Reader GdI wrote in the comments to yesterday’s post:
All very interesting but I miss CH, whose near-daily offerings were that rarest of things online: unique. Funny, pithy, deeply irreverent, yet also profoundly based on a coherent and totally counterrevolutionary (and utterly reality-based) worldview. As Ken Tynan said, “Write heresy, pure heresy …” And so it was.
Occasional forays into paleo-punk politics and HBD-istan are are well and good, but Citizen Renegade ain’t doing it. This CH-lite-by-committee thing ain’t working.
Bring back The Dark Lord!
I see his point. This blog has been missing satan’s spittle lately. Henceforth, the dude who’s been writing the mid-week posts has been reassigned temporarily to Vladivostok. Now let’s get down to business.
Got mistress? If your woman finds a pair of earrings in your bedroom that aren’t hers, simply tell her:
“I was doing some spring cleaning and I found those. I figured they were yours.”
This is an impenetrable defense. The phrasing leads her to think the earrings are from a girl many years ago. You get the double plus goodness of insta-absolution plus the resume booster of female preselection.
Real Men of Genius called; they want this blog’s knowledge.
***
There’s this scene in “Death at a Funeral” that involves Uncle Russell, Norman, a toilet, a hand, and a runny shit deflected mid-expulsion. When I think of marriage, this is the scene that comes to mind — trapped under the maelstrom of an agitated anus. And yet, despite my words of warning, some of you will be damnfool enough to go ahead and get married.
Ok, then, if you want to march into the iron maiden with a dopey grin on your face, at least nudge the very bad odds slightly in your favor.
Rule #1 for men who insist on marrying the pussy they’ve been getting for free:
Make her propose first.
Yeah, this won’t be easy. How many women do you know who proposed marriage to their recalcitrant boyfriends? I know one. ONE. But that one gives all men hope, for where there is one, there can be many.
What’s the big deal about getting her to propose, you ask? Oh man, you have no idea how much misery you’d be saving yourself. Every time there’s an argument, and wifey is tempted to play that favorable divorce card with all the gatling guns of the misandrist industrial complex pointed squarely between your eyes, she’ll remember that time she dropped to one knee to ask — or more likely to beg for — *your* hand in marriage, and her rationalization hamster will whisper in her brain that the argument must be her fault, because why on earth would she have proposed to an annoying loser? No, it must be that there’s something wrong with her, not you.
When a woman proposes, it is she who invests in the marriage. She becomes the chaser instead of the chased. It is her ego on the line; her judgement. A woman in this psychological lockbox will be a lot more apprehensive about walking away from the marriage. She will autonomically defer always and forever to the premise that all bitter arguments and all traveling tingles must be unfair to her husband somehow. After all, she proposed marriage to a WINNER. What girl in her right mind would propose to a chump?
Unfortunately, steering a girl to do the humiliating work of proposing is not easy. She has to be head over heels in love, for one thing. And she has to feel acutely the dread of loss. Hints at marriage won’t cut it. She has to say the words “Will you marry me?”. Variations such as “Let’s get married” or “I feel we should be married” are acceptable.
Only masters of the game should attempt the parallel universe proposal. Newbs will get dumped.
***
Need a quickie conversation boosting routine? Tell a chick you’re thinking about getting a dog. Then segue… smoothly, like a single malt… into an observation about how people’s dogs match their personalities. Tell her she looks like the type who would own a jack russell terrier. When she asks why, you say “Oh, you know, always jumpy, kinda funny in an accidental way, and full of energy.” (When negging a chick hard, Uzi style, you’ll want to pair two negative connotations with one positive connotation. You want to deflate her bloated ego, not crush it into a powder that can be snorted.)
This is a powerful neg that serves the dual purpose of giving you reams of conversational material so you don’t run into the dreaded wall of awkward silence.
The hotter she is, the gayer/nastier/goofier the dog to which you will compare her. If she’s a 9, tell her she’s a chinese crested kind of girl. If she’s a 10, she’s the type to own a fat, farting basset hound. Save the noble dogs like german shepherds for the 7s and below. If a hot chick gives you a hard time about being compared to the personality of an incontinent chihuahua, accuse her of ignoring the beautiful parts of a chihuahua’s personality, like its fierce loyalty and big dog syndrome. She will start to feel bad for being mean to chihuahuas. Pat her hand as she reconsiders her malevolence.
***
Chicks who read comic books are slutty. They will bang on the first night. Don’t ask me why this is, it just is.
***
If you haven’t touched a girl on the forearm within ten minutes of meeting her, disengage. Your pickup is toast. If you haven’t touched a girl on the thigh within thirty minutes of meeting her, cut your losses and start fresh with a new girl.
Let me explain. In every one of my successful pickups, sensual touching occurred sometime within the first half hour. If you find yourself talking to a girl for longer than ten minutes without any touching taking place, you are perched over the LJBF abyss. Her erotic charge has been drained to less than 50%. And don’t be fooled by her smiling and laughing along with your witticisms and cutesy quips. Her lips may be curled in a smile, but her untouched body is withering into a cloistered nunnery of pussy dust.
Kino is king. Escalation is eminent. Zap these golden maxims into your wet head ham.
***
You can catch a lot of pretend-pious SWPL chicks off guard with this simple line:
“So how are you helping the environment for earth day?”
If she’s a status-jockeying hipster, expect a glorious apologia of defensive posturing. And where are tingles birthed? In the defensive crouch, of course!
If she’s Dana, expect her to laugh in your face. Then grab her and give her a deep, penetrating kiss. Sneak in a little tongue.

Tying up a loose end on politics–
Roissy’s rants are more real and savage than corny mainstream conservative products. Yet at the end of the day it remains a difference of degree and not quality. “Wherever we’re going, we’re going to get there. Fuming buys nothing.” We’re going to have to face the rot music one way or another. The only choice is how. It doesn’t matter how hip you allegedly are, whether you’re a paleo or post-paleo or paleo punk or whatever. If you’re looking faggy and basically complaining about how unfair and wrong it is you might as well be Bob Dole or Jack Kemp.
There’s only one play left for people who retain core authenticity, attachment to reality and their inherited civilization.
Respectable forces insist that the world we’re building is a happy and stable setting, that no sane and healthy person would at any level harbor nostalgia for the alleged fascism of yesterday.
Perfect. We no longer have to argue. Let’s simply move forward and leftward, as quickly and directly and fully as possible. I keep hearing that people really, really want, in a serious and personal way, to live in this egalitarian world we’re creating. That this belief and choice is genuine, logical, obvious, moral, and uncontestable. that there’s nothing dark, suspicious, or unstable about the overall character of the left or liberal belief, and that people come to these ideas fundamentally on their own, without being led by a ruling elite (since we are, allegedly, self-governed).
Let’s stop arguing and test how confident people really are in this Word. I’m fully willing to take it on faith and live through it as long as everyone else is. In fact I’m thrilled to do so. Is this really, really what you want? Then lets give it to you, good and hard. Everything liberalism (as a broad idea) ends up commanding, let’s have it. And let’s see what happens.
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Brillaint. Don’t bring that dude back from Vladivostok.
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You have to be careful with your kino advice. Nothing creeps a girl out faster than the awkward beta kino attempt.
Think of that photo you posted of the omega with his arm around a girl trying to make sure his arm didn’t touch her.
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“This is gold, Jerry, gold!”
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Why bother with anything if you are an evolutionary dead end? You’ve stated you don’t want kids. Children are your evolutionary legacy and honor the ancestors who fought for you to have the cushy lifestyle you lead today. Children born out of wedlock have a statistically significant higher chance of doing poorly in life. Therefore, a real man finds the right woman, commits to marriage, and has children. He does everything in his power to ensure the best for his kids. Players like you are locked in adolescence and never realize a higher calling in life besides serving the needs of their own childish egos/evolutionary basal urges of their brainstems.
[editor: call me crazy, but staying at home watching the kids just doesn’t sound like much fun.]
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I think you are right about comic book girls.
I once met up with an arty chick at my local bar and somehow Neil Gaiman came up in the conversation. I got her back to my place under the pretext of showing her my Sandman comics then fucked her all night long.
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if “dana” c’est moi, my husband picked me up by explaining to me why patton was right and we should have gone right after russia immediately upon germany’s surrender just because we were already right there.
he’s a barbarian, i love it
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Dark Lord,
Glad to see my provocation worked; the mid-week staff needs to be sent to the GULAG — Vladivostok, where I have soujourned, is bad, but not bad enough.
Absolutely right about comic book chicks; don’t know why they spread so fast either, but they do.
And I’ve (mostly) given up on the pretend-pious SWPL chicks, although they comprise half the white, female 18-35 population in DC; no challenge left, too easy.
Quantity has a quality all its own, per Comrade Ulyanov, but sometimes less is more — in pussy and postings.
Welcome Back,
GdI
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I know a lot of women that have to essentially guilt their husbands into marrying them. I actually had to do it.
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Laura, I am curious, how many girls do-you/did-you know that were quite honest about their interest in marriage? Even if it was only amongst other girls and not necessarily their boyfriends.
This is specifically for girls between the ages of, oh, 22-28.
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Ha ha ha ha ha. Love.
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Got mistress? If your woman finds a pair of earrings in your bedroom that aren’t hers, simply tell her:
“I was doing some spring cleaning and I found those. I figured they were yours.”
Nice.
Roissy,
How would you deal with a girlfriend finding another girl’s panties?
This happened to me once with my own Dana and I had absolutely no explanation because I was so shocked I could let that happen. I just shrugged it off and said “I dunno” and she didn’t bring it up again.
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Am I the only girl who is sort of creeped out by the forearm touch? I mean, I guess it’s a good way to initiate kino cause it’s an innocuous place to touch someone, but it seems more like something a girl would do to be deliberately flirty to a guy. Not the other way around. Upper arm or shoulder would be okay, but not forearm.
Maybe it’s just me.
[editor: the upper arm or shoulder are acceptable substitutes for the forearm.]
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“Kino is king.”
This is a great saying. It needs to be repeated often.
As for getting married, I would assume an Alpha would be ok with it as long as he has a hot young mistress or two on the side to bang whenever wifey gets a cold pussy.
It is a shame that having a mistress on the side is looked down upon in America.
In other cultures (eg. Latin cultures), an alpha male is expected to have a mistress or two on the side and everybody is ok with it (or at least they don’t talk about it).
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Risk being creepy. Escalate and kino ASAP.
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omg lozlzlzzlozlzlzozzl
do not get married!!!
http://nomarriage.com
something hit me the other day and it hit me so hard that i lozlzozlzozlzlozozlzlzled out loud and everyone in the coffeee shop looked at me. lozlzlzlzlzled!!
women view men who propose to them as betas lzozlzllzlzlz!!
think about all the cock they gave their steaming wet pussy to for free, as it went tingle tingle tinglee tingle a lingle as he ground on her from behind!! one time he pulled her panties aside on the dance floor and slid it in in the dark corner and gizzed deep inside, and now tyou have a $10,000 ring you are babout 2 give her and she is carying the massive cock’s child inside lozlzozlzozlzozzo and she will tell you it’s yours and then divorce you and go back to the cock-club slider-inners and you will pay to 1) raise the kid and 2) alimony to fund the cockasss.s.s.s
lozlzlzlzlzl!
and it might also play out that she will vote for bigger government lzozlzozlzozozlo 2 make u pay for her banging and sucking and fucking. that is why women vote for bigger government, as men are the producers and workers, but women fuck and suck for the children and need $$$$$$$$$$ from all you betas lozzlzozlzozlzozlzlzoozlzlz.
sperm from the alpha, taxes from the beta,
if you call out ben bernanke you’re a hata,
the feds get a cut as feminists grow the stata,
if you’re not a bailed-out fiat ceo,
ou work the day away,
& at night mastabeta
lozlzozlzozlzl
the feds need your kids in daycare
where the corproate state teaches them not to care
about truth honor and manly convictions
drugs them up, dumbs them down 2 vote for them in elections
lsolxoxlxoxlxloxoxlxlx
tehy teach women to put out from gade 8,
dozens of one night stands they learn to hate,
men and themselves but it’s too late,
now that std and alimony is part of your fate.
lzolzlzozlzozlzl lzozlzlzlzlzllzlz!
a tee hee hee the women goes
dontya know they taught us to be hoes
as a fiat currency is the biggest pimp
feeding women & jmaking them blips
funding feminist studies classes
which teach them to rape men’s assets (asses lzozlzozlzlz!)
to transfer wealth to teh fiat masters
who care not of all the divorce disasters
and now it’s all measured by the bottom line
if you speak of god they say you whine
she smiles and says everything is fine
and texts the biker cock to bang later
after you pay to wine and dine
10+ spermintator drummer dudes at least sperminated inside them — deep inside them — many having just met her that night when her gina wnet tingle lingle and she follwed her gina t8ngles as the neocon fiat bankers command her to do from an early age as they know that by desouling her they can also crucify her future husband lozlzlzozlzozlozzlzllzlz as she will work for fiat dollars and not for fiath and the the fmaily lozlzoz.zozlozlzozlzlozlzozlzl
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I have had chicks find a thong in bed, jewelry on the side table, FMPs* under ‘her’ side of the the bed, et al … Blow it off, throw a wry smile with a wink. “Oh *how* did that get there …?”
If it gets really hot (ie she may be thinking of reaching for a knife you have foolishly left out in the too-near kitchen), remember these three easy steps to dawg survival:
1. Admit nothing.
2. Deny everything.
3. Make counter-accusations.
Bottom line: learn to sanitize your pad well, and never be honest with chicks about anything; but more importantly, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the pussy line and don’t attempt living dangerously. It could end badly for you.
*Fuck-Me Pumps – JCFMPs (Joan Crawford FMPs) are the even higher-heeled version; chicks who wear these, and are not sex workers (especially strippers), will do anything.
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Roissy, I almost vomited watching this video today:
Let us all be aware our sinister enemies who lurk about, skulking in the distance.
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I don’t think forearm would bother me. There seems to be a rash lately of men trying to touch necks and that is too creepy and threatening.
Then again my better half has taken to moving his hand lower than my back recently, so perhaps it’s just Spring in the city.
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Yeah, this won’t be easy. How many women do you know who proposed marriage to their recalcitrant boyfriends?
I’ve had several marriage proposals. I thought that was common.
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I’ve been dating a girl for some time now, and often she will tell me she loves me if we’re getting off the phone for instance. I just respond, alright talk to you later….I’ve never said it to her. My closest friend has been dating a girl for over 4 years and hasn’t said it once. We rule the relationships. We are happy doing what we want, and they are by far more invested. They go out of their way to make us happy. And if I’m happy then things are good.
When she asks me why I don’t respond or why I don’t want to spend the weekend with her and her girlfriends I always tell her the same thing. I’m a wild stallion that can’t be tamed. I do what I want when I want. Compromise is a lose lose situation. That’s why I’ll never get married.
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[editor: call me crazy, but staying at home watching the kids just doesn’t sound like much fun.]
Meh, that’s like David Alexander saying that having a girlfriend gets in the way of the really fun things.
[editor: i can have sex with a girlfriend.]
It’s your wife who would be finding fulfillment in watching the kids as long as she’s got your support and girlfriends to talk with; you’d just be swooping in and reveling in the glory of having a son.
[if it’s just a question of tossing a ball back and forth with the kid for an hour, that would be cool. but it usually involves a lot more fun-killing sacrifice.]
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“Chicks who read comic books are slutty. They will bang on the first night. Don’t ask me why this is, it just is.”
Wow….this is so true. In my experience the girls always wore glasses as well.
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I understand that people find that children bring meaning to their lives. I do. I get it.
What I don’t get is that many of those people can’t fathom meaning coming in any other way.
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Having kids is great, especially once they’re past the playing catch stage. My son is 18 and I’m enjoying telling him how to avoid getting a shrew like his mother, and how instead to get a passionate submissive like my girlfriend who doesn’t know the word ‘no’. Meanwhile I really enjoy gaming my daughter who is one of the most self-possessed and entitled people I know.
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Could you get rid of Chris (if that’s her real name) too?
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“Am I the only girl who is sort of creeped out by the forearm touch? I mean, I guess it’s a good way to initiate kino cause it’s an innocuous place to touch someone, but it seems more like something a girl would do to be deliberately flirty to a guy. Not the other way around. Upper arm or shoulder would be okay, but not forearm.”
Yeah, I don’t know what true “player” does something like this. Your focus should be on the girl touching you, not the other way around. If a woman wants you to touch her, you will know. She’ll caress your biceps, poke you, punch you, or otherwise give the green light that it’s okay to engage in physical contact. This should not, under any circumstances, be initiated by a man.
[editor: you are wrong. some women are touch-averse even when they are attracted. a man who touches women demonstrates comfort with his masculine sensuality. naturally, context is everything. don’t run out into the street touching every chick who walks by. but during the course of a pickup, proactively touching and inspiring a girl to touch you are not mutually exclusive.]
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The other thing that irks me about the family man argument is that it’s often framed as if it is a cultural and moral good. An act that will perpetuate yourself and the best of society.
The fact that all of these arguments don’t hold up never deters the people who make them. They FEEL the arguments, and rationality has no sway on them.
Everything dies, people. If you have great great great great grandchildren, they will all die and all humans will die and nothing you do will last.
You want meaning? Find it this very instant. Babies don’t ULTIMATELY confer any more meaning that you can find in this very instant.
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Laura
Yes, this is very common.
If this much at least isn’t the case the guy really doesn’t stand a chance to not get badly betaized.
Guys who have taken the red pill or at least read this blog extensively should know that his job is to not accept any guilt but rather to maneuver her into asking him. And then arguing against it in favor of living together. All kinds of reasons. It will avoid the rapid diminution of passion that often happens after getting married, his married friends tell him. It is a necessary and prudent trying out of the next step, actually living together day to day, without the messiness of divorce. And yeah get into how unfair to men divorce 2.0 has become and marriage 2.0 as well, with marital rape meaning no wifely duty to sex her husband; she can instead use it as a weapon or bribe.
Only with the greatest of reluctance and after a couple years of cohabiting happily, and then only if he wants children imminently, should a guy agree if and only if she’ll sign a prenup that makes it at least somewhat less a one way marriage contract. See what I wrote on prenups at the Spearhead.
The trouble is though that there’s just no way for men to have children in America where they aren’t inherently putting themselves heavily at their wife’s mercy. There’s nothing you can do by way of prenup or living together which can keep your wife or partner from stealing your kids away from you for any reason she feels like at any time after conception, and in practical reality not even have to let you see them much if at all. (No courts don’t really enforce a man’s visitation rights except maybe if he’s got a fortune to spend and the patience of Job in repeatedly, endlessing going to court against a recalcitrant ex wife.)
And she can and will ask the state to extract child support which includes a huge covered up alimony component, which if your a strong earning man in a high tax state, will cost you 50% and more of your true after tax or take home income.
Thus you can’t avoid matriarchy for your former kids, you out of their life, and intentured servitude, if at any time she wants to go off and pursue other romance — or cocks, as the feminist culture tells her is her empowered right and really duty to herself, anytime she feels the love has faded a bit for older news hubby – or domestic partner.
If anyone doubts that child support today is in very large part really alimony consider this. The increment for a second child is never nearly as high as the amount due to the ex wife for one child. E.g. if “child support” for one kid is 20% of his PRETAX income, that for two will typically be an additional 7%. I.e. of that 20% PRETAX child support for 1, 13% was really stealth alimony for her, to pay for her parts of her living abode and so on, no matter what her income is or could be.
THat’s the true screw job that mandatory child support is. Remember the real effect of this extractions can only be understood by translating them to after tax. That can double them if he’s a strong earner in a high income tax state. So he’s paying roughly 25% of his after tax income for her alimony if he has 1 or two kids. Any time she feels like it.
That’s indentured servitude. I’m not calling marriage itself that. It doesn’t have to be. But that’s what having kids with a woman in America today is, anytime at all, at her option.
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“When a woman proposes, it is she who invests in the marriage. She becomes the chaser instead of the chased. It is her ego on the line; her judgement.”
This is the case irrespective of who proposes. I mean, yes, men typically ask the question, but that’s only after months/years of incessant cajoling and arm-twisting.When it comes to marriage, make no mistake about it, women are the chasers. This goes for the attractive ones as well.
[editor: true if we limit our scope of observation to alpha males and their girlfriends. these kinds of men will be hard for women to corral into marriage, particularly if the woman comes with some value-killing baggage, like a propensity to gain weight easily or a kid from a previous relationship. outside of alpha males, there are plenty of betas who can’t wait to drop to one knee to slip the overpriced rock on their princesses.]
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Welcome back, evil one. Though, I was enjoying this week’s Roissy too.
Some corroborating notes:
1. I agree on the marriage thing. At the very least, a woman has to “bring it up” before a man asks. He should never ask raw dog, ie without knowing.
2. I am 4/6 for women telling me they love me, in the 4 years since I learned game. Eight year zero-streak before that. Props to Doc Love, DeAngelo, Style, and the great Roissy.
3. As for the marriage thing, if you’re not getting serious hints by 18 months, you should consider looking elsewhere (if you want to get married).
4. My buddy was the king of his relationship for several years. Younger, prettier girl. But in the last few years, he starting wimping out. She started traveling. He’d always be sucking up and apologizing. Now she wants an open relationship. I totally saw that one coming! Good, smart, educated men are blind to this shit!
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It’s maybe a distinction without a differee, but women don’t propose. Instead, they HINT A LOT. Though I once got an ultimatum, so I guess that counts as a proposal.
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Also, who says you need to be married to have kids?
Just find a dumb bimbo (who is unlikely to make you pay child support) and get her preggers by fucking her raw dawgy.
Then, visit your kid every now and then and ….presto, you get your “fulfillment” of having children.
Really, people.
Single motherhood is the future.
The feminists want it…and we men should give it to them (ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa).
[editor: sounds good on paper, but the feminists and their enablers will never allow it. remember, what women want is the freedom from monogamous responsibility coupled with the benefits of being hitched to a monogamous provider. and so the payment in blood extracted from beta slaves, married or not, sexed or not, will continue until morale improves.]
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I want to get transferred to Vladivostok. Russian women, Japan across the sea, Chinese women across the border, a lifetime supply of vodka and Lada Rivas… oh yeah. Where can I sign up for some of that?
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“you are wrong.”
You are funny. You write as if there’s an official instruction booklet on this stuff.
[editor: there is. title: “reality”.]
There are several ways you can escalate tension between you and a woman. Personally, I prefer eye contact and innuendo. If a woman thinks you’re cute, and you’re sending the right vibes, I don’t think touching her is going to get you any closer to the holy grail.
Touching is a risky strategy and I refrain from doing so unless I’ve been extended an invitation.
[no guts no glory.]
True, it might turn her on, or alternatively, she might think you’re too forward, even if she’s attracted to you.
[better to be thought too forward than not forward enough.]
It all depends on that particular girl. But why risk it when there are safer methods of building upon the initial attraction?
[sexual attraction is inherently unsafe. as it should be.]
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“true if we limit our scope of observation to alpha males and their girlfriends. these kinds of men will be hard for women to corral into marriage, particularly if the woman comes with some value-killing baggage, like a propensity to gain weight easily or a kid from a previous relationship. outside of alpha males, there are plenty of betas who can’t wait to drop to one knee to slip the overpriced rock on their princesses.”
I don’t think it’s a matter of being alpha or beta. For many of these women, nobody is trying to put a ring on them, period. Granted, most women will put FAR more effort into locking down the 6’5, chiseled investment banker, but many of these women can’t even get a mechanic to commit to them. There are plenty of customers seeking to lease for a few years, but very few want to sign that contract and make a purchase.
I know several attractive women who have been played by everything from doctors to food service workers. Part of their problem is they think that their looks are sufficient to make a man want to propose to them.
If there is such a thing as “betatude,” the ultimate remedy would be to force all “betas” into 3 month relationships with 8s and above. Trust me, they will reconsider putting rings on these chicks.
In my opinion, there are only two types of women in this world that matter: women who make breakfast for you in the morning and women who don’t.
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I don’t think initial kino has to be creepy, is it ok to use guidance as a reason for contact, like saying “stand here” or “watch out?”
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keep having fun roissy.
hope it works out for you in the future.
[editor: it’s working out for me now, concern troll.]
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Plus, I think any man will become significantly less “beta” over the course of time. First, you will naturally have a larger pool of women to date as you get older, so you won’t be as pressed. Second, you just grow tired of women and their antics as you get older, and you tolerate less.
Most guys are gonna be “beta” in college because their options suck. When you’re in middle school, all of the girls want to date high school guys. When you’re in HS, they want the college guys, etc, etc, etc. But there’s a point where they can no longer go “up,” and the new draft picks (meaning the cute 22 year old chicks) start to put pressure on the veteran players. Hey, if Allen Iverson has a problem riding the bench on my team, I’ll just cut him, wait for the next draft, and pick up John Wall. These chicks do not have as much power as you think they do, man.
[editor: phillyboy, in my post i specifically wrote that the magic of making a woman be the first to propose marriage lies in her verbalizing the proposal. hints won’t cut it, since many women are adept at dropping those kinds of commitment-extraction hints while maintaining plausible deniability that she is not the one doing the chasing. a verbal proposal utterly strips that deniability card from her.]
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haha, a concern troll on a PUA blog. “Dear R, As a longtime fan of you and the Game but I am concerned that the use of negs has gone too far…”
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you think i’m concerned about you? that’s a good one. i actually spit out a giggle.
[editor: no, i think you’re trolling using a concern pretext. do i have to spell everything out?]
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PA
Response to an ultimatum:
“Does that mean you’re proposing to me?”
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The forearm touch is a classic move used by women to initiate kino.
I rolled into a bar on a Sunday afternoon a couple of weeks ago with two ladies. There were two that were already sitting on the other side of me. They started chatting me up, and it wasn’t long before BOTH of them pulled the forearm touch move.
Out of the two chicks that I was with, I was gaming one of them. Within two minutes of seeing the two strangers petting my arm, this chick went in for the forearm touch, followed by grabbing both of my hands a minute later.
This effectively blew out the other two, as they weren’t nearly as friendly from that point on.
I’m assuming that the kino one-upmanship subcommunicated to the other chicks to back off.
Anyway, I agree. Get in and get the kino rolling ASAP.
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VI,
you probably didn’t let it “happen.” the girl probably left them there on purpose. women have both the amazing ability to hide the shit they leave behind in the most hard-to-notice spot and at the same time the ability to sniff out anything another woman has left behind.
this is why all the white knights are hilarious. never feel guilty about running game on a girl, cause chances are she’s running a more advanced game on you.
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lena
This notion that it all falls apart for a man if he’s not already long married as he gets older, past 50 or say past 60 is such hogwash.
Aside from the much younger girls he can get if he’s in shape, has or develops game, and has some success in life (and try marriage if those things aren’t true, or more likely divorce), there are OODLES of divorcees of all ages that do want to re-up with an attractive older man. Scads. Most of them will easily tolerate “just” living together too.
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Funny. Also, “Dear R, I’m concerned that your use of such language is not becoming of you and will drive away the women who ‘really have something going for them’ like a law career.”
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haha, schmoe but a CT has to first establish credentials. “Dear R, I’ve been using the game to bag dimes ever sense reading Mystery’s book but I am worried that your constant sarging means you’ll never experience the joys of world of warcraft on friday night.”
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j r
Truer words were never spake. My son had a gf for a long time, and she would never let him touch her tits but always pressured him to go for the procreative act, which he didn’t fall for. Think she might be a predator? I dunno. But no hole goes unfilled, so eventually she cheated on him and he dropped her like a hot potato. I think at the time he had long-term inclinations, and she seemed like a good prospect until she showed her true colors. To his credit he didn’t fall for any of that “I’m sorry” shit.
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I’m surprised that so few women would propose first – aren’t they usually the desperate? They may not get down on one knee but they’ll do the beg and plead convos no?
I’m with you on the keno – a man ‘brave’ enough to touch me early on gets my attention.
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What is “HBD”?
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Doug1,
You’re too down on marriage. Even in states without Covenant Marriage (a legal innovation of which I strongly approve), you can still get marriage 1.0 instead of marriage 2.0 by picking a quality girl.
Look for one who is young, either religious or conservative or trained in the hard sciences, from an intact family she is on good terms with, for whom you are the best guy she has ever been with in every way (which in practice means she’ll still be counting on one hand), who has shown a capacity to make decisions where logic overrules emotion.
The “religious or conservative or hard sciences” requirement is serious, any of those 3 implies natural resistance to feminist propaganda.
None of the other requirements are optional if you want to be sure of avoiding 2.0 , though the definition of “young” is somewhat relative to how old you are; but if you want kids and she is already in her 30’s, you’d better be damn certain of her good character because you’ll be moving very fast.
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i guess i need to spell things out. i am not concern trolling. im pointing out that you may have failed to evaluated the future result of your present lifestyle.
Doug1
as i gather from his writings, roissy is not interested in marriage and children…ever.
he may change his mind as he ages. i am not saying he wont or that he wont be able to find a women to marry.
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Usually Lurking,
I’m older than the age group you mentioned: 22-28 year olds. My friends who had been dating the same man since college were the ones who tended to get married younger. I actually think that a lot of girls in that age group (22-28) would be interested in marriage if they really liked someone. I do know a few more independent ones that didn’t seem to be in as much of a rush to settle down. Why do you ask?
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I couldn’t embed because of the video rights but check this one out – it’s so apropos.
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Doug1,
You’re too down on marriage. Even in states without Covenant Marriage (a legal innovation of which I strongly approve), you can still get marriage 1.0 instead of marriage 2.0 by picking a quality girl.
Look for one who is young, either religious or conservative or trained in the hard sciences, from an intact family she is on good terms with, for whom you are the best guy she has ever been with in every way (which in practice means she’ll still be counting on one hand), who has shown a capacity to make decisions where logic overrules emotion.
The “religious or conservative or hard sciences” requirement is serious, any of those 3 implies natural resistance to feminist propaganda.
None of the other requirements are optional if you want to be sure of avoiding 2.0 , though the definition of “young” is somewhat relative to how old you are; but if you want kids and she is already in her 30’s, you’d better be damn certain of her good character because you’ll be moving very fast.
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Never mind it embedded – blond moment.
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Jcut,
That left a very bad taste in my mouth. Couldn’t get past half of it.
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Gentlemen – this is precisely why you MUST NEVER MARRY.
http://pjammer.livejournal.com/206356.html
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Doug,
Based on my real life observations I have to say you have a point. I don’t see any big drawback for a man to postpone marriage. I know plenty that are doing it and their lives are pretty good.
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I’m older than the age group you mentioned.
Right. But, when you were that age, how many? And, I am not asking if they were interested. I am curious to know how many actually said that they want to get married.
Back in college, almost every girl I knew said that she, either, did not want to get married (as in, ever) or, that she really wasn’t sure. In fact, I only knew 2 who said outright that, at least someday, they wanted to get married.
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“a verbal proposal utterly strips that deniability card from her.”
This is true. I get your point. But would you honestly want to deal with a woman long enough to get her to the point where she’d actually take a knee and propose to you? In my experience, any woman who would do this is usually (1) fat, (2) ugly, (3) old or (4) some combination of these three. I’d think you’d have to spend a significant amount of time with a non-quality woman for this to happen. It would be funny, but I don’t think it’s worth investing the energy.
I seriously doubt you could get a quality woman to propose, but if you can, I’ll give credit where it’s due. A woman would rather eat cow manure than propose to a man. The same goes for admitting that she got dumped by a man. I dumped a girl during breakfast one time, and then she called me later that day to expalin all the reasons why we were incompatible. They’re not built to handle rejection. And if you think rejecting their commitment is bad (which happens to women often), try rejecting their sexual advances. It shakes them to the core.
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think of how much money the fiat masters have made via the desecration and destruction of marriage lzozlzlzozlzozlzl
all off the back of the creator of welath–the man.
think of the billions that have flooded into their divorce courts and law schools lzolzozzlozlz zlzozlzlzozlzozlzlz billkions gazillions
think of the billions they have had flow into their welfare state administraors as they fund a fatherless society easy to9 manipulate with ritalin and drugs. lzozlzllzlzlzz
think of the billions they get from alimony adiminstrations for an honest man’s past use of hise wife’s pussy which she gives freely to all beofre and after marriage but whcih the husband alone must pay for before, during, and after. lzozlzo9zlzozlzlzozlzlz
think of the billions tehy get from child support payments lozlzozl.zozlzlzozzlolzozozlzozoz
becvause women do not create nor innovate but merely perfrom pr in short skirts and market the sub-prime fiat products that have bankrupt our antion they are rewarded by the fiat bankers lzozlzozozlzozlzozozzllzl and they need men to do the physical labor and creae and build lozlzlzozzlozo everything in your room was conceived of and built by a man the ocmputer the transistors inside the internet the screen the table the chair the room was built by a man and today bitchy little women are programmed by the federal reserve tyo stamp there little feet and demand more, more, more, while giving their vaginal region to anyone they want whenever they want and just using men 2 pay 4 it alll zozlzozlzllz zlzzlzlzozolzlzozozlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzl and charlotte allen u can quote me lzozlzlzozzlo
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Kino is King, eh? Escalation is eminent? Then how do you explain this (skip to about 1:30 or so):
That one never works for me either. Go figure!
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Polymath–
I’m not saying marriage can’t work out in America. yes selection is obviously crucially important.
However men are taking an enormous risk. The divorce laws are only getting worse for men including over the last decade (esp. re: alimony then). What was excluded by a prenup may end up not being when feminists get the legislature or courts to override it, e.g. on “unreasonable” alimony waivers.
As well however well chosen, women’s beliefs can change over time when in the midst of this feminist media culture, and when talking to her divorced or thinking about it girlfriends.
Marriage or having children with a woman in america (while having the ability to earn any money) is handing her a legal option to exert tremendous one way power.
That’s just the fact. Most men don’t realize it or deny it unless or until divorce (or child support w/stealth alimony) happens to them.
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My mom proposed my dad. My dad never changed a diaper.
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And about marriage? Any man who gets married, in the US anyway, is an idiot, and needs to have his head examined. It’s almost, no…it’s just like, flipping a coin. Heads..my life is ruined. Tales..my life is slightly less ruined.
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Try getting that point across to Polymath or Nicole. They both believe in eternal love.
Eternalists crack me up.
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Roissy…on the kino within 10 minutes forearm, 30 minutes thigh…spot on…
Thought lately I’ve suddenly noticed chicks doing the forearm touching. It makes me hard suddenly when they do it in the middle of a chat…usually started with a neg by me.
The hot receptionist at work this week came over (didn’t call) to set up a meeting which she could have also done by email.
When I walked over to the executive’s office, I negged her by thanking her for the personal touch but if she was going to walk all that way could she at least bring a sandwich??
She laughed….heartily and then touched MY forearm. Yes…banging my boss’s PA will take some finessing but it’s on.
Recently in the middle of negging a hot medical student at a party I was at, she suddenly grabbed my forearm in the middle of something funny I had said.
The question I have…..how long does this attraction last? I’ve had great kino from many girls who have then balked at anything further.
Does kino really create a more lasting impression?
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Doug1,
“As well however well chosen, women’s beliefs can change over time when in the midst of this feminist media culture, and when talking to her divorced or thinking about it girlfriends.”
Wrong. There is a subset of women whose character is good enough, and whose views are well-formed enough, that media culture and wacky girlfriends cannot shake their core personality or commitments.
I assume when you say “however well chosen” that you do not deny that such women exist, but you deny that they are identifiable. They are hard to identify if you are blinded by love, and it is even harder to be sure of the character of a very young woman (early 20’s or less) because they are not always fully cooked yet, but that’s OK if you are going to oversee the finishing process. Such women will remain loving and faithful if you keep up your end and maintain your game and you agree on fundamental issues like kids and career.
Marriage, even marriage 1.0, is not for every man, but traditional marriage it is fundamental enough to human nature that it will never go entirely out of style and there will always be men and women suited for it. The tragedy today is that the traditional wisdom has been so widely forgotten that unsuitable choices are the norm.
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Hey xsplat,
I have been saying all along that people are different. I don’t criticize your lifestyle, but you’re committing a major error if you think all men and women should be in relationships like your own.
If I can admit that your lifestyle works for you, why can’t you admit that mine works for me?
People are not all alike. And just because someone makes a bad choice and gets into a bad marriage does not mean that every choice of mate he could possibly made would have been bad. (For SOME men it is true that every choice would have been bad because they are unsuited for marriage, but that’s not true of all men.)
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Gotta agree, initiate kino early with arm touching, and escalate regularly, or you’re toast.
Looking back over my playeristic life, I see that I lost at least 20 chances to sleep with beautiful women by failing to hold eye contact and initiate kino early on. The conversations would go wonderfully, but I simply was not advancing the pigskin down the field.
The miserable product of being trained by a feminist mother to be overly concerned with women’s comfort level.
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Poly, I’ve never anywhere come even close to intimating that all men should follow any lifestyle – let alone mine. I’ve many times over and in many ways said that the human condition is a condition of castes. I’ve said that so strongly that I’ve said it is biologically programmed.
Some men are family men.
I have no beef with that.
Everlasting love though, that’s another issue. But lifetime monogamy and the fact that some people are suited to it and it works out for them – that’s peaches and cream.
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Poly, my beef with the very concept of everlasting love is, it is only a valid concept in hindsight. It has no predictive utility. As a matter of practical, tactical, and strategic concern, the concept causes more harm than good.
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Polymath–
My larger view for society is not that we should do away with marriage. I think marriage for the duration of offspring’s childhood is very important in raising the next generation (but that the 50% divorce rate much of that with children is hardly in accord with that). Instead my view is that men should go on a marriage strike, man by man, until the deal that is marriage 2.0 turns into a marriage and divorce 3.0 that’s a whole lot fairer to men in today’s context, or hopefully today’s changing context.
The larger view dovetails with my individual advice to men in the meantime. It’s fine and wonderful to love a woman who’s in love with you, and to emotionally commit to her for what you mutually intend to be a long time. It can be rewarding to cohabit with her, though I recommend a very simple agreement then to protect you. It’s not fine to enter into an entirely one way commitment with her, the legal contract/”partnership” of marriage 2.0. Certainly not without a prenup.
Tragically, having children with a woman any how, any way, in America is now (since the hyper feminist 90s), very dangerous as well, assuming you want them and the role of dad. For the reasons I stated in a comment not far above.
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“Gotta agree, initiate kino early with arm touching, and escalate regularly, or you’re toast.”
Wouldn’t you rather have it the other way around?
{editor: it would be great if girls just tossed themselves at men regularly, but it doesn’t work that way. as a man, you will more often than not have to take the initiative if you want the prize.]
I mean, when a girl likes you, she’ll put her hands in her back pockets, lean forward, and poke her chest out for your delight. She’ll hit you after you’ve made a joke that’s not even that funny. If you fall back and let her initiate the contact, it’s much easier to gauge her interest in you.
[the problem with falling back is that you remove a powerful male attraction signal that women look for. women are turned on by a man who goes for what he wants, and one obvious demonstration of that is being “a little too forward”.]
The downside to touching women is that, if she’s not interested in you, she may go back and tell all of her friends what a touchy, gropy, feely perverted loser you are. And then you’ll really be toast.
[if she’s not interested in you, why care what she thinks? she’s now officially off your radar. don’t waste mental energy thinking about girls who aren’t going to sex you.]
“In every one of my successful pickups, sensual touching occurred sometime within the first half hour.”
Roissy, if you just met a girl, why are you talking to her for up to a half hour anyway?
[seduction is a languid dance, not a glory hole.]
You need to keep it moving. Hitch didn’t give Sara Melas a half hour of conversation. He kept it short and interesting and then moved on. If you’re in a large setting, which presumably you’re in (it’s not cool to rub a girl’s thigh in the post office, no?), you need to make the intro, make eye contact, make her laugh, and then MOVE ON.
[moving on has its limitations. no point in moving on so far that you don’t get the lay.]
You don’t even have to move on to a prettier girl or even another girl for that matter of fact. As long as she takes note of your social agility, you should be good. Just keep it short and keep it moving.
In sum, I don’t think physical contact gets you far initially. That can be reserved for later dates. Girls that like you will touch you, and in essence, be the easiest to smash.
[if you’re a very charismatic man then yes, girls will occasionally touch you first if they really adore you. but most of the time you will have to spend some effort convincing them that you’re king of the cocks. part of that process involves initiating touching to let a girl know you are comfortable getting sensual sooner rather than later.]
Sometimes it’s best to play it a bit cautious. You wanna go into Round One throwing jabs, not spinning backfists.
[sure. but when in doubt, it’s better to err on the side of boldness instead of caution.]
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xsplat,
I don’t think we really disagree then, because I was not talking about “everlasting love”, I was talking about finding a wife suited for monogamy, who wouldn’t divorce you and take you to the cleaners.
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Poly, it was a comment you made in some previous thread I was alluding to. You and Nicole were talking about familial bonds that grow between couples, and how once grown it was inconceivable they could be severed by any but the most catastrophic of events. Boredom or divergent interests would not be catastrophic enough.
That’s the kind of everlasting love I was refuting.
I’m NOT refuting lifetime monogamy. I’m just refuting a human beings ability to predict lifetime monogamy. The concept is only valid when applied in hindsight.
And my proof for this is that everyone – yes as much as matters – EVERYONE – who divorces expected their love would last a lifetime.
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Poly, the reason I consider our divergent approaches to love meaningful to discuss, is that it relates to tactics. My tactic is to hope for the best but to prepare for the worst. If I actually believed in everlasting love, I’d actually trust my wife. Boy, would I ever be hit with pie if that didn’t work out.
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PhillyBoy81 I think the key is making the kino non-sexual at first. It says several things about you: you are forward enough to grab what you want, you are a physical person, you are sexual, you show affection physically, you are capable of treating her like property (women tingle at these traits).
Yet at the same time, if it’s non-sexual it shows that you touch her because that’s just how you are – not because you are desperate and sexually unrestrained. It gets her accustomed to being casually touched by you, so that when you escalate to sexual touch it “feels right”.
Touching can also compress time and lead to quicker rapport.
It’s a very powerful psychological upper hand when coupled with long eye contact.
Of course, if you are looking to cultivate a beta-provider relationship with a nice feminist SWPL girl, by all means avoid touching her until at least the third date.
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it’s only creepy/sexual harassment if you’re ugly/gameless
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omg roissy u need to come up with a list of roissyisms!!
#1: seduction is a languid dance, not a glory hole.
lozlzlzlzl!
unless it is after midnight at a college party or in a dc club or ny club or pretty much anywhere where american women hang out lzozlzzozlz
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Will someone please tell me what does SWPL mean?
I looked it up in the urban dictionary, but all they list is
‘Stuff White People Like’, and I suspect there’s another meaning intended in the usage seen here.
I am fairly new to reading PUA type blogs, so I have not yet learned every single acronym used on such sites.
Damn, we are so lucky to have this option now, reading all this stuff and exchaging comments. At the very least, it’s fun. It’s a great boost to learn this stuff and tap into this wavelength of guys who share a fun, winning atttitude & knowledge, while enjoying life as a man with some perception, skills, and effectiveness. As the Marines say, “Get some!”
Seems to me that learning this stuff about dealing with women is a lot like learning how to fight well and no longer being clueless about repeatedly getting your ass kicked by shitheads (living in the lousy dread of knowing there’s always a strong possibilty it’s soon to happen again) ….
Ah, new perceptions and skills!
And here comes another weekend!
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“{editor: it would be great if girls just tossed themselves at men regularly, but it doesn’t work that way. as a man, you will more often than not have to take the initiative if you want the prize.]”
First, you need to recognize that you are the prize. And it’s not that girls are tossing themselves at you. You just wait for them to take two steps and then you take one. In most cases, a girl touching you equals two steps.
“[the problem with falling back is that you remove a powerful male attraction signal that women look for. women are turned on by a man who goes for what he wants, and one obvious demonstration of that is being “a little too forward”.]”
What can be a more powerful attraction signal than walking across a room and introducing yourself to a woman you don’t know? This is especially true if she’s in a group. It shows you have the confidence to approach any girl or anyone under ANY circumstances to get what you want. What woman wouldn’t want a man like that? This is a major and sufficient expression of interest on a man’s part.
[seduction is a languid dance, not a glory hole.]
Why do with more what can be done with less? You can attain all of the joy of seducing a woman in a bump-and-grind to an R. Kelly song as you could to a 10 minute ballroom dance.
“[moving on has its limitations. no point in moving on so far that you don’t get the lay.]”
It’s not moving on so far that you don’t get the lay. It’s just working her up to the max and then taking that good feeling away from her. The longer you talk, the more you risk screwing it up, too. That’s why I only talk as long as I have to. That way she can imagine what you’re like instead of actually knowing who and what you really are.
“[if you’re a very charismatic man then yes, girls will occasionally touch you first if they really adore you. but most of the time you will have to spend some effort convincing them that you’re king of the cocks. part of that process involves initiating touching to let a girl know you are comfortable getting sensual sooner rather than later.]”
Without charisma, you are, in Dally’s words, “toast.” If you don’t have the charisma to get her going, it’s not like a gentle touch to the forearm is going to do the trick.
“[sure. but when in doubt, it’s better to err on the side of boldness instead of caution.]”
In a vacuum, this would be true. But in reality, girls talk as much as guys do. If a girl thinks you’re a lame, she’ll tell her friends, and then that will influence the perception of other girls around her. On the flip side, many girls don’t have the sexual utopia you think they do because they understand the consequences of promiscuous behavior. Concern for reputation keeps the majority of people in line.
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i must evaluate this “restoration” – this renaissance – before I re-commit my time to posting gems of prescient wisdom.
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Daily
No matter what approach you use towards seduction, it must come from your core. As we all have different personalities and styles, some of us will come at kino from a sexual place.
Seduction isn’t about re-manufacturing your basic style to be something that women like. If you are a geek at heart, be sexy geek. Don’t act like a jock. If you are a horndog at heart, work with that. If you are a beta provider at heart, then poor you, having to figure out when to touch a girl to get her to like you. That’s gotta be rough. If you are a beta provider at heart, date older women until you get old enough to attain a commanding presence and an outlook that puts you well above the women you lust for.
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I think Roissy is dead wrong on the “make her propose first” logic. His inability to think like an alpha in this very limited circumstance is probably a good indication of why he is not the head of a household.
All of my beta friends, every single one, got married because their long term girlfriend eventually put an ultimatum on them after several long, beta-reinforcing years. They all called me, near tears, wondering what they should do. And all but one of them are childless, still dragging on their long term relationship with the “married” title attached.
On the other hand, I proposed to my wife within a year of meeting her. She was pregnant a little over a year later. We have two kids, she is usually appropriately submissive, and we are told by our friends that we appear to have a relationship that they envy.
Marriage is a risk. But men take risks to get what they want. Men are about action, not clever verbal rationalization masking weakness and indecision. If she takes me to the cleaners and screws up the family, then that’s on her. I’m not going to behave like a pussy based on what she might do.
[editor: stepping into the path of a bullet has got nothing to do with courage. but it sure has a lot to do with stupidity..]
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seduction is getting drunk and going lzozllzozlzozzolzozzlzoz and unzipping your fly and letting her head bob up and down as you lzozlzozzozlzlzlz ahhh baby dat feels good yes yes gizsisiisisisisisisisissm !!! and then you zip it up and lzozlzlozozlzozoz the whole way on home!! just remember seduce me rhymes with pussy yo.
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“PhillyBoy81 I think the key is making the kino non-sexual at first. It says several things about you: you are forward enough to grab what you want, you are a physical person, you are sexual, you show affection physically, you are capable of treating her like property (women tingle at these traits).”
I don’t know about the last part, but everything else can be demonstrated through eye contact, a smile, or the pursing of lips. Besides, I never said that I WOULD NEVER TOUCH A WOMAN AT ALL. I simply said that I wait for her to go first because that way I’m sure I’ve captured her interest on a physical level.
True story: I had a girl jerk away one time when I tried to touch her. She apologized and said she had had some bad experiences with men. Later on, I heard that some dude she messed with was whooping her ___. This was rare, but you just never know how a girl may react. It would have looked terrible had we been in a big group. That’s why I keep my paws to myself unless otherwise instructed.
[editor: if a girl is jerking away from your touch it means one of two things. either you’re calibrating poorly and touching her before you’ve established a base level of attraction, or she’s got issues. if the latter, then you have to ask yourself if you want the trouble of pursuing a headcase who fears and loathes the cock.]
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Let me expand on the “work from your core” theme.
It’s not what you do. It’s not what you say. It’s how you do, and how you say. If you genuinely feel at ease, others feel at ease. If you genuinely are having fun, you enable others to have fun. If you genuinely feel in command, you enable the woman to let you take charge.
If you come at the question of kino as “what should I do to get her to like me”, you’ve already lost the battle.
You want to come at all social interactions as how can I have fun and have fun with this person. That’s about it. Then in that vein, you play everything by ear, escalating at a rate that is the most fun. With trial and error you’ll find out that it’s most fun to push the woman just past her boundaries, then back off, then push just a bit farther past her boundaries, then back off. Test the waters with pushing WAY past her boundaries, then back off, then push just a bit – etc etc etc.
That’s the most fun people can have.
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This is my final comment; I won’t pollute the message board with any more posts. If you want to touch a girl that badly, I suggest that you do so in an authoritative fashion.
For example, you tell her you can’t hear too well over the crowd and ask her to step away. You place your hand near the small of her back and guide her away. I think that touching is most effective under those circumstances.
[editor: that’s one way to initiate kino. another equally effective way is to lightly touch her on the arm or shoulder during moments of conversation when you’ve made her laugh or you’re emphasizing an important part of a story.]
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Roissy, it is not “courage” that I am describing. It is displaying to the woman that you are the person directing the path of the relationship; she is along for the ride. Your advice advocates making the woman the person vested in the relationship by having her put herself out there in proposing, but this is seriously the most demasculating advice I can think of. That woman will see you as a huge beta (or child) for the rest of your life. Probably worse. That’s something you can’t turn around because she will always remember how you had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, like a baby, into the marriage. The first alpha that comes along that reminds her of how it feels when a man wants to do things to their body like they are a desired piece of meat, will be banging your wife. (or should she be called the husband?)
[editor: a woman who loves a man so much that she verbally asks him to marry her is not going to see him as emasculated. your logic would suggest that every time a woman said ‘i love you’ and it wasn’t reciprocated, she would lose her attraction for him. but reality shows us that just the opposite happens. she becomes ever more enamored of him.]
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An alpha marriage proposal? It looks like this:
He initiated the tangential discussions. He chided me for my timidity in use of the “M-word”. He proposed in a unique and memorable way. He booked the band, the pastor and the reception hall. He made it happen, and he is still married at 20+ years.
[editor: thank you anecdote lady.]
A woman should reject any lesser scenario.
[“should” in one hand and “will actually do” in the other, and see which one fills up first.]
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[editor: if a girl is jerking away from your touch it means one of two things. either you’re calibrating poorly and touching her before you’ve established a base level of attraction, or she’s got issues. if the latter, then you have to ask yourself if you want the trouble of pursuing a headcase who fears and loathes the cock.]
There were only three people around when this incident occurred. Could you imagine how catastrophic it might have been at a happy hour, a fundraiser, club, or any other venue with a large number of attractive women? They would have looked at me as if I was Jack The Ripper. Again, I think this is unlikely to happen to most guys, but you never know.
[editor: risk cannot be erased. especially in matters of the heart. the worst thing you could do would be to shrink into a shell of caution based on one distasteful experience.]
This is not, however, the principal reason why I do not initiate contact. If a girl is willing to make the first move, you know you’ve got her exactly where you want her. If you can’t get a girl to at least slap your arm or punch your shoulder after you’ve told a joke or made a seemingly crass comment, then you need to reevaluate your macking.
[you could wait for a girl to touch you first as an IOI. that would be a safe choice. or you could move things along in the direction you want them to go by speeding up kino on your timetable. most women expect, and indeed prefer, the latter. which is why most of them, if left to their own estrogenic devices, will take a year and a day to touch a man they’re interested in. most women simply aren’t that bold.
btw, are you a very big man, with perhaps an intimidating brow ridge? that might explain the negative reactions. physically fearsome men need to back off a little more than the average man because everyone around them, women and men, assumes they are more aggressive and dangerous, true or not.]
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Philly
Philly, do you notice anything about this attitude that comes across as a tad… what’s the word… timid? No, no, that’s not it. Overly concerned with others opinions? Closer, but no. Fearful of the group vagina? Ya, that’s it.
Welcome to your first major opportunity to see through the matrix. I hope you pass this test.
Fearing the group vagina is what gets you cockblocked by the group vagina.
I know, I know, it’s a catch 22. That’s called a shit test, in PUA speak. You’ve got to not care what they think in order for them to like you. Really and honestly, not just as a means for them to like you.
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Telling someone you love them, and becoming engaged (and then married) are not even in the same ballpark to women. Girls say that they love someone all the time, and hear that all the time. However the “engagement story” and “wedding story” are probably the most significant personal stories in their social world. If you end up playing the role of beta pussy in those stories, your goose is cooked.
But the proof is expressed in the real world- every one of my beta friends was dragged into it, and they are all married to feminist women without children (except 1).
[editor: you may be mixing up cause and effect. i hear that, and i think “well no wonder they had to be dragged into it! what man would want to marry a feminist shrike?”]
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I do enjoy your blog, however. Very good stuff.
[the things i do for you people. where’s my grape-feeding eunuch? i must recline.]
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[“should” in one hand and “will actually do” in the other, and see which one fills up first.]
Wrong metric.
Which one lasts 20+ years. ?
[editor: the one where neither spouse has any other option? just a guess.]
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just a guess.]
and a wrong guess.
Roissy, admit you have no credentials in the LTR, marriage realm.
[editor: credential waving is the last refuge of those bereft of common sense. my credential is a stone cold acknowledgment of reality.]
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@ roissy
If you have no desires for children, how will your legacy be carried on? Besides in my mouth.
[editor: you tease. legacy is an ointment for the open wound of hopelessness that scratches at the soul of everyone who stops to think about mortality for even a second. whether you leave hundreds of descendants or none, your fate is the same: nothing wrapped in less than nothing bathed in the cold dark vacuum of infinite nothingness.]
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lozllzozozzllz just because you’ve never killed someone doesn’t men that you have no credentials in stating that murder is wrong lzozlzlzozlzlzl
lozllzozozzllz just because you’ve never married or proposed an american std-ridden gina who gave all her better years to bikers who rammed her like a pile driver doesn’t men that you have no credentials in stating that marriage is wrong when you have to pay for her to suck and fuck other cock before, during, and after marriage lzozlzlzozlzlzl
co0me to think of it, that is why women vote for bigger government–to fund their sucking and fucking off the backs of honest, hardworking men.
the fiat masters must convert their fiat baseless currency to wealth and so they fund teh fmeinism movement because they get a cut and plu sit dumbs down all of culture lzozlozz.lzozlzloz
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“@ roissy
If you have no desires for children, how will your legacy be carried on? Besides in my mouth.”
spoken like a true fiat banker trying to sell you on teh marriage hoax. lzozllzllzlz!
hey bitchy twitchy twat bitch riddle me this– “if yu have no desires to act like a motehr and save yourself for marriage insteaed of giving your better years to randowm biker/drummer cock how will your legacy be carried on? besides in your mouth?” lzozlzozlzozozlzozlzozozlzlzll!
and the funny thing is that women expire by the age of 28.
a man can wait and wait for that one good one who has had under ten cock violating her orifices (no more than four at the same time–almost a virgin by today’s fiat standardfs lzozllzoz)
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“[editor: risk cannot be erased. especially in matters of the heart. the worst thing you could do would be to shrink into a shell of caution based on one distasteful experience.]”
There’s a happy medium here. I don’t think I’ve gone to the extreme of shrinking into a “shell of caution.” However, men, or real men anyways, should exercise caution in all endeavors. As Beanie Sigel says,
“I ain’t scared, I’m just extra cautious now. I’m circling the block before I park with extra cartridges now.”
You’re right to say that “risk cannot be erased in matters of the heart.” But if that’s the case, why not just tell a girl within a week of meeting her: “Gee golly, I really like you. I hope this goes somewhere?” You can’t eliminate all risk, but you have to be smart about the risks you take. For some guys, telling a girl that they really like her actually works. In many cases, it’s a risk. For me, touching a girl before she touches me is an unnecessary risk. That’s the calculation I’ve made and I stick to it. Your calculus is obviously different. That’s cool.
“most women expect, and indeed prefer, the latter. which is why most of them, if left to their own estrogenic devices, will take a year and a day to touch a man they’re interested in.”
No Sir! If a girl digs you, she’ll touch you, and it may only take a few minutes for her to do so. Not all women are like this, but a lot of girls will jump at the opportunity to feel your guns once you’ve made a funny comment. They’re not that coy.
Xsplat, first of all, Philly and the word “timid” do not go together. Philadelphia is as aggressive and bold as it gets in everything, including the pursuit of women.
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My wife didn’t “propose”, but we did have some knock-down drag-out fights about it. Doug1’s post above about marriage 2.0 pretty well defines what my argument was.
There are some other things men can do which should at least help a little. Don’t give her a moral pass to divorce you, especially when kids are involved. It seems like every guy now thinks it is his duty to make sure the kids don’t blame mommy when she decides to go a-whoring, or just decides to turn their lives upside down because she got bored. I would never do that. If my wife decides to make their lives a living hell because she can’t keep a promise she made in front of God and everyone we know, I wouldn’t make any excuses for her. When my 4 (now 5) year old daughter met a kid whose parents were divorced, she was devastated. The kid told her that “sometimes mommys and daddys just stop loving each other”. We told her that the kid was wrong, and his mommy was just a brat. This stopped her apprehension. The world made sense again.
A good pre marriage test to ask a woman is what she would tell kids about divorce. If she wants to avoid moral judgment when discussing it with them, don’t walk, run.
When my daughter acts bitchy, my wife tells her to stop because “You don’t want to end up 40 and divorced!”.
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Rereading my post, I see that I wrote “my daughter”, where I should have said “our daughter”.
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“Xsplat, first of all, Philly and the word “timid” do not go together. Philadelphia is as aggressive and bold as it gets in everything, including the pursuit of women.”
Identifying with your city, huh? I wonder if you identify with your local sports team as well. I’ve got news – when they win, YOU dont’ win. They did. Just because you are from Philly don’t make you Philly.
You failed the matrix test. Did you even notice that I made a point? Or did that wash right by you?
The point was, you are afraid of being seen as a masher. You think it would be detrimental to your future success.
I’ll say it one last time, then I’m giving up on you. Apparently you don’t even want to learn.
The attitude of wanting to fit in with the crowd of females, to not be too socially upsetting, is detrimental to the aim of being successful with them.
I hope you noticed my point this time.
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With the armtouching, i dont like it, especially not if i just met the guy, it gives the effect as the guy would be too dominating, hand is fine though..
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xsplat has some of the sickest comments.
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“Just because you are from Philly don’t make you Philly.”
I am very much Philly. Its grit, its toughness and its swagger.
To the rest of your comment, all I have to say is, Riiiiiiiight….
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Ooooh, I like that!
That’s got to be made into a popular catchphrase, somehow.
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“it gives the effect as the guy would be too dominating”
Exactly why I like it!
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Aofe, Interesting to see how differently we react to the armtouching 🙂
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i’m from philly too. people from philly would cut your face off and eat it as soon as look at you.
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One question, Roissy: Would you consider black men the most “alpha” of all men because they don’t get dragged into marriage? Isn’t the alpha way disseminating your seed to as many women as possible, letting her have your child, and then continuing to run the streets in search of more sexual exploits?
[editor: no. the alpha way is not disseminating your seed far and wide, per se. the alpha way is being adored by a large number of hot chicks. how the alpha capitalizes on that adoration — whether it’s by sowing his oats or settling down with the hottest and sweetest of his suitors — is ancillary to his status as an alpha.]
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Oops, Anonymous was me..
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Phillyboy-
What a poser.
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biktopia–
You probably wouldn’t feel that way if a guy was really attracting you, even if you think you would. You wouldn’t feel like you’d just met him after a number of minutes.
But if you really didn’t like it and pulled back, that’s good too.
Next ….
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Usually Lurking,
It’s hard for me to remember exactly, but some friends were interested in getting married soon after college and others didn’t seem to be in any rush. I have two good friends from college who got married fairly young and I remember thinking they seemed a little too traditional. I saw them recently and they both have elementary school aged children and have nice lives. They seem pretty smart now for doing it the way they did.
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Dalrock–
I completely agree.
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Kino is king. You shouldn’t have to think about it though – let it just happen.
What are your thoughts on hugging as a greeting? Too limp-dicked?
[editor: i’m not a fan of hugging. too wimpy, too LJBF-prone, too goofy. it’s like the high five of kino.]
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most of your advice seems to be from experience, but “make her propose” obviously isn’t and doesn’t have much ring of truth to it. aren’t women USUALLY the ones who propose marriage?
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Clarification on arm touching – if it’s fawning…ya not going to work.
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Ya, I’m puzzled as well. My girlfriends usually propose. At least 80% of them, as a rough guess. I mean, they don’t say “will you marry me”, but they’ll say “you can marry me if you want to”, or I have an idea, let’s get married. I’m not putting that out there as a boast, but because this experience makes it seem strange to me that that dynamic is not common, and that the common is the reverse.
Is it really so?
Ya learn something new every day, I guess.
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Philly, you sound like you might be above average in height, looks, or status somehow. I used to be like you when I was younger and still looked good enough to wait for chicks to come to me. Someday you’ll learn. They will stop giving you blatant IOIs when you are no longer in the college party scene or whatever. They will sit back and expect you to escalate kino quickly, to prove your worth. If you do not, they will either feel unattractive or think you are a pussy, either of which turns their tingle to anger.
See, chicks aren’t really INTO 99% of guys at all, they have to be dragged along and convinced. This is why they crave what they call “confidence” in a man. Confidence is defined by women as the ability to step in, take over, tell her what she wants, and guide her choices – to fill the vacuum in her thoughts and personality. This sounds sexist but I have never met an exception that was better looking than a 6. What this means is that if you sit back and wait for women to initiate kino as a sign that she likes you, you’ll end up with fat chicks and 5’s unless you look like jonny depp.
{editor: well said, dally.]
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@PhillyBoy
I am very much Philly. Its grit, its toughness and its swagger.
And the rest of the country is totally fascinated with your city. No, really. We don’t ever stop thinking about how tough and swaggery you are.
After all, if you were to title a movie Philadelphia it would be about manly men, right?
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I prefer to insert two fingers and inspect the labial ridgeline with my thumb. Sure the restraining orders can be a hassle but the success rate is solid.
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ahappinessexperiment
As Laura said, they usually try to guilt men into it after awhile.
“Why can’t you commit? Does it mean you don’t really love me after all?”
“Will you ever commit? I’m not getting any younger.”
“The best years of my life are slipping by” [while you’ve been my bf ‘unable to commit’].
“All my friends are getting married are already are…”
Then it progresses to “soft” ultimatums:
“My clock is ticking. I have to decide. Do you love me enough to commit to me?”
“We’ve been together now for a year and a half. If you don’t know me well enough by now, will you ever? Or is it just impossible for you to commit. I can’t wait years ahappiness.”
Often if she doesn’t hear what she wants by then, esp. if you leave it in her chivalrous old school marriage 1.0 / feminist frame, she’ll bolt if she doesn’t wear you down before too long at this stage. (What you should do is re-frame it in terms of her asking you to enter into the utterly one way contract that feminists have made marriage 2.0 in america, where men esp who earn more or have kids w/her enforceably promise huge and women enforceably promise absolutely nothing. )
The last stage is the cold deadline, with sarcasm attached.
“If there’s no engagement ring by spring, it’s obvious you’ll never be capable of committing to a woman that loves you — maybe because you’re actually deep down incapable of love”
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“which is why most of them, if left to their own estrogenic devices, will take a year and a day to touch a man they’re interested in. most women simply aren’t that bold.”
Could it be that you’re arguing about two different types of women?
“If a woman possesses manly virtues one should run away from her; and if she does not possess them she runs away from you” — Nietzsche
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So apparently “SWPL” and “HBD” means
‘Ooh, we love all our cool insider acronyms, and if you don’t know what it means, tough shit, you’re not in our cool insider clique, so we can’t bother to spend ten seconds answering a simple question.’
High School mentality forever!! Yay!!
Oh wait, maybe it’s playground mentality.
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i think SWPL means stuff white people like and i think HBD means human biodiversity which i think is code for reading steve sailor, but i could be wrong.
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insiders
Have you heard of google? Or urban dictionary?
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insiders: a wee bit touchy (and Google-challenged), aren’t we?
SWPL (Stuff White People Like): cultural liberal; someone who partakes in or espouses the guilt-ridden, PC lifestyle in its various guises.
HBD (Human Biodiversity): a socially palatable label for race realism; used especially (but not exclusively) in reference to genetic group differences in IQ.
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lolzzzzz guy has hit his stride
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Roissy – er, Chateau – nice post, er column… you’re the manse.
My main wifey has proposed several times. I benignly tolerate her wistful dreaming for the time being, because I know when the ultimatums near boiling point, a little absence game will shatter her sternum into doubled over submission. The pretty picture of her joy continually breaking through the pain of a foiled female directive is apt, and justly mirrors the beauty of her tingling complaisance continually breaking through her feminine shit-testing destructive nature.
Unlike you I’m a breeder, just no interest in adding to my blessedly minimal entanglement mit der Staadt, which is of course the People, who are of course Idiots.
As for nihilism vs. legacy – Prince Prospero put it best in The Masque of the Red Death – “Yes, but it’s the kind of jest that he [Satan] would appreciate.” To leave one’s indelible mark on both heart and womb of many a damsel, is to laugh with Genghis on one’s deathbed at the cold biology that rules us all. Perhaps we have a different senses of humor. Plus it gives former lovers something to do in their non-pretty years.
Xsplat, I’ve heard those exact words: “I have an idea. Let’s get married!”
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Seriously, Roissy, wake up and smell the matrix – the precious nest of spicery and cthonian humors from which we all emerge, blindly screaming. Look at the name. It is good to avenge a kinsman. It is good to raise your seed. There is no why to pleasure. No philosopher need justify the heart-swelling pride of the paterfamilias.
You just haven’t figured out how to earn enough to support both lifestyles. Pimping, perhaps?
🙂
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R:
“You can catch a lot of pretend-pious SWPL chicks off guard with this simple line:
“So how are you helping the environment for earth day?”
Try some of the following:
“Isn’t it very natural that Earth day falls on Lenin’s
birthday. He really knew how to control people”
(True if you use the Gregorian date, although
Russia used Julian at the time of his birth).
OR
“My SUV produces enough CO2 to support
three family farms!”
(Actually, that calculation cannot be made withour
a mass of specification, but who cares?)
OR (especially if you live in a temperate climate)
“Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could get some
more global warming? We could grow peanuts in
this area” (or whatever).
This will weed out the enviro-fascists.
Useful if you lean towards a longer relationship
than a one-nighter.
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So apparently “SWPL” and “HBD” means
‘Ooh, we love all our cool insider acronyms, and if you don’t know what it means, tough shit, you’re not in our cool insider clique, so we can’t bother to spend ten seconds answering a simple question.’
High School mentality forever!! Yay!!
Oh wait, maybe it’s playground mentality.
———————
aren’t you embarrassed to whine like a little bitch?
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it never stops you, does it?
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Two kinds of good marriage proposal:
1) couple have known each other a year or less, things have been moving forward steadily, man proposes, woman accepts
2) couple have been together several years, progress not steady, some dissatisfactions and insecurity about long term, woman drops hints, man resolutely ignores until woman proposes explicitly (Roissy’s recommendation here)
Two bad kinds of marriage proposal:
3) Same as 2) except man gets nervous and betafies himself by allowing himself to be maneuvered into proposing.
4) Same as 2) except woman gives ultimatum and man caves (Sidewinder’s cautionary examples)
There’s a BIG difference between 2 (a proposal) and 4 (an ultimatum). It’s about who has the upper hand and needs the relationship more. The correct response to an explicit relationship ultimatum from a woman is “thanks for clearing that up, don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. On the other hand, if she is asking you to marry her while making it clear she will stay with you even if you say no, then you keep the upper hand (though if you do intend to marry her you should still make her sweat for a while before answering).
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[editor: you tease. legacy is an ointment for the open wound of hopelessness that scratches at the soul of everyone who stops to think about mortality for even a second. whether you leave hundreds of descendants or none, your fate is the same: nothing wrapped in less than nothing bathed in the cold dark vacuum of infinite nothingness.]
Death is inherintly unknowable.
You cannot and do not know what lies beyond the veil- until you die. That your consciousness is obliterated, when you die is just a guess, albeit one that is supported by the fact that, as far as we can tell, our consciousness lies entirely within our meatsac brains.
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The kino discussion is interesting. In the usual situation, initiating kino is a good idea for the man, but if the woman has issues or the man is physically scary there is a risk.
With experience one can tell from body language that she is comfortable enough to touch, but the problem novice PUAs have is their intuition is poor and they fail to detect that for some reason this particular encounter has not yet reached that comfort level; they follow the script anyway and come across as creepy. The first comfort checkpoint is an IOI, laughing at something you say, visible bodily relaxation, etc. — kino is OK after this, though if you are still not sure you can either wait 5 minutes or wait for a second indicator.
Also, if a woman touches you, it is *always* intentional and you should feel free to respond in kind.
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Married man here: My wife found my girlfriends eyeliner on our dresser, which my girlfriend had left there “accidently” when wife was out of town. Wife confronted me and asked who it belonged to, to which I calmly replied I had found it in the driveway and brought it in. She accepted it.
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Dalrock,
Good post. “Sometimes Mommies and Daddies stop loving each other” is a horribly scary thing for little kids to process. They will interpret every little annoyance or dispute as a threat that this will happen to their parents too. It really is easier for them to accept that their friend’s mom or dad (or both of them) was mean or bad, because they’re less worried that will happen to their own parents (“stop loving each other” is mysterious to them but they know mommy and daddy are not mean).
It’s very easy for me to imagine cheating, but it’s practically impossible for me to imagine breaking up my family. My wife and I would not regard adultery as justifying divorce and separation (she comes from a broken family herself and is perfectly aware that the damage done to the kids would dwarf any satisfactions to be gained from divorcing — we both put our kids’ well-being first and are incapable of the level of self-deception required to believe that they would not be significantly hurt, even though most divorcers seem to persuade themselves of this).
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Polymath: agree…since I’ve understood the kino concept a few months back, I’ve become much bolder in initiating it.
A few good ones: locking fingers while holding out hand, looking into her eyes and smiling while doing it.
Moving your hand around the back of her neck and just lifting up her hair. That made two jump like an electrical shock ran through them. In one case her earing came off. I promptly put it in my front shirt pocket. She called me naughty. “I am” I smiled.
If she brushes away but still stays with you, then you know it’s ok….maybe you just calibrate with another form at the time.
A girl I’d been gaming for a while has a tattoo on her lower back that she tends to hide.
Each time I see her, I tell her I’ll “get to the bottom” of what that is and make various guesses at what that tattoo is: “A cabbage?”…Lots of IOI’s and laughter. I once rubbed my hand over the lower back to playfully try to lift that hem of her blouse, she jumped….we laughed and continued talking. “I’m getting closer to finding out what it is…” Seems an ongoing flirtation.
Girls I’ve met seem to love kino, it does put them into a kind of “trance”….if done properly and in context.
Never look at your hand while initiating kino.
One thing I haven’t been successful at because it’s usually in public is the “doggie dinner bowl” look that I get which seems to indicate willingness for a kiss. If it’s in a more public setting like a club, bar, or dance, that wouldn’t be cool if other people were looking.
Kino seems to be a kind of secret language between the man and willing woman if done right.
Yes on the IOI’s…a must, she has to be looking at you. Look for the hair brush and look away then look back.
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@ Roissy
You got me, I just wanted to let you know I would suck you dry.
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Cat P,
WTF were you letting your mistress into your own bedroom? Dude, what do you think motels are for?
Good save with the “found it in the driveway” line, but seriously, how can you expect your girlfriend to care about your wife’s feelings? She probably wants to have you all to herself.
Only if she’s got as much to lose as you have (e.g. husband and kids of her own) should you expect discretion from a mistress, and even then it’s risky because unlike you she might actually profit from a divorce.
If I were going to cheat, it would be at least an hour away, and I’d check my clothes, car, briefcase, etc., afterwards for evidence.
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PhillyBoy81
Don’t wait for a girl to touch you first (booooooooooo). If I’m attracted to a guy I get extremely self-conscious and shy, forget touchy feely, I can barely make eye contact. So being bold and making that first move is probably a good idea. BUT if I am around a guy that I’m not attracted to or chatting with girly friends, watch out y’all, because I get super touchy feely (not in a sexual way, just in a super friendly and warm way).
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Here’s a hipster dad who seem to be enjoying fatherhood:
http://www.sweet-juniper.com/
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I agree with Polymath: IOIs before kino are a must. If her body is not turned squarely toward you, or she isn’t making eye contact with you or enthusiastically participating in the conversation, or she hasn’t genuinely laughed at anything you’ve said, you will scare her off and be branded a creeper if you try to touch her in any way.
I don’t think all girls’ kino is “intentional,” at least not in more than a legal sense. Most girls don’t touch a man consciously thinking, “I am going to touch him so he knows I’m interested.” In my own experience, touch seems to happen almost involuntarily if I’m feeling comfortable around a man and find him not unattractive. Usually the touch is on the arm or shoulder; anywhere else feels too intimate and forward. (By comfortable, I mean that I’m not fearing that the man is going to overreact to the touch by concluding that either I’m sooo into him and that’s good – commence makeout, or sooo into him and that’s bad – commence disgust.)
Roissy, maybe you have encountered a lot of situations where the woman is actually into you to the point where she feels she has something to lose by initiating kino (i.e., she is afraid of rejection). In this situation, she may be sending lots of IOIs but won’t cross that final line of touch. I know that I won’t touch a guy if I think he might not react favorably, even if I am otherwise “comfortable” around him.
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I’m going to call shenanigans on the main premise here. Fact is, most guys past the age of 25 want a LTR. Roissy admits a LTR can be great yet implies pump and dump is better. Or that a LTR with pump and dump on the side is best. Or that a woman wants to be in a LTR with a guy who pumps and dumps on the side.
Fact is, most worthy women will dump a guy who they think is cheating on them, not get gina tingles over it.
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embarassingly i only just realised chateau has been posting for the last who knows how long instead of roissy. where’s roissy gone?
you do a great job and i like your articles man
where’s the big dog though?
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xsplat
Ya, I’m puzzled as well. My girlfriends usually propose. At least 80% of them, as a rough guess. I mean, they don’t say “will you marry me”, but they’ll say “you can marry me if you want to”, or I have an idea, let’s get married. I’m not putting that out there as a boast, but because this experience makes it seem strange to me that that dynamic is not common, and that the common is the reverse.
Is it really so?
Ya learn something new every day, I guess.
i agree with this.
in fact, i agree so completely that i cannot imagine a man broaching the topic of marriage first, unless as a pick up attempt / comfort building.
in fact, this commonsense is so strongly burned into my head that i read roissy’s original post as “alternatives such as … are NOT acceptable”
— roissy huh?? what sort of strange bitches -wouldn’t- mention marriage first?
you need to lay off the lawyers, my friend
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http://itsguycode.com/hookup-methods/151-bang-them-while-theyre-vulnerable.html
roissy, I know you will read this. if you have time, please analyze this, because I have a feeling that this is complete bullshit. Ok, not complete, they are bangable while emotionally fucked up, but banging her while friendzoned is like trying to slamdunk while being 3-feet tall.
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Polymath,
Your viewpoint on marriage really makes a lot of sense. It’s kind of how I feel.
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Girls who will touch you first on a fast pickup first time met timeline are likely to sluts. Sluts can be way fun for flings. Just don’t fall for them for more than a fuck buddy, is all I’m saying.
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SWPL does mean literally “stuff white people like”, but that refers to the satirical web site of that name. What the web site does is poke fun at the pretensions of politically correct upper middle class and above white people, and their wannabees. Generally college educated, especially elitish college educated (but archetypally not at the very best where real excellence is paramount, more the PC most chic – Brown is more SWPL than Harvard) colleges, snobs who shop at Whole Foods and drink lattes at Starbucks up the yin yang, and boast red iPods to support the push against AIDs in Africa, cause we really should do more for all those poor dark people. The sorts of white people who worry about non white people all the time, and what can be done to make them closer to equal to white people. (Oh the impossible but noble burden of being so SWPL ….)
That sort of thing.
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What the heck is a “parallel universe proposal”?
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Cat Patrol and Polymath,
I take somewhat the opposite view to you about marriage, but then I’m divorced. Namely, if you’re going to cheat, why stay married? Obviously you’re not getting your needs met, in which case why keep the wife around if she’s not doing her job? You’re going to pay child support, but you would support your kids anyway. In any event, if you were caught cheating the divorce will be way more messy and not in your favor than it otherwise would be. OTOH, if your needs are being met, why cheat? Is a little variety worth it? The rewards of self-control are many. If you have to whine like a bitch to get your wife to lay you, it’s because you have no self-control in the first place. Finally, if you’re going to cheat, go to a hooker. They are paid to keep their mouths shut.
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Good explanation of SWPL, although of course those of us who are ‘insiders’ know it’s the first google result for it.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=swpl
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Schmoe–
This is a truly idiotic Anglosphere feminist entitled woman’s formulation.
I seriously doubt any French woman, Czech or Russian woman, or Colombian or Brazilian woman in her home country, who ask the question of your last sentence to a man.
Actually it’s not idiotic but built in manipulative. It’s only askable in a country where the men take it as axiomatic that there should be no double standards whatsoever as between male and female infidelity. that is not the view in continental
Europe or Latin America or E. Asia, and so on. Certainly not in the case of successful, desirable men.
The answer to the question in the quote above is obvious.
Because men are polygamous and women aren’t. Especially the more alpha a man is the more he’ll want to be polygamous. Or the more successful.
What happens when a man gets a big promotion w/more power and money or better yet some wider status and recognition? He may not think about straying the minute he gets the news or clinches the deal. But it makes him swell and feel more confidant and well, what does he want? New female flesh is part of it, though he may be repressing that. May be.
Women aren’t polygamous but they are hypergamous and serial monogamous when society will let them be w/out consequence and especially if their hubby will have to pay as her indentured servant. Hypergamy unlike polygamy fundamentally involved replacing and discarding hubby. That’s why female infidelity is so dangerous to relationships, and to families if minor children are involved.
Male polygamy doesn’t have to and in fact preferentially doesn’t involve taking on new wives who are just as much supported and have equal or almost equal status. No, that’s a cultural mechanism. The male polygamous instinct is instead best satisfied by having one true partner and then various dalliances.
That’s why. Meanwhile yes she should have to avoid infidelity if she doesn’t want to be cast out of your house leaving your children together behind with you, with no support other than the dowry returned which she brought (or in the modern day earned herself). That’s proper patriarchy for you.
We of course have the exact opposite, and domestic matriarchy as a result. Esp. when the husband has in fact been cast out of the house he’s paying for, and otherwise paying her by state order; her indentured servant.
Note even in strict patriarchy the cast out ex wife doesn’t have to work and send money as an indentured servant to her ex husband.
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Schmoe —
I wasn’t attacking you w/the above btw. I just lifted that oft heard American saying which you repeated.
I get that you’re saying about the folly of being married in America if a man want female diversity cause risking the horrors of divorce theft 2.0.
Not or a whole lot less so w/my kind of prenup. But yeah living together is way better for that.
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Schmoe, do you really wonder why people cheat? If so, it seems you suffer from a lack of imagination.
It may be that the human condition is not homogenous. Some of us may crave both the stable family bonds and tight lifelong bonding that marriage affords, while also craving and enjoying sex with a variety of beautiful young women.
Is that so inconceivable?
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Bravo Sidewinder
No woman respects a man who CAN be dragged to the altar kicking and screaming. If men don’t won’t to get married please DON’T but if you do, start your marriage off on the right foot by being a man and proposing.
And if you think cheating on her while your married to her is going to make her giney tingle and keep her in line, think again. Carefully chosen, truly good women in 1.0 marriages find a husband’s polygamy a very wet blanket. If you’re not ready to commit to mongamy, do society a favor and stay single.
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“Cat Patrol and Polymath,
I take somewhat the opposite view to you about marriage, but then I’m divorced. Namely, if you’re going to cheat, why stay married? Obviously you’re not getting your needs met, in which case why keep the wife around if she’s not doing her job? You’re going to pay child support, but you would support your kids anyway. In any event, if you were caught cheating the divorce will be way more messy and not in your favor than it otherwise would be. OTOH, if your needs are being met, why cheat? Is a little variety worth it? The rewards of self-control are many. If you have to whine like a bitch to get your wife to lay you, it’s because you have no self-control in the first place. Finally, if you’re going to cheat, go to a hooker. They are paid to keep their mouths shut.”
I’m 45 and been married 15 years. If I get divorced, I will lose my house, lose half my retirement, pay child support, pay alimony. It will set me back at least 10 years financially. I will have to pay several tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer and court costs. I’ll have to go live in a crappy apartment until I get back on my feet. In short, I will lose most everything I’ve worked for in my adult life.
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I’m 45 and been married 15 years. If I get divorced, I will lose my house, lose half my retirement, pay child support, pay alimony. It will set me back at least 10 years financially. I will have to pay several tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer and court costs. I’ll have to go live in a crappy apartment until I get back on my feet. In short, I will lose most everything I’ve worked for in my adult life.
See how unwise it was to get married in America?
It’s unwise to subject yourself to child support 2.0 as well but unlike with sex and female loving companionship there are no alternatives there if you want to live in America.
You should be able to get child custody of course if you’re the higher earner, or at worst there should be true joint physical custody with no “child support” payments but instead direct supporting of the child by each parent.
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And if you think cheating on her while your married to her is going to make her giney tingle and keep her in line, think again.
It should be by agreement before agreeing to have a child together while cohabiting, rather by cheating. With her having a veto over any particular woman, least that turn into more than just sex and affection from him. As well he can’t neglect her sexually or otherwise or she can and should veto.
but maybe American men should just not only go on marriage strike but also fathering kids strike. Vasectomies left and right. Hey they’re usually reversible if done right to start with. If the laws should reverse under the buckling pressure of this quickly growing male strike.
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E
Just find a dumb bimbo (who is unlikely to make you pay child support) and get her preggers by fucking her raw dawgy.
Good luck with that. Esp. if you make any significant money at all, or can be found in the above ground economy.
Assuming the later, the only way is to cuckold a kid into another man’s wife. Unfortunately.
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Nice to see some readers helpfully defining SWPL & HBD.
(Like the guys who wrote, I didn’t know either)
Seems like ‘Chateau’ might’ve bothered to explain it himself.
I’m puzzled as to why a guy so invested in running a website would ignore an opportunity to cultivate new readers.
Is being helpful and welcoming just not ‘badass’ enough?
Is posturing like a badass his top priority?
I would have thought anyone putting actively updating a blog would want as many readers as possible, rather than being content with the number of readers he already has.
Is it considered ‘alpha’ to be complacent?
Obviously self-defeating choices tend to puzzle me.
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random reader,
Roissy/Chateau is not pimping for hits. He has made it moderately easy for those with a significant amount of interest to find his web page, secure in the knowledge that word-of-blog is sufficient to draw the level of discussion and feedback he cares about, while he eludes idiots, spammers, and ordinary trolls (although the site has acquired and tolerates one unusually bizarre and creative troll).
Not all blogs are commercially motivated.
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Are you kidding anonymous? Can’t you see how hard he’s trying to reengage with readers after the disastrous rebrand? I can’t recall him ever being so prolific in the comments section.
[editor: you obviously are new here. During the first year of the blog i was much more prolific in the comments than i am now. my commenting inspiration comes and goes. i might go a few months without even bothering to read a comment, then spend a couple days diving in headfirst, usually with a few drinks in me.]
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Men who practice the more extreme forms of game make me sad…do you think Roissy/Booksformen is going to keep you company when YOU hit the wall and no one is interested in you? Even you will hit the wall eventually…everyone does unless they die first.
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Anonymous-no self respecting woman would agree to that arrangement…but then again most of the guys here have no interest in a woman who respects herself.
By self-respecting I’m not talking about feminism btw, just a woman who doesn’t hop on the carousel of ^%$& because she knows it detracts from her worth, on a lot of levels. If she keeps herself clean for you, she’s not going to appreciate it if you make a habit of cheating on her.
So, to be logical…assuming a guy wants to marry…..assuming he wants a good wife who won’t cheat….a wife like this has not been riding the carousel…she has self contol….she cares enough about herself to not get on said carousel….why in the world would she marry someone who won’t promise fidelity? That’s the whole purpose of marriage isn’t it? Everyone is publicly and legally declaring that this is the person they want to “be with” for the rest of their lives.
In my opinion, the type of deal you are suggesting is the same as gay men thinking they are “marrying”. They may call it marriage but it’s not and it never will be.
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White Woman–
Of course it isn’t.
What an Anglosphere first wave feminist narrow world view you have.
The vast majority of the world’s cultures have permitted polygamy (but only a tiny number of no account ones have permitted polyandry).
Almost all of the world’s cultures including European ones have winked at successful attractive male infidelity in marriage, so long as he’s a good provider and father and esp. if he’s discreet and doesn’t neglect his wife. Not so female infidelity w/rare aristos in decadant times exceptions involved arrange family merging of fortunes, where the woman brought much land wealth which she could take away with herself on a marital dissolutioon.
The purpose of marriage is to to provide a stable two parent environment in which to raise children and to serve as the nucleus for wider family ties. Duhhhhhh.
Female infidelity very usually breaks her own bonds of affection for her husband and usually all desire on her part to continue having sex with him. Discreet, very occasional well into the marriage male infidelity does none of that the vast majority of the time and can be constrained so it doesn’t. It’s largely a problem if handled right due to ideologically stoked rather than damped jealous of first wave feminist, where it’s automatically an affront to “any self respecting woman’s” self respect.
Hogwash.
I have such an understanding right now with my living w/me beautiful young girlfriends. I haven’t much exercised it, a little, but it’s there. Yeah she gets jealous but in ways that can be good, and which I gentle and reassure – and take advantage of.
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Philly, shut up! You’re just arguing for the sake of it. Do your thing, and Roissy does his (but only better).
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White Woman–
No of course that’s not the whole or the main purpose of marriage.
The main purpose of marriage is to bear and raise children in a family centered on the man and woman who are the kids parents, who hopefully love each other and form a partnership that lasts at least long enough to raise those children to maturity. Which in our society means 18.
The other parts are far for socially optional and variable. In our society that the parents stay together through the kid’s minority has become feminist created female optional. When minor kids are at home, men rarely initiate divorce.
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Uh-oh, is liking (single picture) cartoons the same thing as liking comic books?
Pupu likes cartoons, a whole lot.
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“PhillyBoy81
Don’t wait for a girl to touch you first (booooooooooo). If I’m attracted to a guy I get extremely self-conscious and shy, forget touchy feely, I can barely make eye contact. So being bold and making that first move is probably a good idea. BUT if I am around a guy that I’m not attracted to or chatting with girly friends, watch out y’all, because I get super touchy feely (not in a sexual way, just in a super friendly and warm way).”
“Making the first move” does not always equal “touching.” It could be a guy spotting you across the room, making eye contact, walking across the room, introducing himself to you AND your clique of hater girlfriends, and then charming you and your whole entire crew. IMO, that’s the best way to do it, since most guys are too fearful to approach girls in groups and don’t like entertaining conversation with more than one person at a time.
If a guy does all of the above, there is no girl on the planet who would say “I wouldn’t go out with him because he wasn’t forward enough.” That’s silly.
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“Philly, shut up! You’re just arguing for the sake of it. Do your thing, and Roissy does his (but only better).”
Do I sense a man crush, C-Dub?
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My mother proposed to my father. She was nineteen. He was thirty four.
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