Despite my well-researched and logically unassailable warnings to the contrary, some of you who read me will someday decide to marry the woman of your best available options. If you do insist on acting in such a personally disadvantageous way, you should at least pop the question like an alpha male. That’s how you set a precedent.
Here are some suggestions.
Alpha move
“Whaddaya say we get hitched?”
Superalpha move
“Whaddaya say we get hitched, my number one bitch?” Then slip this ring on her finger:
If your woman is not willing to wear a ring with the diamond on the inside, away from public view, then you’ll have all the proof you need that she is a grubby status whore. This ring is pure deviousness; there is no way out for her. She can’t accuse you of cheapness; the diamond is in there. And if she wears it she can’t go around advertising her ring finger for inspection by all of her yenta friends to show that she is prettier than them to be able to land a man with discretionary cash to blow on a useless rock. I would almost be willing to spend cash money on this diamond ring just to see the look on my beloved’s face.
Alpha move
Walk up behind her, wrap your arms around her, lean over her shoulder, and while placing the ring box into her hand whisper in your deepest, most gravelly voice: “Let’s do this.”
Superalpha move
Same as above, but instead of an engagement ring box, put two tickets to Vegas and a brochure for the Elvis Chapel in her hand.
Alpha move
“You know, I never thought I’d hear myself saying this, but… ah fuck it, let’s go crazy and get married, babe.”
Superalpha move
“You know why I’m asking you to marry me? Cause you’re the kind of girl who would sign a pre-nup. That’s what I cherish about you.”
Alpha move
“How long we been together? Five years? Ten years? It’s time…” Slide the ring box over to her.
Superalpha move
“May as well dot the i’s and cross the t’s and get married already.”
Alpha move
Take her to a secluded nature spot. Dance with her under the clear moonlight. Gaze into her eyes and slip the ring on her finger, saying nothing.
Superalpha move
Take her to a secluded nature spot. Dance with her under the clear moonlight. Gaze into her eyes and slip a handcrafted origami paper ring on her finger. Tell her “You know you want it, babe.”
Alpha move
“Marry me, lovechop.”
Superalpha move
“Marry me, dirty whore.”
You’ll note that the common theme to these examples is the refusal to drop to one knee or to ask for her hand in the traditional (read: beta) way. There is no “Will you marry me?” nauseating pleading, and there is certainly no doing it on your knees like the indentured servant you are about to become by agreeing to ratify your copulations with a marriage license.
Some alpha males get married for social or religious reasons, and for them following my proposal advice above will go a long way toward ensuring they enjoy many years of grateful wifery and minimal backtalk. But for the truly self-aware alphas who have transcended petty societal concerns and stifling tradition, marriage is seen for what it is — a self-inflicted prison sentence to curb one’s masculine allure. These men will never worry about when or how to propose, for the issue has been rendered moot by clear thinking.
Superduperalpha move:
*Punches her in eye* SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE.
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most beta wedding proposal scenarios:
jumbotron at sporting events
at a gathering of family and/or friends
using a airplane and large banner
at a restaurant
all involve coercion and rely on the social safety provided by other people to ensure she says yes. so if you’re going to do it, keep it private.
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funny.
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Only marry her if she has a GNP.
Peter
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“I had a very interesting lunch with George Costanza today.”
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“And if she wears it she can’t go around advertising her ring finger for inspection by all of her yenta friends to show that she is prettier than them to be able to land a man with discretionary cash to blow on a useless rock.”
Seeing girls do this on a weesh “girls night out” is one of the most cringe worthy events I can think of.
Every time I see this I want to grab a fork off a passing busboys tray and stab the nearest beta in the middle of the restaurant.
But I usually excuse myself, take a deep breath, relax and go spark up a smoke instead, to keep me out of the electric chair.
Who said smoking cigarettes isn’t healthy?
– MPM
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all these super alpha proposal moves and not one that involves pulling out your junk…
VK, where are you on this one?
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“Marry me, lovechop” sounds beta to me.
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I agree with J R, a super alpha proposal would happen under a moonlight where you have just piledriven your cock into her woo-ha.
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Iron Rule of Tomassi #11
If you must propose marriage to a prospective wife, NEVER show her the ring before she replies to your proposal. Keep it in the ring box and do not open it until she affirms or denies you. This is the best litmus test you can deliver to any woman you’d “forsake all others” for. It could be a 32 Karat rock or a Chinese finger prison, the point is she doesn’t see it before she answers.
It should also go without saying that any chump stupid enough to comply with a woman’s request to go shopping for a wedding ring post-proposal should be required to tattoo the word “beta” across his forehead as a permanent reminder to himself of his status. She’ll always have the ring she picked out to reminder her.
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Best alphamove of all:
“Marriage?”
Double middle finger, kick to stomach, STUNNER_BY_GAWD!!!!!!1!!!!!!, crack beer, walk out with arms raised, shaking head.
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The only marriage I would participate in would be an “unmarriage”. I have some friends who are “unmarried”. She wears a gold band on her left hand signifying she is taken, but she is not in fact legally married.
1. Cheap
2. Time Saving
3. No prenup, no lawyers
4. No divorce.
5. Number of guys hitting on your girl are reduced. She is less hassled.
6. Keeps people from asking “When are you guys going to get married?”
7. It’s socially incorrect. Radical!
8. Gives the same feeling of “security” without the suffocating aspects of legal marriage.
9. Either can end it at a moments notice.
10. Fill in the blank.
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Against all better judgement, I may be popping the question in the next 4-6 months; this is good counsel. I’ll probably just slide the ring on and say something snarky and watch her swoon. Then she signs the pre-nup.
She makes more than me, a lot more, so I will take her to the cleaners should it go that way.
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all involve coercion and rely on the social safety provided by other people to ensure she says yes.
But oh, the punishing, punishing public loss of face if she says no…
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So basically my gun prenump with the first wife makes me super alpha then.
Yea I pretty assume any woman I actually date I could marry.
Neither time I have gotten married have I bought an engagemeant ring unless you consider the gold band an engagement ring.
Ok I simped out a little and bought the second a shitload of gold but I think it looks hot on her. Plus always cash on hand basically for any emergency. Diamond a lot harder to get money back on.
Plus last night the woman I am with for a moment proposed to me in front of her whole family talking about getting divorced and marrying me. Everyone cheered lol Kids like yay gregs gonna be my daddy.
Yea I was laughing he he he
Got to say it has been fun having an instant family to practice on. Learning experience for sure.
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These were the elements used to create our matching husband/wife wedding rings:
–jewelry grad student friend
–“found” gold from a funeral home desk drawer (father-in-law a funeral director)
— purchased diamonds from estate jewelry
Total cost = $1200 for two rings, and They. Are. Fabulous.
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hypothecary — If you’re shacking up and/or having kids with the un-wife, you are NOT legally protected; in fact, in many states the split-up would be pretty much as ugly as a divorce, financially, shold she choose to make it so (she will) — FYI.
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Or set up an elaborate wedding and then cancel that shit when ya get there as a final test of her problem solving skills and her ability to allow you to lead the family in all things where you decide to. he he he
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Hypothecary:
That’d be considered a Common Law marriage, and you’d still be susceptible to a divorce with no pre-nup
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hypothecary:
“The only marriage I would participate in would be an “unmarriage”. I have some friends who are “unmarried”. She wears a gold band on her left hand signifying she is taken, but she is not in fact legally married.
1. Cheap
2. Time Saving
3. No prenup, no lawyers
4. No divorce.
5. Number of guys hitting on your girl are reduced. She is less hassled.
6. Keeps people from asking “When are you guys going to get married?”
7. It’s socially incorrect. Radical!
8. Gives the same feeling of “security” without the suffocating aspects of legal marriage.
9. Either can end it at a moments notice.
10. Fill in the blank.”
This would make you married in a lot of states under the idea of a common law marriage and you would be just as hosed as a “real marriage without a prenup”
Any man that does this just tricked himself in getting his nuts chopped off. Way to go Wiley E Coyote!
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Have a baby by me baby be a millionaire
Have a baby by me baby be a millionaire
Have a baby by me baby be a millionaire
be a millionaire be a millionaire
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I had never before thought of the social dynamic nature of the rock. Thanks.
There’s a similar function in the the expenditure & extravagance of the wedding and reception. Can’t tell you how many couples I see blow a wad on the above and then struggle afterward to come up with a down payment on a house! Makes no sense. Nor does the couple connect the two events.
I do see the social function of exchanging vows in front of families and friends. The PUBLIC part of the ceremony is part of the social function of marriage. But there’s a fine line. Somewhere in between just the two of you eloping to Vegas on the one hand vs. hosting with six foot ice sculptures while white swans shit in your swimming pool on the other, lies the happy medium.
Happy is the man who finds a woman who cares more about the man she’s marrying than the shallow people she will temporarily impress.
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OK, why do ‘alphas’ want to get married?
Why do the one thing that will give a woman such massive legal and social leverage over you? even with a prenup, you are not safe.. laws can be rewritten, reinterpreted or just broken.
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Just marry a girl from one of those countries where a simple gold band is the culture’s traditional wedding ring.
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Not sure I ‘want’ to get married, but, unlike Our Dark Lord R, I do not savor a middle age without a wife. I’m very selective, and fully intend to keep mistresses on the side, but the possible bride is easily controlled and basically very kind (for a woman, ie evil sociopathic bitch) and, really, she can take care of me financially. Not a bad deal. I travel a lot, that will keep my dick busy and the marriage fresh. Plus, unlike R, I actually *do* want to have a couple sons to pass on the genes, have someone to teach Game to.
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But like a good girl on the proposal she has internalized my message of my life and told the kids he’s not gonna leave his wife trust me. No way hes gonna leave his wife you don’t even know.
More like expression of a dream. Cute though.
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‘Alpha’ males marry, and beta-tization begins. Good, no-strings sex stops at the first bite of the wedding cake. Offering your balls on a silver platter by signing the contract and hoping she doesn’t cash out 5, 10 or 20+ years later.
Real alphas refuse to marry in this day and age. They say an emphatic ‘NO’ to Marriage 2.0. You don’t commit to any one woman – putting all your eggs into one vagina basket is a very bad idea. Diversify your assets.
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”””””’have someone to teach Game to.””””””’
Yea it’s fucked up that it has been made so difficult to just have kids with a woman and come up with how to raise them all on your very own without the state having to intervene on everything dealing with relationship. No longer adults no longer children.
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Spunk: Definitely true in general. I have a half-dozen women now, I’ll trim that down to 2-3 when/if I get married. So we’ll see. I know the law, well, and I know women, well. My expertise in mind-fucking will keep me ahead of the wife — otherwise I would never even contemplate marriage. Growing old with Ukrainian hookers sounds good now — later, I doubt it.
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KR
What you’re saying is mostly not true. Only 11 states recognize common law marriages. Generally living together alone is not enough; you have to also hold yourself out as married to everyone or most people. Just what that means varies by state. Her wearing a wedding right though to send the message she’s taken is gonna be evidence. Again only in common law states. (But once you’re considered common law hitched in one state, another will enforce the marriage (i.e. her divorce theft) even though it won’t itself create a common law marriage in the first place. NY and Cali do not create common law marriages.
Palimony exists in Cali and I believe also NJ. Maybe a few other places. It’s based upon an oral promise to support the woman “no matter what”, etc. Cali even developed the theory of a “constructive promise” largely to get around proof problems. However a written agreement that there is no ongoing promise of support if the relationship ends (and that the written agreement can only be changed by a later written agreement, not orally) ought to be enough to defeat a palimony lawsuit. It’s sure worth doing in a palimony state even without hiring lawyers. (Not NY.)
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Unrelated, but interesting, discussion.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9zysp/i_am_a_major_character_in_the_game_a_nyt/
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Doug1 — If you’re wearing rings, playing house, buying property together, etc — in any CL state, you better get a dayum good lawyer when it ends. Probably won’t help much anyway.
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lol @ the ring.
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KR–
I don’t agree with you.
In every state that recognizes common law marriages the parties had to intend to be treated as married. The concept is they just didn’t bother with the formalities. Various other requirements come in, generally a period of cohabitation and usually telling most other people that you’re married. In some states it can only be used posthumously (e.g. New Hampshire); i.e. never for divorce purposes.
If you have a simple written agreement that you don’t wish to be legally treated as married despite living together and that there is no support or other financial obligation from one to the other regardless of what you might be pleased to do voluntarily, I think that’s gonna do it.
Safest thing would be to get fullly lawyered up on both sides, do full financial disclosures, say the above type stuff but then do a prenup as well in effect in case it is considered a marriage at any time in the future. That will also cost you. If enough money’s at stake, by all means do it.
But as I said, at least as of today I think a simple writing would work. Because it destroys the theory of mutual intent at the time of the presumed moment of marriage.
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T1000: “Just marry a girl from one of those countries where a simple gold band is the culture’s traditional wedding ring.”
Note that Brazil is one of these countries.
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””””’Not gonna get that without a ring, IMHO.”””””
You can get anything you want.
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The proposal ideas are in the right direction and pretty credited.
The ring idea is pure crap. Come on, even a greater beta could see the potential to swoop a girl forced to where that thing away from her husband. If you do decide to get hitched’, I think part of it is not publicly humilating her (privately is obviously a different story by far). My rambling point being that if you treat your wife like crap openly, you will open the door to let others do so. A wife wearing that ring will soon have about 20 cocks in her on a monthly basis.
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Can someone link me the store’s website where I can buy this ring?
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Please understand…I’m not adovacating a big ring, or even a ring at all…just not something that will spell “I have no self respect” across your wife’s hand.
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Gosh, that ring is the ugliest one i have ever seen, it tells that you despise your woman even before you got married, do not marry if this is the best idea that came to your mind.
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Hey people, what’s lovechop? Urban Dictionary doesn’t know it.
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@ biktopia- agreed.
nevermind the proposals… that ring steals the show.
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I thougt the super alpha move at the Lincolin Memorial Reflecting pool would be to do her doggy style while alternately dunking her head under the water and pulling her hair.
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I like Tomassi’s rule. A lot.
If I go that route again, I think that will be it (integreated into the rest of the sort of Alpha scenario outlined above).
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Waste of a good diamond. Part of the point of engagement rings is that they’re beautiful, even if useless. Of course they often do involve status-whoring…but if you want to avoid that element why not try a pretty-but-cheap gemstone? even an antique one? If you can tell your fiancee that it’s 200 years old you’ll get brownie points of the SWPL kind (if that doesn’t bother you too much) without having to spend lots of money.
I, aliasclio, Muse of History, have spoken.
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Super alpha move:
Hey baby, from now on, you’ll be my 3rd wife. Just nod. Okay, alice, and becky, cindy’s official. Let’s go and have a foursome again.
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”””””””’Gregory Magarshak
Super alpha move:
Hey baby, from now on, you’ll be my 3rd wife. Just nod. Okay, alice, and becky, cindy’s official. Let’s go and have a foursome again.
””””””””””
I’m gonna copy that shit for my 3rd.
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Even gonna make them change their names.
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guns–
hahahahahahahahahaha
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I fucking hate diamonds.
Romantic: I actually got a visual on that…too funny.
An alternate option would be a shag amongst the Korean War soldiers memorial if craving privacy.
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I’m not an Obama fan, but he did have a good proposal line when he pulled out the ring for Michelle.
“That sort of shuts you up, doesn’t it?”
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Remeber key is to make them work towards being financially independant then maybe rewarding them with marriage. Dangle that carrot to get results.
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As for a wedding ring, if you’re gonna get married, I agree with Madras.
I agree with AliasClio here:
There truing is something really disstasteful about entering into the size of diamond ring competition. However getting some just ok almost automatically enters that competition but loses – at least in the eyes of some other girls. It will require defensive noises by your wife, particularly if you marry her when older and not just starting out.
Best solution is to buy some other gemstone, not a diamond. A black ruby for example. Something a little unusual. Mind, make it a very pretty and elegant setting, probably with little diamonds (which are cheap) around it, setting it off. The result will cost similar to a relatively small (not tiny) and diamond (don’t cheap out too much), but be 1) much prettier; 2) much more creative and interesting; 3) will give her a much more comfortable story, when she’s asked. (“He wanted to do something more unusual and creative than simply a very big rock. Implies expensive, no?”) As well other women will be interested in it and most won’t really know how much it costs.
Of course you need some taste to go this route.
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Alpha:
Well, its about time I made an honest woman of you
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Obviously she’s not going to say “implies expensive”. Ending quote mark in wrong place.
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Alpha:
Well, i suppose its about time I make an honest woman out of you
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to hell with lawyers, to hell with papers, to hell with rings and churches. TOW. THE. LINE.
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Doug —
I agree with this — especially because the diamond market is so inflated. If you’re paying big bucks for a diamond, you’re getting ripped off. Sapphires, rubies, and emeralds are all more valuable and rarer than diamonds of comparable cut/clarity/weight, though not as expensive.
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I never asked my old lady to marry me. When it was time for me to move back to the U.S., I said, “You’re coming with me right? Because I guess we’re gonna have to get married for you to stay there [in the U.S].”
We don’t have wedding rings, although she sometimes talks about buying a cheap band to ward off dudes who hit on her.
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I don’t see how, barring exceptional circumstances such as being a death row inmate or an illegal alien, marriage could be considered anything other than an unconditional surrender on the part of a man.
It is human equivalent of being ritually mounted. It is the penultimate act of submission.
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Some men – Alphas even – desire a stable monogamous homelife, with children who are legitimate. It is often a religious thing. That does not make a man non-Alpha (but it is a real risk).
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LIL
Yeah the diamond market is seriously rigged by the DeBeers managed worldwide cartel. That’s at the genuine international wholesale level. Then whole other levels of sorta wholesale (NY diamond market) and retail are tacked on.
Serious rip off for sure, which anyone finds out if they try to resell a big rock a year later.
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KR, Tallerand, Celtic:
I’ll take my chances on the “unmarriage” rather than a “real” one, but as you state if you’re with someone long enough the law comes and sticks it’s head in your business calling it common law marriage with all the same nasty risks of a “real” marriage. Well dears, life has risks, so the only sure thing is to kill yourself I guess.
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“For me – if I was ever had a moment of weakness and proposed – it would be a soda-can ring proposal, followed by a quick trip to the licensing office, and back in time to watch the football.”
—they allow inter-species marriage in Kiwiland?
Don’t settle for just one. Take the whole flock, baby!
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WHATS LOVECHOP????!!!1111oneone
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Who here thinks the groom is supposed to pay for the wedding? Am I just out of the loop?
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Doug1 — You’re correct, sort of. If a guy can get a gal to agree to all that in writing … well, good luck. Not gonna get that without a ring, IMHO.
If she’s angry enough, she’ll get a lawyer to wear you down financially and emotionally. If you’re in a CL state, must be careful, esp if the LTR goes on for years and you’ve been acting like husband and wife, de facto.
I do NOT want readers to think that something silly like “un-marriage” will protect them from much of anything.
A hard rule to learn: angry woman + money for attorneys + shark-lawyers = much trouble, NO MATTER WHAT the facts are. By the time the truth is out, you’re broke.
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harsh lurker…
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Hmm, I would have thought you would wait for her to ask. Then get plain wedding bands. No diamonds.
Don’t forget the pre-nup.
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Fuck a prenump make dam sure you save money before you get married.
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@LILGRL – i always thought it was the bride’s family who is supposed to pay for the ceremony. a throwback to the ancient custom of dowries, I guess.
years ago i got one of those Internet humor mails entitles “if men ruled the world” or something like that. One of the items was – in lieu of a diamond engagement ring, it would be acceptable to present your fiancee with one of those big foam hands that say “You’re Number One!!” 🙂
a fair amount of posts recently on the subject of marriage … hmm….
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forget about marriage, i think the diamond on the inside ring would be an excellent pickup prop. show it to a girl and say “this ring helps me weed out girls who are materialistic.” run with it.
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I hope you could afford the real cubic zirconium when you get engaged 🙂
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maurice —
that was my point, yeah. i feel like a lot of guys on here think that the ceremony/reception is coming out of their pocket…but maybe i’m wrong.
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SRSLY
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“Superalpha move
Take her to the reflecting pond in front of the Lincoln Memorial. Dance with her under the clear moonlight. Gaze into her eyes and slip a handcrafted origami paper ring on her finger. Tell her “You know you want it, babe.”
Superalpha move
“Marry me, dirty whore.”
Actually, if either of these came with a normal looking ring, it would be hot.
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Backdoorman, where is your wife from?
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ok, well in my experience it’s still the bride’s family/parents that pay for the wedding. at least in the circles i run in/the bubble i live in, no grooms will be springing for even part of the reception/ceremony. my parents would most certainly be insulted if my fiance wanted to pay for the wedding.
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Ultra Alpha Move
“My attorney will be in touch with the prenup. Sign it, and you’re in.”
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No knee, no question. ‘Marry me’ (no question mark) and the ring. Simple. I’m happy with my efforts.
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What lurker said!
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well, i live in a different world, i’ll freely admit that. and i’ll honestly probably not experience much more of weddings than the “bride’s-parents-pay-experience”, so yeah.
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Never has any post produced less of a gina tingle than this. In fact, this post undoes the effect of many past gina tingles.
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NOt only should the bride pay, her sister and mother and girlfriends should be included in the wedding-night package.
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@ T-1000,
My wife is from South America. But that alone doesn’t make her a good woman. There are a lot of gold diggers in her country, especially among attractive girls. And if they grow up rich, they expect a life of privilege and frivolity no matter where they live. That eliminated a lot of girls I knew and dated, because I knew they wouldn’t adjust to the lifestyle I envisioned for myself. The woman I married understood what I wanted, and she wanted the same thing for herself. So far, so good.
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I can assure LILGRL that the groom is expected to pick up part of the expense, even when the bride’s parents are:
1. Loaded.
2. Insist on a VERY expensive wedding.
The groom’s parents do not want to mess up the relationship their son has with his new in-laws.
Listen, marriage is bad deal for men in our social and legal milieu. All the men in my social circle who are getting married are marrying women who they will not be supporting (she makes her own, good income.)
Poor girls need not apply.
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I actually like most of the “alpha” proposals. But the “superalpha” proposals, eh, not so much.
Why try to sh*t test a woman that you love enough to propose to?
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Oh yeah, and that “the diamond ring is inside” piece of junk is ridiculous. Why even buy a diamond if youre not gonna show it off?
I think non-traditional, i.e non-diamond, rings are just as beautiful as diamonds, if not more so.
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joel,
ok, well as i stated above, i do not have tons of experience with weddings, and i live in a “different world”. that said, my groom, at least, would not be expected to pay for anything in the wedding ceremony/receptions, except for his tux and possibly the tuxes/furnishings of his groomsmen.
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Ah but we need a follow up post.
For the acceptance of the proposal is one thing, but the ceremony itself is a beast in its own right.
Once soon-to-be- wifey has accepted your inverted diamond ring alpha proposal, what happens when the “Bridzilla Revisted” manifests itself in the woman you stupidly thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with?
The institution of marriage itself is one thing (however flawed), but the institution of the “Wedding Day Ceremony” and the lead up to that does must have driven many men to wonder who the stupid cunt was that invented wedding ceremonies.
For me – if I was ever had a moment of weakness and proposed – it would be a soda-can ring proposal, followed by a quick trip to the licensing office, and back in time to watch the football.
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It doesn’t really matter or shouldn’t matter how you propose if you’re confident enough of her to propose.
Just do it the way you want to and the way it pleases you.
If it was a man I wanted to marry, it wouldn’t matter. It’s not even really in my culture to have rings. I’d be insanely overjoyed at finally being his.
The main and important point is being the man she wants to marry.
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More so, every time. A piece of jewelry should be a work of art and an expression of promises. It’s sad for me to think women fantasise about boring and generic ring styles; status over beauty is losing the capacity to truly dream. I would’ve expected fantasies about heirlooms and ‘this belonged to my grandma. My grandfather and her stayed together 60 years.’
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If she accepts a cheap ring (or no ring), she’ll agree to a cheap ceremony. The lawyer for my prenup cost more than the ceremony….the latter cost me $100, for the judge to make a housecall.
I agree about testing her for materialism. Ideally, you will know what she is like by virture of dating her for an extended period, but if she surprises you by insisting on some fairytale wedding, especially if you don’t want one, you really must do a gut check, because it is, in all likelihood, a sign of things to come.
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But what if you really want to have children? At that point, your only option is to suck it up or to move to some third-world country with man-friendly divorce laws.
Or objectively and dispassionately observe your prospective wife’s temperament, moral character, and family history before taking the enormous risk that is marriage in this day and age, before you decide to propose.
And than, once the wedding is over, and you begin to settle into married life, you MUST persevere with a strict discipline in maintaining the dominant position in your relationship dynamics, and you must never take it for granted that your woman NEEDS to be gamed on a regular basis to keep the “romance” of the relationship alive. This decreases the chances of being emasculated and raped in divorce court dramatically.
It’s difficult for most, but it can be done.
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Sabril if I would have done my original plan in my first marriage it might of worked out or I wouldn’t have married her in first place. Already had hypothesis of how to get rich at 18. Now I just fucked up and listened to the woman instead of following her actions. I married with the stated premise that she would work and save her income while we lived on my income. After we were married she had no desire to work. Now if I would have had the criteria that we had to save a couple hundred k or be financially independant from income from real estate before we got married then I wouldn’t have got married or she would have performed to the standard I had set. I think that could be a way that you can get married in the states if you create before you get married. Then after nothing matters does it if neither of you have to work.
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“Never has any post produced less of a gina tingle than this. In fact, this post undoes the effect of many past gina tingles.”
—things we don’t care about: how a lying dumb ugly dyke’s vajayjay feels.
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Faced with the kind of anti-logic that marriage represents in 2009 and beyond, I feel that true ‘Alpha’ males need to consult a stock analyst or read up on the stock market to understand the inherent lack of merit in lifetime investments before visiting the local priest or J.O.P.
Diversification of one’s portfolio is one of the fundamentals of prosperous wealth accumulation, whereas blind risk is commonly frowned upon.
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”””””””Or objectively and dispassionately observe your prospective wife’s temperament, moral character, and family history before taking the enormous risk that is marriage in this day and age, before you decide to propose.”””””””
But you can’t know what it will be like after marriage unless you produce something before marriage. Fuck hope that it will work out. Make sure it does.
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Not expecting anything from woman other than pussy is the downfall. But yea that pussy better fucking be good too.
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For the record I don’t mind much about diamonds etc.. but I would like for my groom to spend time choosing a ring or having one made. To me that means he cares a lot for me 🙂 I would prefer to spend money on a long honeymoon anyway.
*got that default*
Oh, and personally, I’m not a fan of big weddings either. A waste of money considering most people get divorced a few years later and can’t for the wedding with cash. Save the money(30k) for a downpayment on an affordable condo or house.
gunslingergregi
Well its all out now chic lol
Yup, but Tupac called it first.
Anyway, that was a joke and nothing more.
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“Or objectively and dispassionately observe your prospective wife’s temperament, moral character, and family history before taking the enormous risk that is marriage in this day and age”
Actually I think that’s not a bad option either. But if you want a woman who is (1) reasonably smart; (2) of European descent; and (3) not a religious nut, then the pickings are rather slim.
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feministx.blogspot.com
Never has any post produced less of a gina tingle than this. In fact, this post undoes the effect of many past gina tingles.
Who cares you bugged eyed, buck toothed dyke.
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Bhetti said: I would’ve expected fantasies about heirlooms and ‘this belonged to my grandma. My grandfather and her stayed together 60 years.’
If a man gave me a ring that had been in his family over 60 years and belonged to his Grandma I would DEFINITELY know that ring meant way more to him than anything you could purchase at Zareds.
And I would dare say that any woman who felt differently would NOT be a keeper for a man.
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Pupu’s ideal proposal is something like “baby, if you feel like it, we can stop by the city hall any day to tie the knot. No rush.”
No ring is needed.
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that was my point, yeah. i feel like a lot of guys on here think that the ceremony/reception is coming out of their pocket…but maybe i’m wrong.
actually, because of the enormously wasteful expense, most weddings are paid for by the groom and bride’s family equally. it’s been this way for a while.
so, yes, it’s a hit to a guy’s wallet, especially if his parents or his fiancee’s parents are not wealthy.
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Pupu is not married already? Thought you were.
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No, Gunny, pupu is not married and has never been.
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The best proposal is unique and meaningful to you both. In line with your relationship and how it works, playing on the best memories of you together so far: places, words, actions, names you give her. Highlighting and reminding of the million reasons you’re so amazing together and will be.
You can’t and probably shouldn’t apply a universal rule for this one.
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SRSLY!!!
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… What about the universal rule of “don’t propose during football games”?
Either she hates football and won’t like the proposal or loves it and is pissed at you for distracting her.
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LILGRL–
There isn’t a shadow of a doubt that in Anglosphere countries the bride’s father is supposed to pay for the wedding soup to nuts. I believe the same is true on the Continent and in Spanish America as well, but less sure of that. The groom is supposed to pay for the honeymoon, soup to nuts. There’s no wiggle room here that wasn’t created in the last few decades.
However, sure, if the groom makes or has big and his gorgeous but poorish bride’s family doesn’t, he might pick up a lot of it. But that’s a HUGE favor kind of thing. Above and beyond. However for him to accommodate bridezilla expectations in this case is bad. Really sets the wrong tone of why she wanted him.
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alpha+marriage=beta (in time)
It did to me!
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Most obnoxious behavior in LSB’s opinion:
girls who try to bond with other girls talking about, “What type of engagement ring do you want?” Or even worse, “How do you want your proposal to be?” EWWW. Worst is when asked when both me and the questioner are 100% single (!!).
I feel bad to judge these girls…it’s their life and their prerogative to demand a certain ring/proposal. BUT. They are just setting themselves up for disappointment. How about letting a man be a man and express himself and his love for you, and propose in his own creative way? How about just accepting him for who he is not who you wish he was?
These girls don’t want to find true love, they just want someone to fill the job opening. That’s messed up.
Several girls I didn’t become good friends with (lol) had their diamond cut (“princess” or something), metal color, holding style etc picked out. Again, most of these girls were either 100% single or dating a guy who didn’t seem to making marriage moves. WT*??
A really strange girl had her proposal play-by-play planned out… it will be by a waterfall, he should say xyz… AND. She’s already identified a friend of hers to tell the guy what to do because, “Guys are dumb, he’ll just muck it up if I don’t spell it out.” Weirdoo! Why would you marry a guy you think is dumb??
Happiest married girl I know: teeny tiny diamond (“Isn’t it cute? He’s just starting out so I don’t mind… I prefer a big honeymoon any way)
Least happiest: girls above who have still not gotten engaged/married like 10 years later (vs. me who collects proposals like the Patriots collect Super Bowl rings… J/k! Joking…Patriots suck 😉 ).
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Now?
alpha=beta=alpha (pulling chicks like a mofo once again!)
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Here’s an update on my ridiculous tale:
I was in a 3.5 year relationship, most of it long distance. It ended because I beta’d myself, and after we broke up (semi-mutually) I chased her until it was broken for good. This was a year ago.
Since then I’ve had sex with one girl (5x times-ish), dry humped another, fingered a third, and turned down a fourth for sex. Been on a shitload of other dates, and am maybe starting to see a girl who won’t have sex or do much until marriage (not exclusively seeing her, or going to spend much $ though).
I still can’t forget about my ex though. This is a neuro-chemical imbalance due to (a) how it ended where I chased her, (b) enduring low self-esteem issues with regards to finding a girl as good or better, and (c) not a whole lot of options. This is exacerbated by the fact that I’m in a city without a lot of close friends.
So I called the ex and have tried for a month to get together with her for lunch. She’s stalled and brushed me off until I finally secured a meet up later this week. I don’t know why I’m subjecting myself to this torture because (a) I’m pretty sure she’s seeing someone else and (b) even if she isn’t, I beta’d myself too hardcore to the point that she think she’s higher status than me.
Thoughts and comments appreciated. Blah.
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ok, well in my experience it’s still the bride’s family/parents that pay for the wedding.
then your experience is limited. welcome to the world of wedding hurt.
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jc yea I told the first wife to leave when she didn’t live up to her end of marriage then three years later she left me at a low point and talking about the last three years being shit. I made her retract that but yea. I am like well if you would have left three years ago I wouldn’t be in position I am in now. Family convinced me to get back together. Can’t go home again once you break up.
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A very alpha proposal:
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Femx Never has any post produced less of a gina tingle than this. In fact, this post undoes the effect of many past gina tingles
Show me your boobs again and I’ll give you gina tingles.
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Ok, right, that’s…what I thought.
Well, duh. I mean…duh. Duh. In many ways, duh. As stated above, my groom is not expected to pay for any of the wedding. And, of course, if the groom/bride (and not the parents) pay for the wedding, they should have the foresight to work within their means. Duh. I guess my point above was that I feel like most of the guys on here think that the wedding is, by default, coming out of their pocket…when…I don’t think this is the case. I do not think that the default involves the groom paying for the wedding. As you said, it would be a “big favor” type of deal — not expected.
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In other words I listened to “reason” and stuck with vows during her bad time and she tried to rip my heart out in vengeance for what I did even though I took her back even though every day I spent with her was another day wasted in achieving my dream.
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JC: 9 other women to go sleep with, would probably be what a PUA would tell you.
Don’t see her again: waste of time/money/emotional energy.
Make new friends.
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I haven’t gone through the comments yet, so someone else may have posted this already:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/156372
Seems at least peripherally relevant to today’s topic anyway. Interested in your take on the article.
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I hate to say it jc because I believe in picking up your woman when your fat but yea I am feeling the call of the gym.
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Plus yea gym really good for networking.
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“Gaze into her eyes and slip the ring on her finger, saying nothing.”
ACE.
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Even if you aren’t common-law married, there’s no way to contract around your child support obligations. And nowadays, alimony is often disguised as child support.
I suppose his response would be “don’t get married and don’t have children.”
But what if you really want to have children? At that point, your only option is to suck it up or to move to some third-world country with man-friendly divorce laws.
I suppose if you were wealthy, you could hire a surrogate to bear a child with your sperm and donor eggs from a deceased donor. Then there’s nobody who could claim custody of the child or child support. You then hire nannies to raise the child.
Frankly that seems a bit cold and ghoulish to me.
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I don’t see why there’s such a hubbub about marriage here. Yeah, give me a fine, sexy bitch who will give me 9 months of the steamiest, hottest sex and she can rape me of all that I have afterwards.
I say fuck it. It’s better than being a whiny beta who never gets the 8+ (nevermind marries her). Life is not about the end result anyway; it’s about the ride along the way.
Besides, if it works out, we can even have kids. That’s one of the purposes of life.
[I think I will change my screenname to something equally provocative but more tasteful, if that’s possible.]
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”””chic noir
Femx Never has any post produced less of a gina tingle than this. In fact, this post undoes the effect of many past gina tingles
Show me your boobs again and I’ll give you gina tingles.
”””””””
Well its all out now chic lol
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JC:
The simple stupid and nearly always correct as well is that once a girl breaks up with you, it ain’t never gonna happen again.
Note I said she broke up with you. If you broke up with her, you might be able to get back together again.
However if you really want we can break down that simple stupid. If she broke up with you because “she wasn’t feeling it anymore” = loss of attraction or confirmation of non attraction you’re toast forever more. (If you aren’t clear why she really broke up with you it’s because of loss of attraction, count on it.) Really you’re deeply in the hole. Depending on the relationship facts she might still think you’re overall a pretty good guy, but you’re deeply in negative territory about her ever feeling attraction for you again. You think you’re somewhat to the good and could build from there; you’re wrong. Not in attraction. When she decides the bond is gone, you’re negative, way more so than when she first me you. Forget about analyzing all the things she told you that were wrong. What was really wrong is that you were too beta to her; you weren’t exciting her. IF it really was you were too much of an asshole, well then there’s still a shot. But you’re wrong. It’s cause you were too beta and she figured it out in your case even if not the general case, and she’s moved on.
If she broke up because you wouldn’t commit, or you cheated, or one of you went away to college or grad school or moved to a different city for work, yeah then it’s possible you could get back together.
Ok, back to the attraction faded cause you were too beta to her case – which is most cases, certainly the ones that aren’t crystal clear why she did it and aren’t full of strum and drang. If you became incredibly more alpha you might have a shot. Part of that would have to be success with other equally as hot or hotter girls that she learns about. But it’s a terrible play on your part. You could then get a hotter girl. Your ex will ALWAYS think you’re new self is more beta than new girls will, even if she now sees you as pretty alpha NOW.
So move on. Claro?
Again the simple stupid is that girls don’t go backwards when they move on cause they aren’t feeling it anymore. Period.
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Paying lip service to “petty societal concerns” (getting married) while in practice flouting them (having affairs) is more alpha than staying single.
Walking the talk is beta. Subverting an institution and getting away with rank hypocrisy? Alpha.
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Where have I heard that before? Could it be? Is Luker really Robert Stacy McCain??
http://rsmccain.blogspot.com/
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Here’s an update on my ridiculous tale:
I was in a 3.5 year relationship, most of it long distance. It ended because I beta’d myself, and after we broke up (semi-mutually) I chased her until it was broken for good. This was a year ago.
Since then I’ve had sex with one girl (5x times-ish), dry humped another, fingered a third, and turned down a fourth for sex. Been on a shitload of other dates, and am maybe starting to see a girl who won’t have sex or do much until marriage (not exclusively seeing her, or going to spend much $ though).
I still can’t forget about my ex though. This is a neuro-chemical imbalance due to (a) how it ended where I chased her, (b) enduring low self-esteem issues with regards to finding a girl as good or better, and (c) not a whole lot of options. This is exacerbated by the fact that I’m in a city without a lot of close friends.
So I called the ex and have tried for a month to get together with her for lunch. She’s stalled and brushed me off until I finally secured a meet up later this week. I don’t know why I’m subjecting myself to this torture because (a) I’m pretty sure she’s seeing someone else and (b) even if she isn’t, I beta’d myself too hardcore to the point that she think she’s higher status than me.
Thoughts and comments appreciated. Blah.
Just cut it off and walk away. Be a man about it and cancel that lunch meet.
Doesn’t mean you won’t feel like shit for a while, but that’s life.
Your number one goal right now should be to meet new people, make new friends, and create new relationships.
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Funny stuff
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I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, but it seems like most have been said. The other girls who post here are sensible I think. We care mainly about the guy proposing, not how he does it or how big the ring is or wedding will be.
It’s the other girls out there, who do care about ring size and having a dream wedding, maybe the majority(?) who aren’t here commenting. Why? They’re busy looking at tiffanys.com and theknot.com lol. Actually they wouldn’t read a site like this, and if they did they wouldn’t bother to comment – they wouldn’t believe it. Or they would just point to popular culture and mainsteam bridezilla behavior to justify themselves. Or they would think, “It’s been my dream since I was a little girl to have my dream wedding with my prince.” They’ll justify it, I’m sure.
So I don’t get the recent trend (?) of having a big party with all your friends and family during the proposal. Know several couples who either did the proposal with friends/family there watching, or had a party immediately after to go celebrate.
Getting engaged is probably the 2nd most emotional and dramatic step of love and passion to people go through – so I would want it done in private too! Just me and him, together, taking on the rest of the world (pardon the cheesiness :-)).
Also, what guy proposes to a girl without having at least talked to her about a forever and ever future together? I’ve never heard of a guy who didn’t spend a long time bringing up marriage slowly, like:
“We make a good team. We should make this permanent.”
“You’re pretty fun. And sweet. I think I could be with you forever.”
“Hey you’re great wife material… you’re beautiful…but a lot of girls are. You’re fun… but so are a lot of girls. But you’re the most caring person I know. And you’re perfect for me”
And mushier and mushier and eventually talking about marriage itself. If a girl reacts badly the guy stops. If she reacts OK, not too enthusiastic (bridezilla alert) but also not turned off, he escalates. So why would a guy doubt she’ll say yes?
Also, wouldn’t a guy know if the girl is materialistic well before proposing? And I agree with Madras about not embarassing the girl, unless she is the type that can handle it (I think Doug1 kind of talked about that). My friend was able to handle the comments about her teeny tiny diamond, she was in love and she’s a strong woman too. Some girls would be overly sensitive… especially if an Alpha has kept her guessing about his true feelings. If he doesn’t express at least a little mushiness, she’ll also doubt why he wants to get married. Is it to bail him out? Is it for immigration (lol)? Too much Alpha sends up the “beware” sensors too, sometimes stronger than the tingle.
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I agree with femx about the lack of gina tingles on this one.
I haven’t yet found a good, non-tacky, non-cliche way for someone to propose. Bended-knee-in-a-restaurant is not only beta, it’s unoriginal, uncreative beta. And sporting-event proposals are not only beta, not only unoriginal and uncreative, but also showing a rather distressing obsession with homoerotic male bonding activities.
Her suggestions really aren’t that much better. I’m sorry, but “Whattaya say we get hitched?” just lacks romance. It’s not something you’d look back on when you’ve hit the wall. The Lincoln Center one was pretty cool, though.
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Psychic bastard. You had to post this on the day my wedding ring fell off.
By the way, my engagement ring wasn’t for my finger. I was given a custom fit collar with “Shai’s” sewn into the leather.
He’s the only man on earth who could get away with that with me.
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for the record, i think the diamond inside ring is funny! and i’d actually wear it 🙂
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I am a ball-less beta… my soon to be ex proposed to me instead of the other way around!
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@amanda
for the record, i think the diamond inside ring is funny! and i’d actually wear it 🙂
So you’re a girl, and we should therefore care?
Link a pic and maybe we would.
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“my number one bitch”
The term for this is “bottom bitch.” It’s a pimp’s favorite/first ho.
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That sounds far more romantic than I thought it would. Wouldn’t mind my significant other doing this, instead of asking — as you put it — in a “Beta” way, like dropping to one knee.
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Roosh, do you know this dude Botha?
Botha deez nutz in ya mouth.
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man what the fuck is wrong with you ? Please tell me i should not be concerned. Two very near posts on marriage? Could it be … the end … of an era? This thing is on your mind man and it shows.
Marriage is always a beta move no matter how alpha the superficialities.
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Carl Sagan
you sound exactly like my ex. 2 year relationship, most of it long distance, it ended because he was a retard, and now he’s chasing me. weird! are you him?
he is having a hard time moving on, he will have an even harder time finding a girl as good as me, but he does have a lot of options, and he’s in a city without a lot of friends, so he’s probably lonely, and ever since we broke up i do feel like my status is way higher than his.
will i don’t know if my comments will help you but if i could give my ex some tips, i would tell him to go big or go home! at this point, there’s still a teeny tiny window of opportunity for my ex to come in and “fix” things, but whenever i allow contact, all he does is makes things worse by pulling the “poor me” card. the patience has run so thin, i think even all the game in the world couldn’t help him. if i were him, i would take a break from contacting me. my emails to him have not been very pretty, yet he continues to come back for more. carl, you should leave her alone. go find another new girl, who won’t see your flaws the way the old girlfriend will. just like my ex, you too probably need a good ego boost. you won’t find that with the ex. take a 6 month break and then contact her again-maybe.
i think when relationships come to an end, it’s usually for the best. as long as i know i tried my hardest and gave 110%, walking away isn’t so hard, especially since i never do anything wrong. when you don’t try and you don’t give 110%, that’s usually when you have regrets, after it all comes tumbling down you think ‘what if i had only tried a little bit harder, things would have been different.’ well, it’s too late!
next time, try a little bit harder! nothing is worse than living with regrets! ugh!
g-luck!
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I think need new term than “pimp”
What do they call the dude who has 7 wives.
Bhetty might be able to help with this one.
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hey Dave fh, why didn’t you have kids?
What’s the point of standing your wife without them?
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Polygamists. Muslims. Nigerians. Et al.
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me me me:
That wasn’t my post.
I was responding to commenter JC.
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And…if anything the fact that Brides families still pay for weddings makes the flakiness of women that much worse. They arent only taking their hubbies for a ride, but their dads (and to some extent moms) as well.
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Sabril,
The surrogate deal is the best way to go. I’m a hedge fund manager and all of my friends in our business are talking about this. None of us want to get married. It’s not clear what a golddigging “wife” does for us (we have maids etc. & it’s easy to get girlfriends) but we want to have kids.
Marriage is an insane deal if you’re a succesful guy. You have to pay millions to some woman as the price of having a “normal” family. The golddiggers know this so they outnumber the normal chicks 100-1. Even if you hide your wealth (hard to do if you’re well known) once a girl finds out she will morph into a gold digger overnight as her friends explain what is “expected” of the guy.
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JC wrote: “Thoughts and comments appreciated. Blah.”
It’s very simple, really:
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Oops! Sorry Carl Sagan!
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i asked him to marry me 49 times…and counting!
😛
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Diamonds are a vile marketing ploy, and cliched to the point of absurdity. (Family heirlooms are exempt from this, their sentimental value easily trumping the negative aspects of diamonds.)
Bended-knee-in-a-restaurant is not only beta, it’s unoriginal, uncreative….
YES! THIS! Don’t do what’s trite and expected! Gah, the generic proposals, the generic diamonds, the generic flowers, the cookie-cutter sameness of it all! It’s so disheartening. Make it creative, memorable, unique! Something meaningful only to the two of you — the more intimate, the better; the more baffling to outsiders, the better.
I’m partial to moonstones, myself. There are nice ones on eBay all the time, costing less money than an expensive dinner. More than adequate, imo.
If a woman requires a flashy, expensive ring and has already memorised detailed specs for what she’s after? Run.
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mememe:
Yup, havn’t contacted her in about 4 months. We broke up a year ago, and, as I wasn’t getting her back by chasing her, I beta’d myself fully (and pathetically) to get closure – which obviously hasn’t fully worked.
Now, it’s hard to know how much of this is low self esteem on my part that I won’t get someone as good as her, and how much of this is my belief that we’re fundamentally compatible and that it was my lack of understanding of evolutionary psychology and innate male/female differences that shattered the relationship, and my hope that with such an understanding things could work.
Of course, I agree with some of the above comments: I’m trying to FTOW; hardening the fuck up would certainly help me; and my odds of success of getting a girl back who has lost attraction for me due to prolonged betaness are very low.
Still, that doesn’t prevent me from trying.
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JC,
There’s an old saying from the original alt.seduction.fast:
GFTOW — go fuck ten other women.
Then you won’t think as much about that bitch.
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@JC,
“Still, that doesn’t prevent me from trying. ”
Textbook case of somebody not wanting to take a loss.
I remember playing chess with my grand-dad back while i was still young ..he never let me win .. Had a chance to visit him a few years ago .. old man was frail, yet the wild animal in him was ever so fierce … We played chess one last time .. I beat the old dog with a 1d4 opening … the old man had a big smile in years .. he talked .. ” R, I wanted to teach you how to lose son.. all it takes to ride through life is the ability to stare coldly at defeat without wincing” … I couldn’t be around when the old dog passed away. But losing still hurts… be it money, women or power …
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“Never has any post produced less of a gina tingle than this. In fact, this post undoes the effect of many past gina tingles.”
Yeah, you’re telling me. I’m sitting here with a raging boner looking for some stimulation and I get none. I went to Lovelysexybeauty’s blog thinking I’d get some titty or butt shots of her, and all I get is anonymity.
I also don’t understand all of the bitching about marriage. Just sign a prenup if you have all that wealth. Most of these guys need to get laid; marriage is off the table for these sex-deprived betas.
LILGRL’s comments about diamonds are worth some reflecting.
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I would have thought an alpha proposal would be.
Alpha guy (texting) : Hey, we’re getting married. Take care of it.
Her (phoning four seconds later) : What?
Alpha guy (ignoring the first six attempt to call, picks up on the seventh) : Can’t you read?
Her : Oh my god! yes! But there’s a million things to do!
Alpha guy : Don’t go giving me second thoughts now. It’s a legal formality, not a circus in whoretown. Listen, I can’t see you for a few days, but I’ll email the pre-nup.
Her : But what about……
Alpha guy : You, me, married. Make it happen.
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aliasclio:
I strongly disagree. Diamonds are a vulgar and grossly overvalued product, lacking all the unique properties and charms of truly precious substances like gold. I can’t help but admire the idea of this ring with an inward-turned diamond. It’s a creative way to subvert a ridiculous custom.
For start, the diamond engagement ring is not an ancient custom at all. It’s the result of a successful marketing ploy by the global diamond near-monopoly De Beers from two generations ago — a completely fake and manufactured tradition. There’s a plausible theory why the marketing campaign worked so well: around that time, courts stopped awarding damages for breach of promise to marry. (Such lawsuits were based on the assumption, back then certainly true, that if a girl lost her virginity and got dumped, her marriage prospects were greatly damaged.) Thus, women started demanding expensive gifts as bonds from their fiances before giving them sex, and De Beers filled that demand perfectly with their diamonds:
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~siow/332/rings.pdf
Moreover, diamonds are not a truly rare and scarce substance like gold, which is impossible to manufacture except for the tiny quantities mined. Diamond is just an allotropic form of carbon, and it can be industrially synthesized from ordinary carbon (i.e. coal or graphite) in a form indistinguishable from the “real” mined ones. The synthetic diamond industry is churning out ever larger stones at an ever lower cost. De Beers is of course fighting like hell against this technology, and they’ve even successfully lobbied for regulations that synthetic diamonds must be physically branded as such. However, I’d still bet that the technology will continue advancing, and in a not so far future, diamonds will be just cheap trinkets, unless I’m underestimating both the skill of De Beers’s marketing and human stupidity.
Thus, diamonds are definitely not a reliable store of long-term value (this not even considering that many people pay the entire value of the thing all over again in insurance). And even regardless of that, while e.g. gold really has a unique and mysterious charm, a diamond is just a piece of coal that’s been held under high pressure for a while, and machines are available that will actually do that. The damned things aren’t even particularly durable — they are fairly easy to shatter, and they’ll burn at roughly 700C. If your house burns down, your gold will still be there, even if melted, but the diamonds will all vanish into carbon dioxide.
Of course, all this is not even considering the unfairness of the custom and the fact that it brings out all the worst irrational bragging urges in women. Unless he’s rich, a man who wanted to spend thousands of dollars on a useless whim just to brag in front of his friends would be condemned as an irresponsible spendthrift, yet women consider this as their inalienable privilege. That this frivolity is expressed through such a vulgar medium only makes it worse.
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The alpha guys I know didn’t need to “propose” because their girlfriends had already been harping on the topic for a long time. There were already many gf initiated arguments, pseudo-breakups, or false ultimatums in the air.
In a sense it is the females who propose, with all the attendant effort and supplication, and the men who eventually say yes.
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Eh. If the girlfriends were at all “harping” – let alone initating arguments or putting forward (shudder) ultimata – then these guys are, in all likelihood, the alpha-only-on-paper type.
The GF of an alpha would never ever issue an ultimatum, bluffing or not, because she would know the answer: kicked to the curb.
Ultimatum = hopeless beta.
She gives you an ultimatum = she thinks of you as a hopeless beta. Run for your life.
The GF of an alpha would also never “initiate arguments” about this topic, because the result would be the same.
But she might:
* Use her best girl-game (conscious or not) to get him to think of her as commitment material.
* Look up at him with pleading eyes after she’s been naughty and say, in a very soft and slow voice, “Do you still want to marry me?”
Epoxytocin Maxim No. 4: If SHE brings up the topic of marriage first, run for your life. Either she has a clear agenda, or she thinks of you as a beta (these two are inextricably linked in most cases).
You MUST be the first to explicitly broach the topic. If not, you have no hope.
Although she will certainly feel free to bring it up on a decently regular basis, but NOT in an accusatory/argumentative way, and NOT until you have done so first. If she breaks either of these rules, run for your life.
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My favorite is the popular notion that a diamond ring should cost 3x the man’s monthly income.
Diamonds, like any other shiny things, are nice if tastefully assembled on a ring, in a way that accentuates a girl’s hand. Those rigns normally cost well within $1,000, and closer to 6-7 hundred. It could be a lovely row of five or so tiny stones, for example.
The big stone on a ring is gaudy and ugly, and the more it gets ridiculed, the better. Also, they are prone to breaking off and snagging on clothes.
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Why even use a ring in the first place? This is a custom I have never understood and stood strongly against. The reason why we even think diamond rings are symbolic of love is because of a big marketing scam engineered by the DeBeer’s company.
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Vladimir, I should have read your post before adding to the conversation. You have explained my point far more elaborately and eloquently.
Rain And,
Anybody who has to give an ultimatum has already lost the game. If he gives in, she loses all respect for him. If he says no, she has lost a worthy man.What sane person would want to spend a lifetime with someone who resorts to such ultimatums?
On a side note, Mr X was the one who broached the topic first. Apparently I have passed all his tests (only a few of which I know, the rest he won’t tell me). After a certain point it dawned on me that this was the man I was destined to marry. He reached that conclusion before I did.
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@ PA
What? Really? This is a “popular notion”?
I thought I’d heard it all, but…
Damn.
Srsly?
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Yes, I’ve heard it here and there, though I don’t recall the sources.
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The common-law issue is something that people who want to avoid anything resembling a divorce will want to approach using the following:
1.) Are they living in a state that allows common-law marriages and legally recognizes them
2.) Are they moving to a state that recognizes common-law marriages from other states but does not provide for such relationships and instead requires registration of a domestic partnership between residents of that state which is the equivalent of a marriage and dissolution requires similar action to divorce proceedings.
3.) Have they been in a relationship for the length of time that is required in order to be considered a common-law marriage.
All of the above can be done in whatever order you’d like, but don’t take too long if you don’t want to end up finding that the situation has already gone past an important deadline.
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PA: I think that was 2 months, not 3.
Anyway, it has been said: Alpha’s don’t propose. If you´re alpha enough your woman will say it first. And say it repeatedly. Even if you ignore her, or tell her to stop it, she won´t say it again, but she will behave as it is going to happen anyway.
If a man proposes he should make it funny, for himself, not to satisfy his bitches vanity.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gsNqFtHJrOFDjm1mZxi1snUa0X4Q
BEIJING (AFP) – A court in China Tuesday sentenced the “godmother” of an organised crime gang to 18 years in jail after a sensational trial which gripped the nation with lurid tales of sex and corruption.
…..“Godmother” Xie Caiping, 46, allegedly ran 20 illegal gambling dens in hotels, nightclubs and tea houses, was involved in illegal drug activity, and bribed police to turn a blind eye to her crimes, earlier press reports said….
…..Xie, who reportedly drove a Mercedes-Benz, owned several luxury villas and kept a stable of 16 young men to provide her with sexual services……
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Oh yeah…..
When I got engaged the mr. already knew I wouldn’t accept an extravagant ring and didn’t want any rocks, even for my wedding ring. Instead, the engagement ring was a gold band and the wedding ring was a platinum band which were later joined together for practical reasons.
My mom took her engagement ring diamond (1/8tcw. which isn’t much by any standard, even in 1968) and had it set into a locket and gave that to me to wear on my wedding day, something I still wear now because of the special meaning it has for me. My parents are happily married and have been more than 41years, and that’s something to aspire to.
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Spandrell: it may have been 2 months. Which is still absurd, including the spirit of the ring’s cost being a direct proxy for the hubbie’s salary.
Alphas do propose, but it’s critical, like you say, that the girl is one who “hints” of marriage first. Even a greater beta, if he lets a girl hint and tease about eventually getting married to him, will be certain of her enthusiastic ‘yes!’ to the proposal.
I wouldn’t say a proposal needs to be funny. It’s a very important occasion so due respect for yourself, your girl, and the moment is good. Inappropriate cocky/funny can signal immaturity or fear of sharing an emotion with your girl.
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unlearning genius wrote: “Textbook case of somebody not wanting to take a loss. ”
This is dead on. I’ve been handed basically everything in my life and was never taught to take a loss. This is the first big one I’ve experienced and it’s hard dealing with it.
Good story about your grandfather as well.
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http://www.groomgroove.com/the_engagement/two_months_salary_on_diamond_engagement_ring.php
Wow there is a place called groomgroove.com! Who knew. Epoxy now you have another place to hang out.
It seems the two month salary thing has to do with DeFears of God campaign too. Cool marketing.
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Just a thought on the rings again or jewelry in general.
There is a line where the price and the beauty of the ring doesn’t match, it might be beautiful, but it doesn’t differ from any nice rings for what you can buy for far less money. i NEVER bought an expensive ring. And i don’t by, like to get jewelry for using for worse times, i want to use them and remember trips, occasions or perhaps i just fell in love with it because it matches my perception of graceful beauty. on no circumstances do i like a ring, if its just a big piece of tasteless junk on my finger. No no no.
Going back to this ring, although i have to admit i like the idea, i just would like to change some small details, like the text have to go, and the shape i don’t like either.
One of the nicer rings i got was from my ex bf as a engagement ring, it was his moms engagement ring, and its beautiful, if i go to flee markets here, i see a lake of the same ring, from the 70’s their price aged badly, so you can get it for like 25 bucks, but that is not the point, the ring is tasteful, it has 12 smaller diamonds in it, (quite an odd engagement ring.) and even if its a cheap one, i love it, and the emotional value for that ring is high, i would never swop it for a more expensive one.
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@biktopia- from ex bf as an engagement ring? so you didn’t marry him but kept his family heirloom ring anyway …?!?
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@all- david brooks has a piece in this morning’s NYT on the urban meat market. although he uses the phrase “post-feminist” once, he seems to put much of the blame on technology, specifically texting, though it’s evidently a lot more than that. interesting read – not really news to commenters here though.
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Wtf biktopia?!
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We never married and yes i did keep the ring, i felt, i should give it to his wife, that was my intention for years,when i went to his wedding I asked him, i want to give the ring back to your wife, but he sad i should keep it, so i’m not struggling with those feelings anymore, weather to give it back or not, me and my ex are close friends, that ring symbolizes the affection we had and the good friendship we still have.
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but he sad i should keep it
I don’t believe you. It was his mother’s ring, so it needs to stay in his family. If he doesn’t accept it from you (which I don’t believe you if you say that) then you need to give it to his mother or sister some other relative of his.
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You shouldn’t have to ask at all, you should just give it back. You put him in an awkward position if you ask feebly, “uh, so do you like, um, want that ring you gave me back?”
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“curb one’s masculine allure”
Um, not true. So many women are attracted to married men. They already have the ‘stamp of approval’.
Single men should wear wedding rings just to get more tail.
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Mo, David Brooks is about as trustworthy and perceptive as a 5 year odl with ADHD.
NYTimes “I am a conservative, but I hate all conservatvies” btich.
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”””””JC
unlearning genius wrote: “Textbook case of somebody not wanting to take a loss. ”
This is dead on. I’ve been handed basically everything in my life and was never taught to take a loss. This is the first big one I’ve experienced and it’s hard dealing with it.
Good story about your grandfather as well.””””””””’
Yea I am glad I didn’t have to wait for my brother in law to die to beat him in chess that would have sucked.
Losing your life savings is overrated as a life lesson or maybe its not. Who knows.
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Your right i should not have asked that’s very true, in another way, it’s still given to me with all that what it’s worth, and i want to make sure, that he feels its right for me to return that ring, our relationship ended from a unexpected tragedy, and we managed to until this day keep a good and deep friendship with him and his whole family, i’m still wondering unconvinced after what you say, maybe this ring was given to me. Its a difficult question for me. (btw, the marriage bw his mom and dad, didnt last, and they divorced, and they now live with long term life partners, but it might take the edge of the personal affection for them to the ring..)
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But sometimes if your getting the shit kicked out of you in chess you should probably pick up a football to establish dominance and win in that he he he
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gunslingergregi
What do they call the dude who has 7 wives.
A masochist.
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Dog pill proposal.
Inspired by the great Brittish sitcom, Peep show where Jeremy wants to say he is in love, (series 4 i think) he coins the dog pill technique. (Dog pill:you wrap the pill safely in a meatball, so the dog will not notice the “pill”)
In a proposal it would be as following,
You sit in the couch and watch telly, and say: i love this series , and slip her the ring, then say, we should download all the episodes i wanna marry you, and she takes a zip of her diet coke and says yes we should.
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Well i guess it would happen sooner or later…
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@bikky
hey what happened to your avatar. You must be the sensitive type.
cute birdy
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firepower:
These gravatar’s sucks, they take a week to change, and i like to swop them, but honestly, you hit me with your comment, i didnt like that pic at all, especially not in small, and changed it quite fast after i uploaded it, i feel better with a small birdie.
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lol. its DB’s thats truly a girl’s best friend. Bet you collected more bling than Gretzky.
lemme borrow a few dozen for the weekend baby
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Firepower: 2
Bikky: zip
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@vladimir interesting points about the original intent behind engagement rings. Seems like they came about around the time social networks became bigger and loosened up. When everyone was a part of a tight knit community, a man couldn’t get away with false promises of marriage. A ring worth 2-3 months salary put his money where his mouth was, perhaps – he couldn’t break it off on a whim. Even today with the short window for women’s desirability (up to age 25/30), committing to a man who might leave you is a major risk. Regardless of how many tingles a girl has for him. If those tingles are going to end soon, why not find another Alpha or alphaish higher beta who will actually stick around for life and truly commit? Tingles for life are better even if less regularly, than a lot for just a few months or years leading to none b/c you’re too old! Just some ideas…
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one of my pals woke up his girlfriend on a saturday morning and told her to pack a bag. they flew from the midwest to nyc, and on the rockefeller ice rink, he took a knee under the christmas lights and proposed.
another one of my pals rented a tuxedo and told his girlfriend that he’d gotten too drunk during happy hour and checked into a hotel in manhattan. she took the train in to meet him and opened the hotel door to find him kneeling down in a room covered in rose petals.
for what it’s worth, i see both these marriages sticking.
i have another friend who is in a committed relationship with a mutual decision not to marry. this is primarily an atheism-fueled protest of society’s church-state fusion. there is also a stated intention, if children are desired later, to adopt an underprivileged kid. for what it’s worth, soft vegetarianism and occasional veganism are in play, on moral grounds.
an old college roommate dumped a baby into a short, fat mexican out in california. she now lives in his house.
one of my female friends just dumped a long-distance pedestalizing beta because “what is the point?” she will be a 29 year old lawyer in a murray hill studio in a number of months.
another female friend of mine finally got engaged to a long-time boyfriend. years ago, she told me that between a jewish wedding, raised-jewish children, and his conversion to judaism, she insisted on two out of the three. i am not sure if her boyfriend acquiesced, but she has recently told me that babies are disgusting.
i’ve noticed a recurring meme when i visit with these couples: the girls find some way to bring up what a “nice guy” i am. things like “our cats love you because they know you’re a NICE GUY!” or “you’re funny and smart, you’d make such a NICE GUY to wind up with!” it is as if they are trying to sell me on the idea. i believe that they mean well.
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fwiw, the ‘hidden diamond’ ring was developed in Mjmbai as the perfect thematic gift for bloggy girls who, likewise, hide their pix.
i read it in Cosmo!
itz gotta be true
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All right, boys — lest this gets lost in the mix of what is alpha and what is not alpha:
There is at least one important thing, and that’s to give her a story to tell her friends/family/future children. Obviously, this doesn’t have to (and shouldn’t) mean spending a ridiculous amount of money — just make it special. I’d better not get any backlash on this about how it’s not Alpha to make her feel special or whatnot — if you’re going to take such a big step and go against all the anti-male marriage laws that you know are in place, you obviously care deeply about this girl. So making her feel special (and some of the aforementioned scenarios would do the trick) is something you can do without losing your masculinity.
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@epoxy & jd I agree that it depends on the guy and the girl’s level of game whether she begs a guy for marriage or if she follows his lead with going in that direction. If a guy is not the marrying type that will usually be pretty obvious over some time. No matter what a girl nags him about, he has to decide on his own if he wants to commit. Girls with game know this and don’t waste time begging the question; instead they work on being marriageable (pretty, sweet, caring) so that he’ll decide this on his own.
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Interesting, Epoxy thinks the guy should broach the topic of marriage first, and PA/others think the girl should.
For the record, it was Epoxy who brought up marriage first:
(1 day after meeting him)
LIL: Blah blah blah (infamous hex incident)
Epoxy: We should get married.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
No, but SRSLY, he brought it up first the real time, too.
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””””There is at least one important thing, and that’s to give her a story to tell her friends/family/future children.””””””’
Thats where the ability to find life or death struggles to go through together can be really good skillset to have.
Whats a ring compared to ripping her from the clutches of “evil” men.
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”””'(1 day after meeting him)
LIL: Blah blah blah (infamous hex incident)
Epoxy: We should get married.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
No, but SRSLY, he brought it up first the real time, too.
””””””
No way lol
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If you have to ya might want to hire some thugs to fuck with you while your with your woman so you can whip some ass maverick style. Really cements relationship I think.
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LilGrl true about the good story. Getting engaged is such an amazing passionate step of love and hope (well it should be)! Guy who gives up other options and picks a girl as #1 – pretty big deal from an Alpha. So I am a little on the fence about who should bring up marriage first. In my cases it’s always been the guy as well – I feel like if I bring it up I will seem like I am just looking for a husband, not that I really care about him and want to be with him more. But if marriage is important to a girl for social/religious reasons, instead of just breaking up with him it’s probably better to let him know she needs marriage to be with someone long term. Not nag, not lecture… Just say she needs marriage and let him do as he wishes with that info. Some guys just don’t realize that marriage is important to some girls. But if a guy gets turned off, says no I don’t want to marry (you) and she’s nagging him for it… Def bad news. If he says no and he can’t shut her up about it, 1st of all he’s not being the leader – not Alpha. And if she has to nag him to do it and he proposes, that probably means he’s not into her. She’ll be heartbroken when he mans up and doesn’t show up to the alter, or has an affair and divorces her, etc. He would go from Alpha to Beta to Alpha again… And regret the bad decision he made in Beta mode. And she’ll try to get revenge however she can even though she brought it on herself… Bad situation for everyone
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yep.
Street Art 101 in any one of 10,003 NYC subway cars. Always worth valuable analysis time.
still, she has potential: she looks like she’s not a fatty fatfat with jumbo ladyparts, has creamy skin, and she has The Red Hair.
if she can use curlers on her bush, even petey can spring a chub
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Epoxy perfected I want to marry you game on the first meeting.
I guess question would be how many woman did you tell that to?
Not to fuck up your game or anything he he he
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I know I speak for everyone: its pretty cool of you to let him off the hook for all he’s done for you. Lots of girls forget about the free travel to Spain and high California rent.
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NOT so! If a girl is clever, she can hide all that negative stuff like her age, homeliness, what she really looks like and even hairy arms. Never let them see.
You can even make up whatever age you want to be if you never give them concrete evidence
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ROSIE,
What do you think of this story of Wife cheating on rich, multimillionaire Husband with a SERBIAN punk and the husband valiantly standing by her wife?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/03/quinn-gray-faked-kidnappi_n_343591.html
THIS IS WHY I LOVE FEMINISM.
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Biting Beaver, I think should be gang raped.
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bleh
who cares what ariana huffington
puts in
her gray
old beaver
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LOSER,
i think you should be cockpunched with a stileto.
Loser lurker i see you are trying to start your new drama fight for this week, drama queen.
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LILGRL–
The important this is that the girl becomes sure she wants him to marry her first.
Any man who isn’t reluctant to take the step to actual marriage in this age under our laws is a fool. Any man who asks a girl to marry him who he’s not absolutely sure will immediately say yes is a fool.
Contra to the programing given to men, it is not ok if she says she will need to think about it. That likely means she will say no, but even if she decides yes, she will be deeply settling, so much so that she on the knife edge of no. As well what are your chances of getting a strong, mimics living together in financial terms, pre-nup from a girl that has to think about marriage.
If a girl says she will give you her answer some time later, you have made a big mistake asking her. Tell her “my mistake. Offer withdrawn.” Really.
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meh
I’ll never grant your fantasies
I’m a true
sadist
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this is probably worth an entire post –
http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/evidence-that-true-love-exists
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During an opener, I find this is actually proper, tight game with girls you know are down for that immediate ONS. If it’s a 7 you really, truly, seriously know will put out – go for it.
Works
every
time
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AS FAR as i am concerned, MARRIAGE IS AN OFFENSIVE PATRIACHAL SLAVERY.
No true feminist worthy of her salt gets excited about marriage.
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psht
like you even know what stilettos are
(much less own a pair)
we all know
you own
sensible
shoes
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Doug —
I thought about it, and I’ve decided that, for most guys, it makes sense to wait until she’s at least hinted at some sort of longer-term settling down situation.
And, as LSB said above, what guy doesn’t know if she’s going to say yes when he asks? SRSLY.
That said, I think it worked for my boyfriend because he brought it up early (<6 months) and, even though he asked, kept it in the frame of "I've decided I want to marry you."
I'm sure you can keep it Alpha if it's an "all your idea/choice" kind of thing. Not so sure most guys can pull this off. Also, if you've been with the girl for 7+ years, doesn't marrying her seem kind of like giving in?
Hmm.
Guns —
Doesn’t really matter now, does it.
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LILGRL,
Did you guys set a date!
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””””’Guns –
Epoxy perfected I want to marry you game on the first meeting.
I guess question would be how many woman did you tell that to
Doesn’t really matter now, does it.””””””
Not if he actually marries you benefit of doubt probably not.
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elan:
elan
this is probably worth an entire post –
Is that David Alexander on the way to work?
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Sof —
We have a few, depends on venues.
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”””””’I’m sure you can keep it Alpha if it’s an “all your idea/choice” kind of thing. Not so sure most guys can pull this off. Also, if you’ve been with the girl for 7+ years, doesn’t marrying her seem kind of like giving in?”””””
Well before we were married I said we were married no ceremony needed. Just that yea ok did the ceremony for her reputation family and neighborhood.
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Guns —
Haha, ok. Well, if it helps, we talked about game pretty soon after that. And he was all like, weirdly I’ve never used that line before.
He could be lying. I told him I’d never woo’d a guy with my hex prowess.
I could be lying.
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@LILGRL- really?
@sofia- ty otkuda pishesh’?
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maurice —
really what?
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KR
“She makes more than me, a lot more, so I will take her to the cleaners should it go that way.”
KR, no you won’t. Once she has HER children she will kick you out, refuse to work, and the guys with guns will force you to pay through the nose to support her like when SHE was working. DO NOT GET MARRIED.
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“СОФИА”
This should actually be СОФИЯ. Please don’t despoil the beautiful Cyrillic alphabet.
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Haha yeah SRSLY
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KR
She may or may not stop working when she pushes kids.
But you will owe child support on them equal to at least half of your after tax income in high tax states, even if she earns twice what you do.
I’ve never heard of a man who must pay child support being awarded alimony.
Anyone who doesn’t believe that marriage is one way rigged against men now in North America knows nothing.
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Canon
Those proposals are a sweet gift of romanticism, but, counterintuitively, they send all the wrong signals.
It’s more strategic to be in the position of power. If you let on how much you value your wife, next thing you know she’ll want the final say on the color of the curtains. Do you really want an equal partnership?
I know I don’t. I have final say over everything.
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[quote]
even gonna make them change their names
[/quote]
Yep that’s the point of my naming convention there 🙂
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[q]
even gonna make them change their names
[/q]
Any bitch of mine will be called whatever is better for me. After all, she is my bitch.
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The whole idea of proposing is weird, too. You are asking permission to live together for life?!
May I please be permanently bonded to you?
Seems to me if you need to ask permission for that, you shouldn’t ask. She should want it and have told you many times that she hopes to grow old with you.
I usually approach relationships with candor. Candor is my default position. Since the girls know my position on marriage, they sometimes frame their proposal as a way to help me with residency issues. Or a way to help them look properly religious and in good community standing. Or they just ask. Sometimes too often.
The smarter ones will ride the ride as long as its a good ride, and try to keep it a good ride to make it a long ride.
Moody Blues
Of the one or two times I’ve been in the position to want marriage more than the girl did, it was awful. The person I am now would never want to be that man again. Awful. To be a supplicant is to give up your authority, and that is precisely what you need most in an LTR. Your authority is your starting capitol, which you must invest wisely and see to it that it grows. Start with none and you the LTR soon goes bankrupt. Don’t supplicate for marriage. Don’t propose it.
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Asking for permission is differently from proposing
D’OH
A PROPOSITION means hey I am ready to do this great exciting thing, are you?
If not, then we are not on the same page.
If yes, GREAT! It’s official.
The only reason men “ask women out” is because men get turned on faster by female beauty whereas women can get sex more easily and their MO is to sit back and observe the guy’s behavior before getting involved.
Guys who can WAIT (usually it’s mad easy if you just get a lot of sex) until the woman is into them, have MUCH MORE SUCCESS.
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greg/xsplat —
yeah, a proposal is different from ‘asking permission’
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Greg M, regarding propositioning: if you say anything along the lines of “will you marry me”, you approach as a supplicant. I’d go further and suggest that extreme romantic gestures, such as making the proposal event a significant and romantic and meaningful delicious and to be cherished memory for her, are also the same signal of supplication.
That’s what’s counter-intuitive about it.
Of course guys who can afford to wait for the girls to be into them have more success, picking up the girls. To pick that apart, the guy will receive an Indication of Interest, and capitalize on that, using all skills in his salesmanship arsenal to grow her interest. In an LTR and regards to marriage, you must also have received huge IOI in regards to marriage, before approach.
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What I’m getting at is that in an LTR you have to be mindful of the power balance. If you start off on the wrong foot – giving power over to her – and do that ritualistically, that moment can follow your entire relationship like a perfume. She will feel authorized, by you, to be a full partner. With equal say.
Don’t make a gesture that makes your wife a full partner. That’s a very, deeply, dumb and wrong move. Be very mindful of the power balance, and keep as much power as you can, to start off with, and always grow it. The man should have full and final authority.
Are you the CEO? Then you know how to delegate wisely. You don’t micromanage. Nor do you tolerate insubordination. If you deserve the authority of CEO in a relationship, and want that, be mindful of how to put yourself in that seat.
Power balance is key and crucial to LTR.
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xsplat: absolutely not. I totally disagree.
I make things romantic because I also enjoy the memory. A real man doesn’t hide his ring so his wife can’t show it off. On the contrary, it’s an expression of his power and generosity, that he can “easily” afford such a ring. Moreover, it shows the woman that he is proud of marrying her and she can show it to everyone. A real man gets respect. She is doing all the work spreading the work about it for you! 🙂
I am not asking her permission. I am being a man and proposing something great. It’s not her role, it’s mine. She can hint, she can show she wants it. I have the power to do it. I make the first move. If I am totally off and she says no, well, her loss for causing a problem. But if it works out, I will have a great memory of everything going RIGHT.
Sure I also think about my future wife’s feelings, it’s only natural for me. I know it’s important to her to have romance. At least, the kind of woman I want actually LIKES romance. (Some girls I met don’t, and it was a turn-off.) Some things, like the wedding dress, yada-yada, that’s her stuff and I don’t want to be involved. She is happy planning all that stuff like she always wanted to. What I care about is being MR RIGHT, loving her and she loves me. The whole point for me is not to bang 100s of chicks. I definitely want to have sex with a variety of hot bitches to get it out of my system. But what’s really important for me when I start a family, is love and respect. Those are the foundations a marriage is based on.
The ring is a symbol of that.
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I don’t agree with xsplat, and I don’t totally agree with Greg, but I do think that:
If this is not the case, you should not be getting married.
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I hadn’t realized you were about to propose, Greg.
The particulars of how you do that are none of my concern. You may find that much of what I’ve said can be viewed the way you would an allegory or metaphor – there is a meta-picture in it more important than the details.
It might work fine for you to give a ring you are proud of and propose romantically. My larger point is not about the details.
I spelled it out more clearly in my last post. Would you like me to try to make it more clear?
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Nah dude. I’m not going to propose anytime soon. I am actually looking for my next girlfriend. What made you think that?
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Biting Beaver quipped:
“AS FAR as i am concerned, MARRIAGE IS AN OFFENSIVE PATRIACHAL SLAVERY.”
As far as I am concerned, with your assent I would love to tie you up and make you my sexual slave for an entire night. I would have my way with you and you would love every minute of it. But I would only enjoy it if you quoted the words of famous feminist writers while I thrust into your tight, delicious, feminist pussy.
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Lilgirl
This is simplistic “if the wife is happy, everyone is happy” thinking. Beta thinking, actually. Harmony comes about through the man leading. Leading well and leading the couple in fun and harmonious and sometimes dramatic ways. You don’t put her feelings first. That’s beta. You don’t think myopically of yourself first – that’s autistic.
Think of the gina tingle. You don’t get it from thinking of her feelings. Not quite.
LTR is the same – its a long term gina tingle. You don’t get it from thinking of her feelings.
You get it from deserved authority – from her yearning and wanting to be close to you. Not from making her happy all time.
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WHOA there tiger, did I say that? Did I even imply that? No, no I did not. Nice try, though.
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@Greg – you were making your argument in the first person: “I am not asking her permission. I am being a man and proposing something great. “, so it gave the impression this is something you were considering.
Still no sign from you if you grasped my point about power dynamics in an LTR, and how important it is to have the upper hand. And no gratitude from you on some tips on how to get it.
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@LILGRL- really? was in response to “it doesn’t matter now, does it?” but, OBE by now.
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@Firepower lollll… you’re on a roll… like a bush fire in california 😉
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JC:
I know where you’re coming from. I had that happen to me. I couldn’t stop thinking about my ex and feeling like shit about her (she broke up with me) even though I was banging a new girl. I finally called her up like you and she was so happy to see me. We had lunch and afterwards over email she started playing hard to get and I don’t know what snapped, maybe it was all that time I spent feeling like crap suddenly came back at once, I decided to let it out so I told her to fuck off. Well, she didn’t reply and de-friended me and it’s been a week and I might have violated a rule about getting pissed and sometimes I feel bad for it but overall I think it’s much better than sitting around and wondering and hoping for her to come back!
It’s like something that happened a long time ago with my cousin. This is a parable because it’s not about women but same concept. He had a bottle full of marbles as a kid which was a treasure back then. Well, my uncle knew that and decided to tease him by sticking the bottle out of the window of the moving car. My cousin threw a wild fit until my uncle gave it back, but my cousin realized that he just made a fool of himself. What he did then was hurl the entire bottle out of the window which absolutely shocked everyone but it was a fuck you to show us that he doesn’t need the bottle. I have to say I was impressed and he redeemed himself. So throw her away.
PS: the girl in the first story was abusive and deserved it. If your ex is nice (ie most people who know her say she is, not your opinion) then you just need to go out, make friends and get over it.
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Guys getting married shouldn’t cave into girl’s total status display fantasies particularly when they’re too expensive relative to the real wealth of the couple and their families.
Even when it’s her father at some point why not suggest he pay off her student loans if she has any, rather than going hog wild on bridezilla wedding expenses. Suggest it to her though, is the way to go. Similarly with engagement rings, where there’s the added factor of the DeBeers rip off, which is very real. (I’m far from a conspiracy guy but this cartel is as real as it gets.)
However weddings DO matter as status displays to women A LOT, as do rings to many. So meet her part way. The object should be to make it look more expensive or even better otherwise high status (creative and “knowledgeable” choice of a different gemstone) than it is. She wants the status look; he wants (or should) a better use of resources for the kickoff of their future together.
Note even non status whoring girls DO get a lot of other girl inquisition on all of this. No just then but thereafter. So try to help her out there, while avoiding bridezilla.
That’s what I did when I got married.
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my bride and i went to the county courthouse one afternoon. had a small lunch with family and a small dinner the next day for friends and family. yet another reason she’s a keeper. no bridezilla crap. i agree with those who have posted, or suggested, that girls who have fixed ideas or fantasies about their proposal or wedding day are more in love with the *idea* of being married, and the emotions and display associated with the ceremony itself, than with *you*, the man she’s marrying. you’re just a prop in her drama about herself. be afraid…
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No shit right lsb its like I have a time limit on this shit lol
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“Losing your life savings is overrated as a life lesson or maybe its not. Who knows. ”
no its not overrated at all! Evaluating your true worth is sometimes complicated in life because there is always the element of luck.. because of the fundamental attribution bias, we humans tend to classify good luck as our skill and blame poor skill on bad luck ..also when one reaches some goal, laziness sets in … the creativity and the energy is gone .. one becomes psychologically fat if you will .. a metaphorical suicide in the form of losing one’s built up life is often a blessing .. and what is more .. going from rich to poor and back to rich again is a huge ego booster .. you can get lucky once, but if you can do it again it is very likely your ability …
As the great Aristotle said, Only two kinds of people are free of fear, those who know nothing of the dangers and those who know everything about the dangers.
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I had a whole rant set up about how weddings and rings being important to girls does not make them evil status bitches, but I’ll just say this:
I agree with Doug.
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I realize my previous sentence was ambiguous, but I’ll assume that most of you are smart enough to figure it out.
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I realize my previous sentence was ambiguous, but I’ll assume that most of you are smart enough to figure it out.
Why should anyone here care what status whores think of “the right way” to do weddings, rings, etc.
That’s like asking a car salesman what he thinks a “fair” price would be for the car you’re thinking of buying.
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”””””””””unlearning genius
“Losing your life savings is overrated as a life lesson or maybe its not. Who knows. ”
no its not overrated at all! Evaluating your true worth is sometimes complicated in life because there is always the element of luck.. because of the fundamental attribution bias, we humans tend to classify good luck as our skill and blame poor skill on bad luck ..also when one reaches some goal, laziness sets in … the creativity and the energy is gone .. one becomes psychologically fat if you will .. a metaphorical suicide in the form of losing one’s built up life is often a blessing .. and what is more .. going from rich to poor and back to rich again is a huge ego booster .. you can get lucky once, but if you can do it again it is very likely your ability …
As the great Aristotle said, Only two kinds of people are free of fear, those who know nothing of the dangers and those who know everything about the dangers.
””””””’
That is the thing though it doesn’t take luck to get rich or as I like to say financially independant. It just takes spendng less than you make and saving money and putting that into shit that makes you money. I was right in my hypothesis at 18 or so and I can very easily envision all the steps involved to do certain things. I know I can work a year and a half and save a hundred k. Now then I can be done working. It is just so fucking easy that it makes a mockery of life and shows just how pathetic all the bickering and worrying about money is along with jealousy envy and the other shit. Then surprize surprize when you have money coming in and don’t have to do shit woman will be knocking on your door. Life is really not worth living. It is just so fucking simple.
Then ya got people going to college and spending the equivelant of being able to retire so that they can feel like they are better than someone else. I mean sure go to college but does that mean you should look down on everyone else or should it make you feel better about yourself.
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For all those considering marriage:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703399204574505700448957522.html
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Re: xsplat, I agree. Chicks in South America will tell you this indirectly all the time. They want to be told what to do. If you inadvertently pull any equalist, feminist-America crap on them like ask them “what do you want to do tonight,” or look for their input on any aspect of the relationship, they will just look at you like you’re stupid and say “you’re the man, it’s your decision.”
And they don’t use diamond rings. The ones from lower-middle-class families who have caring families and conservative parents usually seem pretty good.
However, I’m convinced that bringing one to the U.S. would only ruin her. Backdoorman’s story is tempting, but I’m convinced it’s the exception rather than the rule.
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Yea t-100 why I leave mine right where she is. No use tempting fate that much.
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xsplat: can you please summarize your tips on this? I am curious.
And no, I am not considering getting married any time soon. I agree with your ideas that relationships have to have a dynamic that both of you are happy with.
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Great!! ..very nice ideas…thank yo so much
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“A car pulls up into the middle of the party, with a knight in full armor standing on the hood.
Everyone stopped to see the car “ride” the knight into the party slowly. He jumps from the car, walks up to her, kneels, lifts his visor and proposes to her right there”
Find out more marriage proposal ideas like this at http://proposal-ideas.blogspot.com
Thank you
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Gaurab fuck for the proposal you should do shit like that in the normal course of daily events minus the fake armor.
Like lets say you lay down a motor scooter you use your body as a human shield so she comes out with just a little tiny scratch. Shit like that. he he he
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I loved what I read the other day on the topic about women that think prenups are unromantic and spoil the idea of getting married. The counter was
“You’re right. It is. In fact we shouldn’t get a marriage license either. It’s so unromantic too!”
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You’re a genius…..I wish I knew this stuff when I was younger before I trashed my sorry beta life……
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Wow…never seen alphas discuss soooo much on wedding rings…
Even for an Alpha male its all about diamonds and rings…???
Direct or indirect…you like it or not…
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[…] even if you decide marriage is for you, I myself haven’t completely ruled it out, keep in mind the alternative. If you decide to […]
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[…] At which point Mr R tells her that he would like her to be his wife. Gamesters should note that with an eye on the continuing importance of Game in long-term relationship, even the proposal contai… [Clearly a borderline Super-Alpha proposal (the word "entreat" is perhaps a bit strong, but the […]
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Given the circumstances, Prince Albert does a good job of turning the proposal around on Queen Victoria here:
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How to propose like an Alpha Male:
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/woman_killed_as_her_boyfriend.html
http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=12608668
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Wait till you have fucked her hard enough that she has conked out, put the ring on her finger. When she wakes up, if she does not erupt into shrieks of joyous disbelief, say “if you take the ring off we’re not engaged anymore.”
She will find it very hard to take off….and the longer she keeps it on, the more wedding fantasies will unspool in her head; furthermore, she won’t be able to string you along for long because her friends and family will be sure to see the ring, so she’ll have to decide soon, and you have shifted the default frame so it is easier for her to stay engaged instead of easier for her to stay un-engaged.
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“Some alpha males get married for social or religious reasons…”
No true alpha under the age of 60 gets married for any reason. His “alphaness” will trump all social and religious reasons for marriage.
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