Jason Malloy, one of the more perceptive presences on the web, had this to say about creativity in the comments section at The Inductivist:
There are two different kinds of creativity … or rather there are two distinctive wells of creativity.
The first well is simply an extension of general intelligence. Smarter people can make more interesting and complex connections. They also have lower time preference which permits gradual elaboration of their raw creative abilities through craft.
The second (and probably more vital) well is an extension of male sexual drive, and should be thought of as “insight” or extemporaneous creativity. It is hormonally mediated which explains why men are more creatively accomplished than women, and, more importantly, why male creative accomplishment occurs primarily when men are in their 20s and then declines with age. Female creative accomplishment does not show this aging pattern because females are drawing from the former well of creativity but not the latter.
East Asians have plenty of the former kind of creativity but are deficient in the latter because they are biologically calibrated for low male mating effort. Blacks are the opposite. They have high extemporaneous creativity because they are calibrated for high mating effort.
This vital creativity has declined over time as men have become biologically pacified (e.g. the dramatic centuries-long decline in violence — violence being another extension of male mating effort). Most recently Millennials are both less violent and less creative than previous generations.
So contrary to received concerns, I believe creative stagnation should be viewed as a symptom of civilizational progress.
The racial angle is very interesting here, and comports with what I observe in daily life. Also, I have noticed when I’m oversexed by a girlfriend’s insatiable appetite (yes, it is possible to be oversexed), I start to feel claustrophobic and mentally lethargic. I feel a pressing need to get away so that my creativity batteries can be recharged. Maybe this is why I deny women the closure of marriage and kids — I know what it means for my free man’s soul.
Next question: Does ethnic and racial diversity increase or decrease creativity? I suspect, contrary to received wisdom, that diversity above a certain minimum threshold decreases creative output. America clearly was more creative when it was 85-90% white.
So… safe dullness or violent creativity? Pick one or the other. Safe dullness is the end game of a feminized society, while violent creativity is the hallmark of a masculinized society. Perhaps there is a balance to be struck between the two, but today we are clearly too far over into the malaise and soul-suckery of feminization. The Chateau will do its part to correct this historical transgression.
Increase your Testy Testosterone–eat lotsa meat, do your deadlifts, avoid soy, avoid excessive ejaculation through masturbation–
and you will increase your creativity, strength, happiness, joy, sex appeal, and poon.
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“America was *clearly* more creative when it was 80-90% white”
No explanation even exists for that. If you’re a peddler of opinion then you clearly possess damaged goods.
There’s no reason to read anymore of this.
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“America was *clearly* more creative when it was 80-90% white”
This is clearly false correlation. If you look at countries that are 80-90% NON-white, you see a lot more creativity. The AVERAGE African or South American paints or draws, makes music with whatever they can find, or dances like a mother fucker. The average Americans in the 1950s (or earlier) did nothing but work and mow the lawn.
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4th
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While blacks are, all else being equal, the most creative race, all else is not equal. Having a lower average intelligence means that they tend not to produce the truly great works of art you find in white cultures. No Shakespeares, Homers, Dantes, Bachs, Beethovens, or Michelangelos. In fact, it seems like they tend to require the stability of white run institutions to achieve even what they do achieve. Compare the creative achievements of blacks in America vs. those of blacks in Africa.
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smearing paint on a canvas, banging on a bongo drum, and dancing like a tribesman are your ideas of creativity?
what about sending a man to the moon, inventing technology, developing civilization, and socially engineering a large and thriving middle class?
what about creating entertainment that is considered the gold standard of the whole world, including music, dance, film, literature?
damn the trolls are some thick fuckers
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So blacks should be more creative because they have more test, etc, but America was more creative when it was 85-90% white? Seems to be a little bit of a contradiction in there. Plus, I hate to burst your little bubble, but America has never been 85-90% white. Maybe possibly your forgetting the small matter of all the Slaves and Native Americans?
Second, almost every single truly original American cultural creation has been pioneered by blacks and appropriated by whites. Blues and Jazz, Rock and Roll (and it’s cousin country music) electronic music, Heavy Metal, DJ-ing, Hip Hop music and style, and most of the pop culture lexicon. Now I’m not saying there weren’t lots of very talented creative white people involved with the beginnings of these movements, but let’s keep it real; in their time they were denounced as nigger lovers themselves and generally looked down on. And you know who was sitting there denouncing these cultural innovations during their time (Jazz used to be called the devil’s music)? A bunch of conservative waspy assholes who’s asses were squeezed so tight, you could stuff a lump of coal between their cheeks and pull out a diamond. Just like a lot of your guys.
Most of the scientific innovation in the US hasn’t come from Americans either. That was pretty much all immigrants. We basically benefited from a brain drain that resulted from repressive and gross structural inequalities in other parts of the world.
Oh yeah, black people have been talking about running tight game since the ’70’s. Welcome to the party.
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@ The Man
You do realize that Jazz is the only truly American art form right? And I’d put Miles Davis and Jimi Hendrix up against Beethoven in terms of creativity and innovation any day. Beethoven never gave birth to cool
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Creativity seems to require two things besides intelligence:
1. Openness to Experience (one of the Big 5 personality traits)
2. Some other psychological factor which seems to be related to Psychoticism and/or Schizophrenia.
Asians are equal to whites on the former, but not the latter. The former enables people to appreciate art, but not to produce it. And Asians do seem to be able to really appreciate all sorts of Western art, but it hasn’t seems to have inspired a whole lot of imitation of it on their part.
Asian art and literature are often very good, but considering the size of Asia and the length of time it has been civilized, their artistic achievement just does not seem to be on the same level with that of Europe.
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yeah, rapping about asses is sooooo creative.
Not to get dragged in to stupid race stuff but that site, stuff BP don’t like has pointed out that the africa continent didn’t even invent alcohol or the wheel.
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“The second (and probably more vital) well is an extension of male sexual drive, and should be thought of as “insight” or extemporaneous creativity.”
The corollary to this observation would be that as women become more masculine, they would also, by extension, become more creative. The increase in creative female artists, then, indicates just how masculine women have become.
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yep, I’m sure a black dude invented the guitar, musical theory, notes, chords, trumpets, saxaphones, complex bass lines, electronic amplification, and everything else that’s cool about modern music huh?
that canard is blatantly false to anyone with a triple digit IQ.
all music is subject to endless evolution and variation, through hundreds of years. so a small group of black guys came up with “blues”, and in the rush to be uber-liberal radical hippies, the white rock stars of the 60s appropriated that sound – so what?
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Miles and Hendrix are very good, but anyone who thinks they are on the level of a Beethoven has no taste.
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Whites seem to have the best balance of creativity and intelligence if what you want is to create great masterpieces.
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“America clearly was more creative when it was 85-90% white.”
That may be the case, but there’s no evidence that race is correlated to creativity. Country of origin or familial upbringing will have a greater effect. The same time period is highly correlated to feminization of men in America, so how can the two be separated?
Also, the article from the Inductivist references an opinion poll that may say more about self-perception than anything else. These are all interesting hot-button questions, but we all come here for another reason: insight into sexual interactions.
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“if what you want is to create great masterpieces”
and what other measure would you establish creative superiority through? the ability to create moronic ghetto anthems based on sampled recordings and drum machines?
You sound terrified to come right out and say the obvious: white people have the highest level of creativity the world has ever seen, in every endeavor from dance to nuclear physics.
Think about what it means if Miles Davis and Jimmi Hendrix are the only two people who can be cited as “evidence” of black musical genius.
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How about the guy who wrote all of Elvis’ songs?
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“How about the guy who wrote all of Elvis’ songs?”
popularity does not equal creativity. those songs are all very simple and basic, precisely why they were so popular among the proles.
if you disagree then I suppose you’ll argue that Clay Aiken, Britni Spears, and P Diddy are all the great creative minds of our time.
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Begby.. you’re projecting, clearly, with that Troll comment. The world of music is forever indebted to the world of black music. Rock and roll would not exist without John Lee Hooker.
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“smearing paint on a canvas, banging on a bongo drum, and dancing like a tribesman are your ideas of creativity?
what about sending a man to the moon, inventing technology, developing civilization, and socially engineering a large and thriving middle class?”
America is heading towards the equivalent of banging on a bongo drum.
The average blog reader has NEVER seen a man put on the moon and will NEVER see American do so in their lifetime.
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So, smart people are more likely to be creative when sexually frustrated.
Zuckerberg invented Facebook because he wasn’t getting any, right? The frat boys and homeboys who spend their days getting pickled and fucking fat whores don’t do squat.
But you put the betas in the suburbs with a wife and paycheck and they can crank out code all year long.
Is our host angling for the grass hut in the plains?
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The world of music is forever indebted to the world of black music. Rock and roll would not exist without John Lee Hooker.
And young white kids buying it.
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“Safe dullness is the end game of a feminized society, while violent creativity is the hallmark of a masculinized society.”
Nah, safe dullness is the end game of masculinized society. A truly masculine society ends up pacifiying everyone.
Look at Genghis Khan’s society, look at 1950s society. Society becomes boring after the world’s collective ass is kicked.
Violence is the end game of a feminized society.
We can agree that feminists would like nothing more than to sit around, graze on berries, gossip, and watch men club each other on the head.
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Strange that the male/female balance has also been on my mind lately. I was thinking of one draw back to male dominated societies was that abstractions of good tend to dominate the society and ignore the more visceral road to paradise. I recall the war in Crimea, which I am sure Britain had its “good” reason when Florance didn’t quite get it and noticed abused and disposable man meat. Women tend not to go for that kind of in the face mayhem. Yet, tell a girl now-a-days how many people died getting her diamond from Sierra Leon, and its just an abstraction compared to all that glitters.
12 year old children in factories just make me think of where patriarchy can go wrong. Now we see the spawn of single motherhood and its coddled herbs or gang-bangers, and all sorts of poorly crafted masculinity. We need to beat their asses. They will benefit from both disciple and their ability to manage fear but also to selectively rebel in the face of resistance.
So as of now, we slide towards feminine conservatism and creative stodginess, tending to keep people from getting hurt while taking it on the chin with just as few rewards for the fewer risks. Since voting is dominated by blue haired old ladies, I am afraid we will grind into a powder of feminine dystopia. Democracy is the rule of the blue hairs.
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I think what he is trying to differentiate between, is talent vs genius.
Though if he wants to correlate tesosterone with violence, then he is wrong.
He is also wrong to say that it’s because men have become pacified, because in the first place that creativity was created by subsuming the sexual drive. Then creativity should be increasing in that case, all other things remaining equal.
Which of course isnt’ thecase, testosterone levels have been dropping in america.
“So contrary to received concerns, I believe creative stagnation should be viewed as a symptom of civilizational progress.”
I think stagnation alone will do just fine.
And,
Do blacks really have more testosterone?
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John Lee Hooker would not exist without the chain of mostly white, european, and Spanish musicians and craftsmen who developed the string instruments that ultimately became the modern guitar. Oh, they also developed all the methodology of playing the stringed instruments. So, John Lee Hooker appropriated a White instrument, White musical theory, and a White sound, added his own unique twist to it, and popularized it amongst a new demographic.
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Napoleon Hill talks about this in Chp.11 of Think & Grow Rich. He calls it ‘sexual transmutation’.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/tgr/tgr16.htm
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“Also, I have noticed when I’m oversexed by a girlfriend’s insatiable appetite (yes, it is possible to be oversexed), I start to feel claustrophobic and mentally lethargic.”
http://www.inmalafide.com/2011/02/10/falling-off-the-wagon/
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right link:
http://www.inmalafide.com/2011/01/20/why-ive-resolved-to-stop-masturbating/
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“America was *clearly* more creative when it was 80-90% white”
(laughter)
However, men tended to write bigger and better books of scholarship when they had helpful wives and (ahem) secretaries.
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The question might then be: Can one prioritize creative purpose/drive?
Is the Sword better then the Love Sonnet (or masterfully delivered neg), evolutionarily speaking?
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Begby
Where did the guitar come from? Do your homework.
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Same blog. Funny.
http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-than-one-half-of-atheists-are-dumb.html
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“Safe dullness is the end game of a feminized society, while violent creativity is the hallmark of a masculinized society”
Gold.
Easiest examples: city-states in Renaissance Italy. The Medici.
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Hilarious breakdown of pop music “creativity” by someone named “Usher”:
Pwned.
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Influence?
All I know is, The Beach Boys can do “Sweet Little Sixteen”… can Chuck Berry do “God Only Knows?”
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Oh shoot, that’s right… there’s a song on Tommy that was sorta/kinda written by Sonny Boy Williamson… what would Townshend have done without him?
(insert immane :rolleyes here)
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he’s just springboarding off what Tyler Cowen said a while back
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/04/yet_another_sal.html
teens having lots of sex aren’t going to amount to much
we all know how stupid teenage pregnant chicks are, as with their baby-daddies.
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anon@fu.com
“Look at Genghis Khan’s society, look at 1950s society. Society becomes boring after the world’s collective ass is kicked. ”
You have got to be kidding me. Not only did that empire die with him while at war, its sibling empires were constantly at war.
You then define the ensuing feminism as a product of patriarchy. That is like saying that drunkenness is not the cause of accidents but rather drinking until drunk.
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Feh,
that’s hilarious, thanks for sharing.
…
This theory about extemporaneous creativity seems similar to a thought I had that male’s creativity stems from female’s unique position as creators of life. Part of this is that by bearing and raising children females don’t have time to be creative like men can be, but it goes beyond that to the impetus to be creative. Back in the distant past, seeing a life created by a female must have seemed like magic to males (as well as females) and is the reason for many early people’s worshipping maternal fertility gods. I think that seeing this motivated men to try to one-up the females if you will… “Oh, you made a baby huh? Well can you squeeze a badass cave drawing of a buffalo out of your vagina? I didn’t think so.”
I don’t know, just a thought.
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“However, men tended to write bigger and better books of scholarship when they had helpful wives and (ahem) secretaries.”
I wonder if Ricardo had that kind of help.
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Roissy, you are confusing creativity with invention. Invention is necessity accomplished through creative production.
The USA was more INVENTIVE when it was 90% white.
The USA is more CREATIVE now, especially in the music industry. But, music has little necessity on its own. The only major influence of necessity in the music industry is produced by the music industry itself.
The only group of people who seem to NEED new music is young people…another group of the unproductive.
Do people in old folks’ homes ever say, “I’ve heard the Benny Goodman too much! I want Lady Gaga.”?
What has also added to creativity but destroyed inventivity is the welfare state. The lower need to work, instead getting paid to do nothing, means we have less necessity and more time for creativity. This is the basis of Nancy Pelousi’s words about unemployment allowing artists to work more on art.
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Horseshit. So is rock, invented by Bill Haley and the Comets, Elvis Presley, and so on. A blend of white country and black blues. For that matter so is country music. Sure it has UK and Irish Euro roots, but so does America, and it certainly developed it’s own direction here.
Maybe YOU would. But that’s because you’re a simpleton.
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Nick
Camille Paglia makes a similar argument. I don’t buy it.
Male creativity first came from confronting adversity and necessity. Now it comes more from scratching itches and wanting to make cool dreams come true.
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Asians don’t study humanities. I think all people are more or less born the same, but nurtured differently. I’m a hopeless lib.
We have cultures descended from northwestern Europe and everyone else. Of the everyone else, you have the third world, where noone really reads or learns, and then you have China and India, where everyone becomes and engineer or computer programmer.
I think northwestern Europeans have an edge because they study humanities. If you read about people in the past, you can learn from their successes and mistakes.
There you go.
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the argument wasn’t that whites are more creative then blacks or vice versa. It was pointing out that diversity dilutes creativity.
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Creativity may indeed stem in part from male sexual drive, but in most areas of life a good lot of intelligence is also the sina qua non necessary to make creative advances. This is true in engineering, inventing, creating new financial products and methods, devising better business practices, and so on.
That’s why the main black area of creativity is heavy on rhythm popular music.
Rushton has observed that when comparing NE Asian, whites and blacks on various traits, whites or Euros tend to be somewhere in between NE Asians and blacks, or Africans. However they’re generally not smack in the middle, but clustered near none pole or the other.
On intelligence, whites/Euros cluster nearer NE Asians, with the later having a bit more visiospatial/math intelligence and the same or slightly lower verbal/logical intelligence.
On testosterone and aggression, whites/Euros cluster near blacks and far from NE Asians.
This is the Goldilocks position for a number of things, including creativity in most areas, were a good lot of IQ is also required.
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And another thing:
“violence being another extension of male mating effort”
Now has the male mating effort gone up since feminism or gone down?
Or am I missing something about what mating effort constitutes?
Nick
and read the first comment.
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jd–
I had lots of sex as a teen. Starting the summer after I turned 14. I just made sure there was birth control. Starting with a condom and then only moving to without if I was sure the girl was on the pill and didn’t want to get pregnant due to school etc. And would get an abortion if the first line of defense failed. If she didn’t believe in abortion it was condoms with her – and she’d be unlikely to become my gf partly for that reason.
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Golly, what’s the answer to this riddle?
Susan Boyle =
Resulting offspring = 0
Even if women were more creative where is the incentive to out compete men in this area? Women care about this more than men do.
I wonder how well this underage girl could sing?
“McMurphy: She was fifteen years old, going on thirty-five, Doc, and she told me she was eighteen, she was very willing, I practically had to take to sewing my pants shut. Between you and me, uh, she might have been fifteen, but when you get that little red beaver right up there in front of you, I don’t think it’s crazy at all and I don’t think you do either. No man alive could resist that,”
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Arguing about relative musical creativity is sophomoric.
Did Beethoven exploit novel timbral possibilities in violin design the way Hendrix exploited overdriven amplifiers? No. Did Beethoven change the way a generation of musicians improvised, like Miles? No. Did Hendrix push the possibilities of motivic development in symphonic composition like Beethoven? No. Did Miles push string quartet harmony further than Beethoven? No. These are apples and oranges.
No simpletons are required. The best musicians know no skin color. Charlie Parker loved and admired Stravinsky. Elvis loved Arthur Crudup. I could multiply the examples.
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“But you put the betas in the suburbs with a wife and paycheck and they can crank out code all year long.”
Anything that can be “cranked out” isn’t really creative.
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roissy, i generally enjoy your posts but this one is fucking ridiculous. creativity has nothing to do with race, but i would argue chritian protestantism which brought europe out of the dark ages and sparked massive creativity throughout the west. china was responsible for many of mans greatest inventions but went silent as the west- due to christianity- surpassed them. and of course the jews, who have brought the christian tradition to the west and overthrew greek/roman mythology.
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Doug1
Yes, I know Beethoven wrote larger, and probably more, compositions than Davis and Hendrix. If that’s the measure, then yeah you right, but it’s not a very good measure of creativity and innovation. Cf. Telemann.
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Feh–
It was developed in the middle ages and renaissance across western Europe.
Yeah the idea of a stringed instrument came to the west ultimately from the Hittites in what’s now Turkey, by way of central asia according to wikipedia. But that wasn’t a guitar, or a sitar.
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yeah, that’s why Africa is overrun with guitars and sitars and harps and pianos…because they invented it.
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I can remember reading case studies on the bio-chemical effect of human sexual interaction doing grad work in college. I believe they were done by Dr. Martie Hasselton, but they outlined the endorphin and hormonal profiles present in healthy adults bloodstream’s while in various phases of attraction, arousal, pre-sex and post-sex interaction between couples. The most dramatic one to look up is the similarities in the chemical properties of dopamine and heroin for people experiencing “love” or “infatuation” depending on who’s doing the study.
Even more fascinating is the effects hormones play on portions of men’s brains when assessing sexual cues in a potential sex partner. Healthy testosterone literally causes men to perceive women as sexual objects; stimulating the same portions of our brains used for cognitive problem solving. However, testosterone is mitigated by oxytocin, the hormone secreted just post orgasm. While testosterone is responsible for sex drive and aggressive impulses (not to mention muscular development, deepening of voice and hair growth), oxytocin is linked to feelings of nurturing, trust, and comfort. Oxytocin is believed to be a primary influence in post-sex, and post pregnancy, emotional attachment in women who produce the hormone in much higher amounts than men. The effect of post-orgasm oxytocin in men is similar to women, however in men it is also serves as a buffering agent to heightened dopamine and testosterone levels. Ergo you lose your wood after you bust a nut.
In addition to all of this, there’s the role that pheromones play in regard to sexual attraction and arousal. You can google these, but there are several pheromonal studies that indicate that men with differing scents from those of women tend to attract opposite scents in women. From an evolutionary perspective the conclusion drawn is one that people of the same genotype (i.e. blood related family members) will be less aroused sexually by persons of the their own genotype, thus ensuring biodiversity (nature’s prevention plan against inbreeding). However in the same “sweaty t-shirt” studies, the perspiration of men with higher testosterone levels were deemed more sexually viable or arousing by women than men with lower T levels.
You can attribute whatever legitimacy you want to studies like this, but the evidence points to higher testosterone levels as playing an influential part in sexual attraction. Also bear in mind that pheromones influence women living in close proximity to each other to synchronize their menstrual cycles – another evolutionary mechanism to ensure fertility and communal support for social animals.
From a bio-mechanical perspective, the theory is that men who consistently masturbate are pheromonal betas – and women’s bio-chemistry registers this for them. Higher testosterone males manifest their sexual viability in both sexual assertiveness and scent. If you are chronically depleted of testosterone, and/or subjected to the calming effects of oxytocin your sexual viability is at a disadvantage. In fact, from an evolutionary standpoint, the beta males of our feral hunter-gatherer beginnings would be more prone to masturbation as a sexual release since, theoretically, they would’ve had less access to breeding opportunities than Alpha males. It would then follow that definitive, subconscious, behavioral and chemical indicators would evolve to aid females in selecting the best mate for parental investment.
So, for as much as guys would like to have you believe that snapping one out before a date will mellow you out and improve your chances of fucking the girl, odds are you’re shooting yourself in the foot. This stupid belief is rooted in the “Something about Mary” myth that women don’t want an overly sexualized man, but the biological truth is far from that. The myth is one that women need to be comfortable with a guy in order to sleep with him, so men will actively desexualize themselves in order to comply. However, all indications point to a need for sexual anxiety and tension in arousal to prompt sexual intercourse. Comfort and trust are post-orgasm conditions; anxiety, arousal and sexual urgency are pre-orgasm conditions.
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Feh–
Beethoven, Mozart, Handel, Haydn, Debussy, Verdi, etc. , etc. wrote far more beautiful and enduring music than Davis, not to mention Hendrix. No comparison at all.
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Feh–
It’s music by and for people with at least some brains though.
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Know who have a lot of sex and are very creative yet extremely effeminate? Gay men.
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@Really?!
Nonsense. Heavy metal music is purely an outgrowth of classical music, most especially Beethoven, Paganini and Bach. Blacks had zero to do with HM.
Yngwie laughs at your ignorance.
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I buy all of this. Thanks Rollo for the good comment.
I’m off to educate meself on the matter.
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It’s a centuries old truism in the creative arts — especially music writing — that performance output collapses with the arrival of the pram. ( baby carriage )
One need go no further than the Beatles to see the effect.
They broke up because of fighting spouses. The last straw was Linda McCartney’s financial gambit ( proposed by her father ) WRT royalty income.
As much as we love the arts — inventions trump the arts.
Where would film be without Eastman? Where would all of the digital arts be without J.V. Atanasoff and Clifford Berry?
To an outsized degree invention has been dominated by Northern Europeans — particularly the Ashkenazi.
Asian high art cannot be assessed at this time because they are hidden from view and ‘salted’ around Taiwan. It was removed from Peking before Japanese occupation — and made the final trip across the water during the Chinese Civil War.
( The stuff you will see in Beijing is the ‘junk’ that didn’t rate the crate! )
A couple of years back Beijing displayed their wares to Western art experts. They were impressed. Taipei was not happy. So they invited the same experts to see the Nationalist collection. The experts went home and corrected their assessments: Taipei’s collection crushes Beijing’s — it’s not even close.
If you wonder why Red China never attacks Taiwan — now you know why. It’s not an island, its a museum!
Hiding all of their best stuff going back thousands of years, Taipei frustrates anyone trying to gauge Asian art.
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Doug1
Agreed, but don’t think this allows you to knock great (and black) musicians like Duke Ellington. All those musicians you mention would have *loved* Ellington and all the rest, and have understood how jazz was pushing harmony along — and making it musical, too. Bach would’ve been delighted.
Music is like that.
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Stringed instruments are but a variation on the bow — of which the firebow figures to be common to all living humans — dating back at least 75,000 years, and likely much, much older.
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You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
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@Really?!
I can’t belive no one has called the little tard out on this:
“Plus, I hate to burst your little bubble, but America has never been 85-90% white. Maybe possibly your forgetting the small matter of all the Slaves and Native Americans?”
No my friend America was very much that White. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 50 years time Black Britons, brainwashed leftist lilly white self hating students and Asian Polacks will be saying the same thing about Europe.
Read and cry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American
America was 85%+ White for over a century.
The high point came in the 1930s and 1940s with a fraction of 89.8%.
And if you think that century was some kind of aberration… It actually gets much worse for your rainbow coloured kitsch idea of what it means to be an American, the US was actually 80%+ for 200 fucking years (from 1790 to 1990).
To be American and only American by ethnicity has always meant to be White. Indians always had their own ethnicity and Blacks went from being Negroes, to being Coloureds to being AfroAmericans to being African Americans. There was never a time in history where any nonwhite group who wasn’t White would consider itself just American.
Being a European the ignorance of this astounds me. I’m sure that by the time I’m living in a retirement home the history books will be revised to show that most of the signers of the declaration of independence where actually differently abled lesbian female black Native Americans. The few White signers of course sadistically tourchered at least one saintly Black slave every Sunday at mass because they all attended the Chruch of pure White male evilness that holds everyone in the world back from acheiving utopia.
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On testosterone and aggression, whites/Euros cluster near blacks and far from NE Asians.
I’m not sure about this. The murder rate for black men is 8 or so times that of white men. For comparison, that is about the same difference between white men and white women.
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To this whole web site… No, just no.
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What a stupid post. Clearly not roissy behind the keyboard here.
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I’m not sure about this. The murder rate …
Very good comments earlier; this one is way off. Why such a degrees-removed metric?
Murder rates are very context-affected and a function of things other than testosterone. Simple race-based comparisons of blood-test results or other physical traits is a better metric for relative T-rates.
I tend to agree that physically whites are closer to blacks than to east Asians.
[Editor: It’s probably simplistic to say murder rates are a function solely of testosterone. There could be other factors at play, such as MAOA receptors, genes affecting limbic brain architecture and, as you note, cultural variables that work in concert with the physiological traits to either inhibit or accentuate the murderous impulse.
Btw, I have seen studies showing that blacks don’t have significantly higher test than whites, but that they do have higher numbers of more sensitive androgen receptors.]
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Many whites play power/speed positions in the NFL and NBA, where blacks otherwise are most prevelant; very few EAs do.
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Speaking of Beethoven…
http://www.open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven
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Wake up white man.
You’re dying.
You’re inhabiting less and less of the world with each passing generation.
Finally you won’t have place to call your own, let alone your children.
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It’s the mantra, folks.
Wake up white man.
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“Speaking of Beethoven…
http://www.open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven”
lol
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Negroes have sloping foreheads, meaning they have smaller frontal lobes, meaning they drastically lack foresight.
Couple that with their lower IQs and higher test levels and you’ve got a pygmy-eating, mudhut-building, bastard-spawning creature.
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“America clearly was more creative when it was 85-90% white”.
LOL when was that?
[Editor: About 45 years ago, just prior the 1965 kennedy-sponsored immigration act which opened the floodgates to every third world shithole with a population begging to get out.]
I love your blog but when you go into this racial stuff you come across as a racist twit.
[Hit a nerve?]
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“LOL when was that?
I love your blog but when you go into this racial stuff you come across as a racist twit.”
when was that? during the most productive years of America which catapulted her to superpower status – the thirties through the sixties.
When you post inanities without even a perfunctory wikipedia search, you come across as a liberal douche.
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That quote on the Borgias give me a totally different view of the Assassin’s Creed series.
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[…] 100 Blogger “Roissy” aka Citizen Renegade asks a question from his latest post called The Creativity Stagnation: Does ethnic and racial diversity increase or decrease creativity? I suspect, contrary to received […]
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East asians metabolize testosterone differently.
I think WADA came out with a study showing that some non-trivial amount of E Asians can pass AA steroid drug test while being administered Testosterone (or was it other AA steroids).
If that’s the case, then the current methods of measuring T levels between populations are inadequate.
Also, as Roissy pointed out, i believe it was Abiola Lapite that pointed to studies showing that Sub Saharan Africans don’t have T levels higher than whites. But there are studies showing that they may be more sensitive.
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@Really
“Second, almost every single truly original American cultural creation has been pioneered by blacks and appropriated by whites. Blues and Jazz, Rock and Roll (and it’s cousin country music) electronic music, Heavy Metal, DJ-ing, Hip Hop music and style, and most of the pop culture lexicon.”
It always annoys the hell out of me when people say jazz, rock or blues music was “stolen” from blacks. Anyone who would say that obviously doesn’t know anything about African music. Can anyone point to any African music that’s constructed like jazz, rock or blues? No – but you can find the same chord progressions, time signatures and harmonies used in European folk music from as far back as the Elizabethan era. If blacks hadn’t stolen European folk forms first, there wouldn’t have been any blues or jazz music for whites to steal from them.
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I think northwestern Europeans have an edge because they study humanities. If you read about people in the past, you can learn from their successes and mistakes.
What the fuck?
If NW Europeans are so big on studying & learning from the past, why the fuck are they overrun with Muslims & Africans, yet once again?
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“America clearly was more creative when it was 85-90% white”.
LOL when was that?
[Editor: About 45 years ago, just prior the 1965 kennedy-sponsored immigration act which opened the floodgates to every third world shithole with a population begging to get out.]
Yeah, because middle class white Americans are laziest fuckers in the world who want others to do their shit so they can buy crap at Walmart & rich white Americans have sold out America to make an extra buck.
[Editor: Funny how middle class white americans became so lazy right around the time the third world immigrant diversity went through the roof.]
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“. Plus, I hate to burst your little bubble, but America has never been 85-90% white.”
word. yeah – Americans have always been Africanized. The population of the 13 colonies was 25% African American on the eve of the Revolution.
Why do southerners have an accent? What is “southern” food?
American music isn’t “African” or “English” — it’s a mix. duh.
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“…avoid excessive ejaculation through masturbation”.
This is an important point. Decent read on the topic:
Was the Cowardly Lion Just Masturbating Too Much?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201001/was-the-cowardly-lion-just-masturbating-too-much
Btw – when in college I used to require a wank before sitting down to write a paper, to calm me down and settle my mind. At least that’s what I told myself. But I’m starting to wonder if this was actually fuzzying-up my mind more than clearing it…
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Let’s grant the thesis that blacks are more creative because they have high testosterone. Why aren’t Polynesians or Papuans, who are also from high testosterone, violent, male dominated societies creative? Or, are they?
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http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-which-names-get-laid-the-most/
Unrelated completely, but I’d like to see a Roissy post on this.
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Expressing (or even having) an idea or concept that one has thought up internally, without being taught or prompted, requires a certain lawlessness of mind. Anyone with an extremely well bebaved brain that efficiently attends to whatever its owner directs it towards is not likely to consciously apprehend anything truly original.
Creative genius is quite rare. It requires high intelligence, drive and ambition and self discipline to make something happen, and a brain that has a porous gate between consciousness and the chaos of the world as it is. Hitting 3 out of 3 is unlikely.
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were really talking about aesthetic creativity right? invention type creativity is good for mankind but rarely for the individual (unless you get rich), this doesn’t seem to be true for aesthetic creativity which always seems to have some sort of payout. mileage may vary
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Ever seen Revolutionary Road? I’m reminded of Leo’s character when you say marriage inhibits the creative side of men. I think that in large part that’s true. And becoming more true with the male to female power shift in marriages these days.
It could be that This change is solely responsible and that the ethinicity point is merely a reflection of that…
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@feral1404
No it wasn’t you tool, Metal came about from a mix of American blues and classical music processed through English musician sensibilities.
Before Black Sabbath was Black Sabbath they were a blues cover band.
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White’s not even a race.
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Don’t underestimate the pull of being an unmarried “baby mamma” with no future, it’s like a burqah and honor killing being “empowering” for some twits…
My high school valedictorian got pregnant and dropped out in her last semester, blew scholarship $$$ and plans galore… last I saw her, she was working minimum wage at the grocery store checkout counter. Went from high-speed, don’t-take-no-sh*t achievement minded to contentedly going “girl, he need to take care of his baby,” etc. pretty much overnight. (Failure plucked from the jaws of victory.)
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Great stuff Rollo. I read something similar about the scent thing; in people who sleep together who have similar MHC genes, the woman spontaneously aborts the fetus (without her knowing). Scent is somehow a signal of MHC compatibility.
Are you just personally interested in this stuff, or does it relate to your occupation – something sciency?
I’ve enjoyed reading your posts, they’re high quality.
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I wonder if the thing about whites being more creative than asians is really true. It sounds kind of bogus to me. Asians definitely seem less creative, but I suspect they’re just less aggressive. I bet asians are just more timid and shy, so they wind up not expressing their creative ideas publicly. Still, it would be nice to get some formal numbers to analyze.
Oh, and blacks definitely did NOT invent heavy metal. Metal came out of British hard rock bands from the 60s-70s.
And yes, America did reach 90% white, in the 20th century. It was due to the immigration laws of the time which insured the overwhelming majority of immigrants were white Europeans. The 1965 law reversed that, and America was changed forever. It really is amazing how fast the demographic transition happened.
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Inventiveness and creativity are linked. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven showed up at the same time as the piano. Rock’n’roll happened as the same time as the fender bass and multi-track recording. Abstract painting was a reaction to the photograph, etc.
The desire to stand out amongst your peers seems to be another way of describing the artistic drive. However, there are times when people instead seek community and order. Perhaps, diversity and a sense of inferiority has driven whites to more traditional comforts.
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“Does ethnic and racial diversity increase or decrease creativity? I suspect, contrary to received wisdom, that diversity above a certain minimum threshold decreases creative output. America clearly was more creative when it was 85-90% white.”
You know, the wishful thinking non-sequiturs I read here are starting to piss me off.
This is starting to read like the O’Reilly factor with a game/evopsych-related post every now and then.
Would you kindly cut the bullshit and cater to your niche market?
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What about the inventiveness and creativity required to figure out better ways to kill , maim and destroy your enemies and in doing so to take control of their land and resources ?
Many of the inventions throughout history have been as a result of trying to gain an edge over one’s enemies and trying to kill the enemy more efficiently; killing more of them than they kill of yours.
As far as the development of weapons goes, I’d say America has done quite well so far.
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[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Creative Author, foryourhaironly. foryourhaironly said: The Creativity Stagnation « Citizen Renegade: Asian art and literature are often very good, but considering the … http://bit.ly/et9tqa […]
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All this is meaningless conjecture for beta males to ruminate on. Who gives a fuck?
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Well shit the bed! Someone is starting to get it.
You have to be hungry to fight…if your weapon is your mind, then you can’t possibly expect to fight when your so full you can barely move. 🙂
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It’s a pretty true observation – at least regarding men/women.
I work in advertising, and I’d comfortably say that the creative arm of the industry (i.e. the people whose entire job is to think up the ideas / draw the pictures) is 98% male.
On the other hand administrative jobs are about 80% female. So there you have it.
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Some of the posts and comments on sexual relations are quite interesting applications of evolutionary psychology. Some are not.
The blatant and sometimes subtle posts and supporting comments on race and white superiority, like this one, are quite moronic and are surprising given the intellect evident in the sexual posts.
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I don’t know if this will be a contradiction or a reinforcement, but I read that the except to the the age range of creativity is extended even into the 50s if the person remains unattached.
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DFCtomm –
What if it was more then just a sliding scale. What if under our fiery drive there was something more, the torrent of lava.
There you might find that creativity is infinite and the defiance of the impossible last long after you’ve been rejected to accepted by whatever social framework your biologically and epigenetically desiring.
…or you might not. I found it, so I assume this occurs for all men who suffer and succeed enough.
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” The blatant and sometimes subtle posts and supporting comments on race and white superiority, like this one, are quite moronic and are surprising given the intellect evident in the sexual posts.”
How can someone be a moron then turn into a intellect? Leftist cognitive dissonance. This post kills your pretty lie and that really hurts.
Science should be free of the one world politics even more in HBD science. The rising asia influence will kill off the one worlders who are hell bent on destruction themselves.
There are creative asians just less than whites their critical mass still makes up for it. Still too late for the once great west. What a loss.
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Despite the stereotype of scientific discovery and creativity being the result of hard-eyed, rigorous application of the scientific method (falsification, etc), many (if not most) true breakthroughs have come from dogged persistence by one individual (almost always a man, or high testosterone woman) against all logic and objective reason, just because they were damn sure they were right, and they wanted to “win”.
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Also, does anyone really want to go back to the 50s?
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east asia was responsible for innumerable innovations early in history but went dark because christianity took over in europe (particularly protestantism). asia has been dark ever since but it has nothing to do with race. i think martial arts is one of the most clever, imaginative things man has ever created. i suspect asia will begin to make a comeback with their newfound confidence….it’s all about confidence.
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“Oh, you guys are otherwise so intelligent… but when you talk about race, you’re idiots.”
Riiiiight… it’s that Jekyll & Hyde juice we knock back between chess tournaments and Klan rallies, Jasper.
And as far as the alleged African heritage of Beethoven… nigga please.
Breaking news: Berkeley professor claims that Genghis Khan was gay… film at 11:00.
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@Tooheys
“No it wasn’t you tool, Metal came about from a mix of American blues and classical music processed through English musician sensibilities.
Before Black Sabbath was Black Sabbath they were a blues cover band”
Nonsense back you double tool. Black Sabbath utilized modal scale progressions, tritone and chromatic progressions, and the use of pedal points, all bases of classical music, just like Zeppelin and the other UK imitators. Power chords involve one main interval, generally the perfect fifth (though an octave may be added as a doubling of the root). These are classical music concepts, fool, not blues-based progressions.
Your ignorance is demonstrable and proven.
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yeah, you had me going for a while. I thought there was some common sense attitudes going on here. i enjoyed reading and learning.But now I see this is a bunch of racist garbage. I am out. also America…..currently 80% white. Google exists
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@ Shiloruh, etc
Where pretty lies perish…
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Not sure I buy the argument that testosterone is related to creativity. To prove it beyond sweeping generalizations, you’d have to have records of the t-levels of creative men or women. Even then, it’d be complicated because some individuals have lower overall levels of testosterone but use it more efficiently; others have higher levels but don’t make such good use of it.
Less scientifically, for every womanizing/incorrigibly homo promiscuous genius I can think of — and there were a lot (Picasso, Einstein, Byron) I can think of ascetic or more or less faithfully married ones as well — Bruckner, Galileo Michelangelo, GB Shaw, Wittgenstein.
I’m surprised at how little scientific creativity is considered in the comments. And I’d further say that, in medical engineering, there continue to be amazing developments that don’t receive the same coverage as Lady Gaga.
I have a strong bias towards evolutionary psychology and the biological foundation of behavior, but you can’t ignore the role of culture and society plays in this. If a mathematical genius were to appear in the Dinku tribe c. 1200 — or even in the Polish steppes in c900 — that ability would probably be wasted. You need a correspondence of tools, mental models and an understanding of the importance of the discovery to preserve a creative advance.
And: what exactly is white? Black?
[Editor: What exactly is a desert? A grassy plains? Do these ecosystems not exist? Are their boundaries not fuzzy?]
It’s tough to be intellectually rigorous while taking a whole continent of diverse people who have been cross bred over centuries and make blanket statements.
If you do want to take it to purity/mix, I’d have to say history is on the mixing side, with an important exception. You look at the vitality of America, and that’s all about mixing gene pools that were closed off — Italian, Irish, English, German and so on for the whites, and the same for the African Americans who’s tribes got mixed. Same goes for Russia, which has always had disastrous politics, but amazing culture — again, across science and the arts. Russians are among the most mixed whites around.
On the other hand: It’s odd how little thought anyone has given to the Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews. They’re an easily definable group. They are also — and I say this as a teuton/celt gentile — the most accomplished ethnic group by any measure — whether in science, art, music, literature, mathematics, business — you name it, some creative Jew has probably done something remarkable in that field. It’s tedious to have this always pointed out, usually by a Jewish person, but it is true.
Maybe we should just measure their testosterone and see — a lot more sensible than saying a whole continent of diverse and mixed up ethnicities has greater or lesser creativity.
Overall, though, it’s a great point R makes about the importance of courage, risk and growth in the development of creativity.
And just in case, I’m off to pump some iron and grill a steak.
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I don’t know how one could evaluate and compare creativity across different art forms, or even within the same art form.
Making qualitative judgments between Hendrix, Miles Davis and Beethoven are ridiculous. All you can do is break down their music and compare how they are different.
Melodically, Beethoven and Miles Davis blow away Hendrix. Rhythmically, Miles and Hendrix blow away Ludwig. Complexity, melodic theme and sonic depth, Beethoven blows away both. Improvisionally, Hendrix and Miles run circles around Beethoven. It all depends on what criteria you are evaluating the music. Of the three, I’m probably the biggest fan of Hendrix, but his artistic innovation is probably much less than Beethoven- he was a great improvisational blues guitarist that happened to be the first to play that style through the electronic technology of 60s rock music, and using that new technology he was an innovator within that genre of music. Miles really just expanded upon a genre of music that was already well established. Honestly, James Brown, Ray Charles and Herbie Hancock probably contributed more in that they opened the door to introducing jazz rhythms into popular music, thus giving birth to funk, hiphop, and modern R&B.
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Lots of racism in the comments. The basic premise is still good.
Two kinds of creative juice. One based on native intelligence; the other on sexual competition.
Evidence for this dynamic is everywhere. Male mathematical/musical brilliance (as a specifically *male* phenomenon) peaking in the 20’s, then going downhill, a clearly biological fact (probably neurochemical; might be induceable, who knows what miracle-drug treatments we might get: A Pill For Smarty-ness! Only $99.99!).
And then there’s creative intelligence that lasts a lifetime. Usually, it’s connected to some imbalance (certain kinds of crazies are often more intelligent). On the other hand, truly smart people – what, 15-20% of the population max – can maintain some kind of creative intelligence their whole lives. I’d point out that the crazy-smart thing is usually male, too.
Women get some but not all of this. Hence: women are obviously and undeniably more resistant to new ideas, more likely to engage in “group-think” and more likely to take the safe route.
Women who step outside boundaries are usually also high-T types; they’re also usually more sexual (ie, have high-T characters), often identify more readily with men, and are usually difficult for the mass of women to get along with.
Lesbians are often among this group. I’ve seen a lot of that. That said, it’s usually the high-T butch-type lesbians (ie, more male-character identified).
SWPLs and lesbians and the like can bitch and whine about it, but these observations fit with what I’ve seen.
Incidentally, this also accounts for some HBD race-notes.
– If Africans have a different IQ distribution (say, 1 standard deviation lower), this doesn’t preclude genius (beyond mere statistics).
Sexual competition is world-wide. Music, as a key example, as well as art, are absolutely core sexual and mate-selection tools. I’d say that men who are keen sexual competitors (ie, stereotypical views of Black men), would also be keen musicians and artists, as a rule.
This is what I observe.
Music/artistic talents are clearly heavily influenced by genetics. I’d suggest that music is its own faculty and is independent.
So this all accords with what I see. No absolutes, but clear trends.
If blacks don’t have lower IQs, or if they do, isn’t particularly germane to the general observation of types of creative sources.
All of this seems like a good working hypothesis to me. There’s lots of anecdotal evidence, but little else to go on. Some solid science would be nice.
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Mr. Primitive,
I’m not putting down jewish people, but I can’t really recall too many jewish innovators in the fields of art and music. Ashkenazi’s are believed by some to be genetically related to turks and persians (Kazar hypothesis), which would make them essentially caucasians anyway. Probably more caucasian than the average caucasian in america because up until the 1960s, they were a pretty tight knit, non-diverse breeding population. I’m not inclined to make sweeping statements about any inherent differences they may possess, but if generalizations had to be made, I would say that jews tend to excel at playing the game. They don’t create the game or the rules, but they work extremely hard, and operate with a subtle preference towards other jews.
– an american cracker with english/jewish ancestry
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yeh western civilization would fall apart and shrivel creatively and technologically if all the schvugs and hispanics magically disappeared off the face of the earth–uh huh, that’s right, no more peanut butter, booty dancing and singing through the nose for you, white man!
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Folks the reason China — the center of East Asian culture — lags so badly in terms of art and invention is because they are not legally or politically respected. That’s it.
A court eunuch invented paper circa 106AD…
Other Chinese inventions —
Gunpowder
Skyrockets
Crossbow
Rapid-fire, belt-fed crossbow (!)
Massive iron castings
China ( the ceramic )
Silk ( every aspect )
Extensive inland transport canals
But today Beijing recognizes no copywrite/patent/trade secret. They say they do, but they don’t.
Consequently even major music hits produce virtually nothing for the artists.
The don’t do R&D: they use spies to steal secrets from everybody. Even Russia has discovered that China has stolen essentially all of her military technology! Germany, France, Britain and America are all complaining — behind closed doors.
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The thing about masturbation, sex drive and the ability to temper these drives respective to race seems especially relevant to me.
Let’s take into account first as a given (with respect to the Cowardly Lion article provided by Fap) that productive ‘drives’ such as the arts and to a lesser extent the sciences are sublimations (i.e. acceptable productive appropriations) of sex drive, and that sexual gratification past a certain frequency detracts from those more productive drives. Testosterone levels affect that balance.
Before we go into the race thing, notice how musical talent is vaguely speaking, inversely proportional to testosterone levels. Example: who’s the better artist, 50 Cent or Andre 3000? And who has evidently more testosterone? But they’re on equal standing with the ladies! Clearly women recognise artistic prowess as a worthy sublimation of drive.
Now onto race:
-China is not a very sexualised culture, but even though Chinese men probably have lower testosterone levels compared to other races, all humans have at least some sex drive but thanks to their culture, which champions long-term foresight, academic achievement and general intellectual development over short-term gratification, the average Chinese male has enough to occupy his mind to keep him off thoughts of sex. In their culture, dishonouring one’s parents is worse than being a virgin by 21. Over generations their society probably selected for that type of character. They are innovative.
-SSA’s on the other hand, having the highest testosterone, make that immediate gratification more of an imperative, hence their strong sex drive and highly honed skill of mate acquisition (the stereotypes have a ring of truth in it), and their interpretation of Christianity to be ecstatic displays of dancing and dramatic preaching rather than solemn, dignified sermons as evident in Europe. This is not of course, me passing value judgement on SSA’s, just that their cultures are predicated on something very different to those of China and respectively their society selected for certain traits over time. SSA’s are creative.
-Europeans, as per the Bell Curve theory, lie somewhere in between. On a scale from Creativity to Innovativity, with ‘Creative’ extreme meaning game, and ‘Innovative’ meaning science/technology, and the arts becoming in between. And that’s what Europeans excel at. Europeans created the best art. Of course, SSA’s descendents in the US had some pretty hot licks, but most of the music they spawned has a strong sexual undertone to it, seemingly as if the music is a means to a sexual end. Hendrix was more a part of my childhood than Beethoven and as a kid I found the former ‘cooler’, but no way can you put them in the same ballpark. That’s just tiresome SWPL bullshit talk. Hendrix had some hot jams but could he compose for an orchestra? Could he fuck. Europeans have centuries of art, African-Americans have had one. But yeah, back on track, the ‘winners’ in European society are not the sexually voracious proles, or the beta scientists, but the rock stars, entrepreneurs and other such savvies.
Seriously, not worrying about being ‘racist’ opens so many doors. Genetics, differences between peoples therein and the derived cultural differences account for far more than most of us are comfortable realising. But according to modern Western discourse, we’re all intelligent until we go past an arbitrary line in the sand, whenceforth all the hand-flappers will BAWWWW and we will be labelled neanderthal bigots. Ditto the notion of ‘generalisations’, which are just that – saying something is generally the case.
Face it, equality simply doesn’t exist outside of mathematics. Out of all the observable phenotypical and genetic differences that exist between humans, what makes you think that intelligence and character disposition won’t be among them?
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lol lol lotz
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shouldn’t a feminist icon issue a grand, sweeping, obama-esque public apology to men in general for all the shit women have run on them.
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Konkvistado–
There’s active propaganda to the contrary in the schools by the left, enforce and made universal through Political Correctness.
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blert-
I don’t know about that last. I’d say more particularly by Calvanist protestants of one flavor or another if one goes back to the industrial revolution and before that the scientific one. And lets not forget Edison, Ford, and all those German chemists.
Ashkenazi Jews have been impressive in invention in high science in 20th century, mostly.
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It’s clear to me how intertwined the MRA and WN movements really are. Clearly Roissy is a crypto-WN and a wonderful ally to have on our side. It’s best to pretty much ignore anything Gorbechev has to say o the matter as people of his ilk always try to confuse, befuddle and stifle any honest discussion of race except when it comes to how superior the jews are to everyone else.
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maybe pouring all our money, time, effort and resources into the giant gaping maw of the government created underclass is somehow sapping our collective creative forces?
nah
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Gorbachev–
Musical talent seems to be more independent than most other types of mental ability, but it’s almost certainly nothing close to totally independent. Facility for the more complex harmonies of symphonic and chamber music, not to mention creating them, seems to be a whole lot more g loaded than being a great drummer, singer, or even guitar player.
I doubt if many acclaimed rappers have IQs lower than say 90, which is above the black mean, and I’d guess most have ones quite a bit higher.
But yeah most really smart people have poor musical ability. So a lot of independence.
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Doug1
I give you the movable type printing press, the diamond racket, gold and silver smithing — and the rag trade.
Generally the Ashkenazi limited themselves to stuff that could be packed up and moved in a hurry.
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I would post on this provocative topic
but won’t waste more of my words
This thread probably will be pulled
once Obsiddie (or his tribe)
files some sort of
complaint or
whatnot
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@blert
Doug1
I give you the movable type printing press, the diamond racket, gold and silver smithing — and the rag trade.
Generally the Ashkenazi limited themselves to stuff that could be packed up and moved in a hurry.
Footloose and fancy-free, because ye had to be.
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@Firepower
I would post on this provocative topic
but won’t waste more of my words
This thread probably will be pulled
once Obsiddie (or his tribe)
files some sort of
complaint or
whatnot
I see you’ve graduated to poeticality.
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I just laugh and laugh at the turds here who can accept the obvious facts of the gender war, but get all twisted up in pretty lies and liberal propaganda when the subject turns to race.
They clearly accept the premise that mainstream society and media is capable of a 50-year brainwashing campaign when it comes to feminism, but they just can’t grasp that the same brainwashing has been used regarding race.
poor, pathetic little turds
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Doug1 “….and all those German chemists. ”
Every single one of those German scientists, composers, philosophers etc. were Ashkenazim.
Einstein, Schiele, Haber, Mahler, Bach, Planck, Mendelssohn, Gauss, Boltzmann, Schoenberg, Brahms, Kant, Hegel, Wegener, Marx, etc. were Ashkenazim. Every one. All credit for the tremendous creative and scientific output of late 18th to early 20th century Germany must go to the Jewish influence and no one else.
The germans are very good at organizing a small enterprise and growing it but not creating anything new and innovative.
The Krauts would have rather continued slaughtering one another and their neighbors, but the Ashkenazim were the civilizing, leavening agent of their society. Hitler chased them out and look what happened.
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@Doug1
Musical talent seems to be more independent than most other types of mental ability, but it’s almost certainly nothing close to totally independent. Facility for the more complex harmonies of symphonic and chamber music, not to mention creating them, seems to be a whole lot more g loaded than being a great drummer, singer, or even guitar player.
This is true. There are obviously multiple elements involved. But you can be sharp as a tack and super smart without having a lick of musical talent, or even ability to appreciate it. On the other hand, you can be musically gifted and not that bright; and there are different kinds of musical gift.
I think you’re right when you notice how g-loaded some musical skills are (polyphonic variable-harmonied multiple-source composing, for example), versus really being able to bang the shit out of a set of drums or smash a tune out of an electric guitar.
But there’s something going on there.
I doubt if many acclaimed rappers have IQs lower than say 90, which is above the black mean, and I’d guess most have ones quite a bit higher.
Most of the people I’ve met who can rap well are pretty bright. Anyway, they’re very articulate.
But yeah most really smart people have poor musical ability. So a lot of independence.
I’d go further, too.
I think a sense of humor is also a separate faculty. The ability to be funny (to appreciate it and to produce humor) is correlated with intelligence, as well, but seems to be a distinct ability.
I’m guessing these are “modules” in the human cognitive structure. They need to be calibrated, but some even seem to work against each other.
There are other “modules”, too. The ability to recognize faces (some people lose this – it’s pretty interesting to note), the ability to see patterns (some see them better than others without having any other major differences), the ability to crunch numbers (idiot savants), the ability to learn language, the ability to use language, the ability to use symbolic language (all three of these separate but related skills), the ability to perform abstract relational thinking (math), various musical ability, kinesthetic sense (this also seems to be a separate faculty – the ability to move, obviously useful for sexual attraction), …
We could probably come up with a solid list of things that are likely full-on hard-wired (or partly hard-wired) brain-modules that we inherit and express through embryology and use.
One I’ll suggest: Directional sense. The legendary and not anecdotal inability of many women to orient themselves, or rather the far superior ability of men to do so. Carrying around a mental map in your head and constantly updating it: Men seem to do this far better than women.
My GF is useless at this. So are most of the women I’ve ever known. Almost all men I know are very good at this. You see this when some men are humiliated by not being able to immediately read a map: They know they’re supposed to, and most other men can.
Women are also better at verbal sparring. It’s obvious. Without thinking about it, they can bite down and hold like a rabid dog; men have a harder time.
Other modules, …
The ability to discern non-moving objects (we share with most mammals), the ability to measure pressure when holding things, so as not to crush them (also shared with other animals), the ability to evaluate the force necessary to perform certain tasks, the ability to distinguish between dangerous and safe animals.
This last one is interesting. There’s some evidence that we respond badly to many animals instinctively; a module in the brain that is preprogramed not to like certain animals, usually poisonous ones. Without prompting, many young children are said to dislike snakes. Many people are predisposed to like furry little animals with big eyes relative to their head; if not mammalian solidarity, it could be a misuse of the “babies are cute look at those big eyes” thing calibrated normally for human babies, but it could also be a general “small mammals are harmless and good to eat” thing.
Whereas snakes, … best stayed away from.
All of these things would be functions of modules in the brain.
Musical ability might have several “modules”. You can easily imagine one form of musical ability emerging even before speech; others tacking on to it afterwards, forming separate but related “modules”.
Clearly, though, genetics don’t endow everyone with equal shares of these skills. Many of these seem to be heavily influenced by the gender that the genes find themselves in.
The same genes that code for, say, increased spatial awareness and ability to transform objects in 3 dimensions in abstract form (ie, map reading and tesselating objects), might exist in both males and females. It could be a brother and sister.
The brother has a daughter who has the same genes. The sister has a son who has the same genes.
But it’s possible, and almost likely, that they get fully “expressed” when used in the brother and the sister’s son, and not the in the sister or the brother’s daughter.
I don’t see why any of this is controversial. More and more science is uncovering the basic truths of these observations. Our brains are modular and function as integrated systems of components. Our consciousness seems to be built up from these many subsidiary and integrated systems.
I mean, there are people who lose the ability to recognize faces – but nothing else.
If it works for basic perceptual processing, for specific skills (math or music or one of the various verbal abilities), for memory (of several types), then–
Why the hell wouldn’t it ALSO be true for average IQ (overall ability to abstract), for tendency to be aggressive in certain circumstances, for tendency to be dishonest or to cheat in social situations (“Nice banana. Gimme.”), tendency to overreact emotionally, tendency to drug addiction, etc.
Also true for things like: Addiction to sexual stimulation (some women I’ve know, also some men I’ve heard from), …
I mean, you can see patterns at work.
ANYONE who has ever studied anything about human cognition, human biology or stats has to admit the palpable truth of observations like this. There’s no concrete way to deny them.
At some point, anti-racism types are going to have to admit that there are clear patterns in the development of many of these things.
Just because someone is dumber than the next guy, doesn’t make him inherently less valuable to society as a whole. Just because Australian aborigines may be, on average, less bright in some ways than anyone else, doesn’t make them LESS human.
In the same way, a dumb sister (or a bitchy sister) is still as human as I am. Not having musical ability doesn’t mean fewer rights (or responsibilities) accrue to me as a human being.
This is what pisses me off about the standard SWPL reaction to any comments on the obvious characters of human nature and human biology. Apparently, we’re animals, except where the brain is concerned.
On the other hand, while they may be socially-motivated and have political agendas, racists are on to more truth than the self-blinded liberals. It’s sad, but obviously true.
Biologists talk about this privately. They acknowledge the obvious facts.
There’s a difference between being a vicious ethnic chauvinist or racially motivated psychopath and acknowledging human biology.
But, of course, anyone who talks about human biology is a racist.
We can’t even talk about people as subjects of study without being called racists.
Because we need to ascribe to Group Think.
Virtually everything known by biologists and neurologists about human cognition and the human brain (limited though that is) is anathema to liberals.
I just had a lunchtime discussion with a few people. I can’t even point shit out without them going to town on the smallest assault on their worldview.
One woman, a speech pathologist by training no less, was particularly livid at the notion that human language is an automatic skill, a module programmed to learn language that becomes ossified (or set) by about age 12 (puberty). This is fucking obvious to anyone who knows anything about the science of language. Grammar is logical in a genetically-programmed kind-of way. Chomsky buried any other approach years ago, buried and nailed the door shut. No refuting it now. There are even case studies of people with brain injuries who lose one ability (grammar), but not others; who maintain grammar but have no ability to compose meaningful sentences; etc.
She just went at me for half an hour. THE MIND IS A BLANK SLATE ITS PROGRAMMABLE AT ANY TIME HUMAN MINDS ARE CHANGEABLE IN ANY WAY ITS ALL ENVIRONMENT.
Obviously, this is not true.
Her antipathy to any other view is obviously related less to knowledge and facts and more to ideology.
These facts just MUST not be true for her worldview to be valid.
Frustrating.
This is what turned me away from SWPLism and liberal hooey. It’s hooey.
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@Marc
It’s clear to me how intertwined the MRA and WN movements really are. Clearly Roissy is a crypto-WN and a wonderful ally to have on our side. It’s best to pretty much ignore anything Gorbechev has to say o the matter as people of his ilk always try to confuse, befuddle and stifle any honest discussion of race except when it comes to how superior the jews are to everyone else.
I dislike racial hooey from the WNs as much as I dislike racial hooey from SWPLs.
If people are going to misuse science for social goals, I reserve the right to piss on their social goals should I see fit. The miniscule number of WNs and the utter weenieness of most of them, the pathetic mangina-white chick bootlicking patheticness of WNs generally make me want to vomit.
What makes me embarrassed is that these are my own being retards. A bunch of black dudes being retards – fine. They don’t have illusions about they and me belonging to the same social group.
But white nationalists and their mangina tendencies make me want to wretch at the putrid excrescence of their existence.
I guess I’m a liberal self-hating white guy because I try to make two very salient points that escape the singular intelligences of WNs:
– We have to live with blacks/women/Jews/anyone with an American passport
– Culture is far from a zero-influence factor.
But those things make me a traitor.
Maybe I should be like WNs, get myself a basement to live in, put on 50 lbs and start babbling about conspiracies and collecting guns.
Real winner strategy.
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Bluesky, you’re really funny. If you’re going to claim Bach and Guass, go all the way and take Schroedinger, Heisenberg, Leibnitz, Beethoven, Mozart, Goethe, Schiller…
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Yep,
let me know
when you graduate ESL 101
so you can tell me
what the word
poeticality means
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Gorb,
What about men who can’t stop talking! lol!!!
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“Folks the reason China — the center of East Asian culture — lags so badly in terms of art and invention is because they are not legally or politically respected. That’s it.”
Neither is anyone else. This very blog is an example. Roissy is certainly no more respected than Copernicus was by the Catholic church. However one culture is more likely to break the mold, not only the instigator but the early adopters as well. What’s missing? Balls.
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@What,
Men who can’t stop talking are likely suffering from Workus Boredicus. A terrible ailment that afflicts far too many men. It’s thankfully generally not terminal.
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@Gorbachev
@What,
“Men who can’t stop talking are likely suffering from Workus Boredicus. A terrible ailment that afflicts far too many men. It’s thankfully generally not terminal.”
lol!!! I’m with Firepower….please finish your ESL course and explain Workus Boredicus. Ngai ho siu!!!! hehehhe!!
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I agree with about all of that Gorby. Good comment.
At a given level of IQ this is true.
It’s also true that women tend to be much better at pushing emotional buttons when verbally sparing.
Partly this is cultural. There’s no equivalent to “man up”. There’s not much of a cultural equivalent to a woman accusing a man of being controlling. Doesn’t carry the same zing.
But partly women just tend to have more social intelligence. It’s what they spend their non work time (and a lot of work time too) thinking and talking about, social rivalries, alliance building, status jockeying, etc.
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A person’s sense of rhythm is completely uncorrelated with intelligence.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/04/do-cops-need-much-iq.html
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Gorbachev
Nice post, but I hope you were at least getting blown while writing all that.
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@pimpan
Gorbachev
Nice post, but I hope you were at least getting blown while writing all that.
That would spice up the afternoon a treat.
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@pimpan
Gorbachev
“Nice post, but I hope you were at least getting blown while writing all that.”
lol!!!!
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@Doug1
“I agree with about all of that Gorby.”
sooo, do you wear the same underwear too? he!
btw, someone wrote in another post that i say things that are sweet, naive and utterly meaningless….I guess I’m in my meaningless cycle. ha!
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@what
@Doug1
“I agree with about all of that Gorby.”
sooo, do you wear the same underwear too? he!
We both shop at the same place. They have discounts on alternate Thursdays. Though I can’t say I’m a fan of his style.
btw, someone wrote in another post that i say things that are sweet, naive and utterly meaningless….I guess I’m in my meaningless cycle. ha!
Does it ever end?
Sounds more steady-state to me.
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“Most of the people I’ve met who can rap well are pretty bright. Anyway, they’re very articulate.”
Is IQ or g strictly correlated with verbal dexterity? I consider myself somewhat bright, but i know for sure that my verbal dexterity is poor. Anyway, maybe i lack social skills.
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@Pro,
All of these traits are variously related bags of skills. It’s likely possible to have some without any others; it’s also possible that many are in the same bag, and if you’re good at X, then you can also do A, B and C. But the specifics may vary.
Anyway, these things are absolutely constructed by patterns set by genes. Expressed and developed by the environment (neurological pathways are reinforced and reprogrammed all the time), but there’s a heavy amount of genetic influence going on, too.
If genes can influence growth, muscle distribution and denticular development, then they can influence brain development.
Who knows what the relationships are. Neurology has just started in on all of this. At some point, I suspect they’ll have it all mapped out. And then they’ll find genetic markers for certain developmental traits.
Tendency to steal? Likely related to a few traits. Estimate their likelihood, and you get prediction of criminality.
Likelihood of be a two-timing golddigger versus a romantic? Probably also predictable from genes on some level.
Likelihood to be a psychopath or killer? Same.
At some point, we’ll take the magic out of all of this and understand it.
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@Doug1
“I agree with about all of that Gorby.”
sooo, do you wear the same underwear too? he!
“We both shop at the same place. They have discounts on alternate Thursdays. Though I can’t say I’m a fan of his style.”
I’m laughing so hard I nearly blew my apple juice onto my computer! lol!!!
btw, someone wrote in another post that i say things that are sweet, naive and utterly meaningless….I guess I’m in my meaningless cycle. ha!
“Does it ever end?
Sounds more steady-state to me.”
No I don’t think it will ever end hehe!!…..It makes life more interesting. Plus, it’s great..I can drive everyone crazy!!! lol!!!
You do write great comments, but the thought of you and Doug1 wearing the same underwear is not too appetizing!!! lol!!!
Have a great day!
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Then what will the “Blank Slate” liberals do?
Throw down their iphones, go out into the wilderness and start hunting and gathering?
Seriously.
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Einstein, Schiele, Haber, Mahler, Bach, Planck, Mendelssohn, Gauss, Boltzmann, Schoenberg, Brahms, Kant, Hegel, Wegener, Marx, etc. were Ashkenazim.
It’s funny that anyone would string together a list of names of such variable extremes of merit… putting Shoenberg in the same sentence as Brahms, or Mendelssohn in the same sentence as Bach is, well… a bit ridiculous.
But not as ridiculous as maintaining that B & B were Jewish…
Try to leave the pseudo-history and expanded geneologies to the Afrocentrists, there’s a good fellow.
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@Bluesky:
I know of several on your list who were not Jewish. Brahms, Bach, were both Protestants. Hegel was a Lutheran Minister as was Kant, who also happened to be a professor. Sorry, no motzahballs for you!
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@bluesky: “Einstein, Schiele, Haber, Mahler, Bach, Planck, Mendelssohn, Gauss, Boltzmann, Schoenberg, Brahms, Kant, Hegel, Wegener, Marx, etc. were Ashkenazim. Every one.”
Bach, Planck, Gauss, Boltzmann, Brahms, Kant: not even remotely Ashkenazim. Those are all as German as bratwurst. I don’t think Hegel or Schiele were Jewish either. Yes, Jewish people made many important contributions to culture and the sciences, all out of proportion to their small numbers, but you sound like the kinds of clowns who assert Beethoven and the Ancient Greeks were black men.
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At first I could not understand how the Chinese nerds invented paper. The process is so sophisticated and the end result is not intuitive at all.
Then it occurred to me that they were mimicking the entire mulberry to silk process.
Then everything fell into place!
The larval Bobyx mori chew the mulberry and through the magic of their gut grow and spin the fiber.
Tree mass is pulped, dissolved, spread and dried out in imitation of the larvae. Without the example of the moth — there would have been no inspirational jump.
China hid both arts for centuries – -and made a killing on exports. The Silk Road was also a Paper Road!
( Just ask Polo. )
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Wake up white man. All you gotta say
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@Gorbachev
“Then what will the “Blank Slate” liberals do?
Throw down their iphones, go out into the wilderness and start hunting and gathering?
Seriously.”
Gathering yes, hunting no, not nice you see.
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Gorb,
“Then what will the “Blank Slate” liberals do?”
They’ve gone from Blank Slate to Blank Check.
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@desiderius
Gorb,
“Then what will the “Blank Slate” liberals do?”
They’ve gone from Blank Slate to Blank Check.
Damn right they have.
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Part of the decline in creativity is no doubt a result of the way that modern society encourages people to take SO LONG to grow up and start DOING things.
You leave secondary school at 18, and then it’s four, five, or six more years sitting in classrooms in college before you get your first job, and you’re probably deep in debt, so there’s no time to experiment with opportunities; you have to go straight into an honest job.
But you’re far better off than most of the poor fools who spend MORE precious time trying to earn graduate degrees. A lot of them will be lucky to finish by 30. For men, at least, the years of maximum potential creativity are over by then.
Have you seen the 100 reasons not to go to grad school?
http://100rsns.blogspot.com/
Even institutions that claim to cultivate creativity are encouraging dullness.
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Everyone should check this out.
A second interesting result is that the 6 sub-Saharan African populations all scored below the European median. The median of the sub-Saharan African populations (47.4) is .29d below the European median. Thus, the sub-Saharan Africans suffer a double disadvantage of low creativity as well as low IQ, which does much to explain their low creative achievements. A third interesting result is that the median score of the 12 South Asian and North African countries (49.2) is only slightly below the European median of 50.!.The difference is .09d. Although their IQ (84) is lower than that of the Europeans, they have almost as high creativity and their creativity is substantially higher than that of the North East Asians and the sub-Saharan Africans. This may help to explain the success of these peoples in building the early civilizations along the valleys of the Tigris, Euphrates, Indus and Nile rivers.
A fourth interesting result is that the median score of the four Latin American countries (50.0) is virtually identical to the European median of 50.1. These are all mixed race countries with substantial Native American Indian populations (except in Brazil where, together with Mestizos, they are only around 15 per cent of the population). These results suggest that the creativity of the Native American Indians is about the same as that of Europeans. This may help to explain the success of these peoples in building the early Aztec, Maya and Inca civilizations of Central and South America, despite their relatively low IQ of 86.
The entire article is interesting.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7658/is_200804/ai_n32270499/pg_4/?tag=content;col1
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Some of these white people who think creativity has nothing to do with race aren’t really thinking things through. If creativity has nothing to do with race then we may as well replace all non-asians with smarter asians.
Let’s face it, whites and asians make a good team, we invent stuff and asians make it. But if we all interbreed we’ll have a bunch of coffee coloured dysfunctionals making unreliable cars with 50-year-old technology, while listening to crap music on the radio.
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Oldest string instuments out of Africa;
http://www.ehow.com/list_6954371_oldest-string-instruments.html
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Are whites as competent as they were during the pre-Civil Rights days?
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i’m the BadBoy that even azns or desis get moist thinking about bringing home to meet the folks
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” Although their IQ (84) is lower than that of the Europeans, they have almost as high creativity and their creativity is substantially higher than that of the North East Asians and the sub-Saharan Africans. ”
“Jugaad” is the term given to quick fix indian solutions.
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/jugaad/
and they are pretty nifty as well, sometimes even working better than the default.
That last guy is so cool lol
But still, I think the discussion is moot; once the chinese have slipstreamed to the front, they would still do much better compared to these better off creative countries.
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Namae:
a generation or two ago you’d see homemade machines like those on pretty much every family farm in the USA. They’re pretty unremarkable. I’m not exaggerating. A father of friend of mine built a totally insane automated baler/stacker/wagon that worked every bit as well as commercial equivalents. He considered it nothing special.
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Blacks are incredibly creative, but they generally aren’t that smart. The creation of the blues and jazz would not have emerged without whitey’s help–you know, those things he created called instruments and musical notation.
http://suckfist.blogspot.com/2010/06/black-music-brought-to-you-by-yours.html
For all their creativity, blacks would never have written the stuff down. While Mozart, Bach and Beethoven may not be “cool,” they were as smart as they were creative. We can reproduce their works note for note hundreds of years later since they came from a culture smart enough to develop musical notation.
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Creativity in America was also at it’s highest when people were the most free.
Being able to own what you create was/is a huge factor in creativity.
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Western civilization is a white thing. And will always be so.
Only Whites can be real westerners, hehe
An that inst racist. Also, only Chinese people can be real Chinese people.
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[…] Roissy […]
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The film “Social Network” should be compulsory viewing for all readers of this blog (or is too much reality depressing?). It is a celluloid form of the argument that civilization is created by Beta/Omega male sex drives.
The plot is that an Omega can become richer than Bill Gates and be an even bigger Omega at the end of it.
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Steve Jobs, #1 creative genius of our time in terms of lifestyle impact was the child of a single mother.
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LOLOL @ this discussion (and general theme of the blog).
The theme is the same over and over again. The idea that essentially, people can “claim” some accomplishment or some individual member of their race, and thus derive moral, social status etc benefits from it.
The claim is tantamount to theft. You achieved nothing, they did, thieves. You didn’t invent the theory of relativity, Einstein did. You didn’t invent calculus, Newton did. And so on.
Their achievements were not easily gained. They require (*gasp*) hard work, dedication, open mindedness and time. Einstein did not magically solve complex equations. They often took him months to years to work on.
Contrary to the claims of the racists who frequent (and author) this blog, an achievement such as theory of relativity cannot be “inherited”. It is the process of deliberate (and often painstaking) struggle for the individual involved.
The age-old concept of hard work? Anathema to users of this blog. They desire the unearned, making every claim to every accomplishment or achievement that some man (or woman) has struggled for all his life with their grubby paws.
Perhaps thats why users like Gorbachev fly off to distant, collectivist Asian locations in search of free love and special preferences for white men no? Sexual affirmative action lol.
How again is that different from a welfare recipient you right-wingers et al like to decry?
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[…] Affirmative Action, “Black-on-White Crime, Black Crime, Blacks Behaving Badly and “who’s the fairest of them all” type stuff? Well, the answer to that question, once one really gets down to it, is […]
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