The context: You’ve met a girl (not through social connections) and exchanged numbers. You and her went on a first date to a local dive a few days later, and it was good — comfortable rapport punctuated with sensual makeouts. A few more days pass and you call to arrange a second date. This time she invites you to join her at a public event where she will be in attendance along with many of her friends and friends of friends. It is an event that was long ago preplanned, and she is obligated to go. She says you’re welcome to invite some of your friends as well.
The quandary: Do you, or do you not, agree to meet her and, presumably, all her friends, at this event for a second date?
The crux: You are not a newb at the game. You understand that a “group” date will put the brakes on moving the seduction forward to a juicy climax of lustmaking. A girl is not likely to risk slut labeling by physically escalating with you, a new man, in the company of her friends. In the past, you would have balked at such a date suggestion, and offered her the opportunity to meet you another time when she is free of obligations, but you are not so easily dissuaded anymore by these kinds of traditional dating momentum killers. Your spirit flows with the essence of the rakes of seductions past and the life lessons of years of experience, and you sense opportunity where lesser men see obstacles.
What do you do?
The analysis that should be going through your head:
If you are confident in your social savviness, a chance to meet a date’s friends is a chance to work the room. In other words, it’s a chance to demonstrate higher value on the cheap. If you get bored of the usual first-second date routine, (and, truth be told, if you are even semi-decent at game you should be going on enough first and second dates that they get boring after a while, no matter what the girl is like), then a date where her friends will be present is a way to spice things up. You can stretch your abilities and challenge yourself by striking up conversations with strangers and making her girlfriends, and whatever guy friends she has, laugh and enjoy the pleasure of your company.
If you are less confident in your social skills, a group oriented date could ruin your chances. It’s bad enough when a one-on-one date goes cold; it’s irrevocably worse when a one-on-twenty “date” winds up with you the odd man out because you’re too shy or awkward to command a room and handle multi-threaded conversations without turning spergy. Nothing will lower your value faster than meeting a group of people and slowly disappearing into the wall, nursing your drink despondently, as everyone around you has fun.
But, high risk high reward. The flip side of crossing the event horizon of a massive DLV implosion is the chance to explode in a glorious DHV supernova. No guts no glory.
What about the motivations of the girl? You don’t know her well enough yet to get a sense of that, but you do know that her motivations aren’t necessarily bad. Sure, a girl may invite you on a group second date because subconsciously she is taking a step back from you, unsure if you are the knight of her 463 bullet point mental checklist. The “meet the friends” pre-sex date is often better termed the “meet the buffer zone” second date. If that is the case, you would be right to decline the date.
But a girl could just as easily like you so much that she blithely sees nothing wrong with the date+friends formula. She is happy to see you whenever an opportunity arises, whether on a conventional date or in the company of her friends. Remember that cute girls, being the discriminating sex accustomed to passively accepting approaches by men, have never had to learn in any great depth the reality of the sexual market and what constitutes a dating faux pas. They simply lack the awareness of how precarious the mating dance is for men, who must jump through many more hoops to get sexytime than women do (that is, until those women get older or fatter and their bond rating downgraded). If women were subjected to the same dating rules as men and understood how seemingly trivial social missteps can mean the difference between getting rejected or loved, I doubt many of them would be able to function at all in the dating scene, their egos relentlessly hammered into pulpy globules of self-doubt and anxiety.
There is another explanation for her motivations; she may like you and want to a) show you off to her friends, b) observe how her friends react to you (a form of preselection), and c) observe how well you handle her friends. All these motivations could issue from a desire to want to find justifications for her feelings of attraction to you. Many times girls are psychologically stampeded by their own growing attraction. A girl risks a lot more than men do in the relinquishment to arousal — pregnancy, for one. In the state of nature, pre-safe abortion and pre-widespread contraceptives, a surrender to womanly desire could spell disaster. A man has no equivalent worry. And so, in an effort to justify her desire and “make it OK” for her to continue surrendering to you, she will sometimes throw dating curveballs to test your mettle, ease her conscience, and pave the way for her arousal to find fulfillment. These curveballs can be banal, like the oddly suggested group date, or invidious, like the bitchy shit test.
In the final analysis, if your game is shaky, you may want to avoid any pre-sex group oriented dates as a rule. The risk is probably not worth the potential upside, and it won’t cost you much to simply decline in favor of a future one-on-one date in dim lighting. If, on the other hand, your social savvy is impressive and you’re confident that the girl is really into you, meeting her friends could be a fast track to intimacy.
******
UPDATE
What I did:
I told her I’d stop by. I went and chatted up her friends while she darted about catching up with them and performing event duties. She went out of her way to introduce me to many of her friends, which I thought was cool. And, as a nice bonus, one of her cute female friends flirted with me for quite a while, which wasn’t much of a surprise as girls tend to become more intrigued when they see you in the company of one of their girl friends. I left by myself a couple hours later, after I told her to enjoy the rest of the night with her friends. Our next date was very good.
of course it depends on the state of your game. i think i’d refrain from a solid commitment one way or the other. i’d tell her i had plans already but that i might stop by, and in the description of the plans i’d give them a loose quality to give myself a loophole/excuse for “stopping by.” when i did show up it would be later, and i’d focus a bit more on working the room than working the girl–or, i’d work the girl BY working the room. i think through that approach you can pretty much manage all contingencies and possibilities.
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I think you should go on the date, particularly given the scenario where you’re experienced in game. What a great opportunity to demonstrate your chops. The majority of the group of friends is likely to either like you, or dislike you in a way that’s attractive to her (e.g. “He seems like kind of an a-hole, but he’s fun.”). If you pass this huge shit test, you’re a virtual lock for a bang either that night or on the next date, armed with her freinds’ social proof. The price of success would be that she now probably sees you as “serious relationship” material, but then again, that sort of goes with the territory of proving yourself desirable. Deal with it. If you fail, you’re only one date in, so investment in the situation is low enough for it to be nothing more than a mild disappointment.
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Excellent analysis.
One comment: wouldn’t a daytime, group event mean she is trying to push you into the “Let’s take it slow, I want you to be my boyfriend” zone, as opposed to the “You are a dominating bad boy and I want you to fuck me whenever you want to” zone?
That is, the slow road to marriage vs. the no road to no-commitment sex.
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Second, damn.
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absolutely not go
you have much more to lose than you have to gain . also , as a general rule if you don’t know a woman that well it is never a good idea to go to a big event she invites you to
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because you have a first date under the belt, it is okay to try a group date. Show up late, bring a cool friend, and have a good time, and she’ll be impressed. Don’t even try to make a move on her in this situation. See if she’ll come to you while you work the room. And your friend can serve as a backup of someone to talk with in case her friends suck.
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You must have way more game then me, because I would never put that much thought into a hookup, unless, like you mentioned, for the challenge of it or there was a lot to be gained from becoming part of her social circle. If I were to go into that scenerio, I would have to have the right energy level and positive thoughts for that event before hand, or I would just flake or maybe even go drunk and act like a complete ass the whole time, but that would be a reason in itself then so nevermind reason #2 then. That’s just too much work for a hookup.
Otherwise, I’m not sure if I really want to try and game a girl who puts so much value into what her friends think of me. The fact that she’s not ready to give me the chance from meeting me makes me think something is off. Of course, if you are enough of a conman you could make her friends like you. So once again, it’s all about the level of your game and your particular motivations.
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If she would consider sleeping with you then she made up her mind on the first date (or most likely before then), and this small test should be easy enough for you to handle. If you can’t handle it, then you’ve got to get back to the basics of friendship.
If she is still on the fence about you, then you have to go to this event. There’s the real threat of too much time passing. You need to man-up and show that you’re comfortable with her around other people. It’s obviously not the ideal situation, but you’ve got to take it.
-ABS
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ABS, how is giving her the upper hand manning-up?
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I would not hang out with her friends prior to inserting my penis in her snatch. Date declined.
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“You and her”? What the hell, man.
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It depends if you’re good at vibing with people. I’m pretty good at it so I wouldn’t mind coming out for the gathering.
And if you’re overanalyzing it by wondering your pros/cons, then you’re giving the girl too much value already.
It’s just a gathering, come out and enjoy yourself.
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If just going for the notch, avoid this as it shows she wants more than the slap and tickle. If you’re into her and see her as a relationship prospect it has a huge upside. If you carry yourself as the socially savvy gent you are, this is a huge opportunity to display high status. Not that preselection by her circle of single harpies is required, but it will probably lube up the fast track to pound town.
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Definitely wouldn’t go. There is a strong probability that her fat friends will be there, dateless. Upset at not receiving attention from men still sober enough to form a sentence, they will convince date to go the bathroom with them and badmouth you.
I just don’t see how you couldn’t spin a scenario with the same payoff and much lower risk, a physical 2 person date, i.e. mountain climbing (sheer, not hiking) or a strenuous bike ride.
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Unless you haven’t fucked her yet, I would avoid environments that you have the least amount of control in and that is an environment with her friends.
Among groups of female friends you got the following:
– The female hater: the single girl/s that get jealous of her girlfriends when they hookup and will try to sabotage her relationship because misery loves company. There is nothing worse then the female cockblocker especially when she is a good friend.
– The beta orbiter – the “male friend” that pretends he enjoys his role as a friend but deep down is scheming to get into her pants. If he sees you as a potential threat he will attempt to ruin your chances.
– The Alpha acquaintance – The guy that she may see as a potential future hookup or he already fucked her and now they are “just good acquaintances. In this kind of scenerio he might attempt to AMOG you and gain the upper hand.
Therefore as a man facing this potential volatile situation, you have to be confident that if something happens to you with any of the following scenerio’s that you can still take her home the very night and fuck her brains out. If she already had an orgasm with you then you are in already in a much secured position as opposed as being the guy she “potentially” want to sleep with.
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I definitely agree with your conclusion Roissy.
I also learned something from you, and that is, to be patient and not be overanxious to jump her bones…when I’m in public with a girl and her friends (even if I’ve banged her before) I downplay the PDA…I try to engage all her friends while being while less deferential to her. (i.e. I’m super nice with her friends, but a tiny bit aloof to her).
Limiting PDA in public increases the sexual tension when you F the shit out of her later in your private den.
Btw I have a very interesting question, when looking for an LTR. what looks should a man aim for? should a man aim to snag the hottest women he can get?
I’m quite tall , fit and good looking (to a certain degree, I aint a model) and I noticed that with women who are average looking, it is so easy to get them in bed, by the 2nd date max they are on their knees. Not so with the highly attractive women.
However, several studies have shown that women who are quite attractive are more likely to trade up or cheat because of the options they have…if that is true, then why average looking women are so much easier to get in the sack? I think it is foolish to think that average looking women are more “safe” than attractive women. an average women can “break” more easily if a more attractive/alpha suitor proposed casual sex to her.
I’ve met many guys who say that when they want a GF they want her to be attractive but not too attractive as to turn heads because they dont want to constantly have to compete with all the other males for her attention.
However, like it or not, other women judge a man based on the quality of his women. an average chap with an attractive women seems more of a catch than an attractive guy with no game who settles for an average chick.
so what is the optimal “look” that a man should aim for when wanting an LTR?
Best!
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The context: You’ve met a girl (not through social connections) and exchanged numbers.
Isn’t that a bit advanced for most of the virtual-Gamers here? 🙂
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Guy becomes the only man on campus at female college and still can’t get laid. Calls the girls a ‘bunch of whores’ and writes a long rant on the ‘fuck my life’ forum.
http://jezebel.com/5416119/oh-yeah-male-student-calls-wellesley-women-bunch-of-whores
Roissy was right, it doesn’t matter what the male-female ratio is. Girls go after alpha guys and ignore the rest. Even if they themselves are ugly. I remember a commenter from Dartmouth saying the 5s and 6s at that college act like 9s and 10s.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/is-college-a-poon-nirvana/
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This is an LTR test.
It’s risky, and potentially volatile, but well worth the effort. You likely won’t encounter a hostile audience here. No chick serious about a guy would throw him into a snake pit. She also wouldn’t throw you into LJBF zone after a couple of make-outs, by inviting to meet her friends. It doesn’t follow.
Chat up the boys, game & flirt with the girls, and her panties will be wet in no time.
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@Rivelino
This is the main concern for me also. I’ve been in some relationships and the girls have really fallen deeply in love with me, and the break-up was always pretty hard for them, leaving them heart-broken and all. I don’t want to do this any more, at least until I find a girl that completely fascinates me and that I would consider marrying (with a prenup, of course).
Roissy, how can we, the unwilling serial heart-breakers, make women aroused, horny and make them wanna shag us, but not make them fall in love? Projecting bad-boy, rock-star image, I predict your answer, but doesn’t that rule out any kind of bonding/rapport on dates? Then, there is nothing more I can rely upon than being tall, dark and handsome, or having enough social proof that I show my dominance on others as well (being dominant to her might do it, but that doesn’t differentiate me from other guys enough, a lot of guys can be dominant with a girl…)…
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I don’t know what you guys are smoking I would go anyhow. Unless I have some other chick to have sex with that night I’d go have fun. Maybe that’s just me , ABS, and mavtraveler, but I have no issue with meeting new people. Fuck it, I love it. Especially if your game is on point why not go out and be the fucking man to her girl and guy friends?
I hope that people start switching to a natural game where you are the best version of you at all times instead of this I’m the best version of me at only the advantageuos situations. I agree man-up and do the group date unless you have something else to get into that night. There is one huge price which I have had hit me though. If her friends like you too much. They’ll fucking love you and when you just pump and dump you are the scorn of the shit corn for dogging their girl. So…I’ve learned to either make sure the girl knows the situation of whatever I’m looking for, or, I make sure to be likeable but with a slight distance, so they think it’s ok for me to see their friend, but they don’t necessarily know me or have a definite feel for me.
But yeah even if your game is wack and you’re afraid you’ll mess up. Guess what, go out there fuck up and learn, that way next time you find a girl who you actually would want to go out on a group date with you know how to handle yourself. Nothing gained from nothing tried.
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I had nearly the exact situation you described happen to me.
I had a breif 1st date with a very nice HB from DC. A few days later, she called me to invite me to a Christmas party that night, at an embassy she did work with.
My first thought was to say no because I was dressed for work, and not a gala party. I had the regular work dress shirt, and tie, but not anything of quality for an embassy party.
I said yes and met her around 7pm. We walked from the subway to the embassy, maybe holding hands.
We get to the embassy and she is recognized by nearly everyone there, including the ambassador. We go inside and munch on foods and enjoy upscale drinks. Somewhere during the night, she excused herself and mingled with friends. So, i mingled with everyone I could, just letting her do her thing.
About a half hour later, I met up with and became friends with the second coolest guy there (me being the coolest).
After a half hour more, my date came and got me. We went to her place where she consumed me sexually.
She later told me that the way I handled myself at that party turned her on so much that she could not hold back.
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For me it would depend on the event. If it were something I might enjoy, then I’d go otherwise I’d pass. I’m not going to go hang out with with her and her friends, or anyone for that matter, at some place where I don’t want to be.
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It depends what public event it is. If it isnt something i’m interested in I wouldn’t go. If it was something I was really interested in I would go and not treat it as a date. As long as your really sociable, have fun and dont “cling” to the girl you’ll be alright. My overall vibe would be more of i’m interested in the event and having a good time then i am in trying to impress this women.
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“It depends if you’re good at vibing with people. I’m pretty good at it so I wouldn’t mind coming out for the gathering.”
Very true. As a natural introvert, I find carrying on with a large group of people for a couple hours to be several degrees more difficult than one-on-one banter with a girl. It’s simply fucking tiring.
I had something similar to this with a girl who asked me to go on a trip with her and her firends. I went because it was basically guaranteed sex and I wanted to “get out of my comfort zone.” Except when you’re trying to juggle the complexities of game, getting out of your comfort zone by throwing in a geeky male friend, a bitchy female friend, one hotel room and a foreign locale into the mix is simply too much.
Definitely an advanced move only. If you feel stone-cold confident in handling the fastballs of regular game, step up to the plate and take this knuckleball.
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If your game is a little weak, tell her you have plans that day and schedule your “second date” some at the end of the week and take her to some bar. You should know what to do from there.
If you’re confident in your ability to game, go to her event. When you get there, use the “let’s you and her fight” game. Take home whichever girl you choose.
Wald
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100% I would go to her party, on my own, and spend time with her while letting her friends want me
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Offtopic but relevant:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10419076.stm
Women freezing eggs waiting for “Mr Right”.
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The proper response to this scenario depends in part on the effort it takes you to attend the event. If the event is in an inconvenient location, requires formal dress or is otherwise a hassle of any kind, forget it. You haven’t sexed this girl yet and she hasn’t risen to high on your priority list. Putting forth too much effort to attend would send a try-hard signal.
If the event is at a convenient location close to stuff you might do that night anyway, then sure. You should frame it as “Awww that’s so cute, you want me to meet your friends already. Ok, I’m doing X that night but I’ll stop by sounds like fun.” Say with with casual calibration.
How you conduct yourself at the event is critical. Come fashionably late, alone or maybe with one presentable friend if you’re going out later. Say hi to her and meet her friends. Mingle and laugh and have a good time without paying attention to whether she’s near you or not. Forget all about gaming the girl — by having a good time you *are* gaming the girl. The key here is social proof. You must be seen to be the social, likable and successful guy you are. Run some light game on one of her friends to stir her tingle.
After you’ve worked the room, had some fun and created an impression, LEAVE. Do not stay longer. Leave on a high point. Tell her thanks for the invite, you had fun and met some great people, now you’re going to X. Do not invite her to leave with you unless she signals she’s ready to be sexed.
If you have behaved correctly, her friends will ask who is that cool guy. The friend you ran game on will make her jealous and territorial. This will all supercharge your value and lubricated her vag with the heavy-duty lube of social-proof. Enjoy condomless sex.
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lozzllzlzlz
i hate group dates unless there are the chix with their panties off lzozlzllzozozlzzl and after we get down and good and i go sploogalooogaloogs then we can go bowling where alphas in bolwing shirts can hit on them lzozlzlz but until i get my cumpuppance i only do group dates in no pants lzozlzlzlzl
“In the final analysis, if your game is shaky, you may never want to avoid any pre-group sex oriented dates as a rule. The risk is probably not worth the potential upside, and it won’t cost you much to simply decline in favor of a future one-on-one lotsa cocka in dim lighting. If, on the other hand, your social savvy is impressive and you’re confident that the girl is really into you, meeting her friends in their panties and their bras off lzozlzlzl and pnatiez cummin off could be a fast track to intimacy. lzozlzl yah fast.”
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It’s so obvious I can’t believe anyone else hasn’t suggested it:
BRING A DATE!
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I’m learning that there really aren’t many rules to this. More like guidelines, that all depend on how good you are, and what the girl is up to. It may be better to go, and do your best to work the room. Gotta learn at some point, and can only do that through experience. She’ll be the guinea pig for your social-proofing trial and error
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If you’re decent at winning people over, there isn’t much reason to think about not going, unless of course you have some other stuff going on. Why not go? New experience, bring a person you’ll have a good time with no matter where you’re at, make sure this person is socially savvy also, people judge the company you keep also. If you win her friends over huge DHV, if you have fun, cool, if it’s weak, bounce.
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azuzuru nailed it. The only change I would make is get one or two of the cooler guys there to leave the event and go with you.
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And yet another article confirms Roissy’s understanding of the sexual marketplace:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10419076.stm
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My escalation is so weak. The situation in this post happens to me all of the time and I never knew that it was an impediment to getting physical.
Does anyone have escalation tips? I’m going on a lot of dates, seeing a number of women, but, like I said, my escalation is ridiculously weak.
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i think greatbooksformen is one of the finest writers working today.
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Easy shit test, no don’t meet her and arrange to meet for drinks another day. You will get dissected both physically and mentally, if the posse hates you then it will lead to public execution, you will be defenseless since haven’t fucked her yet. She will not defend you and side with her friends, and will not pickup or return your call ever.
She wants her friends to tell her what is wrong with you, I’ll assume the friends will probably consist of her girlfriends and one gay friend.
Why should you meet another day for drinks? So she won’t bring her friends along. You should only meet her friends once you have fucked and she likes you enough to defend your skin. You will also be “in” with the posse since she will brag to them how great you are. This is will lead to jealously and cheating with her best friend/friends. Probably easiest lays due to social proof.
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@ Brad
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10419076.stm
A pretty incredible bit of false equivalency here—but par for the course, I’m afraid. Yes, men have fertility issues as they get older, but there is simply no comparison between the level of drop-off regarding male fertility and female fertility with age. It’s not even close—though you’d never know it by reading this quote.
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Above is my game answer. Personally since I’m a dick swinning silver back not give a shit and go in guns blazing. Especially my interest in the chick is marginal, I will pull a Tank Turner… My best friend’s girl style.
I always like to make a lasting impression. Good or bad depends on the mood. This would be an example of shooting the pussy out of orbit cuz she’s a cunt.
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No group dates before you have swooped her.
Even then, you are better off not going.
Unless, of course, its a venue you have locked down completely.
Still, you run the risk of having her fall to hard for you.
If that is the goal, go. If not, don’t.
– MPM
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You’ve got to stretch to get better. Even if your game is weak, going to the party is low risk for two reasons: you have nothing invested in her, and she is not in your social network. If you screw it up, who cares? NEXT.
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Context is everything. The obvious impression is to see declining this “date” as some kind of challenge to your Alpha status, or a failure for lacking the wherewithal to step up and Game the room. However, the devil is in the details; what is the event? Is it work related, is it a social environment where your knowledge of the purpose of it is next to nothing? It’s all fine and good to see any occasion as an opportunity to DHV, but there will always be circumstances where you’ll be at a disadvantage.
I think it takes much more Game acumen to decline this “date” than to follow through in the hopes it will open up an uncertain avenue to DHV. It’s just as easy to argue DHV by declining the date. When confronted with this type of “safe date” in the past it’s been my experience that women are acutely aware of the position they’re putting you in by expecting you to enter their world. She should be entering YOUR world first, and be damn happy to be there. This is her attempt to control the frame by having you qualify for HER world. Unacceptable.
Women are the perceptive sex, Men are the analytical sex. For all the handwringing and forethought a guy puts into considering his options in this scenario, no woman would think or appreciate the implications of it. Remember, women’s shit tests are almost always an unconscious process. I’m sure the woman in this example has no clue she even testing. That said however, women will use exactly this kind of “safe date” as a filibustering technique to put off a guy with whom she became physical with, but later got buyers remorse from. The fact she would suggest that you invite some of your own friends along (to keep you company?) for the event would only reinforce my assessment that this is a filibuster / safe-date.
In the end I think you would gain more Alpha cred by declining and giving her the perception of your being in demand and with a life of your own. If her IL was sufficient to begin with you only increase your value with your absence.
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Maybe I’m just a cocky bastard, but I would definitely go. To be honest, part of my motivation would be to scope out some of her friends, who are hopefully hot. The fact that she’s invited me has given me at least her partial stamp of approval in their eyes, so the first few hurdles have already been cleared. My experience is that new opportunities often present themselves in these situations.
Girls often wish they had their friends’ boyfriends, even second date boyfriends. The best part of this is that since it’s so early in the “relationship” and we are not yet to the “serious” stage, if something did happen with one of her friends, I wouldn’t even have to pretend to feel guilty about it.
But I’m guessing that’s not what this test is about, so assuming I actually like this girl and want to be a good boy and keep my eyes on the straight and narrow, I’d still go. I usually do well with impressing the friends, so I have no worries there. (I always assume I’m being invited because she wants to show me off. Whether I’m right or wrong doesn’t matter, that attitude serves me well.)
I’d bring a friend, since there is always the possibility I will wind up being completely out of place when it turns out this is a Twilight fan club party. This friend must be at least semi-alpha, by the way. Nothing will kill my chances faster than a friend who looks like he’s from the Math Club, thereby making it look like *I’m* in the Math Club too.
The other advantage to having a friend with me (besides making it so I won’t feel awkward if there’s *nobody* there I can have a conversation with) is that then the temptation for her to drag me along with her the entire time will be gone. (There’s nothing more pathetic than a guy being dragged around at a party by a new girlfriend.) After all, I can’t just leave my friend bored, so we’ll need to head off on our own a lot. This will make her wonder what I might be up to while I am out of her sight.
In fact, since my friend is single, naturally he’ll be on the prowl. She’ll understand, of course, that being the good friend that I am, I’ll need to be his wingman. Which means she’s going to see me running game. With permission! Unless we . . . errrrr, my friend strikes out miserably, this will raise my value even more as she sees her friends laughing at out jokes and making eyes with him/us.
Soooo . . . would I go? Yep. Not to sound arrogant, but I’m not sure I’d advise guys to do the same, by the way. I’ve always been good at working a room, so I’m speaking strictly for myself here.
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One more “moving part” to the deal:
She also might have some friends worth meeting.
If, for instance, she has a friend that is the Casino Manger at Wynn, or has a friend that owns an E-tab factory in Amsterdam, it might be worth going on those grounds alone.
– MPM
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I’m good in public social situations because of business experience, so this is an easy one, no real downside for me. On the other hand, if she had asked me to go to a non-public event with some of her friends, I’d need to make a tough judgement call whether it could be a pile-on where everyone is CBing. If that’s a possibility, better to build more rapport with a private 2nd date.
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I think as lot of it depends on who she is and what her friends are like. If she’s hot and her friends are more down to earth plain jane, then by all means, go for it. They’ll usually tell their friend “I’d hit that” and their approval and envy will fuel your date’s desire for you all the more. If her friends are a bunch of fake boob, collagen injected, extension wearing succubi, stay away. They will constantly be sizing you up and ready to slather on the hate @ a moment’s notice.
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General attitude:
It’s totally context-dependent.
Always date any chance for a date. Don’t worry about negatives. If you have decent game, you should be able to play any social situation.
Friends; Excellent chance for social proof. You couldn’t ask for a better chance.
If it’s cock-block time, play it. If it’s meet the friends time, play it.
Be prepared to leave early; if you can get her to leave early with you and go somewhere else, all the better. If you’re playing it well, let them take a few trips to the bathroom to chat it up. If one or more friends doesn’t like you, play the room.
Her friends may act out of jealousy or spite, but unless they’re total cunts, you should survive.
The social proof is a gift.
I’d say yes, especially if it was convenient and I had an out. It’s like phone conversations: If you don’t need to hang around, and you can’t draw her away (which would be ideal), then you can leave early.
There’s no reason to be afraid of her friends.
Roissy, how can we, the unwilling serial heart-breakers, make women aroused, horny and make them wanna shag us, but not make them fall in love? Projecting bad-boy, rock-star image, I predict your answer, but doesn’t that rule out any kind of bonding/rapport on dates? Then, there is nothing more I can rely upon than being tall, dark and handsome, or having enough social proof that I show my dominance on others as well (being dominant to her might do it, but that doesn’t differentiate me from other guys enough, a lot of guys can be dominant with a girl…)…
Falling in love easily is an illusion for men and women. It’s chemical. Sex has a huge influence on it, but it’s actually not necessary. You can’t stop it: it’s a force of biology.
Just don’t worry about it too much.
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@Riff Dog
Maybe I’m just a cocky bastard, but I would definitely go. To be honest, part of my motivation would be to scope out some of her friends, who are hopefully hot.
Definitely good reason to go. Who knows who you’ll hit it off with.
I say go, in general. You can play any situation.
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Timely post, got invited to watch a World cup game at bar by girl with her friends. Went, talk shit and got drunk with her guy friends then bounced. She called asking why i left without saying goodbye. I assured her it was’nt a big deal, besides her friends invited me to catch the next match and i’m sure we would run into each other. I topped it off by claiming i could’nt chit chat and ridiculed her game prediction. The outcome, the next match she’s saving me a seat next to her.
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SRSLY.
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Don’t meet her friends for 3 months.
There’s no point. You want alone time with the girl. You’re either trying to fuck her or marry her. Neither of which involve her friends. Don’t introduce her to your friends either. They’ll fuck it up.
One awkward conversation with a friend of hers, and date-girl get the “no” look from her friend. One stupid comment by her friend and all of a sudden you don’t like date-girl as much anymore.
And how did this happen anyways? Man in charge. Man arrange date. Did she decline your original date invite without an immediate re-schedule? Fuck dat shit.
You are putting yourself in a position of lower status. You are the prince. She comes to your ball. Not the other fucking way around.
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Hey LILGRL, welcome back and Congratulations!
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Working under the presumption this girl is hot, you gotta think positively and go…. as long as the event actually sounds fun and is not a true inconvenience.
She wouldn’t have invited you if she didn’t want you there –> she had an easy escape. Always have fun and think positively. No doubts, No regrets.
Bring a cool friend –> gives you an escape, could up your value, it increases your fun, and hot girls have hot friends so it won’t be a hard sell to convince a friend to come.
1 on 1 dates can get boring –> A fun event lets her see you in action, not just talking. Also, a shared experience with someone is what separates you from the rest of the pack.
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This really depends on context and the nature of the social situation. A girl once did this to me on the first date. First we went and did the stuff I suggested (guns, red meat), then we met her pals for a drink. It was pretty natural and one thing flowed from the other, and her friends thought I was great; yep, I scored on the first date.
If the second date situation is a fun party kind of situation, and her friends are decent people, it could be great fun. If it’s some kind of obnoxious yawn fest or her pals are jackasses: not so much fun.
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Down side to inviting a charmer to meet your friends? When they all start coming after him to steal him away. I found this a bigger problem than getting friends’ opinions. Surprised witj today’s sexual market no one is bringing that up. I need to write a post on crazy strategies girls have used in intersocial competition.
One time I decided to throw a Guy to the sharkettes (some of my most playette friends) for entertainment to see how he’d handle it. Bad mistake, I hid him after that… now that he’s my fiance its all clear, don’t have friends that evil.
. Well. I hope not
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this is a layup.. you go, and you invite some of your friends – each of whom is also a hot girl that thinks you are the bomb.
Raise the bar roissy, this one is no test at all.
If you balk at this kind of date, you should go back to the dangelo porn routine.
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I’ve only taken three men to meet friends early on in the dating game. All three of them had potential from my point of view for ltr’s. One I took just to show him off. Another I took for my friends’ point of view and the last one whom I’m still seeing was for a combination of the two. The one I took to show off wouldn’t have mattered to me what my friends thought, I was over attracted. The second one, it did. He was a doctor with an introverted personality who I tried hard to love but my friends recognized I’d die from lack of stimulation and helped me to come to the conclusion it wouldn’t work. The last one (final hopefully) is well liked by friends and family and is fun to show off. He is a social guy however and I don’t think he worried even a tiny bit about the impression he would make. Lack of confidence kills.
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polymath — thanks, but the “wb” is short-lived as i will be leaving the country for the next week or so 🙂
lsb — srsly. homegirls gotta be smart about who they invite to meet the chicas.
everyone else — my actual thoughts on the situation: i don’t really see how you can screw this up. worst case scenario, you’re a freaking weirdo and you fail — whatever, you’re not invested AT ALL in the situation — best case scenario, you win over the entire party with your charming debonair 5k177z, normal case scenario, she is more comfortable with you because she sees (through the eyes of her friends) that you are not a serial killer.
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I agree with those that said it depends on what the “public event” is. I’d probably go – just mixing well, having a good time, and being cool is enough to move the ball forward, depending on the event and the personality of the girl. Plus you’d be able to call the next date – totally plan it your way.
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You go, wearing the Borat mankini
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I’d be non-committal but in the end not show up unless the event really interested me.
I feel fairly confident that my game is good enough to win over her friends, but if the reason she’s inviting me is because she likes me enough to show me off, then she’ll like me even more when I don’t show up.
Doing a costs-benefits analysis, I’d say this date isn’t worth it. If what you care about is poon maximization, then you’re better off taking a different girl out that night and making the 2nd date with this girl under your terms, not hers.
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– Agree to go.
– Invite one friend, but not just any friend; he has to be sufficiently savvy but not to the point where he’ll go to lengths to outduel you, but also not the type of guy who will embarass you in front of this prospect and her friends.
In other words, a good friend who has decent (at worst) game that you trust. This isn’t a venue for Rico Suave the overexeuberant girl snake, or Omega McBeta the no-game having fool. Middle ground.
– You and buddy get dressed sharp, not ‘I’m trying really hard to impress you!’ sharp, but ‘Yeah…I guess I do look pretty good…’ sharp. Maybe a jakcet and slacks and a shirt blown open with no tie or links, if it’s a semi-formal or business-casual affair.
If the first date was at some dive she’ll be very impressed if you look good.
– Arrive, introduce buddy, talk to some of her friends and family. Make sure you meet a few people that you’ll remember and that your friend works the room a little as well. After maybe half an hour or so, yank the girl aside for a drink (assuming drinks are being served). If it’s a fundraiser of some type, make sure you give a little.
– At some point during the drink, buddy comes up and says that ‘he has to go’ and provides a reason that doesn’t make him look like a sketchball. Rehearse beforehand if necessary.
– Finish your drink and tell your girl that you have to go too, when she asks why tell her its because you drove and he’s on the other side of town.
– Feign remorse, but tell her you’ll call her later, throw in some kino and only kiss if she instigates. Say goodbye to her family and friends and tell them that you’re sorry that you have to duck out but that it was nice meeting them.
– Go get some beers with your buddy and have a laugh at the SWPLness of the event. Get a bit away though, don’t be a bobo and grab drinks at the spot next door, that’s getting sloppy.
– Call her later that night, tell her that buddy’s dog/kid/wife/house is fine, and that in spite of the afternoon being cut short you had fun. Tell her you liked whoever you met (throw in a few details about them) and were glad that you came out. Ask her what she’s up to, if she says nothing, tell her she should come by and watch a flick.
– If you get her machine, leave a short message that said you had fun meeting her friends and that it’s too bad you had to cut it short (not ‘I’m sorry I had to cut it short’!), but your friend’s dog/wife/kid/house/job is okay and for her to call you when she gets this.
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@LIL – agreed, welcome back, don’t be a stranger sweetie!
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@lovelysexybeauty
One time I decided to throw a Guy to the sharkettes (some of my most playette friends) for entertainment to see how he’d handle it. Bad mistake, I hid him after that…
The only time I was actually in a situation like this in any way, I ended up going on several dates and banging the original date’s friend. We really hit it off. We saw each other for about a month. But the situation wasn’t exactly like this one.
I ended up charming her friends and befriending one of them. I went over well. The date and I did hook up eventually, but not before I had clicked with her social group. Long after the girl and I had had parted ways, I was still connected into the social group. Not what was expected.
now that he’s my fiance its all clear, don’t have friends that evil.
. Well. I hope not
You never know. I’ve heard some pretty bad tales from women.
I participated in at least two. Charming guys can be hard to find.
Situation:
Meet woman through work associate in Korea. She’s very attractive (let’s say 7.5). Dresses nicely. Cutest girl in the company. There’s chemistry. I’m as brazen as shit by that point, so I invite her out to a bar. She demures all day; then approaches me at night and says she’d love to go to this place she knows. We go, and over soju and pork bone soup and panchan we escalate to casual physical contact. But nothing more. Not enough time.
So we arrange to see each other on the weekend. She’s a nice girl, obviously just intrigued by a foreigner. She looks straightforward to get to a hotel (no work here), just a little but of LMR expected.
Weekend comes: Saturday all day at a nice location outside. She’s there with her friends, and has invited me along. I go for the social proof, and score some serious DHV by knowing oodles about various subjects her friends are interested in. One of her friends (same level of overall hotness, really) who’s just come back from studying abroad chats me up. By the end of the evening we’re super friendly. By Sunday night we’re in a hotel and start a torrid fling that lasts for several weeks.
Original girl never even got close. She did seem a little surprised, but she’d kept a good clean distance. I never found out if she was disturbed or disgruntled.
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/06/25/tf.women.say.no.marriage/index.html
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To all the ones who think you can show “social proof” you are missing the point of this. He’s going there to get a chance to screw her brains out, not make friends with everyone. He’s not going to have any social proof. He’s just going to either be the nice little boy who tagged along or the dirty cad. The dirty cad is fine if some of her slut friends are there, otherwise it’s a wash.
@the dude
EXACTLY.
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@LILGIRL
It’s already been established on this very blog, in fact, that SERIAL KILLER could up the chances.
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obstinance works — touche, my friend. touche.
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what is this, the remedial class?
if you are
(a) good enough to play her against her friends, flitting back and forth between them in what amounts to an auction attraction with you as the auctioneer,
AND
(b) enough of a MAN, relative to the other chumps who will attend the event, that you’ll be able to one-up them in a disinterested, effortless way (or, at worst, enough of a man not to be shown up in such a way)
AND
(c) sufficiently aware of her social class, and of the unwritten rules of the particular milieu in which the event is being held, that you won’t make fatal mistakes (such as being too physically imposing / not classy enough, if you’re a lowlife and she’s an uptown girl) —
then go, young man, go.
no downside, really, in that case.
—
with a girl who’s a long-term prospect — or, hell, with a girl you can even stand to hang out with, once the afterglow has dissipated — you can take your little three-date rule, crumple it up, and throw it into the fire.
at a higher level, YOU are the one who’s making HER wait.
and if you make her wait more than three dates, or five, or … however many*, then just wait to see what sort of fireworks you’ll get when you finally let HER have what SHE wants.
and oh, the things you’ll be able to make her do at that point. she’ll be eating out of your hand.
*while you fuck other girls on the side, of course.
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Lilgrl has a :
2 Face
6 Body
= 4 Overall
Anoukange has a :
5 Face
8 Body
= 6.5 Overall
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also, the biggest problem i see here is that you guys are too concerned with short-circuiting the seduction process — trying to get the woman into bed too fast, without building up the slow burn. the problem, of course. is that this almost always leads to a relatively lifeless, boring fuck experience, unless, for whatever reason, she has already been chasing you for some time.
if you already have pussy on the side, it’s better to reframe, and make HER chase — the more you prolong the chase, the better and more cathartic the fucking is going to be for her (and thus for you).
ironically, you can sometimes get the best results from making a really slutty girl wait; these girls have absolutely the least experience with delayed gratification. they don’t delay gratification at all to themselves or to alpha players, and they aren’t struggling with anything to delay gratification to beta chumps who want to bankroll them.
if you’re the first person in a slutty girl’s entire life — including daddy, previous boyfriends, etc. — to cram some delayed gratification down her throat and give her the female equivalent of blue balls, you can make her do some very, um, nice things for you.
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plank grows fenugreek on his windowsill.
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simply no way i can make it, bot with a new bass player trying out and all. scotts going crazy and we need a backup ready asap
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If you’re going to have fun, go. Just know that you may have to amplify your personality and perform.
If it’s not fun for you, don’t go. You can get many of the benefits of the event by inviting her to a gathering of *your* social circle instead.
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Only way to do this, and do it well is to show up with attractive friends that are naturally charming.
Don’t go stag- and don’t go with socially awkward people.
If you don’t have cool friends, don’t even bother to go.
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I agree with the G man. I would not go on a group date until after sex.
You should start all relationships as casual. That means that you don’t put that much importance on her or do things that would communicate to her that this is moving toward an exclusive relationship. Meeting her friends is boyfriendy. On the second date? No way. Maybe not ever.
Look at it this way. If you were marginally interested in this girl, just willing to show up in order to hit it with her, would you go out to meet her friends? No way. So why act like she’s more than after you’ve only made out with her?
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@Plank
Don’t worry you have no chance with LILGRL anyways, I would say she has a 0.8 hip-ratio, BMI 20-25 and under 30. She also has a decent personality, interests and fashion sense. Combined score of 7-8.3 depends on your personal preference toward Asians. Giving her anything under 5 (average) shows you have no experience gaming/traveling in Asia. It is so hard to find a girl with both decent body and face. She could model in countries like China, enough said. If you used the LA scale, she should be a solid 6-6.5, but LA is LA. Land of master fakers.
@ G Manifesto
Another reason to is if the venue is catered toward getting laid/consuming a lot of coke such as playboy mansion, magazine/film after party, swinger or Roman style orgy party. Nothing sweetens the deal like the promise of her Victoria Secret/model friends being there. 😛
A advice to newbs, if you’re unsure bring a gay wingman. He is a master at social suaveness and is instant social proof. He can perform other functions such as taking care of cock blocks and establishing deep rapport with your victim.
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be well groomed (stand out), connect with everyone, make sure to keep beautiful girls in company for a potential jealousy plotline. Be enthusiastic and humours with the girls and chilled with the guys.
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“A advice to newbs, if you’re unsure bring a gay wingman. He is a master at social suaveness and is instant social proof. He can perform other functions such as taking care of cock blocks and establishing deep rapport with your victim.”
agreed. but if you are truly a newb also bring midgets. min 3-4. they will add to the merriment and also make you appear taller. if you cant find midgets you can try bringing chimps, just make sure they are well groomed chimps.
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OT Beta of the Month nominee:
http://www.slate.com/id/2257149/
Dear Prudence,
I have been married for almost a decade to my high-school sweetheart. A few years into my marriage, I had an affair with a colleague. My husband found out, and we decided to work things out and stay together. Then I found out I was pregnant. As hard as it was to know I was carrying another man’s child, my husband stood by me, and he’s been an amazing father. My question is, do we ever tell our son, now 3 years old, that my husband, his “daddy,” isn’t his biological father? His biological father has kindly always offered to do whatever I wanted in terms of what I tell my son. I worry constantly about my son growing older and learning of his paternity in some way. Are my husband and I better off with a lie of omission or telling a terrible truth?
—Always Worried
Dear Always,
I wish you had explained why you know that your husband could not be the biological father of your child. If you were having sex with both your husband and lover, in the absence of a DNA test, there should be some ambiguity to your son’s paternity. Even if you’re certain there’s not, you, your husband, and your son know who the father of your child is in every way that matters. So, please, stop the constant worry. First of all, your son is 3 years old. If you decide someday to tell him, that day is a long way off. In the meantime, you have to lift this moral shroud you’re living under. Having a mother who is in a perpetual state of anxiety and guilt will be more damaging to your son than whatever he finds out about his origins. I think people have a right to know such things. But as I imagine you one day having the “I have something to tell you” conversation with your son, I wonder what for. Sure, he would be finding out the truth, but it’s such an undermining and unnecessary truth that I don’t see the point. There’s a possibility that some blood test or medical crisis might raise questions, but I bet most people go through life not knowing their own, let alone their parents’, blood type. And if such a crisis happens, then you’ll just have to own up. I think you should tell the biological father (and you’re positive about this?) that your husband is the only father your son knows, and all of you want to keep it that way.
—Prudie
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Unless it’s someone who you are really into and could easily see having a LTR with, I can’t see why a guy would want to take the risk of encountering the possible problems that could result from a large gathering.
Based on the description of the first date, you’re probably going to close with her at the end of any decent second date anyway. Making things more complicated first simply has a lot more downside than upside (since you’re at the point where you’re not going to need to demonstrate social proof to help attract her anyway)
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Great test, great scene. I read this and a chill ran up my spine. This happened to me in a similar context. I met girl, heavy gaming, number closed, then made some pretext to go for drinks before going on group/social circle thingy.
She threw a curve-ball, got mutual friend of ours to call me and to arrange drinks. I was surprised and said I was busy and never showed up. That would have been fine. But I lost my nerve, texted her the next day: “What happened”…bad.
She replied: “We waited for you but…” She outgamed me. I never got the shag in the end.
Now, this situation….
You’ve made out with her. She likes you. But suddenly there’s this group thingy, so I see this as a “flake”/shit-test.
This is a pre-arranged thing she’s obligated to go to and she’s inviting you. She’s in control of the frame.
Roissy writes: “”She says you’re welcome to invite some of your friends as well.””
“WELCOME TO INVITE YOUR FRIENDS AS WELL”.
But you’ve made out with her.
The problem with social circle dates is that IF you agree to her frame, she’s in control and IF you drop by and even do the kiss on cheek greeting, she might pull back and ruin the vibe.
This is a very Chinese girl situation. They pull this stuff.
To agree with “Maybe I’ll drop by” and then flake would be a default position.
But the drivers here:
1) You’ve made out with her: good
2) She agreed to this previously and you’re ‘Tagging along’ so no pressure
3) She likely wants to show you off
What I would do:
“Maybe I’ll drop by…”
I’d show up in the middle of the evening alone…looking sharp: shaved, cool but not overly dressed.
I’d show up with a female friend,/beard to give the whiff that she was my “date”. To generate some type of question/jealousy.
I’d make sure that when I showed up, I greeted her on my own but that she saw in the distance I was with or talking to this female friend.
I’d be vague when I saw her. “Hey….what are you doing here? A friend of mine asked me to come along.”
Make my meeting with the target quick. Then greet her friends…work them…cool….not putting on the jokey thing, but fun.
Not be physical with the girl, but kino her: kiss on the cheek, hand/elbow touch.
If there was female friend in group, I’d neg her, kino that friend, like opening a group set and ignore my “date/target”.
Then after working the hot friend in the group, I’d tell the target:
“Ok, let’s meet up after….I’ll be at XXX. Have fun.”
Then disappear. Have drink or whatever with female “beard”. Leave.
Never mention again the event and not show up to the place i had arranged.
Not respond to any texts from girl for 12 hours.
I’d work this as mysterious….and pre-selection as the criterion.
I’d want to then ignore for a few days to test whether the attraction/mystery was still high. If she called back/texted for another event, I’d plough on.
If not, I’d drop this for a week, then set up something as though that group date never happened and never mention it again.
That’s my submission.
Pass?
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As a student of Tom Leykis I’d follow his rule of “her friends are not your friends.”
I would tell her I would “try” and make it and then not show up. A night of being intensely scrutinized by her friends with no gaurantee of sex does not a fun night make.
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re: lkjlkj
That story is just so sick. No wonder she cheated on him. Who wouldn’t?
Just another illustration of the completely immoral nature of women.
BTW, I really think that if you have virtually nothing invested in the girl, going to a group event is a great idea. What is the downside? If you can’t impress her friends a little, you would likely not be able to impress her. And, you might make some good contacts. You can’t know too many people.
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The question is why not? You get to socialize and meet more people. You get to meet her friends and anonymous anonymous pretty much summed up the situation, IMO, perfectly.
If you go there and talk with her friends, being a flirt with the girls and the guy’s guy/man’s man with her guy friends – Its essentially a 3 hour date with her. If you mess up the socializing part, mark it off as a learning experience and go from there if not you go home and smash the prom queen (yes the Rock reference).
While I understand the “tom lykis” approach, your game doens’t get better by you staying at home. You should be out there improving your game no matter what. Honestly what do you have to lose? Overall, a couple hours and 60%+ of closing the girl, by schmoozing with her friends…again wheres the loss???
If she trusts you enough to have you come out and meet her friends, you’ve done well and gotten yourself to that point. SCORE!! If you’ve found a green 4 leafed clover leprechauns horseshoe and shes asked you out by sheer luck, you should still go for it, even if your game is so/so – the learning you get from this experience is still notable – while it may crash and burn – you can see where you are at in your social circle game.
again why not?
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I guess it depends on the event to be honest for me, Is it a work/charity event where I could work the room and gain new work contacts? Or is it some friend of hers that is throwing a party or some other event?
Either way I’m going……. Because she invited me, A girl that doesn’t like you wouldn’t have bothered. If I’ve already built that rapport and had the sensual makeout session, I’m already in there. Is this a test on her part to see me handle her friends and or coworkers? Definitely…
On arrival I would let her introduce me and then I would work the room with my friend who I know is fun and that I know could work the room with me. Having him around gives me something to do while she’s doing her thing and also helps me to game other women that are there. I would make it a point to work the room thoroughly so that she could see that i’m not needy and a clinger.
I agree with Black Rebel in that you have to leave early, depending on the event you could probably go two to three hours and then you have to go. I wouldn’t create an emergency I would just say that I have made plans to something else but that I had a good time and that she should give me a call when she’s done so we could end the night together. If you work it right she’ll be calling you within the hour.
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g manifesto is the biggest phony on the net
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I think just go. Reads like a professional type entertainment like an embassy do like the Anonymouses Anonymous mentions as opposed to going to meet a 21 year old’s chick friends at a bar.
It’s challenging to tell motivations because every woman is different – she may want to make things less date like to ease the pressure on both of you, or she may want to make it more date like (in a bf/gf way), maybe she’s got a busy schedule for the next week and really likes you so wants to see you and doesn’t want to take the risk of losing momentum, maybe she thought of someone that would be useful for you to meet or vice versa (i’m talking about a nice thing to do or networking to do here not controlling harpie type thing), maybe she wants to see how you’d deal with the social situation as part of her filtering for selection etc etc. Who knows. will vary from woman to woman and will vary within her in different situations..don’t go Cosmo, just go with the flow.
Why not go, take a friend, have fun, look good in front of her work contacts, make her look good in front of her work contacts. Result all around and if you’ve got sufficient attraction you’ll be be ‘banging’ her! And yes be friendly to any of her female friends but obviously it would be rude to game them at this event. And regardless of all that, you may have got some great new contacts for your life or your work.
By the way,
on
“Ok, let’s meet up after….I’ll be at XXX. Have fun.” Then disappear..Never mention again the event and not show up to the place i had arranged. Not respond to any texts from girl for 12 hours.”
and
“I would tell her I would “try” and make it and then not show up.”
Sheesh, and PUA blogs complain about how flaky women are?!! All the poor woman did was ask you to an event!
If I were that poor woman, in the first scenario, if I was completely attracted and blown over by how you’d been at the event, I’d be making sure I finished up as quick as I could to meet you (and don’t forget this is a professional event, this may mean compromising something/some other people), I’d be pretty hurt to not find you there.
I think some guys *really* underestimate the selection thing. You know a lot of women just don’t date to the extent that some guys do so the frames of reference are just poles apart. And if some people treat all women like bar party girls and whores, no wonder that’s all they claim they find.
Lily
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Anonymous
g manifesto is the biggest phony on the net
*chic noir looks over shoulder*
*wispers in anonymous’s ear*
You fool, you better leave g manifesto alone unless you want a diamond encrusted platinum bullet between your eyes.
____________________________________
roissy got darn you.
*chic noir stomps foot*
take me off this comment moderation. I’m testing material for my last comic standing audition tape and your ruining my flow and audience feedback.
[editor: you have a strong flow?]
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@Lily…
“”If I were that poor woman, in the first scenario, if I was completely attracted and blown over by how you’d been at the event, I’d be making sure I finished up as quick as I could to meet you (and don’t forget this is a professional event, this may mean compromising something/some other people), I’d be pretty hurt to not find you there.””
This scenario that Roissy describes is a complete shit test.
It puts ME in the position of playing into her frame and showing up with the potential for looking beta and needy.
I’ve been in this situation. I show up on my own and my “target” is busy, blows me off and my value goes down in front of her friends.
Showing up with a cute female friend, greeting the “target” on my own working her friends, then splitting to go back to my “beard” would cushion any potential blow off.
This is not something random, it’s calculated to see if I’m going to “pass” in front of her friends.
Being charming but in the presence of another attractive woman will ensure that she remains caught off guard and thinking of me as someone who she could lose rather than some guy who she can take for granted.
If this was a LTR, and she asked me to attend, it wouldn’t matter. But second date…this needs to be managed in a way that I remain in control and looking alpha, not like a beta who’s following her.
Not showing up is too easy.
Showing up with female friend, keeping the whole thing vague in front of the target and flaking on her would ensure I have hand.
It would ensure I looked busy.
It would ensure I had options.
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@walawala
I’ve also been in a similar situations, but from the other side 🙂
And I certainly wouldn’t have invited a ‘needy beta’ to it. And if someone I had been on a date with beforehand and invited to an event could be turned into a ‘needy beta’ by just turning up to it, really I’d have pretty atrocious taste in men?
In regards to my closest approximation of this scenario, I certainly didn’t blow him of in front of my friends. Regardless of the fact that it would be a very ungracious way to act, part of the reason I invited him was he was high value enough for me to be happy to introduce him around. Why would I then blow him off?
And yes I did get something similar to what you said ‘got to go now, I’m going to go for a drink with my friends, catch up later after you’ve finished up here’ and yes I got away quickly and nowhere not as late as I may have otherwise, texted him and was soon on my way to a meeting a deux. And much fun it was too 🙂
I’d have been really hurt if I’d turned up and he hadn’t been there or not replied to my texts for 12 hours per your recommendation. Let alone call up a week later with no mention it, as if it’s ok just to pick up and drop people as you like.
I’m not sure why you turned up to the events on your own if as Roissy’s scenario she said you can bring friends? That’s like you assuming she wants you to be her date on her arm. I’d think the best candidate is a high status fun guy, but as you said, a girl is a good idea too. If it is more of a social with friends than a work type function, then I’d take 2 or 3 guys, her female friends will be happy. Obviously they need to be like wings rather than say they met you playing dungeons and dragons when you were 10 🙂
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Generally I only accept invites like this if it’s an event I would go to anyway independent of her. And even then I just make an appearance, have some fun and then leave. 45 minutes is about right.
A corollary rule is never take a girl to a crowded bar or other social event on a date, unless it’s packed with your friends for social proof (and even then only for a little while before you isolate).
Early in my gaming days I brought a girl to a salsa party when I was just starting to learn salsa (big DLV). Too many distractions and you don’t control the environment. She ended up leaving with an ex bf. Ouch. Lesson learned.
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editor: you have a strong flow?
flowing
sorry
*chic noir bashfully looks away*
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i agree with all the arguments here. but the weighting is off.
i think the fact that she is leading this and you are following into a situation controlled by her on her social turf is a significant dlv in itself.
if you could have her without working a room of her friends, without impressing her friends so as to impress her, then why would you do these things?
accepting is following and qualifying yourself to her.
i’d like to know more *details* about the next date…
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I forgot to mention, if you do go to the event and want an escape hatch, use a false deadline: “I have to go to X at 10pm.” Make sure X is something where you can say: “I called and cancelled. You’re friends would be sad if I left.”
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g manifesto is the biggest phony on the net
Naw, the biggest is PA. He was outed the other day as having lied about having a wife and kid. He is actually a 40-y/o virgin.
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Look, all this resistance to going out with the girl is too textbook.
The point is:
– You have the opportunity to game her in front of her friends, and turn the social situation to your advantage.
– You can avoid her as much as she avoids you. This actually works in your favor.
– You can leave early. The early bail can be set up easily. Implies scarcity and that you’re busy, better than not going does. You’re a charmer for going along, but you’re not a pushover.
– Not going loses you an opportunity.
Unless you’ve got nothing under the hood, and specific routines or nascent game is your only tool, then you have lots going for you and nothing to hold you back.
Not going is just retarded and parsimonious of game technique. You should be able to play any situation.
Assume you’re not going to score on the second date and leave it for later. Build it up. Impatience is not a virtue.
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Well, I am a class I Omega with occasional mid-beta moments of brilliance, so what the hell do I know.
Anyway, my suspected answer to the question:
1) Have plans for “something else” that night, but explain that you can attend briefly earlier.
2) Be incongruous – if it is a corporate-type event, go there looking like a yuppie dressed for an ad-agency meeting, or whatnot. But no polo with khakis.
3) Talk with most of the people there, give your girl a bit of a status-boost by complimenting her publicly, then retract it a bit with a private neg shortly after.
4) Don’t let everyone meet you, preserve a bit of mystery if possible.
5) Leave early under the pretext you had stated, right as you are just beginning to have people warm up to you.
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Risk:
Game is always risky. You manage risk. There’s no guarantee you’re going to score. Not everything is about scoring right now.
You need to know how to take a step back, if necessary, to take two steps forward.
The whole rush-rush to the close smacks of desperation and thoughtless inability to appreciate the process or the woman.
Game is an art, not just a science. You need to feel it. Being around her friends is a great chance to demonstrate DHV, especially with her friends. Never give up a chance like that.
Working a social situation is to game what jazz is to music: half improvisation. You need to flow with it, read cues, respond properly, and generate situations as you need.
There’s nothing wrong with going.
Anyone who says different is being a weenie, or has weak game.
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I think the answer is pretty easy provided your stable is somewhat empty.
You go. You meet up with her and get the introductions. Be friendly with her but pay her no more attention than is necessary. Hopefully she’ll be busy. Don’t be overly nice-guy, but strike up as many good conversations with her friends as possible. Have a few drinks and enjoy yourself. Be into her friends. Leave when it feels right. Tell her you had fun. Tell her you’ll call her to set something up but be kind of vague. Call her in a few days.
That’s like the worst case scenario right there. The fact that you probably met a bunch of other people almost makes the night worth it even if you never hear from her again.
Best case scenario, your chick doesn’t want you to leave and after you split for a few more drinks you take her and her hottest friend down at the Four Seasons later that night.
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Perhaps you put way too much thought into this one. Most likely the girl liked you and wanted to introduce you to her friends. There was no real quandry. Group dates are extremely common.
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This is an easy one:
Show up with a hot wing-girl who will meet one of her friends at the venue later, just after she’s given you a huge boost of preselection and got a jealously plotline going with the girl you are meeting.
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Gorb
You somehow knew that the essence of jazz is the 50% rule; i.e., you aim to play the notes that your audience anticipates exactly 50% of the time and to play notes that surprise them the other 50%. That is the golden ratio.
Impressed I am.
I am also a believer in the unique power of music-that the guy plays- in inspiring a women to invite you in.
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.. easy enuf .. Don’t go … it cannot possibly help you in any way ..
best response: Accept, call up half hour late to offer lame excuse .. suggest another day ..
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@Rum
Gorb
You somehow knew that the essence of jazz is the 50% rule; i.e., you aim to play the notes that your audience anticipates exactly 50% of the time and to play notes that surprise them the other 50%. That is the golden ratio.
Impressed I am.
I am also a believer in the unique power of music-that the guy plays- in inspiring a women to invite you in.
I have no idea how jazz actually works (I’m useless musically). But women and social situations seem to be like that, and 50% is a good rule to follow in most of them. it’s also like painting or editing. Flow, spirit, focus, wide-angle, in for a bite, out for a look-see, pause and reflect then move forcefully then take then give. Like surfing. You ride it at least as much as you direct it. Like the way a cat moves: supple and lean, nothing wasted, cold calculation matched with confident grace.
You can talk strategy until we’re all blue in the face. All the PUAs have their own guides covering this shit. The point is to absorb the underlying principles and use texbook game to focus them.
I don’t approach a set like a military tactician; I plan it and I follow routines when I need to, but… it’s all about the flow. The social flow. You need to feel it, breathe it, absorb it, like it’s part of you – like a wave you ride, and manipulate, but something dynamic, everything feeds back on you. You need to feel it. The push-pull works when it jars a little, but it’s best when it flows like a wave bouncing off one side of a pool and hitting the other and coming back again. That’s perfection. Social dynamics are the same.
SHIT TESTS: If this invitation is a shit-test, and it’s not just a genuinely friendly invite (or it’s both), then play the shit test and don’t fail.
I don’t need to remind anyone that if you *pass* this kind of shit-test, you score major points. Suddenly, you’re bad ass with all of her GF’s, too. The returns can be huge. It depends on how it goes down, but look: There’s always another girl, and if you fuck it up, there are often ways to recover, too, and anyway it’s not usually all win or all lose. Besides, you get to meet people and this isn’t a chore. A couple of PUAs I know would be likely to end up making out with one of the GF’s, anyway. One of them would do it just to be spiteful.
Too much game advice is all about the Hit or Bling or military-like divide and conquer strategies. Once you have some game, you just need to go in, feel the social vibe, feel the situation, blend in and stand out – as necessary. There’s way too much overdoing it. Use your standard, basic social skills but sharpen them with game.
Unless someone’s autistic, or a total social flop with no instincts at all, you should be able to fold yourself into any situation and ride it. Gracefully.
At *SOME* point, anyway, you’re going to need more than game – you’re going to need actual social skills. Game gets you out there, but you need to be graceful under fire and flexible and clever. Without the social skills, all the game in the world doesn’t mean shit. And how do you expect to carry it beyond 1-2 dates, even when you bang her? You’re going to have to pony up. Might as well do it early if you’re able to.
I find that on balance it works better than asshole game, unless you’re trying to score the super-hot poon.
Super Hot Chicks
A lot of the time, *nothing* seems to work with this level, and you just need to be a total dick and stick out like a sore thumb. I wouldn’t know; I’ve never tried it. But other guys swear by it.
10’s have a bitch shield so overpowering, sometimes it takes a nuclear bomb to get through it. I’ve seen some guys with women like this, and they’re generally the world’s biggest assholes. Sociopaths, almost.
In the media it’s all like that. Sometimes, you meet ridiculously fucking hot women, so scorching and – frankly – delicious it’s hard for men not to squirm like monkeys in a grinder. These are the solid, perfect 10s. There are more of them than you think (most have no talent and are this hot for staggeringly short periods of time; they get used up awfully fast).
And inevitably, the guy she’s with is either mondo rich, has access to something the woman wants (drugs, parties, modeling or movie jobs), or frankly more often is a Major Dick of Unsusual Proportions.
He doesn’t even need to be decent-looking. The bigger an asshole he is, the hotter the chicks he seems to get. These guys often run harems or have different women set up in different cities. Social graces with women seem to be utterly irrelevant to these guys. They get the women anyway. Some of them aren’t even rich.
But the rest of us inhabit the real world, with real women, and having a solid set of social skills and good instincts is as important as game in the final analysis.
So going to some group thing on a second date is a total absolute no-brainer. Just have an out if you need to use it.
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@Lily
“”I’m not sure why you turned up to the events on your own if as Roissy’s scenario she said you can bring friends? That’s like you assuming she wants you to be her date on her arm. I’d think the best candidate is a high status fun guy, but as you said, a girl is a good idea too. “”
Just a clarification. I meant that I would turn up to the event with a girl-friend/pivot/beard.
I would approach her alone not with the friend.
I think there was dangling sentence in my original post.
Inviting a guy to come along, after the first date sounds to me like she’s on the fence.
I’ve been in these situations where when I’ve turned up I’ve felt like I shouldn’t have been there and felt totally awkward as the pressure that was involved seemed to put me on display.
But, with a better understanding of “game” and “inner game”, I’d think bringing the beard-girl would be a way of putting her on notice that I’m not her friend and if she wants me to tag along after our first “date”…this is a push into the friendzone and I’ve got options.
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I’d go in .. GUNS BLAZING! What an excellent opportunity to flash all the alphaness I learnt @ roissys. After I have won over her friends she can now it will be easy for her to rationalize her attraction for me since she actually on a second date with me. I think she has a big crush on me. Actually, I don’t know if this is what I wanted. I’m not looking for any relationships right now and I don’t want to give her too much hope. Maybe if we slept together she could demonstrate more value but I’m sceptic.
About kino: Easy. Just do a lot of social touch and at some point you’re actually alone with her anyway or I can make that happen too and then you can escalate further preferably some close hugging and if she responds well just go for the kissclose.
PS: What is buffer in “buffer zone”?
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I don’t have time to read all the above comments yet but I would emphatically say that no, I would not attend such an event in any town where I have an MLTR whose members are unknown to each other.
Every friend of hers will become a spy who will inform her within seconds if you are seen with one of your other women.
I had a woman I was dating text me last month sarcastically asking me how “working late at the office” was going. I was lucky to catch the sarcasm and stated I was sharing a cab with a colleague. This was the right answer because a friend of hers who had never been introduced to me but who had only seen us together before, had just phoned her with the news that I was with a blond of about 5″9″ height standing outside a restaurant. I had been seconds away from saying I was still working late at the office. 😉
I still haven’t met my main squeeze’s father. That would double the spies arrayed against me. 😉
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I also agree with DJDamage that you can become the target of a Beta orbiter who will try to get you to say something he can twist the words around with. This has happened to me before with devastating consequences. I knew what he was trying to do and didn’t say anything wrong but I know he still found a way to invent something that I never had the chance to explain.
Meet the Parents doesn’t work in the USA if you are more than 10 years older than she is. Steer clear of that.
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@Jerry
Meet the Parents doesn’t work in the USA if you are more than 10 years older than she is. Steer clear of that.
This is absolutely true.
It goes over very, very badly. Happened only twice to me. Devastating both times. Egad.
And fantasies of getting both the daughter and the mom are just fantasies.
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I will add: don’t introduce casual male acquaintances to a woman whom you’ve spoken to about women before. Example: a man you were just chatting around with as a potential wing-man at a bar. If he is interested in your target, he will quickly tell her any philosophy about women that you told him you have. The chances of getting stabbed in the back are sky-high if you are not sure about your friendship with the wing-man.
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I’m too ADHD to read all of the comments. But this:
I agree with. However, I likely disagree with other things in Gorby’s post, so don’t take it to mean that I’m a commie-sympathizer, hehe.
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gorbachev —
And fantasies of getting both the daughter and the mom are just fantasies.
heh. oh, the things women will do for potent psychoactive chemicals. and they’re not terribly smart, either — some mother/daughter combos will do, for $500 worth of drugs, things that could easily net them ten times that rate in cold hard cash.
but they don’t.
they’d rather take 10% on the dollar, in kind, because their feelings would be offended by taking the cash.
heh.
yes, most m/d pairs who would do this are low-class skanks. but in certain corners of southern california — the same corners where mommy takes the $5000/mo child support and uses it to take her sweet-16 daughter to the plastic surgeon, sometimes even with daddy’s imprimatur — this venn diagram of depravity intersects with some hot, hot mothers and daughters.
there’s a big wide world out there, i tells ya.
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@narciso
yes, most m/d pairs who would do this are low-class skanks. but in certain corners of southern california — the same corners where mommy takes the $5000/mo child support and uses it to take her sweet-16 daughter to the plastic surgeon, sometimes even with daddy’s imprimatur — this venn diagram of depravity intersects with some hot, hot mothers and daughters.
there’s a big wide world out there, i tells ya.
What part of socal have *you* been to?
‘Cause I don’t remember any of that.
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“”UPDATE
What I did:
I told her I’d stop by. I went and chatted up her friends while she darted about catching up with them and performing event duties. She went out of her way to introduce me to many of her friends, which I thought was cool. And, as a nice bonus, one of her cute female friends flirted with me for quite a while, which wasn’t much of a surprise as girls tend to become more intrigued when they see you in the company of one of their girl friends. I left by myself a couple hours later, after I told her to enjoy the rest of the night with her friends. Our next date was very good.””
Wow…that was a bit of a let down. Did we all miss something?
Did Roissy actually write this? “Our next date was good.” doesn’t sound like you….
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http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=1469078. Women biologically progrrammed to cheat.
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gorb — mostly, nameless suburbs that are crisscrossed by freeways, laden with sprawl, and redolent with the decaying dreams of ex-starlets who had once dreamt of making it big. admittedly i’m illustrating an extreme case, but this stuff happens in henderson and summerlin, nevada, too. i suppose it’s the circles you meet, i guess.
the surgery is technically not allowed if the girl is under 18, but, as you might imagine, that is often negotiated off-record as well.
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You know, I am beginning to se why J5 called this the remedial class. The post presumed that you have a good level of game already. I think a good rule is that there is NO situation where you are with a girl you are gaming that cannot be turned to your advantage, if you handle it right.
The only exception I can think of is when you need to keep girl A a secret from girl B and A wants you to take her somewhere where B or her friends will spot you. Even there the situation is salvageable if you avoid PDAs, but that’s the one case it would be better not to go.
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Go and make sure you ask the hottest friend of hers if she wants to join in for a three sum. Bonus points if you’re rolling and she lets u do coke off her ass, while your “gf” watches and joins in.
Interesting point chicks dig guys who do their own thing. Especially when you disappear without telling her. Just say…
“I have to go return some DVDs.”
“I assessed the situation and I am leaving.”
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Lily: “And if someone I had been on a date with beforehand and invited to an event could be turned into a ‘needy beta’ by just turning up to it, really I’d have pretty atrocious taste in men?”
Bingo! Read it over and over again until it sinks in.
When you have a headache, you take two Advil, not the whole bottle.
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@BDS
Lol
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This type of date is just part of the build baby. There’s nothing sexier than seeing a man work a room. I can’t speak for her motivations but I would enjoy watching you. It’s not so much a test as it is foreplay.
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@anoukage….I don’t understand your post and wonder if it’s something cultural living here in Hong Kong.
Girls who are trying to blow you off, tend to invite you to group things so they can show you off.
The girl in this scenario seems a bit more sophisticated and classier than that.
But then, how would I know. I’ve been in some recent situations I’ve thought went great and the girl suddenly never returned calls/emails.
I would be highly suspicious and would want to play it ultra cool and self-protective until I sussed out what was really going on.
Why invite me to an event she’s going to be hosting/working or already at with her friends if it’s not to see me work under pressure.
Ok, now I get it, when you’ve got strong “inner game” and your game is sharp, you can go, work the room like Bubba and then split only to get payback in kind later.
I can work a room. It’s just I wouldn’t trust someone who invited me under these circumstances.
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walawala-
I can’t speak for this girl, but it would be a compliment from me to invite a guy to this type of thing. I’m a watcher. I like to watch who I am involved with. I would have already decided he was of caliber enough to be invited. Being in a social environment where two have to hold off on their attraction only heightens the pleasure once it comes.
…and yes, the reward would be later. He would get a call later, after my duties were done with the event. What girls are getting wrong these days from what I can see and read is that they are not rewarding the guys they put through the so-called shit tests, so guys are becoming bitter and less inclined to participate.
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Ummm…how is this a shit test????
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to all the guys imagining the scenario is some elaborate social situation concocted by the manipulative female mind for the sole purpose of “gaining the upper hand,” please remember this simple fact: women do not need to work that hard for the upper hand.
[editor: they do if they’re fat, ugly, old, or have the personality of a cheese grater.]
–the LIL & epoxy
[i am woman, hear me roar.]
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@LIL – Word
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@aoefe,
yo yo yo word up, dawg.
(fist pump).
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walawala–
“Girls who are trying to blow you off, tend to invite you to group things so they can show you off.”
yep, because it is so much easier to blow someone off in person than, say, over the phone.
“Why invite me to an event she’s going to be hosting/working or already at with her friends if it’s not to see me work under pressure.”
WHY.
“I can work a room. It’s just I wouldn’t trust someone who invited me under these circumstances”
pray tell, under what OTHER circumstances might someone invite you to an event?
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Toche me! Toche me!?
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“[editor: they do if they’re fat, ugly, old, or have the personality of a cheese grater.]”
for the purposes of this scenario, let’s assume the girl is none of the above. (and, let’s be srs–who cares what her personality is like.)
“[i am woman, hear me roar.]”
poxy and i are on the road, homeslice
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@ Anoukage & LIL Girl:
“”What girls are getting wrong these days from what I can see and read is that they are not rewarding the guys they put through the so-called shit tests, so guys are becoming bitter and less inclined to participate.””
Yes, I think this whole test was more of a test our bitterness and suspicion.
To LIL Girl…this type of nonsense is de riguer from Chinese girls who would put me through some weird set of hoops by inviting me, then ignoring me.
An Anoukage, maybe you’re in that minority of women who actually “get it”.
I’ve had experiences with women who are super keen to meet up or invite me or whatever and then regardless of whether I play it cool or show some interest, they flake.
That’s why this scenario seems like such a shit test.
Although the way R positioned this, a guy who’s more experienced ie: gets laid a lot, wouldn’t really care and would turn up just to hang out, with the back-up plan of bailing the girl in question acted badly.
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I wish I could get the number to begin with. I have not had a number since Feb. Dating attractive women is impossible.
The guy that is better looking and has money gets laid. Plain and simple. Game does not work I can tell you that. It does not work it is a myth to make money. Absolutely.
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I am old, ugly, and fat, but even so, a guy has to pass the inspection of my crew before he becomes more than a bitch to me. No matter how much wishful thinking I may have, if he hasn’t met the boys, he stays amusement at most.
I’m not dumb enough to think that, as a woman, I can properly gauge the intentions or staying power of men. I never thought this about myself, but until I took the plunge and gave three key male friends actual veto power, I’d go on good faith. Now, I actually obey (yeah I said the o word) them, when it comes to my choices.
If they meet a guy and tell me he’s bad for me, I will break it off. They’ve never steered me wrong yet.
I don’t know if there are other women like me out there, but there should be. If I’d done things this way 25 years ago, I’d be considered “sheltered”, and like it that way.
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Chiguy–
ah man… you’re breaking my heart. Let’s go out sometime, seriously. I’ll be your wing. 😉
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@ King
Someone reposted that old, old comment from a different thread here under my name, not me.
In any case, I really don’t care what other men make of my rating, I stand by it with good reason to. I have eyes, I’ve seen pics. The lower body is good, but waist up and especially neck up is a turn off. If other men find her attractive, good for them, and good for her.
@ Lil
Ah, you got married. Congrats.
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Plank, stop trying to run Game on a blog. Just go out into the real world and do it. 🙂
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Since most everyone on here defends “game” then hopefully you guys can explain to me how and why it truly works. I have been in this for a couple of years now and done tons of approaches (around 3000) and I still have not been able to date anyone that I am attracted too….I constantly hear that this supposed game is so great. Well I have tried it – the teasing, the banter, negs, cold reading, stories – all the carnival tricks but it never works. The chick always ends up going for the hotter guy or has a boyfriend or something. I have taken a few bootcamps but the teaching was terrible, there were no demos they were all just fluff and not much else. Money out the window. So I never saw it there. The community is really a dishonest place.
So all you experts out there – how and why does this game thing work? I have not had a number in months and sex is something I only read about. It never happens..so experts start your engines and prove this stuff to me if you dare…lol..
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Hardly, M-Theory. Happily engaged. It’s this comment from ages ago that someone keeps reposting under my name, and keeps following me around.
Albeit, the same conversations about how if you don’t agree with a certain woman’s ranking, you are bitter/beta/wrong/inexperienced/”running game” etc. get tiresome. In any case, saying you find a certain woman unattractive, does not mean you wish them any ill will. It is simply a detached observation – especially when the women in the pictures being discussed are women I never bank on encountering in real life. I can see that my 4 may be someone’s 7, and someone’s 6 may be my 9. Tastes vary, and people should get over it.
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@Chiguy
I highly, highly doubt that this stuff works with anyone who wasn’t a natural to begin with. I think most of the people on this site bury themselves in theory but never dare to put it into actual practice.
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Chiguy,
Many aspects of PUA theory are excellent for making the most of a guy’s potential. Peacocking, eliminating body language mistakes, improving conversational ability, and many other “game” aspects will maximize either the attraction that they could’ve possibly had for you and the opportunities you’ll have to meet girls without as many barriers.
But, what is vastly overstated (if not completely fabricated) is how useful it is to CREATE attraction if the potential wasn’t there to begin with.
[editor: not at all. game can create attraction where there was none. out of wholecloth. i’ve seen it. i’ve experienced it. it’s the equivalent of a fat woman magically and instantaneously slimming down.]
(three guesses as to why that’s happened as it’s become such a big business in recent years….)
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@Jonathan
@Chiguy
“I highly, highly doubt that this stuff works with anyone who wasn’t a natural to begin with. I think most of the people on this site bury themselves in theory but never dare to put it into actual practice.”
It took me almost a year until I started being able to use game properly. It was pure agony. I was rejected so much my ego barely survived.
But I did and it works. But you need to think more clearly about it if it’s not working. It’s trial and error: You just do what works. Something doesn’t work? Then don’t do it again.
Stick with it. Returns come slowly.
BTW, barring using asshole game, you only get a +1/2 bonus when looking for attractive women. Bear that in mind.
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@Chiguy
3,000 approaches?
The thing about game is that it’s a tool box and it is about having “inner confidence” and a lifestyle shift.
Johnny 5 here gave me some insights here when he talks about game that was encouraging:
“”at a higher level, YOU are the one who’s making HER wait.
and if you make her wait more than three dates, or five, or … however many*, then just wait to see what sort of fireworks you’ll get when you finally let HER have what SHE wants.””
If you look at this as a short-term pick up tool, then sure, you’ll be disappointed.
But if you look at the whole process as a shift towards a more alpha-inspired life where you are more assertive and confident, then it won’ t matter if you’re blown out.
I’m also getting mixed results when I game and at times I think, “Maybe I should have been nicer instead of negging or teasing…”
But when I realize that what I’m looking at here is a whole shift in the male-female dynamic and that the push-back or resistance I get to my gaming is part of that dynamic, then I can walk away knowing I made an impression rather than being some bland “nice guy” like everyone else.
This post should have been called “A Test of Your INNER Game”.
I fell into the bitterness trap when assessing it. But after reading the posts, I realize maybe there was another way of looking at the situation.
Last night I “Trial texted” a girl I’d met on the weekend. She responded in an hour and we’re hanging out Thursday. It’s casual, but we both know it’s on.
Game has helped me understand the unspoken language and signals between men and women.
But the first step for me was to get rid of the beta mindset. The bitterness, the getting angry when some girl blew me off, or didn’t respond or whatever and shift that thinking to “she just wasn’t mature enough to handle me.”
It’s a process that as Gorby suggests take time to adapt and calibrate until you make the tools your own.
If something isn’t working, maybe you need to be more specific and put it up here for people to comment on?
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@Gorby
Yes, @Chitown needs to present a compendium of field reports that others can comment on. He also needs to lay down some demographic background, general geographic hunting grounds and wardrobe details.
Sight unseen, I am assuming he is short and needs, therefore, to immediately move to Hawaii or Asia. Life is too short not to do this (forgive the pun). Unless he is hopelessly fantasizing about caucasian women, he needs to move now. The Internet will help him earn a great living in the Far East or Hawaii.
I am also assuming he is not direct enough and/or off-the-wall enough to be interesting. He needs to present a list of subjects he talks about with women (and how and where he meets the women).
Sight unseen, I would advise him to never try to just be friends with someone. Women disrespect attempts to, for instance, help them get a job via LinkedIn more than they would disrespect a request for an HJ for $500.
Regarding the phrase “I used to have a beta mindset…in that I…would get angry if a girl blew me off”:
I believe I was a Beta when I accepted being blown off submissively and/or falsely assumed that I was being blown off too soon.
I think @Chitown is accepting rejection too readily. Maybe he needs to approach some women who rejected him before and show some shock and stand up for himself.
Sure, feminists hate men who get furious when they (the feminists) flake on them or get rude with them. But that is because they want men to submissively accept rejection.
I will tell the (thankfully few) women who reject me rudely that they have about 3 more years of being beautiful.
Sometimes that actually helps win them back (but a feminist trained woman would hate me all the more for saying that). One can argue that it is better for a woman to hate a man she has rejected than to be indifferent about him. The fact that he expressed shock that she rejected him and told her she had just 3 more years of having any power over men…can eat at a woman’s psyche.
Deep down they know the truth. Men need to dig it out in the open and Roissy’s blog is not enough. Men need to tell women who reject them that their days of power are numbered…so the next guy might get a more tempered soul in front of him.
If I were with a tall young woman and a short Chinese American guy came up to us and started ragging on her for rejecting him in favor of a tall guy like me…I would ask her in front of him if it were true that she had completely blown him off just because of his height.
Smart good looking men would like “uglier” men to tell them what the character of the woman they are with is really like.
It would sure teach a shallow woman a lesson to lose a good looking man because a less good looking man approached with a story about what she is really like.
I was on a date in New York once when I asked how her last date had been. She replied that it was really eating at her that she rejected the last guy but that he had insulted her in the way I just described.
I said that he had simply made a point and it shouldn’t bother her. But she was really upset that I agreed with him that it was a point.
Feminists want a world of “Rejection Without Consequences”. I had a feminist tell me once that women bore no moral responsibility for telling a man why she wants to reject him.
If more males upset the apple cart more when they get rejected, there would be a lot less smugly confident young women walking around New York thinking there are no consequences to flaky behavior.
The trick is not to show “one-itis” or obsess about any particular rejection…and not to get a reputation for being a sore loser (show your shock and displeasure at her “socially unacceptable behavior” and move on).
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@Chitown
It really, really pays to be up on current events when you meet new women. If they are smart, you can be like their Drudge Report and they will seek you out to ask “what’s new in the world”. It takes 10 minutes per day to be up-to-date enough to be fascinating to someone for an hour just in talking about today’s news.
I have more than one woman friend who wants to meet me once per week and, when we sit down for drinks, she smiles and says “Well…fill me in on the world news with your usual rye comments”.
Use a variety of websites including TMZ (celebrity gossip). The Roissy blog sometimes presents a topic to be discussed in front of a new woman…but mostly it does not for obvious reasons.
In that respect, reading only PUA sites can badly hurt you with women. You really need to be simultaneously reading the news sites to establish a foundation of being topical and interesting.
You also need to be well-read with deep background on important subjects. For example:
1) For anglo college graduates, you will need to have read the 5 most classic of English novels and let them know before they reject you that you read these (for women from other cultures, you will need to have read different famous novels).
2) Be an expert on vegetarianism without actually being one or being a lefty. Know all about toxicology issues. Women can be incredibly health conscious and they will want to cleave to a man who can “save their life” with the right advice on how to avoid cancerous substances.
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walawala:
nice.
the effects of this sort of attitude shift are seismic.
first, when you take the pacing of the interaction into your own hands, you are denying the woman the immense superiority complex associated with her sexual power. in fact, you are commandeering the most lethally loaded weapon in her nuclear arsenal of manipulation, and turning her (war)head right round, right round, right into her face.
there are two immensely beautiful things going on here.
one, this is just insanely powerful. absolutely insane.
especially with sluttier girls — after all, sluttier girls tend to be those whose only direct means of influencing a man is through their sexuality. you should see the spacetime distortions that occur when you wrest that weapon from them; they have no backup arsenal.
two, the beauty here is that sexual power is entirely a mental construct — she has the sexual power if you decide she has the sexual power, and, if you don’t, she doesn’t. really, lightbulb time!, it’s that simple (although it will require shaolin levels of asceticism at first, if you’re used to chasing pussy). the reason this is beautiful is that the OTHER inequalities in relationships, the ones that generally work in men’s favor — such as physical power, authority, and objective status differences of whatever type — are not mental constructs, and therefore can’t be forfeited by mere assumption. the only way you can lose those forms of power is by willingly handing them over, which, unfortunately, most men do (“yesdear!”)
so — once you’ve snatched the sexual power, your job becomes merely not fumbling any of the power you currently have. if you have sticky hands, you’ll have the upper hand forever.
oh, and have i mentioned that sex with girls who are working for it is actually not boring?
door number 1: sex after “overcoming lmr”, with a girl who will very possibly have severe buyer’s remorse the next day, and will be fucking with half a mind
door number 2: sex with a girl who will crawl, grovel, grind, and debase herself to earn it from you
you know which door i take.
yeah.
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chiguy:
if you are actually 0 for 3000 — i mean, after threetimestentothethird approaches you’d expect to have just fallen into a pussy or two or six here and there — then you are probably not feeling this stuff.
the game material is not meant to be taken literally — you are supposed to USE IT TO GLEAN THE BIG PICTURE of the subtext behind it.
i.e., if you see a neg, DON’T memorize the fucking neg, for the love of sweet god.
instead, ask yourself:
“what kind of dude would just up and say this?”
then be your fabulous academy-award-winning self and BE tht dude.
that, friend, is what the game material is for. the actual words don’t much matter at all, actually — one of my most successful openers, as it were, has been a slightly irritated look (the way you’d look at a 11-year-old who is acting out) and one word: “What.”
forget the letter of the law. concentrate on the spirit of the law.
also, if you are 0/3000 you are probably not being realistic about the “women you are attracted to”. entitlement complexes are a bitch, friend. start small. work your way up.
oh, and work on that fucking palpable sense of defeatist desperation a bit, wouldya? thanks.
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oh, and, @walawala, i’ll give you one more teaser here.
quick: what’s your attitude when you see a really hot girl at a club/bar/hell, even a bookstore, in an outfit that is daringly provocative?
the chump reaction:
* my my, how intimidating.
* i’d better not look; i’d just melt into the ground if she caught me staring.
the pimp reaction:
* how cute, she’s going out of her way to impress guys like me.
* she must want it pretty bad. she’s displaying her résumé pretty aggressively — i bet i can make her work harder for less remuneration.
you see where this is going?
uh huh.
with the latter attitude, you can stare, grab, belittle, toy, tease, demean, etc. with impunity (and aplomb). be forewarned, though, that all these actions will backfire like a motherfucker if anything is the least bit out of sync with your vibe.
go read my june 28 post (“between the lines”) and ask yourself, honestly and brutally, if you could instantly step up in that situation, with that woman, and know exactly what to do to her. if “no”, you ain’t there yet. if “yes”, then just look at every other woman through the same lens, and, bam, done.
done.
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@Johnny Five…
“”two, the beauty here is that sexual power is entirely a mental construct — she has the sexual power if you decide she has the sexual power, and, if you don’t, she doesn’t. really, lightbulb time!””
Interesting. I got an out of the blue call from my Korean cougar neighbour who told me she has moved into my apartment building a few floors below and “Maybe you can come over or I come over”.
I met her a few years back pre-game.
But she was always quite keen. I always played it cool with her, I thought she was a bit nuts.
She was desperate for a shag and was constantly asking me about other women I was shagging.
One day, I invited her over for dinner. She flaked an hour before saying she was golfing.
I had cooked dinner.
I didn’t get mad. I invited someone else over that night.
Then when she made arrangements for a dinner party, I flaked an hour before I was supposed to come.
Worked a charm. The tension is incredible when we meet up for dinners.
Now this sudden call is basically the green light.
I look back and think, the only reason I was so good was because I didn’t give a shit. I negged her constantly. I never called her back ever. I was always passing her shit tests by responding to her ridiculous questions with snappy responses.
Now I look at some of the girls I’ve gamed recently.
Most successful: married one…again, I never even had her number stored in my phone. She’d get in touch when she wanted to meet. I’d tell her what to wear, she’d come over, it was party time.
Then I meet girls a “like” and “want” and as you say…I give them power they never had.
Game works when you become conscious of it, then forget about it. It’s there…but it’s like a power you have.
You can approach girls, if they say no or whatever, smile, laugh, tease, whatever.
If you can keep your Inner Game—that inner confidence—then it doesn’t matter.
The reason game doesn’t work for guys is that you have to have a life, hobbies, interests and things that you can do on your own and then work on that self-esteem to project an image of desirability.
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When I said 3000 approaches – I meant with women I am attracted too. Yes I have been on dates but with women I have marginal attraction. Yes I am shorter than average (5’7) but I dress very well, keep up on topics, very well read, traveled, above average looking and keep myself in good athletic shape (I work out and watch my diet).
I am very familiar with theory and have read tons of materials, books (anything from Michael Buss to Mystery to any pop psychology thing). I must have 100 books on the subject. Now I can hear someone say – you have read too much. Well more knowledge is always better I believe. Anyway, yeah I go used to go out often (not as much I kind of got burned out and very discouraged) and would go thru set after set. I showed total confidence which EVERY guy always talks about (you know the funny thing is that I know so many guys that are totally insecure but nail some of the hottest women – its because they are good looking, tall, either have coin or its just timing).
What I am asking is whether this game stuff works or not? I do not need any preaching on inner game or shakras or anything that is meta-physical – no does this work or not? I really feel that this is all a big sham. Women seem to react to the same things I have always seen – looks, height, money, status – the usual suspects.
No one can give me a straight answer? Why? If someone were to ask me (I am a guitar player) whether they could play Led Zeppelin songs I would say this is the deal you need to practice, learn these scales,ect.
I entered this community to date hotter women. It has not happened. THEY ALL told me that game would be the great equalizer – over the last couple of years (actually its been since 2004) and thousands of approaches (its probably more than 3000 – closer to 5000 if you really look at it) I still am not even close to an SNL, dating a 9, dating a hot blonde – nothing. I have spent thousands and thousands, gone out, done all the carnival tricks and NOTHING.
So gentlemen – does this work or not? And if it does they why does it work?
Thanks!
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Chiguy, what city are you in? Maybe an experienced guy from there who reads this blog will volunteer to wing you for a while and give you a 1-on-1 assessment.
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Chiguy, out of those 3000 approaches:
how many numbers did you get?
how many dates?
how many kisses?
how many bj’s?
how many lays?
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and are you a blank-slate reductionist liberal hippie doosh?
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@ Chiguy
You gotta drop the desperation and frustration. That vibe is obvious in your posts, so I’m sure girls sense it when you hit on them. Nothing turns a girl off more than that. Its the inverse of being seen with girls and being preselected.
You need to not be so invested, thats the vibe sexually successful guys exude.
All of these game techniques basically mimic a “cool” person. Step back and assess yourself… when its all said and done are you basically one of the cooler guys at the bar? One that 8’s and above would want to be with? Because they can choose from plenty. If not, you need to keep working on it. If you’re a straight 5, and you want a 9, you don’t necessarily need $, Status, or looks, but you do need to be pretty “cool” in one sense or another.
The whole is more than the sum of its parts. Piecemeal tidbits of game and memorized routines are not enough.
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P.S. – Some gamesmen may disagree, but if your level of coolness is maxed out, and its not getting the job done, there is nothing wrong with working even harder to up your money, status, or looks (gym)…. How bad do you want it? Those qualities always help and are within your control.
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Some gamesmen may disagree, but if your level of coolness is maxed out, and its not getting the job done, there is nothing wrong with working even harder to up your money, status, or looks (gym)….
there is no need to take pot-shots like this
i don’t think any “gamesmen” here deny the virtues of money or looks/fitness
actually, can you cite a single one who does, ever, in the entire world?
roosh is down in colombia or some such shithole and he is still bench-pressing waterjugs and sprinting miles so he can better master the pussy of homeless girls.
if “your level of coolness is maxed out”, you are a warcraft-playing omega. in fact, you betray an allegiance (or even worse, a SYMPATHY!!) to such a band with this prideful statement.
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@ Canon
Didn’t see a pot shot and still don’t.
No one should deny the virtues of money, looks/fitness, or status, … but I have noticed some commenters carry the attitude that devoting time to anything other than being an Alpha Cad to get girls is Beta.
As to your last paragraph, I had to read it 3 times, and I’m still not quite sure what you’re saying, but I’m def not a “warcraft playing omega” if thats what your getting at.
Listen, everyone’s level of wit, charm, intelligence, toughness caps out at a natural point. Game can’t fix that, but it can help you maximize the positive. Everyone should acknowledge their weaknesses if they are serious about self improvement.
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@Jerry
@Gorby
Yes, @Chitown needs to present a compendium of field reports that others can comment on. He also needs to lay down some demographic background, general geographic hunting grounds and wardrobe details.
If he’s 0 for 3000 then he’s doing something very wrong. Even loser without game should have scored more than that.
Unless he’s a 4 going after 10’s.
Sight unseen, I am assuming he is short and needs, therefore, to immediately move to Hawaii or Asia.
Yeah, short is the real deal-killer. You can be short and pull pretty well (7-8), so long as you lose Chiguy’s sense of entitlement.
He’s not *owed* 9’s and 10’s. If he can get them, more power to him. But if he can’t, he needs to up his game even more (and I suspect that he’s missing something in his game, for sure, maybe he’s not internalizing it properly, I don’t know), or he needs to get out of dodge.
Life is too short not to do this (forgive the pun).
Going to Asia would have been my first advice.
Unless he is hopelessly fantasizing about caucasian women, he needs to move now. The Internet will help him earn a great living in the Far East or Hawaii.
Totally great idea for any young man. Off you go.
I am also assuming he is not direct enough and/or off-the-wall enough to be interesting. He needs to present a list of subjects he talks about with women (and how and where he meets the women).
And a list of his expertise. Can he dance? Learning to Latin Dance (well) scores *HUGE* points and gives you a massive, tight-knit social circle filled with hot women. It also gives you DHV if you deploy it right. And an automatic “in” whenever you travel to a foreign city.
Sight unseen, I would advise him to never try to just be friends with someone. Women disrespect attempts to, for instance, help them get a job via LinkedIn more than they would disrespect a request for an HJ for $500.
Stop trying to befriend women, yeah, this is rule #1. But he also needs to find a male support somehow – a wingman – and to get out of this 0 for 3000 rut. That’s got to be poisoning his mind.
Maybe he needs asshole game.
Regarding the phrase “I used to have a beta mindset…in that I…would get angry if a girl blew me off”:
I believe I was a Beta when I accepted being blown off submissively and/or falsely assumed that I was being blown off too soon.
I think @Chitown is accepting rejection too readily. Maybe he needs to approach some women who rejected him before and show some shock and stand up for himself.
Recovering from rejection is one of the most important things to learn. This guy has all the chances in the world to learn how to handle it, too.
Sure, feminists hate men who get furious when they (the feminists) flake on them or get rude with them. But that is because they want men to submissively accept rejection.
I will tell the (thankfully few) women who reject me rudely that they have about 3 more years of being beautiful.
Well, you don’t need to be bitter, but you can hit back; but you need to keep your eyes on the prize and not be hostile. The prize is her pussy. Keep your mind on it.
Sometimes that actually helps win them back (but a feminist trained woman would hate me all the more for saying that).
Which is most these days.
One can argue that it is better for a woman to hate a man she has rejected than to be indifferent about him. The fact that he expressed shock that she rejected him and told her she had just 3 more years of having any power over men…can eat at a woman’s psyche.
if the guy is short, she just has another contemptful story about a loser short guy who dissed her.
The guy isn’t projecting Alpha. That’s my instinct here.
If I were with a tall young woman and a short Chinese American guy came up to us and started ragging on her for rejecting him in favor of a tall guy like me…I would ask her in front of him if it were true that she had completely blown him off just because of his height.</I.
Women do this. I'm not tall (5'10"), but I've been with women who laugh when anyone shorter than me approaches them: actually laugh. What did that guy think?
Women are fucking *brutal* to short men. Short men have to face up to this and just endure it. And have tough egos.
Actually, short guys can compensate hugely for their stature by being dicks. I know a bunch of short guys who score attractive women all the time, but they're more of the asshole variety. They carry it off because they're actually assholes.
Smart good looking men would like “uglier” men to tell them what the character of the woman they are with is really like.</I.
I've heard women I've been with say the most ugly, brutal things about other men. It really opened my eyes when I listened to them. You need a tough ego to deal with some of the dismissive attitudes women have.
It would sure teach a shallow woman a lesson to lose a good looking man because a less good looking man approached with a story about what she is really like.
But then the good looking man loses the pussy. But yes, even I have made comments to women when they say things like this. They backtrack pretty fast, usually.
I was on a date in New York once when I asked how her last date had been. She replied that it was really eating at her that she rejected the last guy but that he had insulted her in the way I just described.</I.
Hm. Interesting. I will ponder.
I said that he had simply made a point and it shouldn’t bother her. But she was really upset that I agreed with him that it was a point. Feminists want a world of “Rejection Without Consequences”. I had a feminist tell me once that women bore no moral responsibility for telling a man why she wants to reject him.</I.
Hah: while this is true, the women truly do treat men as objects. I have nothing against this, personally, because much of the time men do the same to women. But I just like to make sure women aren't thinking they're any different from men.
If more males upset the apple cart more when they get rejected, there would be a lot less smugly confident young women walking around New York thinking there are no consequences to flaky behavior.
The trick is not to show “one-itis” or obsess about any particular rejection…and not to get a reputation for being a sore loser (show your shock and displeasure at her “socially unacceptable behavior” and move on).
But Chiguy might use this tactic and he may come across as just another loser short dude with bad game.
We need more info to assess.
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@ Gorbachev
“Maybe he needs asshole game.”
Noooo…you said he felt entitled, please don’t encourage him to get asshole game!
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@Lily
@ Gorbachev
“Maybe he needs asshole game.”
Noooo…you said he felt entitled, please don’t encourage him to get asshole game!
Yeah, maybe not. He seems to really want it hard, though, and to feel like he’s owed it.
He’s doing something wrong. I just don’t know what it is. I might be able to help him out, but I don’t bang very many 9’s or 10’s as a rule here in the States. No 10’s here at all, in fact, just a few overseas (and wow, were they a lot of work in STRs), where I had the Foreigner advantage. BTW, Asia is awesome for this. He should high-tail it to Asia.
I’m pretty happy with having 7’s whenever I want and 8’s when I can. And I’m taller than him, and I have a pretty interesting (if not always exciting) job and I’m well-read and versatile.
10’s just sound like waay too much work, anyway.
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Gorbachev–
Yeah even though I’m of the school that holds that 10s exist and in enough numbers to be real (i.e. that grades on that curve), i don’t do 10s either. 9’s yeah. 10’s too much work for a mere alpha. Need celebrity w/game for it to be easy enough, seems to me. Super alpha. Or really mega money w/game for another sort of 10, not my thing nor am I there.
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I think the height definitely has something to do with it.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
But 0 out of *3000* at 5ft 7inches is definitely something more than that.
It would be great if someone on here who is in the same city winged him for a night and reported back 🙂
My feeling is he’s got too obsessive about reading up on game and tricks over focusing on ‘inner game’ and confidence. Or his feelings of entitlement are coming across during his interactions loud and clear.
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@chitown
See the bottom of page 1 and top of page 2 of this article.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/the-real-reason-youre-still-single/#more-3317
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Chiguy,
Two words. Groundhog Day.
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chiguy
If someone were to ask me (I am a guitar player) whether they could play Led Zeppelin songs I would say this is the deal you need to practice, learn these scales,ect.
actually, that’s an unintentionally excellent analogy.
see, rock guitar is nothing, nothing, unless you FEEL the music in your heart.
you think plant and page are legends because of vocal and technical virtuosity?
or is it perhaps because they build on a foundation of decent technical competency with raw mastery and channeling of the appropriate feelings and emotions?
things that make you go hmm.
go back and read my post on MINDSET, above, like 20 times.
by the way, the possibility that you are trolling, and trying to make truly knowledgeable people look bad (because we won’t have concrete answers “just do x, y, z”) has not escaped me.
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If you are young enough not to get the reference: rent the movie. It’s about Inner Game.
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As to your last paragraph, I had to read it 3 times
this strikes me as ‘funny’ because, as a deliberately arrogant prick, i definitely read my own comments 3+ times and revel in their brilliance
or, if i was that drunk/drugged the previous night, i can’t stand to review them. i fear the betrayal of inconsistency!
when i finish my climb to mt. alpha, i will cheerfully re-read all my blacked-out offerings to the world!!!
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Chitown,
In addition to Asia, another culture that caters to short guys is, not surprisingly, Mexico (especially if you have blue eyes.)
I am 5’5 flat footed (and so appear 5’6 in most shoes), so I’m speaking from experience; cute girls there are much less likely to consider your height.
Basically you’ll get the results there that you would if you were 6′ here in the states.
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@narsico – I am NOT TROLLING. Not by a long shot nor do I have such low class. I am just trying to get answers. I have been thru the ringer. I have been thru a couple of bootcamps and paid thousands to try and get this worked out -promised the sun and the stars and after the money is spent you are most lost than ever along with a much smaller bank account. Can you blame me?
In addition, I have done ALL that was asked of me. I approached like hell, I did routines, I did natural stuff, I tried Juggler statements, I tried Brad P horsegirl or whatever over the top things he suggests – it was a grand process much like all the rest of us have gone thru on a random level. None of it has worked.
What kills me is that whenever a guy questions people, processes, routines,ect that people use or say in this “community” you are looked upon as a heretic or just plain crazy. What is this – 1930’s Stalinist Soviet Union? Oh God forbid you question something…see my point?
I have no sense of entitlement – quite the opposite. My work ethic is something to be proud of …I wish I was proud of the results..lol..
My questions are real and so is my sincerity. I have been told time after time – “oh game is where it’s at” ok..I have heard that since 2004 and I still have not seen evidence of it…
Can you blame a guy like me for wondering?
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@jh
I appreciate the note but if “game” is so great than why go to Asia or Mexico? Is not game the great equalizer? Or am I missing something here? Seriously why even have any of this community stuff if we just need to go to another country where our $100,000 a year jobs makes us a top 1% earner? If so there is no point to learning this game. Right?
If game is so great, then it should help to eradicate being shorter than average, unattractiveness or anything that would be considered “not acceptable” to a reasonable level? Is this not so?
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@Lily
I appreciate your note. No entitlement here – just want answers. Yes I have read a ton and you are right have been caught up in self help. Hey I try what I can.
Thanks
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Chiguy.
Game works as advertised. Nobody’s threatened by your questions.
You are a failure in need of diagnosis and prescription. A potentially interesting case.
Tell us what boot camps you went to. Obviously they failed.
And answer the first @#$@$ question. How far do you get before you get stuck.
What. Is. Your. Sticking. Point.
Also, how hot are the girls you approach, are you psychologically and physically healthy, of decent physical appearance, and not broke?
You might want to post a video of yourself so we can comment on your body language. Or you may just say something that makes the problem obvious to everyone.
Here’s my guess: You sound too nice, too eager, too victimish, too weak, too complaisant. A sort of short overly friendly buzzing bee that gets blown off of set after set.
If you’d approached 3k girls with any hint of cruelty or rage, you’d have gotten plenty of lubed vaj.
In fact, here’s my prescription. I know this will work. Buy Tongkat Ali, LJ100 brand. Get on a 20 day on, 10 day off cycle. You build tolerance so gradually ramp dosage from days 1-20. Start lifting weights for size gain. Eat an 80% meat diet (fatty not lean) and cut out processed foods including alcohol. Join a full contact MMA gym. Cultivate your anger. Listen to lots of furious hateful music. Maybe watch some Hitler speeches. And keep approaching. Forget everything about game. Just go up to girls and be angry at them. Remember: You Hate Women. Act the same way around your friends. Even at work. Stop taking sh8t 24/7.
Hell son, don’t you have REASON to be angry?
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Oh hey, I forgot your visualization homework.
The Marines have an expression, “Be polite, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.”
Just picture it in your head, fight club style. In fact, try doing that on your approaches from now on.
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@ Chiguy
You seem pretty intelligent in your replies to everyone so I’m sure you understand why game does work, and the psychology behind it. It also seems like u should be able to implement it.
As to ACTUALLY implementing it, my advice is:
1. Do a little hogging. Stoop to a level where you could truly give two shits about the girl (you can still enjoy each other’s company and have fun, the two are not exclusive). More importantly, take note of how you behave, what you say and do differently. Get comfortable in this behavior, and gradually start increasing the level of attractiveness in your girls. Like most things, it usually takes a successful experience to get a real 1st hand feel for how a good interaction is supposed to flow. They don’t call them slumpbusters for no reason.
2. Be conscious of showing frustration, bitterness, and desperation. Have fun with girls, its infectious. Good things will come. Don’t make everything so outcome oriented every single step of the way.
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@Whatever – no I really do not know how and why game works. That was the point of my original post. I really do not. All I am told is to do this and that and NONE of it has worked.
So guys, how and why does game work? If I really knew then maybe I could figure out how to affectively pickup that hot blonde or busty red head…
Its never explained anywhere. Why? How does a guy like me compete against some taller stud in a bar? Game is supposed to be the great equalizer right? Well then how does it actually “equalize”?
Please I am all ears on this one….maybe it will help me.
Thanks
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@JB
You are a failure in need of diagnosis and prescription. A potentially interesting case.
I know I am a failure. Thats why I am posting. If I was bedding hot women – then why would I be here?
Tell us what boot camps you went to. Obviously they failed.
Mystery Method, RSD, Brad P and about three others…
And answer the first @#$@$ question. How far do you get before you get stuck.
It depends. Escalation is a problem. Women seem weirded out that I tend to be shorter than many of them (many in clubs and bars where 5″ heels). My age is problem too (I am in my late 30’s). They do not seem to like older guys (even thought I look mid 30’s). ]
I can open very well (except with taller women – they seem to think I am a mosquito or something) but it just seems to fall apart with escalation and when I try to get physical.
What. Is. Your. Sticking. Point.
My sticking points. Taller women most of the time will not ever answer back or if they do they just say something like “thanks” or better yet “why are you so short” I try to reframe but it never works. Disqualification tactics are bullshit. If she does not like you, she does not like you. Adam Lyons is a fraud with this.
Also, how hot are the girls you approach, are you psychologically and physically healthy, of decent physical appearance, and not broke?
I am very healthy. Full head or hair (expensive hair cuts every month), work out three times a week (still have a 31″ waist), low body fat so I have lean musculature, do not get sick, dress very well and stylish (think George Clooney with a touch of English laundry), make a decent living with my business.
You might want to post a video of yourself so we can comment on your body language. Or you may just say something that makes the problem obvious to everyone.
I will not post a video. You have to keep some things private and I am shy with that. I posted a video once on a forum and all the guys on there ripped my photos and put all kinds of gay porn crap on it. Never again…lol…
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@ chiguy
Go back and read the Roissy Archives and comments. There is way too much supporting science and psychology to mention here. But general game in a nutshell:
Girls want to be with a guy who is better than themselves.
Therefore, Be (and if not, Act like) the guy who is better than them.
If you believe you are better, and you communicate verbally and nonverbally that you are better, the girls tend to believe you are better, and consequently will want to be with you.
Game is simply the methods and techniques used to communicate to a girl that you are better than her, i.e. a catch she would want to be with.
One size does not fit all, … find the methods and techniques that best compliment your personality and style and use it on the girls that will appreciate that style.
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@Chiguy
I’ve only read up a bit about game, nothing like you are, but I think it seems fairly well explained? And it certainly works.
If you’re expecting it to equalise completely, I think it’s too much to ask. Some guys on here may disagree, but I think that even with the best game in the world, a taller, better looking rich guy with charisma is going to be higher up the pecking order.
Can you email me a pic of yourself? Full length? I wouldn’t usually be asking to be emailed but your case has got me really curious. I’ve set up an email which is my initial 3 times then the letters flx (all one word) at the web email service which starts with a y, names with a reference to Gulliver’s Travels.
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@ Chiguy
Just saw your reply to JB which you must have been writing at the same time as I wrote mine.
What is your feedback from shorter women? I’m not necessarily recommending that as I think shorter women may even be more likely to go for taller men than women your own height. Does it make any difference if you sit on a bar stool looking mysterious?
By the way, I recommend buying a very expensive watch, then even if you are older than the women you’re trying to pull, you have the richer older guy vibe going. Plus women like shiny things.
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@JB
You asked:
Also, how hot are the girls you approach, are you psychologically and physically healthy, of decent physical appearance, and not broke?
I forgot to add that the girls I approach in bars and clubs – lets say its 12 a night which is average – usually average 8.5 (so its high 7’s thru mid 9’s) – I rarely see 10’s and if I do, they are usually married or have a boyfriend or tell me to F#$K off if I do see or attempt to talk to them. Not very friendly souls. So I rarely see them or approach them if they are around. Not worth it unless I want to be told to F#$K off for just saying high or asking a question.
Also, if game is supposed to be the great equalizer, then why would you ask if I was broke? I though money did not matter with game…
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@Lily – I appreciate the notes but here we are again…I thought money and things did not work as well as game. I will look into the watch thing – kind of a talking piece I guess and a good idea – thank you. However again, this shows that game is facade right? The watch equals money and I thought that money did not matter that it was all based on pure female psychology?
Lily – here’s a good opener – As a women, how do you think game works on you? How does game make you feel attraction to a guy? When was the last time it happened? Does game equalize the guy with great looks and a great build?
Please let me know….
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@ chiguy
I repeat, go hogging to build confidence and feel what a successful pickup requires. Build up to the tens.
Additionally, a superficial 9 at a club is just that,…. superficial. She will be just as dismissive to a physically average guy with talking game as a nerdy bookworm would be to a musclebound meathead. Not everything gets equalized. Although both chances are improved with game.
With all that said, for a guy whose hit on over 3,000 girls, you’re pretty clueless. This unbelievable cluelessness combined with well thought out responses makes me think you’re either a journalist or in some female studies class doing some under cover work. Come clean and ask some real questions.
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@Whatever – yeah I am clueless. I admit it. So can you help me or not? You like to tell people that they are clueless….which is a sign that you do not know how to answer or have constructive thoughts…well you do “your clueless” you might be a PUA plant for all I know…are you going to come clean? ha ha ha…
I am the real thing – a guy in his late 30’s that wants to learn. Simple and true. Sorry if you cannot deal with it and answer me back with straight answers.
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You’re a high schooler trying to hit major league pitching if you’re approaching 8’s and 9’s.
Start with 5’s and 6’s, with no expectations of success — just enjoy the experience of talking to women and getting to know them, and don’t count it as a loss or a blow to your self-esteem if they aren’t interested. And do this everywhere you go, bard and clubs are high-pressure environments, but you can start random conversations all over the place as long as you are only trying for conversation. Don’t project that you want this particular interaction to end in a pickup — just stay in the present tense.
After a few weeks of this, you should, at the very least, notice a change in your comfort level and you will be less nervous.
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@whatever…again why and how does this work? Can you give me that answer or do you not know beyond..yeah just be confident…yeah that’s it…oh ok, I will be confident…gosh I cant wait for my next heart surgery I am confident I have an idea of how the heart works – awesome!…..get real man answer the question without being clueless yourself….
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@Chiguy
@narsico – I am NOT TROLLING. …Can you blame me?
Okay, so I’ll go with you’re not trolling.
I’ll spend some time giving you real advice, because you sound like you’re in pain and I hate that.
This advice is from a real “Former Beta” who grimaced and groaned his way out of ego-crushing isolation after being thoroughly dumped on and having his heart smashed open. There was never any beta more beta in a relationship than me. I was hopeless at maintaining the relationship’s sexual energy or having any power in it (despite not being sexually inexperienced or bad in bed). I had to completely ditch *everything* I believed and lo and behold, after lots of time: It worked.
But it was hard and painful and took a crushing amount of failure before it showed any success. I cringe when I think of how embarrassing it all was. The failed dates. Damn, it was like driving nails into my arm or something.
In addition, I have done ALL that was asked of me.
Not as well as you think, if you haven’t had any results.
I approached like hell, I did routines, I did natural stuff, I tried Juggler statements, I tried Brad P horsegirl or whatever over the top things he suggests – it was a grand process much like all the rest of us have gone thru on a random level. None of it has worked.
I have no sense of entitlement – quite the opposite.
My questions are real and so is my sincerity. I have been told time after time – “oh game is where it’s at” ok..I have heard that since 2004 and I still have not seen evidence of it…
Can you blame a guy like me for wondering?
Okay. Without knowing the specifics of what you do, or where you do it, or how you do it, here we go.
Advice:
1) STOP spending money on game. Find a local guy who’s successful and who knows what he’s doing and shadow him. Get yourself a wing man. Read and absorb and travel a bit. Get into a better environment. Whatever. BUT DO NOT SPEND MONEY ON GAME. I never spent a penny on game materials. I learned everything I did by research on the web. No seminars, no books (except downloaded ones), nothing.
2) If you have dodgy social skills (and be honest), learn how to be friendly with women, but not try to pick them up. Why? If your social skills are poor, all the game in the world won’t mean shit. IGNORE womens’ advice about how to romance women, but learning how to deal with them one-on-one as human beings and be *intimate* with them as *friends* helps you be a better human. Practically, it means you can deal with a target’s friends and family better.
My social skills were always good, and people always liked me and I was generally popular in groups (the fun guy, the funny guy, …) – if not the guy women wanted to date, the guy they loved being friends with. Those skills still work for me. You need those first.
3) Be genuine. Be yourself, just add game in layers. Don’t try to be someone you’re not. This is the point: ABSORB game, the attitude: make it YOU. So it comes naturally.
4) Try inventing your own stuff. Internalize the attitude, focus on the frame. Do things that are appropriate for you.
Don’t rely on canned approaches. Experiment. Personally, I experiment with anything. I’ll try *anything* once. I’ve done some pretty crazy shit. Now, I have no shame.
Example: About a year after I started seriously chasing skirt, I was dating a woman (no sex yet, but close); I was hopelessly attracted to her and was struggling. She was younger and prettier than most I had any luck with. I knew that chances were this was going to be a hard battle.
She annoyed me a lot (shit tests galore already, flaking like a pastry), and I was barely passing her tests. I saw a chance, though, in carefully calculated inspiration doing something that initially struck me as bizarre.
When we went out one weekend, with no intimate relationship yet, just lots of innuendo and interest, we sat with a group of her friends. One friend was about the same level of attractiveness as she was (other people thought), but I found less so, and she was also not my type. But she was obviously relatively slutty.
I gamed her friend as hard as I could and had huge amounts of casual sex with her over a week. I’m sure she talked.
Girl A should have dropped me like a hot potato, right? I gave it two months, stayed in contact, and then played Girl A again. We ended up in a 3-month relationship. BUT I had the tacit threat of “I can easily fuck one of your friends” hanging over her now. She was absurdly pliant and agreeable with me when we were seeing each other. I had *all* of the relationship power.
I’m not particularly proud of it, but fucking her friend senseless was ACTUALLY how I subjugated Girl A. Her friend didn’t want anything else from me, so it all worked out exactly as it should. Immoral? How? Easy? Her friend was easy, and I didn’t even want to be there.
Where’d I get this idea? From a book about turn-of-the-century French painters I leafed through when I was bored.
Invent your own shit and experiment. Do *anything* and see if it works, short of actual violence or something illegal.
You need to absorb this stuff, not just study it.
5) *CAREFULLY* choose your millieu – you really want to avoid places where you’re unlikely to score. Bars don’t work? Try clubs. Try a sport. Try anything. Seriously, I’d never, ever score in some situations, and in a limited few I could practically walk out with any woman I wanted. I have to admit that *most* situations wouldn’t be appropriate for me.
The most unlikely pickup I ever did was a bank lineup, in front of a lot of stodgy people watching me. It was totally unlikely to work but it did. Weddings are great for me, too, almost too easy, and some kinds of mixed work function goes down well. But not all of them.
My job (in media) sounds awesome and seems really cool, but it’s actually a lot of drudgery and sitting around and massaging egos and technical work. People in my industry aren’t impressed – they’re all fighting like amoral hyenas for pieces of the pie, and unless I have huge power or status, they don’t give a fuck. People way outside my industry don’t know what to make of it, so it’s often neither here nor there for them. It’s cool, but I’m not rich, so it doesn’t mean anything to them.
But if I slip over to the *edges* of my industry, mixed-functions and parties or get-togethers, my job sounds awesome and I can open conversations easily and people are suitably impressed.
When the invites are passed around, guess which functions I go to?
Be creative. But be realistic.
6) Shortness
Dude, get the hell out of dodge. Go to Asia or other countries. Seriously, shortness is the kiss of death. I don’t care what the uber-players say, women stomp on short guys like no tomorrow. You need nuclear asshole game to be successful or serious money or you have to peacock like a funky chicken.
Shortness is hard to get over. *FAT* guys who are taller have more luck that short guys. You need to Alpha-Up in a serious way. If you can’t play that game, find short women. IE, stay out of Northern Europe. If you spend a week in the Netherlands, you’ll just kill yourself.
So pick your targets well. 5’7″ is on the shortish side, but not too bad; I know Asian guys who are 5’5″ tall, with no game, and *THEY* get laid from time to time. I know some who don’t. So pick your targets properly. If taller women from the Ukraine are all you want, either 1) get rich or 2) be the baddest-ass badass in the room and take no prisoners.
7) Lower your standards
You need to pick women who would honestly be interested in you. Then add 1 point in overall attractiveness and shoot for that. Score with them. Get some experience. Fail a little bit. Then try to add .5 to your work. Then try +2. Then try +2.5.
The big PUAs who sell shit are on to something, but in my experience, going much more than +2 about your level of PHYSICAL attractiveness is difficult and you need tight, focused game with obvious signs of success and you need to be genuine because hot girls can smell it a mile away.
8) Avoid lawyers. Female lawyers are generally very cunty and, while they fuck like monsters, they’re awful people. Same for most male lawyers. They tool others for a living. Nurses: they want money and stability. Female cops: Theyr’e alpha to the max themselves. You need to out-alpha all of their work buddies, and state troopers are not to be messed with.
9) Try going on vacation to places with women you might like. Do whatever you need to to score. DO NOT spend money on them.
Try these things. See if they work.
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Well Chi you’re answering the questions now. I’m convinced you’re not a troll. Glad to hear somebody honestly admit failure too.
Who was the instructor at your RSD boot camp? What were the other three boot camps?
How long can you stay in set? Do you have a normal social life, with real life friends, male and attractive females? When are you trying to escalate, and how? Are you approaching only in nightclubs or during normal everyday life? What is your sexual history prior to Game? During Game?
You’re not in a position to call anyone a fraud in Game. You’re at level one. Game has many levels. What’s applicable at higher levels may not work for you. Money matters at level one game. Every scrap of value matters, because you will suck. Duh.
If everybody ripped on your video last time, maybe there is something seriously wrong. I think you’re overestimating the privacy loss, and underestimating the potential gain.
What books on Game have you read? I want to know this, to know what books you haven’t read. I’m shocked you’re so invested and yet don’t know how Game works at all on a theoretical level. It seems you have some major holes in your education. Just reading Roissy’s site in its entirety should be quite enlightening.
Finally, are you willing to try the anger management method I outlined above? I think it would shortcut a lot of theoretical education for you.
Now you’re beginning to sound like a (Game) maleducated social robot. Further answers to the questions above will continue to enlighten and improve diagnostic accuracy.
To answer your incessant questioning, yes. Game works beyond your wildest dreams, no matter what handicaps you have. And I’m not selling anything.
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chi, my response is in moderation, check back or continue this at my blog.
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specifically, chi – leave a comment at my blog and I will communicate with you from there.
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@Chiguy
I’m obviously not the right person to defend game being a great equaliser as I am not a man, a game practicer nor have I read up on it to the extent you have or gone on courses! My advice to you was just trying to help you pull women, with disregard to whether my advice is technically game or not (though I’m sure most men on here will say don’t take any dating advice from any women even if I’m the last person to say ‘act nice’ hah hah).
Obviously game works. But say you were great at game, would it equalise you with a tall, better looking, richer guy *with charisma*? Again, I’m not the best qualified to comment. Personally, I don’t think it would. And I don’t think it hurt mystery’s success that he’s actually tall, dark and handsome and looks a bit like johnny depp in pirates of the caribbean. And at the time he got big, he was in his twenties. Oh I wonder whether the timing correlates to pirates in the movie theatres.
Does game work on me? Well actually I only found out about it a few months ago. But now can look back and see where people used it on me. I’d say good game works on me, bad game doesn’t. Bad game is the worst, especially if someone is hassling you.
Do send me a pic, obviously you don’t have anything except my word that I will treat it with privacy, and you can’t judge someone’s character over the internet, but you can send it from an anonymous account so I don’t have your name and I don’t have a blog.
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@JB
You are a failure in need of diagnosis and prescription. A potentially interesting case.
What city are you in? There’s got to be someone who can help you out.
Tell us what boot camps you went to. Obviously they failed.
Yup.
All of JB’s advice below is good. You might want to asshole up. It works. But only if you asshole up in the right way. Otherwise, you just look like an asshole.
Listen to JB here.
And answer the first @#$@$ question. How far do you get before you get stuck.
What. Is. Your. Sticking. Point.
Also, how hot are the girls you approach, are you psychologically and physically healthy, of decent physical appearance, and not broke?
You might want to post a video of yourself so we can comment on your body language. Or you may just say something that makes the problem obvious to everyone.
Here’s my guess: You sound too nice, too eager, too victimish, too weak, too complaisant. A sort of short overly friendly buzzing bee that gets blown off of set after set.
If you’d approached 3k girls with any hint of cruelty or rage, you’d have gotten plenty of lubed vaj.
In fact, here’s my prescription. I know this will work. Buy Tongkat Ali, LJ100 brand. Get on a 20 day on, 10 day off cycle. You build tolerance so gradually ramp dosage from days 1-20. Start lifting weights for size gain. Eat an 80% meat diet (fatty not lean) and cut out processed foods including alcohol. Join a full contact MMA gym. Cultivate your anger. Listen to lots of furious hateful music. Maybe watch some Hitler speeches. And keep approaching. Forget everything about game. Just go up to girls and be angry at them. Remember: You Hate Women. Act the same way around your friends. Even at work. Stop taking sh8t 24/7.
Hell son, don’t you have REASON to be angry?
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@ Gorb
I’m beginning to suspect he’s just gotten bad instruction, taking him down the social robot path instead of learning psychological fundamentals and inner game.
But seriously, the point of asshole game is to look like an asshole. It’s a low percentage game, but he’s at 0% now. How could he go about it in the wrong way? Doing it wrong is the point. Asshole = wrong. The frisson of being wrong, and not getting beaten down, is progress in itself.
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There is no wrong way to do asshole game for beginners. Make girls cry. Make your mom cry. Buy a little of kittens and kill them creatively. Really, the sky’s the limit. Remember: SERIAL KILLERS GET LAID.
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“I forgot to add that the girls I approach in bars and clubs – lets say its 12 a night which is average – usually average 8.5 (so its high 7′s thru mid 9′s) – I rarely see 10′s and if I do, they are usually married or have a boyfriend or tell me to F#$K off if I do see or attempt to talk to them. Not very friendly souls. So I rarely see them or approach them if they are around. Not worth it unless I want to be told to F#$K off for just saying high or asking a question.”
Hmm, what points out of 10 would you give yourself? And are these girls seeing you hit on 11 other women in the same bar? Game or no game, some things are just common sense and I wouldn’t have thought I’d have to ask (but we have an old English saying about common sense not being very common..)
Do you have a wing or are you on your own?
What sort of questions are you asking them?
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Oh and ignore advice from Lily, and any other female on this forum, about game.
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@Chiguy
I gave a response earlier as well, its still in moderation.
I will never claim to know what the female desires, but there is enough evidence to know that they like men with power. Power can come in many forms. Through wealth, status, fame, physical strength, strength of character, intelligence, even humor, etc.
They are also attracted to guys who are better than them in some way.
Game is simply a collection methods and techniques that communicate both verbally and non-verbally to the girl that you are better than her, i.e. “a catch”. Parts of game may be fabricated and calculated, but they trigger natural responses.
Finally, you can’t just be someone you’re not. Incorporate the methods that fit best with you’re own natural style and personality. Accentuate the positive…. and remember that everyone has trouble with 9’s and 10’s. Nature is not being replaced anytime soon.
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“Oh and ignore advice from Lily, and any other female on this forum, about game.”
Hah hah, knew that was coming 🙂 But as I said my advice wasn’t game, I’m not in a position to do that.
Chiguy, will you take part in an experiment? Go buy yourself a shiny 3-5k watch and wear it with your suit and try that for a week. And sit on a bar stool, don’t go wandering around the bar. Be confident and charismatic. And fun and positive.
Then the next week, stop wearing the watch and pretend to be a serial killer. Make sure to call your mother up first from outside the bar and make her cry. Be really mean to any women you meet, say you like nothing better than choking a woman in bed, though you’re still working on optimal ways to dispose of bodies.
At the end of the second week, please come back and report your statistics.
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@ lily
He should have been doing that the past 3,000 approaches. Tinkering with different methods.
@ Chiguy
All 3,000 aproaches are not identical, you weren’t able to notice at least a few instances that yielded positive reactions at least??
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Lily you dumb bitch, thanks for demonstrating you know nothing about Game, how to construct an argument, or what actually appeals to women, including yourself. Par for the course.
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@JB
“Dumb bitch?”
*raises eyebrows* Really, there isn’t a need for that. I’m obviously so dumb I missed out the part where I was supposedly in an argument. But if you don’t like what I have to say, ignore it, no need to insult me.
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@Lily – I appreciate the note to buy a 3-5K watch but I cannot afford a watch like that now. I honestly think it would make me look like a “braggert” or something so I do not know if that would be me – call it Protestant humility….
Not one answer here has been given on why game works? The how it works I can understand but where is the why?
Why would game work on a hot women as opposed to a tall good looking guy? This community always claims that game is so great yet NO ONE will say how it works? Women love strength? Well why do they date losers that are drug addicts, coke heads and the like? That is utter weakness…they love leadership? Why do they stay with weak men or hang out with guys that show little initative or backbone? ….I guess they are questions for the ages…
I though this was supposed to be a good blog for this game stuff….were is the proof in the pudding as they say?
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Nice fighting withdrawal. Yes, there isn’t any need for you.
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Chi –
1. click on my name above.
2. comment on the blog so i know you’re there.
3. i will help you.
Otherwise, there’s nothing I can do.
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@Chiguy
I suggested the watch based on what you said about yourself (I certainly wouldn’t have suggested it if you say an artist in your early twenties). It doesn’t have to be that expensive, but if you’re a well-off businessman and you like wearing well-tailored suits and you are in your late thirties, then it be a good prop.
My feeling reading between the lines is that women for some reason are feeling that you’re creepy. Otherwise 0 out of 3000 just doesn’t make sense. Now, if you’re say a 1-3, short, late thirties guy hanging out at bars, repeatedly going up to 21 year old 8s and 9s (and ignoring or being dismissive of their less good looking friends) and opening with a neg…
I’ve got to say, I like to think the best of people but I can’t help feeling you’re trolling. If you’ve read up on game to the extent you say you have, then some of your questions seem rudimentary. And now you’re going off on tangents on well-covered topics on bad boys, beta providers etc etc. instead of answering questions from people who were trying to help you. I really hope I’m wrong on the trolling.
Will you post the city you live in or a city you are willing to travel to so that a kindly soul can wing you? Will you email me a picture so I can see what you look like?
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@Chiguy
Yeah I sincerely feel like I’m talking to a girl, or a really stubborn newb. Not a guy who has hit on 3,000 separate girls.
forget whatever courses you took, or books you read. If you can’t walk away from 30-something years of experience and 3,000 female approaches with some growth of any kind or knowledge to be gleaned, I don’t know what can be done. I don’t know a guy alive who wouldn’t have adapted after that many rejections.
Wear the watch if you can afford it. Protestant humility?? wtf? I thought you wanted to get laid by “The hot blonde or the busty red head”. Your discontentment with female mate choice is understandable, but if you can’t beat them, join them. First to go is humility.
I want to help you, but your questions are very broad and beyond the scope of a few messages. Go back through this blog, its all there.
The answers to WHY game works all lie in Evolutionary Psychology. Wikipedia it.
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@Lily – no trolling. It’s just that the answers are all over the place. Take a look at them. All the topics I have written about have been mostly re-iterations from other replies and the add ons from each…I am not the typical…one thing I can say is that I have a great mind…and high IQ….most things come easily to me except for all this seduction stuff….unfortunately its a great mind not a great behind which women seem to love more so…you can say no but that’s not what I have found…
No I am not going after 21 year olds…never said that and you added that – not me.
The women I approach tend to be late twenties thru say early 40’s at most.
I did answer all the questions – everyone from all people – please read them again. I question whether you are really paying attention my dear…
Where do I live – look at my name – (big US city?)…
Unfortunately I cannot send a photo. I appreciate your help but I have really been zonked in the past with sending photos and personal info. I do not have much trust via the internet in that capacity.
Do I have a wing? – sometimes but most of my wings now have girlfriends or have become married…
Anyway, thanks for the help.
Ciao!
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chiguy
pay no attention to the old woman. instead, douse yourself in poor-form tattoo ink, reinvest your 401k into penny stocks, and book eight-day cruises for every week of the next three years. if you have any loot left, allow me to recommend elective surgery for biceps implants.
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Lol Chi are you actually going to decline my offer of help?
Did you not note two people, including myself, saying they wrote long comments to you that are stuck in comment moderation? This is not the right forum.
That is why I proposed to move to my blog to discuss.
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Lily, I fear I may have done you a disservice by leaving you with the impression that I was merely insulting you, and that you are not, in fact, a dumb bitch. Let me break it down.
1. Dumb
You admit that you know little about game, as a woman you by definition have never practiced game, yet you give reams of game advice to a newb who might actually take it.
2. Bitch
Evolution has caused you to subconsciously believe that mere possession of ovaries gives you value in every situation, causing you to run your mouth ad nauseum.
3. Dumb + Bitch
You dispute my point by constructing a strawman and proposing an empirical test, then when called on it, deny you were arguing.
As you can see, this is not an insult, merely a description.
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@Gorby and Johnny Five
Gorby writes: try your own stuff and experiment,
Johnny Five:
the pimp reaction:
* how cute, she’s going out of her way to impress guys like me.
* she must want it pretty bad. she’s displaying her résumé pretty aggressively — i bet i can make her work harder for less remuneration.””
I took both these approaches to heart and re-gamed a hot medical student in my social circle last night…and gamed two other girls who I’d previously had no success with.
1) Just approached med student, sat down, arm around her, negged her dress, pulled her on dance floor, said: “You dress better than you dance, if you keep that up, I don’t think I’d want you operating on me.”
Amazing how this shit works. Far from running away, she’s intrigued. Keeps it going. Then I took J5’s advice. Figured why push, if she’s in the circle, I’ll see her again, no need to get needy and number close….amp it up over time.
Also, dancing is perfect for building attraction. Apart from the kino, there’s also “pre-selection”—being seen with other hotties and “protection” if you can navigate around without her worrying you’re going to plough into someone, it only increases your value.
For the second one, a harder case similar to Gorby’s story above, I played it way cool. Offered her my beer–pulled it away….”it’s a man’s drink”. Push/pull.
Then when she shit-tested me trying to goad me into complimenting her beauty, I translated the song, blathered about and did everything but answer directly.
Funny how that suddenly makes me seem more interesting, and I didn’t really do anything.
Then I realized she was hopelessly insecure about her dancing so I said: “you keep doing THAT, and we’ll dance more.” We hadn’t had contact for several weeks.
Again…I was just experimenting. “What what what??? Do what?” She couldn’t shut up. Hair brushing, doggie dinner bowl eyes.
Finally, end of night, I came by to say goodnight to my budding harem. Kiss on cheek to hard case. Again she gives me the “What, what should I keep doing.”
I pulled a page from the J5 Kiss close. Looked at her…put my thumb on her lower lip, brushed it, stared at her, then suddenly pulled away and walked out.
That split second when I did that, the look on her face was priceless. It went from spazzy “What what”…to hypnotized.
J5 had said draw it out. Make them work for it. Make them want it.
A bit trial and error and many false starts but what I also realized is that when you’re gaming, if you can keep up that sex vibe somehow, even if you’re striking out, you can come back and re-game if you give it some time and distance.
These are newer insights for me. The instant number-close/k-close…is one way.
Drawing it out in social circle game is another way.
In both situations INNER GAME is vital.
To Chiguy, game is a tool box, it’s a journey not a destination.
You don’t need to be looking to get somewhere each time.
I love Gorby’s story about banging the slutty friend in front of the target.
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@JB
@Chiguy,
@ Gorb
I’m beginning to suspect he’s just gotten bad instruction, taking him down the social robot path instead of learning psychological fundamentals and inner game.
I think so, too. I’m also going to guess that he’s Asian (Shortness, moniker, overall attitude). A lot of Asian guys who learn game learn it this way, in a kind of rote mechanical style: I don’t know why. I think there have to be fundamental social skills missing. Game is a layer on top of good social skills. Without the foundation, I can’t see how game would look anything but try-hard, greasy and creepy.
I’m guessing this has to be the case. It’s not a lost cause, but it needs serious, serious social exposure and a step-back.
He’s also too goal-focused. A lot of this stuff is just brownian-motion social fluidity. You need that, too.
But seriously, the point of asshole game is to look like an asshole. It’s a low percentage game, but he’s at 0% now. How could he go about it in the wrong way? Doing it wrong is the point. Asshole = wrong. The frisson of being wrong, and not getting beaten down, is progress in itself.
This is true. But to do it convincingly, you really do need to be an asshole – but not an asocial asshole. You still need some social skills, a core of them, to not come off badly.
Hm. I’d have to see him to assess properly.
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Haha, Gorb, I think you’d be amazed how even when you’re totally lacking social skills, a certain percentage of people will just open up if you treat them badly.
Especially in our soft culture.
Chi is over at my blog if you want to comment without mod lag. I will turn mine off temporarily.
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[…] PDRTJS_settings_2245158_post_27 = { "id" : "2245158", "unique_id" : "wp-post-27", "title" : "Discussion+with+Chiguy", "item_id" : "_post_27", "permalink" : "http%3A%2F%2Fkoanic.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F07%2F01%2Fdiscussion-with-chiguy%2F" } This is a thread for continuing the discussion with Chiguy started here. […]
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Waiting for your reply Chi.
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@Chiguy
Most probably thought the Chi meant you were of Chinese origin, not from Chicago.
I can tell you now that you are clearly not someone who gets points across clearly…it sounds like you’ve been making women guess, as well, where you’re coming from and what you want from them.
I’ve seen no field reports…no examples of a specific failure out of an alleged 3000.
Do you ask women for directions on the street and it counts as a rejection to you if they just answer you and keep moving?
This sounds a little like Winston Wu of Happier Abroad who likes to claim that game should not be necessary if you choose the right geography to hang out in…except his message (a correct one at that) would be that most short men need to go to Asia immediately.
What are your politics? I have to assume you are a lefty. See what being left wing gets you? Dick all.
In any event, here is some more advice:
You need to triangulate yourself in a behavioral map by testing out the edges of the map.
1) How do women treat you professionally at work and at conferences and trade shows? They have to show you respect and even admiration there don’t they? What’s that you say? You don’t have the type of job that brings that? Well that is your first obstacle to overcome. By your late 30s if you don’t have a job that regularly puts you in front of women in your field, with no speaking opportunities at trade shows…you are in trouble and need to work on your career first and foremost.
Your inner game requires knowing that women will admire you professionally.
2) How do strippers treat you? On the US west coast, it only takes $200 to have a young 9 spend 40 minutes giving you a GFE (another reason for never marrying).
Your inner game requires knowing that women will at least admire you if you pay for it (if you cannot be damn sure that you will be admired by lapdancers, then work on this angle until you are).
3) Test out the Florence Nightengale Effect: if liberal American women are being untrue to their attested love for “minorities” and “disadvantaged people”…or if they just don’t count shortness or being Asian as being worthy of chasing as much as they wanted to date Muslim terrorist types after 9-11…then rent yourself a wheelchair so you actually can fit into their ideal of a “victim” they need to care for.
If a woman would not be friends with a man in a wheelchair, I wouldn’t want her.
Don’t worry about this move being a lie (too bad Ted Bundy ruined the broken leg act) because, if you’ve been rejected so much and still haven’t learned how to tactically and strategically lie when you have to, you’re a lost case.
Do what you have to, including lying, to get somewhere so you can map out where you are and where you are failing.
Example: Last time I was in the USA, I lowered my age on an Internet dating site by one year per day until a 9 finally answered me (I went from being 39 to 32 before I got a bite). Then I knew where I was at as a 39 year old on the behavioral map.
3) As part of losing your nice-guy view of the world, in addition to making sure lapdancers love you, put an ad in Craigslist looking for a woman to help you “research” the couple’s “Lifestyle” scene. There is no better zoological exposition into human sexual behavior than a couple’s swap club…which abound in the USA. Your status will become crystal clear hanging out there and the women will not be cruel. Just hanging out watching will do wonders for your inner game because you’ll see first hand how wrong it was that you ever pedestalized anyone.
As an adjunct to JB’s anger advice: I tried to note above that it is for your inner game and not your audience that you should be visibly shocked if it seems clear that you are being rejected (although bitter = beta if a woman is simply postponing a date she wants to have happen). For your own inner game, the next time you are clearly rejected, try asking her in shock why you were rejected. Make it seem like it never happened before. It doesn’t matter how she responds to this (this is a Hail Mary play that sometimes works, more often doesn’t) but your not expecting to be rudely treated will change you from the inside out.
Be angry that anyone would rudely reject another in this world simply for wanting to be friends.
Be shocked that any 9 would be stupid enough not to understand that (odds are) she will be a 7 in two years.
I haven’t seen you blame feminism in your comments! If you haven’t internalized a disdain for modern feminism, you don’t understand game, evolutionary biology and women will see you as a doormat. Feminist bloggers are admitting that they are not sexually attracted to men who agree with them.
Being internally disdainful of unacceptable female behavior will actually make it less likely that you will be constantly rejected.
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On the other blog @Chiguy has stated that women definitely reject him in bars (where he approaches many per night) because of two reasons:
1) They say “Why are you so short”
2) They don’t seem to like guys in their mid thirties (but I thought Chi said he approached women in their late 20s and 30s)
The latter concept is of great concern to me because I did well in Chicago when I came across as mid-thirties and, with dyed hair, I would still expect to do well, even with women in their early 20s, in Chicago, in my late forties.
You do have to show muscles (shoulders, upper arms) if you look over 32. Also, no male over 32 should have hair longer than a half inch. It just looks stupid.
But, otherwise, being over 32 helps a man play status game.
More advice: Ditch Chicago for Honolulu now….and prepare to go even further overseas at that. Shortness cannot be overcome in the Chicago bar scene.
Get out of the bars! This is truly the last place I go to meet women! The stupidest and nastiest go there. The shallowest women in the world go there.
OK, maybe if you are really good at game already and in a yuppie place like DC where Roissy likes the bars, but elsewhere bars are for shallow skanks.
Great looking guys with lots going for them not only don’t have to go to bars in most parts of the world…they don’t want to bother with the pond scum with low self esteem that puts on the 5″ heels to go there.
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@walawala
Thanks for the Californication video. I loved Duchovny in that; his character is several kinds of awesome.
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@JB
1. I was clear (as you admit) to the guy that I was not trying to help as ‘game’ which he said had not worked for him despite saying he had spent thousands on workshops from top PUAs.
So what if he’d taken my advice, it’s not going to do him any harm. Worst case scenario he doesn’t score (for the 3001th time). It doesn’t put him at risk of physical harm which if he’d taken some of your advice literally could have done.
2. It is nothing to do with posessing ovaries giving me any sort of entitlement. I say something when I have something to say, don’t when I don’t (e.g. weightloss topic). I don’t do personal insults and don’t expect them back.
3. My post saying tell girls you’re still working out how to dispose of bodies was obviously a joke.
The reason I was a bit sensitive about the argument accusation, that you I had actually been thinking about asking you to qualify the ‘serial killers get laid’ statement, but didn’t to avoid going o/t and everyone was busy trying to help the guy.
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@Lily what is the alternative go gaming women?
Asking them out?
Asking them about their day?
Being a nice guy?
Talking about your feelings to the girl?
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@walawa
I gave my advice to the guy in posts above. Arguably some of it could be considered game, ‘inner frame’, peacocking etc etc. I don’t think my advice was generally far off what other posters recommended.
I would have liked to see a picture of him though.
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@walawa
I wouldn’t advise any of the stuff you mentioned. ‘Whatever’ summarises things really well in his posts above. Learning and implementing game is one way, though of course there are other ways (being famous, rich, a natural alpha etc etc).
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@Gorby/Johnny 5 and anyone else who has a thought:Game Question for you….
Target, Hot med student, 8, excellent English, in my social circle dance night. Had previously been gaming for a few weeks: negs, push-pull, kino. No number close. She came out twice this week, we danced, sat down later, arm around her, bantering. She’s really nice, not bitchy. She’s also built for a Chinese girl…not fat but not thin either…for me she has a hot bod, but might be considered big. Good ass, good set of tits, nice long firm legs, all proportional, dresses well.
So following night she came out on her own. Gamed her and she seemed intrigued as always.
Then decided to escalate, so said more or less:
“Hey doc, I’m leaving, why don’t you join me for a drink?”
She looked really surprised. Her eyes widened, she was momentarily speechless and quickly shook her head.
Rather than saying ok, I thought I’d push it a bit and game her harder, so I said;
“You can buy me a martini, that’s be a really nice thing to do….” Smiled and looked at her confidently. The martini thing she had brought up previously some week prior when I was gaming her.
She was like “Uh nooooo, I don’t think so.” and was walking away.
I smiled and said: “Another time then…gotta go…”
She waved as I walked out.
I didn’t feel bad about this blow out.
The resistance could be ASD—it’s a room with people and leaving with me could be intimidating.
How’d I handle this? Was the wide-eyed tension this created a good thing?
I’m thinking next time I see her I just act normal the way I always did and not bring it up.
Any thoughts?
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re: Jerry
On the US west coast, it only takes $200 to have a young 9 spend 40 minutes giving you a GFE (another reason for never marrying).
any man who holds out prostitution as a viable alternative to fucking a woman who wants you, has clearly never been with a woman who has wanted him.
take advice from such people, accordingly, with a grain of salt. or, more appropriately, with a 50lb bag of rock salt.
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@Johnny Five
You don’t know what you are talking about. Like me you’re apparently a veteran, which is partly why I give you the benefit of the doubt, but you don’t seem to have the international dating experience nor do you seem to be young enough to be still active with 9s and 10s in the 18-25 age range.
And in this case, you really show it.
It is excellent advice to tell @Chiguy to make sure he gets along well with the women he could PAY to be nice to him, because if he can’t even do that, there’s a problem. There are tons of college students lap-dancing in the Chicago area. And, no, they don’t interact with all men the same. I would take him there first to get general feedback before hitting the more lowly skanks that hang out in bars.
But even while you took that point out of context, you’ve just gone outside Roissy’s viewpoint on this.
Remember: most opportunities to pay for sexual activity can come from asking total amateurs who have never done it before and many of whom are upper middle class. Most men simply don’t have the guts to ask (or they put women on pedestals too much).
Roissy has said that a 10 paid in some way is better than an unpaid 9. Google that.
Lap-dancing is not defined by most as prostitution, although I wouldn’t quibble with semantics.
If you would rather an 8 than a 10 on any given night, good for you.
Others still get the 10s while you (allegedly) get the 8s.
I haven’t seen you reveal recent field reports so I take you as someone who hasn’t operated in the real world for awhile. Are you over 60? And be honest about your ability to even have sex at this point in your life…again with field stories.
In practice in most places, 9s and 10s are not available officially for pay, but any man who knows how to make indecent proposals will tell you that $1000 will get you something cool (not intercourse the first time) with a surprising number of 18-25 women. Its just a matter of making the rationalization hamster work in the right direction. Google CFNM and BDSM and watch and learn how tons of men are interacting with the new generation of young women.
Again…you can get the 8s while they get the 9s and 10s.
And these guys who know how to ask and get what they want, will just laugh as you pretend to be “better at game than they are” as your 8 fades to a 7.
I am heading to the beach which is too bad because an argument with a self-righteous social conservative “PUA is About Getting Style Points from Other PUAs” would be fun.
The bottom line, dude, is how beautiful (and disease free) the woman you were just with was.
A Google search will find Roissy’s remarks that paid sex with a 10 > unpaid sex with a 9 > paid sex with an 8, etc.
[editor: no, i don’t think i said that. i wouldn’t have used such a compressed scale, nor would i have argued that paid sex is anything near as fun and fulfilling as unpaid sex with a woman who loves me. i would say, instead, that paid sex with a 10 > unpaid sex with a lackluster 7. however, a 7 who was deeply in love with me and worked hard to please me would be better than a single night with a 10, if a choice had to be made. note: i have never directly paid for sex. (all men pay for sex in some form or another.)]
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University of Washington students strip in Seattle…9s and 10s quite common. Upper middle class and superior to almost any woman I have ever met in a bar. There is a reason for that. $800 per night can convince a “good girl” to do something where hanging out for free in a bar is just plain stupid for women to do.
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I’m in a very similar situation. I went out with this girl for the first time some days back. Agreed to meet again. I texted her last weekend telling her I’ll tell her when and where, and she agreed. So i text her yesterday, and she says:
“Yes. Just tell me the time and place – i have a couple of friends who might join us”
And i replied:
“Sure, i would like to meet your friends. But i would also like just the two of us to spend some time on our own – they can join us later on. Does 7pm at XYZ suit you?”
Did i play it right? Possible implications?
PS: She hasn’t replied to that last text of mine. But that isn’t a worry for me, i know she’s just playing those games all girls play initially.
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@walrasian
“Sure, i would like to meet your friends. But i would also like just the two of us to spend some time on our own – they can join us later on. Does 7pm at XYZ suit you?”
A few notes on this:
1) I don’t think you want to say “I would also like just the two of us….”
Better would be: “let’s meet up beforehand for drinks, 7 xyz.
2) Asking: Does 7pm suit you?” Don’t ask girls questions, suggest: “let’s meet at….”
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@Walawala,
“You can buy me a martini, that’s be a really nice thing to do….”
Never say it would be a nice thing to do. How about:
“If you buy me a martini I’d be very impressed.”
If you want her to come out, get her alone. Don’t ask for her number. Suggest a specific place to go and a time. Say you’re going to go and talk.
She’s Chinese, educated. She needs an *excuse* to go out if you haven’t gotten her all tingly yet.
Indulge her and give her a good one.
Then game like no tomorrow as soon as you get her alone. Go in for the kill as early as possible; try to do it in a semi-public setting, but be “gentlemanly” about it.
Play Nice Boy Who Wants You Badly.
Disarming this one’s ASD is probably going to be tough. Consider that your primary obstacle.
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walawala —
1) how chinese is this girl? if she was actually born and raised over there, then i’m somewhat out of my element here — i don’t know much about the cultural shibboleths that one needs to open up the game on those.
2) i see a lack of congruence between your most recent post and the content of your last few.
specifically, you made her do the chasing for a while — but then you’ve suddenly done a u-turn, and now you are doing the chasing.
specifically,
why don’t you join me for a drink?
those three magic words — “why don’t you” — have just put the ball back into her court. moreover, if you’ve been making her chase you this whole time, you’ve just spiked the ball back into her court with dizzying velocity.
you shouldn’t frame these things as though she has a choice. just state a time and a place, with the expectation that she come along. if you are congruent enough with this — and if you’ve properly set the frame in your previous interactions — then, at a minimum, she’ll feel bad if she flakes on you, and will probably contact you with follow-up. then, you can start stringing her along a bit.
you can lose mediocre leads here, but there are a lot more fish in the sea than are required for a fisherman to eat a good diet. consider it “calibration process”, and move on.
—
note that the way in which you phrase things is INCREDIBLY important.
here’s another thing about the way most women think:
most women really, really, really do not want to do anything that is perceived as “abnormal” or in violation of prevailing norms.
therefore, to the extent that you have control over what seems “normal” in a given interaction, you can shape the way the girl unconsciously perceives these options. remember, girls don’t perceive things objectively — they perceive everything relative to the strongest influential opinion in their lives, whether that’s parents, girlfriends, or YOU.
example:
let’s say you want to start getting your girl into being amorous with other girls, for your viewing pleasure.
WRONG QUESTION:
“are you ever attracted to other girls?”
–> this question is too open — it’s not a leading question. therefore, there’s too much opportunity for the girl to be influenced by the prevailing notion that “girls who get on other girls for attention = skanks”, and so she will probably answer no.
CORRECT QUESTION:
“what kind of girls do you like(, when you’re in that mood)?”
–> brilliant leading question.
most girls WILL NOT want to break the frame by giving a non-answer to this question (such as “um, i don’t like any of them”). there will be a strong urge within them, if you pose the leading question powerfully enough, to accept this as normal and to give the type of answer you’re looking for. bonus points if the context reinforces the conversation (say, some group of hot girls, such as promotional models/cheerleaders/whatever, is in the background, so the conversation is more natural).
same goes for things as mundane as getting a girl to go out with you.
don’t ask questions often.
if you DO ask questions, ask leading questions, or preface them with influential statements.
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@Gorby/J5
“”Never say it would be a nice thing to do. How about:
“If you buy me a martini I’d be very impressed.”””
Got it… “I’d be impressed if you….”
J5… “”see a lack of congruence between your most recent post and the content of your last few.
specifically, you made her do the chasing for a while — but then you’ve suddenly done a u-turn, and now you are doing the chasing.
specifically,
why don’t you join me for a drink?
those three magic words — “why don’t you” — have just put the ball back into her court.””
Lack of congruence…got it. Solid advice.
My social circle game is improving.
Korean girl, known for a while, suddenly starts seriously responding to my game…major MAJOR IOI’s.
Context: I ask her to dance, her dress strap comes untied. I say: “We just started dance and your dress is coming off, that’s good sign…”
She says “Yah, you can help me…” and smiles…
After that staring at me all night, I didn’t hover or be cloying but came by near the end, grabbed as ass, she loved it. It was all because of game because I’ve known her for a while and never had that much chance to talk to her or if I did it was polite chit chat. This was full-on gaming.
Caught up with her a few times in the night, mentioned the dress thing…she loved that…stayed until the end.
Then: Let’s share a cab…
Her: Where do you live?
Me: That side
Her: Laughing…ohhhhhh…hit my arm…
Gorby, you know this one…this is Korean girl game, not to be confused with Chinese girl game.
Again the lots of people around…so sneaking her out, was not logistically possible.
But, will drop her a note along the structures of meeting up to watch World Cup:
J5/Gorby:
“Haseo, game on, am going, join me TIME/PLACE”
I’m going anyway so nothing to lose. Better?
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@walawala
@Gorby/J5
Her: Laughing…ohhhhhh…hit my arm…
Gorby, you know this one…this is Korean girl game, not to be confused with Chinese girl game.
She’s hitting your arm, along with major IOIs – you’re going to get laid if you don’t fuck it up.
Again the lots of people around…so sneaking her out, was not logistically possible.
But, will drop her a note along the structures of meeting up to watch World Cup:
J5/Gorby:
“Haseo, game on, am going, join me TIME/PLACE”
I’m going anyway so nothing to lose. Better?
“Annyong, game (time/place). I’m going. Come too.”
I’d say if you don’t go, you’re crazy.
She sounds like a better chance than most of your recent prospects you’ve mentioned. Also, she’ll be more interesting than a Chinese girl.
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@WalaWala
Women will allow you to move a lot faster.
When the Korean woman said you could help her undress, you were free to then start discussing what your place is like and how you would cook her up a salmon steak and throw some grapefruits in the juicer. You could innocently make “helping her take off her dress” into “and then I can give you a great massage – I took a short course in sports massage last year (a harmless fib you’d never be caught in nor would it matter if you were)”.
The important thing would be creating comfortable imagery into which she will be naturally imagining herself.
Once she has verbally put herself there, you suggest that she come by for dinner tomorrow night and you will cook for her.
It is good that you are dealing in the 18-25 age range. For those who date women older than that, a big problem is knowing for sure if they have a great body underneath their stylish clothes to warrant your wanting to have sex.
I always try to plan a swimming date as quickly as possible (2nd date or even 1st date) so I don’t end up getting into a “romance” with someone whose butt isn’t sexy naked like it seemed in her stylish clothes.
I don’t see much on this blog about the horror many guys experience when they game a woman successfully only to find a discrepancy between what she looked like in a dress at the dance and what she looks like naked.
@Roissy
How about this: What is better, a set of lapdances from a 10 or “unpaid” sex with a feminist lawyer 8 whom you don’t respect but just gamed successfully because she was the best looking lawyer in the bar. 😉
Also, choices don’t need to be made of course. The scenarios I mentioned were not either or.
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@Everyone
I appreciate all your insights. Sorry to be off for a couple of days – been traveling for work.
And for anyone out there that still says I am a troll…well I am not…I am a very discouraged and broken man over all this..the community and game as the WORST thing I have came across…I spent a fortune and so much lost time on this crap and it has NEVER yielded anything I have wanted to do (Ie date hot blonde, date younger women, ect)…even online is like pulling teeth. If you are not 5’10 or under say 35 – good luck. It really is the pits unless you want women with 10 kids and are 50 lbs overweight…
Game is a joke. This Game thing supposedly is the GREAT equalizer we are told. I have never found teasing, disqualification or any of that crap to work on a sexual level. Sure you can have great conversations with chicks and they will find you funny and good to talk to but do they want to fuck you? No they want the taller and/or good looking guys.
I am not Asian – I am as American WASP as there is….
What books have I read? Wow..here we go…Magic Bullets (that book really screwed me up), Pyscho-Cybernetics, Practical Female Psychology, The Game, Female Mind, Secret Garden, Way of the Superior Man,ect….I have read probably 100 books on this subject in one way or another…
Actually I have a number of good female friends and get along really well with them. One would think with female friends you might get setup with someone – very rare. Most of their friends are married or if they are single they were not interested. Why? I found out it was due to my height, it was due to my age (and this is even from women in their early 40’s)…
Moving to Asia? Not that simple. I have a business here in the US and need to live here.
This is my question – if game is so great, liberating, equalizing then it should work for me here right? Is that not the true intention of game – its to help guys that need it vs. guys that do not? If game is so great than why move to Asian or wear an expensive watch? For some reason that does not compute at all…game is supposed to be beyond looks and money right?
Any takers on this?
Thanks for your input
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Glad to see you back, Chi. I thought you were gone for good.
I will try to answer here, but moderation is a problem. If a comment doesn’t post, I will cross post it on the thread set up for you at my blog.
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Yes game works, you can achieve the goals you’ve stated and more given your current wealth and height, if you apply it properly.
You said you’ve read 100 books. You listed 7 books. I’d like to know the rest, if only by author instead of specific title.
You haven’t answered who your RSD boot camp instructor was.
Here’s my rough outline of Game theory by generation:
.1 Ross Jeffries
.3 NLP
.5 ASF, Major Mark
1 MM, DeAngelo, Deida
1.5 Juggler, Mehow, IN10SE
2.0 Hypnotica, RSD, Daniel Rose, Roissy, J5
It sounds to me like most of the stuff you’re getting is generation 1.0. I’d like you to list the rest of your influences to confirm this.
Game has a negative results curve “initially,” and depending on the student and the teacher, “initially” can last years or forever. Screwing yourself up is very possible, as is wasting tons of money. I’ve never spent a dollar on Game, just downloaded ebooks.
Right now you’re giving us lots of general complaints, very little specific information about where your failure points are, and sparse information about what kind of theory you’re trying to apply. More info needed.
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Comment up for you at my blog. This time delayed back and forth is irritating. I’d prefer to take it to email or skype.
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@Chiguy
Chiguy,
You’re a troll or you’re autistic. Either way, you get exactly one more post from me.
I’m going to assume one more time that you’re a real person and none of your talk is BS. And then I’ll tell you why you’re annoying me.
You say this:
This is my question – if game is so great, liberating, equalizing then it should work for me here right? Is that not the true intention of game – its to help guys that need it vs. guys that do not? If game is so great than why move to Asian or wear an expensive watch? For some reason that does not compute at all…game is supposed to be beyond looks and money right?
Response:
Look, anyone who told you game is the great equalizer:
It wasn’t anyone here. If some sheyster took your money and said you’d be banging your own personal assortment if super-hot tall statuesque 23-year-old blonde bombshells within the year, and you have nothing else on the table but game you uncanned from books and seminars, then either a) he was a great salesman and deserves an award or b) you’re actually retarded.
Game will help you do many things, but this magic trick you want is not one of them.
“3000 openers”
If you tried 3000 openers and got nothing, there’s something seriously wrong with you. A guy *WITHOUT* game would get a better response than you did. This makes me think you’re a troll, or have serious psycho-social problems and game isn’t going to help with those.
Your Tone
You sound like a petulant child. Seriously, nobody on this site or Roissy himself is responsible for your abject failure. Most of us use game in one way or another and it’s clearly worked for the majority of us. If it doesn’t work for you, then you obviously have more serious problems, deep and abiding ones.
ON THAT NOTE
Your bitter (or fake bitter) complaints about how game doesn’t work are empty.
We’ve asked you no end of practical questions.
– What do you wear?
– What do you look like?
– How do you open a set?
– How do you talk/communicate?
– *WHAT* game do you run? There’s all kinds of game.
– What responses do you get? Drinks in face? Laughing? Scorn? Polite rejection? Nice conversation?
– When do your pickups fail? At what point?
– You said you were 5’7″. Are you approaching 5’11” tall super-hot blondes racked up the wazoo? And failing? Well, d’uh. You don’t need our analysis for that.
– WHERE do you game?
To my knowledge, *NO ONE*, not ONE person here ever said you could go from TOTAL ZERO (which appears to be your problem) to SUPER 10. Far from it; I know I *personally* have always said Game gives you an advantage – but you need to bring other stuff to the table.
One Last Attempt:
I’ve worked very hard to bring as much to the table as possible at all times. I’ve also been very realistic. I’ve also done what’s successful for me, and experimented with everything. And I’ve taken *NO END* of knocks on my chin.
I’ve also walked into a room, approached women, and taken them home – on occasion. I even walked into a room and took a woman home after only asking her to go home with me. I did it after knowing what works for me and how to behave – SOCIALLY.
You are either 1) a troll or 2) you have massive, deep and terrible social problems. Game isn’t going to help you.
Go complain to the guys who SAID you’d solve all of your problems with game. No-one here offered up that advice.
HELP
Second, we keep asking questions. You just say nothing and complain about Game. If you’re not going to give us practical info about what you do, how you do it and about yourself, so we can attempt to assist you, and you’re just going to sit there like some petulant child, then please:
SHUT THE FUCK UP.
If you’re not going to help us help you, and you’re just going to whine like some pathetic and useless baby, —
Be a pathetic baby somewhere that’s not here.
If you want help, then step up.
If you don’t, then fuck off. You just sound like a thick loser.
And for anyone out there that still says I am a troll…well I am not…I am a very discouraged and broken man over all this..
Okay. Then *listen* to what we say. We asked you endless questions, and you don’t answer.
If you don’t want our help: Fuck Off.
the community and game as the WORST thing I have came across…I spent a fortune
You wasted your money.
*I* never spent so much as one penny, ever. Neither did any of the actual game-users I know. A lot of sad social rejects did – is this you?
Then you were sold a bill of goods.
It’s like letting a really stupid person into a good college. You’re just cheating them. They’re going to fail. Even if they graduate, they’re not going to get a job.
If this is you, that’s unfortunate. Try harder. Learn better. Practice. Lower your expectations.
If you’re 45 or younger, not ugly, 5’7″, and have otherwise good social skills, you SHOULD be able to be reasonably successful.
and so much lost time on this crap and it has NEVER yielded anything I have wanted to do (Ie date hot blonde, date younger women, ect)…even online is like pulling teeth. If you are not 5’10 or under say 35 – good luck. It really is the pits unless you want women with 10 kids and are 50 lbs overweight…
I know lots of guys less than 5’10” who pull hot chicks. And they’re not all that hot. I know older-than-35 guys who pull hot younger chicks. I know a guy marrying one. He has super game. He’s not rich or hot.
So either help us help you or fuck off. Seriously.
Game is a joke. This Game thing supposedly is the GREAT equalizer we are told. I have never found teasing, disqualification or any of that crap to work on a sexual level. Sure you can have great conversations with chicks and they will find you funny and good to talk to but do they want to fuck you? No they want the taller and/or good looking guys.</I.
Then you're doing it wrong
And you won't let us help you.
I have read probably 100 books on this subject in one way or another…
“In one way or another?”
You don’t need that many.
Read Mystery. That’s all you need. Read everything Roissy summarizes so nicely on this blog. Start there and unlearn everything else you learned.
Actually I have a number of good female friends and get along really well with them. One would think with female friends you might get setup with someone – very rare.
Then there’s something bigger and more serious wrong with you. You’re right: they would set you up.
You won’t help us so you’re trolling or you know what’s wrong and won’t admit it. Or you’re really that stupid.
Most of their friends are married or if they are single they were not interested. Why? I found out it was due to my height, it was due to my age (and this is even from women in their early 40′s)…
Women in their early 40’s *DO NOT CARE* if you’re 40 or 45. They usually PREFER it.
Which means you’re spouting bullshit or there’s something very seriously wrong with you.
Moving to Asia? Not that simple. I have a business here in the US and need to live here.
Then I have nothing for you.
If you’re butt ugly, unbelievably stupid, super short, socially inept, autistic or you hate women –
Then Game is not going to do anything for you. It may make things worse, because you’ll have expectations.
SCORE WITH SOMEONE and let us know how you did it.
GO OUT NOW and fail with someone and let us know how it went down (details).
Or fuck off.
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@Chiguy
Good to see you try to improve if you are not a troll.
Please don’t be obtuse in implying that you kept telling women your real age 3000 times without learning that its OK to tell some women you’re 35, especially online. A man will usually have already had sex with a woman before she learns of such a fib. You’ve got bigger problems than worrying about whether someone will get angry with you a month after she’s had sex with you. 😉
You have one advantage over most Chicago men in that 90% of them seem to marry their own age and are probably miserable at your age. In itself, it ain’t bad at all to have high reasonable standards…but, in your case, you probably are going to have to sell your business and move to Asia if you are to have any chance of reframing your life…even if its to gain confidence so you can return to Chicago a new man.
Your objection to that point was illogical. Game in the anti-male feminist US only gets many Alphas on this forum 8s. And they are happy and proud about that (I don’t know why). Logically, if you have great game, in the US someone who describes their situation as you do isn’t going to be doing better than 7s. If you have higher standards than that, you must sell your business and move to Asia….where you should be able to score an 8.
One glaring characteristic you’ve shown is an inability to get your point across.
It took you ages to explain you weren’t Chinese.
Women are very quick to reject when the man gets confusing as to who he is and where he is at.
Confusion kills in game.
Please remember that. It might be your main problem.
You didn’t answer if your business puts you in front of women customers or trade show visitors who would have to respect you as a company representative.
You also didn’t answer how strippers treat you. Never mind the irrelevant side argument about whether Alphas should “pay” for anything. Most readers of this blog are fine with getting lapdances now and then. I know there are college student 9s working in the clubs around Chicago.
The point is…are even strippers not enthusiastic with you?
The others are correct that you really ought to provide specific field reports…especially of day game.
I try not to go near bars as I feel the worst women are there.
Again, geography can be everything. My social life improved ten fold when I moved to Eastern Europe even though I was dating American women 20 years younger than me in the US. I would not live in Chicago for less than $100,000 per year if I wanted an equal life style and status to what I have now.
Today I met yet another 9 sitting on a rock at the beach. I asked her, innocently, if the water was clean. The conversation went smoothly from that to the Germany-Argentina game and a number close. The 27 year difference and my grey buzzcut hair didn’t seem to matter. It probably did matter that I work out twice per week (you do that don’t you)?
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Jerry you need to get your facts straight…
First I never said I told 3000 women my age. Where the hell did you get that? …I said that when I have come across younger women I have told them my age they run away. Happened this Sunday. Had a great banter with a young 23 year old very hot blonde at at 4th party then friend of mine told her that I was 44. She asked me and I told her yes I am…our conversation ended right there. We had been watching fireworks, I lead her around to play horseshoes had a bunch of good laughs. I asked her what bugged her about it and she told me her dad is 45. She felt creeped out and had to leave before we became
“any friendlier.” She was perfect too …about 5’2, big boobs, really thin…just awesome…Tell me how you would have handled that oh great one…
Another thing not telling people I am not Asian – sorry. Does “Chiguy” have to be chinese? That’s a bit out there…
Actually I have been right to the point. There have been a number of you that bend things. Do you not read these blog entries? I do….
Do I work out – yes three times a week. Still have a 31″ waist…but that is getting harder to keep with each passing year…lol…
Peace!
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Jerry – by the way…thanks…I know you mean well…
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Hi @Chiguy
Your mistake was letting your friends know how old you are. You have to bamboozle everyone and especially Facebook and Google searches.
Even East European women might balk if they immediately knew the guy they were flirting with was as old as their father.
Say 34 or 35 or 38 at most. Whatever you can get away with.
I would recommend you go with 34 for now.
Don’t worry about later…really good women do not reject a man when they learn he fibbed about this subject.
Except for American women. I’ve told you many times not to bother dating them long term.
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@Chiguy
I should write a book about the sex I got with young women in the USA after I turned 30…where the woman believed I was 5+ years younger and would have definitely rejected me if I had told the truth. Many US 18 year olds want to be fucked by 28 year olds, not 32 year olds. They are that stupid and entitled, so one should go ahead and give their stupid and entitled brains what they want.
I was 32 for a lot of women when I was really 42. There was a 100% chance of rejection if I had told the truth. In fact, one “Christian” woman’s father did a background check after I’d already deflowered his 22 year old daughter and it was a big family scandal. I basically said “too late asshole, as if it was any business of yours to begin with”.
I learned from this to have zero respect for American culture when it comes to dating, sex and marriage.
If they can’t handle the truth, they don’t deserve it.
I would have been lonely instead of in the dorm rooms of these women half my age if I was the type of guy who felt American women were worth telling the truth to on that score.
Overseas…not so much of a problem. My girlfriend of one year found my US driver’s license on the window sill when I was in the bathroom last month.
When I walked in the bedroom she was hitting the card and looking at me like the gig was up.
I looked a bit sheepish and shrugged. Then I put my forehead against hers and said something like “Who’s your Mr. Snuggles” (real pet name not inserted here). She loves me more than ever now. It didn’t matter at all, after a long relationship history, that I am only 2 years younger than her dad.
In the end it is only common sense. If you try something 1000 times and it doesn’t work, change the frame (in this case bend the truth a bit).
In the end, the truth did not get you laid on Sunday and you know for sure it was 100% because you told the truth.
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@Chiguy
When a woman wears a push-up bra she is grievously lying to you.
That alone should take her off any pedestal, especially the one that says women value honesty in males.
She is making herself appear a full point out of 10 higher than she really is. This is much more serious than how old you are…especially to you.
And you are the one who matters. Remember: you have to be an asshole and internalize being an asshole.
If she adds padding to the bra or wears a summer dress that covers massive cellulite issues in the thighs, she can be lying by a full 2 or 3 points (meaning a 5 can become an 8 in her clothes).
The thing about grievous female lying is that it is totally human. You have to accept that it will happen and not really blame them too much when you catch them at it. You could be fine with learning that a chest looks completely different in real life than when the facade is up. Odds are you will go through with sex after learning the truth. And women know that.
So don’t ever get hung up on how one of your fibs might get caught out. Weigh the risks with the benefits and you particularly should be concentrating on short term benefits to get used to getting laid, first and foremost. You won’t face jail or a fine and you won’t be required to give that 18 year old her virginity back. 😉
The good news is that I’ve found your problem. You are not evil and not an asshole and that is a huge mistake.
You probably compounded the problem by reading books with what some self-satisfied, politically correct ‘experts’ had to say who were never in your situation (wrote their PUA advice before they were 40) and who need to look like honest people because they have other careers in business or because they now have become domesticated by American wives who don’t want them to admit to still wanting to cheat or become sugar daddies on the side or watch strippers like Al Bundy shows most of us want to do.
Also many of these “experts” want to look “cool” to young guys with no money (a disadvantage the young guys don’t want the older guys to exploit) and no need to lie about their age (an advantage some young guys don’t want to lose to older male competition with money).
Also:
Learn Italian Game and Russian Game as opposed to the more PC American Game you’ve been studying.
To do this, find an alpha Russian and alpha Italian to coach you.
An Italian Alpha is going to tell you the truth is relative and a good Keno move is to unzip a woman’s pants.
I used Italian Keno last night on the beach with a 9 I had just met on my way home from a date to the bed where my girlfriend of 5 years was sleeping. I had brazenly walked up to her on a beach boardwalk asking if we’d ever met before (Italian Game = Fearlessness). I then talked about all the star constellations visible from the beach at night and she soon wanted to step off the boardwalk onto the dark beach to see them with me (I did not push this – a woman has to make her mind up that she likes a guy she just met enough to move off the boardwalk).
A rich Russian Alpha might look at you like you are from outer space if you ask him what the difference is between paid sex and unpaid sex. To them, if an American college student will strip off her shirt along with her friends for $300, that is a good way of warming up for a fun evening (let the women decide if this is immoral to do, not your own morals).
I can’t stress enough about how you should be learning from non-American, non-PC PUAs. Keep reading this blog and American material, but try to be more of a jerk on the inside than many American PUAs present themselves to be.
Don’t listen to anyone’s advice who isn’t now fielding reports of sex with women 18-25 which is what you’ve been targeting (although you might want to practice more with the 25-35 crowd until you’ve turned evil enough).
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Doubling Back is Necessary:
One of the biggest failings of PUAs, besides laziness, is when they rationalize that the 8, 9 or 10 who just smiled and said hello is now too far from him and walking in the other direction to warrant his doubling back to meet her.
This is pure cowardice.
Do not think “I don’t want to spoil a good feeling she had about me by being a jerk and actually trying to double back to game her”.
Remember, you *are* a jerk. If you’re not one, you are probably not getting enough dates.
Go ahead and spoil that woman’s feelings about you if that is the way she would take it if you doubled back to engage her. Nothing wrong with exposing a lie if that is what her smile was (very rarely would it have been except in cases where American feminists encourage a woman to be schizo in their Women’s Studies courses).
Very rarely I’ve had a woman go cold on me when I do this. Usually a friendly hello from a woman passing on the street is a HUGE indicator of what she will be like if you double back and engage.
And her smile or hello will provide the perfect excuse for you to say “Excuse me, you smiled and that made me think we met before”.
Now I know: This is much easier said than done. It takes a huge amount of courage to turn around and follow a woman who was walking in the opposite direction. One would imagine it would be scary for her that you turned around and stalked her down. But that is mostly what radical feminists have taught you to think about.
Last night when I got a hello from an achingly gorgeous, full-figured young woman, I almost let myself rationalize that she was moving too fast in the opposite direction.
But then she stopped and hovered around a souvenir stand. I then rationalized that she was smart enough to send the message that she was *not* moving too fast in the opposite direction. She had sensed that I had looked back at her after we passed each other. I figured that she was signaling that I shouldn’t just look back at her.
This turned out to be the case. I doubled back and did the “Have we met before”. She later told me that she did, indeed, stop at that stand to “hover” enough for me to consider doubling back.
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