Do women engage in the female version of pump and dump? A reader describes:
I learned something new: the pity date. It’s when the girl relents and goes out with a guy she has no attraction for. It’s the female version of pump and dump. Alphas go out with girls they don’t care for, but at least get sex out of it. There’s no sex on a pity date.
I’ve known plenty of women who went on dates with guys they never seriously entertained as sexual prospects. You pick up lots of insight into the female condition when you become part of their in-group, either through massive social proof or long-term dating of one of their friends. And, yes, women do the equivalent of the male pump and dump; they will date “practice men” for their nonsexual attention, just like they will string along beta orbiters for their emotional support. Women who date unwitting suckers and have no intention of banging them — call it ‘chump a hump’, or ‘stroke a dope’ — are typically women who haven’t dated in a long while, are horribly narcissistic, and need a man to dote on them. Most women at most times, though, won’t date men under false pretenses. There’s too much risk to a woman, both in lost time and unpredictable male reaction, to make that kind of investment with no promise of romantic fulfillment.
***
A reader wonders about game saturation.
Will playing the White-Knight ever become optimum strategy with women?
Consider that the concepts of Game/Being a cocky jerk are pretty well known among most healthy 20-35 year old guys; will the ‘edge’ that Game theoretically provides be eroded over time?My purpose in life is to trade the financial markets and parley a small amount of money in to a fortune. When a given strategy is employed by the masses, any edge that it may once have provided is destroyed… running counter to the crowd might actually present the greatest opportunity.
White knighting is not a totally hopeless beta male strategy. Some tomboys and fully inculcated feminists appreciate it and will reward these men with the honor of licking their clits. A woman who has been dumped by one too many asshole boyfriends will sometimes veer wildly into the arms of a heavily emoting mangina and reward his months of “being there for her” with a gentle moment of anhedonic intimacy, which quickly reminds her how much she misses the less gallant ministrations of jerks. And of course, women past their primes or never in their primes — fugs, fatties, cougars, single moms — who can’t get a sexy man to commit to them to save their lives, will respond to their limited sexual marketplace options by opening up to the possibilities of dating herbly betas. This is why 35 year old tubbos are the most insistent about not dating jerks; they are the women least able to secure a jerk’s attention.
As far as game losing its theoretical edge, it won’t happen. Sure, a few benumbed routines or negs which have made the rounds will occasionally incite backlash from a hottie, but the theory and general strategy of game will never get old, much the same way a pretty face, perky tits, and firm, round ass will never get old with men. When innate, largely immutable sexual desire is properly satisfied, it never seeks inferior means of satisfaction.
***
This reader wants to know the limitations of vulnerability game.
I was a shy, nerdy kid who got picked on in junior high. I’m 33 now and am not carrying any baggage from those days, but would you tell a woman you were dating about your nerdy past, even if you’re over it?
On one hand, I would think that bringing it up and joking about it demonstrates confidence she would find attractive. But a lot of women spend their lives endlessly recreating their teenage dramas, and nobody wants to think they got stuck with the class geek. Thoughts?
If I were a guy with a nerdy past, I would bring it up only if there was an opportunity to capitalize on it, such as the scenario where easing a girl’s insecurity about my unattainability were an issue. To be honest, the best game resides in talking about (or acting in) the present and the future. Discussions about the past tend to get bogged down in beta sentimentality and quickly become boring for the girl since she wasn’t there with you when all those things happened.
Comfort building does normally require some talk about your past, and verbally demonstrating higher value through stories is tough without resorting to past experiences. A good way to contextualize your nerdy past to maximize its attractiveness potential is to frame it so that you are a worldly, sexually experienced adult man who fondly recalls his clumsy puppy crushes and how little you knew about women then that you know now:
“It’s funny, but even though I know so much about love now, there was a time when I had no wisdom about women. I was kind of nerdy and would have these awkward puppy crushes on the beautiful popular girls — while totally ignoring all the nerd girls who liked me! — and bravely go up to them saying the stupidest things. A part of me misses that time of life when I was innocent and naive. Now I know too much.” [HEAVY SIGH]
I would avoid talking at all about the bullies who picked on you in high school. That’s just own-goal DLV, man. No need to go down that road.
***
Help is on the way!
Any techniques or maneuvers that will allow me to pull or bag some cougars/milfs? im clueless as to if the general rules of game apply when trying to get with women that are atleast 10 years older than me. Im 21 by the way.
Yes. Show up.
Hahahaha! I keel myself!
What’s that, you say? That’s not the answer you were looking for? Ok. A more serious reply.
Women generally don’t like to date younger men, although the more romantically miserable of them do occasionally entertain the idea of fucking them. Women are wired to desire male status, and older male age is one component of that status. However, a certain type of highly-charged, libidinous, high T cougar wholly in love with her former glory will relish the deflowering of a younger man. As Ben Franklin admonished a younger male acquaintance: “and lastly, they are so grateful!”
So, some ground rules.
1. Be confident. Contrary to popular perception, an older woman does not want to feel like a mother hand-holding a stuttering dweeb. She wants to be desired and pursued by a horny man.
2. Run the same game on older women as you do on younger women (with one minor exception). A woman’s sexuality doesn’t radically change with the advent of years. Does a man’s penis change with years to bestir for ugly women? No.
3. Realize that older women, no matter how much they protest, subconsciously know that their value has diminished. This makes them less judgmental of your errors and more open to less-than-ideal romantic possibilities. Constantly remind yourself of this and you will have no trouble keeping your confidence high around them.
4. The one exception is that older women are less tolerant of asshole game, inconsiderate behavior, or player vibes. Not because they don’t desire these things in men, but because they know that such men are almost unattainable for them and least likely to commit in any form to them. As a woman ages, she tends to become more accepting of beta male behavior. Buy an older woman a drink and, unlike her younger competition, she just might reward you with her… ahem… vigorously hewn vulva.
5. Under no circumstances should you bring up the age difference. Act like it means nothing to you. If she brings it up, reframe. Tell her she’s actually a bit young compared to the women you normally see. She’ll know it’s a lie but she’ll eat it up nonetheless. Lie to me, I promise I’ll believe…
***
Picking up the hostess with the mostess.
I have been reading the blog for awhile now and firmly believe it’s the best out there. Great work!
There is a situation at a restaurant near my house that is of concern. This restaurant is within walking distance of my house, so my roommates and I frequent often. I recently met at hostess/drink running girl. The first time I met her (as she was walking by with drinks), she smiled, I immediately opened her, we had nice/short platonic conversation. She had to go run drinks out (she said she would be right back) but I wasn’t going to stay and wait so that was that.
A week later we are back in the restaurant and she is working the hostess stand. I go up (pretending to forget her name) and start another conversation. This one is longer and more personal. She is asking me a lot of personal questions. The conversation ends when a customer comes up and asks for a ‘to go order.’ She again says that she will be back, I again leave.
2 weeks later we are back at the same restaurant eating dinner (we are known regulars there, so I am stalking). She brings out our drinks to the table and says hi. We finish up eating, pay the bill and begin exiting. I told my friend to meet me outside. I went up the girl and told her:
Me: ‘I want to see you outside of this place’
Her: ‘I have a boyfriend’
Me: ‘I have a girlfriend’
Her: ‘I’ll be right back’ (at this point, I am pretty frustrated with her flightiness but I’ll wait for a sec since I see that she is delivering drinks and will be right back)She straight back over.
Me: ‘You cant have friends?’
Her: ‘Keep coming in and we will see what happens’That was it. Haven’t been back in since. I don’t want to orbit this girl but I definitely know that she is interested, boyfriend or not. I cant really avoid the place because they have great food/drinks and my roommates always want to go. I know getting familiar with the help at restaurants is the way to go (I’ve been successful in the past) but I am sorta unsure with this one. Any advice would be much appreciated.
I like the boldness of your final push and the reframe of her BF aversion, but I think there was too much platonic chit chat on previous days you talked to her, and the boldness might have come across incongruent to her, like a last ditch effort when all else has failed. Your game here comes perilously close to “Surprise! I have a penis!” anti-game.
Leaving aside for the moment that she actually has a boyfriend (a claim that is either belied when she titillated you with her suggestion to “keep coming in and we’ll see what happens”, or evidence of her poor, cockteaser character), I think she has put you in a spot where every time you go back you will be perceived as dancing to her tune. Not the stuff great seductions are made of.
My advice to you would be to ignore her the next time you’re in her restaurant. She sounds like the type of girl who likes to flirt with men and fill them with hope. To neutralize that, make her hamster go warp speed. Go out of your way to flirt with another girl or another waitress so that she sees it. Bring a date there, or a female friend willing to act as your pivot.
If you wish to be more direct than that, you could attempt to reengage her on terms more favorable to a sexual outcome. “I’m afraid I have to take back my offer. My mom said I’m not allowed to date waitresses.”
Of course, she really could be down to fuck, but I’d only be able to know if that’s the case for sure by observing her body language as she’s interacting with you.
Having recently been in the position of the last guy, I absolutely agree with Heartiste’s advice. Hard though it maybe, returning to the same place is bound to be perceived as a form of desparation – and it is hard to keep ones eyes off a woman one fancies especially where you can sense she is keen too. Stay away, make her puzzle.
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I would say walk in with a hot girl you’re banging.
Pre-selection and jealousy take over.
As a bonus, make a few demands on the hostess. “Oh, we don’t like this seat, let’s get something by the window.” “This silverware is dirty, could you get us some more.”
And when waiting for a seat (if it’s crowded), whisper a joke in your date’s ear while looking at the hostess. Her laughter will set off every jealous and sexual instinct the hostess has.
And be neutral to the hostess. Don’t say, “Hi! How are you?” Treat her as you would an unattractive or male host: as a temporary servant. Pleasant but robotic.
Win-win.
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1. Social proof is a good strategy for him. Have her see him with a hot date. Have the hot date see him with the hot hostess. It’ll work both ways on both chicks.
However, the real question is: How socially skilled is he to be able to pull off such a strategy or any other advice given to him?
I think that his skill level is lacking. His previous convos with her don’t stand out at all… mere typical customer chit-chat. Platonic and boring. That’s not enough to pique any hot chick’s interest, but he thinks that’s enough to ask her out.
2. “Any techniques or maneuvers that will allow me to pull or bag some cougars/milfs? im clueless as to if the general rules of game apply when trying to get with women that are atleast 10 years older than me. Im 21 by the way.”
Those 31 year olds will be chasing older men with better game than you. If you can’t hack it with 21 year old girls who have no defense to game, you won’t hack it with with 31 year olds.
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With MILFs… be mature and want to fuck (she does).
“Give me an older woman every time, every time.
Oh, they won’t yell and they won’t tell
And their grateful as hell
So give me and older woman every time.”
–Benny Hill
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Better yet, don’t think that women who make money by flirting with every guy who crosses their path are doing anything other than trying to make a quick buck off of you. Ignore the pro cock teases and find women who aren’t twunts.
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The only time I’m borderline rude (+BACKTURN) to women who flirt with me is when they’re trying to sell me something. It’s my way of getting across to them that they’re fake.
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A lot has been written here and other PUA sites about the “I’ve got a boyfriend”.
My personal favorite response to this is: “So? and reframe…”
The instant “I have a girlfriend” response seems lame and try-hard.
It’s still talking about her boyfriend rather than talking about whatever he wants.
Also walking in with a hot girl would be the strategy for a social-circle situation.
For a restaurant, it will only kill any chances of future hook-ups with the waitress or the hot chick he brings in.
This is the nuclear option to put her in her place, not game her into changing her attitude to getting her to open up to you or respond to your game.
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Remember Tawana Brawley. Remember Richard Jewell.
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As a man who has had quite a bit of success over the years seducing female bartenders, take Heartiste’s advice – there’s nothing you can do for the time being to recover this. Hit the ignore button, but be casual about it. Don’t make it come off like you’re being bitter. A ‘how’s it going’ will suffice next time you see her. Try to avoid the place for as long as you can, and next time you’re there with a group, it’ll be easier to accomplish this and make it plausible.
Any bartender I’ve ever seduced I used the ignore button, then talked to them like they are a fella. Then ignore. Then joke. Then ignore. Avoid any serious talk. Ignore, etc. This especially works if she’s nice looking as every schmuck in the place will be unashamedly throwing themselves at her. I’ve even used walking out on a tab as a part of my game. Often it takes several weeks and even months to get a waitress/hostess/bartender. Always a good back burner project though.
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“Always a good back burner project though.”
Yep.
Service industry is tough, especially when you’re a regular.
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Whorefinder is right. Walk in with the hottiest girl your banging. She’s pick up on the sexual vibe. It’ll make her jealous and hot!
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I’ve tried that tactic, but it never worked for me.
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“Women are wired to desire male status, and older male age is one component of that status. ”
I would disagree with this. Older men are high status for Old women, but so are younger men. If she gets a young 20-25 good looking boy, it’s a status symbol. It shows that she still “has it” Plus she can brag to her friends about getting a young stud which is definitely a sign of status.
[heartiste: not based on what i see, which is that cougars who are getting humped by younger horndogs seeking a convenient hole feel ashamed of parading their lovers in public (and vice versa). older women really do fear that mockery, which is why they desperately clung to the demi/ashton couple to validate their secretive lifestyles. it’s no status symbol for an older woman to service a young man because horny young men will stick their dicks in just about anything for relief. otoh, it is a status symbol for an older woman to get commitment from an even older alpha male, because it is so much harder to accomplish.]
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Talking about a nerdy past will unavoidably cost some alpha points in her chickbrain’s calculus.
Why not just lie, or at least sugar coating? Pretend that you weren’t really interested in dating, and were focused on your studies and other boyish quests.
Women, being mildly asexual by nature, won’t have a hard time understanding that. And they are more prone to lap up the bullshit about growing up and “finding your own way”.
You will come off as a real man who has found his purpose in life instead of a reformed beta.
Learn to be a professional liar. In dating, there’s no place for unalterated truth. Women have learned that in their mothers’ wombs.
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Just talk about HER nerdy past. It’s good for rapport.
ALL chicks feel like they didn’t fit in during high school or were misunderstood or underappreciated. Even the hot ones.
Just do a cold read about how she’s different, that you can tell no one really sees the real her, how she’s misunderstood, etc. etc. BAM. Makeout. It’s on.
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Maybe getting chicks to talk about Harry Potter or Twilight might be a good opener?
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Maybe try and get her to talk about like Harry Potter or Twilight. Nerdy stuff that chicks like. Might be a good opener.
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“Talking about a nerdy past will unavoidably cost some alpha points in her chickbrain’s calculus.”
Whoo baby, you got *that* right. I would advise any man reading this to stow that patter for now. Even if you’ve got a strong talent for humor, it’s best to approach that shit CAREFULLY. My God, when I think back to the Woody Allen/Lloyd Dobler shtick I used to use on the chicks, it makes me want to hide under my bed and never come out again. Yeah, they thought I was funny and adorable, but I’ll be damned if I ever saw an actual labia majora.
I’ve also bombed with the opposite approach, i.e., talking-about-my-totally-cool-past. For instance, I used to play in a pretty cool band when I was in my 20’s. Really cool Joy Division/Gary Numan/Visage/early New Order kind of stuff (my synth was a Sequential Circuits Prophet-5, for those interested in vintage synths. Still have it. I love it) . I’ve got a few old pics of us playing shows, and we looked COOL, dammit. And you better believe I’ve chatted that shit up with the babes throughout the years… only to discover that I was, in reality, just digging my own grave. I was blatently demonstrating how desperate I was for female approval, and by golly it was gross.
I think Anon’s advice to get her to talk about HER nerdy past is spot on.
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it’s all in how you present it. if you go on and on about being in a band, she’ll think you’re trying too hard. on the other hand, if you mention it casually in passing, for example in relation to something she’s saying, her curiosity will be piqued. but even if she presses you about it, don’t say too much – keep her mostly in the dark and make her earn the privilege of looking through that window into your cool past.
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I alterate the truth daily. Works for me.
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It will be a very fucking long time before running White Knight game becomes “counter to the crowd”.
Try making fun of a girl around a group of average guys, you’ll know what I speak of.
And it’s funny you talk about cougs today. Was recently forced to talk to a coug (friend of a friend), who while still good looking, has definitely entered that “no teasing” zone in her dried up life.
Not only was she hitting me with a barrage of very cougarlike interview questions (you know what I speak of, talking to single cougs is like getting put on the stand), but she couldn’t handle a single ounce of teasing or reframe, cutting me off and getting visibly angry when I didn’t respond like a nice little boy.
Cougs are no fun
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on the Zimmerman story, I find it funny and ironic you said to be the skittles man, not the flowers guy. That was the first thing I thought about when I learned the kid went to get skittles (maybe to give them to his GF) lol. I guess the Chateau can’t be 100% right all the time, just most of the time.
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Newsflash, Zimmerman is not a chick.
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newsflash anonymous jackass, Trayvon Martin didn’t go out to get Skittles for his eventually murderer. He got them for himself and/or his GF.
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I would disagree with this. Older men are high status for Old women, but so are younger men
Just like Ashton Kutcher remained with Demi Moore for as long as it took for his fame to be greater than hers, and for his own personal fame to compensate the freakiness of his “romance” with Demi.
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Your game here comes perilously close to “Surprise! I have a penis!” anti-game
LOL
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All around solid post.
Can be hard to judge restaurant chicks. Places like Hooters are an obvious example but even family oriented restaurants can be filled with young waitresses who ply a sort of diluted stripper game. They know flirting == tips and it will become their default mode.
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So true, Fletch. Lots of guys actually take this flirting as serious interest. Personally, I like to use a lot of negs in these types of situations. One hot server, who was engaged, worked at a place I frequented. Among other things, she called all her male customers ‘my dear’. Other guys might get excited about that, or simply ignore it.. me? Early on, after a couple ‘my dears’ I replied with “I’m not your dear.” Although it wasn’t going anywhere, I still got a damn good reaction.
A couple more examples of restaurant negs I use…
Server: “How was everything?”
Me: (clean, empty plate) “It was so horrible I had to get it out of my sight as fast as possible.” (smile)
Or, if I’m a known regular: “It was just terrible. I’m never coming back here.” (Smile, 2 days later I’m back…)
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I worked in restaurants when I was younger, and the girls are trained to flirt for tips. Some of them are very good at it. They flirt to keep the guys coming in and the money flowing, but generally there is no romantic interest. As a rule of thumb if your waitress or hostess is flirting with you, she’s in “work mode” and basically sees you as a walking wallet. It’s tiring work, she gets hit on a million times a day, and it’s easy to go into auto-pilot if she’s good at her job. It takes good game and the promise of an escape or something special to break her out of that frame.
It doesn’t sound like you’ve done any of that with her. The tell was when she said “‘Keep coming in and we will see what happens.” That is a polite rejection – she considers you a good customer and doesn’t want to lose your business, but she has no interest in taking you up on your offer.
My advice would be to eject. There are other hot hostesses who don’t already see you as a customer. Or get a part-time job in a restaurant. Most food/drink service staff are sluts and while they tend to follow a “don’t shit where you eat” policy with customers, it doesn’t apply to their co-workers.
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Or you can straight up ask her:
Are you flirting with me to get more tips?
Turns the whole thing cold, only the most honest ones will answer yes.
The dishonest ones will shut down and be ice cold civil.
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I’ll echo this. Places like Hooters, The Tilted Kilt and the like especially are anti-game establishments except for the most seasoned pros. I’ve managed to number pull and date a few of these girls, but most of them have so many options from being hit on all day, the flake ratio will be through the roof. If anything, being aloof and coming in with a hot date will certainly raise your social proof much higher than trying to spit tight game on a hardened waitress who’s job is to earn your tips. Well said.
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What’s working well for me lately in some regular restaurant/bar hangouts:
1. Use Roosh “Day game” principles in restaurants/bars on “hired guns” like bartenders, hostesses, waitresses.
Like diluted strippers they half-expect people are coming in there just for them. They are looking for chance to put you in category of “customer.” You need to distinguish by innocently “rambling” on ordinary topics where you are clearly not obviously “Hitting on her.”
The more times you see her, you continue with the rambles, while throwing in more and more DHV spikes and brief stories about your awesome existence.
Too much teasing during the day will “scare away the cat” A great Roosh line: “Girls fuck guys who play the dance, so play the dance”
2. I agree that what he said prior to “I want to see you outside here” is indistinguishable boring chit chat. Not going to persuade her to see you “outside here” based on just that.
3. Remember to KEEP TALKING when you see her. Repeat: do not follow her threads, do not let her interrupt, you need to bewilder her with words.
When you come in restaurant, hit her immediately with a casual, offhand ramble routine. Let her worry about “When am I going to seat this guy?” or “When is he going to order a drink?”
If you hook her up front with something interesting, she may be persuaded to seek you out herself, or continue the convo when she comes back to table, or when you’re on the way out.
She will eventually pick up “Wait, this guy is actually trying to hit on me everytime he comes in .” But, by this time, she won’t care if you are establishing “High Value Guy” who is subtly also “disqualifying me” with teasing and negs
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Ramble routine? No.
The only way to play this is to go distant and a little cold on the chick. Continue to frequent the place as usual, but barely acknowledge her presence if at all. Give her crappy tips. Work in a neg.
She will try to win you back, then you have a little hand. But this one is a toughie because you already dug yourself a hole. Go distant on her anyway. It’ll be a good learning experience for you.
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You’re right for his case.
I was talking about what working for me.
For him: probably shot permanently. Hard to recover – I’d say MAYBE can get it back with pre-selection, but that assumes he’s actually pre-selected to begin with and can pull that off to begin with
Any guy can get a girl to walk in with him. The preselection only works if the girl is as hot or hotter than her. She’s not going to start swooning if she’s an 8 and he walks in with a 5 and a 6. In the latter cases, it may arouse her curiosity, but not her jealousy, which is the key to preselection
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Agreed.
“Her: ‘Keep coming in and we will see what happens’”
It’s her job to keep people happy and coming back, he’s made her job easy.
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Slashdot thread on male versus female bosses. The frantic clamor of white knights still rings in my head.
Do Women Make Better Bosses?
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“Yes. Show up.”
I am always surprised to see some guy I thought was an alpha, show up with some aging woman. And the quiet guy ends up with a hot young girl.
In fact, you should make post about that, Heartiste: how the quality of woman you sleep with alone determines who’s alpha and who’s not. Its a long time coming, judging by some of the asinine assumptions in the “manosphere” about what makes an alpha male…
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Anhedonic? That’s beautiful. Thank you.
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The beta orbiter social circle style game works the best for the hottest of chicks. These girls don’t meet guys over the internet, they are dealing with too many guys as it is. They don’t meet guys at clubs or bars for the most part but it is not unheard of. They usually meet their b/f’s in college or through the workplace or though social circle. The orbiter stands a chance if he waits in the weeds until her b/f and her break up, or he can indirectly pry her relationship open over time until she is single again.
The more attractive a woman is the LESS slutty she is; she does not HAVE to be slutty and if she is it works against her goals. The 9s-10’s rarely partake in one-night stands not only because they don’t have to but their relative reduced amount of testosterone (compared to other women) makes them less horny yet also more feminine, which is what made them 9-10’s in the first place. Conversely a fat blob can only offer up her slimy hole and oftentimes they are so happy to just have a guy to bang that they will bang nearly anyone.
Also see this: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/08/sex-looks-are-supply-substitutes.html
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Western women are afeminine and promiscuous by default now, this would only hold true in eastern europe, latin america and asia.
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Probably most true for women of British Isles origin. The people in the British Isles seem to have high test levels, making them the opposite of, say, the Japanese.
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Speaking of MILFs, this seemed like a good opportunity to remind all aging and bitter feminazis that the vigorous plowing of 18-year-old vagina by my 41-year-old penis continues unabated.
LOL, and now the po-lice are “investigating me” and a bitter lawyercunt wants a law to make my legal relationship illegal! Oh no! Hey honey, I’m about ready for my mid-afternoon BJ.
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2012/03/james_hooker_modesto_teacher_w.php
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“remind all aging and bitter feminazis that the vigorous plowing of 18-year-old vagina by my 41-year-old penis continues unabated.”
Now, there’s an empowering message.
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I just banged a girl who is traveling with some dude. He’s a tall, confident one, and it took me about four hours to have her naked in my bed, anyway.
Girls are evil, guys are losers.
Here’s pictures and all: http://two.cedonulli.com/2012/03/competition/
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Good job, man. I always knew you could do it.
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Coldblooded. A+++++++++++
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http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138%2811%2900084-5/abstract
Men (may) become attracted to the physical type of the type of women they associate with.
http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138%2811%2900113-9/abstract
Women’s behavioural engagement with a masculine male heightens during the fertile window: evidence for the cycle shift hypothesis.
http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138%2811%2900111-5/abstract
Low nonpaternity rate in an old Afrikaner family. (From abstract) It may be that imposed religious morals have led to reduced extrapair activities in some historic populations.
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For the last one….girls love attention. The other strategies of bringing another girl in would make it seem like you’re too obviously trying to get into her pants.
[heartiste: no, that’s not true. just the opposite. you come with a different girl and enjoy your company with her and it will look like you’ve STOPPED trying to get into the waitress’s panties.]
Flight attendants, waitresses by the nature of their job are always nice because they get tipped. It’s also in many ways a chance to get attention with plausible deniability—is she giving me IOI’s or is she angling for a better tip?
I would just play it totally cool next time you’re in there.
I’ve found “forgetfullness game” if you want to call it that does work to spark interest.
A girl I’ve game for a wile bblows hot and col in her flightiness.
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just as an fyi…that was my post somehow I didn’t get my details into the comments section. That’s for the reply.
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Any girl in a ‘profession’ that allows her to ‘retail her attractiveness’ should be treated like a washed out gold strike: every claim-jumper in the territory has panned that stream.
The result is a babe with a seriously inflated sense of SMV. Period.
Your only gambit is to DHV via pre-selection, as instructed.
As for your frame: imagine that any such prospect is as flighty as Shelly Long ( Cheers ) — someone so cute and screwed up that Ted Danson ran her off the show. ( Along with the writers. )
Meaning that you should subtract SMV points for her emotional overhead.
Her high contact job guarantees plenty of job-jabber, primping for the trade and off hours fatigue. Of course, wearing heels while working at speed is simply brutal. It’s like jumping hurdles while wearing combat boots. So if her establishment is at all up-tempo — she’ll need a nurse more than a lover.
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If you’re 21 try hitting on 18 year-old action. When I was a senior in High School the hottest babes fell like bowling pins to loser-cads in their early twenties. It didn’t matter that he was still living with momma, was out of school and out of work. All he had to do was poorly imitate James Dean.
( Which, BTW, you ought to study — particularly Rebel Without a Cause. If you adopt even the least part of that persona the teenagers will swoon. Fill your life with ‘worldly problems’ and let her hang around your edges and she’ll be ever grateful.
This is the goofy dynamic you see at Leftist ‘protests’; which are really rebel rituals for ten thousand Dean wanna-bees.
They usually degenerate into cave-man dynamics — think feral — which is impossible for cave-girl to resist. )
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No babe EVER wants to troll through your troubles. She’s already got her own emotional cargo — it comes in two sizes: huge or staggering.
Until you’re shagging her it is entirely pointless to drag up High School ‘issues.’
You, under no conditions, want her to put on her psych cap. Be like 0bama: a blank canvas that she can paint with current events.
Always keep the focus on the present and things to do, together, real soon.
Stay completely away from navel gazing. And when that starts she gets to talk three times as much as you.
You want to be a madly paddling Mallard: always cool on the surface.
James Dean had it down to an art form. You want her talking far more than you, almost from the get-go. Then keep it that way.
You can’t do that talking about your past. So don’t.
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“Any girl in a ‘profession’ that allows her to ‘retail her attractiveness’ should be treated like a washed out gold strike: every claim-jumper in the territory has panned that stream.”
Any girl in a profession that allows her to retail her attractiveness is called a HO. There are two kinds of HOs in the world. One kind will do the dirty for money. The other kind is after your money but wont do the dirty for it – still a HO.
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[…] you got something on your mind, when you want to do something and you think it is important, don’t look or ask for permission or acceptance from ANYONE. Be your own authority, this is personal authority. Actually the line by the father: “are you […]
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“Yes. Show up.”
Advice of the month
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On Social Proof:
I have a good friend who is a natural with the ladies, game is like second nature to him to say the least. Said friend works in the medical industry with several beautiful women, and we have a friendship of mutual admiration and respect.
Over the years throughout the course of our friendship my buddy has consistently talked me up to his hot co-workers, telling them about what he enjoys about our friendship, my success, the traits that I posses that inspire him etc.
A few weeks ago I met up with him and a hot co-worker for a few drinks. Needless to say she was consistently showering me with compliments and hitting on me. As a recent taker of the red pill I attempted to maintain a strong frame, pull cocky funny, etc.
I have to say that I was quite amazed at how strongly she came onto me, and I instantly realized that the concept of social proof was being played out before my eyes. Specifically “Women want a man that other men want to be”.
I did not sleep with her, number close or anything of the sort (my interest isn’t in banging chicks, it’s an in LTR). I found it to be very fascinating to see the principle in action, and I just wanted to take the time to share my experience with the gents here.
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To the man who was a nerd in junior high. You’re 33 years old, that really isn’t relevant anymore. It’s to your credit you got over it, but I don’t see why you need to bring it up with your girlfriend. If you talk about your past (and definitely limit this, since it can be boring), focus on a time in your life when things were better. For instance, if you enjoyed college, take her to visit the campus. Women will feel sorry for a man if he gets a bullet to the leg or something. Even then, only for a short time. It’s better to focus on your successes.
To the cougar chaser, you’re a sweetheart. Good luck to you.
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“Women will feel sorry for a man if he gets a bullet to the leg or something.”
I used to be an adventurer myself, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
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Stumbled across this, thought that Mr. Heartiste and his audience might find it interesting.
2,400 years ago, Aristophanes wrote a play called “Women in Charge” (“Ecclesiazusae”). From Wikipedia:
“The play concerns a group of women, the leader of which is Praxagora. She has decided that the women must convince the men to give them control of Athens, because they could rule it better than the men. The women, in the guise of men, sneak into the Assembly of Athens and vote the measure in, convincing some of the men to vote for it because it is the only thing they have not tried.
The women then institute a totalitarian-like government in which the state feeds, houses, and generally takes care of every Athenian. They enforce an idea of equality by allowing every man to sleep with every woman, but with the condition that the man must sleep with an ugly woman before he may sleep with a beautiful one.
There is a scene in which two men are talking. One of them is going along with the new government, giving his property to the women, and obeying their orders. The other does not wish to give up his property, but he is more than willing to take advantage of the free food from the new government.
The following scene has a pair of young lovers unable to make their tryst as a succession of ever older and more hideous women drag the man off to make love to them first, as laid down by the new laws.
The final scene or epilogue has Praxagora’s husband, Blepyrus, on his way to the government-sponsored communal feast, and inviting the audience to join him.”
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Much wisdom here. May I gently suggest that we stop using gay actors and actresses and their sham marriages to each other as examples of Chateau principles?
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WSJ article by Mary Eberstadt. “Has the Sexual Revolution Been Good for Women? No.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304724404577297422171909202.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
And a drunk fat woman being arrested
this little piggy went AHH AHH AHH all the way home.
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They had the chance to have sex with the men they really wanted.
Too bad the men they wanted to be married to, were wise enough to tell them to play sexual revolution somewhere else … or set them spinning another time.
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Empowerment in action.
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Off-topic and perhaps preaching to the choir, but commentary on today’s dating/mating scene (and how much he’s sick of it):
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ON the first issue; I’ve had a woman tell me the only reason she went out with a guy was to get a good dinner (instead of dorm food) when she wasn’t interested in him. (friend of woman I was dating) There wouldn’t be any danger with a known beta, and probably wouldn’t be done with someone she didn’t know.
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Women who date unwitting suckers and have no intention of banging them — call it ‘chump a hump’, or ‘stroke a dope’ — are typically women who haven’t dated in a long while, are horribly narcissistic, and need a man to dote on them. Most women at most times, though, won’t date men under false pretenses. There’s too much risk to a woman, both in lost time and unpredictable male reaction, to make that kind of investment with no promise of romantic fulfillment.
For this reason, I wouldn’t consider stroke-a-dope to be as much fun for either sex as pump-and-dump. The women in a pump-and-dump relationship have a lot more fun than the men in stroke-a-dope. Even after the dumping happens, the women are usually not TOO upset. “I didn’t want to monopolize his time anyway.” And although we should still be careful not to hook up with psycho beeotches, the risk is quite a lot less than what I was imagining a few years ago. (I don’t quite get the meaning of “chump-a-hump”, and “hump-a-chump” is decidedly NOT what happens!)
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What advice do you have for banging a professor? The attraction is absolutely there and definitely some comfort as well. She’s even put herself in the position for me to ask her, I just haven’t had the nuts to say anything yet. It’s a smallish school and I don’t want to compromise her job if we get figured out. I figure something like “If you weren’t my professor, I’d have to take you out..but then again you’re the one with the money…you’d have to take me” delivered in an uncaring tone and direct eye contact would be a good start. Any suggestions?
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From her perspective such a she-prof/ stud-student relationship is fraught with legal issues.
Most places of Higher Ed. have policies that totally forbid such types of ‘fraternization’.
Why not try one of the co-eds instead?
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Believe me, she wants it. What I really don’t know is what the policy is. That’s why I feel like I have to tread carefully.
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You have to get her off campus under a pretext before she will allow things to proceed. Select a location and give her the chance to meet you without calling it a date.
It has to be away from campus and campus social circles. Don’t use a bar or local shop where every kid from school will see her talking to you. Until you get indications otherwise, her fantasy is to keep things on the DL.
Once you get her to the location, proceed like any other outing with one exception. Never bring up the “Teacher – Student” thing. It will become resistance if she puts any real thought into it. The T/S thing will work in your favor as long as it stays in the back of her mind, spinning her hamster wheel. If she brings it up, treat it like a boyfriend – ignore it and change the subject.
Here’s an example:
You – “There’s a coffee house on the other side of town call Cup O’ Joe. It’s a quite place away from all the campus BS. I’m going there tonight. I’ll let you buy me a cup of coffee when you get there.”
Her- “I can’t because blah blah blah”
You- (Not interested in her reasons or excuses.)”Give me your number and I’ll text you directions if you change your mind.” (segue into text game) “I’ll see you later.” (Exits)
At the shop:
Her-“I really shouldn’t be doing this.”
You-“How’s the coffee? I don’t see how you can stand it with all that junk in it.”
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Just to add to the vulnerability game, I’ve ran that on all girls I’ve dated. IF you say it coming from a place of “LOOK AT ME NOW, I’M FUCKING COOL. I’M NOT HURT BY MY PAST NOT ONE BIT” *repeats how you were so nerdy eighty times* makes you look beta.
However, if you bring up that you were scrawny as fuck and awkward and socially weird in a passing way that doesn’t assert that you’re hurt by it, but in a casual “I took charge though and became satisfied with where I was, so I started taking better care of myself and becoming more sociable,” it intrigues women in a weird way. They start feeling a deeper connection to you for two reasons:
1. By being open about it and not dwelling on it, it makes you seem really confident in who you are now, and more attractive because you overcame an obstacle in order to better yourself. I often get the response: “I can’t picture you being that way” usually with a make out gaze.
2. It builds comfort incredibly fast. The fact that you’re so open and not afraid to divulge information about yourself, especially shit that MIGHT make you look beta, makes her feel like she’s known you forever, and in turn she’s ten times more open to telling you personal shit about her which in turn allows you to have more conversational topics. etc. etc.
There is ONE flaw to vulnerability game, and that’s that the comfort building can be far too much and the chances of a woman wanting you as her boyfriend increase, so if you’re trying to have an emotionless fling, this is NOT the route to go.
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Vulnerability game only works if you trust her enough not to turn on you if she later wants you back by destroying your chances with other women.
Rather than her being honest about her feelings.
Hence, man of mystery mode, and playfulness.
How can you be the bad guy if you got into the relationship in an absent-minded way?
And how can you be the bad guy, if she chose to be with you?
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Re trying to game waitresses – its a fools game to try the approach you employed. Women must love the buffer the job creates as it allows them to flirt with men they may not ever have the boldness to do so if you encountered them some where with no buffer.
Ditto for a hot girl serving you at a supermarket or a hairdresser. Or even on public transport – where women may be much more bold and star longingly at you, sit or stand next to you and lean against you – I find the married type or girls who I know for sure have a boyfriend will be the worst offenders at this on public transport. If you hit them up with thoughts of something on the side they turn you down. The best approach may be to just enjoy the small in the moment feeling as it happens with the thought it will go nowhere. The vibe that you have other ways to meet women other them happening upon them somewhere like a restaurant together with the hot cold flirt/game back (knowing it has no happy end) and then ignore them would be the best approach.
It must be a bit of chumps move to bite at the flirting bait and hit them up for something as it must happen a lot to them. Most women are attention whores.
Not only do they like tips they don’t mind collecting the attention currency.
I am sure that if they wanted some thing to progress they have the means to make it happen in a buffered sort of way. How easy would it be for her to write her phone number or email on a docket and slip it to you. If they are serious the ignoring and not hitting them up will draw them out.
The best test is to run into them outside some where (which is also much less likely).
If they have no interest they will walk on by like a stranger totally ignoring you. If they do they will hit you up.
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Heh.
A woman playing waitress does not have the looks to go into modelling, is too ugly to be kept, does not have the skills to be in the office.
Or she could be a college student.
Regardless, tipping her only changes you into a john.
The guy who pays for her (outside her regular wages), gives her the resources to be around the guy she’s attracted to.
Hence, you are paying her … to see someone else.
Don’t be that kind of chump.
Better to keep your resources close to you, so that you have more opportunities to interact with more women, some of whom might be honest enough to make the first move.
The person who asks first has less pull in the relationship.
Which is why women rarely ask, but send plenty of “signals”.
Plausible deniability and all that.
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“The person who asks first has less pull in the relationship.”
This is interesting, but how can the guy NOT be the one to “ask first.” ?
Seems like its the man who has to go for the number to get her out for drinks. Or, if its a social circle situation where you are hanging out somehwere, to go for the hook up
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The guy can be the one to NOT ask first if he just tells her where he’ll be.
If she turns up, she’s interested.
If not, she isn’t.
Where’s the asking there?
If it’s the social circle situation, same thing.
As an example I’m betting the male youth group leader who is entertaining … gets plenty of bangs at church.
Observe how those guys are always seen in close proximity with female church members, yet are somehow above the label of “unseemly” compared to the new guys who try the same thing.
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Thought you might find this interesting. This author is now on the cover of Time Magazine with a lot of the predictions you’ve been making for several years:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/sex-richer-liza-mundy-gender-gap_n_1363917.html#s790526&title=Women_Will_Want
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Actually, heartiste has been saying the opposite – that women’s and men’s nature will stay the same regardless of how much money they have.
[heartiste: that’s not quite what i say. when options increase (or decrease), sexual market strategies will reflect that. a woman’s nature is hypergamous — she desires higher status men — so when she makes more money, her pool of men who make equal to and more than what she makes shrinks, and so her nature dictates that she will find those men making less than her less attractive than before she started earning her own income. for men, when they make more money their status goes up. so they begin pursuing hotter women.]
Now, having money does tend to make women promiscuous, but not because “they become more interested in a variety of sexual experiences” – rather they’re more likely to get pumped and dumped by high-testosterone men.
[or women who make a lot of money are just more masculine by nature and have higher libidos.]
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The article is feminist wishful thinking at its worst.
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‘”Women are becoming the gender that wants sex more than men do,” Mundy argues. She writes that women’s professional success has “unleashed” them sexually, leading them to seek sex more directly and to be open to a greater variety of sexual experience.’
LOL. Now that a bunch of useless paper-pushing State-enforced HR jobs are going to reverse a few billion years of evolution, I look forward to the free food, lodging, and travel I’ll get from stringing along hordes of beta orbiter chicks.
[heartiste: masculine women who are extremely ambitious and careerist are also very sexually adventurous, so they want the world to look like their own lives. but study after study disproves mundy’s main contention: men have higher sex drives than women and will seek out sex more vigorously than women.]
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Look at this gallery of civil war general portraits:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119084/The-Civil-War-warriors-Fascinating-photographs-Union-generals-kept-U-S-150-years-ago.html
Look at how they hold themselves, and especially their gaze. The whole country was alpha then, and will be once again.
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In this article about weight loss a woman observes: I notice that I no longer flinch when someone’s eyes linger on me.
http://www.salon.com/2012/03/25/surprised_to_see_me/
I can’t wait for the comments to explode.
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re: “hostess w the mostess”
since when are barmaids high value? looks are so common and yet we have guys here stressing and strategizing about how to pick up the drinks runner! the things guys here forget is that these chicks work there not for the tips, but because they want to *meet* a high value guy and become a stay@home.
the best game to run (if any) in these scenarios is straight up g manifesto. go to these places for lunch on weekdays: suited up, swagger, smiles n banter. you can tell they like you when they have a twinkle in their eye as they greet you. the twinkle is visions of dollar signs, obvs, but at that point the pickup is yours to lose.
but the thing is, you should just date in your class (ie if you sling drinks then by all means roll w the “industry” bottom feeders). a smart professional would seek someone on their level. there are plenty of attractive women who won’t live to mooch off you once they have your commitment.
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Good stuff. I usually treat restaurant/bar help flirting as practice game. I doesnt affect my tipping and I dont expect it to go anywhere. But it can be fun and good practice. Plus, if other chicks in the place see the help having fun with you, it can work out as preselect and DHV.
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“but the thing is, you should just date in your class. a smart professional would seek someone on their level.”
I don’t necessarily agree here. If I make more moneyit helps establish dominance. Im the boss and in charge.
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“the things guys here forget is that these chicks work there not for the tips, but because they want to *meet* a high value guy and become a stay@home.”
This is true. “Hired guns” like hostesseses, bartenders, are picked by restaurant management to basically be an “attractive front” for the restaurant. Its a low level marketing strategy, they are diluted strippers.
What’s in it for the hired guns is that they are basically chicks who can’t do any better in life than have the McJob they are in. At least at that point in time. They are looking, on some level, to meet a high value guy and improve their station in life.
A “pretty woman” syndrome, richard gere julia roberts
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The same way you can flip the script in terms of challenge/ prize; Men can chump a hump women they aren’t interested in. Not for secks like a conventional smash and dash, just for a “good dinner” or gifts. Right before christmas, I make it a point to date as many cougars and butch feminists as possible and then I have a massive dump out right after valentine’s day.
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re: “Surprise! I have a penis” — looks like somebody remembers alt.seduction. Wasn’t that a mrsex4unyc line?
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“Hate crimes laws ought to be repealed, for everyone. Legislating thoughtcrime is unAmerican”
These laws may hurt you, but they benefit most white middle-class Americans, since they are strongly biased against our competitors: the white working-class.
[heartiste: they don’t hurt me. ever act on principle?]
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Riiiiiiiight… the White working class is the enemy of the White middle class… to your twink Marxist professors at the local community college, maybe.
The time is coming soon when one’s skin will be one’s uniform… and Whites will have to build private armies faster than private schools.
Mark my words.
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Actually, the Marxists don’t agree with me, since they argue its the rich against everybody else. Rather, middle-class and one faction of the rich + minorities are fighting against a different faction of the rich + white working-class.
And if you are in the middle-class, I suggest you go spend some time around blue-collar whites. Perhaps go into one of their bar’s. The hostility you encounter will quickly disillusion you to the idea of loyatly being based on solely skin. Now, as ever, its based on economic and reproductive advantage.
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I walk just as readily between both the white- and blue-color classes… they’re mostly all hostile, self-centered and worthy of the pit.
It’s only when the chips are down that blood wills out and you see the innate goodness and cooperation.
And that’s the problem with Whites these days… their chips haven’t been down in any significant way for a long, long while.
But it’s coming… it’s coming.
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Principles are based on self-interest. Why you perceive hate crime as being against you, I obviously couldn’t say, since I don’t know your personal circumstances.
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I, on the other hand, support it. I don’t make racist comments in public, so why wouldn’t I support it? If some redneck gets thrown in jail for opening his mouth, so much the better for me.
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Well, hate crime laws do imply that killing a gay person is worse than killing a straight person, putting less value on a straight life. Think what people would say if it was the other way around, lol.
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I’m the nerdy junior high emailer – thanks for the advice (heartiste and commenters).
FWIW, the reason I wrote was that one of my prime tormentors was recently killed in a car crash, leaving 3 kids behind. I’ve been in a spacey-distant mood ever since, and I absolutely hate the “what are you thinking?” “Nothing.” “No, really, what’s up?” “I don’t want to talk about it.” “Is it something with me?” bullshit from my GF. God, it would be great to find someone who respects the statement “I don’t want to talk about it” — do those women exist?
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Its against our nature not to try to heal, but, sure, will respect your wish.
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deflect.
her: what are you thinking?
you: your sister has a nice ass
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It’s nice that she cares, but I wouldn’t talk her about it. My guess is she wouldn’t say anything that would make you feel better.
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“Surprise! I have a penis anti-game”
Can we get a dedicated post?
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I emailed Heartiste about a matter, but since it has some resemblance to the 1st topic, I’ll post it here and see where it goes.
Last weekend, I was on a 2nd date with a I met one week earlier in SOHO. Me and my buddy met her and her girlfriend in a lounge, both of them 9 pointers (one is an acrobat, “mine” a ballerina). My buddy is a former model and although I don’t have such a history I was blessed with good looks and wit, so we usually have it quite easy winging out together (which might explain the end of this story). We engage the girls and then wander off, after three minutes of conversation and some casual dancing. We even had other girls smile and initiate conversations when walking past us (we hanged at a “busy” part of the bar, close to the smoking terrace).
As the lounge started to close down at 1AM we invited the girls to another place for a drink and had a good time, some kissing ensued. I saw the girl I’d been gaming the following night for a drink and also kissed a bit. It goes against my normal principles to hang with new dates on weekend nights, but she was fine, and into meeting up why I wouldn’t pass on any opportunity.
Last weekend we had our 2nd dade, which basically was bar hopping. It was still calm and quite early, for a friday why I proposed we go back to my place, to which she answered “That is a great idea”.
We banged three times over the course of 4 hours. Afterwards, when both of us were chilling with some wine (lots of talking), she started aksing me whether I was tired and wanted her to leave (which was surprising since most of my lays want to stick around). I replied that she could do however she liked, but she was welcome to stay. Two minutes later she brought it up again, but kind of projected all her previous questions onto me:
She: “I can see you are really tired. Do you want to sleep?”
Me: “Umm, I’m tired but could do whatever right now..”
She: “Ok, I don’t want to disturb and If you want me to, I can leave”
Me: “Whatever.. I know its good to wake up in your own bed, but you should really stay if you want to”
She: “I think I will order a cab” (Walking to the living room and fetching her clutch and phone)
While she got dressed, I wandered around the apartment and didn’t talk too much to her. We kissed at the door and she thanked me for a “perfect evening” (It was now past 3AM).
She walked out and off into the night.
I woke up with a boner, and my ego was running in some kind of hamster wheel I’ve never thought it would do. Sure, I was glad I’d banged a real hottie, her body was amazing and she was cool to hang with and talk to. But, why would she leave? Please elaborate on this so I can get my head around this. Was it a reversed pump and dump? I don’t care what, i just want to figure it out 🙂
Best,
Lymmel
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Lymmel:
Heartiste had a post a few years ago about this (about how he used to get clingy if a girl suddenly wanted to leave, and now he acts alpha and uncaring – with better results of course).
It’s most likely delayed-onset ASD (still much better than regular ASD aka LMR!) After the alcohol and oxytocin subsided, she was like ‘omg, what am I doing!?”
It’s possible that you did something to reduce her attraction and cause this, but more likely ‘it’s her, not you’.
The good news it is it sounds like you handled it well, by acting chill and cool and uncaring. (To paraphrase Mike Damone, “act like you don’t care whether she goes, stays, lays or prays.”) Although with the benefit of hindsight, you likely should’ve been pushing her more towards going, in the guise of politeness – ‘yeah, why don’t you go, I’d hate to see you be late for class/work in the morning b/c you got lost on the way’.
My advice: go radio silent for a few days, enough time to make her wonder if you pump and dumped her, then give her a casual call. Something like ‘hey my buddy was wondering if you and acrobat girl wanted to hang with us again”.
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Why did she leave? It was a shit test. She was evaluating her value to you. She wanted you to beg her to stay. That would have put you on a rocket ship to betaville.
Put a notch on your post, yell, “Next!” and move on. No matter how you look at it, this chick is not LTR material.
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Wait for her to call you.
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My take on it:
She: “I can see you are really tired. Do you want to sleep?”
Me: “Umm, I’m tired but could do whatever right now..”
Tell her what you want and don’t be wishy-washy about it. If you want her to go, say so. If you want her to stay, say so but don’t be needy/clingy/begging about it. Making a clear decision and being a take-charge kinda guy beats vague wishy-washy indeciciveness any day, IMO.
You man should decide when asked, she woman should submit and obey.
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Why would she leave? Many possible reasons. I wouldn’t over-analyze. Make up some ego-salving explanation if you like, but it really doesn’t matter.
If you want to see her again (and you do, or else you wouldn’t be still thinking about this) then give her a call.
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