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Chateau Heartiste

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« The Aloof Alpha Attitude Explained
Game, Obesity And Men Dropping Out »

Is Finger Length Ratio Evidence Of A Woman’s Fidelity?

March 9, 2012 by CH

Here’s a very thorough and illuminating study into digit ratio (a subject previously covered on this blog) that adds a new angle: the relation of female to male digit ratio by ethnicity, and what it could mean about current human evolution. The study’s findings also have some interesting implications for pickup and game, and for male and female reproductive success and health in general.

This is a Big Info post, so I suggest you read the study at the link provided to get the full impact of its conclusions. Bonus: your diligence will help keep the comments free of non sequitur-ish clutter. To keep things straight in your head, it helps to remember that low digit ratio (a shorter index finger than ring finger) corresponds to exposure to higher levels of testosterone in the womb, and a high digit ratio corresponds to higher estrogen exposure in the womb. Prenatal hormone exposure influences the development of the brain, and thus the personality and behavioral inclinations of the adult.

The 2nd:4th digit ratio, sexual dimorphism, population differences, and reproductive success: evidence for sexually antagonistic genes? […]

We report data on the following. (a) reproductive success and 2D:4D from England, Germany, Spain, Hungary (ethnic Hungarians and Gypsy subjects), Poland, and Jamaica (women only). Significant negative associations were found between 2D:4D in men and reproductive success in the English and Spanish samples and significant positive relationships between 2D:4D in women and reproductive success in the English, German, and Hungarian samples. The English sample also showed that married women had higher 2D:4D ratios than unmarried women, suggesting male choice for a correlate of high ratio in women, and that a female 2D:4D ratio greater than male 2D:4D predicted high reproductive success within couples. Comparison of 2D:4D ratios of 62 father:child pairs gave a significant positive relationship. This suggested that genes inherited from the father had some influence on the formation of the 2D:4D ratio. Waist:hip ratio in a sample of English and Jamaican women was negatively related to 2D:4D. (b) Sex and population differences in mean 2D:4D in samples from England, Germany, Spain, Hungary (including ethnic Hungarians and Gypsy subjects), Poland, Jamaica, Finland, and South Africa (a Zulu sample). Significant sex and population differences in mean 2D:4D were apparent.

It has been known for some time that the ratio between the length of the 2nd and 4th digits (2D:4D) is a sexually dimorphic trait (Baker, 1888; George, 1930). In general, mean 2D:4D has been found to be lower in men compared to women (Phelps, 1952). The differentiation of the digits is under the control of Homeobox or Hox genes (the posterior-most Hoxd and Hoxa genes), which also control the differentiation of the testes and ovaries (Peichel et al., 1997; Herault et al., 1997).

Some people don’t like it when I use the term biomechanics in discussions of love and sex and men and women. They complain it’s reductionist, that I’m somehow violating a cosmic rule by analyzing the component parts of relationship dynamics and the sexes. I think studies like this must give them the hives, for every time one of these babies drops in the lap of intellectual debate, my reductionist worldview is further confirmed. Hey, I love poetry and starlight gazing and flutters of the heart as much as the next romantic sucker, and happily wallow in it, but I also love the truth. Especially when it has real world implications for my own life.

A correlate of maternal levels of testosterone and estrogen is waist:hip ratio (WHR). Women with low ratios have low testosterone and high estrogen, while women with high WHR have high testosterone and low estrogen (Evans et al., 1983). The WHR of women has in turn been found to correlate with the 2D:4D ratio of their children, i.e., women with low WHR have male and female children with high 2D:4D, and mothers with high WHR have low 2D:4D ratio children of both sexes (Manning et al., 1999). We argue that 2D:4D may be a marker for sexually antagonistic genes (Rice, 1996a, 1996b; Rice and Holland, 1997) that exert their effects prenatally.

I’m building up to a blockbuster hypothesis, so read the above again. Women with low WHRs, (that is, women with sexy hourglass figures) give birth to boys and girls with more feminine digit ratios — they pass their femininity on to their kids of either sex — and women with high WHRs (more boyish figures) give birth to more masculine sons and daughters. Scientists refer to this prenatal process as the actions of sexually antagonistic genes, meaning genes that are good for sons are bad for daughters, and vice versa.

On the one hand, low 2D:4D may indicate prenatal exposure to high testosterone and low estrogen levels, a situation that enhances fertility in males but reduces it in females. On the other hand, high 2D:4D ratios may correlate prenatally with low testosterone and high estrogen and be associated with low fertility in males and high [fertility] in females.

Digit ratio means something. It has real ramifications for your reproductive success, if this study is on the right track. Naturally, men and women don’t go around examining each others’ hands for mate suitability. Rather, we are attuned to more conspicuous behavioral and physical characteristics which act as a proxy for the genes that influence mate value and, by extension, digit ratio.

(Though it should be noted that there is such a thing as objectively appealing feminine and masculine hands. “Manhands” — hi Sandy! — are unattractive to most men, and strong bear claw hands on men are attractive to most women.)

I’m going to skip through a lot of tables and analysis on marriage rates, fecundity and digit ratio to get to the game-relevant meat of this study. (If you’re interested, some data I’m passing over for discussion include the results that male digit ratio had no effect on male marriage rate, but female digit ratio did have an effect — women with higher ratios (more feminine) were more likely to get married. Fecundity — large family size — was also positively correlated to high female digit ratio and low male digit ratio.)

We do not argue that the 2D:4D ratio is important mechanistically or as a display trait in mate choice. Most probably it affords us a window into prenatal hormonal conditions. […]

Our results indicate significant differences in mean 2D:4D between populations and confirm that the trait is sexually dimorphic. There was also a trend for 2D:4D to be negatively related to reproductive success in males (the English and Spanish samples) and positively in females (the English, German, and Hungarian Caucasian and Gypsy samples). There are many cultural and biological factors that intervene between fertility and reproductive success. Perhaps the most important is the fertility of the long-term partner. In an English sample we found high reproductive success in partnerships in which the male had lower 2D:4D than his partner and low reproductive success when 2D:4D was higher than that of his partner. When English and Jamaican data were pooled, there was some evidence of a weak negative association between WHR and 2D:4D in women. […]

The 2D:4D ratio is negatively related to testosterone and to sperm numbers (Manning et al., 1998). Our Finnish sample had very low male 2D:4D, and it is known that Finnish men have sperm counts that are nearly double that of men worldwide (Suominen and Vierula, 1993; Vierula et al., 1996).

Go Finns! The intra- and interethnic and interracial comparisons of 2D:4D digit ratio in men and women are the most interesting part of this study. The graph below is chock full of potential insights into ethnic differences in sexual behavior.

Poles of both sexes (on the far left) have the highest overall digit ratios in this sample, and Finnish men (far right) the lowest. Poles also show the least within-sex variance in ratios, and Finns and Hungarians the most. Intersex comparisons show that Polish women and men have nearly identical digit ratios and variance, and Finnish women are significantly more feminine relative to their male co-ethnics. Steady on, because this is leading to something.

We suggest the following model. Consider a man who has had high testosterone and low estrogen exposure in utero, i.e., he has a low 2D:4D ratio. It would be of advantage to him if his sons shared these characters. They may therefore make many grandchildren to him. However, what of his daughters? High testosterone and low estrogen could compromise the development of their reproductive system and therefore reduce their fitness. Similarly, a woman with low testosterone and high prenatal exposure to estrogen may produce fertile daughters but low-fertility sons. In such a situation, modifiers of genes controlling sex-limited prenatal testosterone and estrogen exposure may arise and spread. Eventually, we may expect complete sex dependence to characterize the expression of genes that influence prenatal hormonal levels.

The distribution of the 2D:4D ratio shows a high degree of overlap between males and females. This suggests that sex-limited expression is incomplete. Why is this so? Sex limitation is a complex adaptation, involving the evolution of sex-specific regulatory sequences (Rice, 1996a). It will therefore evolve slowly.

The fact that male-female digit ratios for many ethnic populations overlap and thus disadvantage the opposite sex children of the dominant gene expression suggests, tantalizingly, that evolution on these sex-dependent genes is in an incomplete stage. That is, we humans are a sputtering work in progress, and our current beta testing blueprint is rife with bugs and unintended algorithms. In his image, my ass.

Now we may begin the impolite hypothesizing. Are Finns, by virtue of their non-overlapping intersex digit ratios, a more evolved race than Poles? Not so fast. The study authors offer an alternative explanation to incomplete evolution.

However, other things being equal, it will eventually evolve. So do we simply need more time or are there other factors operating here? One possibility is the occurence of cycles of intragenomic conflict. Males, because they produce low-cost sperm, are able to fertilize many eggs. Females, because they produce high-cost ova, are limited to smaller numbers of offspring. In populations with polygyny or frequent extra-pair copulations (EPCs), the variance of male reproductive success is high. That is, a small proportion of successful males may fertilize a high proportion of eggs. When strict monogamy is practiced by most females, the variance in male reproductive success is similar to that of females. In such a situation, polygyny or EPCs may be a successful female strategy if there is substantial heritable variance in male fitness. If there is little such variance, female monogamy would be favored.

Suppose there are two loci controlling in utero hormonal exposure: one influencing testosterone levels and the other estrogen. A mutation arises at the testoster- one locus of a male, which increases in utero exposure. He has high testosterone levels and sperm counts, and these traits are passed on to his sons. However, because sex limitation is incomplete, his daughters have reduced fertility. The existence of such a male or small numbers of such males increases the variance in male fitness and favors a polygynous or EPC strategy in females. The high testosterone mutation will spread and with it the frequency of polygyny or EPCs. However, as the mutation becomes common, the variance in male fitness declines and females switch to increasing frequencies of monogamy. Now conditions favor the spread of a mutation at the estrogen locus, which increases in utero estrogen exposure. Alternating cycles of high prenatal testosterone and high prenatal estrogen will ccur. This is interlocus coevolution of sexually anagonistic genes. Such coevolution has the characteristics of the Red Queen process (Rice and Holland, 1997). Sexually antagonistic genes should affect fertility and, because of population cycles, may be at different frequencies in different populations. In populations with high prenatal exposure to testosterone in both males and females, there may be substantial differences in the variance in male and female reproductive success.

A negative relationship between 2D:4D and offspring number would be expected in males and a positive association in females. In addition, there will be selective pressure for the accumulation of modifiers that cause sex-limited expression. A population that is highly estrogenized in utero would have no marked difference in variance of male and female repro- ductive success, no strong correlation between 2D:4D ratio and offspring number, and little selective pressure for sex-limited expression of prenatal genes.

There is little variance in Polish male fitness, as judged by their tight gradient digit ratios. Or, to put it another way, Poland is filled with beta males and not too many omegas or alpha male cads. Poland is a place where female monogamy is favored. The fact that Polish men also have relatively high digit ratios suggests that the men are, like their women, more favorable to monogamy.

Now compare that to Finns. Finnish men have a lot of variance in digit ratio, and a very low (masculinized) overall ratio. We can then surmise that Finland is filled with a wide variety of men (relative to their population), from omegas to betas to alphas, who are, nonetheless, more masculine than men from most other ethnic backgrounds. Finnish women would be open to alpha cad flings, cheating and using betas as emotional tampons. Presumably, some Finnish men would be glad to oblige. Both sexes would be less disposed to monogamy.

That is, at least, what a digit ratio hypothesis into sexual behavior differences would tell us. Is it true?

Roosh recently wrote a post about how the Polish women in Poland were much more open to “beta male game” than American women are. He said Polish chicks loved being courted in the traditional sense, didn’t play “I’m the princess, here” games, and were inclined to long term relationships. His experience in Poland precisely matches my experience with Polish chicks. They really are sweeter, more feminine and less interested in short term flings than women from other backgrounds.

And both our experiences with Polish chicks corroborate digit ratio analysis; the high overall digit ratio and low intrasex digit ratio variance of Polish girls predisposes them to LTRs and preferring the company of more attentive, “traditional” men.

My hypothesis then, based on digit ratio analysis, is that in countries where the women have a high overall digit ratio (longer index finger than ring finger) and a low intrasex variance in digit ratio (where most women and men have pretty much the same digit ratio), monogamy will be the preferred relationship norm of the women and aloof alpha male game will need to be distilled with a heavy dose of beta provider game.

I therefore predict, based on the above ethnic comparison graph, that should Roosh go to Finland, he will have to run some seriously hardcore push-pull alpha cad game on the local Finnish women. If my digit ratio hypothesis is correct, he will find Finnish girls to be very similar to coastal city American girls, and very different from Polish girls.

Here’s hoping Roosh takes a detour to Finland and either confirms or falsifies my hypothesis. If he won’t, then maybe I will have to. In the interest of science, of course.

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Posted in Biomechanics is God, Foreign Girls, Ugly Truths | 214 Comments

214 Responses

  1. on March 9, 2012 at 6:59 pm Rick Derris

    Sorry, boss, I have to leave a completely Off-Topic comment.

    Austin is undergoing SXSW right now. The city has been taken over by tech nerds who think they are cool, hipsters who listen to bad music and film clowns who think “art” is bashing the bourgeoisie. Tomorrow at SXSW the PUA Adam Lyons is going to participate in a discussion with that smoking hot total 10 hardbody AMANDA MARCOTTE. The name of the discussion is “Sex Nets: Pickup Artists vs Feminists.” I am going to try to borrow somebody’s badge to go watch it because Amanda is just so damn hot (ok, enough with this sarcasm).

    I don’t know if you guys have ever seen Adam but his videos are good. He’s also a decent guy. He lives in town and I’ve met him a few times. I really hope he makes her look like an idiot. He will do it in a polite way though.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 9:32 am Fade

      SXSW is some cool stuff, its not all hipster like you say.

      Anyways “afc” Adam Lyons is one of the premier minds in game. Savoy (love systems the head ‘guru’ from love systems, actually paid him to learn game because he didn’t know any before.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 5:46 am Rick Derris

        OK, “field report!” I made it to the Adam Lyons talk this evening. He was really good and stayed composed during the panel discussion. Meanwhile, Amanda Marcotte dropped foul language several times. She came across as an angry, man-hating feminist. She related some story about a guy hitting on her in NYC, and personally I think it is total BS. Plus, she is NOT pretty at all. I don’t think any self-respecting guy could ever hit on her. She truly did look like a man with a wig on. I think Steven Tyler could actually pull off being a woman better than she can, and although I love Aerosmith, I admit Steven is not a good looking human being.

        The audience was filled with a lot of guys who seemed to be on Amanda’s side of things, which really, really bothers me. At one point she commented that we’re having a debate in this country on “whether women can have the pill.” No, you f*cking ugly bitch, the debate is on WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE PILL. Let the guy banging your sorry ass pay for it, not the taxpayer or anybody else.

        I really hate Amanda after this, and if she and I were the last people left on earth, well, too bad homo sapiens, but looks like the species would have to die out. I would rather masturbate with sandpaper than spend ten minutes with her.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 12:24 am LBK

        “The audience was filled with a lot of guys who seemed to be on Amanda’s side of things.”

        They are a bunch of beta white knights. Most men are beta to start with, and our whole culture teaches them to be even more beta. Parents, schools, government, media, entertainment, etc, all reinforce the beta indoctrination.

        And of course white-knighting is praised and encouraged. These brainwashed guys think it is virtuous to support feminism. All any female has to do is say, “Oh, poor little me, I’m being oppressed by evil misogynistic men”, and the white knights dutifully come running to her support, without regard to facts or logic.

        I hope that we can reach these guys and deprogram them, but some are probably beyond saving.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:10 pm Anonymous

        If these “guys” are on the side of an Amanda Marcotte than to hell with them. I cant believe any man would be on the side of such a vicious ugly fem-cunt. I guess once we men become “good feminists” than we will all live happily ever after? Google her pic;what a dog!!!

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  2. on March 9, 2012 at 7:01 pm Crank

    “His experience in Poland precisely matches my experience with Polish chicks. They really are sweeter, more feminine and less interested in short term flings than women from other backgrounds.”

    They also tend to have the best tits on the internet (with a few british girls giving them some competition). Not that I would ever look at such things, of course.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 6:38 am Nicole

      Problem is that they’re notoriously ill tempered and frigid to the point of generating many horrible jokes.

      There is a kind of tradeoff: more feminine usually means less interested in sex, whether in short or long term relationships. The good news is that just looking at a very feminine, young woman is a reward in and of itself. So for those willing to sacrifice frequency for a type of quality, it’s not so bad.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 1:15 pm Lara

        Nicole,
        Who is notoriously ill tempered and frigid?

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm Nicole

        Supposedly, Polish women. You’re probably insulated from some of it, being a nice lady, but bitches like I used to be get to hear all the good-I-mean-dirty jokes.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:11 pm Crank

        Let’s hear one.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 4:44 pm Nicole

        Well here, “Polania” means a Polish woman, but it’s slang for a frigid and/or cold blooded woman.

        Two Polish women meet at a cafe. One asks the other, “How’s your husband?” The other answers, “He died last week of a heart attack while digging up some cabbages.” The first one asks, “So what did you do?” The second one answers, “I had peas instead.”

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  3. on March 9, 2012 at 7:07 pm Joey Armstrong

    This reminds me of a study I read a few years back that correlated male pattern baldness with agrarian societies. Presumably, hunter-gatherer societies forced monogamy as the women and men relied on each other to provide for their families. In agricultural societies, women do not depend on a beta provider and therefore alpha traits such as high testosterone and MPB evolved.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 3:40 pm (r)Evoluzione

      Citation please. This does not square with the data I’ve seen. Agrarian societies tend to have shorter, less physically virile male speci-men. Conversely, HG men tend to be much more masculine, taller, more muscle mass, etc. Male Pattern Baldness is not an outright characteristic of total testosterone, but is determined by the proportion of total T to DiHydro-Testosterone. It’s higher levels of DHT that create baldness. It may be that HG societies have more antioxidants, which prevent conversion of T to DHT. More evidence is needed before you can connect baldness to agrarianism.

      [heartiste: from what i understand, baldness has nothing to do with total T level. you have to have a genetic predisposition for it, and then your follicles react to DHT — an androgen — by shrinking and falling out. so the whole “bald men have higher T” thing is probably a myth.]

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 11:50 pm Ian

        Yes, baldness could be a byproduct of other processes. However it’s such an obvious, easily identified feature that I have a hard time believing that it doesn’t exist to signal something.

        But I agree with you on finger length: agrarian societies have shorter, less virile males because of adaptations to deal with the poor diet which agrarian peasants survived on. Relying on grains or rice for 80% of your calories is poor lifestyle choice. Hunter gatherers evolved to be far more robust because they could rely on a healthy, varied paleo diet. Maybe they implemented that adaptation through higher T levels, maybe not.

        So comparing finger length ratios (ie prenatal testosterone) between HG and AG adapted humans, while interesting, is somewhat of an apples to oranges exercise. Testosterone is a signalling molecule, how the body processes that signal depends on other adaptations.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm Paul Canter

      As someone who is going through early stage male pattern baldness right now (I’m 20 yo) and have done a lot of research on the subject. Male pattern baldness has little (no) correlation to testosterone levels. You must have testosterone to go bald (can’t be castrated) and higher levels will make you bald faster. Male pattern baldness is dependent on the fact if you have the unfortunate gene that makes your hair follicles susceptible to DHT.

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  4. on March 9, 2012 at 7:08 pm Anonymous

    Need some advice

    Hit it off with a super cute chick yesterday daytime, at the restaurant she worked at. Exchanged numbers, and decided to text later that evening. She ended up texting ME, around 7. We exchanged a few texts. So today about midday I went to set up the date thru text. The exchange was the course of over three hours heres how it went.

    Me: Cool thats rare. do you want to hang out sometime soon.

    Girl: Yeah Sure. Are u coming toward *nearby city i met her at* sometimes

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 9:12 am 357

      You should’ve waited a few days to call her. You don’t want to seem desperate. If you don’t have a lot mate choice, you want to give the impression you do.

      Tell her next time you set up a date(phone call > text):

      If you have plans, break them. Meet me at x at X:XX.

      In my experience, the above line, when delivered quasi brutish, initiates the lubrication function in the female love organ.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:26 am Ripp

        For the most part, agreed. The waiting time can be shorter if she’s in high compliance (responds quickly, often). Not a huge deal.

        Phone better than txt to close meet. agreed. however if you’re not good on the phone (voice tonality) you can blow it. Also many younger women just don’t talk on the phone. txt only. ~35% of communication frame is voice tone. so if you’re nervous/being a pussy you’ll blow it.

        the best advice here is to NOT send a beta txt like you did: “do you want to hang out sometime soon?”

        she responded, which is good. but 357 is correct.

        Be TELL ASSERTIVE when closing for a meet:

        “meet me at x later”

        I always break up the [time,day,place,activity] into different txts and phone calls to test for compliance and flakiness.

        good luck.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 12:21 pm Mast Vajority

        thanks. The post you read of mine above was cut short on accident, and i posted the whole thing if you scroll down a bit, where others have responded as well. I feel you on the asking text… “do you wanna hang out”. I just follow Roosh’s texting guide, and it has been giving me success, so i dunno. He says something about forcing them to invest early on and also that by getting down to brass tacks, we avoid the tedious drawn out texting that could take forever to get a date. where i did fuck up, if you look at the whole exchange below, was when i didnt keep it short sweet, and logistical.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:54 pm Ripp

        “Roosh’s texting guide”

        I have great respect for Roosh although admittedly I haven’t studied his material in depth. All in all, these are “guides”. I learned from this one:

        http://www.datingskillsreview.com/texting-girls-ultimate-guide-to-texting-girls-the-attractive-man-artisan/

        These guides are excellent ways to get you started in building up your rotation of dating. I literally started the same way you did- by simply using a guide and using the txts verbatim.

        What you want to strive for is understanding the “frames” behind the texts and what the sub communication is- and you’ll learn how to respond correctly to keep her in check, qualifying her interest and know whether she is ready to be closed for a date or is just flirting behind her BFs/guy she is fucking’s back. The hotter she is the higher the likelihood she is getting dick from someone steady and keeping her options in the background (that’s you my friend :). Sad truth. Accept it, embrace it and pound that pussy.

        I’ll leave you with 2 points of suggestion:
        1) if you have iPhone/Android/Smartphone DL an APP that saves all of your SMS messages. I have SMS Backup+ (its free) for android and it saves all of my threads automatically to my gmail. An excellent tool to review and study. I now have ~100+ threads after 6 months and it’s helped to understand the “trends” (timing,teasing,date closing,flake qualifying,bullshit,etc) that women respond to. In turn you can develop your own material to be 100% congruent with who you are…the ultimate goal. I do have to say, it’s god damn fucking sad what women respond to. Chivalry. Is. Dead. heh…

        2) Rethink this in your head every time you txt: “she is in my orbit and she’ll be lucky if she gets to meet me or see me again.” No matter who/what she is. This is about you, not about her.

        Stack em pack em and rack em…

        ripp

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 6:59 pm Mast Vajority

        for sure. Don’t have a smartphone, although i’ve been considering getting one more and more lately. That sounds like a great way of tracking progress and spotting trends. After every failed encounter, you learn something new that you can either add or eliminate (usually eliminate) to further yourself towards sex with the next girl.

        The whole thing with this girl has bitten the dust as of now. Tried a restart text a few days later, got nothing. Then accidentaly resent a second text (one from our first round of texts) like two hours after. Retard moment.

        I’m approaching others, and got another number today, so i’m not gonna get strung out on her. However, i have been toying mentally with the idea of, in a week or so, going back in to get food (i didn’t mention shes works there at the restaurant, kind of a hostess) and being very casual and guaging her reaction. Its not outta my way. My job requires that i often go to a courthouse down the street from the restaurant where we met/she works.

        Was thinking quick acknowledgement of recognition then no smiles, nothin and maybe she’ll re-engage. Little investment on my part, and if it leads to a re-spark, killer. See, this girl was falling all over herself when we met. Constant eye contact, crazy smiling, asked me my name first, got her number..she texts ME first. plus we discovered we were born on the same day.

        I mean cmon, I was like, jesus christ i just fell ass backwards into a sure thing. I know that with women you cant take things as a given, but fuck.

        Irritating.

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  5. on March 9, 2012 at 7:15 pm Jeremy

    Have a look at this Oinion article – it’s sure to become a classic!

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/

    I just about cried I laughed so hard.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 9:38 am tyrone

      It already is a classic. That article is about 5 years old or more.

      LikeLike


  6. on March 9, 2012 at 7:18 pm Ian

    Biggest factor here (probably): length of time in which the local population has lived in an economically specialized system.

    Being a beta provider only works with economic specialization and the protection provided a functioning state. Poland has had these conditions for over a millennia. Finland for maybe a hundred years.

    It’s a bit more complicated than that, but that’s a basic explanation.

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  7. on March 9, 2012 at 7:20 pm DirkJohanson

    Now you have me wondering whether Colombian women even have index fingers; I never thought to look.

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  8. on March 9, 2012 at 7:24 pm A.B. Dada

    Great study — I wonder what follows ups cite it.

    Here’s an interesting part:

    A drive toward low 2D:4D may be limited by the negative effects of very high prenatal testosterone exposure on some males (e.g., autism, dyslexia, migraine, various cancers) (Manning and Bundred, in press). The spread of high 2D:4D ratios may be halted by the deleterious effects of excess prenatal estrogen (e.g., breast and ovarian cancers; see Manning and Bundred, in press).

    I wonder if a high-T man (low 2D:4D) and a high-E woman (high 2D:4D) make better babies as you’re combining both genetic predispositions, and possibly lowering risks of those issues above.

    If you have a high-T man and a high-T woman, would you see more autism, dyslexia, cancers, as you do today? Or what about the urban crowd of high-E girly boys and high-E artsy girls, creating kids with more breast and ovarian cancers?

    Curious thoughts.

    Roosh should go to Finland. I’d sign that initiative website.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 3:46 pm (r)Evoluzione

      The high-E dynamic, in both women and men, in part is driven by the xenoextrogen trend–BPA in canned foods, plastics, etc, as well as herbicides like glyphosate (Roundup).

      In reality, we’re finding lower levels of endocrine performance overall. In other words, synthetic estrogens make women less feminine, not more feminine. This is because in women, progesterone should predominate, and when estrogen dominates the hormonal mileiu, women end up being grouchy, fat, unsexy, unfeminine beasts. Does this square with the manosphere observations? I rest my case.

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  9. on March 9, 2012 at 7:29 pm Mast Vajority

    Would like some advice.

    I was in a nearby city for work yesterday. Hit it off with a cute chick in a deserted Indian restaurant. So we exchanged numbers, and i decided to text her later on that evening. Before i did tho, she texted ME. Game on. We went back and forth a few messages, and then today around noon I texted to set up the date.

    A note about the following: Shes Indian, but americanized, and her text style reflects that. All my texts were time regulated (basically rooshs text guide from bang). It went like this.
    —————————————————————-
    Me: Cool thats rare. do you want to hang out sometime soon
    ———————————————————————
    Her: Yeah sure. Are u coming towards *nearby city we met in* sometimes
    ———————————————————————-
    Me: usually just for work. what night are you free
    ———————————————————————–
    Her: Your night im free lol
    —————————-
    Me: ooo my choice?
    —————————-
    Her: Yup
    ————————————————————————
    Me: love that answer. tommorow. i’ll show you round my area.

    ( this is where i believe i fucked up. i meant the first part to be kinda flirty and cocky, as she was giving me strong interest, but i think it backfired)
    ————————————————————————-
    Her: Love that answer?
    ————————————————————————-
    Me: ya you said my choice. good stuff
    ————————————————————————–
    Her: Yup. come to my restaurant today.

    (I took this as a shit test, to see if I was gonna bend and do as she says. which is why i wrote the following)
    —————————————————————————
    Me: I have plans.
    —————————————
    Her: Ok no problem have fun
    —————————————
    And then i just didnt respond.

    I think i’m good still though I may have fumbled a bit. Should i try to firm up the date i was trying to make for tommorow? How?

    LikeLike


    • on March 10, 2012 at 7:48 am Theophilus

      Seems to me you screwed up suggesting a date as soon as the next day. It makes you seem too eager, and she now knows you have nothing else going on in your life. And you travelling to meet up is generally not good. Make her come to you.
      Also, your texts are too long. And don’t explain yourself: “ya you said my choice” – that was a shit test. You didn’t pass it, so she gave you another right after. And that one you passed just fine.
      You’re too close to oneitis with this chick. Your eagerness shines through. Turn up the indifference considerably. Consider flaking.
      Would be interesting to see how this turns out.

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      • on March 10, 2012 at 12:18 pm mast vajority

        ya a tad overeager. im thinking about just flaking and doing nothing and then strollin in there next week. Im legitimatley over there all the time for work and i gotta eat (there aint shit around there food wise)…dunno, i feel like I should strike while the iron is hot tho too, as i know well that girls interest can evaporate with time. plus ive only met her for 30 mins tops. i kinda was leanig towards get asian girlfriends thoughts about just assuming the sale. but at the same time, it feels lame to have to bring it up again, and in my mind it would seem needy after her not responding to my initial offer. man lesson learned, be unaffected, even with major positive interest.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 9:40 am Get Asian Girlfriend

      you messed up when you responded to her redirect “love that answer”

      basically THAT was the test, to see if she could throw you off, and not directly respond to your date TOMORROW (hey man, you don’t have to take her out at the nearest possible second, leave her thinking maybe you won’t take her out)

      if you are going to go super direct, and ask her out TOMORROW, thats fine, you you better stick to those guns.

      At this point, i would jsut assume its on. Real men don’t ask for permission.

      Text her: hey I’m running late today, but lets met up at XZY bar at 9 – wear a nice dress for me.

      LikeLike


    • on March 10, 2012 at 2:23 pm Aspie Nerd

      I like the 2 above replies, but I think your mistake was even earlier.
      When she texted “your night im free”, you replied as though pleasantly surprised. In my opinion, you should have given a date+time+place, nothing more.
      Probably not a fatal mistake.
      Congratulations on spotting her shit test: I might have replied similarly, but I might not have identified it as such.

      LikeLike


  10. on March 9, 2012 at 7:33 pm Matador

    Amazing!
    So, what would be the future of our species, barring any cataclysmic surprise?
    Are we heading towards polandification of finlandification?

    Because of the rampant bernankification, I’m favoring the second hypothesis.

    LikeLike


    • on March 10, 2012 at 7:50 am Theophilus

      Neither. Europe: Islamification. US: Hispanification.

      LikeLike


      • on March 11, 2012 at 3:51 am Stuki

        Judging by the current trajectory of the Church in Latin America, it will be Islamification there/here as well. HIspanic culture, as increasingly practiced, is almost as dysfunctional as our own, and on a similarly downward path.

        LikeLike


      • on March 11, 2012 at 8:11 pm Roger D

        Out of Africa, now back to Africa.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:02 pm chi-town

        Which is a side effect of indoorification and don’t need the chopification of wood for winter. Winter no longer kills off the dumb asses…for now.

        LikeLike


      • on March 15, 2012 at 1:17 am driveallnight

        “Europe: Islamification. US: Hispanification.”

        Women: Bernankification.

        LikeLike


  11. on March 9, 2012 at 7:35 pm J Beck

    Exactly right! I have lived in Poland and am partly of Polish descent – and this is spot-on all the way. Poland remains a charming, old fashioned place where courtly behavior works well at unlocking the vag – and Rooshian US Game definitely does not.

    And Finnish women are definitely on the slut side of Europe.

    LikeLike


    • on March 10, 2012 at 1:05 pm Mast Vajority

      Is your name supposed to be short for Jeff Beck the guitarist

      LikeLike


    • on March 11, 2012 at 5:00 am Lem

      JBeck: “And Finnish women are definitely on the slut side of Europe.”

      So the old stereotype of Scandinavian women being ‘up for it’ isn’t without foundation.

      LikeLike


  12. on March 9, 2012 at 7:43 pm The Man of Mystery

    Newest pickup line: So, I noticed your ring fingers are exceptionally long. Let’s fuck.

    LikeLike


  13. on March 9, 2012 at 7:56 pm Jon Lou

    Interesting. Also, first.

    LikeLike


  14. on March 9, 2012 at 8:14 pm Paul

    “Let the experiment be made!” – Benjamin Franklin, famous american philanderer.

    LikeLike


  15. on March 9, 2012 at 8:38 pm Leap of a Beta

    Hey, a post where I’m finally able to understand digit ratio! Hell yes. For some reason I hadn’t been able to grasp it before – I thought the digit ratio was in terms of circumference of the actual finger digits rather than length of finger.

    So, with my new understanding, I want to clarify for myself:

    Feminine digit ratio is when an index finger is longer than the ring finger. Masculine digit ratio the index finger is the same length or shorter than the ring finger. Correct?

    Are there any pictures to demonstrate what some of these ratios look like or are they to slight to really notice even with effort? The differences between a .99 and a .95 ratio seem like they’d be nearly impossible to detect unless you were using a game or cold reading involving someone’s hands to have a reason to look at them.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 4:58 pm Anonymous

      +1

      I’ve been unable to find that magic cut-off mark that defines low versus high.

      Wikipedia- average Male ratio 0.947, versus average Female 0.9665. The article then assumes a standard distribution and gives a spread of results.

      Short of there being a strikingly obvious- i.e. centimetres- difference between the index finger and ring finger, I would think that the differences would too subtle to be picked up by the naked eye.

      LikeLike


    • on March 11, 2012 at 1:35 pm Lara

      My ring finger is clearly longer than my index finger on my right(dominant) hand. On my left hand there isn’t as much of a difference, although the ring finger is still longer. Just take her hand and look at it.

      [heartiste: you do have a masculine style of writing. very direct, terse, logical. not much self-absorption or whimsy. nttawwt.]

      LikeLike


      • on March 11, 2012 at 1:51 pm Anon

        Those who read you could have guessed it.

        LikeLike


  16. on March 9, 2012 at 8:45 pm Socialkenny

    This is real deep right here.I’m gonna have to re read it few times to grasp it.Maybe even save the page.Good stuff.

    LikeLike


  17. on March 9, 2012 at 9:08 pm Flavia

    Very interesting. So would this mean that where polygamy is more often practiced- Africa, the Middle East (and in the past) the Orient the women are more masculine? Now I would agree with the two former, it does seem that African women have higher T than other races, but how about East Asian women? They have higher estrogen than other races (I believe)….So does the digit ratio matter in general, or in relation to how high T the men are as well?

    Perhaps, Polish women are more open to “beta game” because the Polish men are also more feminized. How would it work in a culture where the women are feminized and the men are not?

    I just checked and my pointer finger is longer than my ring finger, more so on my right hand (very noticeable) than my left (somewhat noticeable). WHR is standard. I would say I fit the stereotype of a relationship person who does not mind “beta game” (as in guys being sweet to me? lol yes of course, who doesn’t like that!?).

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 9:55 am tyrone

      Perhaps, Polish women are more open to “beta game” because the Polish men are also more feminized. How would it work in a culture where the women are feminized and the men are not?

      In Polish and Ukrainian society it’s valued because it’s associated with character and cultural sophistication in the popular psyche. A well educated man who dresses well and treats a woman well is seen as the trophy catch. They don’t expect him to be a pussy, however. That thought doesn’t enter the fantasy really, only insofar as he treats her well most of the time.

      Polish men are pretty tough from my observation. They don’t shy away from a fight in general, they stand their ground. Poles are possibly the only people in the world, who are more stubborn than Germans. From first hand observation, I have learned to respect Poles as solid people. So, the average girl gets a working class guy, who can’t meet this ideal of cosmopolitan man, and the cosmopolitan man is the dream candidate.

      It simply conforms to nature in the end. The stronger men in Eastern Europe simply weren’t betafied. They remind me of Germans of the pre-war generations. Women in general like and respond to it, in an environment where most of the men are strong. Nature tells them to become feminine and pleasant and make babies with a strong man so the race is thereby made fruitful and produces resilient people to withstand nature.

      LikeLike


      • on March 11, 2012 at 7:48 am Nicole

        I can confirm the assessment of Polish and Ukrainian men. Their cultures are very polite, but this is likely because once the violence is triggered, it’s often fatally intense. So the social contract contains a lot of good faith, but once that is broken, all hell breaks loose.

        Unfortunately here in Israel, where we have a mix of peoples, their being polite is often mistaken for weakness. Many here between 25 and 35 say that they feel invisible to women who go for the more brutish arsim.

        The younger guys have started imitating the arsim, but the ones who are a little bit older have too much self respect for that. I’m not sure what to tell some of them.

        I have one friend who’s almost 26 who I managed to get to read the 16 commandments and try things out in real life. He’s a firm believer now, and managed to take on a kind of scary extreme sports guy face for the ladies. He’s the only one I’ve managed to wake up though, and in a way I do understand the others’ resistance.

        Their polite but strong thing *should* work. The problem is not their strategy being wrong but that it is being used in a place where they have competition and that competition is more in-your-face flashy.

        The solution many have found, and I don’t blame them, is to consider the women here a wash and go back to their homelands to find a wife. Since it’s a free-for-all and women in mixed areas are generally going for the plastic alpha, why not woman shop in a place where they routinely like a guy who’s more solid?

        My take on this whole finger ratio and femininity as it relates to ethnicity thing is that what is the dominant culture really matters a lot. If you look around and see a natural trend that spells out things may not go in your favor, it pays to seek places and cultures where your masculinity would be recognized and appreciated.

        If you’re not thuggish, it’s not going to be appreciated in a place where the women are more masculine. You need to either go where the women are more feminine or at least seek out more feminine women.

        Works that way for women too. If certain groups tend not to recognize your womanhood, it’s time to stop beating your head against a wall and go home. Home can mean your own culture or an adopted one, but either way, these things are determined by forces much greater than the wishful thinking of multikulturalists. Some people will get you and some won’t, and most of the time, the genes are going to have more to do with that than “ideals”.

        LikeLike


      • on March 12, 2012 at 11:00 am Anonymous

        Any tips for dealing with Israeli expats in the US?

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 4:47 pm Nicole

        Be Jewish. That’s pretty much it.

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  18. on March 9, 2012 at 9:11 pm Mack

    So what is of interest to me are the implications of immigration within European societies (in particular British colonies containing Germans, Celts, Italians and Greeks). Surely a society is better off when it is homogeneous as the women and men are suited to one another.

    I would also be interested in a study of Asian men and women, although I suspect similar results to Poland.

    LikeLike


  19. on March 9, 2012 at 9:11 pm MW

    DC to Warsaw: From $499 return

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  20. on March 9, 2012 at 9:23 pm sally

    what if i’m a woman with a low digit ratio AND a low waist-to-hip ratio? is it the adult estrogen interacting with my prenatally-testosterone-primed brain that’s made me slightly crazy?

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:09 pm Nicole

      Yes.

      Best to come to terms with who you are biologically so that it doesn’t get worse as you age.

      You may find, as I did, that you’ve been doing the right things, but for the wrong reasons. Once you balance though, life becomes fun and a lot less crazy making.

      Try to keep your weight down though. Fat for the slightly higher T woman is as bad as it is for men.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:28 pm Anonymous

        i was being (slightly) facetious- i’m not that crazy. and i don’t have high testosterone levels as an adult- i was just exposed to higher levels in utero. and i have a low WHR, meaning that i carry basically no weight on my mid-section, and if i gain weight, it all goes to my hips- the subcutaneous fat on the hips isn’t that big of a deal healthwise. my current bmi for my height classifies me as technically underweight, so i am not particularly concerned. do you also have a low digit ratio with a low WHR? what is your myers briggs personality (aka astrology for pseudo-intellectuals)?

        i AM curious if having a mismatch in hormonal exposures pre- and post-utero (i.e. high T in utero, low T as an adult or vice versa) is associated with higher incidence of personality issues. i am fairly rational, particularly compared to other girls (i’m in a math/science field, i like philosophy, etc), but i am girly looking and really, really sensitive and emotional. it’s weird…i’ve always felt different than other girls, and i wonder if this could potentially explain part of it.

        LikeLike


      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm Anonymous

        and also, what do you mean by “doing the right things for the wrong reasons” (specifically relating to hormone levels)? that’s really vague, but i’m curious to know what you mean

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 5:14 pm Nicole

        I got the double dose from being from a family full of big scary folks and highly combative due to necessity in my youth.

        Genes, gene expression, and hormones certainly come into play. It only takes a little testosterone to do a lot to a person emotionally. FtM transexuals who start taking testosterone find that it makes them more emotional, not less. They have to work very hard to control it, and at that point they begin to understand what being a man is going to take.

        So you’re not crazy, just intense.

        About doing the right things for the wrong reasons, well…in relationships, when you have a high sex drive, you will prioritize sex and the quality of it higher than the average woman. The way you cope with that is probably going to meet your needs, but high sex drive with overly feminine motivation is a bad mix. You may have to learn to compartmentalize a bit like men do.

        If you’re thinking like too much of a girl, and you don’t understand that physically you are different, you might not quite get that your lifelong love and best shag are probably not going to be the same person. Your expectations wouldn’t be matching the reality. Other women are telling you about how wonderful sex with someone is, and they’re saying it because they love the guy, but then you get someone you’re madly in love with, and they’re like…meh.

        Then there’s the being too okay with dating guys who any higher estrogen woman might cream her pants around but avoid like the plague, or their polar opposite: girlymen. It is a good idea to pick a guy who is either more dominant than you or who completes you in a way, but again, tone your expectations and demands to reality. A guy who’s too girly is not going to be a man for you when you need him to, and a guy who’s too domineering is not going to be sensitive when you need him to be.

        Now, another big thing is that being logical and self assured means that in your inner dialogue, you talk to yourself like someone who’s got everything under control if *you* figure it out. It is crucial to remember that even though you have some blips of higher T, you are still a woman. The right thing you’re doing is having male friends. The wrong thing you might be doing is not listening to their advice enough.

        I’m just guessing here based on my own and other likeminded women’s experiences. You are so lucky to have found this blog and others like it. In a way, there is a kind of “inner man” in you, and this place will do important things in enhancing both your womanhood and your inner man.

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  21. on March 9, 2012 at 9:34 pm Anonymous

    My experiences with Finnish girls abroad was overwhelmingly positive. Very thin, fashionable, feminine, and cool. During an entire semester away from her rather beta boyfriend (he visited once), HB9 from Finland did not even kiss another guy. Every other long distance relationship either ended or endured some amount of infidelity. God damn I wish she would have cheated.

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  22. on March 9, 2012 at 9:41 pm Flavia

    Going by the average faces per country, I would say Samoa has the worst digit ratio, and Italian and Ukranian the best. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1355521/Average-female-face-The-Face-Tomorrow-Mike-Mike-project.html

    Dutch and Belgians are ridiculously good looking- http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/world-of-averages-europeave/

    How was Roosh’s experience in Latvia? I was surprised by the manjaw in the article.

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  23. on March 9, 2012 at 9:44 pm C-Money

    Haha, I doubt Roosh will ever set foot in Scandinavia again after his experiences in Denmark.

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  24. on March 9, 2012 at 10:31 pm Roosh

    I’ll do anything for science. I’ll probably hit Sweden first though, just to see if the game I learned in Denmark is useful there.

    LikeLike


    • on March 11, 2012 at 8:00 pm Glengarry

      Hey, wait a few months and go to Spain or wherever Danes go for their summer vacations. I wouldn’t be surprised if your supplementary lay report got a second round on their talk shows.

      All for Science.

      LikeLike


    • on March 12, 2012 at 11:04 am Redleg

      There are cruises between Sweden and Finland (1-3 days long I think) that are a staple of Swedish men getting out of the army. I’m told the ships are widely acknowledged hook-up barges. I don’t know if Finns come along for the ride, but it may be a nice way to get out of Sweden with an extra flag or two before disembarking on “virgin territory”

      Good luck.

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  25. on March 9, 2012 at 10:49 pm MeMyselfI

    “In his image my ass…”

    Yep.

    We an open-ended experiment in self-organizing complex systems.

    Or, farm animals that have no need for a farmer. The perfect farm, if you will.

    Oh, and “first!”

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  26. on March 9, 2012 at 11:00 pm Gregor

    first!

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  27. on March 9, 2012 at 11:07 pm Shark

    biomechanics ftw.

    My hands are small but I wear xtra-large gloves to throw them off my scent

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  28. on March 9, 2012 at 11:14 pm HR Lincoln

    Good stuff. Was the timing of your post inspired by:

    [IMG]http://glpiggy.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/sandra-fluke.jpg?w=630[/IMG]

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  29. on March 9, 2012 at 11:57 pm Anonymous

    Makes sense. But I have a question. Does this mean that the more feminine a woman is, the more feminine she wants her man to be? Not saying that a Polish chick wants a beta, but there’s a difference between a “traditional” man vs. biker outlaw.

    A post was made along these lines at the Spearhead recently. (Keep in mind, the article shows a poor understanding of Game). But it was about how
    Swedish women value “high-schoolish” signs of attractiveness in men – such as looks, athletic skills, knows how to play guitar, etc. Whereas American women only want “psychopath investment brokers”, as the author put it. The author thought it was because of Sweden’s socialist policies – in capitalist America, only a few rich men are on top, whereas in socialist Sweden, its like being in high school, so status is determined by more primal forces.

    The author’s premise is obviously undermined because he doesn’t understand Game. That being said, I wonder if the real answer is that American women have more testosterone than Swedish women, thus are in actuality more primal and more focused on sheer masculinity. They like those psychopathic rich guys not because they’re rich, but because they are more cold-blooded. They’d just as soon have sex with the aforementioned biker outlaw. Whereas Swedish women, being more feminine, don’t need a total asshole(though, still a man who knows how to run Game on them).

    LikeLike


    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:13 pm Nicole

      What it means is that the more naturally/biologically feminine a woman is, the less trouble she has recognizing masculinity without it being up to its shoulders in blood.

      LikeLike


  30. on March 10, 2012 at 12:50 am Nordic Lutheran

    Three hundred and twelfth.

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  31. on March 10, 2012 at 2:15 am Anonymous

    Slightly off-topic, but…

    Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) declares Manosphere to be “Hate”…

    “The so-called “manosphere” is peopled with hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general. Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts, they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express.”
    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

    Guess it’s now “Racist” to have a Y-chromosome and not want to be divorce-raped by a spouse.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 11:05 am Da_Truth_Hurts

      This site is slacking – we need to get on that list.

      I suggest we ratchet up the hate pronto. I’ll start:

      How many women does it take to change a lightbulb? None, because I don’t keep any lights in my rape. dungeon.

      LikeLike


    • on March 12, 2012 at 3:53 am Ripp

      “Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts…”

      Clearly written by an angry, ugly woman.

      And, no. The arguments ARE backed with facts. And civility is maintained for those who can post valid, logical argument again supported by fact. But when they don’t…

      …it sure is fun as hell to rip into the endless retarded vaginal discharge of uncontrolled emotional ramblings that contradict peer reviewed scientific evidence merely for my own light amusement.

      When one of these femicunt blogs can refute a claim using a sound counter argument referencing an accessible scientific white paper I’d read it.

      Can anyone share a link?

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  32. on March 10, 2012 at 2:38 am Black

    Fuuuuck… Can someone sum this post up in a couple of sentences or less?

    LikeLike


    • on March 11, 2012 at 1:33 pm Anon

      Fuck bitches. Get money.
      There’s nothing new, brother.

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  33. on March 10, 2012 at 2:40 am Rum

    When I was in Med Schul, I noticed that my ring finger was like a centimeter longer than my index finger. And that my jaw-line was stone-cold squarish. And that my Black, at the time, surgical intern fuck-buddy GF called me …… maximus the “Bearer of the Legacy

    Most of the time she did me from on top. ..

    LikeLike


    • on March 12, 2012 at 11:08 am Redleg

      hahahahahaha med schul.

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  34. on March 10, 2012 at 2:43 am Gummi Bears

    Okay. I just measured and remeasured 11 times. My digital and ring fingers are exactly the same. Also, my hands are neither masculine bear hands nor are they long, feminine pianist hands. If I didn’t keep longish nails, you could mistake my hands for those of a pre-adolescent child- small palms and short, fine fingers. My WHR is .69, but I have small breasts, and everything is very round (half-sphere boobs, bubble butt and roundish thighs as well) almost as if I were still a young girl who didn’t complete puberty. I’m also short and have a slightly bigger than average head which makes me look even more child-like. To top it of: large eyes, small nose and short full mouth. Yet, I’m fully grown- 26 years old.

    What does it all mean?

    Perhaps, my biology is connected to the fact that I don’t find what you call “alpha males” all that attractive. I’ve read your blog a little bit, and it makes sense, except that it just doesn’t apply to my own experiences and desires. Maybe I’m lying to myself, but I don’t really have a reason to. Older guys and those who are too smooth always made me nervous and uncomfortable, and not in a hot and bothered way. Never cared for sportsmen or fighters either. I usually hung out with boys as a kid, and my ideal lover is a a super close best friend type. Looks play a major role for me. I have a high sex drive, but a very low number of partners to date (I used to feel compelled to hint that it was higher because I felt embarrassed to be so inexperienced in comparison to what all the other girls would share), and I’ve only ever had sex or ever felt the desire to have sex with another person within an LTR. I’ll do anything in bed with my man, but completely shut down at the notion of someone else involved, watching or near. The very idea of a one night stand depresses the hell out of me, even though it’s not at all against my moral beliefs.

    I kept trying to figure out whether I’m more masculine or feminine, according to your standards. Do my finger measurements mean that I’m neutral, and does that make me biologically suited for a beta?

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm xra

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 1:30 pm Lem

      Gummi Bears: “but I have small breasts, and everything is very round (half-sphere boobs, bubble butt and roundish thighs as well) ”

      Probably need a photo, to give a considered reply.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 7:27 pm Gummi Bears

        I’d love to share a photo for the purposes of an intellectual discussion, and to be honestly evaluated in general by those who don’t say that “everyone is beautiful”. But I just can’t… It’s too scary.

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  35. on March 10, 2012 at 3:49 am Markku

    Compared to Russian girls Finnish girls tend to be less concerned about their appearance. They are fatter and dress less femininely, too, on average. Partly this is because of more feminism and and partly because of a social norm against showing off of any kind. In Russia, people put status symbols gladly on display because that’s a ticket to better treatment from others. I’d go to Norway instead. Norwegians tend to be more athletic than Finns, which translates into more of the young female population being lean and fit.

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  36. on March 10, 2012 at 5:46 am Arawn

    Roosh probably wouldn’t have to run any “alpha cad” game in Finland. Finnish women like foreigners (this is something that Finnish men constantly complain about) so he would probably get sex very easily here. Men here do also say that Finnish women are not nearly as feminine as, say, Russian ladies, but it has more to do with Finnish equality and practicality than how we women really look like. When I go to gym and see my Finnish sisters naked in locker room, many have very lovely figures and in all I would say that Finns have prettier faces than Russian or Ukrainian women in average though latter nations do tend to occasionally produce super beauties. On the other hand, plastic surgery is much more used in Russia and Ukraine than in Finland.

    What comes to monogamy and fidelity, my experiences are somewhat alike to what anonymous describes above. Finns strongly prefer monogamy albeit serial one and fidelity is really highly acclaimed, today even more so than couple of decades ago. Of course Finnish women do cheat as do all women but it seems that some cheat a lot and others not at all. One of the most promiscuous Finnish women I know is actually catholic and rather religious one, too, which is rather interesting…

    But, admittedly, I’m a woman so my point of view is skewed in that sense.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 1:34 pm Anon

      “Finnish women like foreigners”… who spit the right game.

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  37. on March 10, 2012 at 5:52 am y@approachexcitement.com

    @A.B. Dada

    Read this: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html

    (TL;DR: Geeks in silicon valley are having a disproportionate amount of aspergy an autistic kids)

    For some time I’ve suspected that Autism / Emotionality exists on a spectrum. The one side can be characterised as more male (High T) while the other as more Female.

    The findings in the OP just seem to corroborate this idea.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 12:06 pm A.B. Dada

      One of my “SHE’S TOO YOUNG FOR YOUUUUUUUU” gals last year had Asberger’s and it was actually pretty endearing, although she didn’t last because she adhered to the “Young women must flake” policy of urban gals.

      Thanks for that link — while an old article, it also corroborates with my own studies and research over more than a decade of “dating casually.” This issue is a big reason why I tend to avoid urban women for anything long term — if they’re artsy, they likely have some mental disability that creates a lack of long term commitment; if they’re clubby, they’re usually high-T with the make-up hidden manjaw to go with (and the cock carousel notches).

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 3:50 pm (r)Evoluzione

      The tech sectors, and Ivy schools, are hotbeds of self-selection bias, where the spergiest of the spergs go to study, work, and find mate.

      Thus, the autism epidemic (in concert with horrible industrial food, vax side effects, mercury in fish & dental fillings, etc.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 11:45 pm humansocialdynamics

        Come on, you should know better than to blame vaccines. That shit has been debunked over and over again.

        LikeLike


    • on March 11, 2012 at 5:50 am Anonymous

      Correction: Geeks in silicon valley are having a disproportionate amount of kids diagnosed with Aspergers.

      Given that, in those circles, Aspergers is considered an “I’m better than you” status symbol, I’m betting there are a disproportionate amount of misdiagnoses. When you add in the fact that wealthy parents use their children as mechanism to jockey for social status, the likely hood of children being misdiagnosed goes way up.

      Couple years ago, it was ADHD that was the hot disorder. Dumb wealthy parents thought a person with ADHD was “smarter” and more “creative.” The number of kids diagnosed with ADHD skyrocketed.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 11:32 am Redleg

        Bull.

        The current ADHD is a modern invention of the pharma junta that runs American medicine, crooked psychiatrists (see: all psychiatrists), and our failing public school system. Back when my mother was a practicing doctor in the 70’s, ADD (and the variant ADHD) were SEVERE disorders associated with fever-related encephalitis survivors: kids who had severe brains welling and brain damage. Kids who COULD NOT sit still and were, functionally, retarded.

        Modern ADHD really congealed in 1994 with the marketing effort behind Ritalin, and took off in 1998. It dovetailed almost perfectly with the rise of standardized testing, and the breakdown of public schools. Public schools are run by organized, middle aged SWPL women, who reward parrot-like female students (SWPL women in training) and penalize energetic, creative, or otherwise bored young men. It’s easier to teach a legion of compliant females than a legion of creative, bored boys. Standardized testing penalizes males, rewards females. Standardized testing is an easy mechanism that bureaucracy can use to justify funding, or changes to funding, without actual insight. Failure to succeed with standardized testing can spell disaster for one’s future, so parents flock to psychiatrists for an answer.

        Guess what happens? “Ma’am, I’m sorry but little Billy has ADHD. It’s not that the curriculum is drivel and the teacher is a swinish, squeeling warpig without an ounce of actual teaching ability. Your historically creative, energetic, bright and insightful boy actually has ADHD. But we can sell you the drug to fix all his problems, at a premium.”

        I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, the symptoms of which only appear, magically, when I’m doing unfulfilling, rote memory work (in school or adult employment) that women, shocker, excel at. It’s why I’m on CH during working hours. I did a fuckton of research on this for a college course, “History of American Medicine,” but I don’t have citations on me. It’s a google-worthy topic though!

        TLDR; ADHD is NOT a SWPL badge of honor, it is a shameful brand put on you by an uncaring school system which would rather churn out drones than actually nurture any real intellect.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:15 pm John Norman Howard

        Well done… reading a post such as this brings to mind the Chinese proverb which states that, at times, all men within the four seas are brothers.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 8:52 pm RedLeg

        I’ll take that at face value. As they say in the oval office, FIST BUMP.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:23 pm carolyn

        ‘…the symptoms of which only appear, magically, when I’m doing unfulfilling, rote memory work (in school or adult employment) that women, shocker, excel at.’

        my middle son was diagnosed adhd. we were urged to medicate him, which we did not. poor kid later got a job with the SSA calculating benefits, a task so tedious he would wonder in the morning whether it was better to shoot himself than put in another day. since he was on probation though, the administration did the job for him, canning him as he failed to be correct 95% of the time or whatever was the criteria to be made permanent. this from a kid with a 1360 sat-no dummy.

        the experience has him swearing he’ll never work in an office again. in his exit interview he told HR to throw out the exam they used to recruit and exclusively hire girls who had full blown or subclinical asperger’s syndrome. he himself saw that many if not most of the men never got out of probation; most women did.

        i tell my girls that generally boys don’t have the tolerance for tedium girls have. how many men would, for instance, have the lack of imagination to pride themselves on a sparklingly clean house so many women do? then they get mad at me as if i’ve impugned the worth of women. so i just drop the subject. sooner or later they’ll be forced to believe either the pc message or their lyin’ eyes.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:55 pm John Norman Howard

        i tell my girls that generally boys don’t have the tolerance for tedium girls have. how many men would, for instance, have the lack of imagination to pride themselves on a sparklingly clean house so many women do?

        A sparklingly clean house is nothing to sneeze at… a man likes to come home to a bit of order, not a “the kids are still alive, I’ve done my job!” school of Roseanna Barr slovenly domestic engineering one sees today.

        Pride in a job well done is not lack of imagination.

        And men have a great capacity for detail which women might call tedium… look at the pride they take in everything from fantasy sports stats to model railroading to [whatever].

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 6:25 pm carolyn

        i should have made that clearer–the sparkling clean house the_man_produced.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 8:59 pm RedLeg

        People several generations ago understood that the genders were, not to borrow indelicately from history, but: separate and equal.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 9:01 pm RedLeg

        Yeah, HR, the estrogen-charged sorority of useful idiots. Kapos and kowtowers who live in constant terror of lawsuits.

        Sounds like your son has had a rough go of it. Maybe he (and I, and others) should pull a Biff Loman and go work on a ranch, or become carpenters.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 3:32 pm carolyn

        sounds like good advice.

        my son’s back in school to get teacher certified in high school math, then get out of nyc for a job in the new england boonies, where the hours will afford him time to hike and do the outdoorsy things he loves. he has his parents’ blessing.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 10:40 am Tyrone

        It sounds to me like he has a good discrimination law suit waiting in the wings. He needs to get a good lawyer.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 10:27 pm dante

        100% agree here. My mom works as an elementary school psychologist. While there are true ADD/ADHD/Aspbergers cases she tells me about, they are the vast minority.

        She finds it very frustrating to work with the ones dx’d as such but really aren’t, because once they go “into the system” and start the drugs, you don’t really come out. And are forever adhd – not that they have poor household nutrition, get no exercise, terrible “teaching” practices made to enforce conformity, and are just generally acting like little boys do when in a shitty situation. She’s the first to tell you they don’t need a psychologist. They need structure and energy burn off.

        And yes, most of the dx’s are in boys. It’s such a crock.

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  38. on March 10, 2012 at 6:48 am expat finn

    If you were to conduct the field experiment as suggested, you might, well, pick up some distorted signals along with the girls.

    The predominant sentiment in Poland is social conservative, nationalist, even anti-foreigner. This contributes without a doubt to the kind of reactions Roosh reported. On the other hand, liberal sexual morals and feminist-leftist multiculturalism reign supreme in urban Finland. Women award you a bonus point for being a foreigner. Two, if you’re black. Good luck calibrating your experiment variables.

    But then, maybe digit ratios within given populations have shaped the respective societies to begin with. That is, the Poles are conservative etc. and the Finns promiscuous etc. _because_ of their congenital predisposition.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 1:33 pm Aspie Nerd

      “Women award you a bonus point for being a foreigner. Two, if you’re black.”

      That has probably nothing to do with multiculturalism: it’s probably because most non-Finns spontaneously show some sign of emotional life (and most Aspie nerds like me have learned to fake it).

      As for Blacks: if men prefer blondes, it makes sense that women prefer blacks.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 1:08 pm John Norman Howard

        Contrary to what you’ve been watching on the one-eyed Jew tube, the Heidi Klums and Nicole Simpsons of the world are the exception, not the rule… and mudsharking always has its, shall we say, unpleasant collateral damage.

        Not having a lot of experience with real-world Negroes en masse, it’s not surprising that urban women in Finland (the land of the dour-faced tango) might find an amusing novelty about the occasional above-average shitskin that wanders through.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 8:06 pm Anon

        The miscegenation rate in semi-rural areas are much higher than urban areas. I’d guess 30% to 50%.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 3:20 am Arawn

        Actually this has some truth in it. Foreigners in bars tend to be somewhat sober and polite when they hit on girls unlike many Finnish men who are very drunk and hard to get rid off if girl is not interested. And foreigners, especially blacks, are much more confident and so they hit on more women than Finnish men so naturally their succeed rate is also somewhat better. They also hit on women in public places like streets, libraries, but stops etc., something that Finnish men never do. Not that I like it at all, I’d prefer to be left alone when I’m doing my business but as foreigners they get a free pass breaking social norms and I suppose they also succeed sometimes. There was one Finnish blogger who married black muslim guy whom she had met at the bus stop…

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 4:08 am Ripp

      “Women award you a bonus point for being a foreigner. Two, if you’re black. Good luck calibrating your experiment variables.”

      Curious: is this your theory based on one or two observed isolated incidents? Can you post a source?

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  39. on March 10, 2012 at 7:58 am GeishaKate

    If anyone ever tries the online dating site chemistry.com, one of the questions included in the personality test has you select your finger length ratio.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 1:34 pm Aspie Nerd

      Do they ask men about the length of any other part of the body?

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 12:26 pm GeishaKate

        Hahaha. No, they do not. You have to ask that yourself 😉 I just thought it was cool that the matching process was sort of “scientific.”

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  40. on March 10, 2012 at 8:04 am Rupert

    Alex from RSD has a video about Finnish girls. He seems to suggest that you actually have to go pretty easy on them, because they’re easily intimidated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yVlyq-sdY&feature=player_embedded

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  41. on March 10, 2012 at 9:32 am tyrone

    This matches my experience as well as history. I could have told you exactly that without the study. Every culture in Europe is distinct and they fall out in groups of similar cultures. Polish and Ukrainian women have had their reputations in Europe since well before the 18th century. Napoleon kept a Polish mistress for example. Ottoman Turks were keen on raiding Ukraine specifically for women. The Vikings established the slave trade in Slavonic women in the first place in the 9th century. The Vikings made a lot of money this way from the Arabs. It is why you see blonde women in Turkey today.

    Baltic peoples, especially Finns are more logical in their world perspective and repress their emotions, as do the Scandinavians. Finns and Scandinavians can fit into German society without effort. Close emotional ties are not as high an ideal for them as with Slavs. Germany doesn’t annoy them in the same way it annoys peoples not used to a rigid, highly planned society.

    If you want to be married to a Slavonic woman, you have to be firm but kind most of the time. They eat up the old world gentleman conduct. Its best to wear good fitting business casual clothes on dates with them, bring them flowers, etc. Every now and again, in an unredictable way, you need to go Drill Sergeant on them in push pull fashion, letting them know they’re not meeting your standards. Even if they are meeting them, you need to do this about twice a year, just to maintain hand.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 6:34 pm Flavia

      Actually it was the Khazars that establishd slavery in the Slavic world- before the Vikings. The Scotts freed us (for the most part).

      From Wiki: Between the 6th and 10th centuries AD, members of pagan Slavonic peoples were taken prisoner by the Khazars, Kypchaks and other steppe peoples and taken to the slave markets in Crimea.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 9:46 pm tyrone

        I don’t doubt that. However, you’re talking about the Caspian region, not Ukraine and the Dniepr or Moscow. Both were founded in the early 9th century as Viking trading posts. The Vikings were the first to navigate the Dniepr all the way to the Black Sea. From there they traded slaves and anything else that turned a profit and they dealt with merchants from all along the Silk road. By the 10th Century, they dominated this trade.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 8:15 pm Nicko

      The blondes in Turkey are mostly a result of voluntary migrations of muslim-slavs/Bosniaks from the Balkans, most of them from Serbia. For example, look at the Turkish basketball players – with the exception of Ilyasova who’s parents are muslim from the former Soviet Union, all the other players Turkoglu, Turkcan, Erden, Okur, Asik and a few others have light features and are of Bosniak descent from Serbia. If Turkey didn’t allow migrants, Turkish sport would be non-existant

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 9:42 pm tyrone

        I don’t think so. There’s not enough time for that to make an impact. There’s a lot of history you’re overlooking there.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:21 pm Nicole

      John wept.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:34 pm John Norman Howard

        While blowsy Negress slept.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 5:21 pm Nicole

        No, I got my clothes and left before your dick dried off.

        Why are you still mad at me?

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  42. on March 10, 2012 at 9:35 am Get Asian Girlfriend

    It’s foolish not to attempt pick up from an ethnic perspective.

    Women from different places respond differently to certain types of game. its been proven in this article, and on this site at other times.

    If you’re treating all women the same based on where you are living in the world (or your life sucks and you never vacation or live abroad) then you are making a big mistake.

    Thats why when i spent years living in asia, I learned the in’s and outs of how to pick up asian women based on where they are from, and I actually compiled a guide on how to do so. Check it out if you get a minute.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 6:35 pm Flavia

      I’ll save you the guide. How to get an Asian girlfriend.

      1) Step one: Be White

      The End.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 1:12 pm Lara

        Funny and true.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 3:41 pm n/a

        How to piss off a white woman:

        1. Step one: Get An Asian Girlfriend.

        The End.

        –lol–

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 6:19 pm Flavia

        I’ve never once in my lifetime (including 7 years living in Asia) met a desirable man who had an Asian girlfriend.

        When an individual who is not ethnocentric leaves our tribe, the tribe becomes more ethnocentric. So on balance, I suppose it is a win-win.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 4:23 pm n/a

        The average white women is becoming uglier and uglier and cuntier and cuntier. This is the truth.

        The elite Asian females: read Japanese and Korean — now come equipped with tits and ass and many retain the ability to fuck, cook, clean and generally stay quiet when there’s no need to speak.

        Fat feminist white whores hold no interest. But hate-fucking a hot, white NYC feminist cunt is worth the hour.–

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 4:24 pm n/a

        *woman

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 5:49 pm Flavia

        “The average white women is becoming uglier and uglier and cuntier and cuntier. This is the truth.”

        No argument from me there. They’re getting uglier (and probably cuntier) because they’re becoming giant obese whales. A healthy woman that literally eats herself into a disability. It’s revolting.

        However, I do think that desirable males can still keep it within the family and would encourage them to do so (Baltics/Slavic countries/Southern Latin America). It just seems kind of sad to abandon your race because you couldn’t find a suitable woman. Don’t men want their children to resemble them?

        And like I said before, if they don’t, it’s a win win.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 1:53 pm Redleg

        Yes, abandon race to acquire hyper intelligent eastern genes. Nothing wrong with a competitive advantage.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 9:23 pm Nicole

        Oh you haven’t tried getting a Black one.

        White hot rage, that’ll get you.

        Every time I get with a guy and his ex wife hears about it, she’s back within a month.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 12:23 pm Redleg

        Requesting tips to acquire black women. Asian women are no longer challenging, also sick of narrow hips.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 5:38 pm Nicole

        Be fearless. If a man acts like he’s afraid of us, it’s a big turnoff. If you can, even be a bit challenging though humorous.

        Also, remember the social contract. Whatever it may look like, Black women who aren’t in the ghetto were usually raised by hard core fathers. So if you see them in a club or somewhere like that, there is this little voice inside them that they are sinning. So you can play on the preacher’s daughter thing.

        One important thing to note is that most of our parents met and shagged shortly thereafter. There is such a thing as a one night stand for us, but this is when something is wrong with a person. We tend to retain lovers. If people see you come to the same place after you’ve pulled there already, you need to have an excuse. Folks will be in your business.

        Then there’s the crazy…It’s not that we usually think we’re your girlfriend after one shag, but if you’ve been doing someone for awhile, they at least think they’re your bitch, and for us that means something. So you will need to actually break up from that. If you don’t then the next time you see her, she might make a scene.

        So really, don’t go there unless you’ve had enough experience with women to be very very dominant. Don’t be afraid of appearing to be racist or abusive because you might get tested.

        Oh one more big thing is NEVER let her strike you even in play, and get away with it. If she hits you, hit her back with just enough force to let her know you are not the nice White guy or give a flying fart if people on the street would cast her as the victim just because she’s female and Black.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 1:50 pm Redleg

        Roger, act like a black man. Insight appreciated.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm Nicole

        Redleg, all functioning men are Black in the dark. 😉

        Yes, I’m in Haifa.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:41 pm John Norman Howard

        Heh, heh… Nicole in Israel… dancing a mean hora, as her legion of White admirers try to put a ring on it.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 5:26 pm Nicole

        Again, you read but don’t understand.

        Almost nobody here is trying to put a ring on anything not within their respective ethnicity. You’d love it here for about five minutes.

        Thing is, the Christian Russian girls don’t like girlymen. That fawning, worshipping thing would just win you a gold digger, and the dregs of them at that.

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      • on March 13, 2012 at 1:55 pm Redleg

        Oh so you’re in HAIFA.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 9:38 pm tyrone

        Why do you think they like white men more? I was in Atlanta this weekend and saw a number of Asian women- US man couples. However, there were a number of pretty US women in the mall as well. I don’t usually go to malls, so it was interesting for me from an anthropological standpoint. This was Lennox Square Mall, in Buckhead. It’s a better version of Tysons, as they have a lot of very high end retailers there. I think they are both owned by the same corporation. Atlanta is a nice city. They have a number of gentrified neighborhoods downtown and a number of good places to eat. Its also the best city I’ve been in for buying home decor.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 12:25 pm Redleg

        Asian women like white men (especially hee-broos) because they’re more masculine than their asian counterparts, but not so much so that they can’t bring them home to the folks without causing a riot. For 1st and 2nd generation asians who haven’t fully assimilated, a white guy is a good mix of beta provider and lesser alpha (it’s all relative baby).

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  43. on March 10, 2012 at 9:49 am larronzo

    The Finnish and Hungarian people share the same ancestors. The scattering of the Finno-Ugric family of peoples from their ancestral home occurred about c. 4,500 years ago.

    Finno-Ugrian or Fenno-Ugric is a traditional group of languages in the Uralic language family that comprises the Finno-Permic and Ugric language families. The three most spoken members are Hungarian, Finnish, and Estonian.

    Another tidbit: On the “Penis Size Worldwide” map, the Hungarians (as a country) have the biggest average-size dicks in Europe, and are equivalent to the biggest average-size dicks worldwide.

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    • on March 10, 2012 at 2:45 pm John Norman Howard

      Does having the smallest big-sized dick worldwide trump your biggest average-sized dick?

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  44. on March 10, 2012 at 12:09 pm Anonymous

    A bit OT, but not totally irrelevant, if one can read their 2D:4D in connection to their whole body (and politics): here’s an int’l women’s day gift 😀

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamnamazie/files/2012/03/NudeRevolutionary_Calendar_2012-13.pdf

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 4:13 am LFP

      Besides Miss October, rather nauseating. I mean, I’m no Adonis myself, but if you’re old, fat, and ugly, why pose nude in a calendar? Attention from betas and lesbians is that powerful a motive?

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  45. on March 10, 2012 at 12:22 pm 357

    Suicide rates are higher for men because there’s a war against masculinity … I’d suspect the whores waging the battle are low 2D:4D, and their warlock handmaidens are high 2D:4D.

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  46. on March 10, 2012 at 1:43 pm xiagox

    I’d like to see these studies extended to south american, african, middle eastern and asian populations. Very interesting!

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  47. on March 10, 2012 at 2:02 pm Anonymous

    What’s the best way to measure the index and ring fingers? From the palm creases or from the outside of the hand right on the joints?

    [heartiste: according to the study, you should measure from the tip of the finger to the crease it makes with the palm.]

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:56 pm (r)Evoluzione

      Easy way to measure from another article:

      Place one palm at a time on the scanning bed, and make a photocopy. Do both hands, and as you make the copy, squeeze all your fingers together so all the fingers are all parallel. Then, , on the copy, measure, as is noted, from the palmar crease to the tip of the finger. Measure in millimeters, and divide the 2D by the 4D number to get your ratio. Long-ass fingernails don’t count.

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  48. on March 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm Aspie Nerd

    A few remarks, based on the graph, which might earn me a place on the splc blacklist.

    First, I cannot help giggling when I see that the only country where men have higher 2D:4D ratios than women, is the country that gave us the word “macho”.

    Second, I am surprised that the country of Margaret Thatcher, Elizabeth I, Queen Anne, Victoria, Elizabeth II, etc, has such feminine women.

    Third, and most important: the fact that Finns and Jamaicans have the lowest digit ratios, shows the limits of this approach: do you really think that you can run the same sort of game in Finland and Jamaica?

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  49. on March 10, 2012 at 3:45 pm Au naturale

    What role does the condom and other BC play in all of this? Sure alpha cads are getting much more action, but it doesn’t mean they’re impregnating every girl they cavort with.

    Also, I’ve found digit ratios to be unreliable. My own ratio changes throughout the day, ranging from very low to almost even in length. And what about hand position? Measuring from different sides yields different ratios.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 8:01 pm Anon

      Smart alphas fuck women with condoms.

      Dumb alphas fuck women without condoms.

      Thus, in America, we are getting overrun with dumb alpha spawn.

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  50. on March 10, 2012 at 4:11 pm Anonymous

    http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/03/06/the-richer-sex/

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  51. on March 10, 2012 at 10:52 pm chris

    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-03/w-mrm030512.php

    Feminist:”Genes have no influence on differences between men and women’s behaviour! Durkha durrrrrr!”

    LikeLike


  52. on March 11, 2012 at 12:13 am Anonymous

    Eurocup in Poland and the Ukraine this summer: does that screw everything up?

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  53. on March 11, 2012 at 6:54 am berg

    Also, Roosh in “Don’t Bang Denmark” said that the Danish women said “Polish women are whores”

    I think there is truth to this stereotype.

    Could it be that Polish women are indiscriminate in comparison to a Finnish or Danish woman?

    Logically, if you had to choose a man for a one night stand…wouldn’t you choose the Alpha over the Beta?

    So a woman who chooses an alpha for a one night stand is more logical, and mathematical (a quick calculation of thrust, ass, dick ratio) than the woman who would sleep with a beta.

    But the FACT that Women Are Having One Night Stands is not due to Evolution or finger ratios, but to the Brain Virus of the last 40 years.

    And the stereotype says that Polish women are having more One Night Stands then Nordic women.

    Which disproves your premise. [Your premise being that Polish women want LTR’s versus Finnish women wanting Alpha fucks]

    Polish women appear to be more into betas, but in reality it is because they are not coolly logical enough to calculate force of thrust based on a man’s booty size and think through the whole ‘who would be funner for a one night stand?’

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:29 pm tyrone

      All women call other, rival women whores. It’s a universal insult and all women are basically saying “that bitch is lowering everybody’s market value by putting out more than we are.” None of it is universally true. Most likely Finnish men are going to Poland because they like the women better. The very first thing Finnish women would say about Polish women, is they’re whores. American women like to label all foreign women as subservient and sexually accomodating, hence the accusation of these foreign women also being whores. Its all female competition.

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:43 pm chi-town

        Oh hell yeah. Its a sign one group of women considers another a threat far more than any actual truth. Women will also start go after any flaw a woman has if she happens to be beautiful. When ever women speaks highly of a woman’s particular feature, cancel any blind date you may have because it is but one spire that rises above the surrounding slum.

        So in other words everything a woman is saying has no truth in it when it comes to sexual competition and I mean absolutely zero.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:36 pm Nicole

      I think liklihood of kidnap had more to do with the development of preference. Some feminists really wouldn’t like to think that rape and the chance of it influenced female preferences, but that was the reality of life back in the days when there was more frequent raiding and the like.

      Those who survived slavery, forced migrations, marriage by kidnap, and the like, in areas where these things were frequent, would be the ones who could handle it.

      In Ethiopia kidnap marriage is very common to this day, and the women tend to carry less body fat even when well fed, have smaller breasts, and broader shoulders than other African women.

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 12:51 am James

      It’s possible (and much more likely) that Danish women are just jealous.

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 3:35 am Arawn

      No, they really are whores. Well, of course most of them are not. But for example in Finland most prostitutes that work here are Estonian or Russian so women of those countries have a reputation as being whores. Also Finnish men often travel to Russia or Estonia solely to enjoy prostitutes or do it while they are on business trip. And it’s not only Finnish women who think like this, men share it, too. Earlier Markku pointed out that Finnish women dress rather moderately which is true and they do it because they like comfort and practicality. However, if you were to dress like a Russian lady and go to a Finnish bar, it’s almost 100 % likeliness that you’ll get asked “how much?”

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      • on March 12, 2012 at 1:48 pm chi-town

        One thing that makes a whore is being in need of money and they go where the money is. One thing that makes a John is having money. Finland has a social safety net and thus Finnish society is their sugar daddy already. So you are seeing a regression where a society will have more prostitution and…more women looking for providers and protectors. That is why you will hear reports of both prostitution and high levels of relationship satisfaction for more beta behavior.

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 1:01 pm Aspie Nerd

      There is truth to some stereotypes, but widely-believed stereotypes are usually wrong, and 2nd-hand stereotypes (“Roosh says that Danish women say…”) can be safely assumed to be wrong.

      First, the sort of Danish girls Roosh met are not representative, OK? No matter what Roosh says. If he had been working and making friends through work, he’d have met ALSO a different sort of girl, which is almost the opposite. (Strange that there are few Danish girls in the middle of the spectrum.)

      Second, if you live there long enough, you’ll see that Danes of both sexes claim that you get your money’s worth when you pay Danish wages to Danish workers; but when they need work done on their houses, they hire East.European workers, who do a much better job at lower wages. (I could tell you some stories about that.) Watch what Danes do, don’t listen to what they say.

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  54. on March 11, 2012 at 7:00 am berg

    Ahh man, I wrote another post above that one but it’s not showing up 😦 I hope it didn’t get lost…

    Basically I disagree with the validity of your conclusion. I believe that higher-T populations are populations with more mathematical and logic abilities, in comparison to emotional estrogenic populations.

    But as a result of being more logical, HighT populations may be more susceptible to logic-based “Brain Viruses.”

    The reason why Finnish society is not as fucked as AngloEnglish society, is because Finns have an extra few IQ points so they are able to pick out the ‘fun parts’ (i.e. free sex) of the brain virus and avoid the more negative aspects like immigration.

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 12:35 pm Stark

      Yeah, no.

      High estrogen populations – asians, jews.
      High testosterone populations – arabs, blacks.

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  55. on March 11, 2012 at 8:29 am Guillermo

    If I get this correct some feminine women pass their femininity or masculinity onto boys and some don’t?

    So if I want the most masculine sons possible which type of woman should I go for?

    [heartiste: a woman who is shaped like a sausage, with manhands, small tits, narrow hips, flat ass, manjaw, beady eyes, broad shoulders, muscular delts and thin lips.
    sounds like fun, don’t it?]

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 1:55 pm Anon

      Dear god, the description made my (normally gigantic of course) penis shrink near into disappearance.

      LikeLike


  56. on March 11, 2012 at 10:16 am Samuel

    TL, DR… summarize

    less is more

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  57. on March 11, 2012 at 10:42 am Brian

    I was once with a tall 6″ chick (Amazon Alpha). The only thing I remember about her hands; her digits were long and thin, though small compared to her size. I never got a look at her finger ratio. She did, however, have very big feet, which i noticed one time. She had taken off her shoes minutes after we entered her apartment. She was laying on the couch looking relaxed, stretched out, her hands behind her head. I sat on the other end, with a closeup view at her unusually. Large. Feet. She picked up on this quick and said she had large feet with an embarrassed tone in her voice. I reassured her that I thought her feet were nice.

    Everyone’s heard that joke that guys with big feet are “tall.” But what traits/behaviors does that correspond to in women or lawyer chicks?

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 2:21 pm SFG

      Men have big hands and feet. So she probably had high T.

      Of course, she could have been a tomboy or a geek. 2D:4D interacts with other personality traits as well. It’d be fun to see the Heartiste talk about this.

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      • on March 11, 2012 at 11:15 pm Brian

        She’s Brazilian from a well to do family (article on femme fatales matches her life story right down to her dad). More Tom-man than boy (Chateu knows what I mean). Nerdy, but doesn’t look it. She actually looks a lot like Maria from the movie elite troop….with a man jaw.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 5:15 pm Nigel Tufnel

      A six inch tall chick is no Amazon. Trust me, I know about these things.

      LikeLike


      • on March 11, 2012 at 10:26 pm Brian

        Hehe yeah I saw that typo right after I posted.

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  58. on March 11, 2012 at 1:10 pm Lara

    “Suicide rates are higher for men because there’s a war against masculinity”

    I’m guessing males have always been more prone to suicide. Girls, on the other hand, like to threaten to kill ourselves, but we rarely do it.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 1:29 pm John Norman Howard

      Girls are more prone to die from embarrassment.

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  59. on March 11, 2012 at 3:45 pm Mark

    I am the offspring of a fighter pilot and a 6’1″ female athlete and coach. I’m on the mild edge of the aspergie nerd spectrum (though my digit ratio is indeed low). WTF happened? I should have been the football captain.

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    • on March 11, 2012 at 9:59 pm (r)Evoluzione

      It’s possible your mom was on the pill, which changes a lot of things including the men she’s attracted to (compatibility sufferss), and it puts a lot of estrogen byproducts into her system that might stick around for a while. Also, maybe she ate a lot of canned goods (BPA source).

      Who knows? There’s a lot of variables. The important thing is, your ratio’s low. Get your ass to the gym, maximize your given hormonal profile, eat paleo, and you’ll be golden.

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  60. on March 11, 2012 at 7:55 pm Don

    Elle’s man leaves her for a younger model. Another cougar bites the dust….

    http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/celebrityheadlines/8432555/rehab-fears-for-elle-macpherson-following-split

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  61. on March 11, 2012 at 7:56 pm Laconophile

    If I look at my fingers with my palm facing me, my index finger is longer. But if I look at them with my palm facing away, my ring finger is longer.

    What does that mean?

    [heartiste: you are harvey two-face.]

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  62. on March 11, 2012 at 9:21 pm Riddick

    http://www.martijnwieling.nl/files/2d4d.pdf

    Another great study. Apparently feminine men are prone to jealous hissy fits.

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  63. on March 11, 2012 at 10:16 pm Capsaicin

    Bill introduced to regulate men’s reproductive health: Part of a trend, she likens the bill to men legislating ‘a woman’s womb.’

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/bill-introduced-to-regulate-mens-reproductive-health-1341547.html

    Excerpts:

    “Before getting a prescription for Viagra or other erectile dysfunction drugs, men would have to see a sex therapist, receive a cardiac stress test and get a notarized affidavit signed by a sexual partner affirming impotency, if state Sen. Nina Turner has her way.

    …

    Under Senate Bill 307, men taking the drugs would continue to be tested for heart problems, receive counseling about possible side effects and receive information about “pursuing celibacy as a viable lifestyle choice.”

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  64. on March 12, 2012 at 12:33 am James

    lol, feminists try to organize a sex strike, with predictably hilarious results. Some of the comments are downright brutal:

    https://www.facebook.com/events/268707003204718/

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 1:59 pm chi-town

      Good to see someone notice 99% of men being “properly socialized” will still lead to enough men to cause a population boom in the slums. A 20% slut rate with a 10% male hump on sight rate will be no different than a 1% hump on sight rate. Its about the unprotected sluts.

      “Women should always be the ones to finance a pregnancy and child. Sexual opportunities for a non-overweight fecund woman are effectively limitless. With men always eager to commit the act that leads to conception, it is up to the woman to avoid conception/sex until such a time as she wishes to embark on the experience of motherhood.”

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  65. on March 12, 2012 at 2:50 am viperprobot

    In his image, my ass.

    Do you really believe Genesis says our imperfect physical manifestation is in the image of God? Consider the context of this statement. The previous verse begins with “Let us make mankind in our image.” One part of “us/our” refers to God, who created our spiritual component. The other part refers to the earth, which gave rise to our physical component. There is no question mankind is part of the prolonged material state of change of the earth, and thus materially we are very much in the image of the earth. The inconsistency to which you allude does not exist.

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  66. on March 12, 2012 at 3:20 am Markku

    “When I go to gym and see my Finnish sisters naked in locker room, many have very lovely figures”

    What you’re seeing in your gym locker room is a non-representative sample. There are fewer overweight young women in Russia than in Finland. Young women in Russia tend to have less money at their disposal and more willingness to spend what they have on clothes.

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  67. on March 12, 2012 at 5:42 am finndistan

    At least I have found that “nice”, “gentle”, “caring”, “interested”, “human”, etc does not work.

    “Arrogant”, “aloof”, “Smug”, “asshole”, works wonders.

    With all populations of females.

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  68. on March 12, 2012 at 8:33 am GreenGangrene

    I am Finnish 25yo male and I can guarantee you that the atmosphere has dramatically changed here in the last decade or so. The “amerification” has really “worked” here. I don’t know where does that finnish-girls-dont-cheat -shit comes from, but watching the scene for the past ~7 years, I will conclude that Finnish girls are 85-90% sluts and the rest so ugly that nobody wants them. These girls just want to be banged by alphas, every weekend. As a girl, having around 20 ONS partners is already considered “just normal”. Disgusting I say. Just go to any bar in Helsinki central area. Also the anti-masculinity air is suffocating. And the cheating…? I know maybe two, three girls who HASN’T cheated on her boyfriend. And in total I know more or less a hundred girls (sluts).

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    • on March 13, 2012 at 5:10 am finndistan

      25 year old girl, talking about her father having a shotgun and selecting the men very carefully. Strongly claims she is “not that kind of girl” while accusing me of being a player, since I had some amount of confidence coupled with patience, as is indeed one of the slower girls I met. On a drunk night, she demands my number, I deflect and demand hers. Proudly: “16”. Funny thing is, she may be right in claiming she is slow. “May” is an understatement.

      While the anti masculinity is suffocating, I’d say the anti masculinity is especially reserved for the 90-95% men that do not make it to the top 5-10% of men. The Average Jukka (Finn Joe), and the Over Average Jukka are under a heavy burden of anti masculinity, while the top 5% is running around not anymore in masculinity but outright smudgeness and arrogance, coupled with a douchebag style masculinity, (that includes make up and plucked eyebrows, in the case of imported douchebags).

      And when you have the normal and attractive men put down so heavily, what you get is the top 5%, the douches, the imported enriching vibrants, and a few other select group not even needing to shoot the fish in the barrel.

      Here’s another:

      21 year old girl, her friend “You know she is so much fun. She has been with men from 13 countries”. 21 year old girl walks around like daddy’s girl from next door. By now she must be 26, so all bets are off.

      A 26 year old Latvian girl with whom I had chemistry with who was a slow one, about her 19 year old finnish roommate: “I don’t get it. She goes out few times in a week, we have men in the house at least once a week, she does not come home at least once a week, she does not remember the names, does not even ask, and she told me that she sleeps with a man when he buys beers”.. She stayed with her for few months and moved out.

      These are of course not all, I have knows 25 year old gorgeous church girls, and I have known genuinely nice girls who care for their man,

      But then I had more than the fingers on my hands, brides-to-be’s directly proposing me a fuck, not on their bachelor party, but on the night before their wedding.

      What is the worst that has happened in the past years though is that fucking an enriching vibrant has turned into a fashion.

      Shall write bout that this week sometime.

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  69. on March 12, 2012 at 9:37 am Andrea

    “In his image, my ass.”

    Exactly. Evolution is still in process. It never ends.

    How could it be that I actually agree with a statement on this blog?!!

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    • on March 12, 2012 at 1:31 pm John Norman Howard

      High praise, indeed, from Andrea Dweebkin.

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      • on March 14, 2012 at 9:11 am Andrea

        What a great insult. You must be a clever, clever man.

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      • on March 15, 2012 at 10:48 pm John Norman Howard

        And the fact that it hit the mark discerned means you’re a clever girl yourself.

        Now that we’ve been formally introduced, let’s see them tits.

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  70. on March 12, 2012 at 1:39 pm Andrew S.

    I’m 6’2, was a decent athlete, a little bit stronger than your average guy, can get women a little better than average. My ring finger is slightly longer than my index. It’s all coming together now.

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  71. on March 12, 2012 at 2:04 pm Testosteron « Yasers hörna

    […] …A correlate of maternal levels of testosterone and estrogen is waist:hip ratio (WHR). Women with low ratios have low testosterone and high estrogen, while women with high WHR have high testosterone and low estrogen [länk] […]

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  72. on March 12, 2012 at 4:57 pm Markku

    “Earlier Markku pointed out that Finnish women dress rather moderately which is true and they do it because they like comfort and practicality. However, if you were to dress like a Russian lady and go to a Finnish bar, it’s almost 100 % likeliness that you’ll get asked “how much?””

    Typical young women in Russia do not dress like streetwalkers in Finland. More often than their Finnish counterparts, they wear skirts instead of jeans, high heels instead of sneakers, and so on. There are, of course, there are more young women who go to such extremes that they would mistaken for prostitutes in Finland but they are not typical in Russia.

    Russian men in big cities tend to dress somewhat better than their Finnish counterparts, too. Urban Russians tend to have a more acute sense of what type of wear is appropriate for each situation. I remember James Kunstler once castigating American tourists for dressing like overgrown children. The same type of criticism is valid for a lot of Finns, too. You don’t see as many adults wearing tracksuits on the streets of our neighbouring countries unless they are jogging.

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  73. on March 12, 2012 at 8:37 pm Big Game Hunter

    Finn here, with lots of experience of other Nordic countries. Where to start on commenting all of this…

    First, I think the most important factors that shape(d) the Finnish relationship/sex scene & environment are:
    1. Finns are introverted, shy and not-social as fuck, in general. This is important, very important, and affects everything.
    2. conformist, equalist welfare society means you can go unemployed or marry a poor guy, and you won’t starve and you can still own your own tv and some alcohol to dull the miseries of your pathetic life with like the rest of humanity
    3. it’s a cliché, yes, but true: Finns, regardless of sex, are hardasses, or you might prefer “more masculine than some perceived average”. This is one of those places in the world where a woman will actually hit you, and it’s likely to actually hurt with some of them. Hit you with a fist, a broken or non-broken bottle of beer, a knife, anything close to hand.
    4. homogenous population: the nation is populated by whites, Finns with so far very few foreigners – although this is rapidly changing, something that some people just love and others hate so fucking much you can smell it all the way from Italy
    5. the culture, once conservative agrarian/farmland/countryside style culture of strong quiet men and strong quiet but motherly women, now moving towards what people call “more American” with more and more value given to such things as feminism, the ability to talk empty shit just to be polite to other people you barely know (ie. smalltalk) and career and financial achievements instead of family, and personal satisfaction in the style of Eat Pray Love instead of more traditional and perhaps useful values

    So, how’s it really like here?

    A LOT of especially young Finnish women are “sluts”, easily giving their sex up after some drinks in the bar, if you’re the right sorta guy. Having tons of one night stands is not unusual, and finding a virgin 20-year-old is difficult. They’re out there, but hard to spot, and just when you think that girl acts like one, you discover she fucked an entire ice hockey team last week, and swallowed every time. There’s practically no slut stigma, and Finnish men, or their majority, don’t seem to be bothered by the idea their woman has opened her legs for, say, 5 to 20 guys before them. Indeed, if you raise that subject, you’ll likely be called a somewhat strange, insecure guy, and told “the lake doesn’t wear out from rowing your little boat in it” or something. Guys marry sluts here.

    Quite a lot of Finns are so shy they can’t slut around as much as they’d probably like, deep inside. The whole, to Finns, ridiculous idea that Finns are faithful compared to others, comes from this. They’re so shy they don’t dare cheat, because they can’t approach anyone, and if someone should approach them, they hide quickly, blushing in secret. Yeah, pretty much that bad. There are, of course, really sweet truly shy girls with little true slut impulse in them, but aren’t there always exceptions. Still, because Finns are pretty masculine, there is some emphasis on “honor”, as in thinking cheating is for losers, which causes lots of breakups and divorces so she or he can jump to the next partner, in cases that would have lead to cuckold/mistress/secret lover type relationships while the marriage continues on in some other countries. But yeah, there’s plenty of cheating, too. Especially with the educated career woman with a more tender, betaish husband – the woman goes to find someone who doesn’t treat her equally, a “real man who makes her feel like a woman” and takes the lead, like the company boss.

    Because Finns are so shy, anti-social and introverted, direct approaches can work wonders on girls not used to being so approached (as said, this is largely the attraction of foreigners to some Finnish females), and showing balls enough to talk to strangers (women) and actually not looking and sounding like and idiot as your grasp in despair for words can easily impress women. Women, to avoid being bothered by strange men, will regularly tell them to fuck off, or use other rude words or gestures or shoves to get away from them, and if you have the balls to deal with that, you’re going somewhere: either her bed if you convince her your not a loser, or to see the police when she starts thinking you’re planning to rape her because you can’t seem to take a fucking no for an answer.

    Because Finnish women don’t need a provider to survive financially, and feminism is getting stronger by the day, being a hotshot rich guy isn’t so impressive here as in some other places, but if you’re really loaded, there’s always someone who’ll go for that, no matter where the hell you are. Just consider that the kinda women who in Finland would be impressed by your gold are probably exactly the kind you were wanting to avoid. The supposedly hottest women, beauty queens and such, will like a rich dude if he’s physically masculine or at least famous, but if he’s just rich but not atheletic or famous, his chances are worse than in most other places.

    Instead, what’s impressive is if you’re confident and know how to talk without being too aggressive (remember, the women are often shy, and if you go too quickly with your kino stuff, she’ll get the rapist alarm ringing in her head and hate you), if you look good and are muscled – and because Finns are tall, you should be too – and are tough and/or mysterious. The tough biker thing works as well here as in most places, I’d think. Just don’t get carried away: Finns are down-to-earth, and a lot of the Mystery style stuff of making yourself seem special and an international man of mystery will backfire by making you look fake or a showoff: remember, conformist equalist welfare societies don’t like showoffs who place themselves above others as “betters”.

    What really doesn’t work: being the polite nice guy feminists say you should be. You’ll be invisible. If you want to be noticed, make yourself noticed. Act unlike the other guys. Approach and talk, have something insightful to say, compared to “hey, you’re hot” “want a drink?” and so on, although even that stuff works better than the standard Finnish male operating procedure of sulking in the corner getting drunk, or once drunk enough, walking to her to try to speak only to fail to produce understandable words due to your drunken inebriation. Due to Finnish shyness, relationships start probably at least as often at work or school as in some bar during the weekend or Wednesday nights. If there’s one rule: DO NOT BE SHY, most everyone else is, and if you’re not, that’ll help you. Then the second rule would be: do NOT be too aggressive, because, remember, everyone else is shy, and will back away from too much, too fast. Unless they’re really slutty, in which case you just need to tell them the sex is available, and she’ll jump right in your lap and go for it.

    If Roosh ever gets here, he may find the experience dualistic. Some women will be mad for him, due to him looking vaguely Arabic (Finns are horrible at telling other people’s ethnicity in terms beyond “white”, “asian”, “african”, “probably an arab”, due to lack of experience beyond American tv & movies) and being active in approach and talkative, confident, etc. Some will avoid him like the plague because he looks Arabic, and will want nothing to do with him – increasing amounts of women have bad personal experience with said sort, and the rest are just healthily (or unhealthily) racist.

    Do Finnish women use betas as emotional tampons? Oh hell yes, they call those men their friends, but really they’re just a place that can be used as a dumping ground for her complaints and emotions, as well as a handy tool to have around for carrying heavy items or fixing the computer / iPhone.

    What’s there to summarize? Well, Finnish women aren’t as horrible as, say, Washington DC women sound like from the writings of American PUAs etc. They’re not as flaky, unpredictable, rude, entitled, or as stupid, it seems. But they’re not sweet feminine angels either, and game does definitely as hell work on them, or I’d be jacking off alone instead of finding myself actually having sex with pretty hot girls. With a Finnish woman, you’re likely to get someone who is
    a) white, and not absurdly tanned (and if she is tanned in the winter, she’s sure to be a total slut and/or working in some job with tight requirements on her appearance)
    b) somewhat shy at least,
    c) not talking all the fucking time,
    d) not always very showy or feminine with clothing or her other manner, being more guy-ish and bold in that sense, which is, yes, a weird contrast considering the afore-mentioned shyness,
    e) someone who will, due to her own nature instead of just cultural indoctrination of feminism, frequently challenge you to a duel to see who wears the pants in your relationship, and will boss you around as mercilessly as any drill sergeant if you let her, and sometimes even if you don’t
    f) touched by American culture, porn and all, to the length that she likely won’t be utterly horrified and cross herself at the thought of oral, anal and whatever other delightful deviations you may choose to conjure up in your mind
    g) still more likely to really want a husband and family and kids et all, if she can find someone that suits her heart’s fancy, instead of preferring to be single forever, enjoying “freely” every night another man

    … Meh, I could go on, but it’s a difficult subject to describe in brief, and I get the feeling I’m talking out of my ass due to not being very alpha (at all). But perhaps it’s worth something.

    If our host of Heartiste ever does come around Finland, you should let us know in advance in your blog. I’ll buy you a beer. A large one! 😉

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    • on March 13, 2012 at 3:39 pm (r)Evoluzione

      Great post from a fellow Big Game hunter.

      A question for you: what’s your take on the small interpersonal space requirements and/or propensity for Finnish women to get really close to someone they’re talking with?

      In undergraduate school, I met several Finnish women here on exchange. They would get inches from my face when talking. At the time I took it as an IOI, but then later failed to close the deal. (Not surprising, this was in my intermittent beta/alpha days.) Later I observed that these Finnish girls stood close to whomever they talked with, though not as close as they did to males. In general, they seemed to stand a lot closer to anyone they talked with than any Americans. I called out one girl on it, and she laughed, and said it was just the Finnish way.

      I’d say, right off the top of my head, it indicates a propensity for intimacy, and a general passion for, and comfort with, physicality.

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      • on March 16, 2012 at 4:19 am Big Game Hunter

        I’d say you’re spot on correct about the comfort and passion for physicality. Finns are physical, that’s certainly true. That manifests itself in so many ways, from the way people that don’t know each other well at all will strip naked and go to the sauna together, to the way Finnish women are much more likely to consider sex “just sex” than women from some other cultures, or how Finnish women don’t avoid physical work like carrying heavy stuff or putting together their new Ikea bookshelf nearly as much as is the norm in many other cultures.

        But then on the other hand Finns are shy, as we know. Normally, a Finn will avoid getting physically close to strangers, even when talking. You put two Finns in the bus, the saying around here goes, and they’ll never go and sit next to each other if they can avoid it. But when a Finn is comfortable around you and does not actively dislike you, he or especially she may get very close, physically, especially when talking. That’s a good sign, you could say: they’re no longer in their normal Finnish avoiding social contact mode of thinking. It doesn’t necessarily mean any more than that, though. The kind of Finn that would go be an exchange student in America is likely to be the more extroverted sort of Finn, and these will be especially likely to be bold, physically too, but even more so socially. They’ll like you Americans for seeming more social and open and friendly than the cold and distant average Finn, and they’ll enjoy talking with you, and they’ll show that by getting very close. That’s kind of a like a Finnish “you’re good people” signal. And on the other hand, if a Finn really will not get close, even when talking, then there’s something wrong. Maybe they just don’t want to talk, or have their mind elsewhere, or maybe they dislike whoever is around, or maybe they just smell. Finns are notoriously unsubtle, which I rather like.

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    • on March 13, 2012 at 3:52 pm Lara

      I know a Finnish American woman. She is very kind and feminine, but is also surprisingly tough, physically. She has also aged very well.

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    • on March 13, 2012 at 4:11 pm Aspie Nerd

      Very interesting, and I can believe this because it corresponds to my (very limited) experience of the Finnish character. I must say that the idea of being attacked by a woman with a knife or broken bottle is a bit unsettling. I hope it never happened to you.
      From my slightly more extensive experience of women from the US Northeast, I also agree that life is probably easier in Finland. (Though that is not saying much.)
      Maybe you can say at least a few words about the rest of Norden, for comparison?

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      • on March 16, 2012 at 4:45 am Big Game Hunter

        I have had a few cases where I had to deal with a woman berserking around with a broken bottle. Drunken Finns are a little unruly often, heh. Came out of those okay, though, so so far so good. Finnish nightlife can be a bit violent in one sense. On the other, it does mostly lack the American style threats of gang violence and brutal, armed street crime (especially with firearms) targeting random people for their money or belongings. Or, at least, Finland used to lack such crime, but in some parts of the country we’re starting to get some of that, thanks to the wonders of multiculture and immigration from the kind of countries that we really shouldn’t take immigrants from.

        Compared to Sweden or Norway, for example, Finland is more different than one might expect. The language barrier is there between Finland and the rest of the Nordic countries, and there’s a cultural barrier as well. Norway, Sweden – old monarchies. Finland – young republic. Where a Swede would be open and talkative and somewhat snobbish perhaps, a Finn would be closed and quiet and more likely to be modest in manner and dress. One might say Finns are less sophisticated, less European, less international, overall, less social. Finnish women are less feminine in dress, although the difference is not huge, and somewhat less feminine in personality as well. Finland, while a Nordic country with a fairly conformist society, social security and all, allows more freedom of opinion than at least Sweden. You can say stuff in Finland that would never fly in Sweden, although as the PC nazis strive for ever more power, the difference seems likely to decrease and perhaps even disappear. I’d say, however, that at core Finns are rather more independent and rebellious thinkers than their other Nordic cousins, due to probably many other things than just the historical difference between an insignificant small country and a notable power on the European theater of economy and warfare.

        But perhaps the simplest way to describe the differences is to point out that Finns frequently point out how Swedes are gay. Jokes are jokes, of course, and everyone makes fun of their neighbours, but there’s a truth in there. If Finns are more of the John Wayne style of quiet, physical and manly, then Swedes are definitely more of the Adam Lambert style of agreeable, social and feminine. Or so we Finns like to think.

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      • on March 16, 2012 at 4:09 pm Aspie Nerd

        Sorry, I see that I did not make it clear that I was interested specifically in differences between women from other Nordic countries.
        My experience in Denmark is that women tend to cluster on the opposite ends of the masculinity-femininity spectrum: there is a loud minority of super-assertive, loud, opinionated women (whom Roosh seems to regularly hit on); and a quiet majority of sub-assertive, shy or naively cheerful women with no strong opinions. The latter is infinitely preferable to the former, but that is not saying much for them.
        My more limited experience of Finnish women is similar, except that (a) I am not sure which class is the majority, given the small sample; and (b) the super-assertive women are not loud, and keep their opinions to themselves: they are the strong, silent type. They can hold their own in intelligent conversation, if you get to that stage.
        My guess is that in Sweden and Norway there are more women who are both feminine and self confident, but since I could not tolerate the socialism and PC there, I ask only out of curiosity.

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    • on March 13, 2012 at 5:05 pm beta_plus

      Finland sounds a lot like Roosh’s take on Iceland. Maybe Sweden and Norway are the same way. I wonder what makes Denmark so unpleasant.

      LikeLike


    • on March 14, 2012 at 4:25 am finndistan

      By far the best analysis that I have read about Finland’s marketplace. And totally true.

      LikeLike


  74. on March 12, 2012 at 8:59 pm Lewis F

    Here is a waist to hip ratio of various samples across the world. Playboy centerfolds, .68

    http://www.anthro.utah.edu/PDFs/cashdan/whr.pdf

    LikeLike


    • on March 13, 2012 at 3:35 pm (r)Evoluzione

      Thanks for posting up this data.

      LikeLike


  75. on March 12, 2012 at 11:41 pm Puebloman

    Very interesting post. There is another complementary hypothesis – in cultures where there has been oppression – viz.: Poland, Communists, National Socialists, invasion – Hitler and Stalin – Auschwitz and Katyn Forest, etc. – the meek do inherit the Earth.

    Finland was part of the Axis and the Finns defeated or drew with the Russian Communists – losing territory but not being occupied, albeit there was “Finlandization” – as we used to call it – under President Kekkonen after the Second World War. [Do not forget that the Russian Communists sided with Hitler until it suited them.]

    LikeLike


  76. on March 14, 2012 at 11:58 am LS

    Another Finn here. I agree with Big Game Hunter, well said.

    Altough women like Alphas, there is one factor that seems to be varying in different countries. That is women’s preference of magnitude of assholeness:

    asshole (-10) |________0________| nice guy (+10)

    Obviously, US is number one on left side with, say, -6
    Finland is something like 0
    Denmark, according to Roosh V, I would say +3

    Here in Finland, I still haven’t used a single neg. And my usual openers are very basic: “Hi” & “Evening”.

    It’s somewhat easy to game here. My competition is generally lame. Approach Anxiety is running wild and Omega:Beta ratio is seems relatively high. White Knighting is sometimes funny. I was coming out of bar with a girl heading for her place for close. On the way we stopped for pizza/kebab place for eating pizza. It was full of Omega White Knights, and that girl was only girl there. She was on the desk ordering pizza and I was next to her. And then unknown White Knight comes to me and says: “A Gentleman should pay her pizza.” I thought WTF? Obviously, I didn’t pay it and I didn’t say anything to him. When we where eating everyone there was watching us and I could almost hear their thoughts: “Why is she with a guy like HIM?”

    And indeed, some of the girls here are… erhm… unchaste. A case of mine. I was sitting in a bar gaming a girl who was sitting next to me. She had her friends around her. I was aiming at Role Reversal (I call it Frame Switch) and succeeded with it. Now things changed quickly. Her boyfriend called her. She spoke with her boyfriend few minutes. She hanged the phone, turned to me and asked: “What’s your favorite position?”

    Which brings to question: What is the strongest IOI you can get from a girl in a bar?

    Answer: She suddenly stucks her hand to my pants. She can get her hand only half-way. She then asks: “Could you loosen your belt?” There was like ten people there within three meter radius.

    —-

    In closing, very special thanks for Heartiste (and Roosh V) for invaluable advice that turned me from Beta/Omega to lesser Alpha. I still need to improve my game. And that’s what I’m trying to do.

    If you are coming to Finland I also buy you a large beer.

    LikeLike


  77. on March 15, 2012 at 3:45 am Bwana Simba

    One thing I’d like to point out is, even with the ethnicity’s that are more feminine, all bets are still off when they come over to America/ become Americanized. I know quite a few Polish girls here in college in America, and they are as slutty as their American sisters but have a mask of sweet femininity to cover it up. They can cook, clean and look pretty to boot, but they are still American girls at heart and will destroy you if they can. They have turned their “softness” into a seductive skill, and I actually knew one girl who nearly succeeded in completely neutering a local well known player at my college (he cheated on her at one point, but she succeeded in getting him to beg for forgiveness… literally, beg for forgiveness as he despite his experience was fooled into thinking she was different). Polish girls here in America have a soft, feminine mask over their American harpy mindset that makes them far more “dangerous” than the girls you can easily pick out as anti-feminine traits but pretty to look at sluts.

    LikeLike


  78. on March 15, 2012 at 5:19 am Markku

    “[Do not forget that the Russian Communists sided with Hitler until it suited them.]”

    You mean as long as it suited them (Russian Communists)?

    There is a hypothesis that Stalin inteded to use Hitler as a battering ram for the purpose of conquering Europe. Firstly, Stalin could’ve help keep Hitler out of power by telling German communists to form a government with the Social Democrats but he never did. Secondly, Stalin refused to ally with the West to keep Hitler in check but made a pact with Hitler instead. The splitting of Poland and the USSR moving in to occupy Bessarabia meant that buffer zones between the USSR and German were removed. Red Army was very dangerously close to vital German oil sources in Romania.

    When Germany kept its part of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact by invading Poland on 1.9. 1939 Stalin delayed fulfilling his part by 17 days citing “technical problems” as an excuse. As a result, world press condemned Hitler and only Hitler for expansionism. To his dismay and to the satisfaction of Stalin, Hitler was now alone at war against France and Britain. During Hitler’s war on the Allied, Stalin sold Hitler oil and other vital raw materials sparing no effort to keep the German war maching running smoothly. The speedy collapse of France in the summer of 1940 was a huge surprise to everyone. Even the German planners of that campaign considered it a gamble. Stalin did not get the WW I style great war of attrition in Western Europe he had been hoping for.

    Since the 1930s, the Soviet Union had been massively building up its military forces. In 1941, the Soviet Union had more tanks than the rest of the world put together. Also, they were heavier and outgunned existing German tanks. The Soviet Union was scraping the bottom of the barrel to finance the military buildup. There was a manufactured famine in the Ukraine in 1932-1933. Estimates of the number of dead vary between 2.4 and 7.5 million Ukrainian peasants (see Holodomor on Wikipedia). Grain was confiscated and sold in exhange for foreign currency. The USA and other Western powers were busy selling Uncle Joe precision machining tools, licences to manufacture Western design trucks, engines and other key technologies.

    Despite all efforts to aid and abet Hitler, Stalin did obviously not want end up at war against Western powers on Hitler’s side. In early March 1940 when Finnish Army was close to collapse, Stalin agreed to a negotiated peace agreement not involving Finland’s surrender. He’d been getting intelligence from Paris and London, that France and Britain were planning on sending military aid to Finland and bombing Baku where about 80% of Soviet crude oil was produced at the time. American experts had told
    Stalin that if the oil soaked terrain in Baku were bombed with incendiary bombs merely putting out the fires would take months. he British would be able to do this from their bases in Iraq via Iran.

    During the first weeks after Germany launched operation Barbarossa, Red Army was in complete chaos as if it hadn’t prepared for deep defence on its own territory at all. The Germans found munitions unloaded from trains under open sky, airfields at a minimum distance from the border and trainloads of topographical maps of Western Poland and Germany. The rapid German advance slowed down only in September 1941. The battle of Kiev left 600,000 Soviet POWs in German custody. It has been estimated that the Soviet Union would’ve invaded Germany sometime in July 1941.

    Stalin’s plan did not work because France collapsed quickly leaving Germany free to deal with the Soviet Union. But it could’ve worked. Sufficiently weakened by a war of attrition, continental Europe could’ve fallen in Stalin’s hands. Cut off from Romanian oil, the German war machine would have been in an extremely difficult position in 1941. (Synthetic fuel production from coal on an industrial scale begun only later.)

    This is not written in defence of the Nazis. Even the fact that the Nazis were criminals of the worst kind would’ve worked in Stalin’s favor: Red Army would have been hailed as a savior and liberator by the peoples of Europe.

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    • on March 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm The One Reason

      1 First, an excellent post on the “Finnish issue” by the BGH.

      2 Without going deeper into the nature of the Soviet deployment on the eve of the Barbarossa (pre-offensive or merely unpreparedly and incompetently dragged too far into the occupied territories along the new frontier, just waiting to be encircled), one irony of the German dependence on the Ploesti oil in 1941 was the action taken earlier that year. The Marita offensive to the Balkans to shore up the soft underbelly and safeguard the Romanian oil against instability (from the Germ point of view) of an anti-Axis Jugoslavia and the Italian disaster against the Greeks of course eventually led to an operational time of month less on the Eastern front than originally envisaged. And as the Caucasian Maykop oil was not secured in any strategically meaningful quantity either, the pre-emptive strategic success in the Balkans came to roost in the event of the Russian rosputitsa, the “mud season”. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch, too.

      3 The TV series Dallas has just started its umpteenth re-run on the Finnish cable and doggone, does tha’ good ol’ boy JR Ewing have some darn strong asshole game to the max, especially regardin’ the poor wifey. Schucks and blimey! And I didn’t remember what a tasty morsel Vic Principal was back in those days. Reminds so much of one woman working at the office…

      LikeLike


  79. on March 16, 2012 at 3:41 pm Aspie Nerd

    There is something I forgot to say about Finnish women: if you marry one, and she decides to move back to Finland with her lesbian lover, taking your kids with her, and then dies from drunkenness (admittedly, 4 IFs), then there is a good chance that a Finnish court will grant custody of your kids to the lesbian lover.

    This is what happened to an Englishman living in Switzerland, by the name of Eric Comet. I tried to find a link, but the best that I found is this:
    http://www.kolumbus.fi/antti.heiskala/the-finnish-FALSIFICATION-of-the-convention-on-the-rights-of-the-child.html

    LikeLike


  80. on March 31, 2012 at 5:26 pm jj

    I ran across a digit ratio app that just came out in the app store called Trait Test. It is really cool and accurate and has a lot of different results.

    LikeLike


  81. on May 8, 2012 at 6:59 pm Rasrelaterade testosteronskillnader « Yasers hörna

    […] I therefore predict, based on the above ethnic comparison graph, that should Roosh go to Finland, he will have to run some seriously hardcore push-pull alpha cad game on the local Finnish women [länk] […]

    LikeLike



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