Another scientific experiment demonstrates that beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. Or, in this case, not even in the blind eye of the beholder. Fat feminists weep bitter tears. Naomi Wolf tosses her useless credentials in the garbage. Beauty is, as I’ve been saying since day 1 on this blog, universal and objective. Men pretty much desire the same shape and weight of women around the world.
The NY0.98WHRTimes has an article about a Dutch psychologist who drove around the country in a van with two female mannequins with adjustable waist to hip ratios. (Hat tip: Cannon’s Canon.) He stopped at the residences of blind men and had them fondle the mannequins with their hands (no walking sticks allowed).
The headless mannequins, which Karremans bought, he told me recently, “on the Dutch version of Craigslist,” have adjustable waists and hips, and the researchers set each body differently, so that one had a waist-to-hip ratio of 0.7 and the other of 0.84. Based on a range of studies of male preferences done by other scientists, Karremans chose the lower ratio as an ideal, a slim yet curvy paragon, at least among Western populations. The higher ratio, by contrast, doesn’t represent obesity, just a fullness that falls close to the average woman’s shape.
The study involved men who had been sightless from birth. The idea was that the bombardment of visual media — of models on billboards and actresses on television and porn stars online — which may be so powerful and even dominant in molding desire, couldn’t have had any direct effect on these men, who emerged from the womb into a congenital dark. Would their tastes in women’s bodies match those of men who could see? How would their preferences reflect on the roles of nature and nurture, on the influence of evolution and the impact of experience, in forming our psyches?
[…] Karremans sent his mannequins around the Netherlands. The blind stood before them; they were told to touch the women, to focus their hands on the waists and hips. The breasts on both figures were the same, in case the men reached too high. The men extended their arms; they ran their hands over the region. Then they scored the attractiveness of the bodies. Karremans had a hunch, he told me, that their ratings wouldn’t match those of the sighted men he used as controls, half of them blindfolded so that they, too, would be judging by feel. It seemed likely, he said, that visual culture would play an overwhelming part in creating the outlines of lust. And though the blind had almost surely grown up hearing attractiveness described, perhaps even in terms of hourglass shapes, it was improbable, he writes in his forthcoming journal paper, that they had heard descriptions amounting to, “The more hourglass shaped, the more attractive,” which would be necessary to favor the curvier mannequin over the figure that was only somewhat less so.
[…] But, with some statistically insignificant variation, the scores of the blind matched those of the sighted. Both groups preferred the more pronounced sweep from waist to hip. One possible explanation emphasizes the sense of smell — though the mannequins wore no perfume. By this line of thinking, certain ratios of hormones and their metabolites in the female body are associated with biological advantage, as well as with particular pheromonal scents and low W.H.R.’s. The male begins life wired, through the influence of evolution, to favor these odors and then learns, mostly through unconscious experience, to connect the cues of smell to the proportions of waist and hip. He makes this connection through sight if he can see and by touch if he can’t.
The case against the “beauty is subjective and therefore perception of it by randy men is malleable; so rejoice!, hope remains that fat feminist craps and aging broads can find love just as easily as hot, slender 21 year old babes” just gets stronger with each experiment. But I’m sure the pretty lie platoon will find a way to dismiss this study. Maybe they’ll accuse men blind since birth of being influenced by patriarchal norms in Braille.
The author of the article throws the obligatory bone to the femdork crowd, but it’s a weak, brittle bone indeed:
The explanation may be more elusive than this simple logic. And the study’s implications about nature and nurture are far from straightforward. Karremans’s findings don’t rule out the sway of culture, not at all. If experience played no role in etching our preferences, there would be scarcely any diversity of lust; we would all be drawn to the same forms.
False inference. There could certainly continue to be “diversity of lust” without experience playing any role. For instance, people may be genetically primed from birth to appreciate better the beauty of others of their own race. Or there may be a hardwired preference for hair color. If the last twenty years of psychosocial research shows us anything, it’s that you’d be on firmer ground biasing hypotheses in favor of the genetic cause of behavior instead of the cultural conditioning cause.
One nuance in the study’s data points to this complexity: sighted and blind men both strongly favored the mannequin with the lower W.H.R., but this slimmer-waisted body received especially high scores from the men with sight, maybe because a life spent amid cultural signals compounds the work of evolution. Still, the gropings of Karremans’s blind offer a glimpse into the ancestral depths of our desires.
Or it could be that touching an optimal 0.7 WHR woman combined with seeing a 0.7 WHR woman produces a positive feedback loop that jacks up the “OMG I’m so horny!” limbic system reflex in men. I like banging in the dark, but when the lights are on and I can see the pussy lips parting in response to my meaty intrusion, the pleasure is magnified. If I was handed a checklist during sex, I’d score my lover higher while under the visual influence of glistening, crimson labia.
It’s really amazing when you stop to think about it that blind men who have never once in their lives seen a female body still rate as most attractive the same 0.7 WHR female body type as do normally sighted men. The inborn biological basis of sexual desire is so fundamental — so resistant to cultural influence — that every sense is brought into play in ensuring that men make the right choice for the propagation of their genes; which, in nearly all cases, is going to result in men choosing the same slender babe archetype when such a choice is possible, no matter where in the world a man lives or how many times his mom embarrassed him in front of his friends when he was a teenager. I’ve no doubt that a blind and deaf man who has lost his hands will compensate with a bloodhound’s nose for sniffing out a 0.7 WHR from twelve parsecs.
This blog post brought to you by Tick Tock, Inc., in collaboration with generous funding from the What Part Of No Fat Chicks Don’t You Understand Foundation.

speaking as someone who comes pretty close to the “ideal” you and this study reference…isn’t a little misleading to conclude from these results that slimness is a universal ideal when the preferred mannequin was not just slimmer, but curvier? i feel like the study would need a third mannequin — curvy, maybe the same ratio, but larger measurements — for you to concretely come to that conclusion.
[editor: curvier != fatter. unless it’s a euphemism employed by an aggrieved fatty polishing up her online profile.]
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christina hendricks
kate bosworth
christina hendricks is curvier (though hardly fat). kate bosworth is much slimmer.
crystal renn is considerably larger than the “slender babe archetype,” but she has well-defined curves and a waist-to-hip ratio that looks close to 0.7, albeit on a larger scale. is crystal renn a sexual ideal for modern, western, sighted men? not really (although she is probably a sexual icon for some men). would someone with crystal renn’s measurements be more attractive to a blind man than a stick-straight polish model? this study can’t really tell us.
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I’ve never seen a female I thought had too low a waist-to-hip ratio, so I’m skeptical of that 70% figure.
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I don’t know
what Art is but
I know what I like
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Reminds me of Ray Charles, who, according to The Telegraph, “…used to stroke the forearms and wrists of the women who threw themselves at him to gauge their potential in bed.”
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If the last twenty years of psychosocial research shows us anything, it’s that you’d be on firmer ground biasing hypotheses in favor of the genetic cause of behavior instead of the cultural conditioning cause.
Ah, but society loves those pretty little lies because they spare hurt feelings and possible social upheaval. In our society, a little of both.
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@editor:
” Still, the gropings of Karremans’s blind offer a glimpse into the ancestral depths of our desires.”
Call it the audacity of grope. Eric Massa would
understand.
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Helmut Newton on the wasp wasted look.
1940’s I think:
Much higher res jpg’s of this famous image exist on the web but hey, I was looking for this one in particular and this is what my quick google image search first turned up.
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Feminists (and the current incarnation of liberals, n/k/a progressives) will ignore or spin it. That is what they have to do with the rest of reality, why not this?
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Roissy,
I have one quibble. Rather than saying beauty is objective, it’s closer to the truth to say that men have evolved to all have the same subjective judgements about women’s attractiveness. Driven by natural selection, of course.
When you have millions upon millions of people, then you get some outliers who may actually enjoy fatties or pre-pubescent bodies. Some feminist with a constipated intellect points to these genetic dead ends and says, “See, beauty isn’t objective, it’s all culturally conditioned.”
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Feminists will hear none of this. Women will delude themselves to keep from believing anything that reveals their sexual market value is lower than they assume. They think nice shows will make up for fat asses.
This blog post brought to you by Tick Tock, Inc., in collaboration with generous funding from the What Part Of No Fat Chicks Don’t You Understand Foundation.
LMAO
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Well this solves things, next step just bring a few hammers, chisels, and carving tools on your dates, before you know it every guy can have a 0.7 all to himself… if you’re okay with lots of blood and maybe being arrested. Small price to pay, am I right?
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Hilarious. That’s sponsorship that is not a sellout.
this is hilarious too. the obama campaign slogan as reimagined (repurposed?) by bill clinton.
that finding is amazing the more you think about it. the only way blind men would have a non-innate way of being attracted (i.e., conditions) is by touching other women. Absent the other senses like smell, sound of voice, etc. that are controlled for by using mannequins.
Might be interesting to preform a similar experiment on blind women. I bet they would rate as more attractive male mannequins that had broader shoulders, sculpted chests, biceps, etc. And also treated them like shit. 🙂
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also, for the amusement of the board, another small masterpiece from “The Onion” :
http://www.theonion.com/articles/most-men-are-too-intimidated-to-date-a-successful,17257/
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Hey feminazis, don’t call us men pigs for liking that then!
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Well, that waist/hip ratio can come in different sizes. Based on my anecdotal observations (limited to educated professionals I know), guys who come from northeastern cities tend to have more of a thing for the super thin runway fasion model types while guys from further west or down south often like a bit more flesh and curve (albeit probably with the same approximate waist/hip ratio). I’m not talking about fat women, just women with that ratio but a bit more healthy (relatively firm) flesh in the right places. So culture may have some influence on reactions to overall size.
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So you’re saying Mickey D’s is a bad first date venue?
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.70 hip/waist ratio does not mean “no fat chicks.” That redhead from Mad Men is bigger than average and men love her. She is closer to the .70 waist/hip ratio. Sofia Coppola is skinny but does not have a .70 waist/hip ratio. I doubt her body gives men many boners.
I agree with you that being too fat kills attractiveness and that most men instinctively dislike fat women, but hip/waist ratio evidence is not the way to prove it.
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My wife has that ratio. I still remember when she was bending over a bit putting something in the back seat of the car and it just fixed my eye. Another thing I noticed was when she was pregnant that any weight in the abdominal area would have been awkward. We all know abdominal fat stresses the heart but so does pregnancy. A fertile female body is optimizing itself for babies. Interestingly those career woman we are all supposed to love create androgen hormones from stress which puts women into survival mode, not optimized for making babies. It tends to impact that ratio. Fat in the middle repulsive to men for the obvious reason of nature’s efficiency.
You want a career woman? Then develop a taste for an unappealing boyish body.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1108830/End-hourglass-Career-women-usher-straighter-female-form.html
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“I’ve never seen a female I thought had too low a waist-to-hip ratio, so I’m skeptical of that 70% figure.”
That is such a good point. I’ve always felt the same way. How did they determine that .7 was the ideal? This study indicates that .7 was the smallest available. has there been a study which compares .6 to .7 and shows that men still prefer .7?
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“i feel like the study would need a third mannequin — curvy, maybe the same ratio, but larger measurements — for you to concretely come to that conclusion.”
I’d sure like to see that study. If we take a mannequin which looks like a 110 lb girl with a .75 WHR and compare it to a mannequin which looks like a 140 lb chick with a .7 WHR, which do men prefer? If there is a study which proves or disproves that weight itself has an effect on men’s preferences, I have not seen it. it is the case that slimmer women are more likely to have lower WHRs, but that’s not universal.
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Thanks for the link Chi-town .. apropos career women, an extract from Sir John Betjeman’s brilliant poem.
And behind their frail partitions
Business women lie and soak,
Seeing through the draughty skylight
Flying clouds and railway smoke.
Rest you there, poor unbelov’d ones,
Lap your loneliness in heat.
All too soon the tiny breakfast,
Trolley-bus and windy street!
(rest available here http://www.poetryconnection.net/poets/John_Betjeman/16954)
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My money would be on the 140 lb chick with a .7 WHR,
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Y’all have to understand that for women, being called ugly is like being called a pussy is for men.
Men don’t like to hear about the glass ceiling for pussy. Women don’t like to hear about their limits based on attractiveness.
I don’t think it’s particularly feminist to have a problem with being told that you are ugly. That’s pretty normal until a woman reaches an age when telling her that will just get you a look like, “Why the hell do you care?” Some of us reach that earlier than others.
What feminists do have a problem with though, is the idea that either of their masculinized “ideals” are visually repellant. Their core worships the Amazon of Manjaw, but at the moment, for some reason, they’re trying to recruit fat chicks. So now instead of wearing clothes that actually compliment our, eh, more robust figures, we’re all supposed to squeeze ourselves into spandex shirts with, “SEXY,” Bedazzlered across the boobs.
…
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I took a lindy hop dance class in which I got to put my arm around lots of girls in a rotation. Bottom line
Small slender girls make me dance better, learn quicker, and make my dance pants tighter. It feels great when their body fits like a puzzle piece to mine. The cutest girl in the class was a TA. Everything she said to correct my moves sank in immediately. A lesser attractive girl corrected me at one point and I almost dismissed it completely.
When my partner in the rotation was a jabba’s bride; they were clumsy, awkward, unfeminine and generally embarrassing to learn with. As for the math involved in putting my arm around their chest onto their back properly was like asking 2+2 to equal purple.
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Heman, so what you’re saying is that you’re short, and you wish all women has smaller breasts so you could get your stubby little arms around them.
I don’t have a problem with short men, just guys who don’t get that social dominance for men is what beauty is for women. Your tools should never know that you hold them in contempt.
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Next post needs to be an audio recording: ‘Game for the Blind’.
Since some factions like quoting romance novels as proof of female sexuality, there have been romance novels about blind guys. ‘Course they’re rich*. ‘Course they can get away with much more Being A Jerk behaviour because… the man’s blind!
*But Game is worth 2 million net worth, according to the olde commenter going by the name of a horse that was in fifth place in the apocalypse race.
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re:Christina Hendricks
AFAIK, she has never posed for a picture that shows her mid-section. In the 21st century, if you are under 35 and famous…that usually says something.
I bet you $5 she is not all that happy with her body.
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The original research was done more than fifteen (20?) years ago, and was based on the measurements of Miss America winners going back lots of years, which were presumed to be accurate measurements. (The pageant caved under feminist pressure some time ago and stopped taking such measurements.)
Anyway, the winners all clustered in the 0.65-0.70 range, with 0.67 being the average. Recall that measurements of the sort we’re talking about are made on somewhat soft tissue, and are not recorded using decimals.
So 0.7 was taken as a practical ideal.
You really don’t see women with such narrow waists that the WHR is ever below 0.65. There’s a natural floor there so far as how far functioning anatomy can go in one direction, except perhaps in extremely rare and/or freakish cases.
Think about it: a 0.60 WHR is a 21 1/2 inch waist on someone with 36 inch hips. You just don’t see that. 0.7 is doable, but still over on one side at the tail of the distribution curve.
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0.7 is the inflection point — lower is still sexier but the incremental value of being 1% lower in WHR is reduced below 0.7.
Christina Hendrix looks about 38-27-38 to me. She’s a big girl, WHR about 0.71
and here:
Of course she is probably wearing a girdle, so maybe her true WHR is higher.
Kim Kardashian is about as extreme as they get nowadays, and at 35-26.5-40 her WHR is 0.66.
Best hourglass figure ever was probably Betty Brosmer (later Betty Weider).
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Oops, I gave the same Christina Hendricks link twice, here are both the pics I meant to refer to:
and
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I’m not a 0.7, but when I wear a corset – not one of those toy ones, but a 26 steel boned (!indeed!), hockey skate laced, full functioning one – men instinctually are drawn to put their arm around my waist.
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I’m interested in how this compares with previous civilizations, and the preference for fuller, rounder, more plump chicks. Why the shift in preference? Note, I’m not complaining.
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Nicole: Can you wrap your arms around a couch, even if it had small pillows?
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@MAURICE and “The Onion”
It takes all kinds. I once met a woman who looked
almost like Valerie Bertinelli (seriously), and
was the smartest woman I ever knew, I believe.
So I married her, it lasted until she died some
years ago, of natural causes.
Some of us do NOT blanch at smart women
(but high-status, not necessarily the same thing,
might be more problematic).
HOWEVER, essentially all men will pass on red eyes
and asps coming out of her head. Seriously, smarts
can be good, but cannot make up for terrible looks.
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.7 is certainly optimal but I’m willing to bet most guys would prefer a slender girl with .8 over a bigger girl with .7……(Pear-shaped women who are medically overweight can still have low WHR)
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feminstx–
I linked the Helmut Newton wasp waisted girl famous high fashion / art image (admittedly w/corset assist) with this very idea in mind.
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Polymath–
There are many things about Kim Kardashian that I don’t like, with suspicion that I couldn’t stand, but I’m gonna have to just admit that’s she’s pretty god damn beautiful, face and body.
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Catriona
White guys like me overwhelmingly yes, black guys generally no. Actually include with white guys pretty much the rest of the world except black guys, a few tribes here and there excepted.
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Kim Kardashian is about as extreme as they get nowadays, and at 35-26.5-40 her WHR is 0.66
^ this i dont believe,
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I’ve always loved Aki hoshino’s HTW ratio.
According to her measurements on wiki, hers comes out to almost .6 She may look a tad extreme, but my dick doesnt think so.
Guess which one she is.

Another porn star that had a similar htw is “Ember” Blonde hair, and just a great exaggerated hips.
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The young Linda Rondstadt was an example of a bigger woman with scientifically-well proportioned curves, who unfortunately became a plus-sized gal later on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZPPBJC8Ic‘
Christine Hendricks is bigger than Rondstadt, so unless she makes a concerted effort to eat healthy and get some moderate excercise……….she may struggle with her weight. I hope not though. She has lovely skin and magnificent boobs.
Ive admired “stacked” women for quite sometime, but experience has taught me that your uncles and older cousins were right in telling you that the curvier cuties sure do put on weight later on. They usually do. Its a shame, but thats what Ive noticed.
————————————————————————–
Following the science meme further:
Is DOPAMINE why women love bad boys?
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/16/hookinguprealities/what-women-really-love-about-bad-boys/
Interesting article there. I dont know if its true, but the University of New Mexico experiment with men was interesting. Bananas, Dairy, Almonds, and Avocados are said to increase dopamine. Perhaps a Gamer can use “food game” and get a gal a banana split to prime the pump a little bit?
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Doug:
There are many things about Kim Kardashian that I don’t like, with suspicion that I couldn’t stand, but I’m gonna have to just admit that’s she’s pretty god damn beautiful, face and body.
Since you’re the one who is privy to classified information, I gots to know:
Quien es mas hermosa : Kim o Bhetti?
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z:
Interesting article there. I dont know if its true, but the University of New Mexico experiment with men was interesting. Bananas, Dairy, Almonds, and Avocados are said to increase dopamine. Perhaps a Gamer can use “food game” and get a gal a banana split to prime the pump a little bit?
It could just as easily go the other way: predisposition to dopamine cravings might compel a woman to seek edgier thrills to meet her reward-center threshold. You might seem less alpha to her. But this is a silly line of thought anyway.
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But yeah, all the dyed-in-the-wool bad-boy chasers I’ve known have always had a taste for the extreme, whether it be physical (skydiving) or emotional (interpersonal aggression)
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“.7 is certainly optimal but I’m willing to bet most guys would prefer a slender girl with .8 over a bigger girl with .7……(Pear-shaped women who are medically overweight can still have low WHR)” – Catrionia
I agree. I don’t think waist-to-hip ratio is as good a predictor of a great body as height to waist width ratio is (higher the better).
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Why are we so against the notion that sexuality is driven by biology? Sex is such an irrational activity that it has to be driven by very primitive parts of our brain.
Item: The only part of a man’s brain that is active during orgasm is his brainstem. That may help to explain why it is hard for men to rate their orgasms. They really aren’t forming distinct memories at the moment.
Many writers (male) have expressed no regret when they live long enough to be free of the sex drive.
I just saw a study where women preferred men who spoke in an even monotone over men whose voices were more animated. The investigators thought the monotone projected power. That is likely biological, too.
Well, the only time I worry about the feminazi’s any more is when they try to outlaw things I like, or they put their hands on my wallet. Which, BTW, is all too frequent.
Did you notice the article expressing outrage over the “pill” (Viagra) and how this has empowered old guys to mess around with young women. They act like this is some kind of crime against nature. The only people they didn’t interview for the article were the old men and the young women. Each one is getting what they want. Buzz off.
But, really. The wide hipped fatties are too easy a target.
I recently saw a stripper performing who was overweight. Not really too heavy for a dancer if she carried the fat well. But, she looked like porky pig, both in the face and body. Gawd awful, almost sickening. Just move on. Nothing to see.
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I must make sure my women friends get enough dopamine foods like almonds and sunflower seeds…
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Heman, I’m not much of a couch humper, but I think it’s safe to say that a taller man has a better chance of getting his arms around a larger woman than a shorter man does.
…not that being short, for a man, is such a big deal. It’s just that women who are bigger or taller than you may view you as awkward if you don’t know how to compensate for your height.
Try not worrying as much about what’s proper, and focus on what’s possible. If you can’t get your arm around to her back, put it on the back of her shoulder, and keep stepping. She might seem less clumsy if you weren’t so rigid.
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Grampa, is the same people who were upset about the blue pill were just as outraged by birth control pills, then it would make sense.
I think both are a way that humans try to trump nature, with often disastrous results.
If a healthy guy who doesn’t have any particular circulation problems, can’t naturally get it up for young, hot chicks, then he should come out of the closet of whatever his freak-ness is, and learn to be okay with himself. Taking drugs to convince yourself to screw people you don’t want to screw, be that an old wife or a new hottie, is like back when some women used to take opiates to make themselves more compliant.
Same motivation…to put a square peg into a round hole.
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Lol. This post and its comments are fucking nutz!
I picked the wrong week to quit smoking weed.
PS I bet if roissy took over the world he would ask for…a hundred million dollars…
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incisive. glad you posted that.
aerosol cocaine in a perfume?
now that’d be love potion #(6)9.
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“Why are we so against the notion that sexuality is driven by biology?” – Grampa.
Because a lot of people are averse to Fatalism. People like to think they can change everything in their lives when a lot of life has been pre-determined from birth.
However Anonymous beat me to the punch – just because some prefer fatties and others prefer skinnies, the 0.7 WHR keeps recurring (l.e. curvy fatties and curvy skinnies). On the other hand, I believe the margin of deviation for acceptable WHR is in the 0.6 – 0.8 range.
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Gil says, “Because a lot of people are averse to Fatalism. People like to think they can change everything in their lives when a lot of life has been pre-determined from birth.”
In the past, people used religion to try to change their course. Now, people use drugs and surgery.
Almost nobody actually walks their pre determined path anymore. A girl who would have been downrated before, gets a boob job and then starts walking the path of a chesty chick. A girl with a “weight problem” takes some speed and suddenly starts walking the path of a thin woman. A guy who would have either phased out or felt compelled to mature and admit he likes to get tied up, or is Gay, takes a pill and then suddenly starts walking the path of a virile older man with a normal orientation.
Fatalism is kind of obsolete or at least old fashioned, under today’s circumstances.
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Catriona:
Doug1:
I think the preference for slenderness over absolute WHR is more of a male SWPL characteristic than white men overall. In obese America, where high-fat foods are cheap and easily accessible, slenderness is a status marker which advertises high value character traits such as self-control, self-discipline, education and intelligence, and wealth. A SWPL man would prize these characteristics highly and would be much more likely to choose a slim girl with a non-ideal WHR over a big girl with perfectly proportioned curves. (Remember Roissy’s defense of the superiority of Keira Knightley in a post from a while back when a commenter suggested that a much heavier, curvier woman was more attractive? Roissy was adamant that beyond a certain size threshold, WHR was irrelevant.) In contrast, a lower class white man would not put as high of a premium on slenderness since the high value character traits that slenderness represents aren’t as important to him.
In general, white men seem to value a woman’s facial beauty over her proportions, and the higher status the man has, the more important the facial beauty is. (How else to explain the insistence by the majority-white media that actresses like Natalie Portman, Keira Knightley, and Kristin Kreuk are ravishing beauties? Their boyish figures seem not to factor into the equation at all; it is sufficient that they have great faces and are thin with petite frames.)
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Nicole —
Just one point of contention…
The men that have access to drugs for erectile dysfunction that you speak of are currently living in the “gayest” time in human history. I am skeptical that there are an abundance of closeted homosexual men that are abusing these drugs to hide their sexual preference from their partners, but of course we will never know for sure.
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“Christina Hendricks
AFAIK, she has never posed for a picture that shows her mid-section. In the 21st century, if you are under 35 and famous…that usually says something.”
That her parents raised her to have some modesty?
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“I just saw a study where women preferred men who spoke in an even monotone over men whose voices were more animated. The investigators thought the monotone projected power. That is likely biological, too.”
And that, of course, explains how Henry Kissinger got Jill St. John to date him.
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Nicole: Just because you took your fat ass ugly black face off your comments, doesn’t mean that anybody gives a shit what you say. Please stop commenting. I am trying to read the comments. You offer no insight that is of any use to anyone. Shut the fuck up and refrain from commenting anymore. Thank you from everyone.
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Daft, it’s not always about Gay. It could be about a fetish or a preference for anything other than “hotties”, especially if logically, the guy isn’t physically compatible with that body type.
Ever heard the saying that for every hot chick you see is a guy who’s tired of fucking her?
When many guys get older, their testosterone gets lower, and they become much more picky about who and how they like to get off. Taking testosterone would bring up their sex drive to its former glory in a natural way, like recharging a battery that is already there. Taking specific erectile dysfunction medication is like changing the microchip, or at least superficially.
With testosterone, a guy is more likely to not hide from himself because the chemistry is his, only better. If during his stint of low drive, he figures out that he likes red stilletto heels, that’s not going to change. Barefoot might get a boner more easily, but stilletto heels will get a diamond cutter. Until then though, heels will get wood and barefoot will get a cuddle.
If, on the other hand, he takes ED specific meds, he can shag a barefoot girl and hide his love for red stilletto heels from her, and maybe himself. He’ll get a boner.
Meanwhile, he’s still the compliant, nice guy who doesn’t ask for sex more than she does, and everybody eats their grass and bleats their way happily to the slaughterhouse.
I’m not saying that nobody should take them. Some guys have circulation problems, not testosterone problems. It’s just that I feel that it’s usually used as a way for low T men to stay low T while humbly serving their harpies and/or masking their own needs for social validation.
One could say that’s natural too, but it’s still a shame.
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Good old science, always slapping the feminists in the face.
Anyway, I don’t watch Mad Men (since its Sex and the City only worse) but I’ve seen that red haired chick in other things. She has a nice rack and looks wild in bed but I don’t find her that great and I’d be worried about fat thighs and cellulite if I were fucking her.
I heard that 0.68 was the ideal WHR for women and that Farrah Fawcett had it in her prime. Can’t remember where I read this.
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Reginald
“I just saw a study where women preferred men who spoke in an even monotone over men whose voices were more animated. The investigators thought the monotone projected power. That is likely biological, too.
And that, of course, explains how Henry Kissinger got Jill St. John to date him.”
Status trumps biology. Women dont love men. Queers love men.
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daft junk
Nicole –
“Just one point of contention…
The men that have access to drugs for erectile dysfunction that you speak of are currently living in the “gayest” time in human history. I am skeptical that there are an abundance of closeted homosexual men that are abusing these drugs to hide their sexual preference from their partners, but of course we will never know for sure.”
More like sexual preference for feminine non-man jaw women.
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Breeze,
If you don’t want to be seen as ignorant or weird, you ought to give some justification for this statement:
“I don’t watch Mad Men (since its Sex and the City only worse) ”
Mad Men is a superior show by every measure of television quality I can imagine.
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I’m sorta surprised the following bit of biological knowledge doesn’t seem to be in circulation around here: women make half of their testosterone in their adrenal glands.
If you can juice that, you’ve just increased their libidinal level by an appreciable amount. IOW, there’s a reason they invented scary movies and amusement park rides and double espresso drinks for everyday guys on dates.
Dopamine may be somewhere in the mix, but I think it’s secondary at best.
Regarding some of the other comments, nobody’s claiming WHR is the sole measure of physical attractiveness. But for a single well-defined and easy-to-calculate parameter, it’s difficult to beat in getting you most of the way there, provided the measurements upon which it’s based are trustworthy.
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I actually prefer “curvier” women for sex. However, I realize this is more of a fetish.
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Liverlips, it’s not a fetish. It just seems like one in a time when the mainstream ideal is overly androgynous. The line outside a curvy woman’s bedroom door is just as long or longer than a less curvy woman. There will just be fewer guys who want to see her outside the bedroom because she’s socially inconvenient.
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Martian, it’s easy to trigger a woman’s testosterone. Do something competitive or scary with her.
Certain activities, especially physical ones also give you the opportunity to show off your masculinity.
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@nicole
“Certain activities, especially physical ones also give you the opportunity to show off your masculinity.”
Studies have been made, scary stirs up sexual feelings
in men AND women. The standard test is one of those
rope-bridges, reasonably safe but it FEELS scary,
especially if there is a wind and the bridge goes across
a deep valley. At the end of the walk, you have nice-
looking women with clip boards interviewing the male
walkers (and vice versa).
Control group, same setup but a solid metal or concrete
bridge.
The interviewers at the end of the rope bridge got
the date offers.
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From what I have heard (both from Doctors and from women who should know), young men use erectile aids, too. You can’t party all night or all weekend without some help, especially if the booze is flowing freely. Ain’t natural.
I suspect Gay men use these drugs.
From my use of such drugs, I can say that effect is largely psychological at the beginning of the encounter. Gets one over lingering performance worries which aging males have. However, as the encounter extends in time, the drugs allows one to stay in the game longer, a lot longer.
The first time I used Viagra I couldn’t believe it. Like being 18 again.
I think Roissy is right. Viagra allows old guys to screw their old wives, but, you really don’t need it for young women.
BTW, these drugs are just smooth muscle relaxants. Nothing more. They give me heart burn. I know the drug is kicking in when I get nasal stuffiness (your nasal mucosa is erectile tissue, too. Go figure.) They used to make my ears turn bright red.
And don’t begrudge me this small pleasure. I was a researcher fairly early on in this field (cyclic nucleotides in humans. That’s how these drugs work.) So, at last some medical research which paid off for me!
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“Having a big bum, hips and thighs ‘is healthy'”
Carrying extra weight on your hips, bum and thighs is good for your health, protecting against heart and metabolic problems, UK experts have said.
Hip fat mops up harmful fatty acids and contains an anti-inflammatory agent that stops arteries clogging, they say.
Big behinds are preferable to extra fat around the waistline, which gives no such protection, the Oxford team said.
Science could look to deliberately increase hip fat, they told the International Journal of Obesity.
And in the future, doctors might prescribe ways to redistribute body fat to the hips to protect against cardiovascular and metabolic diseases such as diabetes.
The researchers said having too little fat around the hips can lead to serious metabolic problems, as occurs in Cushing’s syndrome.
– http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8451674.stm
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@ Polymath
“Breeze,
If you don’t want to be seen as ignorant or weird, you ought to give some justification for this statement:
“I don’t watch Mad Men (since its Sex and the City only worse) ”
Mad Men is a superior show by every measure of television quality I can imagine.”
I don’t care what most people think of me and I certainly don’t care what randoms over the internet think of me, but I’ll try and give you a quick description of what Mad Men really is since I’m feeling generous:
A woman’s fantasy: A stable heirachy where all the guys know their place. An extremely over the top alpha male being an arsehole and having sex.
Betas being sleazy and losers.
Draper is almost a clone of Mr Big from Sex and the City (and female romance novels).
Instead of women imaging themselves being Carrie they imagine themselves be seduced by Draper.
That ought to be enough for you to see the show for the bullshit it is.
I stopped watching TV because every show is female orientated now, some are just dressed up to appear otherwise.
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@Martian Bachelor
“I’m sorta surprised the following bit of biological knowledge doesn’t seem to be in circulation around here: women make half of their testosterone in their adrenal glands.”
Thanks, I’ve know that for years but I never really grasped the fact and seen the implications until this moment. WOW.
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Thor, yes, it’s the biker’s secret.
A good example of a reasonably scary date would be taking a jeep off road to a nice place to have a picnic or camp. Paintball or airsoft are fun and they hurt. Anything involving white water is cool too.
I suspect that these kinds of things would be good LTR game too. Doing stuff that might kill or injure them tends to remind folks what’s really important in life.
Grampa, I don’t have a problem with it if a guy uses it to do what he wants to do. It’s when a guy uses it to force himself to do what he doesn’t, that’s disturbing.
One has to wonder how much the market for ED drugs is driven by wives with unrealistic standards, and guys feeling inadequate for simply being human.
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The hourglass figure in technical terms requires a waist measurement that is 9″-10″ smaller than the bust and hip which are supposed to be equal to each other. An example of this is:
36-26-36
Another thing to remember is that the bra band size is not where the bust is measured at, rather, the band size subtracted from the bust size determines whether the cup is an A-B-C or D.
And if Kim Kardashian’s measurements are 35-26.5-40 in reality, I don’t want to scare anyone but this reality exists only in a a parallel universe and we need to find our way back to the real world.
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All great examples. My favorite is the tried and true and easily accessible common favorite theme of all time – public sex. No matter where you go, there you are. Ready for public sex.
Which is why I never let my girls wear panties.
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“Nicole:
…One has to wonder how much the market for ED drugs is driven by wives with unrealistic standards, and guys feeling inadequate for simply being human…”
Not as many as you’d think. A number of women experience a reduced sex drive after they have kids, for example. And a number of men opt for ED drugs because they want to be able to impress younger women in bed with what they perceive to be what said younger women will be impressed with (after of course the amount of money they make). Some are even hoping to outperform any younger male competitors & stay in the race for getting to bed as many different young women as they can.
I’d even go as far as to say that men are taking said drugs to feel like they can pee just as high on the tree as any other guy around marking the territory.
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Basically you nailed the point. Just one thing was left unclear:
“hope remains that […] aging broads can find love just as easily as hot, slender 21 year old babes”
Men’s Lolita-needs and our need for optimal hip-to-waist ratio girls and women are separate entities that must be appreciated and respected individually to avoid misunderstandings. Yes, they are related, but still separate. Like sisters. And you can have both, or one can trumph the other.
If girls work out intensively an hour a day 5 days a week, eat right and live healthy, they’ll usually end up with a way more attractive mid section at 35 than today’s generation of young fatties from the stricken areas. The problem is the vast amount of women don’t do sports at any sort of high level. Not swimming, jogging, dancing, yoga or gymnastics in a sort of way that tells the body to burn the fat to reveal the curves because it’s being used hard on a regular basis. And after a few decades of inactivity and bad habits, it starts to fall apart.
Right now I’m screwing a girl so old she’s almost 30 and just over 5 years younger than me. Because I have a lot of choice in girls I usually prefer the younger ones. But my current one has a lot of sex appeal in addition to the other things you’d expect from an older girl. I think it’s her slim waist and firm yet sub cutaneously fatty ass that does it. And her her assets in that regard rest the fact that she works out once in a while, and has good genes. Also, in an entirely unrelated context, I bonked two of her sisters and they were really good lays and had very tight, athletic bodies.
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[…] quotes a study suggesting that Even Blind Men Prefer The Optimal 0.7 Waist-To-Hip Ratio. I really hate the “Citizen Renegade” handle, by the […]
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You know, this seems to be a no-brainer… Relatively wider hips = larger birth canal = more healthy babies.
I would also guess that skinny would rate lower on the male preference than slightly plump. Skinny = lower estrogen = lower fertility. I find it culturally curious that many of the current iconic female forms are so skinny that they quite possibly have stopped menstruating.
A thing to ALWAYS remember about biology, though. Those “outliers” of preference occur because they are useful sometimes. “Fitness” is a two sided function between a trait and its environment.
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[…] The State + Women = Boot Stamping On A Beta Face, Even Blind Men Prefer The Optimal 0.7 Waist-To-Hip Ratio, […]
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What else is new.. of course, men like an hour glass figure, it’s evolution. Just like women prefer taller, broader shoulders, smaller hips/stomach. The upside triangle. 🙂
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whether u r a .7 or .68, its all about proportion….7 may look better on some women vs. others. in fact, this is true. hourglass shapes aren’t the only sought after bodies. i have dated athletic and pear shapes..although not necessarily hourglass figures, they had nice bodies that i and other guys would love to have. i actually prefer a more slender (yet, somewhat curvy) athletic shape..over the typical hourglass. but that’s just me!
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yes, women like tall men..fortunately i’m 6 even, not that that’s really considered tall nowadays. but a 5’10 man can be equally attractive i would think, just not as tall. i’ve seen hott women with not so tall guys who werent exactly rich either. similarly, there are women who are less than a perfect .7 and are still rather attractive (body and face wise).
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[…] which undoubtedly plays some role, consider a recent study from the Netherlands that found even blind men found thin women the most attractive — especially those with a waist/hip ratio around .7. This suggests a […]
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Somehow I don’t get why men always say feminist have a problem with mne liking attarctive women. Feminism is about equal rights for women not getting men. Any man who thinks that is just projecting their inability to get women.
The women who are bitchy and jealous about good looking women are usually dumb women who suck up to men and hate other women. Duh.
Stop blaming feminists for everything. You just prove the points feminists make about men being pigs.
Most women dont care what men like they just resent the fact that mne think that gives them the right to.
A. Hit on us all the time.
or
b. Put us down about how we look.
I mean why would you waste your time getting so nagyr about womne compliang about what you lke. Most womne dont care. It’s a small minoirty of insecure womne who do.
I think men have a problem with being claled pervrets, losers and sleazes and like to attack feminsist’s etc because they feel dirty and gorss and cant get hott women.
Seriously like hott womne but why not go oput and get one if your all so hott and stop bitching about unatarctiuve women?
Oh and most womne have hip waits ratios of 0.7. I thought that was normal. Me and almost all my friends do.
If any womne is complianing about men liking 0.7, it’s not about her not bveing able to get a man but more likely men thinking they are all entitled to attractive wo9mne and geting so nasdty and bitter when they cant get one and writing stupid blogs like this that take a perfecdtl;y good study and use it to argue againts frminsits, who from what I have seen are more about equal pay, equal rights than demanding men like unattarctuive womne.
More like men call us womne shallow and get angry at us for not wanting to sl;eep with pudgy, ugly men.
Men are the ones whop spend all their time obssessing over how to gte mates not womne. Left alone, most womne are perfectly happy without men, and men cant handle the factt hey are so insignicant to us so beat and stamp their feet and behave so nasty to any womne who doesnt fit their ridiculous ideals.
Heck I used to be chubby, got treated like crap. Now I’m thin and men dont leave me alone. It really pisses me off. Cant win either way.
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Oh yea and if men have such a problem with unattarctive women wanting men to like them,why do men get so angry and hostile about not being able to get sex when countless research has proven for one night stands and casual sex only good looking men are preffered mates, even rich men have to pay.
Womne only want quick sex with hott men. Ugly and unattarctive men lose out way more on one night stnads etc, even money ionlky turns a girl on after getting to know a guy if it ever does.
So maybe men should stop complianing about womne sprefercne for short term sex partners with hott bodies and abs etc?
Men call us shallow yet expect women not to complian.
I knwo way more men eho get upset about womens sexual preferences than I do womne who get upset about mens.
Where are all these insecure feminsits desperate for men?
They seem to only exist on rants on the internet?
Last time I checked it was men who get all angry and nasty when they cant attract the oppistuie sex.
Just look at the fucking rape rate.
This is coming form somoene who gets caled a shallow bitch all the time when after being repeatedly pestered by certain mne I lose my temper and tell them they are ugly and thats why I am not interested.
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@anonymous
Nonsense. Many of the most ardent – bordering on
crazy – feminists, like Andrea Dworkin, are frightfully
ugly. (Some are hot, however.)
And they DO resent the fact that appearances count
in women. (They count for men too, but maybe not
quite as much, and in a different way.)
Another strain finds it wrongful to be judged
on looks for jobs that are not involving
interacting with the public. IMHO, they have a
point, but life is not fair, face it. In US presidential
elections, the taller candidate usually wins.
Bizarre but true. Life is not “fair” in that way,
and you get to play the hand you are dealt,
this goes for both men and women.
Thor
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really interesting this kind of thing, that it’s all mathematical in the end 🙂 I measured my body but I am quite petite, 161 cm. My waist was 26 inch and my hips 36.9 inch which gave a ratio of 0.70, so I think there’s a lot of “perfect” measures. I also think a larger woman can still have a 0.7 ratio, it will never be like how they proclaime it: that Jessica Alba has and always will have the perfect body.
When they measured her, it was for the Sin City movie. She has changed since then, she became a lot skinnier. But if you look at her in Sin City, basically any guy I have ever spoken to, was attracted to her that time. It was the top of her carrier body-wise, 2005/2006.
But I envy those with bigger curves than me, I look like a mix of curves yet very subtle curves. When men look at me, it’s never like: “DAMN! That girl is hot!”, they just stare as if they’re trying to figure something out, I don’t know!
Haha:) OK math-freaks. Keep the discussion going 🙂
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I just stumbled upon your site by accident but read your article and some of your other material. I fall into the 0.7 category and get looks etc so this is no new news to me. I am just interested to know what you look like – no pics on your site…since you are into judging and all you must be amazingly hot (no?). This site just kind of alerts women to the very real possibility that you don’t have much luck with the ladies. All the guys I know who get some are not so frantic about females because they have their pick and great success. It’s just not a good look advertising your lack and desperation so openly. Just some advice…
– women can smell an alpha male a mile away (tip: he won’t be found on this site or any other like it)
– since all men are wanting 0.7 waist/hip ratio and there are only a small proportion of the female population
with this shape, only a small proportion of men (with the equivalent assets) will get them so… move on and accept your designated position.
I wish you all the best.
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Thanks poster.
Yea I am sure if I choose to continue to live I will be fine and can have as many hot woman as I desire.
But yea when I get back to my own magical weight of round 180 then yea all woman will again be magically linked to my nuts and work will be easy again along with everything in life. I won’t have to try to get promoted and people will just kiss my ass because I am perfect. But it was nice to know that even not perfect I could still get people to kiss my ass. lol
But having gone through my fat phase hopefully I will have learned something about life.
””””’- women can smell an alpha male a mile away (tip: he won’t be found on this site or any other like it)
– since all men are wanting 0.7 waist/hip ratio and there are only a small proportion of the female population”””””
By that definition though all men on this site can be alpha because a shitload of woman can smell a dollar a mile away and alpha beta omega or sigma a man can fuck a woman with a .7 with that dollar in his hand.
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Paying for it doesn’t count! Money doesn’t equal attraction. My point was that there is a lot to be gained from self acceptance. Men don’t need to be an ‘alpha male’ or a ‘beta’ accessing ‘alpha females’ to be happy. Why not just be content with what you are and the women in your league? Women settle all the time and you don’t see the majority of them whingeing about their perceived entitlement to the top males. If guys turned off their computers and stop watching porn etc they would start to find enjoyment in what is accessible to them. For a site that draws on psychological research (albeit evolutionary) surely you can be open to the psychological research that shows realistic goals are most satisfying to humans.
Speaking of psych research. This research is only part of the picture – it’s only relevant for the areas tested. There’s research revealing that the indigenous people of Peru prefer a thicker waist line (google it) and many Pacific Island populations also prefer this. So to have a convincing argument it is a good idea to check out all evidence first. There are constant scientific academic arguments on this topic and not all led by those ‘scary’ feminists who are out to ruin your fun.
Finally, this rating business is bizarre. What is the point? I know I have been rated before and just because guys announce they would ‘do’ me etc is ludicrous. Now that I am considered worthy to be bonked by some low life scum I am supposed to be overwhelmed with thankfulness and fulfill his request? What a joke. Supposing the evolutionary theory is correct, doesn’t men rating women contradict this? The theory is for a male to spread his seed far and wide, not wasting time to be choosy. That is the female role since she invests so much more into her choice. So are guys that rate becoming more feminine? Possibly. The bottom line is that women will always be the real choosers. So if rating makes a man feel more in control I guess rate away… we all try to protect our ego somehow.
I’ve wasted enough time here so I won’t bother any of you anymore. But please consider getting off these weird blogs, accept yourself and others as they are (no crazy ratings) and actually get a life!!! You may just find you will be more attractive to the opposite sex 🙂
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Betty Brosmer a supermodel from the 50,s had the best waist to hip ratio- ever. A true hourglass. A perfect figure.
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“Supposing the evolutionary theory is correct, doesn’t men rating women contradict this? The theory is for a male to spread his seed far and wide, not wasting time to be choosy. That is the female role since she invests so much more into her choice. ”
“Wasting time” is waiting for the boner to appear.
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[…] manages a swiping glance at the truth. Naomi Wolf has a track record of immersing herself in a stinking pile of pretty lies, but her contention that widespread porn availability numbs men to the pleasures of “real […]
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[…] manages a swiping glance at the truth. Naomi Wolf has a track record of immersing herself in a stinking pile of pretty lies, but her contention that widespread porn availability numbs men to the pleasures of “real […]
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Roissy, isn’t a 0.7 WHR pretty large?
Brigitte Bardot had a WHR 0.58. Virtually every woman in the 40’s-60’s had WHR in the low 0.6’s. Why are such large WHR desired today?
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Poster
Keep in mind that the thoughts inside of the heads of fat-girls regarding sex, romance, etc. are to men just meaningless noise.
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You have to maintain a routine of at least 30 to 45minutes of cardio activity four times a week.
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