Complain
Those two guys from the Independence Day post were swapping complaints about the ratio of girls at the venue. Little did they know, the two women they would eventually approach overheard their bitching. “Let’s get out of here. There’s nothing going on. There are no chicks.” Then, on a dime, they switched on their happy faces when they noticed the girls and decided to hit on them.
There are two problems with this seemingly innocuous behavior. One, bitching and moaning will infect the positive attitude you need to properly seduce women. Even if you are a pro at altering your demeanor to suit your company, the simple act of verbalizing a negative feeling can subtly influence your facial openness and attitude. Highly feminine and intuitive girls can pick up on that.
Two, and more importantly, you don’t want women you’ve yet to meet getting ringside seats to your dr. jekyll mr. hyde facade. File this under incongruency. When a woman overhears you complaining about the ratio (and more women can hear what you say in their proximity than you might imagine), and then gets introduced to your smiley, good times self, she’s going to register the disconnect. Why start a pickup attempt unnecessarily handicapped?
I suppose PUA gurus would call this “being in state”.
Argue
Men get argumentative. “Why would you root for Uruguay and against your own country?” This is often a fatal error. Women do not like to argue (barring the exceptions that loiter this internet outpost). Women like to win arguments; they just don’t like the process of arguing to achieve the satisfying win. Men argue because it is a natural part of our being — as natural as farting loudly and laughing in triumph. So men tend to project their comfort with arguing onto the women with whom they interact. Remember, projection is a cognitive bias of both sexes, (though a more frequent failing of women.)
Men may think that by arguing with women they are demonstrating alpha characteristics like masculinity, boldness, and assertiveness, but what women usually think of argumentative men is that they are annoying, bitter, and tingle-killing. Save the arguing for ugly or otherwise unavailable bitches you aren’t trying to bed.
Confuse Aggressiveness for Cockiness
Similar to the above, men have a bad habit of confusing male-centric aggression for female-centric appreciation of cocky indifference. This is commonly referred to as the overplayed neg, and happens when one has crossed the threshold from seductive backhanded compliment to vaj-shriveling awkward insult. The two men who accused the women of being “anti-American” are good examples of men who fell victim to this typically male foible. They probably thought they were being edgily attractive, but instead their edginess thudded heavily like a lead weight.
The overplayed neg is the bane of game acolytes everywhere, and it is why so many newbies give up and turn against the only solution that can give them hope. Once the neg is mastered, though, a whole world of delights opens up. A better way to neg the anti-American women and display superiority without off-putting hubris is by leavening the insult with charm. For instance:
WOMAN 2: I wouldn’t have rooted for America.
THE DEVIL IN UR DREAMS: That’s weird. Are you a Uruguayan spy?
WOMAN 2: Haha, I just think America isn’t as good at soccer. They don’t really deserve to win.
THE DEVIL IN UR DREAMS: Uruguay does not deserve a spy as amateur as you.
When I was applying myself to learning game material, David DeAngelo’s Cocky/Funny series had a big impact on me. As he stressed, you can’t have the cocky without the funny. The two go together to form a perfect union of seductive prowess. Cockiness alone conveys arrogance, the stink of the man trying too hard to impress or dominate. Funny alone is the province of the class clown, the entertainment monkey. But fuse them, and you have an attitude that is irresistible to women. Add a 10″ cock and it’s game over, maaan, game oveeer!
Leave in a Huff
What’s worse than getting rejected? Getting rejected and giving the girl the satisfaction of knowing her rejection got to you. I can’t tell you how many men I’ve observed get blown out and then leave the scene of the accident with a parting insult or a noticeable sulk in their body language. Why would you treat some random chick worth no more than a humid summer day’s condensation on a single short and curly to the pleasure of your petty meltdown? The best response to a rejection is no response. Say goodbye as if you were parting company with a gas station attendant.
Maxim #45: Before sex, no girl you are attracted to is important enough to merit an emotional reaction should the pickup attempt turn bad.
This is gold. Again.
Anyone learning game needs this frame. Cocky, funny, unconcerned.
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So true. Even all those evil, masculine, awful lawyergirls don’t usually like the actual arguing.
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9 minutes and u already have 2 replies.
Wtf
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That’s cause girls win the argument through ostracism. The saying said in earlier comments “girls win the crowd to win the argument, men win the argument to win the crowd.”
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Great distinction made on the neg, which is getting overused and misused.
Frame of mind is tantamount, as always.
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Timmy Dumples can complain the girl hasn’t sucked his dick yet and then aggressively kick down the door.
More mortal men must follow these rules.
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Re: arguing, I think that a good instructor is the Kyle Bradway character on Party Down. He never argues, he always amplifies a conversation. He’s not judging, he’s being pleasant to be around without being a placating dolt.
Though in DC, you will run into lawyer/PR/nonprofit chicks hoping to argue over something you have no control over, like waterboarding or Obama. Reminds me of the beta picnic story, Zeets didn’t argue with pinic-general-chick, he just shut her down.
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ha, nice Aliens reference.
I recently had an overplayed neg. I had to be explained why it was bad. I felt like an idiot afterwards, but that charm part is key.
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I’ve seen so many guys overdoing negs over the years, even before I knew what game was, and probably before they knew what game was. Guys neg girls naturally out of habit starting from a young age.
A lot of the time they come off like nasty, charmless assholes, negging the girl out defensiveness instead of gentle ribbing. I’m sure girls reading this can attest to this.
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Roissy: suppose one is a skilled musician in a band, with the musical chops to write all kinds of music. What content creation and promotion strategy should one pursue in order to obtain a pareto equilibrium of effort:poontang ratio? Ie one wants to avoid the extremes of being totally unknown on one end, and working extremely hard to become world-famous on the other end. Sure the latter leads to massive social proof but it seems like overkill. It seems to me that you don’t have to be nowhere near the world famous level of rockstardom (ie U2 or Rolling Stones or whatever) to tap into 80% (or even 95%) of the same pussy pool. I’m thinking a locally-famous band could skillfully use manipulation and deception to trigger the same responses as the world-famous level bands.
In short: how does a skilled musician use 80/20 thinking to get as much ‘tang as possible for as little effort as possible?
What genres are best for getting chicks wet?
How should one write lyrics that appeal to chicks?
How does one create the illusion of being a world class rockstar (thus having massive social proof)?
Any stage antics and such to rehearse in order to maximum effect?
How does one create an image for the band that plays on sexual archetypes (ie sleazy hair metal bands get chicks in droves through their daring peacocking)?
Would it be good direct game to go around handing out your CDs to chicks? Think about it, you get 1) instant DHV 2) comfort-building thru your chick crack luuuuve hurts type lyrics 3) contact info (ie band website) 4) make money from your groupies thru merchandise sales.
Why do I ask this question? Have I spent 10 years obsessively doing guitar exercises and vocal scales every day and am now looking to cash in? Naaaah, this is just hypothetical of course 😉
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Winning an argument with a DC chick actually can work to your advantage. Not so long ago, I got into an argument inadvertantly with a chick at a house party. It wasn’t really an argument, I guess, because I wasn’t accepting her terms; I reframed the discussion to invalidate her point. When she knew she was beaten, her eyes lit up and she began stalking me around the party. I was with my woman, and when the discomfort become too much for her, we left.
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Good Maxim.
Cool and intelligent indifference is the only frame worth having.
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This is the best blog post I’ve read so far (caveat haven’t read all the archives).
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@A.H.A
I’m obviously not Roissy and obviously he’s going to give you 1000 times better advice on gaming girls than me..but…
“Would it be good direct game to go around handing out your CDs to chicks? ”
No, no, no. Oh please, no.
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Lily: heh, OK. Better to sell them out of the back of your touring van?
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@ AHA
Is your band’s Facebook page positioning yourself as DHV? Good pictures? You need some preselection, make sure out of the band you’re the sexy bad boy one (every band has one).
Drop when your band’s playing into a conversation and wait for her to ask you for an invitation/guest list etc. Maybe have some flyers on you but have to scrabble around to find that last dogeared one (as opposed to pushing pristine ones in her face from the outset). Guessing you sell your music online in which case who knows she may even pay to listen to your chick crack before she even comes to your gig.
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When I was in my 20’s I did a bit of casual acting in theater while in college. For a while I was involved in an improv troupe that did occasional local and bar gigs for fun and a bar tab. From this experience I learned that one of the principle foundations of an engaging improvisational skit – one where the lines are dependent upon your own wit, not a script – is never saying “no” to a proposition offered by another actor.
Responding with a “no” or affirming an opposite, cancels the premise and stops the thread of the skit. That isn’t to say you can’t disagree with the offered premise (which is often pretty funny), just so long as it doesn’t cancel it and abruptly ends it.
This same improvisational dynamic is in play for virtually all styles of pick up. This girl was trying to be controversial and the guys dropped the thread with a canceling “no”. Roissy’s, agree and amplify response still disagrees, but doesn’t kill the conversation thread. In fact agree and amplify is yet another very common improv mechanism.
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@ Sam Spade, who wrote
“Frame of mind is tantamount, as always.”
You mean “paramount” (top)
not “tantamount” (equal).
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Roissy, this was an excellent post. I think the difficulty in playing cocky/funny game is that most men either don’t have the inner confidence to pull off cocky, or they don’t have enough playfulness and humor to pull off funny.
Also, re: complaining – I would add that if a girl hears a guy complaining about the quality and/or quantity of women and then gets approached, her bitch shield is going to be up higher than usual, because in her mind the guy isn’t approaching her because he sees something special in her, but because he’s settled for her out of a terrible lot due to desperation for sex. Women don’t want to feel like they’re the “last resort.” (Even Jane Austen knew this – in Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth Bennet’s bitch shield is at full force toward Mr. Darcy after she overhears him complaining to Mr. Bingley about how unattractive all the girls are at a local party.)
A.H.A.:
Absolutely NOT, unless you have some game to go along with it or some other high-status marker. Otherwise you will just come off as a clueless tool handing out his homemade emo guitar or lame garage band CD in a transparent, try-hard attempt to score chicks.
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Say goodbye as if you were parting company with a gas station attendant.
This is great. This comes naturally from having strong inner game, but it’s something that needs to be taught to men new in the game.
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Don’t get upset if you don’t score, it ain’t that important (if you go off, they’ll know they got your goat and that lowers your stock).
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Maxim #46:
Many of the people here will never actually try this stuff. Still, talking about it is almost as fun as getting laid. Amirite?
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Elementary game concepts here today, but then that’s needed too.
The only thing that takes some finesse in this is how to deal with the political posturings of lefty girls. Roissy’s example from yesterday (that he’s analyzing here) is just how. Neg them by making subtle fun of their conformist, status mongering views. This works if you want to play for pickup as well as just blow them off, as Roissy was minded to cause not cute enough.
But then you want to steer things away from politics, having established that you’re not going to suck up to their conformist views, though light teasing ridicule.
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askjoe–
Good aphorism.
As well girls most often only need to win the female crowd these days, men are so post feminism trained up by now to think the solid female group or crowd view to be essential to placate.
The girl “what she said” stuff is abt quickly forming this female group consensus.
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@ Doug1
Not just political girls, but any girl whose views on something are at an extreme will need a subtle negging.
I’m pretty moderate in most things and I find girls with extreme stances on things to generally be a waste of time unless my views are close enough.
The further they are to an extreme, the more entrenched they are in their opinions and the harder it is for them to acknowledge other views, let alone see the humor in a neg pointing out the flaws in their own.
Out of the truly contemptuous looks that I’ve received from girls, most came after I playfully questioned a girls views on a subject she defines herself by…. These girls are usually part of a similar sub group they use to define themselves. …and these girls usually have brains that don’t work well.
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Pure gold again.
First. Duh. Whiners who do nothing are beta. Also, being so obviously affected by her presence….nop
Second, trying to convey logical indignation is a massive gina killer, have found that by checking (and having enough social awareness to pick that up).
Third, I would say that most guys new to assholinesh see it as a license to let their pettyness and bitterness float up. Besides, is better overneg to be sure, right? Social robots don’t gauge.
Fourth, why? I don’t get it. Why so many guys care for random chick #314523?
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Lily: good tips, thanks! Would it be OK to wear one’s own band merchandise or does that come off as cheesy? Ideas on how to come off as the bad boy in the band? What are some good role models in pop culture?
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Gorbachev is so gay, always saying “ah this is gold”,”ah again”. So gay. We already know it is gold man, stop being so gay.
And there is times when he is writing, like, a comment-book, so boring and, if you actually read it, so gay and useless.
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Before sex, no girl you are attracted to is important enough to merit an emotional reaction should the pickup attempt turn bad.
You know, I think this is true after sex also. You don’t have to be Mr. Ice, but it certainly helps if you can be unperturbed by their stupid antics.
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Neg them by making subtle fun of their conformist, status mongering views.
I don’t know. Living in Sweden, where EVERY chick is either the socialist version of SWPL with Che Guevara t-shirts and red star tattoos, or the stuck-up bourgeoisie lawyer chick breed of SWPL, it’s kind of hard to do that, reason being that the chicks simply aren’t smart enough to realize that they could be wrong about their plattitude type opinions.
In my opinion they don’t understand that someone could have a different opinion and so they just think you are weird.
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And he speaks like a stupid fucking self proclaimed pro: “everybody should learn”, “everybody, I’m so gay”.
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Yes, I am gay
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You know, I think this is true after sex also. You don’t have to be Mr. Ice, but it certainly helps if you can be unperturbed by their stupid antics.
This is easier said than done though! These things are not coded into the rational hardware. There is a oneitis subroutine running in every dude’s brain OS. In fact we are severely overestimating the capabilities of the rational mind to determine these things.
Inner game has to be earned through blood sweat and tears. You have to wrench control of your truculent brain which does not want to feel as it should feel according to your icy logic.
Watch out for an upcoming article in Interesting Times called “Picking up chicks with the eight-circuit model”. It’s about reprogramming your primitive inner game circuits (biosurvival, emotional, territorial, social conditioning, etc) by doing outer game stuff. Highly innovative.
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AHA: “Living in Sweden, where EVERY chick is either the socialist version of SWPL with Che Guevara t-shirts and red star tattoos, or the stuck-up bourgeoisie lawyer chick breed of SWPL, it’s kind of hard to do that, reason being that the chicks simply aren’t smart enough to realize that they could be wrong about their plattitude type opinions.
Um, I live in Berkeley, the cultural and physical anus of America, and find it incredibly easy to do. These people are begging to be made fun of; as our Lord and Master put it, treat them like they are your idiot little sister. When they start talking about their organic biodynamic tomatoes, one up it and tell them about your free range cucumber making a superior salad. When they talk about driving their Prius, laugh about what snobs they must be (they will be snobs, and they will be embarrassed), and tell them they must be too high and mighty for a regular joe like you to talk to. When they talk about their imbecile political views, ask them to name three supreme court justices, or who the secretary of the treasury (defense, state; it doesn’t matter -they never know unless they’re ugly) is. If they have a dumb Che t-shirt, ask them who Che is, and what he did: they probably won’t know, or will say something stupid about him freeing the Indians or whatever, in which case: have fun with it.
I could pork hippies for the rest of my life, simply by wearing a necktie, being kind of a dick, and escalating mercilessly: fish in a barrel. They’re all dumb as a box of rocks, and rely exclusively on their feeeeeeewings. Fortunately, I have found better uses for my time, but don’t ever complain about the human material available. If you’re hard up enough you just want to get laid, hippies will do as well as anyone else. Swedish hippies -at least they’re not disgusting tubs of pork butter like American hippies, so count your blessings.
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I’m down with putting down hippie chicks as much as the next guy and maybe Lupo’s neg treatments work but from what I’ve read on here, if it’s a clique of coffee commies, you may want to consider your mindset to that of approaching hipster-d-bag scene chicks, as R talked about a long time ago. Being the disparaging outsider isn’t a successful track.
I have to recommend Party Down as a yin/yang example on arguing. Check out the porn party episode where Ramon can’t help but ruin a sure thing with a sex starlet because he has to argue over the true definition of scifi whereas the blonde guy ingratiates within the group.
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@ A.H.A
I only got to watch the first ten minutes of that googletechtalks video, but it was pretty good. I’ll have to check out the rest later.
From what I saw, it seems like it makes a pretty good case for the hypothesis that eventually strong inner game and frame can be learned and seamlessly incorporated into one’s self by initially making the conscious decision to act using the principles of good game.
I believe this to be true.
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Sindaq you appear to be a troll. Git!
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“Add a 10″ cock and it’s game over” Ha Ha another roissy classic!
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Nothing new here.
Also newbs get wasted too quickly. Throwing up in public is a turnoff unless you can boot and rally. If you get rejected and it’s a girl you will never see, make sure you hurt her emotionally… by leaving with a total dick comment. You can get even and it boosts your ego for the next target.
“Keep your dildo company.” or “You know… you shouldn’t be here… more gym less drinking.” Calling her a girl fat or chubby will always get to them regardless of who they are.
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@ The_King
There’s no reason to get angry at just a simple rejection. Its bad form. Making sure to hurt her emotionally over a rejection from a girl you don’t even know is the opposite of CR’s post today. That outlook will never do anything positive, and it sends out a sexually frustrated vibe that is an instant tingle killer. The girls decision to reject should have no bearing on you enjoying the night or your opinion of yourself, so it should just roll off your back.
Plus on rare occasions I’ve been able to salvage some of the coldest rejections by some of the hottest women, just by being un-phased and indifferent to it all.
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Add:
Mistakes Made in Closing
Yours, above, are “opening mistakes”, irritating but largely low in sunk cost.
Closing mistakes are truly fatal, and soul diminishing, as you cant un-accrue effort spent; which often involves $, emotion, time and regret.
A few
Not initiating:
after opening; many a man likes to coast; whether not keeping momentum in conversation, 2nd date fizzzle, interest, tension or respect. Give them room and they will hang the relationship, you, themselves or all three
Not Folding:
Gotta know when to fold them. When un-responsivenes or apathy comes; whether in day old text replies, non-calls or lies, you have to fold. Sometimes it works, nothing else does – they notice you slowed down & they didnt get you; they come back. Otherwise, most Men keep piling in, doubling down or buying more stock that is plunging. Soul burning, and future game crushing. This is the most malignant of game cancers, and it flourishes daily, as most men doubt their pussy gambling skills vastly. Fold and she opens.
Not cutting bait:
gotta have respect for yourself & your craft to cutt bait. Different than folding, in you must set a budget of: time, $, or effort (hrs/wk) that is required to lay any single woman. They know that meter is running, and drip feed you, and enjoy running it up, in dollars, opportunity cost of other women or the feared “toying” with you. Set a budget and walk away. Paying too much for pussy is the second most malignant disease, with divorce the daily market exchange of fresh losers.
Not being in charge:
Once you are not in charge, you are out of control. They will test you mercilessley to see if you are, from an extra appetizer to a flirt, or vague text of why they werent home; they dont want to be the boss. Once they see you are not; game over.
There are many more, but these are the crucial ones, that lead many PUA from the one yard line to abyss.
Recognize risk, mitigate and fornicate.
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“So true. Even all those evil, masculine, awful lawyergirls don’t usually like the actual arguing.”
The operative meme of argument is that men win status by arguing with logic and being more convincing than the next guy. Women (in general) nod their heads at whatever the highest status person says, and draw status by ingratiating to the “right” person.
One of the one truths of game is “don’t address a woman using logic.” Using logic with a woman communicates in a way she’s not wired to understand.
This is why I don’t understand why I meet so many women in law. The mechanics of law are logical argument and negotiation to resolve dispute or impasse. I don’t understand why that would appeal to a typical woman. Maybe they are in it for the power trip, or to meet men?
Contrary to the myths of pedestalizers and the proponents of female prerogative, women are not hopelessly fickle. Fickle yes, but much “fickleness” is confused with a consistent but non-rational method of decisionmaking.
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This shows all the potential for screw ups in a drawn out pick up, which compels me to ask:
Roissy, did you ever continue your experiments with the Apocalypse Opener?
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How about Teasing?
Any thoughts on that?
I’ve had very good success in generating attraction with it, even when it’s mercilous. But sometimes, the irony is lost.
Girl looking in mirror brushing her hair. I start imitating her.
She looks at me.
Me: Wow, so attractive.
Her: Really, you think I’m attractive?
Me: No, me.
Her: Come on!
That worked. Other times, they take themselves so seriously.
Any experiences on teasing vs arguing?
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Follow up question:
What’s the difference between “arguing” and passing a shit test?
Seems this Uruguay exchange is some type of shit-test.
Any other clarifications to differentiate “arguing” vs passing shit-tests?
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Teasing is the epitome of cocky and funny.
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I haven’t seen Party Down, so I’m going to comment about that as if I were answering a grade school essay question about a book I’ve never read.
What you want to do is neither argue nor ingratiate. Arguing is fighting over principles and ideas. Women take that to mean that you are fighting THEM. They can’t differentiate between ideas and self. And if you ingratiate it means you don’t have the strength to challenge authority. Nope, you need a third option. You have to not care if the woman agrees with you or not, unless her idea is in direct opposition to your short or medium term goals. And even then, the way women’s minds works, is that it’s not a good idea to stand right in front of her and oppose – you want to steer her into figuring out that she agreed with you the whole time, but just hadn’t realized it yet.
So you deflect. “Yes, but.” You re-frame. “So you like the confrontation that happens in team sports – the excitement of us versus them?” You use non sequiturs and conversational segues. “Hey that reminds me of this Argentinian soccer player I met in a 7-11 deli in Bali. He told me he could hook me up with an Argentinian passport for $40,000.” You use sarcasm, by agreeing and amplifying. “My god, I know! I just can’t stop thinking about this soccer match. It means so much to me, you have no idea.” You twist the frame into something she does care about. “You know, I might be rooting for Argentina as well, but I’ve got 3 grand riding on the U.S. kicking their asses.”
You assume the sale, and dismiss her opposition. Whatever she is talking about, she’s stupid, but you’ll play along for a while, just for fun or until you get bored or irritated or start fucking. Regardless, you are the one who steers the conversation – and through that her mind.
She is a pet mouse, and you are a cat. It’s expected that you’ll bat her around a bit, in play. It’s expected that you can, if you want to.
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A little old but chock full of gold:
http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/articles/male-midlife-crisis
Another shaming article that men should grow up and get married to their bitchy girlfriends. Read about these anal-retentive nutcases:
This crew feels entitled to fun; sacrifice is not in their vocab. They crave love like anyone, but they’d rather spend their cash and time on the latest iPhone and rafting the Zambesi, than on a wedding and curtains and raising kids.
-snip-
“I remember when I was 25, I told myself that by the time I was 30, I wanted to be head of my own department for a major cosmetics brand,” says Dana, 30, the head of global marketing for a major cosmetics brand. “I moved up quickly because I’m hard-working, and I push for what I want. But the flip side is that I’m always looking for the next thing. I’m never satisfied.” Often, that means working until 10 p.m., spending her Mediterranean vacation with a BlackBerry glued to her ear, and waking in the wee hours to read e-mail. Meanwhile, her husband, an engineer for an online search engine, is much less driven. “I have specific goals,” Dana says. “My husband’s are more general. I’ll say, ‘We should buy a place in the suburbs within the next two years.’ And he’ll say, ‘Let’s take it as it comes.’ That’s when I freak out and start yelling, ‘But what’s the three-year plan?!'”
Allison, a 32-year-old housing attorney, worries about wearing out her graphic-artist boyfriend, Peter. “I know my neuroses and tendency to overanalyze, and to push him on questions like when we’re gonna have kids, are endearing to him now,” she says. “But I wonder a little if my type A-ness and his type B-ness mean that eventually it’ll get old, and he’ll say, ‘Fuck this, I’m out of here.'”
The same thought has occurred to Dana. “Sometimes I think I’m just lucky that he sticks around,” she says. “No other guy in the world would put up with this shit.”
She’s got that last part right. Guys, don’t put up with this shit.
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“Men may think that by arguing with women they are demonstrating alpha characteristics like masculinity, boldness, and assertiveness, but what women usually think of argumentative men is that they are annoying, bitter, and tingle-killing.”
–Dear god, thank you. I hate to argue…unless there is mind-blowing make-up sex to follow.
Arguing with someone you’ve just met or are just getting to know is awkward and tingle negating. It reads as spastic and believe it or not as feminine behavior. If you’re in need of having to be asked to calm down or relax–you have problems.
I would recommend only teasing once she has given you full blown signals that she is attracted to you. I’m in a very international city and I’ve noticed that teasing can be hard to get right given different customs, senses of humor and languages.
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The core principle to any engagement with a woman, wherever there is a difference in opinion: she is your underling.
A boss doesn’t challenge his employee. He guides. Good relations are needed with your employees, so that they do good work. Sometimes stern discipline is called for. Never is argument required. If she wants to argue with her boss, she’s either going to learn quick, or get fired.
Being with a girl is like being with a puppy. Dogs have strict etiquette for play fighting. Sometimes a puppy will test to see if it can be dominant. That’s when you neg. That’s when instead of rolling on your back and trying to mock bite her neck, you take a sharp nip at her ear. Then it’s back to play fighting again, back and forth, but this time with you being more of the leader and dominant dog.
You are the boss, the leader, the parent. You don’t argue with underlings. You never bicker. To do so shows that you are not the boss. It’s a dance of puppy play fighting – it’s not about winning the fight. It’s about playing long enough for her to learn to enjoy your scent and your style.
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Anoukage…
I met a girl I was gaming recently.
I sent her a text:
“New word, barbaro” It’s the Spanish word for “cool” in Argentine slang.
She texted back: “what’s it mean?”
Me: “google it, there’s a test”
All this seemed to intrigue her more.
Her: Google translates barbaro as barbaro what’s it mean?
Me: keep trying
Her: …ah, si si barbaro…
She finally got this. But it wasn’t arguing. I figured it was good text game.
We’re supposed to meet up in the next few days.
But now i can use barbaro every time I text her.
Not arguing. She seemed to find this fun. It appealed to her sense of curiosity.
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whatever-
“Cool and intelligent indifference is the only frame worth having.”
–add in heart and blood pumping through the veins and it’s perfect. Humans are so much more interesting than robots. Indifference is a slippery slope. If one has managed to actually become indifferent they have become boring, in my eyes at least. Care, but let it be known you can walk away if needed.
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walawala-
I could see that, I too would be curious. Well done. 🙂
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One ground rule I make at the beginning of any relationship – I don’t argue.
Sometimes this can go unstated, but it is crucial that it is communicated.
Arguing sucks all the joy out of life. Couples that do this habitually are fucked. There are more pleasant ways to exercise wit.
Arguing is a sign that there is no clear dominance hierarchy. Which means the relationship is fucked.
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Damn, Roissy.
I’m printing this post out, right now, to read again later, to make sure it sinks in. This is great stuff. Thanks.
To people who think of Game as being dark and manipulative, you can see that this post is just about positive character development.
Who wants to be around a whiny guy who always complains and loves to argue all the time about inconsequential ego shit, and who gets all aggressive and offended when he doesn’t get his way?
It’s not only women who find that shit a turn off; I know that guy, he’s an asshole, and it’s no wonder his girl looks at me the way she does.
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@A.H.A
Would it be good direct game to go around handing out your CDs to chicks? Think about it, you get 1) instant DHV 2) comfort-building thru your chick crack luuuuve hurts type lyrics 3) contact info (ie band website) 4) make money from your groupies thru merchandise sales.
Handing out your CDs to chicks? Back when I was in a band, the only guys who went around telling girls they were in a band, or handing out their CDs, did not do well with women, or with audiences for that matter.
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“What’s the difference between “arguing” and passing a shit test?”
Well, arguing is trying to convince someone of an intellectual point; shit-testing is a value check, it cannot be passed through intellectual banter but only through holding your frame.
For example, when a chick asks for you to buy her a drink, and you say “what makes you different from all the other girls in bars that I should buy YOU a drink?” you aren’t really looking for an answer to the question. You don’t want to engage in a debate about her value or the custom of buying girls drinks. You are simply asserting that you’re not going to be had that easily. And you might end up buying her a drink, and it won’t hurt your value because you’ve made her work for it.
You can intellectualize it all you want…here, on on Marc Rudov’s site or wherever. But with her, your response has to be all social, all frame.
To be a good interlocutor one has to get past the words he’s saying per se and instead see the whole conversation as a sort of dance with people asserting their personas and trying to hold position. Lots of people who are bad at conversation grasp at anything no matter how dumb to try to keep the conversation going.
Like someone says “I’m a lawyer” and you stumble for anything to say that’s remotely related to lawyers, like “hmm, yeah, my brother considered going to law school…he decided instead to get a job as an investment banker” and then you’ve blown your wad with nothing interesting to add. You’re trying to look like you are tuned in but you just look like a suckup.
Disclosure: trying to force commonality with a stupid, irrelevant conversational response was a big part of my beta days.
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@BadgerNation
I think possibly when trying to game a female lawyer it might be best not to mention the unmentionable, namely her profession. I believe female lawyers work very long hours (although so do mothers, who also have to get up in the early hours, so maybe it is not entirely bad practice), they might be glad of a break from work & hearing about work from time to time.
I will resist the temptation to ask why on earth anyone would want to game such a person in the first place, certainly after reading this blog you cannot say you have not been warned.
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gamers, half-men, national socialists, join the Oprah for men brigade and keep telling us your sentimental stories and doing ur economically illiterate math which makes u believe u r losing ur women to the nigs and spicks, when in truth u r losing them because u urself r inadequate.
get tattoos and join the kkk if u have any pride.
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daedalus,
I instituted a policy a few years ago of trying like hell to avoid talking about work off of company property. 95% of the time, talking about work is a tingle killer in both directions – boring. If someone asked me what I did, I’d answer and change the subject without returning the question back. Part was the fact I hated my job at the time and talking about it put me out of my frame. It gets to be an easy default conversation stock: “so, what do you do/where are you from/etc?” and thus indicates bad game.
Like I said, good conversation can’t just be a fluffing of facts back and forth…there has to be some kind of purpose and movement to it.
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Arguing betrays insecurity. The ultimate purpose of arguing is to win allies and gain status. A person comfortable with their own status doesn’t bother getting into arguments with someone they just met.
This is the parallel between arguing and passing shit tests. A nonchalant attitude sublimates high status.
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@B
Intriguing. Here’s a question: how to make metal type music that appeals to hot normal girls AND still sounds like metal mostly (ie it shouldn’t just be pop music with electric guitars)?
I mean, I can play a lot of genres, but I’d prefer something that actually gets me off on stage.
I think something like Avenged Sevenfold can work, ie their visual look is more sleaze rockers or goth (sexual chick crack) than metal but they sound quite metal (at least on the first albums). They also employ lots of clean singing with catchy choruses, not just screaming constantly. I am thinking these things have been designed for chick allure.
They seem to have quite a few not too shabby women in the audience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXSV4WRfqvg
Now obviously this not purist tr00 nekro brutal death metal, but do you think Cannibal Corpse are pulling hot dames at their shows?
Notice the pre-selection they employ by having hot strippers cavort on-stage. I’m thinking chicks in the audience get wetter by this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HSwFR0uZVQ
These are probably hired guns but I am thinking one could do like Tim Ferriss and find a cheaper outsourced solution here! Maybe make a stripping contest for the female fans or something.
Type O Negative always struck me as chick crack too with a tall dark and handsome lead singer and lyrics about having sex with God and stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0LSO-dtsxo
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@A.H.A.
I live in Sweden too – women here are mental…
When it comes to arguing – previous posters are right. Never try to argue in a logical manner. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be contrary. Met a girl at a party year or two back who was a student on a “Sustainability” course (some kind of green bullshit). I said to her:
“You know what I think about that kind of thing?”
Her “What?”
Me “Fuck the planet! I just don’t care. Let it burn!”
She tried to argue the point logically and I just refused to be drawn in.
Few hours later I was fucking her.
Basically, she was used to hearing the same tired old bullshit from the white knight/manginas she meets in school who would act all caring about the polar bears in an attempt to get in her good graces.
Nothing wrong with being contrary.
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@Whatever
True, if you come from the beta side. So I guess for most readers, they should listen to your advice and avoid looking desperate by getting back at her poor attitude. I’m pretty sure if a beta ever ripped her soul out or pissed on her soul in public, there would be social repercussions brought on to the beta. Example all her friends will avoid you and act like a total bitch. They will spread hurtful rumors such as you having a small prick or stds. So yes if a beta gets rejected then they should exit without causing harm.
For me it’s more out of fun and not giving a fuck cuz I can get away with anything with all women. There are plenty of women and even hot girls have only one shot at someone like myself. If the woman decides to act bitchy then it’s fun to remind of her who she is dealing with. That’s just me, but most guys can’t find a suitable replacement on a whim like myself or have total strangers/girls defending them if I ever encountered a girl with a poor attitude. Even the coldest cunts give me a lot of leeway, most guys should not follow my advice. They will probably get slapped.
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Jesus, Roissy, you’re still doing this.
Haven’t been around here in a year.
Why in the world do you continue to waste your time with this shit? Do you have anything better to do?
Are you making any money at this? I doubt it.
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“When it comes to arguing – previous posters are right. Never try to argue in a logical manner. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be contrary.”
I would argue that at a certain point in game it is in fact advisable to disagree (without arguing) as a matter of asserting frame.
Girl: [some opinion or question]
You: No. [With solid frame.]
It works amazingly well. She could be saying the most obvious, rational logical thing and you just coolly go “No.” Nothing more.
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I love this post.
As for fighting…as a lady I cannot do it, dont wanna fight, dont need to win anything either.
In my strange brain: There comes a saturation point or a place of maturity in a womens head that says, “eh, its no big deal anyways, lets have sex”. Sex and peace of mind becomes more important than being right. Also, there is a leader and follower in dating. Women follow, men lead. Men lead women follow. End of fight.
Break up scenes are so ugly and women make it that way. It is mostly their fault anyways. But you men can step up and change the discussion…pick your battles carefully.
As for lawyer wermin…Lawyers are soulless shapeshifter plus a woman on top of it? Mean and scary, avoid them.
Women can listen to many coversations in the room. R is correct to state the disconnect we’d pick up on.
thelp999
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Women do not do logic very well in fight. So…I dont know. For a new lady you are trying to meet dont bother with negs and this fight-iness stuff. It is emotionally draining to many of us.
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I haven’t been to a feminist-occupied country in 2 years so I’ve almost forgotten what its like for a woman to argue and/or present an extreme liberal point of view.
I used to live in Berkeley, however, and I know Sweden well.
In Berkeley itself the vegetarians were living in asbestos-laden homes. Most of the nice old homes there were built in the 1910s when asbestos was used for everything. In Sweden the new high speed trains give a deadly dose of magnetic flux to passengers, especially harmful to fetuses. In other words: these people don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to environmental dangers.
Therein lies the way to neg these people without appearing confrontational.
A great neg would be to point out to a vegan girl that the house she was sharing was packed with asbestos and way above EPA guidelines for magnetic flux.
Don’t do this as a retort to their being vegan. Just bring this up as part of a greater conversation about how to stay healthy in the face of toxic threats.
It gets their attention when you point out that they are probably going to die of something they hadn’t thought about but which you have thought about.
This ends their ability to be self-righteously superior to you.
I tended to commiserate with the 18 year old daughters of the rich conservatives who lived on the ridge in Berkeley. I would spend evenings at the astronomical observatory above the town (at the top of the same ridge to the south a few miles), where women, regardless of their politics, could be drawn in by stories of the actual zodiac moving across the southern sky.
Also, I could always “find common ground” with a Berkeley leftist woman by discussing the Republican campaign against premarital sex. 😉
My big problem was not in Berkeley, but in San Francisco where women were a bit older, more arrogant, suspicious of white males and who had largely moved there from other parts of the country because they were leftist misfits.
Even there, I could have done well if I just hadn’t been into explaining 7 good reasons why I felt the Iraq War was necessary.
I remember that I wasn’t so much trying to win an argument with anyone so much as I just wanted the leftist women I met to at least understand the concept of looking at things with a different frame now and then.
I simply wanted acknowledgment that a concept existed that the entire war might have had the purpose of transferring Sunni Islamic enmity from Americans to the Shiites who gained permanent dominance over “Mesopotamia” as a result of the war.
But this went over their heads. The only thing they understood was that I was somehow suggesting that the troops might have been accomplishing something.
Leftist women couldn’t register this change of frame on that subject. There was no acknowledgment that they even saw the point. After listening to me calmly make this point, one 30 something woman at an art gallery in San Francisco, literally put her hand to her head and started yelling as she left the building “I can’t stand it. Our country has been taken over by people whose attitude is going to get us all killed.” She was referring to the idea that terrorists would nuke us all if we weren’t nice to them, and her friends told me she ran because she thought a Muslim might have just overheard me and tried to toss a grenade into our midst.
And these were her friends explaining this.
Another time I met a lawyer type standing at the Oakland BART platform. She asked how I liked living in the area and I said in a joking manner that I had a problem with just about everyone being a liberal. Believe me, I wasn’t bitter or complaining in the way I said that, but it didn’t matter. She quietly moved down the platform to be on the opposite end of the train from me. She hadn’t seen any humor in my comment.
If a time machine could take me back to SF during that time period, I would avoid discussion of the War on Terror entirely. But then, if a time machine took me back, I would just more quickly come to the decision I came to which was to move to Eastern Europe. 😉
PS: A few months ago I was on a 3rd date with a local woman I was losing interest in. She said that she felt the bombing of the train between Moscow and St. Petersburg had been an inside job by the Russian government. I noted that many parliament members were among the injured just as many Pentagon employees were killed on 9/11. If she had had anything interesting to say on this point or her thesis, it would have been OK, but she further revealed that she was just the East European equivalent of a leftist. I quickly paid for the meal and had my taxi take her home, never to phone her again. The determining factor was that I had already lost interest in her body anyway.
I think some over-the-hill women turn men off on purpose with their political views…as a way of rationalizing that they weren’t rejected for their looks. She can believe to this day that we just didn’t “see eye to eye”.
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Women and their neurotic tendencies…It is rare we even notice and correct them. Overthinking is part of that. Being human aint easy even if we are “pretty”.
As a female, sometimes waxing hyperesotrogenic I have to prevent myself everyday from going nuts on someone.
oh well, quite a excellent post Sir!
thelp999
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The_King – if your dick’s half as big as your ego, no wonder the ladies all love you. Christ alive, what a douche.
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“Would it be good direct game to go around handing out your CDs to chicks?”
No. The best attitude to have about your band is not to force it on everyone. Don’t treat it like a big deal, even if it is. When complimented, appreciate it but don’t treat it like it’s all you have going for you. Some shit bands I know have spent years handing their CD-Rs at gigs (which end up in the bin or used as coasters/frisbees) posting far more Myspace bulletins than their limited activity warranted, yet have only toured the local toilet circuit, if they were lucky. I release my first solo CD with the help of others non-pesteringly promoting it, and I have a much better promotion/following ratio than all those shit annoying bands, and a reasonable male/female ratio considering the genre.
“I don’t know. Living in Sweden, where EVERY chick is either the socialist version of SWPL with Che Guevara t-shirts and red star tattoos, or the stuck-up bourgeoisie lawyer chick breed of SWPL, it’s kind of hard to do that, reason being that the chicks simply aren’t smart enough to realize that they could be wrong about their plattitude type opinions.
In my opinion they don’t understand that someone could have a different opinion and so they just think you are weird.”
My visit to Sweden (Stockholm) seemed to generally correlate with things I’d read about how SWPL it is. I wish I hadn’t gone so militantly dressed. I stuck out like a sore thumb even more than my dishevelled friends amongst all the camply dressed and generally well turned out Swedes. It’s really hard to tell who’s gay and who’s straight, my friends narrowly escaping a bumming.
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Here is a look into how the men in American society have apparently been super-beta providers for two centuries:
http://newyorksocialdiary.com/node/1902816
It is the story of the Astor Family.
The story makes it look like the men really flubbed their existences despite all their money.
Also, when TMZ comes out with a divorce rape story, let’s please see more real males speaking out against it:
http://www.tmz.com/2010/07/02/elin-nordegren-tiger-woods-property-settlement-100-million-dollars-divorce/2/#comments-anchor
This article on Tiger Woods having to give $100 million to someone he just had a few kids with, really pisses me off.
We need to nail home that this kind of attitude is making the smartest males refuse to get married in the first place.
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@ Badger nation, I really enjoy your posts. Your conversational analysis is very helpful, and I often make the mistake of adding some irrelevant and boring comment to try to prove that I was listening or to demonstrate commonality.
But how do you correct this? I would say that I am a decent looking guy, and when I approach I can tell women move into evaluation mode. I have their attention, but more often than not, they choose to sit back and passively react to my statements more than throw out conversational information actively. The non-verbal I pick up from women I approach is “Ok, you have my attention, now demonstrate to me why I should be at all interested in what you have to say.”
I struggle to move the conversation from here. I get some success with cocky/funny negs, but its shortlived, and often leads into a jokey banter lacking any sexual undertones. I think my problem is that I can tell that the ball is in my court, but I don’t know how to move the ball without appearing to try to hard to impress. I find it very difficult to maintain an aloof unconcerned frame while trying to move things forward.
I think this is the crux of the difficulty in the pickup. The approaching man obviously wants to accomplish the pickup, so he is the primary actor. But to be successful he has to come off as unconcerned and aloof. Any tips on how to solve this paradox?
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As I drank my Fourth away in a bar, I observed all of these mistakes and more.
My own pickup attempt was going well but it was with the bartender and I ended up being mercilessly cockblocked by her boss.
There was a big ‘roided out AMOG there that had the semi-amused attention of every woman in the place, but he just didn’t know how to escalate beyond a certain point.
I can really relate to Sidewinders comments about the paradox of being interested enough, but unconcerned. It’s a very fine line to walk and it is too easy to make mistakes.
I have trouble figuring out which tack of conversation to take when I remember all these rules. If I ask her questions about herself, I am DLV by letting her prattle on about her interests without asking me any questions. If I volunteer information about my exciting job, bitchin car, or plush bachelor pad down the street, I am “try-hard”. If I clam up and stick to grunts and nods, I am boring and uninterested.
I know there’s no magic bullet but it’s a tough problem.
Women probably have their own paradox, being that they want to appear approachable, but not to those they deem undesirable. Often they completely blow any subtlety in this regard, and err way too far on the side of being aloof, bitchy, and self-centered. IOI’s by women are so barely perceptible that it’s no wonder most guys miss them.
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AHA…walawala…what is wrong with you guys?
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I think the ideal is for men to be evasive, indirect, and playful about every subject, while appearing to be ready to leave at any second. Tough act to pull off when you’re posted up drinking for hours at the bar. It also goes against instinct, because if a women were evasive and flighty with us, it would be an irritating turnoff.
In practical terms, that means that your job, car, house, past relationships, political opinions, family, sports teams, particle theories, and future aspirations have NO place in the conversation. You are only allowed to toss out lightweight frivolities in a teasing manner. How fucking boring women are.
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askjoe
Lupo’s stuff was a great elaboration, and it DOES work if done right. Remember you’re playfully teasing them about their conformist status mongering little to no thought views and attitudes. At most veering into ridicule. You’re NOT trying to argue and change their minds.
They end up seeing you as a edgie. An intellectual bad boy. You should avoid being pinned down to any ideology yourself.
But don’t spend forever on these topics. Just puncture their balloon enough that they’re not trying any longer to see if you tick all or enough of their conformist lefty boxes.
For a LTR, it does help a lot of she’s not a lefty ideologue. Don’t think I could handle that in a LTR. Girls can be pretty changeable though when they’re really into you. Or many can be.
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@ Doug1, there’s a version of the hippy leftie woman that maintains a connection to the natural world, and she can be someone that gets male/female relations. Otherwise, far leftie women are so disconnected from their nature that I would never recommend a LTR.
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My visit to Sweden (Stockholm) seemed to generally correlate with things I’d read about how SWPL it is. I wish I hadn’t gone so militantly dressed. I stuck out like a sore thumb even more than my dishevelled friends amongst all the camply dressed and generally well turned out Swedes. It’s really hard to tell who’s gay and who’s straight, my friends narrowly escaping a bumming.
Hahahahaha. THIS!
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Good conversational material when you initially meet someone is anything that will allow you to exchange non-neutral opinions in a non-argumentative manner. Women want to know that a man has ideas and convictions, but they don’t want him to express them in an argumentative or domineering way (i.e., subtext of “I can’t believe you don’t agree with me!” or “Only idiots don’t agree with me!”). They also don’t want to know that a man is ruffled in any way by her disagreeing with him. If a woman does manage to flummox you, play it off with non-sarcastic humor.
The average woman will probably be happy to talk about television shows, movies, celebrities, pop culture fads, childhood nostalgia, traveling, things that are commonly annoying in your area (e.g., slow or bad drivers, screaming kids, long lines at the checkout, service at restaurants, other local minutiae, clueless tourists, etc.) – basically anything that she can have an opinion on but is non-threatening to her identity/belief system. Negs and gentle mocking will go over much better over topics like these than politics or religion.
The reason not to talk about past relationships right off the bat is because it’s too easy to come off as bitter or a complainer or reveal yourself to be an indiscriminate player. Women don’t want to know the man they’ve just met has a metric ton of baggage or that he’s already plowed through half the city. Also, talking about an ex means there’s another woman still on a man’s mind; it doesn’t matter if it’s a positive or negative memory. Just the fact that you’re willing to talk about another woman to a woman is a tingle-killer.
The reason not to talk about your job (other than a few cursory details) is that unless she is specifically interested in your job, it will seem like you’re either reading off your resume in the hopes that it will make you more attractive, or you will seem like your head is always stuck at work and you have no other more interesting interests. That said, if you love your job and are truly passionate about it, women want to see that. But don’t go into the nuts and bolts of it – just tell her why you love it (e.g., you get to help people, you get to meet interesting people, you get new challenges every day, you love solving the problems your job presents, etc.). Even if you don’t have a really sexy job, a woman will be impressed by you loving your job and being unapologetic about it. Your passion for your job will make your job (and therefore you) become sexier in her eyes. Likewise, if you view your job as drudgery for a paycheck, a woman will be able to pick up on that, and that will kill the tingles.
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Stu: native or expat?
My buddy SteviePUA who is British but used to live in Sweden, wrote an article called “Sarging in Sweden” which you can find in Interesting Times #2.
I am interested in doing a sequel to that article. editor at interestingtimesmagazine dot com if you are interested 🙂
Sarging in other Scandi countries would also be very interesting to read about! Danish chicks do NOT have the same mindset as Swedish ones, I can tell you.
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How do you guys pronounce SWPL? Ess Dubya Pee Ell?
For me, it’s “swipple”.
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I say sw-eye-pul
kinda rhymes with ass wipe ppl.
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A.H.A – expat. Been here for getting on for ten years now. I also did a couple of years in Oslo – norwegian girls are much nicer than the Swedes. Haven’t had any experience with Danish girls though…
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I completely agree that there should not be any arguments while one first meets a girl. However, does the same rule apply in relationship game?
As two people become closer, disagreements naturally surface. As xsplat said, argument means a lack of hierarchy in relationship, and we all know in a relationship the two people constantly struggle for the upper hand. Thus I think it’s reasonable to take any disagreement as a shit test. However, what’s the best way to solve a disagreement without going through an argument?
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Stu: interesting. Wanna write something on pulling Scandi ass? 🙂
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Okay Roissy, here’s what I need. Russian Spy Catnip Game.
http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=90653
This poster makes me want to sit around DC bars spouting fake nuclear jargon all day. “So then he says we can’t sustain the reaction without a palladium liner. What am I supposed to do, fly to Ukraine and…”
Seriously, what’s next in this scandal? I’m waiting for an American businessman to take the stand and tell us how Anna sabotaged his Iron Soldier program.
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Dally … I agree with you.
One way to get around this dilemma is to approach women that look like they are in the right state or mood to be approached.
An associate of mine expressed this by observing women at a bar or club to determine which ones were “ready”.
If she is in the right state of mind and is open and horny , the game tends to be alot easier.
Having to work ones ass off on gaming and fucking a woman that is closed off , no matter how hot or sexy she is can be an uphill battle ; which although achievable takes alot of skill and a good element of luck.
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Badger
re Male Midlife Crisis.
Just some random comments from the voice of experience:
The female writer exposes the lack of empathy of women for men. Fit into my lifestyle or out! She condemns behavior in men that she would applaud in a woman. These men are not being useful tools!
Whose midlife crisis? These men are in their 30’s. That ain’t midlife for a man. It is the women in their midlife crises.
Note she says the women in their 30’s aren’t feeling pressured by their age because of IVF. Bulls**t. These women are desperate to marry and have children before it is too late. The men have another decade before they start getting too old for that sort of thing.
I think once a man gets by his first rush of hormones and love in his 20’s (teenage years don’t count), if he has had any experience with diverse women he will carefully think before he allows himself to be pushed into a marriage in his 30’s to a dominating woman in her 30’s.
Women forget that men tend to go the berserker route with the women they want to marry. They’ll take a bullet for her or work 16 hours a day or work a very dangerous job to support her. And feel no resentment for having to do it. That’s a manifestation of masculine love for a woman and children. The relationships in this article do not sound like that. They sound almost platonic.
What man wants a high achieving wife if he himself is a high achiever? As a “high achieving” male, I would have no use for such a wife. She would be a burden to my career. I couldn’t work long, irregular hours, travel, take vacations, or re-locate unless she agreed to disrupt her career. During my down times at home a high achieving wife would expect me to do domestic chores. Children would be impossible. What kind of comfort could she offer me as a wife when she was also working long hours? Affairs would be inevitable.
These high achieving women will have to marry men without much ambition, including perhaps the ambition to marry and have children. And, then they will find out what it is like to be seen as a meal ticket.
Youngun’s, listen and learn.
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A real man does not use “game” or “funny”; he takes what he wants.
It is time to put the bitches down. Roissy is playing on the side of the feminists.
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Grampa … you are hitting the nail right on the head there.
Few “power couples” can pull off the dual career and kids thing and chances are that if they go down that route the kids will more than likely turn out to be messed up.
Messed up how ?
Two, time poor parents earing good money means lavishing money and gifts while at the same time being largely absent from the kid’s lives.
In the longer term, you can’t buy a child its happiness, you can’t buy a child a well balanced personality and character, these things take up a parents time , require hours of interaction on a daily and weekly basis and children will learn from what they see happening around them.
Is it any wonder that despite the material benefits that both parents working can afford a family that so many children these days are growing up to be selfish , self centered , compassionless and lacking in empathy for others ?
Some such parents either through effort or dumb luck will manage to get it right ; most won’t.
This is a by-product of what some have coined “Affluenza”.
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Disadvantages of Dating a Left Wing Woman:
Worse than an argumentative attitude, a young leftist 9 or 10 can play a member of the “patriarchy” along for 30 minutes or an hour as if she really likes him and then commit revenge by coldly rejecting him when he tries to number close or giving a false number or rejecting him when he calls.
How to Handle: When you know where she’s really at politically, go for an early number close and/or apply direct game and walk away if you don’t get quick results.
Advantages of Dating a Left Wing Woman:
She’s possibly more likely to bring a girlfriend along for a threesome or go with you to a couple’s swap club to watch. 😉
She’s definitely probably more likely to go for a ONS. As I said above, take her being left wing as an invitation for direct game.
If she says no to sex, ask her why she thinks like a Republican. 😉
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Grampa is awesome…his experience is eye-opening, and unclouded by the typical “kids these days” ornriness of many older culture warriors.
“The female writer exposes the lack of empathy of women for men. Fit into my lifestyle or out!”
While there are still some good American women, the overall “female industry” (from left to right) in America is hopelessly narcissistic and indolent and lacks empathy for men. Every time a man’s goals disagree with hers, it’s blamed on a structural defect in maleness. Nothing is left to taste or a legitimate difference in life goals. it’s all shaming.
He doesn’t want to marry and have kids? He’s immature, or has a “fear of commitment” – she ignores he might not want to commit to _her_. He doesn’t want to date a ballbusting woman? Couldn’t be her personality – it has to be that men are _intimidated_ by a successful woman. She gets a little drunk and makes a bad decision she regrets? Can’t be a mistake, she has to have been raped by a man who should have saved her from herself.
American women also can’t be frickin’ happy. Every time they get something it’s not good enough and they want something else, usually a contradictory something at that. Hardcore gamers would say that the man has to have hand and be alpha to ward this off, but at some point the only sound move is not to play (with American chicks at least).
I will do Marie Claire one better and actually empathize with American girls…I realized recently that there’s an entire industry whose business model depends on making women feel bad about themselves – their looks, their clothes, their mates, their lives. With that backdrop from cradle to grave I’m not surprised so many American girls are messed up.
But there’s a tight feedback loop in the American sisterhood that prevents any accountability. It’s beyond annoying, and I usually run at the first sign of it.
Speaking of goals and on the subject of another comment…couples shouldn’t fight a lot, but I don’t usually oppose arguing in an LTR. It’s in the arguments where you find out where both sides’ opinions are on big issues, information you need to know when considering marriage or a DTB. Argument is seen as bad in our feminized society; I think it serves a purpose.
“These high achieving women will have to marry men without much ambition, including perhaps the ambition to marry and have children. And, then they will find out what it is like to be seen as a meal ticket. ”
In my experience, women who choose a man they can boss around quickly come to resent his beta-ness.
“The relationships in this article do not sound like that. They sound almost platonic.”
This is an excellent reading; these girls want coin-operated boyfriends. I was reading Camille Paglia recently who argued that the date rape hysteria of the late 80’s was really a bunch of white middle-upper class women refusing to accept the true nature of feral male sexuality, instead expecting men to be programmable dildos who stop and start on command. It’s not hard to extrapolate that view to the Marie Claire attitude that men should adsorb and subsume their girls’ lifestyle desires at a blink.
She said it was also ironic that the schools that were most hysterical about date rape and frat parties were the ones where the men came in the door already emasculated into effete bookwormishness. (Although Camille always denigrates white middle class mores in favor of curvy black and Hispanic street culture, it gets predictable after a while.)
Unfortunately nobody listened to her and now every school has a rape inquisition committee, not just the uber-lib Northeast and California coast schools. UC-Davis in fact was just busted for falsifying their campus rape data to get more propaganda money from the gov’t.
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A couple other BS calls on the Marie Claire story:
“This crew feels entitled to fun; sacrifice is not in their vocab. They crave love like anyone, but they’d rather spend their cash and time on the latest iPhone and rafting the Zambesi, than on a wedding and curtains and raising kids.”
The implication here is that love costs money, and men are freeloading by spending money on themselves. Because women _never_ spend money on themselves that could be better spent elsewhere (actually that might be true, many women spend their father’s or husband’s money on themselves.)
The PUAs are right that sex should not cost money; love should not cost money either. Marriage costs money, but marriage is not about love.
-snip-
“I remember when I was 25, I told myself that by the time I was 30, I wanted to be head of my own department for a major cosmetics brand,” says Dana, 30, the head of global marketing for a major cosmetics brand. “I moved up quickly because I’m hard-working, and I push for what I want.”
The insulting implication here is that her man doesn’t work as hard as she does. But she reveals herself a ball-buster who probably can’t get a man’s man who wants to spend time with her and has to settle for an empty-vessel puppy-dog man.
As evidenced in the rest of the quote (in my post above), she’s an OCD control freak. This woman is probably also narcissistic – successful people often start to attribute their success to their own personal worth and discount the role of good fortune and accident in their career. “Working hard” is a usually-necessary but almost never sufficient condition for moving up the corporate ladder. Promotions are usually a combination of someone above you leaving or moving up, and the management thinking you’ve got The Right Stuff to fill the position (which requires a lot of ass-kissing and some serendipitous compatibilities in personality.)
Someone is not in control of the former, and a lot of times not in control of the latter either.
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All the tricks. One is to boycott the whole process. When the woman is getting argumentative, rather than disagreeing and explaining an alternate position, just stop talking. Make a disatisfied face, and don’t reply.
The woman should be used to you leading conversations and know you well enough that she can’t force compliance out of you. I suppose that is how to stop arguments. It’s not in the process of the argument, it’s in the entire process of social dominance – instilling respect and fear and awe and admiration and emotional dependence and tight loving bonds. She should realize that you are a stubborn bastard that she has no hope of messing without repurcussion. That being the case, all you need to do is stop talking. Either look disaproving, or flash a very brief disaproval, then soften, and change the subject. You want to get her to feel that she is stepping on a line that hurts herself to step on.
Generally giving the subtlest cues possible is best. But you can’t train a horse to respond to the subtlest cues from day one. You have to train them up, either by breaking them or horse whispering them into loving compliance. Or a combination.
She will get to the point where she wants you to be pleased with her, and with everything that she does. Then, merely showing disapproval will be the rebuke. And if it is not, you escalate past the point she is capable of escalating. In every argument she has to know she has no possible way of forcing a win out of you.
And in that process you have to immediately concede any point where she is right. With a simple “oh”. And drop it immediately.
You see, there is no territory to defend, about being right. That teaches her it’s ok to concede she is wrong. It’s a shared moment of comraderie – Oh, ya, I guess you’re right.
The arguments come when she tries to force you, dominate you, shame you, into her view or agenda, without respecting your ultimate authority. That’s a battle for power. Which it is imperative that she loses. Every time. No matter what.
Every time, no matter what.
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Again – about conceding when you are wrong – even after a huge dramatic build up of who is right and who is wrong, with tempers starting to flare, if the conversation uncovers that she’s right, you just drop everything, all at once, with “Oh. Ok.”
You’ll probably both laugh.
This kills any gotcha moment, or any habit of gotcha moments.
Gotcha moments build as ice on the wings of your mutual lust. Lead by example and neither give nor take a gotcha.
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Another trick is to mock her tone of voice. Or mock her facial expression. Just quickly mirror it back. Cringe when she is whining and poke your fingers in your ear and say “ahh, that voice!” Scrunch your face up into a prune if she has put on her cranky face. Women often have no clue how they appear to others, so you mirror it.
The shock of recognition will shut her up. Hopefully make her laugh too. Partly out of embarassment.
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When I say you imperative you don’t lose a war of escalation, I don’t mean that you should fight every little battle.
I mean that if it’s your authority that is being questioned, that’s a problem.
You can disagree about stuff. Stuff doesn’t matter.
If she’s in your face and trying to force your attention or will or actions, you MUST win and make her back the fuck down.
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Another way to stop arguments is twist them. Be very clear about what you agree with in what she is saying. This re-affirms her position. From there you aren’t combatting, and you can stretch it out, so that she starts to ALSO include your view.
Rather than play ping pong back and forth with viewpoints, batting the ball back and forth, you take a global view, include her view, and gently lead her into including your territory into her territory.
Not yes but; but yes and.
Another way is to make fun of the bad quality you don’t like, but depersonalize it. Don’t talk as if it’s her bad quality.
The point is that you are always on the same team, and that you are always the team leader. Any disagreements within the group are smoothed over by following the group leader. No infighting.
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Another useful tool is to say “I don’t want to talk about this right now. We can talk about it later”.
Women will often want to resolve any puny little emotional imbalance on the spot. She needs to learn that is not your job. You aren’t the babysitter of her mind. She can sit on her own uncomfortableness.
When a baby is crying in it’s crib, you let it cry. After a week or two, it simply stops crying at night. Coddle it every time it cries and it will cry in the middle of the night for years.
“We can talk about that later”.
If she tries to force the point, escalate like a vicious mother fucker. Don’t you dare lose. If you make a stand, make it, right up to the point of death.
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It’s easy to fail to recognize that it is to a womans advantage to suck up all your emotional energy, to keep you off balance, to weigh down the house with a negative mood. To keep an edge of uncertainty hovering over you. To have you walking on eggshells.
Some women are so extreme about this that any relationship is doomed – they have BPD. But for women in a normal range, they will also try to gain hand by weighing you down. They want you to lose confidence, and sex appeal. To get betafied and domesticated, fattened and afraid.
The only cure is to be fucking vicious about being your own man, no matter what.
Be a good man, be a bad, man – but be your own man. She’ll either like that man, or she won’t.
But if you please her and be her man, dancing around like a puppet trying to keep her moods in check, you are doomed. You have to be fucking vicious at the fist sign of a woman trying to control you with moods, or stupid little dominance games.
Most of us men can’t even notice when women are playing these games. We think they just need our help.
Ha hahaha. Us men are so easy to manipulate.
Until we come into our own.
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Clearly we must all be the same frame to be different! 😉
Roissy should produce a booklet containing these maxims. It would please me greatly
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thats why i havent been getting girls. SMH
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lol. I got ruthlessly spurned by a curvy girl a couple years back so after she blew me out I asked her, “Have you called Jenny yet?”
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Xsplat-
“Arguing is a sign that there is no clear dominance hierarchy. Which means the relationship is fucked.”
-well put.
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