I met her at my usual first date lounge, ten minutes late right on schedule. As I sat at the bar (thin crowd, plenty of elbow room), she pranced up to my side from across the room, waving back at someone. I looked over my shoulder and saw six or seven people, half girls and half guys, sitting on sofas and waving at her in return.
“Are those your chaperones?”
“No, they’re friends of mine.”
“I see. So you brought them here for protection? Probably a good idea. I usually show up to dates with a chainsaw.”
She was starting to catch on. “I swear it’s just a coincidence. I didn’t tell them I would be here.”
I glanced back at her social circle. They were watching us. Fucking great. I’d have to hustle her to a new venue ASAP, no way was she going to loosen up with her friends judging her every move. But first, drinks.
Fifteen minutes into our conversation (going well) the bartender places a couple of shot glasses in front of us.
“Courtesy of the gentleman over there in the white shirt.”
We both look in the direction of the sofa and one of the guys is smiling at us. My date smiles back.
“How sweet. My friend bought us drinks.”
I lifted my shot glass and nodded toward him in recognition. He nodded in recognition of my nod. I returned to my date and resumed our conversation, paying close attention to her body language to see if she attempted any over the shoulder lookbacks at drink-buying dude. She didn’t. Another twenty minutes passed and I was getting itchy to bounce. As I prepared to pull the trigger, her friends walked by us and stopped to say goodbye to her. Many hugs and introductions were exchanged. I watched our benefactor closely, determined to figure out his designs on my date and his role in the group dynamic. Preliminary analysis: Ingratiating beta who wanted to fuck my date.
***
You are a student of human social dynamics. Your experience with and knowledge of these sorts of situations grows with every passing day. When your date tells you her friends are at your venue of choice by sheer coincidence, you assume:
a. she’s lying, and act accordingly; that is, move her to a new spot quickly or end the date prematurely.
b. she’s telling the truth but it’s virtually guaranteed that one of the men in the group has a crush on her and will come over and say something stupid to ruin the mood of your date.
c. she’s telling the truth and they are just friends who will not sabotage your date, so you are OK to stay.
d. she’s telling the truth but you believe it is unwise to linger in that venue as long as they are within line of sight of your date.
When one of the betas buys you and your date a round of shots, you assume:
a. he’s a cool guy buying his friend and her date a drink, and he does this all the time with no ulterior motive, so you toss him a friendly nod.
b. he’s a scheming punk buying his cute friend and her date a drink because he secretly wants to bang her and thinks this is the best way to undermine the vibe between her and you.
c. he’s a superb example of Beta Maximus in the field who thinks by buying his puppy crush and her date drinks she will instantly fall in love with him and forget all about you.
d. he’s just retarded.
Given the assumptions above, decide which is most likely to be true. Then, evaluate which responses you have available to you and the best way to handle this situation.
Unrelated to the post, but an article by a whore who dated 100 men in 6 months:
http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articleoprahmatch.aspx?cp-documentid=18651861>1=32023
After getting repeatedly pump and dumped in her 20s, went on 100 dates at age 34. Not surprising, writes for O, The Oprah Magazine.
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Question 1: D
Question 2: B and D
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Answer: It doesn’t matter. Having her friends there raises her anti-slut shields. Why they are there and who they are are immaterial.
I would say B and D for 1, B,C, and D for 2.
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I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt on the first question. D seems to be the right answer, though B cannot be ruled out. Either way, you’ve got to go somewhere else, so forget C. A is unlikely to be the case because if she wanted friends along for protection, or moral support, or whatever, she’d wouldn’t have that large a number of them and they’d pretend not to know one another.
As for the second question, my initial choice was C, possibly B or D (these two are really the same thing), however I’ll be uncharacteristically non-cynical and say that A is a (remote) possibility.
Peter
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Was it a blind date or has she seen you before?
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Q1: d.
Q2: b.
Given these assumptions, the default plan is to do a venue change to reduce outcome variance. With only your date to deal with, you can focus and stick to the script.
But the her friends are really there by coincidence, this is an opportunity to speed up the attraction by winning over her friends and thus recruit them to your worthy cause. Higher payoff at a greater risk.
So if clicking with the group looks easier than doing a believable venue change, then stay. If not, try to leave with your date to reduce risk.
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Her friends were there in case you didn’t show up or you freak out about something that might be wrong or incompatible about her. I often do that on first or blind dates if I suspect the guy is a dog.
I don’t lie about it though. I find it comes in handy in situations where a guy’s wishful thinking might be a problem. It’s standard policy for me in Israel to triangulate dates. If all of my normal hanging out friends are busy, then I meet him at someplace one of my friends owns or manages.
A concerned social circle is an excellent cad filter.
If she was doing what I do, the guy who bought you the drink is her Gay friend, or someone who’s like a brother to her, who will kick your butt somehow or another if you mess up. It’s his way of saying, “I’m in charge of this bitch,” albeit platonically.
If your intentions are good, then you have nothing to worry about. You got his “not a psycho” stamp of approval. 🙂
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1) Especially given the venue, she is lying. I wouldn’t hold it against her though, especially if this was a meet off an internet dating site.
2)
a – 50%
b – 10%
c/d – 30% (I fail to see the distinction)
But you are asking what I “assume” which I interpret to mean “act as if” in which case the answer is (a)
Zdeno
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Q1: d
Q2: a
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Not a blind date and not off the internet. Also, drink buying guy was not her brother and it didn’t look as if any of the other girls was his girlfriend.
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I’ll assume it was not a blind date, since you’re not describing your reaction to her looks.
Question 1: A — she’s lying, but if she seems comfortable with the date so far and keeps ignoring them, then no need to rush out.
Question 2: C — unless he’s there with a girlfriend or he’s her brother, in which case A, unless he doesn’t like you
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Of course she is lying. This is easy: A, B.
This isn’t the sort of lie that is in and of itself an indicator of a status or attention whore, but it is a negative as an indicator of insecurity beyond normal girl level. I would be wary, but it depends on her interactions (bonus points on suggesting you all leave after her comfort is established).
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1. A
Women who go out frequently usually know when a group of friends will be at a certain bar. She’s almost certainly lying. Statistically, what is the chance that she’d be at that lounge AND that her friends would be there AND that despite their close social relationship she would be totally unaware of this? And who’d take a girl’s word over mathematical probability?
2. D
Transparent passive-aggressive punk move. Totally typical in Seattle, BTW.
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Also, I’m guessing this is Russia House.
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I meant:
1. A
2. B
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D, then C. Depending on the type of girl though, if she’s on the more loose end of things I’d say A then B.
Option: Jet, preferably with her. You can’t bring the date to the next level with her friends evaluating your every move.
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No, it isn’t a cad filter; it is intimidation.
How would a woman like it if a guy brought her somewhere and had a bunch of people she didn’t know sit down a couple of tables away and stare at her?
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Whether or not she’s lying or telling the truth is fairly immaterial at this point. It is best filed away, and you can judge her based on other behaviors as things progress. Liars usually reveal themselves quickly, and at this point (first/second date) it’s about fucking her, not about if she’s a keeper. As others have mentioned, the top priority is to get the hell out of there and on to somewhere else.
In regards to the guy, B through D. No cool guy ruins a vibe like that. Beyond that, it’s not relevant– he’s a beta (or a douche) and she’s on the date with you. Enjoy the free drink , it’s the first drink of the night and any awkwardness will quickly be forgotten as you progress the evening– away from her friends.
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When your date tells you her friends are at your venue of choice by sheer coincidence, you assume:
a. she’s lying, and act accordingly; that is, move her to a new spot quickly or end the date prematurely.
A is my answer.
If it was one of her girlfriends and one or two guys maybe she didn’t know they were there ahead of time. Maybe.
If it’s a group of 6 or 7. She’s probably good friends with a few of them. In that case she had to know they were going to be there.
Sure, there’s a chance that the girl was being honest, but that’s a slim chance.
Like you said, try to get to a new spot or end the date if it’s a waste of time.
When one of the betas buys you and your date a round of shots, you assume:
d. he’s just retarded.
The answer is D.
Now, it could be a combination of answers A-C, but this guy is retarded.
People violate this concept all the time, but respecting the game is still important.
I look at this as a passive-aggressive bitch move. Like, “Hey, you’re on a date, but I’m still here (With our great group of friends!). Maybe I’ve boned her before. Maybe I just beat off to her every night. You never know. I’m sure as hell not minding my own business and I talk too fast. That new Seth Rogen movie is so funny though, right?”
There’s actually a better chance that he bought you two a soco and lime than this move (and guy) not being retarded.
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“You are a student of human social dynamics. Your experience with and knowledge of these sorts of situations grows with every passing day. ”
I love it.
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A and C. New venue is mandatory. Even if the beta stops interfering, her female friends will start cockblocking.
Never had another guy buy both of us drinks. There have been times when some mutt bought my date drinks, which of course I immediately confiscated from her and drank with a cheerful smile and wave to the buyer.
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Q1: A
Any woman that DIDN’T know her friends were gonna be at your location would most likely be mortified and embarrassed. Being able to shrug it off as if were nothing is a clear indication of her lies.
Q2: C
No guy would buy his female friend and her date a drink with an ulterior motive. An alpha would know better than to waste his money on this bitch and the guy that is about to shove his cock in her sloppy hole.
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*without an ulterior motive
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1. D – Lying about telling her friends to watch out for her is such a brutal character flaw that it’s not worth worrying about right away. If she’s that type of chick, she’ll say other things to make it clear that she’s not worth your time – it doesn’t benefit you to assume the worst two minutes into the date. The type of place I’d envision as a “first date lounge” (I’d picture Tryst) is also a good place for friends to meet up early in the evening.
Between the other three, it’s definitely not good to have a date in front of her friends, so C is out. I wouldn’t worry about B though – you want to leave the place, but if you’ve actually built up some level of attraction with the girl, some random friend isn’t going to sidetrack that. Hurrying out will make you look insecure – staying for a drink before checking out is the right combination.
2. B – If you like the girl, B is the biggest threat, so you should assume he knows her better than you do and wants to sabotage you. The nuance is that treating him like a threat lowers your value and raises his, as does insulting him, so it’s best to act as though you believe A is the case – pretend he’s a good guy doing something nice, even though that’s unlikely. (C and D don’t make sense as choices, as some beta’s motivations and thought processes should make no difference to you whatsoever.)
The friends leaving puts everything in the clear. The girl didn’t look back at the guy who bought the shots and doesn’t seem particularly upset that the friends are leaving – you’re in. The key is ignoring all the distractions, bringing her into your world, and bouncing after 20-30 minutes if the friends are still around.
Potential beta instincts in this situation include: (1) trying to drag the girl to another place immediately, (2) dwelling too long on the friends’ presence, (3) asking about, insulting, complimenting, or in some other way acknowledging the drink-buyer as a person of note, (4) suggesting joining the friends, either initially or when they head out.
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First question:
Your date “mentioned” to the beta where she was going, perhaps not even bothering to include that she was meeting a guy. The beta used all his campaigning power within the ambiguous mixed group to steer them there, with “but our friend xxx is already going!” as the trump card to the discussion. Your date still believes to herself that she is telling the truth to you and that their presence is a coincidence, so she preserves her innocence and also maximizes the attention being paid to her. Obviously, this speaks to a lack of quality.
Second question:
As I was reading this story, I admit holding out hope that the drinks came from a fellow alpha who recognized game and wanted to help you out and show a little proverbial pat on the ass. This notion was patently ridiculous. With nothing more in the description than Roissy’s first impression, I must use that as my guide to answer that he is indeed actually an ingratiating beta, the very one who directed the group to the bar. The closest answer is C, but he is not yet expecting her emotions to come around. Rather, he is attempting to build rapport with the girl to use during the “rebound window” (when she stops seeing you), preparing to remind her how he only wants what is best for her, having facilitated her date as his proof. He is willing to wait for the sloppy seconds. He is a pathetic blip on the threat spectrum radar, yet is was worth it for your date’s ego to subconciously invite him. She is aware of his feelings and they make her feel secure. More accurately, they assuage her own insecurity ever so slightly.
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A and D.
Q1. This is too much of a coincidence, unless one is in a minor second-tier city. Odds are, she told one of her girlfriends, and then some schmuckish group-think took over and led a crowd of goofs to spy on her.
You can’t leave immediately. To even propose it displays too much insecurity, makes you look anal, unrelaxed, etc. etc. So the stay was well played.
Q2. Odds are neither he nor any of the other males in the group chose this location; it’s a girl-run social event. It occurs to me that this turn of events may have put this guy in a bit of a bind: he wants her, one of her friends invited her and his buds to this bar, they spring this scenario on him, he probably wants to get out of there but feels trapped. It’s almost more of an interesting question: what’s he supposed to do, assuming away the threshold question of whether he should have showed up to this event at all.
If the date girl approved of this whole set-up, it’s a shit-test of both you AND the drink-buying or other male ‘friends’. The coolest thing for him to do is probably to just put in the mandatory 30 minutes or one drink, and then split. I think the buying the drink is his misguided way of trying to be a big man. It’s retarded. Of course, if he asked, all the other ‘girls’ probably told him it was a great idea; they secretly wanted to see a showdown. The drink buying at least got him up off the couch and away from the shrews who invited him into this disaster. In his deluded mind the nod might be sort of like the salute two swordsmen give to each other before a duel. Again, retarded, but at least it has the virtue of, in his stressed condition, cave-man game. He’s retarded in two senses of the word: 1. Retarded in this situation = ingratiating beta. He has been retarded from growing-out of ingratiating-ness by the social situation. 2. He is retarded in the sense of being stupid by attempting this guaranteed to fail/worsen his prospects with this girl by buying his rival a drink. Once he saw you pass your shit-test by not panicking and trying to immediately bounce her to a new location, he should have just found a way out of there and not said goodbye to the girl.
Now, with regard to you, as they’re leaving, the vibe will change considerably for her. There may be a chance she was making sure her time went well with you just to make sure she got under that guy’s skin, or just to show off to her friends. I believe an immediate bounce is in order.
I think I’d try to bounce her to either a cheap bar or a hard-drinking bar, or a combination thereof, and, more importantly, put my hand on her ass. Cheap because it would reduce the odds that her ‘crew’ will show –they’re probably off to get sushi somewhere. Cave-man because she’s been prancing around playing men off each other too long. Just amp it up. She’s a pain anyway. Also, both reduce the odds that she texts her crowd with the location. Get her in the slumming it with an animal vibe. Also, if her crew does show up, they will look very out of place among the uninhibited alcoholics and you and her drapped around each other.
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Question 1: D
Question 2: E, he’s a fucking retard, and never buy drinks for a guy who you’ve never watched sports with, played video games with, got in a fight with (either for or against), hung out with for longer than six hours in a shot, or have already banged the girl he’s with.
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Thought experiment: is it worth opening the group? (NOT joining them, of course)
With the wild card of sabotage immediately in play, I would have considered opening the set with your girl, but only under the condition of having an out. Example: ordering you and your girl a drink from the bartender, then getting up to meet the group empty-handed. After a few minutes, you must be able to disengage with a firm hand. This still risks being pulled into the group (and destroying the vibe of your date altogether), but it may tilt the odds toward winning over a potential baller-blocker.
I am not sure if this is efficient strategy: seems that you would raise the girl’s comfort level with you significantly but introduce the risk of getting shut out – in other words, polarizing your chances. Extra variables to help the decision to open her group include the hour of evening you are meeting, the day of the week, and her attractiveness (to determine if it is worth investing an extra ‘date’ if you do not swoop that night).
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My guess: not her primary social circle. She’s not quite telling the truth, but the part she’s fibbing about is her relative closeness to these people, not whether she expected to see them there.
Some women use the word “friends” in the loosest possible sense.
But the guy’s drink-buying move reminds one of nothing so much as a dog peeing on a stump. “TODD WUZ HERE”
D, and B.
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Great post!
I’ve spent years harboring feelings that I was a loser because this happened to me. When you ask a girl out and she brings a guy, it’s never good.
Here’s how I handled it: I called a girl I knew and made it a foursome. Then I never dealt with the girl that brough the guy again. My drive for anger and revenge is greater than my sex drive.
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A, D.
She’s into retarded beta-baiting.
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It’s a small world. I really doubt she employed a whole *team* of friends to show up with her.
Someone said it earlier; perhaps she mentioned where she was going and they decided that was the place to be, but I doubt she asked them all to show up explicitly.
If she were that into hanging out with them, or if she knew them all that well, she would have tried to combine your date with their presence. She would have said “my friends are here, they’re cool, we should see what they’re doing.” She didn’t do that, which is a good sign for Roissy.
That guy *has* to be a beta that likes your date. Plus he’s probably retarded. I do appreciate his attempt to undermine your date though. He’s a pesky beta who won’t go away easily, and i’ll at least say he’s on a higher level than the beta who would sit idly by while the object of his desire gets pawed at the bar by another guy.
This is what I would have done. I would have ran straight into the fire as a diversion for finding a new bar. After the shot buying, I would have said, “hey, what a nice guy, you should take me to meet your friends and then go with me to this other place i was going to take you.”
Unless she’s retarded as well, she knows what the guy is up to. He’s trying to one-up you by *making* you take a shot he bought. He’s trying to push you beneath him. You have to do the same. By *going over to them* first, you show that you aren’t afraid of confrontation and you’re enough of a man to acknowledge a favor without getting your masculinity damaged over it. You introduce yourself to the guy and others, move her to another place (before they leave) and never mention the guy.
While the guy probably isn’t competition, he’s almost like an impromptu shit-test. He’s like a land mine, really.
P.S.: One more thought. Say to the guy, with fake smile: “Man I’m glad you were the one who bought the shot, I was afraid some creeper was trying to slip us a roofie.”
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I cant believe that such a huge beta exist that he actually buys a drink in order to make the girl like him more, did ANYONE of you guys do this???? I dont think so.
Maybe its her favorite bar and her gang is meeting there all the time. It happens.
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The chump who bought the shot was most likely:
“he’s a superb example of Beta Maximus in the field who thinks by buying his puppy crush and her date drinks she will instantly fall in love with him and forget all about you.”
Otherwise he would be rolling by himself trying to swoop girls instead of hanging in the safety of the herd.
Gazelles run in herds.
Leopards hunt alone.
– MPM
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Oh and yes, i live in a city with 2 million people, but i have hard time to find a place where i dont know someobody, once i was on a date and he was late and i saw friends of mine so i sat down there and waited for him, he thought i brought them there of course, whatewer.
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She might not be lying – if she was really close to these people then she probably is, but it’s possible this isn’t her normal group of friends so it really is coincidental.
And for the guy…i’d say D more than likely. It’s either a bad joke and some way to genuinely wish her good luck (which is stupid and he should realize the best way to make things go well is to leave you alone), or he’s her ‘big brother’ type friend who probably wants to fuck her and is reminding her of his presence – i’m sure in his mind he’s reminding her that he’s there to protect her or make her feel more secure, but really he’s reminding her that he’s watching/judging. If he’s really a loser there’s a good shot it might actually help your cause though…like you’ve said before, girls hate betas. Could really be her chance to rub it in his face.
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I would say
1. B
Fact of the matter is you’ll never know whether she’s lying to you or not; and regardless of whether she did- you still need to deal with the situation- so regardless of whether or not she invited the friends or whether the beta instigated them into just “stopping by” for a cock-block they’re still there.
So what do you do?
Well you could try and bail- either with her or to set it up another time.
I wouldn’t go for this- it makes you appear threatened by the friends by trying to remove her from them if you don’t pull it right. You’re already isolated from them by half the room- and you’re talking comfortably- better to just build up the comfort and rapport with her now and then go for the kiss/her place (or whatever) after they leave (which they did). If you don’t think they will, or if you think its guaranteed that one of the betas will try and ruin your interaction then you try to do the venue switch after you’ve built up enough rapport/comfort- you’ve got nothing to lose.
2. B or C
Not enough info. He could be either a schemer or a Beta Maximus. Based on the “vibe” you’ve given him in the article, the fact that you described him as beta, and that he didn’t do anything else to cock block I would lean towards C.
However, he could also be A for all I know- maybe he’s a cool guy that gets so much ass that he’s trying to help you out (though generally Alphas don’t buy things for strangers). That he laid back and didn’t do anything could also support this. Again not enough info.
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biktopia,
Cleveland? http://preview.tinyurl.com/23zv33
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she’s definitely lying, but it probably wasn’t her idea for them to monitor her. very bad form.
the shot buying dude is a classic Milhouse…a vulture wasting his time waiting for her to look at him through teary eyes one night after a dumping or major fight with some other boyfriend, perfectly content with sloppy seconds, because as it stands now he can’t get anything else, and he wants only what he can’t have to prevent reality from slapping him in the face.
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Yes, i dont live in the biggest city, but,, if you have bars you like to visit, and so does your friends you eliminate a lot of options, some bars are more famous among friends, and you will bump into them…
As Roissy told, he met the girl in “his usual first date lounge” it could happen it was her hangout place, if it is in an unknown pizzeria in a suburb, i could clearly see it as odd, but, hmm if he choose a nice bar, then, the odds are not that small..
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“Fifteen minutes into our conversation (going well) ”
Fuck, this is what I do not get. How do you handle a 15 minutes conversation with a girl? Especially in a bar :O , how’s that possible, what do you generically talk about?
I can do 5 minutes of casual conversation. Ten if things are going great. BUT NOT IN A BAR! That’s in the street. At the door of a bar or a disco, maybe, in the inside, no.
More than ten minutes and 1) I really like the girl as a friend; 2) I tend to speak of depressing things; 3) I shut up because there is nothing more to speak about and try to make the girl speak about herself.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO A GIRL IN ORDER FOR HER TO TALK TO YOU IN A BAR FOR 15 MINUTES OR MORE?
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Virgin@40,
“WHAT DO YOU SAY TO A GIRL IN ORDER FOR HER TO TALK TO YOU IN A BAR FOR 15 MINUTES OR MORE?”
Easy.
Ask her what she did that day.
She won’t shut up for a hour.
– MPM
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Question 1: D. The more negative assumptions I make about her, the less likely it is that date will go well. It’s difficult for me to get intimate with someone who I think is lying to me. That being said, I still must make the proper adjustments to the situation, and that include moving out of that bar in reasonable amount of time.
Question 2: C. With the caveat, that he’s not trying to instantly break the vibe between me and her but that he’s hoping to be a long-term NYT success story with this girl. He is not a threat.
I’d walk over to the guy, smile, introduce myself and shake his hand. I’d thank him for the drink, bullshit with him for minute and head back to my date. After another couple minutes, I’d tell my date, “Come on, we’re getting some gelato,” and head out.
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open ended questions are good
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“As Roissy told, he met the girl in “his usual first date lounge” it could happen it was her hangout place,…”
So Roissy says to her, “Let’s meet at X-location…” and girl just says “Great,” not, “oh I love that place” or “me and my friends hang out there all the time” or some such. Don’t you think that’s at least a little bit cagey of her not to say anything?
BTW, on that date you had, did you pick the place or the guy or what?
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Virgin@40
You whip out your super large alpha cock and tell her “Suck it or talk, either way I want your lips moving.”
Best Reaction: You get a blow job
Second Best Reaction: You get a cool story to tell your buddies.
Third best reaction: She starts talking.
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It was mutual we both liked that place and we both knew where it was. it is well suited for a first date or dinner. it’s not a place i go with my closest friends but i sometimes went there for food, and its a place well known among my friends.
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So wait a sec biktopia was on the date.
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Hmmm. Let’s do the odds.
Let’s say the girl and her friends go out fairly often. Maybe twice a week, and they all get together perhaps every other week. Perhaps they go to five different bars regularly. Given the circumstances, the chance that they would be at that bar on that particular day, IF it were a bar that they regularly go to (let’s say they split the time evenly between all five bars), would be just over 1% (not that low, actually, but I am going very, very easy on them). Controlled for that particular time of day it’s probably less than that. This is being generous, and not taking into the account that the chances of one of her friends not calling her up/texting her that night and mentioning the bar, or her not telling one of her friends about the date, are fairly low, especially when it is a group hang-out night.
Compare this with the odds that the girl is just straight-up lying:
“Miss-Leading”
Most People Lie in Everyday Conversation
I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume she’s lying.
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Who first suggested it?
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I once met a girl for a date in a coffeeshop, and it was a similar situation. There I was, thinking she’s cute in a bitchy cheerleader sort of way, while six of her friends were clustered about.
A doofy-looking dark-haired guy was trying to feel me out while trying to sound smart and giggling nervously. I think he had a crush on her, or dated her in the past and was jealous.
A herbish-looking and very insecure-acting guy kept trying to crack jokes. Could he be any more annoying?
One Italian-lookng guy, possibly a legitimate threat, wouldn’t beat it. I relaxed when I figured out that he’s dumb as a doorknob and probably banging a hotter chick anyway.
For some bizarre reason, a cute but neurotic brunette was wiping up the muffin crums from the coffeetable and talking with a hippy-looking blonde.
All the while, the proprietor, a balding guy who dyes his haritr white, kept glaring at me in a way that was making me nervous.
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Q1: a) eo ipso.
Q2: b & d) infinitus est numeros stultorum.
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Number one: What an icky situation. The chick must be a nut…………………or she must know who “Roissy” of internet fame is (you’ve put your picture up one too many times Roissy, some people in DC are going to start recognizing you on site), and invited her friends along to view the (in)famous writer. That they were all there by coincidence, ALL SIX OF THEM, is of course, rubbish. ***
Defuse the drink-buyer with this question to the girl.
“Does that guy’s wife or girlfriend know that he blows their money by buying drinks for other people?”
Unless he has a wife or girlfriend, he is in love with her and even if subconciously, he is reminding her of himself with the drink. If he is her superior at her job and shows up on one of her dates, I guarantee you he is head-over-heels in love with her. If he felt like that about her, he wouldn’t show up on her date AT ALL, no matter how much she asked–unless he was so spineless as to be an anemonie impersonating a human being.
*****Note to Roissy………………six people all hanging together where you meet your date who ALL turn out to be her friend is not a coincidence unless that is their primo watering hole where they all hang out every afternoon together or something as whack as that. They must KNOW who you are. Be careful, you would NOT WANT some chick to have a recorder going in her purse for an entire date to make its way onto the internet. As long as one party knows the conversation is being recorded (in my state anyway), its legal. Some women (and men) really hate you Roiss, and I would not underestimate how far they’d go to act on that.
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Assumptions are for idiots, not that I’m immune to assuming anything.
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Maybe the guy saw good fellas one to many times and thought buying the drinks would be cool for the new couple.
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hmmmm.
i think i was more pushy to go that particular bar, but it was 3 years ago and i don’t remember completely, i recall we had some other options where to go which i didn’t like or he didn’t want to, and then both agreed on this one.
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Trust what a woman does, not what she says. Q1 is A but leave out the temper tantrum. No need to cut the date short, just move to another venue at your pace. You’re out to have a good time, not to marry the chick. Who cares if she’s telling the truth or not.
Calling the guy a scheming beta is giving him more credit than he deserves. What kind of retard buys his crush shots when she is on a date with another man? A retard that’s who. Q2 is D for dipshit.
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Sam,
“open ended questions are good”
Yes, indeed. But one can only asks this questions and at least pretend to listen carefully when one already has some “touch” with the target, no? Thanks though, although I already knew this.
G Manifesto
“Easy.
Ask her what she did that day.
She won’t shut up for a hour.”
Indeed, indeed. Easy as … I can’t think anything so easy. And the truth is that I never even tried it. Thank you man, with this answer you became one of my favourite Alphas: Keeping it simple and effective. Damn! Why did I never said this? Really, thanks.
Default User,
“You whip out your super large alpha cock and tell her “Suck it or talk, either way I want your lips moving.”
Acually, I’ve already done something like this, but only when I feel some (it’s not even IOIs) willing on the part of the girl to continue the conversation and I am being “cock-blocked” (actually, conversation/kino-blocked) by someone (it is really sad when that someone is one of your “friends”). But my line is usually, “hey keep talking otherwise I will pull your hair out (and simultaneously, if there were some IOIs / successfull kino, it is a great opportunity to kino into the girl’s hair)” or plain beta things.
However, this only happens when one has already talked to her.
G Manifesto gave the better tip untill now.
But don’t get shy, keep them pouring in…
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i like PA’s response.
it may not have been her idea, but she knew, otherwise she would have been embarrassed.
i could maybe see this guy trying to be the funny dick, who just wants to make things awkward for the sake of amusing the group.
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Oscar Schindler’s move! But this guy isn’t Oscar Schindler.
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Welmer
From the “Miss-Leading” story.
Sixty (60) percent!.
I love the “better off with my lies” bit.
So guys, if you are cheating on your lovie, remember that she is probably cheating too and you should spare her pain by lying. She will be “better off” and so will you.
I hate being cynical, but sometimes there is no option.
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It’s not that unlikely, Welmer. People in the same broad social class will tend to date each other and to find the same kinds of locations attractive as hangout/date spots.
Place as socially stratified as DC is going to magnify this effect tenfold.
But fuck if it wouldn’t be HILARIOUS if some chick posted a “Roissy in Action” vid to youtube or something.
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“Lauren Cleri, 26, admitted on air she had cheated on her NYPD cop husband and preferred an ex-boyfriend. But she failed a polygraph, and lost $200,000, by answering “yes” when asked if she believed she was a good person.”
That is one of the most hard core things i have read. Dam
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Next new fad guys can have there fiances take a polygraph to determine if when they tell them they “love” them are they lieing or not. Holy Shit. Woman can do the same. Course yea some people probably don’t want to know lol
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welmer those links were nuts
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1) a
2) b
She’s probably lying, but regardless they’re there and are checking you out. This may be a tight group that tends to hang together, and if so, the group being there by chance isn’t that much more unlikely than one of her friends just happening to be there. Still it’s a big co-incidence, and the chances are she invited one or two of the group to advise her; the others probably tagged along. She did respond to the neg well and thereafter didn’t check for their reactions, so there’s not reason enough to end the date prematurely. She’s unsure of her own judgment, more than usual. There are upsides. She probably feels a little overwhelmed by you – you’re out of her comfort zone somewhat. Or she’s very new at all this. She’s almost certainly a good girl type. Sluts don’t proceed in this fashion.
However, girls normally bring best gfs or most “wise about guys” gfs to check out dates, not LJBF betas, or whole committees. But you say in the comments that he doesn’t seem to be the bf or brother of any of the girls there. So what’s his tag along excuse? Maybe he’s one of a tight group. His sending the drink over though means he has a special interest in her and being there without doubt. That 15 minutes in drink just before they filed by saying hi means you passed that group’s test, or he thought so anyway. Also doing that in front of that group means he has some kind of status in it too, most likely.
That drink registered with her as approval by that group as did how they left filing by and saying hi rather than remaining there. So there’s no longer any reason to leave the venue, and it’s stronger to stay. You now OWN that place in her mind – it’s your territory.
If the friends hadn‘t left the place you would need to. You don’t want to spend the evening with her playing to an audience and making sure to appear hard to get throughout– “slut shields up”. But you wouldn’t want to rush out either. Her bringing a friend of a committee to check you out is irritating but they’re there and it’s a fact, and unless you had decided to blow her off, the one’s whose advice she respects are gonna be opining to her the next day, fact. You don’t want to appear afraid of them assessing you. You’re confident you will pass assessment by any reasonable friends of hers without ulterior motives (the girls), but then you’re done with entertaining them, but then if they hadn’t left you’d want to take her off elsewhere to entertain her.
Ok 2), what’s the story with this beta who bought you both drinks after a 15 minute appraisal period? It’s not hard to figure why he’d want to be there but why did she want him to be, if he isn’t a regular fixture in that group? The other category of humans that hot girls commonly bring to check out and advise on guys they’re interested in is – the gay friend.
That also fits his sending over the drinks in front of the group too. So that’s what I’d go with about him but for one thing – at the end of the post in chief you say your preliminary conclusion as they walk by is that he’s an: ”Ingratiating beta who wanted to fuck my date.” So I’ll take that as a given too, nixing my gay guy theory.
Aside from his just being a regular fixture in that gang, she could for some reason be cluelessly persuaded that he does indeed have great powers of judging other men and looking out for her, even though he’s not gay. In other words he could be a LJBF beta that functions in her mind more or less like a gay friend. That would make her even more naïve and/or him borderline gay, or both.
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Just to be clear on one data point that I thought, and still think, is a safe assumption, that I inferred from Roissy’s post. “my usual first date lounge” + all that I’ve ever read on this site = Roissy picked the place.
Also, Roissy omits: (a) anything about initially meeting this chick there and (b) anything from this chick to the effect of ‘yeah I go there all the time.’
Therefore, unless corrected, I’m working on the assumptions that 1. Roissy picked the place and 2 when he told the girl about it she declined to mention anything that would suggest some of her friends might be there.
This + DC Metro area population and # of bars/lounges = highly improbable that the Brady Bunch just happened to show up.
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“Her friends were there in case you didn’t show up or you freak out about something that might be wrong or incompatible about her. I often do that on first or blind dates if I suspect the guy is a dog.
I don’t lie about it though. I find it comes in handy in situations where a guy’s wishful thinking might be a problem. It’s standard policy for me in Israel to triangulate dates. If all of my normal hanging out friends are busy, then I meet him at someplace one of my friends owns or manages.
A concerned social circle is an excellent cad filter.
If she was doing what I do, the guy who bought you the drink is her Gay friend, or someone who’s like a brother to her, who will kick your butt somehow or another if you mess up. It’s his way of saying, “I’m in charge of this bitch,” albeit platonically.
If your intentions are good, then you have nothing to worry about. You got his “not a psycho” stamp of approval. ”
Dear god you’re retarded. Tell me everything you know about how to woo women and I will do the exact opposite and be blessed with infinite success. Why do you even post on this blog? Everything you say just makes me want to punch a baby in the face because it’s so intolerably stupid.
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All people lie, it depends from person how big of guts you have to pull a big lie, in this context im a bunny, i hate lying coz it always came back to me and made me more harm then good, i learned this when i was 12. i sure pull small lies, like, why i came late, or a new haircut that someone had. Or when i was young that i took booze or money from parents. But i wouldnt lie to backtalk another person, i wouldn’t make up things,,,
And i can see sometimes, hazy guys, instead of lying, they just try to escape the question,well, not saying anything is also a form of lie.
I dont know if this girl was lying or not, i just say it happened to me and not only that incidence but another date as well, but that was in a bar that is like a center for all my friends, so it wasn’t to surprizing i met them later on, without phoning them to come there.
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HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO
If she was doing what I do, the guy who bought you the drink is her Gay friend, or someone who’s like a brother to her, who will kick your butt somehow or another if you mess up. It’s his way of saying, “I’m in charge of this bitch,” albeit platonically.
What a waste of time from the guy to watch over the girl as a big brother if he then goes and by drinks for a guy that is unreliable, couldn’t he see who she was dating? I mean if he was a guy then he should see…
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HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO
Sorry, it was somebody elses post that you cited, didnt read the last part.
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If Roissy goes on some 50 dates per years, 1% odds are not all that low. It certainly could happen, but I was simply trying to point out that the far more likely scenario is that she was lying.
In fact, the odds are so in favor of her lying > coincidence that it would be perfectly reasonable to make a character judgment based on the incident. If a guy were looking for an LTR and no pump and dump action, he should probably just cut the girl off right then and there and move on in order to increase his odds of meeting a quality woman.
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Biktopia
I’m just reading your comments. Our takes are similar.
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To actually answer the question though, 1. a, 2. c.
I come up with any possible reason to abort. I say that one of the women here is an ex who’s been really weird/stalky since we broke up, picking the hottest one also, might give some social proof. “I only asked you to meet here because there’s this other lounge I wanted to go to but it’s hard to find blah blah blah” Hell, you could even be sincere and honest and say “look I kinda wanted this to be just between the two of us, it’s kinda weird having your friends watching over us, let’s go somewhere else.” Think of any plausible reason for a venue change and if she won’t budge, it confirms my suspicions that she did indeed bring “chaperons” and there’s no way this is going anywhere anyway with betaboy making her ego the size of a watermelon. But I guess this is going to depend on your sexual market value relative to hers.
If we’ve got enough leverage here, I might as well just do nothing about the observers and continue. I really like ridiculing beta-boy for buying drinks and comment on men who attempt to buy the approval of women. I drink whatever he bought for me anyway, of course.
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To the extent the drink buying male is gay or borderline gay it’s
1) a
2) a
It’s just that Roissy has told us he’s a beta, implying hetro rather than gay. Also nobody does things for “no ulterior motive”. A gay guy gets social stroking and some vicarious straight world as a female thrill out of getting into the romantic life of the girl he’s advising and in extreme cases partly running.
Given what I quoted from Roissy above implying this guy isn’t straight up gay, I’m sticking with my borderline gay, or functions in that way with her.
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I read the post and only thought of one thing:
Roissy, it’s a trap!
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Looks like the “beta” was trying to one-up Roissy a little. I dunno, it doesn’t seem like the worst move in the world to me. Some guys might let it get under their skin, which of course is the object.
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HHHY just nailed it on calling bullshit.
Ktulah said, “A concerned social circle is an excellent cad filter.”
There is NO excellent cad filter, just excellent cads.
Empirical evidence from my weekend: With a small group of new acquaintances in a bar for an old friend’s bday, he recruits a hot blonde to meet us there for a “Day Three.” She arrives with a gorgeous friend in tow, which gives me the responsibility as a pal to keep her company while my boy does his thing. After 10 minutes (we are a couple of shoulder lengths’ apart), my friend’s girl apparently expressed regret that she was ignoring the girl I’m kicking it with. He tells her light-heartedly to relax because I’m an aspiring pick up artist and I will surely have plenty of good conversation to share. This would SEEM to blow up in our faces as the girl playfully shrieks, “Oh my GAWD! Stop talking to him – he’s a PICK UP ARTIST!” I give my buddy the thumbs up signal and we all proceed to ignore the warning.
Ten more minutes pass and my friend is making out with his girl and quickly swoops her back to his pad. The girlfriend follows and it then becomes my duty to cut this anchor loose, so I insist that my new friend take me to another bar because I’m not ready to go home. My buddy swoops but his girl still has time to send a couple texts that I did not see, but will GUARANTEE were along the lines of “Don’t hook up with that player kid tonight!”
Time passes; we are closing the next bar after couple of jack and gingers that she paid for. She has shared with me her aversion to blowjob lockjaw. I have framed myself as intelligent, successful, and confident. She has admitted to leaving Paris and moving out of her boyfriend’s apartment to find herself. I have told her that I want to kiss her and been rejected several times. Her friend has continued texting her, presumably AFTER getting banged out, to tell her she’s safe and to oh yeah, not get banged out herself by mister pickup. Yet after each of my failed kiss attempts, the girl’s body language leaned closer to me. She let me walk her home with constant reminders that I would not be going upstairs. Arms locked in the light drizzle, she smiled at me while I ran through several excuses for her to let me come up for just a few minutes, from drying off to borrowing an umbrella to sampling her neighborhood’s rumored-as-delicious tap water to even borrowing a book for the cab ride home, increasing my playfulness as these got progressively over the top. Would not let me kiss-close, would not fall for the “almost-kiss” trick, and texted me “Bisous!” after I gave her my number, then gave me a hug and enthused cheek-kiss.
Epilogue: While a solid eight hours of drinking surely had diluted my most crisp game, I couldn’t help but feel pride at monopolizing the night of a girl who was otherwise out of my league. I was also putting in work wearing the red letter “PUA” across my chest. While this seemed to work potently against the same-night swoop, it gave me TERRIFIC social proof AND latitude to slip up with a few beta tells. I will kick some text game in french and see if I can overcome a flake. I am positive my opportunity is greater than it should be.
To continue of the vibe of success, I went out the next night and swooped the cocktail waitress. But that is another story. Admittedly an above-average weekend for me.
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So the girl’s friend told her not to fuck you, and she didn’t fuck you. Aren’t you the master.
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A and A, let’s not be paranoid here
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Condensed version:
1) a
2) a if gay, b if staight
1) She’s probably lying, but regardless they’re there and are checking you out, and will be reporting back to her in the morning. It shows signs of being a tight regular group, which makes the co-incidence more possible, but still a long shot. She responded well to the neg and thereafter didn’t keep glancing at them for their reactions, so there’s no reason to bail Your job is thus while gaming her per usual, to remain in the locale long enough to show confident strength before the group before moving her to a new venue out of their gaze, where her slut shields won’t remain guaranteed up.
The drink the beta bought in front of the group whatever it says about him, and their then filing past, and the group saying hi on the way out the door, means you passed their test without question. You now OWN that territory in her mind, and it thus became far stronger to remain at that venue at least for awhile, than to change it right away.
The upside of her bringing a gf to evaluate you, who presumably brought the rest of the group with the beta with the hots for her in tow, is that she is very likely a good girl, and probably also quite new at this, or else you are outside her comfort zone, tiger. Sluts don’t act like this.
2) Evaluating the beta sending drinks. His sending over the drinks fifteen minutes in is obviously a signal of not just his but the group’s approval of you. Done as it was in front of that sizeable group also means he probably has some status within it. There’s also that lingering question of how HE came to be there, because girls normally ask their best gfs, or the one “wisest about men” to check out and advise, not LJBF betas. You say he doesn’t look to be any of the girl’s bf or brother. Yeah he could just be a regular part of a tight group. Or he could fall into that other category that hot girls call on to check out and advise on possible new bf’s – the GAY FRIEND. But you say at the end of the post: “Preliminary analysis: Ingratiating beta who wanted to fuck my date.”
Second thought analysis says that he’s gay. If not he could be a guy that she’s persuaded has great powers of judging other men and looking out for her, even though he’s not gay. In other words he could be a LJBF beta that functions in her mind more or less like a gay friend. That would make her naïve and/or him borderline gay, or both.
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If it’s your bar and you never saw her there before, it’s “a.” I know all the people who go to my bar by sight. Sadly, I live in a two pronged urban area, so when I go across the bridge, I lack this. Solution; don’t cross the bridge.
I’d say it’s either “a” or “d” on the second question. Really the answer is, “who fucking cares: free shots because Roissy is awesome.” I mean, it’s a shot, not a white wine spritzer. He just saved you $8 and the effort of talking her into doing a shot with you on the first date.
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TMZ: “So the girl’s friend told her not to fuck you, and she didn’t fuck you. Aren’t you the master.”
As I alluded to several times in my story, no I am not. That’s the point. If I had been billed as some degree of AFC or genuine nice guy, I’d have been much more likely to get blown out by this worldly, low 9ish type.
Only G Manifesto’s targets require no Day Twos. If this girl requires a meal at some point, I will suggest a “sandwich americain.” Learned from the master.
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Ragtag,
Don’t know why MSN is regurgitating this old Oprah mag article on its front page all of a sudden, but it’s ancient history…it originally ran as “Love Lessons From a Serial Dater” in February 2003, but apparently that title didn’t manipulate enough airheads to click on it.
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A and D
Will a girl that does this give you a full close that night? NO
Will drink buying beta eventually be helping you move house and take her wedding dress shopping yes
The correct way to play this is….
Ignore the blips on the Radar – stay on target for 15 mins spend 15 building attraction, flirt, kino, eyes, etc etc.
Then when the drink comes pick it up say
“I’m not taking this anymore”
And walk over to the group alone leaving her behind – and then go and open the group, kino every girl in the group, party with the group and eventually leave her and the group early so you can go lone wolf sarging.
She’ll text you for a hook up / turn up at your house the following Tuesday morning….guaranteed.. then you can turn drink buying beta into your beta slave.
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Max from Australia
LoL
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Its a prime strategy to open the group –
1) the alpha female of the group (afog) who organised the group attendance is also gagging for it. So while Date girl is your first draft wide reciever, afog is your long snapper.
Its also safe to open the group –
2) after drink buying beta bought the drinks her LOI in him slumped to deep-sub-zero. He is not a threat
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Christ you all sound like a bunch of insecure, paranoid betas terrified that every dude or social group is going to interrupt the steps of some precarious read-it-on-the-internet plan that you desperately hope might one day get you laid.
If you weren’t there, you have no idea if the girl is lying or not. You have no idea if the drink-buyer is trying to separate you from your pussy or simply act as spokesman for the group in the corner (hey, we approve! congratulations, now drink your fucking drink, take the girl home, and stop looking over your shoulder like you’re in a prison shower).
This may come as a shock to you, but not every guy treats womanizing as a zero-sum game to be battled out between male gladiators in drinking venues across the city. Some of us actually get laid on a regular basis – some of us even have girlfriends (gasp!) – and actually encourage our single female friends (especially the stubborn ones) to quit whining, loosen up, and get fucking laid for a change.
If you’re afraid of all the other guys in the room, *you’re* the beta – not them.
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^ wrong – you dont have to be there to know that she’s lying and that drink-buying-beta is infatuated by her.
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^
Her inviting friends along = she owns the frame
Drinking the beta juice right their infrount of her = her frame was so fragile (arnt the all) that now beta owns the frame….. and she will resent you for that….
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The answers are :
1A : She is lying. She was planning to be in that group of 6-7 friends, and just scheduled the date for the same time, for screening purposes. Women who do this, however, never get anywhere, as it is too inefficient of a way to screen guys.
A PUA with top game would proactive go to that group and start chatting up another woman there. That would not only make the first woman jealous, but also make her more attracted to the PUA.
2 : C. For sure. It is the default state for most Betas.
Again, the best way to handle the situation is to go over there and work the set, eventually connecting with one of the other girls in the group (whether she is attractive or not). That is the LAST thing the first woman will expect. But it requires pretty solid Game to execute something like this.
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I’m gone after the first paragraph.
“Where are you going?”
“To my car.”
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So, did the Easter Egg from the previous thread get revealed? What was it?
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I note that Drink Buying beta has money – I suggest you go to the bathroom with him and tell him you’ll talk him up and ecourage her to go out with him and then walk away for the sum of $2000…..
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Again,
The answer is 1A. She was lying – she was part of the group all along, and simply had the group meet in that place where Roissy was meeting her, since they were ‘going out for drinks anyway’.
However, she probably did not tell the whole group that she had a date at the same time. She maybe told only 1 of the women in that group, with the rest of the group not being in the loop.
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You know, the embarrassment that the woman will feel if you get up and walk out on her right in front of her little clique might be worth the poon loss. But chatting up the weakest (i.e. least attractive) girl in the group sounds good too. Saying something like “Your friend is nice and everything, but you seem really interesting.”
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OK, the more I think about it, the Supreme Game strategy here is to :
1) Walk over to the group, work the set, and chat up another woman in the group. Whether she is more, less, or equal to the first woman in the group is not important (as long as she is not TOO ugly). This is the LAST thing any of them will expect.
2) After the drinks arrive (assuming you are back with the first girl. Note that action 1) might alter the whole timeline and not get the drinks sent to you), then praise the Beta guy in a way that makes him look ultra-Beta :
“What a nice guy! You are lucky to have such a nice friend. He not only buys drinks for women he dates, but even for his friends. Some woman will be really lucky to wind up with such a NICE, polite, gentleman. ”
Bingo : He has moved into zero-attraction zone in the woman’s mind. Note how many times you say that he is NICE.
The 1-2 punch above is the answer to this situation.
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^ I like it but I still dont think you can put that Beta juice to your lips and swallow it down….its not a good look
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“You know, the embarrassment that the woman will feel if you get up and walk out on her right in front of her little clique ”
Terrible strategy. You would just like like an angry Beta with no finesse.
Remember, amused mastery is the desired persona you want. Not ‘angry Beta who can’t handle situations’.
The look on her face if you go over and passively Game another woman in the group will be 100X better. It is something they would have never remotely anticipated.
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^agreed – you should also be drinking YOUR chosen drink – I suggest a glass of nice red wine
-who does shots 15 mins in anyway??? school kids
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You’re 100% right, Tood.
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Meanwhile in other news :
Stem cells to allow natural breast enlargement.
It is expected to be available in 2010, and cost just about $12,000.
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Dam evil max coming out today lol
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Voodude —
Oh yes sex and romance are INDEED a zero sum game. That is in fact the nature of it all.
Consider: if some guy has sex with your wife or girlfriend, he wins and you lose. Period. That is zero-sum.
So much of sex and romance are zero-sum that people apply the principles to other things (economic transactions) beyond where it’s appropriate.
This is a truth everyone knows. Just as there is limited, very limited, supply of single, attractive women. When you “win” by having sex/romance with her, some other guy does INDEED LOSE, and every guy she has sex with, decreases the ability marginally to bond strongly with a future guy. [This also likely applies to men as well.]
Life is generally in matters of the heart and groin, a zero sum affair. There’s no getting around that or changing it in any way. It just is.
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To Miss Suzy: “I should say hello to your friends. Please introduce us.”
To the set: “Miss Suzy and I are conducting a seduction clinic. You guys have to leave, or buy tickets.”
This establishes: I am the man. Dont gawk or run interference. Leave. We may be leaving soon ourselves.
My favorite comment so far:
There is NO excellent cad filter, just excellent cads.
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Max: “Oh, darling, this stuff is simply trash. I only drink red wine, darling. I have taste. Please, let me be your wedding planner.”
It just goes to show, all in the attitude and vibe, can you pull it off without being camp or non-alpha petty?
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Come on Roissy, did you hit it or what?
I agree with the other posters here. The best idea would be to go to the washroom or something, and then open her friends on the way back, leaving her sitting at the bar on her own for 20 mins.
It also does smell like a set up, as far as her friends being there goes. Although I have a few beta (omega?) friends who would buy the couple a drink just to be cute/put them on the spot, not necessarily because they lust after the girl.
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1. a – if it were podunk Arkansas, sure it could be chance, but DC is a big city. This is especially true if you, Roissy, picked the venue (which is your M.O., isn’t it?)
If she picked the venue, well, are we supposed to believe that none of her good huggy friends asked if she wanted to join them on their night out? In this case, she knew they were there and led you.
The reason doesn’t matter, though, the key is to get her out of there.
2. b – it’s a pathetic scheme. He wants you to be talking about him – what a great guy – because in his strangled mind, being the nice guy is the way to get her. Whatever the case, answers a, b, or c should be paired with d for the highest accuracy.
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Whiskey —
It’s on a logarithmic scale depending upon the alphaness of who she’s had sex with before, especially mini relationship or fling sex with on up, but even just sex with, seems to me. Lots of prior middling beta sex partners might not have much impact on her. That would be a strange pattern for a hot girl however.
Love flings with two or three full on alphas combined with lots of higher beta and lesser alpha sluttery (together with the normal for good girls these days several higher beta long term relationships), will make it awfully unlikely for her to fall intensely in love with any lesser alpha on down, however.
Could she fall intensely in love with a full on alpha who wanted to settle down with her? Not sure. Less so though than if she hadn’t had a slut history. And my guess is it would be likely to be a lot less of an intense or long lasting bonding.
There’s still relationship bonding, but without the sex/love bonding, that shades over into deeply intertwined friendship, that is when it’s very good.
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It smells less like a set-up and more like a multi-task. She wants to have some drinks with friends before drinks with the date, keep the mood happy and light going in, and have an out if she doesn’t like the guy. So, 1A, she was lying, just so she didn’t have to explain herself, but it’s no hanging offense.
As for the guy, just too little info to say. Maybe he’s hung up on her and does something weird in a deliberate attempt to show how mature he is, like the world is watching and testing him and he’s always supposed to pass these moral tests.
Or he’s just trying to keep everything light and friendly by buying you both a drink so you’ll be more inclined to join the group, or at least not think you can’t.
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“What a nice guy! You are lucky to have such a nice friend. He not only buys drinks for women he dates, but even for his friends. Some woman will be really lucky to wind up with such a NICE, polite, gentleman. ”
Yes, you’d sure show everybody how cool you are by obsessing over him in front of the group.
If you want to play that game, stick with: “What a nice guy! You are lucky to have such a nice friend.”
Anything more, and you’re too visibly overdoing it.
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I don’t know how good my social acumen may be, but I can definitely sniff (heh!) out some serious GNP action!
Peter
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Peter has latent bestial proclivities. He actually wants the woman’s buttocks to be covered in wiry pubic hair, by his own admission.
Eeeewwwww!
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I like this line from Voodude.
“If you’re afraid of all the other guys in the room, *you’re* the beta – not them.”
It’s similar to the poker line: “If you can’t spot the sucker at the table, you’re the sucker.”
Although, I have a feeling Roissy is observing everyone’s behavior for the social dynamics of it all, not from a fear of stacking up. When you think about these things; women and men attempting to optimize what they want given societal constraints, it’s hard not to take in every aspect of the situation.
As for myself, since I’ve started reading up on HBD and Roissy’s board, I find myself observing many of my social interactions. Even at bars I’ll watch guys working sets, body language, dead/alive eyes, etc. Since I have a girlfriend, this is the next best option to gaming.
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Great response Whiskey – very true
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Dougjn — the problem is that the release of sex hormones that cause intense bonding lose their effectiveness once more and more partners enter into the equation. No bonding is as intense as the first pair bonding, for both men and women. This is evolution’s way of putting two, highly intelligent, individualistic, people together in intense pair bonds for about 22 years or so, the amount of time it would take to raise about 4 children with spacing between pregnancies.
There is a evo-bio reason why most cultures try to limit sex before marriage, particularly for women, but also for men. Continued intimacy with a regular partner tends to release these complex hormones that cause pair bonding. It’s powerful stuff, but … it decreases the more regular partners one has.
Cultures that have such arrangements, like West Africa, Black American Ghettos, or the White British underclass and increasingly middle class, tend to have minimal to no fatherly investment in children and a race to the bottom in masculinity.
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#1 a/c
although whether she’s lying or not doesn’t really matter as stated earlier
#2 b+d
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Well, i think going caveman earlier is an option in this. Just bust out the club like a gladiator in front the arena crowd then bounce =)
Speaking of decaying pair bonds… lol.. did anyone else notice this new Mars candy bar product called FLING “Your boyfriend doesn’t have to know” lol…… In a subtext sort of way this is hilarious… because, you know it would be the female gender’s best best interest to keep that fact of behavior in the background…
http://adage.com/article?article_id=135631
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D. H. Lawrence
Those that go searching for love, only manifest their own lovelessness. And the loveless never find love, only the loving find love. And they never have to seek for it.
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Don’t lose your cool. The guy is too ineffectual to derail your date without your help.
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the answers to these two questions are irrelevant. she might be lying, she might be telling the truth. she might have set up this situation or it might have just happened. her friends might be cool or hot or beta or alpha or asshole. it doesn’t matter. either way, it functions as a test.
the important thing: change the dynamic. you need to leave. not nervously, not immediately. but within a half hour. preferably with her. but your leaving must not depend on that.
talk about another party elsewhere. see her response. say that’s where you’re going (regardless of her response). take her with you. if she objects, assume she is feeling obliged to her friends. say you understand her situation (subcommunicating that you think she would prefer to be alone with you). then smile at her conspiratorially, then whisper in her ear: “go off and talk to your friends, then text me when you’re free. i’ll let you know where i am.”
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@whiskey: That is nonsense – but I’m perfectly happy to accept that you believe it. It’s also not the point I was getting at.
There are plenty of men in bars who are not The Enemy. The guy who bought the drink might be happily married and doing his best to get his female friend laid. He might be cheering on an ex-girlfriend. He might simply be point man on the group’s decision to play in a drunken game – and guess what, the laugh’s on us, because here we are spewing pages and pages of droll overanalysis like we’re Sigmund Motherfucking Freud.
Roissy likes to overgeneralize and reduce everyone to a lowest-common-denominator. The commenters like to extrapolate from two pieces of information to a whole life-story. This forum is a Rorschach test of bullshit that says much more about the storyteller than it does about anything in the real world.
At least it’s entertaining bullshit.
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Hehe. I like that. “Hey honey, when I went out with friends tonight, I bought this girl a drink, because I thought I ought to help get her laid.” Wives love that stuff. lol.
Oh yeah, when you’re at a pick-up joint where everyone’s horny and buzzed and you’re talking to a good-looking woman, most men observing are just trying to make sure that you are the one who gets to take her home.
At this point in my life, I wouldn’t really care whether the entire bar wants to screw the woman, but I’m no fool. In fact, the only real reason to take a hot woman to a pick-up joint is for a mutual ego boost, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But if you’re looking for a quality woman to bear your children, you’ve got to judge her on her honesty and integrity, which includes her and her friends’ social behavior. If you don’t, you’ll just learn the hard way (like most of us do anyway).
If I were to suggest a place to meet a woman I’m really interested in, it would be warm, private and comfortable. If she’s just some hot tramp, the more eyes the better (tramps get wet from attention).
And really, what guy wants to meet a woman’s friends on the first date? What an annoyance.
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@Voodude: Your trying to sound perceptive. We all do, so that’s OK.
Roissy likes to overgeneralize and reduce everyone to a lowest-common-denominator. The commenters like to extrapolate from two pieces of information to a whole life-story.
Neh. Now you are overgeneralizing. The premise and setting is there for a reason. Other posts show that Roissy can draw firm conclusions from the relevant cues. If you can’t do that, you’re still here to learn, like most of us.
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The second part of that comment is a quote from Voodude. How do you do proper quotes here? I tried html, but apparently it failed.
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Man I hate fucking up my crafted comments. Eternal gratitude to the one telling me how to quote.
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It’s not a complete disaster that her friends are there. I think you overlooking the chance to build rapport with them. It’s an easy way to build comfort with her, and you can still also build attraction by embedding DHVs in your conversation with them. It’s more believable if you are telling it to her friends, with her present, rather than directly to her.
She will also be less interested if she feels that you can’t get along with the men in her life. It should also be fairly easy to tell the relationships between the men and the women in the group just by talking with them. A simply “so how do you all know each other?” should tell you the intentions of the guy who bought you two drinks.
___________________________
As for the actual questions, #1 could be any of the 4. However, you should always assume it’s A or D, and act accordingly. In this case, change of venue.
As for #2, you should assume the worst, but act like it was A. When it happens, do what you did, nod.
Answers B, C and D are basically all the same in how you would treat them. Act like you are his friend, but make your intentions clear to him and your date.
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Beta Files:
Yeah!!! After six months or so I finally arranged a (kind of) date with my ten!!! (who doesn’t care a buck about me and is in love with a pseudo-alpha rich guy)
However, her eyes will for sure transmit confidence to me… and a bit of that feeling that tells us that life is worth living you know… I’ve really been lacking that.
More than that, I mannaged to get her boyfriend out of the equation while trying to making her acceptable again in out group of friends who are damn mad at her. So, I’ll be the only guy (and among other girls as well) she will have some proximity to. 🙂
I’ll not only drink my life back from her eyes (friday will be party downtown with 30~40 unkown college girls + going out to bars/disco/street) I will also try to use some game at her, as well as to any other women I don’t know. (Maybe, I’ll have the guts to open confidently a stranger)
I will 1st of all, try to make my ten laugh. As well as serving as her emotional support and (even if needed be) open a war against my best friends over this girl who does not care a fuck about me.
I will also try to kino her. My kino has only been natural, and I don’t like to be hugging every one. Arms and hands kino. If it happens, I’ll go even further, but I’ll try to make her confortable with me touching her hands and arms constantly, and I’ll try to make her search for me as well (though it won’t happen; it only happend some six times in three years).
Essentially, this is my goal: To softly game her like this and, once I’m making a ten laugh, open another girl I don’t know confidently (a 6 or an 8; though I usually feel only compelled to talk to an 8 or plus).
But it also depends on her moves. Let’s see if she will want to sit next to me during lunch (I was the one who always tried to sit next to her, once I was almost got involved in a fight with a “friend of mine” who also wanted to bone her because of a place next to her) and especially, during the movies; During the movies kino may go a little bit further because my Coke and popcorns will disapear and she will have to share with me. Let’s see what happens…
And I’ll probabily will report more beta files about my lat friday. Really Beta.
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Well…if it wasn’t a blind or internet date, then she might not have known her friends were going to be there, but she could probably have guessed they would be. She may or may not be lying, but I would save this incident in my mind as a possible indicator of deceptiveness. Wait to get to know her better before it becomes a certainty, but do take it on board. Manipulative behavior early on is a bad sign.
…and Welmer, intimidation is the point. I wouldn’t mind if a guy wanted his friends to meet me or made it clear that he has female friends. Scrutiny is only a problem for people who have a problem with accountability.
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Q1: Does it matter? Should you hang around her enough you’ll find out.
Q2: Didnt bother reading through the replies to see if this has already been posted, but…
I’d go for the girl beeing so bad at meeting guys her friends bought both of you a drink just to increase her chances with roissy(while ofc failing;)
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Enter the Obsidian…
Interesting post, R. To be honest, I’ve never encountered such a situation, but Life has taught me to expect the unexpected.
Others have mentioned as much, but I will briefly reiterate; take the drinks offered by her guy friend, bust it up a bit w/her, walk arm in arm w/her over to her friends, exchange pleasentries, and bounce.
That’s it.
O
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D and B.
WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE:
upon receiving the shots poured in front of us, I would’ve turned to my date and said, “Wanna see something funny?” Then, without waiting for permission but not leaving enough time for objection once it became obvious what I was going to do, I would’ve taken both shot glasses, raised them up to BetaBoy across the room, and then BLAM-GULP-BLAM-GULP, fired down both shots for him to see.
if she laughed, then cool, I’d buy us another round and have one with her. if she objected or said “that was mean/rude/whatever”, I would’ve said something to the affect of, “Where I come from, you don’t buy drinks for girls who are out on dates with someone else. His intentions might’ve been noble, but at some point, he’s gotta let you go.” BABOOOOM, an atomic bomb of betatude is anchored to her lickspittle friend in her mind.
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Hmm, just what every guy wants.
Are you a cop by any chance? Because cops are just about the only people who believe that. Or maybe Israelis, too, but I don’t live there, so I can’t say for sure.
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A, B.
Run some game on the group, just like if she were the intended target in an N-set. Show Beta-boy no particular attention nor malice. There’s no need to undercut him, and no need to feel any threat from him.
After a while, explain that it’s time to bounce. Bounce.
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1. D
2. could be B,C,D
Response:
Buy her friends a round and take her someplace else.
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The first one can’t be A because if she wanted to bring along an arsenal of friends for “protection,” she probably wouldn’t have gone out with you in the first place. I’m going to say D for both of them.
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This is an interesting because the answer to the second question depends upon the answer to the first. If your date brought her friends along for back-up or ‘protection’, then the drink buyer was likely playing the role of supportive friend by giving a gift to the ‘two love birds’. If she randomly met her friends there, chances are higher that he was (ineffectually) trying to interfere. That said, if the latter is the case, he seems more like an ineffectual piner than anything else -nothing to be too worried about.
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No two ways about it, this chick didn’t have enough confidence to go it alone. Either one or more of her “friends” were in on it in advance.
Most folks have the guy in different categories but those who see it broadly are probably more accurate.
Regardless, the guy is ineffectual regardless of his intentions, known or unknown. His approval by buying drinks comes across as possessive at worst and foolish at best.
Being that her friends bailed after a certain amount of time means they saw no threat in Roissy. How little they know.
This chick is now even more primed to be pumped and dumped in three dates. She her friends “approval” which we all know chicks of such thinking are exceptionally weak willed and as a result she is liable to use even worse judgement since they already thought Roissy was ok.
Glad it isn’t my sister, because I would be like those people are doing you a disservice.
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give the lying chick the drink her a-hole buddy bought for *you*
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[…] 17, 2009 by roissy Your ability to quickly identify and avoid social miscues, and to capitalize on power vacuums within shifting social arrangements, is more valuable to your […]
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a and c.
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