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Chateau Heartiste

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« Eluding ‘I Have A Boyfriend’
Plausible Apocalypse »

All The Lonely Cougars

March 25, 2009 by CH

I’m never surprised when another study comes out confirming the Poon worldview. I’m that omniscient. Thanks to Days of Broken Arrows for passing along this Boston Globe article called “The Myth of Ashton” about dating events specifically targeted at cougars:

Maureen Trickett, an event organizer for 8minuteDating.com, had an idea based on all the hype surrounding younger men dating older women. She decided last year to plan an event specifically for that demographic – a night of speed dating for women-of-a-certain-age and the boyish men who love them.

Trickett posted the event online, and women quickly signed up. But the men – they were slow to show interest. After only six men registered, the event was canceled.

“I need eight men,” Trickett explained. “If I don’t get eight, the system cancels the event.”

Maureen Trickett could have saved herself a lot of time and energy if she read this blog. On the other hand, maybe not. That would require facing reality.

Trickett decided it was worth a second try. She set up another speed dating event for a recent Sunday afternoon at Tommy Doyle’s in Kendall Square, this time for older women and younger men, as well as older men and younger women. The room would be split in half – age-inappropriate on both sides.

Self delusion is an unlimited resource. See: Just about every single social policy since 1960.

But again she had a shortage of younger men. The “cougar event,” as Trickett was calling it, was canceled.

And Nelson went “Ha haaw!”

The older men/younger women event went on as planned, but only because Trickett waived the fee for a few women so that they’d sign up and the numbers would be even.

Older men with younger women is much more natural than younger men with older women. While women are suspicious of older men’s motives and station in life, they are at least willing to give the sophisticated gents a chance to pitch themselves. Waiving the fee for men at the cougar event still would have resulted in few men except the desperate loser dregs showing up.

Despite what magazines and tabloids might suggest, Trickett said, despite all the talk of cougar culture, men still want to date younger women, and older women . . . well, their options are limited.

If you’re taking your cues from mass media, you’re hopeless. Magazines and tabloids serve to perpetuate the pretty lies. Else they wouldn’t sell.

Sure, Demi Moore broke a mold, and I know a few couples – family members and friends of friends – who represent the highly publicized demographic of older women and younger men, but the dating industry will tell you that for the most part that demographic is a myth.

If you arrange your life with an eye on the exceptions rather than the rules, you deserve the sorrow, loneliness and failure coming your way. Demi Moore-Ashton Kutcher is a one in a million oddity. 99% of 40+ women aren’t in the ballpark of Demi’s looks, and 99% of men with Ashton Kutcher’s fame, looks and money won’t date washed up broads like Demi when there is a world of hotter, younger girls available.

“With men dating women, it tends to be up to six years younger but it will only be up to two years older.”

And why is that?

“Guys tend to have unrealistic expectations,” said [Mark] Brooks, who bragged that he is one of the mythical Ashton Kutcher-types (he recently dated someone nine years older than him).

Mark Brooks is your typical feeble-minded betaboy who licks the crusty anal dirt of his feminist overlords and begs for more. How do we know this? One, he dates an older woman and is proud of it. Two, he thinks the reason men prefer to date younger women has to do with unrealistic expectations. No, Mark, that’s not it. Men date younger women because they are biologically impelled to seek the love and sex of women who show healthy signs of fertility. No doubt Mark is highly jealous of guys like me dating all the young babes he covets from afar as his old lady slaps his face with her droopy tits.

Those HurryDate age ranges mirror what most men ask for online. I asked Kate Bilenki, a spokeswoman for Plentyoffish.com, a dating website with 10 million members, if she’s ever seen a male profile call for an older woman. “In my experience, no, I can’t say that I have,” she said.

Brutal.

Bilenki adds another depressing tidbit: “For every 55-year old male, there are three 55-year-old women.”

Soul ripping.

Why are there cougars if it’s such a hellish existence? Some cougars were too unattractive in their prime mating years to get a decent man to commit to them. Some are divorced and overestimated their competitive value on the sexual market as older versions of themselves. Some have given up attracting the men they really want (i.e. older men with means and options who don’t want them) and have chosen the pathetic life of offering their aged, floppy pussies free of charge to horny younger guys who just want to dump a quick fuck in any available hole, no muss no fuss.

Then there are the women who became cougars because of their own stupid choices. These are the sad detritus of former urban slut machines; the women who spent their valuable youth hopping from one alpha cock to another only to wake up a day late and a wedding ring short in their early 30s wondering why the alphas no longer look at them with lust in their eyes. Now, even the beta males don’t want them. They are forced to settle, and settle hard. If they can.

Here’s a juicy irony: The anti-aging industry that cougars cling to like life support is the brainchild of betas. Those same dull, socially awkward nerds the cougars ignored when they were kittens are busily inventing the science and technology that may one day grant them a reprieve from the horror of fading beauty.

If the betas disappear, well… so do the cougars’ hopes.

Which way do you think America is heading?

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Posted in Hitting The Wall, Ugly Truths | 269 Comments

269 Responses

  1. on March 25, 2009 at 12:05 pm Hardcore

    It’s funny, sad, and predictable to watch girls in their late-20s who are in relationships and facing the event horizon of sexual irrelevance make the full court press on their boyfriends for the wedding ring. Sadder still are the beta tools who accept these ultimatums. Do they not understand that as soon as they drive the car off the lot, it starts depreciating in value? Suckers.

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  2. on March 25, 2009 at 12:09 pm Chuck

    I think cougars and milfs, as sex objects coveted by younger men, are a figment of the porn industry. While milf porn fulfilled some sort of demand by porn-viewers, it was also cinematic cemetary for the dilapidated snatches of 1980s and 1990s porn stars.

    Milf porn : Porn :: Wal-mart greeter : Normal workforce.

    Granted, when I was younger, I always wanted to bang older women, but that’s mainly because I thought they were sexually explorative, and the thought of an older woman, who *should* have “better” options than a nerdy 18-20 year old giving it up to my ass was compelling.

    I truly think the large numbers of cougars etc. in bars and clubs is a case of supply creating its own demand. Given the high divorce numbers and the party attitude that is now considered cool for 35+ year-old women, there’s no wonder that there is a supply shock to the market. Once this shock dies down, and I believe it has or will soon, the cougar phenomena will pass.

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  3. on March 25, 2009 at 12:12 pm Steve Lurkel

    excellent piece.

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  4. on March 25, 2009 at 12:13 pm lurker

    Roissy, you missed this tidbit by the feminazi writer of the article:

    “At the recent 8minuteDating party that had older men hunting for younger women, Trickett joked that she wished she could have hosted the party with the folks who were actually enthusiastic about signing up – the older women and the older men. Maybe they would have shown up, discovered that the younger daters were no-shows, and been forced to go on the speed dates with one another – people their own age.

    “I’d love to do that with them all, just to see their faces,” Trickett said.

    Me too.”

    —-Spoken like a true harridan with no clue about reality.

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  5. on March 25, 2009 at 12:19 pm lurker

    Chuck, I think the “MILF” porn comes from teenage fantasies about being seduced by 28-year old sisters/aunts of high school girls. As most high school girls do not have truly mature bodies (for the most part) and may be hesitant to a beta high school boy to swallow/get spanked/engage in 3some, the MILF porn took off.

    Now I like MILF porn, but only to relive the whore-next-door-on-call fantasy of my teenage years. Plus many of those older stars look 1000 times better than actual cougars.

    Ashton, ps, is a total beta boy bitched around by Demi.

    I currently have a long-term courgar desperately chasing me after a sex-only fling we had going ended. 39-42 years old, and yet still talks about “the children she’ll have some day.” Spent most of her life “working on her career” and “being strong.” It’s nothing like porn.

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  6. on March 25, 2009 at 12:22 pm Carl Sagan

    Good blog post. Straight and to the point.

    The thing about cougars is that they are pretty easy to pick up for alpha males. If you have any game it shouldn’t be very difficult at all to pick up a cougar. The reason being that these women KNOW they are finished. They are just desperately clamoring for attention from younger males. They want to still feel desirable. I can’t really say this is pathetic behavior. It’s just humans being human. They want to feel like they still “have it” when in reality they don’t.

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  7. on March 25, 2009 at 12:29 pm Firepower

    It’s ironic – and twistedly hilarious – that females “fall” for The Myth of Ashton. What with all that bitching they did on The Myth of Donald fucking Marla Maples, Melony Knobb or any other power guy nailing progressively younger trophy ass.

    Only desperate betas – and childish manboys at that – want to fuck cougars.

    They have mommy issues bc that’s who raised them.

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  8. on March 25, 2009 at 12:31 pm GJ

    One of your best lines:

    “If you arrange your life with an eye on the exceptions rather than the rules, you deserve the sorrow, loneliness and failure coming your way.”

    So true in every aspect of life. Everyone wants to think they are a special snowflake who will beat the odds.

    Statistically… you won’t. But society and the media is more interested in playing up the lucky ones who do beat the odds–be it lottery winners–as opposed to habitual gamblers ruining lives– or cougars who score Ashton Kutcher, as opposed to cougars who die alone and get eaten by their 20 cats etc.

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  9. on March 25, 2009 at 12:31 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    One of the worst legacies of Sex and the City is that it made Cougars bolder and more delusional than ever. It also created a mindset where cougardom was no longer just an unhappy state a woman ended up in but rather a wonderful state for women to aspire to. Even worse, after Sex and the City theatrical movie cougars now believe that not only can they fuck their lives away until their 40s, they can also find a Mr. Big alpha type to “see the light” and dump their 20something model playthings in favor of marrying them. I tell my female friends that in real life Big would NEVER have chosen old, horse-face SJP but they refuse to believe me.

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  10. on March 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm PA

    By chance I saw Demi’s “enhancement” job. It looks like something a common stripper would have gotten herself, not a Holywood superstar.

    Demi Moore was very attractive in her shy good-girl roles (Blame it on Rio, Ghost, A Few Good Men).

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  11. on March 25, 2009 at 12:34 pm Chuck

    when i was in scottsdale for business last year, i went to a club called “barcelona”. anyone heard of it?

    before going i had heard it was a cougar bar. we don’t have cougar bars where i’m living, so it was interesting to see. the dance floor consisted of 40-ish year old women, swaying to some techno beat they had never heard before. they were dressed to the nines, complete with saggy asses and exposed mud-baked chests.

    it was pretty pathetic. most of the women, i could tell, had been hot at *some* point in the past, but that point had come and gone with the “macarena”.

    the women were there early and had become sloshed by the time i arrived around 10. they were acting more drunk than the drunk 20 somethings that were there. the ones that were dancing with guys, guess what demographic the guys fell into? yeah, they were brothas: sorry O! old chicks need dark meat too.

    it was truly one of the saddest bar experiences of my life. i compare it to the time i went to the humane society to look for my lost dog.

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  12. on March 25, 2009 at 12:34 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    <blockquoteHere’s a juicy irony: The anti-aging industry that cougars cling to like life support is the brainchild of betas.

    I’m curious about this statement. Is it true? I don’t know anyting about the makeup industry but how do we know it’s the brainchild of beas?

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  13. on March 25, 2009 at 12:35 pm Todd

    Ashton Kutcher is a beta?

    LikeLike


  14. on March 25, 2009 at 12:37 pm Tarl

    Well, of course, why shouldn’t we extrapolate one young man’s willingness to date Demi Moore into a general social trend?

    After only six men registered, the event was canceled.

    I guarantee you those six guys were morbidly obese World of Warcraft addicts.

    Despite what magazines and tabloids might suggest, Trickett said, despite all the talk of cougar culture, men still want to date younger women, and older women . . . well, their options are limited.

    Yes, their options are limited to cats, vibrators, and buckets of ice cream.

    “Guys tend to have unrealistic expectations,” said Brooks, who bragged that he is one of the mythical Ashton Kutcher-types (he recently dated someone nine years older than him). “Most men are too busy looking at magazines and not busy enough looking in the mirror.”

    The unrealistic expectations seem to be those of the event organizers who incomprehensibly fail to understand that all men, everywhere, desire easily impressed hot young women.

    “I’d love to do that with them all, just to see their faces,” Trickett said.

    All you would see is their backs, rapidly retreating out the door.

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  15. on March 25, 2009 at 12:38 pm PA

    One of the worst legacies of Sex and the City is that it made Cougars bolder and more delusional than ever.

    What were Carrie’s words of wisdom at the end of the S&tC movie? (yes, I saw it and enjoyed the guilty pleasure)

    Something about how a girl in her 20s should have fun and experience things (hah!) and in her 30s do somethign else, and in her 40s find love? Don’t remember the exact recipe, but it was the exact opposite of good advice to young girls.

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  16. on March 25, 2009 at 12:40 pm agnostic

    Ashton Kutcher ends up with sagging and deflated Demi Moore while Macauly Culkin steals the ripe and smoldering Mila Kunis — sick fucking world.

    I’d only marry an older woman if she were incredibly rich, with a nice home in Potomac or Brookline, and had no delusions about my banging PYTs discreetly on the side.

    Then again, it’s even better to find a young trust-funder who feels guilty about her inherited wealth, and take her once she gets control of the money at age 21.

    I’ll have to make sure I’m a professor at a rich kid school so that I’ll have plenty of them in my intro classes to choose from.

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  17. on March 25, 2009 at 12:45 pm Chuck

    “Something about how a girl in her 20s should have fun and experience things (hah!) and in her 30s do somethign else, and in her 40s find love? Don’t remember the exact recipe, but it was the exact opposite of good advice to young girls.”

    What’s the golden age though for a woman to settle down? What is the most optimum point for her to have her fun but still be able to reproduce relatively easily and have a fulfilling family life? I’m just curious.

    Something is telling me the magic number is 27.

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  18. on March 25, 2009 at 12:47 pm Obsidian

    Well gentlemen, might as well toss my hat in the ring here.

    I must say that I take a slightly different take on this than my good friend Roissy, for while I concede his general points, I must also say that I’ve seen things play out in differing ways as well.

    It has been my experience that White Men tend to place a higher premium on youth more than do Black Men, on average. Now, please, don’t anyone go hogwild here-I’m not saying all the Brothas are out humping Grandma. What I’m saying is that Black Men as a rule, seem to be a bit more relaxed on the age thing.

    I have no problem with any of it on either side, just noting what I’ve observed for those so inclined. For my own personal testimony, some of my best sexual experiences have been with Women on the other side of 30, starting w/a Mocha-colored Scorpio back when I was like 20. Talk about getting your nose blown open. Whew. What a Hot Summer, indeed.

    But yea, I’m with R & T-Raw and others, the “cougar” scene as its depicted is a bit much and doesn’t serve the ladies well. One should age gracefully, especially Women, and act appropriately. What Chuck described at the cougar club sounds a bit sad.

    Ok, that’s it. Holla

    O

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  19. on March 25, 2009 at 12:47 pm Grim

    Magic number? 21. Anything after that is just 50 dicks too many.

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  20. on March 25, 2009 at 12:52 pm PA

    What’s the golden age though for a woman to settle down?

    22-23. In our society, in any case.

    Any younger, and she won’t know what she wants. Much older than that, and you’ll be getting other guys’ discarda along with 2-3 superalphas she slept with about whom she’ll never stop thinking.

    That age can be considerably higher, even into her early 30s, if she had been a genuinely good girl and you are the first guy she is in love with.

    My sweetspot age is 27, but that’s just me being biased 🙂

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  21. on March 25, 2009 at 12:52 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    What were Carrie’s words of wisdom at the end of the S&tC movie? (yes, I saw it and enjoyed the guilty pleasure)

    Nothing to feel guilty about, I think it’s a very well-written and acted show, and I always loved how it showed the true cnsequences of betadom versus alphadom when it had the love triangle between Carrie, Big and Aidan. It just sucks when women start believing the messages about age and start thinking it reflects reality.

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  22. on March 25, 2009 at 12:52 pm PA

    27 for a girl I’ve already been with for a number of years, to be clear.

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  23. on March 25, 2009 at 12:55 pm Anonymous

    Guys want younger women, but younger women, except for the golddigger-types, don’t prefer older(more than 5+ year) guys. So it seems to the same situation as cougars, except for the fact that most women are pretty happy with men their own age. Guys hit the wall pretty fast too, and anyone who doesn’t think so should comb their hair to hide their massively thinning harline, adjust their pants to hide the sagging paunch, and continue on, self-delusion unabated. While the young girls happily take your drinks, bat their eyelashes at you to keep the drinks coming, and call you an old pervert when you turn away.

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  24. on March 25, 2009 at 12:56 pm Thursday

    What I’m saying is that Black Men as a rule, seem to be a bit more relaxed on the age thing.

    Is this due to black men having more relaxed standards or is it due to the fact that black women tend to age better than white women, assuming they don’t get fat?

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  25. on March 25, 2009 at 12:56 pm PA

    I always loved how it showed the true cnsequences of betadom versus alphadom

    It’s always refreshing when a show or a movie does this. “Two and Half Men” has many such shining moments, depending on who appears to have been writing the script — as some episodes are written from a doctrinnaire feminist perspective.

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  26. on March 25, 2009 at 1:01 pm ironrailsironweights

    If a woman finds herself single at, say, 45, cougarhood isn’t necessarily worse than her other options. Single men her own age are likely to want younger women. Older men might find her acceptable, but there may not be enough to go around. In addition, if she gets involved with a man more than about a decade older than her, there’s a significant chance that in the near future she’ll have to deal with his declining health.

    Peter

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  27. on March 25, 2009 at 1:04 pm Thursday

    That age can be considerably higher, even into her early 30s, if she had been a genuinely good girl and you are the first guy she is in love with.

    The good girls who are single in their late 20s to early 30s tend to be there for one of two reasons:

    1. Their standards are too high.
    2. They have been in a long term relationship which ended.

    The disadvantages of #1 are obvious, and with #2 she may have been in deeply love with the guy, which makes you her second choice. While there are some cool girls who are a bit older, I have found that dating girls in the 23-26 range is best for me. PA is right that before then girls tend to be flakey and full of needless drama.

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  28. on March 25, 2009 at 1:06 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    There are two types of cougars. The ones who did the marriage and kids things, and end up single later on because of divorce or death who decide they’re well off financially and their kids are grown and they have done marriage and have nothing to prove. These chicks embrace cougardom with no illusions or expectations other than catching up on the good times they missed while younger, married and raising kids. They’re not expecting to marry a young Ashton, they’re just enjoying life. More power to them.

    The other type of cougar is the one who never got married or had kids because she thought she had all the time in the world and wanted to slut around and fuck alpha cocks into her 30s and 40s, and then feels entitled to the pick of the litter when she gets older, expcting men to be lining up to choose her over young girls and marry her now that she’s sowed her oats. And is bitter and outraged when it doesn’t happen. This is the type of cougar I loathe.

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  29. on March 25, 2009 at 1:11 pm Gunslingergregi

    “agnostic
    Ashton Kutcher ends up with sagging and deflated Demi Moore while Macauly Culkin steals the ripe and smoldering Mila Kunis — sick fucking world.”

    Demi was looking bad without the makeup and the sex in the citi chick got dumped lol Chick down the hall has star’s all over her desk I can’t help looking at the cover.

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  30. on March 25, 2009 at 1:11 pm kam

    it’s this kind of post that makes me wonder why they aren’t more male (dressed as male!) prostitutes out there. because at the end of the night, those cougars will find someone, somewhere?

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  31. on March 25, 2009 at 1:13 pm Carl Sagan

    Ya, just to clarify my post above where I mentioned I don’t find cougars/older women pathetic, it is the first kind, which Ricky Raw mentioned, that I don’t find pathetic.

    These women may even be married and have kids but still miss the thrill of being with a younger alpha male.

    Can’t blame them.

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  32. on March 25, 2009 at 1:16 pm Chuck

    PA:

    This gem from Jeff Buckley sums it up perfectly:

    “Well I feel too young to hold on,
    and I’m much too old to break free and run”

    —————————————————————-

    I think Seinfeld is a good example of alphadom versus betadom. Jerry is always with a hot chick. He exhibits more Game and more alpha tendencies. George on the other hand is neurotic, short, bald, and fat. He always has self-confidence issues and exhibits many beta traits.

    The one episode where George was the bad boy, complete with leather jacket, he exhibited alpha, and had hot sex.

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  33. on March 25, 2009 at 1:17 pm Gunslingergregi

    The divorced cougar thing. I think it is the girlfriends that do kind of get them to divorce sometimes. Like they will complain about their marriage to there female friends and there female friends are like wow that sooo badd you deserve soooo much better than that. Pump their head up. So they trash the marriage and then find out that dam finding better grass on the other side is harder than a mutherfucker and maybe there was a reason their female friend never got dick and was the size of a house and had no one else, and wanted to ruin her marriage.

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  34. on March 25, 2009 at 1:20 pm Obsidian

    Thursday,
    Good question. Could be a mix of both, quite frankly, but on the first point it seems pretty clear that on average and all things being equal, Black women tend to age more gracefully than do White women.

    O

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  35. on March 25, 2009 at 1:21 pm Flashman

    Anonymous:

    Nice try. I’m mid-30’s; before exiting the scene, the median age of women I dated to the point of sex was 9 years below mine (median!). And I am a regular looking guy, with no gold to be dug. Younger women are simply attracted to the confidence, charm, and “done this before” attitude that older men have. And we are attracted to younger women because a larger percentage of them are hot. Roissy is not making this stuff up. To the guys crossing 30: stay in shape, stay social, and you will dominate like you never have.

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  36. on March 25, 2009 at 1:26 pm Sara I

    Cougars are pathetic, but why go on and on about it? I would think you’d find something more interesting to write about. There are probably as many men who have pissed away their youth and beauty chasing scags and whores and find themselves with few options that don’t require Viagra to get excited about. But then I don’t imagine you’d be the one to bring that up.

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  37. on March 25, 2009 at 1:27 pm boru

    black don’t crack, baby!

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  38. on March 25, 2009 at 1:28 pm Chuck

    “To the guys crossing 30: stay in shape, stay social, and you will dominate like you never have.”

    30 is a very crucial age in social dynamics. i’m coming up on it in a few years, and it’s ever-looming presence is always on my radar. i’m anxious about it, wondering, if i am single at the time, what my mating/dating prospects will be. i would ideally like to be able to pull 20-24 y.o. but, all else being equal, it’s harder at 30 than at 27.

    i guess that’s part of the reason guys worry about 30 more than 40, partially because they already have a family in place by 40 but also because they haven’t just come out of a decade, the 20s, of near complete freedom, drunken debauchery, and sexual depravity. 40 y.o. have lowered expectations.

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  39. on March 25, 2009 at 1:28 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Guys want younger women, but younger women, except for the golddigger-types, don’t prefer older(more than 5+ year) guys. So it seems to the same situation as cougars, except for the fact that most women are pretty happy with men their own age.

    It’s funny, when I was a much younger guy, I managed to convince myself of the same fiction you espouse above. I find it’s aging women and feminsts and young guys who feel the biggest need to buy into this lie. But it’s simply not true.

    I will give you this though, women are MUCH less tolerant of traits like bad game, low confidence, immaturity, inexperience and betadom from an older guy than from a younger guy. So if it comes dow to a slacker, unconfident beta in his 20s and a slacker unconfident beta in his mid-30s or older, then the younger guy probably has an advantage and the older guy’s age works against him.

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  40. on March 25, 2009 at 1:33 pm ironrailsironweights

    Speed dating still exists? I thought it was so 2003.

    Peter

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  41. on March 25, 2009 at 1:35 pm lurker

    Todd:
    Ashton Kutcher is a beta?

    —Yep. Married an over-the-hill plastic star and lets her go on national tv and make fun of his sexual prowress. Then makes a whiny, beta video about loud construction workers next door and instantly gets shot down by the interwebs.

    Oh, and also only got famous for looks, not talent (was 5th banana on 3rd rate sitcom), and only survives celebrity-wise as the muse of young-20s chicks ( a la another talentless hack, Dane Cook).

    Total beta.

    Obsidian:

    “Black women tend to age more gracefully than do White women. ”

    —Can’t agree less. Black women at 35 look 50. Haggard, tired, overweight, and bored. Perhaps its because they have kids so early, or end up being poorer.

    Black men seem to have a thing for older white women, however. Long story, but I once met a “working girl” in nyc–not professionally, but socially. She was in her 40s, and none too sprightly.

    Once she opened up to me (again, long story) she told me how black men would request her specificially. She was surprised, but many said they had a fantasy about, specifcially, an older white woman. No idea where it came from, but hey, it paid her bills.

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  42. on March 25, 2009 at 1:45 pm Jerry

    It seems that Roissy is running out of stuff to write about.

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  43. on March 25, 2009 at 1:49 pm alias clio

    Alpha males, your window of opportunity, age-wise, is about 35-45 nowadays. (Once it would have started at 30 but 30 is in effect a “kid” today.)

    In spite of missing out on the chance to have children, I’m not sorry not to have married at age 22-27. First, the men I knew then, and I include the betas as well as the alphas here, were not interested in settling down. They were children of the 1960s-70s; they wanted to party, play sports, travel, date as much as their sexual cachet allowed them. They did NOT want to commit to a career, get married, and have children. And men still thought of “feminism” as being on their side because, in the days before the whole anti-porn/date rape/harassment crusade had begun, feminism meant “independent” women and easy sex to them.

    Second, it wasn’t a good time to get married. No one appeared to be doing so in my age and social group. I was 30 before I knew any married people of my own age in my circle.

    So try to remember that older women can be victims of historical circumstance. And remember too that most of them are at home with their cats, or out with a man of their own age whom they met at work or in real social events, or playing with their children.

    I agree that delaying marriage indefinitely is bad for women, but there are small signs – not yet trends, not statistically significant – that things might be about to change.

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  44. on March 25, 2009 at 1:50 pm Anon

    I just hit 30 and things have never been better. I’m in pretty good shape and look a few years shy of 30. Girls under 25 are extremely easy for me.

    Things really started picking up at age 27-28 when I began to look mature and masculine while still young – in fact, male models tend to be from 27-33, so I guess that says something about the peak for male looks.

    I figure I have at least another 5 GREAT years ahead of me, and after that maybe 5 okay years if I have tight game.

    After that, maybe I’ll have to turn to Asian chics. Young white girls are infinitely hotter than young Asian girls, but this is actually reversed the older both groups get.

    I know Asian girls who are 35-36 and are almost as hot as they were when they were 25. Thin bodies, taut skin, smooth – few white girls can claim that at age 36.

    Too bad Asians just aren’t that hot, as a rule. Well, for the next decade or so I think I’m okay with young white girls.

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  45. on March 25, 2009 at 1:51 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Can’t agree less. Black women at 35 look 50. Haggard, tired, overweight, and bored. Perhaps its because they have kids so early, or end up being poorer.

    I agree and disagree. I think both you and Obsidian are right in a way. Agree that many black women, when you include the poor, overweight ones who had kids early, age very badly. But I think if you isolate to compare along the same weight, childbearing ages and socioeconomic factors, the black women will be shown to age better. Like fat, black poor woman with lots of kids young a substance abuse problems will still age better than a fat, poor white woman with lots of kids young and substance abuse problem. The problem is, there is a MUCH higher rate of obese, substance abuse teen moms in the black community than the white.

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  46. on March 25, 2009 at 1:53 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Can’t agree less. Black women at 35 look 50. Haggard, tired, overweight, and bored. Perhaps its because they have kids so early, or end up being poorer.

    I agree and disagree. I think both you and Obsidian are right in a way. Agree that many black women, when you include the poor, overweight ones who had kids early, age very badly. But I think if you isolate to compare along the same weight, childbearing ages and socioeconomic factors, the black women will be shown to age better. Like a fat, black poor woman with lots of kids young and substance abuse problems will still age better than a fat, poor white woman with lots of kids young and substance abuse problems. The problem is, there is a MUCH higher rate of obese, substance abuse teen moms in the black community than the white.

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  47. on March 25, 2009 at 1:55 pm Carl Sagan

    Black women, on average, age MUCH better than whites.

    Melanin in the skin protects against UV damage. It’s only natural that they would tend to look more youthful compared to their pale skinned counterparts.

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  48. on March 25, 2009 at 1:58 pm gig

    . because at the end of the night, those cougars will find someone, somewhere?

    women want male attention by any men, alpha or beta. but sex they restrict to alphas. the male prostitute serves mainly gays.

    “Black women tend to age more gracefully than do White women. ”

    true

    but younger women, except for the golddigger-types, don’t prefer older(more than 5+ year)

    self-deluded. the 7-years rule is there to prove(man should date women no younger than half their age plus 7==a guy of 25 should date girls no younger than 25/2 + 7 = 19,5). The age gap grows half a year per year.

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  49. on March 25, 2009 at 2:00 pm Obsidian

    You know, there’s this alarming tendency to, whenever Black folks are discussed, that the only ones mentioned are the ghetto ones. As if there just aint no other kind of Black American that exists.

    W/all due respect T-Raw, what you initially said about Black Women above I could just as easily say about tons of White Women. Many of them don’t take care of themselves at all and are easily as overweight. Yes?

    So, let’s do a straight up apples to apples comparison. Let’s not take Shaniqua from the Maury show and compare her to some White hottie in the boonies. Talk about putting a thumb on the scale. Sheesh! 😉

    O

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  50. on March 25, 2009 at 2:01 pm Duke Leto Atredies

    “Black women tend to age more gracefully than do White women”

    Oh God, not this topic AGAIN. Does Obsidian have to hijack every single thread now?

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  51. on March 25, 2009 at 2:02 pm Sara I

    Also, roissy, if you look at any online dating site I think you’ll find many times more men over 50 who are single and looking than you’ll find over women over 50. It’s about 2 to 1. Some men have been on the sites for years and years looking pathetic and desperate. It’s a fact you don’t want to face that single women are happier than married women at any age, with some exceptions of course. MARRIAGE in general sucks and that’s just my opinion. I’m not cut out for it.

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  52. on March 25, 2009 at 2:04 pm bo

    I think your next post should be about desperately sickly people with no health care in Mumbai. Because, you know, I’ve spent all of about a nano-second thinking about that issue… which is about as much time as I’ve allotted for Cougers. Who cares about this shit? Seriously Roissy, you sit around thinking about irrelavent issues. Wait… let’s talk about fat girls (twice as useless).

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  53. on March 25, 2009 at 2:06 pm Obsidian

    Hi Duke,
    Easy star. I was only giving my own experiences and observations on the topic being discussed. Now, if that bothers you, because I prefer to speak from things I actually know about, which is life as an African American, bothers you, well, that’s too bad. We’re here, we’re gonna be here, and you’ll just have to get used to it.

    On the other hand, I though Dune was an interesting film.

    O

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  54. on March 25, 2009 at 2:09 pm Fabian

    So try to remember that older women can be victims of historical circumstance.

    Clio-

    Overall your post was insightful, but as for your statment about women being “victims”, it’s worth pointing out that they were “victims” of the sexual revolution that most of them wanted and eagerly pursued. When the lid of restraint was lifted off the cauldron of debauchery, men acted like kids in a candy store, going after the sweetest morsels they could find, leaving many women high and dry. But make no mistake, women caused this by eagerly seeking sexual liberation. Yet another example of the law of unintended consequences rearing its ugly head.

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  55. on March 25, 2009 at 2:13 pm Chuck

    Anon:

    your words brighten my life. i also agree with everything you said esp. the asian chick thing.

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  56. on March 25, 2009 at 2:13 pm Sara I

    I just did a test on the Yahoo personals. The same search landed 1000 men between the ages of 50 and 60 and 664 women.

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  57. on March 25, 2009 at 2:16 pm Gunslingergregi

    And so it begins in france and they were supposed to be timid.

    PITHIVIERS, France – Striking French workers for U.S. manufacturer 3M held their boss hostage amid labor talks Wednesday at a plant south of Paris, as anger over layoffs and cutbacks mounted around the country.

    While the situation at the 3M plant outside Pithiviers was calm, worker rage elsewhere boiled over into an angry march on the presidential palace in Paris and a bonfire of tires set alight by Continental AG employees whose auto parts factory was being shut down.

    While France has a long tradition of labor unrest, the latest wave of hostage-takings, marches and strikes has echoed across Europe, as the global slowdown fans job fears and leaves many workers skeptical of their leaders’ ability to solve the crisis.

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  58. on March 25, 2009 at 2:17 pm gig

    those cougar-themed posts hurt many people. the same people who rejoice whenever Roissy posts his rejections by women.

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  59. on March 25, 2009 at 2:18 pm ironrailsironweights

    I just did a test on the Yahoo personals. The same search landed 1000 men between the ages of 50 and 60 and 664 women.

    If you did the same search for, say, ages 20 to 30, the surplus of men probably would be far, far greater. Online dating has been a total fiesta de chorizo for years.

    Peter

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  60. on March 25, 2009 at 2:19 pm dougjnn

    PA said –

    What’s the golden age though for a woman to settle down?

    22-23. In our society, in any case.

    Any younger, and she won’t know what she wants. Much older than that, and you’ll be getting other guys’ discarda along with 2-3 superalphas she slept with about whom she’ll never stop thinking.

    Yeah, I agree with PA, or maybe to 25. With the guy being 7-10 years older. This is the time to enter into a relationship in which she’s exclusive to you (and no longer in danger of alpha swooping, you hope and are testing). Maybe one year live separately, then a year or two, really until you both want kids, if you do, you live together, for the final tryout. Then if you must marry, do so with a pre-nup that mimics the economic effects of living together (child support probably can’t be affected much but that’s true of having a living together kid also). A pre-nup esp. this sort will be a lot easier to get if you’ve been living together for a few years.

    The younger side of the range is better especially if you’re not alpha or even higher beta, cause as PA says the risk of several solid alphas having seared themselves into her hindbrain and semi or very ruining her for you goes up for each year she’s single in the big city. But the younger she is the less she’ll value your status, money, security, and loyalty as opposed to edginess, high T, and game kind of attractiveness – usually. With some game and the more the better always being important.

    That’s she’s a true good girl is most clearly important if you’re not alpha and even more if your a middle beta rather than a higher beta. But lots of alphas here think its important for them too, and I think we all do over varying numbers thresholds, with Roissy being no more than 10, and PA and Vladamir lower than that, and me being less than about 20-25 – with caveats. Serial relationships (that usually don’t just last a month or two) are way less troublesome than more than couple of (and some say no) truly casual, a relationship clearly wasn’t in the cards, it’s just thrills sex (and that only if she regretted it). A fling or a deep sexual infatuation not to mention deep love with a solid alpha or several is very threatening to all betas, and somewhat threatening to an alpha. If she’s gonna have ever done an alpha you’re better off if she thought it was going to be a real and thrilling relationship but instead turned into a one night pump and dump. Avoiding that searing hind brain thing.

    You’ll also be much better off if she’s never been in intense love with anyone, including a beta. Many good girls will say they were in love in their relationships, but that’s not the test. Intense, head over heals love is. That often only happens once for girls, with subsequent love paler — unless perhaps you are just so much more alpha than that previous guy esp. in the sex department that you blow him away.

    What you want is a girl who falls in adoring love with you. You’ll see it in her eyes.

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  61. on March 25, 2009 at 2:19 pm Obsidian

    Sara makes some interesting observations that I think we ought not ignore in the larger discussion. As a rule, the whole cougar business aside, older Women, and here I’m speaking latter 40s and above, do tend to stand pat so to speak. If they’re not married, they don’t tend to remarry, nor do they tend to have other relationships and what not. Now of course, it can be said that it is because of what R’s been saying all along. Cool, but maybe this cougar thing isn’t widespread but maybe a kind of niche trend?

    And yea, the Women I’ve known who use personals sites and the like always speak of the old guys who want to have a go at them. Gotta give it the ole college try I guess.

    O

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  62. on March 25, 2009 at 2:20 pm Gunslingergregi

    Still say use the cougars for something ie. Making your bank account bigger. Should be the perfect time to be a player/pimp.

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  63. on March 25, 2009 at 2:21 pm lurker

    Carl, that would only be true if both groups spent a significant period of the day toiling in the Sub-Saharan sun.

    Fact is, they don’t. Most people spend their entire days shielded from the sun. So arguing melatonin in these circumstances is like arguing about long term swimming ability’s correlation to youthfulness while we’re living in a desert.

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  64. on March 25, 2009 at 2:22 pm z

    “If you’re taking your cues from mass media, you’re hopeless. Magazines and tabloids serve to perpetuate the pretty lies. Else they wouldn’t sell.”

    The media lies to women brutally, especially white women.

    YOUR WORST ENEMY IN LIFE IS SOMEONE WHO WILL PRETEND TO BE YOUR FRIEND, ONLY SO THEY CAN GIVE YOU A LIFETIME OF *BAD* ADVICE.

    …………….that maxim above is precisely what the media does to women. Most 40+ Cougars will end up married to their vibrators, cats, and ice cream. If they have any pride, they will stop showing up at bars and devote their lives to various causes……………and probably prowl singles sites on the internet for “older” people. If they have no pride, they will inhabit clubs and give themselves away to anybody who will hump them, and begin to despise both themselves, and anyone who would climb ontop of them. “SEX AND THE CITY” was a bullshit fantasy. Only Kristen Davis was anything near hot. Nobody wants pretentious fashion-obsessed geritol-females.

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  65. on March 25, 2009 at 2:22 pm lurker

    Asian girls are as hot as white girls young. Yes, they do tend to show their age less as they get older. But those aguring they aren’t as hot as the white chicks at 22 are pulling some sour grapes there; either that, or you’ve got some hidden chubby chasers among us.

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  66. on March 25, 2009 at 2:24 pm lurker

    I wouldn’t mind a cougar who lets me plow strange. But she’d better keep those legs shut for everyone but me.

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  67. on March 25, 2009 at 2:24 pm jackson

    Roissy,

    You forgot another reason people become cougars: the lies of our dumb, Disney-infected, magical-thinking culture. It’s the same reason why kids take out $100,00 in student loans to “follow their dreams” in a poor-paying field and the same reason people vote for democrats.

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  68. on March 25, 2009 at 2:26 pm biktopia

    Gosh
    Im 31, but i have so good genes, i will probably look 25 when im 60. erhh ok, maybe not.
    What i can feel in the comments are men pathologically phobic of their women getting chubby old and all that. Makes me wonder, where is love, nowhere, its just about Consumption and loving yourself and your ego and nothing else. its so sad and superficial., if you choose a girl depending on what others have to say, like race or age or anything else that can be obstacle like family cant stand her,, or she is rich,,,, eeeewh you don’t live, you are fake.
    I had 2 boyfriends that both where 4 years younger, then 1 that where 2 weeks older, then i had a big crush on a older guy, so it doesn’t matter what age. , i wouldn’t dump a guy coz my friends didn’t like him or my family disagreed. Or that he is to old or to young or poor or a gipsy. Its my choice.
    If you want to marry a fake plastic dream, then go ahead, be happy live your life, this will probably and up in a empty lived life. Be true to yourselves. Choose what you feel like.
    Love.

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  69. on March 25, 2009 at 2:32 pm Obsidian

    You know, now that I think back on my life, and presently, I’ve never had this fear of losing my Woman to someone else, or that she couldn’t bond to me because of whoever in her life back in the day. I haven’t asked around my homies or Black Men in general so I can’t speak from a wider point, but this fear on the part of what apears to so many White guys is interesting to me.

    The reality of life is there will always be a bigger fish. So what. Be the best you that you can be, and move out.

    Period.

    In my life, I’ve had only 3 Women cheat on me, or otherwise was lost to other Men. Out of the Women I’ve had, that’s not a bad number, although of course it didn’t lessen the emotional pain. But I guess one reason for a relatively low number was because I focused a lot more on what I was doing and not on what someone else could be doing.

    Just a thought.

    O

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  70. on March 25, 2009 at 2:33 pm dougjnn

    T Rickey Ray —

    So if it comes dow to a slacker, unconfident beta in his 20s and a slacker unconfident beta in his mid-30s or older, then the younger guy probably has an advantage and the older guy’s age works against him.

    Yeah. A young to mid twenties girl might believe in the future PROMISE of a guy her own age or nearly. In a guy in his thirties she’ll figure just viscerally as well as consciously, that the status and money trajectory for that guy is pretty well on the table and either showing well, or not.

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  71. on March 25, 2009 at 2:33 pm Usually Lurking

    So try to remember that older women can be victims of historical circumstance

    Clio, how did you not know anyone that got married before 30? Esp. considering your conservative leanings. I understand that you were not living in Texarkana, but still.

    Fewer people get married, per capita, now versus then and I know tons of people who got married before 30. And I spend most of my time between NYC and Philly. Not exactly flyover country.

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  72. on March 25, 2009 at 2:34 pm Sparks123

    The so-called MILFs in porn are mostly just girls in their 20s with huge fake boobs. Austin Kincaid was born in 1980 and is frequently marketed as a MILF. Same with Priya Rai who was born in 1982.

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  73. on March 25, 2009 at 2:41 pm Obsidian

    Good point, Sparks. A true MILF type would have been Kay Parker or Candy Samples, older Women when they got into porn with legitimately big racks to boot.

    O

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  74. on March 25, 2009 at 2:42 pm Marcus Aureliette

    You forgot another reason people become cougars: the lies of our dumb, Disney-infected, magical-thinking culture.

    Be fair. The dumb, Disneyfied culture is the reason a lot of people are sluts and spoiled prima donnas, too. Cougars don’t just spring into existence out of the blue at 45, you know.

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  75. on March 25, 2009 at 2:48 pm ElderBill

    Some of this discussion is young men talking about what they think they’ll like when they’re older. I myself said the same things in my 20s. When I reached my late 30s, I realized that young women didn’t do it for me anymore — seriously, they just seem too young, too cleanly scrubbed, too friggin’ new.

    Women in their 40s can be amazingly hot, as long as they had stayed in shape and haven’t lived a dissolute lifestyle. There’s something about women in their 40s — they often still have their looks, but a maturity and perspective as well, that makes an awesome combination. That is, provided they aren’t the idiots that Roissy rightly quotes — but most aren’t.

    As far as the droopy tits comment, my current girlfriend got firmer breasts than many women in their early 20s that I recall sleeping with. Gravity may get everyone eventually, but some really put up a fight first.

    Anyway, I’m not encouraging young men to sleep with cougars — just telling them that in my case, I found my sexual attractions remained with my age group. You may find the same happens to you.

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  76. on March 25, 2009 at 2:52 pm lurker

    priya rai can stroke me any day.

    somethign about indian girls gets me going. I think its those german features with exotic skin and the ability to cook curry.

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  77. on March 25, 2009 at 2:52 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Carl, that would only be true if both groups spent a significant period of the day toiling in the Sub-Saharan sun.

    Fact is, they don’t. Most people spend their entire days shielded from the sun. So arguing melatonin in these circumstances is like arguing about long term swimming ability’s correlation to youthfulness while we’re living in a desert.

    You’re wrong. You’re severely underestimating the effects of sun damage on the average human being in the average climate. You don’t have to be in Sub-Saharan Africa or an equivalen climate to suffer from it. You don’t even have to be exposed to a lot of sunny days, you can even receive UVA or UVB rays on an overcast day. We’re talking about decades of accumulated daily damage. Sure on a per day basis it’s not much, but added up every day for decades? You’d be surprised. Throw in sunny summers and vacations to sunny places and if the person goes to tanning salons regulaly and it really starts to get ugly. If you’re talking about within just a few months to a year sure you’d need to be in a Sub-Saharan environment to really get enough sun damage to see a difference. But to accumulate nticeable sun damage over a lifetime all you need to do is be in a place that simply receives sunlight.

    There is a new UV photography device dermatologists use. It takes a photo that reveals sun damage to your face. There’s a link about it here:
    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Health/story?id=886396
    The three people I know who hav had this type of photograph taken, one of whom was a black woman born and raised in NY, was utterly shocked at the level of sun damage her skin showed. Another girl was a Manhattan JAP who gave up tanning immediately after getting her UV photo taken. Of course in her case the damage is already done even if it hasn’t become noticeable on the surface yet.

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  78. on March 25, 2009 at 2:54 pm dougjnn

    Obsidian —

    It was general advice to readers, most of whom are some kind of beta. I’ve had only one woman that I was in a LTR relationship cheat on me, and only when it became a LDR that was on the brink of ending anyway due to my going across the country to college.

    As well cheating isn’t the only issue. Tepid sex for betas after a year or two into marriage is another one, if she’s had lots of alpha sex seared into her hindbrain, and she’s no longer working so hard to convince herself that she hasn’t settled but instead picked the best overall man for her that was also good in bed. Which might lead to divorce, usually initiated by the woman. Vladamir’s written very persuasively of this danger for most men these days who marry very experienced girls. It’s in the Wedding Ring and Love in the Time of Game threads several months ago. You or others can do a google site search to find the threads and then do a find for “slut”.

    Divorce rates are higher in the black community.

    There probably are SOME big time sluts who’ve slept with many alphas, who will marry a beta and then have very good sex with him, for many years or the until old age, and never leave the marriage. It just doesn’t seem like the best bet in the world. Although not as risky for alphas, esp. if you get that adoration thing from her. Still hasn’t been my choice. More moderate former sluts, yeah I have had good fairly LTR’s with two.

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  79. on March 25, 2009 at 2:55 pm 87

    lurker:
    Fact is, they don’t. Most people spend their entire days shielded from the sun. So arguing melatonin in these circumstances is like arguing about long term swimming ability’s correlation to youthfulness while we’re living in a desert.

    The difference between melatonin and melanin is really a large matter — it’s the differene between the lightning bug and the lightning.

    —

    The lure of cougardom for aging females is not unlike the lure of a 3rd- or 4th-tier law school, with its attendant $100,000+ price tag, for directionless men. Some of them will score the equivalent of Kutcher – i.e., a personal-injury lawsuit that pays 33 1/3 % of millions upon millions of dollars – but most of them will take fifteen years just to pay back their debt.

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  80. on March 25, 2009 at 2:58 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    So, let’s do a straight up apples to apples comparison. Let’s not take Shaniqua from the Maury show and compare her to some White hottie in the boonies. Talk about putting a thumb on the scale. Sheesh!

    This is what I basically said.

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  81. on March 25, 2009 at 2:59 pm Chuck

    No….hottest MILF going is Lisa Ann. Check her out. When she walks, her ass looks like two tomcats fightin’ in a knapsack. and that’s a good thing. whew.

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  82. on March 25, 2009 at 3:00 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Just googled Priya Rai…that chick passes for a MILF?!

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  83. on March 25, 2009 at 3:00 pm 87

    ElderBill: When I reached my late 30s, I realized that young women didn’t do it for me anymore — seriously, they just seem too young, too cleanly scrubbed, too friggin’ new.

    mmhmm.

    I once said that driving a Ferrari would be no big deal to me, either – too try-hard, too overrated, too this, too that.

    A year later, I got to drive a Ferrari.

    —

    Although, yes, there are some older women who are the woman equivalent of finely aged wine.

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  84. on March 25, 2009 at 3:00 pm Gunslingergregi

    “jackson
    Roissy,

    You forgot another reason people become cougars: the lies of our dumb, Disney-infected, magical-thinking culture. It’s the same reason why kids take out $100,00 in student loans to “follow their dreams” in a poor-paying field and the same reason people vote for democrats.”

    The loan thing killlsss me. Should give 100k loans to kids who want to start a business out of high school. Loans should be dime a dozen for anything anyone that creates something productive or looks like it will create something productive. Want to talk about creating jobs. Shit they will try out there dreams right there on the spot. They might fail but a quick experience building mechanism while they are young. When I have a 100k cash I will be able to live my dream hence the irony of life. Then when you get to 100 you want 200 and lose it. Then are like fuck I could have been done at 100. The problem is timeframe to learn things is limited which make life so viscious. There are steps in the process of learning and the problem is to get to certain level of knowledge takes a lifetime and by then it is over unless you accelerate it. Yea sure woman probably learn a lot becoming older but by the time they are experts at what they want the party has ended see a lot of those over here. One year saw a woman go from milf with vibrancy to hag. Was scary shit.

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  85. on March 25, 2009 at 3:15 pm whiskey

    T. AKA Ricky Raw — Beautiful. Nailed it.

    WRT Kutcher, there’s little doubt he’s fooling around with younger women and Moore has to tolerate it. Moore-Kutcher is more like a business partnership (Moore is a pretty good producer, though terrible actress) where Moore mentors Kutcher in what he really wants to do, which is produce. Specifically moving from reality stuff to theatrical movies (Moore has produced a bunch of those, most made money).

    Because their “relationship” is not based on love, romance, or sex, but rather sound business partnership and I guess companionship, it’s by Hollywood standards “stable.” I’m sure in a few years however Kutcher will dump Moore for a younger piece. It’s alleged that Kutcher is notorious for discreetly having lots of hot young chicks around. And of course Moore’s ex Bruce Willis has cut a swath through most of young Hollywood’s starlets, his new wife is about 20+ years his junior.

    And yes, chemistry, engineering (support bras), and various bio-medical stuff (botox, restalyne, and so on) are all the result of beta guys with nose to the grindstone creating lots of engineered stuff to hold back a little the effects of time. The guys who do that are nerdy betas, not Masters of the Universe Alphas that the Cougars played with as youths.

    Anon — women’s age preference depends on the pool of guys or specifically the maturity level, which can skew age preference up or down depending on setting.

    FWIW, using the sample of beautiful actresses who reached late 30’s and beyond, both Black and White, I don’t see any appreciable difference in say, Halle Berry, Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Julia Roberts, Angela Bassett, and Vanessa Williams. True all these women are in the extreme right hand tail of the beauty distribution, and have access to beauty regimens, plastic surgery, and the like as they age. But danged if I can discern a difference.

    Sex and the City? The promo for the movie, a photo with haggard, horse-faced Sarah Jessica Parker strolling down the NYC sidewalk with a self absorbed grin on her face, looking all sinewy and stringy, in a ridiculous outfit, while four really HOT girls a good fifteen years younger pass by and gawk at her in awe, said it all. It was about female status within female circles, Telling indeed a lie (in real life that would have elicited laughter by the younger hotter women) and based on ever increasing wealth by the yuppie class. William-Sonoma posted a 90% loss in revenues this last year. What does that tell you about the yuppie fantasy so many have invested in?

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  86. on March 25, 2009 at 3:16 pm lurker

    T. Ricky, sorry, you’re wrong:

    “You’re severely underestimating the effects of sun damage on the average human being in the average climate. You don’t have to be in Sub-Saharan Africa or an equivalen climate to suffer from it. ”

    —being affected by the sun is one thing; being affected enough for differences in sun-resistance to appear is another.

    We’re only 150-200 removed from the industrial revolution beginning. Our bodies are still developed for those climates our ancestors came from—but for working *outside* in those conditions. And yes, those from wetter Northern European climes (Irish), if forced to work outside 8 hours/day along side Africans in the sunnier U.S. would noticeably be affected by the sun more. See “Redshanks” on google.

    Today, we stay inside, so the amount of sun we receive is so drastically less than anyone has ever received. Do we have skin damage from the sun? Yes. But that’s saying that’s similar to the damage we would receive outside is like saying that the amount of air pollution we receive in nyc today is equivalent to the air pollution in a coal mine in West Virginia in 1900. It’s a factor of 100 or more off.

    And because we receive drastically less sun so as to be insignificant, those skins more resistant and those less resistant do not separate.

    .”Another girl was a Manhattan JAP who gave up tanning immediately after getting her UV photo taken. Of course in her case the damage is already done even if it hasn’t become noticeable on the surface yet.”

    —This is an exceptionproves the rule. Only hardcore tanners—women who frequent the booths regularly, even in the winter—will show their innate skin resistance or lack there of, because only they are receiving anything close to the amount of sun we would receive in an outdoor-labor-intensive world.

    Since she’s a JAP, she probably has a lot of light skin and would be bad in the U.S. in general, except in more northern, overcast climes. But most women are not tan freaks, or get the spray ons.

    Sorry, T. Ricky; the fact that black woman’s skin is most resistant to aging in the sun has little bearing in our current world, as its akin to being the best swimmer in the desert.

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  87. on March 25, 2009 at 3:17 pm Obsidian

    Doug,
    Gotcha. Well, the obvious solution would seem to be that guys need to get more facetime w/the ladies, yes? Easier said than done I know, but simple and easy aren’t the same things.

    As for divorce rates in Black America, Black folks have a harder time of it for other reasons that a lot of Whites don’t have to deal with. Now don’t get me wrong, a lot of those things are to my mind self inflicted.

    Having said that sure, I’m sure anyone here can find a Black guy whose wifey was creepin on him. Happens to the best of us.

    O

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  88. on March 25, 2009 at 3:21 pm Sara I

    Peter

    fiesta de chorizo

    Sausage fest? LOL You made my day.

    Obsidian

    Sara makes some interesting observations that I think we ought not ignore in the larger discussion.

    I would say even in the smaller discussions they ought not to be ignored..

    Roissy

    If you can think to yourself regarding me, “I hate that bitch!” with a smile on your face, my work here is done.

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  89. on March 25, 2009 at 3:21 pm Jerry

    Does anyone have any statistics on exactly how many cougars there are in the US? I feel that the extent of this demographic has been overhyped, thus worrying about a small subset of the population seems rather silly. Either writing an article in the Boston Globe, or analyzing their behavior here on these boards. It doesn’t take an unemployed blogger to have figured out that few men would have come out (though they have may not have set up the “experiment” properly and did themselves in).

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  90. on March 25, 2009 at 3:22 pm lurker

    Chuck, Lisa Ann is a cutie, but asses do nothing for me, unless they’re grotesquely large. Gimme a tight ass and long legs any day.

    Priya…damn…wipes the floor with Lisa Ann. Probably because we have so few Indian porn ladies out there, and Priya was a pinup girl before hand.

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  91. on March 25, 2009 at 3:22 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Lurker, the tanner was my example of the worst case scenario. But I also used the example of the black woman who was born and raised in NY and didn’t tan to show that sun damage is relevant even to those most naturally resistant to it living in colder climates. Look at the article I linked to. Or better yet talk to a dermatologist and ask him whether or not people in our modern urban cities have to worry about the visible effect of sun damage. Better yet, get the UV photo taken of yourself and view the results.

    If vsible effects of decades of sun damage doesn’t effect people in our modern society, why do dermatologists, plasic surgeons and cosmetic companies push the benefits of UV sunscreen products with near messianic fervor?

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  92. on March 25, 2009 at 3:26 pm dougjnn

    T –Rickey Raw

    Yes on the two types of cougars, and the post divorce one being much better, usually. Here’s where divorce theft actually works to the advantage of some guys, just not the hapless ex husband.

    Post divorce mid thirty somethings can also make good fling or LTR material for guys who’ve aged out of twenty somethings. Some of them don’t have children and either don’t want them or will live without them once they find that a guy who’s attractive enough to be unlike her ex and young enough to want to start a family from scratch is pretty scarce — since those guys her age or up to mid 40s alphas are looking to settle down with a twenty something, not a mid 30s divorced woman. Or some older guys might not mind a prefab family. Esp. one that’s being significantly paid for, if that’s an issue given his income. (Note I don’t think this last is fair in most circumstances; but there’s OUGHT and there’s IS.)

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  93. on March 25, 2009 at 3:31 pm J

    I’m only 19 so maybe I just don’t have the experience to understand a lot of these arguments, but if you seriously think younger girls are interested in old men just because you wave your wallet around, stop kidding yourselves. Just look at who is on the cover of any magazine: shia labeouf, robert pattison, and the jonas brothers everywhere you turn. Even high fashion has guys like Ash Stymest who is 16 and Cole Mohr who is 21, while old fave 39 year old Tyson Beckford is left hosting a c-list reality show. All demographics prefer a younger look.

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  94. on March 25, 2009 at 3:34 pm lurker

    T. aka Ricky:

    Like I said, I’m not denying people have sun damage today.
    But that’s like saying we have as much or comparable muscle damage to the farm workers in the 1750s. We simply do not.

    We aren’t mole people. But think about it: 8-10 hours a day, 300 days a year, versus 1-2 hours a day. 2400-3000 hours versus 300-600.

    At best, that’s a magnitude of 4 times; at worse, 10 times.

    But the modern paranoia over “sun damage” is two fold: people who over tan or burn up quickly on laying on the beach, and dermatologists/sun screen sellers using scare tactics” for sales. Sunscree sales have shot up enormously over the last few decades—-hmm, I wonder if that is incentive. Dermatologists also hock botox, a poison, as a cure all for crows feet, btw.

    “If vsible effects of decades of sun damage doesn’t effect people in our modern society, why do dermatologists, plasic surgeons and cosmetic companies push the benefits of UV sunscreen products with near messianic fervor?”

    —Money. Period.

    I’m not saying conspiracy, mind you; I think many have just believed the hype. Look at low-fat diets, vitamins, or drinking 8 ounces of water per day: all have been steadfastedly recommended by professional doctors over the years as solid healthy actions, and yet over the last few years all 3 have been shown to NOT do any of the healthy things they supposedly do; they were merely folk wisdom, or one or two studies, hyped all out of proportion by a panick-driven media.

    And the fact that these guys make a *healthy* profit off of it encourages them to believe that hype.

    For more evidence, see “global warming” or, in the 70s, global cooling.

    Panic and herd following are traits even doctors follow.

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  95. on March 25, 2009 at 3:35 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Obsidian –

    W/all due respect T-Raw, what you initially said about Black Women above I could just as easily say about tons of White Women. Many of them don’t take care of themselves at all and are easily as overweight. Yes?

    Well sure, but proportionately speaking there is a much higher rate of obesity and poverty among black women than among white women. The latest stats estimate that over 70% of black women are overweight in America and 50% are obese. So while I agree that black women will age better when all things are equal regarding socioeconomic status, age, weight and health habits, I also have to admit that there is a much higher proportion of black women living in poverty with bad health habits and who are overweight.

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  96. on March 25, 2009 at 3:37 pm Sara I

    Sara I

    There are probably as many men who have pissed away their youth and beauty chasing scags and whores and find themselves with few options that don’t require Viagra to get excited about

    Let’s not forget how women AND men let the good one’s get away by not appreciating them until they’re gone and gone for good. Basically people are slow, dumb creatures who must learn everything the hard way.

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  97. on March 25, 2009 at 3:38 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Lurker – if the question is whether we have significantly less sun damage today than 150 years ago, of course we have less. But that doesn’t prove that the level of sun damage we DO have today can’t have visible results over the span of decades. Proving that we have less sun damage than the past, which is what you seem intent on focusing on, does not disprove my assertion that sun damage does have visible effects on people outside of Sub-Saharan Africa.

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  98. on March 25, 2009 at 3:39 pm dougjnn

    Anonymous

    Guys want younger women, but younger women, except for the golddigger-types, don’t prefer older(more than 5+ year) guys.

    Not true, though I used to think so. Up to ten years gap isn’t hard at all.

    Guys up to about their middle 40s can still pull mid and late twenties girls. He has to be alpha though for that much age gap to work. It certainly won’t work with all kinds of hot mid or late 20s, but some mid twenties and more late twenties, with early thirties being easy. I’ve been there. Quite a bit.

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  99. on March 25, 2009 at 3:40 pm lurker

    J, please. Tyson was a legend in his own mind, and the few black women who wanted him. He never had any talent, much like Kutcher. A one trick pony for gays and cougars to drool over.

    Ask those girls who they’d rather have: Shia or George Clooney.

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  100. on March 25, 2009 at 3:42 pm TurkishThought

    To the angry womam who wrote this drivel…
    ”
    Guys want younger women, but younger women, except for the golddigger-types, don’t prefer older(more than 5+ year) guys. So it seems to the same situation as cougars, except for the fact that most women are pretty happy with men their own age. Guys hit the wall pretty fast too, and anyone who doesn’t think so should comb their hair to hide their massively thinning harline, adjust their pants to hide the sagging paunch, and continue on, self-delusion unabated. While the young girls happily take your drinks, bat their eyelashes at you to keep the drinks coming, and call you an old pervert when you turn away.”

    Really…Including myself, I can name atleast half a dozen relatives friends with wives or girlfirends that are 8 years or younger than their husbands/boyfriends. Women want status/pwoer/money and older men can deliver this to them. Face reality…no one wants your old shriveled body.

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  101. on March 25, 2009 at 3:46 pm Comment_Really_Real_World

    jackson wrote:

    Roissy,

    You forgot another reason people become cougars: the lies of our dumb, Disney-infected, magical-thinking culture. It’s the same reason why kids take out $100,00 in student loans to “follow their dreams” in a poor-paying field and the same reason people vote for democrats.

    Yeah, like my degree in Electrical Engineering!

    Oh wait, I didn’t have very much debt at all.(like under 15,000)

    And I graduated(which was pretty much guaranteed, but we are talking about engineering students as a group), which 50% of those who started didn’t.

    Looking back, I have to wonder whether it wouldn’t have been more efficient for me to have taken a different career path.

    Because let’s remember kiddies, lifetime earnings are lifetime earnings, and four years of college is a nice massive more-than-ten-percent hit to those earnings.

    So remember, kiddies, following your dreams by becoming a 60-hour a week SALARIED engineer might not be a smart idea. It certainly isn’t in America anymore.

    I’m leaving. Because I want to, but also because I have to if I want to be treated better than dirt, and get paid better than dirt. This makes the decision easy, don’t you think?

    To the loudmouth judgmental little punks like PA, I’d like to say it was fun, but it really, really wasn’t.

    That anger thing, PA, I probably need to work on it so you can insult me more.

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  102. on March 25, 2009 at 3:48 pm lurker

    T aka ricky:

    “. But that doesn’t prove that the level of sun damage we DO have today can’t have visible results over the span of decades. ”

    —Nor does it prove the opposite, that the level of sun damage we DO have today CAN have visible results over the span of our human life.

    “Proving that we have less sun damage than the past, which is what you seem intent on focusing on, does not disprove my assertion that sun damage does have visible effects on people outside of Sub-Saharan Africa.”

    —I never argued that sub-sharan people are not better adapted to sun damage.

    I read your assertion as being that, because they are better adapted to the sun, that black women in america look younger than white at older ages.

    Because of the limted sun we do get, that assertion is in doubt; as my back of the envelope calculation shows, 1 year in 1850 can equal 10 years today of sun damage. Such a disparity inclines me to believe that sun damage plays little, if any effect, on how women look when they age today.

    Admittedly, both of our assertions are in doubt, simply because we do not have evidence that a) the sun damage resistance kicks in at a certain threshold; and b) when that threshold has been pierced.

    Quite simply, the facts before us are leading us to different hypotheses. Both are necessarily logical, though one or both are wrong.

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  103. on March 25, 2009 at 3:49 pm Anonymous

    Really…Including myself, I can name atleast half a dozen relatives friends with wives or girlfirends that are 8 years or younger than their husbands/boyfriends. Women want status/pwoer/money and older men can deliver this to them.

    How does that conflict with the point that about the goldigger class of women, whi are willing to date an older guy? Who would have a harder time getting women twenty-year old women, a beautiful 25 five year old guy, working as a waiter, or his 45 year old monetary equivalent, still working as a waiter? If old guys want youth, they have to ante up the money. While young guys don’t need to do that, their youth is coin enough.

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  104. on March 25, 2009 at 3:53 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    —Nor does it prove the opposite, that the level of sun damage we DO have today CAN have visible results over the span of our human life.

    You’re right, that alone doesn’t prove the opposite. That’s why I also included the facts about the UV cameras and the current research on sun damage I linked to.

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  105. on March 25, 2009 at 3:56 pm Anonymous

    The presence of melanin does lead to significantly reduced wrinkles, and more supple skin in people who have more melanin, as opposed to people who have less melanin. There really shouldn’t be much room for disagreement. The rate of skin cancer between the various races alone should tell you that melanin acts as a protective shield against damaging effects of UV rays.

    Dark skin is much less prone to developing fine lines and wrinkles, and retains a certain amount of elasticity that lighter skin does not. Scientist have noted it, and your own eyes can tell you as much. What is there to argue about?

    http://articles.gourt.com/en/melanin

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  106. on March 25, 2009 at 3:56 pm dougjnn

    T aka Rickey Raw–

    Well sure, but proportionately speaking there is a much higher rate of obesity and poverty among black women than among white women. The latest stats estimate that over 70% of black women are overweight in America and 50% are obese.

    Just wanted to say that as usual you obviously make a real effort to be fair and think about what your addressing from several points of view. And succeed at it, with regularity.

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  107. on March 25, 2009 at 3:58 pm DF

    J

    I’m only 19 so maybe I just don’t have the experience to understand a lot of these arguments, but if you seriously think younger girls are interested in old men just because you wave your wallet around, stop kidding yourselves. Just look at who is on the cover of any magazine: shia labeouf, robert pattison, and the jonas brothers everywhere you turn. Even high fashion has guys like Ash Stymest who is 16 and Cole Mohr who is 21, while old fave 39 year old Tyson Beckford is left hosting a c-list reality show. All demographics prefer a younger look.

    Wait a second, you mean to tell me those are actual guys? Here I was thinking they were cross dressing chicks.

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  108. on March 25, 2009 at 3:58 pm Anonymous

    http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July06/RN.obesity.bmi.ssl.html

    Why BMI is not a good indicator of obesity for black people.

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  109. on March 25, 2009 at 4:01 pm J

    lurker-please ask anyone under 25 that question. I know the answer most will give is Shia.
    DF-haha

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  110. on March 25, 2009 at 4:06 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Admittedly, both of our assertions are in doubt, simply because we do not have evidence that a) the sun damage resistance kicks in at a certain threshold; and b) when that threshold has been pierced.

    Yes we do have such evidence. Did you even look for them? Google “effects sun damage aging.”

    Here is one example:

    The sun’s rays make skin look old and wrinkled years before it should. More than 80% of the signs of skin aging in adults are the result of the tans they had as teens before the age of 18. That’s because over time, the sun’s ultraviolet light damages the fibers in the skin called elastin. When these fibers breakdown, the skin begins to sag, stretch, and lose its ability to go back into place after stretching.

    From this link:
    http://www.medicinenet.com/sun_damaged_skin_pictures_slideshow/article.htm

    Here’s a list of articles about sun damage research and how it effects aging:
    http://en.mimi.hu/beauty/sun_damage.html

    A University of California study comparing aging differences between blacks and whites can be found here:
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n7_v88/ai_17108814

    It says:

    A recent study by researchers at the University of California at San Francisco found that prolonged exposure to sun rays is the main reason White skin is often robbed of its youthful appearance quicker than Black skin.

    The survey of 20,000 patients concluded that year for year, Blacks have younger looking skin than Whites. Researchers found nearly 10 times more visible signs of aging–wrinkles, liver spots and other age marks related to sun exposure–in Whites than Blacks.

    You are approaching this from an outome based viewpoint. You are starting with the conclusion you want to believe and then trying to find evidence or plausible thought experiments to confirm your bias. The fact that you said there’s no evidence that sun damage plays a difference in the appearanc of people in modern society and instead used thought experiment theorizing as your primary evidence shows this, because a preliminary google search or browsing of a medical site would easily have shown you plenty of scientific findings about visible effects of sun damage on modern people.

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  111. on March 25, 2009 at 4:09 pm dougjnn

    Anonymous–

    The presence of melanin does lead to significantly reduced wrinkles, and more supple skin in people who have more melanin, as opposed to people who have less melanin. There really shouldn’t be much room for disagreement.

    I agree.

    Whitish skin developed in Europe and Northern Asia after the major continental races had split apart (except for clineal borderland regions) because 1) skin damage threat was much less in those high latitude and often overcast environments; and 2) melanin acts like a filter against sunlight and doesn’t allow in enough sunlight in northern climes for the sufficient production of vitamin D. (We get a lot of vitamin D from milk and cheese these days but that wasn’t a factor back then.) There are some other theories for factors that might have further encouraged the skin color change, but this one is accepted as being the primary one.

    This is a ridiculous argument.

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  112. on March 25, 2009 at 4:10 pm TurkishThought

    To Anonymous

    Ok…let me reiterate once more. Men and women are wired differently. A women will settle for man who is older because the older man can STILL give her children while giving her a boost in her status or pocketbook.

    Older women CANNOT provide children nor can she provide a boost to his status, as most men will feel sorry for that guy. Men will definitely ask, “Shame, he can’t do better”.

    Alpha males or Beta’s aspiring to be Alpha’s will not chase older women because they do not have to. They can get attractive smart women that have tight bodies.

    It is perfectly natural for younger women to find older successful men attractive. These men can provide security for themselves as well as their offspring.

    Please read more on evolutionary traits for men and women and what drives each.

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  113. on March 25, 2009 at 4:11 pm lurker

    J, no, you’re dead wrong on that boy. Just because you hope that doesn’t mean its true. Witness how many of your little girfriends start humping their professors.

    Shia v. Clooney? Transformer boy ain’t got a chance.

    Anonymous, my own eyes tell me black women look older and haggard. Black skin may be mroe resistant to wrinkles—just have to take your word on that–but in today’s sun-avoidance age, that simply isn’t a factor.

    I have black female guards at work in their 20s and white female partners in their 40s, and they look the same age.

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  114. on March 25, 2009 at 4:12 pm gig

    Just look at who is on the cover of any magazine

    Nailed it. Just look at the cover of teen-girls magazines. That is where reality is shown.

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  115. on March 25, 2009 at 4:14 pm lurker

    T Aka Ricky, that new UV photography is about scaring people. Show a person black sludge in their veins, and they will eat better.

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  116. on March 25, 2009 at 4:15 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    I have black female guards at work in their 20s and white female partners in their 40s, and they look the same age.

    Yes, but I’m pretty sure those black female guards are in a lower socioeconomic class with worse health habits and harder lives than the white female partners.

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  117. on March 25, 2009 at 4:15 pm lurker

    gig, said it better than I ever could.

    J probably believes in tooth fairy, too.

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  118. on March 25, 2009 at 4:18 pm dougjnn

    T Ricky Raw —

    sun damage does have visible effects on people outside of Sub-Saharan Africa.

    South Asians, particularly the further south you go also have similarly dark skin, as do many Papuan New Guineans and Melanesians on S.E. Asian islands, and to a lesser degree, most Australian Aborigines. These groups are not at all closely related racially in time of split off or gene frequencies, with Sub Saharan Africans. They are all however in tropical or semi tropical locales.

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  119. on March 25, 2009 at 4:18 pm lurker

    Well, T Aka Ricky, as someone above said, comparing Halle Berry and Nicole Kidman, they look the same age.

    Rhianna looks the same age as every other pop tart.

    Beyoncee looks slightly older than Faith Hill.

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  120. on March 25, 2009 at 4:21 pm lurker

    “(We get a lot of vitamin D from milk and cheese these days but that wasn’t a factor back then.) ”

    –untrue, Doug. Ancient Irish subsisted almost completely on dairy products.

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  121. on March 25, 2009 at 4:26 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Well, T Aka Ricky, as someone above said, comparing Halle Berry and Nicole Kidman, they look the same age.

    SO glad you used this example. Let’s examine Nicole Kidman’s beauty regimen. I won’t include links because I keep geting stuck in comment moderation, but if you google the quotes below you’ll find the articles:

    Pale-faced Nicole Kidman says she stays out of the sun and wears tons of sunscreen because the sun is her enemy…just kidding. Kidman says she stays out of the sun to avoid skin damage, which is probably why she has such luminous skin.

    She says, “I wear a lot of sunscreen. I never go in the sun. I’ve had one skin cancer on my leg, and I rarely get in the sun, so that just shows you. They cut it out (the cancer). Stay out of the sun, because it is the worst thing in terms of aging. I’m very medical. I come from a medical family.”

    Another article:

    Nicole Kidman is famously afraid of the sun. She stays out of it at all costs. In fact, many celebrities simply avoid that sun by wearing hats and slathering on sunscreen. They know the sun is the No. 1 cause of prematurely aging skin.

    You and I can avoid the sun by not only wearing hats, but getting in the habit of wearing sunscreen every day, no matter the weather. (I’m also a big fan of teaching sons and daughters about sunscreen very early in life). Find out what the best sunscreen in the world is here .

    So basically, the example you use perfectly proves my point about how sun damage can make a difference in a modern woman’s appearance.

    Second, Nicole Kidman, while looking great for her age, does not look the same age as Halle Berry. I won’t supply the links because of the whole comment moderation issue, but google images of both without makeup and get back to me.

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  122. on March 25, 2009 at 4:27 pm Easy

    “Guys hit the wall pretty fast too, and anyone who doesn’t think so should comb their hair to hide their massively thinning harline, adjust their pants to hide the sagging paunch, and continue on, self-delusion unabated.”

    Hit the gym, and don’t use the comb over if you are thinning. Not rocket science…

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  123. on March 25, 2009 at 4:28 pm Obsidian

    T-Raw,
    Yup, on the merits, what you say about Black Women wrt obesity rates are correct. No argument there.

    But again, it always seems like we *immediately* go to the worst examples of Black folk to make a point about Black folk, and let’s be clear, I don’t make any excuses for the bad or dumb things some Black folk do. It’s just kinda tiring to see people in the early 21st century with such tunnel vision.

    Anyway, all things being equal, my vote is for Halle over Nicole. Although both are attractive.

    O

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  124. on March 25, 2009 at 4:31 pm J

    lurker, even if you were right it kind of proves my point. Just like Demi Moore is an exception to the rule, so is Clooney. Sorry. Most old guys are either gross or gross with cash. None of my friends fuck their professors or even want to, unless you count TAs but they are young too. that is an urban legend. And I believed in the tooth fairy as long as my daddy gave me money for lost teeth…

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  125. on March 25, 2009 at 4:34 pm Sparks123

    Just look at who is on the cover of any magazine

    Most of the Jonas Brothers’ fans are younger than they are. The same was true of New Kids on the Block, the Backstreet Boys and N’Sync. 12 year old girls have no problem fantasizing about 20 year old guys.

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  126. on March 25, 2009 at 4:36 pm Oakland

    —But again, it always seems like we *immediately* go to the worst examples of Black folk to make a point about Black folk, and let’s be clear, I don’t make any excuses for the bad or dumb things some Black folk do. It’s just kinda tiring to see people in the early 21st century with such tunnel vision.—

    I couldn’t imagine why:

    http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/012812.html

    Savages…

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  127. on March 25, 2009 at 4:37 pm Obsidian

    Good point in observation, Sparks. Hadn’t thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, you gotta point.

    Good money.

    O

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  128. on March 25, 2009 at 4:42 pm HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO

    I always thought of Cougars as middle aged women who look good, exercise and eat better than their peers (no elliptical shit or whatever, real weight training), haven’t had a gazillion kids, dress well, and still have decent market value despite their age. In that case, I like Cougars. When referring to cougars, Roissy seems to be describing just your average middle aged single woman, most of which are absolutely hideous and dessicated.

    This is what I think of when I think of a cougar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t0pVbVa-rQ&feature=channel_page

    Definitely still has some value, and probably a solid 12-15 years of attractiveness left. 39 years old.

    ““At the recent 8minuteDating party that had older men hunting for younger women, Trickett joked that she wished she could have hosted the party with the folks who were actually enthusiastic about signing up – the older women and the older men. Maybe they would have shown up, discovered that the younger daters were no-shows, and been forced to go on the speed dates with one another – people their own age.

    “I’d love to do that with them all, just to see their faces,” Trickett said.

    Me too.” This part was fucking hilarious. People just can’t accept the fact that men have almost no value in their 20s and it increases exponentially, while women experience tremendous value in their late teens and early twenties that decays rapidly. I wish I could show these types of fucking retards just how frustrating it is to be a 18-24 year old male with regard to your dating market value, or even just how little society in general values you. Way way less if you happen to be a minority. These old broads have no idea how hard this demographic has it, easily as bad as the middle aged unwanted woman, maybe worse since at least the government gives them alimony/welfare.

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  129. on March 25, 2009 at 4:47 pm Obsidian

    Oakland,
    Again, I don’t deny the bad things Black folk do. But are all Black folk bad? How many do you actually know, Oaktown?

    Trust me man, if anyone here has a bone to pick w/the kinds of Black folk some of you are only too eager to sling out as representative of *all* Black folk, its me. I live among such folk, and have, for many years.

    Yet, I don’t see just the worst or most problematic of Black folks because I know many others in other walks of life. Many of them coming from similar environs.

    I recently quoted Tavis Smiley and I’ll do so again here: Americans have to start talking *to* each other, and challenge their assumptions. Whether we (read, you, Oaktown), we are living in thee most racially and ethnically diverse nation on Earth, led by a Black Man, and nobody’s leavin’.

    And be a good sport, and please pass the salt? 😉

    The Obsidian

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  130. on March 25, 2009 at 5:13 pm return of saturn

    alias clio: “30 is in effect a “kid” today.”

    That’s ridiculous. When someone turns 30 they are finally a full-grown adult – that’s when a person has fully grown in to themselves and who they will remain the rest of their life.

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  131. on March 25, 2009 at 5:16 pm twiceaday

    Hippos:

    Definitely still has some value, and probably a solid 12-15 years of attractiveness left. 39 years old.

    That video was uploaded almost a year ago, and I have a feeling it’s older than that. Look at her more recent videos where she’s sitting on the couch — she’s still decent looking, but definitely doesn’t look as good as she did in the exercise video.

    On top of that, there’s no way she’ll look nearly that good in 15 years. Women really hit a wall in their forties when they go through menopause. Which, of course, makes total sense; once a woman can no longer procreate, there’s no reason she needs to remain attractive to potential mates.

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  132. on March 25, 2009 at 5:26 pm whiskey

    J —

    The phenomena you describe is a gay male’s desire for Twinks. Guys like Pattiston or Zac Efron. Women prefer masculine men, and the amount of testosterone possessed by the pre-teen idols you describe makes them appropriate to 12 and 13 year old girls afraid of masculinity, but not particularly attractive to women post 18, and in many cases, teen girls.

    Shia LaBoef, Zac Efron, and the rest of the twinks don’t have much of an appeal beyond gay men and twelve year old girls afraid of too much testosterone. Certainly if the pool of available men is both young and high in testosterone dominance, women will prefer the younger men. But if it is the choice, and it mostly is, between older men with higher testosterone and younger guys without that dominance, women will chose the dominance and testosterone every time.

    Women on average prefer testosterone and dominance and will willingly trade off on almost everything else, all other things being equal, to get it.

    Magazine covers and gossip stuff is run by gay men. Please. Accept reality.

    Look at the leading men on TV and movies (that make money): Nic Cage, William Peterson, Gary Sinise, Mark Harmon, Kiefer Sutherland, Damien Lewis, Hugh Laurie, Anthony LaPaglia, Dennis Haysbert, Bruce Willis, Christian Bale, and Robert Downey Jr. come to mind. Many of these guys are paired off with younger leading ladies in recurring storylines that are popular with women and girls post 13 or so.

    Probably any of the teen actress group or barely out of it would prefer these guys to low testosterone twinks like Efron, fake Corporate “relationships” notwithstanding. In fact many young actresses prefer romantic scenes with the older guys, because of the inability of the younger guys to project testosterone dominance makes them look bad on screen. [If you include the personal choices of teen actresses, you see a definite pattern, Disney fake relationship aside: 10-15 years older, dominant, highly aggressive, very masculine.]

    I would agree all things being equal, women would prefer youth mixed with testosterone dominance, but things are not that equal. The young guys being promoted today lack testosterone because they are pushed by Gay Hollywood.

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  133. on March 25, 2009 at 5:41 pm Marcus Aureliette

    …In that case, I like Cougars. When referring to cougars, Roissy seems to be describing just your average middle aged single woman, most of which are absolutely hideous and dessicated.

    Well, that’s the problem that always surfaces when this topic is discussed: “cougar” is not a clearly-defined term.

    Originally it referred to a particular subset of (usually) well-preserved women over 40, who went out to bars/clubs deliberately on the prowl for sex — specifically for sex with younger men.

    It’s not a blanket term for any unattached woman 35+, it’s much more specific than that. Think Samantha from SATC.

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  134. on March 25, 2009 at 5:48 pm David Alexander

    the women who spent their valuable youth hopping from one alpha cock to another only to wake up a day late and a wedding ring short in their early 30s wondering why the alphas no longer look at them with lust in their eyes

    Maybe it’s me, but if you’re in that pool of women, maybe it’s better that you got have sex with alphas and didn’t have to deal with the indignity of dating beta male.

    Chuck, I think the “MILF” porn comes from teenage fantasies about being seduced by 28-year old sisters/aunts of high school girls.

    I would extend that and argue that MILF is really a proxy for teenage boys who find “young” mothers in their 30s and sometimes early 40s attractive. In other words, these are women who are aging well, still dress well and fashionably, and have flaws that consumer makeup products can cover up easily.

    yeah, they were brothas: sorry O! old chicks need dark meat too.

    If you’re desperate for a white woman, then yes, a depreciated hot cougar is better than nothing.

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  135. on March 25, 2009 at 5:59 pm Sparks123

    Maybe it’s me, but if you’re in that pool of women, maybe it’s better that you got have sex with alphas and didn’t have to deal with the indignity of dating beta male.

    In the short term, yes, but if a woman’s desire to pair bond ends up being denied, she’ll be filled with regret.

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  136. on March 25, 2009 at 6:05 pm Obsidian

    Whiskey,
    Just want to point out that the Shia flick Transformers was *hugely* successful, making very nice numbers both at home and worldwide, moreso than the Downey starring Iron Man. And don’t get it twisted, I loved the latter.

    Comments?

    O

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  137. on March 25, 2009 at 6:06 pm David Alexander

    cause as PA says the risk of several solid alphas having seared themselves into her hindbrain and semi or very ruining her for you goes up for each year she’s single in the big city

    I’ll wager $1000 on the ability to prove that you can easily destroy a marriage between a de facto virgin and a beta with 15 minutes of flirting by an alpha.

    What’s the golden age though for a woman to settle down?

    After she’s finished paying back her student loans, has a great career that you can brag about to your friends and family to ensure that she’s of proper rank, and she has some interesting stories to tell you while dating.

    This of course only applies to alpha males. Beta males need not apply.

    What does that tell you about the yuppie fantasy so many have invested in?

    It means we must invest all of our money into bringing it back and expanding it’s greatness to others!

    In the short term, yes, but if a woman’s desire to pair bond ends up being denied, she’ll be filled with regret.

    Yes, since she’d never regret marrying some loser beta male.

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  138. on March 25, 2009 at 6:08 pm Lupo

    PA wrote on the ideal settle age:“22-23. In our society, in any case.

    Any younger, and she won’t know what she wants. Much older than that, and you’ll be getting other guys’ discarda along with 2-3 superalphas she slept with about whom she’ll never stop thinking.”

    I agree with this, and consider it sound advice, though I have yet to meet a girl in her early 30s (your absolute upper limit) who was like this who wasn’t overwhelmingly nerdy.

    A very sad phenomenon is the 35-42 year olds who still think they are 20 and can have babies. I mean, some of them can, physically; but with who? What’s more; they sometimes temporarily delude themselves into thinking they can have them with me, which is both hilarious and insulting, like being eyeballed by the oooky fat chick at closing time.

    “OK, let’s get this straight: you’ve passed yourself around several motorcycle gangs worth of scumbags over the last 20 years … and you think I’m going to shack up with you right now and make babies because you sense your eggs are getting stale? I ain’t even interested in fucking you!” The complete lack of perspective is what makes it so spectacularly horrible. Someone has told these women a pack of lies. For all their education (they often have masters degrees or Ph.D.’s), they seem to suffer from a lack of basic intelligence about human nature.

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  139. on March 25, 2009 at 6:10 pm gig

    J may be right that girls in the 18-20 range won’t be interested in guys over 25 and outside their school/university. The whole provider idea seems alien to girls that young, also they have everything to believe that they can party for years without settling.

    once a girl starts working for real, not some summer job, and approaches the end of college they do start looking at men differently. the perspective of living without your parents makes girls look for providers or dominant male figures, as wqhiskey says. this happens post 21.

    then the girl that at 20 thought that any men over 25 was a non-entity suddenly starts noticing guys with 30

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  140. on March 25, 2009 at 6:15 pm gig

    ” none of my friends fucks my professors”

    I am shocked. With american law the way it is, protective of men whenever women areinvolved, what would prevent professors from fucking students? besides, anglo-saxon women are known in the world for never ever making false accusations…

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  141. on March 25, 2009 at 6:16 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    J may be right that girls in the 18-20 range won’t be interested in guys over 25 and outside their school/university. The whole provider idea seems alien to girls that young, also they have everything to believe that they can party for years without settling.

    once a girl starts working for real, not some summer job, and approaches the end of college they do start looking at men differently. the perspective of living without your parents makes girls look for providers or dominant male figures, as wqhiskey says. this happens post 21.

    then the girl that at 20 thought that any men over 25 was a non-entity suddenly starts noticing guys with 30

    Something else too is game. Older men are simply more likely to have it than younger men. More confidence, more life experience, more ability to handle shit-testing. When I was younger I SUCKED at passing shit tests and was naive enough to take everything at face value. Many older men through experience deal with them better. The young chicks who are really hot and are alpha females almost always go for older guys, the younger guys are much too easily intimidated and easy to game and present no challenge.

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  142. on March 25, 2009 at 6:21 pm gig

    anecdote:

    i knew about an argentinian that was in his Phd in economics in a top 10 university in the US. He was a TA. He banged a undergrad chick. She added him in facebook the very next day.

    10 months later she accuses him of rape. The last news I got he was working to pay the lawyer fees. and was yet to be judged.

    he nbanged the undergrad and left her. He pumped and dumped her. Then he starts dating another undergrad. She breaks-up. He starts sending her messages in facebook, emails, phone calls and she decides to go to the dean and accuse him of harassment. A week later, the undergrad that he banged 10 months earlier accuses him of rape. Everyone believes that the harassed girl went to the pumped and dumped girl in order to screw him

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  143. on March 25, 2009 at 6:24 pm gig

    the story in roissyesque because we have:

    – an american slut being pumped and dumped by a foreigner
    – a beta begging a girl to return thus earning her contempt
    – the amorality of the girl accusing him of harassment and, specially, plotting with another girl to have him ARRESTED or rxpelled from the US.
    – american law siding with slutiness and amorality against men

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  144. on March 25, 2009 at 6:27 pm David Alexander

    none of my friends fucks my professors

    I am shocked.

    Maybe they shouldn’t be fucking their students since it reeks of bias and unfairness.

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  145. on March 25, 2009 at 6:32 pm Kthulah

    Lupo says, “they seem to suffer from a lack of basic intelligence about human nature.”

    Well, there is hope. Some girls listen to Slipknot, read Nietzsche, and have no illusions about general human nature being loving beyond practical usefulness.

    …not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but the usefulness = attachment was evolved during a time when there weren’t so many excess humans running around thinking they deserved to live and reproduce.

    When discussing relationships/social matters, each of us should remember that we’re all one twist of fate, or a few birthdays away from reduction of our practical usefulness.

    So though it may be nice to think one has all the time in the world, and can look down on others whose time has past…your time will come too, if you survive long enough.

    Men may have a few years more, but they don’t have forever either.

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  146. on March 25, 2009 at 6:33 pm Obsidian

    Just to followup on my earlier point to Whiskey, and in case anyone else is interested…

    I just looked up both films, Transformers, starring Shia LeBeouf, and Iron Man, starring Robert Downey Jr., on Wikipedia. Here’s the financial breakdown:

    Transformers
    Budget $151 MIL
    Gross $ 708 MIL

    Iron Man
    Budget $140 MIL
    Gross $582 MIL

    From this, it would appear that at least part of Whiskey’s analysis is a bit off. Actually, quite a bit, if monies made back on these films means anything, and that is what he was attempting to argue.

    Transformers is staring down a cool billion in total gross revunes. Iron Man on the other hand, aint doing bad at all at half a bil, but half a bil a bil don’t make.

    Looks like you got some splainin’ to do, Whiskey… 😉

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

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  147. on March 25, 2009 at 6:34 pm Sparks123

    Just want to point out that the Shia flick Transformers was *hugely* successful, making very nice numbers both at home and worldwide, moreso than the Downey starring Iron Man.

    “Transformers” was an established brand and there were a ton of people seeing it out of 80s nostalgia. There’s no way that Shia could ever carry a movie by himself.

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  148. on March 25, 2009 at 6:35 pm Bhetti

    Quality guys my age aren’t interested and can’t handle LTR. I’ll need to keep awareness out for older guys once out of swearing off males phase. Some social inappropriateness of it these days; mother married professor but no way it’d happen here. (Not soon: cut off communications with crazy ex after last straw and at behest of my brother yesterday. He warned me to ‘run away if I see him on street’. Still shaking/nausea: from anger, fear, hell if I know?)

    DA: Don’t understimate the pleasure dominating some ‘loser beta male’ — who keeps mentioning the agonies of a ‘loser beta male’ — can bring a woman. Let us be clear about the level of physical pain here. I know right now I’d enjoy it.

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  149. on March 25, 2009 at 6:43 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    O – keep in mind that Transformers sold mostly due to the Transformers nostalgia, not due to Shia. Most people watched it in spite of Shia, not because of him. And I hardly heard anyone saying, either before or after the movie that he greatly enhanced the experience for them. No one said he ruined it either, I just think his effect on box office was negligible. On the other hand, Robert Downey and his charisma/good looks were a major motivator for people to see Iron Man, and the number one thing people raved about after seeing it. Also, keep in mind that Iron Man’s box office was cut short by an incredibly brutal competitive summer and lost much of its potential box office to The Dark Knight, a movie headlined by two guys in their 30s (Bale and Eckhart) and another pushing 30 (Ledger), all of whom women found sexy and raved about.

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  150. on March 25, 2009 at 6:43 pm Obsidian

    Sparks,
    No doubt, what you say about the pre existing history and fan following of Transformers is true. But the same could be said of ole Shellhead, too; I myself read the comics and am old enough 2 remember when he was called “The Golden Avenger”.

    No matter what the case, a multi million dollar project like Transformers, with so much riding on it, had to have someone who, if they couldn’t carry the flick, at the very least couldn’t get in the way. SLB in my view, did the latter. We all know Optimus Prime was the star of the flick.

    So again, Whiskey’s analysis in this instance might not quite fit.

    Comments?

    O

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  151. on March 25, 2009 at 6:43 pm Willard Libby

    Let’s examine Nicole Kidman’s beauty regimen.

    Nicole Kidman and beauty don’t belong in the same sentence.

    whiskey – The phenomena you describe is a gay male’s desire for Twinks. Guys like Pattiston or Zac Efron. Women prefer masculine men,

    whiskey you are living in a beta male’s fantasy world where mythic high testosterone Alpha males control all the hot women.

    In the real world it doesn’t work that way.

    Plenty of gorgeous women prefer weak looking low testosterone guys who are not at all gay. They aren’t necessarily beta males but they are often very unmasculine looking and sometimes a bit scrawny.

    I’ve seen it among celebrities and non-celebrities alike.

    These women are not going to be lured away by NFL muscleheads, biker gang members or money obsessed you go getters.

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  152. on March 25, 2009 at 6:43 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Curious, how old are you Bhetti?

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  153. on March 25, 2009 at 6:46 pm Willard Libby

    Let’s examine Nicole Kidman’s beauty regimen.

    Nicole Kidman and beauty don’t belong in the same sentence.

    whiskey – The phenomena you describe is a gay male’s desire for Twinks. Guys like Pattiston or Zac Efron. Women prefer masculine men,

    whiskey you are living in a beta male’s fantasy world where mythic high testosterone Alpha males control all the hot women.

    In the real world it doesn’t work that way.

    Plenty of gorgeous women prefer weak looking low testosterone guys who are not at all gay. They aren’t necessarily beta males but they are often very unmasculine looking and sometimes a bit scrawny.

    I’ve seen it among celebrities and non-celebrities alike.

    These women are not going to be lured away by NFL muscleheads, biker gang members or money obsessed young go getters.

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  154. on March 25, 2009 at 6:47 pm Pupu

    All gals — cougars or hotties, lonely or happy — look cute in stick figure pictures.

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  155. on March 25, 2009 at 6:56 pm Obsidian

    T-Raw,
    Granted, all of what you say I concede, but again I am challenging Whiskey’s premise that younger guys like SLB don’t really make money in Hollywood and older guys like Downey do. I think its a bit more complex than that. Just a weebit.

    For the record, I loved both films but for different reasons. Downey *carried* IM in a way SBL never could for Transformers, absolutely, no diggity, no doubt about it. And, Downey was a big gamble for Paramount/Marvel given his personal history. So my hat goes off to him.

    Now, having said that, I gotta give it up for Heath Ledger. He did the damn thing as The Joker. I LOVED his grand entrance scene when he meets all the Gangstas of Gotham…slowly walking into the room, laughing in a off-kilter way:

    Ha ha ha ha…ha ha ha…ooo, ee, aha, o, ha, ee, aha, o, ha, aha.

    I’ve watched that about 100 times. Got it down pat and actually have tried it out in some settings, just to see what kind of reaction I’d get?

    The females LOVE IT. Because they love the unusual, the shocking, the strange. Shiny shit of a different kind.

    Speaking of which, Downey’s Toney Stark and Ledger’s Joker make for excellent studies in Game Theory, too. I’ve carefully reviewed both films, and have learned much.

    Anyone care to discuss?

    The Obsidian

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  156. on March 25, 2009 at 7:05 pm Seeking Alpha

    Transformers is staring down a cool billion in total gross revunes. Iron Man on the other hand, aint doing bad at all at half a bil, but half a bil a bil don’t make.

    Hate to be the math geek here but O, your analysis is waaaaay off. Rounding $700mm up to a billion and $580 down to $500 is not even close. It’s really $700 vs. $600.

    You’re still right that Transformers did a little better than Iron Man, but I think that’s because of the other factors mentioned.

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  157. on March 25, 2009 at 7:11 pm Obsidian

    Well, SA, who’s counting when you’re talking in the hundreds of millions, right? 😉

    But yea, I see your point. Good lookin out.

    O

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  158. on March 25, 2009 at 7:14 pm joel

    Regarding skin damage and UV light and skin color and all.

    Since the European expansion stated in the 16th century, pale skinned Europeans have moved all over the world, mainly to lower latitudes. Look at the map. The latitude of NYC is the same as Madrid Spain. Silly freckle faced white girls lie out on the beach here in Ocean City, MD, which is at the same latitude as North Africa. They also lie out on the beach in Florida.

    Dumb? Very. So, bad skin is linked to low IQ in white people, that’s for sure.

    Is black skin therefore better? O.J Simpson had ricketts. Black/dark skin is very bad in climates without strong sunlight. Imagine if food stopped being supplemented with vitamin D. I doubt black people could survive in many parts of the USA, and certainly nowhere in Canada or Northern Europe.

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  159. on March 25, 2009 at 7:24 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Is black skin therefore better? O.J Simpson had ricketts. Black/dark skin is very bad in climates without strong sunlight. Imagine if food stopped being supplemented with vitamin D. I doubt black people could survive in many parts of the USA, and certainly nowhere in Canada or Northern Europe.

    *Sigh*

    No one said black skin is universally “better.” Stop turning everything into a “my race is better than your race” hangup. The question was specifically whether black skin noticeably resists aging and sun damage better even in modern times. The answer is yes. No need to defensively counter with irrelevant extras like “yes, but blacks can get rickets and can’t survive in Canada or Northern Europe.” No one said they could and no one is even discussing that point. It’s like you feel you can’t admit anything negative about white people without defensively adding a qualifier.

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  160. on March 25, 2009 at 7:30 pm Sparks123

    Speaking of which, Downey’s Toney Stark and Ledger’s Joker make for excellent studies in Game Theory, too.

    Mehow likes to talk about being an “evil clown,” entertaining yourself and not really caring what others thinks, as opposed to being a “dancing monkey,” being there solely for the group’s entertainment. And who’s more of an evil clown than the Joker?

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  161. on March 25, 2009 at 7:31 pm Obsidian

    Joel,
    Good point. Like many Black folk, I can’t do milk, man. Tears my ass up! Gotta be that high assed Lactaid, or nothing at all, and yup, I take supplements on the vitamin D tip.

    Having said that, I like to get “Shaka Zulu Black” in the Summertime. I just go out in the sun and do whatever, always did that, never had any problems, and actually, I felt energized by it. Sounds kinda weird, but I don’t dig cold weather at all, man. Fall weather is cool, but not that Antartic stuff.

    O

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  162. on March 25, 2009 at 7:49 pm Obsidian

    Sparks, Mehow’s on it, and actually goes back to what I’ve said before: I do what I do because I LIKE IT, not in the hope of getting some gal’s attention. The Joker’s a genius, man. That’s why the Batman could never really do anything w/him, if you study the comic history and so on, especially early on in its run.

    Women dig freaks, man. If anyone doubts that, tell them to head to their nearest death row. Guys like the Joker are unpredictable, and as we all know, being predictable w/Women is the death knell t your impending doom.

    Now, again, err body can’t pull off Joker Game. You gotta be a outgoing, adventurous, narcissistic & and just downright I don’t give a fuck kind of guy to do it. But for those who do-and I’ve known guys down through the years who had serious, mean Joker Game whether they knew it or not-it’s a Mutha.

    Word.

    Holla back
    O

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  163. on March 25, 2009 at 7:55 pm dougjnn

    I just found this over at Lupo’s site which I’ve started reading some. He comments here on occasion. He’s a late thirties or early 40’s alpha in very good shape; he lifts more than 400 lbs. He teaches experimental method to medical students at Berkeley. His view of sluts is reminiscent of Roissy’s, though he’s comfrom a combo of evo-psych and a sinning Catholic pointer of view:

    Women who sit on a barrel of dicks lose the ability to bond to a man in the way they had before they sat on a big barrel of dicks. I think the mean number of dongs before bonding failure is actually very low. Of course, the median lifetime number of dicks a woman experiences in her lifetime is actually a very low number. In America it’s something like 3-4. I think much above that number, you might as well try to shack up with a $20 prostitute. Not that I have anything against slutty women who can’t bond with me; I actually prefer them. And, you know: I probably could get them to feel some kind of emotional bond (and often have), but it won’t be anything resembling love -it will look a lot more like psychological abuse to the casual observer. But you can’t build a serious marriage or society out of such people. It’s one of those horrifying facts of life nobody admits, but anyone with life experience can see is true. It also shows up in the general social survey. Your probability of divorce is extremely high if your wife has sat on a big barrel of dicks. There are, of course, statistical outliers, but anyone who has built trading systems knows you can’t bank on outliers.

    As such, despite being an enthusiastic practitioner of such, I would advise anybody that premarital sex is extremely unhealthy, and generally a bad idea. It should be forbidden, and people like me should be drawn and quartered to protect the morals of young women. Of course, we live in a diseased society, so that will never happen, but I’m just saying why pre marital sex is bad.

    http://lupoleboucher.livejournal.com/91498.html?thread=1541226#t1541226

    Sound’s just like Vladamir.

    So there’s some science behind the notion that a woman’s have “sat on a big barrel of dicks” and the strong tendency to not intensely emotionally bond afterwards, but rather to divorce more often.

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  164. on March 25, 2009 at 7:58 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Good stuff there doug, I need to check out Lupo’s blog more often. “Sitting on a barrel of dicks” is now my new favorite slut descriptor.

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  165. on March 25, 2009 at 8:08 pm Gunslingergregi

    Hey T what were those black racist sites again?

    If I am gonna be on a black power site it might as well be a real one. Might be fun to lend some white perspective. Get some attention.

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  166. on March 25, 2009 at 8:11 pm Gunslingergregi

    Or Kthun you could give me your sites too.

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  167. on March 25, 2009 at 8:44 pm ironrailsironweights

    Does anyone have any statistics on exactly how many cougars there are in the US? I feel that the extent of this demographic has been overhyped, thus worrying about a small subset of the population seems rather silly. Either writing an article in the Boston Globe, or analyzing their behavior here on these boards.

    My thoughts also. The older women/younger men speed dating event in the article had to be canceled because it didn’t get the ten men it needed. As I believe speed dating events have equal numbers of men and women, we’re talking about a planned total of ten cougars and ten cougar-lovers. Not what I’d call vast numbers.

    Peter

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  168. on March 25, 2009 at 8:52 pm T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Hey T what were those black racist sites again?

    If I am gonna be on a black power site it might as well be a real one. Might be fun to lend some white perspective. Get some attention.

    What are you talking about?

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  169. on March 25, 2009 at 9:13 pm Gunslingergregi

    nm I just went to your site fucking amazing. I think I get it now. It’s all good. Everyones in pain.

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  170. on March 25, 2009 at 9:14 pm whiskey

    Transformers succeeded in spite of LaBoef, Iron Man succeeded BECAUSE of Downey. That’s the key difference. In Transformers, the special effects and nostalgia storyline was the star, LaBoef in say, that movie with Julianne Moore was a flop. Whereas say, Willis is often a guy who’s presence indicates a hit. Downey less so, but taken together the Cage/Downey/Willis per-picture average for films that are aimed at broad audiences beats that of Zac Efron, LaBoef, and Ashton Kutcher. Even though the former have more films that flopped.

    In fact, Shia LaBoef was the main complaint about the last Indiana Jones movie. He generated male hate in the extreme, without a corresponding female love.

    Besides, women 18-22 often date older guys. They might be grad students, or various youngish professionals they meet in bars and whatnot. But the more dominant, masculine guys vs. boyish frat guys generate more Testosterone derived attraction.

    It’s not beta provider time that makes older guys more attractive, it’s the lack of testosterone dominance in younger guys.

    T AKA Ricky Raw is absolutely right. Jay Leno memorably teased the 17 year old Hillary Duff for essentially living with some guy from Blink 182 or some other band. A guy 15 years her senior. Her point was, that she had nothing in common with a kid her age on a skateboard. Even taking away fame and wealth, a girl generally matures earlier and does not like the teen boy immaturity that can plague a lot of guys her same age. Not all take it to Duff’s extremes, but will date older (a College guy or something) all the time.

    Willard — No, beautiful and otherwise merely attractive do NOT prefer low testosterone guys. Which is beside my point about twinks beloved by Gays but no one else. Really, do you think women over 19 are going to go gaga over Efron, versus say Christian Bale? Or Daniel Craig? I mean, really.

    Besides, you make the assumption error of dominance = huge muscles. Not always the same. Women will SETTLE for low testosterone guys if the money is right, they have no other options, the guy is famous, or other stuff. But look Evan Rachel Wood. Famously hooked up with both Marilyn Manson and Mickey Rourke. Both freaks, but high testosterone dominant freaks. The former would not appear particularly muscular or command male respect, but in his own freaky way is quite socially dominant.

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  171. on March 25, 2009 at 9:15 pm Kthulah

    Joel and Obsidian, Africans who still know how to eat have diets with a substantial amount of vitamin D. How they get it is by eating marine animals that eat alot of plankton, and by eating eggs and animal fat, as well as fermenting certain things.

    A good bit of the obesity problem with Black women in the U.S. I’m positive, is from misinformation about what they should be eating, and how to prepare it for our needs.

    What’s funny is that there are doctors who’ve written on this extensively, but they’re not getting much press outside the internet and the odd diet guru who takes snippets but is afraid to deviate from the popular sources.

    Anyway, one easy and digestable way to get enough vitamin D is cod liver oil. Take some of that daily, and you’re fixed.

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  172. on March 25, 2009 at 9:32 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Back in the old days, when gay guys had to be in the closet, some of them took to lonely older women to be “beards.”

    Anyone remember Mark Harris, who married the elderly comedian Martha Raye in 1991. They used to mock him on Howard Stern. There was also the (real life) guy who inspired “How Stella Got Her Groove Back”‘ — turned out her was gay, too. In fact, that book probably started the cougar craze.

    Anyway, does anyone think Ashton might be in the closet about his sexuality? Anyone know otherwise? Somehow I don’t see the tightly-wound Demi as liking sex too much.

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  173. on March 25, 2009 at 9:37 pm Willard Libby

    whiskey – Willard — No, beautiful and otherwise merely attractive do NOT prefer low testosterone guys. Which is beside my point about twinks beloved by Gays but no one else. Really, do you think women over 19 are going to go gaga over Efron, versus say Christian Bale? Or Daniel Craig? I mean, really.

    Besides, you make the assumption error of dominance = huge muscles. Not always the same. Women will SETTLE for low testosterone guys if the money is right, they have no other options, the guy is famous, or other stuff. But look Evan Rachel Wood. Famously hooked up with both Marilyn Manson and Mickey Rourke. Both freaks, but high testosterone dominant freaks. The former would not appear particularly muscular or command male respect, but in his own freaky way is quite socially dominant.

    whiskey with all due respect you are out of your mind. Plenty of good looking women fall in love with, want to have sex with and are captivated by men who are NOT the stereotypical high testosterone alpha males.

    Guy, stop being so Aspergy about this. You sound like a nerd who has all these theories that you demand the real world must conform to.

    Plenty of hot, beautiful women are not mere bags of hormones waiting to be “gamed” by the Alpha/high T man of your nightmares.

    I’m talking about women in the real world.

    And yes, I think there are plenty of gorgeous girls over 19 who prefer Zach Efron over Christian Bale or Daniel Craig.

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  174. on March 25, 2009 at 9:43 pm Gina

    Had three long term relationships in my twenties. Now I’m 30. I never slept around, yet I wasn’t really in love with these men. My fault, totally and completely. Have learned from this. Now that I’m back in school with younger women I definitely notice that I’m sexy still, but an older woman and the men I’m sure are more attracted to the under 25 women. Yes, its been a major reality chek that I’m glad to have had. I also live in LA, just moved here and have gone out with two men who aren’t really for me (remember, lesson learned), and since I do want to get married and avoid lifelong cougarhood, I stop seeing them quickly. I hope it works out. I do also notice that younger men (more than a year) never ask me out. But men all the way into their 60’s seem quite interested in me (flattering to me!)

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  175. on March 25, 2009 at 9:56 pm Obsidian

    Whiskey,
    Fair enough, you make some solid points, as have Sparks and T-Raw. Perhaps we can compare Downey/Cage/Willis, to say, Orlando Bloom, Tobey Maguire, & someone other than SBL, who has a bit higher profile in films and a bit longer track record. I don’t know, Daniel Radcliffe? Ethan Hawke? Elijah Wood? Someone like that, and let’s compare the numbers. I think that would be interesting to see how Whiskey’s theories pan out.

    Anyone game?

    O

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  176. on March 25, 2009 at 9:57 pm David Alexander

    Don’t understimate the pleasure dominating some ‘loser beta male’ — who keeps mentioning the agonies of a ‘loser beta male’ — can bring a woman. Let us be clear about the level of physical pain here. I know right now I’d enjoy it.

    It’s not pleasurable, otherwise, Wellesley Queen would have kept me around as a little loyal sycophant. There is no market for any beta male what soever. Even ugly girls would rather stay alone than go beta.

    Like many Black folk, I can’t do milk, man.

    David drinks milk and eats quite a bit of cheese with very little trouble. OTOH, I can get a hint of a tan in the summer (and I can blush too), and during the summer, standing around in the sun for too long can sometimes eat my stomach alive. Hell, my mom grew up drinking fresh milk from her uncle’s farm in Haiti…

    Sounds kinda weird, but I don’t dig cold weather at all, man.

    I love fall, but I always make a point to hold fresh snow in my hand without gloves at least once each winter. Cold without wind and adequate coat and layers isn’t that bad, and on a nice sunny day, the air can be crisp and fresh and invigorating.

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  177. on March 25, 2009 at 10:04 pm Obsidian

    Im curious to get Whiskey’s thought about this name: Edward Norton. I saw his take on the Hulk, which I very much liked, since he basically continued in line with the Bill Bixby series back in the day, and I recently saw him in The 25th Hour. Norton doesn’t strike me as “manly”, yet he’s done quite a few films…maybe we can check the numbers and see what happens?

    Comments?

    O

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  178. on March 25, 2009 at 10:10 pm Obsidian

    Nicole, thanks so much for the helpful advice. I will definitely look into what you suggest.

    O

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  179. on March 25, 2009 at 10:16 pm gig

    whiskey

    I am not saying that all girls at 21 start searching beta providers. what I mean is they kind of live in a bubble untl 21. boys and girls listen the same music, see the same tv programs andso on. the 18-20 group is a tribe full of codes that exclude the non initiated. a tribe that despises those below and above it.

    but this tribe is broken once the realities of aging and working settle in. The girl J in this thread. Three years from now she will despise that SHia whatever entity that she adores now. Right now every guy she knows also knows who shia is and any guy 25 and above, don’t. Once reality hits her she will realize that her tribal criteria to exclude guys over 25 are too shallow.

    just follow the half +7 rule. Right now at 19 any guy above 24 is alien to her. At 22, her upper bound will have increased to 30. And the lower bound that was probably 19 when she was 19 will jump accordingly.

    It is not alphaness x betaness. The criteria girls in the 18-20 group use to exclude older guys are naive at best, idiotic at worst.but look quite sensible to her and her friends. Once she realizes the enormous pool of alphas above her threshold, the shia poster will go to the trash can. that is why that commenter gannon was wise. Girls should marry early because the husband gets many years of prime fuckability and the girl is prevented from slutting around.

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  180. on March 25, 2009 at 10:25 pm Sparks123

    Norton is a very good actor in that he can play both alpha and beta. His character in “American History X” has a lot of misdirected masculinity and in “Fight Club” he plays a guy who evolves from beta to alpha. Also check out “Primal Fear.”

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  181. on March 25, 2009 at 10:31 pm Obsidian

    Will do, Sparks. I haven’t watched many Norton films, so I’ll check him out.

    O

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  182. on March 25, 2009 at 10:48 pm Anonymous

    The only thing that levels the playing field for cougars is the current phenomenon that every year younger people are getting fatter. If you look at high school and college kids now, a majority of them are fat. So are most people in their early twenties. Not just overweight, they are downright fat. As a woman in my 30’s who works out and is not fat, I can tell you that I get hit on a lot and mostly by younger guys. I am not a cougar either! I don’t date younger guys. The number of thin people in America is diminishing, and I can tell you they are the ones who get hit on constantly.

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  183. on March 25, 2009 at 10:55 pm whiskey

    Willard: SEAN PENN and Natalie Portman. I think I can safely rest my case.

    Caveat: your assessment of women’s preferences would I think apply to women 25 years ago and backwards. But in the urban professional environment where women earn as much if not more than men, have generally higher status, no, women don’t want or need beta type providers. They want excitement and dominance in whatever form.

    You’re either older, and working from data that is seriously out-of-date wrt today’s women, or swallowing feminist propaganda.

    I know many nice, professional, solid, good judgment, funny, and attractive professional women through graduate school, business, and charities. To a woman, they all chose men who were dominant and highly charged with testosterone in some way. Some were masters of the universe go getters, others amateur motocross racers, others talented indie musicians, none were Mr. Nice Guy Joe Average. Roissy’s own observations, that of every other PUA Guru, and the massive complaints by nerdy guys lacking in testosterone dominance attest to the validity of this admittedly anecdotal observation.

    You really are not offering any data, and data is always nice. I’d like to be proven wrong, it would be a much better world and sounder future for my own behind if you were right and I was wrong. I just don’t see any data pointing that way, and all the data I do see points the other way.

    Just repeating PC feminist dogma does not make something true. Women have near absolute mating power now, and their preferences show greatly. [Please, some aging cougar at age 39 settling for some beta guy after racking up 60 plus guys is not proof. Rather the other way around. If that’s what you’re talking about.]

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  184. on March 25, 2009 at 11:06 pm Jack

    Shia? Cole? Ash? These are names of GUYS? haha

    I have a 23-year-old friend who is dating a 27 year old girl. She’s ok looking but nothing special. I’m not sure why he’s dating her, it’s regular sex I guess, but what happens in a couple years when she wants to get married? He’ll be pretty young. I have another friend, a 28 yr old, daying a 30 year old. But she is hot and nice too, and it will probably last. Seems like most guys date women a year to four or five younger, with the outliers of course.

    Since I’m 31 and in school surrounded by younger, I do wonder what might be seen by some as “creepy” (not that I care, I just wonder). Unfortunately, many girls here have boyfriends already. Interestingly, the 22yr olds right out of undergrad often show more interest than the 27 yr olds. But these young ones require more game and can be flaky. I look like a kid, complicating things, because most people here think Im about 23 at first.

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  185. on March 25, 2009 at 11:13 pm Kthulah

    Obsidian, once you look into it, you find out there’s ALOT we’re not being told growing up. One thing that floored me was that *all* grains we eat should be fermented, and preferably milled to remove most of the bran. Corn should be processed into hominy like in nixtamal or grits, or at least soaked overnight with some mildly acidic water. We should get our fiber mostly from green, leafy vegetables, and a smaller proportion from legumes or firm root vegetables, not from grains. If we have no choice but to get it from grains, we need the bran softened through fermentation soaking.

    Since I started shifting our diet to primitive, everybody in the house is slimming down and feeling better and more energetic. Glycemic index seems to be more important to watch than calories. One should balance the two, but the former will kind of take care of the latter as far as what you’ll burn.

    I’m feeling like my old near hyperactive self again. 🙂

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  186. on March 25, 2009 at 11:14 pm dougjnn

    Gina–

    Had three long term relationships in my twenties. Now I’m 30. I never slept around, yet I wasn’t really in love with these men. My fault, totally and completely. Have learned from this. Now that I’m back in school with younger women I definitely notice that I’m sexy still, but an older woman and the men I’m sure are more attracted to the under 25 women. Yes, its been a major reality chek that I’m glad to have had.

    Looks permitting you sound like strong relationship / marriage material to me, given your history. Being with men you didn’t really love may have delayed your finding someone you will, but it also isn’t going to be a barrier to deeply bonding with him when you do. You haven’t fallen intensely in love yet.

    But you need to GET RIGHT ON IT. Time is rapidly running out, meaning the quality of guy you can find to marry will rapidly diminish. Chop chop. If you want kids you need to get on that right after too.

    Ending dating quickly when it’s not going anywhere serious is the right way to go. Look especially for guys five or especially ten years older than you. By going older you should be buying more alpha or nearly alpha. Out in the wider LA world probably rather than at your college would be the main place to look. Many men in this age group will be actively looking to settle down. These are where you’ll likely be able to get higher quality in overall attractiveness, because especially those at or pushing 40 are less likely to be successful with hot mid twenties girls — unless they’re real alphas with strong game.

    LA is one tough market in female looks competition. Unless you’re at least an 8 there and maybe a 9, you’re going to likely have a hard time getting a guy that’s both clearly successful status and money wise, and good looking. Be realistic. Care more about game/masculine uuumph and status/success and settle on looks would be my advice, though YMMV. It’s the game/masculine ummph that will give you thrills and deep attraction once you’re in it with him, more than looks.

    You’d have to give where you fall in physical attractiveness on a ten point scale, without inflating or being modest, for further advice. 10 = spectacular; 9 = hot hot (ie beautiful) 8=hot; very pretty; 7=hot; clearly pretty; 6=cute; 5=good looking; 4=ok, not bad.

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  187. on March 25, 2009 at 11:32 pm Rum

    Willard Libby

    The problem with your assertion is that you overlook a basic rule regarding womens sexuality: When they are in the mood to build a nest they are perfectly willing to pretend to be attracted to a beta provider type. IOWs, they can easily fake that sort of thing in a way that a guy straight guy would never dream of doing. I mean, what guy has ever just pretended to crave a womans body unless they were simply in it for the money or trying to hide gayness to get married? But women do it ROUTINELY when they are in a hurry to settle down.
    Here is the real test: Did women of similar hotness eagerly share wets spots on the sheets with you before your late 20s and you have a good job? If not, be very, very cautious.

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  188. on March 25, 2009 at 11:40 pm femaloo

    Duh –

    female beauty and then youth are the most impoirtant things a woman can have and these are like 90% of the determining factors of whether a man will be interested in you, court you, marry you.

    Culturally and biologically women are expected to marry and produce – the sooner the better.

    But modern times have allowed women different options. Some women are stuck with options they dont like. But not every woman wants to have child or be married or have children and be married to someone that doesnt light their fire.

    Seems hard for the men on this board to realize that there are women who do CHOOSE spinsterhood. They look at is as an option and dont look at it as spinsterhood but a single life they choose to fill in one way or another. Sometimes wnjoyment of being a spinster is equal to being married with children. There are so many miserable people out there who are married with children….seems so oddto believe that men can still drink and believe the koolaid – that ALL women want to be married with children even at the expense of misery and hating the person you are with.

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  189. on March 25, 2009 at 11:41 pm Cali

    Speaking of Ashton, there’s no way he’ll still be with Demi in 5 years. He’ll see the light and dump her for some chick half her age. He knows it, she probably also knows it.

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  190. on March 25, 2009 at 11:41 pm dougjnn

    Jack–

    Since I’m 31 and in school surrounded by younger, I do wonder what might be seen by some as “creepy” (not that I care, I just wonder). Unfortunately, many girls here have boyfriends already. Interestingly, the 22yr olds right out of undergrad often show more interest than the 27 yr olds. But these young ones require more game and can be flaky. I look like a kid, complicating things, because most people here think Im about 23 at first

    It’s a feminist meme that men dating any more than a year or as you say at most 4 or 5 younger is “creepy”. They’ll even say chauvanistic, or looking for a golddigger, etc. Ignore it and go younger. you’ve answered your own question.

    If you look like a kid figure out how to change that. Dress differently. Sharper, not too casual. Hairstyle. Lift weights. Don’t spin, or do elipticals or other cardio; join a gym hopefully at your school and get on weight machines.

    And learn some game. Read all of Roissy. From start two years ago until now. Read Stuass’s “Game”. That’s a start; there are others but begin there. For extra credit read through roissy’s comment threads too, the one’s that talk about game. Figure out the alpha commenters and just read them to save time.

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  191. on March 25, 2009 at 11:49 pm Willard Libby

    Rum – Willard Libby, The problem with your assertion is that you overlook a basic rule regarding womens sexuality: When they are in the mood to build a nest they are perfectly willing to pretend to be attracted to a beta provider type.

    No, the basic rule regarding women’s sexuality is PAY ATTENTION TO ACTUAL WOMEN AND HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

    That means rejecting feminist/PC lies and agit prop AND rejecting silly cartoon like exaggerations of evolutionary psychology and borderline autistic/Asperger’s syndrome like theories of human behavior.

    Earlier I was not referring to Alpha versus Beta males so much as stereotypical masculine males versus less masculine males.

    Real women are not Star Wars action figures. There is a lot of variation in what they actually prefer in males.

    Just as some women and male feminists like to pretend that Game has no effect on modern women, a lot of men with a superficial understanding of women don’t understand that many women really are attracted to men who don’t fit into the category of man that evolutionary psychology and PUA theory claims she should want.

    roissy has an interesting site but it does attract guys who are nerdy – note takers when it comes to women. They have that list and that comfortable theory about women and they’ll be dammed if they are going to allow ACTUAL women and actual women’s preferences change their minds.

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  192. on March 25, 2009 at 11:50 pm Tarl

    Seems hard for the men on this board to realize that there are women who do CHOOSE spinsterhood.

    Oh sure, women can choose selfish hedonism if they want, but few of them seem to understand that the window of opportunity for female selfish hedonism is brief, and once it is closed it is closed forever. (The same does not hold true for men, of course.) There are plenty of cougars out there who appear to regret their choice, and they end up denied both the pleasures of marriage / children and the pleasures of selfish hedonism. All that’s left is owning cats!

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  193. on March 25, 2009 at 11:51 pm femaloo

    RUM is correct – many women fake attraction to men…Its not just for the rich sugar daddy or celebrity – its for the ordinary joes too. So many people lie to themselves about so many things – why should men believe it is only men lieing to their SO’s or random girl to maintain relationship where they can have regular sex even if bad, so long as they dont have to scrounge for it in the singles market. Women will lie to you and fake their attraction, fake the orgasms and fake the enjoyment. ive done it. We do it for a variety of reasons. Sometimes to boost male ego, sometimes out of boredom, sometimes faking leads to the idea that you can enjoy it even though you really dont, and sometimes just not to hurt a man’s feelings.

    So many men talk about the overwhelming insecurity of women – (we are) but try to hide their own deeper seated insecurities. I guarantee you you can break a man to the point he will never recover and is a shell but you cant break a women, being more flexible and emotionally open, we heal faster and accept our insecurities as a fact of life, men have to bury them deep otherwise they are forever emasculated.

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  194. on March 25, 2009 at 11:57 pm Rum

    Willard

    Your post reminded me of Shakespere “Full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.”
    You are just guessing, blindly, as to the life experience of your fellow posters.

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  195. on March 25, 2009 at 11:58 pm Kthulah

    Femaloo, but there is such a thing as doing whatever you choose to do, or are forced to do, with some dignity.

    I wasn’t into slutting around in non freak venues when I was young…Why would I do that now that I’m older?

    Nobody is saying that someone shouldn’t enjoy their sexuality. I certainly did, within the bounds of a firm grip on reality, which, for me, included a patent dislike of casual sex. I wasn’t the least bit boring though. To me, sexual freedom meant the freedom to tell my committed partner how I liked it, and maybe to have a few committed non-sex partners who liked to crawl and kiss my toes.

    It’s all good so long as it’s done mindfully.

    I’m aware that because of my kinks, some guys will run away from me screaming. They may also do so because of my age, weight, or whatever other reasons…but I’m not going out there begging for the sexual attention of guys who can’t get into what I’m into.

    The problem with the whole cougar thing is that they were unrealistic when they were young, and are still unrealistic now that they’re older. They think young guys are trying to get with them for reasons other than casual sex…and some of them may well be, but they are a small minority.

    So a woman who wants to be single forever…cool. It’s her choice and nobody’s knocking that.

    A woman who wants to marry and have kids though, had better do that in a realistic schedule, and not fritter away opportunities with good guys just because it doesn’t match the Hollywood image. Granted, guys should do the same, but well…they’ll pay for their choices too.

    Aside of the usual haters, most of the people here are just saying folks, male, female, whatever, need to have their feet on the ground when it comes to romantic relationships. Your options are not going to get better as you get older. You might get lucky, but you probably won’t…and you seriously won’t if you stack the odds against yourself by fighting against nature, which gifts you with wonderful bonding hormones and mechanisms that you shouldn’t screw up by mistraining yourself.

    For a woman who doesn’t consciously enjoy sex without attachment, casual sex is like the equivalent of those experiments with lab rats where they put death scent on the coochies of female rats and sent male rats to mate with them as their first intercourse.

    You get used to doing guys who are dead inside, or at least dead to you, and you’ll get habituated. It’ll be harder to even recognize when someone actually cares.

    With as much kink as I’ve had in my life, I still know if a guy cares for me from the first kiss. No amount of denial or modern psychobabble has ever been able to change that about me. As butch as I am in some ways, you’d think I’d be harder…but deep down, I’m a fragile flower.

    …and I’d like to keep it that way.

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  196. on March 26, 2009 at 12:05 am David Alexander

    It’s a feminist meme that men dating any more than a year or as you say at most 4 or 5 younger is “creepy”. They’ll even say chauvanistic, or looking for a golddigger, etc. Ignore it and go younger. you’ve answered your own question.

    Interestingly, my feminist friends were dating men who were five to ten years older, and many of them encouraged me or said it was okay for me to date younger women, and dismissed my theories of said girls being “too stupid” as mere silliness.

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  197. on March 26, 2009 at 12:06 am femaloo

    Cougars are older women who are on the prowl – but not all older women are on the prowl and are cougars….you guys seem to have a very limited understanding of older women and the choices they make – for every andrea (chick who wrote the settle NOW article or die alone) there is another who has accepted being alone because they never found someone to spend the rest oftheir lives with or they decided they were not the marryinhg or child raising kind.

    Many guys on this board must be young betas who cling to their belief system no differently then the hot chick who thinks her market value will be the same even when she is in her 40’s…

    I am not in 40;s but 30’s. I think it is likely that I will end up all spinstery – too bad I dont like cats. I do like books, travel, bad movies and people though. I have nieces and nephews and i dont know if i want to have children. I get hit on reglarily and cant be bothered. im not interested and every line or method or tactic is a different version of the same lameness. I will enjoy my friends marriages from the sidelines and i will wonder about the good and the bad parts they will have. Some women get stuck with spinsterhood because they played too hard, rode too hard or many or just got carried away with career, but some of us were never sold on the marriage and kids thing….i think im doing a service to the poor would have been sucker by not settling down with him. let him get a shot at real happiness with someone else while i live a simple but single life.

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  198. on March 26, 2009 at 12:08 am Rum

    Femaloo

    I liked the part about “burying it deep…” but what you said after that caused me to lose interest.

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  199. on March 26, 2009 at 12:13 am femaloo

    no i agree – for those who want amrriage and kids there is a window. but too bad men , for their own benefit, like to group ALL women inthe im a slut who fucks alphas any chance i get and then overestimate my sexual capital on my decline and end up bitter and alone desparately wishing for a chance with anyone….that no more represents the average women then this blog owner and male blog posters represent the average male.

    but iget the focus of the blog and the commentators – but becareful you dont super impose your narrow view and make it bible.

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  200. on March 26, 2009 at 12:16 am David Alexander

    But in the urban professional environment where women earn as much if not more than men, have generally higher status, no, women don’t want or need beta type providers.

    That’s an improvement since women no longer go to beta males to support themselves. They support themselves with their own income, and I support myself and enjoy my life with my own income.

    If I was a beta male with a decent income, I wouldn’t want women coming to me in order to support themselves and offer me false hope and fake love. It makes far more sense for women to support themselves and have great sex with alpha males then have a miserable marriage and awful sex with me.

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  201. on March 26, 2009 at 12:18 am femaloo

    speaking frankly RUM – male insecurity/female insecurity bit was the only universal gem i wrote , everything else is dull in comparison because its a fragmented opinion based on my expeience and only relevant to a few – but universal truth well that just shines doesnt it.

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  202. on March 26, 2009 at 12:35 am Rum

    Femaloo

    The only real cure for the painful distance between men & women is for us all to get in touch with something beyond our selves.

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  203. on March 26, 2009 at 12:44 am Tood

    Why does anyone even BEGIN to believe that older women can get guys 5+ years younger than them.

    Female fertility drops off at 35. Male fertility does not drop off until 45-50. Thus, men have 10-15 years more than a woman. Period.

    And this is not just a modern, Western construct. Check out Indian mythology, the Arabian Nights, Chinese dynasties, Charlemagne, etc. Men 10, 20, or even 30 years older than their women was the norm.

    And when is the last time Demi came in a movie at top billing? I dare say Ashton is bigger than her now, and pretty soon, Ashton will get a woman several years YOUNGER than him. It would be more natural for Ashton to date someone Rumer’s age, rather than Demi’s age.

    And I bet Bruce Willis has no shortage of women 25-30.

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  204. on March 26, 2009 at 12:48 am Tood

    Beta nerds will invent sexbots and 3-D, holographic tactile porn video games, before they invent anti-aging therapies for cougars.

    And men can use those anti-aging therapies too. Pro atheletes will extend their careers, inventors will have more time to invent more, etc. Men can make better use of anti-aging therapies than women can, despite the fact that women need them more.

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  205. on March 26, 2009 at 12:54 am jaakkeli

    whiskey: It’s not beta provider time that makes older guys more attractive, it’s the lack of testosterone dominance in younger guys.

    If that were it, you wouldn’t see women dating older so eagerly. Testosterone starts declining pretty fast. A woman can usually get a man somewhat younger interested in herself, but most 30-year-olds still prefer 35-year-old men over 25-year-olds, even with less testosterone.

    In fact, women will generally prefer men with the highest mental age that matches their demands for lack of physical detoriation and expected years before he drops dead. That wouldn’t be so if they preferred a brain charged with the highest testosterone levels, as testosterone is the highest when young.

    Evan Rachel Wood. Famously hooked up with both Marilyn Manson and Mickey Rourke. Both freaks, but high testosterone dominant freaks.

    Marilyn Manson doesn’t seem high testosterone or dominant at all to me.

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  206. on March 26, 2009 at 12:58 am Rum

    Money changes everything.

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  207. on March 26, 2009 at 1:23 am whiskey

    Jaakeli — we are probably seeing the same dynamic play out. A guy in his thirties can and often is more dominant socially, particularly towards women (no longer are they mystery or intimidating). They just are. Taken as they’re found.

    A guy like Manson, well in his own subculture he’s a big deal. Ugly rock star with lots of social power, particularly girls who want to have sex with him. It’s that phenomena that creates the attraction. Social proof. Just like Rourke was a washed up nothing with lots of Chihauhas who at one point was living in his truck, before his comeback.

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  208. on March 26, 2009 at 1:36 am Kthulah

    Tood, be that as it may, there’s still the question of interchangeability.

    I’m afraid that most of you are missing the point because you’re still stuck in the feminist mentality of the female partner being the *everything* of her male partner.

    If what you’re seeking is a wife to function as a breeder and housekeeper, the world is full of nubile, young women who may not piss on you to save your life if you were on fire, but would have and raise your kids to be upstanding citizens…and cook for you and clean your house, in exchange for financial stability and being called someone’s wife. She may even be your equal in many ways…but love…Well, she’ll love you like family.

    Those of you who are function based should be happy with that.

    If, on the other hand, you want someone who loves you with passion, regardless of whether you are of any practical use to her, and whether or not it will make her look good/loyal/whatever to others, then your mate is no more interchangeable than your best friend. You didn’t choose your best friend for practical usefulness unless you are a sociopath. If you don’t want to be used as a sperm donor and ATM on an incubator, you should probably consider practical usefulness less important.

    The former, function based mateship, is a legitimate and historically wise way of going about things, so long as your partner is okay with you seeking passion elsewhere. The Japanese were, and some still are, quite skilled in managing these sorts of arrangement while maintaining the dignity of all parties involved. So there is a template for it if your own culture doesn’t provide one.

    Those who wish to be loved in a mad, totally unreasonable way though, tend to do things like select people outside the standard age ranges, from different cultures, and otherwise “off the grid”.

    So I wouldn’t blame anyone who wants it, for hoping they’ll have a shot at a deep love for other than practical purposes, rather than a merely functional arrangement. It’s just that at some point, one has to accept the reality that deep love requires deep people…and the vast majority are not that deep.

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  209. on March 26, 2009 at 3:18 am awayinargentina

    Willard Libby —

    You’re saying that many guys are romantically successful without fitting the cultural stereotype of high testosterone. That’s different from saying these guys actually have low testosterone.

    I’ve been taking steroids for the past year to boost my T levels, so let me say from personal experience that high testosterone will make you MUCH MORE attractive to women. For me the difference has been between being near-virginal and fucking 8s and 9s (and I’m quite skinny/flabby, even post-roids, so you would say I prove women are attracted to low-T guys… ha).

    The alpha traits that get women creaming their knickers —
    extraversion
    social dominance
    self confidence
    wittiness (depends largely on short-term memory)
    assured body language
    etc.
    are all engendered by T. The better your hormonal profile, the more of these attractive qualities you will have.

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  210. on March 26, 2009 at 4:20 am Chuck

    whiskey:

    i saw the sean penn/natalie portman story on the internet. my girlfriend pulled it up on perez hilton’s blog…typical gay hollywood b.s., he calls out penn for being a womanizer and chastizes portman for not realizing his womanizing ways…..news flash here, she knows he’s a womanizer, that’s why she wants his cock

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  211. on March 26, 2009 at 4:56 am Markku

    Whiskey:

    It’s not beta provider time that makes older guys more attractive, it’s the lack of testosterone dominance in younger guys.

    Testosterone schmestosterone … Male testosterone level actually peaks at puberty. It’s the maturity that attracts 18-22 year-olds to guys 5-15 years their senior. An older man is more experienced, emotionally mature, and physically mature looking: less scrawny but with less baby fat in the face and a more rugged looks owing to moderate skin-aging (think Camel boots ads). The very same signs of aging (in moderation) the appearance of which send female sexual market value on a downward trajectory increase male sexual market value.

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  212. on March 26, 2009 at 5:32 am nilk

    What i can feel in the comments are men pathologically phobic of their women getting chubby old and all that. Makes me wonder, where is love, nowhere, its just about Consumption and loving yourself and your ego and nothing else. its so sad and superficial…….

    If you want to marry a fake plastic dream, then go ahead, be happy live your life, this will probably and up in a empty lived life. Be true to yourselves. Choose what you feel like.

    Biktopia, the thing to remember is that men aren’t wired like women, and tend to think more than feel. It’s not that they don’t feel, or don’t get emotional, but it’s different for them.

    Add to that the current level of materialism in Western society, and the sexualisation of damned near everything then it gets harder for a man to consider allowing himself to get emotionally involved.

    And as if that weren’t enough, we also have a legal and social system that encourages and supports women against men in family/parenting situations.

    Last time I went and saw a “family counsellor” a few years back, about the only thing she had to say to me was to run away fast!

    Unfortunately, that wasn’t really the most productive advice I’ve ever had, as I was dealing with my child’s father at the time, and I refuse to just sod off to the other side of the country or overseas (much as I wanted – and would still love – to do).

    Ultimately, men would like a woman they can trust to be friend, lover and partner, but going by the current crop of women, there’s not a lot for them to have faith in.

    It’s going to get worse all round before it gets better, but that’s just something we all have to deal with.

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  213. on March 26, 2009 at 6:25 am nilk

    So there’s some science behind the notion that a woman’s have “sat on a big barrel of dicks” and the strong tendency to not intensely emotionally bond afterwards, but rather to divorce more often.

    Very interesting, Doug. Reminds me of a discussion I had with a mate of mine a couple of weeks back. We got to talking about hormones and the role they play – prostaglandins and oxytocin for example, are produced during female orgasm and cause the uterus to contract.

    They are also produced when breastfeeding and act in a manner that helps strengthen the bonding process with the baby.

    In an ideal world, a woman would have amazing sex with the man she’s made a commitment to and forms a strong emotional bond with him.

    If she is having sex with the one man and does have a strong enough attachment to him, then this should help her get past the letdown that comes with getting to know him as a person rather than an ideal.

    Unfortunately, since we’re not in an ideal world, it’s easier to walk away from a relationship when the sparkles wear off and she sees him as a man who happens to be human and have flaws.

    It takes more than a few weeks or a few months to really get a relationship working properly, and I tend to believe that one should be approached in a manner more like a business agreement – what do both parties bring to the table, how long are they prepared to commit to the relationship, and which lines are not to be crossed.

    Of course, that’s just me and there’s a reason I’m single lol.

    Relationships are bloody hard work, and sometimes it all gets a bit too hard for people who are used to instant gratification.

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  214. on March 26, 2009 at 6:34 am nilk

    My take on the Transformers/Iron Man thing.

    Transformers had Michael Bay directing. This means lots of Stuff Blowing Up. Spectacularly.

    Nobody makes stuff blow up like Michael Bay.

    Shia who?

    Iron Man has Robert Downey Jnr. Not only is he hot (from a crazy cat lady perspective), but he’s a vastly underrated actor with an impressive range who wasted far too much of his life on substance abuse.

    Of course, if I had to decide between Blowing Stuff Up and Robert Downey Jnr, I’d be stuffed.

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  215. on March 26, 2009 at 7:28 am Obsidian

    Well, just saw Whiskey’s earlier comments, and, I gotta stand and testify, and back up his play.

    The Man told the Double Truth, Ruth.

    Personally, one of thee freakiest gals I ever had was this 20 year old chick back in the early part of the decade. I was in my early 30s at the time, and I wasn’t her first “older guy” either. We dated for two years: bangbangbangbangbangbang…

    What a Tart!

    I’ve been hit on by girls of highschool age, several times.

    One guy I knew, old enough to be my dad, had an very nice weekly arrangement: two highschool seniors would come by his house every week and fuck & suck him in tandem, after which he’d break them off some walking around money. Classic Sugah Daddy stuff, and don’t get it twisted, those young chippies wanted the sex as much, if not more, than he did.

    My Mom married my Dad at 19. He was about 36 at the time.

    One of his running buddies, Mr. Fountain, all he dealt with were gals 25 and younger-and back then he had to be at least 60 at the time. Yea, he was a very successful Black businessman, owning a company that made safes and lockboxes for smal businesses, so he had som bling and cash to spread around. But, now I’m just a weebit wiser myself, I’m here to tell any and everyone that if a Man takes care of himself, he can reliably fuck for life.

    Women value experience in a Man. Do not get that twisted.

    Ok, that’s it.

    O

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  216. on March 26, 2009 at 7:48 am notfamous

    Question for the commenters…
    I have read here that (based on some people’s opinion) women should get married early. I’m in my early 20s, and I would have to agree. I think waiting longer exposes you to a lot of physical / emotional baggage.

    But how would someone say, 22 – 24 years old, even go about finding a person to “settle down with”? Of course, someone slightly older (let’s say, up to 30 years old)? Aren’t most men in this age range *not* looking to settle down?

    And in regard to my standards, I am not expecting Mr. Perfect in terms of looks, but someone who is masculine, can provide, and is stable in his life. And I’m an “8” on the hotness scale/ alpha on roissy’s test.

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  217. on March 26, 2009 at 7:54 am PA

    But how would someone say, 22 – 24 years old, even go about finding a person to “settle down with”?

    You might do well looking for guys up to 33-34 years old. Beyond that he might be too settled in his ways to be a good fit for a younger girl (but there are exceptions.)

    And there is nothing wrong with a guy your age if he’s clearly a stand-up guy. They exist. You just need to know how to find them. As a dude, I can’t give you too much tactical advice — romantically successful women might be better for that.

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  218. on March 26, 2009 at 8:04 am spandrell

    I’d like to point out: not every single individual is meant to reproduce. Some people are just too nerdy, hideous or freaky. That modern medicine has made most strange diseases disappear doesn’t mean we are all the same, and all have a right to a loving wife and good looking kids.

    Evolution is gambling, you toss genes around, and some combinations turn right, others just don’t. Historically less than half of men passed their genes on.

    So please stop talking about the master strategy of life, not every single person on this world has to be a patriarch; or a player anyway, but some people are meant to be.

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  219. on March 26, 2009 at 8:10 am ironrailsironweights

    Look especially for guys five or especially ten years older than you. By going older you should be buying more alpha or nearly alpha. Out in the wider LA world probably rather than at your college would be the main place to look. Many men in this age group will be actively looking to settle down. These are where you’ll likely be able to get higher quality in overall attractiveness, because especially those at or pushing 40 are less likely to be successful with hot mid twenties girls — unless they’re real alphas with strong game.

    The woman to whom you gave this advice is 30, so you’re saying that she should be looking for men who are 35 or especially 40. Most single men in that age group will have been married, indeed a good percentage of them will be paying child support. You’re not going to see a whole lot of never-married men who are now looking to settle down. Of course, this isn’t to say that a previously married man would be a bad choice, but only that if the original poster is hoping to find a never-married man, she’s not likely to find many 40-year-olds who fit that bill.

    Peter

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  220. on March 26, 2009 at 8:14 am HR Lincoln

    “notfamous
    Question for the commenters…
    I have read here that (based on some people’s opinion) women should get married early. I’m in my early 20s, and I would have to agree. I think waiting longer exposes you to a lot of physical / emotional baggage.

    But how would someone say, 22 – 24 years old, even go about finding a person to “settle down with”? Of course, someone slightly older (let’s say, up to 30 years old)? Aren’t most men in this age range *not* looking to settle down?

    And in regard to my standards, I am not expecting Mr. Perfect in terms of looks, but someone who is masculine, can provide, and is stable in his life. And I’m an “8″ on the hotness scale/ alpha on roissy’s test.”

    I have sobering news for you. If you are an eightish woman in your early 20’s, your attractiveness as a LTR partner is at its peak. In the relationship world, what you’re currently got is an embarassment of riches. If you think it’s now a challenge to find a man to settle down with, trust me, it will not get easier as the years blow through your rearview mirror.

    Imagine your query sounds to the ears of a 40ish woman who asks the same question.

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  221. on March 26, 2009 at 8:15 am Tarl

    I bet Bruce Willis has no shortage of women 25-30.

    He just limited himself to one of them. He just married a 30-year-old model who he hand-picked for himself.

    Much more baffling to me is Harrison Ford’s marriage to an emaciated 44-year-old. Maybe he figured four kids from a previous marriage was enough, and was willing to go with the cougar.

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  222. on March 26, 2009 at 8:21 am ironrailsironweights

    The anti-aging industry that cougars cling to like life support is the brainchild of betas. Those same dull, socially awkward nerds the cougars ignored when they were kittens are busily inventing the science and technology that may one day grant them a reprieve from the horror of fading beauty.

    And you base this assumption on, what? It is more reasonable to conclude that the people developing anti-aging drugs and cosmetics and treatments are researchers employed by cosmetics and pharmaceutical companies. The days when most inventions and product developments came from amateur tinkerers are long gone. You’re not going to see many introverted Betas spending long hours in Mom’s basement (the place where they play WoW) developing some new potions that’ll keep aging women looking young and vibrant. For that matter, I would also suspect that most of the researchers working on anti-aging products do not see themselves on some grand quest, but instead think of the work as just their latest workday projects.

    Peter

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  223. on March 26, 2009 at 8:46 am Virgin@40

    GIG,

    Thank you so much for that fricking rule, man.

    I am less than twenty stuck in high school and virtually all the girls here are younger than me. This year some strange things happened: I started to see +2 years younger tham me girls as attractive.

    The shadow of paedophilia was always near, so much that it make me cease to get out in Fridays (girls aged 15-23 av age: 16) to go out on Thursdays (girils aged 17-28 av age: 23).

    Thank you man!!! Really.

    P.S. – boy I’m so Beta.

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  224. on March 26, 2009 at 9:05 am Kthulah

    Notfamous, I’d recommend finding a guy who is about your age or only up to 3 years older, who also doesn’t have alot of baggage, and still believes in love.

    If you do go older, take care that they guy doesn’t have his own set of baggage.

    If you had a good dad or other close male role model and father figure, almost everything about men they told you is true.

    No.

    Shh!

    It’s true.

    …and if when a guy touches you in any way, you don’t feel that nice, protected vibe like they would take a bullet for you, but they aren’t above smacking you to wake you up if you passed out, they are *never* going to love you. Move on.

    Don’t bank on any practical arrangement lasting forever, but keep practical concerns in mind. This is the most you can do for that…but the love should be solid. If the love is solid and the guy is honorable, and you are too, there’s a limit to how wrong things can go if they go wrong.

    With those things in mind, it’s not so difficult to find a man in the U.S. or most fairly free countries, who has the capacity. They tend to stand out because other aspects of their lives are very balanced and nature friendly. I even find them in a cultural situation that is not so great for me. They’re just too young for me, but not for you.

    If you’re willing to visit Israel, I can hook you up. 🙂

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  225. on March 26, 2009 at 9:24 am dougjnn

    notfamous —

    And in regard to my standards, I am not expecting Mr. Perfect in terms of looks, but someone who is masculine, can provide, and is stable in his life. And I’m an “8″ on the hotness scale/ alpha on roissy’s test.

    You’re in a strong position for finding a great husband. You also have strong values that will make finding a stable and lasting relationship much easier.

    I’m going to assume you’re really, from a guy’s point of view, somewhere in the 7-8 area. Girls esp. ones your age mostly overestimate. But you might not have. So the range. Everything I first said had this in mind.

    Your target should be a vibrant, exciting but also stable, loyal and loving lesser alpha about ten years older than you are. If you focus here and don’t slut around, you should be able to find a guy around that age who does want to get married now, as opposed to years from now.

    Keep in mind that there are currently social pressures in our culture, mostly feminist ones that have long since permeated our media, for not going older than 5 years out. Ignore them. Ten is likely your best bet, all things in. I.e going the extra five years out if you want to get married around now, as is smart, is likely to be in reality the LEAST sort of compromise you’ll have to make. The largest compromise is what your current group of friends will think, esp. at the beginning with such a guy. After a while you’ll probably end up converting some of them.

    Now from a girl’s point of view a guy who’s only about 5 years older might be ideal, all other things being equal. But they probably won’t be. Sure if you can find a late twenties lesser alpha who’s thrilling and masculine, has game (can tease, keep things interesting, easily leads you rather than being easily put down by you) but is also clearly on his way to success and is loyal, loving and wants to settle down, yeah grab him. But don’t search for him too long. So be simultaneously looking in the range 5-10 years older. If there’s an unmistakably alpha guy even a little more than 10 years older that you personally click with outsie as well as inside the sack, and who well just blows you away, well, that’s the answer too. But that’s rare. 5-10 older is for you the range.

    Oh and once the right raw attraction parameters are met in both directions, THEN all the stuff you’ve always heard about full emotional compatibility, loyalty and stability etc. ARE important for that lifetime relationship. It’s just that that is AFTER the attraction threshold, not before it. Esp. for a girl like you with such great options still available.

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  226. on March 26, 2009 at 9:32 am PA

    …and if when a guy touches you in any way, you don’t feel that nice, protected vibe like they would take a bullet for you, but they aren’t above smacking you to wake you up if you passed out, they are *never* going to love you. Move on.

    I gotta say, Kthula does have a way with words.

    And she’s right too.

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  227. on March 26, 2009 at 9:49 am dougjnn

    notfamous —

    To be clear, the only reason to go a little more than ten years out is if you get a genuine full up alpha that way. Around ten or a little older is likely to be the only way you can. Likely but not certain. But he’s also got to be supple and flexible and FUN.

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  228. on March 26, 2009 at 10:24 am schoolboy

    Roissy, you are the truth.

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  229. on March 26, 2009 at 10:43 am Gina

    Thanks for the two comments. I appreciate your thoughtful reflections. The two men I dated, one 30 and had some “issues” to work on (trust, mainly), and so that was a no-go. And then there was the 38 year old who in fact had already been married once for four years. So you’re both right. A lot of men who are compatible with me age wise (apx. 8- 10 years older) are already married. And a heavy percentage of men who aren’t attached anymore are quite a bit older than me. I’m definitely much more interested in a man’s masculinity and success than his looks…about mine- I live in Santa Monica, not interior LA, which might help me out in the competition with other women aspect (I used to live in Manhattan, so I’m used to being what I am among all women). I would classify myself as cute and alluring, in a pixieish, dark kind of way. Its helped me that I’ve stayed slim, can dress, and am kind and not at all a party girl. Thanks to Roissy’s blog though, for giving me more objective light. I think its good to not sugarcoat things. I just wish I had been more serious about ending dead-end relationships when I was younger. But perhaps we’re all ready when we are ready.

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  230. on March 26, 2009 at 11:06 am Bhetti

    Ricky: 19. I expect male disinterest in marriage will continue until 30 especially for my generation, with a few exceptions.

    Sluts: The younger ones are probably harder to identify; the potential may be there but not the experience.

    DA: Don’t be silly. Plenty of women love their life with their “beta” partners: money, stability and affection at night. They either learned that passion can be psychologically damaging, are religious, romantic, traditional, realistic or have other reasons for sticking to the man. In practice: I’ve seen it, you’ve seen it in real life. Perhaps you need to stop your increasing pessimism at ‘ugly’. It’s just about tolerable if you believe that it’s only ugly chicks who can do it. Let’s also be realistic about the alpha/beta categories: men in practice are going to be a mix of the traits inherently displayed by these which is what makes it so hard to isolate what is and isn’t alpha. Their actions might be different depending on environment; why attraction occurs more easily for women at work.

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  231. on March 26, 2009 at 11:07 am Bhetti

    DA: It may not happen for you, but it’s no reason to say it’s a lie. I’ve seen it happen.

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  232. on March 26, 2009 at 11:19 am dougjnn

    Gina —

    You have a good and realistic attitude, which is important, at this point.

    So to summarize and categorize for simplicity, I make you a genuine good girl 6, at thirty, who’s in school and could use a provider husband. And wants a stable and loyal one.

    You’re going to have to compromise. Period. You have no realistic hope for an alpha at all, except to have him “pump and dump” you, which runs a big risk of messing up bonding with a loving man you can get for permanent. Your best target is a higher beta. You run a risk of having to compromise with a middle beta. (Middle beta means not so masculine, no game and likely to be easily put down by you rather than leading you and playfully teasing you, and only middling success.)

    You’re wise to compromise first and most on looks. While wanting to get a masculine and successful man. Your best bet to get that is go 5-10 years old as I said before. Don’t exclude divorced men — though you’re much better off if they’re childless. California is brutal on divorced men with children, and a successful job may leave such a guy with damn little money to share with you especially if he’s also paying alimony, unless it’s really successful – and then it won’t be net net nearly as much as it otherwise could be.

    In general look for a guy that has a hard time picking up women perhaps because he’s rather shy, or is badly programmed by the general culture and maybe his parents on being nice and never macho, but once you’ve gotten to know each other, he is strong and confident. Then gently guide him towards BEING more macho and leading with you, and not taking shit. Actually, once he starts falling for you, get him to read Roissy’s blog. From the beginning. Assign it to him. Not to learn pickup but to learn relationship game — which will make and especially keep you much happier. The point is to deprogram a lot of the betaizing nice guy defer always to women feminist programing he’s gotten and internalized.

    Come on back and ask further if you want. Otherwise good luck!

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  233. on March 26, 2009 at 11:22 am Marcus Aureliette

    Just as some women and male feminists like to pretend that Game has no effect on modern women, a lot of men with a superficial understanding of women don’t understand that many women really are attracted to men who don’t fit into the category of man that evolutionary psychology and PUA theory claims she should want.

    OMG! Willard, I could hug you for this.

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  234. on March 26, 2009 at 11:34 am dougjnn

    Gina —

    Oh and the best reason for their having gotten divorced from your point of view is that his wife cheated and he couldn’t stand it and divorced her. She may have been a slut. She may have been too hot hot for him (but he’s real successful) and somewhat a slut (this is promising). If this cheating of hers was associate with her alcohol or drug problems or other real instability and you believe him, so much the better.

    Second best is he cheated on her. Means he has some balls. He’s now seen the consequences. His wife may have been kinda frigid. That might have been her. It also might have been his utter failure at relationship game. See sending him to Roissy’s above. Of course also try him out in bed yourself once he otherwise looks great but before you get committed to going down the isle.

    Don’t downplay the importance of good or even great sex. It’s important in really bonding. Given your history you’ll be naturally less demanding there than some, which is good all things considered, but you want to really fall in love. Aside from the thrill of it in itself, which is huge, it’s also important for really bonding and keeping the relationship going for keeps. Sacrifice some success for this. But older guys can be really good here too. You be the judge.

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  235. on March 26, 2009 at 11:39 am dougjnn

    Marcus Aureliette–

    Ah, I know who you are hot girl. Your prior screen name’s escaping me at the moment, but you aren’t. You’re the elite college educated late twenties girl who returned to Idaho to be a prosecuting attorney, who’s now working in state government. Your passion and at the moment side avocation is writing novels. And you’re a VERY good girl.

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  236. on March 26, 2009 at 11:51 am dougjnn

    Willard–

    Just as some women and male feminists like to pretend that Game has no effect on modern women, a lot of men with a superficial understanding of women don’t understand that many women really are attracted to men who don’t fit into the category of man that evolutionary psychology and PUA theory claims she should want.

    Yes and no. I know where you’re coming from though.

    it is CERTAINLY true that there are a lot of women who are hot enough to definitely get an alpha for relationships and not just casual sex (8’s and above with reliability, and 7’s sometimes), who aren’t willing to take a player, especially a not convincing reformed (probably older) player to get one. They want a loyal and deeply loving man who they completely mesh with personality and life objectives wise. With that I completely agree.

    However there are alphas who aren’t players. They could be players, especially if they learned pickup game, but even on the strength of their natural game, but they don’t want to, they prefer relationships. Further, remember that alpha criteria in men start with status, and include money. Game which implies easy pick up ability, even if it’s natural rather than learned, is in there, but it doesn’t have to be mostly why the guy in question is an alpha – i.e. in the top 15% of attractiveness to hot hot women.

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  237. on March 26, 2009 at 11:56 am dougjnn

    The more a woman wants raw sex appeal as her leading alpha quality, the more she’s gonna have to take a player and a big risk of the relationship turning into a fling, or even suffering out and out pump and dump, to get one or many. The more she wants other alpha qualities the more she’ll get a LTR alpha. However the alpha’s belief system does play into how much he’s wanted to turn his ability to pick up lots of women into actually doing so.

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  238. on March 26, 2009 at 2:06 pm Kthulah

    Doug says, “You have no realistic hope for an alpha at all, except to have him “pump and dump” you,”

    Sorry, but I have to call bullshit on this one. Alphas don’t pump and dump good girls anywhere on the looks range. They do that based on a girl’s slut factor regardless of her looks because they’re not going to be convinced a woman would make a good wife just because she’s hot.

    Betas attach emotional value to a woman’s looks. Alphas only view them in terms of aesthetic pleasure (fuckability) and social status enhancement (trophy).

    What a homelier girl has to be careful of is getting attached to an alpha who basically just wants her as an emotional or ego tampon and social condom.

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  239. on March 26, 2009 at 2:12 pm Kthulah

    Oh…and I forgot…breeder. One has to consider that some guys, especially independent thinkers who are only attached to the herd for convenience/comfort, may have given up on a passionate love, and are happy with functional arrangements. Some like the idea of the kind of woman who will stay at home and raise his kids while he is responsible, but does what he does when he can.

    Sometimes they don’t even consciously plan these things, but this is how they work out.

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  240. on March 26, 2009 at 2:52 pm dougjnn

    Kthulah

    Alphas don’t pump and dump good girls anywhere on the looks range.

    Well I never did, but to say that none versus quite a few do is I think naive K. Having a fling with them and then letting them down gently is another matter. I wouldn’t even do that today, but I didn’t used to have the same theory I do not about “ruining” a good girl’s chances of really bonding with a beta. I just didn’t want to be cruel or needless break hearts.

    It’s certainly true that alphas regard sluts including sorta sluts as fair game for pump and dump whereas good girls are less so. And there probably aren’t many these days who would do that to a virgin or virtual virgin, at least once they have gotten a little older. As teens or early twenties themselves though – yeah the real bad boy low wider world status (as opposed to bad boy gang or other group status) type are prone to do that too.

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  241. on March 26, 2009 at 2:55 pm dougjnn

    Kthulah–

    Remember that alpha means the top 15% roughly in sexual attractiveness to women, all in, rather that same top percentage in overall social status or approval – or even always good looks.

    It’s this paradox that guys like Roissy can explain, while just about all other social theories can’t.

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  242. on March 26, 2009 at 3:36 pm dougjnn

    Gina —

    Addendum. You might have a chance as a good girl 30yo 6 if you were very smart and educationally accomplished, especially if you were Jewish, with a Jewish lesser alpha in the high end of the same age range I suggested, or to a lesser extent with other guys having similar smarts and smart achievement status above all else values. But that means an Ivy or similar education, and probably grad school to match. Gina’s are rarely Jewish which is part of why I didn’t think of this ’til now.

    LikeLike


  243. on March 26, 2009 at 8:52 pm joel

    Says:

    Days of Broken Arrows

    Back in the old days, when gay guys had to be in the closet, some of them took to lonely older women to be “beards.”

    =============================================

    One of our secretaries was killed like this. Her younger bi/gay husband gave her HIV. They both died of it. Ain’t funny.

    LikeLike


  244. on March 26, 2009 at 9:50 pm Kthulah

    Doug, it’s impossible to pump and dump someone without pumping them. So an alpha who’s not going to get anywhere (unless he’s willing to resort to rape) will just dump them or get used to not getting what they want from them. It’s okay, because for them, there really are plenty of other fish in the sea.

    There’s good girls, and then there’s good girls…

    Good girls don’t get pumped and dumped by alphas. They get friend zoned or 730 night standed. The friend zone is where I prefer to be in these cases. I’ve been 730 night standed, but only in Israel. With my first husband, I was the “home breeding installation”.

    In places that don’t have such rigid ethnic/social hierarchies, the 730 night stand could turn into more, but it’s still not something I’d bank my future on.

    As a rule of thumb, unless the guy gives you a ring or some other serious indication of commitment at some point, do not have sex with guys of perceived higher status, whether it is because they are handsome, or because of connections. These things tend to end badly.

    So if you’re a homely girl, keep the pretty boys in the friend zone at all costs, if you want to get married/long term serious committed. They will waste your time.

    If you don’t mind spending five years of your life in an unbalanced relationship, then have fun with it. Maybe when he’s pushing 50 he’ll realize what a great woman you are.

    …and this isn’t just coming from me. This is taen from bits of my dad’s “what went wrong” speech when things went south with my first husband.

    “He’s from way too close to Los Angeles…he married you because for some guys a good woman is a function, not a person…like a breeding and housekeeping installation…”

    I can’t personally say whether alpha or beta is better as far as selection. I think it’s a matter of personal preferences, and whatever costs a woman is willing to pay. So in my opinion, it’s best to go for the love/bonding, but bear in mind that most people aren’t that deep.

    Some guys, my inner slut would love to shag, but my inner princess knows they wouldn’t me mine. So this is one of those situations where I’ve learned to listen to the little brat in my head who irrationally demands painfully insane devotion.

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  245. on March 26, 2009 at 10:29 pm Marcus Aureliette

    Ah, I know who you are hot girl. Your prior screen name’s escaping me at the moment, but you aren’t. You’re the elite college educated late twenties girl who returned to Idaho to be a prosecuting attorney, who’s now working in state government. Your passion and at the moment side avocation is writing novels. And you’re a VERY good girl.

    Oh, dear. I hate to disappoint you, Doug, but you’re wrong on every single count save the last one.

    Good girls don’t get pumped and dumped by alphas. They get friend zoned…

    So true!

    LikeLike


  246. on March 26, 2009 at 10:46 pm dougjnn

    Marcus Aureliette

    Oh, dear. I hate to disappoint you, Doug, but you’re wrong on every single count save the last one.

    ANOTHER female classics fan on our blog? So his Julius Caesar, after careful and in dept consideration of a number of other Greek and Roman contenders, your number one fave also?

    LikeLike


  247. on March 26, 2009 at 11:47 pm Chris

    Marcus Aureliette–

    Ah, I know who you are hot girl. Your prior screen name’s escaping me at the moment, but you aren’t. You’re the elite college educated late twenties girl who returned to Idaho to be a prosecuting attorney, who’s now working in state government. Your passion and at the moment side avocation is writing novels. And you’re a VERY good girl.

    Aww, how sweet.

    LikeLike


  248. on March 27, 2009 at 10:14 am Michael Blowhard

    Funny MadTV parody of “Sex and the City”:

    LINK

    LikeLike


  249. on March 27, 2009 at 11:01 am Firepower

    goddamn i MISS MadTV. they nailed that slutparade years ago.

    michael mcdonald as sjp – lmsao

    LikeLike


  250. on March 27, 2009 at 12:23 pm Marcus Aureliette

    ANOTHER female classics fan on our blog? So his Julius Caesar, after careful and in dept consideration of a number of other Greek and Roman contenders, your number one fave also?

    No, I just dig Stoicism. 🙂

    LikeLike


  251. on March 27, 2009 at 3:14 pm Vladimir

    dougjnn:

    http://lupoleboucher.livejournal.com/91498.html?thread=1541226#t1541226

    Sound’s just like Vladamir.

    Well said indeed. Another very good exposition of the same point can be found in Houellebecq’s “Whatever”, when the main character and narrator describes his ex-wife:

    She had certainly been capable of love; she wished to still be capable of it, I’ll say that for her; but it was no longer possible. A scarce, artificial and belated phenomenon, love can only blossom under certain mental conditions, rarely conjoined, and totally opposed to the freedom of morals which characterizes the modern era. Veronique had known too many discotheques, too many lovers; such a way of life impoverishes a human being, inflicting sometimes serious and always irreversible damage. Love as a kind of innocence and as a capacity for illusion, as an aptitude for epitomizing the whole of the other sex in a single loved being, rarely resists a year of sexual immorality, and never two. In reality the successive sexual experiences accumulated during adolescence undermine and rapidly destroy all possibility of projection of an emotional and romantic sort; progressively, and in fact extremely quickly, one becomes as capable of love as an old slag.

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  252. on March 27, 2009 at 5:48 pm Anonymous

    Obsidian,
    While your comments are usually great, you tend to prove that men value younger women more. Your over 30 lady, was sleeping with a 20 year-old. Question, who were her DATING options, not F*C KING options? Obviously, you guys aren’t still together. So the “Lonely Cougar” line seems true, even in your example (at the top of the thread).
    – Original Grace.

    LikeLike


  253. on March 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm dougjnn

    Vladamir —

    That is evocative.

    It’s probably true for the better beta provider not to mention the average beta, who is such mostly on the strength of the providing and related things, trying to evoke intense or real love from a pretty party girl (who follows through on it), even if she’s been such for only a couple of years.

    In my experience it’s a bit extreme, as I’ve said, depending upon how much and under what conditions that “party girl” follows through.

    But that’s my experience, and not that of the guys hypothesized.

    Virginity for women before marriage, but some experience in sex education rutting around for husbands to be with into it whore/sluts (who are into it cause that’s the only way girls are allowed to be promiscuous), probably would make for a lot more solid marriage bonding, particularly for betas. The husband would know what he’s about and be able to teach his newlywed, and blow her away — even if he’s a middling beta — at least a lot more often than now.

    If one adds some lower or lower middle class women cuckolding their lower beta husbands for the delight of young men in training and straying alpha husbands, that’s not so different from many periods of Euro history. Though of course that’s a cartoon.

    LikeLike


  254. on March 29, 2009 at 7:56 pm Anonymous

    Wow. A lot of funny comments here, especially from the guys here who think they’re all that. Twenty-somethings are great for boning, but after that what are you doing with your time? Can you stand to be around the bitch? Twenty-something girls talk about clothes, their cats, co-workers, and whatever other dumbass gossip they can manage. They also expect that, you, as the boyfriend, should joyfully jump up and down to attend whatever stupid activity they conceive, like making pottery or a long walk at sunset. They haven’t learned yet that guys like to do their own bullshit things, and I’d much rather spend my time watching hockey than going out for a long walk.

    The older gals get this. My girl is 29. No supermodel but damn nice to look at. She knows I hate long walks and doesn’t pull the “you must not love me” crap when I say I’d rather watch the game than hang out with her gal pals at some fondue hut. The sex is great, but more importantly, I also enjoy being around her after the sex.

    How many of the moron posters on here are what I call “Garage Dads”? Men who hooked up with a hottie, sprung some kids, and now spends his weekend hanging out in the garage because he can’t stand to be around his family? Just driving down my middle class neighborhood, I’d say half my neighbors are Garage Dads. They don’t even do anything in the garage– they just stand in them all day looking around and drinking their Heinekens. Sure you got ’em young, screwed ’til your eyes popped out, and had some pups. But you still have to raise those pups (or shill half your income to the girl you boned for child support). And raising those pups means living with that woman. There’s also the infidelity route I suppose, but good luck being homeless in two years when she finds out (and they always do).

    So whaddya do? Bone the most virile hot looking chick you see, even though most of those are as hollow as a used beer can, or find an attractive gal who is capable of being your best friend? For you suckers looking for the hot chick, good luck with your life as a Garage Dad. For the rest of us, I prefer some cake to my icing, and I’m damn proud I’ve found it.

    If this article is indicative of the state of hooking up in America, it’s an effing sad state indeed.

    LikeLike


  255. on March 30, 2009 at 12:49 pm Christine

    I wonder why the guys who don’t want to sleep with older women are so bitter! I’m 40 and I get hit on when out with my girlfriends. I’m married with kids so i’m not interested, but I don’t think I’d have a hard time getting laid if I were divorced or widowed. And since I have my friends, my kids, and money, why on earth would I want another man around the house? I think it’s funny that these old guys focus on young women who (they think) are “ripe” for marriage and kids….as a younger woman the only girls I knew who would have looked at a daddy’s age guy had some serious issues and the same age guys didn’t want to put up with that. SO if a bag of issues who wants to settle down is your thing, go for it! But why get all exercised over 40+ women who just want to go out with their girlfriends, get tipsy, and maybe get laid, too? If all middle aged men refused to look at their own age group- well- they’d be consuming a lot of porn, I guess.

    And another thing- when the May December romance is 20 years old, do you all think the 40 year old woman is really going to be wanting to be with her 65 year old husband? Gross. Then SHE’s going to be the one out there acting crazy 😉

    LikeLike


  256. on March 30, 2009 at 1:18 pm lurker

    And Christine again shows us all how delusional cougars are.

    LikeLike


  257. on March 30, 2009 at 1:33 pm Christine

    Mr Lurker- if I’m not out to get laid am I still a cougar? Because I’m a 40 year old female? Lol. Should I stay in the house and iron my husband’s underwear because nobody even wants to be subjected to the visage of an old hag? Men.

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  258. on March 30, 2009 at 1:52 pm Gunslingergregi

    “Christine
    And since I have my friends, my kids, and money, why on earth would I want another man around the house?”

    So the husband’s underwear ironing is a joke right you didn’t mention him in the above. You really are going to the club to pick up?

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  259. on March 30, 2009 at 1:56 pm Gunslingergregi

    Well lets just say if your a woman around forty divorced and bringing guys back to your house from the club. Where your kids are living also. Probably going to be a little wierd for them to keep having new daddies.

    LikeLike


  260. on March 30, 2009 at 2:28 pm Christine

    What??? All I said was I think I could get laid pretty easily even though I’m 40, and, IF I were divorced, I would ONLY want occasional sex from a man, not another marriage! To which Mr Lurker, who has NO idea what I look like, replied that I was delusional.

    I still am very surprised that so many men here take issue with more women on the prowl for sex. I’d have thought that was a good thing. I suppose my definition of “cougar” is just a little different. I don’t think cougars are out to snare much younger men into marriage and kids; rather, they want sex and they would prefer it with a hot young body. Who needs paunch and viagra for a one- nighter? Fortunately, most men are not as picky as women so until I stumbled across the vitriol here, I was under the misapprehension that “cougars” were a win- win phenomenon.

    But, what do I know? I’ve been married since I was at my ripest, most marketable age (eye roll)- and yes! He’s 2 years older.

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  261. on April 9, 2009 at 12:09 pm MindMetrics

    Here’s the deal – the Ashton/Demi dynamic works because they have a foundation in compatibility. There happen to be circumstances that support attraction beyond the platonic for them. The combination enables a long-term relationship to blossom.

    It’s important to recognize that compatibility is the key. We need to strip away society’s taboos and things like race and religion – getting down to whether two souls could be happy together. If your pool of potential mates is filled with those who meet the base requirement of compatibility, you have a much higher chance for success. When attraction sparks on top of that foundation – you’ve got chemistry!

    Good Luck to each of you!

    BTW, great blog post – I read a lot of them and would put this in the top 1% for this topic!

    LikeLike


  262. on August 1, 2009 at 6:33 am hotbaby28

    I think there is a tremendous amount of jealousy
    over Cougars as well as all women in general since
    women can come out & be as open as they like about
    sex & who they want it with.As murray proves on his
    show,DNA tests in real life almost always prove that
    the husband,lover or boyfriend IS NOT THE FATHER!
    women cheat as much or men than men do but women
    use to hide it better.Now that they are getting caught,
    men wanna run home to momma or any girl that will
    claim them but grow up boys,women of all ages,cougars
    & puma’s as well as the kittens Love Sex & Yes,most of
    us do prefer hotter,sexier more energized men who can
    keep up & go out & have some dinner & dancing to burn
    the calories & more sex after that. We have multiple
    orgasms & we don’t care if anyone calls us Bitches or
    stutt! Todays woman has choices and many of the
    males hoes hate it! Too bad losers! It’s over!

    LikeLike


  263. on August 1, 2009 at 6:37 am hotbaby28

    Face it guys,even with Viagra you cannot keep up
    with the female demand,& ya’ COUGARS are HOTT
    and too hot for losers who are fat with no money!
    Or too skinny,hee,heee,heee
    Women of all ages can celebrate our great freedoms
    & enjoy being ravished by the Hot studd Daddy’s in
    the 20’s & 30’s!!! No older men for me!

    LikeLike


  264. on August 17, 2009 at 11:32 am Reality Check

    Bet all those sad men who took the time to reply and tried to tear apart the organizer on not being in tune with reality ARE ALL SINGLE!!!! Get a freaking life and suck it up boys – Women are finally doing what men have been doing for YEARS – only thing WE DO IT BETTER. I just signed up for an http://www.8minutedating.com event- it sounds like lots of fun! Have a GREAT DAY!!!

    LikeLike


  265. on July 1, 2010 at 11:20 pm Grey Divorce Part II: Census Data and the Shifting Sexual marketplace | Dalrock's Blog

    […] has written extensively about how differences in how aging impacts attraction in men versus women changes the balance of the sexual marketplace starting roughly when women are in their 30s. The data seems to back this up, and additionally […]

    LikeLike


  266. on September 5, 2010 at 7:13 am danielsoeganda

    Please visit to:
    MyHealth and Beauty Centre
    Thanks

    LikeLike


  267. on September 8, 2010 at 1:04 pm Sandragirl

    Im 48 and I have no wrinkles and my skin is soft as butter. I have been married about forever. Im white but have dark eyes. Makes me sick how men are trying to use women. I was abused at 15 by a 47 man for sex then dumped. I simply wanted his money. It wasnt worth it . Old men who prey on teens I hope you burn in hell. at 23 I married a man 24. we have been together ever since. If i want to dress my 36-24-36 body sexy for him and other mens eyes i will.

    LikeLike


  268. on September 8, 2010 at 2:15 pm the dude

    48yr old “Sandragirl”: “I simply wanted his money.”

    nice one.

    LikeLike


  269. on September 18, 2010 at 4:33 pm Rarfy

    “Here’s a juicy irony: The anti-aging industry that cougars cling to like life support is the brainchild of betas.”

    What’s even more ironicaler is that once those betas made $millions on their overpriced anti-wrinkle creams they immediately went out and found themselves some young poon.

    LikeLike



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