A reader asks:
I know you don’t advocate marriage or spending money on an engagement ring. However, if I decide to buy a ring, what is the better practice – A) Buy the ring on my own, with no consulting the girl, her friends or her family. B) Bring her along in advance to try on rings. C) Ask her what she likes. D) Ask her friends or family what she likes.
I’m thinking option A. Asking for her input appears needy, and it could be a collossal shit test capitulation to dutifully produce a ring to her exact specifications. Bringing her along seems even worse because it will put more expensive rings in her field of vision, and who knows what subtle emasculating digs the salesperson will get in. Talking with her friends and family would almost surely get back to her, so in the end it may be just as bad as asking her directly.
There is some dignity in the attitude of “we’re getting engaged on my terms, I’m picking the ring, and she doesn’t need to tell me what she wants or know what I spend.” It shows confidence, and if she likes the ring she will appreciate it more than if I just follow her instructions. If she doesn’t like it she won’t tell me (at least as long as she stays attracted to me) and the mindset of her loins will still be better than if I had asked her what she wants. Maybe she’ll bitch to her friends that she’s the one to wear the ring and she should have had input, but the effect on her hindbrain is what I care about. Involving her makes me seem afraid that she won’t love me if I pick wrong. Doing it on my own seems like the way of a confident man. Am I correct in this thinking?
Answer: E. Don’t do it!
Ok, seriously, if you insist on going this route, the answer is…
E. Give her a (cost-free) heirloom ring.
Or if that isn’t an option…
Answer: A. Buy it on your own with no input from her or anyone else.
The reasons you gave are all valid. There is also something gauche and dispiriting about taking the recipient of your gift along for the gift-buying process. It is indeed emasculating… or, to pull a term from the feminist cuntionary, *objectifying*… to offer yourself up as a wide open wallet from which she may withdraw liberally to spend on herself. This is the foundation upon which you want to rest a modern, companionate marriage of love? Fuk dat noize.
No woman with any character at all is going to tell you the ring sucks (which, in womanese, translates as, “this ring is too small and inexpensive”). If she frowns and complains when you give her the ring…
RUN. And don’t look back.
You’ve just gotten all the evidence you need that she is not worth your monogamous commitment.
You shouldn’t be spending much on rings anyhow. After all, it is men, as the naturally promiscuous and freedom-loving sex, who give up more when they get married. By rights, the tradition should be that women propose to men with overpriced rocks as barter, as they are the ones winning out by getting betrothed.
You might also think about fooling her with a cubic zirconia. Why? One, CZ is hard to detect without equipment. The average normal chick won’t know the difference. Two, if she does go out of her way to disprove its authenticity, you will know it’s true love if she decides to stay with you.
The collapse of the diamond market can’t come soon enough. American men have had a bill of goods foisted on them by the diamond cartels and Cosmo.
Consider a lab created diamond as well. Chemically identical to mined diamonds, significantly cheaper, virtually impossible to differentiate, and best of all a big “fuck you” to DeBeers.
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The only difference between engagement rings is the diamond anyway so her input isn’t really needed. Buy the biggest/best diamond that you’re willing to buy (and that statement also works if the biggest is zero) and she can have it re-set in a fancy ring later if she wants.
The time you go ring shopping together is for actual wedding rings in a year or two but those are generally much cheaper anyway.
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Co Sign- Option E, run!!
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Take one of her rings to the store to have her size/measure
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Cuntionary.
And diamonds are worthless. No, they’re not: They’re useful. Don’t support the industry based on fraud and false demand.
Besides, artificial diamonds are better in almost every way. They’re better at, say, cutting steel, for example.
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Definitely pick it out yourself and surprise her, she’ll like that so much better.
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Pick it yourself. Consult nobody. Flirt with the females working in the jewelry store.
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There’s a solution that you never considered. Only marry someone who thinks the same way as you. My wife didn’t mind a cheap, but good quality ring. I spent slightly under a $1,000 for a less than 1 carat diamond ring that she selected. She spent slight over $500 for mine.
We both don’t wear our rings after the wedding. We are not defined by the rings.
BTW, there’s no resale value on diamond rings. There’s no demand for diamonds on the secondary market. It might be better to invest in gold rings if you care about selling it one day.
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yeah, go option A, you should get an idea of what looks good and what you want the ring to say about you, her, your relationship, etc.
If you’re going to propose, you should at least have a girl that’s dying to marry you, so the excitement of the proposal, not the ring is what creams her.
As for what is alpha, I’ve wondered about the whole asking for her dad’s consent. Whats up with that?
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Couple fun reads on diamonds:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/4575/
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html
Yup, not much intrinsic value. Buy a synthetic diamond made in USA, like in the Wired article.
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I never had a strong opinion on what an engagement ring should look like and I imagine that holds true for most women. The fact that you choose it while thinking of her and used your hard earned money to pay for it should be all that she needs to appreciate it.
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This was a major issue for me, and I made the mistake of choosing option (B), after the fact, so that the proposal would be a surprise. In order to have something to give to her, I bought a $50.00 gold ring that I bought at a jewelry mart. It was a cool ring, and it was 14K gold, and she still wears it constantly.
However, my wife (unbeknownst to me) had always wanted a big diamond ring. She did not tell me that at the time, because I had just started working in my career job, she knew I didn’t have much money, and she felt bad about even asking for one.
Problem was, the week after she accepted my proposal, her parents took her shopping to look at rings (they liked to meddle). Where was I? I was on one of my National Guard weekends and was gone for 3 days. Her Mom fell in love with a ring (about $2500.00, but completely overpriced ’cause it was Robbins Bros) and convinced my bride-to-be that this was the ring she should get.
My wife tells me this is the one she wants, and I got it for her…reluctantly. I hated it. I could have afforded more, and I thought it was a poor diamond. But my wife liked the setting, and was easily influenced back then by her parents.
18 months later, we were about to get married, and my wife realizes that she really doesn’t like the ring she has. So…long story short, I took her to a jewelry merchant in dtown LA and got her a new ring, which she adores and is more or less what I would have gotten her originally. The good thing is that since she has 2 rings, she wears the expensive one when we go to church or she gets dressed up, and she wears the cheap one at work (she’s a 2nd Grade teacher) so the nice one won’t be ruined.
Now, lest you think my wife is some sort of gold digger, I can tell you that she has never asked for anything else since (and we’ve been married almost 3 years). She raved about our first dinner date at Denny’s, and hooked up with me when I was unemployed and struggling. She has also not gained 1 pound since our wedding day, and at that time she was 5’10” and 150 pounds.
If I could do it over again, I would have bought her a diamond solitaire from the beginning. The key is to take the money you’ve set aside for the ring and spend it on the diamond. Most jewelry places will throw in the gold band for an extra $100. Later in life, you can always upgrade to a nicer setting for far cheaper than upgrading to a more expensive diamond.
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Skip the ring.
Don’t buy it.
Propose without it.
If she loves you, she’ll marry you without the ring.
If she objects, she wasn’t worth marrying.
If you must spend the money, dfo it on a trip with the two of you for whatever the ring would cost.
In fact reframe it that way. I was thinking of buying a ring, but instead we’re celebrating our engagement in . . . PARIS.
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I happen to be an exception to this rule. My wife knew some local jewelers, so by buying with her, I got about a 50% discount off of what I would have gotten on my own at a place like Jared. We also went through a lot of places and learned all sorts of fun terms. Big thing when buying, look at clarity as much as at size. A clear, sparkling gem is better than a large cloudy one. Take your time and go through some literature, and do not buy the first one you come across. Avoid anything trendy.
Look, here’s the thing. Yes, you want her to accept you without being greedy, but remember, the girl will be wearing this gem for the rest of her life (according to plan). You should not have to be lavish with the expense, but don’t be lousy, either.
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Don’t you dare buy her a ring unless you’re fully willing to tell her to GTFO if she gives you crao. A woman will do anything for a wedding with a man she loves, and she must never ever take you nor the wedding for granted. Make it clear that the marriage is OFF at any time you’re displeased with her, be it five years or five seconds from the vows.
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Also, propose to her when it is just you and her alone. Don’t do it in front of other people.
[Editor: Agreed. Proposing with an audience is tacky and try-hard. And it’s easier to maintain alpha frame — a critical frame to possess when proposing — when you don’t have to simultaneously appease a gawking crowd.]
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@askjoe
“As for what is alpha, I’ve wondered about the whole asking for her dad’s consent. Whats up with that?”
I believe the thinking is that women are property, owned by the male head of house. So, you are asking the father of the bride for his approval to transfer his valuable property to you.
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Oh, yeah. Don’t ever go to Jared, Robbins Bros, or any of the retail jewelry stores. Find the “jewelry district” of your nearest major city and buy from one of the small independent dealers. You’ll pay thousands less for a lot better jewelry.
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I’m in this situation myself. I’m doing a hybrid approach of option A: buying it myself, on my own, and not letting her dictate which ring exactly. We looked at rings online together, so she could show me a sense of what her expectations were. This was helpful.
Then I had to start learning about diamonds. Diamond purchasing is always a tradeoff on cost, so what I found out was that each woman has her own opinions on qualities in a diamond are most important to her. Size vs. sparkle is a great example of this. Or how about fluorescence vs. not. I dealt with this by asking her in general what sorts of tradeoffs she prefers in a diamond, but not letting her tell me what to get, approve any specific item, or know anything about what it actually cost me or how I went about obtaining it.
I continue testing her, letting out hints of my increasing readiness to make a life committment: talking about marriage, talking about children. Getting sterner about what I will and will not accept: for example, that I will be approving the final vows; that she must buy my ring; reasserting that I wear the pants in the relationship and that I will in the marriage as well. That I expect her to exercise throughout her life with me.
To me, talking about rings and upping the stakes about expectation of marriage and a happy life together is an excellent resource for alpha framing of LTR.
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Asking her father… Not unless he is paying out a large dowry. You run shit in your relationships, not her father.
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On asking her father/parents… what I plan to do is propose first to make sure there are no unforeseen surprises. Then after she says yes, ask for permission.
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I’ve been married (in the traditionally anti-masculine, Disney-esque fashion). This ended as expected; divorced.
I’ve learned my lesson.
I’m getting married again this Summer to a wonderful woman. A woman who has drive, passion, a decisive disposition, no baggage, a short list of suitors (I’m the seventh man she’s been intimate with), she’ll have her Masters degree before her Thirty-second birthday, and she values my position as masculine director of our relationship.
The ring I’VE chosen is a lab created diamond 3.75 carat princess cut, set beautifully in a high arch.
The cost? $98.00. This included free sizing. Less the cost of a dinner at IMAX and sushi.
I’ve had the women in my office give it a gander and, if my woman’s reaction is half as phenomenally received as the birds in our cubicle maze, I’ll have ass-to-mouth for the rest of our relationship.
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@ Country Lawyer
You beat me to it. I think the most alpha and self-respecting thing to do is to propose without a ring. It’s a great test also. If she loves you, not getting a ring shouldn’t be a problem at all. And for the wedding band, get a simple gold, silver, or platinum band.
The truth is I don’t know anything about engagement, but I admit that if a man proposed to me without getting on his knee and handing me a ring, I would respect him a lot more.
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I agree with @Country Lawyer. Don’t buy a ring.
My husband proposed without a ring and it was still an amazing engagement. We didn’t go get a ring until about a week later.
Better yet, no ring at all:
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/south/12003965294860/diamond-dreams-come-true-for-elderly-wayland-couple/
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There’s another option.
Don’t use a diamond ring at all when you propose. Get a ring box, put in a plastic jewelry ring or a ring pop in it. Propose with that, and tell her that you’ll design the ring together later. Then get her to pick out a lab diamond later.
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The women I have known, and their circle of friends, all have a very good idea of what the ideal engagement ring looks like. Know that among American women, the engagement ring is a display of status to other women. There are very few women, like our admirable Lara, who don’t give a rip about it, but most do.
Btw, the sparkle of a flawless white diamond trumps size.
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One word – Dowry. Insist on one. Call her Dad now. You might be surprised how much he can scrounge up to send her along her way…
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By the way, start thinking about how to defeat the coming nuptial shit tests about size, venue, and cost of the event. YOU set the budget and insist she stays within it. And whatever you do, don’t fail the “I’m not sure about taking your last name” test. No hyphens, either, baby, it’s my name or forget it.
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The dowry thing seems like Internet toughguy speak. The implication is that you refuse to marry their daughter if they don’t buy you off. If that bitch is only worth the cash they cough up to get her off their hands, that doesn’t make you look very alpha.
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A thought on asking the Dad’s permission. If the dad is alpha, then ask. It shows the girl you have to balls to ask her dad for his little girls hand. If the dad is slightly scary it will be tingle inducing and you will have the added bonus of earning respect from both of them.
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Also, if she is at all traditional and you don’t ask the alpha dad – instant beta move. She will think your scared. Hard one to recover from. She won’t forget it.
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Another thing: consider a “clarity enhanced” / “natural enhanced” diamond. They have horrible resale value, and the enhancements can be detected under a gemologist’s scope, but who the fuck cares??
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I told my fiance that I wasn’t going to spend the down payment on a house for a useless ring.
After that she suddenly really wanted an heirloom ring that cost me a total of $100 to get cleaned and resized. (Turns out to be a subtle, nice piece, not a gaudy make-your-cunt-friends-jealous fest.)
Don’t know if I passed a shit test or not, but I feel like everyone is better for it.
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Why not do it like in the ancient Egypt? Skip all the insanity, break a jar together and you are married.
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Meh. I’m relieved to not be in Egypt, ancient or otherwise. Though I do appreciate the non-materialist statement.
Personally, I do want her to be able to show off something nice to her friends and family. Buying a clarity-enhanced diamond made it possible.
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“You might also think about fooling her with a cubic zirconia. Why? One, CZ is hard to detect without equipment. The average normal chick won’t know the difference.”
Damn it. I knew there was a downside to dating a chemistry grad student working in a spectroscopy lab.
(Not a joke…)
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Another plug for Russians is that this was never much of a tradition in the first place.
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Off-topic.
I am applying for a highly competitive job, but they are , i think, starting to play games, keeping me in a “pool” of possible candidates.
Should i show enthusiasm to get the job or an aloof disposition?
In general i think i have given a good impression, but it is really pissing me off all the suspense, although it is reasonable given the competitive nature of the position (analog to a Hot Girl), what do you players out there think?
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@Flahute
“the engagement ring is a display of status to other women”
And so is an alpha husband.
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When my wife and I got engaged, I didn’t get her a ring at all, as we were far beyond the dewy-eyed preferred marriage age (even though it was first time for both of us). She was pretty upset about that, so I told her I would get her something really nice for our 10-year anniversary, adding only half facetiously, “if we last that long”.
Well, it’s been almost 14 years now and still going strong. I gave my mom $2500 for HER ring for my wife’s gift, and now everyone is happy, including my mom, who really needed the money.
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Interesting. When i got married I gave an heirloom for the reason that I didn’t want to spend any money so gave my late mother’s ring.
My ex-wife saw that as more romantic.
When we got divorced she wanted to give it back and i said keep it.
By contrast, she took me shopping to buy a wedding ring I liked.
That was her idea.
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When I heard that Duchess Kate removed “obey” from her wedding vows, I realized that I’ll be wanting traditional King James vows with that word dug in strong, like an Alabama tick.
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If you have decided to go down this path – do some research, set a budget, and give her a gift that you like. Do ask some other women and the jewelers – they can give you some feedback. Having good taste, and
Make it personal and put your feelings into it, and the lady will appreciate. If she is the sort of woman who cares more about status than your feelings, she is not the right woman to get engaged to anyway. On the other hand, you do want your woman to be respected by her peers, so do give her something that she can be proud of.
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The engagement ring was originally a conditional gift exchanged for a woman’s virtue. If the woman’s virtue is not intact (or was not intact when you met her), then why buy a ring? The ring is a throwback to a time when the woman might actually be offering something in return…
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In all societies except ours, it was the bride’s family who provided the dowry. In many countries this is still true.
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@Insight: “the thinking is that women are property, owned by the male head of house. So, you are asking the father of the bride for his approval to transfer his valuable property to you.”
I so despise the feminist narrative that constantly whines that women are oppressed, downtrodden, objectified victims. poor, poor women – people thought of them as property.
That simply isn’t true. A horse is property, and you don’t ask permission to buy a horse. You just buy it.
No, a father’s blessing was a sign of respect for the woman. Men know other men, and this was a man that wanted the best for his daughter and so would judge you and test you to make sure you were worthy. Obtaining the approval of the father was a tradition that resulted in a lot more happy and successful marriages than we have today.
When I got married, I bought the engagement ring without consulting her. In fact, we hadn’t even talked about marriage – we did that after getting engaged, and if we had had major differences I could have just called it off. Today I feel that diamonds are a ripoff and possibly immoral, but I understand the desire that women have to show off a ring. That’s slowly changing.
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SEVENTH guy she has been interested in?
She is getting a Master’s degree?
Don’t buy her a ring, you will regret it once you break up/divorce…
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Sorry, should say ‘intimate with’, not ‘interested in’.
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If you’re in a big city, go to a diamond wholesaler if they’ll deal with you. You can also get a big discount on a diamond with flaws that can be easily hidden under mounting points. Read up a bit on it and you can save a ton. Or buy sapphire or similar stone that’s actually rarer than diamonds but cost less because there’s no cartel. Unless you’re 100% sure she’ll say yes, don’t buy it up front.
Protip: don’t propose to her in a high stress environment. Some girls are quite fearful of the future, add in an audience or even a stressful day, and you might get a “no” regardless of whether you’re the one in her mind.
But whoever said the woman should buy the man a ring is spot on, except there’s no dollar value you can put on sexual freedom.
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If she doesn’t know the details of your finances, just don’t get her a ring and point to the mess Barry has made of the economy.
It really is tough out there…she should understand that if she loves you.
If she DOES know the details of your finances and you certainly COULD afford an expensive ring you are screwed. *You* are the one with everything to lose by getting married. Why the FUCK should *you* be plowing 6 mos of salary into a stupid ego piece she can show off to her yentas?
Don’t get married, bro. Seriously. So many married men are unhappy and/or bored. And some are downright miserable. I have never known a married man who has told me in private “Dude, I just LOVE being married…best decision I ever made!”
Some men love their wives. Few like being married.
Oh, and a solid half of marriages end in divorce. So the odds are likely that marriage is a disastrous decision for any man to make.
Don’t do it.
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“No, a father’s blessing was a sign of respect for the woman. Men know other men, and this was a man that wanted the best for his daughter and so would judge you and test you to make sure you were worthy. Obtaining the approval of the father was a tradition that resulted in a lot more happy and successful marriages than we have today.”
I’m not a huge fan of marriage – I DO believe in true love – it’s biased against men.
That said…
The above advice. Whatever. You do what my brother did, he’s a marriage-minded but no chump…
…he goes to her father. “Hey, I’m going to marry your daughter. What do you think about that, Mike?”
He said her father was really impressed at his conviction and resolve.
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ask your grandma for hers, or somehow talk to her grandma. you pay nothing, win sentimental points, get out of being called a cheap bastard etc.
i see women who wear an heirloom ring grafted to a wedding ring. bad form.
according to wiki women before the 20th century just as often received a thimble as a betrothal present as a ring. today 80% of American women receive diamond rings as betrothal presents.
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Sorry. Completely off topic, but I thought you guys might enjoy tearing apart this video. I know I did (there’s lots of material).
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“Should i show enthusiasm to get the job or an aloof disposition?
In general i think i have given a good impression, but it is really pissing me off all the suspense, although it is reasonable given the competitive nature of the position”
im in the same boat tryin to get a job. my strategy is to
1. research the company a little then make it completely obvious how i benefit the company without overplaying myself and
2. spell out that the interviewer’s option for employment is one of many good ones for you, but you’d just as soon take it as leave it if it doesn’t meet YOUR standards.
qualify your employer, play one off the other. when i lived in iowa i got a job as a waiter, but this was 2ish years ago and there were jobs everywhere. i applied to like 10 places, 5 hit me back, i went to 5 interviews, 3 hired me, i said i had to wait for other interviews to know which was most competitive. i went back to one restaurant, acted a little coy and then finally my interviewer broke down and said that he wanted me, my resume was impressive and i could be assistant manager w/ pay above starting if i came on board.
hopefully that would work for you. if you’re already in the middle of the interview process that might be a little tricker. is the job market good where you live?
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A, dammit.
The whole X months salary thing is total bullshit. No way I’m going to put a new car’s worth on a 23 year-old’s finger. I set a reasonable budget, picked a ring by myself (I had a buddy come along for moral support), opted to choose brilliance/clarity over size, didn’t ask anyone permission, and proposed face-to-face in my apartment. Most importantly, I knew she’d say yes even if I gave her a ring out of a box of Cracker Jack. That is why she got a decent one.
Get a ring that isn’t Bridezilla-level in hugeness. The marriage is more important the wedding, and so wasting a shitload of money on a rock.
I will cosign all the advice of getting the hell out of anything is conditional on the type of ring. If she’s not totally thrilled with the proposal itself, then it’s done.
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@Simple Man “He said her father was really impressed at his conviction and resolve.”
Yep, I’m speaking from experience here. I had her dad in my corner from day one, and her mom fucking loved me – and let me just say that shit is priceless.
Her dad says to me, “well it’s not my (his) decision” because he’s been whipped by our modern culture. I say to him, “It’s also not entirely her decision – it’s partly my decision too, and I want to base my decision on the wisdom of your family. If you don’t think this is a good match, speak up” at that point, he assumed the role of father and started grilling me about the future. I passed his test, he said, “good luck” and when she and her mom got back (they had been out shopping) she and I went to the place where I asked her to marry me.
When we got back, mom had been told of course and she was beaming. And because of that, she thought I was a great catch for her daughter. I’ll never forget having a fight with my wife and then later she says to me, “my mom says I was wrong and I should apologize” – I mean seriously, how many guys can say that a girl’s mom took his side against her in an argument? Doing things in a traditional way is **priceless**
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E: give her a bag of skittles
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Getting engaged is ridiculous. if you really want to marry her, just start planning it and get married, why get engaged? I hate those couples that get engaged and every time they have a fight they would throw the engagement ring at each other. Why not give her the whole set at the wedding?
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I agree, what. Long engagements are annoying. I figure I should at least give her family some time to plan the wedding and arrange their finances to pay for it, though? Say a 6-month engagement?
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Chrysalis,
Right. Is not about the ring. If she loves you, she wants YOU! sooo just remember to show up. hehe!! 🙂
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Can you imagine this:
” I hate you!!! blahhhhh!!” ( throws the ring at your face, clunk!). Later you make up kiss kiss. Three months later, you fight again …”I hate you!!!” ( throws the ring at you feet) you get the idea? How stupid. I’d rather fight , make up without diminishing the importance of what the engagement ring originally symbolizes. Just get married and forget all the showoffiness of the engagement ring! You guys want to be love for you and not what you can give.
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I’m surprised no one mentioned the terrible concept of the ‘starter ring’ kind of like a starter house where you upgrade the ring at a later point to a larger one…. I think that as a guy (predicated on the fact that you want to get married), you shouldn’t get married unless you are confident she wants to get married more than you do…. I never understood dudes who proposed even when ‘un-provoked’ (subtle provocation that is, not the ultimatum)
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I wouldn’t marry at all, but she’s a smart, sweet, tall, and beautiful girl who immigrated to the US from Eastern Europe. She has the conservative morals and the secret passions that boil underneath. She wants, needs me to wear the pants, is a solid cook. She also out-earns me, significantly, and is seven years younger.
I could keep on dating and having fun but at some point it has to end. I’m not going to do better, it would just be a tradeoff for other combinations of strength/weakness. And I must have children; I have the good stuff! It’s not right to just let the stupid people breed like rabbits.
So, I’m moving forward. Fortunately I was reading these boards long before I even met her; thank God for that!
I’d buy a Roissy book containing all the posts on this blog, but only if the comments are included.
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In retort to RJ:
I should specify she’s 31. Owns her house, owns her car, has no drama, she’s self sufficient, she loves anal, and she swallows.
All of the disposable bitches I’ve gone through have taught me to appreciate a woman I can devote my time and energy to.
She’s one of them.
If I thought for a second divorce would be an eventuality I wouldn’t bother wanting to marry her.
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I didn’t read any comments, bc…I just don’t care…but whatever happened to taking her best friend with you…buying a ring she likes then banging the shit out of her once you two get home?
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Not to disillusion the young, but . . .
Good luck with marriage.
The divorce rate is only the tip of the iceberg of marriage misery.
They all get old and ugly.
The older you get, the less you need or want a woman around full time, especially an aging one.
Have you even looked into the laws which govern divorce in your state, or in other states you might wish to live in?
Have you realized that you gain not a single right or privilege when you marry?
You want to keep her so you’ll marry her? Haven’t you learned anything from the blog?
Women are comely, but essentially amoral and merciless. And, most damning, boring.
Marriage gives these creatures leverage on you.
Marriage is a classic example of hormone driven behavior. Think of “lower” animals and how their behavior is driven by hormones. Is this what you want for yourself?
Marry in haste, repent at your leisure.
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“I am applying for a highly competitive job, but they are , i think, starting to play games, keeping me in a “pool” of possible candidates.
Should i show enthusiasm to get the job or an aloof disposition?”
I’m a corporate recruiter. Don’t play aloof games with this. An employer is not a hamster driven woman. Make it clear you are excited to go to work for them and fully expect to make an impact.
Game is not for interviewing.
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Good advice, Gramps.
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The Count of Monte Cristo settled for a piece of string.
Give her a piece of string and tell her so long as it is on her finger, she will experience a life that is more valuable than a vault full of diamonds.
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Gramps, I love your posts and am not pleased to read what you’ve written here. Are you really a grandfather? Or do you just mean old?
What if we men want kids? Darwin laughs at us if we can’t somehow adapt to this disgusting feminist world. I understand that it’s technically possible to go the IVF/surrogacy route but there are other medical risks, high short-term costs, and legal challenges, not to mention an enormous logistical problem. I don’t want to disappear from the gene pool just because with the Internet I can find out just how much better everyone else’s life is by comparison…
It seems you are saying that any decision to marry at all is, by default, in haste. Yet if we stay with any woman 10 years beforehand, or even 5, she is nearing The Wall unless she is in her early 20s when we meet. Half my age plus seven years puts me outside that window, and besides, I don’t want her sleeping around with young studs all the time because I’m too old. I can get that from porn.
I can’t find all your posts on here so I can’t review them for what you’ve said before. Since this thread is about getting engaged, would you please break it down for us a little further?
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100% right GRAMPS.
There is absolutely no reason to get married in this day and age. Sure, you love spending time with her and she’s an awesome girl but things change big time when you get married. Yes, you’re thinking “not us, we’re different! we know what true love is…”. You’re full of shit. I thought that too and I was wrong. My dad told me at the church right beforehand,”son, I’ll get the car if you don’t want to do this”.
Also, marriage is so FN expensive! I was great about saving before marriage and now I’m always wondering where the hell our money has gone. I would say wait on the engagement thing man. Don’t get married because she’s hinting or telling you to do it, because your stupid friends have given up on life and have decided to get married or because you feel “its the right thing to do” (which I have heard is the #1 reason guys do it).
And the sex goes to shit very soon. Studies show the quality AND quantity go down at the 6 month mark and keep going down. Just so you know.
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There are these really cool machines in some old timey corner stores, you put in a quater and out comes a ring.
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Always good to read one of the smartest men and greatest writers ever to live:
http://www.samueljohnson.com/marriage.html
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Just Say No!
Give her Skittles… she’ll value them more, too.
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@Annette
What’s the name of the iPhone app the girls are talking about in that video?
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re: Chrysalis
This post starts to ramble. This is a feature, not a bug. I hope this gets the point across. I didn’t have time to write a short post.
It is true there are a lot of divorces. There are also a lot of unhappy marriages which never get to divorce for one reason or another.
Marriage is very expensive, divorce more so, which is why I am still married. My wife decided recently NOT to divorce me when she realized the financial result would not favor her. Ibid for me. Blessed be the ties that bind.
I have been married for 35 years.
I have three kids and one grandchild. They are the ONLY thing that has made marriage even remotely worthwhile. I was never happier than when I had a young family.
Children, if they are good, healthy, and intelligent, provide a continuing enjoyment all of your life, and hopefully, familial support in your old age. I highly recommend having them.
Experienced grandparents say that grandchildren are the best, since you have all the fun and leave the work to the parents.
Since children are the main, lasting benefit of marriage, I would suggest having children with a woman (women, even better) who will make a good mother, healthy, happy, and intelligent. Well adjusted and accepting of her biological role as a woman. Avoid fat women. Obesity not only leads to accelerated physical decline, it is a marker of complete lack of self-discipline. Avoid self-absorbed women. Don’t marry the girl if you wouldn’t marry the mother is good advice. Don’t be a tool.
Do not marry because it is the right thing to do. It is usually the wrong thing to do, in that sort of situation.
I would suggest gaming her so she will stick with you and overlook or ignore your occasional dalliances. This does take some effort. Develop the attitude of an alpha towards women. As you age and maintain your self physically, socially, and financially, you will become an alpha if you aren’t already. Most men just decay over time. Marriage destroys them and turns them into worker drones.
You really don’t have to get married to have children these days. And, getting married in no way obligates your wife to have (your) children. This is a major reason not to get married. Being married give you no leverage.
True story: About 25 years ago, a friend was divorced by her husband when she was pregnant with their third child. Everybody dumped on the bad husband. Well, subsequent events suggest strongly that the third child was a cuckold. The man went on to have two long term live in girl friends, and had two additional children with one of them. (His ex-wife had a boyfriend or two but never a live in [good for her] and never got remarried.) He wound up with four good children, beating me out by one, (not counting the cuckold as his). The wife had the typical good looks and outgoing, fun personality of a girl who played around with alphas, then settled down with a beta provider as she approached the wall. She was frank about that. She then cheated on him and tried to give him a bastard child. We are talking upper middle class here. Years later, being a long time family friend, she tried hard to set up her daughter with our son, who is just about the last word in a beta provider himself, (I take the blame for that.) as they both approached about 30 years of age. Her daughter was pretty and fun, too, and had traveled a lot in Europe getting her education. My son was way too smart for that game. The daughter went right back to her “bad boy” boy friend when my son announced his engagement to someone else.
Well, I could go on. Bottom line. Most women are not worth marrying. Most marriages are disappointing. Sure, you may be the exception, but, read the fine print and don’t assume you are the exception.
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@Gramps: “Marriage is a classic example of hormone driven behavior. Think of “lower” animals and how their behavior is driven by hormones. Is this what you want for yourself?”
I wouldn’t say hormones. I would say instinct. And then I would point out that in fact, sex is the classic example of an instinctive behavior.
I could make plenty of arguments about how sex isn’t rational – it isn’t in your best interest as a man. When you have sex, I would say, you risk locking yourself down. You risk crossing paths with a psychopathic woman who will claim you raped her and, with no more evidence than her word, will ruin your life. You risk disease. You waste time (on seduction as well as the act itself) that could be spent bettering yourself or pursuing activities that provide long term fulfillment.
I could write a whole treatise on how sex is just irrational given the twisted nature of modern women.
But everyone here already knows all that. And we do it anyway because we recognize that sometimes following your instincts makes you happy. Evolution has provided a very deep, indescribable contentment for those who follow instincts.
So, instead of eschewing the risky behavior altogether out of fear of the risk and denial of the happiness the behavior brings, what this blog tells us is that you can learn to reduce the risk and change the dynamic of the system.
I would argue that the same thing applies to marriage. I would agree that it’s an instinctive behavior that carries huge risk. But I would point out that it can also make you very happy. And I would suggest that changing your own behavior (in the same way that one changes behavior with game) could possibly reduce the risk enough to make the system suddenly rational.
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A Question for the reader:
Why do you want to marry her? Can you state several specific reasons? Have you thought about this carefully?
I say C. I don’t want to buy her a ring that is anything similar to the ring some chump bought for her at 21. She will probably tell you she doesn’t like ____ type of ring if she has a situation like that in her past.
If she has a very specific ring in mind, I would RUN, or if she demands a huge diamond, etc.
You want to hear very general preferences, without any pushiness, followed by a statement that she’ll love whatever you’d like to buy her, including a classic band with no diamond. If she’s indeed the type of girl who is fine with that, then you can seriously consider getting her a diamond.
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To the reader: General consensus here (London) is ‘one month of the man’s salary’ so I advise set a budget along those lines and buy a ring that closest resembles the ring you’d think she’d most like. I mean, you want to marry her, so you must know her taste. If not, a classic brilliant cut can’t really go wrong.
I mean, you can assert yourself and be a stingy miser like some suggest, but if you want to marry her, I assume you love her and want her to be happy so what’s the point in giving her something she won’t like just to play the penis card? It’s in her finger, not yours, so buy her a ring you know she’ll like and she’ll be morely likely to flaunt it around and show everyone she’s ‘yours’ anyway.
Good luck!
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What about just getting it at a pawn shop and getting it cleaned? She’ll never know. You can get a box at a jewlery store if they don’t have one.
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Chrysalis,
I am going to come at you from the opposite side of Gramps. Today is the first time I have posted here and you have no clue who I am. Completely understandable if you ignore every word. But, here it is, just in case you are interested.
I have been married 11 years. My husband is (if you are familiar with Athol Kay) the perfect blend of alpha and beta. That info will help up front. When we first got married I did the normal wife thing. Lost interest in sex and let myself go (by about 30 lbs.) I didn’t know that this would effect our marriage. Call BS if you want, but it’s true. We are taught from a young age that a man should love us for who we are. My husband never minded the weight thing but the sex thing he did. Again, I didn’t know that not giving him sex would make him harbor resentment and make him feel rejected. Until he told me. This changed everything.
Long story short, 11 years of fantastic marriage, I am submissive and it is where I have always wanted to be. It was clear from day 1 this is where we both wanted me. I stay home, homeschool the kids, am in better shape than in high school (I was very athletic) and we go at it like rabbits. We are closer now than when we got married.
Is it easy? No. We both do everything we can to work at it. He works his ass off at work and I work mine off at home. When I can’t get it done (Sick, sick kids, etc.) He helps. Other than that our jobs are separate. This was also clear from day one.
If you let her know what you expect (and if she is submissive, as you said) things could really be great. And if you are truly the alpha and thats what she wants, telling her all of this up front will increase your value in her eyes. It did mine.
But, be sure up front. And make sure she is, too. My marriage is not typical from what I have seen. But, it is wonderful.
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If Equality is so good, then why doesn’t the woman spend her (frequently larger) salary on a Ring for her man? – or is Equality only a one-way street?
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My two cents:
I got my fiancee a Moissanite ring. I was honest with her and said that I thought diamonds were bullshit and morally dubious; the important thing about the ring is that it look pretty. The stone is physically quite big and very clear. She loves to show it off to people we meet and not tell them it’s not a diamond. 😛
Also, Moissanite glows bright green when you heat it strongly; which is pretty cool.
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I am with the writer on the matter: do it on your own – you don’t need anyone’s input about what you will purchase. You are the one with the wallet, to hell with her friends, family and even her own opinion on a piece of jewelry.
An heirloom is ok. As long as its not too precious or sentimental. If you have a an aunt or mom with plenty of junk jewelry, shine something up, have a nice story and smile upon presenting it fully expecting you’ll never see it again.
The ring is a symbol, its worth or its ability to enslave you into debt is always an issue. Any ring more than a few grand will require insurance. (I think, its been years since I was a sales girl). Women lose rings all the time. Get the picture? A expensive ring is a drama waiting to happen.
Look up past CH piece about the girl in the picture with her newly ring’ed up hand while the boyfriend is lost, overshadowed. You’ll find that women have the ability to turn into ring-zilla’s.
Also, in this economy I’d advise against tying yourself down to any ring or any debt. Try a simple pawn shop, you can find a nice silver, platinum or even gold band for a very affordable price despite the prices for gold and silver. CZ is a fine option as well. What about a simple tennis bracelet or some ear rings, you can pass that off as well for a chick gift.
Lastly, running is a darn good option. Doing nothing, meaning, buying nothing is still reasonable. Cite the how economy is not doing well.
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I would advise against getting married in most cases. However, in the case where a lesser alpha or greater beta has got his life together and wants to be a father, to be the head of a traditional family, and thinks he has found a woman worthy of him, then I wish him luck. But I will offer one piece of advice. Reader, do not, absolutely do not, marry this women until you have established authority over her. In Roissy’s terms, you must have hand and keep it. Without it, your marriage will be a power struggle which you are likely to lose.
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Fuck diamonds. Wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot pole. Sapphire or something is much more original.
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Everything you need to know about the semi-precious stone called diamond:
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gemstonetrends.html
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If you marry then only:
1)If you want children
2)If your potential wife asks you first
3)If she agrees with no pressure to skip the ring bullshit. No engagement rings an you both pay separately for wedding rings.
4)If she agrees with no pressure to have a simple and cheap ceremony, financed by her not less than you.
5)If she has a belief system that sees marriage vows as something sacred and binding for life.
6)She adores you and finds happiness in serving for your pleasure.
7)You haven’t spent more money on her as she has on you.
If any one of these is missing than YOU WILL REGRET IT LATER!
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Chrysalis,
Marriage is fine if you have the right woman. The way to find out, my friend, is by putting together a wedding over a months-long period. Actually, I think six months is the minimum time an engagement should last. Nine months to a year is more ideal. This is a stressful event, but that’s what you want. If your wife-to-be is a narcissistic wretch, it WILL come out then. So, yes, the church, the reception, the dress, and all the rest is a fantastic expenditure, but it’s not necessarily a waste.
I went through an 11-month engagement and a fairly good-sized wedding. We had a few fights, but they wound up being reconciled to everyone’s satisfaction. I learned to give up some stuff I didn’t want, and she also had to yield on some things. A minor thing: chair covers, these stupid things run $5 a pop, and they only make the chairs difficult to use. She wanted them, I made the case that the money would be better spent elsewhere. I won that won. I also saved us the cost of a videographer-photos work just fine. I’ve never regretted not having a video of our wedding. She won on a number of other points, but she had to justify them.
My point is, take the wedding ceremony seriously. It’s a test drive. I’m sure you’ve seen that Bridezilla show. You can see those “models” should be recalled. You should look at this whole silly ritual as a means of screening out an undesirable who might otherwise be chained to you for the rest of your life. Or it might well confirm that you made the right choice.
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Ubermind,
Mostly on point, but #2 (“she asks you first”) is a big no-no. She absolutely should not initiate any of the big steps, nor any of the discussion that leads to the big steps. No way, no how; that’s an unhealthy degree of control for a woman to be exercising.
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A wedding ring was designed to be a dowry, in case you got a divorce, it’s value was enough that she could sell it and exist off those funds long enough to get back to her parents or on her own feet. Since in today’s society, she is going to get half of all you own, do not spend much on the ring.
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I just don’t understand how a regular reader of this blog could be so naive as to desire marriage.
The divorce rate is far higher than 50%. The “half end in divorce” stat is only measuring the first ten years of marriage. Beyond that the number continues going up. The percentage of couples still married after 20 years is minuscule.
Every single guy tries to claim that this one is different, that he is the one guy who is smart enough to choose wisely, that none of the bad stuff will ever happen to him because he’s an exception. This is nothing but inflated ego, along with confirmation bias.
Of course she is pretty now. Of course she “loves” anal now. Of course she cooks and acts demure, and earns good money. Do you honestly expect ANY of those attributes to remain after 1 or 2 years of marriage? The bait and switch is the most common scam there is man! Two years down the road you will be a worker slave while she quits her job and forms a new career of spending your money and learning about American feminism.
I just shake my head and say you’re delusional, and out of all the chumps out there, you should know better as a reader of this blog. But, to each his own. I wish you good enough luck to be one of the few that doesn’t get screwed.
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Why don’t women buy engagement rings for men?
Where the hell are the feminists now?
Bunch of cherry-picking hypocrites.
All the sweet; none of the sour.
“Women can do anything a man can do – until it gets a little bit difficult.”
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If you are planning on proposing, always buy the ring yourself. NEVER offer to allow a woman to choose her own wedding ring, NEVER. There is no greater Beta move in the history of Beta-ness than a guy accompanying his fiancé to the jewelry store where she gleefully sifts through tens of thousands of dollars worth of jewelry. Rest assured, that ring isn’t a symbol of your undying love and devotion, it’s about showing it off to her girlfriends.
In fact the best practice is to buy the ring, keep it in the little box, and then propose. If she accepts, open the box, if not NEVER show her the ring.
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Your biggest warning is in Jasmine’s endorsement. By her own admission, she had “no idea” that becoming obese and stopping sex would bother her husband at all! Wow, talk about disconnected from reality! And the only way he could regain hand is to work his ass off to game his own wife. Personally if I am going to work at running constant game, I expect it to pay in hot sex with interchangeable twenty-somethings.
Also note that she is a stay at home wife and claims that it’s really hard work.
Not saying she’s an awful person, but she’s your typical American wife – totally clueless about what men want and need. Totally clueless about what an equal contribution in a marriage would look like.
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I shit you not. My wife pawned the engagement ring she bought for herself so we could get cash for mexican food and beer. This was two decades ago. We are still together.
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Begby,
Obese? No. At my size putting on 30 lbs was not obese. Uncalled for? Yes. That is why I changed and am now in good shape. Was I disconnected from reality? Absolutely. It’s why I changed. It is why I told Chrysalis to be upfront from day one. So he won’t have to go through that. Women born from 1970 on grew up with feminism. 99% are delusional because it was all we were taught. Is it right? Absolutely not. Doesn’t mean that it is not reality today. Better for it to be pointed out now than to learn the hard way.
Also note that I don’t just stay at home. I homeschool. Not just keep house. Yes, that is really hard work. Cleaning house? Cooking? Hell no. Cake walk. Put it all together? Not easy.
Typical American wife? Ummm, no. But go ahead and think it. Don’t blame you. Majority are. Totally clueless about equal contribution? Haha! My husband works. Makes all the money. Thank God. Guess what? I run nearly everything else. What else would you have me do? Am I complaining? NOT. IN. THE. LEAST. I would have it no other way.
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F: An empty skittles wrapper folded into the shape of a ring.
“Hey, that took me almost 10 minutes to do.”
Marriage – the only life sentence where you get time off for bad behavior.
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When I got my Christmas bonus, I immediately bought the engagement ring for the cunt that’s now my ex-wife. I didn’t tell anyone. I jumped on the internet, picked the one she’d probably like and bought it for $250. I used the other half of my bonus to get a tattoo and a video game or something.
Recently, two of my friends got engaged to each other. The guy put out over $2000 at 26% interest for the ring, the first 6 months being 0%. He’s scrambling for a lower rate before those 6 months expire. I told him while we were drinking one night of how I did it. He defended his decision. I just smiled and thanked the man upstairs that at small points during my long relationship with that girl I pulled out the alpha. Saved me A LOT of money.
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Nine out of ten diamond salesmen agree that this is the most beta Roissy post ever. It certainly brought all the beta experts out of the woodwork.
All of you chumps buying diamond engagement rings (never mind the wisdom of whether to get married at all today) are nothing but suckers. DeBeers is picking your hard-earned cash out of your pockets, and laughing all the way to the bank while flipping you the bird. Whether the diamonds are mined, lab-created, or CZ doesn’t matter; you’re playing into their manipulation of conspicuous consumerist culture and the inflation of feminine ego.
Sure, put some chick up on a pedestal, buy her multiple rings and mortgage your balls to give her a fairytale wedding. It’s all about her, and of course your special snowflake fiancée is the exception to the rule that older and wiser men keep warning you about. You beta dummies.
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@eric
@ Ubermind
8) She’s from money.
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“If it was me, I’da sprung for the ring… capiche?”
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I’d take three months salary and buy some gold coins, put them in a coffee can and bury it out back. After the divorce that may be the only thing the lawyers don’t find.
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Well, good for you Jasmine… my wife’s story is the same as yours… except she waited 20 years to not lose the weight and not reinstate the hot sex…
Sigh.
Luckily the old flame from my Army and college days who decided to look me up a few years back hasn’t changed a bit. 😉
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I NEVER thought buying diamonds (for only the most deserving of girls, mind you) was any problem for me, as long as the girls truly deserved it.
The day I can’t out-alpha/amog a neutered sales clerk is the day I turn in my cock.
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@ Bang Brussels:
Tbh, I use a blackberry and have no idea. All I’m thinking is, that video should seriously make some guys question who they’re planning on getting hitched with.
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How cheap are the new lab-created diamonds? Can you get a large diamond for a few hundred dollars?
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Begby,
“The divorce rate is far higher than 50%. The “half end in divorce” stat is only measuring the first ten years of marriage. Beyond that the number continues going up. The percentage of couples still married after 20 years is minuscule.”
Not true: The US rate of survival for marriages at the 10 year point is for white non-hispanic is 64% and for white hispanic it’s 68%. Source is the US Government CDC.
Also, for marriages commenced at 26 years or older, 76% of marriages survived the first ten years. 78% of marriages where couple had college degrees survived the first 10 years.
I mean the rates are still not terrific, but it’s a lot better than what you say.
Risk factors that destroy marriages include include (surprise surprise) having children prior to marriage; mixed-race marriage; childless marriages; coming from broken homes (only 48% of such marriages survived the ten year point.
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From the statistics, it appears that one sure way to f**k up a marriage is to cohabitate in advance. There’s nearly a 20% greater failure rate in marriages where there was cohabitation.
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RedEmperor,
Do you have a link to those numbers?
To the larger issue: if you don’t want kids, then, yes, don’t get married. You might want to get a vasectomy as well to avoid future custodial issues.
If you want kids, then, folks, the best way to do it–proven time and again–is to marry the mother. Is there more risk these days of divorce and its bad consequences? Yeah. But you have to either play the hand that’s dealt you or fold. Those are your choices. If want to fold, see the previous paragraph.
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Gramps’ posts are very well written, but I’d draw a different conclusion: Don’t marry the wrong woman.
If she drinks and curses and hangs around bars/clubs with her even looser friends;
if she has baggage or doesn’t obey you;
if she doesn’t cook for you;
if she flirts with other men; if she travels a lot;
if she works in a hard-charging job;
if you haven’t deflowered her;
if she doesn’t treat you like a king and and if she doesn’t make you the centre of her world…
Then ditch her. Otherwise, tell the state to hold the KY because you’re going to be subjected to the most painful assault of your life in the divorce court.
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Polichinello,
I don’t have the link on me – have a paper copy of the report (for my job). Hate reading .PDF docs.
Publication was:
Marriage and Cohabitation in the United States: A Statistical Portrait.
It was in the 2010 Vital and Health Statistics publication series by the Department of Health Center for Disease Control
Anyway, should be available on the CDC website.
http://www.CDC.Gov
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Get a chick to buy a diamond ring for you.
Or lecture her on how retarded it is to support such a phoney industry.
She doesn’t want to be a phoney, does she?
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.
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RedEmperor: I’m sure you’re right about those stats, but it’s hard to draw straight conclusions from all the divorce studies that have been done. Certain factors have extreme effects on the percentage of marriages that survive. For instance, if the woman has had 5 or more sexual partners going into marriage, she only has a 30% chance of lasting for ten years.
Churchgoing, non-college educated, family oriented women obviously have much higher success rates if you catch them early, I will concede that.
If you look at the average real-world Western women that typical guys have to choose from on a college campus, many of them have all these factors in common:
from a broken home
more than 7 sexual partners
lost virginity by age 16
previously had heart broken by alpha first love
cohabited before marriage
drinks and dabbles in drug use
is not religious
has (or is earning) a college degree
does not want children until thirties
has (or wants) a job paying higher than median salary
When your woman has more than two or three of these factors, statistically the chances of your marriage lasting a decade approach nil!
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I proposed with my grandmother’s (large, rather impressive, good quality) diamond reset into a new ring.
It went over well (and dwarfed all her school friends rings).
It is also a family heirloom, so it would come back if things go south.
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@Gramps
Thank you for another ripping post. It’s so great to have experienced guys breaking it down with some context. I actually ended a 5-year relationship because it was moving toward marriage as “the right thing to do”; she didn’t want kids and I saw it as the genetic death sentence it was. So I ended it. She was pretty and had a lot of money too. Sucks. Most people were shocked to hear that I left her, but my mother was very proud and told me most men don’t have the balls to leave such a cushy situation.
The woman I’m with now is healthy, happy, intelligent. Well adjusted, feminine, and submissive. She’s a little on the thick side but definitely not obese, and has a huge rack to keep it all proportional (boners don’t lie); meanwhile I have her working out with me 4x a week and she’s into it and enjoying it. She also knows upfront she’ll be doing this the rest of her life. She is also the horniest woman I’ve ever known; she’s a squirter and literally soaks the bed. Which is something that absolutely cannot be faked. She’s also said all the right things about never ever wanting to divorce, being fine with a ring from a cracker jack box, never ever wanting to upgrade it, and being concerned that I don’t spend too much money on it. Obviously I’m going to get her something nice anyway. I want her to look and feel good.
RE: cuckoldry… I can’t imagine an uglier issue. I’ve read many threads here about it and I think I have the solution. I won’t mention her morality at all; instead I’ll say, “Honey, I don’t trust hospitals on this issue no matter what they say, so, I will always paternity test all our kids to make sure we get the right one back from the hospital.” This woman worships me (so far, at least) so I really don’t think she would try to cuckold me, but this way I can nip the issue in the bud without casting any shadow over her trustworthiness. Hopefully other men will read this and realize there is a way to address this without suggesting his wife is a cheat.
@Eric
I agree with you as well. We all must use game to keep ourselves attractive and dominant in relation to our wives, thus causing her to hold up her end of the bargain by staying reasonably fit and horny. Any woman unhappy with such an arrangement is not a woman we should feel safe marrying. The way I see it, being an alpha man in LTR is not about male entitlement. It’s about giving the right woman for me what she really needs, whether or not she knows what that actually is (or why). By delivering those goods consistently over time, the right woman will want to hold up her end of the bargain.
At least, in theory.
@Jasmine
Jasmine!! Thank you for de-lurking and this excellent post! What you describe sounds like as nearly perfect as a marriage could be, and if I can get this issue resolved on the way into the marriage, it could be improved upon even further.
I absolutely will not call BS on you; THANK YOU AGAIN for taking the time to affirm my take on alpha LTR/marriage from the female perspective. If Dave From Hawaii was on this thread, I have the feeling he would echo my sentiment. Are you actually Athol Kay’s wife? I heard about his book and I hope it is a huge seller, I’ve read his blog before and very much agree with pretty much everything there. Your marriage is something many of us should aspire to. (I exclude the particularly bitter and angry men here from this comment.)
To your basic point, being up-front is what it’s all about. Actually we are each preparing written lists of what we must have in the marriage, and what is absolutely a deal-breaker. We will be going over these issues and making sure that each person understands the other’s needs and how truly important it really is. That way we’re both being painfully up-front.
@Polichinello
Excellent story, and I agree with you completely. I see the (slow) march toward marriage as ongoing tests for her, where I basically am continually turning up the heat/pressure on her to prove she’s serious by showing me her self-discipline, femininity, and submissiveness. If it turns out she can’t deliver these goods, I’ll walk, just as I did with the last one. But for the first time in my life, my instincts are telling me she’s the one where never before did this sort of thing ever happen. Meanwhile I very much believe that a married mom and dad is the best thing for children, so, I just don’t see how I can move forward in good faith, procreate, and yet still stay a bachelor.
@Begby
I wouldn’t say I’m naive about desiring marriage, after all that’s why I’m here. I realize it is deadly serious business and that’s why I want to do what Eric said: reduce risk and make sure my act is together. If I don’t have my alpha frame in place, my needs and wants organized, and my own self discipline intact and working fully, it is too dangerous to marry because of how women really are. I think that’s the crucial point of this blog as far as I’m concerned; women are great and all, but if you aren’t able to manage them they will destroy themselves and you in the process. It takes a truly superior woman to entice me into marriage. Sure, they are impossibly rare, but that’s the thing. If a man be knowledgable on this topic, he must be ready and able to recognize a good one and move forward IF that’s what he wants.
But it must be on the man’s terms, with the woman giving her enthusiastic consent to come along for the ride.
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Chrysalis,
No, I’m not Athol’s wife. Just another lucky wife married to an alpha. If you are both up front with each other and continue this into your 90’s you can definitely make it work and it can be wonderful.
(For my two cents on the ring: get one yourself. There is something very manly about that and she will appreciate the effort.)
I wish you both all the luck in the world.
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Thanks, Jasmine. That’s the plan. All the best to you and your lucky husband.
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Chrysalis, if you’re planning a fairly good sized wedding, you don’t have to turn up the heat yourself. Circumstances will do that just fine. Just work with your fiancee in good faith, and if things go bridezilla (which I personally doubt will happen after reading your posts), then it’s better to call it off before the vows than after.
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Thanks, Chrysalis.
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Begby,
That’s a fair point- a lot of the most desirable women would make a very bad bet for marriage. And the prospect of marrying an honorable 6 isn’t one for every man.
Every man has two wise options: Become a player and hunt these messed up honeys, or finding a more-or-less attractive virgin with intelligence and honesty and a loving nature, and going down the marriage path.
Either way’s a winner.
The only way a man can lose is to become engaged to a woman who’s been around, and then marry her without a pre-nup with a lavish ceremony and a 6 carat ring. Sadly, that route is chosen by most men.
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Chrys: I would take marriage advice here with a pinch of salt. With the high divorce rates all these skeptics are recalling, clearly the alpha dominant route is not the way to go if you want a long lasting marriage.
[Editor: Women who initiate divorce aren’t leaving alphas. They’re leaving betas who don’t sexually or psychologically excite them anymore.]
From the gist of msgs I can see here, the story seems not to be that marriage is a bad idea but that alphas make shitty husbands.
[Your gisting comprehension is weak.]
These guys however, will blame it all on the woman and absolve themselves of responsibility. Hardly the words or actions of a mature man. Just go with your gut and make sure you both work hard to make the marriage last. Good luck!!
[Because women are always and forevermore blameless, right jen?
Get off this blog, you dummy!]
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Jen,
I’m not a marriage skeptic – and the divorce rates are not as high as people claim.
But you’re misguided: What women and men really need in marriage is for the man to take the traditional and dominant role. When they don’t, then you have trouble.
Women are happiest then. Most adulterous wives betray their husbands because they seek to be dominated, to be fulfilled. If their husbands had taken the dominant role, most of this would be avoided.
You can’t argue with nature.
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@Jen
I think I’d meet you 49% of the way on that… a lot of men make shitty husbands. I think the thrust of this site is that too many men don’t understand women well enough to know what they need to do in order to keep LTR running smoothly. Married or not.
Starting from the premise that women are more complex than men, it follows that men will find it difficult to keep track of all the possibilities inside her mind, i.e. what’s going on with her and how to fix it. Men, therefore, will be rewarded if they can settle on a simple and consistent approach that lets women be women, without necessarily needing (or wanting) to understand all the details going on in her mind and her heart.
This simplicity flows from dominance. Women who reject male dominance have specific reasons for doing so, and that’s OK, but such women would not be compatible with me. There are plenty of other guys out there; if a woman wants to wear the pants, she needs a partner who wants that situation.
In my view, male dominance is an especially valuable quality when the woman out-earns the man. Income is the classic coin of the realm regarding male self-esteem, so in the modern world where women have so much more earning power, we men should be turning to male dominance as our new basis. It is valuable, necessary, and something that women cannot provide in its pure form. Best of all, it doesn’t have to cost anything.
It does, however, require men to wake up from the feminist nightmare, actively seek out this information, and learn to apply it in their lives through trial and error. Roissy has helped me do that, as have the many commenters here whether they agree with him or not.
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Jen,
A man with alpha characteristics who is mostly content being married is the best type of husband.
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An alpha who didn’t want to be married probably wouldn’t get pressured into doing so.
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When I got married, I proposed without a ring at all. I knew if she was willing to say yes without a ring that she would be worth getting a ring for. Afterwards I went with my sister, who had my best interests and not my fiancee’s in mind, and we got a reasonably (if the word can be used in conjunction with jewelry) priced ring.
The whole female world of ring idolatry disgusts me, so when I did decide to take the plunge the only way I would have agreed to it is if my soon to be wife agreed to go in not knowing if she was even getting a ring at all. Remember, you are more than just a bank account.
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No engagement rings, period. She’s just going to pawn it to pay for a boob job for her second husband.
The only reason you’re “engaged to be wed” is to give her time to plan the wedding. You want to give her a ring for that? What kind douchey tool beta would even consider such a proposition? The ring indicates that the wearer is commited. If she’s spending months planning an elaborate wedding and she’s not committed to you….?!?!?!!???!!!!! Talk about the feminization of men. JesusFuck! Man UP!
When you buy the wedding ring, go for quality, not size. Walk into a Zales, and then drive across town to Tiffany’s and you won’t even need a side by side comparison. Quality diamonds visibly outshine junk, no expertise needed.
FYI- Most of the visible quality is in the cutting, not the stone.
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Diamonds are, quite literally, junk.
Get her one yourself.
Look, I know this board likes to make a big show of preferring “natural” chests, but the synthetic kind are really a sine qua non if you plan on staying married to her after she’s, what, thirty. Or has your babies.
Unless you mean the boob job is actually *for* her second husband, lol. You never know these days
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And, I understand the use of hyperbole here (regarding purchases) as a corrective factor. I mean, “don’t ever buy the bitch anything” — along with its cousin, “make sure she spends exactly the same on you as you on her, to the nearest whole dollar” — are clearly ridiculous positions, but they are understandable as an antidote to fawning beta over-spending. Make the pendulum swing a bit too far the other way, and all that.
But, guys, if you make a six figure salary and you don’t want to buy her a decently nice ring (without junk such as diamonds) — remember she’s going to wear the damned thing for the rest of her life — then the problem is not hers, it’s yours.
Similarly, if you don’t delight in buying her clothes to make her look good FOR YOU from time to time, then what the heck is all the money for in the first place? Let’s face it, it’s not like guys want to make gobs of money just to spend it all on themselves.
Women like to feel owned. Part of ownership is marking your property and keeping it up. Spending your own money on that — provided it’s not disproportionate — is not “beta”, it’s just being into your woman.
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@ ritmo rioplatense
If she doesn’t ask than why marry? Why should a man come up with such an idea? I don’t think that it is any controling behaviour if a women after some two years of being together or getting pregnant humbly pronounces her dream to marry. You should be worried if she doesn’t. Especially if she meets the Nr5 criteria and has faith. If she is a woman of character she will not want her child to be a bastard.
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They’re all sweet and wonderful, and hot and willing in bed, before you marry them. If you want it to last beyond that, you’d better cast a cold critical eye and weigh your choice like no other investment you’ve ever made, and have solid game in hand for the rest of your life.
Never forget that this isn’t a romantic fantasy, it’s the most serious legal contract and heavy financial risk you’ll ever undertake. Clear the wishful stars out of your eyes, calculate the costs/benefits, and draw up a prenup that (as Chateau denizen Doug1 has always recommended) mimics the effect of a living-together arrangement in the event of marriage dissolution.
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How cute, we’re talking about rings and a bunch of masqueraded whips vent online against women.
That being said, the whole engagement ring industry is simply disgusting. I remember seeing a giant billboard in Mexico from a Jewelry store, it went something like “Buy her a rock, buy her worth, buy her”. It sounded like plain straight prostitution.
Most women enjoy the concept of a wedding, but watching programs like bridezillas terrify me. Where I come from, if you’re getting married you should be grateful and happy, not a giant blob of ego and stress. When I see that, it’s like picturing the girls from Sweet 16 (MTV show) about 10 years later.
@Rioplatense:
If you take good care of them, your boobs can look terrific into advanced age. Boobjobs are just terrible, have you seen the scars? They may look good and stuff, but when you take the bra out, you see what went on there. Plus, most women become insensitive, they get strech marks and you have to replace those bags of fakeness every 8 years. My mom is well on her 50’s and has a better rack that many 20 and 30 somethings I know, including those who have had boob jobs. The secret? Don’t use too much hot water, buy GOOD quality bras and use a nice moisturizer.
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Good-quality sapphires are as durable as diamonds (much moreso than emeralds), at less cost for larger size, and with a more striking appearance. Don’t get taken in by large stones with a bad color or clarity though – worthless. Color and clarity (and cut, but that’s more personal preference outside of a round brilliant diamond) are everything. Don’t settle for retail stores, ever. Learn gems and spend time with wholesalers. Never design the setting at the same place you bought the stone.
Rubilite is another good option for a semi-precious colored stone. Cheaper than ruby, stronger color.
If you know what you’re talking about, sellers will eventually stop bullshitting you. Gem sellers are like women, they’ll shit test you to start. Pass the test by showing you know gems, and they’ll treat you more fairly. It doesn’t mean you need a degree in gemology, but you need to know more than the Wikipedia entry on diamonds too.
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Related. http://i.imgur.com/FfdV1.jpg
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Years ago my gf and I were talking about marriage.
I began to clue in about her true nature when she began specifying what kind of ring she wanted. Pictures, and the requirement that it be “at least $20k.”
I asked her why.
She said “Because I travel in certain circles and I have an image to keep up.”
Enough said. I ended the relationship shortly after. Feel like a dodged a bullet.
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@azuzuru:
Bullet? You dodged a nuke.
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Congrats, on sneaking back into America with another bambino. Only 23 more trips, and you’ll have them all.
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This thread cries out for GBFM.
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Hahaha, I forsee some of you having your hearts broken by a hot Asian girl.
You deserve it.
{Editor: Asian girls have no curves. Do you, jen, have the body of a prepubescent boy?]
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Wrong.
We have a buffer.
His name is Gorby.
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Hey. Give to Gorby.
He won’t eat it. He doesn’t like anything.
Hey Gorby! He likes it!
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[…] Roissy: How Not To Spend A Ton Of Money On Your Girlfriend Or Wife, Prince William: Beta Chump, Engagement Ring Quandary […]
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Get her a ring. Don’t turn your engagement into a shit test if you want it to last.
Option A is the correct answer. Keep it simple. Go for quality over carats. The traditional gold setting should be thrown in for the price of the diamond. $2K should more than cover it. Don’t overpay at one of the jewelry chains and never, ever buy a diamond from a jeweler unless he mounts it right in front of you except if you already know and trust him. A local jeweler once told me that “all of the stories you hear about diamonds being switched in the back room are true.”
Speak to her father first. “I am intending to ask your daughter to marry me and I am asking for your blessing.”
It is a traditional sign of respect between two men. You show respect by asking and he shows respect by answering in the affirmative. The bond that will be built by that conversation is part of the glue that will help hold your family together over the long haul.
To fail to ask looks cowardly and if you are not confident in the answer that her father is going to give you, it may be time to reexamine your life.
Don’t marry in haste. Don’t marry too young. But if and when the right one comes along, you better grab her because you may never get another chance. The good ones are few and far between.
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How about: “I am intending on living with your daughter for a few years before moving on and I don’t care what you think about it.”
Sign of respect between two men. Why would I want the respect of my girlfriends father? What’s the point? What do I need from him? Why do I want him in or near my life?
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Next you’ll be telling me that you’ll be calling your girls father your father in law. Dad.
The tastiest watermelon is stolen. Steal the girl. Don’t aquire her from her rightful owner. Steal her like a man, don’t come supplicating to her and her family like a common suitor. Steal her heart and whisk her away and own her like a real man and be the replacement head of her house. Her father is now irrelevent and holds no more power over her. You are her new father.
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There is a clear dividing line in these comments between the boys and the men. Guess which side of the line you’re on xsplat?
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Steve, you can make mental dividing lines between boys and men if it makes you feel like more of a man.
I’ll content myself with being the type of boy women fuck, and with getting exactly what I want in my life. That will have to do.
You’ll have to content yourself with your manly self esteem.
Hope that’s working for you.
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Steve, respect for authority is an unattractive trait. Women prefer to fuck men who usurp their fathers over men who get permission from their father.
Your sexual strategy is beta.
And boyish.
Be a man and be a conqueror.
Petty little supplicant can’t even be the man of his own household.
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Steve, respect for athrty is an unattractive trait. Women prefer to fuck men who usurp their fathers over men who get permission from their father.
Your sexual strategy is beta.
And boyish.
Be a man and be a conqueror.
Petty little supplicant can’t even be the man of his own household.
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As Michael Scott said on the office after presenting his GF Holly with an enormous ring, “Yeah, well, y’know what they say — three years’ salary!” LOL
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