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Washington Post Fembot Tells Cuckold ‘Suck It Up’

A diligent reader emailed me a ‘Beta of the Month’ submission about a guy who fears he may have been cuckolded and who turns to a Washington Post advice columnist for support in his time of need. I read the article and decided that the real value to be gleaned was not in the unearthing of stupefying betatude (after all, at Chateau Heartiste where the better angels of humanity are handcuffed to bedposts and repeatedly gangbanged by their demonic cousins, mewling cuckolds are mere run of the mill betas), but in the reply to the beta chump by Carolyn Hax, a Washington Post Style columnist.

I reprint the column in full along with my remarks, so that you may glimpse the true face of woman.

Here is the original cry of anguish by the man who believes his child is not of his beta loin:

Hi, Carolyn:

I’m writing to you because I don’t know who else to ask. My wife and I have been happily married for six years. We have a beautiful daughter, age 2. For about the past six months I have suspected my daughter isn’t really “mine.” I have never suspected my wife of cheating on me, but for a number of reasons I cannot quiet my suspicions about the baby. I have not confronted my wife because I know that might devastate our marriage. But I have to know. What should I do?

Suspicious

If a man suspects his wife has cuckolded him, the odds of his child not being his rise to 30%. The general nonpaternity rate is around 4%. Low confidence “fathers” are right to be worried. Cuckoldry is serious business because it is the female form of rape.

So by the second sentence I know this guy is a Natural Born Beta. It’s always the guys getting most screwed by their wives who persist in believing they are “happily married” seconds before she’s caught with her boss’s dick in her mouth. Another telltale sign of the beta: If he cajoles tepid sex out of his wife once a month he thinks that is proof the marriage is full of love. If you want to know how well a marriage is doing, don’t look at the husband’s face for hints of marital bliss; look at the wife’s face.

Now we’ll examine the Style columnist’s family counseling advice. You may want to prepare a crucifix and garlic.

Give careful thought, please, to what you “have to” know.

This is going to be good. The first words out of her mouth are a slopbucket of shame aimed straight at… the man.

When just seeking the truth could change your life in dramatic and irreversible ways, it’s best to start not by actually doing something but by inviting each possible truth into your imagination as fact.

What the fuck does she mean here? This is postmodern therapeutic age gibberish squared. Nonsense on stilts. “Invite each possible truth into your imagination as fact”? Screw action, just imagine everything is true. Embrace the female way: Wallow in your psychodrama while getting nothing accomplished. It’s no wonder the newspaper empire is crumbling with the third rate hacks they have writing for them nowadays. I spewed more sensible shit after a 12 hour dorm room pot and Milwaukee’s Best bender.

That way, you can figure out the way you want your life to look before you start saying things you might regret.

Wait, did I miss something, or did Miss Hax Off Your Balls just guilt trip the guy who got cuckolded?

If your life were a physical structure, this would be the “blueprint before sledgehammer” approach.

Translation: If you just take a breather and don’t let your anger and pain get the best of you, you’ll find that life as a beta provider for an alpha’s kid isn’t so bad. Your wife will love you for your measured approach and self-sacrifice, and the most important thing is to keep your wife happy, right? Right? At the very least…

…do it for the children.

If your “number of reasons” points to infidelity, for example, then you need to imagine the worst, and assume your wife did cheat — Imaginary Scenario 1 — and then you need to decide whether you’d want to stay in the marriage or leave.

I’d think the decision would be self-evident, but hey, we’re talking about spineless betas and amoral women here, so everything is up for grabs. Bizzaro America!

If the answer is to stay (Scenario 1a), then you need to ask yourself, is that outcome better served by not digging into the past?

If the guy decides to stay and prove to the world what a pathetic sap he is, then I suppose he deserves the indignity of having his worthlessness as a man rubbed in his face every time his non-kid is in the same room with him. If he’s that low on the self-esteem pole then he might be able sack down and survive eighteen years without once mentioning his wife’s whoring and the kid who doesn’t look anything like him. I can imagine the thoughts going through his head, when years later our protagonist is coaching his daughter’s soccer team: “Wow, she’s so athletic and assertive. And so attractive, too. Maybe it’s for the best that my genes weren’t passed on. Life is beautiful!”

If the answer is to leave (1b), are you ready to challenge your paternity — or have it challenged by your at-that-point-estranged wife?

1b? Is this superfluous numbering system supposed to make her sound scientific? Maybe it’s just my male logic, but if the guy decides to leave the marriage on account of strong evidence — say, oh I dunno, a paternity test — that he is a cuckold, then it wouldn’t much matter if his cheating whore of a wife is estranged from him or challenges what he already challenged.

If, on the other hand, your suspicions are based solely on your child’s appearance, then you need to ask yourself if you’re being irrational; genes are a lot more complicated than the “She has a cleft chin and therefore can’t be mine” parlor games would suggest.

More shame. You starting to notice a pattern? This is what women do when they have nothing left to fall back on but hollow arguments. Fact: Babies look more like their fathers than their mothers. This is an evolutionary adaptation that ensures fathers will stick around to care for the infant. “Cleft chin” red herring notwithstanding, if the guy thinks his kid doesn’t look like him and therefore could be the cable guy’s kid, he’s got a 30% chance of being dreadfully right.

But let’s say instead you have an unshakeable gut instinct that this is someone else’s child. If you’re right, then the percentages would be obviously (and heavily) in favor of infidelity, which loops you back to Scenario 1.

Still, you can’t entirely rule out the rarer than rare, yet not unprecedented, hospital error — Scenario 2 –

She’s flailing.

so you also have to imagine your way through to the conclusion of a different worst-case altogether: If the baby turns out to be neither yours nor your wife’s biological child, would you still love this baby?

Alpha answer: No.
Beta answer: No, but I’ll say yes because it’s what’s expected of me.

Want to raise her?

Alpha answer: Hello, orphanage drop off box!
Beta answer: My wife said she’ll stop giving me biannual handjobs if I don’t say I’ll love the child as if it were my own.

Want to find your biological child and switch?

Style columnist Hax either has a weak grasp of human nature, or a weak grasp of rhetorical devices.

In other words, would it make a difference if this were error vs. deception?

No. If it was a hospital error, then the wife should be equally pleased as her husband to know the truth. Their marriage would remain strong, or at least viable, as they made arrangements with the hospital to find their true baby and swap kids with the other victimized family who mistakenly got their kid.

If it was deception, then their marriage (hopefully, but you can never know for sure with these congenital betas) will dissolve, but the cuckold will have spared himself the humility and genetic metadeath of providing for another man’s legacy with his sweat and tears while his own sad seed withers to dust.

If you decide you’d want this child no matter what, then the question becomes, again, why you’d want to risk everything to scratch even a torturous itch.

Is the idea of robbing a man of eighteen years of his life and a chance to bear and love his own children meaningless to this Style columnist? Here’s an analogy, Miss Hax, you could try wrapping your twisted cancerous soul around: A man getting cuckolded is the moral equivalent of a woman getting secretly implanted with another woman’s fertilized egg, giving birth to it, and raising it for eighteen years.

Is any of this getting through to you? Bitch?

And finally: What if you started digging, wrecked your marriage and learned your daughter is “yours”?

Q-tip swab of the kid’s cheek while the wife is away takes two seconds. He can have the sample tested with no one the wiser. If the kid is his, hey, he can sleep easy at night and feel good about helping his kid with her homework. The proof of his paternity might even motivate him to go down on his wife. If the kid isn’t his, the marriage was wrecked long before he “started digging”.

I urge you to imagine your way down every painful avenue here, best cases as well as worst.

Translation: I urge you to find it in your heart to put aside your doubts for the good of your wife and bastard child.

Then, once you’ve figured out what you can live with emotionally, please, if you’re considering any action at all, have a lawyer vet it legally.

Vet? Vetting is beta. Get the paternity test done before consulting any lawyers, and when you do get a lawyer with test results in hand, make sure your wife doesn’t find out about any of it until you slap her with the divorce papers. You don’t do battle with a whore by playing nice.

Only then can you be confident whether truth-seeking serves your interests — and your family’s — or smashes them to bits.

Shame! It’s what’s for dinner! Gotta love her admonishing a cuckold — the victim, remember? — that he needs to serve his family’s interest along with his own. I guarantee every woman reading this Post article nodded their heads in agreement with the author, and probably quite a few limpwristed faggy SWPL betaboys agreed, too. A better illustration of the second class status of beta males in society — as foretold by our evolutionary heritage — would be hard to find. Women are simply assumed to be moral paragons and Vestal Virgins, and betas are… there to be ransacked.

Give, betas, give till it hurts. And when the hurt begins, don’t bitch and moan about your endless torment. Just keep giving. While you’re paying the last ounce of tribute in self-respect, here’s some porn to keep your senses dulled.

***

Whenever I read articles by women attempting to grapple with the evil of cuckoldry, the impression I am always left with is one of fear. I can smell the fear in their words. It emanates from every ill-conceived shaming maneuver and transparent rationalization. The emptiness of their amoral excuse-mongering is beyond lame.

“If you confront your wife over her cheating your family will shatter.”

If she cheated the family is already shattered.

“You have to suck it up for the good of the child.”

She should have thought of the child’s welfare before spreading wide for the alpha interloper to blast in her pussy.

“What good will come of the truth?”

Good has got nothing to do with it. But justice and dignity do. Not to mention the Darwinian prime directive.

Finally, my favorite of all the cuckoldry excuser tactics:

“Be the GOOD MAN and take one for the team. After all… *wink wink*… it’s not like you’re gonna find another woman.”

To which a man should answer in the only way acceptable: FUUUUUUUCK YOU.

The fear coming from women when the spotlight is on efforts by men to expose cuckoldry is perfectly understandable. Humans fear most the loss of mating power, and the prerogative of women to get impregnated on the sly with an alpha while foisting the bill on a beta is a hardwired preference millions of years old. Any threat to the established order, especially an existential threat as game-changing as DNA paternity testing, will send women into involuntary apoplexies of hair-raising moral myopia. The beastly decrepitude of their animal souls will lay bare for all to see.

Hallmark doesn’t make cards for moments like these.

The first Sexual Apocalypse was heralded by the death song of the following Four Sirens: the Pill, No-Fault Divorce, Economic Gender Egalitarianism, and Misandrist Laws. But a new era is upon us. As I see it, the future of humanity will radically change once again with the coming of the Three Horsemen of the Second Sexual Apocalypse:

Widespread, accurate and accessible paternity testing.
The male Pill.
Realistic sexbots.

Paternity testing alone is enough to alter women’s sexual behavior in a big way. Mandatory paternity testing is already on the docket in some legislatures. There have been hopeful signs of justice being served. It’s not enough to say “Well, only 3-4% of women cuckold their husbands. So really, not much will change.” The impact isn’t in the marginal loss of cuckoldry as a mating strategy, but in the *perception* of loss by *all* women. Even the most faithful, loving wife has the corrupt core of a cheating whore buried deep in her hindbrain. Blasting rays of sunlight on her gnarled, caged id won’t be met with good cheer. I predict very few fertile-age women will be emotionally invested in men’s paternity rights, and in fact most of them will advocate against it. Pussywhipped beta males and opportunistic alpha males sufficiently sequestered from the negative consequences of their decisions will likely defend the women in hopes of short term gain in payment of sexual favors. If you think alpha males of middling resources would vigorously support mandatory paternity testing, remind yourself who benefits the most from cuckoldry.

Here is Miss Hax’s contact info:

Write to Tell Me About It, Style, 1150 15th St. NW, Washington, D.C. 20071, or tellme@washpost.com.

It would be fun if my readers sent her a link to my post under the ruse of fan mail. The goal isn’t to change her mind — no, that will never happen — the goal is to drive a chainsaw through her soul. To make her hurt. To sear her ego with the harsh, ugly truth. Sadism is an exquisite pleasure for those practitioners trained in the art of administering it.

***

A final note: I will play therapist for a moment and give proper counseling to Mr. “Suspicious”:

Q-tip. Swab. Paternity testing clinic. The rest is commentary.

And because I am a gracious and good man of charitable inclination, I also give my tender and supportive counseling to Miss Hax:

“Please, Miss Hax, take a seat on the couch over there. Yes, that’s good. Ok… now… tell me only the bad things that come to mind when you hear the word

C  U  N  T.”

1,048 Responses

  1. Preach it, my man. I cannot tell you how appalled I’ve always been by my (supposedly ethical) female friends’ barely-veiled-yet-brazen endorsement of exactly this kind of female behavior. You’re doing the Lord’s own work.


  2. Carolyn Hax has always been unintelligible. I tried to read her a few years ago, but I quickly gave up when I realized I had NO IDEA what she was saying. Worthless.


  3. This guy’s problem isn’t that he’s a beta.

    It’s that he’s a fucking idiot. You think “your” 2-year-old kid isn’t yours, and your first action is to write to a fucking newspaper columnist?


  4. Wow.

    Its stuff like this that makes me realize I am correct (for the millionth time) in never wanting to get married and to swoop mad amounts of fly girls.

    There is really no other option in life.

    Not like I mind.

    I like swooping tons of fly girls.

    - MPM


  5. I’m writing to you because I don’t know who else to ask
    friendless

    but for a number of reasons I
    insisted on self denial

    I have not confronted
    fearful

    I am with the women in this one. Guys like this must suffer. And be wiped out from the gene pool.


  6. It’s just ugly out there. Why don’t we paint the letter “A” on these women anymore?


  7. My wife and I have been happily married for six years. We have a beautiful daughter, age 2. For about the past six months I have suspected my daughter isn’t really “mine.”

    yeesh. i knew kassyk was cruel, but i never knew she married lol


  8. Imagine if paternity testing was required at the time of birth. Since fembots control our politics, it’s not very likely.


  9. on May 12, 2009 at 1:11 pm ironrailsironweights

    Does my wife have the seed of bald-eagle loving david alexander in her?

    Peter

    [editor: we've got to make you more interesting. it's audience appreciation day.]


  10. Why all the beating around the bush. He should just simply say to her what is on his mind. After a nice conversation where she verbally expresses her affection for him (he DID say they were “happily” married) he could sandwich his question thusly;

    I hear you telling me you love me and it makes me feel so good knowing that, but I’m wondering right now if that kid is actually mine or someone else’s. I think we should schedule a DNA paternity test. By the way, I love you too.

    See? Nice, sweet, simple, to the point, gets the job done.


  11. P.S. Too bad there’s not a test where a woman can test her husband’s DNA for children produced outside the marriage. Big difference I’m sure as she is not “paying” for them; or is she? Just a different type of payment. A payment called life, time, and trust wasted with lying cheater.


  12. sara I

    See? Nice, sweet, simple, to the point, gets the job done.

    i prefer Lifetime Channel stuff where one spouse is applauded for burning to death the one that smacks the other one around.

    just think how much more deeeeeee-lish-uss the TV-VL warnings shalll be when Torquemada’s tools are dusted off to punish one guilty of an even worse 18 years of anguished fraud


  13. Another telltale sign of the beta: If he cajoles tepid sex out of his wife once a month he thinks that is proof the marriage is full of love.

    A proxy for a low sex drive that could be common to all beta males or merely relief that he’s having more sex than his beta friends who get nothing at all?

    “Wow, she’s so athletic and assertive. And so attractive, too. Maybe it’s for the best that my genes weren’t passed on. Life is beautiful!”

    The flip side of that is that if people can’t really tell, then the success of that child is attributed to you, and in theory, you could leverage that to attract other women who may find you attractive. Of course, what I just wrote was basically pointless since it’s the equivalent of using a rented car to attract women. Eventually, your beta ways will reveal all and remove any options for an extra-marital affair. Plus, that presumes she stays around and you’re not plunking money down on child support for her when you barely see her at your court ordered custody meets.

    The fear coming from women when the spotlight is on efforts by men to expose cuckoldry is perfectly understandable.

    As I stated last night, some men are for hugging and other men are for fucking, and I suspect there’s a subconscious operating practice in women that attempts to maximize that situation. Of course, it doesn’t work if the betas know that they’re only useful for hugs and either opt-out entirely or just go the platonic friend route which only gives limited support and resources.


  14. “I am with the women in this one. Guys like this must suffer. And be wiped out from the gene pool.”

    If he’s a loser (which he is) then she’s the loser who married the loser.

    Whatever way you come at it from, it boils down to social acceptance of the rape of man. Its ethically wrong, no matter how much the man sucks. If he sucks that bad, let him die alone.


  15. Ha Ha

    Sara I is full of shit.


  16. i’ll be the devil’s advocate here.

    given that women that cuckold are not shamed anymore, but rather feel “empowered”, and this kind of behaviour towards betas is unlikely to go away until the mexican-islamic order dawns over America,

    option 1: he breaks the marriage. She takes part of his income in alimony. It will be too much for him, but too few for her. The child will get a sub-par infancy. the woman can only re-enter the sexual market as a cougar. The guy can re-enter, but I don’t see THAT many wounded betas getting an alpha conversion after such a massive cuckold.

    option 2: marriage remains. Alpha offspring gets the best education possible. Cheating whore remains with EXACTLY the same sexual options she would get after a divorce. cuckolded beta pays entirely for the child education. And is wiped from the gene pool.

    coldly speaking, divorce hurts woman and child and won’t necessarily benefit the beta. After divorce, it is quite possible that the husband won’t have ANY sex life excluding hookers. How old is he? how much of his income will he keep after alimony? does he still have friends going out?

    people just assume that the cuckolded husband will go from once-a-month-sex to G-manifesto like massive swooping of fly girls.


  17. on May 12, 2009 at 1:18 pm sara I

    “I hear you telling me you love me and it makes me feel so good knowing that, but I’m wondering right now if that kid is actually mine or someone else’s. I think we should schedule a DNA paternity test. By the way, I love you too.”

    Knowing human nature as I do – the angriness of the woman’s ouburst at that point would be a solid indicator of the test results.


  18. woman are practical. not in a business-like way, but in what concerns relationships. Practical to the point of forgetting about ethics. Just like any successful businessman will always resort to anti-ethical behaviour given the chance

    the rbeak up of this marriage hurts two of three certainly and doesn’t necessarily benefit the third. the maintainance benefits two of three and is not necessary a worst outcome for the third.

    there is also the bonus-argument, the hitlerian argument, that the gene pool is improved by more alpha offspring.


  19. on May 12, 2009 at 1:40 pm Cannon's Canon

    “When just seeking the truth could change your life in dramatic and irreversible ways, it’s best to start not by actually doing something but by inviting each possible truth into your imagination as fact.” – Hax

    I’m actually in partial agreement with the author’s female psyche here. I am in the process of employing the same strategy toward the future murders I will commit. I want to make sure that I can face myself confidently and proudly after the fact. So, I try to address myself as a cold-blooded killer to see if I can deal with it (so far, no problems).

    I used the same deliberation process before my first steroids cycle.


  20. gig: the beta has better chances as he gets older. Furthermore, the simple act of kicking his cuckolding wife to the curb may serve to make him a little less of a little bitch. Obviously, if he’s too chickenshit to do so, he wouldn’t have better prospects outside marriage anyway.

    That said, this strikes me as a situation where damage to the individuals serves society’s best interests. Over the long run, society will be much better off if cuckolding women are ruthlessly shamed and them and their children cut out from the ‘pack’. The man should be encouraged to act like a man in the true sense of the word, not in the be-a-beta-provider sense.


  21. Over the long run, society will be much better off if cuckolding women are ruthlessly shamed

    Unless mandatory paternity testing is imposed, or Sharia becomes the law of land, as Americans say, this kind of behaviour has ZERO chance of going away.

    Since it won’t go away, individual tragedies won’t add to the common good. They will remain individual tragedies.


  22. Dont forget artifical wombs Roissy.

    That will be the biggest blow to women of them all, and there are coming, probably in about 20 years.

    When men can pick beautiful, intelligent, college age-women’s eggs, and have a couple of kids on their OWN, that no woman can (via the courts) take away from them, why would any of them settle for an actual wife at all (other than for religious reaons).

    I would think a man would be better off paying for some hot European chick’s eggs, having the 9 month incubator “birth” them at a lab, and enjoy raising his -own- couple of kids while he chases pussy out there openly for the rest of his life.

    Women, basically have this option now. They can just get knocked up, and make some chump pay them child support, and enjoy chasing a variety of men while their kids are still theirs—-and cannot be taken away by the biological fathers.

    When men have the same option, it will truly change out there.

    What really happened between the sexes, happened when the state determined that children BELONG to the mothers, and routinely awarded the mothers custody and child support. I think the state should always award joint custody (kids at one house one week, and the other house the next) IN ALL cases, and NO CHILD SUPPORT (he has them just as much as she does). That would fix most of the unfairness we see in “family” courts.


  23. Sara I, you bizznich. You take the child our for the afternoon “to give you the day off, honey.” Take it to a doctor in another town that you’ve never seen before and pay cash to him for a genetic test. Get the results mailed to your work/pick up a few days later.

    Or do it at home, but at a Dr.’s office is safer.

    Asking a wife’s permission? Just hand in your balls right there.


  24. on May 12, 2009 at 1:51 pm Default User

    sara I

    Why all the beating around the bush…

    Stop taunting GNPeter (ironrailsironweights)


  25. on May 12, 2009 at 1:52 pm ironrailsironweights

    Why all the beating around the bush.

    Do you mean the sweetly trimmed bush often seen on the types of pretty young women i no longer have access to? *sigh*.

    Peter

    [editor: construction ahead.]


  26. Oh please. This guy is useless as husband and mate. Speaking as the bull from a couple hot-wife/cuck situation (long ago in a galaxy far far away) this guy is almost a poster child.

    He dutifully goes about his business, oblivious to all female signals that his wife is lonely, unhappy and horny as hell, doesn’t stand up to her because he has no backbone, etc etc etc. When hotwife goes on the business trip, her roaming eyes pick up on some tall, dark, handsome male (or the other holy trinity of big brain, big muscles, big cock), then both use the 1000-mile excuse for free-wheeling banging, and since women are most ready to stray at egg-time, viola — little cute girlie baby with double serving of I’m-gonna-fuck genes.

    I bet the odds in this case are 99% that the kid isn’t his. I bet if remembers, there will be a moment about two weeks too late for his baby’s conception where hotwife decided to bang hubby out of style for a few days to cover the stray, and then she conveniently “backdated” the sex at the OB/GYN’s office.

    If he were a real man he would get the damn paternity test and with a positive result in hand prepare the multiple nuke strikes of a crushing divorce proceeding making sure alimony and child support were nil.


  27. It’s the same in every society that’s ever existed: when women and gay men are given free social reign without condemnation for their actions, the society falls.


  28. All the cartoons that accompany Caroline Hax’s columns are drawn by HER EX HUSBAND
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_hax

    …………………..she would definitely know all about betas…..


  29. sara I, being the womyn she is:

    “Just a different type of payment. A payment called life, time, and trust wasted with lying cheater.”

    -lol. Or a lifetime of hot sex, trying to prevent her man from screwing around yet secretly enjoying the fact that he beds hotter women besides himself yet doesn’t leave her, making her feel worthy.

    If sara’s man went muff diving in 22 year old pussy but came up for air to pay her bills, she ‘d hem and haw publically and then spread her legs nightly just thinking about what other pussy his dick’s been in.

    Hmm, maybe women ARE secretly all lesbians.

    A woman talking about trust being the foundation to a marriage (typical modern pseudo-intellectual nonsense) is always talking about the man *never questioning* her actions, not the other way around.


  30. Related stories here:

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/29035.html

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/28570.html

    Please not that the power of the State is behind this kind of shit. You will be fucked over, once buy your cheating whore of a wife and again by the State. Forget any sense of justice, that idea is long gone (true justice being something that many would never want to actually confront).

    lurker is correct however, the society in which we live is an increasingly shaky edifice that is actually in the process of collapsing. Free reign has been given to culture destroyers, not culture bearers and creators. We are paying the price. One good thing though is that bloody revenge will be wrought upon those who have put us in this situation. Perhaps even men like the one who wrote this letter will become Men again.


  31. — Why all the beating around the bush. He should just simply say to her what is on his mind.

    Sara is right. If a husband can’t look at his pregnant wife and joke “you know that if I have my doubts, I’m taking a DNA test?”

    Or look at his little bouncing toddler and joke “is he/she mine? ’cause I don’t run like that. I think I’m getting a DNA test”

    … then it’s like Guns n Roses said:

    What we’ve got here
    Is failure to communicate.

    Is it that damn hard to swing enough of a sac in your marriage to make veiled warnings wrapped in a joke to your wife?

    Why do so many men walk on eggshells with their women? Where’s the damn fear coming from?


  32. on May 12, 2009 at 2:06 pm Roissy is a Troll

    Roissy calls cheating women female rapists….and yet he won’t codemn the men who sleep with these women. If men would simply stop sleeping with committed women, we wouldn’t have these situations.


  33. Gig

    After divorce, it is quite possible that the husband won’t have ANY sex life excluding hookers.

    Maybe – but necessity is the mother of invention. He’ll re-invent himself, one way or another, if his T level is high enough. Might take a few decades, but whatever it takes is worth it. Living a life of quiet desparation is not living.


  34. Look at who gets to advise women in our society folks (boy am I gonna catch some shit for this!)

    1) Ann Landers (real name Ester Lederer)
    2) Pauline Phillips (Ann Landers real-life sister, “Popo” Lederer—-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Landers

    3 Judith Martin (Miss Manners) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Martin

    4 Heloise (Ask Heloise)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heloise_(columnist)

    5 Ruth Westheimer (Dr. Ruth) (Karola Siegel)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Ruth

    6 Carolyn Hax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_hax

    What do ALL of these women have in common? Its impolite as all hell to mention it, but why do the gals from one little group get to be the advice columnists in newspapers all across this nation because of syndicated newspapers?

    (told you that it would be impolite) Just pointing out something that is true folks…….sorry.


  35. I would like to see paternity testing mandatory in welfare payments from the state. To qualify for welfare, a girl/woman would need to identify the father, as in, “I know who my baby-daddy be.” NO DADDY, NO MONEY. It could transform the welfare culture.


  36. Makes me want to just kick a bitch! (wait..Where is kick a bitch??)

    People in general don’t want you too see the truth in anything. In this case it would be questioning marriage and or a womens amoral nature.

    In this case the more you are kept ignorant about this topic, the less of a threat you pose to the established, “shut the fuck up beta, and provide” order that has been going on since the dawn of time.

    I still dont get how this man can’t just go up to his women and say what the fuck is on his mind. How ball-less can a man really be?


  37. Agree – paternity test first, then legal action depending on results. Relocate to the state with the most male-friendly paternity/divorce laws efore filing. On that point – question for this group: anyone happen to know which state that is? Nevada?

    Advice columnists will *always* be biased toward the female point of view. Duh.


  38. gig

    coldly speaking, divorce hurts woman and child and won’t necessarily benefit the beta.

    What should happen is what happened in this sort of situation in America only a few years ago.

    The cheating woman should get no child support or alimony from the man who’s child it isn’t and who upon learning that doesn’t want to support her. Instead the courts view her conduct (including her deception of her husband for so long about some of such crucial importance, reproduction) with disgust and disdain, and award her very little of her husband’s accumulated savings.

    If anyone is going to have to support her it should be the father of her child, though there too since (presumably) he didn’t provably undertake to do so, the cheating slut and her bastard are on their own.

    This treatment will make this behavior rare again. Instead, while the feminist inspired fairly recently changed family law remains as it is in the Anglosphere, I truly do expect the percentage of cuckolded babies to grow greatly among gen Y there.

    So guys, test paternity at birth. If she doesn’t agree, do it anyway. If you divorce her within a year or two of birth then I think in every state (or certainly the great majority), you wlll not be on the hook for child support.


  39. gig–

    BTW, I consider murder fully morally justified in a case such as this, if the divorced wife does go after her hoodwinked ex husband for child support that isn’t his.

    I don’t give a rip how agast lefties and most women will be. Tough. Fully justified.

    That’s not the same as saying it’s the wisest course of action for him, though credible threats along that line probably is.


  40. typical female:
    I would like to see paternity testing mandatory in welfare payments from the state.

    i would like to see mandatory paternity testing for every child born. MPT would remove the discomfort of having to make an emotionally charged choice at a sensitive time.
    but the benefit of avoiding 18 years of slavery is worth it.

    To qualify for welfare, a girl/woman would need to identify the father, as in, “I know who my baby-daddy be.” NO DADDY, NO MONEY. It could transform the welfare culture.

    if you’re willing to take that step, there’s no argument you can make against taking the further step of instituting MPT for all births. after all, the cuckold’s money is just as green as the government’s money.
    and just as ill-gotten.


  41. Two words. Drew. Peterson.


  42. “Roissy calls cheating women female rapists….and yet he won’t codemn the men who sleep with these women. If men would simply stop sleeping with committed women, we wouldn’t have these situations.”

    Because its a man’s job to honor a woman’s commitment?

    The only way we should blame men for a woman failing to honor her vows is if women fundamentally lack self control. If that is the case, they should lose all rights and be put back into the kitchen.

    How do you think they would respond to that?

    No, we live in an era where women lay claim to opportunity and free will. Therefore, when they take that free will and do horrible things with it, we lay the blame at their feet.


  43. @lurker,

    A woman talking about trust being the foundation to a marriage (typical modern pseudo-intellectual nonsense) is always talking about the man *never questioning* her actions, not the other way around.

    A woman, (me), who talks about trust as the foundation of a marriage can enjoy a long-term marriage. Those who can’t trust will be doomed to loneliness.


  44. on May 12, 2009 at 2:20 pm johnnymarks

    I had a long debate with a female friend of mine the other day about her sister, who after, being married for less than 1 year, has already cheated.

    While my supposedly (at least in her own eyes) moral friend begrudgingly admits that her sister’s cheating was wrong, she added the caveat that “whatever’s wrong in a marriage is never just one person’s fault.” (Hence, of course, shifting the blame in part to the cheated-upon husband.)

    What followed involved a debate over how best the husband should punish her sister (she didn’t enjoy this very much). At first, I admitted (my own begrudging) respect for the Muslims in Pakistan and elsewhere who throw acid in the face of a cheating woman.

    My friend tried to shame me out of this (perhaps rightly) with the argument that “you can’t punish her for life for a one-time event.” Partial agreement from me. (Her sister is quite beautiful, btw.)

    However, for the cases that Roissy describes, of a woman saddling a man with not only genetic metadeath, but also with 18 years of raising some other man’s progeny, I think the acid-facial too weak a punishment.

    My alternative–and I would love to see some cuckolded bastard do this just once to set an example for all women–would involve tying her upside-down and naked, spread-eagled between two trees (posts, etc).

    Then, the jaded ex would shove a funnel into her cheating cunt, and pour a bottle of professional strength liquid drano into her whore-hole until it rotted out her uterus.

    The best part–especially for v. attractive cheaters like my friend’s sister? She could forever bask in the adoring attention of interested men but could never again receive any sexual fulfillment. Her rotted-out pussy would mirror her rotten heart and justice would be served.


  45. What do you say about bringing back chastity belts?I hear modern updated belts have been brought out somewhere.(I forget where exactly).An ounce of prevention…


  46. doug

    you just made me remember of a song in portuguese, called “entre a serpente e a estrela” (between the serpent and the star)
    the first verses are like this

    “there is always a shinning knife, whetever love appears
    because no one has a map, for the soul of a woman
    nobody leaves without a bleeding heart, once he tries to uncover
    a marvelous being, between the serpent, and the star”

    I fully agree with your assesment about murder. This is how Western Civilization was built and gained its edge over the rest of the world.


  47. @roissy ,
    if you’re willing to take that step, there’s no argument you can make against taking the further step of instituting MPT for all births. after all, the cuckold’s money is just as green as the government’s money.

    Big difference. For almost all women, being presumed guilty by the state destroys trust all around. For the welfare mom, finding a genetic daddy is simply a hoop to jump in order to obtain a money gift from the state.

    all analogies are incomplete.


  48. Hmmm…Interesting…wonder what the take will be on Ayelet Waldman….she wrote a two page article in the NYT basically saying, in a nutshell, despite their four children, her husband dick her is the center of her life. This focus the characteristics of her husband(as described by her.)

    Here is the article.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/fashion/27love.html?pagewanted=1


  49. Roissy is a Troll

    “If men would simply stop sleeping with committed women, we wouldn’t have these situations.”

    That would only happen in a fantasy land.

    It is also not a principle of nature.

    On the other hand, Alphas swooping mad amounts of girls is.

    - MPM


  50. roissy

    Cuckoldry is serious business because it is the female form of rape.

    It isn’t because it cannot be. You might want to consult a dictionary.

    Alpha answer: No.
    Beta answer: No, but I’ll say yes because it’s what’s expected of me.

    This hardly has anything to do with the alpha/beta dichotomy. You may think it’s important that your child is biologically yours, but not everyone does. Personally, I don’t see what difference it makes. Given the choice, I would rather adopt.

    The G Manifesto

    Wow.

    Its stuff like this that makes me realize I am correct (for the millionth time) in never wanting to get married and to swoop mad amounts of fly girls.

    There is really no other option in life.

    Not like I mind.

    I like swooping tons of fly girls.

    Is it possible that you could take your roleplaying nonsense to a more appropriate venue, like, say, World of Warcraft?

    z

    think the state should always award joint custody (kids at one house one week, and the other house the next) IN ALL cases

    Even in cases where one parent is abusive and incompetent?


  51. Gig

    the rbeak up of this marriage hurts two of three certainly and doesn’t necessarily benefit the third. the maintainance benefits two of three and is not necessary a worst outcome for the third.

    there is also the bonus-argument, the hitlerian argument, that the gene pool is improved by more alpha offspring.

    Some people choose to adopt, so not all people consider kids as a gene passing on thing. They see legacy as more familial than paternal.

    But as for what benefits the man? If his being cuckolded is any indication of his alpha or beta status, of who wears the pants in his marriage, then he’s best to get out, at all costs. ALL costs.

    As I said, it’s better to be dead than merely alive.


  52. I’ll add my comment from another column:

    which has more destructive long-term consequences?
    -the state to undermine trust in it’s women, or
    -a tiny percentage of men to be cuckholded?

    Trust is a fundamental nurturing value to society. Everyone wants to be trusted. Presumption of guilt cuts deep. Imagine how you’d feel toward your state if you were presumed guilty, and had to prove your innocence.


  53. gig:
    i’ll be the devil’s advocate here.

    i’ll be the devil.

    given that women that cuckold are not shamed anymore, but rather feel “empowered”, and this kind of behaviour towards betas is unlikely to go away until the mexican-islamic order dawns over America,

    paternity testing is not the same as ushering in an islamic caliphate.

    option 1: he breaks the marriage. She takes part of his income in alimony.

    this is an example of how far basic moral reasoning has fallen among western men. blame no-fault divorce, SWPL suckassery, and parasitic lawyers for this mess.
    if he breaks the marriage over cuckoldry, she does not deserve ONE RED CENT. in fact, ex-wives do not deserve any alimony at all. but that is a subject for another day.

    It will be too much for him, but too few for her.

    not at all. if the divorce industrial complex were dismantled, he could rightfully walk away from his cheating wife and her bastard child scot-free, with zero obligations and a new lease on life.

    The child will get a sub-par infancy.

    so? a real man couldn’t care less if his ex-wife’s child of another man’s seed were to be exposed on a hilltop to hungry vultures.

    the woman can only re-enter the sexual market as a cougar.

    her body, her choice.

    The guy can re-enter, but I don’t see THAT many wounded betas getting an alpha conversion after such a massive cuckold.

    you are confused. even if such an alpha conversion were not forthcoming, the beta would be able to hold his head high that he is not toiling day and night to reward a whore who came multiple times in orgasmic release with another man on his watch.
    he would be released from a veritable prison to at least have the opportunity, if not the guarantee, of finding another woman who hasn’t betrayed him in the worst way imaginable.

    option 2: marriage remains.

    fool.

    Alpha offspring gets the best education possible.

    what good does this do the cuckold?

    Cheating whore remains with EXACTLY the same sexual options she would get after a divorce.

    not quite. she’s a single mom with a kid. that cuts into cougar clubbing right there. and don’t make the mistake of conflating sexual options with commitment options. a ssingle mom could still have some sexual outlet while suffering badly in the commitment market.

    cuckolded beta pays entirely for the child education.

    it’s quite a thing to live in fear, isn’t it?

    And is wiped from the gene pool.

    good for society? maybe.
    good for him? no.

    coldly speaking, divorce hurts woman and child and won’t necessarily benefit the beta.

    wrong. it will benefit the beta in ways he has yet to comprehend.
    if the whore and bastard suffer, well, like i say…
    she should have thought of that before fucking around.

    After divorce, it is quite possible that the husband won’t have ANY sex life excluding hookers.

    at least he gives himself the chance.

    How old is he? how much of his income will he keep after alimony? does he still have friends going out?

    you could say all the same things about the ex-wife. except for one glaring albatross — he doesn’t have to worry about a kid cutting into his funtime.

    people just assume that the cuckolded husband will go from once-a-month-sex to G-manifesto like massive swooping of fly girls.

    sex is not the crux of the issue, gig. slavery to a whore and her ill-conceived child is the issue. he may not get any more sex than he had in marriage (though that is unlikely as a wife who cheats is a wife who isn’t sexing her husband) but he has spared himself the horror of the cuckold’s fate.
    the freedom alone is worth the marginal odds of slightly more frequent sex staying with his whore.


  54. on May 12, 2009 at 2:34 pm Kick a Bitch

    Writing the fucking harpy now…


  55. artifical wombs

    These will never be much of a factor, because:

    1. For a man, a big part of the thrill of having kids is actually having sex with the said hot woman and essentially colonizing her body for nine months. Getting an attractive woman to bear your children is an accomplishment. Yeah baby!
    2. Much as many of us like kids, really we mostly want the wife to do the day to day stuff.


  56. Anony

    Those who can’t trust will be doomed to loneliness.

    Utter bulshit. Trust has no place in a marriage. Predictability does. You trust her to do what you expect. What she says is irrelevent, entirely.

    Therefore, being a student of human nature, and knowing that all women are deep down devilish whores is essential for any good marriage.

    Trust is for chumps.


  57. xsplat–

    They see legacy as more familial than paternal.

    They’re wrong.

    Lots of delusions exist. The delusion about the primacy of culture and environment rather than genetics has a lot to do with the openness to adoption that many people have in the West. That delusion is knowingly perpetuated by the left, much of which knows it’s really at least partly false.

    Myself I’d never agree to adopt. Children are enough of a pain and a burden that at least I’d want a genetic immortality out of it, as well as a cultural imprint.


  58. johnnymarks,

    I know what you mean.

    One of my family members cheated on her husband. After 21 fucking years of marriage, and 3 kids. When asked,why did you do it?

    …Her response,” It was both of our fault.”

    Bitch please..


  59. Roissy, you sound like a Good Christian Boy who grew up on a steady hypno-diet on the purity and holiness of monogamy, only to be pushed by reality into the very extremes of misogyny. And I say this as guy who would have slapped sense into the whimpering idiot who asked that question. We, men and women, have always been calculating even if these calculations have been folded into the creases of our subconscious.
    We all live within the protective shade of some delusion; religion, a better life around the corner, love. By letting pretty lies perish, you are standing naked in the bitterly cold winds of depressive realism. And what would you accomplish by that?
    Some of us may be disgusted by the thought of nurturing a blood parasite, but the cost of cuckoldry is only one among the many factors we weigh in a marriage. Marriage itself has been a convenient cultural institution offering social mobility or stability, and steady non-sexual companionship through our entertainment impoverished history.
    A beta’s love for the companionship and cultural status as a married provider may outweigh the cost of the cheating whore he’s married to. Why then must he acknowledge the glaring truth of fake paternity, when he can continue to cocoon himself in his six year delusion? Yes, we can still use paternity testing at the very outset (and when possible, right after fertilization) to influence the reproductive calculations women make. What the vague Carolyn is couching in fuzzy sentences is a reminder to weigh all costs. Some guys can handle the truth, and some like this one need it in gentle sugar-coated doses. We humans have always been calculating whores, conveniently promiscuous in all our relations, but you seem to have realized that a bit late and look at world in the starkest possible tones.


  60. which has more destructive long-term consequences?
    -the state to undermine trust in it’s women, or
    -a tiny percentage of men to be cuckholded?

    There has to be some real basis for that trust. Right now 30-40% of women cheat.


  61. on May 12, 2009 at 2:39 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    “editor: we’ve got to make you more interesting.”

    Do G-Manifesto and Obsidian too.


  62. schoolboy

    …Her response,” It was both of our fault.”

    She’s replaying what she’s learned countless times through our entertainment media.

    In contrast, women rarely if ever say the same thing when their husbands, or the husbands of their friends or family members, cheat.

    Then it’s all or certainly overwhelmingly the man’s fault.

    Think about that from examples known to you. It’s not an exaggeration, is it?


  63. Sara I:
    “A woman, (me), who talks about trust as the foundation of a marriage can enjoy a long-term marriage. Those who can’t trust will be doomed to loneliness.”

    –lmao. You mean you beta-whipped your husband while you sleep around? Yes, I’m sure you’re quite happy. Keep telling yourself that.

    Trust in a marriage is SWPL language, invented out of some disney-movie-haze and has no basis in reality.

    Trust, but verify.

    Anony, with no logic”
    “For almost all women, being presumed guilty by the state destroys trust all around.”
    —lmao rofl. Translation: I am afraid of being caught. Only betas trust women; you’ve been lyign to us since the day you were born, there is no trust.

    “For the welfare mom, finding a genetic daddy is simply a hoop to jump in order to obtain a money gift from the state.”
    —not really. most ghetto whores sleep around constantly—its not just a one time mistake (lol, love how feminists still try to make them “the fallen woman.”)

    Having to force a bunch of shiftless bums to take a paternity test—or, goodness forbird, trying to track down the one rapper you were a groupie for for one night and get him to take one—would be onerous task for every welfare queen. The ones who were worthless whores would end up giving up the kids to adoption, which is probably better than living with a skank mom. See: Rorshach.


  64. on May 12, 2009 at 2:41 pm Kick a Bitch

    My email:

    Carolyn,

    Do the world a favor and check out the following blog about your May 10th article in which you attempted to shame a cuckolded male into raising another man’s DNA.

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/washington-post-fembot-tells-cuckold-suck-it-up/

    You are a proponent of male-rape. Shame on you…

    haha…. let’s see is she has the balls to face Roissy-poo.

    and Sara, go gargle some nuts in your mouth please…

    note i said “please”.


  65. Good post Roissy.

    Mandatory Paternity Testing is inevitable. Nothing can stop it, it is the logical next step from The Pill and Abortion. Think about it.

    Moreover, the Maury Show has made Daddy Testing widespread in its existence and usage; everyone knows the procedure, and a quick look through the phone book or Google reveals numerous locations where it can be done. Additionally, there are indeed home test kits available.

    There should be no time limit imposed on the validity of test, since Women are well known to be excellent concealers; the only thing that matters is whether the test results indicate that so and so is or is NOT the father. Period.

    In the case of unwed mommys who approach the State for funding, no fingering the putative dad so he can be tested, no money; and if no dad can be positively ID genetically as the daddy, again, no money. There are (religious) charities out there who can do the job. A little judgment, lecturing and guilt goes a long way in such circumstances. As do orphanages and adoption when proven that the mommy is incapable of raising her baby on her own.

    In a marriage, proof of cuckoldry is a breach of the marital contract and as such is immediate grounds for divorce, removing any and all chances for the wife to receive any form of settlements, support payments and the like. Until the states reflect this sound reasoning, the Man should take all steps necessary to go off the grid and move his money around into impregnable-pardon the pun-tax shelters. Failing that, he should emply what every captain of every ship does-self destruct-get rid of all money and assets, from giving it away to charities, to literally burning it down to the ground, so as to prevent the whore wife from getting *anything*. Besides, a Man can always rebuild.

    MPT costs can easily be bundled into the hospital bills upon birth, fully refundable to the putative father should they be negative; if a father cannot be found, the mother should pay. In the case of welfare, the properly ID daddy should pay, along w/the usual reimbursments for services rendered. In the event the daddy cannot be found, the mommy should pay, and it be deducted from her wages whenever she gets work.

    The feminist arguments abou what’s in the best interest of the child are easily countered. One need not recount them here, but a simple retelling of the many arguments feminists themselves have used to advance everything from single(mom) parenting by choice to Roe v Wade will suffice. Logic would dictate that the same arguments apply here.

    One final thought. Just as Rape is a test of whether Men will come forward, enmasse, to call their own into account, the question of Paternity Fraud is a test of just how humane Women are; will they remain largely silent, even in the face of overwhelming evidence based on the facts of our age? Or will they fight on in their effort to justify the actions of their sisters? Or wil they be noticeably conspicuous in their relative silence?

    Time will tell. Mandatory Daddy Testing, one way or another, is coming, soon.

    O


  66. “These will never be much of a factor, because:

    1. For a man, a big part of the thrill of having kids is actually having sex with the said hot woman and essentially colonizing her body for nine months. Getting an attractive woman to bear your children is an accomplishment. Yeah baby!
    2. Much as many of us like kids, really we mostly want the wife to do the day to day stuff.”

    If we have artificial wombs, we’ll probably have fairly realistic sex-bots. You aren’t going to combine them into one figure, but it probably wouldn’t matter to most men.

    An artificial womb wouldn’t hurt women much, for the reasons you mention.

    Sex-bots would cause them a lot of problems, but still be manageable in that most beta male providers would still have to settle down with a woman in order to have children.

    Sex-bots and artificial wombs? The bottom would fall out of the beta male provider supply. If the supply of beta male providers drops by even 10%, that would probably have catastrophic affects on the gender power balance, moving from feminism back towards equality or even over to masculism. Women are never going to run out of alpha males willing to fuck them when they are young, but they’re going to find the supply of beta male providers willing to take care of them after 35 suddenly dry up. Shit would hit the fan.


  67. piece of shit:
    Big difference.

    no.

    For almost all women, being presumed guilty by the state destroys trust all around.

    if that were the case, there would be no need for marriage contracts.

    For the welfare mom, finding a genetic daddy is simply a hoop to jump in order to obtain a money gift from the state.

    and duping a beta provider chump is simply a hoop to jump in order to obtain a money gift from an individual.
    in both cases, the money gift is an ill-gotten gain.

    all analogies are incomplete.

    your morality is incomplete.


  68. I don’t care what anyone says, Cuckolding IS rape, done to men. Even though women may have used my seed to cuckold other men (through the sperm bank), it is BAD, and I don’t want even my own to be used that way.

    This is why I utterly lost all respect for Chic Noir. This ditz had the gall to say that (wait for it)…

    “Women give up so much when they get married”

    (implying that men give up much less).

    This was one of those times when a single sentence from a commenter immediately disqualifies everything else they say, since they have revealed a warped worldview that is so heavily flawed that it is absurd.

    Women give up more than men by getting married….sheesh.


  69. Micheal

    Over the long run, society will be much better off if cuckolding women are ruthlessly shamed and them and their children cut out from the ‘pack’.

    You’ve got it backwards. It’s in societies best interest that the genes of the alphas are widely promoted. Society is based on people, and the best people have the best genes. The alphas tend to have the best genes. All animals know that, including female human animals.


  70. Thursday–

    Right now 30-40% of women cheat.

    Which is a huge increase.

    The media want to say it’s all because women are working outside the home far more than previously. Horseshiit.

    It’s primary because: 1) women are no longer generally scorned and treated with contempt for doing it, but rather often sympathy and rarely clearly disapproving judgment. (At least at the left half or even 2/3 of the spectrum.) Judging is bad!!

    2) It’s due to divorce law changes. Women no longer pay a huge divorce property division and child support / alimony diminution for being proven to have cheated, as they did not long ago. This is huge. People often don’t think so. They’re wrong. It’s not a dollars and cents calculation thing. It’s the lack of economic horror stories as object lessons among her girlfriends.


  71. anony:

    “which has more destructive long-term consequences?
    -the state to undermine trust in it’s women, or
    -a tiny percentage of men to be cuckholded?”

    —isn’t that just like a SWPLer? Rationalizing cheating and your being a bitch”for the good of everyone?” I feel like I’m in Animal Farm here; men are just Boxer the Horse to these people.

    “Trust is a fundamental nurturing value to society.”
    —lmao. Someone has no idea about history or civilization or how they are formed.

    And if that were true, SWPLer, then you should be against diversity, since it breeds mistrust.

    “Everyone wants to be trusted.”
    —so they can fuck with everyone

    “Presumption of guilt cuts deep.”
    —for a woman, because they are always guilty.

    “Imagine how you’d feel toward your state if you were presumed guilty, and had to prove your innocence.”
    —so pay up for the cable guy’s child, kid!

    Down, down we go….


  72. “What the vague Carolyn is couching in fuzzy sentences is a reminder to weigh all costs. Some guys can handle the truth, and some like this one need it in gentle sugar-coated doses.”

    “gentle, sugar coated doses?”

    i.e when she’s good and ready to tell the man after years of extortion or never at all!

    The Turth shall set you free. A bucket of cold water across the face, a smack across the mouth and a foot up your ass. Stop peddling the modern, therapeutic bullshit, please.


  73. johnnymarks

    At first, I admitted (my own begrudging) respect for the Muslims in Pakistan and elsewhere who throw acid in the face of a cheating woman.

    My alternative–and I would love to see some cuckolded bastard do this just once to set an example for all women–would involve tying her upside-down and naked, spread-eagled between two trees (posts, etc).

    Then, the jaded ex would shove a funnel into her cheating cunt, and pour a bottle of professional strength liquid drano into her whore-hole until it rotted out her uterus.

    I sincerely hope you are hit by a bus as soon as possible, you fucking oxygen thief. I’m guessing you you also give your “begrudging respect” to Muslims who throw acid on the faces of girls and women who dress “immodestly” or go to school.

    I predict that I’ll be the only male here who has anything against johnnymarks’ post. Despite any claims to the contrary they may make, anti-feminists are violently misogynistic and about the only thing preventing them from committing rape or murder is fear of punishment.

    The G Manifesto

    That would only happen in a fantasy land.

    It is also not a principle of nature.

    On the other hand, Alphas swooping mad amounts of girls is.

    You can choose to not get involved with married people. Nature has nothing to do with it.


  74. All-

    Actually guys, here’s a test for you. All you who are aspiring to alphadom.

    You’re having a talk with your fiancé about the prenup your lawyer is drawing up.

    **********

    Aspiring to be Alpha: Of course there will be a paternity testing clause, just to set our minds completely at rest. It’s silly, really, but many things are.

    Lovelygoodgirl: Really? For ME? Don’t you trust me? I’m crazy about you. Now I’m upset. That’s horrible. I thought you loved me.

    AA: You know I love you gorgeous. But as a wise man once said, “trust but verify”. Really, it’s nothing. Just a pin prick or even a cotton swab. Routine.

    LGG: But it still means you don’t completely love me.

    Here’s where the having stones or not test comes in:

    AA: Actually sweety, it’s for your benefit more than mine.

    LGG: What do you mean? How?

    AA: Well first of all it will be yet another incentive, beyond all my awesomeness, to not even consider strying when seven year itch time rolls around.

    LGG: That’s stupid. I never would.

    AA: I know hottie, but there’s more. I would save you from me having to kill you, if you did make a horrible mistake. Yeah. I mean if you regretted it but kept it from me, and I found out from medical tests or something when your kid but not mine was six or something. Where you could actually get child support from me under our horrific feminist child support laws. Then I’d have to kill you. And would.

    LGG: [Stunned silence.] You’d really kill me?

    AA: Yes. If you ever did that to me I would. Otherwise I’d protect you with my life.

    ************

    OK, which of you would say that to your intended?

    If not, why not?


  75. @xsplat,
    interesting that you didn’t address the subsequent loneliness. So, you don’t deny it.


  76. and yet he won’t codemn the men who sleep with these women. If men would simply stop sleeping with committed women, we wouldn’t have these situations.

    And I condemn neither. Neither is “guilty”. I have fucked married women, and will continue to do so. I’ve been cheated on, and expect more off that. It’s neither right nor wrong.

    If I don’t want to be cheated on, then it’s up to ME, and only ME to take steps to avoid that.

    And again – knowing that women are devilish whores is an essential first step in avoiding being cheated on. It is in their nature. Say it ten times, and another ten, and again, until you can face this.

    NO woman is not a cheating devilish whore. Not one.

    It is not condemning a woman to know her nature. It is knowing them.


  77. “Mandatory Paternity Testing is inevitable.”

    —O, I’m not so sure.

    Feminists have fought mail order brides, dating teenage girls through age of consent laws and societal “shaming” for dating outside the age bracket for young girls (allowing the girls to develop their manipulative game before being exposed to experienced men and while experiencing innocent men), common sense divorce laws (men always pay), rights over children (abortion, custody), and for affirmative action for women—–think they can’t find some half-assed argument against this that will be pushed down girls throats in the Universities and to the Lesbian Hordes?

    It’s already starting, with this bullshit abut “trust being the foundation of marriage” you’re seeing here and in Hollywood movies. They;ve already got their Jessical Valenti hats on.

    Roissy, mandatory testing would be ideal, and should be required. I fear it won’t come about because of lying bitches like Hax and Sara I and anony.


  78. @Thursday,
    There has to be some real basis for that trust. Right now 30-40% of women cheat.

    but (to believe the data presented here) only 3% babies have misappropriated paternity. I don’t believe its that high, but will stay with the blog line.


  79. Obsidian asked :

    will they remain largely silent, even in the face of overwhelming evidence based on the facts of our age?

    In a word, yes.

    Women are far less constrained my morals, decency, and fairness than men. Women are far more comfortable with gaping hypocrisy.

    This is why feminism failed. It need not have failed, but this is why it did.

    That is why paternal societies are better – as when men hold the cars, they, on average, will treat most women well. When women hold the power, they are guaranteed to abuse it far more widely. Sure, the media fixate on ‘bad men and female victims’, but on balance, when men hold the power, they are more benevolent towards the opposite than when women hold the power.

    Now, a medical question :

    Exactly how is Paternity Testing done? Can’t the father simply take the kid to the hospital, find out for sure, and then plan his course of action over a period of months(hiding/donating/spending assets, quitting his job/moving to a friendly divorce jurisdiction, and then divorce?). Do they test off of blood, or just saliva? If the latter, the father doesn’t even need to take the kid to the hospital.


  80. lurker

    Sara I, you bizznich. You take the child our for the afternoon “to give you the day off, honey.” Take it to a doctor in another town that you’ve never seen before and pay cash to him for a genetic test. Get the results mailed to your work/pick up a few days later.

    That’s probably what I would do. Fuck it. I would tell her after the fact. Look honey, I love you, but I don’t trust you, so this is what I did. Sorry! Seriously, if you have suspicions, voice them, act on them, but just DO something…. or stop being suspicious.

    It’s not the end of the world if the kid IS his or is not. Is it? Or is it? No. It’s not. It might FEEL like the end of the world, if she’s not, but eventually he will realize that his wife is only human and flawed at that, just like HE is. Only he’s flawed or delusional in other ways. It’s that ego shattering thing we talked about earlier. Relationships have a way of shattering our egos, if we let them. I’m talking about having a healthy ego; not one that’s too strong or weak.


  81. Artificial wombs will be a great boon…mostly to gay men and career women who don’t want to bother with the physical hardships of pregnancies. But most men don’t want to have kids by themselves, because kids are a huge amount of work. You will have no time to “swoop” other women, because you will be at home giving your kids baths, checking on homwork, or attending parent-teacher conferences. Most men would rather avoid the day to day drudgery of it all, which is how marriage proably came about in the first place.


  82. anony:

    “the subsequent loneliness”
    –of being separated from a cheating whore? that’s why they invented prostitutes.

    Or her lonliness? She’s not lonly. So long as a woman has a man to fret about, she is completely occupied. Betas aren’t frettable.


  83. “Look honey, I love you, but I don’t trust you, so this is what I did. Sorry!”

    —Nope. the only time she’d hear about is if the test was positive. Then she gets an earful from my lawyer.

    If not, she gets to be free. For now.


  84. Doug1:
    “Think about that from examples known to you. It’s not an exaggeration, is it?”

    No, it isn’t.

    On a lighter note, roissy’s minions remind me of the space monkeys in Project Mayhem.

    Its all for the greater good.


  85. Anony, you stupid bitch – wtf are you talking about?

    I haven’t been lonely in years. You don’t have to live in a fantasy land in order to have love and companionship.

    I love imperfect people, not fairy tale Cinderellas and Prince Charmings.

    I hate hate hate with a vengeance and despise good people.

    Hate them.

    Got it?


  86. on May 12, 2009 at 2:55 pm It's my first day

    contrarian is clearly that TokyoJesusFist clown who was posting here a lot earlier this year but seems to have taken a bit of a hiatus (until now).


  87. Xsplat,
    The question isn’t who has the best genes; that is irrelevant. The issue, as Roissy has rightly noted, is the *ill gotten gain* the Woman gets from another party, deliberately kept in the dark about the whole thing.

    That is the issue. And that is why MPT can clear the air once and for all.

    No one is trying to prevent a Woman from getting the best genes possible. What we are taking issue with is the way many have gone about it.

    O


  88. cuckolded beta pays entirely for the child education

    There’s a decent chance that the child might actually love the father. Mind you, that’s the equivalent of offering $25 as replacement when somebody lost $100.

    coldly speaking, divorce hurts woman and child and won’t necessarily benefit the beta. After divorce, it is quite possible that the husband won’t have ANY sex life excluding hookers. How old is he? how much of his income will he keep after alimony? does he still have friends going out?

    Admittedly, that’s the dilemma. I’d certainly understand why a husband would want to divorce after finding out his wife is a cheater who saddled him with a kid that isn’t his, but for all intents and purposes, a mental auditing of what being an “ex-husband” is like may make some men put up with the situation. Yes, game can make him attractive to women after divorce, but it’s not the same as being a twenty-five year old man unencumbered by the repercussions of divorce.

    Fun Question: Would be cheaper and easier to have the guy learn game and use it in his broken marriage, or is it merely too late with his fate as beta provider/platonic friend cemented in the eyes of his wife?

    Why do so many men walk on eggshells with their women? Where’s the damn fear coming from?

    It’s a weird generational effect, IMHO. A lot of guys grew up watching their parents argue, and a lot of them just want to avoid that problem by simply avoiding angering their wives. Thus, the presence of no arguing and doing what your wife wants is the sign of a good marriage.


  89. lurker wrote :

    Feminists have fought mail order brides, dating teenage girls through age of consent laws and societal “shaming” for dating outside the age bracket for young girls

    Yes, but they have not been able to shut down strip clubs. This shows that feminists are powerless against the organized desire/will of men.

    The problem is, most men are still too slow-witted to realize the passive, incremental slavery they are being put under. Men even vote less then women.

    There are ‘Tea-Parties’ to protest taxes. Why not the same to protest feminism?

    THAT is the solution. And yes, the movement needs to rope in traditional-values women (Sarah Palin types), AND the Islamic-American community. THEN, action may take place.


  90. xsplat:

    Its only in society’s best interest to promote the genes that benefit the society. Alpha males, as defined by society right now, do NOT have those genes. Unfortunately, our busted-ass civilization promotes men who are stupid, useless, but sufficiently testosterone-laden to tell society to fuck itself as alpha males. Society benefits from promoting genes for intelligence, honesty, and dedication, not stupidity, duplicity, and anti-social behavior, all of which get promoted by the fucked up system right now over those more traditional values.

    What you’re missing out on is that the best genes do not determine alpha-hood in the modern society. Instead, the right combination of genes to display dominance in the current busted system determines alpha-hood. An example of that is the typical snot-nosed rebel thug. In modern society he is rewarded. In pretty much any society prior to todays, the villagers gang up on him and kill his ass.


  91. “It’s not the end of the world if the kid IS his or is not. Is it? Or is it? No. It’s not.”
    —lol. Because the womyn’s genetic material has gone on while she raped a man, all is ok.

    ” he will realize that his wife is only human and flawed at that, just like HE is.”
    —lmao rofl. When a man cheats, he’s evil. When a woman cheats, its because she’s human.

    Or a lying filthy whore trying to make him pay and care for a bastard alpha child.

    “It’s that ego shattering thing we talked about earlier.”
    —You mean you preached about while we men, who use logic, ignored you.

    “Relationships have a way of shattering our egos, if we let them.”
    —bastard children shatter bank accounts and genetic material, not to mention time wasted.

    “I’m talking about having a healthy ego; not one that’s too strong or weak.”
    —lol. Women would take being a whore as havign a “healthy ego” and completely ignore facts.


  92. but (to believe the data presented here) only 3% babies have misappropriated paternity.

    I’ve heard that in the U.K. the figure is roughly 11%.


  93. —“Women give up so much when they get married”

    (implying that men give up much less).

    This was one of those times when a single sentence from a commenter immediately disqualifies everything else they say, since they have revealed a warped worldview that is so heavily flawed that it is absurd.

    Women give up more than men by getting married….sheesh.—

    She’s a fucking idiot, so what do you expect? Women, could you know, not get married, but that’s too easy, I suppose. They are always the victim, no matter what. In reality, women seem to be metally deranged to a certain extent, but no shock there. The sooner people figure out that the female mind is a rather unsettled place full of contradictions, the better.


  94. I have a Modest Proposal:

    Since women get to murder children without anyone being able to stop them—not even the pruported father—in abortion—

    If a man finds out a child is not his, but had been told it was by the woman or assumed it was because they were married—

    Man gets the right to murder the child at any time before the child turns 18. Not even the mother can stop him.

    Fair is fair.


  95. —”It’s not the end of the world if the kid IS his or is not. Is it? Or is it? No. It’s not. It might FEEL like the end of the world, if she’s not, but eventually he will realize that his wife is only human and flawed at that, just like HE is. Only he’s flawed or delusional in other ways. It’s that ego shattering thing we talked about earlier. Relationships have a way of shattering our egos, if we let them. I’m talking about having a healthy ego; not one that’s too strong or weak.”—

    Heard this one before…We all make mistakes, honey, that’s just the way things are…We’re both to blame….We’re only human, it isn’t the end of the world….

    That’s the sound of fear that the gravy train is coming off the tracks….More effort into CYA!


  96. “Women give up more than men by getting married.”

    –She’s right

    They give up having sex with their husband.

    They give up taking care of their disgusting bloated bodies.

    They give up supporting themselves.

    They give up housework (feminism!).

    They give up not cheating on a man.

    They give up letting the man make any decisions.

    They give up not ripping a man’s soul to shreds.

    Why, women give up everything!


  97. women are simply enjoying and prospering from the societal Double Standard set up for them by the diligent work of their fugly predecessors and emasculated Alan Alda Betas

    ‘Baldas’ – i tells ya


  98. Micheal, I’m not sure if women on the whole are not the best judges of the best source of parentage. One would imagine that they would be genetically, not socially, programmed to be adept at this.

    Your criteria may not be evolutions criteria.

    I get your point, but suspect that women also get it, and are highly evolved to make sex-mate choices.


  99. Sara–

    That’s probably what I would do. Fuck it. I would tell her after the fact. Look honey, I love you, but I don’t trust you, so this is what I did. Sorry! Seriously, if you have suspicions, voice them, act on them, but just DO something…. or stop being suspicious.

    Yes. Exactly. What I’d do if I didn’t already have an agreement (which I would) and hadn’t gotten her to agree (which would be a huge red flag).

    It’s not the end of the world if the kid IS his or is not. Is it? Or is it? No. It’s not.

    It wouldn’t be the end of the world to me, no. My self esteem would survive just fine. The marriage would not. I will not pay child support for a child that isn’t mine, period, end of story. That’s me.

    BTW, I wouldn’t necessarily leave a wife for her cheating on me to a limited degree, if she stopped completely and truly regretted it, and was desperate to preserve and regain the relationship. (But don’t tell her that.) She’d have to be willing to go through the ringer for quite awhile though, the way virtually all American women put their husbands through it if they cheat, and she doesn’t simply tear the marriage up irrevocably right there (as our culture now greatly pressures wives to do, starting with her girlfriends).

    Now is the world better for having some men that can remain in a cuckolded relationship and raise another man’s child that they were hoodwinked about for an extended period? Maybe so. I won’t be him though. No way no how.


  100. Tood:

    “This shows that feminists are powerless against the organized desire/will of men.”
    —Well, for one thing, those enterprises are run by criminal enterprises/shady guys—alphas who if a woman steps up and bitches at them, they smack them down. Prostitution falls into the same category.

    So long as money can be made on the edge of legality, an alpha will make it, fuck the woman.

    To wrap their pretty little heads around it, women try to pretend being s tripper/hooker is somehow a “choice” and “empowering” and not the result of being molested as a child or growing up without a Dad.


  101. Maurice

    Advice columnists will *always* be biased toward the female point of view. Duh.

    Ya, and future Oprah Winfreys will be female. Duh. Advice colums are mostly read by women. It’s the Oprah venue of print.


  102. David Alexander asked :

    Would be cheaper and easier to have the guy learn game and use it in his broken marriage,

    Learning Game isn’t THAT easy, and can’t really be done in an emergency time-pressure situation.

    Also, learning Game requires a lot of approaches to other women, to practice on (even for LTR Game). This is hard to do in a marriage.

    The only solution is to FIRST get Game, practice on a lot of women, use Game to persuade a suitable women (in both looks and income) into a pre-nup, then use LTR Game post-marriage.

    Learning Game when you are already drifting into divorce is just not possible.


  103. doug1, man up. Once a woman cheats, she will do it again.

    A man sows his wild oats but tires–he will not always cheat.

    A woman will continually be a whore long after she gets any pleasure from it, merely because she enjoys fucking another man over.


  104. piece of shit:
    I’ll add my comment from another column:

    braced for illumination, i am.

    which has more destructive long-term consequences?
    -the state to undermine trust in it’s women, or
    -a tiny percentage of men to be cuckholded?

    irrelevant. since i am a believer in individual rights and freedom from slavery, i fall squarely on the side of the angels — that is, the individuals who might suffer the unkindest cut of wifely betrayal.
    that the state may have an interest in keeping cuckolds in the dark about their bastard children and their lifelong slavery to the state via marriage contract does not surprise me in the least.

    Trust is a fundamental nurturing value to society.

    “trust but verify”

    Everyone wants to be trusted.

    especially liars.

    Presumption of guilt cuts deep.

    only if you’re guilty.

    Imagine how you’d feel toward your state if you were presumed guilty, and had to prove your innocence.

    bad analogy. the wife is not required to prove anything. the DNA testing does that for her.

    anony you are a vile piece of shit. a cunt. you have just laid your wretched soul out in all its putrid rot. in so doing, you have earned my illimitable contempt. from this point onward, i will shit down your virtual throat until you are choking on my words in your worst nightmares.

    nighty night, bitch.

    ps i find it funny how all these women are suddenly coming out of the woodwork with faux concern about the loneliness that betas might suffer if they leave a cheating wife for the open market.
    where was that concern when it was needed most?


  105. Obsidian

    The question isn’t who has the best genes; that is irrelevant.

    There you go thinking in terms of right and wrong again. As if what we really need to do, first and foremost, is to assign blame.

    Blame has nothing to do with it. Right and wrong is useless commentary.

    The only thing that matters is pragmatism. What to do.

    Men and women have different agendas. Neither is right, nor wrong. Right and wrong is a linguistic human social concept. The man has an agenda. He can take steps to promote his agenda. Blame and shame can work for him, but on the whole, there is no blame and shame.


  106. I won’t be him though. No way no how.

    Indirectly, as taxpayers, we all are, unfortunately. Some women pay taxes too, but income tax is disproportionally paid by men.


  107. —ps i find it funny how all these women are suddenly coming out of the woodwork with faux concern about the loneliness that betas might suffer if they leave a cheating wife for the open market.
    where was that concern when it was needed most?—

    Like I said, the Gravy Train won’t pull into that station anymore. Parasites need a host…


  108. xsplat–

    I’ve heard that in the U.K. the figure is roughly 11%.

    There’s lots of misinforation floating around about this. A lot of that stems from lousy population samples.

    Specifically, if one simply surveys paternity testing labs, one is going to get truly alarming but very skewed results. That’s because the overwhelming majority of paternity tests are done in circumstances where the mother and/or purported father are seriously in doubt as to the true paternity. In those cases about 30% of the time the initially named father is not the bio dad.

    In cases of high paternity confidence in the UK and US the numbers for non paternity (cuckolding) have come in around the 3-4% range.

    Some have calculated that the BLENDED percentage might be around 10% — i.e. that could be the percentage of all men claimed by mothers to be the fathers, who are not. (I have no idea how good this estimation is or isn’t.)

    This all comes from GNXP write ups and links from several years ago.


  109. with faux concern about the loneliness that betas might suffer if they leave a cheating wife for the open market.
    where was that concern when it was needed most?

    Bingo.

    I think these women are worried that the divorced Beta might learn Game. Remember that the best students of Game are often those who hit excruciating, rock bottom misery in the past.

    I will go so far as to say that SWPL American women are very un-American. They are anti-freedom, pro-slavery, and anti-individual responsibility.


  110. Lurker,
    Recall the Gipper’s all time best quote: Trust, but Verify.

    Its really that simple, and you can tell if a Woman is really yours just by how she responds to such a suggestion of paternity testing. Both of mine have no problem with it whatsoever, in fact the Nurse offered it just so the record was clear. I didn’t even have to ask her.

    I tell guys all the time, you gotta get a Ride or Die chick. One who’s down with you till the end. And they are out there. Just gotta know what to look for, etc.

    O


  111. Tood–

    Indirectly, as taxpayers, we all are, unfortunately.

    I agree. I’m very much in favor of mandatory and automatic paternity testing. If a man then decides to live with and help bring up and support a kid that isn’t his, that’s his decision.

    I’m against welfare for any extended period also.

    Think of how much would change if the default marriage contract enforced by the state was that upon dissolution of marriage no child support would be mandated by the state and each spouse would divide the marital assets in proportion to their earnings.

    Unfair to mothers many will scream. Horrible for children!!!

    Actually, it would lead to far fewer divorces, 70% of which are initiated by women, and nearly all of them in marriages with infants or young children. It would also lead many women to be more careful about who they marry.

    Female infidelity and bearing of other men’s children in marriage would go WAY down. Infidelity used to be way lower in fact.

    Under current law and culture, look for cuckolded babies to go way up soon. The percentages I cited are basically for boomers and to some extent gen x, not gen Y.


  112. Artificial wombs will be a great boon

    I hate all this talk about fictitious ‘artificial wombs’.

    Not. Gonna. Happen in the next 25 years.

    It pretty cheap to get a surrogate mother in India or somewhere.

    In terms of anti-feminist technology, the soonest/most likely will be 3-D/VR/Holographic porn with tactile interfaces. A distant second would come sexbots. ‘Artificial wombs’ would be far harder and later.


  113. “Micheal, I’m not sure if women on the whole are not the best judges of the best source of parentage. One would imagine that they would be genetically, not socially, programmed to be adept at this.

    Your criteria may not be evolutions criteria.

    I get your point, but suspect that women also get it, and are highly evolved to make sex-mate choices.”

    You give women a lot more credit than they deserve. Women respond to dominance, pure and simple. In nature, and in MOST societies, that works just fine; the best genes tend to rise to the top, and when an asshole pretends to have top genes and be dominant even though he provides nothing to the society, he gets his ass beat like a bitch. Women who get fooled by “fakers” get ostracized, and they and their bastard children are cast out from the society.

    None of that works any more in our modern feminist, equality-obsessed society. Would even half of the bullshit that black men get away with nowadays be allowed in traditional societies? They’d get shot or lynched or something else. Women who were stupid enough to have children with those men would not find another man, they’d be ostracized. Same for a number of other behaviors: I remember hearing that Britain has the highest crime rate in its history right now, because being a thug is now acceptable there. 18th century Britain, being a thug got you dead. It cuts across all races: being a stupid douchebag is now acceptable because of the restrictions against punishing stupid douchebags. And being a dumb woman who gets a bastard child with a stupid douchebag, while not exactly condoned, does not have the enormous repercussions it had 300 years ago.

    When we took the law and justice away from the people and started punishing people for ‘racism’, ‘sexism’, and any form of protecting their interests through force, we gave the scum of society free reign to do as they wish. Then we proceeded to hurt the men who have something to lose by having children. The men who have the least to lose by fathering bastard children are the men who are too stupid to actually make anything of themselves.

    There are plenty of dominant, valuable males in the world who benefit society very much. The world should be filled with tiny Bill Gates and Richard Bransons, but I would guess that there are thousands of worthless thugs who each have more children than almost any valuable man in the world. How many children does Roissy have? The system is designed right now to punish valuable men for having children.


  114. Roissy, excellent.

    Obsidian, that is true, I will always do it, but I don’t think we’ll get it into law.


  115. Maurice: Advice columnists will *always* be biased toward the female point of view. Duh.

    Xsplat: Ya, and future Oprah Winfreys will be female. Duh. Advice colums are mostly read by women. It’s the Oprah venue of print.

    Yes, but we should return to a culture where woman are ashamed to say such things to each other, or even a little afraid, if men should be listening in.


  116. What kind of a fucking idiot gets married in twenty-first century America?

    Sheep get sheared.


  117. Tood

    I will go so far as to say that SWPL American women are very un-American. They are anti-freedom, pro-slavery, and anti-individual responsibility.

    Cosider it as women following a sex biased agenda. Consider it to have always been and to forever remain, as long as we have similar genes as to today.

    All this moral talk is boring. There is no universal morality. There is only agendas.


  118. I have noticed that women don’t really mind being exposed as parasites, hypocrites, etc. At least in this day and age.

    Plea to Islamic Leaders : Faster, please.


  119. on May 12, 2009 at 3:28 pm Howard Roark

    I have a friend whose “father” has a fat little face and black hair, and whose mother is a skinny Irish whelp with scraggly reddish hair. They are divorced. My friend, on the other hand, has piercing blue eyes, a strong jaw and dirty blond hair – one of the best-looking guys I know. I personally believe, with no other evidence, that his father was horribly cuckolded. And maybe the father even knows it, but they never told my friend. Further, the mother is now re-married to a MUCH-older doctor and lives in a palace, works sporadically. Cannot figure out how she has pulled it off all these years. I have a powerful urge to interrogate this woman, but how can I? She has a strange, furtive demeanor, too. Never looks at you when you speak to her. I truly believe she has been living with this filthy little secret for years, and that it weighs on her soul.


  120. Yeah, my friend (who is Muslim) told me I’d probably be best off with a Muslim girl, since they’re the only ones who actually keep their morality—even if it is on pain of death. Sadly, the Catholic ones are Catholic in name only.

    Bhetti, my love, are you listening?


  121. Doug

    Yes, but we should return to a culture where woman are ashamed to say such things to each other, or even a little afraid, if men should be listening in.

    I respectully disagree on this point, Doug. Although I understand and commend the valid view. I think men have powers other than blame and shame and morality to use to assure appropriate behaviour from mates.

    Blame and shame and social conditioning are, in my malnourished view, not nearly as strong forces as people assume. Teens fuck and will always fuck, and no social conditioning has ever stopped them from fucking.

    Women will always gossip with other women – not with men. They have their own social powers, indipendent of men. Always have, always will. Makes no never mind. A strong man can own his woman.


  122. Lurker

    Yeah, my friend (who is Muslim) told me I’d probably be best off with a Muslim girl

    That’s a load. My current GF is Muslim. And my other current one is also. Girls are girls are girls are girls are girls.


  123. xsplat, perhaps, but growing up in a household can keep a girl straight or loose depending. Catholic girls once weren’t so easy, due to heavy church indoctrination and parental involvement. Currently, Muslim girls are the only ones who have that kind of force upon them


  124. on May 12, 2009 at 3:37 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    I think it’s more like 10 percent of women who lie about paternity. I wish I could find that stat. I remember seeing it in an article years ago. I would double check the 4 percent figure.


  125. Micheal, I just don’t see this “system” that you are talking about, nor do I see wide differences among traditional, versus modern cultures.

    I’m living in Indonesia, which is about as traditional as you’ll ever find. Women here are extremely materialistic, and highly favor alphas. There is plenty of cheating going on. Plenty.

    I doubt the cultures you dream of have ever or will ever exist.


  126. It’s probably 30% of women cheat, but only 5-10% bear a cuckolded child; the others either don’t get pregnant or luckily sleep with their husband and get pregnant by him.


  127. Lurker, the say that overly restrictive parenting makes for overly unrestrictive behaviour in teens.

    There is not and has never been a system that restricts sexual behavior. Sexual behavior can not and has never been restricted.

    The best you can do is to physically keep the women under constant watch. Anything less is hopefull. Nothing but hopefull.

    I don’t care how religious a girl is – I can fuck her.


  128. There is plenty of cheating going on. Plenty.

    I agree. In India, there was very little cheating, until the proliferation of :

    1) Cellphones
    2) Internet
    3) Cable TV with soap operas that glorify cheating.

    1) makes it 10 times easier to sneak around relative to when a household shared a single landline. 2) makes it easier to meet people. 3) changes the value system.

    Divorce LAWS in India have not changed yet (there is not asset division or alimony), so divorce rates are low (but rising).

    But there are other screwed up laws. For example, an accusation (even if false) of dowry extortion can get the husband AND his parents tossed into jail, until the court date.


  129. @Roissy,
    although I enjoy your hypertensive histrionics, I fear it interferes with your comprehension.
    -my concern is for the loneliness of men who can not trust (ie. Roissy’s campfire here), not for betas.
    -I share your contempt of cheating and cuckholding women
    -MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence; a toxic presumption. DNA testing may be easy, but mandating it would destroy trust of women by the state.
    -”trust but verify” really means “no trust” in the context of an intimate long-term commitment.
    -I, and I suspect most women, would support a cuckholded beta to demand recompense for misappropriated paternity.


  130. MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence

    In many states AIDS tests are mandatory or “highly encouraged” for pregnant women. Does this presume crack-whoredom for every soccer mom with a belly who reports for prenatal care?


  131. on May 12, 2009 at 3:48 pm johnnymarks

    I forgot one thing in my post about “punishing a cuckolding wife” above.

    The husband has a DUTY to kill the offspring that is not his as part of the punishment to his cheating whore of a wife. (Preferably, committing this action right in front of her.)


  132. Their marriage would remain strong, or at least viable, as they made arrangements with the hospital to find their true baby and swap kids with the other victimized family who mistakenly got their kid.
    Uh this could present a problem. IIRC, there was a case a few years ago where this very thing happened to a family and one family didn’t want to switch babies. That’s the thing about parents bonding to children. There was also another family who had a child, mother blond, dad haired, their son who had the dark coloring of an Italian or Arab looked less like his parents as he became older. The husband brook up with the wife because she thought she stepped out on him. Come to find out the hospital accidentally gave them a biracial blk baby.

    A man getting cuckolded is the moral equivalent of a woman getting secretly implanted with another woman’s fertilized egg, giving birth to it, and raising it for eighteen years
    I’ve never discussed this with another woman before but something tells me that this won’t bother a woman as much as it would bother a man.

    proof of his paternity might even motivate him to go down on his wife

    WHAT????

    :rolleyes:

    That is a husbandly duty, he should need to motivation to do it.
    I guarantee every woman reading this Post article nodded their heads in agreement with the author,
    I beg to differ.


  133. Obsidian–

    Mandatory Paternity Testing is inevitable.

    I don’t think it’s inevitable either.

    Instead we’re gonna have to fight for it.

    In the mean time, we need to expect / demand it from any woman we want to have kids with (not to mention if she pulls an ooops).


  134. on May 12, 2009 at 3:51 pm Dave from Hawaii

    ”trust but verify” really means “no trust” in the context of an intimate long-term commitment.

    No, it means the husband is simply testing whether the trust is well deserved or not. A negative result on a secretly conducted paternity test would only increase a husband’s trust for his wife. A positive result will let him know that the trust was misplaced and she didn’t deserve it in the first place.

    There’s a difference between trust and naivete.


  135. It could very well be that the husband has seen a few episodes of Maury and has become paranoid. After seeing that show, I find myself looking at children to note any resemblance with its’ parents.


  136. anony, lying and cheating like a whore:

    “MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence; a toxic presumption.”
    –when womena re naturally whores, its no different than the blood test already required before marriage in most states.

    “DNA testing may be easy, but mandating it would destroy trust of women by the state.”
    —the state already does not trust straight white males to hire competant women and minorities; it assumes racism.

    the state does not trust men with children or not supporting their wife.

    women who cheat are liars.

    welcome to the club, bitch.

    “I, and I suspect most women, would support a cuckholded beta to demand recompense for misappropriated paternity.”

    –pretty lies. Betas may fall for it, not Roissy.

    And who compensates the man for the time lost? This method saves time and money.

    Any woman who rejects this, gentleman, is a woman who is a whore. Liek anony.


  137. johnny makrs, scroll up and see my post on my “Modest Proposal.”

    Or Control F the phrase.


  138. Anony,
    The procedure is quick, painless and most of all accurate. What’s the problem? Moreover, what about medical concerns? If the child isn’t his, then we have to locate the real father for the sake of the child’s medical wellbeing. To think that Women don’t even consider this, is disgusting to me quite frankly.

    O


  139. on May 12, 2009 at 3:56 pm johnnymarks

    I agree with Lurker’s Modest Proposal, just calling it a duty rather than an option.


  140. Tood and Anonymous,

    Artifical wombs could be here “WITHIN A DECADE”,
    http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2005-08/artificial-wombs
    All they really are is long-term incubators like we have now. They will be perfected in Japan first (Japanese are ahead in the research), and then sold here. Any laws passed against them here will just ensure men go overseas to have it done.

    It wont be men who will be eager for them to become a reality either. It will be women. Nine months, getting fat, mood swings, stretch marks, cellulite, pain of childbirth., paternity leave……………………….all GONE.

    Anonymous……………..ever heard of maids? Grandmothers? Aunts? Uncles? Plenty of people to help with babies until school starts. Men would be MUCH better off not BEHOLDEN to child support.
    Men could have their two kids, and enjoy a delicatessan of new pussy instead of being stuck married to the same fucking hag who holds a legal lever on them. They’d be assured the kids were theirs and nobody else’s, and could never be taken away by some fuck-assed backdoor-motherfucking court.

    Mandatory Paternity testing, artificial wombs………………..the power structure out there will indeed right itself, and science will indeed lead the way.

    One of you mentioned “sexbots”. I cant concieve of the pleasure of seducing a damned robot myself, but assume that some men could. Artificial wombs (really just long-term incubators like we have now, but better), will give men that option also.


  141. Here is an update on Japanese robotics. They have a robotics conference going on right now.

    While the robots described here are not sexbots, always remember that an advancement in any area of robotics can still apply to other areas (or at least speed things up elsewhere). Check out the videos under the ‘multimedia’ heading.


  142. Those Japanese researchers……gotta love ‘em.

    Extreme Beta/Omega humiliation leads to the most determined scientific research.


  143. chic noir–

    someone else: I guarantee every woman reading this Post article nodded their heads in agreement with the author,

    chic: I beg to differ.

    So do you agree with me chic, as several men on here have said they do and none have said they don’t, that if:

    He gets the paternity test done, and the six year old daughter isn’t his; and

    He divorces her and wants to stop supporting the child he was hoodwinked into believing was his, and never undertood to support on the basis that she wasn’t his; and

    the wife nonetheless goes after him for full child support = alimony; THAT

    he then has the moral right to kill her. Stone cold murder her, in that case.

    I would be more than able to kill her under such circumstances, I assure you. Just totally could.

    What say you chic?


  144. “-MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence; a toxic presumption. DNA testing may be easy, but mandating it would destroy trust of women by the state.”

    Negative, it would only cement the bond between 2 committed people even more. And destroy the trust of women by the state? Why does the gov’t always have to be involved? Oh yeah:

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/29035.html

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/28570.html

    Maybe protect some innocent men, but hey, that’s just a nothing issue.


  145. Dave from Hawaii,

    You hit the nail on the head about trust. Exactly.


  146. A bit more, Doug. I do believe that blame and shame are a last resort and usually unnecesary tactics, but agree that they are usefull. I prefer to use seduction and humor over fear. I constantly tease my girlfriends about cheating. Whenever they go out the door I’ll say something like “Don’t fuck anybody. Blow jobs are ok, but no fucking”. I love to roleplay cheating scenarios. Keep the fact that I know and love women – REAL women, not Cinderellas – out in plain sight. And when I said a strong man can own a woman, I meant that he can own her, for a while. How long that while is varies – but unless kids are involved, does how long really matter?

    If kids are involved, you still own her for as long as you own her, and not a day more. And vice versa. So I agree that mate selection and all possible weapons of sugar and vinegar, stick and carrot, are needed. Shame is but one small and weak weapon in the arsenal.


  147. @pa,
    MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence

    In many states AIDS tests are mandatory or “highly encouraged” for pregnant women. Does this presume crack-whoredom for every soccer mom with a belly who reports for prenatal care?

    Wrong. The presumption behind HIV testing is that – HIV is not diagnosable clinically until end stages, -that HIV is placental transmissible, and -anti retrovirals are effective to reduce transmission. There is no “guilt” presumed in infectious diseases.

    And I agree with chic here,
    A man getting cuckolded is the moral equivalent of a woman getting secretly implanted with another woman’s fertilized egg, giving birth to it, and raising it for eighteen years
    I’ve never discussed this with another woman before but something tells me that this won’t bother a woman as much as it would bother a man.

    I suspect most women would raise and nurture the implanted embryo like her own.


  148. The most basic reason women don’t want MPT’s?

    It takes a woman’s most potent weapon in manipulating and controlling men:

    her ability to lie.


  149. “If a man suspects his wife has cuckolded him, the odds of his child not being his rise to 30%. ”

    I can still see no link to pubmed or anything that proves this. unpublished study? from where?


  150. anony, please. it is not guilty, it is establishing a legal fact. You’re just worried about burden shifting—that a skanky female might not get her pay from the her bitch boy beta.

    “I suspect most women would raise and nurture the implanted embryo like her own.”
    —lmao rofl. Yes, the kidn caring women of today’s world who slaughter their children at the drop of a hat?

    lol. yeah, right.


  151. “MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence”

    And marriage presumes that the kid is the fathers. If you find out that the whorewife spit out a bastard and you are not within about a year of birth to contest paternity, guess what? You have to keep paying up, for 18 years, on threat of imprisonment.

    Women want money. There is no way in hell that they will give up the possibility of soaking any man for their own benefit. Justice is a male virtue.

    They may as well simplify the law to state:

    Any man who the state says is the father, is the father. Upon birth, said man shall be sentenced to 18 years in prison in a jury-less trial. The state will make up an arbitrary amount of money to be paid by said man to the woman who says he is the father of her child. This amount can be changed at any time, for any reason, up to any amount. Should the said man make his arbitrary payments on schedule, for that month he shall be allowed on furlough.


  152. comparing cuckolding to the male version of rape is a bad characterization. its obviously more akin to thievery or robbery, and really, unless the State starts making cuckolded fathers pay for another man’s child (read, his wife’s child, and this wouldn’t be too far-fetched) its really not thievery or robbery at all just disingenuity.


  153. —-The procedure is quick, painless and most of all accurate. What’s the problem? Moreover, what about medical concerns? If the child isn’t his, then we have to locate the real father for the sake of the child’s medical wellbeing.—

    That’s exactly the problem with it, now isn’t it? The real issue is that it is too easy to find out the truth. Goodbye carefully constructed feminist good times being paid for by men’s money.


  154. @lurker,

    when women are naturally whores, its no different than the blood test already required before marriage in most states.

    You are adorable, lurker, but you are wanting to compare a genetic inheritance with an infectious disease. To my understanding, the “blood test” is for syphilis . an outdated public health strategy.


  155. on May 12, 2009 at 4:09 pm Dave from Hawaii

    This post is one of Roissy’s best to date…and it’s quite instructive to see just how defensive the sisterhood gets when they close ranks to justify, excuse and/or rationalize cuckoldry.

    Look at anony – while expressing a half-hearted condemnation for cuckoldry (it really is male rape), she is far more concerned with “trust” in a “marriage” that would be “broken” by a paternity test.

    Somehow, I doubt a man that suspects cuckoldry is just being a paranoid making up fantasies in his own mind. Even an extreme beta will have to have a confluence of events and facts in front of him that he cannot dismiss no matter how badly he wants to, for him to connect the dots in his mind that add up to his overall suspicion.

    If you feel like your trust was misplaced, what’s wrong with secretly confirming whether or not that trust was misplaced?

    Women do that sort of shit all the time…like having their friends hit on their men just to see if their man takes the bait.


  156. All

    One of the great eternal lies, that’s passed off as women’s wisdom:

    “Women KNOW who the father is; and you should of course (hear must) believe her”.


  157. @obsidian,
    What’s the problem?

    The problem is the effect it has on the overwhelming majority of women who respect and trust their state. The message is, “we don’t trust your actions.” ” you must prove yourself to the state and to your husband.”


  158. I agree with Chuck,
    its obviously more akin to thievery or robbery


  159. xsplat–

    I prefer to use seduction and humor over fear.

    Of course. By a country mile and then some.

    I do believe that blame and shame are a last resort and usually unnecesary tactics, but agree that they are usefull. *** So I agree that mate selection and all possible weapons of sugar and vinegar, stick and carrot, are needed. Shame is but one small and weak weapon in the arsenal.

    I wasn’t even thinking of shame or fear meted out individually by a man. I was talking about culturally induced shame and fear. Those are POWERFUL social forces.

    They’re weak individual ones usually. Well fear may not be, but that’s a terrible way to maintain a relationship. Don’t even know anything ’bout that.


  160. —The problem is the effect it has on the overwhelming majority of women who respect and trust their state. The message is, “we don’t trust your actions.” ” you must prove yourself to the state and to your husband.”—

    Women are just going to have to accept that and get over their hurt feelings. I had always thought the that modern grrl was supposed to be tougher than that, with all the shit that gets done to guys who get cheated on and forced to pay for kids that aren’t theirs. But a simple, easy test? No, too much to ask. Not a surprising response though.


  161. Anony, you are a stupid selfish little cunt. Your feelings are irrelevant. Suck it up.


  162. “people just assume that the cuckolded husband will go from once-a-month-sex to G-manifesto like massive swooping of fly girls.”

    Are you shitting me? Who fucking cares! Supporting bastard offspring is a fake worse than death. Even if he has one arm and needs a face transplant, he can always get hookers. Hookers are way cheaper than supporting some mongoloid’s kid in return for a biennial handjob.

    Nice work, Roissy. I’ll be writing this hatchet faced witch a love letter.


  163. on May 12, 2009 at 4:20 pm Dave from Hawaii

    comparing cuckolding to the male version of rape is a bad characterization.

    No, it’s not.

    Why is the rape of a female considered such a horrible crime in the first place?

    Before birth control and legalized abortion, rape was particularly horrifying way of forcing a woman to have a baby from a genetic “donor” she did not want.

    A woman, forced to have a child from the DNA not of her own choosing.

    That is what the crime of rape was really all about.

    So a woman doing the same thing to a man, forcing him to raise a child not of HIS choosing, is certainly a form of rape.


  164. My brothers, do not be troubled. The End is near. Technology is making it harder to cheat the system, the truth will come out, nothing can stop it. In the meantime, more and more Men wll simply opt out, as they’re doing right now. Women have fought for the right to fend for themselves, they can support the kids they’ve made via their private decisions, either w/or w/o the aid of the true fathers. What matters here is the facts. MPT will get those facts.

    O


  165. Here is a link to some of the stats: http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Globe_and_Mail_Moms_Little_secret_14DEC02.aspx

    It is a newspaper, so you might have to dig a little bit deeper to find the original sources of the info.

    Most scientists studying this field say 5-15% of babies are cuckolded.

    In one English classroom 30% of children had different fathers than the were supposed to.

    The American Association of Blood Banks is the source for the quote that 30% of fathers who suspect their children aren’t actually theirs are correct.

    I hope this helps.

    Ben


  166. Doug

    culturally induced shame and fear. Those are POWERFUL social forces.

    I’ve lived in a number of societies. I’ve yet to witness one in which culturally induced shame and fear had much social influence at all.

    People merely get sneakier.


  167. dave from Hawaii Why is the rape of a female considered such a horrible crime in the first place?
    you must be kidding right???

    *puts hand up to god*

    I refuse I refuse


  168. Chuck–

    unless the State starts making cuckolded fathers pay for another man’s child (read, his wife’s child, and this wouldn’t be too far-fetched) its really not thievery or robbery at all just disingenuity.

    You are truly in a bubble. You have a LOT of learning to do lad.

    The state does JUST THAT right now. In some states if the divorcing husband discovers non paternity and divorces within a short time, one and two years have been used by courts in different states, then he can escape paternity. If it’s longer even though through no fault of his own, then he’s on the hook. In many states this hasn’t been judicially determined, but that’s far from meaning a husband such as the one Roissy wrote up would be likely to prevail. Given the other states precedents (and those in Australian and the UK), he probably wouldn’t. It’s all about the best interests of the child (read and mother as an indisoluable unit), with the man coming dead last — and hardly considered.

    Yuup, it’s that bad right now. It really is. Google around and verify. Please. Then report back to us.


  169. on May 12, 2009 at 4:25 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Not quite, xsplat. Shame and fear don’t stop morally/socially destructive behavior…and yes, people do get sneakier…but when you have a social stigma attached to behavior, you will get a lot less instances of it occurring in the first place.

    Like the rise in single mother households.

    Under the cultural stigma of prior to the 60′s “sexual revolution,” the single mother household was far less prevalent than what we have today when the stigma and shame is all but gone.


  170. Dave:

    “rape was particularly horrifying way of forcing a woman to have a baby from a genetic “donor” she did not want.”

    it was also a particularly horrifying way of forcing an unwanted penis into her vagina against her will…on a much more simple level, it violated her “natural rights” against physical harm and unwanted contact.

    also, if we want to accept your definition of male rape as being forced to raise a child; there is no “force” per se. she lied and manipulated, both horrible in their own right, but there is no “force”. a cuckolded man who raises a child does so on his own accord, whether knowledgable about the paternity of his child or not.

    you guys can’t just make up a whole new definition of rape.


  171. anony, being anony:

    “but you are wanting to compare a genetic inheritance with an infectious disease.”
    —Actually, its quite an apt comparison. Your whorish little offspring that you foister upon some poor beta for sustenance are the festering germs of society, parasites that feed off of the world just as their mother does, without contributing anything.

    “To my understanding, the “blood test” is for syphilis.”
    —which you probably have

    “an outdated public health strategy.”
    —like assuming the married man is the father.

    It was put best above: if you want the ring, and get guaranteed payments for the kid, then man up and submit to the testing. Tit for tat. But women don’t understand that.


  172. chic noir:

    dave from Hawaii: Why is the rape of a female considered such a horrible crime in the first place?

    chic: you must be kidding right???

    When no child results, and when compared to a situation where a wife deceives a husband into believing a child is his when it’s not, and then sues him for child support (which in NY will extend to her college education) when he divorces her,

    I completely agree with Dave. In fact I think mere rape (with no resulting child) is NOTHING in comparison to that.


  173. on May 12, 2009 at 4:28 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Chic, I’m speaking of the historical context of rape.

    Aside from that, you women have been conditioned by society to consider rape a fate worse than death. Sorry dear, but there are worse things one can endure than simply rape.

    Just as you females recoil in visceral horror at the thought of a man you do not desire violating you, so too do men recoil in visceral horror at the thought of another man impregnating the woman he THOUGHT he was starting his own family with.

    Cuckoldry IS rape…not in they physical sense, but in the mental sense, it most certainly is.


  174. “biannual handjobs”

    you had me rofl at that, and I was about to say this was a legendary post, but it just kept getting better and better.

    Write the book already, or the screenplay for “alpha in the city”
    roflmao


  175. on May 12, 2009 at 4:29 pm Stupid Links Each Time

    Chic noir
    dave from Hawaii Why is the rape of a female considered such a horrible crime in the first place?
    you must be kidding right???

    *puts hand up to god*

    I refuse I refuse

    Go be offended somewhere else, please.


  176. I would not kill her or the innocent child, but I would :

    1) Get the test done. Twice, to make sure.
    2) Start an asset relocation/donation/spending spree plan
    3) Move to a place where divorce is more favorable (even if this means quitting my job). Try to make an excuse about how I have a job there, so that she is not suspicious (although this is the risky part of my plan, which is why part 1) is a buffer).
    4) File for divorce there.
    5) Eventually inform the child what happened and give him/her a copy of the report (if he is old enough).


  177. oh and a serious point, if DNA test proves the cuckoldry… where/when is the law ascribing criminal charges and damages for the biznitch for:
    willful fraud,
    intentional mental anguish, and
    theft (garnish those wages for them expenses honey)

    Think the day will ever come when female rape gets persecuted too?


  178. Dave

    Under the cultural stigma of prior to the 60’s “sexual revolution,” the single mother household was far less prevalent than what we have today when the stigma and shame is all but gone.

    Correlation or causation? Birth control is the cause, not social mores. Social mores changed BECAUSE of birth control. Social mores didn’t affect the behaviour. Social mores are mere stories people tell themselves to justify whatever it is that they are currently doing.


  179. Question :

    If you do the DNA test and find that the child was not yours, and then file for divorce…

    …what is to prevent the woman from bribing a doctor to give her a fake test, so that she can get child support from the man?

    Sure, you have your report, and can sue the doctor, but still…..


  180. Chuck, the emotional and financial damage inflicted on a man from being cuckholded is equal to rape. Try for equality is playing the feminine game; there is no equality between the sexes.

    As any feminazi will tell you, “rape is about power.” So is cuckholding; it is power over a man’s livlihood.

    Or, put it another way: a woman’s value, first and foremost, is her sexuality: she’s attractive but not slutty, not had too many partners. When she lost that, it was a huge losss, thus why rape was such a bad crime; it deprived her of ehr natural advantages. In ancient Rome, there was no crime for raping a prostitute, precisely because such women had nothing to lose by it.

    For a man, his financial success has long been a big ticket to status and women. When he voluntarily gives up women in marriage, and then loses not only that one woman but also his money for both her and another man’s seed—-that is societal rape.


  181. @too bad,
    Women are just going to have to accept that and get over their hurt feelings. I had always thought the that modern grrl was supposed to be tougher than that, with all the shit that gets done to guys who get cheated on and forced to pay for kids that aren’t theirs. But a simple, easy test? No, too much to ask. Not a surprising response though.

    OKay, you appealed to a “tough girl” challenge. I don’t know where the “cuckold pays for the bastard child for ever” started. This is beyond the pale injustice. I suspect that most women would support legislation to stop that.
    Agree that a cheek swab seems simple enough technically, but the message from the state to women is “you are not to be trusted.” and then women should respect their state?


  182. Chuck = SWPL Beta.

    Anyway, this is someone who thinks Mao and Stalin were not left-wing, so judge his words accordingly.


  183. @doug- the paternity test should take place at time of birth before the father is allowed to sign the birth certificate.
    Forgive me for being a little testy about this but I’ve been saying this once a week for almost a year now. Getting the DNA test done early prevents any messy bonding between a man and a child that’s not his. If the man chooses to stay, then it’s his decision but he should be given the facts and the truth.

    fun fact: I also think a women should have their fiancés take lie detector tests before they marry. It would save alot of money for both parties. Females won’t hitch themselves to trash for the long-term.

    Do know that if someone cheats on you and you forgive with ease, he/she will probably do it again. The quicker you make up, the sooner he/she will be face down in new poon/pean.

    PS. Some of those couples we see on Maury are in fact not couples. They are just two poor people who want a trip to NYC in a five star hotel. Their dignity, morals and ethics, if they have any, take a back seat for the opportunity to leave their project, trailer park, or shack for a few minutes of peace.


  184. I too am noting w/great interest the cringing at the very notion of MPT among our lady members, a most telling sign, yes? Afterall, again, the test is painless, easy and accurate. Why would any Woman who’s on the level cringe from it being administered? Shouldn’t it put to bed, once and for all, any questions in the matter? If the interests of the child is what truly matters, isn’t knowing the truth in said child’s best interests?

    O


  185. P.S. free advice: many states calculate alimony and child support on the basis of how much you’ve earned or expect to earn over the last or next 3 years. So its best to investigate that amount and downsize your pay accordingly—take a nonprofit/social worker job, sell the house for a smaller shack and rent, etc. Claim to the cheating whore you want to give back. Then, when the time period is up, divorce her and go back to a better career. Many places won’t adjust alimony/child support even if your income zooms up.


  186. doug1:

    with all due respect, if you read my comment i state that its entirely possible that our government would have no qualms about forcing a cuckolded man to pay for children, but if you have the sources to support that claim (the one you claim i’m naive about) then you should provide those links.

    as far as male rape, people in this country are “forced” to pay for other people’s children all the time, it’s called welfare and CHIPS and other such programs. should we start calling that “rape” or better yet “male rape” since men pay the majority of taxes?

    i’m just trying to tamp down the hyperbole around this issue that’s all, i agree with the roissy’s sentiment and POV. men are getting screwed, but when we start playing the victim card, crying that our gender is being raped, i wonder how long it is before our “masculinity movement” turns into a slightly higher T-leveled feminist movement, complete with shirllness.


  187. Stupid Links Each Time

    How nice that you click on my links. I feel honoured.

    Go be offended somewhere else, please.
    you say this now but if something was to happen to any of your female family members, you would feel otherwise.


  188. Do women reading this know what the penalty for adultery (let alone cuckolding) under Islam is?

    While I do not agree with the severity of Islamic punishments, it nonetheless is pretty easy for Western men to merely stop fighting against Islam’s agenda of domination, and just step aside.

    Let’s step aside, so that there is only air between Muslims and feminists/Perez Hilton.


  189. Obsidian
    I too am noting w/great interest the cringing at the very notion of MPT among our lady members, a most telling sign, yes

    Not all of us. IIRC, Elizabeth, your love lost Mu :) and possibly hello had no problems with MPT.


  190. [...] abomination is not the doctors’ fault because the politicans and judges set the rules and stupid advice columnists don’t care.  While I hate politicians more than doctors, the government’s actions do not excuse the [...]


  191. “I suspect that most women would support legislation to stop that.”

    –anony, lying will get you no where.

    I distinctly remember that cunt Leeza Gibbons having an entire show (when she ahd her talk show in the 90s) where she tried to make the case that men who discovered they weren’t the father *had a moral obligation* to not only pay, but raise the child.

    But it was through that show that I learned that Harry, Prince Charles and Diana’s 2nd son, is probably not his. Diana was rumored to be having an affair at the time with her military bodyguard…who looks exactly like Harry (red, curly hair, freckles, while Charles is dark).

    And Leeza claimed Prince Charles would be *bad* for casting the wretch off.


  192. —”Agree that a cheek swab seems simple enough technically, but the message from the state to women is “you are not to be trusted.” and then women should respect their state?”—

    We use the breathalizer, don’t we? What’s the message there? Or the fact that my taxes get deducted automatically. Or that to own a firearm I have to submit to a background test. Whining about a test that may make women not “trust” thr gov’t is bullshit. You’re just upset the easy money will stop.

    I get it. Women trust that the state will financially rape men. Can’t have that “trust” broken now can we? Toughen the fuck up.


  193. Obsidian wrote :

    I too am noting w/great interest the cringing at the very notion of MPT among our lady members, a most telling sign, yes?

    One correction in that sentence. They are ‘ladies’ no more. Not after this.

    lurker wrote :

    So its best to investigate that amount and downsize your pay accordingly—take a nonprofit/social worker job, sell the house for a smaller shack and rent, etc.

    Even better, do a startup, that too in a place where laws will be in your favor (emerging economy, etc.). That way, it does not look like you are faking it. You are simply being an entrepreneur, who is drawing no salary while you build your company.

    Divorce in the meantime.


  194. The anony argument against MPT’s as a requirement for children reminds me of shakespeare:

    *Methinks the lady doth protest too much.*


  195. @Dave,
    I’m agreeing with this , and have discussed it with other women who’ve agreed.
    Aside from that, you women have been conditioned by society to consider rape a fate worse than death. Sorry dear, but there are worse things one can endure than simply rape.

    I had a roommate who was raped by a man she met at a bar. She recovered fast, but did get the satisfaction of contributing to his court verdict. Court cases are rare, but i suspect, contribute to some satisfaction. My point is that not all women would consider rape worse than death. The public voices are those who skew toward elevating its heinousness. Voices like my old roommate don’t get heard because she recovers and moves on to flirting in bars with guys again.


  196. @doug- You do known that sometimes men are raped as well as molested as children. Men who have been raped are as troubled about it as women. Some people never get over it. That feeling that someone took something from you that wasn’t theirs to take. Someone that is such a part of your being human and possibly exposing you to diseases and pregnancy.

    The fact that a few men are throwing around rape with ease makes me wonder whose really reading this blog?


  197. on May 12, 2009 at 4:45 pm Stupid Links Each Time

    —How nice that you click on my links. I feel honoured.

    Go be offended somewhere else, please.
    you say this now but if something was to happen to any of your female family members, you would feel otherwise.—

    Nope, just rolled over them. And I don’t care about your bullshit family member claims about rape. Whine, bitch, moan, suffer, etc… Heard it all before. Feel free to peddle your shit as usual, it ain’t my website to police.


  198. Doug1

    > OK, which of you would say that to your intended?

    I’ve essentially done all of that… but not the prenup. From what I’ve gathered about Ontario law, the prenup is essentially useless once children enter the picture (and we intend to start our large family fairly soon after we marry).

    I have screened my fiancee heavily for things in addition to physical attractiveness, and she stacks up very well with the social indicators (good family, *very* low number of boyfriends, fairly religious, spontaneous demonstrations of love, alpha father I respect, etc). I have LTR game. She will be earning a large fraction of what I make (thanks Tood).

    Anyone else have any advice on the matter? I figured it wasn’t worth the potential emotional damage if the agreement would be invalidated in a couple years anyways.

    I did tell her about the paternity testing and punishment for infidelity (which will be the same that many here have advocated for cuckoldry, lol), though.


  199. Roissy

    We all agree on the plain evil of divorce laws.

    What I see is the trade-off between:
    - life working for the benefit of a whore who give him occasional sex, fullfills the social roles of a wife (i.e, he can still go to those events where only couples go) and a bastard who may love him in old age
    - sexless life, still paying , but paying less, for the whore/bastard, possibly lonely in old age, and impoverishment of the whore/bastard.

    with a good dose of self-denial, which the guy has already shown, the first option is quite viable

    What I don’t see is how the break-up of this individual marriage will help dismantle the divorce industry. It can only happen through a revolution, like MPT/sexbots or the Caliphate. Obviously the Caliphate implies a lower standard of living, to say the least.


  200. @lurker,
    The anony argument against MPT’s as a requirement for children reminds me of shakespeare:

    *Methinks the lady doth protest too much.*

    what’s “too much” lurker? MPT would be an egregious slap at almost all women. We don’t want to be treated with such distrust and lack of respect.


  201. Toad:

    “…what is to prevent the woman from bribing a doctor to give her a fake test, so that she can get child support from the man?”

    Nothing is preventing her from doing this, but HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED? you can think up all the shitty what-if scenarios you want, but this discussion is one of trends and patterns and possibility, not the realm of outliers and freak occurences.

    “Chuck = SWPL Beta.”

    OK. if you think so Toad.

    “Anyway, this is someone who thinks Mao and Stalin were not left-wing, so judge his words accordingly.”

    No, dick nose, i said hitler was not left-wing. mao and stalin had strictly socialistic desires that culminated in totalitarian regimes. hitler was almost stricly nationalist, xenophobic, and for racial purity, all traits common to the right-wing extremist topic of our previous discussion.

    If you read at all on the subject, right-wing and left-wing, when they enter their extreme phases often have over-lapping ideologies and goals for their nations. Perhaps they have conservative or liberal viewpoints in their fledgling years, but by the time they reach full-blown dictator status, there is very little difference in their ruling styles; its all about control, control, control.


  202. stupid links time
    Nope, just rolled over them
    WOw just wow. :(


  203. Lurker

    And Leeza claimed Prince Charles would be *bad* for casting the wretch off.

    When creditors used to call me, leaving a voice message that they had a “very important situation to discuss”, I always mentally responded with “Important to whom?”

    It’s the same for morals. Important to whom?

    There are no universal morals. Men and women have different agendas. Grow up.


  204. anony, speaking lies to the truth:

    “what’s “too much” lurker?”
    —-at all, anony.

    “MPT would be an egregious slap at almost all women.”
    —only to the sluts like you.

    “We don’t want to be treated with such distrust and lack of respect.”
    —then don’t get married or demand child support.


  205. anyone else up for bringing back people suing cheating wives for “breach of contract”?


  206. @anoy and dave- what’s the point of chatting up a ten in the bar when you can just follow her home and take it from her? Who needs game when you have brawn.

    Personally, anoy, being rapped troubles me a heck of lot more than having to take a MPT. I would smile as I’m having my mouth swabbed because I would know without a doubt who the father of my kid is.


  207. xsplat:

    “There are no universal morals.”

    —there are. Men discern justice, women discern convenience. For themselves. Always has been, always will be.

    This is why most religions prevent women from being religious leaders—they are incapable of looking for good or truth; it is the antithesis of their nature.

    Its also why men gravitate to the hard sciences and math; women can’t handle cold logic, rational thinking, or answers that can’t be massaged into what they want.


  208. Robin Hanson blogged this on Overcoming Bias, asking:

    “Is there any other common betrayal situation where neutral third parties would so strongly advise not looking to see if you’ve been betrayed? I can’t think of one.”

    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/ignoring-betrayal.html


  209. xsplat- claimed Prince Charles would be *bad* for casting the wretch off

    harry looks an awful lot like Princess Di’s brother. He has the same red hair and tall lanky build.

    Fun Fact: Harry is a red head Mandingo. He’s packing at least 9 and as thick as a polish sausage.


  210. “The fact that a few men are throwing around rape with ease makes me wonder whose really reading this blog?”

    Chic don’t act like your some divine saint here.


  211. on May 12, 2009 at 4:54 pm Dave from Hawaii

    You do known that sometimes men are raped as well as molested as children. Men who have been raped are as troubled about it as women. Some people never get over it. That feeling that someone took something from you that wasn’t theirs to take. Someone that is such a part of your being human and possibly exposing you to diseases and pregnancy.

    The fact that a few men are throwing around rape with ease makes me wonder whose really reading this blog?

    No, you’re merely seeing the script flipped here, and as a female, you don’t like it one bit. To your femi-centric way of thinking, the horror of a rape that some people never get over is a thought that cringes your female soul.

    Well, my dear, how long do you think it takes a man who discovers his wife’s cuckoldry to get over that particular mind-fuck?

    What about the numerous court cases that involve judges ENFORCING cuckoldry because the “father” and the child have already “bonded?” That the ‘Best interests of the child’ were served?

    It’s not that we men here are trivializing rape. We’re merely comparing it to an equally disgusting and horrifying crime.

    You say there’s no comparison. I say that you women, and a few SWPL-libtards are simply throwing around cuckoldry with ease.


  212. Toad:

    “Do women reading this know what the penalty for adultery (let alone cuckolding) under Islam is?

    You’re going to call me SWPL beta for questioning the definition of the term “male rape”, and in the next breath tout the virtues of Islam? I’ll take “male rape” over Islamic rule any day.

    “While I do not agree with the severity of Islamic punishments, ”

    then why bring it up?


  213. schoolboy- believe it or not, there are plenty of women who don’t lay about with multiple men at the same time.


  214. chic–

    fun fact: I also think a women should have their fiancés take lie detector tests before they marry. It would save alot of money for both parties. Females won’t hitch themselves to trash for the long-term.

    I think girls in America today would be far more reluctant, as a group, to allow this than men.

    E.g.: “How many sexual partners have you had? Have you ever had sex outside a relationship? Really, you’ve never been fooled? How many times have you let that (rephrase, has that) happened? What’s the shortest time after meeting a man that you’ve had sex with him? Tell me about each man you have fallen in love with. How deep were your feelings at the time?”

    I’d answer all these questions no problem (and have) despite large numbers because I’m not hiding that. Marriage minded women, if they have more than small and committed ones, almost always are, at least to a large extent.

    Yes it’s a double standard. It should be. I celebrate it.

    BTW, there are ways of getting truth out of girls on these things. It’s best done early, before she falls in love with you and knows your true feelings re: girls you’d considering committing to.


  215. on May 12, 2009 at 4:56 pm femalemisogynist

    I agree, but I did have one thought: the strategy this bimbo suggests would be a good and workable strategy for a woman who suspects she’s being cheated on. It’s possible that she’s giving this cuckold the advice she’d give another woman. No doubt she’s too clueless to realize why it doesn’t work that way.


  216. Most women don’t realize how absolutely horrific cuckoldry is for a man. I can’t speak for every guy out there, but for me I would much rather be sent to prison and anally raped than have my wife cheat on me and bear another man’s child.


  217. Dave from Hawaii- If MPT are done at time of birth, this will stop such occurrences.

    What about the numerous court cases that involve judges ENFORCING cuckoldry because the “father” and the child have already “bonded?” That the ‘Best interests of the child’ were served?

    bullshit, the father should be reimbursed for any monies he spent on a child that was not his.


  218. Tood–

    I would not kill her or the innocent child,

    It never even occurred to me to kill the child.

    As well I’d simply leave her rather than kill her, if that could be the end of that.

    It’s when she then moves to make me pay her lots of my accumlated savings when the marriage ended because of her deepest possible deception in lying about he paternity of her child, and even wants ongoing support of that bastard that’s not mine …

    Then and only then do I start to have thoughts of murdering her.

    And feel totally morally justified in having them.

    I’d sure as hell feel it more than alright to credibly threaten to kill her if she doesn’t totally drop the child support suit.


  219. “I agree. In India, there was very little cheating, until the proliferation of :

    1) Cellphones
    2) Internet
    3) Cable TV with soap operas that glorify cheating.”

    This is patently absurd. There has always been plenty of cheating in India (and every other country on the planet), just as there has always been plenty of premarital sex (perhaps not in India or other places where couples were often wed before puberty, but that’s beside the point). I’m not sure why this simple truth is so hard for some to grasp.


  220. Chic, being chic:

    “harry looks an awful lot like Princess Di’s brother. He has the same red hair and tall lanky build.”
    —and the bodyguard she slept with.

    “Harry is a red head Mandingo. He’s packing at least 9 and as thick as a polish sausage.”
    —-and you know this how? Chuck is all ears.


  221. As for mandatory paternity testing, I’m only cautiously optimistic it will be widely adopted. I forsee some innocuous law requiring both parents to consent to such a medical procedure.

    My friend in the Marines described their attitude to war as:
    If you get in a fight in a bar, most people will try to act tough, maybe through a punch. A Marine will smile, wait for you to turn around, then grab your head and smash your face into the bar.

    That’s the alpha attitude you need to take. When you find out, put on a good face for a while, get the legal papers ready, then buy her a trip to the spa for the weekend to get her out of the house and while she’s gone, move all of your stuff out of the house into locked storage, give the key to your lawyer then slam her with the divorce papers sunday night when she gets back and then go out, get drunk with the boys and fuck some other chick. That’s how you have to roll.


  222. thursday Most women don’t realize how absolutely horrific cuckoldry is for a man. I can’t speak for every guy out there, but for me I would much rather be sent to prison and anally raped than have my wife cheat on me and bear another man’s child.

    :shock:

    Wow thursday and that’s considering that prison ain’t the easiest place to surive even if your not raped.

    something tells me you may change your mind after coming across this guy.


  223. @lurker there are pics all over the net. Prez hilton puts pics of Harry being Harry up often.


  224. twiceaday- It’s because it’s right in our faces now and to an extent, celebrated.


  225. I’m a strong anti-cuckoldry man, but I must respectfully dissent from Thursday’s view. Anal rape in prison seems worse to me. (Don’t you watch Oz? ;-p )


  226. on May 12, 2009 at 5:08 pm Dave from Hawaii

    If MPT are done at time of birth, this will stop such occurrences.

    Yeah…but what does this have to do with our debate about the equivalence between rape and cuckoldry? This is the exact sort of deflection you regularly do here that draws roissy’s ire.

    You were trying to argue that there is no comparison between a female being raped and cuckoldry, and when I rebut, you resort to this? Where did I say I was against MPT at birth? I’m all for that.

    bullshit, the father should be reimbursed for any monies he spent on a child that was not his.

    This is not what happens frequently…

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=child+support+not+father&btnG=Search&cts=1242162516881


  227. Carolyn Faux.
    She is a prototype of the girl that would stretch anything to her benefit,
    I hope everybody here can see through the lies of those that believe in them themselves…


  228. I think that the dicussion surrounding rape is very interesting. Insofar as I am concerned, it is a crime where a person is sexually violated against their will. Commonly this is associated w/Women as victims, although as Chic has rightly noted, kids and even other Men can and have been raped.

    Chuck’s disagreement with the use of the word “rape” within the context of Paternity Rape is also interesting. He suggests instead that it is more akin to fraud, robbery and thievery. I don’t disagree w/this view. However, in light of the grave implications involved, from an evolutionary and genetic point of view, coupled with wilful deception and indeed theft, I must respectfully disagree w/Chuck, someone whom I usually enjoy reading and often agree with. Let me be clear: the very nature of Cuckoldry is indeed a form of rape, if, we accept that rape is the violation of another’s body on sexual grounds. Here, a Man is violated on sexual grounds-he is led to believe that he is investing time, emotions and resources/money into a child he believes is his own but very well may not be, and the child is the product of sexual actions taken on the part of his wife and another Man, yet he’s led to believe his own sexual acts have brought the child about.

    Moreover, in many ways, given the coercive nature of many courts etc, I would strongly argue that Cuckoldry is inherently worse than the garden variety female rape, in that the cuckold has to continue supporting a child he knows is not his own for years, and all that comes w/it in emotion and mental health terms. That Women in the main are nonplussed by this, is again, most telling.

    If Chic is reading along, I do not recall Liz or Hello making such statements, and in any event are not here now to speak for themselves; what we do know is that the current Women in the room seem to have opted for fighting tooth and nail against a simple, painless and astonishingly accurate test to put everyone’s mind at ease. Fascinating.

    O


  229. Prison rape has been exaggerated by the last 20 years of movies and TV shows (think Oz) about prison. Mostly, the shows depict gay male (and closeted men’s ) fantasies about having sex with a straight man or being “forced” to do so, so its “not really their fault.”

    It’s every gay man’s fanatasy to have a macho straight virgin, just like straight men like the idea of having an innocent Catholic school teenage virgin.

    At this point, I think the movies have affected reality—life imitating art—but most people who talk about prison say the same thing: its mostly just veyr boring, intespersed with bouts of violence.


  230. on May 12, 2009 at 5:11 pm Marcus Aureliette

    I too am noting w/great interest the cringing at the very notion of MPT among our lady members, a most telling sign, yes?

    Not all. I support it wholeheartedly. I actually think that making it mandatory takes away the honey-don’t-you-trust-me?! aspect of it: just lump it in with all the other millions of tests done throughout pregnancy/post-pregnancy, and let the chips fall where they may. No individual guy will have to request it, nor deal with the relationship brouhaha that such a request would likely cause.

    If you haven’t done anything dishonest, you have nothing to worry about.


  231. Chic, have you heard of stuffing?

    I’m not lookign up Harry nude, btw. Give me a news story.

    And Perez Hilton? that faggy lying bitch? Citing him just put your whole argument in doubt.


  232. “Harry is a red head Mandingo. He’s packing at least 9 and as thick as a polish sausage.”

    Yes, its a well-known fact that redheads pack more heat than non redheads. It’s likely evolutionary, making up for our hair color.


  233. On a tangential note, a both sad and happy day for me was when I found out most porn stars aren’t as hung as the movies claim.

    1) smaller women (many porn girls are undersized)

    2) no accurate measuring system (who will verify claims? the U.S Census)

    3) shaving balls (looks longer)

    4) camera tricks

    5) claims based on anecdotal evidence only—porn girls willing to lie for co-stars (or for cash and coke).

    For every guy, knock off at least 1.5 inches of their claim. Probably the biggest in reality is 9 inches, which only Holmes/Steele can pull off.


  234. ” I’m not sure why this simple truth is so hard for some to grasp.”

    er… because you are wrong.

    Today, in Saudi Arabia, very few women are having pre-marital sex (outside of certain specialized circles).

    This was true in India as well, until recently. They were virgins at marriage, and cheating was just very hard to logistically execute, and too risky if caught. Period.

    Sure, you know more about it than people who actually lived there.


  235. “schoolboy- believe it or not, there are plenty of women who don’t lay about with multiple men at the same time.”

    and you are exempt from this “gangbang” how?


  236. Piglet
    I’m a strong anti-cuckoldry man, but I must respectfully dissent from Thursday’s view. Anal rape in prison seems worse to me. (Don’t you watch Oz? ;-p )
    Piglet, season 1 Alabese rapped the young Italian mobster. That poor man was never the same. They couldn’t get him to talk or anything, he just sat in bed looking at the ceiling all day.

    I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that OZ was as good as the wire.

    @chuck- the emo pete weitnz(tp) was a shocker too. Who would have thought that such a sensitive boy could be so manly.


  237. To wit: Asia Carrera, the famous porn star with the high IQ (and possibly the murderer of her husband, whose brakes got cut mysteriously close to the time she took out an insurance policy on him) stated that she would not work with a man over 8 inches.

    yet her roster of guys all looked very large on screen, even in the pre-internet days. As big as the guys claiming 9-10 inches now.


  238. Chic, you do understand the difference between fiction and reality, right?:

    “Piglet, season 1 Alabese rapped the young Italian mobster. That poor man was never the same. They couldn’t get him to talk or anything, he just sat in bed looking at the ceiling all day.”

    —its FICTION, chic. Not real.


  239. 691

    that’s the correct attitude. A guy who would take those attitudes is right to divorce. But the spineless beta, this one would never follow what you say.

    The guys who would follow your advice, or doug’s (murder) are the guys who would be benefited from divorce.


  240. twiceaday–

    There has always been plenty of cheating in India (and every other country on the planet), just as there has always been plenty of premarital sex (perhaps not in India or other places where couples were often wed before puberty, but that’s beside the point). I’m not sure why this simple truth is so hard for some to grasp.

    Numbers matter.

    Losey goosey concepts and thinking such as “there’s always been this and always been that” don’t. That’s worth crap.

    The percentage of women who cheat during marriage has gone WAY up in Anglosphere countries at least.

    If you think the fact that married women are no longer scorned for cheating on their husband as they used to be absent truly compelling circumstances, but widely sympathised with or at least treated with an “I won’t judge” attitude, hasn’t had a huge impact, you’re deluded. (Examples of the sort of compelling circumstances that used to be thought necessary before many would not judge a cheating wife harshly are: endemic and for years continued cruelty, or total and complete neglect despite concerted and extensive efforts long continued by her, combined with utter refusal to allow a divorce.)

    If you think the fact that women used to be severely punished economically in divorce if they could be proven to have cheated has not had a LARGE effect, you’re a moron.

    Feminism has caused both these changes. Feminism is directly responsible for the greatly increasing percentage of cheating wives, and the greatly increased percentage of divorce since feminism really took hold at the end of the 1960′s in some parts of society, and all over in the 1970′s.


  241. doug1, don’t forget the twin heads of the pill and abortion. They probably have encouraged it as much as feminazism.


  242. Oooooh. Bitchy little Chucky is getting prissy..

    1) Mao and Stalin were LEFT-wing. No hemming and hawing, they were left-wing, period.

    2) Hitler was left-wing. I showed you proof. You did not like it, so you ignored it.

    Chuck = SWPL Beta.


  243. Marcus Aureliette

    No individual guy will have to request it, nor deal with the relationship brouhaha that such a request would likely cause.

    I welcome the opportunity to brass out and request/demand it as a condition of getting married. See my script on that in the comments above.

    Any woman that wouldn’t easily agree, I don’t want to stay with.


  244. Chuck, by a strict definition, Hitler was left wing. He sought greater convernmental control over economic and social policies. Simply because he hated on non-whites instead of white males does not make his system any less left wing.

    Left wing groups all seek blaming some sub-group for problems and use government to reduce that group; these are always the richer groups. Commies killed lots of Jews and others, because they were wealthy; the Nazis blamed the Jews for the Weimer’s failures and non-Jewish poverty, so they killed.

    Nazis were avowed socialists. TThatw as the name of their party.


  245. Dave from Hawaii,

    Oh I know it doesn’t frequently happen but if I had my way, that’s the way things would be. if you are apart of the menz movement, it’s something you should be working on along with mpt. If I was a guy I wouldn’t sign a birth certificate until a DNA test proved the kid was mine.

    The crazy thing is, if women waited a simple three weeks before moving on to a new partner, the need for dna tests would decrease sharply.Just three short weeks Dave.

    I don’t agree with screwing up the lives of innocent children. Women need to think long and hard about who they have children with. There is too much birthcontrol available for so many women to become single parents.

    lurkerwhich only Holmes/Steele can pull off.
    lexington steele hurts his costars. Mr. Marcus puts it down. His costars really enjoy themeselves sometimes. Cuba was very popular in his day too. Some stars would make a request to work with him.

    mu Commonly this is associated w/Women as victims, although as Chic has rightly noted, kids and even other Men can and have been raped.

    Yea that sick itch from Cali comes to mind. Had she not killed the little girl, I wonder how/if the little girl would have gone on to live a normal life.


  246. anony–

    I agree with Chuck,

    Chuck: its obviously more akin to thievery or robbery

    You would.

    No, it’s more like rape. Or a regularly scheduled home invasion at gun point, once a month, for 21 years.

    A single instance of rape without issue sounds better.

    Despite all the female propaganda and hysteria about their special issues, and extraordinary lack of concern for exclusively male ones.


  247. Another way of looking at is that there is a sharp split in left wign ideology: fascists, while seeking governmental control voer economic and social policies, seek to keep nations separate from others (see Franco’s isolationism), and think that their socio-fascisitic policies will enable success of their nation over others. In other words, they are economically and socially socialistic but in terms of foreign policy they do not seek to break down borders but build them up; meat for us, not for you. Depend on each one another to beat the other.

    socialist-Commies seek to unite the economic and social strata of all people every where; no nations. meat for all. But commies avow that they cannot practice communism so long as one person holds out; therefore, socialism is only a short-term solution.


  248. Doug

    Feminism has caused both these changes. Feminism is directly responsible for the greatly increasing percentage of cheating wives, and the greatly increased percentage of divorce since feminism really took hold at the end of the 1960’s in some parts of society, and all over in the 1970’s.

    There is little to no feminism in Asia, yet the trends are the same.

    I see the causes as financial independence, and birth control.

    All these social causes are the stories we tell ourselves.

    A woman will fuck around if she can. Period. Social shaming does not stop women – a lack of options does. Give a woman options, she will take them. Period.


  249. lurker its FICTION, chic. Not real.

    yes it was but a very powerful piece of fiction. Remember Passion of the Christ was fictiona and the actor playing Jesus was not killed. That didn’t stop audience members from having heart attacks,asema attacks,crying, and fist fights amongst themselves.

    Even thought it’s TV&fiction, it can still play with our emotions.

    Chic, have you heard of stuffing?

    I’m not lookign up Harry nude, btw
    You meen he sliced it down the middle and stuffed something inside of it?
    naw, I don’t think Harry would so such a thing cause it ain’t that serious.


  250. on May 12, 2009 at 5:31 pm Comment_Whatever

    It doesn’t matter if the kid isn’t yours. There are rules, accidentally made up for situations like this, that JUST HAPPEN, by accident, to make the husband pay. The judge screaming about your ‘contempt of court’, the police pressing a gun in your face, the screaming ‘be reasonable’ guy ‘friends’ you have, don’t like it, but they sure as hell are going to enforce it. Fully.

    http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=guy.wisdom&category=family.guy&conitem=4a096f83c9821110VgnVCM10000013281eac____

    Your solution to the situation is simple. Liquidate all you can, run up every credit card, and then leave the country. If you secretly tested, then your ‘wife’ will have NO IDEA that you are preparing to leave. Take a month, take two, learn a foreign language. You have a time. Then, she’ll come home and you won’t be there.

    The ONLY states that will give you, as a worthless cockolded man, justice are:
    Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Maine, Mississippi, Ohio, Virginia, and Wisconsin

    Notice, that is only 10 out of 50 states.


  251. C’mon doug1, where’s your sense of trust?


  252. Chuck:
    “yes it was but a very powerful piece of fiction. Remember Passion of the Christ was fictiona and the actor playing Jesus was not killed. That didn’t stop audience members from having heart attacks,asema attacks,crying, and fist fights amongst themselves. ”
    —um, Chuck? Non sequitor. Chic was arguing that the rape in the movie showed how rape happened or affected people in real life prison situations. It is fictional. Its affect on the audience was not at issue.


  253. The irony is strong in this post, the man who stands to benefit most from cuckoldry is lamenting the female amoral creature.

    Yet more proof that the only honest men in this world are alphas.


  254. an even simpler way to think of the fascist/commie divide is this:

    Fascist desire to put all the systems of socio-communism into place except 1) destruction of national sovreignty and 2) destruction of class.


  255. Myself I’d never agree to adopt. Children are enough of a pain and a burden that at least I’d want a genetic immortality out of it, as well as a cultural imprint.

    I’m sorry to be somewhat rude but I’ve run into this falsehood enough times here. Genetic immortality is completely illusory. You would realize this if you had any inkling of the basic facts of the genetics of sexual reproduction. In the long run, by reproducing you only make a tiny difference in allele frequencies in your gene pool. Your degree of relatedness to your direct descendents is cut in half every generation. Your great-great-great-great-grandchildren might as well be complete strangers, genetically speaking.

    The real value of having genetic children is in having the opportunity to see familiar traits develop in them. From the point of view of an extended family such as an ethnic group with relatively crisp genetic boundaries, it makes little difference who precisely does the reproducing so long as no important traits are signifigantly over-represented among those who have children.

    If you want real immortality, get with the transhumanist program already. Choose to work in some of the relevant fields of science and technology.


  256. on May 12, 2009 at 5:36 pm Dave from Hawaii

    lurker – you’re attributing chic’s argument to chuck…but that’s okay, it’s not like theirs a substantive difference between the two.

    One is a chic, and the other thinks like a chic.


  257. Chic:

    “Mr. Marcus puts it down.”

    —proof?

    “Cuba was very popular in his day too. Some stars would make a request to work with him. ”
    —again, proof? Porn whores will say anything—these are people pretending to be in love/lust with the pizza guy! Show me some data.


  258. sorry, thanks Dave. names are similar, sometiems I read too fast


  259. Wouldn’t mandatory paternity testing hurt both men and women though? If a women does have a baby with someone who isn’t her husband (shame, etc. etc.), then that means that she’d probably hold the father responsible for child support ($$$$), right? If this actually came to fruition, does that mean that men would be more cautious about sleeping around too?


  260. on May 12, 2009 at 5:39 pm Tupac Chopra

    lurker:

    Yeah, my friend (who is Muslim) told me I’d probably be best off with a Muslim girl, since they’re the only ones who actually keep their morality—even if it is on pain of death. Sadly, the Catholic ones are Catholic in name only.

    Now see here, young man. Please refrain from speaking of my Clio in that manner. She’s not one of those trollops.


  261. Obsidian-

    Moreover, in many ways, given the coercive nature of many courts etc, I would strongly argue that Cuckoldry is inherently worse than the garden variety female rape, in that the cuckold has to continue supporting a child he knows is not his own for years, and all that comes w/it in emotion and mental health terms. That Women in the main are nonplussed by this, is again, most telling.

    Exactly.

    It goes on, and on, and on, and on.


  262. For those who are wondering about Prince Harry’s father, google “Prince Harry”, “James Hewitt”, “Charles, Earl Spencer”, and “Prince Charles”. Then tell us whether you’re still so certain that Hewitt has to be Harry’s father.

    First, Hewitt looks quite a bit like Lord Spencer. Second, Harry looks more like Lord Spencer than like Hewitt. Third, Harry has his father’s narrow, slightly too-close-together eyes, though he’s better-looking than either of his parents.

    Clio

    p.s. The reason compulsory paternity testing won’t ever be imposed (I think), is that it isn’t in the state’s interest to impose it. What if the baby turned out not to be related to his “legal” father but his mother couldn’t or wouldn’t name the biological father? Or the biological father refused to be tested? The state would then be stuck with the child-support costs.

    I don’t think that any of this is fair to men, mind you. I’d stop it if I could do so by fiat, and I would definitely tell that Post columnist to take a hike. In fact, I will do so, just to prove that I do in fact support men in this situation.


  263. porn chicks have 4 concerns in mind:

    1) how much will I get paid?

    2) will there be any coke?

    3) how famous will I be (fuck you dad!)

    4) again, how much will I get paid?

    Barring that, they’ll sleep with anyone who doesn’t tear up their vagina and doesn’t smell or otherwise hurt their earning power. This is why many refuse interracial, because it can hurt a girl’s earning power—a niche market can turn off the bigger market.

    Porn shotos last hours, not the 20 minutes a scene works, so the girl never orgasms, or if she does, its early on and she’s then being rubbed raw. Porn girls just want a guy that can stay hard, isn’t ugly (ron jeremy), and treats them acceptably.


  264. “does that mean that men would be more cautious about sleeping around too”

    -Male pill. Vasectomy. End scene.


  265. kim–

    Wouldn’t mandatory paternity testing hurt both men and women though? If a women does have a baby with someone who isn’t her husband (shame, etc. etc.), then that means that she’d probably hold the father responsible for child support ($$$$), right? If this actually came to fruition, does that mean that men would be more cautious about sleeping around too?

    I don’t think careless sluts should get any child support. You know, like in days of yore. A few decades ago. (After all, all of the seven or eight common methods of birth control are within their sole control and knowledge. And women have always been the ones to regulate when the sex act occurs, or doesn’t — and still are.)

    Guess what, since they started to be able to, and were no longer called sluts and whores, and their issue bastards, but rather unfortunate single mothers, their number has EXPLODED. Funny that, what?


  266. sorry, clio, but he loooks like hewitt. An dit would be natural that two lighter red-headed genese would result in a more redheaded child. its science.

    http://njmg.typepad.com/ervolino/images/2008/03/02/prince_harry_james_hewitt_20050413.jpg


  267. Since we are on this whole child support and MPT theme. Let me add this gem. Don’t for any reason give your sperm to a single woman or two lesbians who want to have a child. I don’t care if they’re your childhood friends, like a sister or any of that other BS, don’t do it I don’t care how many papers you sign and/or you assemble your own version of a dream team.

    Men have been cuckoled this way too. I read a story about two lesbians who got a guy to give them some juice and they turned around & sui they guy for child support. Can you imagine how stupid that guys feels??? He didn’t even get a chance to taste/feel the walls yet he has got to dish out his loot. If you gotta pay and least have a chance to play.


  268. meanwhile, this is Diana’s brother:

    http://thepeerage.com/100889_001.jpg


  269. Lurker–

    A vasectomy is like a woman having her tubes tied. It must be assumed to be, and usually is (esp. after a number of years) permanent.

    Valved vasectomies on the other hand are very interesting. They’re in clinical trial in Australia. I think perhaps India as well.


  270. The reason compulsory paternity testing won’t ever be imposed (I think), is that it isn’t in the state’s interest to impose it.

    Yep. Just like marriage is bad for the state, since two single people pay more in total taxes than a married couple.

    But paternity testing need not be compulsory. All a man has to do is get a Q-tip and go get it done, secretly.


  271. To Chuck:

    Canada: http://thescottross.blogspot.com/2009/01/man-has-to-pay-child-support-for.html

    Notice the sex of the judge.

    U.S.: http://lawvibe.com/dna-proves-not-biological-father-but-forced-to-pay-child-support/

    No hope here, 7-0.

    There are cases where a boy who was a victim of statutory rape was ordered to pay up, one where the cuckolded husband had to send child support payments to the guy that was fucking his wife and more.

    Anyhow, you asked for citations on men ordered to pay child support for kids that are not theirs and so here a couple are.


  272. FYI, the pill is there. You just need a company to make and distribute it. It’s been around for a few years now. People in the medical community think no men will take it so that ‘s why they are having problems getting in on the market. Men who are apart of the men’s movement, get working on this.


  273. don’t do it I don’t care how many papers you sign and/or you assemble your own version of a dream team.

    That is why one donates to a bank, where you don’t know who the recipient is, and they can’t find out who you are, until the kid is 18 and chooses to contact you.

    Of course, most men don’t have this option.


  274. I wouldn’t take it (let the woman fuck up her body if she wants); I bring my own condoms and use them. and I insist on paternity tests.

    But then again, most women in NYC don’t want to trap me into being a father and are on the pill. NYC 22 year olds are like that ;).


  275. doug1,

    I don’t think careless sluts should get child support either, and chances are that if mandatory paternity testing was made legal, that the amount of careless sluts would go down making everyone more monogamous…including males (not by choice but because women would be scared to sleep around), no?


  276. clio First, Hewitt looks quite a bit like Lord Spencer. Second, Harry looks more like Lord Spencer than like Hewitt. Third, Harry has his father’s narrow, slightly too-close-together eyes, though he’s better-looking than either of his parents

    yea, I agree with you. Harry’s eyes look more like Prince Charles and he has the coloring of his uncle.


  277. Guess what, since they started to be able to, and were no longer called sluts and whores, and their issue bastards, but rather unfortunate single mothers, their number has EXPLODED. Funny that, what?

    Taiwan is also experiencing profound cultural changes, and many men get their wives from the mainland. It seems that if women become financially independent, they tend to become in many other ways independent. I guess you can call that “feminist”.

    The root of the reasons for Taiwanese women opting to not be good wives is financial, and related to birth control. Give a woman options…

    I see and see it and see it. There is no culture that is stronger than the economic and materialistic forces around it. If women have access to well paying jobs and birth control, they are free to fuck around as much as they like.


  278. @lurker- you can a few of mr. Marcus movie’s for yourself as well as reading about Cuba. Some stars are rougher than others and have a sort of hatred for their female costars mandingo being one of them and westly pipes being another. saw something with bella donna and rocko and was complety turned off. something ain’t right with bella donna, I don’t care what no one says. there is freaky and then there is sick.


  279. lurker bring my own condoms and use them.
    better take it with you and I hope it doesn’t break. It would be smatter to double up.


  280. On another note, it might come as a surprise that Women call virtually all of the shots in the straight Porn world; very few males can ascend into “stardom” unless they go the Gay Porn route, and many have done just that, including Peter North and Byron Long. In fact, its widely speculated that most male porn stars one sees in the movies have done at least some Gay Porn first. Barring that, the only other way to break into the business is to either be a rarified Alpha Male who can get it up, keep it hard and cum on cue while also having mad charisma that makes the ladies keep coming back for more, or, form your own porn company. This is what TT Boy has done, a Man who was nearly blacklisted outta Porn on the grounds that a number of Women didn’t want to work with him. His Evasive Angles has become a force to be reckoned with and he calls all his own shots.

    As for the size issues, I’m not surprised that there’s not much truth in advertising in Porn, lol. This happens with big bust porn stars as well, playing around w/their bra cup size and the like. And, again, we have to remember-most Women don’t particularly care for a Mandingo/Lexington Steele type of endowment, as Chic noted, that can be quite painful for most Women. The Size Queens of the world are almost all Gay and Male. Very few Women are into that sort of thing.

    Most of the Sisters I’ve spoken with report they tend to favor Mr. Marcus over Steele, Mandingo, and others, and as he’s not nearly as endowed, this seems to confirm my own views that such things aren’t the number one concerns of most Women.

    Personally, my problem w/most porn in our time is its utter lack of sexual chemistry, to say nothing of the piss poor condition of the male stars, who have NO seduction skills at all. Most Women don’t get wet during their scenes, the editing is fast and choppy, etc. Its quite a bore to watch most porn these days, I know it is for me.

    Anyway, back to the MPT debate…

    O


  281. Gig –

    Paternity testing kits are cheap and easy. They were a plot issue in “Veronica Mars” during it’s run about five years ago, and they have gotten cheaper and easier since.

    And the social driver, absent the clueless beta in this instance, is to make most marriages where cuckolding is true, dissolve quickly, often with the man doing his best to “punish” the woman by hiding assets and so on, and many more men refusing to get married.

    “Enough” women exposed as cuckolds and it’s the same thing as counterfeit currency. Even is the majority of women don’t cheat, most men will treat them as if they do. This is particularly true for men considering marriage.

    Most men would like marriage, since it’s a good deal for them, in terms of companionship and reproduction. But faced with a real risk of raising another guy’s kid, a lot of guys will simply refuse marriage and adopt “spread your seed” attitudes. It won’t happen overnight but can happen fairly rapidly.

    In 1950′s Britain, White working class men were mostly faithful, married, relatively meek, law abiding, and mild. By the 1980′s, around thirty years later, that changed considerably and by the 1990′s almost no White British working class men were married, nearly all (90% or more) had adopted “spread your seed” tactics.

    The bad news for women is that human beings including men are flexible. Men can and will quickly adapt to cuckolding by even a minority of women by going forward with spread-your-seed.

    Johnnymarks — that is a terrible thing to say and you should be ashamed of yourself. Cheating is bad, it’s not worthy of what you describe which should be limited to things like bin Laden. Societies where women are treated like cattle are no better than ones where women hold unlimited social and sexual power. No real man would react emotionally LIKE A WOMAN. Cheating is distressing, the only appropriate response is to remove one’s self from any such woman as quickly as possible and bang as many girls as possible. Anything else is acting like a woman with lots of testosterone.

    Act like a goddamn man. Men CONTROL their emotions.

    Anony — It does not MATTER what the state will do (typical female response by the way). Enough men will Paternity test because it’s cheap and easy and they’d like to know. Some men, weak, feminized, deplorable, will give way to cheap and easy emotion and murder their wives or do terrible things. Others, men in the real sense of the word, will simply divorce them and hide as many assets as possible and move on with their lives.

    [Women LOVE and almost to a woman support forcing beta men to pay for cuckolding and support, while worshipping guys like Obama, Edwards, and Clinton, who were Alpha Males cheating on their wives.]

    But for most, men will treat women as a currency with significant counterfeits. ANY commitment at all will require extensive “test and proof” just like nations with large amounts of counterfeit bills have transactions achingly slow as everyone checks laboriously for counterfeits.

    Women cannot FORCE men to commit and get married. Enough women cuckold men who do so, and pretty much most men will simply act like Roissy or G.

    As for wiping the beta from the gene pool, all that does is make the next generations of children the result of aggressive, socially dominant men. IQ, and particularly IQ related to abstract thinking (technology, biological science, engineering) will all collapse. Since notorious womanizers are notably absent from those fields and certainly the mass of work required to create technological advances. Even the Wright Brothers and Edison depended on a whole network of other “beta” men who provided light-weight gasoline engines, or electrical wires and batteries, for their basic research.

    We already know what a female paradise of “spread your seed” looks like: the Congo.

    Xsplat: The Mighty culture of Mongolia is shaped by Ghengis Khan, who must have monopolized nearly all fertile women to produce today, centuries later, 15% of all men in direct male descent. So icky awful data suggests that Alpha male societies (Afghanistan, Mongolia, Congo, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia) are absent oil discoveries violent failures that produce nothing and easy prey for cooperative beta men who enforce female fidelity.


  282. Kim–

    that the amount of careless sluts would go down making everyone more monogamous…including males (not by choice but because women would be scared to sleep around), no?

    I think it would have a big effect on female carelessness but a much smaller effect on sleeping around.

    After all, girls at elite colleges especially if they have grad school in mind really, really don’t want to get preggers, by and large. In fact they almost always get abortions if they do become preggers, in my experience. This has not dampened the amount of casual sex at elite colleges compared to elsewhere in this age group, from what I can tell. If anything, this age group at top colleges does more rather than less quick rotation hooking up, compared to those in the workforce, from what I’ve seen.

    But would there be a decrease in children born to unwed mothers if the unwed didn’t get child support? Oh yeah.


  283. Roissy,

    You have been off on the last few posts…but this is dead on and important. Thank you for telling it as it is.


  284. dave Yeah…but what does this have to do with our debate about the equivalence between rape and cuckoldry?
    I wrote that I don’t think the two are equivalent. I guess that’s just my way of looking at things. I don’t harp on soemthin over and over for the most part.

    I think my response to doug just about covered it.
    You do known that sometimes men are raped as well as molested as children. Men who have been raped are as troubled about it as women. Some people never get over it. That feeling that someone took something from you that wasn’t theirs to take. Someone that is such a part of your being human and possibly exposing you to diseases and pregnancy


  285. Peter North and Byron Long.

    NOOOOOOOOO not peter north. He was one of the few who looks to give his female costars a good time. Byron long is the very light skinned brother right?


  286. As for artificial wombs and sexbots, I think most men have already created a classic case of substitution.

    For companionship and sociability: the “bromance” and hanging out with male buddies.

    For sex, pr0n. Which is a trillion dollar industry, making money constantly.

    Reproduction? Probably not, absent the wife who is faithful, I don’t see much impetus or desire for men to reproduce. Which creates a genetic bottleneck, guys who are lower in testosterone but higher in IQ in particular with unbounded female freedom and choice get frozen out of the reproduction market, absent Game and spread your seed.

    What you’ll see is on the bottom end, endless thugs as the only ones reproducing (lower socio-economic scale). For middle and upper income women, only Game type Alphas will impregnate them. With all due respect to Roissy and Roosh, these types of guys are unlikely to provide the next generation of engineers, bio-med researchers, geneticists, scientists, and mathematicians who will power our technological advances.

    What’s likely is Congo-like attitudes on the bottom and decadent aristocrats on the top and middle end.

    Which is already creating a crisis for women wanting Beta Men to marry them. Women play the field (particularly for women in their twenties) always chasing the more Alpha guy in the bar that night. In their thirties they’ve racked up 30-50 sex partners easily, and want to get serious. Female bloggers like “Dawn Summers” have noted how hard it is for them to date quality men, the few men who will date women in their thirties are either bitter betas, or quite lacking in attractiveness and social qualities.

    Most higher quality beta men have concluded that pr0n and male companionship beats being a cuckolded beta in a loveless marriage. Alphas are busy with girls in their twenties. A woman in her thirties is worthy of only pump and dump.

    Men have REACTED already to the shift in female power and selection. Most women just are not going to get married, as they age into their thirties, and they’ll just have to deal with that.


  287. Chic,
    The Male Pill is irrelevant; the issue wrt Paternity Fraud is that the Man was deceived into caring for a child not his own. Period. This is what must be rectified. MPT is one such way to address this.

    As for porn, I believe Belladonna has the interesting distinction of successfully deepthroating Lexington Steele. I haven’t seen this myself but have read about the feat. Wesley Pipes I consider to be a hoot, the guy’s funny. At least I think he is.

    There are guys in porn who could be considered misogynistic, but we have to remember as well, that quite a few Women like their sex rough n ready. So, I say to each his or her own.

    O


  288. Something tells me that a lot of people on here who support mandatory paternity testing also disapprove of legal abortions…but that’s just a guess.

    Anyway, I personally just don’t think that mandatory paternity testing would really help make society a better place. I get what people are saying about it and why they think it’s a good idea…but it just seems a bit radical to me. Like someone above mentioned…guilty until proven innocent doesn’t seem fair to me.


  289. whiskey

    So icky awful data suggests that Alpha male societies (Afghanistan, Mongolia, Congo, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia)

    I’m not informed on the geographical spread of his seed, but are you correct that it was in the countries you listed? And even so, how do you know that his 15% is not a net boon, rather than drain, on the society?

    I get your point – the tecnically inclined are a social strength, and I agree that such people often lack social skills. Still and all, geeks get paid well, and don’t seem to be suffering badly, in the sexual marketplace.


  290. How the hell can Caroline Hax dissuade the man from getting a paternity test? It is so cheap, easy, and discreet.

    I suspect Caroline Hax has herself cuckolded her husband, which is why she is being evasive and wants to scold the Beta male for being beta.


  291. Why the fuss? Hax is a hack. Besides she’s only defending her gender. And there are no limits when self-preservation is at stake.


  292. ROISSY!!!!

    Listen what a culture slowly destroys the drive to reproduce among its people, the population that follows that culture withers away.

    The world doesn’t end, only those who follow the directive to NOT reproduce cease to exist.

    Call it “Cultural Darwinism” if you will….. (btw this is not a scientific term I just made it up)

    Now…. what culture will replace the present one? Simple a culture that values polygamy and encourages both men and women to procreate.

    And it is already happening:


  293. Mu Most of the Sisters I’ve spoken with report they tend to favor Mr. Marcus over Steele, Mandingo, and others, and as he’s not nearly as endowed, this seems to confirm my own views that such things aren’t the number one concerns of most Women.

    yea there is just something about Mr. Marcus. Besides being very handsome and one heck of a licker. he just radiates manliness on screen. He seems alpha but a little beta(shy and sweet) at the same time while being able to fix your car or the plumbing in your kitchen zinc.


  294. Why the fuss? Hax is a hack. What can you expect? After all, she’s defending her gender. And there are no limits — moral, ethical, logical or otherwise — when self-preservation is at stake.


  295. @Mu- Obsession is one of the few females who looks like she is really enjoying herself.


  296. on May 12, 2009 at 6:24 pm Dave from Hawaii

    That feeling that someone took something from you that wasn’t theirs to take. Someone that is such a part of your being human and possibly exposing you to diseases and pregnancy

    Oh? And you think the cuckolded man doesn’t feel like someone took something from him that wasn’t theirs to take? Like his own family? His offspring? His Wife’s Matirmonial Vows?

    Something like your own offspring is certainly part of being a human….and not to mention possibly exposing you to tremendous heartbreak in finding out that the child you may have spent YEARS supporting, raising and caring for is NOT YOUR OWN?

    Sorry chic, you will never understand that cuckoldry can be just as much if not worse of a violation of a man’s basic human rights as the rape of a female.


  297. Dave

    Sorry chic, you will never understand that cuckoldry can be just as much if not worse of a violation of a man’s basic human rights as the rape of a female.

    And what would be her motivation to understand? The search for truth, goodness, and beauty?

    Ha. When attributing intentionality to women, cynicism is a habit better than trust.


  298. “better take it with you and I hope it doesn’t break. It would be smatter to double up.”

    -Chic, you do know that doubling up on condoms *reduces* their effectiveness, right?

    and your basic opinion on which male porn stars are beloved is based on…the kinds of movies they do? Not real convincing there. Id take a stat on who was requested.

    O, I hear you. In fact, many female stars are allowed a “No” list, of male porn stars they’ll never work with. Most, like you have supposed, base it on size—they don’t want to be torn up. Most women want a man who is above average in all respects (height, looks, money, penis size, smarts, etc.) but not extremely above average—especially penis size.

    Most female stars are beat up after 3-5 years–it’s the same shelf life of an NFL running back, and, if you think about it, they both take the same amount of people pounding them (heh). Even MILF porn stars usually start late (28-29) and are flabby messes in half a decade, despite their “experience.”

    However, if you become a “studio girl” you can last a long time now . Studio girls—girls who sign exclusive long term contracts with big porn studios, like (or maybe only) Vivid–are carefully controlled: the studio only puts them in high quality productions, limits the numbers of scenes or men they take per year, limits exposure in magazines and stripping, prevents them escorting (how many girls make extra money on the sly), etc. That includes barring them from being in most internet porn (good bye Bang Bus).

    They set up P.R. as well; Howard Stern doesn’t choose them as guests blindly, you know.

    This is, sneakily, how Jenna Jameson lasted so long–she limtied her exposure so she was the desireable whore.

    ‘Course studios only invest contract money in top quality girls; ugly or plainer girls don’t get the protection. Notice how Bree Olsen isn’t so available anymore on downloads —or maybe that’s just me—she signed a contract.

    And now, with my in depth knowledge of porn industry insider information, I will now light myself on fire.


  299. Obsidian
    Chic,
    The Male Pill is irrelevant; the issue wrt Paternity Fraud is that the Man was deceived into caring for a child not his own. Period.

    Actually it’s not. Prevention is the best type of protection. If a woman comes to you and says she pregnant you can tell her “hell no, it’s not mine”. Then proceed to tell her that your on birthcontrol . IIRC there was a man here who posted such a story just that he had had a vasectomy.


  300. lurker -Chic, you do know that doubling up on condoms *reduces* their effectiveness, right?
    Lurker, doubling up with the male pill and condoms not two condoms.


  301. “That feeling that someone took something from you that wasn’t theirs to take.”

    So sort of like when a girl says “I’m on the pill” or the equivalent?

    “possibly exposing you to diseases and pregnancy”

    So sort of like when a girl cheats on you, perhaps all virused out and, well, pregnancy which (unlike a woman) you have no say so over?

    If it is diseases and pregnancy which makes a rape so awful, then cuckoldry is actually worse in as much as it has the same things but one more on top: threats of prison if you don’t pay up the cash for something you have no say so about.

    Not saying that this *is* what makes rape so horrible, but if that is what makes it so horrible, then cuckoldry + pregnancy is worse.


  302. This guy needs a lawyer. I think he’ll find out he is screwed. There is a statue of limitations to challenging paternity.

    He should just come straight out and ask for a paternity test.I don’t think if their marriage is happy she will be so unhappy to take the test. If she loves him, she will have no problem reassuring him. It could even flatter her, by making her realize that he appreciates how sexy she is.

    If she refuses, that’s your answer.

    The reluctance of women to allow such testing is all the argument you need, as men, for insist on this testing.

    This is just an example of the mistreatment of men in our society. He will be forced to pay child support no matter what the testing shows. The woman will suffer not the slightest legal or financial penalty. He should divorce her if the child is not his. After all, this will just happen again and again. He deserves better. Betas are essentially good people. They have just believed all the lies.


  303. O, one reason female stars are in power is that guys just want a generic cock in there—a cock that looks like their’s. Its the hotness and wildness of the chick that matters.

    Some guys, like lex steele on being black and extreme, or North, being a large firehouse, get famous, but most guys just need to be reliable and generic.


  304. lurker and your basic opinion on which male porn stars are beloved is based on…the kinds of movies they do?
    No there costars reactions.

    Not real convincing there. Id take a stat on who was requested.
    read intervews of movie directors. That’s where I got my info from.

    Even MILF porn stars usually start late (28-29) and are flabby messes in half a decade, despite their “experience.”
    Nina Hartley is an exception. I bet Peter loves Nina.

    And now, with my in depth knowledge of porn industry insider information, I will now light myself on fire.
    LOL
    DA said you don’t know jack buddy.


  305. Chic, I ain’t fucking like that. Rather have somethign I can remove than a pill messing with my chemistry.

    I’ve been with many girls who refuse the pill for the same reason–its too important an area for something like that. That’s fine—my own condoms and shooting on their face works just as well.

    Lick it up, bitch!


  306. said to the tune of
    “no shirt, no shoes, no diiiiiice!” from fast times at ridgemont high.

    Just say….

    “no prenup, no dna test, no deal!”


  307. Ya, Chic, guys with vasectomies get that drama all the time. Sure, that works. So does paternity testing.

    Paternity testing is even better. You know what I love? I love it when the spider has me in her web, only to discover that I’m the real spider. I use a woman’s spider lair as my spider lair. I make her trap into my trap.


  308. lurker:

    didn’t write anything about “Passion of the Christ”


  309. Chic:

    “No there costars reactions”
    —so your stat is how well a porn star fakes her orgasm. Not strong Chic, not strong.

    “read intervews of movie directors. That’s where I got my info from.”
    —that I would take, but the msot requested list works better.

    “Nina Hartley is an exception. I bet Peter loves Nina.”
    —Nina quit for several years to live ina threesome. And looking at her now makes you cry for the cruelty of time.


  310. Nina Hartley is an exception. I bet Peter loves Nina.

    chic, don’t derail the thread. this one is too juicy and i want you to savor every pertinent comment. it has been delightful for me to witness the reactions of the women here confirming all my predictions.


  311. lurker Chic, I ain’t fucking like that. Rather have somethign I can remove than a pill messing with my chemistry

    I can respect this. I will say that I’ve taken something and my body became a little weird. I knew someone who had to be hospitalized for while behind her choice of BC.

    FUN female to female Joke: The reason they call it birth control is because it takes away your desire.

    Yup stuff made me dryer than the Sahara and colder than Greenland.

    and shooting on their face works just as well.
    A man was arrested for doing something of the such resently.


  312. Chic,
    I’m familiar w/Obsession and largely agree w/your assessment. She also seems one of the relatively few Women in porn who enjoy giving good blowjobs w/lots of spit.

    I haven’t noticed Mr. Marcus to be particularly adept at eating pussy but I’ll take your word for it. What I will say is that a Man learning how to make a Woman arch her back and make like Niagra Falls on the strength of his tongue certainly can’t hurt. This comes from direct personal experience.

    Kim,
    I do indeed support MPT and I am Pro Life. I fail to see your point; please explain?

    O


  313. chic, don’t derail the thread.
    no problem sir

    but i wasn’t trying to derail I just saw her as Peter’s type.
    this one is too juicy and i want you to savor every pertinent comment.
    why me?

    it has been delightful for me to witness the reactions of the women here confirming all my predictions.
    UH I could have told you that most women won’t agree.


  314. Chuck–

    You asked for links to cases in various states (and the UK, Canada and Australia) where men have been required to pay the full freight child support for the full statutory period for children which DNA tests have proven are not his. I’ve seen this many times. I don’t have them at hand. I could easily dig them up. So can you. Do your own looking. It’s a fact. I know of NO examples of an Anglosphere court (which was not reversed) holding that a man who’s acted as the father to a child for more than two years has been allowed to not pay full freight child support. Not a single one.

    i’m just trying to tamp down the hyperbole around this issue that’s all, i agree with the roissy’s sentiment and POV. men are getting screwed, but when we start playing the victim card, crying that our gender is being raped, i wonder how long it is before our “masculinity movement” turns into a slightly higher T-leveled feminist movement, complete with shirllness.

    First I’m not worried about “higher T-level feminists in a movement or otherwise. The only thing that makes feminist arguments effective is when they get lots of male support. That’s generally based upon misinformation, and a failure for contrary men to get their message out.

    As far as playing the victim goes, that’s the wrong way to look at it. Sure that charge will be thrown or more often implied. (That’s what “bitter” and similar that is reflexively thrown out by feminists including here sometimes, is all about. Doesn’t work so well on men that have a long history of success with hot women.)

    Anyone can suffer from unjust laws aimed at them as a group. In that sense men as a group are victims.

    The notion that alphas are never divorced is simply untrue. It’s also not impossible that an alpha could have a cheating wife conceive a child by another alpha, and hide it from her husband, who she really doesn’t want to lose. Some women are sluts. Some women who were goodish to catch a catch of a husband allow themselves to relax and become sluts later.

    Read cheating wives blogs. Although most seem to be married to higher betas, some seem to be married to alphas of one kind or another. Women almost always say there’s something wrong with their husband to deflect blame from themselves for cheating, which residually remains although just barely in many corners of our culture.

    Sometimes though it’s pretty clear that she’d cheat on ANYONE after awhile, unless she was terrified of ending up on the street with a kid with little to no money. There really does seem to be something to Michelle Langley’s theory (taken from some in socio biology / evo psych) that women tend to have a four year period of strongly bonding with a man they fall deeply in love with, but thereafter it’s often much weakened, and especially if she has a high sex drive, she’s likely to look for her next attractive man, who’s attraction to her renews her sense of special female worth.

    Consider how long Hollywood alpha male marriages last, particularly to celebrity equals or near equals.

    Yeah it’s less likely that alphas will be cheated on or have their wife bear another’s child. But it still happens.


  315. @lurker- you can almost always tell a faker or at least I can.


  316. Cptnplm:

    From the link about the man in Florida ordered to pay support for a child that wasn’t his.

    “Unfortunately, however, Florida has a one-year statute of limitations to prove fraud after a divorce, and Parker didn’t file in time.”

    The fact that he has to pay for another man’s child makes me sick to my stomach. I would move to another country, but unfortunately, they got him on an unrelated legal technicality which makes this case somewhat different.

    I do not doubt whatsoever that the legal system in this country would force a man to pay for a child that isn’t his, I’m merely arguing that those taking roissy’s claim that this is akin to “male rape” are misguided in their analogy.

    it’s highway robbery, and really, it’s just as bad. i’m merely arguing a semantical point here because i cringe when i think of men playing the rape victim card given that rape has a certain connotation of weakness that being robbed doesn’t really carry.


  317. on May 12, 2009 at 6:43 pm michael farris

    “a real man couldn’t care less if his ex-wife’s child of another man’s seed were to be exposed on a hilltop to hungry vultures.”

    I guess this also means a real man doesn’t care if his changeling children are exposed on a hilltop to hungry vultures.

    That would explain why alphas aren’t necessarily the evolutionary powers they think they are – they really don’t care about their children whether changeling or legitimate (assuming they ever try to commit).

    Betas might raise some changelings along the way but they also have a better track record of raising and protect their own kids to reproductive age. Alphas are basically turtles, they reproduce without knowing it and abandon their children to the caprices of fate.


  318. @chuck- A smarter bit would be to take custody of the child if you are attached to the child. I read about such a case where the cockuled husband/ex husband to his wife to court and won. if you really want to sock it to her, make her pay child support.


  319. I predict that this comment box will reach 900 comments before 12 midnight. Wow, nothing gets men going like this topic.

    FYI, you can purchase DNA testing kits in CVS.


  320. Chic

    FUN female to female Joke: The reason they call it birth control is because it takes away your desire.

    Yup stuff made me dryer than the Sahara and colder than Greenland.

    I read on newscientist.com that for some women the pill causes PERMANENT loss of libido.

    I always advocate Diane as the pill of choice – seems to have less adverse side affects, such as hair loss and bad temper, and sometimes makes the tits grow and grow.

    By the way, I previously posted here under the name Guy Noir, and wondered if you saw that and chose your name, or if you’ve been here longer, and I saw your name and subconsciously chose that one.


  321. Joe, I bet cuckoldry has very little to do with how attractive the woman is..

    anyone got stats on this?

    Roissy, how about a combined “cuckodress or not?” poll combined wiht a hotness rating/scale challenge?


  322. on May 12, 2009 at 6:49 pm Dave from Hawaii

    I predict that this comment box will reach 900 comments before 12 midnight. Wow, nothing gets men going like this topic.

    Sorta like the topic of rape with women, eh?


  323. on May 12, 2009 at 6:50 pm Marcus Aureliette

    Doug:
    I welcome the opportunity to brass out and request/demand it as a condition of getting married. See my script on that in the comments above.

    Any woman that wouldn’t easily agree, I don’t want to stay with.

    That’s entirely your prerogative, but it’s possible that not all men share your taste for confrontation. They still deserve to not be deceived about the paternity of the child they’ll be supporting, and making the test mandatory would accomplish that with far less potential drama.


  324. Chic: “you can almost always tell a faker or at least I can.”
    —why does every woman think her bullshit detector is the best on the planet? Probably b/c they each think they spew the most as well.

    No one can tell. That’s why I no longer care.


  325. MPT is the greatest idea since denying women the right to vote.


  326. Chic,
    OK I’ll bite-which of the better known female porn stars are faking it in your view? I’d be interested in hearing your views.

    O


  327. O:

    “Let me be clear: the very nature of Cuckoldry is indeed a form of rape, if, we accept that rape is the violation of another’s body on sexual grounds.”

    But O, rape is the violation of one’s body on sexual grounds because of the physical act of unwanted touching. Rape has a definition already:

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Rape

    It is forcible sexual relations with a person against that person’s will.

    there are plenty of other legal terms for what happens to a cuckolded man; robbery, theft, breach of contract etc. there is no need to alter the definition to fit a hyperbolic statement.

    “Here, a Man is violated on sexual grounds”

    no, the grounds upon which he was violated involved sexual activity, but he was not violated sexually per se. there is a difference here.

    “he is led to believe that he is investing time, emotions and resources/money into a child he believes is his own but very well may not be, and the child is the product of sexual actions taken on the part of his wife and another Man, yet he’s led to believe his own sexual acts have brought the child about. ”

    very well. she’s a raging cunt, i agree. i wouldn’t care if she were locked up in prison.


  328. Obsidian,

    Sorry, part of that is my fault because I forgot to put that it was a response to Doug. Anyway, if you look at his comment to me above he is saying that MPT wouldn’t have an effect on sleeping around because girls have control over most birth control methods and can get abortions. My argument was that MTP would mean a more monogamous society for both men and women because women would be more scared of sleeping around and cheating. Also, I think that men would probably be more cautious about it too because MTP would mean they’d end up being more responsible for children they produced with random women.


  329. Doug

    There really does seem to be something to Michelle Langley’s theory (taken from some in socio biology / evo psych) that women tend to have a four year period of strongly bonding with a man they fall deeply in love with, but thereafter it’s often much weakened, and especially if she has a high sex drive, she’s likely to look for her next attractive man, who’s attraction to her renews her sense of special female worth.

    Consider how long Hollywood alpha male marriages last, particularly to celebrity equals or near equals.

    Ya, I prefer the realists attitude as well, and tend to try to have it sit well with my personal emotional attitudes.

    Women are what they are. Rented.


  330. kim–

    Something tells me that a lot of people on here who support mandatory paternity testing also disapprove of legal abortions…but that’s just a guess.

    I support abortions. Enthusiastically. (So btw does Roissy.) I think there should be a lot more of them. I think an infant should only be brought into the world when both bio parents want to have and raise that child.

    I’m so in favor of abortion rights that I think men should have them too. No, not the right to order a woman under the knife (really in most cases the suction device). Instead the right to abort his obligation to support the child (in a timely manner the woman can take into account in making her own decisions), but with that all rights of visitation or otherwise of parenthood if she goes forward and births the infant and doesn’t give it up of adoption.

    Anyway, I personally just don’t think that mandatory paternity testing would really help make society a better place. I get what people are saying about it and why they think it’s a good idea…but it just seems a bit radical to me. Like someone above mentioned…guilty until proven innocent doesn’t seem fair to me.

    Et tu Brute? I’m really disappointed in you for that Kim, truly. I though you could put yourself into a man’s position better than that, as so many men try to do with women. *sigh*

    It would be a better place for a lot of men. Is that completely unimportant to you?

    It would also make a lot of women more careful — both in deciding to have and affair and in being careless, or even subconsciously excited, about getting pregnant if she does. (Of course if theirs is one of the tiny minority of true willing cuckold relationships that extend to “pregnancy play” or intentions, that’s fully consensual. Just covering all the bases here.)

    Requiring paternity tests of all women SELF EVIDENTLY DOES NOT assume that all married women are guilty of both cheating and doing it in a manner that allows a real possibility of having gotten pregnant that way. Instead it assumes that some percentage of women fall into this category, and that in some of those cases that will have occurred, and that their husband ought to be able to find out. That later assumption is in fact not that, but a FACT.

    So the whole stated basis for your objection is totally bogus.


  331. Chuck, its unwanted touching if my dick or wallet has touched the seed of another man and not known it wasn’t my own.


  332. Guys, it is basically a waste of time arguing with females about the evils of false paternity attribution. They are your enemies on this issue; they really cannot help themselves. The best they will ever do is grant that cheating a man in this way is sort of bad, then say, “Yes, but…”
    Just get testing the done. You do not need a womans permission. Besides, the brave new world of genetic-based medicine will solve the problem automatically, with or without female approval.
    One reason that mandatory testing will prevail is that women obviously do not know who the father is in many cases so what is the point of asking them? It is just stupid to even ask them.


  333. O,they all are. The scenese are 3-4 hours long. They might get 1-2 orgasms right away, but the rest is fuck-fuck-fuck-pause-pause–bang-bang-bang….. you cut 3 hours down to 20 minutes, and nothing there is real.


  334. on May 12, 2009 at 6:59 pm michael farris

    MPT would only work if women could call in suspected ‘real’ fathers to be tested (and a man found responsible for a married woman’s pregnancy was forced to pay support for the child instead of the husband).

    Men basically have very low standards about casual sex partners (and unrealistic ones toward wives) and women have different standards for casual sex partners vs husbands. You’ve gotta crack down on both or neither.


  335. on May 12, 2009 at 7:02 pm Let fury have the hour!

    “A universal criticism of men has become their emotional withdrawal, their inability to convey their emotions, their inability to communicate and that they are not good at expressing their feelings. The assumption being made is that the feelings men are suppressing are supposed to be nice feelings and are not to be held back. That assumption is derived from liberated women’s egocentric premise that men should automatically be an unconditional source of good feelings at convenience instead of being independent entities. The feelings he’s not communicating are supposed be nice because that’s what would be useful for other people. That’s an erroneous assumption. It’s my observation that the nation should encourage this condition of emotional repression and pray to whatever deity is currently in vogue that it continue. If the serious men in this country began to regain their capacity for indignation and express the backlog of barely-controlled wrath they are repressing, there is likely to be an all-out civil war.” You ever read this guy Kocher? http://members.mountain.net/theanalyticpapers/polam13.htm


  336. Michale, jigga wha?

    Women can sue for paternity/child support now, so your issue is moot. What we’re talking about here is a father not being sold into slavery.

    “You’ve gotta crack down on both or neither.”
    —A cheating whore is worse than a man who cheats. This “equality” bullshit is just that: bullshit.


  337. Kim
    Yea, you hit on another very important point which again, is interestingly sidestepped by the feminists-MPT would greatly cool out the deadbeat daddy issue, by ensuring beyond a shadow of a doubt that so and so IS the baby daddy and as such he’s gotta pay. I mean, there’s really no logical, rational reason as to why a Woman wouldn’t want MPT-its good for the child.

    Again, I fail to see your connection btw pro MPT supporters, and their views one way or another wrt Abortion. Please explain?

    O


  338. Doug

    Et tu Brute? I’m really disappointed in you for that Kim, truly. I though you could put yourself into a man’s position better than that, as so many men try to do with women. *sigh*

    Ha! Oh, to be naive again. I almost miss it.

    Women do not think as men do. They think emotionally and for purely selfish ends. When they appear to act socially, it is in the better interest of their groups, often womens groups.

    They have no use for truth. They can’t use truth, when emotions are involved.

    I know of no exceptions that are worth fucking.


  339. Tood:
    “This was true in India as well, until recently. They were virgins at marriage, and cheating was just very hard to logistically execute, and too risky if caught. Period.

    Sure, you know more about it than people who actually lived there.”

    I haven’t lived there myself, but I’ve heard numerous accounts of cheating from people who did in the 30s and 40s. Yes, many were virgins at marriage, but many were married at 12 or 13 (some as early as 9). And since when have logistics gotten in the way of libido?


  340. “And since when have logistics gotten in the way of libido?”
    –when the consequences (pregnancy, societal condemnation, loss of finances) outweighed the benefits.


  341. Doug,

    Hey now. I said that I get it. I just think getting the government involved in stuff like this isn’t helpful. I feel the same way about child support. The government is involved in too much already, but unfortunately most people in this world are irresponsible fucks who ruin it for everyone and then require the government to step in to make things “fair.”

    I also am glad you support abortions. I feel the exact same way…that in most cases a child would be better off not being born than being born into some sort of destructive unloving situation or being born and put into an orphanage.


  342. POS:
    although I enjoy your hypertensive histrionics,

    funny, you don’t sound like you enjoy it.

    I fear it interferes with your comprehension.

    braced for your backpedal, i am.

    -my concern is for the loneliness of men who can not trust (ie. Roissy’s campfire here), not for betas.

    anony you have lost all perspective. my words must have shaken you to your core. the kind of men who trust women the least are the same kind of men who rarely go without the company of women.
    mull it over.

    -I share your contempt of cheating and cuckholding women

    your shucking and jiving on this subject says otherwise.

    -MPT would presume guilt until proven innocence; a toxic presumption.

    what do you think a marriage contract is but a presumption of “guilt” that one or the other partner may pack up and leave on the slightest pretext?
    yet there is nothing inherently toxic about taking marital vows (or at least there wasn’t until recent history). it doesn’t destroy “trust in the state” to agree to its legally binding conditions.
    although, destroying some trust in the state wouldn’t be a bad thing for the USA at this time.

    DNA testing may be easy, but mandating it would destroy trust of women by the state.

    government mandates lots of things that hinder this amorphous “trust” you blather on about in a transparently feeble effort to find some loophole with which you can escape the serious reduction of your ovarian power that MPT threatens to bring.
    for instance, the state mandates that teenagers have to take a driver’s exam to earn a license to drive. this is an aknowledgement by the state of a lack of trust in teenagers’ self-taught driving skills. do you think driver’s tests are a “toxic presumption”?

    put simply, “but don’t you TRUST me??” is not a legitimate line of argument. and judging by your hostility to MPT on this humble blog, any state distrust of women may not be misplaced.

    -”trust but verify” really means “no trust” in the context of an intimate long-term commitment.

    you can bitch all you want but you can’t deny it worked to bring down the soviet empire.
    and really, isn’t that your main beef? that MPT will work as intended? by which i mean, it will work to remove an unfair mating market advantage that women currently possess.

    -I, and I suspect most women, would support a cuckholded beta to demand recompense for misappropriated paternity.

    MPT at birth would save so much time and energy, not to mention the psychological sanity of the parties involved.
    but if it’s recompense you support, you should be prepared for what exactly that entails. 18 years is a LOT of backpay the whore is gonna owe her cuckolded hubbie.

    somehow i doubt that when the MPT rubber hits the road and the lawyers are clamoring for restitution to the cuckolds that would nearly impoverish the whore mothers who dragged them into their web of lies for years, you’ll be at the forefront of the MPT movement cheering the handover of your gender’s power.


  343. Rum

    Rum

    Guys, it is basically a waste of time arguing with females about the evils of false paternity attribution. They are your enemies on this issue; they really cannot help themselves.

    A breath of fresh air. Thanks.

    I don’t understand why MEN are arguing for the state to help them to obtain a paternity test.

    I need a beer. Hey, state, get me a beer.


  344. When just seeking the truth could change your life in dramatic and irreversible ways, it’s best to start not by actually doing something but by inviting each possible truth into your imagination as fact.

    I think she means something along the lines of, “Don’t ask questions to which you’re not ready to hear the answer”. Which I think is good advice in general. Prepare yourself for the worst so that you’re not so overwhelmingly surprised by the answer that you blow your brains out upon groking it.

    Of course I agree with you on what the guy should do.


  345. Obsidian,

    I guess basically…I feel that if MTP ever came about that abortions would most likely be made illegal. It just seems like a government that would implement that would also take away legal abortions. Meaning…a lot more unwanted children, but hey, at least they know who their parents are, even if they don’t actually want them.

    Obviously there is no way to prove that because I doubt any sort of research has been done between the two…but I’m sure someone on here will be able to find some mysterious statistic somewhere.


  346. kim, that is simply not logical; that is feminist bullshit to the extreme.

    I hate abortion. i want it made illegal. i want doctors and women who get abortions to be thrown in prisons. But this has no relation to that at all. That you can’t draw any sense of a connection between the two betrays your feminist fear that cheating whores will be right castigated for being cheating whores, and left in the penniless destitution they so richly deserve.

    This is Kim’s last salvo—she’s reaching out to Roissy and other pro-abortion guys to try to prevent their rising up.

    Thye’re too smart for thsi bait. And so am I.


  347. xplat I read on newscientist.com that for some women the pill causes PERMANENT loss of libido.

    could this have happened to me :shock: maybe this is why I only like the lick?

    @Mu- I don’t want to hyjack the thread but I will say india, sometimes sky blue and the other petite girl like india, i think her name starts with an L or something.


  348. aliasclio–

    I don’t think that any of this is fair to men, mind you. I’d stop it if I could do so by fiat, and I would definitely tell that Post columnist to take a hike. In fact, I will do so, just to prove that I do in fact support men in this situation.

    Part of the reason you’re so beloved by many, and respected by all, who’ve read you enough here and/or at your own sites to have a good idea who you are (I mean aside from being hot and real smart) is that you’re so genuinely fair minded including towards men. We aren’t used to it. (That’s different from always agreeing with you. The point is it’s clear that that’s your effort.)

    The reason compulsory paternity testing won’t ever be imposed (I think), is that it isn’t in the state’s interest to impose it. What if the baby turned out not to be related to his “legal” father but his mother couldn’t or wouldn’t name the biological father? Or the biological father refused to be tested? The state would then be stuck with the child-support costs.

    In the US many states currently makes it very, very hard for woman to collect welfare unless they name all possible fathers. They could do the same in cases where she was married when she conceived by a man not her husband.

    As well, only a small minority of such cases would present for welfare.


  349. on May 12, 2009 at 7:20 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””””””on May 12, 2009 at 4:06 pm cptnapalm
    Any man who the state says is the father, is the father. Upon birth, said man shall be sentenced to 18 years in prison in a jury-less trial. The state will make up an arbitrary amount of money to be paid by said man to the woman who says he is the father of her child. This amount can be changed at any time, for any reason, up to any amount. Should the said man make his arbitrary payments on schedule, for that month he shall be allowed on furlough.””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Holy fuck that is the way it is. That is current child support.
    Fucking amazing.


  350. Chode, i mean “Toad”:

    “Oooooh. Bitchy little Chucky is getting prissy..

    1) Mao and Stalin were LEFT-wing. No hemming and hawing, they were left-wing, period.

    2) Hitler was left-wing. I showed you proof. You did not like it, so you ignored it.”

    The first sums up my thought about left/right wing ideology and how the totalitarian dictators of this century fit into it.

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/easy-living-fueling-left-wing-extremism-us-says/#comment-68799

    I dont’ want to bog this thread down with long orations about political ideology.

    Hitler was a populist totalitarian. He espoused programs were counter to the status quo under the Weimar republic at the time of his ascension, which included what was viewed as a raw deal in the aftermath of WWI mixed with rampant hyperinflation and economic strife. He preached whatever he could to seize power, unfortunately, the biggest draw to his rhetoric was his blame for Germany’s woes on the Jews.

    Hitler had things in common with socialists, but he also had things in common with fascist right wingers like Mussolini. He was for corporatism (favoritism in industry). Hitler also favored a traditional national identity which is very similar to some of the ideas espoused by conservatives and right wingers today.

    And here is your contribution to the discussion, a link to some dude standing against a wall putting in his 2 cents. Wikipedia is a better source than this shit:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/easy-living-fueling-left-wing-extremism-us-says/#comment-67019


  351. on May 12, 2009 at 7:21 pm Gunslingergregi

    To go through that because of a womans lie to amazing to believe.


  352. POS:
    MPT would be an egregious slap at almost all women. We don’t want to be treated with such distrust and lack of respect.

    talk about giving the game away. busted!

    ps if you have nothing to hide then you won’t have a problem with a state-mandated paternity test.

    pps respect must be earned.

    ppps cunt.


  353. lol lurker, what are you talking about? MTP and anti-abortion would both go under the category of “anti-women’s rights,” obviously. Is it really THAT hard to see the connection?

    “she’s reaching out to Roissy and other pro-abortion guys to try to prevent their rising up”

    huh? who’s rising up? pro-MTP campaigners? let’s be honest here, MTP is something people can wish for all they want but it’ll never happen. It doesn’t matter whether I support it or not, there is no way that would ever be passed in the US or any Western civilization. Sorry.


  354. sorry, MPT**


  355. Kim,
    W/all due respect your above remark is illogical. How does abortion rates, one way or another, have anything to do at all w/MPT? Indeed, if anything, the abortion rate may go UP in the face of widespread MPT, not down. I fail to see your argument. Please clarify and elaborate?

    O


  356. xsplat I don’t understand why MEN are arguing for the state to help them to obtain a paternity test.

    I need a beer. Hey, state, get me a beer.
    for some people debate is thrilling, even when it’s for something very trival.


  357. on May 12, 2009 at 7:23 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””””Roissy,
    No. If it was a hospital error, then the wife should be equally pleased as her husband to know the truth. Their marriage would remain strong, or at least viable, as they made arrangements with the hospital to find their true baby and swap kids with the other victimized family who mistakenly got their kid.”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    This is how the mandatory law gets passed. It is for the children to make sure they go with the right parents when they leave hospital.

    Keep chanting.

    It is for the children
    It is for the children
    It is for the children
    It is for the children
    It is for the children
    It is for the children
    It is for the children

    Should get it passed.


  358. kim:
    “MTP and anti-abortion would both go under the category of “anti-women’s rights,”
    —-lol. only a woman would think that being forced to admit she’s a cheating whore and not lying to a man to get him to pay for a child not his would think that is a violation of *her* rights.

    Dear feminazi, I thought this was for *the children.*

    “MTP is something people can wish for all they want but it’ll never happen”
    —feminist attempt at demoralization. O, this is why we must fight!


  359. it’s better when betas pay child support payments to cheating cunt wives

    better than me, via taxes and welfare

    betas are cannon fodder

    drones


  360. Brief, humorous conversation I just had at work:

    Went for a smoke and was chatting with this older, black dude. Told him the story of the guy that wound up having to pay child support to the guy that was having sex with his wife.

    His response: “I love my wife, but you cannot trust a woman. They are evil.”


  361. Xsplat, to make the situations equivalent, the government would have to require you to pay for the beer whether you drank it or not.


  362. doug1:

    fwiw, here’s what I said, i think you misread it.

    ” wonder how long it is before our “masculinity movement” turns into a slightly higher T-leveled feminist movement, complete with shirllness.”

    i was saying that i don’t want some kind of men’s movement to resemble just a response to the feminist movement, in that i don’t want to take the same tactics they have used in order to hijack society.

    the feminist movement’s strongest weapon was to paint women as the victim, but as anyone who knows anything about women, their victimization has long been overblown. T aka Ricky Raw linked to Chinweizu’s book called “Anatomy of Female Power” and Warren Farrel wrote a book in the early 1990s called “The Myth of Male Power”.

    I think it’s no shock that the pioneers of feminism and the most ardent supporters of it today are the women who would have no ability to “control” men through the institutions of cradle, womb, and kitchen that Chinweizu discusses. Feminists are either ugly or lesbian which would decrease their ability to wield power. (Ok, to test this theory, Roissy should post pictures of Women’s Studies majors to test their attractiveness…guaranteed they will be 2+ points lower on the attractiveness scale).

    Since these women could not gain power through traditional means, they had to convince other women, some men, and the courts to grant them power. The shit has been bastardized ever since.


  363. I must say, that the level of angst on the part of quite a few lady members of the forum, is quite fascinating to take note of. Interesting.

    Kim, I wouldn’t be so sure about “MPT never happening”. We said the same thing about the Wall coming down in Berlin, that happened; we used to say that a Black Man could never be President of the United States, that’s happened, and so on. MPT WILL happen, simply because the means and demand is there. As has been previously noted, home test kits are already widely available.

    And besides, whether or the State is concerned about being stuck with the bill is irrelevant, since Women are fully self supporting now, yes? So again, what’s the problem here? Please explain, clarify and elaborate?

    O


  364. Obsidian,

    It’s not so much about rates as it is about legislation. Like I said, there is no way to prove it, but in my opinion, it seems like a government that would pass MPT would also ban legal abortion. How it would affect the rates, I don’t know?


  365. Gunslingergregi, very good idea. Women have no sense of justice, but they have every sense of empathy for kids. Well, sometimes.


  366. Captain Searing Pain

    His response: “I love my wife, but you cannot trust a woman. They are evil.”

    Another window letting in the light and fresh sea breeses. Devilish whores, all of them. No matter how much they are in love with you, and no matter what their upbringing, or how religious. Its in their dna.


  367. off topic- kim I like your tumblar

    on topic: Lurker are you Catholic?

    Kim, I think you may be on to something about some men prolife men being for MPT.


  368. O, don’t be unfair, you’re makign a woman explain her logic?

    “We said the same thing about the Wall coming down in Berlin, that happened; we used to say that a Black Man could never be President of the United States, that’s happened, and so on.”

    —yes, note who said those things: liberals. Liberals always believe in the existence, always, of communism, racism, sexism. Hence why Kim has to see sexism/anti-woman in this, as opposed to pro-men/pro-child: because that’s all she knows.

    It’s like asking a puppy to read shakespeare when you ask her to explain herself.


  369. Kim

    MTP is something people can wish for all they want but it’ll never happen. It doesn’t matter whether I support it or not, there is no way that would ever be passed in the US or any Western civilization. Sorry.

    Utter rubbish.

    Of course it could be passed.

    No the mood isn’t there right now to pass it, but that hardly means that can’t change.


  370. kim is busted.

    anony is terrible. What a horrid monster.

    It is funny how many women are refusing to stand up and say that it is wrong for a man to pay if the child is not his, and his trust has been betrayed.

    Women are truly lacking in moral fiber.

    Islam….Islam…..Islam…..


  371. kim “MTP is something people can wish for all they want but it’ll never happen”

    *puts hand on kim’s shoulder*
    my queen, never doubt what people can do when they come together, the civil rights movement, women’s movement and elderly people with money collecting social security Medicare. If enough men get togeather, they can make a change.


  372. Me? Yes I am, Chuck. But banning of abortion desire comes from science, not religion. Roissy’s an atheist. We both agree.


  373. Xsplat — Mongolia was around the 12th Century, Ghenghis’ time, the ruler of pretty much the known World, from Poland east to China, from Iraq to Siberia and into India.

    The inability to sustain the Mongol Empire and keep pace with technology was part and parcel of nearly all the descendants of Mongols being Ghenghis Khan.

    Think: Genetic Bottleneck. If Khan is the only one making babies, only his genes get expressed later in generation after generation. Which means valuable genes for abstract thinking, like say, how to adapt Mongol ponies and mobility to challenges from outsiders, in places where the Mongol composite bow just is not effective, are simply lacking.

    Europe in the 1100′s was the same as Mongolia, in terms of literacy, achievement, and so on. Because most men in Europe under enforced monogamy reproduced, there was no genetic bottleneck and genes that were favorable for say, taking Chinese wooden block printing and creating the same with moveable type with lead, or improving constantly firearms, got expressed. Icky Darwinism but there you have it — the larger the gene pool the more likely favorable genes will get expressed. Since you never know what will turn up.

    Female paradises of lots of Alpha men tend to be poor, violent, and stable, in that they last forever, but are often conquered. Guys like Shaka Zulu, Nebuchadnezzer, Xerxes, and Khan can create a basic pattern that lasts but their descendants tend to be conquered by cooperative beta men.

    As for geeks, enjoy their fruits now. There will be few geeks after them, because geeks do POORLY in the marketplace, women avoid having kids with them like the plague, preferring guys lke Roissy. Who aren’t going to invent new ways to cure cancer or produce energy.

    Unless forced to, women will never mate with geeky guys.


  374. So again, what’s the problem here? Please explain, clarify and elaborate?

    No chance. You are asking a Westernized woman to not be a hypocrite. Impossible. See how much of a total failure feminism is?

    No straight answer will be forthcoming from kim.


  375. Lurker,
    I never said this was for the children. It’s about the government wanting to know more than they need to.

    Obsidian,
    Those things you listed are all movements in a progressive direction. MPT would be a huge step backwards. MPT is like something out of Orwell’s 1984.


  376. Chic, not chuck.

    But I love how women try to twist MPT into abortion—again, with no logic—to drive a wedge here. isn’t that just like a woman?


  377. Lurker

    Xsplat, to make the situations equivalent, the government would have to require you to pay for the beer whether you drank it or not.

    It seems your drunk instead of me, for a change.

    WTF? It’s only a few bucks. Get it done yourself. You don’t need anyones permission. Just do it. What on earth does any government agency have to do with it?

    And as regards to the state extracting welfare and child support, get a passport.

    People are talking about reforming a broken system. More power to you, but it seems silly to me. Just get and use your passport.


  378. “It’s about the government wanting to know more than they need to.”

    —the father needs to know, as does the government. By your twisted feminist logic, they shouldn’t know the names of the parents either.

    The government needs to know who the parents are so they know whom to send the bill to.


  379. Kim,
    Again, I don’t follow your logic because I fail to see the linakge btw MPT and Abortion, one way or another. As far as I see it they are two completely different issues, and should be viewed in that context. However, if one wants to make a case for the role Abortion could play in the case of widespread MPT, one could plausibly argue that if anything, Abortion rates would likely go up, since a potentially cheating spouse knows she is likely to be found out if she carries a suspect pregnancy to term. Since married Women already have the right to abort w/o the knowledge or permission of their hubbies in any event, again I fail to see what the problem is here.

    I remain somewhat in a fog as to the clarity of your argument. I need more clarification, please?

    O


  380. xsplat, not the cost here. Its that many betas are too timid or fooled to do it. A required MPT would break many men of their weird worship of women. And force sluts into poverty.


  381. on May 12, 2009 at 7:44 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””””””””Chic Noir
    The fact that a few men are throwing around rape with ease makes me wonder whose really reading this blog?”””””””””””””””””””””

    False accusations of rape happen too often. Lies from woman about life changeing events for men happen too often. We need solid lie dtector tests for these woman when they are accusing someone of anything. (sexual harrassment,rape,stealing, cuckhold) Anything.


  382. O, no fair, you’re using logic to bash her pretty little whorish skull in!


  383. kim wrote :

    Those things you listed are all movements in a progressive direction. MPT would be a huge step backwards. MPT is like something out of Orwell’s 1984.

    It seems you don’t care about men’s rights at all. You are just as bad as Southern KKK whites who subjected blacks to Jim Crow laws.

    I suppose you oppose men secretly getting the DNA test done on the kid that is supposedly theirs too?


  384. clio:
    The reason compulsory paternity testing won’t ever be imposed (I think), is that it isn’t in the state’s interest to impose it.

    the state is the fist of the public. if enough of the public decides that MPT is in its interest, then it will be in the state’s interest by default.
    but in the narrow sense, you may have a point. it is in the state’s interest to keep beta males married and working to the bone chained to the machinery of society to support their families even if it means said betas live under the cloud of a great lie. what’s the truth to a few individuals when the glorious collective of big brother needs their sacrifice?

    What if the baby turned out not to be related to his “legal” father but his mother couldn’t or wouldn’t name the biological father?

    wouldn’t? the man is immediately freed of all obligations to her or the bastard.
    couldn’t? same as above. sucks to be her! oh well, i guess she should have thought it through before auditioning for the part of town orifice.

    Or the biological father refused to be tested?

    see above. again, if the whore wants to avoid a situation where the man whom she fingers as the biological father refuses to get tested, she should have thought of that potential fallout before spreading her legs.
    ultimately, what you cannot get away from, despite your best efforts, is the fact that a woman cheating on her husband and conceiving a child by another man is wholly responsible for the world of shit she puts herself in.
    the government, the beta chump, the universe, is not going to relieve her of moral and practical culpability.

    otoh, if you prefer that the state continues to treat women like children, then perhaps we can extend this paternal magnanimity to women’s right to vote and let the grownups vote for them?

    The state would then be stuck with the child-support costs.

    this is where you let your religious impulse get the best of you.
    the only one who should get stuck with anything is the whore. if the kid suffers because she is an unfit mother of few resources, well… tough shit. cull the herd.

    I don’t think that any of this is fair to men, mind you.

    coulda fooled me.

    I’d stop it if I could do so by fiat, and I would definitely tell that Post columnist to take a hike. In fact, I will do so, just to prove that I do in fact support men in this situation.

    you’ll be too nice about it. now my method, while i’m under no pretense that it will change minds, sure does fill me with a warm glow!


  385. Tood

    No chance. You are asking a Westernized woman to not be a hypocrite.

    Tood – you make the same mistake feminists do. Attributing to culture what is genetic.

    Women of all cultures are hypocrites. Much more so in non western cultures.

    I know it’s hard, guys. I know its very difficult. Women are not like us. At all. They don’t think like we do. They only pretend to do that.


  386. Yes, tood. Don’t you knwo women never lie?


  387. Kim–

    Even if Mandatory Paternity Testing doesn’t happen anytime soon, I think it becoming a common practice among men to get such testing done IS likely.

    is there any man on this board who’s read Roissy’s post and the comments today who WOULD’T get paternity testing done.

    Sure it’s a long shot she’s done that to you, being such an awesome man and all, but why not be sure? What if she did?

    Actually I strongly recommend that all men reading here casually mention to their serious girlfriends, and seriously talk with their wives or live in girlfriends that any pregnancy would of course be subject to such a test, just as a matter of your assertion of strong male rights.

    Well I’ve always had these talks. There’s the abortion talk. “You get mistakenly pregnant when we both haven’t agreed to raise a kid together before hand, both of us, that includes me, and you’ll get an abortion, right? No question about that, right?” I’ve never lived with a woman who hasn’t agreed in a convincing manner, or for that matter had any long term relationship with one.


  388. a government that would pass MPT would also ban legal abortion

    true. but the first is MUCH easier than the second. So I would rewrite your phrase as:
    ” a government that would try to pass MPT and also ban legal abortion, would achieve the first and fail in the second “


  389. Tood,

    Do you care about women’s rights? It sure doesn’t seem like it. I do care about men’s rights, but I don’t think that mandatory paternity testing is fair. That’s a simple invasion of privacy. YOU can never understand a woman’s perspective on this because you can’t give birth. Go ahead, quote that and then leave your “oh, the typical feminist argument” bullshit, but it’s completely true.


  390. lurker

    xsplat, not the cost here. Its that many betas are too timid or fooled to do it. A required MPT would break many men of their weird worship of women. And force sluts into poverty.

    And why would I care? I have no solidarity with the menz. Let the betas lose out, if they are too stupid to learn a clue.

    There is a reason why Alphas get the pussy, you know – and it is NOT because of thuggish behaviour, as Whiskey purports. It is greater social skills, combined with above average skills in manipulating materials and wealth. Or any number of above average skills – intelligence included. Art, science, music, writing. There are alphas in all of the worthwhile human persuits, and they get laid more than most.

    What do I care if such alphas fuck married women? I don’t. I’d do it myself, and sometime try to do that.


  391. Sorry, unfair*


  392. Okay, wow. Take back the “sorry, unfair*” I can’t read anymore and am just making myself look like an idiot …it’s almost 1 AM and I’m going to bed.


  393. Lurker But banning of abortion desire comes from science, not religion
    Kim MPT is like something out of Orwell’s 1984.
    Huh, you’ve thrown me with this. MPT isn’t government’s way of controlling a woman, it’s a man’s way of knowing if he is the dad or not. It’s allowing him his freedom to move on with his life if he is in fact not tied to you.

    But I love how women try to twist MPT into abortion—again, with no logic—to drive a wedge here. isn’t that just like a woman?
    Not really, some men will see MPT and abortion as issues linked. I’m for mpt and pro choice. Anyway, MPT is good just in the instance the child has any type of genetic disorders.

    xsplat WTF? It’s only a few bucks. Get it done yourself. You don’t need anyones permission. Just do it. What on earth does any government agency have to do with it?
    It like welfare mothers suing the government for not receiving enough benefits when they had the option to terminate or use bc like every other female.


  394. chuck:
    comparing cuckolding to the male version of rape is a bad characterization. its obviously more akin to thievery or robbery,

    rape is thievery of a woman’s womb.
    cuckoldry is thievery of a man’s resources and life.

    the integrity of a woman’s womb is as precious to her as the lifeyears remaining and the accumulation of resources are to him.

    hence, why i believe it is a valid comparison.


  395. For a man, a big part of the thrill of having kids is actually having sex with the said hot woman and essentially colonizing her body for nine months.

    I must admit that I enjoyed telling the mistress that I’d knock her up and she’d have my little mulatto kids. There’s something inherently masculine about that, and I’d imagine submitting to letting some guy dump his sperm in you is submissive and very feminine. As seen from websites dealing with the topic, some men (and women) do have an impregnation fetish.

    The ones who were worthless whores would end up giving up the kids to adoption, which is probably better than living with a skank mom.

    Given that there’s no market for black children, I’d wonder if it’s better to have the kids live with mom who is more likely to love them than in foster care or in orphanages.

    Sex-bots and artificial wombs? The bottom would fall out of the beta male provider supply.

    The problem is that artificial wombs and sex-bots aren’t mother replacements.

    Actually, it would lead to far fewer divorces, 70% of which are initiated by women, and nearly all of them in marriages with infants or young children. It would also lead many women to be more careful about who they marry.

    Of course, the unintended consequence is that women may not even give a beta male a chance for marriage, and stick to single motherhood to avoid even dealing with a beta male. Plus, quite frankly, I’m not interested in living with a woman who doesn’t love me, but only stays around because she can’t get child support. At that point, I’d pay her to go away and leave me alone than to continue the insulting fake marriage.

    Infidelity used to be way lower in fact.

    I suspect we were much better at hiding it.

    but for me I would much rather be sent to prison and anally raped than have my wife cheat on me and bear another man’s child

    From what my brother and cousin have noted about their stays in prison, I’d rather have my wife cheat on me. There’s still more freedom in a cuckold marriage than in any prison.


  396. Sad thing is I live next to a guy who got cuckolded. The poor sod was dutiful to his wife’s child for 18 years after which she left him and went on a cock merri-go-round.

    The worst thing is everyone seems to have known except him. I didn’t have the heart to collapse his world after I found out so I let him be in his beta universe……..


  397. on May 12, 2009 at 7:57 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””Jam,
    I did tell her about the paternity testing and punishment for infidelity (which will be the same that many here have advocated for cuckoldry, lol), though.”””””””””””””

    That is it no lawyers needed between you and your woman. Just some basic laws of whats up.


  398. kim That’s a simple invasion of privacy

    Which is no worse that having a 1/5 of your income stolen from you. Or having your emotions played with when you are 12 years into raising a child that isn’t yours.


  399. “some men will see MPT and abortion as issues linked.”
    —betas

    “What do I care if such alphas fuck married women?”
    —I care if cheating whores are taken care of and lauded. They ought to be dragged low in the dirt.

    “MPT isn’t government’s way of controlling a woman, it’s a man’s way of knowing if he is the dad or not. It’s allowing him his freedom to move on with his life if he is in fact not tied to you.”
    —Don;t you understand that a feminist sees everything as part of her body when convenient? When the child is removed from the womb, tis still her body. When it goes to college,s till hers. Feminists are delusional.


  400. “That’s a simple invasion of privacy.”

    Who’s privacy is being violated. She’s named him the dad, so according to her, it is his kid. He is not getting any DNA from her at all. Just him and his kid. She is not involved at all. Who’s privacy is being violated?


  401. kim squeaked :

    YOU can never understand a woman’s perspective on this because you can’t give birth.

    YOU, as a woman, cannot understand what it is like to be cuckolded. So far, you are on par with Southern White racists of the KKK in their treatment of blacks. You are trying to excuse the subjugation of men.

    You didn’t answer the question :

    Do you oppose men secretly getting the DNA test done on the kid that is supposedly theirs too?

    Answer it, bitch.


  402. Dave from Hawaii

    Chicnoir: I predict that this comment box will reach 900 comments before 12 midnight. Wow, nothing gets men going like this topic.

    DfH: Sorta like the topic of rape with women, eh?

    Bullseye!!

    Hole in one.

    Home run with bases loaded.

    Kickoff Touchdown!


  403. I see the argument that Clio presents, ie the role of the State and its interests in preventing MPT from happening, is w/all due respect a logical fallacy; I say this because there have been and are today many charitable organizations that have and continue to help Women in trouble w/babies. The problem is that these organizations are almost always religious in nature, and impose their standards of judgment, morality and guilt upon those they serve, and rightly so-their souls need just as help as their bodies.

    What a lot of Women want is assistance w/o any rebuke or censure, someting I’m completely against. Shaming has proven highly effective for the female half of the species. Severe penalties coupled w/powerful shaming measures will serve to drastically reduce these problems.

    While I’m on my logical kick, let me address another logical fallacy:

    And this is the “numerical” argument.

    Some argue that, because Paternity Fraud is relatively low in terms of documented occurance, we shouldn’t be too concerned about it; yet many of the very same people who take this view will often turn around and say, that one rape is one rape too many, and so on. I only ask that those who take this position be consistent in heir application of logic and reason: the issue wrt rape isn’t about numerical occurance, but about the egregious nature of the crime, a blight on the whole of society. I say the same is true for Paternity Fraud.

    O


  404. O, sing it brutha.


  405. Roissy et al, I think you’re reading into that advice column things that aren’t there for the sake of your anti-cuckoldry agenda. From my interpretation of femspeak: It was a nice way by the columnist of saying ‘make your own decisions, fool, and since you sound like a nice guy beta, remember your delicate feelings and get other guys e.g. lawyers to do the asshole work for you. I’m not going to advocate anything illegal here’ in typical advice columnist language. Maybe I’m projecting.

    Still, this does promote the cause for social acceptability of paternity tests which would help remove the ‘presumed guilty’ argument if its commonly or routinely done. The figures speak loudly about the necessity for them and the lie in the trust given. I don’t see women losing from this: either it’s his whereas you get to play martyr and noble pure woman (oh, honey, aren’t I the best loyalest wife evar? And you doubted me?) or… it’s not his. We’ve had cases in medschool where the kids would accidentally discover it by their blood types. xsplat/doug: Yeah, 10% is the commonly quoted figure at me, and the lecturers love to go ‘well, there are 200 of you in this lecture theatre…’. Reducing the rate’s all well and good.

    I’ve rather become inured to the massive misognyism and there’s too much to tackle today but let me just say, I really need to see a woman scorned who’s actually anywhere near as angry as this for some perspective, because this is alarming.

    Also, this was well-timed after my own post; it must be some sort of anti-cuckoldry vibe this week or some such.

    xsplat: Although I’m skeptical, tell me any venues I’d find you so that I can avoid rather than test your ‘I can get any woman’ skills.

    lurker: it’d have to be a pious woman from any religion in a Western country. If you went to pick off a muslim girl from a muslim country then that would be more true, and she’d already be compromising on muslim morality by being near you (unless she was given away unwillingly by family; not very Islamic but I heard it happens). I don’t know if I’d be a best bet, actually. I wouldn’t cheat and am apparently strongly socially conditioned against it according to doug but I’m also not the model religious girl. 30%’s a shocking figure; one that was definitely not true where I came from. Thinking about where I came from, the penalties on a cheating wife… it doesn’t even bear thinking about it. I haven’t even heard of any such scenarios and they’re usually generous with the female sexuality horror stories.

    chic: Lie detector tests work?

    havana: I’m not surprised. I was limited to a mere 3 kids maximum by a Westerner in terms of suggested family size. There were some things about traditional good Catholicism…

    Rape vs. cuckoldry: Give it a rest. Cuckoldry is its own crime, while sharing things with rape, it can be worse in some ways. It has aspects of violation, gross betrayal, humiliation, emotional damage and genetic threat to it. To think everything’s ok and then to discover how you were lied to and for so long and regarding the most important part of a long-term relationship by the one person you thought you could trust or even have power over…

    The main point is that YES, it should be taken SERIOUSLY for MEN like RAPE is taken SERIOUSLY for WOMEN.


  406. Chic,
    I’m glad you like my tumblr. Also, I don’t see how MPT isn’t the government controlling a woman. And I agree, it isn’t fair for men to have to raise children that aren’t theirs. It seems like a lot of commenters on here want to have their prospective or current wives/mother’s of their children, engage in a paternity test, and that’s fine. It should be up to the couple, not mandatory by the government. If the woman doesn’t want to take part, then maybe they shouldn’t have children together.

    Tood,

    “So far, you are on par with Southern White racists of the KKK in their treatment of blacks”

    wtf are you talking about??????????????????

    If the man wants to do that on his own, that’s fine. I’m not saying paternity testing is wrong, I’m saying that making it mandatory is wrong. If a man and woman want to do that, then that’s just fine, if a man wants to go and do it on his own, then that’s fine too. That’s completely different from the government forcing it on everyone.


  407. Let me reiterate: the feminazi attempt to tie this to abortion will be a runnign theme in fighting this, if only to drive a wedge in the men’s movement on it. Be warned: it has nothing to do with abortion.


  408. kim

    I do care about men’s rights, but I don’t think that mandatory paternity testing is fair. That’s a simple invasion of privacy. [doug editing: You mean like mandatory syphilis testing, initiated primarily for women? YOU can never understand a woman’s perspective on this because you can’t give birth. Go ahead, quote that and then leave your “oh, the typical feminist argument” bullshit, but it’s completely true.

    What a complete crock of shit – the italicized part.

    Now you’re thoroughly pissing me off.

    It’s looking like I was massively wrong about you.

    Well maybe you are too tired. Still telling.

    We’ll see.


  409. Kim:
    “I don’t see how MPT isn’t the government controlling a woman.”
    —-You see. DNA testing a CHILD is controlling a WOMAN.

    Feminist logic at its finest.

    “It should be up to the couple, not mandatory by the government. ”
    —-If the government is going to force payment on someone, it is its duty to get it right.

    “I’m saying that making it mandatory is wrong.”
    –because my beta husband might find out why I get home so late….

    “That’s completely different from the government forcing it on everyone.”
    –when you bitches voluntarily give up child support and alimony, come talking to us, slut.


  410. but in the narrow sense, you may have a point. it is in the state’s interest to keep beta males married and working to the bone chained to the machinery of society to support their families even if it means said betas live under the cloud of a great lie. what’s the truth to a few individuals when the glorious collective of big brother needs their sacrifice?

    That’s the problem with entire system. Cuckoldry relies on the greater system in general of beta males being sacrificed to keep society moving. As I’ve stated on numerous occasions, beta males sacrifice themselves for third rate sex from women who don’t love them, and nearly all of their pay being handed over to their wives and children. Guys like Whiskey and novaseeker may paint the ancien regime as a perfect world for beta males, but given that we know of the potential sexuality of women and their lack of desire for betas, no regime gives beta males any benefit.

    Because most men in Europe under enforced monogamy reproduced, there was no genetic bottleneck

    The question is how did Europe get to point where there was no genetic bottleneck?

    Unless forced to, women will never mate with geeky guys.

    But why should geeks be punished with women who aren’t attracted to them?


  411. chic

    nothing gets women going like topics about the disparate effects of aging on men and women


  412. Kim, you paranoid delusional illogical bitch, go back to your womyn’s meeting, where this bullshit flows like wine.


  413. on May 12, 2009 at 8:15 pm michael farris

    “Roissy et al, I think you’re reading into that advice column things that aren’t there for the sake of your anti-cuckoldry agenda.”

    He has an anti-cuckoldry agenda? I thought he had an anti-being-cuckolded agenda that was pretty ….. unexamined. If he’s been with half as many women as he claims the chances that he hasn’t cuckolded a married man or six (or fathered a child or four being raised by one of the betas he so despises) is pretty remote.

    Basically, men can’t demand faithfulness from wives unless they demand faithfulness from themselves and other men (or openly support the creation of a prostitute/mistress class).

    Basically neither men nor women are biologically programmed for marital faithfulness and demanding higher standards from one than the other is …. foolish.


  414. when you bitches voluntarily give up child support and alimony, come talking to us, slut.

    Amen. I will say it as many times as necessary :

    Feminists are THE most hypocritical group in the world, bar none. More hypocritical than Palestinians, communists, Jesse Jackson, etc.

    Women haven’t really denied this accusation much either. They don’t mind being exposed as hypocrites.


  415. bhetti chic: Lie detector tests work?
    they range from about 70%- to 90% effectiveness.

    Roissy she fingers as the biological father refuses to get tested, she should have thought of that potential fallout before spreading her legs.
    Can’t buy it. Why should a man refuse to be tested? It doesn’t hurt. He may refuse because he doesn’t want to take responsibility. If you refuses to take, then he should be forced to pay child support.

    ultimately, what you cannot get away from, despite your best efforts, is the fact that a woman cheating on her husband and conceiving a child by another man is wholly responsible for the world of shit she puts herself in.
    the government, the beta chump, the universe, is not going to relieve her of moral and practical culpability

    But sometimes it’s not a cheating woman. It’s a woman in a relationship with a man who for whatever reason, decides she is no longer the flavor of the month. Therefore, he dumps woman and child to move on to someone new.

    Doug “You get mistakenly pregnant when we both haven’t agreed to raise a kid together before hand, both of us, that includes me, and you’ll get an abortion, right? No question about that, right?”
    I agree the two of you should talk it over before hand but beware. For some women, even the most prochoice, Mother Nature kicks in and they will carry the child no matter what. All of the previous thoughts and opinions go out the door.

    Lurker Don;t you understand that a feminist sees everything as part of her body when convenient?
    Don’t let my Charlie Brown theory fool you, I’m a bit of a feminist myself. I just believe that fair is fair.


  416. Roissy is a dreamer; he mentioned once in a post that a virgin girl is “sweet manna from heaven.” We would all love faithful, loving girl, its that women are not those images we’ve been taught to beleive in, but cunning, manipualtive whores.

    That said, Roissy wants to give us a wake up call, and release us from betahood, and under the thumb of women. A society ruled by men is always better. Hetakes our blinders off; he is a truth teller.


  417. on May 12, 2009 at 8:18 pm Tupac Chopra

    Doug:

    Part of the reason you’re so beloved by many, and respected by all, who’ve read you enough here and/or at your own sites to have a good idea who you are (I mean aside from being hot and real smart)

    Give it up Doug, she’s mine all mine.

    Seriously though, I think Clio and Whiskey would be a good match. A blogosphere power couple.


  418. Bhetti–

    xsplat: Although I’m skeptical, tell me any venues I’d find you so that I can avoid rather than test your ‘I can get any woman’ skills.

    You skepticism is more than merited, as you or anyone else will realize if they peruse his blog a bit. I could be real nasty but I guess I won’t be.


  419. “Basically, men can’t demand faithfulness from wives unless they demand faithfulness from themselves and other men (or openly support the creation of a prostitute/mistress class).”
    –lmao. what a beta bitch.

    Men and women are different.

    A cheating woman is worse than a cheating man.

    Welcome to enlightenment, kiddo.


  420. Michal

    Basically neither men nor women are biologically programmed for marital faithfulness and demanding higher standards from one than the other is …. foolish.

    A rat bastard after my own heart.

    Although, I do believe some small proportion of men and women tend towards monogamy and family life. It seems those same people have an impossibly difficult time understanding that they are not the norm.

    They are so intensely interested in enforcing their social norms. I don’t get it.

    Live and get fucked over, and get wise.


  421. Tupac–

    Give it up Doug, she’s mine all mine.

    Seriously though,

    LoL Tupac.

    I’m in the respect camp. Your (and Whiskey’s) coast is clear, re: me. Not trying to muscle in bro. (LoL)


  422. “they range from about 70%- to 90% effectiveness.”

    lol, no. lie detectors are notoriously unreliable. That’s why courts don’t accept them as evidence. try 50%, at best.

    Maury Povich notwithstanding.


  423. doug1

    Bhetti–

    xsplat: Although I’m skeptical, tell me any venues I’d find you so that I can avoid rather than test your ‘I can get any woman’ skills.

    You skepticism is more than merited, as you or anyone else will realize if they peruse his blog a bit. I could be real nasty but I guess I won’t be.

    You’d both be right to be skeptical of my exageration. But it was merely an exageration – not a falsehood. Religion is a weak barrier to seduction.

    And if you are in the mood to be nasty, Doug, go for it. Most of what I leave up on the blog I’m content with – so have at it.


  424. Kim

    You are doing great work convincing the men here – all of them – that talking to women about this is pointless. You keep saying, in one way or another, that only a fool would believe anything a woman says about true paternity and then you want to talk about what is “fair”?
    You must be a little drunk because you keep giving away the main female “secret-game-plan” without much prompting or pressure.


  425. kim It should be up to the couple, not mandatory by the government. If the woman doesn’t want to take part, then maybe they shouldn’t have children together.
    Who is the “they” that shouldn’t have children together.

    Hypothetically speaking, I can married to PA but decide that I want to sample MU on Tuesday and Whiskey on Wednesday followed by Roissy on Friday. There is nothing PA can do about it if I fall pregnant, nothing. He will be forced to wait on the side with the other three for the DNA results.

    bottom line, even after having a talk, it’s still the woman’s body to a make decision if and when she will have a child. The best thing men can do is use a condom in addition to male pill or vasectomy. I’m getting sick of hearing men say “she trapped me” anyway. Shit sounds very betaish.

    Lurker what’s up with the heavy name calling. If you don’t agree with kim fine you don’t agree. There is no need to call her everything but a child of God.


  426. I love the feminist trope about “invasion of privacy.” Nobody knows what it means, everyone has their own definition, and it sounds awful, but it has no basis in law or fact.

    Just like everythign else feminists say.


  427. on May 12, 2009 at 8:27 pm Marcus Aureliette

    kim:
    I do care about men’s rights, but I don’t think that mandatory paternity testing is fair. That’s a simple invasion of privacy. YOU can never understand a woman’s perspective on this because you can’t give birth.

    How is it any more an invasion of privacy than any other medical test done in the course of bringing a child to term? It’s in everyone’s best interest to have that data on the table, but let’s be honest: if a woman is, in fact, trying to pass off another man’s child as her unsuspecting husband’s, clearly the unsuspecting husband has far and away the most to lose by that deception. It is patently unfair that any man should get saddled with that responsibility, and if taking a simple test will spare that happening, how can you justify not testing?

    Also, just to be clear: being capable of giving birth has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand, and I say that as a fertile female.


  428. Kim is the typical illogical slut.

    Thats, that. Now about those MPT at CVS?


  429. m. farris:
    He has an anti-cuckoldry agenda? I thought he had an anti-being-cuckolded agenda that was pretty ….. unexamined. If he’s been with half as many women as he claims the chances that he hasn’t cuckolded a married man or six (or fathered a child or four being raised by one of the betas he so despises) is pretty remote.

    i’ve never claimed to be a good man. i have slept with married and taken women. in those cases, i was not informed of their marital or relationship status until after penis had crossed the plane of vagina. i can’t say i’ve never targeted a taken woman, (who can remember all their conquests? not i), but i can say with some confidence that i generally refrain from the practice. it’s not kosher.

    i can also tell you that none of the married women i banged insisted i wear a condom, not even on the first night.
    now why would that be?
    things that make you go hmm….


  430. on May 12, 2009 at 8:28 pm michael farris

    “Men and women are different.
    A cheating woman is worse than a cheating man.”

    Uh….. unless the man is gay or paying for it, a cheating man is often going to be cheating with a woman who’s also cheating. You can’t have horn dog alphas without having cheating women and pretending that Game can exist without cuckolded men in LTR’s or changeling children is just …. not realistic.


  431. “Lurker what’s up with the heavy name calling.”
    —women want to argue like men? Then grow some balls and get over it.

    “If you don’t agree with kim fine you don’t agree.”
    –I agree with nothing that no-good cunt has said.

    “There is no need to call her everything but a child of God.”
    —save your hand-holding and “no put downs” for kindergarten and the sewing circle; men insult, deal with it.


  432. “Uh….. unless the man is gay or paying for it, a cheating man is often going to be cheating with a woman who’s also cheating.”
    —Roissy’s post immediately above yours proves you wrong.

    “You can’t have horn dog alphas without having cheating women and pretending that Game can exist without cuckolded men in LTR’s or changeling children is just …. not realistic.”
    —wrong again, beta boy.


  433. Sorry, m. farris, I keep forgetting these fine distinctions suffered of ‘do not do unto me what I allow to be done to others’.

    I’m glad roissy tries to avoid it.

    roissy: Just to confirm for the general public, you DID wear a condom, anyway?


  434. Kim,
    I am also having trouble following your argument, that MPT is somehow tantamount to a rolling back on Women’s Rights-could you please specify, in what way? The Woman has chosen to carry the child to term and is indeed the mother, these facts are not in dispute; what *is*, is the putative father’s status as the de jure/de facto father. This is what daddy testing solves.

    Again, I am havin trouble following your arguments in opposition to MPT. I await a more thorough clarification of your views.

    O


  435. “it’s still the woman’s body to a make decision if and when she will have a child.”

    In that case, there will be no need for a paternity test as this logically eliminates all responsibility from men. After all, how can you have responsibilities for the decisions of someone else?


  436. O, you know how we ignore tokyojesus/contrarian, because he’s just a troll? Same rule applies with kim. She’s just spitting nonsense, and when called on it, she’ll spit it again.


  437. cptnapalm:
    “After all, how can you have responsibilities for the decisions of someone else?”
    —-you clearly have not read any feminist literature. Men are always at fault.


  438. on May 12, 2009 at 8:41 pm michael farris

    “Roissy’s post immediately above yours proves you wrong.”

    You mean the one where he admits he’s had sex with married women (with no condom) and shown no concern about or interest in the possible children that resulted (and who will, if they’re lucky, never know he existed? That post?

    Listen I’m sympathetic to the human condition and the very different sexual interests of men and women. I just don’t have much sympathy for willful ignorance and it takes willful ignorance to simultaneously favor sexual freedom for men (the essence of ‘game’) and want monogamy from the women one is in a LTR with.

    Basically, if men want absolute monogamy from wives then they’re going have to get used to the idea that a) they’re not gonna get any till they’re married of b) they’re gonna get nailed for child support if their wild oats can be traced to them (unless there’s an open prostitute class which is problematic in lots of ways).


  439. Bhetti, my love, when is our wedding, dearie?


  440. schoolboy

    Kim is the typical illogical slut.

    Thats, that. Now about those MPT at CVS?

    Consider this as friendly advice from an uncle you like. It’s not intended as a diss.

    Don’t call Kim a slut. She probably isn’t. Doesn’t sound like one. In fact she sounds very much not like one. So if so, she’s coming from a very different place than you’ve announced.

    So calling her a slut if I’m right (and I tend to be on these kind of things) is very counter productive with her. It might get you some street cred with with lowest common denominator of men, but what is that really worth? It’s easy to get in much better ways.

    Illogical yes. Actually she often hasn’t been. But she sure was lately, especially not long before signing off.

    Rolling that around in your mind and saying something that gets at it is far more powerful.

    Just some friendly thoughts.


  441. I don’t even see what all the heat is about here. Women, if you’ve got nothing to hide, all a paternity test does is pay for a little domestic peace of mind.

    Guys, if you’re either practically or ideologically concerned about it, you can get it done pretty cheap on your own.

    As for the State, it cares about none of you. It exists to serve its own ends.


  442. “You mean the one where he admits he’s had sex with married women (with no condom) and shown no concern about or interest in the possible children that resulted (and who will, if they’re lucky, never know he existed? That post?”
    —yes, beta, the one where didn’t know she was married and avoids having sex with women he knows are taken. There are plenty of sluts out there he bangs who aren’t married.

    “I just don’t have much sympathy for willful ignorance and it takes willful ignorance to simultaneously favor sexual freedom for men (the essence of ‘game’) and want monogamy from the women one is in a LTR with.”
    —Well, as I stated, many here would be satisified with a faithful, loving virgin who acts like a submissive woman.

    And, as stated, those who would not are spreading their seed; cheating women are forcing men to rtaise a child not their own. One is a good natural instinct, the other is not.

    “if men want absolute monogamy from wives then they’re going have to get used to the idea that a) they’re not gonna get any till they’re married.”
    —moron. men here don’t want monogomaous gfs, they just want to bang. Men who want to get married want monogomous wives, which are rarer than they protray themselves.


  443. doug1, are you insane:

    “Don’t call Kim a slut. She probably isn’t. Doesn’t sound like one. In fact she sounds very much not like one.”

    —yes, she just wants to deny men the right to not pay for a child not theirs and allow a cheating wife to live high on his hog and spread her legs. Also, she wants to lie and somehow bizarrely claim this is related to *her* privacy or abortion.

    The onyl women that panicky that we’re in favor it? Sluts.

    “So calling her a slut if I’m right (and I tend to be on these kind of things) is very counter productive with her. ”
    —logic is counter-productive with kim.

    “Actually she often hasn’t been. But she sure was lately, especially not long before signing off.”
    –lmao rofl. No, far from it.

    “Rolling that around in your mind and saying something that gets at it is far more powerful. ”
    —have you not been here while O and I ripped her aknew with basic facts.

    doug, really, are you going soft?


  444. Lurker–

    doug, really, are you going soft?

    No, I’m being smart.

    I comes naturally.


  445. “No, I’m being smart.”

    –sucking up to a screeching feminist skank isn’t smart at all.


  446. lurker: Our wedding? Has noone supplied you with muslim proposal techniques: Where is the request for my mother’s number? Wasn’t I relegated to slut, now, anyway? Don’t you hate me too much as an inferior female to have to spend eternity with me?

    All irrelevant, since I’m set ruthlessly/heartlessly on doug.

    schoolboy: CVS = chorionic villus sampling? If so, increased risk of miscarriage makes it unethical. It has to wait until its born.


  447. Doug1, kim is a typical illogical slut. She is as ignorable as contrarian.


  448. on May 12, 2009 at 8:53 pm michael farris

    “Men who want to get married want monogomous wives, which are rarer than they protray themselves.”

    ITA. Like I said, neither men nor women are biologically programmed for monogamous marriage (for different reasons) and both men and women want and expect higher standards of behavior from their partners than they’re willing to adhere to themselves (again in different ways).

    Basically men have very low standards beyond ‘willing’ while women realize that some guys who might be fun sex partners are probably not good husband/father material (and don’t require or expect that of them).

    Basically, I don’t idealize either male or female behavior, it is what it is and the wise person doesn’t expect seals to behave like buffaloes or buffaloes like seals.


  449. CVS: the American drugstore chain.


  450. “It”

    Wow, dude…. profound. :)


  451. bhetti, why do you deny your lust for me?


  452. Tupac Seriously though, I think Clio and Whiskey would be a good match. A blogosphere power couple.
    *slings Tupac into a chair law and order style*
    Are you serious??? Are you out of your darn mind???
    Don’t you ever utter such garbage again for as long as you live. Whiskey is mine, all mine.
    1. lurker Men and women are different.
    A cheating woman is worse than a cheating man.

    You and a few other men here are beating a dead horse. Women under 30 don’t agree, even if she tells you she agrees, she is lying. Hoing is hoing. A cheating man cheats with another man’s woman (or potential woman). There are 6 billion of us and it’s pretty much evenly divided in number according to gender so there aren’t enough women around for men to get experience with, before they take anther man’s woman.
    michael Basically neither men nor women are biologically programmed for marital faithfulness and demanding higher standards from one than the other is …. foolish.
    agreed but for some people this small truth is so painful.
    Sometimes I wonder what men would do if women went on a poon strike. Watch the alpha of alpha become beta for just a taste. All least it will help bring the people back in line morally riiiigggghhhhtttt.


  453. lurker: lust does not a marriage make.


  454. Chic’s right about the Pill, though. I swear that stuff works primarily by annihilating your libido.


  455. omw
    CVS: the American drugstore chain.

    yes


  456. on May 12, 2009 at 8:56 pm michael farris

    “the one where didn’t know she was married and avoids having sex with women he knows are taken”

    and carefully avoids finding out she’s married (or otherwise taken) after the jizzbomb horizon …..


  457. doug1:

    Just wanted to get this topic moving by asking a question. Everyone is attacking kim but it won’t work in changing how she views things. That is all.

    No more friendly thoughts. *shudders*


  458. OMW, thank you! Too many abbreviations in medicine.

    You guys better not think about it anyway.


  459. “Basically men have very low standards beyond ‘willing’ while women realize that some guys who might be fun sex partners are probably not good husband/father material (and don’t require or expect that of them).”

    —translation: men want to spread their seed,a nd good women want to be choosy. Skanks are not choosy. Cheating broads are liars and try to get good men to take care of children not their own.

    Women who cheat on husbands are filthy whores.

    “Basically, I don’t idealize either male or female behavior, it is what it is and the wise person doesn’t expect seals to behave like buffaloes or buffaloes like seals.”
    —-WTF kidn of half-assed anaology is that. I expect my women to act like dogs, myself. beta boy. ;)


  460. “and carefully avoids finding out she’s married (or otherwise taken) after the jizzbomb horizon …..”
    —lol. Jealous, beta boy?

    “Women under 30 don’t agree”
    –my gosh,a flighty skanky broad won’t stop hoing? please, tell me more, truth teller.

    ” Hoing is hoing. A cheating man cheats with another man’s woman (or potential woman). ”
    –some who don’t know. Just liek Roissy didn’t know.

    “There are 6 billion of us and it’s pretty much evenly divided in number according to gender so there aren’t enough women around for men to get experience with, before they take anther man’s woman.”
    –yes, but if she cheats when married she is worse.

    A man who cheats is acting naturally.

    A woman who does is acting unnaturally. And poorly.

    End scene. You lose.


  461. first :lurker
    Doug1, kim is a typical illogical slut. She is as ignorable as contrarian.

    then: lurker
    bhetti, why do you deny your lust for me?

    *looks at lurker like the oracle from the matrix*
    *takes long pull of cigarette*
    *exhales over shoulder*

    Sometimes son, we can answer our own questions if only we take a deep look at ourselves.


  462. LOL bhetti aren’t you from london?

    CVS is an american drug store. Like “Boots The chemist” in london.


  463. lol chic. quoting crap like the Matrix? Maybe next you can use an oh so intelligent Beyonce song in your argument.

    “Sometimes son, we can answer our own questions if only we take a deep look at ourselves.”
    —Chic, I am a man. Men cannot be sluts, unless they are gay bottoms, which I am not.

    Women who sleep around are sluts.

    A woman feeling desire for a man is not sluttish for the desire.

    i know that hurts your tiny female brain but try to keep up.


  464. OMW, thank you! Too many abbreviations in medicine.

    You guys better not think about it anyway.

    Girl, I try to avoid thinking, but the unseemly habit keeps creeping back. :(

    Do they still do lobotomies?


  465. A woman who does is acting unnaturally.
    not true. Even lesbians cheat sometimes. I understand if you don’t want to believe this thought.

    A woman can be married to Denzel but if Reggie Bush walks past, she will think, my God that boy is fine. Followed by the whole imagine what he looks like naked, the size of it, wonder if he is any good in bed blah blah blah. The thing is, will she act out on it. Probably not and I would like to believe that average man doesn’t act on his impulses if he has Naomi and Tyra walks by.


  466. Whiskey is mine, all mine.

    Whiskey is much too Scots-Irish to be associated with a Negro woman.


  467. Aw, lurker, surely you of all people, aren’t going the Natural=Good route.


  468. “not true. Even lesbians cheat sometimes.”
    –when did I say it didn’t happen that dykes acted like dykes?

    “A woman can be married to Denzel but if Reggie Bush walks past, she will think, my God that boy is fine.”
    –Chic, I know you’re slow, but you do get the difference between “feeling” something and “acting on that feeling” right?

    And any woman lame enough to find reggie bush attractive is pathetic.

    “The thing is, will she act out on it. Probably not ”
    –so? again, chic, you are wrong; I never said being attracted to someone else is slutty. Acting on it is.

    Dumbass woman.


  469. on May 12, 2009 at 9:07 pm michael farris

    “Skanks are not choosy”

    Talk about naive ……

    When men give in to their basest biological urges (spreadin’ the seed whenever and wherever possible) they’re dopes (maybe happy dopes like Roissy, but dopes nonetheless) if they don’t expect women to give in to _their_ basest biological urges (find a good, dependable day-to-day partner to bond emotionally with while still having the occasional fling with a charming rascal).

    Expecting one side of the male/female dynamic to suddenly develop higher morals is a fool’s game and wanting the state to enforce one side or the other is morally reprehensible (I’ll agree that the current state of affairs is unfair to men, making it unfair to women is not the answer).

    Go ahead, demand MPT (I have nothing whatsoever against that, really, none as long as it’s 100% exception proof) but be aware that any casual squirt in the dark could come back to haunt you bad. The alternative is to accept that not every man is going to raise his biological child (and that some of one’s biological children will be raised by other men).


  470. Natural for a man=spread his seed.

    natural for a woman: choose her mate carefully, not have just any man’s kids.

    Natural.


  471. Yes, from London, thus the ‘WTF?’ at ‘CVS’ which I think I’ve had three corrections for now! Nice of you to know about Boots, although its so bastardised as a store that I remember one distinct incident where I was looking for a chemist and there was a Boots RIGHT THERE which I went past a couple of times. Forgetting what it was.

    Yeah, I’m not that clever. Right, I’m going to sleep.

    OMW: no lobotomies done in this country, to my knowledge, no. Now, I don’t rightly know what ye yankees do.


  472. “if they don’t expect women to give in to _their_ basest biological urges”
    –besides your overwhelming beta desirre to be “please bang my wife” you are not describing any successful society on the planet.

    “Expecting one side of the male/female dynamic to suddenly develop higher morals is a fool’s game and wanting the state to enforce one side or the other is morally reprehensible.”
    –at what point, beta, did anyone here want the state to punish cheating whores? THIS IS ABOUT NOT PUNISHING CUCKHOLDED MEN, beta.

    “be aware that any casual squirt in the dark could come back to haunt you bad.”
    —oooh, I’m sooo afraid. Please tell me more of thsi scary thing called “pregnancy.”

    “The alternative is to accept that not every man is going to raise his biological child.”
    –with MPT, onl;y true losers like you will take that option.


  473. ay, lurker, but your average cheating wife isn’t cheating with EVERYBODY in town. She’s picked out Mr. Provider for social and status reasons, and is now picking Mr. Stud to make her sons sexier. Not consciously, of course.

    But that’s pretty choosy. “It’s natural!”

    If you buy off on all of the standard evo-psych Just-So stories, of course.


  474. Bhetti, go to bed, you’re useless.


  475. “She’s picked out Mr. Provider for social and status reasons, and is now picking Mr. Stud to make her sons sexier. ”
    –not really. Cheating whores destroy their own nest, as it were; in the wild, they would be cast into nature to die. finding mr. stud is just acting unnatural, since she puts her world on the line for a mere orgasm and dead children. not a biologically logical reaction. Provider man was mroe valuable than stud.

    Un. Natural.

    “But that’s pretty choosy.”
    –lol. you think a cheating wife just gets laid by one guy?

    Go see Your errant wife and let me knowhow that goes.

    Once a hoe, always a hoe.


  476. My empty bed. So sad and useless. I could’ve filled it with lurking lovin’. *weeps*


  477. dream on.


  478. She’s picked out Mr. Provider for social and status reasons, and is now picking Mr. Stud to make her sons sexier. Not consciously, of course.

    One is for hugging, the other is for fucking. The problem is that is the man made for fucking doesn’t care about being used, while the man used for hugging may resent paying for the kids of the other man, and he certainly wants to think he’s the man for fucking AND hugging.


  479. I’d argue that “cheating wife” blogs are run more for the thrill of flamboyant semi-public exhibition than for the actual enjoyment of the cheating.

    If we’re talking about the standard extramarital affair, wherein wife falls madly in love with her boss, or her neighbor, then no, she’s not fucking everyone in town. Just one guy.

    (not that this isn’t plenty bad enough!!!)

    She winds up caught between her passionate love of the other man, and her fear of losing the husband and social status.

    You don’t know women if you don’t know that.

    As for what happens “in the wild,” this is like speculating about what human beings are “without culture.”

    Aside from a couple sad specimens locked in closets from infancy, no such critter has been found yet.


  480. Bhetti wrote:
    “I’m not surprised. I was limited to a mere 3 kids maximum by a Westerner in terms of suggested family size. There were some things about traditional good Catholicism…

    Can I get an Amen?????


  481. Yeah, I agree, DA; in large numbers it’s quite untenable.


  482. on May 12, 2009 at 9:22 pm michael farris

    “Natural for a man … natural for a woman”

    Stupid = wanting to punish cheating women and not punish the men they cheat with.

    And get over the beta label, lurker. In primate studies where the terms come from, alphas are not pussy hounds like Roissy, they’re leaders of other males and protectors of the troupe (esp females and infants) who have first access to fertile females (but don’t necessarily get sole access [it's hard to say whether they expect sole access or not but they don't get it in any primate species known AFAIK]).

    And when it comes to humans, societies run for the benefit of betas have produced the highest living standards (for everyone) the world has ever seen. Societies run for the benefit of (true) human alpha males (like Idi Aman, Saddam Hussein, Kim Il-Sen) are shitholes that sane people as far away from as possible as fast as their feet can take them.

    Betas make the world go round, pseudo-alphas like Roissy are at best an irrelevant degenerate sideline and at worst a cancer on society.


  483. “If we’re talking about the standard extramarital affair, wherein wife falls madly in love with her boss, or her neighbor, then no, she’s not fucking everyone in town. Just one guy. ”
    —and once he pumps her and dumps her, she moves on to another cock. She doesn’t fall madly in love, she falls madly in lust.

    “She winds up caught between her passionate love of the other man, and her fear of losing the husband and social status.”
    –which danielle steele novel you getting that from? lol

    “You don’t know women if you don’t know that. ”
    –I know she likes her bills paid while being on the cock merry-go-round.

    “As for what happens “in the wild,” this is like speculating about what human beings are “without culture.” ”
    –lol. like speculating about how natural it is for women to whore it up? Look at nature: animals kill offspring not theirs. Men will nto tolerate another’s seed.

    “Aside from a couple sad specimens locked in closets from infancy, no such critter has been found yet.”
    –tokyo?


  484. Bhetti

    My empty bed. So sad and useless. I could’ve filled it with lurking lovin’. *weeps*

    Stop. Please.

    I should be doing other things but this is SO fun!


  485. lurkerAnd any woman lame enough to find reggie bush attractive is pathetic.

    *gives lurker a shake*
    You have lost your damn mind.

    This serves space by itself. Do you see that face,skin and body. yea you are crazy.

    *looks for white jacket*


  486. “Stupid = wanting to punish cheating women and not punish the men they cheat with.”

    Stupid= thinking a man cheating is the same as a woman cheating.

    “And get over the beta label, lurker. In primate studies where the terms come from, alphas are not pussy hounds like Roissy”
    —Easy beta, must’ve hit a nerve. If you hate Roissy’s alpha lessos, why are you here bitch boy?

    “societies run for the benefit of betas have produced the highest living standards (for everyone) the world has ever seen.”
    –except when women act unnaturally and start taking advantage of the system. Then it goes to hell. Like now.

    “Betas make the world go round”
    –until betas like you bow down to feminists and let them take power.

    Face it, beta boy, you’re screwed. ;)


  487. http://www.cannold.com/academic-work/2005-01-01/sperm-wars-book-2005.pdf

    Has some juicy assertions in it such as assigning fatherhood to a man based upon his signing the birth certificate or adoption papers, making him legally responsible for children even if they aren’t his own.

    She’s off her rocker on some points, but provides some interesting facts.

    First, she cites 3 cases in which men have received refunds for paternity fraud. Courts in the U.S., Australia, and U.K. have all sided with men in various instances, so at least this isn’t a full-fledged rout against the cuckolded man.

    Second, the author states that U.K. and Aussie courts are more likely to support the cuckolded father’s rights than courts in the U.S. because of the definition of “Dad” in those countries.

    Years back, the author maintains, U.K. and Australia started defining fatherhood in terms of sperm donator whereas in America fatherhood refers to financial provider.

    What simply needs to happen are paternity tests on demand at birth for “fathers” who wish to have them, with confidential results for the father of course.


  488. Schoolboy Thats, that. Now about those MPT at CVS?
    Oh gosh I would hate to think that you would need one of those. You come across as so sweet and innocent. But yea they are available at CVS, I think maybe not in all states. Basically, you swab you mouth and kid’s mouth and send it in to some lab. I think the total cost is 200-300 bucks. It’s been a while and “people” were working to have it removed from the shelves.

    Lurker women want to argue like men? Then grow some balls and get over it.
    Arguing like men doesn’t always entail name calling. There are a number of men here(mu, doug, Whiskey) who bring heat with little to no name calling. Speaking of which, were the heck is PA. I expect him to be on this topic like a hot potato.
    save your hand-holding and “no put downs” for kindergarten and the sewing circle; men insult, deal with it.
    I see very few men talking to each other like this. Actually, it’s something we women do to each other. Men for whatever reason throw a few insults then somebody is going to get punched or threatened. This seems to cross cultural boundaries.

    lurker
    lol chic. quoting crap like the Matrix? Maybe next you can use an oh so intelligent Beyonce song in your argument

    yes I’m a geek. Hold on the Beyonce song is coming. I’m going to quote “single ladies” and how if everyone woman follow the lyrics no woman would reach 30 without a ring on her finger.

    DA Whiskey is mine, all mine.
    Whiskey is much too Scots-Irish to be associated with a Negro woman.

    What do you have against Whiskey’s Scots-Irish background huh??? Been hanging around HS house to much DA. Anyway, tell that to Rosa Park’s grandad.

    Lurker men here don’t want monogomaous gfs, they just want to bang. Men who want to get married want monogomous wives, which are rarer than they protray themselves Well I hope you aren’t one of the prior because that conflicts greatly with your religion.


  489. on May 12, 2009 at 9:30 pm Tupac Chopra

    Chic:

    Sometimes I wonder what men would do if women went on a poon strike. Watch the alpha of alpha become beta for just a taste.

    Fat chance.

    Men (the real ones) will go on kicking ass, taking names, building stuff, and making shit happen.

    It’s the women who will shrivel into utter irrelevancy.

    DA:

    Whiskey is much too Scots-Irish to be associated with a Negro woman.

    Oh snap!


  490. Obviously, the strategy of cuckholdry carries risks, lurker, if we’re just talking about Darwinian fitness. (It also carries rewards, or women would be as reliably monogamous as we are bipedal.)

    Hell, all reproduction carries risks.

    But to argue that it’s “not natural” is plain stupid.

    It’s immoral, it’s antithetical to the creation of the sort of advanced society most of us would like to live in, but that doesn’t make it “unnatural.”


  491. “You have lost your damn mind. ”
    –you like talentless brainless 2nd stringers? lol.

    “*looks for white jacket*”
    –from the same bitch who thinks Beyonce is the purest of pure virgins? lol. I think that’s for yourself


  492. Roissy can also tell you that none of the married women i banged insisted i wear a condom, not even on the first night.
    *DEAD FAINT*
    Sweet mother of Jesus

    I don’t know maybe I’m to idealistic about the word and the genders. The danger, she is risking her life and that of her children.

    *throws boxing gloves on the mat*

    Kim and lurker you can have the rest of my gateraid ,Vaseline, and wraps.


  493. on May 12, 2009 at 9:31 pm michael farris

    “animals kill offspring not theirs. Men will nto tolerate another’s seed”

    Actually the pattern (in some species, not all by any means) is that a new dominant male kills all the very young in the group at the time he becomes dominant (motives are uncertain – it’s probably less related to supporting other males’ offspring than trying to make females become fertile again as soon as possible).

    Are you suggesting that an infant/child discovered to not be the genetic offspring of the woman’s husband be killed? While, yes, that would be a fine example of ‘natural’ law I think you’ll have trouble getting that past any legislature.


  494. on May 12, 2009 at 9:32 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Stupid = wanting to punish cheating women and not punish the men they cheat with.

    Farris, you mistake a lot of male rage here for this misconception that men want to punish cheating woman and give a pass to cheating men.

    The fact of the matter is that under our current legal system, not only are women NOT punished for cheating…in many cases, they are outright rewarded for there behavior.

    And the guy that ends up paying for it, is the victim…the cheated on husband.

    The only thing MPT really represents is ending the ability of women to fool another man into paying for their offspring derived from infidelity.

    It’s not about “punishing” the cheating woman so much as it’s about preventing her from victimizing the cuckolded man.


  495. on May 12, 2009 at 9:32 pm Tupac Chopra

    lurker:

    Natural for a man=spread his seed.

    natural for a woman: choose her mate carefully, not have just any man’s kids.

    Nope. Natural for women is hypergamy, not monogamy.


  496. Aw, c’mon, Dave, Doug was talking about KILLIN a bitch about 500 comments ago.

    And hey, killin is natural.

    If it feels good, do it!


  497. “Obviously, the strategy of cuckholdry carries risks, lurker, if we’re just talking about Darwinian fitness. It also carries rewards, or women would be as reliably monogamous as we are bipedal.”
    —no, the sexy sons hypothesis is self-defeating, precisely because the “sexiness” of the son is purely irrational, i.e. not based on success. Risking it all for a provider who won’t help you is unnatural. thinking the risk is worht the reward is plain stupid.

    women don’t go for flashy studs except when society allowes them to cheat with impugnity. As in every failing society. as in unnatural circumstances.


  498. on May 12, 2009 at 9:36 pm Tupac Chopra

    lurker:

    and once he pumps her and dumps her, she moves on to another cock. She doesn’t fall madly in love, she falls madly in lust.

    There’s a difference?

    The love I think you’re talking about it the calculated business we call “marriage.”

    “Aside from a couple sad specimens locked in closets from infancy, no such critter has been found yet.”
    –tokyo?

    LOL


  499. “Stupid = wanting to punish cheating women and not punish the men they cheat with.”

    some court rulings have ordered the actual father of the baby to refund support to the cuckolded man.

    http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=3254

    while the biological father should have financial responsibility *after* paternity is determined, it is the female’s “fault” for assigning (falsely) paternity to the cuckolded man.

    how about some punishment for her trying to lead her merry life, having sex with a more “alpha” man, maintaining her beta provided relationship, and having that child raised with no questions asked?


  500. “Actually the pattern (in some species, not all by any means) is that a new dominant male kills all the very young in the group at the time he becomes dominant (motives are uncertain – it’s probably less related to supporting other males’ offspring than trying to make females become fertile again as soon as possible)”
    –lol. yes, because a dominant male really wants to take care of offspirng not his own. Or he wants his genes only to survive.

    “Are you suggesting that an infant/child discovered to not be the genetic offspring of the woman’s husband be killed? ”
    –a modest proposal (scroll up). More so, make the true father pay, and fuck up his parasitic nature.

    “While, yes, that would be a fine example of ‘natural’ law I think you’ll have trouble getting that past any legislature.”
    —so you agree that wanting to take care of your own kids and your wife having kids by another when you are in control is natural.

    Thanks, beta.


  501. If you accept the idea that there are indeed “alpha males” in the world, (guys who get laid more often, and with better mates) and if that alphaness is even somewhat heritable, then how is it “unnatural” for a woman’s genes to want some of that for her sons?

    I mean, I’d agree that it’s not the only force behind mate selection, but it isn’t nonnegligible, right?


  502. on May 12, 2009 at 9:40 pm michael farris

    Dave, you’re still only talking about the responsibility/sins of women and not those of the men they cheat with.

    I’m in favor of a) punishing women for infidelity along with the men they cheat with (whether or not the men ‘knew’ she was married before gifting her with his ejaculation) b) punishing neither (and men being more relaxed about paternity in general). Either is possible (and I realize how the current system penalizes cuckolded men who don’t want anything to do with children they’re not biologically related to).

    But wanting a system that punishes women who stray (with no thought given to the men they stray with, they couldn’t help themselves poor things) is …… not wise. (I’m trying to be diplomatic here).


  503. “Oh gosh I would hate to think that you would need one of those. You come across as so sweet and innocent.”-chic

    and all this because my screen name is schoolboy…


  504. Roissy, and fellow blog followers:

    http://therawness.com/female-swagger/

    That is all.


  505. I have no problem with the law turning a blind eye to a man killing his wife’s lover and her.

    Similar to how some time ago in Baltimore a guy caught a stranger in his 5 year old daughter’s bedroom with his pants unzipped. The intruder jumped out the window and ran, and the father ran after him, caught him, and beat him to near-death. Neither the criminal nor civil court judged against the father.

    Same principle in both cases. Let’s bring back honor.


  506. “If you accept the idea that there are indeed “alpha males” in the world, (guys who get laid more often, and with better mates)”
    —I do, but alpha is the guy with social dominance. In successful societies, social dominance is an ability to lead men to victory in war, business, or to beat men down financially or socially; when females get in charge, the rules change for alphaness, which Roissy has figure dout.

    “and if that alphaness is even somewhat heritable, then how is it “unnatural” for a woman’s genes to want some of that for her sons?”
    —-the parasite sleeping with married women on purpose or not caring isn’t alpha. Roissy, as he has stated, doesn’t want that, and he is alpha. It is parasitic in nature, not alpha.


  507. on May 12, 2009 at 9:46 pm Tupac Chopra

    michael fairy:

    But wanting a system that punishes women who stray (with no thought given to the men they stray with, they couldn’t help themselves poor things) is …… not wise. (I’m trying to be diplomatic here).

    It’s not so much the infidelity as such that is at issue, but the financial and psychological rape of the husband when a pregnancy results.

    Yes, infidelity for a married man sucks balls, but for a woman to father the child of her lover and dupe her husband into paying for it is a whole nother level of depravity entirely.

    Don’t conflate the two issues, Fairy.


  508. Michael Ferris Beta, as the female hysterical reaction here to MPT suggests, women who cheat are much worse than men who do.


  509. Yes, Tupac, lead the charge!


  510. on May 12, 2009 at 9:49 pm michael farris

    “make the true father pay, and fuck up his parasitic nature”

    I somehow don’t think Roissy will welcome this option (anymore than he would the idea that most of the women he ‘seduces’ know exactly what he’s doing and go along with it for their own reasons).

    What _does_ he think of those kids of his out there …. somewhere …. does the guy raising them love them? neglect them? abuse them?

    For that matter, does he really think that 99% of the women he scores with don’t know exactly what he’s doing? (ohh, that’s a neg, i’ll give him a shit test so he can think he’s in charge without going through the whole wingman game …)


  511. on May 12, 2009 at 9:51 pm Tupac Chopra

    PA:

    I have no problem with the law turning a blind eye to a man killing his wife’s lover and her.

    So you think the husbands of the wives Roissy fucked would be justified in killing Roissy?

    The person with the loyalty to the husband is the wife, not any other man.

    I myself have banged a couple wives. I’m not proud of it, but in my defense, they were whores who used their husbands as beta-provider wallets. And they were treated by me commensurately to that fact.


  512. heh. I think Roissy is more “don’t ask, don’t tell” when it comes to pouring out his manhood for the married chicks.

    And, anyway, per Roissy and our other amoral-when-convenient PUAs, no chick can possibly turn away from their charms, regardless of cultural background or marital status; that’s all just “pretty lies” betas tell themselves as they drift off to sleep at night.

    Sure, alphas can be parasitic. My jaundiced view inclines me to suspect that more of them are than aren’t.


  513. on May 12, 2009 at 9:53 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Since a few of you have side tracked towards a discussion of “natural,” here’s a great, online book that discusses the “natural” state of familial organization…aka “Matriarchy” and the artificial construct of “Patriarchy.”

    The Case for Father Custody

    Some of you really need to read this book.


  514. Michael Fairy, being wrong:

    “I somehow don’t think Roissy will welcome this option”
    –who do you think is in favor of MPT? Who pbrought it up, Beta boy? Roissy himself.

    “For that matter, does he really think that 99% of the women he scores with don’t know exactly what he’s doing?”
    –he doesn’t care. Game is about what works, not what the owman is thinking while its working, dumbass.


  515. so if we have a cheating woman and a cheating man, both of whom have taken necessary precautions to prevent pregnancy (for the sake of argument assume this is true) is the cheating woman still worse than the cheating man? or are they now equal?


  516. omw–

    Aw, c’mon, Dave, Doug was talking about KILLIN a bitch about 500 comments ago.

    And hey, killin is natural.

    If it feels good, do it!

    No, but if it feels really but level good, don’t ignore it.

    I said I’d feel morally justified in killing her, and challenged those who demurred to challenge me. No one did.

    I also said it wouldn’t be the smartest course given our current laws and culture. I said that credibly theatening her that you’d do that if she sought child support for her bastard, not yours, spawn, was maybe a smart move.

    Where I’m coming form is I simply wouldn’t pay it. Period. Really.

    So the question is, should I kill her, threaten to repeatedly, with escalting violence, or threaten to and then actually disfigure her face, or what?

    Yeah I might move all my money overseas. Actually in my case that might work, but I’m not even slightly worried.

    But comply? Forget about it. Never.

    I’d go nuclear, one way or another.

    All men who are men should.


  517. “Game is about what works, not what the owman is thinking while its working, dumbass.”

    lol.. lurker…you are the truth sir.


  518. Beta males take to much of a beating here sometimes.

    As much as men like Roosh and Roissy brag about like life styles they only able to exist because of betas who are willing to do the grunt work to keep society stable. Just imagine if all young American men between the age of 25-30 suddenly tuned out Roosh style.


  519. on May 12, 2009 at 9:58 pm Tupac Chopra

    Chuck:

    so if we have a cheating woman and a cheating man, both of whom have taken necessary precautions to prevent pregnancy (for the sake of argument assume this is true) is the cheating woman still worse than the cheating man?

    What do you think champ? Who made vows?


  520. on May 12, 2009 at 9:59 pm michael farris

    “he doesn’t care”

    ITA. He doesn’t care about any of his partners (long or short term) or any of the children he may have unwittingly fathered (or marriages or relationships he may have derailed). He doesn’t care that he may be being used as much as he’s using. He’s a living dildo who thinks he’s a real live boy.


  521. Ah so you’ve made a apperance PA. I was wondering what happened to you.


  522. Ah so you’ve made an apperance PA. I was wondering what happened to you.


  523. completely off topic, but two truths

    - life without soccer is for suckers
    - soccer is the ultimate alpha sport.

    PS: those who have a little bit of knowledge about what ” Libertadores Cup” means will see the irony i the second truth


  524. That’s cool and all, Doug, but Dave is trying to pretend the discussion is all about merely extricating an otherwise helpless victim, not about revenge or punishment at all.

    Clearly, there’s some fantasizing about revenge going on here.

    And I’m not singling you out for attack, darlin. I just remember everything you say. LOL.


  525. I haven’t read all of the comments so this may have been addressed already, but aside from PA’s suggestion, what should be done with the men with whom the women cheat?

    I’m not fan of cheating women, but the cynical side of me thinks that a fair portion of the posters here would be rather lenient on the man; mainly because they’ve been that man or would someday like to be.


  526. before I start my tuesday drinking in honor of what just happened in the most important event on Earth today (hat tip: google Libertadores Cup), one last comment: I am with those who support plain murder for cheating wifes.


  527. on May 12, 2009 at 10:04 pm michael farris

    “or would someday like to be”

    I think “would like to be” is really the operative phrase here.


  528. on May 12, 2009 at 10:05 pm Dave from Hawaii

    I’m not trying to pretend anything. Revenge and punishment are really only the consequences of MPT revealing a cuckolding whore.

    Quit pretending that Doug’s feelings of justification for murdering a cheating wife is the primary topic of discussion.

    It’s about Mandatory Paternity Testing stripping away the current paradigm in which women hold ALL of the cards when it comes to reproductive rights.


  529. Tupac Chopra:

    both, champ.


  530. lurker

    If sara’s man went muff diving in 22 year old pussy but came up for air to pay her bills, she ‘d hem and haw publically and then spread her legs nightly just thinking about what other pussy his dick’s been in.

    You don’t know me very well. If my man went muff diving on the side, I’d tell him to to go hell and that would be the end of it. Short, sweet, and to the point. Some lies aren’t so pretty. I’d rather live on the street than suck up to a man who is lying cheater. If he was “cheating” and not lying about it, that would be different. Then we’d just be incompatible. I

    Default User

    Stop taunting GNPeter (ironrailsironweights)

    Peter can beat around me bush any time he likes.

    Peter

    Do you mean the sweetly trimmed bush often seen on the types of pretty young women i no longer have access to? *sigh*.

    Okay, Peter. What is your very favorite type of bush and we know you must have one. Or give us your top 3.

    A woman talking about trust being the foundation to a marriage (typical modern pseudo-intellectual nonsense) is always talking about the man *never questioning* her actions, not the other way around.

    Yeah, sure. You’re full of shit. #_#


  531. The flip side of the Roissy figure is the homewrecking skank! ;)

    “He was married? Oh, Mami, I didn’t know! But now your daughter will finally have a little sister!”


  532. chic noir

    Beta males take to[o] much of a beating here sometimes.

    In many ways i agree Chic.

    Most betas will marry. Actually, the great majority of them.

    (Get a prenup men. Settle a little to get one if you have to. It will help keep things better, not just help you if it all turns to shiite. Stone up about asking / requiring it. That in and of itself is a good precedent and selection tool.)

    Most betas have had girlfriends. What they can’t do is pick up girls easily, or bounce quickly after being dumped. And they rarely themselves dump. They suck at getting casual sex and if they ever do it’s a fluke. Yeah all of that matters a lot but it’s not as apocalypticly bad for betas even today as Rossy and especially Whiskey (goading towards revolution) want to make out. Though of course they’re jealous looking in.

    Here’s my thing Chic. I care about highly productive betas getting attractive women. I don’t much care that loser omega’s and lower clerk kinds of betas don’t. To bring it home, though David Alexander is articulate and in some puppy kinds of ways charming, I can’t really see how so far he’s of any value and needs to reproduce. I’m neutral about that with him. Fine if he can, don’t care if he can’t. Though actually I’m rather sure he will manage to do ok, given that he’s personality wise quite attractive to women. Far from a stud, and always will be, but not every woman wants that.

    It’s terrible for society if software engineers and mechanical ones can’t get hallway attractive women to marry them. It really is.


  533. on May 12, 2009 at 10:14 pm Dave from Hawaii

    “He was married? Oh, Mami, I didn’t know!

    If she didn’t know, than how is she a homewrecking skank?

    The “home wrecking skank” deliberately and knowingly screws a married man because it makes her feel powerful in her desirability…she gets off on knowing she has seduced a man away from his wife’s bed.

    Your scenario is more like a “reverse” cuckold…except the law would still make the cheating husband pay child support for the little bastard.


  534. “is the cheating woman still worse than the cheating man”
    —chuck, yes. basic biology.


  535. and, dave, the husband would still pay for his poor, putupon wife


  536. on May 12, 2009 at 10:18 pm Tupac Chopra

    Chuck:

    both, champ.

    My bad, I thought you were talking about a wife cheating with a single guy.


  537. Nah, the little imaginary slut only pretends she didn’t know. ;)

    Who can be bothered to ask such mundane questions in the heat of the moment?

    Sure, the law makes Daddy shell out for the little bastard; it’s not the kid’s fault his parents didn’t stop to ask each other some basic questions before they got busy making him.


  538. @I_Affe_ If the guy was aware of the woman’s husband prior to, he deserves to have his ass pounded too.

    PA1. Neither the criminal nor civil court judged against the father.
    Same principle in both cases. Let’s bring back honor.

    So the pervert had the nerve to take the case to civil court?

    lurker said “is the cheating woman still worse than the cheating man”
    —chuck, yes. basic biology.

    DAve from Hawaii & Tupac, some men beg to differ. It’s about more than being cuckholed.


  539. Michael Fairy Beta:

    “He’s a living dildo who thinks he’s a real live boy.”
    —-and you’re a walking talking vagina.


  540. lurker,

    but the “basic biology” rests on reproductive concerns. if those concerns are taken out of the equation, how would the cheating woman be any worse than the man?


  541. @chuck- No he’s thinking the man has the part that goes in. the banana part and the female has the apple part.


  542. Dave from Hawaii–

    Doug’s feelings of justification for murdering a cheating wife

    Please. Not what I said.

    I’d let any cheating wife go. Lots of women out there who want me. In fact in limited circumstances, with huge remorse and effort on her part I might forgive, as I’ve said above. Might. Huge remorse and proving herself to me. Have to be huge things right. Totally up to me.

    What i said with respect to 1) a cheating wife, who 2) had a bastard chlld, and 3) deceived me about it for years, who I then discovered and divorced, as i would, who then 3) sued me for child support under our current incredible feminist divorce and child support laws (that very few men really know about, courtesy of our media), her, I would have murderous thoughts towards, and feel fully morally justified in feeling that way.

    I also said it wasn’t the smartest thing to do. But that credibly threatening her along those lines, or disfiguring her face etc., might well be.

    It seems a lot of people here have taken me pretty seriously. Do you think she would too?


  543. on May 12, 2009 at 10:25 pm Tupac Chopra

    Chuck:

    but the “basic biology” rests on reproductive concerns. if those concerns are taken out of the equation, how would the cheating woman be any worse than the man?

    http://www.womensinfidelity.com

    In a nutshell: when a man cheats, it’s usually just meaningless sex. He can still manage his family.

    When a woman cheats, it’s usually because she’s lost all respect for her husband and doesn’t respect him as a man. Women fall in “love” when they cheat. Much more disastrous for a family unit.


  544. Chuck,
    evo speaking,we’re only at the point now where those concerns are out of the picutre, and they;ve only been out of the picture for 50 years at best. That’s opposed to 10,000 years of human evolution.

    Thus, the cheating woman’s mindset is still reproductively based, even if it is unnatrually twisted by our current decadence.

    If this keeps up for 1000 years with no collapse of society (highly unlikely) or radical rejection of the methods (also unlikely), we can talk.

    A cheating woman is always worse than a cheating man.


  545. Yep, ask any man who’s been cheated on—-wait, they don’t talk about it, right? Because its emasculating: emabrassing, makes him seem like less of a man. Because his wife is calling out his betaness for all the world to see.

    A woman who cheats blames her man–and never feels bad, except in fleeting moments.


  546. on May 12, 2009 at 10:31 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Doug – I get your point. I believe I’d probably seriously consider it myself in the face of a long term cuckolding deception myself…especially if the courts ordered me to pay child support after I kicked her cheating ass to the curb.

    I was merely responding to OMW trying to simplify your post — and all the men that have been participating in the discussion — as the primary topic of discussion here. It’s NOT about murdering cuckolding wives.


  547. The more I live, the more I get those old movies and stories where people would meet in the city but move out to the country. it wasn’t just the old “start a farm”mentality; it was “get the whore out fo the decadent city before she cheats” mentality.


  548. on May 12, 2009 at 10:34 pm michael farris

    lurker, can’t you think of any funnier insults?

    I mean I really don’t care what anonymous people call me (knock yourself out) but you haven’t addressed any of my points in detail or explained any of yours. Womens’ infidelity is bad because you say it is, mens’ infidelity is teh awesome because …. you said so. Those aren’t arguments.

    I’m actually pretty non-judgemental and think people should by and large pursue the lifestyle they want (and realize what they want isn’t for everyone and realize that most people want lifestyles they can’t really live up to).

    Again, sexual freedom for Roissy means non-exclusive access to girlfriends and wives for you, lurker, for you. Exclusive access to womens’ sexuality means Iranian or Saudi style control and brutality and a whore class for Roissy to play with. Which is it you want? You can’t have everything.

    If a man wants a faithful wife, then guys like Roissy are his sworn enemy, as Roissy himself says despite some passive agressive non-denials of responsibility for wrecking lives in the pursuit of whatever it is he’s pursuing.


  549. Cuckoldry has a purpose. It allows stronger genes to propagate without bogging down the men with stronger genes. We can no more afford to ban cuckoldry now in the modern era than we could before if we want a fit species. Otherwise we become a race of ugly pussies.

    Personally I hope my quality seed fathers many children. I refuse to ever get snipped.


  550. Nah, but it’s also not about a clean, equitable reform of the legal system. It’s about proving Natural Male Superiority to the wickedness perversity of the female id.

    That’s fine and dandy, too; I think that’s an interesting point of view.

    It merely sort of irritates me to hear this stuff couched in terms of Equality.

    MRAs don’t want equality, though– they crave supremacy. Bitches ain’t shit.


  551. on May 12, 2009 at 10:41 pm Tupac Chopra

    MRAs don’t want equality, though– they crave supremacy.

    “You want a 50/50 relationship? It means she owns you.” – David D.


  552. “mens’ infidelity is teh awesome because ”
    —nice straw man there, nevber said it. I said the wife’s infidelity is worse (much worse) than the man’s, beta boy.

    “I’m actually pretty non-judgemental and think people should by and large pursue the lifestyle they want”
    –attention: SWPLer alert!

    “sexual freedom for Roissy means non-exclusive access to girlfriends and wives for you, lurker, for you”
    —no, it doesn’t. Roissy finds unattached women or women who make no protest about their attachment until after he bangs them–the married women he stays away from. There are plenty of unattached whores out there.

    “Which is it you want?”
    –False choice. You can have a society of hedionists and asubset of good girls. Been going on for thousands of years. We’re just running out of good girls, thanks to the “non-judgmental types” like you bitch boy.

    “If a man wants a faithful wife, then guys like Roissy are his sworn enemy, as Roissy himself says despite some passive agressive non-denials of responsibility for wrecking lives in the pursuit of whatever it is he’s pursuing.”
    —lol wrong, and a lie. Roissy does nto want to, but it is not his job to ferret out whether he’s banging a cheating wife or just your mom.

    wrong again, fairy boy. Back to the hipster commune with you.


  553. on May 12, 2009 at 10:42 pm Tupac Chopra

    Bitches ain’t shit.

    Only now, at the end, do you understand. ;)


  554. Could he be considered alpha if he raised his non-kid daughter, and molested and raped her throughout her most fertile, fresh teen years?


  555. Hey, then all I have to worry my pretty head about is shoe-shopping! :D


  556. on May 12, 2009 at 10:48 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Could he be considered alpha if he raised his non-kid daughter, and molested and raped her throughout her most fertile, fresh teen years?

    Only if he starts doing so when she’s around 2 or 3 years old.

    She has to at least be potty trained first.


  557. I have no problem with the law turning a blind eye to a man killing his wife’s lover and her.

    I’m sorry, but that’s why my parents moved to a white-people country. White people don’t do that anymore, and as far as I’m concerned it’s a sign of civility…


  558. @DA- I think your jealous of my love for whiskey. This isn’t the first time you’ve thrown out slurs about my love for him.

    At one point, I was looking to you to be my husband you and the father of my children but you’re not being able to protect me turned me off. Imagine the high iq blk kids we may have had. Little Condi,Obama,May Anderson, and Ben Carsons to make our people proud.

    *sigh*


  559. on May 12, 2009 at 10:53 pm michael farris

    “I said the wife’s infidelity is worse (much worse) than the man’s, beta boy”

    You just can’t explain why in a way that would allow any of us to keep a straight face.

    “Roissy does nto want to” (sic)

    Poor thing he just can’t help it, the words “Are you married?” represents too much effort (and might spoil all the effort he’s expended to get into Mrs Beta’s pants). He’s a victim! A victim I tell you! These slutty women just use him and forget all about him.

    “it is not his job to ferret out whether he’s banging a cheating wife or just your mom”

    I cannot believe you’re lame and/or desperate enough to pull the ‘your mom’ card.


  560. Michael, these men don’t cry uncle.


  561. on May 12, 2009 at 10:59 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Gee Michael, do you think that maybe a married woman is all grown up and bears the responsibility for her choices?

    Why do you care about the cad, when he’s not the one that made the vows of monogamy?

    One person takes a vow to “forsake all others.” The other took no such oath.

    Now, I don’t think the guy banging a married chick is admirable..but the person breaking their vow is more culpable and reprehensible in my book.


  562. on May 12, 2009 at 11:00 pm Tupac Chopra

    Hey, then all I have to worry my pretty head about is shoe-shopping!

    As you wish.

    As long as you service your husband and don’t mouth off to him, it’s all good.

    You can even read books in your free time if it suits you.


  563. on May 12, 2009 at 11:05 pm Tupac Chopra

    I’ve seen so many faces, and always left my mark
    I’ve kissed so many faces, lips smooth, just like a shark
    I have no friends, I hope that’s understood
    I take what I can take, when the taking’s good
    It’s not for love but I’ll gladly take your money
    I can pretend to be so sad or funny
    You’ll just love the way I move when I dance
    My young hips, they know how to entrance
    Nevermind him, he’s not here now
    It’s really not my problem anyhow

    An angel of love is what I may appear
    Your lonely ache, I can make, dissappear
    Yes, take me deep inside so I can heal your pain
    No angel of love takes another man’s gain

    You want to keep me held inside your cage
    You best remember, you’re twice my age
    You think I’ll wan’t you for evermore
    It’s only been two weeks, and you’re such a bore
    I can see you’re new to this, you don’t know the rules
    You’re just another one in a long line of fools

    Can you be happy for one moment in your life
    It doesn’t bother you you’re someone else’s wife?

    An angel of love is what I may appear
    What I really am is really not so clear
    I don’t live for love, you sticky bitch
    All I care about is if you’re rich
    You decide if you still want to play this game
    The price to you for this is nothing will ever be the same

    – Alex Lifeson


  564. Hey, then all I have to worry my pretty head about is shoe-shopping!

    I’d say “Useless, stupid, lazy bitch who is incapable of taking care of herself”, but with more civility and gentleness.


  565. on May 12, 2009 at 11:06 pm michael farris

    “In a nutshell: when a man cheats, it’s usually just meaningless sex. He can still manage his family.
    When a woman cheats, it’s usually because she’s lost all respect for her husband and doesn’t respect him as a man. Women fall in “love” when they cheat. Much more disastrous for a family unit.”

    Now you make a better case than lurker does in all his flailing about and (charmingly childlike) name-calling.

    If I understand your position: Male infidelity is not necessarily a critique of the wife’s performance as a wife (given male madonna/whore hangups and generally low standards regarding sexual partners and ability to separate sex and emotional investment) while female infidelity is ofen very much a critique of the husband as a husband (given womens’ generally pickier sexual standards and desires for sexual and emotional needs to be met simultaneously).

    There’s a lot you leave out (a man may not intend to be insulting his wife through infidelity while she’ll absolutely feel the insult and some women can separate sex and emotions pretty easily) but yours is a position I can at least respect if not totally agree with. Well done.


  566. JerrDogg has a good point. Its the whole Cads v Dads thing again. Women want the excitement of having sex with someone that sexually excites them but wants to have a man that will provide for her and her offspring. It’s biologically imprinted.

    But its funny which direction everyone is approaching the issue from. The worst epithet hurled on this board is “Beta”, and the beta is pitied and despised yet everyone gets up in arms about the beta being wronged.

    many here defend the beta and really it seems as if you all wish we had a system of sexual egalitarianism, but at the same time, the spoils of the alpha are heralded by most here.

    if you have a system (HBD) which realizes the ugly truth of things, and you accept the alpha and even aspire to fill that role, you can’t also have sympathy for the beta. the beta is beta by definition of the alpha. without alpha, there is no beta. the terms are relative.

    plus, as jerrdogg points out, what if we had some sort of device (MPT) to weed out cuckolded children. what if the number of cuckolded children decreases? we’d have to assume that those children receive “weaker” genes compared to the Cad alternative. perhaps we’re screwing with the natural order of things.

    from a purely Darwinistic view, perhaps the cuckolded man *should* be forced to pay for the other man’s child. this would reallocate resources to a more socially and reproductive optimal end, the Cad’s.


  567. on May 12, 2009 at 11:12 pm Tupac Chopra

    Male infidelity is not necessarily a critique of the wife’s performance as a wife

    P r e c i s e l y

    yours is a position I can at least respect if not totally agree with. Well done.

    I aim to please.

    Did you check out the link to http://www.womensinfidelity.com ?

    It’s written by a woman.


  568. on May 12, 2009 at 11:14 pm Tupac Chopra

    from a purely Darwinistic view, perhaps the cuckolded man *should* be forced to pay for the other man’s child. this would reallocate resources to a more socially and reproductive optimal end, the Cad’s.

    This is expat’s position, but as Whiskey points out, it is the high IQ betas that push civilizational progress forward.


  569. on May 12, 2009 at 11:15 pm michael farris

    “these men don’t cry uncle”

    I don’t expect them to. Mostly they’re reacting pretty much as I would expect.

    “do you think that maybe a married woman is all grown up and bears the responsibility for her choices? Why do you care about the cad”

    I guess I haven’t been clear. My position:

    Punish both the cheating spouse (and the person they’re cheating with) or punish neither. Don’t go whining to the law to punish one more harshly than the other. If men have the short end of the stick now the answer is not to make women get the short end of the stick but to punish (or not) adultery equally, married cheater and unmarried cheater.

    And …. be careful what you wish for. Insisting on female monogamy has traditionally led to high levels of male sexual frustration (no matter how much game he has).


  570. Re: Cuckold children

    Maybe we should offer a tax credit for raising the children of cuckoldry. In other words, pay betas to be betas with something more useful and better than once a month sex.


  571. on May 12, 2009 at 11:20 pm Tupac Chopra

    For OMW:


  572. Michael Fairy, being the beta:

    “You just can’t explain why”
    –except I pointed out biological reporductive needs. But hey, sticking your head in the sand is more fun for you…

    “Poor thing he just can’t help it, the words “Are you married?””
    –typical beta response: she’s out, drinking flirting, going home wiht him—but he should assume she’s married, the cad! Evil man.

    “He’s a victim! A victim I tell you! These slutty women just use him and forget all about him.”
    —at what point did Roissy or I claim he was a victim? He used her, she just concealed information he was under no obligation ask. She’s at fault, not him, beta boy.

    “I cannot believe you’re lame and/or desperate enough to pull the ‘your mom’ card.”
    –lol said the bitch blaiming the single guy hitting on an apparently single woman for not ruthlessly investigating whether she was secretly married.

    betas. can’t live with ‘em. can’t shoot ‘em.


  573. “Punish both the cheating spouse (and the person they’re cheating with) or punish neither. Don’t go whining to the law to punish one more harshly than the other.”

    —those 2 sentences are in confict, moron.

    but, as we explained, the cheating whore is worse than the cheating man. If she is cheated on, she still gets all the benefits of the marriage or divorce. If he is, he does not.

    “If men have the short end of the stick now the answer is not to make women get the short end of the stick”
    —lol. or take away their long end.

    “but to punish (or not) adultery equally, married cheater and unmarried cheater.”
    –ah, the beta. still believing men and women are equal. How is that dildo up your ass, boy?

    “And …. be careful what you wish for.”
    –oh noes! a warning from a fairy!

    “Insisting on female monogamy has traditionally led to high levels of male sexual frustration (no matter how much game he has).”
    —really? do tell. because it is precisely the opposite: monogamy has lead to marriage —marriages where the wife had to give up sex by law and religion, so no frustration. It is polygamy that leads to frustration.

    You lose, beta boy.


  574. ha, Tupac, I was listening to that today in the car. Which, of course, got me thinking about Roissy.

    Ben Folds– ironically tired of being ironic before it was even cool.


  575. Tupac:

    true. society does need betas, but everyone is up in arms when what happens to them is the shit that *always* happens to betas.

    they get cheated on, used, abused, cuckolded and maligned in the name of women and alpha men.

    to account for this, high IQ beta men have retreated to their own endeavors to seek out a proxy for sex with hot chicks: academia, video games, science, blogs, etc. there they gain the favor of like-minded betas, and competition on those grounds is akin to getting women.


  576. marriages where the wife had to give up sex by law and religion, so no frustration

    Having sex with a woman who isn’t sexually attracted to me is a form of sexual frustration, especially if I have to “pay” for it.


  577. Roissy has staed Chuck, that his work is about dealing with the evolution of how the world has become; he praises virgin women, he just doesn’t beleive women live up to their virginal uses, therefore, he treats them as the sluts they really are.

    We decry unfairness heaped on men by women by the law.

    We also know that if betas realize how often they have been cucklolded, they will turn alpha and put women in their place.


  578. on May 12, 2009 at 11:31 pm Tupac Chopra

    ha, Tupac, I was listening to that today in the car. Which, of course, got me thinking about Roissy.

    Ben Folds– ironically tired of being ironic before it was even cool.

    When a limpwristed herb like Ben Folds does a cover of Bitches Aint Shit, you know there is a sea change afoot.


  579. yeah, but he’s doing it purely to mock his own herb persona. Same vein as “Rocking the Suburbs,” only much more amusing.

    Not much of a sea change to be found in whiteboy self-deprecation.


  580. on May 12, 2009 at 11:42 pm Tupac Chopra

    yeah, but he’s doing it purely to mock his own herb persona.

    Joke: What do you call herbs mocking their own pathetic personas?

    Answer: A good start.


  581. Those who can’t trust will be doomed to loneliness.

    Words of wisdom:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_Verify


  582. Cuckolding wife = curb.

    Expensive? maybe. Self respect? Priceless.


  583. Cheating does not justify murder.

    And a man is supposed to control his emotions.

    That is all.


  584. on May 12, 2009 at 11:50 pm Comment_Whatever

    Points to take away from this thread:

    1.Secretly test to see if ‘your’ children are yours. It’s cheap. If they are yours, then great! No harm, no foul. But you should test, because they might not be yours.

    2.The law in almost all states doesn’t care if you can prove the child isn’t yours.

    http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=guy.wisdom&category=family.guy&conitem=4a096f83c9821110VgnVCM10000013281eac____

    If you want to avoid child support payments, then you need to make use of your passport. Remember, the results of your SECRET DNA test is known only to you. You have time. Breath in, breath out. No need to tell anyone.

    3.Women, take note that the issue of cuckolding will turn placid guys turn into maniacs screaming for blood.

    4.Men, take note that many women can’t bring themselves to say cuckolding is wrong…. even though the men here are very mad and it is clearly a VERY BAD IDEA to support it. They just can’t help themselves. They really can’t.

    Doing my part to help thread-count reach 900.


  585. A woman who cheats has lost her value. Hence why the Romans thought you couldn’t rape a prostitute, since she had no value worth suing over.

    After that, she a worthless asset that you must nonetheless take care of and be shamed for it. Destroying the asset is a logical response, but not legal. that’s why divorce laws must be reformed.

    MPT: It’s for the children.


  586. on May 12, 2009 at 11:54 pm Tupac Chopra

    Whiskey:

    Do you like Clio like I like Clio?

    (They Call Me Bruce reference for any oldsters out there)


  587. Biased divorce laws :

    It is not an exaggeration to say that married men in America today have it just about as bad as blacks did under Jim Crow laws, around, say, the 1950s. The court circuses that destroy a dutiful husband and father are merely the modern feminist equivalent of a lynching.

    How did things get this bad? Particularly when most women wouldn’t go too far out of their way to implement such judicial changes (even if they exploit them after they exist). This is America, isn’t it?

    I think it is a combination of :
    1) Feminist lawyers working tirelessly in collusion with male divorce lawyers. Full-time feminists are still a small percentage of the female population, but have a disproportionate impact.
    2) The general chivalry/goodwill that most men still bestow upon (now undeserving) women. Men are behind the curve in this regard, and are analogous to ‘house slaves’.
    3) Many men still believing that it is their ‘duty’ to marry and have a family. This is noble, but now that the game is rigged against them, they have yet to swallow the fact that they have to re-assess what their obligations really are. This is the era of the cad, not the dad.
    4) The unwillingness of men to go vocal and share their horrors with other men, and organize around this political cause. Political causes much more trivial than this can readily gain a following, but this cannot. How many men will even write a letter to their Senator about this? None.

    So Beta men do have themselves to blame. Particularly for point 4).

    All this in combination allows the current status quo to continue.

    This will be busted apart by 2020, however, due to 1) technology, and 2) Islam, as I have written about before. Game is also a factor, except that I am convinced that we will never get to a point where more than 2% of men are moderately good at practicing Game.


  588. on May 12, 2009 at 11:57 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””””””@Bhetti
    Bhetti
    lurker: Our wedding? Has noone supplied you with muslim proposal techniques: Where is the request for my mother’s number? Wasn’t I relegated to slut, now, anyway? Don’t you hate me too much as an inferior female to have to spend eternity with me?

    All irrelevant, since I’m set ruthlessly/heartlessly on doug. “””””””””””

    I guess I revoke my offer then. He He He

    Doug won good job bud.

    You won a ruthless heartless bitch. lol


  589. on May 13, 2009 at 12:00 am Comment_Dave_From_Hawaii

    Dave, do you know if the blog ‘The Reality Method’ is still present anywhere on the web?

    I read a little of what he wrote, and was curious about the rest. If you saved any articles, and I know this is a big favor to ask, then could you zip them and send them to whatever894@yahoo.com?

    I know you have no reason to take the trouble to do that, but the blog seems to be gone from the web. No problem if you can’t.

    *Doing my part to help thread-count reach 900.


  590. Doug1 wrote :

    Yeah I might move all my money overseas.

    From what I understand, that does not work if you are a salaried worker at a corporation. They can merely subpoena the account that your paycheck when to, and will ask what all the withdrawals are. Since your income came from a known source, you are screwed.

    There are other things a salaried worker can do, however. But he will always be at a disadvantage to a business owner, in terms of divorce discovery.

    The best insurance is the combo of 1) pre-nup, and 2) marrying a woman who makes the same or more than you. Then, your risk, while not zero, is much less.


  591. I am female, and I agree with the “male” take on this issue. FWIW, I belong to a traditional subculture.

    By the way, Dr. Laura takes the “female” side of the issue. I used to read her columns. She thought a married woman pregnant with her lover’s child should stay with her husband on the grounds that multiple future generations of her family’s well being were at stake.


  592. I’m going to pressure the harpies a bit more.

    Direct question to all the women reading this :

    Is cuckolding a man, within marriage, wrong?

    Bhetti, is it wrong?

    Kim, is it wrong?

    Anony, is it wrong?

    Chic Noir, is it wrong?

    Who else is a woman here? You better answer, all of you.

    I think Nicole is the only one who will truly be fair here. Where is Nicole when you need her?


  593. blue, that might be true, but I also know Dr. Laura would have castigated the woman to death, and probably made her perfom sexual penance. The shaming via radio is what Laura does best–she understands how women unshamed are going to stray, and that society has abandoned shame to control women, because its judgmental. Dr. Laura is adamantly against divorce, I know, so she is conflcited there.

    And I’m guessing that the woman had other children by the husband, no? That may be an impetus; some children were his, which, for Laura, is good enough to keep mommy and daddy at home.


  594. I also remember an article from several years ago in a woman’s magazine by a lady who had cuckolded her husband.

    The thing I remember about it is the lady said she didn’t feel guilty about it at all because she felt she had always been a good wife to her husband.

    She also said she and her husband maintained an active sex life during her extra marital affair and had always had an active sex life though her heart wasn’t in it.

    I was only in my early teens at that time, so I didn’t really understand these issues at all. I found the sentiments expressed sooooo puzzling. I don’t now.


  595. Prediction:
    Bhetti: yes.

    Kim: oh, no, its both of their fault. They should work on strengthening their relationship and not being petty.

    anony: No.

    Chic Noir: *sassy black dialectic remark* No woman should cheat, but lord, this hate coming out of here makes my head spin!


  596. Re: Dr. Laura

    I also remember a certain call to the show. A certain divorced guy had a child and had divorced because his wife had cuckolded him.

    He was calling because whenever he had his kid over, his ex-wife apparently expected him to watch the illegitimate child as well, which he did not want to do.

    The issues people have! Amazing!

    Dr. Laura took the guy’s side.


  597. Damn right she should have. Frickin’ bitch wants a babysitter, he’s there to see his kid, but she, like most women nowadays, expect the man to serve them.


  598. Chuck:

    comparing cuckolding to the male version of rape is a bad characterization. its obviously more akin to thievery or robbery

    Rape IS thievery or robbery. Rape is robbery of sex, which is the quintessential female resource. Paternity fraud is thievery of the equivalent male resources.

    If you have trouble seeing rape as theft, I recommend reading Baumeister, R.F. & Vohs, K.D. (2004). Sexual Economics: Sex as Female Resource for Exchange in Heterosexual Interactions. Personality and Social Psychology Review, 8, 339-363. See my blog for how to find it.

    That said, one could argue, as some do, that false accusations of rape really is the most apt moral equivalent of rape of the things women do to men. But false accusations are actually much worse than rape when they succeed, it seems to me, and so is potentially paternity fraud because it could mean the man does not get to reproduce at all.

    And with what passes for “rape” today, under current feminist jurisprudence, as in what is usually understood by “date rape,” or the Norwegian invention of negligent rape without mens rea, date fraud is in fact most on a par with rape, i.e. when a woman refuses to have sex after leading a man on and letting him spend money on her.

    lurker:

    As any feminazi will tell you, “rape is about power.” So is cuckholding; it is power over a man’s livlihood.

    Feminazis will tell you that for hateful ideological reasons, but they are wrong. Rape no more about power than robbing banks is about guns or visiting a brothel is about the urge to give money to women. Rape is of course about sex. Get A NATURAL HISTORY OF RAPE by Thornhill & Palmer (MIT Press, 2000) and read chapters 5-6 for a thorough refutation of this most invidious and demeaning of feminist lies.


  599. High IQ men who are good looking and socially assertive get more pussy than good looking men with low IQ. But we have celebrate the Bill Clinton lifestyle to make it effective. Just the other day I asked out a hot married chick who’s hubby is studly in looks but is a loser. The gleam in her eyes and glow on her face said it all but it was especially the change in her breathing pattern that showed her excitment. The problem is that I got to her 2 late. She has 2 kids who could otherwise be crippled with loser traits.

    Ceteris peribus, the status of high-IQ careers is valued more by women than their martial vows. Paternity laws suck in that this could come back to haunt me. Hopefully I can spread enough seed to make up for the prisoners knocking up drunk chicks who should know better. It is the quality of cuckoldry that we should be worried about.


  600. Arpagus, I do agree; I’m just using the feminists own illogic against them. But it really is sill of me, ’cause they’ll just change the rules.


  601. MPT: It’s for the children.


  602. on May 13, 2009 at 1:18 am Comment Ninja

    It blows me away that the columnist is equating cuckoldry with hospital error and suggesting that there is nothing different between the two.

    Newsflash: in the case of hospital error, the wife is not (necessarily) an untrustworthy deceitful whore.


  603. “Rape IS thievery or robbery.”

    Sure, but are thievery or robbery rape? It’s easy to see paternity fraud as thievery or robbery, but its not so easy to see it as rape if we use the traditional legal definition of rape, which is unwanted sexual contact.

    to get pedantic, the man fucked the woman of his own accord. she lied to him about paternity, thereby defrauding him, but there is no *rape*.

    comparing this to “male rape” has the same literal meaning as the phrase “raping the land”. i mean, unless you’re fucking the soil, it’s merely hyperbole, much like roissy’s “male rape”.

    i get the comparison, but it is merely a literary device. it seems that many here actually believe paternity fraud is “rape” in the legal sense.

    “Rape is robbery of sex, which is the quintessential female resource. Paternity fraud is thievery of the equivalent male resources.”

    equalizing each gender’s resources does not mean one can equalize the infractions upon those resources.

    if argentina’s quintessential resource is iron and cancun, mexico’s quintessential resource is pretty beaches and tropical climates, each locales resources would be confiscated by different means, straight up thievery in the case of argentinian iron and pollution, arson, etc in the case of Cancun.

    paternity fraud is just that, fraud.


  604. This is your life…and its ending one minute at a time.


  605. on May 13, 2009 at 1:54 am Marcus Aureliette

    lurker:
    Stupid= thinking a man cheating is the same as a woman cheating.

    For a lot of good (in the sense usually meant on this board) women, the price of their fidelity is their man’s fidelity. You’re not entitled to one without the other. You may not like that, but it’s true.

    doug:
    I’d let any cheating wife go.

    And I wouldn’t blame you one bit. I’d do the same to a cheating husband.

    tood:
    Who else is a woman here? You better answer, all of you.
    I think Nicole is the only one who will truly be fair here. Where is Nicole when you need her?

    Already answered with my support of MPT. And Nicole is the only one who’ll be fair? WTF?!

    The best insurance is the combo of 1) pre-nup, and 2) marrying a woman who makes the same or more than you. Then, your risk, while not zero, is much less.

    This is sound advice for either sex. If you’re a well-earning person, it’s only wise to protect yourself.


  606. Sure, but are thievery or robbery rape? It’s easy to see paternity fraud as thievery or robbery, but its not so easy to see it as rape if we use the traditional legal definition of rape, which is unwanted sexual contact.

    The traditional definition of rape is not merely unwanted sexual contact (that would be the feminist definition, which also includes activity unwanted merely in retrospect and all sorts of sexual contact which is not sex — under Norwegian law e.g. rubbing a penis against a woman’s stomach is sufficient) but intercourse against her will ACCOMPLISHED by force, in other words the woman has to resist to the best of her ability unless she or someone she commonly protects probably will get killed or seriously injured (in contrast, any threat is sufficient under current law around here, even perfectly legitimate threats such as breaking up with the woman if she won’t have sex!).

    I see your point that calling paternity fraud rape is mostly a literary device, an analogy, but please don’t call any merely unwanted sexual contact rape like the feminists do. I you believe all unwanted sexual contact is rape, then you are a feminist.

    And considering how trivial most of what the feminists call rape is, rape is probably too mild a word for paternity fraud and so should be avoided — I concur.

    if argentina’s quintessential resource is iron and cancun, mexico’s quintessential resource is pretty beaches and tropical climates, each locales resources would be confiscated by different means, straight up thievery in the case of argentinian iron and pollution, arson, etc in the case of Cancun.

    You don’t really confiscate anything by pollution and arson. You merely destroy it. Rape is about taking something from the woman (with only instrumental damage) for your own benefit, as is paternity fraud about taking something from the man, and in that sense they are comparable, whereas comparing either to arson is as nonsensical as the feminist delusion that rape is motivated by power and violence.


  607. Suddenly, one starts to see the logic in foreign traditions such as “honor killings”. Funny how the MSM has been brainwashing us to see this as barbaric evil. Deeper examination reveals this was those socities’ way of punishing the cheaters, and keeping the monogamous order healthy and alive.


  608. Comment Ninja
    It blows me away that the columnist is equating cuckoldry with hospital error and suggesting that there is nothing different between the two.

    Newsflash: in the case of hospital error, the wife is not (necessarily) an untrustworthy deceitful whore.

    I guess mathematically Carolyn Hax is saying that being an untrustworthy deceitful whore is null. i.e. Not important.


  609. Anony, from upthread:

    Presumption of guilt cuts deep. Imagine how you’d feel toward your state if you were presumed guilty, and had to prove your innocence.

    This is idiotic.

    One:
    A paternity test is a neutral entity. It “presumes” NEITHER innocence NOR guilt.
    It is black or white. There is no “significance level” or “preponderance of the evidence” or “reasonable doubt” standard that implies ANY presumption.

    When I was a college athlete, we were all tested for drugs. Does that “presume” that all athletes are juicing? Or is it merely quality control?

    Two:
    The indiscriminate application of the paternity tests to EVERYONE, ironically, ELIMINATES any stigma associated with the tests.

    If one particular group of women – say, upwardly mobile white women – were singled out for mandatory testing, then you’d have something there with your “stigma” thing.

    Three:
    The NEED to establish paternity dwarfs your poor wittle hurt feewings, thousandfold.

    which is worse:
    (1) subjecting cuckolded husbands to deception, uncertainty, wage slavery, and unknowing genetic extinction, or
    (2) making some over-sensitive women feel “not trusted”, but ultimately vindicating all the women who aren’t cheating whores?

    Hmm. Tough one, that.


  610. Xsplat:

    That’s a load. My current GF is Muslim. And my other current one is also. Girls are girls are girls are girls are girls.

    Muslims in minority-Muslim, Western countries != Muslims in majority-Muslim countries.


  611. on May 13, 2009 at 2:35 am HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO

    “I’m writing to you because I don’t know who else to ask
    friendless

    but for a number of reasons I
    insisted on self denial

    I have not confronted
    fearful

    I am with the women in this one. Guys like this must suffer. And be wiped out from the gene pool.”

    I would agree, but keep in mind how bad a hit masculinity has taken in our society. When 40% of children grow up in single parent homes of which the majority are single-mothers, and when men are betaized from birth and alpha characteristics are strongly discouraged in favor of raising spineless gentlemen women think they want, you can hardly blame the guy. I would contest that there are very few natural betas, but that most men would be reaching or exceeding the current “alpha threshold” if they were simply socialized properly.


  612. Arpagus:

    yes, rape involves intercourse of some kind, either vaginally, anally, or orally. the other stuff is sexual assualt or something along those lines.

    yes, rape is an overused definition applied for many things that don’t constitute rape, i agree. the same goes for the analogy of paternity fraud as “male rape”.


  613. Xsplat:

    Society is based on people, and the best people have the best genes. The alphas tend to have the best genes. All animals know that, including female human animals.

    Either you’re trolling, or you’re a complete moron. At your age, and with some of your previous trenchant observations about humanity, I doubt it’s the latter, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just stirring the pot a bit.

    The only reason we even have “society” is because the strictures of Judeo-Christian culture have allowed beta males to procreate, and beta morals to predominate. The reason society has not decayed, though, is because these beta morals have been enforced with an iron fist, until recent times.
    (Not “beta” in the derisive Roissy sense, but, rather, “beta” in the “self-sacrificing for the good of society” sense.)

    With the exception of some very religious alphas:
    * Alphas don’t create technology.
    * Alphas don’t enact, promote, and enforce laws that protect society at the expense of individual licentiousness.
    * Alphas don’t further science and higher learning.
    * Etc. Alphas don’t further “society”.

    A society ruled completely by alpha genes will regress quickly to sub-Saharan / British underclass / ghetto norms.

    Do you really think that a society of people largely endorsing your particular moral stances could stay afloat?
    Think about your own country, Indonesia. Were it not for the legacy of (a) Dutch rule (founded on beta Judeo-Christian principles), (b) Japanese rule, and (c) oil to power engines invented by betas, your country would be 237 million destitute untouchables in dirt hovels. Many would be alphas, but alphas in untouchable dirt hovels.

    Idiot.


  614. on May 13, 2009 at 2:46 am Comment_Whatever

    Chuck said:

    if you have a system (HBD) which realizes the ugly truth of things, and you accept the alpha and even aspire to fill that role, you can’t also have sympathy for the beta. the beta is beta by definition of the alpha. without alpha, there is no beta. the terms are relative.

    I’m surprised, Chuck, that you’ve never been in a situation where you felt two things, each intense, each very different, about the same thing.

    1.Most here recognize that sexual hedonism is bad for society.

    2.They also believe that it is good for them, as individuals.

    3.Or, to say it better, they believe it is the best they can do.

    And that’s three things right there. Worry, perhaps, over the effect on society. Lust for the conquests they will have, and the feeling of regret over the loss implied by the third statement.

    So being of two minds on something is easy, Chuck! Three isn’t that hard either.

    *Doing my part to help thread-count reach 900.


  615. Suddenly, one starts to see the logic in foreign traditions such as “honor killings”.

    Now you see how Islam wins so many people over. including people who used to be appalled by Islam (such as I).

    What we have learned from this thread so far :

    1) The majority of women want to get away with cuckolding. They can scarcely conceal their wishes.
    2) Cuckolding is just about the worst thing that a woman can do to a man.
    3) Kick a friendly dog enough, and eventually you have a mean dog. Discovery of cuckolding can turn a placid, polite Beta male into a raging madman quite capable of slashing the woman’s throat.
    4) Large-scale cuckolding will make many men quietly approving of violence against women.

    Women are playing a dangerous game here. Traditional religions knew about this, and had rules for it (aside from Islam, burning at the stake or the equivalent was prevalent in both Christianity and Hinduism).


  616. yes, rape involves intercourse of some kind, either vaginally, anally, or orally. the other stuff is sexual assualt or something along those lines.

    Oral intercourse? That is the first time I’ve heard that. Even the feminists I’ve read don’t call oral sex intercourse, but they do consider it rape, and I have a real problem with that. Oral sex is of far less value to me than sex, and so I don’t accept that it can qualify as the ultimate in terms of negative sexual value for women.


  617. I think many commentators on this have an exaggerated paranoia that reveals morbid jealousy. Morbid jealousy is not good.

    Only about 4% of the US births is “cuckholdry” Unless you’re a clueless dipshit the chances of this happening to you are small.

    All the married women I’ve been banging were married to dweebs. Usually they are fat or their wives claim they are “impotent” although I suspect that they just aren’t attracted to them.

    Women tend to do this (seeking outside sex) in their mid 30′s – right when their eggs are going bad. I think it is either a rational or evolutionary adaptation to accelerate their stud stalking to get good seed in their aging womb.


  618. Arpagus:

    if you stick your dick in a woman’s (or man’s) mouth (probably not a wise move), it would be rape, sure.

    when i think of the word intercourse i think of an object physically entering one’s body.

    either way, to keep this from getting too pedantic, rape is penetrating someone against their will. these are to be differentiated from sexual assault or sexual battery.


  619. lurker said:

    >A woman who cheats has lost her value…

    A woman who cheats has lost some of her value. That of a long-term mate. On the other hand a desirable woman who is known to have cheated is probably an easier lay.


  620. Aspargus said:

    “… but they do consider it (oral intercourse) rape, and I have a real problem with that. ”

    Hmmm… I’m trying to think which guy I’d rather be in that Deliverance movie, the piggy ride boy or the one with the pretty mouth…


  621. Surprised that no one has commented on this little excerpt in the original post:

    Their marriage would remain strong, or at least viable, as they made arrangements with the hospital to find their true baby and swap kids with the other victimized family who mistakenly got their kid.

    Two years after a hospital error, I wouldn’t “swap kids”. I would just suddenly have an adopted daughter.
    This would be cool with me.

    Of course, I’m positively biased toward adoption, and I’m (perhaps wrongly) assuming that the wife in question is young enough to bear another, biological child(ren) without much trouble.

    I wouldn’t want to “swap” for a kid with two years of mystery parenting.
    Especially given the near-100% chance that the mystery parents would be ill-educated, liberal, indulgent morons who already would’ve compromised the child’s mental wherewithal.
    No sir.


  622. on May 13, 2009 at 5:29 am HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO

    “Suddenly, one starts to see the logic in foreign traditions such as “honor killings”.

    Now you see how Islam wins so many people over. including people who used to be appalled by Islam (such as I).

    What we have learned from this thread so far :

    1) The majority of women want to get away with cuckolding. They can scarcely conceal their wishes.
    2) Cuckolding is just about the worst thing that a woman can do to a man.
    3) Kick a friendly dog enough, and eventually you have a mean dog. Discovery of cuckolding can turn a placid, polite Beta male into a raging madman quite capable of slashing the woman’s throat.
    4) Large-scale cuckolding will make many men quietly approving of violence against women.

    Women are playing a dangerous game here. Traditional religions knew about this, and had rules for it (aside from Islam, burning at the stake or the equivalent was prevalent in both Christianity and Hinduism).”

    lol, just curious, but did you get the line in #3 from Devlin?

    Obviously we can’t go back to honor-killing, it’s not much better than the current divorce-rape in it’s barbarity. The solutions are deceptively simple. Change the way people think and shame the fuck out of these women, remove financial obligation from men to children that aren’t theirs, and make paternity testing easier and more accessible, possibly mandatory. I just solved cuckoldry.


  623. on May 13, 2009 at 5:45 am Comment Ninja

    JERRDOG: “Only about 4% of the US births is “cuckholdry” Unless you’re a clueless dipshit the chances of this happening to you are small.”

    This assumes that 4% is an accurate figure. Stats are often under-reported. This is especially true for something as stigmatizing as cuckholdry. Most people are going to be reluctant to report these things, so the figures may actually be higher than 4%.

    It’ll take something like Roissy’s suggestion for mandatory paternity testing to suss out what the true figure is.


  624. A little while back Chic observed that “Betas take a bit of a beating here”. Meaning that perhaps we and possibly others in the seduction community whip up on the Beta Males of the world a bit too much. Perhaps she has a point.

    Nevertheless, from all that I’ve personally read from Chic herself, she would NOT choose to go out w/a Beta Male, and neither would the vast majority of the ladies who regularly post here. Most of them have clearly stated their preferences, and Beta Males aint it.

    Chic has also said, not long after she made the remark referred to above, to Dave Alex, that he would be unsatisfactory because “he couldn’t protect her”. Now I personally don’t have a problem either way w/Chic’s or any other Woman’s preferences. My point is that most of us would agree that Dave Alex is basically a good guy. But as we all know, being a “good guy” ain’t enough.

    Chic has rightly pointed out that in our time, which is really unprecendented, Women can determine who they will partner with, devoid of economic considerations. In other words, we get to see what Women *really want*. And over the past 30-40 years, I think its fair to say that the jury is in. Beta Males, for the most part, need not apply. That’s not *me* saying that, that’s what Women are saying, all day, everyday.

    The harsh truth is that Chic and other ladies will drop their drawers for the Roissys of the world a heck of a lot faster than for the Dave Alex’s. Again, I’m cool w/who a Woman chooses. But we need to be brutally honest about who they choose and why.

    If Women wanted a different tune to be sung on the mating front, they could change it overnight by simply signalling that which they preferred. They don’t, because, as Whiskey has astutely noted, they can afford the downsides-and there ARE downsides-of hooking up with the Alphas of the world. Amy and Heather can afford it outright in the form of their self supporting salaries; Shaniqua and Lourdes can afford it in the form of the Welfare State picking up the tab after the party’s over. In either case, the Betas are left out in the cold, unless they’re tapped to help pick up the pieces. That’s not the way the Betas would prefer it-thats the why the Women themselves would prefer it.

    So, I’m not inclined to beat up too much on the Beta Guys of the world-every Man can’t have leading man looks, mad charisma, or towering height-instead I put the blame where it belongs, on those whom Nature has deemed is the Decider in who gets to hook up and who does not-Women.
    O


  625. on May 13, 2009 at 6:01 am Comment Ninja

    OBSIDIAN: “instead I put the blame where it belongs, on those whom Nature has deemed is the Decider in who gets to hook up and who does not-Women.”

    As a famous pua guru repeatedly says: attraction is not a choice. If this is true, then women can’t really help what it is that they are attracted to anymore than men can be attracted to youthful, bouncy boobs. Blame is counter-productive.

    What we should be asking ourselves is this: what sort of a society do we want to have? We should then acknowledge that men and women have innate differences and try to work towards that sort of society with full knowledge of our limitations and sex-differences. I see at least three obstacles for accomplishing this:

    1. Feminism: by holding onto the belief that men and women are ‘equal’ in every way and failing to acknowledge the obvious differences, feminism is preventing us from creating a society in which sex differences are acknowledged.

    2. Scientific illiteracy: unacceptably high numbers of people in North America don’t even believe in evolution.

    3. Politicians: the people who rise to prominent positions of power will necessarily pander to the people mentioned in 1 and 2. This means that for the forseeable future, we’re fucked.


  626. I’d also like to reiterate a point I made earlier wrt JerrDogg’s suggestion, going back to what I call the “numerical” argument wrt Paternity Fraud:

    The issue isn’t number of occurance, but rather the nature of the crime and its impact on the body politic. As Whiskey has noted, the relatively small number of cases-which we can’t know for certain until MPT becomes a reality-are enough to “sour” the pool of Women in general, because Men overall will begin to seriously question whether they can be trusted. Which to my mind stands as yet another reason why Women should be all for MPT, so as to restore trust and faith on the part of Men overall toward them. Fighting it only makes matters worse, especially for those Women who are indeed on the up and up.

    Look, if we go down the path of *how many* cases of this has happened, versus the *nature* of the crime itself, we’ll end up in a world of hurt-how many Bernie Madoffs do we need before we say that what he did was wrong in extremis?

    O


  627. Comment Ninja,
    Yes, I am familiar w/the axiom you noted and is not in dispute in this line of inquiry. However, as we’re quoting key ideas of Game Theory, you might be familiar w/an axiom from another famed PUA, which states that Women are inherently incapable of taking personal responsibility for their actions (Mystery Method)? Hence the oft-repeated line “he seduced me”. Wink and nod.

    And this is the crux of the matter-accountability, personal responsibility. What Feminism has done, intentionally or otherwise, is made it so that Women get all the joy and none of the guilt. Which works against every bit of hardwon wisdom ever known to human beings-how can one be both free and blamless? Indeed, isn’t a pre-requisite of freedom, responsibilities? Yet Women enmasse demand one and vehemently resist the other, and this is writ large in just about every major “talking point” in their agenda, from the so-called Glass Ceiling and Pay Wage Gap to Abortion. All bennies, no paying the piper.

    It’s the same deal here-Women want to choose the Alphas w/no appreciable downside, hence roping in Betas outright, or, failing that, roping the rest of us taxpayers collectively in the form of the Welfare state. MPT is about accountability, for the freely chosen actions done in private-no one is trying to restrict her choices. Only that she be held accountable for them.

    O


  628. Coming in late to the game again as usual.

    P.S. Too bad there’s not a test where a woman can test her husband’s DNA for children produced outside the marriage. Big difference I’m sure as she is not “paying” for them; or is she? Just a different type of payment. A payment called life, time, and trust wasted with lying cheater.

    Sara, Sara, Sara,

    This is not a blog about poor women who’ve been cheated on and are stuck with a kid.

    At least she knows whose child it is.

    A man who is cuckolded (what a great word, nice to see it coming back into use, btw), does not know if the child is his. There are a lot of men who suspect their children aren’t theirs, and have admitted a preference for not confirming their suspicions.

    In any case, there are too many men out there who pay for children they didn’t father.

    Not a way to inspire confidence in the fairer gender now, is it?


  629. Knowing human nature as I do – the angriness of the woman’s ouburst at that point would be a solid indicator of the test results.

    HR Lincoln, I’d be really pissed at the suggestion just on principle, and I’ve never cheated.

    Mind you, I believe that a DNA/paternity test at birth or if you have to get an amniocentesis done should be mandatory. Since DNA screening for genetic defects is done at birth in quite a few places is the rule rather than the exception (here in Oz, anyway), what’s one more test?


  630. Comment Ninja,
    Furthermore:
    Just to pickup on your point above-I as a Man, cannot help that I’m turned on sexually by a voluptuous Woman-but I CAN help how I choose to respond to said Woman, and the actions I take going forward. Attraction is one thing, *acting on it* is something else. A very important, key distinction we need to keep in mind here. Women may not be able to help who they’re attracted to, but they can help what they choose to do about it.

    O


  631. OMW, sensible, as often

    I don’t even see what all the heat is about here. Women, if you’ve got nothing to hide, all a paternity test does is pay for a little domestic peace of mind.

    Guys, if you’re either practically or ideologically concerned about it, you can get it done pretty cheap on your own.

    As for the State, it cares about none of you. It exists to serve its own ends.

    My comment is on your last sentence, about the state. We have a similar attitude.

    I know many people want the state to reflect their interests, and that is the essense of participatory politics. I don’t happen to believe in it. I’m deeply cynical about political and economic systems, and advocate opting out as completely as possible from other peoples systems of power.

    Game the system, game women, game your brain, game everything. Everything is an operating system, susceptible to hacks and tweaks and viruses. Playing the game by the rules, trying to change the system – I don’t see rewards versus effort as practical.

    Government is not by the people and for the people. I’d like to say it has never been and will never be, but it seems that’s getting trite. So I’ll say that I can’t see how such a government is compatible with our hard wired human nature. I believe such a government to be a genetic impossibility.


  632. on May 13, 2009 at 6:36 am Cannon's Canon

    ‘Chuck’ is telling himself like a dog with a flush hand of fleas. This is the entity who reflexivly insulted my gene pool for defending the possibility that mike tyson did not rape his purported partner. His alliance lies above his dalliance.


  633. Nilk,
    If I may, Sara is indicative of just how alien it is to so many Women to grasp the Male side of the evolutionary ledger. Recently I was talking w/a lady and shared w/her the fact that while roughly 80% (read, almost ALL) Women who ever lived has gone on to reproduce, only *half as many* Men did. Even accounting for shortened lifespans due to disease, harsh work and wars, the fact remains that Women ultimately choose who will climb between their thighs, and when given the choice most Men simply will not make it.

    My ladyfriend simply could not accept what I was telling her, even though I backed up what I said in the form of internet links to various scholars in the field of evo-psych/bio, anthropology and so on. Its completely understandable-Women, almost all of them, *constantly* have to fend off offers, the vast majority of them unwarranted, for sex from Men, while the *vast majority* of Men get laid, at best, about a dozen times a year-about once a month. That’s if they’re lucky. If guys really told the truth that number probably drops even more.

    Getting sex is no big whup for Women, you know this. But its a BIG DEAL for most guys, because its so hard to do-and hence why Studs get so much dap from the Brotherhood, while Women with a history are derided as sluts. One reason why is because its nothing to simply lay back and spread your legs, just about any Woman can do that.

    Anyway…

    O


  634. But its a BIG DEAL for most guys, because its so hard to do

    This statement should be refined to indicate that getting sex from attractive women is hard for most guys.


  635. I agree, Obsidian, and it’s eternally frustrating for me.

    I know women who are happy to discuss how they’ll turn the tap off in the bedroom if the other half doesn’t do what they want, women who’ve cheated and will rationalise it away with comments about how they just couldn’t help themselves, and the usual fluffy crap.

    However, I can’t have a discussion with them about the other side of the story – as a rule, women just cannot get their heads around it. (I’m a freak – both male and female friends agree on this, as do the blokes at work lol).

    It’s too confronting, and women tend not to be capable of the necessary emotional detachment to dig into the differences between us.


  636. I just feel like if a man doesn’t trust that his supposed child is his, then he should ask for a paternity test on his own. I think that there are plenty of couples who don’t need MPT in place. If you really want to know, then fucking ask. Or do it on your own when the woman is gone. It seems like the consensus here is that it’s so easy and accessible to just do it, then….do it. But there’s no reason to make it mandatory. If you’re so alpha, then why do you need the government to step in when it’s just so easy to do it on your own?


  637. If you’re so alpha, then why do you need the government to step in when it’s just so easy to do it on your own?

    An ounce of prevention, etc.

    Women will respond to a firm hand, whether the hand is that of their man or their government.
    If such laws are in place, then women who are otherwise devoid of morals will (at least sometimes) be deterred from getting knocked up by the pool boy, because They Know They Won’t Get Away With It.

    The goal is not just to identify and ostracize cuckoldresses, but, even better, to PREVENT cuckoldry in the first place, via the spectre of guaranteed detection.

    Why is this so hard to understand?


  638. 87,

    I think if you make it clear to your SO, which it seems like a lot of people on here have done, that you’re going to expect a paternity test from early on then it’d have the same effect.


  639. 87,

    I think if you make it clear to your SO, which it seems like a lot of people on here have done, that you’re going to expect a paternity test from early on then it’d have the same effect.

    “A lot of people on here” are alphas, or at least alphas within the context of relationships.
    If the average American man had the stones to do that, then the legislation wouldn’t be necessary.


  640. It’s absolutely jaw-dropping how widely approved rape is on this site (just like at the-niceguy.com’s forums where being anti-rape is considered trolling and a bannable offense). All this factually incorrect nonsense about cuckoldry being exactly like rape, or rape not being a big deal, reveals exactly what people here think about rape. For now, the anti-feminism movement will just imply and insinuate things, and casually trivialize rape, but it’s easy to see what they really have in mind. The posters here would absolutely de-criminalize rape (and any other legal protections that women have) if they somehow could. The anti-feminism movement (and related parties) is nothing but a shallow front for nihilistic misogynism, violence and anarchy. Both feminists and anti-feminists seek to destroy modern civilization, and it makes no difference which side wins.

    I was not greatly suprised to discover that no one, with the exception of me and whiskey, had any objections towards the post where johnnymarks fantasizes about throwing acid on the face of an unfaithful woman, and “[pouring] a bottle of professional strength liquid drano into her whore-hole until it rotted out her uterus.” When someone posts something on this site that others deem objectionable, they will waste no time responding, but there was no response this time. Why would there be, when everyone is in agreement?

    I like how many posters still keep insisting that it’s the women who have no morals.

    doug1

    OK, which of you would say that to your intended?

    If not, why not?

    If I feel that a paternity test is essential, it means I don’t trust my wife, and if I don’t trust her then there’s no point in being with her.

    And I condemn neither. Neither is “guilty”. I have fucked married women, and will continue to do so. I’ve been cheated on, and expect more off that. It’s neither right nor wrong.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

    NO woman is not a cheating devilish whore. Not one.

    This new learning amazes me, sir doug1! Explain to me again how sheep’s bladders may be employed to determine that not even a single woman out of billions is absolutely faithful.

    They’re wrong.

    They cannot be wrong, because it’s entirely a matter of personal preference.

    xsplat

    I hate hate hate with a vengeance and despise good people.

    Hate them.

    Blame has nothing to do with it. Right and wrong is useless commentary.

    The only thing that matters is pragmatism. What to do.

    Men and women have different agendas. Neither is right, nor wrong. Right and wrong is a linguistic human social concept. The man has an agenda. He can take steps to promote his agenda. Blame and shame can work for him, but on the whole, there is no blame and shame.

    You belong in a mental institution (but then, the same could be said for most people here).


  641. Well, what does it matter if another man is supporting/raising a child that isn’t his own because he didn’t do a paternity test? How exactly does that affect you? It doesn’t. If you want to make sure you’re not in that situation, then you should perform a paternity test. But there is no reason to make everyone do it.


  642. Well, what does it matter if another man is supporting/raising a child that isn’t his own because he didn’t do a paternity test? How exactly does that affect you? It doesn’t.

    To paraphrase Niemöller, “First they came for the cuckolds, and I did not speak out because I was not a cuckold.”
    Etc.

    Those of us who value Western civilization are up against a group (feminists) that uses legislation to achieve its ends.

    You can’t fight increasingly encroaching legislation with head-in-the-sand rugged individualism.
    Fire must be fought with fire, if society is not to perish before it is reformed.


  643. It’s not the end of the world if the kid IS his or is not. Is it? Or is it? No. It’s not. It might FEEL like the end of the world, if she’s not, but eventually he will realize that his wife is only human and flawed at that, just like HE is. Only he’s flawed or delusional in other ways. It’s that ego shattering thing we talked about earlier. Relationships have a way of shattering our egos, if we let them. I’m talking about having a healthy ego; not one that’s too strong or weak.

    By that reasoning, Sara, a man should just build that bridge and get over himself. After all, he’s just as flawed as she is.

    Excuse me if I disagree with that.

    Sure, we’re all flawed, but presumably we’re grown up enough to be able to rein in our base animal urges.

    If one half of a couple either can’t or won’t control themselves, then that may – and probably will – destroy the relationship.

    I see no reason to cheat. If you want someone other than your partner, then leave them. That’s it.

    A woman who conceives a child outside the marriage is perpetrating a massive fraud that damages all parties when it is uncovered.

    But, since his wife is flawed, that’s okay.

    Like the fellow who found out both children of his marriage weren’t his. Well, he knew definitely that the older child was – he figured the younger was, but refused to go further because he still loved them after so many years raising them.


  644. 87,

    I get what you’re saying. I feel like the intention of MPT is selfish in most people’s cases on here though. If you are really campaigning for it because you don’t want to see your fellow male get burned, then that’s fine, but it seems like most people are in it for themselves, in which case they should take action themselves and not leave it to the government.


  645. There is simply no way I could continue to support, monetarily or otherwise, kids I know, for a fact, are not my own, genetically. Moreover, I could not continue in good faith supporting them, and by extension their mother, after having found out that I was lied to, perhaps for years. To do so is to add insult to injury.

    Every Man alive has every inalienable right to look out for and protect his interests-emotionally, socially, legally, genetically, financially-and we have only ourselves to blame when we refuse to protect said interests under some cockamamie “reasoning” that, because I’ve been raising them this long, they’re “my” kids no matter what. Everytime I see such a display from a weak excuse from a Man it makes me physically ill.

    Men must have the backbone to turn off their emotions like a light switch, wish the mommy good luck in finding the real baby daddy, and be Audi 5000. There is nothing wrong in the least in doing this, indeed, there is EVERYTHING RIGHT in doing it.

    Only when more Men start doing this will Women begin to think long and hard about spreading her legs, because she knows that she’ll be alone when the party’s over and the music stops.

    And Kim…

    You still have not madena cogent case for any of your counter arguments against MPT; all you have done to date is make appeals to assertion. Simply saying something is so does not make it so. I thought Feminists were more reasoned thinkers.

    Then again, perhaps not.

    Please explain, clarify and elaborate your positions?

    O


  646. Lurker

    Yep, ask any man who’s been cheated on—-wait, they don’t talk about it, right? Because its emasculating: emabrassing, makes him seem like less of a man. Because his wife is calling out his betaness for all the world to see.

    A woman who cheats blames her man–and never feels bad, except in fleeting moments.

    Nonsense and naive nonsense. You think like a man, and I don’t mean that as a complement. You think only like a man. Just a feminist with no ability to see the male perspective is blinkered, your thinking process is male-morality-blinkered.

    I’ve been cheated on a few times. My lover once left me to go get married. She’d then call me up and complain of crying all night, and of thinking of me when fucking her husband. Another time a loveless rental-wife left me after I started cheating a bit. Another time some chick I was trying to get serious with was toying with me, for giggles and the desire for cash. Another time I was having non-monogamous serious long term relationships, and the girls considered it fair play.

    Get over yourself, Lurker. You take yourself far far too seriously. It’s just fucking around. The pain passes. No harm, no foul.


  647. And it’s the attitude of Tood and Lurker and others who want fidelity while also wanting game that will get in their own way. You’ll trip over yourself, maintaining such a serious, romantic attitude.

    Women can smell clinginess. You care too much.


  648. on May 13, 2009 at 8:37 am richmondbachelor

    I’m convinced tood is a virgin.

    Possibly also lurker.


  649. 87,
    You’re refinement on my statement is so noted; however, as Roissy himself has noted, the massive social, technological and economic changes that have come down the pike in the past four decades have artificially inflated the sexual marketplace value on Women who would be at best 5s, 6s and 7s on said market; they in effect, act as though their 8s, 9s and even 10s because of their increased marketshare power and, at the same time, decreased power on the Male side. Result? Said Women can afford to act in such a way that it makes getting sex from them almost as hard as it is/was from the true Dimes of the world.

    And so, my general proposition holds: for most Men walking around, getting sex from that 80% of Women is no small feat, and the numbers indicate this is so-only 40%, that’s less than half, of all Men who ever lived, actually reproduced themselves. Not all sex leads to pregnancy and childbirth fair enough; but the stat is enough to go on to give us a pucture of just how tough it is for Men to get sex from *most* Women in our time now, when Women, from the homely to the comely, can *afford* to be choosy.

    Your serve…

    O


  650. “And I agree with chic here,
    A man getting cuckolded is the moral equivalent of a woman getting secretly implanted with another woman’s fertilized egg, giving birth to it, and raising it for eighteen years
    I’ve never discussed this with another woman before but something tells me that this won’t bother a woman as much as it would bother a man.

    I suspect most women would raise and nurture the implanted embryo like her own.”

    Most women probably would, Anony. There’s a reason so much emphasis is placed on the mother-child pairing. It’s one of the most powerful there is.

    No man can ever understand the feeling of another person growing inside you. Sure our bodies get fat, after a couple of years of breastfeeding we get a bit saggy and then there are the stretchmarks, but you know what?

    As powerful as men are, they can only help conceive a new life. They can’t protect it, or nurture it or help it develop to the stage where a child is born.

    This doesn’t mean their feelings towards their own children are less important – just that they’re different.

    When my girl was a preschooler, I used to take her to the indoor playground to catch up with my friends who also had little tackers.

    One thing that always amazed me was that the place could be full of screaming kids, and I could be sitting with my back to the room, but I always heard my girl cry.

    A woman should always know the child she gave birth to.

    A man rarely has that sort of confidence. Especially in this day and age of elastic morality.

    Heh. And re Roissy’s comment about children taking after their fathers? My girl has only a faint resemblence to me. So faint that I was once asked what the relationship between us was. The look on the woman’s face when I just said, “Birth” was priceless.

    The child is a dead ringer for her father. One look at him and there is no doubt at all. MPT? Who needs it?


  651. OMW

    MRAs don’t want equality, though– they crave supremacy. Bitches ain’t shit.

    Equality is craved only by underdogs. Top dogs no longer have any need for it.


  652. Obsidian,

    It doesn’t really matter what I say because you’ll never agree with it or understand my position on it. I think I’ve explained why I think MPT is unnecessary. I think men who want to have physical proof that a child is theirs should just ask or do the paternity test themselves. There is no reason to get the government involved. Grow a pair and ask, if you’re too scared to like the man in Roissy’s original post then oh well, that’s a personal problem.

    This outlook that all women are cheating whores is so bleak and depressing that it doesn’t even make sense why a lot of people on here would want to get involved with women beyond fucking around if they feel that way.


  653. Tupac Chopra

    from a purely Darwinistic view, perhaps the cuckolded man *should* be forced to pay for the other man’s child. this would reallocate resources to a more socially and reproductive optimal end, the Cad’s.

    This is expat’s position, but as Whiskey points out, it is the high IQ betas that push civilizational progress forward.

    I disagree with Whiskey that Alphas are low IQ thugs. I think todays Alphas include a variety of upper-echelon people, and that generally sociaties top dogs are mentally superior.

    I understand that some aspergergy engineers have a bit of trouble with the chicks, but think Whiskeys case is hugely overstated. Engineers get married easily enough. Most betas are not that bright. Bright people tend to do just fine with women. Societies top dogs are not all thugs, and women don’t see only the thugs as societies top dogs. Alpha does not equate to stupid thug, it also equates to Jack Kerouac, Carlos Santana, investment bankers, entrepreneurs, and even some engineers.


  654. Why is the rape of a female considered such a horrible crime in the first place?

    Before birth control and legalized abortion, rape was particularly horrifying way of forcing a woman to have a baby from a genetic “donor” she did not want.

    A woman, forced to have a child from the DNA not of her own choosing.

    That is what the crime of rape was really all about.

    To a degree, Dave. It’s also about exerting power over another man’s property.

    Look back a few decades and centuries – women were chattel, and as such under the control of men. This is still the case in a lot of places in the world.

    A woman was given away in marriage to her husband to strengthen and enrich the tribe through offspring.

    Primogeniture ensured that the inheritance after the death of the male head of the family went to the son.

    With women having a physical commitment to the raising of children that men don’t have, this sort of arrangement would have been beneficial to women (gross generalisation here, girls, don’t get too upset).

    War is about power and winning, and to do that you have to take your opponent’s land/money/women.

    It’s just that women can and do actually think, and we don’t think as rationally, or behave as reasonably, as men do.

    of course, I’ve not read all the comments yet, but I should probably start running from the female readers about now lol


  655. Micheal

    Punish both the cheating spouse (and the person they’re cheating with) or punish neither. Don’t go whining to the law to punish one more harshly than the other. If men have the short end of the stick now the answer is not to make women get the short end of the stick but to punish (or not) adultery equally, married cheater and unmarried cheater.

    I tend think if a woman wants a kid – fine – have it. And pay for it yourself, unless you find a man who volunteers to also pay for it.

    I know many people think being a sperm donor implies a parental responsibility, but I disagree. Abortifactants and abortions and birth control have made pregnancy 100% womens choice – it is no longer a case of “it takes two to tango”.

    ONLY if the man decided, from the beginning, that he wants to play dad, does the sperm donor become the father.


  656. 87

    Xsplat:

    That’s a load. My current GF is Muslim. And my other current one is also. Girls are girls are girls are girls are girls.

    Muslims in minority-Muslim, Western countries != Muslims in majority-Muslim countries.

    I’m not following you, 87. I’m in Indonesia now. Lived here a total of about 4 years. Girls are girls are girls are girls. Religion is merely the stories that people tell themselves to explain what they are currently doing – it does not prevent people from doing what they really want.


  657. Comment Whatever

    once you own child support payments in America, unless you hold a FOREIGN passport, you will be deported. You can think that it is possible to disappear in the Third World, but once you use a credit card, it is as easy to find you as if you were in california


  658. 87

    With the exception of some very religious alphas:
    * Alphas don’t create technology.
    * Alphas don’t enact, promote, and enforce laws that protect society at the expense of individual licentiousness.
    * Alphas don’t further science and higher learning.
    * Etc. Alphas don’t further “society”.

    I’m in Indo, 87 – this is not my country. I’m Canadian.

    I disagree that civilization rests on Judeo-Christian foundations. I also disagree with each of your points above.

    Your definition of Alpha and mine are clearly different. For instance, my family background includes what I consider to be the Canadian aristocracy. Business and social leaders. They are alpha, and they contribute hugely. They married the best and brightest women.

    This idea that alphas are thugs is not what I see, and I’m surprised anyone sees that, when looking at whites.


  659. 87

    Those of us who value Western civilization are up against a group (feminists) that uses legislation to achieve its ends.

    You will not find many people on this blog who values Western civilization.

    xsplat

    Equality is craved only by underdogs. Top dogs no longer have any need for it.

    This blog’s self-styled alphas certainly have no need for it, since they want either a lawless free-for-all where they can rape, pillage and murder at will, or a repressive Taliban-like society where bitches stay in line or get an acid facial.

    This idea that alphas are thugs is not what I see, and I’m surprised anyone sees that, when looking at whites.

    Maybe you should pay more attention to this blog’s comments.


  660. 87

    If the average American man had the stones to do that, then the legislation wouldn’t be necessary.

    If some “man” doesn’t have the stones to get a paternity test, then to oblivion with his genes. I have no allegience to wooses. I don’t know why anyone would. My gender are not my allies – their just a bunch of people with dicks.


  661. For a lot of good (in the sense usually meant on this board) women, the price of their fidelity is their man’s fidelity

    you should notice that women’s infidelity is protected by law in the form of child support, alimony and by having the children in a divorce. Men’s infidelity is not.

    as Tupac Chopra said, men’s infidelity doesn’t diminish his hability to be a husband or father, unless he fathers a son outside marriage, which I believe should be harshly punished and those sons highly stygmatyzed, together with their moms

    lastly, women’s infidelity is more widespread, since the fact of having a vagina is usually enough to receive male attention. Men’s infidelity is restricted to a very selected group of men.


  662. the idea that all alphas are thugs that generate negative value for society, while all betas are potential Thomas Edisons is exagerated AT BEST

    Just to give two examples:

    “I am darius and I brought peace to the world”
    “I found Rome as a city of brick and mud and left her as a city of marble”

    The two pacifiers of the world above, Darius the Great and Augustus, were beta or alpha?


  663. Kim,
    It seems that your main opposition to MPT is the spectre of State involvement; your position is that its not necessary. Yet the State IS involved, should the case be that the kid is proven not to be his, but he’s still pressured, under the threat of debtor’s prison, to underwrite the kid and by extension the kid’s mother. So the State is already involved.

    What I and others are merely asking is that the State hold the interests of the putative/duped dad into account as well. All MPT does is ascertain that kids are properly genetically matched to the Men who are presumed to be the dads, nothing more, nothing less. If the Man in question wishes to continue caring for a kid that he discovers is not his own, that is his choice and it should be honored, just as the choice NOT to continue said support and recognition upon finding out the truth.

    In no way does this impinge upon the Wife’s right to say, abort the kid, because as I’ve already noted, she can do that right now w/o the hubbie’s permission or even awareness.

    So again, I fail to see your logic.

    W/all due respect.

    O


  664. I see that Contrarian is upset about being roundly ignored. But if one posts on this blog, one should expect to make logical arguments or else be chastised or ignored. Stuff about how the majority of men on this blog approve of rape because they don’t respond to one or two posts out of literally hundreds is just one example of the utter stupidity and /or disingeniousness that Contrarian is blessed with. I suppose using his/her posts as examples of the how not to argue and how not to post makes them useful for this blog after all.


  665. Gig

    once you own child support payments in America, unless you hold a FOREIGN passport, you will be deported.

    Nonsense. Not paying child support is not an extraditable crime. Also, most, but not all countries have extradition treaties with the US.


  666. It’s amazing yet unsurprising how much the women here support cuckolding.

    Let me restate: cuckolding is the absolutely worst thing that can happen to a man, in terms of his genetic legacy. It is a genetic ZERO for a man. If you want to call it fraud, fine — but it is the worst possible fraud that can ever be committed, because it is a genetic fraud, it is a fraud that makes a man invest in another mans child, to further the genetic destiny of another man against his will and without his knowledge and consent. It is the most vile thing a woman can do to a man, completely evil and base.

    Yet women support it. We know why, ladies. It’s because it’s a part of your wired strategy for mating with the best sperm.

    Fine. We have a solution for that now. For the first time in human history, there is a reliable test that uncovers cuckoldry. Of course women are going to feel threatened viscerally by this — it is the biggest threat to their wired mating strategy since the dawn of the species. A bigger threat even than the imposition of hard monogamy was, because women still managed to cuckold and it was undiscoverable. Not any longer. Medical science scored a big win for men when it invented the DNA paternity test.

    These tests need to be mandatory. Why? Because making them mandatory simply makes it a question of fact. No angsty conversation with the mother. No recriminations or accusations. Just another test among many that are mandatorily done at birth. And let the chips fall where they may.


  667. Not paying child support is not an extraditable crime. Also, most, but not all countries have extradition treaties with the US

    It is not extraditable where it is not a crime. Unfortunately, SWPL mindset is associated with higher standards of living, so that countries without child support tend to be not the best ones on Earth

    You talk about nonsense. Think a little about the countries on Earth that don’t have extradition treaties with the US. Who is talking nonsense now?

    And how precisely you want to LIVE in a foreign country? I am not talking about jobs, but about VISAS. Only the West makes it easy to get one, but for non-westerns.


  668. Clarence

    I see that Contrarian is upset about being roundly ignored.

    I’m upset because in terms of morality this blog’s commenters are about on par with rural Afghanistan or Pakistan. I am ignored because there is nothing they can say in their defense, since their position is indefensible.

    But if one posts on this blog, one should expect to make logical arguments or else be chastised or ignored. Stuff about how the majority of men on this blog approve of rape because they don’t respond to one or two posts out of literally hundreds is just one example of the utter stupidity and /or disingeniousness that Contrarian is blessed with. I suppose using his/her posts as examples of the how not to argue and how not to post makes them useful for this blog after all.

    The post was made very early on, and people are continuously responding to posts which means that they are not being ignored. The only reason why only two people (including me) have responded to johnnymarks’ post is because nobody else has a problem with it.


  669. Indonesia affords an excellent lifestyle, and has no extradition treaty.

    Not all crimes are extraditeable. Usually the crime must have a mandatory sentence of a minimum of 1 year, usually more, and some countries list only specific crimes.

    Failure to pay child support therefore is not extraditable, even in European countries.


  670. contrarian

    You have only three arguments in your posts: game doesn’t work, female beauty is random, Islam is evil. The number people trying to argue with you is dropping fast, and now I predict that once you post some idiotic comment, only one answer will appear: Contrarian is stupid/freak/Angry-version-of-DA


  671. Gig – you mistakenly assume that contrarian is a person. Actually, he is not a human being. All people are not equal, and some are so unequal as to be sub-human.

    http://xsplat.wordpress.com/2007/06/30/how-human-are-we-on-blogs/


  672. xsplat

    a guy does a DNA test at home and discovers he was cuckolded. Do you think it is reasonable to imagine that he can create for himself your lifestyle in Indonesia in, say, 3 months?

    The fact that YOU have a high standard of living in Indonesia makes you think that it is easy, possible, and quick for ANYONE to do the same.

    and you failed to tell me how exactly will the guy get a fast track VISA. Also, I don’t believe that you can travel in the Anglosphere while owning child support in an anglo country. So your utopian view ignores this fact, that a cuckolded husband who flees America won’t be ever able to come home again. Since YOU can get a plane anytime and fly to any city in the US you want, you conveniently forget that fleeing America’s child support means abandoning America for life


  673. For once, I’m 100% in agreement with roissy.


  674. another one, xsplat

    I don’t know how it works in the US, but all passports I know have an expiring date. usually it is below 10 years. So unless you can get yourself a foreign passport in 10 years, you become an international pariah or returns to the US.

    Roissy and you are completely unrealistic about the reality facing a men fleeing child support in his native country, without a foreign passport


  675. Obsidian,

    I know..I get what the argument is in support of MPT and you’re entitled to that opinion. I still disagree with it and think it should be done at a personal level though. I will say though, that of everyone else, you are the best at logically arguing in favor of MPT, probably because every other word isn’t “feminist” “cunt” “slut” etc.


  676. Gig – you are correct that if a persons lifestyle is not transportable, then moving becomes very difficult.

    I won’t get into visas, but anyone who wants to be an expat can, with some research and effort. There are a lot of us.

    As for renewing a passport, I’m not sure about that. You might be right. But I’m not sure if you are – I would think that only high level crimes would preclude passport renewal, and I doubt child support is considered such a crime. I think it a civil offense, no? Not huge criminal offense?

    Agreed, becoming an expat is no simple matter. Yet many do so and thrive.


  677. on May 13, 2009 at 10:23 am Tupac Chopra

    cuntrarian:

    You will not find many people on this blog who values Western civilization.

    and then:

    Maybe you should pay more attention to this blog’s comments.

    Take your own advice, punk.


  678. but anyone who wants to be an expat can, with some research and effort. There are a lot of us.

    Becoming an expat woudl require a huge mental shift in an adult, but it can be done. It woudl have to require emancipating oneself from expecting to live a normal American life. Sometimes a traumatic-level disillusionment with our society can do this.

    And the payoffs can be huge: there is something to be said for Fred Reed’s living in a Mexican village. Like Gunslinger once brilliantly noted, “you wanna see what freedom looks like, visit a thrid world country.”

    The passport thing: if you go to the passpost web page, you’ll see their requirements with regards to child-support status.


  679. Tood: Let me show you some quotes of what I’ve already said already and you can check my own blog for some commentary I’ve had on the matter before I even approached this thread:

    Cuckoldry is its own crime, while sharing things with rape, it can be worse in some ways. It has aspects of violation, gross betrayal, humiliation, emotional damage and genetic threat to it. To think everything’s ok and then to discover how you were lied to and for so long and regarding the most important part of a long-term relationship by the one person you thought you could trust or even have power over…

    The main point is that YES, it should be taken SERIOUSLY for MEN like RAPE is taken SERIOUSLY for WOMEN.

    It is one of the worst betrayals by a human being. I can’t even imagine doing that to a man. Not only cheating on him, not only not lying to him, not only bearing another man’s child but making him become emotionally and in every other way invested into that child, for years and years. The multitude of wounds that sort of thing opens in a man’s soul, heart, mind and pride. It’s enough to shatter a human being’s whole identity and inspire the worst of misanthropy.

    I don’t understand the mentality that can say anything about this is not outright repulsive.

    Anyway, I’m sad to break this to you, Tood, but muslims and adherance to Islam is sadly very loose for some things or not strictly correct for some of the things you want from the religion e.g. there’s no justification I can directly find on honour killings. You’re looking for a more cultural rather than religious mentality, which can be — fair enough — provided by some of the muslims you’re thinking of.

    Do not underestimate a human’s capability of fusing Islam and SWPL together, even if it takes doublethink.

    “Kick a friendly dog enough”: That’s a strategy women can unconsciously use with their betas, in an effort to get the dominance out. People like to stretch their limits, test their boundaries and can be upset if there are none.

    You’d think it’d be easy with their beta sensitivity but it’s so hard to kick a puppy like DA and the response of anger or outlining the limits can be buried deep in favour of the response of sadness.

    NotReallyTokyo: I’m pretty sure the rape equals cuckoldry argument was on the presupposition that rape was wrong and the majority’s sentiments were geared in that direction; it’d be a pretty silly argument if it was on the presupposition that it was not. There’s too much misogyny to deal with here and not responding does not mean not having a problem with it.


  680. on May 13, 2009 at 10:32 am Tupac Chopra

    xsplat:

    I disagree with Whiskey that Alphas are low IQ thugs. I think todays Alphas include a variety of upper-echelon people, and that generally sociaties top dogs are mentally superior.

    This is true, but these men are a tiny tiny fraction of the types of men most women are cheating with.

    For the vast majority of affairs, the woman is moving laterally or even downwardly in the pursuit of higher testosterone, i.e., personal trainers, suave foreigners, pool-boys, F-300 driving contractors, etc.


  681. gig

    You have only three arguments in your posts: game doesn’t work, female beauty is random, Islam is evil. The number people trying to argue with you is dropping fast, and now I predict that once you post some idiotic comment, only one answer will appear: Contrarian is stupid/freak/Angry-version-of-DA

    1) I have not claimed that game does not work, I have claimed that it’s unnecessary. Which it is.
    2) Female beauty is subjective, that’s simply a fact. Not my fault that there are so many people claiming otherwise.
    3) I rarely if ever start Islam debates. Apparently I’m the only person here who is not allowed to discuss the subject.
    4) You are changing the subject and being blatantly evasive, as well as clearly making shit up by claiming that the aforementioned three subjects are the only ones I ever discuss.

    xsplat

    Gig – you mistakenly assume that contrarian is a person. Actually, he is not a human being. All people are not equal, and some are so unequal as to be sub-human.

    And why am I a sub-human? Because I am opposed to rape? Because I have morals? Because I am not seeking the destruction of Western civilization?

    Tupac Chopra

    Take your own advice, punk.

    I have clearly explained how the anti-feminism movement (which is strongly represented here) seeks to destroy Western civilization, rather than defend it.


  682. on May 13, 2009 at 10:37 am Tupac Chopra

    Bhetti:

    You’d think it’d be easy with their beta sensitivity but it’s so hard to kick a puppy like DA

    C’mon Bhetti, you can do it. I know you have it in you. I can feel….your anger.


  683. Re: revenge. I know you guys are keen on it but if I was the columnist, I might have written in the same way. Maybe for different reasons. People who commit certain crimes almost become objects to me: I consciously ignore emotional and mental involvement because they are nothing. Social justice, for the protection of society and other victims, is what I make it about. Punishment or not, it doesn’t matter, they don’t deserve the same emotions as a normal human being. Revenge’s a fun fantasy but they’re not worth one tiny bit of upset it might cause to people who actually care about you to take the dark path of pursuing revenge. You are the number one person to look after and they are now nothing. Yours and others interests should be your priority, not the insignificant psychological state of a person who barely counts as a human being.


  684. Betti, awash in lucidity

    Punishment or not, it doesn’t matter, they don’t deserve the same emotions as a normal human being. Revenge’s a fun fantasy but they’re not worth one tiny bit of upset it might cause to people who actually care about you to take the dark path of pursuing revenge. You are the number one person to look after and they are now nothing. Yours and others interests should be your priority, not the insignificant psychological state of a person who barely counts as a human being.

    Yup – some people truly are psycho. Revenge on a psycho is like revenge on a retarded child. What’s the point? Psychos are simply not human beings. They are not within the social norms, and so the socially-normative punitive process is pointless.


  685. In either case, the Betas are left out in the cold, unless they’re tapped to help pick up the pieces. That’s not the way the Betas would prefer it-thats the why the Women themselves would prefer it.

    The problem is that they’re not picking us because they find us attractive and arousing, but because we’re potentially good fathers with some income and possibly good credit. Once you realize that beta males are simply unattractive to women, you don’t want to bother women because it’s insulting to the beta male, especially once he realizes than an alpha male can extract far better sex from that woman than he can.

    It’s the virtual equivalent of give a beta male a 500 horsepower supercar, but telling him he’s limited to 35 mph and 100 hp when he drives it. Once he’s told that the alphas can drive it at full power, he’ll give up on the car.

    feminism is preventing us from creating a society in which sex differences are acknowledged

    The problem is that in our Anglo-American capitalist society, feminine traits aren’t useful in building income and wealth, and thus, some women felt marginalized, hence the emphasis on male traits in women.


  686. Jeez….you are totally right on this one Roissy, her advice should have been the q-tip swab…

    Doesn’t she know the adage,

    “Mommy’s baby. Daddy Maybe.”

    Right after my son’s birth my nurse said this sweet bit to my husband, who is very Mediterranian in appearance, as he questioned my son’s pale skin, light blue eyes, and obvious resemblance to me…

    I thought it was hilarious, and told him to figure it out with a smile. He’s a true Alpha and I love playing the game!!! Whats wrong with flirtation and jealousy? This guy needs a backbone, not advice on how to cut off his balls.


  687. Tupac: It’s pathetic. I’ve had absolute childish bitchfits about absolutely nothing with a beta and the very moment he got angry — the very moment — I’d stop and be sweet and apologise and be regretful. Yet, he still wouldn’t tell me to shut it when I’d come out with b/s as soon as I did it, but let me go on until I’d crossed so many lines. When just one hint of anger would’ve stopped me. I knew I was hurting him and I didn’t even know why I kept on, when it’s so out of character for other human interaction. I can recognise that, now, I think (maturing) and am learning to stop myself first. I’m trying to like myself, so I don’t want to keep doing the bitch routine.

    Leave playing martyr to the women, which is their natural fantasy (if we want to generalise).


  688. Kim,
    Thank you. I try hard to bring reason to this debate because the very nature of the topic is such that it can easily turn into a emotive tinderbox. I respect your feelings on the matter, but I think you would agree w/me that public policy should not be decided on the basis of visceral feelings but rather reasoned thought after impassioned debate.

    I also think you would agree that the state has a very strong role in the upholding of Women’s reproductive rights, yes? The state also supports the same Women in extracting child support payments and the like should the matter warrant it. Why then should the state refrain in the matter of MPT is still then not made clear to me per your protestations, and I still await an explanation from you on this point.

    Please clarify?

    O


  689. Bright people tend to do just fine with women.

    I used to hang around a lot of lawyers and my experience with the “elite” is this:

    1. About 10% were high-T guys who were able to use their lawyerly status to score lots of women and/or a relationship with a true hottie. Of course, most of them had some natural game and probably would have done well without being in law.

    2. About 45% were guys who managed to parley their lawyerly status into marrying women somewhat more good looking than they.

    3. About 45% ended up marrying smart women who were no more attractive than they. Smart passable looking to ugly nerds marrying smart passable looking to ugly nerds.

    A large subset of bright people just plain suck ass at attracting women. T. (Ricky Raw) has noted that it isn’t his big law/big finance friends that do well with women.


  690. You know, contrarian and kim offer excellent examples of internet trolls.

    contrarian is a classic troll. He invents straw men, pays little heed when his own illogic and failings are pointed out, and just basically thinks winning=posting last. His block quotes are hilarious: they completely ignore the logic of the arguments and repeat the same strawmen he always hugs in time of need.

    His straw men are classic, as is his irrational hatred of Islam. The latter used to piss me off, now is just funny, because all basic facts in history directly contradict his assertions about it. His response? “Well, history is biased.” And when I’ve asked him to present facts that would justify his radically unaccepted Islamic assertions, he claims the onus is on me and accepted history to somehow prove his crackpot theories wrong. lol.

    It’s laughable. It’s like when a Nazi argues the Holocaust never happened.

    cuntish “kim”:
    “I know..I get what the argument is in support of MPT and you’re entitled to that opinion. I still disagree with it and think it should be done at a personal level though. I will say though, that of everyone else, you are the best at logically arguing in favor of MPT, probably because every other word isn’t “feminist” “cunt” “slut” etc.”

    —a very good approximation fo a concern troll. She makes a ridiculous analogy or connection, then claims that she just wants to make sure this is not government involvement in ending child murder, er, abortion—knowing this is her best tactic, since no one here will accept her feminism, she tries to drive a wedge using abortion.

    Kim would probably have a good career at the FBI with her tactic. COINTERPLO, or something like that.

    Dumb feminist cunt.


  691. Pez (inspiring me to pull at the nape of her neck and see if a candy pops out of her throat)

    I thought it was hilarious, and told him to figure it out with a smile. He’s a true Alpha and I love playing the game!!!

    Ahh, you understand the games I play with my girls all day long. None of this pussyfooting about and walking on eggshells. Jealousy is just another tool for fun.


  692. Awesome article.

    You recognized the poor sap’s betaness by the second sentence? How did it take so long. Any man seeking advice from a woman on any issue involving relationships is beta compost, end of story.

    That was a point gleaned here. Someone pointed out how mothers, sisters, female friends are the ones advocating, “Be the nice guy.” Self-destructive advice. Do they want a trainwreck, or is it bad advice born of cluelessness. In the end, what’s the difference, the point is:

    Women advocate against the violent, forceful nature of the mating game. But the votes they cast with their pussies oppose this. Ultimately, they want their cake and to eat it too. And men, by accepting particular beta-roles and limits, allow this.


  693. Betti

    …Leave playing martyr to the women, which is their natural fantasy (if we want to generalise).

    Great post. I hear you that it’s tiring to be the bitch, you don’t know why its so hard to stop, and you’d feel better about yourself if you could.

    But what I read from this is that the percentage of men who could control your behaviour is very small. Such men are the social alphas. You are bitchy, because you crave a social alpha.

    An alpha would tease and mock you, ignore you, tell you to shut up, fuck you silent, or in extreme circumstances if you were out of your head raise a hand to you. Rarely does a man attain the experience to have these skills. Of course you’d want that. All women do.

    So your being a bitch and bitch testing is natures way of making you make men man up and making it easier to find out who truly makes you wet.


  694. xsplat: low IQ children bring the joy children do, which is just reminding you to enjoy the small things in life. They inspire care about them and they’re genuinely innocent for the most part. I think their nature actively pushes revenge out of an emotional heart. It’s a mistake for me to think they have nothing to contribute on at least the individual level or equate them to psychos.

    But we probably have different feelings about that.


  695. Thursday

    A large subset of bright people just plain suck ass at attracting women. T. (Ricky Raw) has noted that it isn’t his big law/big finance friends that do well with women.

    Right. And an even larger subset of not-so-bright people just plain suck ass at attracting women.

    Overall, the brighter people are who the debutantes aim for.


  696. Bhetti

    I’m pretty sure the rape equals cuckoldry argument was on the presupposition that rape was wrong and the majority’s sentiments were geared in that direction; it’d be a pretty silly argument if it was on the presupposition that it was not. There’s too much misogyny to deal with here and not responding does not mean not having a problem with it.

    Equating rape to something that is trivial by comparison is a way of trivializing rape. And then there are the “well what’s so terrible about rape anyway” comments.

    lurker

    You know, contrarian and kim offer excellent examples of internet trolls.

    Are you confusing me with you? You have trolled me countless of times, and every time I have demonstrated this to be the case you have not been able to argue otherwise.

    contrarian is a classic troll. He invents straw men, pays little heed when his own illogic and failings are pointed out, and just basically thinks winning=posting last. His block quotes are hilarious: they completely ignore the logic of the arguments and repeat the same strawmen he always hugs in time of need.

    What are these alleged straw men that you are referring to?

    His straw men are classic, as is his irrational hatred of Islam. The latter used to piss me off, now is just funny, because all basic facts in history directly contradict his assertions about it. His response? “Well, history is biased.” And when I’ve asked him to present facts that would justify his radically unaccepted Islamic assertions, he claims the onus is on me and accepted history to somehow prove his crackpot theories wrong. lol.

    See, now you’re trolling again. You’re attempting to derail the thread with an off-topic argument (that I won ages ago, which is undoubtedly the reason for your still ongoing meltdown). In fact, the whole strategy of responding with accusations of trolling is trolling itself.


  697. Betti

    low iq children…But we probably have different feelings about that.

    Damn straight we do. I’m not a nuturly mother type. I want my children to be a reflection of me, and to be the best and the brightest, to stand out and excell – to be natural born titans of whatever they choose.

    I am ruthless and cold about what children should be fostered. I don’t feel that children are gods little gifts. Not in the least.


  698. Yes Xsplat….

    Its too boring otherwise, safety and security create the foundation for true discontent in a mate. Keep them guessing, keep the game going, otherwise the search begins to start a new game…


  699. Tupac; Michael Harris; omw; Lurker

    Tupac: In a nutshell: when a man cheats, it’s usually just meaningless sex. He can still manage his family.
    When a woman cheats, it’s usually because she’s lost all respect for her husband and doesn’t respect him as a man. Women fall in “love” when they cheat. Much more disastrous for a family unit.

    Actually I think women’s cheating is often much worse than that. It tends to turn a vague yeaning and diffuse dissatisfaction into a sharp emotional break.

    What I think to the verge of being certain, is that women almost always backdate their loss of respect for their husband as a man to before their cheating, to excuse the cheating. This is done subconsciously. In fact this usually happens AFTER she does, not before. Particularly this is the case when her husband is in fact a good and admirable man. In our current culture and environment, many women cheat on these types of men too. Even on alphas. Yes.

    As well it’s not necessarily true that women lose all respect for their husbands when they cheat or certainly that they have before they start. Instead what does tend to happen is they lose all sexual desire for him after the fall in lust with a lover. I’ve found that cheating wife blogs are highly illuminating.

    Of course if a woman HAS lost all respect for her husband, then she is highly likely to cheat outside of some religious circles in our society.
    The progression for women is that (in relationships that are quite good to begin with)

    1) She falls in love. (At least to a considerable extent. If she’s been strongly in love before, the more times the less good, not as deeply. That’s worse. A lot worse. And today typical.) During this period she doesn’t even notice other men. The idea of cheating seems absurd to her, or revolting. This might last six months or as long as two years.

    2) She remains in love but her feelings a calmer, and weaker. She’s less passionate but tranquilly and happily lovers her husband. She notices other men but she feels no particular impetus to act. Another 2 or maybe 4 years, depending on what else is going on. She’s got an infant in most cases that occupies lots of her time and energy. Might impact her sex life negatively. That is highly variable to the woman. The amount of help the husband gives at home is almost entirely (entirely) a feminist red herring.

    3) She’s no long chemically bound to her husband. However they have built a life together. He may be her best friend. She may admire him greatly, or resent him and have started looking down on him. In any event she’s more than capable of seeing him critically. No one knows more dirt about him than she does. NOW, if she’s in a society in which women’s infidelity in all social classes is a huge and often media excused or celebrated activity, and women make out with huge divorce theft when they cheat on professional earning men, then she’s going to be strongly tempted, especially if she has a high sex drive and has kept her looks up mostly for reasons of general social status.

    4) If shes cheat her female nature will strongly impel her to fall in love. Ironically this is less true of sluts, who though they will probably have cheated sooner, are less likely to super bond with their lovers. If she falls in love and she’s a one man kind of relative good girl woman, her female nature will wish to make her lover exclusive. Her desire to preserve her family may impel her to keep sex going with her husband, if he’s a good father and provider etc., but it will tend to become more of a duty, almost like a prostitute. This will not necessarily be odious to her. That’s highly dependent upon her beliefs. It will however stop being anything she wants to get strongly into.

    That’s how it often goes. Myself, I don’t know how you keep a relationship passionate for longer than about 4 years, or 6 at the outside. I mayself have never experienced it / done it.

    Dave in Hawaii’s newly found, mid marriage, alpha game may be a successful example. It’s almost as if he became a different man for his wife though.


  700. Bhetti

    It is one of the worst betrayals by a human being. I can’t even imagine doing that to a man. Not only cheating on him, not only not lying to him, not only bearing another man’s child but making him become emotionally and in every other way invested into that child, for years and years. The multitude of wounds that sort of thing opens in a man’s soul, heart, mind and pride. It’s enough to shatter a human being’s whole identity and inspire the worst of misanthropy.

    I don’t understand the mentality that can say anything about this is not outright repulsive.

    Ah Bhetti.

    My Bhetti.

    Sweet.


  701. Tupac, pulling out some nuggets of wisdom with a speculum

    This is true, but these men are a tiny tiny fraction of the types of men most women are cheating with.

    For the vast majority of affairs, the woman is moving laterally or even downwardly in the pursuit of higher testosterone, i.e., personal trainers, suave foreigners, pool-boys, F-300 driving contractors, etc.

    I made my comment already. Seems to me I know where you get your ideas from – inform me otherwise.


  702. Bhetti

    It’s pathetic. I’ve had absolute childish bitchfits about absolutely nothing with a beta and the very moment he got angry — the very moment — I’d stop and be sweet and apologise and be regretful. Yet, he still wouldn’t tell me to shut it when I’d come out with b/s as soon as I did it, but let me go on until I’d crossed so many lines.

    Silly weak little boy.

    I knew I was hurting him and I didn’t even know why I kept on, when it’s so out of character for other human interaction. I can recognise that, now, I think (maturing) and am learning to stop myself first. I’m trying to like myself, so I don’t want to keep doing the bitch routine.

    Leave playing martyr to the women, which is their natural fantasy (if we want to generalise).

    You have been maturing very noticeably these last several months before my very eyes baby. Really and truly.

    Recall my saying to you last night on this blog: “I love the woman you’re becoming.”

    (Feeling sunny.)


  703. Yet, he still wouldn’t tell me to shut it when I’d come out with b/s as soon as I did it, but let me go on until I’d crossed so many lines.

    Quick Reply: That’s because whenever we tell you to shut up, you either become angrier or sad which induces the guilt complex within men like myself. It’s much easier to put up with your shit than to actually say shut up.


  704. pez

    Yes Xsplat….

    Its too boring otherwise, safety and security create the foundation for true discontent in a mate. Keep them guessing, keep the game going, otherwise the search begins to start a new game…

    I think family oriented men tend to not be able to fit this fact into their worldview. Some on this blog would prefer to re-social-engineer society, such that women are shamed into being what we want of them. Rather than to admit the simple fact that security kills passion.

    Family men want and need security. And yet security kills passion, and without passion there is a likelyhood of straying, which usually means no security. It’s a paradox many men can’t piece together into a seamless whole.

    Security requires huge, massive risk taking, and many, many losses. The only security in the end is to not require it in a specific shape.


  705. David Alexander–

    That’s because whenever we tell you to shut up, you either become angrier or sad

    Nope.

    What she becomes is calmer.

    When I tell her to shut up, probably phrased as “oh shut up, will you” — she stops. Looks at me a little startled. Is quiet for a moment.

    Then she says “sorry”. Followed sometimes by “you’re right”. or “thanks for letting me vent”.

    Then she comes for a hug. Which she knows she can count on.


  706. Doug, Dave Alex,
    Indeed. I tell Women to “hush” early and often. Works like a champ.

    Example:

    Woman goes on and on and on…

    Obsidian: Oh Woman, hush.

    Woman: *silence*

    See how easy that is?

    O


  707. Doug

    When I tell her to shut up, probably phrased as “oh shut up, will you” — she stops. Looks at me a little startled. Is quiet for a moment.

    I’m very fond of “shut the fuck up, woman!” And, “make me a tea, woman!”. Said with humor and joy, several times a day. There would be no need for a make up hug if I tell my girl to shut up – she’d simply shut up, and that’s that.

    I mean, it’s not like every little emotional movement in a womans head require some sort of mental antitote, that only I can provide. What am I, a babysitter of a woman’s emotional balance?

    I think not.


  708. Obsidian: Oh Woman, hush.

    Ya. I hold my finger to my lips, and sound “ssshhhhhhhhhhhh”.

    Twice or three times, if needed.

    Shames them silent.


  709. Shut up? Hush up?

    How about “Enough already!”

    If you are dating women who can’t offer stimulating dialogue or debate…then it will never last past the initial get to know your body phase…

    If thats all you want then fine, but I find that superficial at best. better yet try…http://www.realdoll.com/

    an old friend of mine started the company.


  710. My Body, My Fraud!

    The rigths of the cuckold beta-male be damned.
    Such citizens don’t have any rights.
    They just have obligations.

    Here is a beta who *almost* broke from his chains:

    http://www.news4jax.com/news/19410437/detail.html#-

    But then he had to attend some stupid wedding, and got caught by his slavemasters.


  711. Phrases, gestures….

    It’s all in the tone, the assurance, the strength and the attitude.

    You’re the rock of Gibraltar. She’s the silly waves breaking on your rock face.

    Silly but delightful. (As long as you keep her that way.)


  712. Xsplat

    security is a fine line indeed…if you follow the 1950′s ideal TV version you’re screwed.


  713. If you are dating women who can’t offer stimulating dialogue or debate…then it will never last past the initial get to know your body phase…</blockquote.

    Interesting theory, but there are whole cultures that show otherwise.

    Some couples have nothing to talk about, but give and take other things they can only get from each other. Conversation needs can be met outside the relationship.

    My fundamentals are 1) sex 2) pleasant companionship, including joking about, or just hanging out quietly 3)taking care of my food needs 4) keeping house 5) not being a thorn in my side for just being who I am 6) conversation.


  714. notreallytokyo: Cuckoldry is clearly not trivial. But we will end this here, some people have tried to trivialise rape.

    xsplat: I’m not complaining about the bitchiness. There’s no excuse for pointless bitchery and I’ve got the responsibility to control it. It’s just amazing how easy it is to stop me externally — they really don’t have to go that far — as opposed to internally, and how a man does not quickly learn to take advantage of that.

    I’ve been spoiled in my expectations by my brother, I think, who’s both a complete ass and a sweetheart. I love him the most out of anyone. I’m used to having to deal with him, which I guess resulted in overspill into uncensored bitchiness for the unsuspecting beta. And what’s messed up is that my brother’s gay, so no woman’s going to benefit from that fun from him. It’s strange, actually, how he never bought into the woman as a fragile, precious thing to protect (actually, probably not that strange due to our mother’s nature: not ‘fragile’). His nickname for mother and I these days when even vaguely displeased with the cooking or something is ‘prostitutes’ knowing exactly relatively how unadventerous we are, saying this even as he’s encouraging us to go have fun.

    doug: Yeah, I have noticed a change and am happier for it. Still, I don’t want to say this but you really need to stop that. Even though it makes me happy, I’m much too pleased and it matters a little too much. It doesn’t even give you a beta vibe because I know how easily you fall in love with women.

    Criticise, damn it!

    You’ll get bored eventually, Mr. I will love you 4-ever (that means for four years, dear).

    DA: You do realise the ‘easier’ part is what hurts the most about you and why I project previous pain on you. How many women have you enabled to be bitches for the sake of being the right one, the good one, the moral one, the victim who needs a hug, the one who won’t deal with it, to indulge your need for someone to point out inferiority you want to believe in? Unless they were completely lost to bitchiness, I bet you enjoyed the results of the subsequent guilt-trip on their side.

    Seriously, get out of the mentality that you somehow deserve it and that being angry at a woman will somehow break her mind/feelings. Women can handle emotions because they’re demonstrative with them. I cry myself to sleep and it’s over. Done. Move on.


  715. Actually I think women’s cheating is often much worse than that. It tends to turn a vague yeaning and diffuse dissatisfaction into a sharp emotional break.

    Indeed. As has been said, when men cheat they generally look at it as supplemental to the wife, not replacement for her. When women cheat it’s the opposite — the lover becomes the replacement for the husband, and the husband becomes a roommate at best (sometimes with sex thrown in to keep the marriage together but not because she likes it) or despised at worst. But the lover is now her “relationship partner”.

    One of the many reasons why there has been, and always will be, a sexual double standard.


  716. doug: My silly waves will gradually erode you. You watch. ;)


  717. okay…your right about the tone, etc….but that game goes both ways….


  718. I read this somewhere in some science magazine.

    Blue eyed men have a genetic (subconscious) preference / attraction for blue eyed women.
    Blue eyed women have NO preference in their mate’s eye color.

    If both the mother and the father have blue eyes- so will the child- thus if the mother cheated, and the child had dark eyes- the father would know.
    I guess this was an ancient male paternity test of sorts.


  719. pez

    Xsplat

    security is a fine line indeed…if you follow the 1950’s ideal TV version you’re screwed.

    I’m lucky in that I don’t have an internal desire at odds with what I can expect out of life. I like it that lovers come and they go. The river will roll, roll roll.


  720. Bhetti–

    It doesn’t even give you a beta vibe because I know how easily you fall in love with women.

    Naaah. I like and can even feel affection for lots of different girls and like to find the fun in them. That’s not the same as falling in love girlfriend.

    The reality babe is that you’re an incredibly jealous little minx that’s protecting herself from hurt. Even though we’re an ocean apart in space, a religion apart in culture, and a a lot apart in years (seeing how you’re just barely no longer a teen), you STILL get jealous of ANY little flirting I do on here with anyone else. Just an amazingly green eyed girl you are.

    There you go. And true to boot.


  721. There are also cultures that arrange marriages, that manage to be successful as well, but that doesnt mean having nothing in common but heat…

    Xsplat your list was; 1) sex 2) pleasant companionship, including joking about, or just hanging out quietly 3)taking care of my food needs 4) keeping house 5) not being a thorn in my side for just being who I am 6) conversation.

    My top 6 are 1. hot sex 2. humour 3. confidence 4. intelligence 5.appearance 6. adoring me….

    conversation should just happen with all that…”joking about” means your conversing, so does hanging out quietly if its comfortable.


  722. Reality sucks. And it’s utterly hypocritical jealousy to re-boot. Emotions: messed up.


  723. For now, but aren’t you worried that at some point that rolling river won’t be enough? it never gets old for you?


  724. nilk

    A woman who conceives a child outside the marriage is perpetrating a massive fraud that damages all parties when it is uncovered.

    But, since his wife is flawed, that’s okay.

    No, not really. It’s just the truth that they are both flawed. My worldview may be harsh, but I don’t promote victimhood in general. Those who play victim repeat the same mistake over and over and over….. Been there.


  725. Obsidian,

    I feel like the government is involved in too much already. Like I said somewhere above…it would be great if the government didn’t have to get involved in things like child support, etc. but because people are too stupid to handle things responsibly…they get involved. I guess it’s a political view that I usually will apply to most situations. I just believe in less government, not in a Republican way, but more in Libertarian way.

    Lurker,

    Settle down. First, why is my name in quotes like it may or may not be my real name? Second, I have no idea what an internet troll is. Third, I really like how you quoted the part where I commended Obsidian for being one of the better debaters here because of his absence of words like “cunt” and then continue to throw a few “cunt”s in there anyways. Bravo, you are truly an idiot.


  726. Kim,
    Let me ask you this, please: do you support Roe v Wade? Or the recent rulings regarding Plan B birth control? If your answer to either is “yes” then you do indeed support state intervention in the upholding of Women’s reproductive rights. Why then this cannot be extended to Men in this instance is something you have not made clear to me or dare I say, to this venue.

    Please clarify?

    Thanks.

    O


  727. kim: Less government = vigilante misognyist males in this thread given free reign. Fun. They shouldn’t interfere between a man and his wife.


  728. pez

    For now, but aren’t you worried that at some point that rolling river won’t be enough? it never gets old for you?

    How can fresh experiences get old? It’s the old experiences that get stale.

    I’m not the least bit worried about of living a rancid, stale, tepid and tamed life. I leave that to the monogamous family men worker drones.


  729. Bhetti

    What do you think of my four stage progression and rough timing of most women’s love and sexual feeling for a husband she did fall in love / lust with initially? For ease, HERE.

    Leave out the cheating in stage 4. Then what, six years into a marriage with an alpha? Say a lesser alpha, who’s strongly loyal.

    Maybe you’re just to young to set to this question. If so you’ll give platitudes or say you don’t know.

    Or you could surprise me.


  730. kim: just to let you know, I really don’t want that to happen. There’s a compromise between non-governmentally restrained misogyny AND misandry, and that’s governmental MPT. It in itself will help the women who otherwise will be tempted to keep their legs shut.

    doug: I realise you’re drawing me into your version of reality and don’t know (or want to know?) how to do a thing about it, trouble.


  731. Obsidian,

    I do, but the way I see it, abortion should have never been made illegal or legal. People should be able to get abortions if they want to. And if they’re against abortion…then don’t get one. People should be able to get paternity tests if they want to. I know that by saying this I’m opening the door for “well does that mean their shouldn’t be laws against murder?!” etc questions. Hopefully it won’t reach that trivial level though.


  732. Pez, you know what I really don’t get? It’s when people can’t understand how life can have any real and lasting meaning, unless you have kids. It’s when people assume that kids are a retirement package that will keep you from being lonely in your age.

    I don’t get it. Seems so silly and strange to me. I live for life. I like life. I’m glad and happy to be alive. I want more of that. I don’t need any kids. I don’t even want any kids. Maybe I’ll have some (new ones), but they won’t be the purpose or meaning of my life.

    Finding purpose and meaning through kids is like enjoying Christmas because that’s when Santa Claus arrives. The kids are tangential to purpose and meaning – they don’t cause it.

    Mama, mama many worlds I’ve known since I first, left home.


  733. kim–

    It’s perfectly apparent to me that you’re fundamentally and deeply lying to Obsidian, and others on this board.

    What you really want is to let women married to weaker betas who are decent providers, slip through with an alpha’s love child undetected. That’s if those betas can’t pass your test of having the stones to request / demand a paternity test without state automatic requirements of all men.

    In other words you’re really taking a sort of middle stance. You support any man with any balls in his wanting a paternity test. You oppose shrill feminists who e.g. want to make all such tests if requested /demanded by HUSBANDS (but not wives) illegal. (Incredibly enough women’s groups have pressed for that in the UK and I believe Australia.) You’re in Oz, right?

    If you would admit that, I’d have renewed or reborn respect for you. As it is at the moment, not so much.


  734. doug: It’s very difficult to be objective about anything you say for me now. I’m just agreeing in theory. I haven’t observed enough women who have fallen in love or women who cheated or known them well and long enough to say.


  735. Actually Kim,
    Abortions were legal in roughly half of the states in the union, including New York prior to Roe v Wade in 1973. The case was more a cause celebre than a cause for real concern because just about any Woman who could put together the money to make the trip to an Abortion State could get one. Roe herself could have easily hopped a plane flight from her native TX, went to NY and had the procedure done.

    So, again, while you may not theoretically see the need for the state to be involved, what is clear is that you both support RVW and by extension, at the very least recognize the need for the state to safegaurd it. Again, it is not clear why you cannot extend this same protections to Men who have real concerns about the paternity of kids assigned to them.

    Please explain?

    Thanks.

    O


  736. on May 13, 2009 at 1:27 pm Comment_Gig

    Gig said:

    as Tupac Chopra said, men’s infidelity doesn’t diminish his hability to be a husband or father, unless he fathers a son outside marriage, which I believe should be harshly punished and those sons highly stygmatyzed, together with their moms

    Gig, unlike Spanish and Portuguese, where the h is always silent except in special cases, in English, the h is almost always spoken. Especially starting a word.

    IE:
    hability is actually ability

    Still, your impressively good at English.

    I also believe that the posting of another thread so soon has cut short the manically expanding life of this poor thread. Roissy, how could you kill such a active, lively thing? Killed in the bloom of youth, gaining 50+ comments an hour?

    *Doing my part to help thread-count reach 900.


  737. kim: it wouldn’t be cost-efficient to test everyone. Only those dads (and maybe some odd females) who want it, and she really has no right to say no except for her own DNA being swabbed. There may be the rare ‘hospital swap’ scenario tragedy, which wouldn’t be found out unless she accepted for her DNA sample to be taken but there you go.


  738. Bhetti

    doug: I realise you’re drawing me into your version of reality and don’t know (or want to know?) how to do a thing about it, trouble.

    No Bhetti. I’m not being Machiavellian. I’m looking for truth. You bring your own partially culture bridging, interesting perspective.

    So draw me into YOUR version of reality instead.

    So far you’ve chosen the “I don’t know” little kid option.

    Do better. Shine some light. You can’t tell me you don’t think and read about these kinds of things a lot.

    I just wrote out a scenario that might keep passion strong for more than six years or so but I’m withholding it (cutting and pasting it elsewhere) for now to avoid polluting your mind or giving you a pre fab answer.


  739. “there are lots of us”

    I agree that if you visit a country, like it, and have YEARS to plan, it is quite easy to become an expat, anywhere.

    It should be pretty obvious to all that doing the same thing in a few months is unrealistic.


  740. comment_gig

    I’d better make a mistake in one letter than write 300 of them without saying anything


  741. Doug,

    I don’t know how I’m lying. I don’t approve of cheating, and I don’t know where I said that. I think that men should be able to ask for a paternity test if they feel it is necessary. If the woman says no, then by all means take the action to do it w/o the woman knowing. Or, if a man doesn’t want to ask, then they can just do it themselves anyways. I don’t know if what I’m asking for is necessarily Oz. It’s somewhat idealistic apparently, even though I didn’t think it was originally.

    Obsidian,

    If their concerns are real, then they can ask for it. Or do it themselves.


  742. Bhetti

    doug: It’s very difficult to be objective about anything you say for me now. I’m just agreeing in theory.

    You are such a girl!


  743. Incredibly enough women’s groups have pressed for that in the UK and I believe Australia.

    Actually, Doug, I don’t think it’s incredible that women’s groups want to ban the tests. It’s logical. These tests represent the biggest threat to a part of women’s wired sexual strategy since the imposition of hard, enforced monogamy long ago. Women are fresh on the heels of their victory in overthrowing enforced monogamy a few decades ago, and so it’s no surprise at all that women’s groups would come out against this new threat.


  744. Hey Xsplat,

    I don’t feel that purpose of meaning of life comes for kids either, though certainly at moments they bring laughter, tears, and love…but I’m digressing.

    I only speak of my wisdom from my own father. He was a true Alpha player briefly smitten by my mother. He was quite good at the game and was getting many women while still in his 60′s at least half his age, but once an illness took hold of him and captured him for the last ten years, it was his kids that brought him most of his happiness, there are many lonely moments in illlness…. though at his wake I did meet 2 of his more recent paramours, I smile at thinking he still had it going on.


  745. The long-term Arab married women I know don’t seem to have lost those stage 1/2 feelings exactly, because they’re the ones who want more attention, more love, more sex from him. There was one little family who have been a couple for over a decade in which I’d come across a certain blue pill upon helping them clean. I don’t know if it’s affection, social/financial restriction or loyalty to their family that keeps them at home but certainly it’s not noticing other men that’s the thing that makes them go to botox extents and so on to stay looking lovely.

    The males — on the other hand — seem to have fallen out of love with them ages ago. I wonder if that plays a part in all of their behaviour. My mother won’t stop sadly/angrily recalling where it all went wrong with my dad in between bouts of saying how much she respects him. She won’t say yes to any sort of interest from men, even though she very occasionally acknowledges one as being attractive and she’s pretty much divorced.


  746. kim–

    I don’t know if what I’m asking for is necessarily Oz.

    I was asking if you live in Australia = Oz. Guess not. (It was a little side question, irrelevant to my main point.)

    What I was saying kim is that the reason you give for you opposition to legally mandatory and routine paternity testing at birth is bogus.

    It’s not really concern about yet more state invasion of our lives. I do believe you care about such things; it’s just that since the state already tests for e.g. syphilis and other things, it’s hardly any more or a privacy invasion.

    Instead you deeply emotionally don’t want to help out betas who don’t have the stones to get the test done themselves, either by getting their wives to agree, or by doing it surreptitiously. You don’t want the wives of betas without those stones to be precluded from having a love child with a stronger male. I understand that. That other male could be me.

    You’ve actually more or less converted me to your position. I’m adamantly opposed to making paternity testing initiated by men illegal or difficult. But maybe I’m willing to back off making it automatically required.

    The attitude of all men with any balls at all should be that of course any woman that presents him with a child is going to be subject to paternity testing. Count on it baby. Trust but verify. As a matter of course for you personally, as a man.


  747. The problem with the “if they want it they can ask for it or do it themselves” is that having to ask for it already places a substantial burden on the man in question. He has to weigh the emotional cost to the relationship of even suggesting he has doubts about paternity, on the one hand, against the potential benefit of avoiding a false paternity. That’s an undue burden, and places men in a very difficult situation. Having the tests happen as a matter of course just makes it a routine thing — no emotion-laden conversations, no intimations of suspected infidelities and the like — just a routine test and the chips fall where they may.

    As for doing it themselves, that is fine, as long as the tests are usable in court. A trend we have seen in a few countries, however, is that the do-it-yourself tests are being hemmed in and banned. Germany for example now requires the mother’s consent before any DNA test can be binding before a family court. That consent can be overridden by the man applying the family court, but the family court can still refuse to mandate the test if it determines that a negative outcome would be harmful for the child. That kind of legislation is going to spread to other countries, I am guessing.


  748. kim

    But I continue to not like you’re lying about it. Which you continue to do.


  749. Gig

    It should be pretty obvious to all that doing the same thing in a few months is unrealistic.

    As I said, it depends on the portability of your income stream and savings. Many people earn their keep via the internet. In that case its of no importance where you live. Others have skills that are in demand anywhere. Still others are flexible and inventive. Seems none of those describe you, so you might require years.


  750. Thinking of one (non-Arab) happy couple I saw, who seemed to still have gooey feelings, they just seemed to get the dynamic right with relentless playfulness between them, as well as him casting himself in a rather masculine, ‘quiet now woman’ role. I don’t know why they weren’t bored of each other.


  751. Nova

    The problem with the “if they want it they can ask for it or do it themselves” is that having to ask for it already places a substantial burden on the man in question. He has to weigh the emotional cost to the relationship of even suggesting he has doubts about paternity

    I couldn’t get past this part of your post, the notion was so emotionally revolting to me.

    I guess it’s true. Betas are deeply despised.

    Any man who feels it a burden and emotional cost to the relationship to bring up doubts is not worth protecting. I don’t buy it that it’s for the betterment of society, as betas are the backbone of all that is worthwhile – the steady worker bees and engineers. Bullshit. I call shenanigans.

    A man with no stones is not a man I protect.


  752. lurker

    Roissy, mandatory testing would be ideal, and should be required. I fear it won’t come about because of lying bitches like Hax and Sara I and anony.

    Bitch, yes. Lying bitch, no. Get your facts straight honey. Mandatory testing of any kind is a sticky wicket.


  753. “Mandatory testing of any kind is a sticky wicket.”
    —spoken like a true lying bitch terrified of losing her cuckolding abilities.


  754. I guess it’s true. Betas are deeply despised.

    Any man who feels it a burden and emotional cost to the relationship to bring up doubts is not worth protecting. I don’t buy it that it’s for the betterment of society, as betas are the backbone of all that is worthwhile – the steady worker bees and engineers. Bullshit. I call shenanigans.

    A man with no stones is not a man I protect.

    And you’ve just revealed why men will always hate each other.


  755. it was his kids that brought him most of his happiness, there are many lonely moments in illlness…. though at his wake I did meet 2 of his more recent paramours, I smile at thinking he still had it going on

    That’s sweet. In my own way I too am a family man. I avoid prostitutes and disco chicks, as I crave bonding. I create families, let them go when the bonds break, and create new ones.

    I don’t see my elderly years as empty, unless I have kids. I also don’t see kids as any guarantee of companionship in old age. I wonder what percentage of time it works out that children hang out with their elderly parents. Any guesses? Twenty five percent? Sixty?

    My Dad has a very rich and full life, indipendent of his children. He may never see any of us again, before he offs it. I don’t think he’ll need us, in that moment. I think he’ll be hugely satisfied and as ready as the richness of a soul can make a man be.

    My life is nearly always full and rich. And I’m short and balding and ugly. What’s age going to change?


  756. Nova brings up a powerful point w/the “undue burden” argument, and note the clear parallel to the Roe v Wade/Casey v Planned Parenthood cases, where a big part of the rulings rested on the “undue burden” piece. This is more than a personal matter, but one that has grave economic and social implications; even if 4% of the US population is effected, that means potentially *millions* of people at risk. Therefore, the state has a compelling interest to sort this all out and nip it in the bud before things get messier than they already are.

    That Kim cannot offer a cogent, compelling case as to why the very same state that safeguards Women’s reproductive rights can’t or shouldn’t, be extended to Men (please note similar arguments made against Matt Dubay’s case) is extremely telling both in its blatant hypocrisy and lack of intellectual rigor, to say nothing of a show of rank dishonesty, w/all due respect. I have asked Kim numerous times to please explain her position, and she either can’t or won’t, all the while citing grevious harms that will come to abortion as a result of the passage of MPT-yet, as I’ve demonstrated here, a very strong case can be made for MPT, on the very same basis that brought RVW into existence.

    This is a very simple case, people. One that begs for logical consistency-either Men have, in legal terms, the same rights to Reproductive Freedom as Women, or they don’t.

    Which is it?

    O


  757. Kim, bieng the feminazi she is:

    “Settle down.”
    –said the woman making hysterical comparisons between killing her child *in the womb* and her child having a blood test * shortly after birth.*

    “First, why is my name in quotes like it may or may not be my real name?”
    —Your real name is probably leslie. And you drive a harley.

    “Second, I have no idea what an internet troll is.”
    —-google it.

    “Third, I really like how you quoted the part where I commended Obsidian for being one of the better debaters here because of his absence of words like “cunt” and then continue to throw a few “cunt”s in there anyways.”
    —-cunty cunt cunt skank whore slut.

    Now please, go try to get the state to intervene to force child support payments and give a woman half a man’s hard earned estate because of a marriage contract and then whine about MPT being the state intervening in a person’s life. Just let the cuckolds be fooled and pay me, damnit!

    Don’t forget to spread your legs for the cable guy, whore.


  758. O, demanding logical consistency from a woman is like demanding a dog speak English. they are incapable, too stupid, and too wholly enjoy their ignorance to try.


  759. Nova

    A man with no stones is not a man I protect.

    And you’ve just revealed why men will always hate each other.

    No, you missed the meta narrative. No general admits into his army weaklings. Hazing is the ritual used in bootcamp.

    Man up, or piss off.


  760. PA

    Why do so many men walk on eggshells with their women? Where’s the damn fear coming from?

    The fear is very real. Here’s one take on the subject. Guess who?

    There are biological reasons for the fear. Women are capable of multiple orgasms, man is not. No man is capable of satisfying any woman. If the woman is allowed freedom she will make anybody afraid, because she will make you feel inferior. She is capable of multiple orgasms–within seconds she can have many orgasms–and you can have only one orgasm. And with one orgasm you are finished! She has not even started and you are finished–this is very embarrassing. Because of this fear man has repressed women all over the world.

    It is not that man is stronger and that’s why he has repressed women, no. It is out of fear.

    …..if she becomes an active partner she will reduce the man to almost nothingness. If she becomes active, man is very much afraid–how is he going to satisfy her? All his manhood will be at stake. He will no longer be capable of bragging that he is a man, something higher, superior. Sexually he is not; sexually he is inferior.

    There are even countries in Africa, where operations were done on small girls: their clitorises were cut when they were very small–a very painful operation–just to make sure they don’t have any idea of orgasm.

    This quote is a bit dated, but evolution is slow.


  761. lurker

    Don’t forget to spread your legs for the cable guy, whore.

    Tell me, dear lurker. How’s your mother these days? *wink*


  762. No, you missed the meta narrative. No general admits into his army weaklings. Hazing is the ritual used in bootcamp.

    Man up, or piss off.

    It’s “men” like you that have caused the current situation to come into being. You despise other men. A sorry excuse for a member of our sex, and emblematic of exactly how we got to the current situation.


  763. lurker

    O, demanding logical consistency from a woman is like demanding a dog speak English. they are incapable, too stupid, and too wholly enjoy their ignorance to try.

    There you go again, using male standards and thought patterns to describe women. You are not even trying to grok them.

    Women are not stupid. They are just not logical. They are clever at being women. Women need to be inconsistent and illogical and have no ability for introspection, in order to be clever at being women. A women’s job demands those attributes.

    You have no clue even what a women’s job is. You think it has something to do with your agenda. It does, only in as much as the separate agendas intersect. Which is, not much.


  764. lurker

    “Mandatory testing of any kind is a sticky wicket.”
    —spoken like a true lying bitch terrified of losing her cuckolding abilities.

    Settle down, sweet lurker. I had a hysterectomy. The world is now a safer place.


  765. Doug,

    I thought you meant Oz…like wizard of Oz. How embarrassing.. oops :-/ I’m living in London right now but I’m from Chicago. And I still don’t see how I’m lying!


  766. Nova – how do you imagine I spent my youth? Do you think in high school I was a jock?

    No – I was a geek, and spent plenty years as a pro-feminist nice guy.

    Wonderfully nice. You can polarize me into some hard ass enemy, if that suits your ideological needs.

    I’ll make this simple. Boys who refuse to become men deserve to be treated as boys. Do you agree? Let’s not quibble about what is the definition of boy. You keep your own – whatever that means to you.

    I don’t respect men who choose to not be brave. I have no use within my circle of men who can’t stand up for themself. If I were to arrange a troup of like minded compatriots, it would not include men too weak minded and feeble hearted to speak their minds. To a mere woman.


  767. novaseeker–

    The problem with the “if they want it they can ask for it or do it themselves” is that having to ask for it already places a substantial burden on the man in question. He has to weigh the emotional cost to the relationship of even suggesting he has doubts about paternity, on the one hand, against the potential benefit of avoiding a false paternity.

    The time to require paternity testing is when she has first fallen in love with you. I’m entirely serious.

    See THIS that I wrote up thread.

    Don’t fall into the trap of being considered anxious that she’ll cheat on your. Rather have the view that we live in a rampantly and growing female cheating culture, that’s what feminists and to a large extent the media push, and that you as a man aren’t having it and will be all Nazi about it. Deal.


  768. Sara,
    That quote-am I correct that it’s from Osho?-only applies to Man who are ignorant, selfish and/or inexperienced. A well trained Man in the Ways of Women will be able to satisfy her in ways that *she* will be fearful to leave him. Afterall, Women know, that a good Woodsmen is hard to find.

    O


  769. on May 13, 2009 at 2:31 pm Comment_Gig2

    Gig, I wasn’t trying to put you down. I don’t do passive-aggressive.

    Many people here can only speak one language, and I’m much worse at my second language than you are at yours. So if I think your stupid, then I most be really stupid. Okay?

    I can see that I’ve been failing to respond to comments you have been making throughout the thread.

    This wasn’t intentional. I simply didn’t read them. The thread is HUGE.

    gig wrote:

    once you own child support payments in America, unless you hold a FOREIGN passport, you will be deported. You can think that it is possible to disappear in the Third World, but once you use a credit card, it is as easy to find you as if you were in california

    This is about as useful, or less so, than my comments. My comment about leaving the country was overly optimistic. It was a butterfly and rainbows comment, ignoring all the problems. However, your comment is an equally useless, extremely negative statement. You are basically saying, ‘YOU CAN’T ESCAPE, KNEEL BEFORE YOUR GOD!’.

    People disappear in America, which believes in constant surveillance of it’s ‘citizens’. You can see it in the ‘Missing Children’ posters where the child went ‘missing’ with their father/mother/grandmother. I can only imagine how bad it must have been for the child for a 70 year old grandmother to go on the run to protect her grandchild.

    Anyway, I’m quite sure things are less tracked in third-world countries, so it is easier.

    Sure, maybe some people will have to outright BUY citizenship. But we are talking about 100,000 dollars or more in child-support expenses in many cases and half your assets as the other ‘alternative’.

    Really, be specific. What would be the specific problems with moving to Brazil?


  770. alice-in-the-wonderland-in-indonesia

    I won’t brag about myself on the internet. I leave that line of argument for you.

    Do you realize that a judge in the US can freeze your assets in ANY bank operating in the US, don’t you? if you transfer your savings from Citigroup to the Bank of Indonesia, which almost certainly operates in New York, they will be under American jurisdiction.

    you must have an account in a local bank, or a fiscal heaven. Or have an account under someone else’s name. or convert your saving in real estate in other country. How does the cheated husband justifies a trip to Indonesia, alone?

    look, alice-in-indonesia, a guy with the vision and balls to plan and do this all in 3 months WOULDN’T BE cheated in the first place. Your advice, and Roissy’s, to “move your assets elsewhere” works only for those who don’t need it.

    tell me, how much time passed since you bought your first ticket to Indonesia until you got the resident’s VISA?


  771. Bhetti

    Thank you girlfriend. See, I knew you could add things of interest. You did.

    The long-term Arab married women I know don’t seem to have lost those stage 1/2 feelings exactly, because they’re the ones who want more attention, more love, more sex from him. *** The males — on the other hand — seem to have fallen out of love with them ages ago. I wonder if that plays a part in all of their behaviour.

    And from your next post:

    Thinking of one (non-Arab) happy couple I saw, who seemed to still have gooey feelings, they just seemed to get the dynamic right with relentless playfulness between them, as well as him casting himself in a rather masculine, ‘quiet now woman’ role.

    One way or another, keep the woman hungry. Maybe not entirely secure either, at least not from time to time. Though certainly your second scenario seems the much happier one.

    In my observation alpha male cheating (that she discovers) can re-ignate a relationship also — IF the alpha really does still love his wife, and if she’s got a lot on the ball herself. He’s got to reclaim her though. It helps if he always at least hinted he might cheat but not leave her or stop loving her in all ways. Lots of drama down this path.

    To be honest the scenario I outlined up thread to the extent I’ve lived it (though I’ve never had a woman that’s lived with me cheat on me, I’m quite sure) has been partly of my own making. It’s complicated. One live together relationship sort of automatically timed out. (Texas stripper off to law school at my urging, but not until after a couple of great years.) But in a couple of other cases I engineered an end in other ways. Through cheating without reclaiming basically, and letting her go. Even though I could have made open work in at least one of the cases. So blame me.

    My current love may be a keeper. Ah, hope springs eternal. But no, really. Green eyes – though only sort of, I know.


  772. Gig, I’m not going to talk about my own specific details.

    Asset management and anonymity are difficult skills to learn. But they are not unrealistic skills for a bright and inspired man to aquire.

    The process can be tackled in incremental steps. Travelling can start with tourist visas and savings. New income streams can be developed. New places to put savings can be aquired. Assets can be moved from the State into places where the State has no access. People do all these things all the time. It isn’t science fiction, or some James Bond ubermensch scenario. Its mere financial planning and carreer management. Not rocket science.

    And every man, even the ubermensch, is expected to have women troubles. What good is a life without women troubles?


  773. http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_608.html#agreements

    reality bites utopia.

    http://www.worldlawdirect.com/forum/international-law-issues/11442-extradition-law-between-us-israel-failure-pay-child-support.html

    notice that Israel is NOT in the first list. Nonetheless, the wife can still get an international arrest warrant against the man once he owns her more than 5000 USD. it won’t extradite him, but I guess he won’t be able to leave Israel anymore or renew his American passport

    xsplat is making two mistakes in this thread: an utopian view that it is easy and fast to emigrate (that works for dirty poor people in dirty poor countries) and, a mistake that half of the people in this thread make, that ALL cuckolded guys suddenly makan alpha conversion and turn from David Alexander omeganess to G manifesto alphaness


  774. A crappy life as a slave to pay for some other man’s kid, or a crappy life “off the grid” in the USA, or a crappy life in some foreign hellhole. What a choice!


  775. xsplat

    i agree with you that it is possible. We disagree about how easy and how fast it can be done. And about how difficult it becomes once you don’t have time. Would you hug sincerely a child you just discovered is not yours? Women are EXTREMELY good in noticing this kind of stuff.

    Once the guy knows about cuckoldry, even my 3 months estimate is to much. He’s got probably only a few weeks

    I posted a few links that you, PA and comment_gig might find interesting, but tehy are stuck in moderation


  776. Gig

    look, alice-in-indonesia, a guy with the vision and balls to plan and do this all in 3 months WOULDN’T BE cheated in the first place.

    Where do you think balls come from, anyway?

    From jumping into risky situations, where you have no choice but to succeed. Again and again.

    Why do you think women like Alphas? Because they are the ones who survived that process.

    Risk taking is sexy, because it makes a man or a dead man out of you. No boy will survive the process.


  777. Gig

    Would you hug sincerely a child you just discovered is not yours? Women are EXTREMELY good in noticing this kind of stuff.

    Once the guy knows about cuckoldry, even my 3 months estimate is to much. He’s got probably only a few weeks

    I have no idea how much time it would take for corporate wage earner to learn how to make it overseas. The task would be huge.

    – aside – I was in an internet cafe in Thailand, when the power went out. One guy was using his laptop, and kept typing as if nothing had happened. For him, nothing had. “Oh, you are lucky you are using your laptop”, the cafe owner commented. “No, it’s not luck”, the laptop user replied.

    You ask if I could sincerely hug a child that I found out was not mine. That assumes that up until that point, I was not making my own luck. That I had not already taken preventitive measures. That I would be unprepared for that eventuality.

    And when you assume that I would have only a few weeks or months, that also assumes that I didn’t have the ability to quickly make new options, within whatever country I was living in.

    I have many types of contingency plans, always.


  778. xsplat–

    What good is a life without women troubles?

    LoL.

    I can tell you one thing. I have absolutely no idea.


  779. O/sara: That quotation’s simplistic pseudo-logic (which does nothing for promoting the feminist cause), which completely neglects natural anorgasmia and — from what we’ve seen in misogynist patriarchies — men don’t give a crap about satisfying her unless there’s something in it for him. I am exaggerating a little: There is truth to it, but it’s too simplistic, he doesn’t have to sexually satisfy her in terms of actual orgasm in order to reproduce with her. Read this examination on Cultural suppression of female sexuality, which I’m rather enamored with at the moment.

    doug:

    You are such a girl!

    Here I was all along, thinking you noticed! More fool me. I am a young female and with a completely silly little crush on you (who, public shame of saying these exact words considering the venue and a certain previous post, I know nothing about). I really just likes to ask all the questions rather than necessarily having the answers. I’m no genius or piercing analyst. I genuinely surprise myself if I can come out with something decent. Probably why it frightened me to death for you to challenge me to.

    I’m not sure if I’m being entirely rational when I say keep her in my typical pro-forever (not 4ever, doug, not 4ever) stance. Maybe it’s the girl thing.

    I saw an awesome elderly couple in the GP the other day. The man was in a wheelchair (and it kinda seemed his memory was going). Still, he was funny and cocky and made all of us laugh including his wife. She was the one who remembered all his medications and clearly took care of him.

    It’s a really strange picture of what to hope for, even when things don’t seem that good via stereotypes.


  780. Xsplat:

    “You have no clue even what a women’s job is.”
    —to suck my dick and make me dinner.

    “You think it has something to do with your agenda.”
    –no, I don’t.


  781. sara, trying really hard:

    “I had a hysterectomy.”
    —Thank goodness for small miracles.

    “The world is now a safer place.”
    –unless your husband gets your current children tested….then the shit will hit the fan.

    “How’s your mother these days?”
    —just fine. How’s your syphillis?


  782. Tarl–

    A crappy life as a slave to pay for some other man’s kid, or a crappy life “off the grid” in the USA, or a crappy life in some foreign hellhole. What a choice

    As social action, the law should be changed. No man should have to pay child support for a child that didn’t issue from his DNA, unless he’s knowingly agreed to do so in writing. (It’s a VERY weighty decision, more so than buying a house or other real estate, and should have similar agreement in writing protection against fraudlent claims, which women wiil, OH YEAH, be very prone to make.)

    Meanwhile as personal action let any girl who falls in love with you, when she asks whether you want kids someday (and she will) know that of course you’d expect immediate routine paternity testing at birth. Trust but verify. If she continues to object after you with utmost serenity tell her it’s a deal breaker, dump her. She’s just massively failed a very important shit test, whether for feminist ideological or deep need to cheat reasons. Either way or combined she reeks. Next.


  783. “How’s your mother these days?”
    —just fine. How’s your syphillis?

    That there is fun dialogue. That’s the uncensored chick flick I want to see.

    doug: ease the filly in gently, bless. You can’t just throw unconventional ideas like that out of the blue without setting her up. I would’ve totally went ‘WHAT? I WOULD NEVER CHEAT, YOU —!’ (especially coming from a society where even such coming close to aspersions are unthinkable), not listen to reason and then allow him to get away. That conditioning is very common and she’d have to adore the hell out of you plus not listen to the girlfriends to not reflexively react like that.


  784. Q. WHAT IS THE TEXT OF THE ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND RECIPROCATING COUNTRIES?

    A. The Text of a model international child support reciprocity agreement with the Untied States is on our site.

    The text for agreements already in force is not yet available on line, but is under construction. As each agreement becomes available here, you will be able to select the individual country or province listed below to access that information.

    Australia
    Canadian Provinces: British Columbia, Manitoba, Nova Scotia
    Czech Republic
    Ireland
    Poland
    Portugal
    Slovak Republic

    from the US department of State. The whole link is awaiting moderation

    fun question: now that Obama is president, is the list above going to:a)increase (b)decrease (c)stay the same?


  785. My wife’s ex-husband returned to Israel two months ago and has since has stopped making child support payments (he hold an American & an Israeli citizenship). He should be paying for the next eight years.

    Under international law or extradition agreement between the US and Israel, can we apply for a petition/motion to request that Israel will extradite him back to the US? And will they? Can we claim it’s a felony?

    We assume it will be a lengthy process and we are not wealthy. Should we even spend the time and money on this endeavor?

    Thanks

    ANSWER: If the amount is over 5000 or 10,000 dollars due you can get his passport blocked and can seek a felony warrant for his arrest. They likely will not extradite but he will have a warrant for his arrest and at some point they may snag him.


  786. dude, you don’t have 10 years. you got a few months before your passport is blocked


  787. BTW, Hax has a live Q&A session on Thursdays if anyone would like to ask her to clarify her viewpoints on parasite children.


  788. Bhetti-

    doug: ease the filly in gently, bless. You can’t just throw unconventional ideas like that out of the blue without setting her up. I would’ve totally went ‘WHAT? I WOULD NEVER CHEAT, YOU —!

    You’re right about that of course.

    See how much it helps me when I have you by my side?


  789. lurker

    Xsplat:

    “You have no clue even what a women’s job is.”
    —to suck my dick and make me dinner.

    “You think it has something to do with your agenda.”
    –no, I don’t.

    Lurker, you are being as bad as Kim, in your lack of grasp of irony and introspection.

    What is the job of a woman, from HER point of view. Your answer – to suck my dick and make me dinner – and that has nothing to do with your agenda.

    At least women have sexual characteristics that interest me. A man with the brain power of a woman can’t hold my attention for long.


  790. Gig, I will concede that some men are too embeded within their social/political systems to be able to escape.

    I’m not such a man, and I know that any inspired and bright man can also be not such a man.


  791. economic/social/political systems.

    Be a free man. You’ll appreciate the change. Unless you are some cur who prefers to be a pet.


  792. Just to throw it in here, paternity’s an important Islamic issue influencing a lot of ‘rules’. It’s an important justification used for not allowing polyandry or adoption in its true form: adoption’s replaced with the idea of something roughly translated as ‘sponsorship’ where the adoptee must be made aware of their origins and not abandon their identity of them, nor their proper surname if they have one, and cannot be considered true family in some matters e.g. a sponsored male can marry their sponsor’s daughters and thus all the non-family protections apply.

    doug: Have you always been this talented at quickly picking up your cues from what people say? The wiser choice is always to remember your medication yourself… still, glad to be of ‘help’, trouble. I know what you did. It’s amazing. Let’s grow old together, without the sap. You mean man, you can’t go around saying such things.


  793. Read this examination on Cultural suppression of female sexuality, which I’m rather enamored with at the moment.

    Isn’t this the one that says that female sexual oppression did not originate in men but in women, due to the desire to keep the supply of sex low?


  794. I’d just like to note a few things while they’re still on the grey matter.

    It has been suggested by some, that those who advocate for MPT are in fact not only regressives bent on rolling back Abortion rights and the like for Women, but are indeed Misogynists of the worst kind. While there are many Men who are more than capable of speaking for themselves, I thought to give my own personal views on the matter, and then address Old British Common Law.

    For me, personally, the charges are utterly baseless and devoid of any truth in fact-while I am Pro Life I accept the laws of the land, and recognize the right of Women to do as they will with their bodies; moreover, speaking to the larger Seduction Community, I dare say that if a poll were taken that the overwhelming majority of Men within it and the MRA community I might add, would favor the Pro Choice position. Indeed, this was the case when the Matt Dubay case was being waged in court, which fell on deaf ears, both the courts and the feminist allies therein.

    I do not hate Women indeed my understanding of Game has given me an appreciation of and in many cases, an empathy for Women that I did not have previously; nevertheless all of this is beside the point. What is at issue here is accountability, on the part of the one who’s decisions in the matter are not only unilateral but final and irreversible-the Woman’s. All I and indeed, most advocates of MPT ask is that a measure of accountability be taken. No one wishes to shuffle Women back into the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant as it were.

    As for OBCL, what is striking on the part of those who consider themselves feminists, is that they rail against Marriage as a Patriarchal institution bent on dehumanizing Women enmasse, yet seem to have no qualms using key elements of the very same institution to dehumanize and literally enslave Men. Old British Common Law holds, that *any* kids born during the life of a marriage, are automatically presumed to belong to the father, regardless as to the kids’ true origins or not. It is this truly calcified, outmoded feature of marital law, that is at the heart of the current debate now, and forms the basis of many rulings in the face of documented DNA evidence proving that said kid is not the father’s, and hadn’t been in many cases, for years-the only conclusion being, that he was duped, since the only party who has any real idea who the true daddy is, is the momma.

    Again, this feature, a dinosaur in our time given the massive changes that have come to marriage over the past three to four decades, forms the basis of many a ruling in both married and even cohabitating couples, when it comes to Paternity Fraud.

    In other words, Women want it both ways-they want to be “liberated” from aspects of marriage and even cohabitation that they find restrictive, but also want restrictions placed on their spouses/duped daddies. One is hardpressed to think up a bigger conceit.

    Again, the issue wrt MPT comes down to the very argument feminists made for Roe v Wade more than 35 years ago-does a human being have the right to determine when or even if, he or she is to become a parent, or not?

    Well?

    O


  795. Bhetti

    The wiser choice is always

    Wiser schmizer.

    I LIKE having you by my side. Wisdom be damned.

    You know everytime I hear you say “trouble” to me, I start to get a little hard.

    Maybe I can get you to chant it or something??


  796. It has been suggested by some, that those who advocate for MPT are in fact not only regressives bent on rolling back Abortion rights and the like for Women,

    No need to roll back the right to an abortion – only the “right” to force a man to pay for a kid that’s not his.

    Hax has a live Q&A session on Thursdays if anyone would like to ask her to clarify her viewpoints on parasite children.

    Geez, do you really need any further clarification on what a Harvard-educated Fembot who works for the Post is going to think about anything?


  797. doug: this is the point where I have to be embarrassed, while suppressing the urge to type ‘trouble’ over and over and over. Anyway, you have no clue how I sound, so you can’t hear me. Now go expend your perviness on your flavour of the 48 months.


  798. Having read these later comments, I’ve learned
    -Roissy readers function without trust– a strange and alien concept to them.

    Novaseeker stated the practical crux: The problem with the “if they want it they can ask for it or do it themselves” is that having to ask for it already places a substantial burden on the man in question. He has to weigh the emotional cost to the relationship of even suggesting he has doubts about paternity, on the one hand, against the potential benefit of avoiding a false paternity. That’s an undue burden, and places men in a very difficult situation. Having the tests happen as a matter of course just makes it a routine thing — no emotion-laden conversations, no intimations of suspected infidelities and the like — just a routine test and the chips fall where they may.

    I understand the burden that he and others have described. No one would want to be in that situation. So, his options are
    -1) to man up and ask the question. “Honey , for reasons X, Y, and Z, I am doubting my paternity of this child.” You know me, and that my mother cheated on my father, that I’ve been distrustful since, and haunted that it could happen to me.” I will clear any doubts by having a paternity test done on the baby tomorrow afternoon at 3. ” The downside cost is the humiliation for the wife, but she benefits in greater understanding of his emotional needs.
    -2) taking the baby for the test without the wife’s knowledge
    -3) asking the state to routinely do the deed for him because he is afraid to address the emotion-laden topic. The direct cost is clinical time and test materials. The huge cost is paid by all new mothers who are presumed to be guilty of infidelity and misappropriated paternity by the state. The test makes them feel humiliated and guilty until proven innocent.

    MPT is for cowards.


  799. Anony – Is this your first time using shaming language? Your attempts seem transparent and quite amateurish. Perhaps these little tricks work on your feeble beta husband, but they are not going to work with this crowd.


  800. Bhetti–

    Too explicit != pervy.

    Ok, ok, maybe that was over the top on here. (but it’s true.)

    *chastened* (sort of)

    while suppressing the urge

    Hmmm.


  801. The idea that doing a paternity test without asking her is “cowardly” is simply dumb. She is not harmed in any way if she doesn’t know about it and it turns out you are indeed the father. The idea that she needs to “understand your emotional needs” by telling her something she doesn’t need to know is absurd. Basically anony wants to deter men from doing this test at all by forcing them to do something there is no reason to do (tell the wife about it).

    I love the way that in case 1, anony calls on men to have the courage to ask their wives to submit to a paternity test when they are unsure, but contends in case 3 that poor, defenseless women do not have the courage to submit to a test that cannot harm them unless they are cheating whores. How about this: all women need to “man up” and submit to a mandatory state-administered test, so there!


  802. anony

    “Honey , for reasons X, Y, and Z, I am doubting my paternity of this child.”

    Simply dreadful advice. The worst possible script. Well I guess even worse would be to hemm and haw and then finally admit under questioning what you suggest offering in explanation.

    Men.

    Instead simply say before marriage that you’ve long decided it would be your policy with any woman under all circumstances. It’s too big a deal, and there’s too much female cheating out there these days (despite her being the last person, blah, blah, blah) to not “trust but verify”.

    That men is the RIGHT way to do it. Though with the set up Bhetti suggests depending on and addressing where she’s coming from culturally.


  803. MU Nevertheless, from all that I’ve personally read from Chic herself, she would NOT choose to go out w/a Beta Male, and neither would the vast majority of the ladies who regularly post here. Most of them have clearly stated their preferences, and Beta Males aint it.

    Wrong, I have gone out with beta males. I never stated that I hate beta males. There are many types of Beta males and most men are beta males. Hill Harper would qualify as beta but I find him very attractive.

    Mu, I would really like for you to post where I said such a thing. Pull it up from the archives.

    mu Most of them have clearly stated their preferences, and Beta Males aint it

    The type of slacker beta who has no goals, ambitions in life and only hobby is playing video games, is unattractive to most women, yes. Most betas don’t fall into this category, most are the men you see on the train going to work every morning-beta. The men you see with their families at Disney World-beta. The construction workers you see in a dive bar drinking with their coworkers after a long day’s work-beta. It is what it is and I have no hate for those men nor the slacker beta. Only thing is, while I’m turned off by the slacker beta, the other three are relationship or husband material for most women including myself.
    Men do the same in that all of you want the girl you could be in King or SI yet the average man will end with a 7 at best. Does that mean a guy is evil for lusting after a 10 he sees in the magazine or looking discreetly at the 9’s he see on the streets-NO. Such a man being human and just responding to nature or nurture instincts. Again folks it is what it is.

    mu Chic has also said, not long after she made the remark referred to above, to Dave Alex, that he would be unsatisfactory because “he couldn’t protect her”.

    Very true. Note, DA meets my threshold for attractiveness, as well as intelligence and having hobbies, a few of which I share. Quick note: I have a lot of respect for DA’s intelligence as I’v noted here numerous times. I personally can’t see myself with a dumb man no matter how good-looking. A dumb man ranks even lower than one who is unwilling to protect me.

    muThe harsh truth is that Chic and other ladies will drop their drawers for the Roissys of the world a heck of a lot faster than for the Dave Alex’s.

    Uh, kindly remove my name from that list. Having a man who is willing to protect you does not translate into dating someone like Roissy. Just because a man is good at sleeping around doesn’t correlate with being willing to protect you. There are some men who would run if confronted by a bigger stronger man(no gun), leaving their woman to fend for herself. Sorry, I just can’t get with this type of guy.

    Furthermore Mu , I’ve mentioned(look into the archives) that I put distance between myself and men with that Obama/Clinton aura. I don’t like the way they make me “feel”. Yes I like good-looking men, no I don’t apologize for that but I’ve dated men who are not “10”s. I date men who I would call “6”s. So what, you aren’t into size 00s and I don’t begrudge you that, Roissy isn’t in to big booty chics I don’t begrudge him that either . We all have our preferences.

    Now a Whiskey, MB or Peter type is more my speed. I don’t see either of the two running away if they have to protect their family from an armed intruder, but otherwise they are easy going. I don’t like drama, and I’m the type who can entertain herself fairly easy on the cheap. In other words, I don’t need a man who will smoother and he needs to be the same. I have my own hobbies and he should have his.


  804. anony: Hmm, from my viewpoint, the best model is mandatory in an ‘opt out’ style — mandatory to stay in if any of the parents want it — i.e. there will still be an element of ‘at risk’. People are more likely to view things as ok if their choice is opting out rather than opting in. It isn’t cost-efficient and it will have to be out of the pocket of whoever wants it: state, man or even ‘well, er, actually, who IS the daddy?’ woman herself. Men may not want this enough for it to be widespread to be destigmatised and I can certainly see any government justifying itself on why it shouldn’t cough up any money for it. They’d still have to confront their women and the government would have to stand up to some very loud groups to actually put something like this through.

    Pushing for MPT, I think, is more a vehicle for widespread men’s rights protesting rather than a coward’s way out. It forces the common man to think ‘well, actually, I have the right to this if I want it…. do I want it?’


  805. …that female sexual oppression did not originate in men but in women, due to the desire to keep the supply of sex low?

    Seems to me that most social mores come from women, and most shaming of women comes from other women.

    So that origin of sexual repression makes good sense. Or at least as one of many origins. After all, who hates sluts more than other women?


  806. Doug – I don’t get it. Why must there be any agreement with the wife? Why not just get it done?

    Am I missing something?


  807. xsplat–

    Doug – I don’t get it. Why must there be any agreement with the wife? Why not just get it done?

    What I’ve been talking about is establishing routine paternity testing as a fact of the relationship from the beginning of it’s become serious and potentially child producing / supporting.

    That will be a factor in helping to prevent cheating.

    In addition, when the woman has consented to testing, it’s by any and all feminist theories or laws out there, admissible in court.

    However, failing all that, sure, I’d just do it on the sneak tip if I had to.

    Capish?


  808. @bhetti,
    the common man has always “had the right” to testing. I see no good reason why the common man can’t take care of his own insecurities, rather than burden the state with them.

    I understand the ease of “opt out”, but that doesn’t make it beneficial to all parties involved. I take umbrage at being treated this way by the state, just to please a few trust-deficient men.


  809. @Rod,
    I don’t advocate shaming, but if a man can not address an emotion-laden topic with his wife, then he is handicapped. Asking the state to address the topic is weak.


  810. Again we see the hemming and hawing-what about the very real medical concerns here? What about this-does the child have the right to know his/her true parentage is? Or not?

    MPT easily solves these matters, and the costs are easily dealt with-the happy daddy pays for the test which is simply bundled into the rest of the hospital bills. No daddy? No problem, mommy pays for it, afterall, it was *her choice* to bring the baby into the world.

    Ok, so what’s the next excuse?

    O


  811. anony

    the common man has always “had the right” to testing. I see no good reason why the common man can’t take care of his own insecurities, rather than burden the state with them.

    Transparently disingenuous.

    The cost to the state when this stuff is done in volume would be trivial. Besides, it could be state mandated but privately paid (in private health cost payer systems). Part of the routine costs of child birth. Again, trivial addition when done in the millions or hundred thousands every year. $25? less?

    Remember it’s estimated that in 10% of all births, paternity is mis-attributed.


  812. @Tarl,
    The idea that doing a paternity test without asking her is “cowardly” is simply dumb. She is not harmed in any way if she doesn’t know about it and it turns out you are indeed the father.

    I agree with you. (option 2 above) I have more respect with the man who arranges the test to be done, with or without the mother’s knowledge, than a man who petitions the state to do it for him.


  813. @doug,
    the $$ is the least of it.


  814. Oh, ya, I get it now, Doug. You explain to her about paternity testing as one means to avoid infidelity. Ya, sounds good.

    My means of avoiding children is to explain that I have a passport.


  815. anony–

    I don’t advocate shaming,

    Sure you do. Do you not advocate shaming straight up, no nuance, hate filled racists?

    I advocate a return to strongly shaming careless sluts who become single mothers. The failure to keep that up, at feminist behest, has greatly contributed to the explosion in the percentages of outside of marriage or any other committed relationship childbirth. At 70% it’s highest in the black community, but has reached the mid or high 20% range in the non latino white American community.

    If a man can not address an emotion-laden topic with his wife, then he is handicapped. Asking the state to address the topic is weak.

    So what?

    Any woman who requests or “needs” welfare is self evidently weak.


  816. anony:
    You are discriminating against a minority! PC brigade, attack! I kid.

    The problem may be the trust overfilled men, who’ve had it done to them. You’re thinking of yourself and of the trust-deficient men when I’ve outlined a common scenario right where I am where it’s the child themselves who discover it via things like blood types. What kind of trauma is that?

    That sort of scheme has a much higher chance of benefiting men, who deserve to benefit and would not ordinarily be ‘trust-deficient’ enough to make it happen.

    doug:
    You deserve to be called pervy for your relentless teasing and torture, including the mysteriousness.

    No lie, I enjoy it and encourage it (not the mysteriousness). Still: I’m realising very deeply how I have no equivalent flavour of the 48 months to expend on so I am inches from madness. Entirely self-inflicted and an interesting form of masochism.

    It was inappropriate in the sense that you don’t want to start using poor abused roissy’s blog (or anywhere else!) for…

    No, I will not go to first cyberbase with you.

    (Am blaming you for what I’m responsible for. How many bets somebody’s going to go ‘women, eh?’)


  817. Anony,
    Throughout this thread I have laidout what I consider very measured and reasoned arguments in favor of MPT. If you disagree, perhaps you can go through them and come up an even better reasoned counter argument? I welcome the chance to be corrected.

    O


  818. @Obsidian,
    MPT easily solves these matters, and the costs are easily dealt with-the happy daddy pays for the test which is simply bundled into the rest of the hospital bills. No daddy? No problem, mommy pays for it, afterall, it was *her choice* to bring the baby into the world

    If you want to talk cost, Obsidian, which is the least of the concerens, then whose gonna pay?
    -Medicaid (ie NO one)
    -Daddy? ( rarely, almost never see cash payers)
    -private insurance ( denial of payment certain)
    -Medicare ( doubtful the mother is >65)

    So, in the end, by your options, NO oNE will pay. The hospital will eat it.


  819. anony

    the $$ is the least of it.

    Remind me.

    What again is the MOST of it?


  820. Again Obsidian,
    The non-payment is a trivial point.
    The presumption of guilt, the humiliation are the problems.


  821. Anony,
    Please review my post above. But to even more directly answer your question Anony, I think it fair to say that this is *one* instance where Men enmasse will be only too happy to defray the costs of MPT in the form of their tax dollars, should it come to that-I certainly would be willing to do that. Its one instance where I can potentially see public spending potentially benefitting *me* should I need it.

    What say you, brothers? Yea, or nay?

    O


  822. @doug,
    On shaming:
    preemptively shame to prevent the transgression, forgive after the transgression.
    Yes, preemptively shame single mothers and welfare beneficiaries.


  823. anony–

    The presumption of guilt, the humiliation are the problems.

    10% are guilty. What’s wrong with catching them?

    There may or may not be serious consequences. That depends on her husband. Many of the weak men you “aren’t shaming” will probably forgive and forget. Bhetti’s opt out idea works better here actually.


  824. on May 13, 2009 at 5:40 pm lurkingsince08

    Two things:

    1. The first Google result for “mandatory paternity test” is a Roissy post from 2008 advocating mandatory paternity tests: http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/mandatory-paternity-testing-has-arrived/
    2. A former Tony Blair advisor believes the negative effects of out-of-wedlock births are so bad it’s time for the state to force bady-daddies to marry baby-mommas: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/5250767/Couples-with-children-outside-wedlock-should-be-married-by-the-State.html

    If anyone else linked to these stories…well, I’m not reading through 800+ comments.


  825. Anony,
    It was *you* who brought up the non payment trope in the first place, w/all due respect. I am simply saying that is the least of our problems because in so many ways it is easily handled. Like Kim you have not given a clear, cogent and rational, let alone logical, reason as to why MPT should not be done given the massive changes on the marital and cohabitation fronts in our time. As mentioned earlier I have posted a series of very well laidout arguments in favor of MPT. I await your equally reasoned counter arguments to MPT in opposition. Come, let us reason together.

    O


  826. @Obsidian,
    I think it fair to say that this is *one* instance where Men enmasse will be only too happy to defray the costs of MPT in the form of their tax dollars, should it come to that-I certainly would be willing to do that. Its one instance where I can potentially see public spending potentially benefitting *me*

    OKay, that made me laugh to envision taxpayers protesting to demand to be taxed for MPT, :-) :-)

    at the cost of humiliation by almost all women, and the loss of “innocent until proven guilty”. HUGE cost.


  827. anony: Let’s give you an alternative scenario for your psychological health: ‘My man had a relative who had cystic fibrosis and is so scared of it, he wants to test if I’m a carrier. We’ve never had cystic fibrosis in the family. It’s understandable, it’s not about presuming my genes are defective but simply confirming the assumption that they aren’t’.

    Pain, humiliation? What about the relative pain/humiliation of cuckold fathers or kids who discover it? Can you not think about them, be altruistic and simply… get over it and stop crying about something actually quite trivial for your non-cheating self?

    Yes, you’re tested. Because some women do it and don’t care about the possible consequences. Humanity bears the humiliation and pain for its actions collectively. Do I really want my bag searched at the airport? No. Do I recognise it’s a security measure? Yes.


  828. @Obsidian,
    certainly you grasp the gravity of the “guilty until proven innocent” constitutional shift. Seriously, you want all women humiliated and subject to maternal testing (with presumption of guilt until proven innocent) Is that really want you want? I’m not usually a “slippery slope” worry-wart, but “what would be next?


  829. Seriously, you want all women humiliated and subject to maternal testing (with presumption of guilt until proven innocent)

    This does not “humiliate” women any more than routine drug testing humiliates athletes or job applicants.

    The irony is that the mandatory nature of the testing is precisely why it is NOT humiliating.

    Anony, answer the above analogy.
    Do you think that routine drug testing humiliates athletes and job applicants?


  830. @bhetti,
    a trust-deficient man can deal with it privately with his wife.
    a cystic fibrosis scarred man can deal with it privately with his fiance.


  831. anony-

    at the cost of humiliation by almost all women, and the loss of “innocent until proven guilty”. HUGE cost.

    This is again transparent horseshiite.

    If it’s routine for all births it will humiliate none but the guilty. If 10% of all births have misattributed paternity, that probably means that in at least 25% of cases the woman will have some worry about what the test will show. After all, in most cases of cheating the woman is still having sex with her husband more often, if only to hide it.

    I think it’s pretty obviously why you’re arguing so obstinately.

    It’s clear to me you either are a cheating wife, or thing there’s a good chance you will be one.


  832. @87,
    routine drug testing is welcomed by the athletic community because it keeps sports clean. it might otherwise be a wide-spread problem.


  833. 87

    The irony is that the mandatory nature of the testing is precisely why it is NOT humiliating.

    Bingo.

    Exactly right.

    You know what’s humiliating? Being show by scientific proof to have cheated on and lied to your husband, with the prospect that he won’t owe any child support as a result of his pre parenting discovery.

    That’s the humiliation that anony is insisting on and feeling, and transferring to “all women forced to undergo the test”.

    She knows she’s gonna get caught, or might well be in the future.


  834. Opt out is not a bad idea. That way it is automatically on the table and the decision tp opt out can be made in that context.

    The non-shaming shaming is quite funny — so easy to spot, actually.


  835. Anony,
    Since you seem to be concerned with the “guilty until innocent” theme, and since Kim has brought up Abortion, let’s consider a few things along those lines, while we await your well thought out counter arguments against MPT, shall we?

    You may recall the Duke LaCrosse case that took place a few years back-Crystal Gale Mangum, a Black stripper, accused, on her sole authority and witness, three White Duke students of not only raping her but of also making racial taunts, rising the crime to a Hate Crime. Of course in the end the charges were proven fallacious, but the damage had been done-to this day, statements made in favor of Mangum on the part of many of the Duke U faculty, have not been rescinded.

    And that is hardly an aberrant case-accross the country and indeed in other countries, false rape allegations are rampant. And what’s worse, the Man in question is guilty until proven innocent, w/only the sole word of the aggreived party, the Woman, needed to cast a pall over this Man’s entire reputation, career, indeed his very life.

    Yet, Women like yourself didn’t seem all that interested in being heard in opposition to Mangum’s actions, even when it was proven false-indeed, if anything, websites like Pandagon and Feministing were keen to keep on keepin’ on, truth or facts be damned. There was no “fact finding or truth telling” to be done on Oprah, she didn’t find it important to air the story. She did find it necessary to give Don Imus a piece of her mind though.

    If ever there was a case that made a mockery of the crime of rape the Duke case was it, and where were the feminists? Nowhere to be found. As per usual.

    Bringing it back to the question at hand, Men are considered guilty until proven innocent everyday in family courts, presumed the daddy even when its proven he’s not. You rail against the very prospect of MPT on what it might do to Women, yet you say nothing about Paternity Fraud has indeed done to many Men. Interesting.

    Still waiting for those keen counter arguments.

    O


  836. @doug,
    I think it’s pretty obviously why you’re arguing so obstinately.

    because I prefer to be treated with respect by the state,
    becasue I believe in small government, not a daddy-state to interfere with private/family matters
    becasue I believe in a presumption of innocence.
    because I live in a culture of trust

    your way off the mark on the infidelity idea. spotless I am.


  837. @87,
    routine drug testing is welcomed by the athletic community because it keeps sports clean. it might otherwise be a wide-spread problem.

    BINGO.

    If you don’t see the EXACT analogy here, then either (1) you have a hopelessly naive view of women**, or (2) you are beyond hope.

    **If this is the case, bless your heart, because that would make you one of those few women who are morally righteous enough that they could actually hold a naive view of their own gender.


  838. @Obsidian,
    Men are considered guilty until proven innocent everyday in family courts, presumed the daddy even when its proven he’s not. You rail against the very prospect of MPT on what it might do to Women, yet

    Obisidian,
    my first suspicions at the Duke case were that the stripper was lying. HOnestly. I awaited facts just like everyone else. funny for you to address that topic because I work in medicine, and “collect the facts” myself in rape cases. (very few available in the medical details but done anyway) I’m fully aware there a slimmy women with lame “rape” stories.

    I would support any man in a Paternity Fraud case–facts supporting of course.


  839. @87
    analogies are a weak form of argument. your analogy is better than most presented here, BUT, the majority of all new mothers gain nothing by MPT; it is an invasion of family privacy, an assault on her presumption of innocence. Athletes gain collectively because it keeps their competitions viable.


  840. Okay since you asked for a response from me, anony, here you go:

    I think you are using classical shaming tactics — it is “weak” for men to ask the state for mandatory DNA testing. I’ve been through enough shaming tactics in my life to recognize it for what it is — an attempt to derail the rational analysis of something by driving past that and trying to get at a man’s insecurities around masculinity and sexuality. And it’s pretty ineffective with me.

    On the substance, I don’t think mandatory DNA testing is any more accusatory or humiliating than the testing that is already done for any number of things at birth (see: http://www.ynhh.org/maternity/after_born/tests.html). One of them screens for syphilis (legally required) — isn’t that humilating, too?

    The bottom line here is that if the test is mandatory and routine and applied to every person, it can’t possibly be accusatory or humiliating — it is simply a routine test like a blood test. It’s only accusatory if a particular woman is singled out for the test — *that* would be saying: “aha, we suspect you were unfaithful”. If the test is routinely performed, it’s just a routine thing — no accusation or humiliation involved for women who have nothing to fear from the test results.


  841. on May 13, 2009 at 6:21 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Whatever894@Yahoo.com…I sent you whatever pages I was able to save before he deleted them from the web.

    doug –

    Dave in Hawaii’s newly found, mid marriage, alpha game may be a successful example. It’s almost as if he became a different man for his wife though.

    Nah…it was more like a wake up call and a reconnection with the kind of man I was when I was a bachelor. I unknowingly and ignorantly fell into Beta behavior during marriage.

    I was NOT like that when my wife and I first started dating. We dated for a long time before we got married…I think that had I been Beta during that time period, she wouldn’t have said “I do” in the first place.

    *Doing my part to help this thread reach 900.


  842. BUT, the majority of all new mothers gain nothing by MPT;

    They also LOSE nothing, darling. Why do you refuse to admit this?

    it is an invasion of family privacy

    It isn’t.

    A routine check to assure that “family” doesn’t need the quotation marks is not an unacceptable invasion of privacy.

    You’re defining “family privacy” to mean “WOMAN’S privacy”. This is not good.

    If you don’t like my analogy, here’s a better one:

    I’m a little pissed about the security checks at airports.

    And I understand that a VERY small percentage of airline passengers are terrorists.

    However, I understand the purpose of security screening, and it doesn’t hurt my feelings.


  843. anony: Slippery slope is never valid as an argument and you realise that.

    There would be nothing particularly morally wrong for screening everyone in the population for cystic fibrosis either. It’s just not done because it’s not cost or time effective and people don’t particularly want it. Still, putting such a system into place would mean that people who’re carriers could recognise this and allow them to make reproductive choices based on this. It would be beneficial.

    If it was state-mandated, it’s ‘innocent until proven guilty’. If it was individually motivated, it’s ‘guilty until proven innocent’. Either way, you’re actually projecting, because the true answer is ‘nothing until there is proof because you cannot actually generalise’.

    How many people in the airport are actually security threats? How many MORE security threats would there be if there was no testing for it? There is no presumed trust when too many women have failed. Get real.

    You simply don’t consider cuckoldry a ‘security threat’ and value certain (tenuous?) freedoms over measures against it. Which is up to you. Let them suffer! It’s not as if cuckolded men become the people who campaign for the very form of political power you despise. It’s not as if they’ll find their own answers in the form of personal fundamentalist beliefs. It’s not as if the only alternative solution to consider is to go back to locking women away from other men. Yeah, every guy just knows when she cheated on him and will perform a test himself, with or without her knowledge. He won’t find out years later. The very idea of the possibility of mandatorily being tested will not help encourage her to be faithful. Oh no. There’s no ‘benefit’. It will not altogether avoid a lot of heartache for a lot of people. Oh no.

    The state interferes all the time in family matters: divorce, domestic abuse, child custody, child abuse and neglect. To be honest, no state interference in that realm is disastrous.

    Deal with each interference on its own merits. Surely you can do this.


  844. @nova,
    On shaming: I’ll agree on “weak” but do you not believe a man who can not address “emotion laden ” topics with his wife is “handicapped”? that term may be less shaming , but still true.

    On newborn tests: to my knowledge, all other testing is genetic abnormalities, such as PKU, hypothyroidism. The STD testing of pregnancy is potentially humiliating.

    The totality of issues related to MPT for new mothers would be insulting, esp. since it can be managed on a private/family as needed basis.

    I do have some sympathy for Bhetti’s arguement that all children have the right to know of their parents. But again,it is the mother who must ensure this right.


  845. @87,
    However, I understand the purpose of security screening, and it doesn’t hurt my feelings.

    I guess it comes down to the sentiments of the majority. If few protest loudly, then an idea will prevail. Few of us would protest airport security, AND the task of security has always been in the government’s hands. Handing over a NEW task to the government ( paternity check) feels invasive and another loss of privacy.


  846. On newborn tests: to my knowledge, all other testing is genetic abnormalities, such as PKU, hypothyroidism. The STD testing of pregnancy is potentially humiliating.

    The totality of issues related to MPT for new mothers would be insulting, esp. since it can be managed on a private/family as needed basis.

    I do have some sympathy for Bhetti’s arguement that all children have the right to know of their parents. But again,it is the mother who must ensure this right.

    Anony –

    Actually they take blood to perform a syphilis screen for it. Isn’t that humiliating by suggesting the mother may have syphilis?

    And you still have not responded to the point several of us have made: a test that is applied across the board to everyone is by definition not humiliating. It is only humiliating when a person is singled out for the test based on suspicion. A woman who is secure in her husband’s fidelity is not threatened in the least by a test that is performed on all babies routinely to confirm that.

    Leaving it up to the mother is like putting the cookie monster in charge of minding the cookie jar. The mother has every incentive to hide this — she cannot be trusted to do anything other than hide it.

    And your increased interest in the children knowing who their parents are as compared with the right of men to not raise children of other men without their knowledge and consent is quite transparent as to the ultimate agenda here: men have no rights with respect to this, and if there is an issue, it relates to the children’s rights, and those are of course controlled by the mother.


  847. I meant to say “secure in her husband’s paternity…”


  848. @87,
    They also LOSE nothing, darling. Why do you refuse to admit this?

    they lose their privacy and dignity during an otherwise private time of their lives.


  849. potentially humilianting if the wife had been effectively unfaithful


  850. The STD testing of pregnancy is potentially humiliating.

    Now you’re getting warmer.

    It’s potentially humiliating. But that potential is only realized if the woman has STD’s.

    Similarly, MPT would only humiliate cuckolding wives. By YOUR OWN reasoning, as evidenced by your use of “potentially” above, you realize this.

    Ergo, your protest against MPT is tantamount to a defense of cheating whores.

    ASIDE:

    Someone needs to smack me and tell me to stop using logic with women.
    Sigh.

    I know this in real life, but when women are just electrons, I forget that they’re women.


  851. @nova,

    a test that is applied across the board to everyone is by definition not humiliating. It is only humiliating when a person is singled out for the test based on suspicion. A woman who is secure in her husband’s fidelity is not threatened in the least by a test that is performed on all babies routinely to confirm that.

    ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.
    -all men get rectal exams….not humiliating?
    even in the context of “medicine” , and “routine” , people feel humiliated. 87 just gave the example of airport screening, which most regard as an undignified experience. Don’t deny it.

    A woman secure in her fidelity will be annoyed, insulted, and humiliated by her loss of self-determination and interference by the state.


  852. Anony –

    Unlike a rectal exam or airport screening, a DNA test does not involve any participation by the mother. A swab is taken from the mouth of the baby and the father. Are you saying that the thought that this test is taking place in another room in the hospital, out of your sight and completely inconsequential to you unless it comes back negative, is as humiliating as a rectal exam or an airport pat-down?

    You can’t be serious.


  853. MPT is exactly the kind of idea that once it becomes more widespread, will serve as an exact measure of slutiness in a woman.

    and anony, yes, your blind fanaticism against it, plus the shamin tactics, rejection of obvious analogies between your opinions and the case for MPT, make me believe that you have a very high stake against MPT. Like a bastard son. Or at least a son that may be a bastard


  854. No analogies will suffice, so an idea will be accepted or not based on the totality of its merits/benefits/consequences/cost. In totality MPT is a loser because of all the points I”ve addressed. Don’t try to sell this based upon its isolated merits to a few trust-deficit men who are handicapped in addressing an emotion-laden topic with their wives.


  855. anedocte:

    I mentioned MPT to two different groups of girls I know. Their reaction was anonyesque. Then I mentioned the fact that at least 10% of english children have an ” alternative” father

    funny to see how everything changes. None but the ugliest girl in the two groups remained with the same opinion. They all quickly understood that given the facts, being openly against MPT would be an obvious sign of slutiness. The ugly girl, being an incarnation of the roswell aliens, had nothing to lose by defending the slutty position


  856. Hey, novaseeker, perhaps you Freudian slipped your way into a motivation for cuckoldry: REVENGE!

    Cheating bastard.

    You still shouldn’t raise someone else’s kid, because that is not proportionate to your crime (unless the woman scorned is Israel, then a nuclear bomb will still not be enough).

    anony: Yes. Rectal exams to catch GI problems. Airports to catch security threats. Cervical checks to catch cervical cancer. Your point? Cuckoldry is not worth it and the benefits are not worth it. The victims of cuckoldry can get over their issues, because women apparently can’t get over it according to you, even if its dealt with sensitively. Such fragile creatures we are, so empowered and yet so delicate! Oh, state and father of my child, how you wound me with your brutal accusations! I will surely cry myself to sleep every night for 10 years because a woman as having any strength is a myth.

    I don’t know, anony, not to trivialise because I know there’re people with rather… delicate.. personality types — who think the state is coming after them and restricting or questioning their choices when a representative dares to even say ‘boo’ to them — but I have (misplaced?) faith the majority of women can handle it and that the benefits outweight the costs. Still, I think you’re valuing individual freedoms over collective good on principle.

    I believe you see the collective good, now, however. As much as you ever will.


  857. @nova,
    I am saying that couching the test in “routine” “across the board” doesn’t eliminate humiliation.


  858. blah, blah, and anony, yes, your blind fanaticism against it, plus the shamin tactics, rejection of obvious analogies between your opinions and the case for MPT, make me believe that you have a very high stake against MPT. Like a bastard son. Or at least a son that may be a bastard
    blah, blah

    gig, you discredit yourself with the silly ad homens.

    I suspect you can do better.


  859. oh, God, you’re supposed to TALK to your spouse now?

    Too much communicating will kill a marriage. Save the off-the-wall shit for your girlfriends, or weirdos on the internet.

    Keep it to “did you have a nice day?” and “please pass the salt” at home. ;)


  860. once a men addresses this topic, he falls in one of three cases:

    - faithful wife+legitimate sons == poisoned marriage. It is hard to live like before after such a massive doubt

    - unfaithful wife+legitimate son == wife is a whore, but luckily the son is still his. Wife understands that it’s endgame fo her, no more wild sex with alphas. it is divorce time, then.

    - unfaithful wife + illegitimate son == divorce or miserable life with whore and bastard. She takes bastard plus aimony plus child support.

    for the man, it’s a question of minimizing losses. For the woman, it hurts the most th faithful wife, while the whoe suffers the least.

    MPT kills the problem at birth, to say


  861. @bhetti,
    Your point?

    please reread my comments.


  862. @bhetti,

    now, anony, not to trivialise because I know there’re people with rather… delicate.. personality types — who think the state is coming after them and restricting or questioning their choices when a representative dares to even say ‘boo’ to them — but I have (misplaced?) faith the majority of women can handle it and that the benefits outweight the costs. Still, I think you’re valuing individual freedoms over collective good on principle.

    bhetti, correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to have little regard for privacy, self-determination, presumption of innocence. You are willing to roll over on for “collective good”. What exactly would you stand up for? anything?


  863. oh, God, you’re supposed to TALK to your spouse now?

    Too much communicating will kill a marriage. Save the off-the-wall shit for your girlfriends, or weirdos on the internet.

    As far as marriage-smarts go, OMW is the female Dave from Hawaii!


  864. @bhetti,
    based upon the preferences of a few men handicapped in speaking with their own wives , you are ready to see a “collective good”?


  865. anony: I understand what you’ve put forward as the costs and you seem to regard these as greater than any benefits. I assume you agree with other ‘humiliating’ tests, where you believe the benefits certainly outweigh the costs.


  866. The future of Medical progress will certainly involve a lot of attention paid to individual genetics. Looking at the DNA of both parents will part of that. It is more or less inevitable that peoples genetic heritage will be studied in such a way that non-paternity will stand out like an exploding fireworks stand. It is simply over for women who have something to hide in this regard. May be not right away but years only, not decades.
    All this wimpeering from anony about humiliation etc. will simply have no place in this guy invented new medical environment.. Misleading a child about the identity of the real bio-dad will come to be seen, quite rightly, as an attack on the kids long term medical well-being.


  867. Your innocence is as presumed as it is at the airport or with the syphilis test. Trust but verify. *shrug*

    Your privacy? Not impacted in the least as the procedure does not involve you, unless you define privacy as “the right to fool my husband without being caught”.

    Self-determination? Again, I suppose this means you have the right to fool your husband about his paternity without outside interference.

    These are not very substantial concerns — certainly not when weighed against the genetic suicide of a man who is investing parentally in the children of another man without his prior knowledge or consent.

    Bhetti is right. Most women will get over this, because it will have no impact on them. It will be just one of many tests done out of their sight in the hospital and they won’t even pay any attention to it — unless, of course, it comes back negative. Now THAT may cramp a woman’s self-determination and her privacy in terms of hiding her treachery, but at that point the jig is up.


  868. PA, you are too kind, sir.

    Did you have your baby yet?


  869. omw–

    Save the off-the-wall shit for your girlfriends,

    Just who did you have in mind, Mrs. Scotty?


  870. Daddy, you don’t want to know.


  871. Re: The Duke Case

    There is no doubt that the real criminals in that affair – Mike Nifong. Gottleib, and the Sexual Assualt nurse would have preferred in retrospect to never have done DNA testing on the yeasty nastiness draining out of Crystals Love Canal. The results exonerated the Lax guys, eventually.


  872. @rum,
    All this wimpeering from anony about humiliation etc.

    I’ve been schooled today in “shaming tactics” Rum.
    You’ve discredited yourself by using this tactic. Try again.


  873. @rum,

    and thank nova .


  874. Any day now :)
    The first ones are always late


  875. poor girl. Been there! Our oldest was ten days late.

    (adding a new stretch mark with each passing day, I might add, Son!)


  876. anony–

    a few men handicapped in speaking with their own wives , you are ready to see a “collective good”?

    I repeat. If the 10% figure for misattributed fatherhood births in the Anglosphere is correct, that probably means something like 20-25% of wives giving birth have reason to worry.

    After all, most cheating wives are also having sex with their husbands, so as not to out themselves.

    That’s not “a few”.

    Such is the massive sluttiness of the feminist empowered Western woman, freed from the patriarch under which Western society became knowledgeable, militarily unbeatable, technically proficient, rich, and liberal.

    To much of a good thing is a bad thing. I.e. feminism and leftism generally.

    Roll it back.

    Part way, not all the way.

    Balance.


  877. Bhetti

    Such fragile creatures we are, so empowered and yet so delicate!

    Look at me! Look at me! I’m drowning!

    I’m throwing a fit! Notice!

    Damn, no one takes me seriously.

    It’s as if they see through my ploys.


  878. Anony

    Try again? How about your “pathetic whinning” will have no place in the bright new day of genetic based medicine..


  879. anony:
    – privacy: the genetic material of your child is your right to know as a parent. A man has the right to decide as much as a woman, and she can keep her DNA sample to herself if she wants ‘privacy’.
    – self-determination: There is a point where we cannot be allowed to do what we want, and that is when we hurt badly someone other than ourselves.
    – presumption of innocence: Shall I globally presume all those who have charges brought against them in any crime are innocent, and not bother looking at solid evidence to confirm? Shall I globally presume all those who have not brought charges against them are innocent, and not bother looking at solid evidence to confirm? My friend’s insurance premium went up based on the fact that they were tested for HIV (regardless of the result, which is negative) and I am definitely against the assumption that being tested means you are guilty. I’ve never had sex or gone near a needle or been exposed to my knowledge in any way to HIV but I have been tested. I am not against this. It is part of my collective good duty to ensure all medical students get tested before they do work that involves possibly transferring it and hurting people. I’m not going to protest this and I didn’t feel violated, or presumed guilty.

    What do you mean by ‘what will you stand up for? anything?’. Are you saying that believing in collective good in any way makes me susceptible to tagging along to the nearest banner without discrimination? If so, let’s just ignore that.


  880. @nova,
    Yes, we’ve addresesed the potential benefits/costs/consequences . To me MPT is a loser. Private PT is the better option. I’ll leave it at that.
    Thanks.


  881. PA

    PA

    Any day now :)
    The first ones are always late

    Good for you and yours.

    When it happens, let us know!

    Well, I fully realize we won’t be way up in those priorities, but before TOO long. ‘kay?


  882. I wonder if Roissy is going to hand out a prize for being the 1,000 commenter on a single post.


  883. Doug, thanks dude!
    I got the week off, and newborns mostly sleep, so it could mean lots of free time to chill out on this blog go to the gym and keep up with work remotely.


  884. on May 13, 2009 at 7:34 pm Dave from Hawaii