A man and woman have a conversation upon meeting for the first time. During it, the man learns that the woman works for a telecom company and graduated from Wake Forest. After twenty minutes, the man decides the pickup is going well and asks for the girl’s number, offering Thursday as a good night for them to meet and continue their prelude to a rogering chat. She gives it to him but apologetically explains she’ll be busy Thursday attending a friend’s charity event. He acknowledges this obstacle and they settle on meeting Friday instead.
Friday rolls around and the man, wanting to impress the woman, regurgitates some key information she mentioned during their initial meeting. The conversation then proceeds like this:
HE: Hey, good to see you again!
SHE: You too.
HE: Must be busy working at that telecom company.
SHE: Yeah, I suppose it is.
[Five minutes later, after some more talking…]
HE: So do you know any other Wake Forest alumni in town?
SHE: There are a few.
[More blah blah-ing…]
HE: By the way, how was your friend’s charity event yesterday?
SHE: Oh, it was pretty good.
***
If the impression you got from this exchange is borderline creepy stalker vibe, you’re not alone. The guy in my above example sounds TRY-HARD. Most girls would be put off by a man laundry listing a bunch of prior conversational touchstones to force rapport. Women complain a lot about how men JUST DON’T LISTEN, but in reality they are turned off by men who listen too well. Or, more precisely, they are turned off by men who listen for the obvious, but ignore the subtext. The fact is that a high status man would not remember much of what a girl told him anyhow, so men who have poor listening skills are often quite attractive to women, at least in the early stages of a seduction. Later on, in the midst of an LTR, when a girl is yearning for signs of dependability, love and commitment, a man would be wise to occasionally remember the little details.
I’ve written before how poor listening is many men’s downfall in the comfort building stage of seduction, but as game is an art as well as science, there are qualifications to some rules. Reciting a girl’s important historical and cultural moments back to her as if she were a history book you studied for a test is going to make you sound like you are trying to impress her, which is a tingle killer if ever there was one. The key to correctly impressing women is to seem like you’re not impressing them at all. Even better is to seem like she is there to impress you, while still saying and doing those things that will subconsciously impress her. The girl above will wonder (all wondering performed in the primitive hidden recesses of the hindbrain of course) if the man has any life at all if he can so clearly remember the name of the company and the date and time of a charity event that some random girl he met just once before had mentioned to him.
More importantly, this kind of rote regurgitation is *boring*. If you are going to recall anything about a girl, make it her values or her personality quirks or her opinions on whimsical subjects. Say she told you she likes the color purple, has a bad habit of cracking her knuckles when she gets nervous, and is a thrill seeker. Now, on the followup date, a demonstration of your listening skills might go like this:
YOU: If you crack your knuckles, I’ll know that means its time for another drink to calm you down.
***
YOU: Didn’t you say your favorite color was mauve, or was it purple? I’m hoping it’s mauve, because purple is the color of kings and queens. It means you are going to be high maintenance for any man. Are you high maintenance?
***
YOU: Let’s do something crazy and go down to the river to watch the moon rise. I figure you’ve got an adventurous streak like I do.
***
Hopefully, you see the difference in how to capitalize on your efforts to listen intently to what a girl says about herself. You DO want to let a girl know you’ve remembered things she said, but it matters *which* things, and it matters how you demonstrate your powers of recall. A truly advanced seduction artist listens for themes instead of dry facts, values instead of descriptions, and he relays his knowledge of her not by repeating her self-revelations like an overjoyed kid reciting the alphabet, but by slyly hinting at what he knows about her.

Good post.
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“A truly advanced seduction artist listens for themes instead of dry facts, values instead of descriptions, and he relays his knowledge of her not by repeating her self-revelations like an overjoyed kid reciting the alphabet, but by slyly hinting at what he knows about her.”
The funny thing about this is it’s actually much easier to remember themes than dry facts anyway.
Remembering dry facts is indeed try hard and men that do it, do it simply because they hear women say, “men never listen, blah, blah, blah.”
I actually don’t consider it a problem at all when a woman accuses me of not listening. Also, I tend to remember things once a girl reminds me… say on date 1, I ask her where she lives, she might say, “blah blah blah.” and then I’ll be like, oh yeah, she told me that when I met her, I remember now. They don’t hold shit like that against you, because they don’t remember every fact about you early on either…
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This is worth reading. Full book online at: http://addictedtowar.com/atw1a.html
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Not as smooth as the lines above but if you’re not sure you’ve already discussed something, caveat it with “Was it with you I was talking about xxxxx?” if yes, move on. If no, drive on and let her wonder who the other person is.
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Even better if you remember shortcomings either she has revealed or you have discovered and point them out from time to time. Double whammy of the neg and paying attention to her.
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Shameless plug alert — the post from “The Truth” at 12:16 doesn’t belong on this thread.
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This is especially a problem for those of us with exceptional memories and those that spend too much time Facebook stalking.
I wonder how many slip-ups have occurred since the advent of Facebook, whereby a man accidentally divulges he knows some personal detail solely from Facebook.
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if you’re a former beta, and most guys are, thetendency to listen to a woman will be strong. You’re looking for common ground, signals, trying to be respectful, etc.
Unlearning that is one of the hardest things to do – inner frame. Changing your attitude to women on a basic level.
Once you do it, though, a lot of things just get easier.
There’s always a risk of slipping back.
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On the topic of conversation, what’s the general theory on vocabulary size?
I have a pretty large one but I think it works against me by making me seem effeminate when I use precise words. It also tends to be off-putting to less intelligent (hotter) girls.
Does anyone else notice this?
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Very, very good advice. Ties into that earlier post about being surprising: girls may say they want you to listen to and remember every detail about themselves that they tell you, but being able to recite their resume back to them IS boring as hell. Much cooler if, instead of remembering where she’s from, you remember that she mentioned she’d love to go to ___.
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This sort of tracks with something I noticed, that gee, every girl seems to have the same story, a group of friends that they talk about. “Oh me and my college friend blah blah, my friend growing up, my frienemy. My mom said this…” It’s all the same, why listen? All the girl seems to care about in conversation about her friends or whatnot is the drama each added to her life or why she’s dragging you to her third grade BFF’s wedding.
So alphatude is recognizing that female conversation is fungible.
Once you have had a few girl friends, you should be able to distinguish between things that are important (what amuses you) and things that are background noise (names, places, jobs).
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@Matt
It doesn’t matter what you say but how you say it.
Don’t act pedantic or pretentious.
I’m smart, you’re dumb, is a great neg done properly.
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To a man, listening means hearing and remembering FACTS.
To a woman, listening means understanding what MAKES HER TICK.
When you understand game, listening becomes irrelevant because, after a few seconds or minutes, YOU ALREADY KNOW what makes her tick.
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Matt,
It is a basic skill, useful in all walks of life, to be able to say what you want to say clearly and simply. You shouldn’t need big words, although of course they improve the communication if the person you are talking to actually knows them.
If you use big words very naturally, you shouldn’t worry about putting girls off just from the use of those words. If you are trying to get across a concept too complex for the girl’s brain you are asking for trouble, but if it is something she ought to grasp and you use the big word naturally she’ll get it from the context.
It’s still better, if she doesn’t know the word, to use words she knows, but better to use a word she has to get from the context than to come across as condescending. There’s a fine line between speaking simply and dumbing-down, and you should cultivate your ability to use plain language without sacrificing meaning.
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Off Topic:
Men’s Soccer in US Title IX’s casuality
The Soccer Opportunity Gap in Pictures
http://savingsports.blogspot.com/2010/06/soccer-opportunity-gap-in-pictures.html
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This is interesting, because I had a recent experience where I just met a girl, and later that night I mentioned something that she had said earlier, and she lit up and was like “you remembered!”
She did not return my call…
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Matt, first off, make sure you don’t sound like this when you masticate your elucidation to the femalenation.
Big words ain’t a bad thing as long as you recognize congruency problems (you sound like Oswald Gates or you are talking to chicks who are high), follow polymath’s advice.
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hahaha.–
—
Tipper Gore’s Affair Suspicions Led To Split
http://foreign.peacefmonline.com/entertainment/201006/47294.php
We reported last week as soon as news broke that after 40 years of marriage, Al and Tipper Gore had separated. While friends insisted there were no affairs on either side, we now have a new report that for years, Tipper suspected that Al was cheating…and that this alone led to the Gores’ ruin.
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Poor listening skills shows disrespect and quasi-disinterest.
Key traits for a guy to have if he wants to bang hot chicks.
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Exclusive: Al Gore Cheats with Larry David’s Ex
Al Gore’s split from wife Tipper after 40 years of marriage was a shock to everyone who thought theirs was the ideal marriage. Now Star can exclusively reveal that the former Vice President was having an affair with Larry David’s ex-wife — for the past two years!
In the June 28 issue of Star, on sale Wednesday, we report that Al and Tipper’s breakup didn’t come as much of a surprise to one Hollywood player — Laurie David. Star has learned that Al has been having an affair with Laurie, who divorced Seinfeld creator and Curb Your Enthusiasm star Larry David in 2007 amidst reports she was cheating with the caretaker of their Martha’s Vineyard summer home
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Matt, Your command of language is a strong weapon if you use it correctly, i.e. to demonstrate psychosocial dominance. Calibrate to the intelligence of your target your use of things like wit, innuendo, allusion, etc.
Do not use your vocabulary to show your correctness or preciseness. That strategy is only for establishing yourself as the alpha geek in circles of men and is a huge turn-off even to intelligent women. That may be your problem.
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@advocatus diaboli
I wonder what came first in the Gore and David marriages, the relationships just sort of sputtering out or the cheating?
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[…] http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/women-dont-want-you-to-remember-everything-about-them/ […]
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http://thelp72980.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=3798&action=edit&message=1
You guys got a honorable mention on my page, it is a fast write up b/c I’m working my real job. but damn, pple need the truth! here is to the hope my gamma bro’s get it. they are good people but so misguided…and yeah they are my bro’s b/c I’d never date their sorry arses ever…
thanks for being a god send during my workday!
LP9
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Nah, it comes accross as insincere and annoying to question me repeatedly about some little detail I shared..its creepy and annoying to me and most other women.
It is a mark of a desperate dude. and I hate that and weakness…
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damn it! working too fast! http://thelp72980.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/chateau-roissy-equal-got-tickle-power-game/
hilarious errror on my part though!
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Another great post.
@ Matt, I think the use of an expansive vocabulary is a pretty weak parlor trick when it comes to women. Much more important is verbal intelligence, the ability to quickly and precisely convey meaning using language. Using big words can interfere with demonstrating verbal intelligence. I do think there are a subset of words that are not used commonly, but are commonly understood. The use of those words could convey intelligence to a girl. But obvious attempts at demonstrating a large and varied vocabulary are really no different than geeks who drop obscure historical or literary references in the middle of conversations, IMO.
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5 dollar words work as a brilliant filter. Whether use the right criteria to do so is a whole other discussion. Basically, if you want to screen for wife material, then by all means, use it. If you just want to get your brains fucked out ASAP, well then probably you should not use them 🙂
(Personally, I really have to force myself not to switch between English and my native language in the middle of the sentence in the wrong context because English just so happens to have a more accurate word or quicker way to say it and because all of my peers do it continuously, anyhow…)
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I’ll go the other way on this. Every woman is different. For your commitment-phobe, Carrie Bradshaw types, yes, it will probably hurt you to bring up minor details about her life too soon. But on the other hand, there are quite a few girls who want a man to make them feel like the only woman in the world, and recalling trite details can earn you points.
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Also remember to mix up themes from different women. This will happen naturally if you’re already seeing/banging lots of girls. Don’t apologize either. Use sparingly. She’ll know you’re mixing up your harem.
To paraphrase Paul Atredies “The juice must flow”
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I used to have this problem, because I’m one of those people who just doesn’t forget things (or, at least I used to be, before I discovered the joys of booze). One woman I met told me she really liked this particular song, Southern Cross, and I remembered that I’d heard her make a request on the radio several years prior, during which she explained that she’d grown to love the song while working on some Peace Corps type project in Central America. As she explained it to the radio host, much of her job included digging latrines.
Of course, I didn’t know her when I heard that request on the radio, but when I met her and she mentioned the song I knew it was the same person (she had a distinctive voice), so I asked her about digging latrines in Central America.
I’d swear the girl thought I’d been spying on her or working some kind of magic, because she never trusted me after that, and she refused to believe my explanation about the radio request. I got a bit of a kick out of messing with her head like that, but ultimately didn’t go anywhere with her.
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Damn, Welmer, that’s a hell of a story. So, remembering shit girls say is basically DLV. You may as well offer to buy them a drink or hold their purse.
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For me it’s somewhere between the two – remembering every detail and bringing it up constantly in conversation like the example conversation above (stalkery/desperate) and not remembering anything at all (player who can’t keep track of all the women he’s playing). And yes I’d expect someone to remember where I lived over what my favourite colour is, the latter would be particularly touching but not remembering the former has some warning signals.
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The specificity of his remembrances were much of the creepiness.
A more vague phrasing might have worked though – “didn’t you have some event last night?”.
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Her birthday is a good thing to remember. You don’t have to get her a present, especially if you don’t know her all that well yet, but if she has mentioned her birthday in your presence (even in a conversation with someone else), you’d better say “Happy Birthday” when you see her on that day (don’t wait or she’ll reveal it and you won’t get credit).
This is a shit test — forgetting fails, getting her a useless present like flowers or candy fails, to pass you have to wish her a happy birthday with either no present (implied neg), or a joke present, or else get her something she really really likes but had no idea you could possibly have known about, that would not be a present you would give a random girl. (That’s difficult but rewarding.)
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Welmer i have a very similar story.
I guy i dated told me he had been in a small “unknown” reality show back in UK where he was from, i asked what the episode was about, and as he was telling, and as the story went, i started to remember i have seen it 2-3 years before, and remembering it quite well, and for the weird part is that when i told him i have seen it, he freaked, later he told me in more detail why, but we never talked about that that reality show ever again…
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Thanks for the great responses guys. I think my underlying problem isn’t using big words (I don’t tend to) but rather getting too focused on details in my head while I’m speaking.
I guess I’m still working on adapting my conversational style to girls vs men.
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This is another example of double standards that supposedly only work to the disadvantage of females – she will remember EVERYTHING you tell her about yourself and will funnel it back to you in a way that is least complementary to you and most empowering to her – so speak in generalities, e.g., “my job is really demanding, but I’m uh uh gifted so its not much of a challenge anymore – I’m looking to branch out and start my own business” etc. Also, keep your personal documents secure or they will go through them.
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@ Polymath
“getting her a useless present like flowers or candy fails, ”
Roses never fail with a girl who already likes you.
“to pass you have to wish her a happy birthday with either no present (implied neg)”
Not really an implied neg; I wouldn’t except a present from a man I recently met. In fact, since presents from men oftern imply a price tag, a present might make me wary.
“or a joke present,”
Can easily backfire
“or else get her something she really really likes but had no idea you could possibly have known about, that would not be a present you would give a random girl.”
Bingo!! Doesn’t need to be expensive as long as it reflects a man’s knowledge of who the woman is.
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@polymath
Her birthday is a good thing to remember. You don’t have to get her a present, especially if you don’t know her all that well yet, but if she has mentioned her birthday in your presence (even in a conversation with someone else), you’d better say “Happy Birthday” when you see her on that day (don’t wait or she’ll reveal it and you won’t get credit).
This is a shit test — forgetting fails, getting her a useless present like flowers or candy fails, to pass you have to wish her a happy birthday with either no present (implied neg), or a joke present, or else get her something she really really likes but had no idea you could possibly have known about, that would not be a present you would give a random girl. (That’s difficult but rewarding.)
Poly,
I go with this. Here’s an example of a BD present I gave a while ago to a particularly difficult STR who shit-tested me all the time but was excused by being fresh and younger than any woman I’d seen up to that point (I’m weak, it’s true). I rarely get that lucky, so I just had to manage and deflect and it was a real learning experience for me. I got the BD idea from a friend who was learning about game.
I was just getting up to “game” speed. We’d been seeing each other for about 2 months. I’d not bought her anything yet, and she dropped a dozen hints. Her GF’s were giving her a BD dinner on the weekend. She wanted me there, and I was; but she also hinted that her actual birthday was a few days later, so I should do something for her then. I think it was a Wednesday. I was her BF, after all. I had obligations. She even half-jokingly said this at one point.
At her friends’ dinner, I didn’t give her a present, or after, despite my instinct to do it. She was clearly a bit surprised and disappointed. She didn’t call me on Sunday, and on Monday she broke down and called and I acted entirely normal, even cheerful. She never said anything, but eventually acquiesced and it was fine.
On Tuesday I had a day off (I frequently get mid-week days off depending on projects). I didn’t tell her, just called her in the morning. I came by, then suggested we go out. She thought – fine. She seemed surprised that I thought I could just show up and have her cancel plans.
I didn’t take her to a restaurant; no shopping trip; no clothing, no mall, nothing like that. She was a little flaky and would have gone for that in a heartbeat.
Instead, I took her to my childhood neighbourhood after an hour and a half-long drive; it was sea-side, so it was a nice place to walk. I told her some stories about growing up there, toured her, and then shared a lot about my family, what it was like. It was just a day out. I was dispelling some mystery about me in small pieces, in dribs and drabs. We ate fish (she paid); later, I picked up food at a farmer’s market and ended up back home. We spent the night at my place, and after midnight, I said, “Happy Birthday”. She made some comment (I don’t remember) about presents, and I said something to the equivalent of: I was giving her a piece of me. When I gave her a pastry I’d picked up during the day, and said, “It’s not a cake. But it’s for you.”
She snuggled right up to me all night. The STR lasted another two months, and ended amicably. I’ve seen her occasionally and she still has fond memories of me. The next year she called me on her BD (slightly drunk, I think) and thanked me for the great BD she had the year before.
Total cost of BD present for a younger girl who I used beginning game on: Gas and food from a farmer’s market, and my time.
It doesn’t need to be much.
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@ J
Re roses, I think handpicked wild flowers from a wood works better than roses from the flower shop. It helps if the girl knows they are actually from a wood (maybe during a morning birthday walk) rather than say from the local graveyard 😉
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@ namae nanka
Off Topic: Men’s Soccer in US Title IX’s casuality
Other men’s sports suffer also.
“Title IX quotas forced the elimination of 467 college wrestling teams, a particular target of feminist anti-masculine ideology. This shows that Title IX is not about equalizing male-female funding, since wrestling is one of the least expensive sports.
Other victims of Title Nining include men’s track and field and swimming. Title IX caused the elimination of all but 19 men’s college gymnastics teams and even forced Howard University to cancel its baseball team.”
Phyllis Schlafly writes about it.
http://www.creators.com/opinion/phyllis-schlafly/feminist-vendetta-against-men-s-sports.html
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Interesting post. Women who are interested in you however seem to be able to remember everything you told them.
I’ve had women bring up things I mentioned in passing 3 weeks prior—especially negs: “You said my tattoo looked like a cabbage”….
This is a strong IOI and I find this both charming and a little creepy depending on the item being brought up.
If it is a neg—it means it worked.
If it’s something like “You said that before….” it’s annoying and a sign things aren’t going well.
For any guy who wonders whether he’s made an impression on a woman, the fact she doesn’t call back has nothing to do with whether or not she remembered you.
If she hasn’t called you back…chances are she HAS remembered you…badly.
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@Lily
It helps if the girl knows they are actually from a wood (maybe during a morning birthday walk) rather than say from the local graveyard 😉
You’d be surprised. An emo girl might like the graveyard thing, particularly if you tell her they were picked at Twilight.
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@sdaedalus
Hah hah, yes girls do love their vampire types.
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Just for fun, read this.
http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-girl-talk-what-the-hell-is-happening-to-30-something-guys/?TrackID=obpaid&obref=obnetwork
She sounds awfully entitled, like, where is my perfect guy, already.
I wonder how Roissy would game a girl like this? Is it possible? Worthwhile? Thinkable? Obviously, marrying a girl like this would be a ridiculous idea.
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Remembering and acting on some details about each other in LTR can be quite amazing. At the beginning though, it may complicate the effort and create the image of a love struck puppy. On the other hand, casually mentioning a birthday coming up to multiple guys can get you some pretty cool presents.
[editor: are those gift-giving guys getting sex in exchange for their presents? if not, then there’s a word for that type of guy.
LA-HOOOOOOOO-SER!]
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“On the other hand, casually mentioning a birthday coming up to multiple guys can get you some pretty cool presents.”
Comments like that show that we must all preach the Gospel of Game, to save men from their folly.
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” On the other hand, casually mentioning a birthday coming up to multiple guys can get you some pretty cool presents.
[editor: are those gift-giving guys getting sex in exchange for their presents? if not, then there’s a word for that type of guy.
LA-HOOOOOOOO-SER!]”
On the other hand, if there is sex involved, there’s a word for the woman….
[editor: heh. this is why i prefer to get sex without purchase in presents.]
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@margaret
Remembering and acting on some details about each other in LTR can be quite amazing. At the beginning though, it may complicate the effort and create the image of a love struck puppy. On the other hand, casually mentioning a birthday coming up to multiple guys can get you some pretty cool presents.
Guys like that turn women into entitled princesses and whores.
One reason to hate betas. Though randomly giving presents seems even more pathetic than beta.
If only men respected themselves.
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“Or, more precisely, they are turned off by men who listen for the obvious, but ignore the subtext.”
–and Bingo was his name-o. Yep.
“but as game is an art as well as science,…”
–you boys, always trying to put things inside of boxes. A stronger lean towards the art of game and the indefinite-s of romance and seduction is what makes it enjoyable. Off the cuff baby. In the moment.
“Let’s do something crazy and go down to the river to watch the moon rise.”
–Me to date: OK!! You know me, always up for the spontaneous. Wait, you don’t mean the Potomac, do you? Yuck. All those dead intern bodies have a tendency to smell up the mood.
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I need an example of this subtext.
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And Gorbachev, how the hell does one keep that shit up assuming you see a girl for more than a year? If it is serious, how do you retain your edge without turning into a present puppy?
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No, these were my friends. And the girl in question is me. The birthday thing came up in a conversation and I was surprised and flattered by the response. I was being sarcastic and in retrospect I wish I would not have written what I did. I am sorry and I apologize to everyone I have offended. I realize I am not the target audience here but this blog helps me put certain things into perspective.
[editor: don’t be so apologetic. this place is a lunchroom. pick up a pudding cup or banana and have fun throwing shit around.]
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Absolutely true.
I’ve noticed that girls are more attracted to me when I forget their names repeatedly. I don’t try to forget, there are just too many of them to keep track of.
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@Jules Verne
And Gorbachev, how the hell does one keep that shit up assuming you see a girl for more than a year? If it is serious, how do you retain your edge without turning into a present puppy?
More than a year? Haven’t managed that in the past 4 years. Might say something about me. Of course, I haven’t wanted to manage it, either.
But if you were doing it for a year, … Anniversaries, BDs, Christmas, … Damn. They do add up.
If you’re in a committed LTR your game has to be different. You need to shift focus. LTR game is different from STR/Occasional Meetup or ONS game. I mostly do STRs, speckled with occasional SNS (several night stands), that usually morph into STRs.
So other guys are probably better for LTR game.
Come to think about it, I should think about this eventually. A lot of this is more instinctive for me now, but would have to be changed up for a LTR where I was getting comfortable. Standard PUA advice: Don’t get into an LTR. Not as useful for all of us.
I’d say:
Give presents on your terms, not hers. Whenever possible, make them presents for BOTH of you: A trip somewhere, somewhere you want to go? Make it clear you’re not pandering to her instincts. You get things (rewards) for your time together.
Jewelry
Avoid all the standard stuff: For me, jewelry is verboten, unless it’s some trinket from a Mexican market on the spur of the moment.
My rule is never to buy expensive or impressive jewelry. If she wants some, she can get it herself. If you DO get something, make sure it has extreme sentimental value, not monetary value.
Flowers
Maybe one rose. Just the symbol. When you could get dozens. Make it Less Is More. If you even get flowers. And don’t make a big deal out of presenting it, unless you do it with a flourish and then fuck her brains out all night. Then it’s more of a stage prop, which might be okay.
I once bought a girl a plant, and said: I think giving flowers is stupid, because they’re dead. This is the gift of life. She thought it was dumb, but two years later still had the plant – it was the only one she had. When I asked her why she kept it, she said with a smile: It was a special gift.
Random
One thing you can do, that always works a treat for me:
Make gifts random and sporadic, and non-standard. Dog training principles: Keep her off-balance.
You really want to blow her mind: Be a relative bastard about gift-giving, casual and cavalier, and then drop the bomb on her one day. Get her something she really wants, and is impressive, with no warning, and don’t make a big deal out of it. Then go back to being a general bastard about this sort of thing.
If you HAVE to give something, do it on your terms. Never, ever accede to demands.
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Margaret,
What you wrote was interesting – not offensive by any conceivable standard, let alone here: This is probably the least politically-correct website in human history.
And thank God for that.
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@Jules Verne
And Gorbachev, how the hell does one keep that shit up assuming you see a girl for more than a year? If it is serious, how do you retain your edge without turning into a present puppy?
In an LTR, you might have to drop money or provide presents sometime; not all of us can be thugs on a bike 24 hours a day. Or even a few hours a day. Sometimes we need to pony up.
If you do it, the casual, random way is probably best.
Christmas is an exchange. That’s okay.
BDs are a problem; you need to be novel every time. Novelty is core.
But let me give you a warning.
I always planned wonderful, heart-filling anniversaries for my wife. One of them was truly spectacular. She appreciated it at the time. She got bored and Beta-ed me anyway. That kind of special is what women say they want, but they’ll still tingle for something else.
Be bad boy. If you’re going to give her something, keeping it random does this:
– She can’t complain you never do anything or give her anything, so it shuts her up;
– And you still haven’t given in to her Make Him Beta demands. If she demands, ignore.
Have a stock list of responses and believe them.
Her: “You never do X”.
You: “That’s materialistic. I give you my time, it’s more precious.”
Her: “They have X”.
You: “They also do X/ are X (bad). You want that too?”
Her: “My friend’s husband did this.”
You: “I’m not him. I don’t want to buy you. You’re better than that.”
Her: “You can be more generous, you know.”
(MAJOR shit test; DO NOT fail)
You: “Buying you X means nothing. Anyone can do that. I give you something more valuable: Me/My time/My Soul/ etc.”
If she’s asking you for shit, counter with: You don’t need it, that’s useless.
Make it a NEG: “You need that? For what? – Don’t be shallow/retarded/girlish”. You might lose on the short term, but you’ll win in the long term. You just avoided being a chump, and advertised your higher status, and then negged her. No woman likes to be called shallow, even when they are. It’s a major blow; it means she’ll contort herself and rationalize but probably won’t be able to ask you again without damaging her own self-impression.
Look at these things as *opportunities* to reinforce your power: Neg/subtly neg/reinforce value/show disdain/drop Nuclear gift-giving on your terms.
The best way is to deflect and then smack her with a surprise on your own.
BUT
Don’t wheedle, whine, or expect anything in return. That’s just paying for attention, sex, or whatever. That’s try-hard. Avoid try-hard. You get nothing in return, … at that moment. It’s patience.
Much better to give her something and then walk away, disinterested as usual.
That really fucks women up: Be calm and casual and disinterested, and give her something nice, then don’t call her until she calls you. Their brains just torture themselves about it and you get under their skin even deeper.
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“Most girls would be put off by a man laundry listing a bunch of prior conversational touchstones to force rapport.”
no they won’t .. dude .. its just the basics .. if they like you already they would love you to form rapport .. ACE folks .. taken from that context all else is mere details ..
[editor: if the chick is really into you, then you can get away with pretty much anything. no need to bother with game. but for most men, they will have to abide some basic rules of courtship and human psychology.]
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gorby, u pretentious shithead. dont give her a rose. u might as well say u will lick her ass.
a daisy is always better.
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Guys, it is 2010. While roses are a classic, they are an over-priced, unoriginal one and most, if not all, are shipped from South America without being in water on the plane so it cuts their life in half.
Skip daisies unless they are Gerberas and buy in mixed colors.
Skip roses –but if you insist on buying them, present them in style by asking for them to be cut down and put into a bubble bowl vase. It is chic, elegant and classic. Choose ANY color over red. Peach is nice. Lavender is better. Do not do long-stem in a vase with babies breath unless you were born before 1960.
Go with Calla Lilies, Orchids, Peonies, Hydrangea, or any tropical flower. Tropicals last twice as long after being fresh cut and you’ll be schooling her in style (a.k.a. being her “daddy) and be getting more for your money. Never buy flowers from a grocery store, they have low quality.
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“if the chick is really into you, then you can get away with pretty much anything. no need to bother with game.”
–sooooo true. This needs a post. When NOT to use game.
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“You: “That’s materialistic. I give you my time, it’s more precious.” ”
Nauseating. Sounds like a beta attempt to appease. Something like “No problem, I’ll do X every day from now on then. And twice on holidays” (in calm sarcastic tone, of course) would be much more effective.
“You: “Buying you X means nothing. Anyone can do that. I give you something more valuable: Me/My time/My Soul/ etc.” ”
That’s even more nauseating.
“You: “They also do X/ are X (bad). You want that too?””
Saying “you want that too?” is too defensive and weak. And if you’re dealing with someone with the common sense to come back with “come on, that’s not the point. You need to be more generous”, then you’re stuck
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“into you, then you can get away with pretty much anything. no need to bother with game.”
–sooooo true. This needs a post. When NOT to use game.”
but guys like me who were slacker musicians in their 20s never had to use anything but a guitar to get chicks. suddenly, in the work world, guitarless, ive got no clue how to approach a girl because i am used to them approaching me.
so learning pick up skills is good whether u need them at the time or not. u will probably need them later.
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“5 dollar words work as a brilliant filter. Whether use the right criteria to do so is a whole other discussion. Basically, if you want to screen for wife material, then by all means, use it.”
Not necessary. Just let her talk long enough (and ask questions.) The depth of her reasoning will reveal all you need to know.
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“but guys like me who were slacker musicians in their 20s never had to use anything but a guitar to get chicks. suddenly, in the work world, guitarless, ive got no clue how to approach a girl because i am used to them approaching me.”
–you could carry your guitar around with you….ha,ha. Or possibly open your bag and have countless guitar pics fall out next to a table full of girls…a la Matt Dillon’s character in “There’s something about Mary” with the architect drawings and Nepalese coins. God that movie was classic.
frank-n-beans….
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“if the chick is really into you, then you can get away with pretty much anything. no need to bother with game.”
Not to be a pedantic fuck, but if she’s palpably into you, it’s comfort or closing time, which is part of game. Everything’s “game” as long as you’re interested in closing, even doing “nothing.”
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Details, details… me who are too good at details with women catch on when they say they’re out “staying up with sick friend” whom they said earlier was going to visit her parents that day (then comes looking for strange repetitive cell phone numbers from some guy on her cell phone right before then).
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I’ve noticed that girls are more attracted to me when I forget their names repeatedly.
Reminds me of when I was around puberty and an auntie-type was giving me a clucky hennish facts-of-life talk, centering, naturally, on respecting women. At one point she said: “and one day, when you sleep with a girl, make sure you…”
at that point, my old man, who’s seen and done a lot in his life and spent much of the rest of it drinking to obliterate the memories, speaks up from another room in a world-weary way:
“… ask her name again.”
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@Anoukange,
Guys, it is 2010. While roses are a classic, they are an over-priced, unoriginal one and most, if not all, are shipped from South America without being in water on the plane so it cuts their life in half.
Better: Don’t give flowers.
Ever.
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Excellent.
I somehow intuited this when I first started learning game and actively shut it down. I have a very good memory, so I usually remember all those stupid little details that girls tell me about their background. But now I pretend I don’t even remember their names.
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@jh
“You: “That’s materialistic. I give you my time, it’s more precious.” ”
Nauseating. Sounds like a beta attempt to appease. Something like “No problem, I’ll do X every day from now on then. And twice on holidays” (in calm sarcastic tone, of course) would be much more effective.
In a LTR where you’re comfortable, dismissive sarcasm can bite a lot of guys hard. Depending on the woman, you can get Big Jerk points, and not Cool Jerk points.
On Birthdays, Christmas, etc. – you *have* to pony up something. Lots of women will want to be impressed. And it’s usually material. A lot of women are severely materialistic. Avoiding giving stuff in a LTR can be near next to impossible.
You can’t always act like an asswipe. Sometimes you need to give something, … so it might as well be something you didn’t spend money on.
“You: “They also do X/ are X (bad). You want that too?””
Saying “you want that too?” is too defensive and weak. And if you’re dealing with someone with the common sense to come back with “come on, that’s not the point. You need to be more generous”, then you’re stuck
Okay. You’ve been with a woman for, say, 5 years. At some point you’ll have been pretty comfortable. You have to believe what you say, have reasons for saying it, and stick to them. Endure a shit test if it happens.
But you can’t be Superman every day and on every occasion in a LTR. It may work for a few months, but after a couple of years you might just look like a shitty asshole, and sometimes you’re going to have to bend.
You need the right attitude so when you do have to give something up, it’s on your terms and not hers. She wants a $1000 necklace? No way in hell do you get her that. Anniversary: Time to buy a new car when you don’t need one? Screw that. Etc. Getting out of that situation, you might have to surrender something.
You can’t be tough all the time. Keeping her is not the same as getting her.
But what do I know – I haven’t managed a more than 1 year relationship in years. And didn’t manage it all that well before, frankly.
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@PA
Reminds me of when I was around puberty and an auntie-type was giving me a clucky hennish facts-of-life talk, centering, naturally, on respecting women. At one point she said: “and one day, when you sleep with a girl, make sure you…”
at that point, my old man, who’s seen and done a lot in his life and spent much of the rest of it drinking to obliterate the memories, speaks up from another room in a world-weary way:
“… ask her name again.”
Couldn’t stop laughing. There’s gold in them thar hills.
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O Henry has this to say about women …
“Women,” said Judson Tate, “are mysterious creatures.”
My spirits sank. I was not there to listen to such a world-old hypothesis–to such a time-worn, long-ago-refuted, bald, feeble, illogical, vicious, patent sophistry–to an ancient, baseless, wearisome, ragged, unfounded, insidious, falsehood originated by women themselves, and by them insinuated, foisted, thrust, spread, and ingeniously promulgated into the ears of mankind by underhanded, secret and deceptive methods, for the purpose of augmenting, furthering, and reinforcing their own charms and designs.
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bring back the thumbs up thumbs down so we can sink anakounge’s spirits
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Wow – Roissy just mentioned the #2 reason why I permanently left the USA for greener pastures in Russia and Eastern Europe: the paranoid-schizophrenia of those trained by American feminists to hate the most intelligent and perceptive of males.
I can juggle dating 4 new women and still remember where each one works and what one has studied. Whereas most game tactics are easy to apply, the idea of pretending to forget things makes me sick.
This needs to be discussed at Feministing.
There is no word for “stalking” in any other language besides post-feminist English. Where I live, women simply don’t understand the concept. Men need to live in places that are innocent like this.
I’ve seen the phenomenon Roissy describes with Sex and the City types in New York and Boston and San Francisco. Anyone who would think less of a man for remembering key details like that Wake Forest woman did in Roissy’s post would be a definite future divorcee for some unlucky man. The self-centered paranoia was nauseating to read about…yet Roissy speaks the truth about how entitled princesses think.
I had a friend in New York who worked at Chase and started dating a coworker from uptown. One day he was at a meeting uptown and decided to visit his new paramour at her desk. But she had already left for the day. He left her a post-it note at her desk. She told him the next day that what he had done was “creepy” and the relationship was over and she never wanted to hear from him again.
She was a mentally sick, highly disturbed young woman.
In most human cultures, he would have done nothing wrong.
In fact, I have used the Chase story to screen out disturbed women in New York before I spent money or wasted an evening on them.
The next time I get to know a big city Anglo woman I may just bring this topic up – ask her directly – and tactfully – if she is mentally disturbed enough to have a problem with a man remembering what job she has from one date to the next.
Outside the Anglo world “love at first sight” game is still practiced as a given in many budding relationships. You are supposed to make her feel like the only woman in the world…or at least show you have the brains to give that impression in a society where every woman knows a man like you has 3 or 4 girlfriends.
In the USA, flowers practically have “stalker” written all over them. In Eastern Europe, they almost undress women on their own. The behavioral/attitude difference is stark.
While it is universally true that an alpha can get away with forgetting major facts about a woman between the meeting and the first few dates, remembering key things like where a woman works and where she went to school or was raised, is – in mentally healthy cultures – a major plus.
That Wake Forest graduate – heading for the Wall at 900 miles per hour – should have gushed with joy at some guy remembering that she went there.
This is the one post of 2010 that I would like to see spread out across many blogs for discussion, especially in places like Feministing.
It is a real modern post-feminist Anglo Saxon idiosyncrasy and it is unacceptable for those who know life’s short and the pickings are better elsewhere.
As I’ve noted before, my #1 reason for choosing to live in places with better looking, better-behaved women, is the way that Anglo-Saxon parents and friends tell young women to avoid financially secure older males – remarkably stupid advice that destroys the patriarchy and only benefits cougars and short-sighted younger males.
But the older feminists and short-sighted young males are quick to argue back on that point.
What Roissy just described, paranoid-schizophrenia, could find few intelligent backers at Feministing or any pro-feminist blog.
The only way the anti-male attitude of the Wake Forest woman could be defended by feminists would be for them to trot out the tired idea that, because Ted Bundy was charming, intelligent and interested in picking up women, all men who find a woman interesting and want to game her are suspected of being dangerous.
Then again, Ted Bundy didn’t care what any woman’s name was and dozens of US women fell in love with him when he was in prison…go figure.
I constantly forget important details women tell me…and it doesn’t hurt me (it could help as a neg with a dumb 9 or 10)…but the women who are marriage material react extremely well to a man who has the mind and memory of a steel trap.
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Yeah, a fuckin’ amateur stalker.
Shortly after we meet up:
Me: I liked the perfume you had on this morning.
Her: How did you know that?
Me (ignoring the question): Do your parents still live at 1301 Riverside Dr.?
Her: Stop it, you’re hurting me!
Me: We’re gonna be together forever.
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Hmm hmm. Knowledge is power. On the girl side of things, my tactic has always been to remember what he says but never let on. Keep it fresh. Nobody needs to know that you remember that awkward moment from two years ago in vivid detail. Etc.
Don’t look back.
At the same time, if there are any sensitive topics it’s a good idea to remember what’s up, obviously.
This is such crap advice…for dog training. People who own dogs know that “keeping it off-balance” is a very bad way to train a dog.
Re: Gift-giving. Flowers have their time/place. I’m not big on flowers, but I enjoy the gesture. My guy got me flowers for my birthday (our first year together). It was sweet because he remembered (okay, no he didn’t — to this day he insists that my birthday is December 3), but I’m sure the deciding factor was convenience. There was, after all, 3000 miles of heartland separating us.
The next year he got me a Nintendo Wii. It was the awesomest present ever.
Of course, he gave it to me on December 3.
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Hehe, once again Unlearning has proven to Pupu that he is a just-past-puberty lad feeling ever more confident and insatiable mentally. In this process toward his personal enlightenment, only one kind of mysterious creatures gets in his way. If they are trivial or uninteresting enough, our lad could comfortably ignore them, but they aren’t, so he cannot. In a world of accessible reason and logic, our lad deems those creatures evil, a synonym for mystery in his thesaurus.
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That is a long comment for pupu, I am amazed.
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“O Henry has this to say about women …
“Women,” said Judson Tate, “are mysterious creatures.”
My spirits sank. I was not there to listen to such a world-old hypothesis–to such a time-worn, long-ago-refuted, bald, feeble, illogical, vicious, patent sophistry–to an ancient, baseless, wearisome, ragged, unfounded, insidious, falsehood originated by women themselves, and by them insinuated, foisted, thrust, spread, and ingeniously promulgated into the ears of mankind by underhanded, secret and deceptive methods, for the purpose of augmenting, furthering, and reinforcing their own charms and designs.”
I couldn’t agree more…we’ve been pumped full of this idea that women are inscrutable and impossibly mysterious. It’s total bunk!
That is certainly a large part of why there are game haters…some people never want to give up their power, even (especially) power based on a fantastic lie.
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@ Lily
“Re roses, I think handpicked wild flowers from a wood works better than roses from the flower shop. It helps if the girl knows they are actually from a wood (maybe during a morning birthday walk) rather than say from the local graveyard ;-)”
A matter of taste. I’d take either actually.
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@Gorby…
“Guys like that turn women into entitled princesses and whores.
One reason to hate betas. Though randomly giving presents seems even more pathetic than beta.
If only men respected themselves.”
What made me discover “game” was pining away for a woman who came on strong and when I reacted, slowly took away everything she laid out at the beginning.
I was clueless…
So I tried everything…including gift giving.
You know what it lead to?
MORE gift giving….and less attention from her, more flaking, less respect…
Now I don’t supplicate.
But like most things with game, the rules are there but require common sense.
It’s not supplication when you do something without consideration of the outcome.
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Great post.
Off-topic, but New York is close to approving no fault divorce.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/nyregion/16divorce.html
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@ Granmpa
“She sounds awfully entitled, like, where is my perfect guy, already.”
How so? She points out the very same phenomenom that the guys on this blog are always going on about. If a women doesn’t nab a guy when she’s young, all the good guys will be gone. And because her “market value” is diminishing, she better hurry up and settle. Isn’t that the thesis of this blog? She’s attempting to write about that from a female point of view, in a humorous vein.
In NYC, I’ve read, young single women significantly outnumber single men. Many of the good ones really are taken. Certainly, the men with the best social skills will go first. (Since I am a mere woman, you may not take my word on the last part. Google autism expert Simon Baron-Cohen–yes, that is Sacha’s cousin– and his theory on why older men sire more autistic kids than younger men do. It’s not the age of the man that’s the issue. It’s that an older father is more likely to be on the autism spectrum himself than a younger man is. He marries/breed later because of his poor social skills. And what is game but an attempt to teach those skill?)
There is also an active single scene in NYC (or any big city)that encourages douchy behavior from men as they realize that they have the numerical advantage. Even the nicer men will eventually take advantage of that disparity.
I’m sure the essay accurately portrays the situation from her point of view. There are probably men who would say that she’s wrong, all the good ones aren’t taken, plenty of good guys can’t find women because girls like her won’t “settle,” are looking for alphas, etc. But from her perspective, all the good ones–who incidentally are probably mostly beta providers, to use the descriptor of this blog–are taken. Those are the guys with nice social skills but a motivation to settle down early.
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@lilgrl,
Make gifts random and sporadic, and non-standard. Dog training principles: Keep her off-balance.
This is such crap advice…for dog training. People who own dogs know that “keeping it off-balance” is a very bad way to train a dog.
Whatever.
One very simple principle: Superstition.
Treats: Give them out, … sometimes. A rate of 30-60% works best. I find 1/3 is the best ratio.
Too little, and the dog loses faith that a treat is forthcoming. Too much, and the dog thinks there’s always a treat and thinks that he’ll get the treat anyway and won’t perform.
Do it just enough, … but not guaranteed, … and the dog always performs as well as he can because he… might… get… that… treat… this time.
“Superstition” is the only way to manage that. Also works in combination with clicker training, and all animals; I clicker-trained a chicken years ago and the variably-delivered treat reward combined with clicker training had the chicken sorting little plastic cubes in no time. Of course, the sorting – itself – made no sense. It was just cool. But it took 5 days to get it to perform on call.
Exactly the same principles work with humans. Women and treats especially. Very effective.
The only drawback is that there are defined dates in the calendar that need to be addressed.
Roissy can maybe chime in about what to do in a LTR in this scenario.
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Hi @J –
Your logic is slightly off there. The young and old men with the best social skills (game) are, by definition, never “taken”.
That woman blogger couldn’t have been attractive because plenty of guys in LTRs and MLTRs would have found time for her as “not having a gf” if they were interested.
I was surprised/amused when she wrote that men would meet with her and then *tell* her “I have a girlfriend”. Mostly only betas would tell a 9 or 10 that they already have a gf.
An alpha, who finds a woman irresistibly attractive, would close the deal in bed and then maybe discuss the others in his MLTR after the fact.
She is clearly being passed over by the best men in their 30s, presumably because she is already in her 30s herself and has a western-style entitlement complex about *deserving* men her own age.
But that is OK because plenty of alphas in their 40s would just tell her that they are in their 30s…*if* they were attracted to her.
I would recommend that she look for winners in their 40s, of which there are legion in Manhattan.
It also goes without saying that she will have to join some man’s MLTR and push for supremacy.
The best older alphas have never married precisely because they are not beta. Their sex life actually gets *better* over time and 30 year age difference relationships are not uncommon for this type.
Regarding the autism canard: that was first talked about in regard to older women having babies but the older feminists counter-attacked and slandered older men in the never ending attempt to stop younger women from dating older men.
The fundamental drive of feminism is, arguably, to stop older men from having sex with younger women.
Meanwhile, I find a lot of women in their 30s, 40s and 50s to be gorgeous – but they are often really taken.
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jerry:
I’ve seen the phenomenon Roissy describes with Sex and the City types in New York and Boston and San Francisco. Anyone who would think less of a man for remembering key details like that Wake Forest woman did in Roissy’s post would be a definite future divorcee for some unlucky man.
jerry, how are things on the spectrum these days?
what’s being held against you isn’t your retention; it’s your verbal builimia.
the obsessive memorization of FACTUAL personal details is the classic behavior of followers, not leaders.
leaders could give half a shit about demographic, occupational, and demographic data.
not to mention that, yeah, it is creepy.
e.g.
normal guy to girl: “mmm girl, i love your big ass, shake it for me”
jerry: “yeah girl, shake that 32-24-34 body for me, you turn me on even more when your period takes you from a b-cup to a small c-cup”
you get the picture.
just learn her buttons — the themes that trigger her emotions (both positive and negative) to the greatest extent — and swing her back and forth with increasing amplitude.
if you insist on being a spectrum boy who places a premium on facts above vibes, then at the very least go out and create the facts with her. like go fuck her in an old church and then make references to that genre of architecture.
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gorby: Treats: Give them out, … sometimes. A rate of 30-60% works best. I find 1/3 is the best ratio.
meh. you’re still operating on the assumption that the binary of “treat vs. not treat” is objective.
why don’t you just recalibrate her mindset, to re-brand everyday things as “treats”? then you don’t have to waste so much brainpower on percentages.
step 1: train her to work hard for such things as kisses, which will then become the “treats” in question.
or, if you’re feeling tired or listless, replace “kisses” with “acknowledgment”.
you have now advanced the subjective notion of “treat” from actual treats to relatively neutral things. also note that this step provides you with (limited) insurance against creeping beta tendencies; i.e., if you just can’t resist the temptation to pda her and tell her how much you wuv her, this training will ward off at least her initial revulsion at such behavior.
step 2: keep pushing the frame until things normally construed as punishment are now “treats”.
step 3: occasionally give a traditional gift, an action that, if you’ve completed steps 1 and 2, will be weirdly nuclear in its potency.
most importantly, stop being so goddamn rational all the time.
hint: fucking (of both the mind- and pussy- variety) is a lot more fun if you’re being irrational and letting yourself be “swept away”.
my god, i can’t imagine having to think as much as you people. this is what’s hilarious about newbie pua’s: they try to respond to irrationality by doubling down on … rationality.
learn to think like a woman better than a woman.
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J:
“If a women doesn’t nab a guy when she’s young, all the good guys will be gone.”
So, why didn’t she? Too picky? Perpetually dissatisfied? The number one problem interfering with females maintaining LTRs or marrying younger is female friends. The second is female relatives. Female friends: they encourage pickiness, they encourage flightiness, and they attempt to sabotage their peers’ relationships because, after all, they’re only “looking out for their BFFs.” Female relatives: similar problem, manifests slightly differently. Honestly, a female relative encouraging a 20yo female to marry would probably prompt a call to child protective services, since adulthood no longer begins at age 18. And god forid, if you date “too long” and are content with cohabitating.
God forbid, another female witnesses her friend show any form of submissiveness to her male partner. Nothing can kill a healthy relationship quicker than the meddling of not-so-well meaning female peers. The author is still single in her 30s probably because she put her female friends first in her 20s.
And also this girl should refine her douche-o-meter. She should be able to spot a douche in the first 5 words. She seemed to reveal that she was disappointed when a guy turned out to be douchey. She should know before he even speaks. She probably is 30-something and single because she passed up perfectly good opportunities at LTRs/marriage in her 20s. She might have been “too picky” which essentially means she didn’t trust herself enough to make a more permanent decision. It’s doubtful she was unlucky. She’s female. She’s probably received way more interest than she can appropriately deal with. All she had to do was pick one.
I can completely understand the difficulty men might encounter to finding a suitable member of the opposite sex who exhibits the capacity for companionship. With the social scene of high school long behind me, I have since not had any close female friends. And I haven’t perceived much of a need. (Seriously, if I’m going to have to answer to anyone (and yes, females nag their female friends (hmm, maybe I’ve just never figured out how to pass the intra-gender female shit test?- or maybe I just don’t want to)-but yeah if I’m going to have answer to someone, shouldn’t it just be my spouse/partner?)
I vent to my mom to get all of the girly complaining out, and I’m done with it. If I had close female friends, I’d be forced to do it all the time. If I could find a tolerable, non-annoying, trustworthy female, then I’d consider it. I can even tolerate the annoyances, if the trustworthiness wasn’t so damn hard to find. Outside of aquaintances, my child’s friends’ parents, and carefully directed socializing (with some other purpose in mind), that’s the scope of my interactions.
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Gorb-
“Better: Don’t give flowers.
Ever.”
–oh Gorb, the dance has no absolutes. Those playing in the big leagues mix old school romance with “new-found” game tactics. Mix and match, customize.
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Off-topic cartoon:
Mangina Monthly magazine
http://www.lonenutcomics.com/2010/06/mangina-monthly.html
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@johnny five
You missed the point I was making. I do very well both in Europe and when I visit the USA once per year. No need to teach me game, although real tips for certain situations are always welcome – like the recent Beach Game tip Roissy relayed.
I would just instantly reject the woman in Roissy’s example if I asked if other Wake Forest alumni were in town and she suddenly acted like she forgot she told me where she went to school (paranoid schizophrenia).
I got up and walked away once when a woman wouldn’t tell me where she worked when we were in the building’s cafeteria in Boston. She was an inferior type of feminist…taught by peers not to give out such info even in friendly conversations with new men they like.
I moved to the table of a better looking woman.
The example of the guy at Chase Bank was a good indication of the type of worthless woman I was talking about – ruined 20 something shells inhabiting a few feminist-inspired cities and heading for the Wall. They become invisible after they hit the wall…except when they turn up as feminist bloggers.
They don’t really have the power or the time to be scared and paranoid all the time. Gaming them can be done by no need to bother…unless you are dealing with a 10.
Don’t try to stick up for the type of US feminists who often use the word “creepy” and “stalker” in their vocabularies. They are not ideal dating partners. There is nothing attractive about dating them, even though I can compete and succeed with the best of the PUAs in dating them if I were put on a dare and had time on some business trip back in the US.
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anouk:
oh Gorb, the dance has no absolutes
(emphasis mine)
if this catachresis was intentional, you’ve just earned 5 awesomeness points.
(if there’s one thing that is absolutely certain in relationships, it’s that nothing is certain in a relationship.)
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@johnny five
gorby: Treats: Give them out, … sometimes. A rate of 30-60% works best. I find 1/3 is the best ratio.
meh. you’re still operating on the assumption that the binary of “treat vs. not treat” is objective.
I’m only referencing buying things as “gifts” and her demands for gifts. Nothing else.
why don’t you just recalibrate her mindset, to re-brand everyday things as “treats”? then you don’t have to waste so much brainpower on percentages.
This makes every interaction a conscious training event. I’d rather come up for air on occasion and do my reinforcing when required, at flashpoints. Then I can genuinely interact during the rest of the time, assuming I’ve got good internal frame. Women love this. They get the real you, and then they get the smack of the Alpha attitude. The whole strength-weakness pattern.
I used these percentages as a guideline. You’re being deliberately obtuse here. Stop goading.
step 1: train her to work hard for such things as kisses, which will then become the “treats” in question.
or, if you’re feeling tired or listless, replace “kisses” with “acknowledgment”.
Dude, the kisses are for me, too. I don’t want her to be working for them. I want her to give them whenever she wants.
you have now advanced the subjective notion of “treat” from actual treats to relatively neutral things. also note that this step provides you with (limited) insurance against creeping beta tendencies; i.e., if you just can’t resist the temptation to pda her and tell her how much you wuv her, this training will ward off at least her initial revulsion at such behavior.
This could work, but it would make me into some sort of non-human Psychosocial Manipulo-Robot. We need to game women, not whip them like estrogen-filled sheep.
step 2: keep pushing the frame until things normally construed as punishment are now “treats”.
You just can’t resist it, ridiculing game. WTF.
If you managed this I can just imagine the harlots dancing behind you as you throw them crumbs and beat them occasionally. You could probably get them to do it to Disco, too.
step 3: occasionally give a traditional gift, an action that, if you’ve completed steps 1 and 2, will be weirdly nuclear in its potency.
Yeah, I’ll give it to you: If you had them in chains and begging to be slapped, giving them a cookie would probably make them love you. A ring would send them into instant orgasm.
most importantly, stop being so goddamn rational all the time.
hint: fucking (of both the mind- and pussy- variety) is a lot more fun if you’re being irrational and letting yourself be “swept away”.
Yeah, which is exactly why when it comes to buying presents you CONTROL yourself. When it comes to fucking her and sharing yourself, then you can go all out, within limits.
Swept away giving gifts: You get swept out with the garbage.
my god, i can’t imagine having to think as much as you people. this is what’s hilarious about newbie pua’s: they try to respond to irrationality by doubling down on … rationality.
learn to think like a woman better than a woman.
Thinking less works for you? Go for it, dude. About as good as the advice “Just Be Yourself”.
Double down on rationality because when you grasp the specific unreason of women, you can play it. That’s the whole fucking point of game.
When you come up for air, or hit signal and threshold points (“So are we dating, then? Why don’t we live together? I really like that necklace. John bought Jane an Ipod.”), the Rationality Thing saves your ass.
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you make an excellent point
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@johnny five
You were quite condescending to @Gorbachev above who is a popular writer here.
I agree with him that rationality can deal with irrationality quite well. It may be a matter of semantics but, of course, all game is rational. Putting your hand under a woman’s skirt and moving up while otherwise talking about astronomy is rational.
Getting a non-intellectual woman interested in looking at the night sky by stressing astronomy’s connection to astrology is rational.
But the worst type of woman is a “rational” paranoid feminist. The Wake Forest woman in Roissy’s scenario was “rationally” dissing men for remembering important information she’s divulged.
In the Wake Forest case, I’d immediately pick up on a paranoic not giving a proper answer to a good question about her fellow alumni and she and I would then be rationally talking about this Roissy post in short order (without identifying this blog specifically).
I assume you know Gorby’s background. He’s admitted to only being a PUA for a few years but the science only really got started in the 00s. Very few used the acronym PUA before 3 years ago.
What is your age, geographical hunting grounds and MLTR situation? How do you reject women to maintain a fresh MLTR? I have seen some good posts from you but you’ve been aloof on where you are coming from.
Everyone here is honest about their general situation and how well they do with women.
I assume you are not the Johnny 5 Something from Twitter who is a struggling 24 year old musician who hates the way older men in the music business sleep with the struggling young women his age…and whom he would like for himself.
That guy was too young to be condescending to anyone so it can’t be you.
I admit I don’t respond to many of Gorby’s posts because we think differently, but if he is getting sex with 8s as a self-identifying 6, I tip my hat to him as do others here.
He and I differ mainly because I chose the better geographical position and because I would classify myself as an 8 doing well financially. I now have a “just say no to 8s” policy because dating them takes time away from meeting and dating the 9s and 10s which abound in the European college town I live in.
My main squeeze, however, is an 8 who was a 10 last year but ate too much good food with me. She is under strict orders not to become a 7 and works hard at that so I’m happy.
But what also keeps me a happy camper is that I have reserved 4 nights off per week to date others in an MLTR.
I maintain that the best game comes when a man runs parallel relationships. When you’ve got great women dating you, your tolerance for women like the Wake Forest grad drops close to zero.
If you’ve got undergrads in your MLTR, you won’t have much patience for someone old enough to be a graduate who has a problem with men who remember from one day to another where she went to school.
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Here’s a self-flagellating mangina for you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/10332299.stm
Unreal. Can you see a Russian, Chinese or anyone outside the Anglosphere doing this? Anglo culture is doomed.
At least Western culture still has Silvio, God bless.
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Off Topic, but you guys have got to read this.
http://hollabackdc.wordpress.com/
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I normally don’t bother flaming, but I just can’t pass up jonny five. He launches into diatribe about how you should train a girl by withholding kisses and gifts–something that requires conscious effort–and then proceeds to admonish everyone for “thinking” too much.
You should start your own blog, jonny. I’m sure it would blow Roissy’s out of the water.
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“–oh Gorb, the dance has no absolutes. Those playing in the big leagues mix old school romance with “new-found” game tactics. Mix and match, customize.”
Guys new to game are better off sticking to “rules of thumb.” Remember, they have to actively work against their beta instincts.
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@ Snatch
Wow. Never before have I seen such a pit of venomous man hating vipers. The comments are even worse.
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@Jayz
“Mix and match, customize.”
Guys new to game are better off sticking to “rules of thumb.” Remember, they have to actively work against their beta instincts.
Beta instincts die hard. At the best moments, you can find yourself slipping. Only with true, real contempt and hatred for women – by being a certified asshole – can you avoid betatude altogether. I’m not that guy. Most PUAs I know aren’t. They actually like women – a lot.
I found rules of thumb, and carefully coming up for air and defying your own instincts by being rational, is generally good.
You can customize and mix and match, but one small thing affected me on occasion, and continues to do so:
It helps to create a consistent image and public character. Be someone who doesn’t brook much argument, stupidity, or flakiness.
The public character follows you. Girls talk to each other. You need to avoid things like being called a player if you want to do more than bag skanks and hos, if you want to maintain semi-serious STRs or LTRs of some type. Especially if a lot of people know you, and you move in social circles where a lot of people know who you spend time with.
Your rep gets around *fast*. If you’re a jerk to someone, it absolutely bites you in the ass in this kind of social world.
If you’re all Beta with one girl, and try to be Alpha with the next, and they ever talk, you’re boned. The second will pick up on the firsts’ attitude.
Uncomfortable situation once: I was at a function and there were three women there.
One: I had a year-long relationship with 11 years before;
Two: an intern who I’d had a brief fling with some time previously, Great God of martinis and office parties;
Third was a woman I’d just started seeing.
At one point they were all talking to each other for some time, with one or two other women; they occasionally looked in my direction, while I tried to assiduously avoid them. I have no idea what they said, but I do know one thing: Women talk. And they have no shame. I like to think they were chatting about the weather, but I suspect they weren’t.
Some time later the woman I was seeing said I had 1) good taste in women and 2) I was not a dick. My references were good and also consistent. She said she wasn’t the only one who thought I was a sentimental bastard.
You *never* know who’s going to talk about you.
Flowers and a romantic holiday for one girl? But not the next?
Live that down.
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“Beta instincts die hard. At the best moments, you can find yourself slipping. Only with true, real contempt and hatred for women – by being a certified asshole – can you avoid betatude altogether. I’m not that guy. Most PUAs I know aren’t. They actually like women – a lot.
I found rules of thumb, and carefully coming up for air and defying your own instincts by being rational, is generally good.”
I actually agree this.
But it is especially true to newbs to follow “rules of thumb” because they are so damn lost.
Whenever I hear someone tell a guy who is having trouble with women to “be yourself,” I feel like punching them in the face. Being themselves isn’t working for them, so this advice is either a put down or given out of sheer ignorance.
However, after you master the fundamentals, you can, to a certain extent, customize game.
A lot of PUAs actually give slightly conflicting advice. I used to wonder why that is.
Well, the reason in everyone is different.
A good looking guy getting into game can probably get away with just doing direct game + AO’s and get laid like gangbusters.
A funny and creative guy might take to doing elaborate routines on girls he meets and have great success with them.
Everybody is different.
That is why when ever I hear game advice, I always think: can I apply it to my situation?
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Women voted for Alvin Greene because they thought he was the alpha r&b singer Al Green.
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Whoops, that first sentence should read:
I actually agree with this.
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gorb:
Yeah, I’ll give it to you: If you had them in chains and begging to be slapped, giving them a cookie would probably make them love you.
yes. this is pretty much it, actually.
i’m not ridiculing game at all, sir, not by half. in fact, the next time your STR becomes a LTR, you will begin to discover that your sarcasm here isn’t as sarcastic as you’d thought when you wrote it.
to wit, if your woman is desirable enough and you DON’T “have her in chains begging to be slapped”, preferably literally but at a minimum metaphorically, her heart will slowly migrate to a man who does.
unless, as i’ve remarked previously, she is strangely inexperienced with men.
—
cauthon:
He launches into diatribe about how you should train a girl by withholding kisses and gifts–something that requires conscious effort–and then proceeds to admonish everyone for “thinking” too much
cauth’, the point is to get from point A to point B.
at point A these things require conscious effort; resultantly, maintaining “higher value” becomes a chore.
point B is where these things become a natural mindset — presumably what anyone might mean by “natural alpha”. this state can be achieved through a modicum of experience; it’s actually inevitable if you are a cold observer of women’s actual behavior and you lack this weird pedestal instinct.
tell ya what — i’ll raise you double; let’s see if roissy disagrees with one single word of what i wrote.
roissy! come ‘ere for a sec bro.
—
jerry:
i repeat, how are things on the spectrum these days?
it doesn’t surprise me that you would mistake a little friendly e-slap on the back for “condescension”.
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Why the fuck should I care what a woman wants?
Oh right, I´m supposed to be grateful and happy to have one in my life, manipulating me constantly just for the privilege to pump her a bit once in a while.
If you´re THAT desperate to get the noodle wet then find a good escort/hooker, pay for it, and invest your energies in more useful and rewarding undertakings than worrying about the whims of the weaker sex.
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Only with true, real contempt and hatred for women – by being a certified asshole – can you avoid betatude altogether.
absolutely wrong, sir.
if you like to train dogs, and keep them in line because you have seen, and understand, exactly what feral behavior will ensue if reinforcement is lax, does this mean you hate dogs?
it wasn’t without perspicacity that the label “bitch” was chosen above all others to stand for a woman.
with bitterness by once-bitten-twice-bitten betas, but with love by capable trainers.
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Oh right, I´m supposed to be grateful and happy to have one in my life, manipulating me constantly just for the privilege to pump her a bit once in a while.
heh.
dude, even when she’s a marionette and you are pulling the strings, she is still exerting the same force right back. in fact, newton’s third law guarantees this.
this analogy is more literal than you think; there’s a reason why sexual tension is called “tension”.
the question isn’t whether manipulation should occur; of course it will! all human relationships are crystallized manipulation. yes, all of them. ALL of them. manipulation and love are not mutually exclusive; think of the way in which you’d lovingly manipulate (physically) a dance partner, and translate that way of thinking to the dance of the emotions.
stop seeing yourself as the marionette, and start seeing yourself as the puppeteer.
this is what women want anyway. who is more loved, a pimp or a john?
to ask the question is to answer it.
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lzozlzlzozlzlzlzozlzlz
generally the only thing i remember about a women is she size and shape of her pussy and what it tatses smell like lzozlzlzlzl
until you see her pussy you are better off not remmebering anything at all as it will close down her gina and put you in the friends bucket lzozlzlzl
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@almost 40 year old virgin
Why the fuck should I care what a woman wants?
If you´re THAT desperate to get the noodle wet then find a good escort/hooker, pay for it, and invest your energies in more useful and rewarding undertakings than worrying about the whims of the weaker sex.
You sound like you’ve sorted out your romantic and sexual needs. Good on ‘ya, mate.
Some of actually, uh, like girls, eh?
They’re not as icky as you think if you wear the right gloves.
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J,
Others have already given good responses, but I knew you would feel terribly deprived if I didn’t share my thoughts as well.
And because her “market value” is diminishing, she better hurry up and settle. Isn’t that the thesis of this blog? She’s attempting to write about that from a female point of view, in a humorous vein.
Actually no. From the article she writes, she evidently was hatched fully grown at age 30. So she missed that opportunity human women get to form a commitment in their 20s. Otherwise having read this blog I would speculate that she chased alphas/rode the carousel for a decade or so and now is looking for something more serious. GBFM has a great line about this.
Her situation reminds me of the college age guy who wrote the blog complaining about how he goes to the bars, and none of the hot women are running over to blow him on the spot! I know! Bizarre, huh? Evidently these princesses all want to be gamed/seduced first, maybe even a LTR. He asks the very compelling question of what is wrong with women today. They clearly are self obsessed and somehow psychologically damaged. We need to shame all hot women so that this poor college kid can get the bargain he has deemed is only fair for himself. I’ll post later with the URL for his blog.
As you have already guessed, the blog from the college guy doesn’t exist. And if it did, everyone would laugh at him (rightly so). Likewise, newly 30 in NYC chick is welcome to try to shame all men into fitting the bargain she has deemed fair, and we are free to laugh at her and invest in cat related stocks.
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Where is Jerry located?
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It helps to create a consistent image and public character. Be someone who doesn’t brook much argument, stupidity, or flakiness.
You don’t have to “create” such an image if your own self is acceptable, then it’s just a question of maintaining personal integrity.
It was a huge qualifier for me that I was on good terms with my two serious ex-GFs and they both still valued my friendship. My wife says that was the biggest reason she took the plunge with me, guys who had bad breakups scared the shit out of her because she came from a broken family. (It also helped that the ex-GFs were, themselves, emotional roller-coasters whom other men had treated badly, so they were implicitly recommending me as superior in comparison to other men as well.)
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“Actually no. From the article she writes, she evidently was hatched fully grown at age 30. So she missed that opportunity human women get to form a commitment in their 20s. Otherwise having read this blog I would speculate that she chased alphas/rode the carousel for a decade or so and now is looking for something more serious. GBFM has a great line about this.”
lozzzozlzlzlzlozlzlz
i luvs how womenz think they can hit 29 and go
“ok lalalalal i had my fun lalalal you had your fun alalalal now buy me things and pay me for my pussy which stinkcs from rotting giz lalalalalal and my 17 ass cocking sessions did not count as sex so don’t be a prude and buy me a $10,000 ring lalalalalla and while i didn’t give you the time of day while i was taking biker drummer cock deep in my orfices going oh lalalal oh lalala oh lalala oh lalallalalaal now i see your value and i respect your hard work and dependability and love for work lalallalala and your great value is that after we get married i can get the neocon bernanke legal team to get you to pay me for past use of my pussy while you fund me banging the bikers drummers that i missed doing during most nights of our honeymoon but for that one thank god where i gbanged the lead singer of band in the men;’s room while you whizzed at the urinal thinking to yourself, “wowzers who wupold be having sex in a stinky stall?” lozlzlz! your aemrican wife!
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@ GBFM
Heh.
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johnny five —
all good posts. totally agree.
you’re becoming one of the consistently insightful posters here. please keep it up.
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“editor: if the chick is really into you, then you can get away with pretty much anything. no need to bother with game. but for most men, they will have to abide some basic rules of courtship and human psychology.]”
So when they flake, act nutty and flighty dont take it personal because you were not alpha enough. Live and learn game.
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my advice to womenz: if you want 2 be taken seriously as a wife mother grandmother keep the cockas outtta da mouth/anus/gina region even thoug the neocns commeand and promote taht you do differenlty lzolzlzlzlzl!!
omg lzozlz
if you don’t mind slaving away for stipd cuble bsuy busy jobs and giving mba douchebag blowjobs on conferences teh ret of your life as your face wriknles and withers and your eggs dry up and your pussy gets so much dust on it that we need leaf blowers before even going down there twith two gallon jars of vasleine, than handle and take in lotsa cocka early and oftenoftenoften lzozlzlzlz
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/06/09/DI2010060905873.html
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Women, listen greatbooksformen: “my advice to womenz: if you want 2 be taken seriously as a wife mother grandmother keep the cockas outtta da mouth/anus/gina region.”
No one likes a ‘ho who’s been cock-stuffed by more cable than on a suspension bridge… they die old, alone and with a lot of cats (usually of loneliness at about 58).
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You wish.
Fact is the vast majority of men settle for what they can get, because they feel they have no choice.
Fact is pussy is still a sellers market.
Fact is the reason the ho’s don’t marry is because they don’t have to.
Women aren’t nearly afraid enough of being single and 50 to over-ride their hypergamy. Not even close. And men aren’t nearly as worried about past sexual partners to avoid being in an LTR or even marriage solely for that reason.
Women dupe men so easily. Any guy who has fucked less than several dozen girls will still be easy pickins for most girls. Guys are so incredibly easy to manipulate.
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lozzllzlz
i love when i post the trhead kinda stops always outta respect for the GBFM lzozlzlzlzl
i’m kinda the period to roissy’s sentence lzozlzlzlz
yah it’s a small roll but i am proud to serve in da roissy empire lzozlzlzl
there’re a lot of fiatbutthexedbetas out there and sometimes they turn on teh wrong enemy roissy who is relly tehir best firned because he speaks da truth but so it is in history theat eople like shooting the messengers lzozlzlzl
but roissy can take y’alls on without me whatsoever like he did for tyears
i just show up towwrds the end of the night so taht the inevitabel can take place and he can take home teh hottest hotties without all teh butthexbetaboys and chicks with dicks going “wahahhahahaha whahahahah whhahahaha but cuckholdery is good!!”
lzozlzlz
the betabutthexboyz say cuckhledery is good lzozozl alongside bernanke and neocns lzozlzll
i and roissy say cockholdery is good as long as she’s hot and she’s holding my cock lzozlzlzllzlzlzlzl
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And how the hell are you going to know, anyway? All it takes for most men is two months of no sex and a cute girl – ANY girl, telling you pretty lies, and she’ll own you.
That applies to a minimum of 80% of men, and women know it.
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And by the way, your name is sloventarded.
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Yes, women think men are stupid. That WE can’t tell the difference between inscrutable and irresponsible.
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And? And the point of this story is what? Surprising how?
A powerful man had sex outside of marriage.
Only girls care about this stuff, because it allows them to gossip about it for a while, in an attempt to keep men on the whole beta. They ALWAYS forgive the alphas for any such behavior. They still MUST make a loud obnoxious and noxious point every time anything like this gets public though.
Who fucking cares?! Men fuck!
Cluck cluck cluck.
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xplat said:
“They ALWAYS forgive the alphas for any such behavior.”
you are very wrong on that point.
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Name any celebrity caught with his pants down who didn’t rise back up to equal or greater celebrity status?
Think Tiger or Clinton will have a hard time in their future careers or or with women?
It’s not the crime women hate hate hate. It’s if you let it stick. The crime is accepting the frame that it’s a crime, first off. Failing that test, it’s fighting against the charges on women’s terms. Failing that test it’s game over. Beta man broken.
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Tiger should have just lied and said his wife couldn’t fuck. That’s all he should have said.
Women would have just nodded.
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^not true xsplat. women would have said he’s cold. why won’t he stick by his wife while she works through her medical or mental condition.
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David Rockefeller to
johnny five –
all good posts. totally agree.
you’re becoming one of the consistently insightful posters here. please keep it up.
but don’t leave your girl around him. He’s a true player and a world class freak.
hey, greatbooksformen’s older brother
aimlowjoe
http://aimlow.com/
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Jerry Everyone here is honest about their general situation and how well they do with women
No sir, sometimes we get an e-alpha who has 10’s lined up around the block.
Jules Verne wrote
Where is Jerry located?
In his mom’s basement, right next to the washing machine 🙂
Just kidding jerry.
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@Name
“If a women doesn’t nab a guy when she’s young, all the good guys will be gone.” “So, why didn’t she? ”
Who knows really? We can’t really tell from the article; we can just theorize.
“Honestly, a female relative encouraging a 20yo female to marry would probably prompt a call to child protective services, since adulthood no longer begins at age 18.”
I agree that the extention of American adolescence into the thirties is a real social problem.
“And god forid, if you date “too long” and are content with cohabitating.”
I disagree that cohabitation is a good option for women.
“The author is still single in her 30s probably because she put her female friends first in her 20s.”
Maybe, but the NYC bar/party scene doesn’t strike me as the ideal place to met someone. Most people meet their spouses through friends, family and other socail institutions.
“And also this girl should refine her douche-o-meter.” Wise advice for us all.
“She probably is 30-something and single because she passed up perfectly good opportunities at LTRs/marriage in her 20s.”
Possily, or maybe pickings are slim for her. We don’t know enough about her to tell.
I’m not sure what to say about your female friend situation. There are a lot of women who don’t really interest me, but when I find woman who do, I add them to my circle of friends. I’ve built a nice group of like-minded women over the years, but it took time.
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oh, if you mean women in general, i agree. thought you meant the wife.
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john bobbit’s penis is proof a man can push a woman too far.
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nope.
john bobbitt is proof that a man can push a woman too far beyond her current threshold, but not at all proof that he can push her too far, full stop.
slow and steady wins the race. and that is the crux of what a
woman wants: a slow but steady pushing, and resultant gradual expansion, of her envelope.
men like you would be depressed, rather than intrigued, by just how far women’s envelopes will stretch. best stay away, friend.
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you might be right but there is a lot of speculation in what you say. you can only speak for the women you’ve had. i doubt all girls are attracted to you.
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@ Jayz…
“”Guys new to game are better off sticking to “rules of thumb.” Remember, they have to actively work against their beta instincts.””
Totally agree.
As much as game has helped me avoid beta-tude, I do find myself doubting myself when a particular tactic doesn’t produce instant results.
For newbies starting to understand “game”, the point isn’t to balk when a woman doesn’t react a certain way, but rather understand that my own reaction is more important.
The hardest thing about game is “listening” to what is being said by the “target”.
Also, the hardest thing is getting away from being “outcome dependent”.
I just had a married woman I’d been banging write me on IM to say “I can’t see you anymore, we shouldn’t do this.”
Before this blog, my reaction would have been: “Why not?”
This time, my reaction was: “Hey, good luck, I don’t care, there’s no reason for us to be in touch.”
This is a composite of advice from this blog. What a difference…
Her reaction was instantaneous: “What do you mean?”
My reaction: nothing…silence…log off…
While beta-tude is being “outcome dependent”, Game is about thinking two or three moves ahead. Game is about being more self-protective.
The only time I can think of that having that mundane conversation with a woman in Roissy’s original post would be effective, would be with a woman you’d previously been involved with, had gamed and who’d flaked.
Consciously asking questions like that would be a way of demonstrating complete indifference after previously establishing alpha cred.
I’d tried this before with a woman I’d gamed and who’d demurred. I made “polite” conversation.
Her reaction was to try harder to get me back to gaming her with flirty talk…
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“men like you would be depressed, rather than intrigued, by just how far women’s envelopes will stretch. best stay away, friend.”
i’m not shocked by much.
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A little OT, but very illuminating:
Thor
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Hi Dalrock,
“Others have already given good responses, but I knew you would feel terribly deprived if I didn’t share my thoughts as well.”
A neg! You like me, you really like me!
“From the article she writes, she evidently was hatched fully grown at age 30”
LOL
“So she missed that opportunity human women get to form a commitment in their 20s. Otherwise having read this blog I would speculate that she chased alphas/rode the carousel for a decade or so and now is looking for something more serious.”
Maybe, but we don’t know. Perhaps she fat, or ugly, or was dumped by a LTR whom she expected to marry. Maybe she had a bad childhood and fears commitment. Maybe she didn’t make marriage a priority, assuming it would just happen and it didn’t. Our culture sells us this bill of goods where we all “fall in love.” It’s a chance occurence like getting the flu. Maybe she’s been waiting for that to happen. I don’t know what her issue is, but I know plenty of single women who are not carousel riders.
“GBFM has a great line about this.”
Younger, hotter, tighter??
“Her situation reminds me of the college age guy who wrote the blog complaining about how he goes to the bars, and none of the hot women are running over to blow him on the spot! I know! Bizarre, huh?’
Someone should introduce them.
“He asks the very compelling question of what is wrong with women today. ..As you have already guessed, the blog from the college guy doesn’t exist. ”
OK, I’ll tell you a story. I have a gamma/omega orbiter. He has been divorced for years, has no kids, and lives in the same apartment building as his mom whom he “takes care of.” He has a mild harelip repair scar. He’s two or three years my junior and adores me. He always tells me how pretty, smart, funny and “healthy” I am. (It’s a boob-related euphemism.) If my husband dropped dead tomorrow, I’d have someone to mow the lawn, change my oil, etc. if I were the type to take advantage.
He constantly cries to me about how he is lonely, missed his chance at a family, etc. Now despite the negative characteristics, I genuinely like him. I think he’s a nice guy who’s had a number of bad breaks. I begin to look for a woman for him–which is no mean feat considering the mother situation. I had a potential match–fiteen years his junior, bright, personable, wants mariage and a family, would overlook the harelip and mother. There was one hang-up; she’s fat. I knew better than introduce them without first bringing up that issue. You already know how he responded; I don’t have to tell you. I did not berate him for his shallowness or question his response. I’ll accept that the “penis does the picking.” But, he is the older version of your hypothetical blog writer. I offered him the obtainable; he rejected it.
“we are free to laugh at her and invest in cat related stocks.”
It’s a good thing I have a husband. I hate cats.
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@xplat (about Gore vs. Gore)
“Only girls care about this stuff, because it allows them to gossip about it for a while, in an attempt to keep men on the whole beta. They ALWAYS forgive the alphas for any such behavior. They still MUST make a loud obnoxious and noxious point every time anything like this gets public though.”
Hah. Think if you were Tipper. Married to guy who is
not only cheating (although that makes for great
melodrama) but who is totally narcissistic, grossly
obese, and whose public persona is slowly but surely
crumbling into the dust as people get wise to
Mann-made Global Warming.
No, dump the hump, grab half of the 100$ and run –
and then you can do whatever you want. That seems
like the ONLY rational plan if you are in her place.
Thor
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you can only speak for the women you’ve had. i doubt all girls are attracted to you.
this is of course literally true.
however, when a certain parameter is invariant between inveterate madonnas and inveterate whores, it’s safe to interpolate.
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@nupinnup
“5 dollar words work as a brilliant filter. Whether use the right criteria to do so is a whole other discussion. Basically, if you want to screen for wife material, then by all means, use it. If you just want to get your brains fucked out ASAP, well then probably you should not use them :)”
That actually makes sense to me, but I’m told that IQ is low on the male hit parade in selecting a wife. 😉
I used to do this BTW to filter out men.
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I meant that she couldn’t fuck well. That she was a lousy lay. Unsatisfying.
Cold or not, women would have did what many did with Mrs. Clinton, and assume she didn’t give enough BJs to properly keep her man.
Women will put a woman down instead of the man. They will sacrifice one of their own. They love to do that.
All he had to do was to feed her to the wolves. I mean to the bitches.
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Anonymous’s link at 5:10 pm which I repeat here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/06/09/DI2010060905873.html
is nightmarishly horrifying.
This is the intro to the interview:
Getting a ring is the last thing you should be thinking about in your 20s. Authors Shannon Fox and Celeste Liversidge discuss just how young is “too young” for marriage and their book “Last One Down the Aisle Wins.”
I could spend an hour deconstructing it but it’s too depressing. Mr. Chateau ought to have a crack at it, it’s got lots of his targets in one convenient place.
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Thor
And I care, why?
WTFC? Who the fuck cares? If I were in a position of Gore, no chance in hell would I stay with a woman my own age. Certainly not without getting plenty on the side. That my wife would leave me?
WTFC?
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Why on earth MEN care who politicians fuck is beyond me.
Cluck cluck cluck.
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Tiger if he had more than golf balls: “I know I was weak. I’ve spent the last x years so frustrated. I’ve pleaded with my wife to get some counseling, to try libido enhancers, to try new things to spice up our sex life. But not only was the sex infrequent, but it was very unsatisfying. I know I didn’t find the best solution. I should have simply divorced. Instead I tried to stick it out, and get my needs met in other ways. It seems that was an error”.
In other words “Fuck you, and your golf clubs too”.
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Polymath
Well, at least you aren’t running into the common female emotional solution to an unpalatable situation – denying the fabric of time and space and declaring social reality.
My take is that the serenity prayer is the last say in all things, and is the perfect judge of correct emotional adjustment.
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@J
A neg! You like me, you really like me!
Actually I was being self deprecating, but always happy to brighten your day with a few tingles!
Younger, hotter, tighter??
A winner! But you forgot for free.
“…having read this blog I would speculate that she chased alphas/rode the carousel for a decade or so and now is looking for something more serious.”
Maybe, but we don’t know.
Two tip offs which I think seal the deal:
1) She likes the players/PUAs. Re read the article and you will see that her core complaint is that the players won’t commit. She describes PUAs with exactly the same list of positive adjectives as the “taken” guys, except the ones with girlfriends are “emotionally stable” and the PUAs are emotionally un-stable and “confused”. Note that these are the guys she wants to fix.
2) Everything was going great for her until just recently when something mysteriously changed (her profile says she is 30). She projects it onto the guys, but as readers of this blog we understand what really happened:
There’s some kind of bell curve, where guys get more mature and then they peak, and if they’re not in a stable relationship at that point, then they dip back down to the emotional maturity of 15-year-olds.
The story of your Gamma/Omega orbiter fits well. He is anything but a catch, but wants to be picky. The difference is 1) He never had his day in the sun like 30 in NYC, and 2) No one would read his blog and feel his pain.
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People that remember every minor detail from every conversation are the worse!
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serenity now
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lozlzlzlzlzl!!
after a chcik leaves and ithink back about what she siad, this is all i remember:
http://greatbooksformen.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/lozzloozozzl-this-is-what-i-see-when-i-listen-to-chix-these-days-lzozllzlzlzl/
lzozllz
so like when i see a chick i say
“Hey!! how are you doin’? are you still working in lzozlzozlozozl for fiat butthex dollars lzozlzlozlzlzolzlz? let’s hand out soemtime and get dinner at lzozlozlzozll and then you can go lzolzoz9lzoozlzlzl on my cocka lotsa cocka for you zlozlzozlzlzlozllz”
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Maybe this is off topic; but maybe not.
I do not work in the Oil Industry but I did grow up in the midst of it, in my family in Texas. I knew what a blow-out preventer was while in primary school and absorbed some of the basics of drilling rig operations. And I like to think that, on a good day, I can read between some lines. And there is talk I hear from well connected sources.
Folks, the Singularity might be upon us. Very likely, this this blown well will never be plugged and will flow ever faster and will kill utterly the major biological systems of the Gulf of Mexico and the North Atlantic Ocean. Pause … The biology of the Gulf Stream and all associated coasts will be massively poisoned and will continue to be poisoned for decades to come. Another pause.
That would be a good beginning… a solid first step towards the great unravelling. Soon, we might be talking about “bunker game” or How to game a girl who is carrying a gun and has not eaten in days?
If you have been worrying a lot about becoming bored with life, you can probably relax.
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hey guys this is pretty funny
i have published 4 books.
and i swear to fucking god that i have had writer’s block or not really but was writing a lot and thoring it our until i started lozlzozlzzoozlzling here and now my next book is flying along.
lzozlzllz.
so thanks to roissy and all y’all crazy fuckers–evern teh beatafanboybutthexers and chix with dix–like buddah i have reached a new leverl of nirvannananannananan lzozllzozlozlozzllzolzllozlzlzlzlzlobutthexlozlzlzlzlz
and i am working on my collection of great books for men essays zlozlzozlzlzlzlzzl omg lzozlzlzlzozllzlzozlzozlozl
lzozlzozlzlzlzlzlzl
zlozlzlzzl
i am pw3deing the ny publsihing fuckers lzozlzl
hey roissy you are way better than all the pua amateur hours tuffs and your book wil have legs of endurance so i hope 2 see it soon on the tables of barnes and nobles and on the shleves of the chcix i jiz on lzozlllzlzlzl.
like two nights ago i am fucking this chcik on the edge of the couch and i look up and there’s a shelf of her books.
there ‘s the celestine prhpnecy and the power of now.
some wayne dyer who is getting sued for palgairaism way of tao
a bunch of john grisham
so i’m gong in going out trying to concentrate but nothing killes a ock faster than a copy of the secret and like it’s dvd and handbook and a whole fucking shelf devoted to teh secerret zlzolzlzozlzl
and then her little chiwawaaa little dog stars licking at my ass as i am going in and out in and out trying to cum.
so the secrte in fornt of me and htehr chiswarwa little dog behind me licking my ahole or something holy shit but i have nerve of ateel and keep my hardon hard by sheer will power not by looking at her pretty face which it was but no just sheer will poer
so i have to cum now or lose my hardon forever and so i pull out angd slopplloeleleleoeoeoeoeeoogegegegegegeg all over her couch splooge splooge more on da couch just before i was gonna lose my ahrdon becaiuse i lakced teh postive thinking of teh secret zlozlzlzll
and i pull it off as i go gzizizgzizzgzgggzg and in my head i pictured coming on the faces of all teh hot chicx in a secret reaidng club fro that book teh secret udruing whci i woudl lean over and say, “psssst i have a secret–the secret is bullshit. zlozlzlzllz”
so tehn we’re lyng on the floor and i hear her little doggie eating linking something.
and i look up and the little doggy is eating my gizaliz gizaliz.
the little doggie was shwoing me the power of positive thinking.
the little doggie ahad been licking my ass because of theat field of dreams movie–if you lick ass they will cum. zlozlzlzlzllzlzllzl
and so she goes, “what is roger eating?”
“r u serious?” i wanna ask her. didn’t she just see me blow a load on her couch?
but maybe she thought i didn’t becaise she willed the load 2 fly out the window via postive thinking zlozlzolzllzlzozlzlzozlzlz
anyways if any of u guys can cum while looking at a new age bookshelf while a new age little doggie ate your ass out then maybe you don’t need the secret even .zozlzlolzlz
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@Dalrock
“Actually I was being self deprecating,”
Some here might find that beta, but I personally find it refreshing.
“but always happy to brighten your day”
Why, thank you!
“with a few tingles!”
Hhhmmm….
Younger, hotter, tighter?? “A winner! But you forgot for free.”
Yeah, I did.
” She likes the players/PUAs. . . Note that these are the guys she wants to fix. ”
I want to you to know I re-read that overwrought POS post twice on your account. It was harder to read each time. What I get out of it is that there are three kinds of guys: cool guys who’ll commit, cool guys who won’t commit and douches. Willingness to commit is the only difference between the first two types which are both attractive. All the committers are already committed. If she could get one of the uncommitted to commit ((by “fixing him”), she’d be happy–but no douches please. You read that mean she really likes players. I’m reading while thinking, “What the hell is she talking about with these stupid, overblown descriptions? What a shitty writer and murky thinker!” I can understand though how you could read it the way you do. It’s logical.
“Everything was going great for her until just recently when something mysteriously changed”
I’m missed that, but I guess there must have been a previous era in her life when things were different.
“There’s some kind of bell curve, where guys get more mature and then they peak, and if they’re not in a stable relationship at that point, then they dip back down to the emotional maturity of 15-year-olds.”
I read this as a combination of sour grapes and misrecognition of a real phenomenon. It’s not that the guys regress without a woman. It’s just that often it’s the less mature/socially skilled men who are left over when everyone else had paired up.
“The story of your Gamma/Omega orbiter fits well. He is anything but a catch, but wants to be picky.”
So riddle me this? What’s up with this behavior? Why moon over me? I’m not leaving my husband. This girl may well have been his last chance at the life he claims to have wanted. Her weight, at least in my female mind, was something he should have traded off against his age, lack of game and mother. I won’t even put the harelip into the mix. Why did he reject even the suggestion of an introduction?
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“Everything which the Establishment and Church desire finally brings about its own ruin and, with it, the establishment of Higher Order(s) of dis-organization — which is the goal of the Master.
An example will serve to illustrate.
The Church’s desire to see the end of abortion brings about an inevitable over-population which, in turn, causes the Toxick Chaos necessary to bring about the destruction of the Church and, to a large extent, the environment as we know it. So, send food to Africa!
The Practitioner sees all appeals to ecology as futile attempts to maintain stasis. Hence, the preoccupation with ecology leads to a level of destruction far greater than would be otherwise.
For example, consider the cascading effects of water-saving toilets. In order not to clog them, we are now so dis-commoded that we have to shit in segments. People are not able to get rid of their feces as quickly as they used to and this is not safe!!
Consequently, to safeguard their health, people are now buying black-market toilets and installing them illegally under cover of darkness.
The effect of ecology in this case is to create a new criminal underclass and to reduce the population through the spread of disease. To cover up the real cause, the blame for the increased mortality rate has been placed on salmonella-infected chickens and tainted red meat, thus eliminating Steak Tartar and Ramos Fizzes from the menus of finer restaurants.
It is worth noting that, if the issue were really the conservation of water, the entire problem could be solved more effectively with a two-button toilet with, of course, the appropriate international icons of yellow drops for number 1 and a brown coil with rising steam for number 2.
The Master may choose to help an ecological cause (e.g., the current preoccupation with “flesh eating bacteria”) since the stasis brought about by its success will sooner or later lead to a greater displacement and, hence, more Toxicity, Remember, every solution leads to more complex and involuted “problems.” The Practitioner loves problem-solvers. Better antibiotics make better bacteria!
As long as any force and motion is applied, counterforces of the most bizzare and unpredictable types begin to formulate and affect the entire field of play.
The Practitioner knows that we live in gigantic sets of inter-woven neucoid-correlation matrices where one tiny push in the right place can cause an entire field to collapse. This might be likened to Kung Fu Magick.
The Practitioner knows there is no way not to create what the Hindu’s have called Karma. Karma is good!
He knows this fact very well, and he is also aware that most people live in a superstitious world of “causes and effects.”
The Practitioner knows, for example, that, if the pro-abortionists win by controlling population, it is the wrong population that will be controlled.
This is one of the key principles of Toxick Magick: whether, for example, the Church gets its way or not in terms of abortion is quite irrelevant. It is the quality and nature of the forces set in motion for which the Practitioner strives.
He knows that whatever is the most gross will triumph in the end. Whatever levels the playing field triumphs for a while.
He knows that the faster technology develops, the greater will be the collisions and destruction within the species which developed the technology. Inertia must always be viewed from the psychological perspective of indolence. Indolence, in one form or another, leads to farce.
Regardless of social strictures, laws or anything else, the masses will continue to breed. The goal is 66.6% illiteracy in the Civilized World and not the reverse. The goal of literacy is simply a ruse, a ploy of the Practitioner to set into motion those forces which interfere with the natural give and take of intelligence and stupidity, and power and impotency.
Thus, every so-called worthy goal is a ruse and the fuse of destruction. In the end, all goals reduce to control, and the means used to gain control are irrelevant and quickly forgotten.
What difference does it make to the average individual or organization that 10 or 20 millions lives are destroyed after a week or two? It is only important that there is a fresh chicken in the pot. This is called “Voodo Mechanics.”
By the perfect application of the mind of a Master, individuals will develop the natural character traits to lead the world into a deep and abysmal darkness until the necessary form of transformed destructiveness occurs, thereby freeing new and more interesting forms to evolve and develop.
For example, as we wind down to ultimate world peace, expect the greatest possibility for a nuclear holocaust.
Note that when speaking of evolution, we use the word “forms” and not “form.” The idea of plurality is important in many ways but, for the moment, its importance lies in the fact that multiple users of Toxicity can create competing ends for the yet unborn futures which will create events which will be regarded as beautiful and grotesque.” — C.S.H., 1994
(Hi Cannon)
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Rum,
If it as bad as you say, they should just seal it up now with a nuclear explosion. Cheaper than every other method even if it weren’t going to be that bad.
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How would an explosion plug a well? Isn’t that like sewing fabric with scissors?
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Melted and resolidified rock would create a plug. May or may not be feasible; currently being studied.
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“I found rules of thumb, and carefully coming up for air and defying your own instincts by being rational, is generally good.”
This is better than acting on instinct as jf suggests…but I have to admit that acting on GOOD INSTINCTS, recognizing them in yourself, nurturing them is even better than being rational.
A simple exercise for the more introspective:
– Write down which of your instincts align with solid game principles.
– Do any conflicting feelings (guilt, unease, etc.) come into play when you act on them?
– What is the source of the conflict? Is it socialization?
-Who’s the source of the conflict? Is it a parental figure, e.g. your mom? your dad? Grandparents that raised you? etc.
– “I’m right, they’re wrong”. Objectively evaluate whether this conditioning is adaptive in light of the environment you find yourself in. If not, make the appropriate observation that your conditioning is obsolete.
Obviously, given the role of biomechanics there is only so much behavior that one can modify. But even a little can mean a lot in terms of reward.
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@J
Regarding your Omega/Sigma-orbiter you wanted to fix up with the fat chick but he balked:
“” I won’t even put the harelip into the mix. Why did he reject even the suggestion of an introduction?””
Why would a beta orbiter balk at this?
Lack of self-confidence. It’s easier to live a fantasy than to actually be real with a woman who might actually be on your level.
I would guess that an alpha might give it a shot at an introduction even if it was just to practice game or see if fatty had any possible hot friends he could use her as a pivot for after he banged her.
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@Jules
I live in a college town in Eastern Europe.
I do business remotely – not a problem in 2010.
This is Roissy’s favorite part of the world.
The ratio of single women to alphas would probably be around 40 to 1 here. Even ugly men get spoiled and find themselves rejecting or just being friends with 7s.
I’d recommend, short term, that any aspiring PUA move immediately to a college town.
But here there is no feminism to slow you down and turn you off: no concept of stalkers and date rapists and cock-blockers don’t whisper to their friends “He’s too old. He must be over 30”. I can handle all this in an American college town and still do well…but why bother when the grass is greener here.
Did I mention there are no “women’s studies” courses in the universities here?
Here people let adult males babysit their kids or watch them while they go to the bathroom…women leave their drink unattended with you. It is non-paranoiac here.
You can bet the environment makes at least a 2 point difference in what a man can get in a woman.
In fact I’d consider it almost a *negative* that they don’t want to waste their 20s riding a carousel here. They aren’t desperate to move to the USA the way US feminist propaganda states as a way of belittling them, but they do compete with each other to nail down good husbands.
I have to play Beta Provider much of the time to win here but, as in the sport of jujitsu, I’ve gotten really good at withdrawing the Beta Provider schtick and pushing direct game on the 3rd date. Momentum – the woman not wanting to be rejected on the 3rd date – carries forward.
Skills and inner game acquired here apply well to the US college scene. But, again, I am not sure I ever want to deal with feminism again when I don’t have to.
And for those whose “rationalization hamsters” try to justifying remaining in a harsh environment, remember that as a man who flies to Italy to buy a Ferrari cannot be accused of having poor driving skills, a man who flies to Moscow or Riga to date a 10 cannot be accused of poor social skills. A pro athlete wants the best playing surface.
@Chic – All kidding aside, there is a lot of pressure on this blog for men to stress mediocrity in dating only 7s and 8s, which is where the fakes would go to try to fit in. I’ve had to leave some field stories out because I was wary that the many US East Coasters and Londoners, living in sexual poverty and agonizing over “game”, would not believe or not want to believe someone doing better in a better environment.
But, to get the most out of this blog, I’ve had to nudge the conversation in certain directions and use key stories (like the 10 standing me up 4 dates in a row as a way of telling me I should switch to direct game and forget about romance game). Every regular has influenced both Roissy and the conversation in some way and this then has an effect on general PUA discussion across the Internet, which then slightly effects how politicians and journalists look at the world. Look at Charlotte Allen for instance. She is into GOP politics and she is practically a fan of Roissy. That is huge.
I am well aware the US Democrat Party wants to fund foreign feminist organizations and get “women studies” courses into foreign universities. The International Violence Against Women Act aims to do this and the GOP has to stop it.
Roissy gets 3000 readers per day. I sometimes see my concepts or points repackaged and used in other’s comments….which justifies my commenting here, even if I have to stick my neck out and admit that I dated someone younger and/or better looking last night than a man normally gets to date in New York City and London.
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Off topic but hilarious. “President Obama’s 19.8 words per sentence added some difficulty for his target audience.”
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/16/obama.speech.analysis/index.html?hpt=C1
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I can’t believe game! A beautiful woman on television who meets celebrities all the time is interested in me. What the fuck!?
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Keep those great OT links coming.
I’ve been reposting those on social media.
The British MP who resigned because he had said a woman was “good looking” -> priceless
The Washington Post declaring today that women should wait until their 30s to marry -> priceless
The blog where women complain about men trying to meet them on the street -> priceless
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The phrase “on the spectrum” refers to being “autistic”.
The New York Times wrote an article about this where they said that “autistic” male college students “don’t know when a woman is not interested” and thus “pursue relationships until confrontation”.
They then lauded a special program where “mentors” taught the bad guys how to ask women such things as “Would it be O.K. if I asked you out on a date?” “Would it be O.K. if I kissed you?”
In other words, they wanted the “autistic” guys to stop getting all the pussy and beta down the like the rest of the male students:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/05/education/edlife/traits.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
There is even a normal guy in the article complaining about his “autistic” roommate locking him out whenever there’s a woman staying all night.
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““President Obama’s 19.8 words per sentence added some difficulty for his target audience.”
Next Hollyweirdo meme: Obama too smart for these flyover numbskulls. We need to make him a dictator.
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“That is a long comment for pupu, I am amazed.”
sdaedalus, dear, pupu finds writing hard, but is too weak-willed to work on it. her mind works. what caught between her thoughts and words is usually a bundle of frustration.
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Rob S.,
Details, please!
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“Google autism expert Simon Baron-Cohen–yes, that is Sacha’s cousin– and his theory on why older men sire more autistic kids than younger men do. It’s not the age of the man that’s the issue. It’s that an older father is more likely to be on the autism spectrum himself than a younger man is. He marries/breed later because of his poor social skills. And what is game but an attempt to teach those skill?”
Another reason to hate game – it tricks women into having kids with a higher risk of autism!
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Off topic, check out this quote:
“A book of searing analysis and cries from the heart on the madness of war. Why is the half of humanity with a special sensitivity to the preciousness of life, the half untainted by testosterone poisoning, almost wholly unrepresented in defense establishments and peace negotiations worldwide?”
“Special sensitivity to the preciousness of life?” That is none other than Carl Sagan, peddling pretty lies.
What bullshit.
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After reading this post I suddenly got a relevation
I understood Christianity
Only women like to pray to a God who never answers them.
Women like a false, imagined God because he totally ignores them (and also has high status obviously)
Men, being the more practical sex, like to see rewards for their deeds so they go out of the church, into the world and work.
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I’m imagining Rum’s future game book _I Have Pork n’ Beans_.
If things get that bad though, I doubt you’ll see many women. We’ll become a commodity first, and then the strong ones will have to earn their freedoms, or inherit/earn them like the old days.
Looking back on the early days of feminism, that was where things went wrong: the, “I did it, so can you,” of privileged women who could afford to have perceived value inequality in the first place. What was going on with women who didn’t have a lot of money back then had more to do with human and labor rights than gender.
When the real value of men to maintain civilization can no longer be ignored, “I’m powerful and resourceful enough to feed your daughter and grandchildren,” to the fathers will mean much more than today’s male equivalent of, “Me lub you long time,” to the girls.
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@J
Some here might find that beta, but I personally find it refreshing.
Thank you. I’ve never represented myself as anything else (beta that is, not refreshing). And of course I like you (stop it!).
I read this as a combination of sour grapes and misrecognition of a real phenomenon. It’s not that the guys regress without a woman. It’s just that often it’s the less mature/socially skilled men who are left over when everyone else had paired up.
You have to look past her BS shaming language. The guys she wants to change aren’t socially challenged. They are alpha players complete with harems. She wants the alpha but doesn’t want to be a member of the harem (any more). I’m not sure if her change of heart is due to her now lower status in the pecking order, or her sense that after whoring around for a decade she needs to start looking for a man to marry. I’m guessing some of both.
I think you really struggle because this wasn’t the world you came of age in. You waited until your 30s to marry for your own (correct) reasons, so you have trouble seeing this even with bright neon signs. You are projecting your own innocence onto the guilty. An admirable quality except it can be dangerous.
As a future mother in law, you need to trade your Florence Nightingale hat for the robes and harsh light of a skeptical inquisitor. She isn’t a bird with a broken wing who needs to be mended. She is a cuckoo looking to invade your sons’ nest. Forget the sisterhood and jettison any baggage from your past which might cause you to fail in this key role in protecting both your sons and your future grandchildren. You also owe this to the nice and deserving girl who should be your future daughter in law and mother to your grandchildren whom this cuckoo would gladly push aside. This is your sacred duty.
As parents, we need to be on our guard against those who would tell us our sons need to “man up” and commit to a flighty tramp like this. I don’t have the heart to ask you to read the article yet again (I agree that it is excruciating), but if I did I would challenge you to read it again looking for shaming language. Once you learn to recognize this red flag you will start to see it everywhere. Sometimes shaming men (young and old) has merit. But much more often than not it is used today to manipulate them into truly awful situations.
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@walawala
“Lack of self-confidence. It’s easier to live a fantasy than to actually be real with a woman who might actually be on your level.”
So condescending to date a fat woman would confirm his worst suspicions about himself, while pretending that his fantasy could become a reality protects him emotionally. Interesting…
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@Jerry
“The New York Times wrote an article about this where they said that “autistic” male college students “don’t know when a woman is not interested” and thus “pursue relationships until confrontation”.”
That does tend to be true.
“They then lauded a special program where “mentors” taught the bad guys how to ask women such things as “Would it be O.K. if I asked you out on a date?” “Would it be O.K. if I kissed you?” ”
A bad strategy, but teaching people with autism to read social cues really does improve their interaction with others.
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@ Badger Nation
“Another reason to hate game – it tricks women into having kids with a higher risk of autism!”
The wives of the Aspergery men of my acquaintance tend to have one foot on the spectrum themselves–not necessarily diagnosable, but just sort of off socially. They tend to be social orbiters even among other bright women. They also tend to excel at the same sorts of jobs that Aspergery men do; work is usually where they met their husbands. I think assortative mating is a bigger factor in their relationships than game is, though anything that improves social skills has got to help these couples get together.
In terms of passing on autism, I’m sure the women bring their genetic contribution to the kids’ situation as well.
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@Jerry,
Roissy gets 3000 readers per day. I sometimes see my concepts or points repackaged and used in other’s comments….which justifies my commenting here, even if I have to stick my neck out and admit that I dated someone younger and/or better looking last night than a man normally gets to date in New York City and London.
When I was in Korea, I dated (or just had sex with) much hotter women than I did in the US. Seriously, the difference in what I managed there was night and day. Game made it possible to snag 9s regularly, seriously head-turningly hot women. And I mean, hot: these were women the Korean guys would tear themselves up over. A lot of Western guys would say this, and among them I was luckier than most because of game.
All the western men I knew had mini-harems, some of them not so mini, and they were all filled with hotter women then the last.
People don’t believe it, but if they knew, especially younger men, they’d all be on airplanes. I just can’t stress this enough.
I’m guessing Eastern Europe is similar in theme, if not in specific details.
That said, i was also relatively lucky in Western Europe, too.
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@Dalrock
“Thank you. I’ve never represented myself as anything else (beta that is, not refreshing). And of course I like you (stop it!).’
You’re welcome. I’ve said this before; beta is better. Although the terms is often used as an insult here and is overly broad for my tastes, I think greater beta is what quality women look for. ( And, I don’t plan of stopping soon.)
“You have to look past her BS shaming language. ..for a man to marry. I’m guessing some of both. ”
Well, if she really was out there trying to make a “Sex and the City” lifestyle a reality, then she is at fault or maybe just stupid.
“I think you really struggle because this wasn’t the world you came of age in. . . You are projecting your own innocence onto the guilty. ”
Maybe, I am. I have been off the market for the last 20-some years. But, while I do see some real sluts out there, I also see know broken birds. And I think I can tell the difference IRL.
“As a future mother in law, you need to trade your Florence Nightingale hat for the robes and harsh light of a skeptical inquisitor. .. in protecting both your sons and your future grandchildren.
Is that how you saw me? As that naive?
You also owe this to the nice and deserving girl … This is your sacred duty.
Oh, not to worry! My boys already know a slut when they see one. Dueling Borat imitations all around. “Very nice! How much?”
“As parents, we need to be on our guard against those who would tell us our sons need to “man up” and commit to a flighty tramp like this.”
Of course!
My husband and I try not to be judgemental of people’s mistakes, but we have a certain moral standards that can’t be crossed. When they are, it leads to heartbreak for all involved. We hold the line as to who the kids can associate with–including girls.
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Women are more for abortion than men.
http://womensissues.about.com/b/2007/11/09/gender-and-position-on-abortion.htm
Some sensitivity.
Sagan might be getting senile though so I will cut him some slack.
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shit, read all about this winner of a chick.
http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-girl-talk-im-ridiculously-hard-to-date/
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“If you ever met me, you’d probably think I’m a bitch. I wouldn’t argue.”
skipped straight to the comments after i read this.
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No new post, sigh.
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J, i don’t think you gave this man a chance by trying to introduce him to a fat women.
you need to introduce that man to this blog. that will change his life- and it will help him find a skinny chick that rates a 4.
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tupac,
you are a wild and crazy guy!
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As an aside CC and i are terrorizing Manhattan women with some piss poor roissy inspired daygame. Pepper spray, yoga mats and poo-lice be damned.
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Sweet fuck I love listening and watching these women complain while I drink in the bars of Arlington and DC. It’s such deliciously rich schadenfreude it would be too much if I still had a soul, but I just can’t get enough.
So far the best to watch and fuck with are the aging hipsters and 30ish overachievers with the clearances and three letter agency jobs. I love those ole’ gals.
The hipsters pissed their youth away fucking indie rockers, getting tattoos, and the like while developing no job skills beyond sucking cock and tending bar, while the clearance queens spent their 20s living lives of boredom and monotony to get their current TS/SCI/BBQ/WTFE-cleared fed jobs “defending our nation” or whatever bullshit they tell themselves to get by and collect their next paycheck.
By this time their bitterness and desperation just oozes out of them like sweat dripping from the fat folds of a large-and-in-charge DC bitch running a marathon, and that sweat tastes like honey to me. Pure honey made from the finest wildflowers in the land.
They are so easy to manipulate it’s almost sad. Almost.
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@J
while I do see some real sluts out there, I also see know broken birds. And I think I can tell the difference IRL.
I don’t think you can.
I’m not saying this because you read I don’t care about x sort of guy unless I’m horny and then I’ll sleep with him and thought there’s a nice young lady struggling to find a decent man to marry. I say this because Roissy and the guys on this forum are if nothing else experts on sluts, and what they have shared has been eye opening to me. Ask them if they think you or your sons would guess their latest pump and dump or same night lay was a slut. For that matter, ask if her parents, pastor, or even worse her husband has any idea. If you don’t trust PUAs, trust my wife who sees the same trends Roissy outlines in the middle school girls she teaches at a private Christian school in Dallas. This can’t be a coincidence. Something has gone very wrong with our culture, and 99% of the population is oblivious to it.
My boys already know a slut when they see one. Dueling Borat imitations all around. “Very nice! How much?”
Contrary to popular belief, most sluts don’t go around wearing hooker boots, a red cape, and a giant “S” on their low cut top. The way you will likely spot the slut winnowing her way into your son’s lives is by the pattern she will follow. She will likely show up fully hatched in her 30s (or just below) just like the author of the article. Or if your sons are like my brother in law, she will show up as a single mother with a slew of kids and an equal number of man-done-me-wrong tales. Instead of dueling borat imitations, she will be practiced at evoking “what an independent woman!” or “all of those baby-daddies were such jerks!”.
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“Women Don’t Want You To Remember Everything About Them”
Good, because I don’t. I don’t even remember much about some girls I dated and fucked for months.
Forgetfulness Game in da house!!!!!
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J,
Despite your unwillingness to see the truth Roissy and the others have laid out so bare, I do think there is hope for you.
I can just imagine you meeting some nice 30 something career gal who is interested in one of your sons. The angel on your shoulder will say “What a nice independent young woman!”. The angel might even use the terms sassy or spunky, and you will smile to yourself. But then GBFM will appear on the opposite shoulder saying:
“Younger. Hotter. Tighter. lzozlzllz”
Thrown off guard, instead of saying “What a nice bible you are carrying” as you intended you will blurt out “Have you ever had fiat neocon butthex in a stinky bathroom stall?”
By the guilty look on her face you will know the game is up.
Then suddenly you hear rustling outside your window; you investigate just in time to see Ben Bernanke struggling to make his escape through your bushes with his secret taping camera.
Happens all the time.
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I really can’t help feeling that the author of this article is smarting from not having had a date to the school prom. There is almost a personal glee to her comments.
From my own experience as a woman working with women, I’ve yet to be convinced that they are more empathetic or better managers in the workplace, I would say the contrary more often applies.
It is my experience (and I include myself in this) that women find it more difficult to handle stress at work and also have more difficulty separating the personal from the professional. I find that good female managers (and when good, they are usually very good) are those who have recognised these tendencies in themselves and taken steps to minimise the problems arising from them.
However a lot of women, particularly self-professed feminists deny having any tendencies in this regard and instead go on about their empathy, team-building and so forth (these are always the women who are worst to work for). Imo women do bring positive qualities to the workplace but a team bonding atmosphere or empathy is most definitely not one of them, women are individuals rather than team players by nature, the so called male hierarchial system actually suits women far better.
In “Up in the Air” the irony was that George Clooney was far better at his job than his junior female colleague, and a far nicer person than the two-timing mangina (in the real sense of the word) he was shagging.
I agree that women tend to be bunched towards the middle of the creativity/criminality spectrum and in this regard innovation could be stifled as female control of the corporate culture increases.
However what I would say is that innovation never comes from within the corporate culture anyway. It is worth considering whether in fact the corporate developments outlined in the article (a lot of which in my view are pure propaganda) might by encouraging men away from this culture into self-employment actually increase innovation.
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Sorry, have no idea how it happened, but comment appears to have attached itself to wrong post. Will change.
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Dalrock,
lzollzllz indeed. Love the image of a mini-GBFM in a red halloween devil costume with lozlzllz crackling between his horns like static electricity while he jabs J’s shoulder with his pitchfork.
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“i don’t think you gave this man a chance by trying to introduce him to a fat women. you need to introduce that man to this blog. that will change his life- and it will help him find a skinny chick that rates a 4.
How’s about a 2 who will love his mom.
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@ Dalrock
“I’m not saying this because you read I don’t care about x sort of guy unless I’m horny and then I’ll sleep with him and thought there’s a nice young lady struggling to find a decent man to marry.”
I do see your point. And you’r right, I missed it; I blew it off. OTOH, I see some of that sort of talk, especially in the context of that article, as the girl kidding herself that she is in control. It’s bravado. I guess although I saw it; I didn’t believe she meant it. But, I also don’t believe half of the extreme stuff I hear here, for the same reason.
OTOH, I didn’t fall all in love with RV, who was “almost a virgin.” like you guys did. You all fell all over her. I told to shut her legs until her boyfriend married her.
“This can’t be a coincidence. Something has gone very wrong with our culture, and 99% of the population is oblivious to it.”
Well, standards are lower. People become enured.
My boys already know a slut when they see one. Dueling Borat imitations all around. “Very nice! How much?”….
Instead of dueling borat imitations, she will be practiced at evoking “what an independent woman!” or “all of those baby-daddies were such jerks!”.
Er, no. We’d look askance at that.
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@Dalrock,
“I can just imagine you meeting some nice 30 something career gal who is interested in one of your sons.”
I really hope to see my sons married before that happens.
Other than that, amusing post.
on June 17, 2010 at 4:59 pm SDaedalus
I really can’t help feeling that the author of this article is smarting from not having had a date to the school prom. There is almost a personal glee to her comments.
From my own experience as a woman working with women, I’ve yet to be convinced that they are more empathe
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Sorry about any confusion resulting form my post at 6:41.
I must have grabbed too much when I cut and pasted.
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@J
I didn’t fall all in love with RV, who was “almost a virgin.” like you guys did. You all fell all over her.
That discussion thread meant nothing to me. I swear I was thinking of you the whole time I was posting to her.
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Much too much to read while drunk
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@SDaed
Sadly, my experiences in working with women echo yours. I also spend a lot of time a home “coaching” my husband on dealing with female staff catfights, inappropriate dress, etc.
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@J
The thing is that a good woman boss is very good. A classic example of a woman with very good managerial skills (although I wouldn’t agree with all of her policies) would have been Margaret Thatcher. The focus needs to be on what differentiates such a woman from the average woman boss. I think it is the ability to recognise the differences between men & women in a managerial capacity & play up the strengths while minimising the weaknesses. Many women can’t identify the strengths and won’t admit to the weaknesses.
PS Maggie never quite managed the getting along with other women thing, but I think it is possible too.
I don’t think women are that bad in a non-managerial role, subject to the lengthy paid maternity leave point, which is very hard on small employers and also on other employees forced to cover. Again, it is not fashionable to talk about the problems this causes.
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“OTOH, I didn’t fall all in love with RV, who was “almost a virgin.” like you guys did. You all fell all over her.”
Beauty with brains, a deadly killer madam.And why would you fall in love with her?
After hundreds of scientific studies saying the same I believe that women are more empathetic, but sympathy and empathy aren’t necessarily the same. Compassion is a rare virtue; in women, rarer still.
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Gorby,
Hey man, I appreciate the girls-are-dogs-analogy. Dog-training principles work remarkably well on women (and men, big shocker there). Obviously.
However, your analogy sucks balls. “Keep her off balance” is good advice in a relationship, fo’ sho’. “Keep her off balance” is not even close to “dog training” advice. That’s all. Stick wit’ the chicas and leave the puppies alone, is my advice. SRSLY.
THE LIL.
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Gorbachev
Being respectful towards girls within the sexual attraction/dating range, or even on the periphery of that, or towards girls who may be friends or acquaintances of a hottie, is one of the first things a game learning and aspiring beta should drop.
Now that DOESN’T mean being the opposite, completely disprespectful or scornful towards girls or women generally. Which is a mistake often made e.g. here by betas who’ve taken Roissy’s injunction to be more of an “asshole” to literally, or heard it with too little understanding. At best that’s a curative exercise for ingrained good guy/white knighting upbringing, but it’s not generally the most attractive thing, particularly in attracting the higher quality kind of hotties.
The attitude to have is playfulness and perhaps mild condescension. Always think of girls as wanting to follow and ultimately submit to a worthy, emotionally exciting man. Just assume as a given that you are such a man, but be in no great hurry to prove it to her. Just own that confidence, and playfully toy with her a bit, or a lot.
Oh you can respect things the individual girl is actually very good at; and shouldn’t be reluctant to show that. But never be awed. More, well that’s intriguing. You’re looking high value after all perhaps, is the attitude. But don’t respect just her looks or sexy hotness. That’s a given in your attraction, you should feel and communicate. You should give her the idea that she has it, which is all to the good, but that it’s not enough. You are enough in demand that you must see more from her.
Anyway just respecting her automatically because she’s female is very beta. It’s actually a feminist reversal of the more natural tendency for women to respect men (and/or to a degree fear them which is part and parcel), to a degree, just because they’re men. At least if they’re not very unworthy or wussy ones. Of course feminists want to erase by laws and lying exaggeration campaigns about date rape and so on, and passing VAWA, to neutralize this fear/power differential (aka emasculate men) as much as possible.
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sdaedalus–
Another of the many feminist laws I’ve come, upon reflection over a longish time, to flat out oppose.
I used to be a pragmatic “liberal” (in the American sense of that word). Realism has largely killed most of that.
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I think the paid maternity leave issue has been taken to extremes.
There is a sense that a woman has an automatic entitlement to have a child, with or without a father, with or without being able to provide for it. I think this is a very selfish philosophy.
I don’t necessarily think a woman should automatically have to give up her job because she has children (it may be better for the children, but in the current economic climate it may not be financially sensible) so obviously some facility for leave would have to be given (particularly if there were medical complications) but I think the leave is too extensive, particularly the paid element.
If a woman is to take paid maternity leave it should be a requirement that she return to work at the end of it, or refund the money. Too many women take the paid maternity leave intending never to return, this is dishonest imo. Also, a lot of women time their kids with a year or two in between & go back to work for a short space of time to get two sets of paid maternity leave.
The difficulty is that it is often other women bear the burden of people who behave like this, both in terms of having to cover for them at work, and in terms of being assumed to be tarred with the same brush. This is particularly annoying. Not all of us want to milk the system.
If self-employed women can manage without extensive paid maternity leave, why should it be any different for women in employment?
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@Lilgirl,
Gorby,
Hey man, I appreciate the girls-are-dogs-analogy. Dog-training principles work remarkably well on women (and men, big shocker there). Obviously.
Chickens, too.
However, your analogy sucks balls. “Keep her off balance” is good advice in a relationship, fo’ sho’. “Keep her off balance” is not even close to “dog training” advice. That’s all. Stick wit’ the chicas and leave the puppies alone, is my advice. SRSLY.
THE LIL.
Off balance was probably a poor choice of word.
I should have said: Keep up the unexpected.
For STRs, anyway, it works well. For good long LTRs, you might need to stretch out the intervals, …
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@johnny five
more @gorbs
The backlash is beginning, and then the shit hits the fan, it’ll be women leading it, actually.
nope. not literally.
if women “lead” the backlash, they will do so only by their time-tested method of standing safely in the rearguard while yelling commands and exhortations to tractable male foot soldiers.
and, even if this happens, it won’t happen en masse until a critical mass of backlash is already reached.
female brain, improvisation, leadership, etc.
Of course. This is what I meant by “leadership”. We’re talking about women, right?
It’s why I always thought “Consensus-leading” was a contradiction in terms.
What makes me sick is how easy it is to get male footsoldiers. The footsoldiers think the female leaders are the same as male leaders.
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@Rebelliousvanilla,
I still disagree with you about racial/cultural diversity. I think the intellectual tension in multiethnic states creates a convergence and clarification of ideas that creates great societies. To a limit, of course. And only when times are good.
BUT, you’re bang on in your economics of the collapse of the US. I don’t know why we ever thought we could manage without an industrial base. We’ve given up the profitable sectors and no-one ever stopped shopping at Wal Mart long enough to notice.
Gorbachev, you nailed it. I don’t see why I’d mind older men liking younger women though. I like older men. And no, if you’re not a feminist, you’re accused of being a gender traitor and a self-hating person.
Sidewinder, America isn’t wealthy, nor productive. You have over 80 trillion of unfunded liabilities, on top of your $13 trillion debt. And this just at the governmental level. Then you add corporate and consumer debt. How the heck are you wealthy? Singapore is wealthy. And productive? Last time I checked, you have a current account deficit and a trade deficit. Also, you don’t need to have 30% of the people unemployed. It’s called capital accumulation and economic expansion. Sure, the 70% would be more efficient, but in order to have a competitive economy, the 30% who should get other jobs, would do something else. The biggest myth comes from the idea that having unemployed people raises aggregate productivity. If you can produce more wealth due to productivity increases and sack 30% of the people, you can make even more wealth by employing those 30% too. Socialism is bankrupt, just like communism.
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sdaedalus
First of all as a meta guiding principle, I’m opposed to most everything that makes it easier for women to have and raise children without contributing husbands. I think women should be strong financially encouraged by all sorts of laws to have a husband or providing and child raising male long term (til kids are of majority anyway) male partner, and to not divorce him. And if they are divorce w/young kids to remarry a sufficently dad type. If he’s also got alpha edge, well good for her.
Second, and more specifically to paid maternity leave, it is paid for by the rest of that company’s workforce in effect by somewhat lower wages and/or other benefits than the might otherwise have. Inevitably this means that it will be a great deal more paid for by the male employees, since few of them will take it, even if’s it’s available to men on equal terms. It’s yet another way in which policies discriminate in favor of women.
I general I WANT men to have a structural advantage in the workplace, for all kinds of social reasons, that any long term reader of this website who’s at all reflective can figure out/ will have seen discussed by both Roissy and some of his more perceptive commenters.
That doesn’t mean I want women to be actively discouraged from working including in professional and managerial positions, if they can compete equally for them. But some social discouragement, by no means absolute or not allowing for exceptions, for women to emphasize career over or to the detriment of child raising and family, yes. On average, as a general matter I mean, instead of this strong feminist careerist pressure we have from our schools and feminist influenced media. That certainly allows for a post college career path and returning to work as kids are in school, or if lots of domestic help maybe earlier.
As for unpaid leave. Well I’m more sympathetic but what that really means is a woman’s guaranteed to get her job back with the same employer at the same level. I don’t think that should go on forever. Really I don’t think it should be a law or intense social /media pressure norm to do so. Unfair to other workers. On the other hand, for not too lengthy absenses, I think it good for employers to not be irrationally prejudiced against it. I think now that’s how that would largely go if all such laws or threats of lawsuits on general discrimination principals were changed (I won’t get into how to do that here). Employers want their good workers back. There’s also the problem of replacing them temporarily when the do take leaves. In rapidly growing enterprises or firms this can often be more easily accommodated.
I’ll tell you flat out SDaedalus. These days I can’t think of a single feminist support or lobbied for law that I wouldn’t like to repeal. With the exception in my case of ones I don’t think you’ll agree with. That is abortion rights. Though there I think it should all have been legislative, as it already was in some states when Roe was finally decided by the Supremes, with more states surely to follow. It was growing. Though certainly not all states would follow. People can travel and charities can fund that travel.
Feminists keep this knowledge from the world and in fact generally vastly distort the protrayal of women in the workforce including in professional positions and in academia beginning in the 50s, well really to some extent the 20s, and continuing before feminist laws in the 60s. It was gathering steam as a social phenomenon and didn’t actually need the laws. Most strong discrimination against women in the workforce was already lifting rapidly, voluntarily at more leading parts of the business and professional world with more and more sure to soon follow.
What we’ve gotten is all kinds of feminist pro female discrimination, from most aspects of sexual harassment law (men guilty until proven innocent, and the environment all female direction changed instead of mutual accomodation and much more varying results. I’m talking America her not Ireland. Of course requiring sexual favors as a quid pro quo for work or not being fired should be illegal but not much more. There were already sexual assault laws so far as real groping goes, as opposed to the bs any touch that can cause real problems for men now, even when they stop when she expresses displeasure. and so on.)
Yuup, against feminism pretty much across the board. But like lots of women in the workplace in professional positions, if they’re threated the same. Love that my live together younger girl M is a successful professional woman (in a rather feminine field or subfield) and that Bhetti’s an honors med student in London, and will soon be a doctor.
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Gorbachev–
I’m for diversity among smart immigrants we let in. But not letting in any more mass immigration, and certainly not ANY MASS immigration of groups or ethnicity which our society has a whole, or anyway or elites and media, have decided need and hence actually generally get affirmative action.
In other words not all diversity is the same. This country would in fact be FAR better off if we have very few of certain racial/ethnic groups. Not none and all groups make some kind of contribution. As well there’s always room in this big country for SOME, a few, of the talented tenth, or smaller percentage than that, of any ethnic/racial group. And think who I’m talking about can be made quite clear by looking at violent crime statistics applicable to the third and later generation in America of certain groups, and by IQs and selective college (not open university systems with their sometimes very low standards) graduation rates, again among the third and later generations in America.
Canada has a far more meritocratic, highly skilled or educated titled immigration set of policies than the US does, with it’s very liberal family unification principals/lobbied by immigrants results. Canada’s the way we should go, including getting serious about stopping illegal immigration, particularly of the affirmative action getting type groups, but really of all unskilled and not highly educated immigrants. We might have once needed such people in large numbers for our factories or anyway at least been able to use them; now they put higher wage demanding working class Americans out of work. While our unemployment rate is over 10%, with a much larger percentage among men and esp. working class men.
I feel similarly about interracial marriage. I’ve got no problem with a lot of it. But I’m generally opposed to black white interracial marriage or for that matter even dating. I suppose I’d feel similarly about a few other groups but that’s not so relevant in America as a real life thing. Between groups one of which retains a deeply hostile and resentful attitude towards the other, as a general and very meaningful social matter (see actual interactions in schools etc., with some individual exceptions of course in some places) e.g. blacks and whites, then yes.
This is so much true that as a rule, with fairly rare exceptions, the children of black male white female marriages or other unions, will be insisted upon as being black by black peers in schools and their parents as well, including e.g. by the black grandparents of the children, even if the father doesn’t so much feel that way. Not equally mixed and equally black and white, but essentially black. Haley Berry is consider black even though her father abandoned her and her white mother, who exclusively raised her, when she was younger than 3. Her white mother gets little public credit or acknowledgment. For that matter Barak Obama really has a very similar story. They abound in the children of black white unions. Though they’re still rare. As of the last available census, only 1/2 of one percent of married white females are marred to black men. But the leftist US mass entertainment media is certainly now pushing for MUCH more, and avidly now portraying much more.
Yes the looks in children of such unions will strongly tend to be in the black direction (unless the black parent is quite light skinned, which with culture too can become quite different) but so will the culture identified with. This is heavily out of parents hands after awhile and also they will feel great pressure. The white wife will. AS for that matter will her white parents, the white grandparents to the kid. No I don’t want that at all.
And I refuse to adhere to the media and schools taboo on whites expressing any such feelings or now objections to black white marriage or dating. There’s even pressure on white girls in some quarters to try black guys so as not to look racist. Well that’s crap and I’m not going along. Soto voce most whites aren’t but they have to be careful in what they widely say under their own names if they’re in any kind of elitish job or position certainly. Such is the marching propaganda of the ever more stringent PC generating left, reflected in our mass media.
Note that most other successful ethnic groups have at least as strong a group ethnic feeling about their women especially marrying or dating black. East Asians. South Asians too. Most middle easterners in truth, despite what’s sometimes said. Obviously where there’s already more black admixture it will be somewhat different but it still almost everywhere is disfavored among the hotter and esp. the socially higher class white or other non black girls. E.g. Brazil. Or even N. Africa.
One can call this prejudice but it’s natural among all ethnic groups, to favor marrying their own, or if any other group, a least one which is generally high status in the overall society in question. It’s a human universal. Over time and large numbers, IQ is also very important in creating the success which creates the general higher status.
Meanwhile black women can strenuously object to black /white interracial dating or marriage without violating any strong media taboos (they shrink right back from pressing that with black women) or any strong racial propaganda. Or the violation as a purity matter is simply ignored and treated as ok.
As well the IQ gap matters in general, as does regression to the mean. In that regard, and also as a result of the distortions of affirmative action, it matters that the highest quartile in income child of black families score WORSE on SAT tests than the lowest family income quarter of white children.
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At the same time I’m not in favor of laws against any interracial unions. Ethnic social pressure against is a different matter. As well there are black / white unions which are somewhat different and I would have a hard time saying it’s never ever a good idea. The one way cultural thing the white wife and kid tends to face is one of the biggest things and when and where that’s really not true a lot become different, or quite a bit different. Still everywhere, it’s just wrong to shout racism for girls and other who tend to want to date their own, or only certain other ethnicities (e.g. Latin Americans), and not others. And hatred or belittling is always ugly.
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Doug
As a self-employed woman, I would have to plan & save up before I could have kids, unless I had a husband with the money & the willingness to fund my leave & the longer-term drop in business which would result from this. Where I come from, with high mortgages & an economic downturn, this is not necessarily a given nowadays no matter how hard-working the husband.
I think it probably is best for kids if their mother is at home but this does not suit every mother & child and can be difficult economically and a part-time solution or scaling down business if self-employed could be a compromise.
The point is that unless a self-employed woman is very lucky financially she has to budget for kids. Why should someone in employment get a pass on this?
Self-employed women manage all the time without this facility. I don’t necessarily think their children are any worse off, if anyone has a study to this effect let me know.
I’m not opposed to all or even most aspects of women’s rights, I like being able to study & work, but I prefer to do so on equal terms. Nor am I a fan of a gynocentric workplace, I find the traditional system suits me better.
Re. length of maternity leave, I think a mandatory three months is not unreasonable, possibly a bit longer if medical complications. Longer than that is very difficult for a lot of employers.
And every woman has to accept that taking leave in a job will slow down her career to some extent, if you can’t compromise to some extent to have a kid you obviously don’t want one very much, kids involve compromises in all aspects of life, not just careers. I think there are ways to minimise any harm to one’s career though.
I think men and women should get equal pay for equal work, provided they do equal work, my view would be in favour of competition on equal terms, and I don’t think women as incomers should necessarily be entitled to set those terms.
I’m not a fan either of women being asked questions at interviews about their marital status or plans re. children (this is barred where I come from) but I can understand the temptation given the maternity leave issue.
I’m very conflicted on the question of abortion myself. Given that pregnancy can be detected very early these days, I wonder whether or not more facility for very early abortion might be preferable to the current situation. Although I haven’t really made up my mind, I’m not fully sure that life begins on conception and it is really when the foetal brain has started to form that abortion becomes particularly dreadful.
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@Doug
I agree with you on the sexual harassment issue.
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Gorby,
Homie, no matter how you swing it this is crap-ass advice for the training of animals. Animals need consistency, not “the unexpected” during the training process. Once they are trained, well, that’s a different story. Humans/enlightened, sentient beings are different. This is not to say that humans cannot be subject to animal training — they can. Nor is it to say that “keep up the unexpected” is not good dealing-with-humans advice. This is to say that “keep up the unexpected” is not (good) animal training advice.
If any animal has been trained by you in this manner, the training has stuck DESPITE its trainer’s lack of consistency and awful game-applied-to-animal-training technique, not because of it. Also, chickens? Where are you, Kansas?
SRSLY.
THE LIL.
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Doug —
By your logic, you should also disagree with interracial unions between Asians and Whites/Europeans. In fact, if you took East Asians and Western Europeans, the IQ gap between the two “races” would be virtually the same as the IQ gap between Western Europeans and North Africans.
Also, I am curious as to why you put so much weight on IQ. To quote the one person I know who is almost certainly higher IQ than everyone here: “I have more of [IQ] than anyone I’ve ever met, so I, of all people, can tell you that IQ counts for shit. I would easily take a 50-point IQ drop tomorrow, if I could.”
SRSLY.
THE LIL.
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Oh, heh, let’s ignore the fact that the aforementioned homie taking a 50-pt IQ drop would still not put him within shouting distance of “average” IQ.
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Doug:
Yuup, against feminism pretty much across the board. But like lots of women in the workplace in professional positions, if they’re threated [sic] the same.
…
and that Bhetti’s an honors med student in London, and will soon be a doctor.
Ya ok.
What of the opportunity costs, though, in fields that are ultimately not bullshit, and in which attrition has tangible costs?
Specifically, what if your beloved med student works full-time for 8 years, then slams on the brakes entirely to have small children, then re-enters in the “mommy track”?
That sort of thing translates DIRECTLY into a shortage of competent medical care — you’re spending the same amount of resources for half the lifetime sum of professional practice.
What’s your proposed solution, to right this particular inequity?
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Epoxy, cost of labor is not the cost of training amortized over the lifetime of that labor.
Labor is not zero sum. Unless you are talking about lawyers, and then it’s negative sum.
Labor is what economics is. Well, actually it’s labor plus the oil required to extract and mould resources, but until oil runs out, oil is also just labor. Doctors do stuff of value. You can’t really have too many of them.
In Bali I was once bedridden. I was able to make it over to the neighbors house, introduce myself and ask for help, and go back to my room to lie down. A female doctor made a house call an hour later.
“House call?!”, I thought. I was amazed and grateful.
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xsplat — the argument is based on the implicit premise that the supply of potential medical students exceeds the number of places at medical schools. Given the cutthroat competition at those schools, that’s certainly a valid assumption at this time.
So it’s not a matter of more doctors vs. fewer doctors; it’s a matter of maximizing the productive output of the currently inelastic supply of doctors.
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Oh. Well if there is a fixed supply of education, then ya, it should be used sparingly.
I wonder why there is a fixed supply of education?
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Re: Lots of Females in Medicine
It is a wonderful thing if you are a male MD. It is win, win.
1.It reduces your competition in every relevant marketplace.
2. Their adoring eyes on you is rocket-fueled social proof, especially with the nurses..
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If you like nurses and female doctors, go to Cebu, Phillipines. There are several medical schools and hospitals in the city. Very pretty girls, very pretty outfits. Makes sickness hardly a hardship.
It’s an ugly, noisy, smoggy city, and the culture is rude and slightly evil, but I still have a fondness for Cebuanos. (Cebuanas? Cebuanitas?)
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[…] The Sexual Market Stripped Naked, Women Don’t Want You To Remember Everything About Them, The End Of Beta Providers, Study Confirming My View Of The Job-Sexual […]
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[…] Renegade: Women Don’t Want You to Remember Everything About Them, The End of Beta Providers, and God’s Perfect […]
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You might say that oil is a resource, while labor is a distinct class of economic variable. Yes, but resources are protected by labor. The man hours of military industrial complex activity required to extract and protect the resource of oil turns that commodity into just another aspect of labor.
Of course it’s a resource that gets monopolized by the powerful, which means it concentrates wealth. The ultimate resource – the only real resource – is labor. Be it in the form of the number of gold trinkets one has, or the number of serfs, monetary exchange is all about the hierarchy of class express through the barter and control of labor. To be the alpha is to be the recipient of others doing your bidding more than you do the bidding of others.
And sex child rearing is form of labor – so if you have lots of women lining up offering you sex, that’s having others freely do your bidding. If you don’t pay for sex, you are alpha – the exchange is in your favor.
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I’d take this whole idea back one step.
The last 30 years have seen a historically unprecedented debt expansion in this country. This debt expansion is the basis for the shift from manufacturing to a knowledge worker-based society. Not only has this given rise to women becoming more masculine and the superfluousness of men, but an equalization in terms of consumption between the rich and the poor.
Huge amounts of debt leveled the playing field for everyone. But the debt unwind, with it’s concomitant deflation, is on. The government can only backstop so much private debt before a total implosion of the dollar.
With deflation through debt destruction, industry and manufacturing will return to this country, along with tough times for all those who became indebted, and spent instead of saved. Men will be needed cnce again. Men to lift heavy things, men to kill things, men to protect women from things, men, real fucking men. Men who by force of circumstance must take what they need.
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I don’t have an intuitive grasp on the concept of debt. All I understand is productivity+hours of labor. Nowhere do I see where it makes a difference how all this is counted or discounted.
Now trade deficits – those I have a better feeling for. You can’t keep shelves in Walmart stocked unless you are trading for the goods on those shelves with labor of an equal value. Currency exchanges and loans won’t stock the shelves forever. The only real and sustainable exchange is a real exchange of labor/resources.
The U.S. is as rich as it’s production/resource capacity. As is China, or any other country. A recession is only a time when people’s financial system disincentivises their labor – but people like to work, and eventually do after the money revaluates. The U.S. doesn’t have a debt problem. It has a production/resource problem. It has a dependence on the labor of other nations problem.
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Chinese officials through currency valuations decided to discount the cost of their labor, and sell it at a 1:10 or some such ration. Because they are at the top of the pyramid, they can sell it at 1:1000 and still do great. They then took this windfall and “lent” it back to the U.S., which is basically just another form of discounting the cost of their labor. Even if China lost 100% of their loans, it wouldn’t matter. Because they mobilized all these people labor.
Consider the economic boom after a war. It doesn’t matter how or if anything is paid for. It’s how hard people are working. Mobilize all your labor, and you ramp up technology and production. And that is what an economy is – productivity plus labor.
You can always re-valuate your fiat currency – once you have your infrastructure in place, the currency served it’s purpose. People are working.
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POSITIVE EUGENICS
Eugenics doesn’t need to be racist, fundamentally. I think this is what Canada is doing: A vast eugenics experiment.
@Doug1
Gorbachev–
“I still disagree with you about racial/cultural diversity. I think the intellectual tension in multiethnic states creates a convergence and clarification of ideas that creates great societies. To a limit, of course. And only when times are good.”
I’m for diversity among smart immigrants we let in. But not letting in any more mass immigration, and certainly not ANY MASS immigration of groups or ethnicity which our society has a whole, or anyway or elites and media, have decided need and hence actually generally get affirmative action.
In other words not all diversity is the same.
SELECTIVE EUGENICS
I’ll buy being selective. I think we should let people in, but select the smart and talented. I have to agree with one thing: Letting in, say, smart black people and hispanics seems to have a limited negative effect on Canada. Canada seems to have a much higher quality of black/hispanic populations than we do. This has a big cultural aspect, too: Black American culture, ghetto culture, is sick.
Example: In the US, Jamaicans are seen as eminently superior to black Americans: More industrious, smarter, less prone to crime or gangsta culture.
In Canada, Jamaicans are at the bottom of the Black social hierarchy, this I hear from many Canadians. The Caribbeans in Canada mostly seem to do very well, except the Jamaicans.
Tells you something about what we ended up with down here.
CANADA: A EUGENICS EXPERIMENT
With this immigration program, Canada may in fact be a huge Multi-Racial Eugenics Experiment.
A lot of the white people who resist immigration are going to be less-bright, less-talented white people who watch the newcomers slowly take over the management of their country, or short-sighted small-town/suburban types – because the newcomers are the best of wherever they come from, and suburban types detest difference of any kind.
[editor: or maybe they just want to be around people who think and act like them.]
BTW, a country also needs soldiers, bricklayers, construction workers and proles. Canada’s going to get a good swath of really useful citizens if it drags people like this in.
[please look up regression to the mean.]
Actually, from a purely pragmatic nation-building sense, the Canadian immigration program is fucking genius. You get to pick what you want, basically: Cherry-Picking what you want from the rest of the world.
People who don’t get this because they think all blacks are fucked or Hispanics are useless, don’t see how potentially useful this is. What the US is doing might be a disaster, but Canada seems to have its head screwed on tight.
Canada seems to be doing a lot better than us on these scores.
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@LILGRL
I should have said: Keep up the unexpected.
Homie, no matter how you swing it this is crap-ass advice for the training of animals. Animals need consistency, not “the unexpected” during the training process. Once they are trained, well, that’s a different story. Humans/enlightened, sentient beings are different. This is not to say that humans cannot be subject to animal training — they can. Nor is it to say that “keep up the unexpected” is not good dealing-with-humans advice. This is to say that “keep up the unexpected” is not (good) animal training advice.
If any animal has been trained by you in this manner, the training has stuck DESPITE its trainer’s lack of consistency and awful game-applied-to-animal-training technique, not because of it. Also, chickens? Where are you, Kansas?
SRSLY.
THE LIL.
I used to keep chickens in summers on my grandmother’s farm. I’d train them for fun. Unbelievably stupid but easily trainable birds. Also trained pigs; incredibly smart animals.
But the superstition effect works a treat with, well, … treats.
You of course need consistency: You need to consistently throw out treats 30-60% of the time. Lots of dog trainers swear by this. I’m not of the negative-training or reinforcement philosophy. My ex wife was a part-time professional dog trainer, and was called the “dog whisperer”.
Anyway, I learned useful things about “training” women from her dog training methods.
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Roissy’s point about regression to the mean is a very serious one. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t admit very high-quality members of any ethnic group, but don’t have unrealistic expectations. For example, if you have a country with a mean IQ of 85 and you let in people who are 125 or more, their kids will regress to 110 or so but that’s still above average, and *all regression to the mean occurs in the first generation* so that 110 will be stable.
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[that’s having others freely do your bidding. If you don’t pay for sex, you are alpha – the exchange is in your favor]
While this is true in one direction, let’s keep in mind that some readers, in the past, have mistaken this type of statement to mean the converse is true: that you are – somehow by definition – beta or gamma if you pay for sex. This misconception has been made a few times by impoverished male PUA beginners who have sour grapes about men with money getting the best looking women as well as some social conservative males.
Roissy has said that paid sex with a 10 is better than unpaid sex with a 9.
Paid sex includes buying dinner and theater tickets for the first date and paying for the rental car and room on the second date, etc. It would also include convincing a college freshman to try out amateur lap-dancing with you as her first customer.
What makes a man beta IMO is if he spends money on a woman and doesn’t get anything worthwhile out of it – or if he spends any money at all on an 8 or less. It is also beta to spend money on a 9 or 10 before number closing and changing venues from the spot you met her.
But, otherwise, a rich man with a wife and unpaid mistress is probably not going to have the *time* to expand his MLTR with additional 9s and 10s aged 18-21 without a little added incentive…at least in terms of all-expenses aspect of her trip to Hawaii with him for *business*.
Here is an example of the time factor at work: My gf called me last week while I was late at the office to say she’d take a long hot bath and we can exchange our goodnights on the phone in 1.5 hours. A good beta provider wouldn’t have done anything with that 1.5 hours. I called a Rose McGowan look-alike whom I had met at a friend’s party two weeks ago and been out with for a one hour date a week before. We agreed to meet for pizza in 15 minutes.
While chomping down pizza I said “So show me your apartment after I finish this”. She said “What for” and later “Not tonight”. I said “Come on over to my place then and I will make you fresh squeezed orange juice”. I made a point of saying that I was good at squeezing oranges. She answered “Sounds good but I’ll take a raincheck.”.
By now I only had 45 minutes to get the whole date finished. So I said “I injured my shoulder and have to pay a lot for massages but I will pay you half your rent if you give me one right now”. With some additional push and pull, she agreed to a “non-erotic” massage.
But, of course, once a woman you are dating is giving you a normal, non-erotic massage in your own home, any man with half a clue and some moxy will make things go more in the direction he wants.
But I had to pay to get her there with the time factor exactly the way I wanted, which was well worth it. Money is a tool of game. Just don’t let others tool you over it.
I was free to call my gf around 15 minutes late but still well outside the point where she got angry or suspicious about what I might have been doing with my time.
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@Dalrock
Hi–It’s been a busy few days. I left our discussion on Thursday night to pick up my kids at a basement jam session, then ended up bringing back not just my own kids but a few more. My husband was out of town, so my sons saw Thursday night as the perefect time to have friends in. They were pretty good, but still managed to have a good time. Friday, my husband came home ,and then the weekend and Father’s Day were upon us.
Anyway, I wanted to get back to our discussion if it’s not too late. I see this is a dead thread, but I’m assuming that you get email notification about replies.
You said, “I think you really struggle because this wasn’t the world you came of age in. .. You are projecting your own innocence onto the guilty.”
True enough, perhaps, but I also see what the college aged daughters of my friends are going through. I see a lot of nice, lonely girls who in different time would probably be happier girls. Because these girls are in college, most of the men they meet are also in college. Most of the men plan on grad school, then getting established, then maybe getting married. None of the men want to marry before 30, many don’t see themselves as marrying before 35. I think the girls have very low expectations of getting a guy to commit and that contributes greatly to the acceptance of hook-up culture. I see a lot of bravado about not wanting marriage and kids until they are older, but, in truth, these girls know that the guys won’t commit. What I hear from them is that it’s riduiculous to plan on marriage. Where’s the incentive for a girl to put off sex?
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@ Dalrock
When we discussed my ability to spot sluts (or lack there of) you said:
“If you don’t trust PUAs, trust my wife who sees the same trends Roissy outlines in the middle school girls she teaches at a private Christian school in Dallas. This can’t be a coincidence. Something has gone very wrong with our culture, and 99% of the population is oblivious to it. ”
As I’ ve said before, I’ve spent most of my adult life working with kids, including at private schools. I’m no stranger to what your wife sees, but I do see some very nice kids as well. I think her school environment, while seeming like the best possible place, is actually one of the worst. The combination of private and Christian correlates with entitled and rebellious. The kids you’d think would be among the nicest are actually usually the worst. BTDT, still have faith in kids–though obviously not all of them.
You said, “The way you will likely spot the slut winnowing her way into your son’s lives is by the pattern she will follow. She will likely show up fully hatched in her 30s (or just below) just like the author of the article. ”
Over the weekend, it occured to me that I’ve actually met this woman. She was briefly married to my cousin’s son. I met her and her hellion kids at a BBQ at my cousin’s. My reaction wasn’t, “You go, girl!” It was, “Here comes trouble.” I spotted it immediately, before my ((male) cousin did. He didn’t see trouble until she got pregnant, and then married and divorced his son, leaving my cousin and his wife to help raise the child of a bi-polar, non-custodial (Thank God!) mom. I think we arguing at cross purposes about some of this. I’m probably less quick to condemn, but I’m not as naive as you think I am.
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@ Dalrock
I said, “OTOH, I didn’t fall all in love with RV, who was “almost a virgin.” like you guys did. You all fell all over her. I told to shut her legs until her boyfriend married her didn’t fall all in love with RV, who was “almost a virgin.” like you guys did. You all fell all over her.”
You replied,”That discussion thread meant nothing to me. I swear I was thinking of you the whole time I was posting to her.”
That did make me laugh, but it missed my point. In my discussion with RV, who at 19 is sleeping with a boyfriend, I said that it was not in her best interest to do so. It was good motherly advice. It’s what I’d tell my own daughter if I had one. Not one of you defenders of public morality made any comments that would have supported that idea, despite the fact that many of you probably agreed with it. Instead, you all fawned when she echoed your own ideas about her proimary worth being her looks. Why? I think it was because she presented herself as this blog’s ideal girl–young, EE, hot and in perfect agreement with many of the major themes of this blog. Ironically, if she breaks up with the boyfriend, who interestingly enough was a skinny intellectual, someone many of you can identify with, she will be putting one foot on the road traveled by the 30 year old who wonders where all the good guys are. Because these days, one guy will inevitably lead to the next and next and next, by 30, it’s quite possible that RV will rack up quite a list. I find it odd that no one else here seemed realize that.
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@SDaed
“The thing is that a good woman boss is very good. A classic example of a woman with very good managerial skills (although I wouldn’t agree with all of her policies) would have been Margaret Thatcher.”
Yep, to get into upper level management a woman has to be more than good.
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@namae
“Beauty with brains, a deadly killer madam.”
As I recall, I suggested that to be true–particularly of my relationship to my husband when I admitted that his initial atraction to me might well have been based on looks, but that he stayed around for the brains. As I result, I was called a “cock carousel” rider, and he was called “a slave at home” and a mere beta provider. That, coupled with my saying that a couple should share some common interests and values, had folks fearing for my sons.
“After hundreds of scientific studies saying the same I believe that women are more empathetic, but sympathy and empathy aren’t necessarily the same. Compassion is a rare virtue; in women, rarer still.”
Hell yeah, look at RV’s comments to Nicole regarding her weight.
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@ Polymath
“lzollzllz indeed. Love the image of a mini-GBFM in a red halloween devil costume with lozlzllz crackling between his horns like static electricity while he jabs J’s shoulder with his pitchfork.”
Yeah, that is funny. Oddly enough, I’ve come to regard GBFM as one of the great moralists of our time. I’m not sure about his political and economic analyses, but I think he is right on when he talks about the de-souling of women through promiscuity.
Check out my comments above to Dalrock. I noticed that you too were among the many admirers until the discussion took a racist and anti-Semitic turn. You had no concerns about her current relationship? No worries about what she was doing to her market value?
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@J
Check out my comments above to Dalrock. I noticed that you too were among the many admirers until the discussion took a racist and anti-Semitic turn. You had no concerns about her current relationship? No worries about what she was doing to her market value?
Yes, … attractive 19 year-old blonde girls are rendered so much more attractive by rabid anti-semitism and racism. Though I don’t recall her actually saying anything specific about Jews.
Myah. Hot girls are hot girls, but worshipfulness is a sin against game any day.
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[…] advice for any man. Women don’t want you to remember personal details about them; at least, not until it matters, like when she’s hinting at marriage and she wants […]
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@ Gorbachev
“Yes, … attractive 19 year-old blonde girls are rendered so much more attractive by rabid anti-semitism and racism.”
Apparently so, for some people. Though I did notice that some folks dropped out of the conversation then.
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@J
In my discussion with RV, who at 19 is sleeping with a boyfriend, I said that it was not in her best interest to do so. It was good motherly advice. It’s what I’d tell my own daughter if I had one. Not one of you defenders of public morality made any comments that would have supported that idea, despite the fact that many of you probably agreed with it. Instead, you all fawned when she echoed your own ideas about her proimary worth being her looks.
While you were giving her motherly advice to marry, some clever fellow with a new blog was giving her fatherly advice to marry:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/texts-from-the-female-id/#comment-179186
And after reading her subsequent posts, does anyone here question that her valuing her own intelligence so strongly is a huge negative? She may be brilliant, but has the wisdom of a 19 year old. It strikes me that one reason IQ is more of a negative for women is just this. She will be out of prime marrying age for women by the time enough wisdom accumulates to make her high IQ bearable.
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@J
The combination of private and Christian correlates with entitled and rebellious. The kids you’d think would be among the nicest are actually usually the worst.
She had some really nice kids as well. Without going into too much detail, it is very evident that the rot started with the parents (divorced mothers, spineless fathers) and the church. I would include the school in my definition of the church because of how it views itself. If some of the kids were straying and the school had the moral compass to try to bring them back on track, I would agree with your prognosis: rich spoiled kids who think they have a free pass. But the bad behavior wasn’t limited to the kids. And the blind spot was only for women/girls. Men/boys who misbehave are still (fortunately) called out on this.
On the topic of the rot of Christianity, I’ve had some very interesting discussions with my father in law. He wants us to join a church. I’m open to the idea if I could find a good one, so I asked him to point one out. It shouldn’t be hard to find a good one in the bible belt, right? Then I asked him why he drives over 60 miles to a church out of town when there are so many in his own backyard (he lives in another state). He had to confess that 99% of the churches are fundamentally morally bankrupt. This really wounded him, which wasn’t my intention.
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@J
I see a lot of bravado about not wanting marriage and kids until they are older, but, in truth, these girls know that the guys won’t commit. What I hear from them is that it’s riduiculous to plan on marriage. Where’s the incentive for a girl to put off sex?
The truly fascinating thing about this particular bit of projection is that it is your core argument asserting that you aren’t guilty of projection.
When you described your reaction to the slut at the family gathering, I was about to award you with a “you go girl!”. Now I’m reaching for the Excedrin. No you-go-girl for you!
This isn’t to say that the girls of this generation aren’t actually pining away for marriage. But they keep telling you otherwise, and you won’t hear it. We could hook them up to a lie detector, and you would say the results weren’t notarized.
I guess the moment of truth will be when your son’s reach college grad age. If they struggle to find a nice sweet innocent freshman/sophmore girl looking for a different sort of guy/relationship, we’ll have a clearer idea of what the true story is. Is the lone beta provider pounced upon like raw meat in a piranha pond, or mostly ignored like Roissy predicts? I hope for my own son’s sake you are right.
For my daughter’s sake, I hope you are wrong. Either way, I still believe that good quality young men and women still exist. Our kids will just likely have to ignore the bad choices of their peers to find their counterparts.
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@Dalrock
“While you were giving her motherly advice to marry, some clever fellow with a new blog was giving her fatherly advice to marry: ”
I’ll let you off and take a look at the blog.
“And after reading her subsequent posts, does anyone here question that her valuing her own intelligence so strongly is a huge negative? ”
Um, yeah.
“She may be brilliant, but has the wisdom of a 19 year old. It strikes me that one reason IQ is more of a negative for women is just this.”
Having an attitude is an negative for anyone.
“She will be out of prime marrying age for women by the time enough wisdom accumulates to make her high IQ bearable.”
LOL
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J,
Sorry for the delay, been on vacation. To answer the two questions you posed me: Yes, and Yes. I would advise her re her current boyfriend “The main thing to avoid is continuing with him once you have determined either that he would not be a desirable mate, or that he does not want to make any commitments to you.”
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[…] Roissy said the following about this matter, so to speak. It is degree of trying too darn hard: http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/women-dont-want-you-to-remember-everything-about-them/ […]
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[…] Roissy: The key to correctly impressing women is to seem like you’re not impressing them at all. Even better is to seem like she is there to impress you, while still saying and doing those things that will subconsciously impress her. […]
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