If a potential flu pandemic won’t convince America’s elites to act to close the southern border, then nothing will.
Any bets on how many Americans would have to be stricken with a superstrain of H1N1 before our representatives (and I use the term loosely) decide to stop the inflow of illegals? 1,000? 10,000? 1 million? Or ten well-situated pundits working for the Wall Street Journal and New York Beta Times?
I do believe it is time for a handy dandy chart.
# of American deaths caused Action taken by American
by Mexican machismoflu government
10 Nothing to see here, move along.
100 It’s fully contained to a few small pockets.
The habanero spice must flow.
1,000 No point in closing the border now.
Flu’s already here!
10,000 We’re all gonna die anyway.
Better to die in a diverse country.
100,000 We’ll put up a cheapo ineffective fence just to
show you rubes how ineffective fences are.
1,000,000 *** bzzt… end transmission… bzzt… beep ***
Revolution.
Take it easy with the xeno-kool-aid.
This is one huge bullshit story to hit mainstream media. The only confirmed deaths have been in Mexico city and they are questionable due to the upcoming federal elections (Summer-09).
The mainstream media has jumped on the bandwagon only due to these reported deaths. Read the WHO and CDC sites, there are no severe cases outside Mexico.
Though don’t be surprised if you see some of these ‘1976 Swine Flu’ ads running on TV to add to the mass-histeria:
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damn,
3 posts in one day, must be on vacation or something…
on Drudge today i saw that some EU countries (perhaps the whole EU?) is calling for people to cease traveling to the U.S.
wtf? Mexico has the fucking swine flu. Now we’re being painted as the culprits here?
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Roissy:
Are you trying to save the world in a way?
Anyway if it does impact the US my city may be one of the first to get hit on a large scale.(Houston).
No problem, I’ll use the hospitals wifi connection to inform you guys the world is coming to an end, and your next.
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Take it easy with the xeno-kool-aid.
we’re all xenophobic now.
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lol schoolboy
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anyone see 28 days later?
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Revolution would do a lot of good for everyone. Get out a lot of poison but it is just a dream more than likely. Now china taking over probably will happen.
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I thought the Chinese bird flu was supposed to have killed us all off by now. or SARS, or AIDS, or hepatitis C.
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But hey thats why your doing good work so that I can get some 10’s before I go. Not really interested in being physically involved in revolution anymore just want to be physically involved in some pussy. Let the shit go to hell. Your sons if you have any will thank you for the opportunity to prove themselves in something larger than themselves. Really running out of opportunities for men to be men. Will give them one last hurrah to be heroes.
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9/11/2009 didn’t exactly stop Middle Eastern immigration. If fact, it increased. Terrorist act is in Spain and UK brought on more acommodations to foreing invaders.
A little flu isn’t gonna shut our border. Nothing will until power is wrested from the scum that run this country, its corporation, and its education-media complex. Into whose hands all of those disasters are playing.
It’s gonna take a revolution. America must be restored.
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2001, not 2009. Typo.
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I’m kind of skeptical as to whether anything can be done about this. I caught SARS when I lived in China, and although it was a rather uncomfortable experience (I coughed up blood and felt like I couldn’t breathe for a day), at least I’m immune to it now.
Diseases will cross borders whether or not there’s a fence, but employers will have a much harder time screwing American workers if one is in place. I think we ought to focus on the American worker first, but if this pig flu enhances the desire to control the border I guess it might have a silver lining after all.
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Diseases will cross borders whether or not there’s a fence
stop the vector, stop the disease.
I guess it might have a silver lining after all
i have no problem with opportunistic hardball politics. if your enemy is a bastard, you be twice the bastard.
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Aaaand Roissy has sold out to push a political agenda.
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Aaaand Roissy has sold out to push a political agenda.
funny, i don’t see a check on my desk.
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current “government” in any form run by any party will not stop illegals. Ever.
they’ll want the surviving, immune to cast a vote their way
and they will
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Roissy has sold out to push a political agenda.
LOL. That’s it all right. Roissy has sold out to Pat Buchanan, Steve Sailer, and all those other rich and powerful xenophobes who secretly run things.
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Real Talk.
Time to stock up on credit card knifes, camoflougue suits, “jungle jons,” water, and guns.
If all else fails, I will kidnap Neil Strauss, in order to survive.
but then I remembered…
“On a long enought time line…the survival rate for everyone drops to 0.”- Tyler D
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You couldn’t contain it just by stopping immigration. You’d have to stop ALL travel from and through Mexico, including airports of course. Anyway, it’s too late because now it’s everywhere, so we just have to hope it’s not too severe.
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I’m all for closing the borders, but that won’t stop diseases from spreading.
Should we stop all international flights, too? Common flu strains sweep all over the world every year, whether they start in Mexico or elsewhere. In fact, they swept all over the world long before there was any such thing as mass Mexican immigration or even air travel.
H1N1 one just happens to be either (A) an especially scary one, or more likely (B) a case of media hype, or possibly (C) both A and B.
Non-scientific arguments like this just muddy the very good and clear case for stricter immigration policy.
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Give me a break. It’s been groundless hysteria against “nazis” and “kkk” and such that has gotten us into this predicament to start with.
Now that it’s going the other way, all of the sudden we have to ignore the menace of the Mexican Pig Flu?
I hope, when your children are coughing up whole enchiladas as their lives are slipping away, you think long and hard about hiring that illegal maid to clean your SWPL vomit off the kitchen floor.
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Roissy, sometimes you’re a brilliant genius and sometimes you’re a complete moron.
stop the vector, stop the disease.
It’s obviously you’ve never actually seen the Mexican border or spent any time near it. llegal immigration is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the HUGE THRONGS of Americans that cross the border every single day to shop, drink, party, play on beaches, etc. Just about the entire 18-21yo population of San Diego goes to TJ every Friday and Saturday night.
If you want to stop diseases from coming from Mexico, you have to stop American tourism. Illegal immigration is a red herring.
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The swine flu has hit Scotland. We are done people done. There is nothing you can do but sleep 8 hrs, eat well, and take a multi vitamin. Heavy meat eaters I beg that you take to eating more fruit and vegetables during this time. Put away your soda until the water becomes undrinkable. Better run out and get your hand on a ten while you still have the strength to do so.
The news people needed a new story since they’ve been running the loop with the recession and small breaks for the pirates, British singer, and Scully for the past 7 months.
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For consistency’s sake Roissy, did you support closing off the Canadian border during the SARS outbreak?
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To slumlandlord and any other health professional here
Isn’t the flu virus carried by little droplets in the air like TB and chickenpox?
People please remember to wash with soap and water your hands every chance you get. ESp after being in public places.
Fun Fact: microbiologists don’t think much of hand sanitizers.
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Voodude makes a powerful point that I’ve been thinking about for awhile now-why are people, who don’t live among or even near such “others” spend so much time thinking, writing, ruminating about said “others”? I mean, its pretty clear that Roissy and others, take great care not to rub elbows w/NAMs in any major way, if at all.
So…wassup with that?
O
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Mexico has the fucking swine flu. Now we’re being painted as the culprits here?
We call them Eurabia, they call us Mexamerica. Fair is fair!
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chicnoir:
That’s true, but not because they don’t work, but because they work too well. That is, they really do kill the vast majority of micro-organisms on your hands. But in so doing, they help ensure that the organisms that survive are hardier and resistant to sanitizing. It’s a typical “tragedy of the commons” problem. It’s in everyone’s individual interest to use sanitizers; but it is in the interest of the greater good (the sum total of individual interests, which would theoretically lead to greater good for each individual) to do away with their use.
For the record, I don’t use them either, but I’m a healthy, virile young man who eats well, exercises, and washes his hands.
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Chicnoir:
Fuck that noise. I will keep eating meat.
Fruits and veggie’s are for whimps.
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You do realize that even if we closed the Mexico border, the flu strain would still come in, right?
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why are people, who don’t live among or even near such “others” spend so much time thinking, writing, ruminating about said “others”?
He lives in DC, and you don’t think he’s “among or near” the “others”? ROFLMAO! DC is a case study in what the political elites want to turn this whole country into – a corrupt, crime-ridden hell hole in which whitey is in the minority and the only “industry” is government.
Roissy could take a short walk from Adams Morgan if he wanted to see some “others”…
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Agree with VooDude here – you really can’t un-interconnect the world. And also agree with the comment that, so far, the issue is overhyped. Fear attracts viewers/readers and sells advertising. If in a few weeks it hasn’t really spread beyond mexico and is understood/contained by the CDC, they’ll move onto something else to dumb down and trivialize.
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The Science in Society blog has posted a response to recent swine flu news, putting it in perspective with previous flu pandemics. Here is a piece comparing flu intervention in 1918 and today. An excerpt:
Just how important is starting countermeasures early, and what kind of interventions work? The tragedy of the Spanish flu provides a natural laboratory for public health measures, as cities throughout the US differed both in scale and timing of their interventions.
Medical science in 1918 was still getting on its feet. The majority of older physicians of the time were not educated under the scientific regimen of the Flexnerian revolution. The leading bacteriologists of the day mistakenly believed that influenza was a bacterial disease, and it was not until 1943 when it was recognized that a virus was responsible. As a result, medical intervention in the pandemic was of questionable value, not least because most of the best doctors had been drafted to serve in the military for WWI.
However, nonmedical interventions were also employed. These included quarantines, isolation of the sick in makeshift wards, closure of public gathering places such as churches and schools. Quick action (as measured by when flu cases rose to double the baseline number of cases) had a strong correlation with reduced mortality, and that maintaining the measures was important to keep the disease from spreading.
St. Louis, for example, closed schools and canceled public gatherings early, and maintained quarantines for over ten weeks, leading to a significantly lower mortality rate. However, not all cities were as proactive; the median duration of these interventions was only four weeks, insufficient to protect the population. Some cities were even counterproductive: Philadelphia hosted a military parade to promote war bonds, over the objections of numerous doctors and public health officials. Soon afterwards, it became one of the hardest-hit cities in the US.
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why are people, who don’t live among or even near such “others” spend so much time thinking, writing, ruminating about said “others”?
Because we don’t want to live in a world where we have to take out kidnapping insurance and hire Blackwater to drive us to work in bullet-proof cars.
Dumbass.
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Tarl,
Yes, you are making my point perfectly. Roissy himself has written about his efforts to steer clear of Z Street, so to speak, which is his right of course. But let’s be clear-he’s in DC by his own volition and can leave at any time he chooses, for Whiter pastures. It still doesn’t answer my question, since we all know that DC is perhaps one of thee most racially segregated cities in the entire country.
Let’s try again: WHY are seemingly so many White (Men) so concerned about NAMs, when most don’t live among, near or with them to begin with? They don’t work with them, don’t hang out with them, don’t workout with them, don’t even serve with them, since most White Men in this group don’t tend to serve in the military.
Wassup with that?
O
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I went to grad school in DC and I don’t accept the view that DC is “segregated” – not even Foggy Bottom or Georgetown. When I was there I lived among, worked among, went to class with, and worked out with, “others”. Yeah, 99% of them were middle class “others” – don’t they count?
Even if he lived in some white enclave it would be perfectly reasonable to be aware of, interested in, and concerned about demographic trends in the USA.
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Because we don’t want to live in a world where we have to take out kidnapping insurance and hire Blackwater to drive us to work in bullet-proof cars.
Then you should get on your congressman to decriminalize drugs, because that’s the only way it’s going to stop.
Dumbass.
Indeed.
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If white people didn’t have serious issues with black people, they wouldn’t bother avoiding them. Getting concerned and getting segregated are about the same thing.
And this swine flu thing? I’m sure it’s at least as awful as the bird flu that killed everyone a few years ago. Anyone remember that?
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Then you should get on your congressman to decriminalize drugs, because that’s the only way it’s going to stop.
I’m all for it chief. But then what do you think a bunch of low IQ, high T ethno-nationalists are going to do for a living? Work at McDonald’s?
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Tarl,
Listen to yourself-“you went to school in Georgetown”, is that right? Have you ever actually spent real facetime in the Chocolate City, Tarl? I have, trust me, the difference btw where you were and that is like night and day. Please stop.
O
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roissy you are so worried about a little flu going around, when the entire country is being robbed? True, I will grant you that illegal immigration from Mexico SHOULD be stopped, but these are just Left-Right political spectrum distractions, like abortion and gay marriage, to the ongoing loot of the country.
Or is it because so many whites are involved in the coordinated, government captured, theft of America’s wealth?
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Every month something happens that I think is going to be the “next big thing.” Someone above said that EU countries are advising against citizens traveling to the US. I think this is taken out of context, and if it’s not, I’d like to see a link.
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Every month something happens that I think is going to be the “next big thing.” Someone above said that EU countries are advising against citizens traveling to the US. I think this is taken out of context, and if it’s not, I’d like to see a link.
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“but these are just Left-Right political spectrum distractions, like abortion and gay marriage, to the ongoing loot of the country.”
should read
“but at this time, these serve as Left-Right political spectrum distractions, like abortion and gay marriage, to the ongoing loot of the country. The MSM actively participates in hyping up the possibility of a swine flu pandemic, that is likely not to occur, as it is easier for them to do this than accurately report on the Wall Street players who own themand the government; on reporting the heist of the century. The MSM is bought just like D.C has been bought; they will play (liberals on the left, fox and co. on the right) , at their masters behest, the inherent divisions in the country in order to keep the gaze of the public off of where it at this point in time desperately needs to be.”
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Wounded,
Again, think about your paranoid statement-if anyone has to get protection from Blackwater, its other Mexicans and Blacks, who are invariably killed to a much higher rate and degree by gangbangers and the like, than the likes of you. Don’t worry, you are safe.
Of course, you don’t really care about the many good Black and Brown folk who have real reasons to be concerned, do you?
Hmm…
O
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“a corrupt, crime-ridden hell hole in which whitey is in the minority and the only “industry” is government.”
Yea but in this case the most corruption will be done by whitey. What do you call lobbying? Wall Street owns D.C – FACT.
Mostly a white orchestrated bloodless coup.
If I recall correctly, Goldman Sachs was the biggest contributer to Obama’s campaign, while Merrill Lynch was the biggest to McCain’s campaign.
OWNED.
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we are all xenophobic by birth, favoring the ingroup and readily blaming outsiders. The more dire the situation, the smaller the ingroup (at what body count does Roissy moan about DC’s borders with VA & MD? or city vs rural more appropriate?)
Beyond the petty political ploy, cutting off travel and group situations may help limit the spread, but at what cost? Given the mortality rate, exactly how many restrictions should be put in place?
What level of risk aversion should a government take and is that politically feasible? These questions are probably more appropriate for FuturePundit.
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I’m not black or brown so I couldn’t give a shit.
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Wounded,
Exactly! So, again:
WHY do YOU care so much about folks you actually spend any time with or among? What is up with that?
O
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Because niggers and Aztecs create dystopic societies.
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Wounded,
Really? How so? Please explain?
O
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Is that a serious question? Can you point to a single majority-negro or majority-Aztec polity that is experiencing net immigration? Do you know any neighborhoods where white influx causes the property values to go down?
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@Wounded: What the hell is an Aztec polity?
You do know that the Aztecs were a single mesoamerican tribe that lived only in central Mexico, right? Or do you think that “Aztec” is some sort of word that you can use to describe all Latinos?
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Assuming that “Aztec polity” is just a clumsy and ignorant way to refer to Latin America, try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Brazil
“Brazil has received one of the largest numbers of immigrants in the Western Hemisphere, along with the United States, Argentina and Canada.”
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Wounded,
Actually there are historically Black areas here in Philly that are being slowly phased out in favor of SWPL types. So there.
Now, could you answer Voodude’s question?
O
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For that matter, what is a “Latino?” Or do you seriously think there is no distinction between these “latinos” and this “latino”?
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ctually there are historically Black areas here in Philly that are being slowly phased out in favor of SWPL types. So there.
It’s called gentrification, whereby whites who have enough market clout to kick out lower-gentried blacks move closer to their high paying jobs. The reverse does not happen.
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@ Voodude,
Brazil? Are you serious?
In Rio, the upper class hire helicopters to fly them in over the mixed-blood and indigenous trash. You could not have picked a poorer example.
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Mostly a white orchestrated bloodless coup.
If I recall correctly, Goldman Sachs was the biggest contributer to Obama’s campaign, while Merrill Lynch was the biggest to McCain’s campaign.
This is true–they’re mostly bought out by different groups of whites.
Of course, if we wanted to go all the way paleocon, you could look at which groups of whites the names suggest…
And yes, I support decreasing immigration. From Mexico…they’re too alpha. Let’s get Chinese people instead, the men will invent new technology to make America strong and the women will sleep with geeks like me 🙂
Incidentally, has anyone ever specifically done game for geeks, or how to game geek girls?
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I believe your numbers over-estimate US government and popular response by about x 20.
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Why do people keep thinking “decriminalizing” drugs is the answer? How would flooding the streets with drugs to a degree that did not exist before solve any problems?
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Voodude said:
Congratulations! Of the dozens of countries in the Americas, you just named the two North American nations and the two South American nations with the highest numbers of people of European descent!
For all their various (and varied) problems, the US, Canada, Brazil, and Argentina are the four most advanced societies in the Western Hemisphere.
If Haiti (for example) is so great, why don’t we see a flood of native-born white Americans moving to Haiti instead of the other way around?
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@ Wounded Animal
“In Rio, the upper class hire helicopters to fly them in over the mixed-blood and indigenous trash.”
I would add that in Brazil, the upper class, which generally is “white” in appearance (or at least “whiter” relative to the other classes), even has a non-negligible and not insignificant degree of black admixture and ancestry. Simply put, many upper class “whites” would fail the “one drop rule” test many times over.
It’s often said that “Brazil is the country of the future — and always will be.” And Brazil looks like what the US is quickly becoming.
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I should add to my previous comment that the upper class “whites” not only have black admixture, but indigenous admixture as well.
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It’s often said that “Brazil is the country of the future — and always will be.” And Brazil looks like what the US is quickly becoming.
Great! And what is it, exactly, of that country of the future with its brown bag tests that you aspire to?
But I would agree with you: Brazil is the future of multicultural society. And, again, the light-skinned and white elites of that society will simply purchase ways to insulate themselves from the chaos their social policies unleashes.
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@Wounded: If you’d get off your ass and actually *go visit* our southern neighbors (and I mean walk around, not cower in a gated beach resort like a pathetic little mouse), you might discover that these countries are nothing like what you imagine.
In fact, spend a little bit of time in central or southern Mexico and you will discover:
* Mexicans wonder why the US gets in a tissy about Mexican immigration, because it seems to them that everyone else wants to be Mexican. US retirees are flooding into Mexico’s beach towns and colonial cities. Tourists in droves come from all over the world.
* Mexicans think most Americans are grossly obese and disgusting.
* Mexicans blame the escalating drug war violence on the US. All the drug cartels make their money by smuggling INTO THE UNITED STATES. We provide not only the drug demand, but also the easy access to heavy weapons.
* While rural campesinos aren’t any better educated than the inbred rednecks that seem to populate the comments of this forum, Mexican cities are full of young, urban hipsters that would fit into any metropolis of the world.
* A fair percentage of Mexican women are extraordinarily hot and just as fiery in bed as the stereotype reputes. An American man with decent game and two weeks of spanish classes can clean up.
I can’t judge Brazil, but I would take nearly any city in Mexico or Central America as a vacation destination over *anywhere* in the US.
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I’ve been to Mexico, and there is plenty of it here in Atlanta as well. I will gladly take you to Buford Highway, and you are free to hit on all the chunky, barely-literate meso-americans you wish.
I can’t judge Brazil, but I would take nearly any city in Mexico or Central America as a vacation destination over *anywhere* in the US.
That is a ridiculous statement. Mexico is an overpriced, dirty travel destination.
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I think we need to be a bit more careful and precise when we assess Haiti’s present; in order to do it properly, we have to also include its past, going all the way back to its independence, as the first Black country in the Western hemisphere. There was a price to be paid for that, and that price has been extracted eversince.
This in no way is to excuse the actions of many of Haiti’s leaders etc. But again, we must be more careful in assessing its history.
O
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That is a ridiculous statement. Mexico is an overpriced, dirty travel destination.
I suggest on your next visit that you spend less time with the Tijuana street whores.
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@ Wounded Animal
“Great! And what is it, exactly, of that country of the future with its brown bag tests that you aspire to?”
I don’t believe any of my comments suggested that I wished the US to become more like Brazil.
Your reading comprehension suggests that you, whom I gather to be “white”, suffer from the same distinction shared by the upper class “whites” in Brazil.
You mentioned that you live in Atlanta…..perhaps it’s Cherokee and or Negro slave admixture.
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I think we need to be a bit more careful and precise when we assess Haiti’s present; in order to do it properly, we have to also include its past, going all the way back to its independence, as the first Black country in the Western hemisphere.
Right. Like all the European peoples got in the competition of life. For example, when they beat back the Mongols or Suleiman’s hordes everybody just naturally handicapped them for their history as Europeans. Same when the Germanic tribes salvaged the wreck of the Roman Empire thru the Medieval era: everybody gave them the benefit of the doubt as an historically oppressed race. The Renaissance and Industrial Revolution too.
I mean truly, when have negroes not led the way?
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Got to respect the haitians because they are the first ones I ever heard about gang raping guys in the streets. That is pretty hardcore.
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Bigelow,
You seriously think there are no substantive differences between lighter-skinned races and darkere-skinned races?
I bet you’re whiter than Wonder bread.
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Wounded,
What do you actually know about Haiti? In terms of its history, its politics, its people? Come on, let’s be reasonable here.
O
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Obsidian:
I’m willing to hear you out. Certainly, Haiti has a fucked-up past (and present), with revolution, brutal insane dictators, rampant crime, and all kinds of internal wars.
But what do you mean “the first Black country in the Western hemisphere”?
Obviously, that’s a true statement, I don’t mean to argue that truth. But so what? Are you saying it should get a special dispensation because it’s people are genetically African? Because that would seem to imply that “black country = disadvantaged country.” I’m ready to agree with that, but I’m not sure that’s what you actually meant.
Cuba, Mexico, Colombia, and many other countries in the Americas, including, ahem, the United States, had to overthrow brutal European colonialist regimes by revolution. How is that different from Haiti? I’m not an expert on Haitian history. My understanding is that aside from being the only all-black country in the Americas, they were also the only all-slave colony. Jamaica was similar, but the English were slightly more humane to their slaves than the French. So that makes Haiti a special case, to be sure. Slavery is a terrible, terrible thing, and bound to fuck up a country in many ways.
But what is this “price to be paid” you are talking about? Haiti is certainly disadvantaged compared to say, Canada, or the US, in that those two countries have vast land areas and mighty natural resources that Haiti lacks. But why is Haiti any different than Cuba or Puerto Rico or Ecuador? All of the above were ruled by colonial powers. All eventually threw off their masters through revolution decades ago. Are you suggesting that there is some sort of international conspiracy to keep Haiti the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere just because they are all black?
Even Cuba, ruled by communist assholes for the last 60 years, is in far better shape than Haiti.
I’m not necessarily making the argument that Haiti’s blackness is the reason for it’s turmoil. But there has to be an explanation. Haiti’s been occupied, fucked-with by the US and other powers, kicked around, etc. etc. To be sure. But so has Puerto Rico. So has Chile. So was the United States in it’s inception… the British were MUCH more powerful than the US in the first few decades of our history, and they hated us, blockaded us, fucked with us, and even sailed up the Potomac and lit our capitol on fire in 1812. Somehow, all the above countries, from the wealthy USA to the destitute Ecuador, have managed more or less stable governments recently, especially since the end of the Cold War made the US and the Soviets stop playing global politics in their back yards.
I’ve spent many, many months in the last few years in El Salvador for work. That’s not a rich country. They were deep in bloody, imperialist-driven civil war as recently as 1990. Proxies of the Soviets and Americans did war that even included killing Catholic nuns and small children. Raping and killing and land mines and napalm. But nowadays they have free and fair elections, you can buy a burger or a beer or a cup of coffee or a fucking Lexus at any old shopping mall. No one shoots at you. No one rapes you. They have tons of problems, of course, and they are refusing to fix some of them in the standard, retarded ways that governments and economies standardly fuck that shit up. But compared to Haiti, it’s fucking paradise.
Of course every situation is unique. But other Western Hemisphere countries are all doing way, way better than Haiti today. So what, exactly, should we be “careful” about when it comes to that country?
Maybe they just need to get their shit together like the rest of us.
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If white people are the problem, then Haiti should not have any problem. Market-dominant ethnic minorities around the world seem to be doing fine. So Haiti’s fundamental problem seems to be … too many Negroes.
Same for Detroit, New Orleans, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Kenya, Rwanda, Le Cote d’Ivoire, and on and on. And all the trillions of dollars that every white net tax payor in the world can pay won’t make a difference.
Failed race.
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Voodude,
“Just about the entire 18-21yo population of San Diego goes to TJ every Friday and Saturday night.”
This stuff has been slowing down since the beginning of 2008.
But still you make good points.
A lot of fear in these comments.
How many of you actually live on the border (or spend any significant time there)?
Closing the border is idiotic.
Plus unless your a chimp who doesn’t know what’s up, Mex can be very beautiful and untouched.
Thinking otherwise, is simply from lack of knowledge or adventure.
– MPM
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@ Wounded Animal
Perhaps I was not clear in my first comment about upper class “whites” in Brazil and black/indigenous admixture.
There are substantive differences between human population sub groups (races).
I was saying that even the upper class “whites” have non-negligible/not insignifcant degrees of black/indigenous admixture. And this is despite how they conceive of themselves, how they present themselves, their separation as a class from the lower classes, etc.
I wasn’t saying that this was a good thing. Considering the reality of substantive differences between human population sub groups, most likely it’s a negative thing.
Brazil sucks. As America becomes more like Brazil, demographically speaking, it sucks more and more.
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And I would add that, despite what some retarded post-colonialist college professors might want to believe, at least since the 60s, all the American intervention in Haiti has been quite benevolent and actually very big-hearted.
My friend was in Port-au-Prince during the UN occupation of Cité Soleil. She’s a bleeding heart liberal. But even she had to admit what a profoundly positive influence that occupation had. Cité Soleil was the most dangerous neighborhood in the Caribbean, perhaps the world. The UN came in with peacekeepers and stopped the murdering and raping. Now, ironically, Cité Soleil is just about the only safe place in Haiti, and the areas just outside the UN cordon are rampant with slayings and gangland attacks. UN forces sometimes have to witness brutal rapings and killings just on the other side of the street and do nothing about it, because their mandate stops at a certain intersection.
My friend said it was tragic that the UN doesn’t occupy more of Port-au-Prince. Perhaps it is. But I would argue it’s especially tragic that the Haitians don’t make those occupations unnecessary by acting like civilized people.
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Master Dogen,
In order to understand Haiti, its present, its very important to understand its past. I don’t claim in any way to be an expert, and indeed Dave Alex may be better qualified to fil in the gaps here. Nevertheless its a good chance to learn, together.
As you rightly note, Slavery was a horrid enterprise, and insofar as the USA and islands were concerned, it was the Brits who more or less led the way in bringing about its end. As you rightly note, the French and others, weren’t so forthcoming.
Anti-Black sentiment at that time was particularly virulent, and even moreso when Toussaint L’Overture defeated the French. Keep in mind, the French was being roundly defeated in the States as well, etc, and was a very trying time for them.
They were in a position to make life pretty tough for the newly freed Haitian people, and they did.
Old habits, and grudges, die hard. Much like our grudges against the Cubans.
Again, I don’t excuse in any way, Haiti’s horrid Black leaders and what they did to their own people. But we have to see that there’s more to things than meets the eye. As you rightly note, Haiti has been plagued with international meddling and this has been the case going almost back to day one.
Present day Haiti is still not free from its racial and racist past-there exists a “high yellow” cast both of mulatto Haitians, and as well, other non-Haitian/Black groups in positions of power over the Black majority, and this has been at the core of much of its internal conflicts. Add to this strongman leaders, like Papa and Baby Doc, and you get what you see today.
I don’t accept the premise that a Black country cannot govern itself, there are examples that prove this notion wrong. True, they are not numerous, but they are in existence-Ghana, Senegal, even Liberia under Africa’s first Woman President. Its coming along, it can be done.
You’ve spent time in Central America; you have known perhaps better than most, how bad it was there. Yet it was able to make a turn around.
It’ll be a bit tougher for Haiti. But I think it *can* happen.
O
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Obsidian:
Okay. I’m with you. I hope it happens too. And I don’t think it *can’t* happen.
But leaders are one thing. Papa Doc and Baby Doc would be comically hilarious as men, if they hadn’t caused so much suffering. Kind of like Kim Jong Il is a ridiculous human being but it’s hard to laugh at the millions of people he has starved to death.
But, for the sake of argument, what about the responsibility of people to take control of their own situation? The Duvaliers are long gone. Why can’t Haiti — if not be a rich, prosperous country like England, which is a tall order — at least get to an El Salvador (or Cuba, or Jamaica, or Panama) level of stability and wealth?
I will admit I’m inclined to think it has something to do with racial qualities, however ugly that suggestion might seem. But let’s pretend everyone’s the same color and there’s no such thing as race, for the sake of argument. The other thing that bothers me is how we always want to make excuses for people. It encourages to make excuses for themselves. Life is fucking hard. You have to man up and deal with it.
The election of Obama is very interesting to me, all left-right politics aside, because it’s an opportunity for US blacks to cast aside the victim mentality. If the relative poverty and oppressed position of US blacks is due to historical and structural reasons, then it has to come to end at some point. I’d argue that point is as close as we are ever going to get it in a society that has more than one ethnic group (there will always be at least some tension between groups) — let alone a society like ours that has dozens of groups. It would be a shame if we finally cast aside structural racism (which only an idiot would suggest we didn’t/don’t have), only to see Africans refuse their own entry into the world of being self-determined autonomous, intelligent, hard-working human beings. You have to earn dignity; no one can bestow it upon you. Malcolm X understood that.
That last paragraph isn’t really an argument against you or a personal message. Just musing here.
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PS: not to bring everything back to El Salvador, but to your point, they also have some structural racial divides. The upper-class “ARENA” voters are almost all lighter-skinned than the lower-class “FMLN” voters. And yet still… cappuccinos at the mall, and peace at dusk.
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MD,
The Obama angle is interesting to me as well; its “The Magical Negro” writ large indeed, and in many ways I think such a notion is pernicious. I say that because it denies Black folks of their full humanity. It puts a kind of burden on them that others, even Whites themselves, don’t have to shoulder.
I recognize Obama’s historical importance, and yet I kind of recoil from it, because he is not “one of us”. In many ways, he’s a lot closer to immigrant status, than the descendant of Slaves. True, he married such a person, and yes, he’s identified deliberately as Black; but let’s be honest, part of Obama’s appeal was that he didn’t carry the potential for “all that baggage” that a Sharpton or Jackson does-and not in terms of their stated positions. I’m talking in terms of their speaking patterns and mannerisms; Obama doesn’t come accross as “too Black”. We all intuitively know this, especially Whites, whom its been proven right here in this venue, are incredibly sensitive to Black folks in various ways.
So, I kinda see Obama as White America’s way to seek racial/racist absolution, as well as to kinda wash its hands of the whole thing by saying to the rest of Black America, “See! If you just “tone down” all that Black stuff and work hard, you too can succeed!”
Well, I personally have a few problems with that.
First, I like being “too Black”-i like the unique, distinctive ways we do things, the speaking patterns (NOT necessarily Ebonics, I don’t use em myself), the mannerisms, the ways we dress (the suits Obama wears are absolutely horrid! Ugh. He needs to take a page outta Ed Gordon’s book), and so on-contrary to the idea that they are “alien” they are distinctively AMERICAN, and I have absolutely no intention in the least of changing it, and from what I can tell, neither are the vast majority of Black folk. Why should we? It has no bearing on one’s work ethic or performance or the lack thereof. I can be an exceptionally hard worker and still retain my unique spin on Americana too. There’s room for both.
O
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I, on the other hand, have absolutely no problems with that.
I tone down my “White stuff,” (no, contrary to what one might think our only past time is not dressing in suits and doing business) and work hard, and I succeed.
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The quick it’s nearly 3 AM reason as to why Haiti is messed up by regional standards…
1) No real training wheel mode of government. It went from slaves to slave rebellion to self-government. Everybody in the Caribbean had some stage of limited government before full democracy.
2) Mulatto upper class that basically ran everything in their interests as a rentier class. They were simply happy with the money that they had, and couldn’t be bothered to do anything else.
3) The Duvalier regime basically chased out the mulattos with money (for fear of coups), foreign whites and their investment opportunities, and young intellectuals who could have been productive professionals fearing a Communist uprising.
4) AIDS scared away tourists. Instability scared away business and industry. No mineral resources and poor soils. Small plots create subsistence farming, poor roads make transporting food difficult. Haiti imports basic food stuffs and products from the Dominican Republic and other neighbouring islands or the United States.
5) Kleptocratic regimes stealing the from the limited tax revenues. Everybody wants to work in a government office or an NGO or immigrate anywhere. Nobody wants the dirty work of starting a business.
6) Pre-1990s Haiti was relatively calm and peaceful. Haitians of my parents and grandparents generation don’t have any memories of crime and instability. Some have argued that the drug trade has turned a generation of Haitians into greedy and violent thugs. Others argue that the shipment of young criminal Haitians back to Haiti from the US and the inflow of ghetto/inner-city American and Jamaican culture has imported the bad traits to what was once a quiet paradise. Regardless, outside of Port-au-Prince, the country is relatively stable with little crime.
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si senor, keess thee peeg.
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To anyone who thinks Haiti sucks because it’s populated with mud races, or Haiti sucks because it was subjected to eeebil colonialist oppressors; I have a one word refutation for you:
Trinidad.
By all accounts, a nice place. High literacy, GDP, decent amenities and a modern service economy. You never hear about it, because it doesn’t have too many problems. It’s pretty much black people and Asian indians, so if you are of the “negroes iz dumb” school of historical thought, you have an obvious counterexample here. It was also a slave state under the Spaniards, just like the Dominican Republic.
So, like, race and victim politics ain’t the answer to every question. The world is complicated, and social folkways are really damn important; probably even more important than race and dumb historical resentments. The way some of you follow your dumb political lodestones, you come off like tinfoil helmet wearers who find out the secret to the Kennedy assassination in the Voynich manuscript.
Also, a plurality of Hatian-Americans are actually millionaires, so suck it.
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oh my god, what is the big deal? it’s the flu! it happens every year – a cold or flu epidemic goes around the world. somehow this is different because we’re able to trace it to mexico? please.
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Obsidian —
Most Blue/White collar guys think very little about Blacks.
Cultural Conservatives like myself point to what happened to the Black Community as what WILL happen to the larger White community if steps are not taken. No greater loss culturally has been what happened to the Black Community since 1965. Your point about Blacks being the Canary in the Coal Mine is a point taken by most conservative thinkers, who point to the near total collapse of Urban Black culture and serious problems among the Suburban groups. Tyler Perry is not the only taking serious cultural lessons from this.
In addition, many fans of older Black music are heartbroken over the loss of the staggering genius of Black Music, from Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder to Snoop Dogg and Lil Jeezy in one and half generation. No greater loss of cultural patrimony has yet been observed.
Finally, most Whites in segregated cities see Black cultural and political dysfunction as road blocks to needed social and political reform. Including crime, violence, public health, job loss, and other social environmental factors that deeply concerns them. That race-baiting extortionists like Sharpton, Obama, Rangel, Waters, Lee, etc. are in cahoots with Hard Left Liberals and Wall Street (but I repeat myself) is obvious to anyone and creates, culturally, political enemies the way having Mets and Yankees fans side by side does, on a wider and deeper scale.
SFG — your error is in thinking that most American Jews are Jews first. They voted for Obama, by definition they are not, rather SWPL yuppies first. That is the typical Paleocon mistake, hatred for Jews clouding judgment. Hatred is a vice no man should allow himself to indulge in wrt another people. It clouds the mind and gives rise to errors in judgment as a matter of course.
Mexico and Haiti are pitholes because of Big Man syndrome. Nowhere that system exists has anything but hell resulted. Both are so embedded due to Male fighting over women and hoarding by the Big Men that it’s unlikely to ever change outside long colonial occupation.
We ought to close the border to stop the vectors. We ought to just to keep Mexicans out — they certainly do it to keep Hondurans out. MEXICO has a whacking big border fence, arguing that they are different than Hondurans and must keep them out, notwithstanding the close genetic kinship Hondurans and Guatemalans and Salvadorans have to Mexicans in Chiapas.
As a practical matter Mexico’s culture, language, attitudes towards women, model (or lack of it) of male cooperation, and nearly everything else have proven an abysmal failure before and after Independence. With Mexico so large in population and right next door and so many coming over, it’s unlikely to ever change with the immigrants, nearly all illegal, they send.
I like Mexicans a lot. Just in Mexico.
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“””””””””””””on April 28, 2009 at 2:34 am Lupo
To anyone who thinks Haiti sucks because it’s populated with mud races, or Haiti sucks because it was subjected to eeebil colonialist oppressors; I have a one word refutation for you:
Trinidad.
By all accounts, a nice place. High literacy, GDP, decent amenities and a modern service economy. You never hear about it, because it doesn’t have too many problems. It’s pretty much black people and Asian indians, so if you are of the “negroes iz dumb” school of historical thought, you have an obvious counterexample here. It was also a slave state under the Spaniards, just like the Dominican Republic.
So, like, race and victim politics ain’t the answer to every question. The world is complicated, and social folkways are really damn important; probably even more important than race and dumb historical resentments. The way some of you follow your dumb political lodestones, you come off like tinfoil helmet wearers who find out the secret to the Kennedy assassination in the Voynich manuscript.
Also, a plurality of Hatian-Americans are actually millionaires, so suck it.””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
You talk just like my parents or relatives would. You fucking extra educated piece of excuse ridden only for blacks, pile of shit, blind, deaf, and dumb monkey fucking genious retard from hell.
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@whiskey:
We ought to close the border to stop the vectors. We ought to just to keep Mexicans out — they certainly do it to keep Hondurans out. MEXICO has a whacking big border fence, arguing that they are different than Hondurans and must keep them out, notwithstanding the close genetic kinship Hondurans and Guatemalans and Salvadorans have to Mexicans in Chiapas.
Mexico doesn’t share a border with Honduras. You fail.
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Lupo,
The largest ethnicity in Trinidad is of East Indian descent and this country has a strong petrolium industry which helps a lot. Also, what the hell does “a plurality of Hatian-Americans are actually millionaires” mean ? Most of them are rich ? I somehow doubt it. I’d say, suck it yourself!
PS I do agree that a lot of people like “Wounded Animal” are idiots. It is a bit sad on both side of the divide.
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The death, robbery, rape and destruction caused by blacks is much worse than anything by Mexicans.
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Mexico doesn’t share a border with Honduras. You fail.
The US doesn’t share a border with Honduras or El Salvador, either, but somehow over 400,000 Hondurans and 1.1 mill Salvadorans are here.
Do Hondurans and Salvadorans come through Mexico en route to the USA? Hmmmmm, let me think…
Listen to yourself-”you went to school in Georgetown”, is that right? Have you ever actually spent real facetime in the Chocolate City, Tarl? I have, trust me, the difference btw where you were and that is like night and day. Please stop.
So the many, many blacks I interacted with every single day weren’t “real”? They don’t count as “others”? Please explain, because I want to know, why middle class blacks aren’t “real” blacks…
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Wounded Animal
That is a major part of the problem. People like George Bush hang around with the first type but we import the second type.
The elites of the US hang around with the elites of Mexico. They think: “Those Mexicans are just like us. What’s the fuss?” Of course elites will always be like each other. The millions of Mexicans (legal and illegal) that stream over the border are not part of the “just like us” elite.
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Voodude
This article shows that the proudest countries often have least to be proud about. This is similar to the way people that perform poorly at a skill are the ones most likely to overestimate their skill (don’t know what they don’t know).
[ http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2006/08/puerto-ricans-are-proudest-people-in.html ]
That is the problem. The educated stay in Mexico. The US gets the rural campesinos (rednecks). So hip urban open border fanatics are making America more “redneck.”
Like the educated, the Mexican cuties stay in Mexico. We get the 4×5 (4 feet tall, 5 feet wide) uglies.
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Brazil sucks. As America becomes more like Brazil, demographically speaking,
As the only brazilian commenting here, let me answer this.
If you want the cure of cancer, faster airplanes or computers, the above comment makes sense. Brazil won’t create any of those, but California as it was until 30 years ago would.
Second, crime rates in Brazil and in Latin America as a whole have decreased sharply in the last 10 years. By what Roissy writes, DC should be placed alongside Rio in violence levels, adn Detroit is on par with the most violent cities in Brazil (a list that doesn’t include Rio)
Third, the upper class may not pass the one drop rule, but the upper class in Brazil constitutes the most beautiful population on earth . How it became so, is a mistery. But here there are no Obsidians. Every men, balck or white, accepts that white women are far superior than balck women. The indian and african ancestry made two extremely important modifications in the European women in brazil: melanin made women here age much better, and only a small amount of melanin (say, 5% of non white ancestry), is enough to avoid that Russian tragedy of sudden and hard aging of women. Also, the Non white ancestry made women more curvy, gave that guitar looking body with the most perfect Waist-to-Hip ratio on earth. Of course there are lots of Scarletts here, with grotesque WtH ratios, but if African curves are mixed with a 90% or above european ancestry, we get the perfect blend.
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WRT violence, it is easy avoidable. It is a matter of knowing where you are and what time is it. it makes people more cunning. Violence is a darwinian selector of who should leave descendants. South African style violence, a light genocide against whites, is a different matter, it destroys the cognitive elite that makes the place works.
And violence in Brazil is mostly city-of-God style, balcks and mulattos killing blacks and mulattos.
There is over taxation, but mostly to pay for the pensions of old white people. But without a protestant ethic, there is also mass-tax evasion, so things are even. And living here allows you access to a gigantic pool of uber hot women.
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The border isn’t going to be shut down, ever, for any reason. If the flu epidemic gets out of control in Mexico, you can bet that Obama will go on TV and tell us we have to let tens of millions of Mexicans in for “humanitarian reasons,” to get treatment that’s not available in their own country.
Make no mistake, the government’s unwillingness to enforce our borders and immigration laws is no mistake – this is being done to us on purpose. I’m no conspiracy whacko, but when you get the leadership of both political parties, big business, big education, organized labor, big religion, big philanthropy, and the mainstream media all in agreement on an issue, that should tell you that something is rotten.
Our government and our elites are hostile to us. Ask yourself a question: does B. Obama strike you as patriotic? How about first lady Omarosa? I didn’t think so.
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WRT violence, it is easy avoidable. It is a matter of knowing where you are and what time is it. it makes people more cunning. Violence is a darwinian selector of who should leave descendants.
In a way I have similar view on violence. Peace makes men soft. But this is very important — there are two modes of a (slighlty) violent society: an open market on violence, and anarcho-tyranny.
In the olde Wild West, Somalia, Iraq, have a free and open market on violence. You live with the possibility of death, but you are free to retaliate, organize, form posses, etc. You’re allowed to get tribal on the muthafukas. It’s a man’s world there, baby!
In anarcho-tyrannies, in contrast, such as in the U.K. (the most loathsome place on this planet) and most Western nations in which diversity is vibrantly blossoming, you have a de-facto Eloi class of people peryed on by Morlocks with impunity.
The reason they are made to be Eloi is because the full power of the state prevents them from retaliating, organizing, forming posses, gettin’ tribal, etc. Even publically discussing the existence of Morlocks can get you in prison.
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Obsidian said:
“So, I kinda see Obama as White America’s way to seek racial/racist absolution, as well as to kinda wash its hands of the whole thing by saying to the rest of Black America, “See! If you just “tone down” all that Black stuff and work hard, you too can succeed!””
Obsidian — I usually agree with you here, but on this I think you’re wrong. I’ve heard your argument before from the Af-Am community and I think it’s wrongheaded.
Here’s why: ALL MEN have to sell out, to some degree, to succeed in mainstream politics (or business for that matter). As an Italian, I couldn’t exemplify stereotypes and start taking about Italian power and get taken seriously on the national stage. It’s the same with any ethnic group.
Presidents are elected to represent a country, not a special interest group. The fact that a man who represent only 16 percent of the country managed to pull off what Obama did says volumes about how open-minded people really are.
And by the way, he might not exactly be Jesse Jackson when you compare “blackness,” but put Obama next to the Bushes or Reagan and there is a huge cultural difference, esp. when they talk casually. I all ethnicities need to drop the charges of “sell out,” and look at the bigger picture. I think Mario Cuomo is a milquetoast but his success opened the door for mine.
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“Revolution”
hah
Only if power is permanently lost to PS3s
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“It’ll be a bit tougher for Haiti. But I think it *can* happen.”
Yep, any day now, you idiot.
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Don’t worry roissy, not all is lost.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/health/29flu.html?_r=1&hp
my 2 cents:
-this whole story is typical, overexaggerated, fill the vacuum scary evening news stuff
-if there were 1,000 or more deaths, border control WOULD probably start to get very aggressive, very fast. Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if we invaded the damn country. At the 1,000 mark, nationwide panic would be political suicide to ignore.
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Whether this flu does a lot of damage or only a litte, Roissy is right to point out that the US Government simply doesn’t have the ability to do anything to contain it. Political constraints have led to a bloated, sprawling, but entirely innefected government. They can’t even maintain basic law and order in our most valuable property, our cities. They fucked up Katrina royally. Do we really expect any better if we had a real pandemic on our hands.
Meanwhile, Hong Kong has technology that takes ever individuals facial temperature in the Airport. Democracy has finally weakened our government to the point where we seriously ought to be thinking about revolution.
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“Whether this flu does a lot of damage or only a litte, Roissy is right to point out that the US Government simply doesn’t really want to do anything to contain it.”
There, fixed that for you. Better dead than not diverse!
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That’s basically what I meant. The two statements are one and the same.
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Several points.
Dave Alex, thanks for the quick Haitian history explainer. Looks like what I wrote wasn’t that far off the mark afterall. 🙂
Tarl, of course the Black folks you met at school are “real”, and I reject the notion that only Black folks from the inner city are “legit”. There may be cultural differences, but neither group is “less” Black as a result singularly. My point is that few Whites in DC ever spend time in its Black parts, and that’s not by accident, and on some levels I think that’s sad, especially given the location as the nations capital city.
Whiskey, we agree on many counts. However, as one who grew up on Snoop Dogg, and knew who Marvin Gaye was very well, I think the idea that hip hop is the sole reason for the collapse of Black America is a bit much. In fact, in many ways, not all, but many, hip hop kind of exposed some ugly truths about America that we don’t like to see, especially as it relates to Urban America, which in many ways, was abandoned in the late 70s and early 80s.
I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, but a good example of what I mean is a tv show called The Wire. Its critically acclaimed, and I recently saw the creator of the show, David Simon, in an interview on tv. He was a career reporter for one of Baltimore’s big newspapers, and said flatout, that what the show tries to present is the slow death of Urban, Inner city America, which is predominantly Black and Brown. And he went on further to say, that those Blue collar White guys you mentioned are getting the shaft too, in some ways even worse than the NAMs. One of the episodes of The Wire featured this, in the form of a White union boss who was being squeezed by the law for the usual union hanky panky. That’s when he told them that no one gave a damn when they were being strangled by elites.
Anyway, my point is that, as Simon noted, those Black and Brown kids aint stupid, they know what’s going on, and this is often reflected in the lyrics of hip hop. Not all of it, I have serious issues and concerns with a good bit of it too. But anyone who takes the time to actually research the matter will see what I mean.
O
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but now we have Obama to save us
all is well
war is peace
lol
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Obsidian said:
To answer your point about rubbing elbows with NAMs, our “civil rights” laws deny the historic right of free association, so it is both illegal and abhorred by our “civil society” for a group of Whites to segregate themselves away (it’s kosher for Jews though). As the country becomes more non-White, it will become more difficult to escape the third worlding of this country unless you have wealth or power. The old White ethnic neighborhoods of yesteryear that provided community and safety for non-elites are now a forbidden dream.
So why think about these issues? Because we’re rationally analyzing the future of this country based on current trends and don’t like what we see.
We already have plenty of evidence in from many areas of the country, like California, Florida, Arizona, New York, with the following results: wire-pulling-elites-living-in-gated-communities-with-lots-of-wealth? life is goooood! middle-and-working-class? life is not so goooood!
I personally get along well with foreigners and have always been interested in foreign cultures, languages and peoples. But in the same way that I respect those other groups and countries and don’t think globalism should level all countries into controlled consumer cattle, or that the US should be imperialistically dictating to them, I respect my own nation and people and don’t want to see it heavily colonized and transformed into something alien, particularly since this has been engineered very dishonestly. It’s now “racist” to speak out against the transformation, while in 1965 it was promised that no such transformation would occur, in order to pass the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. Likewise with the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 where a “one-time” amnesty would be granted in exchange for future immigration control and border enforcement. They’ve lied through their teeth every time and deserve no more trust or credibility.
An example of what our elites have planned for us comes from america2050.org which is sponsored by some left wing foundations, global corporations and the Jewish J.M. Kaplan Fund.
Here’s a quote:
Look at the passion the Jewish J.M. Kaplan Fund has for “Migrations”:
I wonder if the Kaplan family support the same policies for Israel that they do for the US? We’ve got plenty of third world non-Jews we could ship off to Israel so they too can enjoy the magically enriching benefits of diversity (Our Greatest Strength! TM) and marginalization within their own land.
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Days, the latter GW Bush in his heyday probably could get along better with most ghetto kids than Barry O.
GWB was a a party animal and bad boy drug user for years before finding Jesus, but Barry O. was a nerdy kid trying to be cool for years. Hence why he went by the beta “Barry” (remember the simpsons quote about the gays stealing all the good B-names?) and then went to Barack when he started this “community organizing” crap.
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Scotch Fiend,
Thanks for taking the time out. Much appreciated, but I’m wondering if you could help me w/something.
In your view, why do you think Jews are pushing so hard for immigration, particularly non-White? What’s in it for them?
And two, I’m not seeing much evidence that there’s a move afoot to deny White folks’ right to freedom of association. White folks are pretty much free to live and work wherever they want, and if anything I’d make the reverse argument, that Blacks are prevented from freely associating with Whites, for example, not being able to live among certain groups of Whites or going to certain schools and the like.
So, I’m hoping to hear back from you on this.
Thanks.
O
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Obsidian–
Just because that’s true doesn’t mean that importing more peasant class and heavily Indio Mexicans and other Central Americans isn’t going to increase the threat and actual violence and car theft etc. perpetrated on whites and Asians as well as to the NAMs that are citizens now.
As well more police and more prisons cost lots of money.
It’s bad for the country as a whole. Any conceivable honest argument that it was good is shot all to hell during a time of very high and quickly rising unemployment, which is projected to get to and stay above 10% for some time by many economists. (Actually such arguments were always shot to hell when one considers the full costs of such immigration, including all the additional governmental services they require, from subsidized health care to education to prisons, and so on.
Yet Obama is poised to try to steamroll through an amnesty bill. He should be pushing through a mass deportation bill, and related measures including employer clamp downs.
Most people do support much tougher border measures and would also deportation, or would if the media would stop so nearly universally treating the subject as anathema and horrifically draconian.
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“In your view, why do you think Jews are pushing so hard for immigration, particularly non-White? What’s in it for them?”
I was wondering the same thing. Is it just a historical artifact of Jewish migrants largely adopting a pro-immigration stance since they were themselves migrants or do you see something more sinister?
Mencius Moldbug thinks that high IQ Jews simply excelled at assimilating themselves into elite society even to the point of out-competing the natives northeastern intellectual power elite (not an unexpected outcome given their advantages in the tail of the IQ spectrum). Thus, they adopted the values of the New England and New York Progressives, only adding a bit of provincial enthusiasm (which we now see in European Anti-Americanism). I have to admit, this makes sense to me.
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Doug,
Absolutely, I am all for ending illegal immigration and for restricting legal immigration from all countries until such time as we’ve been able to properly sort things out along the lines you’ve mentioned, and as well, wrt the drug cartel issue, this Swine Flu piece, and until those who are legitimately here have been properly assimilated into American culture and ways.
My only point was to note that those who cry the loudest about these things are more often than not far removed from ever having to deal with being shot, carjacked and the like. That’s interesting to me.
O
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Obsidian, you actually ask a good question:
“In your view, why do you think Jews are pushing so hard for immigration, particularly non-White? What’s in it for them?
The problem is that it’s more complex than this. I can responded with other questions:
“Why wouldn’t they ?”
and
“Why do you assume they wouldn’t push so hard for this ”
and a third question:
“Which Jews are you talking about, anyway?”
The last one is important, one observes that not all Jews “push so hard” for immigration, anyway.
There are problems in generalizing dispositions and will of entire, somewhat diverse, populaces (in this case “Jews”) – or generalizing the existence of a beneficial upside to this group, from certain actions.
Everyone but the most willfully disingenuous realizes that all generalizations have some grain of truth, sometimes large grains.
Gross generalizations results in sloppy thinking.
Figuring this out is liberating.
not all Jews think alike
not all blacks think alike,
not all Muslims think alike,
and sure as the sun rises, not all whites think alike – even the ones who ostensibly hail from the same political circles.
Our country’s changed so radically in even the last 30 years that few people have more than a fuzzy picture of how things were previously. Plus what dim memories they will have is filtered by class factors. Solid decent working class people even going back 40 years would have a different spin on things that upper class Wasp elites from that time.
One thing consistent with both Lefties and Righties is a selective reading of history. Willful in the case of the disingenuous, and sincerely unconscious in the case of all others.
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“remember the simpsons quote about the gays stealing all the good B-names?”
No. Watch the episode again.
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Lupo—
I agree that cultural folkways are very important. They tend to follow ethnicities though. Thomas Sowell is the man in showing just how important – and usually but not always durable — ethnic cultural pathways and the cultural capital that they carry are to the groups themselves and to the countries they inhabit. I’ve talked before about his great trilogy on this very subject: Migration and Culture; Conquest and Culture; and Race and Culture.
We do need to realize though that the largest ethnic/racial group in Trinidad and Tobago are Asian Indians, while groups other than Africans and Indians make up about 20% of the population. These include whites of French, British and Portuguese origin, Chinese and some others. It looks from the Wikipedia article like blacks (or mixes whose heritage is primarily black) make up only about 35% or the population, though it isn’t specific about that WikiP Link.
See La Griffe du Lion’s “Smart Fraction” article. Easily googleable.
Haiti just demolished it’s cultural capital during the white genocide and widespread killings of mulattoes that followed it’s struggle for independence from Napoleon lead France. (Josephine came from a planter family on Martinique.) Many other mulattoes fled, a good number of them to New Orleans. The mulattoes that were left did tend to form Haiti’s upper class (though occasionally the top man was fully black), but there doesn’t seem to have been enough social capital in this group or it wasn’t large enough for Haiti to have ever since been anything but a basket case.
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What are you excpecting then?
Call the Mexicans in and sacrifice that million of Americans! Well, it would be better to infect just Obama’s friends in Washington or the Joos in NYT… but them, it’s fairer to sacrifice those who elected them! And buy their shit.
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How could Haiti be anything worth it?
Haiti simply cutted off from European Civilisation. They actually killed all the whites in place and created their own black Nation.
What result would be possible if not a complete Africanisation of the country? That’s what happened, and now – without any kind of European influence – they are the laughing stock of the blacks of Dominican Republic, who are more mixed and more in touch with European Civilisation.
Those in turn, are worst than Mexico. Which is worst than Brazil. Which is worst than Canada…
Europe is the light that shines, Haiti just opted to kill the light for once, while the others maintained which little light they had (Dominincan Republican).
Or otherwise, I am the racist… yeah, it must explain everything in the world…
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“I hope, when your children are coughing up whole enchiladas as their lives are slipping away, you think long and hard about hiring that illegal maid to clean your SWPL vomit off the kitchen floor.”
So rude!
I am against immigration and I have a black maid (I’m in Europe). She is sweet at heart but very dumb. I like her, but I don’t consider that her and her family’s presence here are “legetimate” although maybe legal. That’s the kind of detachment that’s needed.
She could also be
1) Younger
2) Slimer
3) Fuck! I hoped she would be a young Eastern European (uuu Roissy, wouldn’t that be delightfull!?) or a cute South American: Brazilian or Argentinian or something. In the end, I get a fifty years old, fat and dumb African women that changes everything from its place. Damn! At least she’s a good person at heart.
It also sucks that she cannot speak without screaming…
Damn, a young Eastern European or an Euro-Brazilian would be awsome!
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“My only point was to note that those who cry the loudest about these things are more often than not far removed from ever having to deal with being shot, carjacked and the like. That’s interesting to me.”
Yeah, ’cause yo neighborhood be like Mogadishu an’ sheet. Those that cry the loudest about immigration are the farthest removed? Interesting because you can’t understand why people would want to preserve the good thing they have? Right, because if we don’t live in Detriot/Juarez we can’t have any idea of what those places are like and how the people that live there are destructive losers. My neighborhood is nice, I want to keep it that way. I know what kind of useless feeders would fuck it up.
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Valiant post by Roissy here folks.
Its ridiculous to not have control over a border to begin with, especially when your country has been a target of terrorism. In light of a potential pandemic, its criminally negligent. We are dealing with a new flu strain. It might only kill 100 people in the next month and that will be that, but then again it might mutate and kill 100,000 people who could have lived. We dont know yet, but its always best to be cautious with bugs. I couldn’t care less how much feelings we hurt, bugs have to be contained.
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http://www.nypost.com/seven/04282009/news/regionalnews/17_more_swine_flu_cases_confirmed_in_nyc_166641.htm
These people bring disease. They are unsanitary. They are a health hazard. We will pay for them and not just monetarily.
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@ gig
You certainly are right that Brazil will not lead the world in pretty much anything of importance or great consequence.
This despite being the world’s fifth most populous country, and the fifth largest country by geographical area, along with its abundant natural resources.
And you rightly acknowledge the fact that the upper class “whites” possess quite significant degrees of black and indigenous admixture.
While it’s understandable that you, a Brazilian, would extol the beauty of the upper class “whites” as a matter of pride, you should add that just as this admixture affects external appearances, it also affects mental capacity and ability, as well as emotional/cognitive/behavioral traits. These “internal” characteristics, of course, are not readily apparent as the external physical traits are.
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Ship Em Back,
Actually, the criminal element in the hood is a numerical minority; most people there are law abiding, hardworking, decent folk. Trust me, I’m there a lot more than you are.
There entire blocks that are kept clean, houses are kept looking nice, and there is a high level of civic engagement, such as voter registration drives, block cleanups, and cooperative ventures with the police-oh, and btw, the biggest proponents of “racial profiling” are BLACK FOLKS, because they understand better than most, where the trouble is coming from.
I just grow tired of so many people, like yourself, who cling so hard to stereotypes, and the worst ones, about Black folks. Sure, they hold a bit of truth to them, but they also have to be handled with care if they are to truly be any good.
O
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Earlier:
“Tarl, of course the Black folks you met at school are “real”, and I reject the notion that only Black folks from the inner city are “legit”.”
Just now:
“Trust me, I’m there a lot more than you are. ”
I’m sure you are, I’m sure you are…Does driving through “Little Mogadishu,” say twice a week, supply you with enough legitimacy? Gots to stay legit.
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@ Obsidian
“Actually, the criminal element in the hood is a numerical minority; most people there are law abiding, hardworking, decent folk. Trust me, I’m there a lot more than you are.”
Go take some math and statistics courses.
Your experience walking around “the hood” and witnessing happy, pleasant scenes does not mean you can dismiss decades of hard, numerical data.
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bigelow
nerdism plus resentment don’t play well with women
forget about statistics and math, unless they are being used to get you money. Get some black friends, hear some hip-hop (Akon and 50 cent specially), be nice, watch your steps when walking close to da hood and vote in the most conservative candidate available whenever you have the chance.
stop complaining about happier peoples that don’t generate technical advancement. Travel to South America, or Eastern Europe (which is much more advanced, let’s recognize, and this is highly correlated with its whiteness) and enjoy the explosion in slutiness around the globe.
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on April 28, 2009 at 4:00 pm gig
Stupid post.
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Master dogen But what is this “price to be paid” you are talking about
Google Haitian Double indemnity.
I’m not necessarily making the argument that Haiti’s blackness is the reason for it’s turmoil. But there has to be an explanation
Haiti shares the island with Dominican Republic. The island was formally(?) known as the isle of Hispaniola before the French took possession of the Haiti. Looking at the island from above, the DR side has very lush vegetation while the vegetation of Haiti is very sparse and dead looking. I can’t recall Haiti having any natural resources (but Japan doesn’t either).
After the Haitians brook free of France with the help of Toussiant L’overcher and others, they burned the crops. This was a very bad move but as former slaves they resented the crops because of what they stood for. Two, Haiti was the second country in the Western Hemisphere after the United States to get it’s freedom. Those in charge, didn’t look to highly upon that development.
Haitian leaders went from one European country to another and even *Russia* seeking to recognized as a country. No European country was willing to do so. Finally France agreed to under the condition that it be repaid for all of it’s lost crops and load of other stuff. France came up with some inflated number and IIRC, Haiti only recently paid of the debt also known as double indemnity. Keep in mind that Haitian independence took place 1804.
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Obsidian,
Thanks for your courteous reply. Let me answer your questions in two posts. Here’s part one.
I’d be interested in hearing your ideas and opinions about the content of my posts.
I’m also curious if you believe our “civil society” is anti-White or not (e.g. Hollywood, mainstream media, academia, K12 education, government, etc)
Let me answer your second question first. Freedom of association is being denied to Whites when they can’t create and participate in ethnocentric organizations, either legally or through social sanction. For example, the typical university has dozens of ethnic organizations catering to Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Jews (as an ethnic group) and so on, but if Whites even establish non-racial organizations like Youth for Western Civilization, they are excoriated and shunned as racists and get their own $PLC bulletins. Again, this is NOT a White group, but they are effectively treated as if they were and considered beyond the pale.
So if Whites tried to establish White Engineers, White Student Association, White Lawyers, etc, they would be condemned as bigoted Nazis and their future career prospects harmed. Such are the blatant double standards governing our “civil society”. Another example, in the House of Representatives, the Congressional Black Caucus has refused to seat White representatives who represent majority Black districts. Can you imagine our “civil society” approving of remotely similar behavior for any White group (such White groups aren’t even allowed right now, meaning, they are technically legal, but anyone participating in an explicitly White ethnocentric organization is outcast as a racist Nazi, particularly by Jews, who have TONS of rabidly ethnocentric organziations for themselves)?
Another facet to traditional freedom of association was the ability of neighborhoods to legally control their ethnic or racial composition. This was overturned in the 1960s and unscrupulous real estate moguls used these legal tools to destroy ethnic neighborhoods, while making handsome profits and ensuring a constant supply of new customers with Whites continually being pushed to new, temporarily safe, expensive areas. In many cases remaining Whites and their children would suffer violence as the neighborhoods deteriorated. Detroit is a classic, if extreme, example. “White flight” was really ethnic cleansing against Whites in many cases.
You yourself have discussed the violent nature of Black urban areas in previous posts. Frankly many Whites want nothing to do with such environments. If a certain subgroup of Blacks prefer a thuggish and violent lifestyle, I’m OK with them pursuing such a life within their own spaces, but Whites, particularly non-elite, non-wealthy, Whites should also be allowed to pursue a healthy, safe environment for themselves and their families and defend their own spaces against violent aggression.
The next facet of your point revolves around the replacement for traditional freedom of association by the new implicit freedom based on wealth. So wealthy people can escape to nice areas filled with nicer people (excepting the recent trend toward Section 8 housing that intermixes some of the thuggish subclasses into areas they otherwise couldn’t afford, although they normally target the middle class and not the rich). California now has many gated communities for just this purpose, analogous to long standing Latin American patterns for separating the classes. These were unnecessary before our recent “enrichment” by diversity.
So you are correct that since a larger number of Blacks are less wealthy, they are more limited in where they may live. It’s not a legal restriction but an economic restriction that statistically affects Blacks more than most other populations.
One reason Blacks have a bad reputation as a group is their tolerance and coddling of the thuggish subclass responsible for so much crime and violence. Most Black leadership defends and excuses their bad behavior instead of properly condemning it. I also believe a disturbing portion of the non-thuggish Black majority shares this attitude and sympathizes with them, at least when they’re sticking it to Whitey. Given all the anti-White propaganda coursing through our popular culture, educational system and so on, it’s not too surprising that so many Blacks have a lot of anti-White hostility.
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Obsidian,
Here’s part two dealing with your first question.
The “short” answer for why Jews have both historically and currently are pushing so hard for third world immigration into America is that they consider this in their group interests. Professor Kevin MacDonald has documented in great detail in three books written during the 1990s. They benefit while displacing their traditional competitors, Whites, who they distrust as potential Nazis. This is demonstrated by a notorious quote by Jewish activist Earl Raab, from Chapter 7 of “Culture of Critique”):
They are benefiting by displacing the traditional WASP leadership of the country while they fit in as “White” even though they have a great deal of hostility for the traditional population, which is frequently masked euphemistically as contempt for “flyover country”. Many Jewish commentators including David Gelernter, Ben Stein and Michael Medved have discussed this.
An example of very disproportionally Jewish representation is their enrollment in top-tier universities, which then provide the most prestigious manpower for other elite institutions in government, media, academia, business, Wall Street, etc.
Look at the numbers of Jews attending various elite universities: THAT’S DISPROPORTIONATE! Where’s the liberal and diversicrat outrage for 2% of the population taking 38% of Northwestern, 33% of Washington University (St. Louis), 30% of Yale, 28% of the University of Pennsylvania, 25.5% of Harvard, 25% of Brown, Columbia and Cornell, 21% of NYU, 18.3% of Michigan, etc? (NOTE: these are all outstanding schools and nearly all outstanding schools have way more than 2% Jews: do your own search: e.g. Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is about 10% Jewish as is UC Berkeley: Those are large campuses that are 5 times disproportionate). Since Jews are categorized as White it turns out that (non-Jewish) Whites are strongly underrepresented at many elite universities, if we want to follow the affirmative action bean counting so sacred to our “civil society”.
Of course, since Ashkenazi (European) Jews have an average IQ of around 110, it is to be expected that they will be somewhat overrepresented among the intellectual elites, but part of their disproportion also comes from ethnocentrism. For example, several years ago a study was done analyzing the citations of scientific papers and they discovered that Jewish authors tended to disproportionally cite other Jews and cite them more heavily, which could enhance their careers, since a major metric of academic success was how frequently your publications were cited.
Historically Jews across the broad spectrum of beliefs and organizations were nearly universally supportive of scrapping the traditional immigration restrictions, like the national origin quota, while in modern times, it is still extremely popular, but some dissenters have appeared, mostly because they fear the impact of Muslim immigration.
If not for the Jewish activism in promoting these policies, it never would’ve happened as thoroughly documented by Kevin MacDonald in his The Culture of Critique with Chapter 7 focusing on their role in overturning the national origin quota in 1965.
An excellent source for further exploring these issues is The Occidental Observer which contains many articles with copious links to additional sources of information. A basic philosophy of this site is that Whites should organize and behave ethnocentrically just as much as other groups, like Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Jews, are allowed and encouraged too.
Our civil society is now explicitly rejecting the color-blind society. For example, consider the many publically funded institutes at universities staffed by taxpayer-funded academics, like The Kirwan Institute.
Here’s a full quote for context with particularly interesting parts in bold:
Note that brazen advocacy and politics is pursued at an academic institution funded with public money and this is only one of many. Here’s another one that also lists further such scams.
Of course for all their happy academic talk about “context”, their idea of fairness and balance is Whiteness Studies, which is a direct attack on Whites, our identity, history, traditions and peoplehood, in constrast to EVERY other ethnic studies, which openly advocate for their ethnic group.
Consider one of the flagships of the Whiteness Studies movement, racetraitor.org:
Yeah, right. “White trash” shares a more exalted status than Oprah, Chris Rock, Michael Jordon, Colin Powell or Barack Obama.
I don’t see these academics ferociously calling on anyone to smash the Black race, which they would do if they were logically consistent. Likewise, Jews are much more successful than Whites (and, by transitivity, vastly more so than Blacks), yet I don’t see any of them trying to deconstruct Jewishness or dismantle Jewish privilege.
F*** them and their double standards and hypocrisy.
Kevin MacDonald documents how substantial Jewish influence was mostly responsible for these “cultures of critique” (of Whites).
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Carleton Putnam on Haiti:
“Overseas, in the only completely Negro republic in the Western Hemisphere, the Republic of Haiti, where the Negro had been on his own, so to speak, since 1844 one found the following situation from a self-government standpoint. After the Negroes massacred the last of the White population in 1804, Haiti remained a part of Santo Domingo until 1844 when it became a separate “republic.” Between 1844 and 1915 only one Haitian President completed his term of office. Fourteen were ousted by armed uprisings, one was blown up, one was poisoned and another was hacked to pieces by a mob.
“Between 1908 and 1915 the revolutions and assassinations increased so rapidly that a United States military occupation was needed to restore order. This lasted from 1915 to 1934. Thereafter followed twelve years of rule by a mulatto elite which ended in the resumption of control by the black military in 1946. Since then wholesale corruption and political murder have been the rule.{4}
“Such was the more recent record of the Negro in the Western Hemisphere, and it could be duplicated on a descending scale throughout Africa”
“Q:Haitian dictators get chopped up. So do Italian and German ones (and even ancient Roman ones). Comment? ”
“A:The difference is in the frequency and regularity.”
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/putnam.htm
Putnam on Liberia, Haiti and black civilization:
“Undoubtedly, education in many Negro schools can be improved. Undoubtedly, economic opportunities for Negroes can be increased and cultural opportunities for them expanded. Most of all, solutions to their crime rate, irresponsibility, moral delinquency and other limitations can be sought. These are the areas in which the Negro can be helped. In the long run, it does him only harm to encourage him to blame others for his own shortcomings. It is particularly harmful to encourage ingratitude, insolence and aggressive imposition on the whites of the South.
“Under equalitarian influence, with a strong assist from communism, it has become the fashion in the North to regard the Southern Negro as the victim of oppression, while the truth is that the Negro in the South is on the whole the product of a friendliness and helpfulness unequalled in any comparable instance in all history. As one writer has put it “Nowhere else in the world, at any time of which there is record, has a helpless, backward people of another color been so swiftly uplifted and so greatly benefited by a dominant race.” The North has no conception of the accomplishment, for it is only where the race is present in large numbers (in the South it makes up over a third of the population) that the problem and the burden really exist. The worst conditions of slavery in the South never approached the horrors from which the American Negro was delivered when he was removed from the slavery of his own race in Africa to slavery under the white man. Wholesale crucifixions to appease the Negro’s gods was one of them.
“What happens to the Negro even after he has had the advantage of long contact with white men and is then thrown on his own resources is well illustrated by Liberia. Until the League of Nations stopped it, the upper classes there, who had come from America to implant American ideals, enslaved the lower classes. A glance at Haiti is also instructive. Although bolstered constantly by help from the United States, Haitian civilization is little above that of Africa. Illiteracy and poverty among the masses are almost universal. The remains of the earlier French civilization have fallen into ruin. Except where restored by American business enterprise, the bridges and roads are nearly impassable. The religion is Voodoo. Such is the best example available on earth of what a black civilization, led by mulattoes, can accomplish when left to itself.
“In the southern United States by way of contrast the Negro lives in greater luxury than many whites in foreign countries. He often drives expensive, white-built motor cars and occupies well-constructed, white-financed houses. In fact, in South Carolina alone more Negroes own automobiles than all the people of Russia, outside of Soviet officials. The Southern Negro has the advantages of white medicine and white-equipped hospitals……”
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDFs/Race_and_Reason.pdf
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Scotchfiend Let me answer your second question first. Freedom of association is being denied to Whites when they can’t create and participate in ethnocentric organizations
I’ve seen bulidings and read about Irish,Italian and German American assoications.
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some sympathetic Leader of The Free World must quickly act to open our borders to these racially victimized and deprived Haitians
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@chicnoir
You’re correct that such national-origin organizations are permissible. But most American Whites have ancestors from many different European countries. Many government and corporate forms, including for new jobs, ask me if I’m “white”, not of Irish or German descent. And since White people are demonized by Hollywood and our media and legally discriminated against by our government, this only strengthens our pan-European identity as Whites.
Some Jews argue that the Palestinian people don’t really exist because they supposedly don’t have a historic existence. Well, given their treatment over the last 120 years by Zionists, even if they didn’t really exist two centuries ago, they sure do now.
The existence of White identity is much, much older than the anti-White leftists claim, as discussed in the comments on this thread. A few more comments down from this one, I give some excerpts and some google book searches anyone can run to see some proof.
If the pan-African Black identity is “celebrated”, then White should be too.
Likewise given a Jewish identity encompassing Mizrahis, Ashkenazis, athiests, Buddhists (still considered Jews) and the full spectrum of Jewish religious belief from Reconstructionist to Haredi Jews.
Likewise for creating a synthetic “Asian” identity for American consumption. In Asia, they consider themselves Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Filipino, etc, first, second and third over pan-Asian.
The key insight that killed my lifelong belief in the color-blind society was that the left, as it takes over our “civil society”, is motivated by hatred of Whites instead of love of non-Whites, and this is reflected in the increasing anti-White policies, rhetoric and ideology. The color-blind rhetoric was just a tool to dispossess Whites of their traditional society and as we are marginalized, ethnic politics will likely rule the day and Whites will be a hated scapegoat class, similar to the kulaks genocided in the millions by Stalinist Jews in the 1930s.
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Scotch Fiend,
Thanks again for taking the time out to be so thorough in your replies. I’m going to try to touch upon many of the points you raised in my own reply.
To pick up on Chic’s observation, I too have noted various White ethnic organizations and groups, and here in Philly, they are quite well known; the Knights of Columbus, the Knights of Hybernia, the various Polish groups, and so on; the Mummer’s Parade is a Philly staple and is an overt showing of “White Pride” taking place annually for decades, if not several centuries if memory serves, and more-and that’s just in one US city(!). So, I’m having a tough time seeing how Whites are being prevented to freely associate w/each other, legally or otherwise.
I think the main problem w/the YWC group is that it has the appearance, based on your description, of dishonesty more than anything else; “Western Civilization” is just another way of saying “White People” in the minds of most hearing that, and such a move suggests a kind of nefarious slight of hand that raises the spector of something more going behind its closed doors. In a country like the USA, that raises concerns. I think f they had simply called their group “Young White Americans” or something like that, w/an expressed aim to educated younger White Americans about the key contributions and the like of White Americans, I honestly don’t think that big a stink would have been made of things; it certainly would not have bothered me.
Having said that however, it must also be noted that lots of the problem the “White groups” seem to get, is the sense that either their rank and file, or their leadership, kind of emit an “anti-non White” vibe, particularly Black and Brown folks; being pro-White or anything else, does not necessarily mean being anti-something or someone else. But often such groups do have that kind of vibe which makes it problematic to gain credibility.
This leads me to my next point, that of the notion that there is some kind of apples to apples parity between the White, and here I’ll just focus on the Black, populations for the moment. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Take your mention of the CBC-while I do see the interesting problem they had when a White Congressman was elected w/a majority Black district and was barred from joining because HE was White (and I thought that was a wrong move, btw, they should have admitted him on the basis of his district), the main issue is that Whites, particularly males, have *always* had free and unfettered access to the Halls of Congress. This has not been so for Black people, as you well know, the last time Black people were elected to national offices aside from the modern era, was Reconstruction after the Civil War, and even then it was fleeting and brief. The CBC, some of who’s members I’ve actually met at Washington, DC, isn’t a group out to “stick it to Whitey” but rather to attempt to form a block of votes so as to be better in a position to advocate for the interests and needs of Black folks. Now, one could argue whether such a strategy is effective, and I’ve done just that myself; but I don’t see any malicious intent on their part.
Still, just on principle, I don’t have a problem w/Whites getting together to “hype” themselves up, all groups do that to a lesser or greater degree. But I honestly don’t think that’s the problem of White folks. Their problem is the neverending status war going between certain factions in White America, which has in more recent years become more visible and apparent. The SWPL crowd, the elites, Jewish and non, and White Women’s groups are the major enemies to “White” interests, and can and have done more real damage than anything the CBC could do. And, as Sailer noted to Taylor in their online debate, it seems there isn’t a heck of a lot of interest on the part of White nationalists to tackle this much more potent enemy of theirs.
As for your comments about Blacks and crime, let me say this-again, the facts are that only a small minority of Black America are actually out there doing the terrorizing, and truth be told, there’s been a good deal of Black Flight in an attempt to get away from such elements in the inner cities over the past few decades.
But you make a highly legitimate point about the overall relative quiet when Black lives are lost everyday in the hood, and as soon as a White officer shoots down a Black, even a criminal one, there is a huge uproar. Its an ugly truth about the human condition, that its easier to vent our anger and angst and rage on “others”; harder to do it to one of our own, even when we know that they mean us no good.
Another factor is fear-the “No Snitchin'” campaign of terror is real. Several people locally have lost their lives, for going public on the actions of known Black criminals. And again I need to point out, that the vast majority of victims of Black criminals, are Black people, accross the board.
Having said all that though, let’s get right to the nub of it-yes, there are still feelings of frustration, anger, recriminations and mistrust on the part of at least some African Americans, and the oft-repeated refrains of “you did it to yourselves!” just aint gonna cut it-not when Whites still do make the final call on what does and does not happen, even in all Black polities. A very curious thing I’ve personally observed with Whites, is their tendency to view life as happening yesterday, thereby completeliy sidestepping all that happened previously. This isn’t something that fosters a healthy understanding between Black and White, and why I reject the “Magical Negro” tack, because rage, anger and the like are part of what makes us human, and when Whites try to suggest, as Andrew E’s citation of Putnam, that Black folk should never be angry for any reason, it actually strips Black folks of their Humanity in ways that even Whites themselves would not accept.
Finally, wrt Jews-again, thanks for taking the time out to give your view, and when one thinks about it, it kinda makes sense, if one accepts that Jews are kinda paranoid as a group. I’m familiar with Kevin MacDonald’s work, though I haven’t read it as extensively as you have. Hmm. Gives me something to think about.
O
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ScotchFiend, excellent arguments, though I’m not committed to any side at this point re. Jewish thing.
One question, is what’s with Jew-Realists (it that’s what to call it) and Israel. One would think that those who wish to separate Jews from whites would support a Jewish homeland. An unsuccessful Israel = Jewish migration to thier “ancestral” homes in Europe. NOt a desired scenario.
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“Most of them are rich ? I somehow doubt it. ”
In the millionaire next door, you can read that a greater percentage of American Haitians are millionaires than any other ethnic group, other than Jews. So, suck on it. Ain’t nuthin wrong with Haitians.
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Population of Trinidad according to the cia world fact book:
“Indian (South Asian) 40%, African 37.5%, mixed 20.5%, other 1.2%, unspecified 0.8% (2000 census) ”
Not 20%. 58%.
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Lupo your full of shit it was the scotts who where one of the richest.
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“”””””””””””””””Scotchfiend,
The key insight that killed my lifelong belief in the color-blind society was that the left, as it takes over our “civil society”, is motivated by hatred of Whites instead of love of non-Whites, and this is reflected in the increasing anti-White policies, rhetoric and ideology. The color-blind rhetoric was just a tool to dispossess Whites of their traditional society and as we are marginalized, ethnic politics will likely rule the day and Whites will be a hated scapegoat class, similar to the kulaks genocided in the millions by Stalinist Jews in the 1930s.””””””””””””””
I think seeing this type of shit happen would make me laugh. Because it would validate my ideas while torturing those who are like but yea there so good. While never standing up for lower class whites. I think it will be great when white goes the way of the dodo.
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Then someone like china can come in and pick up the pieces ie exterminate everyone else to create room for their people. Be some ironic shit.
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Where over here trying to do some kind of wierd experiment in humanity. While they are sitting over there bideing time. Wild shit.
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Gun
You didn’t notice that people ARE the major resource. Chinese people find great pleasure in raising their status through the ownership and manipulation of servants. They use mercantilism as their main weapon of domination. Look around SE Asia. The Chinese rule economically everywhere, and politically many-where. They do this through the use of the natives. What good is a jungle without some locals to cut it down and plant rubber trees?
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Yea mercantilism. True to an extent. But if you can automate processess then you don’t need slaves. I think you can only have utopia with one race it might as well be chinese.
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People used to be the resource. Not needed in the next 30 40 years in mass numbers. Not for war, not for production.
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According to the FBI, for ever fifteen minutes, a white women is raped by a black man in the United States of America while black women being raped by white man amounts to a statistical zero.
Obsidian, to me this seems to be or war or ethnical cleaning or both. What do you, as a black man, have to say?
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Current situation yea chinese are doing the small business thing and taking it to great heights.
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I’m trying to learn from them and all the other people I have seen.
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whites in america lack all that is necessary for a ethnic identity
1- they are affluent. only very small comunities can be affluent and chauvnistic, like the jews, sikhs, parses
2 – they lack a common religion
3 – they may share the english language, but descend from people who spoke different languages.
at least two of those are necessary for an ethnic identity to emerge
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In the mid 14th century the “Black Plague” began to ravage Europe and most the world. Many people got the idea that the local Jewish population must be poisoning the wells, thus causing the great mortality. Pogroms ensued. Several brave church-men including the Pope gently pointed out that the Jews were in fact dying at least as fast anyone else. Some folks had their minds changed by that, but not all.
Israel has within its borders a large and growing population of hostile Arabs both legal and illegal. The overall “modernization” of the social scene in America since the 2nd WW has seen intermarriage rates for Jews stay in the 50% range – which threatens their survival.
Get my point?
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I get it we are going the way of the dodo it’s just painfull to overcome at first. Jews ain’t gonna matter and neither will anyone else.
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Virgin40,
I’d say let’s examine the Black on Black rape rates in relation to the Black on White ones. Of course there’d be fewer White on Black rapes, and any other kind of crimes, for the simple reasons that, one, Whites largely live apart from Blacks, and two, Whites tend to be more affluent than Blacks.
O
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Chic Noir–
That’s entirely because over the years Haitians have cut down almost all the trees on their hill and mountain sides, for firewood etc., which has caused chronic huge mud slides, wiping out vegetation. It was exactly the same ecology to begin with. The divide between Haiti and the DR is along a hill or mountain ridge. Mud slides down on the Haitian denuded side; it doesn’t on the DR side.
The hot headed Haitian revolutionary and genocidal course (leading to a further terror filled exodus of many of it’s most talented mulattoes) was understandable, if genocide ever is. But it was very unwise. The today independent Dominican Republic’s course was far better. As was e.g. Antigua’s. Or for that matter Martinique’s and Guadeloupe’s, which are the equivalent of states of France today (they’re Departments), like Hawaii.
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Chicnoir–
BTW, as you almost certainly know Chic, living in NYC as you do, almost all Dominicans (from the DR, not tiny Dominica) are racially mixed, I’d guess usually somewhere between 2/3 black and 1/3 black. (There is a very small white elite, though rarely in the top position, but rather “behind the throne”.) However Dominicans are usually fiercely Spanish in outlook. They do not consider themselves to be of African origin but rather to be Spanish Europeans in the Americas (though they will admit to some downplayed African blood, “so what”). That’s had a big cultural effect. It’s clear where they look to culturally. (They’re also accepted by Spaniards in Spain in that vein, though with the usual snobbery in some quarters towards “colonials” esp. when the ex colony isn’t richer than the motherland.)
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My point is that few Whites in DC ever spend time in its Black parts, and that’s not by accident, and on some levels I think that’s sad, especially given the location as the nations capital city.
What’s the “black part”? As far as I’m concerned, it’s all “black” inasmuch as it is easily possible (indeed, unavoidable) to see and interact with blacks in any part of DC. Seems like you still don’t think the middle class professional blacks in NW are “really” black.
If you want to say “few whites in DC ever spend time in the low-class, dangerous, filthy, and criminal parts of DC”, well, of course that’s true, but I’m not sure what’s “sad” about that. I don’t ever spend time around low-class, dangerous white criminals, either, and I see no reason to seek them out.
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Yes you do. Only other humans can raise your social status. The purpose of slaves is not their labor, it is the status they confer upon you.
People have all their material needs met. Every endeavor other than the very basics is related to status.
No amount of material wealth will make slaves and servants less valuable.
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Old version utopia I came up with. Everyone is online except like blogs you can choose which world you will live in. A world that is very challenging or a world that is not challenging at all. A world where woman are easy or a world where you need super game. A world where death and destruction is the norm or where people peacefully live out their lives. Each world has a set of rules. That must be followed. You can switch between worlds. Like in peacefull world you can’t kill people not possable. In warlord land you can. Everyone gets to experience whatever side of them they want to. The people are just all plugged in matrix style but they get to pick their poison.
Used to play this out on ultima online. They have the good zone players can’t be killed. Then they have the bad zone players can be killed. The good zone thrived no rules to open a business so everyone had one. No one could take your business away through any means. On the side where you could be killed there where guard zones and people would fight just outside the guard zone to have some safety. Now not many people just wandered around the land in the place where you could kill others. It was barren. So they had to make it where the dungeons in the bad place would give you a shitload of money for going there at all. If you survived and where able to make it back. You could have items worth a lot of loot. These items where brought back to the zone where you couldn’t kill people and sold for money to people who conducted business.
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This can be done basically with having diversity everyone does get their own country or place or world to call there own. They just don’t impact the others that want different things out of their lives. Everyone gets to be free in a world they choose.
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Obsidian,
The quote from Putnam was not to demonstrate that blacks should never feel angry. I posted the quote as a response to your incorrect implication that the relatively poor condition of Haiti is a result of some other factor or combination of factors than the intrinsically lower civilizational abilities of the black race. This fact really goes to the heart of so much debate about race relations in this country which is why I continually bring it up.
I don’t begrudge individual blacks having anger, I’m sure many have faced real and true injustices as individuals. I think though for black america as a whole to nurse an abiding anger for historical America, which is clear to me that they do, I do think is without basis for many of the reasons Putnam mentions.
In actuality, I have much empathy for black americans trying to build a life and an identity in an essentially white society forced by nature and biology to see their white countrymen outperform them in so many areas. For this reason I think a healthy and vibrant Christianity is so important for America’s future, because among many other things, it helps people rise above the material. With respect to this kind of empathy, I think the best I’ve seen this sentiment expressed was in a comment by a reader at Lawrence Auster’s site concering Michelle Obama’s alienation from the white culture at Princeton:
“The depth of her ingratitude, and her sense of having been shafted by America in spite of having a place in the sun carved out for her (a place where a guy like me, no matter what my color, could only ever dream of), is more than merely puzzling. After all, the racial favors didn’t stop at her admission to Princeton.
“In one sense, of course, one would expect Mrs. Obama’s sense of alienation to be profound. I don’t hold that against her as many people seem eager to do. She was the recipient of some very real favoritism that submerged her in an intellectual culture utterly alien to the typical black person’s experience. For that matter, it is unlike most white people’s experience, and there can be little doubt that if I–a poorly educated redneck from South Carolina–were to find myself suddenly immersed in an Ivy League environment, surrounded by diplomats’ sons, competing for the attention of the privileged daughters of America’s upper crust, my feelings of alienation would be similarly deep. For a black person–no matter what his background–I can only imagine that feeling to be much more intense, especially if he is laboring under the certain knowledge that he is has been the beneficiary of a racial spoils system, and is simply not competing on the same scale as the white students whose forebears actually built everything he sees about him.
“How else was she to experience such a life, especially as a young woman, to whom social connections and personal intimacy are of such overriding value? How else, given that she has been reared within a culture of racial hatred and resentment, from which practically every black American acquires his sense of place? To expect Michelle Obama to embrace the white majority as legitimate, to feel a national kinship with them, to revere its all-white founding heroes and to extol its all-white national myth-making, to feel more or less at home in a place like Princeton, would be to expect her to be very, very exceptional.
“I’m willing to extend her that much empathy. But the lesson is that she and her husband can never truly represent–especially in any mystical, transcendent way, as the Obama campaign’s quasi-fascistic cult of leadership would have it–the white majority culture she so bitterly resents. I do not find her feelings of alienation at Princeton at all remarkable, and I certainly don’t see them as some kind of personal failing. The logic of her position in life practically demanded it–she’s just a human being, after all. However, the conclusion one must reach is that she and her husband are entirely unsuited to embody the wider (much less the historic) America in which by her own admission she feels no pride. If her sense of separateness is entirely understandable, so too is it understandable that white Americans cannot look to her husband as properly suited to the role of our First Elected. I sympathize with her estrangement, but my sympathy does not bridge the chasm that lies between us. ”
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009981.html
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My own, true people-of-origin were all southern hill dwellers, red-neck moonshiners, and were never acceptable in the Big House of any respectable land-owning family.
The thing is, my folks were often, any way you look at it , in the wrong. Often they did things to innocent people just because they might have been out of their minds from drinking rotten whiskey or such like. They meant no harm. It was just not safe to attempt to apologize. If you had lived there you would understand this.
Anyway, the best you could do was to jump on your feet and get right in their face and scream out the best argument that popped in to your head at that very second. Big points were given to raw courage.
So far, Obsidian, you are square with me. You are doing the best with what you have got. Which is no different than the rest of us honest ones spewing bs.
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Chic —
BTW, I’ve been to all these places. By sailboats. Chartered and then mine.
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Gunny–
No. Sort of. It comes down to my woman. Sort of. (Isn’t that just the way it always is with males that have their shiite relatively together?)
I’ve done a whole lot of it and loved it, and shared it with several women, well more than that. I have no desire to stop it. But it’s no longer a burning passion.
My love of the last year plus, who’s really amazing, isn’t into it. But she would do it if I insisted. And I think I could convert her, probably, maybe. But I’m having too much fun with her otherwise. And well, it’s yes no longer a pressing dream, just something I love to do.
So now what?
I don’t know.
Any suggestions?
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The swine flu came to the US by way of a bunch of rich kids in Cancun for spring break. The CDC has narrowed down the pandemic to a kid, in a small town, in Mexico, that has a Smithfield (US company) hog farming operation. They know it was transmitted from the hog farming operation to the kid but don’t know how. You can’t blame this one on the Mexicans.
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I’d say mentor it is what I plan on doing if I make it. So far I have helped nudge quite a few people on there way to there dreams. Plus it is amazing how little it can take to make someones dream come true.
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Mud slides down on the Haitian denuded side; it doesn’t on the DR side.
Trees are cut down on the Haitian side primarily to provide for firewood or conversion to charcoal for cooking. In contrast, on the Dominican side, deforestation was avoided by the importation of propane as a substitute for cooking. In turn, the deforestation and mudslides ruins the soil which leads to weaker agricultural yields and increased food importation, and the mudslides end up clogging up dams around the country which affects drinking water safety and electrical supplies. It’s rather sad when my mother notes that the electrical and water supply were more reliable in her youth in the 1960s than in current day Haiti.
Of course, one could argue that Haitian leaders could have done the same things that their somewhat corrupt and barely elected Dominican counterparts did, but as I’ve stated, Haitians view the government merely as a means of becoming wealthy especially when it’s the best and easiest way of doing so. There is no national pride or honour in building the state, and for those of us in the States, both native born and immigrant, there’s a feeling of shame and depression over the terrible state of the country.
leading to a further terror filled exodus of many of it’s most talented mulattoes
That wasn’t until the 1960s under the Duvalier regime, and that was due to the fact that a coup of mostly mulatto generals failed, and he felt that eliminating that segment of the population would remove the threat to his rule. This an severe effect in my mom’s provincial outpost where nearly every mulatto family was affected with the loss of at least one family member.
the relatively poor condition of Haiti is a result of some other factor or combination of factors than the intrinsically lower civilizational abilities of the black race
As a Haitian, I’d argue it’s something else. Jamaica has similar population dynamics (read: mostly black) to Haiti, and yet, their GDP is considerably higher. Stable government, tourism, some industry, and mineral resources make the different.
vibrant Christianity is so important for America’s future, because among many other things, it helps people rise above the material
Christianity won’t solve the problem. For all intents and purposes, the only real yet infeasible solution is to eliminate the black population and forbid those of African ancestry from entering the country. You don’t have to worry about black inequality if there are no black people who will feel envious. Sending them back to Africa is fraught with all sorts of problems (who will accept them and will Africans become vengeful terrorists) that outright elimination would probably solve.
Or for that matter Martinique’s and Guadeloupe’s, which are the equivalent of states of France today (they’re Departments), like Hawaii.
I suspect that those two islands became departments due to their low population, and France’s weird assimilation ethic that one could argue is an over-amplified version of the old American assimilation theory. In other words, it’s the only European society where one can become French, but it’s expected that you do so immediately with little trace of your old ancestry.
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Tarl,
Come on, man, quit playing word games here. You know what I’m talking about. Most of DC’s Black folk live in areas you assidiously avoid. Now, the reasons you cited may, on its face, have merit. But let’s at least acknowledge the basic point-DC has been and remains one of the country’s most segregated cities in the entire country, a powerful commentary given its role as the country’s capital city.
I also want to challenge your view, while not expressly stated, that “errbody” in Black DC is some kind of criminal. Not true, in fact, like most inner city areas, there are hardworking, lawabiding folk who’s only crime is they cannnot afford to get out, like much of the solidly Black Middle Class. I for one see them everyday.
Again, that’s not to say that the Black people you come accross in your travels aren’t “Black” or even “Black enough”; what I am saying is that for so many Whites, what they know about African Americans is often informed by an incomplete and distorted view of things. And that’s sad.
O
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Obsidian,
Check out my experience from a video game above. It more than likely does cross all racial divides people do not like living in areas where they have a probability of getting killed, having there stuff stolen, therebye losing hours of their work. In the game they had to offer tons of money to go to a place like that for the majority of people. To make the risk vs the reward ok and that was in a game. Real life there is no reward. Need to figure a way to change the lifestyle of poor people to mirror the lifestyle of people who have something to lose. The only real way to do that might be religion or maybe jobs. It cannot be in a culture where it is cool to kill people.
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When you change the culture and take away fear from it. Then you have people who develope an interest in building up there areas instead of tearing them down.
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When people have faith that their work will not just be shat on then you have a situation ripe for growth. One man can make a difference mentoring. A thousand black men mentoring could make a huge difference in many young people lives. I highly suggest you attempt to do something like this.
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You could probably even as an intelligent black man strong arm some black elites to cough up some dough. And give 10k micro loans to people to start businesses in the black communities.
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Gunny,
See, this is what I mean when I say that a lot of White folks’ view of Blacks is at best incomplete, akin to looking through a keyhole instead of through a door, or at worst greatly distorted, like looking at yourself in the carnival funnyhouse mirrors.
The fact is that one is hardpressed to find MORE overt signs of religiousity than in the hood, Gunny; just in my neighborhood alone there are something like what, five major churches? I’m not including the storefront kind here, if we include them the number doubles-i’m talking about big, greystone churches. At least five between here and Broad St. At least.
So, this notion that Andrew E spoke to, and to which Dave Alex rightly countered, is a bit much, given that on balance, Black folk are far and away more religious than the average White-moreover, when one travels through thee largely White suburban areas, they are not inundated with a church on every corner. Again, Dave Alex’s remarks comes to mind-this aint about religion to keep the natives quiet. Its about being denied the tools and things that make life worth living.
When are you folks gonna get it?
O
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“”””””””””””””””””””Trees are cut down on the Haitian side primarily to provide for firewood or conversion to charcoal for cooking. In contrast, on the Dominican side, deforestation was avoided by the importation of propane as a substitute for cooking. In turn, the deforestation and mudslides ruins the soil which leads to weaker agricultural yields and increased food importation, and the mudslides end up clogging up dams around the country which affects drinking water safety and electrical supplies. It’s rather sad when my mother notes that the electrical and water supply were more reliable in her youth in the 1960s than in current day Haiti.”””””””””””””””””
Dave take some classes on soil conservation and agriculture. Fuck being an engineer. Go back to Haiti and teach them how to fucking farm again. Remind them how they used to be a big chunk of the bread basket of the world. If you die trying it will not matter. Because you died trying.
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Gunny,
Mentoring programs and the like are rife here in Philly and just about every major inner city you can name. I’ve personally known and been involved with a few myself, officially and otherwise, and they do good work. Again, the problem is something a lot of Whites refuse to look at squarely, and that’s the seriously uneven playing field to begin with, yup I’m gonna say it, beginning with Slavery and exacerbated via Jim Crow. We’ve dealt with it legally (for the second time) but we’re still working it out in terms of economics and whatnot.
There are mentoring programs in the burbs, too, its just that White folk don’t have to, or be forced to, rely on em as much. The easy answer is because they have other tools in place to get things done.
Black folk, by and large, do not.
And that, is the problem.
O
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It ain’t easy to change a country but sometimes when you see some egregious shit about to happen you got to man the fuck up. So you come up with some fucking hydroponic type factory shit so people will have a defense against the assault on the family values that is coming. The assault on the one thing that you see as beautifull on this planet. So that each family unit will be able to hold the line. Take care of their own and prosper in the new paradigm that is coming yet they do not know it.
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“I’d say let’s examine the Black on Black rape rates in relation to the Black on White ones. Of course there’d be fewer White on Black rapes, and any other kind of crimes, for the simple reasons that, one, Whites largely live apart from Blacks, and two, Whites tend to be more affluent than Blacks.”
Obsidian, you are fleeing my question.
Imagine that this Nation (the U.S.) was built by Europeans for Europeans in an European image.
Then, you get a non European group in that European Nation. That is already “strange” to tolerate such a different group (non French trying to be French).
But it is even worst when that group viciously attacks the “Nationals”, that is, the Europeans. Especially in such a vicious scale.
Now imagine you’re in South Africa and the whites there started to rape black women like blacks are doing to white women in America. Would your attitude be the same? We both know it would not.
And look to your arguments: “Whites largely live apart from Blacks” This is comutative, which means that blacks to live apart from whites. Nontheless, the black is always there to rape the white, just wait fifteen minutes…
“Whites tend to be more affluent than Blacks”
Jews and Asians tend to be more afluent than whites, but whites don’t rape Asians and Jews whenever they have a chance.
Those rapes have a clear smell of “ethnic cleansing”, you cannot deny it.
And I think that, a group that is so much attacked by another like American whites are, should really not care about black on black rapes but do whatever is necessary to cease the black on white epidemic rape.
I really mean everything.
You are a nice guy, but unfortunetley you kind of lose your imparciality when analysing the facts. I am not asking for you to cease to be pro black man, no, stand out for your people! But, stand out for them only when they diserve. You are analysing all the facts from an already pro black image which kind of fucks it all.
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Dougjnn,
about Dominicans, they are not European or Spanish, they are a mix. Dominicans “DO NOT” look like Spaniards nor do they have such an European culture.
What’s up is that in the Dominican Republic, contact with Europe was never cutted off: They are mixed themselves and there is a 15% white elite. It’s a lot.
You can’t confuse a Spaniard (or almost) like Juan Luis Guerra and the brown masses listening to Reageton…
And Dominicans are not accepted in Spain as Spaniards or culturally Europeans. Just like Mexicans aren’t (in Spain and) in America. Now Puerto Ricans, Argentinians and white Colombians – white Latin Americans in general… will have all the potential to pass as Spaniards in Spain.
Also, the idea I have is that both Cuba and Puerto Rico are much more “Spanish” in everything than any other caribean islands. That is because when Spain lost the Hispano-American war many and when the Spanish colonies gained independence, many Spanish loyalists escaped to both Cuba and Puerto Rico. Actually, when Cuba and Puerto Rico gained independence, they continued to atract Europeans both from Europe (mainly Spain, France, Portugal) and from the Spanish speaking Americas. Cuba before Castro should have been a paradise… (if you had money).
Like Florida before multiculturalism…
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Andrew E,
I think Dave Alex, a Haitian by heritage, spoke very pointedly to the notions of African-derived peoples having an “intrinsically lower” civilizational standard-Jamaica, which is easily as Black as Haiti, perhaps moreso since it doesn’t have as storied a Multtato caste, does better than Haiti on a number of measures, which again Dave Alex rightly mentions. The key difference I would think, among many, is that Slavery was handled differently on that island than in what would become Haiti. Simply put, the Brits saw the error of their ways; not so for the French.
As for Christianity and Black folk, I kindly direct you to my comments to Gunny and in addition, would kindly note that Black folks’ religious fervor didn’t protect them from police dogs, fireman’s hoses’, the billyclub or hangman’s noose. Indeed, these and other horros visited upon Black folk were often done in the name of Christianity. Now, that doesn’t rub out the faith on a whole, because there were and are many White Christians who stood tall against such things. I’m simply making the case that the whole “if they only had Religion, their lives would be better” is a bunch of bunk. Everyone knows that Black America is on balance far and away more visibly faithful than White America.
I also want to turn to something that you’ve mentioned, in your citations of Putnam, whom I admit I’ve yet to read, and something Dave Alex has said-if African Americans truly are an inferior caste, simply incapable of doing any better, wouldn’t it be better for all if they simply eliminated? Final Solution style? What other logical course is there? We already tried the Liberia solution, look where that got us. And the only way you’re gonna get the bulk and mass of Black folk to “go back” to Africa is at the point of a gun-are you willing to do that, Andrew? Would you be cool if others did it? I mean, if things are as bad as you and Putnam and others have said for Blacks, what’s the solution? From where I sit, what Dave Alex says makes sense. If in a chilling way.
As for Michelle Obama, I really don’t have an axe to grind with the lady, as seemingly some White Men do. And in fact, I’m more fascinated by their fascination of her than any of her real or perceived problems.
By all accounts she was raised in a solid two parent home, something Obama didn’t have himself. She got into Princeton on AA-well, so did a lot of White Women, so what. She held some degree of resentment while on campus-who doesn’t when you’re in college, so what. So said she was never really proud of her country until she saw a real viable Black candidate who happend to be her hubbie run for POTUS, well I know that comes as a huge shock for many Whites, but the truth is A WHOLE LOT of Black folks, from Bob Johnson and Oprah on down to Pookie and Ray Ray feel the exact same way, and why not? I say its perfectly justified, given the history. So what. Michelle O was given make work contracts nd the like on the strength of her hubbie’s position, who in politics doesn’t do that, so what. Her thesis at Princeton sucked, I’m pretty sure f you dug up Hillary Clinton’s, or Laura Bush’s, or even Jackie O’s, they wouldn’t be can’t-put-it-down page turners either, so what.
So, I’m thinking-WHY is this cabal of White guys feel some kind of way about Michelle Obama? Is it that she’s a more convenient target, a kind of surrogate for Obama himself? Is it that she’s “so unattractive”?-and if that’s the case, there have been quite a few First Ladies I can think of that I wouldn’t boff if someone paid me a hefty sum to do, starting w/Lady Bird Johnson, Elenor Roosevelt, both Laura and Barabara Bush, Nancy Reagan, Hillary Clinton, etc. When compared against those First Ladies, Michelle don’t look half bad-and I’ve never found her to be my cup of tea to begin with.
But if all the handwringing is that she feels some kind of way about some aspects of this country, then they need to get a grip. That’s America. Get used to it.
O
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Virgin40,
I’m not hiding behind anything; crime is crime and those who commit it should be prosecuted, period.
Having said that, there is a highly charged thing here when it comes to crimes of a sexual nature btw Black Men and White Women, that simply doesn’t elicit the same kind of attention from other pairings, and I think we all know the reasons for this. Among other things, its due to Slavery, HBDers would argue for more “intrinsic” factors, which may indeed have merit.
My point is that again, you and others like you first don’t look at issues in context, and next don’t consider the histories extant. Rapes occured all the time in the captured lands of SAFR, Zimbawe and the like, they just never were reported. White Men on Black Women, I’m talking about.
Moreover, again, we’d need to compare rape rates wrt Black on Black and see how they line up with Black on White. That’s the only way to do if indeed there’s akind of “ethnic cleansing” going on (not sure at all how you using such a term in this discussion).
Your mention of Jews and Asians is further proof of your failure to grasp context. Neither group were subject to mass discrimination, terror, and the like, in this country. Therefore, to attempt to use them as legitimate examples in defence of your position, is w/all due respect, absurd.
O
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didn’t king say he dreamt of a world in which his children would be judged not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character?
this is the crux of the issue; while white people have seemed to have done their part in forfeiting any general sense of ethnic identity, who has followed suit?
there can be no “them” without an “us”… saying “black is beautiful” is as bad as putting jews in the oven.
multiculturalism is at odds with the fight against racism; for there to be no racism, everybody must acknowledge that they are no more than an individual. what we should aspire to is anticulturalism.
so, who is going first? who will be the first jewish man to say “fuck israel, its people, history and religion and culture”? who will be the first african-american man to say “fuck africa, its people, history and religion and culture”?
who other than white people will say “i take pride in nothing larger than myself”?
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the answer is nobody. non-white people will still view taking pride in “your” ethnicity as “empowerment”, not realising that taking pride in being of one ethnicity is the same as hating as the people of another ethnicity insofar as that in requires acceptance of ethnicity as valid measure and means of dividing and analysing people.
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Yes Roissy, and a fence on the border with Africa would have kept Aids out of the US.
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this is a good quote from this http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009981.html page:
“I just came across the State of the Black Union on CSPAN. A huge conference in New Orleans. One speaker noted that New Orleans is suffering even now because of eight years of Mr. Bush. It occurred to me that whites could not get away with a State of the White Union, and, indeed, many Americans would think it wrong to identify the interest of whites as different from the interest of the nation or culture as a whole.
I asked myself why? It seems to me that when a white person runs for office, he understands and feels “American,” part of America, and he accordingly would naturally represent all Americans as part of the nation. But as I watch this conference, it is clear that these speakers unambiguously define themselves as the “Other” in a white nation and culture; they feel that they live within the nation, but are not a part of it. And so the answers to their problems lie not within themselves, but with acting together against whites, to compel whites to do more, give blacks more “freedom” more financial, educational assistance, etc, that is being withheld because they are black! The continuing infrastructure, crime etc, problems in New Orleans are considered to be be an example of deliberate white racism by the President–acting in the interest of whites.
I thought: How does Obama consider himself, as an American who happens to be black, or as a black man? I agree with the contributor who does not blame Michelle Obama for feeling Other, but who recognizes that this also disqualifies anyone who views himself like this from high political office, because he is unable to think of himself as American, rather than as the Other.”
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Blogging is a weak form of political action.
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“I think f they had simply called their group “Young White Americans” or something like that, w/an expressed aim to educated younger White Americans about the key contributions and the like of White Americans, I honestly don’t think that big a stink would have been made of things;”
What country have you been living in?
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Come on, man, quit playing word games here. You know what I’m talking about.
Dude, you’re the one who’s playing word games here. To you it is “segregation” if whites voluntarily avoid the most crime-ridden parts of DC. The fact is that there is literally no part of DC that is inaccessible or denied to blacks, and in fact one sees many of them every day in all parts of DC. If blacks can go anywhere, and do, while whites can but don’t, why is that “segregation”?
Most of DC’s Black folk live in areas you assidiously avoid.
I dare say the middle class blacks of DC avoid these areas also.
But let’s at least acknowledge the basic point-DC has been and remains one of the country’s most segregated cities in the entire country, a powerful commentary given its role as the country’s capital city.
Show me the law that says I can’t go to Anacostia.
Somehow I fail to find the existence of an enclave of crime and poverty in DC any more interesting or “powerful” than the existence of similar enclaves in, say, St. Louis or Los Angeles, but that’s just me.
I also want to challenge your view, while not expressly stated, that “errbody” in Black DC is some kind of criminal.
No doubt that’s true, but the fact remains that I significantly increase my chances of being a crime victim if I go to certain parts of DC, and therefore simple prudence dictates that I should avoid these areas (which have little to offer me in any case).
Again, that’s not to say that the Black people you come accross in your travels aren’t “Black” or even “Black enough”; what I am saying is that for so many Whites, what they know about African Americans is often informed by an incomplete and distorted view of things. And that’s sad.
I have an “incomplete” view of low-class whites, also, since I know little about their habits, beliefs, pastimes, behaviors, attitudes, and goals. Fortunately I don’t have to feel bad about that, since the media and popular culture tells me that low-class whites are unworthy of sympathy or concern.
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Tarl,
No, I am not saying that there is a de jure segregation going on in Washington DC. Obviously, that’s not the case.
And, having visited there quite a few times myself, it seemed pretty clear to me where the bulk of Black folk lived, and they just happened to be those areas you avoid. Do you have that right? Absolutely. Is it necessarily wrong? No, not necessarily.
But I’ve hungout on Z Street for example, and areas a bit more “colorful” let’s say, w/o incident-and keep in mind, this was after 10pm. In fact, I’ve hungout in similar areas in Baltimore, Detroit, Newark and Brooklyn’s infamous Bushwick Ave, again well after sundown, and sometimes alone-nada.
So, all I’m saying Tarl, is that we gain a sense of perspective here. Yea, you can be hurt, even killed in said areas, no doubt about it. But having sat in the homes of so many people in said places, I can tell you, there’s a lot of good, decent people there, too, and sadly, they get drowned out in the noise about criminality, and all that comes with it.
That’s all I’m saying, man.
O
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@Andrew E- Michelle was treated unfairly by some of her Princeton classmates. I can recall reading a story about how one of her roommates walked into the room, took one look at Michelle and demanded that her room be changed. Those types of things will make anyone feel alienated. Don’t forget that Michelle and Obama are in their mid 40’s so they are not very far removed from the group of blacks who integrated schools in the across the country like the little rock 9.
a short video of the little rock 9. Look at the viciousness of that crowd. WOW!
Goldoilthere can be no “them” without an “us”… saying “black is beautiful” is as bad as putting jews in the oven.
The “black is beautiful campaign started because Blacks very rarely saw themselves in popular media in ways that celebrated the physical beauty of black people in the same way that the beauty of blonde/blue White Americans is/was. It was Black peoples way of saying that maybe you find me hideous, unattractive etc.. but I love me the way God made me. Sadly, this continues and it’s the reason why Italian Vogue dedicated an entire issue to black models July 08.
not realising that taking pride in being of one ethnicity is the same as hating as the people of another ethnicity insofar as that in requires acceptance of ethnicity as valid measure and means of dividing and analyzing people
I disagree. Italians praising Italian culture eg. Michael Angelo, the contribution to art& design, the coliseum etc is by know means a put down of my Blackness. Only when an Italian states that my Black/African or Ethiopians is inferior to his or her Italianess because of x y or z do I feel ostracized.
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Obsidian,
My points aren’t coming across clearly. Where did I say or where in my quotes of Putnam did he say that there is no hope for the black race? Actually, Putnam was making the point that blacks in America live very well relatively speaking. But he was also making the point that this higher standard of living is made possible by their living amongst a more advanced civilization. The key truth here is that blacks need whites to create stable, free and prosperous societies whereas whites do not need blacks for this. If this dynamic were internalized by all Americans and our institutions, there would be no need for debate on race relations. There is no need for forcing blacks to leave because we already have a model for dealing with the race issue. It was evolving in the pre-civil rights South, slowly but surely, at first with heavy restrictions on blacks then gradually lessening over time but always with the big brother/little brother (but brothers nonetheless) dynamic needed to keep the system honest. Until this was all overturned of course, by the equalitarian/liberal revolution of the 60’s.
So, yes, it’s true that blacks on their own, separated from all other civilizational influences, will never (at least not in anything like the forseeable future) attain the kind of living standards enjoyed in the West. If you’re so concerned about the living standards of blacks in other parts of the world, if you want to elevate them to First World status, then I suggest you advocate for some kind of non-liberal re-colonization by the Western nations (think Rhodesia). Otherwise your swimming against the tide and you will lose.
I’m unsure about David Alexander’s points regarding Jamaica. However, I don’t need the example of Haiti to prove the existence of large differences in civilizational abilities between the black and white races. The scientific literature is extensive.
Lastly, when I say that Christianity is important I mean that it helps peoples to simultaneously recognize earthly differences (denied by most present-day self-described Christians) without also failing to see the humanity and dignity of those who are different. I don’t know of any other worldview capable of this duality. Needless to say, I don’t consider modern, liberal, open-borders Christianity to be true Christianity. Nor was Obama’s church, nor any like it, a Christian body.
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Andrew E,
Your and by extension Putnam’s advocacy for a kind of benign paternalism is something that will never catch on in any significant way; if it were so effective a system, why’d it die out, literally? Personally, I wouldn’t want to live in such a fashion.
As for “re-colonialization” of places like Zimbawe, again, not gonna happen-the African people won’t stand for it. And again, there are examples in modern day Africa where living there aint some kind of Third World hell-Ghana has been stable for much of its 50-plus year history. Senegal is yet another relatively stable state. And Liberia, founded by White Americans mind you, and has a long way to go no doubt, is on the road to recovery, headed by its first Female Head of State.
There are quite a few examples of Africans past and present, who can and did live quite well for themselves-but that didn’t sit so well with quite a few Whites. Think the Black Wall Street incident/riots in Tulsa OK, for example. John Hope Franklin covers this in his works.
The idea that the only way, or best way, to exist is to have a de jure segregation between the two Races flies in the face of the very founding ideals of our society, and no amount of oblique tactics will change that. There is the sense on the part of a goodly number of Whites, to want to desperately be able to, w/the veeneer of science, basically regulate African Americans to an effective second citizen status. It is repugnant. It is wrong. And if that is one’s idea of “help” they can keep it.
Check out Jamaica’s history, compare it to Haiti’s, and by all means, holla back.
O
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chicnoir,
I can trade videos all day. You want to see vicious, watch a whole church full of people become orgiastic as the “Rev.” Jeremiah Wright spews his bile at Trinity United.
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Andrew E,
We don’t need to be pestered by another annoying, pushy New York Jew like Larry Auster. There are enough of those on the Left side of the political spectrum.
Larry Auster is an annoying Israel firster who puts Israel, the Jews above all and everything.
Just today he had a post up mocking the paleoconservative magazine The American Conservative in his typically oily fashion for the magazine’s recent financial difficulties. He was gleefully overjoyed at the magazine’s imminent demise.
Political magazines in general, of course, are usually in financial difficulty. They almost never turn a profit and thus require the constant financial support of benefactors.
It’s one of the few, if not only, paleoconservative magazines out there, and paleocons obviously don’t attract a lot of financial backing for many reasons.
Larry Auster is an oily slimebucket. He portrays himself as some kind staunch, traditionalist conservative.
The only thing he truly cares about conserving is Israel and the Jews. Above all else.
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Andrew,
As much as anyone may disagree with or be put off by Wright’s actions, they in no way compare w/that Little Rock 9 video, where real intimidation, backed up by the threat of violence, was in evidence. We cannot say the same thing for Wright’s videos.
This is yet another example in how some Whites attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between say, the Klan, and the Nation of Islam, because THEY find the latter repugnant. But in truth there is no real comparison to be made, because the latter group has no such history of violence, organized or otherwise, in a widespread fashion, against Whites, like the Klan did against Blacks.
Doing things like this only increases enmity on the part of African Americans, conservative ones too, I might add. Which is yet another reason why the GOP has such a hard time attracting Black folk to its cause.
O
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Obsidian,
You write:
“…if it were so effective a system, why’d it die out, literally? ”
Easy, liberalism (ie. re-defining discrimination as the worst possible evil and thus making the rule of non-discrimination the highest organizing principle of society). With a big assist from the false science of equalitarianism.
(Incidentally, the liberalism that overthrew rather than update and modify the old order, and that you are happy to have done away with is the same liberalism that is destroying the nation through mass Third World immigration. You can’t simultaneously have this liberalism and the comfortable life in America you prefer.)
On your other points, I find it hard to believe that any African country in the modern era is completely free from other (ie. Western) influences, aid and investment.
And of course it’s possible for some blacks to prosper greatly in America, I never said otherwise. And good for them.
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Needless to say, I don’t consider modern, liberal, open-borders Christianity to be true Christianity.
I agree. In my philosophical view, Christianity needs to be but one layer in a Western man’s multilayered identity. So on one level he is an individual. On the next level, a father/husband, etc. Then, a member of his ethinic/civilizational group, end so on.
Christianity is a universalist religion, and in its purest application, it is a suicide cult. That’s why Christian universalism needs to be counterbalanced with other, more earthly aspects of one’s being.
On a related note, Christianity has come to be excruciatingly effeminate, as coming from its pulpits at the highest levels. This phenomenon points to a profound, heretical loss of way on the part of its leaders.
Similar to how some of the more crazed Muslim imams are hyper-masculine in their theology and rhetoric.
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Obsidian,
You make some fair points regarding the differences in the two videos. However, which one represents America as it exists today which I think is more relevant.?
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PA,
Well said.
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Ob:
Your and by extension Putnam’s advocacy for a kind of benign paternalism is something that will never catch on in any significant way; if it were so effective a system, why’d it die out, literally?
Easy. To follow with the paternalism analogy: teenagers often get rebellious and ungrateful, thinking they know everything and can do anything, paying no heed to the greater wisdom their betters have.
This pretty much sums of the psychology of most people on the left. Whiney, belligerent teenagers who think they’re owed more than they’re due.
And like Andrew said, this sort of liberalism is the same liberalism undergirding the current immigration mess we are in, and which you claim to be opposed to.
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You all might be interested in a recent Vanishing American post discussing new versus old Christianity.
I’m gonna be responding to some of the posts from yesterday as I have time.
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Andrew,
W/all due respect I can most certainly draw a clear distinction btw respective views; I am against ILLEGAL immigration, whereas you and others, seem to be against immigration from certain areas of the world, irrespective of legality. Huge, huge difference.
As for the videos and their relevance today, I think in the case of Wright, the people have spoken-they obviously think its largely irrelevant. And, if we want to make a real comparison btw that and the Klan in historical terms, I mean, come on.
As for the egalitarian science you mentioned, let me be clear-none of the Black people here have challenged the notion that Black folks may have strengths in some areas and weaknesses in others, and that this may be scientifcally based. I haven’t challenged this, Anon, Voodude, T aka Ricky Raw, Nicole, Chic or Dave Alex have challenged this-what many of us DO have a problem with, is the lack of constructive dialogue on the part of those who push so hard this line of reason: ok, so Black folk aren’t as smart as Whites, now what? What do we do? To date the only modern voice on the HBD side to speak in any detailed way about this is Steve Sailer, to often indifferent ears on his own side. Which brings to mind something of great concern to me but I’ll not go into right now.
O
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ok, so Black folk aren’t as smart as Whites, now what? What do we do?
Admission and acceptance of this would require a profound change in the educational system to emphasize vocational training for the left side of the bell curve instead of the current absurd idea that everyone can and should attend college. Needless to say it would be pointless to emphasize vocational training if there were no good jobs waiting at the end of the process, so we’d need to reinvigorate the manufacturing sector.
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@Tarl- So do you advocate an educational system more in line with the French that involves rigorous testing to weed out the rotten seeds early ?
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Obsidian said:
Andrew,
W/all due respect I can most certainly draw a clear distinction btw respective views; I am against ILLEGAL immigration, whereas you and others, seem to be against immigration from certain areas of the world, irrespective of legality. Huge, huge difference.
I agree, your leftists buddies demand that European immigration be limited is a major problem, and gives lie to their support of ‘equality’.
I see no sane reason why Mexicans deserve to be immigrants more than Polish, Chezlovakians, or Yugoslavians. Among all the other European nations.
Would you care to explain yourself?
Or will you just shut-the-f up?
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Comment Euro,
Your question is easy to address, because it was never my position to start out with; I don’t have a problem w/anyone immigrating here, from anywhere, *so long as they do it legally and play by the rules*. So, I’m just as against illegals coming in from Yugoslavia as I am from those from Mexico, and so on.
Let me also say, for the record, that if what Sailer has reported on his site is indeed true about Obama’s own auntie, I’m against that, too. Its unfair to the many continental Africans who came here on the up and up.
So…you were saying?
Oh, and btw-I’m center-Right in my perspectives, POV and politics. As is the case w/many African Americans, they just don’t know it.
O
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Obsidian
Let me start by addressing an interesting point you’ve just raised in your most recent post (12:14pm).
Right now our “civil society” absolutely refuses to admit these differences, namely that the average American Black IQ is around 85 compared to the White average of 100, and so on for other ethnic groups. According to our official ideology, the only reason for any difference in outcomes between Blacks and Whites must be due to White racism or privilege. Since we’re all pretty much race realists here, meaning we believe real differences sometimes do exist between different races and ethnic groups, at least on a statistical level, we know that equal outcomes between Blacks and Whites are an impossibility, unless an extremely coercive state is created to force equality.
So what to do?
We need to acknowledge that White racism isn’t the primary or even a major cause of the difference in outcomes, and recognize that there other other major factors, including biological and cultural differences.
From this more rational starting point we can devise more constructive social policy. Tarl nailed some critical points about the need to significantly reform our educational system, which Charles Murray discussed in his short and accessible book, Real Education. I completely agree with Tarl that we need to strengthen our manufacturing for many reasons, including providing quality employment to our blue collar workers, national security, economic strength, national independence, maintaining our scientific and engineering infrastructure, and so on.
By reforming some corrupt aspects of our current economic system, which have unhealthily allowed the executive class to give itself absolutely ridiculous compensation, like 200x-10,000x the average worker’s salary, typically by looting the company’s or the country’s future, we can spread the wealth somewhat more equitably. Don’t give me wrong, I don’t believe in total equality and I think some greed and inequality is good as an incentive for hard work. But the last several decades, we’ve spiraled out of control and we essentially have legalized looting and corruption.
Also, by massively cutting back on legal immigration and winding down illegal immigration, we can work on raising the value of low-ability, low-skill labor, which is probably all the lower end of the Black population is capable of doing. Because of our flood of immigration, these jobs have much relative lower wages than before 1970. If our country wasn’t flooded with tons of immigrants and an ever rising population, we could probably afford to do more wealth transfer from the high-end to the low-end workers to make life more pleasant.
Part of improving Black outcomes is to create a more healthy popular culture, encouraging traditional values like married families raising their children, condemning thuggish or predatory behavior instead of glamorizing it,
Blacks could establish neighborhoods or towns that are empowered to keep out or punish the thugs, e.g. if someone is a trouble maker, they can essentially be legally harassed whenever they transgress against the law or the good order of the neighborhood (but we must be careful not to destroy property rights in the process).
Some spaces could be established for those who insist on living a dissolute, violent, thuggish life. They just shouldn’t be permitted to prey on the rest of society. I’m not saying that the non-violent low-end of our society, like bums, should be stuck in such violent zones against their will. These might just be places where some of the normal rules of society are somewhat relaxed and the criminally inclined and violent can have room to work out their aggression (on each other) without harming the rest of society.
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@chicnoir
I’d be interested in your take on my response to your point yesterday.
I was defending the right of Whites to celebrate a White racial identity as opposed to Whites within specific European ethnic identities.
Since American Blacks and even many non-American Blacks (and other groups) also celebrate a pan-African identity more than specific African ethnic identities, like Igbo, Hausa, Ghanaian or Senegalese, it only seems fair that Whites can celebrate their broader identity encompassing Whites from Iceland, Ireland and the UK to Poland, the Ukraine and Russia and from Finland to Italy and Greece, and even our non-European kin like the Berbers, Lebanese, Syrians, Kurds, Armenians, Turks, Persians, northern Indians, and so on.
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So do you advocate an educational system more in line with the French that involves rigorous testing to weed out the rotten seeds early?
I don’t regard people on the left side of the curve as “rotten” or “inferior”. Testing should (and does) reveal that not everyone is suited to go to college, and the people that don’t should receive some form of training to ensure that they can succeed in life without going to college. Those who tested out of the college track would be put on a different (vocational) track. I don’t know if that’s what the French system does, but if so, it’s a good idea worthy of emulating.
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LOL. This has to be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read on this site, and that’s saying a lot.
Let’s go through this….
– This strain has already infected humans (and possibly livestock) in the U.S.! Sealing the border would have 0 (zero) effect on preventing the spread of this strain. It’s already here, and it’s already transmissible between humans. Too late!
– The influenza virus is endemic to human and livestock populations. Even if you somehow managed to seal the U.S. off from Mexico (and every other country with…human beings and livestock), you’d only be protecting the U.S. from this particular strain this particular year. It would do nothing to protect Americans from strains that evolved within the U.S. So, massive expenditures against one strain in one year…good thinking.
– It’s impossible to hold this position (“seal off the border”) and be pro-free market, pro-free trade, anti-big government, anti-tax and spend, etc etc etc:
– Sealing the border would be incredibly difficult. Even North Korea, with the apparatuses of a totalitarian state, can’t seal its border completely. If we wanted to seal it off totally, we’d probably have to build something like Israel’s West Bank wall, which costs billions of dollars per mile. How long is our border with Mexico? Right, we’re talking about trillions of dollars in costs. All that money is going to come from…your wallet, in the form of higher taxes. Nice.
– Sealing the border would destroy trade with Mexico, since it’s not like you can have pristine, sterilized trade without human-to-human contact. Billions of dollars wiped out of the U.S. economy. Nice.
– If sealing the border were to mean anything other than “keep out, filthy Mexicans!” we’d have to seal, basically, every border and port of entry. No contact between Americans and foreigners, no trade, etc. After all, humans and livestock can travel from Mexico to the U.S. via third countries, and citizens of third countries can come into contact with Mexicans. This strain has already infected humans in a number of countries in Europe, Asia, etc. guess we have to seal off contact with all those countries! If you really wanted to totally prevent the spread of a disease, you’d have to seal yourself off totally. Trillions more gone from the U.S. economy. Nice.
– You’d basically be creating a police state, too. Want to travel anywhere else in the world? Forbidden. Want to trade freely with citizens of another country? Forbidden. This “seal” will have to be enforced somehow, right? Let’s talk about police, imprisonment, etc., not just of foreigners trying to get into America, but of Americans trying to go anywhere else (unless stepping foot outside the U.S. automatically entails exile). Nice.
– So, you’ve destroyed huge portions of the U.S. economy (which doesn’t even really get into what happens if we decide to close off all imports out of fear of the disease, which would include Mexican, Canadian, Venezuelan, Nigerian, and Saudi oil – utterly destroying our economy and reducing us to pre-industrial levels). You’ve massively increased public expenditures and you’ve created a new police state. Nice!
– All of that would be massively more expensive than doing nothing at all and accepting the costs of the disease running its course unopposed. All of that would also be massively more expensive than basic public health expenditures to control and treat the spread of the disease. But, spending money on health care is socialism, right? Can’t have that while massively expanding government expenditures to build a hermetic seal around the U.S. and a new police state. Nice.
– None of this, of course, touches on the basic idea that free trade entails not just free trade in capital and goods, but also labor too. There’s a market for labor, too! Accepting free trade in goods and capital but rejecting free trade in labor is…well, pretty dumb. What’s the possible justification for seeking efficiency gains in free trade in goods and capital but accepting inefficiency and deadweight loss in the labor market? Racism? Racism! Nice.
Oh, and this was a gem:
“Since we’re all pretty much race realists here…”
LOL! So that’s what we’re calling it now?
Roissy, do you think it reflects at all on you that your blog attracts Stormfront types?
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Obsidian is apparently unaware of actual situation.
Comment Euro,
Your question is easy to address, because it was never my position to start out with; I don’t have a problem w/anyone immigrating here, from anywhere, *so long as they do it legally and play by the rules*. So, I’m just as against illegals coming in from Yugoslavia as I am from those from Mexico, and so on.
Let me also say, for the record, that if what Sailer has reported on his site is indeed true about Obama’s own auntie, I’m against that, too. Its unfair to the many continental Africans who came here on the up and up.
So…you were saying?
Oh, and btw-I’m center-Right in my perspectives, POV and politics. As is the case w/many African Americans, they just don’t know it.
O
Ok, Obsidian, here is the thing. If everyone had an EQUAL chance of getting that Green Card, we’d see more Europeans, more Asian, more blacks for that matter, and less Hispanics immigrants. And a lot less Mexicans.
So here is the thing, Obsidian, can you explain to me why the government rejects applications from European nationals(and Gunslingers asian girl asking for a tourist visa) more than Mexicans?
What is so special about Mexicans that we have to let them in.. in numbers completely disproportionate to their percentage of the world population?
Why are your leftist buddies so bent on Mexican immigration before other populations immigration… including Africans Obsidian, including Africans.
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Comment Euro,
First of all, I did not know I had so many “leftist buddies” lol. Though I won’t turn away someone as a friend *because* they’re on the Left, I honestly can’t recall many friends who publicly proclaim their being staunch members of the Left.
Be that as it may…
To be completely honest with you CE, I don’t have an answer to your question. On its face, and assuming what you’ve said is true, it seems unfair indeed, even taking into account that everything is on the up and up. I don’t know.
If I’m not mistaken, didn’t the USA employ a kind of lottery system? If they didn’t, that might be a solution. Oh, and I’m also for enforcing a momentary moratorium on current *legal* Mexican immigrants, so as to allow time for the current ones here to culturally assimilate, etc. We cannot simply absorb large amounts of immigrants all the time, even legal ones.
O
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“”””””””””Roissy, do you think it reflects at all on you that your blog attracts Stormfront types?””””””””””””
Just like chuck another liberal who knows all about stormfront.
This shit is hillarious.
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“stop the vector, stop the disease.”
So, your fence keeps out pigs, too? The original problem here is that we keep animals in such close proximity to us because we love to feast on them.
Mind you, I had a bacon cheeseburger for breakfast last week, so I’m not saying I don’t want us to farm animals, but we have to admit there are consequences. MANY of the diseases mankind afflicting humans originate in some yummy/cute animal we decided to bring into our living quarters.
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This blog is attracting people from every walk of life it would seem. Kind of interesting actually.
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I love how political this conversation got so quickly. The thing I’ve always kind of admired about infectious diseases is how immune they are to our delusions of grandeur.
Conservative or liberal, christian or atheist, you’ll die just like everyone else if this hits like the spanish flu. And roissy will lie breathless in a bed next to the beta and herbs he hates, and it won’t make any difference to the disease that consumes him.
You have to admire that kind of raw amorality, don’t you roissy? No pretty lies there.
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Obsidian said:
Comment Euro,
First of all, I did not know I had so many “leftist buddies” lol. Though I won’t turn away someone as a friend *because* they’re on the Left, I honestly can’t recall many friends who publicly proclaim their being staunch members of the Left.
Be that as it may…
To be completely honest with you CE, I don’t have an answer to your question. On its face, and assuming what you’ve said is true, it seems unfair indeed, even taking into account that everything is on the up and up. I don’t know.
If I’m not mistaken, didn’t the USA employ a kind of lottery system? If they didn’t, that might be a solution. Oh, and I’m also for enforcing a momentary moratorium on current *legal* Mexican immigrants, so as to allow time for the current ones here to culturally assimilate, etc. We cannot simply absorb large amounts of immigrants all the time, even legal ones.
O
I shouldn’t even have to post this, but here is the data showing Mexicans are excessively allowed in as immigrants… even if you adjust for the illiegals.
http://www.cis.org/immigrants_profile_2007
Mexicans are about 1/3 of all immigrants in this country. Clearly, completely disproportionate.
Only 2.8% of immigrants come from sub-Saharan Africa. And most of those are probably white refugees from South African and Rhodesia.
Oh, and for your homework, who are the Mexicans replacing?
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Chicnoir–
So it’s perfectly ok for some (many) blacks to only want same race roommates, but not for a white or Asian girl to feel that way?
Given how much hostility there is on the part of many blacks (such as no doubt Michelle) towards whites, and how much many blacks insist that nearly all conversations discuss race or the differential black take on everything (not just her particular take but the BLACK take), I can EASILY see why that girl wanting another roommate felt that way.
In fact I respect that girl who walked right out instead of putting up a big PC front about testing for individual compatibility or just living with heavy tension or arguments or whatever for the school year.
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Billy
According to the following critics of the wall:
That is at least 300 times smaller than your disinformation of “billions of dollars per mile”.
According to Shmuel Rosner:
So even 10 or 20 billion dollars is a bargain, particularly in light of the nearly 2 trillion total cost we are expected to suffer for the Iraq War engineered by the Neocons for Israel’s security.
What’s the point of spending well over half a trillion dollars per year for a military when we don’t even protect our f***ing borders?
One goal in securing the border is that in the future if there were another outbreak from south of the border we would by physically capable of sealing the border. Right now we can’t because we don’t have the infrastructure, unless we rapidly militarized the border with troops in NBC suits willing to widely use lethal force. But even this wouldn’t properly protect all the other border holes in urban areas.
Even if we can’t completely stop the movement of epidemics, hopefully we can slow them down as scientists try to understand the emerging threats and come up with countermeasures. The major goal is to buy some time.
Sealing the border is not nearly as complicated as you portray it, particularly when the real goal is to stop the out of control illegal immigration problem which is going to ruin and maybe even destroy this country if it isn’t stopped.
A total closure of the border is normally a very transient policy, like during an epidemic. During normal times it just means that all trade and travel is closely monitored and controlled. By controlling it, the leakage through the border will slow to a trickle instead of supporting MILLIONS of illegal aliens per year.
We can also control immigration without having a police state. Israel seems to do just fine with national id cards and lots of security.
No one is saying you can’t have any trade or travel. It’s just a matter of controlling it.
Frankly a lot of us are sick and tired of so-called free trade that has just been an excuse for the elites and rich Jews to plunder this country, its future and its middle and working classes just so they can privatize hundreds of billions of dollars in profits while socializing massive costs onto the non-elites.
You don’t seem to get that a lot of us care about other values that just money, like our country and the people in it, and even if it might be slightly more profitable to open the borders and treat people as interchangeable cogs, we don’t think the costs both to our present and future are worth the “benefits”.
Are you Jewish?
Do you support the exact same policies you want to impose on the US for Israel too?
Namely, massive non-Jewish third world immigration until Jews become an increasingly smaller fraction of the country?
Israel can dismantle its barrier wall and allow tons of illegal aliens and completely free trade.
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Obsidian —
I very, very strongly doubt the later. Hell I doubt we grant asylum status to white South Africans (though we probably should — a lot of the black on white crime there has a heavy racial hate crime aspect to it, and particularly for whites unable to afford gated communities and work in heavily white suburbs it’s really out of control and growing worse every year.) Rhodesians we probably do grant asylum to but they probably nearly all go to the UK, Australia or NZ.
In NYC which is just a bit of an immigrant mecca, there are a lot of black African immigrants, both legal and visa jumping illegals alike. Especially a lot from Ghana for some reason.
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“Just like chuck another liberal who knows all about stormfront.”
What makes you think I’m a liberal?
Here are some of the implicit positions I took in my post:
free trade is good,
free markets are good,
U.S. markets are not free enough,
freedom of movement is good,
police states are bad, and
racism is bad.
Based on this, you conclude I’m a liberal.
From this, I conclude that you believe conservatism is:
anti-free market,
anti-free trade,
anti-freedom of movement,
pro-police state, and
racist.
I think that says a lot more about you than it does either about liberalism or conservatism.
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“an excuse for the elites and rich Jews to plunder this country…”
“Are you Jewish?”
LOL. I fully and totally support racist fuckwads who want to out themselves in the open as such. None of this PC pussyfooting around anymore! Just come right out and say it, so you can be treated appropriately!
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I am trying to avoid the race-realist crowd, even though I am one myself, because this blog is funnier when commenters like the G manifesto post (i.e. 100 % about game). but billy deserves an answer.
free trade is good,
free markets are good,
U.S. markets are not free enough,
freedom of movement is good,
police states are bad, and
racism is bad
you know that those last three words, when put into action, deny all that you have written above, don’t you?
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@MU and dougjn -The largest group of African immigrants come from Nigeria. There are over 1 million Nigerian immigrants in the country. The Nigerian hotspots are Texas and Maryland. For Ethiopians and Entreians(tp) hotspots are DC and Cali. NYC is the hotspot for everyone and everybody but you can find a large number of immigrants from Mali and Senegal. Ghanaian hotpots is DC,NYC &_____. Somalian hotspots are Minneapolis and Toronto(-usa)
Funfact: one out of every five Africans is a Nigerian
@andrew e- I was mistaken. I thought you asked a question because you wanted a genuine answer. I don’t participate in the victim Olympics . Furthermore, rev right’s beef is with the government sort of lick the libertarians.
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“””””””””””””””Billy
“an excuse for the elites and rich Jews to plunder this country…”
“Are you Jewish?”
LOL. I fully and totally support racist fuckwads who want to out themselves in the open as such. None of this PC pussyfooting around anymore! Just come right out and say it, so you can be treated appropriately!””””””””””””
LOL billy thats my point you are a liberal. Get it now.
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dougjn Given how much hostility there is on the part of many blacks (such as no doubt Michelle) towards whites, and how much many blacks insist that nearly all conversations discuss race or the differential black take on everything (not just her particular take but the BLACK take), I can EASILY see why that girl wanting another roommate felt that way.
All Blacks are not open to discussing race. Furthermore, not all Blacks are angry with whites as a group anymore than all Whites are angry with Blacks as a group.
The two may have very well gotten along or at the least, tolerated each other. Even if Michelle was as pale as porcelain there is a good chance she and the roommate would have had some type of disagreement along the way.
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“Lupo your full of shit it was the scotts who where one of the richest.”
Yes, I know the Scots were the second richest large American ethnicity by percentage, but the Haitians had them beat. There are no where near as many Haitians as Scottish. FWIIW, they became wealthy the same way: by being cheap.
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Notice that Billy doesn’t answer the question and uses the standard Jewish tactic of ad hominem to act as if addressing substantive points is beneath him, just like Seeking Alpha would do.
Anybody with a brain knows its extremely likely you’re Jewish by various markers in your writing.
I’m not a racist, asshole. I just believe in sticking up for my race to the exact same degree that other races and ethnic groups, like Jews, stick up for theirs.
What, do you want a list of rich Jews that have milked this country and donated tons of money to Jewish causes and Israel?
Are you claiming they don’t exist?
You don’t seem to understand that just someone states something that doesn’t reflect well on some Jews, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Try arguing facts and logic instead of ad hominem.
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Just saw gigs translation of what I was saying lol
Nice way to put it in words.
Oh and billy is a racist and he needs to deal with himself appropriately.
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“you know that those last three words, when put into action, deny all that you have written above, don’t you?”
Don’t beat around the bush. Explain to me why believing racism is bad contradicts any single freedom.
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“””””””””””””””Lupo
“Lupo your full of shit it was the scotts who where one of the richest.”
Yes, I know the Scots were the second richest large American ethnicity by percentage, but the Haitians had them beat. There are no where near as many Haitians as Scottish. FWIIW, they became wealthy the same way: by being cheap.””””””””””””””
I do not have my copy please repost interesting to see again.
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“Oh and billy is a racist and he needs to deal with himself appropriately.”
???
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Billy just lean forward and choke yourself.
Don’t pull my fucking hand.
Lean forward and choke yourself.
Are you through being pretentious
Are you through grinning
Are you through being a racist.
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@scotfiend- Celebrating whitenesss is a totally different ballgame than celebrating being German, Italian, Irish etc… Celebrating whiteness in the mind of POC means celebrating genocide, colonialism, slavery the Klan etc… Sorry but that is just the way we see it. Notice how St. Patrick day festivals and parades attract such a wide and diverse group of people. I don’t think a white holiday would do the same. It would create paranoia and fear amongst POC.
African-Americans celebrate a pan Africanism largely because their African indentify has been lost. At the best, we can look at an African tribe and match our features to one who we resemble or take that DNA test and that’s still shakey.
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“Oh and billy is a racist and he needs to deal with himself appropriately.”
Let me elaborate:
Me pointing out that you’re an idiot doesn’t make a racist, it makes me observant. I have no idea what race, ethnicity, whatever, you belong to, and I don’t really care. All I know is that you’re an idiot, and that’s what makes the Internet so great.
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“smashing pretty lies” being the agenda of the day, lets get one out of the way, and then go back to number collecting gambits (I’m a fan of just handing femes the cell phone, and saying “punch in your digits” – but I’ll give roissy’s latest one a try)
Someone wrote: “You didn’t notice that people ARE the major resource”
This is hitting the truth more directly than the commentator, perhaps, realized.
Has anyone noticed the irony in the term “human resources”
I wonder though; do any of you really get it.. do you?
http://www.mininova.org/tor/250312
So close to the matrix… and yet…
Perhaps too cowardly to take the damn pill.. or perhaps not for some. No, not cowardice, perhaps some have simply never been shown the pill in the first place
A hint, it’s more complex than you think. All of the problems Roissy dwells upon have some basic root in human nature, and an expected reaction to realizing the liberalism shoved down your throats is anger (of the Gunslingergregitype) and a reactionary stance.
Of course being reactionary implies reacting, not acting, “beta behavior”.
Though I’m black I’d wager that white racialists (or so-called “race realists”, per the euphemism of the day) see some things more clearly than the PC crowd do, there is clear social engineering in the sexual, ethnic, and racial relations in our society. This social engineering is massively funded and fulfills certain imperatives.
Most men on this blog know we have been had, black or white, when it comes to sex and gender.
Most women too, it feeds into both the men’s movement and the women’s movement.
Has anyone questioned whether or not someone benefits from the fact that both side’s realizations places each in an adversarial position/ Does anyone ever reflect on the big picture?
Who, exactly, benefits from our collective sluttage, our inability to relate to each other authentically outside of pounding genitals, who exactly benefits from gender and racial preferences?
A few books; read in this order. Anyone who refuses to read these books doesn’t have grounds upon which to even debate certain issues. A small selection of useful books:
– Weapons of Mass Instruction , by John Taylor Gatto.
– Foundations : Their Power and Influence, by René Albert Wormser
– Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Antony C. Sutton
– Anglo-American Establishment, by Caroll Quigley
– Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, by Antony C. Sutton
– Power Elite, by C. Wright Mills
– A Cultural Cold War, by Francis Stoner Sounders
– Tragedy and Hope, again by Carol Quigley ( everything after page 925 gets interesting)
Anyone after reading those books with care, who doesn’t get what’s going on, needs a plug in his head. All are serious books written with academic rigor, two are written by an elite insider. Gatto has a few others, somewhat repetitive but very interesting.
Conservative Home schoolers should find Gatto of great interest. Liberals are well advised to pay him mind too..
Figure it out if you want, or go back to dreaming about white pride goose-stepping, feminazi ball cutting, border sealing’s, or your reactionary reaction de jour.
(the really astute should reflect on Stoner Sounder’s book, and read that article by Henry Makow on the CIA and feminism after reading Sounders.. really)
Now, back to pandemics – the media’s blowing it out of proportion. Back to Swooping Fly Girls and getting their digits, gentlemen, your methods?
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“the standard Jewish tactic of ad hominem”
“its extremely likely you’re Jewish by various markers in your writing.”
“do you want a list of rich Jews that have milked this country and donated tons of money to Jewish causes and Israel?”
LOL. I have trouble believing you genuinely believe this, and are not an elaborate hoax, because this is so ridiculous.
Yes, you figured me out. I’m totally Jewish, with my hooked nose and beady eyes. I worship only Mammon and I use the blood of goy children in my Passover ceremonies. I steal communion wafers and use them to torture the body of Chris. I’m super powerful and my people are disproportionately influential. You can know this because I’m the one, I admit it, who used my Jew black magic to give you a tiny penis, low IQ, and paranoid delusions.
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Billy is all foaming at the mouth to open the concentration/reducation camps hillarious.
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billy
freedom of movement is good: So how many people do you want to reside in the US? Remember, “freedom of movement is good,” so we should not stop anyone that wants to come here, right? So how many? 1 billion? 2 billion? A mere 500 million?
police states are bad Police states are good for enforcing multiculturism.
racism is bad So is completely changing the demographics of this country. Indeed support for “diversity” is itself racist because it assumes that the existing population is not good enough. After all it needs to be “strengthened” by “diversity.”
Regarding the Jewish question, yes it is a valid question. Jewish Americans have shown themselves to be 1) viciously ethnocentric 2) hostile to mainstream America. 3) enthusiastic about the displacement of the White Gentile majority. 4) Trans national in their loyalties.
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“””””””Billy,
Yes, you figured me out. I’m totally Jewish, with my hooked nose and beady eyes. I worship only Mammon and I use the blood of goy children in my Passover ceremonies. I steal communion wafers and use them to torture the body of Chris. I’m super powerful and my people are disproportionately influential. You can know this because I’m the one, I admit it, who used my Jew black magic to give you a tiny penis, low IQ, and paranoid delusions.””””””””””‘
And hes racist against jews my god man.
I can call these fucks too quickly. It is becoming frightening.
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Ok now come out with why your racist against your own people. It will allow the healing to begin.
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Yes whites are viscious motherfuckers to each other. But if you will only beat them up and not beat up any other race. Then you are racist.
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Sorry, that should read “body of Christ,” not Chris. I’ve got nothing against anyone named Chris.
Default User, I’m confused. Yes, I’m pro-freedom of movement. Or do you think Obama should get to decide where you go?
I believe the term is “multiculturalism,” not “multiculturism.” But I could just be picking nits.
“Jewish Americans have shown themselves to be 1) viciously ethnocentric 2) hostile to mainstream America. 3) enthusiastic about the displacement of the White Gentile majority. 4) Trans national in their loyalties.”
Are you sure we’re not talking about those filthy Papists, the Irish Catholics who have been ruining this country for centuries?
“And hes racist against jews my god man.”
I’m confused. Do you people think I’m Jewish or racist against Jews? Which do you think is worse? Make up your minds.
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“But if you will only beat them up and not beat up any other race.”
Don’t you know we Jews are impervious to choking? Only crosses and holy water can destroy us.
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It would be bad if it were both don’t ya think?
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“It would be bad if it were both don’t ya think?”
Typical Maronite Tongan response, avoid answering the question. It’s obvious from your writings that you’re a Maronite, and only a Tongan would name himself after the famous Tongan freedom fighter, Gunsl Ingerger Gi. You people make me sick.
But seriously, I’m Jewish but not racist. I just accept that our natural place, as everyone’s genetic superiors, is at the top of the pile. Why can’t all the rest of you accept your inferior place in society? I mean, if all white people and Tongans reason and write as poorly as you, I certainly wouldn’t want you performing any intellectual jobs. Go grab your mop and clean my floors.
PSYCH! I’m not Jewish or white. I’M A SECRET MUSLIM LIKE B. HUSSEIN OBAMA! I FAKED YOU ALL OUT! DANCE, PUPPETS, DANCE! DEATH TO AMERICA! ALLAHU AKBAR LALALALALA!
Or am I?!?!?
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While I am very ashamed to use Wikipedia, my laziness is greater than my shame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States
Chicnoir, it says only 165,481 Nigerian immigrants in this country. That’s not a small number, no, but it is hugely, massively below the number of Mexicans.
Countries of birth, top 25:
Mexicans are clearly favored over Nigerians by about 60 to 1.
And I don’t see a single African country in the top 25.
Also, the ‘top’ 25 countries make up 30,020 of a total of 37,280 immigrants. In other words, there is no lottery system. The government picks which countries it likes, and which it doesn’t. The one’s it doesn’t like can *bleep* off.
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Yes, I’m pro-freedom of movement.
So I will ask again. Should anyone be able to immigrate to the United States and legally reside here? No limits? Because free movement of people (open borders) would mean a lot of people arriving here.
You are probably picking nits, but you are also correct. I will use “multiculturalism” from now on.
Well, the Irish did run New York City (Tammany Hall) and Chicago for a long while and made a mess of both. Yes, ethnocentric groups acting only in their own interests are harmful. The Kennedys never particularly represented Irish interests. Despite some romanticism towards “the old country” the Irish have never really pushed for an “Irish Agenda.” Indeed, apart from some social groups (e.g., Irish dancing) they do not seem very ethnocentric.
However, the Irish (and Italians) are probably over represented in the police and fire services that might one day save your ass.
[They used to be, I am not sure if that is still the case]
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Billy said at 3:45pm:
Billy’s post exhibits standard Jewish “defensive” techniques for avoiding critique or open dialog. Actually Billy’s rhetoric bears a striking resemblance to Seeking Alpha’s, if you all want to review a couple of my interactions with him to see the EXACT same rhetorical devices and ad hominem attacks, while evading ANY substantive response.
The act centers around trying to discredit the interlocutor as beyond the pale and nuts.
He gets to think he’s clever by technically admitting that he is a Jew but because it’s embedded in satire it is ambiguous and deniable.
First there’s the supposedly humorous, supposed faux admission that he’s horribly stereotyped Jew. So he’s creating this straw man as if I’m accusing all Jews of being ugly or wicked. And then he trots out various bits of what Jews call blood libels, like the story that Jews would kill Gentile children for use in their religious rites, as if I was accusing Jews of all these anti-Semitic “canards”.
Then he ridicules the idea that Jews are disproporationately influential, as if holding this position is crazy instead of factual, which it is when one investigates a wide variety of sources. Check my previous posts on this blog or my blog (among many other sources) for plenty of links that back up this assertion. Just because a person may think that some Jews have too much influence, like the Neocons who entangled us in the Iraq War mostly for what they thought was Israel’s benefit, doesn’t mean you think there is some grand conspiracy, or that it actually involves more than a very small number of powerful Jews. Most Jews are just average people living average lives (although a fair number of average Jews are likely somewhat in favor of Jewish supremacism and support Israel and other Jews over America and non-Jewish Americans).
Notice that his mastery of all this terminology and this technique demonstrates beyond almost all doubt that Billy is in fact a Jew, although he wouldn’t just come out like a reasonable human being and say it factually.
Then he acts like I’m asserting Jews have some strange dark powers and then insults my manhood, intelligence and sanity. Haha. You’re so clever and convincing.
Really, go back and look at Seeking Alpha’s crap and you’ll see the EXACT same bad faith and duplicity. I suspect they take classes on how to “undermine” their critics using these stock techniques. BORING!
You don’t think it’s easy to tell you’re Jewish through the form and content of your writing?
Not all Gentiles have Goyishe Kopf (meaning literally meanin “Gentile head” but really implying that Gentiles are idiots while Jews are superior. Google it).
Sorry dude, your writing is transparent. You and many of your fellow Jews that push proposition nation/high immigration/free trade/etc are drawing from a similar ideological book and, for those with reasonable verbal abilities, your ideas, hot buttons, etc, cluster in such a way that makes your identity fairly easy to discern. It isn’t bigoted to have a brain and use it by using various skills like textual analysis. Jews sure love doing the same thing fishing for anti-Semitism.
One thing that ticks a lot of us off is that you push one set of nation-and-people-destroying policies for America BUT then you advocate radically different policies for Israel. Why the inconsistency?
Jews like Billy and Seeking Alpha don’t seem to understand that by acting in bad faith, they only encourage critics of their malfeasance to work more assiduously opposing their agenda and things they care about, like support for Israel.
I also don’t think that disinterested observers find their bulls*** to be persuasive or effective, but they’re probably geniuses in their own minds.
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Comment_Whatever, I’m sure that number is wrong. There are far more Nigerians than that. The Sun had a number of about 1mill a few years ago. Oh, I wasn’t arguing more Nigerians over Mexicans, I was just stating their numbers.
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leftwing bigoted black racialist:
Comment_Whatever, I’m sure that number is wrong.
“how could richard nixon have won?? i don’t know anyone who voted for him.”
There are far more Nigerians than that.
wikipedia has more credibility than you.
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“Well, the Irish did run New York City (Tammany Hall) and Chicago for a long while and made a mess of both.”
If I can reach just one mind today, I’ll be happy.
Are you suggesting that the Irish are responsible for bad things, or that the specific group of people at a specific time in history in very specific places did bad things and also were Irish?
Because there’s a big difference here, and I think you’re on the cusp of a really big epiphany.
“So I will ask again. Should anyone be able to immigrate to the United States and legally reside here? No limits? ”
Again, that’s not really what I was talking about. If you refer back to my original comment, you’ll see that my objection to Roissy’s suggestion was that, to be effective, a sealing of American borders would have to entail either a total ban on Americans leaving the country, or a total ban on Americans overseas returning home (or both). I object to the notion that I, as an American citizen, can’t decide where in the world I want to travel under threat of legal sanction, imprisonment, etc. Not foreigners, but U.S. citizens.
But, if you really get down to it, yes. I tend to support open borders. I think letting cheap Mexican labor into this country is as awesome as letting cheap Mexican beer into this country. Just like tariffs or quotas on American beer limit competition, leave us with shitty American beer, transfer money directly from my pocket to the protected producers of shitty American beer, and transfer some money directly from my pocket into the trash, limits on Mexican labor rob me.* I love immigration. Throw open our borders! Let in anyone who wants to come!
Also, mixed race people are the most beautiful people. Let in brown people and soon I will be surrounded only by beautiful mocha skinned, almond-shaped eyed ladies. Yum.
* Note, this is just a metaphor. Not all American beer is shitty, and not all Mexican beer is good (Peruvian beer is far superior). The point remains: tariffs and quotas are a tax on you that goes a) into the trash and b) into the hands of people who don’t deserve it. Don’t like welfare? Then you shouldn’t like tariffs and quotas.
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southakj
Interesting post. I’ve stumbled across references to some of these books in the last month or so but haven’t read them yet.
It would be a public service is you summarized the hypothesis you’ve gleaned from the books for the various folks who may not end up reading any or all of these books, or who may be lacking in the ability to read between the lines.
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Chic Noir–
Actually I’ll bet the roommate who walked out immediately when she saw Michelle according to Michelle talked with her for a little bit and got a good sense of who she was first. But of course Michelle didn’t want to let that out, oh no.
But regardless, if blacks can insist on same race roommates for reasons of feeling more comfortable that way, etc., then so too should other races be allowed to insist on the same thing.
A roommate, probably particularly for girls, can have quite an effect and a really conflicting one make life quite tough for a lot of people — again particularly I think a lot of girls. It’s nothing remotely similar to being the same school or classroom or dormitory together. But hell, blacks have often insisted on having their own separate housing units at universities and been catered to.
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“””””””””””””””Billy,
Typical Maronite Tongan response, avoid answering the question. It’s obvious from your writings that you’re a Maronite, and only a Tongan would name himself after the famous Tongan freedom fighter, Gunsl Ingerger Gi. You people make me sick.””””””””””””””””””””
And racist against tongans whoever the fuck they are. Do you make up imaginary races to be racist against. Dammit man you may have to seriously deal with yourself.
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billy/seeking alpha and the rest of you open borders 3rd world rimjobbing we are the world city of god worshipping freaks, stop being fucking retarded. if you limit the number of vectors, you limit the spread of the disease. see: aids in africa vs aids in the US.
someone posted a link above that confirms this common sense approach to disease outbreaks:
http://ssmag.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/new-swine-flu-outbreak/
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Chic Noir
Well there’s a lot more black anger at whites and it’s a lot more socially permitted (it’s totally socially permitted short of violence which is also often excused by many) than the reverse.
But sure, there are exceptions. So what? A roommate is quite an intimate thing. If the girl was really uncomfortable with Michelle in particular (which I think is at least as likely) or having a black ROOMMATE in particular, then that should be just as honored as it would be if Michelle insisted on a black roommate.
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Scotch Fiend & Tarl,
OK, this seems to be a part in our discussion where we can build common ground. Let me toss in my two cents in addition to both of yours, and take it from there, shall we?
Whether there is or is not any, or even some, truth to much of Race realism, the fact of the matter is that our manufacturing sector is at best, a mere shadow of its former self. And it needs to be brought back pronto if we’re to have any hope of prosperity and social tranquility in future. Complete agreement on this, I am.
And, as one who has worked much of his life in the Blue Collar world, I can personally vouch for much of what’s been said on this score. The reason why the “Blacks aren’t as smart as Whites” thing doesn’t really bother me is because let’s face it, errbody ain’t gonna be blessed w/Elizabth Taylor or Nat King Cole looks; or prodigious atheletic talent of a Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan; or similar musical talent of a Michael Jackson or Yo Yo Ma, and so on. The reality of life is that while we all are entitled to certain human rights and dignity thereof, we’re all not equal in ability and as a result, in outcomes. I’m completely cool with that, regardless of the inpu of Race realists. My position is to find real, on the ground practical solutions to problems that effect large swaths of the Black American population, not the relatively small exceptions of it (per RR theory as I understand it, roughly 6 million African Americans have an IQ that is markedly higher than the White American average, a considerable minority of the US Black population).
So, I wholeheartedly support Murray, who’s writings on the matter I have some familiarity with, and again just seems to make good commonsense-err body can’t be a lawyer, doctor, Indian Chief-somebody’s gotta take away the trash. Somebody’s gotta wipe your butt when you’re old and decrepit. Somebody’s gotta be able to make the doo doo go down the drain when you need a plumber, and so on. That’s just the reality of life.
But, in addition to the changes and malfeasance Scotch Fiend rightly pointed out over the past 4 decades, there have also been a few attitudinal changes to come down the pike too.
For example, in the Black community, there is an aversion in some quarters to “working with your hands” *because* of the fact that for so long, Blacks were steered into these fields whether they wanted to be there or not, or if they truly belonged there or not. Recall that scene in Malcolm X, where his gradeschool teacher tells him that being a lawyer was something to uppity for a Nigger, and that being a carpenter was more realistic. The teacher’s horrid visitation of his blatant racism on young Malcolm aside, and even assuming that his assessment were correct, it still goes right to the heart of the RR’s argument, about the inherent ability or lack thereof of Black folks-clearly, by all measure, Malcolm *had* the ability-and he was denied the opportunity to show and prove what he could do. This has been the case in quite a few Black school districts and the like, and “tracking” was quite common, especially wrt Black boys. Again, I speak from personal experience here, and quite painfully I might add.
Indeed, this was the crux of the famous DuBois-Washington Debates, which spilled over into DuBois’ often contentious exchanges with Marcus Garvey after Booker T Washington’s death in 1915. It rages on, still.
All that said though, still, clearly there is a need for a reinvigoration of manufacturing and a basic show of love for the Trades again, and I suspect that as the economic downturn wears on, we will begin to hear more clamoring for this-but it won’t come from the Black quarter-it will come from Whites, particularly those who were previously and proudly Middle Class. As sad as it is to say, often things don’t change until White folks, read, middle class White folks, oxes are gored.
Comments?
O
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Billy
OK I will restate my original post.
A specific group of Americans of Jewish heritage, in the specific time period of the last 50 years or so have shown themselves to be 1) viciously ethnocentric 2) hostile to mainstream America. 3) enthusiastic about the displacement of the White Gentile majority. 4) Trans national in their loyalties. Previous generations of Jewish Americans may have been different.
This current generation that is affecting things now.
While some of the mess the Irish caused still lingers (big city politics), the Irish are not (currently) acting in the same manner.
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‘Billy’s post exhibits standard Jewish “defensive” techniques for avoiding critique or open dialog.’
You know, I’ve been accused by various small-dicked,
[editor: you are a dumb fuck. do the world a favor and drop yourself from a substantial height]
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Comment_Whatever–
There is a lottery system but it doesn’t award many slots. Those are the people who have waited for 15 years and still haven’t gotten in.
Most legal immigrants come in either 1) by “chain immigration” “family reunification”, where a smart Indian doctor or dentist can bring in his idiot brother and sister in law, who work at a gas station/convenience store owned by a second cousin who got in the same way; and 2) through various employer “special needs” immigration provisions, such as the H1-B visas that everyone knows about, through our Universities when they later get American jobs and are given visa extensions that turn into green cards (the good and useful to America kind of immigration), which is how that Indian doctor got here in the first place.
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lupo:
In the millionaire next door, you can read that a greater percentage of American Haitians are millionaires than any other ethnic group, other than Jews.
selection effect.
So, suck on it.
i’d rather watch the house of lies crumble.
Ain’t nuthin wrong with Haitians.
if you can judge a people by their country of origin, then there is something wrong with haitians as a group.
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Billy,
You want to know how I can infer (not deduce, f***head), how you’re Jewish? Why should I waste my time giving you the trade secrets when that just let’s your tribe reshape their hasbara to make it more effective.
And, yeah, the real canard is that some of the so-called anti-Semitic “canards” are actually canards, like dual-loyalty. Give us a break. Quite a few Jews are loyal to Israel and other Jews way before giving a shit about America or Americans. Actions speak louder than words. The same with the supposed canard of disporportionate Jewish media or Hollywood influence. Those have a strong factual basis so pretending that pointing that out is a form of Jewish supremacism that puts Jews beyond valid criticism, unlike Whites and Christians who receive plenty of critique in our mainstream media. How many stories do we ever see about Jewish influence and whether it is good for the country? Almost none. About the only dancing around the edges we get is some recent criticism of the Israel lobby.
By the way you’re post contained far more than “a few lines of basic English text”.
You should really ask yourself if your current asshole behavior (and that of other Jews like yourself), is really going to be good for the Jews and Israel in the long run.
The Jewish dominance of our mainstream media is going to be seriously undermined over the decade so you guys are going to get real criticism to much larger populations. You should be trying to proactively deal with your malfeasance and trying to build respectful relations instead of antagonizing people who would otherwise be sympathetic to issues like Israel.
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Sorry, Roissy won’t let me comment any more. My comments contained too much EXPLOSIVE TRUTH. I’m like the DA VINCI CODE of Jews.
[editor: no, you’re just stupendously lame-brained. my tolerance for your kind of stupidity is low. keep posting, though. i will annoy you by randomly editing your inane offerings.]
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Roissy:
billy/seeking alpha
Truly?
I did have a sense of deja vu.
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Billy
Regarding open borders I am reminded of this quote about Germany’s “guest worker” program.
Germany, France, The United Kingdom have all had a demographic makeover. The results have not been entirely satisfactory. Even liberal tolerant Sweden is having a difficult time with demographic change. That change was not the result of unstoppable forces; it was the result of “open borders” government policy.
People are not goods. They get sick, have children, and commit crime. They impose a burden on infrastructure and costs on the existing population.
When your 28-dollar DVD player “gets sick” it does not head to the local ER for free treatment. The DVD player does not drop out little DVD players that need healthcare and education.
If you want to look at the best case scenario for your open borders world, try California. A prosperous paradise turned into an indebted, over-crowded, high-tax mess. The actual turnout would probably be more like Calcutta.
Along with actual capital, a country grows wealthy on human capital and cultural capital. Under open borders policy we are destroying the last two, and will ultimately destroy the first.
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Doug & Chic,
I have no insight into the whole Michelle O incident w/the White female student at Princeton U and the dorm dispute, but I’d have to side w/Doug on this one-it seems pretty clear to me that these kin of things matter a whole lot more to Women than they do to Men, on a whole. And that’s even putting Race aside, Women have intense dislikes and disagreements that are different in style and scope from that of Men. I could bunk w/Doug or the vast majority of Men here no problem, and I’m pretty sure they would agree w/me at least in principle.
As for the idea that most Blacks hold “anti-White” sentiment, I’ll say this-doesnt this fall under the First Amendment? Meaning that, even if proven true, so what? They have the right to I’ve voice to such things. Of course, Doug and others, hve the right to challene said views, nd I say more power to em in their efforts.
Chic, *excellent* reposte to Scotch Fiend on the whole “Pan-White Pride” thing-again, its a bad example of trying to compare apples to bananas. All of those White folks can trace their bloodlines to specific spots on the European continent, not so for the vast majority of African Americans; in fact, for most of us, we can only go as far back as the Civil War or so.
O
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Obsidian,
Our manufacturing has suffered in direct proportion with the growth of government at all levels. Confiscatory taxation, onerous regulation, unionism, incessant inflationism all destroy capital accumulation and worker productivity and eventually make it more profitable for firms to relocate overseas where tax and regulatory burdens and labor costs are lower.
Government has grown in such ways largely in order to fund the welfare state, education and health care boondoggles and to some extent a military empire. Until the growth in government is reversed, it will be uneconomical to make most things in the U.S.
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No matter how elegant the prowse the person can still be reduced to the base by compounded irony. Funny you have a lot in common with the person who mops the floor or anyone else.
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Since immigration gets talked about here, this is my position on this subject:
Ethnostates should not receive any immigrants who are not of that nation’s core ethnic stock, except for a statistically-trivial tiny number of people who are in no way a liability to the host nation.
United States: I favor zero immigration, or immigration that restores and preserves this country’s workable balance of about 85% white (mostly Anglo-Saxon) Christians, 10% African-stock people, and 5% other. Combined with ruthless incentives to master the English language.
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I am in agreement with PA’s position on immigration.
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Obsidian & Chic
Chic said:
I disagree with your view of White history. This country typically teaches a very biased version of history that demonizes Whites by pretending that Whites were uniquely evil in the history of human civilizations and peoples. The reality is that invasions, genocides, slavery and many other modern sins were not rare throughout human history all over the world, including all races.
Should Black history be forever tainted because the Black Panthers engaged in a terror and assassination campaign against Whites in the 1970s?
Just look at the horror of the Arab slave trade that systematically castrated most Black males. My God. Whites did nothing like that.
So I utterly reject the modern, culture-of-critique, leftist view of White history. Yes, Whites behaved badly sometimes by modern standards but that has been par for the course throughout world history. If anything, Whites have adopted beliefs that ended up overturning many of these up-to-then near universal values and behaviors throughout the entire world. Nowadays, slavery is unheard of in most places.
So I consider the view that White history is only defined by the list of sins you enumerated to be false and biased against Whites. Should Blacks not be proud of their Black identity just because various tribal chiefs sold millions of Blacks into slavery (not forgetting that many times they were selling rivals, not their own people).
We should try to fairly and realistically understand our histories, both the good and the bad. What we have now is excessively critical of Whites and their Western history and somewhat doe-eyed about non-Whites.
I think a major problem with the country and its “civil society” is that it encourages these sorts of hypocritical double standards to exist where Whites must follow one set of rules, while non-Whites and Jews follow another, much happier set. This is one of the major reasons I went from being a life-long supporter of the color-blind society into rejecting it as a cynical, bad-faith strategy motivated by animus to Whites instead of a desire for a truly just society.
As for the pan-African Black identity, I’ve seen plenty of pan-African ideological events and organizations, e.g. at universities, encouraging a very racial ethnocentrism including ALL Blacks everywhere, not just African-Americans who up to this point haven’t been able to know their tribal/national connections to their African homelands. I expect that modern genetic testing will probably eventually allow African-Americans to get a fairly fine-grained view of their ancestry, just like most American Whites might be fuzzy on all the different countries their ancestors came from (e.g. 30% English, 20% Scotting, 10% Irish, 5% French, 5% Indian, etc).
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PA:
United States: I favor zero immigration, or immigration that restores and preserves this country’s workable balance of about 85% white (mostly Anglo-Saxon) Christians, 10% African-stock people, and 5% other. Combined with ruthless incentives to master the English language.
couldn’t have said it better.
of course, being full of common sense, it will send the usual suspects into diaper-loading spasms.
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Der Uber-Roissy wrote:“if you can judge a people by their country of origin, then there is something wrong with haitians as a group.”
The problem with that sort of thinking: Scotland was, and to a certain extent still is viciously poor. I’d rather live in Oakland than Glasgow, despite the fact that I share the same racial handicaps with most of the criminals in Glasgow; at least I can spot and avoid the criminals in Oakland, who have the mark of Cain on them. Yet Scottish-Americans lead all other large ethnicities in America in percentage of millionaires.
Race is important to be sure, but environment also matters. It’s important to know and talk about the fact that race matters, but it is more important to be correct.
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Lupo
I wholeheartedly agree.
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btw, i wrote about my theory of human groups and immigration in the comments of an older post.
here it is:
***
think of ethnicities and races vis a vis the american melting pot as concentric circles. in the middle, you have your core circle. that is the founding stock of a nation. in the US’s case, that includes what was started by the first four waves of english/scots/irish immigration a few hundred years ago. see: albion’s seed.
in the next outer circle you have your northern continental europeans — people like the germans, dutch, and magnussons.
in the next circle, your southern euros. the great italian immigration wave comes to mind.
(africans that came to the US via slavery i consider a special case having little to say about current immigration policy. jews are also a special case because of their tiny numbers, high IQs and extreme ethnocentricity. see: jdate.)
in the next concentric ring you will find your east euros and various slavs and high steppe peoples. in the next, the levantine groups. and WAAAAAY out in the distance in the farthest ring outside of the center circle, you find your latino, asian, and african diaspora.
as you go outward into wider concentric circles, getting away from the solid center circle that props it all up, you will encounter less of each of the following:
a. ability/desire to assimilate
b. belief in and natural inclination toward the anglo saxon tradition.
c. bedrock conservative values
d. bedrock libertarian values
e. bedrock traditional liberal values
f. shared trust with the majority white population
g. cooperative spirit
h. cultural affinity
i. shared values
j. a general feeling of well-being and happiness
k. “american-ness”
so when weasels say that the irish were initially not welcomed (a bit of a myth, btw) and use that to extrapolate their transnationalist post-american morality to the issue of central american and mexican immigration to the US, they are engaging in sophistry of the sleaziest, cheapest kind.
or: the english are much farther from the mexicans than they are from the irish.
now high IQ mediates some of this natural human instinct toward kin proclivity, so you can have a brahmin and a chinese do well in the US without subverting the general tenor of the nation. but if 500 million chinese were to land in the US, despite their IQs and studiousness, such a demographic change would be the death knell of america as it has always been known.
iow: numbers matter.
***
shorter version: proximity + diversity = war.
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PA
You said [from 4/28 6:39pm]:
A logical term might be “Jewish supremacism critics”, meaning those who oppose excesses done by some members of the Jewish community (and their Gentile tools and toadies)
Again, let me clarify that I’m referring to Jews as an ethnic group rather than a religion(s). And the ones pushing anti-White ideology or Jewish supremacism in Hollywood, the mainstream media, academia, Jewish advocacy and pressure groups, and so on, are a small minority, although depending on the issue, they might have somewhat broad support among the average Jewish population.
Israel is a complicated issue. I think it is constructive for the Jews to have their own homeland and it is certainly an interesting country with a broad range of Jewish and non-Jewish populations, cultures, political parties and so on. The major problems are: 1) in forming Israel the Zionists ethnically cleansed large numbers of Palestinians using killings and threats 2) Israel continues to oppress Palestinians, both in Israel proper with an OK but somewhat 2nd-tier status and much more so in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 3) Israel is in a dangerous neighborhood and there are grave concerns about its long-term viability and 4) since many Jews that undermine Whites and traditional American culture and society are most dedicated to Israel, then for people wanting to answer their attacks on Whites, Christians and traditional America, the strong contradictions inherent in Israel provide an obvious weapon.
So even though I was raised in a strongly pro-Israel environment, both in my home and in our broader culture, with Jewish heroes in movies like The Raid on Entebbe (an outstanding made-for-TV movie I saw as a kid), and although I still feel a certain sympathy for Israel and the Jews, I can see where from the perspective of power politics, you use whatever tools you can to respond to the strong attacks on your nation and people, or their manipulation and exploitation, like the Neocons have done in pushing immigration and the American Empire for Israel.
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Andrew & Scotch Fiend,
I agree on the broad points made about the obstacles to big manufacturing here in the USA, and I support moves to make it more attractive to bring factoris back here so that people, Black and White alike, can find work. This will ease lots of tensions accross the board while at the same time build up our tax bases.
As for the White Pride issue, again, I maintain a basic point-Scotch Fiend has a better chance of being able to go back farther than 1865 than I do. And therein lay the point of “Pan Africanism” from our side of the divide, its an attempt to compensate for that which is missing from our family tree. This isn’t the case for SF, for the most part id gather.
O
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Race is important to be sure, but environment also matters.
large numbers of people of an particular race create their own environments
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You want manufacturing we can produce anything we want in mini factories for under 200k this shit is not hard. The nobel prize is nothing. He He He
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Lupo —
Except I’d say it’s the culture part of environment that matters, overwhelmingly.
Culture is a slippery thing but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It does mean it’s damn hard to tell where one begins and another ends, or what the subdivisions are.
Poor families who have very little except the parents are smart and value knowledge and ambition and self discipline, which are typically immigrant families (because other American family cultures with these characteristics or even close are just about never poor, or haven’t been since the days of Jim Crow), almost always see their kids climb, or rocket, upwards.
On the other hand, if a young girl is locked in the basement for more than a decade and sees no other human but her disgustingly perverted father who also has sex with her (which yes is rape but I’m sure in these horrific circumstances also became consensual and very much welcomed as her only human contact, horrible as that is) then of course she’s going to be irredemiably socially and mentally stunted. Yeah that Austrian horror case. That’s pure environment, or anyway the most micro of micro cultures.
Culture and genes. That’s what matters. (But culture exists on many or innumerably different and overlapping levels.)
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Fuck.
The flu has struck my city (houston). It so far has only killed one boy toddler.
The first case in the U.S as of now.
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The problem I’m having w/Roissy’s position is that it could easily be applied to Russia, let’s say-there is clearly something wrong w/its people, given its peculiar history of havin a love affair and longing fo strongmen, be they Czars, Soviets or Putins. Corruption is rife, the State routinely makes moves that make anything done by Obama look lame by comparison, and if you shout too long and long about Putin and the Boyz you could find yourself taking a long walk off a very high apartment terrace or shot up gangland style in an elevator. Yet Roissy can’t sing the praises of Russian ladies enough. What are we to make of this, using his Haitian example?
Comments?
O
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I agree that PA’s immigration proposal is great.
A little bit of wiggle room on the numbers would also be OK given current realities.
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But you can’t get people to make those fantastic superfree business zones unless there is low instance of crime and for instance the sueing and redistrobution of wealth through divorce and affirmative action is what helped the manufacturing leave. Plus being told what you can and cannot do on almost every level. So that big business can only make 5 percent profit a year. Of course you will have slow growth when small business can make 100 percent profit or more a year. You can lose it all because somebody tripped and fell on your sidewalk. Or now you need insurance that costs 800 a month on your small business in case someone slips and falls on your sidewalk.
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Obsidian,
Regarding Russia, yes their political culture has been relatively backwards but actually there were starting to reform before Czar Alexander II was assassinated by leftists. This froze the reform process and ultimately the Jewish-dominated Bolsheviks ended up taking control, killing lots of White Christians that Jewish Hollywood NEVER wants to memorialize unlike the constant stream of Holocaust movies, TV shows and references injected into unrelated shows.
But even though they’ve had a troubled political history from the Western liberal point of view, they are clearly capable of great feats of civilization and have rich, spiritual, literary, intellectual, scientific, mathematical, technological heritage.
There is no comparison to Haiti.
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lupo:
The problem with that sort of thinking: Scotland was, and to a certain extent still is viciously poor.
scotland per capita GDP (2006): $33,460
haiti per capita GDP (2006): $1,300
I’d rather live in Oakland than Glasgow, despite the fact that I share the same racial handicaps with most of the criminals in Glasgow;
murders per 100,000, scotland (2000): 2.3
murders per 100,000, haiti (2006): 5.6
murders per 100,000, caribbean (2006): 30
murders per 100,000, glasgow (2008): 5
murders per 100,000, oakland (2006): 36
(note: crime stats from haiti are notoriously unreliable.)
at least I can spot and avoid the criminals in Oakland, who have the mark of Cain on them. Yet Scottish-Americans lead all other large ethnicities in America in percentage of millionaires.
in murder rates, glasgow is an outlier within europe. haiti is an outlier in the caribbean, but in the other direction. doh!
Race is important to be sure, but environment also matters. It’s important to know and talk about the fact that race matters, but it is more important to be correct.
no one said environmental influence is negligible. see: north korea. but as the waves of computational genetics science washes against the eroding shore of the Great Lie, i predict the genetic explanation will come to be accepted as more important than the heretofore widely-held and comforting environmental explanation. the reason the social constructionists have held such sway for so long is because it appeals to humans’ desire to believe that we are changeable… perfectable. this innate belief is what props up the Great Lie, whether in matters of gender or race or class.
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Scotch Fiend,
I’m pretty sure all those “great leaps forward” were quite comforting to the survivors of the what, 50 MIllION people Stalin had offed? Or the familes of that female reporter? Or the family of the founder of YUKOS Oil? Yea, tell me all about it.
Scotch Fiend, there is something very profoundly disturbing and troubling about the Russian people, there is just no getting around that fact; they have NEVER known the kind of democracy we take for granted, and truth be told, I don’t foresee none of y’all, Roissy included, hopping on the first thing smokin’ to Moscow to holla back just how great it really is now. So, while yup yup, Haiti can’t compare to Russia, it aint ever built a Sukoi or sent Cosmonauts into space it also aint killed dozens of millions of people, among a great many things, either. At Haiti has the real and legit excuse of Slavery.
What’s the Russian people’s?
O
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“c. bedrock conservative values
d. bedrock libertarian values
e. bedrock traditional liberal values”
You know, it’s kind of hard to consider yourself a libertarian if you oppose things like…liberty.
[editor: liberty != mass peasant immigration. hth.]
ie, the freedom to choose to whom you give your dollars, and from whom you receive goods and services.
Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
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Lots of tourists to moscow obviously? Look at all the russian wives. That shit is in droves.
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Those stats are freakish.
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O
russians have the same IQ of american whites, so they don’t depend on welfare (i.e., they don’t consume more taxes than they pay)
russian women are hot
the combination of men who do not use the welfare state and beautiful women can only add to any place where they migrate to. you could say, like roissy, that if a 100 million russians moved to Iran itwouldn.t be Iran anymore, but there are not 100 million russians moving. In india, china, africa and latin america there are those 100 millions
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“[editor: liberty != mass peasant immigration. hth.]”
Remember that next time you’re treated by an immigrant doctor assisted by immigrant nurses and immigrant technicians.
[editor: doctor != peasant. ps congratulations on outing yourself as the stupidest person to ever comment in a thread on this blog.]
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Obsidian,
You must check out the Critique of Culture to see just how deeply involved Jews have been in developing radicalism among other banes of modern civilization.
Another book describing the murderous Jewish influence is Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century.
Don’t forget to check out the Stalin’s Jews link
It really wasn’t the indigenous Russian culture that produced the horrors of Communism, in fact the native Russians, Ukrainians, etc suffered greatly and what had been one of the most deeply pious Christian countries in the world was savagely and forcibly pushed into atheism. I’m hoping that Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s Two Hundred Years Together will be translated into English soon. So far the Jewish publishers have preventing a English translation by a major publisher although its already been translated into most other major languages.
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I’m not sure why you quoted a bunch of statistics which back up what I’ve asserted, but, like, thanks dude. Scotland a few decades ago was insanely poor. That’s why guys like Andrew Carnegie came to America and founded our steel industry. There was nothing to do in Scotland but fuck sheep.
FWIIW, British murder rates are actually about double what ends up reported due to the way the cops game the system. And the real problem with crime in Glasgow and other British areas is being stomped into bone flecked jam; assault rates are many times what they are in the U.S. Frankly, I’d rather be shot than crippled or brain damaged by a yob. Crime in Oakland (I live next to Oakland) is easily avoided. Yes, by sticking to white people neighborhoods. Glasgow is a white people place; you can’t do that in Glasgow. I know what a hole Glasgow is, mostly because my club (a Scottish-American immigrant society founded a century ago) sponsored a kid who comes from there.
I also agree with what dougjnn says. Culture is insanely important. Environment: meh, whatever. It’s culture which makes the big difference. This is why, say, Haitians do very well in America … until they’ve been here a few generations, at which point they revert to the mean of black culture in America, which sucks. It’s also why white British lower classes are such a wreck. And it’s why Trinidad and Tobago are nice places, despite being 100% mud races.
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Jews, Jews, Jews.
Scotchfiend, I’d really like to know – how did the Jews get to be so powerful, over such awesome races as the Whites, when their numbers are so small?
[editor: gee, what could account for jewish success in a modern cognitively-stressed society… hmmm… damn, tough one… circumcision?]
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Lupo speaks to the same point I’m driving at-if we take Roissy’s notion seriously, we might run into some examples those who consider themselves of the RR crowd might not like, that White folks can be pretty fucked up too. As Lupo noted, Scotland’s history is pretty long on less than exemplary behavior, and has been thus until relatively recently in history. And of course, there’s Russia.
Scoth Fiend, I honestly do not know enough about the Jewish role, if any, in Russia during and after the Czarist period. All’s I know is, the Russian People on a whole have a Jones for Strongmen, period.
O
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Obsidian/Mu:“Haiti can’t compare to Russia, it aint ever built a Sukoi or sent Cosmonauts into space it also aint killed dozens of millions of people, “
Um, I think you need some history lessons, dude. Haiti probably wins over Russians in citizen body count percentage. The first 100 years of Haitian history reads like … some kind of voodoo horror story. Since this thing don’t let me include links, google on “War Nerd” and “Haiti” for some remedial education in the awe inspiring cruelty of Haitian history.
Russians have a better excuse for their insane murderous ways. They spent their entire history being invaded by Germans (who were the nicest of the lot), Tatars, Mongols and various varieties of Turk. Their greatest leader in their history, Alexander Nevsky, was under the thumb of the Mongols his entire career. Their upper classes have always been rapacious, evil bastards; Russian peasants (aka, ancestors of all Russians alive today) were actually freed from slavery more than 60 years AFTER the Haitians were. Arguably, the dudes on the collective farms were still slaves right up until the present day. The last time the Russians had it together was in the time of the Novgorod republic. The Venetians saw it as a threat to their trade empire, so they talked the Mongol horde into putting and end to it, and Russians have been a wreck ever since then.
Some phrog once quipped that Russians were a thin veneer of European culture on an Asiatic despot’s soul. I think that about covers it. When I feel like cheesing off rooskies, I point out that Russia is the Africa of Europe; too fucked up to ever get their shit together. Always makes ’em mad, as they all hate the colored folks.
They do make pretty good jets though. In general, Russian engineering and science is superb. And their women are far superior to the horse-faced goblins of my own race.
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“[editor: doctor != peasant. ps congratulations on outing yourself as the stupidest person to ever comment in a thread on this blog.]”
Really? Considering how stupid most of your commenters are (at least those I’ve encountered on this thread), that really hurts, bro.
[it should]
But…you do understand, right, that there’s a market for labor just as there’s a market for, say, beer or lap dances, right?
[5 billion people, mostly poor and unskilled, would like to live in the US. using your logic, what should stop them?]
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That is, “immigration” does not equal “letting hordes of peasants into this country.” It means liquidity in the labor market. The same Mexican peasants who seek low-wage labor are responding to the same issues of supply, demand, and price that Mexican doctors do when they come here to work, too.
[editor: you write as if you have no concept of human nature, human population group differences, and externalities.]
I know, I know, they have brown skin and that makes a lot of you nervous.
[and you continue to be aggressively stupid.]
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“Pointer Outer”
Because as demonstrated by duplicitous and dishonest douchebags like “Billy” some of their members are shameless about lying through their teeth, acting in bad faith, being rabidly ethnocentric, pushing one set of nation-destroying policies for the Other and more-or-less opposite policies for themselves, among other behaviors.
I would feel guilty if I tried to bullshit people so I could exploit them. Unfortunately too many members of the tribe don’t feel the same way.
Not that Billy particularly demonstrates this, but they are statistically somewhat intellectually gifted, at least the Ashkenazi ones, with an average IQ of around 110.
Seriously, you should reflect on my request offered in good faith above:
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Pointer Outer
Because Jews are generally smart. Of course, smart does not always equal good or virtuous, but is rewarded with financial success and prestige. Ethnocentricity means they help each other out.
A small committed group (especially if it can use charges of “racism” to forestall criticism) will often win against a larger but uncommitted group.
Whites are not awesome, just the majority (for now) of the US population.
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Oh, and as for Gig’s thing about Russians not being as dependent on Welfare (the implication of course being, that American Blacks are, despite the fact that White folks are the biggest recipients of Welfare, and we’re not even including the Buyouts/Bailouts etc.), uh, I’m not sure what Russia you’re following pal. Even now LOTS of Russians live and die on their dependence upon the State in order to keep a roof over their heads and meager food to eat.
So, again: if we’re to apply Roissy’s line of reasoning, we can surely say, that there is something pecurliarly wrong about the Russian people because they seem to have a liking for decidedly authoritarian, anti-democratic forms of government and by extension, culture. We see it again and again in the Czars, the Soviets and the post-Soviet period. There is simply no getting around this fact.
Perhaps part of the appeal of Russian gals is the fact that a kind a authoritarianism can be visited on them as well? Hmm.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that…
😉
O
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Pointer Outer
Patton on the Rooskies:
“The Russians are mongols. They are Slavs and a lot of them used to be ruled by ancient Byzantium. From Genghis Kahn to Stalin, they have not changed. They never will and we will never learn, at least, not until it is too late.”
“The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese. From what I have seen of them I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russians have no regard for human life and they are all out sons of bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.”
“Everything they (the Russians) did impressed one with the idea of virility and cruelty.”
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O
blacks are true americans. they have been in the country since the beginning. But there is no point in adding more welfare dependent people, unless you allow mass tax-evasion
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East indians depend on welfare even less than whites. But their women lack beauty of the face and of the body. I’d rather have a million russians than a million punjabis
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Lupo,
Unless you can point to me that the Haitian people offed in excess over 50 million of its own in roughly the same time period or less than Stalin’s Russia, I really can’t hear you. Even Rwanda’s horrific genocide can’t compare in terms of scope or precision of execution. Just no comparison.
Let’s try this on mo gin: if we are to apply Roissy’s line of reasoning one would have to come to the conclusion that that there is something decidedly wrong about the Russian people, to the extent that they have a liking for Strongmen who are authoritarian and anti-democratic in ways that would be anathema to us.
Comments?
O
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lupo:
I’m not sure why you quoted a bunch of statistics which back up what I’ve asserted
you wrote:
the stats i posted contradict what you wrote. scotland is not “viciously poor” by any normal meaing of that phrase, especially when i helpfully note that haiti’s per capita GDP is in the basement, comparatively.
and if it’s getting murdered you want to avoid (and who doesn’t?), glasgow, the most violent city in europe, is safer than oakland by a long shot. sure, you can spot the oakland night marauders easier because they’re mostly black and hispanic, but then all that effort at spotting and avoiding makes one wonder why it wouldn’t just be simpler to live in a city where such continual personal surveillance and active avoidance was unnecessary?
FWIIW, British murder rates are actually about double what ends up reported due to the way the cops game the system.
britain is regressing. britain is feverishly multicultural. the two are related.
when white crime rates go up, they are usually followed in lockstep by the crime rates of the other races. as with IQ fluctuations, the gaps rarely disappear.
Culture is insanely important. Environment: meh, whatever.
insanely? no. not in relation to genes. but it is important. and it is heavily modulated by the genetic scaffolding of the people within. btw, environment and culture are inextricably entwined.
It’s culture which makes the big difference. This is why, say, Haitians do very well in America …
unless you account for selection effect, this statement is meaningless.
And it’s why Trinidad and Tobago are nice places, despite being 100% mud races.
afro-trinidadians: ~37.5%
indo-trinidadians (descended from subcontinental indians): 40%, largest group
mixed race (euro, chinese, etc): 22.5%
murders per 100,000 (2008) trinidad & tobago: 42
http://www.ttcrime.com/stats.php
note: east indians cannot be genetically lumped in with the “mud races” on the metrics that matter, just because they share dark skin.
btw, i notice whenever a multicultist is presented with hatefacts they revert to peppering their proto-civilized arguments with emotionally charged words like “mud people”. this is a classic backhanded smear maneuver that attempts to reframe the discussion in favor of the multicultist. i admit, such a tactic works on most people.
just not on me.
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Obsidian,
I question whether modern, manipulated democracy is any great achievement. Our system seems to have passed a threshold of institutionalized corruption that we may not be able to pull back from before the whole system comes crashing down.
Given that it is currently destroying our country and political correctness makes dissenting from the multicultural party line damaging to people’s careers, it may be far better for the people of a nation to have leaders that actually care about the nation, its people and their long term survival instead of empowering a bunch of totalitarian elites who win every election (like the EU and us if we don’t change) regardless of the supposed free choice between worse and a whole lot worse.
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“People are not goods. ”
That’s absolutely true, and also has nothing to do with this.
I think you’re probably ok on the concepts of free markets in capital, goods, and services, right?
The government should not, within broad limits:
tell us from whom to purchase,
tell us to whom to sell,
tell us in what to invest, or
tell us from whom to accept investments.
Right? We’re good on this, right?
Ok. So. Let’s add two:
The government should not tell us, within broad limits:
who to employ, and
from whom to accept employment.
That’s it, right there, the labor market. Good? You follow, yes?
Now, most governments are pretty good on all six of those within national borders. It would be pretty absurd for the government to tell you that you can buy from Alaskans but not New Yorkers, that you can employ Virginians but not Californians, or that you can invest in New Mexican businesses but not Ohioan businesses.
It’s taken a while, but most governments also now accept the value in free trade in goods, services, and capital. The whole comparative advantage thing, right?
Well, few governments are very good on the last, free trade in labor. But economically, there’s zero difference. A deadweight loss is a deadweight loss and transfers from consumers to producers are transfers from consumers to producers. In other words, limits on imports of Mexican beer mean you have to pay more from beer (some of which goes straight into the pockets of American beer producers, ie, welfare, and some of which is destroyed, deadweight loss), that American producers of beer face less competition and therefore have less incentive to produce a good product, and so on.
Same with labor markets. Limits on Mexican (or any) labor “imports” mean you pay more for labor, you pay more for any good or service produced with labor inputs (virtually all), American labor gets a subsidy (money taken from your pocket by the government and handed to them), etc.
So, economic inefficiencies don’t care whether the trade is in goods, services, or capital.
But a libertarian should care just as much about the whole liberty issue as the economic gains of free trade. That liberty is the freedom to decide who you will employ and from whom you will accept employment. Just as you don’t want the government telling you what beer you drink, where you go to school, where you buy your shoes, whatever, if you consider yourself a libertarian, you shouldn’t want the government telling you who to employ, etc.
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Question for Roissy:
Have you ever met any Haitians, face to face I mean? If so how many? Have you broken bread with them, talked to them and if so, about these issues being discussed here?
[editor: i don’t answer loaded questions. try again.]
Just very curious.
Thanks.
O
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“Pointer Outer”
You don’t seem to follow that not everybody puts economic efficiency as the absolute highest value of human civilization. We’ve seen what’s happened to our country when people pushing this philosophy have implemented these values over the last several decades. The results are in: IT REALLY SUCKS AND IT’S GOING TO GET A WHOLE LOT WORSE.
Most of us only have one homeland, the USA, and we don’t want to see if f***ed up.
Human values are more important than economic values. Certainly good economics has an important place with a nation, but they should be compatible with having a nation worth living in for all the citizens, not just a bunch of greedy elites.
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At this time you could take 300 million people from china and move them in to work every single job now in america. So how could it work?
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Roissy,
It’s not a loaded question, it was a straightahead one,
[editor: the phrasing of your question was designed to reframe any further discussion toward your emotional bias and away from the truth.]
and you know exactly what I’m getting at: its very easy to make wide, sweeping statements when you’ve never actually sat face to face w/people.
[it’s also easy to make generalizations with CIA crime stats.]
As you might guess, I actually DO know many, many Haitians, most of them very dark skinned, I’ve seen them in various settings. Some of the most religious people around, I’ve actually been a part of a religious service, Catholic but performed in Creole. Ate with them, lived among them, discussed these very same issues with them, hence my layman’s familiarity with their national history in broad terms. One of my mentors, a homegrown African America, would visit Haiti frequently to buy Haitian art, which was beautiful.
No, I’m not out to romanticize in any way, the very real problems Haiti faces. Its just that, well, I like to discuss things beyond that which I read in a book.
O
[instead of getting bogged down in another one of your racial turf wars, i’m going to be as clear as day here: it is possible to simultaneously hold individuals in high esteem and to enjoy meeting individuals and judging them on a person by person basis, and to recognize that groups of individuals on average share traits that may or may not be positive and to which one would be wise to react to accordingly. the mind in some of us, at least, is strong enough — malleable enough — to hold these two seemingly contradictory philosophies without imploding in a heap of guilt or self-flagellation.
ps yes i have met a few haitians in my life. they were fine.]
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Ok…let me put into terms that you totally non-racist, simply proud-of-your-race “libertarian” types would get.
You think it’s outrageous that the government tells people who to employ, right? You think it’s outrageous that the government has eroded freedom of assembly, right? By outlawing discrimination in employment by race, the government is totally telling people who they can and cannot hire, and that totally sucks, right?
Well, this is sort of the same thing. The government is telling you that you can hire some people but not others, that you can assemble and associate with some people but not others. And that sucks!
[editor: what is your opinion of the xenophobic japanese? do you think the japanese government should stop telling people who they can hire and allow 200 million chinese in to work for lower wages?]
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“Pointer Outer”
It’s not “sort of the same thing”.
The fundamental purpose of nation is to provide a home and prosperity for its people which must include their long-term survival as well.
Your logic really demonstrates you have no loyalty to this nation or its people because, for your own selfish interests, you’d rather screw over the natives to save a buck. Those constraints you chafe under so angrily, i.e. not allowing the entire, impoverished world to immigrate here to drive down wages and save some greedy f***ers some money, while dumping massive costs onto the average natives, are designed to preserve the long-term integrity and prosperity of the nation and its people.
Also, this country has primary loyalty and obligations to its citizens, not the entire rest of the world, just like other countries should be managed for those other countries’ best interests.
Well-balanced free trade can be a good thing if done right. We sure haven’t had that the last thirty years. We’ve had a greedy elite focused on personal enrichment at the long-term expense of our national interest, including our national economic security. And lots of those greedy elites have made lots of money at the expense of the country’s long-term interests, e.g. outsourcing, offshoring, shutting down factories, devastating communities, squeezing middle and working class wages, selling out to foreign money, etc. Ultimately, we’ll lose our scientific and engineering lead if we don’t have manufacturing, and our national security will seriously decline.
See Pat Buchanan for a much better concept of viable long-term economics that serve the national interest.
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“[editor: what is your opinion of the xenophobic japanese? do you think the japanese government should stop telling people who they can hire and allow 200 million chinese in to work for lower wages?]”
Yes.
[editor: since the japanese have reached a society-wide consensus on not letting 200 million chinese laborers into their country, do you believe the japanese are racist?]
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“drive down wages”
And the corollary to lower wages is lower prices for goods. This argument, that free trade in labor will drive down wages, is the same reason we have things like agricultural tariffs, quotas, and subsidies. If we have free trade in agricultural goods, farmers will make less money. But, agricultural products will cost less. Who consumes agricultural products? You do. So, agricultural tariffs, quotas, and subsidies a) mean your food costs more, because our farmers face less competition, and b) mean the government decides that some of the money for which you work shouldn’t belong to you but should be long to, say, Ted Turner. Awesome! Don’t you love Obama and Pelosi, et al, taking your dollars and giving them to Turner so that your food can cost more?
Now, if we got rid of our tariffs, quotas, and subsidies, our food prices would go down, we’d be charged fewer taxes (well, not really), and…the most awesome part…any country that continued to subsidize its farmers, like all of Europe, would be giving us money for our food. They’d be paying us to eat their food.
Imagine how many jobs could be created with net savings of tens of billions of dollars a year from freeing up the market for agricultural products.
Now…do the same for labor.
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“Well balanced free” trade is of course an oxymoron. “Managed” “free” trade is simply a system that uses the power of the state to limit overseas deals to those approved by the state. And who influences/compromises the state? The existing elites. And who gets shut out by the brute force of the state? Any wanna-be, up and coming new elites.
A managed economy would have seen the IT revolution strangled in its crib by the influence of the established, fossilized entities like IBM.
Besides, state subsidies and trade policy utterly failed to preserve the traditional industries in Great Britain. Why is America different? Why is GM different that Triumph or MG?
Why didn’t eastern europe thrive with all their volkish economic policies?
P. Bucannon is still sore that the Germans lost 2 WWs.
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it is possible to simultaneously hold individuals in high esteem and to enjoy meeting individuals and judging them on a person by person basis
That’s the thing. I don’t know if that’s really possible in a broad spectrum of humanity. One could argue that bad stereotypes will prevent us from bothering to get to know the individuals especially if we’re quick to paint everybody that we meet with a bad brush.
Of course, I’m biased because as an oreo who seeks out white friends and romantic interests, stereotypes hurt my chances of meeting (and living with) white people.
it’s also easy to make generalizations with CIA crime stats
IIRC, I wish I had still had the link, but the UN’s Mission in Haiti reported similar statistics in terms of murder. As I’ve stated, the murders, robberies, and kidnappings tend to be concentrated in the capital. In contrast, somebody like my aunt who owns a beachfront home in the countryside outside of our hometown have little to worry about. Hell, we’ve had white guests who enjoyed staying there…
Re: PA and Roissy
I appreciate the honesty and candor that you’ve given in terms of admitting your viewpoints on immigration. Mind you, once could interpret from your repost of groups of who should be let in, a certain degree of superiority of certain groups over other groups…
Fun Question: I marry foreigner in foreign land. Can I bring her back or is she subject to an immigration ban as well?
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Rum said:
Why didn’t eastern europe thrive with all their volkish economic policies?
The Russians love the Polish! The Russians love the Polish!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
And the Germans, mustn’t forget them! Oh YES! The Russians love the Germans! OH YES!
And their love is MUTUAL!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
You know, Rum, it’s perfectly arguable that the Communist system failed because it forced a bunch of people who hated each other to exist together in ‘love’.
In fact, that fact has a lot to do with what happened.
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Rum said:
Why didn’t eastern europe thrive with all their volkish economic policies?
End Rum
Indeed, isn’t the Soviet System the first failed multicultural experiment?
I think it was. They even played games relocating populations.
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The freerer the trading the more deals get done. The more deals that get done the harder people work. The harder people work the more stuff there is to play with…
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Hi Roissy,
Instead of trying your hand at mind reading or emotional crystal gazing, why not actually address the issues, hmm? I am actually using *your* reasoning, not mine.
and you can spare me the flap about race discussions; you engage in them quite a bit for one who putatively have so little use for those who are non-White. By the way, I can hold in my mind that you aren’t really that bad a guy, too. 🙂
But let’s return to your somewhat laboured point (it is late, don’t you know)-if I can say that I’ve met some very nice Russians, does that then obliterate my premise, based on yours-that the Russian people, seem to have a Jones for Strongmen?
O
PS: glad to know you have actually met some real live Haitians.
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Rum
Tell it to Warren Buffet
“Well-balanced free trade” is not an oxymoron. You seem to be confusing free trade with 100% unconstrained trade.
Well-balanced free trade is what we used to have and pretty much what countries like Germany, Japan, Korea and China currently have, except that some actually have it tilted in their favor.
One piece of the puzzle is not allowing foreign competitors to play lots of games protecting their markets and industries without retaliation, at least in an unbalanced way. Also, our current leaders have forgiven some of these transgressions against us to gain favors in other areas, like recruiting other countries to join “coalitions of the willing” to fight for Israel.
See Pat Choate’s Dangerous Business for more.
Eamonn Fingleton, the Irish economics writer who lived for decades in Asia, is another excellent source and has reputedly written some great books on this topic.
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Dave Alex,
Question to you, seeing as you’re Haitian and all…
Which is worse-the violence of gangs and the like in present day Haiti, or, the Russian Mob? Just curious.
Thanks.
O
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Obsidian
Your disqualifying of Russians because they had or have a penchant from strong men implies a disqualification of over 75% of all countries and peoples, at least, and nearly all African peoples.
Is that your intent?
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Scotch Fiend,
The clear premise here wrt Haiti, is that there is something *intrinsic* about the Haitian people-who are descended from Africans-that prevents them from making a civilization on par w/a White one (even though its thoroughly Black neighbor, Jamaica, has a much different story to tell, as noted by Dave Alex).
OK-and again, before the howling starts (Roissy), I have no problem accepting the premise(s) of Race realist types. So be it.
What I’m doing is seeing if a premise can be applied to other socieites and polities as well-that if one can make a judgment about a people based on certain characteristics of said people, as a group. Ok.
So, I then say, that based on Russia’s history, its people seem to have a prediliction toward Strongmen leaders, thoroughly autocratic and anti-democratic to such an extent, that most if not all the people reading this don’t suffer from ants in the pants just dying to relocate to Moscow.
Your mention of “the whole of Africa” really doesn’t count because, as you know, much of it was colonialized, meaning, that they didn’t have much choice in how led them; the Russian people did. For centuries.
Now-is my premise, based on Roissy’s reasoning in judging Haiti, valid, if not why?
Comments?
O
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Obsidian
I don’t see why you consider Haitian and Jamaican history to be comparable. Until quite recently Jamaica has been under British control with British institutions. How does this compare with Haiti’s long history of Black rule?
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Scotch Fiend,
Good point you make, but again, if the premise is that Blacks are inherently incapable of self-governance, shouldn’t Jamaica have rapidly descended into chaos and violence? Thus far, they haven’t and seem to be doing quite well for themselves.
O
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Obsidian,
Point me to the Haitian/African Tchaikovsky, Tolstoy or Dostoevsky. Point me to the Haitian/African Moscow or St. Petersburg. Point me to the Haitian/African Chekhov or Gogol. Who is Haiti’s Eisenstein and what is its Battleship Potemkin? How do Haiti’s Cathedrals stack up against Russia’s? Where is Haiti’s Moscow University? How many people has Haiti sent into space?
What exactly is your argument here? The difference in the level of civilization between Europe/America and Russia (if there is one) versus the difference between Europe/America and Africa is like the difference between DC and Bethesda versus DC and Alaska.
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Obsidian
I thought that most African colonization occurred rather late in the game, like throughout 19th century. How much democracy has existed in Africa before this colonial era? How much democracy has existed throughout the Islamic or Asian worlds before Western colonization?
Isn’t the answer? None or barely any
Hasn’t the standard historic pattern been strong man/African big man/authoritarian?
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Oh, and Scotch Fiend,
You never answered my question: isn’t there something weird about the Russian psyche, where they always seem to get themselves autocratic, ant-democratic leaders throughout its history, despite its technological prowess? What is up with that?
Comments?
O
PS: Bonuse Question-who was *worse*-Papa Doc, or Stalin?
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Scotch Fiend,
Oh, come on now fellas, don’t be coy-we’ve already accepted the premise that African folks are behind the eight ball, right? Ok, fine by me.
So, how is it that a grest civilization like Russia can’t get its act together when it comes to Democracy? Why do they seem to suffer from the very same Big Man disease that plagues much of Africa and Haiti (but not Jamaica for some strange reason)?
Again, who was worse-Papa Doc, or Stalin?
O
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Obsidian
I think saying Blacks are inherently incapable of self-governance is way too strong. Blacks can certainly govern themselves just fine, as they’ve done for thousands of years throughout Africa. It’s just that they don’t produce a civilization as advanced as Whites, Asians or Arabs. With some assistance at least some Blacks can probably keep a basic modern civilization humming along OK, although Detroit, Zimbabwe, South Africa, among others, provide serious concern.
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Scotch Fiend,
Again, we have a fundamental problem here, and is easily seen in the examples you cited-in all of those cases, the Whites held all the cards and the Blacks were prevented from playing the game,first by learning it. This was especially true in SAFR, where Aparthied was especially vicious, and Zimbawe where it was almost as bad. It kinda reminds of the notion of calling a Man a cripple after breaking his leg.
Anyway, going back to my Russian example-isnt there something to be said for a people so technologically advanced, yet so cravenly backward about its choice of governance and its selection of leaders?
Comments?
O
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Obsidian
I don’t know too much about Papa Doc Duvalier, but from what I know there is no comparison. Stalin was much worse.
About the supposedly disturbed Russian psyche: Did I miss where you answered my point about strong man/authoritarian systems essentially being the common case among human societies, NOT the exception. So the Russians are well within the norms of human societies if they have a history of such rule.
I’m not saying that Africans are behind any 8-ball. My real point is just that Africans, statistically, have different abilities than other groups, so if they don’t achieve certain things to the same degree, don’t put all the blame Whites, Asians, Arabs, etc.
Probably within 100 years there will be safe and proven IQ boosting technology, so human (and artificial) intelligence might leap forward dramatically, and the racial intelligence gaps will be history.
Did you answer my point that modern democracy has lost a lot of its luster and that the Russian people may end up in much better shape by having a more authoritarian system over the long haul because their country isn’t being run by traitors that want to elect a new people?
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Obsidian
Again, if you consult some of those sources I mentioned earlier, you’ll see that the Bolsheviks had a very disproportionate Jewish influence; it wasn’t the will of the Russian people at all. In fact the Russians were quite marginalized in the Soviet leadership. Stalin was a Georgian and surrounded by a variety of Jews. Mostly non-Russians (not including Russian Jews) dominated early Soviet communism. During the entire Soviet era, a totalitarian oligarchy ran the show, so the Russian people didn’t choose their leaders or system. The Russian Revolution was also not a choice of the Russian people, but was imposed by a small, disciplined revolutionary party which gained power and began ruling through raw police state power.
As far as a country like Zimbabwe, Mugabe inherited a well-functioning country and has run it into the ground. He is regressing to the African mean (he’s actually trending below the mean, I think). I think Mugabe deserves the lion’s share of the credit for the train wreck that Zimbabwe has become.
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Jamaica’s Human Development Ranking is 88, while Russia’s is 73.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
Plus, we should limit the comparisons to countries above 10m people, so that we don’t get economies that are too artificially distorted by a single industry (tourism, oil, etc.)
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Which is worse-the violence of gangs and the like in present day Haiti, or, the Russian Mob? Just curious.
I’d actually lean toward the gangs in Haiti being more violent. The Haitian gangs tend to be a mixture of poor kids and deported young Haitians from the US who view anybody with a bit more money as a target for robbery and kidnapping. Sadly, in a previous era of Haiti, the military would have stepped in and killed them off and restored order, and yes, felt proud of their work. Instead, we’re stuck with third rate police who are poorly paid and dabble in robbery and kidnappings as well to supplement their income.
The current situation in Haiti is why despite my liberal values, I am some what defensive of second amendment rights. In America, I don’t feel the need to have a gun to protect myself because we have a functional police force, but in Haiti, I would own a gun in order to secure my liberty and to insure that even if the criminals outnumber me with AK-47s, they will leave with a Pyrrhic victory.
Until quite recently Jamaica has been under British control with British institutions. How does this compare with Haiti’s long history of Black rule?
The main reason to use Jamaica as a base is that despite only 46 years of independence, both countries are in the same region of the world with somewhat similar populations. I use Jamaica as an example of what Haiti *could* be with better governance, mineral resources, stability, and tourism.
I should also note that while the Scottish commenter may point out that Jamaica has had years of British rule, African countries of a similar vintage of Jamaica, Trindad, and Barbados have near Haiti levels of GDP, and we have the perpetual example of the implosion of Zimbabwe in nearly thirty years merely due to poor governance. Thus, the question is to ask what made Jamaica and the other Caribbean nations avoid turning into Africa.
Mugabe inherited a well-functioning country and has run it into the ground
I’d argue that a lot of the African leaders of state suffer from the need to lavish their bases of support and families with money as payback for supporting them. Unlike their Asian counterparts in earlier eras, notions of nationalism and becoming true equals economically are far from the mind of these leaders.
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Scotch Fiend,
Alright then, but what of the Czars? Of Putin, etc? Did the Jews play a huge hand in all that too? In other words, the Russian people can’t be held to account, but the Haitian people, the Zimbaweans, can?
Please explain?
O
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“btw, i notice whenever a multicultist is presented with hatefacts they revert to peppering their proto-civilized arguments with emotionally charged words like “mud people”.”
Lol; Roissy, your argument is weak sauce. I like saying “mud races” because it’s fucking funny. You failed to notice that, in fact, I belong to a club which EXCLUDES PEOPLE WHO AIN’T MEN OR SCOTTISH. If that makes me some kind of multiculturalist Berkeley ying yang, you have a fucking screw loose, and I invite you to nibble tenderly on my scottish-American balls. Sure, I like sticking my dick into negresses and shebrews from time to time; mostly because I think it’s funny playing skrewdriver records while I do so.
If you want to compare intellectual dick sizes, you are going to come out sadly disappointed:
“scotland is not “viciously poor” by any normal meaing of that phrase, especially when i helpfully note that haiti’s per capita GDP is in the basement, comparatively.”
I didn’t compare Scotland to Haiti; I compared their immigrants. Haitians do better than porridge wogs in piling up loot in the good old United States of America. It’s a statistical fact; at least that’s what “The Millionaire Next Door” says. Fucked up and kind of embarrassing, but having worked with Haitians when I was more working class, I can tell you why: they’re fucking cheap bastards who save every penny. Scotland, in fact, was viciously poor for the majority of its history. It is still much more poor than the rest of Great Britain, whatever the “GDP per capita” says. All Scotland has is rocks and sheep shit. It is not a nice place. Cursed by geography and hostile neighbors, unlike the good old U.S. of A. -on the upside, the horrible climate bred people like my relatives, who live to be 100 years old, smoking two packs of pall malls a day, which makes me extremely smug and happy, to say nothing of healthy.
Blah blah “selection effect” -when you define the word, I may or may not agree with you.
Thank you again, for pointing out that Trinidad and Tobago are 100% mud races, including almost 40% negroes. What, am I supposed to be impressed by “east asians?” The people responsible for the blistering $2,800 GDP per capita in their mono-racial paradise of India? How is it the retards who can only come up with $2,800 a year in their racially pure homeland can field a $22,700 GDP per capita while surrounded by even more savage negroes? These are people with an average IQ in their own nation of 86. And, do you actually expect me to believe the Limeys chose the smartest dot heads to work on their plantations in Trini? You don’t need a Ph.D. in computer science to pick fucking sugar cane in the 1800s. The limeys brought the Indians in because they were more compliant than Negroes in picking sugar cane; not because they were great thinkers. If the Trinies can field that standard of living with that many colored low IQ ding dongs, your racial determinism falls completely to pieces.
Personally, I’d prefer a freedom loving, loyal sand nigger who will raise proper well-formed children to emigrate to America than a scumbag Irishman who thinks George Bush is Satan and recycling is a sacrament. I mean, I’d rather a porridge wog, because I’m a narcissist, but I think America already got all the good ones there are to get. “Selection effect” and all that; the sleasebags and wimps stayed in the old country, and the courageous risk takers came here and joined the marines.
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Ob/Mu: “Unless you can point to me that the Haitian people offed in excess over 50 million of its own in roughly the same time period or less than Stalin’s Russia, I really can’t hear you.”
In 1789, the entire population of Haiti was 500,000. In 1792 it was 400,000. As a percentage of population dead, Haiti wins the prize. Russia is and was a giant country.
Stalin’s body count in 10-20 years, depending how you add it up, is around 20 million. I’ve heard figures as high as 50 million, but that usually includes what the Nazis did when they invaded. Stalin never lost 1/5 of his population. More like 1/10, and over the course of 10-15 years rather than, like 2. It also wasn’t done with machetes like it was in Haiti.
If you want to add up the dead bodies since then, Haiti wins by a mile, and has no Sputnik or Mig-17 to make up for it.
Really, you should be proud of your brutal ancestors. They survived that insanity, after all.
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chicnoir, thanks for the response =):
“I disagree. Italians praising Italian culture eg. Michael Angelo, the contribution to art& design, the coliseum etc is by know means a put down of my Blackness. Only when an Italian states that my Black/African or Ethiopians is inferior to his or her Italianess because of x y or z do I feel ostracized.”
very well, but the last phrase is the most telling; your “feelings” are not an appropriate barometer of the impact of such sentiments, and this is perhaps the greatest downfall of liberalism (not that i know whether or not that is what you claim to be)…
racism is “bad” because it makes people “feel ostracised”? fuck people and their feelings- i want to avoid a nationalist police state for the 30 or 40 years i might have on this planet. although only one of those scenarios makes you immediately “feel bad”, the latter cannot happen without the former, and history indicates the former inevitably leads to the latter.
people today think the men of greater times “kept their feelings bottled up” and “didn’t know how to express themselves”…
no, they knew a simple fact that very few realise today:
you and your feelings are unimportant. if you dislike either, react to them as an individual.
be wary child: you can’t “feel” the bullet until it hits you but you can see your enemies plotting for months. any time “black people” or “jewish people” or any “people” come together- either to take pride in themselves or hate others- you should realise what is right around the corner.
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Lupo, LOL at your reply to Roissy. It’ll be interesting to see what he comes back with in response.
I hear ya on the Haiti stats, granted; but, it officially became a country in its own right, in 1804 or so, yes? So, would it be fair to add the stats you noted?
And, I’m not a Haitian, though true, we both share African ancestry.
O
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Billy wrote:
“’Just like chuck another liberal who knows all about stormfront.’
What makes you think I’m a liberal?”
__
Probably the fact that you are enforcing the precepts of political correctness and advocating liberal policies.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/21925
Panic now.
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Panic now.
Joe Biden, friend of the railfan, purveyor of idiocy…
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Well Obsidian, I would feel kinda bad if we end up deprived of a fun filled Roissy post because he’s too busy trying to come up with a witty rejoinder to my stating the obvious. I actually agree with him that race is real important, and that such ideas are suppressed by evil scumbags in the media/academic axis, but genetic cultural determinism is tinfoil helmet level insanity. We ain’t ants for chrissakes.
Granted on Haiti, though … in that case: Russia and the Soviet Union are different governments too. Seriously though, google up the war nerd article on Haiti; it’s pretty awesome.
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Hey Obsidian
Sorry for the delay in responding.
We’re at an impasse because I don’t see that the Russians have anything to defend themselves against by having a long history of authoritarianism, since like I said, that seems to be extremely common among most peoples of the world. I’d like to see you respond to this point of mine before I give a further response. Related to that is my contention that the Russians weren’t responsible for Bolshevism. That was essentially imposed on them from outside. Check out the article on Alexander II. It seems as if a natural, indigenous reform process was tragically interrupted by his assassination. It’s interesting to speculate how history would be different if he’d survived and managed to peacefully reform his country for decades.
I’m not saying Jews are responsible for everything. If you look through my posts, you’ll see I give lots of references to other sources to investigate further the claims that they have disproportionate influence.
No, I don’t think the Jews had much, if anything, to do with installing the Czars. But they sure had a lot to do with undermining that rule. I say this a layman with an above average but non-expert knowledge of history.
As far as Putin, again, I’m not an expert, and who knows what machinations go on behind the scenes, but I’d guess Jews didn’t play a big role in installing him. Although it does appear that a small number of Jews, most of the “oligarchs” with some help from some Harvard Jews, essentially looted a lot of wealth from the Russian people during the transition away from communism. I think the Russian people noticed this and that may have had an influence on Putin’s popularity. My understanding is the chaos, decline and looting the Russians witnessed as part of democracy, soured them on democracy and the West. And frankly who can blame them for this.
But I do believe some Jews had a very large role in Bolshevism and many other forms of radicalism and subversion of traditional Western culture and society. Kevin MacDonald is a good starting point for this and check out Jacob Schiff and his support of anti-Russian activities and Bolshevism and Trotsky.
Note that Wikipedia clearly has a squad of Jews that sanitize articles of details that Jews find embarrassing. Their article on anti-Semitism is utterly unbalanced and never hints at some of the behaviors that Jews engaged in that induced some of the anti-Semitic sentiment, for example, among the Poles and Ukrainians. It also fails to point out that Jews have said extremely derogatory things about Gentiles or Gentile religion throughout their religious texts like the Talmud and many others, while analyzing in minute detail Gentile criticisms or slurs against the Jews. Israel Shahak’s book Jewish History, Jewish Religion is a good starting point for learning about Jewish supremacism from the inside.
Note about “Jews”: It becomes tedious to constantly have to put in disclaimers which is why we use shortcuts like “the Jews” (and various books by Jews discussing Jews also use this convention), but I don’t believe there is any grandiose conspiracy with tens of thousands of members. It’s more that there are various wealthy or powerful Jews within various institutions like the mainstream media, Hollywood, government, academia, Wall Street, Corporations, K12 education, international bodies, etc and sometimes, some of these people use their wealth, position or power to bend things towards what they think are Jewish or Israeli interests. Sometimes it may be more of letting their inherited cultural prejudices, including a hostility to Gentiles and Christians, run loose, which might be the story for some of the Hollywood people (although when looking at the extreme statistical imbalance of the negative versus positive, and the fact that tremendous money is risked on these ventures, the people at the top, who are nearly universally Jewish, know exactly what they’re doing).
Examples of powerful Jewish organizations that try to stifle any critical discussion of Jews are the ADL and the SPLC (crypto-Jewish because mostly run and financed by Jews). There are lots more.
The other day I discussed Youth for Western Civilization and in your reply you thought there was something fishy about them as if they were secretly White supremacists trying to dishonestly mask their true beliefs. I’m not sure why you got that impression from my writing, but that’s not my impression of the group at all. You also considered Western Civilization to be a tacit synonym for Whites, and maybe that’s how much of the world does see it. But within the modern West, even among most conservatives, even fairly traditional ones, the West has taken on a non-racial meaning that can include anyone who adheres to its basic values. By that understanding someone of any race who adopts those values and norms can be considered Western. That’s my understanding of YWC.
My point in bringing them up was how in spite of them being an “inclusive” organization that has non-White members and that is founded on a non-racial ideology (go look at their web site and google for some discussions by their non-White members), they are STILL excoriated and outcast as if they were White supremacists. Check out the videos on their web site where Tom Tancredo can’t even give a speech at the University of North Carolina because leftists are chanting “no dialogue with hate” and there is commotion with windows breaking.
So our supposed “civil society” extremely hypocritically has double standards that allow brazen Chicano racial supremacist organizations like MEChA to not only be present on college campuses, but also receive public funding and respectibility. Would a logically equivalent White supremacist group be welcomed on campus and get public funding and respectibility?
Some of the Black organizations are Black supremacist as well.
But a tacitly White organization is harassed and treated like monsters. It’s double standards like these that demonstrate our “civil society” is operating in bad faith and its real agenda is to marginalize Whites rather than create a truly just society.
Remember the links from yesterday about the racial studies institutes at a variety of public universities with publically funded professors? It’s all part of that bait-and-switch where Whites were supposed to give up their hegemony over society so we would create a color-blind society in which everyone would be treated fairly, under the traditional equality of treatment, but then the rules changed and we switched to the leftist view of equality of outcome, which, as you’ve admitted, is biologically impossible, at least without creating a highly coercive state to jam round pegs into square holes.
Do you consider our “civil society” to be anti-White?
Do you think it’s fair that all non-White groups are allowed and encouraged to be ethnocentric but Whites are demonized as Nazis and White supremacists and cast out from “civil society” if they were to try the exact same behavior?
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If Lupo had a blog I’d read him every day.
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Hogwash.
You’d need to shut down all the airports as well as seal off the borders, genius. Or is this some sort of special virus that only afflicts illegals?
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Scotch Fiend,
No problem, man. Gotta take care of business, I can certainly dig that.
I’m gonna take on two major points you raised, one on Russia, and the other on YWC.
My point in bringing up Russia was in reply to Roissy’s contention that one can make assessments about a group of people, in this case Haiti, by the way they conduct themselves nationally, culturally, etc. Clearly he and others here are of the view that Haitians are emblematic of a lower civilizational standard, one that is rooted in immutable genetic moorings. Ok. Fair enough.
So, I then applied Roissy’s same reasoning, by observing that, Russia, one of the biggest nations on Earth, and one of the most consequential, that they as a people, seem to favor anti-democratic and authoritarian leadership and forms of government, and that their culture is anathema to the very ideals promulgated by groups such as the YWC. Now, whether Jews have something to do with that, or whether Russians made the Sputnik or Sukoi or the AK47, the fact remains that what I’ve said above in my premise is so, and raises serious questions as to whether Russians, as a group are simply incapable of the kins of governance we here in the West take for granted. But instead of a mere acceptance of facts-which is the oft-repeated retort of many a race realist to those who would react to their ideas-the very same people now duck, dodge, or in some other way offer an explanation “see, what had happened was…” kind of obsfuscation, clearly trying to cloud the issues. If Haiti’s Papa Doc was emblematic of its inability to achieve a Western civilizational standard on a par with Whites, than what is Stalin’s? What is Putin’s? Hmm?
As for the YWC, no, I haven’t read its website and will check them out soon. Nor do I support the public funding of one group to the detriment or another-either they all get equal time, or none of them get it.
Having said that, Western Civ means, in essence, its White founders. That’s OK by me, because its a factual statement-basketball wasn’t founded by Black folks-does that then mean that they’re not ballers nonetheless? Of course I’m part and parcel of Western Civ, but its silly to try to pretend that it wasn’t founded by, and originally-and per guys like Jobling-should remain laregly for, White folks.
See, this kind of sleight of hand is what bedevils the RR movement, among a few other things, and until those on the inside who have a real desire to move things forward confronts this, it will never change in terms of its public perception. Black or White.
As for whether I think current civil society is “Anti-White” my reply would be no, its not anti-White as much as it is anti certain classes of White, hence the SWPL deal. What RRers don’t want to openly grapple with is the fact that their number one clear and present enemy are other White folks, those who have real power to make real and lasting changes in their lives. Who can make your life much harder to deal with on the regular, SF-Leroy, or Amy?
O
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Dear ScotchFiend,
We’re watching you.
Love,
The Jews
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lupo:
Lol; Roissy, your argument is weak sauce. I like saying “mud races” because it’s fucking funny.
that’s not why you used that phrase.
and it’s not even that funny.
You failed to notice that, in fact, I belong to a club which EXCLUDES PEOPLE WHO AIN’T MEN OR SCOTTISH.
what club you do or don’t belong to is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If that makes me some kind of multiculturalist Berkeley ying yang, you have a fucking screw loose, and I invite you to nibble tenderly on my scottish-American balls.
too late. they’re already resting on tokyobeta’s chin.
Sure, I like sticking my dick into negresses and shebrews from time to time; mostly because I think it’s funny playing skrewdriver records while I do so.
i like sticking my dick in attractive women regardless of race. but hey, that’s just me.
If you want to compare intellectual dick sizes, you are going to come out sadly disappointed:
strut by assertion.
I didn’t compare Scotland to Haiti; I compared their immigrants.
you claimed scotland was viciously poor. i corrected you on that claim.
Haitians do better than porridge wogs in piling up loot in the good old United States of America. It’s a statistical fact; at least that’s what “The Millionaire Next Door” says.
selection effect can’t be ruled out. the smartest haitians may be the ones resourceful enough to make it to the US. leaving aside the question of the veracity of the book’s claim, it turns out some immigrant groups in america, haitian-americans included, are not doing well:
http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003793.html
Scotland, in fact, was viciously poor for the majority of its history.
so were most countries.
It is still much more poor than the rest of Great Britain, whatever the “GDP per capita” says.
“math is hard!”
All Scotland has is rocks and sheep shit. It is not a nice place. Cursed by geography and hostile neighbors, unlike the good old U.S. of A. -on the upside, the horrible climate bred people like my relatives, who live to be 100 years old, smoking two packs of pall malls a day, which makes me extremely smug and happy, to say nothing of healthy.
i have read that the infamous scots-irish temper has been the result of generations of borderland fighting breeding a nastier disposition. tom wolfe talks of rock fights in west virginia when he was growing up where the good ol boys would tumble out of the bar at closing time and pelt each other with stones until they got tired, then hug it out and do it all over again the next night.
anyhow, score another one for genes.
Thank you again, for pointing out that Trinidad and Tobago are 100% mud races, including almost 40% negroes. What, am I supposed to be impressed by “east asians?”
you’re supposed to be clear-headed. racial differences go deeper than skin color.
The people responsible for the blistering $2,800 GDP per capita in their mono-racial paradise of India? How is it the retards who can only come up with $2,800 a year in their racially pure homeland can field a $22,700 GDP per capita while surrounded by even more savage negroes?
why use the term savage negroes? do you think it strengthens your point? or were you engaging again in a little of that old passive-aggressive smear campaign against yours truly?
if you want to know why east indians do so well in the US, it’s because only the best and brightest immigrate to the US:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/03/legal-immigrants-hints-of-iq-scores.html
These are people with an average IQ in their own nation of 86.
india is highly cognitively stratified. see: parsis, brahmins.
And, do you actually expect me to believe the Limeys chose the smartest dot heads to work on their plantations in Trini?
without more data, we have no idea whether the indians in t&t are of the smarter or dumber castes. but we have anecdotal evidence of what whites thought of indians on t&t:
“British planters characterized Africans
as physically strong but lazy and irresponsible. East Indians were stereotyped as industrious but clannish and
greedy.”
http://www.guyana.org/features/conflicts_indiansandblacks.html
You don’t need a Ph.D. in computer science to pick fucking sugar cane in the 1800s.
you don’t need to be retarded to pick sugar cane, either.
iow, you don’t need to be either smart or dumb.
The limeys brought the Indians in because they were more compliant than Negroes in picking sugar cane; not because they were great thinkers. If the Trinies can field that standard of living with that many colored low IQ ding dongs, your racial determinism falls completely to pieces.
your logical leaps are almost as ridiculous as the latent psychological issues you’re working out by using words such as sand niggers and mud people.
besides, george carlin did that act better.
Personally, I’d prefer a freedom loving, loyal sand nigger who will raise proper well-formed children to emigrate to America than a scumbag Irishman who thinks George Bush is Satan and recycling is a sacrament.
individuals != group averages.
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ob:
Personally, I’m always struck
actually, you’re never struck, because you already have the script in your head playing out before you even finish reading the other side. that’s why you repeat ad nauseum that “you’re always struck” whenever these arguments take place.
by some of the most strident voices against (Black) Affirmative Action suddenly go to twisting themselves into all kinds of knots to justify it in the case of White Women.
who is doing that? i don’t see much of that here. personally, i’m against all AA, white women included.
Then they wonder *why* their movement can’t get no traction.
that’s not why the RR “movement” can’t get no traction.
i can’t get no
RR traction
cause the lies
and the lies
and the lies
they can’t get enough!
What RRers don’t want to openly grapple with is the fact that their number one clear and present enemy are other White folks, those who have real power to make real and lasting changes in their lives. Who can make your life much harder to deal with on the regular, SF-Leroy, or Amy?
there’s a big difference between ideological antagonism and immediate fear. i yield to no one in my loathing of the SWPL set, but i don’t take detours to avoid walking through their perfectly landscaped hoods either.
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lupo again:
Well Obsidian, I would feel kinda bad if we end up deprived of a fun filled Roissy post because he’s too busy trying to come up with a witty rejoinder to my stating the obvious.
time to rejoinder: 4 minutes.
I actually agree with him that race is real important, and that such ideas are suppressed by evil scumbags in the media/academic axis, but genetic cultural determinism is tinfoil helmet level insanity. We ain’t ants for chrissakes.
strawman. noting that genes are just as much if not more influential than culture is not belief in genetic determinism.
i remember those studies of kids who were born with mangled genitalia and subsequently raised as the opposite sex — poor little bastards never could acquiesce to their new gender roles.
i don’t know what made me think of that.
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Obsidian
Thanks for the response. Interesting that you think race realists don’t recognize that SWPLs and the entire leftist anti-White infrastructure are primary enemies. I agree with you that they are the most significant opponents, and I think a fair number race realists see that, recognizing that some Jews played an outsize role in constructing it. Kevin MacDonald has written a paper where he talks about the long-running non-Jewish White culture of critique indigenous to White society (hint: the Puritans).
Not that Whites haven’t deserved some serious critique. I just think it’s gone way overboard and we seem to be descending to a totalitarian society where free speech is slowly eliminated, and the critiques that other groups also deserve and need are taboo.
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I got the URL messed up for Kevin MacDonald’s paper (because I left out the http bit): here’s the correct URL.
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“that’s not why you used that phrase. and it’s not even that funny.”
Ah yes, with your Alpha seduction judo master super powers, you are fully able to look into the minds of your opponents. Confound and blast your meddling mental super powers, seducer-Yoda!
“The people responsible for the blistering $2,800 GDP per capita in their mono-racial paradise of India? How is it the retards who can only come up with $2,800 a year in their racially pure homeland can field a $22,700 GDP per capita while surrounded by even more savage negroes?
why use the term savage negroes? do you think it strengthens your point? or were you engaging again in a little of that old passive-aggressive smear campaign against yours truly?”
Bitch, please: I can use whatever fucking words I want. You have clowns on here talking about how the fucking Jews have some kind of dark conspiracy to have it in for whitey, and how the darkies are incapable of civilization because their brains are too small, and Brother Lupo can’t use the phrase “savage negro” because it might redound poorly on your squeaky clean reputation? I used the phrase because it’s fucking funny, and also because it conveys meaning. Your biological determinist argument is the one actually calling the colored folks in Trinidad some how less than civilized. Yet, they have a higher GDP per capita than, say, Russia. How do you explain that, hmmm? And don’t give me any shit about the dot heads making up the difference: they’re not. Do the freaking math with your superior European brain. How much GDP per capita would the Indians have to be generating to pull along a more or less equal population of lazy black people? If Trinidad can do that well with that human material, despite their legacy of being a colonial shit hole, despite the fact that they have two or three large incompatible racial groups, so can any place else.
“if you want to know why east indians do so well in the US, it’s because only the best and brightest immigrate to the US…
Who gives a rats ass about them? Tell me why they do so well in Trinidad, ding dong! Trinidad refutes your racial determinism more than America does, though the distribution of wealth in America does just as well. Tell me why they do so shitty in India! India is more poor than big parts of freaking Africa for heaven’s sake! Yet … they have a higher IQ in India than they do in those parts of Africa? Regression models which use a single variable tend to suck in real world applications, Roissy. I bet you’re some kind of financial yabo; you should know that. Steve Sailer knows that.
“your logical leaps are almost as ridiculous as the latent psychological issues you’re working out by using words such as sand niggers and mud people.
There are zero logical leaps here, pea brain. I’m sorry you can’t jump through the intellectual hoop of, “gee, maybe my cement-headed biological determinism is refuted in several obvious ways;” that’s your problem. I’ve given you the data, and you refuse to process it. What the fuck about Trinidad, Roissy my boy? Explain it or shut the fuck up.
As for your preposterous, squirrely SWPL attempts to wig wag your moralizing, bony little finger at me for using naughty racist cracker words: you may kindly lick the sweat off my superior-genetic-code-containing balls. That sort of moral coup counting tactic might have some juice with the flabby hipster invertebrates who make up your Georgetown social circle: it don’t work on me. I’m free to speak as I like: I’m real sorry you don’t feel like you are.
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“time to rejoinder: 4 minutes.”
Yeah; it shows. A man’s got to know his limitations, Roissy. Stick with talking about pussy, and leave the math and arguing to professionals.
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Scotchfiend:“in your reply you thought there was something fishy about them as if they were secretly White supremacists trying to dishonestly mask their true beliefs. I’m not sure why you got that impression from my writing, but that’s not my impression of the group at all.”
Well SF, he might have got that impression by looking at the insane black and white axe in fist on shield they use as their logo. I mean, all you’d have to do to make it a full fledged fasces is wrap a couple of twigs around it. If they want to attract non-fascists to their cause, they might start with having a logo that looks, well, maybe a little less fascist than, say, The World Church of the Creator’s logo.
Not that I have anything against them. The leftist riot in the video is completely inexcusable. Fascists should have a voice also. Kind of sad they’re the only political parties who are taking a common sense stand against immigration in any nation I can think of, but these are the times we live in.
Mark in Ark:
“If Lupo had a blog I’d read him every day.”
Lupo does have a blog. It’s linked to my name; always has been. I don’t write as often as Roissy, but when I do, it’s usually pretty OK. I only rarely write about scamming vagina though.
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Nice to see you go to your base element lupo I think it is healthy sometimes. What we really need to solve this shit is 1000 man gladiator tournements to be allowed to be men. Get away from the paper pushing computer only future society where violence has no place. Have coordinated sanctioned violence to get it out of the system.
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Its like anyone can be provoked it doesn’t matter who they are unless they have the jedi mind training from roissies blog he he he
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Roissy, you may not want to tolerate people insulting you on your own website. GNXP learned that lesson a long time ago. Enforce the borders pour encouragez les autres. If I were you, I would deport Lupo, nuke his comments, delete any followups, and ruthlessly enforce the boundaries here. Sow the earth with salt. Do the same for David Alexander, Mr. Natural Pelt, and so on.
You don’t need to moderate every comment, but once you start showing who’s boss then people will get in line or get their own blogs. The tone will be set, and the cops will have dragged the verbal graffiti artists out of the room. Then productive discussion rather than feces throwing can take place.
The reason I say this: there are real signs of intelligence here, but without some moderation the comments section will devolve into an Atrios-like cesspool. And that would be unfortunate because you are now likely the highest trafficked h-bd realist blog on the web.
Coda: I think I’ve realized why h-bd has started to catch on among Venusians. For the first time in a long time, there is an intellectual masculine movement sweeping the nation. It starts by debunking feminism and provides immediate short term benefits. This is key because leftism provides social status; to chuck leftism, you need a compelling reason.
For those who get deeper into it, pickup opens men up to evolutionary *and* analytical thinking, and shows them point-blank that their teachers and the media are emasculating liars. It shows them that real men are assertive rather than cowardly, and that we do not apologize for taking our birthright.
In short, guys — especially white guys — are finding their balls again after being on the back foot for the last century. Once you’ve learned how to *next* a bitch, how can you return to cowering before a PC enforcer? Meet them head on with the cold but controlled hostility of the determined. Attack in packs and never say die. If worms like Lupo or Billy pipe up, ban and delete. Remove them from your gathering spaces unapologetically, knowing that they would silence *you* if they could. In the fullness of time, this will bear many dividends.
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I would deport Lupo, nuke his comments, delete any followups, and ruthlessly enforce the boundaries here. Sow the earth with salt. Do the same for David Alexander, Mr. Natural Pelt, and so on.
I agree with you somewhat but I wouldn’t ban “old timers” like David and Peter. David usually makes thoughtful comments and Peter can be funny.
You can easily say “ban Kick a Bitch or G Manifesto” because they too are trademark characters. But that would be a serious loss.
I don’t mind contrarian characters. They’re usually fun to have around, espectially if therie is style or intelligence behind their act.
The only comments I’d nuke would be from people who go by some version of “Anonymous.” If you’re too boorish to choose a nick name, you don’t need to comment.
The other thing that ruins threads is endless back & forth pissing contests.
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A response I just posted to Gxnpite got stuck in moderation too. It didn’t include the trigger word “m e g a.”
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Gnxpite,
I disagree w/you on a number of levels, but the most simplest is because, were Roissy to begin banning and censoring folks, he’d be no better than Valenti over at Feministing. Intellectually and academically based ideas thrive best when in an open and rigorous marketplace of ieas, and like any marketplace there can be times when things can get loud, even raucous. Such is the nature of life.
Moreover, such a strategem as outlined by you only makes you akin to the Women’s Studies Depts, most if not all of whom are little more than ghettoes intellectually. Your assertion that guys like Lupo would censor a Roissy is something I can see no evidence of throughout the internet; the only places who routinely ban and censor are either avowedly Feminist, or at the least very Feminist friendly, ie, left leaning venues.
The best way to handle things is to let the ideas and their purveyors speak for themselves. If an idea and its spokesman have merit, they will carry the day, if not, they will die on the vine.
That’s one of the things, among quite a few, that I truly admire about this venue and by extension, Roissy himself, that he resists outright censoring of ideas and bans on people. Let the marketplace of ideas hash it all out, is what I say.
The Obsidian
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Lupo
Here’s an excerpt describing the meaning of their logo:
It seems to me that you (and those above) are overreaching in seeing the YWC logo as a fasces, not that there’s anything wrong with a fasces, which has a long history throughout Western civilization and is still widely used. Their logo includes an arm wielding the hammer, which is perfectly consistent with their explanation, while the surrounding bundle of a fasces would make it extremely awkward to wield as a weapon.
It practically seems like you’re claiming that any use of any martial imagery is verboten. Isn’t that a tad controlling?
Was it communist for the Obama campaign to use Socialist Realism imagery and should it have been censored and considered monsterous for using a notorious style associated with a murderous, totalitarian system?
How is YWC’s description of their values and goals fascist?
Do you consider it unreasonable for anyone to defend Western civilization?
Do you think Western civilization and Western heritage are not being threatened by the left, among others?
Do you think our current “civil society” is anti-White?
Do you think it’s fair that every non-White group can celebrate its identity and heritage, and behave ethnocentrically, while Whites doing the EXACT logically equivalent activities are condemned as bigots, Nazis and haters?
Do you think Whites have right to exist as a group, like Blacks or Jews?
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Scotch Fiend,
I haven’t seen the YWC logo and honestly its not that big a deal to me personally, but the bottomline is, that when you’re looking to deal with the public you have to be sensitive to how you’re going to be perceived by said public, especially when the prospect of sensitive topics or issues comes up. And if there’s something in a symbol that harkens back to troubling or disturbing imagery in the minds of the public, that has to be taken into account-which becomes more important, making a point or trying to win others over to your cause?
O
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Obsidian
Just hop on over to their web site to see their logo. I don’t think the general public has any problem with their logo. Leftist control freaks DO have a problem with the logo because it represents a dissenting voice to their twisted totalitarian vision. It’s really none of their business to dictate to other people what they should do, think, believe, etc.
One of the major reasons this country is going down the tubes is that we’ve given in to these bullies step-by-step for decades. Enough is enough.
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Scotch Fiend,
Have checked out the YWC’s logo and have no problem with it. But still, I can see how others might. Be that as it may, their site looks a bit sparse in terms of info and the like. Have they sponsored any debates, written articles, etc that you’re aware of? I’d like to try to get ahold this and see some things for myself. Thanks.
O
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Obsidian
If you look at the About, Join and Resources tabs on their web site, there is a bit more info about their agenda, values, etc.
On the right side of their main page is a link to a blog they maintain which gives a sense of their beliefs and goals. I’ve also seen a few stories around the web discussing them or interviewing their founder, Kevin DeAnna. I’m sure there are some youtube videos, etc of some of their stuff but I haven’t checked that out, except for the Tancredo video.
Go ahead and do some googling to find both their members, supporters and critics. I find it outrageous that they face so ostracism by our “civil society”. It clearly demonstrates the erosion of freedom of speech, free intellectual inquiry and civil debate.
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Scotch Fiend,
I would to see the YWC engage in public debate w/similar groups on the “other side” for example, say, a university’s Black Student Union, on a range of topics. Of course, Affirmative Action could be one of them. One of the things I’m really sad to see go, and not just on the campus but in general, is the death of the public debate. We don’t do that anymore; like you said, we now have a kind of thought police that shuts down anything “we” might not like to hear, and I think that’s wrong.
Thanks for the additional info. I’ll look into it.
O
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Scotchfiend: “It practically seems like you’re claiming that any use of any martial imagery is verboten. Isn’t that a tad controlling?”
No, I’m not. I’m just pointing out that using a crypto fasces makes you look like a fascist. It’s really quite simple. I have nothing against the fasces, and am aware there were examples of it in American coinage and in the art in the Congress building. It’s still an emotionally charged symbol which will cause your group to be labeled “fascist” -pretty fairly, I think, since it’s enough of a nazzy looking symbol, they need a disclaimer somewhere on their webpage.
Do you think it’s fair that every non-White group can celebrate its identity and heritage, and behave ethnocentrically, while Whites doing the EXACT logically equivalent activities are condemned as bigots, Nazis and haters?
No, actually, I think that’s pretty fucked up, and I do in fact think most of the ruling class is out to get working class white people all over the world. I’m a big fan of the kinds of opinions you might find in Taki’s magazine or one of Jim Goad’s books. But then, Taki finds a way to have all sorts of opinions like those you attribute to the “right wing youth” group without anyone looking at him and thinking, “nazi.”
As for gnxpite; personally, I think Roissy likes the arguments. He probably ain’t used to losing, however. Whatever; it’s his blog. He could try to ban me, or ask me politely to be nice. Either one would probably be pretty effective. Or he could continue arguing, which would entertain me more.
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Obsidian
Your idea of those Affirmative Action debates is exactly the sort of thing a properly functioning civil society would do to explore genuine alternatives in a calm and rational manner.
The logic of debating can be generalized beyond a single event that is more susceptible to rhetorical performance tricks, by using some innovative software and the web to enable the very detailed explorations of different issues. The system would enable analyzing a broad constellation of related hypotheses, supporting and dissenting evidence, the ability to critique reasoning, and harness groups of people to cooperatively distribute this work, to ultimately allow a very detailed examination of issues to occur.
For example, you could have ratings build up over time for different individuals, so if someone is dishonest or tendentious about interpreting evidence or sources, this will lower their status.
One goal is to keep arguments honest by being able to see all pro-and-con evidence and reasoning, dissents, etc. Another goal is by having it all open, one individual doesn’t have to master every aspect, but can rely on other trustworthy parties to analyze the details of different portions of the analysis, so that collaborative synergy is achieved.
One hope would be that this would enable a large group of interested laymen-citizens to provide an audit or alternatives for issues and policies that are currently decided by a small set of elites that sometimes seem to have been corrupted.
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“””””””””””on May 1, 2009 at 5:58 am gnxpite””””””””””””””””
In short, guys — especially white guys — are finding their balls again after being on the back foot for the last century. Once you’ve learned how to *next* a bitch, how can you return to cowering before a PC enforcer? Meet them head on with the cold but controlled hostility of the determined. Attack in packs and never say die.If worms like Lupo or Billy pipe up, ban and delete.”””””””””””””””””””
Lupo is not a worm. Billy was handled. Lupo is what you where talking about controlled hostility of the determined. He was provoked by me. He just let it out different outlet. But yea a good guy nonetheless. He has good posts on here mostly. Did he go overboard on roissy yea. Would this be the point in man world when he goes to the pit yea. Too bad we can’t do that here. But only in female land do we ban people for life over (a) transgression. In mans world we either kill them or let them live. Everyone who has a pair of balls occasionally fights. No big fucking woop.
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Lupo
What do you think of the MEChA logo?
Isn’t it interesting that their logo with its stick of dynamite and a Macuahuitl, Aztec weapon, is A-OK to our “civil society”, but there are grave doubts about the “fascist” YWC’s logo?
And the $PLC has no problem with these fine, upstanding citizens (but there sure do with YWC, who got their own bulletin).
Background Info:
A macuahuitl; a macana; a sword or club of wood with obsidian blades.
According to a show on The History Channel, the pronunciation is “macca-WHEET-ull”.
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Scotch Fiend,
Good point on the Mecha symbol. Again, my position is that you allow all of it, or none of it. No cherrypicking. Gotta be consistent. At least strive for it.
And yea, obsidian can be quite deadly. Hell of a blade. 😉
O
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Scotchfiend: MEChA are obviously evil scumbags; much more so than YWC.
The problem with YWC is, they discredit themselves with their wacky logo. What they seem to be advocating is stuff that most legal residents of America should be able to find common cause with. Why put off their natural allies with that nutbar logo? You seem fond of conspiracy theory style thinking, so I’ll put it another way: is there any legal way these guys could more effectively discredit their message than by adopting crypto-fascist imagery the way they have? Maybe they’re an SPLC black ops job to make a list of campus fascists, and drum up their financial support. I understand they’ve not been above doing such things in the past.
If they’re really serious about changing people’s attitudes, and educating an appreciable fraction of America’s population, they’d make an effort to not look so much like crypto-nazi creeps. They’d look like any other middle class American pressure group, like, say, the NRA or the Reform Party. If they’re interested in playing dress up or discrediting people who believe in Western Civilization, I guess they’re doing a pretty OK job of that.
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Lupo
Let me put this another way. Regardless of how effective this particular group will be in spreading their message, do you believe they and others like them have a right to participate in our “civil society”, including universities, without being slandered and harassed?
So as much as I agree with much of their message, I’m really sticking up for their right to be heard. Do you believe in freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry and open debate?
We already discussed earlier how much more openly ethnocentric groups are just dandy with our “civil society” as long as they’re non-White. I’m sick of the double standards and believe they need to be toppled.
Regarding your ascription of fondness for conspiracy thinking to me, presumably you’re referring to my various posts regarding disproportionate Jewish influence. Without rehashing all the details because people can look at the existing posts and read my blog where I do a long post detailing my concerns, are you denying the various facts that I alleged and provided links to sources detailing those facts?
For example, Chapter 7 of Kevin MacDonald’s The Culture of Critique lays out in great detail with massive documentation the extremely disproportionate role various activist Jewish organizations and politicians played in creating our immigration nightmare in 1965. Are you claiming my saying that is “conspiracy”. Likewise for their continued support up to the present for the amnesties and high-levels of legal immigration. Are you denying this pretty much been organized Jewry’s consensus. I’ve read plenty of Neocons pushing these exact policies for years. Do you think I’m making it up?
Likewise with the Jewish role in driving Christianity from the public sphere. Are you claiming they weren’t the driving force of this transformation over the last century?
Likewise for the very disproportionate Jewish role in the left. Is that factual or fantasy?
Do you think Jews are disproportionately represented in Hollywood, both in writing, production and management, and has this had an effect on the content of their work? e.g. compare the statistical treatment of Jews versus Christians and Whites in their work. fact or fiction?
Likewise for the mainstream media. Does it have a disproportionate number of Jews? Do we ever get stories discussing whether Jews are disproportionately influential in the MSM? Do we get plenty of stories worrying over nutty right wing Christians by comparison?
I believe I’ve been extremely measured in how I’ve discussed Jewish influence and have denied any sort of grandiose conspiracies several times. I’ve tried to periodically write little disclaimers clarifying that most Jews are just regular everyday people, and so on. Therefore I find it unfair that you claim that I’ve made just the sort of grandiose claims that I don’t believe I have.
In fact that sort of straw man is one common way that Jewish defenders try to evade discussing these concerns honestly and in good faith.
I know many Jews are traumatized by the Holocaust and inculcated with a very one-sided view of anti-Semitism where they’ve been persecuted by wicked Gentiles for absolutely no good reason. I believe the reality is that sometimes some Jews have engaged in some behavior that has caused some anti-Semitism in response. Obviously intergroup relations can degenerate badly when there are these back and forth transgressions by one group against the other.
My hope will be that Jews will start talking among themselves and start withdrawing their support and tacit consent from those elements within the Jewish power structure that are promoting what I believe to be nation-destroying policies for the US, like massive third-world immigration, and they will stop their aggression (e.g. ADL, SPLC, etc) against Whites, the identity, heritage and peoplehood, so that we can all get along on a mutually respectful basis.
It is cynically hypocritical that many of these same Jewish power structures support radically different policies for Israel because they want to preserve its Jewish character. The inconsistency is immoral and I believe we must call Jews on this when they do it. If Jews want our support for a Jewish Israel, they should stop trying to undermine the predominantly European heritage of the US.
If someone tried to do TO Jews in Israel, the same things that organized Jewry has done to America, they would be furious and accuse those transgressors of trying to eliminate the Jewish people.
I hope Jews can start having a little more empathy for flyover country.
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SF: you raise too many points, but, briefly: of course I think YWC has a right to speak without being hassled by leftist bully boys the way they were in the video. This is still America, for now anyway.
I don’t think they’re doing their movement any favors by adopting a crazy logo which resembles a fascist one to anyone with two eyes in their head.
We all know Jews have giant brains, so they’re going to be prominent in all kinds of places, from wreckers like the SPLC to the founders of the Fascist party in Italy (Madame Sarfatti arguably came up with much of the pageantry that wasn’t lifted from D’Annunzio, and of course there was Ettore Ovazza) to String theory. For example, Spengler has recently come out of the closet as David P. Goldman. Am I suppose to now disagree with him because of his race? Well I don’t. He’s done more good in terms of saving Christianity and the West than any YWC yabo waving their silly hammer of Charles Martel. Do I think some Jewish people have a chip on their shoulder about Christianity? Sure. So do some Hindus and Chinese, or just plain former Christians. I read Cuddihy’s “Ordeal of Civility,” and think it has some legs to it. So what? What, exactly, do you propose to do about it?
Personally, I think Kevin MacDonald is full of shit, and I think “jew on the brain” is a mental illness. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
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Lupo
You can take your time responding the points. No rush. But I don’t really think that’s the reason you decline responding to those substantive points (some of my other posts have links to more detailed support for those assertions).
Oh, I also left out the Neocons getting American entangled in the Iraq War primarily for what they thought was Israel’s best interests rather than America’s. Sure, some of them may have rationalized that both countries interests were, and are, perfectly aligned, but I believe most of them are extremely intelligent men and they aren’t deceiving themselves about their hierarchy of commitments (i.e. Israel and Jews are higher than America and its non-Jewish citizens). It’s galling that groups like the ADL try to enforce a form of Jewish supremacism by treating any rational questioning of this extremely obvious and natural conflict of interests as “anti-Semitism” and therefore forbidden to discuss within our mass media and civil society, with possible career and social consequences for Gentiles foolhardy enough to do so.
Sure, Jews, statistically, have giant brains. I’ve said so myself many times and have said that, and other factors like strong commitment to education are significant factors in their disproportionate success. But again, in some areas, they have NOT been widely distributed among different sides of an issue, and one of the most critical of those is immigration. And even at this late date when the consequences of mass third world immigration are readily apparent to thoughtful observers, Jews are overwhelmingly still pushing for mass amnesty and more, more, more (I’ve noted a few exceptions in my previous posts but they are very much the exception, especially among organized Jewry).
You may say Kevin MacDonald is full of shit, but many other Jews have admitted that he offers some compelling arguments worthy of thoughtful response instead of the typical ad hominem attacks he receives. Among those I’ve noticed, off the top of my head, have been Paul Gottfried, David Kelsey (the Kvetcher) and Joey Kurtzman over at Jewcy. I’m sure there are more but I haven’t systematically researched that question. Again, neglecting his more controversial arguments about Jews and their evolutionary strategies, in examining The Culture of Critique, he lays out the evidence for his assertions in a very scholarly way, with a massive number of citations to hundreds of works, many by Jews.
Have you actually read any of his stuff, in particular, Chapter 7 of The Culture of Critique? Of course, he is far from the only source for this position. Plenty of Jews have discussed this, including many Jewish books and other sources over the years. J.J. Goldberg’s Jewish Power is an interesting source.
Note that in discussing the Jewish role in driving Christianity out of the public sphere, I made no statements about Jews having a problem with Christianity. Pretty much every religion believes it holds the truth, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. I do find a bit hypocritical that many Jews criticize other religions like Christianity for some historical anti-Semitic beliefs, or Islam, with its anti-Jewish theology, while glossing over the strongly anti-Gentile aspects within Judaism, including contemporary Judaism.
The real issue in all of these complaints are Jewish ACTIONS that radically change American society to favor Jewish interests while harming other groups’ interests, in particular Whites and Christians. And while it’s understandable that Jews would agitate for Jewish interests, they shouldn’t play the game of pretending it’s always being done for the greater good and trying to stifle valid criticism as hate speech, which is pretty much our current sad situation.
So the larger point is that these various embarrassing assertions have a strong factual basis. Which is why so many Jews are so evasive in discussing them. Probably Jews fear a strong backlash if their substantial role in these various issues became more widely known, which is one reason they try to suppress what I consider to be very reasonable and valid critique instead of confronting it honestly. Well, fair enough. Whites have done various things in the past embarrassing by modern standards and it wasn’t easy or quick to change those actions, beliefs and values. I think that very few Whites today hold supremacist beliefs while a larger fraction of the Jewish population does hold a logically similar supremacist attitude.
I think it is in Jewish interests to be proactive in confronting this and framing it in a more sympathetic manner, e.g
The reason I think Jews should be proactive is that there are several changes looming in this country. First, the internet and its upcoming improvements, among other factors, will strongly change the current mainstream media, enabling currently marginalized perspectives to gain a wider audience. This also will apply to cultural production. So the current period where Jews in the MSM and Hollywood have been able to limit criticism is rapidly coming to a close.
Another factor is that many of the new immigrants, like Hispanics and Muslims, are far more anti-Semitic than the traditional American population. They will also bring their native culture and media with them, like the various Arab satellite channels. In fact we already see various foreign news sources breaking into the American market, like Al-Jazeera English, and this process will continue. It seems very likely the Arabs and Muslims will finance a variety of organizations in many different domains that will promote their interests among the populace of this country, including propagandizing to the non-Muslim population against the Jews and Israel. If this country turns into a third-world hellhole, Jews will end up getting a large fraction of the blame by many, particularly given their widely documented history pushing massive third-world immigration, even after people like myself and many, many others have strenuously urged them to withdrawal their support from this nation-destroying policy.
As Europe becomes more Islamized, it will act as an outpost producing more academics and a wide spectrum of other forces that oppose Jews and Israel. So Jewishness Studies (meaning a critical look at Jews, Jewish power and privilege), will emerge as a respectable academic discipline with both European and Muslim scholars applying critical analysis to Jews and Judaism, including carefully sifting through Jewish sources in Yiddish and Hebrew, and I think we all know, there’s lots-o-supremacism and other embarrassing tidbits to be found there (and among pretty much every culture that gets microanalyzed, although I suspect Judaism has an extra helping)
Given these plausible speculations, it seems to me, it might be a good strategy for Jews to pro-actively change their strategy. Stop supporting more immigration. Stop the anti-White and anti-Christian propaganda war in Hollywood, the MSM and advertising. Stop supporting multiculturalism, at least the bad version of it. Stop supporting political correctness. Don’t stifle free speech. Be more humble about admitting Jewish conflicts of interest, e.g in government service related to Israel. Admit that sometimes Jews have made mistakes. Let’s try to build a better country based on open communication, mutual respect and empathy for each other.
And when I say “stop doing something”, I recognize the Jewish community is fairly diverse and fractious. The goal is for them to talk among themselves and start shifting their support and pressuring organized Jewry to change its actions. I recognize it takes time to do this and it won’t happen in a month or even a year.
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“And when I say “stop doing something”, I recognize the Jewish community is fairly diverse and fractious. The goal is for them to talk among themselves and start shifting their support and pressuring organized Jewry to change its actions. I recognize it takes time to do this and it won’t happen in a month or even a year.”
Well, to give you a little parable, I have a good friend who worked for a Jewish charity whose purpose was to set up Jewish immigrants in America. She thought this was a good thing to do, since the same charity brought her family to America from the Soviet Union. She was horrified to find out a lot of her job would be bringing Palestinians to America, and couldn’t understand why her organization would want to bring in large numbers of Palestinians, people who are actively hostile to Jews. I sort of speculated it was to take off the heat in Israel proper, or perhaps to reward pro-Israel Palestinians who might need to leave their country, though I think it was really a standard SWPL delusion. The idea being that, if you’re nice enough to people, they’ll stop hating you. My friend is herself a Jew, and doesn’t support this sort of thing at all. Unlike most of the people in this group of SWPL numskulls, she’s reproducing, so presumably her kids will think like she does. Most of what you write would be poisonously offensive to her, and YWC would look as much like a bunch of creepy goose steppers to her as they look to me. Yet you all presumably want the same thing. Don’t you think blaming the Jew is a little bit dumb? Some are good. Some are bad. Just like any other large group of people.
Again, I think Jews have been at the forefront of this sort of thing for the same reasons they’ve been at the forefront of everything else; talent. Not malice. Is the EU some kind of Zionist plot? Are Jews at fault for the Muslim rape party now occurring in Sweden? As near as I can tell, most of the EU is not Jewish at all, but European leaders are destroying their monoracial homelands at rates which are … utterly fantastic compared to what we’re doing in America, which has never been a monoracial country in theory or practice. Why are they doing this? You tell me: you’re the one with the answers. Don’t tell me it’s the Jews, because they ain’t running the EU. It’s the leftist scum. None of the people responsible will ever be punished, though they should be; much more so than pro-immigration forces in America.
My own personal theory is a lot like Spengler’s. I think when people lose the faith of their ancestors, they will develop a defacto faith, which will contain the seeds of its own cultural destruction. The present faith among the atheistic upper middle classes has much in common with the faith of the fading Roman Empire; Manichaeism in particular. There was a parallel movement in the late Sassanid empire which nearly wiped it out as well; it was called Mazdakism. I’ve written at length on the subject and need to do so again to update my understanding of how this is playing out in Euro-American upper middle classes today. At least Rome’s death eventually produced Catholicism, Christendom and eventually the West itself. Mazdakism just made the Persians easy meat for Islam; they were completely demoralized by their civil war with their communist wife-swapping existential enemies. Today is no different. There are men and women who support life; keeping the cultural organism and old gods alive, and there are those who embrace death. It’s usually written on their faces who they are. There are Jews and Gentiles on either side of this battle, and it would behoove you to not alienate people who are your natural allies.
The “neocon = jew” argument is completely absurd. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, as near as I can tell, are Christians, and that was their war. Attributing the Iraq war to Jewish people is attributing super powers they do not possess. I supported the Iraq war, and am about as much Jew as I am a Chinese.
Also, kindly refrain from attempting to read my mind: unlike the big R, I have no evidence you possess Yoda-like mind reading powers.
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Roissy was on his game on this post.
“””””””””””””On May 3, CDC is scheduled to complete deployment of 25 percent of the supplies in the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) to all states in the continental United States. These supplies and medicines will help states and U.S. territories respond to the outbreak. In addition, the Federal Government and manufacturers have begun the process of developing a vaccine against the novel H1N1 flu virus
Response actions are aggressive, but they may vary across states and communities depending on local circumstances. Communities, businesses, places of worship, schools and individuals can all take action to slow the spread of this outbreak. People who are sick are urged to stay home from work or school and to avoid contact with others, except to seek medical care. This action can avoid spreading illness further.
“””””
only 615 cases in 15 countries so far very few deaths. Doesn’t seem horrable yet.
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Roissy,
The only “pandemic” is the MSM with their sensationalist hyper-reactions to even the most inane events, preying on the collective global fear of “the end.” Given that fear is justified, though not for the reasons peddled by the schmucks running the networks whose sole interests are to generate profits and cover the asses of the earth killing global conglomerates which, in turn, own their asses. At the height of this farce I read that two researches, working independently at Northwestern U. and Indiana U., had published separate papers on their models of the possible spread of H1N1. Both models showed that the possible nationwide spread of infection in the U.S., barring any intervention from medical authorities, would be limited to between 1100-1700 individuals. That’s not the death-toll, that’s the sum total of infected individuals. Why didn’t any of the networks run these stories? IMO it’s because good news isn’t as profitable, or doesn’t promote agenda’s, as much as bad news.
BTW I like it better when you stick to pick up artistry in your blog.
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