I was chatting up a cute chick when I overheard another pickup in progress right next to me. The guy was projecting his voice loudly so I couldn’t help but hear just about every word he said to the smiling girl who was listening intently to him. I glanced over when I had a moment to myself to observe his success or failure. (While watching other men crash and burn is a visceral pleasure, I also enjoy watching men succeed because, one, I can always learn something new, and, two, I am still amazed how often men in successful pickups utilize game principles even when they don’t know they’re doing that.)
The guy was good-looking and high energy. His body language and voice tone were confident. At one point, when he stepped away to get a beer, the girl’s friend leaned in and I heard her say “Wow, he’s cute.” From my vantage, at least until then, this pickup was his to lose.
Which he did. Back with beer in hand, they continued talking, or rather, he continued talking and punctuating his words with finger jabs into the air, while she listened. And listened. And listened. Agonizing minutes ticked by. The energy was suddenly one-sided with his wild, and panicky, abandon, for he must have noticed her demeanor changing from delight to impassive politeness to confused annoyance. The previous pickup momentum, torqued in large measure simply on the strength of his looks and initial pose of confidence, dissipated with surprising rapidity as his “game” crumbled around him in a heap of monkey dancing, gum flapping, desperate body posturing, and cloying oversmiling. He began leaning into her in a vain effort to compel her to commit to the waning conversation, but she was already one foot out the door as her eyes darted around searching for a friend, a lifeline, to pull her away from this once attractive man. His inner beta had betrayed him.
Finally, denouement. A friend touched her elbow and whispered something in her ear. The guy figured out from her body language she was leaving soon, so he suggested they exchange numbers. Or he might’ve suggested he give her his number, I couldn’t pick up what he said at that point very clearly. She took her phone out and he typed his number into it and gave it back to her. As she was leaving, she didn’t look back at him. (A good test whether a girl will flake on you for a future date is if she looks back at you briefly after you have gotten her number and she is leaving the premises with her friends. No lookback = flake.) But he wasn’t done yet. Still smiling like a tard getting tickled, he shouted at her departing footsteps: “Hey, you better memorize my number!”
Woofa.
It all went down in ten minutes. Let this be a lesson. Very good looks on a man without any game will buy him 30 seconds to ten minutes of an attractive girl’s attention, after which he will be unceremoniously (and disappointedly) discarded just like any regular run of the mill schlub who doesn’t understand the art of seduction. Men need to stop projecting their fascination with looks onto women; personality and alphaness are what electrify a woman’s pleasure center. Good looks can send initial sparks, (and sparks is all it is) but the allure wears quickly without compensatory game to buttress it.
I number closed my girl. I did not tell her I would memorize her number.
If conversation-closers were vaginas, yelling “You better memorize my number!” is like what happens when wiping back-to-front.
Ugh.
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“they continued talking, or rather, he continued talking and punctuating his words with finger jabs into the air, while she listened. And listened. And listened.”
Non-stop yapping is how many guys lose it.
Its the whole two ears-one mouth thing.
The G Way?
Use Statement-Statement-Question to lead the convo, then kick up your hand made loafers, light up a smoke, and let the girl yap on and on. Rapport.
Keep the drinks flowing, and the swoop is right around the corner.
– MPM
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Its the concept of essential elements. We men have more of them. To contribute to the species could mean anything from casting a net, to spearing boar, to sacking villages to dominating the court in Byzantium with wit and political acumen. Having no environmental or social awareness is fatal. Not having foam and sea weed about the lips is an essential element. As Twain said “better to look like an idiot than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt”.
Women need to be a good baby factory and that is much less environmentally influenced, hence men simply agree on hotness. Baby making has changed little. A hot women 2000 years ago could fit right on. Only sag can fail. Would good would a man be?
The example above was squandered the day he was conceived when his looks came with a Y-chromosome. A penis is a tool that rides on a trailer into , hopefully, a female landscape worth looking at. The fool described above is an unremarkable pipe.
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Being Alpha doesn’t reject the whole notion of being a gentleman. The more you can get the girl to talk, the more invested she’ll become.
Of course, scoundrels like you already knew that.
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Game could be remarketed as “STATUS EXCHANGE”
If you think about it, thats whats happening in the post above. A guy whose looks give him fairly high status is losing status by acting as if he has something to prove to his quarry. High status people hardly ever act that way.
Your boss generally will never act as if he has anything to prove to you. However when you see your boss with HIS superiors at a meeting, his tone and even physical bearing are a little different. His voice gets softer and higher. He seemingly physically shrinks a litte. He’s not the same man who casually speaks delcarative orders at your person.
Men sure seem more moved by beauty than women. I bet they stop longer at scenic overlooks than females do, more deeply moved at the beauty before them. One blogger has noted that most of the truly great artists were males.
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Don t discount looks too much – ever seen footage of a all female party with strippers in attendance? There guys have nothing apart from looks and the girls go wild.
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G: what’s the equivalent of a smoke? I quit two months ago.
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world cup starts today// euro loving drunk bitxhes and herbs all weekend. would love ur tjoughts on proper approaches for this weekenf.
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El duderino, A toothpick
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Less is more. A little aloofness at the right time is gargantuan. I have had a lot of success saying less and letting the woman squawk, then I’ve noticed they then try to draw information out of you when they become curious. Push pull is a wonderful thing. I’ve managed number closes often where the woman has offered me up her number without me even asking. I’m about a 9 I’m told.
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Yeah, trying to hard will kill the vibe every time. Approaching with a mindset that you’re the shit and she needs to impress you with her personality will keep you from feeling the need to jibber jabber like a spaz and make you more comfortable in any silences that arise.
I agree that for most guys F.A.G. game is half the battle. Never underestimate a man’s capacity to talk himself out of some pussy.
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El duderino quit typing comments on your iPhone
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Aony: wicked, thx.
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BTW,
BETA OF THE YEAR CANDIDATE — Swedish men:
“For Carlos Rojas, 27, a Swedish-Spanish entrepreneur who runs one of a host of new father groups campaigning for more paternal say at home, that is not enough. His 2-year-old twin sons, Julian and Mateo, call him Mama. He and his now former wife shared parental leave by alternating days at work and at home.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/world/europe/10iht-sweden.html?ref=homepage&src=me&pagewanted=all
Leave it to the liberals to trumpet how getting called “mama” and being dumped by a wife is OH SO FABULOUS for a society of former VIKINGS.
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Oh – and yes, I have failed miserably in the past and even screw up my game when I have an off-day. It’s the only way to learn, but man, I have seen some chumps make some awful gaffes with women they are interested in. I saw one friend the other night, when asked by a particularly hot waitress (whom he has been working on for weeks and weeks) what he wanted dude says, “I’ll have you, are you on the menu, I’ll have some of that please”. Ugh. I wanted to run to the washroom and hide, even I was embarrassed. Her, “No, I’m not on the menu”. F*ck was that lame, and has put me off even my game. Cringeworthy.
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el duderino
“G: what’s the equivalent of a smoke? I quit two months ago.”
“El duderino, A toothpick”
Toothpicks work or a unlit cigar.
But why screw around?
Light it up.
– MPM
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Looks vs. Game flamefest beginning in 4,…3,…2,….
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Depends on the girl’s self percieved status relative to the guys. I’ve observed situations, out in the bars as well as within my social circle, where girls will latch on to a good looking guy and hold on for dear life regardless of what comes out of his mouth, simply because he’s significantly better looking than her. I’m talking about guys who are so bad that other men notice he’s either a complete bore, a needy wimp or an insecure braggart within seconds of talking to them. This phenomenon dissipates the closer the two are in percieved social status. But, make no mistake about it, a girl will excuse a lot of betaness for good looks – especially when we’re talking a difference of greater than +1 on the 10 scale.
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The guy’s game is shaped by what has worked for him in his past:
Good looks + initiating conversation + girl who’s a 6.0 = success.
Average girls LOVE chasing good looking guys.
Unfortunately for him, game is required for hotter girls.
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Twain is the shizzz!
@ DJ who told u were a 9? I would find it odd that a girl u r dating saying ur a 9. It’s too much of a confidence boost to lead u to stray. I only talk numbers with the gays, gals, or guys not even on my radar. I would question THAT person’s motive.
In general, nobody likes a blabber mouth.
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Yeah, a lot of dudes will eventually fuck shit up by putting their foot in their mouth….
“Use Statement-Statement-Question to lead the convo, then kick up your hand made loafers, light up a smoke, and let the girl yap on and on. Rapport.”
I see G Manifesto is dropping knowledge. Like always.
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Sometimes the convo will lag. Don’t be afraid of dead air. With the right frame, a girl will worry if she’s boring you and do the work for you to rush and fill the silence, and things will pick up again.
One thing I noticed: guys who over-laugh at a girl’s lame joke.
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I think it’s more about saying the right amount, rather than talking less. I know just as many men hindered by inability to find interesting things to say in the first place.
Generally, insecurity and/or lack of social skills manifest themselves as talking too much or not enough. My default when in a socially uncomfortable situation is usually to gabber on about fucking everything or to completely clam up.
The answer lies in the creamy middle. The socially-savvy man will always have a conversation topic on hand while not feeling the need to constantly gab.
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“G: what’s the equivalent of a smoke? I quit two months ago.”
Get a pipe
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PA,
“One thing I noticed: guys who over-laugh at a girl’s lame joke.”
Are you saying this is good or bad to do?
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“Well enough about me, babe. What do you think about me?”
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Think about how many times you’ve seen a good looking girl dating an unattractive man. Or, for that matter, a girl swoon over an obviously ugly celebrity of some kind. What do they all say?
“Normally not my type, but something about him, blah blah blah.”
That SOMETHING is some combination of game/personality/status.
Good looks are valued by women too, but in the end they are gravy on the alpha male heap of steak and mashed potatoes. A cute or handsome man with nothing else going on is a side salad at best.
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A bad thing. It’s perfectly fine to laugh but what I was describing is a try-hard kind of laugh that comes off unnaturally. Kind of like laughing at your boss’s joke to kiss up.
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With women, you aren’t always being tested, but you ARE always being judged. Most men have no idea just how intently women are watching them and listening to what they are saying in order to DISQUALIFY them as a mating prospect.
In the mating game men are guilty until proven otherwise That’s why social proof is King. Be careful with your words. Make sure they are focused on holding her attention and increasing your relative value.
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Kaikou – I hang around a group of nannies, from the UK on an off. I’m friends with all of them – never touched any of them. We go out and they’re essentially my wingwomen, as I am wingman for them too. I don’t always utilise them but it’s understood amongst the group of us that we support one another in the pickup, so naturally, these things have been discussed. They’re more like sisters to me, but they are an invaluable tool I find for social proof.
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Guys – when you are seen hanging around, flirting with 3 women who are partiers and get themselves all hottied up, it’s a thing of beauty.
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It’s mostly betas who vociferously deny the usefulness of game.
The attractive guy in Roissy’s example would have had a shorter conversation and have gotten the girl’s number if he’d understood more about game.
That this is painfully obvious to us should be obvious to all of the betas out there, too.
And it’s instructive to see what works and what doesn’t.
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One thing I noticed: guys who over-laugh at a girl’s lame joke.
true. and how many times has a girl said something funny enough for anything more than a chuckle? if i’m ever laughing out loud with a girl, it’s usually at her. tease mercilessly.
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@WW- bad
@RT – always for the countdown
What age group does this pipe, cigar, toothpick thing work for? It’s mostly to impress other guys, no?
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Okay. I definitely agree that Game trumps good looks…but good looks definitely increase your margin of error, I can tell you that right now. There have definitely been times where I’ve made a false move and it should’ve been over—but I was able to close and eventually lay the girl. A guy with no looks would have been screwed…but because I have a pretty face and you could land a 747 on my shoulders I was able to stay in the ballgame.
Game is more important than looks. But good looks are one hell of an asset to have.
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yah everyone
when you go lzozlzllzlzozlzlzllzlzlz be sure not 2 put your foot in your mouth as it would come out all garbled lzzoozzllzlzllzlzlzllzzlzllzllz
G.B.F.M. lozlzlz
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You’ve just described my past Tuesday night. No joke. And ’tis true, I won’t be answering my phone after I was weirdly coursed into giving him my number. You speak the truth sir (most of the time).
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oh, and looks count for shit on men. It almost works against them for me.
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@ DJ
So your a Manny- hot, in the UK- hotter.
Um the nannies want you fyi. No girl goes oh ur a 9 blah blah without wanting u for herself at least for a moment. I say swoop.
World Cup starts today! Also when/where are the Winter Olympics this year?
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I’m sure if someone pointed him to your site, he’d dismiss all of it.
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Roissy is right. As usual.. Lol
The looks are just a starting point (although for some girls there is a minimum requirement)
your game can take it either up or down.. but then again,
why would you want to work hard when you can look good and use minimal game
Theres just no excuse for skipping the gym and eating those whoppers – although I admit they do taste good
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being a good-looking herb will get you laid. it will also get you girlfriends. it will not, however, get you girls who are better-looking than you. and that is the point of game: to consistenly pull girls who are a couple of points higher than you on the 10-point scale.
a guy who is an 8 can go out most night and take home a 5 or a 6 with little effort. he can get a 6 or a 7 as a girlfriend. this is especially true in DC where so many woman are credentialist, status-whores who think they are entitled to a “hot” guy. the question is: why would you settle?
who wants to settle for 5s and 6s when 8s and 9s are within your grasp? who wants a girlfriend to whom you’re moderately attracted to, but who also secretly resents you for being such a herb. she’s going to be a shrew and she’ll probably cheat on you regularly and dump you once she finds a guy she’s more attracted to.
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“You better memorize my number!”
OMG – OMG – that shit gives me the f-ing creeps just reading it. Good lord…..
FYI –
Your blog would explode if you allowed people to “Share” your posts on Facebook.
Get one of those stupid deals where you can link in the site.
Everyone i’ve refereed to this site is hooked.
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” Be careful with your words. Make sure they are focused on holding her attention and increasing your relative value.”
Yes. A man who talks only about himself and his interests reeks of insecurity. It has the same feeling of “trying too hard”, and really does make the man seem like a “tard” — not much social or longterm value there.
Words are very important, and if they’re all about you, they’re boring. Find some *common interest* or something to include her along the way. Things like this are verbal foreplay. Also important: non verbal communication.
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Some guys are too fucking keen to sell themselves. As someone above pointed out, it’s a perception of status dynamic. If you think your status is below hers, you will try harder to impress her and fail.
This closely follows with saying enough to generate keen interest, but not giving up too much about yourself. Always keeping her on her toes by peppering sidebits of information that makes her questions whether she really knows you or not. This works particulalry well with inversion game. If you’re a daytime suit, she will cream once she discovers you play in a band, or are into MMA.
Constantly surprising girls, and changing their misconceptions of you keeps them wet. They like the challenge.
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@ Anon
Just read the article. I’m always amused to read articles like this about Sweden because they are just so ridiculously one-sided it’s not even funny. This article flat out admits that only in the urban, high-income, trendy areas like Stockholm have men because pussified. It states that in smaller urban areas, rural and immigrant communities, traditional gender roles are very much intact. And how.
The article also states that the Swedish are fairly solvent compared to other developed economies—but I think this remains to be seen over the long-haul. Sweden spends very little in areas like defense and medicine because it’s security and medicial R&D is largely underwritten by the American taxpayer. But that gravy train is drying up—American tax receipts have plummeted over the last few years due to the banksters and the recession. How long will the Swedish she-conomy last without American taxpayers to foot the bill for all the necessary shit they don’t want to spend money on?
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PA,
“One thing I noticed: guys who over-laugh at a girl’s lame joke.”
It is even worse when the girl delivering the joke is mad fly.
I have seen otherwise semi-cool cats turn into blabbering, laughing idiots when a fly girl makes a terrible joke.
The best way to play it?
As usual, play the opposite. Don’t laugh at all, maybe diss her joke.
Roissy’s title is “Game Is 50% Not Putting Foot In Mouth”
Really, 50% of Game (more like 90%) is simply acting the opposite of most guys.
Regular guy is a great reverse-barometer.
– MPM
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Looks definitely buy some leeway for mistakes… and can get you easy lays if the difference in looks between the parties is large enough.
Small talk is hard and communication skills in general are difficult to master.
I try to make conversation as comfortable or as interesting/different as I can to take things out of the small talk zone. That’s where a good wing-man is key. You can talk to each other, with a joking and fun old friends vibe and include the girls in essentially your convo.
Once their guard is down, you can actually try to have a real conversation to take things deeper.
Besides that, as G said, asking interesting questions and letting them talk does the trick.
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Not to seem gay or nothin’, but could we have some examples of what constitutes a “good looking man” as it pertains to pick up? Roissy has talked about this category of gameless handsome men before.
Once you get below the male model level, handsomeness starts to get rather subjective.
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For the nerds who need algorithms and forumale:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_2005/ling001/RSPlay1.txt
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“Once you get below the male model level, handsomeness starts to get rather subjective.”
True…I think a woman’s judgment of “handsomeness” is related to game and comfort much more strongly than men’s judgment of hot is related to personality factors.
For most guys I know,
-being in shape
-hair cut appropriately (crewcut if balding)
-trimmed beard or no facial hair
-clothes that fit
-a good smile
Is enough to get the “handsome” label.
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I never had game before, and I’m constantly working on mine. Looks will get you only so far, and usually will get you the undesirable females who are generally unstable psychotic etc.
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Double post, new browser.
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Kaikou, i’m not in the UK – I live in Canada, but hanging around UK girls is hi-end social proof where I come from. It makes Canadian women that extra bit jealous as they think I’m bedding foreign sluts. I’m sure I could bed one or two if I wanted but why ruin a good thing?
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“Also important: non verbal communication.”
The eyes are a wonderful conveyor of “I want to shag you rotten’ without having to verbalise a thing. When you let them catch you looking at her and you don’t flinch, that’s golden. Gets them all amped up. Then you can hit the ignore button for awhile, then then them catch you looking again.
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Looks, while important, will only get you a bit more time and a slightly larger margin for error. I know several good-looking guys who never get laid, just like I know many average-looking guys who get laid like champs.
Roissy had time right (whereas an average-looking but well dressed guy may get 30 seconds, an attractive well-dressed guy may get ten minutes), and I’d say at most anything from 1-4 game slipups.
Brevity is the soul of game. Opener + conversation + she’s reacting favorably = go for the number or kiss as soon as possible.
Tight game can get you a number in three minutes.
Tight game begins to unfurl if run for more than five minutes.
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His biggest problem is incongruity. His looks and words didn’t match.
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Looks make it easier for you to get “auditions,” especially in meat market venues like bars and clubs.
You can’t run game if a girl doesn’t even give you a few minutes of her time to run game because she isn’t into your looks at all.
However, after that, Roissy is right.
If what comes out of your mouth starts to bore her or doesn’t make her gina tingle, then you are toast.
That is why game is so important, even for good looking guys.
A good looking guy w/o game will get a lot of “auditions,” but most of those opportunities will be wasted if your game in not tight.
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Black Rebel
“Such BS. How do you ever get laid if you’ve only got game for 5 minutes? (not rhetorical) Tight game does not unfurl in 5 minutes. Weak-ass shit is over in 5.”
Agreed.
Keep the conversation going as long as possible and escalate kino at around the 20 min mark, and see where that gets you.
Hell, if you get her comfortable enough by talking to her long enough, you can get a same night lay.
Girls don’t go home with strange guys unless they get very comfortable with them.
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while some of you guys will chalk this up to “haters gon’ hate” , i agree with Roissy in that i also enjoy watching douchebags crash and burn at the bar.
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Too many guys talk too much and don’t know when to shut the fuck up.
As a general rule of thumb, I’ve found that people – guys and girls – will come away from the conversation feeling it was an amazing one if they’re the ones who did the most talking.
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“ever seen footage of a all female party with strippers in attendance? There guys have nothing apart from looks and the girls go wild.”
That has more to do with the atmosphere of women getting to cut loose and act like men for a few hours. Few women would want to date a male stripper.
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“i agree with Roissy in that i also enjoy watching douchebags crash and burn at the bar.”
Uh, why do you enjoy this?
I am usually too busy focusing on getting laid to be “enjoying” other guys crashing and burning.
In fact, if I see another guy crash and burn, I actually have more respect for him since at least he tried.
The ones I have no respect for are the betas at the bar trying to act “cool” but doing no approaches and just providing “Monday morning quarterbacking.”
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Flahute:
Tight game begins to unfurl if run for more than five minutes.</blockquote
Such BS. How do you ever get laid if you’ve only got game for 5 minutes? (not rhetorical) Tight game does not unfurl in 5 minutes. Weak-ass shit is over in 5.
Perhaps my word choice was wrong. What I mean by 'tight game unfurls in over five minutes.' is that 'if a girl is interested in you, her interest will peak, and then wane the longer you go without making a move.'
If a girl is interested in you, the first five minutes she'll be thinking: 'Wow, I could totally see myself fucking this guy.'
But if you fuck up like a bobo and don't make the move, she's thinking: 'Why hasn't he made a move yet? Is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with HIM?'
Once you get a girl's head spinning in that direction, she rationalizes all sorts of bad shit and you aren't fucking her.
You don' t just put in your 5 and expect the bang. Maybe I'll put in a few minutes, go do something else, then come back to her an hour later to talk some more, talk to her friends, go away for a bit and come back at the end of the night.
And of course, the longer you talk to a girl, the more likely it is some 'weak-ass shit' will seep out; that's the whole subject of Roissy's post. I don't think I've ever fucked a girl that I spent the whole night talking to; chatting with the same girl all night is not only a good way to show low value but a huge waste of time.
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I wonder if bar game should be done quicker. Complete the 5 game stages get the number and get the hell away.
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“And of course, the longer you talk to a girl, the more likely it is some ‘weak-ass shit’ will seep out; that’s the whole subject of Roissy’s post. I don’t think I’ve ever fucked a girl that I spent the whole night talking to; chatting with the same girl all night is not only a good way to show low value but a huge waste of time.”
Did you escalate kino? Did you try a venue change?
I have never had a same night lay that didn’t involve an escalation of kino.
That is why 20 min is a good time to do this. She won’t think you are a creep by then, so that time is the best.
No one says talk her ear off.
The longer you talk, the more likely some stupid shit comes out of you mouth, but you also have more time to escalate the situation.
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Yet another pefect example that Game is nothing more than a non-chemical beta coping mechanism. Great looking guy running game gets destroyed. What tingles ginas is confidence; and confidence is earned by fire. Whereas Roissy’s success isn’t because of any secret combination or mimicing of behaviors, it’s the internalized confidence achieved via experience and success
Too many nerds and bookworms using the escape and avoidance of finding their balls and conquering their environment by sitting on the computer all day “reading” about how real men act (Game study).
Of course this comment will get censored. Nothing scares a beta more than any possible mention that Game is phony. Kind of like telling a Christian there is no God. Here comes the wrath.
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RE: kaikou
Also when/where are the Winter Olympics this year?
2014 – Sochi
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Just thought about this today. I have to agree.
Girls who talk a lot are the easiest for me to pick up. I still hate silences, so I end up doing the foot in mouth when I’m with a girl who is not talking, as I talk just to fill the void. When a girl talks a lot, it’s a lot easier to respond with concise, mysterious answers. Of course, the downside is that if she doesn’t have something interesting to say, you can get busted for not listening.
Last night I went out with a girl who only needed the slightest provocation to go into a long story…and most of her stories were interesting enough for me to listen to. Easiest date I’ve had in a while, I didn’t barely have any opportunities for the foot in mouth.
In contrast, the worst date I went on in a while was with a girl who was not much of a talker…she would just ask question after question and I would have to fill the void with stories. She didn’t seem bored, but after the date I realized I talked a lot more than I should have and probably revealed SOME detail that she didn’t like, even though I didn’t know what that detail was. Tried to kiss her and instantly got LJBFed. Hooked up with her a couple weeks later, but we were drunk and she ended up remembering whatever my past transgression was, as she stopped communication after that.
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“Of course this comment will get censored. Nothing scares a beta more than any possible mention that Game is phony. Kind of like telling a Christian there is no God. Here comes the wrath.”
How the fuck can game be phony?
Is learning how to swim phony? Is learning to read phony?
If you observe what other guys who have success with women do, and practice it, then you can become a natural as well.
Roissy himself had to practice in order to get better.
Your comment makes no sense unless you are talking about guys who only read game material and never apply it. If that is the case, then I agree with you.
Otherwise, GTFO.
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“I am still amazed how often men in successful pickups utilize game principles even when they don’t know they’re doing that.”
this is a tautology. the principles were arrived at by observing what works.
this statement would be akin to observing great boxers, noting what strategies and techniques work in a fight, labeling this catalog of strategies and techniques Kicking Ass — then watching a video of an old boxing match and noting: “It’s amazing how many Kicking Ass principles Muhammad Ali used without knowing he was using them.”
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“The guy was projecting his voice loudly so I couldn’t help but hear just about every word he said to the smiling girl who was listening intently to him.”
Bullshit. You were eavesdropping.
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@ anonymous
Like any other skill, trial by fire and experience is what eventually leads to true success…. and success breeds success.
BUT when a person is first starting out, a little advice and direction is extremely helpful. Then you can enjoy the self propelled success that comes from good results.
There is always room for improvement in any skill. Game study can still help sharpen one’s skills even if they are already successful and confident.
While reinforcing basic concepts, this blog and community also covers some upper level strategies.
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“Yet another pefect example that Game is nothing more than a non-chemical beta coping mechanism. Great looking guy running game gets destroyed. What tingles ginas is confidence; and confidence is earned by fire.”
You got your definitions confused. The great looking guy was not running any game, and got destroyed.
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Also, that “great looking guy” wasn’t running game. He needed some.
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Game by any other name gets one laid just the same.
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n contrast, the worst date I went on in a while was with a girl who was not much of a talker…she would just ask question after question and I would have to fill the void with stories.
my old roommate and i had a term for girls like this: deadbeats. they’ll talk as long as you’re asking questions, but as soon as you stop they just sit there. they are usually cute girls who are completely uninteresting, mostly cause they’ve never had to be interesting.
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my old roommate and i had a term for girls like this: deadbeats. they’ll talk as long as you’re asking questions, but as soon as you stop they just sit there. they are usually cute girls who are completely uninteresting, mostly cause they’ve never had to be interesting.
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anouk said:
Looks matter big time in terms of getting a foot in the door, especially when approaching out in the streets. If you’re good looking and and don’t look like you just crawled out of the gutter, few women have a problem with you coming up and saying hello. If you’re a troll, then you’re harassing her and invading her space.
Looks only really work against you if a woman thinks that you’re out of her league and figures that you’re only after a one night stand. Beyond that, chicks may expect a good looking guy to be cocky and a little bit of a jerk.
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@JR
my old roommate and i had a term for girls like this: deadbeats. they’ll talk as long as you’re asking questions, but as soon as you stop they just sit there. they are usually cute girls who are completely uninteresting, mostly cause they’ve never had to be interesting.
I found this. You need a different approach. Hotter girls are often like this. Their attitude is: I showed up. I did my job. Unfortunately, in the bedroom, they’re often like this, too.
It’s why a truly interesting hot girl is a prize.
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“True…I think a woman’s judgment of “handsomeness” is related to game and comfort much more strongly than men’s judgment of hot is related to personality factors.
For most guys I know,
-being in shape
-hair cut appropriately (crewcut if balding)
-trimmed beard or no facial hair
-clothes that fit
-a good smile
Is enough to get the “handsome” label.”
I wouldn’t rank myself within the top 20% of attractiveness (although I’m not fugly), and I am dating an absolute knockout who truly thinks I’m the hottest thing she’s ever laid eyes on. There is no doubt in my mind that the way I make her *feel* is directly tied to her perception of my “hotness”.
It also doesn’t hurt to be heavily social proofed by several of her girlfriends. They all think I’m a pimp. Gotta love it.
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“my old roommate and i had a term for girls like this: deadbeats. they’ll talk as long as you’re asking questions, but as soon as you stop they just sit there. they are usually cute girls who are completely uninteresting, mostly cause they’ve never had to be interesting.”
Few things in dating aggravated me more than a woman who acted as if she was to be entertained by the man. The attitude is loathesome. Someday they’ll be uninteresting, and no longer hot.
I find lots of people (particularly women) I meet to be insufferably boring. It hurts my chances to practice game, because I’m bored out of my gourd and can’t carry my attention span through the close.
It does, however, help me cop the I Am The Prize shtick.
“I found this. You need a different approach. Hotter girls are often like this. Their attitude is: I showed up. I did my job. Unfortunately, in the bedroom, they’re often like this, too.”
Bingo.
I also think hotter girls have lower self-esteem (part of the insecure drive that keeps them hot) and thus less inclined to stick their neck out to be judged, preferring to let someone else take all the risk.
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DJ-
““I want to shag you rotten’ ”
–consider that stolen. 😉
Specimen-
Nope. Just a personal preference on my part. I’m just indifferent to looks. I’m shallow in that I like a guy to have style and delivery of that style, but outside of that I don’t care much about looks. I’ve dated both good-looking and average-looking men. Once a girl bonds to the guy in some way, he becomes better looking to her anyhow, one of the pluses to the feminine rationale.
It’s the same as what you all say about good looking women not having to be interesting so they aren’t, it applies to guys as well. Looks don’t hurt but a guy lacking in this department just has to be interesting and maybe a little off beat to get attention. He’s not my type, but Owen Wilson runs this type of game well.
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Roissy, I believe you have called this Fuckup Avoidance Game in the past, or FAG, which is unarguablly dismissive. And yet the typical guy is only at this point- he can’t run any game until he stops being a doofus.
The guy was either clueless- for which there is no cure I know of- or nervous, and one of those people who start talking a lot when nervous. The first rule of Fuckup Avoidance Game is relax. People who clam up when nervous know they are nervous, but people who run their mouths tend to lose self-awareness.
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“Looks don’t hurt but a guy lacking in this department just has to be interesting and maybe a little off beat to get attention. He’s not my type, but Owen Wilson runs this type of game well.”
Are you saying you think Owen Wilson is average looking?
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Roissy,
You are such a good writer, fuck the donate button and get on with a book..A book that will save betas, marriages and the western civilization. The west needs to be saved because every other country out there is following the west, so if the US is going down the toilet with broken marriages, cuckold husbands and unhappy relationships the rest of the world is soon going to follow.
My guru the Asian Playboy used to advice me to game her up til the initial hook point, after that get her to talk, body language position urself so other alphas don’t interrupt, qualify and then take her home. The problem with the community is over gaming the girl with any material available.
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Z
“Men sure seem more moved by beauty than women. I bet they stop longer at scenic overlooks than females do, more deeply moved at the beauty before them. One blogger has noted that most of the truly great artists were males.” This is such a stupid comment.
a) Love of the beautiful and male lust aren’t the same thing b)you’ve related two completely different things and have made the assumption that the type of beauty of these two things is essentially the same c) opportunities in education and differences in upbringing (i.e., the active discouragement of girls interested in various pursuits by society) have tilted the field towards men in every profession, so naturally you would find more males in any one area d)if you found it a worthy insight that some blogger has noted that most of the truly great artists were male, you are especially stupid
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@Ceyx and Alycone
a) Love of the beautiful and male lust aren’t the same thing b)you’ve related two completely different things and have made the assumption that the type of beauty of these two things is essentially the same c) opportunities in education and differences in upbringing (i.e., the active discouragement of girls interested in various pursuits by society) have tilted the field towards men in every profession, so naturally you would find more males in any one area d)if you found it a worthy insight that some blogger has noted that most of the truly great artists were male, you are especially stupid
Most great artists are male because most great anything are male.
There are more men at the extremes – there are more great male everythings, and more complete loser male everythings.
At the extreme ends, there are just more males.
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“opportunities in education and differences in upbringing (i.e., the active discouragement of girls interested in various pursuits by society) have tilted the field towards men in every profession”
Really? What professions are the object of “active discouragement” by the powers that be?
All I see in American society is teachers, mentors, Oprah, etc. telling girls they can be anything they want to be.
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“and more complete loser male everythings”
true. the reason the male ego is more sensitive than female’s is because your ego tells you where you fit in the pecking order. if lots of us didn’t accept being losers the world would be a never-ending death match (like frogs in mating season) and the losers wouldn’t be around to do all the heavy lifting that keeps a human tribe or society going.
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“All I see in American society is teachers, mentors, Oprah, etc. telling girls they can be anything they want to be.”
you can also take that too far. if a girl wants to be a scientist and she has the ability, no problem. she just shouldn’t expect males to find her more attractive because of it.
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“Still smiling like a tard getting tickled, he shouted at her departing footsteps: “Hey, you better memorize my number!”
It’s like looking in a mirror sometimes.
I think the tragedy about game is how that this stuff was an undiscovered country up to 10 years ago (I’m not including R. Don Steele here). Spent most of my life floundering like this, and the worst thing is – there was no one to point out how this is wrong (friends tend to be equally clueless).
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Their attitude is: I showed up. I did my job. Unfortunately, in the bedroom, they’re often like this, too.
waithuhwhat?
in the bedroom, that is precisely her job: to show up. you’re supposed to lead.
the boldface statement is wrong on two counts.
first, hot girls will fuck with just as much reckless abandon as will their homelier counterparts. if you’ve observed a difference, then either (1) the uglier girls are faking enthusiasm in a bid to level up, (2) you’re confounding hotness with lack of experience, a likely occurrence if you’re selecting for partners with both, (3) you’re getting tooled and she’s letting it all hang out with another guy, or (4) you’re just making shit up.
second, even if you are selecting for the combination of hot + relatively inexperienced, it’s not like teaching a chick to fuck is rocket science. it’s really not functionally different from teaching any other form of dance in which you lead and she follows. up to and including the fact that the “follower” occasionally does the lion’s share of the maneuvering while the leader carefully directs.
in fact, if you are not willing or able to fuck a woman’s mind and body in ways that would qualify as legally abusive even in staunchly patriarchal states, you are MUCH better off pursuing relationships with women who are terrible in bed to start with, provided that case (3) above is false. in this day of female “empowerment”, the longer the relationship and hotter the girl, the more you have to out-fuck everything she’s ever had or even fantasized about having, or you are off that radar with a quickness.
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@Gorbachev
Did you even *read* my comment? (rhetorical question)
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http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/11/i-don-t.html
Most readers of this blog should like this article.
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j5,
in the bedroom, that is precisely her job: to show up. you’re supposed to lead.
Shit, yeah. One principle of game I should have learned long ago. Not like I wasn’t keeping my wife happy — she was satisfied enough never to consider straying, but that could be due to your last point about having no points of comparison (she’d never got past first base with anyone but me).
Anyway, in the last couple of years I have taken the lead in a really serious way and the results have been mind-boggling. She is so into it now that I can reduce her to quivering submission in a few seconds no matter where we are — she is conditioned. (Just after I finished the previous paragraph she came in from the garden and climbed on me, letting me know that she was looking forward tonight to being fucked for the 6th time in the last 48 hours.) And she has started to tell me how she loves that I can have her in any way I want her and that she is utterly at my disposal, a sentiment I never used to hear.
It helps a lot that at 48 she is astonishingly little changed physically — because she’s stayed out of the sun, kept in shape, and had amazing curves to begin with, she is still a legit 8, so I don’t have to fake any enthusiasm. She attributes what she calls our “sexual Renaissance” to having gotten over her problems with depression and anxiety, but the causality actually goes in the other direction.
The improvement in my “Inner Game” resulting from this has also been striking. I get far more IOIs from hotties than I ever did before, even though I am not trying any harder, and the increased temptation would be a problem if I had any unsatisfied libido — fortunately I am able to redirect the excitement I get from this into my own marital performance. (When my wife asked me this morning about my particularly quick recovery for another bout, which was triggered by a certain recent flirtation, I said “ask not how the sausage is made”….I got whacked pretty hard for that one, but I didn’t apologize or back off, and I could tell she loved the mystery….)
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An example of a confident, purposeful walk with swagger. Even dressed like that, the confidence makes it all cool
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Something else to remember is, when at the clubs, the hot girl you see talking to guido does not mean they are there together. Most times, it means he is running game and having some success.
But in 10 minutes, she’ll tire of him and want a real man to give her gina tingles and to tickle those tingles.
So, wait and watch a few minutes to see how it is going. And, while wating, open a nearby set. When the guido dies out, tell the current set to hold on a minute because you just saw and old friend and need to say hi.
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The G Manifesto nailed it in the second comment. This guy didn’t put his foot in his mouth. If had shoved something in his mouth he may have scored the girl. Instead he just would not shut the hell up and he kept talking when he should have been escalating.
The post title should be 50% of game is knowing when to escalate. Was this guy physical at all? Did he kino her? I bet not.
Though you are right that 50% of game is not putting your foot in your mouth. Putting your foot in your mouth is when you say one stupid/beta thing and then dig your own grave with it instead of making an alpha comeback.
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@ j r
Your first comment contains a really good point that needs to be underscored. For all that everyone talks (and talks and talks) about how an average-looking guy can date a hot girl, the natural order of things, at least until age 35, is for women to date up. The math of female hypergamy ensures that this will always be the case. Your average cute 25-year-old chick will happily go home alone if she can’t have a guy who’s either very good-looking, older and established, or otherwise successful and high-status. It’s the reason there are lots of mid-twentysomething guys who can’t understand why, notwithstanding their decent looks, jobs, etc., they’re either not getting laid or having trouble getting anything better than a 5 to give them the time of day. The reason most guys get into game is that they’re sick and tired of underperforming. At least that’s been the case with me.
Depending on lighting and your taste I’m either a strong 6 or a weak 7. This means that left to my own devices I can bang 5s reliably and 6s with a little bit of luck. Just to get a girl on my level lookswise (i.e. a solid 6 or a 7) I need to tighten up my game and, as this post brings home, train myself to not lose my shit during the pickup. Otherwise the 7 will just reason, correctly, that she’s better off saving herself for a higher-status guy. I’ve only been into the game for a few months, but with continued practice I hope to be banging 7s and some 8s – i.e. to be a guy who dates up – in about a year. Introducing the occasional 9 into the rotation would be nice, too.
Anyway, again, my point is that even though the regular Joe with a cute girlfriend is a cultural archetype, the more common situation among twenty- and thirtysomethings is for cute girls to leverage their possession of the most valuable commodity on the planet – hot, young box – to date up. For proof that this is so, look no further than the very existence of game.
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@PA
“”Sometimes the convo will lag. Don’t be afraid of dead air. With the right frame, a girl will worry if she’s boring you and do the work for you to rush and fill the silence, and things will pick up again.””
After weeks of having great game…I had an off-night last night for this very reason.
Girl I’d been gaming asked me a question on my opinion on something of mutual interest–opinion of other girls’ dancing.
I used it as an opportunity to establish dominance. I pointed out casually that her friends were excellent. Then I used it as an opportunity to plant the seed of doubt in her head by dismissing a few guys including one who’d been gaming her.
She was really interested in what I had to say. But I think I should have held back and engaged her a bit more.
My game was off.
Some nights I’m on and it all comes together. But when my inner game is off, like that guy in your example, I doubt myself.
In my example, I should have ejected sooner.
At one point, where there was a pause, I just got up without explanation or saying goodbye and just walked away to somewhere else.
In the second example….It was going like this….I was Hitch….
But…I failed to number close a girl this week that gave major IOI’s. It was going so well until that awkward moment of self-doubt crept in at the end of the night and held back worried that I might have somehow misread something.
In that case there was no failure of game, just a failure to number close and an awkward lingering between us where I think I should have done Gorby thing and just gone for it….But I hesitated.
Note to self: If in doubt….learn to walk away when the attraction is high.
PA/Gorby: How to recover next time I see these women?
Some pluses in both situations to establish alpha cred but then failure to take the lead or leave when I should have.
Game has brought me to a new level, but I still falter from time to time.
Is there ever a way to get a second chance in any future meetings without being the choad in that Hitch video?
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Roissy should write a book. How could it not be a huge success. I would buy it and give it to my son, for starters.
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“Most great artists are male because most great anything are male.
There are more men at the extremes – there are more great male everythings, and more complete loser male everythings.
At the extreme ends, there are just more males.”
Men are better at everything, cause they represent spirit while women represent matter. We are even aesthetically superior. Among all the animals, the male is the most beautiful one. Woman after all are only some birth devices.
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@Gotzon
lol.
I’ll take it as a given that you’re not part of the sample size.
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Same on the gay scene, Roissy. Be a dork, be a virgin. Be a jerk … ? Well, all fags are jerks, it’s built into our genes!! Game? Like everything else creative or intelligent, we invented it!
Love the blog, Roissy. You’ve a huge gay following (even if that does tarnish your alpha-ness).
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“Men need to stop projecting their fascination with looks onto women.”
Brilliant. A man can admire visual beauty much more than a woman. That’s why most artists and designers are men. I’m guessing men just have more extensive visual processing circuitry in their brains.
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GBFM
I txted a girl lzozlzllzlzozlzlzllzlzlz tonight.
what do
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OT:
Huff Post publishes more male/female BS:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maddy-dychtwald/gender-roles-are-men-stil_b_605974.html
The pretty lies really are everywhere.
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“Good looks can send initial sparks, (and sparks is all it is) but the allure wears quickly without compensatory game to buttress it.”
That is similar to a major weakness with the Natural Game teachers. They encourage men to radiate confidence for the initial approach, but they don’t teach routines, kino or her indicators of interest. This means that key moments are missed, and when that dreaded awkard silence comes, the aspiring “natural” just founders.
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Back on this – “what’s the equivalent of a smoke? I quit two months ago.”
I like any small object or objects that require controlled, deliberate hand movements. One idea is that you should have something mundane competing with the girl for your attention. Another is that you should look slightly degenerate.
In tearooms or coffee shops, I like the process of squeezing the lemon, mixing in the sugar, stirring, and then (almost mockingly) sipping the tea with an extended pinky.
In casinos or poker rooms, I like to lean back and shuffle chips, or prop up my arm and do a chip roll across my knuckles.
If you’re an artist or writer, looking away to make the occasional note or tweak a sketch works the same way.
Whatever; You can probably think of more. A lot of these are easy to think of in the moment.
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Paul,
Read the first paragraph of the article by one Maddy Dychtwald (please tell me that’s a stage name) and stopped.
“When I was knee-deep in research for my new book, INFLUENCE: How Women’s Soaring Economic Power will Transform Our World for the Better…”
Despite all the claims of “transforming” society, I still see women everywhere concerned about the same superficial shit…watching Oprah, fashion, worrying about whether they are hot, reading Cosmo and Glamour.
It’s been said by Roissy, Tom Leykis and others that career women don’t understand men aren’t attracted to your career the way women want a man who is climbing the ladder. But it appears that even with careers women want to value themselves by their looks and mateability in the most shallow of ways, and pretend she deserves for Mr Right to “take care of her.”
And the article subtitle: “Are Men Still From Mars?”
Men were never from Mars. Women were never from Venus. John Gray’s book, aside from being a huge confirmation-bias case from his therapy experience (where he only deals with fractured couples), is so strung with hopelessness it’s useless to anyone except a quitter who wants to throw up his or her hands and say “I’ll never understand you!” which is a failing strategy and a huge predictor of divorce.
My AFC Beta friend keeps telling me how women don’t make any sense. I continue to emphasize that women are not difficult to understand if you start with the premise that they don’t work like men.
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And finally, we have the eternal solipsism, courtesy of a Huffpost commentor:
“[discussing her friends who have 50-50 marriages] The dads are loving it and the kids are loving it. My question is whether the moms are loving it. I have noticed in the families with very involved dads there is a rising resentment in moms – dads are beginning to perform the well-documented double duty that had plagued women for generations (forever?) but increasingly it seems not to be enough.”
Probably the biggest single item in my discinclination to get married is that every woman I’ve been in a relationship with wants to have things both ways. Like if I pick where to go to dinner I’m dominant and controlling; if I let her pick I’m a wuss.
I know it would be the same in parenting: if I don’t spend enough time with the kids, I’m an absent father; if I do spend the time but don’t do it her way, I’m a bad father who is undercutting her authority.
It’s never enough, they can’t be satisfied. Also, women are learning that in exchange for gaining entry into the workplace, they have had to give up some of their presumed authority as “default parent” and they don’t like that. An interesting story in the NYBT noted that as recession families adjust to having Dad out of work more than Mom, the families that do the worst are ones where Mom is working the only job but still insists on being a control-freak parent when Dad could do the job just as well.
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@Badger Nation – I haven’t read much of Grey (skimmed a little) but I always understood his main point to be precisely that men and women are wired differently, and that this was the necessary starting point to understanding them [which I assumed he proceeded to attempt to do for both sexes]
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titan,
He started from a halfway decent premise, but in my opinion Gray goes way overboard in his characterizations, peddles pretty lies, and plays into the sense of entitlement women have wrt “I need to talk and talk and talk and talk all the time and if you don’t listen to me then you’re a bad man!!!”
His advice could also be radically simplified.
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http://globalvoicesonline.org/2010/06/09/china-ongoing-online-jihad-against-korean-pop-fans/
Women in China fighting to get free tickets to a pop concert of a douchebag BSB wannabe band, spit and punch the police,
one of them even falsely accuses the police of rape so they can get through the gates.
Chinese nerds proceed to hack the bands website and all forums and blogs of these groupies, launching a “jihad” against groupies and for national dignity.
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[…] Chateau: Saving Marriages One Blog Post At A Time, Contrast Is King: Identity Inversion, Game Is 50% Not Putting Foot In Mouth […]
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I hate watching other men fail. Whenever I see another man spitting game, I wish him the best. Fuck the haters.
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Men need to stop projecting their fascination with looks onto women; personality and alphaness are what electrify a woman’s pleasure center.
Do you think this guy gets a chance to show off his personality and alphaness if he’s below average in looks? Even if they don’t keep you in the game, looks gets you in the game, whereas there is no game if you get written off at first glance.
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Yes, but.
Looks are valuable more in some venues than others. Really for men it comes down to status. Looks are one portion of status. If you can up your status way above the crowd in other ways, you have compensated for poor looks.
There are 101 ways to up your status.
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For instance at the recommendation of this crowd I bought a fedora the other day. That hat, plus the mystery of my deep charming eyes, won me a the heart of little promotional girl in the shopping mall. She fell in love with me for 15 minutes, and would peek at me giggling from around supermarket aisle corners.
I may be a 4, even a 3 if shit faced drunk and tired, and short, and balding, but put in the proper location (Asia where there are few whiteys) and presented well, my grace and charms can melt even a 21 year old yummy.
Location=status boost. Hat=status boost. Magic eyes=magic eyes.
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“Men need to stop projecting their fascination with looks onto women; personality and alphaness are what electrify a woman’s pleasure center.”
Projection is a huge problem in dating on both sides. Women like mystery in a man, a “challenge;” so through projection (and stupid books like The Rules) they think that if THEY act like a “challenge” – which is usually to say flaky and bitchy – guys will be more attracted to THEM. But it usually doesn’t work that way. The guy either wants her loins or he doesn’t, and playing mind games is either confusing or a turn-off.
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«Probably the biggest single item in my discinclination to get married is that every woman I’ve been in a relationship with wants to have things both ways.»
If that’s the case that’s because the man is not dominant enough — you are describing shit testing. What many women want is a man who is like their perception of their father when they were 12, and that perceived father was not paying them a lot of attention and when doing so telling them what to do, and not trying to pay them attention and to please them both ways.
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«get you the undesirable females who are generally unstable psychotic etc.»
The goal of game is to get laid, repeatedly.
It is based on the assumption that that is all the prize that you can get, and there is little to no hope of a “meaningful relationship” with a woman, as many if not most are “unstable psychotic” (from a male point of view) anyhow.
If it is easier to get laid with “unstable psychotic” females, than that’s the game deal.
A “player” copes with the “unstable psychotic” side by essentially ignoring that as being shit testing, and by caring about his needs and goals first/only, and if the “unstable psychotic” side interferes with the satisfaction of his needs, passing to the next one, and if it does not interfere, then there is no need to care about it.
The basic assumption of game is that many/most women are almost only interested in “functional” (use him/be used by him) sexual relationships, and the only way to get laid regularly is to play their game, and care only about the one outcome that is available most of the time, and disregard everything else. In particular also to ignore those women who don’t put out that easily too; always move on to the one that is hot and puts out.
Sure, Roissy and others have posted a few times to the effect that this feels a bit mechanical/crude, but still that’s what is available.
BTW, I used to be a natural alpha (in a slightly different way) and women would throw themselves at me apparently without any good reasons much to my surprise and dismay; so I tried to aim for a deeper prize (merely getting laid and for shallow reasons felt beneath me, being quite conceited :->), and managed to get a few quality women (and some “unstable pychotic” ones) to actually fall in love with me (and reciprocated by me).
I was devastated when I realized that they resented that and felt very uncomfortable and anxious with having love feelings for a male. I think this is because it ruined *their* game, which is to regard males as “buyers”.
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Blissex,
Touche, although I think the American woman has been programmed to shit-test without limit and so wants an absurd level of dominance.
I believe this is where most men go wrong with women – particularly married/LTR ones. After the attraction phase where there is a lot of showmanship going on, guys get into this mode of trying to “please” the girl, to squelch her complaints.
This is another projection – most men basically want to please, and take mutual help as a bond of brotherhood, whether it’s doing favors at work, hanging at somebody’s house, buying the first round, you get the idea. This has been good for civilization. So a man’s first instinct is to try to “make her happy” by acceding to her stated desires, or by being proactive. Unfortunately, it’s not good with women…women take favors and nice-guy acts as preemptive responses to shit-tests (self-shit-testing?)
It’s the game of status, of substance versus style. Men care about what people do, women care about how people are – and paying undue attention to her emotional state lowers your value.
The One Truth of Game may simply be “once a woman gets what she says she wants, she doesn’t want it and resents the person who gave it to her.”
You are correct, a lot of fussing demands not a behavior change but a reframe. Don’t even address solving a particular tactical issue, like picking up your socks or watching more chick flicks. It’s pointless to solve the issue she is complaining about, because the complaint is the tip of a larger iceberg.
The good news is that, as Dave from Hawaii and others show, with game you don’t have to be a flat-out jerk; you can do nice things for your gal and feel good about it, _as long as you maintain your frame_.
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The issue you are having is one of linear perspective. Logical perspective. This, then this, then therefore this.
This liinear logical perspective only works when there is only one valid viewpoint. When there are competing interests and competing strategies, you have to hold multiple perspectives at once.
It gets even more tricky in that us men use our words logically, and assume that when a woman speaks what she says ought aso to make sense.
Throw all that out the window.
The woman does not want what she says she wants. Learn that knowledge, get over that knowledge, then apply that knowledge. It can work to your benefit. You will no longer be a disadvantage winning battles but losing the war.
Win only where it matters. Dominate the woman. Avoid small conflicts or completely over-power her in small conflicts. Never niggle. NEVER accept any battle on her terms. You have nothing to prove. Ever.
It makes no difference what women say. Ignore it. Learn what truly matters to them, and don’t fight reality. Work with reality, and reality will work with you.
Most things women say are to foster their own agenda, which you must assume will very often be at odds with yours. Be the strategist, not the soldier.
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«Same on the gay scene, Roissy. Be a dork, be a virgin. Be a jerk … ? Well, all fags are jerks, it’s built into our genes!! Game? Like everything else creative or intelligent, we invented it!»
This is a deeper point than you may realize.
Since women no longer run a big risk of pregnancy with sex, they can be behave in effect as males, and become promiscuous, predatory even. Whereas upon a time they would be mostly pregnant or raising children during their fertile years, so sex was laden with consequences.
The consequence is that the hetero sex market is becoming very similar to the homosexual male sex market (or at least its popular descriptions), with women in the role of twinks/flamers; a sex market ruled by attraction, casual hookups, and the top 10% in hotness getting all the action. With unstable pairings switching among being fuckbuddies, FWBs, non-exclusive but committed couples, occasional LTRs and other traditionally gay attitudes.
However both because of historical and essential reasons (as the *possibility* of at least intentional pregnancy) the hetero sex market and the homo sex markets and related games are slightly different. I don’t think that Roissy’s evo-psych idea that women dig hetero alpha (just gays may dig homo alpha) because of subconscious genetic preferences is that relevant (I think it is more because of daddy issues), but there are *some* fundamental differences.
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Badger Nation, your response seems quite reasonable to me. Roissy and others have discussed (also recently) LTR game.
As to the nagging and constant shit testing they become particularly tiresome post-seduction, but that’s the price for continuing to get laid keeping that gina tingling… There are legends that with time some women grow up, get socialized and are no longer driven by the gina tingle, leading to a more equal relationship, but seems to happen quite rarely.
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Blissex
All women have innate genetic Daddy “issues”.
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[…] Roissy – “The True Creative Class“, “Game is 50% Not Putting Foot in Mouth” […]
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@Badger Nation:
“”Touche, although I think the American woman has been programmed to shit-test without limit and so wants an absurd level of dominance.
I believe this is where most men go wrong with women – particularly married/LTR ones. After the attraction phase where there is a lot of showmanship going on, guys get into this mode of trying to “please” the girl, to squelch her complaints.””
Chinese women tend to also have a greater sense of entitlement and shit-test endlessly.
This is a curious phenomenon.
There are statistically more men than women in China and Hong Kong for a variety of reasons including the cultural preference for male babies.
But it hasn’t produced a male-dominated culture, just a more “patriarachical” one.
In other words, because women are the minority, they’re reframed so that they become more competitive for male attention.
Far from being submissive in their attempt to obtain and retain male attention, the situation has become such that the more competitive women get hotter looking and shit test.
Men who want to get laid fall into line hoping to please.
They’re so good at it, that often-times I’ve found myself being compliant to their shit-tests without realizing it.
It usually starts with some innocent request, then escalates from there.
Since becoming more aware of shit-tests, I’ve been erring on the side of asshole.
That produces reactions ranging from heavy sulking…to guilt-tripping.
It takes an iron will, and a massive willingness to walk away to even play in this sexual sandbox.
Of course the 5’s and 6’s….are more than willing to fuck you…
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“because it’s security and medicial R&D is largely underwritten by the American taxpayer.”
This is totally false. Sweden is a non-aligned country with a highly self-sufficient defense industry and very powerful military relative to its size. It also has the capacity to make nuclear weapons in a few months if the need arises.
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This was just SO elementary. he had plenty of attraction going initially to hand the convo over to her. But he didn’t. There has to be an exchange of ideas. She has to feel he hears her too. If he learned how to listen too, he’d be most of the way there with many girls. (Really you only half to half listen to make it work often enough, though I tend to want to really listen. Corresponding though I tend to only want to do with with interesting girls. I mean interesting between the ears the short way, not just around in front.
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“This was just SO elementary. he had plenty of attraction going initially to hand the convo over to her. But he didn’t. There has to be an exchange of ideas. She has to feel he hears her too. If he learned how to listen too, he’d be most of the way there with many girls.”
The paradox is pretty simple to understand. After he DHVs, he “donates” or loans his value to her by listening to her and letting her into a bit of his world. She responds by wanting to be around him, since she enjoys the status boost.
If a man lets a woman take over the set, he is no longer loaning, he is just pissing his value away by surrendering initiative. If a man doesn’t let the woman into his world, he isn’t loaning his value at all, and she will drift away.
Plus there’s the simple idea that while people love alphas, few people enjoy a blowhard.
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The previous pickup momentum, torqued in large measure simply on the strength of his looks and initial pose of confidence, dissipated with surprising rapidity as his “game” crumbled around him in a heap of monkey dancing, gum flapping, desperate body posturing, and cloying oversmiling. He began leaning into her in a vain effort to compel her to commit to the waning conversation, but she was already one foot out the door as her eyes darted around searching for a friend, a lifeline, to pull her away from this once attractive man. His inner beta had betrayed him.
Sounds like a plane crash I witnessed yesterday at church. Same deal: the guy was tall, good looking, and the only available male around but kept arrogantly yammering on about how he was going to get his PhD (he’s 24 and still doing lower division work at the local city college). It was the worst beta attempt to demostrate status I’d seen in a long while. The girl kept looking for the exit while smiling politely. He just droned on and on about himself.
The guy could have literally said nothing and probably done 100x better.
Way to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.
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Worst one I saw was older Polish guy at Latin Dance night…shows up and tries to game hot mainland Chinese girl who dances great salsa and has bit tits, wears short shorts and who I’ve been gaming.
Dance stops….Polish guy bends down at table and starts figeting through his bag…apparently looking for a pad and paper to….give her his number.
She’s waiting awkwardly. Then some guy comes by and snatches her onto the dance floor.
Polish guy looks up and she’s gone. He stands at edge of dance floor like kid watching boat pull away.
It’s easier to see these doofus mistakes in others.
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“Men need to stop projecting their fascination with looks onto women…”
Masterfully said!
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[…] This is something the game experts will tell you about. Novaseeker has said that women are attracted to social dominance and social proof above all else. A commenter at Roissy’s pointed out how women are constantly judging men and how to women, men… […]
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[…] of my proximity to their group, I couldn’t help but overhear the ensuing rapid fire chit chat. The men sounded like they had some rudimentary understanding of game, or at least of how to be […]
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