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Chateau Heartiste

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One Key To Marital Success: Have Fewer Options

February 3, 2010 by CH

A dozen readers have emailed me these two articles about the state of American women and their marriage prospects. One even breathlessly asked if this “disproves the CH worldview”. Leaving aside for the moment the oddity of terming a keen grasp of reality as approximating something close to a “worldview”, I had a curious look at the articles. Both articles were written by women (*cough* lesbians *cough*) who don’t much like the recent cultural trend imploring American women to mind the wall and settle for Mr. Good Enough before it’s too late.

Want to Be Happily Married? Go to College.
New research shows women with degrees are luckier in love.

[…] “Marriage rates in the U.S. for college-educated women have risen enormously since the 1950s,” Stevenson said. “In 1950, less than three quarters of white college-educated women went on to marry by age 40 [compared with 90 percent of high-school graduates]. But today, 86 percent marry by age 40, compared with 88 percent of high-school grads.”

Another way of stating this is that by age 40, it continues to be the case in 2010 that more high school-educated women than college-educated women get married. The problem with this study’s conclusions are twofold. One, very few women were attending college in the 1950s. When a huge rate increase is experienced, as in the case of women attending college in the 1950s versus 2010, you run into problems with outlier bias. That small cohort of women going to college in 1950 may have been disproportionately lesbian or ugly or socially maladroit. Trendsetters normally have something odd about them which sets them apart from conventional society, as would be similarly the case for those trailblazing emo dudes who first stormed the vaj walls of formerly female-only colleges like Vassar.

Two, “marriage by age 40” is a poor metric. By age 40, most women’s shelf lives have expired. Thus, all you are measuring is a bunch of overeducated women who delayed marriage to men they truly desired and were forced to settle for a schlump once their looks began the cruel fade in earnest.

Of course, expectations have changed dramatically in the last half century. “In the 1950s, a lot of women thought they needed to marry right away,” Coontz said. “Real wages were rising so quickly that men in their 20s could afford to marry early. But they didn’t want a woman who was their equal; they wanted a woman who looked up to the man. Men needed and wanted someone who knew less.” In fact, she said, research published by sociologist Mirra Komarovsky in 1946 documented that 40 percent of college women admitted to playing dumb on dates. “These days, few women feel the need to play down their intelligence or achievements,” Coontz said.

Maybe I missed the goldmine of statistical inference, but where is the countervailing research showing that “these days, few women feel the need to play down their intelligence or achievements”? Some of these people write as if they haven’t been on a date in ten years. I can tell you that, yes, educated women continue to play down their educational credentials, if not directly then indirectly by avoiding talking about them in favor of interrogating the man about his credentials. This is the case even when their credentials and accomplishments pale in comparison to mine. It is the nature of women to want to look up to a stronger man.

The new research has more good news for college grads. Stevenson said the data indicate that modern college-educated women are more likely than other groups of women to be married at age 40, are less likely to divorce, and are more likely to describe their marriages as “happy” (no matter what their income) compared with other women.

Options means instability. At 40, a woman has fewer options in the mating market, and so she is less likely to be tempted to leave a marriage for a better prospect, or even a different prospect. It is no surprise then, that divorce rates are lower for couples who got married later in life. If you want marital success (I hesitate to call it happiness) then the key is to limit your options. The human rationalization hamster, punch drunk on fermented sour grapes, will then rev up and provide all the excuses you need for maintaining the illusion of marital accord. It’s funny how quickly a lack of choice can render a less than stellar life situation immediately and palpably bearable. “Grow old along with me, the best is yet to be”.

The marriages of well-educated women tend to be more stable because the brides are usually older as well as wiser, Stevenson said.

And uglier.

“When a man with only a high school degree marries by age 20, there’s a 49 percent chance that he will be divorced within 10 years,” she said. “Compare that with the man who gets married in his mid-30s who has a college degree. Ninety percent will still be married 10 years later.”

Time for a game-approved reframe! “When a man with only a high school degree marries a coed hottie by age 20, there’s a 49 percent chance that he will be divorced within ten years, because his sperm and her eggs are itching to dive back into the sampler platter before their windows of opportunity close. Compare that with the college-educated man who gets married in his mid-30s to a mangy cougar on the prowl. Ninety percent will still be married ten years later, because no one else will have them.”

See how illuminating the social sciences can be?

College-educated couples are also more likely to marry for companionship and love and compatibility rather than for financial security.

Translation: College-educated women who delay marriage no longer bring the goods to the table to snag an alpha suitor. College-educated men who marry one of these older college-educated women for lack of options have willed themselves to believe compatibility is an acceptable substitute for hot and sexy babealicious looks.

“For women, financial stability used to be the most important reason for marriage,” she said. “Today, educated women are a lot less concerned about how much their husband earns,” she said, and more interested in whether “he is willing to share child care and housework.”

Keep telling yourself that, sister. To all the men reading this: For the unholy love of the great biomechanical machine in the sky, do not ever allow yourself to listen to women and become a kitchen bitch. That’s a one way ticket to marital oblivion.

Over the last half century, more women and men have been putting off marriage, and the group of women who have never been married at age 40 has grown over time.

This to me seems the most relevant factor in discussions of marriage and divorce rates.

But even among this group, Stevenson said, college grads who want to get married eventually have an advantage because they are  “twice as likely to marry in the next 10 years” as unmarried 40-year-olds with just a high-school degree.

If a beta chump is forced to settle for a past-prime 40 year old woman, it makes sense he would at least find an employed woman who isn’t going to suck him dry with her paint huffing habit. And let’s face it, most of the women in the “unmarried 40-year-old with just a high school degree” group are likely single moms towing around a broodclan of bratty snotnosed ingrates. College-educated spinsters at least have had the decency to refrain from blasting out their wombs with the multiple spawn of past lovers and foisting the product on the schmoes she’s resigned herself to dating.

The data also point to significant racial differences. While white women with college degrees are slightly less likely to marry than their less-educated sisters, a different scenario emerges among African-American women. Today, 70 percent of black college-educated women marry by age 40, compared with 53 percent of those who never finished high school. In the 1950s, black college-educated women were much less likely to marry than those with less education. “What all this tells me is that our perceptions lag behind the reality of our time,” Stevenson said. “College-educated women have been closing the gap very steadily.”

Gee, funny that they left this part out until the very end of the article. So college-educated white women — you know, the type of woman who reads articles in Slate and Newsweek — are less likely to marry than uneducated white women, and that the biggest reason for the change in overall marriage rates of college-educated women is the rapid increase in marital rates of educated black women. I think there’s a story here.

So if you’re looking for another reason to encourage a young woman to get her college degree, add this one to the list: chances are, you’ll be luckier in love.

Not quite, unless by “luckier in love” she means “luckier despite love”.

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Posted in Biomechanics is God, Culture, Marriage Is For Chumps, Ugly Truths | 136 Comments

136 Responses

  1. on February 3, 2010 at 11:02 am Jamila

    Black women are still much less likely to marry than white women in general though. Something like 86% of all white women will get married versus about 52% of all black women.

    And the marriage rate of black women in general has actually been decreasing over the years at a much steeper rate than for white women.

    I think the increasing rate of marriage among college educated black women may also be in large part due to children of African immigrants being lumped in with blacks whose family have been here since slavery. Among Africans there is a much higher cultural predilection towards marrriage than there is among most of the black American population.

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  2. on February 3, 2010 at 11:15 am ASDF

    This seems to work better than proposing at the ball game.

    http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1928739

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  3. on February 3, 2010 at 11:19 am Ari Hinkelberger

    SO SO SO much truth to this.

    “Options means instability. At 40, a woman has fewer options in the mating market, and so she is less likely to be tempted to leave a marriage for a better prospect, or even a different prospect. It is no surprise then, that divorce rates are lower for couples who got married later in life. If you want marital success (I hesitate to call it happiness) then the key is to limit your options”

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  4. on February 3, 2010 at 11:21 am PA

    Buried in a recent thread, a girl asked for advice on how to pick a guy in order to happily marry.

    A male commenter told her to basicaly find a beta. Importantly, I followed up by saying that it can’t be just any ol’ beta. It must be one who can hold his own with other men, and knows his own worth. His betatude must be limited to not having great game with women.

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  5. on February 3, 2010 at 11:22 am Hardcore

    Roissy is to Game what Warren Buffett is to the stockmarket.

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  6. on February 3, 2010 at 11:23 am J R

    this is one case where i disagree with roissy’s analysis. the trend we’re seeing is the possible beginning of two americas. one of highly educated professionals who marry later and choose mates based on their resumes and then have one, maybe two kids whom they raise as designer accessories. rinse and repeat. the other america is the poor and working class who either marry young and outgrow each other or never marry and just have a bunch of kids out of wedlock.

    we’re not to the point yet where this two americas thing is actually the case, but we can see the beginnings of each category in the black and white ghetto cultures and in the upper-middle class professional class.

    roissy is right in that much of the happiness comes from settling, but the settling is more about people foregoing the wild and emotional love of youth in favor of a more pragmatic ‘he’ll make a good father’ form.

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  7. on February 3, 2010 at 11:32 am AmpFit

    Seems as though men, not women, are waking up to the actuality of “love”. Finding completion or compatibility to stave off loneliness isn’t a valid reason for marriage. Beta males disagree.

    Though I have a tough time digesting the metaphysical jargon that lines the script pages of relationship experts, I think David Deida had it right in The Way of the Superior Man:

    Make your mission your focus, not women.

    Women who live by the natural order of things will be attracted to such a man and not feel the need to be overtly clingy. When they know their place in the scheme of things, their needs are fulfilled by alphas. Assuming ‘know their place’ is derogatory is the first lesson feminism teaches.

    Alphas have options since they can do with or without women in part or in whole. The mission matters most.

    College-educated or not, women have the desire to be led. The feminism that is buried in the curriculum of college classrooms tells women that strength comes from total independence; handy when your looks (value) fade, but not so useful leading up to the expiration of eggs.

    And remember statistics, as Roissy has examined here, can be made to demonstrate whatever point an author wants to make.

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  8. on February 3, 2010 at 11:36 am The Truth

    Fuck marriage. It is for losers and chumps.

    LikeLike


  9. on February 3, 2010 at 11:59 am Jack

    Excellent comment PA – What did you think of the film “Up in the Air” where the Clooney character says he will never marry? The feminists got a little dig in the screenplay when they made sure the Clooney character was seen as unable or unwilling to date women in their 20s (the actress they chose as his gf was hot but they made sure she was seen as late 30s – one of the few good casting calls Hollywood has made despite the fact that a guy like him would be hooking up with younger women on average).

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  10. on February 3, 2010 at 12:28 pm Welmer

    Here in Seattle amongst the SWPL crowd, marriage in one’s 30s is the norm for men and women. I think it is mainly a financial issue, as 20-somethings can’t afford a large enough place for children.

    Another issue is that marriage is becoming mainly a middle-class institution. Nobody else can really afford the risk, as relationships are too uncertain for the working classes and a divorce will irrevocably destroy the life of a working-class man. Younger people and the working class are generally living a serial-monogamy lifestyle and having children out of wedlock. Marriage rates are lower than they’ve ever been.

    So what the hell do these statistics really mean?

    Also, think about this: when feminists are starting to extoll the benefits of marriage, you know it’s something that is best avoided.

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  11. on February 3, 2010 at 12:28 pm omegaman93555

    What JR says is very true. Maybe that applies to beta women with beta men.

    I do see 40’s women, with a young child and never married, on match.com. What the fuck, over. Even I’m not that desperate which is saying quite a bit.

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  12. on February 3, 2010 at 12:38 pm Anonymous

    “Roissy Maxim #101: For most women, five minutes of alpha is worth five years of beta.”

    Arnold’s first American girlfriend talks:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/3603696/The-girl-who-cant-escape-Arnie.html

    “After they split up, Baker had a series of disastrous marriages. “But how could I find anyone who could compare?” This was a man so self-confident that he had told her in the Seventies that he would one day be Governor of California.

    “My second husband read my journal the night before we got married and from that day on, Arnold was a four-letter word. He felt completely intimidated, said I was still in love with Arnold. According to that guy, I’d never get over it.”

    Obviously not since she wrote a book about their relationship in 2006:

    http://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Me-Shadow-Austrian-Oak/dp/1425952224/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265218616&sr=1-1

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  13. on February 3, 2010 at 1:01 pm INTP

    “When a man with only a high school degree marries by age 20, there’s a 49 percent chance that he will be divorced within 10 years,”

    “…he will be divorced within 10 years”… BY HIS WIFE

    She will cash out on him while she still has options.

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  14. on February 3, 2010 at 1:09 pm Glossy

    “In fact, she said, research published by sociologist Mirra Komarovsky in 1946 documented that 40 percent of college women admitted to playing dumb on dates.”

    But almost every nerd who’s ever lived has tried to appear less nerdy than he is when talking to attarctive women. “Seeming less nerdy” is in most cases the same thing as “playing dumb”. The quote above reverses reality – many, if not most, men are continually frustrated in their search for female intellectual equals. Women on the other hand only desire smart guys if those guys have made mountains of money with their brains. The brains themselves are incidental.

    “Today, 70 percent of black college-educated women marry by age 40, compared with 53 percent of those who never finished high school.”

    On average, college-educated black women probably have more white ancestry and are more affected by white culturural norms than those who never finished high school.

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  15. on February 3, 2010 at 1:22 pm dragnet

    A textbook Roissy demolition job.

    Well done.

    LikeLike


  16. on February 3, 2010 at 2:09 pm T-1000

    I really hate the modern “college educated” American women in general. They brag, but it’s a transparent bitch defense mechanism in reaction to their own unhappiness.

    Also, the statistic about more women than men going to/graduating college these days is meaningless. Anyone can get into SOME college these days, and the lack of any intellectual rigor in most colleges means that anyone can graduate if they show up. In fact, the liberal arts, where grades are made by bloviating, talking about your feelings, and aping the professor’s leftist worldview, are an ideal environment for most women and their intellectual “skills.” It’s no wonder that they do well in college…better that than having to join the workforce right away, which they are probably incapable of.

    Women’s collective boasting and self-aggrandizement is painfully hollow and see-through. They should just shut up, nobody likes them and they are only furthering their own misery. When they are 40, wrinkly, and have shriveled egg-sacs, they will still blame men.

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  17. on February 3, 2010 at 2:12 pm Backdoor Man

    “The human rationalization hamster, punch drunk on fermented sour grapes, will then rev up and provide all the excuses you need for maintaining the illusion of marital accord. It’s funny how quickly a lack of choice can render a less than stellar life situation immediately and palpably bearable.”

    This is a good line, and I agree with it, but I do take issue with the tone. It suggests that marriage (or an LTR), even a good one, is a process of constant rationalization, a suite of pretty lies we tell ourselves just to get through the day. This may be true, but then, it’s also true of most everything we do. We don’t want infinite options all the time. I certainly don’t want to spend my whole day, every day, wondering whether I bought the right house, if I chose the right career, and if I use the right brand of toothpaste. Should I have worn a different shirt today? Did I really say the right thing to my co-worker just five minutes ago? Did I use the right kind of paper clip for the report I just submitted? You get the idea.

    Sure, once you have committed to somebody, it’s only natural to look around and wonder whether you can find somebody better. But do you want to be constantly looking, always second guessing? After I buy something, I don’t want to think too hard about whether it was a good deal or not, because the deal is already done; there is no going back. This, in some ways, is the alpha state of mind…..moving ahead, no regrets, never acknowledging shortcomings or mistakes that were made. Lots of times, I’d rather be ignorant and happy than enlightened and paralyzed by options. And being happy is really what life is about….

    This isn’t a justification of marriage, because, like most readers of this blog, I think it’s a raw deal for most men, most of the time. My point is that, more often than we realize, life itself forces us to let the rationalization hamster run wild. Without it, we’d go insane.

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  18. on February 3, 2010 at 2:13 pm MNL

    There’s a whole lot more that these data have to say and the authors aren’t saying it.

    The data also point to significant racial differences. While white women with college degrees are slightly less likely to marry than their less-educated sisters, a different scenario emerges among African-American women.

    Wait. What was that in the second sentence? Perhaps the Newsweek people botched the quotes but this has all the markings of a confounding variable. Earlier in the article we read that college-aged women (at age 40 no less!) are more likely to be married than non-college educated women at age 40. Then, we get the above gem which says, after controlling for race, the reverse is true! The real story here may be about the advancement of black women into the college ranks and NOT about higher marriage rates of college-aged women per se.

    And then…

    In 1950, less than three quarters of white college-educated women went on to marry by age 40 [compared with 90 percent of high-school graduates]. But today, 86 percent marry by age 40, compared with 88 percent of high-school grads.

    Why oh why place the cut-off at age 40? Or, even better, why not report results at age 35, 30, and 25 as well age 40 for comparison? I’ll tell you why: the headline-worthiness of the story likely diminishes at the younger ages and when college-educated women are even more clearly less likely to be married than non-colleged. In truth, it’s likely that college attendance delays marriage for all women. Moreover, the improved (since the 1950’s) marriage rates among the arbitrary 40+ college educated may be entirely due to more black women attending college.

    And finally… why the assertion that college-educated women downplay their education for the sake of men only? It’s been spouted so many times it gets taken as fact. Granted, I’m just a sample of 1 but I always found women with whom I could discuss educated topics far more fun & interesting than less educated or stupid women. Me wonders if the women who downplay their education vis-a-vis a man’s do so as much for their own benefit–i.e., for the gina tingle that comes from being with a man who the woman can playhouse-imagine is the more capable, educated, and alpha of the duo.

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  19. on February 3, 2010 at 2:23 pm Rollo Tomassi

    One of the evolutionary triumphs of the human psyche is how readily and autonomously we will make our necessity a virtue.

    Even for these very intellectual female authors’ the latent purpose in doing and reporting their research revolves around fitting an admirable story around their conditions. Pretty lies have to be unassailable and commendable rationalizations in order to protect our ego-investments. Women need the “you go girl” pat on the back with the statistical reassurance that their investments in college and investments in feminine preeminence will ultimately be worth the price they paid for it when they hit 40. The message is essentially, “don’t worry about masculinizing yourselves gals, so long as you’re married by 40 it’s all smooth sailing.”

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  20. on February 3, 2010 at 2:26 pm Luvsic

    “The Truth

    Fuck marriage. It is for losers and chumps.”

    I like Roissy’s post better, but this is the cliff notes

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  21. on February 3, 2010 at 2:28 pm calvinwallace

    Best video… ever.

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  22. on February 3, 2010 at 2:41 pm calvinwallace

    Backdoor Man: I’d say just stop worrying what other people think of you. Do what you want, you don’t have to overthink everything in life, just do it.

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  23. on February 3, 2010 at 2:41 pm Wilbur Simonson

    If women were willing to settle, I’d have been married multiple times instead of being never married and sexless.

    Go look at the online dating profiles of women age 30-70 and try sending a message to a few hundred of them. No matter what their age or how few options they have, women have a long list of requirements and are picky, picky, picky. They would rather be alone with 50 cats than settle for a man.

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  24. on February 3, 2010 at 2:58 pm Tyrone

    I’m 48, and happily married to a much younger woman, who is hot and I still have lots of options, not least because women see me with my wife and want to get my attention so they can claim to be as hot in their own heads. Men have many more options as they get older if they know where to look and understand women and game.

    I am really happy as a married man, but I also use game to maintain control. I get great sex everyday after three years and my wife considers it a question of honor to keep me pleased.

    In general, Roissy is spot on with this analysis above. I just wanted to let people know that a happy marriage is still possible. However, she’s Ukrainian, so get the to the East young man!

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  25. on February 3, 2010 at 3:04 pm Tyrone

    Glossy wrote:

    “many, if not most, men are continually frustrated in their search for female intellectual equals. Women on the other hand only desire smart guys if those guys have made mountains of money with their brains. The brains themselves are incidental. ”

    This is so true! Women are good at rote memorization and doing school work, but most don’t have inquisitive minds in an intellectual sense in the least. I was frustrated for years in this way until I met my wife, but even now, she prefers to read celebrity news rather than an informative article or book. She speaks four languages very well too and has a broad and deep education. Soviet education was very good and this continued after the fall too. Its just not interesting to them.

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  26. on February 3, 2010 at 3:14 pm Chi-town

    Marriage at 40 for a women…What a joke. My wife will be 40 in about 6 years. She is 8 years younger than I am. That means 15 years of family history and her bearing my children. Will I be tempted by young women? Sure, and at 48, I’ll have a bit more trouble pulling it off. I am sure she will look pretty darn good to me. Also, what would have happened if a hot 25 year old told me that I could never see my family again? I would certainly rather do her than my father, but I am not trading my father for her. My wife is now family and not a commodity on the dating market. She is also smart enough to be a decent women. A 50 year old career women trolling around the bars is ridiculous.

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  27. on February 3, 2010 at 3:29 pm titan

    I really get annoyed at “reporters” (or whatever we call the dweebs who write for these craptastic rags) who clearly can’t understand teh plain meaning of the data they write about.

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  28. on February 3, 2010 at 3:31 pm Chi-town

    @Backdoor Man

    You have to look at it the right way. Sex with beautiful young women is certainly the best. What I get out of Roissy is the realization that waiting around until women 40 is ridiculous for both men and women. Men who marry them are not the winners and the women who wait that long have already lost. Does that mean we should dump women at 40? How much sense does that make for a man at 50? Sure, a young women will be a better sexual experience but then so is a view from the top of a mountain a good experience. Its simply a concentrated resource like esiwein. Its good, but little can be made. If this is your absolute goal in life then do meth. Sex with beautiful women releases lots of dopamine. That is why it feels good. Though it will never release as much as meth. At some point that high is too much trouble and more than you can handle.

    What is the lesson? At 30-35, don’t bother with women in their 30’s because you can handle a young 20 something. Its at the right time. Women who wanted to play the girl power game can have their just desserts , the losers and much older men. You will also end up with a women who looks up to you rather than deal with a power struggle.

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  29. on February 3, 2010 at 3:35 pm Chi-town

    @ Tyrone,

    Good advice. My wife is Russian and a great woman. I have been married 6 years and I have no hassles. I get good sex, good food and back rubs.

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  30. on February 3, 2010 at 3:56 pm Backdoor Man

    @ Calvinwallace and Chi-town

    I am hungover today, so perhaps I’m not being clear. My point (I think) is that we use the rationalization hamster all the time, not only to justify our choices in a partner. By using the example of marriage, he was, deliberately or not, making it seem as if we make the hamster run particularly hard to justify that part of our life, because that part is particularly fucked up

    Then again, maybe my point was that I don’t even bother rationalizing my decisions; I just make them, move on, and don’t look back.

    Jesus, I gotta lay off the juice so I can think straight….

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  31. on February 3, 2010 at 4:04 pm Jamila

    As a black woman who has had most of her experience with black men I can say that I have definitely had to play down my intelligence for the average black man that I’ve been involved with.

    When I was in college the black men were obviously a different group of black men as far as intelligence, ambition, and–dare I say it?–morals and values from Joe Shmoe-black guy walking the streets. There the black men preferred intellectual women.

    Now that I’m not in the insulated world of academia anymore I’ve had black men get extremely angry with me to the point of telling me to “kick rocks” and get lost after I disagreed with them regarding politics or economics.

    White educated men tend to marry educated white women. So from my experience and what the statistics say about who marrys whom I have to believe that there will have to be fair amount of “dumbing down” for the average educated woman to get along with a man who doesn’t have as much education as her.

    *Note: education does not equal intelligence and/or a knowledge about politics, history, economics, etc., but for the sake of keeping this post simply I didn’t distinguish between the two.*

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  32. on February 3, 2010 at 4:07 pm sfer

    You are probably right that the stability comes from fewer options. But, the stability is good in any event. An early divorce after having a couple of kids probably isn’t all that much fun.

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  33. on February 3, 2010 at 4:11 pm PA

    On the intelligence thing, I always figured that women very much want guys they consider intelligent; more intellignet than them, in fact.

    The key is the word “consder.” He could be dumb as a bag of rocks, but if for some reason she thinks he’s smart (arrogance can come off as intelligence) she’ll consider him smart. But a girl can’t respect, and thus sleep with, a guy she considers dumb.

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  34. on February 3, 2010 at 4:12 pm omarion

    “This is so true! Women are good at rote memorization and doing school work, but most don’t have inquisitive minds in an intellectual sense in the least. I was frustrated for years in this way until I met my wife, but even now, she prefers to read celebrity news rather than an informative article or book. She speaks four languages very well too and has a broad and deep education. Soviet education was very good and this continued after the fall too. Its just not interesting to them.”

    Boy, is this ever true. Women are absolutely terrific at turning off their impulses and doing hours upon hours of boring, monotonous tasks so long as they get their “gold star” at the end of all of it. They have little to no desire to approach anything they study or work with from an intellectual angle and instead prefer to move through it with a cold, passionless, robotic, machine-like efficiency. They are essential to the functioning of a soulless society that demands its citizens surrender any sort of zeal or enthusiasm for their work just as long as the mission gets accomplished at the end.

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  35. on February 3, 2010 at 4:17 pm Anonymous

    J R (Ewing?) said:

    the trend we’re seeing is the possible beginning of two americas. one of highly educated professionals who marry later and choose mates based on their resumes and then have one, maybe two kids whom they raise as designer accessories. rinse and repeat. the other america is the poor and working class who either marry young and outgrow each other or never marry and just have a bunch of kids out of wedlock.

    I think you are right.

    And the best part is that the rich can hire the poor to fight wars and police the other poor. I know which side I am going to be on, sans the kids though.

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  36. on February 3, 2010 at 4:18 pm too late for romance

    Uh, that was me. My designer accessories will be ridiculously expensive cars and nice sunglasses.

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  37. on February 3, 2010 at 4:32 pm SDaedalus

    So can any marriage work today? The three most positively viewed options among commenters on this blog appear to be:-

    (i) 20s woman with older male – what happens when she hits her 30s or (shock) 40s? If game is ageless, he will have other options even at that point. Unless he was very much older to start with in which case she’s probably okay until he dethaws after cyrogenic freezing.

    (ii) woman with beta. However I would question the assumption that beta=male fidelity. Betas cheat too. They just do it differently.

    (iii) marriage with mistress on the side. The French solution. Possibly combined with (i) for optimum male happiness.

    However on the assumption that a long-standing mistress can be just as much trouble as a wife:-

    (iv) marriage with series of short-term mistresses.

    Which, if any, is the preferred option?

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  38. on February 3, 2010 at 4:47 pm feministx.blogspot.com

    “College-educated men who marry one of these older college-educated women for lack of options have willed themselves to believe compatibility is an acceptable substitute for hot and sexy babealicious looks.”

    Maybe the guy getting married to the 40 yr old cougar is 50 yrs old himself. They have less options but they aren’t quite losers.

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  39. on February 3, 2010 at 4:55 pm feministx.blogspot.com

    Moderation. It kind of rhymes with masturbation. Hey, I look on the bright side.

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  40. on February 3, 2010 at 5:03 pm Welmer

    An early divorce after having a couple of kids probably isn’t all that much fun.

    -sfer

    Heh. No, it isn’t.

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  41. on February 3, 2010 at 5:19 pm Crimsonride

    In defense of college-educated women

    People without college educations are, more often than not, poors. Poors are dumb. They are most often fat. They almost always smell.

    A college degree (especially one from a real college. I’m not talking community colleges like American University) is indicative of good breeding. And that is sort of the goal, isn’t it?

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  42. on February 3, 2010 at 5:31 pm I Said

    If a beta chump is forced to settle for a past-prime 40 year old woman, it makes sense he would at least find an employed woman who isn’t going to suck him dry with her paint huffing habit. And let’s face it, most of the women in the “unmarried 40-year-old with just a high school degree” group are likely single moms towing around a broodclan of bratty snotnosed ingrates. College-educated spinsters at least have had the decency to refrain from blasting out their wombs with the multiple spawn of past lovers and foisting the product on the schmoes she’s resigned herself to dating.

    Again, who could Roissy possibly be speaking of here, especially with the ‘single mother’ part??

    Hmmmm?

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  43. on February 3, 2010 at 5:43 pm whiskey

    PA — Not necessarily. Women will certainly screw a dumb(er) than them stud, say an athlete (famous or not), male model, celebrity, musician (famous or not) etc. It happens all the time.

    Intelligence in men is generally a turn off for most women, unless mixed with testosterone-driven risk taken and arrogance that denotes social superiority. Higher IQ after all correlates nicely with lower testosterone and all women, everywhere, crave testosterone. Just some women have more or lesser limits in what they will trade-off to get it.

    As for Up in the Air, the entire movie ends with the futility of love and marriage. Clooney’s girlfriend, the one he falls for, he finds out when he goes to her house, is married with two kids. Making the idea of commitment a joke. I.E. the relationship with his “soul-mate” was with a cheating married woman. Making marriage itself a joke — that for the urban traveling professional, only screwing lots of women and collecting air miles matters — marry and you’ll just get cheated on no matter how intelligent and charming the wife.

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  44. on February 3, 2010 at 5:47 pm Aldonza

    Compare that with the college-educated man who gets married in his mid-30s to a mangy cougar on the prowl. Ninety percent will still be married ten years later, because no one else will have them.

    No one else will have a college-educated man in his mid-30s other than a mangy cougar? Everything I’ve read here and elsewhere says that he is at the top of his desirability for women of all ages. Even if he married at 35, and ten years later repented, at 45, he’s still quite viable to most ages of women.

    It’s unlikely that he stays married for lack of options.

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  45. on February 3, 2010 at 5:47 pm gunslingergregi

    College degree oh yea that thing that lets you look down on other people because your better now.

    I think people with college degrees are easier to make slaves of then you can dispose of them at 49 and point and laugh.

    But yea I kind of wish I wouldn’t have gone to college for that short period of time because it gave me an idea that was not practical that sidetracked me from the practical things.

    Good barrier to entry to seperate people though because a lot of people without college educations can teach themselves the basics of work in a short period of time and do the jobs that require a college degree quite easily.

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  46. on February 3, 2010 at 5:48 pm Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    I think if you’re getting married you have to go in eyes open and realize you are really buying into a complete package deal. House, kids, family, in-laws, career, the PTA and flushing dead goldfish without laughing at the kids.

    Seeing kids are part of that, I really see not much point marrying a woman over 30.. heck maybe even 27… if you’re intending to make a proper go of it and aiming at a one and done marriage. No point stacking the odds against you for bad pregnancies and trouble getting pregnant.

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  47. on February 3, 2010 at 5:51 pm gunslingergregi

    But yea going along with the system and you make 50k and she makes 50k I would imagine life would be fairly easy. Except it doesn’t seem to work that way because the majority of people are dumb whether they go to college or not. They get their bills up to 90k and have the same spending money as someone making 30k.

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  48. on February 3, 2010 at 6:50 pm Davout

    College-educated couples are also more likely to marry for companionship and love and compatibility rather than for financial security.”

    An alternative explanation is:”College-educated wives are less likely to divorce because they are less likely to profit from divorce by virtue of earning as much or more than their husband.”

    It is probable that college-educated black women have made a calculated ploy to stick it out in a marriage rather than shell out alimony on top of risking losing the kids.

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  49. on February 3, 2010 at 6:57 pm Markku

    Intelligence in men is generally a turn off for most women, unless mixed with testosterone-driven risk taken and arrogance that denotes social superiority. Higher IQ after all correlates nicely with lower testosterone and all women, everywhere, crave testosterone.

    Here goes Whiskey again. If you think being stupider would improve your batting average, I’m sure you can find out what to do to lower your IQ to a more favourable level.

    I can’t see a downside in having a high IQ, particularly a high verbal IQ, from a pussy hunting point of view. Stupid guys without game have harder time learning it than smart guys.

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  50. on February 3, 2010 at 7:02 pm whiskey

    Markku — AVERAGE intelligence is the sweet-spot for TESTOSTERONE. Low IQ men have about the same testosterone level as High IQ men. A man of 70 IQ has on average about the same level of testosterone as that of a man with 130.

    This is why Adventure sports, that denote both testosterone risk taking along with disposable income, are such a hit with guys. BASE jumping, whitewater kayaking, extreme skiing, and so on are chick magnets as are Motocross and squid motorcycles for younger women.

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  51. on February 3, 2010 at 7:06 pm sparks123

    Roissy,

    You’re a genius in telling people what you’re against but it’s so rare that you tell people what you’re for. What is your positive-based advice for young women? If she jumps into marriage too early, especially with an alpha, there’s a chance he could leave her for another woman. If she marries a beta provider in her early 20s, she might end up bored when she could have lived it up for a few years. If she waits too long, she might end up with a man who doesn’t meet her standards.

    Marriage is an incredible leap of faith, regardless of gender. I don’t blame anyone for wanting to wait a while to do it.

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  52. on February 3, 2010 at 7:58 pm omarion

    sparks –

    Roissy’s not here to give advice to women; they have plenty of places to get that.

    He’s here to give advice to men.

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  53. on February 3, 2010 at 8:13 pm xsplat

    BDman

    Sure, once you have committed to somebody, it’s only natural to look around and wonder whether you can find somebody better. But do you want to be constantly looking, always second guessing?

    As a salesman you quickly learn not to overwhelm your customer with choices. The less choices you offer, the more likely you are to get a sale. People don’t want to get buyers remorse, and think to themselves “Oh, but I really liked that other pair of earings also! Should I have gotten them?” So you create an earing board of 50 pairs for display, rather than 200.

    ***

    One thing great about dating a woman of above average looks, is that when you go out on the town, you can feel proud of her. Most of the competition out there won’t be superior. Add to that some chemistry, and you’re doubly proud, as you see hotter couples with no visible spark appear as walking cardboard cutouts advertising boredom.

    For me, as long as I don’t feel trapped, I can get into monogamy. Non-monogamy is more emotion intensive, but amps up the feeling alive juices. What me and my girl have as the plan is building the family and getting the threesomes and parties happening. And of course, I may need to take some business trips from time to time. But she has made her self difficult to replace – she did her job insinuating herself into my life well. Kudos to the girl. She made it so that my life is better stably connected to her than not. Even though I’m such a slut.

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  54. on February 3, 2010 at 8:15 pm anon

    Roissy: Please comment on the claims found in “The Bell Curve” relating to marriage and college.

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  55. on February 3, 2010 at 8:16 pm SDaedalus

    Regarding Up in the Air, George’s lady friend sums herself up pretty well in the following comment: “Just imagine I’m you with a vagina”. I’m still not sure if her character is meant to be an icon or a parody of American womanhood.

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  56. on February 3, 2010 at 8:27 pm Breeze

    @ Roissy: The term ‘worldview’ is used by those people who think reality is a social construct. They are the people too afraid to admit that there is an objective reality which may not be to their liking.
    In olden times people thought God created man and thus everything bad was just temporary on the way to heaven.
    Modern fools think that everything is a social construction, and therefore not ‘real’ and can somehow be changed to provide heaven on earth with the right tweaks.

    @ PA: I remember a smart chick who banged some of the dumbest dudes ever. She kept trying to tell me that they were all smarter than they looked. Women are great are rationalising their gina tingles, as Roissy would say.

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  57. on February 3, 2010 at 8:43 pm xsplat

    They are essential to the functioning of a soulless society that demands its citizens surrender any sort of zeal or enthusiasm for their work just as long as the mission gets accomplished at the end.

    This is why for some positions I prefer to hire only women. They make great clerics, and there is a much smaller chance that they will steal your business ideas and start a competing enterprise.

    For any job that requires creativity, I’m forced to hire men.

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  58. on February 3, 2010 at 8:48 pm Horatio Sanchez

    Nice dissection of media lies, Roissy. The golden rule when dealing with media coverage of marriage: assume it’s all lies, with a malicious agenda behind it.

    For example, one of their favorite canards is about how fewer people are getting divorced. While this may be true, at least in certain years, it’s a purposefully skewed piece of cherry picking; the reason fewer people are getting divorced is because the marriage rate has literally HALVED since 1970. So, yeah, when you have half as many marriages in the first place, you’re going to have fewer divorces. This is not exactly a vote of confidence on marriage, yet this is what the media liars want you to believe.

    Again: assume they’re lying until proven otherwise. Since when is the media going to do men any favors on an important issue like that, anyways, right?

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  59. on February 3, 2010 at 9:00 pm strikeforcemorituri

    Welmer,

    I agree with your assessment of the marriage age bracket here in Seattle, I agree for a working class male here divorce would be a financial nightmare. If you consider how quickly the courts would favour the woman over a man regarding custody of children. You have the makings of a group of men that just won’t marry until the woman is close to the end of her child bearing days. I have had many a conversation with men in my age (36) bracket that will not marry the women they live with based on this fact.

    Women over 40 with higher education degrees here in Seattle are highly delusional in regards to their status, and there are a many men here who do nothing more than keep the fallacy of these women beliefs alive.

    On my end I let women know up front I’m working class and I could care less what they degrees they have, what they drive, live in, or wear. I’m happy with my life the way it is, without being married.

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  60. on February 3, 2010 at 9:08 pm xsplat

    Whiskey

    Higher IQ after all correlates nicely with lower testosterone

    Really? Are there studies about that you can point to?

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  61. on February 3, 2010 at 9:19 pm xsplat

    Markku

    I can’t see a downside in having a high IQ, particularly a high verbal IQ, from a pussy hunting point of view. Stupid guys without game have harder time learning it than smart guys.

    Spot on.

    And smart girls are the easiest to fuck. Who else but a smart chick will be turned on by your wit? Smart girls are sooooo easy.

    And dumb girls just get easier to game, as you learn to see through each and every barely-conscious emotional ploy, and learn to turn her on and turn her over to the dark side of your emotional force.

    My advise to Whiskey – stop expecting so much of women. Stop looking for a good one. Get over your pie in the sky dreams of landing what you want, and compromise, and compromise hard. Get over your big dreams, and have some fun.

    Take what you can get.

    The best kids shows, like Sesame Street or Pee-Wee hermans Playhouse, or Spongebob, or Dexters Laboratory, all contain inside jokes that adults love. So when dating a dumb girl, you make inside jokes that only you get. It’s like making commentary on a blog forum that is over the heads of most people – you do it for the sake of your art. You can still excersize your brain a bit, and get some kick. Better than holding out for that great conversation with the perfect intellectual peers in a Paris Salon.

    Comparing each girl to the penultimate girl just gets in your way. Get your hands dirty with the imperfect.

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  62. on February 3, 2010 at 9:53 pm newly divorced

    Divorce ruins the lives of more than just working class guys. I was an upper class professional guy. I’m going to lose my entire life’s savings (20 years of work) after my two year marriage.

    Guys – Don’t even think about it! Once you get married, you are treated like a criminal and you have less rights than a criminal suspect. You can and will lose everything. Just hope you don’t end up an ailimony or child support slave.

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  63. on February 3, 2010 at 10:04 pm chic noir

    Jamila Now that I’m not in the insulated world of academia anymore I’ve had black men get extremely angry with me to the point of telling me to “kick rocks” and get lost after I disagreed with them regarding politics or economics.

    Are you having conversations with blk men about politics and economics or are you attempting to debate them? If it’s the latter, well you could bet most men would become angry with you.

    jamilla I think the increasing rate of marriage among college educated black women may also be in large part due to children of African immigrants being lumped in with blacks whose family have been here since slavery. Among Africans there is a much higher cultural predilection towards marrriage than there is among most of the black American population

    Very true and it’s the reason why I shake my head when these guys talk about West Africa being the home of “Out Of Wedlock” births.

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  64. on February 3, 2010 at 10:05 pm gunslingergregi

    Explain how after two years of marriage you lose your life savings so that others may learn.

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  65. on February 3, 2010 at 10:26 pm JEM

    I’ve rarely dated a man as smart as I. It wouldn’t be worth the time to pretend to be dumber than he, but certainly I try not to draw attention to his intellectual short comings.
    I’ve just turned 30, am a college professor, and having dated 20 year old meat heads and 40 year old divorcees in the past year, I’m quite happy to spend my free time with my dogs and ponies.

    Most of the above comments prove my decision is the most prudent and least self-destructive.

    The article, however, arguably gets one point correct: waiting for the next best thing isn’t always a good plan.

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  66. on February 3, 2010 at 11:06 pm xsplat

    Jem

    I’ve just turned 30, am a college professor, and having dated 20 year old meat heads and 40 year old divorcees in the past year, I’m quite happy to spend my free time with my dogs and ponies.

    Meatheads can give just as much, if not more love, than can a dog.

    People who retreat to pets have a mockable lack of social finesse. They can’t take pleasure in the simple HUMAN stupidities, and take pleasure in stead from even simpler ANIMAL stupidities. If only they could learn to harness the inner animal of their mates.

    If you are content with no conversation, and just sharing animal pleasures, a human will grant you much more animal pleasure and affection than can any animal.

    If you can learn to harness that human – which is of course much more difficult than harnessing a dumb dog.

    Animal lovers are simply lazy and lacking social talent.

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  67. on February 3, 2010 at 11:26 pm E-Jizzle

    “So if you’re looking for another reason to encourage a young woman to get her college degree, add this one to the list: chances are, you’ll be luckier in love.”

    I love this. They are telling their readers to encourage women to go to college because they want them to get married.

    This is just another obsession-with-marriage article. This is old academic, white women telling other women to do what they did. The psychological reasons for this are obvious to everyone but themselves. Note there is no corresponding research or encouragement on the male side. Least they don’t put articles in magazines about it.

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  68. on February 3, 2010 at 11:26 pm Joe

    Thats ok jem you’re expired anyways

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  69. on February 3, 2010 at 11:30 pm whiskey

    xsplat — Check out Gene Expression. You’ll probably have to do Google-fu to search their site, but they had several studies they linked to regarding IQ-Sex. Unsurprisingly, for example, about 70% of Math-Science majors at Yale were virgins as seniors, but 0% were virgins as Freshman who were Art majors.

    High Verbal IQ is not enough, and in fact can lead to fairly oblivious action, misreading signals or not being aggressive enough or showing enough dominance, risk-friendly behavior, and so on. Often High IQ people particularly MEN, and this is true of high verbal IQ men as well, miss cues or body language or self-monitoring as a “performance” that leads to romantic/sexual success.

    This can be mitigated by DHV of action sports or other stuff like it.

    See also JEM:

    I’ve just turned 30, am a college professor, and having dated 20 year old meat heads and 40 year old divorcees in the past year, I’m quite happy to spend my free time with my dogs and ponies.

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  70. on February 3, 2010 at 11:39 pm xsplat

    This is just another obsession-with-marriage article.

    Nope, Ejizzle, it’s not even about getting married at all. It’s about making an argument against an argument against focusing on career.

    It’s just happenstance that the argument she’s arguing against is about marriage.

    She’s not pro marriage. She’s pro career focus.

    All her words are just blah blah blah blah. Her agenda is that women should self actualize through education and career, and that this is more important than a marriage partner.

    The way she makes her case is to say that marriage is not MORE important than carreer and education, because carreer and education will likely lead you to a better marriage.

    The ONLY reason she is even talking about marriage, is because she’s pro carreer and education.

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  71. on February 4, 2010 at 12:09 am xsplat

    Whiskey

    Check out Gene Expression. You’ll probably have to do Google-fu to search their site, but they had several studies they linked to regarding IQ-Sex. Unsurprisingly, for example, about 70% of Math-Science majors at Yale were virgins as seniors, but 0% were virgins as Freshman who were Art majors.

    That’s what I thought, Whiskey, you just pulled out the testosterone/IQ association out of your ass.

    You really ought to retire that speculum.

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  72. on February 4, 2010 at 1:08 am gorblimey

    xsplat,

    though i hate to defend whiskey, you’re wrong:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0D-4MJJGPP-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c13993eea22e26ff287c04cc6560ee81

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  73. on February 4, 2010 at 1:12 am xsplat

    Gorblimey, you did notice that the study you linked was talking about boys that haven’t gone through puberty yet?

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  74. on February 4, 2010 at 1:50 am Jamila

    @chic noir

    Are you having conversations with blk men about politics and economics or are you attempting to debate them? If it’s the latter, well you could bet most men would become angry with you.

    But why are they getting that angry is the real question?

    I would also like to add this: a conversation in which two people disagree will turn into a debate, unless one of the people changes the subject or one person starts pretending that they agree when they really don’t.

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  75. on February 4, 2010 at 4:15 am strikeforcemorituri

    Jamila,
    As a black man who has had the experience of debating with a black woman with a higher education degree over political policy or other matter of import, I can tell you that they seem to only really be focused on how that decision effects them as a woman. Also I notice an overbearing urge to upstage and dominate me as a man to prove that they can hold their own against me. Black men have it hard enough as it is from society to prove themselves equally qualified for positions in the workplace, and other parts of society. What black man wants to deal with that ish from a black woman.

    I think what you mean to say is that you can’t seem to understand why your phone doesn’t ring after trying to upstage these men

    Obsidian has an excellent post on this very subject. I strongly suggest that should go over there and check it out. I think you might learn something.

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  76. on February 4, 2010 at 4:18 am Jack

    True: The article was not about promoting marriage but far from it. It was about justifying a young woman rejecting great older males while she is young in order to pursue an education and career after which she can, at 40, supposedly find happiness with the best men (in a world where a woman would rather spend 5 days with an alpha than 50 years with a beta).

    To the guy who lost the life savings after 2 years of marriage – huh?? How exactly does that happen? I thought laws said the woman gets only what you earned after the marriage?

    Am I missing something here?

    Because, and this goes to all wronged divorced men out there including the billlionaires – if you guys are too stupid to graphically point out the exact unfair circumstances of how you got robbed, the rest of us are only left with a vague uneasiness that marriage might somehow be expensive.

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  77. on February 4, 2010 at 4:34 am enamdar

    I used to get really depressed by the Roissy worldview. Although I’m somewhat of a neutral observer, since I’m more of an omega jerk, rather than beta nice guy.

    I WISH I had grown up in the world so many of you had where the fact that girls dig jerks is a”shocking” Red Pill for anyone over 6.

    So I started reading all the HBD lit, which is the science behind Roissy. And basically the whole PUA uses alpha and beta interchangeably with R and K strategies. R is the earliest and easiest form of sexual reproduction. Plants that literally sow their oats, and frogs that flood ponds with sperm practice it.

    Or perhaps it is simply the difference between the R K reproduction strategy of Steve Sailer, and HBD movement. R strategy is like machine gun fire, K like a sniper shot. Investment in offspring. But again this HBD argument is also a financial one, since it is about careful investment versus ostentatious waste. In this sense Roissyites who rely so much on HBD literature to justify, sex success is everything, ignore the fact that HBD favors the K strategy as the producers of all the glory of civilization and imperialism. The ultimate victors. And in that sense the very birth control revolution, that allows them to have their sexual conquests, makes them genetic favors. They can brag that IF they were a chimp having that much sex, they would be an alpha male but thats the IF.

    There were hundreds of black and brown Roissy’s in the 20th strategy practicing R strategy. Yet they were actually more successful since they at least spread their genes, even if survival chances were lower because of low investment.

    R plants < fish < reptiles < Chimps < Negroids < Caucasoids K (beta?)

    Disney romantic love is not idealistic manginas, but a British Gatling-gun regiment against a Zulu army.

    In the Darwinian game, sexual pleasure is just a means to an end. So a PUA saying sex partners and a monk saying bible readings, is the measure of success are both equal failures if their genes do not survive.

    So the very birth control that makes this the "golden age of the alpha male", makes the R strategy less affective than ever. Since all that is gained is sexual pleasure, which in Darwinian terms is just masturbation with a partner. So with "Alphas" shying away from the feminist death-traps of marriage alimony and family child support, what was once a "beta" R strategy has become an omega strategy.

    The so-called alpha male R strategy has become an omega strategy.

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  78. on February 4, 2010 at 6:34 am Markku

    Whiskey, the issue is testosterone, not IQ. Who cares if the two correlate negatively in the right half of the IQ distribution. If you want more testosterone, it is available as supplements. Don’t blame your high IQ for your low testosterone.

    High intelligence is conducive to more self-awareness. Given the opportunity to learn game, an intelligent man is certainly better equipped than a stupid man, all other things equal. Learning game a textbook example of a process that relies on general intelligence because what it teaches goes against habits at first.

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  79. on February 4, 2010 at 7:59 am PA

    Whiskey, the issue is testosterone, not IQ

    It’s not purely a matter of testosterone either. It’s guys with balanced levels of above-average intelligence and testosterone that do best. Burly dim-bulbs aren’t known as ladies’ men.

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  80. on February 4, 2010 at 8:07 am PA

    Even in primitive environments like prison gangs it’s not the highest-T guy who is the boss, but the smartest and most charismatic one. The big high-t guys are his goons. If there were women around, those guys, not the high-t gorillas, would get the best ones.

    I think Whiskey is equating IQ with anemic introverted nerdhood, when there is likely nothing more than a mild correlation between the two.

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  81. on February 4, 2010 at 10:11 am Jamila

    strikeforcemorituri,

    Please spare me the “I’m a black man and I have it SOOOOOO hard in society” spiel.”

    I dont know whether or not the overbearing urge to upstage that you say you get from these women is really occurring or if its only in you mind, I suspect the latter. Did these attempt to speak louder than you? Did they attempt to embarrass you in front of people?

    Or did they just refuse to agree and in your mind a woman that won’t agree after you’ve expressed your far superior male intelligence along with buttressing your arguments with “its a hard world out here for a black man, ” is overbearing?

    However I do understand your point that many black men have fragile egos. After spending the day being dominated by the white man he should atleast be able to dominate the black woman. Makes perfect sense to me.

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  82. on February 4, 2010 at 10:23 am Jack

    Guys,

    AOL just incorporated the mentally sick feminist LemonDrop.com womyn’s website as part of their standard “we don’t pay anybody for content” fare.

    Their worst sickness is in promoting Cougars while seriously de-promoting Older Men and Younger Women. They actually go into hatred over-drive at the idea of an older man being interested in younger women.

    I recommend that some of you shut down your accounts permanently there in protest (you don’t need to pay $225 per year for an email address anymore).

    Get over to LemonDrop.com and let them know about this site and don’t let cougars show hatred for the opposite lifestyle. Let them know that it is fine for Cougars to take the younger men while we take the younger women – that we can operate as team players – but we will NOT accept the radical feminist idea of them trying to pretend that society is going to reverse itself to one of women dating younger men and not visa versa.

    There is one decent new article about the new book “Marry Him” which tells women to settle after age 30. But check out the article on speed dating where a 47 year old guy named Dave gets raked over the coals for saying he wants a woman as young as….get this…..30.

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  83. on February 4, 2010 at 11:12 am BizzyBrain

    Why do learned writers and many others call it a high school “degree?” It ISN’T a degree. It’s an effing DIPLOMA!

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  84. on February 4, 2010 at 11:49 am p29

    JEM, 30 is a time you should be running to find a committed relationship. Guaranteed you’ll miss it later, and now practically every day means you’re less likely to get what you want in a partner, since that’s usually what a lot of other want too. You can still get a good man on around your own level of attraction if you can settle for someone 40-45, which will be much harder for you at 40 or 50.

    “I’ve rarely dated a man as smart as I. It wouldn’t be worth the time to pretend to be dumber than him, but certainly I try not to draw attention to his intellectual short comings.”

    Ok, so you have one thing right, so why date all the meatheads? Do the smart guys need to be successful, rich, handsome etc. too?

    You know that there are a lot more guys than girls in the upper echelons of the IQ-spectrum right? As far as I remember it’s about 1 to 3 or 4 at 98th percentile, and around 1 to 13 at hard science Nobel laureate level. Look at the top female chess players for example, Judit Polgár is still the only female player in the top 100 all players, and even though she’s by far the best female chess player in history, she’s only ever just been inside top 10.

    You don’t seem interested in what would make a high intelligence man interested in a long term commitment with you outside your smartness. Are you a great cook/lover/support to your man? Do you look good? These brains talk about, are they the kind that are measured somewhat objectively, or are they just measurements of how much you’re grown into educational feminist conformity? A lot of women on the net really lack insight. One Jeezobel reader not long ago remarked she didn’t know/was really disappointed her friend wouldn’t be her boyfriend just because she was short, morbidly obese and looked like a caterpillar according to herself, because they were such soul mates. A lot of times, women will simply use their fantasies about some far out romantic mind connection to block out the reality that they’re not attractive, not good at accommodating the other part’s needs etc.

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  85. on February 4, 2010 at 11:51 am Del-Taco

    “The way she makes her case is to say that marriage is not MORE important than carreer and education, because carreer and education will likely lead you to a better marriage.”

    Arguing that getting an education is good because it’ll help you get married implies someone is obsessed with getting married, either the audience or the writer or both.

    If she was really promoting education she’d advocate it regardless of it’s effect on marriage status.

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  86. on February 4, 2010 at 1:59 pm theobsidianfiles

    Jamilla, SFM,
    Since my name came up in the comments, I that to join in.

    I can’t speak for SFM Jamilla, but for me, the issue isn’t agreement, but rather factfinding and clarity on where and my interlocuter, in this case a college educated Black Woman may disagree. In fact, I’ve found that if anything, it’s the exact opposite of what you suggest, that it’s the Sista who’s trying to get me to agree with her point of view. This makes sense, since it’s a fact that Women as a rule don’t like dissention or being a raised nail, hence one major reason why Black girls go farther than boys in school. I was kicked out of class continually for refusing to play along to get along, and for calling my WHITE teachers pathetically incompetent in their inability to hold my attention and make the realworld case for my needing to learn the ruminations of lond dead White Men, and how that directly appiled to my world as a Black Man. And since I’ve had considerable experience in both the Blue Collar and college campus worlds, I can say without reservation that most college educated Black Women couldn’t hold a candle to me when it comes to political debate on the issues. In fact, most have never studied a Logic 101 course, to say nothing of debate, and most suck at rhetoric, both in terms of formulate a convincing argument and the ability to deliver it in oral form. What they often do, is use their credentials as a foil for their subjective poilitical views, which is fine, but then if we’re going to have a pissing contest about such things, SHOW ME YOUR DATA, I’ll show you mine, and then we can determine where the rubber hits the road. What a lot of Sistas in this cohort get it twisted is that what either of us knows or doesn’t about Churchill, Reagan, Burke or Cicero has ZERO to do with what goes on under the covers at night.

    Having said all that, yes, there are some Black Men who are indeed intimidated by “strong” Black Women. However, based on again, my direct experience in these matters, it’s alot more overblown than it is currently presented.

    In any event, I too have been aware of the articles that are at the heart of this post and am very familiar with Coontz’s work as I have read her book on marriage and other matters. By the way Jamilla, fun question, have you read Coontz’s book? What about Hacker’s Mismatch? Or Tiger’s The Decline of Males? Or the book, Promises I Can Keep? They all directly speak to the issues we are examining, and I can promise you, I can find more Ivy League educated Black Women who haven’t even heard of the aforementioned books let alone their authors, than you can who have read them. To say nothing of the Federalist Papers, The Prince , Plato’s Republic or Churchill’s memoirs, just to name a scant few.

    So…you were saying?

    The Obsidian

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  87. on February 4, 2010 at 3:00 pm Open Letter To Jamilla & StrikeForce « The Obsidian Files

    […] http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/one-key-to-marital-success-have-fewer-options/#comment-154747 […]

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  88. on February 4, 2010 at 3:41 pm Ghost

    Once an IQ gets above 140 or so, social skills tend to really take a dive, as so much social interaction is counter-intutive, hypocritical, and/or banal. I’ve found that many “meat-heads” or similiarly stupid thug types often possess natural Alpha qualities, mainly because they are too limited in intelligence to realize they aren’t special, and thus have an over-inflated ego, something women admire. Highly intelligent men are generally smart enough to know they aren’t that special, even though they are aware they are smarter than average, so an ego is something they must learn to fake, hence “game”. Intelligence is undervalued as we continue to evolve as a species, mainly I believe, because it only takes a few geniuses to design a nuclear power plant, but hundreds of worker bees to build it. If we were all 140 IQ’s, who is going to dig the ditches?

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  89. on February 4, 2010 at 4:02 pm Ghost

    “xsplat

    Gorblimey, you did notice that the study you linked was talking about boys that haven’t gone through puberty yet?”

    IQ is malleable, but its range is largely determined by genetics, and will often be set before puberty. Exceptions always exists. Whiskey makes a good point about high intelligence often being negatively correlated with social skills. A high IQ male systemizing brain has less “space” devoted to complex human social interactions, (unless said someone decides to systemize human social interactions, ie. “game”). Stereotypes don’t pop out of thin air. The nerd and geek memes are not fallacies, but reflections of reality. High IQ also does not equate with “smart”. A good sense of meta-cognition and a strong problem solving schema serve a person better than raw computational power.

    I would like to add, that in my personal opinion, IQ has less to do with true revolutionary thinking than does the power of visual-spatial thinking combined with creativity.

    “Imagination is more important than knowledge.”

    Albert Eienstein

    Words are often weak substitutes for reality.

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  90. on February 4, 2010 at 4:37 pm Bill

    Roissy, you keep competing with the younger guys for those vapid “hot” psycho bitches. I’ll enjoy my intelligent women my own age who have already had their children, thank you very much. The only imperative driving them now is sex.

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  91. on February 4, 2010 at 4:48 pm ephebophile

    A common PUA viewpoint of marriage:

    LikeLike


  92. on February 4, 2010 at 5:32 pm strikeforcemorituri

    Jamila,

    What’s really sad is that you did exactly what I expected from you, but then again you are a woman what else would I expect?

    LikeLike


  93. on February 4, 2010 at 5:42 pm Jamila

    Strikeforcemorituri,

    You feel back on “yousa woman!!!,” which is pretty much EXACTLY what I expected of you.

    LikeLike


  94. on February 4, 2010 at 5:44 pm Markku

    Obsidian:


    I was kicked out of class continually for refusing to play along to get along, and for calling my WHITE teachers pathetically incompetent in their inability to hold my attention and make the realworld case for my needing to learn the ruminations of lond dead White Men, and how that directly appiled to my world as a Black Man.

    It is unfortunate indeed, that your teachers were unable to inform you about how your reality as a black man may have been different, had the thinkers of the Enlightenment, who no doubt were well-represented among the long dead white men in question, not invented the ideas they did. In that alternative reality, you might have been born a slave. Besides, while those of your ancestors who were brought to America as slaves were very unfortunate, it could’ve been worse for them. If they had been East Africans captured African slaver hunters working for the Arabs, there is a good chance they would’ve faced the horrendous sexual mutilation of not-so-surgical castration (done to both males and females resulting about 90% mortality rate) on their way to the slave market.

    Ghost:


    Once an IQ gets above 140 or so, social skills tend to really take a dive, as so much social interaction is counter-intutive, hypocritical, and/or banal. I’ve found that many “meat-heads” or similiarly stupid thug types often possess natural Alpha qualities, mainly because they are too limited in intelligence to realize they aren’t special, and thus have an over-inflated ego, something women admire. Highly intelligent men are generally smart enough to know they aren’t that special, even though they are aware they are smarter than average, so an ego is something they must learn to fake, hence “game”.

    So, the typical intellectually average guy is now a meat head and a thug?

    If we were all 140 IQ’s, who is going to dig the ditches?

    Robots. A continually worsening problem in developed economies is the diminishing number of decently paid jobs for the left half of the IQ distribution.

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  95. on February 4, 2010 at 6:57 pm theobsidianfiles

    Markku,
    While I see your point, and it is legitimate to a great degree, it is incomplete. African Americans played just as important a role in the New World as their slavemasters. In any event, it wasn’t the History class that was at issue, but others.

    The Obsidian

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  96. on February 4, 2010 at 7:51 pm Ghost

    “So, the typical intellectually average guy is now a meat head and a thug?”

    I didn’t mean to imply that. I’m just trying to summarize complex trends into a paragraph or two, so I could’ve been more clear. IQ 140 is a somewhat arbitrary number also. Typical a-social personalities associated with high IQs may start anywhere from around 120 to 160 IQ, and obviously would depend on the individual (I’m a believer in multiple intelligences. IQ is just a measure of a one set of cognitive skills, not anywhere near all of them.), but my point is that there will generally be a cognitive trade off at some point where social skills will begin to be sacrificed for various processing abilities (not always, again, I generalizing). I would think many meat-heads and thugs are of average intelligence anyways, but just don’t pursue intellectual endeavors, although many of them I’m sure are a little dense. Most people play to their strengths, even stupid people.

    “If we were all 140 IQ’s, who is going to dig the ditches?

    Robots. A continually worsening problem in developed economies is the diminishing number of decently paid jobs for the left half of the IQ distribution.”

    Good point. Why then I wonder are women not naturally attracted to nerds and scientists. Are they simply stuck in a hunter-gatherer mindset. I guess that is somewhat the point of game. Its a shame women are driven so much by instinct, especially when those instincts are counter productive to our modern environmental needs. I also think part of the problem is our feminized education system that doesn’t promote competition or excellence in fear of offending people lacking in ability. From what I remember reading once, a significant portion of dropouts are actually “gifted” students who are bored or discouraged by an educational system that seems to promote mediocrity and conformity.

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  97. on February 4, 2010 at 8:57 pm xsplat

    Del-Taco, I see your point, but if I ask myself what she is defending, and what she is advancing, I don’t get marriage as the answer, as much as I get female empowerment, free will, choice and independence. I see that the structure of all her ideas revolves around this central agenda.

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  98. on February 4, 2010 at 9:08 pm xsplat

    Whiskey makes a good point about high intelligence often being negatively correlated with social skills.

    If that’s the point he wants to make, then he can make it. Saying that high IQ adult males have less testosterone than average IQ adult males asks for evidence. He says that as if it’s a nugget of truth, and not just some random nugget clinging to his ass crack.

    I’ve mentioned again and again that the correlation Whiskey draws between high IQ and nerdiness is way, way, way overblown. Overblown to the point of ridiculosity. A grain of truth does not an accurate worldview make.

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  99. on February 4, 2010 at 9:40 pm KM3

    “…once their looks began the cruel fade in earnest”

    GOLD!

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  100. on February 4, 2010 at 10:36 pm brightstormyday

    @Ghost:
    “I’ve found that many “meat-heads” or similiarly stupid thug types often possess natural Alpha qualities, mainly because they are too limited in intelligence to realize they aren’t special, and thus have an over-inflated ego, something women admire.”
    Actually, I’ve met a few “meat-heads” and they’re usually:
    a) physically attractive
    b) popular and outgoing with everyone and considered “chill” by everyone
    c) ATHLETES (in some cases)
    d) not socially awkward; know how to flirt and approach girls, have confidence in approaching girls.

    Some “meatheads” I’ve met, are, surprise, top students studying things like…engineering. Strange? Maybe. But being good in the classroom, on the field, and in the bedroom? Good reasons for having an “over inflated” ego.

    “Highly intelligent men are generally smart enough to know they aren’t that special, even though they are aware they are smarter than average, so an ego is something they must learn to fake, hence “game”. ”
    They’re aware of their intelligence, yet they have no ego? Listen, I’ve met quite a few incredibly intelligent men who are, without a doubt, arrogant assholes. I notice the guys who struggle socially are introverted nerds; these introverted nerds aren’t necessarily the ones with the highest GPAs, and very few are described as “smart but lazy.” Most are just:
    a) not that attractive
    b) late in development (puberty)
    c) dirty (seriously, I recall one kid covered in acne and all greasy and smelly, ew.)
    d) antisocial
    e) very guy stuff oriented that doesn’t turn girls on (ie video games, Lord of the Rings; not sports)
    f) awkward

    They don’t necessarily have high IQs, or talents beyond getting to Levl 79 in Wow or whatever.

    They have low self esteem because they’re aware that they don’t actually do anything that contributes to society.

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  101. on February 5, 2010 at 12:17 am xsplat

    I notice the guys who struggle socially are introverted nerds

    There are introverted nerds who lack confidence, and then there are introverts who take pride in whatever talents they have, and display so much confidence that it’s indistinguishable from arrogance.

    Some people equate introversion with a lack of social skill. While there is broad overlap, the two ideas are distinct. A shy person can still be confident. He just rarely finds the mood for extraverted display in a group or with strangers – unless maybe he’s drunk.

    But a person with a naturally introverted personality can develop average or even well above average interpersonal skills. Introversion does not equate to social retardation.

    Personality development does not culminate in high school. Adulthood is a continuing education that can still mold a developing personality – at least up until age 24, and them to a lesser and slower degree still afterwards. If an introvert puts himself into social situations, over and over, he’ll gain social skills.

    Consider the natural born athlete. From a young age, he could balance a socker ball on his foot and kick it into the air a hundred times without it ever touching the ground. The guy with little co-ordination was less interested, and strugled when playing hackysack in a group. But over time and with practice he couldn’t help but become at least somewhat proficient. And because of his compulsive attention to detail, ahe mastered a few fine movement tricks that no one else thought of.

    Social skills are like that. You may start out of the gate at a disadvantage, but with practice, you wind up with a quirky and individual personality that has a natural confidence born out of the results of all the trial and error experiments you were forced to do. An introvert may never be a social pro-athlete, but neither must he be a social retard. Practice, even for introverts, can’t help but have an effect. Introverts can be confident too.

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  102. on February 5, 2010 at 12:36 am brightstormyday

    @xsplat:

    True; I’m introverted and I consider myself to have some social skills.

    Most people, strangely enough, think I’m outgoing.

    I’m saying, though, that introversion is more likely to breed someone antisocial than extroversion, although there is a possibility of there being an annoying, clingy, extrovert that doesn’t do well socially.

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  103. on February 5, 2010 at 12:38 am brightstormyday

    Oh, and that reminded me….

    my ex used to be incredibly introverted. He taught himself how to talk to people and get along with them. Being attractive also helped him, because girls would approach him.

    He is, according to myer briggs, now an extrovert.

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  104. on February 5, 2010 at 12:40 am xsplat

    Ya, Bright, being introverted is one set of proclivities. Attach it to curiosity and intelligence and a high sex drive, and what you don’t wind up with is what Whiskey seems to imply you wind up with.

    Introversion is a distinct personality trait, and is not lumped together with nerdiness.

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  105. on February 5, 2010 at 12:46 am brightstormyday

    In short, most nerds are introverts, but not vice versa…?

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  106. on February 5, 2010 at 12:59 am xsplat

    Ya, that works. What else can we come up with?

    Most high-libido men are not anti-social, regardless of if they are introverts, but most low libido men are anti-social only if they are introverts?

    Most normals are natural at communicating with normals, most high IQ men are not, but most great communicators with the normals are high IQ?

    Most engineers have less than average interest in social interaction with normals, but most engineers can interact socially with normals just fine, when they have the interest.

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  107. on February 5, 2010 at 2:38 am Jack

    This is infuriating!

    You are all a bunch of Navel-Gazers.

    I skip over the nonsense about black women and IQ vs Testosterone…because it is USELESS navel gazing.

    To talk about these subjects while Rome burns is insane.

    No wonder the feminists are winning in their goal of defeating PUA, not to mention MRA.

    Yes, you read that right: Feminists are out to stop PUA in its tracks and LR was the LEAST of your worries.

    You may not care about your actual rights, because you smugly think that, since you are not getting married, you don’t need to worry because the only rights you’re losing in Congress and via propaganda are the ones you would want to keep if you were married.

    But I just noted above that AOL with its huge traffic, has decided to link to the feminist blog LemonDrop.com, that advocates NOT dating older males.

    You need to know, if you are older than 25, that this propaganda not only can but DOES take opportunities away from you that no game can overcome. If an 18 year old has been convinced to date noone older than 22, you as a 26 year old are fucked. PERIOD. You needed to have helped find a billionaire long ago to stop churches and TV shows from suggesting that 18 year olds be that picky.

    I date 18 year olds at age 50 overseas, so don’t tell me they are too young and it doesn’t matter that US culture is doing everything possible to convince them not to date you.

    The bipartisan Women’s Caucus in Congress got IMBRA passed to stop US males from dating younger women in other countries. They actually defended the law in court by saying that “these men tend to want to date much younger women and studies indicate that this is because they want to control women”.

    Now we have a chance for some of us to try to talk some sense into the 30 something broads at LemonDrop about their advocation for cougars while hating older men.

    We can get on Twitter and urge a boycott of AOL (cancel your accounts).

    Let’s see at least something interesting and not total BS about obscure scientific elements of game theory or PUA theory that indicate that you think US males somehow have the upper hand on the dating scene just because so many women and feminists really are falling apart physically.

    You need to know that, as they fall apart physically, they get even nastier, tell more of the younger women around them not to date you (CockBlocking on a massive scale) and look to pass laws to make sure older men don’t get to make moves on younger women (professors, people in authority, bosses, men who date foreign women: the trend is not going to stop).

    This WILL effect you even if you are now overseas (American movies and TV shows are pirated overseas).

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  108. on February 5, 2010 at 2:49 am gunslingergregi

    ””””’But I just noted above that AOL with its huge traffic, has decided to link to the feminist blog LemonDrop.com, that advocates NOT dating older males.”””’

    Dude aol has been a virus for a long time that nobody should have been paying for the last 9 years. Have money?
    You can always get a chick in the us.
    Getting a good woman a diferent story.

    LikeLike


  109. on February 5, 2010 at 2:52 am xsplat

    Jack, if you are going to take the attitude to stop talking about all banalities and to get serious about the big issues, it wouldn’t be that difficult to trump your concerns with larger concerns.

    You have a point that social expectations play a part in how easy it is to date younger girls, but I think you over estimate it. It’s wayyy easier to date younger women here in asia, but it is not wayy easier for the locals. In the west a high status older man can date young girls without much fuss also. Westerners are perceived as high status here. It gets that much easier when there isn’t much opposition to the big age difference, but game is all about making the gina tingle make the desisions, rather than her social expectations.

    Biological concerns trump social concerns, so if you can convince a young girls gina that you are the man, she’ll buck social convention and the will of her parents. Admittedly it’s a lot harder to convince her you are the man when the deck is stacked against you. But on a practical level, where do you want to spend your energy – fighting social mores, or upping your ability to deal with one on one situations?

    Here is how I see it: women control the social gossip, and let em. Men control the environment. We make airplanes and drill for oil. It’s not necessary to fight women in the realm of gossip, directly. You can subvert their whole edifice of blah blah blah just by ignoring their flappy little lips, keeping full control of all your wealth, and making them horny.

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  110. on February 5, 2010 at 3:22 am Jack

    No guys – I just wrote a really long rant (that got caught in that damn “needs to be moderated” BS because of its length) about how men CAN and WILL control the Internet discussion of men’s rights once the newspapers and major media are destroyed by social media.

    Where corporate moderators don’t rule the day and delete our content (including comments) men ALWAYS win debates with feminists.

    ALWAYS.

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  111. on February 5, 2010 at 3:26 am Jack

    So, guys, start Twitter accounts, FOLLOW 1000s of libertarians and conservatives or the followers of other MRAs and PUAs, and men will easily control what is being said about relationships and dating.

    Without the major media blocking us, Pretty Lies will Perish.

    Don’t listen to the idea that we have to let women control the Internet because we supposedly control the Oil Rigs. That is defeatist and illogical.

    You just have to stop talking about IQ vs Testosterone and start talking on Twitter and other sites about IMBRA and VAWA and how young women need to date older men or die as spinsters.

    Tell the Cougars they need to be our allies against ageism or we can easily expose the weaknesses in their dating strategy for all to see.

    LikeLike


  112. on February 5, 2010 at 3:40 am gunslingergregi

    What I find in my own life is that men haven’t really done shit for me.

    Woman are always there in my times of need to give up the pussy, love me, clean up my shit without complaint and provide some warmth under the blankets no matter what the fuck I do or say. They do not fear me but love me.

    They make me breakfast in bed dinner. Buy me my favorite snacks. Whatever the fuck. They ask me if I need anything. Care about me and really all they want in return is to get fucked.

    I don’t clean I don’t wash dishes I don’t cook.

    Heck the chick I am with now in the us said I could stay as long as I want at her house and her door was always open if I come back to us.

    I suppose if I do go back I’ll have her kick out some weak bitch that wants to do her dishes so she can do mine.

    My own father after 2 weeks of me being home from iraq treated me like my company when I was in massive pain from my stomach like a piece of shit because I was pulling pussy and he was jealous because he couldn’t because of the crutch of religion.

    Woman are gonna do what woman are gonna do and when I am old there will be more than one woman feeding me and washing my ass if I am an invalid.

    And in the interim between now and death it will be woman making all the drugery of life shit that I don’t have to do so I can somewhat pleasantly pass the days till death.

    Just don’t tolerate bullshit and you will be fine with woman. Don’t be a bitch they do hate that. Don’t be a bitch. Don’t be a bitch. Fuck them at least daily and they are good to go.

    Woman get off on making life easy for a man that fucks their vagina.

    The only thing fucking shit up is the divorce laws and child support and pussy ass men still support that shit.

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  113. on February 5, 2010 at 3:51 am xsplat

    Jack

    Tell the Cougars they need to be our allies against ageism or we can easily expose the weaknesses in their dating strategy for all to see.

    Jack, have you ever tried to talk to feminists, say on feministing, for example? They don’t listen.

    You are naive if you think you can have any impact on the thought of women, when they are in groups of women. They only listen to each other when they group like that.

    And if you want to influence men, you are either preaching to the converted or to the indifferent.

    You want to sway public opinion, but there is no public – there are only splinter groups. And the splinter group you care about is not as influential as you imagine. And they are completely out of your reach – or anyones reach. They are insane.

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  114. on February 5, 2010 at 4:02 am gunslingergregi

    lol xsplat don’t be so cruel.

    Jack keep up the fight man. It will be worth it one day. It does seem to be making it to mainstream.

    LikeLike


  115. on February 5, 2010 at 4:06 am gunslingergregi

    Look at the social security winds though. The shit will all be blamed on the old so they can be gotten rid of children of the corn style.

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  116. on February 5, 2010 at 4:45 am Markku

    Markku,
    While I see your point, and it is legitimate to a great degree, it is incomplete. African Americans played just as important a role in the New World as their slavemasters. In any event, it wasn’t the History class that was at issue, but others.

    I see. And you’re definitely right. Without African American pioneers, many styles of music would hardly exist.

    LikeLike


  117. on February 5, 2010 at 5:07 am Markku

    Some people equate introversion with a lack of social skill. While there is broad overlap, the two ideas are distinct. A shy person can still be confident. He just rarely finds the mood for extraverted display in a group or with strangers – unless maybe he’s drunk.

    Introversion means less than average need for external stimuli – and nothing else. The concept has nothing to do with social skills or confidence, nothing whatsoever. Extroverts, in contrast, have stronger cravings for external stimuli. If you want to tell extroverts and introverts apart at 100% accuracy, lock them up in a box car cell for a month. Those who lose their minds quickest, are the greatest extroverts.

    While extroverts love to be engaged with things, in the social world or the world of objects, introverts tend to reflect more on what goes on around them. Introverts speak less but when they do, their sayings carry more weight.

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  118. on February 5, 2010 at 5:18 am xsplat

    Is that right, Markku? I always considered the extravert was the one who was more socially gregarious.

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  119. on February 5, 2010 at 5:28 am xsplat

    gun

    keep up the fight man. It will be worth it one day. It does seem to be making it to mainstream.

    I also harbor ambitions to be socially persuasive.

    I even suspect that I do have real world impact. Persuasive writing is a craft that takes decades of effort to hone, but even a few well written articles can have impact.

    Actually, I laud your efforts, Jack. Personally, I’d rather aim at subverting the meme you are fighting by influencing the most hip on the blogosphere, rather than by fighting the bitches directly. From what I hear about the way ideas are born and disseminated, cultural nexxus points, like this blog, attract the interesting thoughts, which are then disseminated by cultural leaders, such as Roissy. Corporations pay the cultural leaders big bucks for that reason. So if you want to influence society, you use persuasive writing in high profile venues, such that people think that writing is cool, and hip, and want to identify with it.

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  120. on February 5, 2010 at 6:25 am Markku

    Is that right, Markku?

    The one I used was Hans Eysenck’s definition.

    I always considered the extravert was the one who was more socially gregarious.

    Social gregariousness is an expression of extroversion in the social domain. It can be manifested in other domains, too. Someone who likes to organize or administer things may be just as strongly extroverted as someone who loves interacting with other people. Ditto for those who live for physical adventures and pleasures – or the endlessly curious who never tire of exploring and combining new ideas.

    Interestingly, Eysenck’s and Jung’s concepts of extroversion and introversion are compatible.

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  121. on February 5, 2010 at 6:45 am Jack

    Xsplat,

    You are a talented writer so I wish to convince you to please just take 5 minutes now and then and you WILL help defeat feminism on the net. Women are easily separated from feminism. I have Twitter accounts where thousands of women follow me. Most women are not radical feminist and most cougars CAN be convinced that promoting ageism against older males by younger females is counterproductive to the real cougar battle of convincing younger males not to be ageist against them.

    You are talking to the world champion of fighting feminists on the Internet. I go by 40 different aliases and I win almost every single time. I lost once on a site with thousands of gays and lesbians where the gay males consistently hammered me with “Men do NOT have a Constitutional right to approach women and talk to them”. I was on a business trip at Christmas time and no other MRA was helping and I just had to chuck the debate – but that was a rare instance.

    Feminists without gays and wimps to help them, always lose arguments. Always.

    On Twitter, the worst that happens is some Republican wimp unfollows me and then refuses to respond when I ask him not to be a coward and explain what his issue was. But 200 Republican men follow me for every wimp that is scared to be seen following me.

    I do all this as a top executive who barely has time to spend more than 10 minutes per day on the Internet and I try to avoid using the Internet at all on weekends.

    Now the only place where feminists win is on Wikipedia and, maybe, on FreeRepublic.com

    On Wikipedia, all your commenting can be erased, often by some teenage male who wants older pussy and thinks it will help him get that if he shows pro-feminist bias.

    On FreeRepublic.com, the crippled Jim Robinson started letting feminist Republicans be moderators and they started deleting men who started to win arguments against feminism…but I hear that enough real men remain there to make comments that are allowed.

    But everywhere where comments are not deleted, men win, and that is most places, including comments on major media websites like CBC and CNN and ABC.

    I have found that I can win arguments all alone.

    But if 2 or 3 men go to a website, they can shut down feminists easily.

    Most websites are neutral. If men complain about feminist bias, their comments are allowed and the feminists give up.

    So it is worth it to comment.

    What works is this: If anybody here suggests that others go to a particular site and stick up for men’s rights or for men dating younger women, just take a minute and go there and comment.

    That is all.

    Don’t NOT go because you might be feeling temporarily defeatist. Just do it. You will help win the argument at that site. And I will explain why that matters next…

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  122. on February 5, 2010 at 6:52 am Jack

    In the other thread, Roissy mentions how John Mayer may have gotten the phrase “Tiger Woods only mistake was getting married” from him. Comments say they doubt that. But such comments miss a major points and explain why so many PUAs talk about nothing and fail to become MRAs.

    I thought Roissy got that phrase from me but it doesn’t matter. When I Tweet something on Twitter, it immediately goes out to 6000 people and I am often retweeted which means the thought goes out to another 20000 people depending, of course, on who retweets. If you calculate that only 1% of followers actually read any given tweet, that means 260 people read every time I say something on Twitter. I tweeted about 20 times about how Tiger made a miserable mistake by getting married. Of 5000 people who saw me say something along those lines, Jon Mayer easily could have been one of them.

    It would not have mattered if Roissy gave me the idea or I gave it to him. The point is that good ideas, like good videos (like the Wedding Dance) move FAST in Social Media and we can win at this where the feminists won in the old media and their 9 or 10 top executives who were scared that women would boycott their food and hair product sponsors.

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  123. on February 5, 2010 at 7:02 am Markku

    Interestingly, Eysenck’s and Jung’s concepts of extroversion and introversion are compatible.

    I have a friend (a tall and confident guy) who is definitely introverted as a whole but whose introversion and extroversion manifest in clearly different areas. He is a computer scientist who loves logical puzzles and paradoxes, and is an avid go player in addition to his day time job as a programmer and an sysadmin. He really likes sitting alone thinking and solving problems. His style of communication is very terse and no-bullshit along with his sense of humor that reminds me a lot of Dilbert’s brutal one-liners. This guy’s extroverted side, however, is clearly in the sensory domain. He is an amateur rock musician, likes to drink hard, and used to be a heavy smoker until recently. An all-round hedonist whose other proclivities were of a type not at all unknown to the readership of this blog until he met his live-in girlfriend of two years, a pretty young blonde. In other words, my friend is a textbook ISTP.

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  124. on February 5, 2010 at 10:59 am blacksquirrel

    These sexist generalizations are absurd! Not all women are clerical robots. If you want a creative, risk-taker type of female employee, look no further than her hands. If the ring finger is longer than the index finger, hire that woman! And once you do, make sure she works in a team of mostly men b/c the other women will drag her down. This will come natural to her anyway because she will be unable to bond with either the Sex and the City acolytes or mommy brigade. I know this from experience. Again, remember to look at the hands–a bulldog face and a buzz cut doesn’t necessarily mean the woman behaves more like a guy.

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  125. on February 5, 2010 at 1:09 pm Xamuel

    Stepping back and taking a more long-term look at this, this is disastrous for society in general. Say what you will about finances and careers, babies born to girls in their twenties are healthier babies. Generations born to parents in their twenties are generations which push down the average age. The latte-sipping late-breeders enjoy a carefree lifestyle today, but in two hundred years they’ll literally be bred out of the gene pool.

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  126. on February 5, 2010 at 1:25 pm Are Women MORE Relationship-Oriented Than Men? « The Obsidian Files

    […] http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/one-key-to-marital-success-have-fewer-options/ […]

    LikeLike


  127. on February 5, 2010 at 1:54 pm Nutz

    In other words women aren’t generally marriage material these days until their looks fade and the alphas move on to greener pastures. That’s the grim truth for beta males now.

    Marriage ensured betas had exclusive sexual access, which is one of the reasons it was such a huge success down through the ages. Now we’re operating on a more capitalistic system. Without govt intervention the natural result of capitalism is a few large monopolies. In the sexual marketplace that means a handful of alphas with harems and plenty of women for no strings attached sex. Betas get left out of the market completely until the alphas stop monopolizing the women, which happens when their attractiveness fades. Then the problem is the women graduate into another social rung where it’s the older alphas who monopolize the women still. Even with betas going for the cougars (which drops off naturally on it’s own), the 50 & 60 year old alphas end up monopolizing the 30s & 40s year old women.

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  128. on February 5, 2010 at 5:43 pm Bill

    Jack if you are still reading this stream, I think you’ll like Wendy McElroy. She is often called a feminist, or a new feminist, but she is in fact reasonable and independent thinker with views that seem to align with common sense. As a “feminist” her arguments can easily be used against other feminists quite easily when necessary.
    http://www.ifeminists.com/e107_plugins/enews/enews.php

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  129. on February 9, 2010 at 2:41 am Me again

    ‘If you want marital success (I hesitate to call it happiness) then the key is to limit your options. The human rationalization hamster, punch drunk on fermented sour grapes, will then rev up and provide all the excuses you need for maintaining the illusion of marital accord. ”

    Chris Rock said that “Men are only as faithful as their options.” So does that mean that I should marry a guy who is so unappealing that no other woman would have him? A man whose options are so limited that his faithfulness to me is all but forced, due to lack of opportunity?

    I guess so. I don’t intend to be cynical, but sometimes I can’t avoid it.

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  130. on February 9, 2010 at 5:16 am Jack

    Bill – Coincidentally (or maybe not), it was Wendy McElroy who first woke me up to how serious the feminist threat is when she published her article on IMBRA exactly 4 years ago this week. She called it IMBA or something back then so just do a Google search for marriage broker and Wendy McElroy to find the article.

    She said the government should not be allowed to get between a woman and a man trying to say hello to her. I was totally shocked that such a law could pass in Congress and I woke the Hell up.

    Me Again – You can get an alpha man to marry you and stay faithful if you say in advance that you will sometimes allow 3somes not involving penetration (say with a nanny or something). Just don’t paint a picture of permanent monkhood to him. Bruce Willis might have stayed with Demi Moore if she hadn’t gotten so upset about him with the nanny.

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  131. on February 9, 2010 at 8:57 pm Sophia

    The men who post on this website are sexist and misogynistic.

    Old men who TRY to date younger women tend to be perverts or mental midgets.

    I sure as hell won’t date an old dude.

    LikeLike


  132. on February 10, 2010 at 2:44 am Jack

    Sophia,

    It would be interesting to know from where you found this forum. Please answer that.

    Also, do you disagree with Wendy McElroy at the Ifeminists.net website? Do you think the IMBRA law should force men to be background checked before being allowed to date foreign women?

    Some older men have never smoked, never drank and have not been promiscuous. They look 10 years younger than they are as a result.

    Would you date a much younger man when you are 40? If so, why the illogical hatred of men doing the opposite?

    A woman 18-22 is probably better looking than she will ever be and than others. Beauty can be prolonged with good exercise and diet…but not all can pull this off.

    Does knowing this make a man a pervert or stupid? Not at all. It makes him honest and perceptive.

    If you are 18-22 the feminists have taught you to hate and you will only burn up your good years with this hate, only to marry a beta male later in life who has a lower IQ than most of the men on this site.

    A better idea is to be positive about men and, if a great looking older man shows he wants to sleep with you and maybe settle down and have kids with you, go for it. Odds are that the older man will be faithful to you.

    Remember, guys your age will be older men in the future and they can and will dump your butt for a woman 20 years younger after they use up your youth.

    It doesn’t matter what they are saying to you now. All men are essentially the same.

    Date and marry older men if you want security. Date your own age or younger if you want to live dangerously (higher chance of being rejected for younger women if you are not a younger woman yourself).

    You won’t have much power when you are over 40 to be making any decisions other than nuclear attacks on the finances of a man your age who was dumb enough to marry you but now wants the nanny.

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  133. on February 10, 2010 at 2:50 am Jack

    BTW, I am 50 but look 37 because I never smoked and I stayed out of the sun every summer of my life. My girlfriend is 24. She gets in the way of several 18 year olds and several 20 year olds who want second and third dates…but I can’t squeeze them into my schedule because the 24 yr old lives next door.

    Plus, millions of gorgeous 18-22 women strip in clubs and do lap dances. Older men have plenty of opportunity. High IQ helps a man succeed.

    So, Sophia, how old are you and are you good looking? Because it would be hard to find the time to date you either way.

    Why the hatred? Did you take a Women’s Studies Course? Where did you find this site from by the way?

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  134. on February 10, 2010 at 2:56 am Jack

    I have not dated an American woman in years, thank God, but guys should know to check a woman’s opinion on words like perverted or creepy and her opinion on feminism very early in a conversation. You don’t want a woman who takes the word “perverted” seriously.

    Get her phone number 15-20 minutes into the conversation so you know her paranoia/interest level early enough not to waste your time going forward. Lie about your age if she is American so you are not more than 10 years older than she says she is.

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  135. on February 10, 2010 at 3:04 am Jack

    PUAs should become MRAs after they read what Sophia wrote. She advocated pure ageism.

    That is worse than racism, even for black men.

    Sophia said that a human being should be cruelly rejected for his or her age.

    Logically, Sophia is saying that older women should be cruelly rejected by men for being “old”. Logically, Sophia is saying that, if a woman starts to look old, her husband should leave her for a younger woman…after all, she herself would never date a man in his 50s – why should anyone date someone in their 50s??

    But Sophia doesn’t mean that!!! Nooooo! You see, Sophia has a double standard. Older women should date much younger men like Demi Moore and Ashton Kutscher. That is good and proper. But when Ashton is 50 and Demi dies of old age, he can only date 50 and above in Sophia’s eyes after that.

    Listen Sophia – if you would not date someone for being “ugly and old” and wish to convince others to think the same heinous way, you will be rejected sooner than you think for being “ugly and old” yourself.

    It would be better for you to combat ageism and say men should not reject women for being old – while also saying that you would, yourself, not reject someone for being old.

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  136. on February 27, 2010 at 10:45 am FuzzX

    “In defense of college-educated women

    People without college educations are, more often than not, poors. Poors are dumb. They are most often fat. They almost always smell.

    A college degree (especially one from a real college. I’m not talking community colleges like American University) is indicative of good breeding. And that is sort of the goal, isn’t it?”
    ————————————————————————

    In defense of community college educated men:

    I’m not sure why everyone thinks university educated people make more than community college grads. Up here in Canada, our trades people start at three to five times the wage that the university kids do (with no student loan). I kick my ass everyday for not having gone into the trades earlier. I’m 30 and just starting a Heavy Equipment Trade AND there is a massive shortage of trades people to boot.

    For instance: Plumber (Tradesman Apprenticeship) typically averages between $50,000 to $150,000 with the guys running their own trade business somewhere in the neighbourhood of $150 to $300,000… those buggers make a ton of money.

    HVAC: starts at around $50,000 to $70,000

    Mechanic: $50,000 to $75,000 (My mom’s BMW Mechanic is charging the low low price of $150/Hour )

    OTR Trucker: $50 to $60,000
    Owner Operator: $75 to $120,000

    Go Transit Driver: $75,000 to $90,000

    Contrast that with the $10 to $15 dollars an hour the typical entry-level grad student makes.. that is…if they can find a job.. and not have to work an ‘internship’.

    The same people that are preoccupied with having a ‘college’ education are also the ones making $12/hour in a cubicle drinking a $10 cup of starbucks coffee with a $50,000 student loan.

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