Texts From Last Night is a great source of insight into the true nature of women’s sexuality. Why? Because it’s a compilation of texts that typically have been sent under the influence of alcohol, AKA truth serum, or of texts meant for trusted confidants.
Examples:
What women really think of your emoticons:
he sent me a winky sad face. i cannot deal [with] this level of pathetically needy flirtatiousness.
Remember Maxim #101?
For most women, five minutes of alpha is worth five years of beta.
Here’s a text from a girl confirming that maxim:
Just TALKING to him is better than banging my bf, imagine what actual banging will be like.
That is a wicked soulrip worthy of Pinhead’s hooked chains.
Being a beta provider in today’s sexual marketplace is a net negative:
I’ll pay for our taxi if you let me makeout with the drummer and we don’t leave RIGHT when the bassist does.
Pre-selection is the most powerful animating force of female desire:
every time I see Anne Hathaway all I can think is “my cousin fucked a guy who fucked her” and it makes me proud…. so I want to say thank you for being that cousin.
Chicks dig jerks, series without end:
he said ‘i love fucking you, ashley’. it was the most romantic thing he’s said during sex because he actually used my name.
At least the guy was honest. Truth is, that’s what most men mean when they think about romance.
It turns out someone got a hold of my texts and posted them to TFLN. I’m embarrassed by these, but since they’re already out there, it’s best if I just show them to you right now, like ripping off a band-aid, and hope the whole thing blows over quickly.
do you do anal?
***
[GIRL] hey, i’m sorry but i have to cancel for tonight.
[ME] :)))))))))))))))))))
***
[GIRL] you really are an ass.
[ME, three months later] you say something?
***
[GIRL] last night was fantastic, sexy boy.
[ME] tell me about it. i totally kicked your butt in scrabble.
***
i didn’t know you had a younger, hotter, tighter sister.
***
i left the bar tab for you. thanks, cutie!
***
your pussy smells
[15 minutes later] delightful.
***
you’re breaking up with me? was it the dutch ovens?
***
i’m not giving you 500 bucks to see an immigration lawyer. your blowjobs aren’t that good.
***
[GIRL] i’m really falling for you!
[ME] don’t get pregnant.
***
[GIRL] why do you have to be such a jerk?
[ME] why do you have to be such a jerk-lover?
***
[GIRL] i don’t think this is going to work out.
[ME] your mom!
[GIRL] i’m being serious. it’s over.
[ME] your mom!
***
thanks for the romantic evening fucking in your husband’s bed.
***
sorry, men’s nipples really aren’t that sensitive. stop projecting and focus on the important parts.
***
i’ve never seen a naked body like yours.
***
730, thurs, at the pub down the street. wear your fuck me pumps.
***
i think i might’ve accidentally farted in your cat’s face.
I’m so ashamed. 
Cool story, bro.
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“thanks for the romantic evening fucking in your husband’s bed”
That’s ‘getting people killed’ kind of evil. Nice.
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hahahaha nothing to be ashamed of
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Thought you would like this article – fem advice:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/06/09/choice-effect-why-are-you-single/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+timferriss+%28The+Blog+of+Author+Tim+Ferriss%29
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No problems with those texts in my eyes. Thanks for pointing to that site, TFLN is pretty great, definitely alot that can be learned by digging through there.
Off topic, but here’s one more story to get the blood going. Where to begin???
http://gothamist.com/2010/06/09/upstate_milf_charged_with_adultery.php
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“That is a wicked soulrip worthy of Pinhead’s hooked chains.”
I never understood where those chains came from, they would just fly out of nowhere.
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my best text ever
“lottsa cocka 4 letme touch yo knockas lzozlllz”
she texted back
“lol!”
i texted back “it’s pelled lzozlzlllzll”
we hooked up the next night.
lzozlzlzl
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The preselection says it best. Anne Hathaway
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Wow, I feel both educated and entertained. Roissy is the master. What an insight to how bitchy gals can be to emoticons and how hot gals are for status whoring. Hopefully, they’re not all that way.
[ME] don’t get pregnant.
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Fuck this kaliyuga.
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From two nights ago:
[HER] Babe I totally wanted to come ravish you but i am a total girl right now. If u get what I mean lol….mother nature.
[ME] Get your ass over here. We don’t have to fuck every waking minute. Although we are good at that….
She still came over and blew me and let me fuck her in the ass.
Now that’s true love.
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haha “your mom!”
I think “i’ve never seen a naked body like yours” is really good. makes her wonder if it’s good or bad
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(805): He def has a gf… But hes 7 feet tall and that superceeds any morality I may have.
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Whenever I read heady articles like this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135
all I have to do is click over to TFLN and my sense of balance returns to normal.
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(817):
you can add “aspirated seaman” to the list of things your sister has been admitted to the hospital for
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all the “end of men” articles can be translated thusly:
lozlzllz like i am a chick and because i have no dick the federal reserve systme wires me moeny money lottsa money putting the world in debt but i get the money money lzozlzlzo who needs amen any more? lzozllzlz wait a minute here i want a man where did all teh good men go? lzozlzl wait a minute we still need men to build invent create die in our wars on foreign shores lzozllz good thing bene bernanke is wriking me lottsa money so i can pay men to do work and go to colleeg and pay for it with bernanke cash and learn how to ass rpe men in coprorations an divorce court, trnsferring tehir natrual welath and netaural rights to teh fiat masters lzozlzlzl
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I used to picture “lolzlzlzzlzl” sounding like giggling and doing a raspberry at the same time – sort of a slobbery teeter-spray with the toungue out.
Now I think “lozlzozlzzlzol” is more of the sound you hear in movies when the character switches between channels — it usually carries a menacing overtone, like in suspense movies — it’s the sound of static coming form the TV.
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dude!
why make it harder than it is?
lzozlzlzlzozlzoozozl is prondounce lzozlzlzozzlllzlozllzozlzlzl
duh!!!
just like butthexth is prounced butthhexxtxtxh
ask any neocon if you don’t belie me
lzozlzlzlllzlz
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Learning to send snarky texts with a twinge of I-Don’t-Care badboy is good.
Never send texts without this.
Use as much sexual innuendo as you can.
Don’t worry about seeming like a jerk. Sounds better if you are.
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I shall tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England will say I am a liar, but History is written by those who have hanged Heroes. –Braveheart, the movie
I shall tell you of Tucker Max. Historians from England will say I am a liar, but History is written by those who have banged Butthexers lzozlzlzllzlz. –Neocon, the movie
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A chick I know calls me “sweetheart” in her text messages. She does it as a joke, to irk me.
What’d be a good response to such an insult, for future reference?
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what are the feelings on first contact? you get a number and you want to meet her for a drink. do you call or do you text?
what are the pros and cons?
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J r: Re: first contact. I generally call two days later, and from then on mostly text. If I meet and number close a girl really quickly, like on my way out of a club or something, I will often do a quick text later that night just to keep me fresh in her memory.
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Funny site that TFLN.
Here’s a hypergamous status whore:
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@jr –basically, you have a smaller chance of fucking anything up when you can send calculated, well-thought out text messages. that, and girls love them. I used to call girls and they’d ignore me, and then respond to a text. Go figure.
Don’t try to be too funny, tell her you’re going on a date, don’t ask her, and don’t be too wordy. And follow the “jumbotron” rule. That’s about it, i think..
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@ J r
A call right off the bat seems kinda desperate to me.
I like texts whenever possible, however I usually have to make at least one call before I hang out with a girl who barely knows me.
This was mentioned awhile back, that age matters. I havent come to a full conclusion yet, but it seems older women (26+) expect a phone call and you lose points as a coward if you don’t call at some point. Younger girls are more forgiving and a premature phone call seems weird.
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Jay,
How about calling her sweettart in your reply?
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@whatever, that may be true. I bet it’s a generation thing, though, not an age thing. I bet in ten years thirty year old girls will be loving the text set-up as well, and twenty year olds will be using video phones or ESP or whatever the new communication technology is to set up dates.
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I can’t understand this jerk thing, does that REALLY work?? the best way would be to show you are not just a doormat, but from then just act normal would take you just much further, if any guy would be as jerky to me, i would i politely just ditch him, and if you would be out just to score a girl, you don’t need to make up lies, just keep out certain details, and it would be much easier for both parts, really.
But then again, the girls you talk about might be on the same wavelength as some of the commenters here.
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@biktopia, just NOT doing things will get you halfway there. Truth is, most guys aren’t doormats. So just acting normal is expected and, well, it’s normal so not that exciting.
Think of us as vendors selling products. It’s not enough to have a product without notable defects. That won’t sell for a very high price or very often. The product has to offer something special, get it? We have to offer girls a different experience than they get with the average man. This is very obvious even if you don’t believe in game.
I like marketing/game analogies btw.
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“A chick I know calls me “sweetheart” in her text messages. She does it as a joke, to irk me.
What’d be a good response to such an insult, for future reference?”
sugar tits (even more effective if she has nice chesticles)
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OI,
i do believe in game, so im at the same page on that topic, its just not always carried out as i would like it to. I don’t think you need to be a jerk or to lie to be able to sell a product, but you could find other less soulkilling ways to sell no?
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Was wondering when you were going to get around to posting about the pure gold that is TFLN – Especially since almost every maxim you’ve ever posted is vindicated at some point on the site.
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these numbers seemed high on the right side until i realized that men are also in the running:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3qer8uNqY1qa0uujo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1276291223&Signature=6kbaeiXl3f6SDlp10AO1D1GLCZs%3D
there’s probably a lot of lying from both genders
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@ OI
I agree with you. Generational would have been a better way to state it.
I also agree with your explanation to biktopia.
@ Biktopia
Upon sober contemplation, what clear headed person doesn’t think that being a jerk shouldn’t work and a girl would just walk away…. and then it works and girls respond extremely positively. What can a guy do except follow the trail of reward?
I’ve second guessed some of my texts messages for being too much, then sent them anyway… sure enough, glowing responses compared to what would have been radio silence if I followed convention.
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biktopia:
I’m not a PUA, so the following is just what I’ve gathered from reading around.
I think it’s not actually about the jerk thing, it’s about showing that you are a fun guy to be around. Most people don’t have a good sense of humor and aren’t able to come up with witty comebacks and stuff to say, so they need to develop some routines. Hell, even stand-up comedians practice their routines for months…
As was said before me, you need to show an edge to a girl. Think of all the washing powder commercials, would you buy ‘Average Brand X washing powder’ or the ‘New Super Improved Awesome MegaWash(tm)!’ I think actually depending from your social circle anything interesting and out of the ordinary could work.
I used to run a small forum (less than 100 users) and yet when I was introduced to someone new, everyone could always say ‘yeah, he’s the guy that runs that place’. It was a great conversational topic to get started with for a shut-in like me, made me a more interesting person and so on.
Your last sentence is pure self-denial though. All women want a man who is interesting. Even Slashdot, reddit and sometimes 4chan (at least the ones who get laid, others are omega/beta misanthropes with the all women being bitches&whores attitude permeating every thread) just advocate doing something that is not in the cycle of work and home+TV/Internet. One reason for your own mental health and getting out of the wheel, other for improving you. It’s yet another thing that women are self-oblivious about.
Also, from what I understand, a neg isn’t a lie, it’s just an expected response for a shit-test, taking it with a humor spin. One example springs to my mind, like the
It’s not a lie, because who in their right mind would take that reply seriously. :>
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@ wtcantfw
Poli Sci, International Relations, Undeclared, actually most of the chart…. all way too high on the right… Poli sci for sure!
Charts like that need to be taken with an enormous grain of salt.
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wtcantfw, that doesn’t seem very surprising. Probably it’s caused by the intense workloads of chemistry/math and studio art is right where I expected to be. Artsy people (painters, musicians) started sexing each other up at the same time as sportsmen (14-15).
I imagined that chart to be a bit different in regards to PoSci, International Relations, Psychology and Economics though. The biggest surprise is CS though, I bet those guys rigged the polls or just bullshitted through it. I like to do it too when I encounter stupid questionnaires obviously done by people who have never taken a statistics class.
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90% of that stuff seems made up. of course, full disclosure, i aint shagged in 2 yrs.
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I suppose it would be fruitless to point out that Roissy is attempting to prove the veracity of his maxims by cherry-picking through the ramblings of a self-selected group of idiots on TFLN and that women who would disprove his maxims wouldn’t post there …..Yeah, I thought so.
[editor: don’t be a dunce. there is evidence for the maxims in more places than just TFLN. TFLN simply adds to the extensive body of real world evidence illuminating female sexual nature, and does so in a humorous way.]
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^^^^^^^^ in spirit of full disclaimer day.
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Whatever,
i guess it work on some girls. Some guys can get away with more then what other guys could, and on certain girls, they can get much further then if being just less jerky, but do you really want a girl like that?
i would say, i totally agree with you, girls wants mr interesting and mysterious, but a jerk? I think there is a line between the 2, if a girl can’t see the difference between a guy that pulled a great neg and a jerk, its a problem,,
Narzheewa, i totally agree with you, game isn’t a lie, i’m not sure which sentence would be contradicting in my comment, im saying, use game with caution and for your benefit, but not to the extent that it could hurt others, its unnecessary.
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“90% of that stuff seems made up. of course, full disclosure, i aint shagged in 2 yrs.”
I wouldn’t be surprised if a good portion is made up, but you also have to remember that a lot of girls are attention whores and love posting shit like this online.
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The most vital message we can give the next generation is:
For the girls: Don’t be like the dragons in these texts.
For the boys: Be all the douchebag that you can be.
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“im saying, use game with caution and for your benefit, but not to the extent that it could hurt others, its unnecessary.”
What does this mean?
Game should only be about what works at seducing women, and nothing else.
I hate it when people, especially girls, want gamers to adopt some sort of “code of ethics.”
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Jayz
Well, game is just not about getting girls in bed, it’s about getting what you want from other people, being a step ahead of others, for your benefit.
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“Hurt others?” WTF does that mean?
“He made me think he was cooler than he really is! That bastard!”
Women are still the sex gatekeepers. If they open their slippery pink gates to some guy because he has mastered Game, well, that’s their choice, isn’t it?
Or are we back to women being delicate widdle flowers who need protecting? In which case repeal the 19th amendment and make me a sammitch, bitch.
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@ biktopia
Do I “really want a girl like that?”
It works on ALL WOMEN, the so called “nice girls”, the trash and everyone in between.
Jerk is probably not the best word. I’m never mean, or at least I don’t try to be. …Its more about acting in the way that is best for me or saying something that makes me laugh, regardless of other people’s opinion.
Acting the way I described doesn’t automatically make you a jerk, but those are the same qualities that also happen to define a jerk.
I can hypothesize at least 5 reasons why girls are attracted to this. It’s all been covered somewhere on this blog…. Mostly the jerk traits are just the fastest way for a girl to find the traits they do value, such as confidence or strength of character.
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I think that site’s really funny, but then every time I’ve looked at it, after half an hour I feel sick to my stomach. Some of the stuff on there…what Roissy has picked out is quite tame. I feel like that about both the boys and girls texts, I’ve assumed it’s college boys and girls, but if it’s not I feel even sicker.
“For most women, five minutes of alpha is worth five years of beta.” “Being a beta provider in today’s sexual marketplace is a net negative:”
What we really want is a mixture of the two.
i.e. we don’t want the choice of ‘nice but boring’ and ‘interesting but horrible’, we want interesting and nice 🙂
Yeah yeah, you can say women don’t say what they really want but arguably men don’t either. The countless times I’ve seen a guy say ‘oh what I want is a girl who will be my best friend a lover who loves me like I love her’, hah.
“he sent me a winky sad face. i cannot deal [with] this level of pathetically needy flirtatiousness.
Personally, I love emoticons in text messages. It’s hard to tell tone otherwise sometimes, particularly since some guys seem to have the idea that two or three word text messages are acceptable. And one words e.g. ‘dinner?’ certainly isn’t acceptable, I can’t help getting the impression that a text like that has been sent to several girls. Girls like feeling special eh 🙂
Texts are a way to build/keep momentum, use them wisely in your arsenal.
This girl obviously isn’t interested in that guy so whatever he does she’s going to complain about. If she liked him, it would be more like ‘awww’.
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“Well, game is just not about getting girls in bed, it’s about getting what you want from other people, being a step ahead of others, for your benefit.”
I don’t know. I mainly use game to get girls.
You could use game to scam women I guess.
However, even then, I don’t see the need for any ethics. I never judge a man for doing what he has to to get laid, as long as he is not breaking the law.
If lies work, use lies.
If deception works, use deception.
It is hard enough out there to get cute or pretty girls to sleep with you without creating even more handicaps.
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Great post. Since I have recently come across new found wealth, I am upping my bid to ban lolz from posting comments from the previous $10 to $25..
🙂
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Whatever. I completely agree with you and i don’t see anything upsetting your replies.
Why game is so contradicting though, is that if you are mean by spirit, you will be able to create misery, and well, if we are here, we should say, both parties involved,, not just men but also women,,
and again, i do favor game,, i’m just against sadism, and that people have a laugh of it.
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and, as i tried to point out, Jerk behaviour and a great neg, is very different, maybe my perception of jerk is something else then for others. (jerk=idiot)
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What does sadism or hurting have to do with it? Both parties are getting what they want. The male gets sexual favors and the female gets attention from an alpha. Win win.
Game is no different from the concept of flirting in general: making someone feel good and generating interest.
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Found another one:
“HOnestly. That’s my one goal for this whole trip. I don’t give a shit about souvenirs or sand. I want penis.”
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[editor: don’t be a dunce. there is evidence for the maxims in more places than just TFLN. TFLN simply adds to the extensive body of real world evidence illuminating female sexual nature, and does so in a humorous way.]
I’ll ignore the ad hominem remark.
[editor: oh, please do me the honor of not ignoring it. i want you to suffer.]
Or was it a neg? I’m flattered, but I think I’m too old for you. I’ve hit the wall.
😉
[next!]
So, you’re doing scientific research at TFLN now? No pre-selection error an important considration for you then?
[TFLN is but one drop of evidence in an ocean of evidence illuminating the true nature of women. what part of that don’t you understand? or are you just arguing like a nerdbot for the sake of arguing?]
I did understand that you were using humor to illuminate what you believe is real world evidence of what women are like; I’ll even stipulate that some women like that, particularly the young and dumb (which seem to be the target of many of the strategies of game) exist. I even accept that many of the posters on this blog enjoy that sort of woman. But, honestly, the generalization from these women to some of universal system that appeals to all women is ridiculously extreme.
[i’m generalizing from a multitude of evidentiary sources. and generalizations are useful. they help us get through the day.]
A stipulation: the intriguing thing about this blog is that it sometimes offers helpful little shards of truth. A few weeks ago, I gamed my husband who said he was tired from his crappy work week to go out into taking me out for dinner and a movie. [We actually never made it to the movie , so thanks. ;-)] I used game to add a little spice to my life, but, to mistake a little spice for a healthy meal, for a whole diet? It’s neither wholesome or satisfying.
On a larger scale, I worry that the picture of male-female relationships that often emerges from this blog actually hurts someof the people who post here.
[their hurt is not my moral crisis. it takes a person of strong character, and stomach, to set aside his or her ego to see the world as it is, not how they wish it to be.]
Many of the men here are married or say they want to use game to look for a wife. Should they search among the drunken attention whores posting on TFLN? Should the female posters resign themselves to the notion that all men are dogs based on some of the behaviors that the guys on this blog claim to exhibit IRL? When we all play “boys against the girls,” (or vice-versa) who really wins?
[men and women have competing reproductive goals. this fact of life has been so for millennia and won’t change any time soon. refusing to acknowledge reality is a luxury beautiful women can afford because they will have men lining up to seduce them for years… until their dating market value plummets with age, at which point if they haven’t cashed in their chips when the cards were hot they will regret their ignorance of reality. that the world is “boys against girls” in no way implies that the flame of love is a mirage, or that we must abandon our quest for love and sex. it may seem that way to an inside-the-box thinker, but it is possible, with a flexible mind, to hold simultaneously both a firm grip of reality AND a win-win attitude toward love.]
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@askjoe
“Hopefully, they’re not all that way.”
As a woman, I’d say they aren’t. For every skanky comment I read on the net, there’s a woman I know IRL who is just looking for a decent guy.
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“However, even then, I don’t see the need for any ethics. I never judge a man for doing what he has to to get laid, as long as he is not breaking the law.”
What? Laws are mostly made by fools. Your moral compass is determined by what is legal?????
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Hilarious post, Roissy.
I always wonder when something I text somebody is going to wind up on TFLN.
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I don’t think tossing a neg out once in awhile comes across as being a jerk unless it seems contrived. I’m a natural at it, I neg everybody. That said, I’ve seen guys try to be witty or funny with negs and look like real asshats.
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@Jayz
“However, even then, I don’t see the need for any ethics. I never judge a man for doing what he has to to get laid, as long as he is not breaking the law.”
Well, you don’t have to judge other people, you just have to live with yourself.
But let’s change “get laid” to “make money” or “get ahead in the workplace”, is that a code you still live by? Expect your friends and coworkers to live by? Expect your politicians to live by?
“If lies work, use lies. If deception works, use deception.”
Again let’s change that to ‘make money’ ‘get ahead in the workplace’. Still feel the same way?
And does this apply to women you have sex with? Assuming you are completely happy if they lied or deceived you? You don’t make any judgements on them?
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“You could use game to scam women I guess”
You know con men?
If some man cons your mother into parting with money, is that better or worse than someone completely lying and deceiving your sister and she has sex with him?
““He made me think he was cooler than he really is! That bastard!”
It’s not about that.
When we see stories in the papers or on the tv about people being conned out of money, yeah in some cases we may think oh how silly of them to fall for them, but in many cases it’s a really clever con which you could fall for yourself unless you knew how they work. When I watch the shows that show you how cons work then I am personally more prepared to be on the look out and as I learn more about game, I learn how to deal with, but I hadn’t even heard of it a year ago. whilst I’ve know about cons all my life. And conmen are punished by the law.
Personally, I’d rather be out of 10k than finding out I’ve been hypotised into having anal sex by the man I love (yes girls the title of a chapter in an e-book and by one of the more decent master PUAs), you know my personal bits are a bit more precious to me 🙂 But the biggest thing would be what I’d see as a betrayal by the man I loved.
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True natural alphas:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/09/AR2010060905925.html
Anyone wanna bet that some of the sluttier girls got turned on when they saw they were “drafted”?
Also note: these guys are rising freshmen–14 years old.
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@J,
Many of the men here are married or say they want to use game to look for a wife. Should they search among the drunken attention whores posting on TFLN? Should the female posters resign themselves to the notion that all men are dogs based on some of the behaviors that the guys on this blog claim to exhibit IRL? When we all play “boys against the girls,” (or vice-versa) who really wins?
J, you mistake it. Pure game works on young, stupid women. It also works on older women. It works on every woman.
No: It doesn’t work on women who don’t have strong sexual urges. There is a class of people (men and women) who don’t have strong sexual desires. Game will be much less effective on them. They are less sexual beings. Some are actually more-or-less asexual; if they never have sex, they’re just as happy as if they did. It’s almost another gender.
But it works on all women, all the time. You just need to change the focus.
I can attest to: Married women; young women; older women; professional women; smart women (especially); dumb women; hot women; less hot women.
Al women.
[men and women have competing reproductive goals. this fact of life has been so for millennia and won’t change any time soon. refusing to acknowledge reality is a luxury beautiful women can afford because they will have men lining up to seduce them for years… until their dating market value plummets with age, at which point if they haven’t cashed in their chips when the cards were hot they will regret their ignorance of reality.
There are lots of women int his position. For example, much of the online dating population.
that the world is “boys against girls” in no way implies that the flame of love is a mirage, or that we must abandon our quest for love and sex. it may seem that way to an inside-the-box thinker, but it is possible, with a flexible mind, to hold simultaneously both a firm grip of reality AND a win-win attitude toward love.]
If you speak the truth, have one food in the saddle.
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Your future wife:
(256)
made out with three guys on the first night of college orientation, just imagine what joys all of next year will hold
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“wear your fuck me pumps.”
STOLEN! Using on Tuesday.
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Hey Roissy,
Why did the archives of old posts disappear?
I was reading my way through them, catching up on my long-overdue enlightenment.
I was up to August 2008 I think.
Reading the 8-14-09 post, stories from the marriage of Dave from Hawaii, many readers commented that the whole week of posts had been very good. So I was looking forward to those in particular.
Was the disappearing a tech glitch or a deliberate choice?
Dang, hope them archives return pronto.
Thanks O Heartless One.
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Hey doormats:
(859):
he just payed for our date, after telling him I was leaving early to meet my fuck buddy. is there something lower than friendzone I can stick this guy in?
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If a guy could secretely audiotape covens of club-hopping-hawt-chicks in their cars, apartments, and club bathrooms…………….
I imagine the material he’d gather, if played on the radio, would forever change many men’s view of the fair sex.
This wouldn’t be a bad idea, and might even be a underground commercial opportunity.
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@ Gorbachov
“But it works on all women, all the time. You just need to change the focus.”
Well, perhaps. I know if you change the focus enough you make it work on a man….
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This one is my favorite
“i left the bar tab for you. thanks, cutie!”
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“”He came in the heat vent in my car. Don’t ask how it happened.””
Some chick texted this???
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Nietzsche prophesized that one day psychology would regain its rightful place as the “queen of the sciences”. Is Game the fullfilment of that prophesy?
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I like this one:
(214):
“My vagina hasn’t been this smooth since I was 8. I better get laid tonight.”
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Long time reader first time poster!
I am guessing that this guy would be considered omega?
Husband stands by cheating wife
New York park, in front of kids, facing adultery charges.
Just watching the hubs stand there made me cringe.
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patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
hey, that explains why roissy is an asshat when it comes to politics!
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“My vagina hasn’t been this smooth since I was 8. I better get laid tonight.”
do u other guys really like the shaved thing? i hate it. i have to talk all my girls into growing it out. thats my idea of a cunt anyway. my theory is this: makes sense porno started shaving so u could see more… but then chicks got the idea the porno chicks are what guys want.
no, not in person! i can see ur cunt in person! the shave was for the camera
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“do u other guys really like the shaved thing?”
A pussy without hair is like a beautiful painting without a frame.
Neatly trimmed, FTW.
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My favorite example of mind fucking a girl through text was this
Girl: You miss me don’t you
Me: Who is this?
Girl: No te gusta?
Me: Julia? Se cayo el telefono y ahora no sirve el sim card. No salen mis contactos.
(The phone fell and now my sim card doesn’t work. My contacts don’t show up.)
Her Spanish may not have been good enough to figure that out, but I guarantee she found someone to translate it. Clearly, this was not Julia I was sending the texts to. She opened up the door when she sent the second text in Spanish.
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It’s not for a porn star look. There are other …… advantages.
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(217):
i’ve decided that sluts are like cars. they may look good as hell on the outside, but you never know what kind of shit is hiding under the hood.
apropos
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“It’s not for a porn star look. There are other …… advantages.”
Care to amplify?
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My favorite from last night:
“HOnestly. That’s my one goal for this whole trip. I don’t give a shit about souvenirs or sand. I want penis.”
On a related note, I created a new PoF profile, using all I have learned from Roissy. My profile basically says, “I am looking for someone fpr hard sex.”
in 3 hours after going live, the count is, 20 emails telling me I made their ginas tingle and one calling me a pig. I have a date set for Saturday with the one calling me a pig…and the rest are being fit into my schedule.
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I’m impressed that those lines work. I honestly am. For me I’m pretty sure if someone mentioned farting, I would be turned off so fast it wouldn’t even be funny. Same about (even jokingly) critiquing my performance in bed. But then again I’m young, sensitive, and a bit of a prude.
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203:
I asked a girl to buy her a drink, she had I have a boyfriend, so I said, well i have a goldfish, she said what? I replied, oh I’m sorry I thought we were talking about shit that doesnt matter.
Besides offering to buy the drink, well played, sir.
@Jay
If she calls you sweetheart, rename her ‘sugar tits’.
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These chicks are traaaaash. I think I might be done with North American white chicks.
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Better accessibility for certain activities, heightened sensitivity.
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DON”T TEXT
It just gives girls an out to resort to their basically vapid nature. Much easier to be alpha on the phone because its so much simpler to take control of the frame and tone of the conversation. Besides the well-established fact that texting is beta.
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Lily
Personally, I love emoticons in text messages. It’s hard to tell tone otherwise sometimes
ha!
i told you bastards right here.
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@ PA
late to the party for sure, but we’ve already documented the exact sound of lozzllzllzl
see here
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Texts from Last Night certainly chronicles repulsive behavior. What is so cool about getting drunk and disgusting? Those posts help to call attention to how trivial such behavior is. It reminds me of people back in the 1960’s bragging about how bad their latest LSD trip was. It’s like people never learn or something. I guess that’s why they had to create traditions, to keep the young people from fucking up over and over.
The idea of secretly recording the conversations of women out on the town is a GREAT idea. If that didn’t wake up men, nothing would. Why couldn’t a woman or a number of women be recruited to do the recording?
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fun post but…
texting…another symptom of womens obsessive complusive commuincating disorder…I do not text and hate, I hate, I hate cell phones.
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“patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
hey, that explains why roissy is an asshat when it comes to politics!”
Wait, didn’t our current VP say that paying higher taxes was patriotic? So you admit he’s a scoundrel?
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“The idea of secretly recording the conversations of women out on the town is a GREAT idea. If that didn’t wake up men, nothing would. ”
It is a great idea.
Could do it with men too, that would certainly wake up a few women…
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The standard Alpha/Beta/0 m e g a taxonomy that’s normally used on this blog is practical enough for the most part, but I like the more precise breakdown blogger Vox Day offers on his site
Here is Vox’s breakdown. Some examples and elaborations are his, some are mine.
Alpha (elite/powerful men)
Examples: Mic Jagger, Henry Kissinger, Mr Big., movie stars, star athletes and rock stars.
Beta (non-elite men who do well with women)
Examples: very wealthy and successful men in general, most PUAs, D-list celebrities, non-star athletes, guys in bar bands, regular guys with excellent Game
Deltas (an average guy; middle of the bell curve)
Examples: regular guys with basic Game; guys you know
Gammas (niceguy pedestalers)
Examples: chronic LJBFs, non-creepy BOTM candidates. It’s important to note that these guys attaract women as asexual ‘beta’ orbiter chumps; as long as they don’t make sexual overtures at girls, they do not creep them out. That’s the next category.
O m e g a (losers/creeps)
Examples: Cho, late-stages Sodini, street bums
Lamdas (gays; they have their own hierarchy)
Exapmles: any gay guy
Sigmas (lone wolves / rebels)
Examples: Clint Eastwood characters
The Sigma is an interesting character. They are rare in real life (though many 0 m e g a s fancy themselves such), but a staple in male-oriented movies, including pretty much every action-movie hero.
In real life, Sigmas are similar to Alpha in having a powerful effect on women and being threatening to actual Alphas, but they walk a thin precipice over 0 m e g a – hood, since being a lone wolf is dangerously close to being wierd and scary.
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Link:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html
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The difference between Alphas and Betas above is not just one of degree, but a qualitative difference:
Betas (successful men, PUAs) still need to seduce women. Alphas (elite men) don’t need to make the effort, as girls throw themselves at them.
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PA, there’s an actual voiceover of lozlolololzzl on the what did i do wrong thread.
i posted a link but it was modded.
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hahaha, “you say something?”
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PA,
interesting breakdown but it almost seems too hierarchical. contemporary society isn’t that formal. there are plenty of men in alpha positions who go home and are beta-ized by shrew wives. there’s no more alpha-male position than president of the united states. in the short-run, the president’s got the power to bring the smack down on just about anybody he chooses either here or in other countries. and how many women would say no to obama right now? despite that, he is probably not even the boss in his own marriage.
on the other side, what about some unemployed musician, with no power and no money, who is banging a different hot broad every night and who doesn’t take shit from anybody? that’s pretty alpha. and we all know guys in a particular social group who every girl in that group would jump at the chance to hook up with. it feels weird calling that guy a beta.
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interesting breakdown but it almost seems too hierarchical. contemporary society isn’t that formal.
I think these categories are broad enough to account for this, as on some level, a man’s degree of appeal to women is universal and cuts across clique and social groups. This taxonomy can be hair-slpit many different ways, but as far as broad categoreis go, I think it’s very serviceable.
there are plenty of men in alpha positions who go home and are beta-ized by shrew wives.
There are overlapping but separate spheres known as “leader of men” and “seducer of women” alpha zones. In many cases they overlap so much they’re meaningless, especially at higher levels, but yeah, sometimes they are different.
In your exampe, this guy would probably be a Beta (wife nags him but cute asistant fantacises about him) or Delta/Gamma (inept with women but with worldly success).
Same applies to your example with the US President. A large part of being a woman-swooping alpha, at the high levels, is not who you actually are, but what you represent. Just look at how some male American Idol contestants grew from anonynous, often dorky guys, to having throngs of screaming girls. In the span of four months.
An average groupie/girl is awestruck by your status. But the wife knows you as a person, and is not in thrall to your extraneous mystique.
on the other side, what about some unemployed musician, with no power and no money, who is banging a different hot broad every night and who doesn’t take shit from anybody?
I’d say, if he’s very good looking plus has great Game, he’s a very high Beta per the above list. Not at Anthony Kiedis’ rock star alpha level, but no mere dude with Game either.
it feels weird calling that guy a beta.
Yeah, I agree, but that’s kind of an artifact of this blog’s many discussions. Think of a king and princes as alpha, while couriers and intrigue-mongering dauphins as beta… while soldiers, artisans and peasants are in entirely different categories.
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@QB
Someone said on a previous thread that the hubs is actually a female to male transsexual and that the couple say they “can’t have sex.”
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@J
I’m flattered, but I think I’m too old for you. I’ve hit the wall.
Just because a woman reaches her 50s doesn’t mean she has no value. She can still be a wonderful mother, grandmother, wife. All of these have great value. But she probably shouldn’t hang out around PUA sites trying to tell those who know better “how it really is” in a generation she has little or no direct experience with.
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@Biktopia
I can’t understand this jerk thing, does that REALLY work??…
Then, after being reminded that asshole game works because women demand it:
i do believe in game, so im at the same page on that topic, its just not always carried out as i would like it to. I don’t think you need to be a jerk or to lie to be able to sell a product, but you could find other less soulkilling ways to sell no?
Man, that must be one tired hamster.
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@PA
In the Vox Day hierarchy, it’s the Beta who, from a woman’s perspective, is the ideal guy, not the chump that many using the simpler scale make him out to be. If that’s a Beta, women love and respect them, not hate them. It’s the Gammas who are the chumps and the Omegas who are hated by women.
Additionally, the Beta’s the backbone of the sort of society that many of you guys fear is dying.
Based on the Vox Day hierarchy, those of you who claim to not want sluts, golddiggers, flakes, etc. should aim towards Greater Betatude. It attracts solid women. Alphas would attract 10s, but also sluts, golddiggers and adventuresses. A women needs a big ability to take risks, a certain amount of manipulativeness, and thick skin to chase the alphas Vox Day describes.
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@ Dalrock
Just because a woman reaches her 50s doesn’t mean she has no value. She can still be a wonderful mother, grandmother, wife. All of these have great value.
I know, I was messing with him. Refreshing to hear from you though….
But she probably shouldn’t hang out around PUA sites trying to tell those who know better “how it really is” in a generation she has little or no direct experience with.
Feel free to ignore me if you think what I have to say isn’t valid. I don’t mind.
Me, I think part of being a wonderful mother is continuing to keep up with the world that influences my kids’ generation, and I’d call raising them “direct contact.”
But you’re married, right? Why are you a regular on a PUA site?
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PA, I have to agree that distinction seems way too arbitrary and try-hard to ever reach common use. People are stupid – anything more than two categories makes their head hurt (see Hollywood movies and good vs evil). Right now it’s simple with 3 categories and if someone wants extra precision, there’s 3 prefixes to use: top, mid, low.
From an intellectual viewpoint the lambda and sigma classifications are pretty interesting, though. Why lambda for gays, though? Because of Turing or Lambda Legal?
And I have to admit that I have never talked to a sigma. The whole concept seems so strange:
Hmm, actually I now remembered two people that might qualify: Adrian Lamo (grey hat hacker) and Julian Assange (Wikileaks spokesman). Linus Torvalds and Stallman might qualify too. But it seems there are 2 ways for a sigma to go: either they get absorbed and become a normal member of society, get destroyed (killed/imprisoned) or become a true alpha much like the revolutionaries throughout history. Bending an entire nation to your will is pretty alpha, isn’t it?
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In the Vox Day hierarchy, it’s the Beta who, from a woman’s perspective, is the ideal guy,
I agree; though in this blog’s common terminology, Vox’s beta would actually be an Alpha.
I have to agree that distinction seems way too arbitrary and try-hard to ever reach common use
It depends on what you’re going after. The alpha-beta (with gradiations within) distinctions we commonly use here are all you need from the practical perspective of how to improve your relations with girls. But if you’re in a more theoretical frame of mind, or just into analyzing thing for fun, Vox’s taxonomy offers more clarity.
Why lambda for gays, though?
Dunno. You’d have to ask Vox.
And I have to admit that I have never talked to a sigma.
The only sigma-like character I’ve seen on this blog is commenter Willard Libby.
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Rand’s Fountainhead gives a good idea of the interactions between them.
Roark sigma
Wynand alpha
Keating beta
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@J
But you’re married, right? Why are you a regular on a PUA site?
As I’ve mentioned before, I’m here to learn LTR game. I had a friend/roommate in college who was a true natural PUA. When I first stumbled on this site I was both horrified and intrigued. But having seen much of this first hand, I couldn’t argue with the truth of it. Now I finally understand what he couldn’t explain (since he was purely a natural). Fortunately for me I studied him closely at the time and learned as much as I could. Now I understand why what I mimicked worked. Lately my wife has been talking about the time we first met. I hadn’t realized how much game I had been using at the time until she started reminding me of the details. I’ve (re) started using game principles in simple ways with my wife since reading this, with very positive results (she is delighted, but blissfully unaware).
Plus, I get tired of reading about programming for audio and video codecs in Linux, hunting, fishing, finance, etc. Variety is a good thing, no?
Me, I think part of being a wonderful mother is continuing to keep up with the world that influences my kids’ generation
The tragedy being you have stumbled into a place with much valuable truth, but have decided to preach nonsense when you could instead learn. As I’ve said before, I fear your sons will pay a high price for this.
BTW, part of my decision to post to you was noticing in a past thread (the one where I calculated your age from) how positively you responded to negs. When I tried to have a serious discussion with you, you lashed out. When others negged you, you responded flirtatiously. I thought I would test this reflex, and wasn’t disappointed. Psychology is a powerful thing, all the more so when we deny it.
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PA
I read some of Willard Libby’s comments and the amount of anger seething from his posts is pretty impressive, but unlikable. That’s not sigma behavior, that’s pure omega and I know it because I used to be like that too. If the amount of hate and loathing contained in a post would be a criterion for sigmaness, then most of 4chan/r9k/ could be considered sigmas, yet they are just omegas and they don’t even want to improve. Reason being their wish to ‘live in a nice little Matrix womb, with your brain jacked onto the hypernet, encased in your own goo and eating your own shit.’
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J —
For a woman in her fifties to have value, something other than a very unmoderated, few-winners, many losers, among men, in the sexual marketplace must be created.
Currently, there is no reason for beta types to really care about a fifty year old plus woman. She’s someone else’s mother, kids as a single mom by an Alpha or string of them.
In order for that archaic, nuclear family oriented society to value women for something other than sex, well …. it requires a nuclear family. Which means controlling/bounding female hypergamy and unlimited choice. Women have it great, pursuit of Alphas, most women can have at least one Alpha one time, and prefer it to a lifetime of beta-men.
But lets not pretend its not without cost. A woman past attractiveness is worthless in this society. That’s the price of Alpha!
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@Dalrock
Interesting explanantion of your motives and early response to this blog. Thanks for sharing that. Sincerely.
Horror and intrigue are the current attractions to me too. Roissy is also a stylish and entertaining writer. I have interestingly enough found a few strategies here that work in reverse and have gamed my husband with them. Like your wife, he seems to be happy and blissfiully unaware. So I have picked up some valuable truths.
“As I’ve said before, I fear your sons will pay a high price for this.”
Well, fwiw, people who actually know my kids wouldn’t share your concerns, but as some random guy on the internet you may know …what concerning them?
‘BTW, part of my decision to post to you was noticing in a past thread (the one where I calculated your age from) how positively you responded to negs.’
That was the first time I posted. I thought the situation was pretty clear without my going into detail. My approximate age wasn’t meant to be secret.
“When I tried to have a serious discussion with you, you lashed out. ”
I felt under attack here that night. Perhaps that’s part of why I read so conscending to you.
“When others negged you, you responded flirtatiously.”
Yep. In part I do enjoy teasing. People who know me, know that I’m a notorious tease (verbally). And like our closest living relative the bonobo, I decided to flirt to diffuse the tension. (Bonobos are lovers, not fighters.)
This also seemed like the audience that would appreciate it. Didn’t someone here say game is just rhetoric? Rhetoric is knowing your audience.
I thought I would test this reflex, and wasn’t disappointed. Psychology is a powerful thing, all the more so when we deny it.”
Indeed, my flirtatiousness got you to respond to me even though I seem like a condescending bitch to you.
BTW, I was going to shoot back a few nasty remarks that night regarding your comments about my kids and the dinner crack you made, but I restrained my self. Comments about kids are always a low blow. Let’s not go there again, OK?
Truce?
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@ Whiskey
Let me put it this way. For me personally, the ideal society puts me right where I am–mom to great kids with loyal beta (the Vox Day scale, maybe alpha here–but not a screw around) husband who provides us with a nice life.
OTOH, I see loads of marriages in my age cohort breaking up due to divorce or death. This blog would lead me to believe that it’s all over for a woman my age. But I get plenty of IOIs in real life from divorced/widowed men I meet in the work world who are actually very similar to my husband–not lower quality. Now, except to feel flattered, I don’t do anything about that. But it’s good to know that, if my husband drops dead tomorrow, I won’t be alone the rest of my life. That hardly threatens the social order, which I, as a mom, have a big investment in.
Now, do I think I’m competiton for some college girl at the local rave? No, I don’t even think I could compete with my 20 year old self, although I wear far less polyester now. (The styles were so terrible back then.) But it surprises me how attractive I really am to men my own age. If someone would have told me this was going to happen even 10 years ago, I’d have never believed it.
Hell, I know 70 year old widows with boyfriends. The game only ends when we die.
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Dalrock.
Direct asshole game works on 20 % of the women, mainly the psychotic, neurotic bipolar ones, game however, works 100%.
I have a loads of friends, and i see who it could work on, they would be nothing else but interested in drama, from all my friends, i would say, 2 out of ten would be into this sort of thing, its just a pure lie you keep telling yourself, but try hit on confident girls with a single game strategy, without bending your game into this or that direction, you wouldnt go far.. you would be able to score 2 out of ten girls with a rigid frame asshole/jerk game.
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@whiskey
“A woman past attractiveness is worthless in this society”
Out of interest, how old are you? Do you know many 50+ women who are divorced or widowed?
What is your idea of ‘past attractiveness’? Attractiveness to whom?
From what I see around, 50+ women who want a man don’t seem to have much trouble getting one. There are plenty of 50+ men who are interested in them. My instinct would be to think that it would be the better-preserved 50+ women who get the men, but I see quite a few couples in second marriages where the man is more physically attractive than the woman.
@ biktopia
I agree with you. I also think game works on 100% of women and I can also understand why the guys who say the smarter girls or ‘good girls’ fall for it more. If you have less encounters with men, then you’re less tuned to tactics they may use and more likely to fall for it. But doesn’t mean that all girls want the asshole game. Obviously some ‘good girls’ may fall for that because they’re unused to game so they like the game part but not necessarily the asshole part. And there’s some girls (probably low self-esteem maybe drama chick, maybe bipolar etc) who do genuinely go for the asshole game and will go for it again and again.
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Roissy, what’s funny is that I use a lot of smiley faces at times, yet I hate people who do the same. Yes, you’re best advised to keep them to a minimum. Sure, you can use one once in a while, but a lot of people use them like they’d be punctuation marks. They’re not, get over it.
Rollo Tomassi, it’s going to be funny when the United States goes broke and all the service sector jobs and cushy governmental jobs go poof. All these feminists will not only have rotten ovaries, but they will also be unemployed and have no prospects of employment.
“For years, women’s progress has been cast as a struggle for equality. But what if equality isn’t the end point? What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women?”
I see, so the postindustrial society is just better suited for women, while before they needed discriminatory laws to still be inferior to men. In the same time, women performances are sort of pathetic all things considered. To be honest, any woman that doesn’t have a gender inferiority complex can admit this. I guess it’s like ConservativeSwede, smart women have no trouble admitting that men are smarter on average. lol. So what I’d like to ask Hanna Rossin is if women needed men to be discriminated against in the past in the name of equality, why not discriminate against women now if women are better fit for jobs in the name of the same equality? But it’s the same as the civil rights crap. It’s not about equality at all.
Jay, that sounds like something I’d be doing. Just joke about it. Tell her that things in between you won’t work out since she’s too clingy, unless she makes up for that flaw of her.
OI, texts are better for another reason too. When a girl has the hots for you and she reads your texts, she will go over the scene that went to that text in her mind. I disagree with you though. Most guys are doormats, at least for beautiful women. If I lived in your city I would have made a bet with you – for example, that I can get 90% of the men of your choice from a bar to buy me a drink. As a stretch and with some bullshitting, I could get some of them to even buy YOU a drink.
biktopia, in the end, it doesn’t matter what he does. If being a jerk gets him laid, that’s life. In my country we have a word about selling and buying. The fool isn’t the seller, the fool is the buyer in this situation – the woman spreading her legs. And please, give me a break, a lot of us act like soulless mercenaries. A guy faking about being a jerk isn’t really that much of a problem. For instance, I care about people. I have to go at great lengths to either hide it or not do it. It’s the same with men – even if they learn game and act like jerks, inside they will still be good people. You also have to realize that working women aren’t that much of an interest to a man. Men have jobs too and they don’t care about yours. So unless you’d be a great mother and a great housewife, I don’t see why if I was a man I’d be interested in anything more than sex. So the girls with who being a jerk would work would be perfect since their personality is irrelevant.
narzheewa, it depends on what you want to achieve. There are more types of women, there are more types of activities that you need to do. But yes, having charm is a leg spreader. I think some poll rigging was involved too. The poli-sci university girls in my city are fairly good looking and I doubt they’re virginal.
Trimegistus, besides that, what is truly hilarious is that we fake a lot more than men. I mean, wearing makeup, pushup bras, high heels isn’t really being genuine.
Lily, I’m a woman. I don’t like feeling special. I like feeling chosen over other women – it’s a better way to describe what I want instinctually. This is why one-itis is a turn off. If I’m your only option, you’re not choosing me over anybody besides your left hand. I also teach men something when listening to women say – the importance of traits is also the order in which they list them. For example, you said interesting, but nice. This means that you only look at interesting men and if they’re nice too, it’s just the icing on the cake. It’s the same when we say contradicting things like I want a strong/confident, but sensible man. What this means is that I want a man who is socially dominant, but occasionally showers me with attention in order to feed my frenzy for validation. The mistake men make is that they think being strong and sensible are as important, but they’re not. If you’re not strong, you can be as sensible as you’d like, but you’re never going to be the one sliding her panties off.
J, I’m not that experienced with one night stands, but I doubt that men care at all about the IQ of the girl they bed. So dumb and young works. Smart and frigid is better? In the end, as a woman, it took me a while to face the reality that the most important thing I can offer to a man that he doesn’t already has is my looks. Then being pleasant company and caring for him. My education and the like are utterly irrelevant, in the end. And game applies to all women on an instinctual level. There are women who override their instincts though, but don’t kid yourself, I doubt that they are that many. I doubt that pretty American women who went to college have any difference in number of sexual partners compared to a pornstar who shot movies for 3-4 years. What you also miss is that if I was a man, I’d take constant sex with 10s, sluts and adventuresses over a marriage any day of the week. Sure, it hurts society, but in order for a sane society, the people who call the shots sex wise – us, women, must be forced to not reward alphas with the easiest access to our pussy. So sex must be within marriage only. Then if I was a man, I’d consider being in the upper echelons of betatude the best thing.
z, unlike most women, I’m honest about sexual things. You could tape every woman in the world and men will still be dumb about women in this culture. I tried to explain these things to some of my male friends and they tell me that I am wrong about how women think. I guess I need breast implants since D cups didn’t really made them realize that I’m a woman and them telling me how WE think is like me telling them what men like about sports.
Grampa, I don’t talk to random women in club bathrooms, but I can tell you what I talk about with my friends related to men. It’s pretty much anything, from how it felt during sex the other night(out of principle, I don’t partake with my experiences since the first time I did it I lost my best friend lol), to how X’s mouth stinks like a sewer in the morning before brushing his teeth, to what a loser the guy from the club was. What women talk about isn’t as important as HOW we talk about things though.
JR, I’d say no to Obama. Actually, if you’d mention his name during foreplay, it would be a bigger turn off than farting. I literally feel repulsed by everything about him and I sadly recall hoping that he ousts Hitlery since I knew more about her trash than his. I would take my dildo over Obama any day. There aren’t that many politicians I’d have sex with though. Politicians aren’t alpha anyway. Just look at Roman Emperor wives shagging the gladiators. 😉
PA, I agree about the groupies. To quote a friend of mine who has quite a few – they literally think about sucking your dick while looking at you perform. lol
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@rebelliousvanilla,
J, I’m not that experienced with one night stands, but I doubt that men care at all about the IQ of the girl they bed. So dumb and young works. Smart and frigid is better? In the end, as a woman, it took me a while to face the reality that the most important thing I can offer to a man that he doesn’t already has is my looks. Then being pleasant company and caring for him. My education and the like are utterly irrelevant, in the end. And game applies to all women on an instinctual level. There are women who override their instincts though, but don’t kid yourself, I doubt that they are that many. I doubt that pretty American women who went to college have any difference in number of sexual partners compared to a pornstar who shot movies for 3-4 years. What you also miss is that if I was a man, I’d take constant sex with 10s, sluts and adventuresses over a marriage any day of the week. Sure, it hurts society, but in order for a sane society, the people who call the shots sex wise – us, women, must be forced to not reward alphas with the easiest access to our pussy. So sex must be within marriage only. Then if I was a man, I’d consider being in the upper echelons of betatude the best thing.
Wow.
You really got it. This is the lesson of game. Men, as a rule, generally do think this way.
But not all men are identical; most men also want a companion. So an attractive woman who talks, is smart and clever, … she really has it all.
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RV,
Great comments. I especially liked
This is why one-itis is a turn off. If I’m your only option, you’re not choosing me over anybody besides your left hand.
and
If you’re not strong, you can be as sensible as you’d like, but you’re never going to be the one sliding her panties off.
But this
I doubt that men care at all about the IQ of the girl they bed.
is not always true — if I met a chick your age who thought like you it would add 2 points to her hotness in my estimation (maybe that is more attitude than IQ; but you get major credit for having figured things out so soon).
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@ Lily
“From what I see around, 50+ women who want a man don’t seem to have much trouble getting one. ”
Yup. And my point in bringing up my personal experiences is that I want other women to be aware that we still have something to bring to the table no matter how mant negative points we can accumulate on this site’s dating market value quiz.
“but I see quite a few couples in second marriages where the man is more physically attractive than the woman. ”
Amazing, isn’t it? Sometimes it’s not what you look like but what you radiate that men respond to. Sexy doesn’t necessarily mean beautiful. Men respond to a woman’s being approachable and fun as well.
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“”biktopia, in the end, it doesn’t matter what he does. If being a jerk gets him laid, that’s life. In my country we have a word about selling and buying. The fool isn’t the seller, the fool is the buyer in this situation – the woman spreading her legs. “”
Jerk game, is malfunctioning strategy, some people just get trapped withing there, and ok, your right they are happy, so i why should that bother me? It makes the world to simple and also ugly, naive as i am.
The advice Roissy gives i interpret this way, if you are a nice guy, try to be a jerk, you will never actually achieve being it for real, but abandon the pedestalizing behaviour would help in the right direction.
But its not the same as being a jerk. I have always completely ignored direct game jerks or assholes as most of my friends, but few of my friends enjoy it.
I don’t believe in inside good people outside asshole, , or nice guys either, its not making sence that the pendulum have to swing so far always..
“”You also have to realize that working women aren’t that much of an interest to a man. Men have jobs too and they don’t care about yours. So unless you’d be a great mother and a great housewife, I don’t see why if I was a man I’d be interested in anything more than sex.”””
heck i dont know what to reply, men are hopefully not this simple, at least not when they have opportunity to choose. I thought guys would understand that its easy to score women when they are 18, and then it would become more interesting with challenges, im not saying work related, but looks and personality related.
I could be jerk to, so, what would i create by being one?
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“i think i might’ve accidentally farted in your cat’s face.”
–now that’s grounds for dismissal.
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@RV
“I’m not that experienced with one night stands, but I doubt that men care at all about the IQ of the girl they bed.”
Most of the guys here would agree. I accept that most men have a looks threshold that can’t be crossed, but even in my prime years, I rejected men who appeared to be attracted only to my looks.
On some level–ask Gorbachev– men want it all and so do we. I’d be offeneded as all hell if my husband told me he married for my boobs. OTOH, he damn well better pay attention to my boob
“In the end, as a woman, it took me a while to face the reality that the most important thing I can offer to a man that he doesn’t already has is my looks.”
Then I hope you look fantastic at 50. If by that time the pleasure of your company doesn’t exceed the pleasure a man gets from looks you’ll be in big trouble because an attractive 50 year old still doesn’t look 20.
“I doubt that pretty American women who went to college have any difference in number of sexual partners compared to a pornstar who shot movies for 3-4 years.”
I really think and hope you’re wrong on that one, but I think the hook-up culture increasingly disheartens young women about their chances of finding a good guy.
“What you also miss is that if I was a man, I’d take constant sex with 10s, sluts and adventuresses over a marriage any day of the week.”
Then, you would be a lot more shallow than the majority of men in this country who do settle down with decent women and raise families. What you are saying is probably not even true, except on a fantasy level, for most men.
“us, women, must be forced to not reward alphas with the easiest access to our pussy. ”
Forced? By whom? How about we use our brains and just start acting in our own best interests instead of convincing ourselves that we are getting something out of the hook-up culture. And by we, I mean, young women. Most of my generation knew that.
“So sex must be within marriage only.”
Good luck with that. I certainly wouldn’t cry bitter tears if society moved back toward that direction in a way that did not curtail other freedoms for women. (Pre – 1980 America vs. nations with honor killings, forced marriages of 12 year olds to 60 year old guys with three other wives)
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@anouk
Actually, that was the one comment on the list that did not offend me.
I don’t understand why some women love cats. If I’m going to feed something that has contempt for me, I’ll give birth to it first and then wait fifteen years for it to develop an attitude. A real kid at least will eventually grow out of it.
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“If I’m your only option, you’re not choosing me over anybody besides your left hand.”
I think there’s a bit of a distinction, though. The guy only needs to act as though you’re not his only option (and not overly invested in or concerned about the outcome either way). As far as actual, tangible options… I don’t think it really matters. Seriously, I’m not going to make dating/mating preferences on collective female opinion. Makes zero difference to me how many females, I mean, flickle, flighty, short-attention span, emotional, attention-whoring bipeds are lined up. Bipeds whose preferences change with the weather. I agree, though, if I were male, it’d be highly unlikely I’d marry. I think I’ve encountered about two tolerable females in the last 5-7 years of my life. I can’t imagine the difficulties guys face. I suppose nature’s solution is the spontaneous erection. Without it, perhaps, we’d be extinct as a species by now.
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[…] if you learn something new Posted on June 12, 2010 by Alkibiades After Chateau’s post yesterday, I spend a little time perusing some of the text messages on Texts from Last Night. As Chateau […]
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@Polymath,
RV,
Great comments.
Agreed. Am I the only one who has the impression that she knocked this amazing multi target post out in 30 seconds with one hand, while sipping a soda or reading a novel using the other hand?
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50+ women may get men, but they don’t get much from them. In other words they get interest from men who can’t play down significantly in age.
Think about it. A desirable man, around age 50, can certainly play down into a woman of 40 or so. I mean sure, a woman Madonna’s age can get interest from a man, paunchy and with sansa-belt slacks.
Interest is however, not value. Its not as if the men that age really care about the women (or vice-versa). There is no tie of sustained memory and decades of intimacy building. Merely the viagra-fueled but flickering interest of something other than golf or what have you.
In a single mom-driven society, a woman’s looks are her only currency. She might get interest from a man her age fueled by viagra, but he’ll forget about her the night after to find someone else.
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Gorbachev, most men don’t think that way, even if instinctually this is how men probably are. Obviously, it takes constant reinforcement of the feminist brainwashing about women for them to not think in this way. And everybody also wants a companion, but that doesn’t override what I said. I doubt men want a hoe as a companion. I was actually talking to a girl about this and she was whining about how men are concerned with her number of sexual partners and how annoying that is and I told her that the only men who do care are those that are interest in having her for more than just sex. If a man wants her just for the warm hole she has in between her legs, then the number of men who have been there is utterly irrelevant. The problem with us, women, is that we want to have our cakes and eat them too. We want both careers and families, we want both casual sex and pleasant relationships, but it’s simply impossible to have it all. And a lot of men want it all too, but life is a thing of trade offs. It’s sad, but this is how things are.
Polymath, the problem is that with your logic, I’d be more than a ten. 😛 And no, if all you wanted is to have me on my back, you wouldn’t care about how I think, you’d care more about how I move in bed. Obviously, if you wanted a relationship with me, probably my personality would become a lot more important since most of the time we wouldn’t shag.
J, obviously we can bring a lot to the table. I’m not referring to what we COULD do, but what we ARE doing as a gender right now. Sure, the importance of being a mother and a home maker, for example, are really big. Proper motherhood is a requirement for civilization, but we’re failing there, sadly. I also agree with you about looks not being everything. Being just easy on the eyes combined with a great personality can up your dating value a lot. My problem is that a lot of women nowadays have a horrible personality. I mean, I wouldn’t have them as friends, let alone see why men would marry or commit to them in any way. In the end, the most important factor for attractiveness is looks, but to seal the deal relationship wise a great personality is more important.
biktopia, I agree with you about making the world ugly. I’m naive and like to think that people are intrinsically good too(I’m idealistic too to top it all), but instinctually we’re not good. Jerk strategy games are a response to women rewarding that. If we didn’t spread out for jerks, men would stop being jerks. You have to realize that men get entire careers in order to bang us. While it seems completely idiotic to me, it makes sense to them. So if we didn’t reward jerk behaviour and we would fall for pleasant men, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I do agree that actually being a jerk, in the sense of treating people in an inhumane, not only hurts others, but long term it won’t have you feel as a fulfilled individual, unless you’re a sociopath. I don’t advise men to treat women like rag dolls. At least I don’t advise them to treat the women that are worthy of more like that. But as long as we will act like idiots, I don’t see why I’d hold men to a different standard, especially when their behaviour is a lot of times a consequence of ours. I also do agree with you about nice guys – a lot of them consider manipulation being nice. I always ask nice guys if they buy their mother’s flowers all the time like they would buy me flowers. Or if they pay the bills of their friends. If they don’t, they’re manipulating me, they’re not simply nice people. In the same time, they’re insecure and I dislike being used as a fix for people’s insecurities. I also agree with you that being a jerk as a woman pays quite handsomely too. There’s a reason why some girls who are no different than me drive by my university in convertible Porsches and BMWs and I use the bus. But in the end, we’re the ones who have the power sexuality wise and we reward idiocy with that power.
J, related to your second post. Everybody wants it all, but in the end it matters what they choose from what’s available. Sure, I want a guy with a Greek God body, yet my boyfriend is skinny. This doesn’t change my desire to really feel overwhelmed by a man’s strength when he puts his arms around my body. And considering I get quite a bunch of marriage proposals, I do believe I’m fairly pleasant to be around. The thing with marriage is that as a woman you’re supposed to trade your youth when you can get laid around and so on to be exclusively of a man so that he sticks around when you’re not young anymore. After you’re already 35, I don’t see why a man would marry you. I do agree about the hook-up culture being a negative for women too long term, but in the end, we’re the ones controlling it. And most men settle because they can’t bed 10s and settling with a good woman isn’t a bad thing. The thing is that the harder it is for men to get casual sex, the easier it is for women to have them commit. This is why sex should be within marriage only, for example. It satisfies both sides. Women get to trade their youth and the looks associated with it for long term commitment, while men get sex long term without stressing all the time about it. I wouldn’t marry simply because the quality of most women isn’t worth it and family law is utterly stupid related to it – family law supported by women, by the way. And by forced, I meant forced culturally – for example, girls not associating themselves with sluts and excluding them socially combined with jerks and players. I never advocated honour killings and the like or forced marriages, for your information. Having a sane society doesn’t mean making it insane in the other direction. And besides, men overall don’t have anything to gain from the marriage of young women to old farts. Young men get screwed in this situation and with no no-fault divorces and monogamy, old men wouldn’t be around young women or be able to marry them anyway.
Name, I agree.
Dalrock, no, I’m writing this comment, for example, while trying to fix my air conditioner. But no matter how cool of a female I am, I’m failing miserably to the point I feel like taking a bat and smashing it off the wall while my room is turning into a frigging oven. I’m not a huge fan of novels overall, since I prefer to read things that actually help me in my life, but I do enjoy reading psychological analysis novels. Funny enough, I do love to read. One of my biggest fantasies is to wake up and have a coffee and read on the porch of my house while wrapped in a blanket while my husband has his breakfast and I kiss him before he goes to work as the way to start the day. 😛 I could spend my whole day reading, to be honest.
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Women are, and always, have been cunts. They are just more open about it nowadays…
You can hit back by being an unrepentant asshole.
—
A few ways I have rewarded flaky and manipulative women over the years.
http://dissention.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/sadistic-behavior-1/
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@ whiskey
Sure that’s one scenario and many 50+ men would fit into that. But there are many many 50 + men who aren’t, I was talking about second marriages, LTRs etc, in most cases both of them will have had children with other spouses/partners previously.
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RV,
I don’t know how typical I am in this regard, but even if I only wanted a very short-term fling the girl’s personality (which includes her intelligence) matters a lot to me — if I had made some sort of connection with her it would be a heckuva lot more fun for both of us.
Obviously, the longer-term the relationship, the more important this is. If I were seeing a hooker maybe it would be 100% based on looks — but I can’t imagine ever seeing a hooker, even though I can very easily imagine having one-night stands, because so much of the satisfaction (for me) comes from the girl actually being into you, rather than faking it.
And I will still find a dumb 9, like Megan Fox, very attractive and tempting — but an 8 with brains and character would absolutely annihilate her even in terms of pure sexual arousal, ignoring any longer-term potential.
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”””””it is possible, with a flexible mind, to hold simultaneously both a firm grip of reality AND a win-win attitude toward love.]”””””””’
Truth,
As long as you realize sex is not necesarily love.
I like to fuck other bitches but I love my wife.
Yes females get much hotter when the wife is in the room or when they see that she is hotter than they.
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One other factor that’s relevant for me, and probably for men in general, is novelty — that adds a point. This is the difference between ONS and STR — a one-night-stand only exceeds the man’s threshold of attraction because of the extra novelty point. (One might even argue that novelty adds two points, one of which wears off after the first night, and the other after a few weeks; that’s not the case for me but may be true for lots of other men.)
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“I think I’ve encountered about two tolerable females in the last 5-7 years of my life. I can’t imagine the difficulties guys face. I suppose nature’s solution is the spontaneous erection. Without it, perhaps, we’d be extinct as a species by now.”
Name, you know now how men feel when mate-shopping. I’m not saying all American men are great catches, but a man looking for a quality woman has to do a lot of looking and hope for some luck. It’s unreal the degree to which the seemingly-opposed enterprises of feminism and tacky women’s magazines have programmed women to be hostile to men and men’s needs.
Men are shifting from marriage to hook-up and/or serial monogamy, and American women are getting the response backwards: instead of producing a better product, one a man would want to commit to and marry, they are upping the “price” and increasing their demands (size of the ring, bitchiness, threshold for their own commitment, etc). And so it goes in a feedback cycle.
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I never got the ring size thing. A man who is pretty comfortable proposed to me and if I said yes, by that criteria I would have got a ring more expensive than the net worth of my parents combined. To be honest, I wouldn’t even want such a ring. My idea of the perfect marriage ring is a white gold one with a small diamond – they sell for about $2000. I’d rather have my husband learn Viennese Waltz for the wedding than buy me a huge ring.
It’s not even just the materialism. The former asks for commitment and dedication, two things neither in marriage. The latter means that I just want expensive crap. Another thing I don’t understand is how the heck did this “the wedding day is for the bride” thing came about. I was discussing this with the man above and he said that I could do the wedding in any way I want and he’d be ok with it since it’s my day. Way to start a marriage wrongly, it should be the day of both spouses. To be honest, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the day if my husband wouldn’t.
These are two other things that I don’t get besides the toilet seat thing. I don’t see why I’d castrate my own husband. My rule is to have both the seat and covers down, but that’s since when you flush, particles from within the toilet fly out and I don’t want them on my toothbrush.
Polymath, I’m glad you’d take me over Megan Fox then. 😛 jk
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Cubic Zirconia or possibly Diamonique if she’s really special
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Polymath
” because so much of the satisfaction (for me) comes from the girl actually being into you, rather than faking it.”
My eternal excuse for banging less attractive females. Too lazy to game and stress 8s-10s
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@whiskey @3:12
I couldn’t tell you about Madonna; I just know that IRL, 50+ widows and divorcees remarry all the time. Which, as opposed to being the belle of the bar, is what they tend to be looking for.
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@RV
“obviously we can bring a lot to the table. I’m not referring to what we COULD do, but what we ARE doing as a gender right now. Sure, the importance of being a mother and a home maker, for example, are really big. Proper motherhood is a requirement for civilization, but we’re failing there, sadly”
Which ones of us are failing? And how? These are certainly the generalities that many of this blog like to trade in, but I don’t know what you are saying that’s of any substance here.
” In the end, the most important factor for attractiveness is looks, but to seal the deal relationship wise a great personality is more important
OK, but then seriously what are you going to do when you turn 50? Many of these guys are saying that looks are their first priority. If the are correct, (and I don’t think they are or all the married ones would be leaving their wives instead of working on their LTR game), what will you do when yours fade? Because the theory here is that smarts and personality are nice in woman, but given a choice between hot and smart, hot wins. Personality is a lovely extra to have if you are hot, but many of these guys say that no one will look at you once you’re not.
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rebelliousvanilla are you really my wife? You both talk the same way and say the same things.
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J,
OK, but then seriously what are you going to do when you turn 50? Many of these guys are saying that looks are their first priority. If the are correct, (and I don’t think they are or all the married ones would be leaving their wives instead of working on their LTR game), what will you do when yours fade? Because the theory here is that smarts and personality are nice in woman, but given a choice between hot and smart, hot wins. Personality is a lovely extra to have if you are hot, but many of these guys say that no one will look at you once you’re not.
No one will look at you as a new prospect, but if you have been in a long-term relationship and have taken care of yourself and stayed in shape, you will still be fuckable in your 40’s and 50’s by your mate even if he prioritizes looks. By itself that will not be enough to keep him if he is attractive enough to get younger hotties, but that combined with personality compatibility and having had kids together will often be enough.
I lucked out because my wife kept her looks unbelievably well (8.5 at age 20, 8.0 at age 48), but the important thing is just to keep enough of your looks to be fuckable, and in an LTR familiarity will turn a 5 into a 6 so this is usually possible with good maintenance.
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@RV
“The thing with marriage is that as a woman you’re supposed to trade your youth when you can get laid around and so on to be exclusively of a man so that he sticks around when you’re not young anymore.’
So are you and your boyfriend getting married? Do you sleep with him? If you do, then you should take your own advice and stop until he marries you. And you should tell all your friends to the same. I won’t guarantee you that trading your youth for his later fidelity will necessarily work out, but it will save you and your friends some wear and tear.
“After you’re already 35, I don’t see why a man would marry you.”
LOL. That’s because you’re under 35. Older women than that, even ones with kids, get married all the time. The biggest problem with older marriages from my vantage point is that it’s harder to get pregnant.
“I do agree about the hook-up culture being a negative for women too long term, but in the end, we’re the ones controlling it.”
Yes, in the end (barring rape and roofies) you do, but I see a lot of college aged women settling for hook-ups because they think it’s all the guys will offer. You all should pull a Lysistrata.
“And most men settle because they can’t bed 10s and settling with a good woman isn’t a bad thing. The thing is that the harder it is for men to get casual sex, the easier it is for women to have them commit. This is why sex should be within marriage only, for example.”
So you’re a virgin?
“It satisfies both sides. Women get to trade their youth and the looks associated with it for long term commitment, ”
Unless you’re dumped for a younger woman despite your fidelity. That was common in my mother’s generation, but those women got alimony.
“And by forced, I meant forced culturally – for example, girls not associating themselves with sluts and excluding them socially combined with jerks and players.’
Well, even so, why do you need the social pressure to make you act in your own best interests? Start with yourself, set an example for a few friends. You’d have to deal personally with consequences of being one of the few girls not putting out, but if you really believe what you are saying, you should go for it. No one ever really suffers for not being the town pump and pump.
“And besides, men overall don’t have anything to gain from the marriage of young women to old farts.”
Except that in most places where there is a repressive social regime and women’s choices are forciably limited it happens. What do the old men gain? Access to what youy are telling is the most valuable commodity of all–young pussy.
‘Young men get screwed in this situation”
Yep, that’s why guys will blow themselves up in hopes of screwing 72 virgins in heaven. A lot of violence in may parts of the world comes from young men not having access to age mates.
“and with no no-fault divorces and monogamy, old men wouldn’t be around young women or be able to marry them.”
I’m not understanding you here. No matter what the divorce laws are like, older men still will have access to younger women and be able to be monogamously to them. Or are you saying a monogamously married man won’t cheat?
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Hi Polymath,
“No one will look at you as a new prospect,”
You mean that an older women can’t attract new men? Or that no one will see her as “fresh out of the box”?
“but if you have been in a long-term relationship and have taken care of yourself and stayed in shape, you will still be fuckable in your 40′s and 50′s by your mate even if he prioritizes looks.”
I know women older than that who still enjoy a nice sex life with their husbands, so I expect to keep mine interested for a long time to come.
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@Polymath
” because so much of the satisfaction (for me) comes from the girl actually being into you, rather than faking it.”
My husband would agree with you, fwiw. He also never screwed drunk or high girls for that reason.
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Hilarious. Seeing in words how women really thinks is always amusing.
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@ Seeing in words how men really thinks is always disturbing. 🙂
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Off topic, but I have a question on how to deal with hater girls:
Backstory- I bartend on the weekends in a popular bar in town and had some girls tip me last night by sutffing money down my shirt, so I put it as my facebook status, I figured it’d be a good DHV to all my friends.
Facebook Status: I’m NOT a stripper, the money goes in the tip jar, not down my shirt!
Stupid jealous ex girlfriend on facebook: yeah right ha
Me: I mean it! I’m not a stripper…
Stupid Ex: you just wish people would do that
Me: yeah, totally, except that it happened.
Stupid Ex: you just fantasized it happened
Me: sure
that’s all I got, but is there a better response than this? I’d like to know how to deal with people who try to hate with out looking like I’m trying to prove myself to them or being an asshole
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some feedback from roissy would be greatly appreciated
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@ Anonymous
I see it as one of these:
1. she still likes you in that way and it was a ‘neg’
2. she doesn’t want anything (she may or may not still have feelings for you) but is carrying around negative feelings from your breakup so insulting you
Maybe instead of “Me: yeah, totally, except that it happened”
maybe something like
“hah hah, sure from hotactressname type’
and then if she’d said something negative after that,delete her comments and take her off your FB list. You don’t need negative people in your life.
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” It’s unreal the degree to which the seemingly-opposed enterprises of feminism and tacky women’s magazines have programmed women to be hostile to men and men’s needs.”
Tacky. You got that right. And I still buy them from time to time (mostly for amusement), but the list of absurdities I’ve read over the years is unreal.
One that stands out from Cosmo or Glamour many years ago: a late 30-something female “warning” young women with this advice: married sex is much different than sex while single. Make sure you sleep around as much as you can before you get married. Yeah, seriously. That’s almost verbatim what she said. A Roissysphere translation: 20-something slut riding the cock carousel (with free ticket from beta orbiter) becomes aging 30-something hag whose biological clock wakes up deaf neighbor it’s beating so loudly) that she marries the first beta provider who mistakes her “experience” for empowerment. Or something like that.
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On the topic of RV’s IQ being a dating value negative, I see two sides to it:
1) When a woman has a trait which generally doesn’t add dating market value for women, but mistakenly thinks that it should, this in itself would cause a loss in market value (at least for LTR). Generally I think this boils down to expecting to be rewarded for male market value traits they have as if they were a man, but otherwise rated as a woman. This is much the same thing that Bictopia doesn’t understand about how having a great career doesn’t make her a better catch. As I’ve said before, I think many misunderstandings boil down to misapplication of the golden rule. Offer me what I want, not what you would want.
2) For a woman being higher IQ comes with the same challenge that being tall does. While being smart is a slight positive to men she might want to date/marry, it creates a high minimum on the IQ of the men she will be attracted to. Tall guys can date tall or short women. But women feel the need to date guys at least as tall as them if not taller. The same generally goes for IQ. So off the bat, she has to “spend” more of her market value on IQ that she might have spent on looks, personality, etc. But it could be worse than that, because she could end up purchasing that higher IQ at a greater premium than other women would be willing to spend (because she has to have it). Her trade-offs are different than women in general, because of her unusual situation. This is compounded by the fact that the dating “market” we are talking about lacks the benefits of currency; it is effectively a barter market (mutual coincidence of wants). As an analogy, imagine that you want to participate in one of those vacation schemes where two families decide to stay in each other’s homes to avoid hotel costs, etc. You have a very nice home, which pretty much anyone in the program would love to stay at. However, you are highly allergic so you can only stay at homes with no history of pets (ever), special carpets, paints, etc. Chances are if you go through with the transaction that you will end up swapping with someone with a far less desirable home (by normal standards) than you could have otherwise chosen. You will have to give up a great deal to “pay” for features which the general market doesn’t value nearly as highly as you do.
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J, by us, I mean women as a gender. In case you missed it, 50% of marriages end in divorce and 80% of divorces are wanted by women. This is just an example. And I already answered the second part of your post. polymathblogger gave a fairly good answer too. Also, nothing is 100% accurate and no, I’m not a virgin, but unlike a lot of women, especially in the West, I had sex with only a single man for the whole duration of my university so far and I’m graduating next year. I hardly got prostitute numbers of sexual partners. And I do know that older women than 35 get married, but I was just saying what I’d do if I was a man. I’d rather stay single if I’m 35 too. I’d marry a 35 woman only if I’m 55 or so.
And you need social pressure for a lot of reasons. I’m a good looking woman. My interests are different than the ones of a 40 years old woman married to a rich man. I can pretty much shatter their marriage for her husband’s money. You see, I’m acting in my self-interest, right? In the same way, I can easily marry someone and divorce him in a couple of years later and increase my net worth 500 fold. So I’m not really acting in my self-interest. First of all, to pull this rhetoric, you’d have to repeal all the laws that transfer money from men to women – welfare, healthcare provisions, alimony, child support, anything in divorce. Then you’d have a balanced playing field. And I’d still have a different interest than you. It would level the competition among men and women, but within the female sex we’d still compete.
Oh, and last century we didn’t have polygamy, FGM or any of that crap so give me a break. And yes, provided big enough disincentives, monogamous old men won’t cheat. Let’s suppose that the punishment for that is torturing them to death. How many of them would cheat?
Name, yes, I recall being 15 or so and reading those magazines about how to please guys in bed and I laugh out. The only things worth reading in those magazines are the fashion parts.
Timitz, is that a pick-up line?
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Badger
Or maybe it’s not a feedback cycle. Women don’t give a shit what men think, unless it brings them money.
Now that women don’t need security for bottom line, you’d better bring a hell of of lot more than bottom line if you want to play provider.
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If you don’t want to LOOK like you are trying to prove yourself, then DON’T prove yourself.
Your problem is that because you care about this girls feelings, and your feelings, you are letting HER play you. You have no clue that she is making you jump through her little emotionally fired hoops, that she has puppet strings attached to your wrists and lips.
When she sarcastically implies that you are lying, agree and amplify. I’m not talking here about agreeing and amplifying the meaning of what she is saying. I mean agree and amplify the intent of her barb. Barb back. Say “don’t question me bitch”.
And drop it until she apologizes. If she gets apoplectic and and says “I can’t believe you said that”, either don’t reply or say “ya, I said it”.
You got to nip these games in the bud.
STOP BEING KIND TO BITCHES!
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Hater twat “That never happened”
Translation: Either suck up to me or I’ll push you out from my inner circle forever.
You: “Go twaddle amongst your inner circle”
You see? Agree and amplify. She is telling you you are on the outs, and you agree. You are on the outs. Then amplify. Push her away. HARD.
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Anonymous, in my opinion, the best response to a bitch is no response.
That goes for the male or female kind. I’m a woman, so I have a little wiggle room to actually tell someone to go to hell or that they’re being stupid, but as a guy, the best thing to do is withdraw attention when a girl (you like, and who might like you) is being dumb.
Save conversations deeper than greeting and general news and commentary for face to face. Guys should be very conservative about texting. Each one above maybe two, between calls or actual encounters, gets you closer to the Friend Zone Creepy (Read Annoyingly Beta) division.
Texting is how we share gossip with our girl and Gay friends that we don’t want others to hear us talking about. For some of us, it’s how we arrange downlow bootycalls. If you’re not the bootycall, lay off the texting.
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Or, you could say:
You’re reminding me of a friend who I call by her only by her nickname. I call her Hater Tater ’cause she’s a tater tot hater twat.
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xsplat,
“Or maybe it’s not a feedback cycle. Women don’t give a shit what men think, unless it brings them money.”
This is where the fiat bankers come in, by raising the standard of living and increasing women’s demands.
The “have it all” entitlement of today’s American female has nearly destroyed society.
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More to xsplat,
“Or maybe it’s not a feedback cycle. Women don’t give a shit what men think, unless it brings them money.
Now that women don’t need security for bottom line, you’d better bring a hell of of lot more than bottom line if you want to play provider.”
I think you are mostly right. It’s not a male-female feedback cycle, it’s a cycle within the female brain. Women are now encouraged (especially in college) to slut it up in their 20’s, but when they want to get married, they try to refurbish their value by putting up lots of demands as a colossal shit test for Cpt Beta, who never would have gotten near her pants in her carousel days.
They don’t get that they have already devalued their personal psychology on the carousel, and they aren’t good candidates for marriage no matter how big their ring is.
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Badger
Society? What’s that?
I’m all for feminism. Go feminism.
Love it.
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Badger
It’s not a matter of encouraged. It’s that women are no longer financially discouraged.
Don’t overestimate social pressures, and don’t underestimate primate pleasures. Women love money and sex. Rarely both from the same person.
There is no possibility of putting the genie back in the bottle. Once women are emancipated financially, and once they have birth control, they will have no reason to not expect huge payments from men who she doesn’t primarily value for sex.
Women have zero need to refurbish anything. Zero need to worry about slutting it up. It simply does not matter to them. Most certainly can land a beta, once they want one.
Our only choice, as men, is if we want to play the alpha fucking the young hotties until we are ready settle down, or if we want to try to force some young hottie to settle for us.
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@Polymath
I can’t imagine ever seeing a hooker, even though I can very easily imagine having one-night stands, because so much of the satisfaction (for me) comes from the girl actually being into you, rather than faking it.
I’m curious about your thoughts on “wifely duty” sex. I wouldn’t want to make a steady diet of it (something has gone terribly wrong in that case), but from time to time you are going to be in the mood when she isn’t, and if she loves you most wives wouldn’t deny their husbands.
Hopefully no big surprise so far, but what has surprised me is how incredibly hot this can be. Maybe it is just the change-up from the “usual” of mutual passion & desire. I also think game can explain this since it is an act of love/devotion/submission. Either way it is incredibly sexy for both sides in the same way that taking her while she is asleep is. My only complaint is that after the fact I’m the one wanting to go to sleep and she is pawing me for round two. If only all of life’s problems could be like this!
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«”because so much of the satisfaction (for me) comes from the girl actually being into you, rather than faking it.”
My eternal excuse for banging less attractive females. Too lazy to game and stress 8s-10s»
But one of the assumptions of game is that women cannot be into you (because most reward with sex the men who make their gina tingle), so what you can achieve is just getting laid.
A lower status woman according to game is less stress not because she is more into you, but because her gina tingles with less frequent displays and of lower status…
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@RV
” by us, I mean women as a gender. In case you missed it, 50% of marriages end in divorce and 80% of divorces are wanted by women.”
There is so much wrong with your argument here. For one, you are answering my question about your comment about failing as mothers with a statistic about divorce–and one that most sociologists question the validity of anyway. That particular stat was gathered by comparing the new marriage and divorce rate in one particular place on one particular year. For example, in X County in 1997 there were 200 marriages and 100 divorces, therefore the divorce rate was 50%. The true divorce rate can only be arrived at by doing longitudinal studies of cohorts of married couples. No one has done that because of the expense. The 80% of divorces initiated by women–well, I’d like to see some proof of that. On a positive note, the divorce appears by some measures to be falling, although more and more older women with job/retirement benefits do seem to be opting out of marriage when the kids are grown. Google “silver divorce.”
I’d still love to know your slant as a non-parent (Presumably, you aren’t a single mother.) about the failings of women who are actually raising kids.
“I hardly got prostitute numbers of sexual partners.”
Yet you are so sure everyone else has? How so?
“And I do know that older women than 35 get married, but I was just saying what I’d do if I was a man. I’d rather stay single if I’m 35 too. I’d marry a 35 woman only if I’m 55 or so.”
That may well be your personal prefence, but you shouldn’t assume that you speak for the average guy. By most measures, most men marry women onlyh a few years younger than themselves
“And you need social pressure for a lot of reasons. I’m a good looking woman. My interests are different than the ones of a 40 years old woman married to a rich man. I can pretty much shatter their marriage for her husband’s money.”
I do see rich married men screwing young women, but very few leave wives for them. Too expensive both emotionally and monetarily. And few men leave wives for mistresses. Generally, the mistress breaks up the marriage and is dumped, then the guy moves on the next girl–you know, someone who wasn’t so slutty that she’d sleep with a married guy.
“You see, I’m acting in my self-interest, right?”
No, usually not, see above.
“In the same way, I can easily marry someone and divorce him in a couple of years later and increase my net worth 500 fold.”
Rarely is that the case. I doubt that anyone rich enough to “increse your net worth 500 fold” wouldn’t have you sign a pre-nup. Even without a pre-nup in an alimony state, you a judge give you millions based on a few years of marriage. Google Roxanne Pulitzer; she married a Pulitzer, behaved ALONG WITH her husband in many disgusting ways and then lost her kids. She walked away with a cent.
But, you still haven’t told me why a young women as full of strong opinions as you are needs social pressure. If you really believe the things you are saying, why not act on them? Are you engaged? Do you have a ring and a date? Are you not getting older? It would be in your self-interest to stop haveing sex with you boyfriend until he marries you. If he doesn’t I can guarantee that you he will be not be your last notch on your belt. You don’t need social pressure to act on that, unless of course you don’t want to.
“Oh, and last century we didn’t have polygamy, FGM or any of that crap so give me a break.”
Not here, no. Where force as you mentioned is an issue those things are still part of the equation. So, give me a break and define your terms.
And yes, provided big enough disincentives, monogamous old men won’t cheat. ”
Name me one society where this has been the case.
“Let’s suppose that the punishment for that is torturing them to death. How many of them would cheat?”
Wow, that really is hypothetical because I can’t think of a single society that has ever imposed death or torture on adulteresses but hasn’t let their male partrners go scot free, except when the women was the wife of a higher ranking man. And even there it still happens.
One more question? Are you really a young woman? I’ve never seen a college girl as worried about how older men fare in divorce court as you are?
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@ Name
“One that stands out from Cosmo or Glamour many years ago: a late 30-something female “warning” young women with this advice: married sex is much different than sex while single. ”
Such bad advice. The intimacy and warmth, dare i say here, the love involved in married sex is so freeing. The more time that goes, by the better it gets. It’s like having 20 years of foreplay where your day to day life is the foreplay.
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@J
The more time that goes by the better it gets.
Good to see something we can agree on. Now I’ll look forward to the barrage of insightful comments about how I’m a sucker for being married, etc.
BTW, I never intended to take a shot at your sons. My intent was to rattle you out of your unwillingness to learn, for their sake.
Lastly, my comment above was specifically directed to Polymath (another married man on the forum), but I’d be interested in your take on “wifely duty” sex as well.
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Dalrock,
What J just said.
Also, if there is not some physical issue making sex painful, uncomfortable, or dangerous, “not being in the mood” is simply not an acceptable excuse. My wife figured this out a few years ago and was amazed to see how much better sex got. It’s partly a practice-makes-perfect effect and partly a “tiding-over” issue — having sex frequently makes you more physically and mentally ready for it at all times.
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Thanks Polymath. I think we are on the same page, although I’m not sure you read the specific post where I originally asked this (11:13).
But either way like I said I think we are on the same page. Her not being in the mood almost always turns into something completely different either part way through, or immediately after.
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@Dalrock
1) When a woman has a trait which generally doesn’t add dating market value for women, but mistakenly thinks that it should, this in itself would cause a loss in market value (at least for LTR).
I have a sincere question about this. I can see why IQ is unimportant to smart (or any) men in terms of pump and dumps, but that a bright guy, even if looks or any other factor were more important to him, wouldn’t want a woman for an LTR who is also bright seems counter-intuitive to me.
“Bictopia doesn’t understand about how having a great career doesn’t make her a better catch. ”
That I do understand. If the woman intends upon not having kids and/or working at a high paying career fulltime for the course of a marriage, then it’s important to a small segment of guys. But most men don’t want to be supported by their wives, and I’d be suspicious of one who did.
“For a woman being higher IQ comes with the same challenge that being tall does… it creates a high minimum on the IQ of the men she will be attracted to.”
That’s for sure.
“So off the bat, she has to “spend” more of her market value on IQ that she might have spent on looks, personality, etc. But it could be worse than that, because she could end up purchasing that higher IQ at a greater premium than other women would be willing to spend (because she has to have it).”
That makes a sort of sense, but I would not urge women to “settle” because they are bright. My strategy, once I decided I was serious about getting married, was to figure out what I really needed from a man and what I really didn’t need. Then I made sure that I was not wasting time on men outside of the demographic of men that I do know I appeal to, and I concentrated my efforts on those I knew it would appeal to. It wasn’t that hard to find a guy who fit into the space where the categories overlapped.
To continue your time-share metaphor, I knew that what I had to offer wasn’t for everyone, so I concentrated my marketing efforts where they would do the most good.
I’m sure the question on your mind then is why I married later. So before you ask it, I’ll tell you that my parent’s marriage was not one that would have running toward the altar.
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@J
I have a sincere question about this. I can see why IQ is unimportant to smart (or any) men in terms of pump and dumps, but that a bright guy, even if looks or any other factor were more important to him, wouldn’t want a woman for an LTR who is also bright seems counter-intuitive to me.
It isn’t that bright men don’t value IQ, it is that it isn’t as high on the list of needs that I think you are putting it as. For most men it is far more desired to be loved and admired, than to have stimulating conversation with a LTR for example. We can always have fascinating conversations with our guy friends, but they can’t fill that other need. For women having stimulating intellectual conversation with friends isn’t such a sure bet (be honest…), so having this in a LTR is more valuable.
I presume your next question is “but what if love and admiration are equal, isn’t higher IQ still better”? It is, but this is the paradox that I was trying to address earlier. If she thinks she is more valuable for being smart, she is actually far less desirable.
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@J
My strategy, once I decided I was serious about getting married, was to figure out what I really needed from a man and what I really didn’t need.
The secret of life!
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“Now I’ll look forward to the barrage of insightful comments about how I’m a sucker for being married, etc. ”
I won’t go near that, and I’m glad you are getting some in your marriage, but everyone touting the benefits of their marriage must understand that happy, sexed-up marriages are probably a thin minority of married couples. Any married man who frequents game/PUA sites especially should be aware of that.
It’s my contention that many (20-50%) adults today are ipso facto unfit for marriage, men AND women. Despite what women’s magazines want to nag on with their “why hasn’t he proposed yet?!?!?” articles, it’s not the natural state of humanity, and certainly not the natural state of a man with options unless certain hearth-and-home personality traits are present, and I don’t think society should be encouraging it with various politicized incentives.
It’s no secret that lots of people approach marriage from the wrong perspective…”our relationship is so great, we should make it better by getting married!” in the vein of “our dog is wonderful, we should breed her and she’ll have wonderful pups!” It’s a prisoner’s dilemma – if you both agree to undertake the challenge, the benefit is huge, but if one of you decides it’s not worth it, you are both better off going your own way.
So I’m not going to call you a sucker, and I’m happy yours is happy…but I will say that any happy spouse has a lot of luck.
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@Badger
It’s my contention that many (20-50%) adults today are ipso facto unfit for marriage, men AND women.
No disagreement here, although I think you may be a bit too generous. As I’ve written previously, I think a man’s default position on marriage (2.0) should be: “Sure I love you and all, but why the F*** should I marry you?”
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“My strategy, once I decided I was serious about getting married, was to figure out what I really needed from a man and what I really didn’t need.”
Brilliant advice, but often unheeded. I heard from a friend what he told his college-age daughter a few years back. “Take out a piece of paper and put down what you want in your husband in order of importance.”
“Now cross off all but the top two, ’cause you won’t be able to screen for more traits than that.”
Her response?
“I shouldn’t have to settle.”
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“Also, if there is not some physical issue making sex painful, uncomfortable, or dangerous, “not being in the mood” is simply not an acceptable excuse.”
This sort of excuse just shows the degree to which we don’t need terrorism or fiat bankers to destabilize us, since we allow our own society to degenerate right under our noses.
Things like sexless marriages and widespread obesity should not be seen as normal in any way. They should be seen as sicknesses, or freakish exceptions. We should be disgusted and shocked.
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“No disagreement here, although I think you may be a bit too generous. As I’ve written previously, I think a man’s default position on marriage (2.0) should be: “Sure I love you and all, but why the F*** should I marry you?””
I don’t think many women really want to understand that you can have a great, loving relationship with somebody who means the world to you, but still not want to marry them. More men get this, but even a lot of guys are still in the “getting married is what you do after you date for a while” pretty lie.
Some people want to use a marriage proposal as a proxy for a deeper expression kind of love, and a shaming shit-test blackmail – “if you LOVE me you’ll want to marry me!” Another pretty lie. Love and marriage are completely different enterprises!
My outlook on dating got simultaneously worse and better when I realized that a good slice of people are unfit for dating or marriage at all, and the ones who were left over, most weren’t compatible with me. This meant I’d have to expect to date 10-20 women to find one that fit me even halfway decently.
Better because I could rationalize the problems weren’t all mine. Worse because I knew I’d have a lot of mining ahead of me.
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My laptop rebooted before I commented, so I will make it briefer than it was.
Dalrock, this is why you use a weighted average to calculate one’s dating market worth. So you use a coefficient on my intelligent to adjust it based on your interest. It’s the same with how you calculate a man’s worth. And I don’t have to pay a premium based on a man’s intelligence since the dating market has a high enough atomicity(since you like economics comparisons, here’s an economic premise for you).
About wifely duty sex, I don’t see a problem that a tad of foreplay can’t fix. I mean, even if I’m not in the mood, I can get in the mood. Or I can just give a blowjob. lol. Also, as it was said before, the intimacy of sex with someone you care about is way better than just one nighters, even if they can be more passionate in the lust sense. You’re also not a sucker if you married someone who is good enough for it. But marriage is like this if you are a man – there are no victims, only volunteers.
But yes, I think my intelligence has worth, but not that much of it in the dating game. It’s more like a differentiation trait, since most beautiful women are stupid. I don’t really think that I deserve the world for being intelligent and I do think men would care more for my other traits. Related to career, if I’d be a dude, I’d actually consider it as a negative for long term relationships, since I’d want kids and career women are less likely to take time off for them or care for them in an effective way. At best it would be something I could care the less about.
xsplat, it’s not about being financially discouraged, but being financially encouraged. If you remove alimony, child support, redistributive divorce laws, welfare and affirmative action… Rich beta men already have a few wives and a bunch of children, at least financially. Besides, when the service sector economy will implode and the federal government will go bankrupt all the cushy jobs for women will disappear, probably along with the affirmative action which is based in this paradigm.
Anonymous, taking a non-representative sample is irrelevant when you discuss the validity of data. It’s like saying that over 90% of the US population is white because the one of NH is. All the data I quoted can be found in the American Law and Economics Review and other sources. Also, a single mother is a failed mother, considering how poorly adjusted their children are. 40% of US births are out of wedlock. The average length of the American marriage is seven years. Considering the financial cost that it entails on men, I highly advise all men I know to not marry. Related to my wealth increase by marriage, the man told me that we would get a prenup if I really want one, but he’d have no trouble with putting half his wealth on my name when we’d marry since he doubts I’d divorce. I wouldn’t even have to go to court for it. Also, I’m not married since I will marry if I will have children. Considering how utterly idiotic the world is, I’m having doubts about doing that. Anyway, considering your intellectual dishonesty, I will end this debate here since it’s boring me. Oh, and spare me the hubris of you not being intellectually dishonest.
Badger, the mistake your friend did is that she should list the things that she can offer to a man compared to what she is asking for.
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Badger,
I agree with what you wrote, but my point was slightly different. Most women aren’t worth the risk of marriage 2.0, even if you really love them. They need to bring something very special to the table to justify it. As I’ve said elsewhere virginity could be one such thing (but still not sufficient), as would be some way to demonstrate real commitment to marriage. And of course the chemistry and attraction are must haves as well. My wife brought the needed combo to the table and made her case effectively, and all of the other women who wanted to marry me didn’t.
I think many women are starting to get this, because even though there are still plenty of pre programed beta zombies droning “mmm, must… marry…” these generally aren’t the guys women want to marry.
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@RV
Badger, the mistake your friend did is that she should list the things that she can offer to a man compared to what she is asking for.
Bookend to J’s secret of life above.
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@RV
And I don’t have to pay a premium based on a man’s intelligence since the dating market has a high enough atomicity(since you like economics comparisons, here’s an economic premise for you).
Guilty as charged on economics (BA). The problem with atomicity when discussing your market value is one can’t place a market value on something which never sells. All we can say is it was overpriced…
But the way you choose to view this has great psychological value. In reality you will pay a price, but by starting only looking at those in your consideration set you avoid getting fooled into thinking you can afford something you really can’t and then being disappointed.
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It’s really much less complicated that y’all are making out. The most important factor by far in a decision to marry is whether you want children.
If you are a man, and you want children eventually, you should want to get married because it will be much better for your children.
If you are a woman, and you want children eventually, you should want to get married because it will be much better for your children, and furthermore you should act quickly on this because your fertility and attractiveness drop much faster than you probably expect.
If you are a man, and you do not want children, you should not want to get married because the costs outweigh the benefits.
If you are a woman, and you do not want children, I don’t have any particular advice on whether or not you should marry.
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@BadgerNation
“I don’t think many women really want to understand that you can have a great, loving relationship with somebody who means the world to you, but still not want to marry them.”
I think this is linked to Roissy’s assertion of the differences (reproductive) between men and women. Sure it make sense on a philosophical perspective but on a personal basis, for a woman every minute you spend in a relationship that doesn’t have a long term future is a minute off your biological clock.
@Dalrock
At the moment, I don’t feel that I would get any benefit from another marriage. If anything. if looking from a selfish angle I would lose. Both financially (unless I married a rich man) and ‘control’ of any children. From that perspective, I would be better off in a long term relationship rather than a legal document.
But I’m old-fashioned as I think it’s better to see it as bigger commitment (roman style joining of fortunes, I’m not some big career woman but I have built up enough money to not have to work whilst I have young children without necessarily being dependent on my partner), I want to have the same surname as my life partner and I want them to have rights over their children (and I’m not unique in this, I know several women who did not particularly believe in marriage to the extent that I do but got married so their partners would feel more secure).
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@rebelliousvanilla
“Also, a single mother is a failed mother, considering how poorly adjusted their children are.” 40% of US births are out of wedlock. The average length of the American marriage is seven years. Considering the financial cost that it entails on men, I highly advise all men I know to not marry”
This makes no sense. If you highly advise men not to marry, on a greater scale, does that not mean more single mothers?
[editor: only if women are inherently selfish about procreating. ruh roh!]
Or are you saying people shouldn’t have children?
[things fall apart. the center cannot hold. mere dystopia is loosed upon the world.]
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Dalrock, I don’t market my intelligence as the reason why men should want me. It’s just a bonus. It’s like when you buy a phone nowadays – just look at the package and how nice it is done. Basically, this is how intelligence is. Nobody buys an iPhone for how nice the packaging is, but they do like it. As I have some marketing knowledge, I know that you can’t sell a crappy product that consumers don’t want. This isn’t what I’m doing with intelligence. What I’m doing with it is just what vendors do with their product packaging, which is the most important part of marketing(if I recall Kotler’s position on it correctly).
And obviously I will pay a price. You do that for everything, but I’m lucky since the IQ distribution for men is flatter so there are a lot more men intelligent than me. 😉
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@rebelliousvanilla
” I mean, even if I’m not in the mood, I can get in the mood. Or I can just give a blowjob”
Wow, this just shows how women can be really different from each other. To me, a blowjob is something I am really into at the time.
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@Lily
@rebelliousvanilla
“Also, a single mother is a failed mother, considering how poorly adjusted their children are.” 40% of US births are out of wedlock. The average length of the American marriage is seven years. Considering the financial cost that it entails on men, I highly advise all men I know to not marry”
This makes no sense. If you highly advise men not to marry, on a greater scale, does that not mean more single mothers? Or are you saying people shouldn’t have children?
Lily,
This is exactly what most people mean when they say this. Having children now – with marriage legally set up the way it is, and with women behaving the way they are – is a disaster for men. An utter social disaster.
Anyway, men are doing this. The birth rate in every western country is way below replacement. The only reason population is growing is through immigration – the old populations are being replaced by newer foreign cultures.
There’s just no economic, personal or legal incentive for men to get married. Feminism stripped anything of value from marriage, and made having children a crushing burden for men if the woman leaves for any reason.
There’s just no good reason to play the terrible game of marriage and kids when the woman has almost all of the power.
Like someone said: Marriage 2.0 is a trap. And the exit is boobytrapped with explosives.
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Lily, I advise men not to marry based on how things are. And I advise men not to marry a type of women that sadly engulfs most women and considering how laws are marriage is a sham for men. The single motherhood phenomenon isn’t one created by men, but by women. Part of the same phenomenon is the reason why I don’t see why a man should marry. Basically, given the current laws, for a man marrying is like walking through a mine field without a mine detector. As long as the laws are what they are, men should consider all women a divorce risk and act accordingly. Given the risk, marriage in general has too little rewards. If things would be fixed, both the risks would disappear and single motherhood would go down. Single motherhood is a problem because there are enough incentives to be a single mother and not enough disincentives. For men, the situation is the opposite. Basically, this would force women to actually change their behaviour in a way that would decrease single motherhood and make marriage worthwhile.
And your biological clock assertion doesn’t describe the full picture. That shows only women after 30. The younger ones apparently have no problem with wasting their biological clock on the cock carousel.
About blowjobs, obviously if I give one, I will be into it. It’s just a lot easier to get in the mood for that than to have sex. I can give one without being aroused and enjoy it, while I can’t have sex without being aroused and enjoy it.
Polymath, as a man, even if you want children, you must take into account the risk of divorce, which would mean not seeing your kids while paying for them. I do agree in general with what you say though.
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@rebelliousvanilla
Well I see you’re qualifying it with certain type of woman now rather than just advising not to marry at all. Just as well as otherwise you’d have to advise your fiance not to marry you.
I don’t know where you live, I’m assuming in eastern europe somewhere but certainly where I live there are no financial advantages of being a single mother rather than a married mother. The only financial advantage would be to a woman with no financial options except welfare. The married woman wanting a divorce regardless of alimony or child support she may get is going to be financially worse off. As well as the social issues, regardless of what some of the media may like to portray.
“And your biological clock assertion doesn’t describe the full picture. That shows only women after 30. The younger ones apparently have no problem with wasting their biological clock on the cock carousel.”
It does not just show over 30s, there are plenty of females in their 20s who are in a LTR which doesn’t end up in marriage.
“About blowjobs, obviously if I give one, I will be into it. It’s just a lot easier to get in the mood for that than to have sex. I can give one without being aroused and enjoy it, while I can’t have sex without being aroused”
Well as I said, we’re different, not all women are the same.
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I do believe I’ve been paraphrased.
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Lily, sure there are. Considering the state doesn’t ask you to be a good mother, which a father might and all things considered, you get something for nothing. Then when you consider child support and so on, it’s a legitimate choice to make – being a single mother. The problem is that you look at the accounting cost, not at the economic one. In the economic one, you must consider the money that leisure, for example costs for someone. Or not doing something they don’t like. For example, when you start a business, you calculate the NPV of the start-up money and what you’d make as an employee, you don’t have to just strike even or make $1. It’s the same here. If you amount all the other factors, single motherhood becomes a legitimate choice. And I advise men not to marry based on how things are. If things would be different, I’d advise them to do it.
And yes, everybody who is in a LTR with which the man isn’t willing to commit aimed too high. A man will be willing to shack you up, even if he doesn’t sees you as marriage material or as good enough for him.
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@rebelliousvanilla
You make a good point on economic versus accounting, I will mull it over.
Re women and LTRs in their twenties, I don’t think it’s very fair for say a 22 year old girl to expect a 22 year old guy to commit to marrying her.
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Life isn’t fair. I don’t see why a guy would marry a woman who spent her best years on the cock carousel, while he’s trading his best years for her. And she doesn’t have to marry a 22 years old guy or screw him outside of marriage. In my country the average marriage age for women last decade was 21, while the one for men was 23 and half of the women were virgin on their wedding night.
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RV
Men who’ve been fucked over enough times eventually learn. And what women teach us teaches us that we may as well be just as cold and selfish as they are.
Meaning, give the people what they want. By the time a man has learned how to get women, he’s also learned not to keep them unless he wants to keep them.
Women taught us this, and you can’t unlearn something that resonates so deeply as truth with all your observations.
So for me, it’s one day at a time.
Marriage? You’ve got to be joking.
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“even if he doesn’t sees you as marriage material or as good enough for him.”
The ultimate projection, the “fear of commitment” line…I’ve never heard a woman fretting about her man’s “commitment” stop and ask if there’s something about her he’s hesitant to commit to.
Like, for one, the fact she’s neurotic about his “commitment” which might indicate to him that she is flaky or doesn’t stand up for herself (if she wants a man who will “commit” and I’m not him, why is she with me?)
The commitment dance is really a way for a woman to shit-test herself.
But it’s easier to project the problem onto him as an irrational fear instead of a logical response to diverging desires.
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xspat, another thing. Marrying a woman that won’t have children is pointless. Or if she’ll have a kid and just drop it in daycare. I always try to get men to see this, but their reasons are quite funny. At least I live in a place where women are still expected to actually be mothers and do womanly stuff, so men get more out of marriage than there.
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“The ultimate projection, the “fear of commitment” line…I’ve never heard a woman fretting about her man’s “commitment” stop and ask if there’s something about her he’s hesitant to commit to.”
Oh, I’ve heard in person and seen plenty of women doing the ‘what’s wrong with me’ in plenty of media. Quite whiny it sounds. (Yes I know, like Yoda I speak hah hah).
” (if she wants a man who will “commit” and I’m not him, why is she with me?)
Because she has already invested in you both emotionally and physically. Probably far more than you realise (because of the preselection thing). For most men, another woman another vagina doesn’t mean anything. For women, they put a lot emotionally into their relationships and another cock to put it crudely is another 10k miles or whatever off the clock. Hence the popularity of old boyfriend sex.
This isn’t a personal perspective as in my life and my experiences but my understanding from seeing what goes on around me.
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RV, I think in this day and age marrying a woman who DOES want kids is a bad move.
A man needs all the hand he can get. Not marrying is one aspect of hand. Basically it comes down to keeping the woman financially dependent on the man and not allowing her any access to post-breakup funds. Marrying a woman is like giving her an insurance policy. She wants the insurance policy, and may refuse kids without it. But only an idiot would give his wife an insurance policy. Let her fear. Make her work every day to earn her position.
Marriage will not help you see your kids as they grow up. Marriage offers nothing to a man – with or without kids. It is pure concession, with no reward.
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People want comfort. People think comfort will make them comfortable. People want a secure, stable, comfortable, bond.
Comfort is the enemy.
Learn to love fear and change. Fear and change are your friends. Comfort is your enemy.
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@ xsplat
I don’t know the laws where you live but where I live fathers who are not married to the mothers of their children do not have any automatic right over their children. It comes to a big shock to some men who have been in cohabiting relationships which end who may have have had quite an active role in their children’s upbringing.
They are only able to have any rights if there is a parental responsibility agreement in place beforehand (this is quite a new thing) or if after the breakup the woman asks for financial assistance either directly or indirectly (i.e. claims welfare in which case the child support authority will ask the man for money which is related to his income even though they will pay the woman a fixed amount). If the woman doesn’t, the father has no automatic rights to any involvement with the kids at all.
As I said, I don’t have anything really to gain from a marriage (despite being a hypergamous whore woman hah), but one of the factors that would incline me towards is so that the father of the child would know from day 1 that he has rights over that child which are equal to mine.
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Lily, you may be right about that. I haven’t been interested enough in kids to be educated about fathers rights. My uninformed impression so far was that women get whatever they want. Men’s rights are either not legally recognized, or not legally enforced.
My point is that security is a blind alley. Love is blind. The future is blind. Marriage does not help in any way to see or secure a better future. In fact it sets the man up as a provider of security, which is precisely what will make his marriage insecure.
It’s a paradox. In order to win security, you must accept deep down a lack of security. And in order to accept it deep down, you must be familiar with intense loss and grief, and face it and bear it, and work with it as your friend.
Fear is the friend. Security is the enemy.
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@ Gorbachev
That’s fine, I was just asking RV to clarify. It’s absolutely fine if the answer is better not to have kids. Probably not great for the future of humankind but fair enough, it’s a valid viewpoint.
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xsplat, marrying her if you want kids isn’t really based on her desire to have kids, but yours and you would take a risk in order to fulfill that desire. For example, in the same way you view it, I view not having kids since the world would be crappy for my kid and I’m unsure about providing soldiers for civil wars to change it. All this considered, the worst bet would be to have my kids in Europe or the Anglo world and the best bet would be to have the kid of a Chinese man since they actually have a country, not a propositional joke and my kids will live in the richest and most powerful country of the 21st century. The last thing would be to have the kids of an idiotic man who is willing to have his kids discriminated against based on their ethnic origin in the name of social justice. He should discriminate against others though and since white men aren’t willing to do it… Well, you get the picture.
Still, without having kids, marriage is worthless and has no meaning to begin with. Also, by your logic, shagging up serial rapists is the thing to do since I’d change them up and be afraid. I doubt that’s a successful reproductive strategy.
And I agree that marriage right now is a sham. People shouldn’t have an out from it and the person who wants out or doesn’t respect their marriage should pay up the other one. If I cheat on my husband, I should be liable for damages and him divorcing me. If he beats me up, I should be able to take his stuff. And no fault divorce shouldn’t exist.
Lily, the father of your child won’t have any right to your child even if he’s your husband. In the moment in which you divorce, you will face really good odds of gaining sole custody and exclude him from your child’s life. Another thing, child support for out of wedlock children shouldn’t exist. xsplat is right on this one, men and fathers don’t really have rights.
Gorbachev, that’s why I probably won’t have kids. Not in the mood to have my kids compete with the kids of other people while funding their reproduction and in the same time having a hand tied behind their back in this competition. The only way in which I will have kids is if this way of handling things collapses. So to answer the person so curious about my life, this is why I’m not married yet – it’s pending on this decision: to have kids or not. If I decide against it, I won’t marry since it’s a stupid thing to do considering I’m intelligent and I can have a career fairly easily while getting some cats and indulging in my impulses.
Lily, I hope I made it clear. If marriage would be a legit contract, I’d ask men to marry. But asking them to marry now is like asking my parents to sell their place for $2 and hope the buyer will give them the real value of the property. Also, the responsibility of single motherhood is on us alone since we created it and we fuel it.
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Sorry, I’m trying to follow this, but my brain can’t imagine it. Want to have kids? Me?
I’m not capable of using even hypotheticals to begin to theorize about that.
Actually, yes, I do want to have kids. To girls who go on to marry foreigners and move to rich countries. Lots of them. Or to girls who live in homes I set up for them, and visit occasionally. Live in kids? Does… not… computer…frszerslll.
The point I was unskillfully trying to make about loving fear was a poetic one, and aimed towards men. It’s a well known game tactic to keep your woman on edge. It’s a less well known game tactic to also keep yourself on edge. Heighten both of your jealousy in order to strengthen the sexual tension. Push and pull.
Comfort gets in the way of that. Security kills security.
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@RV
“Lily, the father of your child won’t have any right to your child even if he’s your husband”
Again, I don’t know where you live. The laws where I am are non-male friendly in many ways but married men do have a right to their children that unmarried men don’t have (although as I said there has been a law to help with the unmarried men).
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@xsplat
Get all the impression you like 🙂
Maybe we have different definitions of what the same team means?
I would not imagine that if I called up any exes and asked them if we were on the same team that they would think we were. We’ve moved on and have separate lives. And I’m on very good terms with my exes (yes there are a couple that I cut out my life, particularly one who neglected to mention he was married with 2 kids although I met his friends and his brother and none of them thought to mention it either), but I don’t see or expect any exes to be on the same team as me.
Re fat, I thought fat girls were supposed to have great personalities lol.
Then again I always thought ugly men were supposed to be nice, if they’re not, what’s the point of them existing? (don’t flame me, I’m being very tongue in cheek)
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Ignore last post, wrong thread.
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RV,
Although you are remarkably smart, sensible and free of illusions, you understand economics very well, and your English is excellent, I think you have just revealed an essential way in which you are European rather than American.
I quote from an article by James C. Bennett in the current edition of National Review magazine (unavailable online to non-subscribers):
In sum, a person living in an individualistic society is less likely to believe he is entitled automatically to a share of anything, is less troubled by inequality, and is driven to provide for himself and his family through his own effort. By contrast, the family structures of many other cultures have over the centuries led people to feel a much stronger sense of entitlement. In parts of Western Europe, for example, it was mandatory that male children receive equal shares of the parents’ land. This led to an expectation that there would be equality of incomes. Further, the degree of parental control in many types of families leads people outside the English-speaking world to be far more willing to cede control over large areas of their lives to a lifelong, provident, controlling authority.
You are much closer to American in attitude than most Europeans, but you still exhibit a fatalism about your ability to create acceptable circumstances to raise your own children in when you say
Not in the mood to have my kids compete with the kids of other people while funding their reproduction and in the same time having a hand tied behind their back in this competition.
I think if you meet and fall in a love with a man with capabilities at least equal to your own, who shares your goals, you may develop more confidence in your capacity to raise happy and successful children (especially if you move to America).
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Lily, I’m discussing the average Western divorce laws. Obviously recognized fathers have more ‘rights’, but it’s hardly any difference. Not worth the extra cost to cover against it. It’s like paying a $20,000 yearly insurance premium to cover nail breaking.
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Polymath, I’m glad I’m European and not American. And I don’t think I’m entitled to anything, I’m just making a rational choice based on how things ARE, not how I’d want them to be. And that choice would be to get my tubes tied. I don’t see why I’d get invested into a world that will obviously suck or in a group of people that is suicidal. It’s like choosing to invest in General Motors. No point in throwing good choices after bad, just like there’s no good reason to throw good money after bad.
And it’s hilarious to me that Americans talk about others being so concerned with equality. I mean, just research the Wilsonian garbage or equal political rights, which are your ideals and the French revolution’s. I won’t really go into this debate here. Also, last time I checked, you’re the proposition nation supporter worldwide – hardly anything more equal than that.
Oh, and another thing, an individualistic society that forgets that individuals are part of a collective isn’t going to survive that much. Obviously, individual liberty is a great thing, as long as culturally and ethnically those individuals are parts of a collective. Libertarianism translated into cultural and ethnic terms is an unmitigated disaster. In this way collectives always destroy individuals.
And I do believe that I’d be a great mother and be able to raise well adjusted individuals – that’s not the point. The point is that I’d teach my sons to be cads and my daughters to be gold diggers if I lived in a society like today if I’d want them to be successful in life in an easy way. In the same way I’d have to teach them that it doesn’t matter who their co-citizens are or that they won’t have a country of their own.
If I want to raise a family, America is also not the place to do it. Singapore is safer, richer and simply better. If I’d send them to school with people of other ethnicities, at least I’d do it in a place where the people in those schools actually have the brain capacity to be in them and they’re not just bused around. And they wouldn’t be taught how racist they are either. Or heck, I could send them to get public education in my country. By the time they’d finish highschool they’d know what in America is college level math. They’d also get Stalin presented as a mass murderer on the same footing as Hitler and not a rosy presentation of the Soviets and the list goes on and on. The only reasons why I’d move to the US are:
1)I could homeschool
2)I could own a gun
Besides this, I’d have no reason to move to America.
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RV,
If the United States was a smaller nation with a more homogeneous population we would have a lot less problems also.
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Nobody forced you to make your slaves equal citizens instead of free them provided they leave and open the flood gates to immigration either. Just look at Japan – really sane country, in which non-Japanese can’t become citizens even if they lived there for centuries. In the same way, nobody keeps you from not kicking people out. lol
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RV,
You make good points, and the 2 reasons you would move to America are really good ones.
But you’re confusing equality of opportunity with equality of results. Americans really care about equality of opportunity but despite the recent successes of Obama and the Democratic Party, they are very doubtful about the state stepping in to redistribute things.
Of the Euro countries, France is the best in the sense that they are more meritocratic and more comfortable with unequal outcomes, though they still place all sorts of restrictions on your economic freedom.
The quality of American schools is EXTREMELY variable because they are still controlled locally — cities and towns run their own schools, the state standards they must meed are fairly minimal and the federal standards even more so, and there are lots of private schools. If you did not want to home-school, you could find high-quality schools, though if you didn’t want to pay for the high quality and instead settled in a town with good public schools, although the educational quality would be good you would have to watch out for sneaky leftist teachers propagandizing under the radar.
America has the balance between individualism and collectivism set differently from Euro countries, and I think the system is superior here, but it is in no way libertarian or purely individualistic. It’s individualistic enough to give most people a sense of control over their lives, which results in a happier society overall.
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Polymath, by the time my children would be my age, the only people who care about equal opportunity will be the minority in your country. In case you didn’t figure it out, non-whites still support Obama and in case you missed it, they will be the majority by the middle of this century. And equal results is just the natural progression of equal opportunity and I’m surprised you fail to see it like that.
Everything the United States did after the Civil War has been an unmitigated disaster. And I wouldn’t move to any country where everybody can be part of it. Let’s say that I would have lived there and liked it until the mid 1970s when you still considered yourself a country founded by and for European people. Still, the propositional nation is no nation. Being American is just a legal fiction.
And I don’t care about economic things, I care about cultural ones. I would rather live in a socialist country full of people who are co-ethnics(sort of like Sweden was for Swedes) than live in the US. Sure, socialism is bad, but I’ll take it over empowering other people over my own, a place that isn’t defined in any way, but allegiance to a piece of paper and so on.
About schools, I don’t care about the schools themselves, I care about the curricula. I don’t really care about my son learning about the achievements of some moron bringing illegals over instead of his own people, especially since they dwarf the ones of everybody on Earth.
America has the system set up differently, but it’s just as bad. You didn’t understand me. I don’t care who is American. If I was American, I’d feel closer to a Swede or French or Spanish person than a black American. So who is the collective there is screwed. In the same way, the cultural liberties are stupid. The way things should be is full economic liberty and barely any cultural one. What was sane was early 19th century Europe.
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There is no doubt the abolition of slavery could have been handled better. There was serious talk about returning freed slaves to Africa, but obviously it never happened for most of them. Plenty of blacks have done well for themselves and are an asset to the United States. Our inner cities, however, which are mostly populated by black and hispanic people are ground zero for most of our social maladies.
Polymath is right. A person can still get a top notch education in the United States. Our national test scores include everyone and that encompasses many less talented students.
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Laura, what individual blacks do or did is absolutely irrelevant. For example, I like Allen West, but this is irrelevant, in the end. What matters is the collective effect they have. In the same way, I bet there are lots of cool Muslims in Europe, but in the end it’s just as irrelevant. For instance, related to immigration – to let a non-ethnic in, his skills must be way better than the ones of the initial population in a sense that he increases the carrying capacity of the country more than the negative parts of his presence there entail on the genetic interests of the native population.
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RV,
The picture you get of America from abroad, even if you are very well-informed and skilled at digging up information on the Internet, is not a good representation of the country, which is in fundamental ways much less changed from 50 years ago than you would expect. Watching American TV will not get you a proper picture either, but if you had traveled to many different states and worked with people from all walks of life, as I have had to do professionally, you would see that the social fabric has been stretched so unnaturally far that it is going to spring a long way back in the other direction (though the net impact will still be a movement to the left, it will be quite small compared with the impression you would get from the American media).
Of course, there have been serious social changes in male-female relations, as this blog documents, but that pendulum is swinging back too, although not as drastically as the politico-economic pendulum will swing back.
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Why did Europeans let so many Muslims in? What do they contribute to your society? Black people were brought over here to pick cotton and tobacco. They were for sale as slaves and are more suited to working in the hot sun all day than fair skinned white people. In retrospect it was a bad idea besides being morally wrong in my opinion. Southerners should have seen their civilization was unsustainable. You can’t have a small elite class living like royalty in the midst of a large population of poor and uneducated people who are working for you and becoming resentful.
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Polymath, have you talked to under 30 years old people who will pretty much be the future of the United States? I doubt that most of them will define America as a country founded by and for European people and reject the propositional nation and so on. If that doesn’t happen, I have no interest in living in America. Besides, you pretty much have to be brown to immigrate. I talked to a lot of Americans, a lot of them not really liberal in nature and they still believe all these moronic myths. I don’t even care what liberals think.
I will always take my country over America for the following reason. Ask an American if he thinks blacks are American. If he says yes, America is inferior to my country because if you’re not white you can’t be Romanian. Heck, you can be white and not be Romanian unless you’re fully assimilated culturally, linguistically and religiously. It’s the same with Japan. I will probably rather move there than the United states. You see politics in a typical American conservative way. Politics isn’t electing this November politicians who are against Obamacare. Politics is shaping the mind of the population, it’s gaining that 5-10% of people who believe something that make the other 90% believe it too. And those people are mostly liberal. Aberrations like Reagan are pretty much irrelevant, especially since he didn’t rollback the 1960s. The real battle is cultural, not on economics. In the same way, I don’t really care about the Tea Party movement that much. They’re heading towards my goal in an indirect way.
When an American will be called racist and say so what is the time when I will consider moving there. Or when they will boo singers like Madonna when they ramble about discrimination. Heck, she got booed in my country for calling us racists, which was funny. Until this will happen there, it’s pointless to even consider moving there for the long term or establish there for my descendants to have a country because they won’t.
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Laura, we brought them here because you won WW2. The greatness of diversity is something imported here. lol. Also, in some countries it was pretty good to have them to rebuild your infrastructure. But you don’t have to let them immigrate – you bring them here, you pay them for work and send them home. The goodness of letting foreigners immigrate is another foreign idea to Europe. The birth place of multiculturalism, diversity, propositional nationhood are in the US of A and France. The world moved so much left because the left won both WWs.
The mistake of slavery was releasing them like you did. And you can have a population of people living like that, the problem is that you either do slavery properly like Muslims did it or you don’t at all. For example, the Muslims castrated the male slaves. They don’t have a group of people as their slaves in their countries now, do they?
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RV,
I understand where you are coming from better now.
I worked as a professional political scientist for several years and still consult in that field occasionally, and I specialized in demographic statistics. I have a very deep state-by-state knowledge of this stuff. Americans’ attitude toward race is very dependent on the social conditions of their own states.
George W. Bush liked Hispanics and was pro-immigration with respect to them, because he was from Texas where Hispanics have always been very highly integrated with and assimilated to white culture. The Mexicans in California are very different from the ones in Texas, though, and unfortunately they’re the kind who have been immigrating, legally and illegally.
Whites from historically white states like Oregon and Vermont only know middle-class black people and thus have very different opinions on race issues than whites from states with lots of black people.
But what you don’t get about America is that truly assimilated immigrants fit in fine to American culture, not as an issue of believing particular political propositions, but simply because they share the common social attitudes about family, work, education, and property. They are culturally American wherever they came from. This kind of assimilation is unique to America.
Unfortunately, since the 1960’s it has not been occurring among many new immigrants, for a variety of reasons, with socially damaging consequences.
As the article I referred to above says, there are two major theses about American exceptionalism. One says that anyone can become an American, the other that any place can be like America.
The latter thesis is false and has been the source of major foreign policy errors (American politicians failing to see the difference of character and capacity between Jews and Palestinians, or of social orderliness between Japanese and Filipinos, or of work ethic between Germans and Russians, etc.).
But the former thesis, on the whole, is justified by history, as long as the conditions which enabled it (very strong pressure to assimilate, and screening for IQ and employability and English language competence) were maintained. Whether these conditions will be restored remains to be determined: of all the political issues I studied, immigration was by a VERY LARGE margin the one where the views of the average person and the views of the political class (politicans of both parties) diverged the most.
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Polymath, considering the size of the United States and the geographic variance of beliefs inside it, there is an obvious high probability of finding a city or state with like minded opinions on certain issues, which makes assimilation easier. This was combined with the insane birth rates of the people already in America in the 19th century who made the assimilation of those immigrants easy and then the geographical selection of immigrants since the 1920s Immigration Act made assimilation smoother – especially since most immigrants were European. The reason why the post 1960s immigrants didn’t assimilate is because they’re not white and their ratio in the new generation keeps increasing due to higher births in their cohort, lower birth rates in the original American cohort, combined with the new additions of immigrants each year.
And yes, I know the exceptionalism thing – this type of universalism is exactly the problem, if you ask me. So this is why when the current American era will end, I will be glad, even if some of the American founding ideals are things I hold dear. I guess I want something like America is dead, long live America. Luckily, in my opinion, the United States isn’t really Rome so when the current US of A will collapse(which it will, if not during Obama, during the next president’s term), ‘Americanism’ and it’s ideals will disappear. And when that will happen Europe will be able to return to the Greco-Roman roots. It’s sad considering that the Enlightenment ‘values’ have been a net negative for Europeans everywhere. Still, it’s either what I said above or going extinct as a group.
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@rebelliousvanilla,
Just some comments on your xenophobia and badly thought-out monoculturalism. I got tired of your unjustified and pathetic knee-jerk Eastern “European” superiority. You’re an idiot.
It’s unsurprising to me that you’re from Eastern Europe, that bastion of clear-thinking national philosophy and civic pride and public engagement.
Like Romania, the place where, under Ceaucescu, there were “More Geniuses than Anywhere In The World”. And Gypsies could count on getting the crap beaten out of them. Oh, Hungarians, too. What joy it is to be a Hungarian-Romanian.
Or Hungary, that home of really advanced social thought. Or, … Bulgaria. Maybe Moldova? Oh, no, Ukraine. Byelorussia.
Eastern Europe is a social policy black hole. It’s the place Western Europe wants to forget.
Inter-Racial States
Ignore Islam for a moment. It’s a disastrously unmixable religion. Consider all of the other ethnic groups. Just think of inter-racial and cultural places.
Alexandria; Athens with its Metics; Rome as a polyglot, miscegenating empire and city; Babylon; Reformation Netherlands; and New York at any time. Singapore.
While there are difficulties, multi-ethnic/racial states bequeath vast cultural resources to the world. They generate almost all new ideas. They create most of the cultural currency used anywhere. Denying this is perverse.
Black people from the USA: They basically invented much if not most of modern music. Jewish Americans: Entertainment; the genius of Hollywood; etc.
Canada: A very unique story, almost absurdly successful at blending crazily diverse people. Even more successful than the US, in a quiet way.
Go to Toronto or Vancouver. Both integrate totally unrelated people. It’s actually amazing to see. I go there occasionally. Mixed couples everywhere, active democracy, real political debates (compared to the US or anywhere in Europe), a rock-solid financial system (so much for Switzerland), well-thought-out policies on almost everything, very middle-of-the-road. No extremes. Not as much polarization, but still diverse to the point of being almost unbelievable. I don’t know if I’d live there, but fuck: you’ve got to give it to those people, it’s pretty impressive how they managed it when we screw it up in the US.
Mexico: Successful and really only fusion of Native/Spanish culture in the Americas.
EUROPE
France: Despite its problems with Islam, French nationalism has successfully absorbed people from Indochina and Mauritius and Senegal. Most are successful and very, very French.
SHITTY EASTERN EUROPE
I note one thing:
When French talk about themselves, they call themselves French.
When Germans talk about themselves, they call themselves Germans.
When Brits talk about themselves, they call themselves (Scottish/English/Welsh/British/Irish).
When the Dutch talk about themselves, they call themselves Dutch. Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, the same.
When any racist fucktard from some Eastern European shithole talks about themselves, though, they call themselves
“Europeans”.
As if the French, Germans, English, Scandinavians, or even the Italians want anything to do with the cultural shit of Eastern Europe.
I’ve lived in France and Germany and a few other places. The Chinese and Koreans get more respect than any Eastern European. Eastern Europeans are Europe’s gutter trash. And it’s not getting better, it’s getting worse.
(Maybe not Slovenians, they seem to be becoming actual Europeans reasonably well).
Easterners want to associate themselves with the rest of Europe, because being Romanian or Bulgarian or Serbian or, for that matter, Slovak, is basically saying “I’m Third Class Wannabe-European: Please Let Me In”.
I’m tired of hearing Eastern Europeans go on about how the White race this and that or whatever. Your “Europeans” frankly doesn’t exist.
These “Europeans” are always pathetically proud to call themselves “European” or “White”.
Many Germans have told me point blank that they have more in common with the Japanese or Canadians than they do with the hordes of useless, corrupt, largely stupid Eastern Euros whose cultural identities are desperately trying to hold up the myth of being “European”.
In the world of dating sites, according to my best friend who refuses to learn game: A woman who says “Background: European” means from some loser Eastern European country.
No self-respecting German or French woman advertises herself as “European”: They say German. Or French.
The Germans think Bulgarians and Romanians are European the same way they think Ukrainians are European: They may be “white”, but these losers are definitely not One Of Us.
So take your pathetic, whiny “European Nationalism” and shove it.
North America could spend the next 50 years collapsing and it’ll still be hands and away a billion times better to live in than any Eastern European shithole.
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@rebelliousvanilla,
To sum up: “European”, “White” nationalism means shit.
It means something to losers in Eastern Europe.
Western Europeans consider Eastern Europeans to be the retarded little cousins. They’d rather truck with so-called “lesser peoples”.
The least integratable people in France and Germany are Muslims.
The next serious problem causers are Eastern Europeans.
Your European Nationalism is a sad, sad, sad, little delusion that your Actual Europeans (Western Europeans) can dispel for you without a second thought.
BTW, I’m a keen student of HBD: I don’t deny the powerful evidence of genetics. I’m just saying your strident nationalism is crap. It’s the seriously retarded delusions that Eastern Europeans are constantly distilling, Eastern snake oil.
Your reactionary anti-US, anti-pluralism, anti-non-white crap can suck it.
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@rebelliousvanilla
The way things should be is full economic liberty and barely any cultural one. What was sane was early 19th century Europe.
You want some perspective on your racial nationalism, over there?
I don’t dislike Eastern Europeans. They’re people like people anywhere else in the world. Whatever. All good.
What I hate in the pathetic, utterly unjustified and completely insulting pseudo-social-scientific racism and nationalism that these people spout. From cultures that have absolutely *nothing* to offer the world.
“European” superiority my ass.
Actual “Europeans” want nothing to do with you. Don’t puff yourselves up and put others down. You might trip over your own itty-bitty-tiny hubris bones.
If this racial nationalism was coming from, say, Swedes or Germans, very impressive and unarguably mightily successful cultures and peoples, I might be troubled, but it’s harder to argue with consistent and repeatable success.
But Eastern Europe?
Fuck off.
Eastern “Europeans” are superior to no one. The Koreans built an astounding economy and culture out of less than nothing: They went from the Iron Age, without a single telephone like anywhere, to kicking the pathetic ass out of the most impressive Eastern European country in 40 years. For God’s sake, Botswana is more successful by many standards than – what – Bulgaria? Please. Try Malaysia or Indonesia – and these places are crippled by their repressive religion. Mexico is more culturally productive than most of Eastern Europe put together, and always has been.
One of the best things about leaving France for me was not having to deal with people like you. I loved the French (especially their women); black, Asian, white – all the French. They were all, well, very French. Wonderfully, ineffably French. One of the brightest German guys I ever met was a black guy – a scholar of German literature and the philosophy of science. As black as night. Didn’t speak a word of Swahili (7 European languages, though). Danish wife. Absolutely German (Lutheran, even).
Ungrateful “European” garbage from Eastern Europe: Not only were they unsatisfied with living of the dole in the slums of Paris/Bordeaux/Reims/Nice and corrupting everything they touched, in that violent, criminal thuggish way of all Eastern European doucheballs, they were also wracked by petty nationalisms and knee-jerk racism directed arbitrarily at almost anyone they ever saw.
It was seriously hard to keep track of how many different ethnic groups they hated. If you tracked it back, they’d probably burn themselves at the stake if they had the chance.
N-Dimensional mathematical matrices would have to be constructed to map the vitriolic hatreds these people had for other people, … who often looked exactly the same.
Go back to 19th-century Europe? National cultures?
When every pathetic dialect-region had to have its own country? Where Toy Soldier armies sacked villages in Great Cultural Wars and microstates erected statues to Mr. Nobody National hero? Please, the culture/states as they are now are embarrassing enough.
A place where two indistinguishable people could bicker like children because one considered itself a Separate Culture because, … they ate Perogies wth Sour Cream instead of Butter or used a different alphabet to write the same language?
Dear Lord, thank the fates that we escaped Europe’s disastrous nationalisms. Racial or otherwise.
The Lament for Vienna: First, they discarded the Serbs and Hungarians; then the Slovaks and Czechs; and then the Jews, the rock stars and unsung heroes of the Austrian Empire. Vienna was reduced to a boring, truly provincial city. It could have stayed a Cultural Metropolis.
Maybe every village with a twangy accent in Eastern Europe should have its own Parliament, too.
Dear God that’s the kind of blind petty small-minded Eurocentric nationalism it took two world wars and more to cleanse out of Western Europe, but not before it fucked the continent over for 100 years.
OH OH! We invented a Cool Cultural Dance! We need an Army and a National Anthem! And a Post Office! Respect Our Cultural Identity!
“Everyone in this village can be citizens so long as no-one’s shorter than 6′ and there aren’t any left-handeds. Or Jews, none of those, either. Also people with names that start with F or L. Except for Fucktard Loser, his name is okay, he’s our National Hero who beat some old woman with a stick and chased out the Killer Squirrels from the local Granary.”
A whole series of Public Squares dedicated to King Booger the Second, known for his Explosive Sneezing.
And you want to idolize this. How pathetic.
No wonder the Germans have such unbridled contempt for this kind of Eastern European. The German press eats it alive.
It’s amazing how Communism managed to freeze-dry the discarded claptrap of Europe’s Greatest Failures while Western Europe actually did something with itself.
Only to unleash it all like some sort of surging plague when the Berlin Wall fell.
Now that Communism is gone, it almost makes you pine for the good-old-days when this old-school Eurotrash crap was locked safely in its Eastern European prison.
Really, take your Euronazi nationalism and shove it.
I’ll take NYC, Singapore, London or even Toronto, for that matter, any day, over, … what?
Ethnically Pure Sofia? Beautifully White Bucharest?
Give me a break.
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@Rebelliousvanilla–
BTW, nothing personal.
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RV,
I’m not sure whether you’re distinguishing between the two kinds of exceptionalism I referred to. I agree with you that the imperial “export Americanism” kind of exceptionalism will collapse, and don’t particularly regret that. But it’s a very different question whether American society itself will collapse. What you liked about America’s past is still here, although it is competing with some bad trends.
I’d also like you to address my earlier point, which I was using America to illustrate but for which the American question is not essential: if your attitude is fatalistic about being able to create satisfactory conditions in which to raise your own children, where does your pessimism come from? Are there no societies in which you could do this? Because if there are, you should be moving there.
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RV,
I wouldn’t presume to tell anyone else whether they should marry and have children. For men there are specific risks which we have already discussed with ver 2.0, so they of course need to take that into consideration and plan accordingly (no small task).
But what I would say is that it makes no sense to make this decision based on a current assessment of the national or global situation. There will always be some national or global catastrophe looming on the horizon. For as long as I’ve been alive, we have been:
1) On the brink of running out of oil (cue the peak oil posters…).
2) On the brink of war (more or less).
3) Involved in major economic transition/disruption.
4) On the brink of catastrophic warming (or cooling).
None of this is to say that the issues you are concerned about aren’t real. But one thing I’ve figured out in the last 20 years is that the events in your own life will far overshadow the impact of global events. So be generally prepared for difficult times (have some food, water, savings, means of personal/family defense, diversify financially, etc) and vote according to your strongly held beliefs; but don’t put your life on hold or worse give up on it because of the bad global prognosis.
When I was in High School many would have said “why have children to have them grow up in the post nuclear apocalypse”? Everyone knew that cowboy Reagan was going to start WWIII. By the time I finished college, everyone had forgotten about this worry. If as I gather you were born in Romania in the late 1980s, think about the world that faced your parents then. How much of what they would have worried about on a national or global level even has any relevance any more? Do the same thought process for your grandparents when first deciding to have children, and your great grandparents as well. One danger of being very high IQ is thinking you can predict the future. The last 20 years have been very humbling for me personally in this respect. If you want to learn your lesson the hard way, test your abilities out on the global stock, bond and commodities markets. Or take my word for it and save yourself a great deal of heartache.
If you want to marry and have children, marry well and move forward. Live a rich and fulfilling life.
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@Dalrock,
Sorry to leave you hanging. The husband and boys cam home and were in a hurry for the whole family to go out again, so I didn’t have time to answer you
“Good to see something we can agree on.”
Oh, absolutely. Now I’ll look forward to the barrage of insightful comments about how I’m a sucker for being married, etc. ”
And much of the barrage will come from guys who have no one themselves.
“BTW, I never intended to take a shot at your sons.”
Thanks.
“Lastly, my comment above was specifically directed to Polymath (another married man on the forum), but I’d be interested in your take on “wifely duty” sex as well.”
Yeah, I saw your interchange with Polymath, and I’m glad I got a chance to think about it before I answered. I feel like I’m walking a line here because I’m basically in agreement with you, but I don’t want to give anyone reading me license to force themselves on their wife, GF, SO or casual partner.
So here’s my slant. When two people are monogamous and want to insure that things stay that way, they are mutually obligated to keep each other satisfied. But people need to be reasonable about it. I’ll generally put myself out for my husband if I’m simply not in the mood. It’s not a duty or submission or a gift. I just realize that if I’m the only game in town for him, then it’s cruel to leave him hanging. And frankly, after all these years, he’s learned how to get me in the mood if I tell him I’m not. If I say I’m not, he knows it’s not a rejection, but merely a statement about how I’m feeling. He also knows I’m open to having him change my mind unless I’m sick or there is a bigger problem.
I think it’s equally cruel for a man to leave his wife unsatisfied. I think that many men who see their wives as frigid or withholding don’t know how to keep a woman happy. If most of the sex a woman has with her husband is good, she’ll be willing to have sex with him even if she’s not “in the mood” because she knows that it will still be a good experience. For example, if I have a real headache, like a tension headache, I’m pretty sure my husband actually has the cure. I know that if I motivate myself, he’s going to make it worth my while.
I also read your post to Polymath on “taking her while she is asleep.” I assume that you are not just jumping on a sleeeping woman–which could be rather creepy. Done right, and I don’t really want to explain in personal detail what “right” means, what you are doing fulfills a “Sleeping Beauty” fantasy. It’s a nice way to wake up.
It really underscores what I said about sex and marriage. Waking up in a strange place to find a stranger screwing your corpse-like inebrieated self… I can only imagine the horror. Waking up in your own bed in the arms of someone who loves to find that your sex dream is a reality…well, you know.
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Gorbachev’s prodigious output on this blog makes it clear that, given a twenty-four-hour day and man’s need to sleep six to eight of those hours, he has no more than two out of the following three things: 1) a job; 2) a social life; and 3) time to write War and Peace-length blog comments.
A tip, Gorby: fewer paragraph breaks.
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@ Polymath
“Also, if there is not some physical issue making sex painful, uncomfortable, or dangerous,”
Exactly, it’s out of line for a guy to ask for that.
“not being in the mood” is simply not an acceptable excuse. My wife figured this out a few years ago and was amazed to see how much better sex got.”
I don’t get this chronically”not in the mood” stuff. Unless there’s another problem, I’ll take anything my husband’s offering.
“having sex frequently makes you more physically and mentally ready for it at all times”
True dat. And it’s healthy and good for you.
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lol, Gorbachev, how the heck can you say it’s not personal when you call me an idiot? That’s like me flooring the gas when I see you in front of my car and then say I didn’t mean to hurt you. Considering that you can’t really stick to civil discourse and not curse other people, I don’t really care about debating anything with you.
For your information, I live in a city with about 10 murders and less than 1000 violent offenses per year and it has about 3-4 million inhabitants. I doubt your lovely New York City has less than 100 murders an year and it surely doesn’t have 40 million inhabitants. Also, I’m not genetically Romanian and even so, the jet engine, first propelled flight with no help from the ground, insulin, fountain pen, the groundwork for cybernetics were done by Romanians. The list goes on, but since I won’t reply to any of your other replies, I won’t really waste my time. When you will learn to have a debate and maybe learn to behave like a person and not a moronic animal raised in the forest, I might consider answering to you.
Polymath, when I’ll find a country that fits, I will move there. The only countries I found so far are Iceland and Poland. The former has a young homogeneous population while the latter is homogeneous and is more or less the only European country doing the right things economically. Also, I don’t consider things being inevitable.
Dalrock, I do have a virtual stocks portfolio and when I actually bothered to do day trading, I had a 35% return in two months. Then I got bored of it and gave up. And I have no formal education in investing. And I don’t vote according to my beliefs, I vote according to the desired outcomes I have. For example, I want my country to go bankrupt so in the next elections I will vote for the socialists. And I want that to happen because it might serve as an epiphany for all the fools in it. Oh, and my parents didn’t really worry about global politics, they were too busy avoiding starving or freezing to death. And here are some predictions: the USA will go bankrupt, along with Italy, Portugal, Spain, the UK, Hungary, my country, Greece in the next decade tops and by that time, most likely the Euro won’t exist anymore. Also, if things continue as they are, the USD will become worthless in hyperinflation. The only economic sound area is Asia, but even that place will have economic struggles due to the demographic bill coming due.
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Oh, and your German buddy isn’t that impressive. I speak three languages fluently, I can have a conversation in Spanish and understand what’s written in it, but I can’t write and I can hold my own a bit in French. I’m only 19. Since the future will be in Asia, I also plan to be fluent in Mandarin and a Northern European language by 25, unless I decide to have a family. So hardly impressive, if you ask me.
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To be fair to Gorby, I was actually amused by his screeds. “What an intense dude” — I thought — “each of his epic-length comments is a profound working out of something that’s sitting in him. That kind of anger is interesting. Let’s see what he says next. I kinda liked his Persian Starbucks girl story, showed his more refletive side.”
But then he wrote “@Rebelliousvanilla– BTW, nothing personal” and the bubble burst, I no longer thought he’s fun to observe. “Just a common douche” I concluded for some reason.
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“It isn’t that bright men don’t value IQ, it is that it isn’t as high on the list of needs that I think you are putting it as. For most men it is far more desired to be loved and admired,”
I get that.
” than to have stimulating conversation with a LTR for example. We can always have fascinating conversations with our guy friends, but they can’t fill that other need.”
OK, I see that would work for a lot of people. On a personal level, while I won’t discount physical attraction as a big factor, I really don’t think my husband could have married a woman less bright tham I am. Maybe that makes him an outlier, but he needed a full package of looks, humor and IQ and I was offering it. To use the housing metaphor again, My husband and I were watching that reality show about flipping houses. This guy was arguing with the flipping expert about adding an expensive sushi bar to the house he was flipping. He thought it added value. But first he’d have to find the one buyer who really loved sushi. I think that more people like IQ than home sushi bars, but I do see myself as someone who has a strong appeal to a limited demographic.
“For women having stimulating intellectual conversation with friends isn’t such a sure bet (be honest…), so having this in a LTR is more valuable.”
I’m highly selective about my women friends. I don’t want to play bridge or lunch with idiots, but I do have a surprising large core group of working mom, intellectual women to hang with. On one hand, my IQ does make it hard to befriends with some women. On the other, I know my demographic here as well. I participate in a lot of activities that make it easy to meet like minded women. College and career have made that easier too. Plus, I have no desire to spend time with less bright women.
“If she thinks she is more valuable for being smart, she is actually far less desirable.”
Yeah, I was always aware that a higher IQ was alienating to both men and women, even as a child.
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@RV
Oh, and my parents didn’t really worry about global politics, they were too busy avoiding starving or freezing to death.
I’m trying to tell if you were being intentionally ironic, or just immensely thick here. Either way, thanks for the chuckle! I needed it.
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@Bagder Nation, 3:03
Thanks for the compliment.
As to your friend’s daughter, I find that teens through young adults of both sexes these days, especially if they are from educated and affluent families, have huge senses of entitlement. Their parents have generally been telling them that the sun shines out of their butts since day one. It’s a huge wake-up call when they find out otherwise.
My husband fires loads of entry level employees who are genuinely shocked to find that he doesn’t appreciate them the way mommy and daddy do.
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“Anonymous, taking a non-representative sample is irrelevant when you discuss the validity of data. …. Anyway, considering your intellectual dishonesty, I will end this debate here since it’s boring me. Oh, and spare me the hubris of you not being intellectually dishonest.”
The more I read your comments, the more convinced I am that you are really a middle-aged guy.
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“I’m only 19. ”
Damn vanilla girl, I want to beget your children.
“lol, Gorbachev, how the heck can you say it’s not personal when you call me an idiot?”
all women are idiots, hey nothing personal lol
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@J
I feel like I’m walking a line here because I’m basically in agreement with you, but I don’t want to give anyone reading me license to force themselves on their wife, GF, SO or casual partner.
I took the context of a loving marriage, etc as a given. I assumed you had seen my previous posts regarding how deeply bonded I am with my wife. This isn’t a forum where sharing such things scores one any points, so I presume my sincerity there is accepted. But your very well expressed thoughts on the matter of if/when, etc mirror my own. Same with the headache cure (for her) and sleeping.
But so far no one has actually answered the question I had in mind regarding the hotness of (highly infrequent) consenting marital sex which starts with a large disparity in passion and arousal. I have to confess that I’m a bit embarrassed now for asking, since perhaps I’m unique in this.
“Good to see something we can agree on.”
Oh, absolutely. Now I’ll look forward to the barrage of insightful comments about how I’m a sucker for being married, etc. ”
And much of the barrage will come from guys who have no one themselves.
“BTW, I never intended to take a shot at your sons.”
Thanks.
I’m starting to like you now. Stop it!
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Some of RV comments are a little extreme. However, she does live in a small country and I see where it could easily get overrun by losers. I don’t think she is wrong in wanting to protect her country’s national culture and identity. It sounds like a nice place to live.
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Dalrock, I understood what you meant to say. 🙂 I was partially ironic and partially serious.
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I kind of liked Gorby’s “Nothing personal” post. Kind of like if the US had dropped leaflets with smiley faces saying “Have a nice day” immediately after nuking Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
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I’m only 19. ”
Damn vanilla girl, I want to beget your children.
Impossible…RV is a fat, balding middle-aged guy (not that there’s anything wrong with that) who is pretending to be the embdiment of his own masturbatory fantasies. As cute as I find his little button eyes, it grieves me to tell that you and this sock puppet have no future together.
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Dalrock,
My wife would agree with you about “wifely duty” sex. It very often heats up in a major way. And when she is very sleepy or you are waking her up, and you are doing all the work and not going too fast, her initial state of relaxation makes her eventual arousal more intense. It’s actually better if she doesn’t have a choice (either because she has agreed in advance to always do it, or because you don’t take no for an answer), when her responsibility is taken away she can enjoy it more completely.
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“As cute as I find his little button eyes, it grieves me to tell that you and this sock puppet have no future together.”
now now mrs horsey, be nice. she’s a 8 at least and hence in my daily prayers now.
http://www.easyromanian.com/
just the right kind of guidance. 🙂
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@PA
Gorbachev’s prodigious output on this blog makes it clear that, given a twenty-four-hour day and man’s need to sleep six to eight of those hours, he has no more than two out of the following three things: 1) a job; 2) a social life; and 3) time to write War and Peace-length blog comments.
A tip, Gorby: fewer paragraph breaks.
Paragraphs breaks: NP
Output: Job has lots of down time w/internet access. What can I say? I get a lot of “Hurry up and wait”.
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@namae
I clicked your link and got a foreign language learning website. You think that RV is the girl in the little pic of the college age couple?
At any rate, congratulations if you think you’ve found your dream girl. I know that many here would kill to have an easy Romaninan, or Ukrainian, or even a Pole. Heck, even I like a Pole from time to time.
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Yeah J, I was really disappointed with his link too. Was hoping for pics of RV, or if not at least a few testimonials (“Dear Penthouse Forum; I never thought this would happen to me, but I had to write about my experience in Romania with a 19 year old girl named RV…”).
Easy Romanian my ass. The site is a frickin language course!
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you are a bad woman and I am a poor romantic
I just saw this and was sold:
“want to impress you romanian sweetheart?”
and don’t call my revolutionary girl “easy”
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No self-respecting German or French woman advertises herself as “European”: They say German. Or French.
Not in my experience. Some ten years ago I was friends with a group of upper class German post-grad students and they made it a point of calling themselves “European,” not German.
Ungrateful “European” garbage from Eastern Europe
This is one of at least ten over the top spittle-flecked invectives in your multiple drunk-sounding screeds. Speaks for itself, I think.
You wrote all that in response to RV, who, mind you, used strong words to express uncompromisingly clear ideas; but her words were controlled and polite. Yours, in contrast, were formless vomit, attempting to express ill-defined anxieties or hatreds.
How’s the Persian Starbucks girl?
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RV.
You make a lot of good coments, i have however want to ask you one thing, to make clear what your true standpoint is. As i doubt, alhtough your worldwiew is very black and bit narcissistic, i think you refer it generally to highlight how messed up things are, and not completely your own toughts, so i want to ask, what do you think, about the Hungarians living in romania. Is things going alright or not, what would the solution be from your aspect.
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Ungrateful “European” garbage from Eastern Europe
Gorb, to much hate. Why do you hate Eastern Europe btw?
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@PA
Ungrateful “European” garbage from Eastern Europe
This is one of at least ten over the top spittle-flecked invectives in your multiple drunk-sounding screeds. Speaks for itself, I think.
You wrote all that in response to RV, who, mind you, used strong words to express uncompromisingly clear ideas; but her words were controlled and polite. Yours, in contrast, were formless vomit, attempting to express ill-defined anxieties or hatreds.
I’m not going to apologize for spewing. I went off and read her blog. Much of what she writes truly isn’t worth anything but a vitriolic spew. Nothing I haven’t seen before, and less well-argued.
That comment above was referencing Eastern immigrants in France. And it’s over-the-top, but on this I won’t hold my tongue.
I worked with a media types from Serbia, Croatia, Hungary and Romania, and there were no more committed and mindless racists than these people. it was the mindlessness of it that got to me.
And the general disdain they had for Western Europe can be summed up like this: Black (educated, successful) French people are not French. My Image Of France Is Offended. Or listening to them say absurd things about Germany, that even the Germans – descendants of Nazis – wouldn’t think. And to hear them talk about Jews, it boggles the mind. Even the Palestinian Authority could take a page from Eastern European antisemitism.
Communism just buried some sort of mindless Euroness in Eastern Europe and then disgorged it. I had to deal with it a lot; I admit to have severe hostility to it.
RV has more than a taste of that.
How’s the Persian Starbucks girl?
Doing well. Updates posted.
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@biktopia
Ungrateful “European” garbage from Eastern Europe
Gorb, to much hate. Why do you hate Eastern Europe btw?
Biktopia,
I don’t hate Eastern Europeans, actually. They’re great people. Most people everywhere are great people. Including Muslims, so long as they’re not being good Muslims and shoving Sharia law at everyone.
But the Nazis truly, truly, had nothing on racism or cultural chauvinism like people from Eastern Europe. When you have to listen to yet another Croat explain how people from his village are just different, … more something, … basically better than other people – it just gets tiring. This effect gets worse as you move into places like Hungary (where people are at least amusingly and self-deprecatingly neurotic), or of all places Romania or Bulgaria – two countries with absolutely nothing to justify any brand of nationalistic superiority of any kind.
The Balkans were just a really, really bad idea. The only political lessons they have to teach the rest of the world are negative ones – what to avoid. And the further into the East you get, the more sure they are that they’re Full Blooded Europeans, as if they had even the tiniest thing to do with making Western Europe great.
I wouldn’t pay it a second of attention, but for the high-and-mighty attitude of cultural superiority. The less important the nation, the most fervently they cling to their supposed superiority. I’ve never heard more and more strident ethnic nationalism from people objectively less qualified to have it.
I mean, you can fault the US for a lot of things, but the US made the 20th century, for better or worse.
In France, the most judgmental and obtusely ethnocentric people (w/o justification) were all from the saddest and least impressive Eastern European countries or cultures.
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Gorb
I am very sorry you feel this way, hostality is not good, im sorry you ran into some weird people from Eastern Europe, i think this is the best place on earth! (ehum, accept the coast anywhere along Mediterranean Sea)
Anyhow, I love my everydays, i love the people, i love my life, its full of content, it makes life worth living, and i am saying this having a swedish passport.
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my comment in mod, but didnt see your reply,
So ok, i so agree with you on this issue, Eastern Europe have a general problem with consipracy theories, i have a lot of friends im trying to explain to that their thought is simply absurd, not as i know what would be the true answer, but i could see a halting theory at least. But also,i do understand them a bit, having had to read between the lines for 45 years, getting skewed information, makes the conspiracy theory full blown here, and as a half Serb, i get in insane dilemmas, my father was pro Big serbia, and i couldn’t share this. And the feelings amplified, small villages were digging their graves without knowing it, i yet have to understand why this could happen, and that no one was sane in that moment accept a few.
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And yes, these days there is an inflation in patriotism in Hungary, and i do tell everyone that i meet who is far right winged, how wrong it is, and that they are repeating the same that happened before the WW’s when whole of Europe was amplifying their military, just waiting for the slightest wind, to declare war, i hope this will never happen again.
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@biktopia
my comment in mod, but didnt see your reply,
So ok, i so agree with you on this issue, Eastern Europe have a general problem with consipracy theories, i have a lot of friends im trying to explain to that their thought is simply absurd, not as i know what would be the true answer, but i could see a halting theory at least.
I just don’t know why so many people from Eastern Europe are just dyed-in-the-wool racist and are so sure of their own cultural superiority. A lot of the time, this is directed at their neighbours – and their neighbours are usually almost identical to them, from any outsider’s view.
But also,i do understand them a bit, having had to read between the lines for 45 years, getting skewed information, makes the conspiracy theory full blown here, and as a half Serb, i get in insane dilemmas, my father was pro Big serbia, and i couldn’t share this. And the feelings amplified, small villages were digging their graves without knowing it, i yet have to understand why this could happen, and that no one was sane in that moment accept a few.
I know – this is exactly why I hate this kind of nationalism. It’s socially toxic. What’s saddest about it is that it’s almost always unjustified. Really, there’s just no reason to get ethnically exclusive when you come from – say – Romania.
I mean – Romania ate a huge piece of Hungary, and there are all kinds of Hungarians in Romania. They’re co-citizens. They need to live and work together. They share a country.
Ethnic nationalism is just retarded.
When it inspires you to achievement – fine. But it almost never does that. It just makes enemies for no particularly good reason.
[ed: or it is an evolved behavior in response to out-groups who do not have the in-group’s best interests at heart.]
That’s why I hate ethnic nationalism in general. It’s almost always poison.
[what are your thoughts on jdate?]
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“”– Romania ate a huge piece of Hungary, and there are all kinds of Hungarians in Romania.””
that is why i asked RV her opinion about this Romanian Hungarian issue, because i think that could reflect a lot about her.
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@namae nanka
“Damn vanilla girl, I want to beget your children”
I got the impression you are in India so sadly, I don’t think she would go for it. RV seems to have a problem with people of ‘brown skin’, perhaps she is jealous because she thinks they have got a better chance of getting into the US than she has (she mentioned in another post that she had looked into it for post graduate study although she now seems very anti-US). Maybe she is playing some ‘girl game’ of getting someone to sponsor her in a very roundabout way?
She wants to move to Iceland which admittedly has not had much immigration but also notorious for single mothers.
We’ve got a shortage of junior doctors coming up in England but I note that the NHS are actively recruiting from India rather than say Romania although it would be a lot easier from a paperwork perspective to recruit from the latter.
Agreed with Gorbachev that Eastern Europeans are racist compared to others. That said, never heard of or read of any Romanians in England beyond gypsies (perhaps not treated well in Romania?) and the main thing Romania is known for here is orphanages treating babies and children appallingly, but no doubt there are some lovely people there. Poles on the other hand, lots of them here and on the whole people known for a very strong work ethic. Have got a reputation for being racist towards ethic minorities though, if they don’t like it, they should go home.
Gorbachev is right that nobody from England would describe themselves as European. You’re English, British, Irish, Afro-Caribbean or whatever, never European. To us, ‘Europeans are ones across the channel. Yet the French and the Germans don’t exactly lump themselves together.
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@Lily
Poles on the other hand, lots of them here and on the whole people known for a very strong work ethic. Have got a reputation for being racist towards ethic minorities though, if they don’t like it, they should go home.
Yes, … they can live in their ethnically pure states if they want. Same attitude I have to these people in the US. Don’t like Black/Japanese/Asian/African/Caribbean/Hispanic people? Go home. Pretty simple.
And Poles are, intellectually, not really “Eastern”. They’ve been culturally part of Western Europe for about a thousand years; the Catholic religion and their ties to Western cultural traditions did that. Poland was really a centre of Western European culture in the East; a Slavic-speaking nation that had more in common with the West, especially intellectually. When political revolutions hit the West, they infected Poland just as fast. Poland threw off its feudal history just as quickly. It even had its own little “empire” for a while, after the Lithuanians had been bested.
Romania, as a counter example, was a Romance-speaking country with more in common with the East, tied to the Ottoman Empire and “Middle-Eastern Despotism”, more Ottoman/mini Russian than Western European. A true satellite culture.
And no-one has mentioned the other Balkan people who are absolutely European but not Christian: The Albanians.
They trace their roots back to the Illyrians; their language is an ancient offshoot of the original Indo-European; they’re as old and hallowed a European sub-group as the Greeks, Latins, Celts, Germanics or Lithuanians. A “core” European sub-family, actually. Along with, say, Lithuanians.
And yet, … because of their religion, they’re not part of the club. Treated like shit in the Balkans, generally.
How interesting.
The Balkans. Ideologically, the powderkeg of Europe.
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@Dalrock,
“Yeah J, I was really disappointed with his link too. Was hoping for pics of RV, or if not at least a few testimonials (“Dear Penthouse Forum; I never thought this would happen to me, but I had to write about my experience in Romania with a 19 year old girl named RV…”). ”
I expected some pics of her in a bikini fixing her air conditioner–because that’s what 19 year old “almost a virgin” girls do while pining for their skinny boyfriends and researching men’s rights. I know when I was 19 that was I spent my time.
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@ namae
‘you are a bad woman”
Well then, I apologize.
“and I am a poor romantic. I just saw this and was sold:
“want to impress you romanian sweetheart?”
I didn’t realize that you were so romantic.
“and don’t call my revolutionary girl “easy” LOL
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” RV seems to have a problem with people of ‘brown skin’, perhaps she is jealous because she thinks they have got a better chance of getting into the US than she has (she mentioned in another post that she had looked into it for post graduate study although she now seems very anti-US).”
love can do amazing things mistress.
As for that jealousy, I think it’s justified, two of my friends got into John Hopkins for their post grads without a proper knowledge of english much less than knowing three of them at 19.
and my skin is only as brown as the sun’s position in the sky.I can approximate white and nerdy quite well in the winters.
“I didn’t realize that you were so romantic.”
every one here is a romantic, or at least they were, before the cruelty of womankind opened their eyes,crushed their hearts and stomped all over their souls.
*sob and a manly tear*
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I know this is an old thread, and I hate to interrupt namae’s er, manly sobbing. But someone posted a link on the thread about libertarians, etc which made me think of the talk on this thread about women in their 50s being in high demand ala sex in the city.
@Lilly
From what I see around, 50+ women who want a man don’t seem to have much trouble getting one. There are plenty of 50+ men who are interested in them. My instinct would be to think that it would be the better-preserved 50+ women who get the men, but I see quite a few couples in second marriages where the man is more physically attractive than the woman.
This plain doesn’t fit what my wife and I see of women even in their mid 30s. All of the women we have watched divorce in their 30s either dated around in frustration like Gorby’s ex, or settled hard. In one case we really felt bad for the woman, because she was so nice but had gone with her tingle and married and had kids with a classic bad boy, but eventually had enough. She remarried a few years later, but the new guy really looks off (meds?), and is employed by either YMCA or Boys Club, as I recall. She is a smart, generally attractive nice person, who just chose badly when young and couldn’t recover. Roissy is right, the dating tables really do turn later in life. The link provided by anon in the other discussion is actually quite troubling, because the woman trying to make the case for being single later in life actually was more heart wrenching than the one who admitted reality. The same trend repeats in the comment section. Older single women should be kept away from sharp objects, firearms, and shoelaces while reading this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1286611/What-singletons-think-Lisa-Snowdons-bane-Successful-Attractive-Single.html
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@ Dalrock
I am open-minded on this but that article is not a good representation (just like nothing in the Daily Mail ever is, it’s chick lit), and I notice both the yes and the no woman seem to have problems with divorced men. If you’re in your mid thirties or beyond, it is foolish to discount divorced men. In fact, at that age, I’d be worried about marrying someone who hadn’t been married (or in a long cohabiting relationship). But many of them do seem to have this ‘standard’. And I see this both ways, in fact I remember reading some statistics about how women who’ve been married before (re) marry quicker than single women of the same age.
I obviously can’t comment about this woman you know personally, maybe she just has bad choices in men. I don’t actually personally know any women who want to be married and aren’t. The main ones who don’t want to be married are 60+, (silver divorces as J calls them), I think they are incredibly brave as you get older you’re more likely to want/need a companion but women seem more independent than men in this regard.
And from a personal perspective, ok I’m early thirties rather than late thirties but I’ve had several proposals despite not really dating yet since my divorce. 60% are divorced but that’s fine by me. Women need to be more open minded. It’s all very well being all entitled when you’re 21 (not that it works that much at that age either, boys don’t want to get married, most of my university peer group are just getting married now), but it’s ridiculous when you’re in your thirties, would show you haven’t learnt anything in your years on earth.
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@Lilly
I don’t actually personally know any women who want to be married and aren’t.
Feels like a bit of the True Scotsman argument to me. I don’t have a dog in this hunt, except as a happily married father raising a daughter. But from what I’ve experienced the statement from unmarried women typically starts off with “I’m not interested in getting married”, “I don’t need a man”, etc. and then later in the conversation comes the “If I met the right man…”. Reminds me of the old boats/RVs you see that haven’t moved for decades on people’s property. They really aren’t for sale, but if someone offered the right price… As I said to RV above, all we know about something which doesn’t sell is it is overpriced.
I’ve had several proposals despite not really dating yet since my divorce.
Try hard beta proposes to woman who isn’t into him, generates no tingles; film at eleven.
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Part of the reason I am skeptical when I hear “I don’t need a man”, is that for women marriage and family fill much the same position as a career does for men. The link may be a chick crack paper (which in my opinion makes it all the more devastating), but the part where the woman met someone she hadn’t seen for 15 years and the initial question was about marriage/family rings true to me. When men meet up the first question is about their job. For women it is about marriage, family. So “I don’t need a man” strikes me the same way as a man saying “I don’t need a job”. Obviously some of each really are telling the truth. But a lot of both are making excuses for not achieving what they really want but can’t bear to acknowledge.
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Lily,
I should clarify that what I’m saying above isn’t directed at you personally. I think as a mother you are doing the right thing focusing on your kids and not trying to stitch together something new. I don’t know your situation, but I presume you had a compelling reason to get divorced. Life doesn’t always turn out how we intend and we all have some measure of heartbreak. I honestly feel for your situation.
What irks me is those who would sell my (now young) daughter and her peers a false vision of a world where she can casually marry and frivolously divorce without paying a very large price. In fact, many are selling the premise that she would actually be better off under the “starter marriage” way of thinking. My wife teaches at a private Christian school and a large percentage of her 7th and 8th grade girls have absorbed this nonsense. When she told the class how long she had been married, the girls asked “to the same man?”. These girls are going to leave a trail of wreckage in their wakes, with much of the heartbreak being their own and their children’s. While everything written about how bad marriage 2.0 is for men is true, what gets lost is the destructive power of divorce means it isn’t a zero sum gain. The man’s loss isn’t really the woman’s gain. Everyone looses.
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@ Dalrock
Yes, I certainly see where you’re coming from, especially in terms of 30 something women, but the 60+ women I know have done it, had it and usually the man would be quite happy to carry on being married to them but they have more interests than the man and want to explore these whilst not looking after someone else.
“Try hard beta proposes to woman who isn’t into him, generates no tingles; film at eleven”
No, some are alphas, proper alphas. I’m not ready to have gina tingles for anyone yet. Yes, if my feeling on this goes on much longer, I may lose the chance to have children of my own, but I’d rather that than be married to someone whom I don’t love enough and have a marriage which is just talking about what the kids have done that day and feeling dead inside. I’m always told (in unprompted and surprising ways) that I’d be a good mother but I don’t feel a biological need for children which goes above that. But if someone is divorced and has children already, they are more open either way.
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@ Dalrock
I just saw your later post. Thank you for that. I didn’t take anything you said personally, I have deduced from your posts that you are one of the respectful of women people (come on guys they are not evil, they are just different!) commentating on this blog (which I don’t always agree with but has some very insightful perspectives I find interesting).
I don’t have any children of my own biologically. I didn’t have any in my marriage as it never felt like the right time and to me having children was a much bigger commitment than the piece of paper. In the end, I realised that the best thing would be to leave it rather than let it limp on for even more years. I just got married too young, I was naive in my thinking, too busy thinking about getting married rather than a life partnership. I’m not saying any of my behaviour was right but I didn’t know at 23 what I do now (and will know at 43). Maybe I will regret later in life if I don’t end up having children the decisions I made, but I’d rather that than having brought children into it. Maybe I don’t feel so strongly about it as I played a major part of bringing up a child who is not mine biologically (not my husband’s either but I don’t want to share too much personal information on here) and I feel I did a good job on that front. It was hard work but very rewarding.
You’re right about the starter marriage and attitudes in general. It’s not men or women, we all lose.
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@J, you are absolutely right about high-IQ girls being a specialty item that is strongly selected by a discriminating audience. When I became single, I found that what really turned me on with match.com was not hearing from airheads with good bodies, but rather hearing from calculus teachers and research scientists (with good bodies). There is, in fact, an army of geeky guys just waiting for geek girls to come along; all they need is game (cue Beatles riff). Of course I met my current gf at a Mensa meeting soon after I figured this out (rather than online), and then I had to learn game to keep her interested, because I had essentially accidentally worked a textbook pickup on her.
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@ Schmoe
That’s interesting, I’m planning on signing up to match.com but assumed I should keep my profession unemphasised, but I may do a trial to see if any hot geeks are interested 😉
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“And no-one has mentioned the other Balkan people who are absolutely European but not Christian: The Albanians.
They trace their roots back to the Illyrians; their language is an ancient offshoot of the original Indo-European; they’re as old and hallowed a European sub-group as the Greeks, Latins, Celts, Germanics or Lithuanians. A “core” European sub-family, actually. Along with, say, Lithuanians.
And yet, … because of their religion, they’re not part of the club. Treated like shit in the Balkans, generally.
How interesting.”
This comment of yours (I mean, *everything* about it) is enough to show that you know *jackshit* about what you’ve written, there’s no need to go further up. You can always pretend though – your grand posturing sure helps.
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@anglosaxophone,
You obviously have no clue what *you’re* on about. Since you didn’t actually comment on anything I said, I should back it all up.
1) The Albanians, being nominally Muslim in majority, are among the least religious people on Earth; but the tags still stick. They run from Christian (various) to Muslim. I once met an Albanian Mormon. That was honestly bizarre.
They’re not popular in Italy, for sure.
They’re not treated particularly well wherever they go, especially Italy, where the government is tolerant but the population is annoyed by so many having arrived. They’re often viewed as some kind of pseudo-Europeans. Organized crime seems to be a particularly common occupation.
2) Racially, they’re absolutely European. At least as much as the Greeks or Sicilians.
Their culture is considered to be Illyrian in origin, certainly their language. The Slavs occupied the rest of the Balkans (except Romania), but the Albanians are considered to be descendants of the Illyrian-Moesian peoples, who used to stretch from the Italian border out to Bulgaria and down to Greece.
3) This is an ancient Indo-European group. The language traces its roots back to its own Indo-European family. This makes them a separate branch, along with the Latins/Italians, the Greeks (hellenic) branch, the Germanic, the Slavic, the Celtic and the Anatolian and Indo-Persian branches, with possibly the Lithuanians having as unique and as important a language from the historical view. The Lithuanian and Albanian languages were critical in reconstructing Proto-Indo-European, along with a few dead languages.
The Albanians are hard-core Europeans in every sense. Their history is attested in writing (by Greeks and Romans), their European creds are as strong as the ancient Greeks or Romans or Celts, and their language is from an ancient branch of the family.
And yet – as Muslims, nominally, they’re often treated as outsiders, both racially and culturally.
You don’t get much *more* racially and historically “European” than the Albanians.
Just goes to show how racism generates the most bizarre fantasies.
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