the way they do. Before you hit me with genetic heritability: As well as that, my brother had to repeat his years twice due to his academic failings. If parental pressures had magically disappeared, he probably would’ve given up on the idea of academia, education and university eons ago which would’ve also had the effect of sacrificing points on an IQ test. That also doesn’t make him a stupid bloke; he’s got much more common sense and practical ability than I do. I’d bet on him more than myself to start up a successful business and make it happen.
I’m just saying these IQ figures are completely irrelevant in everyday life and practical applications. That’s what I meant to say by ‘practical, observable’, as in what it means to real people and the consequences rather than scientific method (although from some comments and perspectives: I can see there’s disagreement with this subjective observation). Poor people and gangsta wannabes seem to have the same kind of practical intelligence, regardless of their skin colour. Racial IQ isn’t an excuse and isn’t a good basis for sweeping generalisations about intelligence, seeing as how many different kinds of intelligence there actually are. The effect of social pressures and personal attitudes cannot and should not be underestimated. ‘My race/parents have a low IQ’ means nothing to your personal IQ; it is inevitably mostly what you make it.
*http://knol.google.com/k/alexander-emilfaro/iq-by-country/kpxsjkpzgwux/5#Reference_Table
P.S. Thinking about this and the reasons why developmental delay (which is the only place where IQ tests are used in medicine, to check for learning disabilities), I think I also remember a higher incidence of twins/prematures with African populations*. Deprivation of oxygen at birth could lead to some compromise in mental ability; i.e. genetics could be an influence, but not in the way you think (it’s the uterus/pelvis peoples!). C-sections can lower this very effectively (but not in the case of twinning), so I wonder…
Twins like to deprive each other of placental blood supply in utero.
*http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121367151/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
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The fact is African populations everywhere in the world are at the bottom intelligence wise, and at the top criminality and violence wise. Everywhere.
Reason #255 as to why it’s depressing to be black.
The fact is it was one of the last and least years colonized by Europeans places on earth
African colonialism was rather different than the experience in the Americas or Asia. North America like Australia and New Zealand essentially served as settler colonies which had the advantage of the native indigenous populations being relatively small, easily exploitable, and disappeared very quickly. In contrast, South Africa and Zimbabwe were stuck with large, not easily exploitable natives that weren’t going away. The rest of Africa was merely for mineral resource utilization and for selling products to locals.
Mind you, if you want middle-income black nations, the Caribbean fits that niche with the exception of Haiti, but I’d argue it’s primarily due to longer colonialism and better “training wheels” for self-rule, unified ethnic groups meaning no need for civil wars, somewhat better nutrition, and natural resources that have some value. Plus, membership in the Commonwealth and immigration to the US relieved some population pressures too.
BTW, the least colonized area of the World is the Middle East. While the Maghreb and Egypt were colonized for a decent amount of time, European control of places like Iraq or Lebanon were merely a 40 year interlude after World War II. I suspect that’s why we have the “terrorist” problem with Arabs and not with Africans…
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And also, both are very much self-esteem based ideologies. Multiculturalism and radical feminism and socialism were all self-esteem based ideologies all formed to selectively analyze all facts and history in such a way as to boost the self-esteem of everyone BUT the middle class and higher white man. After a long enough time of having their image beat up by the PC crowd, white men flocked to their own self-esteem based ideologies like men’s rights advocacies and race realism and began using much of the same methodologies, conspiratorial viewpoints and eternal victim mindset as the feminists and multiculturalists, except from a Politically Incorrect viewpoint now instead of a PC one. Admittedly, race realism does manage to make itself sound much more plausible and noble because at least it uses real science rather than just guilt to cover up its self-esteem goals. But in the end they all appeal to their respective groups for the same reasons, comparitive victimology (“my struggle is as valid if not moreso than your struggle”) and that “support group” vibe that people who perceive themselves to be victims love surrounding themselves with.
I’d respect race realism more if it was true race realism that could objectively deal with all racial facts, including those unflattering to high-IQ European whites and Jews. But I find when anyone says anything remotely unflattering to whites or Jews in these commentts or isn’t actively celebrating white people, race realists become as chronically offending and thin-skinned and reactionary and emotional as the worst multiculturalist who hates hearing anything unflattering to minorities.
Race realists on this board on average seem MUCH more thin-skinned than the blacks on this board. Look at all the people who recently reacted to Obsidian as some black supremacist hate-monger. Yet what Obsidian has said about white people is nowhere near as incendiary or hateful as the stuff that regularly gets hurled against blacks regularly in these comments. Us black posters on the board require MUCH more constant racist comments before flying off the handle like dougjnn and gunslinger have recently. The fact that race realists seem so incredibly thin-skinned is a major part of what verifies to me that their ideology is very much self-esteem oriented because it reminds me very much of an afrocentric board or feminists board’s mindset.
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“Bhetti
My parents are both clever people, but I know I think and rememeber differently from the way they do. Before you hit me with genetic heritability: As well as that, my brother had to repeat his years twice due to his academic failings. If parental pressures had magically disappeared, he probably would’ve given up on the idea of academia, education and university eons ago which would’ve also had the effect of sacrificing points on an IQ test. That also doesn’t make him a stupid bloke; he’s got much more common sense and practical ability than I do. I’d bet on him more than myself to start up a successful business and make it happen.”
Yea my sister had like perfect sat, scholarship, AP classes but she actually studdied I never did usually got b’s though. Hard work gets you a lot of things.
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David Alexander
North America became sparsely populated after the Spanish arrived in the South, and fishermen from all over Western Europe sailed down the New England cost and (unintentionally) introduced Eurasian diseases from which the AmerIndians had absolutely no defenses. The Pilgrims were helped by a lone Indian survivor for a time and taught how to plant maize, etc. The village he came from was completely deserted, the population been decimated and the few survivors having fled that cursed (they believed) place. In all likelihood it was Euro fishermen who had brought smallpox and or something else with them leading in short order to the vast population thinning.
Similarly along the Mississippi British trappers and then settlers found huge mounds from a dissappeared people. DeSoto had explored the area 100 years earlier. Disease had vastly reduced the AmeriIndian population by the time the Brits arrived, and destroyed the Cahokian civilization.
Africa in contrast had lots of diseases such as e.g. malaria which whites had no immunity to at all, or virtually none. The tropical and subtropical belts of Africa were particularly deadly to whites. That’s part of why they rarely did the slave capturing themselves but bought from black traders on the cost.
That’s also part of why South Africa was genuinely colonized and settled by whites beginning in 1650 or so with the Dutch, way before other parts of sub-Saharan Africa. It’s temperate and has much less disease which whites couldn’t handle until the 20th century.
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T.:
And also, both are very much self-esteem based ideologies.
No, no, no, no, no. As John Derbyshire has noted, the prominent race realists (Derbyshire himself, Sailer, Jensen, Murray, Lynn, Rushton, Greg Cochran, Henry Harpending, John Hawks, Edward Wilson, Vincent Sarich, Razib Khan, godless capitalist et al.) are distinguished by their _lack_ of racial conciousness. It’s not a self-esteem thing for them.
Stop equating race realism with the wackos you read in internet comments threads.
Vlad:
I will answer your specifics when I have time. Particularly egregious though was your reference to the chapter on twin studies in Not In Our Genes.
See here. Weak, extremely weak.
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T.:
BTW I think both Michael Blowhard and I have noted that white people tend much more than other races to be pretentious, full of themselves status whores. And higher percentage of white people seem to be out and out weirdos too. I am sure that there are lots of other unflattering tendencies among white populations. I have no objection to such observations.
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Derb’s comments that I referred to above can be found here.
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Vladamir —
Thursday linking of that Derbyshire article lead me easily back to a long, long post that Jason Malloy wrote on GNXP in response to James Watson’s firing. He titled it James Watson Tells the Inconvenient Truth: Faces the Consequences.
It’s something of a magnum opus. It summarizes the evidence for the existence of different levels of intelligence in different racial groups, and the strong evidence that some of that difference is genetic. Since you obviously have a considerable amount of interest in the topic and in “debunking” the HBD crowd, you owe it to yourself to go take a look. The title of the article I gave above is also a link.
As well he wrote a short follow up article titled ,a href=”http://www.gnxp.com/blog/archives/2007_11_01_gene-expression_archive.php”>Important New York Times Article . Go see that too, and the NY Times article he links there.
As well read the comments on this last one. Click on comments at the end of the short piece and you’ll discover they’re far more than zero. Godless Capitalist as GC has some interest things to say, as do others. You can of course do a find for GC. Or better, just read through the comments.
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Let’s see if I can get that second link to Important New York Times Article right this time.
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Yea don’t misinterpret race realists with people who grew up with black people either or people who work with them.
Started reading Stuff White People Like
Everyone notice how there is always a comment about “hey why don’t you start posting stuff about what black people like”
“I want to see more stuff about my culture” And this is on a blog titled stuff white people like. So you see how blacks try to hijack a blog make it into where everything has to include some black angle on shit. Interesting stuff.
Response “You go make a site about your culture”
Priceless stuff.
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All I know is that I demand reparations from the us government for being forced to live near black people and the emotional damage that has caused. Not a 100 years ago but during my lifetime. They should pay for me to move the fuck out of the country to be able to escape black people. Not going to happen so I have to be a good white person work and save my own money to accomplish my goals.
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On AA
I am not a race realist I lived with them. Blacks are a good catalyst for people to want to work really hard to not have to live near them. Again there are good points. Probably have post traumatic stress disorder from living near blacks but not from any war I have been in (2). But since I am white I will not get a check like almost 100 percent of the black people I have met over here for a disability. White people forced to live in a ghetto or where the ghetto was moved to them by the government should get reparations. Again though I am still soldiering on with my life. I am still working my ass off and will achieve my goals. I will not use aa as an excuse of why I can’t make it but I will still listen to the stories of people fucked over by it even though those people also had to soldier on. I am sure that the E6’s in the army who never make E7 because you have to send a picture in to get selected will all keep soldiering on with there lives but they will be changed when they look with their eyes and are like dam are all the first seargents really black but the majority of the army is white. They probably won’t use that as an excuse of why they failed in life they will probably keep living but it will still piss them off to be part of someone’s social engineering project. When white officers are passed over for black officers with less qualification and sue the government and win you have to ask a question. When white men cannot basically get into the fire department of a big city sure they will soldier on but they will be pissed off about it when the only fire department job they can get is volunteer. When there becomes a critical mass of these people. It will be bad for the same minorities it was intended to help. If it ever comes to that point.
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“Started reading Stuff White People Like
Everyone notice how there is always a comment about “hey why don’t you start posting stuff about what black people like”
“I want to see more stuff about my culture” And this is on a blog titled stuff white people like. So you see how blacks try to hijack a blog make it into where everything has to include some black angle on shit. Interesting stuff.
Response “You go make a site about your culture”
Priceless stuff.”
Ok it is starting to actually be amazing how many comments from black people on the site talking about the usual black people better at this black people better at that. I am really like wow. Why are black people drawn to a site that says stuff white people like?
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In comparison I have not been to a site that says what black people like or whatever with all black people discussing a topic and then I would feel some sort of need to prove whites better.
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Thursday:
I wrote that long comment merely to demonstrate that I do have concrete objections, and that I am familiar with the prominent personalities and sources in this debate; as I already wrote, it was not meant to be exhaustive or coherently argued (for that, I would need far more space and time than I can afford).
But have you actually read that chapter? Look, I would never even dream of supporting the general thesis of Lewontin, Rose, and Kamin expressed in this book. They make no secret of being out-and-out rabid commies and that the book is written in the interest of supporting their Marxist ideology. Hell, elsewhere in the book they recommend studying the works of Chairman Mao to cleanse one’s mind of bourgeois prejudice.
However, what I do find interesting and instructive about that particular chapter is that it describes various problems with real-world studies that you’d probably never even think about when reading the studies themselves, let alone second-hand summaries of their results. This is why it’s hard to criticize research competently if you’ve never done and published any yourself.
Looking at the neat tables and graphs, sophisticated statistics, and skillfully argued conclusions, it’s easy to forget that the authors usually don’t tell the whole story about how the data actually came into being — and they often have every incentive to make their quality look as good as they can without (hopefully!) outright lying, and to omit discussion of any dubious methodological considerations that they hope peer reviewers won’t notice (which they usually don’t). *That* is the useful lesson from the chapter in question.
Incidentally, Richard Dawkins wrote a scathing review of “Not in Our Genes” back in the day, but in the same article, he remarked that “the chapters, presumably by Kamin, on IQ testing and similar topics, do partially redeem this otherwise fatuous book.” I stumbled on that review only after I had read the book myself, but I couldn’t help but notice that my impression was the same. Some of their criticisms on these issues can’t be tossed aside just because the rest of the book is mostly rubbish.
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To me it’s like Obama and the Moveon.org and DailyKos commenters. The commenters are the lowest common denominators that let it all hang out. With the liberal politicians and the pundits, they have to be more diplomatic or couch their socialist tendencies in more nuanced language. But among the big guns in race realism, I do find a tendency to stop at any true self-criticism. Their criticism of whites tends to extend to SWPL type whites or “proles,” both of which are just as self-serving as their criticisms of non-Asian minorities.
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Rereading my last comment, I realize it might not be clear what I was trying to say. What I meant is, just like big-name politicians and pundits are smart enough to be more nuanced or can’t afford to let their full emotions be known the way anonymous commenters can, you can still often read between the lines to see a lot of the same sentiments. For example Obama’s ” spread the wealth.” He’d never call himself a socialist, but you can glean it from him language. Similarly, the prominent race realists may not spout off as badly as their commenters, but you can tell from who they jump into the comments section to debate and whose comments they let slide much of their true sentiments. And most of their “self-criticism” involves whites they don’t particularly identify with, such as SWPLs, who are smart with high IQs but are PC multiculturalists, or they aim at low-IQ “proles.” When you hit them with real actual criticisms that are not of proles or SWPLs but of white groups they personally identify with, they become very reactionary, emotional and thin-skinned, just like many pro-black radicals and Jezebel commenters. Like I said, to their credit they at least ATTEMPT logical thought rather than relying on pure emotion to form their arguments, but like Vladimir points out there are many holes in their supposedly airtight theories and methodologies.
I also have to give Michael Blowhard credit, I don’t know if he considers himself a race realist or not, but he is a white guy who is truly willing to self-criticize whites of his own class, background and social circle, as opposed to just the “other whites” like SWPLs and low-IQ “proles.”
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Yea reading more stuff white people like very enlightening on how blacks jumps on a blog to fuck it up. Ricky do you notice white people on any of your pro black radical blogs you are drawn to.
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Men may love risk taking, well alpha men do, but not about pregnancy with gotcha consequences.
Google up Impregnorium and read the forms and erotic stories.
Ooops pregnancies are common among younger chicks trying to rope a boyfriend into becoming a husband.
Even though I’m a low ranking male, even the lowly beta has cause to fear such a situation in a long-term relationship, especially if you’re beta using “provider game” to attract attractive, yet lower class and somewhat aspirational women. If you’re her ticket out of the trailer park, ghetto, or barrio or her little kid calls you daddy, you’re a target.
They don’t drag their husbands around shoe-shopping for Manolo Blahniks, but DO require them to be at school plays, dances, etc. and make dinner and share chores and pull their fare share of the household load
The funny part is that such a marriage sounds rather sensible and doesn’t reek of the notions of the patriarchy. The downside is that it requires doing stuff that you’d never do when you were single.
What’s notable about the women Roissy links to is that they are supremely uninterested in the messy compromises of marriage and family. They want it “their way” all the time, without the bother and hassle of being married and giving up total independence and freedom, and compromising on men.
Well, that’s the issue at hand. Everybody wants it their way all the time. Women want kids without having to deal with the mess of dealing with a beta male. Men want to bang lots of women without the need for pointless courtship and relationships. Once you’ve seen the world of the elite alphas where sex is free-flowing and easy with the best partners, you tend to want that world for yourself as well, and the old ways aren’t as attractive or alluring anymore.
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But among the big guns in race realism, I do find a tendency to stop at any true self-criticism. Their criticism of whites tends to extend to SWPL type whites or “proles,” both of which are just as self-serving as their criticisms of non-Asian minorities.
Specifics. Specifics. Who exactly are the “big guns” you are talking about?
Similarly, the prominent race realists may not spout off as badly as their commenters, but you can tell from who they jump into the comments section to debate and whose comments they let slide much of their true sentiments.
Who are you talking about? Steve Sailer lets all sorts of crazy people post comments on his blog, but doesn’t much respond to any of them. In any event, it would be absolutely crazy to conflate Steve’s “real views” with his sometimes deranged commenters. He doesn’t want to be censored, so he pretty much lets anyone say whatever they want to say on his blog. If you read his content, he’s actually pretty pro-black. He has suggest practical ways for blacks to improve themselves (go after more sales and PR jobs and fewer paper pushing AA sinecures) and says that America is underutilizing the masculine leadership qualities of black men. Razib Khan and Jason Malloy are equally hard on the “‘tards” on any side of a debate and in any event GNXP doesn’t tend to attract a lot of commenters with an axe to grind, mostly because Razib ruthlessly prunes any comments that are just people spouting off. And, in fact, Malloy is politically moderate to liberal. So is Edward Wilson. So is James Watson. Jensen and Murray are non-bloggers and stick mostly to technical debates the data on IQ. Lynn and Rushton’s work is less well respected, but they don’t blog either. Sarich doesn’t blog. Cochran makes the occasional appearance in blog comments sections to debate technical issues. Again, who specifically are you talking about?
Really, it kinda sounds like you are basing your whole impression race realism on Half Sigma’s blog, throwing in the unfounded assumption that Steve Sailer really believes what is in his comments section, rather than what he actually writes.
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Wrong
Fucking
Window!
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dougjnn:
Actually, I read Malloy’s GNXP article on Watson at the time of the controversy. It has been linked to by hundreds of online articles and blog posts and comments; it was virtually impossible not to stumble upon it. Why do you keep assuming that I’m so uninformed about this topic? (BTW, I read Derbyshire’s article too; I already wrote that I’m a regular reader of his.)
A lot of Malloy’s article deals with the mean IQ scores that have been measured in Africa as a purely empirical matter. Indeed, Watson’s statement, strictly speaking, didn’t even deal with anything except that. Malloy is rightly disgusted at several scientists who joined the lynching of Watson by providing caustic soundbites with false or misleading information. (It really had an air of those public denunciations of dissidents that Soviet scientists and other prominent personalities were forced to sign from time to time.) However, in my critiques of the “race realist” positions, I never questioned the empirical fact that significant inter-population IQ gaps presently exist.
Malloy does stumble on the unpleasant (for “race realists”, that is) fact that IQ scores equal to those of retards in Western countries are achieved by clearly non-retarded Africans. Malloy’s discussion of this issue is incoherent and illogical, which is understandable, since you can’t do any better without getting into uncomfortable discussions on methodological issues with IQ testing. (In the case of Africa, a lot of these issues boil down to my above observation that sitting down comfortably for an hour with papers and a pencil is a non-trivial piece of cultural knowledge, or even cultural conditioning, if you will.) The section “Intelligence Does Not Exist”, which should logically include a discussion of this issue, mostly attacks irrelevant and clearly false objections to intelligence testing, but not the key problematic methodological issues with it.
Similarly, in the following section “Race Does Not Exist”, Malloy attacks the more extreme claims about the topic from the title, mainly from leftist sources, from Guardian to our old pals Lewontin and Rose. Again, what he writes here mostly makes sense, but it’s all still far from what’s really sought: concrete evidence on a genetic basis for cognitive and behavioral differences between populations. (And sorry, but does he really expect to be taken seriously citing anonymous blog comment discussions side-by-side with scientific literature?)
Malloy discusses the really intersting arguments only in the ineptly titled last section “The Mind is a Blank Slate”. The adoption studies are indeed by far the strongest argument “race realists” have to offer, although Malloy’s presentation of that issue is disappointingly brief and oversimplified. (For a different view by someone far more knowledgeable about the relevant science, see this article by Cosma Shalizi. I’m not saying that Shalizi is necessarily correct in everyting — this stuff is above my head too, after all — but it should give you an idea of how vastly oversimplified Malloy’s statements are.)
Finally, Malloy deals with possibly the most devastating argument against “race realism” — the Flynn effect. He counters it with the claim that increases in IQ scores as noted by Flynn are “not a gain in real g factor intelligence”. Which returns us back to the issue of whether there is such a thing as the latter — which in turn depends on sophisticated arguments that are, frankly, far above the level of expertise of both me and you and Malloy. Also, see Part II of the above linked Shalizi’s article about this topic.
Overall, an interesting article, but as you can see, it doesn’t really present much in favor of the controversial “race realist” claims.
I haven’t seen that one, thanks for the link. I’ll take a look at it.
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David Alexander:
Wrong
Fucking
Woman!
^– instant alpha game!
(I kid?)
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Malloy does stumble on the unpleasant (for “race realists”, that is) fact that IQ scores equal to those of retards in Western countries are achieved by clearly non-retarded Africans.
Uh, the IQ test scores of clearly non-retarded adult Africans are equal to the IQ test scores of clearly non-retarded 11 year old whites. So, your point is?
All this really means is that IQ isn’t a very good measure of mental retardation. An IQ of 70 is at best a very rough rule of thumb used for practical purposes, which has been used that way because an IQ of 70 in whites almost never occurs unless something goes catastrophically wrong in development. The fault is in the standard for retardation not in the measurement of IQ.
(BTW I worked last year with a clearly non-retarded white student with a measured IQ of 75. I could easily hold a normal, fun conversation with this person and you would never guess at their extremely low IQ, until you worked closely with them on their academics. It is perfectly possible to be a normal human being and still have a very low IQ.)
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Malloy’s explanation is in fact extremely clear:
I’d like to reiterate, then, that IQs below 70 do not by themselves signify mental retardation, as it is commonly understood as a pathological state.
There are two types of retardation: familial and organic. The former is caused by normal population variation in intelligence while the latter is caused by diverse individual problems such as genetic defects or head injuries. Related to this, the IQ scores of people with familial retardation correlate normally with their parent and sibling’s IQ scores (.50), while the IQ scores of people with organic retardation are not much associated with the IQs in their family.
Retardation is measured by a combination of IQ and adaptive scales. Sometimes an IQ of 70 is used as the threshold of retardation. People with familial retardation and organic retardation of matched IQ perform the same in academic and training contexts, but organically retarded individuals do worse on the adaptive scales which measure things such as self-care, motor skills, and social functioning, signifying a broader range of mental dysfunction and some sort of developmental damage.
In the US, consistent with the normal bell curve, there are proportionately about five times as many blacks (16%) with an IQ of 70 or below than there are whites (3%). But basically the same proportional number of whites and blacks are organically retarded (whites 1.5%, blacks 2.0%). (The g Factor, p 369)
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BTW one of the most damning pieces of evidence against any “cultural” explanations aren’t the twin studies per se, but the brain size studies. William Saletan summarizes:
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Okay, I’ll give you just one example. Steve Sailer had a post at the very start of this subprime mortgage meltdown about how most of the subprime mortgages went to blacks and Hispnanics, like it vindicated much of his writings on race realism. Predictably, a lot of race realist blogs and commenters linked to this post and commented heavily on it and seemed downright celebratory about it. Lots of the usual IQ talk, etc, blahblahblah.
But to me, it was an absurd post for a race realist to post. What was he trying to prove? That blacks and hispanics have on average low IQ and therefore are bad at managing money? Hey, that I can agree with, no problem. But who was in charge of creating from the top-down this strategy of giving out subprime mortgages in the first place? High IQ whites. Whites with ivy league educations. Whites who have great educational pedigrees and low predisposition to crime. It took two to tango.
All these smart, high IQ whites couldn’t figure out that long-term giving people with bad credit scores huge mortgages would be bad for the economy? People with bad credit are SUPPOSED to make bad financial choices and get in over their heads. That’s the whole reason we have bad credit scores to begin with, to screen such people out. An objective person looks at the data and says, “Wow, both high IQ whites with great pedigrees who made these lending policies and approved these loans and the uneducated low IQ blacks and hispanics with zero education who received them joined together to make bad financial decisions, but it actually reflects even worse on the high IQ whites because theoretically their high IQ is supposed to make them know better.” A race realist however looks at the data and ignores how it reflects badly on the whites whose IQs are supposed to make them so much superior in decisionmaking and instead just focuses on black and hispanic mortgage holders and sees personal vindication and more excuse for racial cheerleading for their own side.
Personally, I judge a smart person who does stupid, boneheaded things harsher than I judge a stupid person who does stupid, boneheaded things, because the smart person is supposed to know better, but for a race realist they just ignore the part about the stupidity of high IQ, well-pedigreed whites because it’s ultimately a self-esteem ideology, similar to black radicalism or radical feminism.
Trust me, Steve Sailer is on my blogroll and I respect his thinking when he’s not being overly myopic, but he’s ultimately disappointed me because he’s turned out to be a selective race realist just like any other subscribed to self-esteem ideology, and not a true race realist. He’s outcome-based in that he can only see a data set and figure out how it makes non-Asian minorities or “other” whites like SWPLs or white low-IQ proles look bad. I’d love to see a race realist come about and gain prominence who is not outcome-based and ultimated interested in just cheerleading their own racial side, but I’ve yet to see it.
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Thursday:
That this fact demonstrates serious deficiencies in using IQ as a measure of general mental ability. According to the published research, IQ of ~70 would be characteristic of normal Western kids, Western retards, normal African adults, and normal Western adults from a century (or even less) ago.
Considering how differently the practical abilities of the mentioned groups of people are (or were), it seems to me that low IQ scores for at least some of them might be an a reflection of factors other than some abstract general intelligence.
According to research related to Flynn effect — which I’ve actually seen referenced as uncontroversial on GNXP — the average IQ measured or estimated for the most advanced Western societies 50-100 years ago was in the range of 70-80. What was “catastrophically wrong” with these societies, pray tell?
My own guess is that the average IQ has risen dramatically simply because many more people have been trained in the sorts of learned abilities that are the key for success on IQ tests. For modern Westerners and other technologically advanced, educated, bureaucratic cultures, sitting down quietly for an hour, carefully and diligently concentrating on finding patterns in little meaningless images is the most natural thing possible, like swimming in water for a fish. In fact, for more and more people in modern societies, this is actually more or less their job description, and even blue collar workers have spent years in school practicing such activities. However, for both our ancestors and many contemporary peoples, such an exercise would be highly unnatural, tiresome, possibly intimidating, and at any rate absurdly pointless.
In fact — and this is just my own speculation — I would bet that significant differences in IQ scores are caused just by the varying sense of *duty* towards testing procedures. We are all conditioned to respond to a formal testing procedure with docile obedience, utmost seriousness, and best effort; it is second nature for us. Someone who sees the whole process as something alien, weird, and pointless will likely put much less effort into it.
I have actually see this in practice when I was called for the army IQ test back in my native country. I’ll probably never remember the (possibly illiterate) Gypsy guy sitting next to me with that “what the hell am I supposed to do here” look on his face.
And before you start thinking that I’m denying the validity of IQ tests in general, no, that’s not at all what I suggest. On the contrary, the paper-shuffling and pattern-matching abilities I’m talking about are extremely important for doing productive work in a modern economy and generally finding your way around in the modern society. Thus, it’s not surprising that IQ correlates with all sorts of success in life: it reflects actual knowledge of the ways of the modern world.
The point is that for us it’s non-obvious to what extent these abilities are learned and transmitted culturally and how much they can be lacking in a society that doesn’t drill them into its members. Hunter-gatherers would probably be equally unable to understand to what extent people can turn into fat couch potatoes given an environment radically different from theirs.
I find it uninformative to the point of meaninglessness. He’s basically just telling us that everything’s still OK because we’ll name one thing this way, and another that way.
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T:
maybe they never thought the party would end. who’s to say they were wrong considering failed AIG executives get 3 million dollar bonuses courtesy of the taxpayers. your assumption assumes that we are living in a libertarian world where the winners take all. it is erroneous and doesn’t take into account the massive welfare state that perpetuates our landscape and our unconscious psyche.
we live in a world that is only partly meritocratic. people who don’t deserve to buy houses do. people who don’t deserve to sell houses do. and, the taxpayer picks up the tab when things go awry.
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It took two to tango.
Steve has been ridiculing the financial people for not looking up the demographics of the neighbourhoods where all these problems were occurring.
I don’t know _anywhere_ in Steve’s commentary on the crisis where he blames blacks and Hispanics for taking these mortgages.
it actually reflects even worse on the high IQ whites because theoretically their high IQ is supposed to make them know better.
Steve is known for his statement, “Political correctness makes you stupid.”
What was he trying to prove?
High IQ whites shouldn’t try to correct differences in home ownership rates between whites and minorities by lowering mortgage standards.
they just ignore the part about the stupidity of high IQ, well-pedigreed whites
But Steve didn’t ignore it.
I think you fundamentally misread Steve. Steve’s thing isn’t about showing how awful black or Hispanic people are. It’s about how white people use minorities as pawns in their own status games to beat up on and steal from other white people.
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In fact — and this is just my own speculation — I would bet that significant differences in IQ scores are caused just by the varying sense of *duty* towards testing procedures.
Rushton tested this hypothesis. It was falsified.
I have actually see this in practice when I was called for the army IQ test back in my native country. I’ll probably never remember the (possibly illiterate) Gypsy guy sitting next to me with that “what the hell am I supposed to do here” look on his face.
The U.S. Army thought this was a problem too, so they switched to a computerized test that gets progressively harder and stops feeding you questions that get you frustrated. It _slightly_ narrowed the scores between blacks and whites. All this was covered by Charles Murray.
Honestly, it’s like you haven’t read (or understood) any of the basic research in this area. Your obviously just winging it.
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we’ll name one thing this way, and another that way.
He names one thing one way and another that way because they are two different things.
The fault isn’t in Malloy, it is in you.
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I find it uninformative to the point of meaninglessness.
I’m beginning to think that a lot of the reason some people object to race realism is that they just aren’t smart enough to understand the arguments.
I would note that T. is perfectly smart enough to understand the arguments, and if pressed I don’t even think would deny the main tenets of race realism, such as there being some genetic component to the black-white IQ gap and that there is some genetic component to the higher crime rate among blacks than whites due to blacks having higher average testosterone levels and more testosterone receptors.
If T. wants to make the case that a lot of people want to turn race realism into an anti-PC ideology, well I think that is true too. But I see no evidence of that ideology behind the work of Sailer, Jensen, Murray et al.
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T.,
All these smart, high IQ whites couldn’t figure out that long-term giving people with bad credit scores huge mortgages would be bad for the economy?
There are two responses to this. First, a lot of high IQ whites figured out you could make a zillion dollars before this game of musical chairs ended. Second, a lot of high IQ
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… uh, whites were told to make the loans or get bad ratings under the CRA. And even high IQ people can delude themselves into believing all sorts of crazy things.
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It is to be noted that a lot of high IQ blacks have made a killing prior to things tanking 🙂 And a whole ‘lotta high IQ Indians are sitting nice, and pretty, on hotel property that they acquired via intelligently leveraged moves..
I believe IQ to be a result of many factors, certainly good genes matter, diet cannot be ruled out, nor can environment – stupid is often enough as stupid does, around you, to manifold dimensions, local pollution, eating lead paint as a tot, and many factors. Chocking it up as a racial matter may mistake correlation for cause.
It is to be noted that high IQ, or even moderate IQ, individuals can still make a bit under a zillion dollars here, and now, and that the game of musical chairs is still on – the terms have changed a bit, the music has changed, but the chairs are still there waiting to be sat on…
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T: But to me, it was an absurd post for a race realist to post. What was he trying to prove? That blacks and hispanics have on average low IQ and therefore are bad at managing money? Hey, that I can agree with, no problem. But who was in charge of creating from the top-down this strategy of giving out subprime mortgages in the first place? High IQ whites. Whites with ivy league educations. Whites who have great educational pedigrees and low predisposition to crime. It took two to tango.
All these smart, high IQ whites couldn’t figure out that long-term giving people with bad credit scores huge mortgages would be bad for the economy?
Sorry but this has to be the worst argument you’ve ever posted. I actually have a problem with Sailer’s “diversity recession” theory, mainly because most of his *numbers* are of the “look at how many blacks defaulted!” type instead of anything that gives a real sense of how much it meant for the economy. The rest of the world managed to inflate a similar bubble without any similar programs, so I’m going to assume that minorities weren’t a particularily significant part of it in the US until I see some numbers.
But you’re not making sense now. If I had known about it, I could’ve told people that the extended lending will be a disaster (even back when I had no opinion on PC or race realism), but similarily I would’ve also realized that making noise about programs “for minorities” is a shitstorm on my head for no reward, so I would have said nothing. Since everyone does the same, this is what we get.
Most people, smart or not, don’t have time to follow every obscure policy like lending to minorities, so they don’t usually even know what’s going on, since very few people speak critically of these things and even fewer make loud noise like, say, global warming activists. If you try “raising awareness” on the dangers of eased lending to minorities, you’re a NAZI RACIST!!!, so it’s not surprising that there’s little awareness.
T, you’re usually very clear-thinking, so I wonder why you’re being so myopic on this one. Perhaps you’ve been detecting the “blame minorities” tone that’s been bugging me too and you reflexively respond with another form of “blame”. But if high IQ whites are already frustrated about not being truly allowed to state their doubts on policy X because of PC idiots and the few people that make a killing from knowing the score and keeping it obscure to the rest, they’re really not going to get less frustrated when you add to that taunting about how they should’ve told people beforehand that X is a disaster.
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T aka Rickey Raw–
I too found Steve Sailer’s postings on the sub prime mortgage issues to be below standard. He was posting outside his area of expertise. He doesn’t understand wall street.
He had some points which WERE being swept under the rug by the mainstream PC press. But he also did get a bit unbalanced at times. It was actually his worst performance on something he posted on quite a lot, that I’ve seen.
However, you also have gone way overboard here. The main issue wasn’t that a lot of the people on Wall Street weren’t smart enough to see that they were helping build a house of cards in part (but only in part) on the basis of sub prime mortgage loans. It’s that they could become rich, really rich, playing the game while the getting was good. This lead most to a sort of self delusion, and a few to completely cynical exploitation, and a few to bow out.
it came to pass even before the oughts that most mortgages weren’t held long term by their originator banks or increasingly mortgage brokers, but rather by either US agencies, Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, or the securitization market. Fanny and Freddie where exhorted beginning with the Clinton adminstration to be relaxed about standards especially for minority borrowers. And so became. This was emulated and taken up a notch in the fully private, securitazation market.
There the investors were sold on the non riskiness of the investment in securitized pools of mortgages by a combination of 1) the history of US residential real estate prices never going down in the whole country overall; 2) the safety of diversification, through buying a piece of a large national pool of mortgages; 3) by further sophisticated slicing of mortgage pools into risk “tranches” and selling the risk adverse on the highest or least risky of those tranches (and here we’re getting into real razzle dazzle territory, where the buyers didn’t really understand the wizardry of Wall Street, especially those Jews and yeah some S.Asians too, but were impressed); and then a little later on 4) institutions “insuring” away their queasyness in buying this exotic and unproven stuff by buying even more exotic insurance policies against such losses, called “credit default swaps” or later “credit default obligations”. AIG was big in issuing those.
This gathered momentum and created huge fortunes on wall street. Most didn’t really know the size of the overally problem, they just knew their neck of the woods was a goldmine. So the pigged out.
It wasn’t stupidity. It was greed, and the lack of regulations.
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Thursday:
And I’m beginning to think that a lot of the reason some people are fervent advocates of “race realism” is that they’ve acquired an arsenal of ready-made boilerplate arguments, sufficient — in their view — to counter any possible objection to their position, and they like the feeling of intellectual superiority and rhetorical power that this gives them.
If you really don’t see the problem with the way Malloy has dealt with the issue and if you think that my problem is that I’m too stupid to understand his brilliant explanation, I really don’t see any point in continuing. Hell, even Malloy himself has admitted that when it comes to this issue, there exists “a theoretical deficit in intelligence research” (his exact words) elsewhere. Google it if you don’t believe me. It’s buried in another very long article, but it’s a mighty big admission considering who it’s coming from.
So, after Rushton has pontificated on the issue, anyone doubting his conclusions must be ignorant, deluded, or dishonest? If you really believe that these issues have been settled decisively, well, what can I say except to repeat that Rushton & Co. aren’t the ultimate authorities and arbiters of truth in this area. I won’t bother giving links to more recent literature discussing these issues, since you’ll again just brush it off — after all, if it hasn’t been featured on GNXP and if it contradicts the pronunciations of the Pioneer Fund’s magisterium, it must be either dishonest or irrelevant, right?
Honestly, it’s like you aren’t even trying to understand my argument, but merely waiting for another opportunity to reproduce something from the above-mentioned arsenal of boilerplate and then triumphantly announce the depths of my ignorance. Yes, I am familiar with this particular fact, but again, if you think that pointing it out is sufficient to refute what I wrote about this topic, I can only conclude that further discussion is completely futile.
Feel free to be the last one to drop snide comments, I’ve already wasted too much time on this. Just try to come to terms with dougjnn on whether I’m an underhanded leftist shill or just not smart enough to understand your superior arguments.
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[…] preselection programming is a blunt algorithm. That is, when a woman sees you with another woman, she does not filter your quality based on your companion’s beauty as perceptively as a man filters for female beauty. You have some wiggle room in your choice of social proof. If […]
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“Villarreal is one of those leftwing social engineering dickbags I will laugh at when he’s hanging from a lamppost after the glorious revolution against the elitist-driven Campaign of Lies has begun” (RosinDC)
Hear hear!!!!
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This discovery has far reaching benefits and concerns. The benefits could come from military uniforms which could be worn on the battlefield allowing the soldier to move about virtually undetected by the enemy. I’ m sure there are soldiers in Iraq at the moment who would love to get their hands on an Invisibility Cloak or any other material that would reduce the ability of Iraqi insurgents to take aim at them.
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[…] discern female beauty in context with everything else and through the lens of their own sexual market value. They see horrendous fashion sense and they […]
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It was such an eye-catching article! If you’re searching for a partner you don’t need to pretend as if you’re somebody else. You can make girls fall in love with you in many ways. It depends on the woman of how she could handle it. Comparable, I am an educated woman with a lot of pleasures in life and marry a man who does not have anything to show. However, he does everything for our relationship. He sacrifices even in a simple way. That is why; we stay for almost 30 years.
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[…] you want to keep your marriage hot and heavy, maintain a dark triad edge: think highly of yourself, break the rules, and occasionally lie for the hell of it. She’ll […]
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oh man, I love the pic of Jaric and his lady. He’s not smiling as alpha males don’t, and the comments are “why is he not smiling” hahahaaha
looks to me like a natural and his prize…hope he can keep it that way.
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[…] Most douchebags are naturals with women, probably because they aren’t smart enough to question their unwavering self-confidence. In fact, the best naturals with women mostly occupy the left hand side of the bell curve. The truly dangerous skirt chasers are the naturals with smarts. There aren’t many of them, but they do exist. They are unstoppable forces of nature, owing partly to their concomitant suite of dark triad traits. […]
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Game just levels the playing field for men or gives them the advantage because men are taught that women are mysterious creatures by the media but, game lets you know exactly what they want and love and women are taught what men love and use it so its only fair men use what women love to get them. The funny thing is that game is just appealing to a woman’s instincts to find a strong man so, their is nothing they can do about it its all natural
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[…] Beauty is not contingent upon a women’s bitchiness or criminal propensity. (In fact, female thuggishness is usually a leading indicator of ugliness.) In contrast, charisma and will-to-power are correlative with male criminal propensity. […]
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