I had a conversation with a girl who described how she was trapped in the hell matrix of shopping for a bridesmaid dress. Here is her dispatch from the frontlines.
HER: I had to go bridesmaid dress shopping on Saturday. If you thought the baby shower was gayer than gay, you have no idea.
ME: haha. Was it you and the girls?
HER: There were overbearing eastern european megalomaniac high pressure saleswomen. The fattest brides I’ve ever seen. And one woman in a halter wedding gown (white) who was at least pushing 65.
ME: Wow. What gift do you get the blushing bride who has 65 years worth of accumulated stuff?
HER: The saleslady suggested she wear a cape for modesty’s sake. But she adamantly refused and kept parading around haughtily while her withered groomsman, 20 years her junior at least, slumped in the corner with his coffee cup. It was a depressing scene to be sure.
ME: A beaten man. Barely alive.
HER: I tried on like one dress and said “K. Good to go. Let’s just take this one.” But no, they want you to pore over every last detail, photograph them all, revisit the choices. For 3 hours.
ME: Psychotic!
HER: My mom came in to get a mother of the groom dress, and sort of sighed heavily. She’s like “What color will you wear?” “Black.” “Emily!!” “What? I can wear it again for any occasion. Bar mitzvahs… funerals…”. Megan (the bride-to-be) instead settled on a putrid shade of mocha. We’ll look like gussied up turds. Turd cakes.
ME: The minister will be Mr. Hanky. Howdy ho everybody!
HER: It’s just a sea of color swatches and taffeta and a sense of crushing defeat. Not to mention the pitying looks at the bridesmaids for not having “made it”. Always a bridesmaid. Just like the damn Swedes at the world junior hockey championships. The room was pepto-bismol pink. Like being in a turbulent stomach. And she still couldn’t find a dress! So we get to do it all over again! Wheeee!!!! SHOOT ME.
ME: It’s exactly the nightmare most men imagine it to be.
/Thanks God for his penis and being spared this shit
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My mother forced me to go “shopping” with her many a time when I was a kid. Needless to say it highlighted the Hunter vs Gatherer mentality between men and women quite clearly in my childhood brain. For men Gathering = torture.
To this day I adamently refuse when a woman suggests I go shopping with her.
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Since these are the swedes, was there any torpedo offense going on? maybe the pathetic groom can get a handy from a turd-looking bridesmaid?
I’m surprised the bride brought the groom. Isn’t he not supposed to see her in the wedding dress before the first day?
And did she wear white?????
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I don’t know if I’ve ever met a woman whose knowledge of hockey was so detailed that she was not only familiar with the WJC, but also with Sweden’s history at it.
Lurker, I think when you’re a 65yo bride, it’s hard to keep up much of a pretense of “mystique” about the whole thing.
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lol. good point, kdg.
Then why a white wedding dress? That’s supposed to signify virginity.
reminds me of Miranda from SATC (yeah, I know) when she got married after having a kid with the father:
“I’m not wearing white. I already had a kid. The jig is up.”
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I believe the idea is that bridesmaids are supposed to look as bad as possible so that they don’t take attention away from the bride.
Peter
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“The fattest brides I’ve ever seen. And one woman in a halter wedding gown (white) who was at least pushing 65… kept parading around haughtily while her withered groomsman, 20 years her junior at least, slumped in the corner with his coffee cup.”
I don’t understand the great number of American men who marry these fat, old SHE-BEASTS.
These guys may not have sexual choice when comes to loving relationships with women, but surely a life of alcohol & hot hookers would be more preferable.
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These guys may not have sexual choice when comes to loving relationships with women, but surely a life of alcohol & hot hookers would be more preferable.
I agree. Thing is, for many guys there are taboos attached to paying for a hooker’s services. I enjoyed lapdances when I was single but the idea of paying for sex was taboo for me. Of course now, being in my late 30s, I’d have no problem with it if I were a single guy.
Alcohol is great, but hangovers get nastier with age.
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“Always a bridesmaid. Just like the damn Swedes at the world junior hockey championships.”
Is she Canadian?
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I have done this 7 times in the past 3 years. Being a bridesmaid. Thankfully, 5 of the girls were actually best friends who picked out flattering and somewhat okay looking dresses…and all the bridesmaids were under 30 and ranging from 7-9 on the hot scale and 100-120 on the weight scale.
So even the blah dresses were ok.
The other two? She dressed us like cupcakes. This is a girl who had a $25,000 (YES YOU HEARD THAT RIGHT) dress…and dressed US like cupcakes.
Good times!
Guys are beyond lucky they have basically nada to do as friends of the groom.
The weddings themselves are always fun though. Who can beat a free bar and dancing?
Although white guys dancing isn’t always the prettiest sight…its still actually fun.
The work all around helping out a wedding??
NOT. FUN.
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Another theory for feminism: largely caused by women forcing shopping upon each other.
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Now yes Roissy, this is the exactly definition of gay. The homossexual gay. WASN’T THIS BLOG SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT GAME???
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mr. hanky ALSO provides pre-marital counseling services!
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KassyK,
“Although white guys dancing isn’t always the prettiest sight …”
You think white GIRLS dancing is a pretty site?
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“I agree. Thing is, for many guys there are taboos attached to paying for a hooker’s services. I enjoyed lapdances when I was single but the idea of paying for sex was taboo for me. Of course now, being in my late 30s, I’d have no problem with it if I were a single guy.”
The hooker taboo comes from FEMINISTS shaming men in order to mystify women’s vaginas to exert power over men.
In EVERY country where prostitution is legal, women’s attitudes are more respectful toward their men.
When a woman lives in a country where men can get pussy that’s just as hot, if not hotter, than hers by dropping a few bills, she’s going to focus on improving her PERSONALITY.
In America, these fat she-beasts act like goddesses simply because they have a pussy that they know deprived American men would do anything to get married to.
But if you’re resigned to a life of fatty fucking, at least be smart like black guys and don’t marry that she-beast.
American society is all wrong. Instead of men SHAMING women into submission, it’s the other way around.
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I hate weddings. I especially hate wedding where either the bride or groom or both have whored it up and now are trying to idealize their love to some sort of cosmic level. That or when one of them is really just a plain asshole.
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Interesting. In Poland spectacular weddings are traditional for rural areas, so in cities people prefer to avoid excesses in that direction in order not to seem rednecks.
And dressing bridesmaids in identical clothing – chosen by the bride – seems a bit over the top.
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Anon said: “The hooker taboo comes from FEMINISTS shaming men in order to mystify women’s vaginas to exert power over men. ”
It goes back further than that. There’s always been a religious taboo against this in American society. Unlike Europe, this country was founded by Puritans, and a lot of our concepts of “sinfulness” in one way or another still stem from that.
When you live in a country where eating a cupcake or burger is a sin to some, you can bet hookers would be considered taboo.
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“The hooker taboo comes from FEMINISTS shaming men in order to mystify women’s vaginas to exert power over men. ”
I’m willing to try a hooker in order to stick it to “the woman.”
But where do you find clean, hot hookers, and how much can you expect to pay? It’s just not an industry I’m familiar with. In what countries is it legal?
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“When you live in a country where eating a cupcake or burger is a sin to some, you can bet hookers would be considered taboo.”
I wish our society considered eating cupcakes and burgers a sin…
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m-
Quite a few of my white female friends can dance (a few of us are trained dancers as well)–but yes, agreed, if you can’t dance–it doesn’t matter your gender or your race–its bad.
🙂
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The hooker taboo comes from FEMINISTS shaming men in order to mystify women’s vaginas to exert power over men.
This is silly. The taboo agains hookers has existed from time immemorial. For example, the Bible has several high octane rants agains prostitutes. Here are some of the reasons for this taboo:
1. Hookers tend to have a lot of diseases.
2. Hookers are, almost by definition, low quality women.
3. Paying for sex is for losers. Either you were too lazy to put in the effort to get a normal girl, or you couldn’t get a normal girl at all.*
*Only senior citizens get a pass on this.
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puhleeeze
any dancer who has FIVE (5) bffs is a bim. I suppose all your “black” bffs do “da rumpshaka” compulsively whenever they hear a pimp drop.
Spoiled bitch weddings are the result of a permissive, feminized society continually indulging the narcissistic vanity of females no matter the tonnage and miles.
any real fem will tell you women cannot be trusted.
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Some nice thoughts on marriage and modern weddings from Megan McArdle in her classic post on gay marriage:
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Firepower–I have been reading your comments all over the blogosphere. Who are you? Why anon?
Because I like to dance (and I am older than 17–so please spare me the ho-dance talk– no one I know dances like a ho–it is possible to love to dance and be classy about it)…
And because I have close friends makes me a BIM?!
You take a look at women with zero friends…then you have your “bim”. Those are the women not to be trusted.
My friends have stayed close since college because we love and care for each other–having real, genuine close friends does not make you a BAD person.
I love my friends and we care for and love each other…why you seem to think that is a bad thing is weird and sad to me.
Oh well.
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4) In some cases, girls are forced or sold into prostitution so going to them is being complicit in an awful crime.
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Firepower–I have been reading your comments all over the blogosphere. Who are you? Why anon?
Because I like to dance (and I am older than 17–so please spare me the ho-dance talk– no one I know dances like a ho–it is possible to love to dance and be classy about it)…
And because I have close friends makes me a BIM?!
You take a look at women with zero friends…then you have your “bim”. Those are the women not to be trusted.
My friends have stayed close since college because we love and care for each other–having real, genuine close friends does not make you a BAD person.
I love my friends and we care for and love each other…why you seem to think that is a bad thing is weird and sad to me.
Oh well.
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Where is T. to provide an illuminating comment on how white women can dance, but white men cannot?
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That sounds like a smashing good time!
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KassyK
Firepower–I have been reading your comments all over the blogosphere. Who are you? Why anon?
I love my friends and we care for and love each other…why you seem to think that is a bad thing is weird and sad to me.”
Kassy, thanks for your compassion. That’s almost like 38th on my list of “Reasons I Like Dancers.”
I’ll agree with you that the less the friends, the more “bimmy” the bitch. That’s usually bc she’s so fucking hot, other women don’t want to be around her ime. Girlies that travel in packs, well – that’s a whole different breed of angsty lass who feels compelled to protect herself from true Men by the minefield of group bitchery. Like choads who travel in packs, chortling themselves into courage to talk to Random Hot Chick #348
Glad you’re over 17 – I can’t be charged for pawing jailbait. If you have the balls to discover the wonder that I am, an email contact can be arranged. I’m not scared of the likes of you lol
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bwahahahahaha! motherfucker said “rumpshaka”!
and KassyK, I would REALLY like to smack your titties.
i like how one of the first things you touch on in your “about” section is your hair. could you BE more vapid?
yeah… still wanna smack your tits though. definitely have to motor-boat those puppies too. grats biatch…
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David Brooks makes an argument I find convincing: that the proliferation of the kind of extravagent weddings that used to only be the province of high society (rented venue, extravagent flowers and food, hundreds of guests, a band with dancing, dresses that cost the same as a good used car) is because the event itself doesn’t mean nearly as much as it used to, so we have to turn it into a three-ring circus to feel like we’re really doing something.
I’m not so sure if there’s really any connection. “No-fault” divorce is a surprisingly recent development in the United States, starting around 1970 and not being implemented in all states for about another decade. Extravagant weddings started well before that.
In addition, events such as childrens’ birthday parties and graduation parties have become much fancier.
Peter
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oh, and i just downloaded (stole) the first three seasons of LOST. i may visit your blog sometime soon. *if* you’re lucky…
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“Paying for sex is for losers. Either you were too lazy to put in the effort to get a normal girl, or you couldn’t get a normal girl at all.”
Unless you only do one-night stands and kick girls out the next morning, you are paying for sex in one way or another.
Any guy who’s dated, been in a relationship, or been divorced, or has ever done anything for a girl in the hopes of getting laid knows that you ALWAYS pay for sex in one form or another.
ALL women know this.
That’s why calling a woman an EXPENSIVE WHORE is not an insult, as opposed to calling her a CHEAP WHORE.
Ever wonder why women love to show off their FAT DIAMOND ENGAGEMENT RING to their female friends, who get happy and envious?
That’s because she has moved from the “cheap whore” category to “expensive whore” category.
Anyway, the original point is that alcohol & hot hookers is a whole lot better, and ultimately cheaper, than being married to a fat, she-beast and then getting ass-raped in divorce court.
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Peter: “In addition, events such as childrens’ birthday parties and graduation parties have become much fancier.”
Also, proms. I blame the influence of Hollywood on why weddings, proms and the like have gotten so overblown.
Here is a story about a school in the UK that canceled its prom because of all the extravagance:
http://www.momlogic.com/2009/03/school_cancels_prom.php
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Firepower–My “best friends” don’t travel in packs–unfortunately we all currently live in different cities. NYC, San Diego, Miami, Charleston and DC. The wedding events bring us together.
So agreed that girls who travel in packs are also not the best to pick up. Definitely not.
That being said–if you got the impression I am the kind of girl who needs to be “feared” in any way–I’m not.
I don’t get off on power…I don’t need to put people down…hence, my innate dislike of DC these days. Power hungry angry money grubbers. Don’t like them.
Kick A Bitch–The comments about my hair on my “about me” section are in reference to a gossip blogger who tormented me about my hair for no good reason for 2 years….posting comments and POSTS on his blog about my hair.
I don’t know why I feel the need to tell you that but I guess because I am a sensitive person and my feelings are hurt.
Off I go…this board is too angry for my liking.
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ahahahahahahahaha!!!
no doubt… i wish consensual crimes like prostitution and drug use were legal.
you don’t pay a bitch to fuck you, you pay her to stfu and leave…
and not to mention that a whore would probably have to be skilled to be successful. there is NOTHING like courting a hot bitch only to find out she SUCKS in bed.
thumbs up for prostitution!
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” Extravagant weddings started well before that.”
–I don’t know fi that’s true, iron. It would seem that it is recent.
Then again, “Father of the Bride” is from the 1960s, so maybe. Then again, so is feminism and modern working woman.
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Kick A bitch– DAMN! You mention Lost and got me back on here. SNNNNEAKY. I like it.
Just so you know…Season 2 of Lost is just “eh”–but Season 3 brings it back to great…and then Season 4 and 5 are INSANELY good.
I mean…amazing.
I can’t believe I am offering this someone who wants to smack my tits but LOST makes me crazy, so here goes–I can give you site where you can watch Seasons 4 and 5 for free without downloading–completely legal.
When you get to those seasons–and if I’m lucky I suppose–hit up my blog and I’ll give you the details.
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awwwwww… did its feeling get hurt? ffs KassyK, grow a pair. i was complementing you…
p.s. i like your hair. i would LOVE to yank on it some time…
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much mo betta!
yah, i have already watched Season 1 and most of 2 back in the day. You’re right, 2 was meh. But I shall push on regardless.
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And one woman in a halter wedding gown (white) who was at least pushing 65.
Shudder.
If you thought the baby shower was gayer than gay, you have no idea.
David loves his female friends, but he doesn’t do baby showers (unless there are other males to go hang out with) or or bridal shopping. David’s request is that you merely show him the ugly dress that reminds you of your single status afterwards.
My mother forced me to go “shopping” with her many a time when I was a kid.
As a child, mom used to do the same thing to me, and since she doesn’t drive, I usually end up taking her to the mall to go shopping.
Thing is, for many guys there are taboos attached to paying for a hooker’s services.
For me, the problem is due to the legal issues here in the US, and the fact that it’s like marriage to a woman as a beta. She really doesn’t find you attractive or interesting, and she’s faking the orgasms and affection only to get your money. Plus, there’s always the disease concerns and the issues of human trafficking as PA pointed out.
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Thursday: Where is T. to provide an illuminating comment on how white women can dance, but white men cannot?
Why do you need T to tell you the truth? If Justin Timberlake were to die tomorrow you would remove 95% of the dancing talent found in white American males today.
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DF, white men can dance, we just gave it to black guys so they could feel like they could do *one* thing right.
Hiyo!
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Roissy had a post on a friend of his who used prostitutes. Roissy thought it was beta.
I’m on the fence. On the one hand, its the ultimate beta move: I can’t get a woman to sleep with me, here’s my money.
On the other hand, its alpha: I don’t care about you or your life or your problems; suck me off, do what I say, and leave at the end, you are no more useful to me than a piece of meat.
Thoughts?
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In addition, events such as childrens’ birthday parties and graduation parties have become much fancier.
Allegedly, in some black communities, elementary school graduates have elaborate parties with expensive and sometimes gaudy suits and dresses and limousines. Some say that this is to distract from the misery of living in their environment and others argue it’s the cover up the fact that most of these kids won’t graduate high school.
I suspect this along with the expensive Sweet 16s and high end proms will go away with the end of liberal credit policies and our turn into austerity. No more taking out home equity loans for a birthday party…
Alert: Like most weirdos and nerds, David didn’t go to the prom. Yeah, a white (well, Italian) girl asked me so she wouldn’t go alone), but I wasn’t interested in spending money I didn’t have on something I didn’t want to do.
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Lurker,
The problem with this talk of prostitution is that we’re talking like there are only two choices: hookers or dates. There’s a grey area — regular women who are willing to do “arrangements.”
This is something that’s rarely discussed. Has anyone done this, male or female? I know several women who have.
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KassyK
“Firepower–
That being said–if you got the impression I am the kind of girl who needs to be “feared” in any way–I’m not.”
yah…i know…its sarcasm. I knew you wouldnt get it, as in I fear you like I would a fluffy pit Yorkie or Guard PapiPoo. You did sidestep and forget just about everything else I wrote, incl the offer. That proves you really are a woman, not some hairy dude trying to internets fellate me.
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White women are slightly better dancers than white men, as opposed to blacks and latinos, where both genders can dance. Indians and Asians can also dance slightly better than the white male.
More mysterious to me are the CIRCUMSTANCES surrounding bad white male dancing (noted above): there really is something about weddings, more than in clubs, bars or any other dance environment that incites bad-dancing white males to just unapologetically bust a move. Arms flail. Legs kick. They bite their lower lip and bob their heads when a face-melting guitar riff from the 80s hits their ears. These tux-wearing, beer-bottle holding, teenage girl-grinding nontravoltas cavort like jackasses, possessed by the $100 per night DJ, in front of their own wives, their own mothers, and often their own children.
More foolish and inane behaviour by far than they would ever pull at a club with just their male friends.
Why is this?
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Days, you do? That’s weird, never heard of it. Is that like “I need rent money” or is it more “sugar daddy-mistress” types?
Both I would consider prostitution, just high class/selective ones.
p.s. in a contradiction that cannot be explained, Goodfellas was on the morality network last night, ion.
however, for game purposes, there’s a scene where ray liotta is showing off his mistress’s apartment (paid for by him, while he is married to another owman). She’s showing her gfs, and he throws her onto the bed in front of them and molests her, to their giggles.
Mistress gets off bed and walks out to show off more of apartment. But Liotta makes eye contact with one other gf and doesn’t break it, getting off the bed slowly and heading towards her like a hungry wolf.
She’s smitten, and obviously confused: slowling backing away (he is her gf’s bf) but clearly interested (not breaking contact, smiling nervously and flirtatiously). It ends with her banging into the wall, and skipping out of the room with a nervous laugh.
Classic example of a) how women are amoral (she’s going to 2-time a married woman and her best friend) b) how confidence is an aphrodisiac (he wants her and knows he can have her) and c) how communication of power/confidence to women can be completely nonverbal.
Scorcese may be a short nervous jumpy old man, but he sure knows what turns women on.
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Bridesmaid dress shopping is horrible, no doubt, but there’s something worse for men: attending a bachelor party with a bunch of Jesus kids.
http://chuckross.blogspot.com/2009/03/most-saddest-bachelor-party-in-world.html
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Mr. Firepower wants to be flagellated by a hairy dude? Sounds kinky… dirty bird you
Regarding the whole prostitution being beta thing… I dunno. It may be beta but it would CERTAINLY be a lot easier to deal with in the long run.
I get REALLY tired of bitches some times. After a while you start seeing/hearing the same bullshit over and over again. Yeah, you may learn to deal with it better but shit, it can get extremely tiring.
I think the ones I can’t stand the most are the stop-everything-for-me types. I’m about to offload one who thinks my world should revolve around her. Yeah, as if that is gonna happen.
Kick a bitch!
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Roissy, it sounds like she was running Kathy Griffin Game and you were running Sidekick Game. Yes, marriage is a nightmare in 99% of cases. This episode of The Tick captures the terror of all terrors; The Wedding Day.
http://www.thetick.ws/car28.html
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Howard,
White men can’t dance because they never practice it. Growing up, there are no clubs in suburbia, nor is attraction based on dancing ability, so no impetus. Even in an older setting, bars men frequent typically do not play dancing music. White/subruban men are taught or learn that desireability comes from money, sports, political power, rock bands, etc., but not dancing.
White Girls “dance” because many desireable traits for girls—being a cheerleader, wearing sexy outfits, staying in shape—can be had from dancing. Plus, girls just like to dance, hence why men in urban environments use it to get laid.
When white men go to weddings, it is one of the few times they voluntarily go somewhere where dancing is. Most of the time, free alcohol and the urge to show off overcome the natural “I have no practice at this.” Its a celebration, etc, and it s a rare opportunity to dance, so they go all out. It’s a release of a natural human expression bottled up from lack of opportunity/stereotyping for them.
I think there may be an impetus for white/suburban girls to keep their men from dancing, namely, so that if she wants to go out and have an experience with a taboo race (usually black), she can go to a dance club without the fear of white men seeing her getting her chocolate notch. That, and it means more competition from women who are attracted when they see a man who can dance.
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Thursday
In brothels the prostitutes are tested regularly, and I think they’re less likely to have diseases than “normal” women (and I would say that they’re also higher quality than women who sleep around for free).
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tokyojesusfist prolly buys prostitutes all the time… ever splurge for the basket?
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Kick a bitch, Hiyo!
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I remember Steve Sailer writing this article about how gay marriage might cause straight guys to skip getting married because the marriage process is a “a grueling, months-long odyssey through an alien and threatening feminine landscape” and allowing gays to marry would make it worse.
At the time, I thought it he was just a social conservative desperate to make a non-religious case as to why “the gays” couldn’t get married. But who knows, maybe he was right.
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Kick a Bitch
I’ve never even met a prostitute.
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lurker
White men can’t dance because they never practice it. Growing up, there are no clubs in suburbia, nor is attraction based on dancing ability, so no impetus.
White men “can’t” dance because they’ve been conditioned out of it. Young boys DANCE. They’re some of the best dancers around. It’s only after “society” get hold of them and insists that all that joyful emotion is for girls. The finest men are on the dance floor; period. Dancing is sex(ual energy), standing up Things I require in any future sex partners; love of music, dancing, my daughter, and cats.
Roissy finds music and dancing boring, or so he says, hence I find HIM boring.
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It’s another big red flag that the balance of power in relationships has shifted radically to women.
Weddings a female/gay horror show for men.
It wasn’t always that way.
Moreover, as McCardle noted, because marriage is not special anymore, and merely a “maybe” pairing, the idea of a huge, gay-tinged party, for women, is going to be less and less attractive.
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tokyo, surely you’ve met your own mother?
Hiyo!
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And yet another thread is about to be derailed and destroyed by lurker.
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I would swoop the 65 year old.
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Chuck:
Lol. Church bachelor parties are indeed the worst.
For one of my best friends’ bachelor party, I once spent 3 hours at The Keg (a Canadian steakhouse chain) discussing motorhomes. It was one of the most depressing things I’ve ever experienced.
Fortunately, I didn’t hate the wedding, which from me is a big thumbs up.
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Kick a Bitch
“Mr. Firepower wants to be flagellated by a hairy dude? Sounds kinky… dirty bird you”
sorry ma’am – I don’t see where you got THAT idea from what I wrote.
very odd
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“The finest men are on the dance floor; period. ”
—Sara, many men dance because they need to dance because they are inherently NOT fine.
They are ugly and gay and in the closet (Usher), ugly and straight (Fred Astaire) or scrawny, large nosed (Timberlake) or unremarkablly normal or perhaps even a bit dorky (Chris Brown, Gene Kelly). Many male dancers are also short dudes who need to compensate for the lack of height by substituting a skill.
An tall, attractive man with game in an urban environment has no need to dance–he can get girls without it. Take a good look at the faces of men who can dance and you will find men who definitely need to dance to get laid (unless they are gay and out of the closet, in which case they are just women).
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There’s a grey area — regular women who are willing to do “arrangements.”
This is something that’s rarely discussed. Has anyone done this, male or female? I know several women who have.
It’s an interesting concept, but doesn’t it require the male in question to have some game or lots of money to get a decent looking woman? Plus, doesn’t it leave the male open to the possibility of a gold digger who’ll magically become pregnant and take a perpetual claim via child support?
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Sara, for proof, see any “So you think you can dance?” show and spot the straight men —usually not that hard, since its only 1 or 2. They are invariably the short, dorky looking, ugly dudes, except perhaps Twitch, who was a fattie dorkie who worked his body well.
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thursday:
i forgot to mention that the wedding was horrible, the dry reception was worse, and the “gift” for my service as an usher was a monogrammed bible which is ironic since they knew i was a non-believer.
whiskey:
again you got the hampster wheel turning in my head…why are so many weddings planned by gay men? also, why are so many fashionistas also gay men? they neither get married on a large scale nor dress like women (for the most part).
is this at all similar to a woman coaching a football team or presiding over a UFC fight?
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So NASA contacted me, asking “How can we fuck bitches in outer space? Bitches be floating off our cocks and shit like that.” I told them to strap the bitches down to mattresses then strap the mattresses to the ship’s hull. That’s how I fuck bitches on special occasions on Earth.
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gay men treat women like living barbie dolls, to be dressed and put into fantastic environments with no bearing on reality. Gay men live a fantasy life through women, which is also why they encourage promiscuity in women, since, if they were women, that’s what they would do: screw every hot straight guy they, as gays, couldn’t have.
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why are so many fashionistas also gay men?
“Fashion” is a conspiracy of gay men to make straight women look stupid and demoralize all women who aren’t rail-thin epicenes.
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The sons of white women who can dance, can also dance. Maybe Blacks, Latins, and South Asians have more assortative mating — so the mother who can dance finds a father who can also dance, whereas white women who can dance don’t care if the husband can or cannot dance.
That’s what we expect if dancing plays a more central role in community life among lower-latitude races. It’s where you find your dates. Higher-latitude races find their partners in church, or whatever, so they aren’t sorted by dancing ability.
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Lurker
I was not implying that all men who dance are fine, and personally I don’t care what consensus, studies or statistics say about dancing men being beta, gay or what not. What turns me on is an alpha-beta who loves music and dancing. They may be rare breed, but doesn’t that make them more valuable? After all I only ‘need” ONE, My life is not run by statistical probabilities. And if I don’t attract ONE, I’m quite happy with NONE.
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The minister will be Mr. Hanky. Howdy ho everybody!
It always sounds to me as if Mr. Hanky says Hidie ho rather than Howdy ho. It’s hard to tell for sure, given the way the first word is drawn out.
Peter
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Weddings a female/gay horror show for men.
It wasn’t always that way.
Moreover, as McCardle noted, because marriage is not special anymore, and merely a “maybe” pairing, the idea of a huge, gay-tinged party, for women, is going to be less and less attractive.
The more marriage is dominated by gays – and especially if gays are allowed to get married, and turn wedding ceremonies into freakish pageants of gayness – the more normal, straight people will run away from marriage. It is not impossible that gays actively want this. After all, if “normality” is completely destroyed, who could call gays abnormal?
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“The sons of white women who can dance, can also dance.”
—I have met many a cheerleader’s/.chorus girl’s son that would dispute that finding. It’s based on practice. If you spent your entire young life, every friday and saturday night fixing cars, you’d be a damn good mechanic at age 21, and better than 99% of the population, no matter how little talent you’d had at it to begin with. In contrast, if you’d never touched or studied a car till age 21, you couldn’t fix it right away, no matter how much talent you had at it.
Agree with the rest of your post.
“What turns me on is an alpha-beta who loves music and dancing”
—–if it turns you on, good. But they are 99% not fine or gay.
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Dancing ability correlates (around +0.4, iirc) with bodily symmetry. So better dancers are better looking. They both probably reflect an underlying “healthy development” factor. Sick or malnourished people look ugly and don’t show much vigor.
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agnostic, where do you get that stat from?
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Because Fred Astaire and Usher are exhibits A) & B) to counteract that.
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Your friend made a Junior hockey reference. She must be Canadian.
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Lurker
—–if it turns you on, good. But they are 99% not fine or gay.
They may be 99% non existent! Actually I’ve seen more than a few. My profession puts me in frequent contact with dance floors, so I should know. I have to admit there are men who are better off OFF the dance floor. If you’re not into it, it’s ridiculous to try just to impress women.
Great song, great dancing. Gay? Tiga is not gay, but possibly bi. The dancers? Don’t know, don’t care; they’re Good.
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Kassy,
I probably have issues, but I like women dressed like cupcakes. Want to lick the frosting, taste the filling, and all that jazz.
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He he
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Sara wrote:
“Roissy finds music and dancing boring, or so he says, hence I find HIM boring”
I wonder if “bridgegirl” thinks the same thing Sara? Except YOU Sara, are here on his blog all the time telling him, y’know, he’s not all-that and everything. Its kinda unconvincing on your part. It looks like you are merely infatuated-beyond-belief to the rest of us. You are not going to even dent his ego, I assure you, anymore that Jennifer Anniston could dent Brad Pitt’s ego.
For the women, Kassy K included:
Unless one of you is “loaded” with money……
Big, expensive weddings are a financial detriment to men getting married. Those thousands of dollars spent could have been a nice downpayment for your house, or could have furnished your house with furniture and various other accountrments you will actually USE, maybe even a new larger car for when you have kids.
A big wedding is throwing away alot of your labor (it takes time to make money, therefore when you throw money away, you are throwing away the ‘stuff’ that life is made of—-namely, time). Not very long ago, as other commenters have pointed out, when two people decided to share their lives together and build a family with each other, and accept each other’s family as in-laws, they just went to one of the churches that either of them attended, and had a small wedding that didn’t last but maybe half-an-hour. No songs blaring over stereo systems, no “programs”, any of that jazz. “Weddings as showBUSINESS” is a relatively recent phenomenon. It truly wastes the couple’s money, but is an opportunity for the female to show off “status” to other females, friends and rivals (who often aren’t there) alike.
I would liken a big wedding to a man blowing thousands of dollars a la Elliot Spitzer, on high-end-call girls, but except in this case it was a man of average means who goes into several thousands of dollars in debt to do it. Did he have a good time in those 20 or so hours? Yup, but his memories are all he had. His credit card statements will be with him for years as he pays interest on those memories.
—————————————————————————
Hookers:
Hookers are for men who make a lot of money. I mean a lot of money. If a man has everything paid off, and makes several hundred-thousands-of-dollars a year, and just has to fuck a 10 with specific characteristics that he cannot get out of his head, why not? But for the rest of us…………..you need that money. You dont have 1000 bucks to burn on something that is only going to last forty minutes, especially since you didn’t get to videotape it and at least re-live it or anything for the rest of your days.
I can see Elliot Spitzers, Warren Buffetts, and Michael Eisner’s (and if rumor has it true, Keith Olberman’s and Bill Mahr’s—-big time in Mahr’s case) rewarding himself with a high-end call girl who is 22 and-in-her prime a couple of nights a week. Blowing 1500 bucks to have her stay all night while he has her in every-which-way he can think of is nothing to these men financially………………..they can afford to blow 100K a year on “entertainment”. The rest of us can’t. There are too many women out there who are 5’s and 6’s who like sex and are happy to have it with you for free.
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There are four kinds of dancing you’ll see guys do at common events like clubs or weddings. I’ll call them by their proper technical terms:
1) The Narcissistic Epileptic: making various strange but not necessarily unattractive movements in rhythm with the music by one self
2) The No-Touchie-Touchie Couples’ Electricution: dude and chick (or plurar numbers of one or both) pretends he’s a snake beign charmed by the DJ’s music into making strange movements opposite his partenr(s)
3) The Clothed Copulation: fucking classless and gross, unless drunk, in which case it’s fun. I believe some call lit “freaking.” More often seen at clubs than at weddings.
4) The Twirl-the-Girl-Thingie: the only kind of dancing I see any point in engaging in. Move to the beat while confidently moving your girl about, spinning her in place, twirking her out and back to ya, etc.
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I note Roissy’s responses adhere to the 5th Commandment of Poon.
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4) The Twirl-the-Girl-Thingie: the only kind of dancing I see any point in engaging in. Move to the beat while confidently moving your girl about, spinning her in place, twirking her out and back to ya, etc.
Unfortunately most white guys aren’t good at that either. They think they look like Fred Astaire, gracefully moving their girl out on the floor, but instead have her crashing into other people, fling her out into the floor like a maniac, or just generally misreading her signals and bumping into her more often than not.
White guys are by far the worst dancers comparing race/sex. But for those few white guys that can dance, and look good doing it, they can write their own ticket with almost any woman that they choose.
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“Actually I’ve seen more than a few. My profession puts me in frequent contact with dance floors, so I should know.”
—having been to enough clubs in NYC–and non-gay ones at that—means I know that ain’t true.
“Tiga is not gay, but possibly bi.”
—-bi is gay with a publicist.
Dude’s definitely gay. Just the name says it all.
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I’ve heard the Mahr/Olbermann thing too.
Didn’t they do a study where liberal men were much more likely to frequent prositutes than conservative men?
Maybe these guys don’t respect women at all, seeing as they can’t convince one to sleep with them despite agreeing with 99% of their beliefs (especially the UnHoly Grail of Abortion).
Liberal guys seem to be cranky whiners as a whole. Mahr and Olbermann are the avatars.
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“Howard Roark
White women are slightly better dancers than white men, as opposed to blacks and latinos, where both genders can dance. Indians and Asians can also dance slightly better than the white male. ”
ahaahaahahahahh
So that is why woman say I dance like a black guy. This shit is to funny.
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omg lurker you actually answered that this shit is killing me.
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There are too many women out there who are 5’s and 6’s who like sex and are happy to have it with you for free.
In the case of my lazy ass, the problem is that it’s easier to masturbate to the mid-ranking women in porn who meet my fetishes and body preferences than deal with the entire mess of trying to meet, attract, and maintain female interest to the point of sexual activity.
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White guys excel at country-style dancing: line dancing and square dancing, where there are clearly established roles and rules (much like traditional white society).
Hip hop culture has marginalized country-type dancing and made it seem dated (which it is), but years ago country dancing was intergral to much of the US’ white culture.
Here’s an example from the Kings of Leon’s “King of the Rodeo” video:
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“on March 20, 2009 at 2:16 pm lurker
“The finest men are on the dance floor; period. ”
—Sara, many men dance because they need to dance because they are inherently NOT fine.
They are ugly and gay and in the closet (Usher), ugly and straight (Fred Astaire) or scrawny, large nosed (Timberlake) or unremarkablly normal or perhaps even a bit dorky (Chris Brown, Gene Kelly). Many male dancers are also short dudes who need to compensate for the lack of height by substituting a skill.
An tall, attractive man with game in an urban environment has no need to dance–he can get girls without it. Take a good look at the faces of men who can dance and you will find men who definitely need to dance to get laid (unless they are gay and out of the closet, in which case they are just women).”
God Dammit.
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White guys are awesome at the “Twirl the Girl Thingie” too, as long as they are confident and have practiced it a bit (either in their early youth or at home with their girlfriend).
Hip hip dancing is cool when black people do it. But with white people — but unless you do it really well, a white guy shouldn’t do it. It looks stupid when he does it. White girls look skanky when they do it.
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“When you live in a country where eating a cupcake or burger is a sin to some, you can bet hookers would be considered taboo.”
Where is eating a cupcake considered a sin???
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The Clothed Copulation
Oh, come on PA, this one is fun all the time. I’m not much into dating teenagers, but if 19 year old girls were born for anything it was this.
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😉
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How about if you like to dance, then dance?
Does it really bother you whether some else can or cannot dance?
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“A big wedding is throwing away alot of your labor (it takes time to make money, therefore when you throw money away, you are throwing away the ’stuff’ that life is made of—-namely, time). Not very long ago, as other commenters have pointed out, when two people decided to share their lives together and build a family with each other, and accept each other’s family as in-laws, they just went to one of the churches that either of them attended, and had a small wedding that didn’t last but maybe half-an-hour. No songs blaring over stereo systems, no “programs”, any of that jazz. “Weddings as showBUSINESS” is a relatively recent phenomenon. It truly wastes the couple’s money, but is an opportunity for the female to show off “status” to other females, friends and rivals (who often aren’t there) alike. ”
Dissagree woman who are virgins demand this big wedding. Where I go basically a wedding a day, 100’s of people, music, food togethernes. A big deal to get married. Who is really having these big weddings today?
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Warning:
Little hyper today new woman came into the work fold 6 foot tall amazon chick. Hot body tits ass. 2nd woman who has actually made my will crumble a little over here. I will move to the 7th level of reaching supreme iron will with this one over the next year and 2 months of no sex (9 months left).
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Don’t know who Tiga is, don’t really care but I do know that Lurker quoted Sex and the City up in this thread. Now that shit is gay.
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DF, no shit, its a gay show. But writing is good and charlotte is hot. I can only apologize for liking it so much
all women look skanky dancing hip hop.
white guys who dance hip hop well get shit if they’re not the best ever; black guys can be so-so and get a free pass. Watch will smith dance at the end of *hitch* (crappy rom com I know) and you’ll see the fresh prince has no moves now.
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gunslinger
Why can’t you have sex for two yearS?
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Year and two months. I live under puritan laws from a free country lol (if they had hookers available I probably would use them). Plus my own moral code doesn’t allow me to cheat (mistress style would have to allow myself to be gamed or game woman) while my woman is not present. Work in iraq.
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KasseyK
You’re right of course babe.
And you have lots of fans here, have no doubt.
You hottie.
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meh, she has fans bc every pic of hers shows her rack. lucky i’m a leg man who likes smart women
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Here in some parts of Texas dancing is a big part of dating. Country dancing is king. As a man you learn how to dance, that is what the ladies expect.
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PA —
You can put me down for the “clothed copulation” too.
Though I probably wouldn’t do that with the mother of my children. Or the intended mother. At least once she became intended.
But with sluts, oh yeah! It’s part of the full slut experience.\
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Anonymous–To the anon who singled me out (along with someone else who yammered about wedding who was definitely not me)–I am not into big weddings. I am not into weddings period. I have been with the same guy for almost a decade and have told him since day 1 that for me, semi-eloping is the best option. Invite closest family and friends and do it in a small way.
Believe me–the whole big wedding thing is not what I want…and I would never spend that kind of money on a party. I am broke. That money would go into savings for a life.
Dougjn–Roissy’s readers tend to despise me. I’m used to it. Yes, I am sensitive so that is why I rarely post here–but I am still used to it. Sad…but you come to a women hating site–no matter how nice you are–if you are a woman, you will be hated on here. I should have known better.
Firepower–Wow, thanks again for insulting me. What I did to you, I am not sure. And apologies for having one photo where you can see my boobs. Ironically, I am not really known as a “boob” girl so that is kind of funny.
I also happen to have great legs, long and shapely–but I guess since you think I am stupid or whatever you think–you will continue to find me repulsive. That’s cool. I’m not your 10 or your 9 or your 8 or your 4. To each their own.
And I could insult you and go out of my way to hurt your feelings…but as a nice person…I do not feel the need to do that.
But as usual, someone here (this time you even though I have been more than kind to you) has to “put me in my place” and make me feel like shit.
Just plain mean. And for what reason? Done. I’m hurt. Mission accomplished Firepower. Can you enjoy your weekend now?
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I’m not your 10 or your 9 or your 8 or your 4.
UltraBetaMode: I think you’re really pretty. You’re an 8 to me. 🙂
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Expensive weddings are just a way for the Sisterhood to impoverish the father of the bride so he can’t buy a new, younger wife.
Ain’t rocket science.
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Firepower —
You and me have some settlin to do. Meet me out back son.
I like KasseyK. She’s girly and refreshing. She’s not feminist harpy. She’s also at least a 7 from what I’ve seen, which is admittedly never full face or anyway full face in a large pic.
What’s wrong with you?
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dougjn–My about me section has me full face in all three pictures. Not that they are anything great (they aren’t) but at least they are straight on-this is me-photos in pretty close-up.
I like to have people know who they are talking to, whether they find me pretty or hideous, its always nice to put a face to a name.
Either way…thanks for having my back. I got yours too.
DA–You are really kind DA. Thank you. 🙂
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KassyK–
None of the any kind of alpha that I’ve seen on here hate women KasseyK. Quite a few of the betas have a lot of seething resentment bottled up though, it’s true, and feel permission here for perhaps the first time in their lives to let that out.
There is a sort of superiority over women thing here that’s widely shared including among the alphas. You know KasseyK that there are endless female groups and sites that do that same thing only often much more so — and further they have softer but incessant support from out mass media.
It’s confidence building KasseyK. Just dish back at types like Firepower. Well you did, but try not to be hurt.
Hell, I’ll defend you, when what you say is defensible, and even if I disagree with you, if someone or several are piling on. I’ll round up a possey even. You sort of predate PA’s active time here I think, I mean when you posted quite a bit, but I imagine we can get him on board, and others.
I’d love to have you back girlfriend. (I mostly read you by backreading the blog so we may not have talked.)
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KassyK–
Those photos look really an 8 KassyK, and couldn’t possibly be less than a 7. Lots of gamers like to try to build cred by getting ridiculous about the numbers they place on girls others are looking at, while really internally having one about 1 notch higher than what they downplay.
So there are guys who will probably go and say 7. But I say 8.
Which is high enough for me any ole day girl. We’re into who you are territory for sure, far as I’m concerned. Though I’m too old for you, I suspect. Unfortunately.
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dougjnn–Thank you. I really appreciate it. And you are right–many of the Alphas and writers of these blogs would never be cruel out of nowhere to someone. It does tend to be bitter betas with massive anger issues. Its sad to me…because I try to be nice to everyone…and its constantly a struggle to accept that quite a few people have no interest in being nice back.
And I agree with you–I think the women’s groups who bash on men are just as bad as men who hate on women. I think some men suck and some women suck. But there are still some good women and good men left…and its nice to see that there are people like you who know that.
The fact that you would potentially help someone who was being ganged up on (even though this comment section was not bad–I have dealt with much crueler situations in the past–a lot of why I stay away), it probably the most Alpha thing I have witnessed around these parts in a long time.
Standing up for yourself, helping others that are down, that is really cool.
Thank you. 🙂
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KassyK
Well if the others won’t be your friend, I will. 😉
Of course they could really like you and are just throwing out negs.
By the way, my mother has a dress just like the one in your photo.
Christ this sounds so beta. Time to go.
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KassyK sought out a player who had a blog kind of like this always talked about pumping and dumping woman and lost and became a pump and dump in between that “Same guy for a decade”. So yea you can kind of see her being the poster child for what a beta gets at the end of it all. I am not impressed.
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KassyK–
Thank you in return.
So will you do me a favor?
Will you TRY coming back some? I’ve got your back.
I love your voice here. We could use you. Badly, I think.
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Gunslinger–
From what I’ve seen KassyK would be most any higher beta’s dream come true. Well if the personalities meshed. Of course she reached for an alpha. She’s hot. I’ve seen nothing to indicate she’s gone on slut city.
If you think any hot girl who’s not herself a committed religious fundamentalist is not going to go and be with an alpha or two at some point in her dating life, and yeah maybe do it once while still in a not living together relationship that’s long in the tooth, you’re dreaming.
She seems like really, really good marriage material to me. Again from what I’ve seen. Including for a higher beta, though of course she wants an alpha. How about you higher betas learn some, no make that a lot, of game? The right kind of game. Game to get a hot good girl, considering the times, like KassyK.
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“It does tend to be bitter betas with massive anger issues. Its sad to me…because I try to be nice to everyone…and its constantly a struggle to accept that quite a few people have no interest in being nice back.”
These guys were probably trying to be nice to you but you sought out a guy who had mostly had one night stands with woman who talked about game. You did not seek out a nice guy to have sex with. With all the “alpha” guys in the 100’s it is the “nice” woman like you that are left for the other guys. These “nice” woman like you have had sex with the “alpha” and consider themselves deserving of some wedding when they offer what damaged goods they have left to the beta. Other than that sure your nice.
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Of course if you did you’d become an alpha, and KassyK could be happy too.
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Gungslingergregi–
When are you going to get it through your skull that women are not attracted to guys without sex appeal to them who are trying to be nice to them. In fact, if they presume to press that beyond friendship they are often, quite literally, repulsed and disgusted by them.
On the other hand most women would love a devestatingly sexy man whose subtly and sophisticatedly dominant outside the bedroom, and full on dominant in it, to be really nice to them also. Which doesn’t mean in any way submissive to them. (A little hint of change up can also be very sexy, so long as it’s clearly playing against type.) It’s more like taking care of them, defending them.
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Out of here. Things to do.
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Gunslingergregi–
Whoa. You have it completely wrong. I was broken up with my boyfriend for a year when I dated that “player”. And I did not EVER go after him. He actively came after me…and it took months before I agreed to go out with him. So please just get your facts straight.
And just so you know…we dated exclusively for almost 2 months–with him not dating ANYONE else. I never asked him for that–he just didn’t date anyone else.
I would never in a million years actively pursue a player.
Calling me damaged goods just proves you don’t know me or the “player”. For his own sake, I will not go on and tell you all the things he has said and done for me throughout the years…I will let you all continue to worship these PUAS and think they never fall for a girl or treat her well–when that is just not the case.
Turns out…my boyfriend is not a beta. Never was. If you knew him or me, you would know that. He is a great guy and that is what I look for in a man…for them to be a great guy.
And I do not sleep around. EVER. Please dear gd do not ever put me in that boat.
And also–if being “damaged goods” means we break up for a year and I literally only dated TWO guys in that entire year…then maybe you should be picking your bride out of the Fundamentalist Mormon Church.
I am nowhere near an Alpha chaser…nor a Beta hater…nor a whore.
So please…get your story straight before you start hating on me.
dougjnn–Thank you again for having my back, without even knowing the story. I don’t even know what else to say to express the gratitude I have for how strong and kind you are with your thoughts and your words.
Thank you.
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KassyK would be nice to hear from your perspective on that. Maybe I am being harsh.
Do you think it was helpfull or hurtfull to the future relationship with your man that you went with the player and developed “feelings”?
Do you think the experience made you a better woman for you future man who you will be spending your “life” with?
What do offer a man at this point in your life gearing toward the future?
Would it be possible for you to make a descision to love the man you end up with for the rest of your life or do you already have someone from the past who you will love for the rest of your life irregardless of who you are with?
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Jeez, lay off KassyK.
I hate to play the cliche chivalrous role here, but KassyK hasn’t done anything to warrant any hate. I’m not getting this. If anything, her blog is pretty neutral, with a lot of TV postings, not at all feminist or man-hating.
As someone who gets a lot of hate in the real world where I do high-profile writing, I can attest this is no fun and people are full of shit who do this.
I also think this kind of hate stems from jealousy — a lot of men who can’t get attractive women hate them. No amount of game will save you from that, people.
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Chuck —
I think Lehuster is right. Gays predominate wedding planning, etc. because weddings, fashion, stuff like that is a status competition for women. The Wedding itself is for women only. Not for the groom, who is mostly just a living prop.
As to why women like/love the gays? The find them unthreatening men who don’t desire them, hence the sort of attitude that say Posh Spice exhibits. [Famous for saying she despised every straight guy except her husband, and preferred gay men.] If you are halfway attractive as a woman, you deal with unwanted male desire ALL the time.
Hence the preference for gays who possess more spatial ability on average than women while having no sexual desire for women.
If women could turn every non-Alpha guy gay they would immediately. I even understand WHY. But it’s not a healthy attitude.
Heck look at the predominance of the status-display shows on WE, Oxygen, Lifetime, TLC etc about Bridezillas and so on. A LOT of daily female life is based on status. Male life too, but to a lesser extent (though you could argue that was changing).
It remains to be seen how a deep recession will affect these status displays. I suspect a lot of big weddings get curtailed.
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It is interesting how in life it is a lot of times ironic to what you would think it would be. Boggles my mind is all.
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An O m e g a is Promoted.
To anyone who has read my comments about my two o m e g a male friends, I’m happy to say that “Mike” is no longer an o m e g a.
Not sure what he jumped to. But last summer, he signed up for the gym I work out at and it changed things around for him. As you may recall, I had described him in the past as being a late-30s, tall, on the chubby side portly nerd-techie type. Smoked too much pot and had a wierd personality that grated on guys’ nerves. I wasn’t friends with him “directly,” but through my other o m e g a friend “Ace.”
Long story short: he lost his weight through hours spent in spin classes. Got a broader chest than belly now, thanks to weightlifting. Dresses, well, grooms himself, slicks his hair back, and wears just a touch of bling. Oh yeah, and he’s banging a chick. She lives two states away so he drives to visit her on weekends, she’s a FOB (but good looking). Most importantly, he carried himself vith visible confidence, in a laid-back sort of way that greatly reduces his annoying “old bachelor” quirks.
Now I just gently nudge him toward being smart enough to not fall in love with this chick. Play it cool. Keep flirting with girls at work, keep going out with them to happy hour. (He and Ace work together at a hothouse kind of place.)
Just came back from having a couple of brews with him after our workouts. Ace, alas, mewls around asking him if his paramour from two states away has any friends.
Two guys in an unhappy situation, exiting their youth. One is doing somethign about it, with progressive success. The other one isn’t.
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PA get ace to Mexico stat. “we are losing him. we are losing him” “clear”
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Ace gets laid plenty (via professionals). His problem is that he is letting things detoriarate through bitterness and neglect of his health. He looks like shit. And it’s a bummer. He was my first friend in the US, when the teacher sat me next to him in junior high school and I had him teach me all the cusswords in English.
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I just stumbled across this article, and knew exactly where to come vent. What a bunch of insufferable, ungrateful whiners! Of course I am talking about dissatisfied married women. And the writer didn’t even come up with any conclusions, except to lay her problems at men’s feet.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1162263/They–hard-women-happy.html
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Default User–Thank you. There is nothing beta in what you said! If a compliment makes someone feel special–that’s a great thing. Especially after a rush of hate. Thank you. 🙂
Days of Broken Arrows–Your chivalry is not cliche in the least bit and I appreciate it, 100%.
A few of you guys…including dougjnn, manage to exude confidence, intelligence, and kindness in your comments and that is always really great to experience.
Again, thank you…I try not to provoke hate…but love…but sometimes I guess its inevitable that someone will want to bring you down.
Gunslingergregi–I would actually enjoy talking to you about this more offline–I don’t really want to bring my boyfriend or the ex I am still friends with onto a public comment section. It is their private business as well.
But I can say that even though I developed feelings for the guy I dated while my boyfriend and I were broken up…it it did not in any way affect the love I have and have always had for my guy.
He was my first love at 20 years old…and he remains to this day, the man I love, respect, and care for.
The other man is someone I have maintained a really great friendship with and I feel genuine affection and care for him in that way. He has his way of life and I have mine and we have meshed that really well in our friendship.
I don’t think anything new was brought to the table when my boyfriend and I got back together besides some maturity on my end. I was single purposely for almost 7 months without one date because I needed to discover in myself what it is I wanted and could give.
If I am going to be in a relationship, I don’t want to half ass it–I want to be the most loving girlfriend I can be.
Hope that helped in clearing anything up. 🙂
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“Roissy had a post on a friend of his who used prostitutes. Roissy thought it was beta.
I’m on the fence. On the one hand, its the ultimate beta move: I can’t get a woman to sleep with me, here’s my money.
On the other hand, its alpha: I don’t care about you or your life or your problems; suck me off, do what I say, and leave at the end, you are no more useful to me than a piece of meat.
Thoughts?”
@lurker-
I agree with you here. Think about the movie American Psycho, Christian Bale was definitely alpha and he fucked many prostitutes in an alpha way. It wasn’t that he couldn’t get laid anywhere else by anyone else, he had a girlfriend who he was going to marry who he fucked on numerous occasions. He brought his secretary over to his house and it was obvious that she wanted him and he could have fucked her.
He was fucking that chick on the side who was engaged to one of his co-workers. He regarded himself so highly that he broke it off with his chick. He videotaped the sex he had with the hookers, and fucked one of them in the ass. They seemed to be enjoying it even though they were being paid. Oh and the second time he fucked the prostitute he had another unpaid girl in his house and he got them two to go at it. Then he proceeded to fuck them both.
Perfect example of an alpha male using whores.
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ASDF – That’s yet another example of the cognitive dissonance of the modern female in Western “Civilization.”
Chase the Feminist lie of “You Go Girl, You CAN Have it All!”
No, you can’t.
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Yea that was cool thanks,
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PA think about it like this. The other friend took how long to change not much time right. When Ace wants to change he will. Or he will keep leading his life how he wants. Ironic thing is difference between the same person with nothing and being well on the way to having it all is only about 4 years with some inner effort.
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Haven’t been to a wedding in ages, thank god. But I used to love watching clunky white-kid dancing. Has something changed? Have whitekids gotten even worse at dancing? Have they lost their sense of fun?
Hey, just for kicks — lots of cute whitekids (and a few nonwhites) having a sweetly naughty time moving to the music:
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but for the brevity of your replies it would seem that you were speaking to yourself
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Made Up Story #0245.
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PA —
Your pal Ace desperately needs to find something other than work and girls (probably not going to happen for him) to care about. A hobby in other words. Hey, he could do railfanning. There’s worse hobbies.
ASDF — what stands out in the link is an endless competition for status. which causes unhappiness. Since there can be only a few Posh Spice’s, and most everyone else is not. Ironic too that Posh Spice is shown in the article. Female unhappiness amongst plenty and marriage? That is a huge flag pointing towards status.
Which brings me to my next question.
Isn’t status-obsession mostly a female phenomena?
My sort of back-of-the-envelope guess is that status forms a bigger part of female hierarchies/friendships/society than it does male ones. Male ones being driven by achievement, skill, and toughness, not necessarily status.
For example, a carpenter who boxes part-time as an amateur, or is an aspiring MMA fighter, even if he’s got a beat-to-hell face, can relate on the same level as a lawyer or accountant, relatively “flat” without much gradations. While a housewife even if her husband is important, has less status than a corporate lawyer, and less power among a female circle of acquaintances.
Thoughts?
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The hooker taboo comes from FEMINISTS shaming men in order to mystify women’s vaginas to exert power over men.
In EVERY country where prostitution is legal, women’s attitudes are more respectful toward their men.
I’ll call bullshit on that one, anon.
Prostitution as taboo would have arisen to protect the family unit.
If a bloke can just get laid anytime, anyhow, with no fear of breeding, why on earth would he commit to one woman and offspring?
Prostition is legal here in Melbourne, Oz, and the women are no more respectful towards men than over in your neck of the woods.
Marriage was a way of protecting the precious commodity that was a breeding female all those centuries ago, and if a woman is married to one man, and only sexually active with that man, then there is a very good chance that the children that ensue will be his.
I’m sure the fathers here can attest to the joys of parenting, even if a lot of them don’t get the opportunity to do so as much as they’d like.
A lot of hardcore feminists are all for prostitution because it “empowers” women.
Yeah, sure it does. Like the lass I used to know who lost her job so paid her rent on her back. She was a sad, broken person, who’d been on the game, gone straight, and then went back to it.
Last I heard she was on drugs and going downhill fast.
I’d love to be on a career track like that one.
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Firepower
“I’ll agree with you that the less the friends, the more “bimmy” the bitch. That’s usually bc she’s so fucking hot, other women don’t want to be around her ime.”
It can be true that she is hot, but usually she is isn’t. I think this is such a myth that a women with no girlfriends are victims of female evilness, they are not. and not and not. They are just not friendly towards girls, but very friendly with guys, and guys can’t see the other side of the coin as she is nice to guys.
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anon
I wonder if “bridgegirl” thinks the same thing Sara? Except YOU Sara, are here on his blog all the time telling him, y’know, he’s not all-that and everything. Its kinda unconvincing on your part. It looks like you are merely infatuated-beyond-belief to the rest of us. You are not going to even dent his ego, I assure you, anymore that Jennifer Anniston could dent Brad Pitt’s ego.
You just made my point. Thank you.
Gunslinger
An tall, attractive man with game in an urban environment has no need to dance–he can get girls without it.
We come from two different worlds, gunslinger. Have you ever imagined that a man might dance for the sheer joy of it, regardless of whether it gets him laid or not? For Christ’s sake. kf
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Whiskey – Ace is all about his hobbies. Work to him is a necessary nuisance. He is a video gamer (always has tons of male friends over playing games, including a few alpha guys he’s friends with — he has a great “guy personality”) He also has a hobby similar to railfanning which he does socially with his lesser-beta and sometimes alpha male friends.
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thursday:
You hold the bride and the groom to similar standards of “whoring it up”?
seriously?
Aren’t you a PUA?
The cognitive dissonance here is just killing me.
—
Also, morbid curiosity drives me to ask whether you are named “Thursday” after Henry Miller’s cock.
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Kass, it is ok, baby. I am damaged, too. You are in good company.
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KassyK, if you are still here.
My original post was kind of flippant. I had only scanned the previous posts and missed some of the hostility.
The reference to “beta” was to my attempts at humor regarding negs (a frequent topic here) and the “your dress looks like my mom’s” line (this is supposed to be a killer neg).
Having to explain you own humor is most assuredly “beta.” So you see I was right, but that of course makes me “alpha” (God, this stuff gets difficult sometimes).
Anyway…
Regarding the “beta” hostility, you have to see where they are coming from.
An attractive woman gets plenty of reminders that she is an attractive and sexual being. Indeed, even a merely average woman will get attention such as flirting and pickup attempts. While such attention is not always wanted, it does provide a small spike to her feelings of well-being (it is nice to be wanted).
I believe that the average woman is unaware of all those little well-being spikes she receives. It becomes part of her life and thus unnoticed at a conscious level. Besides the obvious pickups, there are lots of little interactions that remind her of her attractiveness. There is the obvious flirting, the lingering look, the shy smile of the man that fixes the photocopier, the offers of help with some problem she is having, or the large (and perhaps slightly lecherous) grin of the guy he gets her morning coffee with a “and how are YOU today?” There a many small ways a man signals that he finds a woman attractive. Even if he does make such desire explicit, she receives the message that she is attractive and wanted.
Now imagine a world where you are never hit on, never flirted with, never receive those shy smiles or large (perhaps slightly lecherous) grins. Imagine a world where you are invisible as an attractive sexual being. Imagine a world where you never receive implicit, never mind explicit, messages that you are attractive. Imagine a world where your expressions of interest in another are always rebuffed. Imagine a world where one of your most important needs (physical and emotional connection) is completely unmet.
A woman in this situation will have plenty of support. She will have friends and society behind her. It will be seen as much the fault of society, or men, than anything lacking in her. When she complains many will sympathize. Given their natural protective instinct, even men will sympathize, indeed even “beta” men will sympathize.
A man in this position will not have the support of other men. He will be seen as a loser, a pussy, a fag, a wimp, or the fairly polite “beta.” If he complains he will be seen as a whiner and his complaints ignored. In any case, shame prevents most of these men from speaking up. Shame and frustration are a fairly toxic combination, completely debilitating to the spirit. None of this excuses bad behavior, but may explain it.
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Default User — That’s a powerful evocation of the beta-dude’s plight.
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Agree with Michael: a very powerful illustration. But everything is what it is for a reason, isn’t it?
Maybe unattractive women are seen in more fatalistic way, as victims of things beyond their control, i.e. their own ugliness. Meanwhile guys are seen as having more control over the factors that affect their attractiveness and thus less deserving of pity.
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A caveat is the unattractiveness of obese women… something they have at least theoretically control over — but the fattie-ubiquity is a relatively recent development.
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Protag Onist:
Made Up Story #0245.
What else?
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Getting back to the issue of elaborate weddings, do not forget that until fairly recent years it was customary for the bride’s parents to pick up most of the cost. No doubt they still bear the largest share even today. In more than a few cases, they see buying a big elaborate wedding for their daughter as a way of showing off to their own friends.
PA – terrific news for your former-last-letter-of-the-Hellenic-alphabet friend.
Peter
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Default User –
A Beta man at least has more control of the situation than an unattractive woman has. He can take an active role, rather than waiting to be sought after.
Peter
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Default User–
I agree with Michael too. That was a very powerful evocation.
Which makes me want to ask YOU a question that I’ve had for some time.
What percentage of men do YOU think, looking around you are some kind of beta or below, versus some kind of alpha? By alpha I don’t me a nightcub or bar pickup wiz only, but guys who can always attract good looking girls, 7s anyway and 6’s easily, and never has to go long between girl friends if he isn’t otherwise too occupied to go out and hunt a little. Let’s restrict this to guys in their twenties. You can also talk about guys single in their thirties separately if you want.
Others here feel free to answer to, but I’m particularly interested in YOUR take.
I don’t think I’ve seen Roissy put any numbers to the percentage of men he thinks are some kind of beta (or omega) and the percentage he thinks are alphas, and the same for women. However I get the impression that he thinks there are roughly twice as many alpha girls as guys, and that the alpha guy percentage is around 10%. Or maybe it’s closer to 15%? One thing I noticed is that while he classifies a female 7 as an alpha (i.e. a girl at a level a male alpha will without much question want to have sex with when he’s stone cold sober, if there aren’t hotter girls around and winnable), he calls a male 7 a higher beta.
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iron/Peter–
Girls can take an active role these days too Peter, and do. First of all if the reason they’re SO unattractive is that they’re fat, they can lose that.
Any girl who’s a four or higher can get regular sex. She just can’t get regular sex from alphas (or usually any from them), and will have trouble attracting a committed long term r with a quality guy, such as a higher beta. Hell even threes who aren’t total fatties probably can.
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Women can take a more active role today, but even so, it’s still easier and more socially acceptable for a man to approach women than vice-versa.
Peter
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Sara,
“Gunslinger
An tall, attractive man with game in an urban environment has no need to dance–he can get girls without it.
We come from two different worlds, gunslinger. Have you ever imagined that a man might dance for the sheer joy of it, regardless of whether it gets him laid or not? For Christ’s sake. kf”
I only said the god dammit in that one as it came right after my thing that I can dance. Throw some metallica on and lets mosh. The below was from Lurker,
lurker
“The finest men are on the dance floor; period. ”
—Sara, many men dance because they need to dance because they are inherently NOT fine.
They are ugly and gay and in the closet (Usher), ugly and straight (Fred Astaire) or scrawny, large nosed (Timberlake) or unremarkablly normal or perhaps even a bit dorky (Chris Brown, Gene Kelly). Many male dancers are also short dudes who need to compensate for the lack of height by substituting a skill.
An tall, attractive man with game in an urban environment has no need to dance–he can get girls without it. Take a good look at the faces of men who can dance and you will find men who definitely need to dance to get laid (unless they are gay and out of the closet, in which case they are just women).”
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Hey, whatever happened to the other fun made-up post, the one about the hot chicks slathering self-tanner on each other’s outer labia?
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Anyway, this chick Roissy is talking to is obviously not Quality; a real feminine femme girl would enjoy helping her future sister-in-law look beautiful for her brother, even if it meant spending a month of Sundays sitting in bridal ateliers.
And she wouldn’t know anything about hockey, either.
What next, Roissy? Chicks with Adam’s apples and big rough hands?
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I thought the no-black-at-wedddings rule died a long time ago, at least in the chic urban circles we’re talking about here.
Too bad, too– wedding should be about new life and beauty, not looking skinny and professional and fuckable. It’s not just another cocktail party, for pete’s sake.
When my sons get married, I want to wear a rose-print linen suit and a cute hat…. but first I have to finish potty-training them.
Dang.
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Whiskey:
This status mongering strikes me as a recent development, perhaps stemming from the cultural changes of the past 40 years.
I’m from the upper middle class, just like these women, but I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s which means that my mother grew up in the 50’s and 60’s. Just about everybody in my peer group had a mother who was a housewife, or who at most worked part time, while the fathers all had better jobs that supported the family. A mother who was a lawyer or anything like that was unheard of. And the ones who did work didn’t lord it over the ones who didn’t, and vice versa.
There seemed to be a lot more satisfaction amongst our mothers than the ones in that article. They all enjoyed their roles as wives and mothers, and enjoyed the spare time that this afforded them. If they got bored, they’d read a book, garden, exercise etc. They wouldn’t plot affairs and divorces. In fact, I only know of one mother who got a divorce out of “boredom”, and this was largely after the kids had grown up, and I suspect she will come to regret it.
The women in that article didn’t even know what they wanted, except to be constantly stimulated. That is an extremely child-like attitude.
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hater cunt:
Hey, whatever happened to the other fun made-up post, the one about the hot chicks slathering self-tanner on each other’s outer labia?
i write my posts on a take it or leave it basis. if it’s proof you seek, you will not get it.
why?
because you are nothing to me.
Anyway, this chick Roissy is talking to is obviously not Quality
it just kills you that a guy like me dates quality girls.
a real feminine femme girl would enjoy helping her future sister-in-law look beautiful for her brother, even if it meant spending a month of Sundays sitting in bridal ateliers.
that’s something a loser with no life would say.
What next, Roissy?
your doom.
Chicks with Adam’s apples and big rough hands?
she has skin as soft as lily petals.
When my sons get married, I want to wear a rose-print linen suit and a cute hat…. but first I have to finish potty-training them.
no one here gives a shit about your snot-nosed kids.
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No, I think the women in that article are using complaining as a way to draw attention to their own status. “My husband is always working!” really means “My husband is a Really Important Guy!”
“My nanny is soooo disorganized!” means “And we have a nanny. What about you?”
It’s bad form to joyfully discuss one’s good fortune in life. Reeks of boasting.
So the women complain to each other instead.
The author of that article just doesn’t come from a background that allows her to understand this implicitly.
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Aw, Roissy’s all mad now. 😦
I cannot understand why. Maybe he loves the hockey girl!
Men never get mad if you talk smack about women they care nothing for.
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Anyway, I hope you do find a nice Quality Girl. I jest about her Adam’s apple and oddly masculine approach to dress-shopping.
And they lived Happily Ever After!
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dougjnn:
I don’t think I’ve seen Roissy put any numbers to the percentage of men he thinks are some kind of beta (or omega) and the percentage he thinks are alphas, and the same for women.
alpha males are ~20%. this includes lesser alphas and greater betas on the cusp as well.
the subset of alpha males who can score 7 and above pussy on a regular basis without ruts or downtimes are ~10%.
lumpenbeta are ~60%.
omegas and dregs (those for whom pussy rarely if ever blesses them) round out the final 20%.
alpha females are, as you said, more numerous than alpha males, simply because pussy is always in higher demand than sperm.
alpha females are basically 7.5s and above. in the age range from 15-25, they are ~30%. these are the girls who can score sex AND LTRs on a fairly regular basis with greater beta and alpha males.
lesser alpha and beta females are ~50%. these girls need to take care of their looks to ensure male attention. this is the group that suffers a lot of pump and dumping because they are always striving to date out of their league. They can get love and sex, but they also suffer a lot more indignity and heartbreak than the top 30% of women.
lesser beta and omega females round out the bottom 20%. these are the super fatties, fuglies, cougars, old and deformed women. they either settle for low quality males or they go sexless for long stretches of time. they rarely try very hard to “date up” because they have been hurt or ignored by men so much that they have lost the will to shoot for the stars.
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Hey, he could do railfanning. There’s worse hobbies.
Hey, railfanning isn’t that bad!
Regarding the “beta” hostility, you have to see where they are coming from.
As a beta, I understand their plight, but somehow, I’ve managed to avoid much of the bitterness (except for the issues with Wellesley Queen), and instead, I simply ended up somewhat depressed. I’d imagine that the betas who aren’t bitter may end up in that camp. We may have a smile on our face and a cheery personality, but in the shadows, we may remind ourselves of our inability to find or attract a girl.
Mind you, I must note that at first glance, beta males may get some initial support from friends and family, but as the complaining endures, eventually friends, both male and female, will grow tired of the whining.
A caveat is the unattractiveness of obese women… something they have at least theoretically control over
In our private conversations, non-date has routinely stated that the reason her friends have poor relationship prospects is due to being overweight. Of course, she’ll never tell me why my chances for a relationship are low.
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On men dancing: I notice in clubs that the guys with all the dance moves are often “dance nerds” who dance in the corner showing off their latest moves to other guys, oblivious to the women. I don’t think theyre gay, just think they are like other nerd types that get so into a specialized hobby that they lose interest in general socializing… they don’t seem to be getting any.
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omw
If you have sons of a very young age that means that you spend a lot of time every day of your life relating to the male sex from a position of unquestioned, unilateral power. The little ones depend on you for survival and the husband/partner is no doubt always on the defensive. Unless you work seriously outside the home, you are used to being an absolute monarch when it comes to dealing with men.
Therefore, you might have forgotten that grown-up men who live freely outside of your fiefdom have no reason to fear your taunts.
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I think ASDF and OMW are both right. ASDF on the issue of innate childishness and status-mongering as immaturity, and OMW on the pointed comments to show how important the women are.
On the subject of beta male resentment towards women, well of course, but an important caveat MUST be put:
ANYTHING an Alpha male does, is excused by some women, and MOST things Alpha males do, are excused by MOST women.
Meanwhile, beta males must act “sexless” and subservient to women in order to reach approval. A “fabulous gay man” in other words (and thus the roots of otherwise inexplicable anti-gay sentiment among men).
Examples would include Drew Peterson (college girls all over him, has a new much younger fiancee), Bill Clinton, John Edwards, OJ, Chris Brown, and Sean Penn. Heck Charlie Sheen for that matter. All Alpha males doing reprehensible things that are ignored, excused, justified, or admired by various numbers of women.
The only problem with beta men as far as women is concerned is that they are indeed beta. Their resentment would be entirely accepted by most women, and excused, as long as they are Alpha.
This is a hard thing for men to understand, and it tends to make women, or most of them, look particularly bad to most men who understand it. Since men are not regarded for what they do but who they are. Which is pretty hard for most men to change. Becoming socially dominant in circles that impress women requires huge mental shifts, practice, and probably high amounts of testosterone.
It’s easier for a woman to get implants than it is for a man to become an Alpha. And just as the different reaction to a woman pre- and post-implants will devalue her opinion of men, so too will the knowledge of men that only Alpha matters to women’s view of them.
It’s a system designed to produce in the end, various King of the Mountain type actions, a society that’s akin to “Highlander” (in the end, there can only be a few). Drastically reduced male cooperation, constant competition, undermining competitors, ruthless race to Alpha. [This is why most successful societies have elaborate institutions designed to mediate and control male and female sexuality and behavior so that it does not tear apart cooperation in out-of-control mating struggles.]
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Oh, good lord. I’ll try to play nicer, then. Who’da thunk you boys would have such sensitive psyches?
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owm
Most men come to a site like this to either learn something or show-off something they believed they know.
Quite a few women come to such sites and seem mainly eager to stick emotion-tipped needles into what they hope are areas of others vulnerability.
Each to their own, I guess. I mean, we are all on vacation, in a way. But this display might go a long way to revealing why virtually every large scale innovative project/scientific advance has been the result of a bunch of guys working cooperatively together while womenfolk have really never pulled it off.
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Default User,
Roissy and others divide “betas” into two types: the greater and lesser. May I suggest a third division – the beta who really is a nice guy, as opposed to the beta who pretends to be?
The former will get sympathy for their romantic struggles from people like friends and parents. It’s the latter who find themselves reviled and shunned. Now I’m sure it’s possible, as you imply, sort of, that men may start out as nice betas and after a life of rejection, become nasty aggressive betas.
But I don’t think it happens that often. I’ve known many a nice beta who wouldn’t dream of turning nasty in the face of rejection. Many, perhaps most, learn how to work a little game and achieve a little career success, and so manage to nab a pretty girl after all. Others sigh with resignation and may occasionally allow themselves a grumble or two on the internet.
Only a few betas become genuinely nasty in real time. But I think in general that the nasty betas – a minority, I repeat – appear to have been born that way: demanding, difficult, unpleasant, and self-pitying, convinced that women are out to get them and longing to do the same in return. Unfortunately, these boys tend to confuse this kind of nastiness with being an Alpha ***hole (very different; alpha ***holes have a sense of humour), so that they wonder why they still can’t find a woman even when they behave rudely to us. It’s those betas who may turn dangerous.
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Days of Broken Arrows
I hate to play the cliche chivalrous role here, but KassyK hasn’t done anything to warrant any hate. I’m not getting this. If anything, her blog is pretty neutral, with a lot of TV postings, not at all feminist or man-hating.
As someone who gets a lot of hate in the real world where I do high-profile writing, I can attest this is no fun and people are full of shit who do this.
I also think this kind of hate stems from jealousy — a lot of men who can’t get attractive women hate them. No amount of game will save you from that, people.
May I? LOL #1 Kassy K. is literally begging for the abuse. She comes to a site where the name of the game is “where pretty lies perish” and ugly lies prevail and she expected…..what? She said as much, so if she gets hated on here, she gets no sympathy from me. She’s playing wounded bird game, but inside I’ll bet she’s got a lot more steel than you realize. I’m guessing enneagram type two–The Jewish Mother–because here comes the guilt trips for hurting her tender feelings and not realizing the virginal goodness of all her intentions.
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In closing….ya’ll can hate on me cuz I can take it!
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omw
For once there’s considerable insight from you instead of just snipping. Women do often play status games through what they complain about. As well, women simply love to complain. If they’re not radiantly happy, many women are complaining. It’s how they socialize, many of them.
As well consider the author of that piece. She’s jealous. She’s ugly, or the decidedly low side of plain to be charitable, and spend a lot of time as a single mom wishing she were married. She’s making herself and she imagines her readership that’s more like her than not, feel less jealous about much better looking women who snagged much higher earning and higher status men, but making them sound equally dissatisfied. That’s why she interprets the complaining as she does.
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May I suggest a third division – the beta who really is a nice guy, as opposed to the beta who pretends to be?
The former will get sympathy for their romantic struggles from people like friends and parents. It’s the latter who find themselves reviled and shunned.
True, a lot of my female friends, including the wives and girlfriends of my male friends, just could not understand why I didn’t have a girlfriend. I kept hearing things like, “You should be beating them off.”
alpha males are ~20%. this includes lesser alphas and greater betas on the cusp as well.
the subset of alpha males who can score 7 and above pussy on a regular basis without ruts or downtimes are ~10%.
Boy does it feel good to be in that 20%. (I won’t try to fool anyone. My game still has lots of holes in it. I am definitely not in that top 10% of guys.) It is an amazing thing to know in your gut that you deserve to be dating 8+ girls. Dating really attractive women becomes a matter of course, not a super special event.
Take last night. I was having a pretty bad night overall. The club I was at was a sausage fest and, due to the lack of approach opportunities, I was unable to get much momentum going. Yet, somehow I walked out with the phone number of the cutest girl in the place, an adorable little 19 year old quarter Asian chick out for a birthday party with her friends. Of course, I expect a flake. The friends were all cool with me, but the general birthday partyness of the whole thing worked against me getting in any solid comfort. Still, your average beta would not have gotten the number, nor would they have gotten the big smile and cute little girly wave every time she saw me that night. As Natural Tim says, the longer you are in this, the more your bad nights get better.
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Hey, Sara, I just took a quicky enneagram, and came up Type 5 with 9 wing.
The type 5 description was pretty dead-on, I must say. Weird.
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Oh, Doug, you only think I’m being insightful when I say bitchy things about women-in-general.
Women are gold-digging complaining status whores: Insightful!
Women are more complicated than you make them out to be: Hyper PC Feminism!
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dougjnn
Regarding the alpha/ beta rates, I will answer the question this way:
I put the number of men seriously unhappy with their love life (lack of any sexual relationship, or lack of the quality of sex/relationships they need) at 30 percent.
I put the number of men merely satisfied with their love life (mostly by adjusting their expectations) at 60 percent. These are men who are not banging a harem of 10s but have a woman or women in their lives that provide for their emotional and physical needs. They are aware she might not be the hottest thing around, but realize they aren’t either.
I put the number of men completely satisfied (able to score the kind of sex or relationship they want, when they want) at 10 percent.
Some men bring their own unhappiness on themselves. They could be happy with one attractive woman in their life (at a time), but instead they fall for the dream of being a player. The set themselves a goal that is not really theirs, a goal they almost certainly will not achieve.
As we discovered on an earlier post, there is a lot of argument regarding the 5 to 7 range (less over the outer tails). This helps out average men and women. Not every man is competing for your 7, and you are not competing for his. So the average guy may not be banging “super hot models,” but can probably find a woman who does fire his motor and will look good on his arm. This of course works the same way for women.
I would guess that there are more alpha females. This is not due to the imbalance in demand of cock versus pussy; it is due to women being better at game. They are better because there is an entire female infrastructure dealing with this. It starts with those giggly teenage conversations (“he said… and then I said… and then we kissed”), and includes romance books, magazines, etc. Women share a lot more of the details of their encounters than men do. Alpha women will sometimes hang out with non-alpha women, giving them experience of the alpha way (how she reacts, how the men react). Alpha men never hang out with non-alpha guys, so the non-alphas never get that experience.
I would say the alpha/beta percentages for women are similar (not exactly the same given my comment above) to men. Even a super-hot babe still has to close the deal by being pleasant enough to interest Mr. Alpha. Why should Mr. Alpha put up with a beautiful but dull woman when he can have a beautiful and interesting woman? So mere beauty does not lift a woman in to alphaness, she can still screw up. It is true that men’s initial attraction is based mainly on looks, but that alone will not allow her to prevent unsatisfactory relationships (e.g., pump ‘n’ dump).
There are probably more women that are dissatisfied because they are getting the wrong kind of sex (pump ‘n’ dump etc.) compared to men dissatisfied because they are getting no sex.
I think we devalue ourselves as men when we talk about cock (i.e., men) being in less demand than pussy (i.e., women). Women need the attention of men as much as we need the attention of women. The Darwinian, evo-psych stuff does exist, just not at the “tooth and claw” manner that many claim.
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clio:
May I suggest a third division – the beta who really is a nice guy, as opposed to the beta who pretends to be?
there aren’t many betas who pretend to be nice except for those in the minds of women who mistake the betas’ approval-seeking neediness for nastiness.
furthermore, any man who can successfully manipulate his way into a woman’s panties with a pretend niceguy act is actually an alpha. natural betas in their habitat don’t have the social skills to pull off such a high level of manipulation.
which brings me to…
roissy maxim #100: women love demonizing betas as it assuages their warped guilt for not wanting to sleep with the nice, decent, caring, but oh-so-dull lumpenbeta.
The former will get sympathy for their romantic struggles from people like friends and parents.
but not from women.
which is really what the betas want. and in a man’s mind, there’s no better way for a woman to demonstrate her kind regards for him than to spread her legs.
It’s the latter who find themselves reviled and shunned.
don’t be coy, clio. the “latter” are about 80% of the male population. most men are betas and as such are shunned by the majority of women with whom they interact in their daily lives. and by shunned i mean what men take it to mean: sexually shunned. women’s revulsion for betas became quite clear to me every time i played “marry fuck or kill” with a date.
Now I’m sure it’s possible, as you imply, sort of, that men may start out as nice betas and after a life of rejection, become nasty aggressive betas.
But I don’t think it happens that often.
you would be incorrect. but your assumption is quite understandable as you are peering through female-colored glasses. i wrote a post about this very subject:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/woman-hating-betas/
most betas don’t become overtly nasty and aggressive toward women, because it is uncouth for a man to display for all to see his loserness in the sexual market. betas learn to sublimate their nastiness into male-on-male rivalry, white knighting, self-pity, or subtler forms of resentment against women and themselves.
I’ve known many a nice beta who wouldn’t dream of turning nasty in the face of rejection.
the smart ones know better than to wear their hearts on their sleeves.
Many, perhaps most, learn how to work a little game and achieve a little career success, and so manage to nab a pretty girl after all.
yes, eventually most betas find a less-than-stellar girl to marry and watch in seething silence as she gets fat and naggy.
Others sigh with resignation and may occasionally allow themselves a grumble or two on the internet.
grumbling is beta. ripping the soul out of your enemies is alpha.
Only a few betas become genuinely nasty in real time.
actually, the real time outbursts are more often the feral ids of lesser alphas expressing themselves. betas by definition don’t have the moxy or man juice to get genuinely nasty in the moment with a girl. most slink away in humiliation.
But I think in general that the nasty betas – a minority, I repeat – appear to have been born that way: demanding, difficult, unpleasant, and self-pitying, convinced that women are out to get them and longing to do the same in return.
these difficult, unpleasant men you are describing are not betas. they are nasty leser alphas. betas may get nasty behind closed doors, but in the field betas are the ones hanging their heads submissively.
now passive-aggressiveness is a common beta trait, but whether it’s inborn or learned from repeated failure is an open question.
Unfortunately, these boys tend to confuse this kind of nastiness with being an Alpha ***hole (very different; alpha ***holes have a sense of humour), so that they wonder why they still can’t find a woman even when they behave rudely to us. It’s those betas who may turn dangerous.
violent, nasty asshole alphas get more pussy than spiteful betas. humor not required.
and as i’ve also written about, “behaving rudely” is a metric that resides on a relative scale. an alpha male with charisma and charm can afford more rude behavior than a boring beta because women will forgive him his alpha indiscretions.
also, you’re kidding yourself if you think your standard issue beta is more likely to turn violent than either a crazed omega or a lesser alpha with visions of greatness. as i illustrated in my chris brown/rihanna posts, betas don’t possess the sack to turn violent on their women. that is the province of aspiring alpha males, particularly alphas with something to prove or with a psychoskeleton in the closet that haunts them.
fact is, most men who hit women are also pretty shitty to other men.
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Sara I
Oh what rubbish. Bitter rubbish. She’s young and girly and hot. She is a bit of the ingenue / waif type, but that can be and in her case is charming. She’s not that in a master games playing manipulative way that i’ve seen; rather in a genuinely vulnerable one.
As for what did she expect, well she left the site after feeling deeply hurt previously. She came back after some extended period of time to comment in a girly and I thought delightful way about the wedding dress folies that Roissy described. She probably thought it was a safe enough topic, maybe.
She was attacked because some time ago she was very vulnerably self revealing around a very sore point for betas, especially better betas and others who aspire to that — and people also thought it was something other than what it was. I.e. she slept with an alpha player while people thought she was still in a long time relationship with a higher beta bf. In fact she was broken up with her bf. But she did subsequently go back to him – she so much preferred a loyal loving man than a player (even though the player was exclusive and smitten for a time), as she put it. Which shows what a basically one man kind of good girl she is, seems to me. As I said any higher beta’s dream come true, if the personalities mesh. Hell maybe her bf is a lesser alpha by now, don’t know.
People also backed off her right fast.
Betas hate that hot girls like KassyK all want to sleep with alphas and virtually all of them will or do these days when they’re in their twenties. That’s the current American zeitgeist outside of the fundamentalist religious who stay that why in their twenties. Sometimes the order of them doing so isn’t ideal from a beta point of view. Well it’s never ideal from a beta point of view.
Who wants to imagine that the only pretty girls he’ll be able to settle down with will have slept with someone, and probably several she found more thrilling? (And if the girl in question is an out or secret slut, unlike KassyK, a whole trainload.) That’s one of the reasons for traditionally prizing virginity. But that’s not our society, at least in the metropolises. Another good one is that second love is rarely as strong as first love, or anyway as strong as the first intense love. Well there KassyK and her bf do have something very special since it seems he was her first intense love. But yeah she wanted to taste certified full on alpha player fruit, once committed to her at least for a time. There aren’t many hot girls that don’t these days, and most go through a period of tasting a whole lot more of it.
Maybe I have some of this somewhat wrong. But I do like her. In fact I think she’s delightful.
I hope she comes back. I’ll have her back if she does.
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aliasclio
The relative anonymity of the Internet can turn off the “polite switch” in some people. People will say things that they never would in public. Just think of Internet forums as a form of combat for nerds.
I cannot speak to the motivations of posters here, but could understand how a normally nice but frustrated guy could let rip because his “polite switch” was in the off position.
However, I agree with your point regarding nice® versus nice guys.
Remember though, even the nicest man is still a man. He is still capable of aggression and competitiveness.
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Roissy–
If you’re still here, let me ask you another question. Remember I’m older which is why I’d like your take on current twenty somethings.
I’d like to get some idea of your estimation of the percentage of sluts among twenty somethings say by age 29, i) for alpha girls as you describe them or the top 30% of younger girls; ii) for the top half of beta girls, i.e. the next 25%, or girls falling in the say 5.5 to 7.5 range?; and then iii) for the next 25% down, which is what down to 4 or 3.5?
In each case the number of sorta sluts and super sluts. Sorta sluts are what roughly girls with numbers of 30 or more by 29, you tell me; while super sluts are girls whose true numbers are double that and more? I know there are quite a lot of girls with numbers in the hundreds. It’s awfully easy for a slut with a mind to it. Of course the likelihood of such a girl remaining faithful or satisfied by one man in a marriage to anyone strikes me as approaching zero.
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Roissy —
Yeah but don’t you think this leads her to exaggerate? She’s qualifying herself by showing how choosy she is. She’s working on bonding with you and seeking your approval. She might feel a lot happier banging e.g. higher betas than she’s letting on to you. What i’m saying is that while as you know I buy the vast majority of what you say with enthusiasm, and think you’ve got just great insights, I don’t quite buy that there’s such a sharp disjunction between greater betas and alphas. There may be in bar pickup, but I think a lot less in day game etc. No?
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dougjnn:
I’d like to get some idea of your estimation of the percentage of sluts among twenty somethings say by age 29, i) for alpha girls as you describe them or the top 30% of younger girls;
alpha slut % in the city = 50%.
fyi, i consider having had more than 10 partners, including one night stands and FBs, by the age of 29 the cutoff point for sluttitude. this goes for all groups of girls.
ii) for the top half of beta girls, i.e. the next 25%, or girls falling in the say 5.5 to 7.5 range?;
see above.
my impression is that the 4s through 7s are the sluttiest, followed by the 8s. 1s, 2s, 9s, and 10s are the least slutty for reasons having to do with lack of options and too many options respectively.
In each case the number of sorta sluts and super sluts. Sorta sluts are what roughly girls with numbers of 30 or more by 29, you tell me; while super sluts are girls whose true numbers are double that and more?
super sluts with more than 30 lifetime partners are probably 20% in the city.
Yeah but don’t you think this leads her to exaggerate? She’s qualifying herself by showing how choosy she is.
women are more loathe than men to fully express emotions of hatred and disgust, so i don’t think their reactions to the betas was a calculated effort to demonstrate choosiness. after all, she’s already chosen to be on a date with you.
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It is always amusing to see a PUA complain about slutty women. Pot, meet kettle.
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nerd lacking reading comprehension:
It is always amusing to see a PUA complain about slutty women. Pot, meet kettle.
who’s complaining?
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You and everyone else.
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Bridesmaiden sounds ill-humored. She aught to have good fun with all these characters.
In my experience, the underlying, unstated issue with grumpy bridesmaids is the cost.
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autistic tard extraordinaire:
You and everyone else.
prove that i’m “complaining” about sluts.
oh, and proof by assertion is not an acceptable answer.
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Sara I
Yeah! You are the anti-KassyK (or maybe she is the anti-Sara I).
Sappy beta that I am, like you both!
BTW, my guess is that you are a Myers-Briggs “Thinking” type and KassyK is a “Feeling” type. If I had to further guess, I would say that you are ESTJ and she is ESFJ or ESFP.
Your preference for “Thinking” (logical, objective) is why you can “take it.” KassyK’s “Feeling” (subjective, value based) preference makes it harder for her to take it.
Most men here likely have a strong preference for “Thinking.”
About 65 percent of men favor “Thinking.” About 65 percent of women favor “Feeling.” And that explains where the problems begin…
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anony grasped at straws:
Bridesmaiden sounds ill-humored.
projection, it’s what’s for dinner!
She aught to have good fun with all these characters.
she was.
you, otoh, sound like you don’t get enough fun out of life.
ps the word is “ought”.
In my experience, the underlying, unstated issue with grumpy bridesmaids is the cost.
or, you know, the boredom and silliness of it all.
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Myers-Briggs is a test some psychologists made up that is based on their THEORY of personality types. In other words, it’s something someone made up that may or may not be true.
I give it no credit and the fact that idiot HR types use it to screen job applicants proves to me its useless pop psychology.
There are ways machines can look into the human brain to detect things like depression and anxiety — those are scientific, so I’ll give them credence. They called fMRI’s by the way and when they go commercial, it will change everything we know about psychology.
And Sara, considering KassyK’s first comment on this thread was a self-effacing post about dressing as a bridesmaid, that doesn’t qualify as “asking for abuse” in my estimation. And I still think the Betas take their anger out on her because Betas hate women they know are out of their league. I sidestepped this by going into a field that gave me some gravitas; others should think to do the same.
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Days of Broken Arrows
You can look at Myers-Briggs (or other personality tests) as a way of describing observed reality.
There are:
– Extroverts (engaged in, and energized by the outer world)
– Introverts (engaged in, and energized by their inner world
There are:
– Sensing Types (practical, concrete)
– Intuitive Types (abstract, theoretical)
There are:
– Thinkers (objective, logical, business like)
– Feelers (emotional, subjective, empathetic)
There are:
– Judgers (let’s make a decision)
– Perceivers (let’s gather more information)
You can call these what you like, but such characteristics are observable.
The Myers-Briggs does not claim to measure mental health (depression etc.). You can be any MB type and be healthy or unhealthy. It is way to classify people according to their stated preferences for living life.
I took the test (from a book) with a girlfriend. It got us both basically correct. I had previously taken an online version. Both times gave me the same result. Of course I do not exactly match the archetypal description for my type, but it is close. This is not cold reading stuff; the descriptions for each type are fairly different. Once you remember that the map is not the territory you will be OK.
Using MBTI as the sole reason to accept or reject an applicant is poor judgment. However using it to understand how different types might interact can be useful. It can help an extrovert to understand an introverts need for “space,” an abstract “intuitive” understand that the sensing type might like some details, the thinker recognize the interpersonal needs of a feeler.
I agree fMRI may give us powerful insights into how our brain works. However, like evo-psych it will probably become the next one-true-thing-that-will-answer-all-our-questions.
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Sara I–
As Days of Broken Arrows just mentioned, I did originally come on this post to describe an embarrassing situation I experienced–along the lines of what Roissy was posting. I was agreeing with him, using a personal experience to do so…not “asking for abuse.” I was being self-deprecating if anything.
I am not “playing” at wounded animal nor do I have any interest in guilt-mongering. I am genuinely a feeling, sensitive person with easily hurt feelings.
I apologize if that offends you in some way…but the guilt thing? That is just not of interest to me.
It seems you have not fully read through the comments.
Someone came on here and starting making up stories about me and an ex and my boyfriend…saying really derogatory, cruel, harsh…and ultimately offensive and incorrect things. When he learned of the reality of the situation…he seemed pretty nice actually. But for me to not get offended by that? I don’t know–that seems kind of nuts. That is my life…You are anon–I am not.
Big difference there. Hence why I rarely come on the site.
I was defending myself and honestly–the guys who came to my defense did so without my knowledge…great guys who epitomize “Alpha” behavior like Days and dougjnn and Default User.
They actually read through and did not like the idea of someone being hated on for no good reason. That is really kind, strong and generous. And I appreciate it.
But about the steely inside–yes, inside this mushy girlie girl is someone strong…but I have no interest in using that strength against people.
🙂
Days of Broken Arrows and dougjn–Thank you for actually reading through the comments and understanding what was going on in the most innate way.
I am going to leave the board now for a bit, but it makes me feel great that there are still men left in the world who don’t find great joy in putting others down…and in fact would rather use their intellect and power in more useful ways.
Thanks guys.
And Default User–I am a feeler and an analyzer. Sometimes not the best combo. 😉
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KassyK
There are no bad combos, only bad people 🙂
In my earlier post I forgot to comment on this entry from Kick a Bitch
Please, please, do not grow a pair.
[Unless he was talking of breasts, which I assume you already have]
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“Been with same guy for almost a decade.” I felt the need to correct the little ittie bitty actual piece of not correct information which was why I said what I said. At least to thy own self be true.
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Sleeping with a prostitute is the absolute peak of betaness: alphas can get it all for free, period. I don’t even know why you guys would even find it stimulating in any way: being with someone who isn’t even attracted to you sounds completely repulsive to me. I’ve known of guys who slept with prostitutes: a promiscuous woman bought it for them because even SHE wouldn’t sleep with them, even though she recognised they sorely “needed” to get laid (Amsterdam).
Weddings: I’ve not really experienced a Western wedding. I don’t know what it’s like. The divorce theory is mostly wrong. Arabs have huge weddings and divorce might as well be not an option because of its stigma(although it’s possible, very hard to remarry after getting divorced once); it’s all about the status. Regardless of the shameless materialism and exhibitionism, I absolutely love them. What’s not to like about a really huge party: finery, social dynamics, dramatic performance, beautiful decoration and muscial performance. Watching the couple who’re adorably unsure around each other is lovely.
Still, the idea of having a similar one for myself makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Ladies (Kassy/Lemmonex): Please don’t call yourselves damaged. It makes me as angry as DA calling himself inferior (why’re you thinking this about yourself? Whatever you may be DA, you’re not that. Do what you want with your life, as long as you’re happy with yourself doing it.). Whatever you went through, you’re a stronger person for it and letting it make you stronger. I had an ex who called an ex of his ‘damaged’ and I hated it: the way he used it and how he said he went for ‘damaged’ women. It made her sound as if she was some object which can be broken or devalued somehow. We’re human and the moment we choose to stop crying over the spilt milk, we become stronger.
Default User: a serial axe killer can have a heartbreaking backstory. I would still avoid/and or kill on sight. (Don’t hate bitter betas that much… or do I?) You can choose what kind of man or woman your experiences can make you. You can perhaps overestimate how much sympathy an unloved fat chick can get from modern society.
roissy maxim #100: Their passive brand of assholery is still assholery and that’s one thing I’m not imagining. I’ve been with them and you can genuinely sense the difference between a nice guy beta and an asshole bitter beta: a significant amount of ones I know’re asshole types. I don’t know how frequently betas are jerks, but if we go with the general population and the frequency of inhumane behaviour, a lot are going to be. Same as a lot of women are going to be bitchy, if you let them get away with it.
That’s not to say there’s truth to you saying demonising a beta too much as a way of rationalising guilt away isn’t true; doesn’t mean there wasn’t plenty of fodder for that stuff. I don’t lament ex niceguybeta except for the explicit issues (dropping out of education) which led to destruction of the relationship while ex-assholebeta I want to heap hatred upon at every turn. I talk to niceguy (who I still have romantic feelings for) a lot still but I avoid asshole like the plague (wait, as a future doc, I wouldn’t avoid the plague so even worse than the plague. Whatever that is). Being with assholebeta was a rebound reaction mostly because I couldn’t be with niceguybeta ’cause I’d ended it due to being too bitter about how worthless he made me feel for not even putting the effort in for education, a job etc. The main descriptive all our mutual friends had for asshole beta was ‘nice’ and that’s what I wanted; he’d deceived me and them. The worst thing was he thought that he was a nice guy. Example of his sheer delusion: a mere weeks after we break up, he expects me to feel incredibly sorry for him because he cried when he walked into a store to buy a Valentine’s card for another chick. Note: I was supposed to be the love of his life.
No, dude. You just demonstrated how you have no balls or self awareness, you are a disloyal ass and how much you love playing the sympathy card (especially when you decide to go on next about how much you cried on the shoulders of the new single female roommate you barely know who also is on another year from MY course, and I didn’t miss the self-satisfied way you hinted at how you made sure she thought I was a bitch). Either he thought I was completely stupid (he did call me that) or he’s very deluded or both, ’cause that’s the only reason I can think of for me not seeing through his bullshit.
By the way, guys: Be nice to your exes, because they will shit on your LTR reputation if you’re an indiscreet ass after The Break Up.
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Gunslinger: You work in Iraq?! Damn, get out man! WE NEED YOU ALIVE AND WELL!
Or, as they’d say: Shbeeek yaaba? El balad damaar.
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“You are so dumb. Sorry, I can’t help it. There is such a thing as EMOTIONAL cost nit wit. Look up a few court cases and you’ll find that compensation for emotional damages can far outweigh compensation for financial damages. If you were a women, you’d understand, but you’re a long, long, long, way from that apparently. A healthy feminine women feels hurt, used, and insulted being used as a sperm receptacle with zero recognition of her humanity, and if it happens enough you end up with many women who you then have to deal with. “
Obviously, then, Sara I, I’m not a woman. Don’t know how I managed 22 hours of hard labour, but I guess I must have fluked it.
But I digress…
A healthy, feminine woman shouldn’t be allowing herself to be used as a sperm receptacle, in that case.
This is the problem.
A woman can go out partying, playing the field and disregarding the consequences up to a point, but when it comes to children, it’s a whole different set of rules, and a lot of women these days find it difficult to effectively kill off a prior way of life.
In my case, life stopped, and then started again. I might not have been different, but circumstances were, and things changed.
Don’t think I didn’t cry over that, because there were quite a few nights when I did.
A lot of women think that they can keep up the old lifestyle of going out with the mates once they get a few months with baby under their belts, and while they keep going to galleries, and working on filmshoots, and attending concerts, it’s just not the same with a baby tagging along.
This can breed resentment when there’s nobody to pick up the slack, and it’s ultimately not the healthiest environment for young children.
Nor for older children come to that.
This is not a dig at you, by the way; just from my observations over the years.
There’s the photographer who takes her 2yo to an exhibition of her work at 8pm on a weeknight. (She’s married btw).
The woman whose son by the age of 10 knew how to handle her at her different stages of drinking and after a hard day’s work would get her a glass of wine rather than making her a cup of tea.
I do makeup for film and photographic work, and had to cut it all back because that just doesn’t work for a child. I work in another field now, and just take on a few small jobs a year for mates because otherwise my girl wouldn’t be as happy and healthy as she is.
“Well, honey, neither are pump and dumps. Such is life. I’m just sick of the multitude of cry baby’s who gather here who can’t handle the consequences of their own actions. They’re always crying “FOUL”. Well take it up with the Universal Manager! They think they’re plaintive wails are going to change things? Now, that is funny.”
I agree about guys who do nothing but bleat and wail and gnash their teeth, but this is about women who go out and deliberately get pregnant because they want a child, irrespective of the man’s stance on things.
Women, currently and in our society, hold all the cards when children come along, and it’s foolish to consider it otherwise.
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Blast. Wrong thread.
Should have been on “Predator Sluts”. that’s what happens when you’re about to run out the door.
Just to keep it on topic, bridesmaid 6 times here, and been to more than enough weddings to know that I were to ever venture down that path, I’d be keeping it very small.
Talk about a waste of money and time and effort for a few hours!
The idea might be nice for a day, but how about putting a bit more thought into what comes the day the week the year after?
Of those 6 brides, none are with their original husbands.
Some remarried, some did not.
That doesn’t exactly inspire me to pine for marriage, somehow.
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you guys are all pretty awesome.
lets all go out for drinks and remember that we’re all gonna die eventually, after we get this whole alpha/beta/10/09/04/02 things sorted out. the sooner the better.
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Thanks for the nice thought.
Don’t speak it. Exept Enshalla.
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Bhetti:
Example of his sheer delusion: a mere weeks after we break up, he expects me to feel incredibly sorry for him because he cried when he walked into a store to buy a Valentine’s card for another chick. Note: I was supposed to be the love of his life.
Well, Bhetti, I feel that your comparison of this lesser alpha playing the ‘strong man crying’ with real Beta complaints shows that you don’t know much about yourself even.
A Beta would be laughed out of the room for that story. It’s kinda stupid even for a lesser Alpha to try it.
Here is an example of a (actually real!) Beta complaint:
Being required to pay child support on a child that isn’t yours.
I’ll also use a personal example. Since engineers are viewed as Beta’s, certain creatures, like Tood, think it’s somehow clever to shout about how we need our wages at least halved. Cause let’s be clear, the only way I can compete with Hindu’s H1B slaves being paid a third as much, is by my wages dropping WAY WAY down.
I’ve seen the Hindu’s in my area, and when I was on vacation a German told me about problems in his country. It’s a problem, and it effects me now. But that’s a Beta problem. He just needs he wages halved.
And while we are at it, let’s halve teachers wages!
Suddenly, a light-bulb switches on in Bhetti’s head!
Maybe impovershing women is bad! Oh, the Beta’s? Who cares!
Now, Bhetti, attempt a witty comparison of ‘crying buying a card for your girlfriend’ with a relentlessly MASSIVE assualt on your wages. Every. Single. Year. Go on. Draw it. Delusional little….
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Inshallah bel salaama.
Do abide by the laws. If throwing a slipper* gets you three years, I shudder to think what else could happen!
*(which millions of Iraqi mothers do to their kids all day; thought it was a compliment to the departing head of state. Iraqis express “affection” very roughly.)
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Bhetti–I agree on calling women damaged…I do not like that at all.
But, I don’t call myself that–someone else here did. When Lemmonex said it–she meant it facetiously…kind of teasing that guy who called me that, as my friend.
I hear you–no one should be called damaged–man or woman.
Its very offensive.
Gunslingergregi–Its easier to say “almost a decade” instead of 9 years because we broke up for a year and I dated someone else. No one is denying me dating someone else. My boyfriend dated other girls as well.
But if it makes you feel better, here goes:
I have been with the same guy for almost a decade with the exception of a year when we broke up and I dated someone else.
Is that better? Its just so overly wordy–does anyone really GIVE A SHIT about my life? Why would they?
Its so odd.
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Hehe, Scale, public displays of crying are just…
But, yes, point to you on notmychild support. Though isn’t that an unfortunate side effect of a beta state, rather than complete failure at masculinity on the “beta’s” part? (Not sure how one gets into that situation, unless one doesn’t suspect it is not their child.) How does an alpha guy escape this scenario?
LESSER ALPHA?! But he’s disgusting. But I WAS with him. I’m now going to be completely confused. This WAS the guy who bought me too many presents, played the big failed love you apology card and practically proposed within three months. This WAS also the guy who ignored my requests for discreetness, pressured me into a lot of stuff I didn’t want to do and made a lot of backhanded comments. I despise him for the latter actions (and broke up with him for those), more than I ever could for the former. While I think it’s just plain incompetence at niceness and being too self-absorbed in his boyish emotions, you think it’s lesser alpha. Do I then not like alpha after all? Or only in its pure greater (nicer?) form?
I know very little about myself, that is also true. I’m putting all these thoughts out there, though, and hoping different points of view sheds light on these things. I obviously can’t be objective about my own self. What I can do is try to honestly self-reflect and constantly challenge my views through discussion.
I’ll keep track of him, see if he’s paying child support for kids that aren’t his (if any woman will have him) some day. Assuming he gets a job. The boy’s still young, give him time.
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Kassy: Glad of your view! I can get emotionally reactive upon seeing certain terms; difficult to be objective about context when that happens.
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Bhetti wrote:
LESSER ALPHA?! But he’s disgusting. But I WAS with him. I’m now going to be completely confused. This WAS the guy who bought me too many presents, played the big failed love you apology card and practically proposed within three months. This WAS also the guy who ignored my requests for discreetness, pressured me into a lot of stuff I didn’t want to do and made a lot of backhanded comments. I despise him for the latter actions (and broke up with him for those), more than I ever could for the former. While I think it’s just plain incompetence at niceness and being too self-absorbed in his boyish emotions, you think it’s lesser alpha. Do I then not like alpha after all? Or only in its pure greater (nicer?) form?
Well, he’s certainly trying to be manipulative:
This WAS also the guy who ignored my requests for discreetness, pressured me into a lot of stuff I didn’t want to do and made a lot of backhanded comments.
But he probably doesn’t have any small or large idea why things work when they work. Something like the crying thing works on a woman who thinks he’s alpha(maybe, I think it was stupid), so then he goes and does it on a woman(you) who DOESN’T think he is alpha… and bang, epic fail.
He probably hyper-aggressively tries things, and if they work at all, keeps doing them. But here is the thing, in order for the crying thing to EVER work, he had to have convinced at least one woman he was alpha before he did it. Or it would simply fail every time.
He has no idea of stages, or anything like that, which rather hinders his pickup. But he is aggressive, I’ll give him that.
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KassyK, come on! Your cute sad girl! Half the guys here are falling all over themselves to be your White Knight!
The other half believe your are a foul temptress, merely PRETENDING to be cute sad girl, to lure them in with your dark wiles!
Are you trying to lure them in, evil temptress? Well, are you?
If you post something about a single tear falling on your keyboard while you read this post, then I think we can be fairly sure of your evil temptress nature.
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All of you who are saying that it’s Beta to patronize hookers … What do y’all make of the fact that many, many Hollywood winners make use of hookers and callgirls?
Why do these guys — who could have almost any woman they want — do it?
The hugely successful producer Don Simpson, who was an enthusiastic patron of hookers, explained it this way: “I don’t pay these girls to come, I pay them to go.” In other words: With a prostitute, you get to have sexual fun and release and then it’s over. No need to bother with the tedium of dealing with girly personal crap.
(I’ve had zero experience with hookers myself, for whatever that’s worth …)
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aliasclio:
One type that I’ve observed in real life, and which confounds the linear model you’re referring to, is the guy who is: (1) very good looking as far as physical attributes go, (2) very beta in his behavior (shy, lacking initiative, reacts to any sign of female interest with disproportionate enthusiasm — but also a gentleman), however also (3) lacking any apparent anger, bitterness, and resentment no matter what happens (basically, an honestly phlegmatic temperament).
This sort of guy, as far as I’ve noticed, draws extremely variable reactions from women. Sometimes, he’ll get despised and scorned by women as hopelessly unattractive because of his beta traits. On other occasions, however, he’ll get serious interest from very hot girls — and the combination of good looks and lack of resentment can be enough to compensate for his beta traits. All this is, I repeat, an empirically observed fact, not a theoretical flight of fancy.
Which leads me to conclude that the present sexual laissez-faire system can screw nice girls over just like it screws over beta men. A nice girl who goes for a man of the above describe type can’t be sure if he’s going to stick to her or, at some point, realize that he can change his attitude and become a successful player. (For very physically attractive men, just getting rid of the basic beta mistakes can be equivalent to acquiring a formidable level of game for less handsome guys.)
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roissy
You recently did so in your post Predator Sluts. You have also done it here and here.
Why not? You do it all the time.
Bhetti
Or could it be that betas just can’t get away with it, whereas when an alpha does it he’s just being alpha? In any case, even alphas sacrifice time, money and effort in order to pick up women. There’s really no difference between prostitutes and sluts anyway, except prostitutes are more honest.
Spoken like a completely naive, sheltered person.
Comment_Scale3
All this talk about KassyK makes me think of nerds who go crazy when they discover a girl on the Internet.
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epic fail, ahem, roissy wasn’t complaining about sluts, he was complaining about women who pretend to be sluts in order to get pregnant.
you’re 0 for 3, autistic retard. But keep trying.
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In case you failed to notice, I posted three links. I could have searched for more, but there is no need to do so. It is also obvious from Predator Sluts that roissy does not hold sluts in high regard.
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wait…did tokyo just admit that quoting wikipedia to back up the veracity of wikipedia wasn’t valid?
Halllelujah!
“It is also obvious from Predator Sluts that roissy does not hold sluts in high regard.”
—roissy was not complaining about sluts at all.
QED.
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wait, just re-read your last little hissy fit, epic fail. No “three links” found; just linking to wikipedia, which, again, autistic retard, is not a reliable source until you posit prof otherwise—and not from wikipedia.
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lurker
Uh, no? You’re the first person in this thread to even mention Wikipedia. And again, I never quoted Wikipedia to prove that Wikipedia is reliable. I have explained this to you already.
Yes he was, and even if he wasn’t it makes no difference.
I have not linked to Wikipedia, I have linked to roissy’s posts.
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Or could it be that betas just can’t get away with it, whereas when an alpha does it he’s just being alpha? In any case, even alphas sacrifice time, money and effort in order to pick up women. There’s really no difference between prostitutes and sluts anyway, except prostitutes are more honest.
I agree with your first suggestion – that alphas can get away with it and betas can’t. But what’s this about there being no difference between prostitutes and sluts? That is one of the most nonsensical statements I’ve ever read on this blog, and that’s saying a good deal.
Prostitutes demand money in exchange for their sexual favours. Sluts don’t. As far as I can make out from Roissy and his admirers, many men make it a point of honour not to spend any money on those women whom they see as easy and without any LRT potential. If so, sluts are probably rather less guilty than other women of what some people see as the “soft” prostitution of allowing men to buy them drinks and dinners, with or without performing sexual favours in return. (Not that I agree with this view, either, but it makes more sense than yours.) There’s a reason why “easy” women are also called cheap, you know.
There are a number of reasons to condemn sluttishness, but the notion that it’s akin to prostitution is not one of them.
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Vladimir, I’m not sure how what you say in your comment on my beta support bit actually “confounds” my “linear model”. It seems to me that you’re agreeing with me. There are nice betas – handsome, ugly, and in-between – and nasty betas – also handsome, ugly and in-between.
All I was trying to do in that comment was to suggest that some betas do incur women’s contempt, and others don’t. Some eventually manage to develop enough confidence to sleep with/marry a few women, though they never acquire the kind of social dominance or score-rates that bona fide alphas do.
Roissy, of course, appears to think that this distinction is false, and that all betas are basically alike in their chief characteristics: their inability to get the women they want; and the contempt in which all women hold them, all the time. Any social or sexual success whatever disqualifies a man from being a beta in his eyes; so does any open sign of aggression. (If that’s the case, there must be many more alphas in the world than he has hitherto led me to believe, since I’ve met many apparently contented betas, as well as many truly unpleasant ones.)
At least, I think that’s what he was trying to say. His comment on my comment was unusually garbled and its logic unclear to me.
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If you go out to clubs or bars to find women, you do end up spending time, money and effort. You also have to make yourself attractive to the women, which may also require spending time, money and effort. So what’s really the difference, other than the fact that with prostitutes there’s less likely to be any hassle or confusion?
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Bhetti
I was not defending these guys, just explaining them. Whatever their experience it does not justify vicious attacks, whether with words or axes.
I agree with you and other posters here. The “beta” man is still a man. It is his responsibility to lead, take charge, and fix his life. However, even the toughest warrior can fall victim to battle fatigue. It is tough to suffer the battle scars yet never celebrate victory.
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Vlad:
(1) very good looking as far as physical attributes go, (2) very beta in his behavior (shy, lacking initiative, reacts to any sign of female interest with disproportionate enthusiasm — but also a gentleman), however also (3) lacking any apparent anger, bitterness, and resentment no matter what happens (basically, an honestly phlegmatic temperament).
Hey, I resemble that remark. Though I would not classify myself as “very” good looking though, so I do need to actually have some skills too.
While at law school, I actually did get approached on a fairly regular basis by attractive girls. Of course, I had no idea what I was doing so it rarely went anywhere. And, well, law school girls tend to be on the aggressive side, so they are not to be taken as representative of womankind. (Up until this past year, I have never been approached by attractive girls outside of the law school environment. Regular girls just don’t do that that much.)
The girls I did manage to date prior to this year were all quite attractive, but, again, I had no idea what I was doing, so the things went pretty much nowhere. And the dry spells between dates were loooooooong.
What you are forgetting is that this type of guy tends to attract a good amount of attention from very average looking women. The bargain hunters, I call them. You are a 5 and 6 magnet, which can sometimes be very annoying.
Anyway, great comment.
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And then even when you can achieve a victory but yet still lose the game because you achieved getting nothing of value.
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alpha males are ~20%. this includes lesser alphas and greater betas on the cusp as well.
the subset of alpha males who can score 7 and above pussy on a regular basis without ruts or downtimes are ~10%.
lumpenbeta are ~60%.
omegas and dregs (those for whom pussy rarely if ever blesses them) round out the final 20%.
According to the data from here about 30% of men would probably fit in the alpha or lesser alpha demographic (15+partners).
As for women, sluts (15+ partners) and women on the cusp of sluthood (7-14 partners) make up about 30% of the female population, a number which about matches my own personal observations. The largest number of women (44%) have 2-6 lifetime partners, while a significant portion (28%) have 0-1 lifetime partners. I have to say that this matches my observation too. In church circles, it is really not that difficult to find attractive women who are still virgins, even into their late twenties and sometimes early thirties. Out in the world, normal girls (2-6 partners) are not _that_ hard to find either.
This doesn’t necessarily negate Roissy’s observations of the women he encounters. I don’t know about DC, but there was a survey out that had the average number of partners for women in NYC as double the national average. A lot of big city gals are really slutting it up, so places like DC and NYC are definitely _not_ the places you want to go to find LTR worthy women.
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What do y’all make of the fact that many, many Hollywood winners make use of hookers and callgirls?
1. It is possible to be an alpha and still retain many beta traits.
2. Even for alphas, it often takes a bit of time to get a girl. At the very least, you will usually have to show up at the party/club and talk with her for a couple hours, often late into the night.
3. Some guys want to completely avoid any emotional engagement at all.
Using hookers and call girls is a hit in status. It certainly was a hit for both Don Simpson and Charlie Sheen, both of whom have reps for being sleezebags. Some guys, like both Simpson and Sheen have status to burn, so they don’t mind taking the hit, but, let’s be clear, using prostitutes does give you a hit to your status.
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Bhetti–
First none of the guys you’ve described strike me as any kind of alpha period. Not close. Second I rather think they are both lesser betas, certainly one of them was/is; and the other doesn’t seem higher beta to me either. Maybe plain ole beta. I’d have to know more about his status, but he sure didn’t act higher beta towards you, seems to me.
For some reason I feel an urge to give you some advice. That’s a bit strange in various ways. For one thing being Muslim, a British muslin I take it, and I take it committed to marrying within your faith, you’re in a significantly different culture. As well, though you’ve generally been quite circumspect about it, I take it that you want a whole lot of commitment before much sex, certainly full on sex. So I’m trying to take these things into consideration. I also don’t know how you’d rank on Roissy’s hotness scale. (BTW, on reflection I think that post of his where he did demonstrate successfully that there would be close agreement among his readership of the rank order of hotness of the ten pics of women he posted, also was significantly too tough. In other words I think most of the women there aside from the bottom one who was, well hideous, really should have gotten about 1 point higher than they did on that rank order list. I.e. the order was right but the grading was too tough. Yeah that puts Monica Bellucci off the scale, and well ….). Actually I think the next two down were both nines or maybe the nine was also a ten along with Monica.
But I’m going to assume you’re a 6 or a 7. Correct me if that’s wrong.
With all that said, I think what you should look for is a higher beta who could be an alpha, but hasn’t learned game. I.e. the kind of guy who has lots of confidence in life generally, and some or good status, and is some sort of winner (more is better), but isn’t great at picking up women. And then I think you should teach him some game.
Ridiculous you’re thinking. A girl teaching a guy game you say, absurd. Actually, I don’t think it is so much. I’m not talking about teaching him pickup game. That would in many ways be against your interests. (Except that it would boost his confidence more, but at the cost of doing so in a way that would make keeping him harder, esp. since he’ll have just gotten those wings, and will feel really temped to fly with them at least for awhile.)
I’m talking about relationship game. The not always deferring to you sorts of things, standing up for himself with you, leading you in little ways (without being nutso about that – confidence means the girl can have good ideas for what to do together too and he can listen to them, as long as he’s always able to come up with stuff.) I’m talking about urging him to be kinda macho with you.
Anyway, it’s a thought. Of course if the right sort of commitment oriented alpha does come into your orbit, by all means, get those eyelashes and that hip moving: flirt away in overdrive.
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sluts (15+ partners) and women on the cusp of sluthood (7-14 partners) make up about 30% of the female population
As an addendum, the kinds of people who live in really large cities can be radically different than elsewhere. I can imagine sluts and semi-sluts being around double that number in places like NYC and DC, around 60% of women, maybe even higher. Does that match up with what you guys in these big, liberal cities see?
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“Aliasclio,
There are a number of reasons to condemn sluttishness, but the notion that it’s akin to prostitution is not one of them.”
You can save a prostitute you can’t save a slut. Captain Save a Ho.
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tokyotard:
You recently did so in your post Predator Sluts. You have also done it here and here.
describing the reality of sluts and the consequences of being a slut is not the same as “complaining” about sluts.
or did you miss the part where i wrote that sluts are great fun for flings and easy sex?
hope this helps.
but it probably won’t.
because you have autistic tard reading comprehension issues.
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Prostitute gives it to everyone slut only gives it to everyone but you.
Prostitute can have a soul a slut can’t.
Prostitute fucking those guys was business.
The slut doing it was for pleasure and because that is who she is as a person.
Prostitute is equal opportunity true equal opportunity for all. She is really making the world a better place and removes hate from the world along with a lot of tension.
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slippery clio:
Roissy, of course, appears to think that this distinction is false, and that all betas are basically alike in their chief characteristics: their inability to get the women they want; and the contempt in which all women hold them, all the time.
it’s not black and white. the inability of betas to get women resides along a sliding scale, with greater betas getting mostly what they want in women and lesser betas getting, well, a lot less than what they want. their resentment or lack thereof consequently resides along that same sliding scale.
in fact, the most contemptuous men are not the omegas, who have pretty much given up on any hope of satisfying their primal needs, but the middling betas for whom the carrot is JUUUUUUST out of reach and who bear the full brunt of the ugly side of women’s hardwired sexuality algorithm.
Any social or sexual success whatever disqualifies a man from being a beta in his eyes;
i never said that. don’t lie about what i write like chiclet does all the time. one of her kind is enough.
so does any open sign of aggression.
i never said that either. what i did say is that the vast majority of middle of the road betas don’t have the stones to act out aggressively in real time with women who reject them. such an unsavory event is usually to be found among the subspecies of lesser alphas and greater betas, with the occasional psycho omega thrown in for shits and giggles.
(If that’s the case, there must be many more alphas in the world than he has hitherto led me to believe, since I’ve met many apparently contented betas, as well as many truly unpleasant ones.)
i said that in my observation about 20% (thursday linked to a study which puts it around 30%) of men are greater betas to alphas. this means that 2 out of every 10 men you meet are capable of aggressively responding to rejection from women.
think about that, clio. that’s a lot of men.
At least, I think that’s what he was trying to say. His comment on my comment was unusually garbled and its logic unclear to me.
spontaneous orgasms from reading me will do that to a woman.
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When times get tough the prostitue can make money for the family the slut will leave you.
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roissy, you obviously don’t approve of sluts, and don’t think that they’re good for longterm relationships. But at the same time you see nothing wrong with men acting like sluts.
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thursday:
As an addendum, the kinds of people who live in really large cities can be radically different than elsewhere. I can imagine sluts and semi-sluts being around double that number in places like NYC and DC, around 60% of women, maybe even higher. Does that match up with what you guys in these big, liberal cities see?
yes.
in fact, some guys i talk to have told me they have yet to meet a woman in DC who has had fewer than 20 partners. when the subject comes up, they double the number the woman gives them. i think that’s a fair approximation. one guy claimed to have banged a lawyer chick who proudly announced she had had a sum total of 250 cocks up her hole.
funny story:
one time i had broken it off with this girl i had been seeing for a few months, and within a two week span right after the breakup i bumped into her no less than three times holding hands with three different guys on what were, presumably, first or second dates. there are good girl rebounds and then there are slut rebounds.
btw, plenty of non-slutty girls arrive in the big city with their unscarred pussies relatively intact, but then morph into slut machines once the city living and their new circle of slutty girlfriends warps their internal definition of modesty.
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tokyotard:
roissy, you obviously don’t approve of sluts,
again, readingcomprehensiontardboy, describing the reality of sluts and the consequences for women of slutting it up is not the same as expressing disapproval of sluts.
ya dope.
and don’t think that they’re good for longterm relationships.
that is true. sluts are more likely to cheat in a relationship. but they are also more likely to put out on the first date, so i wholeheartedly endorse the continued existence of sluts.
But at the same time you see nothing wrong with men acting like sluts.
spoken like a true betabitch.
hint: men who sleep with a lot of women are studs, not sluts. they are heroes of their social groups and more attractive to women.
if you can’t see that sleeping around is different for women, then your tard-like naivete is beyond repair.
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Thursday: “Using hookers and call girls is a hit in status. It certainly was a hit for both Don Simpson and Charlie Sheen, both of whom have reps for being sleezebags. Some guys, like both Simpson and Sheen have status to burn, so they don’t mind taking the hit, but, let’s be clear, using prostitutes does give you a hit to your status.”
I’m not sure that’s always the case. I think it may depend on a lot of factors, including the context. I don’t believe anyone in Hollywood lost respect for Don Simpson because he was famous for his taste for hookers, for instance. At least I certainly never heard any such thing. What I did hear was that loads of people thought of him this way: “Oh, that Don Simpson sure is a bad boy.” So long as he carried on with brio and confidence and made a lot of money, it was fine.
There are real practical reasons to use hookers and callgirls too: No relationship baloney, quick and fast and easy … What if you’re all jigged-up and busy? The inner pressure’s building up … But you need to get back to work soon … If you have the dough, the hotel room, and the connections — if it’s just a phone call and a credit card away — why *not* dial up a hooker?
Question: Which is more beta in such a situation — jerking off in solitude, or ordering up a hooker from a Hollywood agency and enjoying a couple of hours of company (if professional) and release?
I don ‘t think these guys order up callgirls because they have a beta streak in them, in other words. I think they’re busy, bigshot alphas with strong sex drives and big bank accounts who need release and who find it ‘way more convenient and fun to deal with professionals than they do to waste time and emotions on g.f.’s, let alone to content themselves with their own hands.
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Tokyo–
I normally don’t respond to anything you say, but this trope is something that lots of people, especially feminists of both genders throw around.
Many men wish they could act like sluts. But they can’t, or the great majority can’t. It’ isn’t easy for most men, and not super easy for almost any man, rock stars and groupies aside. That’s why for men it isn’t being a slut. It’s different. It’s being a stud, or a lothario. It’s an accomplishment, rather than merely accepting or looking for casual sex, which is all it takes for any halfway decent looking women, and a lot of not decent looking ones too.
Any woman who’s a four on up can be as much of a high volume slut as she wants. Yeah she may not often get an alpha, but she can get higher betas for casual, no problemo. Hell even threes can be big time sluts with lower quality guys.
Embrace double standards on some male/female issues. We’re different and act differently.
Also I for one like various kinds of sluts. They do vary a lot you know. They’re not all the hard bitten bitches from hell that some are. Some are just high sex drive casual sex embracers who can be lots of fun to be with, and play with, and get back with from time to time. Some are actually pretty vulnerable esp. with alphas and sometimes fall in love. I’ve have some very affectionate quasi relationships with sluts. One in particular was a fuck buddy on and off, more on than off, for a couple of years. She had a lot of jucy stories to tell too.
It’s just really bad news to fall really in love with a slut. Particularly a serious and long time slut. Particularly for a beta to do so. Though betas are more likely to, cause of well, the aridity of their sex life and their thirst for pussy.
The thing about big time sluts is that unlike pretty good girls, they will sometimes fuck guys they mostly just want to be friends with, esp. if the guy is a greater beta or can be. This can mess with lots of beta’s heads. Of course there are nice sluts as well as mean ones. The nice ones probably end up messing with beta’s heads more, esp. if they’re clearly cute, like say a 6. Heartbreak city when beta guy learns of the other, hotter guys, she’s also been banging (but who aren’t willing to spend as much time with her) while the beta thought she might be becoming or actually that she was his girlfriend.
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roissy
Your posts make it perfectly clear that you don’t approve of them. I guess you’re not consciously aware of it or something.
It is impossible for me to a beta since I don’t play the game.
It is a blatant double standard to fuck anything that moves and then denounce women who do the same. There is no excuse for it.
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dougjnn
If you have slept around extensively, or wish you could, you have no right to demand your girlfriend to be a paragon of chastity.
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in fact, some guys i talk to have told me they have yet to meet a woman in DC who has had fewer than 20 partners. when the subject comes up, they double the number the woman gives them.
Anytime I ever ask “How many boyfriends have you had?” when playing the questions game, half the time her answer starts with something like “Like serious boyfriends?…” Shame has very much gone out the window.
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I don’t believe anyone in Hollywood lost respect for Don Simpson because he was famous for his taste for hookers, for instance.
Hollywood is full of sleazebags, so he didn’t stand out. To the extent that people outside Hollywood noticed him though, he was regarded as kind of a creep, and this had at least partially to do with his taste for hookers.
Which is more beta in such a situation — jerking off in solitude, or ordering up a hooker from a Hollywood agency and enjoying a couple of hours of company (if professional) and release.
False dichotomy. You would think that a true alpha, especially one with Simpson’s status, would have been able to call up somebody for a booty call. There are guys out there with lists and lists of girls they can call up.
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autistictardsuperhero:
Your posts make it perfectly clear that you don’t approve of them.
only to a blockheaded tard like yourself who lacks reading comprehension.
I guess you’re not consciously aware of it or something.
the irony meter just exploded.
It is impossible for me to a beta since I don’t play the game.
no one is exempt from the game. you’re soaking in it whether you realize it or not.
It is a blatant double standard to fuck anything that moves and then denounce women who do the same. There is no excuse for it.
double standards are a fact of life. get used to it.
btw, if your next response is a continuation of the broken record tardness you have demonstrated for all to see in your previous 100 comments, you will be banned.
so think carefully before you write.
don’t say i didn’t warn ya.
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omw
Hey, Sara, I just took a quicky enneagram, and came up Type 5 with 9 wing
Very cool. The enneagram is bar none the most truly useful personality typing system because it also has the ability if you take it seriously to enable you to transform yourself from an average or unhealthy individual to a healthy individual based on your particular strengths and weakness. It also does NOT take gender into consideration. Personally I get along very well with Fives. You need to read it a bit further if you want to truly type yourself. There is no such thing as a five with a nine wing. Only five with six or five with four. I am an eight with nine.
Default user
I don’t know much about the Myers-Briggs system, but I correlate with Extraverted iNtuition ENTP, ENFP according to this:
http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/typecorr.htm
I”m into The Enneagram if you haven’t heard.
Days of Broken Arrows
And Sara, considering KassyK’s first comment on this thread was a self-effacing post about dressing as a bridesmaid, that doesn’t qualify as “asking for abuse” in my estimation
I hate to tell you this, but you’re wrong. There are many types of asking and most are subconscious. I know what I’m asking for when I come here and am never shocked or disappointed.
Kassy K
I was defending myself and honestly–the guys who came to my defense did so without my knowledge…great guys who epitomize “Alpha” behavior like Days and dougjnn and Default User.
I beg to differ on dougjnn! You should read some of our previous exchanges, but then I was asking for it. LOL Good luck with your sensitive feelings but in my opinion you’re more touchy than sensitive.
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Default User
Yeah! You are the anti-KassyK (or maybe she is the anti-Sara I).
Sappy beta that I am, like you both!
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
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re: hookers and betas.
MB and thursday are both right. the betaness of johns who solicit hookers is dependent on the context of the john’s current love life and the status of the john in question. example: an i-banker with a hot GF who pays hookers for the sheer thrill of banging a variety of pussy minus the headaches of dealing with emotionally attached mistresses or booty calls will not lose alpha points. he won’t go up in alpha status, but neither will he lose status.
the guy who goes to a hooker because he can’t get any for free is a loser. he’s in the same league as the nerdo celibate who gloomily masturbates at home, and his morose mental state will constantly remind him of that fact. i haven’t seen stats on the types of men who use hookers, but my guess would be that, at least on the lower end of hooker quality, most of the johns are betas.
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Back to Vlad’s comment:
Sometimes, he’ll get despised and scorned by women as hopelessly unattractive because of his beta traits. On other occasions, however, he’ll get serious interest from very hot girls — and the combination of good looks and lack of resentment can be enough to compensate for his beta traits.
This is fucking maddening state to be in:
1. Never knowing whether an attractive girl will give you a great response or a really cold, contemptuous one, and the whole thing having no apparent rhyme or reason.
2. Having attractive girls approach you on occasion, again with no rhyme or reason (aside from the fact that this only happened in law school).
2. Girls you like refusing to tell you that they are not interested. A couple times I ended up would literally saying to girls, “Just tell me you’re not interested. Please, I want you to say I have no chance.” But they wouldn’t. And two months later you would see them holding hands with some other guy. Believe me, being some hot girl’s back up plan is a million times worse than outright rejection.
3. Raising your standards beyond your actual capabilities. I remember being told in college that this really stunning girl had had a crush on me all year based, so far as I can tell, on just one conversation I had with her, just as I was leaving to transfer to a different school half way across the country. It is really hard to “accept your place” and date mediocre women after that.
4. Dating some quite attractive women, only to have it all fall apart after a while for no apparent reason.
Needless to say having all these attractive girls being sooooo close was enough to drive me crazy at times. I am fortunate that I never let myself be an emotional tampon with any of the girls I met this way. Thank god, I had the sense, even then, to never, ever discuss their relationships with them.
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Oops, misnumbered those.
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TBG:
roissy, you obviously don’t approve of sluts, and don’t think that they’re good for longterm relationships. But at the same time you see nothing wrong with men acting like sluts.
Double standards are a part of male-female dynamics. Get over yourself already.
It is a blatant double standard to fuck anything that moves and then denounce women who do the same. There is no excuse for it.
Men and women have fundamentally different psychological needs due to their differing biologies. Do you dispute this?
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roissy
You’re obviously in denial.
That’s like saying no one is exempt from the fact that I am always right about everything. Ridiculous.
And how many double standards did we once have that are now ancient history? If people had just said “get used to it,” those double standards (such as slavery) would still exist. “Get used to it” is not a valid defense.
If you truly had confidence in your views, you wouldn’t have any need to ban people because they are questioning them. But of course you are insecure, and afraid of anyone who might find problems in the things you say. You have much in common with feminists and leftists, and generally anyone engaged in political correctness. To people like you, a comments section is just an ego-boosting echo chamber. You are truly an alpha among alphas.
And you have already banned me once, but IP addresses can be changed.
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Tupac Chopra
It doesn’t matter. It’s still a double standard. It is hypocritical to condemn others for doing the same thing you’re doing.
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Thursday, great list. I can relate.
Girls you like refusing to tell you that they are not interested. A couple times I ended up would literally saying to girls, “Just tell me you’re not interested. Please, I want you to say I have no chance.” But they wouldn’t. And two months later you would see them holding hands with some other guy. Believe me, being some hot girl’s back up plan is a million times worse than outright rejection.
“In case of alpha-emergency, break beta-glass”
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“And you have already banned me once, but IP addresses can be changed.”
What a loser.
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TBG:
And how many double standards did we once have that are now ancient history? If people had just said “get used to it,” those double standards (such as slavery) would still exist. “Get used to it” is not a valid defense.
Not all double-standards are arbitrary. Get over yourself.
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My all time favorite alpha-beta
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tokyo–
Just who do you think cares what rights you think men who have been with a good number of women should have?
My current gf has sure slept with a whole lot fewer partners than I have and we’re both happy with it being that way.
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TBG:
It doesn’t matter. It’s still a double standard. It is hypocritical to condemn others for doing the same thing you’re doing.
The hell it DOESN’T matter. In a conflict situation with a child, I reason with him. With a wild animal, I shoot it. Thank god for double-standards!
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Don’t be an idiot. Obviously nobody is saying that all double standards in the universe are wrong. There’s just no good reason for this double standard.
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Sara —
You felt deeply threatened that I used you as an example of divorce theft right here in our midst, and that I kept arguing against alimony ever in this day and age when women can have virtually any job, or a wife’s getting half of her husband’s wealth particularly when she leaves the marriage for no very compelling reason.
You then lashed out at me to the best of your ability, and refused to talk further. And I of course retaliated. Leaving Sara all mad and deeply hostile towards dougjnn.
Boo hoo.
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Tokyo–
Plenty of people say just that. Most of the PC crowd do. And feminists certainly say that, very hypocritically.
Men and women are different. That leads to legitimate double (aka different) standards. QED.
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Why should this double standard be acceptable?
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leader of the tards:
You’re obviously in denial.
since your case of muleheaded tardness is much more severe than i originally thought, i will spell it out for you.
1. sluts are poor long term prospects due to their higher propensity of cheating. noting this fact of life is not disapproval, in much the same way that noting the sun rises in the east is not disapproving of the sun’s existence.
2. advising men who are interested in long term relationships with women that they are best served screening for girls who aren’t sluts is not disapproving of sluts. it is stating a fact and recommending a course of action based on that fact.
3. disapproving of sluts would entail making a moral judgment of their lifestyle choice. if the tard hamster that makes your tard brain run hadn’t fallen off its tard wheel, you would be able to properly comprehend what i write and understand that my noting of these pertinent facts about sluts is not equivalent to making a moral judgment about them.
4. once you understood that, you’d have to confront the fact that, yes, all these years you’ve been living you were nothing but a complete and utter tard. and that would sting just a bit.
5. i have written on more than one occasion that sluts make for great easy lays. inasmuch as i would want a quick lay, i wholeheartedly endorse the existence of sluts.
6. you’re still a tard.
7. and that will never change.
If you truly had confidence in your views, you wouldn’t have any need to ban people because they are questioning them.
confidence ain’t got nothing to do with it, tardboy. it’s the dullness and aggressive stupidity of your comments soiling this blog ad nauseum that is leading to your banishment. there’s only so much boring and repetitive inanity i can tolerate.
And you have already banned me once, but IP addresses can be changed.
when was the last time you stepped outside and let the sun shine on your face?
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superlative tard:
There’s just no good reason for this double standard.
evolutionarily emergent double standards don’t need a reason, you schmuck.
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aliasclio:
Sorry, it seems like I wasn’t clear. I meant that the type I described is somewhat inconsistent with Roissy’s linear omega-beta-alpha hierarchy that you were also criticizing. That’s what I meant by the “linear model”.
This is close to what I had in mind. Good looks can partly compensate for beta behavior, however the third critical factor is whether the man displays the nasty resentful attitude, which women are so good at detecting. Basically, my observation was that a man who gets points for good looks and lack of anger and resentment, but loses points for overt beta behavior in the sense of shyness, putting girls on a pedestal, etc., can elicit strikingly different reactions from women.
I think there is some confusion over the exact meaning of “contempt” here. Men are apt to perceive as “contempt” certain attitudes that women who hold them would not describe that way; ultimately, it’s a matter of semantics. I think Roissy wrote somewhere that “pity is a form of contempt”, which is an example that illustrates this difference quite well.
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Oops… I just remembered that certain words will send your comment to moderation. Before my comment shows up, here’s only the first, most relevant part:
aliasclio:
Sorry, it seems like I wasn’t clear. I meant that the type I described is somewhat inconsistent with Roissy’s linear o***a-beta-alpha hierarchy that you were also criticizing. That’s what I meant by the “linear model”.
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Why should this double standard be acceptable?
Whether it should be acceptable or not is actually not really the issue.
Point is, it exists, it has always existed in a healthy society – even in some unhealthy ones – and it always will.
The question is, will you learn to accept it and work either within its confines or around them, and then take the consequences that come your way?
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it’s the dullness and aggressive stupidity of your comments soiling this blog ad nauseum that is leading to your banishment.
“Aggressive stupidity” is a good description. I don’t mind people who question Game/HBD etc if they do so in good faith but that little fellow plays an inane game of infinite-loop blockheadedness that ruins fun threads.
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Roissy —
I think the propensity of super sluts to cheat approaches 100%, particularly if they marry any kind of beta. Particularly in this age of no fault divorces as her not very scary downside.
Super sluts love casual sex and sexual variety, and have felt little guilt or self reproach for pursing that. Even if they have a change of heart or say they do when it comes time to get serious about a relationship, they’ve got all those wild experiences with multiple alphas seared into their hindbrains. They viscerally know that different alphas bring different thrills. So after awhile in a relationship, those good girl resolutions just aren’t going to be enough and she’s gonna give in to some alpha’s seductive approach. Giving in to her sexual urges very easily is so much a part of who she’s been. Particularly when the beta she’s with just can’t measure up to the bad girl thrills she’s had with many different alphas.
But even if by some miracle of covering her traces helped by a judicious move at husband searching time and a severing of contact with most of her old friends, she manages to snag an alpha not up on detective work, she’s still extremely likely to cheat and probably a lot after awhile. Her barriers to no love necessary casual sex are just too non existent and her thrills from variety just too great. And she knows just how easy it is.
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nilk
I will never accept it.
PA
I don’t ruin threads, but many other readers do (see lurker for example). Strangely enough nobody has a problem with them. The only reason why anyone has a problem with me is because I question game. That’s it.
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PA
Yeah. And that’s a good description too.
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Men are apt to perceive as “contempt” certain attitudes that women who hold them would not describe that way
I think Roissy is using the word contempt to mean thinking someone far below you.
Contra Whiskey, though, many women do not _hate_ beta males any more than they hate old people or teenagers or other women. They simply view them as outside their sexual purview and as such can genuinely like and respect them on that level. It is only when brought into her scope as a potential sex partner (usually by him making some sort of advance, but also sometimes by being pointed out to her in a game like Marry/Fuck/Kill) that women become disgusted with betas and often turn hateful.
As Vlad and I have pointed out, things are a bit more cloudy for the good looking beta. Perhaps my experience as one of that type has warped my perceptions here.
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As Vlad and I have pointed out, things are a bit more cloudy for the good looking beta. Perhaps my experience as one of that type has warped my perceptions here.
Your earlier list is something I can relate to, looking back at my 20s. Endless confusing exhasperation with things going great / things going to the tank with girls.
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Sara I
Hey, don’t be too nice to me; you will kill my credibility here.
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Alia Clio–
I think your contention that some betas are nice guys and some aren’t is true, and further that other things being equal nice guy betas are more likely to get an attractive gf and wife than hostile and especially resentful ones also has merit.
It gets complicated quickly though. There’s the confident about most things if not picking up women, and liking women kind of nice. And there’s the afraid not to be nice kind of nice; the weak smile nice, etc.
In general I think it’s the better betas who are more likely to be the more attractive kind of nice. They’ve got more going for them, including often a fair degree of status, just not much edginess. They also will have gotten some at least fairly attractive girls. They’ll just often have had to work hard at it and be faithful bfs to get any, with maybe a less pretty 5-6 sort of slut or two in between gfs. They often sort of specialize in nice & loyal. That’s how they got their 6 or 7 gf that they hold onto for dear life. However, any hint of disloyalty and they’re in serious trouble with their sorta hottie. So that tends to keep many of them beta. It’s a cycle.
I was clearly a higher beta in junior high. I was tall and athletic but also wasn’t in the real “in crowd” partly because I was easily the smartest guy in my (fairly small) class and partly because we were relative newcomers to this pretty snooty neighborhood. I was leader of a rebel group though. By prep I had made it into a somewhat shakey alpha hood. Sort of lesser alpha I guess, with some beta relapses. That had been helped by my first full sex when I was 14 at a summer community. The ratio of girls to boys at that place was about 2 to 1, because of all the mothers helpers and some guys being off doing summer jobs. I had lied and said I was starting Harvard that fall instead of prep school. I was already 6′ tall and smart and well pulled it off. So I had two gf’s, an official 18 yo smartish Catholic mother’s helper one and the secret sluttier Jewish one I had sex with. C was an 8; J a 7. They were good friends. I spent the summer trying to talk virginal C into having sex with me by arguing theology and literature etc. on the beach and finally getting a few bjs, while banging J many an evening. It was an incredible ego boost — and also taught me how little good rational thought did re: sex.
But I still wasn’t reliably alpha in less benign environments during high school. The main problem was that I thought I should be really nice to girls, and didn’t understand negs at all. Or edgyness, other than intellectual edgieness either. I did understand social proof though and that being seen with one pretty girl makes it vastly easier to get others, e.g at school dances. Actually I’d cycle between higher beta and lesser alpha. The process taught me some aspects of game. But only some. Lots of conflicting ideas and lack of clarity. I wasn’t able to always pull myself out of a downer period.
Then the summer between my junior and senior year of hs, I got a really hot but also it turned out slutty gf. (That fall her father actually sent her to a shrink for nymphomania, with her antics back home in Georgia in mind.) Her divorce rich mother had just moved her up from Georgia to our suburbs of NYC neighborhood. I met her at a country club dance. She knew no one. I picked her up, probably doing wrong things, but with confidence. I did have quite a bit of social proof by then. She looked sensational in a deeply pleated dress/gown that flashed black stripes when she twirled around dancing with me. I was tall and strong and fairly good looking, but still not fully in the clannish in group back home. (Had done great at several summer places though.) Nobody knew she had a slutty history down south except me (I got her to spill all as she quickly fell in love with me) but she was loyal to me while we were together, or anyway she was that summer for sure. I’d been on the verge of breaking really in before. That did it. All the home girls mooned at me after I’d gotten her. It also set me up well for college. Oh and she was fantastic in bed. Passion city. Insatiable. We went 15 times in one night, literally, when I flew down and visited her at her prep school that fall. To the point of both of us bleeding some. She was also very sexually submissive, but in a very active sort of way. She really wanted to be overwhelmed and roughly used, she begged for it, and so I learned it. A lot. To say she made my testosterone soar would be an understatement. She helped me enormously. She probably did cheat on me some when she was away a different school. I did hear a rumor that spring. LDR’s. And well she was seeing a shrink for you know what. But she did set me in a good direction. I learned a lot from her that I definitely took and used to good effect at college.
So I’m saying these things can be self reinforcing. Some progress sets you up for more. And I’m saying that I think “Mr. Nice Guy” tends to be especially a higher beta thing. I’ve been there.
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Thursday:
That’s true for the most part, but on occasions, I have observed guys of this type getting very attractive girls, even in the ~8 range. However, it is true that it takes a lot in terms of good looks to compensate for a near-complete lack of game. From what I’ve seen, noticeably above-average height can work miracles in this regard when combined with a nice athletic build and an at least moderately hadsome face. Of course, this is of no consequence for guys who are less lucky genetically, especially when it comes to height; they can indeed hope for little more than being 5-6 magnets if they rely just on their best looks and a pleasant (but still beta) personality.
What I find most interesting here, however, is the contrast between the reactions of different girls to such guys who sport a combination of excellent looks and horrible game. It seems to me like women really assign different weights to good looks relative to game and social proof. This is only of theoretical interest, though.
Yes, I’ve had similar experiences in my younger days.
What I find really tragicomical is how you’ll occasionally drop some good game at the right moment by sheer accident, only to watch the situation deteriorate into a disaster when you fail to follow up on it, especially if the initial momentum carries you through several increasigly bad dates. Now that I can understand what actually happened, I laugh when I reflect on some such past disasters, which were maddeningly confusing at the time. Trouble is, when you are exposed to such maddening confusion, it’s hard not to end up in the self-reinforcing loop of increasing resentment that further dooms your prospects.
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PA–
Yuup. That’s what being attractive in various ways, but leaning too far over to be nice will do. Reliably, especially with hotter and sexually hungrier girls. Then you mange to get the interest of a good girl sort of hottie and you’re off to the good side again. For awhile. Until you learn more.
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Vladamir —
Oh yeah. I can definitely relate from my younger days. Such a good way of putting it. I was searching so damn hard for the answer too. I was sure I knew part of it but also sure I was missing part of it. Or I thought maybe I just had enough charisma (or enough sex and the confidence it brings under my belt) to sometimes work but not enough for it to reliably or with a wide variety of types of girls. Or hell I just couldn’t fully figure it out. But it was like the most important mystery there was.
I still don’t think the same things work equally well with everyone, though knowing game I’m convinced does help with everyone. But some girls what a physically imposing even somewhat scary kind of bad boy, while others want a witty intellectually dominant sort of alpha who also has enough physical uumph for them.
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oops. Sara, you’re right. I was a five with a four wing, and my husband turned out to be a six. Weird pairing, eh?
The guy is exceedingly loyal, per his type description… makes it hard to for me to accept the idea that men have some sort of inherent desire/right/Darwinian obligation to whore around as much as humanly possible while the little women sit at home and apply self-tanner to their BFFs.
Perhaps this is why I find some of Roissy’s ponderings on the supposedly iron laws of gender relations hard to accept on their face.
There are limitations on the usefulness of dividing the world into clear-cut Male Versus Female, or even Alpha versus Beta, or Slut versus Nice-girl categories.
It’ll get you so far, but no further than that.
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I have observed guys of this type getting very attractive girls, even in the ~8 range.
No, I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just making the point that if you are a good looking beta the 5s, 6s and sometimes even lower girls will throw themselves at you at the slightest encouragement.
Women have a bit of a screwed up relationship to men’s looks. On the one hand, looks are not the primary attractant, and women will go with the ugly guy with game before the good looking guy. Yet, on the other hand, there is something about a good looking man that still seems to hit women on a primal level that even men with game cannot match. I think Clio once mentioned how much more exciting it was to kiss a handsome man. And, on a Darwinian level, this makes sense. After all, who wants ugly daughters.
So, 5s and 6s, resigned to not getting a man with game, will often vigourously pursue shy, but good looking guys. When I have to deal with parents at my school, I almost visibly wince when I see some of these short, timid, but cute beta fathers married to these beasts. (The daughters usually end up slightly above average.) There but for the grace of God go I.
What I find really tragicomical is how you’ll occasionally drop some good game at the right moment by sheer accident, only to watch the situation deteriorate into a disaster when you fail to follow up on it, especially if the initial momentum carries you through several increasigly bad dates.
Lol. Oooooh so true.
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Dang, Thursday, a 6 is a beast?
By definition, it would seem they’d actually be a bit above average…
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Sara I
From reading your link, it looks like there is no clear connection between the two (Myers-Briggs versus Enneagram).
Ahh! iNntuitives, a rare breed, just 25 percent of the population.
If you are an “N” you will be more comfortable with metaphors, symbols, theories, more abstract ideas. As an “N” you prefer the big picture to the details.
If you were a Sensor you would be happier with practical, concrete day-to-day matters. You are happy with the details. You prefer to know what is next, not what does it mean.
Sensors = reading the instruction book from page one to the end.
Intuitives = browsing the Internet, following links from one thing to the next.
[The above is a good example of “N” style thinking – a metaphor not a description]
What are you looking for when you come here and why do you come?
BTW: Are you into the Enneagram? 🙂
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The guy is exceedingly loyal, per his type description… makes it hard to for me to accept the idea that men have some sort of inherent desire/right/Darwinian obligation to whore around as much as humanly possible while the little women sit at home and apply self-tanner to their BFFs.
This is a point I have made before. Women hate being cheated on on a primal level, and, just like for a girl, a guy’s having a large notch count is a good indicator that he will be a cheater. So, women have a bit of a screwed up relationship with guys who do well with women. On the one hand, pre-selection is attractive. PUAs counsel it, because it works. But on the other it signals that the guy may be a cheater and may abandon her and her child. So, there is repulsion there too.
For most women, Roissy is right: the attraction is greater than the repulsion. But for a significant minority the repulsion is greater than the attraction.
Jason Malloy from GNXP has some data showing that men are not _all_ partner maximizers. For example, there are surprising numbers of gay men who have had a _very_ low number of partners, even though they have the opportunity to sex almost at will with the other gay men who are promiscuous as hell. I don’t think even AIDS can explain the very low numbers that were there. If a significant number of even gay men can be sexually loyal, loyalty among men must have been selected for by women.
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Dang, Thursday, a 6 is a beast?
No, a 6 is not a beast, but some of the matches I have seen have been quite grotesque.
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Ah, yes, I know of what you speak. You see them in the military, too– perfectly decent-looking guys married to, apparently, wildebeests. 😉
But I wouldn’t describe these gals as 6s. They didn’t even start out at 6!
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Thursday —
I would think that banging a steady diet of 6’s, while avoiding tying yourself up exclusively to one and while working on game with 7s and 8s, would be a good way for better betas that aren’t getting much to move up.
I.e. one can psych oneself up some even when one isn’t getting any; but getting some from a girl that’s pretty enough to get your juices flowing, particularly if she’s the very enthusiastic type, sure does help, seems to me.
Hell I’d say the same thing to middling betas, moving it all down a notch. Try to get some fives. Maybe slutty fives. Upthread Roissy says there are a lot of slutty fives and that jibes with my somewhat out of date impressions. Maybe a somewhat chubby but not really fat one. Work on relationship game with them. Work on your oral and taking charge sexing generally. Avoid getting tied down, while not advertising that a committed relationship is out of the question. Fuck buddying a five you’re friendly with would be great for a middle beta I’d think, while you’re trying to move up. In that post Roissy did on assigning numbers to girls pictures, that sitting with legs crossed girl near the end of his photo group was rank ordered a 4 I think but really probably should be a 5 (the whole list aside from the 1 and maybe 2, and yeah Monica, is I’d say shifted down 1 point as I said upthread to someone). Any beta trying to move up who wouldn’t do her to build confidence by getting some, ideally regularly but not exclusively, is hurting himself seems to me.
Is this impossible with twenty somethings these days? Doesn’t this go on? I sorta get the impression it doesn’t much from Roissy. Are the urban fives only fucking higher betas and hoping for lesser alphas period these days?
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You see them in the military, too– perfectly decent-looking guys married to, apparently, wildebeests
The minute a guy puts on his BDUs, the 3s become 9s!
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heh! Well, what can you do?
Sometimes you encourage them to get the hell of Ft. Bragg or wherever, that there are girls out there in the Civilian World who’d kill for a real man.
All those cute little English majors at the state college! Who are they dating?? Probably nobody they like.
But young guys can be astonishingly lazy sometimes. And living in the barracks really does wear you down after awhile.
Eventually some of them will take any girl who’s willing, and not completely deformed. LOL.
oh well.
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Thursday-
And it’s THAT that has changed so much the last several decades. In the seventies and esp. sixties it might have been about fifty fifty. I think in the 40s and before it was strongly in the other direction for most, good girl, women. And most women back then were seriously raised to be good girl types.
Though women have ALWAYS been highly attracted to the rich or going to be rich kind of alphas even if there was an adultery risk. These money / really high status kinds of alphas were worth it. Even in the 40s or hell 1900. And most parents thought so. There were Hollywood movies pushing contra to this sort of idea in the 1930s, where the steady faithful Eddie was really much less heartbreak and more wholesome in the end, but it was an uphill battle and there were plenty of Hollywood messages in the other direction. Though the high T hard charger (e.g. Clark Gable) sort if he got the girl in the end was almost always supposed be transformed by her transcendent beauty and innocence.
A push to make it safer for women to marry this sort of man, their heart’s aspiration or anyway what their p*ssy brain and their parents’ brains could agree on, is exactly how the early 20th century proto feminist drive for high divorce and alimony awards (and automatic easy divorce upon discovering adultery, something American women have for a long time been far more militant about than Euros or others) really got going. They could have their cake and eat it too that way. They had the option upon discovering adultery of “retiring” rich or richish and marrying a second husband of a different type (maybe). (It still wasn’t anything like the current outrageous half without prenup however (when divorcing a rich husband back then) though.)
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Eh, it all just goes back to the fact that we don’t have as many kids as we used to, and that the concept of marriage-as-childrearing-institution has taken a gigantic backseat to marriage-as-mainly-romantic-whim.
If the latter is your view, don’t get married. It’ll just muck up your fun.
If the former is your business, then who really cares about the problems of rich people anyway? LOL.
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he’s in the same league as the nerdo celibate who gloomily masturbates at home, and his morose mental state will constantly remind him of that fact.
Masturbation isn’t neccessarily gloomy, but from my experience, repeated daily use can become depressing, especially if there isn’t much else in one’s life or if masturbation gets in the way of hobbies or normal functioning.
but my guess would be that, at least on the lower end of hooker quality, most of the johns are betas
IIRC, I remember reading that men with girlfriends tend to use prostitutes as a means of acting act their aggressive sexual fantasies, desires, and fetishes that they can’t use with their women, while men without girlfriends tend to act like sweet betas with their prostitutes and treat them “gently” like girlfriends.
The thing about big time sluts is that unlike pretty good girls, they will sometimes fuck guys they mostly just want to be friends with, esp. if the guy is a greater beta or can be. This can mess with lots of beta’s heads.
I was lucky that my older cousins clued me into the fact that a woman having sex with you doesn’t magically mean that she loves you, but it was rather hard to avoid falling in love (or exaggerated lust) with the “mistress”. The fucking, kissing, cuddling, and holding hands complicated things even though I knew that I could *never* be her boyfriend.
Heartbreak city when beta guy learns of the other, hotter guys, she’s also been banging (but who aren’t willing to spend as much time with her) while the beta thought she might be becoming or actually that she was his girlfriend.
That’s what the betas get for thinking that women would actually like them. Maybe they should grow up and realize that nobody will ever love them.
Mind you, in such a situation, it just makes sense to whatever little sex you can get if she’s attractive, use condoms, and hope she doesn’t become pregnant. If you’re not addicted to porn, being a fuck buddy to somebody reasonably attractive isn’t too bad.
Believe me, being some hot girl’s back up plan is a million times worse than outright rejection.
Being the back up as a fuck buddy or a friend isn’t half bad when you’re a lonely beta. Being the back up as a boyfriend/husband is insulting.
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Regarding prostitutes: Does all a man need to enjoy sex good looks? Does he not at least need to believe that his partner is actually attracted to him in whatever way, rather than servicing him briefly for money? Do you not feel that you “lose a piece of your soul” to every person you sleep with? That you’re exchanging something important when you have sex with someone?
I know that feeling like the prostitute is attracted to you can actually be important: they have tricks to ensure this appears to be so and a lot of guys say ‘she looked like she wanted it’. It’s an illusion, get over yourself because it’s usually ‘work’ or something worse to her.
I’m finding it difficult to understand a male’s sexuality; although there’re going to be a lot of differences between men.
All the rationalisation for prostitutes in terms of having not to bother smacks of DA’s reasoning for porn. Doesn’t it take away something very valuable for the encounter? Isn’t a man supposed to enjoy the chase? I suppose I can understand acting out one’s dirtiest fantasies with a prostitute as supposedly alpha, something that is very rarely the case and frankly still very… it’s just like using a doll conveniently clothed in human flesh. There’s something so inherently inferior in using someone that way, whatever the prostitute’s motivations for being part of it.
In the same way women are primitively attracted to dominance, are men primitively attracted to subverting and abusing their partner by objectifying them,degrading them and so on? Is it actually a sexually better encounter for a man if he’s dominating someone who “deserves”/”wants” abuse than if he’s doing it with some sweet girl he has affection for?
fluffyfist: I am indeed naive; we have the rest of our lives available for you to “educate” me.
dougjnn:
Thanks for the advice and I have been doing that: thinking about how to teach it to my guy friends, since they probably still think a woman’s the best person to learn from ( a simple mind map involving the basic idea of women being attracted to MEN not BOYS or WOMEN, would probably be the best thing, with clarification about what is manly and what isn’t).
I used to try and bait my exes occasionally into saying ‘girl, that’s too far’ by being extreme or ridiculously moody even before reading about game.
I used to make fun of the way girls would use their attractivenes to get things out of beta no.2; he’d just interpret it as jealousy, when I was trying to tell him that he was being their slave. I think he did get the message despite the interpretation, though.
However: I like to think that working on my potential “hotness” would be better (if just to intimidate unattractive guys into leaving me alone). My problem is that I can want a lot of control, freedom and space: i.e. I can try to encourage dominance by a beta but the moment he does, I reflexively rebel. Which they find just confusing, when there were certain times I did that. If I’m ever with someone, though, I’ll try encouraging their masculinity (i.e. how can I ever have someone else when my kawaiikyo won’t have me?! He’s one guy who definitely doesn’t need amped up masculinity, oh no.).
I don’t know how attractive I am, got a 10 on roissy’s market thingy when I did it a while ago, which makes me a neat zero according to his mental subtraction! Ouch. I did put a pic on hotornot, also a good while ago and I think the rating was 7/6 (I made my friend put her pic on ’cause she wouldn’t acknowledge her looks, and she made me put mine up for comparison).
If an alpha is present: I’m not really a flirty person and thinking about it just makes me freeze up. The only adjective guys I encounter use for me really is ‘clever’ although it does depend on their age in relation to me (I think I get ‘sweet’… and ‘cute’). But I have acted strangely for my personality; I think those were times when I’d detected an alpha vibe. Don’t have to consciously think about it then really!
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TBG:
The question is, will you learn to accept it and work either within its confines or around them, and then take the consequences that come your way?
I will never accept it.
Then kindly do us a favor and get the fuck out of here. If you can’t accept a biological reality about humans and would prefer to live in la la land where up is down then you have nothing to offer the rest of us.
Or: don’t come back here until you have a plan for radical reconstructive genetic surgery of the human race.
P.S. Does self-righteous idealism keep your dick warm at night? Just axin’
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Bhetti–
Keep in mind that when I said consider teaching relationship game to almost attractive enough men, I was talking about the kind of higher beta who could become an alpha if he learned game. I wasn’t talking about middling betas.
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David Alexander–
Oh I think that would be VERY good for you DA, and help you build skills and confidence.
Just keep telling yourself not to fall in one way love, or love with one way fidelity. Since you don’t want to go cuckold. And I think you should really try not to be. Affection is fine.
Regularly screwing a girl will build your T level too. Which will build your desire to go out and find a girl that you find attractive that will love you.
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Bhetti — You’re smart about many things but bizarrely clueless about one basic fact about male psychology/physiology. Men just gotta get off, and on a regular basis. It’s like sneezing — when the pressure builds up it’s something that’s just gotta be done. It’s all well and good to evo-bio-theorize your way to what men like and what ought to mean a lot to them, etc. But sneezing/getting-off will take place regardless, and on a regular basis. And real-relationships-type women … Well, y’know, even the good ones are a lot of trouble. There’s all that sometimes-tedious necessity to get her in the mood and find a shared vibe, etc. Sometimes as a guy you don’t want to go to all that trouble. You just wanna sneeze, y’know?
Never been a user of hookers myself, but I can certainly imagine that having a warm person instead of your own all-too-familiar hand to help you work that sneeze out might have its appeal. And, seriously, we guys don’t always want to be deeply moved, we don’t always want to experience the thrill of the chase, we don’t always want to connect. Sometimes, and maybe even often, we just want to (as in need to) get off and be done with it.
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A-Rod — pathetic beta loser?
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/29823664/
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dougjnn:
There were some very interesting discussions about this issue here a few months ago. These were IMO some of the most interesting threads I’ve read (and participated in) on this blog. (For some reason, it was a period of minimal troll activity and, at the same time, prolific posting by some of the most interesting commenters.) The post titles are “Wedding Ring Game” and “Love in the Time of Game”.
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Oh I think that would be VERY good for you DA, and help you build skills and confidence.
I have porn at my convenience, and I’m much too low ranking for a reasonably attractive woman to deal with. She could easily do much better than me.
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dougjnn
You then lashed out at me to the best of your ability, and refused to talk further. And I of course retaliated. Leaving Sara all mad and deeply hostile towards dougjnn.
You wish!!! OMG.
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Default User
Intuitives = browsing the Internet, following links from one thing to the next.
[The above is a good example of “N” style thinking – a metaphor not a description]
My daughter calls it chasing carrots and I do it way too much!
What are you looking for when you come here and why do you come?
I”m looking mainly for shock and disappointment.
BTW: Are you into the Enneagram?
Oh yeah, honey. It’s one of the many ways I attempt to stay sane. That and venting on roissy. Here’s a few other resources that really float my cork:
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Matters-Osho/dp/0312316305/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213291647&sr=1-2
http://www.abraham-hicks.com/lawofattractionsource/index.php
Roissy hates this stuff.
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omw
oops. Sara, you’re right. I was a five with a four wing, and my husband turned out to be a six. Weird pairing, eh?
You’re the same type as my daughter. Have you looked up famous people who are your type/wing?
http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/enfame.htm
All pairings are weird if you consider the weirdness of human beings in general…how unique we are. Yet there are behavioral similarities. It makes, being a five, you’d enjoy The Enneagram and my daughter does too. She’s taken the study of it quite seriously.
I agree, roissy is quite limited in dividing the world by gender and drawing all kinds of hare-brained conclusions. I’ve tried to turn him on to the Enneagram but he doesn’t like the messenger and besides it would force him to look at himself and most threes are more interested in performing/performance and appearing successful. Realistically looking at himself would be too sobering.
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Vladamir —
I went back to the Wedding Ring Game thread (using google site search to immediately find it), and did a find on the thread for slut. You have a number of very interesting and astute comments that I fully agree with, and that other commenters found impressive and accurate, almost unanimously. But this one is so good that I’m going to quote it in full here, since this thread may still be being read by some people. I never do this, but this one is that good.
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Vladamir–
What it amounts to is that super sluts end up completely ruining themselves for the sexual side of relationships with anyone other than the most amazing alphas. Who they’re never gonna snag.
But I’d say even with them if by some miracle they do snag such a guy despite their sluttiness because they’re also used to variety, and different alphas are thrilling in significantly different ways.
And, if the sexual side of a relationship is ruined, the whole thing generally becomes ruined, especially for high sex drive people, which super slut certainly is. So she’ll become bitch city to her beta, a big time cheat, and these days walk off with lots of divorce theft booty.
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Men REALLY need to take this don’t marry “former” slut advice seriously.
I wouldn’t set the bar as low as 10 as Roissy does though that’s a good goal. It’s just so hard in urban environments. But over thirty and you’re getting into the phenomena that Vlad and I have written about.
Remember, she’s going to lie and her girlfriends will lie for her. Guys who’ve know her won’t though, nearly as much. Her girl enemies won’t lie for her either. Believe the rumours. They’re likely much more accurate than what she tells you.
And don’t give one piss about her refusal to talk about this. You have a RIGHT to know if she wants you to get serious about her. Else just cold shoulder her. But her resistance will be great. Well lots of resistance is a big tell, isn’t it?
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Didn’t mean to include the DA following post in that post of Vlad’s from a several months ago thread that I quoted in full.
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I can see why you find the enneagram so interesting, Sara… now I want to type everyone I know. 😉 Some are SO obvious. My MIL is so Two it’s not even funny. Somehow it makes me feel better that she actually cannot help herself.
My first guess was that my husband was a Nine, but sometimes I forget that his uncanny ability to mesh seamlessly with any group is much more fraught with internal conflict than he tends to let on.
He’s a six with a seven wing. Fun, but meticulously faithful. Can’t beat that, as far as I’m concerned.
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Vlad —
Do you think a relative good girl, who’s had only say 6 sexual partners, but goes off and has one fling of a few months with a real alpha player, has “ruined” herself in the way you describe for real sluts, for a normal higher beta or lesser alpha guy? Yeah I have someone in mind but I’m not going to get that personal, and hope you don’t either.
I don’t for some reason. Or at least not remotely as much as a super slut has ruined herself. Why? Well I just think the general case of higher alpahs won’t have seared inself into her mind nearly as much. There will have been lots of things wrong with that one solid alpha. And lots of things right with her higher beta or lower alpha bf. Hell, the bf might even be better in bed, once they get down to it, just not better at luring skads of females there in the first place.
But … if we all could marry 16yo virgins it would make for a lot more solid and reliable bonding, as that Argentinian guy is wont to tell us from time to time.
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“only six?” Dang!
Man, if I’d known the bar was that generous for Good Girl status, I’d have spent far less time holed up with a stack of etude books.
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ha ha. looky what happen while I was away. Firepower / Hud grabs Kassy by her hair – cracks her ass and roughs her up and the Betard Brigade run to wipe her off when she drops her hanky – at what “that mean nasty Firepower did to me!”
dougjnn – I can actually HEAR your ovaries growing over the interwebz. Don’t contaminate me with your flowing mangina-juice. yuck. Just kidding. You Rock.
I’d have dropped in from my weekend fun to rejoin this debate, but fun is fun. Debate is debate.
Kassy just could be the perfect woman, if she had cookin’ smarts, a shapely ass… and quit injecting “my bf this, my bf that my bf says!” every 3rd paragraph….
I could have been all yours, but I prefer a sense of humor to a sense of hysterics lol. It’s over, miss priss.
now that finefantastic…any chick helping me pump out my Sasha Gray fetishes with her splash of retro PJ Harvey will be fun provided she likes a red ass and avoids post-coital cooing about Art School Chick stuff.
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My MIL is so Two it’s not even funny. Somehow it makes me feel better that she actually cannot help herself.
My first guess was that my husband was a Nine, but sometimes I forget that his uncanny ability to mesh seamlessly with any group is much more fraught with internal conflict than he tends to let on.
He’s a six with a seven wing. Fun, but meticulously faithful. Can’t beat that, as far as I’m concerned.
What is this enneagram drivel, a new version of astrology? Substitute an astrological sign for any of these numbers (“My MIL is so Virgo it’s not even funny…”) and the intellectual content remains unchanged.
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Firepower–DAMN man, I thought we were a perfect match. And now its over.
I thought I gave you my all–You wanted shapely legs–I gave you shapely legs.
You wanted a shapely ass–I gave you a shapely ass.
You wanted cooking smarts–I gave you cooking smarts.
Am I never good enough Firepower? What must I do to prove my undying love for you?
Should I make up an interpretive dance to act out the scenes of this post? That would surely win you over a bit, no?
As for fine fantastic–she does indeed rock.
Do I mention my boyfriend very often? Not on my blog–maybe I need to re-evaluate how often I do that here.
Ok I’m off this post but I wanted to write back to you personally Firepower.
And I still am curious as to who you are…I have inkling I know you in real life. The way you speak…your tone…all WAY too familiar.
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I’m always a little suspicious of pat classification systems, too, but it’s hard to blithely ignore a system with least a little casual description-to-reality correspondence.
Like Game!
Every system has its limits, and reality is often too complex and squirmy to capture with mere words (unless you then make a concentrated effort to ignore all facets of experience that run counter to your belief system!)
But hey, if you are going to talk about human beings at all, it’s helpful to have a set of terms with which to do it.
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KassyK
LoL!
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I’m always a little suspicious of pat classification systems, too, but it’s hard to blithely ignore a system with least a little casual description-to-reality correspondence.
Every system has its limits, and reality is often too complex and squirmy to capture with mere words (unless you then make a concentrated effort to ignore all facets of experience that run counter to your belief system!)
But hey, if you are going to talk about human beings at all, it’s helpful to have a set of terms with which to do it.
This precisely describes why most people have racial prejudices. =)
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lehuster–
It’s a kind of personality test, as Meyers Briggs is, but uses much more fanciful, story like, mystical sorts of terms and imagery. I don’t have any idea how accurate it is. It does seem to have some wisdom behind it though, and perhaps a whole lot.
But girls like these kinds of things. Especially really girly girls tend to. As they often like astrology and or palm reading.
For one thing as owm aludes to, women simply love talking about people and personalities and themselves, their loved ones and their friends — and enemies. It’s the rare woman who doesn’t. New to them frameworks for doing that have a real tendency to be fascinating to women.
It’s not something to fight. It’s something to use or at a minimum indulge.
You could do worse than learning all about it and conversing on its terms. It could be an opener and rapport builder for you some time. Of course it’s not going to all by itself overcome intense betatude if that’s the case.
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nilk
Obviously, then, Sara I, I’m not a woman. Don’t know how I managed 22 hours of hard labour, but I guess I must have fluked it.
Sorry, I thought you were one of the cry baby men here which shows how observant I can be.
I agree about guys who do nothing but bleat and wail and gnash their teeth, but this is about women who go out and deliberately get pregnant because they want a child, irrespective of the man’s stance on things.
What surprises me is that even as woman you don’t “get” that if a man/men uses a woman/women for sex without her conscious consent and knowledge to be used in such a way–regardless of whether she was “asking” for it by being ignorant/needy, assuming his desire for a relationship is the same as hers if that IS the case–that it’s no better or worse than her getting pregnant without his conscious consent.
Both are acting on animal instinctual drives without regard for the other’s humanity or intentions. What is the difference? A woman who has ignorantly allowed herself to be the subject of such emotional abuse from men is usually not going to be uber-considerate of their feelings either; right or wrong and of course there is no “right” about either scenario.
If men (or women) who are looking for sexual partners and nothing else, would just say so, there would not be this vile bitterness from women about being used. If women would make sure that they know the real intentions of (#1 themselves of course) the men they have sex with they would not experience such bitterness. It would take a rare man to simply state they are looking for sex only because it might decrease their chances of getting laid. Instead many use “game” in an effort to avoid such disclosure or discussion; it’s called seduction.
If women would tell men they are looking for a baby daddy instead of leading a man into thinking she’s just an easy lay, men would not be so bitter either. Trust, honesty. open communication would make the world a more lovely place. If men tell women they only want sex and women still have sex with them thinking they will change their minds, they have no one but themselves to blame. Both are acting out of fear. Fear of stating what they really want. In fact many are so afraid they don’t even KNOW what they want. Only what they don’t want when they get THAT.
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Sara I
Maybe you are an “NF” (idealists, identity or harmony seekers, spiritual etc.). I can see how you and roissy might not get along (he being a pragmatic hedonist).
See here: http://www.davidmarkley.com/personality/idealist.htm
I could only take about two minutes of Osho. Maybe he was running some kind of Ross Jeffries NLP like patterning because I certainly found my eyelids becoming heavy. I was afraid if I listened to it all I would be deep in trance.
I am not sure I really get the Law of Attraction stuff. All this talk of “vibrational beings” went over my head (unless shaking with laughter counts).
Am I missing something, is it saying that just thinking about something makes it happen? No action needed? Can I just think myself into being a super-Alpha banger of 10s? Can I just think myself into a new job without sending out resumes?
I understand that we should focus on those things we want, but that normally implies planning and taking some action. Does the Law of Attraction imply I should just concentrate on my desired outcome?
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Sara —
Women seduced by players almost always know there’s a good chance the guy just wants sex, or anyway a short fling rather than a large exclusive commitment. They often HOPE it will be different with them but know it might not be. And sometimes it is different with them, depending on how completely committed to moving on and really high numbers the player is.
In contrast the deception of these predator sluts is complete, rather than ambiguous. The guys in question would no way no how have sex with them if they knew the truth, or had a good inkling about it.
Roissy actually often looks for the kinds of girls he can have a relationship with that lasts for a while. Often a non exclusive one it’s true, from what he says. And sometimes they have for a while with him he has told us.
As well the difference is big money. 18 years of big money. That matters huge. If affects most guy’s ability to afford kids that can fully be his, or more than one, with a woman he wants to settle down with.
In the days when a woman had to be a virgin to attract most attractive men, then her seduction by a player with no intention of marrying her, while certainly heavily her fault, DID have the sort of financial and other full life consequences to her that making a victim sperm donor pay for 18 years does for men. That’s not remotely true anymore in the US and other Western places.
Take away the ability of sluts to get child support, as they used to not be able to not very long ago, and most men would be a whole lot less in arms about the phenomenon. Some would still not be able to stand the idea of a child of these stolen without their will, but this is mostly a programed attitude and belief I think, rather than one steeming from deeply rooted male biological imperatives.
That of course is why the women in the article claim they won’t seek child support from their male victims. But nothing is stopping them from changing their minds at the first moment of financial stress, and besides some or a lot of them are probably straight up lying.
So no Sara your equivalence doesn’t remotely work. It’s a complete fraud.
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Time is money, Doug.
An unprincipled man wastes the best years of a woman’s reproductive life, and an unprincipled woman wastes the best years of a man’s financial life.
I think it’s kind of sweet that they find each other so often.
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Sara 1
It is easy to imagine the bitterness of being female and wasting valuable time on a desirable guy who turned out to be unwilling to commit. But at the start of the relationship did you (the female) have a certain knowledge that he was a keeper? Was anything sexual withheld until you were sure? I mean, if both of you are just taking a test drive, at first, how can one know when one has crossed into “unprincipled” territory in a new relationship? And what if you are the one who wants to bail and he is the one who has bonded? I sense you are over-playing the victim role here.
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Sara
“What surprises me is that even as woman you don’t “get” that if a man/men uses a woman/women for sex without her conscious consent and knowledge to be used in such a way–regardless of whether she was “asking” for it by being ignorant/needy, assuming his desire for a relationship is the same as hers if that IS the case–that it’s no better or worse than her getting pregnant without his conscious consent.”
Sorry, it’s first thing in the morning, but this looks a bit too wordy for me.
If you’re saying that men using women for sex without “conscious consent” via a woman’s neediness is the same as a woman using a man as walking baster the I have to disagree.
The longterm outcomes of a pregnancy far outweigh the outcome of being a one-night stand or a pump and dump or an empty-out, whatever you want to call it.
If a woman gets pregnant, she is the one in control of the situation.
Her man wants her to keep the baby but she doesn’t? Too bad, so sad, off to Planned Parenting we go.
He doesn’t want her to keep the baby? Oh well, he doesn’t have to be involved, just pay some stay away money.
He wants to be involved? Well, sure, but only on these days, and only if you pay some more money.
Or he doesn’t know he’s got a child? Doorbell rings, wife answers the door and there’s a young adult there saying hi, is my dad in? Apparently he knocked up my mum all those years ago, and we’ve done it really hard over the years but now it’s time I got to know him.
As women we don’t act very rationally, and we make decisions that aren’t always in our best longterm interests. Hence the slutting around that the guys here bemoan. Sex when done right is a bucketload of fun, so let’s have some more of it. Settling down is boring, and can be done later.
After sowing a few wild oats, and sometimes those oats come to fruition.
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“If men (or women) who are looking for sexual partners and nothing else, would just say so, there would not be this vile bitterness from women about being used. If women would make sure that they know the real intentions of (#1 themselves of course) the men they have sex with they would not experience such bitterness. It would take a rare man to simply state they are looking for sex only because it might decrease their chances of getting laid. Instead many use “game” in an effort to avoid such disclosure or discussion; it’s called seduction.”
Yes there would be the bitterness. Look at the prevalence of fcukbuddies amongst young people today (OMG I’m old!). Teenager girls who will have sex with near any boy/man that crosses their path, because it’s fun to do, but they still want to meet a nice man.
I had an interesting discussion with one young girl about this – she didn’t know how to use a washing machine and had to be taught how to cook pasta using a jar of carbonara sauce. I tried asking her what she had that a nice guy would want if she didn’t do anything domestic.
Apart from sex, what did she have to offer?
She just didn’t get that, although she’s happy to whine about guys being arseholes. At 17, she’d had 7 partners that I knew of.
It will be interesting to talk to her at 30.
As for men saying that they only want sex, well, they do. Again, look at “hooking up”. Read the myspace and bebo pages of teenagers and young adults.
I’ve got a strong constitution, but I find those really offputting. I’m glad that I’m over 40, and I worry incessantly about how to protect my daughter from that lifestyle.
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“If women would tell men they are looking for a baby daddy instead of leading a man into thinking she’s just an easy lay, men would not be so bitter either. Trust, honesty. open communication would make the world a more lovely place. If men tell women they only want sex and women still have sex with them thinking they will change their minds, they have no one but themselves to blame. Both are acting out of fear. Fear of stating what they really want. In fact many are so afraid they don’t even KNOW what they want. Only what they don’t want when they get THAT.”
Sorry for the long posting. I don’t know how many words I can fit in here.
Men will be bitter, because there are many instances of women changing their minds on the child support and involvement issues. Read the MRA sites. There is a lot of evidence out there if you look for it. Talk to the men you know who are separated with children.
And when you do, try to suspend judgement.
Take a good look at your legal system – it’s worse than ours here, and ours is bad enough.
A woman can change her mind on things like wanting child support, and get it. All it takes is a stat dec or a trip down the aisle at the courthouse.
And then he’s stuffed.
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The girls who play sex-doll till they are 30 are mostly merely pretending they have no maternal instinct. (Though some really don’t.)
They refuse to admit to themselves that they will be regretful if they die single and childless.
Men, of course, love this sort of woman; they figure that is how women ought to be– easy to fuck, attractive, and low-maintenance. Whether it’s a LTR or multiple one-night stands, sex is all just egalitarian fun-n-games, till someone gets knocked up.
When such a woman does get pregnant, she is compelled, for the first time, to face the reality of her own maternal instinct, the driving force behind her own sexuality.
Too bad she doesn’t admit it to herself first, but that’s the price you pay for playing around. Misery!
PUAs lack the comprehensive view of successful family formation that would allow them to really DO anything about it, except bitch and moan about the temerity of bitches to have working uteruses.
I mean, fuck a hysterectomized bitch, you know?
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nilk,
What is a “jar of carbonara sauce?” All you need for pasta alla carbonara is to crack a couple of eggs and dump them in the bowl w/ some parmesan.
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I can’t deal with the MRA dudes; they are so focused on their own petty grievances that they can’t scrape together a vision for a functional human society.
It’s all invective and whining; where is there any room for a woman to be anything but a sterile inhuman fuck-drone?
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LOL, OMW!
The problem is that doctors won’t do a hysterectomy or tie your tubes until you’re around 36-37, or have had children already.
A couple of my friends have found this out – one has never wanted children. Doesn’t like them, has no interest, and no inclination.
It’s just the way she is.
Her doc refused to refer her to a specialist to get her tubes tied until she was in her late 30s because she hadn’t had kids, and he’d known her since she was a child.
The rationale for not sterilising women by op over here is the litigation angle. What happens if you tie her tubes and she changes her mind? She sues the doctor.
It’s not worth the possibility of that happening to medical practitioners with the cost of litigation and insurance these days.
Informed consent it meaningless because nobody wants to accept responsibility for their actions.
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Can’t be true everywhere– a cousin of mine got her tubes tied back in her twenties, about fifteen years back.
She regrets it now, of course, but who cares?
Anyway, if a guy is having sex with women he’s only tenuously connected to, he does indeed run the risk of having any number of less-than-satisfying scenarios play out, but that’s the downside of fucking women you barely know.
All the same things apply to women. So what? Five hundred bucks a month worth of child support isn’t exactly rolling in the cash, ladies– your momma should have told you THAT.
Far as I am concerned, there is no better way to ensure marital harmony and domestic stability than to anchor a marriage in a bedrock of traditional gender roles, extended family support, religion, and a degree of raw ethnic tribalism.
Most people don’t want that, though. It impinges on all our selfish individual desires, which are the end-all of human existence, right?
Let that fashionable urban crowd rot. I cannot feel too sorry for them.
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I can’t deal with the MRA dudes; they are so focused on their own petty grievances that they can’t scrape together a vision for a functional human society.
Good point, OMW, it’s not like their grievances are legitimate at all.
/sarc
I don’t understand why so many people get upset about MRAs having their own sites where they do sit around and bitch. Plenty of women do it.
Wounded Animal, if you’re dealing with someone who can’t turn on a washing machine, cracking eggs is a bit too much of a stretch.
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I’m not upset about it till some dude starts superimposing his ex-wife’s face over mine, as if women are completely interchangeable and as if bitching at them ever got anything done.
Surely at least some percentage of them have legitimate grievances, but their marketing really, really sucks; you’d think if they really were completely normal guys who got shafted by a hopelessly rigged legal system, they would have some ability to package their causes in an effective way.
Hint: Calling every woman who doesn’t synchophantically repeat after you a “hyper feminist” is not a way to get that done.
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OMW, the tube-tying thing has been the experience of my friends over the last 5-6 years, and it was explained to at least 2 of them that even if a woman was sure that she wanted to be sterilised, there was still the possibility she’d change her mind.
Therefore the docs wouldn’t budge.
That was in two states here in Australia – Victoria and Queensland.
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Well, they can still get IUDs– the Mirena is like 99.9 percent effective and lasts for five years, and the Copper T lasts for ten if your friends don’t like the taste of hormones in the bloodstream.
Yawn.
Anyway, I completely agree that people, as a general matter, ought to be able to get sterilized if that’s what they want.
Roissy is old enough to get it done, but won’t: if some bitch gets pregnant and sues him for support, will you still feel sorry for him?
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omw said:
“I can’t deal with the MRA (men’s rights activist) dudes; they are so focused on their own petty grievances that they can’t scrape together a vision for a functional human society.
It’s all invective and whining…”
I didn’t get why we’d need men’s rights activists either. Then I got older and saw what the family courts did to my friends whose wives divorced them.
Even if the wives were cheating, every guy totally reams, the women made false accusations, and some men never got to see their kids again. Yet, their wages were garnished — some to the point of not having any money at all to live on. Often, the women spent their alimony on boyfriends and vacations, like we saw in the case of that guy who dressed up like Santa Claus recently and killed himself and his whole family.
I strongly urge you take a good look at kangaroo family court system before you dis Glenn Sacks and the other men’s rights people.
And this is but one issue they address.
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Then why do I know not a few single custodial dads, if The System is permanently and unforgivably run by our angry lesbian overlords?
Why do I meet broke-ass single moms working crap jobs at Wal-Mart (not that I feel bleedingly sorry for them; life’s often tough when you decide to go it alone with kids.
But they’re not jetting off to San Francisco to sample artisanal cheeses on the largesse from their exes.)
MR proponents are doing a pretty shitty job of marketing their ideas to the great bulk of normal people– I can’t help them with that, and am not personally that interested in wading through a river of hostile shite in hopes of getting to that kernel of golden truth.
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OMW think about it like this guy I know paying 32k a year in “support” Now what if he would of saved that money for the last 8 years what would that have meant for the family? Why people should just pretend there paying child support when they are in a relationship then they might not have to get divorced afterall as they will be way ahead of the power curve. 252,000 dollars almost makes ya insane just thinking about it.
On a positive note my former Supervisor is having his first at the age of 43 and he was trying to have one. Man those sonogram pictures are detailed.
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nilk–
You’re great. It’s so refreshing to read a woman with views like yours on divorce law and child support law, especially American law.
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Gunny —
Disgusting and oppressive. And it’s not even tax deductible.
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Michael Blowhard: The only reason I ever might know an answer is because I try to not be afraid of looking stupid in order to ask the right questions. There’s no reason why I should be able to understand male sexuality, I can only see the actions driven by it and try to extrapolate, which isn’t really objective. And, of course, research and ask. Thanks for shedding some light (and saying I can actually come out with non-bullshit?).
Can any man reading here claim what MB says isn’t completely true for them?
dougjnn: I know what you’re doing. You’re using your hot alphaness to make nice and groom a generation of pro-alpha women 😉
STOP WITH THE DECEPTION! How crippled will we be as modern women if we quit thinking men are pigs?!
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Days of Broken Arrows —
Good for you.
It’s absolutely true that young guys, particularly those who don’t have the easiest time getting attractive women to sleep with them, don’t want to think about what a rough deal marriage and particularly divorce and child support can be for men — in fact almost always is if they have two sticks to rub together and can’t just disappear. They want to think it wouldn’t happen to them because e.g. they wouldn’t cheat. Well that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t happen to them. Not remotely these days.
The truly galling thing as you say is when their wives are the ones who cheat, or decide they want to go off and find a more fulfilling new relationship (which probably means she HAS cheated but managed to conceal it from her husband, as women are more likely to do, but the guy she’s cheated with doesn’t want to marry her).
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Bhetti —
You shameless flirt you. 😉
A kind of guy to keep an eye out for is an engineering guy. A lot of them aren’t wimps but are rather awkward at first with women. I’m talking about the better looking and taller kinds of engineering guys. Likely to be shy and overly nice with women. You could macho this kind of guy up in his interactions with you. Downside is he’s likely to be rather dense about reading you, picking up on emotional signals, and being an effective tease. The teasing might be teachable though.
I think you’re trying to keep yourself a project of mine. 😉
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These links are fascinating. “Married to the Eiffel Tower” – Objectum Sexuals.
The female version of trainspotting/railfans/Star Wars nerds/Trekkies.
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“Bhetti
Regarding prostitutes: Does all a man need to enjoy sex good looks? Does he not at least need to believe that his partner is actually attracted to him in whatever way, rather than servicing him briefly for money? Do you not feel that you “lose a piece of your soul” to every person you sleep with? That you’re exchanging something important when you have sex with someone? ”
Yes all I need to enjoy sex is good looks. Only been in love 3 times. It is the woman’s charateristics and who they are that make me love them in tandem with the sex but not only the sex that is not enough by itself.
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dougjnn:
Well, you can’t use judge about an individual case using only general principles. Personally, I have very high standards for girls I’d consider for a serious relationship, so the girl you describe would likely not qualify. But then, for someone in a less favorable situation, she might be worth a try.
Ultimately, the important thing is how she sees and treats you. Does she look at you with honest admiration and think of you as the best thing to have ever happened to her? Or does she see you as merely the best available substitute for the real thing? You should be able to deduce that from her behavior if you’re careful and prepared to draw unpleasant conclusions without denial in case she misbehaves in bad enough ways.
Trouble is, if that guy was really a high-caliber alpha, and if he also happened to click with her individual preferences very well, the memory of him can be, as you say, seared into her mind even if that relationship/fling was a complete disaster by all objective standards and even if he mistreated her quite badly. However, as I said, you should be able to recognize signs of this if you’re careful enough.
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Vladamir-
I agree that you should be able to tell when you’ve been dating a girl for awhile. The mere words “I love you” don’t cut it. I don’t think “honest admiration” combined with “love you” does either, but that certainly better than affectionate settling.
A word you used on that months ago thread I referenced above is “adoration”. I think that captures it clearly. A girl who feels it has it all over her face. It’s a wonderful, beautiful thing. It basically requires that you’ve blown her away.
I wasn’t asking for me though or how a guy can tell if she has been ruined for him, given what he can bring. I was asking in sort of a predictive way. But you answered with your views on that too.
I’m not quite as gloomy as you are again if it’s been limited.
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omw:
“Then why do I know not a few single custodial dads, if The System is permanently and unforgivably run by our angry lesbian overlords?”
Me: Then why do I NEVER meet anyone who does drugs? Seriously I don’t!
The reason is because our perceptions of the world are colored by whom we choose to associate with. That doesn’t reflect reality.
A good example of this is when Richard Nixon won the 1972 presidential election in a landslide. Supposedly, the New Yorker’s film critic Pauline Kael said of this “But how?!! Everyone I know voted for McGovern!!”
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Thursday–
I don’t agree with this, or anyway agree as you rather imply that this is primally as intense for women as for men.
In the US of A I do think it’s as intense for women as men, when you’re getting to serious settling down relationships (but not so much before, esp. recently. Sharing of alphas by dating them and only them while the alphas aren’t only her, etc.)
But I think that’s largely cultural. The US being the most extreme on women’s militancy about the necessity to divorce upon discovery adultery, no matter what, in the world.
Don’t get me wrong. I do think women WANT male exclusivity all else being equal. They just will trade that away for an alpha enough guy (status, masculinity/game, money, looks), if their culture lets them not to mention encourages them to.
Pretty much only submissive males feel the same way. Mostly older greatly declined in T submissive males in this highly encouraging of male submissiveness hyper feminist current American culture of ours. It’s a small minority.
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The US being the most extreme on women’s militancy about the necessity to divorce upon discovery adultery, no matter what, in the world.
I guess I could qualify as the submissive male here, and I view cheating as something wrong, but I’d argue for either sex to leave in case of cheating since it’s a sign that the marriage was broken and pointless. When you offer to marry somebody, you take an oath not to cheat, and if you can’t fulfil that oath, you shouldn’t get married in the first place.
OTOH, I know that my dad cheated on my mom twice, but I don’t hate him for it, and in a long-term sense, I’m glad that my mom didn’t divorce him as it would have made our lives a living hell.
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“Roissy is old enough to get it done, but won’t: if some bitch gets pregnant and sues him for support, will you still feel sorry for him?”
Yes I would. I would also feel sorry for the child, and for the woman, since she’s got no idea of what she’s getting into.
And with Roissy being Roissy, do you think he’ll just roll over and play nice?
There will be tears before bedtime most nights if it goes down that path, and that’s a damned shame.
Especially for the child.
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Then why do I know not a few single custodial dads, if The System is permanently and unforgivably run by our angry lesbian overlords?
Why do I meet broke-ass single moms working crap jobs at Wal-Mart (not that I feel bleedingly sorry for them; life’s often tough when you decide to go it alone with kids.
OMW, there are more single custodial dads out there, true, but you also now have a higher prevalence of PAS and SAID.
Because of activism by men and several decades of sociological studies, some courts are leaning towards trying to ensure that children and fathers get more time together, or actually consider the “best interests of the child” over the mother’s issues.
This means that you are getting some seriously pissed women who do take revenge through the courts.
It’s also in the best interest of the State government to get child support money as it often gets matched with funds from the Feds. It’s a part of the Social Security Act over there, if I recall, but I’ve lost the link to it. Apologies for that.
Speaking as a broke-ass single mum, there are arseholes out there of both genders – it’s just that the women and their suffering get all the attention, and men who get beaten up by their women, or reamed by the courts in custody/alimony cases are told to man up or just deal with it.
When they do start to take some action, even as simple as setting up a forum to find if there’s anyone else out there (surprise! there are lots!), then they get ragged on for being whiny bitches.
In situations like this, men can’t win.
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You’re great. It’s so refreshing to read a woman with views like yours on divorce law and child support law, especially American law.
Thanks, Dougjnn. 🙂 It’s nice to be able to discuss stuff with people who get it.
I’ve got a good library here on this stuff – Stephen Baskerville, George Gilder, Patricia Pearson – and plenty of links. There’s a lot of information out there and I’ve been following it for years.
For a very good primer on how the system works, Alec Baldwin’s book, A Promise To Ourselves is your starting point. Even if you think politically he’s a total tool, he’s done a good job of explaining how PAS works, and how the court system can and does work against the non-custodial (majority male) parents.
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OMW-
I don’t think that any young men should get it done, for the same reason that I don’t think any young woman should have her tubes tied. There’s a good chance they’ll change their minds later on and want to have their own bio children. Genes matter. A lot.
When valved vasectomies become available outside clinical trials in Australia and I think India, that will be another matter.
If there aren’t big downsides, like harming the sperm over time, and it’s not too expensive, I think one whole hell of a lot of men would go for that. Especially men who have a considerable amount of casual sex. But even men who don’t so much but don’t want to be “oopsed” by a LTR gf. I certainly would and would have when much younger.
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