In the evening on weekdays, the sidewalks teem with girls carrying yoga mats tucked under arms to or from classes. Their hair smartly propped in ponytails, perfectly round asses straining against black tights with neon green or peach colored waistbands rolled over the top, they are a flesh phalanx of trimmed and toned T&A. Women who are serious about yoga have the best all-around bodies of any group of exercising women — they beat out soccer players, joggers, bikers, swimmers, and porn stars. I don’t know if it’s the yoga itself that carves such exquisite hardbodies, or if yoga simply attracts Type A++ girls who hone in and sweat out with extreme prejudice 0.1% excess hip fat with the same mechomasculinized focus they apply to shuffling lawyer briefs, but I have yet to meet a woman who regularly attends yoga class who is out of shape. And I’ve taken a few classes. Believe me, ladies, I’m enjoying the view in the back row. Not a fatty or frumpy in sight. What town in America can claim that?
The steady stream of sidewalk yogettes had me thinking about avenues of approach. Surely, this was a rich vein of opportunity upon which to mine some clever opener to ride all the way to the naked Lotus position. Waiting at a crosswalk light, I peripherally ogled a short girl in — no surprise here — black tights and a green tank top cradling a rolled up yoga mat in her right armpit. Like Chuck and the intersect, I flashed archives of game knowledge until two potential openers pricked my consciousness.
The first I mouthed silently to myself to determine if it was acceptable. “Bikram?” No, I mentally discarded it. Though she sported the glistening sheen of a woman who might have just exited a Bikram studio, I felt the opener sounded like forced rapport. And questions demanding simple yes or no answers never make for good openers.
I used my backup opener instead, an example of the “ever notice” school of openers.
“Ever notice how people compete to have the largest yoga mat?”
She stared blankly at me for a second, before my word jumble organized itself into meaning for her. Then she smiled.
“No, that’s not something I’ve noticed.”
“Yours looks like it’s 12 feet long. You could roll that thing out like a red carpet.”
She chuckles. “Well, it’s not that long, and I’m not tall enough to need a 12 foot mat.”
“My yoga mat’s only two feet. I’m embarrassed to be seen in public with it, but my mom gave it to me.”
She laughs again. “Funny, you don’t look like the yoga type.”
I make a fake indignation face. “What, just because I’m ruggedly masculine I don’t fit the stereotype of a master yogi? I’m offended.”
The light changes. Shit, time’s out.
She loiters for a a split second before stepping into the crosswalk, which makes me think it’s a mini-IOI to go for the number close. But it’s a split second too short, and she begins walking forward. Over her shoulder, she smiles and tosses out one last morsel.
“Well, good luck finding a less embarrassing mat.”
A taxi making a left turn nudges into the pedestrian zone, almost brushing up against her leg. She gets distracted, and the moment evaporates. I want to smash a cinderblock into the taxi driver’s face. But then that’s not very serenely yogic, is it?
Serenity now…

Yoga seems to attract them.
And it takes them and re-molds them into something even more delicious.
My experience.
(Note: the more you get into suburbia, the less the effect is noticeable.)
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Is it pure beta to join a yoga class to meet girls? Isn’t it just another seduction location, albeit one whose massively favorable ratio is counterbalanced by the reeking femininity of the atmosphere? Akin, say, to going to a bar on ladies night.
If one has decided to join a yoga studio to meet girls, is it better to play the part of the serious practitioner, eager novice, or recuperating athlete?
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seriously, has anyone figured out how to tap that Gulf of precious point?
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Must be the whole yoga philosophy and mentality (yin-yang balance, healthy eating, healthy mind, etc.) which attracts balanced girls who aren’t into doing unhealthy stuff like cramming their faces with ice cream or working 60 hours a week or running marathons.
After all, yoga is rooted in Eastern philosophy as opposed to Western values of commercialism, money, and Ben & Jerry’s.
Plus, yoga outfits discourage fatties from signing up.
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I’d just like to point out something to Roissy followers
Why is it that Victim types always resort to a kind of Stalinism?
Example:
Roissy has certain opinions. But he allows comments from all over the spectrum; he may decide to paste the wall with someone, but he lets people have some kind of say. Often these people make his point for him.
On the other hand, you get radical feminists (or radical anything) who aggressively dent this. Just imagine a world in which people like this had power:
http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com/
And check out their comments posting policy. Debate of any kind is unwelcome.
One suspects that this is the case because their ideas are so limited, so narrowly defined and so at variance with reality that the slightest breeze of debate would send them careening off into the nether wilderness.
On the other hand, these woman have voluntarily elected to remove themselves from the breeding pool, as an act of defiance and solidarity with the Oppressed ™.
Solves the problem neatly, indeed.
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If I were in a yoga class, I’d say to the girl next to me “So, have YOU obtained nirvana yet?” in a slightly judgmental but clearly teasing tone.
Nirvana is really a buddhist concept, not a yoga one, yes, but that doesn’t matter.
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@Anon
Plus, yoga outfits discourage fatties from signing up.
This is it.
Women are conscious of it. Lots of other hot, tight-bodied women discourage women who aren’t from signing up. The most hard-core feminist resisting patriarchy and forging bonds with her Sisters will balk at going into a group where most of the rest of the population are super-hot, and she isn’t.
Self-selection.
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lozzllzllzlzllz
omg i am not fucking kidding you true story with a yoga teacher
she went to law shcool but is very rich as she is a lucky spermer she tells me lozlzllzlzl from rich parents
she went to law school @ harvard but has never seen office space.
zlzozllzlllz
so i say i’ll bring it over lzozllzlllzl
she callse me 2 warn me all she has is yoga mats at her palce so we will have to lie obne themand watch teh movie lzolzllz
dats ok i was plannin on scorin not watchin the flick,. ozlzllzl the best dates are when you watch the mvie fter boikining as it lets you relax lzozllzll with your cock at half mst lzozlzl
so i ring the bell
ding don ding dong
no answer lzozlzl
i call her cell.
she says, “hey i’m here i don’t see youa t the door…”
“wtf? i’m right here!”
lozlzlzlzll
“OH!” she says, “you must be at my other house!” lzozlzllz
so i drive up all tehse winding roads to this otehr manison lzozlzllzl
there she is
all hot and prim and proper and in shape omg lolzzllzlz wearing a skirt lzozlzlzl fuck da movie lzozlllz
and she looks around and goes, “oh fuck i don’t have a tv up her.”
lzozllzlzlzlozlzl!
yah!!
lzozlzlzzllzlzlllzzo! this is gonna rock!!!!
and then we start makin out as without a tv a man’s gotta do something and talk talk talk without my cock out is boring bornig boring i can do that at starbucks any time lzozlzlzl
and i spin her aorund and get the skirt up- lzozlzlllzl
and she goes wait wait wait wait wait aiwtaitwtw
oh no!! not! not! no! no!!!!! i say in my head.
and she turns to me and says, “my pyschologistsays i need to date guys who treat me more chivalrously. we shoudl go out to dinner. and would you mind paying because that would be chivalrous.”
omg my balls shrivled up and my cock was sold down the river lzozllzlzzlz
true fucking story
so she was hot so of course i bought her fucking dinner
and then we went back to her place and she let me kiss her onteh cheeklzozlzlzlzlzlzlzl
i had to lzolzzlol at myslef on the way home zlzozlzll
i can just picture all teh bang bang bang bagn wham bam thankyou ma’ms she’s had duringteh federally dunded college asscocking sessions lzozlzlzlzl
and now i was buying her dinner because her shrink said so.
lzozozol so anyway i did not text or call her and a few days later she texts me, “hey i had fun let’s hang again!”
so i text her back, and i am not shitting you, “my shrink tells me that i need to start dating girls in their pre-chivalrous stage–not in their post “i’ve had my fun in all my orfiices now buyme dinner” ophase.”
lozzlzlzlzllzl
i never heard back from her & saved lottsa money and weird feelinsg you get from a chcik who acts under teh will of her shirnk lzozlzlz i mena wtf is taht? chciks are hard enough 2 deal with without the prozac/shrnik voice shouting iut at you commanding tyou to buy them dinner lzozlzlzl before tocuheing the pussy she gave wway for free whenit was younger hotter tight er hoter tighter younger lzozlzlzl
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Gorbechov nicely put on both posts.
Anon: lol, true true
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I will definitely join a yoga class this summer – as for what works best, eager novice implies low social status.
Serious practicioner, sure if you’ve got the skills, but the hot babes with cool personalities won’t dig that. Recuperating athelte? What?
Ummm… How about you just be yourself? Hopefully, that means a confident, sociable, witty, in-shape and saavy guy whose masculinity is still intact even when entering a room with estrogen so thick you could cut it with a knife. You’ve already got a ton of cool stories and experiences under your belt, and yoga is just another undiscovered region you’ve set out to explore in the adventure that is your life.
If you’re not that guy, then be him.
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The marathon v yoga thing. I read a Washingtonian article detailing a 26 year old girl’s quest to complete a marathon. The “after” picture of her crossing the finish line was disappointing. I thought running made you skinny! Nope, yoga seems to do the job. Running bad, dancing good, yoga better.
Is making fun of your own yoga mat a too early DLV or an appropriate rapport?
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If there aren’t a lot of fatties doing Yoga, why am I seeing a lot of them? Maybe it’s trendiness that creates two types of Yoga girls: The trendy, “I’m fat but if I go to Yoga I’ll really burn some calories” types who drop after a little while and the smoking hot Yoga girls you’re referring to. Kind of like the ying and yang of girls training for marathons: tight, almost zero-fat girls and fat girls thinking that it’ll get them in shape in a month or two.
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I have to disagree here and say that dancers (the serious ones that actually perform) have by far the best bodies.
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One of the reasons that Lululemon and other yoga pants companies have made a fortune is that their pants make anybody’s asses look good.
I am signing up for yoga next week. Owing to some sports injuries, I am inflexible and unbalanced. Has anyone here actually done yoga? Any benefits?
I think just being there will kick off “identity inversion” game, as I look more like a linebacker than a yogi.
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Yoga keeps the body tight and the spirit young.
translation: Yoga keeps the tatas perky and the ass deliciously smackable.
“I have to disagree here and say that dancers (the serious ones that actually perform) have by far the best bodies.”
-many, if not all dancers practice yoga. Same dif. Although dancers have to be more muscular as where yoga is more for keeping things lean, flexible and toned, not “built”.
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“Must be the whole yoga philosophy and mentality (yin-yang balance, healthy eating, healthy mind, etc.) which attracts balanced girls who aren’t into doing unhealthy stuff like cramming their faces with ice cream or working 60 hours a week or running marathons.”
I think you might be onto something with the not working 60 hours a weeks thing. Yoga girls don’t seem to be the career oriented types with their priorities out of whack.
it’s baffling why otherwise attractive girls can’t keep themselves in shape. i understand why the otherwise unattractive ones might just give up — but unlike a guy a girl has a pretty clear top, top priority. a guy might be wiser to trade off working harder for more money and exercising less as long as the results weren’t grotesque. it isn’t always clear to a guy what their opportunity costs are. but to a girl it should be.
if men have been sent the wrong message that being a nice guy is the way to go, women have equally been sent the wrong message that staying in great shape shouldn’t be their first priority.
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Gaming when you are in the studio is a faux pas. After class can be seen as try hard. The best time to open an HBYogi is before class when everyone is waiting to enter the studio. Then re-opening her after class will feel more natural.
A regular practitioner will be able to tell right away that you’re a newbie, so don’t think you’re going to fool anybody. If you play another sport or just pump iron, that’s your backstory: someone recommended yoga to help you with flexibility issues that have arisen from training too hard, being under the bar, etc. If you are not fit, don’t bother.
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i see plenty of fat chicks in yoga outfits. the camel toe is attrocious. oh the humanity!
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The thing I’ve noticed about yoga practitioners is that underneath the serene facade is an inner ax murderer. A lot of them are stress cases and uber type-As who do yoga to try to calm down mentally, so I think Roissy’s statement, “or if yoga simply attracts Type A++ girls who hone in and sweat out with extreme prejudice 0.1% excess hip fat with the same mechomasculinized focus they apply to shuffling lawyer briefs,” is probably the most accurate.
A lot of pro surfers do it to help their surfing and motor control, so maybe one could use that as an excuse to join a yoga class for the chix.
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@gorbachev, i’ve never seen a comments policy so proud of discouraging opposing viewpoints.
Reminds me of the women’s studies class i took at my liberal college. Sure, they encourage intelligent debate, until you suggest the ideology underlying the class is any other than rock solid.
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Dancers are never really “built”. At least I’ve never seen a swole prima ballerina. They’re always thin, toned and extremely flexible. You show me a dancer that can’t do a full split and touch her heel to the back of her head and I’ll show you someone who’s faking funk. Plus, they know how to move in that fluid, feminine, super sexy way that all dancers can.
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Hi, Gorb — I have my own blog now if you want to contact me privately (just post a comment and I’ll have your email).
If I were looking, I’d definitely take a yoga class — flexibility is the one way in which I’ve gotten out of shape. I’m already a member of a big health club which has them, so maybe I’ll sign up anyway (opportunity for one of my favorite types of married man game, I call it “catch and release”).
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one of my old coworkers noticed me duckwalking the day after a particularly brutal legs session. i knew he used to run a boxing gym in his younger days, so his credit was good. he suggested yoga sessions for me.
i laughed in his face and told other coworkers, so that they could join me in mocking him. it was a month-long punchline.
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“Dancers are never really “built”. ”
False. Professional dancers have thick muscular thighs. Look at Rihanna in the Rude Boy Video – slim as sin on top, but a terrific badonkadonk and quads. Or Shakira in She Wolf, in the latter half of the video. Dancing involves plenty of dynamic squats, potentially on one leg. That means muscle.
Yoga is good, heavy squats are better. see http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/8/Hooters-Girl-Squats-A-Guy-358947.html
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Hmm, link didn’t work — got the slashes wrong and it inserted some weird junk. Let’s see if this time does it. If my name up there doesn’t link, go here.
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Cherleaders often have perfect bodies, especially if dancers are too willowy for your tastes.
College level especially. High school ones are too young to discuss, and ones in professional sports are often fit but ageing, augmented, or suffering from wiry madonna-arms.
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@polymath
Hi, Gorb — I have my own blog now if you want to contact me privately (just post a comment and I’ll have your email).
Sheesh. Everyone has a blog now. I feel like I need to get one. It’s almost like not having a cellphone – it just looks weird.
And I remember when only foreign students with Daddy’s gold card had cellphones (the Brick).
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“so i text her back, and i am not shitting you, “my shrink tells me that i need to start dating girls in their pre-chivalrous stage–not in their post “i’ve had my fun in all my orfiices now buyme dinner” ophase.””
I think, GBFM, that you are an immensely annoying whack-job with something hidden to sell (not sure what)…
BUT, I intellectual honesty forces me to admit that is a pretty fucking hysterical line…if true, I would have paid real money to have seen her face when she got it.
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“I think, GBFM, that you are an immensely annoying whack-job with something hidden to sell (not sure what)…”
omg thanx 4 saying i am an alpha lozlzlzlzlzl
a whack job with something 2 sell gets lotsa pussy and gives freely lots aoc ococka cocka
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The Specimen-
I agree with your description of dancers in your most recent comment. The casual difference between a dancer who is at peak performing level is that she has very, very little skin or fat over her muscles, so there can be less cushion. Dancing is incredibly physically demanding and lower body strength is mandatory. They have more muscle tone. Yoga helps maintain the flexibility and yes, does indeed allow for girls who do it to pull their leg up to their heads (and even behind) well past their younger years. Dancers on average, are slightly more muscular than that of yoga only girls. Built may have been the wrong adjective. Balance and grace go hand in hand but the real sexiness is in the way a woman can move her hips and shake her ass. She can “imply” things while simply walking down the street. I like to call it dancer’s swagger.
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“Too young to discuss”? Come on now….
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Feel free to discuss them if you like. I’m not stopping you.
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I think your second reason for the yoga is it: girls who are A++ do it, and are already slender. A girl once told me she had flat abs because she does yoga, but I never really saw her eat anything, and figured that was the real reason.
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greatbooksformen
sweet jesus you are a freak… what is the matter with you?
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Gorbachev –
You are correct. These people are incapable of rational thought and they fear those that can, so they shout down anyone who dares to challenge their ideology.
Did you read about the authors:
About E. Kitty Glendower
Dyed-in-the-wool mocker with Nomadic roots. Terribly cynical and borderline indolent. I entertain myself by finding humor in everything, including parody-like criticism of myself.
HAHAHA I KNOW U SO FUNNY!!! Kittty yer blog is HILARIOUS!!! I PEED MY PANTS LAFFING!!!!
About Margaret Jamison: Rolling stone black lesbian separatist with Southern roots. I hate males of all ages, colors, and sizes.
Fatty fatty fatfat.
The scary thing is that someone apparently inseminated Kitty and she has a daughter, but no father. I weep for that poor girl. Imagine the neuroses she will develop from having a crazy, self-centered, man hating mother.
Like I’ve said before, the emotional power of the mother is a force of nature. Left unchecked it becomes tyrannical and narcissistic. It smothers and suffuses the family romance. It needs to be directed and contained by the male. That is the ying and the yang of nature.
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@Seran
I think, GBFM, that you are an immensely annoying whack-job with something hidden to sell (not sure what)…
I don’t know what’s up with GBFM, maybe an extra chromosome mucking up the brew, maybe a few too many E trips, but, …
I’d write him off, too, except that it annoys me that I can’t quite work out what his actual motivation is. It’s actually baffling. I can’t work out what he’s selling. Or why he wants to sell it.
What’s more baffling is that he sometimes makes some kind of twisted, warped sense. I ask myself: Did he just say that, or is this like trying to read sense into Post-Modernist Discourse?
As in this:
davidthompson.typepad.com/davidthompson/2007/04/peddling_stupid.html
Maybe we need someone to pull a Sokal Affair on GBFM.
Or our own Dawkins:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/dawkins.html
(PS, Dawkins is fucking awesome. Our generation’s guru).
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If you’re going to go for the yoga thing – and don’t know squat about it – I think the best strategy would be to go in as a very confident male who is looking to try a new and different challenge (and tie yoga to something you want to get out of it – more flexibility is a good one, there may be others depending on your circumstances)
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ASDF,
Re your question: “I am inflexible and unbalanced. Has anyone here actually done yoga? Any benefits?”
I’m a late 40’s guy; broke my femur in half about 14 months ago downhill skiing (screwed up a landing off a steep headwall). Sedentary during recovery (8 months) and had almost NO flexibility in the quads when I could finally get back to working out seriously. Started doing it about 5 months ago maybe 1 or 2 x per week. HUGE improvement in balance and flexibility. It will help you with any sport; even makes lifting easier (muscles are stretched and relaxed).
Give it a try, but check out a few places –the experience is only as good as the teacher (and some suck or are just going thru the motions). You’ll know a good one when you find her. Hot girls are just a plus.
And don’t buy a mat (they’ll have them at the studio and guys with their own mat just seems herby to me).
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“Women who are serious about yoga have the best all-around bodies of any group of exercising women — they beat out soccer players, joggers, bikers, swimmers, and porn stars.”
Surprisingly, or maybe not so surprisingly, a large amount of Exotic Dancers do yoga.
Or at least that is what my research has led me to conclude.
– MPM
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greatbooksformen is clearly a pimply, 20-year-old Chinese computer geek in Beijing who reads this blog in between attempted hacks of DOD servers. “lzollzzlol” is not the sound of him laughing. It is the sound his penis emits as he nerks into his mother’s oven mitt for the fifth time in a day.
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Girls who are seriously into yoga are almost always enthusiastic in the bedroom. Great body sense.
Just a note.
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Beta of the Month Candidate:
Publicly Fornicating MILF Charged With Adultery
http://gothamist.com/2010/06/09/upstate_milf_charged_with_adultery.php
Watch the video. Her husband stands by her side at a press conference. Notice the beta pony tail. Dude stands there even as she says…
“Yes, it was inappropriate to behave in that manner in a public area. His genitals were exposed perhaps by the zipper but that’s it. But no one would see that. Cuz I want to make that clear to everyone, nothing was out there, nothing was showing. Obviously it wasn’t a good choice, look at the chaos it caused in my life alone. My husband–he’s a victim now.”
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@OI
@gorbachev, i’ve never seen a comments policy so proud of discouraging opposing viewpoints.
Reminds me of the women’s studies class i took at my liberal college. Sure, they encourage intelligent debate, until you suggest the ideology underlying the class is any other than rock solid.
I wonder why, … the Yoga women I know are a little tougher, but one of the reasons they do yoga (whether or not they easily admit it) is to look good; and when they look good, meaning they’re sexually attractive to men (or women), they have no compunction, usually, about showing it off.
A few of these yoga women are hard-core feminists, often the Dworkin or Mackinnon type. And yet, they exult in men (usually, if not always, bad boys of some ilk or another) and in being attractive to men.
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Naturally in shape women flock to yoga, yoga does not get them in shape. A 60 minute yoga class just does not have anywhere near the same effect as busting your ass on a treadmill for 40 minutes. And there are no end to the number of slightly overweight women who assume otherwise – shockingly enough (and I’ve known a few personally), these women NEVER end up losing it through yoga. And I say slightly overweight, because yes…the clothes do scare off any girl more than a few pounds above the Mendoza Line.
As Ron Burgundy said, it’s science.
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Interesting take on the yoga girls.
I’m about to google yoga studios in my city….
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Yoga classes draw hotties like Curves “gyms” draw fatties, and for largely the same reason.
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I got a blog only because betaized bastard on the “How to Win Back an ex-GF” thread wanted to send further updates to a few people directly, not for everyone to see. Right now it’s just a way to reach me in my Polymath persona (I comment/post on the Internet in my own name in several places, and anyone who knows me personally will recognize me here, but since I get personal in some of my comments here I anonymize).
GBFM is obviously not Roissy and is obviously American. His knowledge of the real “Great Books” bespeaks a fine education or an impressive autodidacticism, probably the latter. The great mathematician V.I. Arnold, who died last week, famously illustrated bifurcation theory and catastrophe theory by showing how someone with great natural intelligence and motivation could end up either a genius or a maniac depending on educational path, but that the boundary between these states was unstable so intermediate states were not observed; GBFM surfs that boundary and appears to counterexemplify Arnold’s thesis.
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Hello Cockas-
Great story GBFM.
I have to say that dancers have the best bodies (5 years exp.), but there is definitely a wear/tear factor. And it can become Madonna scary depending on the kind of dance.
I have to say that yoga is definitely for the committed and not for the maybe I will get in shape type.
Eastern health and wellness philosophy to the bank!
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“Well, good luck finding a less embarrassing mat.” lolol
Also good story by GBFM
Yoga girls are def A++ and they know it. Very high maintenance
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“Anon
greatbooksformen is clearly a pimply, 20-year-old Chinese computer geek in Beijing who reads this blog in between attempted hacks of DOD servers. “lzollzzlol” is not the sound of him laughing. It is the sound his penis emits as he nerks into his mother’s oven mitt for the fifth time in a day.”
lzolzlzlz what does nerk mean?
lzozlzlzlz nerk nerk nerk nerk in yo face lzozlzzl
lick it off your chin now lzozlzl
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This is like a really good short story, a mixture of Fitzgerald and Saki. It would be lovely to see more of these.
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Marathon running- scratch that, actually any running over a mile – is really bad for the body. Don’t do it. Go look at a running magazine.
Sure, you might see some decent looking younger cross country runners from high school.
Mostly, it is an emaciated freak-show: akin to a rabid flood of flesh eating zombies chasing down victims.
Yoga, dancing, sprinting, Crossfit and any other activity that requires intense output of energy for short durations will always produce superior physiques. Females take note.
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Yoga -like anything, add a proper diet.
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Eric,
I was going to nominate that guy, but in researching the story further I discovered a complicating detail….
Corona said that her husband of seven years is transgendered and that they have been unable to have sex. That is part of the explanation of what she calls “inappropriate behavior.”
That paragraph was edited out of this story but was preserved on this blog post.
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RobertG,
I would not want to see them in yoga gear way before they were anywhere near the “Mendoza line” you cite — that term comes from baseball, and the key number is 200. (A hitter on the wrong side of that line is too much of a liability in your lineup even if he is the best fielder in the league.)
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Roissy,
On a side note….
Have you ever made on how modern women have become so oversexualized.
Why is this happening exactly?
For example….do you know what a rainbow party is?
How in the hell did we get to this point and why does affect the young.
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Think that the Yoga angle is very location specific. In NYC (your new location, Roissy?) perhaps, but over here, it tends to draw new-agey women in their late thirties – sagging bodies and cliched opinions.
The younger ladies seem to focus on the gym or running, when they do exercise (the obesity epidemic alas).
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@ Seth
Actually there is a new report over on cnn.com that children raised by lesbians have less issues. I am NOT defending anyone, but let’s rest on attacking a whole group of people based on sexual orientation. I shall return with the link.
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DThurts, yeah long distance running is bad for the skin, turns boobies into tube socks filled with jello, etc. But the hidden danger is that it tends to increases appetite and can lead to overcompensation in calorie intake. So, you do have some emaciated types but there are also the runners with guts and butts.
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Yoga, like anything even vaguely ‘Eastern’ (Kaballah, Zen Buddhism, Sushi, you get the idea…), is pure chick crack. When you think about it thy’re right; what has the West given the world except rampant obesity, reality TV and bourgeois-benefitting capitalism?
An ex was a hardcore grrl power! feisty Yogi girl; we’re talking like four times a week for two hours each, she had the nicest ass I’ve ever had the pleasure of pushing up against and a spine that might as well have been an elastic, she was very exuberant in the bedroom.
She begged and begged me to attend one of the classes, and after finally giving in and going guess what happened? I had girls coming up to flirt with me all class, and I later ended up seeing one of them when things ended with Ms. Hardcore Yogi.
Ladies, if you’re even moderately attractive, don’t bring your boyfriend to your Yoga classes.
The best thing about Yoga is the no fat chicks. Someone said Curves attracts fat chicks and Yoga repels them. Nothing takes a shotgun to a fat girl’s ego with less remorse than being in a room full of slender, tight bodies.
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@Polymath
Haha…very true and yeah I know the origin…I just use it to describe a significant line past which something has changed. For example, here I meant the line between a few extra pounds on a girl and outright fat.
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Versus what? Single parents? Normal couples?
I’m sure there was no political bias in that study whatsoever. None, I tell you.
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R/C are the dudes.
I had a 12 by 12 mat for my old house. the recent 4 by 4 for the new house just…does not work as well.
For the hardwood floors I installed?? hmm to prevent any accidents while stretching. I bought a no slip mat and a rubbery lined mat and went to town. its the best.
ya guys gotta go where we are. we are not eating at mcdonalds…nor boozing it up. we are at yoga.
I was yelled at a few years ago from a older group of ladies for going too slow in teaching. I said, “this is not rush hour traffic, this is yoga, here, have a xanax”…both sexes need 2 slow down and relax.
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I’ve practiced Iyengar yoga for years. In the beginning, it was for back pain relief after a car wreck.
As exercise, what does it help? a little strength and stamina, but mostly flexibility and balance
The women vary from studio to studio and class to class. Housewives and retirees during the day. A++ types from 5-7pm. The female to male ratio is 5:1 or better, always.
For a lot of women, yoga is “me” time. Dim lighting, no cell phones, no interruptions. New guys may be asked to be in the front. Some don’t want you leering at their asses.
Anoukange describes it perfectly for many women; Yoga keeps the tatas perky and the ass deliciously smackable.
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Having been seriously into Yoga (3-4 classes/week with divinely hot and erotic Persian instructor) for three years now, I must chime in.
First off, it’s one of the last frontiers of the pick-up. Saturated with hot women, but hardly condusive to gaming them.
I echo Flahute’s sentiments here. Gaming in the studio, however subtly, borders on the inappropriate. The nature of the yoga practice is inward, and most people are pretty head spaced and inwardly focused. Especially once the class starts, there is little room for dialogue, especially of the flirtatious nature. It becomes very obvious, very fast if you are the guy who is there merely to try to chat up women. Please, do not be ‘that guy’. It’s embarassing, and ruins the vibe for everyone.
Also – before class is your best bet. Women will still have their day faces on, and are just starting to relax. They will also be more likely to socialize and receptive to your charms if they have seen you in the class before. Especially if you have skills.
Did I mention that? Yeah, have skills… And if you don’t, don’t overdo it as you will hurt yourself, not make it through the class, or fall flat on your face. If you are worried about it, just get a DVD or something beforehand so that you are loosely familiar with the poses, and style of yoga you are trying out.
Once you get good, everything improves. Everything. Your posture, your body mass index, your strength, flexibility, balance, self confidence, everything. Your skin will look better and you will feel younger. Your blood circulation will improve, as will your mojo. Some old guys I know swear that their hair stopped falling out. I got ripped within 12 months, no longer suffer from lower back pain, no longer need to see a chiro, and my digestion has vastly improved.
The above is however conditional on your instructor, and the style or type of yoga you do. Pick something dynamic; ashtanga flow, bikram, som moksha, etc. Avoid Hatha unless you are a begginer, or recovering from injuries – it’s slow, flakey, and partly why yoga gets a poor reputation. Also, if your instructor is flakey (50% chance) just pick a different time, or talk to people. The good ones become popular fast
Also – it’s mostly a core and lower body workout. Your arms and chest will get tone, but if you want to build muscle you will still need to hit the weights, no getting around this. Works great for women’s bodies though… who… look…
Incredible. They are for the most part very chilled out (you can spot the fembots early from the way they scowl), have incredibly fit, flexible, and feminine bodies, and LOVE to fuck. They are good at tuning in to their inner desires, and have very healthy sexual appetites. One also cannot underestimate flexibility. One of my exs who was a yoga fanatic would pin both of her legs behind her head for maximum pussy access. Another would do the splits in the air. Three of my former LTRs have been yoga girls, and it’s an amazing thing you can do with your partner. Especially, if she’s into girls… Staring at all those fit and flexible female bodies is quite contagious, and makes for excellent foreplay.
Lastly, if you are going to do it, do it for yourself and not to pick up girls. Yoga studios are self regulating communities with subtle rules. Do not be ‘that guy’.
In short, Yoga game:
– be there for yourself
– have skills
– talk before class, and after once there is rapport
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Wow Roissy, you’re really good. I hope I never meet you 🙂
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@Eric
“Watch the video. Her husband stands by her side at a press conference. Notice the beta pony tail. Dude stands there even as she says… ”
I find it hard to understand how anyone, male or female, can stand by a cheating spouse.
@Polymath
“Corona said that her husband of seven years is transgendered and that they have been unable to have sex. ”
Oh well then, that explains it. Completey normal and wholesome.
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@ GBFM
God I love this troll.
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“Actually there is a new report over on cnn.com that children raised by lesbians have less issues. ”
The conclusions of the study are premature, because the lesbians conceived with IVF. Are these women selecting representative sperm, when they’re looking at registries full of 6’3″ Harvard grads?
Sperm banks only take top quality sperm, quality being physical like sperm motility, and often require a college degree. College degrees and sperm quality both correlate positively with IQ.
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Just saw Steve Sailer’s post on the lesbians. Turns out they selected lesbians in smart SWPL metropolises like Boston and SF, and sought out subjects in bookstores for crying out loud…
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Anybody hearda hot yoga? they crank the temp up to 110 or so apparently. if u gotta good upper body, that’s a great place to show they shit off.
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I don’t know if it’s the yoga itself that carves such exquisite hardbodies, or if yoga simply attracts Type A++ girls who hone in and sweat out with extreme prejudice 0.1% excess hip fat with the same mechomasculinized focus they apply to shuffling lawyer briefs
the problem with these women is that they will also purge, with the same frightening monomania, the layer of fat that is actually attractive to red-blooded men.
or do you lads actually want a woman who weighs 100lbs at 5’8″? heh. white people be funny.
personally i prefer a variegated buffet. after a couple days of fucking some lithe-bodied white vegetarian 20 year old chick who takes bellydancing classes, i want to saddle up on an ink-black thick african goddess. then i want a freshly divorced older woman who fancies herself a late-blossoming amateur porn slut. then i want a trashy teenage slut from a broken home who’s looking for me to sell, if not to be, her drugs.
then i want then i want then i want then i want. and i successfully put anomie at bay for another day.
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sdaedalus This is like a really good short story, a mixture of Fitzgerald and Saki. It would be lovely to see more of these
smart chicks are such pushovers.
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el duderino
“Anybody hearda hot yoga? they crank the temp up to 110 or so apparently.”
Yeah.
That is why Roissy thought of saying “Bikram?”, in the little story above.
– MPM
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@ Seth
Here’s the article. I now await to be attacked. Truth be told the article critiques the study itself, but I wouldn’t assume it is an completely invalid study.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/06/07/lesbian.children.adjustment/index.html
So who is sucking da cockas tonight? Eh?
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johnny five,
I’m starting to like you.
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Johnny Five-HOE-
You are funny. Have your cake and eat some pasta too!
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sdaedalus: This is like a really good short story, a mixture of Fitzgerald and Saki. It would be lovely to see more of these
johnnyfive:smart chicks are such pushovers
Yes we are, I agree.
But I think the post in this case stands on its own merits.
Given my *ahem* feminine weaknesses and the number of raging Alphas in the Manosphere, when assessing the literary merits of a particular post it can be helpful to apply the test: would it still be a good read if the author were an elderly moustached lesbian whale trolling for young femflesh?
In this case, oddly enough, yes.
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My observation from flyover country – I’ve noticed women that are into yoga tend to be very much on the narcissistic side. To the point where they’re really not much fun to be around, except for the timespans when you happen to be boinking them.
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It’s pretty easy gaming yoga chicks.
1. Have muscles.
2. Take yoga.
With hot yoga, where everyone is half naked and thus you’re rocking near-booty shorts and a tank top, it’s even easier.
Have muscles *is* game. The hours guys spend dressing up their bodies would be much better spent building up those bodies.
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“Have muscles *is* game. The hours guys spend dressing up their bodies would be much better spent building up those bodies.”
not much evidence to support this claim. diminishing returns after a point. most girls seem to prefer a guy who is in good shape and dresses well over a guy who’s super bulked and doesn’t.
[editor: it’s good to have well-developed *lean* muscles (meatheadery not necessary) not to attract chicks (because as you note most girls don’t give a crap about big muscles once a minimum manliness threshold is reached) but to boost your own confidence, raise your test, and be able to handle things should a situation get out of control with another dude. you want to at least be strong enough to take on the average man who might try to physically tool you in front of your girl.]
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Neg wisdom:
Adding the phrase “for a girl” to any compliment really reverses it. Except “nice blow-job”.
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I guess it is different for everybody, but for me yoga definitively lowers the libido. I did a five week teacher training and I never had the urge to relieve myself during that time. Many yoginis stay single for extended times and they do not seem to screw around much. There is much of a monastic and/or traditional attitude in the scene. But that is maybe only for the most dedicated practitioners. Check out the word “brahmacharya”.
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laura I’m starting to like you
nonsense. you just come, open up your mind, bend it to accommodate my penetrating insights… and then you leave and move on to the next commenter.
you girlies is all the same.
—
@ sdaedalus
i agree with your implicit premise, which is that the intersection of “men who are good with women” and “men who can write worth half a damn” is shockingly small.
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Great post by eastPole…. Dead on. IF you’re gong to game, game AFTER you’re a regular. THEY’ll approach YOU.
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I have this title from a previous post comparing DC to SF.
In SF you have girls who are hardcore yoga girls – wearing lululemon, and all that. They have fine bodies and well developed kinesthetic senses (nice for sex) – but they are rare. I usually see attractive 32-year old women in this category – they realized they are going to hit the wall soon and are fighting it. They are almost all yoga instructors on the side.
Far more common (~90%) is the chubby hipster or lawyer girl who does Yoga 1x a week for 15-20 minutes, and considers it a workout.
I’ve been meaning to check out Pilates classes – those are good for other sports, and probably only marginally cougarized.
Stairmasters at the gym – FTW.
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Whenever I think of Yoga pick up, I think of this:
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[editor: it’s good to have well-developed *lean* muscles (meatheadery not necessary) not to attract chicks (because as you note most girls don’t give a crap about big muscles once a minimum manliness threshold is reached) but to boost your own confidence, raise your test, and be able to handle things should a situation get out of control with another dude. you want to at least be strong enough to take on the average man who might try to physically tool you in front of your girl.]
lzozllzlzlzlz! yah!
all fights get broken up pretty quickly so the thing 2 do is get it all in in da first three minutes.
in the few fights i’ve been in i’ve always leveraged teh surrdoundings. nothing like picking up a beer bottle and smashing it in there face game over lzozlzlozzlozzll.
i never never never never go out looking for a fight but if someone’s being a dick i don’t mind knocking the crap out of them lzlzozlzll
and the funny thing is that a lt of aholes like tucker max wlak around acting likec total cocks BECAUSE bars and clubs are filled with betas lozlzlzlzl
so they never expect to get called out.
one time i gots a drink from da bar and i come back and another dude is grindin on my chick alomst.
so i go up to reclaim my happy mount and he kinda shoves me lzozlzlzllz
so i wait a couple few seconds just kinda dancing tehre to the beat, run sideways, and CRACK he headbutts my elbow lzozlzlzl and down he goes squeling like a little piuggy lzozlzl oink oink lzozlzlzl but he just blends into the music as everyone kinda just dances over him lzozlzllzzlzl
fellas even though teh asscoking necon ginafeds fiunded tucker max alongside teh destruction and deconsctuction of teh great books and classics, i highly recommend hamlet: “Of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear’t that the opposed may beware of thee.”
And these few precepts in thy memory
See thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportioned thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch’d, unfledged comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear’t that the opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man’s censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express’d in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are of a most select and generous chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
no lozlzllzlz
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@I hate yoga
I have this title from a previous post comparing DC to SF.
In SF you have girls who are hardcore yoga girls – wearing lululemon, and all that. They have fine bodies and well developed kinesthetic senses (nice for sex) – but they are rare.
I Agree; about 5-10%. But they are extra fine.
I usually see attractive 32-year old women in this category – they realized they are going to hit the wall soon and are fighting it. They are almost all yoga instructors on the side.
Tons of quite attractive 32-38 year-olds, and one amazingly hot 43 year-old I met once.
Far more common (~90%) is the chubby hipster or lawyer girl who does Yoga 1x a week for 15-20 minutes, and considers it a workout.
They’re 60% at least of the crowd at certain times.
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This is for you older readers. There’s LOTS of action to be had at yoga studios, even for those of us in the second half of our alloted century. The keys (which summarize what others have already said):
1. Go to yoga for yourself, not for PU. I focus on achieving and maintaining flexibility lost due to back problems and other issues.
2. Be focused on you and your mission. Your mission is to improve yourself mentally and physically, not to gaze upon the acres of female flesh on display.
3. With (1) and (2) it does not matter one bit that you are a novice who could no more touch your toes than jump over the moon. You don’t care that the girl across from you can tie herself into a pretzel. Your focus is on you and on your mission of self-improvement.
The yoga girls just cannot stand it when an older guy shows up, focuses on the limited stretching and positions he can do, radiates self-confidence anyway, is NOT self-conscious, and (most important) flat out ignores them. They are drawn like moths to flame. They ask, why are you here? You deflect them with nonsense answers: old covert-ops injury, hurt my back on a drug run, whatever. You show no interest in them whatsoever. They just eat it up. They’ll help you stretch. They’ll watch out for you and worry about you if you miss a class. You’ll get asked out for walks and drinks and parties afterwards. You’ll get plenty of numbers. Keep to the basic principles of game and you will bask in the attention of hordes of scantily-clad females.
To ice the cake:
4. Arrive on your bike.
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editor: it’s good to have well-developed *lean* muscles (meatheadery not necessary) not to attract chicks (because as you note most girls don’t give a crap about big muscles once a minimum manliness threshold is reached) but to boost your own confidence, raise your test, and be able to handle things should a situation get out of control with another dude. you want to at least be strong enough to take on the average man who might try to physically tool you in front of your girl
every word of this comment screams cultural homogeneity. have you people never stepped outside a coastal yuppie neighborhood?
in particular, the notion that size is dispositive — in a street fight, of all things — betrays “editor’s” lack of experience with street fights and/or with any milieu where men are actually schooled in how to fight.
[editor: most men are not MMA trained fighters. that’s why i made sure to note “average man”. getting to a strength level where you can handily take on the average muscled man (which is pretty weak considering most men don’t work out to grow) will be good enough. anything more, and you are going to have to sacrifice significant blocks of time spent on career/girls/hobbies for time spent in the gym. and, yes, for the average man, the size of his competitor is often enough to give him pause when deciding whether to escalate.]
also, excessive leanness is a detriment, unless you have the natural or chemical wherewithal to be decently big at the same time. a lot of guys, especially white guys, are built like underwear models but vanish into the aether of perceived low-t skinnyness as soon as they put clothes on.
[my advice (and this holds for me as well) is that the typical man should want to get big enough to properly fill out a shirt. anything more brings greatly diminishing marginal returns.]
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@Southern Man
Show up your bike…. as in bicycle or as in motorcycle?!?
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That would be my beat up POS Kaw Vulcan 500, thank you.
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“[editor: it’s good to have well-developed *lean* muscles (meatheadery not necessary) not to attract chicks (because as you note most girls don’t give a crap about big muscles once a minimum manliness threshold is reached) but to boost your own confidence, raise your test, and be able to handle things should a situation get out of control with another dude. you want to at least be strong enough to take on the average man who might try to physically tool you in front of your girl.]”
I have found that most white girls tend to like the underwear model look over the super-meat head look, with possible exceptions being working class white girls (think “Jersey Shore” types).
I used to to be buffed out, but I now have slimmed down and am only cut and lean. I find I get more looks from cute girls now than before.
The only problem with being cut and lean is that you absolutely have to wear clothes that fit close/right or you will look like a run-of-the-mill skinny dude. Picking the right clothes will allow you to still show off your muscle definition despite the fact that you are slim.
As for fighting: well, the best way to be prepared to throw down is to enroll in a Brazilian Jujitsu class and/or a Muay Thai class.
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@johnnyfive
I agree with your implicit premise, which is that the intersection of “men who are good with women” and “men who can write worth half a damn” is shockingly small.
That is exactly what I was trying to say. But in fairness you put it in much simpler and clearer terms than I did
[I got distracted by the somewhat disturbing (not in a good way) image of the blogger as a moustached lesbian, and this temporarily affected my clarity of expression]
I am tempted to put you in the intersection category too, but I would need to hear those stories you promised first, hint. We ladies are all ears.
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JOHNNY FIVE!!!!
i love these sorts of bitches for a short-term relationship, because they’ll do anything for one of the few men who are both knowledgeable and poised enough to give them what they want — to put them in their place.
it’s shockingly easy.
and fun!
i can give details if you like.
—————————————————————-
Please do give details!!!! I wanna know eeeeeverything!!!
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EastPole is dead on.
I used to do Bikram 2 to 3 times per week. Its an intense core and leg workout during which you sweat out gallons of water and impurities. Combined with some lifting and pick up baskettball I was in the best shape of my life. Absolutely shredded. The high heat environment makes you heat up so much you just burn a ton of calories and the poses tone your whole body. My skin, digestion, hair, libido all improved.
Hot female bodies everywhere. Its a mix of tight feminine bodies and fatties trying to lose weight. As for dudes, its either skinny yogi types, or built athlete types. Definitely flirt before or after class. Go for yourself and become a regular and take it seriously. If you’re seen there a lot, you can easily flirt with girl. The regulars all get to know each other. The good thing about Bikram is its not spiritual. Everyone is there basically to look hot. After class people will often hang out in the lounge to drink water and cool down.
Highly recommended.
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when you get in a fight with someone bigger than you, jump up on them their first instinct will to not be pulled down and they will grow very tired fast zlzozllzllz
when you get in a figh with someone smaller than you and they jump up on you, fall down on them, but be sure to do it on something like a chair or rock i guarantee they will let go zlozlzlzlzl
From Days of Broken Arrows: “Honestly dude, I’ve made my living as a professional writer for years and have to tell you this is genius. …” acomment here: http://greatbooksformen.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/great-books-for-men-101-lozlzloslzlzl-every-day-in-class-we-woudl-discuss-roissy-a-great-book-lzozlzllzlzl-and-me-lzozlzllzl/
lozlzlzlz
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I have found that most white girls tend to like the underwear model look over the super-meat head look, with possible exceptions being working class white girls (think “Jersey Shore” types).
Negative. White women prefer a powerfully-built man. They just don’t like fat men, which is what many men who go on extended see-food “bulks” become in an attempt to gain muscle.
I used to to be buffed out, but I now have slimmed down and am only cut and lean. I find I get more looks from cute girls now than before.
Buffed-out or fat?
The only problem with being cut and lean is that you absolutely have to wear clothes that fit close/right or you will look like a run-of-the-mill skinny dude.
It should be obvious that you have muscle in any shirt even if you’re lean, otherwise, you don’t have much muscle.
As for fighting: well, the best way to be prepared to throw down is to enroll in a Brazilian Jujitsu class and/or a Muay Thai class.
This is guido advice. Yes, muay thai will help in an actual fight, but the best idea is avoiding fights in the first place.
I can recall countless stories of guys who are brain-damaged (or dead) now because they thought they’d act tough only to be hit from behind by someone else with a blunt object. I’ve seen tough guys get deliberately run over by cars while they were busy running their mouths and acting tough (both legs broken like dry twigs). Muay thai helps precious little in such situations. Also, pulling guard in a bar fight only helps your opponent’s friends run up and kick you in the head.
The first thing to learn is situational awareness and avoidance. “Throwing down” is for guidos.
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getting to a strength level where you can handily take on the average muscled man (which is pretty weak considering most men don’t work out to grow) will be good enough
One other thing that helps when confronted and a fight is unavoidable is acting like you completely aren’t scared and couldn’t care less about possibly being punched.
To pull if off in a real situation you can’t just fake it — you need to psyche yourself up, you need to feel like you cant wait for the punches to start flying. You need a big crazy thought rise in your mind that IT’S GONNA BE FUN – LET THE FUCKING BLOWS RAIN DOWN
yeah, a little crazy like that, and chances are that even if the douche doesn’t back off you’ll kick his ass on your sheer enthusiasm.
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“Negative. White women prefer a powerfully-built man. They just don’t like fat men, which is what many men who go on extended see-food “bulks” become in an attempt to gain muscle.”
I guess all the skinny hipster/rocker type dudes walking around with hot girls must be an optical illusion.
“Buffed-out or fat?”
Buffed out.
“It should be obvious that you have muscle in any shirt even if you’re lean, otherwise, you don’t have much muscle.”
If you wear a lot of layers or if you wear baggy clothes, this isn’t true.
“This is guido advice. Yes, muay thai will help in an actual fight, but the best idea is avoiding fights in the first place.”
I was just responding to what Roissy said about getting to a strength level where you can “take” the average man.
If you want to learn to fight, then it helps to study a real fighting system.
Obviously, you should always avoid getting into a fight, but in some cases, it isn’t always avoidable, especially if the dude wanting to fight you is a bit drunk.
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A post about yoga has turned into a fight about fighting.
lolzlzlolz
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I wear glasses and in my last two serious confrontations I used them as a sign that I’m about to fight by removing them and putting them away slowly.
The first time my face was calm like sunday morning as I looked at the guys (yes, there were two of them) and I put them on the roof of my car. It was a parking lot altrication. The second time I had a stone-faced ‘you wanna fuck with me?’ look and I put them in my shirt breast pocket.
In both cases the douches backed off.
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lozlzllzlz
this reminds me of anothe rtsory
one time a girl told me taht i wouldn’t be able to hang in yoga
i was a vasristy atheleye in college and high school lzozlzllzlz
so i told her that i won the competivie statewide yoga competition in elementary school, and that i would kick her ass in it.
she goes, “yoga is not competitive!”
“omfg,” i say, “anything with girls and mats is by definition highly competititive lolozzllzlz.”
heoroduts said that war is the father of all men, and as the trojan war was launched after a beauty contest when venus warded paris heln of troy lzozlzlzlzl and as aeneas was persecuted by juno’s jelously that she lost teh beuaty contest lzzolzlzozloo so it is that women are the grandmothers of us all, as the mothers of our fatehrs–war.
women are far more violent than men.
generally a men will wiat for you to come at him or look at him wrong or stop minding your own business.
with women though, 50,000,0000 fetuses were just minding tehir own business, brough into existence by a women;s choice and the mericless harpy banshees had them ripped out and flushed down the toilet in the neocns preemptive war on teh unborn lzozlzlzlzlz
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^^^^
is it any wonder teh feds fund feminisms?
think of how much more efficient it was to have 50,000,000 kiled by women, than it owuld have been to hire armies to kill one percent of that lzozlzlzozlzlzl
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From Yoga to fight tactics – that’s a relief.
It’s amazing how some women are drawn to all this new-age stuff – yoga, acupuncture, astrology and the like. It may make excellent game to take advantage of this, but it’s pretty depressing. I’ve known a hundred ladies obsessed with astrology, but only two who loved astronomy.
” IT’S GONNA BE FUN – LET THE FUCKING BLOWS RAIN DOWN”
Unless he’s got a knife. That’s why it’s good to learn a practical martial art, such as Krav Maga, which can help in these scenarios.
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not much evidence to support this claim.
OK, bro, look at the pics from any pool party – Rehab before it sucked, Wet Republic, etc. Look at the muscle guys. How many are with ugly chicks?
Go to a site like Hot Chicks With Douche Bags. Well, they are with hot chicks, aren’t they? And these guys have no game at all. It’s all looks.
My buddy is a muscle guy – not bodybuilder big, but definitely big. When we go out, it’s like being in another world. He gets so much attention because of his build. I do, too, but to a much lesser extent.
I personally can best be described as “fit.” My build is more like an underwear model. It works to my advantage in substantial ways.
a lot of guys, especially white guys, are built like underwear models but vanish into the aether of perceived low-t skinnyness as soon as they put clothes on.
Not true. If you get the right fabric – really high grade cotton – then your shirts hang in a form-fitting-but-not-tight manner. That’s where the fashion issue comes in.
I have to pay extra attention when shopping. Most clothing will be too baggy around my waist – since I’m a 31″ waist, and a 46 suit jacket. Some shopping around, it’s absolutely obvious that I work out – even when clothed.
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Fair dues to GBFM – he’s on the side of the angels when it comes to matters of life. Even though, it’s not really the neocons who are to blame.
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@Roissy et all…
“”I used my backup opener instead, an example of the “ever notice” school of openers.
“Ever notice how people compete to have the largest yoga mat?”
She stared blankly at me for a second, before my word jumble organized itself into meaning for her. Then she smiled.
“No, that’s not something I’ve noticed.”
“Yours looks like it’s 12 feet long. You could roll that thing out like a red carpet.”
She chuckles. “Well, it’s not that long, and I’m not tall enough to need a 12 foot mat.”””
This is a great post and example of:
1) neg opener
2) demonstrating Higher Value
3) Push/pull
4) IOI/IOD
This approach can work with any activity…aerobics/dance etc.
I’m gaming a young girl in my Latin dance class.
Me: What is your favorite music?
Her: I don’t really listen to music.
Me: That’s been evident throughout the evening.
Her: laughs, punches arm, “come on!” You were lucky to meet me after I bumped into you that night on the dance floor.
Me: Lucky would be me winning the lottery…These dance lessons aren’t free…
Her: laughs…tension…’you’re not very nice’ but sticks around staring at me…more IOI’s etc etc… big hug…kisses on cheeks
Roissy example:
“No, that’s not something I’ve noticed.”
= Shit Test….
Tension in Roissy’s example is a key component of building up that attraction.
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in particular, the notion that size is dispositive — in a street fight, of all things — betrays “editor’s” lack of experience with street fights and/or with any milieu where men are actually schooled in how to fight.
Get real, keyboard warrior.
I’ve trained MMA and BJJ for years. Having muscles means not having to fight. Size matters.
In fact, very few people who train MMA would be able to handle themselves in a street fight. Most are white belt spazzes who quit after six months. The odds of finding someone who can handle himself as an MMA-style fighter in the street is way less than 1%.
We’re not in UFC 1, where the average bar hopper is Royce Gracie. Most guys are average schelps who haven’t even been in a fight in their entire adult lives. In such instances, size, strength, and animal aggression triumph.
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Mike,
In relation to the whole clothing thing:
An increasingly viable option in relation to suits and shirts would be to get made-to-measure
Prices are getting really cheap these days, they can be measured in the west, while produced and shipped from Taiwan or other Asian countries, for a few hundred dollars.
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I guess all the skinny hipster/rocker type dudes walking around with hot girls must be an optical illusion.
They have other angles they exploit. I have skinny friends who do very well with women. They all have well-honed game.
If you wear a lot of layers or if you wear baggy clothes, this isn’t true.
Baggy clothes are guido, but this is still untrue. Women can see your neck, traps, butt, and legs even through layers unless you’re walking around in snowboarding pants. So can everyone else. The neck and traps, in particular, usually give it away.
If you want to learn to fight, then it helps to study a real fighting system.
It can also instill a sense of false confidence in a situation involving real violence. Thai fighters and jiu jitsu players fight in rings one-on-one with referees and rules and weight classes. The referee steps in if you get knocked out/choked out to prevent further damage. This doesn’t happen in a real situation and if you get knocked out, you just have to hope your attacker(s) doesn’t/don’t keep stomping your head.
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An increasingly viable option in relation to suits and shirts would be to get made-to-measure
This is good advice. Personally, my m.o.: Armani suits from an outlet mall. Then get it altered at my tailer.
My initial comment was in re: casual clothes – blue jeans, t-shirts, flannels.
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– “Thai fighters and jiu jitsu players fight in rings one-on-one with referees and rules and weight classes. The referee steps in if you get knocked out/choked out to prevent further damage. This doesn’t happen in a real situation ….”
That’s why finding a martial art with practical applications is important. I took up Krav Maga after being attacked in a fish and chip shop – I did ok (through luck and rage) but against a competent opponent rather than a drugged-out wanker, I would have been in a very bad way.
First thing I learned in training is how to avoid, how to duck and how to run. Fighting should be avoided at all reasonable cost. The Krav Maga is a pretty useful system, rather than a sport, but again I hope never to have to find out how effective it is.
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Thai fighters and jiu jitsu players fight in rings one-on-one with referees and rules and weight classes
Eh, yes and no.
Most people who train and *stick* with MMA or BJJ have been in plenty of street fight situations.
It’s the posers who come in for six months and fight who get stole one.
Most people are posers.
I, personally, would *not* want to fight a BJJ purple belt (5 years of training to get a purple) on the street. The odds are very high that he’d know what he was doing in a street situation. I say that as someone who has been in plenty of fights – on the street, and in a ring, and in a cage. A BJJ purple is going to present problems to anyone. Even a street tough guy is likely to get a serious beat down.
But how many guys can stick to anything for five years – let alone something as demanding as BJJ.
Thus, it’s not a legitimate real-world concern. Fun blog comment fodder, but not something that’s going to come up in real life. (Except in parts of Orange County, California, where it seems that every guy at the bar is a purple.)
If, however, you see a guy with a thick neck and cauliflower ears, you’d be well-advised to be cool with him.
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i wonder how often Game completely backfires for “betas”. like the beta character in In the Company of Men who ends up the one suffering. if game is about “faking it till u make it”, seems a lot of guys in the faking it stage might regret pulling higher than their status.
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mike In fact, very few people who train MMA would be able to handle themselves in a street fight. Most are white belt spazzes who quit after six months. The odds of finding someone who can handle himself as an MMA-style fighter in the street is way less than 1%.
by “milieu where men are schooled to fight” i didn’t mean an mma gym. i was thinking more of, say, a playground behind a pupuseria in hempstead village, full of kids whose parents crawled into the united states through an abandoned sewer pipe in order to escape military death squads.
but, yeah.
i thought this distinction would be implied clearly enough by the preceding words about stepping outside the friendly confines of yuppyville.
I took up Krav Maga after being attacked in a fish and chip shop
what precipitated this attack?
i ask only because fish and chips is one of the few dishes delicious enough to maim for.
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“what precipitated this attack?
i ask only because fish and chips is one of the few dishes delicious enough to maim for.”
The attacker seemed to agree – I got served before he did, and he took offence at this. I believe he was on some kind of drugs.
Oddly enough, the haddock and chips emerged unscathed from the incident, since they were wrapped in newspaper.
Wish I could say it was all about defending the honour of a 10, but such is life.
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IMO google the Little Black Book of Violence and read it, or talk to some long time cops, combat vets (if they’re willing to talk about it at all), or ER docs if you want to know about violence.
It’s not like the movies. It’s really easy to break a hand or two even if you “win” a fight without weapons being involved, you could wind up in jail or prison very easily, and there are no rules.
My favorite quote regarding fist fighting was from a ranger west point grad combat vet friend who, when asked by someone else what the best tactics were to use if you had to fight someone hand-to-hand replied, “why the fuck would you fight someone, why would you fight him without a weapon, and why wouldn’t you ambush him if you had to engage him at all?” And his west point ring was still fucked up from an enemy near miss that nearly took his head off but got the ring instead, so I am inclined to listen to him.
Knives, pistols, flashlights, bandannas with heavy weights attached, and other weapons that surround you daily whether you know it or not are way too common to make fighting attractive in real life, unless you are a serious (e.g. non-Starbucks on Saturdays in Old Town Alexandria) biker, gangbanger, or you honestly just don’t give a fuck. In which case you probably have a record already or will have one sooner or later.
But I can say that western sport boxing, bjj, and/or muay thai are great ways to get into shape if nothing else from personal experience. And the more serious people I know who are into martial arts are also into yoga for the physical training aspects and not for the pussy potential. That takes care of itself if you’re in shape, confident, and not a social retard.
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“i wonder how often Game completely backfires for “betas”. like the beta character in In the Company of Men who ends up the one suffering. if game is about “faking it till u make it”, seems a lot of guys in the faking it stage might regret pulling higher than their status.”
What do you mean by backfire?
The worst that is going to happen when you first start applying game is that you will get a lot of rejection from girls since your approaches suck and your game is weak.
If you can lean to deal with the rejections, then there isn’t much of a downside to applying game.
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@ Lupo
Props on the Ogden link.
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Wish I could say it was all about defending the honour of a 10
eh. haddock is an eleven.
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as if we needed no further proof, the fact that the girls here dig johnny five is evidence that chicks dig assholes.
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>Why is it that Victim types always resort to a kind of Stalinism?
Are you stupid?
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I like to do my yoga whilst smoking a joint…for inner balance of course.
Editor-
“[editor: it’s good to have well-developed *lean* muscles (meatheadery not necessary) not to attract chicks (because as you note most girls don’t give a crap about big muscles once a minimum manliness threshold is reached)”
–too true. Beefy guys are such a turn off. Holding one’s own in a fight is all that is needed.
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Johnny Johnny I bet he’s real scrawny! He might cute but his feet smell like pew!
(Hi CC! Where you BB?)
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He might cute but his feet smell like pew!
sorry, the last one had a hairtrigger gag reflex. but kissing my feet is a good start.
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Here is a candidate for Beta of the Month:
Suzanne Corona, 41, was caught having sex with Justin Amend, 29, in a public park. Corona is a married woman and her husband is standing beside her and supports her despite her adultery. Her husband has a ponytail and looks like a complete pussy in that video clip.
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Gag reflex? Yeah, my poems tend to do that to the manly men here. However, outside of Roissy-Land my fans always jump up and down and yell more moRE MOOOOOORE!
Kissing my feet is a good start? Wait a minute! Where have I heard that one before?? Oh well, can’t remember, must not have been very important. *shrugs*
Johnny, you should start your own blog!
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I did yoga for years and the girls will come on to you as you will likely be the only non-gay male there. Play it very cool and be there for the many benefits of yoga (physical, mental, spiritual). Pussy is just one of the side benefits.
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Johnny 5 personally i prefer a variegated buffet. after a couple days of fucking some lithe-bodied white vegetarian 20 year old chick who takes bellydancing classes, i want to saddle up on an ink-black thick african goddess. then i want a freshly divorced older woman who fancies herself a late-blossoming amateur porn slut
😯
*DEAD FAINT*
Ladies
You can’t deny J5’s ways with words ladies. Whenever I read his comments, I feel as if I’m watching a movie.
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ahappinessexperiment
as if we needed no further proof, the fact that the girls here dig johnny five is evidence that chicks dig assholes.
Huh… I can’t call him an a-hole for sure but he is certainly a freak*.
*urban dictionary for freak
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[editor: it’s good to have well-developed *lean* muscles (meatheadery not necessary) not to attract chicks (because as you note most girls don’t give a crap about big muscles once a minimum manliness threshold is reached)”
I’ll cosign… I prefer a lean and more “natural” look with an interesting personality over a gym rat adonis type. Those guys are usually pretty dull.
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@ kaikou –
I’m not going to attack you. Full disclosure – I’m a gay man. I read the article and I am sure it is possible to raise healthy and well-adjusted kids in a same sex household. Hell, humans are pretty damn resilient and can thrive in all kinds of arrangements. God knows its preferable to living in an orphanage or foster home. I would rather have two loving lesbo moms than a psycho mom and an alcoholic deadbeat father.
I don’t know why I am holding out on this … but I still believe that the ideal arrangement for raising kids is a mother and father. I just don’t see why you would want to expose your kid to all the ridicule and discrimination that comes with having two daddies or two mommies.
I also think that nature has designed pretty specific roles for men and women … and that children need to understand what these are and be able to navigate the world that operates according to those roles. Can a lesbian mom teach her son how to fight? Can a gay dad teach his son about girls?
Note I did not say “society” has “socially constructed” these roles for us. It is nature that makes the mother the nurturer and it is nature that makes the man the breadwinner. Penis fits vagina. No fancy word games can counter that biologic fact.
idk… having a strong male role model and an emotionally stable nurturing mom seems to produce the most well adjusted kids, from my observations.
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i know a natural alpha with natural fighting proficiency. five foot six, played D1 baseball, bangs cute chicks constantly… even the six footers.
some kid stepped to him in a crowded manhattan bar – within a few seconds, posses had gathered. what does the kid do? headbutts the guy right at the top of the nose, floors him. a punch would have been slow enough to have calmer minds intervene (not enough time to leverage a knockout blow). who the fuck headbutts? he shouldn’t know how to do that, but it came naturally.
i grew up with a super beta who you wouldn’t want to tangle with necessarily. his domineering mother relegated him to an adolescence of bench pressing and heavy-bag slugging in the basement between furious masturbation sessions. smart engineering dude who can bench 3+ plates, not cut up but looks like a bulldog. it’s as if you can see the tan lines from his just-removed mullet.
but let me complete his profile: he planted a flag on the first girl who wet his dick twice in a row, eventually wifing her up and (hopefully) fathering a kid. beta-boy forsook virtually every last high school friendship to dedicate himself to his relationship. his now-wife prided herself, during his initial courtship, on the title of “blowjob queen”. though she didn’t rack up her bj’s with my crew members, probably a good dozen of my pals saw her naked the first (only) college summer she was in the mix.
to the point, who would win in a bar fight? the raging provider has all the measurables in the tale of the tape. ask me who i’m ducking, and i’m leaving the angry loser alone. i mean, maybe i squeak out the hard-fought victory and he decides to go virginia tech on my ass.
but put him against my alpha friend? while the beta is rolling up his sleeves and putting warpaint on his face, psyching himself up in the mirror with battle-cries, my alpha boy would probably just come up behind him and beer bottle his head, knocking his lights out.
not to say mma dudes can’t dance. i’m sure the successful mma fighters are a lot closer to the alpha description than the beta description, though.
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@ Seth, I agree with 90% of what you said. Glad were on the same page
Lean muscular men are the hottest.
J5 tells it how it is, gots to respect that.
So in this hot yoga, do girls go topless? I would only go if I could be topless.
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Twisting and turning are easier for thin girls. People like doing things they are good at. It is also very nice to have 60-90 minutes of dedicated time to sit or stand in front of large mirrors.
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So many great comments, so often. Hard to keep up. This one is fantastic:
“if men have been sent the wrong message that being a nice guy is the way to go, women have equally been sent the wrong message that staying in great shape shouldn’t be their first priority.” – A Happiness Experiment
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Roissy,
You saved my life. When my wealthy girlfriend left me due to mental illness that hobbled my work, I thought my life was over.
With game, I again have confidence in my work, married women tell me what their vaginas look like, women offer to have sex with me, fight for my attention, agree to go on dates with me even though they’re in LTRs. I’m not even afraid to tell off pretty women who strung me along for months. Who cares? Tons of other ones like me and want my attention. Who knew male happiness was simply a matter of being aware of human sexual goals? Well, I guess you did. Thanks again.
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Yoga flame!!!…. you know… I was just noticing this sort of thing lately, you always seem to capture the zeitgeist
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Another article that would be great to have a comment on: http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/05/seeking-arrangement-201005?printable=true
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Headbutt, my second favorite move in a fight. My favorite move? Don’t fight, it’s sweaty, uncomfortable and you have to touch another guy, ick.
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fuck this yoga, tai-chi, orientophile noise … between having to tolerate hours of mysticism crap to get a few minutes of online with some hot young thing and letting my genes fast track into reproductive oblivion .. i choose reproductive oblivion ..
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Tom — the author of that Vanity Fair piece is shown here, with a douchebag: http://guestofaguest.com/directory/melanie-berliet/23830/
I read the article. I couldn’t help but get the sense that if the rich guys had run some game, they might have been able to get in her pants. Instead, they were quite gameless.
I suspect their mostly transactional approach to the relationship is a major pussy dessicator.
I spent time today with an alpha male. It was amazing to see him: great posture and body language, great speaking and, despite being in his 50s, he probably fucks young women when he wants to. He doesn’t have a lot of money, and he’s nuts – but he definitely had game.
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Hey guys…tactical question here:
“””The light changes. Shit, time’s out.
She loiters for a a split second before stepping into the crosswalk, which makes me think it’s a mini-IOI to go for the number close. But it’s a split second too short, and she begins walking forward. Over her shoulder, she smiles and tosses out one last morsel.
“Well, good luck finding a less embarrassing mat.”
A taxi making a left turn nudges into the pedestrian zone, almost brushing up against her leg. She gets distracted, and the moment evaporates. I want to smash a cinderblock into the taxi driver’s face. But then that’s not very serenely yogic, is it?””
The situation is one I find myself in. The IOI’s are there…the attraction is there…then there’s a hestitation or some logistical problem and no number-close.
Can one pick up where one left-off if we meet up again somewhere?
Is a number close necessary if you know you’re going to meet up again or on a regular basis: class, school, social circle etc?
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@walawala
Is a number close necessary if you know you’re going to meet up again or on a regular basis: class, school, social circle etc?
You know, after my recent experiences gaming a truly outstanding woman, and pulling the AO and having it nearly blow up hard in my face, but also work at least once, I have to say:
Now, in that situation, this is what I’d do.
If this was a girl i was unlikely to ever meet again, but worth it – when you get some IOIs, milk it, and then: Go hard.
Think fast, rabbit: Go for the number right away. Find a good reason and make it stick. Find an irresistible shtick and to something totally against my rules under normal circumstances – give your number. Do it with that sharp look, that casual assurance, and make it about something you’ve just connected over.
You have nothing to lose. Might as well bite.
I’m thinking up all kinds of situations where hard, do-it-or-lose-it game can work.
I think a situation lights might do it. Maybe not.
But after the last month, I think direct and really hard game is the way to go. Brass balls. Own it.
I’m guessing less than 16% success. But do it enough, and it’s got to work enough to make it worth it with women you’d never see again.
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Roissy,
One more thing, SNL has this great demonstration of feminism as a sex selection strategy via the example of… dun, dun, dun… sexual harassment.
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Tantric yoga, not a good choice on a humid day but on a regular southern summer day of 98, not too humid, and no a/c its perfect.
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I’m against any discipline that idealizes veganism and pacifism, and villainizes those whose path is to keep the peace.
Yoga, the way most westerners practice it, is about deprivation as a lifestyle. Where I can understand why some people find it attractive, I also understand the parasitism rampant among those who adhere to such things.
I suppose that if I were male, I might like to shag some of them due to a kind of primal hunting instinct driving me to predate on the weak and the sick. I wouldn’t want to keep one though. I wouldn’t even want to hear one of them talking.
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@Nicole
You are stereotyping, and are grossly misinformed. You speak of radical adherents, few of which exist here or set up shop. Most practicing westerners have abandoned the spiritual, abstinence focused, monk-like yogi culture. That’s why it has become so popular in the past decade and change, it wouldn’t stick here otherwise.
The shift has refocused it as a way of staying fit, healthy, and chilled out – not as a way of absolving one’s self from base desires, or depriving oneself of anything. Please don’t speculate on things you know little of.
On that point… you are also not a man, so please spare us your prognostication of what you might do if you were one. It adds nothing to the discussion.
I could probably speculate on all of the wonderful things I would do if I were black, (you know – to help the ‘weak and sick’) but I’m not – so I spare you the diatribe.
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Why?
Roissy, are you allowing retarded folks to post on this forum now? I appreciate you going out of your way to give a helping hand to the mentally challenged but really, should commenter Gorbachev be allowed to comment? Really? Isn’t there some special race he has to go to instead?
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Speaking of MMA and physiques…
These guys:
would get raped by this guy
But – the average guy can’t fight for shit, and being strong and in shape will mean you can sort an average guy out.
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“I wouldn’t even want to hear one of them talking.”
Nicole’s making a pretty reasonable point, at least about how certain westerners become obsessed with bizarre systems, and that can be kind of off-putting.
Not knocking Yoga in particular.
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nicole: get your fat ass ugly face off the comments. I am trying to gain some information on here. I don’t give a flying fuck what your ugly fat ass thinks. shut the fuck up. thank you from everyone.
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I’m against any discipline that idealizes veganism and pacifism, and villainizes those whose path is to keep the peace.
This was actually my favorite comment on this entire thread.
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NFF, I doubt any information here can help you with your problem.
EastPole, whether or not one is an extreme adherent, the whole system revolves around depriving the body and controlling each and every function. There is some good in it, just as there is some good in just about any religious discipline, but one does not have to get too deep into Yoga before they are herded down the path of scary levels of deprivation.
The only big difference between western and Indian practitioners is that westerners get creepy Christian competitive about it. They become dogmatic and judgmental in an insane way.
…and if I were male, I would probably have a high enough sex drive to be willing to shag women I find gratingly annoying as nails down a chalk board. I see guys putting up with a lot of crap just to stay with a hot woman all the time, and don’t figure that I’d be so different. As a female, I’ve “been there, done that” and got the cool 3X yoga pants and a couple of cute salwar kameez sets.
I find dancing to be much more fun and much more affirming of my femininity. To each their own, but my opinion is that dancers tend to be healthier, just as bendy, and a lot less of a headache to be around.
They’re eating and burning the calories, not striving to be one of those people who doesn’t need food to live. Once you get deep enough into a relationship with a Yoga chick, she’ll start trying to convince you that you don’t really need sex.
…which technically, you don’t if you suppress that in yourself enough, but you are correct in one aspect of your criticism of my speculation. I couldn’t imagine the hell of being male and attached to a woman who thinks I’m defective for wanting sex. I speculate that I’d leave, but then I see guys going for exactly this type of woman all the time.
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The Indian yoga scene started after the westerners copied it lol
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Opener noted and looged into my memory. Thanks.
I am dating an older yoga instructor…38. Her body feels so good against mine.
The thing that hooked her is that I talked about karmic energy flowing through the body can be felt by another. I explained this is why it feels so good to embrace another.
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Also, consider the possibility that Yoga pants and tight pants are attractive on thin women. Outside of yoga few sports have occasion for women to wear flattering clothes that aren’t also somehow restrictive. running: see loose shorts and sports bra. The sport of yoga and i use the word sport loosely allows women to where less supportive and thus more attractive clothing.
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hey vasafaxa (vaginasexafaxmachinea) i think the mask u are wearing makes you look like a bird–a sexy brird with a watchful eye lzozlzlzlll woudl eb fun to dot your i’s if you ever neeed any grammr help from and eperteetet
expert
hey vaginasexafaxmachinea–have you ever seen what women run in? obviosuly not nor have you ever been running obviously. womenz run in tight shorts tight tights tight things lzozllzllzll
hey vaginasexafaxmachinea–have you ever seen what women play tennis in? short shorts lzozlzlzlzl short skirts tight tights lzozlzlzzll
hey vaginasexafaxmachinea–have you ever seen what women practice law in? short shorts lzozlzlzl short skirts lzozlzlzl tight tights lzozllzllzllz
you are a stupid stooopid annyong womenz lzozlzlzllz with theat feminime habit of ignoruing and refuting and opposing the ovbious truth jsut 2 get attention lzozlzlzll and sell some fax machines zlzozlzlzll
hy this isn’t yoga lzozlzlzlz:

hey this isn’t yoga lozlzlzl:
hey this sin’t yoga:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_h9tb1xl9LvY/S1zK_nuSUlI/AAAAAAAABIY/GjKaYbptJqw/s400/serena-cat-suit.bmp
lzozlzlz
take yoru bird mask off & maybe you will see better lzozlzlzlzl
hey this isn’t yoga:

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“yoga keeps the tatas perky and the ass deliciously smackable”
Anouk, you do yoga? let’s hang: I love perky and I smack good.
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nicole: lose weight and get a face transplant. nothing you say is of any value to anymore. who the fuck wants to know how to get old fat ugly women like you? You are the antithesis of what this blog aims to do. please shut the fuck up and stop clogging up the comments. go post on an oprah forum or something. what you say there might actually be appreciated. nobody gives a shit here.
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Gorb-
“Sheesh. Everyone has a blog now. I feel like I need to get one. It’s almost like not having a cellphone – it just looks weird.
And I remember when only foreign students with Daddy’s gold card had cellphones (the Brick).”
–ha, ha. Yes, please do start a blog! Also, we must be close in age, I remember when cell phones were for the rich only as well. Back in high school we would plan to all meet at someone’s house, and if someone didn’t show…we would never really know why until school the next day. One phone call was made to make plans…not twelve text messages sent….ah….the simple life. Of course this was also when people went on dates to bowling alleys, drive-in movies, and roller skating disco-type places.
Poly- yay! I’ll be over. 🙂
Joseph-
I can only offer perky up top, but the bottom brings some bass and the waist is tini-tiny. I love a good smacker, there is much skill involved in pressure application. (*blush* ) You in DC?
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I am a Yoga teacher. I invented Yoga. My girls are fit. They get fitter. They stay fit. My classes help them stay calm & not be so fucking emotional. You should thank me now for making a better brand of women.
What do I get out of this? Limitless numbers of eager, searching, glowing women in spandex competing for my attention.
Do Yoga. Get good. Open a studio. Someday you will be as Godly as me.
Yours,
The Texas
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@Nicole,
Your basic premise is wrong. Please refrain from making judgments about things you have no concept of, or using a slippery slope argument to make some kind of point. It’s very transparent.
‘The whole’ system of yoga, as you put it, does not revolve around depriving the body of anything – outside of stress and toxins, which it helps to release. You may be mistaking devout forms of Kundalini Yoga (which is admittedly a freak show), with what is commonly practiced in North American studios, which is for the most part just breathing and exercise. The vast majority of people who practice, and that includes whom I would consider serious practitioners, never cave into the folly of the repressive cultish behaviour you describe.
And yes, one would have to get very far down the paths of a select few disciplines (Kundalini – notably), before anything resembling the ‘scary deprivation’ registers.
“striving to be one of those people who don’t need food to live”
What the fuck?! I’ve forced myself to reread your post, as so little of it makes sense. You make sweeping judgments about people who do yoga, and then accuse them of being judgmental. It’s quite amusing, actually.
You realize that most people who practice yoga do it for health and wellness benefits, and not to find spiritual enlightenment, right?
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It is purely a class thing. There aren’t too many yoga classes being organized in section 8 housing or the trailer park. Its the same phenomenon as big college towns. When you filter all the girls out from lower socio/economic backgrounds, the percentage of hotties goes way up. I’m not saying this isn’t a sad fact, but its a fact nonetheless.
As the husband of a yoga participant, let me make one exception to the editor’s observation: expectant mother and post-natal yoga are also becoming big trends with young mothers. But it does tone them right back up in a few months.
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Sidewinder,
I think you might be right. I have two shopping centers I go to frequently. The one in the higher socio-economic area has much better looking women than the one in the lower socio-economic area. I always feel like I need to get all fixed up to go to the ritzier one.
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@Gorby
This new situation is younger girl, back to China after being away, excellent English, grew up abroad, cute, funny, sexy…really into me after a few meetings at our regular Latin dance party.
Lots of kino, negs…only one shit test so far, which I passed: Her: You’re lucky you bumped into me that night.
Me: Lucky would be winning the lottery…”
She followed me out, lots of sexual tension which I milked.
I never number closed or k-closed that night. I figured I’d milk it and wait to see what the next night held.
Too many of these chicks flake or lose interest, so I was acting out of self-protection than anything else.
I had said “I’m going out Friday, bring drinks…” she said ok.
So I plan to put her in the same state and then escalate it.
Social circle game is a bit tricky in Asia. If the girls don’t know each other…it works…if they do…you’re cut out of the tribe as a player.
I think this girl is a bit smarter and nicer than the rest of the mob.
My game needs a bit of calibration. We left when the attraction was high.
An over-eager move and that could undo the attraction which would mean I’d have to work harder to build it up.
The other benefit was that after I left the other day, she followed me out…all the other girls saw this and assumed I was banging her.
That works as a pre-selection and social proof.
Any wise words on calibration?
I don’t know that Nuclear Game is the right way on this one…what signs am I looking for that I haven’t already had?
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ww,
Nuclear game is needed to break through serious barriers, but you don’t have serious ones with this girl. Probably your best angle is that you and she share a level of sophistication the rest of the crowd doesn’t, because you are foreign and she grew up abroad.
Ramp up the witty banter, making it subtle enough that even with her excellent English she needs a little effort to keep up with you, that will make her feel good that she is sucessfully qualifying and will keep the frame established that she is trying to impress you. That also immunizes you against cockblocks from her Chinese friends because she can dismiss them as not able to see in you what she can.
Kiss close is OK if the IOIs increased during the evening, otherwise just number close, but be cool about it — give her your phone and say put your number in here, don’t justify yourself for wanting her number or explain why you want it. Nuclear game when you are otherwise doing well is too risky unless you have gotten nuclear IOIs.
(A nuclear IOI is an embarrassingly uncontrollable one — dampness between the legs, pokey nipples, being caught staring at you more than once.)
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I overgeneralized there — if you are experienced with it, nuclear game is not too risky because you know how to recover from an angry reaction, and how to tell whether it is just the ASD or a real misjudgement of her attraction to you. But if you are not experienced with nuclear game, save it for when you have strong indications it will work, or when you believe nothing else will work.
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Wow – I didn’t know every commenter on this site is a mixed martial artist or ultimate fighter. Please.
Fights usually stop before they’re started when a guy is built. Whether he is tough or not.
Furthermore, every girl has her type, but guys with muscles and size generally pull some of the hottest girls…. Protection, domination, etc. Its just the way it is.
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You don’t seem like a total dork, Gorby, but saying Dawkin’s is awesome is saying you’re a fucking moron. The man is a total joke.
Also, in Roissy’s situation, I would’ve done direct game.
When you have a major time constraint, play direct hard-ball. I often invent these time constraints just to not have waste time on banter I am not up for. I stole it from David D.
“Hey, can I ask you a question”
“Sure”
“Are you single?”
Sometimes yes, sometimes no… in this case, with a real time constraint, you say just you’ve got to go, you don’t want the conversation to end just because of that, you’re sure she’s got an exciting life/adventure stories to share, so let’s meet up some time for whatever…
Then you do coffee date – MAX 30 min. If it’s all cool, then you do drinks or if you’re aggressive, invite her for dinner.
With this routine, every successful coffee date always ended in sex a week later after I’d wined and dined her in the comforts of my pad.
Some times I skip the coffee and invite them over for “wine” right away, because “I’m busy, out all day – but will kicking back later. Join me”
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Any sociable, single extrovert girl will give you her number within 60 seconds of meeting you if those 60 seconds you show her you’re a cool, non-threatening, likable but also attractive and confident guy who goes after what he wants.
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FV,
Yes, but showing that is easier said than done for some people.
In walawala’s case he is already way past needing to show enough to justify getting a number, which is why I suggested he simply tell her to give him his number rather than ask her for it.
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@Fortitudine Vincimus
You don’t seem like a total dork, Gorby, but saying Dawkin’s is awesome is saying you’re a fucking moron. The man is a total joke.
Compared to whom? The man’s the clearest thinker on the subject of religion this century has yet produced. Jerusalem as the least enlightened place on Earth.
Not only not a moron- but an atheist of principles. And a great popularizer of evolutionary biology, alogn with being a great biologist.
Poster boy for the renaissance of reason.
So sincerely, fuck you.
Also, in Roissy’s situation, I would’ve done direct game.
I agree. I don’t think he had enough time. He misplayed it from the beginning: He knew he had 60 seconds. I think the situation caught him by surprise. If he’d expected it, he might have run more direct game. He sounds like the kind of guy who could pull it off.
When you have a major time constraint, play direct hard-ball. I often invent these time constraints just to not have waste time on banter I am not up for. I stole it from David D.
I used it on some occasions. Mediocre success, but any success is good.
With this routine, every successful coffee date always ended in sex a week later after I’d wined and dined her in the comforts of my pad.
Direct game seems to lend an air of power.
Some times I skip the coffee and invite them over for “wine” right away, because “I’m busy, out all day – but will kicking back later. Join me”
You need major DHV to be able to pull it off, though. Not enough time to seduce by charms, so you need something natural (super fit/hot works well).
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In todays no-rules-continious-auction-meat-market women have to stay in shape. Their physical attractiveness is the one chip they have in the game. Since there is nothing short of plastic surgery they can do to change their looks, the only thing left is to try and keep what they have. Women’s tendancy to do yoga seems to grow as they hit the 35 mark. Woman that age and older start their inevitable slide, it already has started, into oblivion within the next 10 years.
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@Walawala,
This new situation is younger girl, back to China after being away, excellent English, grew up abroad, cute, funny, sexy…really into me after a few meetings at our regular Latin dance party.
Use lots of Salsa game. Physical. No words. Don’t be sleaze; be push-pull, accidental, swing in and be tight and then act casual, as if you don’t care. Squeeze and then act like it doesn’t matter.
This is gold. Gets women irresistibly wet. Never have to say a word. You have the bets Kino in the world: Reinforce it. Get a solid Dance dynamic with her: she’ll get taste for your sexuality before you ever get there. But push-pull.
Lots of kino, negs…only one shit test so far, which I passed: Her: You’re lucky you bumped into me that night.
Me: Lucky would be winning the lottery…”
She followed me out, lots of sexual tension which I milked.
I never number closed or k-closed that night. I figured I’d milk it and wait to see what the next night held.
Try this from my recent experience. Wait until you build the sexual tension high; lots of dance; become the guy she seeks out to dance with, who she likes to touch.
Then, when the tension is high (you can afford to wait), and you’re buddies – not too long, but close enough – go in for it. Not quite in public; but public enough. Then back off, smile, and walk away from it.
Do what I did with PCG. See if it works.
Too many of these chicks flake or lose interest, so I was acting out of self-protection than anything else.
Walk away and seem disinterested for a bit once you go in: Push away. Then let her pull you back. The next time you dance, fee her body’s reaction. You’ll see.
I had said “I’m going out Friday, bring drinks…” she said ok.
You dance, you don’t need the hanging out and flash. Use dance. It’s 10x more powerful. You know that.
Social circle game is a bit tricky in Asia. If the girls don’t know each other…it works…if they do…you’re cut out of the tribe as a player.
Yeah, you need to be careful of that. Watch out for the public thing. Use it carefully.
An over-eager move and that could undo the attraction which would mean I’d have to work harder to build it up.I>
Wait for the kino, and then TAKE it. Don’t negotiate.
The other benefit was that after I left the other day, she followed me out…all the other girls saw this and assumed I was banging her.
That works as a pre-selection and social proof.
Always good.
I don’t know that Nuclear Game is the right way on this one…what signs am I looking for that I haven’t already had?
Go hard at the right moment. Calibrate it right- timing is key. Once you ram your foot in the door, hesitation will kill you.
Inner game: You have the right to be there. Just act like that.
In media, this is how it is: Just look like you belong.
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ww,
Gorb’s advice is better than mine, I forgot that you would be dancing — that’s super-kino, and justifies going nuclear if things heated up.
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G, where should we look for updates when you get around to them?
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“You don’t seem like a total dork, Gorby, but saying Dawkin’s is awesome is saying you’re a fucking moron. The man is a total joke”
Facepalm. You’re a tard.
Brilliant men like Dawkins are always going to be misunderstood and reviled by twats.
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Gorbachev: “And a great popularizer of evolutionary biology, alogn with being a great biologist.”
Dawkins is a third rate assclown who wrote a popular book. He isn’t by any stretch of the imagination anything resembling “a biologist.” His position at Oxford (which came from the good fortune of having written a popular science fiction book) was as a “professor for public understanding of science.” He’s actually a philosopher of science; one who espouses a laughably stupid form of evolutionary biology. Read David Stove’s “Darwinian Fairytales” to disabuse yourself of Dawkins cleverness. His atheism is also of a particularly obnoxious evangelical variety: he has actually come out and said that teaching kids to believe in the holy ghost is worse than sexually molesting them (he’s apparently been molested himself).
As for all you MMA tough guys … what are you going to do when I hose you down with pepper spray or belt you upside the head with a lock in a sock? I’ve had some MMA type training; kick boxing, arnis, BJJ. You know what? Big guys often win over well trained small guys. And in a street situation, really; don’t be a dummy -you can walk away from most things.
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John (Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt) how nice of you to report what everyone thinks. You do realize however, that were it true, it would only validate my arguments as to the general sheepitude of humans, don’t you?
I am aware that I am fat, and according to those vocal enough to comment on my looks, ugly. These things are irrelevant to my point. I am not like some other girls here, in that it matters not to me if every poster here thinks I’m hideous. I only have one vagina, and it only needs one cock at a time, and that position is currently filled. You and anyone else who thinks I’m hideous are welcome to fall off the face of the earth…or to take care that all the hot chicks you’re currently chasing will be my age someday.
…and when they are, unless you intend to keep a brisk rotation, you will hope that you are as well tended to as my man.
Hot on a harpy is like jewelry on a pig.
EastPole, I already know the slogans. The reality is something else entirely. These “toxins” yoga chicks are avoiding apparently don’t include soy, hydrogenated vegetable oils, or emotional vampirism.
Check yourself.
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LL and Gorb,
Dawkins’s contributions to evolutionary biology are important and deep, though in some cases unfruitful, and he is a very good writer.
His writings on atheism, however, are not up to the quality of his scientific work. In those writings, he fails to engage the most serious arguments for theism and misrepresents and weakens the ones he does engage.
This is my evaluation, as someone whose Ph.D. is in logic, of the quality of Dawkins’s reasoning. I am not, on this forum, going to get into the question of theism vs. atheism, or say what I think of Dawkins’s conclusions (you can argue badly to a true conclusion).
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Nicole – you have an unobjective bias and have so far failed to present a rational argument. Please abstain from polluting the forum.
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EastPole, are you denying that practitioners of Yoga do not idealize veganism and pacifism?
…that those in the west are not among the most vocal and prolific promoters of polluting everything from bread to butter flavored popcorn with soy?
…that they are not largely responsible for pushing forward the partially synthetic diet that wrecked my thyroid?
Damn right I’m biased.
Tool.
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Crap…Shouldn’t type while sculpting. That should be, “EastPole, are you denying that practitioners of Yoga idealize veganism and pacifism?”
Seriously. You haven’t actually refuted anything I’ve said. You’re just upset that I disagree that it’s a good thing.
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I swear, it’s like talking to a child.
Some yoga practitioners you know may ‘idealize’ veganism and pacifism, but it doesn’t mean they all do, nor can it be deducted that one is linked to the other.
You know… correlation does not mean causation?
Are you really blaming yoga for irresponsible food policy? Could this get any more far fetched? Try ‘buy America’ agrocorps and their lobby groups, not your local ashtanga studio. Greed drives what’s in your food, not anyone’s ‘kumbaya’ fantasy.
I get it, you have health problems and are looking to blame someone. Try taking responsibility for it, as opposed to pointing the finger at people who make you feel insecure.
It is certainly clear why you have anger issues. Thanks for making yourself look retarded, again.
At least GBFM’s trolling is entertaining.
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I don’t need to deny anything you say, because none of it is coherent. You seem to be under the impression that anyone who practices yoga is in some abstinent vegan pacifist cult, and is responsible for your wrecked thyroid.
You fail to establish an argument for why yoga practice, for the sake of physical strength & flexibility, as well as mental health, is actually bad for you.
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Well, EastPole, I’m sure I could find some few Christians who don’t believe that anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is going to hell, but one wouldn’t be guilty of stereotyping to say that this is generally true.
…and I don’t blame Yoga for my health problems, but that gaggle of goofballs is marching merrily along with the corporations in whose interest it is to herd people away from real food. So as far as I’m concerned, they are part of the problem.
As far as my anger issues, at least I can admit to mine. I do get angry at people why try to sell me a scam. You just oscillate between victim and aggressor, confused about which one you actually want to be.
…which is exactly what annoys me about western Yoga people. Someone disagrees with you, and you go into piss-n-moan mode as if you’re going to “win” by repeatedly claiming the other is wrong, and that you’re being misjudged, despite the obvious facts.
I noticed how you took the judgmental bait. There’s not a thing wrong with critical thinking, and a reasonable amount of judgmentalism. What’s wrong is when you take it so far that you can’t see a reasoned argument even when it’s been spelled out for you.
…and I’m not here to entertain you. I’m here to engage in a conversation, and share my opinion. We could argue all day about my opinion, but it’s not going to change.
Yoga people creep me out.
You’ve done nothing to change that opinion.
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nicole: Don’t you fucking get it? Everyone except yourself thinks that you are a fat ugly worthless piece of shit. Why is that so hard for you to understand. Look in the fucking mirror you hideous monster. Why the fucking hell would any guy take anything you say seriously or put any credence into your opinions? On a scale of 1-10 you are a negative million. You have no redeeming value as a human being and you are the perfect poster monster for why mothers should abort their kids. Your grotesque face should be on billboards all across the world in order to make sure that repulsive vile creatures like your kind never see the Earth.
Now, please shut the fuck up so people can actually read the comments without comments. Thank you from everyone.
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“hey this isn’t yoga lozlzlzl:
http://www.sportsillustrated.co.za/files/2010/01/Venus-Williams.jpg”
This pic explains why yoga chix beat marathon chixwithdix.
If a girl runs more than 6 miles at a time there’s probably a problem.
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EastPole, Yoga is prayer. Like its Christian counterpart, getting on your knees and dialing up a deity is not necessarily bad for you, but performing the act means that you believe that God is Santa Claus, and going to save you from nature.
Yoga doesn’t have a monopoly on stretching and breathing exercises. A person can get as much or more out of Tae Kwon Do without the creepy parts and passive aggressive dogma.
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my bad. i copied wrong link. meant this one. lesson: tennis good, marathons bad.
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Folks,
Dawkins is a pretty good writer on biology. He is also a walking embarrassment to the atheist cause.
With his arrogance, blind faith, and hatred for people with different beliefs to himself, he would have made a marvellous Ayatollah.
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Jingleheimer, get over me.
Really. A woman as fat and ugly as I am shouldn’t be eliciting so much emotion from your supposedly superior self.
Go on and be superior and find better things to think about and post about than fat ugly women.
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Cap’n Bob,
Atheism is not a cause at all. Its actually just epistomological rationalism, i.e. you don’t believe in the truth of something unless there is more evidence than not that the proposition is true. Famous atheists have tried to explain this using various examples, but the easiest to grasp is the corvette orbiting pluto in space example: no one can prove that there isn’t a corvette orbiting pluto, but without evidence, no one should believe that to be the case.
I realize there are athiests like Dawkins who are trying to sell books by riling up religious people, but a rejection of deism is really a pretty simple logical exercise.
[editor: dawkins either doesn’t understand or refuses to confront the argument that religion serves as guardrails for less self-motivated people to toe the ethical and moral line. what’s to stop the teeming orc hordes from having their way with your bounty if not for a supernatural agency to help keep them in check?]
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You have not presented a single reasoned argument, merely a babble of incoherent emotionally charged gibberish, generalizations and misguided judgments. That’s fine if you just want to shoot your mouth off, but to mistake this for critical thinking is laughable.
I care not to change your opinion about whether you find ‘yoga people’ (a homogenous and coherent group, clearly) creepy or not. Now you are backpedalling, which is fine by me. A far different tune from your earlier statement that MOST yoga practitioners practice deprivation as a lifestyle.
Let me break it down for you:
– Doing yoga is not bad for you, quite au contraire. As physical exercise, it has countless benefits as briefed above
– Not everyone who practices yoga subscribes to it as dogma, and follows obscure tenents about serpents at the root of your spine, chakra energy, and other BS.
– Most western practitioners do it to supplement their existing work-out regiment as a way of gaining strength, flexibility and balance.
Following your woman logic, I could tell you that I find most black people emotionally unrestrained, thuggish and lazy. You have also done nothing to convince me otherwise, but I clearly know better than to base my opinion on extreme ends of a spectrum.
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“editor: dawkins either doesn’t understand or refuses to confront the argument that religion serves as guardrails for less self-motivated people to toe the ethical and moral line. what’s to stop the teeming orc hordes from having their way with your bounty if not for a supernatural agency to help keep them in check?”
His argument is that when you add up all the gains of social order and cohesion, and compare them to the social losses, its a net loss. I wouldn’t know how to make that calculation, but its hard to argue that irrational ideologies have really ever contributed a net gain, whether they be religious or secular.
But the bigger point is that this calculation is completely irrelevant to the question of whether there is sufficient evidence to logically support a belief in a diety. Even if believing in a god were to lead to complete human utopia, that doesn’t make the existence of that god any more likely. The societal by-products of a religion are not a valid reason to believe its inherent truth any more or less.
[editor: right, i’m not arguing that the guardrails theory is pertinent to the god question. what i am saying is that dawkins’ zealous atheism may blind him to certain positive externalities resulting from religious belief. now i know not all religions are created equal (islam is a good example of a religion with almost zero redeeming qualities), but christianity does serve to keep down violence levels in european societies, at any rate:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1561050.php/German-study-claims-devout-Islamic-youth-more-violence-prone
The more devout a young Muslim male in Germany is, the more likely he is to resort to violence, according to a federally financed study seen Saturday by the German Press Agency dpa. …
It found that young people who were intensely Christian were less likely to be violent than the average.
***
does dawkins drop the hammer blow as hard on islam and buddhism as he does on christianity, or is he your garden variety leftie whose bravery at staring down the lies of religion stop with shitting on jesus, and go no farther?]
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@polymath –
Updates, I’ll post, … on, … where do I post them?
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EastPole, your undies are in a knot for a reasoned argument, when I’ve repeatedly stated that I am giving my opinion based on my observations.
The onus is on you to explain how my opinion and observations are somehow inaccurate.
As yet, you’ve failed to do that.
You haven’t said anything that isn’t in the sham orientation pamphlets, which leads me to believe that you know very little about Yoga.
In case you don’t know, it is a form of worship, and the exercise is just the side benefits. All the western co-opting of it doesn’t change what it is, or what people end up doing when they stick with it: getting a guru and becoming basically Hindu, but without any real understanding of that family of belief systems.
Perhaps you’ve met yogis who convinced you that there’s no connection between the exercise and the religion, but you’ve been lied to.
That doesn’t make me incoherent or suffering from “woman logic”. That just makes you a sucker.
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EastPole: The practice of asanas has a different purpose than physical exercise. The purpose of practicing dynamic asanas is to prepare you to be able to have a both stable and relaxed seat, so that you can sit comfortably, with a strong and relaxed spine, strong core support (especially from the pelvic floor and the lower abdominals) and an open upper body where the breathing apparatus can work smoothly. When this achieved you can start the seated practices of Pranayama and meditation.
“(sthira sukham asanam)
* sthira = steady, stable, motionless
* sukham = comfortable, ease filled
* asanam = meditation posture (from the root “as”, which means “to sit”)
Steady and comfortable: The two essential characteristics of the sitting posture for meditation are that it must be:
* Steady, stable, motionless
* Comfortable, or filled with ease”
“The means of perfecting the posture is that of relaxing or loosening of effort, and allowing attention to merge with endlessness, or the infinite.
(prayatna shaithilya ananta samapattibhyam)”
“From the attainment of that perfected posture, there arises an unassailable, unimpeded freedom from suffering due to the pairs of opposites (such as heat and cold, good and bad, or pain and pleasure).
(tatah dvandva anabhighata)”
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Nicole: Yoga is not a religion. It is one of the six darshanas, which is most often translated as philosophies:
“the “Six Philosophies” (ṣad-darśana), all of which cite Vedic authority as their source:[4][5][6]
* Nyaya, the school of logic
* Vaisheshika, the atomist school
* Samkhya, the enumeration school
* Yoga, the school of Patanjali (which provisionally asserts the metaphysics of Samkhya)
* Purva Mimamsa (or simply Mimamsa), the tradition of Vedic exegesis, with emphasis on Vedic ritual, and
* Vedanta (also called Uttara Mimamsa), the Upanishadic tradition, with emphasis on Vedic philosophy.”
This is a bit like the different ancient Greek schools of philosophy (stocism, cynism, epecurianism and so on)
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“Its actually just epistomological rationalism, i.e. you don’t believe in the truth of something unless there is more evidence than not that the proposition is true. ”
But Sidewinder, that argument can equally be used to reject the absence of a Creator. I choose not to believe that the Universe came about by pure chance, until I am presented with more evidence that this propositionis true.
I believe that the answer to the theist/atheist question is basically unanswerable. I have my own religious views, but those are basically matters of faith, rather than logic.
But that does not mean that it is irrational to believe in a Creator, any more than it is irrational to refuse to believe in a Creator.
That’s why atheism is as much of a faith based system as is theism. Agnosticism is probably the most rational approach [though it is not my own]
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Ironically Dawkins doesn’t seem to get that evolutionary forces are what paved the way for religious belief.
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By the way, if there is no God, then there is no absolute standard of morality. Just some social conventions, as per Roissy’s point.
And one thing that amuses me about the New Atheists – they display a distinct reluctance to propose alternate structures, or to consider the consequences of a global “conversion” to atheism.
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On Dawkins (amazing the tangents)
@Polymath,
His writings on atheism, however, are not up to the quality of his scientific work. In those writings, he fails to engage the most serious arguments for theism and misrepresents and weakens the ones he does engage.
– Basic thesis of Dawkins: There’s no evidence for God. The Delusion is a net massive negative for the human race. It’s a legacy of a often useful but fundamentally faulty reasoning/pattern recognition module in the brain.
– There’s no need for Atheists to engage the subtle arguments for Theism because: Theism is irrational and contemptible.
Dawkins reverses the usual Atheist position:
It’s not up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God.
It’s up to the religious to prove their case using evidence and carefully reasoned and provable arguments based on evidence, all of which must be testable.
If the religions can’t do this, they’re not worth the intellectual time of day, and the religious are to be pitied and led out of self-imposed delusion and ignorance.
Mollycoddling them isn’t going to do them any favours.
He dismisses the more convoluted and complex arguments because it’s not worth the time to debate them: Religion and superstition are a priori unable to substantiate even the most basic of claims of any nature. Their convoluted internally inconsistent logic is therefore irrelevant.
Dawkins: Religions are entirely irrational belief systems that cause more bad than good; they appeal to negative elements in the human psyche and are basically social disorders and psychological problems. Almost all religious behaviours or methods of belief, in any other sphere, would be considered a psychological disorder by everyone – not just psychologists. But when it comes to religion, we’re supposed to respect them. Dawkins feels that this is absurd.
@Cap’n Bob
Dawkins is a pretty good writer on biology. He is also a walking embarrassment to the atheist cause.
With his arrogance, blind faith, and hatred for people with different beliefs to himself, he would have made a marvellous Ayatollah.
Arrogance: He admits this himself. Doesn’t make him wrong.
Hatred: He shows no hatred for the religious: just pity. Hatred is a preserve of the religious and ideological.
Blind faith: He has no blind faith at all, none: He asks for evidence. Show me. Everything he writes illustrates the opposite of blind faith. “Prove it – Test it – Demonstrate it”. If you can’t, it’s bunkus.
He just asks the religious: Show Me. And the religious can’t. They reverse this situation and claim that this is a kind of virtue by self-definition (“Faith”). Dawkins calls them out on this.
@Sidewinder
Exactly.
Atheism is not a cause at all. Its actually just epistomological rationalism, i.e. you don’t believe in the truth of something unless there is more evidence than not that the proposition is true.
IE, evidence-based reason. The very cornerstone of the entire modern world – in all of its good and bad aspects.
Religion has never helped in any intellectual endeavour, aside from record-keeping during the dark ages. Everything that religion has done has been in spite of itself.
Famous atheists have tried to explain this using various examples, but the easiest to grasp is the corvette orbiting pluto in space example: no one can prove that there isn’t a corvette orbiting pluto, but without evidence, no one should believe that to be the case.
And Dawkins just refuses to fight theism on its own turf.
It’s a good argument: Intellectually, why should he engage theists? Why shouldn’t theists be obliged to prove their positions, using evidence and reason?
We give way too much credence to BS.
Dawkins: Religion, on an intellectual level, deserves no respect at all. Nothing about it is based on anything like observable or demonstrable fact. “Truth” plays no role in religion, whatever “truth” means.
I realize there are athiests like Dawkins who are trying to sell books by riling up religious people, but a rejection of deism is really a pretty simple logical exercise.
And Dawkins comes from this perspective. Instead of trying to justify everything, he asks: Wait, why are we trying to prove the non-existence of God and the irrational nature of superstition and religion?
The onus should be on the religious to factually prove their case using evidence and testable hypotheses.
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@Cap’n Bob
But Sidewinder, that argument can equally be used to reject the absence of a Creator. I choose not to believe that the Universe came about by pure chance, until I am presented with more evidence that this propositionis true.
There’s no evidence whatsoever for a “creator” consciousness. Choosing not to believe in “chance creation” (since when are physical processes chance-based?) is based on no evidence.
Evidence suggests that there are physical rules and patterns and no intelligence is necessary to posit the creation of anything that exists today.
Your choice not to believe this is a denial of evidence.
I believe that the answer to the theist/atheist question is basically unanswerable. I have my own religious views, but those are basically matters of faith, rather than logic.
You illustrate the point: even your own religious ideas are based not on reason, intellect, or logic: they’re based on faith.
And Dawkins calls the religious out on this: Faith is a false, irrational virtue.
But that does not mean that it is irrational to believe in a Creator, any more than it is irrational to refuse to believe in a Creator.
You project your own argument for religion or a creator onto science. This one of the things Dawkins rails against: the projection of religious irrationality onto other “belief” systems.
That’s why atheism is as much of a faith based system as is theism. Agnosticism is probably the most rational approach [though it is not my own]
Dead wrong. Absolutely dead wrong. This is what pisses atheists off so much.
It’s the denial not just of logic, but reason from evidence.
Amazing Randi (and all scientists):
It’s not up to those who counter a claim to disprove it.
It’s up to those who *claim* something – especially something as unprovable as a Creator – to illustrate that this is fact (and not just subjective “truth”).
Fact – evidence – testing.
Nothing exists to suggest that there’s any truth, of any kind, in the supernatural claims of religion.
The only way the religious get around this is to falsely claim that “faith” (the denial of evidence and reason) is a virtue.
There’s nothing virtuous about non-thought.
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@
Cap’n Bob
By the way, if there is no God, then there is no absolute standard of morality. Just some social conventions, as per Roissy’s point.
This isn’t true at all. It’s one of the false theist arguments.
Anyway, theists can’t agree on how many angels can dance on the heads of pins; they definitely can’t agree on anything relating to morality.
But there’s a natural morality that appears to have emerged from evolution – as a social species, we have natural tendencies. Many of them work against each other. Some of them are contradictory.
But it’s a false argument, a shibboleth, that atheism leads to immorality. Usually, atheists have much stronger moral codes (and are generally better people) than any religious folk.
And one thing that amuses me about the New Atheists – they display a distinct reluctance to propose alternate structures, or to consider the consequences of a global “conversion” to atheism.
Not at all. There are lots of counter-structures.
I have a very strong moral code, and I’m a core atheist. I’m a social being; I need to get along with other people; I feel empathy, kindness, and love.
A belief in a Creator is unnecessary for any of these.
Religion is no longer needed to explain:
The origin of the world; the nature of the world; our relationships to each other;
It’s not necessary to maintain social order (neither was it very good at it, really);
And it’s not needed to maintain a morality.
In fact, everything religion (or any superstition) does, it does badly.
– It doesn’t explain or predict anything in the physical world
– It fails to maintain social order over time
– It causes severe ideological conflict: Oppression or war
– It denies the greatest Human gift, reason
– It denies valuable human qualities on a regular basis: empathy, altruism (through being judgmental), and the ability to relate to others without prejudice
– As a meme requiring survival, all religions are generally intolerant and breed conflict
A true measure of a society’s maturity is its ability to reject superstition and mythology and embrace reality and reason.
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Nicole – you use the ‘observation only’ disclaimer only once backed into a corner for failing to provide rational argument for your statements. You have not repeatedly stated that these are your opinions only, look above – it’s all right there:
‘despite obvious facts…’
‘can’t see a reasoned argument even when it’s been spelled out for you…’
Yeah, ok… you fail.
And the onus is not on me to prove how your observations are innacurate, nor would I pursue such endavour. Observations are completely subjective, and subject to your bias, which you also admit – see above: your whine about food, thyroid, etc.
So yes, you are not providing anyone with a reasoned argument but just shooting your mouth off on a subject you perceive to have expertise on, and incoherently so. Case closed.
And how can you possibly claim to know what happens when people stick with yoga? Not all yoga is the same, not all people are the same, not everyone pursues it for the same reason… Do you get it yet??
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@EastPole,
The Yogifascists are out to kill us and if your PC mindset refuses to let you see that you are a fool and probably a member of the Green Party.
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Gorbachev,
If I told you that the laptop that I am typing on just happened to be constructed without the intervention of any outside agency or force, I would be viewed with incredulity.
The atheist claim that the entire physical universe just happened to “come about” is likewise an extreme claim. And as such, the onus of proof lies with those making it.
Taking a physics point of view: There is a lot of evidence that the universe is “fine-tuned” for intelligent life: The value of the cosmological constant (which governs gravity) is at a setting that permits the formation of matter. Secondly, there is a matter/anti-matter assymetry (much more matter); as well as the universe having sufficient mass to permit complex structures such as galaxies, without having too much mass which would result in collapse. Thirdly, the presence of so many inverse-square laws.
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“But it’s a false argument, a shibboleth, that atheism leads to immorality. Usually, atheists have much stronger moral codes (and are generally better people) than any religious folk.”
Joseph Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot could not be reached for comment.
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Irrational Atheist is free.
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Gorbachev,
Human beings in general are a pretty scummy bunch, and to assume that our biological drives makes an adequate structure for morality is a pretty dangerous assumption (since we are descended from some of the less-pleasant Great apes).
This “imagine no religion” shit has been field tested in the USSR, Mao’s China and Cambodia, and the results have been horrific, as bad if not worse than any religious regime in history.
Given the performance of atheist regimes in the previous century, to claim that atheism makes you a better person than a believer is a pretty sweeping claim.
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EastPole, I use an “observation only” disclaimer because unlike yourself, I don’t need to know each and every single person on earth to make a reasonable generalization about a certain type of people. Getting into pissing matches in a game blog is pointless. I don’t know why you insist on such silliness, but hey, you’re not the first, and I’m sure you won’t be the last.
Anybody who knows anybody who’s into Yoga understands that I’m not being unreasonable. Your only argument is that I should not feel that they are creepy cultists or generally unpleasant people. Sorry, but being that I find you highly unpleasant and passive aggressive, you are not the best person to ease my discomfort around yoga practitioners.
Stretching excercises without the religious component are called “stretching exercises”.
Lavazza, I didn’t say that Yoga was a religion. Don’t be daft. It is a form of worship, like praying and lighting candles. The meditation and quieting the mind, and achieving perfect posture is about aligning and harmonozing the chakras and spiritual energy.
It’s no more complicated or lofty than the dances west African animists learn to embody the Orishas.
You can do the dances without becoming possessed by the Orishas, but Vodun is still where they came from, and their purpose remains the same regardless of who co-opts them.
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@Gorby/Polymath
Dance game works.
The difficulty is avoiding the sleaze factor. There’s too many guys in our social circle who have been labeled sleaze bags because they’ve “crossed the line”.
Calibration is key.
Will provide field report.
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@Cap’n Bob
If I told you that the laptop that I am typing on just happened to be constructed without the intervention of any outside agency or force, I would be viewed with incredulity.
I didn’t say the universe wasn’t created by an agency. Just that there’s no – NO – evidence for it.
I have evidence that your computer is likely made by people in factories.
This is a false comparison.
The atheist claim that the entire physical universe just happened to “come about” is likewise an extreme claim. And as such, the onus of proof lies with those making it.
Again, you need to get out of your religious mindset. You just don’t think rationally.
The atheists make NO such claim. The atheists come to no conclusion about the “maker” of the universe: They can’t. It’s not testable, verifiable or controllable. It’s not a useful discussion.
Physicists can track back the origin of the universe to moments after creation. They can codify and identify physical laws. There’s real progress. Assume another 500 years of scientific and technological progress. What else will they be able to discover?
Taking a physics point of view: There is a lot of evidence that the universe is “fine-tuned” for intelligent life: The value of the cosmological constant (which governs gravity) is at a setting that permits the formation of matter. Secondly, there is a matter/anti-matter assymetry (much more matter); as well as the universe having sufficient mass to permit complex structures such as galaxies, without having too much mass which would result in collapse. Thirdly, the presence of so many inverse-square laws.
In a zillion iterations of the creation of universes, it has to happen some time. You mistake chance.
“But it’s a false argument, a shibboleth, that atheism leads to immorality. Usually, atheists have much stronger moral codes (and are generally better people) than any religious folk.”
Joseph Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot could not be reached for comment.
They all learned from the best: the Church (in any of its forms), Islam, fundamentalist Zoroastrianism (pre-Islam), actually, any religious belief system.
Religion – Communism – National Socialism: Same social disease.
Human beings in general are a pretty scummy bunch, and to assume that our biological drives makes an adequate structure for morality is a pretty dangerous assumption (since we are descended from some of the less-pleasant Great apes).
I didn’t say that our biological drives are sufficient. We’re capable of reason and constructing whole moral systems without reference to Great Turtles Carrying The World or Manichaean philosophies or inane, self-contradictory Christian ramblings or the fanatical zealotry of murderous Islamists.
None of it is worth an intellectual grain of salt.
This “imagine no religion” shit has been field tested in the USSR, Mao’s China and Cambodia, and the results have been horrific, as bad if not worse than any religious regime in history.Given the performance of atheist regimes in the previous century, to claim that atheism makes you a better person than a believer is a pretty sweeping claim.
These belief systems simply replaced religion. They operate on the same principles; use the same metal and social cues; and are fundamentally indistinguishable from religion in its many guises.
It’s a human failing, a huge evolutionary maladaptation (there are lots of these), an accident of evolution that served a social purpose but which is a serious problem going forward.
Evolution doesn’t design for the future. It designs for now. It designs for current environmental and social stresses. It can’t predict.
We’re saddled with this base instinct. A major flaw.
It means we need a serious pair of glasses to repair this bad intellectual eyesight.
I see no reason, none whatsoever, no palpable or demonstrable evidence to support any religion that has ever been.
Atheists aren’t believing anything on faith. There’s no faith in it at all.
And that’s the point.
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Roissy:
There’s a quotation I can’t find by Dawkins where he mildly softens on Christianity viewing it as protective of the great EVIL of Islam. Or perhaps it’s an interpretation I read of this from him.
ahappinessexperiment:
He seems to get it. He may have written a book on the subject. Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life.
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….insanity later
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Cap n Bob –
If the universe wasnt fine tuned to sustain intelligent life, we wouldn’t be here to observe it, so your point is moot. That said, there is something uncanny about the fact that we happen to live in such a universe. If there was only one universe ever to exist, then the probability that such a thing would happen would be a good reason to believe in an intelligent designer. But it is likely that there are many, perhaps infinitely many universes, and the one we exist in happens to support life… so we evolved.
Gorbachev –
While I respect Dawkins for his willingness to take on religion, he does attack a certain kind of narrowly defined God that I happen to not believe in myself. I consider myself a theist, and I actually belong to the Catholic church. While I dont have the space to explain my reasoning on a blog comment, I consider my position to be intellectually reasonable and defensible. For a good summary of my philosophy, I suggest reading “The Will to Believe” by William James:
http://falcon.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
I despise dogmatic atheists just as much as I do dogmatic fundamentalists. I very much appreciate the atheist point of view, but I can’t stand those that go out of their way to denigrate people who believe in God or religion. There is just too much in this universe that is unknown for me to judge someone’s conception of the divine or eternal.
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I couldn’t resist… so here I go…
I like to define exactly what it is we are talking about. What is belief? That is, what do people mean when they say they believe in something? Is it a state of mind? Is it what you say – what comes out of your mouth, or is a way of being or living? I suspect for people like Dawkins, a belief is something he would publish in a peer reviewed journal. So for now, let’s consider Dawkin’s spectrum of theistic probability (copied from Wikipedia):
1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, ‘I do not believe, I know.’
2. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. ‘I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.’
3. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. ‘I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.’
4. Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. ‘God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.’
5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. ‘I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be sceptical.’
6. Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’
7. Strong atheist. ‘I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung “knows” there is one.’
Dawkins places himself at a 6, and at certain points in my life, I have been a 6 as well. But the difference between myself and Dawkins is that I am willing to explore the numinous in ways he would consider irrational and unscientific. Also, if Dawkins is referring to the Abrahamic definition of God, the omniscient, omnipotent deity that exists supernaturally outside of nature, well, that’s just silly; it’s an archaic and overly legalistic conception of God – one possibility amongst many that was taught to me in my theological education.
I am somewhere between a 1 and a 4 depending on my mood. My philosophy is this: pick your hypothesis and run with it. You have one life. You can spend that life as a perpetual skeptic and avoid ever being duped, or you can throw your caution to the wind and follow the religion that speaks to your soul. If believing in God makes you a better, happier person, what’s to lose? If, in the end, you were being duped all along, and we are really just a bunch of silly hapless monkeys going nowhere, well being duped is no less comic or tragic than any other ridiculous shit that happens on this lonely little speck.
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im atheist but i agree its silly to act superior about it. we all have our insanities to get thru life. some people need to believe in game, for instance.
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Gorb,
1) Would love to discuss theism/atheism with you some other time
2) What do Zoroastrians say about it?
3) “Why Game will continue to be relevant” is where you posted previous updates, that thread is from 5/21. That’s an awesome thread which has lots of other great stuff on it; our host should add it to the list of special “Pages” at the top right.
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people speak of Game as if it were some sort of magical force as opposed to merely a collection of the wit and wisdom of pick up over the past decade or so.
but most humans are born with the religious neurosis.
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Polymath,
Zoroaster (Zarathustra) was the first to make a division between good and evil and thus should have been the first–to catch his mistake, per Nietzsche.
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Nietzsche prophesized that one day psychology would regain its rightful place as the “queen of the sciences”. Is Game the fullfilment of that prophesy?
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profundity is the last refuge of the drunk.
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A friend of mine does well in yoga classes. He says the trick is to go to a class that’s immediately after another class, so early arrivals have to loiter in the hallway. Once you’re in the room it’s hard to chitchat because of the meditative vibe. He shoots to meet a girl 2-3 times in the hall before moving in for the close.
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@Seth
Gorbachev –
While I respect Dawkins for his willingness to take on religion, he does attack a certain kind of narrowly defined God that I happen to not believe in myself. I consider myself a theist, and I actually belong to the Catholic church. While I dont have the space to explain my reasoning on a blog comment, I consider my position to be intellectually reasonable and defensible. For a good summary of my philosophy, I suggest reading “The Will to Believe” by William James: falcon.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
I despise dogmatic atheists just as much as I do dogmatic fundamentalists. I very much appreciate the atheist point of view, but I can’t stand those that go out of their way to denigrate people who believe in God or religion. There is just too much in this universe that is unknown for me to judge someone’s conception of the divine or eternal.
The issue is not what an individual personally believes. To say, as the original comment – commenter said, “Dawkins is a joke”, and others – the religion acts as the (legitimate) moral anchor for society, and is the only one –
is ridiculous.
It’s one thing to have an irrational personal belief. It’s an entirely different thing to found a society based on the principles of that irrational belief.
Reality is better than a mythical dreamland, no matter how happy the dreamland seems.
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Yoga is good because it works your whole body. I do it sometimes, but I’m not that committed to it. I just lift weights and do cardio so I get toned and so on. I find it more challenging than yoga since I can beat myself at it.
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gorby —
the threads seem to disappear when we discuss this topic, but i’ll try again.
the following is something you may already have seen on a previous thread, but i’ll repost it in case you haven’t.
in re:
Atheists aren’t believing anything on faith. There’s no faith in it at all.
And that’s the point.
your screeds against the church are, uh, peculiarly intense; they exude a very personal animus. have youu had some particularly bad experiences with the church?
in any case, there are two things you’ve really got to realize here.
one, this statement is suffused with irony, as ‘civilization’ itself is inseparable from religion.
what makes alphas cooperate with, rather than exploit, betas?
what infuses impulsive people with future time orientation?
when men band together and fight for a cause that is greater than themselves, what is the cause that is greater than themselves?
what makes people work for the greater good, indeed even to believe in the very notion of the greater good in the first place?
whatever your answer to these questions, it WILL be a form of ‘religion’ based on ‘arbitrary morality’, whether one of the traditional religions or one of the secular religions. take your pick.
short version: the fact that essentially all of the world’s great architecture and music flows from religion is not a coincidence.
has religion caused some pretty bad shit?
yes, of course it has.
duh.
religion is powerful. like almost all other forms of power, it can be used for good or for bad. therefore, not surprisingly, religion, throughout its long and storied history, has been used both for good and for bad.
i’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. perhaps the most interesting part of this eruption, though, is your redundant phrase ‘arbitrary morality’, which seems to insinuate the existence of a non-arbitrary morality.
praytell sir, what morality is not arbitrary?
second, you seem to view ‘rationality’ and ‘justification’ as almost divine, and you despise ‘pat answers’.
news flash: people are not turing machines, with a fucking terahertz clock speed, who can suss out the far-reaching ramifications of all their actions. they need a framework that, even if founded upon ‘rational’ ‘justification’, is on its face dogmatic, so that they don’t have to contemplate every decision in their entire lives for hours in the style of a chessmaster.
almost all decisions in everyone’s lives are made according to some sort of ‘inflexible dogma’ or ‘pat answer’.
tell me, gorbs:
do you think it’s wrong to kill random people if they look at you the wrong way?
do you think it’s wrong to steal things from people who have worked hard for them, because they’re shiny and you like them?
assuming the answers are ‘yes’, where do you think these mores originate?
hint: the answer is not a giant global-scale game of prisoner’s dilemma. rather, the answer is the big imaginary prison warden in the sky.
as for your pat-answer-free world, i’d like to introduce you to the world’s two most successful anti-religious leaders: (a) mao zedong, (b) josef stalin. nice track record there buddy.
third, THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE REALLY STUPID, and can’t even grok abstract notions of ethics. again, you show your ignorance of … real people. in what rarefied enclave do you
pass your days?
you know how six-year-olds need to be afraid of someone’s tangible anger to have ‘morals’?
replace six-year-olds with average people (who really aren’t that much more sophisticated than six-year-olds), and replace someone’s with some deity’s.
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rebelliousvanilla: Well, you can always write down at which part of your practice you first lost your concentration on the 1) breathing, 2) pelvic floor support and 3) eye focus (hand, foot, tip of nose, navel, sky etc, depending on the asana), and then try to beat your record. Quite a challenge.
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johnny five, I won’t even take the trouble to obliterate your nonsense. Religion and morality are two different things and while morality is something that is inseparable from civilization, religion is.
Lavazza, the challenge isn’t the same. I did ballroom dancing for more than a decade so I’m really good at coordinating those. I kicked some ass at dance too, but sadly I had to quit. I’m also really flexible and I could do advanced yoga. What I found yoga the best for is the emotional part – when I am depressed or nervous or angry, it gets me balanced. Gym wise, for example, it was a challenge for me to do a pull up. Now I can do it. Which is amusing considering I’m slender. Or it was a challenge to squat my bodyweight. Now I can do a set with more than that. And as I tell my friends…
Squats+deadlifts+pulldowns+cardio=great body. What’s funny to me is that women think they can become Arnold overnight. I guess they really bite the equality crap and think they have testosterone, or something.
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Nietzsche prophesized that one day psychology would regain its rightful place as the “queen of the sciences”.
i always understood that characterization to mean that it would occupy a rightfully complementary place next to natural philosophy (i.e., math + hard sciences), which would, naturally, be the king of the sciences.
if he didn’t mean that, i’ll damn well take credit for the analogy, which is profound in more than one way.
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johnny five, I won’t even take the trouble to obliterate your nonsense.
i like challenges.
Religion and morality are two different things and while morality is something that is inseparable from civilization, religion is
i hear you here — this is dawkins’s usual tripe about how we can build a big happy world around an areligious body of ethics.
dawkins is also naive enough to believe that replacing traditional religion with awe of the natural world is a workable scenario on a global level. (see the last chapter of The God Delusion.)
while you are quite obviously literally correct, the fact remains that morality is, at its core, fundamentally arbitrary. furthermore, many basic moral principles, such as the idea that thou shalt not kill, have negative utility from a strictly evolutionary standpoint.
as a result, SOMETHING is needed to GROUND these morals and ethics.
i’m with dawkins — the natural world is a pretty awesome place. on my better days, i can still brush cynicism aside enough to believe in some sort of brotherhood of man, at least brotherhood of men who are sufficiently like me. heh.
but i have an iq that is over the median, and so does everybody else that dawkins has probably ever met in his entire ivy-covered oxbridge life. therefore, he can sit back in his ivory tower and genuinely believe in the feasibility of ethics based on natural philosophy.
as for the great unwashed masses?
YOU tell me how they are going to understand ethics and morals, if not guided by an imaginary sky-based meter-out of justice.
really.
tell me.
tell me how you’re going to get people with an iq of 75 not to massacre each other, if not with religion.
in fact, i’ll raise you.
tell me how you’re going to get non-hypogonadal intelligent people not to steamroll each other, if not with religion.
i’ll wait.
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@johnny five
Look, this is off topic for the post and your mindless repetition isn’t worth the effort.
But I’ll put in a few sentences.
as for the great unwashed masses?
YOU tell me how they are going to understand ethics and morals, if not guided by an imaginary sky-based meter-out of justice.
really.
tell me.
tell me how you’re going to get people with an iq of 75 not to massacre each other, if not with religion.
in fact, i’ll raise you.
tell me how you’re going to get non-hypogonadal intelligent people not to steamroll each other, if not with religion.
Okay.
We’ll do it the same way we do it now, as a secular society, with entirely secular laws and institutions. BTW, this is actually the way religion as a social force does it:
– Law. Secular law. Oh, already have that.
– Law Enforcement. Secular. Already have that.
– Social ostracism. All societies do that.
– Material threats (confiscation). Already do that.
– Confinement and social reform. Got that, too.
Justice and morality have no need for religion; in fact, they may work better without it and without reference to it.
We can decide on an arbitrary – and *inclusive* – moral code, and its enforcement mechanisms, without the need for mumbo jumbo.
Stupid people usually prevent themselves from committing crimes for fear of one of the above – not religion.
We already have a functionally secular society. Look at a country like Canada or Sweden; there’s no reference in the civil structures to religion at all. The U.S. is the most religious country in the West, and its structures are entirely, aggressively, secular.
Dude, we’re there already. That’s why the religious hate secularism. We have the answer. We just need to ditch the superstition.
You haven’t thought any of this through at all.
Go do that and then debate it.
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@johnny five
You are basically suggest that religion’s prime utility is as a psychological tool for crowd manipulation, and are not claiming that there’s truth in it. You seem to be saying that it’s a useful tool for social control people.
The benefits to ditching religion is that:
We can harness more of the intellectual and social potential of the human race for actually beneficial causes instead of the useless (if often quaint and amusing, and/or murderous) channel of any superstitious mythology.
And as for the supposed benefits of the Church or Religion for society as a whole, every one could have been provided by any power structure. The fact that the church or Islam or any religion did any of these tasks is a testament of humanity’s ability to adapt any structure to do what it wants. Some structures work better than others. Religion must be among the worst.
When freed of superstition, every one of these things has become much better:
Music: Does not require the church.
Art: Does not require the church.
Language arts: Do not require the church.
Performance: Much better without the church.
Information transmission: Generally better without the church.
Culture: Does not require the church
Science: Can safely ignore mythology
Politics: Infinitely better without religion in every possible way
Civics: More inclusive, less divisive, less dogmatic structures
Technology: Freed from arbitrary restrictions based on rules and regulations set in stone for bronze-age subsistence societies
Human Potential: We can educate for skills based on reasoning and inquiry, instead of rote learning of meaningless drivel and superstitious dogma (Islamic schools, religious schools, parochial schools)
Science: Negation of arbitrary superstition required.
Best of all: We can understand how vitally important life is, including every individual life, because without the crutch of the “hereafter”, murder takes on a much more serious tone of finality and the need to protect ourselves from it a much more urgent appeal.
When the Scientific Age began, what changed everything the most was the change in attitude and outlook: hypothesis, testing, experimentation, evidence. An actual intellectual tool.
Once this happened, if allowed to continue, the superstitions were doomed.
The best way to exterminate these farcical belief systems – which have no inherent social value or utility that can’t be done better by a host of other structures – is simply to educate people and give them the tools to think freely.
Free thinking is the dreaded enemy of all religion.
And it’s the key to unlocking human potential.
You’re an idiot if you think hamstringing the human mind through the callous imposition of superstitious mumbo jumbo is either necessary or desirable or useful in the long-term.
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Major eye opener.
It’s shocking and disappointing how ignorant most of you are about Dawkins’s points (and about morality). It’s not the ignorance which is so annoying – it’s the illusion of knowledge.
Gorbachev is the only one who seems to have actually read the guy – not read what some other retard has said in a strawman critique of Dawkins.
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“Nietzsche prophesized that one day psychology would regain its rightful place as the “queen of the sciences”
That depends on what psychology meant during his times.Nowadays the poor lad is #3 on the misogyny list of wiki; if only he had tried harder or had the courage to speak in less ambiguous terms. With the amount of women in the field I hope it never does.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun07/changing.aspx
“Just by their sheer numbers, women are changing the field of psychology,” says Carol Williams-Nickelson, PsyD, associate executive director of the American Psychological Association of Graduate Students.
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Gorbachev
“I’m a social being; I need to get along with other people”
I need to get along with people, hence I am a social being.
Once you realize that not only you die alone but that you live alone, the concept of God becomes a savior to save you from that loneliness. It’s like a theory based on pure logic, that which cannot be experimentally verified save for the words of those who proclaim that god is.
Most religions grew around a genius who had a keen insight into reality which then attracted followers.To separate the followers from others then you had to have rules.And thus religion is seen as a set of rules, to believe in a god, to love each other, to kill your enemy, etc etc BS.
You could say the same for Dawkins, but he is nowhere near the intellecutal excellence of the men who founded religions.
Religion was an unifying force for the masses, now the church of science is. As it tries to include more and more under its folds it starts including inconsistencies and then it will decay like religion has. Sexism and racism charge are the first that comes to mind. GW, if you think that it’s a hoax.
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“Religion and morality are two different things and while morality is something that is inseparable from civilization, religion is”
The evidence is overwhelmingly against it.Religion has been the greatest civilizing force on mankind.
Womankind still remains uncivilized. 😦
“I’m also really flexible and I could do advanced yoga. ”
*drool*
“Or it was a challenge to squat my bodyweight. Now I can do a set with more than that. ”
damn, go for one arm pull ups next.
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j5,
You are scoring heavily, and I agree with almost all you are saying. But many in the audience here would, without disputing your sociocultural points, insist that truth matters above all (the theme of the blog is killing pretty lies after all), and that we higher-IQ types capable of having a discussion of this depth ought to at least acknowledge that the sociocultural utility of belief in God and the truth of such a belief are independent, and that you ought to as a matter of intellectual self-respect make a case for theism directly.
I don’t actually agree with this independence thesis, but to defend my own synthesis here is more effort than I have time for now. However, since you are already in the arena laying them out right and left with your cudgel, perhaps you could address this.
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johnny five knows his shit.
gorbachev just wrote a book and thought he had become smarter just from it.
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i mean read a book orz
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I consider God to be a hypothesis – a vaguely formed fuzzily defined hypothesis. Kinda like how phlogisten was a hypothesis that was needed in order to understand oxygen. To me “God” is a word that I use to represent all that is divine, eternal, holy, and numinous. In that sense I believe in God or at least the possibility of God. I am not arrogant enough to pretend that I will understand all of reality during my short life, so I think it is a travesty to apply the scientific method to your own existence.
God is a concept that has utility for me in my life. Believing* in God makes me happy . . . and who knows . . . I could be right.
*Belief = a settled habit of mind that gives rise to some definite pattern of action.
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@Jay
Major eye opener.
It’s shocking and disappointing how ignorant most of you are about Dawkins’s points (and about morality). It’s not the ignorance which is so annoying – it’s the illusion of knowledge.Gorbachev is the only one who seems to have actually read the guy – not read what some other retard has said in a strawman critique of Dawkins.
It does appear that this is the case. It’s unfortunate. Dawkins and his ilk are clear-thinking and to-the-point writers who distill arguments to their bare elements, and make no philosophical apologies for asking for rational arguments based on proof.
@namae nanka
Gorbachev
“I’m a social being; I need to get along with other people”
I need to get along with people, hence I am a social being.
Once you realize that not only you die alone but that you live alone, the concept of God becomes a savior to save you from that loneliness. It’s like a theory based on pure logic, that which cannot be experimentally verified save for the words of those who proclaim that god is.
Okay. But an idea’s psychological usefulness at a specific moment does not make the idea true.
I argue: Truth would make us better.
<I.Most religions grew around a genius who had a keen insight into reality which then attracted followers.To separate the followers from others then you had to have rules.And thus religion is seen as a set of rules, to believe in a god, to love each other, to kill your enemy, etc etc BS.
You could say the same for Dawkins, but he is nowhere near the intellecutal excellence of the men who founded religions.
????
You obviously haven’t read any scientists’ or philosophers of sciences’ works, let alone Dawkins.
They make no claims to anything like approaching a religion. They don’t ask for belief; they don’t ask for faith; they don’t ask for assurance or followers.
The religious often criticize them for not offering something in the place of religion: Science and reason seem empty and cold. No Feel-Good Vibes, no empty platitudes, no comforting ideologies.
You can’t say that Dawkins or science does that. Quite the opposite: It takes this BS and rattles it until it collapses into a pile of worn-out superstition.
It’s a very little like game and women’s behaviour. The pretty lies are smashed by the hard rocks of reality.
The delusions are simply negative.
Religion was an unifying force for the masses, now the church of science is.
Science makes no claim for this mantle. In fact, it rejects it. Scientific ideas are in a constant state of flux. It’s hard to grab onto anything but the actual intellectual approach. And that’s the value of it. Nothing is solid; nothing is firm; you can only know things to a degree of assurance.
This degree can be quite high, but the attitude says: always base on evidence. New evidence? Incorporate it and reanalyze.
As it tries to include more and more under its folds it starts including inconsistencies and then it will decay like religion has. Sexism and racism charge are the first that comes to mind. GW, if you think that it’s a hoax.
Science is anti-belief. Sexism and Racism and Isms charges have nothing – Nothing – to do with science.
Clearly, you have actually no idea what you’re trying to say.
“Religion and morality are two different things and while morality is something that is inseparable from civilization, religion is”
The evidence is overwhelmingly against it.Religion has been the greatest civilizing force on mankind.
Womankind still remains uncivilized. 😦
There are many unifying forces that could unite humanity. Religion was used because it was there.
In general, it unifies by crushing the human spirit into a fine powder.
There are other ways to unify us. Religion is a false tool.
And the evidence for religion almost always being a disastrously destructive force is overwhelming. Islam. Christianity (until the West effectively abandoned it as a “unifying force” in the Renaissance and Reformation- we became better people by ceasing to be effective Christians).
By your argument, incidentally, it matters little which religion is used, they all serve this purpose. Which they in fact do. And it makes them no less false.
@Polymath,
j5,
You are scoring heavily, and I agree with almost all you are saying.
The fact that western societies are officially and often functionally secular actually demonstrates that Johnny 5 is wrong.
But many in the audience here would, without disputing your sociocultural points, insist that truth matters above all (the theme of the blog is killing pretty lies after all), and that we higher-IQ types capable of having a discussion of this depth ought to at least acknowledge that the sociocultural utility of belief in God and the truth of such a belief are independent, and that you ought to as a matter of intellectual self-respect make a case for theism directly.
IE: Make a case for the truthful, fact-based existence of claims made by religion.
As for the utility of religion as a social tool, you can also make the case for after-school programs and soccer and television.
Such arguments, including those for the superior usefulness of religion as a tool of social control, are disingenuous.
@spandrell
johnny five knows his shit.
Actually, johnny 5 and a lot of posters seem to be unable to parse and split apart into basic elements the variouspoints they’re adressing, and are muddled.
gorbachev just read a book and thought he had become smarter just from it.
Many people (including me as one small member) have read not one book, but hundreds, if not thousands, have been educated in science, have seen hands-on evidence for facts or spoken with the people who acquired this evidence, and I mentioned Dawkins in a casual aside because Dawkins is the same – but he writes very well, and has a courageous Take-No-Prisoners Religion-Doesn’t-Deserve-My-Respect attitude – which is refreshing and emboldening.
There are hundreds of authors and thinkers whose works are accessible, in addition to Dawkins. Many of their works are brilliant; many are accessible; many are entertaining. Few are as well-written and accessible and entertaining as Dawkins.
What Religion needs is the Roissy treatment. Which it gets from Dawkins.
@Seth
I consider God to be a hypothesis – a vaguely formed fuzzily defined hypothesis. Kinda like how phlogisten was a hypothesis that was needed in order to understand oxygen. To me “God” is a word that I use to represent all that is divine, eternal, holy, and numinous. In that sense I believe in God or at least the possibility of God. I am not arrogant enough to pretend that I will understand all of reality during my short life, so I think it is a travesty to apply the scientific method to your own existence.
That you think this is a travesty is a failure of our society to educate our people.
Your psychologically comfortable notion is still not a hypothesis that can be tested or even, as you point out, reasonably defined – it’s a catch-all comfort zone of non-ideas.
That’s fine. But it’s ridiculous to base a belief system on a “feeling” that can’t even be discussed in terms that can be understood or defined.
God is a concept that has utility for me in my life. Believing* in God makes me happy . . . and who knows . . . I could be right.
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look gorby, i call tell you’re not a stupid guy, but you really aren’t that good at connecting dots. neither are most people, but your current level of piss and vinegar is starting to entertain me.
do not take any of the following as a personal attack; it’s objective man-to-man criticism, both of your ideas and of the perspective from which they come.
exhibit one:
Look, this is off topic for the post and your mindless repetition isn’t worth the effort.
stand down for a sec and look at what you’re doing here.
in particular, look at your extreme, dare i say irrational (!), level of hostility in response to a series of objective points.
the former beta is still strong within.
what’s happening here is in large part analogous to your continuing inner drive to pedestalize the persian girl despite all you’ve learned about game. keep reading.
think:
you are proud, well beyond the point of hubris, of your capacity for such things as rationality, objective analysis, etc.
when was the first time you ever applied this sort of thinking to, oh, say, your own personal relationships?
hmm.
upon reflection, it seems you never thought it exigent to turn your analytical lasers on your marriage until it had crashed, burned, and lay in smoldering ruins.
if you were truly as rational as you say, you would have figured out the basic tenets of game a long time ago, just by running the scientific method on your wife. as i’ve said in previous posts, game isn’t exactly rocket science — it just requires men to break out of a dogmatic, dare i say religious, frame of mind regarding the fairer sex. ahem.
i have a feeling that the same will be true of religion: namely, that you won’t see its value until you actually see the slow death of “secular” society — a death that will occur at a glacial yet relentless pace, not unlike the death of a marriage — all the way through.
hear me out here — there are two ways in which you really need to be set straight.
When freed of superstition, every one of these things has become much better
…
We’ll do it the same way we do it now, as a secular society, with entirely secular laws and institutions
is this a joke? our laws and institutions are “entirely secular”?
this is EXACTLY the same idiotic argument that feminists make in their contention that feminism is a viable system of social organization. society is still thriving, they say, and feminism has been here for some decades now. therefore, the reasoning goes, feminism must work.
this is of course idiotic, as it ignores the facts that (a) the consequences of social changes lag a couple of generations behind those changes, and (b) the upper classes, which are invariably used as the social yardstick, are always hit last.
the reason that our society still mostly works, despite its being suffused from top to bottom with toxic feminism, is that our society is still a palimpsest of its non-feminist predecessor, especially in the upper classes.
in particular, the upper strata of society are still functional because they have thus far almost completely resisted feminism’s baleful influence upon the family. they’ll get theirs soon, though.
you can probably see the point i’m trying to make by now: our “secular” institutions are a palimpsest of their predecessors, which were explicitly rooted in judeo-christian belief.
you can’t declare these institutions 100% secular because you’ve recently removed the church from the game, any more than you can take your star players out of a game in the 4th quarter and then turn around and attribute your win to the third-stringers who happen to be on the field when the clock runs out.
this is the Big Fucking Problem here: even smart people don’t have enough future-time orientation to recognize that a dead canary might portend disaster for the whole mine.
look, people are still breathing even though the bird is dead! nothing to worry about here, move on.
The best way to exterminate these farcical belief systems – which have no inherent social value or utility that can’t be done better by a host of other structures – is simply to educate people and give them the tools to think freely.
exhibit a:
my best friend’s father.
lays “game” on his wife in ways that would make most pretenders on this board want to cry.
has “inner game” that would put most guys on this board to shame.
three boys, two girls.
raised them in a barrio where most kids’ big decision was whether to ride with ms-13 or with swp (with the meaning of “ride” adjusted by sex).
all five are professionals. the two girls are both married to good men.
the only “tool” this man needed to hold all that shit together — and the only “tool” his woman needed to be a good woman — was his faith, the strength of his character, and ephesians chapter 5.
exhibit b:
you.
how many “tools” did you need to learn the same principles of relationship management?
how many years did you lose?
how much pain did you go through?
how long did you sit there feeling your soul slowly rot away before you decided to turn your vaunted rationality away from remote issues like religion, and toward bettering your own fucking life?
yeah.
now you were saying what, again?
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[dawkins] writes very well, and has a courageous Take-No-Prisoners Religion-Doesn’t-Deserve-My-Respect attitude – which is refreshing and emboldening
dawkins is “courageous”?
nah. he’s just another lefty type who enjoys skewering conveniently safe targets.
for instance, consider his characterization of the much-maligned christian god as “the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynist [he had to go there], pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully”.
ok fine.
so why then did he forget to comment on the god of the qur’an, who would seem to be as juicy a target for this sort of obloquy? hmm?
courageous my ass. let’s see if he’ll stand up to a fatwa.
look, i like dawkins’s stuff — you remember my previous reference to mount improbable — but the dude should’ve quit while he was ahead.
—
And the evidence for religion almost always being a disastrously destructive force is overwhelming
what about the evidence for its being a CONstructive force?
show me a society, anywhere, that has been built — BUILT, not temporarily embalmed as its innards rot — without religion as a unifying force.
i’ll settle for one.
—
Such arguments, including those for the superior usefulness of religion as a tool of social control, are disingenuous
gorbachev, which of the following statements do you agree with?
1) democracy is good.
2) women don’t rationally understand how women work, and neither do most men.
3) if left unchecked, women will act, mostly unconsciously but sometimes also consciously, to maximize their own self-interest at the expense of betas (and of society as a whole).
i presume you agree with all of them. correct me if i’m wrong.
the COMPLETELY RATIONAL consequence of #1-3 above is that the endgame of a “rational” secular democracy is feminism and the resultant decline of the family, and that we need an IRRATIONAL solution, such as religion, to keep those consequences in check.
thoughts?
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This has gotten pretty entertaining, all it’s missing is GBFM’s POV.
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@johnny five
look gorby, i call tell you’re not a stupid guy, but you really aren’t that good at connecting dots. neither are most people, but your current level of piss and vinegar is starting to entertain me.
I’m all for piss and vinegar, BTW. And as for connecting dots – I just seem to have more faith in human tractability than you do.
stand down for a sec and look at what you’re doing here.
in particular, look at your extreme, dare i say irrational (!), level of hostility in response to a series of objective points.
the former beta is still strong within.
I never claimed it wasn’t. But I don’t feel that my personal worldview is under attack; it’s just like being at a Psychic Fair and seeing charlatans say that Holistic Medicine makes people feel better inside, even if there’s no truth to it, it’s a good thing.
You can say the same thing about bubblegum. Makes you feel better, but it’s not food.
you are proud, well beyond the point of hubris, of your capacity for such things as rationality, objective analysis, etc.
when was the first time you ever applied this sort of thinking to, oh, say, your own personal relationships?
All the time. It requires control. I have emotions, of course; I want to believe in life after death. And great chariots driving the sun across the sky.
But these things are just not true.
hmm.
upon reflection, it seems you never thought it exigent to turn your analytical lasers on your marriage until it had crashed, burned, and lay in smoldering ruins.
Of course. I was blinded by propaganda.
if you were truly as rational as you say, you would have figured out the basic tenets of game a long time ago, just by running the scientific method on your wife. as i’ve said in previous posts, game isn’t exactly rocket science — it just requires men to break out of a dogmatic, dare i say religious, frame of mind regarding the fairer sex. ahem.
Being blinded by propaganda: I freed myself through disaster. Nonie Darwish was freed through the realization that religion (Islam) was bunkus.
i have a feeling that the same will be true of religion: namely, that you won’t see its value until you actually see the slow death of “secular” society — a death that will occur at a glacial yet relentless pace, not unlike the death of a marriage — all the way through.
Secular society is under attack – not dying a slow death internally. The rational, evidence-based scientific worldview has never been stronger.
The only country becoming significantly more religious instead of less in the West is the US. Canada is almost an atheist paradise; no politician there mentions God. Most are embarassed to discuss their religion publicly. Europe is often the same. Japan: Korea (a very religious place, actually).
Secularism is powerful and flexible. It will win, except against the mindless frightening charismatic power of Ayatollahs. I’m just waiting for that to happen here.
hear me out here — there are two ways in which you really need to be set straight.
When freed of superstition, every one of these things has become much better
…
We’ll do it the same way we do it now, as a secular society, with entirely secular laws and institutions
is this a joke? our laws and institutions are “entirely secular”?
this is EXACTLY the same idiotic argument that feminists make in their contention that feminism is a viable system of social organization. society is still thriving, they say, and feminism has been here for some decades now. therefore, the reasoning goes, feminism must work.
this is of course idiotic, as it ignores the facts that (a) the consequences of social changes lag a couple of generations behind those changes, and (b) the upper classes, which are invariably used as the social yardstick, are always hit last.
Japan. Korea. India (as a secular government and with secular civic structures). Vastly multi-ethnic states. Europe. Canada. No sign that the near-total removal of anything remotely religious from public discourse has damaged Canada. On the contrary: My Canadian friends say that they’re embarassed by the US and its terrifying religiosity. Canada has lots of problems, but its secularism isn’t one of them.
you can probably see the point i’m trying to make by now: our “secular” institutions are a palimpsest of their predecessors, which were explicitly rooted in judeo-christian belief.
Or any belief. Replace with the palimpsest of any other religion, also fine.
All malarky. The world still wasn’t created in 7 days; the Church than banned Copernicus still pretends to pontificate in Rome, making half-hearted non-apologies for its endless series of egregious mistakes; and stone-age moralities designed for entirely different societies are used as models for modern life (whether or not it’s Old Testament, Christian or Islamic; the theory is all the same).
you can’t declare these institutions 100% secular because you’ve recently removed the church from the game, any more than you can take your star players out of a game in the 4th quarter and then turn around and attribute your win to the third-stringers who happen to be on the field when the clock runs out.
We’ve extracted the religion. Going forward, assuming the fundamentalists can be barred from jamming absurdities down our pubic throats, we won’t need the religious superstitions.
this is the Big Fucking Problem here: even smart people don’t have enough future-time orientation to recognize that a dead canary might portend disaster for the whole mine.
look, people are still breathing even though the bird is dead! nothing to worry about here, move on.
Holding on to obviously untruthful and undemonstrable ideals because the lower classes can’t be trusted.
How little … faith … you have in humans.
the only “tool” this man needed to hold all that shit together — and the only “tool” his woman needed to be a good woman — was his faith, the strength of his character, and ephesians chapter 5.
And I’m sure he’s a firm believer in the almost undeniable fact of evolution. A theory for which there’s overwhelming, and always growing, evidence.
exhibit b:
you.
how many “tools” did you need to learn the same principles of relationship management?
how many years did you lose?
how much pain did you go through?
how long did you sit there feeling your soul slowly rot away before you decided to turn your vaunted rationality away from remote issues like religion, and toward bettering your own fucking life?
yeah.
now you were saying what, again?
Tools: Game is fact. It may destroy the pretty lies.
All the more reason to tear down all the pretty lies.
dawkins is “courageous”?
nah. he’s just another lefty type who enjoys skewering conveniently safe targets.
A leftie? Hardly. Unless any non=fundamentalist Christian is a leftie. A libertarian, yes.
for instance, consider his characterization of the much-maligned christian god as “the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynist [he had to go there], pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully”.
ok fine.
so why then did he forget to comment on the god of the qur’an, who would seem to be as juicy a target for this sort of obloquy? hmm?
He holds up the Christian god as a happy half-brother of the scary Islamic one. His attacks on Islam are fiercer. He has not just contempt, but fear and contempt for Islam.
look, i like dawkins’s stuff — you remember my previous reference to mount improbable — but the dude should’ve quit while he was ahead.
I’m guessing we’ll get more good stuff from him.
And the evidence for religion almost always being a disastrously destructive force is overwhelming
what about the evidence for its being a CONstructive force?
show me a society, anywhere, that has been built — BUILT, not temporarily embalmed as its innards rot — without religion as a unifying force.
i’ll settle for one.
I’m not saying that the tendency to believe absurd things for other reasons isn’t a human quality. We can’t do anything without referencing this unfortunate quality. We always worked with religion. I didn’t say it was good.
Only that it’s unfortunate. We need glasses to correct our bad eyesight. The bad eyesight is this religious impulse.
On to a better approach for this discussion:
Such arguments, including those for the superior usefulness of religion as a tool of social control, are disingenuous
gorbachev, which of the following statements do you agree with?
1) democracy is good.
2) women don’t rationally understand how women work, and neither do most men.
3) if left unchecked, women will act, mostly unconsciously but sometimes also consciously, to maximize their own self-interest at the expense of betas (and of society as a whole).
i presume you agree with all of them. correct me if i’m wrong.
the COMPLETELY RATIONAL consequence of #1-3 above is that the endgame of a “rational” secular democracy is feminism and the resultant decline of the family, and that we need an IRRATIONAL solution, such as religion, to keep those consequences in check.
thoughts?
We don’t need to spread lies and half-truths to accomplish this.
Pretty lies: We need to demolish them all.
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“I argue: Truth would make us better.”
You don´t know that.
And…
We don´t know the truth! It´s that simple. I sympathize with religion bashing, all religions are pretty much bullshit, and it doesn´t take much of a brain to realize that.
But there are no traces of any atheist culture or civilization ever.
What does that tell you? If you had read as many thousands of books as you say you have, you would know that there were atheists in ancient India and China, and probably all over the place.
But they were killed by other religious communities.
So religion, however false, strengthens a tribe.
That´s one argument, there are dozens of others.
Like… morality doesn´t objectively exist. It has to be invented and enforced. Now tell me how do you force people to behave without the penalty of hell. And I mean real people, no hipsters and yuppies. Fact is the safest place on the history of manking was Victorian England. Secular England now is closer to South Africa
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I was waiting for GBFM to chime in. He has already commented on this subject, so I hope he doesn’t mind me quoting him:
“omg you fuckity fucktards.
it’s friggin staurday so take the day off of beind stooopid for a change
the beauty of religion is that ity acknwoeldges that there are entities, ideals, laws, and cool things greater than us worth aspiring too lzozlzllzlzlzlzlzlz
the probloem with neocon asshhatters like ayn rand is that she says man is god and thus her lietrature sucked as she was unable to write tragedies such as the gospels (ends in tragdy resurrection) socrates apology (ends in tragedy/resurrection) and hamlet (ends in tragedy/resurrection) lzozzllzlzlz.
now all you fanboy fuckity fucktards are incapable of the aupreme glory of athens (homer/socrates) and jeruslkame (moses/jesus). odysseus followed a hero’s oddyssey for ideals greater than himself. socrates followed an internal hero’s journey for ideals greater than himself. moses followed a hero’s journey and returned with the ten commandments and was a warriro and lead his people on a physical journey based on freedom–an ideal greater than himself. and jesus lived and dided for ideals greater than himslef. lzozlzlzllzll and then charlotte allen and ayn rand comes along and erases all teh glory by glorifying stories of rape, atheisim, and tucker max’s lies and secretive tapings of butthex withut the girl’s consent which is why the fiat masters who hate judeo christianity fund feminist stsudies lzozlzlzozlzlzozlzlzlzlzlzlzlz and pay them to pen articles repreating the fiat masters coprorate pr lies that tucker max is six foot talll.
lzozlzlz
now that bring sus to the glory and sublimity of hamlet whence athens (honnor by revenge and killing) and jeruasalem (honor by forgiveness) clashed in his soul. hamlet beocmes depressed. like socrates he is unable to find true virtue, like jesus he forgives the murderous uncle. like moses he passes judhment on the primal eldest curese of jeolousy and murder and like odysseus he too is called to liberate his own home from tyeh false suitors. lzozlzlzl
now all this glory is right at your fingertips and we oculd talk about that and all, but everywhere i turn it is jonah goldberg warmongering and butthex butthex anal rape ayn rand is god lzozlzozlzlozozlzozzlzlzozlo secretive tapings of butthex without the girl;s consent and tucker max is six foot tall as teh fiat masters must debauch both teh culture and the currency lsolz0ozlzozlzlzzlozlz lzozlzlzzl omgh lzozlzlzllzlzlzlzl zzozlzlzozoz and their women advocate that every girl ought lust after undead vampire monsters who wear makeup as the entire world befomces ruled by gina tingles and ghina tingles dictate that obama is a good president and gina tingles dictate that fiat cash is good as it places good men–the common worker–in massive debt lzozlzlzozlzozlzozlzozlzlzozozozozloz.
omg so take a day off of being stoopid and stop and think and that fiat kool-aid don’t you drink as the turds in it begin to stink lozlzlzlzlzz”
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Arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics. You might win, but you’re still a retard.
Gorby, if you get laid half as much you spend time writing ridiculously long comments, you’re a fucking rockstar. But seriously, only lonely nerds who masturbate too much put this much effort into this dumb shit… write a book.
My final contribution, 3 words: Abolition of Man
Johnny Five, you’re awesome. Post your email on Polymath’s blog.
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@Fortitudine Vincimus
Arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics. You might win, but you’re still a retard.
This is true.
Gorby, if you get laid half as much you spend time writing ridiculously long comments, you’re a fucking rockstar. But seriously, only lonely nerds who masturbate too much put this much effort into this dumb shit… write a book.
My final contribution, 3 words: Abolition of Man
You know, it could be that I’m sitting at a desk with not much to do, or up all night working and looking for interesting distractions, or editing endless amounts of work and I’m bored. Any combination of these, in fact.
It’s like a fad. People come and people go.
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“I consider God to be a hypothesis – a vaguely formed fuzzily defined hypothesis. ”
Everything that we talk of is a vague hypothesis. Metaphors everywhere.
Gorbachev
“They make no claims to anything like approaching a religion. They don’t ask for belief; they don’t ask for faith; they don’t ask for assurance or followers.”
Did Jesus ask for followers? It’s the same thing, one man who gives a new profound insight is followed by a multitude for they are not as good as he.
http://members.optushome.com.au/davidquinn000/Jesus01.htm
“Science is anti-belief. Sexism and Racism and Isms charges have nothing – Nothing – to do with science.”
Isn’t/wasn’t science used to proclaim that there are no racial differences since it hasn’t found any?
That was my point, powers that could use religion earlier now can do so with science.
“You’re a sexist/racist because science hasn’t found any differences.”
“You’re a sinner because religion said so.”
Not much difference really.
“This degree can be quite high,”
and so can be the collective delusions,
” but the attitude says: always base on evidence. New evidence? Incorporate it and reanalyze.”
and so whatever suits the times is accepted. It’s even better than religion for it’s so flexible. Today this is right, tomorrow that is right.
Zealots and idiots exist everywhere, religion used to be a rational system for human society as well.It still is.
“In general, it unifies by crushing the human spirit into a fine powder.”
and science doesn’t give me one.
“There are other ways to unify us. Religion is a false tool.”
It has worn out with its inconsistencies and will die out if there’s something better(based on current evidence, no there’s nothing), but there hasn’t been a better source of morality/rules for the masses. Why else would religions arise just about in every civilization?
“India (as a secular government and with secular civic structures). ”
lol we should never have been one, fcking idiots should have been more realistic at partition. Muslims still have their own courts and laws and waqf board, whatever the hell that is.
Only if Hinduism hadn’t been feminized as early as it did.
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“My final contribution, 3 words: Abolition of Man”
Abolish your douchebag ass first.
The shit is started we might as well finish it.
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That you think this is a travesty is a failure of our society to educate our people.
Your psychologically comfortable notion is still not a hypothesis that can be tested or even, as you point out, reasonably defined – it’s a catch-all comfort zone of non-ideas.
That’s fine. But it’s ridiculous to base a belief system on a “feeling” that can’t even be discussed in terms that can be understood or defined.
Jeebus, youre not getting it. And you obviously didn’t read the link to William James’ “Will to Believe” or else you would be challenging my argument on a more philosophically complex level.
I am not interested in defining analyzing logically deducing every aspect of my existence. I’m not interested in living my life like a science experiment. I live freely through my senses and intuition. I follow my gut. I believe things I feel might be right.
Is my belief system a psychologically comforting comfort zone? Yes. Do you have a problem with that? So what if I believe in God and I turn out to be wrong. Maybe I’m right and you are wrong. You don’t know for sure. So I will believe in the things I want to believe in and you believe in the things you want to believe in. It’s called pluralism.
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Yoga. Tight bodies. Game.
More of that.
Arguing about how many angles can dance on the head of a pin plz.
Less.
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@namae nanka
“They make no claims to anything like approaching a religion. They don’t ask for belief; they don’t ask for faith; they don’t ask for assurance or followers.”
Did Jesus ask for followers? It’s the same thing, one man who gives a new profound insight is followed by a multitude for they are not as good as he.
http://members.optushome.com.au/davidquinn000/Jesus01.htm
The “Jesus” we speak of (not the historical figure, if there ever was one) does, through this church and religion.
“Science is anti-belief. Sexism and Racism and Isms charges have nothing – Nothing – to do with science.”
Isn’t/wasn’t science used to proclaim that there are no racial differences since it hasn’t found any?
Science makes claims both for and against. The debate illustrates healthy skepticism and inquiry.
That was my point, powers that could use religion earlier now can do so with science.
“You’re a sexist/racist because science hasn’t found any differences.”
“You’re a sinner because religion said so.”
Not much difference really.
Huge difference. Science doesn’t say someone is a racist or not. Someone who took science and used it that way for a social agenda did. Possibly with or without foundation. The science is neutral on social issues. But this is not the case with religion. Religion is not neutral.
” but the attitude says: always base on evidence. New evidence? Incorporate it and reanalyze.”
and so whatever suits the times is accepted. It’s even better than religion for it’s so flexible. Today this is right, tomorrow that is right.
That’s right. Day One you had less information. You corrected yourself with new information. Self-correcting.
Zealots and idiots exist everywhere, religion used to be a rational system for human society as well.It still is.
Religion requires faith. Faith is not necessarily based on reason. Faith, by its very essence, often denies the very use of reason.
“In general, it unifies by crushing the human spirit into a fine powder.”
and science doesn’t give me one.
I’d hope that the truth wouldn’t be painful, once absorbed.
“There are other ways to unify us. Religion is a false tool.”
It has worn out with its inconsistencies and will die out if there’s something better(based on current evidence, no there’s nothing), but there hasn’t been a better source of morality/rules for the masses. Why else would religions arise just about in every civilization?
Because we create religion like we create tools. It’s part of our nature. But we can choose not to kill each other (today, if not always); we can choose to be rational, too.
“India (as a secular government and with secular civic structures). ”
lol we should never have been one, fcking idiots should have been more realistic at partition. Muslims still have their own courts and laws and waqf board, whatever the hell that is.
Only if Hinduism hadn’t been feminized as early as it did.
Well, India is still a secular state: Jains, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, animist “aboriginal” people – they need a secular state. All in all, secularism works quite well there. Better than any theist-based government could.
The enemies of reason are all of us. Game is like that.
Betas can deny it all they want; but it works.
QED.
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Polymath: “Dawkins’s contributions to evolutionary biology are important and deep, though in some cases unfruitful, and he is a very good writer.”
No, in fact, they’re nonexistant. Seriously; go read Stove’s book -he is a philosopher of science and a logician (he spent most of his career appreciating and excoriating Hume). All Dawkins did was popularize his thesis adviser’s thinking on the philosophy of evolutionary theory. He’s one of the worst charlatans in the public eye I can think of.
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The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional Psychosociological Conditions
http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP073984414.pdf
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“The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional Psychosociological Conditions”
Just to be clear, I am a Hindu, and except for having fun in some religious festivals(diwali holi) and watching the epics on TV haven’t seen much of the religious texts, nor paid visit to temples since they are too filthy and overcrowded. So the Hindu and religious tag is wasted on me.
My bias towards religion is borne out of, well, reason.
Religious codes are passed down as they are but should be understood as well.Current society however lacks the incentives to do so.Those who can, seem to have forsaken it, the change in cultures also have lead to removal of rules that are at odds with today’s society and would’ve made the most sense. Currently, Feminism and “obey the husband” rule can’t exist together.
Sciences start the same way, you are asked to remember the basics well, then go forth for higher concepts before you have fully understood the basics. Understanding will come later, we’re told. It did for some, it didn’t for many.
“Huge difference. Science doesn’t say someone is a racist or not.”
Same way religion hasn’t/didn’t got a say until someone is present to enforce it. Once it got incorporated into the state or gained power with a bunch of followers it was used as such.
sinner –> sexist
both charges then lead to a scrutiny of your moral/social values.
“Well, India is still a secular state: Jains, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, animist “aboriginal” people – they need a secular state. All in all, secularism works quite well there. Better than any theist-based government could.”
It’s a “secular” state because the majority is pussyfooted and divided. Hinduism isn’t as binding as Christianity or Islam; you don’t have a regular day to go to the temple, you don’t even have to undergo some ceremony to be declared a Hindu.
IIRC they didn’t even have one for conversion into Hinduism either.
Sikhs have had trouble with the majority, Muslims still continue to do.Pakistan has held us back more than we’d like to acknowledge.
Secularism doesn’t work unless all the religions in the country have been feminized into the message of peace and love. I think Christianity in west is undergoing this process, Hinduism did centuries earlier during times of prosperity, increasing population and decreasing number lands to conquer.
Islam doesn’t seem likely to do so and hence will conquer these secular lands which allow them to continue using their own religious laws and customs.
Atheism sounds good but the problem is that it resembles a void when compared to even strict religions like Islam.The majority who don’t reason, just want a belief system with an authority beyond reproach and they will flock to any thing that’s simple and gives them hope and good verses to sing in free time.
European countries that have been feminized under the rule of feminism will fall for the forces of Islam, and the lure of patriarchy will be too much for those ladies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman
“Religion requires faith. Faith is not necessarily based on reason. Faith, by its very essence, often denies the very use of reason.”
What is reason but faith in the concept that there is something unchanging in me that isn’t a part of the flux and hence that can observe correctly and then think via the medium of cause and effect?
Science also requires faith in concepts of language, mathematics, that these two are close enough to the reality we perceive.
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