For those who are interested in a syncretism of competing sex ratio theories (an elite audience, I’m sure), Jason Malloy sent me an email responding to my ‘Sausage Fest‘ post, and responding indirectly to Peter Frost whose quote I used in that post:
Hey, I just came across your sex ratio post from several weeks ago. I’m surprised I missed it at the time, because I read fairly often.
Just to clarify a few issues:
A common misunderstanding which I kept addressing on Dr. Frost’s blog was that I was claiming that women have some absolute preference for Dads over Cads. This was not my argument. My argument was that: “Females are never as promiscuous as men (as a group) prefer, therefore when male scarcity puts females at a sexual market disadvantage, females give in to male sexual pressures more easily.” And this innate differential preference is the ultimate basis for sex ratio dynamics.
Peter Frost’s claim that I “ignored” some crucial wisdom from Guttentag & Secord isn’t true. I left numerous comments on his blog explaining to him why Guttentag & Secord’s social constructivist understandings about sex differences were wrong. Frost is suggesting that, sans social pressures, women are just as oriented towards low investment mating as men. This is wrong. Sex ratio dynamics are based on biological differences between men and women, not on gender politics. The wider society will likely never be as libertarian towards women’s sexuality as a college campus, but even there we see that more women = more male “misbehavior”; because even on college campuses men want lower investment sex than women: “Think of it as a game of chicken that men will always win. In an environment where women are ok with one night stands, men will push for the glory hole.”
I realize your primary interest is in how gender dynamics shift with male quality, but on this issue I don’t think I’m missing much. e.g. The number of top quality males increases on a male-biased campus, but female promiscuity still decreases. There are, no doubt, many hidden dynamics to sex ratio, but they don’t seem to monkey wrench the general predictions.
Jason
Sounds intuitively correct to me. What I’ve witnessed in social venues where the sex ratio is skewed in favor of women: when men outnumber women, the women set the terms of the courtship, and this is true regardless of the number of alpha males in attendance. They flit about soaking in the attention of all the male suitors, act bitchier, and play harder to get. Shit tests are locked at maximum deflection. The men are more animated and become agitated toward the end of the night, which sometimes spills over into (literally) pushing and shoving the male competition aside, and getting blotto once they realize the odds will not work in their favor.
Of course, more alpha males is always better than fewer alpha males from a woman’s perspective, because alpha male attention is almost as good as alpha male sex (though not as good as alpha male love). In fact, for most women, alpha male attention is better than beta male sex and love. So while women may be less promiscuous in male-skewed environments, they are going home happier in their chasteness if the male attention they lapped up came from higher quality men.
In contrast, those heavenly times when the women outnumbered the men, pickup up could not not have been easier. I sometimes had women approach me.
It’s like shopping for a TV in a store that has an abundance of TV choice. You might very well walk out of there empty-handed because you figure you can afford to take your time deciding which brand best suits you, and that there are so many brands there’s bound to be an even better value in there next week.
The part where sex ratio dynamics gets interesting is what influence it has on rates of male violence. As I mentioned in my previous post on this subject, when I’ve been in bars that skewed male the drunkenness and rowdiness hit a fever pitch. Male friendships temporarily sundered when a target was in sight: hos before bros. It’s sad watching a bunch of angry dudes squabble over the few remaining fat chicks at garbage hour. I suppose it helps in sex ratio discussions to define what we mean by male “misbehavior”. Maybe it should be divided into two categories: male violence and male caddishness. They overlap, but they aren’t synonymous. This accounts for the observation in some contexts that more men = more male agitation but not more male caddishness, whereas more women = more male caddishness but less silverback posturing and fighting over the abundance of women.
A lot of what I write about on this diaryetic outpost is based on personal experience, and only second-hand do the forces of science get summoned when I feel like putting in the extra work to buttress my steely-eyed observations of reality. If you want (mostly) hard science and bursts of numerical flavor, GNXP is a good place to go.
In general, I find that about 80% of what I observe in real life is eventually corroborated by scientific evidence. The remaining 20% left with question marks can be explained either by experiences peculiar to some subset of my life circumstances, or idiosyncratic personal observations insufficiently examined by science. My belief is that most people go through life lying to others, and to a lesser extent to themselves, about 90% of the nature of reality. Everything from the finality of death, to the horrors of aging, to the pitiless churning of the sexual market, to the true costs and benefits of human diversity is sheathed in a velvet scabbard of pretty lies. Pessimists would argue the excalibur of truth-examination is best left sheathed, for some truths bring nothing but distress. Optimists would argue the sword is a figment of negative minds, a weapon of the haves to dispirit the have-nots. Chaotics such as yours truly revel in the paroxysms the unsheathing of the sword causes those who stumble into the id monster’s lair.
It is possible to make it to the endgame having avoided the worst travails while refusing to acknowledge 90% of reality, as long as you don’t act in accordance with your stated beliefs. For example, a fat woman looking for love may console herself without consequence that it’s what’s on the inside that counts as long as she pays the lie to her beliefs by dieting and exercising. Her hypocrisy, from her point of view, is win-win — her psyche is soothed by her lies while her love life is invigorated by her sexier body. Similarly, a single mom anxious for love can tell herself she is choosier than her single female counterparts without bastard baggage, but when the quality of suitors willing to commit to her and her child by another man predictably degrades she will ignore her little lies and act like a woman with fewer options, smartly offering more concessions in the zero-sum race to settle for Mr. Better Than Nothing. If, however, she insists on living by her lies she will likely spend the rest of her dreary years half-nourished by a child’s love instead of fully nourished by the added romantic love of a male partner.
Despite evidence of hypocrites acting in ways contrary to their lies and in accordance with the reality of the mating market, in the double helical arena of all against all, it is those who acknowledge more of reality who will win out over those who acknowledge less of reality. Hypocrisy costs mental energy, and when incentivized enough and fully internalized can lead to bad decisions. The few who can look the chaos in the eye and not flinch will best those whose ego-assuaging lies act to divert them from the path of personal happiness. A downwardly spiraling feedback loop can result when hypocrisy is allowed to run rampant, as one bad decision after another coaxes ever more contorted pretty lies to stave off the chilling self-realization that creeps up in the deep black of night when solitude enshrouds.
There is one truth that will always be heard. The shiver down the back of your neck late at night never lies.

This dialogue is just brilliant.
It describes fundamental dynamics just as the work, I think from my experience. Great expositions by both Jason Malloy (who I quoted and cited when challenged on the almost certainly weighty genetic component of enduring black/white IQ differences on the “Sedition” recent thread) and Roissy.
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It’s always good fun to observe Citizen Renegade in his own sanctimonious self-delusion of lies, half-truths, suppression of biologic topics, and tautologic sophistry.
[editor: how’s that dusty vagina holding up?]
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1rd
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I think there is an additional factor that needs to be considered on this topic. and that is that women place a higher value on obtaining the bird in the hand, (securing a relationship.) Men, on the other hand, as a rule, will not select below their threshold requirements of attraction, and will gun for a 10 in the bush before they settle for something that they are not physically attracted to. This usually helps men, especially betas, when it comes down to garbage hour and the girl still doesn’t have “a date for the prom.”
But this dynamic can hurt greater betas/lesser alphas. Where a girl has a beta relationship as a given, then I agree with Roissy, they will value alpha attention and alpha sex above it. However, where they do not have a relationship secured, I have seen women ignore caddish lesser alphas in order to secure or maintain a solid love relationship with a beta. With women in this boat, authenticity game is vital for the alpha, IMO. I think in all of these discussions, it needs to be remembered that women are hardwired to seek the love relationship above any short term success (attention, sex) with higher-rated men. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.
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Good stuff. The last four paragraphs may be the best I’ve read on this site so far.
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Roissy used the term “Chaotics”.
I’ve never heard that word outside the context of D&D. It’s odd – I’d never had Roissy down as a D&D player. But his true face is revealed! He is a geek!
it is those who acknowledge more of reality who will win out over those who acknowledge less of reality
It took me years to cleanse my mind of the junk put in it by the education system and their feminist overladies.
It was a gradual process, sometimes painful. Bit by bit I started to incorporate elements of ‘game’ into my conversations with women. I won’t call it a ‘pick up routine’, because there was no routine, but I knew that certain things would really improve the conversation and my chances of getting into the knickers of more women.
I worked out that steering the conversation towards sex and using what game-meisters call the ‘neg’ were particularly effective.
Often guys I would hit the bars with were a nightmare. They, trapped by feminist brainwashing, would blush with embarrassment as I used these fun conversational tools and would do things that would effectively cockblock me. I only forgive them, because they knew not what they were doing. None the less, I got the girls and they went home to their fists. These guys still haven’t got a clue, and a couple of them pay regularly for sex.
I was edging bit by bit towards the light. One day though, epiphany struck, I realised that the whole of feminism was rubbish. Indeed, almost all the ethical and moral values that I had been taught by a corrupt and flawed educational system were rubbish. Since that time, my relationships with women, both sexual and non-sexual, have improved immeasurably. Since that time, the world, which was once a messy confusion, shrouded in the mist of illusion, has become one of logic and clarity.
I’ve tried to edge some of my friends to this truth, because I can see that they are burning with anger by the perceived slights that they’ve had from women or are lost in despair by their inability to get into a woman’s knickers. All my attempts to steer them towards the light have fallen on barren ground, however. Their minds remain trapped in the cage of pretty lies spread by the minions of the feminazis: the mainstream media.
There is a shroud of bullshit. It has had a few rose petals thrown over it to hide its colour and has been subject to a couple of puffs of “Obsession by Calvin Klein” to mask its odour. Roissy is doing social good by picking away at it and it is hugely entertaining to watch the reaction of the deluded as its stench reaches their nostrils.
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Accepting the truth would require us to take personal responsibly for our actions, mistakes, and lives.
The beta male claims that game doesn’t work because recognizing that game does work would mean that the beta’s pathetic “life” is his own fault.
The fatty claims that dieting doesn’t work because it absolves the fatty of responsibility.
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sicker than sick
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I think now I understand why you’re such a player, Roissy, even though you know how to work a women like a watch, and even though that must kill a good deal of the appeal of romance(as I think you alluded in your April 1 post), but what else does a nihilist have to live for? Not that I disagree with your outlook, however. Great writing.
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“No, I’m not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain’t shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist.” – Justin’s Dad
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Mike
A successful in life higher beta’s life is not pathetic at all. They in fact are often the most valuable members of societies and certainly it’s non grunt work bedrock. Most middle level execs, doctors, lawyers, inventors, scientists etc. who are also quite good socially are higher betas. I’m not talking about asocial geeks who are lower betas in sex appeal, or even higher omegas even, depending on how good (not so good) in school etc.
Higher betas are the ones that society should most care about getting disillusioned with the current huge tilting of the slut and semi slut parade of American urban girls all through their 20s in favor of alphas or one kind or another, if they can swing that for casual or kidding themselves relationship hunting as 6’s and up.
Higher betas used to get some of the prettiest girls, and get them as virgins or in the transitional first half of the 20th century in America near virgins, un ruined for pair bonding by having ridden the alpha cock hunting carousel for well over a decade.
Now when these higher beta men do get the 7 girl (higher beta among females) settling for a good or very good money dad type with some manliness to him as well (higher betas), she’s likely to divorce him 2 kids and 5 married years later (6 relationship years). She’ll be extracting huge and ongoing American feminist divorce theft from him, to live heavily off him while she rejoins the casual sex cock carousel (though at a lesser level, but she’ll kid herself). That is as she hunts probably fruitlessly for the alphas she wistfully remembered when contemplating divorce. But she has hypergamous hopes and is anyway serially monogamous since she has totally free reign on the back of her ex husband’s child support=including stealth alimony paying indentured servitude.
That’s what’s so socially corrosive, not the difficulty in lower betas and omegas in getting casual sex or much of any sex until / if they become financially successful and married.
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Teen pregnancy rates are the most beautiful evidence for girls putting out more easily when there are less males:
http://ccr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/34/1/26
Men are so worthless that more women get pregnant when there are less men around to impregnate them. That really puts it into perspective what a piece of shit a man is in terms of sexual market value.
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“For example, a fat woman looking for love may console herself without consequence that it’s what’s on the inside that counts as long as she pays the lie to her beliefs by dieting and exercising. Her hypocrisy, from her point of view, is win-win — her psyche is soothed by her lies while her love life is invigorated by her sexier body. ”
I used to tell my college girlfriend, “Babe, I’d still love you if you got fat… but don’t get fat.”
Good to keep a hot chick off balance.
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>”What I’ve witnessed in social venues where the sex ratio is skewed in favor of women: when men outnumber women, the women set the terms of the courtship, and this is true regardless of the number of alpha males in attendance. They flit about soaking in the attention of all the male suitors, act bitchier, and play harder to get.”
Yes, this is in complete agreement with what I’ve witnessed in NYC. What might be called alpha males–from observation, not knowledge–will get hit on by multiple good looking women, almost as if queueing-up one-at-a-time to take their turns, then the alpha male returns to the one he prefers, as she loiters awaiting the final decision.
The other behavior is for the good looking women to spend the evening “interviewing” many men, always looking to “upgrade” their suitor before the night ends. And in this scenario, the men usually sabbotage their efforts with beta behavior–they all buy the women drinks, believing their generosity is enticing to the women. So the men raise the cost of their meager efforts without assuring any success. In the end, the women get free drinks, and the men go home with empty wallets, in addition to empty-handed.
Solo, stand-offish, stoic is my game in this environment–while the hit rate is low, the succes rate is higher–and I don’t waste money on girls who are teasing and window shopping.
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I will add another example to the fold. I work in a very male dominated field. There is currently only one woman in a department of about 30, and this is representative of the industry as a whole.
At our industry networking functions and affiliated boozeathons, there are SO FEW women, that the guys don’t even notice them. They merely focus on themselves, which leads to more cordial and supportive relations – akin to a men’s club.
It’s almost like the ratio hits a tipping point where competition for very finite resources simply isn’t worth it, and cooperation yields more. When being collectively ignored by a large majority of eligible suitors, these women can’t afford to act bitchy, and shit test anything that looks in their direction. They sharpen their proverbial eyeliner pencils, become more outgoing, friendly and exhibit more signs of sexual availability.
Further proof that aloofness and casually ignoring the queen bees gets the honey.
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i do think there is something after death.
i am not an atheist- this doesn’t mean that i believe that moses and noah are to be taken literally- or that there is a biblical heaven.
but i do think the universe was created by someone.
and i do think there is some type of spirit encased in the flesh.
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It’s not the number of males but the number of DESIRABLE males. Men who are below the attractiveness threshold of women don’t count. So even if there are a lot of males, if women’s demands raise, there will be a scarcity of males.
This is what happened the last decades. Women don’t need men to have children or for economical support anymore. So women’s standard for men have raised: a beta provider is not enough, now you also have to produce a steady supply of gina tingles. Given the female hypergamy, this is only achieved by 20% of men.
As I wrote elsewhere:
Having lived in several societies, I think that there are two factors to be taken into account.
1. Percentage of desirable men
2. Women’s cultural attitude.
As for the first one, it has to be said that the percentage of desirable men is product of two factors: number of men and average expectations by women (women’s demands, women’s standards).
As for the second one, there is two women’s cultural attitudes. In traditional attitude, women are trained to be good wives and mothers, their sexuality is tamed and are taught to be “good girls” and follow ethical considerations. In modern attitudes, women are taught to follow their hearts and have fun.
So there are four possible combinations.
1. High percentage of desirable males with a traditional attitude by women. This leads to traditional monogamy. Most women get married and stay married. The 50′s, if you will. It was the model in my native Spain where I was born.
2. Low percentage of desirable males with a traditional attitude by women. This leads to traditional adultery. Most men are married and have mistresses to absorb the excess of females. Mistresses would like to be married but they get what they can. This is the model in Central America now, where I live.
3. High percentage of desirable males with a modern attitude by women. This leads to serial monogamy. Women have relationships that end where the novelty wears off (about 4-7 years, according to the traditional female cycle). This could be the model prevalent in older American women. Older American women have lower expectations about men than younger ones (in part, because of maturity, in part, because they receive alimony and child support so poor males are not undesirable anymore). This way the percentage of desirable males increases.
4. Low percentage of desirable males with a modern attitude by women. This leads to poliginy. Some alphas have harems, some betas are celibates. The 20% of men mate with the 80% of women. This is the model in younger American women, with their unrealistic expectations from men.
So, as you see, the important thing is not the number of men but the number of desirable men. The American culture has changed from a traditional attitude for women and realistic expectations of men to a modern attitude for women and unrealistic expectations for men.
That is, it has changed from the combination 1 to the combination 4, from monogamy to poliginy.
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[…] here: Sex Ratio, Redux « Citizen Renegade Categories : sex […]
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EastPole, correct observation, but you sort of putting Game on it’s head. This is what women want betas to do. Keep to themselves, don’t hit on them. And I suspect they see right through your shtick, you’re not not hitting on them because you aloof, rather because you’re certain there’s no chance/it’s not worth it.
The whole Mystery thing is to get in under radar and demonstrate high enough rank. For practical purposes, though, if you’re decent enough guy of not too discriminating tastes, I think it’s much easier to just go semi-direct and screen with it, escalate fast and play numbers. Which is sort of the opposite of “aloofness” but whatever works. Remember, they (well, their lizard-brain attraction modules) are like children. You can hit on them, but still if you project bit of a annoyed jerk attitude, you’ll be aloof enough 🙂 And whatever you do, as was mentioned by our host earlier, don’t take them seriously.
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Never do sausage parties. Upon walking into the midst of a swashbuckling sword fight, I will immediately turn on my heel and leave, do not pass ‘go’, do not collect $200.
I’ve also noticed that there tends to be a much higher beta/alpha ratio in male dominated venues.
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sounds like you are trying too hard
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Along the same lines as EastPole, I’ll offer an example but with a different outcome. I too work in a male dominated field. The new batch of grad students included one cute girl who thought her shit didn’t stink. I took her out once and treated her like shit, thinking I was doing a service for my fellow man. Her ego bubble popped and she was friendly for about a week or so. But the first year male graduate students couldn’t help themselves from laying their testicles down for her to walk without sullying her feet. Now she’s even more full of herself.
There has to be some way to keep the betas from pumping up these gigantic egos.
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Similarly, a single mom anxious for love can tell herself she is choosier than her single female counterparts without bastard baggage, but when the quality of suitors willing to commit to her and her child by another man predictably degrades she will ignore her little lies and act like a woman with fewer options, smartly offering more concessions in the zero-sum race to settle for Mr. Better Than Nothing.
I stumbled across a good example of this a few days ago.
http://viewfromwitsend.wordpress.com/
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probably not; short of giving all the dudes an introductory seminar on game. even then, it wouldn’t take for most of them.
ironically, you may have only made things worse. you took her out and treated her like shit, which probably made all the other herbs look that much more beta. and that probably solidified her opinion of herself as above them.
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off topic….
Beta of the Decade!
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36770649/ns/today-entertainment/?gt1=43001
‘Kick-Ass’ star, 19, engaged to 43-year-old
She’s already a mom of two, and is expecting a baby with teen actor
If I’m a 19 year old movie star the first thing I want to do is get old broads pregnant and play step father to kids to who are close to my age…fuck that!!!
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It is hard to get anything meaningful accomplished until you truthfully acknowledge who you are and what you want. I actually think that this may be the reason why so many of my friends (single, married, whatever) are unhappy. And genuine alpha males are a rare species by the way. Thank god I am not in dating market these days.
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@ TG
What’s really incredible is how many women will read it and completely lose perspective on reality—thinking they’ll be able to wait around until their mid-40s to finally snag Mr. Alpha.
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Every time I read one of Roissy’s posts along these lines, I think of Nietzsche’s statement that the great courage and genius of the Greeks lay in the fact that they confronted the chaos and meaninglessness of the world around them and, even in the face of the void, still strived for excellence and beauty. Perhaps that is the best we can hope for.
Incidentally, Roissy, if you enjoy book suggestions, here’s one that I think you would love:
http://www.amazon.com/Pugilist-at-Rest-Stories/dp/0316473049/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272310527&sr=8-1
The title story in particular is about as good as modern short fiction gets these days.
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margaret
True, but could you define “genuine alpha”?
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Garbage hour! Perfect. As a friend once told me when I was in the service, if you haven’t found anything by midnight, go home. At least you’ll get a good night’s sleep.
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@poli, this year I have gotten half my lays from making afterparties happen (meeting her after closing hours). I did have social proof both times tough, it might be true for cold approaching.
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“In fact, for most women, alpha male attention is better than beta male sex and love.”
this anecdote illustrates the tendency in a dramatic fashion:
a 15 years old cute girl who wasn’t part of the In crowd and who had a fling with a popular football player was relentlessly harrassed by a gang of jealous average looking girls. She ended up killing herself. (You can see what the she-bullies look like in the ABC report below.) We’re talking about a high school in a decent neighborhood so presumably the M/F ratio is about 50/50.
overview:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/29/2010-03-29_phoebe_prince_south_hadley_high_schools_new_girl_driven_to_suicide_by_teenage_cy.html
Students said Phoebe was called “Irish slut” and “whore” on Twitter, Craigslist, Facebook and Formspring. Her books were routinely knocked out of her hands, items were flung at her, her face was scribbled out of photographs on the school walls, and threatening text messages were sent to her cell phone.
Scheibel said she had drawn the ire of the “Mean Girls” by briefly dating a popular senior football player in her first freshman weeks at the school. One student later said it felt like the whole school ganged up on her.
another article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/30/2010-03-30_mom_of_teen_charged_with_bullying_south_hadley_hs_student_phoebe_prince_into_sui.html
The district attorney called the failure of adults at the school to stop the harassment “troublesome,” but not criminal. “We sought the charges that we feel were most appropriate for these activities,” Scheibel said. She said school officials had “a lack of understanding of harassment associated with teen dating relationships.”
2 minutes video from ABC News:
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/ashley_longe_flannery_mullins.html
in which you can see photos of the 3 girls accused: one looks kind of fat and half-chinese, one is a latinette with braces and the third just looks average. My guess is that the football players weren’t paying attention to them despite their efforts.
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“If, however, she insists on living by her lies she will likely spend the rest of her dreary years half-nourished by a child’s love instead of fully nourished by the added romantic love of a male partner.”
There is truth to this. A child is a poor substitute for adult male companionship. Also, leaving too heavily on your child to keep yourself from being lonely is doing them a disservice.
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Roissy-
Lets say I’m completely honest with myself (as best I can be), and do not deny my flaws or failings. How do I rise above this self awareness? Would it have been better to have possessed self-delusion in order to have been afforded self contentment, even at the expense of not reaching my full potential (since being aware of one’s weaknesses is needed to circumvent or surmount those weaknesses)?
I probably don’t need to ask, but do you view intelligence as a burden to the soul?
I have embraced darkness as much as I can without allowing myself to become evil. I prayed to the void, and ironically discovered everything else, but I fear it is not enough to satisfy my human nature, this awareness, even the connectedness.
Is revenge necessary for peace of mind, even against those who simply acted in accordance with their own biochemical nature?
No need to answer. Contentment is the curse of stagnation. I must continue to move forward.
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it is those who acknowledge more of reality who will win out over those who acknowledge less of reality. Hypocrisy costs mental energy, and when incentivized enough and fully internalized can lead to bad decisions. The few who can look the chaos in the eye and not flinch will best those whose ego-assuaging lies act to divert them from the path of personal happiness. A downwardly spiraling feedback loop can result when hypocrisy is allowed to run rampant, as one bad decision after another coaxes ever more contorted pretty lies to stave off the chilling self-realization that creeps up in the deep black of night when solitude enshrouds
I don’t know about this. Sometimes one gets a bit fed up at staring down chaos (chaos, of course, being chaos, never gets fed up staring back). It would be nice, if flashes of chilling self-realization were confined to the early hours, rather than continuing on a 60 second or so basis hroughout the entire of every 24 hour period.
Although I’ve never been able to manage it myself, I often think it may be preferable to live happily in foolishness than sadly in full knowledge and belief in the mendacity of the human race. I think Scott Fitzgerald said something about this once too.
Nonetheless, for those of us looking, probably against our best interests, for full knowledge and belief, this site certainly doesn’t shirk at providing it.
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This is too much evaluation into a simple social phenomenon..
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Agree with others, this post is a little too “deep” with respect to explaining something as simple as sex ratios.
I have a feeling that Jason Malloy would break out differential equations when explaining a phenomenon as simple as: women tend to like shopping more than men.
Bottom line:
If you want an easy pickup, then go to venues where there are more women than men, and avoid venues that are “sausage fests.”
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I believe this phenomenon has been succinctly addressed before:
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Brad, good idea recommending that book of short stories ‘The Pugilist at Rest’ by Thom Jones. Great writing.
His second book of ss is good too: Cold Snap.
Both probably available at a public library.
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The question that has not been addressed is whether or not it is possible to live, with true honesty, for even for one second in the cold hard vacuum of existential nothingness. Awareness is real enough. But of what, exactly? A
Shall we say that true enlightenment is the awareness of absolute aloneness coupled with the certain knowledge that all previous sensations of connectedness were merely the kind of feelings one has before the batteries of ones youthful illusions finally grow dim and dimmer, until the last flicker goes out foe all eternity? – like someone with a brainstem infarct?
Tick Tock. Tick Tock…
I don’t think so. No one lives as if they really thought this way. And that, imho, limits the range of valid philosophical destinations.
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Rum–
The questions you ask are potentially attacking as meaningless the basic human instincts for survival, sex, companionship, child rearing (esp in women) etc., and therefore taking realism too far.
Realism should be used to escape what is limiting you, certainly if it doesn’t involve unfairly harming others, as opposed to out competing them. It should be used to frame you thoughts instead of an ideology.
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How does this square with Roissy’s endorsement of Irrational Confidence?
[editor: that’s why it’s irrational.]
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Doug1
Once the dogs of nihilism have slipped their leash, it can be tricky to restrain them afterwards.
In your post above, you used the word “should” twice and admonished once me for taking this too far. This does not fit very well into a voidistic universe.
And what, pray tell, is the difference between having an ideology and having a way to frame ones thoughts? I do mean to be snarky, I just do not see a difference..
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roissy is good at diagnosing and prescribing certain actions wrt to male/female relations. what roissy is not is a philosophical guide to how you live your life . nihilism, really ?
that’s something you grow out of as a 2nd year philosophy student, not a worldview that you seriously invest your life in. there are so many logical/philosophical problems wrt nihilism that it would be quite impossible to discuss all of it here.
there is not one scholar of note working today that advocates nihilism as a viable philosophical stance. that nihilism is interesting, and intellectually “fun”, sure, but nothing more. plus, roissy advocates nihilism because of his conduct with regards to women; he needs to be morally void to do what he does. so in a sense, there is value in that.
but do you guys actually think that roissy holds the golden keys to ” the real”. hahaha. read real scholars folks. lets stick to the nuts and bolts of how to deal with women. leave the 4th rate nietzchisms to 19 year olds who just discovered “beyond good and evil”.
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@nothanks,
This isn’t nihilism; this is liberation, if you look closely. Check out this link:
http://www.welmer.org/2008/04/30/mens-liberation/
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It is wrong to ask our purpose of existence .. for the very idea of purpose is a human construct .. the universe never said that it will be analyzable through human constructs … this applies to women as well .. ok you got a peek under the hood .. maybe you can even work it .. but the fact is .. you were never meant to look too closely into it in the first place .. much of life is an illusion anyways .. you have to enjoy life in moderation .. pace yourself for the road is really finite ..
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Mother of Perdix: “Although I’ve never been able to manage it myself, I often think it may be preferable to live happily in foolishness than sadly in full knowledge and belief in the mendacity of the human race.”
I’ve always liked the attitiude expressed by Soundgarden in
Fresh Tendrils:
“Give me little bits of
more than I can take
If it sits upon your tongue
or naked in your eye
give me little bits of
more than I can try
then throw yourself away”
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finsalscollons,
impressive analysis.
TG,
agree, that marriage will not last — in a few years Hit Girl will be legal. But in Kick-Ass’s defense, once he screwed up and got her pregnant, it sucks to leave your kid to be raised by a single mom. If I were him I would have an explicit pre-nup saying “once your reproductive years are over, I’m free to sleep around.”
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So an increase in the number of men leads to lower violence instead of a clockwork orange as seen in the case of European countries.
Another conventional wisdom refuted by reality.
However, how does it work in not so civilised societies?
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If you haven’t read Tim Harford’s The Logic of Life, get a copy. In a chapter called “The Marriage Supermarket,” he details both theoretical models of how sexual competition works and data (chiefly from speed dating) about these dynamics work in the real world.
One interesting statistic: women will reject approximately 90% of men in speed dating situations and men will reject about 80% of women, regardless of who is in the pool. Researchers manipulate this by having, say, all the men be relatively short one night and all relatively tall the next. The percentages hold steady, which indicates that our values change based on circumstances rather than being absolute.
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the challenge is to see the truth, but avoid arbitrary negative spin. see the ugly truths, but don’t dwell on them and empower them unnecessarily.
the negative can seem true just because we don’t suspect a pretty lie. but there are ugly lies as well. and it’s fools and neurotics that always find the evidence to suit their negative state of mind.
cognitively, let’s coldly see reality. emotionally, let’s be irrationally confident and optimistic.
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Ronin,
a genuine alpha is a natural; a guy who instinctively implements most of what Roissy advocates but without any rehearsals and without the asshole component. He is smart and doesn’t take any bullshit. He is a guy most women subconsciously crave.
[editor: many alphas are assholes. in fact, it’s often the primary trait that separates them from the betas.]
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“There has to be some way to keep the betas from pumping up these gigantic egos.”
–Gee Vinny, I thought there wouldn’t be room for yet another gamer bog due to the massive dude egos already in existence, (but most with little to no finesse, intelligence and writing abilities like this one) but you’ve managed to squeeze more hot air in.
pot…meet kettle.
This post was fantastic. Disturbing, deep, depressing, the usual. And like A. G. wrote in his poem…”America, you make me want to be a saint.” Just to counterbalance human nature at its lowest. You make me want to go find God.
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I kind of like my ad hoc definition.
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“a genuine alpha is a natural’
–yes, margaret, yes.
[editor: a genuine alpha is whoever gets the most attention from the hottest babes, irrespective of his methods.]
“[editor: many alphas are assholes. in fact, it’s often the primary trait that separates them from the betas.]”
–But so many of those guys are betas underneath, and in the worst way.
[not in my observation. most betas don’t have the sack to be assholes. assholery comes naturally to alphas. and since women dig assholes, (at least, women in their prime sexual attractiveness years), alphas will happily play asshole for a day to get what they want.]
The asshole shell (which reads as insecure and dominating in all the wrong ways) with a limp shake is the worst candy to unwrap.
[better a paper alpha than a substantive beta.]
Alphas have nothing to prove.
[alphas are always proving themselves. women just can’t apprehend that the men they find most attractive are doing and saying the right things most of the time. once alphas stop doing and saying those things, they will cease being as attractive to women.]
They’re mellow by definition.
[i know a lot of beta potheads, and a lot of fiery-tempered passionate alphas.]
Naturals have been getting validated their whole lives.
[naturals can backslide.]
I nanny a four year old boy. He is an alpha…he just is, already. He’s a natural.
[as women can improve their looks through weight loss, makeup, and cosmetic surgery, so can men improve their status signaling through game which mimics the mannerisms of naturals.]
If a guy is going to be an asshole, he had better bring the credentials and the suave style to back that shit up…
[translation: be congruent. beta and switch is a buzzkill. so what you’re advocating is that betas hit their asshole stride early and often. i agree.]
and it had better trace back to his high school days.
[don’t be silly. i’ve turned on the asshole charm for girls on a dime, and they never once felt the need to check in with my high school exes to confirm the pedigree of my assholery. like a good set of T&A for men, women aren’t much concerned with why they feel the way they do when a man has pushed the right buttons. all they care about is the continued administration of the drug.]
This “loser into a fake alpha asshole” phenomenon is not a true representation.
[so you admit you have a lot of sexual experience with genuine assholes to be able to tell the difference?]
Girls who have dated quality, natural alphas see right through it.
[keep telling yourself that.]
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margaret,
It’s silly to argue over whose definition of a particular word is better. “Alpha” is defined differently by different groups of people and in different social contexts. Roissy/Chateau has been clear that he uses “alpha” to denote males for whom it is easy to get women willing to sleep with them, whether or not they actually do sleep with lots of women.
But the kind of alpha desired by women is different from a different definition also commonly used: a man men admire/respect/fear independent of what women think of him. These two definitions diverge more in some societies than in others (and the more divergence, the less healthier for society as a whole).
The traits of honorability, work ethic, self-sacrifice, etc., which a healthy society generally admires in men, are associated in Roissy’s scheme with the categories “beta provider” or “greater beta”. They are not specifically alpha even using the male-oriented definition because alpha also connotes some kind of leadership or dominance, while the beta traits can be exhibited by most men. For long-term relationships women generally value a mix of alpha and beta traits, but the single biggest lesson of game is that womens’ sexual attraction to men *especially initially* depends almost entirely on alpha traits, and even a man with excellent character, career, looks, etc., will still need to be alpha in Roissy’s sense to get women interested in the first place.
The “asshole” issue represents a dysfunction in womens’ emotional makeup which is unfortunately encouraged by our society. If “alpha” is defined operationally as that which attracts women, then asshole behavior can often be alpha, but the reason women are often attracted to assholes is that “self-confidence and strength of character to withstand social pressure”, an extremely desirable trait, superficially resembles “insensitivity to the feelings of other people and rejection of basic social norms”, an asshole trait.
A man who while aware of your feelings consciously allows his sense of what is right to overrule them may give the same impression as an asshole ignores your feelings because he doesn’t care about them or can’t detect them. Many if not most women are foolish enough to have trouble telling the difference quickly, so their emotional attraction gets triggered by the insensitive behavior and disables the asshole detector. This is an evolutionary shortcut which works well in societies where there are other forces discouraging men from being assholes, but in our society those forces have been greatly reduced.
For a man to allow a woman’s feelings to override his better judgment and appease them in order to please is “beta” in this context, but although this test distinguishes alphas from betas, assholes look like alphas to women ruled by their emotional reactions. It is much easier for most people (men too but especially women) to rationalize their initial emotional reaction rather than evaluate dispassionately. Women who get involved with assholes often take a long time to recognize that the man is a worthless jerk, and unfortunately even when they do realize this many blame men in general rather than their own faulty judgment.
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For a case where the genetic dynamic is determined almost exclusively by male competetive strategies rather than selection by females check out the story about lizards on this page: http://7thavenueproject.com/ (Just scroll down until you find the funny phallic lizard-head picture.)
Basically you get 3 types which chase each other in an endless paper/rock/scissor game.
The guy there calls them “Orange bullies, true blues and sneaky yellow bastards”, but they are basically, alphas, betas, and sneaky fuckers.
I think that “sneaky fuckers” (official name) have generally represented a substantial sector of mamalian male strategies. I first read about them in relation to deer.
Of course where the obstacle for them is mainly other males as in the lizard case they develop tactics such as impersonation of females. (I’ve also known of sneaky hetero men who’ve done very well by appearing as gay.)
But mostly where the females get to do most of the choosing their natural tactic would be to impersonate alphas. I think would-be PUA’s, with their detailed studies and mimicking of alpha behavious are mostly in this category. It’s nothing new, but probably deserves a greek letter of its own, such as sigma.
This would also explain why some betas are incapable of learning game, even though it would advantage them.
And I agree with margaret, in my experience true alphas are naturals, although not above malicious humor about the success of their outrageous presumption.
Sneaky fuckers probably get more lays though.
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e.g. Gonzo porn pioneer Ed Powers would be the classic sneaky fucker. No-one could ever accuse him of being alpha.
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A typical woman said:
“This “loser into a fake alpha asshole” phenomenon is not a true representation.”
Bullshit. Happens all the time. Women just like a stable heirachy. Once a loser, always a loser. It galls them that men can change, losers become alphas and vice versa.
At a guess I’d say it pisses them off because they have then overlooked potential alphas and wasted their love on current losers.
But irrespective of the reason, there is an important lesson here about the difference between men and women:
For men it is all about achievement. What you can become.
For women it is about what you are. Hence men prefer a system where they can rise to alpha-hood through merit whereas women prefer a system where every man has their position and it does not change EVER.
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@polymath writes
the reason women are often attracted to assholes is that “self-confidence and strength of character to withstand social pressure, an extremely desirable trait, superficially resembles “insensitivity to the feelings of other people and rejection of basic social norms”, an asshole trait”
This is very true and I think more accurate than the generalisation that women are attracted to assholes purely because they are assholes. I also think that part of the reason for the attraction here is that women are under so much social pressure themselves, that meeting someone who appears immune to that pressure is an escape (and escape is often what attraction, particularly initial attraction, is all about).
Social pressure on women has increased immensely over the past hundred years, and continues to rise. It is possible that the rise in women being taken in by assholes is directly connected.
Thanks for this, this is very interesting and provides food for thought.
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eyestones: Bullshit. Happens all the time. Women just like a stable heirachy. Once a loser, always a loser. It galls them that men can change, losers become alphas and vice versa.
Yes, I think you might be right. In any organisation, I’ve been in any woman will always quickly apply a label to a person, which is almost impossible to shake off. So someone is the one that is good at ‘money’, someone else is good at organising a party, some one else is good at giving a presentation and so on. In a woman’s mind people never move.
Men, though, think differently. You want a different job? Prove you can do it and you can have it.
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In what sense is Roissy a “nihilist”?
If you’re suggesting negation of one or more aspects of life (fatherhood, marriage, perhaps even “love” as commonly understood), perhaps. But that seems to me a rather narrow definition of nihilism.
Oftentimes “nihilist” is thrown around rather carelessly at people who reject conventional moral values. But such a person may simply have a unique set of values that is rather well integrated with his nature.
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I have never, ever longed for a sense of purpose in life greater than life itself. The Void is thus something I have never experienced myself. I am really, really curious as to the origin of the need for a greater-than-life purpose in others.
I suppose existentialism works for me just fine. I think this whole problem is entirely psychological and not philosophical at all. Different philosophies suit different people according to their emotional make-ups.
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Yes, Markku, good insight. Just as the rich vote republican, and the poor democrat, our bias needs inform our bias.
Like yourself, I also don’t need a greater overarching meaning, but am content in meaningful pleasures. My style is to blow up the silver linings and simple pleasures into grandiose adventures.
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Needs inform our bias. Predisposition informs our religion.
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“[editor: a genuine alpha is whoever gets the most attention from the hottest babes, irrespective of his methods.]”
–your definition of an alpha male is limited then, but that is part of it.
“[not in my observation. most betas don’t have the sack to be assholes. assholery comes naturally to alphas. and since women dig assholes, (at least, women in their prime sexual attractiveness years), alphas will happily play asshole for a day to get what they want.]”
–Roissy, being an asshole all the time is lazy and it takes great skill to pull off the right moves of it to be of any true representation of being an alpha. Firmness or anger has to come from a legit place, it’s weird to have some dude who a gal barley knows pulling the asshole game..it’s seems weird and forced. When a guy is stiff and actor like it comes off as insecure, it just does. Having high tolerance and a great sense of humor mixed in with the asshole abilities is the full game/full package. I’ve seen skinny, awkward guys being assholes, and compared to what I have dated it seems fake, which is creepy. Come on, you’re not a girl. I trust your views, I do, but you can be so linear sometimes.
“once alphas stop doing and saying those things, they will cease being as attractive to women.] ”
–change that to once a guy becomes weak, a woman stops being attracted to him. Weakness comes in many forms and that includes coming from a weak past. A deal breaker for me is to find out the dude was a complete dork way back when and has since become an asshole. What a let down. I mean if you’re gonna be an asshole, let it have been in your nature. It goes hand-in -hand with being a sort of rebel. Following the heard is never sexy to me personally. My boyfriend’s past has always impressed me and made me want him even more. If his past backs up the behavior the guy can take the asshole thing even further and still turn me on.
“Alphas have nothing to prove.”
–if the guy is a true alpha he will already have an extensive past of accomplishments….you know like a fucking multi-million dollar building or two, or five, that he designed, or a signed record deal if he plays in a band. There’s no faking talent. Talent is the number one alpha trait, period. When a girl has dated such men, it’s hard to take say…a blogger/slacker seriously as an alpha asshole. I’m mean, come on. What’s else does he have?
“and it had better trace back to his high school days. ”
–what I meant was that he was cool back then, comes from a big group of funny guy friends and they have can vouch for him as being the class clown, or athlete, or musician, etc. It traces back to high school for the naturals. You’re staying on the surface of dating, I’m talking about a little further into the relationship, when things are getting more serious.
“[so you admit you have a lot of sexual experience with genuine assholes to be able to tell the difference?]’
–I’ve only dated alphas, with the exception of one beta policy/government guy (who incidentally is the only guy to break my heart, not some buddy of yours as he has painted some to believe, pathetically, I’ve kept alphas by fucking and loving them right and I’ve broken those alpha’s hearts by being an allusive gemini…I don’t settle down into marriage easily). These alphas were assholes and it was sexy…but please do post about being a slick/suave asshole, not a spastic one. Too many guys have not and are not mastering the keys to the “applied asshole” methods. Make sure your students are passing the class, don’t turn a blind eye and grade on a curve…it’s the ladies that suffer from hot tempers and repressed hate of failure in their past of said dudes.
“Girls who have dated quality, natural alphas see right through it.
[keep telling yourself that.]”
–ok, I’ll give you that. Most likely they don’t, for a while at least.
Pot is the only thing I put into my body, I don’t even take advil. I’m a naturalist in that way 🙂 I am both passionate and mellow. Betas don’t smoke pot, they worry too much about government and law, alphas smoke pot (and cigs for that matter) and it’s sexy.
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Breeze said–
A typical woman said:
“This “loser into a fake alpha asshole” phenomenon is not a true representation.”
Breeze…I was saying that a lot of guys give off the asshole behavior and they aren’t really an alpha so they have no right to be doing so. It’s fake. A girl with good senses will pick up on it and become disillusioned with the guy and that will dry her up fast. If a guy wishes to improve himself he should spend less time on “outside game” and more on “inside game” is all I meant by that.
I had an experience where a so-called alpha guy broke a door knob off the door (due to one of his many temper tantrums) of the hotel we were staying at and he not only couldn’t fix it himself, he had to enlist the help of the staff and there was a big, long scene. The funny thing is, I could have fixed it, given my history of interior design. But I just sat back, legs propped up, sipping a glass of cab. I was more alpha than he, so it was weird. I remained calm, he became high-pitched and feverish. Not cool, not alpha behavior, not sexy in the slightest, ask any girl.
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oh, and Breeze, I have never wasted my time on such man…that comment came from my observing society. I only put up with such guys as friends, not boyfriends. Guys and gals should always be improving themselves if they feel like it brings them satisfaction. Once a loser, not always a loser, but if your ego doesn’t match your past…well, then…you may get called out.
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“I was saying that a lot of guys give off the asshole behavior and they aren’t really an alpha so they have no right to be doing so. ”
It’s like certain men have rights other men don’t have in the eyes of women. It’s really starting to click that the core basis of women is not equality…..but inequality.
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Check out the ego on anouk. Everything wrong with the modern woman in one little package. She could start by not being so bitter and talking about Roosh not-so-subtly all the time. It’s embarrassing.
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Anoukange
I think game will work best with higher betas, and lesser alphas, who are those things rather than alphas primarily because of nice guy social programming all over the place now, esp. if that’s reinforced in his home as well. Higher betas are typically successful in work, and can be very successful. They’re typically also socially adept among men. They’re mostly just not conditioned to be edgie or playfully flirty, which involves some asshole side.
Sure guys trained at home and at school to be nice guys if they’re very naturally charismatic will tend to be at least lesser alphas. As well the pull they’ll have with girls from the charisma will tend to make them take girls more for granted and become sort of automatic assholes (even if they try not to be), tending to pull them towards straight up alpha. A natural.
But trained to be nice guys who are natural strong leaders among guys with a touch less magnetic charisma, can readily learn to be edgie and playfully tease girls, and after demonstrating value, make them chase some, back and forth, emotional roller coaster. Sure these are things some guys just fall into by middle school. Others who are close, fall the other way. Each can snowball. The easy success with hot and hottish girls, or the lack of it.
I was starting to get into how I taught myself game starting by lots of observing specifically with getting better, really good not just ok, with girls in mind in middle school, and how it really worked, but have decided not to now in any detail. Too long for one thing. But I went from basically a higher beta in middle school, to a lesser alpha in high school, to an alpha in college, law school, and so on. It got easier and easier and second nature, as I did more right things and avoided more wrong things, had lots more success, and that built more confidence and social proof w/girls, that snowballed.
This is before there was game per se or taught PUA arts, way before. But there were guys to observe who were real good at it (but sometimes blew it) and a lot of that in literature too. However the later was mixed with all kinds of misinformation as well, it became increasingly clear to me. Though I can’t say I ever had anything like as clearly an articulated concept of game (as opposed to just feeling what worked for me) before I’d discovered Roissy.
So yes I’m sure game can be taught. Hell I’ve learned quite a few additional things reading here. But no it can’t be equally effectively taught to everyone. Roissy himself has said this a number of times. It can help any guy move up who really gets it and works on it. But a lesser beta not to mention a higher omega (male 3) who’s socially awkward as hell and never lead more than one other person at a time in his life (if that), is very unlikely to become a full solid alpha. Like it will never happen if you ask me. But he might be able to game up enough to keep a wife (with a prenup and living together first at least, if he has listened to me and has half a brain). As well he just might earlier start to be able to manage some semi casual sex with 5’s who aren’t obese for the first time in his life and then maybe 6’s, if the lesser beta really works on game and well becomes higher than that in the girl attracting arts. Some middle betas may make it to some kind of alpha, probably lesser.
With higher betas some girls ARE attracted to them as they are, and I’m talking in college and after, before these girls are ready to get married. Not the hottest girls usually but 7’s often enough, and 6’s. More serious and “good girls” as opposed to sluts (or if you prefer those that some will call sluts or sometimes sluts). But usually / nearly always these girls will want a committed relationship as the quid pro quo for being with these guys. So higher betas have had relationships w/good looking girls. Although not usually articulated to themselves much less to others, these girls are usually settling a little on the male edgie/hotness side cause they don’t want to be just fling material, not to mention just pumped and dumped. Often they’ve first had to have that experience to realize that. Girls rarely clearly tell themselves this though, preferring various pretty lies about preferring certain sorts of guys, at least until it’s husband hunting for real time. Though good girls can get gina tingles a lot more easily and also from love/commitment as part of the mix.
Learning game will work best precisely with the guys who do have success and leadership among men, but are more awkward w/women due to: 1) being taught the wrong “be a nice guy to her, chase her, win her over with doing things for her etc., let her win arguments, talk about serious things when you’re getting to know her so you know you’re compatible, treat her like a princess” messages which puts the guy in LJBF mode right quick w/any even somewhat hottish girl he tries to attract (at least before she’s desperately husband hunting, and then she’ll often be settling w/out real passion); and 2) his consequent record of failure in getting hot girls interested in him, PARTICULARLY for casual sex, when all around he can see other guys doing it with relative ease all the time.
These are the successful and leading among men guys (these kinds of higher betas) who genuinely SHOULD get hot girls, socially speaking, but don’t due to having absorbed the feminist/chivalrous propaganda rather than early on having absorbed the behavior of a wiz with the hotties male role model.
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Of course there’s also the factor of genetic things in the guy — his degree of drive (which his testosterone level has contributed to), his height, being smart enough, and well yeah not being hideous looking.
But other than looks and height, these things are largely self selected for in those that will want to learn game enough to really put in the extended effort to do so, practice, and stop letting rejection bother him so much.
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Following the heard is never sexy to me personally.
Following the herd?
I’ve kept alphas by fucking and loving them right and I’ve broken those alpha’s hearts by being an allusive gemini
Elusive?
You might consider giving up “faking” the “game” of trying to write in a manner to portray yourself as intelligent and articulate when clearly both your knowledge of expressions and vocabulary beyond a certain level just isn’t there. Any guy with a IQ over 120 will realize you are a bullshitter and aren’t nearly as smart you think you are or pretend to be.
Your comments really irritated me, especially the part about high school. I’ll readily admit I was a total nerd/dork/geek in high school, and through a combination of hitting the gym hard and learning some Game I think I’ve been able to at least attain lesser alpha status in terms of women’s sexual attraction to me. I’m in a LTR with a solid 8.
Your message to betas is essentially “Know your role” and accept the caste as it stands at high school graduation. Fuck that. And it is laughable for you to talk about women knowing the difference when you got totally Gamed by we all know who. You are full of shit.
Can’t remember where I read it, but the message was the reason so many women vehemently (look it up) oppose Game is because they don’t want to be “tricked” by someone who learned Game versus a “natural alpha”. The other commenter had it right. So much for equality of opportunity.
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Plank-
I would have had no bitterness towards him if he hadn’t lied about what went down. He knew I didn’t like him, it was both said and expressed in other ways. I don’t do subtle when someone has said something about me that isn’t true. I was kind to him and he knows it and when he started to be a baby I became different. I can be friends with a guy when there is no romantic link happening. It’s that simple for me. Things don’t have to get nasty, but if they do, I won’t shrink from representing my side. Sorry dude. Sorry for all of you really– but until the shit talking stops and the lies are cleared up, I will continue to rip his style. If you are lying in your claims of women liking you, you are not an alpha.
I am a happy, non-bitter woman who enjoys men and just calls out the pussies who pose. If one is not a pussy who lies or poses, then one shouldn’t be offended, now should he?
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And some of us had ambiguous roles, especially if we considered ourselves as iconoclasts. And had sporadic successes.
There is a type of style that is neither dominant nor submissive. Engaging, but not by the rules. Not a player, nor a sycophant. Not a leader nor a follower. Completely disinterested in either leading or following, yet not autistic and still a people person.
That type of personality doesn’t get pegged down in high school, or really ever, other than by looks and clothes and financial status and all the other obvious sexual attraction markers.
And dominance is not a personality trait you are born with, such as cheerfulness. It’s a habit that becomes a personality trait, built upon positive feedback.
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@Anoukange
everyones heard enough of your shit. Iv’e seen the photos, youv’e never dated an alpha. Any guy who dates you for longer than a month is beta by definition. You are certainly not attracting anything but pussies, don’t try and dress up the least pussy of ur pussy bunch as alphas please.
The most alpha thing any guy could do as far as your concerned is not look at you twice. Good day
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Mike-
Since I do not know you and I offended you, my apologies. If you were a dork in high school but are cool, decent guy now,(and even then) then nothing I have said should be taken in by you. My comments are for those that ride high with even higher egos that have no right to. What I’ve seen in society and also because I was in two long terms with two natural alphas, they don’t shove it down the throats of people. They were mellow, and relaxed and their previous accomplishments preceded them, so they could be. I only attack the assholes that play asshole now when they weren’t all that back when. Understand?
Also, I am just god awful as a typist and I always misplace words with others similar in my head and I need to improve, period. I will work on it. I do not fake anything, it’s just not my style. I tend to date people for a long time so there’s no faking—I am not a very good liar, I would get caught, so I stay clear of it.
Congrats on your own happiness, I would never rip you or put you down due to your own self-improvement. Again, I only attack those who have attitude and have no right to.
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Plank–
Also, I’m not embarrassed. I think I’ve proven that pretty clearly by now. I do not value certain things the way some do, so it is easy not to give a shit what certain people think.
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realist-
your mother should have aborted you.
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Anoukange how many times do i have to tell you’ve never had a long term relationship with an alpha. Iv’e seen what you look like so please don’t kid yourself. You are an alpha pity fuck at best. If i saw you walking down street with one of your supposed “alphas” and my chick-dar didn’t automatically filter out ur ordinary ass, i’d think “awww BETAS need love too” lozlzolzozl
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Doug1-
I can tell you’re an alpha by how you respond and write. I would also believe you when you say that you carried it for most of your life. You seem smart, confident and patient, all alpha traits. Thank you for your comments, I do agree with much of what you have to say almost always. The higher beta/lesser alphas is the prime time in partner landing as far as I’m concerned. Roissy is also an alpha because of his natural talent for writing. He could have been with only three girls and still be an alpha. I’m not saying that to blow smoke up his ass either, it’s just a fact. Doug, you clearly know what you’re talking about and you are so brilliant in your language of breaking it all down. I like your mind. 🙂
For the record, so it is in print for all: I was in love with another man when I met RV, he knows this. I wanted to just escape my own heartache over the ending of the affair with this man I card deeply for when I went out to a bar one night and met RV. He gamed me in the beginning. After I found out what he does, I didn’t really care after I digested it because– a.) I was in love with someone else, b.) I do not knock how others live their life if they are generally decent to others, c.) It really didn’t matter since I only viewed him as casual friend, d.) the reason I sent him hate mail was because he involved himself in my personal life and tried to shit on/get involved with a friendship that was forming between me and a guy he had introduced me to. I was not against Roosh, nor would I have gotten in the way of his own personal life while down visiting him, so I was shocked when he stuck his nose in mine. I was very cool with him actually and told him to tell people we were first cousins so there would be no issues. He knows this too. I honestly thought him to be a friend of sorts, and talked to him as such. I have many guy friends that I have traveled with, I just chose the wrong guy to visit. If he hadn’t sent a nasty email to my friend Jorge, I would have NO issues with him.
Roissy/Chateau-
sorry for this shit on your blog, just so it’s said.
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realist-
If I’m sooooo not your type, then just shut the fuck up! Why? Why do you keep at it? Are you man enough to come say these things to my face? And I mean this…come to DC, I will meet you and then you can get all of this off your chest. I must admit, I find all of your anger very strange given you don’t even know me and I never did anything to you. like I’ve said before, at least I save my anger for someone who I have known in real life and who had personally offended me. You must be one sorry looking bastard to be that upset at a girl on the internet. Complex much?
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realist-
I must meet you because I can back up all of my shit. I guarantee it. After I spank you though, you must admit that you were wrong, deal? I’m laughing now…I can’t get over the hate for a complete stranger some of you can have. How frickin weird. You’re too angry to be getting laid, you should jack off more dude.
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come on now, like i’m going to fly stateside for a piece of that action. what exactly are you hoping to prove to me missy?
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Doug-
I adore you and would never leave you hanging, dream lover 🙂
realist-
I’m very, very serious. If you come here, I will prove anything you think I lie about. It is in my core self to take my identity and claims against my past and integrity seriously. If you can’t come here then we will have to figure out a way for me to share with you the info. of my previous alpha boyfriends. If I can get their approval, I can send you their names and you can research them yourself. They each have public accomplishments. You are taking from me what I pride myself on. I was good to my men and they know it. I am proud of them and you act like that’s somehow a bad thing. Believing in men and giving them value when they deserve it…what an ass I am.
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anoukange
Peace. 😉
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I don’t know what to say…..except
lozlzozlozlzozlzozllzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlzlz
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so, let me get this straight….you call someone a liar and when they say they can prove that they are not you run like a chicken shit and type some lame ass grouping of letters that teenagers are using to text to each other with? huh? You’re a strange brew of pussy, like a your daddy wasn’t around much wile you were developing so you stopped at 13. All type, no balls.
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weak realist….weak. Go do some man-ups and a couple squat thrusts in the hopes you pull a tiny manhood muscle and the doctors massage it out and just leave you with your vagina exposed already.
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yep thats me, but im not the one tryin to qualify themself.
Don’t worry i believe you when you say youv’e ridden the cock carousel, well done lolzozlozlzozlzozlzolzozlzolz
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even weaker…I didn’t think it was possible. …and reaching to lies now are we? if you can’t pull from truth and real life…do what all the fake alphas do…lie!
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The only ahievements you need to show me is these “alpha’s” current gfs/hook ups, if they have moved on to errr better things, greener pastures, hotter ass then i will consider admitting that they have become alphas since moving on from you. If we take Roissy’s definition of alpha as the ability to bed hot chicks these guys were clearly going through a dry spell when they managed to burn multiple years of their life with the likes of you.
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please hurry up, find me those photos of that hotter ass they are now getting. Hell maybe they even stumbled upon citizen renegade and learnt some game since then, then of course they wouldn’t be naturals…….but you never know if you’re lucky they might have been cheating on you with hotter ass all along, in which case i stand corrected, is that the case???
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And can i please see some video evidence of all the asses in question riding said “alpha’s” cocks, and that includes yours. Thanx again.
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I had an experience where a so-called alpha guy broke a door knob off the door (due to one of his many temper tantrums) of the hotel we were staying at and he not only couldn’t fix it himself, he had to enlist the help of the staff and there was a big, long scene. The funny thing is, I could have fixed it, given my history of interior design. But I just sat back, legs propped up, sipping a glass of cab. I was more alpha than he, so it was weird. I remained calm, he became high-pitched and feverish. Not cool, not alpha behavior, not sexy in the slightest, ask any girl.
I’m fascinated by this exchange between Anouk, Roissy and Breeze.
I think we could benefit from analyzing this subject in more detail. It’s something I wrestle with myself.
When I was younger and naive (before I attempted to look outside myself for answers in the Community), I was forced to confront my own shortcomings WRT to women and romance. One of the first bitter pills I had to swallow in my ruthless self-examination was my short fuse and low tolerance for frustration. I was something of a control freak and a perfectionist. I had a bad temper. My father, who was the same, led me to believe that this was an element of manhood — of “not putting up with shit”.
But my experience with women and the men whom they fucked quickly disabused me of some of my delusion. I came to see that exploding over minor slights was nothing more than the tantrum throwing of an infant. One of my first lessons came in the form of a summer job I had in my high-school days where I worked in a recycling warehouse alongside some salty blue-collar dudes. Me and my high-school buddy were always inconvenienced in some form or another by the hot, dirty, messy working conditions. So much so that our performance suffered and we were called out by our coworkers. I quickly adapted, learning to accomodate the clutter, dirt and roaches. I got respect. OTOH, my buddy continued to bitch and whine and needed to take breaks every 30 minutes to drink some water. I’m making no judgements here btw.
My personal evolution was furthered when I experimented with psychedelic drugs and began to study Eastern philosophies in earnest. I came to see how *impotent* and *weak* it was to rail and rage against circumstances beyond one’s control. I learned some degree of equanimity. This was buttressed by my observation of *some* alphas (and I emphasize *some*) not sweating the small stuff. I considered this growth of mine conducive to ascending the alpha ladder. I learned to chill out. I became less spastic and reactive. Cool as a cucumber. I would encounter shit situations and not even raise my voice, just rationally assess the situation. Tried to calmly sort things out.
YET…
It is also equally apparent to me that quite a significant proportion of women (the hot ones) find nothing amiss, indeed, seem to find it alluring, to be with a man who rages against every perceived slight. Someone who “doesn’t take no shit”. Someone who “gets what he wants.” If the steak at a restaurant was only medium when you ordered medium rare, it was seen as weak and beta to not make a scene and demand your steak as you had ordered it. No brownie points for just letting it slide and focusing on the intimacy of the moment and the good conversation. If the doorman at a club let some connected beautiful people in before you and your date, you were seen by her as weak if you were willing to wait the extra 5 minutes to be allowed in instead of getting confrontational with the doorman.
This is not to excuse *genuinely* egregious behavior on the part of others, but the fact is, in this life, sometimes shit happens. What is more alpha: to focus on the big picture and be willing to lose some battles in order to win the war, or being hypersensitive to every percieved slight? I’m not telling you, I’m asking you.
Upon reflection, if I had to guess, I would say there is a difference in emotional evolution between the women who abide the hassles vs. the ones who demand All Alpha All The Time. Yes, the latter are often hotter, but not always. Could it be, given that sexual polarity depends on at least *some* dominance differential, that more evolved women find their niche of female submission in more refined displays of masculine equanimity, and that the more primitive (and yes, sometimes hotter) women are still operating on the reptilian brain of the prehistoric savannah?
I hope I don’t come across as a mangina. I’m thinking here of how the inborn tendency for violence in humanity – which once expressed itself in Mayan ball games (where the losing team was put to death) — has *evolved* to a higher level where we now indulge our atavistic impulses in the form of football games, where the same dynamics play out, but on a more refined level. As a musician, I think of octaves. A low C is the same note as a middle C which is the same note as a high C. They are just octaves of each other. But the higher notes operate at a higher frequency.
Ok. I’m getting a bit verklempt here. Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Tupac–
Very good and interesting comment.
My short reactions are that girls do vary. Partly it’s a class thing, and also a different cultures thing. Latin girls want more in your face macho; Anglo ones w/class usually want more smooth verbal dominance re: the outside world. But it varies w/the girl more than w/her hottness I think. We’re talking styles of male dominance here, not it’s existence.
Verklempt hunh? Show off.
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anoukange:
“and it had better trace back to his high school days.”
Let’s turn the tables: a fat unpopular girl in high school who turns her life around, loses the weight, becomes attractive, gains confidence and start looking for guys for relationships/sex/whatever should be held back from enjoying her new self and her opportunities because she was once ugly and dull in …where? in high school, one of the dumbest places you’ll ever spent your life in.
In my high school the “coolest” guys were the 90IQ jackasses who wore sports clothes but couldn’t run a mile and among them only a tiny minority of “dominant” males, the rest were just followers.
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Tupac–
Brilliant. You are a deep thinker and it shows. If guys want to stay in the shallow mentality and just blow their life away, that’s fine by me but, they can’t assign the same values to those around them. Thank you for your thoughts, I really need to hire you and Doug1 to speak for me since I cannot seem to drive my point home. I’m sure my being a girl works against me in this crowd.
Doug1- yes, yes, yes. I can’t comment on class because I will be blown to bits and the fodder will be too great if I set myself up like that….but yes, class. Smooth talker, not temper indulger. I swear on my life, I truly thought the guy was unstable because every time I turned around, he was loosing his cool. Cool headedness is sexy. Anger, dominance, spanking, yelling at…etc., all have their effects too, you are all right in that. APPLICATION of all the skills is what proves a master though.
Michael- Please read my follow-up comments. I have no bone with self improvement. If that same girl you write of was a raging, snobby bitch I would be tearing into her as well. To have a girl or guy be an asshole and then find out they were a loser for quite some time in their past…..I can’t help but draw the conclusion that they are projecting onto others. The ones that have been cruising coolness and talent for a while and that have been getting validated most of their lives are just more laid back. They’ve lived it. Little gets to them because they do see and operate within the view of the bigger picture. I rip females and males alike if they are schmucks.
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Doug–you’re right in the key word being style. Romance/seduction style and all of its gradations are up for debate it seems.
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@anoukange,
Did Roosh really blast inside?
lolzlolzlzozlzozlzozlzozlzlzzozlzzzlolzolzozlzozzzzz!!!!!!
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Doug:
Tupac–
Very good and interesting comment.
My short reactions are that girls do vary. Partly it’s a class thing, and also a different cultures thing. Latin girls want more in your face macho; Anglo ones w/class usually want more smooth verbal dominance re: the outside world. But it varies w/the girl more than w/her hottness I think. We’re talking styles of male dominance here, not it’s existence.
Yeah, I suspect a lot of it is a class thing. I’m sure many readers here reside within their own class bubbles, and so these sorts of problems never arise. I, on the other hand, find my self straddling different cliques and subcultures. And, as you have noted regarding latinos, there is the brackish waters of Miami where anglo and hispanic culture collide. It can be hard to navigate sometimes.
But I’m surprised Xsplat hasn’t weighed in on this topic. I was hoping for his input since it would seem to be right up his alley, i.e., Buddhistic non-attachment vs. Alpha grasping.
Xsplat, do you think you could tear yourself away from that 12 year old Thai boy long enough to give us some feedback? Thanks.
Another thought that occurred to be while pondering this issue is what to make of situations where the woman in a relationship is more educated and ambitious and berates her laid-back hubby for not undertaking some activity or another? Usually we characterize these situations as that of a shrewish harpy attempting to betaize her man, but what if what she is harping on is his failure to man up? From a Game perspective it is absolutely critical that the man NEVER acquiesces to his woman’s demands because she will respect him less for following her lead. But let’s step back and ask why hasn’t HE risen to the occassion? I’m thinking here of borderline cases where a woman bitches about, say, a man not mowing the lawn or fixing the roof. On the one hand we would like to believe that a man should take care of his castle. But if it isn’t that important to him, whose side should we take? Again, a man shouldn’t do anything a woman tells him to do *just because she said it*, but on the other hand we should not excuse slackerdom. I have in mind some SWPL couples I know where the guy is a decent enough fellow, but the wife bitches constantly about taking care of this, taking care of that, and she seems like a total bitch, but she HAS to in order to make sure things are running smoothly. I’m not sure if I’ve characterized this issue clearly enough.
Verklempt hunh? Show off.
I once dated a Jewish chick who told me I must be part Jewish because of my excessive rumination. Who knows, maybe I am part kike.
What does harakiri mean again?
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I have in mind some SWPL couples I know where the guy is a decent enough fellow, but the wife bitches constantly about taking care of this, taking care of that, and she seems like a total bitch, but she HAS to in order to make sure things are running smoothly. I’m not sure if I’ve characterized this issue clearly enough.
Which came first…the chicken or the egg – i.e. the bitching or the slacking?
Because in some cases, the guy may start out trying to do things…and he gets bitched at anyways. Afterall, he gets the “why try?” mentality.
Than he only gets motivated when her bitchiness and nagging reach the unbearable point.
In any case, that dynamic is clearly one in which the man and woman are living within the dynamic of her being his authority figure.
Nothing good ever comes from that.
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anoukange:
Tupac–
Brilliant. You are a deep thinker and it shows. If guys want to stay in the shallow mentality and just blow their life away, that’s fine by me but, they can’t assign the same values to those around them. Thank you for your thoughts, I really need to hire you and Doug1 to speak for me since I cannot seem to drive my point home.
Thanks.
If I may make so bold (and forgive me any indiscretion — far from it from me to be uncouth), but it would be remiss to not mention that I would very much like to cum inside you as well.
Cheers!
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DFH:
Which came first…the chicken or the egg – i.e. the bitching or the slacking?
Good question. But if we allow that women, for better or worse, are becoming more educated, sophisticated, and encouraged towards self-empowerment, it is entirely possible that we will see growing mismatches in competence between couples.
One of those unintended consequences of feminism, dontcha know.
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Tupac
Suicide I think, in long knife in belly Japanese ritual way.
I’m tempted to say the way I’d handle that is by hiring someone to mow the law. But that’s avoiding the issue and being elitist. I don’t want to do/be either here.
I’m not a slacker at all though that’s not to say I enjoy things like mowing lawns. I don’t hate it w/immersion iPods but I don’t like it. But truth be told I do farm that out to hired help for the half the year weekend place. Not much of a lawn to mow in my NYC loft. Fixing stuff around the house yeah, often.
What I’d do is tell my woman that 1) most all things are up for discussion with me when you’re in a reasonable mood, but you are not to bitch at me, nag me or berate me or I just won’t in the least listen to you, and if gets bad enough I’ll take other measures you really won’t like. Bad girl.
2) Ok the law. I hate mowing as mindless drudge work, and care far less about it being perfect than you do. But ok, if it’s that important to you, I’ll mow more often. Now I’d like to talk about cooking. You know I work a lot more hours than you do. So why are you lazily not cooking more, and us ordering takeout less? If you want me to mow the law more to make you happy in an area I don’t care about, how about you’re cooking some meals with some creative recipe lookup and buying ingredients effort into it for me – really both of us I think you’ll find when you get more into it. I mean cooking can be far more creative than mowing the lawn ever can be.
Like that.
2) let’s talk about this lawn mowing thing.
[editor: re: tupe’s quandary. women get disappointed with men when men don’t live up to their stated principles and goals. so if a man says he likes a green lawn, or in the early stages of a relationship acts as if he likes a green lawn, then over time stops mowing the lawn to play video games instead, his woman will nag him relentlessly. but if he lays down the law early on that he doesn’t give a shit about green lawns and won’t waste time doing any mowing, then she’ll be less likely to nag when he spends his free time watching the crab grass grow with a gin and tonic in one hand.]
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Ok the lawn.
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Interesting dilemma — if the nagging is about household stuff rather than career, the man may genuinely feel that less needs to be done than the woman does, and he needs to make that clear.
My wife is the handyman around the house and garden because she actually likes to do that stuff and has very elaborate notions of how she wants things to look — I’m happy to help with any well-defined task within my skillset, but I ignore her (very infrequent) complaints that I should do more, since I just don’t care as much as she does. (On the other hand, when a difficult problem arises that can’t be handled by using the tools we have in conventional ways, I frequently come up with a brilliant improvisation that resolves the situation.)
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Tupac, I’m not sure what the issue is that you’d like me to weigh in on.
If it’s about women liking pure thug behavior, I’ve weighed in already about that in that I don’t see it and doubt it exists outside of latino and black getto culture.
In all my life I have zero first hand experience with pure thuggish behavior being attractive to women.
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polymath
Yes exactly. Excellent point.
This feminist notion that they’ve turned into a widespread American meme that a man should do half “the household work” 1) which though unstated is actually assumed to be the work that the wife wants done as thought that’s the rule; and 2) regardless of the man working a lot more hours to bring in money, is just totally whacked.
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Oh, and by Latino, I mean people with American Indian blood in them. Seems that race is a bit vicious.
Did you know that the Americas were colonized several times during the ice age, but that the natives didn’t even bother to steal their women, but just wiped out each successive group of visitors of that era? There is convincing evidence to the visitations, but none in the locals DNA. Blood thirsty bastards.
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xsplat–
News to me. Although there are puzzling genetic strains among some N.American AmerIndians, that suggest Finland area origins. Maybe not that puzzling though. And you’re not talking about a surviving DNA footprint.
What evidence?
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Polymath–
Gardening.
Yeah forget a man “having” to participate in gardening. That’s 100% optional and 95% female wanted. Not that I can’t enjoy the fruits of fresh herbs and blooming flowers. But that’s her hobby, not mine.
However. This last weekend we got her garden extension going. It was an open/check the house weekend, and a her hands on her garden weekend basically. Yeah really her weekend. So yes, I did help her with buying and toting around bags of hyper good soil and fertilizer and new herbs to plant and new rose bushes, well along in the nursery, and so on.
But that was pretty much a one off. For which she owes me, and she happily agrees.
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No, I’m saying that there is NO surviving genetic footprint, but some other evidence. The other evidence that I recall is skull shapes and stone tools.
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xsplat–
well I’m interested if you can provide a link or other good starting point.
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Sorry, it was just some TV show I saw on BBC Science or maybe the Discovery channel. Or perhaps it was a few such shows. Plus maybe some magazine article? There was one TV show about stone tools as evidence for a European migration into North America during the Ice age. And I recall some other evidence being about skull shapes – whether it was the same show or not, I can’t remember. And I vaguely remember hearing of some vague evidence for the Chinese crossing by sea way back.
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Ya, I guess it was all on the same TV show. The remarkable conclusion at the end of the show though was really stupid. It did not conclude that the natives wiped out all the visitors. But that North America was a wonderful melting pot in the way distant past.
A melting pot where nobody fucked.
Riiiiiggghhhht.
Bloodthirsty bastards. No wonder Hispanics like them a good thug. Anyone up for a good ritualized heart rendering?
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Tupac-
ooh la la monsieur….bedroom talk in daylight hours= sexy
*blush*
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To address the last third of your article: some people are less fearful of being dead than others.
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