shiva1008 hams it up:
Approaching women is a Demonstration of Lower Value. It basically says, “I know you wouldn’t give a shit about me otherwise, so I’m going to have to force you to pay attention to me.” Keep at it chumps.
The man-hating troll will deny the laws of physics if it helps it concoct a fantasy universe where no action a man does redounds to his favor, save those actions that are done for the explicit advantage of feminist crones. This is how the man-hating troll is able to rationalize that approaching women — an act of resolve and daring that most men are incapable of mustering on their own — is a sign of self-doubt instead of the sign of confidence that is so obvious to anyone not clinically insane with impotent rage.
This is why there is no point logically reasoning with a man-hating troll. What purchase can be made in the warped mind of a void entity which announces, with or without conviction, that a man hitting on a woman qualifies as coercion and an admission of insecurity? It is as if the void entity has entered a parallel plane of existence where confident and assertive men sit on their thumbs patiently waiting for women to offer them sex, and enormous hamsters gobble galaxies whole. It’s best simply to viciously mock the man-haters, and showcase their everlasting torment as an example for the others.
If that was the case then men making assertive decisions would be a DLV.
Somebody should direct the troll to this blog entry…women only see men as shadows until they come into focus.
http://thewomanandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/watching-shadows-come-into-focus/
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Stating the obvious, but this guy exposes himself by suggesting that its unnatural for men to open women in conversation, game or no game. Real men have been doing it since day one, kid.
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There is one case in which the troll’s comment is true. Unfortunately for her, it’s a trivial case.
The term “higher” is a relative one. A man who has to approach women to seduce them would have a lower SMV than a rock star or pro-athlete that has women lining up to meet him.
But if you have to compare your average PUA to a man in an extraordinary situation, you have already conceded the point, haven’t you?
[Heartiste: The exceptional circumstance that must be operative for the man-hating troll’s claim to be true proves its opposite.]
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There is a teeny, tiny, utterly minuscule amount of truth to the comment. Not having to approach to get women is more alpha than having to approach. You are after all going up to her, and, in that sense, you are the one pursuing.
[Heartiste: Man-hating trolls to the contrary, most women prefer to be approached by high value men, not the other way around. Only famous or extremely alpha men (top 0.001%) can sit back and watch the groupies fall in their laps. So pursuit does not necessarily or even usually indicate lower status; it just means the man wasn’t going to sit around forever to bust a move. If anything, a pursuit shows he is assertive and bold, traits which women love in men.]
But that doesn’t mean approaching doesn’t work, even with the hottest chicks. Nor does it mean that there are not ways to minimize, eliminate, or even reverse the loss of value you get from being the approacher rather than the approachee.
[Approaching is not inherently low value, not as perceived by women. The conduct of the approach is what determines its indicator as a low or high value maneuver. An approach done the right way can boost a man’s value, sometimes before he’s even said a word.]
The proof though is in the pudding: approaching lots gets you more and hotter women. And isn’t that what really matters, not whether you measure up to some pure ideal of the best way to meet girls?
[In reality, the men who approach the least are the lower value men, thus disproving this troll’s assertion.]
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I don’t see anything we really disagree on.
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Though this seems relevant:
http://www.rooshv.com/get-laid-without-approaching
[Heartiste: Those are all good recs, and will definitely bring women into a man’s social purview. But unless the women are especially forthright (or masculinized), even bartenders and surfing instructors have to make the critical finishing move to get the girl on a date (or into the back room.) I have a few bartender friends and I’ve seen them in action when a cute girl has bellied up to their bar. They don’t just pour drinks for the girls waiting for an invitation to their beds; they chit chat, tease, and comport themselves much like any man with game would when approaching a girl he likes the look of. About the only difference is the precise wording of the close. A bartender doesn’t have to ask the girl out for drinks. That would sound silly coming from him. He’ll say there’s an industry after-party or the staff is meeting later for a toke, and that she should come by. That’s his critical bustamove. But it’s still a bustamove.
Related: I’ve had a few girls outright approach me cold and ask to join them for a drink (one even asked if I wanted to go on a date with her. How quaint.) These girls were not very attractive, maybe 5s tops. One was chubby. It seems only more desperate girls who want to shoot out of their league are mentally down with the idea of approaching the man first. Most hot babes rarely approach men, because they are used to the high value men they desire approaching them.]
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Masculine woman approach by verbalizing their intent; they come to talk to you. Usually they are fat and ugly. Feminine woman approach by initiating contact by sub-communications. They give a glimpse at you, they start flirting from a long distance, walking very slowly around you. They radiate everything that is female. This is also what happens in the wild.
Woman like men with lots of options, that much of options so he doesn’t have to approach. Sitting in a club surrounded by five extreme hot chicks and men who kiss your ass is the biggest DHV you can imagine.
ps: girls wanting you to join them for a drink are usually cockteasers and attentionwhores.
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But we were not talking about a finishing move or a close, we were talking about approaching.
[Heartiste: The crucial segue on a girl swimming in your orbit is equivalent to the walk approach on a totally random girl. Both are moves that telegraph male interest and, if we assume the troll’s insipid frame, lower a man’s value. This is hair-splitting that overplays the impression of walking up to a new girl, and underplays the impression of leading an innocuous convo or interaction with a dubiously known girl into fruitful territory.]
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The crucial segue on a girl swimming in your orbit is equivalent to the walk approach on a totally random girl.
Are you serious? Complete bullshit. You’ve swum so far out to sea on this one, your ego won’t let you come back.
[Heartiste: We’re having a failure to communicate. I’m talking about social circle girls who have given no signs they’re interested in dating. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re talking about social circle girls who have already signaled that they’d like to be approached and asked out, either directly or through mutual friends. Naturally, if the latter, then that is a much easier open than a cold approach would be. But if the former, I don’t really see too much of a difference in difficulty level. If anything, attempting to convert a platonic social circle girl who is either a shallow acquaintance or a long-time asexual friend into a sexual prospect presents a challenge that cold approaching unfamiliar women doesn’t.]
Both are moves that telegraph male interest
But one takes place after the girl has telegraphed her interest and one does not. She is the pursuer. Fuck this is obvious.
[Like I said, failure to communicate. I should have been clearer. As for the nonsense of the “approaching is DLV” theory — yes, it’s bogus, even in theory. You’re more apt to DHV yourself by boldly approaching women than to DLV yourself. Sure, there’s an implicit understanding by the both of you that you’re talking to a girl ultimately to extract sex from her, but girls understand that most men aren’t exceptional famous dudes, and that they have to do the approaching to get any action. Not only do girls understand this nature of the sexual market, but they also prefer to be approached, because boldness is a desirable male trait. This means, in practice, that girls are not only more forgiving of the necessity of the male approach, but they actually will reward a guy bonus status points for making the move on them.
Unless the guy fucks up or looks grotesque. In which cases, the girls will back-rationalize him as a loser. Which is what I suspect happens in real life to a lot of the trolls who drive-by here.]
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you’re talking about social circle girls who have already signaled that they’d like to be approached and asked out, either directly or through mutual friends
Not necessarily girls who have outright said (to you or to others) that they want you to ask them out, but girls who have shown that they are interested by how they act. If a girl is in your social circle and is throwing out IOIs and wanting to be around you, it takes nothing to ask her out. Same with a girl who comes up to you while you’re bartending.
Obviously, if you haven’t done something to attract the girl, you may get shot down, but that’s not the same thing as approaching.
If anything, attempting to convert a platonic social circle girl who is either a shallow acquaintance or a long-time asexual friend into a sexual prospect presents a challenge that cold approaching unfamiliar women doesn’t.
Not for approaching. We are talking about approaching.
There may be other problems with social circle game, but the approach is not one of them.
it’s bogus, even in theory.
The boldness can up your value, but showing interest first can also lower it. Which is why you’re on the knife’s edge when approaching. Which is why going indirect attempts to maximize the former while minimizing the latter.
[Heartiste: That’s true, and it confirms we are still at the art form stage of seduction in some respects. Walking that high wire between masculine intention and needy interest is tough for newbs, and right now it’s hard to put the distinction into a pat formula. Basically, the goal is to sell your romantic intention in a way that will make the girl more open to buying it, just like an ad agency sells unneeded products that make people want to buy them. Obviously, an approach of any nature that isn’t just old friends meeting again is going to trip subconscious alert systems in the girl. And while this fact is usually spun by mgtow and similar shut-ins as proof that all girls know what’s up when a man approaches therefore approaching must be inherently beta, what they miss is that women aren’t driven by logical algorithms. They use their emotional feedback to navigate mating options, and their emotions will lead them to assess bold men who approach with confidence and assurance as higher value than men who sit around glancing at all the girls in a room. Girls will also deceive themselves about the intentions of men who approach them, because they WANT, on a deep primal level, to enjoy being seduced in an ambiguous manner, filled with mystery and flirtatious innuendo open to misinterpretation, and they are attracted to men who know how to give them that experience. I can’t tell you how many girl buddies I’ve heard say “I don’t know his deal. What’s he thinking? Why did he talk to me?”, about some dude who hit on them. Come on, ladies, you don’t know? Really? Apparently, the answer is really that they don’t know. Or rather that they are very good at lying to themselves about how little awareness they have of men’s intentions.]
I also think there is a distinction here that the commenter is making: that is the guy who can get hot girls without approaching is more alpha than the guy who has to approach.
[But many apex alphas love to approach. Taking this out of the realm of abstraction for a moment, I know a guy in the finance industry, very good-looking cocky and charming, a veritable Patrick Bateman, who works grueling 14 hour weekdays, and has had women in clubs and bars and at corporate events basically jump in his lap and hint strongly they wanted to sleep with him. But he harbors a not-so-hidden disgust for these women. To him, the woman is only worth it if she puts up a coy front, and he has to make the moves. Many alphas are like this; they relish the hunt and the opportunity to assert themselves in women’s private spaces more than most betas do. They would laugh at suggestions that approaching women is a DLV. To them, the guy who sits on his duff all night waiting for women to get close to his gravitational pull is the guy with low value. Mystery had a term for the kind of “I will wait till they come to me” passive game espoused by mgtow: fool’s mate.]
But it has to be a guy who can get hot girls. And I’d agree that those guys are somewhat rare, though as Roosh’s post shows, you don’t have to be a movie star for it to happen.
[Of course, the ease with which a man can get hot women is directly proportional to his overall alphaness. So a guy who merely has to show up to get laid is probably a good bet for a super alpha male. But the opposite of a non-appraoching apex alpha is not a DLVing man who instantly loses rank every time he approaches. It does not follow from the fact that since apex alphas don’t need to approach to get laid that a guy who does need to approach to get laid according to his standards of personal delight is necessarily lowering his value through his active approaches; the reasoning is as I gave above: girls expect most men to have to commit to the approach to meet them. It’s such a natural expectation — as natural as women expecting men to pick up the drink tab on a first date, or to at least split the bill — that women don’t dock status points from men who cold approach them. Like I said, it’s often the opposite case: women tend to look more favorably upon men with the balls to assertively intrude in their lives.]
I think we’d agree that the guy who gets hot girls through approaching is way more alpha than the guy who is sitting in the corner nursing his beer and unable to talk to the girls, but that is not to the point.
[My argument is that guys who approach are not “betafying” themselves, as this particular troll asserts, and as many mgtow types like to believe. I’m not arguing that a guy who can snap his fingers and get girls is not more alpha than a guy who has to work to make an impression on girls. (But of course most men have to “work” to get girls, even if that work comes in the form of actor training and beating the pavement for auditions. This is a subtlety that is lost on mgtow, who misunderstand the nature of male striving and its ultimate aim of improving reproductive fitness.)]
I also think we’d both agree that, in the end, who cares if how you get the girl doesn’t conform to some super-alpha ideal.
[The kind of fame or social status needed to be the type of guy who can sit back as hordes of women fall into his crotch is so exceedingly difficult to acquire, and so rarely found in the state of nature, that it’s all but irrelevant as a factor in determining structures of male hierarchy in everyday life for the huge majority of men.]
The commenter is trying to harnass a teeney tiny sliver of truth in the service of a falsehood: that those who have to approach are all losers. Which is utter bullshit.
[The troll was trying to claim that the act of approaching girls — making them “the center of one’s life” in bizarro world mgtow-speak where apparently the false dichotomy fallacy rules — was a DLV in itself. On that point, it is wrong. And we need look no further than examine the types of men who approach vs the types of men who don’t — it’s not the betas who are swooping in on girls to take a stab at glory. Betas are the ones who pray and wait for the day when a cute chick will enter their social circle and a buddy will set them up.
Now it may be the case that a man who approaches is less alpha than a famous super alpha who doesn’t need to approach women, but that’s not the same assertion as claiming the approach itself lowers a man’s value. My view, based on how I see women reacting and tittering about later to their girlfriends, is that men who approach them are demonstrating higher value, and that this is a function of the emotions that are evoked in women by the nature of the bold manly approach. This goes for indirect and direct openers, though as you said indirect allows less confident, socially proofed, or seductive men an opportunity to mitigate value lowering caused by expressing romantic interest too transparently.]
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But many apex alphas love to approach.
Meh, some people like to put artificial difficulties in their way.
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they are used to the high value men they desire approaching them
Or being introduced to high value men in their social circle.
[Heartiste: The guy’s still gotta make a move. Otherwise, the girls leave disappointed, and frustratd by their unfulfilled expectations (which can be even more value-lowering for the social circle guy than a failed cold approach can be for an unfamiliar guy.)
Of course, no one is arguing that making a move on a social circle girl you don’t mingle with too often is a bit easier than hitting on a stranger. But that just goes to show how much more girls respond to the boldness of the cold approach. They know the relative levels of courage involved in each type of approach.]
Which is what they tend to prefer over cold approach.
[Girls prefer that men make the move on them. Girls do not want to be the ones to initiate the dating or fucking protocol. Granted, it’s ideal if a known quantity from within a social group makes the move, but a guy who confidently cold approaches is not going to get turned away solely because he’s not a familiar face. But he will get turned away if he doesn’t handle himself well.]
(Not that there is anything wrong with doing a cold approach.)
Incidentally, one of the advantages of going indirect vs. direct on the opener is that the former disguises the fact that it is an approach. You just happen to run into each other and start up a conversation.
[Yes, this is why I prefer indirect. Any ostensible risk of “value lowering” from a poorly executed direct opener or a direct opener on a girl who is out of the dating market is mitigated by the indirect opener. Plausible deniability is king. Ambiguity is king. Heck, anything that humors the hamster is king!]
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I think troll god Shiva’s work is done here. He touched quite a nerve.
“I am become Death [Shiva], destroyer of worlds…” — Bhagavad Gita 11:32
Namaste.
[Heartiste: I will use a troll as a springboard when using one in such a fashion is personally advantageous.]
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Reading the Gita now? Om Namah Shivaya is the mantra to call upon Shiva- destroyer of darkness- for those caught in the Maya (illusion).
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No, just someone who has seen “The League.” And a big fan of nukes.
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This is a correct analysis CH. I started bartending a few months ago as a side gig and pulled a few girls and you’re correct – while you are the contextual alpha and girls will open you – directly or indirectly – you still have to deliver the killing blow. It’s just that you don’t have to work as hard, but you still have to work some (unless the girl is bombed, then she’ll sometimes start making out with you on a whim heh).
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Yeah, even bus drivers have groupies.
Situational hypergamy has no limits.
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If we’re going to microanalyze this BS, then note that almost every guy gets approached, it’s always by chicks lower on SMV than them. So, aspie nerds get hit on by cigstashe, good looking betas get hit on by cute 7’s, sports stars get hit on by solid 8 and 9’s. To the lower strata, that kind of pulling power of the higher strata looks awesome. But relying on that is basically dumpster diving.
Some work is involved in getting someone of a high enough smv to max out your capability.
That’s why some stars pull mega talent while others don’t. Leo’s got game, he’s not waiting for cute enough.
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All game is “microanaly[sis].” Welcome to the party.
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[So much bracketed bold this thread!]
Man as approacher, instigator, aggressor, and initiator is the way of the typical sexual transaction. But there is also a level of mastery that flips the script, no?
[Heartiste: Naturally!]
Now, that script is available almost exclusively to the elite (those with high visible status), and it is not terribly relevant to average “shadows coming into focus.”
[High visible social status is a luxury good. A “shadow coming into focus” can still play the script flipping game. He just needs to make a splash on stage before he can begin misdirecting his audience’s attention away from his tricks.]
Still, since when do we not talk about apex game, if only for aspirational purposes?
[My point is that even apex alphas have to bustamove eventually. The rare occurence of the famous dude who can literally sit on a bar stool and have women caress his cock through his jeans in ten seconds time without saying a word is the exception that proves my rule.]
shiva1008 has a point. He just pushed it too far by saying the common man-approach per se is for “chumps.”
[The troll has no point beyond that concocted in its fevered imagination to assuage its fetid pustule of a shattered ego. The “common man” approach is the “man” approach, for most common men do not have the sack to cold approach women. When they do, women are drawn to the boldness and “take what I want” attitude that such an approach displays.]
But that is the cost of business in a forum of men: provocation and even ad hominem shouldn’t be taken personally because it indicates declarative commitment more than insult.
[Actually, it is more accurate to say that in a forum which discusses ugly truths in which losers of all stripes are bound to feel the proxy sting of rebuke, trolls will emerge from under their race car beds in force.]
Has anyone ever hung out with men before, or are you all lone wolves? I’m forever surprised by the thin skin of sensitive men — it’s a mystery how they survived high school.
[Your perspective is skewed. Start at the origin source. Most earnest troll comments are the id cries of anonymous thin-skinned readers.]
Name-calling is an amplifier, little more, and amplification is necessary in high-noise, democratic forums like this. It says, “I feel so strongly about this topic that I’m challenging you personally to refute it.”
[Name calling can also be sadistic fun.]
Matt
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What, this doesn’t happen to you chumps?
[Heartiste: Well, if we’re going to be candid, it did actually happen to me a few times. But I don’t consider a lifetime notch count of three inauspicious lays to be particularly satisfying.]
Now I see why I can’t get anywhere with you A-minuses.
[I should just throw myself at the mercy of feminists and grow out a pair of manboobs.]
Like William Wallace once said on the eve of battle (according to Braveheart) in thick brogue, “Jes’ be yerselllves.”
Just be yourself! Easy.
[Works for death row inmates! (Ain’t I a steenker?)]
Matt
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My point is that even apex alphas have to bustamove eventually.
The point we are making is that while they may have to make some minimal effort at some point, it isn’t equivalent to approaching.
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@The Man Who Was . . .
It’s beyond the pale of stupidity if anyone thinks that a man approaching a chick is the result of his lack of confidence. What a joke? What chick worth her weight in salt approach a man? All women know it’s much better and more sexy when a man approaches you.
If a man had no confidence, he wouldn’t approach, just stare and never make that move. Those kinds of men lose their attraction quickly. A girl wouldn’t even think of them twice. If you think you can sit there or stand there and wait for the girls to come over to you, it ain’t happening. Like I said, no woman worth her weight will approach you.
I don’t know what kind of retarded thing this is, but someone is trying to rationalize some very unnatural things about the sexes. Men are aggressive, and they look best when they actually live up to their reputation. Women look best when they are being wooed. Isn’t it dating 101?
I hate role reversals. Please don’t engage in role reversals.
@CH
Even a very high status man, like a famous actor or athlete, just sitting there and women throwing themselves at him looks weak, like some spoiled little prince. He’s an alpha by virtue of his status, nothing more. Alpha by personality and behavior is much more powerful. A famous man who has women falling at his feet, becomes much more alpha if he gets up and approaches a woman who is not one of the groupies throwing herself at him. A man acting on his tastes and desires is most sexy. He’s going after what he wants, instated of choosing form among those who have made themselves available to him.
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Regarding famous guys, I remember reading about a premiere party for a movie with Warren Beatty. All the women were excited about meeting him and, when he turned up, his method was to ignore all the guys in the room and work all the women – even the unattractive ones. Needless to say, he went home with some young floozy.
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Movie star went home with a groupie despite doing everything wrong.
Where’s the punchline?
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Punchline is; even Warren Beatty had to approach women.
[Heartiste: Trolls and troll imitators who think men only have to focus on their careers or nonsexual pursuits and women will come flocking to them are living in a fantasy world of their own making. Imagine the typical scenario: guy gets good job, spends his waking hours climbing the corporate ladder, and earns some swell payola and titles in the process. He hits the gym and reads the classics and brushes up his style. Ideally, when he struts around the office or at the holiday party, girls start looking at him with a little more desire in their eyes. They’re a little more smiley in his company. But they aren’t climbing into his lap. They aren’t requesting sexual favors from him. They aren’t proposing marriage to him. They aren’t asking him out on dates. Even with his improved social status, he still has to make the initiating move. He has to be the one to break the innocuous badinage and direct a girl into tacit sexual conversation, by asking her out on a date or to hang out. He has to actually walk up to a girl, or corner her in a room, to do this.
Is this a cold approach on a girl he doesn’t know? Probably not, unless she works in another department. But it is an approach, and all the pressure is on him to make it happen. To apply the warped theory of the man-hating trolls, he has to DLV himself by hitting on the girl he likes. How insane does that sound to normal ears?
Of course, he’s not DLVing himself by initiating convos with women and asking them out. Now, he WOULD be DLVing himself if he never got around to asking out women who were socially available to him becuse of his contextual social status, and all he ever did was glance at them for signs of sexual interest. And I’ve seen a lot more men retreat into a cocoon of the latter behavior than embrace the alpha challenge of the former behavior.
Grace under pressure. That’s something chicks love in men.]
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He has to actually walk up to a girl, or corner her in a room, to do this.
It’s easier if you have plausible deniability.
[Heartiste: True. That’s why most guys default to the indirect opener for cold appraoches. Not to take anything away from direct game guys, like Krauser. If you’re a pro going direct, might as well save the time you would have spent dancing around your intentions.]
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“All women know it’s much better and more sexy when a man approaches you.”
And I want to add that all men know it’s much better and more sexy when a woman accepts your advances and when she eventually succumbs to your will. That’s the mating game in a nutshell.
Never heard of it in the context of making a rule to yourself to never approach females or wait for them to come to you. That will never yield a successful mating game because most bang-worthy women don’t approach men.
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It’s beyond the pale of stupidity if anyone thinks that a man approaching a chick is the result of his lack of confidence.
Which is why I never said that.
Dipshit.
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I didn’t men you. I meant this Shiva person (the troll).
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This is a good example of how PUA’s contradict themselves. If the idea is to be aloof then what could be more aloof than not caring to speak to women at all?
[Heartiste: Strawequivalency. Aloofness is an attitude. Approaching is a delivery system for that attitude. You could, of course, sit on your mgtow throne, pondering the sadness of your penis and the righteousness and self-proclaimed consistency of your philossophy, while men with bigger balls hit on the girls ignoring you. But what fun would that be?]
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Such is the division of men…some have huge dicks, some have huge balls.
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This is a good example of a male rationalization hamster jerking off into its own mouth.
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Cybro, you are 100% correct. Unfortunately you are arguing with a chick. A chick is writing this claptrap. Naturally chicks want as many men to approach as possible. A true alpha male could care less. In fact he would prefer that they don’t approach! More tail for him!
[Heartiste: Yes, because in the real world true alpha males don’t care about scoring pussy at all.
You have got to be the most deluded, or prevaricating, troll ever to disgrace this board.]
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“Aloof” means to talk to the girl and get her to hang out with you etc., without making it blatantly obvious that it’s your prime objective.
[Heartiste: I can’t believe this needs explaining, but apparently there are some trolls who believe, or wish to believe for purposes of ego enfranchisement, that aloof means sitting in a dark corner by oneself and refraining from interacting with women in any capacity at all.]
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If George Clooney develops an interest in Charlize Theron (for example), and she isn’t aware of it so he expends effort to contact her, talk to her, and seduce her, that makes Clooney beta, even if he’s successful.
Maybe, if you live in the world of theoretical purity and analyze things to the quantam level like an anal-retentive lunatic.
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“women only see men as shadows until they come into focus.”
Quote of the week
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Anti-gamers have rationalization hamsters just like women.
They have other similar attributes, but it’s their hamster that comes out mostly in comment threads.
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If approaching women were a demonstration of lower value, i.e. a beta (or lower) behavior, then betas would be doing a lot more approaching.
You don’t “force” anyone to pay attention to you. When you’ve got game, a woman will pay attention to you until such time as you squander her attention.
He/she might as well say that going in for the kiss or undoing the bra is DLV too. Heartiste, your earlier post on approaching was brilliant in its simplicity.
[Heartiste: Precisely. If making a move on a girl was a DLV, every unbuttoned bra, every hand slipped under a panty waist, every buttock groped, every held hand leading into the bedroom, and every penetration of the vagina would be a value lowering display by the man. And if that were the case, the human species would die out because women would stop having sex with all those provably low value men. So stupid, this troll. Which is why it wins an ignominious award.
My guess is that this specific troll is one of those rancid, feminist self-control freaks who loathe a world where she/it can’t direct exactly how matings happen, from point A to Z. She/it likely never gets hit on by men, and therefore finds comfort in its laughable attempt to paint those men who bypass her/it to hit on other women as low value betas. Sour grapes and all that. So predictable.]
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If making a move on a girl was a DLV, every unbuttoned bra, every hand slipped under a panty waist, every buttock groped, every held hand leading into the bedroom, and every penetration of the vagina would be a value lowering display by the man.
Chances are she’s already telegraphed a lot of interest before you do all these things. Heck, if she’s alone with you in your room, she’s basically holding up a big sign saying TRY TO FUCK ME! Those physical moves you do are her rewards for pleasing you.
On the other hand, if you go up to a random girl and grab her ass, you could get laid from your display of confidence (it’s happened), but the overwhelming likelihood is that you’re just going to get slapped or called a creep.
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You miss the greater point(s):
1. A successful approach can happen without a woman telegraphing any interest. Women also telegraph availability. Men respond (or don’t).
2. Approaching, kissing, bra-unhooking, etc. are all forms of escalation, usually by the guy, and all risk rejection. The approach is the first, and has the highest risk of being shut down. In any case, they are each increments in seduction.
You’re right that she’s sending major signals by the time you’re in the room together.
As far as ass groping, I think Heartiste meant later in the process, not as a random opener. Game-aware men know that even the most dominant Alpha runs a risk of being demonized should he ass-grab without introduction. In fact I’d say THAT COULD BE a DLV since it shows lack of awareness or wit. Depends on the circumstance though. A rock star could probably do it to a groupie. But you still run the risk, in the femcvnt present, of a woman’s desire for notoriety (“he attacked me!”) superseding her desire for sex with an Alpha.
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As far as ass groping, I think Heartiste meant later in the process, not as a random opener.
But it shows coooooooonfidence.
[Heartiste: Yeah, but it’s a bad way to sell that confidence.]
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Not approaching is the one Leykis 101 rule that I don’t believe in. If I waited for chicks to approach me I’d have a single digit notch count and birds would have built a nest on my head. You gotta bust a move if you want the groove.
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I’ve never thought less of a man simply for approaching me. It takes balls to roll up on a stranger and start chatting her up. I respect that.
[Heartiste: This is the way most normal women think. But mgtows and man-hating feminists have about as much insight into the minds of normal women as do garden slugs.]
And although I know some women do approach men, I personally never have. Not one time. And I’m a manjaw!
[Manjaws are an indicator, not a guarantee, of a masculine personality.]
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Ha ha, actually my personality is pretty masculine. (Some of your commenters think I’m actually a man.) But I’m sort of inverted and shy in real life, and the idea of approaching a stranger embarrasses me. That’s why I respect men for doing it, especially knowing that many of them must have to overcome the same shyness that I have. Plenty of male introverts out there.
[Heartiste: Life, and dating, is generally easier for female introverts than for male introverts. The natural passivity of being a woman gels nicely with an introverted disposition. And it’s not like men are going to ignore shy girls who are cute. If anything, those types of girls are more desirable to men, all else equal. I leave the reason why as an exercise for the reader.]
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Approach vs what exactly? Non approach game could work, technically, if the guy was prequalified in some manor or another (known famous, receiving attention from other attractive girls, etc.) However, if it’s approach vs looking at girls from accross the room that is proven to be a very bad mistake.
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Learning to confidently cold approach is Life 101 for men, whether in sales or game. I humbly suggest that every man put himself into this uncomfortable situation of being forced to learn this life skill… preferably in a financially survival-based scenario.
Inevitably, upon some level of mastery, one will seek to refine one’s performance. At a certain point, one comes to understand that often (not always) it makes more economic sense to draw customers/women into one’s own selection funnel based on their seeking desires, rather than exclusively one’s own desires… which will then begin to lead to self-selection, and therefore increased efficiency (and profitability).
From there, one can begin to become more highly selective in one’s choices.
I suppose this is fairly advanced (it took me years to internalize). For those of you not there yet, no problem. For now, just know that it exists, and that there will come a day when all your effort cold approaching will yield you the potential to transmute your expenditure of energy into something else entirely. The experience of humiliating cold approaches is definitely worth the effort, in the long run.
I suspect this doesn’t jive with the experiences of many men new to these concepts, and that’s absolutely fine. I just want all of you starting out to have a more expansive vision for your long-term future than merely one of endlessly approaching girls in bars–that’s part of the process, not the end goal (unless that’s your desired end goal). There is much more to life than only that.
Incidentally, this applies to life in general, not just game.
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Heh, one of the opinion openers I used to do was a story about a girl not being into a guy just because he wouldn’t approach/open her. I would always end with the faux confusion like “does that make sense? Would *you* do that?!” etc. Overwhelmingly the women in the group would agree with the hypothetical girl while the guys would be confused (and of course, would de facto learn a bit about female attraction).
Armchair philosophy will always fail in comparison to field tested truths.
Also, as a side note…. Back when I was starting out learning game and doing tons of opinion openers, distilled versions of game concepts like the confidence/approach anxiety one above ironically made the best ones.
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I like this Gen. Patton’s quote.
“A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.”
Better to use any opener on any girl you are attracted to than to wait for the perfect opener for the perfect girl.
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“Approaching women is Beta” comes close to “all sex is rape” on the long, long list of Stupidest Most Illogical Feminist Ideas Ever.
The very idea of humanity existing in its biological form is somehow wrong to them. Anything that smacks of “men are aggressors, women are passive” needs to be shot down by these fools.
Then you wonder why we have a younger generation of mousy Herb guys and brassy, tattooed harridans running around. This might be the only time in history looking at thirtysomething women beats looking at twentysomethings.
But I digress. I’ve been approached by women. Happened a lot lot at college. There was one particularly memorable time when I was asked out, out of the blue at work, by a model. Each time I found these women to be dysfunctional — they needed men around all the time. Which was fine for a while, until the game playing and weirdness and lies started.
And there’s the irony: the only guys who can probably handle women who are the aggressors are the seasoned PUAs who are qualified to be aggressors themselves. I sure wasn’t ready for this at 21. Then again, looking at the former model has aged (from FB pics) maybe she did me a favor pissing me off so bad.
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“Approaching women is Beta” comes close to “all sex is rape” on the long, long list of Stupidest Most Illogical Feminist Ideas Ever.
Agreed, but “having women fall in your lap is more alpha than cold approaching” is not.
The hierarchy is this:
1. No approach. Get hot girl.
2. Approach. Get hot girl.
3. No approach. Get plain or ugly girl.
Both 1 and 2 are alpha.
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I am sometimes in the Troll state of mind too, then i bust troll game. ” hungry! Fuck! Now!” and get a few laughs and get out of it ;D IN other news…MAGIC PARKING CARS!!! Wheee!!! xD
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Care to discuss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWSLZ8nclD8
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My sexual aggressiveness knows absolutely no fucking bounds. Warm greetings from Southeast Asia.
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When a girl comes and stands/dances near you, it’s always a very positive indication that she’s interested. But in 99.9% of cases it’s still you that has to say ‘hi’ first. And having the balls to do that is alpha and a DHV. Glancing at her out of the corner of your eye hoping she’ll come over isn’t just a DLV. It’s weak and pathetic.
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This is how it’s done:
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^^^^outstanding^^^^^
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The deer is showing low value by approaching the woman and making his intentions well known. Though, the deers game was off by not having a plan to isolate the female so her friends would not judge her. Had the deer lured her further into the grove with a bag of skittles he might of been able to close without too much protest from the woman. Once the woman runs away the deer makes the mistake of chasing after her, he is lucky the woman did not pepper spray him or call the cops and accuse him of rape. Overall I give the deer a 7 for effort and a 4 for execution.
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LOL
[Heartiste: ditto.]
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Zeus just ain’t what he used to be… alas, how the mighty have fallen. :sigh:
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This deer is pretty much going super alpha!.
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Lolzlzzolzzozlozloz….spilled my tea reading your comment…thanks!
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[…] This is why there is no point logically reasoning with a man-hating troll. What purchase can be made in the warped mind of a void entity which announces, with or without conviction, that a man hitting on a woman qualifies as coercion and an admission of insecurity? It is as if the void entity has entered a parallel plane of existence where confident and assertive men sit Source: Chateau Heartiste […]
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Funny.
I was going to send this to Heartiste as a question/discussion topic if I could figure out how to ask WTF happened, but:
One of the few times I’ve had a good Idiot-Savant Moment was when I walked out the back of this stage I was performing on, saw this girl by the equipment van, walked straight to her and said, “Hey, I’m Ronin. We should hang out.”
She invited me to a party she was throwing at her place on the spot.
We banged the 3rd time we hung out, about 1 1/2 weeks later, after she ditched her temporary beta.
Afterward, she told me she had never ever had anyone in her life approach her like that.
This was pre-Mystery-Method, and I’m still not exactly sure everything I did, but ultra direct-approach sure worked in that instance.
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“shive1008” (whom you refer to as a “man-hating troll”) is actually correct. Approaching women IS a sign of lower value. Your commenter “the man who was” (above) is also correct in saying –>> “Not having to approach to get women is more alpha than having to approach”.
First of all, the word “approach” (when talking about women) is a lame word.
She’s just a woman. Not a dentist’s chair.
You “approach” a problem.
You “approach” a job prospect.
You “approach” a business deal.
You “approach” a negotiation.
But WOMEN approach YOU.
Gamers and pretend alphas are constantly trying to convince everyone that “approaching women” is a must. And any guy who believes that’s not his duty or obligation – or even a requirement – must be a loser who isn’t getting any.
Nonsense.
Walk into a bar ignoring everyone in the room and order a drink. Scotch neat. Pull out $200 or $300 and leave it in plain view on the bar and lay your car keys over it – right next to you. Exchange a few words with the bartender and then mind your own business with your polished boots, nice watch, and CASH right there in plain view. Guess who will do the “approaching”. It won’t be YOU.
There is absolutely NO NEED in the world to “approach” a woman. A man has BETTER things to pursue. Like time to enjoy a nice 16-year-old scotch.
It’s more ‘alpha’ to simply meet eyes with a chick and motion her to come over TO YOU. If she doesn’t accept your gesture , who fucking cares. You didn’t move. You’re a rock.
Guys who “approach” woman ARE chumps. Looking for some “opinion opener” and falling all over themselves to try and find a way to get her digits within 3 minutes or less.
No. Motion her to come to YOU. When she does, and if you hit it off with her, you get to enjoy reminding her periodically that SHE approached YOU first.
Jack Nicholson (in the film “As good as it gets”) doesn’t approach Helen Hunt at the bar. He’s very late for dinner and she already hates him….. but when he finally shows up and sees her at the bar (already talking to another younger and better looking guy who “approached” her) he merely motions her to come to HIM. That’s alpha. That’s manly.
Picture a guy running after his dog…. and then picture another one who gets the dog to run over with a single whistle or a simple clearing of his throat. Which action demonstrates lower value???
“approaching” woman demonstrates lower value for Men and has the unfortunate side effect of elevating a woman’s value to the point where most women today are acting they way they do because these “chumps” are constantly “approaching” them. Especially in HER mind. You can be MUCH higher value, and the moment you approach her… her already inflated view of herself goes right into orbit before you’ve even opened your mouth. And unless you nail the interaction perfectly (or she knows you’re some celebrity), you’ve just lowered yourself to walking into HER universe. No. It’s YOUR universe and she should be glad you are taking a moment to invite her into it.
Any other belief system is a demonstration of lower value.
Great blog. Excellent articles. But this is where you are way off the mark.
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Great advice for getting your cash snatched and maybe keys too. Soon parted and all that.
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“Walk into a bar ignoring everyone in the room and order a drink. Scotch neat. Pull out $200 or $300 and leave it in plain view on the bar and lay your car keys over it – right next to you. Exchange a few words with the bartender and then mind your own business with your polished boots, nice watch, and CASH right there in plain view. Guess who will do the “approaching”. It won’t be YOU.”
It’ll be the two hot women who walk up, one pulling your attention while the other pockets the cash and drives off in your car.
More seriously, it’s a good plan if you don’t mind weeding out the golddiggers.
[Heartiste: Weeding out golddiggers is my specialty. Not because I can’t pay for their whims, but because the best kind of feminine love is the kind that goes soul-deep, and awakens with a heavenly chorus every time it sees you.]
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Well as long as we’re nitpicking, demonstrating value to get women is clearly beta. If you go to the bar you should order a light beer and pay with coins, not flaunt your money or car keys to get attention. Trying to get attention is so beta.
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The mere fact that women aren’t coming to your house and you have to go to a bar to meet women is so beta.
[Heartiste: lol]
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I have a line of 8’s and 9’s running out of my moms basement. they give me food and weed and money and all I have to do is threaten them with a decon Jones head slap in return… ahh the life off an alpha
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that’s kid stuff. BREATHING is beta.
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Why even motion to her to come over? You shouldn’t have to do anything. Women have such keen awareness of a situation and are can read other people’s minds like a book she’ll just logically decide she is attracted to all that inner confidence you have. Your inner confidence is so on display when you walk by she’ll cream her panties.
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dude, you are either trying to frame a prostitute/call-girl/escort or a below 5 or an above 5 with significant mental ( can be temporary mental impairment caused by alcohol/drug consumption) and/or esteem issues. A normal above 5-6 with decent self esteem who is not significantly trashed that responds to your above described scenario and you are not in the 0.0001% male population is non-existent. Never knew there was a male version of chronic hamster spinnage. smh
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I’m a regular joe living in the city but when I put my confidence on display in a picture and then send it out to twitter…I picked up 100,000 females followers. That’s how alpha I am.
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Approaching a girl is DLV? In what world do you live in?
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Its simply a technical truth that pursuing women, directly or indirectly, is not as alpha (and therefore more beta) than pursuing some other goal,
[Heartiste: Bronies pursue “some other goal” almost exclusively. Are they alpha?
ps get off this board, trollbreath!]
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Exactly right. Pursuing women is the dumbest waste of time and a stifling, worthless expenditure of male vitality.
[Heartiste: Men waste time and vitality on lots of stuff unrelated to pursuing women for sex and love. Is the stamp collector an alpha? How about the app programmer? Men of course do these things because they are pleasurable. As is pursuing women. The most pleasurable pursuit there is.]
Pursue OTHER things instead, and when you are SUCCESSFUL –> women will pursue YOU.
[I don’t see successful app programmers beating the women off with a stick.]
Anybody who knows that is not a “troll” for Christ’s sake.
[You are familiar with the either-or fallacy?]
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and when you are SUCCESSFUL –>
womengolddiggers will pursue YOU.Sure, Tom, if that’s your cuppa tea. Alpha fucks and beta bucks, dat is how dey roll…
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When did the goalpost moved?
The troll comment stated this – “Approaching women is a Demonstration of Lower Value”
It isn’t. The only reason a man would not approach any woman is because he is a pussy who shivers at the mere presence of the feminine.
Do you want what you see? Then what the f#$k are you waiting for? Christmas?
[Heartiste: Trolls like Tom are waiting for someone to tell them their cowardice is ALPHA.]
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I can’t believe you even dignified shive’s comment with a response. Approaching a woman is a DLV? What a load of shyte.
One time on approaching a girl in a club, during the convo she commented on it saying “That shows that you know what you want. I like that.”
I think that sums it up pretty good.
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In the land of spineless betas, the man that approaches is king.
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I only allow girls to be on top during sex so I don’t have to move to put my cock in them. Thrusting implies that you have to try to be inside a vagina so obviously thrusting is beta.
Seriously tho, where did all the keyboard jockeys come from suddenly? Did we get linked on some kind of feminist brony forum?
[Heartiste: lol. It’s all part of the troll kingdom masta plan to flood briskly honest internet forums with nonsensical gibberish so that people who might be otherwise enlightened miss the 800 pound reality in their line of sight.]
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“Same reason that guys on here who don’t really sarge but still have been on ASF for a while and have good knowledge will get all pissy at the guys who really sarge. They’ve developed a SELF IMAGE that they are good with women, which they FOSTER and NURTURE through this internet chat board by spreading good KNOWLEDGE, despite their own lack of EXPERIENCE. So when guys question them or post something that contrats their theoretical knowledge, they get all pissed off and grumpy and whiny, because what they are reading is DISTURBING the internet-based system that makes them feel god with women, and therefore about themselves.” –
Tyler Durden, Pg. 895, The Mystery Method Collaboration
Almost finished it by the way.
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The apparent paradox is resolved if we clearly define alpha as any behavior that allows you to effectively and efficiently navigate human society to achieve your prime directive as a male.
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I get lots of girls literally throwing themselves at me anytime I go to a club. Some are hot, some aren’t. I go out to dance and yes I do enjoy the attention, but I always rebuff it because I’m married and not interested in cheating. I will confirm that, as has been pointed out previously on this blog, girls who approach and then are denied often reply with considerable indignation and aggressive groping that would get any man kicked out. It doesn’t help when they’re very drunk. Usually I will push them away but if they persist I abscond to a different part of the club as I don’t want to get accused of roughing up a girl, a capital offense in the United States of Misandry.
Anyway the post may sound like bragging and certainly it is, but there is a constructive message as well. If you are fit and somewhat attractive you may be able to pick up girls by learning to dance and dress well rather than by employing verbal approach oriented strategies. If I wasn’t a faithful type of guy I would also probably work on some basic game strategies to maximize the number of girls that I could transition from dancefloor to bedroom (or club stairwell). Though I have to say from my bachelor days more than a decade ago, they are much less likely to flake once they have kissed you and fooled around on the dancefloor. At that point you should be good so long as you are not running offensive anti-game.
This is a limited strategy as it won’t help you pick-up girls in the supermarket, but it can work for girls in your social circle so long as you are young enough that your social circle sometimes makes its way to a club or a party with dancing.
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[…] is the mirror image of the MGTOW false dichotomy fallacy (“If you hit on women, you are a beta because you have to put in effort to meet them.”) […]
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