Conventional wisdom is that human females don’t go into heat — that is, their ovulation is hidden from male discernment — but I believe this is only partially true. The bars and clubs during the last couple weeks have been drenched in intoxicating estrogen. I notice this each year when spring begins, right around the end of March and beginning of April. The women are on the prowl, and the men are slabs of beef dangling from meathooks for inspection.
What does a roomful of sexually excited women look like? ADHD liplicking gigglebombs with perpetual pelvic grind syndrome.
The women jump from one man to the next, heaving their bosoms and smiling with glossed lips, expressing the full sensuality of their bodies in arched backs, thighs rubbing together, fingertips lightly grazing every available surface. They want the men to suffocate on their womanly bouquet, to lose control. Attention whoring is at DefCon “I’m on PornoHub” level. It’s been a hassle lately to keep one woman’s attention for long because their raging hormones are driving them to sample every man within sight, until the best cock they can afford presses its chub against her belly. That’s been the downside. The upside is that there’s a new woman eager to talk to you everywhere you turn.
Unfortunately, this nirvana won’t last long. By mid-April, the estrogen surge will have depleted itself, and most of these horny chicks will have either gotten themselves boyfriends or regressed back to their usual bitchy, arms crossed selves. Your window to act is short. Smart men know that this is the time of year to go out every night of the week to fatten up on the bounty. Be like the crocodiles gorging on the stampede of wildebeest crossing the treacherous river during their annual migration.
Men don’t understand the compulsion of the springtime female hormonal surge because our hormones surge year round. We might have a downtick in our libido now and then, like after brain surgery or a death in the family (immediate relations only), but mostly we’re good to go regardless of the season. I’m especially immune to hormone surges because my libido is at a constantly elevated state. If it goes any higher the tip could explode.
I notice this each year when spring begins, right around the end of March and beginning of April.
I wonder if Sagitariuses and Capricorns are overrepresented among humans.
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Nothing enhances a wonderful womanly boquet like … well, you can figure out the rest.
Peter
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One also wonders if this type of thing happens more in northern, cooler climates since there is greater differences in seasons.
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Every late March/early April, I too always notice an uncanny surge in attractive, seemingly willing females. Significantly larger quantities of attractive women wearing significantly less clothes. My conclusion had always been that these women were always out there, but in the winter they were all covered up and I just wasn’t noticing them.
There’s another notable shift I perceive at the beginning of every September. After a slow august/late july, there seems to be a city wide clusterfuck of women trying to hook up and eventually nail down a significant other before Thanksgiving. The apparent shifts in the dating market that at least seem to occur at this time of year are far more intriguing to me, if only because they occur with the kind of eerie predictability that, typically, only biological function can account for. And, personally, I’m not aware of any scientific studies that have looked into it.
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being a prisoner,I dont get to see this.
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I’ve found that going out when the Moon is either full or close to it gets very good results: Women are more amenable towards your advances at that time. I’ve found this to generally hold true year round, but Roissy’s observation about Springtime is definitely something that should be more closely studied.
It only makes sense that we, like the rest of life on the planet, act in accordance w/our ebb and flows. I know for a fact that there are certain times of a given year that are much more sexual than others, and only the most accomplished lovers will be successful during those leaner times.
And herein lay one of my own secrets: instead of runnin around like a headless chicken, I instead take note of the “weather” around me and plan accordingly. The best seductions were conducted at times most conducive to a favorable outcome. Pardon the pun.
By the way, in case anyone’s interested, you’ve got about another month or so of really good gettin’s, as Venus retrogrades out of Aries and back into Pisces, where it will meet up with Mars. Have fun, and don’t say I aint ever give you anything.
😉
O
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One also wonders if this type of thing happens more in northern, cooler climates since there is greater differences in seasons.
Certainly does out here in the mountain west.
http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2009/03/two-springtime-musings.html
I don’t think the diff is that big, though, since I remember my nose being thrown for a loop back in Maryland too.
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[…] to Roissy in DC: Unfortunately, this nirvana won’t last long. By mid-April, the estrogen surge will have depleted […]
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Spring Fever. In college, professors lament that this time of year no one can be made to pay attention.
If you live near a school for higher ed, hit up a bar or two in the next few weeks, stat. Me, NYU sounds like a conquest I currently need.
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i think there are several factors at play. one that is overlooked is the high expectations people have for upcoming warm-weather seasons.
i myself fall into this trap. i run around saying how much i can’t wait for summer and talk about all the things i’m going to do (most of which never happen). during early spring, as people are thinking about these possibilities, their thinking is being propelled by their gut instead of their rational head.
people are idealistic rather than realistic, and we all know the benefits of idealistic chicks over realistic ones. as roissy mentioned, this change isn’t as noticable in males since we have heightened libidos throughout the year.
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“The bars and clubs in DC during the last couple weeks have been drenched in intoxicating estrogen. I notice this each year when spring begins, right around the end of March and beginning of April.”
Washington DC has one of the most pronounced Spring Swoop Seasons of any city.
This phenomenon is almost non-existent in California.
In DC during this time, there seems to be 100 times the amount of girls as in winter.
I think this phenomenon lasts well thru May.
May is DC is like playing checkers against a 2 year old.
That’s the kind of month where you can pull a “30-30”.
That is, swoop 30 girls in 30 days.
– MPM
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There are two surges as far as I can tell. The spring time, whose kick off point is closely aligned with St. Patty’s day and there’s a fall surge as well, its usually post labor day and lasts for about a month, maybe a month and a half tops. I posit the spring time surge is hormonal, the fall surge is psychological.
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G, always a pleasure.
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I think sometimes its half-conscious. The spring surge is partially because girls don’t like going out in the cold; warm weather makes it easier for “just one drink.” Just being able to be out exposes more of them to “swooping.”
The fall one, as DF helpfully has called, is about gettign ready for winter, and is subconscious. Women like sleeping next to men in the winter because men generate more heat—hence the term “the Quiet Man.” It’s from our ice age days. So the quest for a mate in the fall is about securing that for them—and also because, in our weird world, fall is about new beginnings: school starts, new fall season, etc. Women take these times to try to lock down everything: man, job, school, etc.
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p.s. the deadest time of the year is August in nyc. Never have I seen so few women—there are more out in a blizzard.
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it’s also due to a tranformation *in both sexes* in attitude. sunlight, warmth, skimpier clothing make both sexes happy. they’re more relaxed, less on-guard, and have a better time. all of these align for G’s great swooping season.
can’t explain the fall surge though.
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“April is the cruellest month, breeding lilacs out of dead land, mixing memory with desire, stirring dull roots with spring rain.”
It is definitely the season now. In the past weekend, Pupu saw two birds mating next to a creek, and a third bird making a lot of noise in the sky.
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i probably shouldn’t give this away, but there are better places than Marvin and Ex, especially now. just gotta get off U Street for a hot minute and head west, young man.
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that being said, very astute observation.
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30-30 eh G?
You are on my friend.
Swoop overdrive, engaged.
– RagTag
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“i probably shouldn’t give this away, but there are better places than Marvin and Ex, especially now. just gotta get off U Street for a hot minute and head west, young man.”
JKC – so you are implying Dupont (Golden triangle), Adams Morgan or Georgetown.
I agree with Roissy on St. Ex. Marvin not so much; sometimes has too many dudes. I’d include Local 16 on that list however. This time of year its loaded with cooch.
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“I notice this each year when spring begins, right around the end of March and beginning of April.
I wonder if Sagitariuses and Capricorns are overrepresented among humans.”
Actually you have a surge 9 months out from the winter months.
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We don’t have many chicks, but this is the time of year the Taliban likes to start fucking with us. Woot
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Ah, spring fever – everyone seems to agree it’s real and awesome! Although I disagree with roissy’s implication that this has to do with ovulation, as that’s a monthly cycle, not yearly or seasonal. So it’s probably more psychological or emotional in nature; viz., the fall “nesting” for the winter – security, warmth, etc – that comment was right on. Maybe the spring one is about the bodies being more exposed to nature in the warm weather; maybe it’s something to do with the trees and flowers blooming; maybe it’s just the general female emotional state of happiness and openness caused by pleasant, sunny weather after months of cold. either way – hallelujah!
i also think Dup area is better than U St or Adams Morgan – they attract a somewhat different type. maybe that’s because I hang out there more often and know the spots better. i sometimes think location has less to do with it than state of trendiness. the hot places attract people who want that kind of scene; the places that are more established and have been around for a while attract their various niches of regulars and like-minded newbies. i agree with roissy that the former is better for pickup, but i generally go to the places I know and like and can do pretty well.
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“Men don’t understand the compulsion of the springtime female hormonal surge because our hormones surge year round.”
Are you crazy? I dunno how the weather is in DC, but pretty much from November to Feburary or early March, whenever it finally stops snowing and gets warmer, my drive plummets to like 1/4th of it’s intensity in May or September.
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Ev bio just-so story:
The optimal birthing time for a woman is April/May for obvious reasons. The average time for a conception to occur is 3-4 months. So now is the ideal time for women to go into man-chasing overdrive.
Testable implications:
1) Girls should be more relationship-seeking now, more fling-seeking in August
2) The entire effect should be more pronounced in northern climates.
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” The entire effect should be more pronounced in northern climates.”
Not when there are still blizzards in April. I’m not leaving my house til July.
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“In the Spring, a young mans thoughts turn towards what he has been thinking about all winter.”
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Ev bio just-so story:
The optimal birthing time for a woman is April/May for obvious reasons. The average time for a conception to occur is 3-4 months. So now is the ideal time for women to go into man-chasing overdrive.
Rather worthless I would say. Humans probably evolved in a sub-tropical climate, without such pronounced seasons. Plus, for people on the other side of the equator, the opposite plan would be true, as our spring is their fall. The month with the highest births in the US is usually November, almost certainly because of Valentine’s Day, nine month’s before.
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Not when there are still blizzards in April. I’m not leaving my house til July.
No shit.. it’s 38 degrees and raining out. I’m staying indoors with the winter nesting partner for at least another month.
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Obsidian,
The full-moon thingy is quite true. My mother, a former nurse, used to work in a retirement home and worked a stint in a mental ward. In both places, the full moon nights were crazy, and all the nurses knew it was coming and prepared themselves for it. Oldsters walking around nude swinging their walkers at anyone who got in their way, mental patients getting very agitated, etc. The behavior was different than any of the other nights, and these people obviously have less constraint over their own behavior.
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The full moon thing is apparently bullshit:
http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html
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Based on my lifetime of observations, I think the April female hormone surge is real, and a rutting behavior that is strongly directed at the most uber-alphas. Most guys don’t see much of it.
The autumn surge may just be more comfort-related. September/October has always been the strongest part of my swooping calendar.
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The Summer is coming…The girls are in rare form. I love it. A little bit of effort can get you a long way, but you just have to move fast. This description is right on the money from what I’ve seen… I also think the Summer heat will start extracting the better looking women from their hibernation. Once they are comfortable with their tans, get their hair dyed and done up and start exercising a little more…then it is a whole new kind of hunting. 7’s turn to 8’s, 8’s turn to 9’s…9’s, they stay 9’s, I’ll let you know if I bump into a 10…
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[…] on springtime Hormonal Surge Roissy in DC (you see a clear impact on endocrine patterns following the vernal equinox in many species – why […]
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“Attention whoring is at DefCon “I’m on PornoHub” level.” So this means they’re acting like they’re a whorish PornoHub chick or we’re acting like they’re supposed to be a PornoHub chick, or either way: PornoHub.
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Rather worthless I would say. Humans probably evolved in a sub-tropical climate, without such pronounced seasons.
But they did not stop evolving when they migrated to other areas. Just look at people from various corners of the world.
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I’ve noticed this lately as well. It’s matin’ season. Damn shame that college doesn’t start on April Fools Day. Last such event was lead up to Vally’s day, but that was brief and not as hormonal.
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Unrelated. Can anyone here shed light on the best way to go about bringing a trial text to a date? Roissy has touched on several things around this issue, but never addressed it fully. I can’t seem to find a style that I like through all the studying I’ve been doing. My current transition phrase went something like this:
Me: (trial text of my choosing)
Her: Who’s this?
Me: Brad, seems like we’ve been down this road before.
Her: Oh, sorry. I went through my phone and deleted all numbers of people I wasn’t talking to the other day.
Me: How about buying me a cup of tea and entertaining me to make up for it?
(No Response)
Cold bitch? Am I doing something wrong? Feedback.. or maybe this can be a future post from roissy.
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I think the spring surge may be attributed to the warmth, the increased sunlight and the shedding of clothes that goes along with that. Also, in a university setting or town, things are coming to an end so that makes most students less attentive and more interested in revelry.
The fall surge is more purely biological and, although I can’t site anything at the moment, I have read some information somewhere that shows it is a real thing. The reason is this: a woman who gets pregnant in the late summer/early fall will have her child the next spring or summer. This makes the chances of that child surviving better than if she give birth in the winter. Of course modern societies tend to negate all this, but if you look to our tribal and primordial past it makes sense for the survival of precious offspring.
Studies show that men also have an increased burst of testosterone in the fall too, which would fit in with the mating purposes. I remember a lot of my own crushes used to form in the fall rather than spring. And if you look at a lot mammals mating occurs in the fall.
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I like the part where the males strip shirtless and lock horns, vying for female attention
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Roissy,
A while back you posted about Lily Allen, and I didn’t really who she was.
Here is a Lily Allen Track for you:
Featuring Wale of course.
– MPM
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Brad,
I’m no expert, but that seems a little aggressive and unnatural, like walking up to a girl in the bar and saying to her “hey, howsabout you buy me a beer?”.
Don’t think that would go over too well. Demonstrates a certain cockiness, but doesn’t make you interesting.
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“Unrelated. Can anyone here shed light on the best way to go about bringing a trial text to a date?”
Also unrelated: as a matter of curiosity, does anyone know what the possible legal ramifications of “nuke the pussy from orbit game” might be? As in, girl flakes on text, so she gets an animated .gif image of your ballbag. I have posed this to all my lawyer friends recently and can’t get a straight answer from anyone, apart from “hilarious use of a braciol in the second degree.”
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Brad
Forget about her – shes gone – this is how you should have played it….
Me: (trial text of my choosing)
Her: Who’s this?
Me: Brad,
Her: Oh, sorry. I went through my phone and deleted all numbers of people I wasn’t talking to the other day.
Me: How about buying me a cup of tea and entertaining me to make up for it?
(No Response)
Am I doing something wrong?
No dude – she just doens’t like you, its not your fault, remember like most western g’s shes probably had half a dozen abortions and been with the whole football team….
My prescription is for you to go out and sarge day and night for 10 days. and never contact her again
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jackson –
this was just a technique that I thought was worth trying (has worked several times in the past – but with some conversation preceding it. It failed this time, failed big. This was a trick from “pua” (in quotes because I think he’s more about money than sport) David DeAngelo.
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Yo Anon, you need to go back and re-read what z said about his Ma Dukes. This has been observed for decades, in hospitals & police departments, etc. Where do you think the term “Hunter’s Moon” comes from? Don’t knock it till you actually try it, son.
Lastly-ask yourself, what stopdown skeptic actually gets laid?
O
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On the real though: Women are by nature much more attuned to things like the movements of Spheres & the weather patterns on earth than we guys are, on average and all things being equal. This is why it’s tough to pull a gal when the weather’s rough, or when the Moon’s messed up somehow (New or otherwise weak by Phase, Void, etc.). The name of the Game is to get her to say “Yes!”; why make it harder than it needs to be? Work *with* Nature (hers), not against it.
As to the topic of hunting season, now that I think about it, I’ve had some of my best seductions happening in the dead of winter-what I like to call the Sweet Spot, btw Xmas & Valentine’s Day. It can be a very lonely time for a lot of Women, & if you play your cards right, you’re In like Flynn.
Now, earlier I threwaway something about Venus and Mars coming together soon. My brothers, don’t front on this. Its powerful stuff, I’ve been studying it for years. If you want to increase your chances of getting laid, take heed, and make haste. Seductions go a heck of a lot better when the Sexual Planets come together, along w/the aforementioned things.
Such things kinda get a bad rap in our community, but I say that’s because those who poo poo such things don’t know what the heck they’re talking about to begin with. Not only have I studied the matter, but my latest seduction-as have been the case w/virtually all the others over the past decade-bears this out. Back in Jan of this year, as I put the finishing touches on Operation Brown Sugah, Venus and Mars were not only in exaltation but they were coming together by aspect. She was over last weekend for her weekly deep orifice(s) probing and inspection. She’ll be back this weekend-which explains why you don’t hear from much around those times.
I’ll tell you what: since we have a hardy, intrepid group of Men here, let’s conduct an experiment, shall we? We’ll use the Honor system that’s standard in the Golf world, we’ll take you at your word-but you have to report when you tried to score at designated times when I’ve determined it would be very difficult to do so, versus those times when I said it was much easier, & let’s all report the results. Hell, I’m hoping even our fearless leader Roissy joins in for the fun.
Any takers?
The Obsidian
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The Obsidian –
Sounds a bit out there, but I’m down. Anything that can help us (intrepid group of Men) as a whole.
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Brad,
no offense, but that trial text is lame.
first off, you put yourself in a position of weakness. she doesn’t know who the text is from. unless she already liked you a lot, it’s a subtle strike against you…it almost has the same effect of going up to some girl you know but have never met and telling her you know who she is and shit like that.
you knowing her but her not knowing you, in a textual sense, gives her the upper hand. your “relations” with her are off to a rocky start.
As far as your text, she basically told you you didn’t make the cut. If she liked you *enough*, she would have saved your number and committed it to rote memory.
if you’re going to be aggressive, be aggressive from the start. beat her to the punch by saying something cocky/funny like “so, i’m cleaning out my phone book and am wondering if this number’s a keeper, who is this?” this will at least titillate her senses, although you still are in a position of weakness (i.e. cold calling). When she gives her name, tell her who you are as if you don’t know if she remembers you or not. Follow up with, “yeah i think i’ll hold on to your number then for safe keeping and/or drunk dialing purposes.” something stupid.
if she’s someone you have a chance of running into in the future, and possibly hooking up with, there’s no point in rushing it. you’ll see her out in the future and you’ve already built cheaply gained rapport with her instead of suffering through tea.
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Ok, so we have one brave man step up; thanks Brad. Let’s try 2 get say, a starting five, at least? After we confirm the squad, I’ll make my preparations.
We’re only looking for a Few Good Men…
O
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Are modern women liberated or just confused?
http://tinyurl.com/d56lo9
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MB: That article gives voice to a lot of issues I have, actually. Feel like I’m frigid and like the body I possess is worthless in anywhere nears its “natural” state. Guys are expecting — you are expecting from yourself — much more sexually, and you either make the mark or not. It feels pressured, uncomfortable, unachievable to fulfil both madonna and whore fantasies beautifully and well.
There’s always been therefore, an imbalance: it used to be towards the madonna side but now its towards the whore side.
The vast majority of women will not be able to have stretch-mark, scar-free and smooth skin with the right musculature as well as correct bum, waist & bust measurements as well as fair & fine hairs. They will not have the beautiful face with those big eyes, lush lips and appropriate cute noses. Even with surgery, not everything is correctable and most people don’t have the money or motivation. Guys are exposed to these standards: through their porn, through the media, through every freedom of information outlet. They expect it all, regardless of how worthless they might be themselves. It does also apply conversely: men are expected to perform too; although not to the same dissociated from reality extent. There’s a huge emphasis on sex, when — speaking in the long-term — physicality is a compliment to a solid relationship rather than it’s foundation. The way men speak about sex on here, there is not much meaning in the act except for the temporary pleasure it gives; which has to be repeated and repeated to be sustained. I personally would love men to have a sexbot, so that confusion about actually wanting women in any other way than for meaningless sex could be fairly eliminated. If there’re sexbots for men, there would also be ones available for women, so that they wouldn’t have to suffer from the deprivation of male sexual attention. A dramatic decrease if not eradication of false promises, unplanned pregnancies, deception, rejection bitterness, annoying frustrated teenage boys or STDS.
Summary: Perfection is expected more today in bed and in looks as well as a mistress of the house (cooking, cleaning, faithfulness, innocence), although women have little motivation for doing it (self-financing, decreased quality & commitment of average male approaching her, frequent lack of pleasure in sex, expectation of the relationship being about sex and not companionship/teamwork).
If men have nothing to offer except assuaging loneliness and if a quality one rarely offers even that, then it’s difficult to find a point to all of it. It’s the natural human state to want a partner and procreate, however, and so against all common sense, a woman will have to surrender to that urge even if all she does is abuse him for a little while then leave.
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Marvin is turning, just like it did last time this year. It’s good in the winter, but in the summer the g’town/arlington crew descends on it.
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I observed this phenomenon at work the other day. I call it the freeing of the winter racks.
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You know what totally sucks? When ugly old women get it into their Alzheimerish heads that it’s “trendy” and “youthful” to have hideous Bald Eagles.
[Note: I left out the “pedophilic” part because it would be utterly ludicrous in this case]
Peter
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re: my own question about straightup nuke the flake text game – i answered it myself. since everyone is obviously curious:
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0410.00_410.00.html
New York Penal Law Section 410.00 – Seizure and forfeiture of equipment used in photographing, filming, producing, manufacturing, projecting or distributing pornographic still or motion pictures
Considering how many phones I’ve run through over the years, it seems a small price to pay.
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“Bhetti,
it’s difficult to find a point to all of it”
Not sure their really is a point lol but if you have to be here might as well make it the best time you can.
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wow cannon nyc loves to sieze shit. Also warning when travelling to nyc do not get a dui or they may try to take your car.
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Course hell I havn’t been to the states in a while it may be all of them now huh.
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Bhetti — the article was nonsense.
Just like Cesar Milan preaches for dogs, humans also need “rules, boundaries, and limitations.”
Women are neither sexually liberated or confused. What they are is totally free to express themselves sexually, without ANY rules, boundaries, and limitations, and just like with the dogs Cesar Milan is called in to rehabilitate, human beings of either gender do not do well when there are no rules.
Which really, there are not.
A dirty little secret about men: most would trade an impossibly beautiful model for the earthy, imperfect, but attractive girl next door. Just like what women say they want (PC platitudes) and what they do are two different things.
Look at who generally is popular with men in various “Lad” magazines (Maxim, FHM, etc.) and in movies/TV. It’s the idealized girl next door. NOT the bombshell (which would have described men in 1955). That popularity (of the girl next door) is also telling you something about men. Most cannot get her, and thus the idealized “ordinary but attractive girl” who will commit and not stray has better appeal than the sexpot.
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O. Henry whote a great short story about this – the Merry Month of May, it was called.
http://www.online-literature.com/o_henry/1029/
He wrote 100 years ago in NYC, maybe spring came later there.
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Sorry, I was going to post the following exerpt, but pressed “submit” too quick. there goes:
In May Cupid shoots blindfolded — millionaires marry stenographers; wise professors woo white-aproned gum-chewers behind quick-lunch counters; schoolma’ams make big bad boys remain after school; lads with ladders steal lightly over lawns where Juliet waits in her trellissed window with her telescope packed; young couples out for a walk come home married; old chaps put on white spats and promenade near the Normal School; even married men, grown unwontedly tender and sentimental, whack their spouses on the back and growl: “How goes it, old girl:”
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whiskey:
“A dirty little secret about men: most would trade an impossibly beautiful model for the earthy, imperfect, but attractive girl next door. Just like what women say they want (PC platitudes) and what they do are two different things.”
would this man be happy and desire to remain faithful to her for the rest of his life? given man’s history and his hormone-induced urges, i doubt it.
i see so many dead-men-walking, with seemingly nice wives. droves of these zombies cannot be fully explained by feminism, female-skewed laws, no-fault divorces, rapacious alimony, etc.
as men, we have to realize that a lot of times, we’re just not content, no matter what we have going for us.
some of the arguments on this board make it seem like we are *completely* without control. this is not true. i have a feeling many of us are miserable in potentially great relationships because of human’s nature to value opportunity costs more than they should be valued. men especially, value the single life, freedom from relationship, other women, and all of those things much more than their intrinsic value. as such, we are much more miserable than we really should be.
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“Are modern women liberated or just confused?”
My short answer to that, Michael, is that modern “women” are farked in the head, and yes I’m aware that this is a gross generalisation.
The longer answer is that too many years supping at the poisoned chalice that is feminism/cultural marxism has dumbed down their critical faculties to the extent that modern Western women are unable to get their heads around the differences in how men and women actually operate.
For years they’re surrounded by visual and aural media that reinforce this idea that women rule the world and are the strong, tough ones (sorry – still pissed at the gender reversals in Wall E of all things), and think that because they feel something should be a certain way, then it should be.
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Whiskey and Bhetti are both pretty close to the mark I reckon; just coming from different sides of the gender divide.
would this man be happy and desire to remain faithful to her for the rest of his life? given man’s history and his hormone-induced urges, i doubt it.
i see so many dead-men-walking, with seemingly nice wives. droves of these zombies cannot be fully explained by feminism, female-skewed laws, no-fault divorces, rapacious alimony, etc.
as men, we have to realize that a lot of times, we’re just not content, no matter what we have going for us.
Chuck, the idea is to make the alternative worse, which is why we used to have such strong social mechanisms to prevent the sexually “liberated” behaviour we have today.
At the moment, marriage is not the haven it used to be seen as, for all the reasons you mentioned.
Monogamous marriage is the foundation of a successful civilisation – women get security, support and boundaries, men get their very own mate to breed with and offspring get two parents who are committed to their survival.
Unfortunately, we’ve still got human nature to deal with, and when the foundations go out the window it all goes somewhat pearshaped.
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goldenseed — i’m not giving it away. i don’t want the losers on here infiltrating it.
but i will throw you desperate lads a bone and say the Rock and Roll Hotel is pretty sweet on the weekends. or from the owners of Wonderland, the newish Looking Glass Lounge on Georgia Ave.
and it’s not Local 16, although i do dig that place. Marvin sucks. it hasn’t been cool in a year, but yet people seem to think it still is. and St Ex is only good on non-weekend nights.
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Bhetti, a response:
So men expect perfection and mindless fucking . So what? The female gender has proven, since Betty Freidan since put her sub-normal-intelligent pen to paper, that it deserves nothing better.
Today, men live in the following world: If a man impregnates a woman, she can kill his child, and he cannot stop her; conversely, if he wants her to murder that child, he has no say; if he spends any significant amount of time raising a child, and finds out it is not his, he must still raise the child. If a woman hits a man, it is humorous; if he hits her, it is criminal. If he leaves her, he will be sued into oblivion, and tossed in jail.
We live in a world where our wives most likely will not virgins, but instead will have been throughly holed out by other men, often at the insistence of her gfs, who want her to play the field. Most women insist on being fucked by only hot “alpha” males who violate them wildly, but upon marriage become frigid, cold, missionary only women, except should they (often) cheat on their spouse. Her loyalty is not to him, her man, but to her orgasm, to her self.
Women are not taught to have children or give sex to their husbands when he desires it at night, in bed, when he is washed, clean, and horny. No, it is all about when “she” is in the mood, and his desires are meaningless. And woe be to the man who finds solace in the arms of another woman–he is a cheating selfish spawn, and how dare he complain about her frigidness! She’s not frigid, she got gang banged by four bruthas in her sorority house in college!
Women are not taught to take care of house and home. Instead, she must “have a career,” reinforcing her materialistic nature. When she naturally falls behind her husband in career accomplishments, she whines to NOW or some other silly feminist organization, who pass bills to “correct” her lack of skills and give her positions she doesn’t deserve. All the while, home and hearth are distant memories, banished by illogical cult-like conspiracy theories of “entrapping” women.
And yet, despite the man not wanting this, he will be expected to cook and clean to *her* standards when he is perfectly happy with more banal meals and less cleanliness. In all places she falls short, he must artificially raise her up; and yet in all places he falls short, he is forced to her level.
In these circumstances, with women proving to be self-centered, child-murdering, shrewish, shrill, illogical, frigid bitches, it is no wonder men turn to fantasy worlds of perfect looking, sex-starved females, since the only moments of pleasure he has with his worthless wife or gf is his sub-par orgasm in her hollow vagina.
And let’s not get started on women enforcing some societal standard that men are only supposed to date women “at appropriate ages,” meaning men, who have long found teenage girls and early 20s girls attractive, are barred by both silly laws (17 in NY) and societal pressure (“That party is for 20-somethigns only, you’re pathetic if you go and hit on a youngster”), are stuck with women their own age, who respect them less, obey them less, and are less likely to bear him children. Bonus: by keeping this young women from settling down too early, it allows them to be holed out and begat another older generation of miserable harpy bitches.
I’ve said it before: if women want men to stop demanding perfection from their nature-made bodies, stop demanding we ignore our natural desires for female nature. Act like a woman, not like a man. Cook, clean, give it up, take care of yourself, and marry young and have children young. Don’t sleep around. Find a nice older man who wants you and you can admire and look up to. Because in the alternative, where women have devolved the world into a pathetic rat race of hell, men will simply refuse to run it for you.
Your complains, Bhetti, fall on deaf ears.
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@lurker,
It’s hard to scroll past your post above without response. I’ll keep it simple. Your idealized view of a woman’s role is truncated to a brief 15-20 years of her life– age 20-35 or 40. That’s how long she will tend to her children and home. What exactly do you idealize for a woman’s next 40 years????????
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anony, please. it would be 25-30 years, considering she would not be limiting sex and nto killing any unwanted children. And it her post-child raising, she and her husband would do what they would always do in the past: cluck for grandkids, retire (since he was older), travel the world, and take care of family.
if she wanted a job, fine, but not if her wifely duties would suffer. Like John Wayne said, he would be supportive if his wife wanted to be president, *so long as supper was on the able when he got home from work.*
Bite me, feminst.
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fuck all this Sociobabble. I was schooled in it. meh
Simplicity reigns in my thoughts.
Men have been pussified, but not to the extent of relinquishing our best weapon: clamming the fuck up when nobody listens.
Still on my primal, simplicity tack – I love nilk’s ass. I want a tour of the Ausssie Nat’l Shrine to AC/DC – we’ll meet in the Men Down Under exhibit and I will see how that whopper looks with my Vegemite-glooped handprints smeared all over it.
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Time for real talk: My libido raises a few days before and the first couple days of ttotm. I know I’m not the only one.
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On what planet are older men forbidden from dating or marrying or even just randomly fucking gals nearly half their ages?
I was 21, and my husband 34 when we got married; not a whiff of disapproval lingered in the air. A friend of mine married a man twenty years her senior. Nobody fussed about that, either.
That said, I understand the laws against grown men having sex with (generally naive) sixteen-year-old girls.
Whether we like it or not, our state and federal governments have assumed the role of fatherly protector/disciplinarian, and thus while that cute unsupervised fatherless 16-year-old may be willing, you can bet that her “Daddy” isn’t going to smile down so beneficiently on your horndoggin.
This is different than when?
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omw, please.
“I was 21, and my husband 34 when we got married; not a whiff of disapproval lingered in the air. A friend of mine married a man twenty years her senior. Nobody fussed about that, either. ”
—right. I’m sure no one clucked about a may-december romance. I’m sure no gfs gossip about robbing the cradle. right.
“That said, I understand the laws against grown men having sex with (generally naive) sixteen-year-old girls.”
—16 year old girls are perfectly capable of having consensual sex with an older man. They are sexually viable. Older women instituted these laws because you can’t compete witha 16 year old, and you worry she’ll worship a man better than you.
“This is different than when?”
—human history.
omw, kindly stfu.
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“On what planet are older men forbidden from dating or marrying or even just randomly fucking gals nearly half their ages? ”
—in the good ol’ US of A, where you societal pressure forces men to have “age appropriate” partners–except if they’re older women.
And forbidden? How about the entire genre of “barely legal” porn to give you a clue.
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OMW: that’s very close to the ages my wife and I married at.
The only “disapproval” I got was in the form of a barely-concealed forlorn look on the face of my very unpleasant and militant-feminist co-worker.
Also, some of my friends’ wives who are closer to my age seemed mildly disconcerted when they first met her. But that’s one or two of my buddies’ fault for acting visibly animated in front of my young then-girlfriend.
My view on the age of consent thing: you wanna marry a girl 14-17? Knock yourself out, with her parent’s permission if she’s 14-15.
You wanna shag one? Sure, so long as the law formally allows her father to beat the crap out of you, with help if necessary.
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right. I’m sure no one clucked about a may-december romance. I’m sure no gfs gossip about robbing the cradle. right.
Lurker, is that the worst that “society” can throw at ya? You mean there is no police cruiser pulling up to your house and your boss isn’t giving you your walking papers for dating a 21-year-old?
In the ecstatic words of Yakoff Smirnoff: “Whatt a Countrrree!”
What are you so upset about? If you have a young girlfriend who is over the age of consent, who gives a damn about resentful clucking hens and jealous betas? Their noize should motivate you to rub your 21 y.o. in their faces even more!
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If feminists could, they’d institute laws where a man could only marry a woman his age or older. No exceptions.
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PA:
“Lurker, is that the worst that “society” can throw at ya? You mean there is no police cruiser pulling up to your house and your boss isn’t giving you your walking papers for dating a 21-year-old? ”
—Look, we spend a lot of time here discussing how mass media and society reinforce the notion that we are supposed to be “beta” through movies/TV shows/ other methods. Why is it so idiotic to think the propaganda extends to thisarea , and is successful? I can’t tell you how many movie reviews talk offhandedly about age-appropriate mating partners.
To Wit: the director of Secretary, in his interview on the DVD, states that he was pressured by the studio to make the younger woman forsake the older lawyer for her “age appropriate” boyfriend. The director refused, and ran into trouble for it.
“If you have a young girlfriend who is over the age of consent, who gives a damn about resentful clucking hens and jealous betas?”
—Women,as roissy points out, are far more sensitive to social cues than men. That’s why to us, a hot girl is a hot girl, but to a woman, its how a man acts, and *social proof* that determines his fuckability. The entire age appropriate meme is about forcing women to forsake happy lives with older men for younger men they respect less and look up to less.
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The reason why it infuriates me is because it is a feminist-led meme that preys upon women’s insecurities, not men’s. Those they can’t outlaw, they control with social stigma.
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Lurker, I’m with you on feminists. I am very sensitive to the evils of political correctness but I still think you’re overstating society’s problems with older men dating younger women.
Speaking of films, if you wanna see a great classic comedy on a future dystopian world run by feminists, check out the Polish movie “Seksmisja” (1984). It’s friggin’ hilarious. The English title is “Sexmission.” It’s in IMDB.com. Maybe it’s available on Netflicks dubbed or with English subtitiles.
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Social stigma plays a useful role. It represents the collective wisdom of a society, esp. if it derives from the elder members.
In the context of older/younger marriages, my own sympathies would fall to my older physician peers whom I’ve seen go through this. It just doesn’t work out long-term. They end up older, with one more alimony to pay.
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It just doesn’t work out long-term. They end up older, with one more alimony to pay.
that’s just because they have no game.
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Brad–
Don’t be a complete idiot. Have some dignity.
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It just doesn’t work out long-term. They end up older, with one more alimony to pay.
LTR Rule No. 1: never marry a girl who doesn’t love you
LTR Rule No. 2: keep her in love with you through LTR game.
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“but I still think you’re overstating society’s problems with older men dating younger women. ”
—I don’t, but I have not reached the “too old” point quite yet (which I perceive as 30 for most men—that will send a woman’s buzzers off).
anony:
“Social stigma plays a useful role. It represents the collective wisdom of a society, esp. if it derives from the elder members. ”
—correction: only if it derives from wiser, older members as a whole. The social stigma attached here is derived from cheap, man-hating harridans desperate to validate their feminist illogical culthink BAMN.
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No, lurker, I am telling you, nobody gave a shite about our ages, at least nobody who mattered.
Excess concern for “social messages” will get you pretty much nowhere. Who cares what some Hollywood freak thinks? Turn off the freakin TV.
Girls don’t care that much about the opinions of other girls, either; female friendships are notoriously fickle and prone to petering out when one or the other of them gets serious about a man.
Dads are the ones who find the idea of some punk like Roissy fucking their teenaged daughters most disturbing; plenty of childless “feminists” wail that social control over the Autonomous Sexuality of teenaged girls reeks of Teh Patriarchy, and they aren’t entirely wrong on that score.
(They ARE retarded to suppose that it’s bad, though.)
My dad would have beat my husband’s ass for trying to hook up with me at sixteen, when he was 29. Or fifteen, when he was 28!
By the time I was 20, it was fine; they drank together after the wedding. LOL.
Go forth and find yourself a cute domestic-minded girl of nineteen or twenty!
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Lurker
There is absolutely no question that those influences and generated pressures do exist and strongly.
However in this area particularly they’re playing a VERY weak hand.
The point PA’s making and I endorse (and live as well) is to man up and ignore or rather flout these messages. In this area in particular it isn’t hard to do.
Guys. You should all aim for gf’s that are about 10 years younger than you are, and at least 5. 5 years younger is bare minimum. More than 13 or so you need to be bringing something pretty special, usually in the high status and achievement area. But 7 years younger or 10 for most guys = sweet.
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Anyway, “May-December?” I thought that phrase only applied to, say, the 55-year old dude marrying a girl younger than most of his grown kids.
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“plenty of childless “feminists” wail that social control over the Autonomous Sexuality of teenaged girls reeks of Teh Patriarchy, and they aren’t entirely wrong on that score. ”
—-lol, that’s where you’re wrong, omv. The feminist line has always been that teenage girls–pre-college—are always taken advantage of by older men.
That’s why feminists are demanding that these women-teachers-on-lucky-teenage-boys cases get the book thrown at them, too; they understand that if they admit that the guys just are having a ball, and the teachers shouldn’t be punished, then they’d be advocating for a double standard. Since their little brains can’t handle that, they’d have to admit that teenage girls can take an older man.
Feminist understand, though, that a young woman with an older man, especially fi a teenager, will be drawn to settling with him, since he’s the msot exciting/experienced man she will ever be attracted to.
Feminism is about keeping girls as far away from men they admire and obey and respect as possible, hoping that they can be driven from marriage/family, and, for some , hopefully into lesbiansim with a gym teacher.
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omv, in today’s fem-speak world, any man over 4 years is an automatic cardle robbing may-december man.
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doug: “The point PA’s making and I endorse (and live as well) is to man up and ignore or rather flout these messages. In this area in particular it isn’t hard to do. ”
—my point was this is aimed at *women* not *men.* Read how many feminist blogs bitch—and I do mean *bitch*—about how older female actresses play an actor’s mother instead of love interest, or that George Clooney only dates 20 year old cocktail waitresses and women more than 10 years younger than him.
Women are trying to influence women, not men.
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Aw, lurker, why do you care enough about feminism to even give a crap what any of them think? Seriously, bud.
They’re only as powerful as you let them become in your own life.
Feminists aren’t the representatives some sort of monolithic power structure– they are easily splintered and only flimsily organized. By and large, they’re too ugly to be successful women, and too stupid to be honorary men, right?
If you can’t compete with that, I can’t help you.
but the age-of-consent laws, in my view, are a formalized version of Daddy sitting in the parlor with his shotgun.
Maybe the second version of courtship would be more honest, but it certainly wouldn’t be “fairer.”
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omw
December in this context properly means approaching death. It’s the 65yo rich guy. Rich because no girl would otherwise ever consider it.
May July is really what we’re talking about, and indeed what you did.
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Lurker, you’re full of shit. Dating younger women is pretty easy, provided you look half-decent and have a steady job and aren’t an inveterate whiner.
Probably it’s easier to look like a serious contender in your thirties than it is in your twenties.
The vast majority of attractive women don’t sit around reading feminist blogs, for pete’s sake.
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Lurker
They know, many instinctually and bare consciously, but others and the leadership fully consciously, that once one double standard is admitted and fully enshrined in law, then others are sure to follow. Because, well, wait for it ………..men and women are fundamentally different in many respects that matter a lot.
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Lurker —
Lurker —
If you’re a lot older as I am, your target might be 30 somethings, rather than a more “age appropriate” women. In that case look for divorcees. Widows would be better on average but are mighty scarce. Divorcees vary as to the reason. In general they’re a better bet than 30s and never married. The later are virtually guaranteed either asexual or far far more likely, very high mileage.
Actually those that claim to have been too busy with their careers are highly likely to be born again good girls. Perhaps born that very morning in fact.
Unlike men, who actually have to put some time and effort into getting even casually laid, women can just go out of an evening and do it. Starting up a fling if they drop the choosiness a bit to get the horniness driven job done isn’t a whole lot harder.
It’s only LTR’s with attractive to them men which are hard for hottish women.
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It’s only LTR’s with attractive to them men THAT are hard for hottish women.
[Jeeesh.]
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lurker —
Where feminism is really powerful is where it’s managed to create laws which are hard and in some cases nearly impossible to avoid (child support=alimony law), or require major life decisions to do so (not having kids).
In other areas feminism has created very unjust and overreaching laws (sexual harrassment law), but it is possible, nearly always, to sidestep it.
Domestic violence law is intermediate. Yeah it usually won’t bite, but you might be very unpleasantly suprised when you break up with a particularly volatile sort of woman, depending on who some of her friends are, and thus whether she knows just how unfairly balanced the law really is.
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omv, being the little bitch she is:
“why do you care enough about feminism to even give a crap what any of them think? Seriously, bud.”
—I care when its ruined the current state of America. Exhibit A: Obama.
“Feminists aren’t the representatives some sort of monolithic power structure– they are easily splintered and only flimsily organized.”
—that’s why 50% of all workers are women, why there is abortion on demand, why affirmative action favors women, and why I have to hear about “date rape” and tBTN and sexual harassment at each new organization I join.
Someone give this woman a clue upside her head.
“The vast majority of attractive women don’t sit around reading feminist blogs, for pete’s sake.”
–No, they’re just indoctrinated in college and in health clinics and in highs chool and movies and tv shows with feminist/p.c. bullshit.
but thanks for playing.
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Doug, I think we agree on many points. What are we disagreeing about?
I’m just arguing with omv, who reminds me of a female version of JapaneseCity-FounderofChristianity-HandReadyToPunch in many ways.
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In scandinavia we have something we call “spring feelings”. We feel happier and have more lust. BUT some norwegian scientists have found that it’s only the female part of the population who have spring feelings, they have it in april/may. We men have our top in the midle of august. They say it has somthing to do with the sun and hormones (in the winter the nights are long).
The reseasch does not say we dont have any lust the rest of the year, it just say when the people who lives in scandinavia have the top when it comes to lust!
Have a link but it’s in norwegian
http://www.yr.no/nyheter/1.6528839
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Well, Kano, August is huge on Fire Island….
I’m just saying. lol
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Cafe Saint Ex for pick-up? You gotta be kidding me. It’s mostly people who arrive and leave in little groups and stand around and talk the whole time with the people they came with.
Dupont is still where the action is.
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Lurker, if you are really all that, no amount of boring health-clinic lecturing or stale teevee programming is going to make a girl keep her mitts off you.
Maybe you just aren’t all that yet. Whose fault is that, though?
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Oh, lordy, lurker, not a woman alive who could soothe your angst today. LOL.
Doesn’t someone here have a moody fifteen-year-old daughter they could fed-ex to him overnight?
Good luck, little brother. I mean that.
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Guys
I completely agree with this from PA
However this biblical text requres commentary so you all properly understand it.
The word “love” as it’s used by women in the US these days means “I want to be able to rely upon your loyalty in a relationship. I can, can’t I?”
I’ll make this quick and simple (I know, unusual for me).
Substitute the word “adore” for love.
The PA’s holy text requires no further gloss.
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Oh, and you’ll find it VASTLY easier to find a young girl with low mileage to ADORE you than a more *experienced* and older one, of the sort from whom Roissy has today “declared his love”.
QED
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Lurker —
Actually Lurker in this one area you and rest of us should actually thank Feminism.
There are after all a good number single or once again single and successful and otherwise alphaish mid thirties guys who have bought the message and date “age appropriate women” about their own age.
But for these messages you’d have even more competition.
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Lisa
The only reason you haven’t gotten responses is that we all know that. Girls are hornier when they’re ovulating, or more exactly, when if the f*ck bareback they’re most likely to get preggers. The hornies begin a bit before ovulation for that reason. The sperm lingers a bit.
The rest of the month your more likely to appreciate dad types as opposed to cads.
Ain’t nature grand?
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oh omv, such a woman.
“Oh, and you’ll find it VASTLY easier to find a young girl with low mileage to ADORE you than a more *experienced* and older one, of the sort from whom Roissy has today “declared his love”.”
—lmao rofl. right, I’m sure you’ve got 18 year olds lining up to marry you after all the indoctrination of playing the field has set in. And fewer cougars. right.
“There are after all a good number single or once again single and successful and otherwise alphaish mid thirties guys who have bought the message and date “age appropriate women” about their own age.”
—-they’re not alpaish. They’re betas.
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omv:
“Oh, lordy, lurker, not a woman alive who could soothe your angst today.”
–certainly not you, you illogical c-rag.
go back to your other sN, its easier to keep track of your inanity there.
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I think the main reason the older guy/younger woman isn’t even commoner is institutional, not ideological.
Young people spend most of their waking hours crammed together with same-age peers, forming romantic attachments there that don’t necessarily hold up once everyone hits the Real World.
If it’s true that men and women don’t always want the same things in life, it’s truer that they tend to want the same things eventually, just at different stages.
My first serious boyfriend/husband drove me nuts because he wasn’t ready to settle down, really, but he also didn’t want the hassle of playing the field.
He wanted the best of both worlds, (steady easy sex, no “fun-killing fatherhood”) which pretty much meant the worst of both worlds for me– sticking by a Nice Guy while my reproductive life ticked away before mine eyes!
At 23, he was still trying to decide Who He Was. I realize this is complex for men, but who really has time for it? That whole process can drag on till they’re 30!
The older man I’m married to now was honestly ready for family life.
No hemming and hawing and putting off having children “for just a few years…” while I was sitting on my prime eggs!
Downside, of course, is that I’m likely to outlive him, but I plan to take up pottery and jewelry-making in my widowhood. And maybe babysit some great-grandbabies. 😉
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lurker:
To summarise your thoughts: You seem to be mourning the same thing I do? I was talking about my gender, you are talking about yours, but the cause is the same. Thanks for the lack of sympathy just for the sake of it, I personally try to hate gender inequalities either way. Injustices to men generally piss me off too, and I won’t let being annoyed at the gender for hormonal reasons change that. You’re free to direct your sympathies where you please. We may blame the other gender for these things happening, but we all know its due to movements which have taken hold for one reason or another: resulting in distorted family values, relationship instability and damaging sexual behaviours.
According to you, those women who have no talent for the home but for something of benefit to society need to remain spinsters and leave you alone. I can’t agree with women not having the option and qualifications for a career. Depending on someone else for all your resources without a fallback seems ridiculous and leads to all these gold digging scenarios (Arranged marriage societies: first question, what does he do? How much does he make?). When there are no young children involved, there isn’t that much to do at home thanks to the wonders of modern technology. You get dangerous, depressive boredom and discontent with the relationship especially if it’s the partner that insists on it. I support freedom but I don’t think freedom for women is imitating all the traditional failings of men, without emphasis on their triumphs. Both men and women are increasingly losing the perspective that your family comes before your career; the traditional belief is that you do it for their sakes as well as yours.
As far as I’ve observed, and these are the girls I know: they are asked and in fact demand of themselves to be perfection both in the home and otherwise; I’ve noticed they either can be really good in bed or really good at other things. It becomes difficult to be all of the above and the perfectionistic drive has to be enormous to succeed, resulting in neuroses that men hate. Men have the same internal pressures now, although I don’t know if it’s to the same extent & I see more men giving up at both. I will freely declare I am very biased on that observation.
That’s also harmful and dividing the tasks across the genders was much easier. I’ve seen families succeeding quite well in both cases of with or despite the traditional divisions of their roles, regardless of the generalisations we’re both making here.
Lurker, you have to realise I’m complaining because even with doing everything on your little advice list, the results aren’t satisfactory and it doesn’t change anything. We live in a world where men can and will expect it all, and a woman will be victimised for leeching off them by staying at home as well as not leeching off them but not being sexually perfect by not staying at home. My mother has done everything you said: she cooks, she cleans, she takes care of herself, she married a man much older than herself, her engagement party was also her graduation day, she stayed at home, she had a kid within months of her marriage and to this day has not even been near a man who is not her husband, despite talking once or twice about it now when it is too late. I have seen this happen to a hell of a lot of Arabic women and despite all their botoxing and Sex & the City research courtesy of moving into The West, their husbands still refuse to give them any love, attention or sex. They provide money (depending on his generosity, with resistance and a lot of complaining) and speak to them discontentedly about the [spoiled] children, and that is it. A lot of these women are unhappy and on antidepressants. I lived in a household where my parents were under the same roof but in different rooms, married in name only. Your magic formula did not work.
If you think that is the only feasible model for happiness between men & women, then I’ll just skip the unhappiness, stick to my career and give up on men now, since I’m more than likely to imitate my mother and father rather than someone else’s success using it.
Sixteen is the age of consent here in the UK (Oh no, tidal wave of American PUAs, watch out!), for sex that is. No marriage without parental permission until 18.
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omw
Nothing to quarrel with there babe. Wisdom.
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doug: She’s talking about during menstruation, not ovulation, as far as I can tell.
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Kano
Just to set the record straight about Fire Island.
There are two communities on Fire Island (Cherry Grove and The Pines) which have made the whole island famous far and wide. They’re the ONLY two communities on the island, of many, that are like that. Each community has a name and a very separate identity. In case you’re interested, The Pines is much more upscale gay than Cherry Grove, with much nicer houses etcl, though the later is supposed to have “rougher action”.
You need to understand that except at the far western end of this barrier beach island, which is only about 1/2 mile wide in most places, there are no roads, only bike and walking paths. Stuff is hauled using wagons, at least at the place I spent a summer month. I think the grocery store had a little van they used to offload stores from the ferry. Further, between exclusively summer communities (there are maybe 10 on the island) there are often locked gates with only a few people having the keys, and between others there are thick groves of VERY hard to penetrate torn bushes.
The summer community I described where I lost my virginity was on fire island. I don’t think there was a single gay person in that community. If there was they were DEEPLY in the closet. Night and day different from the Pines, which was next door, except through 1/2 mile or so of impenetrable thorn bush. Well you could get there via the beach no doubt but there was essentially zero cross flow. The way people got to each of these places was via ferry from the mainland. The ferries went to one community and one only, then returned. (On the other side though there was a wilder, much less family oriented, hetero place that was rumoured among us teens to have a lot of swingers. No idea if that was true. But it did have a wild raucuous bar that would serve pretty much anyone who’s head came up over the bar. THAT we did sneak into. Some, to do it. After all, if there are girls all over in a hugely favorable ratio, what’s the point of getting drunk in a bar?
Actually the whole island was originally a place where people could have modest summer cottages that weren’t too expensive, but still hang out with similar relatively “classy” well educated, etc. people. It never attracted the super rich.
Now you know something more about Fire Island.
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Bhetti
Far more sensible. Of course 16 is also school leaving age for those taking O levels (the non college track) over there isn’t it?
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Bhetti
That is a fascinating post. Thank you for it. I will address it, hopefully with some understanding and sensitivity, and no doubt ask some questions too. Not right now if you’ll forgive me. But I will. Watch this space.
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thx, D.
really, it seems to me that many societal changes are driven more by shifting technology and demography than by formal belief systems, which can become unfashionable in a hurry if they cease to be useful.
Anti-feminists see the bad hand of feminism everywhere, but mostly this is because many variants of “feminism” mesh pretty well with affluent, contemporary Information Age American life.
It’s pretty easy, and maybe even somewhat necessary, for folks to subscribe to some sort of belief in gender equality when so many work office jobs and live in a city with no apparent need for lots of breeders.
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Yep, technically school-leaving age as well, though probably being raised to A-levels (which will be at 18) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7080699.stm (takes ages for bills etc to be brought into effect; 2015 or something’s the proposed date).
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I mean, like Bhetti says, if women are of no real use for their intelligence or talent, separate from their (shortlived) raw sex appeal, and if we don’t need every woman on deck to have five or ten (or even two) babies apiece, then what constructive purpose DO they have in life?
Some amount of feminist belief is basically inevitable in a low-fertility society. The rest is just aesthetics.
Without childbearing, there is not much difference between me at 65, widowed after forty years’ marriage, and the DC slut who finds herself alone after forty years of working the treadmill of one-night-stands, right?
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omw
I would like pretty much all feminist laws, or if you like laws which address gender issues passed since 1970 to be taken off the books. What we had before was plenty. Then get rid of all forms of affirmative action for women (and everyone else too but that’s a separate issue). Except for abortion that is. I know we’ll disagree about that. So be it. (Hell I really don’t have that much problem with infanticide, done early enough, just to shock you. Neither have a whole lot of high achieving human societies, such as the classical Greeks.)
Then I’d like the media (I’m talking the entertainment media, the news media is pretty largely irrelevant on these issues) to celebrate playfully (rather than brutishly) macho husbands and pretend there are a lot more of them than there really are, as a sort of jump start. I’m not talking action adventure land, I’m talking sitcoms aimed at women.
On that I’d just like the truth instead of so many lies. Mentally men and women are pretty close to equal anywhere near the mean where the vast majority of people fall. Women tend to be a little better verbally, men a little better at math. Women are naturally better at repetitive tasks and can far more easily self discipline themselves to do them, and other similar things. They tend to be very good at bureaucratic things, and yes many kinds of sales things as well. Men are much more creative however and much, much better at thnking outside the box. As well at the far right tail of mental abilities, men far outnumber women. That goes for the verbal side of intelligence too, but especially the math side.
As a practical matter, if society just stopped trying so hard to force equality=same result, and let the chips fall where they will I’d be a lot happier. Though actually I could make a good case for affirmative action for men in the workplace if either gender is going to get it. Why? It’s obvious. Women are happier if their man has higher status and income than they do. I’m not saying happiness is impossible without that,but it’s harder, and works for only some. So, if we’re going to keep a bedrock institution or principle of Western society, monogamy rather than polygamy intact and in fact want to revive its faultering fortunes, it might be worth considering.
However, I’d never want to go back to simply not ALLOWING highly talented and career minded and driven women to rise as far in whatever profession or business as the can and want to.
What I would like is for that to be more of an exception case, rather than what every woman of any talent or ability MUST strive for to the detriment of her family life (and that of her family), else she’s a failure or anyway a more than a little bit of a let down, among modern women.
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OMW —
You’ll not see me saying that.
I and most (if not all) of the men on here who’d like to see a different balance between work and family in modern women and certainly in the guiding propaganda they receive, want a different balance, not some absolute or nearly absolute exclusion, or anything like that. I like there being women at work and wouldn’t want it any other way.
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Well, that’s the problem; if you allow/encourage intelligent, career-minded women to rise to the top, with all the bennies that accrue, you’re setting up a situation wherein more people want to do something similar, and you pretty much return homemaking, etc etc to the low-brow “boring” tier it occupied for the latter third of the 20th century.
DINKs rule, minivans drool.
Forcing intelligent, affluent women back home seems much likelier to have the effect of making marriage, monogamy, and the whole freakin’ 1950s shebang actually look good to young women.
“I want to be like THAT.”
(not that this is going to happen, mind you. LOL.)
But societies decide what they want out of women, and we’ve decided we want our best and brightest women in the workforce, our dullest churning out cubicle fodder, and the rest somewhere in the middle.
We have created a situation in which Striving For a Better Life means abandoning “traditional femininity.” Don’t like it? Well, me neither.
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this is like watching retards fuck.
get a room you two
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oops, I meant, “DINKs rule, soccer moms drool.” eh, same idea.
Homemaking is getting to be “hip” among some of the younger gals I know, though; I’m 27 and have never once sensed social disapproval for not working outside the home.
Not like my mom did in the 80s and early 90s, though she had as many kids as close together as I do. And homeschooled ’em!
She can tell some hair-raising stories about brain-dead yuppies making moronic assumptions.
Return to patriarchy, I suppose.
But shit, now that I’ve gotten off the career track, I really don’t WANT to get back on it at 30 or 35; I’ll be stuck working some shitty entry-level job and being forever bossed around by some fresh-faced college grad ten, twenty years my junior.
Even I have a modicum of matronly dignity. LOL.
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OMW
Personally I think that’s just what you should do when the kids are old enough.
You won’t be the only one; though it would be easier in lots of ways if more women followed that path.
You won’t be in an entry level job for long if you chose where you work wisely; i.e. if there are ready ways up given your level of education. Not long at all. Like a few months or less. You want some upward motion to be where you start out rather than having to jump employers, cause it can be way faster that way. People can spot the ability to judge wisely and take responsibility, if they have a need for those things further up the ladder.
You could also get more education if that’s an issue. Maybe the online kind since money is an issue and so is time. You could jump start that before you’re able to start something full time.
Going back to work after an extended absence in your mid to late 40s is much tougher, because then people will often assume you’ll have “learning new tricks” issues, and especially issues with reporting to people much younger — and they’ll also often be right. But in your early to mid thirties gf it shouldn’t be that hard at all. Hell a lot of guys these days pretty much don’t get going doing much of anything until about 30.
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Firepower–
Who the hell are you? Shut TF up.
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OMW–
and?
And you’ve completely messed with my head. Here I was thinking you were in your mid to late 40’s at least, possibly 50’s, and now I’ve got to picture a 27 yo next to “OMW” “Old Married Woman”???
How can you be 27 and say “gals”? Don’t you know that’s illegal?
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Eh, but really? Why would your average 35 year old mom take a part-time job or start an undergrad degree, assuming her husband is finally hitting his peak earning years and the young’uns still have to be picked up from school at 3 PM and dinner still has to be on the table at 5:30?
You’re just adding a host of new time stresses to the family for a drop in the bucket, money-wise.
Women who didn’t drop out of the workforce in the first place are subject to the same pressures, of course, but they’ve by then earned enough seniority to make it all seem worthwhile day in and day out.
Feminists have been floating the concept you’re pushing here for years now, though. Sounds nice in theory, I agree.
I don’t see it gaining a whole lot of traction on the ground, for a lot of complex reasons, though.
Plenty of older women do go back to work retail or something similarly flexible and low-status, but it’s not anything a young woman aspires to.
And teenagers often need a highly present Meanie Mom figure more than toddlers do. LOL.
You want to leave your cute 15-year-old daughter to her own devices for three hours a day? Ha!
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It’s aspirational. I *hope* to be old someday.
For the alternative is to be dead!
evrybody wanna go to heaven
I think I speak for the crowd
evrybody wanna go to heaven
but nobody wanna go now.
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omw
The key to understanding guys – the good kind anyway – is that no value is honored more highly than loyalty. It goes way back into pre-history. I mean, humans even guys are relatively frail creatures but if 3 or 4 of them with sharp sticks stand together with a strong enough sense of mutual loyalty they can confront an angry lion. Like I said, this is pretty ancient with guys.
If a guy and a youngish girl bond strongly and she gives him a few years of enthusiastic sex during her peak hottness and then a few kids get born he will NEVER want to leave her.
In the deep guy-brain, leaving such a woman would be like leaving your buddies to die with Mr. Lion. Unthinkable.
Women do not like to hear this because it sounds kinda impersonal. But for guys, expressing ultimate loyalty has a lot to do with being able to keep a righteous image of themselves. It is about ideals, iows. Never totally personal.
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OMW
You are not allowed to say shitte in it’s unadulterated form young lady.
Shame!
I may need to spank you.
Wait, what?
You’re married. And serious about that too.
Respect.
(Grrrr.)
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omw
The key to understanding guys – the good kind anyway – is realizing that no value is honored more highly than loyalty. It goes way back into pre-history. I mean, humans even guys are relatively frail creatures but if 3 or 4 of them with sharp sticks could stand together with a strong enough sense of mutual loyalty they can confront an angry lion. Like I said, this is pretty ancient stuff with guys.
If a guy and a youngish girl bond strongly and she gives him a few years of enthusiastic sex during her peak hottness and then a few kids get born he will NEVER want to leave her.
In the deep guy-brain, leaving such a woman would be like leaving your buddies to die with Mr. Lion. Unthinkable. You would die first.
Women do not like to hear this because it sounds kinda impersonal. But for guys, expressing ultimate loyalty has a lot to do with being able to keep ownership of an idealized image of themselves. It is about ideals, iows. Never totally personal.
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Anonymous —
Despite your double post separated by a post from me (which is a strange sort of double post indeed), that was a very interesting, well, comment.
It’s a just so story of course, but it’s one I like. It does have a ring of truth to it.
So ok, I’ll accept that as the scientifically certain basis for the scientifically established truth that men value loyalty above all other virtues.
It is true though that men value it a hell of a lot in their close do stuff together mates (hunting band).
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Just so stories work for me. I am English.
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Regarding the younger woman older guy debate.
Feminists have NO PROBLEM when the man is Alpha, and don’t complain about much of anything. Heck Feminists ADORE Roman Polanski. That piece of human garbage. Women don’t give Clooney flack for his bimbo of the week, nor do they have any objection to any hot-shot older male celeb hooking up with some young thing. Which is basically the rule in Hollywood.
Exhibit A: Evan Rachel Wood. Exhibit B: Lindsay Lohan (when she’s not a lesbian, it’s even/odd days :>) Exhibit C: Hayden Panatierre.
Women only object if the guy is BETA. Then they do have a big, big problem. Solution? Don’t be beta. Of course that can by definition (and “Highlander Rules” … in the end there can be only one) works for very few guys.
I *DO* think that most men would remain loyal to their wives. Yes some men cheat, kill their wives/girlfriends, and so on. These men are usually hypermasculine, overly-aggressive, various criminally inclined bad-boys that women seek out BECAUSE they are highly testosterone charged.
But most guys are not like that, and most societies channel male and female sexual selection so that guys avoid bimbos (social pressure) and women avoid bad-boys. Since left to their own devices and with an equal playing field that is EXACTLY who they would choose. Male preference for girls next door is recent and a sign that many guys next door are getting priced out of the relationship market.
Women need rules more than men do. Women’s downside is potentially ending up dead. Most of the women who do so because of their husbands/boyfriends make bad choices, that are seen by everyone around her as a bad choice, and do it anyway overestimating their control, power, and ability to deal with violent, dangerous men. Exhibit 1: Natalee Holloway. Naive, dumb teen-ager taken with the bad boy in the club in a foreign land. Stronger social rules limiting sexuality would have kept her alive (by preventing her from leaving with him). Women know this, and would rather on average have total sexual freedom than rules protecting young and stupid girls from making predictably stupid decisions regarding men.
I am personally of the opinion, that most teen girls need a whole lot of education, in the school of hard knocks, about what makes a good and a bad boyfriend, without sex and using up the ability to bond, and without danger of choosing a Van Der Sloot. Then they have enough judgment, “driver training” if prefer the metaphor, to go out on their own and make wise decisions. Operating without rules seems not helpful.
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Homemaking is getting to be “hip” among some of the younger gals I know, though; I’m 27 and have never once sensed social disapproval for not working outside the home.
Not like my mom did in the 80s and early 90s, though she had as many kids as close together as I do. And homeschooled ‘em!
She can tell some hair-raising stories about brain-dead yuppies making moronic assumptions.
Return to patriarchy, I suppose.
But shit, now that I’ve gotten off the career track, I really don’t WANT to get back on it at 30 or 35; I’ll be stuck working some shitty entry-level job and being forever bossed around by some fresh-faced college grad ten, twenty years my junior.
OMW, homemaking is getting to be hip for a couple of reasons, I suspect – it’s seen to be easier than running the rat race like their mothers have been, and there is slightly less condemnation of motherhood since so many celebrities make such a big deal of it.
Over here, thanks to wondrous inventions like the Baby Bonus, you can get an instant cash injection of $5000 just for giving birth. And that’s per child.
The government will subsidise your childcare, you get payments for getting your child immunised, you can get assistance paying school fees.
Here is a nice page full of links to welfare payments. Spend some time in the “parent or guardian” section down the bottom.
Regarding going back to work after the kids and being on the career track, ultimately it’s up to you.
I went back to work because I don’t like being a single mother on benefits, and my girl needs to see that you have to work for things. I don’t get any money from her father, so someone has to do something.
Plus, I enjoy working and being independent. Always did.
I just don’t want to work in the well paid management jobs I used to have.
I work in a lower paying job, some would say menial, but it suits me. I can leave early and come late if necessary to deal with my child, I am not concentrating on trying to get ahead all the time – my child comes first.
I could have had other jobs that paid twice as much, but they’re not as rewarding.
When you get to your mid-30s and the kids are at school, you might just want to go get a part time job to go play amongst the adults for a change, which is another factor that people forget.
We don’t have the social networks of stay at home mums that we used to. When I was growing up in the 70s, early 80s (damn, now I really do feel old!), there were always a few mums around in case of trouble, and we knew who was there for us even if both parents had to work.
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nilk
What country? UK?
Why is that? Because he’s chronically out of work? Or doesn’t the state where you are go after fathers for child support?
How did you come to have a kid without a partnership to parent her?
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Nilk, for real??! Dang, I’d have another baby for 5K. No, not really. Maybe. Twist my arm a little more…
Heh.
Yeah, I hear you about the benefits of working flexible jobs after the kids get a little older.
My mom tried that when we were kids, but all it did was bump the family into the next tax bracket.
Between extra taxes, mileage, and the sheer logistical hassles involved, the little bit of extra money just wasn’t worth it in the end.
We’ll see. I do miss seeing adults on a regular basis. Most days, the only adult I see is my husband. This cannot be good for one’s mental health, longterm. LOL.
But yes, I will probably never have a Real Job again. That’s ok with me, though.
If I’d wanted to have and keep a Real Job, I’d have waited till I was in my late 20s to get married and not try for a baby till sometime around 30-35. Seems a rather risky strategy to me, but women do it successfully all the time.
Clearly, having a Real Job is not that damn important to me. 😉
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Here is the photo of the Russian president vs Obama vs Italian Berlusconi….in one setup. Who is the alpha?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/wheres-canada-bathroom-break-confuses-the-g20-family-photo-1660658.html?action=Popup&ino=2
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Very interesting stuff.
I only pitty I am to young to have notice it myself. Though I can definetly say it is true. Very, very interesting…
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Doug, I’m in Oz. Max on here should be able to tell you all about the wonders of our social security.
Regarding my parenting circumstances, I don’t discuss how I got here on teh interwebz in the interests of other people’s privacy – especially my daughter’s.
I’ll just say that some of my decisions weren’t the wisest, and the Law of Unintended Consequences really does have unintended consequences.
I could go after him for money, but it’s better not to start nagging and whining and litigation to get him to make a small fiscal contribution. Kids eventually work out what’s what anyway, so I don’t lose any sleep over it.
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Define “Real Job”, OMW. You think staying home and keeping house and raising kids isn’t Real Work?
It is, and never more so than in this day and age.
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dougjnn
“Firepower Who the hell are you? ”
I’m the man watching you retards fuck
take off that helmet for god sakes
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either doogie’s mad i got kassy moist – or his tampon fell out
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“nilk,
It is, and never more so than in this day and age.”
Are you serious?
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My bullshit meter just hit in the 100 percent range lol
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Gunslinger I’m not talking about the material stuff. Anyone can put a roof over their kid’s head. You can feed them, entertain them no problem.
It’s the harder work of growing decent people that I’m talking about.
How about the child 10 year old who thinks it’s okay to grope on my daughter? My girl’s nearly 7.
That one got dealt with in no uncertain terms, by the way.
How about the 12 year old boy who tells his mum about the girl at school who has sex with other boys? Mum tells him to “stay away from the little slut” and you can guess what happens next… he’s her next “boyfriend”. Mum goes off her tree, of course, but it was always going to happen.
Look around you, Gunslinger… what sort of role modelling do you see for children of any sex? The books they come home with from school are often rubbish, the information they get inundated with at school likewise (“Japanese people are evil because they kill and eat whales” via the art teacher, for example. So much for the Japanese friends we have. Who knew?)
We go to church most sundays, and I have worn my fair share of crap just for taking her along. Her father is an atheist and his family likewise, but they “approve” of the one we go to.
It’s the little things like providing your child with examples. I punish lying, yet have a look at Hannah Montana – a show built around a girl who lies to everyone about her secret life as a pop star. Yeah, lying pays off.
Except at home here.
How do you combat theNew! Improved! Dora the Explorer fore example? In my case, I’m lucky that my child loathes her with a passion and always has. Kid’s got taste lol.
I’ve got an extensive dvd collection so that she has a choice of things to watch, and only after it’s been vetted by me, but she still gets to see crap like Pokemon at other people’s place.
The list goes on…. and on….
You want to meet Good Girls? Well how do you grow them in this day and age?
That’s where I’m coming from. Sorry for the rant – I just don’t give a rat’s about the material crap. It’s the intangibles that really matter, and that’s the hardest thing to impart in our society today.
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LOL. What’s the post title? Something about hormones? I guess I should have had my chocolate fix this morning.
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nilk
Yeah.
But it sound to me that that is just what you’re doing, anyway. It would help if she had an involved father with similar views though.
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Oh no, nilk, I had complete freedom over my choices as a child — spending hours in front of Pokemon, Arabic-censored anime and even some ‘those Israelis!’ propaganda — and am now completely screwed up, vacant, anti-semitist and immoral as a person directly because of this poison.
(Just so you know — which you will — I was being sarcastic and am not those things. I have my flaws, but not Do-not-pass-Go-burn-at-the-stake. And I’ve made it to medical school okay.)
Don’t be too paranoid. I understand, I get like this with my sister who keeps being subjecting herself to marathons of bad cartoons (urrrgh). I go around the house going ‘she can’t spell properly yet! why’s she watching that? Let’s get her out & exercising’ and reading to her (futilely) bits of Islamic stories to try and get her thinking about good and evil instead of exclusively ‘I want a PS3/better computer/bigger room/money’.
She’ll be fine as long as you emphasise things like education, crticial thinking and morals. Being too controlling and protective results with rebellion and lack of self-defense skills, both mentally and physically. It’s a fact that she’ll be exposed to a lot of things way earlier than she should be, so it’s better to try and equip her with the skills to deal with them herself and see you as a person that she can go to as help, rather than as someone to hide from. No matter what you try and do, I think, she’ll turn out different that you can expect or control. She will say and do crazy things as part of exploring who she’s going to be.
I’m continuously panicking over the idea that my sister is going to secondary school soon. Pregnancy, drugs, sex, fights, gangs, rebellion, bullying, social failure: at the tender, stubborn and obtuse age of eleven? Oh innocence and relative peace, fare thee well!
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It’s okay, Doug – she’s got an involved father. We even agree on some things, and one of those is that she needs time with him and also with his extended family.
That way she gets exposure to both sides of her family tree.
LOL We’re all very lucky I found this gem early in the piece. It’s a lot easier to step back from your own emotions and the pressure around you when you’ve got a few studies and articles like that to reassure you that you’re not completely insane.
I’m very much a creature of the 80s and 90s – Naomi Wolf, Susan Faludi (although Stiffed is a much better book which the feminazis hate).
Luckily I grew up.
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Nilk —
Good for you on that.
I skimmed through the gem you linked. Naturally I liked the emphasis on the importance of fathers for things other than money. Also this is importantly where I’m coming from in marriages with children:
That’s way worse in the US than Australia, from what I can tell.
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Step one:
Nilk grab a hold of the TV now take it to an elevated level with hopefully some concrete below. (no innocent bystanders)
Step two:
Toss it down on the concrete below. Move on with life.
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