The third most frequent email request I receive from readers is advice for how to date younger women. (The second most common email request is of the type “Hey I was a beta with this girl I like. What could I have done better?”. The first is “Meet me this Thursday.”) I’ve written a few times about tactics for picking up younger women and the proper attitude to have with them, but those posts are buried in the archives, so consider this a refresher.
- Game will obliterate a 5-15 year age gap.
If your game is tight and you’re confident around a girl, you won’t normally have to deal with her objecting to the age gap. Girls simply don’t think logically like that, particularly the younger ones. But occasionally a girl will broach the subject early on, and this will happen particularly if she is not accustomed to dating older men. There are a variety of techniques for handling what I call “teaser objections”. That is, objections which are solicited not to cut off a potential relationship, but to test you for your ability to be comfortable around her, and to thus assuage her concerns being around you.
- Reframe the age gap
If a girl is interested, expect her to ask about your age. She will ask no matter how old you are. As a Jedi of the female condition, you will have answers ready for any objection. It’s best to turn it around on her so that it is you who is qualifying her. You can see examples of qualification lines in action in this post, which can also be delivered as negs. A common thread to reframing the age gap is to insinuate that the girl isn’t mature/sophisticated/worldly enough for you. You can even throw in a line about how older women seem smarter, and most of the younger women you have dated liked to talk about fluffy TV shows. Remember: Gina tingles are birthed in the defensive crouch position. *Squirt!* Always be on the offense.
Another solid technique is to anticipate her objection. Before she asks your age, set the tone by implying early on that she may not have the self-assurance to be in your company. This should be structured as an early stage qualification routine, which I wrote about here. Most girls will bite on this.
- Imply preselection by younger women
Sometimes a girl will ask “So do you usually date younger women?” Be careful, as the answer you think is a winner, is not. You will be tempted to tell her that you always date younger women. But she’s just as likely to interpret that as meaning you are an incorrigible skirt chaser of college coeds. It also sounds try-hard. On the other hand, you certainly don’t want to say she’s your first younger woman. That would raise a red flag as well. Your best answer, as is typical in matters of seduction, should be ambiguous and evasive.
“I’ve dated women of many different ages, younger and older. I don’t limit myself based on an arbitrary number. The connection is what’s most important to me.”
She will be left defenseless to the above line.
Older men (where we define “older” as +10 years) will have to be aware that their pool of available younger prospects will be smaller. One, there are fewer single women after a certain age. (Though this is changing. Thank you feminism!) Two, there will be a percentage of women for whom dating older men is impossible to conceive. However, a countervailing force that works in favor of older men is the fact that there is a significant minority of women who *actively* seek to date older men.
The numbers generally break down like this:
40% of young women won’t date older men.
40% of young women *prefer* dating older men.
20% of young women are neutral about dating older men.
As an older man, you will learn to quickly ascertain which of the younger women you approach are most amenable to dating you. One way to look at it is that the older man has an extra filter to apply to his dealings with women that younger men, for the most part, don’t have to worry about.
It is more important than ever that the older man refrain from showing even a hint of neediness or insecurity about the age gap. Younger women will be on extra high alert for signs of clinginess from older men, because after a certain age women will expect you to have your alpha shit together. Younger men can’t afford neediness either, but they have a little more wiggle room than older men.
Whatever you do, don’t make a big deal out of the age gap. Act as if it’s perfectly normal that you and her find each other attractive. Doubt is not only the mind killer; it’s also the wet pussy killer.
- Feminine girls tend to be into older men; masculine girls tend to prefer younger men
I’ll toss this one to the evo psychs. It’s true; the pretty, soft, feminine women like dating older men, while the skanky, hard-bodied, manjawed sluts and cougars-in-training get their rocks off bed hopping with younger men. There is a certain beautiful symmetry to this emergent natural order — the older men get the exquisite pleasure of sex and love with younger women while the younger men cut their teeth on older women willing to show them the ropes.
- Broken families are the older seducer’s best friend
The stereotype is true: Girls from broken families love dating older men. Maybe it’s separation anxiety, a latent daddy complex, or a strong desire for a reliable provider instead of a cad. Whatever it is, the daughters of divorce are easier pickings for the older man. If you hear a girl say she hasn’t seen her father in twenty years since mommy kicked him out, you are permitted to do a fist pump when she’s not looking. Again, thank you feminism!
Oh, and this is also true for women raised by much older fathers.
- Dress young
A lot of raging feminists will complain “Men should learn to act and dress their age!” Nevermind what older, bitter, expired women say. When you dress young, you appeal to younger women. But keep two caveats in mind.
One, be in shape. Youthful clothing only fits properly on slim bodies. I like the Hank Moody look — a pared down artsy style of tight black tee under a fitted hipster jacket, coupled with distressed dark jeans and either super swank shoes or scenester sneakers. I top it off with some mild peacocking, like a ring, leather bracelet, sunglasses, and fedora. But a fat guy would look ridiculous in a similar get-up.
Two, women in their late 20s and 30s will appreciate an older man in a sharp suit. If you are at a charity event where a lot of professional women who normally don’t frequent clubs will be in attendance, you will get more attention attired in a suit and projecting an air of authority and sophistication. As with all things fashion, context is king.
Note that youthful clothing is not necessarily synonymous with “trendy fads”. You can dress youthfully without following the latest youth trends. Try to hit the sweet spot where you look young but you don’t look overtly fashion-forward.
- Drop the bumpngrind dance club scene
Unless you are an incredible dancer, don’t bother bump and grinding out there on the dance floor with the rest of the drunk rabble rousers. You’ll feel stupid, and you’ll look stupid too. This doesn’t mean your dancing career is over. Older men can shine in structured dance scenes like salsa or tango. In fact, I have witnessed many an older man swoop younger women using tango game alone.
- Avoid age-restrictive scenes
Don’t take a younger woman out on dates to venues or events that have mostly younger men *or* older men in attendance. At the predominantly young man event, you will stick out like a sore thumb. This will make her self-conscious. At the predominantly older man event, she will stick out like a sore thumb, also making her self-conscious. The last thing you want to do is tempt a younger woman to believe you and her are culturally incompatible. So focus on taking her to mixed-age scenes that you both enjoy. Or skipping the scenes altogether and heading straight for the bedroom.
- Get up to speed on the latest in music and art
No brainer. Younger women want an emotional connection with you just as much as older women do. The easiest way to connect is through shared hobbies and interests. If she spits out the name of a band she loves, it helps if you know what she’s talking about.
- Baldness is bad
50% of men by age 50 have noticeable balding. Either shave it all off, or, if it hasn’t progressed too far, do what a lot of women do when their appearance suffers a hit and “get a little work done”. The worst thing is the monk’s ring. Avoid at all costs.
- Lie
If you know up front that the girl is going to be a short term fling, and she is more than 10-15 years younger than you, it’s sometimes easier to take the path of least resistance and lie. She’ll thank you later after the earth-shattering orgasm. A sneaky way to lie by omission instead of commission is to play the guessing game with her:
GIRL: How old are you?
YOU: Guess.
GIRL: 29?
YOU: Wow, you’re good at this! [Note that you didn’t specify if she guessed correctly.]
Another true stereotype: Foreign girls love dating older men. Bonus: They aren’t fat!
- Target single moms
In some parts of the country you will find a lot of young single moms. If you know you have no interest in a long term arrangement, you can do very well targeting single moms under the age of 30, because single moms are more desperate to be loved by high value men. Let’s face it, most alpha males will not commit to a single mom, or fall in love with them. Why take on another man’s responsibility, either directly or indirectly? And kids are romance killers, snuffing out spontaneity like a load of wet diapers air-dropped on a brush fire. Plus, there’s that whole distended vagina thing. A buddy of mine once remarked that banging a chick who had had three kids was like riding the log flume wearing a suit made out of eels. However, if you want to experience the thrill of no-strings-attached sex with a much younger woman, you have really good odds with single moms.
- Grace under pressure
Older men have it in spades. Or are supposed to. Don’t let anything rattle you. Explosions of testosterone-y hurt and insecurity are the domain of younger men.
- Emphasize a powerful emotional connection
Older men are also supposed to be less awestruck by women’s beauty. One way to communicate this pleasant indifference to her youthful beauty is to discuss her finer qualities, like her surprising intelligence for someone with so little real world experience. Act as if her body is almost invisible to you. Until you get to the bedroom.
- Be the wise man
Older men are wise men. What was the point of all those years if you haven’t converted them to wisdom? Younger women want to experience your wisdom, but there is a wrong way and a right way to demonstrate your superiority over her. Don’t make a show of being a wise person. Don’t finger wag like a supercilious father. Instead, allow your wisdom to percolate naturally, showing itself only when the moment calls for it. Don’t draw attention to it. She will appreciate it even if she doesn’t say so.
Interesting post.
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Baldness is bad
Brothers excluded.
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“Hipster jacket” = brown cord jacket? (in practically every single pic ever… I was like man he must really love that jacket)
[editor: i don’t have a brown cord jacket. but i like the idea.]
I don’t think “omission instead of comission” is lying though…not always. Lalalaa 😉 Great way to describe it though, newest catchphrase addition
The defenseless line about the connection being more important than a number is excellente too… Forgot that taking the discussion to a “higher level” (more ideological one) is the best way to shut down or defend against a lot of stuff
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“Reframe the age gap”
i think this is exactly wrong. The better approach, i think, is to reframe on the grounds that ‘you normally dont date younger girls because they are just not mature enough, worldly, cultured, whatever, but you are different- you are just different that all those immature girls your age.’
i really think this is an example where the ‘posi’ is more effective than the neg.
i dont know…maybe i am wrong. but i think, by saying something like that, you are negging her entire generation and by extension her and simultaneously extending a privileged invitation to join the cultured elite. she will join it because she wants the validation of her already established belief that she is soooo much more worldly than all those other immature sluts.
what do you think roissy?
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I’d liken it to throwing a hotdog down a hallway, myself.
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“Plus, there’s that whole distended vagina thing. A buddy of mine once remarked that banging a chick who had had three kids was like riding the log flume wearing a suit made out of eels. ”
Unfortunately, this is true. After pushing a baby out things are never quite the same. Even so, I’d take the kids over some aging playboy.
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I’m 48, and dated a model/grad student of 27. Gorgeous and smart. This was far less difficult than I would have expected. Honestly, I lucked in to it, but learned a few very valuable lessons.
Older guys–you must be realistic about what it is you offer, and do not offer. Even if you are in great shape (I am) you can’t expect to look better than a guy of 27. And it’s not what they want from you.
If a younger woman is interested in you, it’s because you “get her.” That is, you see the intellect and old soul in her that a young man of her age could not possibly fathom. You listen, have good taste and can show her things. That worldliness is exactly what she is looking for. And you cannot overestimate the power of a suit. But a nice one–Zenga, for instance.
To borrow our intrepid blogger’s phrase, they “shit test” a lot less. Because if they do you are an eyelash from dropping them.
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Great points Roissy.
As well I’ve found that the more serious minded and smart hot young girls are much easier to attract as an older guy, than the more frivolous party, party, party types. That’s not to say she can’t be and you can’t help her be more girly and giggly. Just that her having a more serious side really helps.
And yeah, some form of daddy absence definitely tends to make girls more attracted to older guys as well.
I’ve shaved my head for some time now and I think in older guys it tends to be a real plus. Seems to automatically make guys look tougher, more dominant. I almost think it’s better in an older guy (40+) than a full, not at all thinning head of hair. I’m sure it’s better than anything else, such as any bald patch at all, significantly receding hairline, or thinness.
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Laura–
Kegels really work.
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I hate the May-December name for a big age gap.
Instead, May-September is more like it. Or possibly May-October.
December is Hugh Hefner.
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closely crop or shave your thinning/receding hair, get in shape, have a natural tan from being outdoors at least 30 mins a day, buy clothes that fit and flatter you and are in style. Simple steps that anyone can do, yet it’s amazing how many beta shlubs don’t.
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A buddy of mine once remarked that banging a chick who had had three kids was like riding the log flume wearing a suit made out of eels.
Vaginal Weights (otherwise known as Ben Wa or Geisha balls) are your friend. The absolute tightest woman I ever hooked up with had five kids, and used vaginal weights daily.
I think Websters Dictionary defines “a delicate conversation” as the attempt to convince your GF that she needs to start using Ben Wa balls.
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I think Roissy is right about the fact that older men should show grace under pressure. The one reason I tend to prefer the company of older men to younger men is that they often seem cooler and more laid back. Younger men can almost seem too hyper sometimes. Although at my age even men younger than me are still not that young anymore.
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Staying in shape is huge for an older gent’.
I have friends in their 40s still killing it. They’re all on HGH and low-does Test. They have good physiques without looking like muscle heads.
The obesity epidemic has hit younger men. Many mid-20s guys are fat, skinny-fat, or lack any musculature at all.
Younger guys are disqualifying themselves from the game by become formless.
An older friend recently said, “No one told me this was a war of attrition. I just need to stay in shape while all of the other guys fall off the grid.”
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Thank you melanin for allowing me to look 10 years younger!
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1. For women, age is the first criterion to go.
2. The best girls and the worst girls want to date older men. The best genuinely want maturity and seek it out, the worst have some kind of issue or are the type to blindly follow their tingle.
3. You to date 8+ women as young as 25 well into your 40s if you have game.
4. You can date 6s even under 25 well into your 40s if you have game.
5. No matter your level of game, it will be tough to get 8+ women under 25 in your 40s without also having very high value in at least one of the following: looks, fame, money. It’s not impossible, but it’s very unlikely.
6. In order to have a successful marriage to a woman 10+ years younger:
a. the man must be exceptionally mature and self aware (excludes most commenters here);
b. the woman must be exceptionally mature and self aware;
c. the man must have a youthful energy and sense of fun;
d. he man can’t have become too set in his ways; and
e. the man has to have game.
7. Anything up to a 10 year gap makes basically no difference whatsoever for a marriage.
8. If all you want is something short term, the age gap doesn’t really matter: given the provisos above, you can easily have flings with women 20 years or even more younger than you.
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“If you hear a girl say she hasn’t seen her father in twenty years since mommy kicked him out, you are permitted to do a fist pump when she’s not looking.”
Yessss!
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Ok. I have some experience here, not huge age-gap experience, but I’m 34 and have yet to bang a chick over 24. You really just have to show them you are a man. 23 year old guys in general are a bunch of feminized,over-medicated, coddled, video-game-playing, pot smoking, pussies.
No girl wants this. Lift weights, stay thin, dress hip, walk/sit with posture, and call (not text, or FB) them. If you do this age will NEVER be an issue and her friends will be asking if you have any single older friends.
Its almost too easy.
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Roissy’s two original posts on this topic are here:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/top-two-rules-for-dating-younger-women/
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/further-thoughts-on-dating-younger-women/
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I’m not sure I agree with the advice to shave head at first signs of noticeable baldness. When I see guys do that, I think its pretty knee-jerk defensiveness and lack of confidence. While I agree that you don’t want to get to the point of the monk ring or horse-shoe look, I think early-stages receding hairline for a man in his 30s are consistent with high status. It seems like receding hairlines are over-represented in young professional men (doctors, lawyers, professors, artists). I think my wife has a crush on our kids’ doctor because he’s a doctor, speaks confidentially with a deep voice, and has a handsome face. But I think his receding hairline and glasses are also consistent with the aura of maturity, intelligence, and confidence. This might not work for working class guys, I don’t know.
Those white guys that shave their head to their scalp strike me as trying way too hard to disguise the obvious fact that they have receding hair. As a man with receding hair, I think i’m leaning towards the close crop, that makes no attempt to hide the hairline, but not the shaved, skin-head look.
Thoughts? (particularly from the ladies?)
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@ Hair Club for Alphas
If your hair is otherwise thick without a halo, just merely receding at the temples, then yes a mature hairline with a slightly longer style on top is ok if you have a lean or rugged face. Think Timothy Olyphant. If your are hair is thin all over or you have a noticeable patch of skin on your crown, then shave or #1 or #2 clip/crop it
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These girls are damaged goods. After a lifetime nailing Derek Jeter and Tiger Woods, no man will measure up:
http://nymag.com/news/features/65238/index6.html
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As an old guy (recently mistaken for being 41-42), all that was great and dead on except for this snippet. I’m not sure I got what the intended meaning was.
Where I live, it’s very working class (lower-middle). Girls get married and start popping out babies during or pretty much right after high school — if they bother to get married and/or graduate high school.
If you don’t go down into the low-mid twenties you’re almost certainly looking at women with mucho baggage (kids, exs, “being hurt so many times”, letting themselves go, etc.). The ones who aren’t thus disqualified generally qualify as being the dregs. In my mind you almost can’t go too low until running up against the age 21 limit. In other words, we simply don’t have a population of educated career women in their upper twenties or thirties around here, so the overall prospects are quite limited.
Lots of guys look much better as men than as proto-men (<35).
When you look in the dictionary under "man", the picture there is likely to be a guy of about 45. Maybe 40-55 IRL. Women/girls often say they want "a real man", which I understand is partly emotional/behavioral/socioeconomic/etc, but it's not outside of the realm of possibility that just being 40+ alone doesn't register something special to them at the unconscious level. I know I've noticed this.
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I’m 42 and pull chicks like a mother fucker! Natural game. Never knew I had it until I read this blog.
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I agree that shaving your hair at the first sign of baldness might be a little drastic. Completely bald is a hard look for most white men to pull off. I would try a close crop first.
My son’s friend’s father is in his late 30’s and in good shape. In my opinion he easily looks as attractive or more so than most men I see in their mid-late twenties. He might be an exception, but some men do manage to be really good looking well into middle age. I also know a very good looking 47 year old. I don’t think it’s a good idea to bulk up too much in your twenties because lean muscled men look better as they get older.
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This is possibly none of SDaedalus’s business but she is intrigued to see that although baldness was very comprehensively dealt with in the context of May-December game, no reference was made to gray hair?
Is hair dye compatible with the Alpha male image? Where the hair is only slightly graying at the sideburns & around the edge of the neck, a light application of eyebrow mascara in the appropriate colour (SD recommends MAC) can perhaps be more effective than an all-over dye, also it allows the natural hair colour to be retained as far as possible. Not necessarily suitable for a very rainy or humid climate though, at least if combined with light colored shirts.
Also, is it possible to combine hair dyeing and game (hairdresser/Samson & Delilah game)? It takes a very strong alpha to run game whilst his locks cool gently in silver foil wrappers, but those for whom Game is an end rather than a means might welcome the challenge.
Would love to hear your views.
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Hair Club for Alphas— I guess it depends on the guy but I’ve seen very few bald guys I didn’t find attractive. Keep in mind though that I’m not in my twenties…those girls might be a little pickier about that. Hope this helps a little.
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White woman, are you talking about bald white guys? And when you say bald, do you mean guys that shave their entire head to the scalp, or guys that close crop it, or guys that have the horse-shoe/monk’s ring look?
Which do you prefer?
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Martian, I stand corrected/clarified–Of course, many mid-forties men look better than some pud who sits in front of a video game console all day. And I have heard many of my female comteporaries say–or hiss–that it is so unfair that men look better as they get older. (Is not!)
A fairer comparison is two guys who work out consistently–late forties vs. mid-twenties. The guy in his twenties is stronger, all things equal. But the older guy has many other advantages, usually economic, for starters.
The larger point is this–a woman going for an older guy has a reason, and you should keep that in mind. They want worldly and established, and if you add very good shape to that, you’re always on the radar of a younger woman.
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My last boyfriend was… oh, 18 years older than me.
And if he had done about half of what was suggested in this post, I never would have dated him.
“I’ve dated women of many different ages, younger and older. I don’t limit myself based on an arbitrary number. The connection is what’s most important to me.”
I tend to go for older men (though usually within a ten year gap, I admit), and whenever anyone has used this on me (it has happened a lot), I lose interest in them.
It’s a line, and it’s obvious. Someone is attempting to game me and they’re not doing a good job of it. Not only will I have a defense for this line, I’ll go after them for using such canned material and sounding like a puss. This isn’t happy-time spirital-bonding hour, I don’t want to know if our auras collide in a shower of rainbow sparkles and marshmellow unicorns.
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Laura
” I don’t think it’s a good idea to bulk up too much in your twenties because lean muscled men look better as they get older”.
It’s this reason i clipped and pinned an article i came across in Outside Magazine on my fridge. It basically states that fit does’nt mean huge.
Chest: Do push-ups on a stability ball, feet on floor. If you can bang out 3 sets of 20, you’ve got all the strength you need- and reduce the risk of man boobs.
Arms: Use both arms, curl half your body weight with a barbell once.
Abs:Get in a push-up-like position- back straight, feet and elbows on the floor- and hold it as long as you can. Aim for three reps, 30 second each.
Forearms: If your hands can’t hold on to a ledge, it does’nt matter how strong the rest of your body is. Grab a 45lb weight plate and hold it at your side for 25 seconds, using just your fingers.
Shoulders/Upper Back: Your back is all-around strong when you can do three sets of five pull ups, with 10% of your body weight strap to your waist.
Ankles/Calves: Stand on one leg, with the other foot held against your knee, then extend up onto your toes. Practice until you can stay upright for 50 seconds on each foot.
Quads: Check them with a 2 legged broad jump. You should be able to clear at least 120% of your height. If you fall short, add more squats to your work out.
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Poetry…..ya, whatever!! LOL
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sdaedalus,
Replacing gray hair with your original natural color (and being careful to leave some gray in so it looks natural) can make a man look a lot younger.
This is to be done by buying a $7.99 box of “Just for Men” hair dye at the supermarket and shampooing or combing it in. Silver foil wrappers are ridiculous.
I’m 48 but in reasonable shape with a youthful face and energy. When I take the gray out I go from looking like 50 to looking like 40. This helps me professionally but I also get more attention from random women (they smile at me rather than acting like I’m invisible).
If I were trying to pick up girls I would not act embarrassed about this — in fact it would come in handy as a neg for the many women who fiddle with their hair color. “I could do a better dye job than that — in fact, I already have” is a heavy-duty neg, though. A lighter one might be “That color works pretty well for you, good choice” (if she was trying to make it look natural) or “I wonder what your natural color is, with your face it’s hard to guess” (if it is obviously dyed).
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Poetry of Flesh, Ha! A lot of game stuff is designed to go after the lowest common denominator chicks (which is why it works so often, I guess). Reminds of Neil Strauss in The Game pulling hot chicks with an aggressively corny line about how “having a great attitude” is what’s really important, not looks.
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Some additional points about hair:
Dyeing works best if you have a full head of hair, thinning or bald spots blocks the youthifying effect.
Beards or goatees are effective if neatly trimmed. When I had a full beard, letting it get long reduced the attention I got from most women (but the cute Amish girls at the local farmer’s market became much friendlier!).
If you try my line “that color works pretty well for you, good choice” and she says “that’s my natural shade!” you’re still OK, just shrug it off without apologizing — “yes, it’s a nice one.” (Either you’re saying you don’t believe her or you’re saying you just meant staying natural was also a choice, she won’t know which.)
The other advantage of the line “I wonder what your natural color is, with your face it’s hard to guess” is that she cannot help thinking about where she still has her natural color (necessary to include the part about guessing from her face so she won’t think you were trying the old carpet-drapes line, but there was no need to because she’ll still make the connection).
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Sorry to be a pain, but, Chateau/Roissy, your grammar is a tad off at times using her or him within a compound subject, e.g.,
“The last thing you want to do is tempt a younger woman to believe you and her are culturally incompatible.”
It should be: . . .believe that you and she are . . .
Sorry, I like your writing, and this type of mistake jars me when coming from a clearly intelligent writer.
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Awesome post. As a guy in his late 30s, I have no trouble attracting and banging women in college or in their early/mid 20s. It’s no surprise that women my own age or in their early 30s are harder to fuck. Their feminity and flirtatiousness has been fucked out of them by repeated pump n’ dumps. As Roissy correctly points out, they continue to give it up though…mostly with younger men. Probably in a self-deluded attempt to relive their 20s. A downward spiral indeed.
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As probably the only 40 yr old Man here who has banged a 28 yr old within 72 hours…I can attest Roissy’s points are on.
Only book I know of Dedicated to this subject
http://www.amazon.com/How-Date-Young-Women-over/dp/0962067156
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“And if he had done about half of what was suggested in this post, I never would have dated him.”
They won’t stop b/c they can’t stop
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Adding on to the admonition to “dress young”:
An older man can easily distinguish himself from younger competition by wearing clothes that are contemporary but more importantly, well-tailored and sophisticated-looking. Proper fit and drape are crucial. Young women are used to male peers wearing shapeless, baggy, oversized clothing whose style peak is Old Navy or Kohl’s. A well-tailored, well-groomed older man who is still in shape will immediately stand out.
In general, it’s better to err on the side of classic and conservative than to go too trendy and look like you’re trying too hard to be the young, hip older guy. (I recommend staying away from the current rock-influenced trend of button-down shirts with swirly patterns across the shoulder blades or down the chest on one side.) You don’t want to look like your clothes are wearing you, and you don’t want to wear anything that Jon Gosselin would wear (Ed Hardy will only make you look douchey, not youthful). Avoid wearing a button-down shirt with the top button unbuttoned over a white crew-neck T-shirt at all costs. Avoid sweaters with more than two colors. A blazer in more casual/informal settings is often a winner, especially if paired with a nice pair of shoes (not your well-worn, plain black work loafers). A more youthful twist would be to wear Converse sneakers, depending on context and the man in question.
If you’re trying to upgrade your wardrobe and are having trouble, don’t be afraid to ask a saleslady at Macy’s or another higher-end store for help. She will be thrilled to help you. If you throw in a little game, she’ll comb the entire store to get you what you want.
Also: a good haircut can work wonders. If you’ve had the same side-part haircut since 2nd grade, it’s worth looking into a new style.
Above all, FIT is king. Poor fit can undo all the good of an otherwise hip wardrobe.
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Also, just be aware that large age gaps produce some issues…mostly logistical that will fuck up otherwise tight game
-Women under 25 are incapable of long term planning….so dont get pissed off when she bails last minute, forgets a date or misses that non-refundable flight.
That behaviour would be in-excusable at 28; subject to pre-dumping at 32 and a slap at 35. But at 25, be firm and re-book (with downgrade..dinner becomes drinks, drinks to coffee) and un-fazed.
-Women under 25-30 are very fashion, career, family, religion, political concious. They have made some choices already and a small joke on these issues can kibosh a night of banging v, an under 25 girl saying “reallyy?…..your right”
-Women under 25, 25-30, 30-35 have very different style issues.
ie, Young ones like that messed up hair look on guys; shirt-tails out … whereas at 25-30 they want to show you off to posse-friends as more succesfull / sophisticated; and at 30-35 fully professional rattling off 401k tips or vacation spots. As a 40 yrs old you can crash & burn FATS not knowing what their issues are.
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Roissy,
Almost hate to do this, but here’s a slow one over the fat part of the plate for you:
http://www.economist.com/world/united-states/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15867956
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I would think you’d need to be careful with single mothers. They could decide to get “accidentally” pregnant on purpose to pull in some child support from a guy who could actually pay it.
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“Doubt is the wet pussy killer”.
Taken alone, there is great truth, bordering on profundity, in that line.
One of the most magnetic qualities a guy can have is an aura of implicit certainty, deeply rooted. This is the quality that makes people look up to them, crave their opinion, and respect them: they “get” how shit works, they always know what to do. Tyler Durden and the RSD guys call it “having a powerful reality”, and it’s true.
Milquetoasty types tend to waver and flutter in the breeze, overly concerned with being wrong or negatively judged. They’re easy to push around and hard to respect.
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“Feminine girls tend to be into older men; masculine girls tend to prefer younger men”
all this time i’ve never consciously thought about it like that, but you know, it’s absolutely true.
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Simply put if your an older guy (I’ll be there soon enough) if you’re not clingy, out of shape, have some confidence in yourself you will never have problems with younger women, I do have to say as a 37 year old guy conversations with sub 26 year old women can be a chore long term.
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So I’m interning and this young attorney and me have been flirting. She went straight through undergrad to law school and I didn’t, and she’s probably about 6 years younger than me. When she asks my age should I (1) pretend like it’s no big deal or (2) use one of these negging techniques? A six year difference isn’t really huge, but it is something especially when she probably thinks I’m her age or a year younger.
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What’s all this nonsense about hair?
Just shave it all off, that useless rubbish.
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@Jack “he’s probably about 6 years younger than me. When she asks my age should I…”
I haven’t dated a girl who wasn’t at least 6 years younger than me … in at least 10 years. None of ’em ever asked or cared, mostly because I don’t look old. I think Roissy’s talking about 10-20 year differences here: 6 years falls into the category of normal age differences.
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Speaking from experience, age works a lot better if you have money. Lets face it, how many 20 somethings have their shit together enough to provide a modicum of stability? Women who are interested in having children will quickly look past the peacocks and pseudo-rock star types because they quite often have trouble covering the rent. The problem is that using money to attract women is like using chum to fish. You attract a lot of sharks.
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Don’t say ‘I Don’t Do Facebook.’
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Wow Roissy!
I did not know you were a follower of R Don Steele. A lot of what you write, he covers.
Were you on his restricted list? Do you have his book or any of his materials? I thought you were a follower of Mystery.
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How do you take it even lower?
E.g. if you can pull 22 year olds, what does it take to get someone right at the age of consent?
In many states, the age of consent is 16. What does it take to game 16 or 17 year olds? Has anyone done this?
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It takes more than kegels to keep it tight. You have to keep a certain level of mobility and fitness overall because the pelvic floor muscles aren’t the only ones involved.
I keep the Python in shape with belly dancing and squats.
Drinking plenty of water and getting lots of good fats, vitamins A, D, and K, zinc, etc. are crucial in maintaining skin elasticity and resilience, which includes all your flesh.
Off topic, but important. I got some bad news today about how “marriage” law has changed here. In the past, cohabitants had the same legal rights as wives in matters concerning kids and death and such, but with property, they had to prove that it basically belonged to them in every way but name, to have any legal rights to it.
Now, cohabitants are getting half of anything the other owns, when they break up. I don’t know if Israeli guys are going to fight it since marriage here is religious domain, and it’s happening because the Jewish orthodoxy views a union between two Jews as a marriage, even if it wasn’t.
I will try to find out from my BB what happened, and why they’re now giving conhabitants half. I’m betting some high official’s secular living daughter set that precedent.
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Thursday said:
With failure rates as high as they are for ordinary marriages, how exactly can you, in any sort of reasonable way, know that?
Even if you had personally observed three 10+ year gap marriages, and all went down in flames…. that would have a 1 in 14 chance of occurring if the 10+ year gap marriages divorce rates were IDENTICAL to the claimed 41% divorce rate for first-time marriages in America. Mind you, many states REFUSE TO REPORT THEIR DATA. That includes California. So it’s not like I actually believe the 41%. But let’s say I do.
0.41 x 0.41 x 0.41 = .069
Unlikely yes, but very, very possible. Of course, I don’t actually believe that you have observed three separate +10 year age gap marriages go down in flames. Maybe one.
Oh, and thanks people, for the comments on how to spot dangerously bad and dangerously crazy women. The Amanda Knox’s are out there.
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“I think Websters Dictionary defines “a delicate conversation” as the attempt to convince your GF that she needs to start using Ben Wa balls.”
Literal LOL!
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Nicole,
Why is that bad news for you? Usually it’s the woman who benefits from laws like this. Of course, if you are taking an objective view that whether or not it is good for you personally in the short term, it is bad for the society and therefore you oppose it, I applaud you; but I suspect that is not the case because your phrasing “I got some bad news” suggests a personal impact.
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Never liked peacocking much; its easy to interpret that as trying too hard. Especially when dudes wear weird hats other than baseball caps. I would really advise against it if any single guy is thinking about buying some sort of douchey paper boy/hipster hat or whatever.
I’m 22 and dating someone 12 years my senior and some of what you mentioned is what i find attractive in him (especially wisdom and grace). The whole having an established career/income thing is attractive too.
The one thing i disagree with is lying about your age. its likely that she will find out your real age and just disrespect you for lying about something that unimportant. It comes off as beta to me. I wonder what is the best way to counter if a girl caught you lying about your age.
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salt and pepper hair is great. balding not so much.
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Polymath, it’s bad for me and for society. It means that it’s yet another societal problem that independent thinkers (my daughter’s future prospects) are going to react to by refusing to cohabitate.
It was bad enough that legal marriage became a joke. Now cohabitation bears the same risks. She’s going to be living with me until she has children.
…not that I mind. I like the idea of family staying together. It’s just that a woman who is decent is going to have many more good faith hoops through which to jump in order to prove herself.
I want to have grandkids someday…not badly enough to tell my daughter it’s okay for her to attach herself to a punk, but enough that this situation is disturbing.
The other problematic part of this is that a woman who states that she never wants to marry unless it is necessary for them to be together, is perceived to be low quality. People think she’s saying that she’s a slut who doesn’t think she’s worthy of a long term commitment.
So I’m not sure whether or not to tell her to be honest or to hide that opinion or lie about it until she’s absolutely sure of a guy’s intentions.
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@Nicole:that independent thinkers (my daughter’s future prospects) are going to react to by refusing to cohabitate.
This has already happened in Australia. The result is that men who have any sort of wealth will refuse to cohabit whilst the women will be desperately trying to prove that they do.
The man needs to be ruthless – no clothes left at his place, no toothbrush and so on. I’ve heard that guys will even by a place for their girlfriend. She lives there as a ‘tenant’ but is not cohabiting with him.
On the other hand the really ruthless ho, will keep a diary of every night they’ve spent together, events they have attended, where they’ve been on holiday together, friends they’ve had diner with…everything, to prove that they really do co-habit, even if she has her own place.
It’s a complete disaster for male/female relationships.
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Take lots of pictures. Use your voice recorder on her most private, damaging confessions. Have all that in place before you even let her suck your cock.
And if the time comes … I should stop here.
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Apparently, I am “the only woman in the world” who prefers the look of younger guys to older guys.
Whatever.
Here’s a tip: When she asks your age, tell her your age…in hex. Or binary! Fun!!
Of course, when she totally pwns you by knowing hex, accept it gracefully.
🙂
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My favorite topic Renegade. This issue is also the #1 reason by far why I permanently left the USA in 2003 and never looked back (except for a few business trips). I can do very well with American women 25 years or more younger than I am, but there are simply too many 18 year old American 10s who have clearly been socialized by their family and friends to specifically reject older men.
In other words, where women are naturally attracted to older men, American society (cockblockers in the family and friendship circle of the woman) is set largely against you.
They won’t cock-block you with a 7 but they will get furious if you try to get a 10 they feel responsible for.
I left the USA because of the cock-blocking, even though I was winning some key battles on that front (I slept with a 19 year old in a mountain hut in the Rockies for a month knowing her Republican evangelist daddy wanted to come shoot me in cold blood while I slept).
I just didn’t want to feel I was in a war zone. I knew I was only going to be getting older.
Ironically, Democrat women raised by single feminist are the *most* likely to want a man 20+ years older – because they are seeing “the other side of the coin” that their mother’s bad marriage denied them.
The worst American woman I’ve dated was a Republican Evangelical 22 when I was 42. She couldn’t get enough of making out with me through the 4th date. But that was when she introduced me to her father who got a friend at my bank to review my account and exact date of birth (the only time in my life I was ever seriously checked for my real age). He then turned her into an evil shrew.
It is too bad that the supposed ideal traditionalist partner in America on paper – a young Republican woman wanting to raise a family and from an intact family herself – is much less likely to date older men than a young Liberal woman, despite the fact that the best men *want* that to be the case. Ultimately, this means the leaders of the American evangelical churches and GOP have been wimps. Hugh Hefner, on the other hand, has paradoxically shown Democrat males to be the real alphas (ultimately).
I left the USA because what I just said makes no sense but it is true on the ground and that’s fucked up. Western Europe is fucked up as well but they are classier about the cock-blocking (less obvious).
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Check out this chick’s website:
http://singlegirlblogging.wordpress.com/
All I can say is, what a whore, and Fred is awesome. Got this little feminazi bitch wrapped around his finger, and she’s complaining about it while she’s putting out.
lol.
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If Israel and Australia have both just made cohabitation something feminists can rob a man for, why isn’t anyone announcing this on Twitter and other social media besides just the increasingly outdated blogosphere?
I agree that balding is not so much an issue for many guys while going gray at the temples is a huge issue for them. In both cases, cropping the hair to no longer than half an inch to an inch is required. Only guys under 35 can get away with hair longer than that and in most of Eastern Europe, all adult males keep their hair really, really short like that.
I admit to being seriously concerned that hair dye causes cancer but I also know that – while foreign women 22+ are OK with men having closely cropped silver hair – the foreign women 18-21 really don’t flirt with a man so much unless the gray is not so obvious.
So I quickly dye the hair about 8 times per year for a total of 4 hours with that toxic goop on my head. I get dizzy afterward even though I have selected the safest brand I know.
It simply has to be done to score 18 and 19 year olds as dates. I wish it weren’t the case.
Does anyone know of the safest permanent hair dyes possible that work? Henna doesn’t stick. So it comes down to which permanent color brand utilizes the least amount of harmful ingredients while providing enough of the effective one to get the job done (color lasts more than one month with plenty of washing).
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Gyms are relatively empty most places on Earth – This means a 40+ guy knows he can clean up if he uses them regularly. Most guys in their teens and twenties are skinny or never got into shape in the first place, unlike women their age who are naturally given the best bodies imaginable between age 16 and 22.
Xontrarian: Yes, 16 is the age of consent most places on Earth and the other guy above who made that stupid comment about a supposed 21 year old limit: what the heck were you writing? But Caucasian 16 and 17 year olds are rarely mature enough, even in Russia, for a relationship with an older man. Meanwhile, American men need to stop further raising of the age of consent in various US states. If an American state ever makes 18 illegal, I can honestly say I wouldn’t care if I heard the next day that its entire legislature was lined up the next day and shot like rabid dogs.
Keep in mind that Delaware has made it illegal to turn from age 29 to 30 with a 17 year old in your bed. It is perfectly legal to have sex with a 17 year old if you are 29 but you become a felon to do so at 30.
Florida is even worse: A 23 year old can have sex with a 17 year old but becomes a felon on his or her 24th birthday.
And this is not because the old busybody feminists and evangelists really care about the welfare of the 17 year old or that she is really too young for sex (obviously they don’t mind a teen thumping away with a 23 year old boyfriend) – they are furious that they are being ignored themselves by the older men for younger women and so they want to be able to say that the 99% of men over 23 who are sexually attracted to 17 year olds all need to be arrested as felons for even thinking about that.
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Segways into the main driving force of both US feminists and US evangelical “Christian” busybodies: Stopping men their age from dating younger women.
Divorce Law: Ultimately meant to reduce a man’s attractiveness to younger women by pauperizing him.
VAWA – Encourages young foreign brides to leave their older husbands creating a financial incentive to leave him, while creating a practical disincentive for American men to marry foreigners.
They are getting away with this. No intelligent man has yet dared to walk into a courthouse to challenge this (Den Hollander in 2008 was a psycho beta who wrote poems begging his stripper ex-wife to come back to him).
IMBRA – Logistically blocks American men from even saying hello to younger foreign women via international dating agencies online by saying the women have to physically sign a legal affidavit saying she has viewed his background check. This radical feminist federal law is not complied with in reality but most dating agencies are using it to turn their industry into a big fraud where women who aren’t interested in meeting men are paid $12 per month to leave their profiles up while agency employees pretend to write penpal letters back and forth with suckers in America who are being told that the woman “hasn’t approved of her direct contact information being given out”.
The feminists and other insecure older US women are getting away with this legislation because the foreign bride business was already collapsing as Russia and the Ukraine experienced much better financial conditions before 2009. Not one intelligent man has considered walking into a federal courthouse and simply saying “this violates my right to assembly”.
Men who date Filipinas half their age are notorious for being Beta Schlubs because they’ve allowed US feminist groups to actually get the Philippine government to BAN dating sites that introduce their women to American men. Apart from a few squeaks of protest from Internet forums, these guys (many of whom are retired and don’t need to worry about their corporate reputations) are doing nothing (well, some of them are getting laid with gorgeous women half their age, but you know what I mean).
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Having a scar on my face actually works in my favor especially when coupled with my military past (bar fight over a woman’s honor). Younger men just have acne.
Evolutionary biology says women want to mate with men who seem to have passed through a violent time (be that a war or just a bar fight). Just don’t lie about any specific combat in the US military that you did not experience: that is one of the lowest things an American PUA can do and carries huge penalties.
Veteran status plays huge with many women.
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Poetry of Flesh:
My last boyfriend was… oh, 18 years older than me.
And if he had done about half of what was suggested in this post, I never would have dated him.
Half? Never! POF will only settle for an older guy who does all of these things!
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Outstanding Dune reference.
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About the bald thing, you folks should try bicking out the dome at least once in your life. You wouldn’t believe the amount of confidence this brings, especially of the “i don’t give a fuck” type. On top of this, the shaved head gives you a lot more motivation to stay trim as there is no hiding from any extra pounds and you need to be moderately fit to pull it off. I do this with a full head of hair so my hairline is still fully visible.
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@blueblood
I shave my head (with an electric not bic) because it’s just easier to manage.
@Ronin
Try walk-outs for abs. Get in push-up position and then walk out with your hands as far as possible, then back in. You have to have pretty strong abs to even attempt these, but they work better than any ab exercise I’ve ever tried. Even at 13%bf you can still make out the outline of my abs.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/09/chris-cox-nixons-grandson_n_532003.html
Read this post and the above link within five minutes of each other.
Creepiest line:
“Andrea is engaged to the greatest man in the world (besides her father of course!)! YAYYYYYY!!!!! <3"
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Rum, that’s a pretty good idea, but what if a girl doesn’t have any dark confessions?
My husband tells me not to panic because at least at the moment, a woman can voluntarily waive her “rights”, and both rabbinical and family court will honor that. I don’t know if those will still be honored 5-10 years from now.
The Islamic, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox authorities are a bit more man friendly. The fact that they’re holding the line gives me some hope. The problem is that we have a kind of a dilema here between the civil and religious authorities.
There’s currently a push here for civil marriage so that people who have no official or officially recognized religion here, may marry. It looks like it’s going to happen. On the surface it seems like a good idea until you consider that cohabitation is legally recognized here. Sometime within the past few years, even the immigration authorities were forced to comply with the law on that. Getting married (elsewhere if you’re non religious or different affiliations) will help your case, but if someone is already here legally, it’s not a problem at all so long as you go through the proper channels.
So there is absolutely no need for civil marriage. It’s just something people want to give women more power to sue for property, and nothing more. Child support laws here are already enforced with a kind of combined patriotic and religious fervor that borders and sometimes crosses the line into insane. It’s not children that will profit from any of this. It’s exploitive women.
This is nothing more than an attempt to override the religious authority over what is truthfully a religious concept. When or if civil marriage is allowed to happen here, the only big change will be that Jewish and Muslim women will be able to go around the religious authorities and get civil divorces and marriages.
If the civil authorities get ahold of it, you might as well use any previously signed waivers or religious marriage documents as toilet paper.
I just have this horrible feeling that things are going to hell here. It’s a small country, and things like this can spell the end.
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Older man game works best when a man has used his extra years to increase his value far beyond a younger man’s ability.
It’s a helluva lot easier to get laid as a 40 year old CEO than a 40 year old parking lot attendant.
Played properly, age=status.
Of course, status isn’t enough. You still need game, and lots of it. Especially to prevent yourself getting gamed by a gold-digger.
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Older guys is where it’s at. Look for a birth date of no later than 1970.
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also, gray hair at the temples is quite sexy, just not in the facial hair.
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blueblood
One thing people who advocate seem to not consider is that this technique does not work for everyone. Some of us have a head shape that looks extremely bad when shaved.
You must have the right head shape to pull off the bald look. Sadly some of us have the combination of balding plus head shape that looks horrible shaved. For us we have no choice but to be balding, or wear a wig. Transplants are out.
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Anouk
Agreed on both counts, particularly the second. A graybeard aka Brad Pitt is not a good look.
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anouk and sdaed ftw.
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@Jack (the original)
“So I’m interning and this young attorney and me have been flirting. She went straight through undergrad to law school and I didn’t, and she’s probably about 6 years younger than me…”
1.) she’s a lawyer. have you ever read this site before?
2.) she’s pursuing her career in a very manly fashion, living the feminist dream. run away.
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3 Dating updates
25yrd old cancelled on me Thur; re-booked tonight @ 10; unfazed
35 yr old 9 model dowgraded me to drinks @ 7 tonite; no prob 25, beats 35
had coffee with a 8.5, 26 yr Ukrainian babe at 1pm; booked next week
Avg Sat for me…..
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not entirely related, but this is pretty freaky/awesome:
http://picdit.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/a-20-year-old-model-photographed-as-if-she-were-10-20-30-40-50-and-60-years-old/
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Though it is interesting that she looks older at 30 than at 40 or 50.
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I am 29, and one way to game younger chicks that I have found useful is to ask her her age first, before she has a chance to ask me.
No matter what she age says (20, 21, 25, etc…) , I always qualify her by saying: “You are a little too young for me.”
She almost always gets defensive and wants to prove she is not “too immature” to date me, at which point I tell her my age and she says “You are not too old for me.”
This strategy works since it gets the “age issue” out of the way early and lets me focus on getting into her pants.
Now, I don’t know if this would work if I was a lot older, but it seems to work for me now.
Another technique I use is to just lie about my age.
I can easily “pass” as a 22-year-old or a 23-year-old college student. I use this if the girl i am gaming looks barely legal (18 or 19), and thus would have a problem with a guy that is “too old.”
Most 18 & 19 year old girls have major issues dating dudes that are a lot older than them, so pretending to be younger is probably the only way to get into their pants.
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What do you do if you look much younger than you are? I’m in my 30s and look about 10 years younger. I am attracting a lot more college age women now then when I was in my 20s. When I was in my 20s I still looked liked a teenager. The problem is the women think I’m only a few years older than them, while I’m actually 10+ which shocks them when they find out. I tell the truth about my age.
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“What do you do if you look much younger than you are? I’m in my 30s and look about 10 years younger. I am attracting a lot more college age women now then when I was in my 20s. When I was in my 20s I still looked liked a teenager. The problem is the women think I’m only a few years older than them, while I’m actually 10+ which shocks them when they find out. I tell the truth about my age.”
What do the girls do when they find out your real age? Do they not want to date you anymore?
It is always best to tell the truth if you want a long-term relationship since they will eventually find out (like come marriage time).
However, if you just want fuck them, then I say: LIE.
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“1.) she’s a lawyer. have you ever read this site before?”
Yes, and I agree on his views of lawyer chicks in general. Still, there are exceptions, and more importantly, I’m really just talking about fucking her.
“2.) she’s pursuing her career in a very manly fashion, living the feminist dream. run away”
If women who get advanced degrees are all off limits then half of NYC is.
Basically, she’s mid 20’s and probably thinks I’m her age. I’m early 30’s.
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Super post. Thanks!
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Silver Fox said:
You seem to have a lot of foreign women in your online dating lists. Do foreign women use online dating more, or do you favor them more?
Also, I’m curious if you have any specific way to screen out the dangerously bad, or dangerously crazy women. I remember you “made” Amanda Knox fairly easily. So is there anything you’ve learned to look for?
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Instead I am reminded of the sad characters from the pages of Chekhov: sleepwalking through life, forever hoping that tomorrow things will somehow be changed for the better as they blindly allow opportunities for lasting happiness to slip through their fingers. But this is merely the natural outcome of conceiving of a human life as a series of revocable and inconsequential choices. We are, indeed, protected from certain risks, but have correspondingly little to gain; we have fewer worries but no great aspirations. The price we pay for eliminating the dangers of intimacy is the elimination of its seriousness.
In place of family formation, we find a “dating scene” without any clear goal, in which men and women are both consumed with the effort to get the other party to close options while keeping their own open. There is a hectic and never-ending jockeying for position: fighting off the competition while keeping an eye out for a better deal elsewhere. The latest “singles” fad, I am told, is something called speed dating, where men and women interact for three minutes, then go on to someone else at the sound of a bell.
Sex belongs to early adulthood: one transient phase of human life. It is futile to attempt to abstract it from its natural and limited place in the life-cycle and make it an end in itself. Sustainable civilization requires that more important long term desires like procreation be given preference over short term wishes which conflict with them, such as the impulse to fornicate.
– http://www.toqonline.com/2010/04/sexual-liberation-and-racial-suicide/
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here’s an off topic idea: men are empire builders. women merely want to be the concubine of an emperor.
on the small scale this means men care more about their families — those tiny empires — than women do, and feel more destroyed when their families are destroyed than women do.
just a hypothesis, but men seem to be much more devastated about losing their family than women do. women can jump from empire to empire — or family to family — much more easily than men.
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[…] Chateau – “Using This Blog as a Pickup Prop“, “What is the Best Type of Person to Marry?“, “May December Game” […]
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I feel sorry for balding guys. It sucks and makes you look terrible. A shaved off head may work only if you have an exceptionally cute skull. ( or if you happen to be married to Heidi Klum) Overall, baldness is a libido killer for me even though not as bad as a golden chain on a hairy chest.
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Gerrard Butler
Eric Bana
Hugh Jackman
Viggo mortenson
Vin diesel
Mathew mconahay
what do they have in common?
ALL OF THEM RECENTLY BECAME SEX SYMBOLS AFTER AGE 30-35.
Same goes for Pitt and depp, their sex appeal only increased post 30. Bruce willis was 33 when the first die hard film was made in 1988 and stallone was over 30 at the first Rocky.
Staying slim and fit(which does get harder as you age) really is all there is to it. If you are seriously worried about getting girls past ages 30-35 you probably had no significant looks in the first place. You are just as fucked as when you were 21, not more so. pray you have some money.
If the “game” we are reffering to were say Soccer, basketball or tennis, then yes we could say you are past it at 30/35. But game in the roissy sense? You’re only as young as the woman you feel.
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@Nicole – Do you have a link to something I can announce to 8000 Twitter followers (mostly US Republicans and Libertarians) about what just happened in Israel regarding cohabitation? Something about Australia’s laws would be important as well.
I can’t just announce that a “toothbrush and panties law” was just passed in Israel. I have to show just how dangerous it really might be now to let a woman keep her panties at your place in Tel Aviv, compared to last year (I’ve personally done very well dating in Tel Aviv).
If this legislative event is serious enough, Renegade would want to do an entire post about it, complete with better keywords in the title, etc.
Half of my 8000 followers are conservative women who seem to really hate Obama and they really talk up the US Constitution. The problem is I am not sure I would trust many of them on the latter far enough to throw them.
They do seem to agree that Hillary PUMAs only pretended to be in favor of Sarah Palin because they hated Obama for beating Clinton.
I say often enough that feminists are driven to push cougarism and use laws to stop men from dating younger women, but I don’t hit conservative female followers over the head with the idea that women have a shorter window of attractiveness. It is just as easy to say that “VAWA incentivizes bad socialist women to make false abuse claims”. They jump on that true true statement and run with it.
I also have about two dozen Republican Senators following me and only the Alaskan female senator has unfollowed so far (over the course of the past year).
I also can’t link to most of Renegade’s posts because so many of them are religious and say they are happily married and much of this would go too far for their sensibilities. I would like to see a blogger comment on Renegade’s posts in a manner that mainstream Republicans can link around. It can be done.
It would be great if Renegade could do a monthly review post for the Republican and Libertarian Voter audience (or submit an article per month to Mens News Daily dot com). It would have to be more G or PG rated and tactfully geared so as not to overly upset the older GOP women while not coddling to them either.
The GOP + Libertarians are poised for take over by the pro-male crowd (as opposed to the Bush Neocon Anti-Male crowd). The good news is that the only opposition I get from the GOP crowd on Twitter is the occasional male religious nut who thinks that feminism and Christianity are the same thing.
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Women who prefer older men, like myself, do not care if a guy is balding. In fact, it’s a good way to broadcast that you are an older man.
It helps to be in good shape, but again, women actually looking for older men are not looking for miracles of modern pharmaceutical genius.
The issue some of you might have though, is that those of us who prefer older men when we’re young are usually the homely or different girls who are rejected by our same aged peers in favor of girls who are either “hotter” or put out sooner for non romantic reasons. We’re also usually looking for a guy who’s interested in marrying (or committing to) us and making babies before our eggs get old.
An old guy looking for a one night stand or something else explicitly temporary is, for us, a disappointment. Very few women who prefer older men have enough of a real fetish for them that their motivation is purely sexual. The idea is to get away from guys with nothing but sex on the brain.
Very few guys can make dirty old man look good, and they’re all Scottish. If you’re not Scottish, don’t bother.
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Nicole: Names, woman.
Sean Connery.
It’s probably wrong to confess an attraction to him in Entrapment when 12 years old.
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Roissy last wrote directly on this topic 2 years ago + one week in the post “Further Thoughts on Dating Younger Women”. I guess it was about time for this post.
In the comments there, a young woman Anne Onymous wrote that she is dating a man 14 years older but only because he lied about his age before the relationship developed.
She said he said he was 29 when they met. Let’s assume she was 21 at the time and he was really 35 when he said he was 29.
What is interesting is that she sounded almost peeved that her boyfriend had tricked her initially…but was very happy at the same time that he did.
She didn’t say so directly but she made it clear: Young American women want you to tell them what they want to hear OR ELSE.
The need of too many US raised young women to hear “29” is the reason I left the USA at 42 when it was no longer possible to say I was 29.
At 42 in the USA, I was telling 20 year old American women I was 29 online in order to get the date, and then getting away with admitting “I’m actually 32” on the date itself…which almost always went over OK. I’d laugh to them over dinner about how it “got a few beach bunnies to respond” which served the purpose of showing pre-selection and the acceptable excuse that “I had to temporarily lower my age online because other women aren’t as intelligent and fair as you and I wanted to experiment with where their heads were at”.
I looked 32 so I only got caught once (because I was stupid enough to meet the Christian evangelist father who then moved Heaven and Hell to background check me).
Most intelligent women understand that they themselves have tweeked with their online profile to see if responses change. So it is OK to admit on the first date that the profile wasn’t 100% accurate.
Admitting online to being over 35 is like spitting into the wind if you want an American 18-24 to date.
How not to get “caught” before sex:
1) Hide your driver’s license in your car and don’t get stopped by a cop who might make you verbalize what is on it. Don’t keep documents in your home anywhere that state your birth-date (make it so she can stay at your place when you go to work and she won’t find anything when she snoops).
2) Don’t meet the parents or friends. Not only will this greatly increase the chance of an accurate background check being conducted, it will create instant spies everywhere who will spot you with your other girlfriends when you date them as part of your MLTR.
3) Tell 3 dozen social networking websites that your birthday is 15 years younger than you are. The consensus will be that the older Internet record of you will be that of your uncle if you have an uncommon name.
Basically, pollute Google with false information that you are much younger. Google is not your friend anyway. Don’t treat it with respect. You don’t owe any sign-up form the truth about your age unless its a bank loan or tax form.
4) Stay out of the Sun all your life. Never smoke cigarettes. Work out more than those around you.
You can go for years in a relationship being 10 years younger than you really are. Who wants to get married anyway?
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“I like the Hank Moody look — a pared down artsy style of tight black tee under a fitted hipster jacket, coupled with distressed dark jeans and either super swank shoes or scenester sneakers. I top it off with some mild peacocking, like a ring, leather bracelet, sunglasses, and fedora. But a fat guy would look ridiculous in a similar get-up.”
Um, pretty sure everyone looks ridiculous in that get-up. Not saying it won’t work, but you’ll look like an ass heel to other guys. But hey, if you’re getting laid…
That being said, Roissy’s later comment about context being king is spot on…
…DC is largely a “company town” in that many people here have a connection to politics or government and all went to a number of private colleges.
I have a strong feeling that Roissy almost exclusively hangs out in the part of town where “non-company” or “other” young professionals hangout: Adams Morgan, et al. This where the accountants, real estate agents, insurance salesmen and other assorted State School grads go. Its also the only context that “scenster sneakers” wouldnt get you laughed out of the bar.
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I notice how middle aged women get so much fatter than middle aged men in America these days. To be fair, maybe it is just more noticeable on women since their looks are a much greater part of their appeal to the opposite sex, but it’s really terrible out there. Looking at dating sites, it is sort of rare to find a woman over 35 or 40 who is not fat. Has it always been this way or is this a recent development? Maybe it’s all the high fructose corn syrup in our foods.
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Has anyone here gotten into the pants of a sub-18 year old girl when 30+ years old himself? How did you game them? Was it worth it?
I figure that of all the places on the web, this is where such people would congregate and swap information.
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@Xontrarian
A hotter topic might be what about the women who say they are 18 but are not.
Unlike Italian men who brag openly about having dated a 17 year old (the most popular movie in Italy recently was about an affair a 37 year old businessman had with a Sound of Music type that age – Berlusconi is a hero for hanging out with someone that age), American men, in the past 20 years, have considered the topic of 17 year olds taboo.
In divorce cases, women will use the “he looked at a 17 year old” line as an excuse to win custody of the kids.
Laws always follow customs and taboos so it is a shame that more younger men 18-25 don’t blog more openly about wanting to date someone who is above the age of consent (I wouldn’t expect Renegade to do so). If they don’t do that, new age of consent laws will make it illegal to date someone today whom they could have dated yesterday.
There is one defensive blog from the mother of a man who was labeled a sex offender at age 18 because he dated someone who said she was above the age of consent but wasn’t (anti-male laws in many states say it doesn’t matter what the female tells the male).
Obviously, the threat of being lied to by someone underage becomes worse for all men the higher the age of consent actually is in a particular state. That is why it is at least necessary to have a buffer between actual age of consent and what is considered socially acceptable.
Older insecure women have every reason to make even saying hello to a 17 year old online illegal. The trend is for such a law to be proposed and passed at the federal level. One part of the IMBRA law set the precedent for communications between Americans and non-Americans so it is only a matter of time before it becomes universal: It is now illegal to introduce a foreign 17 year old to an American online (via a dating site) because the courts now see communication as = sex and the Protect Act (another wildly unconstitutional federal law) already set an “International Age of Consent” governing American citizens when they are not inside the USA.
As if the US Government should have authority over its citizens in other countries (not even the Romans went so far as the US is doing).
This is a slippery slope American men have fallen over. They have allowed the concept of communication = dating = sex to become law.
If even young adult men are not willing to put their foot down and lawmaking regarding females 16+ goes too far, a domestic US law will happen that says it is illegal for any adult to chat with a 17 year old online.
Since Match.com made the arbitrary decision in 1995 to limit their online dating site to 18+ (as if meeting people equaled sex), the American public, and especially the Internet sphere, holds talk of dates with 17 year olds to be beyond the pale. French and German dating sites are often 16+ but the biggest are 18+ because they want to be bought out by American companies.
This topic is one example of how corporate America ultimately decides how people all over the world get to see the world. 18 is now an entrenched number.
Still, most US states are at 16 for the age of consent and most of the rest are at 17. It isn’t that bad for young men yet.
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@ahappinessexperiment:just a hypothesis, but men seem to be much more devastated about losing their family than women do. women can jump from empire to empire — or family to family — much more easily than men.
Women will fight to the death for their children, though, so don’t think that hopping to another man is always straight forward or without risk. Here’s one who seemed to manage it, though she lost custody of her daughters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine
@Xontrarian
Have you tried standing outside school gates with a bag of boiled lollies?
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Just an FYI: Advice can’t be given by old ugly girls. Take the hint and refrain from offering worthless advice that is useless to guys seeking information on hot to get hot girls. Thanks.
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Xontrarian-
“Have you tried standing outside school gates with a bag of boiled lollies?”
ha, ha….or perhaps standing outside of school gates with a bag of skittles?
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Bhetti
That’s my girl!
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anoukange–
Having the age of consent be higher than 16 (as Cali does and so many people mistakenly think most of the US does) is recent, completely ahistorical, and the result of 2nd wave feminism pure and simple.
In fact more states have 16 as the age of consent than any other age. Next does come 18, but there’s a lot at 17 too. Used to be a lot at 14, 30-40 years ago.
Now below 18 and really below 20 is way too young for me these days for lots of reasons, but for a mid 20’s guy, nope, nor vice versa except by propaganda.
There is the whole idea of limiting sexual activity before marriage (which feminists aren’t down with at all), but if she’s one of those girls that’s gonna be sexually active all the way in hs anyway, and most American girls are these days by 16, I fail to see why a guy in his 20s should be so utterly taboo.
The notion that it’s pedophilia for a guy out of his teens to have sex w/a 16yo is way ridiculous, by any biological, historical, or other scientific criteria. Hell at 16 most girls have been past puberty and bleeding and have been able to conceive for at least 3 years and not infrequently 5. They’ve cleared looked like it in terms of secondary sexual features by 14. Breasts, hips, etc.
So while it can be prohibited for a 20 something of just 30 guy to have sex w/a 16yo way past Lolita, to treat him as having some sort of sexually deviant perverse sickness is pure doublething and fundamentally a feminist ideological lie. It really is for any girl 14 and up unless she’s very immature for age, growing up in the American nutritional and health environment.
So if feminists aren’t interested in keeping down female sluttery before marriage or an other form of long term child rearing commitment, why are they so into 18 as the age of consent, esp. for men older than 18? Simple. Female power. As in the personal is political. They know that a mid teen girl is a lot more likely to fall into a generally submissive and male following kind of love (i.e. the natural kind before 2nd wave and later feminism propagandized and created all kinds of heavily distorting male coercing laws), than if she is restricted to guys her age ideally all through high school by scorning pressure on guys to not rob the cradle and fear even in hs of statuatory rape charges if she’s younger, and out of hs in college, by shaming there to re guys dating significantly younger girls. It’s all about feminists trying to destroy the masculine role in relationships, or at least any easy and general, largely across the board one, supported by the culture, as has always previously been the case.
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or perhaps letting a hairy sand nigger come inside your pussy on a bus in colombia?
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Comment moderation fail. Thread-killer alert.
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The Economist link by ahappinessexperiment is sociology gold. They really have connected the dots as regards mass incarceration of black male population. Men with options do not marry, hence the abysmal drop in marriage rates.
However, what they could have stressed more is the fact that due to women’s pre-programmed hypergamous tendencies, they also prefer having sex (and kids) with high status men to marrying guys from a lower socio-economical class. Hence the uselessness of efforts such as those urging the “college-educated sisters to consider marrying honourable blue-collar workers, such as the postman.”
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Economist Schmeconomist
“The Economist link by ahappinessexperiment is sociology gold. They really have connected the dots as regards mass incarceration of black male population. Men with options do not marry, hence the abysmal drop in marriage rates”.
I usually anticipate reading the comments by other readers of a great article but this was the first time i had to bail.
Unlike the insight from MEN on this forum.
Cheers!!
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Xontrarian, it’s illegal in most places to try to “game” women under 18. If you’re interested in marrying a virgin, though, then your best chance of that is in the church.
My parents wouldn’t have blinked if a guy around 30-ish had legitimate interest in me.
At 16, I’d have been thrilled. Back then I had a crush on the guy who worked in the office next to my dad. Unfortunately, he was convinced that the relationship would be “inappropriate”, and was afraid that my dad would kill him. I assured him that wasn’t the case, and even managed to kiss him once. He didn’t believe me, and just thought I was saying it to get his lucky charms.
So very many things would be different if he’d butched up and asked my dad if he could court me.
He contacted me a couple of years ago, after talking to my parents, expressing regret for not having done the traditional thing. It took him that long to actually get it directly from them that they wished someone like him had not left me in the dating wilderness to fend for myself.
Live and learn I guess.
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The marriage market is decidedly biased against black women. Who says life is fair?
Lots of things conspire against black women in finding a black husband.
The mass incarceration of black men is hardly the issue. Mass criminality among black men is. Also, don’t forget the murder rate. We kill about 220 young black men each year in Baltimore alone. Over ten years, that’s over 2000 men removed from the pool of possible marriage partners in our fair city.
Don’t forget the considerable number of black men who marry white women.
There is an obvious anti-dark bias among blacks. Rare is the pairing of a light skinned black man and a dark skinned black woman, in real life or in the media/advertising. So, a dark black woman will have to marry a dark or darker black man. Subtract the ones in jail, in a life of crime, unemployed, or dead, and a dark skinned black woman is facing a real uphill battle in finding a good husband.
But, hey, why make a big issue of this. Our feminists like to point out that unmarried women live longer and are happier or some such than married women. (These are the same people who said single motherhood was a good idea.) And, growing old alone? Sorry, black man die on the average at about 67 or some such. They will not be the ones to keep you company in your old age. Better have kids or marry an Asian.
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Grampa, the dirty truth nobody wants to tell because it wouldn’t allow them to be victims is that there are plenty of decent Black men who prefer to be with Black women.
It’s just that to get one, you have to be a decent Black woman.
Black women have fallen for feminism, and now they’re paying the price. Any cultural idiocy is going to hit the lowest status members harder than the highest.
I personally have no problem at all finding decent Black men. I didn’t even when I was relatively ignorant of what men were really thinking. When things started going south with my first ex, I was here and there in the DC area of all places, minding my own business, and guys were coming out of the woodwork. I had to do that ring showing thing during the smalltalk to deter them, and it didn’t always work immediately…and I’m no great beauty. This was after I was fat, when I was bigger than I am now.
I would venture that higher end blue collar and white collar Black men are *desperate* to find a decent Black woman. What they’re after though, is someone who is kind, trusting, nurturing, and interested in being their *woman*.
How many Black women do you know like this?
Black women who are have more options than just Black men. So we don’t really feel the shortage. I have two single brothers, and plenty of single male relatives and friends of the family who are decent men trying to find a decent woman to marry.
Most of them are not overly picky about looks in the mainstream sense. They would date someone fat, or even someone who has kids. They might even go reasonably older. They’re not finding women who aren’t hoe-ing around or harpies.
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I heading to 27, and the first signs of baldness just appeared.
The way I approach young girls? Exactly as I did when I was their age. Zero issues with age. What benefitsme the most is the fact that this country has been overrun by a gay epidemic in the last 10 years.
The generation 10 years younger than me is, according to my accounts, 25% gay on the boys’ side. Add to this the Counter Strike crowd plus the overall effeminacy of the younger crowd, and we do have an oversupply of females at the 18-21 age bracket.
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“We kill about 220 young black men each year in Baltimore alone.” What do you mean “we” Kemosabe? That is blacks killing each other. I guarantee you that few or no whites are killing blacks or raping black women.
Part of the issue with black marriage/mating patterns, is that African women are much less dependent on support from men for reproductive success than Europeans or Northern Asians due evolving in a milder climate. Google Philippe Rushton for an explantion.
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I’m 42, SLIGHTLY overweight (working on that), bad complexion, grey hair. No problem finding enthusiastic young women as young as 23 years old, though I generally try to stick with 27+ because I like somebody I can talk to and that extra few years can make a HUGE difference. I actually prefer 32, anybody who still looks stunning at 32 has got some killer genes going on and may hold up better than most curent 22 year olds.
I don’t even have much ‘game’ other than inner game. I know who I am. I’m happy with myself. I fear nobody and I certainly don’t fear rejection. My attitude is so strong that women seek me out at the bar. I can’t remember the last time I went out that I didn’t have at least one young woman hit on me. I have better looking younger friends who are going nuts trying to figure out why women are more attracted to me than them.
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I’m a chick who dates older men – need to feel like the hot young thing – not the older woman – ewww. But – it’s tricky – because a lot of older men have given up on staying current. Not just clothes but attitudes. I don’t want fuddy duddy I want intense, energetic, charismatic. This is available at any age as long as you have inner game going on.
On bald – I like it but if the monk head thing shows by evening – shave twice a day. Just sayin’
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gig–
How did all that happen in Brazil of all places?
I get that you’ve long been the tranny capital of the world, or the chicks w/dicks capital. (though why I wonder?)
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aofe,
Staying current is definitely important. I listen to new indie rock, not to be cool, but because I love it. I dress more like a tasteful 32 year old than a 42 year old and I can pull it off with no problem – it looks natural on me. I don’t hang out at meat markets EVER, I hang out at the local ‘hipster’ bars full of artists and professors, because that’s the type I am attracted to. Honestly I might do much worse at the meat markets but there’s nobody there I would enjoy conversing with, so who cares.
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Beer Monkey.
yeah mid or late 20s is as young as I generally want to go too, with an exception.
I have this theory that gen Y has been so betaized / feminized and feminist indoctrinated generally that it’s actually become easier than every for even reasonably macho guys to pick up hottish or hot chics in most settings. Now in the most sausage filled at all ages and competitive venues where hot chicks congregate such as certain bar and a lot of nightclub scenes, tight game might be needed given all the game around now in such places. (But there has long been a fair bit of natural or other game at such venues.) But in most day game settings esp. that’s completely swamped by the betaization factor. And also perhaps by less male ambition, except way up the jobs status later. (No diminishing of ambition on Wall street, despite it’s current vilification.)
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@beer monkey – “Honestly I might do much worse at the meat markets but there’s nobody there I would enjoy conversing with, so who cares.”
That’s a great point – if you’re not enjoying it why the hell do it! 🙂
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Doug you DO make exceptions for the 20’s. I can think of one brilliant beauty right now in fact. 😉
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Doug1,
How old are you? I’m just curious.
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Laura–
Guess.
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I’m guessing late 30’s.
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Older baby.
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Maybe early 40’s now that I think about it.
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Laura guess again.
Oh my that was Doug’s line wasn’t it? Ooops. He’s 29.
(love ya Doug)
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Not that this is particularly apropos of the current discussion here, either the one roissy started or others that have cropped up in comments, but I’ve been thinking about this in idle moments.
Seems to me that Roissy’s famous 1-10 scale for male alphaness in his attractiveness to women, and what factors contribute to that alphaness, is pretty accurate and an eye opener to lots of guys and girls alike. once they really understand it and sometimes fight against it awhile, they usually have a eureka moment, and realize how much of previously somewhat mysterious or at least contradictorily explained female behavior it explains. And how suck assholes can score such hot girls, regularly, while nice and even successful guys can’t nearly as often or easily (and some exaggerate to not at all).
The factors Roissy says are most important to making someone more alpha in girls eyes on his now famous scale (the female hotness one’s been around forever) are in rough order: status (the supercharge of which is fame); game (or the ability to act playfully cocky dominant w/women; looks and money. But money mostly if it’s real big and if she’s a bit older. The measure of alphaness, the easy way of knowing, is such things as the hottest girl he can pull for casual sex, the total number of girls he’s had if doing lots is his inclination, how many threesome’s he’s had if any, and how long his dry spells are between girls, and similar. Here:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/defining-the-alpha-male/
That’s been review and bringing you newbies up to speed. What I want to say though begins here.
This scale is really only good for assessing the edgie/sexy attractiveness of men, and is only applicable alone for casual sex. The more casual in intent or carefreeness of the girl in question in setting and at the time (“a relatioonship developing with a hot guy would be great and what I most want yeah, but I ain’t about to settle one little bit now”), the more the Roissy male alphaness scale alone is applicable.
However when a girl is looking for less casual sex and in fact boyfriend hunting, even if it isn’t yet husband hunting, cause she’s a more good kind of girl, then no that one Roissy scale isn’t the whole story, not by a long shot. Oh it still measures part of her equation, the male sexiness part (which is only attributed by girls to mostly be about looks but which is mostly about “edgieness” which often can or thinks she can see in his face, but comes more from his behavior).
For girls wanting stable relationships and love from a guy rather than mostly just sex, she’s going have another scale. And no, it’s not just a matter of knowing she’ll have to settle lower on Roissy’s male hotness scale in order to get long term loving and stable. It’s certainly not as if the lower one goes on Roissy’s hotness scale the better mate and dad she thinks she’ll find. All 1-3 omegas are out unless the guys there solely due to extra bad looks, because these ranks are filled by very low status clerks and other slackers and endless video game addicts, who have no real drive or ambition and certainly don’t look like good providers.
Instead there’s really this seperate will make a good mate and eventually dad scale. Most desirable here (among factors not high on the hotness scale) are: loving and commited to her, and likely to stay long term loyal; truly compatible in life goals and enough interests and things they like doing together; makes a lot of money so will be able to be a good provider and not just want to be; has higher broader world not just small circle natural status that she can be proud of his as someone she’s identified with and shares status with; easy enough to live with.
Often a guy who is an 8 or 9 or even 10 on this scale will be sufficiently socially adept and have enough status to be a higher beta on the hotness scale. So that’s why higher betas (male 7s) on the hotness scale are often recommended as the best husband and dad material.
Of course her real home run is a hotness 9 and a mate 9 (leaving out the truly rare 10/10s. Amost I think this is impossible because to be hotness 10 and stay there? Well tell me if the married and tired looking and it seems female lead Brad Pitt is even now a male 10 (after your’ve seen recent pics of him w/his wife and kids). That will be your personal answer.
But a hotness 8 and mate 8 is not impossible to find nor a 9 and 8 combo.
Anyway, I think this would better explain the full range of considerations that go into female selection of males for different purposes, aside from having to settle some when she’s wants to get the guy exclusive to her or at the least, putting her way first.
What say you all, esp. girls?
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No, he’s not 29, aoefe you tease. As you very well know.
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Doug you know I don’t kiss and tell. 😉
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Doug,
Why would a man participating in a threesome be some big turn-on to a woman? I honestly wouldn’t even want to know about it. I certainly wouldn’t disqualify him for it, but why even tell me.
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I honestly don’t want to know the details of his sexual history. If he’s a true alpha you’ll know in any number of ways – the way he captures women’s attention, the command he has in the bedroom, the way he enters a room, the confidence he has in approach. You’ll know that even if he hasn’t chosen to rack up the numbers he was able to if he so chose.
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Doug,
I don’t think men usually get judged on a 1-10 scale. Most men are not hot, in fact most men aren’t even that good looking in my opinion. That’s why it helps to have other things going for you. If a man is too good looking I always figured I’d never be able to get him anyway and didn’t bother with him too much. What are his good looks going to do for you anyway?
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Laura totally has a point. I’ve never gone for the super duper so handsome you have to shield your eyes guy – he’s competition for starters. 😉
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Laura–
Well I wouldn’t likely tell you if I sensed it would turn you off.
Girls when they do threesomes w/a guy usually do it either because i) they’re bi curious and this feels like an ok way to explore that a little that will also please their boyfriend lots and give him something she knows most girls won’t; or 2) the later reason alone. As for the girl who’s known the guy less long/isn’t his gf, she’s usually a real and easy type who’s likely to be more bi. Or she might want to steal the boyfriend or explore if she wants to enough, so of course the bf has to very reassuring about that to the gf, such that she believes him. And he has to be careful to pay his gf more attention first in the process, even though he might be inclinded to play with his new present first.
but I mentioned it in the long thing above to reprise Roissy alphaness theory, not as a flirt piece directed at you Laura. ;P
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Can Renegade please change the title to May-September Game as Doug suggested yesterday? There is nothing December about being 40 something.
True May December Game is something for very successful men over 60.
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Doug,
Okay, it sounds like you have some personal experience with this. I actually have a male friend who told me I should do this with my husband. My husband said if he has another woman in his bed he would prefer me not to be there.
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Laura–
Good looking isn’t that important to girls, even though they think it is and Hollywood tells them it is and they talk between themselves as if it is.
Individual tastes differ, but as an example, in most of his roles Russel Crow is hot and most women older than teenagers think so. (Virginal or close girls who’ve not had much sexual experience real or vicarious do tend to value pretty boy looks more.) He’s not that good looking at all. But he is edgie and playfully dominant and tough looking, but with feeling. Women then project that onto his looks. They see it there. So he’s hot in a rough hewn kind of way, or something.
Roissy puts male handsomness as 4 out of 5th lowest in the major categories of what women really think is hot, measured by who they really want to and do have casual sex with. I think he’s right.
It’s confident, easy dominance, societal and over girls (in ways they want and accept) that are the hottest things in men to girls. They then call that hotness and looks.
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Laura–
fMf threesomes are really only safely for alphas, all around. They do require a lot of savvy on the guy’s part to make work well unless both girls are real bi or super confident, but even then it works way better when everyone is way confident and savvy and rather free and easy about things instead of fearful of losing. Tends to be way easier w/younger women for these reasons also.
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Doug: Can these scales go some way to explaining some interesting behaviour around the three-date rule? There was an observation Paul Janka made about the speed of intimacy and whether the girl wanted the relationship to get converted to longer-term.
The same woman can view casual sex i.e. being easier as sleeping with a “douchebag”. It’s not a compliment; she’s disqualifying him from being her mate. If he’s alpha 8, mate 8 vs alpha 8 mate 3… she’s more likely to sleep quickly with the latter, because she won’t want to pursue a relationship and doesn’t care if he sees her as easy.
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Re: men’s looks.
This link is fun:
http://collegecandy.com/2008/07/01/do-women-prefer-men-with-stubble/
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@aoefe,
when u say older men, how old? just curious.
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I agree. The man involved would have to be very confident. I possibly could have done something like this when I was younger, but I would really have no interest in it now. The thought of being with another woman isn’t really a turn-off to me, but it’s not really a turn-on either. I’m kind of neutral on it.
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My point before was I don’t think a man should generally kiss and tell, especially to other women. It’s just a courtesy you should extend to the women you have been with. Also, a woman shouldn’t really ask too many questions about your sexual past either.
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I have to admit, this post left me with a good feeling. I turned 40 last year, my testosterone levels dropped, and I don’t have sex on my mind as much as I used to. As a friend once told me: “In our 20’s we chased girls. In our 30’s girls chased us. What will our 40’s be?”
I’m happy to no longer be a slave to my cock. I talk to women now and there is no sexual tension, and it feels great. Imagine that, talking to women like they are, after all, just people. It’s been a long time. From about 12 clear through to late 30’s, a man is literally enslaved to his penis.
So I look forward to the future, and having a real relationship based on mutual interests, respect, attraction. So nice to know women dig older guys. I was a little worried, there.
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Bhetti–
Astute.
Yuup. Hadn’t thought of that in terms of the two scales but yeah absolutely.
The more I mull it over the more I like the two scales idea. And Laura’s right that women don’t much tend to think in rank order scales naturally. They blend stuff together for different purposes. But that doesn’t mean that teasing apart the two main components of the blend, these two scales, doesn’t have explanatory and clearer thinking power.
They also fit in very neatly with the two kinds of attraction that the sexes have, sexual or lust, and love or pair bonding that you wrote about in your latest Girlgame post. Which may be part of how this idea that’s been kicking around below the surface crystallized for me. (So thanks!)
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Nicole – age of consent in most of USA is 16. Gaming 16+ is OK.
It would be interesting to hear how a 30+ guy gets in the pants of 18-year olds.
As the cases of Helg Sgarbi and Jeffrey J. Marsalis demonstrate (google them for more info) – guys who get good at what they do max it out.
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I wonder actually if some women are jealous of a man’s ability to experience sexual desire much easily. Well, supposedly much more easily. Men don’t talk about their potency problems.
Doug
It’s useful I think to view it as r-selective/K-selective. What I think you’re saying here is that its not so much a spectrum of alpha/beta but that some parts of alpha/beta are separate. That is, they’re not opposed.
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@Jacko
The oldest has been 17 years older. I like that age gap for increasing my hotness factor, however it did not pan out. The most promising was 13 years older but he got hit by a car. True story.
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Quoting from the collegecandy poster that Bhetti links above:
And the reason why that bugs you [the CC blogger] is because you think there’s something wrong with that basic truth, due to the feminist propaganda, and damn little contra-feminist teaching unless you’re from a particularly religious background, and not all of them either. Especially for mostly sexual relations or ones that don’t have to be all encompassing or very long term, that’s JUST what the great majority of women gina tingle for, and what most women want heavily represented in a long term mate or husband as well.
Yuup indeed.
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Jacko,
I like what you wrote. I just don’t understand why all these older men enjoy being out at bars with people in their early twenties trying to pick up much younger women. Don’t you guys sometimes just feel like staying in and renting a movie with one person? I’m a 35 year old woman and I’m married but if I wasn’t I would probably just be looking for someone age 35-50 or so who’s company I enjoy. I would like it if there was some physical attraction there, but that certainly wouldn’t be the most important thing. When I talk to men now I don’t feel like there is all that much sexual tension anymore and it does make it much easier to be friends with them.
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Xontrarian, for girls already on the cock carousel, really all you have to be is be the member of some local band that plays at places they’d go to, a DJ, or rich and showing it. You don’t need game. You just need money or drugs.
Unethical, yes, but this is the reality. If you want innocence, you’ve got to go through the parents. If you just want casual sex with chronologically young women, nothing here will help you as much as a little plastic bag.
Guys making a show of “gaming” teenagers are taking you for a ride.
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correction: whose company, my writing sucks
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Bhetti–
btw, we probably should call it male: sexy 8; mate 8 rather than alpha 8; mate 8.
Alpha really fundamentally just means higher on a scale. People don’t like that because they know the sexiness scale isn’t the some total of a man’s worth to a woman, if she isn’t just trolling for a hot lay, or a hot guy to fling with for a month or two maybe.
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Bhetti–
Well almost but not quite.
I also don’t think it’s right to call a guys desire to have a long term mutually loving relationship beta, or lower than another guy’s desire to have at least one new girl every week, and generally a rotation of 3 regular one’s he sees once every two weeks or more. Unless one of them gets neglected and is therefore out of there in favor of a new girl, or herself presses for promises of his exclusiveness to her which he won’t really give her, so she’s out of there. That’s a common pua ideal. E.g roissy, Roosh, Tyler Durden. I’ve been kind of like that at times, if not quite so geometically clean or precise as that.
Now there’s some truth to a lot of guys being loyal and loving in part because they can’t get hottish girls otherwise and they don’t want to lose one when they get one (higher betas). But it’s also true that guys can be able to get hot girls but still prefer committed relationships. Your edgie 8 mate 8 guy. (On use I’ve decided sexy 8 sounds too girly, so I’m going with edgie 8 for roissy’s one scale alpha 8.)
If you want to think only dichotomously, as opposed to on two scales, then cad versus dad work well as terms. Or we could call it the cad 8 and dad 8, except edgie sexy doesn’t have to be maximally caddish in action, just ability.
Or something.
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Good looking isn’t that important to girls…Individual tastes differ, but as an example, in most of his roles Russel Crow is hot and most women older than teenagers think so….He’s not that good looking at all.
Russell Crowe is very good looking. It’s easy to see in his photos from a couple of years ago . Only the large nose and masculine features stop him from being a pretty boy. Add muscular to that and he’s set. Now of course he’s getting old and losing his looks, but during the time he was becoming a star he was quite attractive.
But it’s true that charisma and acting talent,the ability to put on a role convincingly, is critical for men and not that important for women. Although people here underestimate how much difference confidence and flair can make for a woman’s looks.
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Laura, men generally prefer the looks of women who are nubile to peak fertility. That’s just a fact of life and nature. The good company factor is secondary.
What should be isn’t what is. To some degree, men haven’t yet adapted to the new feminist order, and don’t understand what they’re dealing with, but that’s one of those lessons best learned from experience.
I have three male friends who’ve become casualties of the pregnancy trap, and a couple more who have fallen for hoes. I have some acquaintances who have married women who were actual prostitutes in a different city, and moved to Haifa when they “retired”.
Guys’ brains turn off when they see a pretty girl. The only cure is to let them get enough of what they want until their desires mature or solidify.
Some guys would rather have hot young girls all their lives, even if it means paying for it or risking possession charges. That’s their right. It’s better for a guy to be honest about that than to marry someone and waste years of her life only to decide later that wasn’t for him.
My only warning would be that there’s a possibility that, like my first husband, you’ll get out there and get your ego bruised a few times when you figure out that a hoe has no loyalty. When a better offer comes along, she will leave you. Even more disheartening for some guys is that even if you make pretty good money, there’s always a guy with more, who has a more pimp personality.
This is why I tell guys to push away from the television. If your expectations for the outcome of a particular path do not match your abilities, you should probably consider a more realistic path.
For those who can handle it, it’s a great life for them. I have friends like this. I’m glad I’m just their friend because I wouldn’t want to be their bitch…but their bitches are hot. If that’s what a guy needs, he’d better butch up. You can’t be a nice guy and afraid of the police to have it like that.
This isn’t about ghetto either, by the way. Some of the biggest hoovers I know are suburban girls.
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You’re right. I know some men my age and even older who still like to go out all the time, meet girls, etc. I think one of them recently went to Carnival in Brazil. They realize they are not cut out for married life and have remained single. I guess if I was a man I would still want to get married and have children but I would probably wait until my mid thirties to start looking for a wife. Women don’t really have that luxury.
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Doug: Oh, yes! Novaseeker’s cad and dad is perfect.
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Dougie Wuggie was a bear
Dougie Wuggie had no hair
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@Bhetti,
What happens to men when they get older is that they just don’t let desire dominate them. However, not all men are the same, and so I can only speak for myself. When I turned 40 I noticed that my behavior was changing. Instead of going out on a weekend night and having some drinks I would stay in and rent a video. But what is important to observe is that the purpose of going out for a man is so that he may look at girls. So, if I am choosing to stay in and watch a movie, that tells me my testosterone level is dropping.
At first I didn’t know what to think. My first youth was driven to find a woman, and to ‘spread the seeds’. But now I can see getting older has its advantages. I audit a course at the university simply to improve my knowledge. I would never have done that five years ago. I was selfish and demanding sexually when I was younger. Now sex is an important aspect of a relationship, but it is not the main aspect. Actually, that’s to be determined. But we will only get older, and as we do it becomes more important to live a life of some value and meaning.
I think if a man only has sex on his mind beyond his 40’s, he may be a little disturbed. Or rather, perhaps he simply has a very high level of testosterone. But since I am happy to take an evening class at the university and stay in and watch a movie, I must conclude my testosterone is dropping. For me, I see an opportunity. When I do meet a woman and there is some chemistry, this just means that when we do become intimate it will be all the more meaningful.
Now everybody say ‘Awww’
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This is all bullshit. There is only one rule you need to know if you want to bang some hot girl 20+ years younger than you:
Be a musician.
Seriously. If you are young now, start learning. By the time you are old, The feministX maxim for picking up younger women will work for you.
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Before I was 25, I had two boyfriends over 10 years older than me. (Both 12 years older than me, I think). I never thought anything of it. Both had no trouble consistently dating women under 25. Both had completely natural game.
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“If the “game” we are reffering to were say Soccer, basketball or tennis, then yes we could say you are past it at 30/35.”
Umm, speak for yourself. I school guys young enough to be my sons on a regular basis. Working on your jumper and handle for 15 years while not becoming a fat fuck enables you to do that.
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I can’t relate to this whole ‘less horny over 40 thing’, but everyone is different I am sure. At 42, I’m so horny that it drives me crazy sometimes and I get erections at tons of inappropriate times. Not as much as when I was 17, but lots. I’m not sure what happened, it could be because I’m in pretty damned good cardiovascular shape for my age (yes, a little paunch but I do major cardio workouts) and much better shape than I was ten years ago. That said, I’m in control of my mind and my instincts and I don’t let it affect my interactions with women…but it is a challenge at times!
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I would disagree on one thing: baldness. While women initially look at it as a turn off, a bald head combined with a sophisticated attitude can have them come running. See Stewart, Patrick.
ButI have all my hair, so what do I know.
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Where is Roissy?
Not there in DC.
Not here since the 9th.
Pupu is wondering from far away where April is the hottest month; and December, the nicest.
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@Hardy Har
It’s not just Russell
Hugh jackman(41), Gerrard butler(40), vin diesel(42), Viggo mortenson(51), Denzel washington(55!!), Russell Crowe(46), Mathew mconahay(40), Wentworth miller(37), Eric Bana(41). Will smith(40), George Clooney(48).
All of them became sex symbols in their 30s through 40s. Same for Depp and Pitt sex appeal only increased after age 30. Bruce willis was 33 in first die hard film. Mel gibson over 30 in the first lethal weapon. Stallone 30 in the first rocky.
when it comes to actors it seems to be the rule rather than the exception that aging breeds success both as an actor and sex symbol.
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Actors are pretty much the polar opposite of sportstars when it comes to longevity of career and attracting women. At least with regards to the entertainment industry.
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FemX-
I’m laughing and completely agree. I’ve only dated guys older than myself, some significantly so, and two of them were musicians. I dated men in their forties while in my twenties and still go for the forty mark for their suaveness, calmness, wisdom, worldly travels, and established careers. And that’s not because I gave a shit about money, it’s because a man proves himself to be alpha by having a substantial career. They can’t be and were not spastic or temperamental which is tres sexy. Being multi-dimensional, and juggling all their balls is key. Also, they were raised with manners, which are sorely lacking in many guys under 38 these days. My long terms have been with guys who had natural game and natural sexiness since they had been young. Talent trumps posers, every time. Well said. 😉
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Feministx is right. Musicians don’t need much game because women love them regardless. They also manage to maintain alpha status throughout much of their lives. Professional athletes are highly desirable in their prime, but lose much of their status when they start to decline, usually thirties.
By age 40 a man’s days of playing the field are coming to an end. At that point I would say get the best girl you can and hold on to her.
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Doug1-
Feminists, like the ones you speak of above, should all be beaten and sent to an island somewhere. When I was 15 I had my first serious boyfriend and he was 21. My parents were not thrilled to say the least, but I established a pattern of going older so they learned to except it from me in years to come. Going older has always paid off and it allows for very natural power dynamics to take place. Having a younger guy try to dominant me is weird and unnatural and I can’t help but laugh when they try.
Him: “who’s your daddy?”
Me: “you are baby!”
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Great stuff here, overall.
As a culture we’re slanted towards younger women, but I’ve found older ones to be so much better…
No biological clock.
No vapid conversations about celebritards.
No “Where is this going”? (To bed, and back again, that’s where it’s going).
Actual bedroom skills, and decent culinary skills.
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OMFG this is so true! I’ve seen this time after time. The 18 year old I’d messing with right now has never seen her dad. Looking back all of the ones that were much younger, like more than 4 or 5 years younger, all had similar situations where daddy was never around.
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Younger women are just easier to deal with. Buy them the new Lil Wayne CD and anything you’ve done is forgiven.
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@beermonkey,
ya, I met some guys like that over the years, guys well into their sixties that were still slaves to their cock, living in Thailand and the Philippines. I guess ultimately, that is how the good lord designed us.
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Don’t worry. She fucks her less accomplished short terms on public transport. She’s nice like that.
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Jacko,
Low testosterone is not something to brag about. You are a perfect example of a feminized male, revelling in your lack of male sexual desire. How pathetic.
Moreover, you may have serious physical issues with your body that are causing your lack of sexual desire. I would be getting checked out at the doctors if I were you, not boasting about it online.
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Over half of women in abusive relationships still saw their male partners as dependable
iIt’s well known that many women remain in abusive relationships with their male partners. A new study by researchers in Toronto and New York suggests that many who live with chronic psychological abuse still see certain positive traits in their abusers—such as dependability and being affectionate—which may partly explain why they stay.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-04/smh-oho041210.php
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This is all bullshit. There is only one rule you need to know if you want to bang some hot girl 20+ years younger than you
the number of counter-examples to femX´s rule is so huge that I´d rather go the ad hominem way.
stop bullshitting around you lesbo.
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I had a feeling I was opening a can of worms. I think it’s important for men to realize they have options. Being a slave to one’s cock is not something to boast about. If you are over 40 and feel a need to prove your virility outside of marriage, or by being a PUA, I think it’s safe to say you’ve got some issues. Don’t you agree, Adrian?
Do you really respect an older man who goes to the clubs trying to score? Or do you respect more the married man who bangs his wife? I dunno, maybe it’s just me. Yes, when I was younger I lived the life of a player. But it’s just not something I can respect in an older man. And believe me, I’ve been around. If you’ve ever been to Thailand and seen Soi Nana, you will see thousands of old white men chasing pussy. It’s hard for me to respect that. I like pussy, but I ain’t gonna beg for it.
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The vast majority of married men (i.e., those men in abusive relationships where they are vicitimised by their partners), still see value in their relationships, as well.
These men cited remaining financially solvent, seeing their children, not being kicked out of a home and not being jailed on false abuse charges as key reasons they remain in their abusive relationships.
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In the News–
The current feminist version of male abuse is utterly absurd.
When people hear abuse they imagine the woman being beaten bloody regularly or at the least in constant fear of her bf or husband, cowering whenever he raises his voice at all due to her past experience w/him, and a slow or rapid escalation because “it never gets better” they claim.
This however isn’t remotely what it takes to be called abuse by feminists, is quite rare esp. outside of otherwise criminal and the some parts of the lower classes (yeah blacks do do a lot more per capita severely violent women abusing, but so do some whites). There are rare cases of severe abuse of this kind up the SES outside of gangsters who have money but they’re just that, rare.
Instead feminists, while they want you to think of the above as being what abuse really is or will soon become if the man isn’t arrested, have defined abuse which they consider always very serious and inevitably about to severely escalate, without convincing evidence at all of the later, to include a single male open handed not very hard slap that causes no injury, possibly even grabbing her arms and slightly thereby scratching her to keep her from punching him or repeatedly slapping him in her feminist entitled and no consequence (for her) female fury, even just threaten to slap her back if she doesn’t stop doing it to him, and lying with no evidence about any of the above, if she just calls 911 upset. Then under feminist heavily lobbied law and guidelines to DAs they aren’t even supposed to drop the charges for months when she comes in a day or three later, and says she exaggerated it all, he never hurt her, never hit her, but they just yelled at each other and he treatened to throw her out. So she was furious. What she doesn’t say is that she repeatedly hit or hard slapped him over and over and he did grab her arms to stop her, cause she knows or senses that under theoretically gender neutral (in some ways only and it’s mostly a thin scheerade) it’s possible that such a fuller explanation could land her in trouble now that it’s already in front of the DA. While it would be very unlikely to if he had called 911 and told the truth as opposed to saying e.g. she was threatening him w/a kitchen knife.
so in short you can’t trust what feminists journalists or many researchers say about divorce whatsoever, because the former do lie and intentionally mislead all the time for what they consider to be the greater (feminist) good and progress, the later may less frequently outright lie in their actual research, though it’s happened frequently or “mistakes” have repeatedly been made which were massive and crucial for major feminist divorce property and support laws, they sure do regularly create misleading studies that seem to mean something they don’t to influence policy.
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Musicians esp. with a following and even more w/a big following do pull girls like mad, and do it from young ages to old ones, if they’re still pulling audiences (and to some considerable extent even after they aren’t, though then they’ve usually got to go quite a bit older in girls.)
It’s just that they aren’t remotely the only guys who aren’t mega rich, who can pull hot girls 20+ years younger.
Too much of a gap though when the woman is both very hot and quite to very sexually driven may work ok for a fling or a 4 year relationship, but as the guy get’s past 60 even if he’s fit and all systems go and vital there, and at a 25y gap she’s then 35 and at perhaps her horniness peak aside from the effects recent childbirth if that’s the case might still be having, to continue for another 5 or even 10 years as her T level rises relative to her estrogen one which is receding a lot, she’s gonna be really, really tempted to cheat on him in our current feminist sociopolitical and legal environment. A very good/tough prenup will help him alot if he has beaucoup bucks especially, esp. if she knows he’s got his eyes open. But really I think that much of a gap is too much for very long term or lifetime into the guys older years, unless she’s not so sexually driven, is super loyal, and anti feminist. A 20 year gap can probably work long term though if the guy’s got enough going on, and she’s a good girl anti feminist, even though a very sexual one. 15 year gaps can definitely work very long term if the guys got it going on and takes real good care of himself (and so does she). Seems to me anyway.
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Jacko,
I don’t have to go to Thailand and chase ‘young pussy’ and I never will. However, I also don’t ‘go to clubs trying to score’. I hang out at taverns, gallery openings, parties, and so on, with friends. I genuinely have fun and I meet interesting people. Some of those people I sleep with, some nights I go home alone and happy. Some of those people I actually date. Nobody views me as some pathetic old dude chasing young tail because that’s not who I am; I’m just an interesting, sexual being. Women pursue ME or a fast mutual flirtation builds, I’m never viewed as a pursuer.
I suppose I’d be singing sour grapes if I had a shriveled up nutsack.
I love my single 40s. Much happier than my married 30s.
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NEWFLASH: Lying whore falsely accuses rich athlete of sexual assault
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_roethlisberger_investigation
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anoukange
Oh yeah. 😉
btw, I checked you blog to see if you responded to my latest in our converstation on the French movie “The Lover” — but see it’s newly protected. Quelled domage!!
(Are you giving out passwords or something to some, like, um, maybe me?)
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“A buddy of mine once remarked that banging a chick who had had three kids was like riding the log flume wearing a suit made out of eels.”
That is because they didn’t find a good kegel exercise instructor such as myself.
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This is in response to Doug, a-way-up-thurr:
Re: Male scale of hotness and mate potential, from the LIL perspective (be aware, the LIL perspective does not represent, or even pretend to represent, the views of all/most women)–
When it comes to guys’ attractiveness, I have a definite 0-10 scale. On the 0-1 end you have guys like David Spade, Steven Tyler from Aerosmith, Marilyn Manson, and Ronaldhino. Russell Crowe is a 2. Brad Pitt is like a 7.5. David Boreanaz is an 8. Tyson Beckford and Tyrese are like 8.5/9’s. Etc.
That said, that doesn’t mean that I rate those guys as that level of “attractiveness,” necessarily. Or, well, if I were a normal girl, I wouldn’t. If I were a normal girl, guys’ looks count for so little that I would almost always take Russell Crowe over Brad Pitt for Russell’s masculine/alphaness. Of course, most normal girls would RATHER have a Russell Crowe/Brad Pitt hybrid (where the guy is MORE attractive than Russell but LESS unmanly than BRAD), but if forced to choose (and let’s face it, they’re always forced to choose), would take the manliness over the physical attractiveness. That’s not to say girls are unaware of an objectively sexy man, it’s just to say that most of them don’t care.
I do, totally, and I would never touch Russell Crowe, not even if he were the most manliest of the manly men. Because he looks like he’s been hit in the face with a pan. But that’s me, it’s not most girls.
Guys seem to go the opposite way, where they’ll take looks over other facets of personality any day. And they’ll attribute more positive personality facets (within reason) to the hotter girl, as well. Just like women will attribute more “physical attractiveness” qualities to more manly men. But when you break it down, she isn’t really sweeter or smarter, and he isn’t really hotter. But that doesn’t really matter, b/c that’s not what attractiveness is about, now, is it?
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Johndee–
I’m a giver, what can I say? 😉
Nice pussy move by the way, hiding behind a fake name…how alpha.
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Also, musicians tend to have high dexterity with their fingers….
SKILLS!
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Doug1,
I used to see guys, really much older (60 -70) with young women on their arms when I was travelling around Thailand and the Philippines. It’s quite normal there.
However, no matter how much they told me she loves them, I always felt it was probably all about a green card.
If old guys are banging young chicks in america, beyond a 20 year gap, I haven’t seen it.
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@Dragnet
also note Tigers “return” from domestic violence.
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Bhetti-
Just saw your comment-
“The same woman can view casual sex i.e. being easier as sleeping with a “douchebag”. It’s not a compliment; she’s disqualifying him from being her mate.”
Too true. Anyone who counts, you prolong the sex as much as humanly possible…it becomes all about the pace, the time it takes, the unsaid, the slight touches in passing, the ache….the romance.
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Sat Nite match Date updates:
>35 yrd old, 9 Model text cancels 1 hr before 7pm date. Older women never learn.
I had 1 pm 2hr. date with 26, 8.5 Ukrainian babe; [after week with 6 dates, 1 bang] so game is nuclear at this point.
Call her in seconds [I have double-booked a date with 8.5 (9+ in person) 25 yr. old at 10pm; thanks US Air for tip]
Laughing into call: “Hope you feel better”‘ she offers up a fake sorry. I return with ultra confident, no bother “I have some ‘unruly guests’ coming @ 10”. A bit cryptic and literary; her tone changes; keep call to 4 min’s (talked 1 hr b4, last week); she gets the message.
Meet the 25 yr. old.
She causes a stir at first lounge with competing women: multiple 35+ SATC type NYC women drinking cosmos and all dressed up at large tables…with no men.
We split after 1 drink and saw a local church & graveyard in Soho 1 block away…my standard default date tour near my pad. Church is romantic at nite; and cemetary pushes their vampire/goth buttons…sure enough she was shivering and i move in with hug.
Offered to show her my apt patio/atrium across st. and stars from my apt roof-toop….she hesitates…I state its public, has cameras, and some chicks giggle/stumble out from my lobby..checking her out.
She says OK. On roof, start making out. She needs to use the bathroom, down to my apt; quick tequila shot; quick family B&W photos tour review on my walls. Back out to another lounge across the street till 3am, in my lap, making out, etc.
I am 40+
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@BeerMonkey,
Ahh, I see you are divorced. *Ouch*. Is it true what they say about family court? I’ve heard men get absolutely ass-raped there. Some divorced guys I met say it took them a decade to recover. Then again, everyone is different.
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OT: how do you gently get rid of a girl you banged, who happens to be a bit mentally deranged? Act beta?
I scurred.
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http://natebloch.com/thedoctorvisit.html
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Jacko,
A 60-70 year old man is usually loved by his wife of many years, his children and grandchildren, not some Thai hooker. For some reason I actually feel a little sorry for those guys, they’re delusional. For a man to be a player much past the age of 35 just starts to seem a little pathetic to me. You are only 40 years old and although that is not young it is certainly not old. I can’t imagine it would be that hard to meet someone of quality. You need to be realistic about age and attractiveness, though.
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@Laura,
I wholeheartedly agree. I was trying to state I thought it meaningless for a man above a certain age to be seeking to obtain ‘notches’ on his belt. It seems like an empty pursuit to me, that’s all. I did that for much of my 20’s and 30’s, and look forward to something more meaningful.
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http://www.spic-int.jp/brand/tornado_mart/collection.html
You couldn’t wear this brand if you were fat. I’m not huge but seeing as an “L” in this brand is a regular Japanese “M” (about an XXS in the US I guess) means you tend to focus on slimming down at the gym.
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Wacko Jacko,
Your subsequent post even does more to prove that you are a eunuch. You claim to be a “man”, and we have no way of knowing for sure, but your posts are dripping with estrogen. A 40 year old man who continues to bang his fat, ugly wife even though he is no longer attracted to her is pathetic in my opinion. Marriage is nothing but a religious/social construct. A man will stay in such an arrangement only if he has no options or he has too much to lose.
You appear to have numerous issues. You are carrying around some sort of repressed sexual guilt and are clearly ashamed of being a man. It may come from a particularly strict upbringing. It is obviouos that you have been figuratively castrated by feminism. But, your problems seem deeper. Do a search for BPA. Your low testosterone may be a result of the abundance of female hormones in the environment. Either way, you are not a normal “man”, I use that term loosely. If you are happy leading the life of a eunuch, that is your choice. Your testosterone levels dropping off precipitously after 40 is not normal. How sad that this loss of masculinity is something that men crow about with pride these days.
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Well Adrian my “man”, it´s actually quite disheartening to see people like you applying typical feminist shaming techniques to a man who isn´t ruled by his dick.
In fact “studs” like you and Roissy are ultimately the main enablers of feminism. You provide the ultimate service to the “movement”. Namely fulfilling their dark bad boy cravings and then affirm the feminist “all men are pigs” belief by dropping them like the shits they have let themselves become.
Just don´t pretend you´re actual men, or even “so called alphas”. Leave that to guys who worry about better things than how to lure pussy and how to behave so pussy is happy.
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I try to avoid confrontations online because, let’s face it, what is the point of online machismo? We both know we are not going to throw down here.
Who ever said anything about banging a fat, ugly wife? I certainly never did. Read my posts. I look forward to having an actual relationship. Is that not masculine? Up until quite recently, I lived the same life as Roosh, only I was in Asia, not Brazil. I lived to score as much as possible. It’s only recently I’ve slowed down. How is that being a eunuch?
You’ve completely lost me on these psychological guilt issues. I am simply saying I am happy no longer being a slave to my cock. I actually want to like the woman I am fucking now, and to actually get to know her. Are you telling me that this means I am turning gay? Please explain.
Nonetheless, I admit I don’t know everything. You may be right, maybe those guys in their 40’s and 50’s going to nightclubs and chasing pussy are the cool ones. Who knows?
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Adrian, we all get old.
Back when I used to care for old people, the saddest guys in the home were the ones who didn’t have any children or grandchildren coming to visit at all.
Sometimes it was because they were stupid in their youth, and married the wrong woman, who raised their kids to be ungrateful and cold.
Sometimes it was because they thought they had all the time in the world, and that some woman would be interested in shagging them after a diaper change.
Sometimes it was because they simply outlived their loved ones.
If you plan to be old an alone, please make a lot of money. At least make enough for a trip to Europe.
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Adrian,
It is a fact the both men’s and women’s libidos decrease with age. The fact that a few of you are getting so upset about Jacko stating this simple fact is rather odd.
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A40YOV, hold on there. My first impression of Roissy and some of the guys here was pretty similar to yours, but you have to undestand that this is a blog, and it’s really all about the perspective.
Regardless of some of the circle jerking and butt kissing that gives the impression that this is a “public forum”, this is about one guy’s approach and what he’s learned on his path. He doesn’t knock others who choose a different path, so long as they do so with their eyes open. Even when he does veer close to that, you must always remember that it is personal, and that he is speaking from his own heart and mentality, not speaking for all men everywhere.
This isn’t to justify his veering, just to put it in perspective.
Whatever each of our perspectives may be, they all come together to form a section of human consciousness. It isn’t the whole, but it is valid because it is real, or psychologically real…as is the feminist consciousness.
So you are welcome not to agree because the one here isn’t as hard line in ideology as feminism. So whatever shaming goes on is just one guy speaking his mind. Consider where he learned it from, and the fact that we’ve all here been negatively touched by the feminist ideologues in one way or another. So it’s good looking out, but don’t take it to mean more than it does.
Though they wouldn’t probably want to word it this way, guys like Roissy and Adrian have kind of given up. Women love to gripe about a shortage of good men, but when you think about whose behavior has changed most for the worse, what we really have is a shortage of good women. In the west, we’ve gotten to the point where it’s more than a shortage. We are seriously lacking a critical mass of skilled and willing motherers.
Can you really blame a guy for saying “fuck it” and just living for the day? If a guy has charismatic abilities that in the past would have scored him at least a nice trophy, but today just get him skanks, what is he supposed to do? Change brains?
I have some theoretical answers, but not really enough data to tell them that they should be walking a different path than the one they’re on.
If you have some answers then please elaborate. I am positive that there are many young, male professionals who would love to hear what you suggest.
I hope you don’t mistake my tone for sarcasm here or believe that I’m asking rhetorical questions. I would really like to have what to tell my male friends and relatives who are out there searching for someone who may not exist anymore. I don’t know what to tell them. The stuff that used to work, doesn’t anymore.
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Jacko,
Amicable split, dissolution not divorce, no kids, life is fantastic.
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Unfortunately, this strategy relies on prediliction and talent.
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Strange that you’d bend this issue to wrap around a core of self esteem.
If you are over 40 and have nothing to prove, but still have as a central life focus libido, then good on you.
I’d say you have issues if you think it’ an issue.
Yes
That’s fine. But I don’t respect it more, necessarily. Both can be devoid of passion or intense communion. Both can be sublime ecstatic power. Without strong libido, I respect neither.
Your writing reeks of a dim view of sexuality. You have not joined the sacred with the profane, but remain deeply divided. And here you preach your division.
It’s sick.
Here I agree with you. A lot of the sex tourist crowd are sad. But not all. Most of the sex tourists are young and handsome and get plenty back home. Most of them. The fat sad drunkards are simply the most obvious. The younger punters are out on the dance floor, or scubadiving with their paid for dates.
But you take the most sordid possible aspect of libido and put that forth as the reason why you are glad to be done with it.
Sick.
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“In fact “studs” like you and Roissy are ultimately the main enablers of feminism. You provide the ultimate service to the “movement”. ”
Manginas; those who blame men for the stupidity of women are the biggest enablers of feminism.
“Namely fulfilling their dark bad boy cravings and then affirm the feminist “all men are pigs” belief by dropping them like the shits they have let themselves become.”
Where were these enablers before?
Or was it because the women who weren’t getting any turned to “all men are pigs” who would rather fuck better looking women.
Just as some men turn to “all women are whores” when they see women banging all the so”pigs” which is infact logical and deserving.
As for feminist logic:
Why do women drink themselves into whorehouse?
coz Men are pigs.
Why do women party all night with thugs?
coz Men are pigs.
Why don’t women marry till they are no better than hags?
coz Men are pigs.
Why are women still not equal to men?
coz Men are pigs.
Why are there manginas and PUAs in this world?
coz Men are pigs.
Why are there men in this world?
coz Men are pigs.
Why do men do what they do?
coz Men are pigs.
Piggy envy eh?
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Laura
You are guilty, very guilty indeed, of missing Jackos point and of harboring cruel blindness towards the plight of most men.
Females can nowadays get their libidinal needs met – filled up to the brim – rather easily if they are not too moral or too ugly. Thus, they can go thru life without ever knowing the pangs of unmet sexual hunger.
What percent of guys proceed thru life without ever experiencing unmet sexual needs? You cannot see this distinction or you want to not see it. Either way, shame on you.
Your blindness on this point condemns you to the dungeon of the manosphere; locked in behind bars with twisted man-hating skanks and butch lesbians.
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If you really want young pussy, become a college professor. I’ve been fucking young students for the past twenty years. I’m 48 now, and still go for my students who are in their late 20s (I teach at an urban university with a lot of older students). Easy pickings… And a new crop every year.
By the way, if you do this, when you are around other faculty, be sure to spout all the PC crap about the need to avoid “power differentials” in relationships, etc. No one will ever know that you are secretly plowing through hot young things on a regular basis.
I figure I have two more years of “the life,” and then I’ll marry the smartest and sexiest former student I can find.
Then, I’ll be done…
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See, it is not the strength of ones libido at any given point in life that determines ones happiness – it is the degree of satisfaction of that particular need that one gets that really matters for happiness and peace of mind.
Laura did not see that because – Laura apparently cannot see that sort of all important distinction. Because it has to do with actual sex-getting-off instead of relationship power dynamics&torture…
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Johnny Cash, June Carter Cash, and me. We are all just white trash hill-billies who somehow got a strong neck-grip on the tap-root of American musical culture. IOWs, We are not confused about the basics. And there is the gun thing…
The obamanation may or may not survive but we will.
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Wow. I am in agreement with Adrian but I was going to be more diplomatic with Wacko.
What happened was I saw Wacko’s posts last night via mobile after I had stupidly decided to leave my laptop at work for the evening (thus going 15 hours without the ability to comment).
I was waiting for a non-mangina to respond but 15 hours went by before Adrian finally responded.
Where the Hell are the real men here? Is Adrian the only one?
Jacko verified the theory that sour grapes about men whose nut sacks haven’t shriveled is what makes many older men turn against their own kind and support insecure older women in their shaming of older men who date younger women.
He had no business saying he felt was in the position to “not respect” guys his own age who scored or men who are smart enough to go overseas to get laid with 18 year old 10s.
This sour grapes results in laws like IMBRA and VAWA.
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@Jacko
If your own nut-sack has shriveled, it gives you no moral right to suck up to insecure feminists in saying you “don’t respect” those of us your age who still date 18 year old honeys. You have to be aware that the feminists are passing laws about this in addition to pushing cougarism with this:
1) Cougarism is fuel-injected because of the idea that guys like you have lost their testosterone so why should we date these limp dicks. Thanx asshole for voluntarily saying you think all men over 40 should be limp dicks.
2) Feminism seeks to pauperize men in divorce so they cannot get a “replacement wife” or “trophy wife” (from the pov of the bitter ex-wife).
3) IMBRA is the first law predicated officially on the basis that “Men who date younger women largely do so because they want to control and abuse someone”.
You had me slightly agreeing with you when you said that you felt in your 40s like “slowing down” and not going to bars and discos “all the time”. I assumed you were like me in that I want to get my sleep on a weeknight and, in Eastern Europe, the discos don’t get started until 11PM which is too late for a man serious about his career. You could have done well saying that you wanted to push more for quality instead of quantity (many guys over 40 start seeking only 9s and 10s, like me, leaving the 7s and 8s to the young tykes who would fuck anyone).
I thought Adrian was initially too harsh, but he seemed to have correctly judged that your initial comments of “it is OK to have a shriveled nut sack” were indicative of a pro-feminist attitude.
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@Laura It is getting tiresome to see you hang around here looking for older men who have lost their testosterone and who might be looking for a 35 year old to have a permanent LTR with. You are married. Why obsessively hang out here hoping to meet guys like Jacko who admit to falling T levels?
News Flash, some men in their 40s give up trying to score 10s in their twenties. News at 11.
Jacko is not someone for you to divorce your husband for and marry yourself. That he has lost his testosterone and supports the radical feminist notion that “men who seek younger women are pathetic”…is not something that brings anything to the dating table but a little false security for the older woman he’s rationalizing to.
Remember that Jacko is already used to going to Thailand and hanging out in the prostitute areas. He is possibly protesting too much about it being bad to do that (while booking his next trip as I write).
Jacko needs to see a doctor for his falling T levels or at least stop talking sour grapes about men his own age who still have a pair.
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Make no mistake: It is a pro-feminist attitude for a man over 40 to be happy about losing his testosterone and happy about no longer being interested in sex with younger women.
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And it becomes a radical feminist (or religious conservative) attitude when the same man (like Adrian I use that term lightly to describe those proud of losing their testosterone) says he feels he needs to not respect guys his own age who still date younger women.
Doing that is just one step away from being a White Knighter politician who wants to give feminists and old church ladies every piece of legislation they want.
Using feminist ploys like “men who TRY to date younger women are pathetic” rather than “men who successfully date younger women are pathetic” is gender treason.
Dissing the idea of dating non-feminist foreign women is pure Marxist feminism.
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What really ticks me off here is not Jacko’s attitude and the fact that Laura seems to hang out here hoping to meet guys who don’t date women younger than herself. Let such people find and marry each other.
What gets me is that, in this huge world with 1 Billion people using the Internet and 3000 viewers per day coming to Roissy’s blog with this post being the first one on the list , I was stuck reading the comments via mobile phone, unable to respond while I had to wait 15 hours for Adrian to come back or for myself to get to work in the morning in order to interrupt a pro-feminist praising of men who lose their testosterone and a bashing of men who date younger women, including Asian women.
More men like Adrian need to be cruising the Internet ready to slam the feminists who criticize men over 40 for still having a pair. As I have shown above, our rights are at stake because the #1 thing that drives feminism is the desire to stop men from dating younger women.
More men over 40 have to stand up for their moral right to have sex with younger adult women. If 3000 people per day read Renegade’s blog…why aren’t more real men standing up for this right?
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There is nothing wrong with a man wanting to settle down in an LTR in his 40s (or his 30s for that matter) so long as he has chosen someone (as opposed to having been chosen and tamed by his second choice) whom he knows for sure he can remain sexually attracted to the rest of his life and whom he knows for sure will not die of cancer or car accident leaving him in a position to have to game a new sexually attractive partner.
I was 40 with a partner my age who died of cancer. I was dating someone older than Laura but she died.
My reaction that was to start dating women 20+ younger.
Any older man in an LTR can find himself back on the market in a heartbeat (cancer can kill a woman in less than 12 months), in which case he better hope the feminists and evangelists haven’t made it illegal or much more difficult for him to date younger women (for instance, new laws can make it impossible to lie about his age on a dating site and domestic background checking of dating site users is just one high-profile murder away from getting passed by Congress).
What is wrong is if this guy starts saying “I don’t respect” the guys who admit they haven’t reached that point where they know they can *permanently* give up on gaming and dating the world’s best looking women.
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Oh, and the “Notch on Bedpost” rhetoric is mangina talk that completely and totally misrepresents how men feel about women and sex – Adrian was correct to question if Jacko was really male.
Men want sex not bragging rights.
Sex is about sex. We want it with the best looking women, who are often but not always 18-25. We go for it. Period.
It doesn’t matter to us if we tell anyone we got it. In most cases, we don’t.
No notch rhetoric needed. No feminist theories about our wanting sex to “control younger women” needed.
Men who lose their testosterone don’t need to rationalize and show sour grapes by saying their own younger behavior was wrong if they had been getting good sex.
If Jacko wants to regret that he had no sex or bad sex when he was younger or in Asia and that he hadn’t found the right young woman to marry anywhere…that wouldn’t require being proud of having gone limp in the dick.
If he got an STD with a Bangkok prostitute, that is no reason to diss the idea of dating upper middle class Asian women and to be proud of losing his testosterone. It just means he screwed up when he was younger and should chose higher quality young women more carefully.
Also, this idea of having one LTR is ridiculous for most alphas. Modern polygamy means having an MLTR (Multiple Long Term Relationship) or what Renegade has called a harem. This is done by having a girlfriend in several cities at once where the cities are within a 4 hour drive from each other.
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Rum, it’s a plight when a guy is trying to find a mother for his future children.
It’s a hobby when he’s just looking for a hole for hands free masturbation.
“Most men” if you’re talking about western men, are just butthurt that the new feminist order didn’t bring them as much casual sex with hot chicks as the television promised them. When they find out that they nor women are generally unique or special snowflakes, and that the laws of nature aren’t going to change no matter who promised them they would, they feel disappointed and ultimately inadequate.
Men’s needs will surely go unmet when they refuse to be men, just like women’s needs go unmet when they refuse to be women. That’s just life.
“Sheep get sheared.”
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Mind you, I’m speaking in general terms. As individuals, guys who do realize that there’s a problem, and do fit in the plight category, have to get creative about how to deal with the shortage of motherly women. If they do, they’ll do fine.
Life doesn’t always come out perfectly, but you sure do increase your chances if you’re willing to think out of the box. If what you’re doing isn’t getting your real needs met, try something new.
The proportion of guys whose sexual needs aren’t getting met, it seems to me, don’t really know what their needs are. They just think they know things based on their programming.
Women can’t help them with this once they’re already grown because women can’t really full relate to it. I accept things as they are, but there’s no way for me to truly relate to a guy feeling an actual need for casual sex, despite the feminist agenda to turn us into men.
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@Laura Adrian was upset with Jacko for saying that everyone should disrespect men who don’t go impotent on schedule, although Jacko’s most pro-feminist comments came out only after Adrian told him he shouldn’t be proud of lower t levels and should see a doctor.
It is OK to stay home on a weeknight but not OK to generally give up trying to meet the best looking, most intelligent women possible. If Jacko is implying that a 25 year old 10 wouldn’t stay with him and would only be another “notch on his bedpost” if he attempted to get her, then he has very low self esteem and clearly resents the men his age who really are bedding 25 year old 10s.
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The Beta is strong in Doug.
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Has anyone watched or read about the reality show Daisy of Love where a former Bret Michaels groupie seeks “true love”. I’m wondering which rock are the dudes interested in a serious relationship with the skank crawling from. She’s not even very pretty but a horse-faced, aging, suspiciously heavily made-up peroxide blonde with huge visible tattoos all over her upper body. Looks like a washed-up porn star and probably fucks like one.
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Laura said.
“A 60-70 year old man is usually loved by his wife of many years, his children and grandchildren, not some Thai hooker. For some reason I actually feel a little sorry for those guys, they’re delusional. For a man to be a player much past the age of 35 just starts to seem a little pathetic to me. You are only 40 years old and although that is not young it is certainly not old. I can’t imagine it would be that hard to meet someone of quality. You need to be realistic about age and attractiveness, though.”
A little sad? how so? let me tell you the 40 year old player is DEFINATELY happier than the married guy, heck even if he was single and celebate he’d still be better off. The married guy could easily end up at 60-70 alone through no fault of his own or with kids that don’t even want to associate with him. Being 60-70, financially ruined and seperate from your family is sad Laura, lets get that straight.
A simple case of projection really, being unmarried and childless at age 35 would make YOU sad….you realise that and so project that idea onto men. Sorry but we don’t have maternal instincts or the same biological clocks. The paternal instinct in many men is pretty much just the sex drive, The drive to procreate. It’s quite hilarious and simple really, but i am fulfilling my paternal instinct even when i jizz into my right hand or a damn sock and it feels gooooooood.
Why do you think the church has silly rules on masturbation, contraception, homosexuality, drugs etc. It’s not just “immoral” it’s beause men engaging in these behaviours happily go along life not giving a shit about women, kids and family. And the fact is women, kids and family is fucked without men. You might think aging bachelors are sad, but i think aging whores who spent their twenties fucking around and now looking for the quick fix are even sadder. I’ll retain my right to my “sadness” if it means i don’t have to be part of some aging harpie’s ACTUAL sadness. If You want to convince these bechelors to marry try supplying them a steady stream of virginal young cuties. I hate it when women try and convince us it’s men that want marriage….ever heard of bachelor tax? Im afraid it’s always been well known by men of any intellect that it’s us guys who had to be coerced into marriage, and thats even when the rules of the game were much more favorable for us.
There are loads of guys out there who have recieved pretty much zero female attention and interest for the first 25-30 years of their life. You are going to have trouble convincing these guys that they need any one woman for the last 20, some of them will be that desperate, a lot of them are smarter and more attractive than that. Like Jacko said it only gets easier to say no to women as you get older.
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Once a man over 40 rationalizes that he is OK with not trying to get twenty-somethings (saying he is glad to sit at home at night alone), he can become the worst of White Knighters in helping to get feminist laws passed.
Look at http://www.OnlineDatingRights.com to see that Texas and Hawaii have joined the ranks of those who want to unconstitutionally background check men who wish to date younger foreign women. Texas men can be the biggest manginas out there.
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Markku, next you’ll tell us that the world’s biggest gang bang was all about trying to win the heart of the woman at the center of it.
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@Dilbert
next you’ll tell us that the world’s biggest gang bang was all about trying to win the heart of the woman at the center of it
couldn’t have put it better myself.
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A few comments in no particular order:
– I’ve got a suspicion that Jacko is a girl pretending to be a male commenter. Anyway, as to his (“his,” to give him the benefit of doubt) points about the calming down of male libido at forty; I’m around that same age. My observation? I feel like my T levels are higher than they were in my 20s. Whether or not that’s a lab-verifiable clinical fact, I do not know. But subjectively, I feel like that’s the case.
– Nicole is worth paying attention to. In the midst of a lot of abstractions and occasional forays to naturalistic surrealism, she does bury valuable insights. She and Rum are very similar though Rum is much more succinct.
– There is a foreign-woman obsessed strain in MRA. In a way that’s understandable, but unchallenged, it fosters a locust mentality: American women are bad, so let’s ruin foreign women. While I’m overall very sympathetic to MRA, I couldn’t give a piss about their whining about IMBRA. Learn game, fix your own women.
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“American women are bad, so let’s ruin foreign women.”
This implies that US males are bad as well. Otherwise nobody is ruining anyone else.
“Learn game, fix your own women.”
Some of us saw James Bond films when we were young and determined that all the world’s women were fair game. Take “The Spy Who Loved Me”…it permanently ingrained the idea of Russian women as an ideal 14 years before the Soviet Union fell.
Life is too short to be patriotic about sex and it is especially too short to try to “fix” women in a region where they are less friendly and less well educated than elsewhere (Moscow State grads are way better educated than Harvard grads, and they’ve been trained to disdain Marxism for obvious reasons – their country, the largest in the world, was devastated by that)
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Ya, really. What a load.
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Also, for those who have limited their target audience to American-women only, a domestic version of IMBRA could come out of Obama’s Congress any day now.
It would say that all men who use dating sites need to be background checked, period. Strict penalties for lying about one’s age on a dating site can soon follow (the cougars might stop this but only in their own interest).
The Supreme Court would simply have to uphold the idea that the Commerce Clause gives Congress the right to interfere with the Right of Assembly of individuals if they use a for-profit third party to meet. Before the feminists took over both political parties, this idea was unheard of.
The biggest feminist shaming word is “whine” – used to describe what anti-feminists do when new laws are passed.
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The miniscule number of American women who date or marry foreign women will not have any measurable impact. The larger point is that a lot of MERA types are angry betas who idealize foreign women. May of those guys snap to reality when their Filipina wife cleans them out in court or their Ukrainian wife bangs a Russian while he’s at work.
Not all American women are she-lawyers, not all are fat or overentitled. And failure with American women portends failure with a foreign one because Beta is an internationally recognized character.
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“The miniscule number of American men ” is what it was supposed to say.
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Because most the guys reading this site are younger and don’t want added competition for poon from older men with more money and life experience.
Asked. Answered.
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MERA = MRA (typo)
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Betas are everywhere being 85% of American men so of course they are well represented among those who actually *marry* foreign women instead of just dating them. There is a difference between those who are stupid enough to marry *any* woman and live inside the USA and those who date and have sex with foreign women.
When I’ve lived in the USA this past decade, I’ve dated women 20 years younger and it took 2 months on average to get a 9. In Eastern Europe I date women 25-30 years younger and it takes a week on average to get a 9.
Game is the same.
One can make the same comparison between Boston and Key West or even Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head.
Different regions offer the same man with the same game a qualitative and quantitative difference in outcomes.
Why? The conditioning of the female by a local culture plays a massive role in how she will react toward men, notwithstanding that female hypergamy is the same almost everywhere.
Life is too short not to make the best decision possible for maximum results.
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And of course there is nothing wrong with a 40 year old who is experiencing “failure with American 19 year old 10s” to change venue so he is experiencing success with Russian 19 year old 10s.
It is totally bogus logic to say failure with one portends failure with the other.
In fact, what that logic does is place the blame for the failure on the man.
QED: that logic is feminist and is the prime reason why IMBRA got passed by manginas in Congress.
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I love it how supposed “men” blather on in the internet but don’t really explain what they are doing in their personal lives to make it better for themselves.
Show how you are showing leadership in your life instead of whining about how feminists are doing you wrong, IMBRA, this that the other, and whatever else is going on and how unfair it is or whatever. Please. I’m a man. It’s kind of embarrassing.
Just the act of bitching is beta.
I wonder how many “men” who complain about not getting a woman or getting a date are really in any shape to attract a woman. How many of them are grossly overweight, poor health, bad teeth, no manners, no class or have some sort of personality problem.
I can understand the anger. Believe me I can. But all this anger turns everyone off, including women. And the people who are not turned off by it are angry themselves….think about i.
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“American women are bad, so let’s ruin foreign women.”
This implies that US males are bad as well. Otherwise nobody is ruining anyone else.
By definition, a woman is ruined by a man’s touch unless he marries her. By “ruined” I mean her value as a wife and mother. Mystery’s slogan to “leave them better than you found them” is an oxymoron.
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Wow. I really hit a nerve. First of all Jacko didn’t say he was impotent, he said he wasn’t as ruled as much by his sex drive as he used to be. Those are two totally different things. I’m sure everybody is different, but I think it’s generally true that men’s and women’s libidos decrease with age. You still may be a sexual being (I assume everyone is) , the desire is just not as strong.
Realist,
I don’t think all bachelors are sad. I know plenty of people who are not married and don’t have children who are perfectly happy. Many men still do derive pleasure from their children even if their initial desire to have children was not as strong as it is in a woman. I would agree that many single men may be happier than some married ones. You are also right about the fact that a 60-70 man could be divorced and may not have a good relationship with his children anyway.
Jerry,
I have never been to Bangkok so I have no first hand experience, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that a very young woman with a much older man is often with him because she is being paid to be there. As a woman I’m not sure if I would really enjoy someone’s company if I was having to pay them, but men are different. A lot of men don’t seem to have a problem with this type of arrangement. I’m sure they know the deal. I have no idea about all these acronyms you keep throwing around so I am not going to comment on them.
As far as women being interested in older men, of course they are. I think it’s totally natural and normal for women to be with older men. However, by about the age of 35-40 men are starting to lose their raw physical appeal. They can certainly compensate this loss with other things, but to think they are going to be some big time lady’s man with much younger women seems a little absurd.
Rum,
I have been with the same person for over 15 years. I’m sure I’ve missed out on some passionate affairs because of this, however I’m not unhappy with how my life has turned out. I am sympathetic to men who feel like they were ignored by women when they were younger and want to make up for it now. I say go ahead, but you still need to be realistic, you are getting older also. Because you guys can have children at any age you don’t have nearly the pressure that women have on them. I’d say you’re pretty lucky in that respect. If I was a man I think I would wait until I was at least my early 30’s to get married. Of course then I would need to find the right person.
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In fact, different bars in DC will offer the same man different outcome rates.
Once a man understands the power of venue change, he doesn’t just switch bars in DC but goes to where things are really optimal (factoring in good food, fresh air, lots of money to be made, great local dentists, etc).
Most Americans falsely believe the “lots of money to be made” factor is best in the USA. The Internet has made living in the USA much less necessary. Medical and dental care in the US can be sub-standard and overpriced (one can fly back to the US for surgery if one wants). Pesticides and hormones are relatively unregulated in the US food system.
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@TheRealist:
This could only be written by someone who doesn’t have children.
Whilst it is true, IME, that men don’t really get broody like women do, once men have their own kids and they know that the kids are their own, then a little switch goes off inside their head, which says ‘protect’, ‘support’, ‘sacrifice’.
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Yup, that all hold up to inspection.
The advantage to men in the East is that the learning curve is flatter. We get so much attention and opportunities, by all sorts, that we get our accelerated education from the school of hard knocks by being dragged against the rugged road of street smarts.
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My first instinct is to cry “Nonsense!”, but I respect most of your posts and do understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I’m still biting my lip though. Urrghhsrghhhg. Internal struggle.
Nonsense! I’ve improved many a girl.
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@Xsplat
He does say a lot that is cool but he has a big stick up his butt about dating foreign women and he is directly insulting you for having moved to Indonesia.
He doesn’t understand a little about what he is saying on this topic. What you just said “passes inspection” is standard boilerplate for the feminists when they decry US men dating overseas (not marrying).
Who but Victorian religious people make an issue of women anywhere being *ruined* by a man who doesn’t marry her?
And saying “a lot of MRAs are bitter betas”? 95% of the men in any Christian organization would be betas as well. Any group of American men will have a lot of betas in it. So what if 50% of men in the Men’s Rights Movement are betas? Half of PUAs are betas by their own admission.
A man who holds a job in the USA but can afford to fly to Moscow for the weekend is not necessarily “giving up” on the local Cleveland sluts nor the local Amish girls who might be worth marrying.
It is completely illogical to agree with the feminists that one has to exhaust all possible potential women inside the USA (and supposedly get rejected by them, even if they are only 7s) before one can be “respected” for traveling to absolutely fantastic countries like Russia or Japan where the same game gets better quantity and quality.
Plenty of alphas with MLTRs in the States fly overseas to date better (or badder) women for a long weekend.
It is a feminist hoax that men do this because they can’t get a date in the USA.
Think about that @PA: Why bang your head against a brick wall trying to argue the feminists are right about this?
The MRA movement, like the PUA phenom, is heavily alpha compared to Christian movements or other groups of American men. Betas ignore both MRA and PUA.
The same game does better in different venues so it is complete crap to play the macho idea that it is best to run game where the women are more feminist and less good looking and where quality results are not as frequent.
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Laura–
It’s generally true that men’t T levels slowly go down, but now necessarily their sex drives, which have a strong learned pleasure component after initially being almost entirely hormonally driven in males
If men stay in shape, keep muscle mass up, or even increase it in their 30s their T levels can go up for a twenties decline. It is true that most guys T levels are highest when late teens but it’s also true that most late teen guys aren’t that attractive to girls past the age of consent in any American state when they have other alternatives in the guys 20s they aren’t heavily socially shamed to avoid. (Anyone who has to be told that teen girls are extremely herd like creatures who are highly socially suggestible and subject to propaganda, is beyond hope.)
It’s simply not true that men in their 50s or for that matter 60s lose almost all their sex drive if they stay healthy, don’t get too fat or fat at all (getting fat does lower T and sex drive).
Women’s hormonal balance fluctuates much more dramatically. In general the more T she has in her compared to her estrogen and related hormonal levels, the higher will be her hormonally generated, as opposed to her pair bond maintaining or in some cases “learned addictive pleasure” sex drive.
When women’s fertility starts rapidly decreasing, usually around 35, but that can onset in the early 30s (and begins to some degree in her 20s), her T to E ratio becomes more elevated and she gets hornier. However the opposite together often with the effects of fat put on in pregnancy in lowering sex drive happen after a woman gives birth in many cases. The sooner she starts exercising afterwards particular w/weights to rebuilt muscle tone and loses weight, the sooner she’s likely to regain a sex drive. Culturally derived mental attitudes are important too though. If she feels she owes her husband no sex if she isn’t initially feeling it just cause she’s married to him (that world border on marital rape, a feminist invention, the feminists incredibly assert, in contravention of the basic age reasons men get married in the first place, from time immemorial), then she’s a whole lot less likely to reclaim her sex drive soon – or in some cases ever.
The thing though is this about women’s often increased sex drive from her mid thirties to her mid forties or later, until menopause. It often really is diminished towards her husband, who she’s been hopefully bonded to for a number of years, well over the 4 or so the evo psych people often talk about as the far range of a woman’s most intense “madly in love” feelings, with the range more like 18 months to then, or even as little as six, not from marriage but from first feeling that way esp. accompanied by intercourse. It takes considerable effort on her part, and a cultural mindset esp. after having children, to rekindle her feeling of not “madly, crazily in love”, a deeply bonded sexual attraction at times and when he’s seducing her, to her husband. That really often doesn’t happen with the messages to American women to “follow their feelings” or “follow their heart”, and that if you not feeling it as much as you once did for your husband, that’s almost certainly his fault. Is he “abusing you” (upsetting you in any way, which of course in typical American marriages by that standard as portrayed on e.g. American sitcoms women do far more to their husbands by nagging them, belittling them in little and bigger ways, insisting that they’re right if the husband want’s any semblance of domestic harmony and so on.
All in all Laura, it would seem an awfully poor bet for American men to marry an American woman rounding 30, with the alpha and alphaish cock carousel she’s usually and approaching almost always if she waits that long been on if she’s anywhere above average in attractiveness, agree to have kids with her a couple of years later, and then five years after marriage w/two kids she has little interest in sex anymore with her husband. But after she loses the last of the pregnancy weight and goes on a gym program, and is now past 35, she finds other men are looking really attractive to her, some of them. And she’s hornier than ever, just not for her husband. And that must be mostly his fault. Her girlfriends are telling her she doesn’t owe him, hell no, not if she’s not fully happy with him. THe old messages about it’s a wife’s duty to give her husband best efforts sex, to start down that path at least and see what can once again develop, during periods when she isn’t feeling the urge so much are out. They’re replaced with the message that female affairs are fun and ultimately sexy, and show how sexy she still is. Absolutely nothing to be ashamed of .
And certainly nothing he can use against her in divorce court, when she divorces him after a year or two more of marriage in which she has a couple of affairs, one really sexually hot, and thought that guy won’t leave HIS wife and has kept it largely just sex though with warm affection (at least that’s what he knows), she has lost absolutely all desire to have sex with her husband and either forces herself once in a blue moon to keep him from getting too suspicious, and too irritable and angry, or doesn’t. But now she really does have to leave him. The love is gone, he couldn’t keep her happy or attracted enough, all kinds of things about him have been bothering her more and more, and she’s only got one life. So after going to marriage counseling after he begs her to not break up the marriage and do that to the kids (maybe even if he’s discovered the cheating – women rarely confess it), she goes to a marriage counselor with him, her idea, as one last effort. Really she’s doing it as a salve to her last remaining bits of conscience.
And then it’s divorce, she gets the kids which he rarely sees and the court says she is free to move across the country even to follow her new man that she’s now living with, preliminary she hopes to a new marriage. Meanwhile he has to give her the house he mostly or entirely paid for, to live in, what will definitely amount to well more than half his net accumulated wealth over hers during the marriage that she’s abandoning entirely due to her fault, child support for 2 kids that if he’s a strong earning in a high or fairly high tax state will usually amount to 40-50% and more of his after tax or take home earnings as feminist massively increased child support in the early 90s, which includes a stealth alimony component for her, and then often transitional or even long term or lifetime alimony for her as well.
So marriage in America today is now a lifetime or at least a damn long time commitment by him to support her and his family even when she stops giving him sex entirely or doing anythng else he wants in a wife, divorces him, and takes his kids, which she commits to absolutely nothing in return, as soon as she doesn’t feel like in marriage. Isn’t that about right?
No this isn’t theoretic. More than half of first time marriages end in divorce more than 2 to 1 filed for by women, and in the case of marriages w/minor kids, about 90% filed by women. The feminist story of the man abandoning his loyal and still deeply loving wife who may have aged but is still giving him frequent and best efforts sex, who has young kids at home, to marry a hot young trophy wife is very largely a myth, and happens in a very small part of divorces. Though those are the ones women have for decades and in fact more than a century most wanted to demonize and mischaracterize as the normal case, in order to justify their demands to be able to take the children in divorce routines w/his child support, and get half of his money no matter how great and now increasingly long term alimony as well. Never used to be the case before 50 years ago, and certainly didn’t when the facts didn’t meet the rare but sold by feminists as the usual case stereotype of his leaving her for no reason other than wanting a young hot trophy wife.
So Laura, living with a woman, though w/a cohabitation agree espec. if you’re gonna have kids is one thing, and something I agree most balanced men as the get to their later 30s if not before, and certainly by their 40s are gonna want to do. With one or a few until they find the right keeper.
But why Laura would any man who knows the score marry in America woman today, under American feminist imposed marriage 2.0 and it’s chances of survivial or survival in a way that provides long term good sex for him, and divorce 2.0, which will make him her indentured servant for decades anytime she decides to pull that trigger, for any reason?
Why Laura.
Men don’t marry. Don’t even remotely consider it without wanting children immediately and then only w/a prenup that mimicks the effects if/when she does abandon you and steal your kids, of living together w/kids.
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Xsplat, in an absolute sense, what I wrote is the pure truth. But there are caveats, because the real world is not a platonic absolute. Like the fact that most men don’t marry virgins and things turn out all right. And that it’s critical that you are the most alpha man your woman has ever been with. And that her past does not have too many men in it. And so on.
But no, you never improved any woman, unless your relationship was platonic or she forswore any other men in her future.
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I had the opportunity recently to bang a young woman half my age. She is good looking, nice body. But she being 20 years old I feel is too young.
I also have a friend, a former co-worker who lives in the Philippines who wants to introduce me to his wife’s very hot sister. She’s about the right age, 27 years old.
The point I was getting at was basically what Nicole read into it. Flesh is flesh, meat is meat, and we all need sex. But a mother to your children and someone you actually get along with is something different. A woman is a woman no matter where you find her, and if she senses you’re a player and banging other women on the side, she’ll walk away and if you’re married, she will clean you out.
Then again, if she senses you’re weak and loses her respect for you, she’ll walk away also. Hmmm, double screwed.
I will admit, I have taken a few years off the ‘playing’ lifestyle. I haven’t decided if I’ll go back, but I will know in the next of couple of years.
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Yes, any man who gets married with the current US laws dictating second class citizenship in marriage is an idiot. That most definitely includes any fool who marries a “mail order bride” (feminist term for “foreign woman who likes Americans and likes the idea of marriage”) and brings her back to the USA before knowing her for years.
The feminists use the standard disrespect for men who want to get married to falsely color all US men who date foreign women.
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Well, I’ve woken up womens sex lives. It’s hard for me to see that as anything other than an improvement.
I’ve been with girls for whom I was not their best, not their uber alpha. It didn’t diminish my time with them. My ego is not so fragile that I have to be the best the girl has ever had. I’m satisfied with being among the best. And even when I’m not among the best, because of poor chemistry, I’d rather be with a girl with fully functioning sexuality than a virgin who can’t fuck.
So for men like me, and I know I’m not unique in my views, certainly I’ve greatly improved some girls.
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There is a contingent of men who can’t fathom the variations of male sexual strategies, and assume all men prefer more chaste girls for long term bonding.
It ain’t so.
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And of course smart men overseas will sometimes use marriage-oriented dating sites to meet some wonderful 9s and 10s with a great attitude. That doesn’t mean the man wants to get married right away. Maybe he just wants to “ruin’ them. 😉
In any case, it is radical feminist to try to regulate that man with background checks just to say hello to someone.
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@GT
You are so far off base. You are saying men shouldn’t stop feminist lawmaking??
That is sick.
Go to @mensnews on Twitter. More than 3200 followers, mostly Christian women and GOP men.
There is a huge problem with IMBRA and what it means to your freedom to say hello to someone unregulated.
@Roissy: Step in here on this. I can handle my own but this sheer bullshit has to stop.
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Doug1,
Can you please provide a reference for this divorce stat you quoted:
” in the case of marriages w/minor kids, about 90% filed by women”
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@GT You seriously need to read what the men’s movement is all about.
Are you going to get married in ignorance of current laws?
Very few MRAs are not enjoying their own great social life.
And, asshole, IMBRA isn’t even being complied with.
It is the principle of it that matters.
And like Roissy spends less than an hour per week on his blog, MRAs spend less than an hour per month “educating” people (not “complaining” or “whining” as the feminists would say) about feminist lawmaking.
Start with http://www.GlennSacks.com and then check http://www.MensNewsDaily.com and http://www.onlinedatingrights.com
Even in this thread, you can read a lot about what I do in my personal life that has nothing to do with “complaining”. For one I don’t live in the USA. I live in Eastern Europe.
I don’t date less than 9s. Don’t have to. I don’t date less than 20 years younger. Don’t have to.
In the USA I can date 20 years younger. In Eastern Europe it goes to 25-30 years younger.
It is total Beta not to be aware of one’s diminishing rights in the USA however.
Smart guys can work around lawmaking.
But look what the feminists have done to marriage.
Are you just going to get married with the current laws?
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Well, I’ve woken up womens sex lives. It’s hard for me to see that as anything other than an improvement.
I’ve been with girls for whom I was not their best, not their uber alpha. It didn’t diminish my time with them. My ego is not so fragile that I have to be the best the girl has ever had. I’m satisfied with being among the best. And even when I’m not among the best, because of poor chemistry, I’d rather be with a girl with fully functioning sexuality than a virgin who can’t fuck.
So for men like me, and I know I’m not unique in my views, certainly I’ve greatly improved some girls.
xsplat, your counter to PA is all about what was good for you, not for them.
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Lurker, my counterpoint is that I suspect that there are men similar to me, who would prefer to be with a woman with fully awake sexuality rather than with a girl who can’t fuck, even if it means she was schooled by someone other than himself.
I thought that was clear, but I guess some people need the dots connected for them.
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I’ve said this many times on this board, but it seems some guys can’t face this truth.
There is a GENETIC predisposition to view girls as “unclean” if they have had many sexual partners. Only roughly 40% of men have that GENETIC predisposition.
Plenty of men are like me and don’t give a flying fuck if the girl is a virgin. We want them good at fucking.
Was that clear this time?
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I suspect that there are men similar to me, who would prefer to be with a woman with fully awake sxeuality rather than with a girl who can’t fsck,
I suspect that if happily matched, a young Amish woman lets out in full abandon of awakened sxeuality on her wedding night, no different that any other woman.
@Roissy: Step in here on this. I can handle my own but this sheer bullshit has to stop.
@Lolllzllzlzl Guy: Step in here on this. I can handle my own but this sheer bullshit has to stop.
(I kid Jerry, I kid. This IMBRA thing means a lot more to you than it does to me.)
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PA
Did you get the part about where I mention that I’ve woken up women’s sexuality?
Without that as a premise, nothing I said would make any sense. If you can’t accept that as a premise then there is nothing to discuss. If you do accept it as a premise then what you say does not jibe.
Women can suck at sex, until someone wakes their sex up. I know this for a fact, as I’ve seen it happen again and again and again.
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Women can suck at sex for 5 partners. They can go through 10, 15, 20 partners without even knowing that they could truly enjoy it. They can go through dozens and dozens without ever having an orgasm.
I’ve heard the same story so many times.
I’ve improved those girls.
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To Jerry Ertans:
I don’t care about marriage. I’m not getting married again, ever so I don’t care about it.
IMBRA seems to bother a lot of people for some strange reason and why do you care about what happends in the USA? How does IMBRA affect you?
And as far as Twitter, facebook, online dating…i don’t do any of that so it means nothing to me.
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I thought that was clear, but I guess some people need the dots connected for them.
You were definitely clear.
my counterpoint is that I suspect that there are men similar to me, who would prefer to be with a woman with fully awake sexuality rather than with a girl who can’t fuck, even if it means she was schooled by someone other than himself.
And, this was your point. This is about you and guys like you and what you would and do prefer.
This is not about what is best for the girl.
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What’s the difference, Lurker? If the womans value doesn’t go down in the eyes of valuable men, but goes up from being sexually schooled, then her mate and thus life prospects have improved.
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I suspect Lurker that you are of the Novaseeker school of sexual strategy. That society is built on the good works of the betas, and that any other strategy of mate selection other than a woman being supported by a man is vestigal and counterproductive R strategy horniness.
Bollocks.
There is more than one socially usefull way of pair bonding. It is not correct that the best way is for the woman to be as chaste as possible and mated with a stable family oriented provider. You betas wish. You’ve dreamed up a philosophy to match your predeliction. That is all.
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If the womans value doesn’t go down in the eyes of valuable men, but goes up from being sexually schooled
This is a big assumption. If we are generalizing, we are, in general, talking about the average girls or even above average girls.
And, assuming that they have some basic interest in attaining a long term relationship/marriage..well, being banged by 15 or 20 guys to finally get sexually awakened is not going to help them.
The average girl will, on average, marry the average guy. And the average guy, even today, still prefers a girl who was not banged out by players…no matter how skillfully they are able to suck dick.
This is not about what is a best strategy, rather, this is about what is likely going to happen. Whether or not something is best, or worst for beta males, or average and above average looking girls, is not what will determine what will happen.
Average Men (Betas) and Average Girls and Above Average Men (Higher-Betas/Lesser-Alphas) and Above Average Girls are still going to get together. And, if more and more girls are being banged out (and improving their ability to satisfy a man sexually) it is going to hurt them in the long run. Because, in the long run, they do not want to end up like cat-ladies.
And stretched out girls who finally learn how to deep throat by their 30’s are not improving. For the guys, sure…for themselves, absolutely not.
Granted, they do this to themselves.
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Laura said…”A 60-70 year old man is usually loved by his wife of many years”
This is great when it’s true. But if you observe couples in this age range (really any age over 40 or so) in any major metro area, you’ll see that the wife is very often showing anger, open contempt, and displays of dominance over her husband.
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Lurker, it seems you have no idea what I mean by sexually awakened. It isn’t about satisfying men with oral skills. It isn’t about any skill set. It’s about them enjoying sex more. Which translates into a more meaningful deeper ecstatic sexual experience and bond with their mate – whoever the new mate may be. A sexual bond, as in, what the relationship has at its foundation.
I help girls have firmer relationship foundations with their future partners.
I still get thank you messages for the gifts I’ve given them. If they thank me, I’ll take their word for it that their lives improved.
You seem to be unable to understand what I’m talking about.
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It isn’t about satisfying men with oral skills.
Dude, it was just shorthand.
Which translates into a more meaningful deeper ecstatic sexual experience and bond with their mate – whoever the new mate may be.
Yes, a stronger bond to that guy that banged her brains out. Not a stronger bond to the 5th or 10th guy after him. Thursday has provided numerous references to this very idea.
I help girls have firmer relationship foundations with their future partners.
If you are telling me that these girls, say, 10 years later truly did have the Husband, 2 Kids, Dog and White Picket Fence that they dreamed about (or whatever long-term dream they had), then fine, I will take your word for it.
However, in general, I doubt it.
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As well it’s quite easy for a middle or late 50s man who’s had even a modicum of success and often without that, and hasn’t let himself go completely, or a 60 yo as well, to find a divorced early 40s woman with grown children to give him great sex and spend the rest of her life with very happily.
Them’s the facts. It’s definitely true. The alone unhappy 60-70 yo is likely to be either a natural loner, a man who’s long felt defeated by life outside of women, and/or a divorced man who’s been cleaned out by his wife’s divorce theft, and descended downwards from there.
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Polymath–
Divorce lawyers I’ve talked to in real life and online. I don’t have a reference to a study at hand, nor have I looked for one. But I’ve never seen contradicted the often made assertion that men file for divorce far less often even, when their are minor children in the house. Mostly then it’s when their wife is such a mess (drug addiction etc. or total abandonment) that these men are very likely to get custody, or the youngest child is close to moving out of the house.
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Lurker
No, I’m telling you that I improved the girls, the girls lives, the girls temporary and future happiness.
What you said is just your version of a good outcome. Not everyone has that strategy. As I keep trying to say.
It’s ONE sexual strategy. The whole beta provider thing is just ONE strategy. Not everyone is into it. Not all men, not all women. If the beta provider as backbone of society jive was anything other than back rationalizing predilections than there would be no female dual mating strategy. Hell, women even have more than two – two is just shorthand for not only into the whole beta thing.
Your litmus test for improvement tests only one chemical, not ph.
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The only people I know who want to marry virgins are religious nutjobs and control freaks with self-esteem issues. Women can gain great value by becoming more sexually aware. Most women are neither virgins nor stretched-out whores, there is plenty of room in between.
Too many idiots here only see extremes. Example: The happily married aging man, and the lecherous Bangkok pervert.
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Beer monkey, the religious nutjobs were born that way. Roughly 40% of people have genes that give them moral views that include a sense of purity and a sense of value in agreeing with social mores. I may have the 40% figure wrong, but it is some percentage.
These deeply held moral feelings are innate, and GENETIC.
I know it’s rude to shout, but people have intense aversion to accepting this fact. Morals are genetic, and we are stuck with what we are born with.
My point that I harp on, is that society is a system of castes, and it would be weaker if we killed everyone but one class. We need the betas, the alphas, and all the various castes, in order to be healthy enough to fend off invaders.
It’s false that R selection is vestigal. It’s a primary to the human condition now as ever, and perhaps needed more in these times than ever, if you believe that troubled times call for creative risk taking solutions, you’ll note the necessitity for the risk taking male – the can do cad.
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@ Jerry Ertans:
you wrote, “And, asshole, IMBRA isn’t even being complied with.”
Wow, taking things a bit personally? All the way in Europe? Over something in USA? What’s up with that. Seems to me that you have anger issues. Doesn’t IMBRA require background checks for domestic violence? Things that make me go, hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe that’s why you are against it?
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What you said is just your version of a good outcome. Not everyone has that strategy. As I keep trying to say.
I am not saying everyone has this strategy. Again, we are generalizing. Also, we are not field generals, we are animals. I am not talking about strategies, but what is likely going to happen, whether someone wants it or not.
What you said is just your version of a good outcome.
I don’t give a fuck. Personally, I am more than happy to watch the idiots hang themselves. But I do not kid myself as to what the ultimate outcome will likely be.
It’s ONE sexual strategy. The whole beta provider thing … If the beta provider as backbone of society jive was anything other than back rationalizing predilections than there would be no female dual mating strategy.
I am not talking about strategies or what is best for the Beta Provider or whether or not the Beta Provider as backbone is best for blah blah blah…you are arguing with someone else. I am guessing it is Novaseeker since you mentioned him before.
I am making a really simple point:
Assuming that most girls are genuinely interested in getting married, and having a relatively successful marriage, and that this is best for them, then, getting some sexual awakening from some guy that is not going to marry them is, in general, not great for them.
If the girl honestly could care less about marriage, then, fine, no big deal.
But the average, and above average girl, does. And the average guy does not want to find out, in any way, that she got “stretched out” by some previous guy.
Regardless of whether this is best for society is between you and novaseeker…but some average girl racking up the player notches is not going to help her get that white picket fence.
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Jeff,
I understand what you are saying. Even so, I don’t think I am wrong in saying unless your family is completely dysfunctional they are going to care about you more than a paid escort would. I’m guessing a lot of men would rather be with someone who is nice to them it least.
Doug,
You are right. I know quite a few men whose love lives seem to be going strong after a divorce. I do think there is such a thing as going after women that are too young for you. You even mentioned that yourself in one of your posts. With rare exceptions 18-24 women are not interested in 50 year old men, no matter how much game they have. I think Roissy is actually pretty reasonable about this.
Beer Monkey,
I am aware that the world is not black and white. There are many unhappy married men(it sounds like you were) and I’m sure there are plenty of decent, realistic western men in Bangkok. I don’t really know much about that scene, I was only responding to something Jacko wrote.
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Beer Monkey–
I think middle betas, some of whom are successful men important to society, gain a whole lot on average when the woman they marry is a virgin. Just three generations ago most American girls were at marriage and most of the rest had had one or two prior sexual intercourse partners. that’s really true.
So while what you say about most women now, that’s hardly the historical order in the US. Further in most civilizations in history girls were virgins at marriage.
Now for alpha males and to a degree for higher betas it makes a lot less difference that she’s a virgin, or only had say three or fewer partners.
However I think you’re extraordinarily ill informed if you think that very many women who have had 30 and up sex partners, most of them some kind of alpha, with her heart broken three early times and then less and less, can fall adoringly in love with a man that becomes her husband, and feel deeply compellingly pair bonded with him for decades.
She might stay with her husband for the kids and because they get along and the sex is good even after awhile, but no I don’t think she’ll feel intensely romantically bonded to him after 7 years in this case, and I DO think she’ll be extremely tempted to have affairs w/alpha men who come her way and if she’s keep herself up or returned to shape, will be interested in a fling w/her. Leading to way less interest to perhaps revulsion at having sex w/her husband.
If you don’t think that’s how it works, including for alphas that marry such girls esp. if they aren’t famous men and the like, I’d suggest you don’t know much about this subject.
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xsplat–
I don’t agree that one substantial type of attraction to alphas, or one subtype of r selection isn’t vestigial.
That’s attraction to the real bad boy. The thug.
Now it’s a little complicated because the bad boy and thug are rebels and have high aggression, both of which it makes continuing evolutionary sense for girls or many girls to be attracted to. However they also have those things or the type of bad boy and thug I have in mind do, without having much success or realistic prospect of it, and without leading large numbers towards possibly new things, whether or not the “revolution” or “coup” usually succeeds.
Too many women are attracted at least for just sex to this type, and enough aggression and rebellion exists in more successful types of alpha men,for me to not think the fairly wide hot female attraction to the bad boy version of alpha isn’t vestigial.
Put another way, that’s the one form of female alpha attraction that’s clearly socially dysfunctional, and has been at least since the onset of agriculture followed by civilization some 10k years ago. A vast amount of human evolution has occurred since, as per the much acclaimed book with evolution and 10,000 years in the title, by Cochran and Harpendig, contrary to popular educated received wisdom. (Science moves along folks.)
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Jerry
In the spirit of tooting my own horn (I’m full of that cheerful spirit), I’ll not only agree with you Jerry, but go one further. People with both the bravery and means to leave their homeland, who are adaptable and resourceful enough to set up shop and successfully date pretty young girls in foreign lands are clearly above average in several measures.
Most men wouldn’t have the guts.
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Excellent News: The Russian FSB just did a mass-arrest of 40 terrorist leaders who organized the brutal train and subway attacks that tore innocent Russian women, men and kids to pieces in the past few months.
26 preferred to die “resisting arrest”.
Far from the US feminist characterization of Russian men as a bunch of gammas who get drunk a lot, Russian men are feared and admired in much of the world and they present tough competition for Russian 10s.
In Russia, feminists are shot.
@GT
You ask a fascinating question “How does anything that happens in the USA affect American men living in other countries.”
Since 9-11 expats have to report bank accounts to the IRS if we have more than $10K in them. Laura Bush made sure we got saddled by Congress with an age of consent of 18 (the Protect Act) but the US federal courts pushed that down to 16 because most US state laws say 16. Both of the above laws set a precedent that US citizens are the property of the US government and can be regulated even when not inside the USA. The bank law could be a big problem when an expat strikes it rich overseas and doesn’t want to pay the IRS because they aren’t getting any benefits from being American.
President Bush, responsible for establishing the “no Americans are free to do overseas what they wish” doctrine, also appointed a judge Thomas Rose who said “There is no fundamental right of an American to communicate with a foreigner” in response to one of the two incompetent challenges against IMBRA (any decent challenge would succeed in getting a restraining order in 3 days).
Here is Roissy’s post on IMBRA: http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/repeal-the-imbra-now/
In the other challenge to the law, European Connections vs Gonzales, a women’s group argued that “US men who date or marry much younger women are out to control them and are thus apt to be domestic abusers” despite all evidence to the contrary (1000 US wives are murdered per year and only 1 “mail order bride” in 3 years is killed).
A left wing judge, Clarence Cooper, agreed that men who date younger women are “controllers” and stated that meeting women is like buying a gun in that both should be regulated. <– I am not kidding, go to http://www.onlinedatingrights.com to verify this.
President Bush also made sure he blackmailed more than a few East European and Asian governments to outlaw prostitution or else they will not receive part of $15 billion in "AIDS funding". American diplomats tried to get these governments to also make laws to arrest American men practicing "sex tourism". Almost all countries resisted this last audacious request because it would mean arresting their own men just for talking with prostitutes as well. The men of Brazil totally rejected Bush's blackmail. Russia did not need Bush's handouts, but the Ukraine and Poland and the Baltic States did. At any moment a law could be passed where I live, thanks to Hillary Clinton's machinations, making me a criminal if I pay anyone for sex and she tells (or if I don't pay and she says I did).
So that asshole Bush (I'm Republican) got a lot of expats to vote against the Republicans despite expat businessmen normally voting GOP. Barr got much of the overseas conservative vote in 2008. Hillary is a big danger to expat men but Sarah Palin and a Neocon feminist McCain Secretary of State may have been worse.
Expats now know that the environment in foreign countries can change overnight because of US Government pressure, especially if the leaders of those countries feel they want to suck up to the American president.
The Philippines, where left wing politicians idolize Obama and Clinton, have now completely banned all agencies that introduce American men to young adult women. The leaders there do anything US feminists tell them to. Filipinas now have to get permission from their government to leave their country (for their own good, you see – never in the history of democracies has this kind of law ever happened democratically).
Just like an American man will sometimes prefer to go online to meet someone in Cleveland (while it is raining or snowing outside), it happens overseas that an American man will, now and then, also want to meet someone online. There are often 9s and 10s to be met via the local "marriage agencies" many of whom are OK with premarital sex despite the fact that they are also often virgins or close to it (you can tell quickly how much sex a woman's had anywhere). The agencies are not escort agencies selling sex. That is another business (and highly illegal in most of East Europe).
What the greedy agencies have done regarding the above law, is they pretend it means that people can anonymously communicate with each other but it is illegal to give out actual contact information (the law bans all communication until after the foreign woman signs the man's background check in writing, at which case her contact info can be given out). This interpretation allows agencies to pretend to be the women featured on their sites and a man who doesn't insist on paying an extra $40 to immediately meet a woman, will often pay more than $100 writing to a woman that does not exist (photo 10 years old, already married long ago).
Many women who are not interested in meeting Americans will now ask the agencies to pay them $20 per month to "feature them" where agency employees pretend to be them in letter writing with US men – and the agencies just use their interpretation of the above law to pretend the women are only interested in communicating anonymously. This has ruined the business.
So the business idea that it is profitable for women to pretend to be scared and paranoid has been transferred to dating agencies in other countries by the US Congress.
In the past, I could be visiting a city and chose to meet someone immediately by buying her phone number for $15 online. The new law makes this illegal now, even if the woman has expressly stated that she wants her number to be given to those who happen to be visiting for a day or two. The agencies now no longer serve this basic human right of being introduced to each other on a moment's notice, but they won't comply with the law if you know the owner.
The US Congress is about to vote on giving $1 billion per year to foreign feminist groups to copy American laws in their own countries. The new bill is called the International Violence Against Women Act or iVAWA.
Just Google VAWA + feminism to see mountains of material on this.
Remember that Israel and Australia now have cohabitation laws making men financially responsible for their former live-in girlfriends.
Imagine similar laws that make US males financially responsible for the women they had sex with in other countries (with no pregnancy).
We could easily end up being treated like terrorists on the run.
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Gender traditionalists who seek to socially construct a return to the days when women were bound to the marriage contract think carpe diem means “seize the yesterday”.
They are lamenting this, our best golden age ever. It’s all one huge opportunity, and they can’t see the forest for the trees.
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How old are you, Xsplat?
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If you want to be referred to as Chateau, that’s fine. I really don’t care what your name is. No need to put this through it was only intended for you.
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Laura and all —
According to Roissy and I believe him, he doesn’t moderate any comments. WordPress does by some mysterious to him too auto algorithem they have.
He didn’t used to block anyone from posting here but some events have I believe caused him to do so with one or two.
He does however with some trolling type posters who are highly repetitive, yes more so if in their repetition they’re irritating to him and his message, delete posts of theirs when he gets around to it, soon or delayed, willy nilly. I don’t get the impression he deletes all the posts giving the same basic message or objection, from what he’s said, but he’ll delete a lot of them. That’s relatively few people but it’s probably been about ten cumulatively from time to time, over the last few years.
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Xsplat,
I agree. The moderating has not been very good lately.
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Laura, Xsplat–
Use your brains. Aside from what he’s said, consider this.
Roissy has a full time job. He doesn’t sit here all day, every day, moderating comments in real time.
The blogs that do that have a long comment delay. For all comments not just some. Often not ’til the next day.
I guess he could have a system where he flags some people for pass right through commenting and others for comment review. However he’d never have put PA or xsplat as flagged for comment review. They’re both old timers, game friendly, and don’t spam. Same could be said for many others who have been frustrated by what seems almost random comment picking for delay.
It can’t be entirely random though because in two years of commenting here I’ve never once been actually delayed, just had the notice go into my comment for awhile that it was being delayed. Oh wait. I guess it could be that Roissy doesn’t select anyone for comment moderation only wordpress does and that’s when the notice goes on. (Which might happen with i) people who comment a lot within a time period on this blog or a thread; ii) long comments; iii) comments with lots of linkage, or frequent linking on a thread. I’m inclined to think not ii) by when I do and don’t get notices. THEN what roissy does do is give some people, like me, a pass through by flagging us ok so we don’t actually get delayed by wordpress for his look see.
The trouble is while this would explain why I get the notice fairly often but never the delay, it doesn’t explain why PA and xsplat are sometimes annoyingly delayed. PA in particular.
Mystery.
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xsplat/”There is a GENETIC predisposition to view girls as “unclean” if they have had many sexual partners. Only roughly 40% of men have that GENETIC predisposition”
If there is REALLY a genetic component to this preference, that’s pretty interesting. Are there links to any studies?
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On the ruination thing, this is one of the points where PA and I agree despite a difference in religious beliefs.
A loving woman is ruined a little bit, and dies a little inside not from the sex itself, but from the breakup.
Every guy who leaves her has left her worth less as a long term partner than she was before, because she is no longer able to be naive enough to think in “forever” terms. You can’t un-know something you know.
I’m not talking about women who go into things with temporary intentions. I mean women who believe in love and loyalty.
It’s like the difference between a good cop and a “good” lawyer.
The cop keeps doing what they do because they maintain a hope against hope that they can do some good. Sometimes they do, but every time they go into a domestic dispute where the “victim” was lying or turns on the police, they are less able to regard the next case with the same mind they had before the last.
Mounting evidence convinces them that things are not always what they seem to be, so the morally outraged rookie eventually becomes the nearly indifferent veteran.
So really, if you don’t think she’s worth sticking with, just leave the virgins and the fresh where you find them. There’s always some other girl out there to shag who’s already lost or doesn’t want forever.
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Xsplat, another good thing western men who branch out can do is try to stem the tide of western style feminism that is creeping into other cultures. You can warn people before they go to far.
I’d like to think I’ve done some good in that regard since I’ve been here. You can’t save everyone, but one friend at a time, you can do something.
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sensei – it works even when you get older. I know a guy who is 65 whose wife is 35. He was her city college instructor.
How do you bang them without people finding out? Do you do it while they are students or when they become former students?
I’m interested in people like Jeffrey Marsalis, Helg Sgarbi and roissy act. Basically, they learn how to win in certain conditions (a bit how a chessmaster memorizes endgames) and then they win, win and keep winning.
Being a professor at a university seems like it would provide new opportunities every year. The same for date rapists who specialize in 18-year olds away from home for the first time – every year a new crop.
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Doug
Who cares? Why would anyone want to stay with the same woman for more than 7 years anyway?
Have you ever seen a woman age?
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@Xontarian
It is things like that last sentence that make it look like you are trying to troll the conversation into discrediting itself.
But, yes, before feminism, professors considered part of their compensation the fact that new gorgeous young women would fall in love with them every year.
This is still the case in Europe where smart American professors have moved to, specifically avoiding the feminist policies that ruined things back in the States.
I’ve met these guys. Listening to them will finally convince any American alpha that there actually is a feminism problem in the USA.
That isn’t to say I haven’t seen American professors openly on dates with students, blatantly ignoring the policies, even at Harvard.
Alphas defy all of these feminist policies and laws.
Which reminds me, I really need to sign up to give guest lectures at the local university….seriously.
I read this blog to get new ideas or be reminded of good ideas and implement them.
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Doug
I have never seen this mythical attraction to the thug. Ok, I’ve seen it once – just once – when a late teen friend of my brothers started hanging out with bikers.
Other than that every woman I’ve ever met has tempered her bad boy urges with a practical concern for a provider, and they are attracted to the whole package.
So I’m not saying women aren’t attracted to bad boys. They are. I’m saying, no, they are not attracted to the pure thug nearly as much as is implied on this board. If they are, how come I’ve never seen it? How come there aren’t more thugs, for that matter?
Unless you are talking about hispanics or inner city blacks, I call bulshit.
Women are attracted to risk takers. That’s not a thug. And risk taking is a very valuable trait for society. They are attracted to men who are outside of the system. That’s not a thug. A tax cheat or black market entrepreneur is not a thug. And black market entrepreneur also can be a huge benefit to society. Women are attracted to the wanderer who fucks around – the cad. That’s not a thug.
It’s not vestigal that women are attracted to the outsider, the cad, the risk taker.
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Lurker
Girls don’t actually get stretched out by cock. You are mistaken about that. Some girls stay tight their whole lives no matter what they stuff in there, some go from virgin to very loose with their first man. I’ve been that first man inside that loose tunnel, and I’ve been with girls who have probably had over 100 sex partners, so I know.
Your whole stretched out theory of cock hopping is pure fear based on nothing.
Babies stretch women out – sometimes. Again, some girls stay tight after babies, even without kegels.
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Xsplat, some men would like to father their own children. Some men also understand that they aren’t immortal, and don’t expect or demand women to be either.
…but then, some men don’t or don’t care. It’s good that you’re honest with yourself about it if you don’t care. Just be aware that most men aren’t really like that.
They, like the average career woman, may behave that way when they’re pressed or when they’re herded into it, but behaving against one’s own nature is not going to result in much happiness for anyone.
I think a guy should figure out what he is and what he wants, and try to find a realistic way to get the outcome he really wants.
It would he helpful if he found ethical ways of going about it as well.
I thought about this in my decision not to be a cougar. Although it’s not morally wrong to be the sexual wet nurse to a string of sexually deprived younger men, it’s not me. I can respect a woman who goes into that with her eyes open, as I can respect a revolving door kind of guy. It’s just not what I want for my life.
So, as a way of executing my plan for myself, I learned to reject with proper consideration and compassion. I also had to remember from the older women in my life, how to establish the un-sexy female authority dynamic with guys I meet. The learning to be uninviting helped me to avoid situations where I’d have to do rejecting.
How do you manage to make sure the women you’re with understand that you’re going to release them on youth expiration, without breaking their hearts?
Do you establish that at the beginning, or is it something that, due to your behavior, is just a given?
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And Lurker, its difficult to talk with you if you don’t mean what you say. When I talk about awakening a womans sexuality, you equate it with her technical skills improving. I try to correct you on that but you shrug it off and say you were just generalizing, talking about oral skills. I’m not talking about technical skills – I’m talking about something vastly different. I’m talking about a woman who previously, even though she had been with many lovers in many different contexts from casual through to serious, never much enjoyed sex. I’m talking about several such women. Many such women. Who then radically transformed their internal experience to one of greatly enjoying sex.
Now I wonder if you really mean that the woman being stretched out is the issue, or if that is some shorthand again for something else. You have a forest with no trees. Each time I point to one of your trees, it turns into a shrub. But you proclaim that the shrub isn’t the thing, it’s the forest. You didn’t really mean that oral sex was the thing, that was shorthand for the forest. Now I’ll bet you really didn’t mean her loose vagina was the thing.
You have no forest.
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@Xsplat,
How old are you?
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Nicole
That’s not true, Nicole. I’m not sure what percentage of men are family men, but I doubt it’s much more than 50%. I think a very hefty proportion of men would live my lifestyle if they could. The perpetual bachelor suits many men just fine. I’d go so far as to say that given the choice, the majority of men would opt to not have kids and not marry, if it meant they could instead have serious romantic relationships with a succession of one or three beautiful all around attractive women who show love and devotion.
It’s women who feel that babies are the be all and end all of existence. Some men feel that, but not an overwhelming majority. Not most men.
As for what I do? I’m as honest in person as I am on this board. I’m straight up, always. Never caused me any harm so far.
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Nicole
Oh, come on. Ms. Victim. Women are so fragile, abused poor, hurt creatures. Get over your dainty little self. Women are hard cold back stabbing manipulators who know exactly what they are getting into nearly all of the time. They certainly do with me, as I let them know.
Do you realize what year this is? Need a reminder? 2010! Whatever you are talking about is not relevant anymore. Not even in muslim societies. Yes, there are some girls who dream of marriage and only marriage – and I’ll still try to fuck em. Because I don’t believe in their world view. I don’t believe virginity is valuable. Nearly nobody does in this day and age. There is birth control now. If a girl has sex with me, she knows what she is getting into. Girls are responsible enough to fuck me, if that’s what they choose. And if you think otherwise, then poor, irresponsible you.
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Yes, Daniel, there really is a genetic predisposition. Google “genetic basis for morality” . I have some links I might dig up. I’ve put them on my blog a few times.
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@Jacko – guess.
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Now now, let’s not play games. If you wanna talk a big game you gotta come clean.
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Xsplat, this isn’t about me personally. Some have done much, much worse than fuck me in my lifetime, and I’m stronger for it.
I’m also not condemning you. I was just wondering how you manage it, and if you think about the long term results.
What good does it do a woman to be sexually awakened only to find a few years later that she is no longer valued by the agent of her awakening?
Do you not suspect that though you are honest, at least some of them think that their case will be different?
You do understand that when you are done with them, they are indeed less valuable, even to you, because they are older.
How do you help them to navigate the transition from worthless to you, to perhaps worth something to some other man?
What usually happens to your “graduates”?
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Nicole, the trajectory of my relationships is the same as for anyone else. It varies in all the same ways it does for everyone else. They probably look a lot like yours, or anyone elses on this board. Some girls dump me, some I leave. Some cheat on me, some I cheat on them first. The last one was meant to stay with me indefinitely, but she died. One steadfastly refused to believe I would not marry her, so I left her in a paid for rented house, set her up with a few businesses, and allowed her to date others while I went seeking my pussy fortunes elsewhere. That woman is in my room now taking care of me after the last girl died.
People fall in and out of love. That’s reality.
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Xsplat, I don’t believe that people fall out of love. They fall out of desire for what the other person was useful for at the time. So perhaps they fall out of affection.
Maybe I say this because I’ve never fallen out of love. It could be another one of those freakish things about me.
I’ve been dumped, and I’ve had to leave because it was dangerous, but I’ve never actually stopped loving someone who I loved. The way I expressed that had to change, but I still love them.
I can accept that others aren’t wired exactly the same, but I have never in my life seen two people who really loved each other, stop.
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Let’s not forget the inspiring example of 53-year-old Charlie Chaplin, who was pursued by the lovely 17-year-old Oona O’Neill and married her shortly after her 18th birthday. The marriage was a happy one by ALL accounts, they had eight children together, and she mourned his death (in 1977) until the very day she herself died in 1991.
I’ll drink to Oona!
By the way I am happy to announce that I have my blog up and running; please see my new posts:
http://ostronova.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/how-to-save-the-chimpanzee-although-its-basically-a-loser/ (in which I deliver a well-deserved slap to the face of that annoying Jane Goodall, the chimp groupie)
and
http://ostronova.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/some-women-go-abroad-to-look-for-husbands-too/ (in which I present the result of my researches into the phenomenon of white women going to Asia for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of harvesting a BetaHubbyDaddy.)
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That’s probably due to a tautological definition of love.
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Xsplat, I mean that in the sense of real deal bonding to the point that they view each other as family.
I’ve never seen someone actually stop loving someone they love. I’ve seen them change how or if they express it towards the other person or people, but not really have it stop.
I have heard of it, but not really seen it up close. It sounds horrible, and I hope it never happens to me.
The closest I’ve been to something like that is being infatuated with someone I didn’t really know well enough and/or didn’t get close enough to them, to love, and then that not developing into love once I knew what was there.
I’m trying to think of what someone would have to do in order for me to actually stop loving them once it’s love. They’d have to do worse than getting old…something like harming someone I love, or a kid or something really really bad.
Again, I’m not condemning you or anyone else for their feelings. I’m just trying to understand how it works. Due to some leftover idealism, I might take a kind of moralist tone about it, but it’s not my intention to judge anyone about this. Feelings are feelings, and everyone has a right to theirs.
It just helps me to understand what is in nature, so I can accept it and know what it is that I’m accepting.
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Nicole, nearly everyone who gets married considers their love real, and their bonds secure. No one marries expecting to divorce.
That you’ve never fallen out of love is merely an accident of circumstance. Play the love game long enough, and it’s bound to happen.
Sometimes one of the partners has to die first, but that is the exception, not the rule. The rule is that love has a time limit.
You can re-define what love means to get around that, but then we aren’t talking about anything resembling heterosexual love, and start talking about friendship.
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The beta strategy is to build an alliance of like minded moral police to enforce a society that does not allow for sexual competition.
The cad strategy is to be better at fucking than all the loser betas.
In this day and age, which strategy is the most strategic?
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@ Nicole;
I would venture that higher end blue collar and white collar Black men are *desperate* to find a decent Black woman. What they’re after though, is someone who is kind, trusting, nurturing, and interested in being their *woman*.
How many Black women do you know like this?
I am a member of another MRA forum with a lot of black men as members and this is their single biggest complaint. All say they strike out with black women. All of these guys are well paid and have degrees too.
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Xsplat, the bar for what I’d call love is pretty high. I don’t think I’m straying from its definition though.
I’m taking about a bond with someone that is like family. It’s feeling a vested interest in their survival, and if you’re lucky enough to have that reciprocated, their happiness as well.
I don’t see how that can just stop. I don’t see how a person can be willing to die for someone, and just wake up one day and that end for some reason more petty than their causing a death or severe destruction on purpose.
Just because I don’t see it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, but you’ll have to forgive me for not viewing a love less serious and permanent than death as real love. Lesser affections are just affections, not love…to me anyway.
Maybe it’s one of those relative things.
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xsplat,
Your response to Nicole,
“The rule is that love has a time limit. You can re-define what love means to get around that, but then we aren’t talking about anything resembling heterosexual love, and start talking about friendship.”
is misguided. Nicole is not “re-defining” love, she is referring to a particular subspecies of heterosexual love that apparently does not interest you but is important to many if not most people.
I agree with Nicole, and I think that most people are capable of recognizing that there is a particular kind of love between a man and a woman which involves self-sacrifice and commitment, where the *long-term* happiness of the other is essential to one’s own happiness. This is not a controversial point; practically everyone grows up in a family where bonds of this type exist between parents and children, if not always between parents and each other. Many people also feel a similar closeness and commitment to their siblings. A man and woman who form this type of connection are well-equipped to raise children, while a man and a woman whose commitment to each other depends on the sexual temperature only would be unwise to have children with each other.
Nicole’s point is simply that THIS kind of feeling for another person does not dissipate naturally, as sexual attraction may; it can be lost as a result of betrayal (of any type, not necessarily sexual betrayal), extremely stressful circumstances, or personality changes brought on by things like mental illness or drug addiction, but it does NOT simply go away without such an external cause. Also, it is much more painful to lose than mere sexual attraction is.
When she talks about “love” above, she is not talking about the same kind of relationship you are; that does not mean she denigrates the kind you are referring to or thinks that love is not involved in it, just that for her (and for many if not most people) the ideal long-term relationship involves more.
You are perfectly normal to want the kind of relationship with your young Asian girlfriends that you have, and I think there is nothing wrong with your lifestyle at all if you are not planning to have children. But it is obtuse to deny that other couples may be capable of a depth of commitment of the whole personality that is absent from the relationships you have had. Again, this is not a controversial point; the kind of long-term self-sacrificing commitment that your parents had, or ought to have had, for you is also capable of being realized between sexual partners, and, unlike sexual attraction, does not *naturally* decline or go away.
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Polymath, my parents are in the majority in that they divorced.
Ideal is the key word. Less than 10% of people who remain married do so for love. That’s the science. Argue with science.
It’s a crap shoot, this ideal long-term love you talk about. We ALL start out thinking we are in that exact kind of love. Only in retrospect do we re-label it as something else if we fall out of it or things change. Things change for 90% of the time when people marry.
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The only people qualified to make any comment on this ideal type of love are old people who have been married for a long time. And then they are only qualified to talk about what worked for them.
If you want to talk about common experience, MOST people will not die with the person they marry. And if they do, MOST of those won’t tell you that they still love their marriage partner. That’s the science. That’s been studied. That’s reality.
Nicole isn’t even married. Everyone loves and loses. That’s how it works.
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PA said-
“The larger point is that a lot of MERA types are angry betas who idealize foreign women. May of those guys snap to reality when their Filipina wife cleans them out in court or their Ukrainian wife bangs a Russian while he’s at work.
Not all American women are she-lawyers, not all are fat or overentitled. And failure with American women portends failure with a foreign one because Beta is an internationally recognized character.”
I agree because I’ve seen it. I don’t agree with this simply because I’m an American woman, but if one has no relationship skills or can’t succeed with any type of woman, then he is not an alpha. I love foreign men generally, but I’m not limited to a particular nationality. The connect should be able to happen with any type if one is well rounded enough. I also stand by my own country’s men, even if they don’t show well internationally speaking. American men can suck, but no foreigner is going to say this to me about the men of my country, I will defend them, every time, regardless.
Also, a guy who takes risks yet has nothing to lose is not impressive, he is just guilty of risky behavior. Young punks do this all the time. It’s a shallow definition of the behavior and won’t hold much value after it is compared. It’s also the difference between a guy in a hoodie and sneakers and man in a custom suit. If a man who has built himself a career that measures well against real society and on a large scale, then when he takes risks, it is a sign of a man of fascinating character and independence.
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Why are some of the men on here (Doug, Xsplat & Jerry Ertans) so unwilling to reveal their age? Men don’t need to lie about their age.
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Girls don’t actually get stretched out by cock. You are mistaken about that.
Dude, it is just a saying.
And Lurker, its difficult to talk with you if you don’t mean what you say. When I talk about awakening a womans sexuality, you equate it with her technical skills improving.
Dude, again, it was shorthand.
When someone says that, “she is used up”…do you actually think that she is completely used up and incapable of having sex anymore?
It is just a saying.
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To be filed under “you never stop learning” — I’ve heard the phrase “May-December Romance” since my early teens, but always assumed it refers to a vacation fling. Though it struck me odd that someone’s vacation lasts that many months. So then I figured that it’s a chick you meet in May, but by December, you’ve lost touch. It made some sense.
Now, it turns out “May-December” is a metaphor for the couple’s ages.
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Jerry Ertans – I’m not trolling.
I just see the commonalities of PUAs, blackmailers (Helg Sgarbi), game-havin’ date rapists (Jeffrey Marsalis) and the low date rapists that go after college freshman – and don’t mind pointing them out.
Jeffrey Marsalis was interesting, because he combined elements of PUAery (he fronted as an ueber alpha) with benadryl to achieve his goals.
Basically, all those guys are skilled predators. They have more or less conning ability. Salespeople – e.g. car salespeople – describe having the same feelings as PUAs, when they run their plays on people, and see that they’ve got people hooked.
There’s something fundamental to the human condition here. PUAs, date rapists, sales people, conmen, etc.
I can’t be the first person to have noticed this.
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Oh, but I am married, Xsplat. My husband is no longer sexually functional in the normal sense, and has instructed me to seek that sort of amusement elsewhere. So I have a lover, who I refer to as my BB or bottom bitch as a matter of relationship, not personality. My husband has two female subs.
Knowing what’s “out there” helps me to be grateful for what I have. It also helps me when I have to counsel others.
I avoid herding men into a single direction or telling them crap like they aren’t “mature” if they don’t pursue particular kinds of relationships. So if I encounter a guy who is somewhat normally oriented, but living a very non conventional life happily, I’m going to quiz him half to death if I have the chance.
As a spiritual counselor, I have that kind of wiggle room that they don’t have in the conventional therapeutic community. Being technically agnostic, and viewing things like “the spirit realm” in terms of psychological relevance, I also have a different approach than many in my own field.
I suspect that for you, a kind of humanitarian love is more important than individual bonding. Do I have it right that you view yourself as a kind of a teacher?
I don’t believe that a teacher does not love their students, each and every one, just because the student-teacher relationship is temporary in direct expression.
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Lurker, it’s fruitless to talk to you. You reason like a woman with PMS.
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Sounds like something you’d read in a horroscope or peel out of a fortune cookie. Everyone wants to see themselves as a special mentor to the lesser folk.
My spiritual guidance is confined to choice advice such as “lie on your stomach”.
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Spit it out Xsplat, unless you’re hiding something. Do you really find that you are clever? You can pawn this ‘tautological love’ crap on some people but most aren’t buying.
I lived overseas for eight years and there are two types of men there, you ain’t no different buddy.
English teachers and backpackers are common.
So are aging white men who can normally be found in an internet cafe or parked on a barstool with a Heineken in one hand.
I like to give people a little leeway but you’re hiding something. Spit it out. How fucking old are you? Don’t be such a chickenshit.
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@anoukange,
I have to agree with you and PA on that. The foreign bride is an illusion, not in all cases, but definitely most. Whenever I see men talking about their girls overseas a red flag comes up.
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@Anoukange
Roissy really should set things straight on the total bullshit argument that there is a qualitative difference between men who date domestically in the USA and those smart enough to date internationally often AT THE SAME TIME as they date domestically. We need to be logical here.
Those of us who date overseas are among the more successful members of the PUA community and the leaders of the MRM. In fact, MRAs that anguish too much over American marriage laws come across as Betas to the MRAs who consider them chumps for hanging out in a feminist society.
There is no logic in saying that, if a man has an American 10 as a girlfriend (and some more in an American MLTR) and then he takes a trip to Moscow to date some more 10s, that he has supposedly been rejected by the girlfriend at home and lost his domestic harem.
Where is the logic in there? There isn’t any. It is what older insecure American women pretend to assume about any man who dates women overseas.
It is insecure.
We can discuss this until the cows come home but I would prefer that you just drop the slander as @PA will hopefully do because @XSplat and I and others are not going to put up with nonsense about American women being superior and Alpha males supposedly being defined as “operating in the USA only” as if that is really where the best 9s and 10s are located.
Roissy should do a post on this…but I am not sure how much international travel he has made.
Given a choice, an American Republican male will sleep with a Swedish 10 before he will sleep with an American 8 (unless he is an idiot).
Life is too short for patriotism aside from serving in the military when young (check) not giving away the identities of CIA agents overseas if you figure them out (check) and not selling state secrets (check). It definitely has no place in mate selection and if you start working for a foreign corporation, you will compete against its American counterparts for the almighty dollar or Euro.
Your essay made the wild assumption that American women are superior to foreign women and that men with the guts and money to fly for a long weekend (or permanently) to a better place are, in fact, not going to a better place – even if the fact that their American girlfriend, waiting at home, is a 9 or 10 – which should cause you to wonder why he feels the grass is greener elsewhere.
It is in your own interest as an American woman to be obtuse on this subject of course. You don’t like the idea of being devalued by a dilution of the market by a factor of 10 so you keep implying that a man who goes overseas is being rejected by women in the USA.
You think that if you say it enough “men who date overseas were rejected in the USA” “men who date overseas were rejected in the USA” – maybe, just maybe, it will be true!!
Well it isn’t true. Or it might be true that I e.g. can only date 20 years younger in the USA while dating 30 years younger overseas (meaning, yes, more but not all American 18 year olds will reject me in the USA than in European 18 year olds will if we did a test).
But 25 or 30 year old American women aren’t difficult at all for the kind of guy who goes overseas. So if you want to keep the bullshit idea that we left because we were being rejected, keep in mind “rejected more by the 18-20 year old demographic than the same demographic would reject elsewhere”.
That is the way to look at it.
The “My Country Right or Wrong” mindset is so childish that the Republican Party is going to have to drop it or continually remain in the silly see-saw (pendulum) condition it is in with the leftists.
Expats do have more guts than the average male and even the feminists admit the upper classes and most successful of all men are heavily represented in the expat community. Think of the tax code.
While 50% of expats might be betas and a few omegas, remember that 85% of domestic American men are betas, omegas, etc.
All in all, the expat community is a superior subset of Americans and feminists have agreed. But feminists will then point illogically to the few real losers that go abroad (for instance to date and marry), who then abused or killed a wife, and they illogically call the superior subset to be an inferior and dangerous subset.
It is bad mathematics, a complete misunderstanding of statistics and it is pure Marxist feminist logic to look at a few bad samples of a superior subset and declare the subset inferior – in your own interest.
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Laura,
I like your posts. How old are you?
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Lurker, it’s fruitless to talk to you. You reason like a woman with PMS.
Shut the fuck up. You obviously had an argument in your head about strategies, that you wanted to have with novaseeker. I never brought up strategies, but you insisted on arguing with me as if I had.
All the while, you would cop an attitude as if I was the one that could not follow any logic.
On top of all that, you were completely ignorant of the idea that someone might be glib when referencing your ability to awaken her sexuality.
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@Xontrarian
> …I can’t be the first person to have noticed this.
I don’t know anything about some of those individuals you mentioned, but I’ve stated before (not here) that women have selected for good salesmen, the best the planet has ever seen as a matter of fact. That’s why we have so much salesmanship going on.
This is on the principle that male behavior is the result of a breeding experiment run by females. Males compete to be a better salesman than the next guy; even guys who try to run loser game (“I’m so pathetic, nobody loves me, etc…”) are trying an alternative sales strategy.
The only difference I can think of right off between commercial salesmanship and the dating/mating market is that the former is regulated to prevent fraud, whereas with the latter it’s almost mandatory — the first thing almost every guy learns seems to be that just “being yourself” is a consistently losing strategy. IOW, your “predators” have been set loose in the dating/mating market, maybe under the principle that “all’s fair, etc.”, whereas in the commercial sector they’re hunted down and sanctioned.
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Laura–
Any long time reader here as got a rough idea of my age. I’ll just say to newcomer you that my live together love in her early thirties (looks mid 20s) is v. young for me and that my online love for a year now who used to frequent here a lot which is where I met her, blogs at Girlgame and will soon be 21 though she’s a third year honors med student in London (and determined to remain a virgin until marriage which part of why we have durably worked as an often intense emotional online relationship, that and my committed real life relationship), is scandalously too young for me by American standards. Kay?
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PA
Yeah but it must have in origin been a critical older woman’s metaphor for them.
Since as I said way above, May September or sometimes October would be a more accurate one. Unless we’re talking about Hugh Hefner these days or that rich Texan geeser who Anna Nicole Smith married strictly for romance and chemistry of course.
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I don’t usually jump into conversations with you Xsplat but I do agree with what Nicole’s been saying regarding a seeming disconnect between your ability to ‘awaken’ a woman and then having a total disregard for women at the same time. Saying Lurker sounds like a woman with PMS – does not sound like a man who could inspire a woman to ‘grow’ under him. Also saying she’s worthless after more than seven years is also indicative of woman hating attitude. I would find it strange a woman wouldn’t be able to pick that out – regardless of how many orgasms you were able to give her.
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Jacko – I’ve mentioned my age here on the blog many times. If you are that interested in me, read the archives.
And your snide comments about expats stinks. Why don’tyou go suck your own cock or break your neck trying, mkay?
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Aoefe, I don’t have total disregard for women. I have partial disregard for women.
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PA said-
anoukange responded to PA
Yeah, yeah. True. But, but.
The problem is with American women at birth. The problem is the male toxic and female masculining and entitling feminist cultural and legal environment they’re brought up in.
Bring a foreign woman to America and you bring her immediately into our legal environment, though it will likely take her some time to fully realize what that means and the power it gives her over her American husband if she wants to use it.
You also bring her into American culture over time. She’ll still have been brought up in her own foreign culture, by her foreign parents. But to the degree that she develops close girlfriends who were brought up in American culture and have entitled feminist and husband taking for granted in his provider role attitudes, and a feeling that what she wants should always rule and trump in the marriage, then she’s gonna get American pretty fast. If her closest friends in American also grew up in her own or a neighboring or similar foreign culture, less danger. There’s still American TV unmixed much with foreign takes on marital relationships, and so on.
Any man contemplating marrying a foreign woman and bringing her to America and thus within American family law needs a prenup that mimics cohabitating if there’s a breakup just as much as he does if he’s marrying an American woman. Far from dooming his marriage such an agreement and equally important her willingness to agree to it and marry him anyway, bode far better for the longevity and satisfaction to him of the marriage than if he didn’t insist on it. If this requirement drives a particular foreign woman away, well that was one vastly worth it investigative technique into her true character and intentions. He’s extremely fortunate to have smoked her out in that way.
There’s still the marrying him for a green card issue, but that’s one hell of a lot better than a green card and half his lets say considerable money, plus alimony. State coerced high percentage after tax child support=stealth alimony happens either way in feminist America, if children do.
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Thanks Anton. I’m 35 years old.
I guess I just don’t see why men would really need to lie about their age. If some woman doesn’t like it, forget her. Most women aren’t all that concerned about a man’s age and if she really has a problem with it, she might be too young for you anyway.
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@Jerry ertans
Very good point. It’s like asking why a really rich guy would buy a brand new ferrari/lambo/aston instead of a used ford escort….hes not compensating, he gets the high end car because it’s better quality/faster/looks better and most of all BECAUSE HE CAN. its that simple.
No one accuses him of not being able to drive an old ford escort just because he prefers to have a better newer car. No one suggests he has an unreasonable hatred, aversion or inability with old, used or cheaper cars. It is not a reflection on his ability as a driver. He doesn’t have any reason to envy a guy driving a banged out old pickup for a living or stupid little smart car even if someone told him he should.
One reason women hate it when men go abroad for women is because it shows a clinical ruthless more common to women themselves. a deeper knowledge of women. A guy that can have it all and knows it. A man who is much more like a woman in his approach to relations. A man who is successfully playing these bitches for all they worth. No compromises.
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Of course not all foreign countries are anything like equally foreign to what American men looking abroad care about, American feminism. British and Anglosphere women generally won’t be much better and I think British actually about as bad. Germans are pretty feminist too as are Swedes, though their laws are actually not nearly as bad for men being divorced as American ones are. America has the most oppressive to men divorce laws in the world – except that Britain doesn’t honor prenups, though they’re thinking of doing so right now, in a case in the courts.
Signifcantly lower child care from him in Sweden and Scandanavia generally, and much less likely that he’ll have to pay alimony. Though that doesn’t do him much good when he brings a Swedish or Dannish wife back to America.
Anyway the two things a man should care about after figuring the right countries for him to be looking in, are 1) has she come to genuinely love as in adore you, yes the adoration standard must be met; and 2) will she sign a prenup that pretty much mimics living together if there’s a breakup. Unless you abandon her for no compelling reason. Then she does get half the net wealth you accumulated while married her up to some high cap, but no alimony ever period.
Her not giving you regular and reasonably frequent best efforts sex for an extended time or blowing up like a pig are compelling reasons. You know perfectly well you’re marrying her in large part for regular good sex. So you should be able to leave her and not pay her beyond what she’s shared with you as your wife while you were still married, if she stops giving that to you. Duuhhh.
You abandoing her and the marriage is the only reason she gets money from you if you breakup other than child support if applicable. That and MAYBE if you repeatedly felony assault her (which generally requires breaking bones or severe lacerations). I said repeatedly cause a girl seeing seeing big money or to her big money at stake, is not above slashing herself or getting someone else to break her bones, if she’s of a certain mindset, or becomes of that mindset in the American feminist culture which promotes such female entitledness at her ex-husband’s expense. For those reasons I’d really rather leave this out of the prenup entirely. None of this losey goosey feminist defined “domestic abuse” bullshite though for sure.
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No Xsplat, you are a trainwreck. Go back and re-read your postings here. You are a babbling brook of incoherent nonsense. If you were a man of any substance you wouldn’t hide behind the screen and make someone guess your age. You are therefore, a coward. I did not want to have to dismantle you online, but you’ve left me with no choice. Only women make men guess their age.
Don’t try and bullshit a bullshitter. I’ve travelled all over Asia, esp SE Asia. Retirees I understand, because well, they are retired. I’ve an acquaintance who lives in Laguna on Phuket Island and does nothing but golf, each and every day.
So what are you afraid of? If you want to pontificate about your knowledge of women and game, you gotta pay the price, man. Eventually, people are gonna wonder who the fuck you are. So unless you are willing to reveal your age, you really should just shut the fuck up.
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What is your stupid fucking point, Jacko?
Why do you care how old I am?
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xsplat,
You’re moving the goalposts. You made a categorical statement to Nicole, I said you are overlooking a type of relationship that exists in significant numbers, and then you said well most relationships aren’t like that, which I had never denied.
I never said most relationships were like that, but I maintain that most people are capable of relationships like that if they connect with the right person. Furthermore, it is not a question of “you can’t tell whether you will fall out of love with someone until it happens”. The point Nicole and I were making was that, even though your sexual attraction may decline unpredictably, the kind of familial love we are referring to does not simply go away by surprise.
The concept you are not getting is revealed by what you wrote:
“Less than 10% of people who remain married do so for love. That’s the science. Argue with science. It’s a crap shoot, this ideal long-term love you talk about. We ALL start out thinking we are in that exact kind of love. Only in retrospect do we re-label it as something else if we fall out of it or things change. Things change for 90% of the time when people marry.”
First of all, “the science” doesn’t exist until you give the wording of the question, the population that was sampled, and the sampling method. I worked as a professional pollster for many years, I know exactly how to interpret any such research, send me the link.
Second, it is not a question of being “in” love. What Nicole and I are talking about is a kind of love that IS NOT DEFINED BY FEELINGS, BUT BY ATTITUDE. It involves a commitment of the will, and as long as there has been no major change in the personalities involved and they each have a significant amount of personal integrity, one would not expect this commitment to disappear on its own. To the extent that emotions are involved, they are the kind of emotions that form the background rather than the foreground and are stable — have your feelings towards your mother significantly changed since you turned 21? You would not experience a major reduction in the love and respect you had for your mother since you were already an adult, absent cruel behavior or major personality changes.
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Yes, Polymath, some people feel like that sometimes.
I have such a commitment right now to the woman in my apartment, and she to me.
I don’t call that love though. You can call it love if you want to.
I only call love what includes lust. Semantics maybe.
And as for even such feelings changing, you think they are unlikely to change without a major reason. My experience and from what I see hear and read informs me otherwise.
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Jacko–
Utter horeshiite from the book of Brit chivalry. You know nothing of game.
Guys with game make girls do so all freakin time. Including Roissy.
Start by dropping chivalry. Completely. Replace with Mediterranean macho. Italian, Spanish, Greek, even French macho. Not Brit chivalry. Refined classy macho if that’s what suits you, but macho.
Macho embraces male dominance, and aims to seduce female submission. (Well there are types of macho that just want to bludgeon it, but mostly that’s Brit and Anglosphere slander.)
Chivalry is male self sacrificing, often or archtpyally in an unrequited way. Though those less in the know think it will buy female admiration and hence favors.
Well it won’t buy her gina tingles for you. Skillful macho will. Game is a kind of macho.
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Sorry this above:
Was meant to be:
The problem is NOT with American women at birth.
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And of course @The Realist was dead on:
If you go to Italy to get a Ferrari, nobody disses your driving skills.
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Well Doug, I would agree that machismo is one of several factors in influencing a woman’s feelings, but of course, it is not the only one. The ones I knew that were successfully bedding asian babes overseas were well into their fifties and sixties, either in semi or full retirement. This is why I was asking about age. There is no reason to withhold info here, it’s not like any of us will ever meet each other.
I’m 40, I’ve got 20 – 25 more years of work before I retire, so when men tell me that they are boss player pussy slayers, I gotta know more about him. Fair enough, isn’t it?
No disrespect all around, my apologies to xsplat, I’m just trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, that’s all.
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Jakco, rather than posting here, why don’t you go outside and play hide and go fkk yourself? Your comments are about as useful as a jar full of foreskins.
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Why so reticent to divulge, xsplat? I bear you no ill will and I admit my comments were a little out of line. But I disagree, I like to think there is brotherhood among men -to a certain degree. Of course, we are hard wired to compete with one another.
Let me say that as a previous connoisseur of SE asian pussy, I have a fairly good understanding of that part of the world. I know a guy in Thailand who owns a bar there who is married to a Thai, and she asked him to put his money into her bank account. Of course he didn’t. The point is you have to be clever, it isn’t a place for the faint of heart.
Recently Roissy had a post about game keeping him away from love. Indeed, this is true. After awhile flesh will become meat, just a necessary means to achieving biological satisfaction. I remember one man telling me that since he turned 50, having sex was like taking a dump, just something he had to do from time to time.
I once met a German while travelling in Thailand and I asked him how it was going for him and he said with a wistful look in his eyes, “Great, except all the women I meet are prostitutes.”
In summation, I would recommend the expat route only for the rich. If you are, well then, the world is your oyster. But if not, no amount of game will help you.
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Jacko,
On other threads, xsplat has said that he is in his mid-40’s, short, and not handsome, and that his financial status has varied widely but is currently very good. He’s also been detailed enough about his girlfriends that I have no reason to doubt his basic truthfulness, although my impression is that I would rate his 9’s and 10’s as 8’s at best, as matter of personal taste (I’m sure they’re 9 or 10 to him).
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Jacko, Xsplat–
I have a theory about cultural a possible a little bit racial differences between SE Asian girls and Euro origin ones, relating to gender relations. I have had short relationships, well one really, with SE Asian women.
It seems to me they have far less of and maybe little or no real belief in romantic love for themselves, though they’re well aware that most Americans and other Euros believe in it, from the movies etc. and maybe personal experience or that of their gf’s. As well Euros who meet SE Asian women are often meeting bar girls or former bar girls, that is current or former at least part time prostitutes. Among those that are non traditional enough to consider a relationship with an American that’s often not considered nearly as big a thing over there as here, and they’re used to Americans that go there not being nearly as troubled by it as many of their own men would be, certainly in who they might pick as a young bride to have children with.
Anyway, far less belief in romantic love on their side and a more pragmatic view of man / woman relationships than Western women often have, esp. young or strongly earning western women. They do feel lust for sure though, but maybe see that as usually not lasting. Don’t know whether they feel lust usually as much w/their men as Euros do, but I sure think they can w/Americans who have game and are dominant acting. They also fake it a lot for good provider type men. Provider, or bad provider, is their basic background thought of what husbands are to women usually and if they can do better than bad provider that they have a lot of extended family enforced obligations to, they’re ahead of the game.
they do have a sense of duty but it’s not to abstract ideas like marriage. It’s to extended families mostly. If her extended family and yours (which is effectively non existent to her if you stay in her country w/her and certainly not in the loop about things in her community) aren’t enforcing her obligations to you in the marriage, then she’s not going to feel a lot of duty to an American husband. Instead continuing lust if you do that for her w/playful dominance game mostly, and it being a good provider deal and a harmonious partnership are what will keep her. She likely won’t have such good long term relationship deals on offer from local men after being w/you and esp. after being a bar girl if she was, and really in many ways in any event. Your competition is other foreigners mostly, or sex flings w/local guys on the down low if you aren’t gaming her lust for you right.
Thoughts?
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Jacko, you very clearly do bear me ill will. And so I reciprocate in unkind.
You are nothing but disrespect. Go suck rat dick in hell and swallow.
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Doug, yes, lots of westerners go for bar girls and some are foolish enough to try to make anything serious of it. Most keep the pay for play as strictly entertainment. Most who seek anything other than paid for company look elsewhere. And it’s easy enough that those who live here have no trouble finding non-prostitute company.
I’ve seen some of my girlfriends friends bawling their eyes out over some lost love. It’s true that Asian are pragmatic about marriage, but they love the same as girls anywhere.
I would have thought you’d have picked up on that.
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xsplat–
Well I wasn’t talkng about Asians which is an awfully wide assortment of races and subraces not to mention cultures, but SE Asians, which is wide enough.
So forget bar girls.
What about the rest of what I said, and I wasn’t talking primarily about bar girls either though I could have made that clearer.
Do SE Asian girls believe in the idea of romantic love was being part and parcel of a good marriage as Western women usually do? I’ve no doubt that they can feel lust big time and want that with a husband or man they’re living with if they can get it.
Also what about my lack of or less duty to marriage per se observation, when extended family isn’t enforcing that duty?
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Realist,
How old are you?
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Doug, you are right on two very important things. First is their practicality. A woman from SE Asia has a different sense of time than a western woman. The idea of waiting until you are 35 to have your first child is utter insanity to a woman from Thailand. They expect their first grandchild around the age of 40, so sense of time is completely different. Of course, the middle and upper classes in and surrounding Bangkok are more westernized, but still very much on a different sense of time.
The other point you make regarding duty to family is bang on. Thai people are first and foremost loyal to their families. Parents are revered and western rebelliousness is incomprehensible to them, they cannot fathom how we in the west behave. They have a King, and Thai people would march into the sea if the King ordered them to.
There are successful relationships between foreigners and Thais, but far more are unsuccessful, I think. Of course, no one can really know, there is no such data on this. The successful relationship will be one where the foreign man is bankrolling his girlfriend. She will in turn be the most feminine woman in the world, happily making you breakfast and doing your laundry. The money you supply will be sent to her parents so that her parents can live in some comfort in their retirement. But make no mistake -it will cost you. For the rich, this is a matter of insignificance. I would this recommend to any man with money. You’ll have a beautiful woman half your age be your personal assistant.
For me, I had to leave because I have to work. No work, no money. But my friend who is retired there is about as happy as a man can possibly be. Golf every day, nice house, nice beaches. However, the key point is that for most men, we must wait until we are retired.
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Polymath, the one 10 that I mentioned wasn’t rated by peculiar me alone. Everywhere we strolled men would stop and do triple takes. Not double, triple.
She’s the kind of beauty who would get marriage offers by rich men in airports. The kind who you are instantly smitten by.
My 9 might very well by your eight, or even less. She was often mistaken for being 13 years old. But again, she regularly won the most sexy girl in Cebu Saturday night dance contest, judging by audience reaction. Everywhere we went all the girls would hail her with “Hi cute”. Men would tell me I was lucky to be with her.
Most of the rest of the girls might be 7s, with some 6s and maybe even 5s depending on your taste. All were above my attractiveness threshold, and I am at least as picky as the next man. Judging by who I see westerners with, I’m far pickier.
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Woops – what was I saying! Not most of the rest would be 7s and below. Two a few years ago could easily be cover girls for a Bali Lonely Planet book. I approached them cold with day game. Again two of the most attractive girls in the city. Pity one was a prostitute, she had my heart for a few weeks. I got over her by seeing the second beauty, but she turned out to be a player girl too. No harm no foul.
Anyway, I date attractive girls who make my dick hard and make me proud to be with them in public. They ALL get hit on by other men, constantly.
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One thing that should come as no surprise though, I’ve never seen a western man near my age with a western woman whose girl was as attractive as mine. God, what a sight their cohorts are. Can you believe it, they come over here with women their own age! Why?!
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As I said, yes, I agree that they are more open about being pragmatic about marriage. Are they more pragmatic? That’s open to interpretation. I’d say no. I’d say western women are damn pragmatic when it comes to marriage, same as anywhere. Do SE Asian not even consider love when marrying. No, Doug, I don’t think that’s the case.
You are right that SE Asians, Thais in particular, will put family before husband. It’s less like that in Indonesia. I’ve never had that issue arise at all. Not once. Not even a hint of it. That might be because of the nature of relationships I get into – I only do lust based relationships. No one ever mistook me for a provider. But then even the parents that I met never hinted at money and some even were explicit that they wanted none. That they even mentioned it means its an issue with some families. A lot of guys who date SE Asians pay a stipend to the extended family. I would never consider it under any circumstances, and I want to say again, it’s never once been a subject that was even remotely relevant.
About duty to marriage, it depends quite a bit on her background. A lot of girls take marriage deadly seriously.
The SE Asian families I’ve met all had very strong bonds and an extremely healthy family and extended family bonds. Marriage isn’t about paying the girls family family cash. For any but the stupid westerner who stumbles into the industry.
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Xsplat I’m in agreement with you if by partial disregard you mean you don’t pedastalize women. We are special snowflakes of course, but in my mind no more special than men.
I like men. I think there are a-holes but for the most part I believe men are just different than we are. Men who’ve determined to not like women because heck we’re women are short changing themselves. We need to be ‘managed’ differently, but heck that’s the fun. I’m glad you guys are nothing like us and that’s not a put down aimed at women – I like us too.
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If you want to get a feeling for Thai-western relationships, read stickmanbangkok.com. You’ll find that most of the savy guys aren’t sending money to the family. If the woman works and wants to send some of her salary, that’s allowed. Some men do send a finite stipend, but I’ve never met anyone who does that. It’s mostly the tourist who takes whatever his girl says as gospel and who has no backbone who gets played. And yes, it’s an industry to play westerners. A very large, very lucrative industry.
I don’t think that reflects on SE Asians – not even Thais – as a whole. Yes, women in SE Asia are mercenary – especially Thais, even Filipinas, and now its starting to spread to Bali. More so than Western girls? Not according to what you’d read on stickmanbangkok. Despite the endless wailing about Thais, it’s overwhelmingly full of readers submissions that are anti western woman.
Look, I mostly date college educated girls. Some just starting, some just finishing college, some finished for some years. Mostly of good family – doctors and lawyers and stable earners with regular families, decent house, at least one car, etc. They don’t need money. The lower class girls I’ve dated even though their family was struggling there was never any ultimatum or even request. From my experience and what I’ve read on stickman, this is more normal than not.
People have the strangest idea about poverty in SE Asia. People are not poor here. The lifestyle is basically the same as middle or lower middle class anywhere. TV, car, plenty to eat, decent house.
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@Aeofe: Yup.
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And Jacko, what kind of friends do you keep who while visiting a foreign country are unable to meet anyone but prostitutes?
You’re friends are wacked, dude.
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Actually, you are wacked Jacko. You are obsessed with prostitution. Prostitute this, prostitute that.
Two dollar whore?! The going rate in Bali now is 100 bucks a night plus exstacy money.
And I’ve had nights out on the town in Thailand where I couldn’t even score a hooker. They bulk of them generally only go with guys who turn them on, because they can afford to be picky. Yes, the prostitutes very regularly turn down customers. Especially in the meetup areas where the prostitute/girlfriend lines get blurred.
Your view of sexuality in Asia is dismal. Your attitude is dismal. You, Jacko, are dismal.
I’m racist, Jacko, but your version of racism is inhumane.
You clearly want to knock me down a peg or two. Clearly what I say irks you – you think I’m a pretender to something. Nothing I’ve said anywhere has mentioned that I have good pickup skills. I don’t. I suck at pickup. What I’ve offered is very valuable advice on the human and the female condition, especially as it relates to dominance. This is cross cultural information, in no way tainted by PROSTITUTION PROSTIUTION PROSTITUTION PROSTI fucking god damned everywhere you look you see PROSTITUTION!
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Ultimately men and women get together for one reason- sex, and Thai women know that farangs have money. It’s no mystery that thousands of men descend upon the land of smiles every year looking for a woman. The ones who I judged to be successful were those who were already retired, that’s why I was curious about your age. If you are young and successful there, I tip my hat to you. I know a guy who started small on the island of Koh Chang, bought a small beauty salon which was an addition to a hotel, bought half a dozen motorbikes to be rented out, and he does pretty well. He also takes tourists on tours as part of a company. All in all, life is good. It’s just that for every success story I saw, I also saw a gazillion trainwrecks. As the song goes, “One night in Bangkok can make a hard man humble”.
So yes, if you are avoiding the bar scene and all that jazz, and you are financially independent, I say all the power to you. I’m going to have to push a rock uphill for another 20 years before I can consider relocating back to Thailand.
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@Jacko
You just made an excellent point that a ton of American men, one can assume alpha and otherwise, would like to live full time overseas but they need to earn money and they see that mainly coming from working in the States.
That used to be the story of my life (and I’ve seen Roissy sometimes wistfully wondering why he works in the US). After the fall of the Berlin Wall, between jobs, I would take savings of $20,000 or $50,000 and try to live in Russia or Eastern Europe only to eventually run out of the money (after 8 months to a year) and have to scurry back to the USA with my tail between my legs.
It always bothered me that I could find a job in radical feminist San Francisco at any time within 3 days paying at least $5,000 per month but I didn’t know how to get the equivalent $2000 per month (same buying power) where the women weren’t Marxist feminists and where I wanted to live (I can do very well socially in San Francisco in the Goth scene and the Russian community as well as among foreign exchange students at Berkeley and Stanford and the traditional liberal families with property directly on the coastline – but those scenes can’t compare to Moscow).
My parents would always laugh. They were always so sure of my immediate ability to get a great job in San Francisco, that they would gladly foot the $2000 loan for me to leave Europe to get one which often meant spending a few weeks in a Motel 6 type joint as I waited for the first paycheck from the job I got in less than a week. I would then end up quickly doing very well financially and better than most men socially but I’d be unhappy over time.
Then one day I was sitting in the hot-tub at that new age nudist resort in the Sonoma Valley with gorgeous lesbians sitting all around me, and I thought “I don’t need to be forced my whole life to earn a living in a sick society” (well maybe that wasn’t the last straw because that particular place was fascinating to visit ;-))
I decided to fly east of where the Iron Curtain had been and I swore I would starve to death before I ever flew back. Period. So I flew here.
I am still here 8 years later.
What happened is that I did starve for one 5 month period after my funds ran out, but I finally got a $4000 per month job in the region I wanted to be in. And once you’ve earned a certain amount in any region in the world, others are ready to pay you the same rate to work there for them.
The lesson here is that, if you want to play golf in Phuket with your friend all the time, go all out and CUT the psychological umbilical cord with the US job market.
I generally refuse to give career advice on social forums but I can say that the best jobs are those you create for yourself, for instance by calling an American CEO cold and convincing him that he needs someone in the time zone you are in.
If you are producing results, whose to know you took the morning off to play a round of golf with your buddy.
The Internet makes remote managerial work a piece of cake.
The world really is your oyster.
And there is no need to squander all you have to offer by dating a mercenary instead of the many well-educated traditional women who make you feel good just to know them.
You can always fly to Oahu to enjoy dating American women now and then. I guarantee you that an Alpha who seduces an American woman on Waikiki and then says “How about coming to live with me at my great place in Jakarta”…is likely to get a “Yes, I will quit my job and be there in a month”.
American women can crave the James Bond lifestyle as much as American men do.
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I lived hand to mouth for the last 7 of my last 8 years in Asia, Jacko. At my worst I was spending my last few coins on food and booze. Regularly late with rent.
I did fine. Better than fine. And I’ve “only” paid for sex three times in my life. With girls I paid for food when we went out and never even so much as a trinket of appreciation more.
And as I’ve mentioned regularly, I’m well below average in looks.
It’s simple – if you refuse sex without at least passion and prefer it with a good degree of romance, you’ll avoid the pay for play scene. If you have a strong libido and don’t jack off much, you’ll have no choice but to date. If you date, you learn. That’s how it works no matter where you live. It is much much easier for a white man to date in Asia.
All this talk about cash offends me. It really does, if you could see my face you’d see a look of disgust on it, as if punk skunk was trying to rob me.
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The girl in my bed now lived with me for two years when I was too broke to even afford a bed. We lived for two months on a a twin sized foam mattress on the floor. I upgraded to a queen sized foam mattress when I had more money.
She earned my devotion, because she stuck with me through thin. Most girls don’t do that – SE Asian or not.
So get over this pay for play attitude about SE Asians. It’s sick.
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It’s hard to grasp people online sometimes, and where they are coming from. I am an average, ordinary guy in all ways. I’m trying to understand what you are saying, and I think you are saying that you are not interested in women for the long term. Or that it is worth trying. I don’t know what, I can’t make any sense of your posts.
I like variety myself, that’s probably why I’m not married. However, the ideal situation would be one partner. I think most men would agree with that.
If you don’t have any money and you are still scoring the poon, then you have mad skills. I left Thailand three years ago and had to say goodbye to the old lady and at the heart of the problem was the same as it is for most people -money. If I had built a successful business things would have been different. It can be done. But I think it is rare. You really have to trust your old lady/wife to do business in the Kingdom. Foreigners cannot own more than a 49% share of a Thai company.
Anyway, we are all different, and I admit I have difficulty understanding you. You are poor, you get lots of poon, but you do not want a long term relationship with a woman. Or you do. It depends. I don’t know.
By the way, I only mentioned hookers once, in reference to some german stranger I met once. Again, no hard feelings, just trying to understand where you’re coming from.
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Also, the USA has the most advanced erotic industry I’ve ever seen. Most places in the USA have a lap dance bar a few miles away where 18 and 19 year old 9s and 10s will grind into you and get you off for about $200 in dances (I am aware that the lighting only makes them appear to be 10s sometimes but enough are real 10s). I know of nowhere in Eastern Europe or even Russia where things are that open and advanced in terms of quality and quantity of mercenaries.
If there is anything that might keep a young PUA in the States, it would be that he might miss the sheer openness (brazenness) of the American strip club scene (and the amazing wife-swapping scene other countries weren’t shameless and perverted enough to develop – Lord, I miss that most about the USA).
I sacrificed that to be with traditional church-going women in Eastern Europe (MLTR of course).
Maybe I instinctively know what is best for me.
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Jacko, I’m no longer poor. I’m doing better financially than most middle class westerners now. Living in Asia this allows me to re-invest, which snowballs. As with anything, if you stick with it, you get better, no matter how much you suck at first.
I’ve done all sorts of relationships. For the last three years I’ve had sex with two women. One I lived with for two years, but became intensely bored with. The last I was really into but she died short of one year living together. In Thailand I preferred to keep two or three steady girlfriends, with extra dates on the side, because I just couldn’t take Thai girls seriously. The one girl I fell in deep love with there was from Pakistan – the 10, and she very nearly married me. I lost out to a US passport.
So what do I want? Happiness, same as anyone. My last girl, who I loved, was going to pursue threesomes and sex parties with me. We were actively seeking it. I have some health problems now that will take a few months to fix, and after that I plan to live non-monogamously again, unless someone catches my heart.
Flexibility, my man, flexibility.
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And Jacko, did you forget you accused me of dating two dollar whores?
Prick.
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@Jerry,
Globalman posts sometimes over at the Spearhead and he has traveled all over the world. Eastern Europe is where he lives now. I don’t know which country but he says that’s the place to be. I’ve never been to Europe but it sounds worthwhile to check it out. What I liked about Thailand was the sunshine, and that I could wear shorts and sandals every day. The only way for me to move back is if I can learn to be entrepreneurial. That is my weakness. I work as a third mate on ocean-going ships which is what allowed me to travel around Asia. I would work three months on and get three months off. Got tired of shipping out three years ago and decided to take a break. Nine to five life is a little dull back home, and I do miss my Thai days. If I can learn how to work there, to have some kind of business, I’ll be moving back. Or maybe I’ll try some place different. I hear Vietnam is up and coming so maybe Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh. Hell, even Cambodia is on the rise.
@Xsplat,
Ya, I threw some negative comments your way but it was done to mine information. I think we men are resources to one another but we are hard wired not to share info, but to compete. All the old timers in the men’s rights movement have said their biggest disappointment were men. On matters of the most importance, men cannot be found. We can build bridges, highways and rockets, but women have full ownership of marriage, divorce, child support, alimony -all things of vital importance to men. I thought I’d had it made in the shade in Thailand but the woman I was with eventually started pressuring for marriage and a visa. When she wouldn’t stop I knew it had to end. The thing is, I probably would have married her had I had some business in Thailand, something profitable, a bookstore, a shop, a small restaurant- anything. But alas, this was not the case. So I’m back home until next year when I’ll be shipping out again.
Japan is another place I hear nothing but good about. Out of wedlock births are only 2%, so the women aren’t slutting it up, and they apparently dig white guys.
I know nothing about Indonesia or the Philippines, both of which sound good. I knew guys I worked with that lived in Davao and Cebu. Some guys would show me pictures Boracay and Bohol. Gotta love a place where you can own a decent home for $50,000 USD.
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Jacko, I lived for a year with a hottie in Bohol.
I would have told you my age if you had acted decent and respectful. From the first you were a prick, so I treated you like a prick.
I told you as much the first time you asked my age several weeks ago.
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Jacko,
This woman that you were with in Thailand doesn’t sound like she was doing anything wrong, she was merely looking out for her best interests. What does jumping from one xsplat to another really going to do for her in the long run? Also, I don’t know why all you think women totally control marriage, divorce, child support and alimony. Many women live in less than ideal marriages or struggle after a divorce. Having a family is a responsibility for a man, if he doesn’t want it then don’t get married. This wasn’t meant as a criticism of you, I’m just saying.
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Hey Laura,
No, I hope I wasn’t implying that she was doing anything wrong. On the contrary, given her circumstances she was doing the right thing. It all turned out for the best, she moved to Greece and is working on getting her EU passport. It just took me a long time to realize that just as women are sex objects, so too are men considered ‘success objects’. All a woman has to do to get a man is show up. Men have to accumulate knowledge, wealth and resources. It’s brutally competitive. My ex girlfriend’s friend wound up marrying a guy from Miami who has two houses on Miami and one on the Big Island. He doesn’t actually work, he just sells his paintings and lives off the profits. I never understood how someone could do that, so I just presumed he comes from a wealthy family and he has an inheritance. In any event, I was outleagued, outgunned, and punching way above my weight. I’m a working man, so I had to come home and lick my wounds. My ex girlfriend thought that everyone in the west lived like that: just sell your paintings and you can own three houses. She didn’t know any better because she had never lived in the west. She knows now. But I do not bear her any ill will and the lesson I learned is that for men all we can do is work. The more we work, the more we make, the more we make, the more chance we have with women. If there are men that do not have much money but still manage to attract women, I have not met them. Yes, high school sweethearts are the exception, but in my experience, just as men are judging women by their youth and beauty, so too are women judging men by their social and economic dominance.
As for marriage, divorce, child support and alimony, what you say surprises me. Actually, no it doesn’t surprise me. You’ve been reading this blog for awhile now, and so you must be aware that when a woman divorces a man, the state will protect her, and she will get paid. In other words, the government pays women to leave their husbands. Child support is not much, but it is still money. Alimony can be a tremendous windfall for a woman. The point is, women prior to the 1960’s only left their husbands in severe cases, like abuse. Now it is boredom and lack of fulfillment. Men don’t initiate divorce -women do. And they get paid. Women have been told they are oppressed for so long now, we are soaking in it in our culture. We are positively dripping in it. When a woman leaves her husband it is considered liberating.
Whenever I speak with a woman about this, inevitably she will say things like, “Did you make her feel special?” “Did you treat her like a princess every day?” So the gulf between men and women is enormous. Men are dodging bullets and competing with other men daily, and women are judging men by the tingly feelings they give her. If she so much as begins to lose the tingles, she will divorce, and in many cases, deny visitation and access to the children.
This is standard operating procedure now for modern western females. It’s why the marriage rate is dropping so low. Women still don’t get it, even after it is explained over and over again.
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@Jacko:
I must agree with Jerry Ertans here. Foreign women blow US women away. There are more attractive ones, they are easier to deal with, more cosmopolitan, and don’t exhibit so many of the well known negative AW traits. Women like my wife don’t even exist in the US as they don’t reach her caliber and remain decent people. Ukraine has more beauties per square km than anywhere I’ve ever been and I’ve lived overseas now for over 20 years. American ex-pats generally do very well and the majority I have met have been well above average in terms of intelligence, success, and worldliness. Once you travel abroad for a while, you get to see what boring places DC and most of the US are. I view US women as decidedly inferior to foreign women. US women are Chevies where most foreign women will be the equivalent of at least a Honda. Mine is a Bentley.
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Laura,
I mean this as a compliment: you seem older than 35. But I appreciate your input here either way….
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Anton,
I didn’t take any offense, I took it as a compliment. So thanks.
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@Xsplat and all Expats (including anyone who might want to live in or retire in a foreign country including @PA if he ever gets the urge to travel):
Just heard from a tax advisor that Obama is going to try to eliminate the Foreign Income Exclusion, which means that all American citizens will finally become the real property (slaves) of the US Government.
Just like with IMBRA, nobody in the USA will fight the rape of our right to leave the country to do what we want.
The IRS will soon have the power to make us pay taxes even if somebody overseas gives us $100 in cash. Remember that Bush the Fool made it so we all have to report foreign bank accounts.
Obama is gong to try to stop all American companies that have overseas subsidiaries from allowing those subsidiaries to keep their profits offshore (currently they are only taxed when they repatriate the funds back to the US).
He will fail at this because corporate American will hire lobbyists to stop him at all costs (as well they should).
But nobody will care about the rights of individual Americans abroad. The screws are tightening.
The Democratic Party is becoming more and more bad news where the Republicans were getting pretty bad under Bush themselves.
Question: Is there any country that will refuse to play ball with the US on such matters?
While the Foreign Income Exemption is still active, what countries are you safest for you to refer to as your resident country? <– Apparently the IRS has the right to ask you to prove that the other country recognizes you as a resident.
Switzerland has completely surrendered. Completely. There are now worse than zero advantages to having a Swiss bank account as the Swiss government has turned into an agent of the IRS since last August.
This can cost Americans living overseas as much as $10,000 per year in extra taxes that they now would not have to pay at all. This can destroy your retirement plans.
Obama wants there to be no escape. Even denouncing your citizenship is now illegal because they say they have the right to steal all your money first and then they will agree to take your passport back (Bush signed that law, called HEART in 2005).
Part of the problem is that too many low-IQ Republicans have a misguided sense of patriotism. They say "Love it or Leave it" when they mean "Love it or Die".
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Jerry,
I’ve never lived in a foreign country, so I don’t know a lot about this. However, as a US citizen I have to pay income taxes. If you are still receiving all the benefits of being a US citizen don’t you think it’s only fair that you pay some income tax? Nobody likes to pay them, you’re not alone.
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Jerry Ertans wrote: “In any case, it is radical feminist to try to regulate that man with background checks just to say hello to someone.”
It’s not like anyone has anything to hide in their backgrounds now does it? If your intentions are honorable and on the up and up, what is wrong with a background check. Seems like a small price to pay for finding the love of your life.
Evidently if you don’t want a background check then you must have something to hide. Maybe that is why you supposedly moved all the way to Europe, Jerry???
Have a nice day Jerry.
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@Laura
You’d be OK with the USA becoming the first country in the history of the world to force its citizens to pay taxes when not in the country itself and earning outside the country? Qaddafi’s Libya has tried to do this but no other country has ever dared. Ancient Rome didn’t do that.
We expats don’t use the roads, the schools, the jails, the family courts. We won’t have to be forced to pay for that fake health insurance under the new Health Care Bill (thankfully) because the new health care will not extend to getting care overseas. Maybe it is good to pay for soldiers to kill terrorists in Iraq so they don’t get us in the countries where we are living…but everyone in the world would benefit from terrorists killed by US troops. Why don’t Germans pay US taxes? Remember, the outrage is also in that it gives the US government the right to control and spy on us – not just to tax us on what we say we earned in other countries.
What benefit besides the marketing effect (branding) of American men as being desirable? Social Security is like a life insurance plan with premiums (but not worth actually paying 15% of your income for while you are young), but we’re talking another 15%+ on top of that.
That would pay for more regulations for expats and personnel to do the regulating outside the country.
Millions of US citizen expats – who get zero benefit from being American besides the branding effect – are going to start shutting up when they talk of money and the IRS is going to send more spies out than they already have in the embassies and consulates.
This is a complete outrage – and it hasn’t happened yet. I am just saying that Obama’s advisors have mentioned it and I know Republicans like @PA are likely to not put up a fight because they say “too few Americans live overseas” to make a political difference.
There are millions of us. We’re just not organized.
By the way, an interesting website on expats is http://www.EscapeArtist.com
US Citizenship should not be made into a liability.
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Jacko,
I agree with you about the whole divorce thing. If a woman decides to leave because she is bored in my opinion she deserves no financial compensation from her husband. I still think she should be able to see her children, but that’s it, no money. Also, any woman who expects her husband to make her feel special needs to grow up. I guess this does happen more then I realize. I also do know some women who haven’t benefitted financially from a divorce, but their husbands were not high earners to begin with. Doug knows a lot about how to protect yourself from being taken advantage of.
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Jerry, thankfully I’m not a US wage-tax-slave-citizen.
I’m nobodies bitch. Unless I’m role playing.
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Jacko,
I’m guessing a lot of the judges that decide these divorce settlements are male (not that a female judges are necessarily more likely to be biased in favor of a woman). Anyway, it doesn’t seem fair, I don’t know what they are thinking.
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Laura–
Glad to hear you agree with this Laura.
But just so you realize how thoroughly rotten and deeply anti-male biased the family law system is that feminist have erected against men piece by piece over time, with enough male legislatures chivalrously white knighting for them with legislation under noble sounding names that’s in fact deeply unfair to me and turns basic principles of our legal system on its head, such as the “Violence Against Women Act”, if the reform you suggest were to become part of divorce law, the complaints of “male abuse” in marriages would absolutely sky rocket. So would self inflicted or wife’s friend (her secret lover perhaps?) inflicted injuries on her to make it look like serious abuse. Oh yeah that would happen when big money to her is at stake.
As it is false but at least in the first place about always given credence by the courts under VAWA claims of abuse and the man threatening and “making her afraid for her life” are regularly lodged by women beginning divorce actions, to routinely force the husband out of the marital home he’s paid for, and to begin the process of her getting full and complete child custody, which he’ll pay for through the nose – even though she’s flagrantly cheated and refuses to stop though her husband is willing to forgive her if she will and honestly do her best to work on the marriage and help rekindle it. Happens all the time. No hearing for the man, order of protection, he must move, months before there’s a hearing, all the time the DA tries to get him to go to male reeduction classes – with zero evidence he did anything to her, much less anything more than trivial. While she’s ripped the marriage apart by refusing to stop sleeping with another man, w/young children at home. That’s feminist American domestic law justice today and NONE of this is exaggerated Laura.
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I left this comment on Chuck’s blog “Gucci Little Piggy” but it’s also relevant here:
I’m starting to think that there are really two opposite wings in feminism:
1) the Hetero Feminists for whom feminism is a tool for separating alphas from mere greater-betas and classic betas. They are the hypergamous, she-lawyer, “sex-positive” wing of Feminism. Paradoxically as a lesbian, Camille Paglia is in this category. She’s gay, but has a deep appreciation for jock/alpha/stud/genius/talent masculinity.
2) The Lesbian Feminists for whom the movement is a liberation front. They want to do away with all males, particularly with alpha males. These feminists also seek to access or convert straight young women to lesbianism by creating myths of fear of males, myths of rape and abuse, domestic battery etc.
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Liberals like setting some of their wildest precedents on Americans overseas first, because they know they have them isolated even though they should have zero control over our lives. Republicans in the USA often get wound around the little fingers of the feminists because they want to be “chivalrous” and be Whiter Knighters.
Laura wants Americans overseas to pay for US family courts and roads – something no country has directly done in 6000 years to expats and now @GT wants to praise a law she knows nothing about: IMBRA.
As if it would ever fly that Americans will accept a domestic version of IMBRA that background checks all men who use the Internet to meet women.
First, read Roissy on IMBRA http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/repeal-the-imbra-now/
Read all the comments and pay attention to what Roissy says.
Try reading OnlineDatingRights.com. Do a Google search for IMBRA and Feminism. Feminist Sweden decided that a similar law violated human decency.
The law violates the right of foreign women to decide their own level of security in dealing with male strangers saying hi to them, to the point where a woman cannot even receive email on her anonymous email accounts or on one of her many anonymous mobile phone numbers (foreign women often have 3 cell phone numbers).
And most men have no intention of marrying a foreign woman that they just contact to say hello and chat. There is nothing wrong with wanting just sex from a relationship as well. Who is talking about needing to “pay a price to find the love of their life”?
Saying hello to someone should be free of government control (IMBRA also forces all Americans to be background checked when they apply for a fiance visa regardless of whether they met the foreigner via a dating agency or not).
Besides the fact that it isn’t fair for any government to expose the 1% of Americans who may have something like a DUI and then tattle on them before they can even say hello (I don’t have anything on my record), IMBRA stops the 99% with nothing on their record from being able to say hello in real time no matter how much the foreigner wants him to be able to do that.
Foreign women who have no email CANNOT SIGN the affidavit saying they read the background check (which is worthless to the woman anyway because it is on the honor system and smart serial killers will just lie on the form).
I have no criminal record or DUIs. I have no children or previous marriage that the background check also forces guys to divulge (on the honor system again – making it worthless as protection to any woman).
But I lie on the background form anyway because it asks for every state I ever lived in and I just write a few states that I know women think are cool (Hawaii, California, New York). I refuse to bother listing the other states I lived in.
I refuse to jump because the government says boo.
And the poor guys with a DUI on their record – a woman is likely to refuse to meet a man who has not had the chance to game her, if she sees he has a DUI.
Do you see the precedent here? This will be applied domestically to all PUAs who want to meet women if the Supreme Court upholds IMBRA.
I have convinced several foreign agencies not to comply – the US has no jurisdiction over them as much as it would like to. Even US agencies don’t really comply.
The IMBRA background check is meaningless. The violation of human rights comes in forcing the foreign woman, often against her will because it is an annoyance, to sign an affidavit in writing when she may just want a man to be able to directly contact her on a moment’s notice without a lot of red tape likely stopping a meeting from ever taking place.
Here is what would happen if the law was complied with in general (and this part is complied with by the largest American agency AFA):
A man arriving in Moscow for the weekend will try to contact a woman who only reads email at work on weekdays. The agency will be closed for the weekend and so cannot automatically give him her contact info even though she wants her phone number to be given out. He has flown back to the USA by Monday when agency employees process the background check and try to get her to schedule a time to go across town to sign a lousy piece of paper or, if she has email which many women don’t, do an exchange that takes an hour – while the man is already long gone.
Thus, whether the woman and the man need to pay some kind of price to the US Nanny State, they should not be forced to pay the ULTIMATE price, which is not meeting at all, thanks to the US government getting in the way of the introduction process.
A woman was scheduled to sign the form at 9AM and I was scheduled at 9:15 to meet her. The agency employee arrived late and had a fit seeing that she and I were already talking to each other. The dumb employee said “Stop. You are not allowed to talk. She hasn’t signed the IMBRA form yet”.
The book 1984 was about a government stopping a relationship between Winston and Julia.
It is never the legal right of a woman to be forced to know a man’s background check before he can even say hello. Governments have no business getting involved in this radical feminist concept.
Regarding the rumors that Obama is likely to start forcing expats to pay taxes to the emperor, other sites of interest are http://www.expatdailynews.com + http://www.expatcfo.com
Too many Americans have an attitude of telling their fellow citizens (when they feel they themselves are not affected) “Bend over and take this new law up the rectum because you want the benefits of being an American don’t you”.
Sure, I’d be willing to let Obama take an extra $10,000 per year that I could have spent on building a family (or competing with local rich men for the top women abroad), because someone needs to help give free medical care to Mexican immigrants in the States (with no benefit to me or any other expat).
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In my state there is now a law being considered to eliminate no-fault divorce for couples with minor children. An interesting debate rages in the local papers.
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Most relevant to this thread, court documents available at http://www.onlinedatingrights.com show that the Tahirih Justice Center used the argument “Men who date foreign women generally wish to date much younger women and men who date younger women are out to control others and, thus, should be regulated”.
A Clintonite judge agreed with this (11th Federal Circuit, Atlanta).
That is federal court precedent in favor of regulating men who date younger women.
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Jerry, extremely long and impassioned comments comments make you look like a monomaniac, detracting from the credibility of your message. Though to your credit, you use paragraph breaks.
I’d recommend starting a blog where you can lay out your arguments at length, and only post brief food-for-thought comments on other blogs.
Those who are interested or persuaded by your teaser post can follow the link to your blog. Those who don’t care enough to go to your blog will still get a seed of an idea planted in their minds if your comment here is well put and brief.
It’s like approaching a girl: you don’t lay out your case for being a fun date, great lay, solid genetic mateiral, and outstanding LTR materials to a chick at Starbucks. You hook her in with a well-targeted teaser comment.
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Laura–
Women who marry men who make very little money, or are very inconsistent about it perhaps because they’re or often are drunks, or gambling addicts, or who work off the books and can’t be found and so on, can yes often get very little money from their ex hubands regardless of fault. Of course women lie about why their marriages or other really important relationships with men end to a HUGE, MONUMENTAL degree, approaching they almost always hugely twist it in their favor. Men often tell the truth about this or as much of the truth as they know when their wifes leave because she doesn’t doesn’t feel “he understands me or listens to me enough” or “he doesn’t make me feel loved anymore” (read she doesn’t feel compelling love for him anymore), and in each of these vague cases is either secretly cheating but he hasn’t discovered it, or she wants to file for divorce and move him out of his house that he mostly or entirely paid for so she can w/out repercusions (there’s still the atavistic feeling there will be ones.
If he won’t move out when she asks him to, her divorce lawyer will ask if he’s every threatened her bodily harm because if he did, that’s domestic abuse, and when she dials 911 upset and sounding scared or teary the police have been trained to take her seriously and will take her husband into the station (and likely overnight jail he’ll leave out perhaps), and the DA will ask the judge to enter an essentially automatic order of protection the next morning, which will force him to not come back to what used to be his house for at least 3 months and the hearing. He’ll have to higher a lawyer, she’s reped by the DA’s office and won’t and usually will be kept from appearing unless and until it goes to trial. But they don’t want that unless she’s got good evidence but will drag this on for months wanting him to plead and go to feminist reeducation camps on domestic violence, all the while dragging his lawyer at his expense but not a dime to her to hearings intended to pressure him. That’s how it works. I’m a lawyer though not for some time practicing as one and I’ve got lawyer friends.
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Laura-
As well even if the man is a consistent and solid earner, two adults and kids can live a lot more inexpensively as one household than two. Unless something changes such as she gets a job or a better one for money and works longer, there’s less money to go all around.
Women file for divorce more than twice as often as men and really are the ones wanting it or the equivalent more of than that (she’s living w/another man, or hasn’t just cheated w/him but won’t stop and absolutely won’t even consider resuming having sex w/her husband or working on the marriage – how many men who’ve cheated say that? But cheating women often do, or work on marriage for a bit but she can’t stand the idea of sexing her husband “yet” and then resumes with the same lover.
When women file it’s most often for reasons such as feeling it had become “a loveless marriage” read sexless because though he kept trying to seduce his wife, she’s stopped trying with him much less starting out with it’s her duty sex, which can and usually does become enjoyable to women when they still care about their husbands. But no, that’s not the new feminist program and expecting that borders on giving men the right of marital rape they’ll scream, and most definitely do. Well YEAH. That’s the most important reason I was against feminists pushing through this marital rape nonesense as a crime when that happened for the first time ever a couple of decades ago.
But that’s because we have no fault divorce now. Make it fault and the vast majority of women who file for divorce will lie and / or construct abuse stories. They’ll provoke their husbands beyond endurance by making his life a living hell and by pushing all his violence buttons just right, oh so intentionally, to get some marks from him, if that’s what it takes to get divorce due to domestic abuse and hence his fault and his money to her ruling. Yup. And the domestic law courts enormously lean towards the women under VAWA and the divorce law bar. Who’s money comes from women dragging out divorce proceedings by trying to economically rape their husbands, who are forced to fight back, racking up the fees, which often he has to pay on both sides if she hasn’t been working or was part time and has less ready cash before she gets the divorce settlement from him. How it works in feminist America today.
Do you wonder that men don’t want to enter into marriage 2.0 and risk divorce 2.0 or even their wives having that over their heads in marriage Laura?
Of course most men still, the great majority still, may have heard wiffs of these things or know of some terrible hard luck cases for men, but don’t want to believe how bad and titled it really is, even when the wife was FAR more at fault or just stopped trying at all, while the husband never did. They want to think it won’t or can’t happen w/their girl. They too prefer the romantic resolution by marriage and a happy life ever after (mostly) that Hollywood spins.
How many Hollywood movies have protrayed wive’s or their lawyers w/the wife’s ok each step of the way, financially screwing men over when it’s clearly the woman that’s at fault if there’s a presumed duty on each spouse to try their best to make the marriage work?
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Amen, PA.
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Jerry,
I don’t think you should have to pay taxes to the US government if you are not receiving any benefits. Are you working for the US government or a private company?
Also, not everyone has the ability or inclination to move abroad.
Doug,
I didn’t realize family court was quite so unfair to men. There are a lot of male lawyers and judges, I don’t see why they are allowing this to happen.
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Laura–
As well, and this is a crucial point about the mindset on marriage and divorce that feminists with their in accord feminist entertainment media have managed to get changed the last 50 years of so.
Americans now think that marriage is and should be an equal economic partnership no matter how great the disparities of economic and other contributions to that partnership the two spouses make. They haven’t quiet managed to get this completely accepted in extreme examples of male mega stars or empire builders like Mel Gibson or Sir Paul McCartney or Bill Gates. In Britain in fact it wasn’t until 2000 that wealthy men faced the loss of half the increase in their wealth that occurred during their marriage, as what the wife “deserved”. Previously it had been her reasonable needs kind of thing, which tended to mean reasonable in light of what she was used to (which I think is unjust when there’s not eggregious husband fault).
This never used to be remotely t he case when a lot of money was at stake, or even a strong upper middle class amount. Now in the average middle income case half the wealth in a case where he’s a fault even is not so unreasonable. It’s not a huge amount. Esp. when the lawyer’s take (which should never in the end be paid by one party but rather each’s fees deducted from their settlement, but very unfairly that usually doesn’t happen).
Where this has wide applicability though beyond the wealthy or near that, is the feminist meme that’s also now firmly out there in the media, that once a woman marries, it’s her husband’s duty to at least equalize her income and that of the children she’s yanked from him that he typically wants at least true joint physical custody over, with his, as was the case when living together in a single household during marriage.
That’s of course outrageously unfair to the man. It literally makes him her indentured servant, with the state and it’s jails and police force her overseers. She’s no longer giving him sex or other wifely services. Yet he’s supposed to still equalize her income (at least) with his whether or not she works to her full ability to MAKE MONEY as the post divorce counts in many states like Cali will FORCE him to do, or pay her the same amount as if he did, no matter how much that impoverishes him to the point of living out of his car, literally. While she can take fulfilling work that pays a lot less with no scruitiny at all. Up to her. What he does for a loving post divorce while child support and/or alimony payments remain ordered by the courts isn’t up to him at all. Or anyway the payments he has to make as an advertising copy writer which he’s come to hate doing won’t be reduced one iota if he changes careers to work as a print journalist on a paper or magazine.
It’s obscene and it’s a big, dark secrete the media tells no one in any systematic way, unlike countless feminist causes of unfairness and worse to women.
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Laura–
A lot of them are feminists. The family law bar is HEAVILY female and feminist friendly. That’s absolutely true; ask around to divorce lawyers if you or any of your friends know any, and you can get the lawyer to be frank. Well that tends to mostly only happen lawyer to lawyer I’m afraid.
As I explained above, women wanting to soak husbands in divorce after their divorce lawyer has prohibited her from talking to him until the divorce is completely over and then propagandizes her left and right as her girlfriends, some divorced who’ve done the same things to their husbands and want to make it sound the right thing to do, and husbands having to fight tooth and nail to ameloriate that as much as they can, and dragging this out in negotiations endlessly while the husband often pays both sides cause she has less ready cash having worked in a lower paying career as still tends to be women’s privilege to do when they want to which isn’t always but is often, even if they don’t have kid, is where the money is in family law. And custody disputes big time but men have long since now learned that in most states w/out strong joint physical custody presumptions in the law, if she’s not a drug addict it’s a lost cause, ugly, and money down the drain. Huge money.
Family court isn’t remotely fair to men. I don’t know all the reasons why actually or aren’t sure I do, but these are big ones. That it’s the case I’m absolutley sure of.
Oh once in awhile some judges do try to be fair to men. But the laws themselves are so unfair and lilted. Yeah a fair judge to men will tend to make the absolute worst stuff that often happens, not happen in that case.
The solution Laura is for men to live together under a cohab agreement which can be simpler than a prenup but is needed in case feminists work to make living together change automatically into defacto marriage as is the case now in Ontario, Canada after two years. Have kids living together too. Marriage is a feminist rewritten STATE marriage contract, make no mistake about it. One that’s incredibly tilted against men.
Even w/a prenup or lving together w/a cohab, there’s still very high percentage of after tax child support=stealth alimony and VAWA (and in some likely suspect states similar or even slightly worse state statutes) for bs kicking out of his home that he paid and is paying for alone, and so on.
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@Anton Are you saying you agree that comments shouldn’t be encyclopedic or that you somehow agree with IMBRA and the women’s groups that pushed for it?
Sure, I could have just linked to Roissy’s post on the subject a few times.
I could have just written a one-liner saying that the danger of IMBRA is the precedent it sets and the time delay it creates that can often stop people from actually meeting, not in the actual background check itself which dating sites could simply do and have on record without women having to sign affidavits of having specifically read a given record.
My own blog isn’t happening.
The real credibility of this blog is hurt most when manginas make throw-away comments that support feminist positions.
Or when someone implies that VAWA and IMBRA are not important to the rights of all Americans.
@PA is being naive saying that IMBRA doesn’t affect him.
I will continue to mention IMBRA when appropriate but I won’t go into a long detailed comment unless some asshole implies it isn’t important as a legal precedent or that it isn’t a radical feminist law that Roissy vehemently opposes himself.
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Also, Doug writes extremely long comments that theoretically could be on his own blog that he can link to.
Should he do that? Hello no. I agree with most of what he writes and it is fascinating to read it.
He is smart to make it easier for me to read directly rather than make me go elsewhere.
If I don’t have the time to read Doug’s long comments on something I don’t care about, I just skip it.
Those who don’t care about losing their right to say hello to women without government interference, can just skip any long comment I happen to write on that subject.
@Laura – It is only a rumor that Obama wants to eliminate the Foreign Tax Exemption and, thus, start taxing those who receive no benefits from American taxpayer money being used anywhere.
But it is a credible rumor.
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@PA is being naive saying that IMBRA doesn’t affect him.
Jerry, techically everything affects me. The gravitational field of Uranus might divert a clump of interplanetary rocks toward a fatal rendezvous with Earth. But I don’t dwell a whole lot on Uranus.
On the other hand the lollzlzzl guy raises alarms about the fiat masters, you raise alarms about some regulation affecting the finer points of mail order bride regulatory oversight… I think I’ll stickto lolzlzlzlz guy’s screeds. They are a lot more readable than yours.
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Also, Doug writes extremely long comments that theoretically could be on his own blog that he can link to.
Doug’s writing shows mastery of prose and principles of persuasion. He’s readable. He doesn’t sound paranoid. He writes to be understood, not to ‘let it all out.’
Some things he writes about are of peripheral interest to me at best, so I skim through those. Other things are more in line with my hobbyhorsed, and those I read closely.
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Also, Doug stays coherent and on one subject per comment, you go all over the palce. If you wanna go all over the place, be fun like the Lollzlzzlzlzl Guy.
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@PA
So you still disagree with Roissy on IMBRA.
You still don’t get it.
Every blogger has a regular who doesn’t quite “get it”.
If you want to argue the substance of what has been said, do so, but any feminist can just say that discussion of the subject is paranoid.
IMBRA is part of VAWA and both are major elements of the Men’s Rights Movement. Do a Google search.
IMBRA is not about “Mail Order Brides”
It is about government regulation of dating sites with the precedent that the government can interfere in the process of a man meeting a woman.
IMBRA also forces all Americans, regardless of how they met a foreigner, to go through a long harassing background check process on themselves before they can get a visa for someone they want to visit the USA for three months (it is called a fiance visa, but many men used to use it to have a sex partner at home for 3 months).
That is a fact. It is well known and no regular on Roissy needs to agree with the law or try to discredit anyone mentioning it.
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Jerry,
You seem to have a pretty nice life, meeting beautiful women and traveling all over the world. Everyone is subject to stupid rules and regulations at times. Married men living in the United States are potentially dealing with far worse injustices than you are. Just be glad you are not making huge alimony and child support payments to someone.
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I don’t get it. Why is Jerry spending so much energy on this?
If he were truly happy he would be out and about getting laid and not coming on the internet to write a long and angry dissertation.
Do you have anger issues? Is that why you are against background checks and you consider these check harrassing? Oh, FYI…if you submit yourself to the check it’s not harrassment. You see, you volunteer for it.
Oh well, Roissy already moderated out one of my comments so I don’t expect this one to make it through anyway.
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So you still disagree with Roisy on IMBRA.
I don’t know his position on IMBRA. It’s a subject of close to no interest for me.
If you want to argue the substance of what has been said, do so, but any feminist can just say that discussion of the subject is paranoid.
Think of me as your PR coach; an ally, not an adversary. And the coach sez ‘you sound like a paranoiac.’
IMBRA also forces all Americans, regardless of how they met a foreigner, to go through a long harassing background check process on themselves before they can get a visa for someone they want to visit the USA for three months
Any foreigner from a non-waiver country has to go through an onerous process to get a visa into the US. It’s called immigration laws. Agree or disagree with their finer points, theri mere presence is not tyranny, it’s sovereign country regulating access within its borders.
And I know a thing or two about onerous visa laws. I’m a foreign-born US citizen married to a woman from my country of origin. She needed to get a visa to come here, and her family needed to get a visa to come visit us as well.
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@Laura
Yes, the Betas back in the USA do seem to worry about VAWA more because they were stupid enough to get married.
A Google search will show that the Alphas are more concerned with IMBRA and the precedent it sets in terms of interfering with meeting women and seducing them, not the divorce process.
It is no accident that Roissy has posted specifically on IMBRA but not VAWA.
Worrying about what feminists do to Beta Husbands is something I respect, but I am more concerned about what feminists want to do to stop Alphas from seducing women.
Another thing @PA, don’t rely on having fans for being a regular when you often counteract Roissy’s agenda.
He knows you lean social conservative and he just slammed socons in his latest post.
You lost the debate above when you slammed men in general who date overseas, implying like the feminists do that they do so because of failure at home.
@The Realist shut you down with the remark that men who go to Italy to get a Ferrari can’t be accused of having bad driving skills.
If you want to continue arguing that now or in future threads, be OUR guest.
You also lost the debate above when you implied that it was bad for Alpha males to “ruin” virgins.
Guys here always shut you down when you imply that you would shoot any man who tried to date your 18 year old daughter or relative.
It is really too bad that, on many blogs, there is always a regular that has a lot of respect but continually counteracts the blogger’s message on most points.
And you can cut off the condescending crap about being a judge good writing or not. Your posts are rather short and show a lack of depth in knowledge about most issues.
You are not going to win any debate saying that IMBRA is supposedly just about the “finer points of regulating mail order brides ” rather than “government regulation of the process of men meeting women.” You have already admitted to having a stick up your butt about it being immoral for American men to “ruin” foreign women.
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Jerry–
Thanks for telling us this Jerry. I didn’t know that.
I thought IMBRA only applied when men went through certainly dating services w/a higher percentage of American/foreign women matchups and then wanted to bring her here eventually.
It’s worse than I thought. Well that’s almost always true for men when the dig deeper and learn more about domestic relations laws and courts in the US.
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Laura–
Oh the piece I had in mind but forget to tie together for you above when discussing the heavily female slanted interests of the family law bar, was that it essentially determines who can be a family law judge. They’re “elevated” from amongst this bar. Good low hours but high status and perks, working conditions, job for a married or divorced w/alimony woman btw and they’re a whole lot of them on the family law courts.
The family law bar has committees chock full of female and male feminists and all of whom know where the money (and white knighting, media approval) interests of the family law bar lie, which review and evaluate each family law court judge before they’re named by a mayor or his underlings or I suppose elected in some places. This review is presented as one by impartial legal experts in the field. Only the approved get a shot at selection.
See how it works?
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Jerry,
You do have a point. American women don’t have the benefit of being able to run a background check on every potential date. The have to try and be a good judge of character on their own. I know a woman who was conned out of a lot of money because she was not very cautious.
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[I don’t know his position on IMBRA]
In other words, @PA, you didn’t read the two posts above where I linked to Roissy’s vehement position on the issue.
Here it is again. Read and the call Roissy “paranoic”:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/repeal-the-imbra-now/
In fact, if you want to argue now or in the future that IMBRA is no big deal, argue with me on that post.
The problem @PA is it isn’t true that the subject doesn’t interest you.
While it is true that you insist on remaining ignorant about what IMBRA is and what Roissy has to say about it, you’ve often forced an argument that didn’t have to take place.
And there is a reason for that: You’ve admitted to having a stick up your butt about foreign virgins being “ruined” by American men and you agree with Marxist feminist theory on this point.
You never really argue with any kind of knowledge of the subject and – to top it off – you’ve already said once that you agree that IMBRA is unconstitutional.
@GT One can ask what you, @PA or Roissy are doing posting online instead of having sex. It is an intellectual pursuit to post sometimes.
It is well known that MRAs are less angry at what feminists do but with the mangina way “males” carry water for the feminists…especially when socially conservative “males” adopt feminist positions out of “chivalry”.
It is common for feminists to argue that those who oppose their legislation are “paranoic” or having “anger issues”.
It is common for feminists to say that men who post online are obviously not out having fun with women (at that time), which is supposed to imply they don’t have a date in an hour.
To see “men” argue the feminist line is sickening and has to be challenged, especially when it is clear that a regular insists on doing this.
I have to set @PA straight because this will be seen on Google searches and feminists do not need to see him carrying water for them and saying that those who insist on overturning IMBRA are “paranoic”.
For this reason alone, Roissy should set @PA straight on IMBRA.
If you read what I wrote above, IMBRA would be OK if it just outrageously forced men to be background checked before they could belong to a dating site as a member.
What makes IMBRA harassment is that it tells foreign women they have no right to decide what their own level of security should be by saying that they *must* sign an affidavit in writing each time a man wants to spontaneously contact them. This “signature process” can result in delays that has often caused people not to meet at all even though the woman wanted to.
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And a common comment on any PUA thread would be “don’t forget that older American women passed the IMBRA law in order to cock-block American men in their attempts to date the younger and less feminist competition”.
No need for friendly fire on this point. It is a truth.
No need to carry water for feminists by pretending this is *only* about being background checked before being allowed to say hello to women.
@Doug
Whenever anyone has argued with me on this, other men who were lurking have stepped up and said “OMG, I didn’t know about this law” or “I didn’t know the law was that bad”
So it is good to hash them out a bit.
There are a lot of bad laws being made now.
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IMBRA also forces all Americans, regardless of how they met a foreigner, to go through a long harassing background check process on themselves before they can get a visa for someone they want to visit the USA for three months (it is called a fiance visa, but many men used to use it to have a sex partner at home for 3 months).
No shit. You’re trying to bring a foreigner into the US, and put him or her on a path toward permanent residency and citizenship. Do you have any idea what a huge industry fraudulent marriage is?
Jerry, also, I never said I don’t want IMBRA overturned. I don’t care one way or another. I don’t even care enough to google it or know more facts about it.
I think my point is to egg you on because your long retorts are becoming fun to read.
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By the way, I am online now because I am doing my taxes and I have to go back and forth with someone on that.
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[I don’t even care enough to google it or know more facts about it.]
Or care enough to click on the link to Roissy’s post on it and read it.
Many blogs get anti-intellectual regulars.
FreeRepublic is a great example of a forum that went downhill after 6 years because some regulars who had no real lives, got entrenched and started developing their own idea of what “grassroots conservatism” was supposed to be.
FreeRepublic.com was the Roissy Blog of the late 90s and early to mid 2000s. Men there were constantly saying things that Roissy now says.
But starting in 2006, regulars turned to chivalry and started to get all the male members banned who were OK with premarital sex or not down with Marxist feminist talk of “human trafficking”, etc. Roissy was probably a regular poster there but I bet he was one of the thousands of men who got banned after 2006.
[You’re trying to bring a foreigner into the US, and put him or her on a path toward permanent residency and citizenship. Do you have any idea what a huge industry fraudulent marriage is?]
IMBRA background checks the “American” not the foreigner. Other laws already had the foreigner being checked to see if she was being fraudulent or not.
It is Constitutional to check out the foreigner, but not for your own government to play tattle tale on matters like whether you have kids or not which would be the woman’s responsibility to find out on her own.
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And for those with ADS who willfully don’t want to understand Roissy’s post on it:
IMBRA first imposes background checks on the process of meeting women online (the current version of the law only deals with sites with more than 50% foreign women but the proponents want this for all dating sites).
This stops the Alphas who might want to keep that avenue to date and get laid open.
IMBRA then imposes heavy duty background checks on the Americans who bring foreigners into the USA. This causes severe delays which is what feminists want in order to stop the competition from entering the country.
It effects not only the Betas who want to marry but those men who want someone to come into the US on a 90 day fiance visa so they can have sex for 90 days.
Social conservatives in the Supreme Court are likely to overthrow all of this, especially the first part.
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Or care enough to click on the link to Roissy’s post on it and read it.
I graduated from high school and college a long time ago. I only read things I want to, unless I’m paid for reading other things. So nah, I don’t feel like following the links you provided, sorry.
If you wanna know, have read every article our host has written on his blog. I have tremendous respect for his writing and agree with him on most things.
Our areas of disagreement are minor in the grand scheme of the threads that roll through here: He’s atheist, I’m Catholic. He is against marriage and kids, I’m for, if done right. He’s for butthex, I prefer to avoid that hole.
Many blogs get anti-intellectual regulars.
I’m highly intellectual, just way over your head.
Roissy was probably a regular poster there but I bet he was one of the thousands of men who got banned after 2006.
A wild conjecture. But sure, use it since you so clearly cry for him ito swoop in and save you in every one of your arguments.
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It effects […] those men who want someone to come into the US on a 90 day fiance visa so they can have sex for 90 days.
Now here is a morally persuasive argument for repealing IMBRA!
Um, if she so under your alpha spell that she wants to take a 90-day sex vacation in a foreign country just for you, what’s stopping her from getting a tourist visa and entertaining you for 90 days under The Feminists’ radar?
By the way, gender is a social construct and phallo-oppressors should be summarily castrated for committing the crime of male gaze.
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PA–
I thought about that too right away.
Though I wonder how easy tourist visas to the US are to get in many parts of the world. It’s probably a lot easier for a Dutch girl to get one, than and Indonesian or Philippines one.
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Jerry,
Another reason you might not be getting as much support as you would like from these dating agencies is possibly your approach. Saying that you want to meet someone for a long term relationship or marriage is very different then saying you want to have someone be your personal sex slave for three months. Maybe that is why they are giving you such a hard time. How many women does one man need?
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Laura–
I know you’ve said your 35 and married and so are way to young to have a 25yo son, but imagine for a moment that you do have one.
Having read all this here, what would you advise him about getting married in America today?
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@Laura
You misunderstand what the discussion is about. We are talking about a law, not about any dating agencies not supporting a customer or not. The law affects all sorts of dating sites, not just those that say they want to help people get married.
I barely use the sites two or three times a year at most when an email arrives showing a 10 with the right characteristics. The sites I use don’t comply with IMBRA.
This type of wild misunderstanding of what is being discussed will probably end in the near future when bloggers have the technology to offer bi-weekly Skype-like discussions where everyone can verbally discuss a post and crazy misunderstandings can be set to rest.
@PA
[I don’t feel like following the links you provided]
[I’m highly intellectual, just over your head]
No comment needed.
[A wild conjecture. But sure, use it since you so clearly cry for him ito swoop in and save you in every one of your arguments]
A wild conjecture that Roissy probably knew http://www.FreeRepublic.com well before feminists and White Knighters took over? I would bet good money he used to comment there and maybe still does.
Regarding wanting him to set you straight on IMBRA, this is the only issue where you need him to set you straight.
Otherwise we are going to keep butting heads on the issue.
He digs at your socon beta attitudes all the time otherwise, just not mentioning you by name.
And you do “get it” on a lot of things. It is not as if you are as bad as David Alexander, who was also a regular.
They treat you with kid gloves because you “get it” on some things but you keep getting trounced by several men whenever you bring up aberrant views like:
1) You would like to commit violence on an older man who would date your 18 year old daughter.
2) You are a foreign man yourself but think men who date foreign women were somehow rejected by prettier and classier American women. You did not admit defeat when The Realist said something like “men who go to Stuttgart to buy a Mercedes cannot be accused of having poor driving skills”.
And you continue to lie about being uninterested in IMBRA because you say you agree with it (although you have in fact said once that you were against it).
[what’s stopping her from getting a tourist visa and operating under the feminist radar]
The feminists in the consulates.
I have gotten women into the USA on business visas after they made themselves look ugly and old plus faked being married to someone back home.
I also advised them to get a male visa interviewer.
But most gorgeous young East European women were being denied tourist visas for the longest while and most still are (FSU members especially).
But you just repeated that you don’t WANT American men to be able to get foreign women into the USA for 90 days of sex.
QED: IMBRA interests you a lot @PA. You agree with its general anti-male flavor even though you don’t bother to study it and read what Roissy has to say about it.
The reason the IMBRA background checks prevent people from meeting at all is not because of the checks themselves (they are 99% clean because men fill them out on the honor system) but the harassing process of forcing the foreigner to sign an affidavit saying she (or he) agrees to learn something about the American other than in the background check.
The American is not allowed to say hello and show his personality or, in the case that he might have a DUI on the record, explain.
Since the men fill out the background form themselves, they are in fact background checking themselves. This would be a farce if all the dating site had to do was keep the form on record in case a woman requested it. But the people who wrote the law knew the real harassment was in forcing the foreigner to sign the affidavit in writing, thus causing logistical delays of up to several days or weeks.
And men are on record saying they flew home without meeting the woman they wanted to meet and then got a late letter from the woman when he reads his email when the plane lands back home in the States.
Feminists and some sick social conservatives (mostly White Knighters and fat church ladies) want that to happen, regardless of what the man’s “intentions” were.
[editor: i’ve never commented at the free republic website, or even read it.]
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Doug1 Though I wonder how easy tourist visas to the US are to get in many parts of the world. It’s probably a lot easier for a Dutch girl to get one, than and Indonesian or Philippines one.
I’m not an expert on this, but I think all western European countires are on a visa waiver program; their citizens can fly in at will, though there may be restrictions as to their duration of stay. But again, I’m not an authority on this.
I do know that Poles need to get a visa to visit the US. It was extremely difficult to get one prior to around 2005 unless you could prove that you are extremely unlikely to overstay the visa. Usually by demonstrating high income and assets. Today it’s almost a gimme, though still requires a $300 fee and a trip to the US embassy in Warsaw.
With poorer countires, I imagine it’s harder to get a visa.
But the spirit of my reply to Jerry was topoke at the absurdity of his scenario of having girls all over the world lining up to drop everything and fly over to have sex with him for 90 days.
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@PA
[I’ve read every one of Roissy’s posts]
But you think having sex with virgins “ruins” them and you openly admit to not having read THIS post:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/repeal-the-imbra-now/
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Doug’s been making a great series of comments from Game to Marriage 2.0
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[But the spirit of my reply to Jerry was topoke at the absurdity of his scenario of having girls all over the world lining up to drop everything and fly over to have sex with him for 90 days.]
That is your pro-feminist socon way of putting it complete with embellished slander (“lining up”).
You really like IMBRA don’t you @PA.
What a fucking girly man you are.
Since I don’t live in the USA, I don’t mind this part of the law keeping guys in America from being able to spend 90 days *dating* a woman they would like to get to know longer than a 4 day weekend in Moscow.
And @Doug, this part of the law has created a delay for all Americans who want a foreigner who cannot get a tourist visa easily to visit for dating purposes for 90 days.
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Doug,
I have one unmarried younger brother and two young sons. I would like to see them get married and have children. It would be okay if they didn’t, of course, it isn’t my life to live. However, I have to admit I would advise them to be very, very cautious about who they marry. Bottom line though, the laws have to change. Men can’t be expected to be able to predict a woman’s behavior years in the future, things have be set up fairly in the first place. It seems like it is ultimately disastrous and unsustainable for a society to have one gender being treated as second class citizens and that seems to be what we have done with men in this country.
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@Laura
[Men can’t be expected to be able to predict a woman’s behavior years in the future, things have be set up fairly in the first place. It seems like it is ultimately disastrous and unsustainable for a society to have one gender being treated as second class citizens and that seems to be what we have done with men in this country.]
Exactly, but concentrating on the domestic part of VAWA that deals with marriage, along with family court issues, is more Beta for a man to be concerned about than things like IMBRA and other laws that try to interfere between men and women at the dating stage well before marriage.
PUAs who have decided not to get married, at least in the next decade or so, aren’t going to care about MRM issues like much of VAWA and the Family Courts.
I like to see guys discuss VAWA and the courts on Roissy’s blog, but I can imagine a lot of young men tuning out thinking that men who get married deserve what they get.
That isn’t to say I’m not very well informed on VAWA myself.
I will support all men’s rights issues.
Friendly fire doesn’t help anyone.
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Jerry wrote: “@GT One can ask what you, @PA or Roissy are doing posting online instead of having sex. It is an intellectual pursuit to post sometimes.”
True it is but I still don’t get why you put so much energy into it? What dog do you have in this fight? I’m still not following. If you are so successful why do you even bother. I’m trying to understand the axe you are grinding. Were you hurt by a feminist? Did you get creamed in divorce?
You know, between anti-male feminist screed and the angry pro-male men’s rights activists I have to wonder if you both aren’t the two sides of the same coin.
If feminism is one big shit test, I would think reacting angrily shows you have failed the test.
Oh and wow! My last post made it through moderation…whew.
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For Betas who would get married to a foreign woman without getting to know her much, VAWA has a really nasty component whereby foreign women who marry American men can get instant citizenship by instantly claiming he tried to lock her in his basement the moment she got off the plane and went home with him.
This part of VAWA is designed to:
1) Discourage men from considering foreign women
2) Fill the USA with like-minded victims who can then be trained and sent back to their home countries with large salaries and a budget via International VAWA to transform the home countries into bastions of feminism.
iVAWA is up for a vote soon in Congress. It would be great if Renegade can do a post on that.
$ billion per year for foreign feminist groups.
And Obama wants to make expat males pay taxes for that.
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Nicole
I’m just noticing it. Because Xsplat quoted it.
Yes unlike him I’m not going to make fun of you about that insight at all. I think/know you’re absolutely right. The degree of ruin does vary w/the girl, but yeah there’s a hardening. That’s never totally softened again as much.
However girls are also ruined by being sluts. It’s a little different. It’s not heart break. But it is a great weakening of the force of great sex with a partner to make her feel fair bonded. (And much more so just the good sex she might have with a subsequent beta husband after riding the alpha cock slut’s carousel.)
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Laura–
I’m very happy to hear you say this and the other things in you do in this comment.
Would you agree then that in the meantime, if they are going to marry and have children, that you’d advise your brother and sons to at least insist upon a more male friendly and protecting prenup as opposed to naked American divorce law 2.0, and to walk away from any prospective wife who can’t be persuaded, after learning thing such as are presented here about what current law really does do in divorce?
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And agreeing beforehand to paternity tests for any kids!
Cuckoldry is at least at 10%. Imagine paying child support for a child who is someone else’s kid and thus supporting/having to deal with a woman who would do that to you.
Cuckoldry is actually so much part of mainstream culture now that it was a subject of atleast a whole season of the popular show ‘Glee’.
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@GT
A bigger question is where do you get the energy to enable feminism like this?
How many times do I have to say that those in the MRM are not angry at feminists but shocked at the beta boy enablers who carry water for feminists.
Enablers will say “why post about men’s rights?” and think that argument can be taken seriously.
The bigger question is where do you get the energy to try to discredit MRM issues. Better to read the links and sites I provided.
Check out http://www.MensNewsDaily.com and http://www.GlennSacks.com for starters.
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Doug,
Yes. I think prenups are a good idea. I wonder how many people get them?
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Laura–
Men and women w/several millions at time of marriage, either one usually do, even though a million today is like 100k in the 1930s say, when millionaire became such a bandied word.
They’re real common in male second marriage whether or not he had kids by the first. His eyes will have been opened unless it was a both poor as church mice divorce, in which case his eyes may have been lulled shut.
Hollywood actresses marrying less well off or not on as possibly high a trajectory men virtually always get them and theirs are generally tough as hell, like I recommend. Or even without the her abandoning him for no truly compelling reason exception I’m willing to offer women (w/the genders reversed).
Similarly with NYC and I’d imagine other mover and shaker American cities where the woman is a high trajectory professional who’s planning on staying in her career but her fiance is an artier type etc.
Though because generally women are money and likely future earnings hypergamous about men as well as re: their broader alphatude to the extent they can swing it, a lot more men want prenups than women.
But not say more male Hollywood stars than female ones. Only time a female one doesn’t want one is when she’s marrying a bigger or likely longer career male one, or a tycoon. Male stars sometimes get chivalrously talked out of them; women ones about never these days.
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Doug,
I would think that a lot of woman would be open to changing these laws. First of all many women make good money and so they wouldn’t be in any way poor if their marriages didn’t work out. Housework is easier now and men do more of it, so it’s not like anything she does around the house deserves a lifetime of support. Childcare is still a full time job when they are young (men also do a lot of that), but most children are in school by age 5. It sounds like the divorce laws are outdated.
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Oh come on. Who hasn’t already loved and lost before finishing high school?
Heart break is inescapable. Is there one person here who has not experienced serious heartbreak? I doubt I have enough fingers to count mine.
When I was 29 I dated a 48 year old woman. She’d been around and around the block. We had incredible chemistry. She was my first and only squirter. Anyway, she felt like a teenager again. It’s never too late to feel that feeling.
Yes, people harden. Roissy was talking about that. But some of us choose to remain susceptible, and some of us can’t help but remain susceptible. Some of us fall in love ten times in a trip to through the grocery store. Some people remain pliable and young, through lifes vicissitudes.
Heartbreak doesn’t always harden. And even after it does, some of us will soften up enough. Maybe not to the same degree as before, but thank god for that! Love is a partial insanity. Why go completely insane, when just the right dose will do?
Women too in love are way too clingy anyway. When mine get that way I tell them to back off for a while.
Puppies mock fight. Children have puppy love. Both are training for the real thing. Adults have starter relationships. Continuing education. Education can be good.
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Comment in mod, Doug.
I don’t think any of us has ever avoided heartbreak. Yes, it toughens us. Sometimes that leads to more balance. Its rare heartbreak toughens too much, from what I’ve seen. Or maybe I’m just so loveable?
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I’ll repost without the quotes – maybe this will get past mod.
Who hasn’t already loved and lost before finishing high school?
Heart break is inescapable. Is there one person here who has not experienced serious heartbreak? I doubt I have enough fingers to count mine.
When I was 29 I dated a 48 year old woman. She’d been around and around the block. We had incredible chemistry. She was my first and only squirter. Anyway, she felt like a teenager again. It’s never too late to feel that feeling.
Yes, people harden. Roissy was talking about that. But some of us choose to remain susceptible, and some of us can’t help but remain susceptible. Some of us fall in love ten times in a trip to through the grocery store. Some people remain pliable and young, through lifes vicissitudes.
Heartbreak doesn’t always harden. And even after it does, some of us will soften up enough. Maybe not to the same degree as before, but thank god for that! Love is a partial insanity. Why go completely insane, when just the right dose will do?
Women too in love are way too clingy anyway. When mine get that way I tell them to back off for a while.
Puppies mock fight. Children have puppy love. Both are training for the real thing. Adults have starter relationships. Continuing education. Education can be good.
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Laura–
It’s much worse than being outdated. They were better for men 15 years ago than they are today. Long time alimony is coming back, and alimony for a women who was working at time of divorce just not making as much as her husband is also coming back, e.g. in California and other states. For about the last 10 years I think California feminists have instituted alimony anytime the wife earns less by a Computer formula to be paid for half the duration of the marriage if it’s been for less than 10 years, and FOR LIFE!!!!! if the marriage is of 10 or more years duration. Note her earnings potential (unlike his) isn’t really considered, just her current earnings.
So if the wife was a corp. lawyer in a BigLaw firm on solid partner track which would mean many hundreds of k dollars, but then after 5 years left to bear and raise infants with noises from the firm about their wanting her back when she’s ready, but she decides when she does go back to work w/her kids in school she wants a much lower stress, more interesting to her legal or law related job, and then they divorce 11 years into the marriage, the court is gonna compare her 70k/yr earnings to his 400k working as a mid partner in a similar firm, and order him to pay her lifetime alimony based on that gap, with her able to petition and get higher if/when his income substantially increase. Lifetime Laura!!! She’s free to switch around to another even more fun lower pay job if she wishes. Meanwhile he can’t do something similar, and take say a job working for the mayor or in Washington and have his alimony extractions adjusted for his new income. Oh no. It’s his proven or judge determined potential income that the court order alimony extractions from him will be based upon.
How’s them apples Laura? And how is that not getting worse for men, as women’s ability to strongly earn is clearly proven all over the place now?
Remember all this applies if she’s cheated or wanted to and so left the marriage, rather than him actually do anything seriously wrong. It’s also on top of child support and after he’s lots the house he mostly paid for and what was in it, and more than half the rest of his earnings.
Any man who knows the score and would marry w/out a prenup GREATLY cutting back on this is nuts.
I include middle middle class men, esp. w/respect to her waiving all rights to alimony. Or I think to the house or half you net savings over hers if she abandons you for no compelling reason. She can go but not w/your money other than very rich after tax percentage child support.
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It does seem really unfair to obligate a man to pay lifetime alimony to a woman. We live way too long for that.
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Yes, if only there were a final solution to that pesky alimony problem…
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Laura–
In California I’d pretty much advise any man who’s been married for 9 years to tell his wife that he’s either going to have to divorce her though he still loves her to bits and wants to stay with her, cause of this lifetime alimony after ten years thing they’ve fairly recently put through in California, or she’s gonna have to agree to a postnup agreeing to waive alimony. Oh to get a job, if she hasn’t already. I’m serious.
If he’s forced to divorce her he can say he’d be open to remarrying w/a prenup, as soon as possible. Or she can just help the two of them avoid the drama and boosted lawyers costs w/a postnup
Yes postnups are enforceable. They just tend to be very hard to get wives who see benefits from the law in the bank, agree to. Credible threat of divorce with a real looming deadline like California’s change that equation.
Filing for divorce is how they date things. Her dragging it out until after the 10 year time won’t work for her.
If you live in Cali and have been married for less than 10 years, yes that’s what I’d advise your husband to do with you.
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It’s unfair to obligate anyone to pay any alimony at all. It’s slavery.
Once the relationship dissoves, if there are no children between them, you just have two people. Each of those people should be pulling their own weight for themselves since they’re no longer in a symbiotic relationship with each other.
They should also leave with what they came in with. Property acquired during the marriage/cohabitation should go to whoever paid for it.
That may not be exactly fair, but the person has the option of being generous if they want to be. If they don’t then they should be allowed to roll their money and shove it up their ass.
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On reflection I advice any man married in California w/out the right kind of prenup, or any other state that provides for automatic alimony for half the marriage’s duration if less than 10 years, and lifetime alimony thereafter (one court in NJ said a 7yr marriage was long enough for lifetime alimony) to tell his wife:
i) I love you dearly and want to stay married to you forever, but I have to protect myself from these terrible misandrous divorce laws the feminists have gotten enacted in our state, so I’m gonna have to divorce you. Oh I’ll remarry you with a prenup, but I’ve got to divorce you.
ii) Unless you’ll sign a postnup, which would be a lot cheaper for both of us, and need cause no heartache.
iii) It’s about this lifetime alimony thing after 10 or even 7 years now in NJ, if you do leave me sometime in the future as wives to 2.5 times as often as men, while forcing men to divorce another large percentage of the time by refusing to give up lovers or resume sex w/their husbands.
iv) oh and the kids are in school now darling. YOu need to get a job. You really do.
You wanna know something. Do the right way this is likely to make her attraction to you and appreciation of you stronger. Oh she’ll be shocked, infuriated, mad as hell, cry, carry one, scream it’s obvious you don’t love her and must never have loved her and so on. The full female repetory. Every last stop. This is serious baseball and she’ll keep it up too.
Just be a rock. You love her. You’ll gladly remarry her, she’s see. But with some fair legal protection for you, not wholly under the feminist state imposed marriage contract you didn’t sign or know you were doing that, but were. One they can make worse for you anytime.
When she calms down she’s realize she really could lose you. She’ll realize you’ll be a lot poorer but so will she, and this wasn’t something she initiated but you’ve got the guts to do. She’ll realize she doesn’t call all the shots. She’ll realize you pretty damn gutsy and resolute w/her when you feel you need to be. She’ll want you more. Unless she was biding her time to leave you herself. In which case the sooner the better for you. Those alimony halves keep getting bigger. That money you have to give her increases. And so on.
Do it.
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Women are hard-wired to demand separation pay.
Women are hard-wired to socially create reality.
Ergo – women did what they were hard wired to do, and that is create a system where they can demand separation pay.
Now, what are men hard wired to do in counter balance to women’s innate tendencies?
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Nicole
I would remotely consider marrying a woman who won’t agree to waive all alimony under all circumstances period. Just won’t even consider it.
To the feminist argument that she stayed home and raised kids I say that if she did past their starting school she was living a very cushy life and that was totally her choice. Plenty of women hardly take off from work at all but instead breast pump and work and w/husband hire someone to care and bottle feed her breast milk w/some supplements as needed. But if she wants to care for the infants and preschools ok. ‘But it’s still a way less stressful job than mine and soon a pretty easy and highly rewarding one, and all the while she’s getting “paid big bucks” by being my wife and enjoying my support while married.
So forget your feminist crap about forgone earnings. Her choice and her tradeoffs w/her the big winner really.
Forget too the notion that a man should equalize his ex wife’s income w/his own after she leaves him, just cause she has his kids which she refuses to fully share w/joint physicial custody.
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I mean if you’ve been married 9 years one 1 year, theaten to divorce her and mean it if she won’t give you a postnup.
That is if you don’t have the right kind of prenup and you’re in a state which has more than short fixed (often no more than 3 years) duration alimony, but rather half the marriage length alimony, plus lifetime after 10 years marriage.
you’ll remarry her w/a prenup, assure her.
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xsplat
Well they’re hard wired to band together to get the best deal they can from men, yes.
Thing is they’ve demanded and won seperation pay not just when they’re fired by their husbands, but also when they quite for no good reason, to go to another firm.
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Markku, next you’ll tell us that the world’s biggest gang bang was all about trying to win the heart of the woman at the center of it.
I do not tell such things, I tell it like it is.
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“Women are hard-wired to demand separation pay.”
You have a good point. As much as I think the current alimony laws are unfair, I would have trouble willingly walking away empty handed. Maybe it would be different if I had a good job.
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Laura
1) if the kids are in school I’d want you to get a good job, though not necessarily a high stress or long hours job. Best kind of one would be one you had some advanced training for prof. or otherwise before, but were now working part time or light hours, but could change that if need be in a divorce.
2) women are overwhelmingly the ones who cause divorces in America today Laura, one way or another. Oh sure, men could do more to relationship game their wives and should to keep the juices all up and going as much as is long marriage feasible and so on, but women could also learn enough about gender dynamics to learn how much her nagging and other betaization efforts against her husband urged or at least ok’ed by our entertainment media make her unhappy in the long run. But beyond all that, you don’t have to divorce him. Women used not to very much despite vastly worse from many husbands say 100 years ago.
It’s simply hugely unfair to men. I’d never marry any women w/out her waiving all alimony under all circumstances Laura.
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It’s ONE sexual strategy. The whole beta provider thing is just ONE strategy. Not everyone is into it. Not all men, not all women. If the beta provider as backbone of society jive was anything other than back rationalizing predilections than there would be no female dual mating strategy. Hell, women even have more than two – two is just shorthand for not only into the whole beta thing.
Your litmus test for improvement tests only one chemical, not ph.
It’s very true that humans are diverse on the K-r continuum. However, those regions populated by people among whom K-strategy is predominant tend to be target destinations of vast amounts of net immigration from the r-dominated areas.
K-strategy is the foundation of a superior society. The most r-dominated placed on Earth tend to shitholes people are desperate to flee from.
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Laura–
That’s a whole lot of the point of prenups Laura. They’d make women a whole lot less likely to just walk away.
Now w/out kid, if they aren’t feeling the should walk away, either sex, but in that case they should both be working and not take away money or future support from the other. In my book they shouldn’t marry unless / until both want kids right away.
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xsplat–
There wasn’t much of one for the vast majority of women during civilizational history.
They are important in literature and other story telling though.
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Even within the higher IQ K spectrum societies, you’ll find niches wherein R selection has value. Would you prefer a society without poets and artists? Or do you think the police class are enough?
You see, these social castes are genetically diverse. That’s my theory. My theory is that the cad strategy leads to cad babies. Wait – that’s not my theory at all. That’s the mainstream sociobioloigical theory of dual mating strategies – right? The cad genes are a caste that lives among us.
If they were not beneficial, socially, they would weakened the societies they were in enough to cause those societies to lose wars.
The cultural degenerate rated R selection belly dancers and sufi poets are a cultureal boon.
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Jerry Ertans wrote: “A bigger question is where do you get the energy to enable feminism like this?
How many times do I have to say that those in the MRM are not angry at feminists but shocked at the beta boy enablers who carry water for feminists.
Enablers will say “why post about men’s rights?” and think that argument can be taken seriously.”
You need to answer my question first. Where do you get that I have energy to enable feminism “like this”? Where did that come from? Do you mean the type of feminism that interferes with IMBRA? As I already mentioned, I don’t give a hoot about IMBRA. I have zero intention of going overseas for a bride, or a girlfriend.
Let me rephrase the question. Since you live in another country, what do you care what happens in USA. What business is it to you? What is your personal story/point of view?
I noticed that you, indirectly, hurled the insult of ‘beta boy enabler who carry water for feminist.’ Is that what happened to you? I want to know your story.
Another thing I would like to point out is this. Seems to me to be a bit of a hassle to go overseas to get a woman. Is that the amount of power differential needed between you and a woman before you feel like a man?
All this fear of feminism. I think its easier to learn to identify the nutzos and avoid them. Then again, what goes around comes around. If you keep running into nutzos, maybe you attract them because you yourself are nutzo….think about it.
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“There wasn’t much of one for the vast majority of women during civilizational history. ”
What leads you to that conclusion?
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xsplat —
Most marriages were arranged ones though usually w/a girl veto but only a limited range of choices often /usually presented one at a time by her parents/relatives. The consequences of female cheating were severe unless she did so w/someone way higher up who could give her protection. That higher up was probably a good K catch as well at least as much as r or he wouldn’t usually be able to offer such protection. The cheating with the exciting bad boy was stopped by threat of severe beatings and social scorn in the lower classes and being throw out without her kids and little to no money in the more middling ones. In the upper classes there was more room to maneuver but again mostly upward unless she were richer than her husband and retained control of her money on divorce or being seperated and cast out of his house. There was also social scorn here but that depended on the civilization and it’s degree of decadence at the time, vs. stricter relgious/Confucian following periods. True from China to India to Europe.
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Xsplat–
I’m not saying that many women don’t have a latent dual r and K strategy if that isn’t totally trained out of them growing up or out of the vast majority of them, and isn’t greatly discouraged by the civilization, but rather that it overwhelming has been in civilizations.
So too in most but not all hunter gather bands. Though marriages there are often a lot less long. Still in only the minority is the wife’s cheating not badly punished, unlike the husband’s usually. Though there can be consequences for the alter depending on his status vs. her family’s.
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GT asks, “Since you live in another country, what do you care what happens in USA. What business is it to you?”
I can’t answer for others, but I can for myself.
The disease is spreading, and I personally have been affected by it. I don’t want to see the same crap happen to Israel that has happened in the U.S.
The U.S. has enough people to still breed and recover from all this.
Israel does not. The Jewish and undesignated combined, lost the majority here years ago, and it’s going to get worse.
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“…but rather that it overwhelming has been in civilizations.”
Ya, I got that you felt that way. But why?
And sure, in societies social taboos are punished. But why do you think those punishments were effective?
Just a feeling? A hope?
From what I’ve seen of traditional Muslim and Catholic societies, I’d guess a rate of cuckolding that would exceed your guess.
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Laura says, “You have a good point. As much as I think the current alimony laws are unfair, I would have trouble willingly walking away empty handed. Maybe it would be different if I had a good job.”
If the man you loved and built your whole life around decided that you weren’t good enough or otherwise betrayed you, I am sure that you could find it in you to tell him that you want nothing from him but your quick and drama free freedom.
That is, if you loved him.
If a guy is just a credit card with an incubator to a woman, she wants to get paid. If she loved him and he broke her heart, her feelings are going to be completely different.
She wants the earth to open up and swallow her. The next best thing is to just leave and try to rebuild herself without any contact with him.
Money is nothing when you love someone more than your own life, and they throw that back in your face.
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Laura–
You wouldn’t be empty handed. If you had school age kids, you’d get a very high percentage of your ex husbands after take (take home) income as child support+stealth alimony. If you didn’t,what’s your excuse for not working in this day and age? In fact what’s you excuse for not working at least part time when your kids are in school and light full time by the time they’re in middle school? What with washing machines, dishwashers, vacuums, refrigerator, all kinds of labor saving odd and ends, and husbands propagandized to help out the more hours their wives spend working (which I don’t disagree with).
You just wouldn’t get any part of his wealth under my prenup unless he abandoned you and the marriage for no compelling reason (your not regularly best efforts sexing him or blowing up so fat that he no longer much wanted you being compelling reasons if continued for a length of time). If he did abandon the marriage though w/out compelling reason you’d get half. Up to a cap but capped at a very large number that only affects the upper upper middle class, or upper class.
You’d also get no alimony under any circumstances ever under my prenup. But yeah half my money if I left you for a younger hot woman.
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Doug,
Go watch the videos Puma included in his comments on the post about “Want A Happy Relationship? Make Sure Your Girl Never Rises Above You in Status”. If you think the divorce laws are bad in California, you won’t even believe what is going on in Massachusetts.
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Laura–
I plan to watch the videos, thanks Laura.
Yeah I know a little about the situation in Mass. But want to learn more.
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What men should keep in mind is that it’s not where you’re married that’s relevant. It’s your state of primary residence at the time she FILES for divorce.
So if your wife moves to Mass to take a new exciting job, leaving you to finish the school year off seeing to your hs kids w/hired help and transferring yourself 8 months later, tell her if she makes the move you’ll immediately file for divorce. Or letter her make it first and then do, cause that’s what she’s likely planning.
She wants lifetime alimony, that won’t ever be adjusted down no matter what, just up.
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Doug,
I am not looking to take advantage of anyone, I just meant that if my husband and I walked away with everything that only our respective incomes bought, he would get almost everything and I would end up with very little. I agree with you that if I leave my husband, unless his behavior is egregious, he shouldn’t be financially obligated to me. If I’ve been a good wife and he leaves me I do think he should have to pay something, although within reason. For me under your prenup it would a really bad idea for me to initiate divorce, I probably would not do it. I do realize that I need to start earning some money on my own.
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@Nicole
[GT asks, “Since you live in another country, what do you care what happens in USA. What business is it to you?”
I can’t answer for others, but I can for myself.
The disease is spreading, and I personally have been affected by it. I don’t want to see the same crap happen to Israel that has happened in the U.S.]
Thanks, Nicole, for stepping in and stating the obvious.
Please post more when you see red-necks supporting Marxist feminist idea that American men who date foreign women are “exploiting power differentials”…as if there is anything wrong with that even if they were doing that.
You might want to join Twitter and help convince the girly men social conservatives at the @JIDF that what you just said is even happening in their own little country.
Yes, the social conservatives of Israel are unable to mentally process that feminism is even a problem, despite the feminists having taken over there already.
I try to tell them that Israel is doomed if they don’t take the first baby step of recognizing the problem, like an alcoholic at AA needing to recognize that he or she has a drinking problem.
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Doug, no matter how strict the “society” (there are no mono-societies), there are always libertines, always prostitutes, always cuckolded men.
My contention is that there are genetic classes of humans. The sneaky fuckers and libertines and cads may very well also be the artistic class, or they may be wide overlap.
If that’s true, it would follow that there is a genetic usefullness for pure R selection for the Kokopelli or wandering minstrell or backdoor man.
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I believe there is a genetic basis for curiosity and for a type of intelligence that is creative. I talked about this in a post about a half a year ago, with quotes off of a high IQ site about the possibility for this type of IQ. Insight IQ, we could call it. It seems rare.
It also seems to me that outside the box insightful curious people tend to be of the bohemian mindset.
I believe bohemians are genetically pre-determined to have their attitudes and pre-dispositions. No society ever gets rid of us. We are socially beneficial and useful, and we get all the wives pregnant.
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It’s already known that there is a genetic basis for the morality of purity. People without that will be like me, in that they will have no innate preferences for virgins, and not view sluts as innately unclean.
Those with the purity gene, also come with a social cohesion gene. People like me don’t give a flying fuck what the stupid Imam says. We don’t even follow the law.
So now you can see that if girls want the bad boy outsider, they want the man WITHOUT the purity and social cohesion genes.
It’s the beta class that band together with their police enforced social rules to cockblock out the rogue individualist risk takers. Fine – that’s your guys strategy, and if you want to think you are the backbone of civilization for it, whatever.
My class, the class without the purity and social cohesion gene have more entrepreneurs in it, more artists in it, more explorers, risk takers. We’re bad and we don’t give a fuck about your rules.
And no, Doug, no society will ever get rid of either us or women’s desire to fuck us.
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[It’s the beta class that band together with their police enforced social rules to cock-block out the rogue individualist risk takers]
The jet set, including retired military guys buying beach houses in Indonesia or on the Black Sea, scares the mid-western church-going male types who vastly outnumber them.
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@PA
It was funny last night how you said “I have read everything Roissy has written” and then you said “I have not read his post on IMBRA and don’t want to”.
Here are some more Roissy posts that you have clearly not read as well. Since you are a “regular”, you might want to get with the program:
Roissy’s Quick and Dirty Guide to Foreign Girls:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/06/12/a-quick-and-dirty-dating-guide-to-foreign-girls/
The Italian and the American
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/the-italian-and-the-american/
Are European Girls Better Lays
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/are-european-girls-better-lays/
A big point he makes is that foreign women belie the artificially elevated Social Market Value of American women.
I would add that, even if a man prefers American women, it is very much in his interest to see American women perceive that alphas, not betas, are the ones pursuing the foreigners.
This is the ultimate neg that can change the attitude in the US if done right.
The feminists are desperate to continue the meme that only losers leave their embrace.
What country in Eastern Europe are you originally from and why the inferiority complex? You don’t want American men “ruining” the great women there?
I would agree with that actually.
It is in my interest that western men don’t do to other cities what they did to Prague and Riga: where western hippies moved and made low value American and British men too familiar to women.
But you think of “ruin” in terms of it being bad that a man has premarital sex with a virgin…an attitude that makes you anachronistic as a blog regular.
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Signs of a Beta Boy Enabler of Feminism:
1) They ask others “why do you post against feminism?” “Were you hurt by one?” “Aren’t you macho enough to take what they dish out in new laws and newly appointed court officials?” and “Why do you care?”
2) They maintain the artificially elevated status, sexual market value of women in highly feminized cultures by being illogical and saying black is white and white is black. To them, not being able to afford to fly to Italy to buy a Ferrari (fly to Moscow for a week to date great women) is seen as having better driving skills (better social skills) than the guy who can afford to do so.
They feel a deep desire to elevate the value of their Ford Escort, probably to feel better about themselves and their prospects in life.
What makes these “men” artificially prop up the value of women in feminized cultures…is a form of Stockholm Syndrome.
A lot of divorced men in the MRM were raped so badly financially that they can never, ever, date foreign women.
They have to stay home in Cleveland and make those alimony payments on time.
And so they rationalize that their captors are the best.
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There’s also an element of fake bravado going on there too.
@PA has clearly alluded to the significant minority of postal worker types (social misfit omegas) who might save their money in the US for years for that “once in a life time trip” to Minsk, where some scammer is waiting to be his first date in 10 years…and he instantly proposes to her, after which she comes to the US to invoke VAWA and get instant citizenship.
I’ve met about 6 of these omegas in the field and I know about 12 such omegas who now cry about VAWA on the Internet (except I agree with them that the US government had no right to help scam them).
I’ve seen the look of exasperation in a woman’s eyes as she sees such a soul try to relate to her.
These poor souls do exist and, once every three years, one of them kills his bride for having scammed him (there are 1000 murders of spouses per year in the US to compare that with).
But it is only the feminists and weak men conducting fake bravado who make the illogical assumption that only such social misfit omegas would go to a region where the women are known to be better looking and friendlier.
They are using mythology to make themselves feel better.
They fail to see the logic that, when oil is found somewhere, everyone rushes in, not just the guys who are best at drilling.
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Laura says, “If I’ve been a good wife and he leaves me I do think he should have to pay something, although within reason.”
Within reason is nothing. If a guy turns against me, and we don’t have kids together, I want absolutely nothing.
Maybe his blood if it was bad enough, but definitely not his money.
If we have kids, I’d let him do as his conscience led him to, but I demand nothing. If it’s less than he is able to give then he will have to explain that to his children someday if he cares to. His personal drama ceases to be my business the day he decides to end us.
This is not because I’m a doormat. It’s because I don’t want to be financially dependent on someone who doesn’t care about me. I don’t even like being overly dependent on someone who does love me.
I don’t want any guy on earth to be able to say that I need him for anything other than love. It keeps things clean and clear of other issues.
The idea makes some men uncomfortable, but there’s a method to my madness. If his “love” ever fades, his respect for me won’t. I am also not a part of male oppression as a system. So my respect for him as a human stays clear as well.
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Jerry, I do speak up about these things, but I tend to focus my persuasive efforts on those in the position to do something about the problem immediately.
Religious people aren’t the ones who need to be convinced to make babies. Secular people are because it’s secular people who have been convinced that feminism must be embraced in order for one to be progressive.
So you’d do better talking to professors and others who drive the youth culture. You just have to show them the facts and let nature do the rest.
I made a convert in a half hour conversation in a cafe. It just took telling the truth in a way that just hadn’t been presented to him before in the past.
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@ Nicole
Yeah it probably is. Israel will probably try to annex the West Bank and Jerusalem within the next 25 years—-thus bringing another 4 million or so Arabs under their control…while denying them citizenship, of course.
It’s going to get way uglier than it is now.
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Further to what I’ve said above about threatening to and then actually divorcing your wife before she can change her domicile to Mass (though she may not be able to do that if you haven’t moved w/her and it generally takes at least 6mo of residence plus an intention to make the move “permanent”, there’s this:
Mass judges regularly throw out alimony waivers in prenups if they find them ureasonable either at the time agreed to or at the time the wife is seeking to invalidate them. The later is of course where the rubber meets the road.
In general though it’s the case that most states family law bar sucks blood out of divorcing couples, mostly men who are often forced by judges to pay both sides legal feels which gives the wife little incentive to keep it from dragging out w/fees mounting in hopes of getting everything she asked for, the Mass bar esp. around endless battles over the alimony issue seems about the worst. They’re also fighting to keep reforms from making the process simpler and fairer for men, mostly really for their own fee protect it’s clear. Nightmare state for married men.
DON’T EVEN CONSIDER MOVING TO OR LIVING IN MASS WHILE MARRIED MEN, EVEN WITH A PRENUP. It’s a little better if your wife is working at a good job but then again she might stop working.
On the other handing cohabiting in Mass seems to work fine. They don’t recognized common law marriages there period end of story, nor to they apparently create palimony theories etc. Or not yet anyway.
Even the income of a man’s working second wife will be considered in supporting the first non working one in Mass under their unreformed divorce/alimony law. As will that of a woman living with him. It’s unreal.
Marriage in mass truly is agreeing to be your wife’s indentured servant for life, while she makes no comparably enforced commitments to sex or in any other way be of service to you for life. 96% of alimony in Mass goes from men to women. (The national number is comparable.)
So don’t get married. Have a cohab agreement that is like the prenup I recommend and covers you just the same if local law declares you in a defacto marriage (as such law may change in the future, or as you may move as a couple to other places).
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Doug,
Did you get a raw deal in your own divorce or is all this knowledge from your years practicing law? (I thought you said you were married at one time)
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Laura–
We had no kids in my marriage. I ended up having to give her about half when lawyers’ fees were considered, which I thought was incredibly unfair. Seeing as how we were in an “equitable distribution” state not a “community property” one that was supposed to measure the relative contributions of the the spouses to the marriage, including income, child rearing, housekeeping, etc. Well we have a cleaning person, I helped initially organize, fund and promote her business (or a commerical arts nature more or less) and w/lots of related advice, and so on. And did half the cooking, or we had take out, often brought home by men after delivery to my office as I was on my way out the door. And often worked 80hrs a week as a beginning high partner track BigLaw lawyers. (I went into something else w/less hours but more money not long before the divorce began). And took her on great vacations all planned by men, though I tried to get her help and got some. And by the end her commercial arts buiness was doing well enough, with my crucial help.
So no I couldn’t see how almost equal division of my money was fair in an equitable distribution state.
Turns out it only came to mean at the hands of the NY family law bar and courts something significantly different from spouse always gets half when it’s the male who’s the lower earner and he hasn’t done much obvious greater contributing on other fronts to offset the wife’s much greater financial contribution.
My lawyer(s) (I changed them cause the first one really sucked) kept telling me how much worse it could be w/kids and if this and that, longer marriage, etc., and I paid attention. That experience lead me to reseach how much worse it could be and to see if it was possible to be remarried and have kids in America w/out laying myself open to a much worse ass raping.
Since my divorce the law has gotten much worse for men.
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Jerry, Jerry, Jerry…….
I like you, I really do but I have to clarify a couple of things with you:
1. I’m not a redneck.
2. I don’t support or defend feminism.
You need to get to know me before you hurl insults or assume things about me. Or at least get to know me so your insults will have a greater impact!!
Now, based on what you’ve written is it safe to assume you used to live in the USA and now live in a foreign country because you are avoiding alimony/child support? Is my assumption correct? I get the impression you were taken to the cleaners in family court and now live overseas. Hey, don’t get me wrong. I salute you if that is the case. I’ve been through the divorce meat grinder against my so called “feminist” wife so I can sympathize.
Nicole was kind enough to state she has been negatively impacted by feminism. I still ask you, HOW HAVE YOU, JERRY, BEEN NEGATIVELY IMPACTED? I WANT TO KNOW YOUR STORY!!!! I WANT TO HEAR TESTIMONY FROM THE CONGREGATION.
Also, I’m with Doug1….avoid marriage in Mass. Avoid Mass. like the plague. A divorce lawyer on the radio mentioned that Mass. is the worst state for marriage. I was lucky in my case. No kids. But the exwife quit her job and tried to claim she was disabled to force lifetime alimony; she failed in her attempt but that is another story for another time.
As for me personally if I come across some feminist I just keep on walking. No need to argue. Just leave them to their lonliness and the beta men that are willing to put up with their misguided nonsense.
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@Doug – “Well we have a cleaning person”
How PC of you? I call mine a cleaning lady, I need to get with the times! 🙂
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Prize for Stupidest Woman Ever is Doug’s Ex-Wife.
If I had that man, I would work so hard to keep him.
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Bhetti–
The thing is you know perfectly well you’re killing me…
And enjoying it.
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Hi @GT,
Wow. I had no idea you were both against feminism and far enough along in understanding it to be smart enough not to get married. You kept saying “why do you have a problem with feminism” so I naturally assumed you were OK with it.
I never married nor had kids & I could get a security clearance with my clean record. I travel back to the States often enough where young women flirt with me enough that I would consider living there again in short doses and/or for huge sums of money. Life is just better overseas, however. I won’t get two lives.
I am a few years older than Roissy but my story is like his (upper middle class but I also had a big chunk of military service and speak a slew of languages from where I was stationed). The only difference I’ve seen in our views so far is that he seems willing to have sex with a 7 and he hasn’t yet chucked the part of his career that forces him to physically live in the US.
Everyone knows Roissy wants to travel to East Europe as much as possible to meet women (they are gorgeous over here).
Check out his recent “Safeway Siren” post which is a classic now because it described an American guy – probably like @PA in a few years, who is sexually attracted to his new 18 year old nanny from Europe while saddled with a fat sow wife at home:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/safeway-siren/
Roissy wrote: “My future. It won’t be that herb’s. Hookers, game and, if need be, expatriation to cash in on my Americanness with a much younger loving, sexy East European or South Asian woman. Anything less would be… uncivilized.”
I misunderstood your “why do you have a problem with feminism?” to mean that you were the type of PUA that felt it was macho to just ignore it when laws are made to hassle men. Since IMBRA is one of the more well-known and brazen attempts by feminists to stop the foreign competition and meddle with men’s desire to date younger women, I assumed you held that view. Here is a good link to more articles showing how ridiculous that law is:
http://www.google.com.ua/#hl=uk&source=hp&q=imbra+feminism&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=a1e4a221592c4a20
The youngest adult women in the USA are not so feminist and, before their first Women’s Studies Class, they are no different from women in Russia. My reason for leaving the USA was because the most gorgeous young women’s friends and family were prone to cock-blocking if they felt a man was more than 5 years older than a woman.
In much of the civilized pro-male world, a man can easily date a woman 20 years younger and the friends and family aren’t working against you.
But the International VAWA bill before Congress wants to give billions to foreign feminist groups to try to change that dynamic (the women’s groups openly say they want to stop older US men from dating young foreign women).
The encouraging thing thing about the fight against feminism inside the USA is that the enemy is forced to keep “educating” a new crop of naturally resistant 18 year old women every year.
To me, the 18-24 year old women are the ones that are most important for dating and sex. If we separate them from feminism and kick the old feminists out of Congress, we are home free.
Glenn Sacks is reforming Family Court Law now. Check out http://www.glennsacks.com and http://www.mediaradar.org.
What men also need to do is end domestic VAWA and other programs that educate young women to be mean to men. Republicans can be convinced to stop this wasteful and harmful spending.
This is why I have Republican senators following me on on various Twitter accounts and I am part of the MRM (Men’s Rights Movement) that wants to destroy VAWA of which IMBRA is a part.
Where feminism hurts me when I am in the USA is that a “hatred of older males” is infused in the culture, especially the religious conservative culture. It is the cock-blocking I don’t tolerate.
About you and @Doug1….I just don’t know why you would concentrate on the family law aspect after the fact when, going forward, you may want to defend your right to meet someone online without the government telling the women all about you and your divorce before they are allowed to even read your first letter.
Would you want an American woman to be given your ex-wife’s phone number (via the federal government) to check you out *before* you are allowed to communicate with her?
This is practically what IMBRA does, only for foreign women (on dating sites at the meeting stage and all foreign women at the immigration stage no matter how they met you).
You and Doug are now free from further divorce harm, why are you not more concerned about feminist attempts to hassle you in meeting women and dating them?
Doug’s most relevant prose is when he discusses what laws might effect cohabitation.
Wait until laws are passed eliminating anonymity online and that allow women to positively ID any man via his cell phone signals, giving her information on his past marital history, his exact age verified by the government, any DUIs or unfair restraining orders, etc.
By the way, the segway that brings almost all divorced men to hate IMBRA is the fact that so many unjustified restraining orders are given out against men in divorces.
I never got married or divorced and never got a restraining order…but most divorced guys did.
@Doug: You are aware that IMBRA shows foreign women in dating agencies all restraining orders you may have had before you are allowed to send a message to introduce yourself and explain that the restraining order was fraudulent? Check out http://www.onlinedatingrights.com.
I have heard that such men are rejected 100% of the time (if the law is complied with) when foreign women see that he had a restraining order and never get his explanation.
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@Doug
I do realize that divorce law is critically important for married men who may want to replace a bad deal with a smart, attractive young woman as his partner in the future.
A man will need to keep most of his money for that.
Young women do reject men who tell them they were cleaned out financially by an ex-wife.
Sadly, many of the men in the MRM joined too late, when they were financially destroyed or now that they are married and trapped by the system.
This makes them unable to even plan to date overseas or even move to Maui. They are chained like slaves to a job on the Mainland in order to keep up with the slave payments.
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“Well we have a cleaning person”
mines called cleaning man! ahah so what…
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For those who were dumb enough to get married, here is mathematical proof that alimony payments can take away from a man’s current and future sex life.
$1000 per month to an ex-wife = 50 lap dances you didn’t get that month
$1000 per month to an ex-wife = 5 expensive dinners at your city’s best restaurant (revolving at the top of a skyscraper) that tend to impress the Hell out of college students who will gladly accept the offer to eat there by a professorial type.
$1000 per month to an ex-wife = Season tickets to the swankiest social venues like box seats at the opera or box seats behind home plate at the stadium that are chick magnets.
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You all are invited to discuss what should be in a man’s required prenup, that he also might realistically get after negotiations more or less, from an attractive woman who loves him, at this link. (He will have to have done a LOT of pre-selling about how unfair to men divorce 2.0 is to men however, before he gets to verbally outlining this to her.) It’s in mid level of detail and is the result of a lot of thought on the subject, ongoing. Novaseeker’s said he’ll join in.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/04/13/alpha-dreams-and-beta-genes-male-sexual-entitlement/?amp;sid=f0abab489673e390b1a045a1950f9403#comment-12841
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@Jerry,
Hello there….I now see what you mean. I checked some of the links and it makes more sense now.
“why are you not more concerned about feminist attempts to hassle you in meeting women and dating them?”
I hear you now.
Is it safe to assume that VAWA/IMBRA is a first step in attempting to intrude on men’s rights in the US by requiring background checks and written contracts before you can even begin dating here in the US?
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What is dating like for divorced men that live in the United States? I know some divorce men who seem to have pretty successful love lives.
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Laura–
If they got game, have kept or gotten back into shape, and have some success, it’s super. Attenuated maybe severely by asset divorce rape and ongoing support rape, when that’s occurring. Not so much for casual it his head is back in game mode, but in longer term stuff. From what I see, and read. That’s not effected me.
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«Is it safe to assume that VAWA/IMBRA is a first step in attempting to intrude on men’s rights in the US by requiring background checks and written contracts before you can even begin dating here in the US?»
That seems a likely goal — a significant (in stridency if not in numbers) part of the women rights movement is not too far from Dworkin’s position that all sex between men and women is rape, and thus all courtship or seduction is attempted rape, as in a patriarchal society women can not truly freely consent.
Therefore the attitude that “better safe than sorry”, and thus presuming until contrary proof (or even in that case) that any accused man is a rapist or an abuser. As some argue, it is an undeniable fact that every man is a potential rapist of paedophile or womanbeater.
The argument is then that it is better then to punish a hundred innocent males that to let a culprit get away with it, as anyhow the hundred innocents males are not innocent at all, as they are all conniving in oppressing women by upholding a culture that glorifies ore at least condones rape and abuse (and every case of hetero sex is rape and abuse, “objectively”).
Some people are proposing to make every instance of heterosexual sex a crime unless the woman agrees to a written consent note before it (I think some USA universities have such a policy).
The argument is that nobody forces a man to have with a woman, and that if she would not freely take a minute writing a few lines stating her explicit consent, would she be really consenting?
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Laura asks: “What is dating like for divorced men that live in the United States? I know some divorce men who seem to have pretty successful love lives.”
It depends. Divorce is pretty brutal no matter how you slice it.
1) If the man got taken to the cleaners over child support and alimony he may never be able to financially recover. Combine that with the indentured servitude that alimony places on you and some men are unable to date when/how they would like because a good chunk of change is going to alimony payment.
2)Some men, even if they are not taken to the cleaners may end up very bitter due to the experience. Men don’t tend to open up and discuss their problems or bother going to counseling because it’s not manly or they believe some macho bullshit about not allowing yourself to express pain and hurt. Remember, the most men will open up about is how angry they are but they never express how lonely and helpless and hurt they feel. It doesn’t help when your male friends are a bunch of clueless idiots that don’t know what to say to a friend who is in crisis. It also doesn’t help that with divorce come a shifting of friendships. All of a sudden your married friends don’t want anything to do with you because they feel uncomfortable or because they think that divorce is a communicable disease. Some end up turning to booze/drugs.
3) Some men “let themselves go” during the marriage and they soon find themselves fat, dumpy, out of shape and with no social/dating skills. It doesn’t help that they were unable to tell something was wrong in the marriage that they get blindsided when they get served divorce papers. Now here they are, after so many years of marriage and they don’t really know how to live the single life and they are clueless as to how the dating scene changed while they were married.
4) Some men recover just fine and build a life for themselves all the more wiser. Regardless of how they ended up after the divorce they are able to grow and be better and stronger from it.
Ultimately it all depends on the individual.
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Correct. It was stated in court that the plan was to bring this to all dating sites.
What would be interesting to Doug as a lawyer is that, when the plaintiff mentioned the Equal Rights Clause of the 14th Amendment to say that it wasn’t fair to just persecute men who date foreign women and not all men, the feminist group Tahirih Justice Center and Bush’s traitorous AG mentioned a federal case precedent apparently establishing that it is OK to regulate a subset of the population as long as it is politically viable to do so as long as the government has the intention of regulating everyone but just having problems, politically, in implementing that.
In other words, there is no 14th Amendment. When the judge agreed with this argument, I realized the USA is a banana republic.
This does apply to American women dating overseas as well but there is only one internationally-oriented lesbian dating site and its managers are safely ignoring the law because they know the government and women’s groups will never go after them for non-compliance (the Department of Homeland Security is charged with enforcement and they issued a PR six months ago saying they had 2 battered wives in safe houses ready to testify against two dating sites that didn’t present background checks after the law was supposed to come into effect).
I highly doubt the government will dare to actually try to enforce IMBRA. If they do, they will choose an agency whose owners are not all that smart and who will not listen to anyone in the MRM to help defend themselves.
Note, just like in the film “Braveheart” where the nobles of Scotland ended up secretly helping the King of England, two of the largest American-owned international dating sites quickly recognized that IMBRA helped their bottom line by allowing them to maintain fake profiles for women and raise the price of meeting real women by a factor of 10. They comply with their own convenient interpretation of the law…they allow anonymous communication with fake profiles now.
The agency plaintiffs deliberately threw both cases, basically making sure they lost. Sarkin & Pinales, the law firm that helped in the abortive AODA vs Gonzales case, committed legal malpractice. Their lawyer was a woman who told me on the phone that she had no respect for men who dated Russian women but “there is a legal principle here”.
Get this: the idiot plaintiffs chose a feminist lawyer because they thought she would show her sisters that the law was wrong…they thought paying her $8000 would cause her to do this.
She then went on to write a complaint that sabotaged her own case. She said “We recognize that the Supreme Court has never mentioned a specific right of Americans to communicate with foreigners.”
She then said “Because women have been granted the right to abortion, men should now be granted the right to meet foreign women”.
She said this to a Bush appointee, knowing he would throw the case out (he denied a restraining order on the law and the plaintiffs realized their lawyer was crazy and quit).
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[…] Here is the entire post. […]
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A 37 year old man tried to pick me up yesterday. He used the age guessing game thing on me. I guessed 28 to be nice. Then he said,”add nine years.” eep.
It was an interesting experience for me. He wasn’t bad looking but I’m taken and he seemed a bit too creepy.
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Thanks for the input Brightstormyday.
Exactly what was creepy about him?
I ask that because you might be using circular logic. He may have been great looking, smelled great, said fascinating things (story-telling), understood game and pre-selection and shown he earned well…and you might still say he was “creepy” because he was still interested in you, a younger woman. I’ve been the victim of that circular logic many times.
To be honest, what I find “creepy” is young anglo-saxon women making a big deal that a guy is 37, which is prime-time for men. The main reason I moved to Eastern Europe is that I simply refuse to live in a world where being that age is somehow not ideal and somehow a big deal. I consider 15 years age difference to be a minimum in dating (you only have about 5 years left of being attractive enough for guys your own age before the Alphas among them trade in for newer models).
He could easily have been 47 as guys that age will say they are 37 and for good reason.
You may have found the encounter “interesting” but it wasn’t interesting to him. It was a bad experience for him. If he shows up on this blog now, he might have a few choice things to say.
This isn’t to say you weren’t justified in finding him not to your liking and you may be quite satisfied with and unwilling to cheat on your current boyfriend but…
When a billionaire finally tries to do something about the misandry toward older males, I will want to see more advertising to young women that, like Roissy, blatantly tells them that they don’t have too much time to choose a guy who will stick with them for life, and a 22 year old woman will age into relative unattractiveness faster than a 37 year old man will (he’s got another 15 years of looking hot if he takes care of himself while she has another 10 years).
I can understand the logic that many insecure young East European women have of 37 year old men = “he must be too picky and thus won’t ever pick me, so I will reject him”.
This is a troublesome attitude for me to face, but at least it is extremely logical, mostly comes from women with low self-esteem and doesn’t come from a sense of entitlement among women to men their own age.
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