A running theme on this blog is the frightful sight of herbs and betas performing slow motion self-emasculations. While the herb and the beta are closely related, there are some notable differences between them.
In this post, I defined the herb:
*herb, noun – a schlumpy, nondescript white guy with no fashion sense, chin, or sexual gravitas, who has managed to hook up with a cute chick. Herbs usually wear satchels to nightclubs and button down collar shirts with the Hanes undershirt
peaking through at the neck. They love anything khaki and are not embarrassed to be seen wearing fanny packs or sandals. A super herb takes it up a notch with white athletic socks and an extra-large t-shirt to hide his man boobs. They have a walk that can be best described as looking like they are carrying a load in their pants. They will annoy you just by being there. The fact that a herb will have usually managed to score a cute yuppie chick will fill you with violent feelings toward him.
You can see another great photo of a herb here. And here. And here is an example of the subspecies hipster herb.
How does a beta differ from a herb? In this post there is a photo of a beta revealing his true nature with an awkwardly placed hand on a cute girl’s shoulder. The biggest difference is that the herb usually has better *conventionally defined* success with women. The herb is not necessarily beta, though he often is. Many herbs in the city can be seen taking long romantic walks with decent looking girlfriends, defying all logic and universal laws. Herbs, therefore, have some preternatural ability to squeak out a semblance of a normal life, despite their shortcomings. Perhaps it is that they are oblivious to their self-defeating behavior, and so attract the type of women for whom dating an oblivious man suits their agenda.
Betas (and omegas), in contrast, struggle to achieve the societally-approved provider chump role to a sexless, ungrateful, Entitled American Princess. They are a more pitiable creature than the herb because their fruitless struggle often results in the stink of desperation trailing them wherever they go. The herb, to his credit, rarely reeks of desperation (until he is dumped), probably owing to the aforementioned obliviousness. Betas are more apt to look like they’re trying too hard, which is why you’ll often see better-dressed betas roaming the streets alone while schleppy herbs shuffle contentedly holding hands with their girlfriends.
In short, betas are the type of guys to spend years with internet porn and video games, while herbs are the type of guys to dutifully push strollers for kids that, unbeknownst to them, aren’t theirs. In the end, though, both betas and herbs wind up fulfilling their role as soulsucked providers to harridan wives, ensuring that the cogs of society remain greased with the sweat of their brows and the tithe of their taxes.
A few more differences between betas and herbs:
beta – dog
herb – dog in a stroller
beta – worries that wife is cheating on him
herb – has no idea wife is cheating on him
beta – wants to be alpha
herb – has no concept of the better life
beta – envious of men with hotter girfriends
herb – chastises himself for admiring classic beauty of older susan sarandon
beta – resigned
herb – compliant
beta – stymied sex drive
herb – borderline androgynous
beta – brain loaded with lies
herb – pants loaded
Reader Carol (a self-described Amazon alpha female) sent me a pic of what she termed a “beta boy”, shopping in Chicago with his girlfriend.

She wrote this about the pic:
My sister is an avid reader of your blog and she introduced me to it. I check it out from time to time.
I see Beta Boys all over the city of Chicago. Since I got my new iphone…it only makes sense to try and snap pics of these betas. Unfortunately the iphone does not zoom. But I’m working on this. [ed: if you’re a beta or herb, now you have more to worry about — chicks taking your photo for mockery on this blog.]
Check out this beta cubs fan wearing his girlfriend’s purse. I had to do a freaking triple take to be sure he was not gay. No, he was wearing her purse. Following her all around the store as she flipped through racks of clothes. Mind you, this was post Cubs game…so they were probably drunk as well.
Jesus. I would never ask a man to hold my purse. Let alone a sparkly shining number that announces to everyone your man is carrying your purse.
Yeah, this is pretty bad. For this man’s sake, let’s hope drunkenness was his excuse. It’s not even OK to hold your woman’s purse for a second so she can grab at something (let it drop to the floor or put it on a shelf if she tries to shove her purse in your hands); it’s leagues worse to take her purse and then wear it around like it’s your own, while following her like a puppy dog as she rifles through racks of discount panties. This guy looks very comfortable wearing her purse slung over his shoulder like that, as if he’s done it before.
I would classify this guy as a herb if he sees nothing wrong with this picture. Otherwise, he’s a garden variety beta asking “how high” when his girlfriend tells him to jump.


So is a Herb a beta triumphant?
LikeLike
Oh my God… I’m not a beta. I’m an herb! I’m wearing khaki pants, my white Hanes(!!!) undershirt is poking through my button-up polo-style work shirt, I usually wear white athletic socks after hours, and I absolutely wear X-Large t-shirts to hide my man boobs.
I guess the good news here is that my kid with my current wife looks a lot like the kid I had with my previous wife, so, if she’s cheating on me, she’s cheating on me with the same guy my last ex-wife was cheating on me with. The bad news, of course, is that I didn’t learn my lesson. Bah!
Self-enlightenment sucks!
LikeLike
hey roissy man i hope that with all us fuctardos commenting all teh time you never forget that yous gots something specials lzozlzlzlzl
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2008/07/unpc_reading_2.html
LikeLike
Form over substance, lame. What kind of person wouldn’t hold something for someone on occasion? Sheesh.
LikeLike
I believe myself to be a former herb, still having herb traits I am cleaning out of my relationship closet to make room to for alpha traits. The herbal uniform no longer fits, but still hangs in the wardrobe.
Here is what i still need to dump, and the only reason it isn’t gone is my own laziness:
“a schlumpy, nondescript white guy with no fashion sense…who has managed to hook up with a cute chick. Herbs usually wear…button down collar shirts with the Hanes undershirt peaking through at the neck…an extra-large t-shirt to hide his man boobs. …The fact that a herb will have usually managed to score a cute yuppie chick will fill you with violent feelings toward him.”
The rest is already thrown out, but last night I was thinking, for a fleeting moment…how comfortable crocs would feel. I then proceeded to cleanse my thoughts by doing pushups.
The man boobs are the hardest thing to get rid of. Lower body is pure muscle. The upper boday is still flabby. FWIW, man boobs totally destroy any 6-pack abs positivity.
LikeLike
DC is full of cute chicks with herbs. i’m beginning to think that i’m witnessing some sort of reversal of nature. all these hyper-aggressive credentialist DC women seem to be preferring relationships with herbs. they get to wear the pants and none of their progressive feminist indoctrination gets disturbed.
LikeLike
Carol is definitely a Sox fan.
LikeLike
Herbs seem to be really popular.
I wonder if it’s related to the feminizing of men. There just aren’t enough alphas. Or maybe women like it?
Um. No.
LikeLike
So, in order to avoid herb status, men have to emulate Bob Novogratz? As for the white-tshirt thing, that reminds me of some branches of the military, some uniforms have a visible crew neck t-shirt under the shirt…or the white t-shirt and thin sweater fad from a few years back.
Anyway, it’s interesting that alphatude so relies on being unhelpful as to forbid all purse carrying.
LikeLike
Herb count increase correlated with the popularization of pegging?
Coincidence? Me thinks not.
LikeLike
as follow up to my last point i present this.
it’s video of meryl streep talking about how men used to tell her that their favorite role was Linda, the nice and supportive girlfriend from The Deerhuner. Now, men tell her that their favorite role is the uber-bitch from The Devil Wears Prada. apparently, this is a sign of progress…
here is another difference between herbs and betas. herbs admire the contemporary feministing shrew, because those woman absolve the herb of any need to grow a set and act like a man. betas feel contempt for the modern woman, because they can’t figure out how to get laid.
LikeLike
I think you could further refine your taxonomy by speaking of “greater herbs”, “herbs” and “lesser herbs”. The difference will be principally on how cute/pretty a girl he can attract, and for how long.
The essence of the difference I think. Herbs have low sex drive (or at least act like they do, and have harnessed it to first of all be agreeable) but high sociability. Betas may have high sex drives particularly if they’re not so sociable or are Aspergery. (If they are sociable and have a high sex drive they’re probably at least a lesser alpha, or could be easily enough if they’d drop their herbish indoctrination, which is heavy days from grade school on.)
Herbs, if they aren’t passive aggressive (which they tend to be) are easy to live with and give girls a sense of comfortable security … and then boredom. Either the cute/pretty girl herself has a very low sex drive, she’ll be cheating soon, or she’s intensively programmed to be loyal by her parents and/or religion (increasingly rare in America and it always encounters gobs of counter programming in the media and through feminist memes left and right).
Herbs max out on the dad-mate side of the dad vs. cad dichotomy. Actually herbs illustrate that the alpha beta gamma continuum isn’t in itself adequate to fully describe what attracts females. Though it works pretty well to describe what girls will go for in casual sex partners, not to mention the extreme of that, one night stands. At least when girls are not in slut mode and want to “settle down”, the large majority of girls hot enough to have options want a guy who’s strong on the loyal mate-dad side, as well as having enough alpha cad edge to them to be sexually appealing. (The higher her sex drive the more she’s tend to want a lot of edge in the mix though, or else she’s kidding herself and will soon cheat, or planned that as a viable supplementary option all along.)
Some girls really emphasize the loyal mate-dad side. They’re always relationship girls or girls who’ve moved into LTR mode. These girls often go with herbs these days, now that feminism has made herbdom so acceptable, and even as a sort of ideal for many.
LikeLike
“It’s not even OK to hold your woman’s purse for a second so she can grab at something (let it drop to the floor or put it on a shelf if she tries to shove her purse in your hands)”
Eh. It depends. I agree that buying drinks and holding a purse is a demonstation of lower value (DLV)—which is a bad thing. But you shouldn’t do these things only if you’ve failed to establish your value as sufficiently high already. For instance, if Denzel Washington’s wife asked him to hold her pursue, it probably wouldn’t diminish him in her eyes—or that of any other woman. He’s too alpha and too badass for something like this to betaize him. The same principle applies here. All that is needed is to establish yourself as high enough value early on so that you can more than sustain an occasional DLV hit to your alpha cred.
But I agree there it’s never okay to wear a purse.
LikeLike
Gorbie, one theory I’ve heard on herbs…is that some career gals desire a doormat. That is, it’s more important for some girls to have a guy exist for her needs and be a cog in her baby care activities. Eventually, a herb gets selected for team career and biological clock placation. But I like the distinction based on sexlessness. Herbs don’t seem to function anymore, betas are trying to trade, white-knight, or barter for sex, and alphas…well…
LikeLike
j r,
You are corrected about the type of women who seek out herbs. Of course as we all know, the moment a real man enters the picture they will cheat on these sad excuses for men.
LikeLike
j r
Yeah but if they have any sex drive they’re about sure to cheat. The uber herb will forgive them too. Repeatedly. This merges into knowing cuckoldry. Which I’ve long predicted will be on the rise.
LikeLike
A guy who bangs one 9 a year is more alpha than a guy who seduces 10 different 5’s in one year. I cannot stress this enough. Banging ugly girls IS NOT ALPHA.
LikeLike
dragnet–
yeah, but he ought to tease her about it even so, while doing it.
However she’s likely, esp. if he doesn’t tease her, to see how far she can push it. It should be a rare thing even for a super alpha.
LikeLike
I’m going to guess herbs typically come from upper-middle class families and are raised from birth on the idea of female superiority. And likely their fathers as well. Herbs are probably lawyers of the toiling in the back room type or programmers, maybe primary care physicisns, professions that are lucrative but don’t involve much competition or head-to-head aggression.
Significant parts of the preppy upper-middle class have been like this for generations because the ideology of female superiority, or specifically the Protestant version, goes back to the Victorian era. This kind of woman and child oriented family life was first extolled back then; of course it could be afforded by only a few so it came to be regarded as a kind of status marker. So the herb regards himself as a superior sort of man living a superior sort of life; on top of everything else he’s a SWPL status whorer.
LikeLike
First off the last post had some amazing amazing comments.
I was schooled by some of the posters comments in the last entry.
Gorbachev is you live in NYC we should grab a beer.
Second: ill hold a girls bag, but i will fuck her in the ass later on that night.
I do not care what other people may think about me holding her bag- I am that secure enough that it doesn’t disturb me what others think about me holding that bag. Ill even buy tampons but ill make her blow me and swallow later on or before I go. I don’t give a shit about stuff like that.
This leads right into my herb comment.
Herbs are oblivious- they don’t worry much, and they don’t try to look cool. Those are two alpha traits. i have seen my fair share of herbs with some cute women. Better looking women that i could not have pulled before i learned game- i always wondered what the fuck was going on.
There is one caveat to the herb getting a girl- the girl has to chase him. So herbs need semi aggressive girls high t girls going after then. Herbs don’t seem to chase women very much- and the girls that chase them seem to be high t women in their early thirties with good jobs.
The girls then begin to dress and groom them.
But the herb guys don’t really listen very well- they could be slightly autistic.
but that slight autism can look to be slightly alpha as well.
LikeLike
It also seems the Cubs fan is shorter than his girlfriend.
Damn, this is the apparel of a herb?!?
LikeLike
Who says being a herb or a beta is mutually exclusive? But that’s right – herbs love feminazis because they excuse them from having to grow up as real men.
Keep it up Roissy, you’re back on top form!!
LikeLike
Reformed herb here. I shudder to think about all the khakis, button down shirts and white Hanes that used to hang in my closet. Got rid of them ages ago.
My gf back then cheated on me too, then lied about it.
Game is a good thing. Chateau, you’re doing God’s work here.
LikeLike
I’m surprised at you Roissy, you left out the easiest distinguishing feature in all of Herb-dom:
Mandals, the last word in Herb apparel.
LikeLike
My wife tried to get me to hold her purse once before we were married. I don’t think I had to say a word, but either way pretty quickly figured out it wasn’t cool. Somewhere along the way she stopped carrying a purse altogether, but she will carry a tote and carried a diaper bag when applicable. But the tote is UFC, and the diaper bag was camo (realtree as I recall). She almost never asks me to hold either but she makes it a point to always carry something which wouldn’t embarrass me if for some reason this was needed.
I’m of a different school of thought on baby carriages though. That is precious cargo, and I’m the strongest and best driver. Having a young child also really brings out the protective side in me. I say push the baby carriage, but do so with your concealed .45 cocked and locked. Oh, and the carriage better have big wheels because we are going off road.
LikeLike
Hey now—I’m 6’1 and I’ve had STRs with two women taller than me—both athletes. It was my pleasure cutting them down to size. If you have supreme confidence and your Game is tight, taming an Amazon can be a fun and rewarding experience.
LikeLike
As gay as holding her purse is, I think the fact that he’s in a store selling “recycled clothing” may be even worse. WTF?
LikeLike
He looks like a minority, and I thought herbs were SWPL. No herbs with minorities. Only betas, gangsters and wankstas.
LikeLike
*eyeroll*
seriously, I never realized alpha males were so delicate.
LikeLike
seriously, I never realized alpha males were so delicate.
I wouldn’t know. I’m pretty Beta.
LikeLike
Toronto woman sues Rogers Wireless after her affair is exposed
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/810236–toronto-woman-sues-rogers-after-her-affair-is-exposed
LikeLike
Doug1,
Awesome analysis. Sadly, applicable to myself, i.e. I think I fall into the herb situation.
The question is, what are the most crucial aspects that should be changed to nudge oneself over into more alpha territory, or at least to not be boring. I have a real problem with that because I have a high basal level of indifference to many things. I think that being more disagreeable and unreasonable would be helpful, but these are not natural positions.
LikeLike
She doesn’t even NEED him to hold her purse in this scenario.
That ‘man’ is owned.
LikeLike
the fact that he’s a scrubs fan is bad enough.
LikeLike
Wearing another man’s jersey = Beta
Yet another reason to reach for your phone and dial up that little Italian tailor and get him to whip you up a custom suit.
– MPM
LikeLike
By your classification, there are also many ‘betas’ who indulge in porn but would never marry(hence no harridan wives). They stay single, avoid dating, and would rather spend their enormous disposable income on hobbies (video games). Or they spend their time focusing on their careers, instead of chatting up harlots at the workplace.
I don’t think these guys are betas. They’re just ghosts. They have gone their own way to the extreme, gone ghost and are voluntarily celibate (not those whiny ‘incels’). Some guys are wired that way, or have a lower libido, so it works for them.
Reminds me of the ‘herbivores’ of Japan. They are neither herbs nor betas: just gone their own way. You know it works when the women start moaning about them being perpetual Peter Pans and not ‘growing up’ (femspeak shaming language for biting the bullet and marrying/having a LTR).
Betas are just simply two kinds of men:
1) Married men.
2) Unmarried men who long after a ‘special someone’ i.e a ‘soulmate’.
Herbs are simply men who have been thoroughly indoctrinated with feminism. As a result, they become perpetual pussy pedestallers, not so much as he wants to get laid, but more so because he sincerely believes women to be the superior sex. It’s very hard, but not entirely impossible, to undo his brainwashing.
LikeLike
Since I was a kid, my mom told me to never ever carry women’s purses or baby’s gear.
It’s fun to see a woman all crumbled with stuff while husband is lighting a cigarrete.
LikeLike
So this broad is an “Amazon alpha”. (Does she buy lots of books? Oh the OTHER Amazon.) Uhmm…what does that really mean? What is the top of the female heirarchy? Lovely,sweet,young feminine. Is that her? Or is she one of those large-boned tall girls that you might want to fuck,but you’re not sure,cause she’s a bit unsettling cuz a bit masculine,but it doesnt matter cuz she wouldnt fuck you unless you’re bigger than her and a bodybuilder…
LikeLike
How can someone be a non-beta herb?
LikeLike
Drunken-ness only makes it worse…people are more honest, show true colors and are more likely to do things that they normally wouldnt do in normal society…lets hope he was completely sober!!
I disagree with Dragnet…
“For instance, if Denzel Washington’s wife asked him to hold her pursue, it probably wouldn’t diminish him in her eyes—or that of any other woman. He’s too alpha and too badass for something like this to betaize him.”
The second she knows that you will hold her purse, buy her drinks, tie her shoe, etc. is the same second she knows she can pull the next tier of stunts.
To turn the table and reverse the role: you’ve never fucked your wife in the ass…you start by tickling her anus…she doesnt say anything then the next night you insert your thumb in her ass while you are hitting it from behind… once again that flys and you then the next time you pull out and stick your dick in her ass…right??
Well, the next time you want to brown your meat you go straight for the oven (there is no need to tickle nor thumb) … same process with women…first it’s the purse, then it’s going to the all male review with coworkers, then it’s getting drunk and being gangbanged by a high school baseball team… and now youre a cuckold beta…
LikeLike
@Dalrock
Your wife has tricked you into carrying these things…tread carefully friend, tread carefully…
LikeLike
When I’m seriously banging a hot chick, I notice that this seems to be something that crops up early if you’re out during the day in any shopping area. It’s a test, subconscious or not. I have a strict rules about purse holding or clothing shopping or any other quasi-Beta test behaviour. They’re all the same.
“I’m supposed to hold your stuff?” is my first response.
“So I’m a coat rack. Right.” Put purse down on counter, make like I’m casually guarding it. If she’s picking out clothing and trying to get me to give opinions, I start casually looking around at the other inevitably hot chicks buying clothing in the store; not conspicuous, but no attempt to hide it.
So I guard (not hold) her purse, therefore not being a dick, but she loses my attention and doesn’t get it back until she’s done, comes over
I make it clear through suprasegmental features in my speech or my choice of words or my body language: I might do it, but I might not.
I back it up by not doing it about 65% of the time. And then I play annoyed gentleman 35%.
Sometimes I’ll gladly hold it and seem happy about it. About 5% of the time.
I’ve gotten “Oh, Okay, thanks.” And real appreciation when I do it.
Keep her off balance. Always off balance.
If she’s trying on clothing, I sit down and wait for her to come out and show me her clothing, twirl a bit, a fashion show. I give her honest opinions (show I have fashion sense, neg her slightly: “Great dress, but your ass looks too big in that.” You get away with it because you’re giving honest fashion advice, and she appreciates that, so the negs sting but she can’t do sfa about it: You can almost neg her as much as you want and sound like you’re being cool, calm and disinterested. It’s awesome.)
If she’s trying on clothing, I make like I’m putting up with her wasting my time. Putting up with it: nothing more.
The point is not holding her bag or not.
People. There’s a way to do it and a way not to do it. it’s all attitude.
But walking around holding her bag, … if you’ve got to do it:
Drop it to the side, like you’re holding a weapon or a bag of dog shit, and you’re looking for the garbage. Or that you’re suffering this, but then make sure she sees you looking at other women.
All of this, when she sees you doing it, some percentage of the time, says three things to her: OKAY, He’s Alpha (subconscious). I’ve got him to do something for me, conquered him (barely conscious). He’s resisting, makes me want to get him to bow down; he won’t. But sometimes.
Let her win. Sometimes. Then make her know you’re doing it on sufferance. Barely.
Do it all without saying one word, and get extra points.
Straddle the line: Don’t be a dick. But make it clear: She’s pushing it.
Actually, this goes for everything women do. You suffer her presence because she rides your cock. She rides it harder when she knows this.
LikeLike
When we are on our own we manage to carry our own purses while engaged in a multitude of different activities.
FFS do not hold our purses.
LikeLike
I hope he’s wearing that purse because he lost some kind of bet to her.
LikeLike
Herbs are more the result of low testosterone (enviornmental pollution? Plastics?).
Betas are the result of a poor education about women – from father, older men, and listening to women about women.
They can be mixed, they can be fixed – one by game and the other by getting HRT.
LikeLike
G Manifesto,
I see your point about the jersey, however it seems like most sports team wear has a specific player’s name on it. My mom bought my husband a t-shirt that had a Phillies player name on it. My husband isn’t even that big of a sports fan, but he still does wear it.
I think if a man is alpha enough he can get away with holding a woman’s purse for a short time. Also, carrying baby gear is just being a good father. I don’t see what is so alpha about letting your wife carry everything.
If a guy is alpha enough he doesn’t have to worry too much about it. If he is not that alpha I guess he has to be aware of every little detail. Honestly if he is alpha enough these things are actually slightly sexy.
LikeLike
herbs probably produce more children than alphas. They will slowly breed alphas out of existence and eventually take over the human race.
LikeLike
G man is actually right. Following sports or wearing a jersey is textbook beta. You have basically identified the alpha of the pack you chose to follow. Your basically one step away from being that guy who let Woody Harrelson sleep with his girl in Semi-pro. But really, it’s just good clean fun.
LikeLike
Nah, mormons, muslims and extremely religious christian/chatholics will outbreed everyone. Herbs merely have a few, probably cuckolds.
LikeLike
Catholics even.
LikeLike
Sally C is right. She can make due when you’re not there. There’s no reason to ever hold her purse no matter what justification she’s managed to confuse you with.
My buddy met an herb at a ball game and he was holding her purse while she was in the bathroom. He points it out and herb came at him with girl’s bathrooms are disgusting and if she puts in on the floor then it will get dirty and then when it’s on the kitchen counter later it will still be dirty…etc..w/e herb
LikeLike
Actually, on the whole beta purse carrying thing, one essence of the beta is white knighting and access through providing. If you volunteer to carry the purse in hopes of impressing the girl with your willingness to serve: beta. Less beta, possibly even alpha, would be…um…compliance (give me that thing, what are you doing holding all that stuff) or accepting the purse on your own terms (I am holding this for the count of 10) or?
LikeLike
To have a rigid rule that you’ll never hold your established gf’s purse even for a brief moment to help her out when she has some genuine need of help (or it’s much easier for her) is inflexible and insecure, which are not alpha qualities. Though it’s rather hard to come up with situations where you’d really have to do it, if she only cari
To have a general rule that you don’t hold women’s purses for them is alpha. She shouldn’t take along a purse she can’t fully deal with. Saying “that’s what tucking it under your arm is for” or “that’s why some purses have straps that go over a girl’s shoulder” is alpha and yes important.
You really need to neg/tease her over any request that you hold her purse even for a second. If necessary and she draws you into it, sure say you really don’t like holding girl’s purses, even for a moment. Own that. Doing the opposite and being successfully shamed into holding it regularly for her on the theory that for that to bother you is “insecure” is way beta (or omega).
LikeLike
“Nah, mormons, muslims and extremely religious christian/chatholics will outbreed everyone.”
The herb ones of those.
” Herbs merely have a few, probably cuckolds.”
Not likely. They are overwhelmingly their own children. Yes, there are studies.
LikeLike
“a schlumpy, nondescript white guy with no fashion sense, chin, or sexual gravitas”
And there it is, the chin thing! The almighty strong jaw VS the god awful weak chin. I swear to god, had I not had a Simpsons face, I would have been one of the biggest players in my day! I grew a godamn goatee as soon as hormonally possible, which was around 20, and it didn’t fill out till I was 22ish, and it made a huge fucking difference. I got looks from women for the first time in my life. I think overcoming a small chin as a man has to be a true sign of inner Alphaness, (so what if I did cheat with the goatee). AAAAah! Why god, why did I have to bear the cross of the weak chin? Why did I have to suffer the scarlet letter of the baby faced man-boy! Why! What were you preparing me for?
LikeLike
what is beta about having a dog?
LikeLike
You just have to learn how to hold a purse like an Alpha.
I start by going through it for loose cash or embarrassing items (Why do you have 7 tampons in here? You planning on getting marooned on an island sometime today?), and then I drop it by my feet and kick it around a little like I’m a bored kid. I can’t remember the last time my wife asked me to hold her purse, come to think of it? Wonder why?
LikeLike
ASF–
Answering your question is what this whole blog of Chateau’s is about.
Being disagreeable or straight up unreasonable is not what the essence of being more alpha is. Instead think of them as things to worry less about avoiding. The essence is getting her to chase you, rather than the reverse, and being socially leading or dominant as much as you can, step by step, rather than the reverse. Not by ordering around, but by inducing people and your target to want to follow you. This blog is choc a bloc about specific suggestions and little moves on how to start doing this.
If you’re in a relationship you’re mostly happy with (or were and you want to “get back the magic”) the first thing to do would be to 1) find Chateau’s relationship game week post that has lengthy excepts from “Dave from Hawaii’s” comments from time to time on this blog over the last couple of years illustrating how game works in relationships (and how to somewhat adapt game for that purpose), and is in fact crucial in them; and 2) check out Athol Kay’s blog. Google site search here for the first (relationship game week dave from hawaii) and general google for the second. As a general matter, about all of what Roissy recommends for pickup game, other than openers, works and is important in relationship game as well.
If you’re a herb as Roissy defines it above, you have sociability going for you. You do comfort well or great. Girls like you, just in to much of a LJBF way. (Herbs in relationships have gf’s who think they value comfortable companionship over strong sexual attraction, at least in relationships.) Now you need to bring in drive and ambition and as much social dominance as you can manage. Ambition to just experience diverse things and lead her into sharing them can work for starters.
Indifference to things that don’t interest you is alpha. Feigned indifference to being lead around is either herb or beta. Indifference to everything is omega.
LikeLike
My son’s friend’s father is really handsome. I always noticed it, but never thought too much of him. Then one time he did some minor nice thing for my son and ever since then I’ve had a bit of a crush on him. It showed me he had manners and class in addition to being good looking. I guess it just depends on the context of the situation and the man. I don’t think poor social skills are attractive in a man or a woman. I always hold the door for people behind me, it’s just being polite.
LikeLike
I think this herb/beta/alpha classification misses a group of men (i’m thinking of myself a few of my friends) who have had enough experience that pursuing women through bars and traditional routes (classic alpha) is no longer fun. I have more fun flirting with women while filling up my gas tank or at the public library than at bars. If they ask for my number I give it to them but the traditional chase is no longer exciting.
LikeLike
I was about to post a link about this Canadian b***
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/17/gabriella-nagy-claims-cel_n_578699.html
but someone else did it first.
LikeLike
if you’re wondering whether you should hold your girlfriend’s purse when she asks, pay attention to how she asks.
does she ask nicely, in a sweet voice and give you eyes that say, “i know i’m being annoying but please hold this for me and later i’ll make it up by tossing your salad”? or does she just hold her bag out like she expects you to take it and say something like, “here”? if it’s the latter, don’t even think about taking it.
if she’s asking nicely, it’s fine to take it every once in a while; especially if she really is going to toss your salad later.
LikeLike
This is all about getting women.
But remember: betas don’t finish last. They get often attractive 34-year-old women to sleep with them and have friendly relationships with them and often have fulfilling lives.
However, the alphas get to bang 21-28 year old super hot chicks on their whim and as they see fit. They may be bitter when they’re 50, but, …
They can also settle with a nice 34-year-old when they’re 40 if they want to. Same deal.
It’s not like betas can’t get women. It’s just that women choose alphas first.
Depends on what you want. I did the beta-marriage thing. I did it all properly. But if you ask me if I have regrets, …
I regret not gaming chicks when I was 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28.
I’ve had lots of wasted, wasted years to make up for.
Any man who tastes this wine and says he doesn’t like it is a bald-faced, delusional liar of epic proportions.
LikeLike
My sex drive is so large I had to install a throttle to restrict the flow of juice.
LikeLike
It’s perfectly acceptable to wear your wife or girlfriend’s purse. When it’s full of hand grenades. And you are raiding the enemy’s trenches.
The bigger issue IMNHO is the damned jock sniffers who insist on wearing professional teams’ sports paraphenalia out in public. The occasional ballcap is OK, as is wearing something in the stands at a home game. Even wearing the jersey of your national team as a giant “eff you” when visiting foreign countries might be OK. But take off the expensive replica black guy’s shirt you pudgy white dudes.
LikeLike
Perhaps it is that they are oblivious to their self-defeating behavior, and so attract the type of women for whom dating an oblivious man suits their agenda.
Or perhaps the whole Roissy worldview is extremely simplistic and doesn’t explain everything?
LikeLike
Something most people won’t notice about “beta boy”…
Note he has the name of another man on his back…
Specifically MLB baseball player Kerry Wood…
“beta – wants to be alpha”… subtly goes along with this statement
Personally I could never get over the idea of celebrating another man to the degree that I would wear his name on my back….
LikeLike
Rossi, I think you flushed out a lot of herbs with this one.
Listen carefully, guys,
NEVER FUCKING HOLD A WOMAN’S FUCKING PURSE.
Was that not clear enough? this listen to this:
NEVER, FUCKING EVER FUCKING HOLD A FUCKING WOMAN’S FUCKING PURSE YOU STUPID FUCKING HERBS!
I hope you got it that time.
The first time you hold a purse, she will be on the phone with her mom bragging how she is getting you trained. Next thing you know, she is going to complain that she is cold, and you get up and turn up the heat. And, she’ll take the blankets, letting you freeze your ass of.
If she’s cold, tell her to climb on your dick and fuck the shit out of it, or she can sleep with your dick up her ass so she can have some of your body heat.
LikeLike
I’ve held my wife’s purse from time to time for one reason. It contains a handgun. Leaving it on a shelf or the floor is asking for trouble. I don’t wear the damned thing though. Maybe I need to buy her an IWB holster like mine so nobody takes a ‘herb’ pic of me.
LikeLike
OneSTDV
It also seems the Cubs fan is shorter than his girlfriend.
my white Hanes(!!!) undershirt is poking through my button-up polo-style work shirt, I usually wear white athletic socks after hours
Damn, this is the apparel of a herb?!?
In this video you can see the “Apparel of the Herb” contrasted with the ways of the extreme Douche Bag.
“…….RUDDERLESS!”
LikeLike
The Shoulders of Defeat….hahahaha, that’s an all-time classic.
LikeLike
There is no legitimate reason to hold a woman’s bag. If she hands it to you, put it on the ground. It ain’t going to melt if it touches the ground. Here’s how I rolled the last time some douche wanted me to hold her purse while she did something else.
1) Laugh at her
2) When she insists, put the thing on the ground, laugh some more
3) When she fakes indignant anger, make fun of her
The main danger to this is she may grind your dick off later that evening.
As for herbs, there are quite a few of them who do well for the reason gay dudes do well. They’re basically girls inside, and so they relate to women like their chick friends. They’re also seemingly indifferent, which as some people point out, attracts high-T women. IMO, it’s a valid strategy in certain subcultures; I knew hipster dudes back in the day who raked in the chooch this way. No way to go through life though.
LikeLike
Basically, the reason betas and herbs have such different levels of success is their inner game. The herb may be an socially retarded idiot with a schlubby fashion sense but he is often the kind of guy who just bulldozes his way through life. He is often completely unable to engage in any kind of introspection. He has no self doubts.
So, the herb frequently can score an LTR with a woman well above his apparent attractivenss level. However, his lack of introspection or even basic self awareness will usually limit his success. He cannot grow and his confidence alone will only carry him so far with women. You rarely see a herb with a truly beautiful woman.
LikeLike
As for herbs, there are quite a few of them who do well for the reason gay dudes do well. They’re basically girls inside, and so they relate to women like their chick friends. They’re also seemingly indifferent, which as some people point out, attracts high-T women. IMO, it’s a valid strategy in certain subcultures
Isn’t this basically how Jewish people work…the men are very beta…yet the women are very aggressive and masculine.
TG
LikeLike
The herb may be an socially retarded idiot with a schlubby fashion sense but he is often the kind of guy who just bulldozes his way through life. He is often completely unable to engage in any kind of introspection. He has no self doubts.
This is absolutely true.
Total lack of self-awareness of one’s own defects = herb.
Actual or dawning self-awareness but inability to do anything about it = beta.
This is the tragedy.
And people say self-knowledge is beneficial. Far better (at least if one doesn’t have the capacity or motivation to improve) to live in blissful ignorance.
PS I also believe this applies generally. The person so stupid that he has no concept of his own stupidity will do better any day than the moderately stupid person who has some awareness of his own limitations. Examples: manifold.
LikeLike
TG: “Isn’t this basically how Jewish people work…the men are very beta…yet the women are very aggressive and masculine.”
Indeed: Shebrews and Asian women (most kinds anyway) are generally pretty aggressive, and make excellent matches for herb. In the two photos Roissy posts of herbs with their identifiable mates, one is asian, and the other looks pretty jewy to me: so, my unified field theory of herb females has some win.
LikeLike
So no undershirt with a button up? What is the recommendation here, to unbutton the top couple buttons, showing off a hairy, orange-tanned chest, guido-style? Or not wearing any button up, opting instead for some prole douchebag t-shirt?
And I guess since athletic socks are for herbs, sneakers are also? I mean, what else can you wear with them?
Maybe we should all follow Mystery and Style’s lead and wear platform shoes, top hats, feather boas and light-up shirts.Now that’s totally alpha and not at all embarrassing.
Seriously though, Roissy you should dish out some positive, actionable fashion advice along with the negative.
LikeLike
like i said.
herbs display alpha traits.
not caring what others think and no self doubt.
herbs go their own way.
herbs need high t women to open and close them though.
betas try too hard and that is their downfall.
i can be quite an ass- quite an ass. Me holding their purse or buying dinner on the occasional blue moon sort of balances the scales.
she thinks there is something else aside from ass there.
if you are more nice than ass then don’t do it.
but if you are more ass than nice- you can hold the bag or buy tampons once in a while.
after you hold the bag, and you get home tell her you to give you a blowjob, and to make some dinner- the scales will once again be even.
LikeLike
Beta: Holds the purse, resentfully.
Herb: Wears a purse (fanny pack, satchel etc)
Omega: Talks a good game about how he’s such a tough guy because he can dis purse holding on the internet. Grrr. Mocking purse holding. hear ’em roar.
Alpha: Holds the purse, actually. Nonchalantly and chivalrously holds his girlfriend’s purse while he talks to his wife on his cell phone and picks up another chick with his body language. Trust. I would know.
LikeLike
@ Doug1
Good thoughts in your last post, as usual. A lot people (mostly women) just don’t get that Game really isnt about being “alpha” to the exclusion of everything else. It’s really about being the right combination of alpha & beta. This blog talks about alpha behavior so much because that’s what 99 percent of western men lack.
So true. Notice, the key isn’t to become so much of an alpha asshole that women detest you or to completely excise the beta aspects of your character. They key is to combine your natural likeability with social dominance to make a complete package.
But I take issue with this small piece:
This is true of most of these women—but it wouldn’t surprise me that a small minority of these women might actually be sexually attracted to herbs. I definitely think there were women attracted to herbs & betas thousands of years ago—but they were weeded out of gene pool because their chump husbands weren’t alpha enough to keep them safe in a cold, cruel world. These days you don’t need an alpha’s resources to survive and reproduce so I’m perfectly willing to believe that a small minority of women are actually attracted to these guys and are successfully reproducing thanks to the industrial revolution, modern healthcare and effective policing. And furthermore I believe the number of women attracted to beta chumps will only increase going forward…but it’s starting from such a small number that the impact won’t really be felt for sometime.
But I’m willing to bet are no herbs with children in Afghanistan or Somalia—only alphas.
LikeLike
Feministx,
Good analysis.
LikeLike
we all know most women like men that are dicks or asses.
the question is why?
for most of human history women were basically owned by men.
this may be controversial and not very pc- but perhaps there is something genetically coded in women that…
i dont believe that we have advanced enough in the last 50 years or so to eradicate what took thousands of years to develop.
LikeLike
Meant to say- recorded human history which spans thousands of years. But if it is genetic it could have been wired for hundreds of thousands or million of years.
homo sapiens have existed as it for the last 200k years i believe.
LikeLike
How about your own personal definitive list of essentials on required behavior for being an “alpha” male, Roissy? I’m still new, but a lot of the reading is geared towards treating symptoms or what not to do.
A list of the right habits would be awesome – for instance,
1. always date more than one woman at a time
2. don’t cuddle
3. 1 word for every 2 of hers
4. change subjects abruptly
5. drag her around like you don’t care
etc…
LikeLike
I’d really like to have high-T aggressive women chase me. These women are usualy fun to hang out with and fuck. How can I get this to happen? I’m probably more of a higher beta than a herb.
LikeLike
jack i–
volunteer at the organic food co-op, go to feminist lectures and meetings.
start hanging out with a bunch of lawyers.
LikeLike
heh. the high-T aggressive women are usually messes and require a lot of shoulder patting and listening to long, lame, painful recounts of ridiculous drama. Might be worth it if you’re in your early 20s and want some “training” in the bedroom, but as an adult male I don’t know how one would put up with the attendant nightmare. I find drama amusing, far more than any guy I’ve ever met, and I find it exhausting.
or such is my experience as a friend to a slew of female lawyers, bankers, and ‘artists’.
LikeLike
This blog talks about alpha behavior so much because that’s what 99 percent of western men lack.
This is a good point. There are actually a lot of guys out there (more than 1% actually, but rhetorical point taken) whose relationships would improve with more softness and sensitivity and less aloofness and assholishness.
Most guys however have the opposite problem: they supplicate too much and are too needy etc. Since such wimpiness is the most common problem, game material is written to help these latter guys. But one shouldn’t forget that being too beta isn’t the only way you can screw things up.
LikeLike
I already meet tons of these women – I’m in LAW SCHOOL. I interned at a DA’s office. Lots of hot women who might be insufferable in a relationship but seem like they’d be great in the sack. The point is I want them to CHASE me like apparently the herbs get. These women might have drama but all women do, and the aggressive types are the ones you can drink and eat wings with at the sports bar before fucking. I want to know the secret to getting them to chase me rather than the other way around.
LikeLike
“a schlumpy, nondescript white guy with no fashion sense…who has managed to hook up with a cute chick. Herbs usually wear…button down collar shirts with the Hanes undershirt peaking through at the neck…an extra-large t-shirt to hide his man boobs. …The fact that a herb will have usually managed to score a cute yuppie chick will fill you with violent feelings toward him.”
So then what constitutes a “non-herb”, given that even archetypal douchebags can be found wearing baggy khaki “cargo” shorts and button-up t-shirts? Muscle? Dress clothes? A good-quality suit? Fitted t-shirts?
Do you need to look like the meathead douchebags who are always jabbering about MMA and their latest steroid stack?
LikeLike
Apply the Bond rule.
Would James Bond consent to holding his pussy’s purse while she shopped?
Nope. No chance.
Anyway, why should an alpha be out shopping with his gf in the first place? He should be out riding a motorbike/driving a car, preferably with a sweet popsy behind/beside him.
I personally prefer the Aston Martin DBS. Quite a lot of leg space, so the sweet can give me head while I’m cruising the Autostrada and looking at the hot bitch speeding by in the Mercedes Silver Arrow.
LikeLike
Jack.
If they aren’t chasing you- you aren’t herb enuf. And if in l school they aren’t old enuf. 30ish is the magic number. They need a few alphas to p and d them first.
LikeLike
Remember they go after herbs not betas.
LikeLike
uh huh.
act like a herb, duh. or be indifferently a suckup.
LikeLike
Nonchalantly and chivalrously are opposing terms.
anyways, there should be a section called “Spot the Beta!” where people post photos
LikeLike
Or, herbs have an attractiveness that can’t be deduced from a pic or a sidelong glance.
I definitely have herb characteristics including the man-boobs but I’m funny, smart, challenging, and immovable by shit tests. And I’m a freak x 10 in bed.
LikeLike
Roissy,
Herb: Silent ‘h’ or not?
[editor: pronounce the h. this isn’t french cooking class.]
And what’s the etymology?
[zeets’ father.]
LikeLike
No undershirts? What, are we supposed to unbutton down to the sternum to show off our medallions?
LikeLike
Remember the hangover? You had the 4 man types represented. Alpha, higher beta, beta and herb.
The fat herb was alpha in many ways. He did not know he was a tard nor did he care what others thought. He just did what he wanted to do, dressed the way he wanted to, and ate, drank, and drugged it up- just like he wanted to. A beta can learn from an herb to not give a shit what others think about you, and to do as you please, when you please it. Soo many fake cool “alpha” people care about appearances and looking cool that they really just are pathetic betas.
The herb (slightly) retard, (fat dude in the movie) will *always get more free pussy than the beta dentist. The beta dentist was lucky to get a hooker. But the dentist was dating a high-t pain in the ass that cheated on him. Even the fat herb knew the beta dentist was a wimp for staying with the high-t cheat.
*This is providing the herb doesn’t look or act too retarded.
That high-t bitch needed to (and would be happier) date the herb. Remember at the end how the herb and the high-t lady were rapping with each other?
Alphas fuck women.
Betas covet them.
Herbs don’t care if they fuck or don’t fuck women.
Retards- are retards.
All herbs are slightly retarded in some way or another- some can be geniuses.
LikeLike
@feministx,
Alpha: Holds the purse, actually. Nonchalantly and chivalrously holds his girlfriend’s purse while he talks to his wife on his cell phone and picks up another chick with his body language. Trust. I would know.
Okay. This is fine. So long as girlfriend knows he’s doing it. Hold the purse or do anything submissive while checking out other chicks. Preferably getting their phone numbers.
See if chickeepoo asks him to hold her purse again.
LikeLike
Another data point on Herbs being basically women: ever notice how they will suck up to the AMOG and hate hate hate beta males?
LikeLike
Jack–
Read the archives (and for extra credit a selective group of the commenters here). That’s what this blog is all about.
Though Roissy doesn’t explain how herbs in particular do it, rather than alphas of some sort, or guys who appear alpha to the girl in question (generally a less hot girl). Frankly I’m a bit skeptical about that.
Well maybe herbs do avoid desperately chasing. But I think their game is more passive. They don’t so much consciously induce girls to come after them, as avoid really turning girls off by appearing to have few options. Generally DHVing especially on the mate-dad side as opposed to the thrilling cad side.
LikeLike
P
Another illustration of why I think herbs are a thin reed away from being knowing and accepting cuckolds.
LikeLike
Thursday–
LTR’s yes.
Pickups and success at casual sex much less so, unless they are going after a girl that i) feels in danger of being outclassed in hotness; and ii) really, really doesn’t want casual sex with the guy even if she is discarded after a roaring good time.
LikeLike
+1 on Roissy’s writing more style advice. He seems to know WTF he’s talking about.
We know how a herb walks. How does an alpha walk?
(I learned how an alpha stands at this blog, and that simple, practical advice noticeably changed the way I am perceived by others. More!)
LikeLike
dragnet–
Thanks.
There are likely few publicly obvious herbs there, with children or otherwise, agreed. Herbs are a product of i) strong female empowerment and ii) feminist ideology that women shouldn’t automatically or better ever follow their husbands, but instead be “fully equal” with him, which in practice must usually be demonstrated by his following her wishes and her lead whenever she wants that, which she’s encouraged to want.
But there will be lots of betas in those places for sure. Maybe a smaller percentage than in the modern west, esp. the Angloshere where feminism is strongest. There are worker drones everywhere, and many of them do get married and have children in traditional societies. In all polygamous societies, by far most marriages are monogamous and in the vast majority the overwhelming majority are. (It was useful for their leaders that this be the case. Leaders need current and future followers, including worker drones or men to round out the raiding party, in a following capacity only. These men have to be rewarded with what counts. They also need to produce on average follower progeny.)
There’s I think both an absolute quality of being a beta male, and a relative one, for another thing. This allows the percentage of betas in a society to vary with its culture, but won’t allow for the non existence of betas, or anything very close to that. Not everyone can be a leader or have the highest status in the village, or be in the top two or three. If anything in modern society there are more spheres in which to establish leadership, though there’s also a vastly larger effective “village”, especially for urbanites, which tends to cut the other way.
Women are naturally attracted to what we could call “natural” high status. That is the kind of status that emerges when a group of men and women are thrown together where their official position is unimportant under the circumstances. Status that derives from how they handle themselves in a small or medium sized group when there’s no established and imposed rule of what status each must occupy, or they’re sufficiently equal in official status that individually manifest qualities take primacy in who will lead. Survival situations of many kinds are like that. Such as isolated on an uninhabited island situations, or true emergency ones. (Dramas are constantly mining this lode, and the emergent leader is about always sexy to females, if he induces his followers to do so, rather than somehow coerces them alone.)
Normally outside of such extraordinary circumstances (reminiscent of hunter gather bands from the late Pleistocene), some of the official status will bleed over to a girl’s instinctual attraction, but it won’t come close to overcoming real weakness in his individual qualities. E.g. not all kings of the same realm are equally attractive to girls. Not even close. Though some hot women and high status women are always going to want to marry the king, or even almost always be his rewarded mistress, no matter how much of a weakling. (Though in extreme cases and permissive ages she’s likely to cuckold him, yes even the official hierarchical, rather than emergent king.)
You have to remember that through human history and prehistory, most marriages were arranged. Rarely was female sexual attraction choice given a high priority, though she might sometimes have a veto within a usually very limited range of choices. Really high status rich men rarely had to take an ugly wife, but her looks were less important than her status and wealth. More a point of veto, which couldn’t always be exercised if his parents married him off young. This was true of rich peasants as well as aristos. Even in H&G bands marriage was usually arranged and decided more by status within the band, rather than individual providing ability. Generally it would be with brides from another band, to cement or forge an alliance with them or seal ending a conflict. (The original peace treaty.) Sometimes they might instead be snatched in bride raids and again parceled out according to status, though with some attention to performance in that raid as well.
When female sexual choice was particularly important before now in the West or heavily western influenced societies, was in our pre Homo sapiens primate and emergent genus homo past. Complex language and culture that co-evolved with fully modern humans’ brains changed a lot, and brought arranged or semi arranged marriages, I think from the get go, looking at hunter gatherer tribes that exist today or did exist when they were first studied, around the world.
LikeLike
Jesus. I would never ask a man to hold my purse. Let alone a sparkly shining number that announces to everyone your man is carrying your purse
don’t get why it’s such a bad thing for a man to hold his woman’s purse. I guess it’s also bad for a man to change his kid’s diaper too.
I saw a guy holding his daughter’s hello kitty purse recently. I wanted to tease him(hey sir, nice bag) only because he looked uncomfortable holding her bag but thought better of it since he looked like a strong man competitor.
LikeLike
Jack I: “I want to know the secret to getting them to chase me rather than the other way around.”
I’ll tell you the secret. Act like you might like it up the butt with a strap on. I’m not kidding. And, no, I don’t swing this way, but this is a very accurate way of describing herb’s game. If you can’t act this way, you won’t be chased by high testosterone women. Many hipster herbs are kind of open to this sort of thing -probably the origin of them looking like they shat their pants. I’ve known quite a few from club days who would actually talk about taking it up the poop chute from some tattooed virago (presumably that was their way of finding a date). Of course, it’s a real danger that they might actually try to fuck you in the asshole, but if you’re going to be passive, grin and bear it.
Otherwise, you have to man up and do it the proper way.
LikeLike
@chic noir
Jesus. I would never ask a man to hold my purse. Let alone a sparkly shining number that announces to everyone your man is carrying your purse
don’t get why it’s such a bad thing for a man to hold his woman’s purse. I guess it’s also bad for a man to change his kid’s diaper too.
I saw a guy holding his daughter’s hello kitty purse recently. I wanted to tease him(hey sir, nice bag) only because he looked uncomfortable holding her bag but thought better of it since he looked like a strong man competitor.
Nope. You got it wrong. Purses, no. Never cater to the woman.
But Diapers are hot. So are daughters’ stuff. Kids are babe magnets.
I have nieces and nephews and when I take them out, and dote on them, the response from women is like plugging me directly into their hindbrain.
Seriously, if you want to get the hot chick and her friend walking on the beach, borrow a friend’s child (better if it’s a relative) and go out for a stroll. Take them to a kids’ show. Hang out with the new moms.
This is especially Score with the 30-35 crowd (childless). You up your Mateability score by about 2.5 points right off the bat.
VERY IMPORTANT: Do not look like a harried dad. You have to be competent, caring, considerate and cooly protective. Genuinely like the kids, women can smell fakery like pigs smell shit.
You can claw a woman right out of her beta boyfriend’s clutches before he blinks. It’s un-befreaking-lievable.
Try it some time.
*Gold* my friends. *Gold*.
LikeLike
Carrying a woman’s purse is not alpha. Women know it.
Chivalry generally gets you nothing.
Test it but don’t expect anything.
*BUT*
LOOKING AFTER KIDS
Competently looking after kids can be Electrifying Alpha.
Just watch the women stare at the big strong (or small but alpha) guy who manages two brats carefully and easily.
You have to fend off the comments, the openers, the women. You automatically become 2 points higher in overall Hotness.
Any woman who denies this is a barren shrew. I’ve seen it for years. I have nieces and nephews and I’ve tested it.
Make sure women find out they’re your nieces or nephews, and not yours (maybe even sometimes yours, actually, I never tested this, that would be deep game).
Once they see this and see you’re not saddled with any of your own – yet – you basically just have to avoid fucking up
to fuck them.
After this, you can almost do Relaxed Game and take them home.
Try it people.
LikeLike
Fem X said:
“herbs probably produce more children than alphas. They will slowly breed alphas out of existence and eventually take over the human race.”
–spot on.
Master Beta,
–too funny.
LikeLike
There should be a post about man boobs….my god is there anything worse? How weird would it be to run your hands across the chest of a man and you’re left holding a b-cup? This has never happened to me, thankfully.
LikeLike
Gorbachev is right. I find it attractive if a man is good with children. It also gives a girl something to talk to you about and diffuses the tension a little. It’s awkward to talk to another adult out of the blue, but it might be easier for her to talk to a kid first.
LikeLike
Herb. One variation or another of what you describe fashion-wise was what I wore for years. Only recently (9 months) have I switched up to something a bit more classy.
This is an interesting discussion. I knew I didn’t fit “beta” really. Herb seems to describe what I was.
LikeLike
chic noir–
Yes it is Chic most definitely, as a normal routine activity. That’s always been women’s work before 2nd wave and later feminism, and naturally definitely is so. The sexes are not identical.
Those who feel differently are WAY feminism propagandized. Check yourselves.
LikeLike
dragnet,
You do realize that women in Afghanistan and Somalia have little choice in picking their mates, right? Therefore, it could very well be that those women are also attracted to herbs, just like a lot of Western women.
LikeLike
Laura–
Kids are one thing. There most definitely.
Infants are another.
No the man shouldn’t be allergic to his infant, and should be affectionate, but he shouldn’t share the woman’s work of changing diapers on anything other than an emergency or at least unusual basis either.
LikeLike
@Dat_Truth_Hurts
[QUOTE]Herbs are more the result of low testosterone (enviornmental pollution? Plastics?).[/QUOTE]
I’m thinking more nurture, and more about what they aren’t exposed to than what they are. These guys remind me of cattle. They aren’t predators, and they don’t know they are prey. Throughout nearly all of human history every man would have had the experience of killing the food they eat. Now we have entire cities of people who would be horrified at the thought of gutting a fish while it is still squirming and cooking it on the spot. The day I helped quarter an elk and pack it back to camp had much the same primal feeling as the day I held my newborn daughter. Some guys probably need this kind of primal reminder of what it means to be a man more than others.
LikeLike
Small foodstuffs, that you call kids, are hilarious. While their adult counterparts seem to be disturbed whenever they witness me devouring one of their kind, kids seem to love it. The more theatrical and spectacular I make my meal, the more they squeal in joy.
I cannot fathom anyone not enjoying spending some time with the little bags of laughs.
LikeLike
@doug1
Kids are one thing. There most definitely.
Infants are another.
No the man shouldn’t be allergic to his infant, and should be affectionate, but he shouldn’t share the woman’s work of changing diapers on anything other than an emergency or at least unusual basis either.
Don’t do the work. I get that.
Older kids:
My nieces / nephews are all 4-11, so I can’t run baby-assisted game. It’s still good. BUT
I’ve seen Baby-Assisted Game.
It’s Nuclear-powered game. It causes subsidiary explosions in women’s brains.
Running this is just plain unfair.
* Don’t do labour. Pass the tot back to your sister or whatever. But cooo-cooing them a bit, being good with them, … holding them, being good with them.
Holding one hand while they learn how to walk.
I swear you can smell women getting wet a hundred feet away.
(* Don’t be Beta. That’s when you get the subsidiary explosions in the female brain).
LikeLike
Am I the only one who, when a woman asks me to hold her purse, takes money out of it while she does whatever she needs to do?
LikeLike
What am I supposed to wear, other than button-up collared shirts? Maybe a feathery vest with gold sequins ala Mystery? Are jockey undershirts approved?
Seriously, somebody post some non-gay, non-guido, non-peacock douche-fag attire recommendations.
LikeLike
“Holding one hand while they learn how to walk.
I swear you can smell women getting wet a hundred feet away.”
Isn’t this the ultimate combination of alpha and beta?
Beta (obv) because you are playing the dad role, AND demonstrating value as an alpha male because you are leading another human, who has entrusted his or her tiny little life to you?
LikeLike
Doug, when I wrote that I thought of you 🙂
I could never marry a man who refuses to help with childcare. Even if I really wanted kids, I would probably do without if I had to do all the work by myself. Men bond with their children while changing nappies.
I refuse to work 9-5 then come home to another job. It’s no wonder many women look older than there husbands do. Unless the husband does a physically intense job, save me the crap about being exhausted.
LikeLike
Where’s smarty pants Cannon?
That man makes me smitten like a kitten!!
meow meow
LikeLike
As a guy who spent years as a herb, I’ve got to say that, if you’re a goodhearted, interesting guy, it’s possible to do fine with cute hipster girls. It’s not a bad life.
It’s not a good life: real men, seeing how cute your girl (herbs call them “partners”, it’s less sexist) is compared to you will either (a) think, “How the fuck did he get her?”; or (b) hit the fuck on your girl, like all the time.
LikeLike
” I have a real problem with that because I have a high basal level of indifference to many things. I think that being more disagreeable and unreasonable would be helpful, but these are not natural positions.”
Indifference can be very helpful to growing your game, as many people get hung up on self-consciousness or following (beta-)prescribed social rules. Use this to your advantage.
LikeLike
Herb- Herbivore- Grass Eater- Japanese origin- Emasculated male who has given up chasing status and women.
Used differently by Roissy.
I think.
?
LikeLike
Brando:
Are you serious?
Firstly, it’s about button down shirts, not button up. It’s a collar thing; it’s just saying you don’t want to dress like that guy in your office you talk to when you when you can’t work out something in Excel. He wears khaki pants and looks like a dad, even though he’s your age.
It’s just like, when you go to a restaurant, or a cocktail lounge, you know they well dressed guy talking to the hot girl? Dress like him.
I’m assuming you’re already pretty well dressed, but if not, just take a look at an Esquire magazine. You can adapt the looks there, which are a little bit generic, to suit your personality.
If you look at those, and think, “What the fuck, I can’t go where I normally hang out, dressed like that!”, well, the point is not to dress like everyone else. Just a cut above the rest.
It’s easy: less like Marshall, more like Barney.
LikeLike
Brando
What am I supposed to wear, other than button-up collared shirts? Maybe a feathery vest with gold sequins ala Mystery? Are jockey undershirts approved?
Seriously, somebody post some non-gay, non-guido, non-peacock douche-fag attire recommendations
————————————–
Hi Brando!
I always think a simple fitted (not skin tight) t-shirt and comfy jeans (not too high (feet or waist)or too tight from the bottom or too tight from the crotchety crotch, and they can’t hang off your bum) look smashing on men.
David Beckam dresses VEEEERY well, although I doubt the normal everyday guy can get away with some of Beckham’s more bolder choices. However, in moderation you would look smaaaashing too!
LikeLike
I hate to see the sight of grown men gowing clothes shopping and taking along wifes and girlfriends.
I was in Kohls last weekend trying on some clothes. I was disgusted by the sight of so many men trying on clothes who went outside the dressing room to seek their womans approval. Like they were 12 years old and they needed mommies approval.
LikeLike
Ned Baker
Roissy,
Herb: Silent ‘h’ or not?
[editor: pronounce the h. this isn’t french cooking class.]
—————————–
hehe! That made me LOL!
LikeLike
B.,
I seriously don’t know what you are getting at re the collar thing. No collar, seriously? This eliminates most of what I see high status guys wearing at work or after hours…?
And how do you dress without an undershirt?
LikeLike
When a woman hands me her purse, I immediately start looking through it. When she says “don’t do that” I say “what did you give it to me for?” To a girl, they take it back and never ask again.
I also start sipping a woman’s cocktail at the bar when she asks me to hold it. “Hey, thanks!” I say.
LikeLike
i’m so versatile, i can even kick Herb Game!
LikeLike
Brando,
A buttondown collar is one that has button holes on the collar itself. You button the collar down onto your shirt.
It’s not hideous, it’s just the sort of thing that looks like it’s from a department store catalog, where the guy is wearing chinos and if a girl were to look at him, there’s no hint of sexual danger.
A button up shirt with a collar is good. Well fitted, so you don’t look sloppy.
LikeLike
The USA is full of Jews. As a British expat coming here I am amazed at how many Jews are here…and I am not in NYC either. A bunch of American Jewish women want to be impregnated by British men over here in The States – they just fling themselves at you.
This nation is insane.
LikeLike
“Herbs don’t care if they fuck or don’t fuck women.”
–in a sense, this is most alpha of all.
[editor: or they’re eunuchs.]
The ultimate indifference game… except it’s real.
[taking this definition of aloofness to its logical conclusion, comatose men would be the biggest ladykillers in the world.]
LikeLike
Brando–
Button down collar shirts have buttons near the tips of their two collars to SECURELY hold the collar against the shirt body after the tie has been tied. Then the buttons are buttoned. (For archetypal beta/omega in this area, go with a clip on tie, though that’s long been really rare in real life in my environs. Back office in New Jersey, I can’t comment. Still appears as obvious or subtle ridicule in the entertainment media. Avoiding wearing a tie isn’t at all beta; tends to be the opposite. Faking it with a clip on is.)
Button down collars are definitely beta or omega and have been forever, but they’re also not very common today at least in my own work and other environs in NYC. The essence of why is that they signal resentful compliance with a rule without owning the standard and doing it well with flair.
LikeLike
Herbs typically don’t attract a woman’s attention right away. The secret to herbs getting women is that over time, the woman will start to wonder why the herb doesn’t pay any special attention to her. The herb will not be moved by the dress that turns most betas into pathetic idiots. The herb will not respond to girlish charms. The herb just happily and obliviously continues doing whatever it is that he does every day. A high-T woman won’t be able to stand not being acknowledged as a woman, especially by a man who should be happy to have her attentions. As a result, she’ll ramp up her attentions to the herb and may eventually ask him out. On the date, the herb will be perfectly polite and won’t try anything sexual at the end. Repeat a few more times, and the herb will find himself with a girlfriend without even trying.
LikeLike
BE–
The US is only 2-3% Jewish (depending on how much admixture you still count as Jewish, the higher figure being primary cultural identification), a figure that amazes most urban and to a lesser extent all Americans when first encountering it. That’s a lot more than in Britain, but much less than in pre war Germany, much less Poland. (About 5% in the former case, IIRC.)
However their representation in more elite and semi elite circles (most true professions for sure, not to mention the power brokers in Hollywood since its beginning) including in all sides of the media and academia is way, way higher than that. Which is how almost all Americans have a skewed impression before learning the facts.
LikeLike
I would add to not be afraid of layering guys. US northeast men have this down well –as do the British. Juxtapose one rough/casual piece with the clean lines and good fit of more classic pieces. Know how to use color before you use it. Pick clothes that have opaque dyes/hues, they look rich even if they aren’t. Every man should own several jackets. Be careful on the jean fade. The wrong jean wash says so much about taste/style. When in doubt, buy dark washes. Elongate your lines by keeping things monochromatic. Never put a light shoe at the end of your foot with dark pants. It’s too cutting on the eye and shrinks you. If you lack innate style try no to do too much. Instead go deep with blues, grays, blacks, etc. and keep the fit tailored, it’s worth the money. Gray reads sophisticated, black reads classic, and blue reads boyish (in a good way). The deeper your coloring the more color you can pull off. The lighter you are the less bold colors you’ll want to try, stick with the neutrals that won’t wash you out. and for fucks sake, stop buying over-engineered sneakers so they’ll stop making them and we can get back to the classics.
LikeLike
Actually, carrying her purse can be alpha, you must look pleased, and it IS license to flirt with any and every other women (Great social confirmation, a lot of women will sleep with guys that they wouldn’t let hold their purse.)
LikeLike
HI CANNON!!!!
Did you enjoy your time in Miami? Did you hang with your boy Tupac?
🙂
LikeLike
What do you do if a woman ask you to watch her purse?????
LikeLike
Talking about herbs. What about this guy?
But you know this guy with his hang (the instrument) is just getting laid all the fucking time.
LikeLike
And if they’re not gay, these two as well.
or this one
It’s the “I’m a musician – I’m totally into my thing – look at me play my weird instrument and worship me.”
Damn. The last guy must have mega poon, if he has even the most basic social skills. Despite (or because of) his buskering.
LikeLike
hi little lady,
my trip to florida was both wistful and cathartic. pac was a no-show because he didn’t want to pay cover, or perhaps just because of a busy schedule. have you written me any poems this week?
LikeLike
@Aunt Haley
Herbs typically don’t attract a woman’s attention right away. The secret to herbs getting women is that over time, the woman will start to wonder why the herb doesn’t pay any special attention to her. The herb will not be moved by the dress that turns most betas into pathetic idiots. The herb will not respond to girlish charms. The herb just happily and obliviously continues doing whatever it is that he does every day. A high-T woman won’t be able to stand not being acknowledged as a woman, especially by a man who should be happy to have her attentions. As a result, she’ll ramp up her attentions to the herb and may eventually ask him out. On the date, the herb will be perfectly polite and won’t try anything sexual at the end. Repeat a few more times, and the herb will find himself with a girlfriend without even trying.
As unfortunate for actual PUAs as this may be, it’s true. I’ve seen it. And these guys keep them, too.
It’s like patient un-game. It’s game, but the disaffected guys aren’t running game. It’s just them.
They always have girls 1.5-2 points more attractive than them.
But, of course, they don’t care.
I knew a whole lot of guys like this in school. Always had hot girls (relatively).
It baffled me then. Still kinda does.
LikeLike
Was Jesus a Herb or a Beta?
LikeLike
He was a charismatic alpha of course. How could you imagine otherwise?
LikeLike
Oh, that’s too bad you two didn’t hang out! I bet 2pac was just 2busy!! Or maybe he’s shy? Shy Tupac…how adorable!
I did write you a poem! It was probably on Monday?!? It came straight from my heart too. Something about banana fanna. Hehe!
Well, I’m glad you had fun and I’m *really* glad your back! Your comments are always a delight to read! 🙂
LikeLike
FemX says,
“Alpha: Holds the purse, actually. Nonchalantly and chivalrously holds his girlfriend’s purse while he talks to his wife on his cell phone and picks up another chick with his body language. Trust. I would know.”
Please shut up you little fucking overentitled rich princess-complex puke.
LikeLike
Max–
A clear super alpha. Who didn’t exercise his abilities, allegedly, at least post his “emergence” from the desert or other parts unknown (often theorized to be as far as India, or at least an area subject to Indian influence).
LikeLike
I think he was Herb and that why western civilisation is dying and about to be taken over by a more “alpha” civilisation..
Lets face it. chicks dig murderers… we are doomed.
LikeLike
Abilities in the bedding women area.
There’s strong reason to believe that there was an historical Jesus, aside from theology. Not to say all theological depictions of him are entirely accurate or fulsome.
LikeLike
Wearing a jersey is not beta if it’s the silver and black! Raiders gear is the only team apparel you can sport and be fitted from head to toe in all black, making it the prefered choice of thugs, criminals, and hustlers everywhere. If you don’t know you better ask somebody.
LikeLike
Dude I sarge with Eckhart Tolle.. So I know I’m right
LikeLike
Tim
FemX says,
“Alpha: Holds the purse, actually. Nonchalantly and chivalrously holds his girlfriend’s purse while he talks to his wife on his cell phone and picks up another chick with his body language. Trust. I would know.”
Please shut up you little fucking overentitled rich princess-complex puke.
She’s not rich.
Max
Lets face it. chicks dig murderers… we are doomed.
^ Winner of the Greatest all time over the top post about women contest.
Whiskey hates, hates, hates you for relegating him to a distant second.
LikeLike
To my mind, the *cardinal sin* of herbitude is the willingness to look past an aging hottie’s ride on the alpha cock carousel during her 20’s as a forgivable offense, ameliorated by her willingness to throw the herb some scraps now that she is older and “wiser”. All other aspects of herbitude pale in comparison to this singular abomination. Sure, the herb is “indifferent”. Soooooo enlightened. Yeah, enjoy getting pegged by your girl, herb. Won’t be long before she bangs some other dude.
I grow weary of yet another dissembler giving me grief because some born-again slut in our social circle has locked her radar on me and can’t understand why I’m giving her the imperious brush off. Etiquette demands that I not do my manly duty by dumping a fuck in her as I would any other (anonymous) slut, so I am forced to keep distance and offer up my own stream of obfuscating bullshit.
LikeLike
Oh wait, Max has some competition from the Delusional Limey –
BE
The USA is full of Jews. As a British expat coming here I am amazed at how many Jews are here…and I am not in NYC either. A bunch of American Jewish women want to be impregnated by British men over here in The States – they just fling themselves at you.
This nation is insane.
LikeLike
anouk:
There should be a post about man boobs….my god is there anything worse? How weird would it be to run your hands across the chest of a man and you’re left holding a b-cup?
You tell me:
Brando:
What am I supposed to wear, other than button-up collared shirts? Maybe a feathery vest with gold sequins ala Mystery? Are jockey undershirts approved?
Seriously, somebody post some non-gay, non-guido, non-peacock douche-fag attire recommendations.
Seconded. Too much hatin’ here. We done hated ourselves out of existence. Yeah yeah, everybody got to deviate from the norm, but….what’s next?
B.
It’s not a good life: real men, seeing how cute your girl (herbs call them “partners”, it’s less sexist) is compared to you will either (a) think, “How the fuck did he get her?”; or (b) hit the fuck on your girl, like all the time.
Hahahahaha. I feel like I’ve met you before. Sometimes I feel guilty. Sometimes.
Roissy:
“Herbs don’t care if they fuck or don’t fuck women.”
–in a sense, this is most alpha of all.
[editor: or they’re eunuchs.]
The ultimate indifference game… except it’s real.
[taking this definition of aloofness to its logical conclusion, comatose men would be the biggest ladykillers in the world.]
Never underestimate the instinct in women to find a “project” and “change” him. Of course, the trick is you never let her win. Just sayin’
U U U:
Oh, that’s too bad you two didn’t hang out! I bet 2pac was just 2busy!! Or maybe he’s shy? Shy Tupac…how adorable!
Pero soy un canalla
Soy un extrano
Que carajos hago aqui?
No pertenezco a este lugar
Gorbachev:
or this one
Wow. Cool. I’m a musician (even played in a steel drum band) and I’ve never seen that instrument before. Thx.
As unfortunate for actual PUAs as this may be, it’s true. I’ve seen it. And these guys keep them, too.
It’s like patient un-game. It’s game, but the disaffected guys aren’t running game. It’s just them.
They always have girls 1.5-2 points more attractive than them.
But, of course, they don’t care.
I knew a whole lot of guys like this in school. Always had hot girls (relatively).
It baffled me then. Still kinda does.
It fills me with an unholy rage.
LikeLike
Jesus was an alpha. Paul was an alpha. Most early Christians – omegas.
LikeLike
Off topic, but eight months after Megan Fox insulted Michael Bay in an interview, she has been dropped from Transformers 3.
Alpha behavior?
LikeLike
“I think he was Herb and that why western civilisation is dying and about to be taken over by a more “alpha” civilisation.”
There isn’t a more “alpha” civilization that can take over the West.
Muslims can’t do it because their smart fraction is mostly faking it (behold the new Miss USA, e.g.)
What is likely to happen is an increasing atomization of the West with competing enclaves — and this is how “Rebirth of Alpha”(tm) can take place.
Think Ancient Greek city-states. This is inevitable because of the willful inability of certain Western state actors to relinquish the obsolete, false narrative (think California here.)
Yes, unwillingness to come to agreement on finance and debt matters could change things faster than we imagine.
LikeLike
“Off topic, but eight months after Megan Fox insulted Michael Bay in an interview, she has been dropped from Transformers 3.
Alpha behavior?”
In the sense that bosses tend to be alphas, yes. It’s bad business to allow your employees to publically attack you.
LikeLike
Christianity in a nushell — a handful of alphas corraling a planet-full of omegas.
LikeLike
@Tupac Chopra
To my mind, the *cardinal sin* of herbitude is the willingness to look past an aging hottie’s ride on the alpha cock carousel during her 20′s as a forgivable offense, ameliorated by her willingness to throw the herb some scraps now that she is older and “wiser”. All other aspects of herbitude pale in comparison to this singular abomination. Sure, the herb is “indifferent”. Soooooo enlightened. Yeah, enjoy getting pegged by your girl, herb. Won’t be long before she bangs some other dude.
I grow weary of yet another dissembler giving me grief because some born-again slut in our social circle has locked her radar on me and can’t understand why I’m giving her the imperious brush off. Etiquette demands that I not do my manly duty by dumping a fuck in her as I would any other (anonymous) slut, so I am forced to keep distance and offer up my own stream of obfuscating bullshit.
My own petty vengeance comes out of residual betatude. I admit it: this sort of pettiness is beta. There’s a beta in me that still smarts when he hears what women say about men.
The women who rode alphas in their early 20’s and even their later 20’s never spared a sideways glance for me (beta, 6), or any of the men I knew. Most men. 10% of the men got most of the 6-10 women. (except a few very beloved ex GFs who were wonderful people. They were awesome and caring and great souls then. They remain so. They’re all married to great guys with wonderful families.).
Now, … how the tables have turned. Forget fucking the fading 30+ girls my own age who did this back then.
The moment I see any beta-bashing from a woman, I know what she is. Especially when I see her smile and think about her string of mega boyfriends in university.
She absolutely deserves to be gamed, banged and dumped as hard as humanly possible. As long as I can, I will be extracting this revenge.
Especially now that these women (self-entitled, arrogant, narcissistic, presumptuous monsters still) are 30-35 and desperate for a decent guy to marry them.
And they wonder why guys fuck them for a while and then toss them with the rest of the garbage. Seriously, no one deludes like a narcissistic woman.
It’s all very petty. Not alpha.
We are the sum of our experiences.
But what’s most awesome is at 30-35 they’re in the last good years for mating and having kids.
It’s a great service to the gene pool to help waste more of their time.
LikeLike
So essentially all hipsters are herbs?
LikeLike
Not to continue the purse-holding discussion ad nauseam, but why the hell would a girl pawn off a purse before going into a dressing room at a store? That sounds like a farfetched made-up hypothetical. In any case, if that happened, my response would be “The dressing-room-dwelling purse-eating monster doesn’t work Fridays (or whatever day).”
If she hands it to you when she goes to the bathroom, “hide” it with one of the employees and make her go around asking. Playful exasperation is a good state for a girl to be in (and this sort of test is an excellent bitch filter, too).
—
@ SGOTI
Whoa, tone it down there tiger. Nothing wrong with jerseys, caps, jackets, or even bags (my laptop sleeps in one of these) representing favorite teams or cities.
As for jerseys with players’ names on the back, that’s totally fine as long as at least one of the following is true: (a) the player is dead or retired, (b) the player is a friend or family member, or (c) the sport/team is foreign, exotic, or niche.
LikeLike
Had an interesting conversation with a woman I used to date and who still carries a torch for me thanks to the wonders of game.
She relayed to me a great insight regarding this herb/beta dichotomy in regard to a guy we both know.
He is definitely beta and her story to me was insightful.
She said some time ago this beta-guy started trying to game her.
But she said while she at first was quite neutral to him she grew to loathe him for as she put it his “Creepiniess” in the way he expressed interest to her.
She wanted to set him straight about his approach but never did. Instead she relayed it to me laughing all the while.
She said when he started gaming her, his technique was so sloppy and transparent that she got turned off immediately “Oh pretty girl, what are you doing this week, I want to take you to a movie….” etc yuck.
She said this same beta was just friends with a common friend of hers and he never acted that way with this common friend.
According to the woman, if this beta had simply treated her with the same kind of indifference he treated this mutual friend, she might have “liked” him.
He’s now gaming another girl who calls him “brother”….if that’s not a romance killer I’m not sure what is…..
LikeLike
@Doug1
Is there a beta-herb cross-over? Where I live there appear to be a lot of these chipmunked cheeked, high-waisted khaki-pants wearing herbs who are by their very nature betas.
But as you point out, many women see them as “safe” and perhaps “mate” material but I’m not sure there’s any sex going on. The title “boyfriend” tends to emphasize “friend” here.
I met one very attractive, tall, very fit, sexy, accomplished woman who is going out with one of these beta-herbs I describe.
I cannot see there is any sex going on. When they’re out in areas we all hang out, he watches over her like a hawk.
I took it on myself to practice game on her and have been meeting with surprising results. I number-closed her in front of the guy.
She always initiates heavy kino when she sees me…hand on knee, elbow touching etc and is laughing uproariously at everything I say.
But still there’s a kind of bridge I have to cross before bedding down this woman and going first for a kiss-close and moving onto more. I”m biding my time.
But my biggest question is “WTF???” I don’t see any chemistry between these two…zero….none… so this herb is somehow attached in some way, or shares a connection of some kind with this cute hottie (I wonder if they’re fucking?).
Does this beta/herb continuum create some type of safety net for cute girls to then submit to more from guys like me who is new to game but more alpha.
Am I too alpha for these girls? Am I negging too much? But this girl seems to love it when I neg her. The change in demeanour when I neg her is palpable.
Trying to make sense of it all.
LikeLike
Don’t knock — I find lots of good shit at thrift stores.
LikeLike
Hah! I really must ask, what planet are you people from?!
I am a girl who is very much attracted to the Alphas of the pack (yeah, I can admit my weaknesses), I would definitely not qualify a healthy love of sports as beta. Seriously. Come on, people. What planet are we from?! In fact, if a guy wasn’t into sports I’d be seriously suspicious of his heterosexuality.
Heh. The issue with this, of course, is that if it really is a “giant ‘eff you'” to said foreign country, then you’re probably in a country where they’ll have no qualms about quickly disposing of your ass. And if you’re not in that kind of country…it’s probably not an “eff you.” Example: If you’re wearing an Argentina jersey in the slums of Rio, you’re making your point (and you should probably watch out). If you’re wearing a USA jersey in England…the Brits are probably just laughing at you.
Um, I agree. I think this discussion is a pretty clear indicator of who actually goes out and talks to women, and who just sits at home reading this blog. No offense, guys, but girls/girlfriends/wives/etc. don’t just pawn their purse off on their boys/boyfriends/husbands/etc. for no good reason.
Obviously, the only reason I would ask someone to hold my purse would be if I were about to drop something, or if I were walking into a really sketchy port-a-potty at an outdoor all-day rave. Or something equally disgusting. The reason that I would not otherwise ask him to hold my purse would, au contraire to popular belief, NOT be because I would be looking out for his masculinity or some nonsense–no, it would be because it is my purse and it has all of my important shit in it.
Seriously, this doesn’t happen. In fact, it happens SO rarely that if a guy did refuse to hold my purse (while I was falling over trying to balance a tray full of glasses or while I was about to enter the most disgusting place known to man), that would be very unattractive to me. I’m not saying that I think it is super-sexy for men to hold my shit, I’m saying that it is super un-sexy for my guy to not be there in my time of desperate need.
This discussion is similar to when all of you insist that if you’re not SUPER ALPHA, guys will “swoop” girls out from under your feet every waking instant. Painfully obvious conjecture.
Doesn’t happen, my homies.
LikeLike
I’m pretty sure my father is an Herb. I am very great full that he is. My mom is feminine, wonderful and I love her to death, but she’s not the most attractive person in the world. If my father was alpha he would probably been much less involved in my and my brother’s life, he would have been off getting younger ass. As I woman I understand the desire for alpha, but as a daughter I am glad as hell that my dad is more focused on parenting than chasing tale.
LikeLike
doug1,
“There’s strong reason to believe that there was an historical Jesus, aside from theology. Not to say all theological depictions of him are entirely accurate or fulsome.”
methinks you are barking up the right tree
unless, by an off chance, you are insisting upon the wooly-hair, feet of brass skin-tone meme. that would be… so… uncivilized….
LikeLike
It’s clear to me that ‘herbs’ is a subset of ‘betas’
LikeLike
“that would be very unattractive to me.”
So sayeth she, who curses the name of her neglectful alpha but dreams of his turgid cock nonetheless.
“Doesn’t happen, my homies.”
Just because you don’t notice it, doesn’t mean it never happens.
LikeLike
Eh. If anything, I’d call that sort of over-thinking, paranoid-about-being-called-a-pussy behavior decidedly non-Alpha (it’s up to you to determine the corresponding Greek letter). By all y’all’s standards, my guy is quite the SUPER ALPHA, and he held my purse the one time when, you know, I had to tie my shoe.
Now, taken literally, this is fact. Which, of course, is why I thoroughly discussed the matter with my guy before posting here. Our mutual conclusion was that neither of these things (guys a’swoopin’ girls under your feet and girls tossing their purses at you the second you show your skin) happens on a regular basis. Really, it just doesn’t.
If you’re seeing these things happen on a regular (or even semi-regular, or even more-than-once-in-a-blue-moon regular) basis…you’re lying. You’re not even living in some crazy herbified city, you’re just making shit up.
LikeLike
“turgid”? “fulsome”?
obviously, everyone here has also been reading Age of Treason
which is rather excellent this week
sure beats The Economist!
LikeLike
Mmm, that or y’all have been catching up on your Harlequin novellas.
LikeLike
When I see a guy wearing a sports jersey, name or no-name on the back, I like to think that he spent exactly 0/16 of a second contemplating what men on blogs might think about his choice of attire.
LikeLike
@askjoe: Following sports or wearing a jersey is textbook beta. You have basically identified the alpha of the pack you chose to follow.
Right. A true alpha male is never going to be happy following another man. If he is, he is only biding his time until he can take over from the alpha.
Wearing a sports jersey, and hence following men that you can never take over from, is announcing to the world that you are a drone, a eunuch, a man who is only good at following, taking orders and doing what he is told.
Real Alphas break from the pack. They are curious, they don’t like taking orders. They don’t follow. If an Alpha is a sportsman he will be playing sports not watching other people do it. If an Alpha is not a sportsman, he’ll be doing something else he is good at, not watching other men.
LikeLike
@Catala:By all y’all’s standards, my guy is quite the SUPER ALPHA
Oh, yeah, really? Tell us, when he comes home, his cock still wet from the pussy juices of his mistress, does the very sight of him cause you to swoon, go weak at the knees, tear off your panties, throw yourself on your back and say ‘take me, take me, take me’?
If not, he’s not “SUPER ALPHA”.
LikeLike
Of all the boys I’ve ever met, only one type of boy did not like/watch/follow-on-a-semi-regular-basis some type of sport/competitive event: Alphas.
Just kidding! The real answer is “the gay ones.”
LikeLike
Um, wearing any type of clothing, and hence following men/fashion designers/societal rules and regulations that you will never escape, is announcing to the world that you are a drone/eunuch/man who is only good at following orders/etc.
REAL ALPHAS GO NAKED.
LikeLike
@TheDarkLord (P.S. I’m going to call you Voldemort from now on)
Voldy, my man.
As we know, “Alpha” is determined by what he could get, whether he chooses to or not. It’s also determined by where he stands in the Greek alphabet. Whenever they do a roll call for Greek letters, my guy just kicks in the head of that β and the rest of those damn letters cower in fear.
P IS NOT R PEOPLE!!!
LikeLike
TheDarkLord:
So, let’s say we had a guy who just LOVED the L.A. Lakers.
Loved ’em so much that he had courtside seats at all their games — even the away games.
Loved ’em so much that he yelled at the refs during the games.
Loved ’em so much that he had a custom-made Lakers cake for his birthday, in the shape of a basketball court.
Beta.
Right?
Right.
LikeLike
@Catala:As we know, “Alpha” is determined by what he could get,
Well, he could only get you. That says it all.
LikeLike
Voldy, you got deaded by a fourteen-year-old fictional character. I think that says a lot more.
Heh. I’m just teasin’. I have no hate for you or the board. I like Harry Potter 🙂
LikeLike
P.S. Your avatar is pink. Tell me, is that Alpha or !Alpha?
LikeLike
@Catala
You’re writing like you’ve gone soft in the head.
It’s my presence. Always is.
LikeLike
Mmm, it’s probably that sexy pink avatar. Real men wear pink, hmm? (Or go naked.)
LikeLike
@Catala
It doesn’t matter what I’m wearing; women normally can’t take their eyes off me. And if I’m naked…well….
LikeLike
@Epoxytocin No. 87 (I’m going to call you Poxy from now on)
Dude, Jack Nicholson is CLASSIC BETA.
LikeLike
@Voldy
…then neither can the police!
LikeLike
@Catala:
I’ve had a couple of policewomen.
LikeLike
@Voldy
At the same time?
LikeLike
WINK WINK
LikeLike
@Catala
Unfortunately not. Couple of years between them.
LikeLike
@ Català
Quant perspicàcia! m’agrada el que dius
… com t’agradaria que et follin per darrera
guarra!
hahaha he begut massa aquesta nit
LikeLike
@Voldy
Aww, weak sauce.
@Poxy
I see you know my glorious and underrepresented language. And si, m’agradaria allò 😉
LikeLike
Many of the beta & herb pics are of guys wearing glasses. Having recently gotten glasses myself and realising I actually look better with them, I’m wondering if chick’s first impressions of me will be skewed more towards “provider”.
I don’t think I look like a nerd – I look a bit classier.
Does anyone else here wear glasses?
LikeLike
@ Sniper
There are very, very few Western women attracted to herbs. Or betas. They just tell themselves that.
Wake up.
@ askjoe
Sounds like a guy who isn’t masculine in traditional ways and feels really insecure about that.
A truly moronic statement.
LikeLike
It’s funny reading posts by these guys who think they are alpha because they have fucked women dozens of other guys have fucked (if you are fucking her less than one month after meeting her take her count and divide by 5). Here is an alpha calculator for you.
Hotness of woman – number of guys she has fucked = alpha points.
LikeLike
There is nothing “traditionally masculine” about wearing some overpaid retard’s jersey. Worshipping other men is not manly. Note the period at the end of the previous sentence.
Thanks for the clearing up the collar issue, people. I dont think I’ve seen one of those button down collars since I was a kid.
LikeLike
Paul says, “A guy who bangs one 9 a year is more alpha than a guy who seduces 10 different 5′s in one year. I cannot stress this enough. Banging ugly girls IS NOT ALPHA.”
…and this is how so many men get effectively neutered by western culture.
You get convinced to squirm around in the bottleneck instead of shagging the women who actually exist in your range, while the alphas shag everybody.
I got the chance to see how this worked a couple of nights ago while sitting with a friend I discuss game with from time to time. There was a group of guys who were obviously young soldiers, sitting at the outdoor tables at a pizza place. Near them were a couple of girls who looked kind of bored.
They were in the “hot” category…not “perfect” but hot. I heard snippets of the conversation between the guys about how they looked. All but two were finding every reason not to talk to them (most deciding they weren’t hot enough (like they are ever going to do better)), but a short, fairly dark, but pretty kid and his pale lanky wingman broke from the group, and started talking to the girls.
Somehow, little alpha convinced them to go with him someplace far from the larger group of guys. So little alpha and wingman are working it, and the other guys are sitting around being pathetic.
It all went to hell when a Big Alpha friend of theirs swept through. You could literally see the girls’ nostrils flare as he breezed in and everybody (except little alpha and wingman) clamored to shake his hand like fanboys or something.
…but you see my point.
Alphas look for reasons to fuck. Betas look for excuses for masturbating.
I’m a girl, but I’ve managed to figure that much out.
LikeLike
Nicole,
Your lack of penis precludes you from knowing the difference between a 9 and a 5. I dont think many women have the capacity to be honest about the weight of those four points.
Re: Jack Nicholson. Maybe he got so much vadge at a young age he became homo-curious?
LikeLike
Thanks boys, for clearing this up. I was wondering why, whenever I go to watch sports games, I always see a bunch of men…holding purses.
LikeLike
Mod. Gay.
@Brando (I’m going to call you STELLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
Wow, thanks for clearing this up. I was wondering why, whenever i go to watch sports games, I always see a bunch of men…with purses.
LikeLike
Nicole,
I would rather jack off than fuck a 5. I know because I’ve done both and only felt humiliated after one of them. Guess which.
Pride is the most important thing you have in life and when you abandon it you become the fat disgusting STD invested trash of society.
LikeLike
Brando, like I said, excuses. I just said that I was sitting with a guy. All the guys there thought they were hot, just the balless ones waiting for the unicorn insisted that they’re somehow not hot enough. They were making excuses.
If nobody wants you then your standards mean shit. Alpha dreams and beta balls don’t translate to alpha male.
Little alpha did a good job of bringing himself out of invisibility, because up until he opened his mouth, that’s what he was to them.
LikeLike
Cat,
I’d say only a fraction of men with homo tendencies are the faggoty types – think modern prisons.
LikeLike
Nicole,
Sorry, you’re just not my type.
LikeLike
Also, if men would stop fucking ugly girls there would be fewer ugly girls because they would have to shape up to get laid. You don’t understand how disgusting the average American woman is until you live in Europe for an extended period.
LikeLike
Roissy,
I think you need to install the “rate it” feature so we can rate comments. It is so hard to read through 300 comments to find the good ones. Every time I do, though, I find some fantastic additional thoughts, from readers and from you.
Let’s do this buddy, your site is a tremendous resource for all of us.
Cheers.
LikeLike
Its not rocket science here – a herb is a provider – that is why he has the cute wife. Its based on the trasnfer of wealth. A herbs wife will not care what he looks like as long as the £££ keeps rolling in.
That is why Herbs are usually married – they will get the cute chick but to SEAL THE DEAL the cute chick will expect marriage (and fast). They normally comply.
That is why a Herb wife will carousel to the next cock not for looks but for money.
A beta is the same without the economic success of the herb. That is why they will supplicate by tring to look better – e.g better dressed as was previously mentioned.
Here in the City of London Herbs are the norm. They thrive in areas like IT and other well paid, non-aggressive plodding along jobs.
They “keep up with the joneses” too. Its very important to them.
They suck.
S
LikeLike
What, you haven’t read The World According to Garp? The chick got knocked up by the guy who was so uber-alpha that she wouldn’t even THINK of going after him for child support.
LikeLike
Brando, I don’t care what your type is.
If I was a guy’s type, but I don’t notice him, and he was too much of a tool to talk to me because he’s chasing women (who also don’t notice him and wouldn’t want him if they did) based on what other people think of them, then he’s missing out on me and the socially acceptable girl.
A guy has to be in charge of his own dick. That’s all I’m saying.
A dude who isn’t fucking anybody has no call to talk trash about a dude who’s fucking somebody.
LikeLike
@STELLLAAAAAAAAAA
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say there. Are you saying that most gay men are masculine? Or are you saying that most men are a little bit gay?
LikeLike
I’ll make it even simpler.
An alpha has options and chooses the best or at least the most expedient of his options.
A beta has fewer options and *should* choose the best from among them. Problem is that a standard feature of beta males is high social dependence with lower social adeptness. Unfortunately, betas today as opposed to times past, don’t know what their options really are because the television is promising him an endless stream of “liberated” 9’s and 10’s.
So let’s just say for the sake of argument, the girls were just 5’s. Let’s just say. They’re 5’s but they are slim, clean, polite, feminine, and interested in finding someone.
That’s as good as it’s going to get for the vast majority of men regardless of thier social hierarchy.
They’re definitely hot enough for 18 year old soldiers making maybe $50 a month.
The guy who doesn’t think so is just making excuses for masturbating…and he’ll be doing a lot of that if he doesn’t realize his standards.
LikeLike
Slim clean polite and feminine is not a 5.
A 5 is ten pounds overweight, bitchy with a smelly vag but whose fat tits which can be appealing when you’re really drunk.
LikeLike
Having sex with a woman you dont like is worse than masturbating and worse for the gene pool.
I have to go, but you need to realize that the glut of betas and ugly bitches in our world is not natural but the result of an industrialized, pussified world in which everyone gets to mate when they shouldnt, and, harsh as it is, live past infancy when they shouldnt. A correction is on its way.
LikeLike
We need a “avoid these bare minimums” anti-beta post. Not “what would you do to score a 10” but “what would you do to stop your 6-7 hating you”. I know there’s a lot of overlap but beginners aren’t capable of the former, but can probably meet the latter pretty quickly.
LikeLike
The herbs in DC usually have decent looking Asian girlfriends and seem quite happy. I am not a herb though I have a decent looking Asian wife. I also have decent looking girls on the side and get the occasional one night stand.
LikeLike
Brando, the correction is already underway. The unfit are masturbating while the fittest are fucking.
LikeLike
Nicole,
Good illustration. But the real problem on this thread is everyone is using their own private definition of what “Alpha” is. There are many definitions, but for the sake of tolerable discussion we should only use “alpha” unqualified when the man in question meets Roissy’s definition of it (attractive enough to women that it is easy for him to get laid by women he wants; degree of alphaness depends on how many women, how hot they are, and much into him they are, but not on whether he actually fucks the women he could be fucking).
Our scales are slightly different — I would say “slim, clean, polite, feminine, and interested in finding someone” already implies a 6 unless their faces are clearly below average. 6 is “okay-looking” and is the lower limit of girls alphas normally sleep with.
LikeLike
That’s not happening on a grand enough scale to be a correction. Too many slutty ugly bitches.
LikeLike
By definition, on a scale of 1-10, a 5 should be “completely average.” Not “disgusting” or “okay after you’re piss-drunk.” If you see a girl who’s “a 5” and you wouldn’t sleep with her if she walked up to you and took her clothes off, then you’re probably overrating her. Obviously, there’s point variation from guy to guy. But not a crazy-ton.
LikeLike
This Beta drivel is not value added….
Read these released stats on the fact that 25% of Under 25 population is unemployed.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a8f9A4GYLECE&pos=14#
That means 25% of under 25 men (Prime competition) are NOW waiters making ZERO
That means 25% of under 25 women (Prime pussy) is making zero, dumping her under 25 zero $ making man, and seeking MEN mking money!
This asymetry in the dating market has not occured other than in War, famine, and plagues.
This is a once in a lifetime opportunity; occurs every 50 yrs.
debating herbs/ betas while this Pussy flood is taking place is insanity.
Check out dating sites, go to any college campus with nice clothes on, rent a sports car, or just flash some c-notes.
Guys putting pics of their Corvette Hertz rental and some beacj pics are scoring 15 dates a month, and 2 lays on any dating site.
Turn off your laptop and get some pussy folks.
The data does not lie.
LikeLike
silver fox… excellent
LikeLike
The unfit are masturbating while the fittest are fucking.
Yes, they are fucking, but not out-reproducing the ugly and stupid.
It is the slack-jaws and immigrant laborers who are having the most children and at the youngest ages, while the beautiful (Aniston, Theron, Pitt, Bullock, etc) wait forever to have their first, and sometimes only, child.
Personally, I don’t care, but this is probably not the kind of genetic, Darwinian correction that think it might be.
LikeLike
Silverfox,
As a realist, I must admit I would probably have the same attitude if I were in your shoes. But as a recent college grad working at a fucking gas station, I hope you get herpes or AIDS.
I say that to illustrate the level of malice I, and soon MANY young men my age feel towards you old opportunistic parasitic fucks who got us in this mess to begin with.
When I mentioned a “correction” earlier, I was referring to the end of the cheap-oil-fueled endless-growth economic paradigm on which the world population of 6 billion utterly depends.
This motherfucker is going down hard, soon, and you might not want to be toolin around in your benz with the top down when armies of us testosterone-fueled nothing-to-lose types figure that out.
LikeLike
Why does an Herb have to be White?…2nd picture guy looks kinda brown actually.
My Xhusband was an alpha and he thought it was funny to hold my purse once in a while…probably happened 3 times in 10 years but he offered and he laughed about it. He’s older now, we’re on friendly terms and he seems almost human now.
I kind of like Herbies. They know interesting stuff. Intelligence trumps Game, in my opinion. I think in some weird way, what you call Herbs may be the ultimate Alphas because they don’t give a hoot what everyone else thinks.
In response to the blog author’s list, I’ve got one for Alphas and wannabees. This is what I’m afraid Alphas and wannabees often experience (I’m truly not being snarky here, it’s an observation from a friend):
alpha and wannabee – has indiscriminate sex, like a dog
alpha and wannabee – is cheating on his wife
alpha and wannabee – is unfulfilled in life
alpha and wannabee – still envious of men with hotter gfs
alpha and wannabee – wonders why he feels so empty
alpha and wannabee – deluded
alpha and wannabee – sex addiction; never enough sex to fill the emptiness
alpha and wannabee – brain loaded with lies
This is why Roissy is in a long term relationship now and Tyler Durden made a video of him and his son who he is obviously very proud of. No man is an island. It’s not easy to be in LTRs (where you may have to exhibit self-control and selflessness sometimes) and/or take care of children but it gives life meaning.
LikeLike
Brando, you’re a college grad, and you’re seeing yourself as a member of the underprivileged class who’s gonna unleash a can of whoop-ass on the opportunistic parasitic fucks?
By any objective measure, you’re OVERprivileged, even compared to your compatriots, but much more so when compared to the average inhabitant of this planet.
Just thought I’d point out the obvious. The true opportunistic parasitic fucks have nothing to fear from either your covetous ass, or the truly underprivileged ones – they have a plan and the means to not only survive, but to surf whatever wave of popular sentiment to new riches. The only thing they have to fear is an epidemic of quiet contentment… which has no chance of happening. You’re not angry at the parasitic fucks because of their excesses; you’re just envious because you can’t join them.
LikeLike
Nicole, I have no idea why you hang out here, but you’ve been making a lot of sense lately.
Tupac Chopra:
“To my mind, the *cardinal sin* of herbitude is the willingness to look past an aging hottie’s ride on the alpha cock carousel during her 20′s as a forgivable offense, ameliorated by her willingness to throw the herb some scraps now that she is older and “wiser”. All other aspects of herbitude pale in comparison to this singular abomination. Sure, the herb is “indifferent”. Soooooo enlightened. Yeah, enjoy getting pegged by your girl, herb. Won’t be long before she bangs some other dude.”
Most betas and omegas, unlike the herb (which I think might be another term for young SWPL males), REALLY resent this. I know I do. The thought of getting in an LTR, as a neophyte with women, and knowing that the woman has been in 10 or 20 relationships already is a big turn off. I can’t imagine being in any way special to her and imagine her thinking of being with me as “settling”.
Some here, however, have said this shouldn’t matter, but I suspect they’re alphas who are in just as many relationships as young women are, so they have nothing to be resentful about.
LikeLike
I know a number of guys who have no interest in sports, and without fail, they are all do-it-yourselfers around the house or auto. They aren’t gay, quite the contrary.
LikeLike
OmegaDork, I’m one of those guys, though I wouldn’t say that I have no interest in sports – I merely have no interest in being a spectator. Engaging in sports is fun, unless it becomes a second job.
LikeLike
Also, if men would stop fucking ugly girls there would be fewer ugly girls because they would have to shape up to get laid. You don’t understand how disgusting the average American woman is until you live in Europe for an extended period.
Europe, sure.
Or try South America.
Or Asia.
The race things gets a lot of guys, but I tell you all: Korea.
*Hottest* girls in Asia. Grossly underserviced by their own guys.
If you’re sleeping with 6-7 girls here, … when you arrive there, and know what you’re doing, you’re doing, you’re regularly sleeping with a range of 7-9 girls in Korea for the same work and much less investment.
It’s a lazy man’s way out of the insanity in North America, but there you are. After traveling all over for a while, I’ve come to realize how sadly oversold the women in North America really are.
LikeLike
Jack,
Sadly i just think you have to say, i have a gf to become more popular.
LikeLike
Jesus was an Alpha. He thwarted death. How many of you guys has done that?
You should be careful what you say about Jesus.
LikeLike
Definition of Alpha
Geez, guys. This is all getting totally past the point.
Who gives a shit what true alpha is. I couldn’t care less.
Boil it down:
I want to sleep with women when I want to. I want them to be more attractive than I’d be able to get based on my own attractiveness level alone. I want them to want me.
More importantly, I have to be in the driver’s seat – I won’t endure the contempt of a woman who hates me for not being alpha enough for her.
And having a stable of available females is a huge bonus.
Anything else is irrelevant, frankly.
The only reason herbs seem even remotely cool is that 1) they appear to be with women hotter than they’d otherwise be able to get, and 2) they don’t give a shit either way.
That makes them a very interesting species, as a discussion point.
But irrelevant to the discussion of Alphaness in pursuit of the above goals.
LikeLike
Good for you Silver Fox. As for SF haters, I would say that you asshole youngsters, cough cough Obama voters, got us “into” this mess. Recessions are cyclic, depressions are policy driven. Oh, and good luck with your Feminist Scream Therapy Degrees, I hope it was worth $100K in student loans.
LikeLike
Omega said:
“The thought of getting in an LTR, as a neophyte with women, and knowing that the woman has been in 10 or 20 relationships already is a big turn off. I can’t imagine being in any way special to her and imagine her thinking of being with me as “settling”.”
You are not alone my friend.
Settling for a not so good looking girl and settling for a not so good looking girl who has spent the last ten years riding the cock carousel are two different things.
LikeLike
Fatness of American Women
The average American woman is far less attractive than women in almost every country I’ve been to.
Except the UK. The UK seems to be profoundly North American in this respect. Not Oz or NZ, just the UK.
Bitchy (-1); self-aggrandizing (-1); fat(-2); sense of entitlement(-1); grossly un-feminine (-1).
Did I mention fat?
It was depressing coming back to this from Asia.
Even more depressing coming back to this from Europe. It’s not like German women are less irritating, but, … just the fatness of American women.
I mean, you go to a bar in Seoul, and you think: Damn. I could walk out with 50% of the women here and think Score. Variations on 6-8 everywhere.
Tokyo is the same (but watch out for uber sluttiness)
Do exactly the same exercise in any American city, and you get: Holy shit, where did all these ugly (fat), bitchy women come from? What’s with that entitlement thing? Who the hell do these women think they are?
Okay, maybe it’s a white girl thing, you say.
Then try Europe.
Oh, the magnificent glory of Europe.
Coming back from Europe, you just want to neuter yourself when you check out the local options.
It’s crazy to see these high-powered, self-entitled cows travel together anywhere. I’ve never seen women more bereft of attractive men than American women abroad.
America: Seriously, WTF.
LikeLike
Català,
By definition, on a scale of 1-10, a 5 should be “completely average.”
Nope. On a 0-10 scale, 5 is completely average, but on a 1-10 scale, 5 is in the bottom half.
It goes like this: 10 Goddess 9 Gorgeous 8 Hot 7 Cute 6 Okay 5 Plain 4 Homely 3 Ugly 2 Hideous 1 Monster
This scale is stable for any given man, and the relative (but not absolute) ratings are largely stable across different men (exception: race can make a point or two difference to a person of different race). For a man who is not an alpha or an omega, the fuckability equivalents of these ratings are
10 Would destroy your life for it 9 Worth extreme effort 8 Worth significant effort 7 Definitely if opportunity arises 6 Wouldn’t mind 5 OK if drunk or if she has a good personality
4 OK as humanitarian act if she is a lovely person 3 Always reflects badly on you 2 only at gunpoint 1 not even at gunpoint
LikeLike
Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross certainly disqualifies him from being an alpha. One can contest he exhibited alpha behavior on occasion (confronting the money changers, coercing people to follow him) but at the end of the day he encouraged omega behavior…
The only alpha in Christianity is the preacher banging all the young hotties in his congregation.
LikeLike
“And how do you dress without an undershirt?”
Simple. Leave it out. Who said you need to put an undershirt on before your main shirt? Mommy?
LikeLike
Paul, Polymath, etc. I realize that in the U.S. thinness reigns supreme, but most of the rest of the world is neither as feminist nor as rife with real obesity, although I believe that much of that is more statistically based perception combined with moral panic.
It’s rare for anybody here under the age of 30 to be really fat. Curvy, maybe, but not really fat. So when talking to Brando, I was thinking that maybe he was so insistent that the girls weren’t so hot because he’s not American, or at least not culturally generic, and his standards were higher than visible ribs.
That’s often what’s implied when a guy here answers back with, “You don’t know what hot is.” It’s because women (and way too many American males) often don’t know how to gauge hot outside of weight.
Mind you, this isn’t such a bad thing, socially speaking. It means basically that beauty can be bought in a bottle, and that all a woman has to do is be skinny. This would mean that guys could easily shoot within their range (which is considerably higher with tight game) and still get with women they themselves view as very attractive.
I was thinking that if Brando things the average guy needs more than slim, polite, feminine, and interested in a shag, something is wrong.
Some guys should also be a bit more flexible about the slim part, within certain limitations, but that would be a matter of physical compatibility. That doesn’t really matter for girlfriends and wives, just mistresses.
LikeLike
Studies have shown that in countries where there is not an obesity problem, and in fact a hunger problem, weight is more attractive than skinny. That said among the weight there still has to be the ideal hip to waste ratio, so we’re not talking obese here, but probably a little above average BMI.
LikeLike
“Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross certainly disqualifies him from being an alpha.”
Really. Only if you are assuming he was just some dork who walked into a trap set by the authorities, and let himself be killed for no good reason.
Suppose you have a group of rebel soldiers operating in an occupied territory, ruled by an oppressive state regime that derives it’s “legitimacy” from the possession of a key artifact such as a crown or sceptre. Suppose the leader of this rebel group has devised a plan wherein the legitimacy bestowed by that crown can be removed from the current ruling authorities and a great blow for justice can be made for the oppressed people, but it would come at the cost of the rebel leader’s life. No other soldiers would be required to lose their life to pull of this coup, and the existing state, though it may continue to attempt to govern for a time could no longer do so with any real authority.
Would this rebel leader be an Alpha or an Omega for going through with the plan anyway?
LikeLike
So what does that make me? (Absurdly) high status job, offer for a top 5 MBA program on my desk, wearing mainly custom tailored suits (if meeting with clients) as well as khakis (in office, but never jeans and always with dress shirt and good year welted shoes; sometimes trainer in my free time)?
Also in LTR with a 7-8 (certainly 8 by US standard) for over 6 years straight but unable to approach women?
LikeLike
vasafaxa: not sure what countries you are referring to but I call bullshit. Plenty of slender women in Europe, still far preferred to above average BMI ones.
LikeLike
vasafaxa: not sure what countries you are referring to but I call bullshit. Plenty of slender women in Europe, still far preferred to above average BMI ones.
– – –
I’m talking third-world countries here where food and starvation is regularily an issue. As unpleasent as moldova may be, third world it is not. Think Africa, parts of asia etc.
LikeLike
I can’t help it, but African women just aint attractive to me. Slim or fat. (And Moldova would count as third world by most standards – judging by the accounts I read about it in any case)
LikeLike
Dilbert,
You lecture me on not appreciating my supposed fortune at being a member of the so-called rich industrialized world, yet you have not a clue what that world is made of or where it’s headed. Everything in modern western life, and the charities that subsidize the third world masses for that matter, is a product of cheap, plentiful fossil fuels.
The current recession is not a little hiccup in your yuppie, probably left wing fucktard existence. It is the beginning stages of the end of a way of life that was built on growing exponentially forever and extracting a continually increasing amount of resources forever. Look up peak oil, fiat currency, resource depletion, etc.
This has gone from “tin foil” doom prophecy to mainstream, documented by US military reports self-evident in the span of 5 years.
I don’t give a fuck if you think I’m a privileged whiner because I get to eat high fructose corn syrup and live with air conditioning. These things are not what life is about, silly.
I was responding to an apparently older gentlemen gloating about how he is going to cash in on the pussy of my generation as a direct result of us being economically fucked over. As in, saddled with student loan debt that we can’t repay.
Life for young men is about status and pussy. Take these away, without disarming the young men, and you better watch the fuck out.
LikeLike
Brando: status is about getting access to pussy, trust me.
LikeLike
Nupinup and vasafaxa, fat or skinny is not the point. The point is that if you were an African man living in Africa, but you don’t find African women attractive, then you need to move to someplace that has women you’d be attracted to.
It doesn’t mean that there’s too much ugliness around, you. It means that you are unrealistic for demanding that African women look European, and for downgrading guys who enjoy the African women you’re rejecting.
LikeLike
nupinup, yep they’re kind of interchangeable concepts.
And Askjoe:
I was never an Obama supporter, but he didnt cause this mess. He just made it massively worse by increasing our debt load. Not all young educated people are feminized pc eunuchs, sir, although I understand the sentiment.
LikeLike
Walawala—
Esp. if she’s 30+ and in husband hunting mode, I’d say the chances are strong that she is fucking him – a little. She’s keeping him on hold while still looking for more alpha guys. His virtue to her is that she finally found someone who does want to commit. She no longer feels so carefree about blowing such guys off. His watching over her like a hawk signals his lack of security in his relationship with her and is evidence that he is fucking her a little. He instinctively knows there’s a good chance she’ll succumb to a more alpha guy and that he’ll lose out.
Sure, ask her out. Your problem with her is likely to be that she’ll be reluctant to put out at all quickly. She probably strung him along a good long while before she slept with him – after all she felt no compelling urge to do so, only a desire to keep him trying and to further hook him. Leading her together with advice from her similarly marriage minded or engaged girlfriends to think that’s what’s she’s got to do to really hook someone like you too. Signal to her that you don’t wait around long if a girl doesn’t fully demonstrate her attraction.
She’s also likely to be pressing you for a commitment quite early. You should turn the stuff hot girls say all the time to herbs upon her, saying “let’s see how it develops”, etc. Don’t mention him at all. Have the frame that she is fucking him, but isn’t that into him, and that you couldn’t care less. She knows that you know about him and that also gives you implicit license to date others as well for awhile, not that you need that to do so.
If she wants to keep that she’s seeing you a secret from him “for now”, that’s fine and dandy. She’ll cut way down on how often she sexes him, if at all, all by herself. If she eventually gives you a speech about how she has to decide between him and you or it isn’t fair to either of you, but she needs to know exactly where she stands with you first, respond with something like “Oh, I’m not worried about x – let’s see who things continue to develop between us”. When she finally does give you an ultimatum or tries to, have the frame that you aren’t going to pace your relationship with her to suit the other guy. (Implicitly also not to suit her desire to run no risk of not having a committed boyfriend either, if you do end up leaving her.) She can do as she likes with him.
Yeah if she has strong not getting married anxiety, she will eventually really mean an ultimatum whether or not she’s let the herb go completely (she’s likely to think she can get him back). Then let her go by just saying you’re not ready to commit yet. That can occasionally keep girls still trying for longer, if that’s what you want. She’s too old for you with your growing options to marry anyway. She can find another herb or whatever.
Only marry with a prenup that mimics living together upon a breakup, and only if you want children with her imminently.
This you can best obtain if you’ve convinced her to move in with you as a trial and she’s been living with you happily (except for wanting marriage badly). Much stronger negotiating position. You’re happy with things just the way they are and think they should remain that way. (You’ve also got to make her fully aware a good while before you’re willing to talk about a prenup, of your feelings about why marriage 2.0 which opens up the possibility of divorce 2.0 is such a bad deal for men today in America.) Then it becomes what additional financial things if anything you should have to be committing to by marrying her “for her parents” or “as a full declaration of our commitment to all our friends and relatives” beyond when living with her, which you’re happy to continue forever, because you do feel lovingly committed to her. Instead of your directly having justify each bit of difference from the way your state treats men in divorce – you’ve already talking about the horrors for men of that. You simply will not marry anyone without your kind of prenup. (Remember you’ll owe the same sky high percentage of after tax income child support whether you’ve been married or living together. You just won’t have to give her your saved wealth in addition, or run as big a risk of alimony on top.)
LikeLike
@poly
Yeah, I meant 0-10. Sorry, long night ;). I think that all scales should start with 0.
LikeLike
Nupinup and vasafaxa, fat or skinny is not the point. The point is that if you were an African man living in Africa, but you don’t find African women attractive, then you need to move to someplace that has women you’d be attracted to.
– – – –
That’s not my point. My point is that the ideal slim women isn’t something as old as time. I’m not saying fat, but a lot of the same research Roissy and others points to on the objectivity of beauty, face ratio etc, also has some points about subjectivity or the nature of social standing effects the perception of beauty.
http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_II/Psychologie/Psy_II/beautycheck/english/figur/figur.htm
[ed: the objective nature of beauty dwarfs (heh) in intensity and breadth any subjective nature of beauty.
btw, rubens was an outlier for his time. most contemporaries of his painted slender women.]
LikeLike
Also if you’re curious here is a graph of what countries are developing and which are not.
LikeLike
Also note in the artical the men says that he is aware that Rubens is an extreme example. Some of those paintings the women don’t even have good WH ration. Rubens was probably a chubby chaser/gay. However, that doesn’t change the fact that many other paintings display what this guy was talking about.
Note the small breasts, and slightly protruding stoumach.
etc
[editor: so it’s agreed rubens was a fatty fucking outlier. that removes a major peg of feminist thought right there, that somehow fat chicks were once desirable in human history.
of course, basing your whole argument of malleable beauty standards on what a few painters painted hundreds of years ago is weak sauce. really weak sauce. most of those painters were not painting masturbation material for the masses of men.]
LikeLike
Silly Tupac!
Yo no soy español, chico sexy.
He utilizado Yo no soy español, chico sexy.
Tuve que usar traductor Google para averiguar cuál es su comentario de nuestros trataba.
¿Eran las letras de Radiohead Creep
Abrazos y besos de Tupac,
That was fun! 😀
LikeLike
Several pictures by William Adolphe Bouguereau contain women that are anyone’s type. All have thick legs, very wide stomachs/hips, and several have “tummys”.
LikeLike
Paul
That’s more like a 4. Higher betas and even lesser alphas will sometimes go there when drunk, horny and nothing else around. Though they’d probably want to keep it sneak tip.
First of all the distribution of women in rating system is a bell curve, though probably a somewhat flattened one. The fatness epidemic is also making the lower numbers left side of the curve “fattened” as well. Alphas will have easy casual sex with 6’s, when they’re horny and nothing else is available. Lesser alphas especially will. Lesser alphas will go down to 5s if drunk.
1) ugly
2) clearly unattractive
3 ) unattractive
4) not awful
5) plain, not fat, eh
6) cute, some guys will say pretty
7) definitely pretty
8) very pretty, beautiful
9) very beautiful, gorgeous
10) world class beauty
LikeLike
Vincent-
“So essentially all hipsters are herbs?”
–pretty much. But they do indeed have a way with the cute/hot girls. It’s their inner game, like Thursday said, as far as I can tell. There are girls that value brains above looks, and a lot of them are pretty so they are cool with dating the less good looking guys who have this easy going manner about them. DC is chuck full of these couples.
LikeLike
Vasafaxa, love of the obese has always been a niche or culturally specific. It’s not normal to even be obese.
What may be confusing you is the prevalence of obesity in the U.S. and western cultures in which people are eating a lot of processed food, soy, refined salt and sugar, and polyunsaturated vegetable oils. When the cheap food is fat-making, it becomes normal to be fat.
The cheap food used to be fresh fruits and vegetables, and livestock, milk, and eggs that were raised by you or someone near you though. It is actually quite difficult to get fat on a diet of unrefined, unprocessed, fresh food.
So most of the bigger women from paintings in the past were either old, meaning they had some long, relatively sedentary years to build up a good layer of fat, or they were more “robust” and not actually fat like we think of fat today unless we’re very seriously over-programmed.
The size differential between men and women is an important aspect of attraction because it’s important to perceptions os femininity. The cultures in which this is not the case are those in which the wife’s fat is viewed somewhat similarly to the wife’s jewelry in the west. The women are “blinged up” through fattening to show that they belong to someone.
A heavier woman is also harder to kidnap, but that’s another story. In some places, dowries for women are so high, and men generally so poor that some men will resort to kidnapping women, “corrupting” them, and then contacting the parents or previous husband to negotiate a deal for the “damaged goods”.
So it’s a tradeoff…a popular one in some cultures, but it’s still a tradeoff. When a girl is fattened up, she looks like an obvious babymaker, no longer pure and nubile.
So some men in these cultures have updated, and are looking for a less traditional woman, and therefore a slimmer one. I suppose the only problem with that is if slim starts being conflated with cheap.
LikeLike
@Dougie
I’m glad somebody is keepin’ it real up in this hizzouse.
LikeLike
Way back when I first wrote up my list of male heartbreaker types, someone here – I think it was Thursday – suggested that I ought to have included a fifth type of male heartbreaker (in addition to Alpha, Maverick Alpha, Artful Dodger, and Byronic) – the “sweet, sensitive guy”.
At the time, I thought I already had this man covered in my sub-types, but now I’m inclined to agree with Thursday. I believe the Herb who is successful with women is in fact a type of male heartbreaker – though not all Herbs are heartbreakers too – who is sometimes known among women as a SNAG, or Sensitive, New-Age Guy. These are men who have learned to use their sensitivity, or in many cases their appearance of sensitivity, to woo women. They may cry at movies; they are always kind to old people and children; they make a big, public fuss over dogs and other pets. They laugh about being unsuccessful with women. They embrace left-wing causes, even if they have to pretend, and they may even call themselves feminists.
Like betas, they make friends with women first; unlike betas, they do not stay in LJBF territory. They pursue long-term relationships but may well be secretly unfaithful to their women. Some of them are former betas who have discovered Game and know how to attract and hold women’s attention by playing on their insecurities. They have a big edge over other Game-players because they don’t look or sound threatening at all. Women who are frightened of being hurt or deceived – and there are many of them – prefer men like this.
LikeLike
anoukange
With or without you is not one of the greatest love songs of all time…
Its one of the greatest Cuckholdery songs of all time…
Read the Lyrics
LikeLike
I agree with you on one thing though..
Herbs have very – tight Inner game.
Just look at Jesus… king of the Herbs!
LikeLike
Vasafaxa, love of the obese has always been a niche or culturally specific. It’s not normal to even be obese.
—
That’s why I didn’t say fat or obese. I said above average BMI, But most men here would consider many of those women in the paintings not the ideal body type.
Also I’m not just basing my arugment on that. If you look at the article you can also see that they did a survey of third world countries and found they perferred heavier women. This does not mean obese or even fat. It just means a little more weight than the barbie that most men would consider, while still retaining ideal W to H ratio.
LikeLike
Great Post. Must be said that it is rare to see an Herb with a “cute” girl. More often they are with plain Janes, pragmatic Asians and stern & controlling feminists (the male accesory role). The Herbs I’ve known often married their college or high school sweethearts…they don’t fare so well in the post college singles scene, where being a schlub gets you a quick DSQ with discerning and more experienced hotties.
LikeLike
Max–
Paul’s wife birthed him 8 children who all look like him. She stays home to raise them while he tours the world over and plays to sold out stadiums. Bono/Paul Hewson is not a guy paying for some other dude’s kids. He may be a wee little alpha man standing at only 5’4″ but he is still swings mighty alpha balls. “With or without you” is a binaural masterpiece. Ask any musician. Hell, ask your own ears.
LikeLike
I call bullshit. All men like women who are severely under “average” BMI.
WINK WINK
LikeLike
anoukange
The reason the song causes Global G tingle’s is that it triggers the deepest instinct of all.. the cuckholdery instinct.
LikeLike
Uuuuuuu:
Abrazos y besos de Tupac,
That was fun!
Congrats on getting that horrible translation correct.
But you what is really fun? Scissoring with Pupu.
Try it! You’ll like it.
LikeLike
@Doug1
“”She’s keeping him on hold while still looking for more alpha guys. His virtue to her is that she finally found someone who does want to commit. She no longer feels so carefree about blowing such guys off. His watching over her like a hawk signals his lack of security in his relationship with her and is evidence that he is fucking her a little. He instinctively knows there’s a good chance she’ll succumb to a more alpha guy and that he’ll lose out.””
Good read on the situation. I saw them out last night at a local hang out. She was literally all over me—kino, hugs, doggie dinner bowl eyes, laughing at everything I say no matter how lame. I totally played it cool.
I see this as the ultimate “shit-test” for that guy.
From this, I’ve observed a few things and learnings: women’s emotions are timeless….guys tend to think more linear. They want to see the woman they’re gaming often. Women seem to be able to go longer periods without seeing the object of their desire and still have the same feelings—IF INITIAL ATTRACTION WAS CREATED.
Secondly, I’ve begun to listen more to what women…often my female friends say…about men.
“I want someone strong, someone to protect me….someone who knows what they want”…these are the 3 elements of attraction. They may not understand the psychology, but as Mystery says, it’s “hardwired” into their brains.
The one thing I’m not clear on in “gaming” and women’s emotions is the role of “anger” in a woman.
What’s it mean when a women is “angry”? Does that mean they don’t want to see you? They’re thinking of you? What’s the dynamic with anger?
I’ve had situations where women I’ve known have suddenly become “cold”…and there’s always some element of jealousy or resentment that was unspoken that is somehow brought to the surface.
I’m not sure how to use their “anger” in game….if at all. Any thoughts?
LikeLike
Dougie Wuggie:
A 5 is ten pounds overweight, bitchy with a smelly vag but whose fat tits which can be appealing when you’re really drunk.
That’s more like a 4.
Not necessarily. It is entirely possible to encounter a chubby 6. I see ’em all the time. What I mean is, they are 6’s in all other aspects: early twenties (i.e., youth = doubleplusgood), appreciable HWR, doe eyes, full lips, triangular face…
BUT
They are about 10 pounds overweight. The chub obscures the natural lines and angles of their facial bone structure, and they have a little pooch in the belly. But the fat is taut and not jiggly. I’m reminded here of that girl Stephanie Grace. I know Roissy likes the gingers so he gave her high marks, but the pic I saw suggested a doughy six, maybe 6.5. These kinds of chicks are ubiquitous. They are the girls who get my dick hard, but I would *never* be satisfied with them long-term.
A girl has to reach anoukange levels of beauty before I start getting any sort of romantic feelings.
LikeLike
Scissoring? What the heckitty heck. I was expecting fireworks, huuuuge explosions and all you give me is a big fat duddy reply.
*101 thumbs down*
ps-sex talk doesn’t work with *every* girl. Perhaps it’s time you tried a different approach? 🙂
Sweet dreams Roissyland!
LikeLike
walawala–
I’d need context.
Anger is a very basic emotion. There is no single answer, other than to act calm about it. For one thing it will be different when you’re in a relationship, even for a short time so far, and when you’re in earlier stages. Also why did she get angry?
However, it never helps her feelings for you to supplicate her. If you did do something genuinely wrong and you recognize that, tell her she’s right, and apologize matter of factly, not ashamedly or trying to get her forgiveness. Be indifferent to that – but not to her. Don’t apologize again. Tell her you already did, and then occupy yourself with something else.
If you didn’t do anything wrong or it was less wrong that what she did, tease her about it. Poke fun at her assumptions. Or it might be more appropriate to treat it as a silly outburst, and comfort her – which will set her back, if you haven’t done that with her before especially.
LikeLike
Clio:
I believe I asked about where Percy Shelley (certainly a heartbreaker) and others of his ilk who are into all sorts of fashionable left wing causes fit into your scheme. I’m not sure I would call Shelley a herb though.
LikeLike
alias clio–
They haven’t learned game as it’s taught by Roissy or other PUA teachers.
They may well have consciously emulated what works in inducing women into LTR’s for guys like them by emulating other successful herbs. They may have had some of this inately. For example, simply not chasing, but being very sympatico and comfort building, while signaling loyalty, good stable (and maybe very good) provider capabilities, and total non-playerness, can work for herbs with usually older girls near or beyond their thirties who been burned by players. They represent esp. for higher T girls a relatively attractive, at least in one way (compatibility, and non hassle) form of settling.
LikeLike
@Doug1 Context: Gamed her for 3 months, lots of push-pull. Suddenly she got spooked, said she didn’t want to “date”….I said “neither do I.
There was pull-back…I stepped back. She started trying to reach out…not strong enough in my estimation just “hi” or trying to get my attention but nothing solid, was polite, but not giving her the attention she once enjoyed.
Three weeks ago, we were at a party, I grabbed her, danced, started chatting, moved her around, introduced her to some friends, ass grab, she’s got arm around me, invite out to party with the gang…she declines. Next day she’s ignoring me….then telling me how handsome I look, then suddenly cuts off contact….writes that I didn’t “appreciate” how she tried to keep our “friendship”…
Since then, I look through her and vice versa. Seems that anger is stemming from something deeper and unspoken.
I had this situation before. I mishandled it badly by as you say “supplicating”…reaching out to that girl. It only drove her away.
In this situation, I’m following all the gaming advice—gaming other girls in front of her, not letting her bother me, not engaging her, just otherwise not succumbing to the drama.
My only thoughts are: by not giving her any attention, by acting normal, by avoiding the vortex of her drama by not “appreciating” her crumbs of attention, she got angry.
The only reason I even bring this up is because I mishandled it in the past. So far, I think I’ve been alpha and strong.
LikeLike
ps-sex talk doesn’t work with *every* girl. Perhaps it’s time you tried a different approach?
Maybe it’s time you had my cock in yo mouf.
Gap toof in yo mouf so my dicks GOTS ta fit.
LikeLike
The fact that a herb will have usually managed to score a cute yuppie chick will fill you with violent feelings toward him.
Sorry to say but that sounds rather weak. Resentment toward success? As someone said above, there is something seemingly alpha to herb obliviousness. A herb is someone who genuinely does not care. Also, I have to say that male obsession with clothes and style unaccompanied by sufficient alpha cred is rather faggy. If one is going to nitpick about color, accessories or whatnot, one had better be mindful of not sending the wrong vibe.
LikeLike
Ah, but what if the plan was not to die, but to be taken off the cross and nursed back to health in order to appear later as the “resurrected Messiah”? That makes a lot more sense to me, and is a lot more alpha.
Keep in mind that in the modern Middle East, the guerrilla leader never, never drives the truck or flies the plane into the building. He gets omegas to do that for him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passover_Plot
LikeLike
@walawala: “ Next day she’s ignoring me….then telling me how handsome I look, then suddenly cuts off contact….writes that I didn’t “appreciate” how she tried to keep our “friendship”…
Since then, I look through her and vice versa. Seems that anger is stemming from something deeper and unspoken.
Women’s anger is not like men’s anger. So, don’t worry about it. Also, don’t try to psychoanalyze her. It’s unlikely that the anger is stemming from something ‘deeper’.
I think you’re making a mistake by looking through her. That makes it look as if you’re hurt, which makes you beta-like. The key to Alpha-ness is aloofness. In this case, it would mean smiling, give her a nodding acknowledgment and then going to talk to more interesting people.
From what you’ve said, I’d guess you’ve put yourself into the friend beta-provider zone and any attempt by you to move yourself into the lover zone is greeted with anger. As has been mentioned on this blog before, women are status obsessed and once someone is assigned a status by a woman it takes a herculean effort to change it.
The best way to change it is indirectly.
If you’re an Alpha, you have options. Be polite, but aloof to this chick. But otherwise, make sure your having fun with other people, other girls.
LikeLike
Vasafaxa, I get you now. It’s just that the pro fat often try to fetishize everybody, and this is as annoying to me as when the anti fat do.
Most people until very recently in history, lived on the edge of starvation. The lucky ones who didn’t weren’t swimming in Bisphenol A or eating large amounts of factory food. So art either way can’t be compared to women in the west today.
Today’s common fatness is a far cry from the past’s and less industrialized area’s uncommon or purposeful fatness.
There are many issues involved that most men aren’t aware of, and wouldn’t believe if they were spelled out. So as individuals, the ones who can get over it and get on with life should be praised for that, and the ones who can’t should be allowed to expatriate or bring women in from wherever they like.
It’s going to be a long battle against the people responsible for this mess. I encourage people to educate themselves and vote with their dollars, and spend less time talking trash about people whose situation they know nothing about.
If you took out all the overinflated numbers of people who aren’t actually overweight or obese, there would be no obesity epidemic to cry about. There would however, remain a problem of an increase in cancer, diabetes, and other problems that will exist even when the last fat chick starts taking whatever miracle drug comes out that solves the so-called epidemic.
LikeLike
Tarl, alpha is certainly not being covard, that’s the problem, its not alfa to hide under a wig to be rescued on titanic.
[editor: maybe not, but it is the smart play.]
LikeLike
“Herbs typically don’t attract a woman’s attention right away. The secret to herbs getting women is that over time, the woman will start to wonder why the herb doesn’t pay any special attention to her. The herb will not be moved by the dress that turns most betas into pathetic idiots. The herb will not respond to girlish charms. The herb just happily and obliviously continues doing whatever it is that he does every day. A high-T woman won’t be able to stand not being acknowledged as a woman, especially by a man who should be happy to have her attentions. As a result, she’ll ramp up her attentions to the herb and may eventually ask him out. On the date, the herb will be perfectly polite and won’t try anything sexual at the end. Repeat a few more times, and the herb will find himself with a girlfriend without even trying.”
–my god this is right, so it’s worth having it on the thread twice. I would even add that women with a low T will also be in pursuit of this laid-back man. My heart has never been broken by an alpha male but it was crushed by a policy/suit wearing/trying to save the world/ works @ the World Bank herb. He left me going mad over trying to figure out what he was thinking and why he did what he did, etc. He kept me intrigued and eventually I was at his mercy, the bastard. Another bonus to their nonchalant attitude is that some of them are a molten of lust under their cool exterior. They have ‘contrast game’ and it can be hot. It would be the equivalent of a lady in the streets//freak in the sheets for you men. Herbs (the higher up, more sophisticated ones) could rule game if they cared to.
LikeLike
@Anoukie
Another bonus to their nonchalant attitude is that some of them are a molten of lust under their cool exterior
Do tell.
LikeLike
Tupac–
“A girl has to reach anoukange levels of beauty before I start getting any sort of romantic feelings.”
….awwww, thanks 🙂 you should feel (aka smack) my ass if you want to really fall in love. hee, hee…
also, are you mixed black/white?? I think I saw a small pic of you once a long time ago and you looked mixed..or was that not you?
LikeLike
Roses are red
Sunflowers are yellow
Tupac is extremely ugly inside
And now he will never even get a hello!
LikeLike
Oh dear. The ladies on this thread are getting so competitive with one another, first Default, and now Tupac. It must be something in the air…
LikeLike
anoukange –
That’s a paradox, as the crux of their “game” is that they don’t care. They don’t accept external notions of “success” and have realized that their own cock and balls and time are precious resources, not to be bestowed upon the unworthy.
If there is any chance for the family to be saved from obliteration, it rests squarely upon the sloped shoulders of a successful herb revolution. Only it will be a quiet, private revolution – a jihad in the classical sense.
LikeLike
@Clio
Like betas, they make friends with women first; unlike betas, they do not stay in LJBF territory. They pursue long-term relationships but may well be secretly unfaithful to their women. Some of them are former betas who have discovered Game and know how to attract and hold women’s attention by playing on their insecurities. They have a big edge over other Game-players because they don’t look or sound threatening at all. Women who are frightened of being hurt or deceived – and there are many of them – prefer men like this.
Clio, you are quite right to point out that some herbs can be just as dangerous to women as overt players. Sometimes this is conscious, sometimes not. Because a woman tends to trust a herb in a way that most smart women, at any rate, do not trust overt players, the consequences of betrayal by a herb can be far more devastating psychologically than a pump and dump by a player. There is a much higher chance, for instance, of the woman blaming herself.
LikeLike
And, thinking back, I’ve known far more women who’ve had their hearts broken by herbs than by players, many of whom merely bruise the pride.
LikeLike
mgtow: “By your classification, there are also many ‘betas’ who indulge in porn but would never marry(hence no harridan wives). They stay single, avoid dating, and would rather spend their enormous disposable income on hobbies (video games). Or they spend their time focusing on their careers, instead of chatting up harlots at the workplace.
I don’t think these guys are betas. They’re just ghosts. They have gone their own way to the extreme, gone ghost and are voluntarily celibate (not those whiny ‘incels’). Some guys are wired that way, or have a lower libido, so it works for them.”
The idea of a ‘ghost’ is a solid niche designation, and one I haven’t seen spoken of in discussions surrounding alpha/beta/omega male statuses. I am a ‘ghost,’ insofar as you’ve defined the status, and at the age of 23 am set enough in my habits to remain that way.
For me, at least, it’s a way to willfully abandon the chase of girls and sex, as the costs of doing so far outweigh any benefits. I’m socially awkward and anxious to the utmost degree, and any given social interaction takes its toll on my psyche. The degree to which I agree with the tenets of ‘game’ (and its stated realities of female attraction) is the degree to which I am convinced to continue ignoring the feminine in favor of the fantastic (video games, books, movies, etc.). A guy like me, who can’t order a pizza on the telephone without his anxiety kicking in, has no business pathetically pretending to be confident or suave in competitive, sexually-charged situations.
LikeLike
SD-
Good morning sunshine! Or should I say afternoon….?
See: Monsieur M on my blog (as you have I’m sure).
He had impeccable etiquette given the crowds he had to run in. He was always calm, cool and collected (my kryptonite) in public and was a passionate, intense and dominating lover. LETHAL!!! Anger “game” has its place, as does assholery but the man must lay the girl properly before pulling either. Mousier M had this mastered and left me reeling from it. It was a trip to be at a function with him as I watched him work a room and be what most would define as a very diplomatic herb and know that he was all alpha behind closed doors.
LikeLike
meeee—
sorry luv, I didn’t mean to step on any territory there. Please forgive me. 😦 If you had claim, I will not compete.
Dilbert-
yep, agreed.
Clio-
yep, agreed.
LikeLike
Spook: social anxiety can manifest in some contexts and not others. Is it different with strangers than friends, e.g.?
Social circle game might work a lot better than bar game, e.g.
LikeLike
Trying to fit herbs into the whole alpha-beta-omega continum is really doing my head in.
I do recognise the herb genre very very well however.
Matters become even more complicated when you add in the possibility of one type masking themselves as another for seduction purposes (Valmont in Dangerous Liaisons was well able to assume herb tendencies to lull a virtuous woman into quiescence)
Then there’s the other question of whether, if the mask is in place long enough, does the actual nature change? Are betas who become proficient at Game now alphas or merely disguised betas?
Then we have the whole bedroom/non-bedroom distinction, herb outside the bedroom, alpha within, that Anouk’s just raised. The reverse can presumably also be true.
I think we need someone to tease out all these distinctions more clearly, maybe with the assistance of a Venn diagram, graph or (SDaedalus is really pushing her luck here)….stick figure diagrams?
It is Friday, after all, and loyal commenters deserve a doggy biscuit occasionally.
LikeLike
Spook, I certainly appreciate your point.
I too am a ghost (which is a concept that needs exploration) but at my age I feel it’s a well-earned privilege (in a ’round the block’ kind of way) whereas at 23 it seems you’ve thrown in the towel before you’ve even given yourself a chance to indulge in the many Earthly delights.
LikeLike
It appears the herb is standing in front of a viewing window at some type of zoo. I belive we all know which side of the glass he is on. If you squint your eyes you can almost make out the faces of disgust and shame peering inward at his extremely emasculated pussiness.
C. H.
LikeLike
WRT the Jesus: Alpha, Herb or Beta discussion…
Betas don’t have enough charisma to lead a cult that leads its core disciples in to a worldview that causes them to die for its cause.
I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.
–Napoleon Bonaparte
As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene….No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.
-Albert Einstein
The impact of Jesus is undeniably huge. It affected the way western civ even counts the passage of time. “year of our lord 2010”
Beta, He is Not.
But the question of Alpha-hood or Herby Hebrew is another matter indeed, and its determination lies within resolving the question of his virginity at death (Roman Catholic Church’s position)
or Rock Star like banging his many groupies or was it shagging a known prostitute and even marrying her. (post modern liberal theological notions)
Remember an Alpha is able to bang any girl at will, but it doesn’t follow that he is required to.
LikeLike
Anouk! Nope, no claim on that emotional outbursting boy. You can have him. Be careful he might knock out your two front teef and you shall never be able to bite into an another apple again! Anyhoo…I do have claim on sexy Roissy! Back off ladies, I bite!! Grrrr!!!
Off to work I go!
Happy Friday Y’all!
Lovin’ you “Roissy”-Land.
LikeLike
Sheeee!!!
Anyhoo…I do have claim on sexy Roissy!
You two do make a lovely couple, so sweet, & so in love with yourselves, sorry, one another.
I’m more than happy to acknowledge your prior stake in the Gold Mine of Game, but you’d better check with the other girls too just to be sure, I suspect you may have a few rival prospectors out there, this will be fun to watch.
Back off ladies, I bite!! Grrrr!!!
Be careful, or we may have to muzzle you.
LikeLike
SDaedalus, herb is just a style and clique like rockers or pot heads. My friend I call “TB” the chick magnet is a herb who’s survived two Burning Man festivals. He ended up bartending at both.
If I had to analyze it, the herb is like the “sneaky fucker” who disguises himself as a female to get into the mating pileup. Indeed, TB and those like him tend to turn just about any party into an orgy, or at least the afterparty.
He makes people feel extremely comfortable, and then clothes start coming off, and then people start shagging. I find my way out of such gatherings at the point that more than two girls are making out because orgies are not my scene.
It is interesting to see how these things come about though. The thing about the alpha herbs though, is that they’re usually “demonic” pretty. They have that 70’s soft porn kind of face…like a young Michael York or Rutger Hauer. For a current example, look at Borys Starosz.
This image is like the perfect example of what I mean:

It’s like, almost your Gay best friend, but not quite.
LikeLike
A lot of people are confusing the unthinking smug conformity of the Herd-Herb with the unthinking, arrogant, non-conformity of a Mr. Know-It-All.
The Herbs might as well be women, and among other things are totally convinced of the absolute wonderfulness of Things-As-They Are.
The Know-It-All’s tend to all Know different things. They don’t necessarily get along, and they can be rich… or poor.
Can you imagine a lower-class Herb? Ha!
Can you imagine a Herb getting in a screaming argument with anyone?
HA! HA! HA!
Can you imagine a lower-class Mr. Know-It-All 9-11 Truther in a screaming fight with an upper-middle class Mr. Know-It-All who believes the Muslims are on a Jihad against the West?
Oh yes, I think we can.
LikeLike
@Nicole
Thanks.
I think though that the term “herb” as Roissy uses it denotes more than just a style or clique, it is someone who is impervious to what other people think, which intersects with (but may not necessarily be the same as) that detachment which is the mark of the alpha.
Really, what I’d like to see are conclusive definitions of alpha and beta males, can anyone point me in the right direction on this? Anything on this site in particular?
Yes, I am lazy, sorry. But would be most grateful.
70s soft-porn face – brilliant. Another example of that genre, apart from Michael and Rutger, is Jon Voight.
LikeLike
Markku
” A herb is someone who genuinely does not care. ”
Roissy’s Herb = Vox’s Sigma
Do you think?
LikeLike
Ok, I see that in the post on Defining the Alpha Male, published elsewhere on this site, states as follows:-
“Make no mistake, at the most fundamental level the CRUX of a man’s worth is measured by his desirability to women, whether he chooses to play the game or not….”
Insofar as some herbs can leave a trail of broken hearts behind them (SDaedalus has witnessed this with her own eyes) these herbs would have to be described as alphas according to the above definition.
SDaedalus doesn’t believe that alphas, betas and herbs are separate species. What she thinks is that there are some alpha herbs and some beta herbs, maybe even some omega herbs with the alphaness of a herb being linked to
(a) looks
(b) other status factors
(c) degree of herbishness
Although uberherbishness will probably not be enough without (a) or (b) (it could easily be perceived as omeganess), ironically, once (a) or (b) are present in a reasonable degree, then the higher (c) is the better.
The stylish Roissian alphas need to acknowledge their alpha herb brothers. Women, in turn, need to accept that bad fashion sense in a man is not a guarantee of fidelity.
Question: is Woody Allen an alpha herb?
LikeLike
Keep talking ladies! I’m liking what I see regarding the potential herbs have.
Seems that if “herb” is the material you’re starting with, it is important to figure out what is the “right kind of game” to enhance our natural abilities to draw women to our beds.
This topic deserves some serious consideration, because I have a feeling the whole “asshole game” approach might be counterproductive for a herb learning game. Someone or several someones have said that it is important to play on your **strengths**, not your weaknesses. If I am hearing you ladies right, the herbs you know have some significant strengths that need to be preserved, while at the same time addressing some of the shortcomings.
LikeLike
Spook, isn’t this “ghost” you’re describing really the essence of the omega?
LikeLike
Walawala
I can’t read the situation you describe very well at all. Probably because you’re leaving out crucial information.
I will say that three months is a counter productively long time to have been gaming her, if you’ve done so in anything more than a mildly flirtatious sort of way. She’s not going to feel swept off her feet by you, that’s for sure. If there’s been some clear impediment to you’re getting together before, such as her long distance bf or better your own relationship, that would be better, but still, intensively gaming her for a long time is going to dilute anything you did now, or tend to. Having
LikeLike
sdaedalus
“Trying to fit herbs into the whole alpha-beta-omega continum is really doing my head in.”
Vox Day made a credible effort to define and categorize men in a broader sense than simply alpha vs. beta, in this post:
Roissy and the limits of game
I don’t know that he is “right”, but it may be illuminating for you to peruse. (Roissy, I hope you don’ t mind the link–Vox *is* a fan of yours…)
LikeLike
Uuuuuuuuuu:
Roses are red
Sunflowers are yellow
Tupac is extremely ugly inside
And now he will never even get a hello!
Wow, that was terrible.
Anouk! Nope, no claim on that emotional outbursting boy. You can have him. Be careful he might knock out your two front teef and you shall never be able to bite into an another apple again!
Aw sweetie, I was just quoting that eminent sage and scholar Dr. Dre. The idea is that the gap tooth *already* exists, thereby allowing my gargantuan member easy entry. I would *never* suggest knocking your teeth out beforehand. That would be uncouth.
anouk:
also, are you mixed black/white??
Ixnay on the oogieschvay.
LikeLike
Aww thank you, Desert Cat. I am going out, so only have time for some very brief additional comments.
Let’s contrast the herb and the player, defining both herb and player in terms of the Roissian ideal.
In both cases, a big part of the attraction is that they do not allow themselves to be dictated to by women.
In the case of a herb, this is because he is naturally impervious to what people think of him generally (as exemplified by the bad fashion sense and general uncoolness)
I don’t think it could be said that a Roissian player is naturally impervious to what people think of him, otherwise he would not be a cool, hip dude (very few people are naturally cool, coolness is a learnt rather than a natural state). Rather a player has learnt to feign imperviousness, at least where women are concerned, because he knows it works.
I don’t think imperviousness is enough on its own for either herb or player, it has to be combined with something else too e.g. style, good looks, charm, wit, curiosity, status, or a combination of the above. Herbs will tend to score lower on style and curiosity than players, so will be more dependent on good looks and status to make up the additional ingredient.
Herbs who don’t have sufficient additional factors together with the imperviousness will not be attractive to women. Those who do, will.
Herbs in general are going to have a lower notch count than a Roissian player because (a) they don’t make as good an initial impression, they have to grow on you, and that takes time (b)they don’t have as much motivation, because they really don’t care. So if desirability is defined in terms of notch count, or even notch count potential, a lot of herbs would be excluded (though some would easily manage to qualify)
But if you define desirability in terms of the 1-10 rating of the women who fall for herbs, herbs often do surprisingly well. Also, in terms of the bonding process, women often become much more attached to herbs than to players, they let their defences down more. I had my heart broken for the first time by an uber herb at 19, who left a trail of platonically broken hearts behind him. This rather put me off herbs, but I have always been intrigued by their success.
I do think that herbs have a particular appeal to the young and inexperienced woman, who often finds them less scary than a player. Presumably the cleverest players are adept at herbifying themselves when necessary.
LikeLike
I am sorry that the “very brief” additional comments went on for half a page, I got carried away. Au revoir.
LikeLike
PS
I think to use the term “herb game” as a contrast to “asshole game” is incorrect.
I think there are two types of herb game, one played by the natural or “unconscious” herb, who really doesn’t give a damn about what anyone thinks. Such a herb is often blunt, and assholish, not intentionally but as part of his natural personality.
The other type of herb game, is assumed or conscious herb game, where a player deliberately gets in touch with his herb side for seduction purposes, to make himself seem less threatening. Often combined with assumed or conscious beta or nice guy game (yes, there is such a thing, but, like shape-shifting, you have to be a really advanced Gamer to pull it off, novice Gamers will simply sink in the quicksand of beatitude if they attempt such a thing).
LikeLike
’round here herbs get smoked like that high grade chronic.
Iv’e never heard this term “herb” before in reference to a man, but i totally get it. Herbs are fucking lame guyz, no two ways about it.
LikeLike
And that photo of the schmo with the wheel-bag attached is the sole reason why i instantly “got it”, so self explanatory. what a word.
LikeLike
sdaedalus
“I think there are two types of herb game, one played by the natural or “unconscious” herb, who really doesn’t give a damn about what anyone thinks. Such a herb is often blunt, and assholish, not intentionally but as part of his natural personality.
The other type of herb game, is assumed or conscious herb game, where a player deliberately gets in touch with his herb side for seduction purposes, to make himself seem less threatening.”
So it would seem that for the first type, there is an inherent contradiction in “learning game”. It would almost be to undo his natural attraction which is not to really care, because by definition someone learning game has to care, else why try?
Here’s a little history: back in the day (20+ years ago), I recognize myself in this herb description, both style and substance-wise. I slipped seemingly effortlessly into relationships that ended up in bed, just as described here. I broke at least one heart pretty badly. The one time I really cared, while pursuing a 9.5, I made every bad Beta mistake in the book. Then later I got married (classic herb move). Now separated and learning game for 1) LTR game purposes and 2) in preparation for being single again. (Because of 1), 2) is becoming less and less likely.)
So if I end up back in the pool, I really don’t want to mess up what worked back in the day to get me laid, unless there is no real way to consciously maintain the best herb benefits while adding elements of game. This list: “style, good looks, charm, wit, curiosity, status, or a combination of the above” is useful, and you’re right that curiosity is one thing I could bump. I’m really pretty settled and like it that way, but if it helps…
As for style, y’all are cracking me up. Let me describe my style up ’til about 9 months ago–I called it “combat hawaiian”: 511 tac pants (basically cargo pants for operators), sandals (mandals) with black socks, topped with a loud hawaiian shirt. I looked godawful and it made me giggle inside every day that I did, and was somehow able to get away with wearing that getup at work for years.
LikeLike
meeee–
“….Anyhoo…I do have claim on sexy Roissy!….”
–this, I knew. 🙂
Tupac–
come again?
LikeLike
Nicole –
“It’s rare for anybody here under the age of 30 to be really fat. Curvy, maybe, but not really fat. So when talking to Brando, I was thinking that maybe he was so insistent that the girls weren’t so hot because he’s not American, or at least not culturally generic, and his standards were higher than visible ribs.”
Where’s “here”? Apologies if I missed it somewhere.
LikeLike
Sexy Sdaedalus!
Rivals? Ha! I laugh a deep hearty laugh at my so called rivals! Haaaardy har har!!!They aint got nothin’ on me. *snap* *snap* Muzzle? Oh, Sexy Sdaedalus, play nice!!
Tupac! You didn’t like my poem? It was straight from vulnerable heart. *sigh*
Shot to the heart and you’re to blame! Darling you giiiive looove a bad name! Bad name!
How the heck am I supposed to know about your silly rap lingo tingo? I thought you wanted to punch me out. I’m a lover and a hugger not a fighter!
LikeLike
anoukange
come again?
What did anoukange say to the chimpanzee on the bus?
LikeLike
sdaedalus–
alpha /= player.
An alpha also does not need to be a clear “asshole” – but he can’t be the opposite. It’s just that that’s the easiest way of alphaing up when starting to make a transition from down in the beta weeds, and so it’s taught by PUA’s everywhere. It’s the opposite of “being a good guy” or “being nice”, and so is easy to grasp. It probably is often a good first step, but if overdone and not toned down after crude beginnings, being a real asshole a lot of the time will definitely make a lasting ltr hard.
A man who’s alpha enough has the ability to be a player, he just doesn’t have to exercise it,. If he doesn’t then that’s probably because it’s how he was raised and what he believes in. He also may care more about career success than being a total player leaves enough time for. Many alphas do want to be considerable players when they’re younger but then often mellow more.
Being “asshole” as Roissy uses it is really sort of an aggressive relative indifference.
alpha = attracts hot girls quickly and relatively easily.
Girls that only want sex in committed relationships especially when they’re old enough to have some experience (or analytical enough) usually have lots of anti player shields up.
Herbs are sociable and often do well or very well on the official status and provider scales. They’re easy to live with. They tend to be very loyal – if not they’re not really herbs, just masquerading as one. They are high on the dad-mate scale. As in settled down for the long haul at the cost of some boredom, depending on what the woman wants.
They fit feminist prescriptions for a mate — in fact they’re significantly molded by wanting to do so in urban areas in America, which is were you find them. To some extent being an herb is a style, and to some extent it’s a personality range.
LikeLike
how has this thread veered off into “herb game?” I think R’s point is that these guys are schlubs that have become schlubs after entering a relationship; sort of a parasitical larval transformation after a succubus stole the herb’s soul. Take a guy, enter the career gal or over-placating asian gf, she implants herbdom larvae into the guy. A few months or years later, the outer husk is discarded and the herb is revealed. Next step, the herb acquires fanny packs, sock sandal outfits, and moobs.
This fate may be replicated by the dreaded female fattening program in which a girl fattens up her man to make him incapable of escaping her.
You don’t have to be alpha family man like Bob Novogratz to avoid this fate, you just have to not become so emeshed in your relationship that you decide you never have to worry about attracting females ever again.
I think Sdaedlus is referring to fake-beta-provider game or a mid-30’s career gal accepting a beta as a husband/doormat scenario.
LikeLike
Alpha – swaggers like he’s super-hung
Beta – carries himself with a magnifying glass
Herb – a superfluous attachment
————
One thing I realized wrt “asshole game”. Aren’t other men usually the first to call the guy the asshole? I notice women usually consider these guys “nice and confident” early on and only realize later that they’re really jerks. It’s the other guys who bristle up and call BS.
When I thought of the actual behavior I saw these guys displaying during the first impression, they really didn’t act like assholes. Sure, they seemed smug (highly self-satisfied) and borderline arrogant. The asshole designation really only got attached when I felt the guy dominating me with his presence. Something I guess that women either fail to notice or are actually attracted to.
It’s also the “asshole” title I ascribed to those characteristics that made me think, “I’m better than that” all these years when in reality that type of attitude would have served me greatly. Sometimes the wording really does matter in one’s mind.
LikeLike
sdaedalus–
There are other types beyond herbs that are strongest on the dad-mate side, who can and do get women 6-7-8 for LTR’s/marriage if they have status and solid money behind them.
Herbs are a style and a molding of themselves (likely starting with their mothers at an early age) to conform to feminist expressed desiderada.
A woman married to an herb is likely to want to cheat after awhile, if she has some sex drive to her and especially if she is unattached to traditional beliefs.
LikeLike
Sox, I live in Israel. Here we have national healthcare, so the peripheral costs of weight loss surgery and drugs are fairly low. Most women don’t let themselves get fat, if they have a choice. The ones who do either don’t want the surgical or pharmaceutical solution, or don’t see it as a problem.
There is however, a slowly growing obesity problem among people over 35 or so, because there is soy flour in almost all of the bread, and people have recently been convinced to switch from olive oil, butter, and schmaltz to hydrogenated and polyunsaturated vegetable oil. Soy oil is used way too much here in just about everything.
So it’s becoming much like the U.S. in that in order to have a reasonably healthy diet, you have to make almost everything from scratch.
LikeLike
Ahh ok.
Yea at first I thought you were in the U.S.
Out here in DC the sheer number of fat women (and men) under the age of 30 is depressing. It seems to be more prevalent in women though- maybe because they wear clothing that actually accentuates their fatness instead of hiding it.
LikeLike
askjoe
“how has this thread veered off into “herb game?””
Traditional PUA game is aimed at Betas and how to overcome their inherent limitations. It is my sense that Herbs have a differing set of limitations, as well as some inherent strengths, and “herb game” may take a slightly different form or emphasis.
There have been some useful insights to that end in this thread.
Doug1
“Herbs are a style and a molding of themselves (likely starting with their mothers at an early age) to conform to feminist expressed desiderada.”
Absolutely. I know exactly where it came from in my case. I grew up in the midst of the feminist revolution of the late ’60s and 70’s. As an impressionable boy and young man, it demolished any hope of my developing a correct view of manhood. Undoing that damage is a long process.
LikeLike
Absolutely fascinating Doug. You give me so much insight on certain things, thank you.
My herb was borderline alpha but his dad was out of the picture from the time he was a little kid. He was raised by a bitter mom who never remarried and he grew up in Melbourne. My two long terms had their dads around while growing up and I met both of them often. Both guys were quite different around their parents….ha, ha, like most guys probably are. The herb hated the fact that I wasn’t career ambitious (I aim to make a living off of just art, but I don’t need something huge) and I always wondered how that mattered. It was a big disconnect with us.
Could it be said that most, if not all herbs were raised by their mothers only? Are herbs momma’s boys by default?
LikeLike
You are all conflating Herb with broader categories of slackers, hipsters, and SWPL upper-middle-class types.
Herb may or may not be a slacker: he could be quite high-achieving in a framework made for him by others.
The fashion sense Herr Chateau describes is not defining of Herb (note “hipster herb”): it’s more a matter of whether he has any swagger or hell, any discernable personality.
Herb is soft.
Herb is smug.
Herb has no rough edges, but Herb is also unpolished.
Herb is beta, but Herb is not frustrated: he’s happy with what he gets.
Herb is not at all manly. Herb can, however, be really bitchy.
Herb will go to co-ed baby showers. I mean, how could he possibly refuse?
Herb believes any heterosexual man more masculine than him who’s not the AMOG is probably a date rapist. Yes, there are guys out there who have drunk that deeply of the kool-aid. They’re Herbs.
Herb hates people who drive fast. (read some of the comments here! http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/16/2154238 )
Herb thinks DUI laws aren’t strict enough, too.
Herb thinks hunting is about hurting helpless animals.
Herb thinks the AMOG is a natural. Herb would never try to be the AMOG.
Herb probably has Lisa-Simpson-leftist politics, unless something else is expected of him.
Herb accepts his fate as a beta chump, and has internalized it: any cracking of the egg is a threat. All this “PUA” talk is just a smoke screen for date rape.
Herb points out things like “chicks are baby chickens”. Herb will correct the old use of “sex” to “gender”.
Herb wouldn’t spend too much on a car, because they’re all going to be electric soon anyway. I think I heard this one as early as 1990.
Herb thinks truth is determined by his betters.
LikeLike
JB: “Spook: social anxiety can manifest in some contexts and not others. Is it different with strangers than friends, e.g.?
Social circle game might work a lot better than bar game, e.g.”
True enough, but as I’ve made a conscious decision to be celibate, my awkwardness actually works in my favor. Nothing kills a girl’s interest (or ‘tingle’ as roissy would have it) more quickly than nervousness, and I have that in abundance. I live out my life untempted.
LikeLike
Anoukange—
They probably do tend to be mama’s boys, but no weren’t necessarily raised by their mother only.
However they were likely raised in a household where “respecting strong women” (which often meant deferring to them or certainly having no trouble in doing that) is a cardinal virtue, and something they were raised to do instinctively. Few herbs probably have strong, manly fathers who clearly were the heads of their household growing up.
Remember also though that boys are taught to be herbs in school, especially if they’re from a household in the upper third or so. They’ve been sheltered from aggressive guys in school, etc. Herb and athlete even at the minor level tend to be mutually exclusive.
LikeLike
Thank you for all the useful replies, such a treat to come back in after an evening out to find them waiting for me.
@Desert Cat
So it would seem that for the first type, there is an inherent contradiction in “learning game”. It would almost be to undo his natural attraction which is not to really care, because by definition someone learning game has to care, else why try?
Yes, I agree, a herb who does not care has a strategic advantage, when he starts to care he verges into beta territory, of course, if he is capable of learning Game he can up himself into alpha territory. But he is taking a risk. Basically, only herbs capable of learning Game should allow themselves to care, and even then there would be a difficult transitional period.
However, this does depend where exactly the herb lies in terms of herbism, and also where he lies on the alpha/beta thing to start with. A herb with low herbism, and low additional advantages, will be a beta and had best start learning Game if he does not like this. In contrast, a herb with high herbism, and relatively high additional advantages, is probably best off not changing as he will do as well as a fairly competent player. The only point of changing here would be intellectual exercise or the desire to capture a 9 or a 10.
LikeLike
Sexy Sdaedalus! Rivals? Ha! I laugh a deep hearty laugh at my so called rivals! Haaaardy har har!!!They aint got nothin’ on me. *snap* *snap* Muzzle? Oh, Sexy Sdaedalus, play nice!!
So sweet, you are a real little charmer, so lively, but save the flirting for your lord & master & his full-length mirror, ’tis wasted on me alas, chicks have never really done it for SDaedalus, we can be best girly friends though as long as you don’t bite any of my other friends.
LikeLike
@AskJoe
I think Sdaedlus is referring to fake-beta-provider game or a mid-30′s career gal accepting a beta as ahusband/doormat scenario.
A lot of what appears to be successful herb game is in fact fake-beta-provider game. However there is a category of herbs who are genuine herbs who actually pull. I don’t think this can be explained as a mid 30s career gal settling since I’ve seen these guys pull with much younger women, particularly in a college setting, it is a classic postgraduate-undergraduate dynamic. At least that was my experience in the mid to late 90s in Europe, I’m not sure whether the hookup culture & the likes of Tucker Max have changed this in the US.
@Doug
I will have a think about this. The difficulty is the overlap between the definition of alpha and the definition of herb (this is why I thought a Venn diagram might be useful, although not as much fun as a stick figure drawing). Roissy himself impliedly admits that not all herbs are beta, by implication some of them must be alpha and based on his definition of alpha this is borne out by my experience. How can compliant men pull women.
My explanation is that many herbs are not really compliant at all, they just appear compliant but they do their own thing, this ties in with the obliviousness to what people thing. Of course, there are compliant herbs out there too, and probably most herbs are beta, I just think it is ironic that sometimes, the greater the herbishness, the greater the alpha, I think Roissy makes this point too.
I don’t necessarily think herbs do tend to be that loyal, I think you may be overstating the case here. I don’t necessarily think that betas tend to be that loyal either, they just don’t get as much opportunity, if tempted they will stray.
On reflection, I think Nicole has it right and herbishness is really just a particular characteristic, like geekiness, bookishness etc. and that there are degrees of herbishness.
As such it is not possible to assess a herb’s alpha/beta cred conclusively other than on an individual basis, although I would agree that most herbs are beta, there is definitely a category of high-functioning herbs out there who cross into alpha territory.
I would however agree that sometimes extreme herbishness can help push someone into the alpha category, I also agree that for a player assumed herbishness can help pull girls who for one reason or another are resistant to player game.
I also think that there are degrees of herbishness and that this needs to be taken into account. Some herbs do care about what other people think, not perhaps to such a great degree as betas, but still enough.
I see no reason to believe that herbs are particularly loyal, certainly this was not the case with the alpha herbs I have known, many herbs, like betas, however, simply do not get the opportunity to be disloyal, alphas, on the other hand, get so much temptation it is hard to resist.
LikeLike
Ah, SDaedalus, but it’s not about loyal or disloyal. The alpha herb doesn’t believe in monogamy, and is quite clear about that.
They’re “liberated” men. 😉
LikeLike
Doug–
You have helped me realize that my herb was an alpha herb and he was just raised with feminism to a degree that it helped to tank our relationship, so the battle here against it is shared by me. I may have come full circle in my digesting of that realtionship now. Many thanks, again.
LikeLike
Sox, I haven’t been to the U.S. for a few years, or in the DC area for about 12 years. So I don’t know what it looks like at ground level at this very moment. What I saw before I left was kinda bad though.
It’s more than just the fat. It’s the shape. There are many more potato shaped women walking around looking at the scale instead of the mirror.
I became hypothyroid while living in northern Virginia. I know I wasn’t eating more because my grocery bill ($200-$250 per month for a family of 3) didn’t change the whole time I was there. I just had no energy.
I thought I was doing the right thing by eating less meat, almost no red meat, avoiding cholesterol, and all that stuff the nutritionists tell us to do. What a fool I was.
So seriously, if you want to help American women get it under control, aside of helping to get the crap out of our environment, encourage people to adhere to a natural diet. It’s not difficult. It just takes education and day to day planning so that it fits one’s schedule.
LikeLike
@Nicole
“The alpha herb doesn’t believe in monogamy, and is quite clear about that.”
I don’t know, I’ve come across
(i) alpha herbs who profess monogamy in principle but don’t keep to it in practice. They weren’t necessarily pseudo-herb players either, these guys were genuine herbs from cradle to grave.
By way of balance, I’ve also come across
(ii) alpha herbs, who profess monogamy, and do keep to it. They are a small class, but they do exist. A cynic might say they just haven’t been tempted enough, but I think possibly the imperviousness of herbs to what other people think makes it a little easier for them to resist temptation.
I would agree that the majority of alpha herbs come within your category though.
Re disloyalty, the disloyalty is not really the infidelity, it is the conscious/unconscious dissonance between principle and practice, I think people deserve honesty, often (but not always) alpha players are more honest with women about their real nature than alpha herbs.
LikeLike
Phoenixism: “Spook, I certainly appreciate your point.
I too am a ghost (which is a concept that needs exploration) but at my age I feel it’s a well-earned privilege (in a ’round the block’ kind of way) whereas at 23 it seems you’ve thrown in the towel before you’ve even given yourself a chance to indulge in the many Earthly delights.”
That’s true enough, but I was never one to savor earthly delights, anyhow. From puberty onward, what I really wanted was to meet a sweet girl and raise a family. That simply never happened.
Not so young now, I’m well-aware of the pitfalls of the modern marriage, and even more aware that the ‘sweet girls’ I possibly could have dated in my teenage years are by this point well-versed in the finer points of carnal knowledge.
So given that I never had any real interest in ‘playing the field,’ and have an ever-dwindling interest in the institution of marriage and the no-longer-so-sweet-and-innocent (if they ever were) girls of my age group, there’s really no other (sane) option for me other than to become a ‘ghost.’ It’s a status half-chosen and half-forced, but I can accept it amicably and with a minimum of teeth-gnashing.
LikeLike
“alpha herb” is oxymoronic. You girls sound like cigstache talking about her “alpha omega”.
LikeLike
Isn’t this apples and oranges? Whereas alpha and beta are (at best, dubious) criteria with some semblance of pseudo-scientific backbone when describing humans, “herb” is an informal and vague description of a general male phenotype which can co-exist across the range of alpha and beta markers.
Calling a man an herb is like calling a man a “warrior.”
I’d venture to guess that most warriors would be alpha, but strangely enough I’m sure you would find a few betas or omegas even.
I embody many of the herb traits mentioned here. Alienation, removal and disinterest in Game and/or PUA. I love women but they have no sway over me. However, please, please, PLEASE, don’t lump me in with the schleppers pictured above. They are herbs and all that word connotes. I have no idea what the fuck I am but I’m not an herb.
LikeLike
P, participate in a couple of orgies and get back to me.
No, I’m serious. Make an actual attempt to get into the crowd that is having group sex with hot university students. Report back on what you had to become in order to be considered safe to smoke grass and get naked with by more than one woman at a time.
I understand that some things, people can tell you, but they seem insane on paper. You have to live it and see it with your own eyes to figure it out.
Try wearing some worn in khakis, those Israeli style serious sandals, and a dark colored t-shirt, and let your hair be a bit overgrown, and see what happens. If you smoke, learn to roll your own cigarettes. Wear some primitive looking necklace and make up a story about the festival where you got it and how drunk/stoned you got.
Smell like sandalwood, a touch of tea tree oil, and oud. Learn to give a good massage. If any girl asks you, that’s what you do for a living.
Go to Rocky Horror Picture Show, and hang around until you get pulled into an afterparty.
Try it, and see what happens.
LikeLike
The dark colored t-shirt is imperative.
LikeLike
Phoenixism–
My “herb” wore suits and was relatively clean shaven (he often sported five o-clock scruff…yum) and looked nothing at all like an herb as far as what this post dictates. But I think he was one, or he was an alpha that could have laid many a girl but didn’t because he was too occupied with nailing corrupt bankers/investors/government workers in Africa. He focused on many other things in life outside of pussy so there are many nuances that can trip people up in pegging herbs. I just call them policy guys around here in DC. There’s a lot of them and most are from other countries. It’s a particular breed here given the environment. Maybe they are more obvious in their appearance in other places, but one has to look twice here to figure them out.
LikeLike
anouk, maybe it’s the nomenclature. “Herb” is such a shitty-sounding lame thing to be called. I’d rather be called Dry Mustard.
LikeLike
Nicole,
You presume a great deal. You’re also conflating social class markers with status markers with pack-hierarchy markers. Not that they don’t overlap, but they’re causing you to mix up categories.
“Herb” isn’t just any slacker, hipster, or aspiring-to-the-bourgeoisie-SWPL type.
LikeLike
Phoenixsm-
hahaha…dry mustard. God that was funny…and you even capitalized it! hahahaha…by all means, let there be a post about Dry Mustards. I like mine with a little….”kick”. 😉
LikeLike
P, I know what a herb is, despite the overlap.
…and I understand what you’re saying, but I’m telling you, honest to God, that it does work.
Like any other clique or style group, it has its own hierarchy. The top dogs in it basically make the women around them feel okay to do whatever.
The only problem is that to get there, they had to be willing to go places that guys in other cliques won’t usually go. Some of those places are RHPS, wild festivals, raves, herby hoobily boobily house parties, protests, etc.
LikeLike
@Polymath
For a man who is not an alpha or an omega, the fuckability equivalents of these ratings are
10 Would destroy your life for it 9 Worth extreme effort 8 Worth significant effort 7 Definitely if opportunity arises 6 Wouldn’t mind 5 OK if drunk or if she has a good personality
4 OK as humanitarian act if she is a lovely person 3 Always reflects badly on you 2 only at gunpoint 1 not even at gunpoint
Polymath, you rock.
LikeLike
[…] Beta or Herb? and Why Game will Continue to be […]
LikeLike
[…] Although inspired by the comments thread to Citizen Renegade: Beta or Herb (19/05/2010), and by her own youthful experiences, SDaedalus herself bears sole responsibility for all bad writing […]
LikeLike
As for style, y’all are cracking me up. Let me describe my style up ’til about 9 months ago–I called it “combat hawaiian”: 511 tac pants (basically cargo pants for operators), sandals (mandals) with black socks, topped with a loud hawaiian shirt. I looked godawful and it made me giggle inside every day that I did, and was somehow able to get away with wearing that getup at work for years.
The icing on the cake for you would’ve been to never comb your hair or shave once a week max.
LikeLike
Desert Cat:
Markku
” A herb is someone who genuinely does not care. ”
Roissy’s Herb = Vox’s Sigma
Do you think?
The lone wolf archetype? They do seem have something in common but I’m not sure.
LikeLike
The only personality here that fits Vox’s lone wolf / Sigma description is Willard Libby.
LikeLike
“Rois’s Herb = Vox’s Sigma”
No. In a bizarre twist this thread deified the common Herb. By Vox’s classification, a Herb ranges throughout the Delta (average guy) and Gamma (niceguy pedestaler) levels.
Herps occasionally occasionally among the Betas (non-elite guys who do well with women) but rarely among Vox’s O m e g a s (rejects/creeps) because herbhood assumes a functional level of success and interpersonal competence. Almost never among Vox’s Alphas (elite/powerful men) unless maybe someone with an asexual persona like Bill gates.
LikeLike
Here is Vox’s very good breakdown by the way. Some examples are his, some are mine.
Alpha (elite/powerful men)
Examples: Kissinger, Mr Big., star athletes and rock stars
Beta (non-elite men who do well with women)
Examples: most PUAs, our host persumably, lesser movie stars, other successful men, guys with good Game
Deltas (an average guy; middle of the bell curve)
Examples: regular guys; most of the commenters here with basic Game; guys you know
Gammas (niceguy pedestalers)
Examples: most non-creepy BOTM candidates here
O m e g a (losers/creeps)
Examples: Cho
Lamdas (gays; they have their own hierarchy)
Exapmles: any gay guy
Sigmas (lone wolves / rebels)
Examples: Clint Eastwood characters
LikeLike
The David Alexander personality is a wierd mix of some of these.
Right off, he’s not an o m e g a because he doesn’t repulse or scare women. O m e g a s don’t get LJBF’d because they creep women out, and girls find David asexually adorable.
He’s certainly not an Alpha or a Beta — he’s not that high up.
Per his insistence, he’s not a Lamda.
Hard to call him a Gamma. He’s too self-aware to be a mere pedestaler.
Not a Sigma, because Sigmas are formidable and have a similar effect on men and women as do Alphas.
LikeLike
The lone wolf archetype? They do seem have something in common but I’m not sure.
Yeah, on further thought, the Sigma might be a small subset of the Herb as described here–maybe something like the “alpha herb” described above. Herb is too broad of a category, per PA’s breakdown.
The icing on the cake for you would’ve been to never comb your hair or shave once a week max.
I did shave regularly, but how about frequently letting my balding pate get six to twelve weeks beyond haircut time, during which time the tufts over my ears would stick out every which way, and the lock of hair in the top center that remained unaffected by balding would often stand straight up like the Gerber baby?
I can’t tell you how many jaws dropped to the floor when I suddenly switched to clean-cut with classy-casual outfits. The cognitive dissonance blazing all around me for those first few days was utterly delightful. They thought for sure I’d gotten a job offer elsewhere and was about to ditch them.
LikeLike
I did shave regularly, but how about frequently letting my balding pate get six to twelve weeks beyond haircut time, during which time the tufts over my ears would stick out every which way, and the lock of hair in the top center that remained unaffected by balding would often stand straight up like the Gerber baby?
Heh heh, I googled up the Gerber baby logo.
I can’t tell you how many jaws dropped to the floor when I suddenly switched to clean-cut with classy-casual outfits. The cognitive dissonance blazing all around me for those first few days was utterly delightful. They thought for sure I’d gotten a job offer elsewhere and was about to ditch them.
Ha ha.
Uuno Turhapuro is the man to emulate if you want to go all the way. He is a comedy character who is your Combat Hawaiian (not precisely in style but in the territory), Skittles Man and Slick Narcissist (with a sympathetic streak) put together.
LikeLike
Actually it stood up more than the old Gerber logo.
Re: Uuno Turhapuro, geez Markku, I’d have to learn Finnish. Sounds like he was a popular guy though.
LikeLike
I know herbs are not alpha in your definition of alpha. But you have to admire how far these guys are into their frame.
They’re so deep in their frame that they can’t even see the frame anymore.
There isn’t that much difference between the herb and the natural. They’re equally clueless.
For the rest of us… the frame is calculated.
LikeLike
[…] Renegade has a fun piece of “Beta or Herb?“. I don’t agree with the Alpha obsession of this, and similar, blogs, but, nevertheless […]
LikeLike
[…] if you can present yourself to her as different than the indistinguishable mass of sad schlumpy beta herbs who are her typical choice in available men, then you are guaranteed the lay. Just don’t […]
LikeLike
I’ve not read all the comments, so this may already be covered, but your Herbs are what boys were raised to be in the 40’s, 50’s, and even 60’s and 70’s. Clean cut, Ward Cleaver types. No game, pretty clueless about the singles scene because they’re after a virginal woman of moral character to be June Cleaver, wife and mother of their children.
Some woman were raised this way as well, and they are looking for a Ward, or maybe they’re your alpha-esque type, but still want a Ward Cleaver to a Mystery so they can settle down, seeing Game practitioners as men interested in only sex. Not many American women are like this any longer. It’s no secret that most Asian and third world countries are more traditional, and the women from them are more likely to be above the base animal instincts Game plays to, i.e. a June looking for a Ward.
Herbs (Wards?) confuse you because they are the remnant of what used to be, not the new world of chaos and animal libido in which you use Game to achieve your goals. They are throwbacks to the older time, and attract throwback women, or foreign ones not yet “enlightened.”
LikeLike
I just can’t stop reading. Cracking up all the time.
“described as looking like they are carrying a load in their pants. They will annoy you just by being there.”
I was laughing for a full minute here. So true.
LikeLike
“…betas feel contempt for the modern woman, because they can’t figure out how to get laid.”
So true. I’m convinced that the first sign of a beta is bitterness toward women. Constantly saying stuff like, “Women are [whatever],” as if all women are exactly the same.
Alphas have no bitterness toward women or toward society in general. If you’re getting laid all the time by lots of beautiful women, everything seems right with the world and there’s no room for bitterness or whining.
LikeLike
Herbs are men who value comfort over truth..
I know a few borderline herbs who are ‘nice guys’ to the point where they will police other people for being too this or too that, in danger of breaking social status quos I guess.
Girlfriend is usually just an insecure girl who feels comfortable around someone nondescript, who won’t push anything.
LikeLike