April 21, 2010 by CH
What is it with left wingers and their sick compulsion to denigrate everything that is good about their countries? I’d hate to think it’s something as banal as snooty status jockeying to distance themselves from the lesser patriotic proles, but that’s probably it.
Hey, Clegg, while you’re feeling bad for the Nazis maybe you could spare a moment to feel bad for the London subway bombers? There’s a good chap.
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Why is a story about some tool brit politician filed under “Goodbye America”?
[editor: feedback loops.]
please stick to the posts about sarging.
[this day must have broken a hater record.]
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Liberalism like feminism is a mental disorder and that is the reason why nothing they say or do makes any sense.
They are like children who want to eat ice cream every day of thier life because it tastes good without the understanding that it will make them sick and anyone who tries to tell them to stop is just a mean hater.
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A douchebag is a douchebag. If you think liberals have a monopoly on crackpots then I got a tea party invitation for you.
If you’re going to bitch about crackpots on one side and tarr an entire ideology with them, you have to be prepared to wear it with your own.
And I’m not a liberal.
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Why is a story about some tool brit politician filed under “Goodbye America”?
It’s a disease they caught from us.
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Clegg’s recent popularity has made the dailymail angry; they’re going that far back for dirt.
Their oversensationalisation seemingly out of context for transparent political motivations is typical of the incompetent media.
[editor: it’s hard to concoct a context that would make clegg’s remarks look reasonable.]
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There is a movement and a sex columnist that believes all men should be pegged up the ass by women.
Seems like asking women to fuck men up the ass with a strap on dildo is all the rage.
The call is for fair play and role reversal. They say every man should be penetrated to get a feel for what women go through. Womens equality and
Men getting in touch with their fem side.
And Men are voluntarily asking for this??? They insist that they are not gay.
Wtf!
[editor: keith just nair’ed his asshole in anticipation.]
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[this day must have broken a hater record]
Not a hater – I like your articles on women a lot.
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white power!
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I’ts hard to even describe his party as “liberal”, they are basically just mash and hash of mixed policies and pupported insta-solutions to complex problems. They basically just choose an opposing line on anything and everything that the labour party and the conservatives propose, left or right wing.
As a brit i have to vote for one of these stupid cunts(or not i guess). I’m leaning towards David Cameron, he got egged today by some sixteen year old kid and insulted by some dude dressed as a chicken but seemed to take it all in his stride(pretty alpha). hes a pretty funny guy. I also like how he rips on other party leaders in the house of commons, it’s just a shame i’m having to contemplate voting based upon the candidates sense of humour rather than decent policies.
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What I’m reading from the quotations quoted word is ‘Why the hell are WE poorer than those ex-Nazi bastards?’ translated from politically correct speak.
I’m not defending him. I don’t particularly like or want Clegg. I was expecting Cameron to mow them down, after seeing him in his Budget speech.
It’s just that particularly bad journalism annoys me.
By the way, you’ll be interested in this on Clegg:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/822618-nick-clegg-surges-with-women-in-election-poll
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that said rupert murdoch does own david cameron’s soul.
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Hmm…I don’t agree with liberal types very often but I’ll make an exception here. Any grandeur the Allies gained during WW2 was canceled out by the bombing of Dresden which we RARELY hear about.
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Clegg’s an idiot, the subway bombers were patsies, and our country is about as good as yours now – that is to say, a fascist enclave of serfs and bankers who are taking us into the Greatest Depression, and possibly World War 3.
But his treasury secretary, Vince Cable, is pretty good. Not as good as your Ron Paul, though.
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Political discussion is appropriate on this blog, not only because of legislation relevant to divorce, marriage, and so on, but because the social and the political are intertwined.
They are much more intertwined on the left than on the right, though. When someone is conservative it is usually easy to avoid politics with them, but for many liberals their politics is an essential part of their core identity. They disqualify people because of politics very easily, because they are made uncomfortable by relationships with people who disagree with them (emotion trumps logic so they tend turn political discussions into emotional shit tests).
This propensity can be gamed. The idea is not to directly challenge a liberal chick’s political views, just to make it clear you disagree and demonstrate such powerful command of facts and logic in all contexts that she will be afraid to try to argue you out of your positions — always call her on it when she makes a fallacious emotion-based argument. As long as you don’t bring up the subjects of disagreement yourself and don’t try to convert her, she’ll experience cognitive dissonance that someone she likes and respects doesn’t have the views all good people ought to have without being able to resolve the situation. Keeping her off-balance like this will get the juices flowing.
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Clegg is right. Both the English and us Americans pat ourselves on the back entirely too much about WWII. The Russians beat Hitler. That’s a fact with no political bias.
You seem to think that an Englishman has no place criticising England.
Stick to the PUA stuff. Kill a few more pretty lies. Leave the politics to John Cole.
[editor: eh the russians just threw a bunch of warm bodies and cold weather at the krauts. skill level: 0]
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Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
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@Joey Gireud
Yeah but why is he even talking about the war? It’s pretty irrelevant, most people don’t walk around thinking how great they are because of the war. The country is fucked because there is a blatant technological brain drain, the benefits system, breakdown of family etc and these factors have little to nothing to do with a war 70 years ago.
Nick clegg suggested ditching the 100 billion investment in trident. I’m not totally against that, but the point is Britain SHOULD be able make it’s own missile defence system. 100 billion into the hands of british defence contracters and hi-tech industry workers would be a GOOD thing. 100 billion into the hands of lockheed martin, US workers and through taxation the US government is not. But britain simply doesn’t have the research and development or the big industry, so we’re fucked on that front. Both germany and japan could create missile defense systems to rival the US in no time at all were it not for stigma left over from the second world war.
Jew scientists, most of them from germany or german occupied territories and educated by Werner Heisenberg himself won world war 11. Many of them signed objections to using the bomb on japan. THAT BOMB WAS MEANT FOR GERMANY.
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To the guy who thinks that the Russians beat the Nazi’s don’t forget that the British and Americans also had to fight Japan. Fighting a 2 front war over oceans was a major accomplishment. Russians sacrificed alot but don’t diminish contributions of other countries.
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even the fucking soviets with a communist sham/slave economy made better nukes than us.
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White Woman
The fact is, the allies tried to achieve a Dresden level firestorm every day and night for years. It only worked a few times. What part of “total war” is unclear to you?
The A bomb was lurking in the background. If the Nazis had stayed around a little longer… well, out of respect for our German friends, the least said about that the better.
A good read about the Eastern Front is a new book called “Absolute War”. It is just stunning. A lot of new stuff has come out. It turns out that the Russians were willing to fight on a ten to one loss ratio. They expected it in many cases.
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@Cannon’s Canon
nuff said
@ Roissy
I am sorry this guy upsetted you. Unfortunately the people who rise to power these days are not always the ideal, but doesn’t mean we can’t live a good life. No?
I say light a candle, take a shit, and forgetaboutit!
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A liberal questioning the FDR narrative? That’s funny.
But what was the Allies’ motive in WWII. As usual, Mencius Moldbug has a rediculously erudite answer. No need for me to recreate the wheel:
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2010/03/world-war-ii-primary-sourcebook.html
I may not agree with you on this point; however, i do appreciate the color commentary and guess this enterprise would quickly ose interest for you and your readers if you only talked game.
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[editor: eh the russians just threw a bunch of warm bodies and cold weather at the krauts. skill level: 0]
Ah yes but those bodies fucking saved your miserable skins later, didn’t they? That cannon fodder held off the Germans at Leningrad and Stalingrad and so many other places, forcing Hitler to divert troops to the Russian Front.
Stick to the PUA stuff, you have no idea about history, strategy, or Britain’s political scene which can *not* be understood by an American.
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I have read extensively about World War II for many years.
That man is worse than a fool.
Item: Stalin actively helped Hitler come to power in Germany. Nobody wants to talk about that today. Too awkward. Without Stalin, likely no Hitler.
Item: The Russians would have been defeated by Germany if not for American and British aid.
Item: England declared war on Germany, not vice versa. England went to war to prevent the military spread of German power, in this case, its takeover of Poland. Russia actively participated in the invasion of Poland.
Item: Without Russian raw supplies, provided without limit by Stalin, Hitler could not have built up his Army or invaded his neighbors.
Item: Russia only went to war against Germany when it was attacked by Germany. Until then it was happy to let the Germans murder and kill anybody they wanted to.
Item: The English blockade of Western Europe forced Hitler, like Napoleon before him, to either surrender or attack Russia.
I could go on. And on. And on. But, Clegg should be disqualified from holding office, anywhere. So, he could run on the American Democratic ticket. He has good hair and will appeal to the American woman voter.
BTW, these sorts of people have been with us for ever. Just think of men like Kim Philby. We earn their contempt everyday when we tolerate their existence.
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Hitler made two mistakes:
Hating on the jews, or at least not killing the smart ones(edward teller, leo szilard etc) before they dashed to america.
Attacking the communists, or at least attacking them too soon.
Were it not for these two circumstances, the nazis would have the A-bomb and be running things right about now.
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To anyone who has read the “road to serfdom”, Britain’s situation is pretty ironic.
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White Woman: “Any grandeur the Allies gained during WW2 was canceled out by the bombing of Dresden which we RARELY hear about.”
Boo freaking hoo. Bad things happen in war: the Japanese perform nasty scientific experiments on allied POWs, the Rape of Nanking, the Russians murder 20,000 captured Polish officers in Katyn forest because…they can!
But take your moral equivalence and shove it up your ass. We were the good guys, and we beat the bad guys. I guess you’ll just have to learn to live with being on the right side, which must be awful for a self loathing leftist.
Stupid cunt.
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‘White Woman’ also must not subscribe to the theory that FDR facilitated the bombing of Pearl Harbor so that we could fight a “patriotic” war rather than a “moral” one.
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Anyone have any idea why morons grow like weeds on the wrong side of the Atlantic?
The Germans and the Japanese had little chance to actually invade in the U.S. A credible threat of such would be required for any miserable skin saving. Say, oh, I don’t know, there was an island off the coast of continental Europe which could not possibly stand alone forever and needed help. The power that came to that hypothetical island’s aide would, indeed, be saving said hypothetical island’s miserable skin.
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i enjoy getting bombed and listening to gabriel & dresden
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I just read the Clegg comment. It is insulting on many levels. For a start, Britain bankrupted itself to fight the war and indeed paid back to the US a monstrous war-debt. The Germans started after the war with a blank slate, apart from piddling reparations to Israel.
And does it not occur to Clegg that some things are more valuable for a nation over the long run than mere economic efficiency?
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It is time, friend Roissy, to call it a day.
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I wish I had more opportunities to use the phrase “stupid cunt”….well, without getting arrested for it after some stupid cunt gets crazy over it and calls the police after being sprayed in the face with pepper spray….what? A girl should be allowed to protect herself from people she calls stupid cunts, right?
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We hear whining and breast-beating about Dresden from the Left all the time. It leaves me unmoved. Who started the war? Who wouldn’t quit when it was obviously lost? Who started the whole “bombing enemy cities” thing?
They didn’t save us (America). They didn’t even save Britain, since Germany had no chance to invade Britain. The only skins the Russkies saved were their own.
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So Clegg said:
1. Every country in Europe has some cross to bear
2. “And none more so than Germany, with its memories of Nazism”
3. But Britain’s cross is not one of guilt, unlike Germany’s. It is more seductive and harmful because it is not obviously bad–in his exact words, it’s more “insidious.”
4. The ‘cross’ is the British people’s excessive focus on Britain’s glorious past instead of the serious problems they face.
Seems to me a clear-eyed assessment–Britain hasn’t been a military or economic superpower in a long time, and if they want to be one again, it’s harmful to persist in delusions that they still are.
It’s rare for politicians to try to destroy pretty lies like this because, as the Daily Mail editorial illustrates beautifully, voters like pretty lies.
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Direct, unapologetic anti-left wing posts are deliciously alpha. 🙂
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“The Germans and the Japanese had little chance to actually invade in the U.S.A. . . .” – cptnapalm
Then what the hell happened at Pearl Harbor?
On the other hand ‘Grandpa’, Britain declared war in the sense that if the Germans invade Poland then they’d declare war. This isn’t morally equivalent of the Britain invading Germany for the heck of it. Saying “I will kill you” is a crime versus “if you hurt my children I will kill you” is a (probably) legal threat.
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“…Then the Mail splashes on Nick Clegg in Nazi slur on Britain as he claims ‘our delusions of grandeur’ at winning war are more a cross to bear than German guilt. This, dear reader, relates to a piece Clegg wrote for the Guardian in 2002 in which he recalled the embarrassment he felt on a school exchange to Germany during which his classmates made Hitler salutes and generally acted like oafs. The Mail story is a bit like watching a Killer Whale go after a kitten and miss.”
– Alex Massie, The Spectator 22 Apr ’10
http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/5932740/operation-kneecap-clegg-begins.thtml
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Rum…I will check out the books, thanks for the recommendation.
A10-I’m far from a leftist. I’m far, far, far to the right; still, I hate all unnecessary slaughters.
C-word? Come on.
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White Woman – whilst it’s considered decent that one side doesn’t kill civilians for the sake of it, they are not obliged to leave a miliitary target be because civilians reside there too. After all, if one side knew the other side will never attack a military target if civilians are present then all they have to do is put military targets in civilian areas. However how is a civilian necessarily innocent? If women and children are factory workers making guns, ammo, bombs, fighter planes, etc., for the war efort then they are in effect soldiers too. A truly innocent civilian is someone who is not part of the war effort whatsoever. Of course, should women and children take up arms and become soldiers themselves then they’re dead meat.
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i’m really not mad at Mike’s analysis, in a slightly different vein. britain transparently has trended anti-white/pro-muslim of late (like america trending pro-NAM). while this is different than the polar opposite of hitler’s infamous tenet, it seems very comparable.
sorry Bhetti. your liberal theism will collapse into liberal atheism or conservative theism eventually, under enough duress.
so, it seems like this ass Clegg is trying to latch onto the momentum of the BNP fanbase, under the guise of “liberalism” aka non-anti-fiat-banking. my retort, in a nutshell? “Suck America’s WN dick!”
no homo
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Pearl Harbor wasn’t an invasion. It was an attempt to knock out the U.S. long enough for Japan to consolidate its Asian holdings. It was an unprovoked attack, not an invasion attempt.
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napalm, i’d disagree that PH was “unprovoked”, though surely not an invasion. in short, america withholding oil forced japan’s hand. if japan didn’t act first in declaring war, they’d have been left impotent… not just in regards to military capability – imagine a society in the 40’s where oil truly doesn’t exist. our little pissing match over guam’s sovereignty, or whatever god-forsaken little resort we were beefing over, which we promptly ceased to care about, was like a glove-slap to the cheek, then drawing the epee.
but to your point, WW2 certainly involved japanese delusions of grandeur.
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cptnapalm,
my response is in moderation. by no means a refutation, but check for it in the morning if you like.
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Yes, magnanimity in victory can indeed be taken too far, I think you have won any argument here, how clever.
PS Although all politicians are whores at heart, British politicians have absolutely no shame, they are a disgrace, so horrid, the opponents of universal suffrage obviously foresaw Mumsnet.
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I like your political posts and wish you wrote more, but I would because we are on the same page politically. Maybe you don’t write more political posts because I noticed some of your readers get annoyed.
As an American my favorite British politicians are Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan. Some great Youtube videos with those guys.
I hope the BNP wins or whatever is going on over there, just to see the liberals go nuts.
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Just 70 words and I couldn’t have put it better.
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Liberals care less about the survival of their group and more about the good of humankind as a whole. Who in particular benefits from a policy doesn’t matter. This is why they don’t mind wealth distribution programs for whom the beneficiaries are mostly going to be minorities, and why they have no problem undermining of their own nation-state if some idea makes sense for humanity as a whole.
Conservatives want to see their group as the winners of society. The one whose continued existence, or dominance, is manifest destiny. This group they swear fealty to is usually racial, but it can rarely be political or social. Everything else they advocate or profess is just a rationalization of their absolute loyalty.
This is the real cognitive difference between them.
I’m not advocating anything. Conservatives are probably going to see me as a conservative, liberals will see me as liberal.
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Roissy, as much as I enjoy reading your blog you are completely missing the point on this one. I consider myself right of centre but I agree with him.
Clegg is referring to Germany’s economic success since the war and simply saying that we Brits have become too complacent. We are too obsessed with past victories whilst our wartime enemies (Germany and Japan) have both overtaken us economically.
In any case, The Daily Mail is not fit to be called a newspaper and slavishy carries the Tory line. The Conservatives are currently rattled by Clegg’s ascent to popularity with public disdain towards the main two parties. It is a highly biased rag of a journal that coincidentally sided with Hitler’s policies before WWII.
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Aspirant, the problem for both is that what seems so, isn’t always what is so.
Besides, for the rich, it is always about self interest no matter what they say.
I’d rather be fighting an opponent standing in front of me than behind me pretending to be my friend.
Conservatives are scary, and liberals are sneaky. Leaders of both are exploiting everyone, and just saying what people in their target groups want to hear.
They’re all liars and thieves.
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Nicole: You’re mistaking liberals and conservatives for republicans and democrats. They’re the ones who have learned to harness these human tendencies to their own ends.
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$50 says these are the same types of guys who like to watch other men fuck their wives.
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You’re taking the Daily Mail at face value? As your primary source? Did your online subscription to the Nat’l Enquirer run out?
Stick with the Weekly World News, at least then the fantasy is entertaining.
Me personally, I think Bat Boy should just step up his game and own it.
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sakaya–
The Guardian is slavishly leftist and enforces strict PC censorship. Come election time it slavishly follows Labour’s line.
It will clearly be better for Britain if the Torys win. Further I do hope they slash and burn welfare to your Chav class of undeserving lifetime ‘Shameless’ loafers.
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Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
cosmopolitanism is the first refuge of the deranged.
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Partly that.
The Japanese weren’t wrong that the Euro colonialist had become paper tigers in E. Asia. Britain was way overstretched there and Japan was entirely right that it could knock out Britain and the Dutch (who then held Indonesia and a lot of producing oil wealth). They did underestimate the eventual strength of the communists in China, drawing upon that countries sense of wounded pride and humiliation at it’s defacto division into foreign Euro sphere of influence, in it’s Manchu dynasty decadence.
They didn’t so much underestimate the potential military strength of America as our willingness to fight, in our own democratic and consumerist decadence, in the eyes of the disciplined along fascist principles Japanese war hierarchy.
Bombing Pearl Harbor and taking the Philippines were both a big mistake, maneuvered to happen by FDR. The Japs should have ignored our declared embargo of Dutch oil, and captured the Dutch strongholds of Indonesia straight away. Roosevelt would have had a tough time getting the US congress to declare war against the Japanese on that basis, or because they send their destroyers after our submarines after we sunk one of their tankers or warships. Congress and the large bulk of the country was still very “isolationist” (against a major war like WWI only this time our getting in much earlier) on the eve of Pearl Harbor, despite Jewish and other efforts to the contrary (and ridicule/vilification of that ‘isolationist’ feeling then and since).
btw at the time our torpedos were doing anything but going “hot straight and narrow”. They were instead veering off and not exploding and actually rarely working right. so that embargo threat was a bit hollow, unless WE initiated a full scale carrier fleet attack on their fleets and oil convoys. Which would clearly have meant FDR declared a major war w/out Congressional backing. That would have been major dicey for him, given the degree of opposition.
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Joey Giraud
The Russians couldn’t have done it without American war supplies and materiel, shipped to them through the White Sea. They also couldn’t have done it without the American bolstered and then lead 2nd front with the British. Starting in north Africa, but really starting in Italy. Rommel was one of Hitler’s very best field commanders, if not the best, and he was chewed up and used up in the Africa campaign.
Roissy’s right about the relative German and Russian fighting abilities. The Germans killed Russian soldiers on a 7 to 1 ratio throughout the war. Higher at the beginning, lower but still by a large ratio at the end. HUGE ratio.
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Joey Giraud–
German soldiers were remarkably disciplined, brave and efficient, excellently lead (except for the very top by Hitler, which was a major reason for the defeat at Russian hands) and very intelligently equipped — making a medium level of capacity stretch very far with great technical excellence and innovation in weaponry.
Russian soldiers when things got rough were as much motivated by not being shot from the rear guard by cadres of soldiers w/machine guns commanded by communist party “political officers” for retreating under withering German fire.
The second most disciplined soldiers overall in WWII were probably the Brits. Elite American units, rangers, paratroops and marines, and yeah our airmen, could hold their own against any of the Axis soldiers and then some, but the mass of the American army — not so much. E.g. at the battle of the bulge.
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@DrSmooth
A douchebag is a douchebag. If you think liberals have a monopoly on crackpots then I got a tea party invitation for you.
If you’re going to bitch about crackpots on one side and tarr an entire ideology with them, you have to be prepared to wear it with your own.
And I’m not a liberal.
No, you’re a douchbag and a commie and are hiding behind the Liberal label as a ruse. Don’t believe what Keith Odermann tells you so much.
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@dcoops
To the guy who thinks that the Russians beat the Nazi’s don’t forget that the British and Americans also had to fight Japan. Fighting a 2 front war over oceans was a major accomplishment. Russians sacrificed alot but don’t diminish contributions of other countries.
The Germans placed 80% of their war effort against the Soviets. We bought them guns, trucks, tanks, and planes, but they lost the men. They also wasted a lot of manpower, but that’s another story.
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doug,
fine; agreed. the japs surely wanted to expand west, not east or straight-south. but there is always consideration for cannon’s liberal arts poli-sci maxim #31: don’t fight ground wars in asia. i just can’t imagine what japan was thinking would happen. was our “free trade” plague really so corrosive as to inspire the kamikaze? if so, they’re smarter than us whites now, or them jews back in the day.
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So dissent stops being patriotic when the left in is power and at that point it becomes sedition?
I have seen what patriotism does to ‘women’ like Hillary Clinton and it is obvious that they don’t know dick like I know dick – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuLrr4TX5pE – so paint me seditious. Pretty please.
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What is it with left wingers and their sick compulsion to denigrate everything that is good about their countries?
Probably for the same reason right-wingers don’t want to admit their country is less than perfect. Complex thoughts give people headaches. Better to have an ideology that answers all your questions ahead of time and just go with it.
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So dissent stops being patriotic when the left in is power and at that point it becomes sedition?
And dissent will stop being patriotic again as soon as the Right is in power. Fox News praise of dissent will become criticism of traitors when the shoe is on the other foot. This is tediuous watching the Right accuse the left of hypocrisy but not realizing the sword cuts both ways. You see this alot with the Right calling the Left PC when obviously the Right benefits by political correctness as much as the left (note how we bend over backward to accomodate Christians and the Red State rabble who we dare not judge for being “culturally insensitive). This virus of “taking offense” knows no political orientation.
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On loyalty/disloyalty to America — there is no “America.” Or, there are two Americas:
1. there is the cosmopolitan power-elite and their wannabes plus hangers-on. And their allied underclass.
Their sphere of influence goes global so in practical terms you can say that they are post-Americans. Or alternately, you could say that they are working to transform the entire world into an America.
2. there are the descendants of America’s core founding population plus assimilated nth generation immigrants, who identify themselves as Americans. They are neither at the top nor the bottom of our society but in its load-bearing middle. They have no ambitions to exert influence over any place beyond the US’s borders, merely to preserve the particularity of their own country.
Both “Americans’ are loyal to their own America, to the death. Make no mistake of dismissing the lefties as latte-sipping wimps. They will bleed for their country too.
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Brian – I am not offended.
I’ll happily accept the left’s definition of patriotism, because I’d rather be seditious than be this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0&feature=related
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PA–
Many or most of them are actually working to transform the entire world into a Euro socialist and decisions by transnational consensus land gone global, using American power and influence and their influence within America particularly thought their control of the mass media, towards those ends.
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1) What Mike said about Glegg’s comments was excellent. Glegg just made the mistake of being too smart in public.
[editor: no he didn’t. clegg is a typcial nation-loathing lefty. there’s no evidence the british people are “stuck in the past” or acting triumphantly about a 60 year old war victory. if anything, the evidence is all in the other direction — the brits have lost a sense of natiional pride and are swooning under the swaddle of socialist cradle to grave policies and 3rd world invasion.]
2) What’s wrong with voting UKIP or the BNP?
3) I thought it was the BRITISH that started large scale bombing of civilian targets, not the NAZIS.
4) Aspirant made very cogent remarks about Liberals and Conservatives.
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Not the Brits, just the English.
National pride is laudable if you are Scottish, Welsh or Irish. If you are English you must never speak of pride and anything short of self-flagellation with the St. George’s Cross is fascism.
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England, the once and former “Great Britain” is the obvious road map for the USA.
Their (and our) “sick compulsion” is the outward expression of a feminized culture and society.
“Honey, does this make me look fat?”
“I’m so faaaat – waaah – how can you wuv me!”
While inwardly, the cow smugly munches bon-bons, fully convinced they’ll be young and glorious (empowered) forever.
I really must start a blog…
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Omega Dork–
Listen dork, you omega, that’s rubbish. Here’s what Mike said above that you find so intelligent:
This is contemptable plop, and demoralizing for Brits as well. 4 is of course intended to put people off with this focus on current problems crap. Sure that’s always a good idea but being proud of Britain’s past hardly precludes that. Rather what he’s really alluding to is the lefty intonation that Britain during it’s Empire greatness period was wicked for ruling others, however modernizing that usually was for those societies. And that defeating the Nazis as the endstone of that period shouldn’t be proud making either. And definitely not make Brits think in that respect they have one over the Germans.
Muddle headed leftists aren’t fit to read this blog. You’ll be likely to make game work for yourself in an effective way anyway. Because game is ultimately about male dominance, packaged in playful or cleaver modern ways. And cultural Marxism inspired lefties hate the dominance of any of the historically winning groups, whatever good they and that brought, as their fundamental value.
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Omega Dork–
Well you’re wrong. The British did do soon do it on a wider scale than the Nazis were ABLE too, since they were deficient in heavy strategic bombers, concentrating instead on ground support light dive bombers.
Bombing of civilians in cites was started by the Nazis by bombing London. I think London was their first target.
btw, I completely basic strategic bombing of the allies in WWII, under the circumstances of that war and what was at stake. Not every decision. The Brit fire bombing of Dresden late in the war seems hard to justfy.
Not so the American fire bombing of Tokyo and Yokohama, or the nuclear bombs (each less devestating than a night of firebombing of Tokyo) dropped on Nagasaki and Heroshima.
If Truman hadn’t done that and we’d lost a million or half a million or a quarter of a million more American soldiers in securing the complete surrender of the home islands of Japan, given their “fight unto the death of each and every one of us” pinning it extreme ideology and indoctrination, he would have been impeached. And should have been.
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National pride is laudable if you are Scottish, Welsh or Irish.
Only contra the Enlish. yay.
Neither Scotts, Welsh nor Irish are allowed to have pride when 3rd wrld immigrants come into picture.
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Please limit your commentary to gender issues. This is like a doctor trying to give legal advice.
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firepower: I really must start a blog…
more power to you in that endeavor…
especially if you’ll be spending less time on this one
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@Why play the frame game of your masters?
The National Enquirer is the finest news publication this nation has to offer. Where else were we going to learn of Breck Girl’s dalliances with a lantern-jawed journo behind the back of the terminal cancer-stricken mother of his children? NBC? ABC? The New York Beta Times? Surely. As for BatBoy, he’s doing rather well for himself these days. He’s a United States congressman representing the 30th district of California. Goes by the assumed name of Henry Waxman. 😉
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Roissy, don’t listen to the haters. Not all your posts need to be about game. Besides, these type of topics are intertwined with game anyways.
I feel bad for Britain if this Clegg guy gets elected. So the British should feel more guiltly than the Germans who massacred 5 million jews? That’s a disturbing man.
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Those of you who think the Russians had anything to do with actually winning World War II are somewhat ignorant of history. Not that I blame you, the most important parts of WWII history were classified for 50-60 years while the unimportant parts were being taught in schools.
The geeks won WWII, period end of story. Code-breaker geeks, aeronautical geeks, radar geeks, and nuclear physics geeks. We knew where all the U-boats were, we knew where the Jap fleet was at Midway, and we tricked them. The alpha warriors and politicians had to keeps this secret post-war, when you think about it.
But the truth will out, and the geek shall inherit the Earth. I hope all you alpha assholes have gotten the memo by now: Do not fuck with the geeks. We have the internet now, and can prank you in ways you haven’t imagined.
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PA :
Neither Scotts, Welsh nor Irish are allowed to have pride when 3rd wrld immigrants come into picture.
Third-world immigrants like PA? Who come here and say :
““High demend rispikt frovm ze blecks bikos high im vhite!!”?
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Joe–
Poles have good looking women, on average. And are a smart lot, Jewish jokes especially in yesteryear notwithstanding. And get along with the American productive majority just great. Unlike some persuasions.
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When it comes to politics Roissy, you, and a number of the other commentators here, seem to lose all of your senses. Of course, this comes as no surprise from you Roissy. All of your posts about politics are shot through with the kind of highly ideological narrow-mindedness that I’ve come to expect from a bored and frustrated, over-educated ex-DC cubicle-monkey.
Tons of posts ago, Mike summarized Clegg’s comments more accurately than the rest of you boneheads. The British national psyche is indeed haunted by a preoccupation with our former imperial grandeur, and it’s preventing us from coming to terms with, and taking up, our proper place in the modern world. This is a perfectly sensible view to take, and it certainly doesn’t equate to thinking that the “British should feel more guiltly [sic] than the Germans who massacred 5 million jews” as some previous moron on here suggested. Clegg said, and I quote, that the British cross to bear was more “insidious” than Germany’s history of Nazism, i.e. that it is potentially more harmful to our present condition (the implication seems to be that Germany has been relatively successful at coming to terms with its Nazi past than Britain has at negotiating its post-imperial role).
Roissy, if you will insist on commenting on political matters of which you have no real knowledge (you’re a blogger, so that’s exactly what I expect you’ll do), then perhaps you should cast your eye wider than articles that appear in the Daily Hate. Raise your fucking game.
[editor: lemme guess. you’re a lib.]
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Joe–
Poland was never third world either. In any sense of the term.
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typo above, should have read:
the implication seems to be that Germany has been *MORE* successful at coming to terms with its Nazi past than Britain has at negotiating its post-imperial role
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MyLeftFoot–
Any Brit with a university education or otherwise won a poistion in Britain’s middling classes (I avoid middle class cause in Britain that really means upper middle class) that doesn’t vote for the Tories in this election should be …. well ridiculed at least.
Of course the Guardian saluting and closely consulting Brit uni grad lefties wouldn’t dream of voting Torry, so with the blunder that is Gordon Brown, this time they may have to vote Lib.Dem.
Just what is your excuse btw for your Labour policies* maintaining your undeserving chav ‘Shameless’ class for lifetimes on the dole?
What”s a lefty doing reading a blog that preaches rediscovering and unleashing innate male leadership and dominance over girls, and teaches game techniques for quickly seducing them into submission??? While also enumerating and illustrating the endless ways in which feminism has been a disaster for western civilization, particularly the Anglosphere part of it where it’s strongest?
——————
*Which it’s true lefties have made it scary for even Tories to too much mess with or talk about doing anyway.
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MyLeftFoot,
You have a point. However, British society and British culture used to be something admirable. It seems like the country has lost its way.
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Britain used to be great, now its just Airstrip One. That makes my heart cry.
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Doug1:
I am indeed a Brit with a university education, but I wouldn’t dream of voting Tory. That’s because I’m from a working class background (though I’ve admittedly been catapulted into the middle classes by dint of my education) and I retain enough knowledge of where I’m from to know that a bunch of ex-Eton toffs aren’t interested in advancing the interests of people like me.
There are no excuses for policies which, though well-intentioned, have created a culture of dependency on benefits handed out by the state. I don’t know what the answer to that is. But I have, in the past, spent time working with people in very desperate situations (the likes of which George Osborne and David Cameron will never have seen or understood), and in my experience, a great many of them are *not* the lazy, work-shy scroungers that the Daily Hate would have you believe. Does this kind of compassion make me an adherent of the slave morality of the left-liberal intelligentsia? Sure, guilty as charged. But it comes from real-life experience, and not intellectual posturing.
Oh, and I read this blog because it’s interestingly provocative. Most of what Roissy has to say about life, society and culture is highly impressionistic and quite fallacious. There’s also a lot of amateurish and very poor philosophizing, which I find hard to stomach. But it’s entertaining all the same.
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“What’’s a lefty doing reading a blog that preaches rediscovering and unleashing innate male leadership and dominance over girls, and teaches game techniques for quickly seducing them into submission???”
I am a lefty (on many things, but a conservative on others) who relishes this blog and Roissy’s keen evopsych insights about gender relations.
I see two types of feminism, one which I support and one which I don’t. I support the ability of individuals to not be judged by their gender in having the ability to find whatever role in society supports their individual flourishing. Women should have the same opportunity to be CEO douchebags, lawyer douchebags, or what other kind of work-ambitious boner-killing douchebag they think will make them happy. What I don’t agree with is that after this process of individual self-sorting happens that we will see anything aproximating gender-neuitral choices – women’s choices will still largely hue to biologically determinined norms as will males. I believe gender outliers should be free to be gender outliers. There is nothing Roissy says on this that isn’t argued by Steven or Susan Pinker (both liberals and Canadian at that). Roissy would love Pinkers book “The Sexual Paradox” that drives home all of his pet evopsych stuff.
I see Roissy’s attack as being primarly on evolution and biology-blind “academic” feminism, not attacking some run-of-the-mill belief that everyone should be allowed to pursue life not hindered by gender sterotyping, even though those sterotypes are largely true.
“While also enumerating and illustrating the endless ways in which feminism has been a disaster for western civilization, particularly the Anglosphere part of it where it’s strongest?”
I think Roissy’s point when he isn’t being hyperbolic is that feminism has been a mixed bag and not an unalloyed good for all parties – that we had cultural norms that were built up on a biological underpinning (that was admittedly unfair to a subset of outlier women) and you can’t change one aspect without having unexpected changes of other aspects of society. To me “gaming” women isn’t deception (do you guys get that from Roissy? I don’t, he goes out of his way to clarifiy this). It is recognizing that women (generally, not all) respond psychosexually to different stimuli that don’t match what men do, or to what they say they want (or what academic feminists would have us believe).
I don’t see why my belief in, say, some run-of-the-mill liberal position like a minimum wage or single-payer health insurance need inform whatsoever my belief in strong role for genetic essentialism that expresses itself in areas like gender relations, IQ, athletic ability. It is only a narrow subset of academic liberals that have led you to believe these things are related. I don’t get what is so crazy about believing in just basic sort of milquetoasty liberalism where we have a mildly progressive income tax (but not one that really shuffles around the naturally hierarchy too much), some public goods funded by taxes, some attempt to give equal opportunity without any illusions about equal outcomes, etc. There is nothing terribly radical about this.
What strikes me most about the conservative voices on this board is just how much greivance there seems to be. Grievance and resentment. It isn’t the opinions I have so much problem with, it is the shrill resentments. I mean, in the grand scheme of world injustice, I don’t think many of these petty grievances really justify the tone. I mean, aren’t conservatives always the ones telling blacks to quit whining about how society is holding them down? I sympathize with that view whenb applied to race demagogues, but then when consevatives play the victim, it is hard to know if they are serious.
Is Glen Beck really doing anything different than demagogues like Al Sharpton didn’t do?
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I do believe that a persons political ideology, whether they be generally left or right, is partly genetically influenced. I read that Steven Pinker said that in the Blank Slate, correct me if I’m wrong.
It makes sense to me from my own experience. I am mostly a rightist, fiscal conservative/somewhat social libertarian. This has been embedded in my bones since I started thinking about politics, around 19-21 years old. I never really had to decide where I fell on the political spectrum, my parents and others never really influenced me. It just fell naturally into place. No matter how many liberal/progressive arguments I hear they just don’t take for me, and I try to have an open mind. It’s not happening, it’s in my DNA to be on the right.
I think that’s why political arguments get so heated and people get so angry. You look at the other person and you think they’re stupid, and vice versa. That’s because part of our ideology is in our blood, it’s a part of our nature.
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@Brian
“What strikes me most about the conservative voices on this board is just how much greivance there seems to be. Grievance and resentment”
Sure, because we remember a time when things simply ran better and we had pride as a nation rather than this false masochism you call progressivism. Cops used to have discretion and were reasonable. Women used to cook and were pleasant to be around. People used to be able to afford a family on one paycheck. Not since all of the progressive changes you people have wrought. Of course we’re pissed. Any sane person would be pissed. How would you feel if you were kicked out of your leading role in society by incomptents via government fiat and then told to foot the bill for your replacements to discriminate against you. Kiss my old white male ass. Move to Sweden douchebag.
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I sympathize with that view when applied to race demagogues, but then when conservatives play the victim, it is hard to know if they are serious.
Alright I’ll make a deal with you. Let’s completely get rid of affirmative action and all race based programs in our government, universities and everywhere else.
Or, let’s have it where whites can openly have white groups, only hire white people, or purposely recruit white men in college.
Then I’ll stop complaining.
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in the late 1800s and early 1900s central/germanic europe produced the likes of:
Carl friedrich gauss
willhelm weber
werner von siemens
Friedrich Nietzsche
Sigmund Freud
Albert Einstein
Max Planck
Werner Heisenberg
Max born
Fritz haber
Otto hahn/Lise meitner
Niels bohr
Edward teller
leo szilard
erwin schrodinger
gustav hertz
wolfgang pauli
The list goes on and on, this was the golden era of german science, development and academia. It’s no exxageration to say that germans had the the edge over EVERYONE in science, development and technology at that stage of history.
the list goes on and on. Half of these guys were around during world war 2 and fled to the states. Einstein famously fled after discovered there was bounty on his head as he was wanted for hanging as an enemy of the german state. Enrico fermi(concieved the nuclear reactor) fled fascist italy because he had a jewish wife and worked on the manhattan project.
By and large it was german defecters and refugees who won the second world, along with eventual bad leadership by the nazis. I don’t think Brits have felt “superior” to germans since 1800 or so, certainly not during or since the war. Nick clegg was talking absolute bullshit, the problem isn’t a sense of superiority about the war, the problem is that half the dumbfucks in this country don’t know shit about the war, any other history or anything at all. I’d sincerely like to know who he was aiming the comments at. Maybe he was just refferring to the people involved in politics, otherwise i think he has severely overestimated the intellet of many Brits today.
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the best thing about this is how Northeastern Europe will be knocked from its pedestal
Northeastern Europeans can´t hide their joy with all the problems in the piigs, the hated Southern Europeans who eat beter, sing better, drink better, fuck better women but are all going broke
Take that Nordics, by electing, or just voting in those Liberal Democrats clowns the UK is heading for a default before Portugal, Spain and Italy. Only Greece will default early. And maybe those Lib-Dems and Labour loons will manage to screw the UK earlier than Greece.
So the piigs ex-Greece will only default AFTER the UK and will be able to put the blame for their defaults on Anglo-saxon mismanagement and lack of fiscal discipline.
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Only nationalist groups, such as the BNP and Jobbik can save Europe from extinction. Racially and culturally.
If like everyone here, acknowledges biomechanics as god then I elaborate more on sex and its devices as a fact of life and insist race as another fact of life. Deemed by god (the one of bio-mechanics).
Sons of the West, every facet of our civilization gets its sustenance from the nectar of the White genes that flow through our veins. Without them, without us our civilization is doomed and all the past achievements of our fathers and their fathers and their father’s fathers will have been in vain.
Wake up White Man.
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Sharpcool,
Don’t you think there might be some fairness in giving a little extra help to the people whose ancestors were enslaved in this country?
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Poles created the original bombes which were responsible for helping to crack the Enigma codes on the u-boats. They fled the country and went to England to continue the codebreaking throughout the war at Bletchley Park. From thence came the computer upon which I type. Now you can have weddings there.
http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/
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Tried to fix it.
Sharpcool,
Don’t you think there might be some fairness in giving a little extra help to the people whose ancestors were enslaved in this country?
Laura, yes. I’ve thought about that before which is why I personally wouldn’t care if Black people and only Black people would be eligible for affirmative action. As long as they and their parents were born in America. It’s not perfect of course, but as long as it was reasonably done I wouldn’t care.
Everyone else though, no. There’s no reason anyone else should get AA, including women.
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Cannon’s Cannon, I have no idea where you got that I was liberally theistic from.
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@ Laura
“Don’t you think there might be some fairness in giving a little extra help to the people whose ancestors were enslaved in this country?”
The current state of affairs in the Black Community has been facilitated and indeed encouraged by the policies put in place by the government to “give a little extra help”.
Hand-ups became hand-outs and the “safety net” has become a safety hammock that politicians will not dare attempt to rectify. The government has replaced the father in the modern Black Family, effectively destroying the traditional paradigm of a stable two parent home.
Thomas Sowell addresses this and other issues in his book “Black Rednecks And White Liberals”. I highly recommend it.
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Right now, of course, men get affirmative action in college admissions in the name of diversity. Now we can speculate as to why it is, but women outperform men in school and a great many schools have a sliding scale for men’s admissions to achieve a better gender equity.
I am, of course, sympathetic to the idea that a traditional school setting might unwittingly discriminate against boys (since it punishes or misinterprets some varieties of rambunctiousness), but it is hardly fair to complain now and change the rules just because it always did that (that is, school always rewarded the people who could sit still and pay attention, this isn’t some feminist plot).
The population norms of gender show many more women in the safe middle and more men as outliers (the extreme smart and extreme stupid).
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sharpcool–
They’ve had two generations of it. Though yes they’re the only group that maybe should have been given it. I used to think so and wouldn’t feel so different now if it had been ended when Justice Sandra O’Conner was on the verge of doing so over the Michigan law case, noting that it shouldn’t go on too much longer.
Blacks haven’t been enslaved now for 150 years. They did face extensive and clear government backed segregation and partial discrimination (though not it wasn’t as impossible for some blacks to prosper there as is usually/always taught today in the leftist schools curriculum, but it was bad enough) in the South until 60 years ago (the end of segregation happened in stages, culminating in the 1964 civil rights act). Many eastern European Jews who make up the great bulk of the ancestry of the US Jewish population, from Russian and Poland and elsewhere , lived under a kind of segregation. No it wasn’t AS economically devastating mostly because they were such a cleaver people. The Irish who arrived in America in great numbers during and soon after the long running potato famine came from often completely uneducated and just as dirt poor circumstances as southern black share croppers in segregation times. The circumstances that many southern Italians were leaving behind were for them not so much better.
It’s high time people wrapped their heads around the strongly scientifically indicated fact (when one looks at the science and not leftist university scientiest in other sometimes similarly sounding fields leftist politicically spinning and bloviating on the subject, that blacks just aren’t nearly as smart (1 sd down) as whites of the Asians that come to America, largely for genetic reasons. Partly also cultural ones that the culture of “you owe us big) and blame whitely is not helping as the coal black and brilliant Thomas Sowell has been historically researching and writing about for decades, particularly impressively in his great trilogy on culture: “Migrations and Culture”; “Conquest and Culture”; and “Race and Culture”, all of which I’ve read and which have influenced me considerably.
Those are the primary reasons blacks lag so much. One is partly remediable; the other isn’t. Ashkenazi Jews also do better than whites on average or as a group in any society that allows some significant economic and other mobility, and in many where it was damn difficult one could argue, but obviously not impossible. Talent and ability, will on average, not in every individual genuinely hard luck case, find a way.
We need to stop turning our society so upside down with these cultural Marxist equalization schemes and instead be far more concerned that the truly talented can very usually rise and rise far. At least in two generations but hopefully one.
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laura,
we fought a bloody and costly war that practically tore the country in half to “free” them.
we have destroyed every single institution in this country as reparations for them, most recently now lending and housing. they have borrowed through the schools, the cities, the workplace, the university, the criminal justice system, the family, and the social safety net like sandworms leaving poisoned tunnels in their wake.
not fair enough yet?
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Brian
We don’t need to speculate why. Christina Hoff Summers has extensively documented why.
Because feminist teachers colleges and graduate teaching institutions, and feminist teachers thus sent forth for decades now, have extensively tilted the playing field of school education at every turn in favor of girls, while ignoring or sometimes even seeking to somewhat dumb down boys (e.g. in maths) in favor of girls. All the attention is paid to raising girls results in every single area relative to boys, and soto voce but most definitely if that’s to a point above boys, that’s just fine — or just great. It’s outrageous. Girls are favored in schools for the last couple of decades far more than boys were at any time since WWI, and in most places since way before that.
Any AA for boys happens at lower levels and is mainly done to please and attract girls — rather than scaring them away. It’s also minor.
The real point is that unlike with blacks there’s HARDLY been a focus in early school education in doing everything possible to help boys.
Single sex classes, which I attended from 5th through 12th grade, would help the school concentration and performance of both sexes probably, but particularly would with the hormonially raging boys (yes you damn well better believe a whole lot more so than among girls, on average and in fact in the vast majority of cases). Yet this is anathema to feminists. Who fear boys might again assert themselves.
Getting it Brian? (Probably not, or won’t admit it anyway.)
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I find it interesting roissy that you are open to all sorts of counterveiling social and cultural ideas and seem interested in examining norms, commonly held beliefs and percieved wisdom, but show utter lack of imagination when it comes to some other subjects. It is like reading two seperate blogs sometimes.
I guess it is easier to spend your time preserving a narrow picture of the world in your head and simply blocking all information that challenges it than to genuinely ask questions and be open minded. One must hold some dogmas I suppose – if only to free up time to think about other things.
Read a few books covering the whole conflict and you’re unlikely come to any conclusion other than the Russians had a bigger part in defeating the Nazis than the rest of the allies combined. It is an uncomfortable truth very few of us will allow ourselves to admit but the facts bear witness, the germans expended far more men and material fighting the Russians than anyone else. The forces we had trouble fighting in Europe and North Africa would have been insurmountable if the Germans weren’t commited elsewhere. Stay away from history at least, your stark viewpoints can only bend reality so far and history can be unyielding.
I’d never have thought a PUA centered blog would attract so many racists and nationalists though. This is not a rhetorical question, are you comfortable with / surprised by the amount of real nutters you attract?
[editor: this is the internet. a recipe swapping blog could attract nutters.]
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I too am English born and educated. Working class background and university educated. I don’t buy into the class envy though and I never did.
Never bought into the idea that a politician would advance my interests either, just wanted them to get the hell out of my way.
I can’t vote because I am a proud American citizen now, but I wouldn’t dream of voting anything but Tory.
They aren’t the party of Margaret Thatcher anymore, but they are the best of a bad lot.
If you are thinking of voting for Nick Clegg you do know he went to a private prep school and then on to Westminster School?
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Clegg is a moron. Because the National Myth of WWII is probably the only unifying aspect of Britain left.
Let’s review: the Myth (and much of the reality) has Britain alone (which it was) for over a year, against Hitler. Using naval power, the RAF, and constant new technology provided by eccentric boffins from Cambridge and Oxford to fend off Nazi attacks.
That is worth emulating. It allows British society, which needs massive improvements, to rally around a common myth, which does indeed have historical reality around it. Britain needs a new Spitfire. So build one. A new RN, so build one. A new unified purpose, so build one. A new Bletchley Park. So build one. People don’t cooperate just because, they need a story, a myth.
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wtf mark? he does not make an argument about the relative importance of the soviet vs UK & US war effort. He comments on an example if pious liberal “ye must repent” BS.
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thanks bubbles –
but I STILL have resources to do ALL that
plus put a pepper up your ass
i like showing off with
my multi-tasking
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“I find it interesting roissy that you are open to all sorts of counterveiling social and cultural ideas and seem interested in examining norms, commonly held beliefs and percieved wisdom, but show utter lack of imagination when it comes to some other subjects.”
Personal experience informs his radical theories. But I bet he’s neither British, nor a WWII vet, nor an owner of a big business, nor black.
I don’t pay much attention to Chomsky’s opinions of social progress either. Nor to Warren Buffet’s opinions on politics.
Nothing written here changes the fact that Russia defeated the Nazis. Our military aid was minor, the Russian winter is a bitch, lots of Russians died, but Russia won. Rule: never attempt a land invasion of Asia.
And Russia did not help Hitler, unless you think a flimsy non-aggression treaty is help.
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“Bombing Pearl Harbor and taking the Philippines were both a big mistake, maneuvered to happen by FDR.” – Doug1
OOOOOOoooooOOOooo!
A WW2 revionist who says the U.S. coverted attacked Japan? If so, then the U.S. should make reparations to Japan regardless of who won the war. It would be akin to a large bully who provokes a skinny kid into fighting back only for the bully to claim self-defence after he kicks the crap out of the skinny kid.
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“A WW2 revionist who says the U.S. coverted attacked Japan? If so, then the U.S. should make reparations to Japan regardless of who won the war.”
Nonsense. It’s more analogous to picking a fight with a bully at a time and place of your choosing.
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“It’s high time people wrapped their heads around the strongly scientifically indicated fact (when one looks at the science and not leftist university scientiest in other sometimes similarly sounding fields leftist politicically spinning and bloviating on the subject, that blacks just aren’t nearly as smart (1 sd down) as whites of the Asians that come to America, largely for genetic reasons.”
Please cite a recent, reputable study in a peer-reviewed academic journal which provides scientific evidence for this so-called “strongly scientifically indicated fact.”*
OTHERWISE FUCK THE FUCK OFF
* when you can’t find one I realize that you are, of course, going to claim this as evidence of the left-wing bias of modern science.
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There is no question that FDR was willing to antagonize the Japanese to the point that war became likely. But keep in mind, by the fall of 1941 the Japanese were deeply in bed with the Nazis, entirely by choice. They were also in a highly adversarial role vs the USSR, whom they had recently attacked. The Soviets were fighting for their lives in that time period and keeping them alive and in the war was absolutely vital if the allies were ever going to win. Indeed, at that time the Nazi wave still looked unstoppable to most observers and time was running out. Japan could have easily stabbed the USSR in the back at that point. They had decided not to but it is highly unlikely FDR knew that for sure.
So of course FDR saw a war with Japan as not a bad thing at all from the standpoint of stopping Hitler.
That does not mean he knew the Pearl Harbor attack per se was coming. But he saw no reason to avoid a head on confrontation with them sooner than later – somewhere in the Pacific.
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troolyscrumpsh said:
I don’t buy into the class envy though and I never did.
It’s not class envy to think that conservatives, especially these conservatives, have little interest in promoting the kind of social mobility which would allow more people from a background like mine to occupy positions in the established professions, those professions which are still dominated by the privately educated. Cameron’s conservatives are doing their best to appear as “one-nation tory” as they can, maybe even mildly progressive in comparison to New Labour which always had an authoritarian streak. I don’t believe for one minute that this appearance is anything but skin-deep.
mark said:
I’d never have thought a PUA centered blog would attract so many racists and nationalists though. This is not a rhetorical question, are you comfortable with / surprised by the amount of real nutters you attract?
I’m not surprised about this at all. I’ve been reading this blog for a while now. Some of the insights into human behavior seem plausible – there do seem to be a few trivial “laws of attraction” which, if studied, can help people (both men and women) to feel more confident in themselves and more comfortable with other people. But every now and again it seems that the broader aim here is to render the vagaries and eccentricities of human life into law-like generalizations (I believe Roissy is or was a quantoid or financial geek in real life – is this such a surprise?). This totalizing enterprise (which is a bit like that described by Hannah Arendt as the “rise of the social”) tries to force all behavior into artificial categories and prescriptions. There is, inherently, a great deal of falsification and intellectual violence involved in this – bending of the social world in order to fit one’s already present preconceptions (I wonder how many of the misogynists who post on here were simply wounded by particular women in the past, and suffer ultimately from nothing other than ressentiment).
Such a project will only succeed among those susceptible to this way of thinking about the world. It is no wonder that they also turn out to be intellectually stunted, inflexible and highly ideological dogmatists. The sorts of people who think that leftists MUST be mentally ill or traitorous, or that blacks MUST be inherently inferior to whites.
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My LeftFoot,
You are an idiot, if you deny that the scores of blacks in the US on almost all tests of cognitive ability average 1 standard deviation below the scores of whites. This is massively, massively proven over and over again. Blacks *as a statistical group* are not as smart.
The dispute is WHY they are not as smart– is it mostly because of their DNA, or poverty, or discrimination, or poor cultural attitudes towards education, etc. But THAT they are not as smart could only be denied by a self-blinded ignoramus.
If you want to argue that the discrepancy is entirely due to discrimination or environment and is not at all genetically based, you will find plenty of papers to support your position. But if you say that the discrepancy does not exist, it is hopeless to have any discussions with you.
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I did not deny the discrepancy. I denied that it arises, as Doug1 had claimed, “largely for genetic reasons.” There is no scientific proof that the discrepancy arises solely, or even predominantly, because of genetic differences between the races.
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gig said:
The North Sea is in terminal decline.
England, always a second-rate and only “winning” thanks to it’s big, incredibly violent, younger brother, America, is now facing a crisis in which now completely disfunctional America can’t bail it out.
Ha, ha.
Oh, and Social Security is now paying out more than is put in.
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So , in America we are “incredibly violent”. Why thank you.
My city used to have a formidable murder rate. When pressed about it, the Police Chief said, “Well, there are a lot of people here who need killing.”
Eventually a concealed carry law was passed and the crime rate took a large fall. The cops like the law. Everybody likes the law – except for criminal scumbags who are at last learning to fear their supposed prey.
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MyLeftFoot,
You’re focusing on the less important part of Doug1’s statement. There is a raging debate about how much of the discrepancy is genetic, and no consensus, but that really doesn’t matter for the discussions about social policy.
The fact is that however they got that way, Blacks in the USA are not as smart as Whites or Asians, and the social policies that are predicated on there being no such discrepancy are therefore failing in tragic and predictable ways.
For example, the notion that New York City must not be allowed to use intelligence as a component of their evaluation of prospective policemen or firefighters, because they cannot come up with a useful intelligence test on which the black applicants score as well as the white applicants, is insane because it denies the discrepancy itself, and results in a police force or a fire department that is not only dumber than it ought to be, but even dumber than it would be under a straight quota policy where the smartest black applicants and the smartest white applicants were taken in the desired numbers.
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“Nonsense. It’s more analogous to picking a fight with a bully at a time and place of your choosing.” – Joey Giraud
I don’t follow.
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Gil
I have a comment that is stuck in random “moderation” that explains this quite
clearly. In brief, the Japanese put themselves in the wrong in various important ways and so they deserved to be smashed without mercy.
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MyLeftFoot
In qualifying exams for Medical Doctors in the US, in order to get a decent percent of AA candidates to pass it is necessary to make the exam so easy that 100% of whites pass without any special effort.
Something to think about when your appendix is throbbing and about to explode..
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Rum said:
War On Terror
War On Drugs
War On Latin American Country X
War On Men
Yeah, I’m thinking you are.
Of course, you did have that “War On Communism”. You fought it by transferring the entire industrial infrastructure of America to Communist China.
God, you people are nuts.
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@Brian:
I am, of course, sympathetic to the idea that a traditional school setting might unwittingly discriminate against boys (since it punishes or misinterprets some varieties of rambunctiousness), but it is hardly fair to complain now and change the rules just because it always did that (that is, school always rewarded the people who could sit still and pay attention, this isn’t some feminist plot).
The population norms of gender show many more women in the safe middle and more men as outliers (the extreme smart and extreme stupid).
This is the result of bad policies becoming entrenched and the new people never know how the old system used to work. As long as we lie about the past and prevent real history from being taught, we can obfuscate and deny the negative evidence to the contrary. When I was in school, I graduated in 1979, our class valedictorian was a boy. IT was a boy every eyar before i was in school too. Boys used to be better in school than girls, but not anymore. Boys now see school as a rigged game and the main incentive for success, a family, being denied them through more of your ingenious policies, and they have opted out. Our society excludes the best, brightest, and most productive from competition or seriously handicaps them in favor of women mostly. You have grown up in such a world and think it is normal, when it is in fact abnormal.
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For all the Scottish apologists: the current and former British PMs are both Scottish. That is, the masters of the English, are Scottish.
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
Take that Bonny Prince Charlie!
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hahaha oh man it never ceases to amaze me how people who liken themselves “renegade” leaders can be so easily suckered by tabloid newspapers publishing thinly veiled smear articles light years distant for reality.
STICK WITH GAME. your understanding of politics (oxymoron is I’ve ever heard one) is so laughable it almost makes me question your intellectual capacity in PUArtistry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail
*tabloid*
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You commies have jumped the shark. I pray that soon you will all be swinging from lamp posts.
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It seems, friend Roissy, that it is time. Your work here is done.
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they tried to make me go to rehab
and (when i saw i’d been assigned a black doctor)
i said, NO! NO! NO!
// hypothetically
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“Why Boys Are Smarter, but
Girls Make Better Grades”
http://web.mac.com/wcbii/GenderDif/Welcome_files/WBASBGMBG%20Final%20Draft%20v3.pdf
In Intelligence, Gender and Race, La Griffe asks the question:
What arethe chances that a randomly selected woman is smarter than a randomly selected man? (La Griffe’s answer is 45%.)
Here, I raise a similar question:
What are the chances that a randomly selected woman is more academically motivated than a randomly selected man? I use the approach La Griffe uses in Intelligence.
I find p = 0.62.That is, a female will be more motivated than a male 62% of the time, which perhaps sheds some light on why my daughter was a better student than my son.
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Coursework is a major part of school grades and girls do it much more than boys.In GCSE 2009 boys overtook girls with the removal of coursework.It might be a statistical anomaly but it has raised questions over the weight given to coursework.
Also school grades puts a ceiling on the brightest students which are predominantly boys.
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In other news, voting Liberal Democrat will cause house prices to fall, make you fat, and give you cancer.
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Roissy,
I wonder how you would reconcile your disparagement towards beta men & nanny state politics with the overwhelming existence of both in highly successful Germany. I have lived & studied here a year and still can’t quite figure it out myself.
[editor: i should defend the happy slave?]
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Coursework is also about conformity and being obedient, which women do better than men. Men like to challenge and question too much and generally think school work is stupid unless they have a father who kicks their butts to do well. Given that everything significant has been or is invented by men, grades matter less in the real world. My wife has the driver’s manual memorized, but can’t drive very well for instance.
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i was about to say something similar, Coursework and GPAs(grade point averages) are stupid. Boys always peform better on high pressure end of semester exams. For instance during my time in the british school system i went from being a low achiever through high school to the highest achiever in that same school by age 18. I got one A*(in maths) AA in science and a string of mediocre grades at GSCE mainly due to hashed coursework components that were basically an insult to my intelligence. i was predicted 2Ds and 2Cs at A level. I ended up getting 5 As in my first year of college(AS level). 3 As in my second year.
I studied Maths, Further maths(self taught), physics, chemistry and economics at AS, dropping chemistry and economics after AS. I was not required to complete a single piece of coursework for these subjects. The hardest exams i took were the second year further maths and physics exams. Aced them. These are the hardest A level exams PERIOD. And big coincidence only me and 2-3 other BOYS got As in these subjects. No one would have guessed it, i was a typical clown/jock type through high school. I decided to pull my finger out at the last minute. But for every guy like me, theres another 2-3 boys that don’t manage to find the motivation. I didn’t attend a private or grammar school, but i think single sex schools are the way forward. Millions of boys are being let down big time.
everything nanka pointed out is 100 per cent correct iv’e seen it with my own eyes. Courseworks and GPAs are a waste of time, and almost always thwarted by plagiarism. when it comes to crunch time boys always beat out the girls. Also i noticed in my experience it was always GIRLS who broke down when the pressure was on, the number of girls iv’e seen feign illness, break down crying or run out of exams, miss exams altogether or claim some kind of illness or bad circumstances after recieving bad results is hilarious. They just can’t handle success or failure as well as the boys, they can’t “take it like a man”, and so instead the system has been changed to suit their needs at the expense of boys.
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theres no doubt in my mind that with the right right guidance and tuition i could have completed my engineering degree by age 18. That goes for a lot of other boys too.
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Realist, Tyrone and Namae Nanka,
It does seem to me like a lot of girls I know who are bright, but nothing exceptional are doing very well in school. Parallel to that I know many intelligent boys who don’t like school and are academic underachievers. To me this can only be explained by what accomplishments schools are rewarding or that for some reason boys aren’t working as hard. As Tyrone said, boys used to do better in school than girls. Tyrone’s right, though, in the real world the boy’s skills may end up being more valuable for many jobs.
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Rule: never attempt a land invasion of Asia.
Human History, so far, gives much more support to another view: “Asians, never attempt any sort of invasion of Europe”
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@gig
Rule: never attempt a land invasion of Asia.
Human History, so far, gives much more support to another view: “Asians, never attempt any sort of invasion of Europe”
What about the Mongols, Arabs, and the Turks? Hitler and Napoleon never made it to Asian Russia. All three of the above made it from Asia to Europe. The Arabs conquered big parts of Africa too.
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Mongols made raids, but never conquered permanent holdings much east of the Urals.
Arabs were repulsed at Tours by Charles Martrel and then from Spain by Ferdinand & Isabela.
Turks were repulsed from Transylvania by Vlad Tepes, at Vienna by Jan Sobieski and later ebbed away in the Balkans.
And much earlier on, there was the hapless series of Persian attempts to invade Greece.
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Tyrone, I will disregard the “Turner Diaries” fascism (yeah, all Canadians and Swedes should be hung as communists – who is the Nazi here, Roissy?) and just address your mistaken point – women have NEVER done worse than boys, on average, in school. There is tons of data on this in Susan Pinker’s book (and she is arguing FOR biological gender differences that explain differences in success and AGAINST kneejerk accusations of sexism and “glass ceiling” thinking). Men are statistically most likely to be outliers and women have a narrower standard deviation. The average population IQ for girls is a few points higher than boys, but this is because they have fewer extremes.
She argues vehemently against the idea that there is a glass ceiling holding women back but argues that broadly innate gender differences in ambition, life goals, single-minded work focus, etc. explain the alleged existence of a glass ceiling – that smart women impose it on themselves and that it is perfectly fitting that men who work their asses off even if they are no smarter than women should be in those high positions. The oppportunity is there, but women just tend to make different choices than men and the jobs they are absent from don’t allow those tradeoffs.
BTW, I graduated in 1988 and our valedictorian was a girl. She is now a radiologist, and a successful one (and a super hottie for her age, I might add). I had the second highest SAT score in my high school (scored the same as our valedictorian) and I am a cubicle hack in a white collar job that does require a lame graduate degree and pays ok, but is firmly pedestrian. I would rather spend my time lifting, kayaking, running, cycling and generally having fun than slaving away in some office forever for money that I don’t need. In my case, being intelligent has rightly not been sufficient to traditional career success and I have gotten what my lame dedication to a “career” deserves. In this case her ambition trumped our equal intelligence, but in general, the gender roles would be reversed in this dynamic.
My take on the whole feminist argument is this. You guys seem to think that women, simply because they have a vagina, should have certain roles closed to them. I think we should treat people as individuals and let them find whatever makes them flourish, but recognize that women will still tend to make different choices than men will and we shouldn’t have a society that puts pressure on the women who have no interest in working and college to fake the motions of a credential when all they really want to do is drop out of the workforce, get married, and have kids. We would probably end up with maybe 20% of women taking the “male” route and being workaholic boner-killing corporate shills, some 50% taking some hybrid route – working some, but sacrificing advancement and ambitions to do a disproportionate amount of traditional “woman” stuff, and 30% being full-on Stepford wives. In this way, individuals are free to flourish, but we don’t have some academic feminists setting up phoney expectations and agendas for a whole group of biologicall different people that aren”t largely innately driven to that life (a group I can sympathize with because, despite being male, I can’t comprehend why anyone would want to work 80 hours a week for any amount of money).
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@PA:
Mongols made raids, but never conquered permanent holdings much east of the Urals.
Moscow, Kiev, Novgorod were all taken by the Mongols and they established vassal states there. Last time I looked, they were west of the Urals.
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@ Brian:
good for you. Now go back to Huffpo.
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MyLeftFoot
Scads of such are cited in the genetics and human biological cultural evolution blog Gene Expression, which about everyone with an interest in the area knows about and reads sometimes. It was started in 2002 by two S. Asians, on a NY area post doc genetics researcher, one of hindu and the other of muslim backgrounds, both atheists and both brilliant. It became a bit of a blog collective, run by Razib. The biggest focus on race was in 2002 and 2003 when they were exploring this taboo area and what the facts were. It’s reviewed newer stuff since. I’ve been subscribed for years and read stuff interesting to me. Razib’s history/cultural evolution exploration/book reviews fascinate me in particular.
Since you obviously know so little about the work in this area, this once over lightly this summary by Jason Malloy writing at GNXP of some of the evidence occasioned by the firing (forced retirement of the dean of genetics research, James Watson over breaking the taboo over declaring with any large megaphone (not what he intended, a Brit reporter smelled a scandal over remarks he made offhand to her and as background, and ran with it) that Africans are in fact less intelligent that Westerners on average.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php
There are many references to peer reviewed studies in it.
I’ll quote one bit:
Note that these studies were done by liberals who did NOT WANT to find the results they did. They’re just honest. Unlike many others, who hide such things.
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Europe would have been made rat-shit by the Mongolians had Ogedei Khan not keeled over when he did.
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Europe would have been made rat-shit by the Mongolians had Ogedei Khan not keeled over when he did.
And if your gamma had balls she’d be grampa.
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gramma
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Gil–
A short lived conquest at best. Actually I think they would have had a hard time conquoring western Europe. Not enough grasslands for their style of horse intensive, multiple horses for every fighting man, and other herded and grass eating animals (for food) battle.
The steppe does extend in a sense, with interruptions, into Hungary and Poland. But not into Germany, Austria, Italy etc.
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Polymath–
Precisely.
And at enormous costs of all kinds. Much less effective coprs and other organizations, layered with human resources bureaucracy and unable to fire the black incompetents or difficult to deal with, requiring doublethink on racial differences up the yin yang. Schools polices perverted. The middle and upper middle ability students in public schools often not getting the tracking and emphasis on learning all they can in a challenged way so as to “leave no child behind”, meaning mostly no black or heavily Indo Central American one behind.
Race neutral would be great. We don’t remotely have that in America in any governmental or bigger or prominent corp or organization.
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“The average population IQ for girls is a few points higher than boys, but this is because they have fewer extremes.”
This makes no sense. 🙂
afaik it’s boys who should be ahead in overall IQ;
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/a_possible_explanation_for_the_flynn_effect/
Since girls mature faster, all IQ differences should be after boys achieve puberty; that’s when the maths gap opens up.
“I think we should treat people as individuals and let them find whatever makes them flourish,”
The problem is not treating men as individuals and let them flourish too.Feminists are most vocal group when it comes to boys only schools shouting discrimination.
Then they are the most vocal when it comes to trumpeting the achievements of girls at higher levels and their boosted school level performance.Allocating more resources to girl only programs and groups that help them in colleges.
As a result more girls are motivated than boys nowadays to go out and achieve educational success and exploring avenues of job success.
http://www.martynemko.com/articles/saving-our-young-men_id1557
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MyLeftFoot, Mark–
There is an overlap between gender realists and race realists or those who get the central concept of human biodiversity or HBD. The overlap is two things. Both draw heavily on insights from how evolution has shaped us as humans. And both have taken the red pill on the overarching theory and concepts of the cultural Marxism that underlies current leftism in the west and found the later FUNDAMENTALLY AND TOTALLY wrong. Just wrong to the core.
The basic concept of the insight about human biodiversity or HBD, is that it is the fundamental “design of nature” brought about by evolution, and turbocharged by the sexual mechanism of reproduction when that evolved that re-shuffles the available genes of each parent male and female at conception, that diversity of genetic variation be available, preserved and reshuffled WITHIN the species. Including the human species.
That is we are by fundamental design not the same, and as well not the same in signficant as well as trivial ways. Each of our genetically expressed traits are in fact at a moment in time distributed statistically in the manner of a bell curve, with the highest part of the curve being the most frequently occuring height of a particular population. The male and female heights are distributed along overlapping bell curves. yes diet affects how much of the genetic potential for greater height is realized, but genes do as well. Some women are taller than the average man and a few are taller than even tall men. But mostly it’s the other way around. That’s two overlapping bell curves.
We see overlapping bell curves in intelligence to do logical thinking and abstract problems as well, measured by IQ. That kind of intelligence isn’t the only kind but it’s highly correlated with other kinds (the concept of g). Overlapping bell curves by race. Sometimes the overlap is small and the curves are close together. (E.Asians vs Euros). Sometimes their quite widely seperated (Euros vs black Americans, and euros vs. aboriginals).
When populations are largely intrabreeding, and have historically interbred little with widely seperated geograhic races for a long period of time, there’s every reason to think that the two races will develop somewhat different genetic characteristics, even though some 70k or 100k years ago they may have all been one intrabreeding race in Africa. We do in fact see many different obviously genetically expressed morphological and disease resitance, and height and hair type, and other differences between different races. (Which by the way can be divided and subdivided into large general clumps like sub Saharan africans, or more finely into West and East Africans, and so on.)
It would be remarkable if mental traits which are certainly effected by genes as the brain is certainly expressed by genes during gestation and in infancy and childhood, did not also vary between the races, again on an overlapping bell curve basis of the frequency of variations which occur.
Genetic drift alone would certainly have had to cause differences unless all effects of such drift were always heavily selected against, and that never happens in sexually reproducing species. But also different environmental selective pressures, climate but also the type of gathered and hunted food sources and the skills involved, the nature of competition with other humans, and so on would create differences. Those might be difficult to predict which way they’d go, but that there’d be at least somewhat significant differences would a priori have to be almost certain.
If you understand much about evolution and sexual reproduction.
That’s just by way of backdrop, before we get to extensive evidence for actual racial differences, including mental ones.
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“The problem is not treating men as individuals and let them flourish too.Feminists are most vocal group when it comes to boys only schools shouting discrimination.”
I completely agree.
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I note above Roissy dismissed the apparent paradox of productive and happy Germans by not wanting to praise “happy slaves”. This is exactly the double standard of the right. I am prefectly willing to debate if happiness is the highest value and think there are many good consevative arguments on that score, but if some liberal refers to evangelical Christians as “happy slaves” or consuermism besotted materialists who slave 80 hours a week at a job to buy consumerist crap to keep up with their neightbors as “happy slaves”, they will be quickly denounced by the right as elitists and trying to force their values on other people, denying them their agency in the process. Someone please tell the the difference? I simply see no PC or stylistic difference between leftwing and rightwing populism – both claimn to speak for “the people” and against “tyranny” when in reality they just speak to narrow greivance and a desire to drag the people above them down to their level. And at their extremes, they think violence is perfectly acceptabel to restore or establish the status quo they think should exist. The Tea Party needs to talk to the Weather Underground and see how that worked out for them. Anyone who can’t see that Sweden isn’t the USSR (or couldn’t see that “US Imperialism” wasn’t Nazi Germany as the Weather Underground would have had it) is never going to convince anybody of anything.
And I note that in 1860, the US had 4 million actual slaves, which were worth more than all other property in the US combined. And the intellectual forebears of the angry conservative movement were the ones keeping them their. I want to hear a conservative who uses “slavery” as a metaphor for any mild reduction in personal liberty that might increase liberty in teh public sphere defend Nat Turner or Denmark Vesey? I rarely here any of these “hand the liberals from lamposts” guys lionize John Brown or Nat Turner, people who violently resisted actual, not metaphorical, slavery.
Once you define “slavery” as just any self-delusion that looks like happiness on the outside (and again, I am not criticizing the philosophical merit of this idea), you have pretty much made the idea meaningless. If a person is giving themselves over to “slavery” if they don’t mind paying taxes for single payer insurance instead of paying a premium for corporate insurance, I am not really sure what slavery is. As if the government is the only locus of power that can hinder our freedom.
You guys can’t seriously think there are only two choices? That Sweden and Germany, in their outcomes, may as well be North Korea? That is just plainly insane and if you want to win elections and influence a majority, you gotta argue without the hyperbole.
Now Roissy, of course, is a pure and genuine elitist (he can look down on the proles with the best of them) and I give him a pass because he is sort of an 1800’s-type Mencken conservative. When he ridicules the liberal elite, I distinctly get the feeling he isn’t against the idea of an elite perse, just against the wrong one being in charge. I can appreciate that as it doesn’t exempt the rabble-wannabe elite from scorn. But to couch this resistence to liberal tyranny in pseudo-populist terms is just absurd. Isn’t this resentment just sort of an unadmitted reverse elitism?
If there is anyone that represents a slave mentality, and it is epidemic in the US, it is some dumbass that lets a preacher or the Bible tell them what to think.
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@Doug1
Gil–
Europe would have been made rat-shit by the Mongolians had Ogedei Khan not keeled over when he did.
A short lived conquest at best. Actually I think they would have had a hard time conquoring western Europe. Not enough grasslands for their style of horse intensive, multiple horses for every fighting man, and other herded and grass eating animals (for food) battle.
The steppe does extend in a sense, with interruptions, into Hungary and Poland. But not into Germany, Austria, Italy etc.
I beg to differ. They controlled Muscovy for some 300 years or more. The biggest limitation was there weren’t enough Mongols. Probably the only limitation. They never numbered more than 150,000.
Mongols were very adaptive and once they took Persia and Mesopotamia, they possessed advanced siege equipment and a naval capability. Novgorod and the regions surrounding Kiev, are like the Loire Valley in terms of terrain and to this day have dense fir forests. The Dniepr left bank has a huge height advantage over the right bank and it was a well fortified city. The Russ fought like lions and were slaughtered to the last man all the same. They took China with its highly diverse terrain and China proper is also difficult terrain and mountainous. Moreover, they were the most advanced military and society in the world at that point.
Mongols made extensive use of foreign mercenaries for infantry and united under them all the other Turkomen tribes they rolled over, who were nearly as tough. The Mongols were incredibly well organized and intelligent and their military arts were essentially the Medieval equivalent of Blitzkrieg. I rank them the best army in history, Romans second and the Wehrmacht/Waffen SS third tied with the USA in modern times. Most Europeans would all have Mongol blood in them today if Ogedai Khan had not died, I believe.
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@Myleftfoot:
I’d never have thought a PUA centered blog would attract so many racists and nationalists though. This is not a rhetorical question, are you comfortable with / surprised by the amount of real nutters you attract?
I live in Europe and have for over 20 years. I think multi-culturalism will seem like a bad joke in about twenty years if you’re lucky. Europe no longer believes in itself and no one has children except the Muslims. I predict Bosnia as Europe’s future, I’m afraid. All this multi-cultural brain washing will fail in the EU, just as it did in Yugoslavia. You can’t erase 2500 years of history and culture, nationalism and tribalism. Ultimately you’re all still Britons, Saxons, Suebi, Romans, Lombards, Cheruscii, Ligurians, Pictii, etc. Eventually, Europe will realize what it has done and will panic and there will be a bloody race war, or you will have a second bout with fascism. Remember, Germany was the birth place of your creed too. Marxism could never have come into existence without Prussia as an example.
“Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society”- Aristotle
Unfortunately, that about sums Europe up, and it saddens me to see it. I’ve essentially grown up here and things are not as they were in terms of a vision for the future and a sense of pride in who they are and all they have done. They just want to lull themselves to sleep.
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Tyrone–
yeah definitely.
Interesting point.
Alexander and his boys were up there, as was Hannibal and his, esp. his numidian cavalry, later recruited by Rome.
As well the US for the last 20 years or so has had a weaponry advantage particularly in precision weapons that makes the gulf between us and any adversary maybe greater than any in history. The Romans would be our main competition. Though the gulf of their technical arsenal over the northern Euros, Gauls and Germans etc. was huge, that over some of their eastern enemies was less so. What hold us so much in check is our great aversion to seeing many of our own warriors die these days, or many of the enemy’s civilians. Hardly a Roman or esp. a Mongol concern w/respect to the latter, when it was strategically useful.
Well one whole hell of a lot of northern Asians ex Japan do today, today, don’t they? Genghis going back to maybe his grandfather or so (by means of Genghis’s cousins and second cousins leading Mongol war bands) has seen his lineage expand rather prolifically, hasn’t he?
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Brian–
That’s utterly absurd.
What lying far leftist historian did you get that misinformation from?
That would make the accumulated or future projected lifetime labor of the 27.5 million Americans in 1860 worth less than that of the slaves, which is beyond ridiculous.
although I can’t do a good calculation, in general the accumlated and productive labor of a population is reflected indirectly in the trading value of the real estate they own, as well as the housing and factory improvements, machinery, equipment and tools that they own.
What you say above is utterly absurd – except you’re right that there were about 4 million slaves then.
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Brian
Exactly. You’ve triangulated Roissy’s background view on that quite accurately I’m sure.
I’m of a mind w/Roissy on that.
I absolutely do not believe in equality. Either that it exists or that it should.
Except equality before the law and a reasonable degree, underline reasonable (not whatever the cost), of equality of opportunity. What I really care about is not that each individual inerrantly reach his full potential if he but takes the 8th chance available to him, but rather that the really talented don’t in vast numbers languish unused and unexpressed. If those in the 2nd decile from the bottom could have made it to the 3rd or fourth decile, ehhhh.
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“I live in Europe and have for over 20 years. I think multi-culturalism will seem like a bad joke in about twenty years if you’re lucky. Europe no longer believes in itself and no one has children except the Muslims.”
Not all liberals are multiculturalists. I, for one, am not. I am a strong and committed western enlightenment secularist and I think Europe is committing suicide by bending over backward to accomodate religion in the name of tolerance. This isn’t a left-right issue – I mean there is a narrow subset of academic liberals who haven’t looked outside since 1983, I guess. We do this here with Christians (go to South Carolina and note how religious nonsense gets a free pass in cultural decisions). For me, the first creed of a liberal is western enlightenment values trump cultural baggage that doesn’t hew to them (be it Islamic, Christian, or whatever).
The US is the best example of how to intergrate immigrants – don’t go kicking their ass or anything because they are culturally different, but don’t make it terribly easy for them to stay culturally different. Then they can sort of blend in and maybe leave some mild milquetoasty mark on the dominant culture (mmm I love good humus…pass me a Guinness) while inexorably giving way to the American norms of keeping religion to your damn self and recognizing the freedom-increasing superiority of Western ways. I don’t find anything remotely illiberal about getting angry with people who come to America (or Europe) and then expect us to change our way of life to accomdate them (as if we would be so accomodated in their home country). Sure, they can do what they like in their private homes, but the public sphere won’t give them special rights – it is bad enough that our home grown religious nuts expect special rights.
You need to meet some actual liberals and you will see that we aren’t all like the sterotype that Glenn Beck serves up every night. Some of us believe in limiting immigration and standing up for Western values for liberal reasons – because the teeming poor of the third world are largely conservative, tribal, intolerant, and hide-bound to superstition and barbarism that isn’t consistent with secular American values. Theo Van Gogh in Holland, of course, attacked multiculturalism and excessive deference to muslims from the left.
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Not all liberals are multiculturalists. I, for one, am not.
Brian, are you for an immediate hal to to all non-European immigration to your continent and a humanely implemented program of repatriating existing immigrants and many of their descendants?
if not, you are defacto a multiculturalist.
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Doug I love your argumentative tact here. Pyschologists call it “projection”. Since conservatives start with an ideology and then color the facts to suit it, you assume liberals always do the same. So if a historian reports a fact that might lead to liberal beliefs, he is dismissed as a priori liberal when the assumption could easily be that he wasn’t anything until he learned the fact. SO would you be happy with any conservative historian being tarred as having had the agenda first and their facts second? All this bias accusation surely cuts both ways? You are engaging in exactly the sort of thinking that is rightly criticized when some liberal says “This study demonstrating innate biological gender differences isn’t true – must be some sort of far right conservative sexist biologist!!”? So why do you get riled when liberals do this, but then do it yourself? This is why any good conservative critique of liberalism seldom rings true for me – because they let their ideology pre-decide what must and mustn’t be true, just like the liberal ideologues they criticize. Since a recognition of the absolute primacy of slavery as an economic institution might give some creedence to liberal views and PC victim-monering, it just CAN’T be true to a conservative and any finding to that end must be an example of pre-existing bias. No different than for liberals where recognition of the biological basis of human behavior might give pause to utopian equality bringing social schemes just CAN’T be true. How does it feel to be engaged in the exact same sort of half-thinking and “my mind is already made up” ideology as the peopel you despise?
Here is the fact:
By 1860 there were approximately 4,000,000 slaves in the United States, the second largest slave society–slave population–in the world. The only one larger was Russian serfdom. Brazil was close. But in 1860 American slaves, as a financial asset, were worth approximately three and a half billion dollars–that’s just as property. Three and a half billion dollars was the net worth, roughly, of slaves in 1860. In today’s dollars that would be approximately seventy-five billion dollars. In 1860 slaves as an asset were worth more than all of America’s manufacturing, all of the railroads, all of the productive capacity of the United States put together. Slaves were the single largest, by far, financial asset of property in the entire American economy. The only thing worth more than the slaves in the American economy of the 1850s was the land itself, and no one can really put a dollar value on all of the land of North America.
http://oyc.yale.edu/history/civil-war-and-reconstruction/content/transcripts/transcript-2-southern-society-slavery-king-cotton
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Brian, something is only worth what it can be sold for. If ALL the slaves would have been put on the market, their worth collectively would drop. Much as if you corner the silver market, your billion shares of silver are not “worth” 1 share times a billion. They are worth whatever you can sell them for. Selling them causes a crash in the price of silver.
That, and what Doug said.
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Doug,
It is pretty clear the problems blacks have stem from slavery and the sad part is there is not a damn thing that can fairly be done to change the situation. Some people just got screwed and that is just the end of the story – the legal barriers are now gone and the rest is up to them – some can get beyond it and others can’t. 4 million people with absolutely no wealth, no education, no family structure, no ability to earn any sort of income and comprising nearly the entirety of race were let loose one day in 1865. You honestly think 150 years is going to be enough to bring blacks to parity as a group? That is insane. Let’s take the state of West Virginia and strip them of all their wealth, all their education, and all their cultural institutions and turn them loose on the country and I guarantee their descendants would lag horribly behind the rest of American in 150 years and they are all white.
The important point here is that one can believe the above narrative and still strongly disagree with such liberal schemes as Affirmative Action, Reparations (a scheme which black liberal Henry Louis Gates argues against in the NYT today, saying we would have to hold the African countries who sold them equally liable), or any sort of sympathy for criminals or other assorted and felonious dirtbags. Some things are just a damn tragedy and all you can do is nut up individually and get past it, even though we know most won’t, because even if excuses are valid for the group, they necessarily aren’t valid for any one individual and won’t get you anywhere besides.
I think conservatives often want to minimize the screwing (or bracket it somehow and not recognize the magnitude) because they don’t like to give people excuses for being shitbags. You can have it both ways – you can recognize the hopeless magnitude of the screwing on a group level but still hold individuals responsible for their behavior.
All but a statistically insignificant number of blacks you see today had an ancestor 150 years ago who was an uneducated slave with no wealth or any prospects. Nearly every single one of them. I don’t think anyone needs to believe in liberal utopian equality schemes for redress to recognize the tragedy of this in what used to be quite compatible with conservatism – marveling at the gross injustice of the world without thinking we can or should do much about it. I think all that is required is that we keep our contempt bracketed as we avoid these neighborhoods and go about our lives.
You don’t have to disagree with a fact just because it might make is harder to hold the larger ideology you cherish. Either figure out how to assimilate it (as liberals and feminists are going to have to do with evo-psych stuff) or maybe it is time to jettison the ideology.
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Or to put it another way, what is the collective real estate inventory “worth”?
Clearly the mortgages were not worth their stated value. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and a collection of somethings is worth less than individual somethings added up. Because as soon as you have a run on any market, the worth drops.
Collectively, real estate is not “worth” a figure that can be measured by adding up the individual prices of all real estate.
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Brian
It’s not clear that’s the case at all. I doubt a single commentor on this board would agree with you. The kracken might have, but thankfully he no longer posts here.
I became disinterested in reading the rest of you comment after you posted that, because it made you sound too stupid to bother with.
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xsplat:
That there is some clever sophistry and would destroy the utility of most economic indicators if you applied it evenly. GDP, Housing prices, etc. suddenly mean nothing if we say “Yeah, this is the worth of our goods and services, but what if we suddenly sold everything at once?” Wouldn’t that same fact be true about other property goods, the ones we are comparing slaves as property to? So we can make no meaningful comparisons of the value of certain kinds of property just because in theory someone could have flooded the market and reduced their worth to zero?
So by your reckoning, the value of slaves was nothing? Well, I guess the value of real estate in the country it nothing, since it could all be theoretically sold at once and there wouldn’t be enough buyers.
Why not just admit slavery was a monumentally important economic enterprise in the US and greatly built our nation’s wealth? You don’t have to be scared that it will destroy your conservative points of view on race issues, unless they depend on revisionist history.
You can have your cake and eat it too. For example, I am aware that not everyone can be tall, lean, and muscular like I am – some poor fucks are so cursed by biology that they easily succumb to our modern food environment and get fat and disgusting. But I somehow manage to keep my smug sense of moral superiority to fatties despite recognizing the facts of the world and I rage indignantly about their flaccid willpower and slovenly habits even while recognizing it isn’t exactly their fault.
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Brian—
You’ve already changed what you said above and what I quoted, which was that 4 million slaves in 1860 were worth more than “all other property in the US combined”. Of course the way you misphrased it at first reflects the intentionally misleading impression made upon you by the leftist source you read, assuming you personally weren’t intentionally trying to mislead us here. You now say:
Real estate, that enormous part of property, is entirely left out now isn’t it????
As well I can believe the aggregate slave wealth at 1860 market prices might have exceeded US manufacturing plants and railroads at the time, but hardly all productive capacity. Hardly all the farms and shop and workshops at market prices, or boats and ships and horses and farm animals, and houses sitting on land, or anything close. Manufacturing was still fairly limited in 1860 in the US though hugely greater by 1870, and the same with railroads, which in the north expanded like everything else from steel making to meat packing enormously during the war.
I would guess the fraction of slave to all other property or wealth in the US was less than 5% and maybe a lot less.
Lefty lying by vast exaggeration and careful omission, I reiterate.
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So you think you take a group of 4 million people, every one of them with no wealth, no education, an obliterated and purposefully stunted culture, turn them out in the world and 150 years later they will have perfect statistical parity in measures like wealth, income and education with people whose ancestors were not uniformly in those straits? And that doesn’t even mention the 100 years of official racism and neglect. If that is the case, why do you give a fuck about how you raise your kids if it has no outcome effects? You think population intelligence difference is the ONLY THING that could account for these differences of outcome? I mean, I am not averse to studying racial IQ difference or anything, but it is funny that that would be the only go-to explanation when the glaring one is so massive. I mean, I am all for studying genetics and IQ differences and letting the chips fall where they may if we can control for these environmental effects (recent studies show African immigrants outperform American blacks on intelligence tests and in school). I have defended Charles Murray’s book to liberal friends. However, it would seem plainly stupid to think the history of slavery and the mass economic circumstances at the time of emancipation wouldn’t be the first thing one would reckon is an issue. It doesn’t take great imagination to figure that in 1860 these 4 million people were all, every one of them, utterly broke and with no prospects and mostly reduced to pseudo slavery again. Why would things be massively better to the point of no difference from whites 150 years later?
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Brian, focus. Man, but you ramble. Hebephrenic.
Do you ACTUALLY think that is my position?
The value of one slave adjusted such that it is accurate and not over or underinflated by speculation would be equal to the value of five years worth of economic output of the slave. And yes, you could scale all of that up.
Now tell me that the value of slaves was worth more than the entire GDP. That’s impossible, considering their minority status.
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Brian–
It was an important economic enterprise.
It also probably more retarded than built our nation’s wealth.
Free labor is generally more productive including on farms.
What slavery does is simply transfer wealth by force and ideology from worker to owner to a greater degree than free paid labor does, or free farm labor selling farm products. Slavery did make the planter class, and esp. the old planter class of the older south (Virginia, Maryland, S. Carolina etc. who raised slaves and sold them at very high prices to new planters in Alabama and Mississippi etc.) rich.
Manufacturing, industry and widespread education was greatly retarded in the south by the institution of slavery. The rich weren’t forced to innovate much but rather could be slave owning rentiers. That effect carried over long after the civil war in fact.
This is the view of several noted economic historians whose names I’m not recollecting at the moment.
The motivations on the left are so suspect. They tend to be far less about finding the true forces involved and facts, but instead far more about vilifying oppressors and underscoring the victimhood of others, as per Marxism, cultural and traditional.
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Brian —
As to the first, in one quarter of the country only. As to the later, everyone else was neglected too. We weren’t into paternalism or equality of results then, thank god.
When has any freed people not been left to their own devices, except by the recent US or maybe post WWII heavily Marxist inspired leftist Euros (though they have way less AA than we do)?
Most immigrants arrived in this country with little more than the clothes on their backs and very little education. Many or most were illiterate esp. in certain waves of immigrants. Some of these immigrant groups rocketed upwards and some moved upwards more slowly. This had little to do with how much they came with or how much they were disliked or for a time widely discriminated against in work. That soon changed so far as work went according to group reputation and always individual reputation and performance. Jews rocketed up, Irish and Italians moved up but more slowly. And so on. Meanwhile yes, people did tend to like to live among their own ethnicity or closely related or compatible ones. On both sides mostly, though status climbers of did want to move among different ethnicity high status groups (yeah christian whites of one kind or another, and now sometimes/often jews).
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Brian–
As well Brian, backs simply aren’t nearly as smart on average as whites or most Asians for genetic reasons. The cultural side can be improved but there are also IQ feedbacks to it. As well culture is largely changed from the inside, or else by huge oppression.
Back out their avg. 20% white admixture and their all black IQ, fed, raised and educated in the white lead and majority society, America, is only an 80 IQ. Though of course there are some very smart black Americans, and more smart black Canadians, with their selective point system immigration policies. Overlapping bell curves.
The average in Africa with African disease loads, nutrition and black lead and organized societies is 70. We see the results in Haiti, with it’s 73 or so avg. IQ as well.
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“Lefty lying by vast exaggeration and careful omission, I reiterate.”
Why is it lefty lying? He even specifically addresses real estate (and he says “slaves as property” to set them apart from the theoretical worth of free labor which isn’t exactly thought of as property by anyone but marxists). Because you presume a political agenda behind it and it is that agenda you take exception to. You want to minimize slavery in order to make your agenda seem more fair, that is an agenda of self-reliance, intolerance for slackasses and vivtimhood, and to make sure there is no social engineering monkey-business to address the problem.
No different from libtard feminists immediately slamming evo-psych studies on gender as “conservative lying and exaggeration by ommission” not because they are that interested in the facts (nuts to those!), but because they are committed to a point-of-view that can’t tolerate them.
Slavery was a big fucking deal, the only unique thing about the South in 1860, and a massive economic undertaking and productive enterprise and the population ramifications for blacks iaren’t just going to disappear in a generation or two with or without intelligence differences.
Man, I would love to hear your life stories of repression and victimhood. When I drive through the black neighborhood of my city, I am amazed that these people can refrain from killing themselves in despair since life appears so bleak compared to my good fortune. When I go out to eat or to the store and see black people working these horribly meaningless jobs (as adults working jobs I had when I was 16) and showing up for work everyday, I can’t figure out how they haven’t put a gun in their mouth. But maybe you guys are convincing me that maybe I should be the one raging about the cruelty of fate stripping me of my rightful place in the scheme of the world. Am I the only white guy in the world who managed to get a job with affirmative action holding me down, with feminists devaluing my masculinity and managed to save a bunch of money despite paying some taxes?
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Brian–
The reason I make these points is not at all to put blacks down.
It’s because I’m sick of absurdly misdirected social policies up the yin yang predicated on the absurd notion that all people are born equally bright and that when they don’t end up doing as well by 12th grade that’s all the fault of the schools. As well I’m maybe even more sick of the notion that all races have on average equal abilities in everything including intelligence and academic ability and that if they don’t end up that way by end of high school again, it’s school inequity or discrimination, etc.
It’s not that I want to ease up on the pressure for schools excellence. The opposite. But I want tracking, and kicking out to “high security schools” of disciplinary problems even if that turns out to be 4:1 black kids, and so on. I want ability appropriate education that dirges by middle school somewhat and by high school quite a lot, to more trades orientation in the lower academic performing students, regardless of racial or ethnic composition.
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Brian–
Well you got that right. That is my agenda.
The way I presented the wealth importance of slaves was in no way trying to minimize them, it was fairly assessing them as a portion of the economy.
Another way of fairly comparing them would be the do a present value aggregate of the wages and other earnings of a free man in his lifetime, and aggregate that for the 27.5 million free Americans in 1860. That’s not treating them as owned by anyone but themselves.
After all the slave price was arrived at by some crude notion of the same idea, with some (maybe a lot) of built in profit for the buyer over time, if he didn’t die young or successfully run away.
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‘The motivations on the left are so suspect. They tend to be far less about finding the true forces involved and facts, but instead far more about vilifying oppressors and underscoring the victimhood of others, as per Marxism, cultural and traditional.”
I agree to a large extent (and I go round with liberals about this, especially “sociologists” who are being ever more marginalized by the sorts of research Roissy constantly cites), but doesn’t this typify the right as well? It seems to me the right just wants to ignore and minimize those very things, even when they are relevant and their investigations are captive to a pre-existing conservative bias. Of course, I grew up in the South, so I have a view of conservatives who criticized liberal bias on one hand while swearing their preacher knew more about biology than some “liberal biology professor”. A state where I had biology teachers in a public school tell me I was going to hell for believing in evolution.
Isn’t alot of what passes for modern conservatism just reverse victimization – we poor males/whites marginalized by feminism, affirmative action, etc. Isn’t the big thing on the right now anger at the “elites” for not respecting red state culture (never mind red states never have to make an attempt to “understand” anyone else) in a perfect mirror of the off-putting logic used by multiculturalists? And the whole “War on Christians” thing? Isn’t that just special rights pleading for an alleged victim class? Until the right marginalizes the religious right, there isn’t much they can say about pre-existing bias engaging arguments of fact.
And keep in mind I am not arguing that conservatives don’t have a point about some of these irritations, just that they don’t add up to much in the way of changed facts on the ground or too many real experiences of profound deprivation.
I can name tons of liberals who happily research and report things that irritate the “liberal establishment”. I would wager the authors of many of the studies Roissy cites are political liberals.
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Brian–
Blacks in America are on average some of the richest black people in the world,with the competitors being in other rich countries like Canada and Britain.
Try driving through black neighborhoods in black organized black Africa. Where is the average black person doing so much better than in America? Why? Why is East Asia rocketing upward economically but s.Saharan Africa isn’t?
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Brian–
You are right about the heavily political, “Republican first and foremost” right I agree and also among much of the religious right. But not among the academic right or really it’s mostly center or moderately liberal, but realist and iconoclastic. No.
Not e.g. from Pinker to EO Wilson, to most evo psych people, to most academic debunkers of leftist anthropologist sacred cows, and so on. Not the great majority of intellecuals on the right, as opposed to pure pundits.
Not among the realist right. Well that’s rather the of the point of the moniker. The intention to be non ideological is certainly there, in ways it really isn’t on the left, regardless of what is sometimes disingenuously claimed.
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@ Doug:
Alexander and his boys were up there, as was Hannibal and his, esp. his numidian cavalry, later recruited by Rome.
I have to agree there as well. I’m a big admirer of Alexander the Great, but his army wasn’t a machine in the sense these others were. By the end, he had about 80% mercenaries, with about 14000 Macedoniam Phalnax men remaining. However, the man who made his army the great army it was, was Phillip II, his father. Phillip doesn’t get anywhere near the credit or attention in history he should these days. He turned goat herders into the masters of Greece and ultimately Persia, the most powerful and wealthy nation in the world. The superpower in its day. What an adventure that must have been. More gold, women, exotic landscapes, and adventure than any man could hope for in ten lifetimes.
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“It’s because I’m sick of absurdly misdirected social policies up the yin yang predicated on the absurd notion that all people are born equally bright and that when they don’t end up doing as well by 12th grade that’s all the fault of the schools. As well I’m maybe even more sick of the notion that all races have on average equal abilities in everything including intelligence and academic ability and that if they don’t end up that way by end of high school again, it’s school inequity or discrimination, etc.”
I am not sure why the above belief is remotely inconsistent with recognizing the continuing enormity of slavery as haunting the lives of blacks in that it has bequeathed them a cycle of poverty that is hard to break. Of course people aren’t all born equally bright (the question of whether race is a predictor of the genetic aspect is more open, worth investigating) but to think that the fact that blacks are disproportionately poor and thus have all the pathologies associated with pathologies of any race has nothing to do with the shitty start they got seems myopic.
“if they don’t end up that way by end of high school again, it’s school inequity or discrimination, etc.”
This view isn’t very popular anymore. You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting black liberal who objects to the old civil rights canards forcefully despite being politically liberal, but strong on responsibility. John McWhorter to name one. Hell Obama to name another. It is practically a cottage industry now of black writers following the Cosby lead.
“But I want tracking, and kicking out to “high security schools” of disciplinary problems even if that turns out to be 4:1 black kids, and so on. I want ability appropriate education that dirges by middle school somewhat and by high school quite a lot, to more trades orientation in the lower academic performing students, regardless of racial or ethnic composition.”
I totally agree with this and it isn’t inconsistent with being a liberal. This is what alot of the allegedly socialist European countries do. Hell, I want kicking out of school completely. I want to hit both sides of the coin – make sure the damned opportunities are there, fund public goods with public money, but then hold people responsible if they squander the opportunity (I used to work in the public schools and worked at largely black schools). I think we should expel kids as a matter of course.
I am downright conservative about education. It is damn shame, but kids are pretty much already set before they even get to school. IQ is largely king and even if it has an environmental component, it is already set at that point. Of course, we don’t have perfect measuring ability, so I don’t want a person’s life opportunities completely decided by then, but the facts are that you can tell in a first grade class who is going to be worth a shit. And the tyranny of IQ just seems obvious. I had classes of black kids with seemingly identical environments – single working mom’s who would show up at PTA meetings – and some kids were bright and precocious and could pay attention, read, etc. and others just couldn’t. Those kids that can’t we need to be figuring out what productive they can do at an early age.
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“lacks in America are on average some of the richest black people in the world,with the competitors being in other rich countries like Canada and Britain.
Try driving through black neighborhoods in black organized black Africa. Where is the average black person doing so much better than in America? Why? Why is East Asia rocketing upward economically but s.Saharan Africa isn’t?”
God I know. That is what is amazing – that by world standards, no Americans have a damn thing to complain about. Yet we complain anyway.
Africa is actually growing economically (which might be more depressing considering what you see is what passes for fabulous growth). I think there are other viable explanations besides IQ (not that I discourage honest research in that area) – Africans do fine when they come here. I think it is a cultural issue – attending to fine triabl distinctions and loyalties doesn’t work so well in a modern world of nation states. You take places that were based on tiny tribal cultural institutions and drag them kicking into the world of the nation state, shit ain’t going to work to well. If you believe Roissy’s argument that feminism has fucked our culture by changing some norms too quickly for institutions to react, why is it a stretch to imagine African suffering the same thing – a change to one aspect of their culture that overwhelmed their meager tribal institutions. Same thing happened to Native Americans.
The city I live in has a large and thriving Sudanese population – uniformly employed, many owning thriving businesses, etc. I haven’t met one yet that didn’t already speak English.
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Brian–
Divorce 2.0 and VAWA are no joke if you'[re victimized by them. They’re heavily enforced laws, not growing up in a less than ideal neighborhood that you can overcome.
If you and your wife make about the same and divorce w/out kids after 3 years, no big deal other than lawyers fees which can and should be kept low in this case. If she walks after 11yrs and 2 kids aged 5 & 7 for no compelling reason other than that she’s cheated cause the romance had cooled, but kept that hidden from you, and she’s stayed at home when you wanted her to go back to work but she wouldn’t, oh yeah you’re treated hugely unfairly under feminist divorce 2.0 and it is legal oppression.
Sexual harassment law is sometimes exaggerated by MRA’s but then then the way in which companies react to the threat of those lawsuits in their policies also varies widely. As for the inability of betas to get laid, well I haven’t had that problem and say that Roissy’s preaching of game is the way forward there, not bitching and moaning. Though on the other hand, beware of sluts who’ve been long riding the alpha cock carousel if you do want to get serious with a girl, much less marry her w/prenup.
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Brian
The Africans who come here are mostly super selected from the tiny highest levels of their countries (African uni students here who stay) or highly selected and motivated tourist visa jumpers who start as cabbies and street vendors etc. Not remotely a representative bunch. It’s not a big wave relative to the African continent, unlike what came from Ireland
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Brian–
That’s not his argument at all. He thinks it will get worse and worse. Time to react isn’t the issue. Feminism is. Patriarchy works with strong families.
Personally I think feminism light is ok. Feminism driven by widely accepted Marxism (in diluted not TOO fast form, which is what reasonable leftism aka liberalism is in the US) isn’t. Patriarchy light and female solicitous is good. Female oppressing patriarchy is less good. Though feminists have vastly lied about and misrepresented the oppression of women compared to men in history and in other societies.
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Well that’s good. That’s e.g. not what one tends to hear about e.g. Somali communities in the US or Britain.
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See, I can agree with that – those are concrete policy based grievances and not vague ones – you can specify the exact grievance and put an end to it. I am exempt from this shit because, while I am married, I would never have married a woman that wanted kids or one that didn’t earn as much as me for those very reasons. If my wife quit working, so would I and we’d see who blinked first as the posessions were slowly sold and we started buying ramen noodles. I would win because women, as Chris Rock observes, can’t go backwards in lifestyle and men can’t go backward sexually.
In South Carolina, there is a law on the books where you can sue your wife’s lover for damages. Not sure how often it has been used.
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Doug & Brian,
Fascinating discussion. Slavery and the following years of discrimination were the biggest mistake this country ever made. I doubt too many people would disagree with that. We’re still paying for it and will for many years to come. I think there was very serious consideration given to the idea of resettling freed slaves in Africa, knowing the huge social upheaval of “4 million people with absolutely no wealth, no education, no family structure, no ability to earn any sort of income and comprising nearly the entirety of race were let loose one day in 1865.” I’m not saying whether that would have been right or wrong, but I think people back then were very aware of the problem that had been created.
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Sure, beware of the girl with a high cock count. But beware her more than a girl without a high cock count?
All things being equal, yes.
But all things are never equal. A girl with a low cock count may cause more trouble than a girl with a high cock count, if her reasons for a low cock count have to do with lack of motivation towards cock, and if you have a high libido and are mainly into the sexual aspect of relationship.
And a girl with a low cock count and an adequate libido can still be trouble.
The cock count is not the thing. Not the major thing. It’s one thing. It’s not the thing.
The underlying principles that cock count is shorthand for can be guaged directly. That works better than using the shorthand. Imagine how Warren Buffet values corporations. He doesn’t just look at the stock valuation. He looks at the fundamentals. Cock count is not a fundamental.
The fundamentals are:
* How ready is she to settle down
* What is your ability to keep her sexually satisfied, long term, and her you
* What is your ranking sexually amongst her previous lovers. Number 1 is best, of course. Top ten percent can be perfectly adequate. The higher the better chance for success, but lower also works, sometimes, for some people.
* How fun is time together.
* Do you tire of each others company, or is easy and pleasant to be together 24/7 month after month.
And so on.
Cock count is not the price of the stock.
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“Though feminists have vastly lied about and misrepresented the oppression of women compared to men in history and in other societies.”
I think what has happened is that a handful of statistical outliers who were prevented from flourishing owing to being genetic outliers had a legitimate grievance of being held back by gender but generalized their experience to all women, many of whom flourished just fine in the old regime since most men aren’t assholes (if they were, how could we have gotten this far? It just defies common sense). I believe so strongly in biological determinism that I think given perfect equality of opportunity with no pressure for women to do one or the other, most women would ultimately choose not to work, at least not full time, if they had the ability to drop out of it.
I think in the old regime women needed some legal protection from assholes (like a guy marrying a woman, her raising his kids and not being allowed to work, but then him ditching her), but in the new regime, women hold enough of the cards so they can choose to avoid this shit, so I don’t really get the point of alimony anymore. Child support, sure, with paternity testing.
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Brian–
Oh I agree. The more truth telling kind despite ideological harrassment, types of liberals I can and do respect. They’re usually moderate liberals thought and rarely more Marxist ones. More and more extensive or pure equality of opportunity types instead of equality of results true believers.
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“Well that’s good. That’s e.g. not what one tends to hear about e.g. Somali communities in the US or Britain.”
I think Somalis are cursed by Islam – the universal religious destroyer of the ability to get along with one’s neighbors. And cursed by British indifference masquerading as tolerance. The US is far, far superior to Europe in integrating minorities. The Europeans dress up their contempt in multicultural dress – making a virtue of what htey consider the necessity of ghettoizing their immigrants “No, we don’t despise you and want you away from us, we are actually giving you your own community freedom!” Yeah, right.
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xsplat–
I about half agree with you, to sum it up.
All the things you mentioned matter but they go more to what’s the likelihood that her rational choice will in the future be to leave you.
I do think that:
1) each time a girl falls deeply in love it tends to diminish her ability or tendency to fall as deeply in love in the future. She might describe her 4th serious love as her best but that’s an overall rational evaluation, and likely as well a rationalization/untruth. People dismiss “puppy love” as intense but meaningless. But especially if it was mutual and you were able to be fully together alot, and it went on for awhile it’s often the most intense love either will ever experience in their lives. Usually a first love won’t have all or most of these characteristics so the most intense may be the second or the “first real love.” Oh later ones may be better in some ways but not usually as intense. I think this is paticularly true for girls, and as well particularly matters much more for them, because the so much more need to feel swept up in love to feel bonded and loyal to a man. In time she might have stopped wanting to stop moving along so doesn’t but that doesn’t make the last the most intense love, not at all. Thus each time she falls in love her abilitity to pair bond as deeply is diminished.
2) Each time a woman rides the alpha cock carousel and has good or great casual sex with a new man but it ends quickly probably because the alpha moved on, she becomes less chemically/emotionally compelled to bond with a man due to having good or great sex with him.
The degree and speed to which these two factors operate varies with the woman.
Your factors including how you stack up emotionally/sexually are real big as well in determining that effective degree and speed with respect to whether they’ll matter much for you. But at some point they’ll matter with any man.
That’s the longer version of partly agreeing with you.
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yes but I like the way we did it before 1965 better than how we’re doing it now. Well maybe in between but closer to then. 1930s through 1965 style might be pretty good. Well mostly. Excepting blacks who needed to be treated like 1900 Irish.
What we did was fully accept immigrants once and to the extent that they’d proven themselves, and maybe most of us did as they were showing clear signs in that direction. That is we lambasted Irish for being drunken brawlers at first but that eventually changed into good solid workers, though the drunken jab (and prob. some reality, not like the old days, remains.) Jews were definitely distained and segregated to begin with, but that too changed.
Through it all they didn’t get to be the only ones complaining the other’s culture as nowadays instead each side too jabs and in the process assimilated but also the host culture absorbed influences as well, sometimes big ones.
Multi culti prohibits any criticism of immigrant or minority cultures by mainstream American culture or whites (except sometimes, gingerly in narrow supposed “worse victimization” areas such as female enfibrulation) but instead requires full uncritical embracing of all aspects, thus retarding assimiliation and to a degree cross fertilization that comes from some conflict and testing for robustness of outlooks etc.
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Doug, even granting that first loves are stronger (and I’m not), first loves and first cocks are not the same thing. First love can be the 10th cock.
And even granting that the woman bonds less (and I’m not granting that wholely – only all things being equal that’s more likely) that does not make for a unstable situation. Bonding strongly at first is not the primary glue for a relationship. A great percentage of divorces of my parents generation were first loves, I’d assume. My Mom was a virgin when she married, and she was still unable to hold on to a man who very much wanted to remain married.
My point is that even if you equate cock count to bonding ability (which is too simplistic), even that is not the main fundamental to use as your guage for future marital success.
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The “superior to Europe in integrating minorities” is a meaningless phrase. It’s a conservative-sounding neocon bromide.
Minorities, depending on their innate compatibility with their host culture, and their numbers, pass a point where they are no longer interested in becoming integrated, and start asserting their own home-culture norms over the people of the host nation.
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PA–
Agreed.
Particularly when not hiring them on the basis of their acting too weird and incompatible is made illegal.
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Brian–
I don’t think that growing poor versus affluent makes no difference. However I think/know that leftists vastly exaggerate the effect that in and of itself has on children, as opposed to often or usually correlated things. They have convinced most thinking and caring people on this score, including most moderates and quite a few on the right even, to a degree.
I think what matters vastly more is the intelligence and true priorities and values of BOTH of their parents, but especially their mothers (well their primary care givers). Better both for sure.
This is seen in poor immigrant families in NY City living right next to poor longer here and longer poor families. E.g. poor Chinese living right next to poor Puerto Ricans in similar housing stock (until the trashing of the hallways, elevators etc.) Attending the same schools as well. The Chinese kids in very large numbers go to college and often very good ones, do well there, and move into the upper middle class in large numbers. Puerto Ricans have been moving up but much more slowly. Same thing with Chinese and blacks e.g. in parts of Queens.
The “structural racism” explanation for continuing black lagging is crap.
Blaming it on whitey is one of the worst impediments to improvement in black cultural support for esp. black male school achievement and real job skills.
It’s time to remove all affirmative action and EEOC “disparate impact” quota tests for whether job discrimination exists, and to let black culture and true achievement adjust.
If they stay at the bottom on average, with bright blacks able to rise far, so be it. I’m fine with that. If they can rise significantly relative to others e.g. Central American latinos without AA either way, that’s ok too.
However if there’s going to be any AA, it should be taken away from blacks and AmerIndians last. Latinos are immigrants who weren’t dragged here, and most of their families are recent ones. It’s obscene to give the children of e.g. illegal immigrants discriminatory AA rights over the children of American families that have long been citizens. Women don’t deserve on iota of AA or diversity boost either. If anything, the reverse, for family stability.
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and start asserting their own home-culture norms over the people of the host nation.
Which is what PA does when he immigrates from a poor, non-Western country that at the time was hostile to the West, and says :
“High demend rispikt and givfts frovm ze blecks bikos high im looking vhite!!”
So, I partly agree with PA about what happens. However, he is confused as to which side of the equation he, as a lesser white, is on.
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Immigrants who arrive with a sense of entitlement will never assimilate. They have too much to lose.
What Europe does so spectacularly is appease this type of immigrant in the name of tolerance and diversity.
The immigrant has his appetite whetted and is emboldened and the natives are understandably restless, but cowed by the PC thought police.
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Joey, how does it feel to know that my people thrive physically, intellectually and spiritually through both adversity and boon, while yours lie dead like dogs unless nice Belgian activists come dig wells in the Savannah for you?
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I’m not a Neo-Nazi or anything, but it is clear that The West and even the entire world would currently be a much better place if the German National Socialists would’ve triumphed over the UK, USSR, and USA during WWII. Yes, I wish the Nazis would have won the war, and I especially wish they would’ve crushed the USSR — if they would’ve succeeded in that the UK would’ve no doubt called off the war on the western front.
Don’t front: you know I’m right. Look at the sickening amount of mass-degeneracy that has flowed out of the USA and UK in the decades following WWII. Everything that has happened since then is pretty much everything the Nazis were fighting against: anonymous cosmopolitan degeneracy, globalism/one-worldism, mass non-White immigration, race-mixing/anti-eugenics, feminism, Jewish domination and slow-motion ruination of banking and the mass-media, etc. If the Nazis would’ve won none of that likely wouldn’t have happened. The Nazis might’ve been socialists of sorts (technically they were ethno-socialists, i.e. socialism for ethnic Germans only), but they were very socially conservative and if they would have won they would at least currently be a cultural counterweight to the increasingly decadent and Judaized Anglosphere nations.
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From that article, Clegg said:”‘Watching Germany rise from its knees after the war and become a vastly more prosperous nation has not been easy on the febrile British psyche,’ Mr Clegg wrote, before attacking Britain’s approach to the war.”
That is why history often works out hilariously and HBD can explain many things.
The modern UK has become (mostly, but not completely) a degenerate basket-case in the decades following WWII and so has the USA (as we can witness all around us) — meanwhile Germany is currently more prosperous than ever before despite the fact that its best people were killed off in WWII and their entire country was almost completely leveled. You might even say that Germany is superior to the UK and the USA even though it was nearly bombed back in to the Neolithic during the war — yet Germany bounced back and is now stronger and better than ever as the USA and UK are in clear decline. – http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=Germanys_economic_engine
Ah, cruel fate!
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Home with my baby. Checking in for a moment …
Joe —
PA is my bro so far as I’m concerned, black would be divisionist.
Poles are way smart and their girls way pretty. What’s not to like?
Ever heard of Tycho Bryhe or Copernicus? Thought not, before you scurry to look up via google.
Poland had one of the largest empires in Europe in the 17th century. It was and is on a classic warpath between western and eastern Europe, the main one one fact. The US miltitary does all kinds of war games around the “Fulda gap” to this day.
Poland is the fastest growing sizeable economy in Eastern Europe and has barely suffered from the current global downturn, just slowing it’s growth temporarily.
Piss off racialist black man Joe.
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Brian:”If my wife quit working, so would I and we’d see who blinked first as the posessions were slowly sold and we started buying ramen noodles.”
Want to solve the unemployment problem in the USA? It’s simple…just have more women stay home to have kids and mind the home and have men work their jobs:
“What would you say, dear reader, if I told you that I’ve come up with a way to eliminate unemployment in the United States – yes, even in the face of the current economic mess? What if I explained that it would also improve the effective standard of living of many American families and decrease their income tax burdens? And that it would also increase our economic resilience and sustainability, and simultaneously cause a significant decrease in the amount of automobile traffic on America’s streets and highways? Would you be all for it?
No, dear reader, you wouldn’t. Permit me to explain why.
Right now, many two-income families with children in the United States are caught in a very curious economic bind. I haven’t been able to find statistics, but I personally know quite a few families for whom the cost of paid child care and one partner’s costs for commuting, business clothes, and all the other expenses of employment, approaches or even exceeds the take-home pay of one partner. Factor in the benefits of shifting to a lower tax bracket, and for a great many of these families, becoming a single-income family with one partner staying out of the paid work force would actually result in an increase in disposable income each month.” – http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2010/04/blindness-to-systems.html
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“never attempt a land invasion of Asia.” was a relevant joke, a reference to “Princess Bride.”
I thought Alphas were supposed to have a mastery of pop culture.
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PA, how does it feel to have to constantly fall back on loser talk about “your people” and “my people” because you’re an impotent nobody with no notable contributions to be proud of as an individual?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basking_in_reflected_glory
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lol, PA’s people “did so well” his family had to run away from the communist toilet paper lines to jump at the chance to be US proles. 😀
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I have to wonder what the pro immigration arguments are. I would think in order to let someone into any developed country they should have something to offer that country. If it’s because certain employers can get away with paying them really low wages that’s not a very good reason in my opinion.
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PA’s people “did so well” his family had to run away from the communist toilet paper lines to jump at the chance to be US proles.
There is a reason ‘Poles’ and ‘proles’ sound so similar.
‘Prole’ is a word created with Poles in mind.
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doug1,
Tycho Brahe was Danish, you dumbass.
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Proles is short for the Marxist term proletarian, dumbass.
See you obviously did cheat and go to wikipedia, dumbass.
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joe :
PA’s people “did so well” his family had to run away from the communist toilet paper lines to jump at the chance to be US proles.
That is sad. We should not make fun of his misfortune.
But this toilet paper issue could explain why PA has so much trouble with the reality that women poop, fart, and get diarrhea. He has a massive mental block about the realities of the female anatomy, and such experiences from his impoverished youth (seeing fat women who had not wiped their ass all winter) could be why.
At some point, I will cure him of this mental block about female bodies, through use of some video-based shock therapy.
Then, he will be allowed to detox my buttox.
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What has been completely left out of this discussion on blacks lagging behind is the lack of decent K-12 education anywhere in the US, but especially in the inner cities, as well family break down, which prevents decent socialization and emphasis on long term thinking. Without a having a father in the house, boys especially become difficult to control and tend towards criminal behavior.
The sad fact of our murder rate is the enormous proportion of it that is black on black. It completely skews the national rate. Whites commit a small fraction of the murders in the USA. This is the direct result of family breakdown. Most of those guys that you see in the ghetto doing those shit jobs can’t read or write because they didn’t go to school when they were supposed to. That is why they’re trapped in shit jobs. Go live in the ghetto and talk to some of these folks and watch them closely. I did for about three years. I’ve worked with them for longer. Why are so many devout Christian blacks in the middle class?
Fathers in the active in the family would solve most of the problems in the ghetto within two generations. Instead, you have a defacto matriarchy, that we created with the great society and idea that we can save the American Black by throwing money at the problem. Instead, we have created a sub element with a dependent and passive mentality, completely unemployable and unable to make their way in the real world.
The education and the family break down problems go hand in hand and are the result of the phalanx of left wing welfare and divorce policies that discourage fathers in the home and create an environment that encourages or values education and success in their children. It is fathers who will take the steps necessary in most cases to ensure their genetic legacy has the best chances of survival. That is what fathers do for a society and why patriarchy, in a nutshell, is the reason societies advance. All societies that have advanced are patriarchies. it is a pre-requisite to moving out of a neolithic level society.
As far as slavery being the reason American blacks lag behind, I call BS. Why is this not a problem in the West Indies and other Carribbean nations, also legacy of slavery and BTW a far crueler form of it. Only 20% of Africa’s slaves went to the US. Most went to the sugar cane plantations in the Carribbean to make rum and sugar for the European market. Carribbean slaves were generally worked to death in a few years. Look no further than Britain to see similar social decay among white people, who two generations ago, didn’t live or act in such a depraved way as today. Black America lags behind because it has been made into a defacto matriarchy and America’s working class is falling in right behind now.
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MyLeftFoot—
Has it sunk in yet? Black students from families in the top quartile of income (which some call the upper middle class and up) score WORSE on the SAT (very strongly IQ correlated) than while students from families from the bottom quartile. Oooooopss. There goes the endlessly heard Marxist/leftist theory that intelligence is increased by the socioeconomic standing of families in which a kid grows up. So too do the transracial adoption studies. Nope.
Yes leftists mostly outside the fields of psychometrics and genetics have been lying to you. Many of them know the likely rough shape of the truth but they lie still. Fewer but still many in the mainstream media know too but also lie. After all intellectuals don’t want to happen to them what happened to the man who’s pioneered molecular genetics, nobel prize winner James Watson. Or Larry Summers for talking about possibly lower female ability in mathematics not at the mean but at the extremes of ability – a narrower bell curve distribution among women than men on that trait which is indeed what the science shows, but about none in the field that have said the same in more specialized settings were willing to put their heads on the chopping block too to defended the once and then forced President of Harvard.
When it turns out I can show I’m right and that the great weight of the evidence, as opposed to leftist and quite literally leftist intimidated intellectuals particularly as presented in the press, does indicated that the black white difference in IQ or really most of all the underlying g (general intelligence factor, a factor analysis concept) which some IQ tests test for better than others, you stay shut and stay away? MmmKaay.
Steven Rose, a 72yo biochemist and neurobiology prof at Univ. of London was a founder of the “radical science movement” which has worked to politicize science in ways acceptable to their Marist viewpoints, and to make an assortment of areas of inquiry taboo to do and even more to publicize, including most definitely racial differences in IQ and their likely heavily genetic roots.
Continuing from the Jason Malloy article at GNXP occasioned by the James Watson sacking over speaking an inconvenient truth about the average intelligence level of Africans.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php
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MyLeftFoot—
No one needs to read this more than you left foot. From Charles Murray, writing in Commentary, on “The Inequality Taboo” (Commentary charges $ for the article but it was once freely available and has been copied on the web .)
An identified section of the long article is about black / white IQ differences, including the degree to which the evidences suggests they are heritable and genetic. It is replete with references to peer reviewed studies.
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PA, how does it feel to have to constantly fall back on loser talk about “your people” and “my people” because you’re an impotent nobody with no notable contributions to be proud of as an individual?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basking_in_reflected_glory
Loserdom is obvious even over the Internet.
I see that even doug1, who apparently is a Polish-American, is not defending PA’s demand to be respected by African Americans for everything he, as a Polish immigrant who never even saw a black person until 1990, has done for us.
Doug1 is changing the subject to talk about how Poland ‘isn’t that bad today, anymore, sort of’.
But he is not defending PA’s legendary whine :
“High demend rispikt and givfts frovm ze blecks bikos high im looking vhite!!”
Even Doug1 knows how loserish this is.
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So you did cheat and consult the wikipedia/the web.
How impressive.
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Joe,
I have heard people whose relatives came to the United States after the Civil War question why they should have any obligation to black people (affirmative action, welfare, etc.) because their ancestors never owned slaves. I can understand their frustration and yet when you become a US citizen you get the negatives as well as the positives. Slavery and its legacy of race inequality and discord is probably one the biggest challenges this country faces. What white Americans owe descendants of slaves at this point is highly debatable, of course.
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Laura,
But do African Americans owe respect and gratitude being demanded by a recent immigrant from Poland for ‘everything he has done for black people’, even if he never met a black person until he landed in America in 1990?
Even if, under some viewpoint, many white Americans have helped blacks over the years, why is this recent Polish immigrant with a foreign accent trying to take credit for this?
Defend him, if you feel so inclined.
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Laura–
Get over your guilt and learn some more history. Real history not leftist only distorted history that you were given your age no doubt taught.
There was nothing unusual in world history about the slavery. What was unique in human history was when the leading Euro and Euro offshoot nations began to outlaw and abolish it, despite it’s still being mega profitable in their societies or colonies, for the first time in world history.
Absolutely a world first, when Britain began by outlawing first the international slave trade in 1807, with the US following in 1808, and then slavery in it’s colonies such as Jamaica in 1833, with the US not following until 1863, in the midst of by far the costliest war in American lives in our history, the Civil War, fought over slavery without a doubt. (Despite the claims of some leftists and well southerns too for different reasons.)
African leading tribes were still practicing slave raiding and trading long after 1808 and in fact up to the later 1800s, which is a good large part of what lead Britain to colonize many of it’s West African colonies. Ghana and Nigeria etc. It was to stamp out slavery and slave trading there in large part by organizing other alternative profitable enterprises like palm oil plantations and ground nut (peanut) ones as well. This mixture of liberal reformism as part of the “white man’s burden” and making money by liberal free trading and enterprise was thoroughly part of high empire thinking, anathema to Marxists, but often quite effective actually in bringing real improvements. (Then you had the Belgians in the Congo … another story entirely.)
Euros virtually always just bought their slaves at or near the shore btw from dominant slave selling African tribes; their own slave raiding was rare. Too dangerous,both due to being too outnumbered and too exposed to African diseases. The notion that slave trading was done at Euro gunpoint is almost entirely false. The canons of most Euro forts on the slave coasts of West Africa pointed out towards the sea — and towards other Euro nations wanting to encroach on or take over that slave trading entrepot. That’s not to say that Euros never fired musket or canon on African tribal groups in west Africa during this slave trading several centuries. Sure they did. Mostly over disputes over getting paid on one side or the other, or delivering what was promised, etc. With exceptions it was overwhelmingly Africans who had slaves on offer as a trade good to Euros, not Euros who brought this practice to Africa. (Africans had been trading their own to Arabs across the Sahara for a millenia and to Romans at least some before that.)
Blacks were freed by whites in the Civil War. They are able to live and if they can rise in one of the most prosperous and also economically mobile countries on earth. A lot of the world’s ambitious would like to come her in their stead.
That’s plenty. Being treated like other American citizens I mean. No worse,but not with special privileges or equalizing discrimination either.
If blacks can’t reform their own culture enough, or if their genetics as one factor combined with a culture they like as it is more or less, doesn’t lead to blacks rising on average or as a group that much from here, well, what will be will be, should be our white attitude.
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Joe–
Nope.
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how does it feel to have to constantly fall back on loser talk about “your people” and “my people”
I don’t “contstantly fall back” on anything, idiot. I brought it up in response to joey’s buffoonish comment about my ethnic background.
demand to be respected by African Americans for everything
I never argued that whites are to be respected for being white. My argument has been as follows: the standard narrative of black grievance and white ‘racism’ is a lie, a blood libel in fact. It needs to be correctected by the perspective that American blacks owe a titanic debt of gratitude to the whites.
If I am speaking in collectives, despite my somewhat recent arrival in the US, it’s because the libelous narrative of black grievance treats us both in collective terms; you as its beneficiary, me as its defendant. And I say fuck all of that.
Even talked with a mother of a white teenager randomly shot by a black? there are thousands of such women in this country. Go say ‘sorry’ to them like I’m supposed to be “sorry” about slavery. Go lay flowers of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom’s grave, you grinning piece of shit.
lol, […] his family had to run away from the communist toilet paper lines
The grinning emoticon was a nice touch. But your quip is hollow, not that your bag-of-rocks brain, even on an articulate specimen like yourself, will appreciate its hollowness.
If Communism, an externally imposed economic disaster from which Eastern Europeans recovered in ten years, was something to be embarassed of, then you must be infinitely more shamed by pretty much all of Africa. Why, absent European benefactors, do your children lie about with swollen bellies and toothpick arms, flies exploring their mouths and eyelids? Isn’t 100,000 years on the savannah long enough to figure out how to survive there?
But forget Africa and let’s look at the United States. Have you listened to 911 tapes of black New Orelans women and their infants drowning in their attics? Where were thier “men”? Looting Walmart of everything but Country music CDs. Keep on grinning. It’s one of the few things you do well.
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See. You did use wikipedia/the web.
Cheater.
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A more serious response is in moderation. Meanwhile, go fuck yourself joey 🙂
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Tyrone, nice post!
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Tyrone, coming from a ghetto myself i know how important it is with the things you highlight.. I so believe in learned intelligence, myself, at the age of 10, i was going from the slum to an elite school, I could see the difference, nothing to do with stupider race or whatewer people fantasize up, its purely about learning,, coming from an alternative upbringing, i will never belong to the posh highclass people as those in my university , and i rather stay true to myself rather then strive to fit into a grid system that is too narrowminded for me…
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Joe, most men of Eastern Europe, that immigrates to US have a significantly higher success (proffesionally) then Americans,, try to solve that mystery…
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biktopia
Ok … remembering.
You’re the girl from the N. Orleans general area who has black and white cajun and other white ancestry, a bunch of different strains, who has become a professional. If do remember what with the person I’m thinking’s you, but I’ll leave that for you to re say or hint.
I’d gotten before that you were more white than black, and identified with each, but if push came to shove identified black.
But if that’s your pic that you’re using as your gravatar, you are the whitest looking black identifying girl I’ve seen. Main competition would be Jennifer Beals of Flashdance fame. Whose (small fractional) black ancestry wasn’t even widely publicly revealed until some good while after the movie had become iconic – so actually she seems quite different.
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Jennifer Beals father was black. That’s 50%. How is that “small fractional?”
This is her father here:
You just made that up because she didn’t fit your image of what a half-black chick should look like.
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PA,
I see you are retreating from your own whiny little racism, which is to be freed from the iron curtain by Americans (white and black), and then come to America in 1990, met a black person for the first time, and then utter :
“High demend rispikt and givfts frovm ze blecks bikos high im looking vhite!!”
Actually, since black people were among the US servicemen that freed you from communism (providing toilet paper), and the only sports and music you saw at first. You should be on your hands and knees thanking us for it.
So Poles should be thanking African Americans for their military service, and sports and music that relieved them from boredom.
I expect “givfts and rispikt” from you.
GayButtox,
Lol! Seriously? That would explain why PA has issues, and, as Obsidian says, can’t get laid.
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Doug, you may not be Polish but, if you strip away your viewpoints on family laws, the core remaining part of Doug is surprisingly feminist.
In fact, read between the lines of the non-family-laws part, and you believe in almost everything else that the feminists wanted wrought on society.
Some of the biggest bullet-points,
First, you say some really stupid things about babies, men, and families. Like this weekend when you wrote that men don’t really care about their young babies, or some months past when you wrote (I believe Roissy had the good senses to delete) that infanticide should be ok up to 1 year, or something. That’s some big talking, and as much stupid as big giving that you have 0 children; but the radical feminists would just love you to pieces, for giving their pro-abortion (and -infanticide, one can only presume), fathers-out-of-babys-lives agenda a big shove.
Second, you support women’s part time working as doctors, and their marriage to even richer men.
This is 2 kinds of bullshit feminist deadweight;
One, you implicitly support removing X amount of resources from a (probably male) doctor who would make a full time career in medicine, and giving those same X resources wasted on a woman who will have half that career, probably less.
Two, you also support taking that professional pay from potential bread winners and handing it as career-girl play moneys to a someone who won’t use a cent of it to support a family. Why training fulltime doctors who will support families, when we could instead train part-time chick doctos who can buy purses and shoes? Thanks, Feminist Doug!
Third, you want a polygamous society. Not just cheating here and there, but, actual polygamy. Not only is that a core
tenet of feminism — chase the big man, etc — but, it’s totally unsustainable in a peaceable productive society unless it’s restricted to a tiny fraction.
So, we can gather that you want to either,
Kill off a lot of the males so your ratios would be more friendly to polygamy — after reading your “kill all the lower class males, save the lower class females” screed it seems Mary Daly and you would be fast friends; or Have a society where only the top 1% times 1% are polygamous, in which case you’re just falling pray to the central planner’s fallacy (ie, assuming that the exclusively benefits will accrue to people who are Surprise! just like you).
You are clearly not a stupid person, so introspect somewhat and I believe you will see a surprisingly and troublingly feminist core Doug.
Finally, Doug, how do you squaring your belief in polygamy with your other statements about kids needing fathers? Would you just pick two or three kids by lottery to play father to, while leaving the rest to raising by the cabal of junior wives?
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If Communism, an externally imposed economic disaster from which Eastern Europeans
Wait, so misfortune was ‘externally imposed’ on the lower whites of Eastern Europe (who never explored the world the way all the Western European powers did).
But slavery was not ‘externally imposed’ on blacks? Riiiiiiiiight.
No wonder PA always comes across as a weakling. He likes to play the victim all the time (while trying to take credit for Anglosphere accomplishments because you have none of your own).
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@ anonymous:
But slavery was not ‘externally imposed’ on blacks? Riiiiiiiiight.
It was externally imposed individually in so far as one could be free on day and a slave the next, but as far as an institution, it was a major part of the African tribal culture and so pervasive that it was seen as a fact of life. The strong raided and enslaved the weak and had done so for millenia. It was Christianity that slowly changed Europe’s minds about slavery. Even serfdom was established as a more humane form of ensuring the land had peopel to work it. Prior to about 1000, most farms in Europe also were worked by gangs of agricultural slaves. It was Charlemagne who began ensuring that newly conquered areas would have serfdom rather than slavery.
Doug1 above is correct in stating that the European demand for slaves was met at slave markets operating out of coastal cities and that they seldom ventured into the interior because it was dangerous and full of disease. It was better to pay a little more and buy slaves at the markets set up for it. There was a huge network of slave trading cities in Africa, generally created to meet demand for the Arab markets. Europeans simply took advantage of a pre-existing industry and a culture that had no problems with slavery to establish slavery in the new world. So to answert your question, slavery was not really externally imposed on African society in the sense that Communism was imposed on places like Poland.
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@Joe
“Actually, since black people were among the US servicemen that freed you from communism (providing toilet paper), and the only sports and music you saw at first. You should be on your hands and knees thanking us for it.
So Poles should be thanking African Americans for their military service, and sports and music that relieved them from boredom. ”
Your an idiot, the US didn’t free Poland as there weren’t US troops in Poland. As for sports it was mostly invented by whites, for music the European countries all have longer superior traditions, and boredom? come on the problem in a communist system sure as hell isn’t boredom as any moment a person can find themselves as an enemy of the state for minor resistance.
Look I understand that as a black man much of the truth about the differences among the races hurts your racial pride, that your race will never be of any importance due to low average IQ and destined to remain poor and backward unless ruled by another race with high average IQ largely for genetic reasons not to mention being view as mostly ugly by other races but making shit up, throwing insults, pretending there are no differences, or trying to take credit for other races accomplishments like so many blacks love to do isn’t going to change reality.
All blacks can hope for is the benevolence of the high IQ races developing some kind of genetic altering technology and sharing it with them so they can be improved on a genetic level and have their future generations become consistently more attractive and intelligent.
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Anonymous
J
Who are you kidding. Jennifer Beals doesn’t fit anyone’s idea of what a half black chic would look like. When Flashdance came out it wasn’t widely known she was black and nobody suspected it. She looks Italian or other s. European instead.
Actually her father looks more like half or 60% black making her about 25-30%, but she doesn’t look that either. Genes do that sometimes. Roulette wheel. But it’s real unusual w/African pigmentation.
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Completely agree. Great post.
The fact is, those of you submerged in leftist and African studies highly distorted ideological “history”, when European (the Portugese) first sailed a little further, then a little further, down the coast of west Africa, they weren’t looking for slaves. They were looking for the el Dorodo of a route to the spices and silks and other riches of East Asia, that bypassed the huge, gigantic markups of the routes controlled by the Muslims. This trade was the big, concentrated, market (as opposed to vast land owning and taxing) route to riches at the time. Well as the last stage the Venetians extracted a huge markup as well on top, on the goods of the silk road and the Red Sea/Indian Ocean trade ending in Egypt where the Venicians picked them up for the last leg. This made Venice the richest city in Europe in the 1400s and early 1500s, at least other than Rome, which was collecting ecclesiastical taxes in addition to those of it’s direct landholdings in Italy, from all of Western Europe.
What the Portuguese starting rounding the main bulge of W. Africa and trading south of there they wanted gold and spices and other items of high value, in return for scarce salt and European cloth and metal goods and found that. They also found Africans pressing slaves upon them for sale. Slaves were a long established commondity for trade there both internally and with those other and much earlier to them distant foreigners, the Arabs, who had long bought slaves some originating from this region for the trans Saharan caravan slave trade to Arab markets in N. Africa.
Although the Portuguese did bring some African slaves back as curiosities and house servants for their king Henry the Naviagtor and to be sold to aristos in Portugal for the same, there really was no big demand in Europe for black slaves as laborers. There were generally plenty of serf and peasant laborers populating Euro fields – sometimes too many. It wasn’t until the Portugese got blown off course and discovered the far east coast of Brazil jutting out towards Africa that there became a European demand, and before too long a huge one, for African slaves to work Brazilian sugar and other plantations. You see the Brazilian natives, never terribly numberous on the ground compared to more agricultural societies, died off in huge numbers just as Caribbeans and North American natives did, from Eurasian diseases they’d been isolated from and hence had no immunity to.
Soon the Spanish wanted African slaves for the new plantations in the Caribbean as well, in imitation of the Portuguese in Brazil, and the transatlantic slave trade was on.
That’s some non ideological history for you.
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For “anonymous” Joe I mean.
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Of South (India), SE and East Asia.
The silk road did run from China on the east, although it was only in the Mongol period that it was controlled by a single power or that caravans might go from one end to the other at all often. Good way to get it all robbed away and you killed. Instead it went from carrivan city to city along the silk road, changing hands and getting marked up.
The sea trade across the Red Sea and Indian Ocean ending in S. India on the fabled Malabar coast and other parts of the west coast of India, so far as the Arab sea traders were concerned. SE Asian spices and Chinese silks and porcelains made it to S Indian as well, to be traded there and further traded on, sometimes to Europe.
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Salt was the meat and fish freezer of the time. It was the only way to preserve it for long, or the only way together with long drying. Hence it’s main value then.
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R you dumbass, Joe is deliberately using a ridiculous example to demonstrate how stupid PA’s logic about all blacks owing thank to a recent first generation immigrant prole is. Supposedly you have such a high IQ and you can’t recognize basic ironic humor?
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ok i give up
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R–
This is ridiculous on many levels, aside from being way over the top and provocative.
The bell curves on IQ and time preference and so on heavily overlap. There are plenty of blacks who are smarter than the average white or E. Asian and smarter than the typical white at state college as well. Overlapping bell curves.
When I talk about racial differences the reason is to combat leftist social engineering of AA and the “disparate impact” test for racial discrimination — which takes as it’s fundamental assumption the blacks are just as smart as whites and have the same time horizons etc and that any time there’s a disparate impact of a test it must be because the test, or the use of the test for employment decisions, must be racially discriminatory. Which is of course incredible doublethink that ignores reality in service of Marxist origin equalism, certainly across races and genders etc. It’s to combat the turning of about all of our social policies upside down to equalize the races as groups in outcomes, which is an impossible task or is without communist level redistribution and lack of efficient productivity.
It’s not to say no blacks can be of any importance in the world or in our society which is utterly absurd — and belied by the present and past reality as well.
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Actually, since black people were among the US servicemen that freed you from communism (providing toilet paper), and the only sports and music you saw at first. You should be on your hands and knees thanking us for it.
Joe, since German-Americans were the majority of theU.S. servicemen who liberated Europe, should Jews be grateful towards Germans for liberating them from the Holocaust?
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Doug, she’s half black and that picture is of a black guy. No amount of rationalization is going to change that. Sorry.
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Niger trans Saharan slave (and other) trade routes circa 1400, before any of the European black slave trade began:
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A few funny things about Jennifer Beals and her blatantly black dad. If someone who looked like her dad was accused of raping a white woman or had a very low IQ, I’m sure all these nitpicks claiming he looks half-white or is only 60% black would conveniently disappear.
Anyway there are plenty of mulattoes who look about as ethnic as Jennifer Beals. Like Quincy Jones daughters:
http://mulattodiaries.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/biracial-jones-sisters-of-no-relation-to-me/
I’m sure people will now try to prove Quincy Jones is not black.
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There are not plenty, but only a very few who look as white as Jennifer Beals or the Qincey Jones girl whose picture is on top in that link, when the father is around 20% white admixture which is typical of blacks in the US. That of course makes a so called current day 50/50 mix, really 60% white, 40% black.
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Joe, since German-Americans were the majority of theU.S. servicemen who liberated Europe, should Jews be grateful towards Germans for liberating them from the Holocaust?
They should be exactly as grateful as blacks should be towards a Polish immigrant like PA who never met a black person until 1990.
Agree?
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1 – both girls, top and bottom of the link, are quincy jones’ daughters
2 – there are not only a very few who look as white as jennifer beals and quincy jones two daughters. my family is filled with mulattoes an both sides of the family tree. i’m pretty sure i know more about them than you.
3 – 50% black or 40% black is not a huge difference, so i’ll take it. it’s still almost half black. before you said it was “small fractional,” then “25-30%,” now you’re saying possibly 40%, so i guess my point’s been made.
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Huh?
About your own family sure you know more.
I’m not in the least, slightest bit sure you’d tell the truth in a mixed black/white race contentious context however, even when the contention was at a high and intelligent level. Such is leftist ideology. Lenin and legions of marxists before and since have ridiculed “bourgeois truth seeking”. Leftists are grounded in Marxism, at the very least in significant part, whether they know or admit it or not.
A great many self described “mulattoes” in the US are a whole lot more white than black, but still culturally identify as black, especially for wide public white consumption.
Don’t think I know little about this.
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Frankly an idiotic, must be highly emotional, comment. I never implied otherwise.
What I did imply is that the girl who’s image is on top looks a good lot more white than the girl below, particularly when one looks at their side by side earlier aged photos with the girl below’s hair not staightened to look more European. Which black girls going for classy beauty do all the time, as you know.
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Joey, as long as this country’s schools, media, institutions, and individual blacks continue treating me and my children like we’re 18th century South Carolina plantation owners, that’s how long I’m gonna keep reframing.
As long as blacks expect contrtition from me, I will countersue for their gratitude.
That knife cuts both ways, joey, capiche? 😀
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The difference between dissent and sedition is that one is contentious and the other contemptuous.
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PA :
That knife cuts both ways, joey, capiche?
Nice try, attempting to upgrade a couple of notches from P(r)olish to Italian. No cutting ahead in line. You are a lesser white, from a culture with no cultural pull beyond its easily-invaded borders.
But, for reasons explained before, your unsuccessful group needs to start giving ‘rispikt’ and ‘gifvts’ to African Americans, for reasons explained earlier.
Let me say it in a way you can understand :
“Ze Poles vill gif rispikt und givfts tu me bikos High im bleck.”
Somewhere in America, a Polish au pair is doing it raw dog with a bling-decked brotha, after experiencing masculinity for the first time.
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lol @ joe 😀
fucking hilarious
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Anonymous,
Thx. But I myself got a chuckle from ‘GayButtox’ above…
I had no idea PA was so……..troubled.
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Joey, it’s good that masked behind your face-saving buffoonery you concede my point.
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PA’s responses are getting progressively desperate.
Joe, lay off already.
You made your point.
Now you’re just being a cruel asshole.
Move on.
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Somewhere in America, a Polish au pair is doing it raw dog with a bling-decked brotha, after experiencing masculinity for the first time
Somewhere in America, a brotha´s mummy is washing the clothes of a white family.
Also, the “masculinity” of blacks is pure homoerotic BS of anglo-saxons. Everything understood as masculinity, such as willingness to fight one-on-one, publicly telling your adversary that you two will fight before start punching (aka, not attacking from behind), serenity to stop fighting once the opponent falls and considering it degrading to fight the obviously weak are entirely absent in blacks.
the few exceptions are either due to living among overwhelming white majorities (Like the U.S.) or some sort of Islamic Chivalry Code (though not the norm at all, there examples of Black Muslims behaving as chivarously as the first Arab conquerors. In both cases, both in the US and the Islamic World, a key component for a black adopting a warrior´s code is substantial non-black ancestry. I.e, having your mother impregnated by the Cotton/Sugar farmer or by the Arab Jihadi puts into the son´s blood part of the honor codes of the non-black father
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The Prole Pole :
Joey, it’s good that masked behind your face-saving buffoonery you concede my point.
How?? That is a weak surrender by you, and you know it.
Now then, for the important message :
“Ze Poles vill gif rispikt und givfts tu me bikos High im bleck.”
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FAIL.
Got way too long, boring and pedantic for a response to a simple joke.
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Yeah, that was laughably bad. I kinda felt bad for him with that one honestly.
That never get old lol 😀
How long do you think gig racked his brain to come up with that nerdy essay response? lol
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Gig–
Good points.
Anonymous–
‘tard.
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No Joey, you lost. You conceded my original point that my claim to your gratitude is legitimate, given the prevailing orthodoxies that you support. It was a pretty important point and you failed to defend your side of the argument.
But go ahead and make up fake accents if it helps you save face. It’s a freeform blog. If your monkey antics amuse some, have at it.
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PA
I agree.
After all blacks overwhelmingly feel that blacks should get AA in preference to all whites, not just former slaveholders descendants or those who fought for the south in the Civil War. The vast majority of blacks think in terms of being a racial group owed things by other racial groups as groups all the time, and Joe did not and has not distanced himself from that viewpoint.
Unlike Tyrone.
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Let me step in here.
PA’s responses are getting progressively desperate.
hi-5.
PA was humiliated several times over, and this reminds everyone how much of a loser he is. Doug1 will obviously side with PA, right or wrong. Also note that Doug1 is desperately trying to avoid having people notice that he was brutally pwned by Avinguda Diagonal further up.
Joe’s dismantling of PA was classic, and the legit mockery of his accent and demands is worth remembering for future use. The same goes for Anon’s ‘Poles are Proles’ slogan.
How long do you think gig racked his brain to come up with that nerdy essay response?
About 3 days.
Isn’t gig a Brazilian black guy who likes black women with boom booms?
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Isn’t Ruby yet another black who reflexively sides with other blacks in anything black/white dispute? Unlike lots of whites including me necessarily, though I certainly don’t do the lefty white reverse thing either.
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Avinguda Diagonal is some very beta sounding MRA only (non game) loser that I’ve never heard of around here. He wasn’t worth responding to. Didn’t sound like he has much interest in game much less knowledge of it. Nor any knowledge of history whatsoever though he pretended to, what with his stupid and ignorant orations on only monogmous societies this and that. Ignorant sot. Hasn’t heard of china I guess, or Alhambra Islamic Spain.
And so on.
Pwned, ha. Idiot.
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Doug1 is desperately trying to avoid having people notice that he was brutally pwned by Avinguda Diagonal further up.
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gil is a very cleaver, witty and gender astute white Brazilian investment banker in his late 20s.
And yeah Roissy loves him no homo.
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you reflexively take the pro-white side anyway so what you say doesn’t really matter. no one cares.
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Fred Redd’s comment above is a good conclusion :
PA’s responses are getting progressively desperate.
Joe, lay off already.
You made your point.
Now you’re just being a cruel asshole.
Move on.
PA lost humiliatingly. Joe has to exercise a bit of restraint in the degree to which he bloodies the much weaker PA. That would be humane.
[editor: i’m not following this thread, but this is beginning to sound like proof by assertion.]
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Clegg will never criticize Churchill for having been soft on Stalin and sending hundreds of thousands of POW to the USSR after the war nor will he criticize the Allies for the mass deportation of germans they allowed to take place after the war which I read caused the death of up to 2 million german civilians.
And in 1939 the most tyrannical regime on the face of the planet was the USSR and they had already killed I don’t know how many millions of people. The Nazis invade Poland and the UK declares war on them. The USSR invades the other half of Poland but the UK doesn’t declare war against the soviets. Quite a double standard. I’d like to get an explanation for that. Stalin Alpha, Churchill Beta? And in the end Poland was swallowed by the soviet empire.
some people here like to believe in pretty lies when it comes to history and politics
Gil:
“A WW2 revionist who says the U.S. coverted attacked Japan?”
Robert Stinnett, a pacific war vet who researched the matter and wrote a book about it says that’s what happened – and he defends Roosevelt’s decision because americans before Pearl Harbour were against entering the war.
Doug1:
“If Truman hadn’t done that and we’d lost a million or half a million or a quarter of a million more American soldiers in securing the complete surrender of the home islands of Japan”
The idea that one side needs complete unconditional surrender is stupid. CUS is a wartime politician’s ego-trip caused more by fear of getting booed by the media exploiting dumb patriotism than by worry over real geo-political consequences.
If the politicians don’t care about their own nation during peace time I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt during war time. It’s too easy.
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Brian:
“And that doesn’t even mention the 100 years of official racism and neglect.”
you forget that roughly the same thing happened to the chinese in the 19th century. they were 3rd class citizens and yet they didn’t turn out like the blacks did. In fact asians in western countries commit less violent crimes and crimes in general than whites themselves, despite having lived in ethnic ghettos for a couple of decades and being systematically discriminated against by whites until they were given equal rights.
MyLeftFoot:
“There is no scientific proof that the discrepancy arises solely, or even predominantly, because of genetic differences between the races.”
perhaps but there’s a lot of evidence that socio-economic programs based on egalitarian premises don’t do sht to make the discrepancies disappear.
Humans aren’t born equal because nature doesn’t know what equality is. You got to choose between believing in Equality or Evolution. For some people it’s a tough choice because they’ve been conditioned to put morality before reality.
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MyLeftFoot–
Nobody but nobody who’s anybody and not a single scientist claims the stable IQ gulf between blacks and whites arises solely because of genetic differences between the races. That’s entirely a red herring.
However the preponderance of the evidence does suggest that 40 to 80% of the difference in the environmental conditions of the US is due to genetic differences. So said the Bell Curve and so say studies since. See this Jensen and Rushton 30 years of evidence I linked above.
Further there is not now nor was there EVER any preponderance of the scientific evidence that the black/white racial differences in IQ were entirely due to any of the variations of the environmental theories advanced by leftists. And the most of the left HAS repletedly claimed that all the measured IQ differences are due to environmental cases entirely. And not genetic differences whatsoever. Which is actually absurd on it’s face in light of how evolution on sub species works. And that’s just what races are. In fact in biology race is sometimes used in animals interchangeably with sub-species.
See this comment of mine explaining that last in some detail.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/behold-diversity/#comment-168264
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Michael–
You idiotic dufus.
First let me say uneqivocably that had I been Truman in July and August of 1945 I would without a doubt have ordered that atomic bombs be dropped on Japan, city by city, until it unconditionally surrendered. (Well they’re being allowed to keep their Emperor without his having any real power was fine and wise, in terms of social control.)
Second it was the essentially unconditional surrender of Japan and Germany that allowed the US to remake both societies thoroughly into non militaristic, democratic, but also economically super thriving nations. The most successful occupations in history.
Limp wristed, over civilized, pansy lefty dufus.
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Doug1:”Limp wristed, over civilized, pansy lefty dufus.”
nice try but you’re trying too hard
Doug1:”Second it was the essentially unconditional surrender of Japan and Germany that allowed the US to remake both societies thoroughly into non militaristic, democratic, but also economically super thriving nations.”
If that ^^ isn’t lefty thinking I don’t know what it is. You’re showing your over-civilized sugary side but you don’t seem to be aware of it. And if you’re seriously suggesting germans couldn’t have been an economic superpower without 20th century american occupation you seriously need to study history a little more.
Why do you feel the need to convince me of the generous altruistic benevolence of the US? I’m not a leftist in any objective meaning of the term and I’m not an american [not german either in case you were tempted to play the ethnic card to deride my reply]. I therefore have little emotional investiment in american history which enables me to see things more clearly. And that rational detachment could work for americans too if they were enclined to make an effort for it.
Sometimes I miss the good old roman times. They would have died of shame before justifying their attempts to conquer Germania with progressive altruistic arguments.
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Michael–
The main good thing about the American occupations of both Japan and Germany was that unlike the resolution of WWI, it kept either from attacking America or it’s close allies again, for a good long time now. It in fact turned both into strong allies of the US in the fight to keep the Soviets from controlling all of Europe and NE ASia.
What I had in mind re: the economic success of both countries following their occupation wasn’t that it was caused primarily by the US (though the Marshall Plan and our being open to their exports sure didn’t hurt either country to say the least). It was more that it didn’t seek to prevent that economic including industrial super recovery. As some plans for our occupation of German in particular did proposed. E.g. the Morgenthau plan. Yeah the relative and I think father of the long time NYC District Attorney.
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