An Australian supermodel, Miranda Kerr, has put together a list of tips men should follow to keep their women happy and their relationships strong. (Article courtesy of reader J.N.)
Kerr revealed her top 10 romance tips to readers of AskMen.com, who voted her most desirable Australian woman in the world. They are:
1. Buy the right size
2. Listen to her
3. Connect with her
4. Know what you want
5. Don’t be afraid to show her love
6. Tell her she is beautiful and romance her
7. Get a baby sitter
8. Be healthy
9. Pamper her
10. Treat her like a goddess
Fascinating! In the interest of generous reciprocation, I offer my list of Chateau-approved tips for women to help keep the romance alive in their relationships.
1. Spend his money to buy yourself clothes in the right size. Men like it when they are made to feel like dutiful ATMs.
2. Talk to him. Constantly.
3. Connect with him emotionally. Sex should be an afterthought to connection.
4. Know what you want from him.
5. Don’t be afraid to withdraw love. Men like to chase.
6. Tell him he is your best friend. Punctuate with warm hug and three pats on the back.
7. Get a baby sitter so that he may spend lots of money on you at fancy restaurants and the theater so that you return home too tired for sex.
8. Be healthy. Duh. This needed its own tip?
9. Ignore him.
10. Treat him like a therapist… who also happens to be penis-less.
~~~
Naturally, Chateau decorum insists on the utmost adherence to sarcasm when the moment calls for it. This was on of those moments. The lovely Miranda Kerr’s list may as well have been titled “Top 10 Romance Tips for Men Who are Already Alpha Enough to Afford Handicapping Their Attractiveness”, or perhaps “Bottom 10 Romance Tips for Beta Males Who Yearn for the Closure of Being Dumped”.
Similarly, my list would work great for 9s and 10s who are dating men so grateful to be with them that the men will put up with all sorts of shit. For the rest of womankind, my romance tips would have any man with a shred of dignity and a molecule of testosterone left in his sack running for the hills.
Kerr’s list — and just about all female relationship advice — neatly demonstrates one of the Chateau’s maxims:
CR Maxim #57: Never trust a woman’s advice on how to please women. Her advice is designed for alpha men she already finds attractive and from whom she seeks signals of attainability and commitment.
Corollary to Maxim #57: A woman’s sex and relationship advice isn’t meant to help men; it’s meant to distract men from what really works to turn women on.
Let’s be fair to her.
She’s talking about “romance”, i.e., special treats that are doled out on OCCASION. It’s like having a bitch: you own it by being its master and being dominant, but there is nothing wrong with petting it occasionally or giving it a biscuit.
She never said it was a list of rules to enable men to give random women ‘gina tingles.
Also, remember she said this first:
‘The Aussie supermodel says guys should at all times be themselves…’
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Top 2 Tips To Get AskMen.com to Ask You For Relationship Advice
1. Know next-to-nothing about how female attraction works.
2. Be fucking hot.
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You ought to make a list of all these maxims somewhere. It’s hard to keep track of them.
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Hypothesis: girls who stay quiet during sex are thrice as likely to cheat as those who moan loudly and uncontrollably.
My gut and anecdotal evidence combined say this is true. Anyone care to back this up (or refute it) with further evidence (anecdotal, scientific, or otherwise)?
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Game is pretty much doing what is the OPPOSITE as per the advice given by women and relationship “experts.” The list provided by this model is excellent advice if you want to enter the lets-just-be-friends zone.
My advice to getting into the panties of a woman:
1. Don’t buy her shit. You are not her fucking ATM.
2. Don’t listen to her bullshit. You are not her BFF.
3. Connect with her on YOUR terms, not hers
4. Be bold and take what you want.
5. Don’t fall in love with her. She is just one girl out of many.
6. Never tell her she is beautiful. Tell her that she is silly.
7. Let her get the babysitter. Seduce the babysitter if she is of legal age.
8. Smoke, drink and engage in unhealthy acts.
9. Ignore her
10. Treat her like a bratty little girl.
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Roissy, you’re the man.
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I love Chateau! You speak to the women who come here that HATE and DESPISE these moronic mags written via fags and ditzes in their 20’s…you know those struggling to write articles.
Now, Ms. Kerr is a well meaning female but she is out ta lunch baby. I so sick and tired of well meaning gamma/beta men emoting. It makes me sick. I honeslty think they are either gay, bi or drugged on femizing hormones.
The advice should be:
1. quit buy tokens and junk.
2. be who you are.
3. everything else is petty sh-t for these subpar readers called regular humans.
4. fuck often.
5. see, simple.
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we better see some blogging on the “lebron james’ mom getting her vagina pounded by his teammate meanwhile everyone he knew hid it from him” controversy
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[…] May 24, 2010 @ 4:41 pm } · { "boycott love } http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/relationship-advice-from-a-supermodel/#comment-174274 I do not post about Roissy too often. I avoid relationshipppy types things like this. But […]
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Miranda Kerr is a fucking bitch. Her list should simply read:
1. Be a movie star.
2. At least be a millionaire, preferably a billionaire.
Remember, this dumb bitch dated that piece of shit loser Brandon Davis simply because of his grandfather’s money.
Face it, no amount of game will allow a guy to get a Victoria’s Secret model/SI model. These bitches are the epitome of status hungry whores who will only date men who are at least millionaires. That weird ass looking Russel Simmons was banging Julie Henderson, the SI Swimsuit model who was 40 years younger than him recently.
Forget about these bitches. Miranda Kerr is already closer to 30 than 20. Her best days are behind her. She is in for a rude awakening very soon when her sexual desirability is ZERO.
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Yeah, specifically its advice to an alpha male on how to be/show himself as more of a romantic really in love with her, who’s sufficiently comfortable to live with, rather than being too much of an asshole.
Even alphas though to remain alpha in her eyes should only do many of the things on her list sometimes, and avoid some of them altogether e.g. “treat her like a goddess”. Woe be it to a man who tells even a LTR girl that she’s his goddess – rapid betaization, which only a roaring alpha can somewhat withstand and remain alpha enough in her eyes, provided it’s accompanied by lots of “asshole” and naturally leading her behavior.
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Here’s a good illustration of how women do NOT think even though we’d like to believe they do.
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Miranda Kerr can say whatever she wants.
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“Corollary to Maxim #57: A woman’s sex and relationship advice isn’t meant to help men; it’s meant to distract men from what really works to turn women on.”
Gotta disagree.
I don’t think they’re being that intentionally sly; it’s just that men that they’re not attractive to are invisible. That’s why Cosmo has articles on “How to Meet a Man”. You wouldn’t think that would be difficult seeing as how men are trying to meet women every time a woman steps out in public. The real title should be “How to Meet a Man You Find Hot”.
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A deer does not teach the hunter how better to kill it.
I’ve long held the belief that all women’s advice regarding how best to approach them, relate to them, attract them, maintain them, romantically or otherwise is one globalized vetting filter meant to separate the alphas from the betas. It’s like a subconscious, innate meta-shit test that women – mothers, sisters, nieces, wives, girl-friends and lovers – universally deliver to men in order to see which amongst them will not be deterred by it, push past it with self-confidence and place the expectations on her despite an entire world of women “advising” him to do the opposite. The purpose of the test is to determine who’s frame she will ultimately live in.
As I said, I’m not convinced this is a conscious process for most (not all) women. It seems like logic to communicate wants and desires to a man, but for all this it’s just negotiating terms for intimacy. Real passionate, chemically fueled desire cannot be negotiated, but women would have betas believe it could be.
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Roissy, where in the world were you when I was 21? I had to figure this out the hard way. 21-year-old guys reading your blog don’t know how easy they have it.
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The babysitter advise indicates she is referencing a husband. This is FABULOUS advice. Accessing a babysitter is the seemingly endless nerve-wracking toil for a mom. A husband who can produce the name and number of a reliable babysitter earns cudos, high 5s, and her tears of ectasy.
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It’s a bit of both. Women sincerely don’t know what turns them on sexually. They do know that they like to be treated as the powerful one in the relationship. So ask them what they want, and they’ll talk about all these indications that the man has handed over power.
She does want the power.
What a shit test is, is not a test. It’s not something the woman can possibly understand that she is doing. It’s a test of if the man can avoid handing over power, while still remaining intimate. Not handing over power while being asexual is not a gina tingle.
Only the rare man with much sexual experience knows that he doesn’t have to hand over power. Women truly want the power, but also when they don’t get it, they deep down know that the man is the guy who is getting all the pussy. This makes her want his dick deep inside her. Because his dick is the dick of the rake, the guy who impregnates more women than most men. His kids will be the kind who more easily get’s into many vaginas.
It’s not about motivation at all. It’s entirely unconscious. Women only know they want a man’s power. He seems even more powerful when he doesn’t give it. So they want this extra power.
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Someone on this blog summed it up nicely earlier: Girls picture themselves as teh dweeby beta pursuer in the romcoms. How they feel pursuing an alpha, not dweebs. Analyzing Miranda’s thoughts through that prism, we get to R’s maxim.
Although, you have to wonder. This kind of syrupy feel-good advice may be directed to guy and gals in relationships where there is already an equitable distribution of hand, and not for helping beta white-knighters land someone several levels of hotness above their pulling weight. And that that girls, when they give said advice, just assume that everyone already knows that that is an underlying, unsaid given. Men, being idiots, trying to pull dimes while living in parent’s basement, don’t have enough smarts to figure that out, and they get frustrated.
Miranda may be giving this advice to the movie star billionaire she finds herself actually falling for. You, on the other hand, should use her advice for for your slampig.
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Polymath–
Actually I think girls especially as they get past their mid 20s do tend to end up with a conclusion as to who to marry somewhat expressed by that graph. Though of course they get to that very differently than those equations. And they’ll also probably think the period of Chad beating out Walter will last somewhat longer than that graph implies.
Note with a good sense of humor (read is funny) and strong earnings ability Walter is probably a higher beta to Chad’s alpha.
That graph also exaggerates the period of long term happiness that Walter will given them (unless he alpha’s up by learning game), given current female “keep her in love” as all his responsibility expectations.
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A deer does not teach the hunter how better to kill it.
Hahaha I love that.
1. Men want sex, and are less attracted to a girl who gives it up TOO easily.
2. Women (generally) want commitment, and are less attracted to a guy who gives it up too easily.
It’s gone both ways. Guys will say they want a girl to put out immediately, so she’ll do it only to find that it’s screwing her over in the long run.
Women told us what they wanted, and many of us complied, only to have them lose respect/attraction for us.
Point? Appealing to the other sex’s stated preferences = folly. People will take what you give and abuse the shit out of you until they’re bored with what you have to offer.
Most people have accepted #1 as fact (although many women are trying to change it). Women have been afraid to accept #2 because it’ll imply they’re somehow unethical at their core, which isn’t true. Just like #1, it’s amoral and just the fact of their nature.
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xsplat–
Well they do in the current feminist environment. It’s what they’re taught they should want, in effect, and when men are taught to want to give them to a large extent.
In olden days and many other cultures there were at least mixed messages on this. E.g., yeah it’s best when your man is a strong overall leader leader, but she should also have the leading role in at least purely domestic decisions.
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Face it, no amount of game will allow a guy to get a Victoria’s Secret model/SI model.
Couple points:
1. Consistently dating 9s and 10s requires more than just game, it requires access to large pools of very hot women. You need money or fame for that. Tom Brady gets invited to the Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show afterparty and I do not.
2. Make no mistake, game is necessary to date women who are both famous and beautiful, but it is not sufficient. You need something extra: money, looks, fame. It need not be towering fame or wealth though. Morgane Dubled, one of my favourites, is engaged to a conceptual artist of modest renown.
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CR Maxim #57: Never trust a woman’s advice on how to please women. Her advice is designed for alpha men she already finds attractive and from whom she seeks signals of attainability and commitment.
lzozlzllzz zlzlzlzozlzl awomanz advice is designed for all teh betamen who she will tax and control with bernanke’s help as bernanke gets a big cut while she receives butthex and sperm in teh back room from assholes lzozllzlzlzl
Corollary to Maxim #57: A woman’s sex and relationship advice isn’t meant to help men; it’s meant to distract men from what really works to turn women on.
lzozlzlozl zlozzlzloozlzozo a womenz sex and relationsjhip advice is desigend to set betas on a wild goose chase of buying her shit while i’m lzolzlz zzizizinzzzlzozozlzbnzg her from nbhind like a dog. then on the way out i smell the flowers the bteas bought her, eat some of teh chocaolates, and swipe the copy of homer’s odyssy some betas gave her, as i know she’ll never reead it and i don’t yet have that partifiular hardbound loeb edityioon lzozlzlz os thanx!! thanx! zlzozlzlzlzl
thankx to all the betas beleieving everything goldman sax/bernanke/womenz say lzozlzlzl
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Kerr revealed her top 10 romance tips to readers of AskMen.com, who voted her most desirable Australian woman in the world. They are:
1. Buy the right size of condom which is magnum xl
2. Listen to her go omg glub glub glun omg slurp lozlzlz slurp omg
3. Connect with her with your cock in her vaginal region
4. Know what your cock wants
5. Don’t be afraid to show her anus love
6. Tell her her ass is beautiful and romance her tramp stamp
7. Get a baby sitter — omg i played that game once as this womenzsaid pretend you are my baby sitter and i said WTF??? that’s kinda sick and she said now tuck me in and she put my hand omn her twat and siad she was a very bad girl lzozlzlzlzlzl ok i guess but can’t we just go watch a movie and eat popcorns and then maybe gizializ?
8. Be healthy — yah please scrape all teh crabs off or sand them off with sandpaper lzozlzllz before i goes down there 2 get my face shalleacked
9. Pamper her with your hand on her ass where the pampers would be as she screams, “harder! hjarder! lzozlzl!.
10. Treat her like a goddess — a goddes sof cock –the one and only cock goddess daughter of zeus who sprung froth form his anus while athena spriung forth form his head zlzolzlzlzlz
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Rollo Tomassi–
It does also serve as a shit test to see how fully he complies. For flings which sluts seek or are happy with, his being edgie alpha is easily the most important thing.
For girls looking for marriage partners on the get quick, or even LTR relationships only before that, she’ll want a good enough combination of some following the advice, and being edgie alpha as well (or as much as she can swing for marriage or committed LTR’s), probably more in a playful teasing and joking with bite style than other alpha more hard asshole ones. In the case of most girls looking for LTRs and only that, that is.
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I think 3 of hers are valid, with caveats: listen to her (just don’t act like you’re really listening), know what you want (sex from her), and be healthy (look your best so it’s easier to attract others. Everything else I’d do the exact opposite.
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Thursday, you have highlighted a few women on this blog and yours, and few seem to have any hips. Are you into any chicks that have moderately wide hips?
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anony1,
Unfortunately for Walter, the picture at the bottom indicates he will follow bad relationship advice, so you are probably right about her overestimating her long-term satisfaction with him.
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“1. Men want sex, and are less attracted to a girl who gives it up TOO easily.
2. Women (generally) want commitment, and are less attracted to a guy who gives it up too easily.”
I like that and it makes for a nice quote, but honestly, I think that’s more true for women than for men. I’m not less attracted to a girl who gives it up too easily…… well, I guess it depends on what’s too easily.
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@ Poly
Why would I marry Chad? He has bad credit? Also he didn’t propose? Lol
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No, I don’t think so, Anony.
Women constantly try to domesticate their men, and they usually succeed. It’s the rare exception to the rule that this does not happen. Even and especially in more traditional marriages.
Matriarchy has ruled most men forever.
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Roissy almost always emphases or only talks about the first part of that combination because: 1) he’s been primarily focused on getting lots of flings with semi good girls and sluts both, with yeah a look out for a LTR if she’s good enough; and 2) he knows that how to ramp up the alpha edgieness is by far the side that most betas looking to upgrade their game or get it from the starting line need teaching the right things and unlearning our feminist/chivalrous culturally transmitted wrong things, and that progress for such guys is by far most likely to come by simplifying.
Consider all the betas that appeared in the comments to his recent herb vs. beta post, looking to get told they’re doing lots of things right in their herbish behavior. Roissy’s post was accurate, but it also lead to a lot of commenter kidding themselves and e.g. trying to translate higher beta level of success with women in LTR’s only (or what she’s sure will be an LTR from his side) into alphaish cred. Girls jumped on that band wagon as well, e.g. sdaedalus and a number of others.
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Me neither. First date sex is the norm. Girls who wait for three dates are only doing it to make you take em seriously anyway. Not like that’s any big diff.
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The maxim is dead-on correct, although the corollary is incorrect and slightly paranoid.
What this demonstrates is that women have “false consciousness” when it comes to what turns them on, not that they have some conspiracy going to dupe beta males. Same with the shit tests: they aren’t conscious ploys, but unconscious behaviors (and interpretations of past behavior) that women use to evaluate a man’s status.
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anony,
The babysitter advice is dangerous. The mom had much better secure the babysitter’s services, pay her, and drive her home herself, encouraging any sort of connection between hubby and krissi94@facespace.com may backfire in a big way.
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@ willy wonka,
It depends on how she gives it up. If she gives up with confidence and sensuality, then its all good as far as I’m concerned. If its awkward and nervous, it starts to smell like desperation, and that is very unattractive. I had a girl I was very interested in once who gave it up on the first date in the latter manner, and it immediately made me see her as extremely insecure, needy and ultimately unattractive.
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@Sidewinder
True, I can see that. It’s all about how she gives it up.
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I had no idea how famous roissy was…he’s like all over the blogosphere…
http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2010/05/quote-of-the-week/
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Roissy,
That Miranda Kerr was on her funny mode or what? My advice for men about women:
1. Treat her like garbage.
2. Treat her like garbage.
3. Treat her like garbage.
She would love you.
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@Sidewinder
Thanks for clearing that up…that’s what I was trying to say. It all comes down to status, and any person that gambles away their greatest asset without getting what they want in return is making themselves out to be weak.
For men, it definitely applies more for LTRs than for the casual stuff, but as a rule it’s still there. No matter how hot a girl is, she’s going to lose perceived market value if she’s been with hundreds and hundreds of guys and if she’s shown poor taste in the process. Kinda like the 6 that is more promiscuous than her more attractive peers.
What it really speaks to is how hypergamous people are in general, although women do it more because they’re in more of a position to do so. Also shows how selfish people are.
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Related to the topic of what really turns women on, check out this 22 year-old girl’s (all too common) story, posted in another forum. You can read it in her own words below, but here’s the executive summary:
Betaboy dates attractive girl in high school. At 19, she meets an ex-con. Gina tingles ensue. She breaks up with betaboy so she can fuck ex-con. She does so rawdog (sounds like betaboy never got bareback privileges). She gets herpes and gets preggers (aborts baby). Ex-con walks away. Betaboy takes her back.
No doubt she will leave and/or cheat on betaboy again. If the poor sapling has any luck, she’ll do so before she gives him herpes.
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omg!!! i ma getting famousSSSS!!! i am being translated so that normal everyday peoples can grasp my brillaince and peotry wihci is sometimes lost in translationation zlozlzlzlz
checks it out!! like tucker max i hope 2 get a 12,000,000 movie deal and ride aroudn on a bus and have charlotte allen hype me and lies about my height succss as i lovse over $10,000,000 en reoute 2 beocming the neocon’s definition of success lzozlzlzlzlz
her’es the translation zlzozlzlz
http://eumaios.wordpress.com/2010/05/02/lzozl/
Great Books for Men wrote, in a comment on a Roissy post, something wonderful, the likes of which I have never before read. As a literary experiment, I have edited his statement for spelling, grammar, capitalization, and punctuation, and replaced certain TXTisms with less colloquial alternatives. Ejaculations of the “lz[ozl]+” form I take as exclamation points. I have striven to preserve the sense of the text, making minor redactions where necessary to clarity and consistency. I think the result speaks for itself.
My God, you fuckity fucktards, it’s Saturday, so take the day off from being stupid for a change. The beauty of religion is that it acknowledges that there are entities, ideals, laws, and cool things greater than us that are worth aspiring to!
The problem with neocon asshhatters like Ayn Rand is that she says, “Man is god.” Thus her literature sucked, as she was unable to write tragedies such as the gospels (which end in tragedy/resurrection), Plato’s Apology for Socrates (ends in tragedy/resurrection) and Hamlet (ends in tragedy/resurrection)!
Now all you fanboy fuckity fucktards are incapable even of aspiring to the supreme glory of Athens and Jerusalem. Odysseus followed a hero’s odyssey for ideals greater than himself. Socrates followed an internal hero’s journey for ideals greater than himself. Moses followed a hero’s journey and returned with the Ten Commandments; he was a warrior who led his people on a physical journey to freedom–an ideal greater than himself. Jesus lived and died for ideals greater than himself!
And now Charlotte Allen and Ayn Rand come along and erase these heroes’ honor by glorifying stories of rape, atheism, and Tucker Max’s lies and secretive tapings of butthex without the girls’ consent. Here is why the Fiat Masters who hate Christianity fund feminist studies! And pay them to pen articles repeating the Fiat Masters’ corporate P.R lies that Tucker Max is six feet tall!
Now that brings us to the glory and sublimity of Hamlet, in whose soul Athens (honor by revenge and killing) and Jerusalem (honor by forgiveness) clashed. Hamlet becomes depressed. Like Socrates he is unable to find true virtue, like Jesus he forgives the murderous uncle, like Moses he passes judgment on the primal, eldest curse of jealousy and murder, and like Odysseus he too is called to liberate his own home from the false suitors!
All this glory is right at your fingertips, and we could talk about that, but everywhere I turn I find Jonah Goldberg war-mongering, and butthex! Butthex of the anal rape kind! Ayn rand is god! Secretive tapings of butthex without the girls’ consent! And Tucker Max is six feet tall!
The Fiat Masters must debauch both the culture and the currency! My God! Their women advocate that every girl ought to lust after undead vampire monsters who wear makeup, and this as the entire world becomes ruled by gina tingles, and gina tingles dictate that Obama is a good president, and gina tingles dictate that fiat cash is good, even as it places good men–-the common workers–-in massive debt!
Lord!
So take a day off from being stupid, and stop and think, and that fiat Kool-Ade don’t you drink, as the turds in it begin to stink. It is to laugh.
http://eumaios.wordpress.com/2010/05/02/lzozl/
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Does speed of sex really make that much of a difference for the average girl though?
I can see how it might maybe possibly devalue a 7+ who is a virgin or close, but what if a girl has been around the block already? I mean reasonable numbers, or has been married or has a kid already, not a different guy every month or somesuch.
If indeed most guys aren’t getting a whole lot of sex, especially not with hot chicks, do they not appreciate what they get unless they’re sick in the head?
I mean, I get that guys want to seem hard and all, but that’s not really what I see at the ground level. I see a lot of guys committing to and marrying women they slept with within the first couple of weeks of meeting. Some, it was the first night.
Looks to me like guys know whether or not they want to keep a girl within the first few minutes of meeting, and whatever happens after that is just backwards rationalization.
I’m saying that as someone for whom waiting *never* worked. I give that advice to others because girls reading advice from me are often virgins or close, and the rest think they know everything anyway. For the fairly experienced woman though, waiting seems to be a silly game that just prolongs whatever agony is coming.
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I see a lot of guys committing to and marrying women they slept with within the first couple of weeks of meeting. Some, it was the first night.
Most people are not that picky. Most end up in unhappy marriages or divorced.
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the central goal of the modern conservtaive is to redefine conservatism as that which includes:
1) butthex
2) secretive tapings of butthex without the girl’s conthent
3) anal rape of a man’s assetts by divorce
4) children cussing on south park
5) butthex
6) abortion
7) preemptive wars on foreign shores
8) massive debt
9) butthex
10) central control of the economy by the fiat master butthex class
11) socialization of risk and privatization of profits for teh fiat masters zlozzl
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@ Nicole,
Sex on the first date can be accomplished correctly by a confident woman, if the stars otherwise align. However a high status male is usually evaluating a girl for a potential LTR or wife as well as a hot girl to bang. If the girl gives it up recklessly, before she has attempted to qualify the man in any way, and then appears desperate or insecure in the process, it’s a definite turn off and relationship red flag.
For me, I wouldn’t pass any moral judgment on a girl wanting to bang on the first get together. But I would be on heightened alert as to whether this girl was a stage IV cling-on, desperate for attention, or just a reckless person with poor impulse control. That’s not to say that the right girl couldn’t pass these tests however. It is not hard for me to imagine a confident, articulate and sincere girl who would feel a genuine connection and want to act on it. But I can imagine a lot of things.
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10 tips for women to keep a man:
1. Be the right size
2. Don’t make him tell you twice
3. Connect with him horizontally
4. Swallow
5. Don’t be a bitch
6. Tell him he is right
7. Get a baby sitter, that’s hot, legal, and into threesomes
8. Be healthy and hot
9. Make him a sandwich before he tells you to, and it better be how he likes it, dammit!
10. Treat him like a hungry sugar cane without ears because he wants a sandwich, wants his dick in you, and doesn’t want to hear shit from you
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“CR Maxim #57: Never trust a woman’s advice on how to please women. Her advice is designed for alpha men she already finds attractive and from whom she seeks signals of attainability and commitment.
Corollary to Maxim #57: A woman’s sex and relationship advice isn’t meant to help men; it’s meant to distract men from what really works to turn women on.”
Genius.
Although, I don’t think women give this “bad advice” on purpose, like many posters have already acknowledged.
They give their advice assuming the man they are talking about is “attractive” (alpha), and thus they hope to round off the edges of his masculine personality a bit with these horrible handicapping tips.
Nevertheless, it is never a good idea to listen to women about what “turns them on.”
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@ chainring,
Hilarious story. What is it about girls in that they often seek out high-risk situations. Its not always because they perceive the “bad boy” to be alpha. In fact, sometimes he’s omega by any objective criteria, but because its such a bad idea, they are more compelled to want to do it. I don’t get it.
Its almost like girls have a chip on the shoulder. They have to prove that they aren’t a good girl who’s afraid of risks, but they do so by taking completely idiotic and irrational risks. Whether its tattoos, bad boys, hard drugs…I’ve known girls to do some really stupid shit for no apparent reason other than it being a stupid decision.
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“Does speed of sex really make that much of a difference for the average girl though?”
No. It doesn’t. The girls I’ve been in relationships with are generally girls I’ve fucked pretty quickly.
It’s about how it goes down though too, but yeah like you said, guys know before they fuck a girl whether she’s pump and dump material or possible keep her around a bit material…. playing games and trying to hold out to make me wait for it, is just that, a game to me and is likely to lower your status and my eyes and make me like you less, meaning she’s more likely to get pumped and dumped at that point, because she’s already frustrated me by not putting out when I wanted it.
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@Anony1
Roissy’s post was accurate, but it also lead to a lot of commenter kidding themselves and e.g. trying to translate higher beta level of success with women in LTR’s only (or what she’s sure will be an LTR from his side) into alphaish cred. Girls jumped on that band wagon as well, e.g. sdaedalus and a number of otherGirls jumped on that band wagon as well, e.g. sdaedalus and a number of others.
This reference to my name this sounds ominous. I hope I didn’t mislead people. I agree that settling on the part of the woman is probably the explanation for a lot of herb relationships, but not always.
If we define “herb” as a guy who other guys consider uncool, there are guys out there who fit this definition, but, to the mystification of cooler guys, manage to pull girls. There really are.
Usually these guys have a combination of (a) particular talent (writing/debating/art come to mind) plus (b) lack of regard to what other people think. It’s the combination of the two that seems to work. They will never pull an enormous amount of girls, but they will often pull more than they strictly speaking should, given their general herbishness.
My cooler guy friends (not all of whom were betas) used to be outraged by these guys, they felt it was entirely unjustified that women found them attractive, they still get quite annoyed about it. I was intrigued by the inexplicably attractive herb idea, because I had been wondering how to fit guys like this into the Roissy worldview, given that alphas are supposed to be cool, and these guys are patently not.
Sorry if I didn’t express this clearly enough. My point was simply that there are outliers.
I agree that for most guys reading this site, it’s probably best to work on Game instead, they have a better chance of getting women to respond that way. If they are reading this site in the first place, after all, they probably do not have the necessary lack of regard for what people think [(b) above] to pull off the chick-pulling herb option above anyway. Besides, I’d hate to point an innocent young man in any direction leading to socks and sandals worn together.
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the central goal of the modern neocon conservtaive is to redefine conservatism as that which includes:
1) butthex
2) secretive tapings of butthex without the girl’s conthent
3) anal rape of a man’s assetts by divorce
4) children cussing on south park
5) butthex
6) abortion
7) preemptive wars on foreign shores
8) massive debt
9) butthex
10) central control of the economy by the fiat master butthex class
11) socialization of risk and privatization of profits for teh fiat masters zlozzl
12) feminiszation of men
13) feminist movement
14) funding women with fiat dollars to persecute men and transfer asets form tyhejnm lzozlllzlzl
15) desouling women via goldman sax/tucker max butthex secretive tapings of butthex seesions after which tucker max is lauded as a succesful buthexing hero in the pages of charlotte allen’s weekly standard
16) killing civiliands and throwing little countries against the wall to show that jonah goldber means business as he funds his fat face with dc pizza while soldiers bleed 2 death jumping on grenades
17) the breakup of the family
18) making good men who man up and take a vow in church pay 4 the past use of a now old stinky pussy zlozlzlzzl with biker cock going in and out in and out while the good man funds it with child support and alimony
19) getting little girls to sex themselves oup and follow their baser gina tingles on towards blood-siucking undead murderous vampires and werewolves lzozlzlzllzl en route to ending up with neither vampires nor werewolves but just cats that they name “edward cullen” lzozlzllzlz
20) massive debts as far as the eye can see
21) teh end of the countries borders so atht mexians can come in and do the fiat master class’s work while they print he fiat dollars and enslave all of entirety in debt lzozlzlzllzlzlz and encourage womenz to abort their unbron babies as the wall street fiat elite determined it is cheaper 2 import pregrown labor than it is to take womenz out of the butthexing asscocking workplace to raise their kids and teach them how to pay attention without the fita masters drugs like ritalin and adderoloalzozlzozozllzzozlollzozlzllzlzlzozzlozzlzl
isn’t it funny that when you walk on the beach they have all these signs about protected wetlands and protected wildlife and you can be arrested and incaerated if you pick a flower, but if you rip a fetus out of a owman’s womb that is legal and good and you will be rewarded lzozlzlzozzlzlozl
isn’t it funny that our bravest men are dying on foreign shores in foreign wars where there ar eno defined borders really, and yet they are not allowed to guar dthe border defined border sof their own country ? lzozlzlzlzoz zlzozoz zomg zlzozlzlzl
isn’t it funny that womenx by their own choicde chose to have over 50,000,000 aborted and ripped and vacuumed form tehir wombs innocent fetuses who never did naything wrong but where fvictims in teh necons preemptive wars lzozlzlzozolzozlzozlzzlo isn’t it funny how womenz murdered 50,000,000 innocent and men are accused of being violent when they fight for honor and intergiety zlzozllzz zlzomzzgzozz zlzloozlzllzlz
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Standard procedure (at least for high value men): pressure her for sex as soon as possible. If sex on first date, keep fucking her unceremoniously and without any notion of ever taking her on another date, doing anything nice for her, allowing her to meet your folks, etc. Keep looking for and banging other chicks all the while.
If no sex on first date, consider her for LTR material. If not looking for LTR, stop calling immediately. The reward to effort ratio is better with sluttier girls. Which brings us to:
That’s the point, Nicole. If I meet you and I’m into you and I’m looking for an LTR and you make me wait, I know that you’ve made other men wait too. That means you’ve made other high value men abandon their attempts at fucking and dumping you in one 24 hour period. That’s a good thing from a high value, LTR seeking man’s perspective. And if you gave it up on the first date and ended up with a relationship… well, it means that you fucked a low value guy. And a high value guy who is looking for an LTR doesn’t want a girl who fucked a low value guy, because that means the girl is low value. You are who you fuck.
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@ sidewinder
High risk = excitement = gina tingles. Plus, as we know, women are loathe to acknowledge any responsibility and delude themselves into thinking ‘it just happened’, and are aided and abetted by other women in this regard. Contrast that with a guy contemplating a high risk proposition – he knows that if things go wrong, people will call him an idiot, and worse, he will blame himself for being an idiot. While the girl can simply blame men.
Not a single comment in the thread that followed her post placed *any* of the responsibility on her. It was all about how this could happen to anyone and how she was unlucky. Not one person suggested that maybe, you dumb bitch, it was a bad idea to date an ex-con, much less fuck him bareback.
And get this – after she got back together with her betaboy bf, he would sometimes bring up the ex-con/herpes thing, and the comments were unanimous in telling her to not put up with that and leave him.
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I learned this the hard way, repeatedly, in my AFC days. Eventually I learned to watch what women do, and disregard what they say.
When I was a youthful beta idiot, and had actually managed to get a girl’s number, I bragged about it to some female “friends.” “You should call her tomorrow,” they insisted, meaning the day after the number close. The assured me that to wait would turn the girl off and make me seem like I didn’t care. I thought I knew better – I had at least seen Swingers – but these vixens seemed so earnest in their advice, how could they want me to lose or look bad?
Of course, calling her the next day turned her off, and repeated calls sabotaged whatever chance I had remaining. All because I listened to a few females.
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if we define “herb” as a guy who other guys consider uncool, there are guys out there who fit this definition, but, to the mystification of cooler guys, manage to pull girls. There really are.
Just to emphasise, in case I’m accused of leading by my hindbrain again, that this is a very small and exceptional sub-category within the general herb group. Most herbs, even those who are truly uncaring of what other people think, do not qualify because they do not have both (a) and (b) above to the necessary degree.
I agree it would be dangerous for a guy to assume that because he fits the definition of a herb, he has chick-pulling potential, he might need to add in some Game at the very least.
I’m not sure how my comments on the other thread could be seen as encouragement to betas to be themselves. I did emphasise at ll times that (b), complete disregard of what other people (including the woman in the case) thinks was vitally important, this is hardly a beta trait.
I agree women do not really like being worshipped, they like this in the abstract but the reality is a bit of a turn-off, and they prefer to be challenged, the problem with the typical beta behaviour is the pedestaling (which often reeks of insincerity btw) and the lack of challenge. Basically we’re easily bored, and like to be entertained.
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sdaedalus wrote:
Why would a guy subject himself to a lifetime of this, with the state poised to rape him should he want out of this torture?
This is why marriage worked well when men could walk away with fewer repercussions and when women were raised with a value system that promoted motherhood and family responsibility and suppressed their hypergamous and long-term destructive urges.
A liberated woman is an unleashed monster.
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@Chainring
Ah Jesus. I try to be honest, and I manage to put you off all women. Look, men like cute girls. Women like men who keep them on their toes. It’s life.
Personally, it would be much less effort for me to cultivate a sweet nature, than a nice bod. But we all know which men prefer. Similarly, women like a bit of a challenge. It’s not so difficult, you might even enjoy it.
Also, unlike a nice bod, the ability to keep women on their toes doesn’t deteriorate with age. You guys definitely have the better end of the deal.
PS I should be flattered, any of you actually believe what I say about female attraction, i suppose.
PPS Believe it or not, not all women cheat. Some of us actually had the disadvantage of being raised strictly.
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How to get a woman like Miranda Kerr…
1) Already have a hot girlfriend or wife and make sure she knows it
2) Go full caveman on her
3) Only do booty calls
4) Make sure she knows it could “never happen between us” (i.e. marriage, LTR)
5) Bang the living shit out of her
6) Make sure she knows you’re constantly gaming other women; be perfectly honest and blunt about this.
Umm, did I leave any others out?
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I suppose I should be offended by the bit about a liberated women being an unleashed monster, but I suppose this depends on how you define “liberated woman”.
Hopefully I do not come within this category as it would be very energy consuming being an unleashed monster, I’m really not sure I could live up to this term.
However the use of the term “unleashed monster” does make me smile because this is exactly the expression that Sister Ignatius, in her Religious Sex-Ed class, used to use about the boys from the next-door school.
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sdaedalus,
“Basically we’re easily bored, and like to be entertained.”
Please, speak for yourself.
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Tips for women that they should follow to keep a healthy, happy relationship.
1.) Fuck him right. As it progresses, make love to him right but come back to fucking him right every other time to keep it alive.
2.) Never belch, pass gas or go number 2 anywhere near him. Always cross your legs, sip your drinks, take small bites of food and chew delicately. Never drink Miller lite.
3.) Stay hot for as long as you possibly can.
4.) Look up to him/admire him/respect him.
5.) Ask his advice but limit your verb-age in general. Keep the talks for your girlfriends.
6.) Never, nag your man on a Sunday or right after he gets home from work. If possible never nag your man, ever. Have cold beer opened and in his hand when he walks in the door instead.
7.) Be spontaneous and exploratory sexually with him. Seize the moment of lust. Ride the waves from tenderness to heat and back again.
8.) Feed him.
9.) Look ravishing as often as humanly possible/ look good on his arm.
10.) Love him. Need him. Obey him.
11.) Eye fuck him when he least expects it, or in really inappropriate places. I’m a fan of the ‘ol juxtapose. Be sexual when it is not expected.
12.) Flirt with him, no matter how long you’ve been together.
13.) Wear dresses and/or skirts and heels…a lot.
14.) Be playful and mischievous. Be animated.
15.) Be faithful and loyal.
Tips for guys:
1.) Fuck her right.
2.) Make love to her right.
3.) Kiss her deeply.
4.) Let her fall asleep on your non man-boobied chest.
5.) Reward her is she is good (ie: meals, gifts, romance)
6.) Punish her (if necessary) behind closed doors. (I stand by this because I believe that it bonds her closer to you due to keeping it between the two of you. Save the public playing mean when it is a minor issue between you two—ramp it up, have good sex after.)
7.) Guide her/advise her/show her….gently if possible.
8.) Be funny.
9.) Flex between being an asshole when needed and kind and forgiving when needed.
10.) Be suave.
11.) Try to be faithful and most definitely be loyal.
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Can you band that GreatBooks douche already?
He is trashing your forum, and you’re going to lose readers. Trust me on this one. One troll can do real damage to the integrity of posting. It feeds off itself. Ban him, if you value the comments section of your blog.
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You do have a point. And I will stop speaking on behalf of the entire womankind.
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@Anony
Please, speak for yourself
There’s a certain irony in being told to speak for oneself by someone called Anony, but I’ll let that pass.
My experience, as a woman, is that I get bored with pedestaling. Also, I like a man to be entertaining, this basically involves being able to amuse in a conversation without necessarily including some of the more drastic forms of entertainment suggested on this blog from time to time. Most other women I’ve spoken to are of the same view.
My opinion is indeed not based on empirically ascertained scientific fact, and it’s possible that there may be other women out there who are different. I would be interested to know.
It’s hard to speak on this subject without engaging in a certain level of over-generalisation, but it’s up to other commenters to correct this with specific examples.
If you’re a woman, and you’ve a different experience, do tell.
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@ sdaedalus
You haven’t turned me off women. I love women. Like the guys here, I recognize them for what they are. Complaining about their nature is, as others have said, like complaining about the rain.
BUT, marrying a woman whose animal nature is unrestrained by a society that has severed the patriarchal chains that kept the monster under control is akin to playing Russian roulette, with most of the chambers loaded.
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Women’s advice is worthless.
One test: ask a female “friend” what you can go to pick up her single friend.
If you are average, she’ll say something like “oh she’s sorta seeing someone” or “talk to her, and you’ll just know if it works or not”.
In the back of her mind, you disgust her since you are so weak and needy you ask spineless questions by way of a third party. Don’t be surprised if your friend stops returning your calls.
On the other hand, if you are high quality, in spite of your beta question, then she’ll respond “what do you see in her”, or some other indicator of interest.
If a woman gave advice it would be this: if you are not good enough for me, you are not good enough for my friends, and vice versa.
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And what’s so wrong about describing oneself (or womankind in general) as easily bored, and wanting to be entertained, anyway, for goodness sake.
I’m not suggesting Last Days of the Roman Empire entertainment here, complete with slave-boys and dancing girls just a little lively conversation that wouldn’t even cause Jane Austen to blush.
I’m not ashamed of admitting that I’m easily bored, and like to be entertained, this in itself isn’t a moral offence.
Curiosity & liveliness are not necessarily negative traits, like everything else they can work for good or bad, depending on one’s common sense and ability to accept oneself & regulate behaviour accordingly.
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Hey Anoukange,
In your “tips for girls” you forgot #16:
When all the above fails, write him threatening emails about destroying his reputation with his friends and family.
Then go completely batshit.
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‘Be yourself’?
98% of guys wouldn’t get laid at all by being themselves. That’s about how many guys aren’t rich oil barons or celebrities…did you know that David Cross is banging Amber Tamblyn? That’s the type of guy that can be himself and still score hot chicks, me and you? Not quite as much, hence game.
The way I see those rules is as follows:
1) Appease with money.
2) Women always complain that men never listen…instead of asking themselves if anything they have to say is interesting (its not).
3) Actually somewhat relevant.
4) Did a woman just get two in a row…? This list is starting to look halfway decent…
5) Wait…Beta pedestalization.
6) Supplicate.
7) Pawn off your kids on someone else.
8) 3/8 so far…
9) Supplicate.
10) Supplicate, one more time.
So she got 3/10…still a failure but expecting anything more from a supermodel would be setting yourself up for a letdown. More than any other woman, supermodels need to just be pretty and shut up.
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sdaedalus—
Certainly Roissy regards herbs as uncool and I imagine most PUAs do as well. Though in a sense there’s a certain herbishness to Mystery, though certainly be does care what girls think about him, or certainly that he can make them fall for him. Actually many artists and musicians have herbish qualities, though their at least minor fame or the prospect of it (she hopes and believes) different these types.
What all herbs have in common is that they have the opposite of swagger or aggressive masculine qualities. Herbs and thugs are diametrically different, but so too are most thugs and real betas, or players with strong asshole game and herbs. Herbs aren’t real nerds though some might call types of them that. Herbs do I think always have considerable social abilities with girls as well as men. They aren’t loners and they do like to socialize. Semi androgenous is a good term for them; that’s generally their style. They in some ways similar to gay guys to girls, though without the typical gay guy’s fashion sense. Difference is, in the end they do like women. Though often in an at least a fairly submissive posture to girls, once the relationship is underway for awhile anyway.
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@Chainring
Again, you guys are overreacting to a perfectly innocuous comment, you are worse than a gang of dowagers at a debutante dance.
Being easily bored and wanting to be entertained does not necessarily translate to an unrestrained animal nature. I accept that it does in some cases, I also accept that the amount of cases in which is does will depend on the laxity or otherwise of societal strictures. I do think though that any question of morality aside, I think some women are capable of using their common sense and asking, will this benefit me in the long run (it usually doesn’t)
At least that has been my experience. I appreciate it’s entirely possible that I just haven’t been the victim of sufficiently strong gaming, my upbringing probably also contributed. I am certainly no angel (I am very cranky) but I can genuinely say that I have never cheated on anybody I was with. I can’t speak for other women on this, it is possible that if I had been brought up in the hook-up culture I might be different.
I agree that the current hook-up system is a disaster, and ultimately just as damaging for women as for men. I’m not a major fan of marriage, but I think it is better for kids, and, let’s face it, the human race has to reproduce or die. So rather than treating women as definitively irredeemable, under all conditions, wouldn’t it be better to look for ways in which the current problems could be minimised.
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Women are interchangeable. Anony will work just fine as a name. I am a woman, 30ish, and the total # of times I can recall being bored probably doesn’t exceed 4-5 in my lifetime. Since our host claims all women lie about their numbers, double it and call it 8, although that seems quite high. No, I definitely haven’t been bored more than 5 times in my life. That doubling rule is bad. I think adding 50% of stated number is sufficient, which puts me around 6 times. Maybe I’m just easily entertained, so my boredom threshold is higher, I dunno.
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sdaedalus wrote:
No, it’s not immoral at all. It’s in your nature. Would you describe baboons as immoral? Of course not.
As humans, we are just highly intelligent baboons. For us to move beyond small, warring tribal societies, however, we need to impose a code of conduct, i.e., crimes for the more heinous offenses and morals to guard against the more subtle anti-common good elements of our nature.
Feminism has stripped away many of those morals as being ‘old-fashioned’ and ‘antiquated’, and it, along with technology (condoms, STD cures, condoms, abortion) and urbanization, has unleashed the baser elements of our nature. What the feminists don’t understand is that those morals are what allowed us to evolve beyond primitive societies, and without them, that is what we are devolving toward, provided a society that restrains the anti-common good elements of human nature doesn’t conquer us first.
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@Anony
I am a woman, 30ish
Me too
@and the total # of times I can recall being bored probably doesn’t exceed 4-5 in my lifetime
Lucky you. I distinctly remember being bored by the mobile in my cradle when I was six months old (incidentally it was of Snow White & the Seven Dwarves). After that, I was bored in pre-school, our equivalent of Junior High, High School, College and now I am occasionally bored in work. The periods of boredom are intermittent, but acute.
I agree that boredom and facility to be entertained are in inverse proportion to one another, clearly my entertainment capacity is sadly lacking, perhaps I am too serious. To my shame, I feel boredom more often in a single day, than you have felt it in a lifetime. I didn’t realise I was such an outlier in this regard. It may be a sign of a weak character on my part, I am getting worried about this.
But are you talking about being bored generally, or being bored by men? Either way, you are really very lucky, think of the large pool of men open to you that is sadly closed to me due to my low boredom/incapacity to self-entertain. Any tips for reforming myself in this regard?
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Hey Johnny–
the list was for RELATIONSHIPS. get it? Have you had much expereince in the? Care to offer any gems?
It’s simple cause and effect to what you reference above. Spastic tool spazes out on me several times and tries to shit on my friends and destroy my friendship….I give a dose back. Were you there? I didn’t see you…
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*them
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Chainring
What the feminists don’t understand is that those morals are what allowed us to evolve beyond primitive societies, and without them, that is what we are devolving toward, provided a society that restrains the anti-common good elements of human nature doesn’t conquer us first
Yes, I agree with this. Although I think that as well as moral strictures, general training in common sense & assessing the consequences of one’s actions, as well as the ability to restrain oneself from doing everything one wants to do, should be a key part of a child’s education. Moral strictures laid down without explanation of the reason for same are not enough on their own.
Modern society does not just lack morality, it also has a extreme sense of over-entitlement, the “because I’m worth it” feeling, which feeds on people’s inherent selfishness. This has an impact not just on people’s sexual behavior, but generally (you see it also in relation to the behavior leading up to the financial crisis)
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Sdaedalus, It’s Anony, here. You were right. I could use a name. I picked Name, pronounced “nah may.”
Anyway, maybe we’re just defining the term bored in much different ways. Dunno, life just seems too short to spend it in some state of self-imposed boredom.
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Hi Nah-may, I think to be strictly phonetically correct you could do with an accent grave on the e there, or maybe a double e would make it more feminine, or both. But hey, it’s none of my business, my monicker is basically unpronounceable to all but Joycean scholars anyway.
Yes, boredom can be self-imposed, but can also depend on one’s companions & activities, not all of us are going to find the same things and people interesting. Yes, I agree I should probably try harder to find interesting things & people, you do have a point there, laziness is definitely my vice.
But boredom can also be a positive thing, it can be a catalyst for progress. I appreciate progress is a loaded word, but without boredom, we probably wouldn’t have art, music or literature, people would be quite happily occupied otherwise.
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The list is bullshit, as Roissy rightly points out. But I’m skeptical of Roissy’s other advice here. What works to get into a girl’s pants isn’t necessarily what works to keep a girlfriend. If girls have a supply of compliant betas (or fags) for pushover boyfriends why wouldn’t they choose boyfriends like that, and get banged by men they find sexy on the side? And unfortunately there will always be a large enough supply of compliant fodder.
I’m skeptical of Roissy’s advice in general also because I’m bi. You wouldn’t know it if you met me though, and I’m even ready to concede that it’s a vice and/or weird. But think of it like a thought experiment. I mean I think I have an understanding of what women look for in a man because I like men too. And I can tell you that on the rare occasions when I fool around with a guy I make my decision 100% based on looks. There’s nothing a guy could say or do to make himself attractive to me if he’s physically ugly. I’d have to guess it’s the same with women and that this game stuff doesn’t really work? I do alright with girls and never really studied “game.” It’s good advice for not embarrassing yourself I guess if you do lame stuff to begin with.
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“I don’t think they’re being that intentionally sly; it’s just that men that they’re not attractive to are invisible. That’s why Cosmo has articles on “How to Meet a Man”. You wouldn’t think that would be difficult seeing as how men are trying to meet women every time a woman steps out in public. The real title should be “How to Meet a Man You Find Hot”.”
YES! Just like guys view fat girls as “not really girls,” women view beta males as “not really men.”
The difference is that average men will view most women as eligible. Average women will only view a small percentage (less than 20%) of men as eligible for their golden voovoo.
That’s what all the entitlement is about – every woman can’t get a top dog, so they demand money and deference from beta men instead.
I also don’t think the piece is intentionally dishonest; I just think women love to talk about how they WISH they were or how society tells them they should be, since to speak the truth about female sexuality would be too bold.
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sdaedalus:
>Curiosity & liveliness are not necessarily negative traits
I agree, the food’s curiosity is what gets me most of my meals (the others coming from food “disposing” of others). However, I have noticed this striking difference between the genders of your species: males are the ones that typically go out and look for me to satisfy their curiosity, females usually sit in the back and just watch, as if I were on stage for their entertainment.
I have to actively coerce the females into looking at what may lay inside the pit close enough to grab a meal, using various tricks. I assume that the female’s demanding passivity when it comes to curiosity and entertainment may seem rather exasperating to the males, who are capable of just going out and finding their own fun. As a predator, I have to say that the more skill-demanding prey tends to be more satisfying, though.
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mark22-
when I fool around with a guy I make my decision 100% based on looks. There’s nothing a guy could say or do to make himself attractive to me if he’s physically ugly. I’d have to guess it’s the same with women and that this game stuff doesn’t really work?
Just because you like men doesn’t mean you think like a woman. Gay men don’t think 100% as women do, they think as men who like other men.
“This game stuff doesn’t really work?”
Plenty of men (and women) here would disagree with you there.
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i’d like to request that everyone cuts back their stoopid lzozlzlz posts
it makes it harder for me to find and read and reread mine thanks in advance !!! lzozl
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Mark22
I think I have an understanding of what women look for in a man because I like men too. And I can tell you that on the rare occasions when I fool around with a guy I make my decision 100% based on looks. There’s nothing a guy could say or do to make himself attractive to me if he’s physically ugly. I’d have to guess it’s the same with women and that this game stuff doesn’t really work?
Although looks are a component in female attraction to men, they are not the only component. Although they may spark initial attraction, that attraction won’t last unless there is something else there. Also (speaking for myself here), guys’ looks have a tendency to grow on one, and yes, Game influences this, I think it is certainly a factor, possibly not the only factor (there are other things too) but it’s hard to imagine being attracted to a guy one didn’t initially think was good looking unless he showed some level of Game.
There are limits to this, if someone is really not one’s type, game may not be sufficient, I say may, because perhaps there is a level of game that makes looks in men completely redundant. However as far as I remember even Neil Strauss had to engage in some image remodelling. Also, dressing with a certain style can make a different to a man’s attractiveness in a way that is not necessarily the case in a woman.
One of the things that we women find most frustrating is that all the charm and wit in the world, indeed the best wardrobe in the world. is unlikely to make men more attracted to us, it will certainly make them our dearest friends, and will give us power over them in that regard, but will not necessarily give us increased power in the sexual sense unless they are already fairly strongly physically attracted to us. Even Cleopatra would not have been able to do anything with Caesar or Mark Anthony without the initial physical attraction.
We find this hard to accept because this is not the way attraction works for us, as stated above, it is not purely looks based and also a man’s clothes matter more to us than a woman’s clothes do to men (although a clever woman can use clothes up to a point to disguise her flaws).
We are confused in this regard because so many novels, films etc. talk about a man discovering the beauty of a woman’s soul and falling in love with her physical defects accordingly. However on closer investigation, most of these novels, screenplays are either written by women or deliberately & shamelessly targeted at the female market, aimed at telling women what they want to hear.
Unfortunately men are attracted to women on the basis of looks & this appears to be the case also when men are attracted to other men.
Life is very unfair but so be it. I do think straight guys have the easier end of the stick, even though they are always moaning and groaning about it.
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sdaedalus
“Personally, it would be much less effort for me to cultivate a sweet nature, than a nice bod.”
Sorry babe but this is bullshit. There’s pretty much nothing easier than having a nice bod if you’re a woman. Just don’t be fat. That’s it. That’s the sole rule. You’re not getting any hotter by doing anything else other than not being fat. For a man to have a nice body he needs to be trim and muscular (with various women’s tastes varying on how trim and how muscular).
Short version: a desirable woman’s body is one that simply looks like a not grossly distorted woman’s body. A desirable man’s body is one that is either genetically rare or the result of a huge amount of hard work and discipline over a period of years.
For a woman to not have a good body is a huge red flag that she has a horrible personality; she clearly indulges her whims even if they hurt her in the long run. It’s not that hard to put down the donuts!
“PS I should be flattered, any of you actually believe what I say about female attraction, i suppose.”
I don’t think anyone with any sense does.
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Sidewinder and Wonka, that’s what I was thinking. It’s not a “jump in bed with everybody” but a “don’t be childish”.
Manto, do you feel like you’re exceptional in this, or normal? What age range are you generally shopping in?
I’m just trying to figure out how smart it is for a woman who’s already considered middling to low value, based on either looks or history or both, to wait beyond her own instinctive comfort.
That marriages become unhappy is quite often the woman’s fault in the first place. So I’m wondering how happy she is with a guy who it’s easy for her to say “no” to.
If it doesn’t count against her to say “yes”, then maybe “yes” isn’t such a bad idea…cut through the b.s. maybe.
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I’m not being sarcastic, histrionic, or hyperbolic when I say that doing the exact opposite of what Miranda Kerr advises would be more effective.
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@the Sarlacc
“I agree, the food’s curiosity is what gets me most of my meals (the others coming from food “disposing” of others). However, I have noticed this striking difference between the genders of your species: males are the ones that typically go out and look for me to satisfy their curiosity, females usually sit in the back and just watch, as if I were on stage for their entertainment.”
Without making sweeping generalisations about women, I would have to say that this reflects both my own female nature, and my observation of the female & male natures in others. Men are very tactile, and tend to focus on detail (dismantling things such as car engines), they also tend to engage in risk taking activities when bored (war would be a good example). Women sit back and survey the overall picture from a distance.
I can see how the inability to self-entertain could be exasperating. You do appreciate, though, that we women find some aspects of male attraction equally exasperating.
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“Yes, boredom can be self-imposed, but can also depend on one’s companions & activities,”
I think boredom is almost always self imposed. The words, “I’m bored” almost always prompt me to think, have you scaled Mt. Everest, run cross country like that guy (what was his name?) in the movie Forrest Gump, developed fluency in 5 languages, etc.?
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Mark22-
You’re not bi dude, you’re gay. There’s no such thing as a “bi” man.
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@anoukage
Hahaha, I agree. I can’t believe I left that out.
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I could use some advice on starting points for LTR game. I had a disturbing discussion with the girlfriend recently about how she wants to live a “comfortable life” and expects it a man’s job to provide a lifestyle for his wife. Something about because that’s what her dad did (which he did by working a soul-crushing job he now regrets). Said she wants a husband to front for her while she pursues her unrenumerative “dreams.” She denied she was a princess but I found that hard to believe.
This was kicked off by a discussion about how her friends disparage me in absentia for not springing for the check enough, at which point I pointed out the immense disrespect of by discussing our financial affairs in public (with silly, naive twentysomethings no less) . They call me cheap but I’m never the one complaining about money.
Most of my time with her is enjoyable and shit test-free, which is why i started dating her, and we usually split or trade off paying for food and getaways. The problem is when she complains about the balance after the fact. I understand the principles of game, but I don’t know where to start with this situation.
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There’s pretty much nothing easier than having a nice bod if you’re a woman. Just don’t be fat. That’s it.
Although as a naturally lazy person, I would like nothing better to go back to an era when female muscle definition was confined to the paintings of Michelangelo, the reality is that being thin nowadays doesn’t necessarily cut it without also exercising and working out, have you never heard of the expression “skinny-fat”?
Also, a quick perusal of the various Manosphere sites show a degree of variation in taste as to appropriate levels of trimness and muscularity for women as well, I really don’t think men can claim a monopoly as victims of body pressure here at all, I am not saying that men are not also under such pressure, just that it is not confined to men, and also that lack of a good bod can be compensated for by Game in men but not in women.
For a woman to not have a good body is a huge red flag that she has a horrible personality; she clearly indulges her whims even if they hurt her in the long run. It’s not that hard to put down the donuts!
I completely agree. I think that it is no coincidence that women have got both fatter and sluttier over the last generation or so.
“PS I should be flattered, any of you actually believe what I say about female attraction, i suppose.”
I don’t think anyone with any sense does
Oh dear, and I was so hopeful. Silly me.
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Steve J-
Actually SD is right. Just because a girl is not fat doesn’t mean she has a good body. What you’ve described for a man’s body goes almost double for a woman’s body. We have to be toned, firm AND soft, all at once. A good female figure is well portioned and aesthetically pleasing to the eye. It is always a good thing to advise women to tweak and perfect what they can, just as it is for man to do so.
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“I think boredom is almost always self imposed.”
When I hear “I’m bored” I think of Roissy’s post “opportunity is everywhere” – there is SO MUCH going on in the world to tickle your brain; if you don’t want to take advantage of it that’s your problem.
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sdaedalus–
I think the best way of conceptualizing this is to think in terms of the guy have a threshold of minimum attractiveness in a girlfriend, as well as in a fling though that may way be lower. Except that is in drunken sorts of pump and dumps where she’s the best available at the time and he’s really horny – esp. if he can do her without it getting out among his circle. Even there there’s likely to be some threshold, just an even lower one.
Above the threshold for a fling her level of sexiness can make a big difference, as well as her having at least a tolerable personality. Above the threshold for a LTR her charm and wit and being smart enough for him can definitely start to make more of a difference. For many men re: LTR’s her social status does to, so long as it’s not significantly or unarguably above his in all dimensions in his eyes.
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“Consistently dating 9s and 10s requires more than just game, it requires access to large pools of very hot women. You need money or fame for that.”
That’s a hell of a good point. Especially in the early stages of learning Game, a man might get discouraged when the 9s and 10s still display no interest. He might overlook his increasing status among 7s and 8s.
Landing them requires the two of the big triad: Money; looks and fame. And Game, of course.
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“I don’t think anyone with any sense does”.
Hell, sdaedalus is probably the most entertaining of the lady posters (apart from the fair Pupu).
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@Steve Johnson
“PS I should be flattered, any of you actually believe what I say about female attraction, i suppose.”
I don’t think anyone with any sense does
I normally assume that when someone reprimands me they’re justified. However, I did go back and read what I wrote in the post which you responded to, which was as follows:-
“Men like cute girls. Women like men who keep them on their toes. It’s life. ”
This is a paraphrase of Roissy (I can give you the post references by date if you like). Are you saying you don’t agree with the Roissy worldview then so?
I think you might be taking Roissy’s recommendation not to believe anything a woman says about attraction too literally. If you were to follow this absolutely, this would allow us women to undermine anything he said simply by agreeing with it. Surely you wouldn’t want to give us that much power?
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Oh, you can get 9s and 10s without money, looks or fame. You just won’t get them consistently.
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From an “Australian” supermodel??? I cannot see any Australian guy following this unless he was an organizer of the Sydney Gay Pride Day Parade.
Elsewhere in Asia, women, especially in North Asia/Greater China would love their men to be cooing betas and beta orbiters.
It only makes for a very sexually frustrated pack of she wolves.
Every woman I’ve talked to here about what they’re looking for says the same thing: “Chinese guys are so weak…they need to be more manly”. But many that I’ve gone out with have used words like “disrespectful” and “always teasing me….” when I game them.
Then when I stop gaming them and move on they very often will turn pouty, passive aggressive and angry. A Chinese woman scorned….it takes tremendous strength and game not to succumb to giving flowers, apologizing and being a pet.
Standing at an ATM a few weeks ago, I saw a woman fly by with beta boyfriend in tow. She stopped, adopted alpha she bitch pose, hands on hips. On cue, beta boy lowered head, folded hands on nuts like errant schoolboy, threw shoulders forward and waited. She unleashed a torrent of abuse on him. He took it all. “Nice guy”…yah…
Women’s increased independence enabling them to work, buy themselves nice things and travel means they don’t “need” men as they once did allowing them to become more “picky”.
It’s completely emasculated men here prompting them to “chase”. Men here are very often angry betas, unable to understand “game”…they go to prostitutes.
Add to this the fact that there are more men than women in this part of the world because of the local preference for male babies and you have an increasingly frustrated female population competing with sex workers for dwindling supply of cock.
It’s a potent mix. Foreign guys don’t have it much easier. Chinese women may be more accommodating at first, but turn into passive aggressive dragon-ladies.
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Just a clarification, I stated above:-
I completely agree. I think that it is no coincidence that women have got both fatter and sluttier over the last generation or so.
I just want to make clear that I was not here talking about weight gain due to medical reasons (there are some conditions which cause this)
Obviously such weight gain would be completely unrelated to personality, self-control or lack thereof.
No offence meant.
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R,
Along those lines check out what the next generation of princesses is up to these days:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0524101sorority1.html
And these girls want husbands, lol.
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SDaedalus says, “You do appreciate, though, that we women find some aspects of male attraction equally exasperating.”
Attraction is there or it’s not. That bit is pretty simple.
What’s complicated, or maybe complicated by social engineering efforts to make it so, is what happens after the attraction and the sex.
The more I learn about it, the more convinced I am to trust nature or “chemistry”.
It’s a fascinating topic for discussion, but at the end of the day, my instincts have never truly failed me. Though my needs and preferences differ from most women, I don’t think I’m so different in the need to stay aligned with nature above society.
Being civil enough to get along with others is good, and social adeptness is good. Social dependence however, seems to be screwing women in massive numbers these days though…myself included, when I was trying too hard to be nice.
When I did what was natural for me to do though (not impulsive, but natural with the whole brain and senses) I didn’t go wrong.
So it’s not complicated. Just be a woman. Who likes it, cool. Who doesn’t, wish them luck finding their unicorn, and move on.
…and don’t look back.
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sdaedalus–
Modern society doesn’t lack all kinds of morality. It does have a leftist morality which I think is a kind of secular morality derived from and even extending Christian morality of one kind — equality not just of Christian human worth or of liberal equality before the law and then of opportunity, but also of results as an ultimate imperative. This later is unrealistic and has extensive perverse effects, and not just on efficiency. Also a leftist embrace from Christianity (in a way that makes it universally available to all faith first of all Jews) of brotherly love for all not just around us but very remote from us as well — with the strong emphasis being on the later.
Meanwhile the Christian morality of sexual restraint, especially for women, is not just abandoned but very actively attacked as “patriarchal” and “regressive” etc.
Not all of modern society is leftist of course but the elites very heavily are or a least genuflect to most of the PC basics, and accordingly our mass entertainment media is heavily influenced by this leftist morality as well.
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Badger Nation–
There’s not necessarily in a middle or high school classroom that that isn’t tracked or sufficiently tracked and doesn’t sufficiently challenge your level of intelligence. You learn the material quickly and then what? Well there’s flirting with hot girls in the class, if they’re willing to do it there (and are there in that class).
Same goes for many or most jobs from time to time or much of the time, depending. Hell it goes for all jobs some of the time. For one things you’re not always at your appropriate level of challenge yet; for another jobs and careers aren’t structure to be maximally interesting to their workers all the time. And you might have chosen the job for reasons other than your utter absorption in its challenges all the time. Though if this is really bad, you should look to be moving to something else if you can at that time and place. Right now that can often be pretty difficult. As well income does come into it for most.
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Walawala–
Do Chinese girls come up with this on their own, when they’ve only dated Chinese previously, and you haven’t planted that conscious seed in them?
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Similarly short-sighted advice could be given to men:
Just be a man. Fuck women, but don’t marry them. Who likes it, cool. Who doesn’t, wish them luck finding Mr. Perfect.
And since you’re uninvested in society, if you see a woman being raped, just walk away . . . and don’t look back.
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And since you’re uninvested in society, if you see a woman being raped, just walk away . . . and don’t look back.
Every single time I hear a woman “claim” she was raped, I walk away and don’t look back.
See ya toots!
You should find someone to help you deal with that because I don’t give a shit! The Duke Lacrosse Team and North American women’s attitude certainly cured me of that dreadful disease.
Now, in this day of equality, when I hear of a women getting sentenced to prison and getting violated repeatedly with a toilet brush for two decades, I start to smirk… then I smile… and then I start to chuckle for a few minutes before I break out in raucious laughter at the thought of a woman being pinned down in a prison shower by 13 dykes who repeatedly violate her with a toilet brush… sooooooooo funny ***wipes tears from eyes**** ha ha… where can I buy the video so I can show my friends?
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Chainring, lack of social dependence does not mean zero social investment. People like you remind me of the socipath panic of the 1990’s which became an excuse for witch hunts and harassment against high school kids who didn’t want to be on the football team or cheerleaders.
Not everybody needs to be gunning for top sheep to feel good about themselves or to help those who need it.
Unlike some other similarly minded people, I don’t want everyone to be more like me. As I’ve said before, western culture is one of the very few in which I can be me without being hanged or stoned. So I’d like to not see my nest destroyed.
When the classical writers described women, even in negative terms, it was as if they were writing about the sun or the wind or the sea.
Whatever happened to women who were like the sea?
I like the idea of being one of those.
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“Actually SD is right. Just because a girl is not fat doesn’t mean she has a good body.”
No SD is not right.
All Steve meant is that a woman has to be thin to have a “nice body” for most men…well, thin and a nice tanned body for me.
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Roissy, please please please comment on this:
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Vince,
Laughing out loud. What’s with the high number of fat girls in the frame?
God I hate the typical wedding party. It’s exactly like a club – loud music, stupid dances, alcohol, chicks who crave drama like whoa and want to get laid that night. A continuation of the bachelorette party, except the bride is supposed to do her husband this time.
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Anouk
” Never drink Miller lite.”
Why luv?
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1. Be hot,
2. Have a big dick,
3. Treat her like crap,
4. Make her come to you!
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Jay-
“well, thin and a nice tanned body for me.”
You just added an amendment to the statement which then in turn makes my statement true again. Every guy has one to thirty things they would add to what constitutes what is a nice body is. If thin is all it takes for you to get hard, well life must be pretty simple for you. It takes more than just being thin for most guys. Thin is an automatic standard. A given.
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@Jay
“No SD is not right.
All Steve meant is that a woman has to be thin to have a “nice body” for most men…well, thin and a nice tanned body for me”
Far be it from me to say what men find attractive. If a guy is happy with thin, or thin and tanned, SDaedalus has no complaints, not that anyone would listen to her in this regard anyway.
Btw, my comment about a nice bod was in the context of men preferring a nice bod to a sweet nature. I merely mentioned that for me, being naturally sweet, less work would be involved in the sweet nature thing. I didn’t actually say that maintaining a nice bod was a lot of work, nor did I seek to define a nice bod.
On reflection, a sweet nature may actually be harder to maintain though, particularly when people don’t read one’s comments themselves & just rely on misstatements of their content made by other commenters.
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Ronin–
It’s a guy’s beer. The reason I know this is because it takes like poo. Guy’s have a taste for the ales. Yuck.
(I like the occasional dark beer or black and tan because they taste like a loaf of bread.) 🙂
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anoukange-
I think you’re wrong about that. I don’t really care what word you want to use for me, but I like both men and women depending on my mood, and I do reasonably well with girls. Maybe better than you. If it makes you feel good to call me gay go ahead but I’ll still keep fucking girls if you don’t mind. Anyway, that’s not the point of my post. I know what men look for in women, because I like women, and I know what women look for in men, because sometimes I like men. And game has nothing to do with it. It’s a bit silly to think that some guy with a dopey face, flabby body type 2 diabetes is going to talk himself into a hot girl’s pants by being a douchebag. Girls probably make their decision if they’re going to fuck you before you even open your mouth. Roissy is helping some guys by giving them good advice so they don’t embarrass themselves however, he is probably also encouraging morons to act like douchebags.
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RE “no bi man” btw I’d say 2% of men are exclusively gay and 2% exclusively straight the rest fall somewhere in between. That’s another discussion tho
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*tastes like poo
when?? when will I ever learn to type and proofread?? I need a computer I can dictate to.
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Nicole — you can thank other women for helping to end, rapidly, Western Culture. In a flurry of bad boy chasing, tingling decisions made along the lines of Sex and the City.
You might regret it. But other women happily traded it away for sex with Alphas.
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“It takes more than just being thin for most guys. Thin is an automatic standard. A given.”
Looking at what “most guys” have as girlfriends, thin ain’t no automatic standard.
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anouk
“(I like the occasional dark beer or black and tan because they taste like a loaf of bread.)”
I hear yah!! Taking the edge of right now with a certain Pennsylvania brewer’s Black & Tan. Cheers Luv.
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@sidewinter(?)
Its almost like girls have a chip on the shoulder. They have to prove that they aren’t a good girl who’s afraid of risks, but they do so by taking completely idiotic and irrational risks.
Cmon now, what is the ‘actual’ use of ‘hotness’ in the modern world .. none .. pretty soon we will have artificial wombs with near certainty of healthy delivery .. we as men are still selecting mates based on EEA standards.. and so are the women … Irrationality is rampant in both men and women …
just that it is so much easier to find faults without oneself …
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Not sure if it’s been said yet, but u guys know she’s a virgin and saving it for marriage right?
Haha.
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“On reflection, a sweet nature may actually be harder to maintain though, particularly when people don’t read one’s comments themselves & just rely on misstatements of their content made by other commenters.”
–sorry dear. I should have been more careful of my wording so Steve understood it was my own point and not yours.
Ronin–
Yuengling eh? NY’s Saranac is pretty good as well.
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whiskey-
Don’t blame women for helping to end Western civilization. That would be like blaming out-of-control children for “helping to end a household.” It’s men who abdicated responsibility and power who should be blamed, women just act like women.
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@mark22
hold on there bro, let’s not get carried away there… only 2% of men exclusively gay and only 2% exclusively straight. You’re trying to hard to justify your bisexuality. Bisexual men are definitely the rarity, but they do exist, but y’all are far more rare than gay men, which are more rare than straight men – definitely not the 2%, 96%, 2% theory you describe.
Anyway, as noted, you are still a man. You don’t have a vagina, you don’t have high estrogen, you don’t have a monthly cycle, and you don’t have gina tingles. Yes, you may be attracted to men, but you’re basing that solely off of physical appearance, the way men are attracted to women. You still don’t know/understand what causes a women to be attracted to somebody. Most women themselves don’t know or understand women’s attraction, so what makes you think you could just by engaging in homosexual acts?
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Doug1
“Do Chinese girls come up with this on their own, when they’ve only dated Chinese previously, and you haven’t planted that conscious seed in them?”
This behaviour stems from the fact that culturally, their fathers most likely behaved this way with their mothers.
Many Chinese girls I’ve dated and spoken with on this say “My mom would yell at my dad and my dad would walk away in silence….”
Also, because boys are so highly prized, in order to secure male attention, women here had to work that much harder, so they learned all this.
Men here take on the role of provider…or had traditionally done so. Now women are working, earning money and the cultural and social dynamic of society is changing.
Even though the sex ratio is more women than men….men aren’t necessarily in a better position to be choosy because the women have undermined this by becoming the choosy ones.
I’ve had friends from Italy, Spain, South America, France visit here and find it unbelievable that women are yelling at their boyfriends in the street and the guys are taking it.
Then when they lose that power: through being dumped, or ignored they become that much more angry and manipulative.
Another part of this dynamic stems from the fact that Chinese men in the early part of the 20th century often had several wives and concubines.
Far from being “kept” it was the men who became “kept” by being forced to pay for the women’s affections if they wanted to keep it sweet.
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Samspade
I’ve never understood this talk about delaying phoning a girl. To this day I can’t imagine it makes the least bit of difference, and could harm you if you let the girls infatuation die down.
If she has already shown interest, then call her. She’s interested. If she has not, or has only shown a polite lack of disinterest, then ya, you have to watch every little baby step you make, as any advance will be seen as creepy.
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Anouk – great tips.
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Romance is mush, stifling those who strive.
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@anoukange
Tips for women that they should follow to keep a healthy, happy relationship.
…
Tips for guys:
…
I actually buy this.
If I got this, I’d buy that package. I’d deliver, too. Or I’d try.
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@Doug – great comment at on May 24, 2010 at 5:49 pm.
Apparently, I’m a natural herb.
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Note Diane’s speech at 1:30. This sums up the conflict women have between what they “want” and what they “need”….
The context is Diane finds an overcoat left behind by a bar patron and fantasizes about the owner. Then she meets the guy. That’s where this clip picks up. You can find the entire episode.
Note how in the end it’s the herb who owns the coat who dumps Diane.
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@Mark22 “I’m skeptical of Roissy’s advice in general also because I’m bi. ”
You think you understand what women like about men, because you also like men?
Uh huh.
You ought to get a job in a movie theater. You could be the projectionist.
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@mark22,
I’m skeptical of Roissy’s advice in general also because I’m bi. … I mean I think I have an understanding of what women look for in a man because I like men too. And I can tell you that on the rare occasions when I fool around with a guy I make my decision 100% based on looks. There’s nothing a guy could say or do to make himself attractive to me if he’s physically ugly.
Okay, then there’s an obvious reason. You’re male. Whether or not you look for men or women, you’re acting like a guy.
Actually, I’ll bet you’re acting like a hyper-male. Most of the gay men I know (work, a few friends, etc.) are much more extreme in their attraction focus than I am with women. Despite their femininity, they seem to be hyper-male when it comes to what they want in a guy.
Hence the exclusive focus on Hot Bods in the gay comminity. There are other types, but the Hot Bod for Men thing is definitely a strongly Gay trend.
I’m not that hot; women consistently say I’d be 6 on the scale. (some say 7, but they’re being polite, or I’ve gamed them). I pull 6-8. I pull 9 sometimes (it’s harder, but I do) when I play with some advantage (like being in Korea or Japan).
As my game has improved, so has my ability to pull. 6-7 is now pretty easy; 8 is easier, but still harder to do than 7 (about 3x); 9 in Asia is an 8 here for me (not easy, but doable with some luck).
Once you’re in, game keeps you there. So when you get yourself an 8 GF, you can keep her.
So looks definitely can’t be these womens’ only consideration.
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@Badger Nation
golden voovoo.
Awesome.
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@sdaedalus
“I think that it is no coincidence that women have got both fatter and sluttier over the last generation or so.”
Explain this please.
Do you think because women are fatter, and therefore less attractive, they have had to become sluttier in an attempt to attract, and keep, a man?
I think feminism leads to sluttiness.
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walwala
I haven’t dated any Chinese living in China, but what you describe is a simple female universal, and has a universally applicable male solution.
Dominate her.
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@walawala
Great clip.
I wanna be more like Sam, I like his asshole game.
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@Analog Adams
OKAY, this was an emergency alert if I ever saw one.
I could use some advice on starting points for LTR game. I had a disturbing discussion with the girlfriend recently about how she wants to live a “comfortable life” and expects it a man’s job to provide a lifestyle for his wife. Most of my time with her is enjoyable and shit test-free, which is why i started dating her, and we usually split or trade off paying for food and getaways. The problem is when she complains about the balance after the fact. I understand the principles of game, but I don’t know where to start with this situation.
Ignore it. Tell her: You expect her to pull her own weight. If her friends think you’re cheap, that’s nice. Why do you care what her friends think again? It’s not that it’s none of their business. It’s that you don’t care. It’s *entirely* irrelevant to you. You care as much as if some random old woman from Malaysia had said the same thing to another random person.
If she complains, then you say, … oh well. Unfortunate. You say: Look, this is the modern age (use feminism against her complaint). I’m not a bank machine. I believe in FAIRNESS. Always stick to that. I’M NOT CHEAP. IT’S FAIRNESS.
(I hate chicks like this)
It’s a shit test, and may be a BAD BAD BAD sign. If it’s like this now, try being married. It’s going to get MUCH worse. Your whole dymanic and your life will be outfitted from the beginning in Slave Torture mode.
You are *absolutely* not her meal ticket (literally) or her labour/bank machine. Any hint of that and you should beat that down like the dog it is. Don’t let her get away with it for even one second. She will take your paying for granted and it will get you absolutely nothing.
(Unless she’s fundamentally whorey; a lot of girls are. You’re buying her time and sex for treats. This is a separate class of woman from the usual set, and may not be yours; they’re good for pump and dumps only. Always wretched and poisonous as humans and LTRs. You’ll find a whole host of other manipulative, selfish characteristics that go along with this. In highschool they’re called “users”.)
Try these on her:
– You’re supposed to like me for me. I’m not impressed by that. (note the second sentence: Qualify her)
This works a treat: plays on her emotions and her self-image I’m not a gold-digger; I’m a good person, I appreciate someone for who they are: You’re attacking that image. If she doesn’t mind having that image attacked, then you’re not human to her, just an ATM. Fuck and dump.
If she says: Well, you know, you have to show me you like me. Then you say something like: I’m here, aren’t I? (I’m the prize). If she persists, she’s BETAIZING you or you’re no prize to her. Dump.
*IF* you provide without serious profound commitment from her, you have done either or both of: 1) Fallen victim to a digger and been played, and 2) absolutely failed her shit-test.
She will use you and have contempt for you. THERE ARE NO TWO-WAYS ABOUT THIS.
You’ve been warned. You need to be tough and stand your ground.
ADVICE: Do NOT argue about it. Just dismiss it. Don’t REASON with her. Make your statements, make them ethical, and let it sit. Find an excuse to get out and let her think about it. Is she dumps you: *SHE* has failed *YOUR* test.
If you absolutely want to keep her and can’t bear for her to go, then get ready for Beta Life and for her to lose all respect for you.
If you engage her on this, she’ll eat you up. YOU CAN’T reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
You’re falling into the same trap I mentioned in a previous post. She’s operating on WHAT I CAN GET, SEE IF HE COUGHS IT UP.
Say you’re not cheap. You just believe in fairness. She makes less money? You can go out less and do less expensive things. Suggest other alternatives. Tell her how much you like her. But you can’t let anyone – anyone – take advantage. Say, … You have YOUR standards, too.
*Asian Girls
– If she’s Asian, there’s a MUCH larger class of resource-hunters than in the West. Ditch. No, fuck first, then ditch. If this is what she expects out of you, you will be well and thoroughly tooled. These Asian women are experts at using, sucking dry and ditching men. They’ll fuck around on you without blinking. They are cold, cold, cold as ice. They’re my complaints about modern women X 100. They’re not a majority (except in China); but they’re there.
Dude, have some self-respect and a sense of your higher value.
EXTRA ADVICE
*WHEN* you have forced her to accept this, once in a rare blue moon, at a time when she thinks she’s going to pay – pay for her. RARELY. And then pass it off as, Myah, I’ll get this. It’s because I like you.
(Make it a reward, but don’t connect it to the good thing she did. It leaves her thinking. It’ll make her behave better all-around)
It’s basic dog training. Look up “superstition” as a training effect.
Man, dude, be a man. Do not fall for it or she will devour you.
Believe me, this is the absolute best advice you will get on this subject. Fail and suffer.
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Alas , Miranda , like so many other attractive women was only blessed in the looks department.
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@walawala
It’s a potent mix. Foreign guys don’t have it much easier. Chinese women may be more accommodating at first, but turn into passive aggressive dragon-ladies.
Not the case in Japan or Korea. But you have to play hard. When they get this way, know this: You can move on easily. Always keep at least 2 and be working on a 3rd if you start to sense the light turning red.
Chinese girls – being so valuable now – can pick and choose their Beta man. The Beta males are having no sex. It means an attractive Chinese girl gets to act like a relationship whore or prostitute and easily get away with it.
As a foreign guy, treat them as getting your amazing foreign dick and your interesting foreign time. Really make their bedroom rock. You *will* own them. When they go off and get their beta, they’ll dream about you and call you back.
Believe me. It works. If you want to marry one, …
Hunt fucking hard. Guys tell me it’s not easy in China.
You think China is bad? HK girls are total whores to money: They put out for guys who look like Beta givers (not even providers), but will fuck any Alpha who comes along without the slightest remorse, and for free. There’s nothing wrong in their cultural mindset about ‘This is the Husband” (family, money) and “This is the lover” (sex, romance). That’s how they work. You want to get married? How much did you say you make? And you can see them doing the calculation as they talk to you.
Moolah. 1) You cant win that one (some other guy always has more). 2) You don’t want to win that one (her affection is worth what you paid for it).
That’s where marriage comes closest to being prostitution.
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@Original JB
“Bang Bang Bang” video.
Dude, you rock.
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“Corollary to Maxim #57: A woman’s sex and relationship advice isn’t meant to help men; it’s meant to distract men from what really works to turn women on.”
So I told one guy friend who’s failed at love 4809234823098 times to be more assertive, confident, and more of a jerk and he didn’t believe me. I think if I said the ten points on this list or,”Get her flowers and take her on a dinner date!” he’d believe me.
He’s so awkward and he insists that he’s funny and witty.
So I gave him a runthrough of how a love interest caught my attention, and he said,”Nothing he said was funny or interesting.”
So he needs help with bodylanguage too.
I’d redirect him to this site but he’d be in such denial he’d never try it.
He’d need to meet someone like you roissy.
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Miranda is such a skinny bitch , that even a man with a small to average sized cock would feel like a porn star in comparison to her undernourished pounani.
I’d split that bitch a new one.
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I believe Rogue compiled it, but don’t know for sure:
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A complete list of Roissy’s Maxims with supporting explanatory material and you’d have something approaching the work of Robert Greene [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greene_(American_author) , except for his book The 50th Law (with 50 Cent) which looks kinda lame ]
Now get off your ass Roissy and publish the fucker.
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@sdaedalus
“I think that it is no coincidence that women have got both fatter and sluttier over the last generation or so.”
Explain this please.Do you think because women are fatter, and therefore less attractive, they have had to become sluttier in an attempt to attract, and keep, a man?
No, I don’t necessarily think this is the explanation here.
I think fatness and sluttiness have increased in parallel, for the same reason: the emphasis is on immediate self-gratification, what a girl wants she should have, and if the consequences (even if perfectly foreseeable) aren’t good, then the reaction is either to
(i) deny the bad consequences are great, this is the “curvy not fat”/”being a woman with a high notch count rocks” approach
(i) then that’s everybody’s fault but her own, this is the “society made me fat by putting pressure on me to diet”/”an alpha took advantage of me” approach.
I think feminism leads to sluttiness.
I think one of the problems with feminism is that it treats women as special creatures, entitled to more favourable treatment than men, while at the same time giving out about the injustice of men and women not having been treated equally in the past. Personally, I think that a woman should have access to education, work opportunities and pay on equal terms to a man if and only if she is prepared to also earn these on the same terms without concessions being made.
Apart from the logical inconsistency inherent in most feminist arguments, I think feminism may have gone over the top in telling women they are special little snowflakes.
I don’t think current female sluttiness is entirely a product of feminism, there are a lot of other factors as well (such as the mass marketing of sex & the general entitlement culture), but it is certainly linked to it.
I’m going to be honest and put the cat among the pigeons now (this is my genuine belief, so don’t all murder me, it is only a theory, you guys can say whether you think it is true or not)
This is my theory: I have a bit of a suspicion that men’s preferences contribute to female sluttiness too, they are not the sole cause of course, or even the main one, but certainly one of the causes.
Although a lot of guys complain about women’s preference for alphas having denied them a decent relationship, what these guys are really yearning after is not an LTR, but the alpha cock carousel, there are girls out there who might be interested in an LTR with them, but what they are really interested in themselves is raising their notch count.
Although these guys start out by professing there are no nice girls, after talking to them for a while, they start to admit that it’s sluts, not nice girls, they fantasise about, and that it’s sluts, not nice girls, they try to attract.
I fully accept that this does not represent all men. Some men are neutral insofar as sluttiness is neither a turn-on, nor a turn-off (funnily enough, a lot of alphas fall into this category, presumably sluts have lost their novelty value here).
There is a small category of men who would genuinely never get involved with a slut, whether or not these men are just repressing their attraction or genuinely not attracted is an open question.
But there is no point in men engaging in pretty lies about their own inner nature either; some men officially profess an interest in nice girls, while being turned on by sluts. This is why so many nice girls end up single, and so many obvious and well-known sluts get married.
All this necessarily reduces the incentive not to be a slut, also, many women like attention & being desired, if sluts get attention & are desired, this means that there will be more incentive to be a slut.
Again, don’t eat my head off on this, I may have over generalised to some extent, I don’t claim fantastic insight into the male mind, this is just something I have observed among my guy friends, as well as the fact that slutty girls often find it easier to get men (even for LTRs) than nice girls of similar objective attractiveness (this seems to occur most often, funnily enough, where the women are at the 5-6 level).
Although sometimes this is because men are taken in and believe sluts are in fact nice girls, in a lot of cases the men know, consciously or subconsiously, exactly what they are getting, because it is what they are actually attracted to. The fact that they may not like the consequences later down the line doesn’t necessarily entitle them to rewrite the script any more than in the case of a woman who is pumped and dumped by an alpha.
Again, I emphasise that none of the above is universal, but I do think that it sometimes applies.
Please don’t all attack me at once. I really am trying to be honest here.
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@SDaedalus:
“Far be it from me to say what men find attractive. If a guy is happy with thin, or thin and tanned, SDaedalus has no complaints, not that anyone would listen to her in this regard anyway.”
Do you know you refer to yourself in the third person?
Is it like a man referring to his balls as “the boys”.
Like this:
The boys and I would like to meet a sweet-natured woman who knows how to wear a skirt and push-up bra.
Or, the boys and I prefer a woman who doesn’t think cooking, s_cking and f_cking are cities in China.
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Sorry Philosopher, I know it can be annoying. I think I may have picked up the habit from reading Pupu, but she is more entertaining.
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Gorbachev: thought the video was a fitting response to the comely Miss Kerr, but more generally this should be the official anthem of Chateauland.
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@sdaedalus,
I like your posts. I add you to the list with Biktopia, except that you’ve gone much farther down the road to sanity.
No, I don’t necessarily think this is the explanation here.
I think fatness and sluttiness have increased in parallel, for the same reason: the emphasis is on immediate self-gratification, what a girl wants she should have, and if the consequences (even if perfectly foreseeable) aren’t good, then the reaction is either to
I think fatness has increased for one reason only: Diet. Americans eat the worst shit anywhere, and do virtually no physical activity. I don’t think there’s any need to analyze further. That factor alone outweighs everything else.
Fat women try to convince themselves that BBW is really beautiful, but, … instead of dealing with the problem, it just tries to define it away.
Gone are the days when men sought out stout women for farm work (anything less was suicide for them). Those women (and men) were workhorses, too, not just fat.
As for sluttiness, … feminism has to shoulder most of it. It freed the last bit of female behaviour from any kind of ethical base. Women were free to literally do as they chose. In some feminist circles, it’s almost a badge of honour to be able to fuck freely, without emotional baggage. Like a man, so they think.
That has filtered down. It naturally appealed to womens’ in-born aversion to assuming responsibility for their actions, and blaming it on the group/man/outside force. it was like a poison pill, infecting everything in a massive flood of sluttiness.
You’re bang on about men: It fed into the Harem-Building Fuck and Leave instinct in men perfectly. A Perfect Storm of moral decay. No, wait, moral collapse.
It’s one of the reasons why “Abstinence” movements will fail absolutely. The reinforcing ideology is just so pervasive and so perfectly feeds into the natures of both sexes, I doubt we’ll get out of this easily.
I’m attracted to sluts. I’ll admit that. Geez, who doesn’t like sex? I want a girl who loves sex and wants it. But I like the other stuff, too.
So, … the sluts don’t interest me much any more. The ones with more depth are more interesting.
And, anyway, I always assume girls are sluts. It’s safer that way. If they turn out not to be, then so much the better. That’s really a bonus.
I’ve gotten pretty good at reading the slut-o-meter.
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What men still believe this garbage? Maybe I can’t understand because I’m knee deep in game, but with all the knowledge out there, it seems that most men should realize by now that these are lies.
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Also, Philosopher, believe it or not I am quite shy, and sometimes it makes it easier to talk about things in the third person, maybe the guy in your example is similar. I appreciate it can be over-affected though, and detract from the message.
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@sdaedalus,
Although these guys start out by professing there are no nice girls, after talking to them for a while, they start to admit that it’s sluts, not nice girls, they fantasise about, and that it’s sluts, not nice girls, they try to attract.
Well, yeah; girls who want to have sex are sexier, um, than girls who don’t like sex. Sort-of by definition.
I fully accept that this does not represent all men. Some men are neutral insofar as sluttiness is neither a turn-on, nor a turn-off (funnily enough, a lot of alphas fall into this category, presumably sluts have lost their novelty value here).
There is a small category of men who would genuinely never get involved with a slut, whether or not these men are just repressing their attraction or genuinely not attracted is an open question.
They’re attracted to sluts. Sluts are sexually attractive. Whether or not mating is on the menu is a different story.
Alphas – Sluts were awesome after I got divorced. I became one fast. It got boring quickly.
I’m not one to pick a girl for a LTR (well, at all, right now), if she’s very slutty; or if I do, there are terms, and I don’t tolerate slippage. And I do the Cold War strategy: Trust, … but verify. And I make sure she has no incentive to wander. But the great sex and enthusiasm often does compensate for having to watch more carefully and game more completely.
I ended up in one LTR some time ago with a woman who was once an uber-slut (or, well, maybe still was); it was a rocking 8 months that could have gone on for a lot longer. At the risk of damaging my alpha name, I admit I was loyal the entire time. I never had the chance to wander, but I wouldn’t have anyway. But there was so much sex, and it was so mind-blowing, I’d have had no energy to look afield. And she was a genuinely exciting person to spend time with.
So there are compensations. Was she loyal? I think so. She had me convinced either way.
If you get yourself a converted former slut who’s attractive (7+), this is the *only* way to proceed if you want to keep her loyal. Just fuck her like there’s no time left and keep it brazenly sexual at all times. And you’ve got to be completely GGG. And never, ever, ever, give up hand.
On the other hand, quiet time is also nice.
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@Walawala
Interesting analysis of the Chines male’s dilemma.
“Chinese women may be more accommodating at first, but turn into passive aggressive dragon-ladies.”
3 years of hand and foot service says otherwise. Use absence and withdrawal game instead of direct confrontation. A little goes a long way. Also, you may need more sympathy and bonding than normally recommended to overcome her periodic self-disqualification.
Dominating her sexually and gaming her constantly go without saying.
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SD:
I think your previous post is on the money. When I’m the nice girl I don’t attract huge amounts of guy attention. When I’m at the club having a good time, all the guys seem at first surprised and then their interest increases exponentially. Admittedly a lot of this interest could be due to the assumption that they derive from my dancing with them, I’ll sleep with them, but I think part of the attraction isn’t just the fact that I’m available but that sexual behavior in females inspires sexual thoughts in men. Although it must be said once they realize I won’t put out a good percentage of them leave.
I have to say that guy’s desire for sluts also explains why they cheat on women like Sandra Bullock and Elle Woods with people who aren’t even half as attractive.
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Fuck, I’m glad I have a normal boyfriend who I’m friends with and is fun to fuck. You dudes are creepy.
Men and women have gotten fatter in the USA because of farm subisidies for corn. There is too much corn because of the subsidies. So high fructose corn syrup gets put into everything. Especially cheap foods. There’s like six times as much sugar in ketchup in the USA as in Canada. At the same time, the American middle class has been shrinking, and people are less able to buy wholsome foods for themselves, and too busy working at crappy jobs to spend much time on food preparation, and so are eating more processed food that’s bad for them. The USA’s obesity problem is just a symptom of its poverty problem.
Obviously there’s no connection between obesity and sex. All you have to do is look at Europe. Not as sexually repressed, and not as overweight.
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@Yarynochka
Fuck, I’m glad I have a normal boyfriend who I’m friends with and is fun to fuck. You dudes are creepy.
You women are pretty creepy too, sometimes.
Men and women have gotten fatter in the USA because of farm subisidies for corn. There is too much corn because of the subsidies. So high fructose corn syrup gets put into everything. Especially cheap foods. There’s like six times as much sugar in ketchup in the USA as in Canada. At the same time, the American middle class has been shrinking, and people are less able to buy wholsome foods for themselves, and too busy working at crappy jobs to spend much time on food preparation, and so are eating more processed food that’s bad for them. The USA’s obesity problem is just a symptom of its poverty problem.
Obviously there’s no connection between obesity and sex. All you have to do is look at Europe. Not as sexually repressed, and not as overweight.
I agree. It’s the food.
American food is mostly crap, fried and deep fried again.
Then again, there’s India. Anyone who actually eats there also gets fat. Fried and fat food.
But there’s no fat nation like America.
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Internet Dating
Someone posted Roissy’s collected maxims a few comments ago. One states that a hot chick need not be online, so if she is, she’s not hot. This is generally true.
When you can reliably pull 8, or even 7, online is a waste of time.
But for the other men (all the lurkers out there), there are fuckable and datable chicks (from 5-7) online who are hot enough to consider. And, while not as hot as Girl Who Works In Coffee Shop, bestill my thumping heart, they’re not painful to get into bed with, especially if they’re interesting. They represent maybe 10% of available women online.
(Also note Lavalife, home to cheating houswives and the men that service them. It’s a dodgy carousel of disappointment a lot of the time, but you get Extreme Willingness. I’m glad to say I never went this route, but lots of guys I know have).
If you’re willing to go with 32+, which I sometimes am (not being Roissy and appreciating a woman’s other qualities), then the attractiveness varies more (up and down; up due to desperation, down, because, well, there it is). If you can play Provider Potential, then you can score a few relatively hot older women. Anyone still reasonably hot by 36-40 will be desperate for anything even looking like Alpha with a job, so if you lack confidence and are 35-40, then this is your zone.
It’s brutal to older women, though, because you’re thoroughly wasting the last chances they have to find something decent unless you want to get married. In some cases with former Alpha Cock whores and serious beta- abusers, wasting their time brings special pleasure.
So if you want to play, online might be a great way to start.
TEST
As I like running tests in natural environments, I did three searches (DC, NYC, and Vancouver, Canada, for variety) on a popular dating site I found useful a few years ago when I first went to Korea and didn’t yet have a social in (you really need that in Korea: you need social groups, cold approaches are much less effective).
I came up with these. How many of you guys would be happy with this? Despite what Roissy says, online is not a waste of time for most men. These represent the cream, it drops from here.
Remember: your game is not useful until you meet. And these women will get millions of messages. You have to be smart and resilient. Learn how to online date before you start or waste all the good ones.
Here we go. There’s some variety in each place to account for varying tastes, and they range from 5-7
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Hm. Websites won’t post. How odd.
So much for the test.
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sdaedalus,
When I said that no one with sense listens to you about female attraction I simply meant that there is never any reason to listen to any female about female attraction. Even if you’re trying to speak as honestly as you can discussions that take place between man and women aren’t about content, there are always about other things beneath the surface.
Simple rule for sanity; there’s plenty of advice about what attracts women from people who are in a great position to know what actually works: men who succeed at getting women to be attracted to them. Yes, you could try to sort out women who make sense from those that don’t but why? What do you get out of the effort?
anouk / sdaedalus,
Re: the thin thing.
I originally said:
“Just don’t be fat. That’s it. That’s the sole rule. You’re not getting any hotter by doing anything else other than not being fat. ”
It’s not that thin = hot, it’s just that basically, all you can do as a woman is be thin to be as hot as you can be. Women who are curvier and have rounder asses, perkier boobs and thinner waists are going to be hotter but guess what? You can’t change any of these things in the gym.
As a gym rat myself, I see the things that women spend their time in the gym doing and have to laugh; at most one out of twenty five women are doing something in the gym that will actually have a visible effect on their body composition. At most. The rest are there barely working up a sweat (but I’m sure every woman reading this is an exeption 😉 ).
Look, it’s really ok to not look like Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2 or Courtney Cox in later episodes of Friends. Women aren’t guys; men’s bodies are built to be functional in working with the outside world (like by lifting and throwing things). Women’s bodies aren’t and men don’t expect or want them to be.
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“At the same time, the American middle class has been shrinking, and people are less able to buy wholsome foods for themselves, and too busy working at crappy jobs to spend much time on food preparation, and so are eating more processed food that’s bad for them.”
When I was in Dominican last month I saw plenty of fat Europeans. Kinda surprised me. And what’s with the hideous little-girls-with-cornrows trend? And the fucking French? Rudest motherfuckers on the planet if you’re an English speaker.
I suppose your comment is some sorta indirect “yay! Eurosocialism!” message. Umm, I’ll leave it to the reader to draw his own conclusions about the sustainability of such a structure.
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@Prophet Jeremiah…
Thanks for that list…
Roissy Maxim #13: Calling a girl out on her lie accomplishes nothing.
This is one I don’t entirely get.
Yes, I know, she’ll simply deny it and make a big scene.
But escalating or surfacing an issue and in the process demonstrate alphaness in that you know that she knows.
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I live in Europe. Your explanation is incorrect. Fat girls don’t even receive a sniff of interest from men here (Germany). That is the effect.
The cause of fitness here is that proclivity of people to use their bodies’ energy to get places- biking or walking, plus an extremely healthy diet, plus the tremendous cost of food itself which causes people to simply eat less.
Being fat here in Germany is like wearing a huge scarlet letter that says I HAVE NO SELF CONTROL.
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@Prophet Jeremiah…
“Roissy Maxim #13: Calling a girl out on her lie accomplishes nothing.”
This is one I don’t entirely get.
Yes, I know, she’ll simply deny it and make a big scene….or pout…or try to reframe. But who cares? Isn’t that part of the delight of calling her out?
But escalating or surfacing an issue and in the process demonstrate alphaness in that you know that she knows.
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Mark22-
You took a pee-pee in the pooper. By definition, even if once, you’re GAY. I don’t mean it to be mean, it’s just the definition of it, that’s all. There are very few issues in this society that are black and white, that is one of them.
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Gay= pillow bitter. Unless of course you’re always pitching.
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*biter
damn it, I give up.
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SD-
awesome comment above. word.
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I agree with SD that some men just love sluts.
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All men love sluts. But like women, when you get married, the tempo changes. You have to think with more than your hormones. Fear enters the picture.
Any man who says he’s not turned on by a hot, tarted-up, slutty girl with a come-hither look is, as I’ve said before, a disingenuous shit.
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@SD
I think fatness and sluttiness have increased in parallel, for the same reason: the emphasis is on immediate self-gratification, what a girl wants she should have, and if the consequences (even if perfectly foreseeable) aren’t good, then the reaction is either to
You nailed it. Princess complex, entitlement, however you want to characterize it. It’s all about rationalizing being totally impulsive. Our consumer-oriented culture is as much to blame for this as feminism is.
Are men like this too though? They probably are in some ways, but maybe I’m just not seeing it because men aren’t as protected or “empowered” to do whatever the hell they want without censure.
This is my theory: I have a bit of a suspicion that men’s preferences contribute to female sluttiness too, they are not the sole cause of course, or even the main one, but certainly one of the causes.
This is true. The desire for alphas/sluts is the same in each sex. Thats why I think, in the context of LTRs, a guy will keep his woman happy by embracing alpha behaviors and a woman will keep her man happy by embracing her inner slut. Like everything else in life, it requires tact and moderation.
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Damn I screwed up the italics. Paragraphs 2, 3, and 5 are me. Sorry about that.
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anoukange –
That’s pretty categorical for such a nuanced/soft/loving/curious/accepting/blahblahblah person. “They” would approve.
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sdaedalus, Sox –
I’ll second the second. I don’t know whether there’s always been this degree of focus on looking successful/impressive at the expense of inner contentment, because I wasn’t always around. What does seem to be clear is that the number and the pitch of external voices that are trying to tell us what’s successful and impressive looks like, is high and growing.
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@sdaedalus
Men like sex. That’s what drives us to talk to, date, get in relationships. It’s the underlying factor. In generally is all we really want. And we want it to be quality and quantity.
If the sluts are giving it to us and the nice girls are trying to withold and make us wait for it, is it any surprise a lot guys wind up dating sluts over nice girls?
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Thanks for your reply Sox, I mess up italics too all the time
I guess GirlGame or one of the other female commenters here (one comes to mind, hint hint) should actually be doing an Athol Kay type post on how a woman should embrace her inner slut. I haven’t seen this specifically suggested before, it could be useful.
Can we trust men to tell us the truth in this regard, I wonder?
I agree completely about the consumer-oriented culture and I do think some men have a sense of entitlement (all my exes who felt they deserved to be with Angelina Jolie come to mind) although women’s sense of entitlement is currently worse in general.
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Willy, I think a lot of us are trying to avoid being pumped and dumped, some of us actually worry that if we put out too early it will lower us in the guy’s estimation (and it often does), and we will be relegated to pump n dump status.
Also, it takes a while to get to know whether a relationship with a guy is going to last, lots of relationships don’t survive beyond the third or fourth date, if we were to sleep with all these guys immediately this would mean a very high notch count, not all of us want this.
The net result is that we end up walking a very fine line, it is easier to err on the side of caution. I really get fed up when this is interpreted as lack of interest or selfishness, it is not much fun for us either.
Btw the italics seem to have gone mad.
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@sdaedalus
“I really get fed up when this is interpreted as lack of interest”
That’s generally how I take it…. and I move on.
What’s the point of dating a girl after the 3rd or 4th date who’s not fucking me? What am I getting out of it?
The italics have clearly gone mad….
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And some are generally indifferent as to a girls sexual history.
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Crap, we’ve got an italicattack again.
Anyway, Whiskey, I get what you’re saying, but men bear a similar responsibility in this to a soldier who was given a dishonorable order. Nature is not a courtroom, and, “I was just following orders/doing as I was programmed,” is not going to cut it.
One either cares enough about their survival and their civilization to do what needs to be done to preserve it, or not.
Guys who care enough aren’t squirming in the bottleneck. They understand that there’s a tradeoff when it comes to uncontrollable or certain unconscious aspects of beauty, and character. So they either get used to brief liasons with the hot who are unlikely to be honorable, or long term relationships with the honorable who are unlikely to be hot.
The guys squirming in the bottleneck for long term relationships with the hot who are unlikely to be honorable think they are smarter than nature. They’re as much to blame as the women chasing bad boys for being self destructively stupid.
Now, when I see sheep being led into a desert, I don’t blame the sheep. I blame the shepherd. Those with the ability to lead should get over their self pity and do that. We have much more power than we think we do. Thinking that we are powerless is part of our problem, that we need to get over in order to change things.
If an imam who can’t even read can convince desperate guys to blow themselves up, then a Whiskey should be able to convince a woman to wake up.
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Gorbachev
Apparently some guys get all squickie at the notion of a pre-conditioned vagina.
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@vasafaxa
I think you mean Elin Nordegren. Elle Woods is a fictional character from Legally Blond.
Makes one wonder… if Elin Nordegren and/or Sandra Bullock would be sluttier in the bedroom and give their men more quality and quantity sex, would they have strayed with sluttier, less attractive girls?
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Sadly, so called “men’s magazines” like Men’s Health give this same kind of advice to men.
Roissy should have a column in Men’s Health.
Come to think of it, Roissy should have a column in Cosmo to help the hapless and miserable women who have been brainwashed by feminism.
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Sdaedalus, what most women fail to understand is that the who matters more than the what.
If a guy isn’t looking for, or isn’t ready for a long term relationship, or he’s in search of the unicorn and the woman isn’t close enough to his image, then no amount of goodness or suitability on the woman’s part, is going to make any difference whatsoever.
So the “trick” (that has always worked for me) is to select guys who were looking for long term relationships and aren’t chasing the unicorn. There are distinct behavioral cues that give them away regardless of what they say.
The only bit that is complicated is social status, but in a western culture, you really don’t have that problem unless you date middle eastern guys, or those from some weird families that do half arranged marriages.
If there is a problem, it is that regular sex and being treated like a man tends to raise a guy’s status. Once that happens then, like my first husband, if he has any small part of him that desires the unicorn, he’ll think he can do better, and leave or push you out. I learned that lesson the hard way and did much better the second time by selecting a guy who was definitely not looking for the unicorn ever in his life, but happened to stumble upon one due to alphatude, and get a hoof to the nads.
A guy who is naturally dominant and never needed a woman to be “perfect” to get it up, only needs one such incident in his life to confirm his preference for balance.
So just find a guy who isn’t chasing the unicorn. There seem to be more of those than there are women who aren’t chasing Mr. Perfect T. Badass.
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cleaning the italic attack.
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Thanks Nicole. That’s good advice.
Unfortunately I have a fatal tendency to raise the status of men I am with, this is usually catastrophic. Of course, there’s also the possibility that I attract, and am attracted to, raging narcissists in embryo.
Sometimes I wonder whether I should apply some of the guy game techniques for betas, but I’m not sure they would be appropriate for women, I fear being mischaracterised as a cold-hearted bitch.
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Wants, restated in the context of power: We are strongly attracted to certain people, and that strong attraction represents the power they have over us.
When we state things we “want,” they’re things that mitigate that power. They show us that the other person is under our power as we are theirs. It makes us more comfortable giving ourselves into whatever influence the other person has.
This makes me think of Greene’s “Art of Seduction” since he utilizes the predator/prey relationship and describes the actual act as a surrender from one person to another. The prey wants to be seduced but simultaneously resists it.
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xsplat,
It’s not a hard and fast rule, but I believe it’s best to err on the side of patience. It’s true that if a woman’s interest level is stratospherically high, she will disregard minor beta slips like a day-after phone call. If your game is solid Alpha, you will probably get away with this.
But considering that my anecdote occurred when I was still a bit of a chump, calling immediately afterward sabotaged my chances. It was safe to say the girl’s interest was only high enough to give me her number, but probably no more than that. Who knows – she may never have called me back, anyway. The point is, at that juncture I could have done things better, but I didn’t, and I’ll never know now if I could have banged, dated, etc.
I think patience is a precept you have to follow when you’re working on your game. Certainly you’ll have more latitude when you get better, but chances are an alpha has enough options that he won’t call a new one right away just by virtue of his busy dating life.
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@SteveJohnston
Thanks for your reply. That was actually very sweet, I do appreciate it.
I agree that no woman is ever completely honest about what attracts her in men, I suspect that no man is every completely honest about what attracts him in women though. I do try to be honest and the fact that I don’t know any of you guys personally and the geographical remove makes it easier. I put forward my views not as absolutes, but to get an opinion on them, I’m not on this thread to teach but to learn, but it is easier to learn with encouragement rather than being made to feel stupid. I appreciate that a lot of you may think there is no place for women on this blog at all, I really can’t say whether you are right or wrong in this regard but I am grateful to those of you who have taken the trouble to explain your views to me, I do really appreciate it, it has helped me a lot in dealing with guys.
Re thinness is all that is required, that would be bliss indeed, I would much sooner eat less than exercise.
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Sdaedalus, it doesn’t take a narcissist to leave the woman who was with him all the way. It just takes a regular idiot.
Well, maybe not an idiot…a guy who doesn’t know that happy commitments are rare these days. One can’t take something for granted that they know is rare.
It’s the same reason women leave men who’ve been with them all the way. If they understood how difficult it is for men to override their programming, or resist it, they’d value the guy who loves them through the stretch marks more.
About whether or not to game your man, that depends on how much you value him in particular. It’s no more being an actual bitch than male game is being an actual asshole.
It’s understanding your man is socially dependent, and playing the compatible role, while at the same time being true to the personal aspects of nature. It’s not living a lie unless you sell out your integrity.
In the case of the non feminist, it’s kind of bolstering him against external forces that might convince him to fall into the traps. If you’re the hottest chick he can afford, whatever that means to the society you’re in, then you don’t have to worry about him falling for another, even if he shags her.
If I’d known then what I know now, then when given the choice, I’d have taken the synthroid and amphetamines. By now, I’d look like a prune on toothpicks, but I’d still be with my daughter’s father. Staying at the same level of social beauty would have convinced him to ignore the attitude that comes with being a whore on speed. I know this from the women he fell for after me.
I didn’t know that being adamantly survivalist would cost me my first husband. I can’t say I have any regrets, but if you’re in it for life, you have to be prepared for life. If that’s life with a beta man, then put on your high heels and makeup, and don’t get fat.
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Gorbachev
Well, yeah; girls who want to have sex are sexier, um, than girls who don’t like sex. Sort-of by definition.
Is not true that nice girls don’t like sex. Some of us actually like it just as much, if not more, than most sluts.
Leaving aside the fact that the sexually cold slut is far more common than they let men think (a classic example of the sexually cold slut would be Kate in John Steinbeck’s East of Eden), a certain level of emotional coldness is a pre-requisite to slut survival.
Even if you don’t have this emotional distance at the beginning, my impression is that it is acquired very very quickly, as a defence mechanism, otherwise one either cracks up, or reforms. It may not be permanent, sometimes a particular guy can break through this defence mechanism, but in many cases it lasts for a long time, maybe forever.
Quite honestly the linking of sex and emotion in women can be an absolute curse, when relationships go badly it is hell, but when things go well it makes it all worth it, it really does, not all of us want to risk losing this.
Also, most smart girls know that LTRs are better for us in the long-term, but men won’t get into or at least won’t stay very long in LTRs with women they consider slutty. To compound matters, the standard of “too slutty for an LTR” varies widely, and also, even when asked, very few men tell the truth about their particular standard.
One worries that sleeping with a guy too easily will make the chances of a decent LTR, not just with him, but with future guys, less likely.
Leaving aside religious or moral considerations, these are in my opinion two important reasons why some girls who like sex don’t put out easily. There may be other reasons as well, but these are the ones that come to my mind first.
Btw I’m actually not using slut in a pejorative sense at all, it is a particular lifestyle choice, but it comes at a price. For some of us, the price is too high, for others it is not.
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Sdaedalus, it doesn’t take a narcissist to leave the woman who was with him all the way. It just takes a regular idiot.
I agree, Nicole. The narcissism was an added extra.
If I’d known then what I know now, then when given the choice, I’d have taken the synthroid and amphetamines. By now, I’d look like a prune on toothpicks, but I’d still be with my daughter’s father. Staying at the same level of social beauty would have convinced him to ignore the attitude that comes with being a whore on speed
Being slim & staying at the same level made absolutely no damned difference as far as I was concerned, when the unicorn is sighted, the man runs, and doesn’t look back.
I like your unicorn analogy, I really do. What are the signals to help spot someone who isn’t going to follow the chase?
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SDaedalus, I can’t really articulate how to tell the difference without getting a little uncomfortably Freudian. If you had a good dad, then being with these kinds of guys feels kind of like talking to your dad. Your dad loves you and thinks you’re the prettiest girl in the world even if you’re not. Know what I mean?
It’s like you have a certain unspoken sacred trust, and they have the same thing, and like wolves meeting in a dark forest, you know your own kind.
Trust nature.
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Thank you Nicole, I will have a think about this.
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Just remember that there are no guarantees. People get old, sick, and die.
Stuff happens, but at least if you’re with the kind of guy who isn’t broken, they’ll never betray you. So if it’s not an everlasting romance, it’s an everlasting something positive.
Also, remember that “fear is the mindkiller…”
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Women are like children. If you ask a kid what would make the best parent, his list would basically be:
4. Gives me pizza and ice cream every meal of the day!
3. Buys me every single new Xbox game!
2. Lets me stay up all night long!
1. Doesn’t make me do homework ever!!!
And we would all laugh and understand that that would make a terrible parent. We also understand that the kid doesn’t actually want this deep down, and would despise his parent after about 6-12 months of this routine. Exact same with women.
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@Anonymous
Lol. I like the comparison to a kid and a kid’s wishlist!
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Sdaed
Why would you think that?
Men and women don’t share the same motivators to truth and lie telling. It’s not like we want a provider and a completely different type of bad boy. We like our slim big boobed blonds to be smart and submissive. No contradictions.
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Xsplat – I may have been overstating the case, I should have said “some men”
I think that some men describe as attractive and go out with or marry girls they feel they ought to find attractive when what actually attracts them is a different type. A lot of the time this is influenced by not wanting to be different from the herd.
To pick a non-controversial example, although there has been a lot of fuss about blonde bombshells in the past, and a lot of men talk about their type being the All American Blonde some of these guys actually prefer brunettes, but feel that they should prefer blondes. They end up marrying blondes, while having affairs with brunettes.
Another example would be a guy who officially prefers good girls while actually actively preferring sluts. Again, the consequences are as above. I think this may be documented as the madonna-whore complex.
Also, I think a lot of men, when talking to a woman about attraction, can be a bit disingenuous when saying what type of woman what they are attracted to, unless there is no possibility whatsoever of sex with that woman being up for grabs in the future, if there is such a possibility, they don’t want to say anything which will jeopardise their chances. Betas are particularly prone to this.
I agree that one is more likely to get honesty from alphas in this regard, although there are also some men whose statements about what they are attracted to in women are carefully calibrated for the purposes of seduction, some guys are very skilled at building attraction through this.
Hope this clarifies matters, sorry about the overstatement.
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There’s only one tip on my list.
1. Stay away from me you psychotic hos.
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No girl just deserves to be treated like a Goddess just because she happens to have a vagina. That will just turn them into a bunch of whores with a feeling of entitlement. Treat a girl the way she deserves to be treated, if she’s a fucking whore, treat her like the whore she is.
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@JB
“”Also, you may need more sympathy and bonding than normally recommended to overcome her periodic self-disqualification.””
How would you recommend this? Any suggestions or examples?
Occasionaly I get “Oh, my English isn’t so good”—when it clearly is, or some such “disqualification”. I used to respond directly.
Now I either just smile or come up with some cocky reply: “Yeah, I can barely understand anything you say”…
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Coming a little late to the party, but Gorbachev´s advice to Analog Adams is really not that great. It´s accurate in spirit, but the wording is all wrong. I mean “You’re supposed to like me for me”? That sounds pretty beta to me. Whinny.
I do agree with not arguing and not defending yourself. But saying “I´m not an ATM” IS arguing and defending yourself. It just sounds bad.
The best response would have been to cock an eyebrow, look at her silently for a few seconds and then say, in a neutral tone of voice “I´d never thought of you as the gold-digging type” (ading only a hint of disappointment if you are sure she is very into you), then shrug and change the subject. And after that, made yourself somewhat unavailable for a few days. If she´d tried to defend herself (and she would have) you should´ve just let her talk her head off while wearing an expression that is the perfect blend of boredom, pity and amusement and, when she was done, say something akin to “If you say so”, sounding totally unconvinced.
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I agree that this advice is good for a man who is already considered attractive/”alpha” to the woman in question. Regular schlumps who don’t know how to take care of themselves? Yeah, not a chance in hell. To the “friend zone” with them, usually.
sdaedalus:
“If you’re a woman, and you’ve a different experience, do tell.”
I am quite easily amused; however, I do enjoy a good intellectual conversation (talking about literature, psychology, philosophy, science, or even a simple debate). As someone else said elsewhere, my brain is my number one “tingle” spot. If my brain isn’t involved, my body isn’t interested. Of course, through school I was often bored, because I already knew what they were teaching, usually. Reading ahead in books does that.
Could I date a 10 that was a moron? No. Would I bang him? No.
Would I bang a dimwitted “alpha” (as they are called here)? No.
The 10 I would probably ask to pose for me, so that I could draw him. I do love drawing pretty things. The “alpha,” having nothing to offer that would remotely interest me, would probably be settled firmly into the “friend zone.” If he doesn’t like it, he can move on.
Of course, being fairly old-fashioned, I certainly wouldn’t just randomly “bang,” anyone. I suppose that explains why I ended up with the person I did, happily with the appreciation of a man like Zhuge Liang.
Oh, on another note, Cleopatra isn’t thought to, historically, have been all that attractive. She was just quite clever and had a really good ability to sell herself. I’ll also say that I appreciate another girl who can try to be objective about what they want in a guy. I try to be, and my list would probably shock some of the guys here with its honesty. Hah.
Gorbachev:
“Any man who says he’s not turned on by a hot, tarted-up, slutty girl with a come-hither look is, as I’ve said before, a disingenuous shit.”
Or gay, asexual, highly picky or, possibly, more cerebral.
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@Discord,
Gorbachev:
“Any man who says he’s not turned on by a hot, tarted-up, slutty girl with a come-hither look is, as I’ve said before, a disingenuous shit.”
Or gay, asexual, highly picky or, possibly, more cerebral.
I’ll buy highly picky. I’ve seen it. Some people don’t like asparagus if it’s not steamed for the precise amount of time.
This could be true, but more cerebral can also be extremely sexual. Most really bright people I know are extremely, severely sexual people, especially the men; the geeks may look the part but, damn, do they like sex.
I’ve found a general correlation between “intelligence” (whatever that is) and “sexual interest”.
Cerebral could just be a cover for lack of interest in sex; manifesting as less interest in overt sexuality or sexual overtones. I’ll guess that, when examined, such a lack of interest will be found to be a lower general interest in sex and things sexual, at the extreme, approaching asexuality.
BTW, I’ve found it’s usually the people who are asexual I’ve found who tend to be the most judgmental about sluttiness. They can afford to be: they’re asexual.
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@Discord
I am quite easily amused; however, I do enjoy a good intellectual conversation (talking about literature, psychology, philosophy, science, or even a simple debate)…. Of course, through school I was often bored… Reading ahead in books does that.
You don’t sound that different from me then. Admittedly my reading ahead was fairly selective – I find it hard to build up the motivation to read about things that don’t initially interest me, I need interaction with other people to get enthusiastic about new things.
Could I date a 10 that was a moron? No. Would I bang him? No.
Well, not a moron. I think there would be a minimum standard in this regard. But we have to separate out the various types of intelligence, intellectual, social and emotional. For me there would have to be a minimum standard in all of these (any contact I have ever had with someone who had a really high IQ but very low social or emotional intelligence has always been a disaster) but it wouldn’t have to be stratospheric. The mix of fun and responsibility would also be important. Having a particular type of looks that really appealed (it is very hard to define this) might possibly compensate for lack of intelligence in the short-term (provided the minimum standard was satisfied) but possibly not in the longer-term.
I guess a dimwitted alpha would be a caveman type? Funnily enough, if faced with a choice between a caveman alpha and a beta who was smart intellectually, socially and emotionally, even basing my choice purely on attraction, I think I would probably go for the beta, funnily enough. Also, a self-made alpha might well have a particular attraction advantage over the natural alpha, and that is that they are usually more interested in other people than the natural alpha, this can hold a lot of appeal for women.
But I agree that an alpha-dating lifestyle would be too destructive. Still, it is great fun to watch fascinated from a distance, there is no point in pretending that alpha-observation is just an intellectual exercise, the reason most if not all of the women who comment or lurk on this site find it interesting is because to some extent we can see the attraction.
Oh, on another note, Cleopatra isn’t thought to, historically, have been all that attractive. She was just quite clever and had a really good ability to sell herself
I think Cleopatra must have been at least a 6, probably a 7 after all those beauty treatments. She must have been at least above-average attractiveness or able to get herself up to above-average attractiveness with artifice.
I think the criticism of her looks is not that she was ugly, but that she wasn’t superlatively beautiful. If she had been really ugly, contemporary women wouldn’t have been as threatened and would have said that she was quite pretty really.
I agree that Cleopatra’s story does indicate that it is capable for someone who is not a 9 or 10, possibly not even an 8, to wield great sexual power. But there is no getting away from the fact that her lineage, and the power that she had to offer to a man who was involved with her, helped as well, this is shown by the fact that the men she attracted were politically ambitious men, what is fascinating about her was how she was able to harness this political ambition & convert it into sexual fascination. A lot of politically ambitious men get involved with women who can further their political ambitions but this doesn’t necessarily translate to sexual obsession with these women.
This kind of thing usually only works if you have an empire to offer the man though (very few of these left). Being partner in a law firm is not quite the same thing although a lot of career women like to use Cleopatra as an example of how men like strong and powerful women, this is to miss the point. Also, Cleopatra was incredibly good at flattering men, the difficulty of course with flattery is to avoid the man getting so confident that he develops a god complex and thinks he can do better, this was not a risk that Cleopatra had to worry about, she was already a goddess.
Another example of a woman who was again not superlatively attractive, but was able to do the Cleopatra thing par excellence, was Catherine the Great of Russia. In fact her story is even more interesting because she was not of royal birth herself (well, maybe very minor and obscure German royalty).
I would love to have seen either of these women in action, it would have been such fun to watch and I might even have picked up a few tips. We need Alias Clio to come along and give us her views on all this.
I also say that I appreciate another girl who can try to be objective about what they want in a guy. I try to be, and my list would probably shock some of the guys here with its honesty. Hah.
Thank you, that is nice of you to say, I enjoyed hearing from you too. I try to be objective, but it is hard to be completely objective. To date I haven’t had to refrain from disclosure for fear of shocking but I’m sure that if cross-examined closely enough this might arise.
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@Discord
“Or gay, asexual, highly picky or, possibly, more cerebral.”
Highly picky, maybe..but also could be an excuse for not acting on his interest. Waaaayyy too many beta/omega types use that excuse so they don’t have to face rejection
Cerebral? Same as above, or maybe just extremely sexually repressed. Maybe omega.
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@Sox, @Discord
“Or gay, asexual, highly picky or, possibly, more cerebral.”
Highly picky, maybe..but also could be an excuse for not acting on his interest. Waaaayyy too many beta/omega types use that excuse so they don’t have to face rejection
Cerebral? Same as above, or maybe just extremely sexually repressed. Maybe omega.
My experience tells me this.
I see guys who claim to be too cerebral or smart or not interested, and invariably they turn out to be
1) resigned (long experience of unluck with women),
2) asexual (just no sex drive; I’ve known men who claim this; often they don’t realize it’s really low, due to lack of comparison),
3) Telling their woman anything reasonable, for the woman’s benefit
4) Wouldn’t know what to do with a hot girl, due to lack of experience and skill, or
5) Lack ability to see women as people, and lack ability to interact with them as individuals, or
6) Are extremely uncomfortable with their own sexuality in some deep way.
Also
7) Hate female power and sexuality. Repressed and potentially dangerous. Resent and angry at women, for the mere fact, when analyzed, at their being women. Actually, they hate themselves.
Misanthropes almost always fall under 7.
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The “highly picky types” makes me think of a good friend
He consistently ranks girls 2-4 points lower than most other guys do, yet I’ve seen him hook up with girls I’d never touch.
He also says “I don’t care” more than anyone I know. To the littlest thing, “I don’t care man hahaha” and “it’s no big deal ha”. Effective tactic to be sure, but it borders on overcompensation and I’m sure women sense that.
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@sdaedalus:
“You don’t sound that different from me then. Admittedly my reading ahead was fairly selective – I find it hard to build up the motivation to read about things that don’t initially interest me, I need interaction with other people to get enthusiastic about new things.”
Ah, I don’t really require the interaction to be interested in new things. It may be part of why I’m so easily amused. That aside, I would agree.
@: “Well, not a moron. I think there would be a minimum standard in this regard. But we have to separate out the various types of intelligence, intellectual, social and emotional. For me there would have to be a minimum standard in all of these (any contact I have ever had with someone who had a really high IQ but very low social or emotional intelligence has always been a disaster) but it wouldn’t have to be stratospheric. The mix of fun and responsibility would also be important. Having a particular type of looks that really appealed (it is very hard to define this) might possibly compensate for lack of intelligence in the short-term (provided the minimum standard was satisfied) but possibly not in the longer-term.
I guess a dimwitted alpha would be a caveman type? Funnily enough, if faced with a choice between a caveman alpha and a beta who was smart intellectually, socially and emotionally, even basing my choice purely on attraction, I think I would probably go for the beta, funnily enough. Also, a self-made alpha might well have a particular attraction advantage over the natural alpha, and that is that they are usually more interested in other people than the natural alpha, this can hold a lot of appeal for women.”
I certainly agree that there is a minimum that has to be reached. Sort of like, “You must be this smart to ride.” Hmm, social intelligence is moderately important to me. I believe that the caveman would be the ones who lack the emotional and intellectual of the types of intelligence, but possess moderate social intelligence. So that they can maintain appeal long enough to bed someone, or maintain said appeal. Typical “dumb jock” stereotypes abound. I prefer men who are at least as intellectually, close to (or more) socially and reasonably near as emotionally intelligent as I am. I know that sounds egotistical, but usually talking with people who fall into the median of intellectual intelligence or lower just doesn’t satisfy me.
I would probably go for the beta in that situation, too. There has to be that mental *click* before there is any action anywhere else. The right level of intelligence can certainly jump a man’s appeal up a few levels. Of course, there is a point of appearance at which no mind will ever get anything beyond admiration from me. I will admit to being terribly shallow when it comes to pure aesthetics. This is because, due to an artistic habit, I break people down physically as a sum of their body parts worse than most men do. As you say, looks is hard to define. Every woman has their preferences, just as men have theirs. Men get away with a lot more, though. I can see where a natural alpha would be more narrow-minded with regard to others’ perspectives. Of course, this is all generalization, and there are exceptions.
@: “But I agree that an alpha-dating lifestyle would be too destructive. Still, it is great fun to watch fascinated from a distance, there is no point in pretending that alpha-observation is just an intellectual exercise, the reason most if not all of the women who comment or lurk on this site find it interesting is because to some extent we can see the attraction. ”
I am actually currently dating an “alpha” (based on the chart he made based on desirability to other women, among other things). I would say, as with anything, it depends on the individual. I am sure that some alphas have terrible personality traits. Then there are the Pick-Up Artists; their lifestyle is probably destructive. Particularly since, supposedly, men actually end up living longer if they’re married.
@: “on Cleopatra and Catherine the Great”
I would possibly agree with a 6, given the coins with her face on it that I have seen (http://s2.hubimg.com/u/764833_f520.jpg). She looked sort of like a slightly feminine Marc Anthony. I would not say that she was ugly. But I would say that she was likely plain/unimpressive without all of the make-up, treatments, and the wig. As you said, she had power (well, with Julius Ceasar she had the potential for power), which appealed to the ambitious men. I’m sure that having a rug she was stowed away in only to be unrolled and presented to Ceasar himself helped. From there, supposedly, she also used her charm and wits, things that she likely couldn’t survive without. She knew what she was doing, and she did it well. Given her rather precarious position in Egypt, though, she was doing what was sensible and going all out to get her power back, and keep it, by any means possible.
I have been curious about the Czarina, but I have not taken the time to read about her. One of many things I think of reading about, then gets put into the pile for later. This suggestion may help to spur the possibility of reading about her. I wish there were more facts known about the unknown woman called Yueying Huang, she seemed to be as interesting as her husband.
@: “Thank you, that is nice of you to say, I enjoyed hearing from you too. I try to be objective, but it is hard to be completely objective. To date I haven’t had to refrain from disclosure for fear of shocking but I’m sure that if cross-examined closely enough this might arise.”
Yes, it is likely that being completely objective requires that you know everything about yourself, then be able to step outside of yourself without bias. Most likely, even the simplest person would take a lifetime to attain this sort of insight. So, I am certain that there are things that I don’t know about what appeals to me, but I am confident in saying that I know more than the girls who say they want a “sweet and funny” guy.
@Gorbachev: Oh, I certainly agree that cerebral can go hand in hand with very sexual. But, sometimes it just means that you’re more interested in thinking than having sex. Hmm, I agree that would put them low on the sexual interest scale…as you say, approaching asexuality. I find little wrong with misanthropes, I think they tend to have very realistic views about humanity. That is, as long as they’re actually misanthropes and not misandrists or misogynists in disguise.
@Sox:
It could be an excuse, or she could just not float his boat. I know at least one guy who I would consider an alpha (due to massive female interest in him) who doesn’t like “whores.” And not everyone with a low sex drive (or a complete lack of) is repressed. Most people fall in the middle of the scale between hypersexual and asexual.
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@Discord
Sorry for the delay in replying. I had a bit of a troll problem I needed to sort out first.
I actually would rate emotional intelligence higher than intellectual intelligence, but that might be because my greatest interest is other people. It’s very hard though to have a cardboard cut out of what works for one, it may be possible to say what definitely doesn’t work, but even then. I’ve been out with some very bright guys, some of whom were tremendous fun, and some of whom were less fun. It’s hard to generalise. Also, that sense of fun & mischief is very important to me, I hate stuffiness.
It’s very hard to say what looks are a deal-breaker, sufficient, or a bonus. Often it bears no relation to what is generally considered good-looking. Voice can be very important.
It must be interesting, dating an alpha, but very stressful, dealing with all those lady admirers. Is yours self-made or natural-born (muggle or pure-blood??) However do you manage to hang on to him? You must be some girl.
The PUA lifestyle must be terribly tiring, but I can see how the whole candle burning brightly in the wind could appeal as well. We have a lot of straight men here in Ireland who are natural bachelors, I suspect that the PUAs fall into the same category, maybe there is such a thing as a “bachelor gene” (too much testosterone & not enough oestrogen in the maternal womb?)
The Cleopatra rug trick was excellent. I believe it was a fur rug too. Talk about coming wrapped in a glorious natural pelt.
There was a story about the Czarina and her horse, but I think it may have been apocryphal. The official story is that she died of a stroke. This is not surprising as apparently she partook of ten cups of coffee a day.
I have not heard of Yueying Huang before, but I will look her up.
I am certain that there are things that I don’t know about what appeals to me, but I am confident in saying that I know more than the girls who say they want a “sweet and funny” guy
It would be very boring, if we knew exactly what appeals to us, also, it can change over time. Part of the fun is in the surprise, nobody falls in love to order. Choosing a partner according to a shopping list may well be the logical consquence of our consumerist society, but people should not be as readily disposable as goods.
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@sdaedalus
No worries about delays. I had some interruptions when replying last time. I hope that the troll issue is cleared now.
Actually, after clarifying what emotional intelligence was, I have to agree, there was some muddying between emotional and social. I certainly want(ed) someone with an emotional intelligence that at least matched mine. I have a penchant for liking men who are shrewd and cunning when dealing with people. On that level, I can appreciate what Pick-Up Artists do, but I don’t care for their desired ends. Fun, being completely subjective, really depends on the individual. I still would prefer someone on my level at least. Constantly dull conversations are my kryptonite.
Voice can be very important, indeed! I am sure that that goes for men or women. I think that men are more forgiving on that, though.
Natural due to being good-looking, and the confidence was cultivated by his mother, so it runs through to the bone. As for the lady admirers, I don’t do much of anything. He grew up with that sort of attention in a very old-fashioned family, so it’s sort of old hat to him. He’s used to Japanese chicks, who tend to be very shallow, materialistic, and aggressive in the circles he kept in. Very few actual old-fashioned ones around anymore. I stroke his ego better than anyone? Haha, kidding. I do stroke his ego nicely, but I think being quite old-fashioned, “cute in a way that a woman my age shouldn’t be” (as a friend put it) and at the same time quite outspoken (as displayed here) helps me. I apparently remind hm of his mother to a degree, so that makes sense. He also refuses to act like his father in a relationship.
I would see it as tiring, too. I mean, leaving a trail of hearts behind one’s self has a certain…sadistic…appeal. But I think that I would end up feeling guilty after too long. I certainly don’t like purposefully hurting people who haven’t done anything to me. Hmm, maybe while they’re mapping out the genome they’ll find something that suggests a bachelor gene. That would definitely be fascinating to read.
Wow, that is a lot of coffee. I think I topped off once at six. But daily? That requires a constitution.
Good luck on finding information about her. Unfortunately there isn’t much.
Knowing exactly what we wanted would make the search a lot more difficult, too. Because you would be constantly looking for someone who fit all of your requirements. Everyone’s list of requirements should have degrees. There are certain things that I refuse to compromise on (intelligence), and others that I am far more flexible with (eclectic musical tastes).
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Am intrigued, what is “cute in a way a woman my age shouldn’t be” this conjures up images of a 30 year old Lolita, am I on the right track?
Ego stroking is very important, I can do this like no one’s business. Regrettably the ego then grows uncontrollably, spews a lot of stuff over me, and moves on. How do you manage to avoid this?
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I really don’t know, it is just something that I was told by a friend of mine. Haha. I can be kind of hyper, quite girly, and very impulsive. Dancing/singing in public without caring what people think, pointing out little things that amuse me (sort of like kids do), that sort of thing is what I imagine they meant.
I’d say it depends on the ego in question. I don’t think he’s the type to think, “I could do better.” Some men are opportunists, just like women, and will “trade up” if they can. I think that if the guys are able to move on, then there was little to no emotional value put into you. So…I would say emotional value should be greater than the ego, if there is any balance that could manage to avoid that.
I mean, like the examples Roissy gave on the “Defining the Alpha Male” post, not all alphas “cash in on mounds of pussy,” even if the opportunity presents itself. That is less about being an alpha, and more about the individual. Again, he doesn’t want to be like his father in a relationship, a man who often “cashed in” and strongly didn’t care for outspoken women (very traditional background).
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CR Maxim 57 is utter brilliance. Well done roissy.
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@Discord
Thanks for the nice chat, and sorry for the delay in replying.
Sounds like you’re very lucky. But so is he no doubt. I wish you both the very best of luck,
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@sdaedalus
Quite welcome, it is alright, and thank you for the chat.
Thank you, and I hope that you have better luck in the future.
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I hope so too!
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You can’t believe anything a supermodel says about dating. If you want to date a supermodel you only need to be rich and famous. When Tom Brady was riding the bench for the Patriots he wasn’t fending off supermodels since he wasn’t famous enough to attract them. After he started winning super bowls they came out of the woodwork.
Same with Tony Romo. When he was a third stringer standing on the sidelines with the clipboard and backwards ball cap looking more like a dork than a pro QB he didn’t date anyone famous. After winning the starting job and leading the cowboys to the playoffs here comes Carrie Underwood then Jessica Simpson. If the boys go 4-12 and Romo loses the starting job his dating life will take a major hit again.
Women aren’t that hard to figure out since most are so shallow and superficial.
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Here’s something I have learned. A woman should never, ever take another woman’s relationship or marriage advice. And they should particularly not take relationship from a single or divorced woman – misery loves company.
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[…] Kerr revealed her top 10 romance tips to readers of AskMen.com, who voted her most desirable Australian woman in […]
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