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Hero

Maybe I should start an ‘Alpha of the Month’ series. Check out this guy:

A man who stopped paying alimony payments to his Clay County ex-wife five years ago and moved to Indonesia — out of the reach of law enforcement — was arrested Friday when he returned to town for a wedding.

The Clay County Sheriff’s Office said David Evans owes his wife $188,000 in alimony payments.

$188,000. Say it to yourself. ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY-EIGHT THOUSAND. For saying “I do”. There is not a woman alive whose blowjob technique merits $188,000 in recompense. The alimony payday is state-sanctioned theft, pure and simple.

I’ve long advocated that should you find yourself on the assramming end of the divorce industrial complex, your best bet is to shift your assets overseas and leave the country. Our hero flipped the bird at our anti-male laws, and for that, I salute him. The fact that he slipped up and stupidly returned to the US five years later for a wedding (irony alert) shouldn’t detract from his admirable heroism in the field of battle. I bestow upon him the greatest honor a man can receive — membership in the Heartiste Society, including the wrought-iron triskelion ring which will grant him access to the chateau.

If alphas have a ‘look’, then this guy has it:

hero

“STEEEEEELLAAAAA!!!!”

At this point, it hardly matters what this guy did or didn’t do in the run-up to his divorce. He may have cheated, lied and stolen, or his wife may have boffed his cousin. The marriage culture has degenerated to such a nadir that these piddling he said-she said details are of little concern in the face of the larger injustice. Absent children and proof of fault, there is no good reason a man should owe his ex-wife ONE RED CENT in the event of a divorce. If she stayed at home becoming best friends with Oprah instead of advancing in a pointless public relations career, that is her body her choice, and the consequences are hers to grapple with. To believe otherwise is to believe that the state should treat women like children, incapable of accounting for their own life choices. And if that’s the standard by which the state will act with regards to women’s post-marital entitlements, then I suggest the state extend its paternalistic logic to other realms in which women operate. A repeal of female voting rights would be a good start.

If a woman initiates divorce from a man and children are involved, unless she can prove fault by her husband she should not even get child support. I can already hear the disingenuous whining. “But the children will suffer! Think of the children!” If the children are suffering she can always stay with her husband, give them to the husband if she decides to ditch him, or put the kids up for adoption. If she wishes to give the kids to the ex-husband, but he’d rather not have his freedom and funtime curtailed by babysitting duties (and I wouldn’t blame him), *and* the divorce was his fault, he can have the option of paying child support in lieu of physically raising them.

Any woman who has a problem with what I wrote has revealed herself to be a leech intent on riding the gravy train. Humans will cling to nothing as tenaciously as a structurally advantageous power position. In America 2009, the emergent marriage and divorce conspiracy is such an obviously raw deal for men that it’s a wonder they still bother. The fear must be strong in many men. If I were the hypothetical leader of this conspiracy, I would target young, religious men for marriage who were too naive to know any better.

There are ways to save marriage, but I can sleep easy at night knowing no one will take up the cause. My lifestyle will remain unchallenged.

To recap: Don’t get married. At least when you break up with a girlfriend you don’t have to provide her with a retirement plan.

758 Responses

  1. Amen.

    As I’ve said brothers, more and more Men are simply going off the grid, and there are many ways to do so. As this case clearly shows though, once you get low, you have to stay low. Can’t go back, don’t even look back, somethin might be gainin’ on ya.

    Alpha of the Month? I like that idea…

    The Obsidian

    Like


  2. “If a woman initiates divorce from a man and children are involved, unless she can prove fault by her husband she should not even get child support. I can already hear the disingenuous whining. “But the children will suffer! Think of the children!””

    I thought women were equal? I thought they could have careers and make as much as a man and that it was OK to be a single mother? Have we forgotten Dan Quayle being raked over the coals for complaining about TV character Murphy Brown becoming a single mom and the example that storyline set?

    If women are equal and perfectly capable of being single mothers by choice, then the children will not suffer if there are no child support payments after a divorce.

    If that’s not the case then, as you point out, we need to re-evaluate the entire legal code when it comes to women.

    Like


  3. on May 15, 2009 at 12:14 pm travelling boho

    That’s nothing, you wanna see a real hero check out H. Beatty Chadwick.

    http://freebeattychadwick.blogspot.com/

    He’s been in locked up for going on 13 YEARS now for refusing to divulge the whereabouts of millions he transferred out of the country before his divorce. This just goes to show the insanity and injustice of a system that allows a man to be deprived of his freedom for over a decade without a trial or conviction.

    Even more galling is that in 2002 he was very close to getting out when a federal judge ordered his release. The order was overturned on appeal in an opinion written by none other than now Supreme Court Justice Sam Alito. You know there is no hope for reform when a judge supposedly as conservative and committed to traditional values as Alito refuses to recognize this patent injustice.

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  4. Here, here. And hear.

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  5. Memorable moments in Streetcar Named Desire:

    Stanley Kowalski: I never met a dame yet that didn’t know if she was good-looking or not without being told, and there’s some of them that give themselves credit for more than they’ve got.

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  6. You have advocated in the past that women shouldn’t concern themselves with higher education or better paying jobs, yet women should do precisely that in order to implement your plan. Alimony is an insurance policy for those with poor paying or non existent jobs that put their eggs in the beauty basket. Not a smart plan in my opinion.

    Unless the real goal is to have the divorce rate take a nose dive.

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  7. You know, the law is actually gender neutral. A wealthy woman will have to give up half her estate and pay alimony just the same.

    Men choose to make more money and marry younger hotties. Young hottie won’t pursue a career if she knows her man is going to bring the bones home for her.

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  8. As a young Catholic man who takes my faith seriously I fully intend on getting married. I’m a virgin by choice in my twenties, and not for lack of opportunities. My parents have done a great job staying together and I hope to raise a large family if that’s God’s will.

    It is not like I can’t see the writing on the wall for modern western culture. Misandric marriage laws coupled with ‘beta’ misogyny foretells a demographic and cultural disaster. I believe one commenter aptly described your blog as picking the lock on the liquor cabinet as the Titanic sinks. Given the past seventy years I’d say its already on its way down.

    I’m going to marry a foreign young lady. Hopefully that way we’ll have a fighting chance together.

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  9. And yet here we have a national organization for lawyers (ALI) lobbying for *increasing* alimony scales across all 50 states. Now with 60% of college graduates being women, what could their logic be for even demanding such an increase? Are women going back to being chattle in large numbers that they urge such legal change?

    Their reason is none other than lining their own pockets no doubt. Nothing keeps the BILLABLE HOURS coming in like two divorcing spouses fighting like rabid dogs over alimony. The woman motivated by greed, and the guy motivated by raw fear. The more they struggle, the more the cash register goes cha-ching for the lawyer (and the judge whose courtroom is always busy and merry):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/30/us/legal-group-urges-states-to-update-their-family-law.html

    This ALI recommendation is a transparent attempt to line their pockets. I am surprised no one called it out at the time (2002). It would be different if the Blogs existed like they do back then.

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  10. Child support should be done by men directly, according to their own sense of what’s right, not ordered by the state and paid to the ex wife. True joint custody should also be the norm, certainly when fathers want it.

    Women should have to earn any support they receive for themselves and their children from men, by staying with them. Or, if they wish to live independently of any man, then they can be financially independent as well.

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  11. Re jail terms: as Obsidian once stated very well, at a certain point a man needs to accept that he is not afraid of anything, particularly a legal system that he considers unjust or illegitimate.

    So at one point, a guy might just say — you wanna throw me inprison? fine. But she’s still not getting any alimony from me.

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  12. Here is the money quote from the ALI report:


    An influential group of lawyers and judges has recommended sweeping changes in family law that would increase alimony and property rights for many divorced women, while extending such rights for the first time to many cohabiting domestic partners, both heterosexual and gay.

    The proposals, from the American Law Institute, seek to update family law to reflect changes in society over the last 30 years. One conclusion, for example, is that if a spouse has committed adultery, it should not affect a judge’s decision about alimony or marital property.

    Sick isn’t it?

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  13. on May 15, 2009 at 12:33 pm Gunslingergregi

    Frreeeeeeeeeeeedddddddddddooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!

    NO marrrrriaaaaaaaagggggggggeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Slaves are made in these ways.

    And this is 21st century it is tooo amazing to believe.

    Or get married but the only way out is a body bag.

    Like


  14. on May 15, 2009 at 12:35 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””Obsidian
    Amen.

    As I’ve said brothers, more and more Men are simply going off the grid, and there are many ways to do so. As this case clearly shows though, once you get low, you have to stay low. Can’t go back, don’t even look back, somethin might be gainin’ on ya.

    Alpha of the Month? I like that idea…

    The Obsidian””””””””””””””””””””

    Bro You can drop off the grid without suffering. Say that a few times. You can drop off the grid without suffering. You just save money invest and don’t lose it all on stocks. He He He
    Make 3 times what da makes and chill.

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  15. Brilliant.

    Some other advice . . . if you do get married, have an asset protection plan in place. Nevada is the best state to form an LLC or FLP and trust to manage your dough. You can also visit the strip clubs. Nevada has more protective case law, more privacy rules in your favor, less regulations, no state taxes, and lower formation costs.

    Have your attorney there be the designated manager and signatory for the entities’ formation, thereby keeping your name off the initial formation paperwork. After official formation, have him resign as general manager the next day, after which you fund the entities following your receipt of the paperwork of formation and his resignation.

    At this point, you officially become a ghost.

    Start putting your assets in the LLC or FLP and this will protect them when your ex-wife starts trying to steal them. Also, put your IRA, 401K or retirement plan into Pension Limited Partnership in Nevada, and it’s safe up to 500K. Depending on state law, file a declaration of homestead.

    Have the business you own or your employer hire and pay your trust (which you control) for your services, have the trust pay you a nominal salary and you thereby lower your salary which the judge looks at when it comes time for the judge to decide your alimony and child support payments. Build equity and the trust and transfer over to the FLP that handles your liquid assets.

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  16. Sick isn’t it?

    Marriage is dead in this country. Only a fool would consider it.

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  17. feministx

    You know, the law is actually gender neutral. A wealthy woman will have to give up half her estate and pay alimony just the same.

    No it is not.

    First of all women virtually always get child custody. With that comes huge transfer payments from her ex husband that will amount to about 40-45% of his after tax income if he’s a professional level earning man. As I illustrated a week or so ago to Tood, if both spouses earned the same 100K before tax and child support=alimony transfer payments, that would result in her getting something like $115 after tax and him $55k.

    Gender neutral my ass.

    Further, it’s hardly gender neutral to ignore the fact that women by and large continue to want to marry up (in status and income), and men to marry younger and pretty and down some (or a lot) is fine.

    All of that is fine. What isn’t fine is the co-ercise power of the state in divorce.

    Men still essentially can’t believe, and are utterly shocked, that a wife can massively cheat, and still kick him out of the house he entirely paid for and still is, take more than half his money including all her legal expenses and maintenance during the pendency of the divorce, and tax him hugely for two decades into the future.

    If men commit adultery their wives can economically punish them for it enormously. And often do.

    If women commit adultery they can STILL economically punish their ex husband for their own transgressions enormously, which they’re very likely to do, since when women cheat and fall in love with a lover, unlike men they usually stop having any interest in sex with their husband and THEMSELVES want to leave the relationship.

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  18. You should start an “Alpha of the Month” series. People need examples of alphaness to emulate, not just beta sinkholes to avoid.

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  19. Being a man sure is hard. Don’t even get me started on how hard it is for white people, with all that PC bullshit.

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  20. Bravo – all true. The most important point: structurally advantageous power position. It’s pretty clear the current divorce laws date to a period when women earned much less and had far fewer professional options, which is certainly not the case today. On average, with union manufacturing jobs vanishing, women are on track to earn *more* on average than men, across the whole economy. But the situation continues to favor women wrt alimony, child custody, and child support.

    Interesting point about the divorce bar lobbying for alimony increases – I hadn’t seen that. Good analysis.

    Courts are not as much to blame as legislatures – to see any meaningful change, you’d have to get state legislatures and Congress to act to adopt a more balanced view of male and female rights post-divorce, based on real data. But that goes so strongly agaist the grain of the reigning ideology that it’s not likely to happen. Certainly not in the Pelosi/Obama era ….

    But If only one state set up a more male-friendly regime (Nevada? Florida? Texas?), might it have a positive, snowball effect, as men started to initiate their proceedings there and the nation took note of the harmess and fair decisions?

    There would have to be an organized lobby, a constituency, pushing for it, and there’s no signs at all of a male equivalent to NOW and all the other heavily funded, aggressive, biased feminist lobby groups and think tanks that have been successfully pushing that agenda for decades. Very depressing to think about it this way …

    Also: Indonesia? xsplat, is that you?

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  21. “Further, it’s hardly gender neutral to ignore the fact that women by and large continue to want to marry up (in status and income), and men to marry younger and pretty and down some (or a lot) is fine.”

    I feel sad for men, actually. Their biology makes them have such stupid sexual desires. Women want wealth, which accumulates and increases, intelligence and status which either stays the same or increases with career advancement. Men on the other hand want what will depreciate- prettiness, youth and a slender body. If men had sense, they’d game a rich girl and marry for wealth and status.

    But while I admit that child custody is awarded on an unfair basis, if there are no children involved, the law is fair. Marriage is an agreement to enter a state of communal ownership with another person. The law divides the estate by half and awards alimony when half the estate needs a larger income to maintain. It’s not a sexist law.

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  22. a random alpha is cool, but start a whole “alpha of the month” series is pretty gay. Anyway, David Evans, I salute you.

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  23. It is really my contention that the justice system has it in the worst for white males. Women get all the custody rights, special privileges, and they get money for their failure to function in a marriage. I say kudos to this guy for sticking it to this bitch and America’s skewed idea of justice.

    No woman is worth that much money.

    Totally in agreement about repealing their right to vote, and I think we need to apply the same to minorities as well. Down with special privileges!

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  24. Just what does a woman promise to a man in an American marriage these days, anyway?

    Does she promise him that she’s have sex with him? Hell no. (The very thought of that brings crys of rape to American feminist and really now mainstream “post feminist” American female lips, thank you the likes of feministx, the enemy of men.)

    Does she in these equal female earning power times and heavy presence of women in all levels in the workforce promise to bear equally with him the financial burdens of family life, as their respective work fortunes and successes should pan out? Hell no. All decisions as to whether or not she should work, and how much, or whether it should be in an income maximizing fashion as opposed to a status or “enrichment” and “job satisfaction” maximizing one instead are acccording to our feminist influenced culture supposed to be entirely up to her. Anything other than agreeing support from her husband will be viewed as “controlling” and all around odious.

    Does she really promise to stay with him through sickness or if he becomes notably poorer? Hell no. Divorce goes way up when a man loses his job and doesn’t get a comparable or better one soon, but doesn’t at all when the wife loses hers, or simply decides she’d rather not work, or work much, any more.

    Does she automatically or by custom promise to give him kids? Certainly not. Any such assumption reeks of the patriarchy and is thoroughly out. Instead again it’s entirely a matter of what will make her happiest. By the same token, woe be to an American husband who fails to agree to have children when his wife wants them. That would be unspeakably selfish of him. Of course she can just have them anyway, with him having no say so whatsoever, and the support of the sisterhood — and the law should he decide to divorce her. He’ll have to pay for her kids that he didn’t want anyway.

    All in all, what a DEAL marriage has become!!!

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  25. This guy really blew it by coming back to the US.

    People on the run rarely get caught; unless they return home.

    Tip of the day:

    Keep an escape route ready and if you ever use it, don’t come back.

    Then again, why would you return to the US?

    – MPM

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  26. feministrix, the dyke:

    “A wealthy woman will have to give up half her estate and pay alimony just the same.”

    —show me a woman who is wealthy and I’ll show you a cunt who stole it from a man in divorce proceedings.

    women don’t make shit; they are parasites on the wealth and creations of man. Were it not for biological necessity, man would have thrown your skanky asses to the wolves long ago.

    Islam’s got it right on that account.

    Await the realistic sex bots and artificial wombs, gentlemen. And I say this as a man who has never thought robot could replace flesh. I hope they damn well do.

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  27. Feministx

    The law divides the estate by half and awards alimony when half the estate needs a larger income to maintain. It’s not a sexist law.

    She can just sell her half to live off of until she gets a job. If she already gets half a man’s stuff, there’s no reason he should have to work to keep her comfortable. They are essentially starting off on the same footing.

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  28. feministx

    The enemy of men.

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  29. feministx–

    The law divides the estate by half

    Why on earth would I want to subject myself to that, when I earned or otherwise cleaverly created nearly all of it through my awesomeness, and she’s no longer doing it for me, and we’re splitting.

    Hey, I’m a generous guy and unless she’s been heinous, sure, something nice, but half. You’re kidding right?

    No way sister. Not a chance. Not from this cat.

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  30. “She can just sell her half to live off of until she gets a job. If she already gets half a man’s stuff, there’s no reason he should have to work to keep her comfortable. They are essentially starting off on the same footing.”

    The lower income earner often will get a house while the other partner gets other assets such as a retirement fund or investments. But the lower income earner still isn’t able to immediately pay the mortgage on the house because they have been out of the workforce for so long, so alimony gives them time to be able to either earn enough to keep the house or be forced to sell it.

    It is hard for a person who has been out of the workforce to suddenly have to pay insurances and a mortgage on assets their career cannot support.

    Think of a case where a woman raises children as a housewife and then the minute they turn 18, he leaves for a younger woman. She would be forced to sell her house and car and return to a low income living without alimony. This is unfair because the couple would have made a joint decision about her forgoing a career in order to stay home and raise the children.

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  31. @RJS – good info on Nevada. Not exactly what I was posting about, but a good start on the assets front. Could you post a link with more details?

    @FemX – good point, actually, about male desire being financially perverse and female desire financially savvy – based on hardwiring 10,000 years ago in the savannahs of Africa. Beauty is a rapidly depreciating asset, so a rent is better than a buy. the importance of the “hindbrains” is discussed here a lot wrt attraction, game, etc. but the financial implications are out of whack with 21st-c. realities. The courts should not back the hindbrains here.

    The “communal property” argument is based on sustaining a lifestyle, an income, that one party, always the woman, nas “become accustomed to” and needs to “sustain” without necessarily being able or willing to work to earn that income. That’s where the bias lies in the alimony decisions. If a woman initiates divorce without cause, then it should be clear that she is voluntarily losing acccess to that lifestyle that the husband has provided. And if she was unfaithful, even more so.

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  32. “Marriage is an agreement to enter a state of communal ownership with another person.”

    Having legally eliminated everything that actually makes a marriage a marriage, it has deteriorated into meaninglessness.

    Anyone else find it funny that in order to be a “strong, independent women”, women need and demand subsidies (alimony, government handouts, etc) which come overwhelmingly from milking men?

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  33. on May 15, 2009 at 1:16 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””””””””””It is hard for a person who has been out of the workforce to suddenly have to pay insurances and a mortgage on assets their career cannot support. “”””””””””””””””””

    Get a house you can fucking afford. Every American I know who has an american wife has a 250k house that when they go home they can barely afford. It is retarded.

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  34. ASDF

    If she already gets half a man’s stuff

    Do not agree to let her have half your stuff. There’s not fair about that when it’s you that’s earned it and she’s lived a much easier life on your toil and brainy awesomeness.

    Letting her have half your stuff only makes some kind of sense when it doesn’t amount to diddly squat. Not otherwise.

    Note, she get’s half is a new feminist invention, particularly as applied to big estates. The old rule was that she should be comfortable — (in the case of well off men) — and even then that was only when he was the one “at fault”. I.e. he wanted out of the marriage or was caught cheating.

    BTW, I don’t think that male cheating should constitute fault. Male fault she more be sexual abandonment of his wife, provided she’s kept herself attractive including in how she acts. It’s not fault to not want to boink a whale or a harridan.

    Or a lesbian pretending to be bi, like feministx.

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  35. Think of a case where a woman raises children as a housewife and then the minute they turn 18, he leaves for a younger woman. She would be forced to sell her house and car and return to a low income living without alimony. This is unfair because the couple would have made a joint decision about her forgoing a career in order to stay home and raise the children.

    This is where no-fault is the problem.

    If you turn the facts around on that slightly and imagine that the woman leaves for another man as soon as the kids turn 18, why on earth should she get the windfall of alimony? That makes no sense.

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  36. Alimony (which few women today get in appreciable form) is basically a bribe to have women act against their own interest. If you know that you can be dumped at any time, and thrown out on the street with no way to protect yourself, who would stay at home with the kids, or slow down on their career, or advance their spouses career at the expense of their own? It would make more sense to work, and most women have correctly surmised this, and work now. However alimony is more of an insurance policy, to make sure that the spouse that you sacrificed for, and built from the ground up, doesn’t decide they need an upgrade, and dump your ass, with nary a penny to show for it. But, as stated before, alimony is own is way out in most states, and is not routinely granted anymore, even though it still seems to be the big bogeyman of “men’s rights” type people everywhere. However if you made an agreement to share your life, assets, and take care of any children resulting from the union of you and your spouse (which is what marriage is), then it is hard to complain when that ends being what you do.

    PS When men sue for custody, they tend to win 45-60% of the time according to most estimates. However, most men are uninterested in having sole physical custody of the kids.

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  37. on May 15, 2009 at 1:19 pm Gunslingergregi

    My woman owned her own house before I met her. No mortgage. This is the type of shit american men need to require from there woman. With her own work and own savings she had a house built.

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  38. “I feel sad for men, actually. Their biology makes them have such stupid sexual desires. Women want wealth, which accumulates and increases, intelligence and status which either stays the same or increases with career advancement. Men on the other hand want what will depreciate- prettiness, youth and a slender body. If men had sense, they’d game a rich girl and marry for wealth and status.”

    This is SO idiotic it’s hard to believe it’s serious. You might as well berate dogs as stupid for wanting to play fetch or flamencos for “choosing” to be such awful hue of pink. Human sexual desires, an instrument of biological reproduction, is as natural as the desire to eat (an instrument of staying alive). Young and pretty are indicators of reproductive health.

    You’ve lost all credibility. Not that you had any in this space, but now you cant even maintain the illusion of intelligence.

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  39. Alimony is obscene.

    Alimony in this age of equal female economic opportunity is absolutely obscene.

    Just completely obscene.

    Rule it out entirely in the prenup.

    If she needs to for awhile, let her live off a hunk of change in the property settlement.

    But get the idea of half completely out of your mind.

    Instead divide in proportion to earnings, and then only the increase post marriage (the marital property), not what you brought into it. On top of that some hunk of change for being a mother, if she is.

    You can always be more generous voluntarily if the facts of the breakup merit that.

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  40. Think of a case where a woman raises children as a housewife and then the minute they turn 18, he leaves for a younger woman. She would be forced to sell her house and car and return to a low income living without alimony. This is unfair because the couple would have made a joint decision about her forgoing a career in order to stay home and raise the children.

    This is fair because for years she had every financial need taken care of by another human being. Why should that human being owe her anything more? She chose to forgo a career. Her body, her choice.

    Women cannot have it both ways. If you girls want a society where you have equal careers, then you suffer the consequences when you fail to pursue a career. Period. If you want alimony in a divorce, then your career is your husband, family, and home, and you stay in that home and do the best you can with your career as a wife and mother to earn your life which is completely free of financial obligation or worry.

    Make your choice.

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  41. Many people commenting here see marriage as the problem. Marriage is not the problem – divorce is the problem. Divorce often affects women more so financially than it does men, hence the need for alimony. What will the woman do, who is most likely left with the children and the house to pay / care for, when her husband is gone? Numerous studies have shown that divorce more negatively impacts a woman than a man, particularly financially (single mothers are the poorest sectors of society, and not only monetarily).

    I have sympathy for men in divorce, too – this leaves them virtually without a home / social haven. But the real loser is the woman, who is often left with responsibility for children and a certain stigma that men may have an easier time to escape.

    The solution is to have more stable marriages, a society that values marriage as a structured part of a well-functioning society. Marriage is not the enemy.

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  42. A few thoughts.

    Pre nup agreements.
    Own all property in land trusts.
    Setup a wyoming corp. with a nominee and deed everything else into it.

    Do this BEFORE you marry.

    The rest is morals. If one partner sacrificed for you such that that partner couldn’t make a living of their own, and was dependent upon you, while you were the bread winner, than if neither partner was a party in adultery, it is fair and just and beautiful and a mark of a man’s benevolence generosity and virtue to leave his wife with some mutually agreed upon financial support for some time until she gets to her feet, or in the case of a stay at home dad, the wife should leave the husband something.

    Hence a pre-nup that contains this stipulation.
    People should have some basic fairness and generosity, in defiance of the cold soul killing nature of our society today.

    If, if, the man is the guilty party in adultery, this is one matter. The man should pay. Within reason. If he broke the terms of the marriage contract. He should not be drained like a spigot and such support should be limited in term and scope.

    If a wife cheats and this is the cause of the divorce she should get nothing. Period. Nada.

    If she cuckolded him resulting in a bastard child he mistook for his own, SHE should have to PAY HIM a fair and just sum. A sort of psychological wergeld for the emotional murder she subjected him to.

    This is fair, and just, and anyone who disagrees has a moral compass that is seriously skewed. Cheating is a breech of contract, a breech of the terms of the marriage partnership. And it is a partnership, and contractual agreement, all romantic b.s. put aside.

    We have been conditioned to live in a fairy tale world, the results of which are ugly. Humanity does not live by the law of the jungle in civilization, we rise above the jungle, but we cannot forget the basic rock bottom terms of human nature.

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  43. “Young and pretty are indicators of reproductive health.

    Youth is an indication of repro health. Prettiness is not. Given the small family size people want and the possibility for fertility treatment, prettiness has zero value outside itself.

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  44. Anonymous–

    PS When men sue for custody, they tend to win 45-60% of the time according to most estimates.

    You’re an intentionally misleading aka LYING SACK OF SHIITE.

    Men only sue for custody in the great majority of cases when they have a real shot at winning it. That essentially requires taht the wife be a hard drugs addict, an actual whore, have a long history of having actually and provably severely mistreated the children (as opposed to make up female charges without evidence which are often believed). Even in these kinds of cases men often lose.

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  45. “Alimony (which few women today get in appreciable form) is basically a bribe to have women act against their own interest. If you know that you can be dumped at any time, and thrown out on the street with no way to protect yourself, who would stay at home with the kids, or slow down on their career, or advance their spouses career at the expense of their own? It would make more sense to work, and most women have correctly surmised this, and work now. However alimony is more of an insurance policy, to make sure that the spouse that you sacrificed for, and built from the ground up, doesn’t decide they need an upgrade, and dump your ass, with nary a penny to show for it. But, as stated before, alimony is own is way out in most states, and is not routinely granted anymore, even though it still seems to be the big bogeyman of “men’s rights” type people everywhere. However if you made an agreement to share your life, assets, and take care of any children resulting from the union of you and your spouse (which is what marriage is), then it is hard to complain when that ends being what you do.

    PS When men sue for custody, they tend to win 45-60% of the time according to most estimates. However, most men are uninterested in having sole physical custody of the kids.”

    Thank you. This is correct. Alimony is not awarded in most states. Some 4% of children are fathered by a man other than the man who thinks he is the father. Men do not usually want custody of the children they father. When they do, high earning women often end up paying more in divorce settlements than men would in order to prevent the man from getting full custody. Men like K-fed do sue for custody simply in order to get money even when they are not really interested in raising the children (granted he happens to be a better parent than Brit).

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  46. I would target young, religious men for marriage who were too naive to know any better.

    Whatever you say about young, naive, religious men, they do tend to make demands on their women, sometimes quite stringent demands. Many of them demand that their future wives be virgins before marriage. (See here for advice on that topic.😉 ) Needless to say that not many feminists are likely to take that up. Likewise Jonathan Jones, Catholic blogger and sometime commenter here, made a comment on my blog about how important it was that his future wife agree with him on birth control issues. Again, not likely to attract feminist conspirators. I think it was sociologist Rodney Stark who has noted that more demanding religions are those that provide the most utility. They weed out the free riders.

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  47. This is SO idiotic it’s hard to believe it’s serious. You might as well berate dogs as stupid for wanting to play fetch or flamencos for “choosing” to be such awful hue of pink. Human sexual desires, an instrument of biological reproduction, is as natural as the desire to eat (an instrument of staying alive).

    I see what she is saying. So many on this very blog wring their hands or lambast the typical female desire for the strong, powerful, rich, etc. The female desire for these things is often blamed for the downfall of society. Yet, male desire is any better. The male favoritism for the pretty isn’t much more virtuous or better for society then female preference for the dominant. Both sexes tend to choose the idiotic on superficial qualities, which is what happens when either sex is allowed to make mate choices less constrained by families or society.

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  48. I feel sad for men, actually. Their biology makes them have such stupid sexual desires. Women want wealth, which accumulates and increases, intelligence and status which either stays the same or increases with career advancement. Men on the other hand want what will depreciate- prettiness, youth and a slender body.

    The fundamental error here is the view that men and women are biologically the same and thus should want the same things. The male produces a lot of seed, and his desire to spread his seed as widely as possible is not stupid but eminently logical and biologically advantageous. If your only investment in any given child is one squirt of goo, you don’t have to care too much about the intelligence of any given female you squirt it into. You want to impregnate as many young women as possible rather than limiting yourself to selected “intelligent” and “high status” women. Women, on the other hand, have to care a great deal who they allow to squirt into them, because their biological investment in the child is much larger than the male’s investment, and thus they have to prefer wealth and status.

    If a man could only produce a very small amount of seed in a lifetime, he’d care a lot more about where he put it.

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  49. DT-
    I agree with you that a woman does make a choice to stay at home and care for her children – but this choice is not independent. A woman has more pressure to opt out of her career to care for her household. When children come into the picture, it is not the man who will often make the career sacrifice, but the woman.

    She will feel this pressure not only from her husband, but from her own work superiors and colleagues, and maybe even certain family members.

    It is not an independent choice; it is a societally and biologicaly influenced decision, and almost a necessity, to sacrifice some part (or maybe even all) of her career or even educational aspirations.

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  50. “Think of a case where a woman raises children as a housewife and then the minute they turn 18, he leaves for a younger woman.”

    A rarity.

    “She would be forced to sell her house and car and return to a low income living without alimony. This is unfair because the couple would have made a joint decision about her forgoing a career in order to stay home and raise the children.”

    Things to notice:

    Alimony (getting the man’s assets AFTER they are no longer married) is touted as “fair”. But she also wrote that “[m]arriage is an agreement to enter a state of communal ownership with another person”. Yet alimony is a state of communal ownership AFTER the marriage is over.

    You will see in her posts that when it comes to getting more than the woman contributed, it is “fair” because it was communal ownership and whether or not she’s a skank whore has nothing to do with it: moral factors do not apply. But when it comes time to keep milking the man for his money, suddenly moral factors start popping up all over the place: it’s not fair that she doesn’t get even more than half (through alimony) because he is a rat bastard. She even rolls with the old and rarely ever true stereotype of leaving her for a younger woman.

    “My choice, your responsibility”: “they” decided she would stay at home, so he is responsible for what she decides to do. Typical privilege princess bullshit.

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  51. dreamer

    Marriage is not the enemy.

    Yes it is.

    Maybe marriage in the abstract is not, or an historical memory of marriage might not be, or marriage in some other countries or cultures. Even marriage within our own, if to someone is certain subcultures.

    Marriage as feminists have legally wrought it in America today, and as our heavily feminist influenced culture has taught American women to act within marriage, and in leaving marriage, yes, that marriage,

    the marriage we actually have today in America,

    is the enemy.

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  52. “If you turn the facts around on that slightly and imagine that the woman leaves for another man as soon as the kids turn 18, why on earth should she get the windfall of alimony? That makes no sense.”

    It’s a massive waste of legal resources to make new arrangements for each couple. The law is uniform and non sexist. The estate gets divided by two- doesn’t matter who earned it or how big or small it is.

    As for alimony, I wouldn’t really care if it disappeared though I do know some women who deserved it because their husbands left after the children were 18.

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  53. I feel sad for men, actually. Their biology makes them have such stupid sexual desires.

    You could with as much justice say that women are “stupid” for desiring the very small number of high-status, high-wealth, and high-intelligence men that only very few women can actually obtain unless some form of polygamy prevails.

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  54. “The fundamental error here is the view that men and women are biologically the same and thus should want the same things. The male produces a lot of seed, and his desire to spread his seed as widely as possible is not stupid but eminently logical and biologically advantageous. If your only investment in any given child is one squirt of goo, you don’t have to care too much about the intelligence of any given female you squirt it into. You want to impregnate as many young women as possible rather than limiting yourself to selected “intelligent” and “high status” women. Women, on the other hand, have to care a great deal who they allow to squirt into them, because their biological investment in the child is much larger than the male’s investment, and thus they have to prefer wealth and status.”

    This is all out the window now because of 99% effective birth control. Men in modern society have a real opportunity to father only a few children. Thus, their biological preferences are working against them in the present day context.

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  55. “You could with as much justice say that women are “stupid” for desiring the very small number of high-status, high-wealth, and high-intelligence men that only very few women can actually obtain unless some form of polygamy prevails.”

    Women are not stupid for wanting to marry up. Women are stupid for wanting alphas and not betas.

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  56. “built from the ground up”? Really? That’s your female view of what a woman does in a marriage – *she* is the source of any of her husband’s wealth, success, happiness? Not any virue, talent, or hard work of his own? Gaze at that for a while, folks.

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  57. Think of a case where a woman raises children as a housewife and then the minute they turn 18, he leaves for a younger woman..

    Nova is right. This is only a problem with no fault divorce.

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  58. Men:

    You can protect yourself from almony by getting a prenup.

    Contra to what feminstx says, there is a large tendency on the part of many states to award alimony if a man isn’t already paying his ex wife child support=alimony, and sometimes even if he is — when there’s a big differential in their incomes, or she isn’t working at all (even though she could be).

    So protect yourself.

    But really, don’t marry unless you want kids. Then insist on a prenup that rules out alimony and DOES NOT divide assets equally. Don’t make divorcing you easy or inexpensive for her. When families with young children get divorced, it’s nearly always at the instigation of the wife.

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  59. Divorce often affects women more so financially than it does men, hence the need for alimony.

    If a woman has an equal career then it will not affect her more. If she chose to sit and watch Opera, then the impact on her is nobody’s fault but her own. She was supported for how long? Where can I find a sugar momma to pay for me to sit and watch TV all day, then later claim she owes me more money after supporting my fattening ass for years?

    What will the woman do, who is most likely left with the children and the house to pay / care for, when her husband is gone?

    I love this…”left with the house”. The poor baby, left with a home that she did not earn. The horrors!

    The children are simple. Split custody 50/50. No child support goes either way since they each have equal time/costs.

    The solution is to have more stable marriages, a society that values marriage as a structured part of a well-functioning society. Marriage is not the enemy.

    You will never, ever have more stable marriages when the law gives the woman incentives to divorce on a whim, when divorce is a “no fault” deal that rapes the man financially. And our society will not honor marriage so long as men know it’s a raw deal and women feel entitled to do whatever they please in the world, consequences be damned.

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  60. Our divorce laws are wrecking our birthrate, by making marriage such a risky proposition for men. Men are now delaying marriage and fatherhood, leading to blue state birthrates of 1.5 children per female or thereabouts.

    We are going to have too many old people in 30 years, and not enough young workers entering the work force. So we have a choice, either reform these insane divorce laws, or to basically ‘replace’ ourselves as humanity with massive immigration. I think reforming the divorce laws would be a much more prudent choice. Men are not going to be willing to father children in enough numbers (and young enough) in the present arrangement.

    What women dont realize is that men these days GREW UP under the current system. They seen their dads struggle while paying mom. They dont want to see themselves beholden to the same system, so they pump and dump for sexual pleasure and delay marriage to their late thirties and forties, when they only have time to have one kid. This will have massive economic consequences someday, as the truly productive and innovative aren’t having enough children. The people who advocated for these laws knew exactly where they would lead us……..

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  61. Dreamer says:
    “Many people commenting here see marriage as the problem. Marriage is not the problem – divorce is the problem. Divorce often affects women more so financially than it does men, hence the need for alimony.”

    Wrong. That claim women’s standard of living drops after a divorce while men’s go up was based on lies by a woman named Lenore Weitzman. She made up some bogus data, knowing it is not permitted in our society for men to call women liars, so she happily lied. It is not that there were errors in her study. There was no study at all.

    After her study was accepted by virtually every attorney and judge in the US, someone attempted to duplicate it and it simply was not true. When they asked for her data she whined the grad student who processed her numbers lost them. Yes Lenore, the dog DID eat your homework. Har har.

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  62. “What women dont realize is that men these days GREW UP under the current system. They seen their dads struggle while paying mom. ”

    Where do you think us women grew up? Jupiter?

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  63. This is all out the window now because of 99% effective birth control. Men in modern society have a real opportunity to father only a few children. Thus, their biological preferences are working against them in the present day context.

    Um, men’s desires were formed before such birth control existed. It is thus wrong to term those desires “stupid” when you actually mean “inappropriate to modern conditions”.

    In any event, modern conditions are now, ironically, sending us back towards the primitive condition of primate tribes, in which a small number of males (the alphas) monopolize the females and the rest of the males (betas) get shut out. If a large number of women are chasing a small number of high-status males, then the alpha’s preference for youth and beauty does not “work against him” at all.

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  64. on May 15, 2009 at 1:45 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””””””””Thursday
    Think of a case where a woman raises children as a housewife and then the minute they turn 18, he leaves for a younger woman..

    Nova is right. This is only a problem with no fault divorce.”””””””””””””””””””

    If she didn’t in 18 years create anything with her man in the marriage then she deserves nothing of his future money. She is worthless.

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  65. “Divorce often affects women more so financially than it does men, hence the need for alimony.

    If a woman has an equal career then it will not affect her more. If she chose to sit and watch Opera, then the impact on her is nobody’s fault but her own. She was supported for how long? Where can I find a sugar momma to pay for me to sit and watch TV all day, then later claim she owes me more money after supporting my fattening ass for years?

    What will the woman do, who is most likely left with the children and the house to pay / care for, when her husband is gone?

    I love this…”left with the house”. The poor baby, left with a home that she did not earn. The horrors!

    The children are simple. Split custody 50/50. No child support goes either way since they each have equal time/costs.

    The solution is to have more stable marriages, a society that values marriage as a structured part of a well-functioning society. Marriage is not the enemy.

    You will never, ever have more stable marriages when the law gives the woman incentives to divorce on a whim, when divorce is a “no fault” deal that rapes the man financially. And our society will not honor marriage so long as men know it’s a raw deal and women feel entitled to do whatever they please in the world, consequences be damned.”

    Technically, your proposal is feminist. Though I personally believe in no fault divorce- court can’t sift through each person’s life and make up new rules for each couple. We’re already wasting enough tax money on other crap.

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  66. dreamer–

    I agree with you that a woman does make a choice to stay at home and care for her children – but this choice is not independent.

    Once the youngest of generally two children is in school or pre school, if the woman doesn’t return to work she’s really leading a pretty lazy and cushy life. So much so that many women who don’t need to work because their husband is so successful, go into volunteer work that becomes pretty much full time and high powered. Like my mother did. Or get an advanced degree. Well, she did that too.

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  67. Women are not stupid for wanting to marry up. Women are stupid for wanting alphas and not betas.

    You don’t even notice the contradiction here? “Marrying up” means she wants an alpha (or as much of an alpha as she can possibly get).

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  68. on May 15, 2009 at 1:48 pm Gunslingergregi

    Just like me when I finish 5 years of straight 12 hour days almost 7 days a week and I don’t save any money. I walk away with nothing. Same with a marriage.

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  69. Pupu *feels* there is something terribly wrong about calling this guy a “hero,” and about the argument that men should be freed from the obligation to pay child support if their wives initiate a no-fault divorce.

    Perhaps, this terrible feeling comes from a sting by her inner leech. Pupu does not know whether she should feel bad about herself or about the situations presented in this post.

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  70. Youth only indicates fertility. Prettiness (facial symmetry; healthy hair) indicates health, and good genes–excellent and logical criteria for mate selection.

    Merely being youthful doesnt cut it. I wouldnt want to reproduce with an 18 year old, fertile hunchback with a skin condition, family history of heart disease, and pre-disposition to diabetes.

    The reality of genetic determinism (to which it appears you are in denial) is applicable for men as well. I dont know why you make it a feminist issue. Men who arent smart or physically gifted are in the same boat as ugly fat chicks.

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  71. dreamer–

    Divorce often affects women more so financially than it does men, hence the need for alimony.

    Your assumption here, drawn from feminism, is revolting.

    Why on earth do you assume that a woman who is no longer acting as a wife to a highly successful man, deserves to ever more, or for a hell of a long time afterwards, live equally as plushly as when she did?

    Especially since in 70% of cases it’s women who initiate divorce, often for reasons of general dissatisfaction, or her no longer feeling it, etc. It’s overwhelmingly women who now initiate divorce when there are young children in the home.

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  72. During the Marriage: “Honey dearest, I hate my job, and I don’t earn much anyway. Can I quit, and be a stay at home mom? Oh please, oh please.”

    During the Divorce: “Your Honor, my client gave up her career, gave up her unstoppable climb up the corporate ladder, so that this man would have a family. We demand lifetime alimony!”

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  73. If she didn’t in 18 years create anything with her man in the marriage then she deserves nothing of his future money. She is worthless.

    She raised his kids. It’s called the division of labour and it is the reason for marriage.

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  74. Though I personally believe in no fault divorce- court can’t sift through each person’s life and make up new rules for each couple. We’re already wasting enough tax money on other crap.

    Why would there be new rules? The rules are very basic. Four reasons to end marriage: adultery, addiction, abandonment, abuse. Every other court case the court sifts through the facts and renders a judgment. It is insane that we are not willing to do this in cases impacting the most critical element of someone’s life. Sifting through facts and rendering judgments are what courts are meant to do, after all.

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  75. puma80

    So true.

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  76. @pupu – it was alimony, not child support. No kids involved, so your inner leech should be ashamed.

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  77. on May 15, 2009 at 1:57 pm Gunslingergregi

    She needs to get off her ass thursday and learn how to divide labor. Maybe Maybe when they are infants. Wait fuck no. She needs to be running some shit.

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  78. doug1 – I am not saying whether or not a woman deserves to live one way or another following a divorce. I am saying that in most cases, she will have care of the children, and she will need the support of the husband to do so. It has nothing to do with maintaining a particular lifestyle, rather than being able to support her own children. I am not speaking of gold-digging women or even the upper classes. I am speaking of middle, working, and lower class women who need the support of the ex-husband, who most likely, will have less and less to do with the children after the divorce (the lower in station the family, the more likely the father is to be present afterward).

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  79. Feministx,

    What is YOUR solution to our low-birthrate dilemma amongst the freethinking?

    Have any ideas?

    Like


  80. “Merely being youthful doesnt cut it. I wouldnt want to reproduce with an 18 year old, fertile hunchback with a skin condition, family history of heart disease, and pre-disposition to diabetes.”

    You’re completely wrong. Men want to believe that their obsession with female attractiveness has some reproductive value. Not anymore.

    A woman can be gorgeous and have a genetic heart condition (my cholesterol is 248- no man cares or asks). A bad skin condition would make a girl very ugly but would not affect her overall health and reproductive capacity.

    What one needs in order to get ahead in our society is a good IQ and a good work ethic. Looks do not produce children with those attributes.

    What one needs in order to proliferate your genes in our society is a partner with no ability to plan ahead and a need to depend on welfare.

    Female prettiness really has no value outside itself. It does not denote any real sort of health advantage in the woman or in her offspring.

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  81. I am saying that in most cases, she will have care of the children, and she will need the support of the husband to do so. It has nothing to do with maintaining a particular lifestyle, rather than being able to support her own children.

    This should apply only if the divorce is the fault of the man. In the no-fault context, a woman can just up and leave and collect a check — which is patently unfair.

    Also please remember that the getting of a check doesn’t really relate to her need for support. If a woman moves in with someone else, and he is de facto supporting the kids, too, there is no reduction in child support. Even if she re-marries, there is no reduction in child support based on whether she “needs” it unless her new husband adopts the kids.

    So no, child support is really about a wealth transfer mostly from ex-husbands to ex-wives, regardless of actual need.

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  82. Maurice:

    “If a woman initiates divorce from a man and children are involved, unless she can prove fault by her husband she should not even get child support. I can already hear the disingenuous whining. “But the children will suffer! Think of the children!” If the children are suffering she can always stay with her husband, give them to the husband if she decides to ditch him, or put the kids up for adoption. If she wishes to give the kids to the ex-husband, but he’d rather not have his freedom and funtime curtailed by babysitting duties (and I wouldn’t blame him), *and* the divorce was his fault, he can have the option of paying child support in lieu of physically raising them.”

    How about this paragraph?

    Like


  83. @puma80 – right on.

    @FemX – really? groan. it’s not my style to flame or post ad hominem (or ad feminem) attacks, so I’ll leave your pointless insult alone.

    @nova – courts do get into the details of each individual case, but then apply fairly inflexuble standards mandated by law. It’s the legislatures that need to change things, not the courts.

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  84. Men

    stop leaning over backs to be fair, oh so fair, to women in all circumstances no matter what, you take the fall and the burden if things don’t work out as expected.

    End that noise.

    Seize the advantage. Keep the power.

    THEN be kind and generous, at your discretion.

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  85. “court can’t sift through each person’s life and make up new rules for each couple. We’re already wasting enough tax money on other crap.”

    So, eliminate government marriage, child support payments, etc.

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  86. @pupu – right, but I was referring about the actual guy in jail, not the subsequent info in the post.

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  87. courts do get into the details of each individual case, but then apply fairly inflexuble standards mandated by law. It’s the legislatures that need to change things, not the courts.

    Maurice — Dunno. Most statutes give the courts the leeway to render decisions in the best interests of the children. That throws it squarely back in the courts’ lap, and that standard is so wide you could drive an entire armored division through it.

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  88. Maurice:

    As far as alimony goes, Pupu has little to say. The feeling of objection was about calling the guy a “hero.”

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  89. Maurice, what insult? I thought you were a woman. That’s what someone said- that Maurice is a British female name.

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  90. A woman can be gorgeous and have a genetic heart condition (my cholesterol is 248- no man cares or asks).

    Meh, there are exceptions, but that’s not the way to bet. Beauty remains a fairly good proxy for health. (Ugliness is not necessarily linked to poor health unless it results from obesity.)

    Since a beautiful mate will tend to result in more attractive offspring, who will in turn be more likely to succeed in life, the “obsession with attractiveness” has other advantages beyond being a mere surface indicator of good health.

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  91. dreamer–

    I am saying that in most cases, she will have care of the children, and she will need the support of the husband to do so.

    Then let her stay married to him, and make him want to stay married to her. In the great majority of cases with children, women can do that if they want to and are sufficiently motivated.

    Our “post feminist” culture encourages the opposite.

    End that noise.

    Make divorce thin economic gruel for women that can’t handsomely earn their own way.

    That would make it a whole lot rarer in the middle income groups you speak of.

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  92. Female prettiness really has no value outside itself. It does not denote any real sort of health advantage in the woman or in her offspring.

    Prettiness is mostly a function of a woman’s youth, so to that extent, it has an objective reproductive value.

    Its subjective value lies in its power to arouse a man for sex, similar to teh effect a man’s alpha behavior has on arousing a woman.

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  93. “What is YOUR solution to our low-birthrate dilemma amongst the freethinking?

    Have any ideas?”

    not really though I know it’s a problem. We need some kind of cultural shift that stigmatizes childlessness among the more intelligent classes.

    I mean, I live in the US but I have enough Old World in me to feel disgusted by the idea of leaving this earth without reproducing. The laws matter, but the attitude matters even more.

    Like


  94. Also please remember that the getting of a check doesn’t really relate to her need for support. If a woman moves in with someone else, and he is de facto supporting the kids, too, there is no reduction in child support. Even if she re-marries, there is no reduction in child support based on whether she “needs” it unless her new husband adopts the kids.

    Because new guy has no obligation to the kids in question. You, the co-creator of those kids, is the one with the obligation. Keep in mind, for the vast majority of men paying child support, it doesn’t even cover ‘half’ the cost of raising the kids. By getting divorced, the woman is actually giving you a discount on the amount of money that you would otherwise be paying for those kids. I think it is the psychic pain of actually knowing *exactly* how much they are costing you altogether by writing a check each month seems to be the real problem.

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  95. I agree with you that a woman does make a choice to stay at home and care for her children – but this choice is not independent. A woman has more pressure to opt out of her career to care for her household.

    Pressure? What pressure? Who in 2009 America would dare pressure a woman to give up her career for children? Who? For years it has been drilled into our heads that a woman can choose to be a mother or choose to have it all with children and a career, and that this is HER CHOICE. We’ve made countless laws which force employers to recognize, honor, and support HER CHOICE. Any husband daring to go against HER CHOICE will be shamed socially if not raped in divorce court.

    Now you claim that poor, helpless women are being forced to stay home by big bad men? Who are you kidding? It’s 2009, not 1949.

    This is so typical of female psychology. When a woman wants something, she is woman hear her roar and don’t you dare try to stop her! When she doesn’t like the consequences, poor her, she was under pressure, and men with the coercive power of government need to come in and rescue her. This is basic female nature. You see it in everything they do, from the little things to the big things.

    The more I understand women, the more I respect societies that give women no say or power in the political sphere. How can such weak, flimsy, irresponsible little creatures ever be depended upon when it comes to matters of the state, or of the military?

    When children come into the picture, it is not the man who will often make the career sacrifice, but the woman.

    THIS IS WHAT WOMEN WANT! This is THEIR CHOICE! Women fight for laws and government assistance to insure that they can choose to stay home, or choose to go to work, or stay home and then go back to work, and be supported (by men) in THEIR CHOICE no matter what.

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  96. This guy is a hero of our time.

    Ever notice how so many of heroes, mythical and real, are lawbreakers?

    We need some kind of cultural shift that stigmatizes childlessness among the more intelligent classes.

    More religion or less education, or both.

    Like


  97. feministx.blogspot.com

    You know, the law is actually gender neutral. A wealthy woman will have to give up half her estate and pay alimony just the same.

    you are liar. or, you have ovarian morality blindness.

    You state the exception as The Rule, as if the majority of alimony cases are men feeding off women. You spout pure bullshit of the most dangerous kind – that of a brainwashed beneficiary living off a man’s money. go fuck yourself.

    Men choose to make more money and marry younger hotties. Young hottie won’t pursue a career if she knows her man is going to bring the bones home for her.

    now, here, you blame the victim for ‘making more money.’ pure socialist dogma, punishing creators.

    And then, rewarding the false victim for not pursuing a career because she’s busy renting out her vagina to her husband.

    feminisitxcaca – you are as full of shit as a female whale. you are a delusional liar.

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  98. We need some kind of cultural shift that stigmatizes childlessness among the more intelligent classes.

    Or alternately, re-orienting our education-media complex toward promoting in-marriage fertility as something cool and smart young women do.

    Like


  99. If a woman initiates divorce from a man and children are involved, unless she can prove fault by her husband she should not even get child support.

    For somebody who believes that current family courts are jury-rigged against men, I’m amazed that you think that bringing back at-fault divorce would magically solve the problem. One could easily suspect that at fault divorce will just ensure a system where wives can say “he was mean to me and didn’t respect my boundaries and freedom”, and judges with broad interpretation will agree and grant divorces at fault to the men with no real change from the current regime.

    Like


  100. Female prettiness really has no value outside itself. It does not denote any real sort of health advantage in the woman or in her offspring.

    Bullshit. A physically attractive person (male or female) may have health problems. But odds are a physically attractive person is less likely to suffer from poor health than a physically unattractive one. Physical beauty is an imperfect but still generally effective proxy for genetic health, which is why men and women are attracted to physical beauty. For men it’s the primary criteria.

    Since it’s physically impossible for a man’s eyes to sample a woman’s DNA for genetic errors, sampling her beauty was the next best thing.

    Like


  101. Calling all alpha males in the house,

    who are alpha not only in the dominant studliness feminist theorizes will sweep her past her hypergamous lesbian to date ultra barriers into the joys of heterosexual surrender to a sadistic ubermench, AND also offer her loyal life commitment and an alpha income and mainstream social status to boot, all secured by an unmodified and no prenup feminist American marriage for her.

    How can any of you resist? (After all she did post a semi nude pic of a pretty good bod on her blog.)

    Line forms here.

    Who’s first?

    Like


  102. “You know, the law is actually gender neutral. A wealthy woman will have to give up half her estate and pay alimony just the same”

    The law is written gender-neutral, but not implemented or enforced neutrally. Don’t recall the cite, but I believe women earn more than men in 30% of marriages. You could also say that 70% of the time women marry up economically.

    However, when you look at the stats as to who actually pays alimony, you see where the discrimination occurs. Per the IRS and Census numbers, women pay 3% of the alimony in this country, and men the balance. So even though a woman may earn more than her husband, there is only a 10% chance she’ll have to pay alimony, but it is almost 100% chance the dude will have to pay.

    Let that sink in a good, long while.

    There is no equity, justice or marginal fairness with the divorce shakedown for men.

    Like


  103. feministx:

    Racer X would love to fuck you in the ass. And you will love it. Mmmm…

    Like


  104. National Organization for Women (NOW), group founded (1966) to support “full equality for women in America in a truly equal partnership with men.” Its founder and first president was feminist leader Betty Friedan, author of The Feminine Mystique (1963). Through a program of legislative lobbying, court litigation, and public demonstrations, NOW seeks to end sexual discrimination in employment. The largest women’s rights group in the United States, it also supports the establishment of child-care centers for working mothers, legalized abortion, and paid maternity leave, as well as adoption of the equal rights amendment to the U.S. Constitution. NOW works to elect women to office, and seeks the abolition of alimony laws. It consists of approximately 250,000 members, including men, in 800 local chapters affiliated with the main office, located in Washington, D.C.

    Hmmm.

    Like


  105. Pupu

    As far as alimony goes, Pupu has little to say.

    You’re having nothing to say about it disgusts me Pupu.

    Like


  106. Gunslinger:

    Ultra individualist arguments like yours are why the feminists win. People act like families, not individuals, which often means the woman gives up or falls behind in a career to take care of the children, because she is better at taking care of the kids than the man. And any man worth his salt would agree with that. The man is thoroughly complicit in her lack of income/falling behind in her career. It is an implicit exchange. Therefore, if the man violates the terms of the marriage.

    Your “solution” would only encourage women to only look out for themselves and their careers, and not fully commit to the relationship. Not a desirable outcome.

    Again, the problem is no fault.

    Like


  107. dreamer:

    Many people commenting here see marriage as the problem. Marriage is not the problem – divorce is the problem.

    There are no divorces without a prior marriage.Think about it.

    Divorce often affects women more so financially than it does men, hence the need for alimony.

    Women,bless their sweet innocent little hearts,initiate divorce by a factor of 3 to 1 over men.Why would they do so,if,as you say it “affects” them “more”?Nice try bitch.Furthermore “need” is a subjective term which is entirely beside the point.Example;a crack-whore “needs” her cocaine fix.Does it follow that somebody else should be forced to pay for it?

    Go suck a black dick,bitch.

    Like


  108. Because new guy has no obligation to the kids in question. You, the co-creator of those kids, is the one with the obligation. Keep in mind, for the vast majority of men paying child support, it doesn’t even cover ‘half’ the cost of raising the kids. By getting divorced, the woman is actually giving you a discount on the amount of money that you would otherwise be paying for those kids. I think it is the psychic pain of actually knowing *exactly* how much they are costing you altogether by writing a check each month seems to be the real problem.

    Ah, but the post I was responding to suggested that these payments were based on “need”. They are not. They are a child tax for ex-husbands, regardless of the need of the ex-wife.

    Like


  109. Hmmm.

    NOW also is at the forefront of resisting changes to custody law that would create presumptions of joint custody — dead-set against that. Why? Because they know then that support payments would be lessened greatly and eliminated in some cases and ex-spouses would simply divide the rest of the expenses if they shared custody. So of course NOW is against that.

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  110. @anony – well, credit due. i stand corrected on that narrow fact (what’s their stated reason for that position, btw?) but still think there is a larger feminist-agenda-lobby complex that has no equivalent on the male side. that was my larger point. Also, fair point about child support. I pay an enormous amount, and even though it’s a hardship for me, I’d rather bear it than basically abandon my child. that’s a moral choice.

    @DT: right on..!

    @DA: actually, that had occurred to me – that bringing back at-fault for divorce might work against men much of the time, as “fault” is interpreted in the current environment. I wonder what the data show in certain states (New York is one, maybe?) that are not no-fault.

    @vino – agreed, had something similar above.

    @FemX – whatever – not credible. you’ve responded to a number of my posts in the past in which it would be impossible to make that mistake.

    Like


  111. on May 15, 2009 at 2:38 pm Default User

    doug1

    …How can any of you resist?…

    Put up with all of that shit for this? [link]

    Feminastixy is delusional.

    Like


  112. Keep in mind, for the vast majority of men paying child support, it doesn’t even cover ‘half’ the cost of raising the kids.

    This also is plainly false. The amounts are not based on the cost of raising a child, not even close to it. They were dramatically increased in the 1980s under pressure from the federal government to incorporate the alimony standard of “comparable standard of living”. This means that ex-wives, in effect, get supported to a comparable standard of living per the support payments — which is why some people quite aptly call it child alimony. In none of the cases I am personally familiar with is the amount anything close to the actual cost of child raising and is in far excess of it.

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  113. It’s real simple.

    If women want money from men to help them raise children, they should be proving ongoing wifely services to that man. those include sex and deep loving companionship (which should of course flow in both directions).

    If she withdraws those things, as she should be free to do, then he should be able to withdraw his support.

    If she can’t support the kids without him, and can’t win his voluntary help on some basis, then she should have to leave them with him.

    Else she should suck it up and remain in the marriage and make it work for him too, as women can do when they want to.

    The current arrangement is that women make no enforced promises whatsoever when they get American married. It’s all optional for her. When men get American married on the other hand, they make huge financial commitments to their wife.

    So don’t get married. Certainly don’t under those rules (Require a prenup.)

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  114. on May 15, 2009 at 2:42 pm Gunslingergregi

    What is the percent of jobs that are “carreers” one percent maybe. Can’t we just call it a job. Or is it woman have careers guys have jobs. Did my uncle the engineer have a “carreer when he was laid off at 49? He got 24 weeks severance and that is it. How the fuck can woman demand so much more from a man for some piece of their life than a man can demand from a company that employs him.

    Like


  115. @nova – OK, so it had to be something like that. the agenda is the agenda.

    Like


  116. Speaking of NOW, anyone remember the Promise Keepers’ rally on DC in 1997?

    The media gave tons of attention to NOW’s “dissenting position” on the PKs’ message. The news channels gave 24/7 coverage of the PK leader trying to reassure NOW’s head Patricia Ireland that his movement is for responsible husbandhood and other niceguy Christian boyscout things.

    At the time, I didn’t know what NOW’s problem was with PK. They semmed like a bunch of nice guys.

    Looking back now, especially having read the arguments on this blog, it is so hilariously obvious to me now why the more PKs tried to make nice with NOW, the more of a hissyfit NOW was having with this enterprise.

    Like


  117. Feminists want to eat your testicals, it is true because I read it on a douchebag’s blog. CREDIBLE STUFF

    Like


  118. doug1

    How can any of you resist? (After all she did post a semi nude pic of a pretty good bod on her blog.)

    sure, she’s got a bangin’ bod worthy of a dirty lil grudgefuck

    but, like most fuckable girls, she’s lacking in one dept…

    i don’t spend time with the fuckables because i wanna hear what ‘trenchant’ opinions Oprah fed them.

    Like


  119. Keep in mind, for the vast majority of men paying child support, it doesn’t even cover ‘half’ the cost of raising the kids. By getting divorced, the woman is actually giving you a discount on the amount of money that you would otherwise be paying for those kids.

    I’ve seen friends get divorced, and invariably they pay more for a lower standard of living, for both themselves and their children. There is no discount in divorce, trust me.

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  120. The amounts are not based on the cost of raising a child, not even close to it.

    Also keep in mind that nobody is even allowed to scrutinize the administration of so-called child support payments.The receiver can do with it what she pleases.So much for “whats in the best interest of the children.”

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  121. PA

    Looking back now, especially having read the arguments on this blog, it is so hilariously obvious to me now why the more PKs tried to make nice with NOW, the more of a hissyfit NOW was having with this enterprise.

    Yeah. And interesting anecdote.

    As well though NOW types don’t think they want even alpha males to generally be the lords of their home manors. It’s against their ideology. Of course a lot of NOW leaders esp. below the figurehead are lesbians.

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  122. Doug:

    “You’re having nothing to say about it disgusts me Pupu.”

    Coming from a stable and loving family, Pupu knows well how money works in a healthy marriage, but little about how it does in a broken one. Until her own wedding bells are ready to sing, Pupu will remain blissfully ignorant about the ugly side of the story.

    Like


  123. Doug:

    You’re grasping at straws to blame the woman for male adultery. Men sometimes cheat because the wife has withdrawn her services, but often they just cheat cause they like variety.

    The proposals here really would make women into drudges who have to put up with any shit men give them.

    Isn’t it funny how, no matter the question, on this blog, it’s always the womans fault. I agree that men are, on average, more interested in justice than women, but they sure aren’t all that interested in justice.

    Like


  124. My mama got five years’ worth of alimony; the kids had all just flown the coop and Dad felt like he deserved a younger, prettier woman– the party girl he’d never had.

    He was mad, MAD, MAAAAD to be obliged to pay it; he growled at the judge and howled at the moon. I’m sure he’s ranted and raved all over the Internet to anyone who’ll listen, (since nobody in the family will) but my sibs and I all know the score.

    Yeah, go on, quit college so you can put hubby through, spend twenty-five years juggling a brood of kids and a stack of bills and a dozen relocations, and then show me what a badass individualist you are.

    My daily prayer is that my husband be a better man than my daddy. Mama seems to opine that he is.

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  125. Also keep in mind that nobody is even allowed to scrutinize the administration of so-called child support payments.The receiver can do with it what she pleases.So much for “whats in the best interest of the children.”

    Very true as well. Nor does (typically) she need to account for her portion of the support amount and how it is spent, or if it is spent at all. In the case where she moves in with someone or remarries, this results in a complete windfall, and you can bet that the child support check is just as likely to be spent at Nordstom’s as it is for the kid(s). Hence child alimony.

    Like


  126. Firepower–

    As well, if an alpha wants to maximize his chances of divorce theft, I can think of few strategies better than marrying a life long full on lesbian feminist who theorizes that you’ve got the stuff to convert her.

    Or partly convert her, sometimes, when the moon and jupiter are in proper alignment, and she hasn’t decided that really you’ve slipped a bit and it’s all your fault.

    Oh and there’s the concerted and vehement man hating part.

    Such a deal!!! And with a mug like hers too!!!

    Like


  127. omw–

    My mama got five years’ worth of alimony; the kids had all just flown the coop and Dad felt like he deserved a younger, prettier woman– the party girl he’d never had.

    I don’t know whether you’ll believe this, but I would voluntarily make alimony payments for five years in THAT kind of situation. Of course I don’t know their required amount. I wouldn’t be voluntarily munificent but I won’t offer only thin gruel either.

    Like


  128. My ex-husband went into the marriage with zero in savings, did most of the spending, while I spent little to nothing and had always been frugal. My mom gave me 15 grand before I got married to get me started. I went out of the marriage with about the same amount as I went into it, while he came out of it 15 grand richer. So all the money that I made during the marriage, working full time, basically went to him. He didn’t have to pay alimony nor any of the divorce proceeding fees.

    He thinks just like you guys do now. Women suck, American women are self-entitled, immoral and horrible bitches, they never care or love their men, they’ll divorce a man and take all his stuff and the children, or cuckold him and make him pay child support to the whore of a wife. Oh, and the reason the west hates Islam is because their women do everything those men tells them to do, and they are totally faithful and obedient and fearful for their life, which is the way it should be bitches! Kick those bitches and beat them if they get out of line.

    That’s the way it should be, right guys?

    Heh. He really thought I took his “stuff” — because I took the pots and dishes that I used to cook in… because I did all the cooking when we were together, and still continue to cook at home. And when he got arrested for being drunk and yelling at me in public, that was obviously my fault for daring to tell him to stop drinking at his coworker’s wedding and for wanting to go home. Interesting how we used to argue so much that the neighbors called the cops on us several times. But with the guy that I’m with now, we have yet to have one screaming, name-calling session. I wonder who really was the problem.

    The proposals here really would make women into drudges who have to put up with any shit men give them.

    Isn’t it funny how, no matter the question, on this blog, it’s always the womans fault. I agree that men are, on average, more interested in justice than women, but they sure aren’t all that interested in justice.

    Thank you very much for being a voice of reason. Sometimes people here forget that there are bad men out there in addition to bad women.

    Like


  129. doug1

    Firepower–

    As well, if an alpha wants to maximize his chances of divorce theft, I can think of few strategies better than marrying a life long full on lesbian feminist who theorizes that you’ve got the stuff to convert her.

    i hear ya. i don’t even bother to convert babies for jesus, let alone an Indian dyke.

    just saying she’d be good to fuck doggystyle over her ottoman, then wipe my cock off on her sari.

    dirty bitch would sext me the next day – guaranteed

    Like


  130. What’s so “yadda yadda” about marrying a Filipina?

    Like


  131. There is one way that women DO get screwed by alimony. It is when they are Second Wives. There are cases of married-women whose incomes are being garnished to pay for the alimony life-sentence of her husband:

    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/06/13/the_chilling_effect_of_states_divorce_laws/

    Very strange, but true.

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  132. I find the trope, here and in other places like in F. Roger Devlin, that men are these pure, noble creatures always being exploited by women to be such nauseating drivel. Not that I think women are any better, nor do I think the current marriage/divorce regime to be just, but the bias here is nuts.

    Men have Darwinian incentives to cheat on their wives (i.e. variety, trading up for someone younger). And men have Darwinian incentives to undersupport their children (i.e. they may want the money to get more sex (and perhaps future children) from other women). Because of these incentives, society needs to adjust it’s laws accordingly.

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  133. How about this for a reform: Marriage presumes that both parties wish children. If two independent people have sex, that is their business. If the woman chooses to have a child, then it is entirely her choice. There is no presumption that he consents to having a child and, thus, he is not obligated to that child in any way.

    Like


  134. on May 15, 2009 at 3:07 pm Default User

    Pupu

    Default User wonders why Pupu always speaks in the third person. Default User thinks it is kind of cute.

    Like


  135. Ovid

    Auster is a Jew and cares nothing about the truth or men’s well-being.His conservatism is a transparent attempt to harness stupid goy to a yoke in order to pull a Jewish plough.

    Glenn Sacks is a Jew, too, and he is on the right track if you ask me.

    As a gentile, I have seen plenty of my fellow Christians take the exact same paternalistic attitude Auster displays.

    Mostly, it is older men (i.e. old fools) who just missed the divorce revolution of the 70s/80s who cling to idiotic notions of women being victimized by errant husbands. Older men also get kind of weak in the mind when they think of young women. I’ve seen it happen many times.

    To tell the truth, when I have to go before a judge, I hope it is a younger man (for a judge) or a woman. The old men are the biggest pricks of all.

    Like


  136. on May 15, 2009 at 3:08 pm Default User

    Default User should close his tags.

    Like


  137. fillipinas are dirty whores with teeth in their vagina who carry 230 kinds of Syphilis plus the 40UN-er4 strain of gonoherpes.

    it’s true – read it in some Japanese sex-tourists blog my priest sent me.

    Like


  138. I feel sad for men, actually. Their biology makes them have such stupid sexual desires

    as Steve Sailer would say, we have another female pundit who wants to re-engineer society in order to make her look more attractive to men. Meanwhile, she hates men for thinking differently

    Like


  139. It doesn’t really matter what you, hypothetically, would do, Doug. No offense, of course.

    Making men the lord-and-masters of their wives and children simply doesn’t produce universal justice.

    My dad should not have been left to his own devices to think about “what’s fair” because to him, whatever benefits him IS fair. Some mens is like that.

    And he’s not even an evil dude; you’d like him if you met him at a BBQ. He’d be cocky-funny and pretty smart.

    Heh, Hope! I paid my ex about 15K to go away when I was 21. Worth every penny. *blush*

    Like


  140. “Sometimes people here forget that there are bad men out there in addition to bad women.”

    How can we forget when it is blasted 24/7 in our faces that men are vile scum?

    Like


  141. Hope:

    So wait… your mom gave you money you didn’t earn in the workplace and it ended up going to him? Well, that does suck for you… but you do realize you are complaining about something you didn’t actually earn, right?

    And, just a question, but you are an adult, right? And no one held a gun to your head when you decided to marry a drunk, penniless man with no history of being able to provide for himself, right?

    In all seriousness, and I’m not trying to pick on you… but does some small part of rational being in you understand why the guys on this board say that women never take responsibility for their own actions? I am curious: do you think that you should at all be held responsible for the consequences of your actions? or is life just something that “happens” to you?

    Like


  142. I would voluntarily make alimony payments for five years in THAT kind of situation.

    Isn’t the point though that a lot of men would not make voluntary payments?

    Nothing is going to be perfectly fair to all situations though.

    Like


  143. My dad should not have been left to his own devices to think about “what’s fair” because to him, whatever benefits him IS fair. Some mens is like that.

    Mmmhmm. My dad is in his 50s, has two daughters with his second wife, who is soon to be his ex-second wife. Both of those daughters are under 3 years old. When I asked him on the phone why he is getting divorced, he said, “Boredom. Sometimes you just get bored.”

    According to my mom, he cheated on her throughout their marriage, and I knew that he was cheating on his second wife, too. He also beat up my mom and never gave her any alimony, nor did he willingly give me child support. I’ve never even received a single birthday present from him.

    Anyway, I’ve forgiven him, but I’m sure as hell not going to invite that kind of misery into my life.

    Heh, Hope! I paid my ex about 15K to go away when I was 21. Worth every penny. *blush*

    I’d love to talk to you more via e-mail or chat.:) hopewithoutwings@yahoo.com

    Like


  144. on May 15, 2009 at 3:15 pm Marcus Aureliette

    You know, the law is actually gender neutral. A wealthy woman will have to give up half her estate and pay alimony just the same.

    Which is why a prenup & getting involved only with people who are in the vicinity of your income bracket is a good idea, regardless of gender.

    Like


  145. “My dad should not have been left to his own devices to think about “what’s fair” because to him, whatever benefits him IS fair. Some mens is like that.”

    And most women are like this.

    Like


  146. Default User:

    It feels easier, freer, and most of all, safer to send a third person out to the wide world.

    Like


  147. Please, forget about changing laws, reforming marriage, or pushing for a return to the ‘good old pre-feminism days’.

    Marriage is rotten and harmful to men. The genie is out of the bottle and won’t be going back inside. Forget seeking a foreign bride – it’s a hit and miss thing and I assure you that in this globalized, connected world in the 21st century, feminism has its tentacles firmly gripping most parts of the world outside the Anglo-Western-North American sphere. It’s not worth the effort.

    Say no to marriage and all forms of long-term relationships with women. Forget about having your own biological children. Breeding is for the dumb, the poor and the religious. Every teenage boy should have a vasectomy as soon as he reaches the legal adult age.

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  148. “we have another female pundit who wants to re-engineer society in order to make her look more attractive to men. Meanwhile, she hates men for thinking differently

    Femx is a realist when it comes to personal life decisions.

    See, what I want is a man that will demand that I wake him up every morning with a blow job before I cook a nice breakfast. And I want to be required to meet him on my knees wearing only a little lingerie when he comes home from work, waiting to greet him with another blow job.

    And really, most men don’t bother with this kind of interest. They are just too indifferent to women. I am the one not asking society to change for me. I don’t want men to change so more of them fit my preferences. I will go ahead and find the ones that fit my preferences naturally. FemX is no “world is so unfair to me” whining beta.

    Like


  149. on May 15, 2009 at 3:20 pm Default User

    Pupu

    Default User understands. He is glad to meet her.

    Like


  150. As a gentile, I have seen plenty of my fellow Christians take the exact same paternalistic attitude Auster displays

    Case in point:

    http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2008/09/16/uncle-sams-harem-ii/#comments

    Start with comment #6.

    Has Glenn Sacks ever mentioned the heavy Jewish involvement with feminism?

    Like


  151. on May 15, 2009 at 3:21 pm Marcus Aureliette

    —show me a woman who is wealthy and I’ll show you a cunt who stole it from a man in divorce proceedings.

    Not all of us, lurker. Some of us make our own wealth through our own hard work, and surprise! We’re not all that hot on the idea of marriage, either.

    I don’t blame guys for not wanting to get married, or if they decide to, for doing whatever they have to to avoid being taken to the cleaners.

    Like


  152. “most women.”

    Well, that settles it, then! Cpt Napalm’s scathingly intelligent rebuttal convinces me that all women everywhere shall henceforth become the chattel property of their male next-of-kin.😉

    Lacking any male relatives, they shall become the property of David Alexander.

    Let me just call NOW and let them know.

    Like


  153. Feministix- There is a correlations between physical attractiveness and intelligence/health. It’s an imperfect outward manifestitation of genetic goods. Are looks effected by external factors? of course. Can look of physical attractiveness be overcome of course. But its still a good proxy.

    Like


  154. @Master Dogen

    Generally, nothing is wrong with Filipinas. I am illustrating the ‘marry a foreign woman from country XYZ because the women there know how to be women.’ (Or treat a man. Or are traditional… etc.)

    As a practical matter, this advice is not very actionable.

    Like


  155. Correction: Can lack of physical attractiveness be overcome? of course. ..

    Like


  156. Hope to Thursday:

    Thank you very much for being a voice of reason. Sometimes people here forget that there are bad men out there in addition to bad women.

    Hey Thursday, maybe you can marry Hope. She and the other girls all seem to like you.

    Oh, wait… None of them are virgins, and many are divorcees.

    Ooops!

    BTW, Thursday, I had a nun suggest to me that it was my fault my wife cheated because I’d taken a part-time job to help raise the kids (at my ex-wife’s insistence), and therefore wasn’t being a good enough provider. She also suggested I bear the adultery patiently and let her do as she pleased while still living a chaste life and raising my kids.

    So much for Catholic morality. I haven’t gone to church since.

    Like


  157. on May 15, 2009 at 3:26 pm Marcus Aureliette

    kamal:

    The rest is morals. If one partner sacrificed for you such that that partner couldn’t make a living of their own, and was dependent upon you, while you were the bread winner, than if neither partner was a party in adultery, it is fair and just and beautiful and a mark of a man’s benevolence generosity and virtue to leave his wife with some mutually agreed upon financial support for some time until she gets to her feet, or in the case of a stay at home dad, the wife should leave the husband something.

    I limited the quote for the sake of space, but this entire post was awesome. Couldn’t agree more.

    Like


  158. on May 15, 2009 at 3:29 pm Default User

    omw, Hope

    I’d love to talk to you more via e-mail or chat.

    Uh Oh! Women plotting together. This cannot end well.

    Like


  159. So wait… your mom gave you money you didn’t earn in the workplace and it ended up going to him? Well, that does suck for you… but you do realize you are complaining about something you didn’t actually earn, right?

    I’m not complaining about it on my own behalf. That initial 15 grand to be honest should have gone back to my mom. Mostly she’s more pissed off at the situation than I am. Money is not a big deal to me. As I said, I live frugally, and I still save up a ton of money. It’s been a lot easier to save up since I’ve left him.

    And, just a question, but you are an adult, right? And no one held a gun to your head when you decided to marry a drunk, penniless man with no history of being able to provide for himself, right?

    Actually, I wasn’t an adult when he met me. I was 15 years old, and he was 21. I was just a little kid. How easy do you think it would be for a girl that age to fall in love with an older, more experienced man who is intent on showing himself in the best possible light online? He lied with every sentence he wrote, and was extremely adroit at getting a high school girl’s sympathy.

    When I started “supporting” him, I was 17, and still not an adult. He was jobless for a while before I got him a temporary job at the university I was attending. I had helped this “drunk, penniless man” make something of his life, got him to quit smoking and eating more healthily, and I helped him grow as a person.

    He asked me to marry him, but after the marriage, I find out that just about everything he told me about his past were lies and fabrications. He thought that he “had” me, and so he came clean about those lies he held back for all those years. I remained with him for a while longer, but more and more problems surfaced.

    In all seriousness, and I’m not trying to pick on you… but does some small part of rational being in you understand why the guys on this board say that women never take responsibility for their own actions? I am curious: do you think that you should at all be held responsible for the consequences of your actions? or is life just something that “happens” to you?

    Personally, I see it as a good, hard and long lesson. It is what it is. Even before my divorce I started seeing that I was responsible for my own actions and my own happiness. It was ultimately what led to my decision to move out and get away from him. I realized what I really wanted was not to be tied down to this man.

    In the past I had tried to leave him multiple times, but he had threatened to kill himself and guilt tripped me. I stayed out of pity, guilt and compassion, but I never truly admired him. He was an extremely angry person, and he still is. There were many times when he provoked people and tried to act in a macho way, and he’s alienated many friends and coworkers because of it.

    I did my own share of bad things through the years, and I admit this freely. I was insecure and cowardly, naive and foolish. I had been in a few high school relationships while this guy had slept around with a bunch of women in bars and had already lived with someone else. He was my first relationship, and one that I could not let go because I was just as needy.

    It wasn’t until I had resolved that I would be able to remain alone for the rest of my life, and that I am my own complete person, that I met someone who is truly amazing.

    Like


  160. If you sign the marriage contract, you can’t win.

    This UG Professor learned about his wife cheating with a dude at her community theater group. Killed both lovebirds, and took his own life. In a previous era, this cuckold may have received some sympathy. Not in present-day USSA. Note the shaming doesn’t stop, even at death.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/15/zinkhan.body/index.html

    They are dancing on his grave figuratively and literally.

    Like


  161. Thursday–

    She raised his kids. It’s called the division of labour and it is the reason for marriage.

    Despite all the noise from some women to the contrary, raising a couple of kids with modern American appliances and other conveniences is not a full time job. Not even close.

    Raising infants is. More or less. That allows lots of free time in short segments for reading, web, tv or whatever, but creates lots of loss of sleep and few large blocks of free time as well.

    Like


  162. I had a nun suggest to me that it was my fault my wife cheated because I’d taken a part-time job to help raise the kids (at my ex-wife’s insistence), and therefore wasn’t being a good enough provider. She also suggested I bear the adultery patiently and let her do as she pleased while still living a chaste life and raising my kids.

    Lots of social conservatives think that women are pure, noble creatures always being exploited and mistreated by men. They’re wrong too.

    BTW I would be happy to return to a more explicitly patriarchal society.

    Like


  163. omw: In your semi-functional mind, not getting cash from men is the equivalent of being chattel property. Who is this idiot that married you?

    Like


  164. @FemX – maybe I’m the island of Mauritius! I would be in France. moving on …

    Like


  165. Despite all the noise from some women to the contrary, raising a couple of kids with modern American appliances and other conveniences is not a full time job. Not even close.

    The point is that, while a wife may be able to take a part time job after the kids are a bit older, she stiill won’t be able to take on a full career.

    Like


  166. @maurice

    Thanks for the welcome.

    I’m male.

    BG

    Like


  167. on May 15, 2009 at 3:40 pm Marcus Aureliette

    You’re grasping at straws to blame the woman for male adultery. Men sometimes cheat because the wife has withdrawn her services, but often they just cheat cause they like variety.

    The proposals here really would make women into drudges who have to put up with any shit men give them.

    Isn’t it funny how, no matter the question, on this blog, it’s always the womans fault. I agree that men are, on average, more interested in justice than women, but they sure aren’t all that interested in justice.

    Thursday is now my favorite day of the week.:)

    Like


  168. Ovid

    Has Glenn Sacks ever mentioned the heavy Jewish involvement with feminism?

    I think so. He once wrote that he wouldn’t marry a Jewish woman because they were too brutal toward men.

    He’s taken the article offline (probably following some pressure from an embarrassed Jewish community), but here’s an excerpt I found:

    Why I Didn’t Marry a Jewish Woman

    By Glenn Sacks

    Jewish relatives have asked me if I miss that heimish feeling, that sense of Jewish closeness that can come only with an observant and all-Jewish family. I think of my late Russian grandparents, of my aunts and uncles, and of the Jewish celebrations of my boyhood and yes, I do miss it. But for me, the true heimish feeling is little more than a distant memory, for one simple reason: how can I achieve closeness by sharing my Jewish identity when it usually means that I will be degraded and belittled for my masculine identity?

    But honestly, I think Glenn’s pretty much secular. He doesn’t dwell too much on the religious aspects of the issue of men’s rights, for obvious reasons.

    A wise course, IMO. I truly admire the guy, Jewish or not.

    Like


  169. @BinNYC – sorry, I just made the same mistake as FemX has made about me. I guess it was because the male voices here all tend to be variations on the same style…

    Like


  170. All of that is fine if divorce were based on fault. Wife sacrifices her career opportunities for kids. Husband cheats on her. He gets taken to cleaners. Makes sense.

    What makes no sense is the following: wife sacrifices her career opportunities for kids. Ends up sleeping with her fitness instructor. Divorces husband and takes him to the cleaners, getting alimony + child support. This makes no sense. Fault should matter in these situations, and it does not. So while everyone talks about how the woman is getting back on her feet and so on, it should matter whether she was at fault or not.

    As long as we have no fault we will have a lot of unjust situations on both sides — bad behavior by men and women being endorsed by the courts instead of being punished, as they should be.

    Like


  171. and if the couple jointly made the decision for her to sacrifice her career for the benefit the children, how would you counsel her regarding

    jointly decision?

    so if separation was consensual, without any breaking of trust, it is more than reasonable that she gets part of the estate plus alimony for a limited number of years.

    she cheated? she used the fact that she was free at home while hubbie slaved in the galleys? she gets nothing. Husband may feel the need to pay something since she is still mother of his children (if DNA says so), but a cheated husband must have the right to reduce is wife to begging

    Like


  172. Thursday

    BTW I would be happy to return to a more explicitly patriarchal society.

    Good luck getting women to vote with you on that one!

    Like


  173. In your semi-functional mind, not getting cash from men is the equivalent of being chattel property. Who is this idiot that married you?

    He’s a pretty funny idiot. We’re really just a pair of mentally semi-functional, barely literate American peasants, picking ticks off each other’s backs and making babies at a rate that ought to alarm sensible people.
    😀

    Like


  174. “being in a disadvantaged financial position in case of divorce because they chose to marry for looks more than career success”

    http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/23/Marriage-Careers-Divorce_cx_mn_land.html

    Notice that the “rebuttal” is all anecdote.

    Like


  175. novaseeker

    exactly
    fault matters. the party at fault deserves to be fucked.

    Like


  176. on May 15, 2009 at 3:50 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””Hope
    He asked me to marry him, but after the marriage, I find out that just about everything he told me about his past were lies and fabrications. He thought that he “had” me, and so he came clean about those lies he held back for all those years. I remained with him for a while longer, but more and more problems surfaced.”””””””””””’

    The lie was that he killed people in self defense. Even hope demands a killer:)

    Like


  177. Thursday–

    Isn’t the point though that a lot of men would not make voluntary payments?

    Nothing is going to be perfectly fair to all situations though.

    I reality though I’d have strongly urged her to return to at least part time work, or lighter hours full time work, long ago. Then if she hadn’t, it would be different.

    Like


  178. “The point is that, while a wife may be able to take a part time job after the kids are a bit older, she still won’t be able to take on a full career.”

    So what? She chose to have the kids. It isn’t like the guy could do anything if she chose not to. Her choice, her responsibility.

    Like


  179. BTW, Thursday, I had a nun suggest to me that it was my fault my wife cheated because I’d taken a part-time job to help raise the kids (at my ex-wife’s insistence), and therefore wasn’t being a good enough provider. She also suggested I bear the adultery patiently and let her do as she pleased while still living a chaste life and raising my kids.

    So much for Catholic morality. I haven’t gone to church since.

    Welmer —

    Yeah I got the same spiel from a priest at the time. Haven;t darkened the door of a church since then, either.

    Like


  180. Ay, no-fault divorce is pretty much a disaster.

    I can see some cases where assigning fault would be an exercise in stupidity– the 19-year-old kids who get married and realize three months later that they loathe each other, for instance. You see a lot of that around military installations.

    But maybe if divorce were known to be hard to come by, the kids would be less likely to marry some person they met two weeks ago, just to get out of the barracks.

    Maybe not, though.

    Like


  181. omw —

    Maybe there could be an exception for marriages of less than one year in age.

    Like


  182. on May 15, 2009 at 3:54 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””cptnapalm
    omw: In your semi-functional mind, not getting cash from men is the equivalent of being chattel property. Who is this idiot that married you?””””””””””””””

    That was well put. Why do woman think they deserve some shit from a man when they split? If you divide their assets in half and they can’t live off of it that is their problem just like it is the guys problem. They should both be able to go on welfare if they need to I suppose.

    Like


  183. Eh, Doug, Mom and Dad moved way too often for her to hold down anything resembling a steady job. This was probably part of the impetus for her to take her “job” as a stay-at-home mom so seriously.

    Like


  184. Chris Rock said it best:

    When it’s time to get a divorce, women got it made. You go to court, start talkin’ that sh?t. “I’m used to this, I’m used to that. I’m accustomed to this.” What the fuck is accustomed? Whats that got to do with shit? You go to a restaurant, you accustomed to eatin’. You leave, you ain’t eatin’ no more. They don’t owe you a steak. What about what the man’s used to? It might not be money, but during the course of a relationship, a man grows accustomed to a few things. I would love to see a man go to court and say, “Your honor, check this out. I’m accustomed to fuckin’ her four times a week. Now I feel I should be able to fuck her at least twice a week. I mean she can have the alimony, but I want some pussy payments.”

    Like


  185. on May 15, 2009 at 3:59 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””””””””novaseeker
    All of that is fine if divorce were based on fault. Wife sacrifices her career opportunities for kids. Husband cheats on her. He gets taken to cleaners. Makes sense.”””””””””””””””””

    No it doesn’t she could have got online and learned how to do something useful instead of whatever else she did all day. From 3rd grade on I didn’t stay in the house. I was outside roaming the planet. How much time did it take to raise me again.

    Like


  186. Hope–

    Short marriages without kids where both partners earn comparably do not generally screw men over.

    In fact there tends to be little property transfer in either direction in those situations. Often the partner wanting out will end up with less than a fully fair result, just to be done with it.

    In such cases it’s usually the sense of disillusion and heart ache that’s the worst thing about it. Those things are usually there on at least one side and often both whenever a marriage of any length at all dissolves.

    Like


  187. I like it, NS. Or call it an annulment.

    Like


  188. Good luck getting women to vote with you on that one

    Are any of the legislative proposals on this blog likely to be put through?

    Like


  189. Good luck getting women to vote with you on that one!

    Words to ponder:

    BRIFFAULT’S LAW:
    The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal
    family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the
    male, no such association takes place.
    —Robert Briffault

    Like


  190. Gunslinger is exemplifying the statement that libertarianism is applied autism.

    Like


  191. novaseeker

    Yeah I got the same spiel from a priest at the time. Haven;t darkened the door of a church since then, either.

    This must be why churches are now 60% plus female. Yet one still hears priests and preachers rail against men for turning their backs on religion.

    In fact, the churches turned their backs on us long ago. Raping boys wasn’t even seen as a criminal issue by Raymond Hunthausen, the former archbishop of my parish. Strangely, during the same time rape of boys was flourishing, there was nationwide hysteria about rape of women.

    Like


  192. maurice:

    On today’s topic, divorce horror stories from the male side (I have my very own) inflame the faithful, but there are equal horror stories from the other side, as I also know from my life experience. Even if the laws and courts are unjust, you can’t extrapolate that onto every relationship or situation.

    I studied the injustice of laws and courts for a brief time, not on the issue of gender but on race and class. Essentially, the laws and courts are human creations. Most humans are unable to act justly when certain selfish desires come into play.

    Gunslingergregi:

    The lie was that he killed people in self defense. Even hope demands a killer:)

    There were tons of other lies. That was just the one fit for print. Frankly, I don’t like killers. But I could forgive that if he had just told the truth. What kind of man lies about having done things he’s never done? The kind of man who is deeply afraid of who he really is.

    Welmer:

    Oh, wait… None of them are virgins, and many are divorcees.

    Ooops!

    Indeed. Not a virgin, and my goodness, a divorcee! How awful!

    Because of this blog, I had tried to avoid divorce for a while. I consciously chose to try to work out the problems in my marriage, because I didn’t want it to end up as a failure. I didn’t want to be seen as a “divorcee,” a woman of lower “value.”

    But then, I broke free of my mind’s own shackles. And by some twist of fate, soon after moving on from the cesspool of negativity and darkness that was my former life, I’ve met the most incredible man.

    And he doesn’t want to kill anyone.😛

    Like


  193. @hope – what a story. people make stuff up here sometimes, but assuming it’s true, good for you that you didn’t sour on the male species after an experience with one bad specimen.

    how many of us here would say that dude was just plying “game” – picking up a teenage girl based on lies, being supported by her, abuse, anger, etc. – and how many of us would say he’s a piece of shit? We have to know the difference.

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  194. I like it, NS. Or call it an annulment.

    Yes, exactly. Like a “right or rescission, exercisable by either spouse, within the first 12 months. No fault needed in that situation — that would be reasonable to me.

    Like


  195. I like it, NS. Or call it an annulment.

    omw —

    Yes, exactly. Like a “right of rescission, exercisable by either spouse, within the first 12 months. No fault needed in that situation — that would be reasonable to me.

    Like


  196. on May 15, 2009 at 4:09 pm Default User

    Hope

    …And he doesn’t want to kill anyone.

    How beta. I give it six months.
    :)

    Like


  197. This must be why churches are now 60% plus female. Yet one still hears priests and preachers rail against men for turning their backs on religion.

    In fact, the churches turned their backs on us long ago. Raping boys wasn’t even seen as a criminal issue by Raymond Hunthausen, the former archbishop of my parish. Strangely, during the same time rape of boys was flourishing, there was nationwide hysteria about rape of women.

    Welmer —

    Indeed. In many places it is now 70%+ female, and if you take away the married men, there’s generally only a trace amount of single men there. It doesn’t speak to men any longer. Ironic, given that the RCC is seen as a boys’ club due to the all-male priesthood. The priesthood may be all male, but it certainly has it in for men.

    Like


  198. on May 15, 2009 at 4:11 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””””Thursday
    Gunslinger is exemplifying the statement that libertarianism is applied autism.””””””””””””””””””””

    Well when you see your dad divorced you come up with some solutions to it. I am the only one I see here living the solution every day.

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  199. On divorce it should be assumed in a prenup (if you aren’t really well off) that the house will have to be sold.

    That’s right, she’s going to have to live poorer post divorce, and so will the kids.

    A smaller house in a cheaper neighborhood should be the expectation.

    Or she shouldn’t get divorced while there are kids in the house.

    Like


  200. Thursday

    Are any of the legislative proposals on this blog likely to be put through?

    Mandatory paternity testing has a fighting chance.

    From what I’ve discovered, the only successful legislation is legislation that evens the playing field. Without that, there can be no consensus. This is why I support the ratification of the ERA — it would force equal allocation of government funds and services by gender and would trash certain provisions of VAWA, which is one of the biggest nightmare bills ever passed in this country (thanks a lot, OJ).

    Like


  201. maurice:

    how many of us here would say that dude was just plying “game” – picking up a teenage girl based on lies, being supported by her, abuse, anger, etc. – and how many of us would say he’s a piece of shit? We have to know the difference.

    He was not playing game, nor was he a really bad man by any means. He never abused me physically, and he was loving. He was extremely immature back then, and I thought I was more mature than my age. I was in a hurry to grow up, and I thought that we were in love with each other. In truth, we were both in love with mere illusions.

    As much as he yelled at me, I also yelled back and treated him unkindly. It was a downward spiral which neither of us backed away from because we were both deeply terrified individuals — fearful of being alone, of being unloved. It was not love we gave each other, but a prison of our own making.

    I forgive him for all that, and likewise I’ve forgiven myself. The thing is, there are more things that he needs to learn, and I cannot teach them to him. If I cannot love him for who he is, then being with him is just keeping him from a women who would. He deserves someone who genuinely loves him rather than staying with him out of empathy.

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  202. Mandatory paternity testing has a fighting chance.

    Welmer —

    I agree. This is our best shot right now — we have a very good case on this one, especially to men, and men care about this more than they care about other things “that will never happen to them” … until they happen, of course.

    Like


  203. This must be why churches are now 60% plus female.

    I notice that a lot of these complaints are against priests. Conservative Protestant churches tend to be much more man friendly, though they tend to overidealize women too.

    Like


  204. Hope

    Because of this blog, I had tried to avoid divorce for a while. I consciously chose to try to work out the problems in my marriage, because I didn’t want it to end up as a failure. I didn’t want to be seen as a “divorcee,” a woman of lower “value.”

    Is your ex husband the marine (if I remember correctly) of some time back?

    Like


  205. Hope–

    And by some twist of fate, soon after moving on from the cesspool of negativity and darkness that was my former life, I’ve met the most incredible man.

    I almost didn’t see that, you slipped it in so quietly.

    Good for you!!!

    I hope this new guy continues to feel so good to you, down the road. Certainly sounds a promising start.

    Like


  206. The priesthood may be all male, but it certainly has it in for men.

    Most priests are gay.

    Like


  207. I notice that a lot of these complaints are against priests. Conservative Protestant churches tend to be much more man friendly, though they tend to overidealize women too.

    That’s interesting, because I have met quite a few conservative protestant men who say that they feel just as marginalized in their churches — but they are more likely to attend, even if single, than Catholics/Orthodox are.

    Like


  208. @puma/11min – link doen’t work. but i think i get the gist from your comments.

    @nova/anony – second that. no fault after one year is a great idea – but what if there’s a child? shotgun weddings aren’t exactly unknown … i guess in that case you’d have to go through the usual brutal procedures.

    @Thursday – of course not. we’re trying to reshape the world, one blog comment at a time. pretty alpha, eh?

    @welmer/nova – interesting about the RCC, because you’d think as the world’s oldest patriarchal institution, its ideology would be clearly aligned with traditional values. It has been as subject to political trends as everything else, though (ex: Vatican II, liberation theology). Church attendance is a different question, and more interesting – why is it, do you suppose, that women attend in greater numbers? Is it that they are in greater need of guidance from an authority figure? Is it that the traditional morality preached seems to be aimed more at restraining male impulses? Hadn’t thought abotu it much before, actually, but it’s a good question.

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  209. novaseeker

    exactly
    fault matters. the party at fault deserves to be fucked.

    That is putting it as succinctly as possible. Men lose ugly in divorce now, whether they are at fault of not, hence why they are refusing to marry.

    There are going to be a lot of childless women getting up in years in about a decade—-probably going batty over it.

    Like


  210. on May 15, 2009 at 4:20 pm Gunslingergregi

    And Thursday solutions are being asked I have the solutions. Whats the problem.

    Like


  211. on May 15, 2009 at 4:23 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””on May 15, 2009 at 4:19 pm z
    novaseeker

    exactly
    fault matters. the party at fault deserves to be fucked.”””””””””””””””””””””

    Nobody deserves to be fucked over. They need to be free to be human beings. If they don’t create shit together they don’t get shit. Why does the gov need to step in to force either party to become slaves.

    Like


  212. Thursday–

    The point is that, while a wife may be able to take a part time job after the kids are a bit older, she stiill won’t be able to take on a full career.

    Sure she can and plenty do.

    As well women want children far more than men do. Life is full of trade offs.

    If she’s going to emphasize her motherhood role, and doesn’t want to work full time as some it’s it’s possible to do so (or earn enough to pay for a nanny) maybe she should make the marriage work.

    Like


  213. David Evans is an Alpha. He calmly ignored his divorce orders. Went away for 5 years and spent every single penny living his dream:

    http://photos.igougo.com/pictures-j51675-s2-10_Days_in_a_Tropical_Paradise-photos.html

    I am suspecting that after 5 years of fvcking and svcking half the female population of Sumatra, he ran out of money. He came back to this wedding to deliver that one final Fuck You to the system (and his ex-wife). Unlike Chad Beatty they probably won’t be able to keep him in prison for long. If he truly did spend every single cent, the court cannot keep him beyond a limited criminal contempt charge.

    Chad Beatty’s problem is the self-inflicted impossibility charge of civil contempt of court, and that he theoretically holds the key to his own release, should he repatriate the funds that he snuck out.

    If David Evans proves that he spent every single penny, or repatriates whatver that remains, they can’t keep him in jail for long.

    Like


  214. Maurice —

    @nova/anony – second that. no fault after one year is a great idea – but what if there’s a child? shotgun weddings aren’t exactly unknown … i guess in that case you’d have to go through the usual brutal procedures.

    Yeah I had the same thought — but if there is a kid, it has to be resolved. I would still argue for a presumption of joint custody, but with 19 year olds who knows — kind of like a Bristol Palin situation, but with marriage thrown in.

    Church attendance is a different question, and more interesting – why is it, do you suppose, that women attend in greater numbers? Is it that they are in greater need of guidance from an authority figure? Is it that the traditional morality preached seems to be aimed more at restraining male impulses? Hadn’t thought abotu it much before, actually, but it’s a good question.

    Feminism and the broader PC culture have had a huge impact on the RCC in the US. The way that things are taught tends to idolize female behavior and problematize male behavior. This is an adjustment to the prior church regime, which tended to criticize both, but was quite harsh on female behavior, with Mary (virgin) as the “ideal woman”.

    That’s all changed. The nuns are totally infected with feminism. My mother had a good friend who left the religious order she was in in the early 80s because it had degenerated into womyn studying feminist studies who lived in a convent and had sex with each other — not kidding. Now it isn’t so much like that now, because very few people are becoming nuns and priests any longer, but the atmosphere in the church is very PC.

    I think women are more attracted to it because in its current iteration it is very emotional and appeals to the emotions. The older Catholic tradition is very cerebral, almost cold — quite male (think Thomas Aquinas). The current version is very song and dance, very emotional, very … feminine. It doesn’t really speak to men. Hokey hymns, felt banners, emotionally-oriented sermons and so on.

    Like


  215. Hokey hymns, felt banners…

    Very funny nova.You brought back so many memories from my parochial school days.

    Like


  216. Thursday

    Most priests are gay.

    Certainly was the norm in seminaries back in the 60s-80s, from what I’ve heard. Benedict has allegedly taken measures to change this.

    Sometimes I wonder why gay men have generally teamed up with women against straight men. Seems like a betrayal to me, but I guess straight guys did treat them like garbage for a long time.

    novaseeker

    That’s interesting, because I have met quite a few conservative protestant men who say that they feel just as marginalized in their churches — but they are more likely to attend, even if single, than Catholics/Orthodox are.

    Could be because divorce isn’t as much of a stigma in Protestant churches, so divorced men are more likely to attend.

    Like


  217. @hope – OK, more info, with more equal blame for unhappiness and failure of marriage than the first post. women do mature earlier than men do. and good for you re admitting your mistakes in the marriage – I was able to do so as well in my case and it helped me to move on.

    my question was actually not for you as much as all the other guys here piling on to the view that marriage is always theft, cuckolding, etc. and the women always wrong. i agree that the laws are flawed but the institution need not be. but you have gone ahead and shown more equal blame, undercutting the point I was trying to make but getting at a better truth. individual cases are always more revealing and useful than generalities.

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  218. Maurice says: “i agree that the laws are flawed but the institution need not be. “

    The laws ARE the institution.

    LAWS = INSTITUTION

    You change the laws, bam! you’ve changed the institution. It’s that simple. We all keep using the word “marriage” in this thread, but we have to notice something.

    The marriage that exists on the books as of late is “Marraige 2.0”. It is a different body of law than the one your grandparents married and lived under. It is a different beast. Old crusty conservative pundits don’t get it when they are shaming young men about not marrying. Their mental schema of “marriage” is really “Marriage 1.0” a species that does not exist anymore.

    Let us not confuse the two.

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  219. The older Catholic tradition is very cerebral, almost cold — quite male (think Thomas Aquinas).

    There was a balance in the old Catholicism. Christianity always had it’s feminine side, but that was a good thing. (If you want to see the problems that arise when a religion is too masculine, see Islam). However, now it has gone too far and turned to feminized goo. One can only hope for a restoration.

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  220. maurice

    i agree that the laws are flawed but the institution need not be. but you have gone ahead and shown more equal blame, undercutting the point I was trying to make but getting at a better truth. individual cases are always more revealing and useful than generalities.

    I may write of more equal blame, but in general people tend to want things to be black-and-white, cut-and-dry. How interesting would stories be if there was never a clear good fighting against an obvious evil? But individual cases are always more nuanced, aren’t they?

    Welmer

    Is your ex husband the marine (if I remember correctly) of some time back?

    Yes.

    Incidentally, last I heard, he has moved on and has a girlfriend now. So I am happy for him.

    doug

    I almost didn’t see that, you slipped it in so quietly.

    Good for you!!!

    Thank you.:)

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  221. puma80

    The marriage that exists on the books as of late is “Marraige 2.0″. It is a different body of law than the one your grandparents married and lived under. It is a different beast. Old crusty conservative pundits don’t get it when they are shaming young men about not marrying. Their mental schema of “marriage” is really “Marriage 1.0″ a species that does not exist anymore.

    Exactly. That’s why I think the whole thing ought to be tossed in the garbage. Marriage 2.0 is a disaster.

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  222. i was clear in my post

    I was referring to the commenters. I should have been more precise.

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  223. Is your ex husband the marine (if I remember correctly) of some time back?

    Hope:

    Yes.

    Incidentally, last I heard, he has moved on and has a girlfriend now. So I am happy for him.

    Ah. Well, you’ve always been pleasant and polite, so I won’t criticize too much, but this does tend to confirm my suspicion about most of the women posting on this site.

    Too bad about the divorce, but since there weren’t any kids involved (I assume), it’s not a tragedy.

    Like


  224. Not only does Catholicism tend to drive away men, but Catholic women, it seems to me, tend to be girlier than conservative Protestant women.

    Like


  225. on May 15, 2009 at 4:46 pm Sonny Crockett

    Uhhh Guys…

    According to the profile on the blog, feministx is either a Transvestite or Transexual. NOT a woman.

    “Interests: I could call myself queer identified. I date boys, bois, girls, t girls and probably a few other sexual categories too.”

    Why do you think he puts up with all the abuse you heap on him?

    Because he loves that you all think he, is a she.

    Better keep that in mind before professing how much you want to do him in the ass, etc.

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  226. Sometimes I wonder why gay men have generally teamed up with women against straight men. Seems like a betrayal to me, but I guess straight guys did treat them like garbage for a long time.

    Welmer — I think that’s it –> they both see straight men as the enemy in a way. Or rather “patriarchy” as the enemy.

    Could be because divorce isn’t as much of a stigma in Protestant churches, so divorced men are more likely to attend.

    That could very well be, Welmer.

    <There was a balance in the old Catholicism. Christianity always had it’s feminine side, but that was a good thing. (If you want to see the problems that arise when a religion is too masculine, see Islam). However, now it has gone too far and turned to feminized goo. One can only hope for a restoration.

    Thursday — fair enough. My last stop in Christianity was the Orthodox Church, which had a nice balance of masculine and feminine. Better than the current RCC, I think.

    The laws ARE the institution.

    LAWS = INSTITUTION

    You change the laws, bam! you’ve changed the institution. It’s that simple. We all keep using the word “marriage” in this thread, but we have to notice something.

    The marriage that exists on the books as of late is “Marraige 2.0″. It is a different body of law than the one your grandparents married and lived under. It is a different beast. Old crusty conservative pundits don’t get it when they are shaming young men about not marrying. Their mental schema of “marriage” is really “Marriage 1.0″ a species that does not exist anymore.

    Let us not confuse the two.

    Here I agree with Puma.

    Sure, it’s possible to have a marriage that works. 45% of first marriages end in divorce, but that means 55% do not. Still a coin toss, but you can end up on the right side of the coin. The issue I have is that the reason why the 45% figure is so high is because of the law. The laws need to be changed.

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  227. Ah. Well, you’ve always been pleasant and polite, so I won’t criticize too much, but this does tend to confirm my suspicion about most of the women posting on this site.

    Too bad about the divorce, but since there weren’t any kids involved (I assume), it’s not a tragedy.

    I came to this site to learn how to be a better “mate.” It was a good thing, at least for a while. I worked hard on the marriage and made it a lot “better,” but the love was missing. Incidentally, it was when I stopped coming here for about half a year that I moved out and got the divorce. Take that as you will.

    No kids, although I did have an ectopic pregnancy and a miscarriage.

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  228. actually the catholic church has always played on the emotions, dating from its history as the universal church of the Christendom of the middle ages. Conveying scripture and morality to illiterate peasants necessitated stories with emotional immediacy to illustrate the pionts – lives of the saints, etc. protestantism is more rational, befitting its origins in a later, more literate and proto-scientific age. aquinas was a phillospher who was a theologian because of when and where he lived. (horrible simplification.) the jesuits are another example of that rational tradition, and they were a product of the counter-reformation – that is, the Church’s response to Protestantism.

    These are good reminders. I remember that from when I was Catholic — there is the emotional element going back to the tradition too. I generally ignored it, given my bent. But it was there. The masculine element has been dissed, though, today. I mean you can sit around reading papal encyclicals and so on and be immersed in the masculine side of the RCC, but the actual life of the institution here in the US is not like that.

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  229. pez

    Where I live…childcare costs: $500 or more a week
    Cleaning person $125
    Eating out/prefab food M-F $400-500
    Personal assistant? more than that….
    Life coach?
    shrink?

    Wow, you’re pretty needy. Up to $500/week on eating out? For God’s sake, learn to cook! Only takes about $40/week for me to feed myself, and that’s good food, such as: black bean soup, pulled pork sandwiches, fish and chips, fresh fruit, lamb kebab, red beans and rice, meatballs (I make them myself), fried chicken, etc. Also, restaurants are a lot filthier than most people realize and they load foods with huge amounts of salt, sugar and fat.

    You want to get in shape? Just start jogging and doing isometric exercises. Things are much easier and cheaper than people think.

    BTW, I live in Seattle, where life is quite expensive.

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  230. And I should remember to close my tags:

    actually the catholic church has always played on the emotions, dating from its history as the universal church of the Christendom of the middle ages. Conveying scripture and morality to illiterate peasants necessitated stories with emotional immediacy to illustrate the pionts – lives of the saints, etc. protestantism is more rational, befitting its origins in a later, more literate and proto-scientific age. aquinas was a phillospher who was a theologian because of when and where he lived. (horrible simplification.) the jesuits are another example of that rational tradition, and they were a product of the counter-reformation – that is, the Church’s response to Protestantism.

    These are good reminders. I remember that from when I was Catholic — there is the emotional element going back to the tradition too. I generally ignored it, given my bent. But it was there. The masculine element has been dissed, though, today. I mean you can sit around reading papal encyclicals and so on and be immersed in the masculine side of the RCC, but the actual life of the institution here in the US is not like that.

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  231. Of that 55% of men that do stay married, how many of them are cuckolded? Let’s asssume a conservative 1950’s/Kinsey-era infidelity rate of %20. So of this 55 guys of men who stay married, probably 11 of them are cuckolds. So the ratio of good guys who didn’t get screwed is now down to 44%-net. Perhaps this 44% don’t get cuckolded, but I wonder how many of them are happy?

    Now let’s factor in modern-era infidelity rates. What are we left with then? When you factor it all in, some net-20% of the original group of men who got married are probably still happy and not living a lie. No more.

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  232. “You’re completely wrong. Men want to believe that their obsession with female attractiveness has some reproductive value. Not anymore.

    A woman can be gorgeous and have a genetic heart condition (my cholesterol is 248- no man cares or asks). A bad skin condition would make a girl very ugly but would not affect her overall health and reproductive capacity.”

    Femx, you’re such a dumb shit it’s unbelievable! All the things you talk about relate to current technology–the last 100 years max. This is not about to overcome thousands of years of evolutionary selection.

    Years ago I had a GF who was wonderful in every way, but she was 5′ 5″ and weighed 78 lbs. Always in the hospital or on crutches from phlebitis. I thought about what our life would be like and backed out of it, with no regrets. I hope she’s still around today and that life has been good to her.

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  233. <iWhere I live…childcare costs: $500 or more a week
    Cleaning person $125
    Eating out/prefab food M-F $400-500
    Personal assistant? more than that….
    Life coach?
    shrink?

    Huh?

    My cleaning person (team) in DC is $62 pw. $100 per day for food?? Personal assistant? I don’t have one. Why do you need one? Life coach?

    Is this intended to be a joke? There is a difference between wants and needs.

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  234. Let’s asssume a conservative 1950’s/Kinsey-era infidelity rate of %20. So of this 55 guys of men who stay married, probably 11 of them are cuckolds. So the ratio of good guys who didn’t get screwed is now down to 44%-net. Perhaps this 44% don’t get cuckolded, but I wonder how many of them are happy?

    Now let’s factor in modern-era infidelity rates. What are we left with then? When you factor it all in, some net-20% of the original group of men who got married are probably still happy and not living a lie. No more.

    These are fair points. But if the law were changed, it would be different.

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  235. So at one point, a guy might just say — you wanna throw me inprison? fine. But she’s still not getting any alimony from me.

    As somebody who has had an older brother and cousin serve time in both the state and federal systems respectively, I’d rather pay her. I understand that you’d feel bitter about paying alimony, but imprisonment for non-payment just isn’t worth it.

    There are no trains or blogs in prison…

    Does she promise him that she’s have sex with him?

    Repeat After Me: Sex with a woman who isn’t in the mood is pointless and no better than jerking off. If she isn’t in the mood, go jerk off. You might actually get a better orgasm without the thrusting and sweating.

    Alimony in this age of equal female economic opportunity is absolutely obscene.

    In theory, the problem is that if she chose to work part-time or no hours at all or she suppressed her career momentum in order to be able to take care of the children, then when she divorces, her market value to employers is less than what it would have been if she didn’t curtail her work opportunities in the first place, hence why she needs more support.

    OTOH, if you’re married with no kids, and you sat at home doing nothing, then you really don’t deserve alimony. If you were a blatent and repeated cheater with kids, then yes, you don’t deserve alimony.

    The solution is to have more stable marriages, a society that values marriage as a structured part of a well-functioning society. Marriage is not the enemy.

    Marriage is the enemy until women find beta males sexually attractive.

    Most men would far rather have a consensual understanding, but our culture is militant against that, and that men’s cheating is some horror. It’s absurd.

    If there’s no monogamy, then it’s a broken marriage. If you can’t be monogamous, then you shouldn’t be married.

    If she can’t support the kids without him, and can’t win his voluntary help on some basis, then she should have to leave them with him.

    In theory, that makes sense, but how many divorced men really want to be single fathers and deal with the cries of the children when it comes to old sentiment of “mommy does/cooks/makes it this way”.

    Else she should suck it up and remain in the marriage and make it work for him too, as women can do when they want to.

    I had a female friend who’s mom stayed in the marriage despite her problems with her husband (alcoholism, some verbal abuse) because she didn’t want to go on welfare to raise her kids. She divorced him while the kids were in their twenties and finished with school. He paid no alimony. Of course, he avoided paying child support and alimony, but he still went through an expensive divorce and he lost his wife and home. It still isn’t any better if she holds out until the kids are older.

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  236. doug1

    I’ve never felt that if a man simply left his wife for a younger model with young kids in the picture, he shouldn’t have to pay child support.

    I don’t think many men would argue over this, but if you take a look around, this kind of divorce is in the small minority – maybe 5% or less – of all divorces.

    When young kids are in the picture, the women almost always initiate the divorce one way or the other.

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  237. Welmer–

    I don’t think many men would argue over this, but if you take a look around, this kind of divorce is in the small minority – maybe 5% or less – of all divorces.

    I agree.

    But this is the model and the picture of typical divorce that feminists and many conservatives as well have used to craft our property settlement and child support and alimony laws upon.

    Then they slipped in no fault “merely for convenience and to avoid needless messiness, hurt and trauma in court,” by implication mostly that of cheating or abusing men. Yeah right.

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  238. on May 15, 2009 at 5:17 pm Gunslingergregi

    Yea biggest thing to remember is that the woman you divorce is not the woman you married. They demonize the man from what I have seen and heard once the descision is made in their heads. Nothing before that point that was good is taken into consideration in a lot of instances. Family trips laughing good times that is all gone in their minds. That is the problem. Yea ok woman getting left. Yea it sucks. But the woman is just getting left. She is not getting left and made to support her husband that left her for years afterward. . See a difference.
    Course now yea great teh trend will reverse now woman will get to pay men men will get to pay woman. Someones always got to pay. They are getting divorced nothing should force them to be together anymore. The government had become stronger in peoples lives than the church was in the last century. It is your god now.

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  239. To me the point isn’t to diss women, but to diss the law. The law sucks. It hands women too many weapons.

    Sloppy thinking there my friend.Why do women avail themselves so lustily of those weapon-like laws?Also,how did those laws get to be laws to begin with?Think on it my friend.

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  240. If there’s no monogamy, then it’s a broken marriage. If you can’t be monogamous, then you shouldn’t be married.

    DA —

    Have to say I am with you on this one. I do think that male adultery is less “serious” in terms of being a threat to the marital relationship, but I see it as a quid pro quo. You don’t stray and she doesn’t stray. That’s reciprocity.

    But I do agree with doug1 that if she strays usually it is much more total than men straying.

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  241. In theory, that makes sense, but how many divorced men really want to be single fathers and deal with the cries of the children when it comes to old sentiment of “mommy does/cooks/makes it this way”.

    DA —

    Doesn’t really reflect my experience. It could be because I have a son, but he loves his time with me. It’s his guy time, not having to deal with Mom. I enforce rules, but as a guy does. He gets it, and loves it. He would love more time with me, and he probably will get it as he advances through his teens. For boys at least once they get to the separation point from Mommy, they often prefer Dad.

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  242. Sloppy thinking there my friend.Why do women avail themselves so lustily of those weapon-like laws?Also,how did those laws get to be laws to begin with?Think on it my friend.

    Men.

    Seriously, how many women were in the legislatures when no fault was passed? Almost none. These men had no balls.

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  243. Gunny

    They demonize the man from what I have seen and heard once the descision is made in their heads. Nothing before that point that was good is taken into consideration in a lot of instances.

    Yeah. Even Hope is doing that. And I do mean “even”. Hope is a very fair minded kind of girl, or tries to be. Not a big devote of players, to be sure, but with some appreciation that game can work and certainly that there’s much to be said for gender realism.

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  244. @nova – true, well said. men have patriarchal obligations, women have post-patriarchal freesoms. that’s the listing to the left i was trying to describe in a less eloquent way.

    @obs – you would pull mad, mind-blowing tail if you walked through certain parts of Moscow after midnight. trust me on this. i know just where to do it.

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  245. Because a whole lot of the time male adultery is in truth pretty trivial.

    Married men who cheat end up taking out multiple women off the market. His wife his off-limits, and so is the woman who serves as his mistress, and if that woman is married, then that’s another man’s wife who is being locked away. If you don’t care about beta access to women, then that’s certainly not a problem, but if you do, then you can’t support male adultery.

    thomas sowell is a great man but i wouldn’t go walking through anacostia at 3am.

    What is the ratio of Thomas Sowell to Tyrone the Gangster in the black population? That affects how Thomas Sowell is treated by the greater society.

    Oddly, I would avoid Anacostia and a nice white neighbourhood at night…

    Their mental schema of “marriage” is really “Marriage 1.0″ a species that does not exist anymore.

    The problem is that Marriage 1.0 sucks for beta males as well since it assigns them sexless women that are incapable of loving them, and who only stay due to having few options. The problem is most beta males are unaware of their unattractiveness, and the alphas and gamer-using men who post here are immune to that problem and have no concerns about saving beta males from an awful plight.

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  246. Everybody does that, Doug. Your portrait of your ex is a fun caricature, after all. The frigid Jewish rad-fem harridan.😉

    Surely there were things that were “good” about her. That doesn’t mean you wanted to stay till you died.

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  247. Seriously, how many women were in the legislatures when no fault was passed? Almost none. These men had no balls.

    I notice you didnt respond to my first query.As to the second;legislatures are elected bodies,women make up a majority of the electorate.Also men are more likely to due women’s bidding than vice versa.”Men control everything” is a lame feminist argument.

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  248. novaseeker

    Either we come up with something else that promotes social stability and male investment in society, or we don’t. And if we don’t …

    Yes, that’s necessary, and I think it’s really up to us. I’m starting to think that what it will take is the establishment of groups of men with common interests/problems. I’ve studied ancient China quite a bit, and despite the seemingly rigid, hierarchical structure of the empire, there were a great many powerful, autonomous patriarchal clans throughout the empire. I imagine the same thing was going on in Rome, but I don’t know the history as well. The groups known as the triads originated with these clans, and the merchant communities that spread overseas from Canton and Fujian were essentially ruled by them. One can still find clan temples spread throughout SE Asia where Chinese communities settled. Chinese patriarchal groups contributed immensely to Chinese wealth and power.

    Today, American men see organizations’ only function as profit or power. There is really no sense that they can also provide some form of welfare, job security, or even benefits to their families after they die. Fraternal organizations and a lot of immigrant groups used to do this, but modern American men have been largely atomized, and they also have this idea that it is OK to step on other men to prove their own manliness or to please women. There is really no sense of honor or mutual obligation outside of the military, and even there it ends as soon as you get out.

    It’s up to us to rebuild some form of camaraderie, which won’t be easy, but it’s getting to the point of necessity.

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  249. That should be “do” up above

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  250. “transsexual who thinks s/he is all that, but is not:”

    Why do you think I am a transsexual? I’m really not clear on why people want to believe that I was born a male.

    ““Femininity may signal fertility rather than health per se (Johnston 2000, Johnston &Franklin 1993, Symons 1979). The reasoning is that high estrogen/androgen ratiosare associated with both feminine characteristics (e.g., small jaw, full lips) andfertility. A preference for feminine faces, therefore, would target sexually maturefemales. Facial femininity could also signal individual differences in fertility inadult females, to the extent that femininity declines with age.””

    The implications of this are greatly exaggerated. We live in a society where people only want a few kids over the course of a lifetime, so a less fertile woman is not a big deal. Even very ugly women can produce children that can survive to the age where they can reproduce themselves. We have a dysgenics problem in our society, after all, where the lowest IQ people reproduce the most (especially when they are NAMs).

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  251. not even chuck norris can roundhouse kick the divorce industry into submission.

    Wouldnt it be awfully fun to see Chuck roundhouse kick Gloria Allred in the face?

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  252. Doesn’t really reflect my experience. It could be because I have a son, but he loves his time with me. It’s his guy time, not having to deal with Mom.

    I remember when I was younger when my mom went back to Haiti to take care of some familial concerns, and we stayed with our dad. Admittedly, I’m a mommy’s boy, and I love my dad, but it just wasn’t the same as having both of them there. My brother and I missed our mom like crazy because we were so used to her doing things her way. That doesn’t mean that my dad is an awful parent, but to a little kid, stuff like making sandiwches for lunch, and mac & cheese the right way are really important.

    The result of that is many men refusing to invest, and withdrawing not just from marriage but from society.

    That’s the part that I don’t understand. I may be aware of my general unattractiveness to women, but I don’t see myself going off the grid or going crazy. I have a niece and nephew, friends and family, and hobbies to keep myself occupied. Yes, I may not have a wife and kid to work for, but I’d like a high income to ensure that I can have a comfortable lifestyle, and that requires some degree of investment in the system.

    Will it be stable enough for children, shuttling between not just two parents but presumably two sets of step-parents?

    It depends on how stable the parents are in general. In theory, if the parents are close with each other, and we’re dealing with the middle class, then it could work out.

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  253. I notice you didnt respond to my first query.As to the second;legislatures are elected bodies,women make up a majority of the electorate.Also men are more likely to due women’s bidding than vice versa.”Men control everything” is a lame feminist argument.

    Ovid —

    As to your first argument, I think in general that people — men and women alike — will use whatever weapons they have available when they get into a conflict. Right now, women have more weapons than men in a divorce, especially if there are kids … and that means they use them more. I don’t think women are more evil than men, but they have more weapons, so they use them.

    Yes of course women have a majority of the electorate, but that just means male politicians have no balls. Yes I know they rely on women to get elected. Men had the decision as to whether to even have a debate about no fault, and they caved. Do I agree they had political pressure. But they had no balls. Where was the debate? These were the proto-alphas that sold almost all men down the river by playing to the pussy vote. I don’t have a lot of good words for them.

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  254. omw-

    The frigid Jewish rad-fem harridan.

    You’re caricaturing what I’ve said about her. It was nothing like that.

    First of all I’ve never treated her as having been Jewish as a diss. I didn’t even mention that anywhere near talking about the divorce. Someone else remembered I’d mentioned it and attacked her on that basis, with some “no wonders”. I just wasn’t feeling like defending her at the time, so left it alone then.

    Second she was far from a harridan, and I never suggested she was. Very far. She was a sweetheart in fact. Until the last six months we got along day to day very well. She was sweet to me. We were best friends. In many ways she looked up to me and followed me, sort of. I made the big decisions, just naturally, but in full consultation. E.g. it was me that wanted to get a summer place, and then who figured out where, in full consultation and mutual exploration. Point is I was leading it.

    We talked all the time, and shared our troubles, and joys. It would have been nice if she was more athletic and adventurous, but it wasn’t such a big deal either. She got terrrified sailing once in bad whether, so stopped that. But she did learn to ski, sort of, and was happy going skiing with me and friends even if she did tend to like the spa and hot tub more. That was fine. She was happy taking ski trips with me and my friends out West or Europe a couple of times. As was our going to the ballet together which was yeah mostly for her but I liked it too. Some pretty hot balarinas in the NYC Ballet, and we went with friends.

    The problem was sexual. But that wouldn’t get better no matter what. She wasn’t that much of a rad feminist about anything but that, or it just didn’t come up, but there it did, and was her bulwark against change.

    Anyway, that’s more than I wanted to get into.

    It’s simply untrue that I’ve ever presented her as bad news all around. I haven’t and she wasn’t.

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  255. I am aware that at some crucial point in history, our sexual preferences must have evolved because they were advantageous. But I don’t think they are anymore.

    Objectively speaking, there isn’t anything wrong with a beta provider or a plain jane with good character.

    And while I am not the judge of how boring or repetitive I may seem to others, I for sure know that I am not a tranny. So absurd.

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  256. OMW–

    Now is Hope going to say something similar about her ex?

    I doubt it.

    Divorced women very rarely do.

    It does happen sometimes, esp. if he’s famous or something, but it’s rare.

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  257. Yes divorce takes away your balls…or at least a good divorce attorney does…

    what I said before, was to take the kids, not rake the kids. I don’t disagree with you that if a woman is to blame for all the mayhem, that she deserves squat. But regardless, the children are not toys. If their mother is being callous to them, should their father be as well?

    And yes anyone can get divorced…BUT…what I meant by the beta comment, was simply, that most alphas would see the writing on the wall…if you know what a women may be capable of…sterotypes existing for a reason and all…that particular breed is a fun romp, not wife material to an alpha. And again protect yourself, condoms aren’t enough! LOL

    Going out for cocktails….adios!

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  258. It’s up to us to rebuild some form of camaraderie, which won’t be easy, but it’s getting to the point of necessity.

    Indeed, Welmer, as you pointed out well in your blog a week or so ago.

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  259. Ah, that’s fine, Doug. I’m not going to dig up your posts, but I distinctly recall you saying some pretty unflattering things about her. Which is fine; it’s the way people cope.

    I’ve referred to my first husband as a “self-loathing porn addict” and I’d stand by that assessment, even if there were also things about him that were lovely.

    The point is, virtually everyone who’s had a divorce will form a mental image of the other person that is pretty much comprised of the most unflattering aspects of their personalities.

    Whoever decides to leave first is going to have the edge on forming that mental picture.

    And if you’re a woman, with your ever-declining declining level of attractiveness, what sense does it make to wait another five years for the other shoe to drop?

    Once the love goes, so goes your security.

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  260. feministx

    I for sure know that I am not a tranny. So absurd.

    It was a metaphor dumbo.

    What you are is a completely artificially constructed persona, that you make up as you go along.

    I know for sure you’re not really bi-sexual, as opposed to a man hating lesbian.

    You just think bi-sexual presents a lot better in your self deluded quest for a husband, and a committed alpha one on all dimensions at that.

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  261. David Alexander

    Married men who cheat end up taking out multiple women off the market. His wife his off-limits, and so is the woman who serves as his mistress, and if that woman is married, then that’s another man’s wife who is being locked away. If you don’t care about beta access to women, then that’s certainly not a problem, but if you do, then you can’t support male adultery.

    I think if we look at cheating objectively, we’ll find that trashy people of both sexes do the majority of cheating. You’re trailer trash and ghetto types cheat on each other all the time — both men and women.

    So if you have a guy who fools around a lot, there’s a good chance the wife is doing so as well. So the adulterous guy often isn’t so much taking women off the market as he is a part of a community of people of both sexes who are all scummy.

    This is why it’s important to marry the right person (I learned the hard way). Unfortunately, women are better at fooling men, and I think this is one of the biggest reasons guys get suckered so much more often than women do.

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  262. Dave Alex,
    Interesting what you said about your parents, though hardly surprising. As much as I loved my mom, life was just more interesting w/my dad, and when my mom was in hospital after breaking her leg on the icy sidewalk in front of the supermarket one Wintry day (heck of a case!), my dad took over duties for the next week or so.

    We got up at the same time he did, around 5AM, had grits, scrambled eggs, etc. He cooked em every morning, and I for one loved. At dinner, among other things, we had potato soup, which he made from scratch. I still eat these things to this day, and when I do, I always think of him.

    Being a Marine, my dad had that way about him, and is how he approached things and life, so our shoes, or “Brogans” as he called em, had to be on point, as well as our clothes, and we had to maintain nice haircuts. My sisters, same deal just in feminine form, and he had the next door neighbor’s daughter do their hair every night so they looked nice for school the next day, as well as helped them get their school dresses together etc.

    We missed mom and was glad to see her back home, but I for one had a ball when my dad was running things. But then, from the time that I could pretty much do things for myself, I was kinda always in my daddy’s shadow.

    O

    Like


  263. This is why it’s important to marry the right person (I learned the hard way). Unfortunately, women are better at fooling men, and I think this is one of the biggest reasons guys get suckered so much more often than women do.

    Welmer you are absolutely correct. I believe it was Tom Leykis who warned men about their girlfriends “auditioning” for the role. That the “cool chick” you think you are marrying, may not be so.

    Like


  264. The point is, virtually everyone who’s had a divorce will form a mental image of the other person that is pretty much comprised of the most unflattering aspects of their personalities.

    omw —

    Maybe. My ex and I are close friends, so we have a very positive image of each other, and remind each other of that. But I agree that in most situations it’s … less even and less flattering as well.

    Like


  265. The problem is that Marriage 1.0 sucks for beta males as well since it assigns them sexless women that are incapable of loving them, and who only stay due to having few options. ~ David Alexander

    The thing is Marriage 1.0 was a very different society. In marriage 1.0 there was no sex outside marriage, none of that modern sexual chemical attachment to pump-and-dump players. In Marriage 1.0 their friends were not encouraging each other to divorce, and as a means denigrate the wife’s spouse. There are many other changes but it seems Marriage 1.0 fostered much greater love between the spouses than our current live sleep around in college, date and fornicate, live together for two years, courthouse marriage society.

    Like


  266. This is why it’s important to marry the right person (I learned the hard way). Unfortunately, women are better at fooling men, and I think this is one of the biggest reasons guys get suckered so much more often than women do.

    Welmer —

    My impression, too. Although I do agree that there are scummy men, in my own personal observation, good men are more likely to be fooled than good women are. Probably because young men are still taught women are more moral and better than men are — as young women are.

    Like


  267. on May 15, 2009 at 6:12 pm HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO

    @doug1
    “No it is not.

    First of all women virtually always get child custody. With that comes huge transfer payments from her ex husband that will amount to about 40-45% of his after tax income if he’s a professional level earning man. As I illustrated a week or so ago to Tood, if both spouses earned the same 100K before tax and child support=alimony transfer payments, that would result in her getting something like $115 after tax and him $55k.

    Gender neutral my ass.

    Further, it’s hardly gender neutral to ignore the fact that women by and large continue to want to marry up (in status and income), and men to marry younger and pretty and down some (or a lot) is fine.

    All of that is fine. What isn’t fine is the co-ercise power of the state in divorce.

    Men still essentially can’t believe, and are utterly shocked, that a wife can massively cheat, and still kick him out of the house he entirely paid for and still is, take more than half his money including all her legal expenses and maintenance during the pendency of the divorce, and tax him hugely for two decades into the future.

    If men commit adultery their wives can economically punish them for it enormously. And often do.

    If women commit adultery they can STILL economically punish their ex husband for their own transgressions enormously, which they’re very likely to do, since when women cheat and fall in love with a lover, unlike men they usually stop having any interest in sex with their husband and THEMSELVES want to leave the relationship.”

    Excellent post, feministx needs to fall off a cliff and die if she can honestly cling to the beyond retarded belief that marriage and divorce laws are “gender neutral”. But I think she’s a puton troll here to try and inflame people. There’s no way somebody could actually be that god damn retarded.

    Like


  268. “What you are is a completely artificially constructed persona, that you make up as you go along.

    I know for sure you’re not really bi-sexual, as opposed to a man hating lesbian.”

    How do you know this?

    Like


  269. omw: you were married to DA?! (meow, hiss, uncalled for, I’m still not deleting it, daym, it must be as irresistable as doug finds it to pick on feminist.)

    doug: Sex. You. Problem?

    Does not compute.

    Like


  270. on May 15, 2009 at 6:14 pm Gunslingergregi

    I do have to say I was one lucky sob I guess. Most of my angst about marriage comes from watching my dad who was made to leave with just the clothes on his back and his van. I did get my ex to agree last the last 3 years since I had told her to leave were not shit shortly after she said it. She attempted the start of demonization. I cut that shit out. She also gave me some compliments right before I came over here after being seperated for a while.

    We used to hang out at a resteraunt for hours playing cards and talking and laughing. Shit is crazy. I needed to be rich. I suppose after I make it could just swoop her again no problem.

    She did cheat at end though and I didn’t. When my sister told me she was cheating on me. I was like no in a dismissive way not defensive but no as in it never entered my mind as possible. I really thought it wasn’t possible.

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  271. Maybe. My ex and I are close friends, so we have a very positive image of each other, and remind each other of that. But I agree that in most situations it’s … less even and less flattering as well.

    My brother jokes about this.

    “So I called Dad, and he bitched about what a lazy money grubbing bitch Mom is.”

    Me: “pretty much how it always goes…”

    Him: “And then I called Mom, and she gently reminded me that we’re the products of a hypocritical lying slob.”

    Me: “yeah, par for the course.”

    Him: “I’m just not sure they’ve actually met each other.”

    Like


  272. “Excellent post, feministx needs to fall off a cliff and die if she can honestly cling to the beyond retarded belief that marriage and divorce laws are “gender neutral”. But I think she’s a puton troll here to try and inflame people. There’s no way somebody could actually be that god damn retarded.”

    You people believe what you want. In this thread, I have stated that I thought child custody was awarded on an unfair basis and that I did not care if alimony was discontinued.

    Like


  273. Now is Hope going to say something similar about her ex?

    I doubt it.

    Divorced women very rarely do.

    What you’ve written about your ex is about normal for most long-term relationships and marriages. Friendship. Rapport. Some good times, and some bad times. I did write that my ex-husband was loving, and we were also very good friends, as you described you were with your ex.

    The thing is, I was fearful of leaving him. I stayed with him because the alternative was difficult. Always had been. I’d tried to leave him for many years, even before I married him.

    There had been cops involved at several different points during our relationship. That’s not really “normal.” For years I’d defended him, against all those people who questioned my age when we met. When he went to trial for domestic abuse, I testified that nothing happened, that everything was alright. I got the lawyer to help seal and expunge that off his records.

    Now, having been a long-time reader of this blog and agreeing with many of the premises, I tried as much as I could to stay with him and be a good wife. When I initiated the divorce, I also consciously tried not to be one of those “bad” ex-wives who is after all the assets and money, etc.

    I suppose, today, I just needed to vent, because he’s been writing vicious, terrible things about me on a website we both frequent, where he knows I can read them. I’m feeling “vilified,” and I suppose I wanted to set the record straight, at least in my own mind.

    Like


  274. @anony – maybe Marriage 1.0 was not all that. Women and men have always cheated, but women are better at hiding it. Does anyone remember that study from a Los Angeles hospital in the ’40s – relevant to this week’s MPT thread – in which babies were tested against their fathers’ blood (this was blood type, not DNA) and something like 10% of the babies could not have been the stated fathers’. There must be a link out there – it’s pretty well known.

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  275. maybe Marriage 1.0 was not all that. Women and men have always cheated, but women are better at hiding it. Does anyone remember that study from a Los Angeles hospital in the ’40s – relevant to this week’s MPT thread – in which babies were tested against their fathers’ blood (this was blood type, not DNA) and something like 10% of the babies could not have been the stated fathers’. There must be a link out there – it’s pretty well known.

    Yes, but if it was discovered there would be a consequence. Today there is none. I mean we can push for mandatory PT, and I think we have a good shot at that one, but we also have enemies who will oppose it. The current framework, leaving aside PT, downright encourages cuckolding. The old one had it, too, but there were consequences if discovered. Not today — today a woman is sexually free to take her seed from whom she will, regardless of marital status.

    Of course men screw around, too. That is not to be rewarded either. But the new bit has to do with women. And one is tempted to say — well then that is equal. But it is not — because no woman will ever be forced to raise her husband’s kids by another woman against her will. That is a risk that only men bear. And it is an activity that is treated today as if it is equal to male adultery, in risk, which it is not.

    Like


  276. Anyway, speaking of the disgustingly saccharine nature of the current church, one wonders why there is no serious “market” for more hardline patriarchal interpretations.

    Those churches are out there, and growing, but only because they have so many more kids than anyone else. They don’t seem to attract a lot of converts.

    No apparent attraction to the average guy on the street, y’know?

    Like


  277. Anyway, speaking of the disgustingly saccharine nature of the current church, one wonders why there is no serious “market” for more hardline patriarchal interpretations.

    Those churches are out there, and growing, but only because they have so many more kids than anyone else. They don’t seem to attract a lot of converts.

    No apparent attraction to the average guy on the street, y’know?

    Maybe.

    I left to go East, crossed the Bosphorus and so on. It was slightly better there, but still very imbalanced. I have never been inclined to try protestantism, really.

    Like


  278. David Alexander

    There are no trains or blogs in prison…

    No hugs and no porn either. Of course you will probably get sex with an Alpha.

    Like


  279. I mean we can push for mandatory PT, and I think we have a good shot at that one, but we also have enemies who will oppose it.

    I think it’d be worth pursuing and lobbying, if the argument is for the “health of the baby.” That is, the purpose is to determine what genetic or health risk factors may exist for the child. It would be an argument for mandatory maternity and paternity testing.

    Having recently been pregnant, the OB/GYNs do a battery of tests on pregnant women. I was tested for various STDS including AIDS, and this is a mandatory law where I live — not sure if it is a federal mandate, but it is at least a state law. This is to ensure the health of the baby.

    Just frame it as an issue that is not oriented towards cuckolded men specifically, and more oriented towards health and a gender-neutral issue — I’m sure a lot of women would support this.

    Like


  280. Well, mainline Protestantism is no better, in terms of acting like a man. LOL.

    You’d have to find a really weird little country church; something like the one Michael Pearl runs.

    I hear there are dissenting traditionalist Catholic congregations out there, too. (though, ok, if you think the Pope isn’t really the Pope, then you probably aren’t a Catholic, right?)

    Like


  281. Just frame it as an issue that is not oriented towards cuckolded men specifically, and more oriented towards health and a gender-neutral issue — I’m sure a lot of women would support this.

    Probably practical, but isn’t it sad that we have to resort to subterfuge?

    Like


  282. I hear there are dissenting traditionalist Catholic congregations out there, too. (though, ok, if you think the Pope isn’t really the Pope, then you probably aren’t a Catholic, right?)

    Yeah there is one here, but I crossed that bridge when I joined the Orthodox Church. If you’re going to diss the pope, may as well do it properly, ahem.

    If I ever go back to church it will be to the OC.

    Like


  283. FeministX (whatever sex he/she/it is) gets the prize for the most willfully stupid comment of the day.

    Of course men prefer younger and prettier women, with greater fertility, because even if a man is uninterested in children, younger and prettier women are sexier.

    Sean Penn is having sex with Natalie Portman, not Beth Ditto. When a man who can have almost any woman, over and over again chooses the younger, hotter model, it takes willful blindness not see it.

    Women delude themselves constantly that a few aging harpies with IVF and designer eugenic yuppie babies can have kids after half a million dollars of fertility treatments. Or that aging, gristly like harpies like Madonna can use their money to “buy” some young hot stud. Please.

    Older women are not worth much of anything on the sexual/romantic market. They just aren’t. They’re worth even LESS than a beta male.

    Most women, if they delay childbirth, won’t have kids at all. They’ll end up alone and with cats as a substitute for a family. Or what have you. It’s like Doris Lessing’s “Children of Men.”

    As delusional as men can be about what really drives women, women can be just as deluded. Just as foolish and stupid.

    Like


  284. Probably practical, but isn’t it sad that we have to resort to subterfuge?

    Practicality means that rather than taking on the 400 pound gorilla by your bare hands and likely being mauled to death, you use a bit more finesse.

    I’m a big fan of open honesty and the truth. Everyone involved should know that the testing is taking place and get access to the results. The truth ought to be exposed to the light of day.

    Emotionally, it may be an uncomfortable fact for us women to know that young and pretty girls are fascinating to men. But it is certainly a fact most self-aware individuals are keen on, and no amount of self-delusion can remove this truth. It is what it is.

    At the same time, the feelings of love and intense sexual bonding is another biological truth. This is no more a feel-good statement than the previous statement on the male biological imperative. The difference is that sometimes people choose to focus more on the “negative” truth than the “positive” truth. That way leads to the same dark spiral that took me a long time to climb out of…

    Like


  285. ask yourself: why do you think this is?

    Answer:

    Women want to reserve the right to cuckold.

    Like


  286. Practicality means that rather than taking on the 400 pound gorilla by your bare hands and likely being mauled to death, you use a bit more finesse.

    Okay it is a fair practical point. I will take that on my lobbying travels. Thanks for it.

    Like


  287. Hope:

    I think it’d be worth pursuing and lobbying, if the argument is for the “health of the baby.” That is, the purpose is to determine what genetic or health risk factors may exist for the child. It would be an argument for mandatory maternity and paternity testing.

    If I recall correctly, the testing to establish paternity involves different techniques (which don’t get out much specific genetic info) than testing for health-related factors. It would be a weak argument to make, indeed, and I don’t think anyone will buy ‘we need to find out who the father is, every single time, to see if they’ll turn out health-wise like him’. Because the only information you reap from a paternity test is that; everything else has to be specifically tested for. If the argument is based on testing specifically for certain genes, then disclosure of the results may become effectively an issue: why do you have to tell them about paternity/maternity when you’re checking for health things? So it then becomes a seperate debate whether you make it mandatory or opt-out that they are disclosed.

    The state can always make the ‘we need to know who the right person to get child support from/refer to when something child-related happens’ argument. And that is fair enough.

    Like


  288. omw: you were married to DA?! (meow, hiss, uncalled for, I’m still not deleting it, daym, it must be as irresistable as doug finds it to pick on feminist.)

    lol. Yeah, he and DA had more in common that I’d like to admit to myself. He used to drive me nuts complaining that he missed his chance to go to college, when there was a college five miles down the road.

    But it wasn’t the “Right” college, not the big state school he imagined.

    In that line, I always felt like I wasn’t the “Right” girl, and that he resented me a little for it.

    You know? I just can’t be the big impressive state school that all your friends partied at; I’m the quirky little college down the road.

    I can’t make you love me.😀

    Like


  289. ask yourself: why do you think this is?

    My answer:

    For women, the welfare of babies > welfare of evil patriarchal men. It’s very hard to make for feminist-oriented viewpoint to see anything as Oppressing Men. Not every woman wants to cuckold, that’s silly. The figures are still at ‘Most Women Do Not Want to Cuckold’.

    Like


  290. Bhetti

    The state can always make the ‘we need to know who the right person to get child support from/refer to when something child-related happens’ argument. And that is fair enough.

    Bah, you beat me to the punch.

    Like


  291. Oh, shoot, me and Welmer suggested the same thing. Universe collapses.

    Like


  292. Bhetti–

    doug: Sex. You. Problem?

    Does not compute.

    It got to the point where I had to prove that to myself once again Bhetti. It really did. Among other things. Just need.

    We got back from the honeymoon and it was like someone had flipped a light switch. First she had four to six months of depression. Turned out that had always been an issue but she’d hid that from me. Then some things never got back to whether they’d been and been going. Yeah those things.

    She’d been an extremely good girl especially for a non orthodox Jewish girl, though I wasn’t looking for that. Instead when we first met we clicked emotionally just immediately. We realized we’d been talking for hours at the party where we did, and that we felt immediately like we’d known each other forever. She just blossomed with me sexually before marriage. Joy and heat. Sky seemed to be the limit. I should have dated her longer before we married. It was in many ways a good time for me to get married and I moved too quickly. (Think the equivalent of about to start your internship, only older.)

    Then that light switch. Tried all sorts of things. Therapy of course. Anti depressants, though it took years before she’d try them. She had diet theories. She did also have rad feminist attitudes toward sexuality (McKinnon/Dworkin), it turned out. She’d also hidden that from me. Maybe she just had an extremely low sex drive, but had gone into a marriage panic that made her briefly highly sexually energized until she became married to a catch and secure.

    Really did try a lot. There’s lots I could say but not here. But to be honest, after a while, a long while, it’s hard to keep trying a lot.

    Hence I cheated. Not for a long time but finally. She discovered it.

    It devastated her because she knew there were deep reasons there that she simply wouldn’t / couldn’t address. She couldn’t talk about it or think about it. She alternated between needing me enormously to comfort her, and stone cold ignoring me. Then she visited her parents over Xmas and never came back to me.

    It was right that we got divorced. Given no kids, I should have divorced her on my own bat a lot earlier. Thing is, when I really commit I tend to be very loyal.

    There. Lots of soul bearing. Probably not smart.

    Like


  293. Welmer: Well, you put it better.

    Like


  294. Not in public at least😛

    Like


  295. ask yourself: why do you think this is?

    The short of it, according to this blog: feminism, systematic subjugation of the male, divorce theft, and women are inherently immoral. Am I passing the test?

    This is my own view on the subject matter.

    There is a lot of the “blame the victim” mentality throughout different human societies at different times. Humans are simply attracted to the strong, the beautiful, the confident, the charismatic and the willful, which overwhelmingly includes those who are able to pass on their genes.

    A cuckolded man is in essence displaying his great weakness, that his so-called mate thinks his genetic material is of such little worth that she would rather cuckold him than breed with him. That is something often people in general do not take easy pity to, much like the way most people ignore the homeless bum on the street — until, of course, they themselves end up in the same position.

    It’s like the way a lot of rape kits remain dormant in many testing sites. The victims are not easily identified as they are all anonymous, and with such a level of impersonal barrier, people simply do not care. This happens most significantly in large cities. It is not that the people involved lack any moral fiber, but that simply most individuals does not have the capacity to care so much for so many others.

    The human animal is not meant to live in such large population groups. Dunbar’s number is significantly lower than the number of people living in modern towns and cities. Nation-states are simply too large to fit human morality. Humans are most moral when they live in small villages of genetic-closeness.

    Societies approach entropy the larger and more heterogeneous they become. That the modern nation-states have not degenerated into civil war after civil war already is a testament to how malleable and adaptable the human animal truly is. Moral decline and interpersonal alienation are the trade offs for our modern luxuries and technologies.

    All modern systems of government and bodies of laws will have this issue to contend with — we have not yet evolved beyond our tribal, primitive mental states. It has simply not been long enough.

    Like


  296. Marriage is hard. Particularly if you marry the wrong person. Or for the wrong reasons.

    This isn’t news, of course. But it’s easy to overlook it.😦

    Like


  297. Women play the game for keeps. If they have an advantage they use it- mercilessly. They’re not about to give up the advantage of beta exploitation via cuckoldry for the sake and benefit of MEN- let alone the very beta men that they’re wired to despise.

    A woman’s compassionate nature does not extend to weak men that they’ve judged unfit to breed. Don’t expect their sympathy or understanding on this issue.

    Like


  298. Bhetti

    Not every woman wants to cuckold, that’s silly. The figures are still at ‘Most Women Do Not Want to Cuckold’.

    Not many women get married thinking they want to, that’s certainly true, even in the decadent and getting worse big city Anglosphere.

    Even fewer young girls at the peak of their dating market value have that as their marriage ambition. The number of young women who do I think closely approaches zero.

    Six years or a bit more into marriage things sometimes change. This is partly biology being unmasked by a newly and on any mass basis uniquely permissive culture (as opposed to among a tiny aristocratic elite or low down lowlife mess). This is partly direct cultural suggestion as to what liberated and empowered Anglosphere women deserve and should seek out if they have anything on the ball.

    Still it you read cheating wife blogs you will see that they rarely consciously think they’re trying to get preggers by someone not their husband. However they may be careless about it and even guiltily thrilled and a twitter about it. These subconscious urges may be big and consequential.

    Like


  299. Bhetti–

    Easily the most misattributed paternity however occurs down the socioeconomic scale, not high up it, and especially not among young London doctors, Muslim or not.

    Like


  300. on May 15, 2009 at 7:25 pm Sonny Crockett

    doug1
    “It was a metaphor dumbo.”

    Nope, not a metaphor.
    This “fem” pisses standing up.
    “Her” name is Tim and he also does engine work on BMW’s.

    feministx
    “I for sure know that I am not a tranny. So absurd.”

    Right, right, I know, tran-sexual implies that you changed sexes, you were ALWAYS a woman, just stuck inside a man’s body. Got it.

    Racer X:
    “feministx, Racer X would love to fuck you in the ass. And you will love it. Mmmm…”

    Most gay guys do.

    feministx:
    “Racer X, yes you’ve always understood me.”

    And let the sword fighting begin.

    Like


  301. I’m terrified that I’d do that to who I’d end up with. I’m also terrified he’d do it to me. Not DA-like enough to not risk it.

    Clarification: terrified I’d freeze, hate intimacy with him and become genuinely disinterested out of nowhere. And vice versa.

    Like


  302. “Right, right, I know, tran-sexual implies that you changed sexes, you were ALWAYS a woman, just stuck inside a man’s body. Got it.”

    Can anyone actually explain why I am thought to be male or transexual or a lesbian or a butch or anything else that I claim not to be?

    Like


  303. It is the weekend. Time for some music.

    Regarding heroes: There are none (anymore)

    Like


  304. Bhetti–

    I’ve gotten wiser and better at reading people, especially girls, since then Bhetti.

    I’m terrified that I’d do that to who I’d end up with. I’m also terrified he’d do it to me.

    There’s not the slightest chance of the first. I haven’t been kidding when I’ve called you a corked volcano.

    Just barely corked.

    You’re in no ‘maybe getting too old to get married to someone good’ panic. You’re in frustrated torture that your beliefs won’t allow you to have sex, NOW, with the kind of man you’ve become crystal about wanting.

    Before you had confusion about what kinds of men it might be, and how many men were so disappointing. Now reading here you feel clarity about that, and hunger

    So no Bhetti, no lightswitch issues on your part for you. I’d stake my life on that.

    As for the second, BIG CHANCE. That’s what you have to be concerned about. We can talk about that. We should.

    Like


  305. fem: ignore it. Dislike of your persona = lots of low-evidence conspiracy theories. People do that a lot on the Internet.

    It’s as funny as anything when you satirically go along with it. Er, for personal amusement, anyway.

    Like


  306. Don’t let them tell you country and western guys don’t got game.

    …I’ve got seven women on my mind,
    Four that wanna own me,
    Two that wanna stone me,
    One says she’s a friend of mine…

    Have a great weekend and take it easy.

    Like


  307. Bhetti

    Do not reveal personal details.

    Yesterday I get castigated for being too mysterious, which you claimed to NOT like, unlike some other things.

    This evening you warn me to not give personal details. Or any more of them I guess.

    Jeeesh.

    Thin line is what I have to walk, it is.

    Like


  308. Bhetti–

    Meanwhile, that word I crave, that innocent little word, THAT I can’t get to save my life.

    Even though you know I crave it.

    Hell, probably mostly because you DO know I crave it.

    Well OK, maybe it’s mostly because I told others I crave it, and you have to get all embarrassed about that.

    But hey, that was all good. People thought it was cute and all, and that you were. (In a way it’s adorable that that embarrassed you.)

    But oh, no. Punishing me you are.

    Great. Just great.

    Like


  309. Guys, before you you head out to the clubs remember you are the Gamemaster

    Sara I and Hope:
    You can
    skip straight to the OSHA/rainbows and unicorns stuff at 3:44 if you prefer.
    [if the above link works, otherwise just skip forward in the video]
    :)

    Like


  310. Oh wait….

    Bliss.

    Like


  311. doug: which is why you should let the alpha out, just ignore my conflicting desires of protecting you/myself versus fulfilling my intense curiosity, and do what the heck you want…

    But you already knew that😉

    Def: You’re ever so thoughtful, you are, but the first video is not available in my country. I have found an alternative version but thanks for the background music.

    Like


  312. doug: I’m actually in real life blushing.

    Like


  313. Just for sara I😉

    Rockstar game

    Like


  314. Def: You did explanatory mouseover text for Sara/Hope too?! That’s thoughtfulness.

    doug: Just for doing that to me, I’m going to call all this begging beta. HA! *withholds the word ‘trouble’ as revenge weapon, inciting female-gender hatred* I just don’t know what happened to my doug. It happens to the best of them.

    Like


  315. As we can see rock stars do not need much game:

    Hey girl would you like some wine?
    What’s your name are you by yourself?
    Are you the one, what’s your sign, can I take you home?

    [lyrics to Rainbow All Night Long]

    Like


  316. Guys, before you you head out to the clubs remember you are the Gamemaster

    Interesting coincidence. I was listening to that whole CD by Paul Oakenfold, thanks to the amazing man I mentioned earlier. That particular segment is something I liked quite a bit.

    I’ve been having a lot of interesting coincidences like this since I met him.

    One of the coincidences (and there are many) is that he wears a gem pendant. It looks exactly like the one that a character on this anime show I watched as a little girl wore. The exact same color and shade, down to the very shade and proportions.

    I had remembered the pendant after all these years because it had such a profound effect on me when I was younger. I looked it up on Google to verify that it wasn’t just my imagination. He said that originally he was interested in another one, but somehow ended up going with the one he chose out of impulse.

    Another interesting coincidence that happened to me recently, concerning Kamal S. on this blog. Incidentally, that afternoon, my friend from high school had also talked to the man with the pendant.

    http://kali-yuga.org/?p=231&cpage=1#comment-19

    Like


  317. Bhetti: You did explanatory mouseover text for Sara/Hope too?! That’s thoughtfulness.

    Except it did not work (video just plays from start).

    Sorry about the first vid. di not consider blocking by country. In any case, The Stranglers were British. Likely came and went before you were born.:)

    Like


  318. “It’s as funny as anything when you satirically go along with it. Er, for personal amusement, anyway.”

    I may as well. Especially with the tranny-entity thing. I mean, I identify myself as a queer identified with diverse tastes in sexual partners. Insulting me as a “tranny” etc. over my sexual fluidity is kind of like insulting a gay person by calling him a fag.

    -femx, resident manhating transbutch lesbian.

    Like


  319. Happened to a real life acquaintance: British guy walks into an American store, asks them if he can have some fags.

    He gets thrown out and is never allowed in again. He only figures out what happened halfway home.

    Like


  320. This is my last entry.

    If you are wondering about my humor: Am I wry? No!

    Like


  321. no. if the children are 18, the ex-wife deserves nothing. she can find a job on her own.

    This is where you go off the rails. She has forgone opportunities and given the man a benefit (children) at his behest and needs to be compensated. Basic justice.

    Like


  322. Am I Wry: I really had to stop there to figure out if the singer was a man.

    Like


  323. This is where you go off the rails. She has forgone opportunities and given the man a benefit (children) at his behest and needs to be compensated. Basic justice.

    But NOT if she cheats or leaves unilaterally.

    It’s the same as if you are an employee. You spend your time and get your dime. If you quit = no severance. If you are fired = severance. Same idea. Don’t go bonking the pool boy, leave your husband, and get alimony — that is an absurd injustice.

    Like


  324. Hope

    Glad you enjoyed the musical interlude [and the rainbows and unicorns:) ].

    Glad to hear about your new man. Don’t forget to send him here. It would be a shame to lose him because he had poor game😉

    Have a great weekend full of happy coincidence.

    PS If you want to learn how to e-flirt, watch Bhetti.
    [I have a special musical request coming up just for her and doug1]

    Like


  325. Def: Not surprised. The best laid schemes of mice and urls 404 oft today.

    Like


  326. doug1, Bhetti

    For you two lovebirds:

    Have a great weekend all.

    Like


  327. Bhetti

    I really had to stop there to figure out if the singer was a man.

    But he is a rockstar, so that does not matter. Rockstar game trumps all.

    Like


  328. Except for Rod Stewart.

    Like


  329. Well Well Well………………………WELL!

    Another gigantic thread because we are getting to the heart of the matter.

    Does anyone else see why Im interested in the FUTURE of Artificial womb research (that has already birthed some animals in labs!)

    Question of you men out there:

    Would you (MEN) be better have having your two kids via a lab if you are a successful unmarried 35 year old, and letting your mom and siblings (and babysitters or child care at your job) watch them until they start school, or RISKING YOUR ASS FINANCIALLY VIA OUR “family” COURTS?

    Please keep the ladies responses about how they resist paternity testing and think our divorce laws are just great they way they are in mind………

    ANSWERS GENTLEMEN???????????????????????????

    I think we all know you guys would like to have that option wouldn’t you? That way you could get married if you ever came across “Ms. Right”, but you could still have children to love and enjoy if all you meet are selfish fucking cunts you pump and dump. If you did marry, and she turned out to be screwing the guy down the street………………..she couldn’t take YOUR kids from you, or get any child support from you, because they’d be YOURS. Does this deal look a little better to you guys if you think about your sitution from a perspective of a man in his 30’s or 40’s (or hell 50’s or 60’s).??????? I think so.

    Japan is gonna do it anyway…………………..in about a decade if one researcher is right

    Like


  330. Def: Oh, poor Rod. Not only his daughter, but an unexpected rejection from sara too.

    Don’t bring up the L WORD! *DEAD FAINT* (I feel like I’m violating copyright, but it’s mighty convenient) Even the attraction stretches credulity, because I don’t even know how he looks or sounds like or even his ethnicity. He’s the stranger in the dark, with the gloves and the mask…

    and, wait, what was my point again?

    Like


  331. Pupu

    Pupu has no idea how much it usually costs to raise a pre-college child. Even though “a few thousand bucks … in monthly child support payments” sound high, it is not unreasonable to assume that some additional financial support is necessary for a mother to raise her child alone.

    Raising kids isn’t really that expensive, but it’s the time that really gets you. If they are little, i.e. under six or seven, the time commitment is enormous. You have to dress them, bathe them, keep an eye on them constantly, feed them, take them with you to the store, etc.

    You have to intervene in their constant disputes (if there is more than one child), you have to comfort them when they are upset, you have to give them positive reinforcement, discipline them when they are naughty, read to them, teach them how to do things properly, etc. It really is more than a full time job. I know this because I’ve put more effort into raising my children than my ex for the last two years (she dumped them on her mother during her time with them so she could fool around, like your typical ghetto/trailerpark trash).

    These days women don’t find such a job fulfilling, and a lot of them simply walk out of marriage because of that. They think they can foist their children off on others and take their husband’s money, and they’re often correct in that assumption. If they had their way, they’d be flirting with men online all day (like omw) rather than taking care of their children and running a household. The poor little things are just too tender to be mothers, and there are plenty of horny men out there just aching for some young pussy who will reinforce their opinion.

    In my neighborhood, which is rather diverse, one of the problems we have is young women who take their children to the library and leave them there for hours so they can spend time getting their nails done or visiting their paramours. I can’t even go to the library and read in peace, because there are so many little kids running around screaming. The babymommas have effectively turned the librarians into their free babysitters.

    So when a guy pays child support, there’s a good chance the ex is spending the money on shoes, getting her nails done, going out with one of her boyfriends, etc. I have no problem with a guy supporting his kids, but why don’t they make child support like WIC (Women with Infants and Children), where you can only spend the money on food for the kids? Why can the government call women to account, but not the guy who is handing them a check “for the kids?”

    Like


  332. I would hate to think some of the trauma 24/7 exposure to me may result in the children.

    ‘Mummy, I want to have a go on doug jr’s toy monster trucks.’

    ‘My lovely daughter, rethink this decision carefully. You are selecting a non-conventional gender role, which will result in mental agony throughout your life and a sense of superiority over men which will make you hate your brother as well as most men in the future. It is of course, up to you, but realise you will die alone.’

    ‘…’

    ‘Come, I know! I have fun skin cancers I want to teach you about! Can you say malignant melanoma, sweetie?’

    Like


  333. Welmer —

    It’s the dregs of patriarchy.

    We need a system that empowers men to be fathers, as well as women to be mothers. And “empowers” is the key word. It isn’t about a slap-happy bullshit sociology professor’s bullshit views. It’s about what works. And what works is men and women raising kids together.

    No no fault divorce if there are kids. And if there are kids and a reason to divorce lean towards joint parenting other than in situations where mom or dad are addicts or abusers.

    This would go a long way.

    Like


  334. But NOT if she cheats or leaves unilaterally.

    Agreed. Only if there is fault by the man.

    Like


  335. Thursday

    no. if the children are 18, the ex-wife deserves nothing. she can find a job on her own.

    This is where you go off the rails. She has forgone opportunities and given the man a benefit (children) at his behest and needs to be compensated. Basic justice.

    No, not justice. Do you think men don’t forgo opportunities when they get married and have children? Do you think men all wanted to stay in that crappy job to keep the kids fed and clothed?

    Why doesn’t he get alimony? And how are the children any more the man’s than the woman’s benefit? Ridiculous assumption, there. You really have to accept that your ideal is considered just plain abnormal today, even if the divorcees and sexual veteran women here would be happy for you to keep up the illusion (it gives them great leverage when naive men go around expounding anachronistic, unrealistic ideals).

    You’ve never experienced marriage or children, so I’m not sure you understand. When you find your virgin and she bears your child, tell me after the kid is 18 that she pulled all the weight and you just lived as always and I might listen out of sheer disbelief. If you really think you can get your wife to manage everything as though you had no responsibilities besides work, then you will most definitely be disabused of that notion in an uncomfortable manner. Either you will have to shell out all of a high income (at least top 10% for men) to her to accept that, or she’ll demand a lot more work at home than you’re accustomed to. Chances are it will be both, and there’s a good chance your former virgin will try something new just because she was “deprived” when young.

    Like


  336. on May 15, 2009 at 9:22 pm ironrailsironweights

    What’s the most delicious thing in the world? this is.

    Peter

    Like


  337. BTW, Thursday, I had a nun suggest to me that it was my fault my wife cheated because I’d taken a part-time job to help raise the kids (at my ex-wife’s insistence), and therefore wasn’t being a good enough provider. She also suggested I bear the adultery patiently and let her do as she pleased while still living a chaste life and raising my kids.

    So much for Catholic morality. I haven’t gone to church since.

    Welmer, if only she’d closed it off with “… because you will go to heaven, while your wife will go to hell”.

    Like


  338. No, not justice. Do you think men don’t forgo opportunities when they get married and have children? Do you think men all wanted to stay in that crappy job to keep the kids fed and clothed?

    Why doesn’t he get alimony? And how are the children any more the man’s than the woman’s benefit? Ridiculous assumption, there. You really have to accept that your ideal is considered just plain abnormal today, even if the divorcees and sexual veteran women here would be happy for you to keep up the illusion (it gives them great leverage when naive men go around expounding anachronistic, unrealistic ideals).

    You’ve never experienced marriage or children, so I’m not sure you understand. When you find your virgin and she bears your child, tell me after the kid is 18 that she pulled all the weight and you just lived as always and I might listen out of sheer disbelief. If you really think you can get your wife to manage everything as though you had no responsibilities besides work, then you will most definitely be disabused of that notion in an uncomfortable manner. Either you will have to shell out all of a high income (at least top 10% for men) to her to accept that, or she’ll demand a lot more work at home than you’re accustomed to. Chances are it will be both, and there’s a good chance your former virgin will try something new just because she was “deprived” when young.

    Even better, Welmer.

    Listen folks. Men. Listen to some of us who have lived in this system. Don’t post speculative bullshit. Some of us have lived through this shit. Listen to us, and not the women who come in here. Listen to us. We know better, only because we have experienced this shit system that the women’s groups created to screw us.

    Like


  339. “It’s about what works. And what works is men and women raising kids together.”

    True, but the only way to get men and women to raise kids together is to have them married. And the only thing which promotes marriage is one religion or the other.

    At least with the Romans and in modernity, the decline of religion and the decline of marriage tend to go hand in hand. The decline in religion comes first. As it is the foundation, the edifice built upon it begins to become unstable. What is best is actually to just knock the rotting edifice down. Duct taping the thing is only going to prolong the destruction and delay the building of the new one.

    Like


  340. RJS and Kamal, props for the advice.

    Like


  341. This fellow has been paying alimony for the last 22 years for a marriage that barely lasted 10 years:

    http://www.divorce360.com/community/advice/view/1781/when-do-alimonymaintenancepayments-cease.aspx

    Like


  342. z: Would you (MEN) be better have having your two kids via a lab if you are a successful unmarried 35 year old, and letting your mom and siblings (and babysitters or child care at your job) watch them until they start school, or RISKING YOUR ASS FINANCIALLY VIA OUR “family” COURTS?

    This will be a game changer. “Incubator Prievilege” for the women will end very quickly after this.

    Combine artificial wombs with domestic-robots, and its done. The Age of Legal Parasitism will be over.

    Like


  343. So, as a purely hypothetical exercise, because we wouldn’t want to upend the marital-judicial complex, what would be the total cost of buying eggs of fine provenance; having a good lab fertilize them with oneself; paying a host mother to deliver the payload; and finally paying a nanny to take care of it for a number of years?

    Like


  344. Glengarry

    So, as a purely hypothetical exercise, because we wouldn’t want to upend the marital-judicial complex, what would be the total cost of buying eggs of fine provenance; having a good lab fertilize them with oneself; paying a host mother to deliver the payload; and finally paying a nanny to take care of it for a number of years?

    Answer:

    A whole lot less than marrying an American woman.

    Like


  345. Glengarry – Ricky Martin did precisely you are suggesting. Ok so he is not the most heterosexual of males, but there is no reason why freethinking hetero guys can’t do the same. No Heather McCarthy or Ms. Phil Collins for him.

    Like


  346. Guys,
    This Indian firm can deliver your baby turn-key for $25,000. That’s less than the cost of many middle-class Bridezilla weddings, let alone the ring, the honeymoon. That means you are already in the black straight out of the gates, even before Day 1 of your AW marriage.

    http://www.ivfsurrogacy.com/surrogacy.htm

    Like


  347. puma80

    Guys,
    This Indian firm can deliver your baby turn-key for $25,000. That’s less than the cost of many middle-class Bridezilla weddings, let alone the ring, the honeymoon. That means you are already in the black straight out of the gates, even before Day 1 of your AW marriage.

    http://www.ivfsurrogacy.com/surrogacy.htm

    Hmmm….

    Wanna go into business, puma?

    Like


  348. Would you (MEN) be better have having your two kids via a lab if you are a successful unmarried 35 year old, and letting your mom and siblings (and babysitters or child care at your job) watch them until they start school, or RISKING YOUR ASS FINANCIALLY VIA OUR “family” COURTS?

    Yeah, but why would your mom or siblings do that. Presumably thay would be working as well, or have their own children to raise. You would end paying a nanny to raise the kid(s), at no small expense, especially for a good one. Child care at your job? Most places don’t have that, unless your in Sweden (that hellhole!). Children are an expensive and time consuming endeavor, one way or another. I doubt most straight men really want to raise one by themselves.

    Like


  349. today’s zeitgeist

    Today’s zeitgeist is friendly to the feminist cause because it is economically useful. Cheaper labor supply means greater economic productivity. On average, nations in which the females also enter into the workforce have higher GDPs. The ease of divorce and breakdown of the family unit means greater allegiance and reliance on the economic unit of the day — the corporation, the government, or any other system which hires employees.

    So when a guy pays child support, there’s a good chance the ex is spending the money on shoes, getting her nails done, going out with one of her boyfriends, etc. why don’t they make child support like WIC (Women with Infants and Children), where you can only spend the money on food for the kids?

    Follow the trail of money. Where does it flow? Women are among the biggest drivers of the consumerist economy. Humans are status-oriented creatures. Women buy things to denote their higher status among their own peer groups, and they want high-status men. Men, in turn, buy things to denote their higher status to impress women and compete for status among male hierarchies. The ruling class wants the general population to keep doing this, but eventually they ran up against a wall when trying to increase profits each quarter. The solution? Give people access to easy credit.

    More propaganda advertising to make people unsatisfied with their lives and what they have. “Oh look your girlfriend / wife is ugly and getting old, so why don’t you trade up? Oh look your boyfriend / husband is not buying you that much, get him to buy you more stuff and make him work harder. You need more more more. Buy more stuff! Make more money! It’s the only path to true happiness.”

    Money and pleasure are the twin evils of modern society. People will lie many lies and commit many wrongs in the pursuit of money and pleasure. These have replaced religion and God. Indeed, money has the word God printed boldly across it (In God We Trust). Rampant consumerism and hedonism lead to those moral question marks that you decry. The interpersonal alienation and seclusion, moral decline and urban anonymity, they make people feel restless and unhappy, which stimulates the economy further because people want to buy more stuff — to make up for the emptiness they feel inside. There is no need to pin all the blame on its blind participants who have been indoctrinated and brainwashed into this system from birth.

    What do I know of indoctrination and brainwashing? I was raised in mainland China. I was thoroughly indoctrinated in Chinese propaganda as a child, and then immigrated to America to become indoctrinated in American propaganda. It is through these two sets of often times conflicting sets of value judgments about nations and cultures that I realized that both were full of poo poo. I specifically took courses on Tibet in college so that I can try to get some of that young “China is the best” brainwashing out of my head.

    The Chinese are overall a very intelligent people, but the officials have devised a systematic method of indoctrination which begins on small children and continues throughout people’s adolescent and adult lives. When I was a little kid growing up in China, the teachers would pat us on the backs for doing patriotic things and singing patriotic songs. History class was full of lessons on how magnificent the ancient Chinese were, and literature class was about studying great ancient poems and writings. TV programs for adults were also often about the imperial periods during which China was more powerful.

    The lessons are not subtle, but subtlety is not needed on small children. It is not unlike the Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy stories told to children in the west, only in China they never grow out of the idea that China is the most wonderful place — the “center” of the world (China: Zhong Guo; Zhong = center, Guo = country). After coming to America and studying nothing but western classics and western history, I realized that everyone engages in this behavior to an extent. In my ESL classes and in high school, I met and became friends with many immigrants from all over the world. Each and every last one of them, I could tell, was trying to hold onto some piece of national pride, but it was extremely difficult to do in the face of the very strong American nationalistic propaganda. America is very powerful indoctrination.

    The current cultural milieu in America is useful to the ruling class the same way that the cultural lessons that are taught in China are useful to its ruling class. They care not one bit for the sufferings of a few if they maintain the structure the way they envision it, with profit and power for themselves. This is the same kind of brainwashing being done with feminism/equality nowadays, and as much as it is not “good” for me to say it because it “benefits” me in many ways, this is what is being done to the masses.

    By way of closing, America is a large, diverse nation-state of extreme political tensions. Politics is not even a subject matter most people think about in China. A tiny percentage of the population will even begin to question the state and the status quo. So keep questioning your reality, and be skeptic of what you think you know and understand. Never be static.

    Like


  350. The powers of children:
    http://community.livejournal.com/obama_daily/223597.html

    Read the comments and understand why women being allowed to vote is just silly.

    Like


  351. Anonymous

    Yeah, but why would your mom or siblings do that. Presumably thay would be working as well, or have their own children to raise. You would end paying a nanny to raise the kid(s), at no small expense, especially for a good one. Child care at your job? Most places don’t have that, unless your in Sweden (that hellhole!). Children are an expensive and time consuming endeavor, one way or another. I doubt most straight men really want to raise one by themselves.

    Lots of guys’ moms would be thrilled to be grandmothers no matter what. As for nannies, if you are a well-heeled man and you need one you would spend a lot less on a full time nanny than a wife. Let’s say 24k/year for a middle aged immigrant woman (not a bad salary for them) to take care of your kid while you work, and you only need them full time for a few years. You could also save A LOT on housing without a wife. A man and a child or two would require only a two bedroom to be comfortable. That’s cheap.

    BTW, lots and lots of women demand full time nannies AND money from the husband.

    Like


  352. If you really think you can get your wife to manage everything as though you had no responsibilities besides work, then you will most definitely be disabused of that notion in an uncomfortable manner.

    Married men here are having a good LOL at that idea!

    Hands up anyone who has heard anything to the effect of, “When you get home from work, that’s when I get to rest!”

    You would end paying a nanny to raise the kid(s), at no small expense, especially for a good one.

    Nanny gonna cost you a lot less than a lifetime of alimony. =)

    Like


  353. Wellmer and Puma’s : Babies R’ US

    Well I guess they already trademarked the last part.😦

    But seriously, we can also provide 24/7 nannies to our customers after they get their baby delivery. Some nice Mexican ladies getting minimum wage should do the trick.

    Like


  354. I have no problem with a guy supporting his kids, but why don’t they make child support like WIC (Women with Infants and Children), where you can only spend the money on food for the kids?

    Well, sometimes you need to spend the money on rent or clothing for the children, so I’d argue for itemization. Using a WIC/Food Stamps program will end up creating a system where women just trade the money for cash. At minimum, monthly statements tracking spending habits should be sent to the child support paying parent to show how the money is being spent, an a system of appeals for men to lobby for reduced support if it’s illustrated that the money is going to waste.

    money on shoes, getting her nails done

    5 inch stilettos and acrylic nails, right?

    Like


  355. Hope

    Today’s zeitgeist is friendly to the feminist cause because it is economically useful. Cheaper labor supply means greater economic productivity. On average, nations in which the females also enter into the workforce have higher GDPs. The ease of divorce and breakdown of the family unit means greater allegiance and reliance on the economic unit of the day — the corporation, the government, or any other system which hires employees.

    Geez, Hope, I’d swear you’re reading the same stuff I am.

    The Chinese are overall a very intelligent people

    Ummm, well, you ought to go back and spend some time in the countryside. There was a scandal in Beijing when I lived there because country maids were putting babies in electric washing machines to bathe them, with tragic results as I’m sure you can imagine.

    History class was full of lessons on how magnificent the ancient Chinese were

    I am truly sorry you were misled by such cretins. I saw some of the propaganda at the Yuanmingyuan. Evil Westerners carrying away their treasure, etc. etc. Nothing gets the Chinese going like getting the short end of a deal, and being called savages, of course. Nothing upsets a Chinese more than plain talk.

    It is not unlike the Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy stories told to children in the west, only in China they never grow out of the idea that China is the most wonderful place — the “center” of the world (China: Zhong Guo; Zhong = center, Guo = country).

    Yes, the Middle Kingdom… Middle of what? A pile of nightsoil?

    Politics is not even a subject matter most people think about in China. A tiny percentage of the population will even begin to question the state and the status quo.

    Hope, don’t be frustrated by that. Most Chinese are incapable of questioning such things. They would do better to question the composition of the lump of nutrients at the end of their kuaizi at the local restaurant.

    hehe. Got you mad, didn’t I?

    I actually love Chinese culture, but I also love mocking the Chinese, because I can always get a good reaction out of them.

    Hey, did you ever watch that “sanguo yanyi” TV drama? I loved it. I always admired that Zhuge Liang fellow.

    Here’s a memorable (translated) quote from sanguo:

    A wife can be changed, like laundry, but friendship can never be replaced

    I really get into Chinese poetry, and especially enjoy hearing tunes played on the pipa:

    Sai Shang Qu — Tune on the north of the Great Wall

    Like


  356. oops, here’s Chinese music link again. It didn’t copy correctly.

    Like


  357. hope – how did a teenage chinese immigrant end up married to a failed ex-marine? this story gets stranger each time we get new info … but seriously, good that you’re happy…

    Like


  358. maurice

    hope – how did a teenage chinese immigrant end up married to a failed ex-marine? this story gets stranger each time we get new info … but seriously, good that you’re happy…

    For a young and attractive Chinese lady men are like the petals of a cherry blossom — they fall off one by one until she discovers the rich fruit in the middle.

    In the meanwhile, of course, her pot gets stirred with a stiff ladle and she lives a life of exquisite pleasure. It is very different when she must take on the role of matron, however.

    Like


  359. Lol. Too much.

    Like


  360. 20th anniversary of Tiananmen Square coming up in a few weeks. Look for many repetitions of the guy-blocking-the-tank clip.

    Seriously, that was the heaviest news weeked that i can recall in my lifetime. Tiananmen Square, Ayatollah dies, and Communists lose the elections in Poland, setting up the amazing fall of the Fall of Communism in Eastern Europe. All the same, like, Saturday. Off-point but it has been on my mind lately…

    Like


  361. Geez, Hope, I’d swear you’re reading the same stuff I am.

    I just read Reddit, Wikipedia and think about stuff on my own. I figured that my thoughts are not original though.

    Got you mad, didn’t I?

    LOL… nah, made me laugh.

    In many ways I’m very “internationalized” through the Internet and growing up around so many immigrants. I have a more America-centric viewpoint sometimes, and I admire a lot of western culture and thought.

    Actually a lot of Chinese people also admire western culture, particularly classical music. Russian literature was popular, and Japanese animations and films were everywhere. And this cracks me up — my older cousin apparently has all the episodes of Gossip Girl.

    Having rejected many parts of “my” culture, I’m finding that as I’m older I meet a lot of non-Chinese folks who know more about Chinese history and culture than I do. It’s a bit of an odd juxtaposition. While most people have only a generational cultural gap with their parents, the mental chasm between me and my parents is quite large.

    On the subject of surrogate motherhood, I think while it is fun to joke about — on both sides of the gender divide — about being completely independent for life, never relying on anyone else, deep down there is still a strong yearning for real intimacy, bonding and trust with a solid family.

    It is of course not all sunshine and roses to be living in a close family unit — I grew up in such an environment, three generations living in one household. My cousin and I, under the age of 10, would help out in the kitchen, help change the coals in the stove in the winter, shop for groceries, and walk by ourselves to school. I do marvel at how much attention and money are lavished on children in America. I thought I was spoiled.

    Like


  362. hope – how did a teenage chinese immigrant end up married to a failed ex-marine? this story gets stranger each time we get new info … but seriously, good that you’re happy…

    It’s not strange to me. Then again, I guess I am a strange person. I was a very rebellious child. I grew up on the Internet, and I met all kinds of men who seemed to not mind that a weird little precocious 15 year old girl wanted to know more about the world. This was back in the late 90s.

    He is not an ex-marine, but went to the marines boot camp and left. I knew soon after meeting him in person that he was wrong for me. We fought a lot, and I did not trust him at all — looking back on it, I guess I had good reason to not. I stayed because I was a crazy little weirdo with a low self-esteem, and I thought that there was no way that I could ever find love again.

    But oh, love exists. It certainly does.

    20th anniversary of Tiananmen Square coming up in a few weeks.

    Funny that. I probably would not be here had it not been for Tiananmen Square. My parents were in the U.S. then with student visas in medical school, and after that incident they were granted green cards. My mom mentioned it to me a few times in that context, but I get the feeling that she still deeply loves “her country.”

    Like


  363. on May 15, 2009 at 11:40 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Hope, that was the best, most insightful and intelligent post by a female I’ve ever read on this blog.

    Like


  364. Hope

    I do marvel at how much attention and money are lavished on children in America. I thought I was spoiled.

    Hah! I have never seen brattier children than the Chinese single-child policy terrors at sanyuanqiao KFC (kendeji) with their grandparents.

    They would run up to me and stare me right in my face, and then run off with my corn on the cob! Shameless little punks. Everybody but me thought it was funny when they did this.

    Sometimes I’d see them stop on the sidewalk, pull down their pants and take a dump (they had convenient snap-on patches on the back of their britches for just this purpose). They’d even brazenly smile as they did so. Yes, I’ll admit that even I chuckled at such cheekiness, but it isn’t so amusing when you accidentally step in these little “gifts.”

    Like


  365. Hah! I have never seen brattier children than the Chinese single-child policy

    Ah, yes. Times have changed, and I haven’t been back in over ten years. I was raised by an older generation that essentially raised kids by letting them run free. When I was growing up, I either walked or was taken places on the back of a bike. These days I hear cars are everywhere.

    Sometimes I’d see them stop on the sidewalk, pull down their pants and take a dump (they had convenient snap-on patches on the back of their britches for just this purpose).

    The guy I know was in Ghana, Africa for a 14-month stint, and he tells me that even the adult women there would pee standing up in the dirt. It’s pretty different from the sanitary-obsessed west, that’s for sure. I remember how I lived as a little kid, and if I had to live that way now there would probably be quite an adjustment period.

    Like


  366. on May 15, 2009 at 11:58 pm Comment_Whatever

    Hope, I wonder, does China have informal ‘arranged marriages’?

    I understand Feministx is having trouble manipulating men because her mother, and her grandmother, ect. didn’t have to learn how to date/flirt/look for a husband because they were forced into arranged marriages. Her mother and grandmother had never dated nor sought a husband, how could they teach her how to do it?

    Well they couldn’t. This has spiraled a little out of control, but that’s the point of failure.

    Ironically, the keenness with which she is aware of severe female oppression makes FeministX a more vocal feminist while practically making her far less harmful than the typical spoiled brat feminist. Her unconscious looks at mild wrongs and thinks ‘this isn’t that bad’ whatever her head may tell her.

    Then you have LILGRL, who despite being a worse choice as a wife than FeministX, attracts many men here and leads them around by the nose. Cause her mother taught her how to date/flirt/look for a husband.

    And yeah, guys, I know there is nothing better than an Attention Whore, Exhibitionist, with a liberal arts degree, and who is also a Japanese Princess/American Princess.
    She could also be a feminist to. A spoiled one.

    She might also play the game: Let’s You And Him Fight.

    Oh. My. God.😀

    But she didn’t like say she hated men or anything so she must be a great person! Or maybe she just knows how to say what you want to hear!

    Anyway, Hope, if China had a culture where women were completely, or at least severly, limited in marriage options, that could have effected you in the same way. I don’t know much about China at that time.

    Or maybe the kids in your high school were just mean to the foreign girl.

    I’m really curious if it’s the profound explanation or the banal explanation. Or neither. Maybe just you were young.

    Well, Hope, can you make sense of my incoherent post or not?

    Like


  367. on May 16, 2009 at 12:00 am Comment_Whatever

    Wrong smiley. Smileys, line up! Where’s bug-eye?

    :-) smiley face (humour)
    :-)) laugh
    (-: left handed smiley
    😉 wink (light sarcasm)
    😐 indifference
    :-> devilish grin (heavy sarcasm)
    😎 big-eyed smiley
    😀 shock or surprise
    :-/ perplexed
    😦 sad
    :-C real unhappy
    😛 wry smile
    ;-} leer
    ;-( crying
    :-* kiss
    :-X big wet kiss
    :-e disappointment
    :-@ scream
    :-O yell
    >;-> A very lewd remark was just made
    :-& Tongue tied
    :-{} wears lipstick
    O:-) Angel smiley
    :-Q Smoking smiley
    :-[ Vampire smiley

    Like


  368. on May 16, 2009 at 12:02 am Comment_Whatever

    Bug-eyed smiely didn’t show up for roll-call.

    Someone is being a slacker.

    Like


  369. You’re OK, Hope. But you’d be better if you were an art chick. The Chinese artists were really beautiful people compared to the greasy businessmen and status-mongering professionals.

    I probably would not be here had it not been for Tiananmen Square. My parents were in the U.S. then with student visas in medical school, and after that incident they were granted green cards. My mom mentioned it to me a few times in that context, but I get the feeling that she still deeply loves “her country.”

    You can’t blame her for that. It is not too hard to fall in love with China if you have a romantic bone in your body. I always thought China had a lot in common with France, where I lived for some time as a boy.

    BTW, some of my friends were in the middle of the Tiananmen Massacre. One was a nurse who treated the wounded, and she openly told me in front of plenty of others about how awful it was. Most avoided the subject. Even I was nervous to hear about it.

    Like


  370. Ironically, the keenness with which she is aware of severe female oppression makes FeministX a more vocal feminist while practically making her far less harmful than the typical spoiled brat feminist. Her unconscious looks at mild wrongs and thinks ‘this isn’t that bad’ whatever her head may tell her.

    Then you have LILGRL, who despite being a worse choice as a wife than FeministX, attracts many men here and leads them around by the nose. Cause her mother taught her how to date/flirt/look for a husband.

    And yeah, guys, I know there is nothing better than an Attention Whore, Exhibitionist, with a liberal arts degree, and who is also a Japanese Princess/American Princess.
    She could also be a feminist to. A spoiled one.

    If this were a forum, this should be stickied.

    Like


  371. “Youth is an indication of repro health. Prettiness is not. Given the small family size people want and the possibility for fertility treatment, prettiness has zero value outside itself.”

    Not true — prettiness has tremendous value as it signifies good genes. For example, if you take head shots of average people and average athletes, who do you think will look better?

    Yes, prettiness signifies physical prowess, but these are somewhat correlated and IQ is not far behind, at least not genetically. I’d venture to say that prettier people are smarter. Also, it’s well know that prettier people earn more money, and have higher class. All these are tied together ofc.

    Like


  372. Modern feminists are THE most hypocritical group on Earth. Bar none.

    Anyone who thinks a woman deserves alimony has, by definition, admitted that women are inferior. Period. It is incompatible to claim women are equal, while still thinking alimony is fair.

    Like


  373. Some nice Mexican ladies getting minimum wage should do the trick.

    The same Mexican women that some PUAs don’t want in the country for fears of poor assimilation, low IQ and high breeding rates, elevated crime levels, and subterfuge of wages for native born working class of all races?

    In that line, I always felt like I wasn’t the “Right” girl, and that he resented me a little for it.

    Ah yes, the secret reason I probably won’t have sex with non-date. The fact that she isn’t the “right” girl, and that she isn’t the high IQ woman who will deliver high IQ babies with my last name that will go to an Ivy League school and make my last name immortal. If non-date were to become pregnant and not get an abortion, I’d be stuck with her and the kid for the next eighteen years of my life, and I’m afraid of how he or she would turn out given the genetic stock of the parents…

    But it wasn’t the “Right” college, not the big state school he imagined.

    With the exception of one semester at the engineering school, I have always commuted to college. I never really had an interest in going to dorms since there’s little privacy and comfort, and the food is questionable.

    Like


  374. David Alexander

    5 inch stilettos and acrylic nails, right?

    OK, now I’m starting to see where your fetish came from. Couldn’t take your eyes off the tramps in the neighborhood when you were a boy, could you?

    Don’t worry, I understand. All too well…

    Like


  375. The Indian firm that can give you a kid (with a donor egg) for $25,000 is good. That is the cost of having a nanny for 1 year.

    Two kids for $50,000. Hire a nanny to help out = $30,000 a year. No problemo. Still cheaper than the expected value of a divorce.

    Like


  376. on May 16, 2009 at 2:12 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Anonymous: “As a young Catholic man who takes my faith seriously I fully intend on getting married. I’m a virgin by choice in my twenties, and not for lack of opportunities…”

    Oh you mean you’re gay, like the others who hide behind Catholicism to disguse their sexuality.

    Like


  377. OK, now I’m starting to see where your fetish came from. Couldn’t take your eyes off the tramps in the neighborhood when you were a boy, could you?

    Don’t worry, I understand. All too well…

    You must admit, that while they’re not exactly the ideal for a long-term relationship or to bring home to meet mom and dad, these girls scream fuck me now in a way that their non-trashy counterparts don’t. Of course, these girls tend to be even more insistent on alphas and less cautious (and thus a STD/pregnancy risk). Mind you, there’s always been that part of me that dreams of the unlikely combination of one these girls with the intellect of Wellesley Queen, and the warm heart of another close female friend…

    Like


  378. Modern marriage is a disaster – parasitic feminists have bled men dry, and conservatives, with their empty sermonizing about ‘duty’ and ‘sanctity of marriage’ are such a total failure that they infuriate me almost as much as the feminists. Why do they think their sermonizing, in the face of the law, is anything more than a pea-shooter against steel?

    It is quite a viable strategy for a man to :

    1) Go to India, get 2 kids for $100,000 (it is not $35K per kid, Puma80, as the man has to pay for IVF + Egg Donor + Surrogacy). Still, that is cheap. Get 1 boy and 1 girl, ideally.
    2) If your siblings or your parents are willing to help you take care of the kids until age 6-7, you can save money. If not, get a nanny for $25K a year, and be done with it. The nanny will be the necessary ‘motherly influence’ that the child needs.
    3) All this is far cheaper than a wife, with the nagging, shopping, and divorce risk. Even if you do marry later on, since the kids were yours before marriage, she cannot take them from you, and thus cannot get child support.
    4) You won’t need more than a 3 BR/2BA, 1500 sq. foot place. A townhouse can suffice.
    5) Keep gaming women. Contrary to popular wisdom, I don’t think it is wrong for your kids aged 10-18 to see their father gaming multiple women. If anything, it will be necessary preparation for their own adult lives, for both your son and daughter.

    There. All cheaper than a divorce.

    Like


  379. I forgot to add that Nanny expenses can be pre-tax, in some circumstances. It does not have to be after-tax income.

    Like


  380. “Not true — prettiness has tremendous value as it signifies good genes. For example, if you take head shots of average people and average athletes, who do you think will look better?

    Yes, prettiness signifies physical prowess, but these are somewhat correlated and IQ is not far behind, at least not genetically. I’d venture to say that prettier people are smarter. Also, it’s well know that prettier people earn more money, and have higher class. All these are tied together ofc.”

    It does not have “tremendous” value. It has very marginal value in modern society in reproductive terms. The people reproducing the most are the lowest IQ blacks in the ghettos. These people are also probably the least attractive and least healthy.

    As for prettiness correlating with positive attributes, well health, success, IQ all correlate and some kinds of attractiveness probably do as well. Depends on what kind of hot- Jennifer Connolly hot is a smart type of hot. Kendra Wilkinson fake boobs, fake blond, fake tan kind of hot is a dumb kind of hot.

    But hoping that a pretty woman will have other correlated attributes is never as effective as just going for a positive attribute directly. One could be like DA and pursue a woman for IQ. I think it would be logical to pursue a woman for her character directly. Even if what you want is some feminine submissive domestic traditional girl- makes more sense to pursue someone with that personality directly and not worry about looks.

    But sense is out the window in the world of attraction. We all think with the wrong head on this one. Men want pretty. Women want alpha.

    Like


  381. Tood:

    i’d rather get cuckolded, ass raped, and chewed up by leech lawyers and judges than move to india…stop advertising your abysmal sub-continent. nooody wants to move there, and curry is disgusting.

    Like


  382. “It is quite a viable strategy for a man to :

    1) Go to India, get 2 kids for $100,000 (it is not $35K per kid, Puma80, as the man has to pay for IVF + Egg Donor + Surrogacy). Still, that is cheap. Get 1 boy and 1 girl, ideally.
    2) If your siblings or your parents are willing to help you take care of the kids until age 6-7, you can save money. If not, get a nanny for $25K a year, and be done with it. The nanny will be the necessary ‘motherly influence’ that the child needs.
    3) All this is far cheaper than a wife, with the nagging, shopping, and divorce risk. Even if you do marry later on, since the kids were yours before marriage, she cannot take them from you, and thus cannot get child support.
    4) You won’t need more than a 3 BR/2BA, 1500 sq. foot place. A townhouse can suffice.
    5) Keep gaming women. Contrary to popular wisdom, I don’t think it is wrong for your kids aged 10-18 to see their father gaming multiple women. If anything, it will be necessary preparation for their own adult lives, for both your son and daughter.

    There. All cheaper than a divorce.

    That’s still expensive. What a dude should really do is this-

    1) convert to Islam
    2) Do whatever the fuck you want to women and children.

    Like


  383. Under the Indian IVF + Donor Egg + Surrogacy plan I outlined above, if the cost of a nanny irks you, remember that you can always invite your elderly parents to come live with you. If one is dead and only one is remaining, it makes even more sense.

    Nothing is perfect – not everyone wants their widowed mother with them. But if she helps watch your kid, then that is great. The generational bonding of grandparent-grandchild is also valuable.

    Like


  384. Chuckie the butt-fuckie wrote :

    “Tood:

    i’d rather get cuckolded, ass raped, and chewed up by leech lawyers and judges than move to india…stop advertising your abysmal sub-continent. nooody wants to move there, and curry is disgusting.”

    You don’t have to MOVE to India, you dumbass. You just have to go there for the IVF treatment, as Puma80 suggests.

    Many people DO move there, you ignorant buttshit.

    Plus, we have already established that you know absolutely ZERO about the world. You are an SWPL lesser Beta, you know.

    Who said you HAVE to eat curry? Do you even know what ‘curry’ is?

    Like


  385. CK,
    Sorry, not buying your proposal; the question we’re considering is whether prettier gals are smarter, and to determine that, we’d need some objective measure to *show* they are indeed smarter to begin with, right? So, Mensa, a group known for its documented membership of high IQ, and the Ivys, schools which again are known for their high IQ students, should be excellent places to begin.

    I’m suggesting to you CK, that smarts, on average, are the *last* thing on a guy’s mind when it comes to fucking, and in some cases, even longterm pair bonding. And I think you know as much as I do, that the chances of routinely running into a Beyonce’ or Prejean at Brown or Harvard or Mensa are quite small.

    As for your thing about guys, its well known that for the most part, brainy guys don’t get laid. If that weren’t true, Game wouldn’t be needed-a quick visit to any bootcamp quickly reveals a gaggle of geeky guys in attendance. Although I do think he is motivated by personal factors, I also do think that Rushton is on to something when he said, it all comes down to a tradeoff-big brain, or big dick? Can’t get both.
    And if female sexual selection has anything to say about it, we know who they tend to choose.

    O

    Like


  386. Here’s something for the folks who want to go live in India:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=aErNiP_V4RLc&pid=20601109

    India Failing to Control Open Defecation Blunts Nation’s Growth
    By Jason Gale

    March 4 (Bloomberg) — Until May 2007, Meera Devi rose before dawn each day and walked a half mile to a vegetable patch outside the village of Kachpura to find a secluded place.

    Dodging leering men and stick-wielding farmers and avoiding spots that her neighbors had soiled, the mother of three pulled up her sari and defecated with the Taj Mahal in plain view.

    With that act, she added to the estimated 100,000 tons of human excrement that Indians leave each day in fields of potatoes, carrots and spinach, on banks that line rivers used for drinking and bathing and along roads jammed with scooters, trucks and pedestrians. Devi looks back on her routine with pain and embarrassment.

    “As a woman, I would have to check where the males were going to the toilet and then go in a different direction,” says Devi, 37, standing outside her one-room mud-brick home. “We used to avoid the daytimes, but if we were really pressured, we would have to go any time of the day, even if it was raining. During the harvest season, people would have sticks in the fields. If somebody had to go, people would beat them up or chase them.”

    In the shadow of its new suburbs, torrid growth and 300- ­million-plus-strong middle class, India is struggling with a sanitation emergency. From the stream in Devi’s village to the nation’s holiest river, the Ganges, 75 percent of the country’s surface water is contaminated by human and agricultural waste and industrial effluent. Everyone in Indian cities is at risk of consuming human feces, if they’re not already, the Ministry of Urban Development concluded in September.

    Like


  387. doug:

    Oh wait….

    Bliss.

    Typical! Man gets what he wants, man leaves.

    I’ve watched so many relatives just get hung up over that one man and lose their life over him, for they shall never love or be with anyone again. What’s the point? The ‘one man for me’ seems to be genetic, though, which is regrettable.

    While they’re maintaining the perfect home for the grand total of lonely one, he’s out enjoying himself with chick no. 304.

    maurice: We’ll be together 4-ever.

    Like


  388. Tarl,
    Excellent post and point raised, and I too have been following the “Slumlord Millionaire” problem in India for some time now myself. It is quite serious, and there doesn’t seem to be much urgency on the part of the powers that be over there to address. Poverty is rife over there to such a degree that is unfathomable here.

    As for the general discussion here, as always seems to be the case, some of my brothers are making this thing to be a lot more complicated than it needs to be. The solutions are simple:

    1. LEARN GAME. For the same amount of money to buy a sixpack of beer or a few double lattes at a trendy coffehouse cafe, you can get hold of the Mystery Method and The Game, study what they have to say, apply it and have many of your problems solved. I speak from experience, although I didn’t need Game per se in order to be successful with Women. But the added and expanded perspectives I learned about Women from reading those two books did indeed make all the difference in the world.
    2. Have a Plan B in case you get married or find yourself in a LTR and/or have kids w/a Woman(Women). Have a way that you can go off the grid if you need to. If you have a bit of money, how d you protect it? Same deal w/assests. A few really good posts have been entered here that goes into some of the nuts and bolts along those lines, take and save them on your PC just in case.

    3. Don’t get married. Let’s be honest, both marriage, and by extension, fatherhood, are purely optional now. If one is brutally honest about things, they’ll admit this. And if they’re really brave, they’ll admit that both are huge risks for Men in our time. Unless you have some way of vouchsafing these things, its best to avoid them if possible. If you have kids w/a Woman, make sure your paper is protected.

    But perhaps the only real safeguard you have out there is Game. It really makes the difference between the guys who make out alright and do well, and those who get chumped in life. For such a small price, why wouldn’t you learn it? And I don’t mean being the next Mystery here, I mean just having moderate skills. Keeping a Woman deeply, hopelessly in love w/you, pledging herself to you and meeting her needs for a MAN in her life is probably the best line of defence against a lot of what we see.

    All the other stuff I’m hearing, surrogate moms, etc, is almost as bad, moneywise, as getting married then divorced, lol. For what, $30, if that, you can learn some essential truths about yourself and Women, and live a much happier life.

    O

    Like


  389. If what you want is not to be responsible for supporting women and to not have to treat them differently from men, then Islam’s not for you. Tood, treating them differently does not mean saying they’re inferior (much like a silly argument about whose job needs more skills or is more worthy: the doctor or the teacher, when they have different roles and compensations but they are both respected and needed) but it’s also true that it does not fit at all and is hypocriticial regarding the principles of an equalist climate.

    Also, regarding the ‘that won’t happen to you if you like betas’ argument for chick no. 304, yes it would. It would just be Gigabyte 304 in DA’s case. How much is under our control, and how much is luck?

    Like


  390. Okay, he gets Alpha of the Month…and then he gets a hearty “Here’s Your Sign!” for coming back.

    Like


  391. I know a couple that was worth about $400k and she went totally nutzo on him after he started banging a co-worker. She got a lawyer to “get every penny” and she was so proud of the vengeful “justice” that she was going to get by uncovering his affair – he also looked at titties on the web. In the state they reside, fiances are (initial) custodial are often mixed in the same agreement so it got legally complex. After the legal and taxes, he ended up netting about $100k and she’s under collection (she bought an expensive car in anticipation of getting a bunch of money) and now has to declare bankrupcy. They both probably could have walked away with $180k her and her lawyer weren’t ass-hats. So her lawyer walked away with ~$150k while costing her $180k and costing him $80k. What’s worse is that even with child support, she can’t support the kids and they all live in a studio apartment when it’s her turn to have the kids. He’s now trying to get her joint physical custody revoked until the kids have a bed to sleep on.

    After discovering the affair the better solution would be for this vapid cow cunt to step up efforts to eat his cum. She could have gotten implants to sooth his titty fetish (which is quite normal). And she could accept and encourage the primal polygamist urges that all high-status men have by understanding that he will have sex with any other hot woman that he can find unless she happens to have drained his balls that day. She’d still be in house and her kids would be happy.

    Like


  392. Wakey Wakey

    Like


  393. FemX,
    Glad to see you back, and will take up your response in the next post. For now though I wanted you to know that I aw your most recent post on your blog and decided to follow the link over to Science Blogs to see for myself what was going on; I was appalled, to put it mildly. I tried posting my comments and for some reason wouldn’t go thru, same deal w/your site. So, since I know you frequent this venue, attached are my would-be comments to SB:

    “I’m coming a bit late to the dance, but it seems to me that FemX’s points, however crude, are largely accurate-Aboriginal Women aren’t particularly physically attractive. Now, does that mean that they are evil or somehow less than human, etc? Absolutely not. But it IS to say, that they aren’t pretty. Sorry, but such is life, errbody can’t be pretty.

    I know FemX and consider her to be a bit out to lunch on a number of things, but on this I feel compelled to come to her defence-and for the record I’m Black (Male), and have had some actually interesting words w/FemX about Black-Indian racial issues wrt her mating choices. A very nice exchange, in fact.

    Aside from the seeming inability/refusal to accept objective evidence, particularly in a venue that purports scientific inquiry, I must also add that I am somewhat taken aback by the sheer kneejerky response by many of the obstensibly feminist voices here-last time I heard, people had the right to voice their opinions, however crude or even offensive we may personally find them to be. As many of you consider yourselves academics and scientists, ask yourself, which is better-fostering open dialogue w/an eye toward helping our opponents seeing the error of their ways, or banishing them and curtailing all discussion? For me, the answer to said question is obvious-one is clearly a hallmark of the Academy-the other the hallmark of Anti-Intellectual write large.

    The Obsidian”

    More in a minute…

    Like


  394. Obs, certain comments get moderated on sciencewoman’s site. I am not sure why but on my site, there shouldn’t be a problem although sometimes it takes more than one try to post a comment.

    I want to make sure others don’t have this problem. What happens when you try to post a comment on my site?

    Like


  395. on May 16, 2009 at 10:15 am Default User

    Bhetti

    Did you like song by The Stranglers? Had you heard it before (I am guessing the Punk era had passed before you hit your teens)?

    Have you watched Life on Mars of the sort-of-sequel Ashes to Ashes? Both feature music from their respective eras (1970s and 1980s).

    If you have seen either, isn’t Gene Hunt the ultimate Alpha?

    “Gene Hunt smashes doors down he does not pick girlie locks.”

    Like


  396. on May 16, 2009 at 10:28 am Default User

    Hope

    Thanks for the interesting posts. I have not much to say except that can sort-of identify with the misfit rebel child thing.

    Your more recent posts seem more thoughtful and less poetic than some of the earlier ones I have seen. Does that mean that the new man is getting the benefit of your romantic/poetic side, while we get your thoughtful side?
    [I have no problems with that, by the way]

    Like


  397. “It occurs to me that a great deal of the HBD debates/issues are in many ways clever proxies for other issues-scapegoats-for why Whites encounter many of the problems they do. I’ve discussed some of them before, and will be happy to do so again if you’re so inclined.”

    I’d love to hear it, please.

    HBD blogs are sometimes an excuse to promote racism, sometimes an excuse to promote incredibly strange theories as though they are based in science (ala whiskey), often an excuse for high IQ people to ‘prove’ that society is wrong to undervalue them. The best HBD blogs are the ones that get the least traffic. They are just blogs with data on them.

    Like


  398. FemX,
    I’m not surprised in the least to hear that Sciencewoman is a site that moderates its posts. Seems to go w/the territory w/Feminism, which I consider to be largely anti-intellectual, I might add. And I should hope that you never pickup the habit of moderating posts.

    When it comes to your site, I’ve noticed that in general, Blogger doesn’t seem to like the interface my computer is using. So, until I get around to getting a new one, I guess I won’t be posting on any such hosted blog.

    O

    Like


  399. my question has always been-if so and so is so smart, why can’t they get laid? It seems to me, THAT is the problem, not Joe 80 and Sally 83 making whoopee.

    It’s not about getting laid as much as letting pregnancy happen.

    Myself, being 100+ in IQ — and having banged a decent number of girls in my single days, all of whom were 100+ IQ — I always took the procaution of either taking a girls’ word that she’s on a pill, or pulling out. (I was never a rubber-man)

    In other words, no unplanned pregnancies for me, guys like me, and the girls we banged, all of whom were of similar profile. Though I had two of “I’m late” scares.

    On the other hand, if I were an 80 IQ guy, the girls I’d have been banging would also have been around the same level of intelligence. Except that those girls would not have been on a pill, and I wouldn’t have bothered to pull out, strap one on, or ask them if they’re on the pill.

    Obsidian — is the above question a taunt along the lines of “why can’t you white guys get Amy and Courtney to open their legs for you?”

    If so, I’ll turn that around. You are clearly a very intellignet guy. And you have no children. So why aren’t you getting the Sistahs to open their legs for you?

    Like


  400. FemX,
    Wrt HBD: let’s take the whole Black-White IQ difference deal. As you well know, a heck of a lot of handwringing is given to this issue, but what you never actually hear is, “now what?”. In other words, OK, let’s say that all that is true, Black folks simply ain’t as bright as Whites-well, what do we do about it? I mean, you’re talking about a USA population of some 40 million Black folks. What is to be done with them?

    Well, to let the vast majority of HBD boosters, *nothing*-it seems their whole reasoning for boosting for HBD in the first place is to get rid of all those Darkies who are taking White folks rightful spots in colleges, job contracts, etc.

    W/the notable exception of Sailer, and perhaps to an extent Murray, no one else seems to give a damn about the *real* public policy implications about their HBD positions in this regard.

    This is important, because per Sailer, whether they like it or not, Black folks are American citizens, and as such have a right to be looked out for, *particularly* if they have an innate inability to do so. But for many HBDers, like say, Brand, Black folk aren’t Americans, and never will be. Kinda reminds me of how France does its Black folk, and to a lesser extent, the UK.

    And they then have the nerve to say that folk like me are “obsessed” by Race? Huh?!?

    I see the HBD thing in this regard as something of a sham, since anyone w/half a brain (which would include most Black folk, right?) can easily see that the biggest beneficiaries of AA were and ARE, White Women. Ahh, but HBDers ain’t too keen to deal with that one don’t you know, and after what happened to Summers, can you blame em? Besides, these folk, these White Women, well, they family, and the HBDers are trying to get laid. So, we’ll all do the wink and nod thing, actually believing the lie that Leroy and Rashid are taking all of Brett and Josh’s jobs and college slots, instead of Amy and Heather.

    That’s what I mean, FemX.

    Holla back, and we’ll talk more.

    O

    Like


  401. PA

    my question has always been-if so and so is so smart, why can’t they get laid? It seems to me, THAT is the problem, not Joe 80 and Sally 83 making whoopee.

    It’s not about getting laid as much as letting pregnancy happen.

    Myself, being 100+ in IQ — and having banged a decent number of girls in my single days, all of whom were 100+ IQ — I always took the procaution of either taking a girls’ word that she’s on a pill, or pulling out. (I was never a rubber-man)

    In other words, no unplanned pregnancies for me, guys like me, and the girls we banged, all of whom were of similar profile. Though I had two of “I’m late” scares.

    On the other hand, if I were an 80 IQ guy, the girls I’d have been banging would also have been around the same level of intelligence. Except that those girls would not have been on a pill, and I wouldn’t have bothered to pull out, strap one on, or ask them if they’re on the pill.

    Obsidian — is the above question a taunt along the lines of “why can’t you white guys get Amy and Courtney to open their legs for you?”

    If so, I’ll turn that around. You are clearly a very intellignet guy. And you have no children. So why aren’t you getting the Sistahs to open their legs for you?

    So you banged a lot of 100+ IQ girls in the food rationing lines back in Poland? Did any broads bang you if you gave them a loaf of bread?

    Like


  402. Pidgeon – funny guy. Most of the girls I slept with were American, being that I came to the US in my teens.

    As I remember the Martial Law in Poland, everyone had loaves of bread and more. It’s just that you didn’t get it at a store, but from relatives out in the country — something everyone had — and off the black market.

    As long as you didn’t get stopped at a military checkpoint, or if you were, you could talk/bribe your way out of it, you ate like a king. Good times.

    Like


  403. Obs,

    I have heard a lot of impossible policies advocated based on the idea that there are race-IQ differences that are innate and immutable.

    This is what I wrote about it-

    http://feministx.blogspot.com/2009/05/if-iq-genes-vary-in-frequency-across.html

    Like Steve Sailer, I believe we should strive for colorblind policies in everything.

    In educational terms though, blacks and hispanics are the chief recipient of AA, not women.

    The thing about HBD is that people pick their poison- non asian minorities or women. Old school racism partially sought support on the grounds that blacks could be violent and lustful towards the white women if whites quit keeping the blacks at bay through segregation. Racists wanted to feel they were protecting their innocent lovely white girls from rape. I think this is why so many HBD advocates are not sexist. In fact they are rather sympathetic to victimology feminism- the idea that women are raped and abused right and left.

    On this site, we see people that seem to believe in HBD but dislike women more than minorities, so they express beliefs about bringing back patriarchy or forcing women into monogamous relationships, ending sexual freedom etc.

    Like


  404. Pidgeon,
    Hello, I don’t believe we’ve ever met. Thanks for the response.

    To answer, first off, the argument about the right/wrong people mating/having/making babies was never my argument to make. So in many ways, what I do or don’t do is irrelevant, and as this is a venue devoted to Game, you’ll please note the very conspicuous absence of Brothas in attendance at bootcamps and the like. Believe me, we don’t have any problem at all getting Rashidah and Shaniqua to bend over, crack a smile, and go half on a baby with us.😉

    So, it comes back to my original question, as those bootcamps clearly underscore-WHY CAN’T THE SMART GUYS GET LAID? And as you made the distinction between pregnancy and sex, which is correct, let’s put the onus on the latter then, shall we? If the Game bootcamps, and what we know about HBD studies are any indication, the answer should be clear-because Women, who barring rape decides who gets some and who doesn’t, have pretty much decided that a Man with an IQ past a certain point aint really that hot. And, we can pretty much say the same thing on the Male side, too-I wonder how much action the female Brown or Cornell Valedictorians were getting from the fellas, or were the cheerleaders getting it? To ask the question is to ask it.

    So again, the focus is in the wrong direction, seems to me, and to be honest, one can detect just a weebit of hateration too in the voices of those who scream the loudest on this issue-they need to figure out why they can’t get no action and fix it fast. Pussy starved Men do weird things, especially when they’re pretty bright.

    Lastly, I want to address your assumption about supposedly lower IQ folk. There’s a very good book Promises I Can’t Keep, you need to read that book. Its about low income (and thus, one could argue, low IQ) Black, White and Hispanic Women from parts of Philly and Camden, who chose-CHOSE-to have babies, in spite of all the challenges they faced. The idea that some folk are just too stupid to know what the pill is or how condoms work is a silly one in itself. Many Women want to make babies, and many Men want to give em babies. Now, you can argue the rightness or wrongness of those decisions till you’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t change the fact that, A, they knew exactly what they were doing, and B, smart guys still can’t get laid.

    To say nothing about replicating themselves.

    Something the Obsidian has no trouble doing. Trust me.

    Your serve…

    O

    Like


  405. Racists wanted to feel they were protecting their innocent lovely white girls from rape

    Surely you as a feminist can address the concept of protecting women from rape in a less mocking language.

    Like


  406. CORRECTION: my post should have been addressed to PA, not Pidgeon. My bad, man.

    FemX,
    W/all due respect I have to disagree; the Hispanic presence on American campuses is near zero, and there are clearly more White Women than Black folk. I stand by what I said, White Women get over on the strength of AA than ANYONE ELSE, and lots of White guys know this, its just like I said, its a family, read, Race thing, and, its a pussy thing. I can dig it, but then we need to call it for what it is, because though we Darkies may not be Mensas, we aint too slow on the uptake either.

    I’ll checkout your link in a sec…

    O

    Like


  407. Pidgeon + Obsidian,
    Obsidian is so right about why welfare class girls want to have babies. It makes them important. They matter.

    Like


  408. “Surely you as a feminist can address the concept of protecting women from rape in a less mocking language.”

    I feel no feminist obligation to show respect to racist motivations for rape protection. It isn’t about women for them. It’s about some homoerotic male fantasy about virile powerful blacks and their effects on fragile white women.

    “all due respect I have to disagree; the Hispanic presence on American campuses is near zero, and there are clearly more White Women than Black folk. I stand by what I said, White Women get over on the strength of AA than ANYONE ELSE, and lots of White guys know this, its just like I said, its a family, read, Race thing, and, its a pussy thing. I can dig it, but then we need to call it for what it is, because though we Darkies may not be Mensas, we aint too slow on the uptake either.”

    Women in most colleges, graduate schools and professional schools have about the same GPA and standardized test scores as their male peers. They are not there because of AA unless it is a highly quantitative field.

    But your response shows again that people tend to choose between minorities and women. This contrasts the typical liberal assumption that liberals are both non racist and non sexist while conservatives are racist and sexist. You say women are the most privileged by AA. Some others would say blacks are. Some have even said that Obama lets sexism in his administration slide because he feels that feminists steal the thunder of the real oppressed group- blacks.

    Like


  409. Tood –
    You are right that the (ivf+surrigacy+egg+travel/adoption) costs will run up to about $50,000 total for having a child. That is still lower than the cost of your average middle class marriage package including courting+engagement ring+wedding+honeymoon.

    This cost assumes you’ve selected the egg from some high-end outfit like this:

    http://www.beverlyhillseggdonation.com/?gclid=CIvO1beewZoCFRINDQodzy4lrA

    I believe you can get some celebrity/olympian grade egg for $10,000. They will ice-pack ship it to your Indian IVF+Surrigate company for you.

    Like


  410. FemX,
    Assuming what you said wrt Obama is correct, the historical record is on his side-Blacks trump anything Women can come up with in terms of being oppressed. It should go without saying at this point.

    As for GPAs and the like-youre recent treatment at the hands of your “sisters” over at Sciencewoman says it all. These are Women who do not belong in those spots, because they clearly lack the wherewithall to do the work. They can’t even take a blog comment, made by a another Woman, w/o going off the deepend-just like the Women who were in attendance at Summer’s talk. They may get the GPA scores, but as we both know, it takes a bit more to have the kinds of fitness to do certain kinds of work, especially of the hard sciences type. When it comes to that Hispanics are a ghost and Black folks are a real rarity. So that only leaves White Women, who again catch an AA break.

    And don’t even get me started on Title IX, or on the job stuff too, like I said, most Whites have more to fear in losing their job or promotion to Amy or Heather, that Leroy or Rashid.

    And I stand by that.

    O

    Like


  411. Jerrdogg

    And she could accept and encourage the primal polygamist urges that all high-status men have by understanding that he will have sex with any other hot woman that he can find unless she happens to have drained his balls that day.

    Well said. Which is why it’s important early on in a relationship to let the girl know your plans to fuck around a bit. Sometimes that concept has to be broached slowly. My current GF at first was freaked by the idea, but now accepts it. I started by telling her that I would “travel”, and made it clear that travel was a euphemism for travel and find girls. Three weeks after meeting her she’s no so in love as to agree that we can get a 2nd girl live in, and also wouldn’t raise any fuss if I occasionally rented hotel rooms for variety action. And of course my other GF, given no option at all, has accepted my “travelling”.

    Lay the rules early. Girls will muss and fuss, and even bring things to a critical point. But they rarely actually leave if you stand your ground. And can fuck like a demon.

    Like


  412. Anony,
    Yup, you nailed it. And, you ever notice how, when someone asks why the brainy guys can’t get laid, all manner of changing the subject happens? Fascinating.

    O

    Like


  413. My submission for alpha of the month. He’s looking really hot but also unreliable, responding in a 4:1 ratio. Will have to wait for him to grow out of it but no doubts he’ll eventually take over the world.

    Like


  414. Bhetti–

    Typical! Man gets what he wants, man leaves.

    I’ve watched so many relatives just get hung up over that one man and lose their life over him, for they shall never love or be with anyone again. What’s the point? The ‘one man for me’ seems to be genetic, though, which is regrettable.

    While they’re maintaining the perfect home for the grand total of lonely one, he’s out enjoying himself with chick no. 304.

    Oh Bhetti, Bhetti.

    Such a needy, hungry girl.

    You can’t escape me now. It is too late.

    A man has things to do, and places to go, at certain times, ya know, ya know?

    What will I do with you, my fasting torrid one?

    Like


  415. on May 16, 2009 at 1:06 pm Marcus Aureliette

    Thursday:
    This is where you go off the rails. She has forgone opportunities and given the man a benefit (children) at his behest and needs to be compensated. Basic justice.

    nova:
    But NOT if she cheats or leaves unilaterally.

    Well, of COURSE not! Has anyone here argued that a cheating woman/one who bails on the marriage whimsically (or for financial gain) should be compensated? If so, I haven’t seen it.

    Do what you like to the cheaters, but you can’t lump the women who have been good wives in with them. Women who have foregone opportunities in order to make husband and family their full-time job for 18 years have to have some recourse if the husband up and leaves when the kids are grown. In that situation, she has honored her side of the bargain but is getting shafted anyway.

    I realize the situation I’m describing is not the case in the majority of divorces, is less the case than it used to be, and will probably become an even smaller minority. But there still has to be some concession made for them, as Kamal S. suggested in a previous thread, and Thursday is suggesting in this one.

    Like


  416. on May 16, 2009 at 1:35 pm Default User (of the Month)

    Bhetti
    That Woflram guy (your Alpha of the month) does not know anything about “pickup” or “PUA.” More like a typical beta geek.

    Like


  417. “If men had sense, they’d game a rich girl and marry for wealth and status.”

    The Contours were onto this over 40 years ago:

    Like


  418. on May 16, 2009 at 1:42 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””””””””I realize the situation I’m describing is not the case in the majority of divorces, is less the case than it used to be, and will probably become an even smaller minority. But there still has to be some concession made for them, as Kamal S. suggested in a previous thread, and Thursday is suggesting in this one.”””””””””””””””””””””””

    Ok if they worked at the marriage for 30 years and where never late with the bj’s they get 24 weeks severance.

    Like


  419. Obsidian

    I see the HBD thing in this regard as something of a sham, since anyone w/half a brain (which would include most Black folk, right?) can easily see that the biggest beneficiaries of AA were and ARE, White Women.

    I really don’t think you’re as dumb as you sometimes sound Obsidian.

    As you know I think it’s completely wrong that women got any affirmative action at all. However the only reason they did and do was in cultural Marxist mimickry of blacks getting it, for which there were much better arguments.

    Women of all colors being far more numerous in America than black men, did numerically become far more broadly represented in places of high achievement in American society than blacks, particularly black men.

    Numbers were part of the reason for that. Brains, particularly those of the numerous white women, but also increasingly Asian women who for cultural reasons were a little slower on the uptake, were the other reason. Relative brains.

    BTW, you’ll find that as a general but widespread matter, Indian Americans tend to be VERY IQ focused, and not really very interested in maintaining more than the thinest veneer of political correctness with respect to African Americans. They certainly tend to have neither the slightest bit of guilt in shoving them aside or ignoring them, nor of noblesse oblige. I suspect over time more will learn to affect the later, in imitation of liberal whites.

    For whom as you know it very much is an affectation, in most cases. Still, fools do abound.

    Like


  420. maurice

    Wow – doug was right. your persona is evolving faster than tadpoles at Chernobyl.

    I know, right?

    It becomes more and more apparent and blatant.

    Like


  421. I don’t think this guy should be alpha of the month. He lost any possible claim to that status when he was arrested because he came out of hiding “to attend a WEDDING”.

    Come out of hiding to see a dying relative. Ok.
    Come out of hiding to break a friend out of jail. Ok.
    Come out of hiding to attend a wedding. No.

    Like


  422. ““I am simply not a lesbian and there has never been any evidence to suggest I am.”

    Wow – doug was right. your persona is evolving faster than tadpoles at Chernobyl.”

    Sheer idiocy. I have always maintained that I am bisexual and queer identified. Doug arbitrarily decided that I was a lesbian and keeps posting this again and again and others sheepishly believe that this is how I once presented myself or that there was ever any reason to believe this.

    Maurice, really, where is this evidence that shows I am a lesbian?

    There is no evolution of my personality here. There is only the evolution of doug and his sudden change from falsely seeing me as an interesting lipstick lesbian to a manhating angry lesbian.

    Like


  423. “It becomes more and more apparent and blatant.”

    Keep lying to yourself. Anyways, some on my blog would like to know the source of your emotional hatred towards me-

    http://feministx.blogspot.com/2009/05/guess-ill-go-eat-worms.html

    If you keep repeating the same lie enough times…

    Like


  424. on May 16, 2009 at 2:07 pm Gunslingergregi

    Fem you orig said you could have vaginal orgasm then changed to you can have it all the time with certain people. That is quite a change. I mean that was your first challenge that was thrown out to try to find that alpha who could break you in right.

    Like


  425. on May 16, 2009 at 2:08 pm Gunslingergregi

    should have been could not.

    Then you said you hate men, there where quite some comments at beginning for major shock value:)

    Like


  426. “Fem you orig said you could have vaginal orgasm then changed to you can have it all the time with certain people. That is quite a change. I mean that was your first challenge that was thrown out to try to find that alpha who could break you in right.”

    I never ever said I could not have a vaginal orgasm. I never even implied that.

    Here’s how it goes- I have had perhaps 5 times as many female sexual partners as males. I have a strong preference for women in general. I do not enjoy sex with men unless they are very sexually dominant and preferably alpha outside the bedroom as well. But I can have orgasms every time during sex for the right dominant male partner.

    “Then you said you hate men, there where quite some comments at beginning for major shock value”

    Bhetti seems to understand that when I say these things, I am just jokingly going along with what other posters say.

    Like


  427. on May 16, 2009 at 2:14 pm Gunslingergregi

    then instead of just femist you added the blogspot crap lol so obviously see through desperation.

    Like


  428. @FemX – um, that you said that you were? that’s it’s all over your posts here and your blog posts?

    Like


  429. on May 16, 2009 at 2:15 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”””””seems to understand that when I say these things, I am just jokingly going along with what other posters say.”””””””””

    No when you first came on here you said you hate men.

    Like


  430. feminstx–

    Don’t you see now, finally, how much more it would profit you to seduce me, rather than attempt clumsily to bludgeon me?

    Silly harridan.

    That isn’t in your repertoire though, is it?

    (You’ve lately admitted as much, that you can’t flirt with men, but I suppose you’ll deny or try to disappear that also.)

    Like


  431. on May 16, 2009 at 2:19 pm Marcus Aureliette

    Ok if they worked at the marriage for 30 years and where never late with the bj’s they get 24 weeks severance.

    I’ll assume you’re merely being flippant with this, gregi.

    If you’re concerned about men’s earning power/emotional investment being compromised by cuckolding, you should be equally concerned about women whose earning power/emotional investment is compromised in the process of being the kind of full-time wife & mother many of the commenters on this board claim to want.

    Both are the result of one partner pulling a dishonorable bait-and-switch on the other.

    Like


  432. “@FemX – um, that you said that you were? that’s it’s all over your posts here and your blog posts?

    Where Maurice? Where is it? My blog profile has said the same thing since I made it- queer identified bisexual.

    Sometimes I will categorize myself as lesbian because I do prefer women and tend to date them more often, but I have never said I was 100% lesbian. Never even implied it.

    Like


  433. “Don’t you see now, finally, how much more it would profit you to seduce me, rather than attempt clumsily to bludgeon me?

    Silly harridan.

    That isn’t in your repertoire though, is it?”

    Doug, I apologize, I save my flirtation capacity for a man who I hope will be my husband. You are out of my age range and you seem to live far away, so I cannot give myself to you in reality or in my words.

    I wish to belong to one man only.

    Like


  434. feministx–

    Since you need all the help in this flirting with men department you can get, I wasn’t really flirting with you.

    I was just making a point.

    Like


  435. on May 16, 2009 at 2:37 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””””””””Marcus Aureliette
    Ok if they worked at the marriage for 30 years and where never late with the bj’s they get 24 weeks severance.

    I’ll assume you’re merely being flippant with this, gregi.

    If you’re concerned about men’s earning power/emotional investment being compromised by cuckolding, you should be equally concerned about women whose earning power/emotional investment is compromised in the process of being the kind of full-time wife & mother many of the commenters on this board claim to want.

    Both are the result of one partner pulling a dishonorable bait-and-switch on the other.””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Flippant thats real life for a man. That was my uncle always showed up to work. In the end got 24 weeks severance.

    Bitches need to man up.

    My womans sister had a baby. The guy ran out of money after they got married and she bought some shit. He still sends what he can but he doesn’t make much. So now she has to work in saudi and send money back so her kid can live. This is life this is the freedom to make a bad choice. She is a responsible woman. Takes responsibility for her actions. Nothing else she can do. The state doesn’t give you a free ride just because you popped out a kid. The state doesn’t force a man to support you when you pop out kid with the wrong guy.

    Like


  436. on May 16, 2009 at 2:38 pm Gunslingergregi

    I don’t think the state should be involved in any way between peoples relationships.

    Like


  437. Obsidian

    But perhaps the only real safeguard you have out there is Game. It really makes the difference between the guys who make out alright and do well, and those who get chumped in life. For such a small price, why wouldn’t you learn it? And I don’t mean being the next Mystery here, I mean just having moderate skills. Keeping a Woman deeply, hopelessly in love w/you, pledging herself to you and meeting her needs for a MAN in her life is probably the best line of defence against a lot of what we see.

    Game is the opposite of being a man (and PUAs don’t understand anything about what it is to be a man), and if you have to use game in order to keep your woman she doesn’t really love you. But since the world of game is just a big hall of mirrors, I’m sure it makes no difference to you.

    JerrDog

    I know a couple that was worth about $400k and she went totally nutzo on him after he started banging a co-worker.

    After discovering the affair the better solution would be for this vapid cow cunt to step up efforts to eat his cum. She could have gotten implants to sooth his titty fetish (which is quite normal). And she could accept and encourage the primal polygamist urges that all high-status men have by understanding that he will have sex with any other hot woman that he can find unless she happens to have drained his balls that day. She’d still be in house and her kids would be happy.

    Yet more proof of the fact that PUAs are fundamentally immoral and unethical, and such spoiled little brats that they want to have everything both ways. They want to enter a monogamous relationship and still sleep around, and if the wife finds out she should just shut the fuck up and swallow more cum. Of course, if the wife cheats then she’s clearly a horrible cunt, because only men have the right to cheat.

    If you can’t stand being monogamous, don’t get married you fucking imbeciles.

    Like


  438. Hope, I wonder, does China have informal ‘arranged marriages’?

    My grandparents’ marriage was arranged by the Communist party. They were both high-ranking officers of the party. Yes, women were also officers. Even in the 1950s there was widespread female particpiation in the workforce there.

    Anyway, Hope, if China had a culture where women were completely, or at least severly, limited in marriage options, that could have effected you in the same way. I don’t know much about China at that time.

    Nor do I, except by conjecture. My parents met while they were both in medical school. My mother was beautiful, extremely shy and certainly not flirtatious, and so only men who came onto her aggressively — my father, for instance — became part of her life. In some ways my life mirrors that, because the men that I’d been with (until now) were often less than savory characters.

    But it’s true, comment_whatever, I don’t flirt well in real life and a large part of that is my cultural upbringing. I am not comfortable with flirting.

    This quote by feministx pretty accurately describes me. I don’t flirt. I smile at people, and I’m friendly enough, but I usually give off massive prude vibes in real life. More than once people who have met me described me as a goodie-goodie.

    Or maybe the kids in your high school were just mean to the foreign girl.

    I’m really curious if it’s the profound explanation or the banal explanation. Or neither. Maybe just you were young.

    There were plenty of immigrants at my school, and more than a few Asian girls. I had boyfriends, and I was not completely clueless. But tragically, just like my mom, I had a real romantic streak. Instead of “practical” considerations like the wealth and status of my boyfriends, I was more concerned with what I thought was “love.”

    My mom told me later that she specifically sent me to a private high school and private, top-ranked university so that I could meet guys from rich families. I instead chose a nerdy, plump and poor white guy who didn’t graduate college, smoked pot and drank a lot. His mom was a crack addict, and his ex-girlfriends were trailer trash. I thought then, in my infinite 15-year-old wisdom, that I had found a great man.

    Now, at 25, I know better…I think. 😉 Earlier this year I wrote a list of the top ten traits I wanted in a man. After meeting him and falling in love in short order, I realized that he had matched them all, and then had traits that I never dreamed of because I’d simply never known a man to possess such amazingness.

    He is intelligent, eloquent, confident, kind, enlightened, dominant but gentle, and most of all honest, open and communicative. He is a great leader, plays the acoustic guitar like a pro, is visually artistic and talented, and skilled in advanced mathematics. He has a lot of outdoor / camping / mountain climbing experience, and has survived through conditions that would have broken many others. Even though this was once unimportant to me, it is also nice to know that he comes from a good family.

    He knows about “game” and acting like an asshole to “attract and keep” a woman, but he rejects it because it’s simply not him. Frankly, he doesn’t need game whatsoever. He embodies game. If someone had told me that such a man exists, before I’d actually met him, I would have scoffed. But oh, he does, and he is everything he says he is. And I am continuously in awe and grateful to have met him.

    Like


  439. on May 16, 2009 at 2:45 pm Gunslingergregi

    Congrats hope on meeting a gunslinger he he he.

    I give you props on listening and trying to make it with the first one.

    Like


  440. Contrarian, you are wrong. You are a troll.

    Like


  441. feministx

    I do believe that at this point, perhaps for the first time, you’ve decided you WANT to be bisexual.

    One of the few things of a self revealing nature of yours that I do take at largely face value is that you are now very much looking for a husband.

    In your feminist lesbian arrogance and sense of rightful privilege against all that theorized male oppression that you yourself have not experienced (but instead the opposite), you have no moral qualms at all about passing yourself off as bisexual or at times as really hetero, if only a sexually dominant in a thrillingly sadistic sort of way even alpha, will knock down your hypergamous lesbian door. (Yeah right.)

    Deceiving your future husband at a fundamental level is something you worry about not at all. You’ll take the divorce theft with open arms if it doesn’t work out.

    Hey, then the problem would obviously be that he wasn’t alpha enough, or in fact was really beta. Couldn’t be that feministx is really thoroughly lesbian and that the hypergamy theory is bunk with respect to wired that way lesbians like her.

    Bunk, or anyway why would an almost entirely lesbian (at best) man hater like herself deserve an alpha anyway? Especially when her recent more candid and not studio poised and partial face pics reveal her as a 5 or 6 at best (for those into that ethnic look).

    Like


  442. To be fair, nice (if very short at 5′) bod though.

    Like


  443. The face pictures on feministrix’s site kill the fantasy, however, that she is some drop dead gorgeous woman who just happens to be a dyke.

    Her face is 5-6, and her upper body seems chubby. I think those shots of her legs aren’t hers at all.

    Like


  444. Hey Sara,
    That bit of pop culture psych? Yeah, saw it on CSI, too. Worthless crap.

    Like


  445. Hope–

    I instead chose a nerdy, plump and poor white guy who didn’t graduate college, smoked pot and drank a lot. His mom was a crack addict, and his ex-girlfriends were trailer trash. I thought then, in my infinite 15-year-old wisdom, that I had found a great man.

    Lord. I had no idea he was anything like that. You sure did cover for him well. Too well. The pot smoking and previously drank too much parts came through on the board. That’s about it. Oh and his spending too much, which you’d gotten under control by example, you said.

    He is intelligent, eloquent, confident, kind, enlightened, dominant but gentle, and most of all honest, open and communicative. He is a great leader, plays the acoustic guitar like a pro, is visually artistic and talented, and skilled in advanced mathematics. He has a lot of outdoor / camping / mountain climbing experience, and has survived through conditions that would have broken many others. Even though this was once unimportant to me, it is also nice to know that he comes from a good family.

    Great. But. How much less into you is he? You sound way way in. The way you describe him makes that sound great, if. If you can pull him in.

    Also, for your own good, step back and switch to less rose tinted lenses. Fall hard in love, as Hope can do, if it’s going forward, sure. Well not sure. It’s great that you do that.

    As an exercise, what’s wrong with him?

    Like


  446. Marcus Arureliette–

    you should be equally concerned about women whose earning power/emotional investment is compromised in the process of being the kind of full-time wife & mother

    So then she shouldn’t be those things if for her it’s too big a sacrifice.

    Her life, her opportunities (commensurate with her abilities, effort, and umph), her choices, and her responsibility for those choices.

    Women are full adults now with full agency, remember?

    What man can require a woman to be a full time mom these days?

    Actually being a mom of two kids isn’f full time or anything close these days. Full time school age moms are living the life of country squires, full of leisure and ease.

    Like


  447. First of all, its very easy to get a gal to wear nails and high heels, any Woman can do that, and trust me when I tell you

    While this is all anecdotal, while the Mistress loved the idea of getting her nails done for me and wearing heels, another girl became mentally sick at the idea, and obviously Wellesley Queen thought I was a weird pervert.

    Some of thee most Plain Jane types out there wil literally rock your world, and some of the most slutty types wind up being dead fucks.

    Of course, many men have stated similar sentiments, but my problem is that if she looks like a Plain Jane, then I won’t find her sexually attractive in the first place, hence the need for visual sexually attributes like high heels, slutty clothing, and make up along with the nails to create an aura of sexuality. As I’ll note in a future blog post, these girls may be pretty or beautiful, but without the makeup and other physical enhancements, I just can’t see these girls in a sexual context. Even fantasizing about having sex with them creates weird feeling that it’s not right. Not in a moral concept, but that it would look awful.

    Speaking of which, just how do you propose to land this super hot, high IQ Woman who will bear your kids who will go on to be trailblazers of success?

    I’m well aware of that the fact I am unlikely to ever find this hot, high IQ woman. I have no master plan on securing this type of female.

    Like


  448. I should also note that the Mistress stopped sporting acrylic nails due to cost and health concerns, as the acrylic nails were eating away at her natural nails. It’s the same reason why non-date doesn’t have acrylics, and non-date like many other women seem to find high heels to be uncomfortable, and fear becoming like their mothers, women in their 50s and 60s with foot pain…

    Like


  449. “One of the few things of a self revealing nature of yours that I do take at largely face value is that you are now very much looking for a husband.

    In your feminist lesbian arrogance and sense of rightful privilege against all that theorized male oppression that you yourself have not experienced (but instead the opposite), you have no moral qualms at all about passing yourself off as bisexual or at times as really hetero, if only a sexually dominant in a thrillingly sadistic sort of way even alpha, will knock down your hypergamous lesbian door. (Yeah right.)

    Deceiving your future husband at a fundamental level is something you worry about not at all. You’ll take the divorce theft with open arms if it doesn’t work out.

    Hey, then the problem would obviously be that he wasn’t alpha enough, or in fact was really beta. Couldn’t be that feministx is really thoroughly lesbian and that the hypergamy theory is bunk with respect to wired that way lesbians like her.

    Bunk, or anyway why would an almost entirely lesbian (at best) man hater like herself deserve an alpha anyway? Especially when her recent more candid and not studio poised and partial face pics reveal her as a 5 or 6 at best (for those into that ethnic look).”

    Shall I invest in plastic surgery? I was considering a nose job. After seeing what ps did for holly madison (face went from 5 to 10), I think there may be real utility in some operations.

    But so far, I do not feel that I have experienced a discrepancy between the men I want to date and the men I can date. Certainly some men reject me, but thus far my problem in dating has been poor choices of my own rather than inability to snag a good mate. I suppose a few men that I would have wanted to date have walked away from me, but I don’t believe it was my appearance that made them do so (though obviously if I looked like Heidi Klum i could have kept them).

    “The face pictures on feministrix’s site kill the fantasy, however, that she is some drop dead gorgeous woman who just happens to be a dyke.”

    Azzif this was my idea. I’m just a kinda cute gal with a wacky HBD blog.

    “Her face is 5-6, and her upper body seems chubby. I think those shots of her legs aren’t hers at all.”

    The pics are all mine. Please. And I am apple shaped but too low weight to be chubby. IRL a guy I date might be nearly twice my weight, so I just look overall very small.

    Like


  450. lurker

    Contrarian, you are wrong. You are a troll.

    It has been demonstrated that you are a troll (and you are trolling right now), but you have not demonstrated that I am a troll. Where is your proof?

    Like


  451. feministx

    You want to know something?

    When you come off like this, I feel bad about picking on you. That’s not saying I feel sorry for you. You just don’t seem so nasty. You’re being honest here and aren’t fronting.

    You can take brassy and arrogant too far you know, particularly if you want to appeal to men, even alpha men.

    You’re a smart girl that thinks outside the box. I said that to begin with and I’ll say it again. 6 is more like what you are. Nose job for enhanced white guy appeal (since you lean that way) might not be a bad idea since you’re not at all adverse to that sort of thing, seem to come from a family with money, and so on. Screw the purists about plastic surgery.

    I’d lose just about all my hostility towards you if you’d TRY sex with men that felt hot to you. You’re not at all a virgin so why not? Try and be honest.

    If you remain lesbian in your urges there are honest, non exploitative arrangements that might work. An open marriage with rules for example, where you both sometimes took female lovers, but cared about maintaining marital affection and a kind of love, and commitment to the kids.

    Like


  452. Contrarian, you are wrong. You are wrong.

    Like


  453. feministrix the rug-muncher

    “Azzif this was my idea.”
    —right. You post a bunch of professional pics, claim you can get both hot men and hot women, but you never meant to imply hotness.

    “I’m just a kinda cute gal”
    —try plain jane.

    “The pics are all mine.”
    –top and bottom do not match.

    “And I am apple shaped but too low weight to be chubby.”
    –not from the head shots.

    Apple shaped=not girl with leg shots.

    “IRL a guy I date might be nearly twice my weight, so I just look overall very small.”
    –you don’t date men, d y k e.

    Like


  454. on May 16, 2009 at 3:42 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Regarding Femx’s looks and Doug’s comments about them. I think Frank Zappa had it right when he once sung that the ugliest part of your body is your mind (in “What’s the Ugliest Part of Your Body”).

    Like


  455. Anyone who spends much time around actual lesbian couples will notice that they beat on each other a lot. Break-ups never seem to happen without black eyes, chipped teeth and restraining orders. Normal, everyday life for them is not much different, either. Maybe I exaggerate but only by degree.
    OK, but what is going on here? We can only guess because they are not going to tell us. At least, anything that is true.
    But violence is alpha and it does wet their pussies. And consider how terrified any modern guy is of using it. But not females. Abuse shelters actively suppress the issue of dyke on dyke violence. PC works to cover-up and enable it, IOWs.
    Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to supply their own large need for alpha-ness by growing it for themselves.

    Like


  456. on May 16, 2009 at 3:55 pm Gunslingergregi

    omfg just read the link that femins little blog post linked too and I got to say wtf.

    They where all over the white man in the thread beating him down. On a feminist blog from some engineer chic from purdue. Then Obsidian steps in and totally fucking owns this bitch by saying he is a black man and all the sudden it was like everything he said in his post was truth. This fem bitch went on total defense and backtracked every fucking thing she was saying.

    Nice job obsid.

    Like


  457. on May 16, 2009 at 3:56 pm Gunslingergregi

    You want to fight with a feminist be black they have to asskiss you shit funny.

    Moral don’t be white in the us.

    Like


  458. Great. But. How much less into you is he? You sound way way in. The way you describe him makes that sound great, if. If you can pull him in.

    Also, for your own good, step back and switch to less rose tinted lenses. Fall hard in love, as Hope can do, if it’s going forward, sure. Well not sure. It’s great that you do that.

    As an exercise, what’s wrong with him?

    I agree. There is something wrong with him. He wants to marry me already.

    There is the fact that he will be attending graduate school for math in August. He does not have much of an income, but that doesn’t bother me. He is on a full scholarship, and he will be TAing. I don’t really like getting “stuff” from guys. He gave me a most amazing gift, actually. I told him I really like stars, so he drove me miles outside of the city on a clear night, and I saw more stars than I had since I was a little girl.

    He is into some very esoteric things — some very non-mainstream spiritual things. I was not much of a spiritual person at all before he introduced me to it, and I’m still very much a skeptic. He is also a skeptic in that he does not claim to “know” anything, but he tends to dive into those things more fully. He says ridiculous things in weird accents sometimes. He snores and hogs the bed. But, I mean, everyone’s flawed. We’re only human, and we both know that and accept that.

    I may well be his first real relationship. He has some baggage about women leaving him and hurting him intensely. He was the guy that girls would sort of toy with for a while when they were in another relationship, and then they would leave him to go back to the other guy, who was often a good friend of his. So in some ways he was soured on girls, because while he knew he had a lot of great traits, he felt like most girls didn’t appreciate him (and of course I tell him now that he is amazing to me!).

    He was in some ways like contrarian, minus the attitude, because he is a generally positive and well-liked guy. He just wasn’t interested in girls he could pick up with “game.” Even though he did that a few times back in college, he didn’t want to go down that path and instead chose to work on other things. He was single for three years, and mostly he was content with it. Neither he nor I was not looking for anything when we met each other.

    We are very much into each other. I’ve never admired a man so much before, to the point of actually gushing. I stared at him when he was laying on the bed eating a bowl of pistachios, until he got a little weirded out by my staring and pulled me over to kiss me. Did I mention that he is very physically loving? We feel very comfortable around each other, and it feels like we’ve known each other longer than we actually have.

    To be honest, meeting him has been so life-changing that even if things were to end, I would have no regrets. I feel like I’ve been irrevocably changed, and that I now truly know love. Once I knew love as a feeling mixed with so much agony and pain, but now I feel love to be at once peaceful and joyful, invigorating and exhilarating. I don’t fear this ending, because I think we are both balanced enough individuals each with enough awareness and discipline to make this work.

    It’s really kind of funny, re-reading what I’ve written. Maybe I sound a little loopy. Ah well.:)

    Like


  459. doug1

    What you sound, Hope sweety, is totally infatuated and out of your gord in love. Great feelings! Congrats.

    Well, we’ll see how things are going in five years or so. Being “in love,” as we know, is a temporary phenomenon.

    Like


  460. The feral human breeding cycle is 4-7 years. Divorce filing spikes in the statistics confirm this, as well as all the tens of thousands of “I don’t love my husband anymore” posts at dozens of advice sites like enotalone, loveshack, yahoo-answers, anwerology, and others.

    Like


  461. on May 16, 2009 at 5:10 pm Default User

    Hope

    I will second what doug says, you sound wonderfully out-of-your-head in love. Ain’t it cool?😀

    How long have you known him? Was this a slow burn or a thunderbolt from above?

    Neither he nor I was not looking for anything when we met each other

    So how did it “go down.” How did this guy run non-game game? And I am being serious here. How did he get from nice-to-meet you to drive-out-to-the-stars? We discuss game because we want the best girl we can. If that takes game, fine; if it can be done would out game that is fine too.

    If you won’t answer for me, answer for contrarian.

    Oh! If you do get married, get a pre-nup.😉

    Like


  462. Hope: Is ‘That No Good White Boy’ a story of shy (possibly ethnic) girls teen lives? I’m certainly too familiar with it.

    Aww, the cuteness of your state kills.

    maurice: Not another tragic story. At least noone dies. I shall get myself to a nunnery post-haste.

    Def: Wolfram is a natural alpha and does not need to know of such things. I have not seen any of the shows you mentioned. I’ve not heard The Stranglers song before but it is fun. I’m probably going to be singing it randomly at bemused classmates, possibly ruining it with substituting with medical terms. ‘Whatever happened to, using placebo? No more evidence any more.’

    Welmer: Your pretty lie perishing is going to make me cry. Someone hug this man.

    Like


  463. on May 16, 2009 at 5:22 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    This might be more appropiate. Same era (70s). It discusses the effect of too much oxygen on the human mind.

    [Musical style is the opposite of the earlier video – hope it works over there]

    PS
    I think that is what they called “Glam Rock.”

    Like


  464. on May 16, 2009 at 5:22 pm Gunslingergregi

    there all no good bhetti don’t ya know for ya

    Like


  465. on May 16, 2009 at 5:26 pm Default User

    Hope, Bhetti

    Hope:
    Regarding your new man you might need to get a grip on yourself.:)

    Bhetti:
    More Stranglers for you…
    hey I didn’t choose the name.

    Like


  466. on May 16, 2009 at 5:29 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    You are a London Lady.

    [in case you are worried that is a play on the title not any content in the lyrics]

    Like


  467. Bhetti–

    Welmer: Your pretty lie perishing is going to make me cry. Someone hug this man.

    I know, right?

    Def: Wolfram is a natural alpha and does not need to know of such things.

    LoL. You have certain sprinklings of Hope in you. Among other things.

    Like


  468. on May 16, 2009 at 5:32 pm Default User

    Why we study game? Because we know that life is Cool for Cats…

    Like


  469. on May 16, 2009 at 5:40 pm Default User

    While I am still “spinning the discs” from the 1970s Punk/New Wave era, how could I forget this. It pretty much started it all.

    Don’t know what I want
    but I know how to get it

    I wanna be Anarchy…

    Like


  470. Default

    Your last is the only vid that doesn’t come up “embedding disabled by request”.

    Like


  471. DA,

    I got a chick working for me now that wears high heels and has acrylic nails. The problem is that she is so damn timid that I don’t think I can poke her. Sounds like she’d be ideal for you.

    Like


  472. Contrarian,

    It’s sort of true. I’d get jealous if the secretary cheats on me. But the married chicks I’m banging are ok if they fuck only their husbands. My wife (whom I still shack up with even though I’m separated) still isn’t okay with getting an “au pair” although it would help a lot.

    Like


  473. on May 16, 2009 at 6:00 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    Some not-safe-for-work Gene Hunt

    Gene Hunt loves kids (work safe)

    Gene Hunt on love (nsfw)

    Like


  474. JerrDog–

    Your shacking up while separated relationship with your wife sounds interesting. I’d like to hear more.

    Like


  475. Bhetti

    Welmer: Your pretty lie perishing is going to make me cry. Someone hug this man.

    Heh. Here’s someone who needs a hug:

    Sad Girl

    I had to laugh, because right after I saw your comment, my daughter needed to go down for a nap and was fussy and crying, so I put her in bed. She kept crying and was saying “I need a hug, daddy,” so I went in and gave her one, then took this picture.

    I actually give and get hugs all the time.

    Like


  476. on May 16, 2009 at 6:07 pm Embedded Default User

    RE: Embedding restriction

    Click on the up arrow and select and copy the URL.

    The embedding thing is automatic. If you post a link to YouTube, WordPress creates the embedded version. I should have checked that they worked.

    I will try and create working links that you can click on.

    Like


  477. on May 16, 2009 at 6:13 pm UnEmbedded Default User

    I hope these links will work. Replacing the embedded disabled versions above.

    The Stranglers – Get a Grip

    The Stranglers – London Lady

    Like


  478. on May 16, 2009 at 6:16 pm UnEmbedded Default User

    I hope this link will work. Replacing the embedded disabled version above.

    Squeeze – Cool for Cats

    Others appear to work. Let the DJ know if the don’t.

    Like


  479. doug,

    I need to get my own place but the school years not out. Plus I have to sell a bunch of shit to buy a place (it’s expensive where I live) and that would trigger cap gains that I can’t offset. But the rental market only opens up in July/August – otherwise it is slim pickings. Plus the kids don’t have a clue about this yet and I have to figure out who will pick them up after school when it’s my turn to have them. Hence the “au pair” sex toy.

    Like


  480. doug,

    by the way I fucked my wife last night and it was good for a change.

    Like


  481. Well, we’ll see how things are going in five years or so. Being “in love,” as we know, is a temporary phenomenon.

    I know the biochemical basis of love, the rush of dopamine and norepinehprine. My feeling is that people mistake being “in love” with the “obsessive neediness” and the “drama,” so when these disappear they feel like they have to chase the next “high.” Same behavior as in drug addiction. I was certainly like that when I was younger.

    There was a time when I was very much a pessimist with regard to love, believing it to be merely a temporal state of peculiar brain chemistry designed to make us procreate — not worth all its troubles. Everyone who has ever loved considers that particular feeling of love as exceptional, unique and lasting. So my rational mind said, “This is just a feature of love’s chemicals. It is nothing unusual, just being caught up in the moment.”

    The rational mind is good at making us miserable. How can the rational mind attempt to describe the experience of music? Yes, there are demonstrations of frequencies in hertz and vibrations of wavelengths, but in the end, it is something that must be felt and experienced. Even scientists are surprised by the fact that 10% of couples who have been together for 20 years still appear to be in love on fMRI imaging.

    The feral human breeding cycle is 4-7 years.

    There’s the issue of the chicken vs. egg. Which came first? Did falling “out of love” cause the problems with the relationships or did the problems cause love to diminish over time? Were the two people not compatible to begin with? Did they actually see eye-to-eye, or did the biological state of “love” simply mask the problems until later? Couldn’t it be that people’s fears and baggage from past hurts cause them to act in ways that kill off love, rather than love dying a “natural” death?

    He was accepting about my divorce situation, because his mom was also divorced and later remarried. His mom and step-dad have been together for over 20 years now. They have given a bit of advice on this subject.

    There are things that two people can actively do to create light and love, and to keep the passion and romance alive. For example, instead of sitting down at night and watching TV, the couple can go out for a walk. They can work at keeping communication lines open, not being afraid to try new things and being spontaneous. They can nurture each other with mutual appreciation, acceptance, admiration and playfulness. Sure, one can call it “game” or one can call it being self-aware, conscious and willing to put in the effort towards building a healthy relationship.

    How long have you known him? Was this a slow burn or a thunderbolt from above?

    So how did it “go down.” How did this guy run non-game game? And I am being serious here. How did he get from nice-to-meet you to drive-out-to-the-stars?

    I had known him since January, a while before we started really talking to each other. I didn’t think much of him until one day I started talking about my relationship woes, and he lent a sympathetic ear. He spoke of “balance” and impressed me with his wisdom and insight. Even though we weren’t talking about anything major, I could tell there was incredible depth brimming underneath the surface.

    He ran “non-game” by being, well, himself. After a time he let down his social mask which was an “average normal guy” persona, and he let his deeper self shine through. He talked about subjects that most people do not consider, and which he also did not talk about with most people. Like me he also went through a period of darkness during which he was deeply unhappy, but then he began to walk the “path of light” as he calls it. He helped me break out of my cycle of guilt, resentment, pain, and negativity towards self-acceptance and love.

    There were also certain odd coincidences that led to us being drawn towards each other. If I go into those, I’ll probably sound totally kooky. Yes, most of the coincidences can be explained by the fact that I am merely focusing on them, much the same way that I am focusing on the similarities and minimizing the differences between us. And there are, undeniably, differences, but this is certainly not a case of “opposites attract.” We vibrate on such similar frequencies that it borders on the uncanny. Suffice it to say that we’re two really weird people whose weirdnesses mesh pretty well.

    Oh, and we both happen to be INFJs, except he’s a bit more extroverted and intuitive.

    Like


  482. JerrDog–

    by the way I fucked my wife last night and it was good for a change.

    So what’s wrong otherwise?

    Seeing as you have kids together, but you want variety and perhaps she does too, why not try to make an open relationship with some rules work?

    Like


  483. Most popular Eurovision song of all time which has just won in 09, ‘crossing political boundaries’:

    Direct link (Alexander Rybak — Fairytale).

    Europe’s so sappy. (Hope: ‘I don’t care if I lose my mind’)

    Gunny: you are so right. I should go back to man-hating, which is the sensible option.

    Default: At least I know Anarchy from Guitar Hero.

    Gene Hunt = Hilarious! I’ve been missing out. Haven’t heard an insult anywhere near the one he dished out since school days.

    You are wasting your songs on me. Get out there, man, don’t commit the crime of depriving womankind from your Default Awesomeness.

    Welmer: She’s gorgeous but I bet a smile’s the prettiest. Dads’ hugs are the best. I basically spent most of my evenings cuddled by him, watching Die Hard, talking randomness, taking care of him. I’m very sentimental tonight because this really shouldn’t be anywhere near enough to provoke the waterworks.

    Like


  484. @feministx

    I feel no feminist obligation to show respect to racist motivations for rape protection. It isn’t about women for them. It’s about some homoerotic male fantasy about virile powerful blacks and their effects on fragile white women.

    So you claim it’s racist for White men to want to protect White women from the extremely disproportionate rapes committed by Black men (a small minority of them)?

    Consider the following quote from Jared Taylor discussing the Color of Crime report in 2005:

    And yes, everyone’s suspicions about rape are correct: Every year there are about 15,000 black-on-white rapes but fewer than 900 white-on-black rapes. There are more than 3,000 gang rapes of whites by blacks—but white-on-black gang rapes are so rare they do not even show up in the statistics.

    Pat Buchanan discusses the subject here, including:

    Black-on-white rape is 115 times more common than the reverse.

    If the interracial rape rates between Blacks and White were fairly balanced, or were even balanced against some other statistical measure, like that the victims of the Black rapists were roughly comparable to the local population demographics, then perhaps excessive concern would be suspect, but the reality is so grossly one-sided that your argument has no merit.

    Of course, not too many people are aware of these sorts of large disparities because our “civil society” including the mainstream media like to suppress discussion and coverage of the subject.

    A recent example was the capture of an Black rapist and mass murderer of White women, John Floyd Thomas, Jr, suspected of over thirty rapes and murders.

    The following Associated Press video report on youtube “Police Arrest Suspected Serial Killer” shows his picture demonstrating his Blackness, shows a couple of pictures of his White victims and mentions SOME patterns, like most of the women were older, widows and living along. Yet they never get around to mentioning that little detail that he is Black and ALL of his victims where White.

    Here’s a Time story that also never gets around to mentioning the racial angle and here’s a google news search that links to lots of other MSM articles that play the same game.

    Would the media be so coy if it were a White rapist and ALL 30+ of his victims were Black? BTW, coy is a euphemism for totally f***ing dishonest.

    HINT: Consider how our “civil society”, including the MSM, responded to the FALSE Duke Lacrosse Team rape allegation. Compare and contrast.

    Like


  485. Argh. I messed up the blockquotes. This one should be correctly formatted.

    @feministx

    I feel no feminist obligation to show respect to racist motivations for rape protection. It isn’t about women for them. It’s about some homoerotic male fantasy about virile powerful blacks and their effects on fragile white women.

    So you claim it’s racist for White men to want to protect White women from the extremely disproportionate rapes committed by Black men (a small minority of them)?

    Consider the following quote from Jared Taylor discussing the Color of Crime report in 2005:

    And yes, everyone’s suspicions about rape are correct: Every year there are about 15,000 black-on-white rapes but fewer than 900 white-on-black rapes. There are more than 3,000 gang rapes of whites by blacks—but white-on-black gang rapes are so rare they do not even show up in the statistics.

    Pat Buchanan discusses the subject here, including:

    Black-on-white rape is 115 times more common than the reverse.

    If the interracial rape rates between Blacks and White were fairly balanced, or were even balanced against some other statistical measure, like that the victims of the Black rapists were roughly comparable to the local population demographics, then perhaps excessive concern would be suspect, but the reality is so grossly one-sided that your argument has no merit.

    Of course, not too many people are aware of these sorts of large disparities because our “civil society” including the mainstream media like to suppress discussion and coverage of the subject.

    A recent example was the capture of an Black rapist and mass murderer of White women, John Floyd Thomas, Jr, suspected of over thirty rapes and murders.

    The following Associated Press video report on youtube “Police Arrest Suspected Serial Killer” shows his picture demonstrating his Blackness, shows a couple of pictures of his White victims and mentions SOME patterns, like most of the women were older, widows and living along. Yet they never get around to mentioning that little detail that he is Black and ALL of his victims where White.

    Here’s a Time story that also never gets around to mentioning the racial angle and here’s a google news search that links to lots of other MSM articles that play the same game.

    Would the media be so coy if it were a White rapist and ALL 30+ of his victims were Black? BTW, coy is a euphemism for totally f***ing dishonest.

    HINT: Consider how our “civil society”, including the MSM, responded to the FALSE Duke Lacrosse Team rape allegation. Compare and contrast.

    Like


  486. Bhetti

    Gunny: you are so right. I should go back to man-hating, which is the sensible option.

    Ah, but I’ve been foiling you by remaining too mysterious for that.

    You are wasting your songs on me. Get out there, man, don’t commit the crime of depriving womankind from your Default Awesomeness.

    Thoughts of he and Hope had crossed my mind until Hope spilled her gonner-ness. Of course those kinds of thoughts rarely work out.

    Like


  487. @doug

    >So what’s wrong otherwise?
    she didn’t fuck enough and she gained too much weight.
    >Seeing as you have kids together, but you want variety
    > and perhaps she does too, why not try to make an open
    > relationship with some rules work?

    I asked for that a couple times but she is apparently traditional and I think would feel humiliated. I’ve also tried to do it by just fucking around and seeing how she reacts. I’m sure that her former co-workers and boss (she don’t have to work anymore) would love to fuck her even though she is pudgy but apparently she doesn’t want it from them or anyone else that I know.

    Most of the women that I’d like to fall in *love* with wouldn’t stand for it either. But then again, i’m not sure that there is such a thing as *love* anymore. I thought I was in *love* with my wife my first year (or even two) with her and that was a great feeling that I’d like to have again sometime. I’d also like to impregnate more women as well.

    Like


  488. Here’s a question I have:

    If your woman has sex with another woman is it cheating on you?

    To me it is only cheating if the woman is butch.

    Like


  489. on May 16, 2009 at 7:16 pm Default User

    Hope

    I know the biochemical basis of love, the rush of dopamine and norepinehprine… Same behavior as in drug addiction. I was certainly like that when I was younger.

    Because I am still in DJ mode:
    You are correct Love is the Drug. However it is still legal. Accept no counterfeit; go with the brand name, not the generic.

    On his game translating from NFese to Gamerati

    I had known him since January, a while before we started really talking to each other. I didn’t think much of him until

    He had not discovered game yet.

    …one day I started talking about my relationship woes, and he lent a sympathetic ear.

    He started with sneaky-fucker game.

    He spoke of “balance” and impressed me with his wisdom and insight… the “path of light”

    With expert calibration he saw that he needed to switch to astrology-girl game.

    He ran “non-game” by being, well, himself.

    The best game is “invisible.” This guy is good.

    After a time he let down his social mask which was an “average normal guy” persona, and he let his deeper self shine through…

    It took a while, but he was eventually able to perfectly calibrate his game to the target.
    All of the above was, of course, a joke. As a (P)erceiving type, everything is a bit of a joke to me. You may think I am evil, but it is just my humor (my brain made me do it).

    No jokes here. Regarding the quote below, I am glad. I hope (interesting how your name crops up when looking towards a brighter future) that it continues.

    He helped me break out of my cycle of guilt, resentment, pain, and negativity towards self-acceptance and love.

    Like


  490. on May 16, 2009 at 7:19 pm Marcus Aureliette

    gregi, you’re better than this:

    The state doesn’t give you a free ride just because you popped out a kid. The state doesn’t force a man to support you when you pop out kid with the wrong guy.

    Except neither of those statements have anything to do with the very specific instance to which I was referring. That is, when a woman does every single thing she’s supposed to do as a wife, forsaking her own earning opportunities to support her husband & raise their kids, and then gets dumped for a younger model.

    If a man does this simply because he tires of her, he has used her just as heinously as cuckolders use their cuckolds.

    I’m thinking of my own mother as an example. She dropped out of nursing school to be a full-time wife & mom — because my father wanted it that way. If that was her primary job until I was 18 and my father had left her at that point, she would have been at a severe disadvantage entering the workforce unskilled and without relevant experience at age 57. In a situation like that it is unjust to say, “She gets nothing.”

    This is precisely the reason that women should always, always be able to make their own way, and never, ever put their entire lives/futures in the hands of another person. It’s all well and good if the man is honorable, but what if he isn’t?

    Like


  491. JerrDog

    It’s an intermediate situation. In some ways yes, others no or not as much, depending.

    She’s not in danger of having the other woman’s love child, so that’s a BIG visceral difference.

    If she’s all or mostly lesbian, or otherwise enjoys sex with the other woman a whole lot more than with you (or worse she just goes through the motions with you), then yes she is cheating on you. You’re being lust / love replaced or never really stood a chance in the first place (see feministx).

    If the other woman is a little extra spice only that mostly only happens because you encourage it, and even more if you sometimes get in on it in a threesome, then no it’s not really cheating and if you’re up to it, could be good to great. If your woman is mostly seeking your love and approval and does other stuff for that reason, it’s all good.

    But how much of this didn’t you already know?

    Like


  492. I got a chick working for me now that wears high heels and has acrylic nails. The problem is that she is so damn timid that I don’t think I can poke her. Sounds like she’d be ideal for you.

    IIRC, don’t timid girls tend to want alphas even more to compensate for their timidity?

    If your woman has sex with another woman is it cheating on you?

    If there’s a threesome, there’s no cheating.:)

    Like


  493. OK, wankers, read this post, re: LILGRL.

    comment_whatever said:
    Then you have LILGRL, who despite being a worse choice as a wife than FeministX, attracts many men here and leads them around by the nose. Cause her mother taught her how to date/flirt/look for a husband.

    And yeah, guys, I know there is nothing better than an Attention Whore, Exhibitionist, with a liberal arts degree, and who is also a Japanese Princess/American Princess.
    She could also be a feminist to. A spoiled one.

    Number one:
    LILGRL is not a feminist. She supports MPT, generally advocates for the rights of men, favors rolling back feminist changes in society, and endorses traditional gender roles.
    If you think she is a feminist, or even might be, then one of the following is true:
    (a) you haven’t read her posts and are solely reasoning from stereotypes;
    (b) you have read her posts, and don’t believe a word of them;
    (c) you’re stupid.
    None of these is good.

    Number two:
    I’ll give you “attention whore”, and even “exhibitionist”.
    Guess what, fuckers? What does the men’s cause in this country need?
    ATTENTION.
    LILGRL, or at least the persona that she projects online, is EXACTLY the type of personality that is DESPERATELY NEEDED for the cause of men and families in this country.

    She is personable, confident, and well-spoken. But she’s also young and hot. Women will listen to her.

    We need women like her.

    Many of you would rather have a more modest, more retiring, less exhibitionistic woman as wife. But do you think that such a woman could do jack-fucking-shit for the public cause of men?
    Zero chance.

    Men, families, and anti-feminist causes need attention.
    LILGRL is pro-men, pro-family, and anti-feminist.
    LILGRL gets, AND HOLDS, attention.

    This is a good thing.

    Even Welmer, who has occasionally lashed out at this site’s women for reasons that are at best tenuous (like the time he called Bhetti a hairy neanderthal, or something along those lines), has correctly identified the tremendous value of someone like LILGRL.

    Number three:

    Novaseeker said: If this were a forum, this should be stickied.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Pop quiz, fuckers.
    How did feminism achieve such spectacular gains?
    By reaching shamelessly, everywhere, for help. Into any quarter from which any assistance for their pernicious cause could be sought.
    Feminists have no trouble recruiting beta men, WHOM THEY DESPISE, to help their cause.

    Nova, even if you HATE women at this point because, the drubbings you’ve taken from them, we need to rip that particular page from the feminist playbook and use it. Men will achieve nothing if we alienate people who can, and will, help us, in any way.
    LILGRL is one of those people. As I stated above, she could potentially be a very important one of those people, if enough wankers like you don’t preemptively shoot her down first.

    Shit.

    Like


  494. on May 16, 2009 at 7:26 pm Default User

    Hope

    Oh, and we both happen to be INFJs, except he’s a bit more extroverted and intuitive.

    Do you know which of you is the more (F)eeling. Your posts swing between logical (T) and poetic (F).

    Do you know what the soon to be forgotten ex was? I am guessing xSxP.

    Two NFs can be interesting. Just make sure you don’t get lost in dream world. Someone has to organize stuff in the real world.:)

    I am glad that he found you. Life can be tough for a male NF because their natural state is not what is expected of a man.

    To the males reading this:
    Remember INF types are about one or two percent of the population. What worked here (be yourself) may not work elsewhere. Do not try this at home. Use at your own risk.

    Like


  495. doug:
    I’m just me, which is completely individual, some parts constant, some parts in flux and contains elements of most women.

    Or humanity.

    I think there’s a potential in all of us to be anyone. No, that’s not right. An element. A part. A reflection that resonates with what someone else is. It doesn’t take that much of a leap from me to a nun, a statistician, a lone parent, a murderess, a stripper, a CEO. So what part of me, sir, is actually a part of you?

    Does that make any kind of sense? If I had any drugs to lay off, I would! But the only drugs I take are my own neurotransmitters, which is like Hope said, heavy stuff.

    If you think I can hate a man after knowing him, you are mistaken, trouble.

    Like


  496. Marcus Aureliette–

    I’m thinking of my own mother as an example. She dropped out of nursing school to be a full-time wife & mom — because my father wanted it that way.

    So did she, probably at least as much or more. Particularly once you were in school. At that point especially her job became very, very cushy. Country squiresse. American stay at home women often live very liesurely and luxurious wives.

    If she was determined to resume her career, for which she was well trained though it’s hard work, he certainly could hardly have stopped her.

    If that was her primary job until I was 18 and my father had left her at that point, she would have been at a severe disadvantage entering the workforce unskilled and without relevant experience at age 57. In a situation like that it is unjust to say, “She gets nothing.”

    Your stay at home mom waited until she was 39 to have kids? Waaa? That’s certainly hardly typical for women who give up their careers and don’t return to them at all before the kids are in college.

    As well as a trained nurse, with the nursing shortage and some refresher or finishing classes, she could have done fine.

    American and Anglosphere women want all the options and all the choices these days, but as well for their husbands if they’re at all successful to have to backstop them and pay for those choices, which culturally are supposed to be and often are entirely the woman’s, no matter what they are.

    Like


  497. Hope,

    Not that it’ll make you feel better because you probably think I’m a putz but I actually want a divorced early/mid 30’s woman (even with kids) for my next *love*. I’m going to specifically seek them out to the exclusion of other women. I can fuck younger women but I think I can only fall in love with someone like me.

    Like


  498. Scotch

    I followed the Duke case with great interest from the beginning because my own workplace had been tortured by a false sexual harassment claim in the past and my instincts were very strong from the start that the DA was rotten to the core as soon as he started refusing to listen to defense evidence.
    The truth was far worse than most people ever suspected. Mike Nifong and the Duke Administration knew those kids were innocent/no crime occurred even before the indictments. The Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner fabricated evidence for the corrupt prosecution.
    There is pure evil in the world. Prepare yourselves for a fight.

    Like


  499. on May 16, 2009 at 7:38 pm Marcus Aureliette

    doug:

    So then she shouldn’t be those things if for her it’s too big a sacrifice.

    It’s only a sacrifice if he abandons her after she’s given him those 18+ years. Come on, Doug, you know exactly what I’m saying and you’re being deliberately obtuse.

    Her life, her opportunities (commensurate with her abilities, effort, and umph), her choices, and her responsibility for those choices.

    Women are full adults now with full agency, remember?

    Is anyone saying they aren’t?

    If she gives up her opportunities to gain skills/experience in the working world and is then thrust out into it in her mid-50s, are you saying that it’s her own fault for not seeing into the future when she made the choice to marry in the first place?

    I have to wonder why you were not this flippant when the subject was cuckolds being swindled out of their time/effort/finances.

    What man can require a woman to be a full time mom these days?

    I work with three of them, just off the top of my head. Young men, adamant that their women stay at home to keep house and raise the kids, and not take work outside the home until the kids are in high school.

    Actually being a mom of two kids isn’f full time or anything close these days. Full time school age moms are living the life of country squires, full of leisure and ease.

    I don’t know one single mom for whom this is the case. If you know any mothers who are kicked back all day eating bonbons and watching their stories, you should publish the secret of how they manage it. I know at least 20 women who’d pay dearly for that information!

    Anyway, don’t try to evade by saying “it’s not that hard”, or “how many women really stay home?” How many men are really cuckolded in a year? Is the number relevant to whether or not it’s unjust? Welshing on a bargain is welshing on a bargain, and marriage is a bargain in both directions. If you convince a woman to devote 20 years of her life to making you her priority and then you ditch her because you get bored, then yes, you owe her something, because you have reneged on the deal.

    If you want fair play, you want it for everyone, or you’re just as bad as the radical feminists you complain about.

    Like


  500. 87

    Even Welmer, who has occasionally lashed out at this site’s women for reasons that are at best tenuous

    Trust me, I’ve got my reasons.

    Like


  501. Doug,
    Again, I maintain what I said-White Women catch breaks Black folk do not, and much of it is Affirmative Action based. When there’s talk of removing glass ceilings, more flexible work hours, more female representation among the higher echelon ranks of cushy pencil pushing jobs (note how White women in particular don’t scream and holler that much for the grimey jobs of the world), government contracts, Title IX, more endowment monies at universities specifically to address Women’s concerns, the list goes on-what do you think that is, Doug? Ain’t that Affirmative Action? If not, what is it? You tell me.

    It’s time for those White guys who bitch and moan about Darkies, NAMs and let’s just say it, plain ole Niggers, “taking” *their* jobs and college slots to Man the fuck up and put the blame wherw it really is, their sister, auntie, female cousin, mama, and the hottie they been tryin to get in her pants in for the longest. About the ONLY White guy who has ever consistently spoke on it in this regard has been Whiskey, and he’s either ignored or made fun of. Fascinating. But of course, he’s telling the truth.

    As for our East Indian brothers and sisters, I couldn’t possibly care less about what they think about me or my people, one, because I know more about them, their history, their ways, their culture and the fucked up way they have and continue to do things, racially, in their own homeland for centuries, and two, because I ain’t like the rest of the Negroes they’ve ever read about or known. If they think they can pull rank on O, they done ran accross the wrong Brotha for that. They need to understand that they are now a part of the Great American Skin Game, which means, that while they may not be treated as Niggers, they ain’t quite White either, and all the Honorary slots are filled (mainly Asians and Jews on that front). So, they need to recognize, so long as they don’t make too many waves, they’ll be cool-step outta line, and they too shall be Niggerized by Mr. Charlie.

    I stand by what I said about White Women and AA. If y’all White boys are really serious, you’d Man the fuck up and put your Women in their proper place.

    That is what Game is all about.

    Isn’t it?

    The Obsidian

    Like


  502. Trust me, I’ve got my reasons.

    I know you do. I’ve got mine, too. But we can’t let mases of pyrite occlude our view of occasional pieces of gold.

    Like


  503. Marc Aur
    So, if a husband provides his stay at home wife with enough maids/domestic help to give her lots of free time & options he owes her nothing if their deal falls apart? Just curious.

    Like


  504. Marcus Aureliette

    Doug: Actually being a mom of two kids isn’f full time or anything close these days. Full time school age moms are living the life of country squires, full of leisure and ease.

    I don’t know one single mom for whom this is the case. If you know any mothers who are kicked back all day eating bonbons and watching their stories, you should publish the secret of how they manage it. I know at least 20 women who’d pay dearly for that information!

    I wasn’t talking about a single mom but a married woman who chooses to be a full time mother, as was perfectly plain. In fact your transferring this over to a single mom is bizzare.

    As for knowing a mother for whom it was the case, how about my own mother. She got so bored that she volunteered to work for the county adoption agency. She quickly became the paid President of it. Then she got her MA on the side while still doing that work as a board member. And so on.

    Although if the single mom is divorced from a high earning professional man and doesn’t have to work, similar things apply, child support=alimony is so large and uncapped a percentage of a man’s pre tax income.

    Like


  505. on May 16, 2009 at 7:56 pm Marcus Aureliette

    So did she, probably at least as much or more. Particularly once you were in school. At that point especially her job became very, very cushy. Country squiresse. American stay at home women often live very liesurely and luxurious wives.

    She wanted what my father wanted, because she was utterly devoted to him. Her own wants were, quite literally, on the back burner. But that’s what she agreed to. She held up her part of the bargain, which was to take care of every aspect of the home & children, while my father was the sole breadwinner, BECAUSE HE WANTED IT THAT WAY.

    And pardon me for saying so, but: bite me. The fact of the matter is, I was there and you weren’t. She worked all the time, as housekeeper, groundskeeper, cook, child-care provider — without any assistance whatsoever, thank you very much. She worked harder than my dad did, and he was the first to admit it. Also: not American.

    If she was determined to resume her career, for which she was well trained though it’s hard work, he certainly could hardly have stopped her.

    Let’s just put it this way: you didn’t know my father. He wanted her home, and home she was.

    Your stay at home mom waited until she was 39 to have kids? Waaa? That’s certainly hardly typical for women who give up their careers and don’t return to them at all before the kids are in college.

    No, she had the last child at 39.

    As well as a trained nurse, with the nursing shortage and some refresher or finishing classes, she could have done fine.

    She dropped out of school 20 years prior, Doug. It wouldn’t have been refresher or finishing; it would have been starting over entirely. Why are you being so obtuse? You’re not a stupid person, but you’re knee-jerking just like a radical feminist.

    American and Anglosphere women want all the options and all the choices these days, but as well for their husbands if they’re at all successful to have to backstop them and pay for those choices, which culturally are supposed to be and often are entirely the woman’s, no matter what they are.

    You’re the only one claiming this, Doug. I never have. I say only that, regardless of gender, you are obliged to behave honorably. Nobody gets a pass on that.

    Like


  506. JerrDog

    Here’s a question I have:

    If your woman has sex with another woman is it cheating on you?

    To me it is only cheating if the woman is butch.

    I have the daydream to find a cute little 2nd to live with me and my new girl. The plan is to gift a vibrator to them, so that they can share it when I’m off travelling. That way I’d worry less about cheating. It’s the only way I can think to keep a high sex drive woman from being overpowered by her urges for man meat.

    Like


  507. on May 16, 2009 at 8:03 pm Marcus Aureliette

    rum:
    So, if a husband provides his stay at home wife with enough maids/domestic help to give her lots of free time & options he owes her nothing if their deal falls apart? Just curious.

    Sure, why not? If she outsources all her responsibilities, then she has time to devote to it, yes? In that case I’d have to say he will owe her nothing. If she didn’t make hay while the sun shone, that’s her own fault.

    This is not the sort of devoted wife I was using in my original example, obviously. I said right off the bat that the woman I was describing was a rarity, and destined to become extinct, eventually.

    Like


  508. on May 16, 2009 at 8:03 pm Marcus Aureliette

    GAH! Tags are my nemesis, obviously. Sorry for the italics.

    Like


  509. Do you know which of you is the more (F)eeling.

    I am the more feeling one, but not by much. He is less introverted, more intuitive, and less judging. We both have a logical/analytical side, too. Side effect of being nerds, maybe?

    I actually want a divorced early/mid 30’s woman (even with kids) for my next *love*. I’m going to specifically seek them out to the exclusion of other women. I can fuck younger women but I think I can only fall in love with someone like me.

    That makes a lot of sense, though.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily

    “Individuals in homophilic relationships share common characteristics (beliefs, values, education, etc.) that make communication and relationship formation easier. Homophily often leads to homogamy (marriage to people with similar characteristics).”

    Like


  510. Mar Aur.

    As a man I command the woman to do as I say… Ha Ha Ha. On what planet do you live? You sir, have a diseased mind that cannot see the plain facts in front of its face. Women have NEVER done anything they did not want to do. What men might say about it is meaningful to them only as a basis for building an excuse for doing whatever they desired to do in the first place.
    Being easily fooled is not a turn on to females – although they do try to smear approval all over guys who do their bidding.

    Like


  511. on May 16, 2009 at 8:15 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    You are wasting your songs on me…

    As a guy, do you really think I would listen to what a chick told me to do?:)

    Brian Ferry who performed Love is the Drug (link is above) was at one time the coolest guy in pop. He was also fairly good looking. However, he must not have had good game because he wrote this:

    It’s funny how I could never cry
    Until tonight and you pass by
    Hand in hand with another guy
    You’re dressed to kill and guess who’s dying?

    You see, it all started poorly:

    Yesterday – well it seemed so cool
    When I walked you home, kissed goodnight
    I said “it’s love” you said “all right”

    Classic rooky mistake: Over eager expressions of interest before he had secured attraction.

    See The full sad story

    The lesson guys is that being a rock star helps but it does not beat game. Just ask Rod Stewart.

    Ferry also suffered from Jealousy

    Like


  512. If you guys were on Jeopardy:

    Like


  513. Marcus Aureliette-

    Also: not American.

    Culture matters and cultural and material conditions matter.

    It hardly makes any sense to keep having this conversation if you won’t say what country you grew up in and are talking about.

    Giving your country is hardly personally identifying.

    Like


  514. It’s interesting to note his score otherwise!

    Like


  515. Bhetti

    Ken was robbed, he was!

    Like


  516. Bhetti

    PS. Bliss.

    Like


  517. Def: (special messages just for me, yay) I could not finish any of those songs. Too much sad.

    Like


  518. on May 16, 2009 at 8:26 pm Default User

    Bhetti
    “If you guys were on Jeopardy:”

    LOL
    Bhetti, you little rake.😉

    I would have gone with the first answer as well.

    Like


  519. Bhetti:

    I would have said, “Whats a Bhetti?”

    Heh.

    Like


  520. on May 16, 2009 at 8:27 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    It’s interesting to note his score otherwise!

    See, he has good game.

    Like


  521. Welmer:You got your hands on my bribed-the-authorities-to-hush-it-up criminal record? I thought he didn’t have a spine, so I didn’t think I could break it. Honest!

    Like


  522. Schoolboy

    An Arabeque Boop?

    Like


  523. schoolboy: You’re so witty, you are. I know what would get me pleasure out of you, boy, and it does involve long-handled implements. And lots of blood. (Yeah, you really need to change that name.)

    Like


  524. Bhetti

    xxxxx, you are.

    Team mate, mine.

    *smiles*

    Like


  525. PA

    To those of you who want to calm a baby

    So you’re not speaking form immediate personal experience?

    Like


  526. To those of you who want to calm a baby, remember the gentle rhythm, a soft whisper, and don’t estimate the power of a haunting melody.

    I will be there, I will be there ..
    – The Scorpions “”Still Loving You”

    Like


  527. Bhetti–

    I thought he didn’t have a spine, so I didn’t think I could break it. Honest!

    I think you’re rewriting history re beta #2, but that’s how it should have gone, and likely now would.

    Like


  528. on May 16, 2009 at 8:41 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    I know what would get me pleasure out of you, boy, and it does involve long-handled implements

    Wow there is a whole new side to you that I have never seen…

    …Oh wait. All that talk of DOMming. Now it makes sense.

    Oh and dont you commit the crime of depriving mankind of your natural awesomeness. Get out there, girl.
    😉

    Like


  529. Bhetti:

    Don’t kid yourself. You wouldn’t harm a fly.

    Like


  530. on May 16, 2009 at 8:53 pm Default User

    Hope
    Just out of interest. Did you enjoy my (attempted) humorous dissection of your man’s game?

    Yes, No, That was humor?

    Like


  531. @Obsidian

    I don’t quite see the affirmative action issue among race realists like you you. I don’t think most opponents of affirmative action give a big pass to White women, but would rather see the entire PC and quota system scrapped, including White women. Overall though, the boost given to White women is somewhat lower than that given to Blacks as a group, since White women have similar intellectual abilities to White men statistically. But for the record, I think the entire sex-based parity regime is a crock and should be scrapped and is based on similar distortions as other forms of affirmative action, including ignoring that, statistically, many women want to have children and care for them, which sets back their careers compared to men. Women also tend to be less work-centric than high achieving men although of course there are individual exceptions, like Janet Napolitano, and women overall have different interests (e.g. people-centric) than men.

    A typical example of excess is Ricci v. DeStefano currently being litigated before the Supreme Court where the city of New Haven entirely scrapped ALL promotions because they didn’t have a qualified Black test taker pass. This is the sort of ultra-cautious legal defense mentality that has transformed affirmative action from an attempt at redressing historical wrongs, into creating new historical wrongs instead and encouraging an ethnocentric instead of a colorblind society.

    I wouldn’t mind a little bit of affirmative action if it were done how it was originally sold, to make sure that Blacks, or others, who had mistreated as a group in the past were given a small boost if they pretty much equally qualified for the positions, at least for a while, say another ten or twenty years (but not in its current form).

    The problem is that it was rapidly transformed into a quota system that assumed if Blacks didn’t have very similar outcomes to Whites, then some sort of nefarious racism or discrimination was assumed to be the culprit. Steve Sailer discusses the “four fifths rule” in this article.

    Another major problem is that it should ONLY apply to long running American citizens, like native Blacks and Native Americans, and not every third world immigrant that arrives with no history here, including all modern Hispanic immigrants.

    I think it’s very unfair to put all the blame for differences in Black-White outcome on racism or discrimination by Whites when other factors like IQ and cultural differences also play a role. Consider the large variety of other disparities that exist, for example, between Blacks and Jews, Arab-Americans, Asian-Americans or between Whites and Jews or Asian-Americans. Basically many different disparities exist between many different groups, so if we’re going to be obsessed with the differences between NAMs and Whites, why don’t we break down the demographic categories more finely, e.g. Jews, Epsicopalians, Unitarians, etc. and just have the social engineers assign everyone their societal position based on absolute fairness since they’re our superiors and they know best? Well, they can’t be our superiors because everyone is EXACTLY the same, unless they’re considering their own status within the SWPL pantheon and which Ivy they attended.:)

    I’m gonna be busy tonight, but I look forward to your response tomorrow.

    Like


  532. on May 16, 2009 at 9:03 pm So long, and thanks for all the fish!

    Meanwhile… drug dealers and illegal immigrants are crossing the border undetected.

    Like


  533. Bhetti

    Welmer:You got your hands on my bribed-the-authorities-to-hush-it-up criminal record? I thought he didn’t have a spine, so I didn’t think I could break it. Honest!

    lol.

    You’re just a stand-in, Bhetti. I’ll explain when I have more than a minute free.

    Like


  534. SF,
    I question the supposed intellectual parity of White Women to White Men when Larry Summers can lose his job at Harvard because he said something the White Women in attendance didn’t like-and, keep in mind now, these are supposed to be academics/scientists-is that the way to behave? And yet, this IS how so often, lots of White Women professionals behave. It is not an islolated incident by a longshot.

    Affirmative Action insofar as Blacks are concerned, really only serves middle to upper middle class Black folk, let’s be honest. Every once in a while a truly poor Black kid from the hood gets in, but usually its those from the at least nominally middle class that get in there. Whether that’s good or bad is a matter up for debate to me, but I think all sides need to recognize and come clean on this fact.

    I’m quite familiar w/the Ricci case, and my own personal position is, the test is what it is, you either pass it or you don’t, end of story. Having said that though, let’s not pretend that all this handwringing we’re seeing from White guys everywhere is based on some great love for Ricci, because truth be told, this aint nothing but a big ole cause celebre for them. If it weren’t for this case, Ricci would be looked down on almost as bad as NAMs *because* he’s blue collar and working class, and let’s face it, most of you guys are white collar and don’t think that highly of the blue.

    I hear you on the scrapping the gender parity stuff, and usually the HBDers will say things like that when their arm is twisted. I need to see some of that vim and vigor that is visited on NAMs directed at Amy and Heather for a change. I need to some HBDers with some fucking balls, stand up for once and back Summers up. I need to see more blog postings about stuff like that, instead of Whiskey being the lone voice in the wilderness. Then and only then will I, and for that matter, Black folk enmasse, take you guys seriously. Until, its only pissing in the wind.

    Looking forward to your response.

    O

    Like


  535. this race talk bores me.

    Like


  536. on May 16, 2009 at 9:38 pm Comment_Whatever

    So long, and thanks for all the fish! wrote:

    Meanwhile… drug dealers and illegal immigrants are crossing the border undetected.

    Bye Marcus Aureliette.

    Like


  537. doug:

    Team mate, mine.

    *smiles*

    I’m getting a picture of my head of a man grimly saying ‘I’ll handle it’ then coming back home with a lot of laundry to be done. Civilised version!

    Clearly romantacised. <— hopeless.

    And, no, I’m aware I didn’t really break anyone’s spine. From the way he took it, I comitted crimes more heinous than this.

    Def: I’m also totally out there. I’ve lost track of all the engagements I’ve supposedly had. But there’re times when one should be studying.

    Still, it’s not that fun. Went to a fancy dinnah and was bored out of my mind (missing doug, checking Internets on my phone which I can’t comment from, being bemused I was labelled as AWOL), including carousing students. Making a comment on the resulting pics on Facebook was more fun than the actual thing.

    Romance novel-related link for you:

    schoolboy: (Dear doug, please forgive me for replying but you may find this interesting, thank you)

    I have punched out a helpless beta who wouldn’t hit me back once, with reported tooth chipping. And slapped another one in a reflex reaction who asked the very bad question when one is engrossed in a book: ‘What crappy book are you reading now?’ (I reacted before I could stop myself) And threw a shoe at a boy who was just sexually harassing me. And… er… I think that’s it. All around when I was 12ish.

    If we don’t include acts of violence against relatives, that’s pretty much my catalogue. Which I suppose is nothing, especially now that they’re all big guys now, not boys.

    I think the West has knocked that out of me. I remember crying because some idiot cut my hair, not because I was upset but because I was so frustrated with being angry and not allowing myself to act on it. I don’t think anybody would’ve been happy with me sticking those scissors somewhere where they would really hurt.

    But, yes. No hurting flies (speaking of that, my venus flytrap needs to be fed). C’est moi.

    No vids for feminist? I gots one:

    Here’s hoping you find a nice Sharuh for shaadi. Explosions are the perfect background for romance.

    Like


  538. Bhetti:

    Oh “Estelle”…you are quite the girl.

    Oh and…
    A Venus Fly trap as a pet= Beta.
    A Pirahhna as a pet= Alpha.

    Like


  539. Obsidian

    What Larry Sumners said at Harvard went beyond “what women did not like.” He made one them actually run from the room crying real tears of un-bearable pain. What he said was that most geniuses and dunces are XY guys and the comfortable, bland middle -range-talent is where the XX females hide out..
    It was true then. It is true now.
    I work with a number of black females. They are OK , they hold the middle. Some of them are fuckabe but I will not talk about that until I have an action report. That will curl j yoi

    Like


  540. Obsidian —

    First, though I am over-degreed and over-credentialed, like a lot of guys I know I’m working-class in attitudes, origins, and identity. I know quite a lot of folks with the same education but identity as working class. Identity is usually formed by who/what your father was.

    Second, most men ARE at odds with most White women over well, Affirmative Action. HECK I even had a POST ON IT. Bottom line: the Welfare State benefits White women and non-White or Gay men (and women), not White guys. While I can’t speak for the commenters here, most men are at this point pretty much aware that “the rules” allow pretty women to sleep their way to the top (and many do) while they are stuck in “drone” positions for the most part. [Office Space has a good take on that.]

    As Obama ramps up the Federal Government as THE employer of pretty much EVERYONE, the “No White Guys Allowed” is a HUGE issue. As in Ricci, working class White guys pass the tests, with the highest scores, but don’t get promoted on merit. Instead the City does a BS route of throwing out the tests and using “informal” stuff to promote only Blacks and Hispanics.

    That sort of stuff was “go along get along” as long as White guys were making money in good times outside the government. NO ONE ELSE IS HIRING but the Feds, and they said explicitly “No White Men Allowed” (quoth Robert Reich). Guys who went from $200 bottle service to get busy with women now are MAYBE waiting tables at some dive, for min or near it wages, getting nothing, while White Women, Gays, and various non-Whites of both sexes get hired.

    THAT is socially explosive. It’s politically unsustainable.

    Even more explosive, White Women are in open alliance with non-Whites and Gays to basically get rid of “beta White guys” from employment and public life. It’s why the Democratic Party, home to White Women, runs articles in Salon titled “So Long White Boy” or the Washington Post writes articles “celebrating the end to Whiteness.” What they are saying is basically a middle finger extended to most (non-Alpha) White Men. White women were all over the Duke Lacrosse guys, aka “the Return of Tawana Brawley” in the usual political line-up: White guys who are not Alpha, married older White women with sons; up against White Women, Gays, non-Whites, and various Alpha type White guys (Bill Clinton, John Edwards, etc.)

    Bottom line, in Obama’s Economy, the government controls EVERYTHING. All employment. All hiring and firing. All raises, all promotions, all demotions. White guys come last. That’s not sustainable and WILL generate a backlash, politically. At Obama’s core coalition: SWPL yuppies, White women, non-Whites. Look at websites like “Look At This F—ing Hipster” or “Hot Chicks with D-bags” or heck any number of websites. The average guy knows well who his political/social/cultural/economic enemies are and well, hates them.

    The only way to stop that is to have White guys get their fair share cut of the demographic pie (they are the largest group, in fairness should get the biggest slice). The government pie is all there is to eat, so expect a big fight over it.

    Like


  541. Rum: Genius has its price. There’s a level where even more intelligence just won’t do you any good, and compromise social functioning. A Short History of Nearly Everything made it quite clear to me genius does not make a person happy.

    Extremes = IQ/EQ polarisation for the most part, very disadvantageous. Which is probably part of why so little men reproduce relatively speaking.

    Like


  542. Here is an arrangement i came across:
    (1) negotiate wages for the amount of time she spend cooking and cleaning; (2) put a price tag on sex; (3) triple the price tag on sex if it results in pregnancy; (4) further increase the amount if the pregnancy results in the birth of a child; and (5) set aside a specific amount every month for the child’s use.

    Like


  543. I am absolutely sick to death of the race talk.

    Somehow, somewhere, somebody always manage to insert race into the conversation.

    Jesus H fucking christ on Wheelchair

    Like


  544. Hmm, it seems I’m a little late to this party.

    I’m only really here to say one thing, and that’s:

    @Welmer

    Your daughter is gorgeous, and she looks just like you.

    But, while I’m here, I suppose I should address the issue of, uh, me.

    @ Comment_Whatever

    Okay, actually, I’m not sure what to say to you. Did you accuse me of being able to flirt? Because, uh, yes, guilty as charged.

    Also, can you re-translate what it is I’m apparently saying? Because you’ve confused me a bit.

    “Yes, guy-pet, you can complain all you want, and I’ll even pretend to agree with you, so long as you take it like a good boy.”

    ^Who was I talking to? Who was complaining? Who was I pretending to agree with? whiskey? 87?

    Thanks for translating, in advance! :) Let’s talk this out, homeslice.

    Like


  545. LOL,

    ———————–

    i hear ya. i don’t even bother to convert babies for jesus, let alone an Indian dyke.

    just saying she’d be good to fuck doggystyle over her ottoman, then wipe my cock off on her sari.

    dirty bitch would sext me the next day – guaranteed

    ———————-

    LMFAO. That is full of 100% win, dude.

    Like


  546. Just Do It Girl (aka Hope):
    “The human animal is not meant to live in such large population groups. Dunbar’s number is significantly lower than the number of people living in modern towns and cities. Nation-states are simply too large to fit human morality. Humans are most moral when they live in small villages of genetic-closeness.”

    Correctemundo. You’ve come a long way, baby! Actual insight on display here.

    Hope continues:
    “Societies approach entropy the larger and more heterogeneous they become. That the modern nation-states have not degenerated into civil war after civil war already is a testament to how malleable and adaptable the human animal truly is.”

    Yeah, they are malleable and adaptable. But they aren’t THAT malleable and adaptable. Stay tuned!

    But seriously, good comment. Keep posting like that and Nike might need a new spokeswoman.

    Like


  547. Contrarian:

    >Yet more proof of the fact that PUAs are
    >fundamentally immoral and unethical, and
    >such spoiled little brats that they want to have
    >everything both ways. They

    Bullshit, this chick could have had money, a worthy fuck, her kids, and a house but instead she decided to fuck it all up for herself.

    I don’t consider myself a PUA, but I’m certainly giving women what they really want. They cum with a huge look of joy on their faces. I can hear there happy sighs. I can see the exileration and excitement when I ask them out. Sometimes I see the pictures of their loser boyfriends/husbands on the mantle/facebook page and think to myself “what a looser fucktard”.

    Like


  548. >$188,000. Say it to yourself. ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY-EIGHT THOUSAND.

    You’d be calling be beta of the fucking decade if you found out what I’m going to pay – especially since I think it is actually fair.

    Like


  549. I should probably explain what I liked about LILGRL.

    She came on this board openly and honest about who she is. She put her own photos up for everyone to see rather than surreptitiously handing them out to her favorites. She is not, as far as I can tell, trying to game anyone on this site (I have my suspicions about others). This site is about game for men, but we men ought to be absolutely clear about the fact that women can game men better than the other way around. Women who come on here trying to game men will get both barrels pointed at them from me, especially if I sense they are dissing their current men to put out bait for other men — this is a classic whore tactic designed to appeal to the male ego.

    LILGRL did not do that. She is not that way as far as I can tell. If she were, my guess is that she would have been suggesting vague dissatisfaction with some man in her life, then when some typical bottom feeder bit she would initiate a private correspondence with him. As an example, I recently had a girl I knew from long ago get in touch with me, then tell me that her “ex” (yeah, right), was a loser in rehab, but she still loved him. I knew exactly what she was doing, and told her to quit calling me and go back to him. The last thing I want is some bitch who is trying to play the flying trapeze with men. I know from experience that she’ll eventually do the same to me.

    LILGRL may write things that you or I don’t like, but she isn’t trying to hook up with us. At least I sure don’t see her doing that. If anything, she likes showing what she’s got, and if that isn’t normal for a woman, I really don’t know what is.

    What’s valuable about her presence is her refreshing candor. Yes, she’s a woman through and through, but she has a quality that is oh-so-rare in that half of our species: honesty. If I met her randomly and she is really as tall as she says, I’d probably feel compelled to talk to her simply because that would be impressive to see and I’d like to commend her for her good luck in the genetic lottery. Otherwise, I welcome her presence here as an example of a woman who is not afraid of baring either her physique or mentality. She does not dissemble! How often do you see that in a woman? Hardly ever!

    I save my venom for the tricky ones, who dodge and lie and give us only one part truth for a hundred parts deceit.

    Like


  550. on May 17, 2009 at 1:29 am Steve Johnson

    femx-

    “Shall I invest in plastic surgery? I was considering a nose job. After seeing what ps did for holly madison (face went from 5 to 10), I think there may be real utility in some operations.”

    The flaw in your face is the fat on your cheeks. You’ve got beautiful eyes and lips but you look doughy.

    Like


  551. on May 17, 2009 at 2:06 am Gunslingergregi

    ahh the 2nd sneaky fucker game expert.

    The only problem I see with the sneaky fucker game is the woman gets an illusion. So that when you show the you she probably tends to get upset that she got cheated. he he he

    Like


  552. on May 17, 2009 at 2:26 am Gunslingergregi

    “”””””””””””””””Marcus Aureliette
    gregi, you’re better than this:

    The state doesn’t give you a free ride just because you popped out a kid. The state doesn’t force a man to support you when you pop out kid with the wrong guy.

    Except neither of those statements have anything to do with the very specific instance to which I was referring. That is, when a woman does every single thing she’s supposed to do as a wife, forsaking her own earning opportunities to support her husband & raise their kids, and then gets dumped for a younger model.

    If a man does this simply because he tires of her, he has used her just as heinously as cuckolders use their cuckolds.

    I’m thinking of my own mother as an example. She dropped out of nursing school to be a full-time wife & mom — because my father wanted it that way. If that was her primary job until I was 18 and my father had left her at that point, she would have been at a severe disadvantage entering the workforce unskilled and without relevant experience at age 57. In a situation like that it is unjust to say, “She gets nothing.”

    This is precisely the reason that women should always, always be able to make their own way, and never, ever put their entire lives/futures in the hands of another person. It’s all well and good if the man is honorable, but what if he isn’t?””””””””””””””””””””

    Your right I am better than this. I have already helped my woman to have freedom. This is the way I think it should always work. So no I will never have the same problem with my current woman. Woman need to step up to the plate and do something. Your mom could have done some extra shit on the side. Why do you think woman should get a retirement check for being married. They need to create their own check through their efforts. Of course not everyone will make their own retirement checks. I am saying it is possible though and if you don’t achieve that as a couple then you can both suffer the consequences. How many companies were jumping through hoops to hire your dad at 57 even with his lifetime of “training”.

    Like


  553. on May 17, 2009 at 2:30 am Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””””That is, when a woman does every single thing she’s supposed to do as a wife, forsaking her own earning opportunities to support her husband & raise their kids,””””””””””””””

    Specifically on this from marcus. She didn’t do everything she was supposed to do she didn’t help him beat the game.

    Like


  554. Gunslingergregi

    Your right I am better than this. I have already helped my woman to have freedom. This is the way I think it should always work. So no I will never have the same problem with my current woman

    I always helped and encouraged my wife to be independent as well. Didn’t work out so well for me — except for the fact that I didn’t end up owing her anything after we got divorced.

    You help a woman to be free, and she will eventually be free — from you (unless you are willing to give up your own freedom and self-respect, which I was not).

    Like


  555. on May 17, 2009 at 3:27 am Gunslingergregi

    Why I still am working on my own freedom. We both will be free in the relationship. Except with our promise to each other she is not free to end it. Neither am I. So yea I guess I gave up some freedom.

    Like


  556. Comment — Gotta go with LilGirl on this one.

    If you are a guy and you get cheated on, what is your HIGHEST PRIORITY?

    Why, to get a new girl, of course!

    EVERYTHING must flow from that priority. Whatever helps you (get a new girl, presumably hotter/better) should be embraced. Whatever hinders that goal, should be RUTHLESSLY SHOVED ASIDE.

    It’s a matter of mental discipline. Sure, no one likes being hurt and everyone wants to hurt back.

    But a man cannot afford to indulge his feelings like that. It’s both unmanly (giving into emotions) AND counterproductive to your first priority: Get a new/better girl.

    Simple as that. You literally cannot AFFORD to feel anything but indifference to the old girl, because you are totally focused on the new girl. This is particularly true because your market value took a beating.

    Girl dumped you, cheated on you, once that gets around it’s like buyers taking a huge pass on a house because it’s got problems. Value to women only goes down because women assess your value based on how other women perceive you. Already one woman has made a judgment about you: she’d rather have someone else for sex.

    Revenge, thinking one second about the woman in question, is simply time you cannot waste and emotions you cannot indulge. Focus, focus, focus on your goal.

    As for controlling cheating, not going to happen. EVER. Women only care about cheating if they miss out on a good thing. IF every guy who was cheated on promptly got a new and better girl, THAT would the only control that mattered. But it’s not probable. You must therefore look to your own self interest.

    Like


  557. The reason high-IQ men have self-inflicted problems with women are :

    1) High IQ people tend to bore in the company of average-IQ people. Thus, they don’t socialize as easily, particularly with woman, who tend to talk about unintelligent subjects. This is particularly true of INTJ personality types.
    2) They tend to be in professions with too few women, creating less exposure and more betatude.
    3) A high-IQ person is certainly capable of learning Game quickly, but quite often manages not to.

    Like


  558. Whiskey, Rum,
    Whiskey I’ve read your recent essay on the Obama Economy nd how its likely to effect White Men and I agree pretty much w/everythin you wrote. I have a major concern in this area for one simple reason-guys like you are still the only real game in town. You’re the biggest demo group, and still hold all or at least most of the cards when it comes to actually getting things done in society. It is folly for the other side that coalition you mentioned, to think they can actually getaway with and pull off what they’re apparently doing. Just doesn’t make sense, nor do we want a nation full of Angry White Guys. Not good for anu of us.

    And good point about the “faith of our fathers”. In that respect we share much in common.

    Rum, what you noted wrt Summers even highlights my point even more-is someone who can’t even take such a comment w/o fleeing the room in tears really qualified to occupy some of the highest positions in academia and the sciences? I mean, are we serious? White Women may be able to have the GPA and get the test scores, but clearly many of them lack the temperment needed to engage in such pursuits. And that is the point, we deliberately over look these very important things and “promote” em anyway, and that I maintain is just as bad as the raw deal-and it IS raw deal-that Ricci & Co. are getting now. No difference.

    O

    Like


  559. White Women may be able to have the GPA and get the test scores, but clearly many of them lack the temperment needed to engage in such pursuits.

    Nancy Hopkins would get her ass handed to her — on every level — by any of the LDR nurses I have a pleasure of seeing in action as we speak.

    Like


  560. on May 17, 2009 at 9:09 am lurking and hurking

    god DAMN could you all hurl yourselves at the feet of an attention whore that isn’t going to bang any of you any harder? bhetti–go get a meatspace boyfriend for christ’s sake

    Like


  561. on May 17, 2009 at 9:13 am Default User

    contrarian

    But how could this be, when one expert after another assures me that the only possible method of getting it on with the ladies is to game them…

    Have you ever been in, or even tried to form, a relationship with a woman?

    As you pointed out, one man found a good woman without game. So are you going to actually try? Actually go out into the real world and interact with real women? We now know that such a woman exists so you have no excuse.

    You could make a positive contribution by going out and non-gaming women and then report back, describe your successes and your failures. Because if you want to convince us (as compared to your current masturbatory trolling) that would be the way. One thing is certain; you will not find your quality woman hiding behind a keyboard.

    Like


  562. Default User

    Have you ever been in, or even tried to form, a relationship with a woman?

    As you pointed out, one man found a good woman without game. So are you going to actually try? Actually go out into the real world and interact with real women? We now know that such a woman exists so you have no excuse.

    I’ve always known such women exist, since it is so self-evident. As for my “excuses,” there still aren’t any Asian women where I live. And where did you get the idea that I’m not presently in the real world and not interacting with real women?

    You could make a positive contribution by going out and non-gaming women and then report back, describe your successes and your failures. Because if you want to convince us (as compared to your current masturbatory trolling) that would be the way.

    First people are adamandant about insisting that you absolutely cannot get women without game, and when Hope says that his boyfriend didn’t use game everyone just accepts it as true, but now I am required to go out and do field studies to prove that there are women who can be had without game. If you accept Hope’s story, what is there left to prove? Not that it really matters what Hope said, since it is plainly obvious that game isn’t necessary. Only a fanatic or an idiot would think otherwise.

    I have no interest in one night stands or casual relationships, so it makes no difference to me whether or not game is effective or necessary for those purposes, and I’m certainly not going to to attempt to pick up women so I can prove to the Internets something they already know, or claim to know.

    (as compared to your current masturbatory trolling)

    I will stop being a troll as soon as you stop being a child molester.

    (See what I did there?)

    One thing is certain; you will not find your quality woman hiding behind a keyboard.

    Said the anonymous Internet poster hiding behind a keyboard.

    Like


  563. on May 17, 2009 at 10:32 am Default User

    contrarian

    First people are adamandant about insisting that you absolutely cannot get women without game, and when Hope says that his boyfriend didn’t use game everyone just accepts it as true, but now I am required to go out and do field studies to prove that there are women who can be had without game.

    Hope is one woman relating her story. It would be nice to hear a man relate his non-game experience. While we spend a lot of time discussing theories, we do also talk about and listen to experience.

    This is not necessarily about one-night stands, if you want to meet that one special woman you still have to go through some form of “courting.” In trying to meet her, you will probably have to meet many who are not the one. You will certainly have successes and failures. You will learn what you like and dislike about women and what they like and dislike about you. Discussing this can help you and can help others.

    I got the idea that you are not interacting with women because you have a highly idealized idea of the perfect woman and you never discuss actual experience.
    [you may have, but I do not remember seen it]

    It is true that I am (right now) hiding behind a keyboard, but I have had real life experience with women. I have had some success and some crushing defeats. My experience is that I have done better with the application of game (mindfulness of how I present myself) than without it (so-called be myself). The thing is, that even with game I am still me. I have the same humor, the same interests, and the same vulnerabilities. She wears her most flattering clothes; I wear my most flattering personality. So maybe we are playing games, but games are meant to be fun.

    If you want to gain respect here, if you want to convince us of the errors of our ways, the discussing your experience would be a good start.

    Like


  564. @bhetti (long ago) – yeah, I meant the good bits and not the bad ones. come to think of it, the stories of all the legendary lovers (Tristan and Isolde, Daphins and Chloe, Bonnie and Clyde, Sid and Nancy, etc.) all ended badly. (Lesson there?)

    @obs – totally agreed, spot on as usual.

    @tood – agreed, good points. another main reason is that much of game takes place on an emotional level, on the ability to understand women’s emotional states and calibrate accordingly. And high-IQ guys aren’t used to (or are unable to) thinking this way. They’re all right-brain and no left brain. (Or is it the other way around…?) The geeky acronyms (IOI, DHV, etc.) are just proxies for states of interaction which are laced with emotion, context, etc.

    Like


  565. contrarian: You may leave these guys to their delusions for you have done your best, God speed.

    lurking/hurking: But non-meatspace boyfriends are just so much more fun in this betatised world. Anyway, I think both parties can tone it down a little.

    Welmer: You know, I’ve only been hearing the mention of female game lately. I only remember vaguely a reference to it ages ago, which involved dismissing it as not real and talking about looks. If it exists, then I may be a ‘natural’ because I certainly don’t calculate it. I find it really difficult to process how thoroughly a female can actually control a man and don’t give credit to the ‘they can bring an empire down to its knees’ theories and if they were true, I certainly didn’t think they applied to me.

    But if I look back, I can certainly see the impulse of gaining affection from men (and this impulse makes evopsych sense: you want a man to be invested in you so that he’d look after you.) I’d be shy and quiet with the more conservative Arabs but in contrast deliberately provoked my Irish teachers with doubting, tangential questions or correcting their spelling with a healthy dose of insolence. Men generally seemed to like me, if think me occasionally insane (who wouldn’t?). I thought it was platonic. I’m not sure how much is deception and dissembling. It’s interesting you talk about female game in the way women don’t like male game.

    Still: I’ve only consciously made that much of an effort with my looks recently, which was reportedly where attraction’s supposed to lie.

    Whatever I do, they seem to enjoy it and it looked like harmless fun. Surely no one harbours any illusions of what they can get out of me and I didn’t promise anyone pics if they sweet-talked me right. It was a one man impulsive experiment that I’m not planning to repeat. I am certainly playing favourites, but not to any malicious purpose I can think of or preplanned. I don’t expect anyone to come to my rescue, although I should’ve seen I’d thrown down a challenge for someone to in the way I reacted. I’m learning the mindset that will make sure I’m not bothered.

    No matter what I say: a sensible life policy is to trust no one, especially those who ask you to rather than demonstrate why. But it’s not always worth it being sensible, is it?

    Like


  566. maurice: lessons:
    — Humans cannot suspend disbelief and have trouble believing in the concept of love as forever. I can’t stand them and prefer the romance novels. Although you didn’t mention it, Romeo and Juliet was a joke if we’re talking about love. We really couldn’t believe they’d last, so they get killed off and ta-da, legend. It’s a shortcut to make it believable and it’s much harder to pull of a happy ending.
    — Human/People who decide what makes a legend can think that suffering means its profound. There’s some truth to it but in this context: Give me a break.

    Like


  567. Possible extra lesson:
    — People want to believe they’ve fallen in love and creating an angst-filled story works much better to appeal to that. Thus: teenagers, bad poetry and all the posturing around breakups.

    Like


  568. on May 17, 2009 at 11:16 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Obsidian, Whiskey, Rum, etc.

    White men supported affirmative action for white women over black men starting in the 1980s.

    The reason they did this was it brought two incomes into middle class families, creating the McMansion Society we now have.

    But the unfortunate consequence of this was further divided the gap between the rich and poor. Upper middle class “power couples” became the norm, and families that just had the man working were relegated to lower middle class status by default.

    Now white men are finding themselves like black men, not going to college and increasingly shut out of the job market. White guys might have done better to support black men, not girl power.

    I’ve spent decades working in offices, and I’ve never come across black guys and white guys having problems with each other, racially speaking. Yet I constantly see male-female friction. Just an observation.

    Like


  569. Contraian,

    >The man cheated which prompted the woman to
    >get a divorce. The man is at fault.

    a tad simplistic?

    I cannot know for certain because I’m not some fairy-tale invisible omniscient deity in the sky who will ultimately pass judgement on sinners (nor do I believe in such superstitious filth). But I’d be willing to bet, given the chicks nuttiness and inability to socially function normally afterwards, that she’s mostly (90%+) to blame for his cheating even though he is a bit of a fuckwad.

    Perhaps the real assessment of “fault” should be answering the hypothetical question of whether or not he would have cheated had he happen to marry someone else who didn’t turn so damn frigidly cunty on him. It happened to me.

    Besides if a woman marries “up” (and what woman doesn’t) and doesn’t perform pro-active ball drainage, the results are inevitable.

    By the way, if you have yellow fever you should get a job that takes you abroad to Schenzen or something. You could probably have a lot of fun there.

    Like


  570. on May 17, 2009 at 11:47 am Default User

    Bhetti

    Curiosity:

    Having played lame-ass, 70s throwback DJ this weekend, what kind of music do you listen to?

    After you qualify, what are you going to do (GP, specialty, private/NHS)? Again, just curious, don’t answer if you feel it is too personal (like you would anyway).

    PS:
    I love the plant in the photo you linked above. That is so you. At least the prickly you that you like to project to the world (not the fun/flirty Bhetti we know).

    Like


  571. Default User

    Hope is one woman relating her story. It would be nice to hear a man relate his non-game experience. While we spend a lot of time discussing theories, we do also talk about and listen to experience.

    Do you seriously think that only PUAs or extremely high status men are able to get women?

    This is not necessarily about one-night stands, if you want to meet that one special woman you still have to go through some form of “courting.” In trying to meet her, you will probably have to meet many who are not the one. You will certainly have successes and failures. You will learn what you like and dislike about women and what they like and dislike about you. Discussing this can help you and can help others.

    This might apply to me if I lived in, say, Japan. But I don’t.

    I got the idea that you are not interacting with women because you have a highly idealized idea of the perfect woman and you never discuss actual experience.
    [you may have, but I do not remember seen it]

    There’s really no reason for me to settle for anything less than ideal or near-ideal. It’s not like I need to have a girlfriend, and there are plenty of advantages to being alone.

    It is true that I am (right now) hiding behind a keyboard, but I have had real life experience with women. I have had some success and some crushing defeats. My experience is that I have done better with the application of game (mindfulness of how I present myself) than without it (so-called be myself). The thing is, that even with game I am still me. I have the same humor, the same interests, and the same vulnerabilities. She wears her most flattering clothes; I wear my most flattering personality. So maybe we are playing games, but games are meant to be fun.

    I see nothing fun about dating a low quality woman who doesn’t even really care about me.

    JerrDog

    tad simplistic?

    Based on the information provided, no.

    Like


  572. on May 17, 2009 at 11:59 am Default User

    contrarian

    Do you seriously think that only PUAs or extremely high status men are able to get women?

    Obviously not. Hence the call for your (non PUA) experience.

    Like


  573. Bhetti–

    Anyway, I think both parties can tone it down a little.

    Oh dear. Is that a hint, or more like a steam powered horn blast?

    As a favored experiment though, I’m not sure that’s in my nature. In fact I’m rather sure it isn’t.

    Unless you get very cruel. Hey, that might be fun to play with too!

    Anyway, why? So lurker doesn’t get too jealous? There are others we’ve been entertaining baby! Think of them, think of humanity!! Hell, you’ve even been called Héloïse to my Abelard! (Are there Islamic nuns?) We have our public now Bhetti! Think of them! Think of them!

    Myself, I’m more worried about performance anxiety. (Not really.) Oh, just be yourself, no worries. That’s fine with me.

    Alright, studiously toning it down, starting now. Now I said!! No more flirting for me. All serious business here.

    Carry on.

    Like


  574. on May 17, 2009 at 1:39 pm Default User

    doug1, Bhetti, lurking and hurking, et al

    What is the problem with e-flirting? Just like in real life it is fun. Just like in real life flirting is often most fun when there is no hope or expectation of anything else (giving you the safety to be brave).

    What is flirting? It is a game where each participant offers vague hints of possible attraction. Those hints are offered in an as ambiguous manner as possible. This leaves everyone with plausible deniability if anyone changes his or her mind. In many cases there is no aim of a pickup or relationship. It is the same thing here.

    Great things a man can do for a woman

    1- Make her laugh
    2- Bring out her feminine girly side.
    3- Bring out her flirty, cheeky side.
    4- Make her cry (in a good way: by touching her heart, not by cruelty)
    5- Bring out her earthy, sexy, and sensuous side.

    Great guys that we are here, we like to try for the first three (improving the lives of the female posters). We know that the last will never happen, and the fourth is very difficult.

    We can look at this as flirting practice for the real world. A bit like kittens and puppies pretend fighting to train them for the real world.

    There endeth Sunday’s (sappy) sermon.
    [I will now pass around the collection plate – no coins please]

    Like


  575. on May 17, 2009 at 1:43 pm Default User

    doug1

    …Myself, I’m more worried about performance anxiety…

    There is no cure for a limp Internet connection. It is a tragedy that effects up to 30 percent of all households. Many suffer without complaint, assuming that it is just how things are.

    Like


  576. on May 17, 2009 at 1:46 pm Gunslingergregi

    lol default you realize you can get a plane ticket almost anywhere in the world for under 1600 right.

    Like


  577. on May 17, 2009 at 1:50 pm Gunslingergregi

    The world is actually a small place now.

    Like


  578. contrarian

    Welmer

    I should probably explain what I liked about LILGRL.

    No need to explain. LILGRL is a girl on the Internet, and that’s enough to make every self-proclaimed alpha PUA here to desperate flirt with her (and write long posts about her), almost as if they have no contact with females in the real world (hmm).

    No, contrarian, my post was mainly to address other guys here. And no, I don’t consider myself an “alpha” ATM. More like an omega. I seriously can’t handle a woman now, and probably won’t be able to for a while longer. After what my ex put me through – false allegations, SWAT team, investigations and all – I feel physically unsafe around women. I haven’t been myself for about a year.

    Like


  579. on May 17, 2009 at 2:06 pm Default User

    Gunslingergregi

    lol default you realize you can get a plane ticket almost anywhere in the world for under 1600 right.

    What made you mention that?

    …And where would you recomend?

    Like


  580. on May 17, 2009 at 2:08 pm lurking and hurking

    default user, there is nothing wrong with it. it’s just making the comments on my favorite blog dull like obsidian’s race talk does. also, watching males on a PUA site fall all over themselves over e-bitches is a little gross–why would a man even talk to a woman that isn’t going to bang him?

    Like


  581. on May 17, 2009 at 2:24 pm Gunslingergregi

    Just sayin whats the big deal you find someone you click with on a blog why not hook up. People limit themselves. Talking like we in grade school or some shit lol In adult land you can travel. he he he

    Like


  582. Gunny: You people with nice passports, you view the world so differently. You people with jobs, you also view the world so differently.

    Like


  583. on May 17, 2009 at 2:43 pm Gunslingergregi

    I’ll always view it differently apparently but I want to convert some dangit lol

    Like


  584. whiskey

    Obsidian –

    First, though I am over-degreed and over-credentialed, like a lot of guys I know I’m working-class in attitudes, origins, and identity. I know quite a lot of folks with the same education but identity as working class. Identity is usually formed by who/what your father was.

    Please explain what you mean by “over-degreed and over-credentialed.” Since you like to develop theories based on demographic data, are you a statistician of some kind?

    Like


  585. on May 17, 2009 at 2:57 pm Default User

    Gunslinger

    Just sayin whats the big deal you find someone you click with on a blog why not hook up

    I reckon there would be less e-flirting if any of the ladies actually expected us to turn up on their doorstep.

    However, I could always head to England to indulge in that “free” healthcare.

    [on her morning rounds]
    And now Doctor Bhetti, the next patient is a Mr. De Fault…

    Like


  586. on May 17, 2009 at 3:02 pm Gunslingergregi

    Well default if you haven’t noticed all the ladies tend to place there email out in the open so it is not like you would have to show up on doorstep. You would not have set it up on the blog. lol

    Like


  587. on May 17, 2009 at 3:02 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    The man’s trouble and I can’t help myself, I’m sorry.

    Jayzus and begorrah. ‘Tis not him. You, woman, are the one that is Trouble, Trouble with a Capital T

    Like


  588. Now Mr. De Fault, inducing a coma with some stolen insulin just to see me is beta.

    Say No To Beta: IT KILLS.

    Like


  589. on May 17, 2009 at 3:34 pm Default User

    Bhetti

    Say No To Beta: IT KILLS.

    No Bhetti it does not kill, but you might (we know what happens luckless beta males that fall into you grasp…

    I would of course come up with an Alpha illness (Priapism?).😉

    Like


  590. Def probably knows where my doorstep is with his H4xx0rz skills.

    Saying No to Betas: IT ALSO KILLS.

    Like


  591. @bhetti – you changed your link. you are very pretty. don’t deny your love for doug. Also, sorry I forgot R&J – silly of me. yoru answers about the tragic lover of literature was good, but … they are the ones that are pased down through the ages. how does that square with your love of romance novels,. the chieesiest of literary genres?

    Like


  592. I’m so not playing the ‘what medical illness is alpha?’ game.

    Like


  593. on May 17, 2009 at 3:43 pm Lawyer from Hell

    doug1

    “If you’re tempted, resist. Have her move in with you first, to try things out.”

    Do NOT have her move in. EVER.

    Like


  594. maurice: The problem is its female. Jane Austen and the Brontes has been passed down too. Fairytales are passed down too, in their happy ending form. I’m sure there’re older examples. It’s viewing them as cheesy (with the feminine voice) therefore inferior that’s the problem and gets some feminists going ‘this is pro-patriarchy!’ and others saying ’embrace it, it is anti-patriarchy!’

    Like


  595. on May 17, 2009 at 3:58 pm Default Troll Hunter

    contrarian (the boring troll)

    If it is so obvious, why are you asking about my experiences?

    Because I was hoping I might tempt you into posting something interesting instead of the boring trolling twaddle that you normally post.

    It seems Lurker is correct. You are nothing more than a boring useless troll. A waste of bandwidth, a waste of screen space, and likely a real-life waste of skin. You have nothing to add here, your contributions are a net negative. We are all worse off for reading them, and poorer for spending any time responding.

    Happy trolling, troll boy.

    Over and out.

    Like


  596. good point about fairy tales, but they are for children, not adults. (same as the truly horrifying, when you think about it, childrens’ fables of the Brothers Grimm.) i guess the point about the tragic lovers is that it’s a trope which is recognized and repeats down the ages. Not like Austen etc. which is an early modern version of chick-lit, which is what the romance novels are cheap descended version of. not judging, just saying. but it lacks the ancient pedigree of the star-crossed lovers.

    Like


  597. on May 17, 2009 at 4:15 pm Gunslingergregi

    That is why to have the true legend fairy tail it has to be love even after death then no matter what happens in this life it is still a happy ending.

    Like


  598. The ‘Alpha of the Month’ made two mistakes :

    1) Of course, returning to the US at all.
    2) This is less obvious, but he clearly learned nothing from living in Indonesia. Indonesia is the world’s largest Muslim country, and while it is quite moderate relative to Saudi Arabia, it still is an Islamic country.

    He should have CONVERTED TO ISLAM. That way, he can get some Islamic groups in the US to try and get him out of his alimony burden by saying it is ‘un-Islamic’.

    Like


  599. on May 17, 2009 at 4:21 pm Gunslingergregi

    Why I tell my woman even after we are dead I’ll still be cuddling with her he he he

    Like


  600. on May 17, 2009 at 4:25 pm Gunslingergregi

    He prob ran out of money. Why you need to find a base income to work with.

    Like


  601. RJS Wrote :

    “Have the business you own or your employer hire and pay your trust (which you control) for your services, ”

    Is this possible, if you are employed by a major corporation?

    What about the benefits (health benefits, etc.)? Those still go onto your social security number.

    Like


  602. Older examples: Princess Bride (which was a translation), from the man himself who brought us R&J: Titiana & Oberon plus some other comedies of his if I remember correctly. This is where I wish I paid more attention to ye olde literature. Did Chaucer do non-tragic?

    Romance as now pro-progressive (apparently, as well as everything) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hillary-rettig/the-eroticization-of-equa_b_201059.html

    I really don’t think Austen invented love stories with happy endings as popular or legendary or a trope out of a vacuum devoid of this.

    I’m not sure what you mean by chick-lit because the definition I know is a certain kind of women’s fiction, which has been recently spawned, around the Sex & the City generation. It can occasionally overlap with romance novels. Romance novels are older than it. Saying ‘not judging’ doesn’t actually invalidate if you do, but at least it declares an intent not to. I could easily say Shakespeare is a cheap descended version of Plato, especially with his sensationalism and plagiarism. When that’s such a silly label, because he did so much for the English language.

    Tood: http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/05/07/maryland-supreme-court-cant-use-islam-excuse-to-escape-alimony/

    Like


  603. Everybody, repeat: Contrarian, you are wrong. You are a troll.

    Why do you even engage with that Omega? Ignore ‘him’.

    Like


  604. Re: pic on my blog. That’s clearly not my pic (I mean, where’s my burqa?).

    Like


  605. Not only are you a troll but pretending to be another troll, whom I loved so dearly (R&J STYLE).

    Like


  606. Obsidian,

    It’s not that White women have complete parity with White men, but that they are more closely matched to White men then NAMs. White women differ from White men by having a narrower IQ standard deviation
    which means that men more heavily populate the outlying regions of both very high and very low intelligence. Larry Summers explained how this would impact the numbers of women in elite institutions like the Ivies where most professors in most the hard sciences and engineering will be at least three standard deviations above the norm, with most being more like 3.5 or 4 above. A similar effect happens with Jews where because of their higher average IQ of around 110, they have very disproportionate numbers, like around 20+%, for the upper reaches above 160 IQ, in spite of being around 2% of the population. Note that very few people are near these levels of IQ, like 1 in several thousand. I’ve seen different discussions of this with most saying that very high IQ is not distributed normally (i.e. with a Gaussian distribution), but instead more people score highly compared to the expected normal distribution.

    As far as the response to Larry Summers, I think the vast majority of HBDers were completely on his side because he articulated one of their standard positions from on-high in our “civil society”, which then responded by rejecting the traditional values of academic freedom, freedom of speech and free inquiry in favor of maintaining the leftist, total equality groupthink (big surprise).

    Could you point out any the HBDers that favored Summer’s attackers because I don’t know of any? All the ones I know of applauded his courageous actions.

    And almost no one within “civil society” will confront the racial IQ difference publicly because they can see what happens to people like famous, brilliant and highly-respected scientific authorities like DNA-co-discovering, Nobel-prize winning, James Watson when he challenged the groupthink, i.e. they’re cast out of “civil society” and forced to renounce their beliefs and grovel obsequiously if they want a chance at “rehabilitation”. So I know of NO university presidents willing to publicly make the analogous argument Summers made for Black-White academic disparities, i.e. the cone of silence reigns.

    I’ve also heard that Black affirmative action tends to help the already elite segment of the Black community more than the lower echelons. There is stratification within the Black community just like among Whites, e.g. Unitarians and Episcopalians are statistically more intelligent, wealthier, powerful, per capita, compared to other segments, like working class Christian traditionalists, etc.

    As far as Ricci and blue collar workers, while SWPLs typically have disdain for working class and blue collar people, I think that is a wrong-headed attitude and actually contradictory with their supposedly caring attitude toward other groups they consider disadvantaged. I think we need to revitalize our manufacturing sector for many reasons, including to provide high quality, skill and wage jobs for average blue collar workers. One great mistake of modern America is embracing a phony economics that has let the elites legally loot our companies to give themselves massive compensation while they marginalize our working and middle class workers, e.g. through massive legal and illegal immigration, outsourcing, offshoring, insourcing, running 800 billion dollar per year trade deficits, socializing costs while privatizing profits (just look the the giant bailouts as the latest egregious example), etc. We need to place human values above purely economic considerations (not that you can ignore economics, but it must be below larger questions, like what core values define our country, cui bono, etc).

    No matter what measures of status a person adopts, there will almost always be other people above him or her, so it seems absurd to get too wrapped up in feelings of superiority towards those below. It seems to me a healthy society would have room for all sorts of people with different values and interests without forcing everybody into a single mold. Ideally we’d build a civil society where everybody could coexist reasonably harmoniously, including all the different racial, ethnic, cultural, class and other distinctions. Unfortunately, that’s not the path we’re on.

    Like


  607. Default User

    Just out of interest. Did you enjoy my (attempted) humorous dissection of your man’s game?

    Yes, No, That was humor?

    It was amusing, but not very funny. Sorry.😛

    He also jokes a lot, and he often likes to be the butt of jokes. The first time we met, he flirted with me in a deliberately horrible way, which turned me off and made me assume he was just one of those guys who flirts with every girl. I carried this assumption for a while before we started getting closer.

    Later when I told him about what I initially thought of him, he said, “Yeah, my stupid flirting… I like keeping things light-hearted. I think the ‘game’ is so silly that I like to make an abberation of it as a sort of ‘joke on me.'” He also said that he had a good intuition about me, but he was sufficiently cynical that he didn’t expect much.

    Hope is one woman relating her story. It would be nice to hear a man relate his non-game experience.

    I think you and everyone else just want to keep giving contrarian a hard time. Though, he also seems to invite it. And you are right. I am just one person — a sample size of one, as people liked to tell me. I’m not trying to make generalizations based on my experience, but I have found “hope,” too.

    contarian

    It’s not like I need to have a girlfriend, and there are plenty of advantages to being alone.

    My guy said something very similar. He said he was not looking to date at all and had come to the point where he was fine with being alone for the rest of his life (!). And he was single for three years, so he obviously meant what he said. I kept talking to him because he was extremely interesting (and I particularly found his voice and attitude attractive). In a way, I kind of came onto him rather than the other way around. With my other relationships, I was usually the one being “pursued,” but this time I actually initiated it and pushed it onward. I had to, because he wasn’t “looking.”

    My advice to you, contrarian, if you will have it. It is true — one does not need to be in a relationship. I think it’s a good idea to develop the self first and become a “whole” person before trying to bring someone else into one’s life. There are lots of great things one can accomplish without a girlfriend/boyfriend or spouse. Letting go of neediness is a very crucial step towards becoming self-actualized, and there’s no need to justify this position.

    However, there is a profound sadness in being lonely and being alone. There might be a “difference” between the two, but the difference is in truth very small.

    From this article:
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande?printable=true

    “Human beings are social creatures. We are social not just in the trivial sense that we like company, and not just in the obvious sense that we each depend on others. We are social in a more elemental way: simply to exist as a normal human being requires interaction with other people. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury.”

    I was an outcast in school, and I was very lonely after I moved here from a different country. A new culture, a new langauge that I didn’t understand or speak, and no friends. I was left home all by myself at 10 years of age, and that intense isolation made me less able to fit in. Even though I had a lot of friends in China, here I felt different, rejected, withdrawn, and consequently I was less desirable. I did not fit into the conventional social groups, but I found a sort of solace with other nerdy types.

    Perhaps you are not yet ready to meet women, but there is no reason why you shouldn’t participate in some meaningful activity that lets you meet more people in general.

    You are nothing more than a boring useless troll. A waste of bandwidth, a waste of screen space, and likely a real-life waste of skin.

    That was not necessary. There is a real person behind each of these glowing screens, a person with flesh and soul, with real emotions and issues and wounds that we sometimes cannot know or see. Just because this is the Internet, and text is the most “impersonal” type of interaction, does not mean that we should disregard this human truth. So-called “trolls” might be using the Internet as a form of social interaction, and even though their interactions can be confrontational and argumentative, it is in truth a subtle signal for help. Remember when Welmer lashed out at the girls here? He was in pain from being kept from his children.

    I used to get upset at negativity and insults online, but now I understand and accept the pain behind those words. I want to try to heal these pains, but I am just one person. All I can do is not reciprocate and send more pain out. There is so much pain in the world… there is no need to add to it.

    Like


  608. Bhetti

    Re: pic on my blog. That’s clearly not my pic (I mean, where’s my burqa?).

    LoL. My lips are sealed. As you know. ygm.

    Like


  609. on May 17, 2009 at 5:29 pm Comment_Whatever

    maurice wrote:

    good point about fairy tales, but they are for children, not adults. (same as the truly horrifying, when you think about it, childrens’ fables of the Brothers Grimm.)

    The Brother’s Grim actually hopelessly Bowderlized the German Fairy tales that they copied. Then they Bowderlized them again.

    This leads to incongruities like Rapunzel, after her banishment from the tower, living with the twins she bore.

    No mention is made how THAT happened, though. Maybe Rapunzel doesn’t remember. Ahem.

    Like


  610. bad-spirited: him picking on wierd specifics (fisking) & stopping short of saying all women are bad quality.

    Like


  611. Hope: And I was in pain from my relative being in hospital when Welmer was lashing out.

    I am sorry to hear that. Is your relative alright? Sometimes, people are unable to keep from lashing out, especially when certain things “trigger” their emotional buttons. People often feel justified in forwarding the pain onward in these cases.

    But just know that living with love, compassion and understanding, you can forgive these transgressions and transmute the darkness with light. Know that for some people, pain is a lesson… one day they, too, will graduate.

    Like


  612. doug: My webresearch skills have failed me. What does ygm mean, if it is not a typo: You get me?

    You can say anything you want, as long as I’m not in-real-life identifiable. (should it bother me if you do?)

    Like


  613. Hope–

    See why I call you a sweetheart?

    Remember when Welmer lashed out at the girls here? He was in pain from being kept from his children.

    Me, me, me. What about me? Did I mention me? He lashed out at me as well or maybe even more. What, I’m a man so I don’t count? I’m all rough and tough?

    Actually, it didn’t much bother me at the time, and it didn’t whatsoever when he spilled about his battles with his ex wife just to see his kids. Sure it would have been stronger if that hadn’t submerged him, but I can sure see how dark that would feel.

    My guy said something very similar. He said he was not looking to date at all and had come to the point where he was fine with being alone for the rest of his life (!). *** In a way, I kind of came onto him rather than the other way around. With my other relationships, I was usually the one being “pursued,” but this time I actually initiated it and pushed it onward. I had to, because he wasn’t “looking.”

    Earlier, before I became distracted by the urge to flirt with Bhetti, that evil temptress (and then doing some real life stuff including sweety stuff), I was ruminating about pointing out to Default (and Contrarian who’d be listening in) that in a way your guy DOES have some natural game. He wasn’t needily chasing after you (or worse fruitlessly and ineffectually after every girl that passes in front of him). Instead he’s just living his own life in a way that to YOU, with your interests and values, demonstrates lots of value.

    Look at it this way (Default, you listening?), game teaches guys how to lure girls, even girls they approach, to partly emotionally chase after them, and certainly to not be supplicants at a girl’s doorstep. You can’t be a high volume lothario by not seeing girls for three year stretches, but by not needily chasing where there’s no interest or not yet any interest, you can attract a quality girl when she comes along. Like you Hope.

    Your guy wasn’t following and he wasn’t needy. He may not be leading some big pack, but that’s not your thing or attraction to men either. His being independent and kind of a lone wolf is.

    Like


  614. Bhetti

    You Got Mail. (I was trying to be subtle. Though nothing of that nature get’s by Default.)

    Like


  615. Hope,

    I used to get upset at negativity and insults online, but now I understand and accept the pain behind those words. I want to try to heal these pains, but I am just one person. All I can do is not reciprocate and send more pain out. There is so much pain in the world… there is no need to add to it.

    Your words remind me of something inspirational that Stan Getz, one of the great jazz saxophonists, once said:

    I believe you should try to make music as beautiful as you can. It should not be done with ugliness. There’s so much hate in the world; you have to counteract it with loveliness.

    Source: The liner notes of Cafe Montmartre.

    Like


  616. You can say anything you want, as long as I’m not in-real-life identifiable. (should it bother me if you do?)

    If that blog pic isn’t of Bhetti, and I’m not saying one way or another, she does look just as hot or hotter, only thinner. It does give an idea.

    Like


  617. Hope: Don’t worry about it, they’re mostly ok for now. It’s life and not something I want to go on about.

    I don’t believe in hate or acting on revenge to any large extent. I do believe in actions that have a function: a deterrent, an appropriate consequence to an inappropriate action. These two mesh but being able to cleanse yourself of poisonous feelings is healthy.

    Negative consequence is an important part of learning, and sometimes, you’re the one who has to provide it.

    Like


  618. on May 17, 2009 at 6:02 pm Default User

    Hope

    I asked: “Just out of interest. Did you enjoy my (attempted) humorous dissection of your man’s game?”

    Hope replied: “It was amusing, but not very funny. Sorry.”

    [quiet crushed little voice] but… but… you are an NF. You are supposed to be… nice.

    Ha! Hope, putting the “J” back in NFJ
    :)

    Actually, your response is as I expected. I figured that you would see it as somehow shallow or lame (as indeed it was). But at least I got a smiley out of you. The thing is, such humor is not a put-on. That is my humor, the real me. So it shows that it takes all types.

    Perhaps I will try anti-game game to see how it works. I will have to study your previous entry to figure it out, but it sounds worth a try (ahh hell, there I go again with my “humor.” See, I can’t help it.)

    That was not necessary. There is a real person behind each of these glowing screens, a person with flesh and soul, with real emotions and issues and wounds that we sometimes cannot know or see.

    I am very aware that there are real people behind screen names. My response was a bit harsh, perhaps. I, and others, have tried to draw contrarian out and received fairly standard “game is not needed” replies. If you look around, you will see that most here are generous and encouraging to other posters (e.g., David Alexander). These posters receive those responses because they engage in some kind of dialogue. Although I give a lot of jokey responses, I rarely “lash out.” Contrarian’s lack of real response or discussion is a waste of the good will that is here. That post was my way of saying that I will no longer spend time with him. Others (including yourself) may, I hope they have success.

    Contrarian
    To make up for my meanness here is a song that shows how we can live without another but having that someone is so much better.

    Since you been gone I can do whatever I want
    I can see whomever I choose
    I can eat my dinner in a fancy restaurant


    But nothing
    I said nothing can take away these blues
    `Cause nothing compares
    Nothing compares to you
    [Lyrics and song]

    PS:
    Hope, you mentioned coincidence. I just happened to hear that song earlier. I thought it apt for this conversation.

    Like


  619. on May 17, 2009 at 6:04 pm Default User

    PS :
    Scroll down for video.

    Like


  620. Arrows–

    No.

    Like


  621. on May 17, 2009 at 6:27 pm Default User

    doug1

    Default, you listening?

    You Got Mail. (I was trying to be subtle. Though nothing of that nature get’s by Default.)

    I never listen, that my problem (I thought we called that asshole/aloof game).😉

    Maybe I do need to recalibrate my humor box. My “dissection” of Mr. Hope’s game was entirely as a joke.

    All that effort and what did it get me? One smiley. As they say: “Epic Fail.”😀

    BTW: Plenty of things of that nature get by me. Seeing my name, now that is likely to catch my eye.

    Like


  622. Default User

    I never listen, that my problem (I thought we called that asshole/aloof game)

    Learning to really listen to girls is a very good game skill to develop. Though there are different styles. That’s part of mine.

    Though understand, listen doesn’t mean listen to what they say. It means listen to what they mean. Listen to their id and ego, not their rational explanatory superego, concerning emotional or motivational things. I.e. what attracts them, what is working, and what makes them tick.

    Listen and look for what’s working with them in other words, either when you’re doing it or someone else is.

    Of course what makes Hope tick and what makes LILGRL tick, both East Asians in ethnicity though both with a lot of American cultural influence, is very different. Though there are a few similarities too. (Born of both of them standing outside American culture to some degree and looking in with intimate knowledge, but doing some picking and choosing, rather than simply falling into one mainstream political or cultural camp or another.)

    Like


  623. Well, Doug, maybe you should check up on what happened to Abelard.

    Like


  624. on May 17, 2009 at 7:20 pm Default User

    doug1

    OK I really, really need to bring that humor circuit to the shop.

    What you describe is closer to my manner. That is I do listen and figure out what makes her tick. I do not run routines (even if I could remember them).

    And asshole game for me just means they get the sharp end of my humor.
    [Long before I ever heard of something called “game,” I always answered “backchat” with humor. Today we would call that passing shit-tests.]

    From my experience the “nerd girl” type seems much more common amongst Asians. I wonder if that is the Asian culture or the effect of being the outsider.

    For sure Hope and LILGRL are very different. I did not really follow LILGRL’s entries, but my impression was she was more… er… pragmatic.

    Actually LILGRL reminds me of one terrible date I had. The only time I have ever walked out on a date.
    [Although the comparison is probably unfair to LILGRL]

    Like


  625. If any of you is interested, there is a polyandry society in the Himalayas… this 30 minutes video talked about them…

    It fascinates me because of the evolution of game in such a society. Cross-cultural game references always interests me.

    http://www.blinkx.com/video/tribal-sex-marriage-pure-love-pure-sex-2008/Bs7plkJOhK61TRAApV_XDA

    Like


  626. Glengary–

    Well, Doug, maybe you should check up on what happened to Abelard.

    Or Heloise.

    Me not he, and we not they, and this not be the early Middle Ages.

    We have other perils, but different ones, for different things.

    Like


  627. Bhetti

    Hope: And I was in pain from my relative being in hospital when Welmer was lashing out. Some people manage to (GASP!) not be asses about it.

    Bhetti, if you’re too tender to handle being flamed, then why are you here?

    This isn’t exactly a gentleman’s ball, after all…

    My grandpa, who worked on ships (destroyers and such) during WWII, once told me a story about a woman who was taking the bus to her “Rosie the Riveter” job. The bus was full, so she looked around at all the men sitting down, then whined: “won’t somebody give up his seat for a lady?” One of the other workers on the bus looked her right in the eye and asked: “you’ve got a man’s job, don’t you?” She nodded, and he simply said “then you can stand like a man.”

    It’s the same with you. Don’t expect any privileges here for being a woman — you’ve got more than enough elsewhere.

    Like


  628. on May 17, 2009 at 7:58 pm Default User

    LILGRL

    Awesome! It’s nice to know that there’s at least one (if only one) person in this world who thinks of me as “pragmatic.”

    Just don’t let it go to your head.😉

    Like


  629. @ Default

    “Just don’t let it go to your head. ;)”

    Don’t worry, I’ve got the other 6,769,999,999 people to keep me grounded.

    Like


  630. The fact is that LILGRL, who’s a hottie, was a generous flirter around here when she decided to go that way one evening, starting out by becoming all open about a bunch of things.

    She was gentile and humorous in how she fended off even crude “admit you’re hot for me” kinds of flirting from what soon became a swarm of 5 or 6 guys at once, and made most (all?) of the guys who attempted or “practiced” on her have fun and feel good.

    That’s both real skillful and sweet. She says she likes win win and being nice – “really I do”.

    Well, if you aren’t trying to beat her up, it seems to me on the evidence so far, that’s pretty undeniable.

    Like


  631. It’s nice to know that there’s at least one (if only one) person in this world who thinks of me as “pragmatic.”

    In male-female relations, women are naturally pragmatists, and men are naturally romantics. You know this.

    It’s only when “women” like FeministX put that pragmatism into explicit terms that we get freaked out.

    Speaking of, does anyone else get the impression that FeministX is the sort of weird woman who would, like, name her daughter “Fata Morgana” and chant incantations to help her landa husband, despite her ostensibly 100% pragmatic exterior?

    Like


  632. on May 17, 2009 at 8:28 pm Default User

    LILGRL

    Don’t worry, I’ve got the other 6,769,999,999 people to keep me grounded.

    Ya see, you are a pragmatist.

    Like


  633. on May 17, 2009 at 8:29 pm Default User

    doug1

    She was gentile and humorous

    Did someone say she was Jewish?

    [da da tsssh]

    Like


  634. @Default, 87

    “Ya see, you are a pragmatist.”

    Didn’t say I wasn’t…

    Like


  635. Welmer: Nope, I was fine, which was why I didn’t bring it up then. Was just making a point about balance here and idealism.

    If it’s wrong, it’s wrong: being in pain doesn’t justify it or justify people not taking actions to correcting the behaviour. That is talking about in general and not you in specific, which I will try not to bring it up again.

    I made LILGRL lol. My game owns you all.

    Like


  636. on May 17, 2009 at 8:45 pm Default User

    LILGRL

    This is better that you expected. Three people (including yourself) now believe in your pragmatism.

    Hope, contrarian

    See how we encourage people here.
    😉

    Like


  637. on May 17, 2009 at 8:46 pm Default User

    Bhetti said:

    My game owns you all.

    But we already knew that.

    Like


  638. on May 17, 2009 at 8:52 pm Steve Johnson

    doug1

    “The fact is that LILGRL, who’s a hottie…”

    No. She’s pretty much average. (But sort of weird looking). Femx is way better looking and she’s not exactly hot herself.

    Like


  639. Steve Johnson

    Femx is way better looking

    Cough. Sputter.

    Though make no mistake. My forum lust remains focused on Bhetti.

    Like


  640. >He should have CONVERTED TO ISLAM. That way, he can >get some Islamic groups in the US to try and get him
    >out of his alimony burden by saying it is ‘un-Islamic’.

    first: DISCLAIMER – everyone I actually know who is a muslim (and there are hundreds) is actually pretty cool.

    I hope this bullshit never holds sway here in US courts. Islamic law is even shittier than many of the the other mythological fairy tale non-thinking systems that pollute our world like virgin-mary bullshit, gaia-worship, and PC feminism. I’d like to see the “Grey lady” regularly shits on these rag heads just as much as it shits on red necks for a change.

    Like


  641. OK the weekend is coming to the end. Indeed it is already over for some.

    Time for one last bit of silliness.

    First thing: I need to apologize for that sappy video of that sappy 10cc song posted up thread. I know it was posted as a joke, but what was I thinking? To ensure that I do not become a Beta of the Month nominee I created version of the same song with some buddies. This is how real gamers would perform 10cc – I am Not In Love

    It is or soon will be Monday, Blue Monday

    Like


  642. Def: Resend, plz.

    Like


  643. Default —

    Even I think you’re kinda adorable.

    Which is —- disturbing.

    With just a bit of tweek you could have mean game. Of a sort. Not the macho sort. Kind of a hipster, creative geek sort.

    Creatively joke and entice like you do. But then HOLD BACK. Tease her to ask instead of inundating her with your output.

    It all goes to viscerally sending neediness instead of being in demand because of your awesomeness, what you can do.

    Wait, what? Am I schooling you to resume having success with Bhetti????

    What the hell is wrong with me?

    Like


  644. on May 17, 2009 at 9:42 pm Comment_Whatever

    LILGRL said:

    In fact, as the quote you’ve procured is one where I am basically agreeing with two other male posters, it would seem that you’re singling me out because I’m female.

    You can call me an evil bitch-beater if you like, LILGRL. I did ask Whiskey about his ‘Do Nothing’ post on cuckolding. I asked if he even HAD boundaries.

    I’ll ask it again if you like. Whiskey, do you have any boundaries on a woman’s behavior that will actually provoke a response?

    And here LILGRL repeats what I said she believed again:

    Because even if I were to go out of my way specifically to make his life suck — well, not only is that kind of childish, but it’s also a pretty blatant display of how much his hurting me has affected my life.

    But LILGRL used a sneaky rhetorical device. How clever.

    I’m glad you know how to push men’s ‘I-am-a-good-girl’ buttons, LILGRL. Good for you.

    87 wrote:

    In male-female relations, women are naturally pragmatists, and men are naturally romantics. You know this.

    It’s only when “women” like FeministX put that pragmatism into explicit terms that we get freaked out.

    How DO you carry that huge pedestal around, 87? Doesn’t it hurt your back a little?

    I mean, man, think about your old age. You are ruining your knees.

    Like